Interview with Harry Foster

Interview with Harry Foster

Harold Gordon Foster (known as Harry) tells of his childhood, passing the eleven plus exam and his enjoyment of learning, and the need for him to earn money for his family rather than going to grammar school. He first worked for CL Equipments, assembling electrical fuses, and later on LMS railway dining cars for the British Hotels and Restaurants Association.
Harry volunteered for the Royal Air Force and worked first as an observer, and then as a navigator in 76 Squadron Bomber Command. He talks of aircraft he flew on – the Anson, the Whitley, and the Halifax – of becoming an officer based at Heslington Hall, Yorkshire, and of being awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal. He mentions operations over Germany, reflects on the comradeship of aircrews, and describes various operations where aircraft malfunctioned, one where he lost an eye. He describes the pressurised and technical work of the navigator in the air.
Harry ends by recounting his attendance at Wednesbury County Commercial College after the war, and his choice not to marry until after the war due to the risks of his job.

2016-08-21

00:54:00 audio recording

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AFosterHG160821

HF: You’ve got the name wrong, it’s not Harry Harold it’s –
DB: Ha – I said, oh I thought [laughs]. Let’s start that again then shall we? Right –
HF: My name is Harold –
DB: Harold Gordon [emphasis] –
HF: Harold Gordon Foster is my name.
DB: Yeah. Known as Harry [laughs].
HF: No, nobody knows me as anything else but Harry.
DB: Yeah, so you can tell us that.
HF: AKA Harry.
DB: Right, okay we’ll start again then, alright?
HF: Mhm.
DB: Right. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] So, did you want to tell me about your, about how you were born above the pub? That might start you off.
HF: How I was, how I was – [Tape is stopped and restarted.] The prime minister [unclear – maybe resigning?] but nevertheless you had to do what was done in the time, you know that was how things were. But I mean my first wages I think were nine and sixpence I think, and I had sixpence and my mother had nine bob [laughs]. And that’s how the times were, you know, ‘hurry up you and get leaving school and get some money earned’ you know [laughs] just like that. And, but of course it was the same for everybody, things were entirely different to what they are now, I mean the, they get paid to do nothing [emphasis] now and the people take advantage of it. But that was how it was at the time. And I was going through the usual, ordinary elementary exams. I did pretty well in the exams, I passed highly on the eleven plus which was a major point, but it’s the same old story, my father was out of work and it was a case of a ‘shoulder to the wheel Harry,’ or Harold, so I had to muck in and instead of doing something for my future [laughs] I had to do something for the present. Which is the way things were and everybody accepted it. So, so we had, we had some good friends, you know, if one of your friends who owned the football couldn’t come out one day when we were going to play and it was his ball and we went and called for Charlie and ‘he’s not coming out today’ his mother said [laughs] and well, ‘could his ball come out?’ you know [laughs], and it was a bit touch and go like that. But we made most of our games ourselves. Chick [?] was the very young ones, and we developed one or two different ones, and, it, we didn’t know it was tough because we didn’t know any different. But I did very well in the eleven plus, but I couldn’t take advantage of it because the situation in the country and at home, so I had to knuckle in and, and turn my penny over. But it was, happened in a large percent of the country I think, but you just had to do what you had to do and just, that’s what you did. But I mean it didn’t mean quite so much to us, it was all part of the day, you know, we didn’t know what grown-ups and big kids were doing and so on and so forth, but we enjoyed ourselves. And I think friendships lasted forever if you know what I mean, and you never dumped anybody and you never got dumped yourself. So we just rolled along with the way of the times and – [Tape is stopped and restarted.] The first job I had was CL Equipments, and they made fuses, the little fuses with the glass bit in the middle and two metal ends. And we would assemble these from the various parts, and that was my wages, nine and something. So, from that start I just went with the crowd, you couldn’t do anything else. But the times were like that, it wasn’t, it wasn’t of your making, I mean, I could have gone to either a school with the eleven plus exam results that I got, but no go, so I had to do what a lot of other kids do, find a job, and that was the first job I had, was this electrical firm [laughs] making – and nine and something I think, oh gosh, and I know I had about nine pence or sixpence or nine pence and my mother had nine bob or something like that [laughs]. But I mean, that was the times, it wasn’t just me it was everyone who’s affected in that, which was sad really because I did have a yearn [?] for learning, and I did bit of learning off my own back more or less by what I read [emphasis] and I got on quite well with that. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] I don’t think, I don’t know what interfered with it but of course the war came along. I was called up at seventeen, well it was my number, they were calling up the seventeen year olds and the only way out of it was to volunteer for, oh what was it now? I know it was something to do with the, oh dear, there were two things anyhow. So I took one of these and I worked at it, and I got on with it and from there I progressed. I did a lot of reading, really a lot of it was what I wanted to read anyhow because I was a keen lad, I was keen to get on, and there weren’t all that many people about that would help or could [emphasis] help. But, so you were left with your own, your own troubles like everyone else. But I, I more or less educated myself actually after that. But my eleven plusses I passed to go to the grammar school or the secondary school, or there was another one, but I couldn’t go. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Training in the Air Force, well, I volunteered for the Air Force when my number was coming up to be called up. In fact they were calling my birthday, seventeen they were calling them up, and I was on the list, they’d have called any minute. And I, ‘oh that’s not for me,’ says ‘the only people that are not allowed to do it are somebody who is in particular labour’ or so on and so forth, so I kitted on a bit [?], and I got out of that by volunteering for something that didn’t anyhow but I knew they wanted me to say it [laughs]. It’s a way out when you’re on your, on your own sort of thing. But it was hard work [emphasis], I mean they weren’t geared up for learning in any shape of form, you had to sort of get a job and then what you picked up was what you learned. But, I got on quite well. But I never stopped itching to get on a bit, and so I was always, always reading, and I was always listening [emphasis] and I didn’t go out to play, or to play football or anything like that so much as the other people. I did do [emphasis] them, but I mean you can’t shut yourself up for anything, it’s, it’s not on. But from there I got various jobs. I worked for a while on the LMS [?] railway. I had a friend who was a, assistant chef on the dining cars, so I said how I liked it to him. He says ‘well, why don’t you write up and say you’re keen and interested and your friend was, you know, at work,’ you know, and that was, it was successful, I got accepted via the British Hotels and Restaurants Association [laughs] and so I followed that line. I travelled a bit, as I say I was on the dining cars, but that was only a temporary thing, you know. But to give you the experience nevertheless, but I stayed with them quite a while, and to be honest I forget what I did after that, [laughs] long time ago. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] On the aircrew I was the navigator. I was actually an observer, and that was before the heavier aircraft. And when the heavier aircraft came along, it opened up work for a bigger crew, so instead of having a pilot and a navigator, which navigator did damn near everything ‘cause you did the wireless and you did this that and the other, and the other fella drive the car if you know what I mean. But, it was alright, it was good, good fun. And you met a lot of people, and you made a bob or two in tips [laughs]. It was only meagre but, ‘cause a dining car cheap and the waiters had all the tips, it was all pooled but my pool wasn’t very big [laughs] and I don’t know what I did after that. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Well the aircraft I forgot half of them. But the one I do remember was in 76 Squadron, and that was in Bomber Command, and our CO was, ooh the famous man, oh I had it a moment ago, very, very well known man in flying. But he was our CO of 76 Squadron at that stage. I mean he hadn’t flown higher than that, sort of thing, but he did go very high. But it he was a nice man, and as long as you, you were seen to be doing your work, or at least trying when you were on studies, you were alright with him, but he soon clamped down on you if he could see that you were not pulling your weight, you know. You’re there to learn, if you want to mess about on it you might as well not be there. But, oh the aircraft I forget now but there was so many. Oh, the old Anson, the old Avro Anson, that was the one with the wind up undercarriage, you had to wind it [laughs], wind it up and down, hundred-and-thirty turns. It was alright when you were, when you were sort of unladen and lighter and, when you’ve got a heavy load you know it was a bit of a puff. But these are the things that you have to go through in all sorts of trades, aren’t they? But, I’m trying to think of the bloody – very well known man at the time, very well know, and I was in his squadron first, 76 Squadron, but he was a great man. You’d know his name if I mentioned it. But we were still youngsters really. But, I was, I was what they called an observer [emphasis] in those days, because they had, the biggest aircraft was the Whitley I think, a twin engine job, a flying coffin sort of thing, flew with its nose down like that [laughs]. Just a glimmer of that. But it was, it was a job in those days to spend a penny [laughs] if you’re in the air, because you had, you’ve got no heating in the aeroplanes, there was an elsan down at the tail of the aircraft, and when you’ve got about four or five different layers of clothing on [laughs] it’s not easy to go for a pee [laughs]. These are the things that come along. I wish I could think of – I had his name. But he was a good fellow, oh he was known the world over. Mmm, it might come as we talk. But I enjoyed every bit of it, and they, I was telling you I was an observer then, and there was only one other bloke in the plane and that was the driver you know, and I did the rest, which means I manned the WT system and, and all this, that and the other. I did the bomb aiming and dropping and all the other jobs on the aircraft I did [laughs], while he [?] flew the aircraft. I even told him what to do, ‘cause I was the navigator you see, and I was the only one who could work all the jiggery-pokery out. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] I flew in the bigger plane, in the Halifax, that’s them on the wall. I’ve got the Halifax book there, which if you’d like to borrow it any time you may do so, at your like [?], ‘cause I’m very fond of that book. But, I did lose it once where I lent it to somebody and he forgot on purpose I think [laughs], he was hoping it would be forgotten, and, but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the crew I had there you know, ‘cause in the bigger aircraft that we flew, you know, like the Halifax, there were seven in the crew and I was still the navigator, and I still had to tell the pilot everything he had to do, ‘cause it was only me who knew the way [laughs]. But when I first went in I did all the other jobs as well as navigation, and the pilot was the pilot [laughs]. Yeah, but I didn’t mind it, it was good learning, it kept you to it and gave you an idea of what the other people’s jobs, and if anything happened to one of them you could usually help in some way or another you know, but it was a good, it was a good [unclear] up really, because they were all, nobody was any different to anyone else there, they were all there for the same purpose and we had a good time and, although we didn’t get much money like [laughs]. We could – and I got up and volunteered, I got out right on the edge of being called, and they said ‘you’ve got to volunteer for either a so-and-so or a so-and-so and one was in the navy, special officer something in the navy, and the other one was air cadet, so I took the air cadet and got out of the other, because once they get their hands on they can put you anywhere. I mean you can be emptying the dustbins and all sorts of jobs if you, but I learnt very early on [laughs] and I managed it quite well really. Who to go to for what [laughs]. It was good learning practice. Hmm, yeah. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] We had a bomber aimer from Newcastle on Tyne, Sandy he was called, ‘cause his name was Alexander and they called him Sandy [laughs] Sandy [emphasis]. Er, what was the actual question? [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Well, you weren’t with your crew all the time you know, until you got onto the real work of operating and then you’re with your crew forever. But they wanted you to mix a bit and learn other people’s jobs ‘cause you’d be putting your life in their hands same as they would be in yours, and, so we found it a bit strange really at first, because we had two members of the crew were officers and all the rest were sergeants. And it was funny, they all went out in a seven, they didn’t use the mess very much they’d rather go out with the rest of the crew, but they had the mess bill to pay [laughs]. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] I would, I got my commission, very difficult but I made it, so I was an officer in the end. But I was at a place called Heslington Hall –
DB: Mm.
HF: Which is a big country manor in York and it is now connected with the Yorkshire education people, so it’s no longer what it was doing when I was there. But it was a beautiful old house, beautiful. It had double and three, double and three house, you know, so you could go in one way and come out another, or go in and come out the same way [laughs]. But it was a lovely old house, and all the boards and decorations things like that, they were all screened, all boarded up with cheap piece board stuff, and it’s, so we didn’t get the full value of it, but it was in the air, you know, and when I was an officer there we had the privilege of going, ‘cause we all lived out there, we had the privilege of going back into the, into the [pause] where we did our learning, and go to the bar which you managed yourself when you went in [laughs], and it went on your mess bill [laughs]. So we would go in midnight if you wanted to, but it was very strict, it was [unclear]. But that was a lovely old house, Heslington Hall. [Tape stops and restarts]. – with the wing coming out of it. They were smaller aircraft, and there was a pilot and [unclear] and that’s all. [Unclear] was the WT wireless operator and this, that and the other [laughs], it was when you got onto the bigger aircraft that there was seven in a crew, or five in a crew depending on which aeroplane you flew. But it was, it was very good, it was a good learning curve for anyone to be in. We were taught in the right way, you know, and we knew what was right and we knew what was wrong, and God help us [laughs] if you got in the wrong one [?]. But, yeah, I finished up there as a matter of fact, ‘cause when I lost my eye [laughs] I was twenty-seven feet up in the sky in an aeroplane [?] [unclear]. And blood coming from my flipping [?] eye and one thing or another, so [unclear]. And, well we only had three engines, instead of four, which is alright with some aircrafts not with others, some of them can maintain height and even climb a bit on three engines, but others, we would lose height ordinary flying gradually [laughs]. It was a good, a good part of my life that, I often look back to it. All the flyers [?] seemed to be the same, we were all doing the same job, I mean you could have, you could have, you could have one officer in the crew and he would be telling the pilot what to do and this, that and the other, but he couldn’t do it officially, but he was just, it was just a rank for him, he would have to work on something else I think, but there was a lot of that done. I did, I think it was, it was either, it was either nineteen or twenty, that was another nineteen or twenty in my life [laughs]. Yes, and ‘cause all of our operations was over Germany of course, yes and it was tough [?] on that day when you went into the debriefing room after you’d come back from a flight, as everybody comes in their reports gets [unclear], and do the debriefing ‘cause you’ve all had to report your own, your own trip verbally [emphasis] as well as on paper, but all the information they get from these things are invaluable [emphasis] really. But I liked where I was in York, Yorkshire area, Yorkshire county. Met some very nice people, and we lived out as officers. Got no officers accommodation so anybody who was an officer lived out, ‘cause you got your living out allowance. And you got your batting [?] allowance ‘cause you haven’t got a batman [?]. That’s if you were commissioned of course, the sergeants and whatever didn’t get that, if you’re commissioned [unclear]. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] And so you had to earn it. Damn near twelve months I was in hospital. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Yes I got a DFM. I was a sergeant when I got it. If I’d been an officer it would have been a DFC, same value, but there was a damn sight [laughs] a damn sight more DFMs than there were DFCs. Which I really, I really don’t agree with. It’s the deeds that’s the thing, it’s not who you are and what your daddy does, it’s totally wrong in my – it’s wrong giving a cross to a commissioned man and only a medal to a sergeant for the same thing, exactly. We, never had anybody mind about it. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] I don’t know, I don’t know. I had a lot of information about me which I didn’t know they had [laughs] and that’s how I got mine, but not for one deed, but of course I ended really losing my eye in the war, but then again it [unclear] what’s good for one is good for the other. Lot of unfairness about it, and it, not enough humanity in it, you know. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Yes, well, during the day when you’re flying at night you’ve got lots of things to do. In the aircraft check that everything that you handle [unclear] was okay, although it’s been done before [laughs] they don’t take any chances with, with [unclear] you know. But it’s just, it’s just a routine that you go through. You have each section, that’s each man in the aircraft, his section will have the same as all the others but more in line with their job as well as the, the thing as a whole. So it’s sort of a two part thing if you know what I mean. But it’s done, it’s not done all that often. But, excuse me. But, it was a sad place to be when you’ve come back from ops and you’re in the room, in the map room, and you look at the big board which has got all the names [unclear] you got a big board of all the aircraft and that, and a buzz would go round it ‘oh so-and-so hasn’t returned yet,’ and, well there’s more than one reason for not returning, I mean it’s most peculiar. We had [laughs] we had a man [unclear] not far from you [?], who had a peculiar thing happen. One of the undercarriage wheels, ‘cause they were all independently a unit if you know what I mean. Well one of the undercarriage wheels came down, which it shouldn’t, it’s locked there permanent as long as you put it there. But this damn thing came down, and we tried to retrieve it and the bugger wouldn’t come back [laughs]. So I mean, it was no, no, saying ‘well, it’s happened, don’t matter what you say about it,’ and I was on the job there and [laughs] so funny things do happen. ‘Cause we had, we had an occasion where we had a wing tip landing as we used to call them, ‘cause you get the slope on the aircraft, you don’t fly flat you fly like a, what line, like a permanent line, you don’t sort of lose it on the heights so much, but it’s funny that you remember some of these things and you don’t others. But no, this happening that I was going to tell you about, this man who had this accident the same thing had happened to us but we weren’t so badly affected. But one undercarriage wheel wouldn’t operate and the other one was no good using anything with that, and the best you could do was a wing end landing as we called them, but we had one that we had to do a wheel end landing in, and the unfortunate part about it was that we had a crate of incendiary bombs in the fuselage bomb bays that we couldn’t get rid of. It wouldn’t go, we tried to release it by hand and it wouldn’t go, and so [laughs] ‘what do we do here?’ Well there ain’t much you can do [laughs], but we did a wing tip landing on that, and it’s a good job we did because we had a crate of incendiaries onboard and if we’d have done ordinary, ordinary landing, crash landing the whole bloody thing would have [laughs]would have gone up. So I mean you’re actually done [unclear] a damn good [unclear]. But funny things happen. But they were a great place to be when you were a member of a crew when you were on that job, ‘cause really the observer or the navigator is, has more to do than anybody else onboard, but the pilot’s always given the, the honours. But not thinking about that, we never did. But it is a fact when you look at it. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Cheshire was, it was Cheshire or somebody else like him and I don’t know which, that was our squadron commander at one time. Not squadron commander, our aerodrome commander, but [unclear] with a fellow like Cheshire, he liked to get where the action is. And he was always at the scene as it were, rather than sitting in the office [laughs] but still, I mean that’s the idea of things, you’re all mates together, and – [Tape is stopped and restarted.] When I came out, I came out a few times and went back in again. When I was, I was in for about twelve months, and during that time I came out, ooh I only came out twice. But it was only for a break, and there was a point in my treatment that they could leave and pick up again, you know, quite easily. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] No, no it’s not, it’s not worth it really, ‘cause I found, and I lived in the midlands, and were we always in Yorkshire, and you go all [?] the darn way to the midlands you spending one day getting home and one day getting back, no I mean it’s [unclear] but you can’t help where you live and where the aerodrome is, ‘cause most of the aerodromes were on the eastern coast ‘cause that’s nearest to the targets. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] How do you find, you think about it. How do you find the speed of an aircraft? I mean if you’re in a motorcar you’ve got a wheel, you’ve got the circumference of the wheel and you can work out your speed from that. But in an aircraft you can’t, you’ve got nothing to help you at all. And really to get a, if I wanted to get a fix I’ve got to first of all get a position line and draw on my map. So in my air plot [?] on my map I had two points running at the same time. I had always kept my air plot [?] going, and if anything serious happened you could always refer right back to the beginning and work back through it, but that doesn’t happen very often. But it, what was question actually? [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Navigation is the thing that, you wonder where you can get it from. How do you get the speed of an aircraft? I mean you haven’t got a wheel to tell you, you’ve got to find your own speed. You can look at the clock all you like, all the set of clocks and they give you different numbers, but they’re probably all meaning the same thing, but I mean it’s just, it’s just one of those things, its difficult [emphasis], navigation in aircraft. ‘Cause you’ve only got, you’ve only got air pressure to work on, when you’ve got to work all your instruments back to – how do you work back from, the only thing you can do it with is pressure, and that’s the only thing you can work back from. And how do you get from [laughs] speed in the air. Well that was my job. If you’re in an aeroplane, you’re flying along, and you want to get a, you want to get a fix of where you are. And then you have to get a position line from something else, and then you put that on your map, and then you have to then get another point quite a way away that fits in with your airspaces and that, to give you a cross, and then of course you, you’ve got the time lapse between taking the first line and the second line [laughs] before you can – so you’re, you’re working like a demon ‘cause the next thing you gotta do is work out what’s left of the journey and you’ve got to time yourself, allow yourself so long before you can [unclear] you gotta find. So you, you have to get one position line and then you’ve got to find another [emphasis] position line that crosses it quite well, and then you’ve got to transfer that one line by the amount of time it took you to get to the second line before you get a fix, you gotta [laughs] so there’s a lot in it. So, then you’ve got to work out a new course because you’re lost some of the plan that you’ve got, so that’s what navigation is about. It’s check and double check all the time. And then a lot of these things you’ve got to put a time on and look ahead, and you’ve got to work to that time as well. Now if you’ve got to work to that time, you’ve used a lot of figures in the meantime so you’ve got to [laughs] lot of transferring before you could get your thing, then you’ve got to in your mind or on the work, you’ve got to guesstimate or work out position you’re gonna be, and you sort of gotta get yourself your own position affected by the wind and this, that and the other, and when you’ve got that, which is a series of position lines that you might have to move, then you’ve got to work out, well it will be a new position line anyhow, and your aircraft [unclear] all over the place, sometimes it’s moving things, sometimes it’s stationary things, but I mean you’ve always got to look ahead [emphasis] and in your working you’ve got to work so much and allow [emphasis] that time, so you put yourself on the spot so [laughs] if you get one of them wrong, you’re in the fertiliser [laughs] and you’ve got to start all over again. Deary me. Oh it’s really, it’s really a man that’s got a take a lot disappointment and just put it in the back of your mind, forget it. And then you gotta find, you gotta make plan altogether ‘cause you’ll be on a different plan that you started on because you’re going off from your target all the while, so what you’ve got to take into consideration there is that all your one lot of work is done here and all your other work that your working at is done over there somewhere [laughs]. It really is, it’s a real time tester because you’ve got to put yourself on the block, because you’ve got to make your own time, and that’s, like a guess work, until you’ve gone through this process, and you can get it wrong and have to do all the whole lot again, and then you’re in a different place [laughs]. So it’s a, it’s a frustrating job navigating. But it’s very interesting. But of course on, in the wartime its’ very difficult because you can’t use WT and wireless because the enemy can pick up the, that wavelength as soon as, well they’re looking out for this sort of thing with their machinery and, so you’re all the while on the go, kept on your toes, it’s very frustrating to try and make a time, and a lot of it is a time that you’ve set yourself to do, and if you don’t achieve the time that you’ve set yourself to do then all [emphasis] that work [unclear] and you’re going farther off course. Oh it’s a heck of a job. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] After the war, ooh what did I do after the – I went to Wednesbury County Commercial College for six months. Really it was to give us an idea of what the, what the works in this [unclear] were making and doing and what everybody was doing, and you’ve got to try to help yourself and help them, so it’s all in the air, it’s all very interesting research work and one thing and another, but the things you have to do to find it out, you’ve always got to be looking ahead [emphasis] if you know what I mean. So if you look ahead and find out where you’ll be in so much time and use the new wings [?] that you’ve find from your previous navigation officer’s point, then you’re still working on figures that are not dead certain to be right, ‘cause it’s the same weather conditions might be operating all the way to where you’re going, which they don’t do [emphasis] all sorts of things happen. ‘Cause you got your magnetic forces, and north poles and this, that and the other and all this sort of things. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] I can’t remember now, I remember, I remember going, I was on leave, I remember going to a dance in my uniform ‘cause I mean that’s all you were wearing anyhow. Now, now it’s all new stuff. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Yes, [unclear] during wartime. I didn’t think it was fair. It’s signing over a death warrant if you’re not careful. Well I mean not your fault and not anybody else’s fault. That’s how it is at that time. I wouldn’t get married during the war, I had a very nice young lady at home, and I wouldn’t get married. I proposed to her and she accepted, and, anyhow, I didn’t go through with it. I didn’t think to bring your new wife into the world in a wartime, I mean you’ll be married one day and dead the next if you know what I mean. So I left all the marriage stuff till I got home, and I don’t know how it went [?] for that [laughs] oh dear, dear. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Yeah, yeah [unclear]. Hmm, yes [pause]. [Tape is stopped and restarted.] Move here, into this place here? Ooh I don’t know, into this particular place, probably a couple of years. Maybe Somewhere else before, you know. I [unclear] on Tuesday we go to another place [unclear]. Hmm, but I have to rely on my Nellie over there, ‘cause I can’t, my powered wheelchair, I drive myself in that. But I mean, I couldn’t walk across this floor without some aid of some sort. I’m alright walking down alongside a thing but to come at a space where there’s nothing, no. But –