Interview with Bill Leckie.


Interview with Bill Leckie.


Bill Leckie Bill was born in Glasgow but moved to the countryside as his father suffered from bronchitis. Initially working as a cinema projectionist, Bill joined the Royal Air Force at the age of eighteen, enlisting at St John’s Wood in London as a trainee pilot. Bill undertook basic training at RAF Babbacombe in Devon before being sent overseas to Halifax, Canada. He was then sent onwards to Pensacola for flying training, where his flying training included Stearmans. Bill found aerobatics hard and thought he would prefer flying the flying boats. He flew Catalinas, which he describes as sluggish and slow to respond to control inputs. Bill was then sent back to Harrogate in the United Kingdom waiting for a posting, expecting to be sent to fly flying boats as part of Coastal Command. Instead he was sent to Bomber Command at RAF Little Rissington where he trained on Oxfords before being sent to an operational training unit at RAF Lossiemouth. There he flew Whitleys and Wellingtons. Bill was then posted to 77 Squadron in Harrogate to fly the Halifaxes. With his Scottish crew, he took part in a handful of operations from RAF Elvington and RAF Full Sutton. Later, Bill was flown to Cairo via Gibraltar to join 216 Squadron. Bill was also stationed at Brindisi in Italy, flying the Halifax Mk2 as part of a ‘special duties’ squadron dropping supplies and agents, mainly in the Balkans. He took part in dropping agents sent to recover the Nazi’s looted art works. After the war, Bill returned to his job as a cinema projectionist and then later joined Hoover, working in production. Later, Bill moved to Ireland and flew with the airline Aer Lingus, where he flew several types, including the Douglas DC-3 pilot and Vickers Viscount. Before his retirement, Bill was flying some of the first Boeing 737 jet airliners in Europe, having been trained in the United States.





00:39:32 audio recording


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AM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery and the interviewee is Mr Bill Leckie, Flight Lieutenant Bill Leckie or Captain Bill Leckie. The interview is taking place at Bill’s lovely home in Troon. Bill, good afternoon.
BL: Good afternoon, Monty.
AM: Bill, tell me just a little bit about your family background and where you lived prior to joining the Royal Air Force.
BL: Well, to go back to where I was started living. That was Glasgow. I was born in Glasgow. I lived there for about seven years and then my father, he suffered with bronchitis. He had been a heavy smoker and that’s his problem. It was his problem, and he was told he would have to get away from the city so he got a transfer to the more or less the country which was fine because he was a country born himself and brought up in the country, and same with my mother. They were both country people so they were quite happy and there was, he got a place with a bit of ground attached to it which he never really managed to make it, you know [pause] you know, a living from. But he got some a poultry farm he ought to expand it in to but it never took place. So, I was brought up on that basis in the country, and then that was fine. And when I was, oh what would I be now? I think I would be what, eighteen when I joined the Air Force. I did want to join as a boy service but my mother and dad wouldn’t agree to it, and so I had to wait until the war came along and I was called up.
AM: Right.
BL: And I spent five years in the Air Force.
AM: So, when, when you were called up where did you go for your, for your basic training?
BL: That was mainly [pause] I’ll get the name in a minute. Babbacombe.
AM: Babbacombe. Right.
BL: Yeah, Number 1 ITW. Babbacombe.
AM: Right. By the sea.
BL: By the sea.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s where I did my ITW as they called it.
AM: Right. So —
BL: I was called up and I went to St John’s Wood in London. That was my first full time encounter with the Service as such. From being called up and going along and signing in and being asked what I wanted to do, that was about I think about three months before I finally went to, well I went to St John’s Wood first of all.
AM: Right.
BL: As a reception. And from St John’s Wood I went down to Babbacombe to do my ITW.
AM: Right. And what was that like?
BL: That was fine. That was good. Quite, fairly intensive, but I don’t think we were, we were too badly done by.
AM: Right [laughs] and did you know at that stage that you were going to undertake pilot training?
BL: I knew at that stage. Right from the beginning.
AM: Right.
BL: Because that’s what I asked to be, you know at the initial call up. They said, ‘Oh, what would you like to be?’ And I said, ‘A pilot.’ They sat reading my papers and fortunately enough my name must have come out of the hat. I don’t know.
AM: Right. I mean did you do any specific tests to assess whether you were better as a pilot or as something else then?
BL: No. No.
AM: Right.
BL: No. I went straight on to the pilot course.
AM: Right. So when you finished your square bashing what happened then?
BL: Oh. What did we do after that? Oh, yes. We rolled up to, oh what was the place? The aircrew centre at, near Manchester.
AM: Right.
BL: And I spent, I expected to spend quite some time there. Instead all I’d spent was three days and I was put on a, you know, what would you call it? A group, and we were told we were going overseas.
AM: Right.
BL: And simply because they came up to, to Greenock, I mean I recognised the place. I knew where I was, but I was just when we got off the train and then straight on board the ship, you know.
AM: Right.
BL: The train ran out on to the jetty where the ship was moored.
AM: Right.
BL: And that was me on my way across the water there over to Canada. We arrived in Halifax.
AM: Right. And was the, was the sea crossing uneventful?
BL: Uneventful.
AM: Right. Thank goodness for that.
BL: Yeah. We had a fast ship and we had another ship which kept us company.
AM: Right.
BL: It wasn’t, you know a Navy ship or anything like that. A ship that had been converted into I think, what did they call them?
AM: A troopship.
BL: Yeah. A troopship. Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: I think so. Yeah. Well, the first ship and then another ship. I don’t know what the other ship was carrying but I think it was a troop ship as well.
AM: Right.
BL: And we had this ship escorting us.
AM: Right.
BL: And we eventually finished up in Halifax. We got on the train in Halifax and that took us down to Detroit. We went to Detroit from there, and we spent what you might say initial training in Detroit, probably part of it, and when we finished our time in Detroit which was a kind of square bashing effort we moved down to Pensacola.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s where we started to do our flying properly. We did a few trips in Detroit so we did on a, it was an old biplane to begin with and then we got a slightly newer Stearman. But anyway down to Pensacola and there we flew the old MP1 as it was called which was an aircraft that the American Navy had built themselves. They built aircraft during the war, but the original aircraft, and then we got off them on to more modern Stearmans and finished our flying then.
AM: And how did you find the flying training? Was it a challenge or did you find it fairly straightforward? Or —
BL: Oh, no. Well, to me it was a challenge. I had to keep myself, you know [pause] I never found it easy. No. No. No.
AM: What was the element you found hardest? Was it instruments or aerobatics or —
BL: Aerobatics.
AM: Right.
BL: Aerobatics. I don’t think I could have been a, you know, a fighter pilot. I don’t think so.
AM: Right.
BL: So, I got what I wanted. The big aircraft. And that’s what I got. I actually didn’t. I mean, I had, when I was chosen to go on to the Flying Boats that was what I had in my mind and I thought I’d got them but no.
AM: But you did some Catalina flying in America.
BL: Oh, yes. That’s right.
AM: Tell me a wee bit about that. What that was like?
BL: It was just all training. There was never any, you know actual what you might say offensive work but it was all these long trips training. I think that the longest trip we did, in my mind anyway was the twelve hour trip.
AM: Oh gosh.
BL: And they were just in a sense letting you see what it was like to travel [laughs] You know.
AM: And was it easy to fly? The Catalina.
BL: No. It wasn’t easy to fly. It was a very sluggish aircraft.
AM: Right.
BL: If you wanted to make a left or a right hand turn you had to think about it, you know quite a little while before you went into the turn and that because even though you used the controls she was very slow at responding to them. So you were always, in a sense you had to be ahead of yourself but other than that they were fine. Yeah.
AM: So, so then you finished in the Catalina is that when you came back to —
BL: Yes.
AM: To the UK.
BL: Sent back to the UK to wait for a posting to a Boat squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: I never knew whether I would. I was to be going on a Short Sunderland or the Catalina again and I didn’t know. We were, we stayed in Harrogate for, I think for six weeks waiting on a posting.
AM: Right.
BL: We came back to Harrogate from the States.
AM: So there you are in Harrogate fully expecting to become, to become a maritime pilot. To become a Flying Boat pilot.
BL: That’s what I expected to go on to.
AM: Right. So, tell me what actually happened then.
BL: I don’t know. It just happened. There was no postings came up for a Boat squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: And I then had to go to Little Rissington and convert in to the Bomber Command.
AM: Right.
BL: From, oh I forget now. What was the [pause] it doesn’t matter, I think. No. The flying, the Flying Boat commander. What was that called again?
AM: Maritime.
BL: It was maritime anyway.
AM: Yeah.
BL: Yeah. So, as I say I went to Little Rissington, converted on to an, on to an Oxford and then from the Oxfords I finally got posted to a squadron to do an OTU which was up in the north of Scotland at Lossiemouth.
AM: Right.
BL: I think it was.
AM: And what, what did you fly at Lossiemouth?
BL: Wellingtons.
AM: Right.
BL: To begin with it was Whitleys. We had a Whitley to begin with.
AM: And did you have your own crew at that stage?
BL: No. No. Not all of it. And I never flew in a Wellington. That’s not right. I flew the Whitley and I had a part crew.
AM: Right.
BL: I think I was missing an engineer. Yeah. I think it was the engineer and then from, from there I was posted down to York. And then from York I was posted to [pause] no. I must have done another. Before that happened I was posted to Stoke Orchard for some AFU flying.
AM: Right.
BL: And then from there I was posted up to Forres actually. More so than Lossiemouth. I didn’t fly from Lossiemouth. It was Forres I flew from, and I flew the Whitley then.
AM: Right.
BL: And then from there I was posted down to Harrogate and then I joined 77 Squadron.
AM: Right. And what, what aircraft did they have then?
BL: There they were the Halifax.
AM: Right. The Halifax.
BL: Yeah. That was Group. 4 Group. And 4 Group were Halifaxes.
AM: Right. And had you crewed up by this stage?
BL: When I got to Harrogate that was when I picked up my engineer.
AM: Right. So how did, how did, tell me a little bit about this process of getting your crew together then.
BL: Well, that was left up to ourselves to pick who we wanted and I had it in my mind I wanted to have an all Scottish crew.
AM: Right.
BL: And I nearly achieved my purpose. I had all, I had I would say six crew plus myself and I had five, and needed an engineer. No. A sparks. I had an engineer. There was a sparks I was missing.
AM: Right.
BL: A wireless operator.
AM: Right.
BL: I couldn’t get anybody who was Scottish. This was what was, we were given, I think we were given a week, I can’t remember but they had to be, had to get it done. If you didn’t get it done yourself then they would do it for you. Whoever was in charge. And I had got the five and I was left with one and that was the engineer and I had a day to go. That was all. So, I thought well I’ll have to pick on somebody. I did ask a chap and he was quite happy. Yes. That was ok. He would come and join them and blow me down but the next day a chap came up to me, a Scottish lad and this chap who had asked to come as, you know the last member of the crew he was English and the lad who came up to me the next day was Scottish. I just missed out on the all Scottish crew.
AM: Right.
BL: So I don’t think there would have been too many of those, you know.
AM: No. I don’t think so at all. So, by the time you got to the squadron about how many Halifax sorties had you done on the OTU, roughly?
BL: I would say very few. I mean my first operational trip was to a place called Russelsheim in Germany. And I only did I think three or four trips altogether when I found myself in the CO’s office saying to me that there was a posting he would like to, ‘Would you like to go on a posting somewhere else?’ He said. And I said, ‘Yeah. I don’t mind.’ He says, ‘Well, we’ll have you posted and your crew and you’ll be leaving tonight.’ Just like that [laughs] And that’s what happened and we moved, we flew down to [pause] it’s a Transport Command station in the south of England. Still in operation today and I can’t think of the name of it.
AM: Was it, was it Lyneham?
BL: No. No. No. It wasn’t far from Lyneham but it wasn’t Lyneham. It was another name. So we spent a night. Yeah. We spent the night there. We flew down there and spent the night and the following night we boarded a Hudson not going, not knowing where we were going. Just going on to, there was, you know another crew and ourselves and flying out as passengers. Nobody told you where you were going and it wasn’t, the first place we touched down at on the way out was Gibraltar to refuel and get breakfast. We had breakfast of bacon and eggs.
AM: Right [laughs]
BL: And then we took off and we flew along the north coast of Africa until we got to [pause] I can’t remember now though I did, I think we [pause] yes we landed at what was called Cairo West. It was an airfield. The airport or the airfield was in the desert.
AM: Right.
BL: And that’s where we landed and that was with 216 Squadron, which was the squadron I had been posted to. That’s where it operated from, this squadron in the desert.
AM: And this was still on the Halifax.
BL: And they were flying DC3s then.
AM: Right.
BL: Left the Halifax behind.
AM: But you flew the Halifax in Italy did you not?
BL: When I went up to, when I went up to there. When I got posted there. From there I got posted up to Naples and then in Naples I was posted down to Brindisi and they were fitted out with Halifaxes.
AM: Right. Which Mark of Halifaxes was that?
BL: It was the Mark, the Mark 2 I think it was.
AM: Right. And what was the, what was the role of that squadron?
BL: That was a special duties squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: So that was simply feeding the guerrilla fighters, if you like with guns, ammunition, and food and clothing and they would go and do drops wherever they set up a dropping zone.
AM: And was, whereabouts were these drop zones? Yugoslavia or —
BL: Mainly in the Yugoslav. Mainly in the Balkans.
AM: Right.
BL: Various places in the Balkans and usually they would be somewhere in a clearing in the hills. There was usually hills around about you.
AM: Yeah.
BL: You seldom got a, you know a dropping zone which was clear.
AM: And were these drops being done by day or by night?
BL: By day.
AM: Right. And what sort of height were you dropping from?
BL: About eight hundred to five hundred feet.
AM: Oh, my God. And was it mainly stores or people or both?
BL: No. There was some people. Joes we called them. We went some, there were two or three flights with Joes on board but mainly it was supplies.
AM: Right.
BL: It was. And —
AM: I understand you were involved with dropping some of the agents involved with the recovery of the Nazi art, is that correct?
BL: That’s right. Yes. That was as I say. That took place. Not that I knew it at the time but there is a book written about it.
AM: Right. This one. “The Monument Men.” Is that it?
BL: The, “Monument Men.” Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: Right. Yes. I flew them in to where we had to drop them off and where they were going was we landed on a plateau and as I say it was Norway. We didn’t land on the plateau. We dropped them off over the target.
AM: Right.
BL: And it was snow covered at the time. It was in the wintertime, and we left them at that and where they were going was down in to the valley and we could see the lights.
AM: In to Berchtesgaden area was it?
BL: Pardon?
AM: Was that at Berchtesgaden in southern Germany? Or was it —
BL: No. That wasn’t the name. There’s another name for it. It’s mentioned in the “Monument Men.”
AM: Right.
BL: But I can’t think of it. Anyway —
AM: Did you ever have a chance to talk to these people you were going to drop?
BL: I didn’t but my mid-upper gunner did.
AM: Right.
BL: Well, that was his previous job. That’s what, he’d been trained as a mid-upper gunner but when we were flying as the special duties which we had done most of, we had only done three or four bombing trips. He got talking the odd time but most times the people, they didn’t speak English or they wouldn’t speak English whatever way it was. They didn’t say anything about what they had to do.
AM: Right.
BL: There was, there was one story came back to us. I think it really came back to us. One story came back. One story came back saying we’d dropped them in the wrong place and well as far as I was concerned and the navigator was concerned we dropped them where we were told when we got our briefing before going off on the flight. And sometime later we discovered that it was a habit of the ops people that they would be there telling us where we were going. Not telling us where we were going but telling us a false place. In other words the idea that was that somebody had been talking to us, or we inadvertently said something about where we were going to do the drops but we wouldn’t be there because that was all changed.
AM: So it was a decoy really.
BL: It was a decoy. Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: And the final dropping zone we got when we went to our final briefing, not until then.
AM: Let, let me just take you back a bit to your, your early bombing sorties on, on the Halifax when you were still based in, in Yorkshire.
BL: York.
AM: Yeah. At Elvington and Full Sutton. What was your first bombing sortie? Was that a day sortie or a night sortie?
BL: No. It was a night sortie.
AM: Right.
BL: I went as a second pilot actually.
AM: Right. And what was that like having for the first time — ?
BL: We were bombing from I think about ten thousand feet and that was just you know all the lights and everything else. I’d never seen anything like it.
AM: No. There was a lot of flak.
BL: Yes. There was some flak. Yes. But I just did the one trip, you know.
AM: Right. And then you went off with your own crew.
BL: Yes.
AM: And what were the first bombing sorties you did then?
BL: Well, again that was just the [pause] the next day. I never knew what we were dropping you know in a sense of what our bomb load was.
AM: Right.
BL: Never, never sort of saw into that. The only thing was that there was one trip we had to do and that was daylight trip. We were supposed to be bombing behind the British lines but before we got there. I mean in France this was.
AM: Right.
BL: But before we actually got to the, where we were supposed to be dropping these behind the British lines, as it were word came through the radio operator that we had to return home and drop our bombs in the Channel. The operation was off. It was cancelled. And of course they didn’t want you landing with live bombs.
AM: No.
BL: At the airport. So that’s what happened. That was the only time it did happen and we dropped them in the, in the Channel.
AM: Right. So these were sorties to support the British troops in Normandy.
BL: That’s right.
AM: Right. And did you do any sorties against the V-1 sites or —
BL: No. No. Aye. Probably we did. But I didn’t —
AM: You mentioned Russelsheim in Germany.
BL: Yeah. That was the very first trip I did.
AM: Right.
BL: That was a night trip.
AM: Right.
BL: But I think that’s why it sticks in my mind.
AM: I can imagine. And were most of those sorties you did at that stage day trips?
BL: No. No. Only because, only, we only did three or four trips. I should go and get my log book and look it.
AM: Yeah. You can do. [unclear]
BL: That’s fine. That’ll do it.
[recording paused]
AM: Perfect.
BL: I think it was Full Sutton. That was where I was at, look.
AM: Yeah. Bill, if you can just tell me a wee bit about what life was like at, at Full Sutton.
BL: Well, I can’t say that there was any outstanding other than just if there was an operational on we’d get our briefing during the day we had, spent at you know in the camp or went in to York. Like I say I spent a lot of time on my own. I didn’t go around with a group of lads.
AM: Right.
BL: I was, I suppose I was considered a loner.
AM: Right.
BL: So there was nothing.
AM: So, what was, what was the social life in the mess like?
BL: Well, it was alright. I mean, I just met up, you know, I knew a few lads. There was one other chap that we were, I was quite, kind of friendly with that kept in touch after the war as well but he has died. He died several years ago.
AM: Right.
BL: I’m trying to remember now. Something about [pause] you see my memory’s gone now.
AM: I think all of us suffer a bit from our memory’s fading a wee bit.
BL: My memory’s gone for lots of things.
AM: So when you, when you, when you left the RAF and, and joined the Reserve where did you move to then?
BL: Well, we used to go to Grangemouth.
AM: Right.
BL: And we’d go there, you know for I would not only get there on a Sunday I didn’t get there every weekend and I never spent a weekend at Grangemouth but I went there and did fly in a Tiger Moth over there.
AM: Right.
BL: So that was really what we did at Grangemouth.
AM: And what sort of flying was that in the Tiger Moth? Was it flying cadets or —
BL: No.
AM: Just training.
BL: Just training. We had a good commander there. You’d go off, off solo.
AM: Yeah.
BL: You know, you passed out and I mean most of the flying was done solo so that was interesting. And as I say was [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of it.
AM: And where were you working at this stage?
BL: Well, to begin with, before I joined up I was working in a cinema as a projectionist.
AM: Right.
BL: And when I came back I went back to the company and I got a job back again as a projectionist. And then from there I left that and I went to work at the Hoover people in the Hoover factory. That was just simply a production job. I was just checking out the, the [pause] what would you call it now, what would you call it? The electric. They were making electric motors.
AM: Yes.
BL: And that was a question you had to check. Just, I mean it was a dead simple job.
AM: And was this at Cambuslang?
BL: That was at Cambuslang.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s right.
AM: So, what did the people around about you think about having an RAF pilot working in the Hoover factory? They must have remarked on it.
BL: Well, I don’t think anybody knew. I don’t think anybody were any the wiser.
AM: No.
BL: I never talked about it.
AM: You never told them.
BL: No.
AM: Right. That’s amazing. Right. I suppose that must have been quite common after the war. That people went from being, you know aircraft captains.
BL: Oh aye.
AM: To being, working on a shop floor.
BL: Yeah. Well, you see I was lucky enough, I don’t remember now but I mean as I say I joined up in the Reserve, and there was an exhibition in Glasgow in the Kelvin Hall and the RAF VR had a stand there. So naturally I went along there and talked to them and that’s when I joined up again.
AM: Right.
BL: Went back into the Reserves and then started going to Grangemouth and doing some flying from Grangemouth. And then Grangemouth closed down and I went to Perth. Again, it was just weekend flying for a wee while but eventually I got a job in Perth as a staff pilot.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s what started me off.
AM: Right.
BL: You know. Up until then I was just sort of dodging around. I really hadn’t a proper job, a fixed job when I came back.
AM: And were you married by this time?
BL: I’d got married by then. Yes.
AM: Aye. So you needed a steady job.
BL: Yeah.
AM: So where did you go from [Airworks]?
BL: Aer Lingus
AM: Right. So you moved to Ireland.
BL: We moved to Ireland. Yes.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s right.
AM: And when you started with Aer Lingus what were you flying?
BL: A DC3.
AM: Right. So, that was something you knew.
BL: That’s exactly. That’s why I got the job.
AM: Right. And how long did you fly the DC3 with Aer Lingus for?

BL: Quite a long while.
AM: Right.
BL: Because that’s all they had.
AM: Right.
BL: Were DC3s but eventually they got —
AM: Was it a Viscount?
BL: Viscounts.
AM: Right.
BL: Viscounts. That was it. They got the Viscount and then they got the others. What was that called? It was a Dutch plane. F something.
AM: Oh, F-27.
BL: F-27, that’s right.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I knew those so I flew those.
AM: Right. Nice aeroplane.
BL: It was. Yes. And what did I do after that?
AM: Did you not finish on the Boeing?
BL: I might. I finished on the Boeing at Aer Lingus. Yes.
AM: Right. So, it was the first —
BL: When I went to Aer Lingus that was the last employer I had.
AM: Right. And what, was the Boeing 737 the first jet aeroplane you flew?
BL: I would say so. Yes.
AM: I think that’s fantastic.
BL: Yes. I went to the States to convert on to it.
AM: Right.
BL: Yeah. Yeah. So it was, in fact it was the first 737 to be flying in Europe. So it was.
AM: Right.
BL: At that time.
AM: Right. So that’s quite an accolade to go over and pick up the first 737.
BL: Yeah.
AM: And when you retired you were on the Boeing 737.
BL: Yes.
AM: Right.
BL: Yes. I never left them. Oh, well I did actually. I flew the 70, 720 for a while. I did, oh I spent the best part of a year I think, six months or a year as a navigator. They were short of navigators.
AM: Gosh.
BL: At one period when they were flying the Atlantic and they were using the 720 I think it was. And I flew in that as the navigator. Didn’t fly as a pilot.
AM: Right.
BL: I was a navigator because I had my navigator’s licence.
AM: Right.
BL: And then when I finished that section I got moved into the pilot’s seat. The co-pilot, and just continued from there and eventually moved over in to the captain’s seat.
AM: Right.
BL: Finished my time as a captain. I wish in a way you know it was all down in writing and not up here.
AM: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
BL: Because I can’t remember.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I can’t remember now an awful lot. My memory is actually worse now than it used to be.
AM: Bill, it’s a remarkable story and it’s been a great pleasure listening to you, and meeting you and hearing the story of your life.
BL: I’ve been [pause] It’s been an enjoyable life.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I’ve been lucky. Very lucky, with all the different places I went to. Were able to fly from.
AM: Yeah.
BL: With different aircraft.
AM: And flown some lovely aeroplanes. Bill, thank you. I’ll switch that off now.



Alastair Montgomery, “Interview with Bill Leckie. ,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 23, 2024,

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