Interview with Laurence Harbutt

Interview with Laurence Harbutt

Laurie Harbutt was born in Edmonton, London. Before he volunteered he worked as a wireless telegraphist which was a Reserved Occupation. He wanted to join the Navy but because of his occupation his only option was RAF aircrew. He was posted to 77 Squadron on Whitleys. He witnessed RAF Driffield being attacked by enemy bombers on the 15th of August 1940 during the Battle of Britain. As the war in the Middle East escalated, he was posted to Aden. He spent three and a half years in the Western Desert. In 1943 he was attached to 94 Squadron, and subsequently 55 Squadron in Italy. At Monte Cassino he had to bale out of the aircraft and was badly injured in the fall. Fortunately, he was found by Polish soldiers and was sent to hospital. When he returned to the UK he was posted to 13 MU at RAF Henlow. Laurie recalls the sight of empty tables in the mess as so many didn’t return from the operations.

2018-05-14

00:38:19 audio recording

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AHarbuttLN180514, PHarbuttLN1801

JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Laurie Harbutt today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Mr Harbutt’s home and it is the 14th of May 2018. Thank you, Laurie for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is David. Now, Laurie, can you tell me your date of birth and where you were born and something of your family and early years?
LH: Yeah. I was born on the 12th of August 1921. I went to Raynham School in Edmonton. When I was eleven I passed the eleven plus and I went to the Grammar School at, called the Latymer in Edmonton. I was there until 19 — when did the war start?
JH: ’39, wasn’t it?
LH: Well, when the war started I went to the recruiting office at Eltham to join up, thinking I would go in the Navy. Unfortunately, being a Civil Servant I was unable to join the Navy so the recruiting officer offered me, ‘Or you can go in the Air Force if you wish.’ And he said, ‘Exactly what do you do?’ I said, ‘I’m a wireless operator telegraphist.’ ‘Oh, that’s just what we want.’ So from there on I was sent up to Morecambe to do foot training. Done several weeks there, and then I had an interview regarding going on aircrew. I said to them at the time, ‘What’s aircrew?’ Because at that time I’d failed to see many aircraft. They said, ‘Well, you’ve got fighters and bombers. Bombers obviously have more than one and you would become one of the crew.’ So that was what happened. I joined, joined 77 Squadron in Yorkshire which were Whitley bombers and we’d done, done all the raids of, leaflet raids in Europe, Germany, Italy. I’d done that for possibly about four or five months, then I was posted overseas. I joined 77 Squadron in Aden and the war escalated in Egypt, and we was all sent up in to Egypt which was the Middle East and I was stuck in the Western Desert for three and a half years. From there went into Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia. All those countries. I was there ‘til January 1945. When I returned to England I went to Number 13 MU which was at [pause] oh, where was it now? I forget. In actual fact I forget. I forget the name of it at the moment. Henlow. Henlow, was that. Yeah. I was Henlow until April ’45. I was, I left the Air Force in 1945. About April ’45, went home, and then shortly after I joined the Metropolitan Police. I was in the Metropolitan Police twenty five years. Coming out of there I became a publican and was a publican in the Pilot Public House, Greenwich, and I done seven years there. Having done seven years there I moved to Brandon here. Brandon and then Thetford. And I had a opportunity to join a security unit, Abbey Security and I was there for twenty years. I retired there when I was sixty three, and thinking that I’d, I’d done enough. So since sixty three I’ve enjoyed my full retirement and here I am.
JH: So did you do any other things through your retirement then? Did you —
LH: Pardon?
JH: In all those years since you’ve been retired have you been active in anything in particular? Have you followed any hobbies or —
LH: Well, I’m a keen fisherman. I like trout fishing, and shooting which I’ve got guns and things. Yeah. Oh, I like fishing but unfortunately through health now I’ve got rheumatism or whatever in my knees and I’m unable to do it. So walking is out of the question. So, unfortunately I’m a bit home bound.
JH: And going back to when you were in the war did you actually have any particular special mates that you remember in your crews? Or —
LH: Well, I had so many but they changed so quickly, you know.
JH: Right.
LH: It wasn’t a good business my business.
JH: No. No. No.
LH: No. No it wasn’t.
JH: So there wasn’t, there wasn’t anybody you kept in touch with.
LH: I was detached from the squadron in 1943 to a fighter squadron because I’d had an accident. I’d had an accident and hurt my knee and my hands and I couldn’t use my hand for signalling, so I went to this squadron. A fighter, it was a fighter bomber squadron. 94 Squadron. Sir Ian and Sir Alistair were two of the pilots that flew on there. Both got killed. And I was on that for about two years I suppose.
JH: Yes.
LH: I think they forgot about me and then suddenly they remembered and I joined 55 Squadron and was operating in Italy then. And that’s when I came home. Yeah.
JH: And you didn’t get shot down in any of that?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Were you shot down ever in any of your —
LH: Well, yeah. In Fort Cassino. We were bombing Fort Cassino about every half hour sort of thing and we got hit and I had to get out rather quickly at night. Not very good, not knowing how high you were or what. But the skipper said, ‘You stand more chance of getting out then you do with standing by.’ So I baled, out and no sooner had I pulled my cord I hit the deck. Of course, I hurt my knee very badly, and all of a sudden there was a load of foreigners around me and I thought they were Germans but they weren’t they were Poles. Fortunately for me.
JH: Yes.
LH: And then I was taken to hospital and had a few weeks in the hospital prior to coming home, you know.
JH: So, how long was it before you had to go back up flying again?
LH: I didn’t go flying any more after that.
JH: Oh. Not after that.
LH: That was the end of it.
JH: Right. Right.
LH: Yeah. My flying days were over because as I say radar had taken over and I was not, well wanted any longer, you know. I went to this gun turret maintenance unit and of course obviously I knew all about gun turrets. Gun turrets used to come there, stripped off, reassembled. They used to test them and then they used to go back to the squadrons, you know. That was the job I did there. You know, an important job, but I think I made more photo frames there than I did anything else.
JH: And what were the actual planes like that you were on? How did you, you know the, was it the Whitley was it you were on?
LH: The Whitley.
JH: And which other ones?
LH: The Whitley was, you had at that time the only heavy bombers you had was the Whitley and the Wellington. They were the only heavy bombers we had and they had a crew of five men. You know. They were the only ones. No, no others. All the others were medium bombers, you know. Nothing really. The Blenheim. All around here. There’s a Blenheim. That was 108 Squadron. That was the one. The Liberators. You know.
JH: So, what did you, what were you on after the Whitley? Which, what plane did you go to next?
LH: I was on Blenheims.
JH: The Blenheim.
LH: The Blenheims. Yeah. I’ve flown in Blenheims, Marauders, oh several actually but what were the others, one? Yeah. It’s funny how you, when you’re put to the test you start forgetting, you know. Well, its seventy years ago now.
JH: No. That’s fine.
LH: You can’t remember your shopping list then can you? But anyway, you know I had a good trip around and I’m thankful for whoever was responsible for my [laughs]
JH: Yeah.
LH: Safety to be here.
JH: Exactly. And did you get much leave? Were you sent back home when you went out? Very often?
LH: Oh yeah. When I got leave I had weeks and weeks of leave.
JH: Oh. Did you?
LH: Yeah.
JH: Oh.
LH: That was it. I got in the way I think then. Yeah. My wife was a WAAF but she came out the services.
JH: Right.
LH: When I retired, you know.
JH: Yes.
LH: And —
JH: Did you have family?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Did you have family?
LH: Oh yeah. I have three girls. One lives at Harlow. One lives in Holborn, London. One lives in Canterbury, Kent. The one in Canterbury, Kent comes and sees me quite regularly and the one in Harlow. Yeah. They’re quite good. Yeah. My girls. Three girls. I always wanted a boy but there we go. Oh yeah, I’ve got, my family is alright. Yeah.
JH: Do you have grandchildren? Or —
LH: Oh, I have grandchildren. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
LH: But again, they’re in New Zealand. Yeah. My oldest daughter’s son’s in New Zealand. He’s just come to see me last week or so. And then my second daughter, her daughter is in New Zealand. Yeah. All away, you know.
JH: Yes.
LH: Very unfortunate but there we are. I’ve got a boat out there but I shan’t get there in that. Yeah.
JH: So, after the war did you actually go on planes again? Did you fly again like? To go on holidays? Did you ever go in a plane again?
LH: Oh, I’ve been on holiday.
JH: Yes.
LH: I’ve been in.
JH: You did. Yeah.
LH: Flying. Flying in passenger planes. A bit different than wartime.
JH: Well, yes. Yeah.
LH: Do you know what I mean. Everybody says, ‘Oh, I’ve been flying there. Flying there.’ But there’s no —
JH: No comparison.
LH: You can’t compare.
JH: No.
LH: That with wartime. Well, nothing in wartime. You can’t compare, you know. It was a hazard there which obviously you don’t have now. You know, you go from here to wherever you want to go. It’s safe. But when you’re in an aircraft in wartime there’s bits of metal coming up at you.
JH: Was it —
LH: To knock you out the sky.
JH: That’s right. Was it difficult to go? Keep going back up during the war, you know? To actually keep getting up there again?
LH: No. I didn’t have any difficulty.
JH: No.
LH: Because I was young and probably stupid, you know.
JH: Everyone was so young, weren’t they?
LH: I don’t think I could do what I did.
JH: No.
LH: I couldn’t do today what I did when I was eighteen. That’s obvious. There are certain things we saw that you’d find very upsetting, you know. Obviously, I don’t try to dramatize anything like that. I don’t even speak about it.
JH: So, so you actually did finish at the end of the war did you? You didn’t —
LH: Yeah.
JH: Stay in the service for any length of time.
LH: In April. April ’45 I finished with the RAF.
JH: Right.
LH: That was my lot. Yeah. And I faced the horrors of peacetime [laughs] No, I enjoyed my life in the RAF. There were obviously good times.
JH: Yeah.
LH: And there was also bad times. But you overlook the bad times because you had such good mates. Good comrades. You know. Comrades that you don’t get in peacetime. You know. You’d get a chap, if you weren’t there he was there for you. Which is great, you know. Yeah.
JH: Are there any sort of particular sort of exploits that you remember? That you —
LH: I remember going to Driffield in August. August the 15th 1940 when we was expecting a dummy run from Catterick. Fighters. Instead of that there was Ju 88s and thirty five people got killed.
JH: Gosh.
LH: That was when I got to Topcliffe. Two weeks later we moved to Topcliffe which is near Thirsk and Ripon. I don’t know how many miles away but a few miles away. So that’s where I left before I went overseas. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Because I think that I’ve written that down.
LH: But —
JH: It was the 15th of August, wasn’t it?
LH: In all the history —
JH: Yeah.
LH: Of like —
JH: It was called Black Thursday wasn’t it?
LH: That’s right.
JH: Yeah.
LH: That’s it, and I remember that. August the 15th it was.
JH: Yeah.
LH: And I was at Driffield at the time. Yeah.
JH: Because I believe that was the last time then that they did, that the Germans did the daylight runs after that.
LH: Well, they didn’t do so many.
JH: No.
LH: Didn’t do so many.
JH: Yeah. It caught them out didn’t it?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Caught them out.
LH: Caught them a bit of a hiding. Yeah.
JH: Oh.
LH: But only through the courage of those few in fighters that did the trick, you know. I mean to say I know without fighters you can’t get anywhere but I think by virtue of the fact of the bombing that we did in Germany done the trick. That done it. Yeah. You know. Because I had friends that were in the RAF with me, they were different navigators or something, and they went back to Germany quite a bit and they were devastated by what they saw, you know. But —
JH: What did you think of, I think they called him Butch Harris, Bomber Harris. What were your thoughts on him? What were, what were the people thinking at that point?
LH: Well, no we always thought he was a good leader, you know.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Good leader. Definitely. He had the right, right thing in mind. These people who say you shouldn’t have done that to Berlin. Shouldn’t have done that. But let’s face it they started. They were the first ones to do the bombing. I mean to say, even though they were bombing us we was dropping leaflets instead of bombs. Couldn’t find the target. We used to drop the bombs in the North Sea. But they used to put the leaflets down the flare chute. On all the aircraft we had a flare chute where you dropped the flare to lighten up the target, you know but you used to drop and push them down there, you know. Used to, I used to come off the desk and the bomb aimer used to give me a hand and that’s the job we used to do. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. To Adolf.
JH: And what, what were the, what was your duty as a wireless operator? Just sort of —
LH: Well —
JH: For the people who are listening, you know. What —
LH: Obviously, over the target was silence. If necessary I’d call up base and let us know, you know we’re ok and we’re coming back. Invariably we’d go off about half seven at night, 8 o’clock at night and come back half three or four in the morning. And I will tell you it’s cold in the winter but you come across the North Sea and get on the Yorkshire flying field you feel the cold. Oh, it’s terribly cold.
JH: Really?
LH: Terribly cold. And admitted you had Irvin jacket, Irvin leggings, silk —
JH: Gloves.
LH: Gloves. Yeah. But you were freezing.
JH: Freezing.
LH: You’d have probably a tin of soup and a Milky Bar. You know.
JH: Wow.
LH: Yeah. And for those who were sick there was the toilet that you’d use. Yeah. You know, sometimes. But I’d only been sick twice. What reason I don’t know. I was in a Miles Magister.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
LH: One of our, one of the fighter pilots on 94 Squadron, he said, ‘Coming out for a trip? We’re having a shoot around the landing grounds.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah. I’ll go up.’ I got up. Oh, I felt sick. And of course open cockpit. So vomited and of course the vomit was going all around me. Anyway, we landed and I was all, my appearance were always smart. My flying boots were always. And of course the ground crew come up to the aircraft, took the mail. I said, ‘The mail’s in the back.’ There’s a little box at the back of the aircraft. Take the mail out and of course we got airborne again but of course my handkerchief was full of vomit, wasn’t it? So I threw that out and of course he saw it flying out and he probably thought it was some letters or something, you know. Must have been a horrible shock. Yeah. And that pilot, a bloke called [Boshov], he was South African.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Later on in Yugoslavia they were hitting the trains as they were going out and of course he was too low and he got blown to pieces, you know. Yeah. Only a young bloke he was. Yeah. Yeah. There was two COs there. There was one there, MC Mason. They called him MC, because he had a beard and he was the only officer in the Royal Air Force that had a beard. He looked Jewish. A very good looking man really. He got shot down in Matuba in the Western Desert. And then there was another bloke called Foskett, Squadron Leader Foskett, he was CO of 94 Squadron. He got the chop in October ’44 out at sea off Greece. Engine trouble. Baled out and the canopy of his parachute got caught around the fuselage and he went down. Oh, I don’t know. An ordinary vessel picked up the wreckage and buried him at sea. Yeah. Yeah. Foskett. A bloke called Foskett. Yeah. Yeah. We had some, as I say we had some very nice people and, you know they just came and went, you know. But as I say I’m glad to be here. Not always glad to be here but [laughs] there are times when you feel you should be happy instead of sad. Well, you know being on your own for twenty years is not very pleasant. Well, I was explaining to our friend here, you know. Summertime’s not too bad. You know, you’re able to get out into the garden probably you know and, but the wintertime when it gets dark at 4 o’clock at night you know and there’s nobody to make a cup of tea except me. Oh, by the way would you like any refreshments?
JH: Well, we can do. Yes.
LH: What would you like?
Other: I can do that if you like.
JH: Yeah.
LH: What do you want? Tea? Coffee?
JH: Yeah. Just pause it a minute then.
LH: Beer. Whisky.
[recording paused]
JH: Ok. Yeah. So —
LH: I was adopted by my grandma and grandfather and [pause] what were we on about?
JH: Well, I was on about different diaries and things.
LH: Oh yeah.
JH: Yeah.
LH: And in April, February 1945 I’d left my, my kit bag and all my, my logbook, all my gear at my grandma’s and that particular night a rocket, it was the gas works next door to where she lived. Took the roof off and the house was demolished, and I lost everything I had. Photographs and things. All my personal stuff all gone. And that was a blow. So, you know I can’t ever refer to anything. I mean to say my memory, most of the time my memory’s quite good but you have days when you’re, you’re not so good, you know.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Well, I suppose the yellow matter’s drying up a bit you know if you can call it that. Yeah. Yeah. But as I say I’m quite happy. Happy clappy I suppose you’d call it.
JH: That’s lovely. But do you remember any other incidents and exploits throughout the war? Do you remember anything else?
LH: Yeah.
JH: That happened.
LH: I remember coming home on leave in 1940 and my grandma and grandfather obviously went down in to the shelter but I wouldn’t. I’d go to bed upstairs and I’d watch the, the what do you call it? The [pause] The German candles. What were they?
JH: I don’t know.
LH: Illuminated.
Other: Oh, they struck. Was it —
LH: Yeah. What did they call them?
Other: God. Flares.
LH: Flares. I’d watch the flares hanging on the gasometers. Hanging on the gasometers, but I thought to myself well, what I, what I’m doing, I’m near head office anyway then. I couldn’t be any nearer there then laying in this bed. At least I’m getting a good night’s kip, you know. Yeah. I’ll always remember that. Yeah. The street was hit quite, well Edmonton was hit quite a bit.
JH: Yeah.
LH: I lost a lot of people I knew, you know. As a boy you know. Yeah. Yeah. My grandfather was in the army for thirty odd years. Yeah. I don’t know much about my mother and father. They were wasted anyway. Yeah.
JH: Right. Were you an only child then?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Were you an only child? Did you have brothers and sisters?
LH: No. I’d got had a brother.
JH: Oh yeah.
LH: And a sister.
JH: Oh, ok. Yeah.
LH: But they’re both dead. It’s the way they, they were brought up, you know. Well, that’s what I put it down to. Yeah. They had a hard life they did. I had a good life being with my grandma. Because then my grandma had a daughter. Obviously my aunt.
JH: Yeah.
LH: She’s dead now but she was kind to me. Yeah. Yeah. I know I couldn’t have had a better parent really but it’s not the same as your mother and father, you know.
JH: No. No. And you enjoyed your education did you? You enjoyed it?
LH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I used to go to the church which was adjacent to where I lived. St John’s Church in Edmonton and we had boys dos and things. We used to play cricket and football on the vicar’s lawn, you know. We were all in the choir and all that sort of thing. I used to be in the choir. I suppose until I went in the Air Force really. And I was confirmed as you were in those days and during the week I used to help the vicar out and all that business, you know. And sometimes I thought I might have been a man of the cloth. I suppose I was thinking about going around knocking at the bride’s seeing whether they were all right [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No. I’ve had an interesting life really. Yeah. But anyway, as I say I think good luck to both of you. You’re both doing a good job, you know. It’s nice to think that people do what you do. Actually, I never get involved with any of this to be honest, you know. People say to me, why don’t you do this and do that? You know. Somehow or other I can’t imagine myself parading up and down with my medals and all that. My medals are still in a box over there. Still as they sent them to me, you know. I can’t. No. I can’t.
JH: Do you know what medals you’ve got there?
LH: Oh yeah. I’ve got, well I’ve got the lot haven’t I? Yeah. ’39/45, Italian medal, Alemein, Western Desert Medals, Italy medal, you know. Yeah. But I’d have rather had the cash [laughs] All my grandfather’s medals all in South Africa now. Yeah. Yeah. All in the Services except my father and he was a dodger. He’d dodge anything he would. Waster. Proper waste. Proper waster.
JH: Did you, did you regret that you didn’t get in to the Navy? Or —
LH: Oh yeah. I did.
JH: You know, that was where you wanted to go.
LH: I wanted to go in the Navy. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
LH: My brother was in the Merchant Navy. That’s my brother there. And my cousin. Do you know we were all in the Services? Well, the war came on and when you were seventeen and eighteen the average bloke wanted to get in the Army or do something. They didn’t want to walk about not, not being in it. Whether right or wrong I don’t know but that was the general feeling, you know and I wanted the Navy. But didn’t have it of course. As I said to most of these sailors, I said, ‘I’ve squeezed more salt water out of my socks then you’ve seen.’ You know. Well, I did. We, when, now the beginning of the war there was no such things as aircraft carrying people to the war. They were all troop ships. And I’ll tell you this if anybody has experienced a troop ship they’ve experienced something. I’ll tell you. I was fortunate. I had a, a quarter on the boat deck and that’s on the level. But on these big liners you go down to about X Y Z. Right down in the hold. And all the old squaddies, you know all the army blokes were all piled down there, you know, cor terrible. And of course on all these ships you have watertight doors every hundred yards and they posted men on those all the time. Twenty four hours. In the event of a torpedo hitting which was there all the time they closed that so all those blokes in there had had it. Nothing. You couldn’t do nothing about it. So fortunately, I never had that trouble. I was on the boat deck. Not as though you would have survived. I mean to say if you were out in the North Atlantic. We started off at Gourock in, near Glasgow. Almost went to Canada. Zigzagged all the way down. Got down to the west coast of Africa, Freetown, and then zigzagged all the way down around South Africa. Got off at South Africa. Had a couple of weeks in South Africa and then I went up to Aden which was on the Persian Gulf and operated from there because the war was still in Abyssinia and Eritrea where the Eyties were there. But of course as soon as Rommel got up in to the Western Desert pushing everybody about, wanted all the squadrons up there. And that’s what happened. I got on HMS Isis. Destroyer. It took me out to Egypt in seventy two hours. Yeah. So went from a hundred and thirty degrees in the shade to well, weather almost like this, you know. Yeah.
JH: Did you manage the heat ok? Was it —
LH: Oh yeah.
JH: You liked it.
LH: I’d rather have the heat than the cold.
JH: Yeah. You were happy. Yeah.
LH: I can’t stand the cold now.
JH: Right.
LH: No, I can’t stand the cold. I can’t have the cold at all, no, but of course it’s different here. When you’re cold, you know I’m allowed a drop of Scotch if I want it, you know [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah. But as I say I do admire, well the work, the work you do because you don’t get paid for this, do you? You get petrol allowance. Don’t they give you that?
JH: They will do, yes.
LH: Do they?
JH: Yes.
LH: As they should do anyway. But there’s so many people that just put themselves out for various things you know which you are an unknown quantity. You are actually. You know what I mean. People don’t, they say all the chaps.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Blokes were regulars. Done seven or eight years and were still LACs, AC1s, but us young blokes going in to aircrew were sergeants straight away, but the difference being they had two their feet on the deck whereas ours were airborne, you know. That was the difference. And it took them a long time for those blokes to realise the dangers, you know. Nobody wanted to be a w/op AG I’ll tell you. Not after, not when the war got going. When there was say fifty bombers going out and ten, twenty coming back. That’s a lot of blokes gone. Yeah. I mean to say when you got in the mess in a morning. When you came back. The little tables where Dick, Tom and Harry used to be. Nobody. No. But you tried to not talk about it, you know. Yeah.
JH: Didn’t you used to have a special, was there a breakfast when you came back?
LH: Oh yeah. Always. E and B, weren’t it?
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
LH: Yeah. And it depends who the WAAF was you know. If she was a nice bird, you know.
JH: Yeah.
LH: See her down the pub. Yeah. Yeah. I visited a pub that we used to go in to at, when I was at the last station and of a night of course it would be crowded didn’t it? They used to run out of beer didn’t they? You’d get, I had, had a mate who played the piano. Didn’t have to have music. He could play anything. He came on the piano and while he was playing we’d take the hat around, ‘A drink for the player.’ He never got a bloody drink. We were doing all the drinking, you know. Oh yes.
Other: That’s how you paid for your night out [laughs]
LH: Yeah. Oh, Christ yeah. Anyway, that was good but anyway I revisited the pub after the war, you know. Dead. Dead as a doornail, you know. You just couldn’t visualise the activity that used to take place there, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you go from here?
JH: Right. Thank you, Laurie for allowing me to record this interview today. Thank you very much.