Interview with Margaret Cuthill


Interview with Margaret Cuthill


Margaret Cuthill volunteered for the WAAF in Edinburgh. She went for her basic training at Wilmslow before completing her training as a teleprinter operator at RAF Cranwell. She was then posted initially to 14 Maintenance Unit. After the war she married a pilot who had been based at 149 Squadron. Her husband never talked about his experiences during the war but the crew would be in touch on the anniversary of an operation on the 12th of December which affected them all.




Temporal Coverage





00:53:48 audio recording


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ACuthillMSFH181213, PCuthilMSFH1801


BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing LACW Margaret Cuthill at her home in Ainsdale near Southport at 3.30 on Thursday, 13th December 2018. Margaret, I believe you’ve lived here only for a relatively short period and I’d like to start by asking some basic questions. Can you confirm for me your date of birth please?
MC: The 11 7 ’26.
BW: 11th July 1926.
MC: 1926.
BW: And what is your service number or what was your service number?
MC: It should be here [pause] 2151005.
BW: Thank you. And whereabouts were you from originally? Where were you born?
MC: I was born in Broxburn. Broxburn is near Bathgate. It’s in, it’s near Edinburgh a little way. I’m trying to think of the county. Be east I suppose. Broxburn is the name. What does it say in here? Anything? I shouldn’t think so [pause] No. There’s nothing like that.
BW: You said Roxburn near Bathgate.
MC: Broxburn. B.
BW: Broxburn.
MC: Yeah. Near Bathgate.
BW: And that’s near Edinburgh as you say.
MC: Yes. Well, it’s relatively near you know but I don’t know how near.
BW: Ok. And apart from your mum and dad how many other people were there in your family? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
MC: Complete I’ve one brother. One sister. But there’s quite a gap. There’s ten years between my brother and me and sixteen years between my sister and me so —
BW: So you were right — you were the middle child are you? From those three.
MC: No. I was the eldest. So, we didn’t really grow up sort of as a family. Rather a gap. But life. My father was, my father worked on the farm in his early, in the early years until I was about twelve and then he went in to the shale mine. And then on to coal mine. Meantime I’m nearly just leaving at school at fourteen and I, I was interested in wanting to become nursing but that couldn’t happen. So I was in a, working in a shop for some time.
BW: What —
MC: And then when I was about sixteen, seventeen [pause] no sixteen, I moved from home in to a doctor’s house to care for the children and help with other things. And from there when I was seventeen and a half or more I asked my parents about joining the WAAF and they agreed. So I went along there when I was seventeen, eight — well nearly eighteen. Just under eighteen years old when I joined the WAAF. Volunteered. And I did want to do, become a nursing orderly but they said no. You had to be eighteen. So then they offered me, they offered me radar or teleprinter or kitchen. So I went with the teleprinter operator.
BW: So it was really a choice.
MC: Yeah.
BW: Not a lesser of two evils as such.
MC: Yes.
BW: But a choice of what was available.
MC: Yes.
BW: Actually to be taken.
MC: That’s right. But radar I really didn’t know anything about radar and so teleprinter was sort of a stab. Certainly didn’t want to go into the kitchen.
BW: Where did you join up? Was it, was it in Edinburgh where you went along to the —
MC: Yeah. Edinburgh. George Street.
BW: Recruitment office.
MC: That’s where I went along to volunteer.
BW: So this would be right in the centre of the city was it?
MC: Yes. Just off, off Princes Street.
BW: And what did they tell you to do then? You presumably had an interview at the recruiting office.
MC: Yeah.
BW: Did you then have to wait for a request to go to be trained or selected for training?
MC: Yes. I think it was just a couple of months probably. Something. Not more than that I waited. And then I had the letter and the train ticket to go to — I was going to Carlisle. To number 14 MU.
BW: And this would have been early 1944.
MC: Yes. May. In the May. And I do remember I hadn’t really travelled much before that so I was on the train. Of course it was quite you know really crowded with service people and all that then, and I was on the train. A very long train. We got to Carlisle and the train was very long so it couldn’t pull right all the way in to the platforms. And I was in the last couple of carriages and I found I couldn’t, well we went off and I got, I didn’t get off and of course I was in a bit of a state. Plenty of people of there, ‘Don’t worry. You’ll be alright. Get off at the next stop. York. And then come all the way back again.’ And then the, what do you call them? The police, the RAF police are on the station usually. And I went there and there was transport and they took me to 14 MU. And there was the staff sergeant who, in charge of people arriving and of course he was quite, you know. Not very pleasant because I was late. And they called, his nickname was Spam. I remember that. And then from there on I was taken to start being entered on the station and gradually having to go around all the different places for uniforms and, and you know entering in to different sections and things. And it was quite a big place, 14 MU. And the signals section was quite big. I can’t remember how many we were there. But in the hut there we were all people, all girls that were on shift work so we all, we were all on the same shift. Then there we didn’t have transport. We walked to work. And it was shift work so that was quite good. Three shifts. And of course [pause] No. I’ve jumped. I’ve jumped a bit. I haven’t done the elementary training. I shouldn’t be there now.
BW: Ok that’s —
MC: I should be at Wilmslow.
BW: That’s right. Ok. So from the recruiting office then in Edinburgh.
MC: Yeah.
BW: You were sent not to Carlisle immediately. You were sent for training at Wilmslow.
MC: That’s right.
BW: Right.
MC: But that actually, that part did happen when I had to go back again. Yes. It was Wilmslow. And we were there for about five or six weeks and that was just the elementary training. Being in the WAAF and uniforms. And ranks. Getting to know the ranks and saluting and how to salute. And we weren’t then allowed out of the camp for these weeks at all and I can imagine some girls it didn’t suit them because they wanted to get out. But on the whole it wasn’t so bad. You just got used to it.
BW: And were you in a barrack with seven others did you say? Or —
MC: Oh more.
MC: Eight.
MC: More than seven. Usually there was about ten in a hut. And you had those wrought iron beds and you had what they called biscuits but they were big sort of square cushion things. Really hard. And then you had rough blankets and a sheet. Yes. I think we had a sheet. Yes. And a bolster pillow which was a bit hard and rough and rolled. A round one. And you had to, in the mornings you had to make your bed up and that all had to be tidy as you left it. That sort of thing. And we did have to do some PE in the mornings. Early. And then you’d do your — go for your meal. And then you went, we continued doing, having schools to teach you about the ranks and the rules and everything. And it was amazing how these weeks were taken up just doing that. And not being out of camp.
BW: How did you find your induction then to service life? Did you find it was something you took to quite easily? Did you enjoy it?
MC: Yes.
BW: Or was it very different from being at home?
MC: No. I didn’t find it hard. Well obviously I did miss home at the beginning with not very much. But my life had been [pause] where we lived when my father was the farm and that we were always well out in the country and we didn’t, there wasn’t much in the way of other children around and, except when I went to school. And so it was from then on really. My life was — I seemed to manage quite well by myself if you know what I mean. Friends were fine but then I was always moving on somewhere else so I didn’t keep friends for long. But all my life’s been like that really. Up until now. Moving on. Even in the RAF, with moving on.
BW: And do you recall any of the others that you were friends with on, on the training course?
MC: Yes. They were, we all seemed to get on well. You know. They did have their moments. And I had, I think — no I didn’t have my twenty first there. That was somewhere else. Yes. The girls. We seemed to get on well enough, you know. You had our different groups coming in each week and it was the time of year when it was, the weather was quite good in the summer months. Wilmslow. I think we were taken out twice but we were taken out in groups to a W, we called them YWCA canteens in Wilmslow. Yes. Because something funnily enough after all these years when we’ve been travelling my husband and I we passed by little some this part that was on a slope. And I recognised this and I thought golly. That’s where we used to be. And it was a garden. You know, a garden. So it’s amazing.
BW: And did —
MC: Wilmslow seemed, it was a rather nice little town then. What we saw of it anyway.
BW: And did you manage to spend any time socialising in Wilmslow at all? Were you allowed?
MC: No.
BW: Time off at all. Not for those six weeks.
MC: No. Never. No. We weren’t allowed out at all. I can’t remember what else we did as an evening. I don’t know. We had exercises and lots of writing to do, to do with the rules and saluting and all the different ranks. There was quite a lot to it really.
BW: And from there was when you were posted off to the Maintenance Unit. Is that right?
MC: To 14 MU yes. From there. Yeah. And that’s when I got, you know myself with the train problem. Yeah.
BW: And were you given any sort of trade training let’s say before you left for the MU or did you do that more through learning on the job?
MC: I’ve jumped again. From Wilmslow I went to Cranwell and that’s where I did my training for a teleprinter operator. Yeah. I’ve forgotten that. Yes. That was ten weeks there and I really did enjoy that. It was very nice. And we lived in married quarters and one room would be, there would three to a room. We were a bit squashed but anyway. So the house was, I can’t remember how many in the house but we had a sergeant. No. She was more than a sergeant.
BW: Would she have been an officer?
MC: No. This woman that shared the room, the house with us she was when you had the band she was the leader in this band. She was a something sergeant. But she was the one up front and she was really nice. Very attractive, tall, well-built woman. She was very nice to all of us. Yeah. I remember that. And there then when we went for our, to our, to do the course we would walk from our quarters to the centre where we’d be trained and we were trained to do the teleprinter work to music. And so that was quite nice to do that. And so we had to walk there and walk back a fair way every day. But it was quite a big camp. Lots of things going on. It wasn’t just, it wasn’t just signals section. They had cadets there. I can’t remember what they were supposed to be doing but they were there. Quite a lot of them. And I do remember they had, they always held a dance on Saturday so we were all able to go to this place, this hall wherever it was on camp. To their dance. And they’re signature tune was, “You take the A train.” I don’t know if you know that one. “You take the A train.” Yeah. That was their signature tune. And yes it was very nice. I enjoyed my time there. I did make friends with one of the cadets. His father was in the RAF as well. And [pause] yeah he gave me [pause] they had a wheel. That was, I think they had that one on their forage cap. A wheel badge. So he gave me one of that and I put in my bag but I lost that. And so that was the end of that. That was ten weeks. It was very nice. And summer months. And these houses backed the airfield. It was not a very big airfield. They just had light aircraft there. It was very pleasant.
BW: And married quarters backed on to what they call North Airfield. And the A15 I think it is runs through the camp.
MC: Does it?
BW: Or the camp is either side of that road.
MC: Yeah.
BW: And what is now the main runway is to the south of that.
MC: Yes. Sleaford village wasn’t far. Just of out there and we seemed to walk there sometimes. But it was very pleasant all around there. It was very nice. And we had a final, final parade and there was all the different bands there. Not just, it wasn’t just for us it was other it was for other occasions and this Lady Walsh she was the person who took the salute at this big parade that was taken in front of that college that we have a picture of.
BW: The main officer’s mess.
MC: Yes.
BW: The main Cranwell College building .
MC: Yes. Yes. I think it’s officers now. It’s an officer’s college now, isn’t it?
BW: Correct.
MC: Yeah. So that, yes it was nice there. And then it was from there then went on leave and then to 14 MU. So, by then I was really getting quite used to being in the WAAF. 14 MU. Even, even being able to bear up to this flight sergeant telling me off.
BW: What sort of things were they telling you off for ? Was it to do with uniform or — ?
MC: For being —
BW: For making mistakes.
MC: No. For being, no just being late because that was—
BW: I see.
MC: Something that was really frowned upon, you know. People went on leave or didn’t come back on time you know were quite liable to be put on a charge or something. But it’s just that I suppose they have to listen to so many different stories that your story is nothing to them so —
BW: So this would be coming into autumn, early winter 1944 now when you’re at 14 MU.
MC: Yes. Yes. It was.
BW: And how long were you based there for?
MC: I think I was there [pause] I think about two years. You know. It wouldn’t be more. It seemed a long time but I think it would be about two years. So that brings me up to what? ‘44, ’45.
BW: ’46.
MC: ’46. Going to run out of time [pause] because I’ve got a piece of paper somewhere telling me [pause] After. Was there another little piece of [pause] So then I was posted to 90 Group. Egginton Hall. And that is near Derby. I can’t remember the other places that were near to it. It’s a rather small market town. They did [pause] it’s quite well known for its pottery but I can’t remember what it’s called. So I was there for, I don’t know if I was there a year but we were there and it was, it was just a big old house where we, everyone worked in all the different rooms of an old house. And the signals room was, it was just a little room like the ground floor. Like a scullery or a maid’s room or something. And they had the big windows there. It was what you call sash windows that you could push up. And yes it was quite good there. You were just facing out in to the courtyard. And they had Italian people you know. Prisoners wandering around doing some, supposed to be doing some work you know and always ready for a chat. And then there they had a river running through the grounds of the hall. And it was very much out in the woods sort of thing. I always had to get back. It was difficult to get leave in the place because you had to walk to get a bus and they didn’t run transport there. But they had other things that went on that you could amuse yourself in the evenings. Table tennis and different things they had there. But there it didn’t have, not a lot of people. Not a lot of service people there. They didn’t have the work for them there. And they had a rather a woody area and they used to say there was a white lady there scaring people, you know. Walking toward us, white lady.
BW: A ghost in the woods.
MC: Yes. But and then from there I moved on to 60 MU Handforth and that was [pause] do you know if I keep feeling I’ve lost something somewhere. 60 MU, Handforth. Stafford, I think. I don’t know. I haven’t got anything else. I don’t, I don’t know.
BW: And was it all the same sort of work that you were doing. Were you?
MC: Oh yes. That’s what I was trained.
BW: Typing out signals or messages or, or what?
MC: Well, you would type out signals that were given to you by the staff or you’d be receiving as well. And at, they were all small stations but at 14 MU it was quite big so you were dealing with different RAF stations that would send in signals for some reason or other and probably because 14 MU was a place for, where they did parts. You know. Repair parts and all sorts of things like that. So the signals came in and then from different, quite a lot of we had a big board up and it had the call signs on this board and the call signs would be three letters like, Stafford would be STA or something like that. You know, Eggington hall — EGG. Just a brief call sign. So that when I wanted to send out to another station I would have to put my call sign up so they would know. And then they did deal with telegrams as well from Carlisle Post Office. They had, they dealt with some people. Was it cables? I can’t remember. So it was quite busy there and we usually had a lot of staff on every shift. But sometimes a supervisor at night she would say well you know, a few just three or four could rest while the others at the machines. Things like that. And of course we always walked to work there because it was within walking distance. But we did have bikes if we wanted to use them, you know. To get about.
BW: Presumably at this stage of the war your weren’t on the receiving end of any enemy raids or anything were you?
MC: No. No. Nothing like that. No. Because —
BW: It would be fairly quiet operationally, I suppose.
MC: Yes. It was. Yes. It was — what was it? Was it ’45? D-Day.
BW: ’44.
MC: ’44. Well, I was there because that’s where we celebrated. At Carlisle. That was another thing. While I was there and we were celebrating and they wanted to celebrate through Carlisle. So they had some, one or two of these big long trailers like we have today for car transporting lots of cars. Well they were long trailers. What they called the Queen Mary. And of course a lot of us including me we had to go on these things and parade through Carlisle [laughs] Oh dear.
BW: So there’d be you and your colleagues all uniform on the back of a trailer.
MC: Yes. Yes.
BW: Being towed around Carlisle.
MC: Yes. Fortunately the weather was not so bad at that time. But we did have parades and that’s one thing I must say I did like. I did like parades. I did like marching. Somehow or other. I quite liked the music I suppose.
BW: And you mentioned before that your husband had been a pilot in Bomber Command.
MC: Yeah.
BW: How did you meet him? Were you at a Maintenance? Were you at one of the Maintenance Units when —?
MC: I didn’t meet him in the RAF.
BW: Ok.
MC: No. I was, that was 1949 I met him. So I was well out of the WAAF then. And he was still, you know, RAF. But I was not, you know anywhere near him in when it was in the wartime. I didn’t know him then.
BW: And so during your time you’d be at Carlisle at the Maintenance Unit until about 1946 I think you said.
MC: Yes.
BW: And where did you go from there?
MC: To Egginton Hall.
BW: Egginton.
MC: Yes. Egginton Hall came next. I think. Yeah.
BW: And was that your final posting before being demobbed?
MC: Handforth. Handforth is an MU. Handforth is I where I finished. It’s something [pause] It says this place called Kirkham. But that must have been the demob centre. Kirkham.
BW: Yeah. There was a —
MC: Oh yes.
BW: Reception Centre there.
MC: Unit group 61 MU Handforth. 9 of the 10 ’47. Yeah.
BW: And so you finished your RAF service in 1947.
MC: Yeah.
BW: And did you go, you say to Kirkham to be demobbed.
MC: No.
BW: Oh, that was at Handforth.
MC: Didn’t go anywhere. They just did all this work —
BW: Ok.
MC: On the station you were on. Yeah.
BW: Were you offered or did you want the opportunity to stay in or did you feel that was the right time?
MC: No. I didn’t think —
BW: No.
MC: I didn’t think of carrying on. No. It wasn’t mentioned and I didn’t even think about it. Yeah.
BW: So you’d have just turned twenty one when you came out.
MC: Yes.
BW: The air force.
MC: I was. Yes.
BW: And what happened in the years after the war then? What? What course did your life take after that?
MC: After that I went to, I wanted to try and continue teleprinter work and I was trying with the Post Office and that didn’t work. And then, so then I found a job as typing and other things in a shop in Princes Street in Edinburgh. Doing typing and work that they wanted typing and things like for their firm in Boston. So it was just doing letters and getting some things together that, because they wanted, it was a shop that dealt with all the tartans and different things in Edinburgh. So they were all interested in that. And I was there just about a year and, maybe not and then I found a place for teleprinter work. It was Bruce Peebles. They were an engineering firm but it wasn’t teleprinter that they really wanted. They wanted a Dictaphone typist. So I did that. Dictaphone typist for some months there and then, then I, where did I go now? Dictaphone typist. Then I went to Prestwick. Prestwick. They had a signals section there. And that was in a very large old house near the, it was nearer the airfield. There was a, it wasn’t new but it hadn’t been going I suppose many, many years. Prestwick. It was a big airfield for transatlantic aircraft but I don’t know when that would have started because I don’t know if it had been going. Well, it had been going a bit but not anyway that was very busy there and we our living quarters were just over the other side of this runway. So it was a bit noisy at times. Also they had workshops. And anyway it was alright. And it was from there that I got married.
BW: So did you meet your husband while you were working in Prestwick?
MC: No. I, I while I was at Prestwick yes. Because I went home maybe most weeks. Something like that. And I would go into Edinburgh sometimes to the cinema or a dance. And that’s where I met him. He was on leave at his father’s and step mother’s home in Edinburgh.
BW: So your husband was on a posting from Edinburgh.
MC: No. He was at, he was at Dishforth in Yorkshire. At that time on a course doing heavy aircraft. I can’t remember. It wasn’t, not the Lancaster. It was another heavy aircraft that he was training for long distance. He would, eventually he would fly from say Dishforth or Topcliffe something like that to Singapore. And stop off at different, different places enroute with parts or picking up things. Parts of aeroplanes or something enroute these different places. Ceylon was one place. I can’t remember. I used to know them all but, and then he’d be away for a week at a time every now and again.
BW: Do you know which squadron he was with in the war? Was it —
MC: 149.
BW: Based at Methwold.
MC: He was at Methwold. Yes.
BW: And did he tell you much about his service at all? Say, any notable raids that he’d participated in or —
MC: No. He never talked about it. Never. But the strange thing was that after he’d finished doing the training on these aircraft and things having his after that we were at Topcliffe then. But then we had a posting to Methwold. And though he still didn’t talk about anything except when we got there because it was all, you know just a few big, big, what do you call them? Hangars and things and a few bits around the place and we did walk down by where was the control tower area. And he just went in there and had a look. And then he came out and said, ‘No. There’s not any. Not any maps there.’ And he never, never went in anymore. Never talked about it ever to me. Until you know perhaps odd things in later years.
BW: Did he mention any crew mates at all?
MC: Yes. We, we did meet up one or two of them after some years when we were at [pause] at our, where we had finally lived. At [unclear] in Wiltshire. And he did, yes he did meet his navigator once in London. And we met that, Paddy they called him. I can’t remember. We did meet him. And we visited him and his family. In fact we have kept in touch with them some of the time. Always on the 12th of December which was a very bad raid for him. That’s when he got, he got a bullet across his shoulder. Here.
BW: Was that Paddy or your —
MC: My husband.
BW: Husband was, he received a wound to the top of his right shoulder.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. No. Not the top. At the back of his shoulder.
BW: The back.
MC: Yeah. And then he had the DFC.
BW: But he never said where that raid was.
MC: No. I, I just understood that the, they always went for industry rather than towns. But that was a bad one.
BW: Do you recall Paddy’s last name at all?
MC: I have got it somewhere. Yeah. I can get it for you because I’ve got it in my book.
[recording paused]
BW: Paddy Fowles.
MC: Yes. F O W L E S. And they lived at Port Talbot.
BW: And you mentioned one of the other crew men was Australian.
MC: Yes. We did, we had initially contact with them but that’s not happened for a long time. I don’t know.
BW: And there were no other names that you recall from his crew or that you were able to keep in touch with.
MC: No.
BW: Did he say what Paddy actually did as, what his role was as aircrew? Was he a gunner or a wireless operator or something?
MC: He was, he wasn’t a gunner. He was an electrician.
BW: Flight engineer.
MC: Flight engineer probably. Yes. Because, yes he was quite. Yeah. I think that was probably his piece. He was, he seemed to be quite close to Paddy and kept in touch with him. At least every year on the 12th. But he died. His wife is still around and you know I’ve been in touch with her.
BW: Well, where the flight engineer sits its right next to the pilot in a Lancaster so —
MC: Yes.
BW: Perhaps natural that they kept in touch.
MC: Yes. I think that was it. Yes. Yeah.
BW: So they would have worked quite closely together on, on their tours.
MC: They would. And the navigator does as well doesn’t he?
BW: Yeah. He sits slightly further, further back.
MC: Yeah.
BW: But yeah, still sat fairly close to the pilot.
MC: But he did say about how they, when they were going to choose the crews you know they would all have to go in to some big hangar and be in groups. And then the pilot would choose or ask who would like to be this, that or the other. And it just seemed that this little man was left. And this little man was the Australian navigator. And Charles always said he was really a very, very good bloke. I think he did say once there was one, I don’t know which one it was but he, he got cold feet so they couldn’t go. One of the crew. He wouldn’t go so that tour was, for them was cancelled that night. So it was pretty tough on himself really.
BW: He never said what happened to him?
MC: No. He didn’t say.
BW: Did he see him again after that particular incident?
MC: No. I think he would have been probably removed. People like that are removed to, well away from whatever. If they do it once they are probably going to do it again.
BW: You mentioned earlier that you’d been or your son and grandson had been to Lincoln to see the Bomber Command Memorial.
MC: Yes. They had.
BW: What do they think of the efforts now to commemorate veterans of Bomber Command?
MC: Oh they were over the moon with everything they really were very, absolutely. Matthew he’s got no end of stuff you know. Writings and things he’s done. He’s really, and of course he’s still, I don’t know what it is — some correspondence going on to do with this dog.
BW: Which was a mascot for the crew.
MC: Yes. And that dog it was, it was just nothing really. It was up in the attic room and it was sort of shovelled from one shelf to another from time to time and nobody sort of, you know thought much about it but by the end it was beginning to look bedraggled. A bit. Coming apart a little bit. I said to Matthew I really should get something done about it. He said, ‘No. Let me have it and I’ll have something done.’ But he never did and he just took it like it was. And they said they wanted it like that. They didn’t want anything done to it so [pause] And it was made by a WAAF. A WAAF. One of the girls that did the [pause] took the crews out to their aircraft. Something like that, you know. And she made that. She was Irish. And in fact after many years when we were married and we were visiting my daughter somewhere quite, not too far away from where this WAAF, now married, lived. Irish and married an Irishman. And so we went there and visited her. We visited them twice. So —
BW: And it was just like a little toy. Little cuddly dog.
MC: Oh yes. It was about, it wasn’t tiny it was just, you know normal. Sort of. And it had a white collar. A black dog and a white collar. And “Charlie” on the dog’s collar. That was it.
BW: So it was only about nine inches long by six inches tall. This little toy, then presumably. It was only little cuddly toy.
MC: Yes. Yes.
BW: Very good. I have no further questions for you Margaret. Is there anything that you’ve thought of since that you would like to add to the interview recording?
MC: No. I can’t think of anything at the moment really.
BW: OK. By all means if you do have any further information you wish to pass on you can let your grandson Matt know or you can contact me.
MC: Yes.
BW: And forward that on. So that’s fine.
MC: I can do that. Yes.
BW: So, thank you very much for your time.
MC: That’s alright.
BW: Thank you.



Brian Wright, “Interview with Margaret Cuthill,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed February 27, 2024,

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