Interview with Dennis James Gill


Interview with Dennis James Gill



IBCC Digital Archive




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00:38:48 audio recording




AGillDJ161121, PGillDJ1601


DK: David Kavanagh, from the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Mr Dennis Gill at his home on November the 21st 2016. I'll just put that there.


DK: If I keep looking over there I am just making sure it’s working. So if that’s OK. What I wanted to ask you first of all was you were with 199 Squadron as a flight engineer?

DG: No, a rear gunner.

DK: Oh rear gunner, sorry, OK, I've got the wrong ─. It does say that, my mistake, sorry. First of all what were you doing immediately before the war?

DG: Um, I was working, well I ─. I went into Hallcroft Aircraft Company when I left school. I left at 14. I stayed there about a year and then the war started and they put black out, blacked out all the windows and I was in the sheet metal section, a trainee. I didn't like the noise and didn't like being cooped up so I left there and I had one or two other jobs prior to going in the RAF. I ended up working for my father. He had a second hand furniture shop.

DK: Where abouts was that? Where abouts was the furniture shop?

DG: Surbiton in Surrey.

DK: Oh, I know Surbiton well.

DG: Do you?

DK: I used to live there for a while.

DG: Did you? Well I actually lived in Tolworth.

DK: Oh, OK, I know it well. So what year would this have been then, roughly?

DG: What year?

DK: Yes, what year when you joined the RAF?

DG: I think it was about 1943.

DK: So what made you join the RAF rather than the Army or Navy?

DG: Well I’ve always been interested in aircraft and I didn’t want to go in the other ones and the only way you could get into the RAF was to volunteer as aircrew or pilot and, um, I volunteered as a pilot and got approved.

DK: Yes

DG: But they said there was a ─, I wouldn't be called up for a year but if I wanted to be called up straight away, um, I could volunteer as aircrew which I did.

DK: Right, so what would that have meant then? That you could go as any aircrew, gunner or ─?

DG: Well you could volunteer for what position you wanted, but I don't think I would have volunteered but I don’t think I would have volunteered if it had been anything but an air gunner, because I, um, I didn't like the idea of being claustrophobic inside a bomber. I don’t think I would have volunteered but being able to see out ,and especially of course if you were being attacked you could be firing back at something, so that is why I chose that.

DK: Right so you're then a trainee air gunner? So where did the training take place? What was your ─?

DG: Porthcawl in Wales, I can’t really remember, um, up on the Yorkshire coast, Bridlington, those places.

DK: And what did the training involve then as an air gunner?
DG: Well it involved, um, aircraft recognition, Morse Code, I don't know why Morse Code came into it, and semaphore. You know with the lamp and or pointers and of course at Porthcawl we went in Ansons and did flying.

DK: Right, would that have been the first time you flew then, the Anson?

DG: Yes, um

DK: What did you feel about that the first time you ─?

DG: I quite liked that.

DK: So was that gunner training from the aircraft you were shooting at targets presumably?

DG: Well yes, um, one thing that disappointed me was the fact [laughs] that we were in the Anson, there was about five or six of us and there was a mid upper turret, there was a single seater trainer plane putting a target drone about six hundred feet away. We all climbed up there and had a bash at it. You could see them by tracer mainly and when we [chuckles] got down I expected to see the drone peppered with holes but there was only about three in it. [laughs] So it enlightened me a lot.

DK: So hitting a target while you are airborne was quite a bit more difficult then?

DG: Oh yes it is, yes.

DK: So after your official training as a gunner where did you move onto then? Can you remember the name of the operational training unit?

DG: I can’t remember where that was and I haven’t got my log book it disappeared somewhere so –

DK: That's a shame.

DG: Um, but I’ve got copies of the other crew log books but I can’t remember the, where this was, but we went onto, let’s see [pause] yes, I done some writing, don't know if you know, it's been published in that.

DK: Right. Let’s have a look. Just for the recording it's the world’s local history group newsletter number 58 New Year 2015 wartime memories.

DG: I had two or three in there actually but that, um, but the war time memories is quite ─ they are all interesting but this one is about training incidents and that's quite interesting and they are the articles that I’ve written so far.

DK: Oh right. And those articles are all for this publication are they or ─?

DG: No, no they are in, they are in that one and this one.

DK: Oh, The Sterling Times Magazine.

DG: They gradually keep publishing them and all of my articles are with the Imperial War Museum.

DK: Oh, OK.
DG: They got to know about them and asked me to send them. Unless you want copies of them you can have them, but –

DK: Um, I think the centre would certainly be interested in copies of these. That one, that one has got your training memories there.

DG: My training.

DK: So that’s what I'm going to [unclear]

DG: This, um, [flicking through papers] I don't know where it is now but there is one about my pre-war experiences before I went into the RAF, because we had quite a lot of activity in Tolworth before I joined up.

DK: So just following this here at the operational training unit then you trained first on Wellingtons and then Stirlings?

DG: Yep.

DK: So would have that been where you first met your crew?

DG: Yes

DK: So how did that happen? How did you meet them?

DG: Well we went to the OTU for Wellingtons and the procedure is you go into a Nissen hut and the NAFI have got some tables along side with tea and cakes etcetera. There are several air crew ,not air crew actually, several air crew members in there and they are all milling about and there are probably about half a dozen pilots and they look around and they choose who they want to be in their air crew.

DK: Right.

DG: And my ─ the one about the, the training incident tells you about that procedure.

DK: Oh OK, so the pilot approached you then did he? So we need a gunner?

DG: Um.

DK: So can you remember the name of your pilot?

DG: Oh no I can't, I could if I tried but I can’t at the moment but what I know is that, in there, he was older than the average person, thirty, and he got kicked off the course because he couldn’t handle the Wellington then we got another younger chap a pilot officer. He was about twenty. White his name was and eventually we lost him as well because we, er, he crashed the aircraft when we were taking off and he had to go back for more training.

DK: Right, so that was an accident at the OTU was it?

DG: No it was an accident on the 199 Squadron.

DK: So you have done your training first of all on the wellingtons and then the Stirlings?

DG: Yes

DK: So what did you feel about the Wellington as an aircraft?

DG: Well I don’t know whether I had any feeling about it but I quite liked the Stirling. Well, well if you can say you like a material object, I mean –.

DK: But did you feel confident in the aircraft?

DG: Oh yes.

DK: I'm just reading this. [pause]'He's trying to f'ing kill us all' [laughs]. So the first pilot was washed out? He didn't complete the training?

DG: No he couldn't handle it.

DK: So you have another pilot and his name was?

DG: White.

DK: White, so ─?

DG: Nice chap.

DK: So from the OTU then you’ve now gone to 199 Squadron? Straight there?

DG: Yes, that's North Creake near Wells on Sea in Norfolk.

DK: So how many operations did you actually do with 199 Squadron?

DG: Thirty-seven

DK: And were they all on Stirlings?

DG: No Halifax and Stirling

DK: Do you know how many of each?

DG: No, but you had to, when you sign up as an aircrew you have to do thirty ops but what they don’t tell you is that if you are wanted as a spare gunner with another crew that doesn't count. Which is how I came to do the seven more.

DK: Right. So you were a spare bod with another crew then?

DG: On seven occasions yes. The mid upper gunner I think he, he did it on about ten occasions or about nine.

DK: So as, as, as just for the recording really but, as an air gunner what is your duties on the aircraft? What are you really there for?

DG: [laughs] Well nothing actually because in my opinion they were superfluous.

DK: Really.

DG: In night flying.

DK: Yeah.

DG: I just sat there and waited to be killed. There’s no way you can, you can shoot down at a night fighter, no way at all.

DK: Did you see many night fighters then?

DG: We only, I saw one and that I think was stalking us but we were very lucky because they were shooting down so many aircraft that they had to go back to their airfield to get fresh ammunition and this one I’m quite certain had run out of ammo.

DK: Yeah.

DG: Because he simply went away. Which was lucky for us.

DK: Right. So did, so that was the only time you –

DG: The only time, well yes.

DK: Did you fire on him or ─

DG: No.

DK: No.

DG: Well I, the reason I didn’t fire on him I was in quite a quandary actually, is because he wasn’t directly behind me. He was at, at that angle and because of that I thought could it be a Mosquito. You see and it was so dark, I'm quite good at recco, but it was so dark I couldn’t really make out and I thought Christ I don't want to shoot down a bloody Mosquito and he got quite near and I could of done but he was at that angle. Obviously not going to shoot at us.

DK: Yeah.

DG: So I didn't shoot.

DK: I guess if you, if you do then fire you’re actually drawing attention to yourselves aren't you?

DG: Yeah.

DK: Very good. What about the flack and the search lights were you hit at all by the anti-aircraft fire?

DG: No because we were a special duties squadron [clears his throat] and we had all this ─ We didn’t carry bombs just me though, two wireless operators. One did jamming and what we did was throughout this window in front of the bomber, the bombers that were going to a target.

DK: Yeah.

DG: Then we had to go and, go on what they call a race course. I’m not sure how many there were of us, I think there was only two, one on one side of the target, one the other and we went ─ and we had to fly a [unclear] target. We had to fly backwards and forwards each side of the target as near to the target as we could get and fairly low, about ten thousand feet. So that the second specialist wireless operator could jam the anti-aircraft guns and their, and their search lights.

DK: Oh right.

DG: So we were stuck there. Well at Hamburg we were stuck there for about an hour.

DK: While the raids going on?

DG: Yes and quite close to the search lights and at Hamburg I saw the chap the other side the target get shot down. So we were ─ you know, and the bloody, we, the search lights when they come past you they light up the whole of the interior.

DK: Yeah.

DG: Quite frightening actually.

DK: Um. So if you were caught in a search light what does the pilot do then to?

DG: Well, um, he, he tried to corkscrew out of it didn't he and of course in that, what ─ there’s one here that says, yes that one, “I’m about to die”. Now this is all about Hamburg and a friend of mine who lives at Lowestoft he was an engineer that went to Hamburg and he said as he was approaching, ‘the amount of flack was unbelievable’, and he said, thought to himself as he approached this ball of flack 'this is where I am about to die'. Well I use that phrase because there was a point where, one of the things that concerned me more than anything, more than the actual enemy was the possibility of colliding.

DG: Um.

DK: And I saw this Halifax coming straight to us from the, from the, from the right hand side like that. And I didn't ─ how it missed us I don't know, I mean only by about a couple of metres if that and that’s where I said, I thought to myself this is where I’m about to die and that was, that was what concerned me more than anything and the other thing of course is we don’t know how many aircraft were, collided with each other, and you see the other thing is when you, when you’re at a briefing they don’t go directly to the target they go on what they call dogleg courses to confuse the enemy as to where you are going. Well if you have got a thousand bombers going there then they’ve got to go that way they’vee all got to turn and if some leave it a bit late, you know, the, the possibility of a collision is huge.

DK: Yeah. So did you go on all of the Hamburg raids then or?

DG: No, No, I only went on one.

DK: Right. Only one? [pause] So this is just for the recording here, this is the “World’s Local History Group Newsletter” number fifty-nine, spring 2015.

DG: Do you want a coffee at all?

DK: Um, I’m fine thank you; I just had one on the way.


DK: [pause] So how did you feel then at, at the briefings then when you saw the target for the first time?

DG: Well [long pause] [rustling of papers] where is it in here? [long pause] This is the one. [pause] Oh yes. That explains. Our wireless operator is the only other person in the crew who is alive at the moment.

DK: Oh right. OK.

DG: He lives; I think it’s in Staffordshire, Midlands.

DK: You can’t remember his name can you?

DG: Yes, Um, Andy Croxhill.

DK: Andy.

DG: I still write to him.

DK: Croxhill.

DG: Well –

DK: I just wonder if our people have been to see him or not.

DG: Pardon.

DK: I just wonder if our people have been to see him or not.

DG: Well I hope he doesn’t see that because that refers to him and he was scared stiff of flying.

DK: Right. So he was, he was, sorry, the navigator?

DG: No the wireless officer.

DK: Wireless operator, sorry?

DG: The ordinary wireless operator.

DK: Right.

DG: Not the specialist and of course it tells you there about the briefing when his reaction to it.

DK: So it’s, do you mind if I read this out? Is that OK?

DG: Pardon.

DK: Do you mind if I read this?

DG: No.

DK: So it’s "Wartime Memories the Other Side of the Coin". So bomber aircrew had a unique scenario, in other services you could find yourself at the sharp end of war and it could be traumatic but you did not know when or how many times. If you were bomber aircrew you did know you had to face the sharp end for a minimum of thirty operations and the constant knowledge of this had its psychological effects on you. The media glamorised aircrew as being brave heroes. They were never depicted as being afraid. I spent seven months with my operational squadron and every day I was afraid. We were all afraid so we had to act as if we were not afraid and give morale support to each other except for Andy he was very afraid and a poor actor. Andy was a small slim person with dark hair and pale complexion he didn’t seem an aircrew type to me he said after the war he wanted to sit under a tree and write poetry. We all knew if we had on, if we were on ops when we went to our NCOs mess for a midday meal for there on the blackboard would be the names of the crews involved. So every morning Andy was very quiet. If there was an operation on he ate his meal in silence. If there was no operation his demeanour would change and he would become cheerful and talkative. At an operational briefing the briefing officer was stressing the dangers involved as well into enemy territory and the target would be heavily defended and more night fighters would be deployed. None of us were very happy. I was sitting between Andy and Mitch, a mid upper gunner, and Mitch nudged me and said ‘look at Andy’. I did so and Andy's pale features were white, white as a sheet. Returning from one operation due to bad weather at North Creake airfield we were diverted to a Lancaster Bomber airfield in Lincolnshire. There I met an air gunner I trained with. I remember him as a gregarious cheerful character. I was dismayed to see how he had changed. He was obviously under stress and told me that he was scared about going on operations. He was now very serious and confided in me that he didn’t expect to survive this tour of operations. He seemed to have an intuition about his fate. I only hope he was wrong. That’s by Dennis Gill, Rear Gunner, Stirlings 199 Squadron. Um, so it shows the, the tensions doesn't it?

DG: Yes. And there is another one talking about tension. There is another article that says lost comrades. That’s when you ─, I'll let you have them if you want them.

DK: Yeah. OK that would be good.

DG: Yes, lost comrades that tells you about the tension because we were in our billet with another crew and of course they went off one night and we all wished them a safe operation and they didn't come back. And because you have got five or six beds there all empty for maybe a week and that sort of all affects you.

DK: Um. [pause] So apart from the Hamburg raid then can you recall what other operations you, or what other cities you flew to?

DG: No, we went to the Ruhr quite frequently, yes and Magdeburg, Cologne. They are the ones I remember.

DK: And as, as 199 Squadron, and that was part of 100 Group wasn't it?

DG: Yes.

DK: The special duties. So all of your thirty-seven ops then were special duties?

DG: Yes.

DK: Yeah, with the extra wireless operator there?

DG: Um.

DK: Um. So when, when you converted to the Halifaxes then, how, how did?

DG: I didn't convert to the Halifaxes.

DK: Oh you didn't, oh.

DG: No I just flew in them.

DK: Right OK.

DG: As a spare gunner.

DK: Oh right OK, OK. So your main tour then was Stirling the extra ones were Halifax?

DG: Um and the pilot we eventually crewed up when Pilot Officer White crashed. We had, we obviously had to have another pilot. He had just done a tour. He was a New Zealander about six feet two. Completely fearless. I’ve got another article about him and he was completely fearless and he thought he was immortal I think. And when we finished our operations we were called in to see the Wing Commander or his [unclear], I’m not sure which, who endeavoured to persuade us to have a ─ do a second tour. And none of us did except him.

DK: Right.

DG: And he went out to Japan and did a third tour there and survived that.

DK: Oh. Can you remember his name?

DG: Barrack.

DK: Barrack.

DG: Flight Lieutenant Barrack.

DK: So the, the crash that your previous pilot was involved in, White.

DG: Um.

DK: Were, were you on board at the time when he –

DG: Um, Oh yes

DK: When he crashed?

DG: Oh yes.

DK: So was anybody injured seriously or?

DG: No, I've got another article about that, the crash actually. What happened was this Pilot Officer White because they were all inexperienced these pilots.

DK: And this was in the Stirling?

DG: Yes and the Stirling was easily affected by wind and it was blown sideways onto the rough grass. Before it reached its take off, take off speed he tried to yank it up and he got up so high and stalled, and went banged down again. Then he tried to pull it up again and it went up a bit higher and it came down and the under carriage went through the wing and all the tanks ruptured and caught fire.

DK: The crew all got out ok then?

DG: Well, I was at the back.

DK: So you’re sitting in your turret at the time?

DG: No up against the bulk head.

DK: So you sat there for take offs then?

DG: Yes.

DK: Yeah.

DG: With the mid upper gunner.

DK: Yeah.

DG: And of course when we, when we crashed when I looked forward it was all flames. I tried to get out and it was pitch black and my foot slipped and got caught in the structure of the, of the Stirling. I kept trying to pull it out and I thought oh sod that. I pulled my foot out, I pulled my foot out the boot and got out of the aircraft. The other mid upper gunner he got out. The door was open and then I ran away from the aircraft and then I thought is there anything I could do so I started to run back then I saw all these crew coming up out of the top escape hatch and the flames were about ten feet high beside the fuselage and they went through them. Why they didn't go the other way I don't know, [laughs] over the nose, which was [laughs] obvious to me but anyway they all came over the top turret, down the fuselage onto the tar plain and we stood there watching it burn and of course the flames got to the mid upper turret, triggered the, the mechanism to shoot and it, and it was dipped down about five degrees aimed directly at us [laughs] and the [unclear] was going straight over our heads so we all dived to the ground and it eventually finished.

DK: But you were all ok though?

DG: Yes but when I went to the, to the stores to get another pair of flying boots the pilot officer who was the stores, in charge of the stores, he accused me of panicking [laughs].

DK: I'm not surprised; I think I would have panicked. [laughs]

DG: Well, maybe he was right but I don’t know. [laughs]

DK: [laughs] Oh dear. So did you get your new flight boots?

DG: Oh yes.

DK: Um. But the crew were all OK though?

DG: Them were all OK, yes.

DK: But what, your Pilot White never flew again then?

DG: No.

DK: No.

DG: Well I don’t know whether he flew. But he survived the war I know that, but him, he probably went on and flew with another crew.

DK: Um.

DG: I don’t know.

DK: So that’s when you got the New Zealander then?

DG: Um.

DK: Pilot Officer Barrack?

DG: But I, we were only on the squadron seven months. You see. I did thirty-seven ops in seven months which was about, I don’t know two, one or two every three weeks, something like that.

DK: And they would have all been in 1943?

DG: Forty-four, forty-five it would have been .

DK: Right.

DG: Those. Yes the beginning, in the summer and winter of forty-four we did that.

DK: Did you go on the D-Day operations or?

DG: Pardon.

DK: Did you go on the D-Day operations? The Normandy invasion?

DG: Well that’s when we more or less started.

DK: Right.

DG: And then, Um. Yes.

DK: So you did your thirty-seven operations, you finished your tour. Did you, did you know you were about to end your tour then or did it come as a bit of a surprise that you were no longer flying?

DG: No because when we done thirty with the aircrew we all knew we were finished. I went onto a mechanics course. Went to Blackpool and the, the mid upper gunner was given a commission and he went out to India.

DK: Right.

DG: And served there.

DK: So, so what did you do for the remainder of the war then? Were you training or?

DG: Well I was ─ well I was being trained as a mechanic.

DK: Right.

DG: But shortly after that I got demobbed.

DK: Right. So what was your career after leaving the RAF then?

DG: Well I had one or two jobs but because I hadn't got a, a profession and I happened to get into a nearby local council doing their printing, plan printing and going out with the surveyors and there was a building inspectors office there and I went and saw the chief engineer and I said ‘could I spend some time with the building inspector ‘because I wanted to study building.

DK: Right.

DG: Not stay in this job there was no future in it and he agreed and then there was, I saw an advert for a trainee building inspector at Mitcham and I applied for that and got it and that's where I started my career as a building inspector.

DK: Oh right, OK. So after all these years how do you look back on your time in the RAF?

DG: [laughs] Well it was very traumatic and makes you very anti-war and but you ─, but you ─, and I very, and I, after the war I was very concerned about, and when I was in, in, in doing the operation, concerned about area bombing. Which was against the laws of war, whatever that, I can’t remember what they are.

DK: The Geneva Convention?

DG: Yes the Geneva Convention, yes against that but of course it’s all very well for people to sit round a table and make rules but when you’re actually in the war and there’s a possibility you are going to lose it you don't worry about rules and after the war I, I realised then that we had no alternative but to do that because anyway Hitler and the Nazi's were doing it in Spain and elsewhere.

DK: Yeah.

DG: But there you are, that’s war I mean it's a sort of madness really.

DK: Um. Did you stay in touch with your crew at all after the war or?

DG: Yes for a while, yes but the engineer went to South Africa. He caught a disease there and died. The pilot went back to New Zealand. I don't know what he did but he of course passed away. There’s only me and Andy who are left.

DK: The wireless operator?

DG: Of the crew, yes.

DK: And you’re still in touch with him then?

DG: Oh yeah.

DK: That's Andy Crookshaw?

DG: Um, yes.

DK: From Staffordshire? So let's see if we have, if he’s been interviewed or not.

DG: Um.

DK: OK, that's great. It’s really interesting.

DG: Um, Ok.

DK: What we got there? That’s thirty-five minutes.

DG: Do you want copies of my writings or not?

DK: Please if that's possible.

DG: Well I’ve got them in A4 form.

DK: Right, OK. ‘Cause what we can do, I'll just explain, I'll just turn this off but thanks very much for your time. I’ll just keep this –

DG: He quite frequently told the pilot he was shutting an engine down.

DK: This was the flight engineer?

DG: Yes, and then later on he told them he’d restarted it, well I don’t know if it was to do with icing or anything like that. Might have been.

DK: Right. So how often was your flight engineer shutting down an engine then?

DG: Well I, well I think during our tour he done it about ten times.

DK: Oh.

DG: Roughly.

DK: Right.

DG: I guess.

DK: And, and just the one engine each time?

DG: Yes, just the, well no he shut down two at one time and we were losing [unclear] all the time and he managed to get them back. [laughs]

DK: Strange. We'll leave that there.

DG: I don’t really understand and that is why I’ve never ─. I’ve read quite a lot of books about the war but why Hitler was so anti-Semitic.

DK: Um.

DG: You know, I’ve never seen any explanation for it.

DK: For it. No.

DG: But was it just an excuse or something?

DK: It's taken as read that he was anti-Semitic but not explaining what made him anti-Semitic.

DG: No.

DK: No.

DG: And the other thing is that I think is most important. I was going to write to the Imperial War Museum, um, I, I can understand someone like Hitler who is really a very psychopath and a bit mentally disturbed really because you know he’s got this thing about his country and the and the Germans being superior race and all that sort of thing but, I can’t what I can’t understand is if he had been in this country and he was voicing his opinions about enslaving the world for the right of England I would have said it's wrong.

DK: Yes. That's an interesting question. Why did the German people ─

DG: Why did they, why –

DK: So –

DG: Why were they all evil? I mean these fighter pilots, I mean some of them fighter pilots, one of them shot down three hundred aircraft.

DK: Yeah.

DG: Now I ─, if you’re doing that to enslave the world you're bloody evil and yet you never hear people talking about them. That Galland for instance he’s another guy. In my opinion they were all bloody evil except the poor buggers who were conscripted.

DK: Yeah.

DG: But anyone who volunteered to do that in my, in my opinion they were evil.

DK: Yeah. ‘Cause they’re, they’re supporting the regime aren't they?

DG: Yes of course they are, course they are.

DK: Yes, but I guess Britain did have its fascists there was Oswald Mosley.

DG: Um.

DK: But the British people didn't, didn’t really take to him did they. They didn't follow him.

DG: No.

DK: He was a bit of a joke. He wasn't –

DG: Um.

DK: He wasn’t taken seriously as a serious fascist leader like Mussolini and Hitler was.

DG: Um.

DK: That’s an interesting question that one.

DG: It is.

DK: Why did people like Hitler so readily ─

DG: And well I’ve got a book, it’s in my bathroom I read it when I’m sitting on the toilet, about how the English people, like my nationality, they bugged the prisoners of war who were here and listened to what they were talking about and it's very sickening the way they enjoyed killing people.

DK: Um.

DG: You know I can’t imagine English people doing that.

DK: No, no.

DG: Anyway.

DK: But it was killing by the allies that was done reluctantly with the access powers they seemed to be doing it willingly and ─

DG: Oh yes, yes, um.

DK: Very strange.

DG: Well there’s a bit –



David Kavanagh, “Interview with Dennis James Gill,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed March 2, 2021,

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