Michael Peel interview. One
Title
Michael Peel interview. One
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Michael Peel was with the university squadron before volunteering for the RAF. He wanted to be a navigator but was encouraged to train as a pilot. He went to Canada to train in Harvards and Tiger Moths.
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2016-12-05
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00:57:42 audio recording
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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APeelMG900416
Transcription
Interviewer: 16th of April 1990. Right.
MP: Yes, you have to interview. I mean —
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes. Tell me why did you go in the RAF? [pause] Tell me where that came from.
MP: You’ve got enough there.
Interviewer: Just tell me.
MP: This is why I hate to tape this. It’s shorthand that is needed for this. You can take down whatever you want to take down and you’re not recording the whole blooming thing. [unclear] [noises] [unclear]
Interviewer: You were at school weren’t you?
MP: Oh, I see. You know most of this anyway.
Interviewer: No, I don’t necessarily. Well, you probably told me this but I can’t remember.
MP: Went in the OTC which might have become the CCF by then. I can’t remember. I joined the RAF squad because the RAF squad didn’t do much in the way of drill [laughs] or and you seemed to have a pretty easy free time in the RAF squad. Somebody came. A squadron leader I think came around. Obviously a recruiting officer came around and described the university short courses they were laying on. So I might have been in the university squad about a year then so I put my name down for that. That would probably have been in summer term 19 [pause] oh God, 1941. Yes.
Interviewer: You, so how old were you then?
MP: I was seventeen in September 1940.
Interviewer: So, you were eighteen.
MP: Oh yes. September 1940. So, during the time of Dunkirk which was June, July 1940 I was still under seventeen and therefore couldn’t have been on patrol guarding the British BEF, British Expeditionary Force which had come back from Dunkirk and were camped on Port Meadow. I don’t know. Maybe ten thousand of them. Something like that. Who during that month or so were guarded by St Edward’s boys of seventeen and over who were allowed. They carried rifles and I believe that each section leader or squad leader had ten rounds of ammunition which he held.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: With instructions to issue one round to each man.
Interviewer: Man [laughs] Here’s your, here’s your round.
MP: If the Germans came over and sent paratroops to attack the BEF [laughs] So the following term on September the 28th I was seventeen and then I could do all these things which I couldn’t do the term before. So then we used to sleep in the Armoury overnight. There was always somebody at the arm, manning the armoury. I don’t remember having any live rounds then. I remember we had bayonets because I can remember somebody catching a mouse or a rat with a bayonet. A very accurate shot he was too. That would be September ’41. Around through. Then there was what do you call it? Watching. Fire watching at night. When there was a raid, when the sirens had gone and there was a raid on there was always some, in fact, I think somebody was up all night. You were supposed to be out walking around the grounds all night. You’d do it in two hour spells. The rest of the house were sleeping on the floor in the day room. When I used to get in from that maybe 4 o’clock in the morning or something the thought of lying down on the floor was much too uncomfortable. If the all clear had gone I’d go off to bed to get some sleep. That takes us around. I left at the end of summer of ’41. At some stage I must have gone, it must have been, you had to be seventeen nine to go on the university short course so I was eighteen in the September and I started at the beginning of October.
Interviewer: So, what was the university short course? What was that?
MP: That was a six month course. You did the equivalent of a first year BSc.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Or whatever it was. What they called the inter-BSc I think they called it and you’d do one special subject. Our special, I was up at Aberdeen on that and my special subject was navigation and you did the, it was the NatPhil they called it in Scotland. Natural philosophy which was physics. So just did the physics and navigation and that and it was a six month course taking me to March ’42. You were cadets on that. You only had cadet’s uniform. I can’t remember much about it now. But then in March ’42 I’d finished and then we went to ACRC. Oh, I’ve got it here. Yes. Aircrew Reception Centre in London. This was in big blocks of flats around St John’s Wood and Lords Cricket Ground.
Interviewer: I know it.
MP: In that area.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: According to this yes I was there from [pause] ah until the 3rd of May so it will be sometime in March. I was only there probably about two or three weeks. And then we went to Grading School which was at Desford, near Leicester.
Interviewer: Were you doing lots of sort of tests and things? Were they sort of —
MP: Oh, at ACRC. No, we didn’t. Wait a minute. At ACRC Aircrew Receiving Centre because wait a minute there’s an ACDW somewhere. Oh, I’ve got that here as well. Yes. It might have only been a week in London. Then we went to Brighton to ACDW. Aircrew something wing. But, oh because we’d been on the university short course we were, I’ve got a feeling we were made LACs immediately.
Interviewer: Leading aircraftsmen.
MP: Yes. Leading aircraftsmen I think. Whereas the others were just AC2s which meant we might have got sixpence a day more or something like that. The pay I think was seven and six a day. Oh no. Five shillings a day until we started flying and then it went up to seven and six a day. Then at Desford was a Grading School which lasted for just under three weeks. You had to do I think you did twelve hours of flying. There was at that stage there was no specific length of time you had to fly before you could go solo. I know one of the fellows on our course went solo after two hours instruction.
Interviewer: God [laughs] this was in what? Tiger moths?
MP: Tiger Moths. Yes.
Interviewer: Ok.
MP: I think most of us went solo around, if you hadn’t gone solo by six hours you were getting very doubtful as to whether you would be graded for pilot. But certainly you had to go solo before your twelve hours. I don’t know how many [pause] oh maybe I’ve got it down here. It might even say. No, it won’t. This is the Canadian one so I haven’t got a logbook for what happened at Grading School. About, I think it was just over six hours. Six, seven or eight hours and then you’d have to do, you’d, then you’d have another instruction and go up. You had to do solo spins. You had to do some aerobatics solo. And then when you’d done twelve hours then you were graded.
Interviewer: And if you hadn’t learned by then hard luck —
MP: If you weren’t going to make a pilot by then you were graded to something else. One other person on the course who failed to make the grade was posted immediately as air gunner where I think they did about six weeks course and then he was on operations two months later. Whereas it took me [pause] where have we got to? March. May ’42. It took me June, July, August, September. It took me two years four months —
Interviewer: Gosh.
MP: To reach operations as pilot. Which is the difference between gunners and pilots on length of training.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: So, the grading course. At the end of the grading course went to, I think to Manchester or [pause – pages rustling]
Interviewer: Is it at the back —
MP: At the back.
Interviewer: It’s in the back isn’t it?
MP: Yes. To Manchester. Aircrew Disposal Centre I think. ACDC Manchester and we were there for more than three, oh no that’s three months from joining. Going to Manchester. Probably there about four weeks waiting for a ship to go across to Canada and went across on the Queen Mary. Then went to —
Interviewer: What was [pause] the Queen Mary? It was the Queen Elizabeth that was launched during wartime. The Queen Mary had been launched before that.
MP: Yes. The Queen Mary had been launched about 1937 I think.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And been in service [unclear]
Interviewer: Such a high speed wasn’t it? It went over.
MP: Oh yes. They cruised I think about thirty, thirty one, thirty two knots and they kept away from the subs and anything at all through their speed. I don’t know where the Queen Elizabeth came in. It must have been fairly early in the war. ’40 or ’41 maybe. ’41 I think.
Interviewer: I remember you saying was it the Queen Elizabeth or the Queen Mary that was a sort of petrol rainbow in the front or something? It was because of the spray.
MP: You’re right. Yes. I mean probably all ships had that but at the speed they were going in there is a fine plume of spray and the sun glints against it so there’s a rainbow in it. Some [pause] oh this might be interesting. Let me think now. When we joined the Queen Mary the Navy were in charge of light armed, light anti-aircraft on board, on deck. They were probably labelled because I think they’d got maybe a six inch gun. One on the stern or the bow I forget but they had .5 Brownings, twin Brownings, turrets. I suppose you’d call them turrets. Mounted maybe ten of them or so that were used around the ship. Now the Navy wanted volunteers to man these guns. So again, thinking that if you were on a gun crew well it might be interesting anyway if you were on a gun crew you’d avoid a lot of other things like peeling potatoes and washing up.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Things like that. So I volunteered for that. The Naval arrangement was that one would be on duty manning the guns for four hours on, eight hours off. If there was an action stations or air raid warning or whatever they called it then there were three for each pair of guns. The other two would have to race up to do the reloading. You had to have one reloading each gun. So one would fire and the other two would reload. So there were three for the gun. That meant that the other two were coming up in what was officially their rest period. So just four hours on, eight hours off and this would go right through of course. Three and two. Shortly before we sailed a large bunch of RAF air gunners came on board. I don’t quite know what they were doing. Whether they were going for to be retrained as pilots or what but they were trained air gunners and there was so many of them the RAF took over manning these guns. The RAF system was somewhat simple. Somewhat [pause] well easier to do I suppose. They had enough for one man, no three men on at a time so there were always three there and the RAF did two hours on and twelve hours off because they’d got so many of them.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Well, as I had already volunteered to be on the gun party my name was down for that. But because I wasn’t a trained air gunner the RAF didn’t want me for manning the guns. So I didn’t have any other duties. I wasn’t given any other duties because I was gun crew as far as they were concerned. Yes, so it was a very pleasant voyage. The weather was fantastic. As always I was a bit seasick pretty soon after we set sail because it was a little bit choppy but then the weather was fantastic. In the early hours of the morning the water was so still you could see reflections in it. Absolutely dead calm and then looking out you’d see there was obviously a slight bit of wind and you’d see slight ruffling in the water you know and just an the odd patch but the rest was an absolute millpond.
Interviewer: So was any other escorts with it or —
MP: Oh, they never travelled with any escorts at all.
Interviewer: They were so fast.
MP: Oh yes. They entirely went on their own. I mean no convoys or anything like that at all.
Interviewer: It was supposed to be that they went fast. They could go fast and the torpedoes eventually outran them or something.
MP: I think they probably could. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: They zigzagged all the way.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yes.
MP: And what it was they went fairly far south. That’s why the weather was so good. I mean I don’t know how far south we went. Not as far as the tropics I shouldn’t think but a good way south. And we came [pause] yes into New York. We landed in New York. Did we?
Interviewer: Statue of Liberty.
MP: New York? New York or Halifax? Good lord. I can’t remember now. I think it was New York [pause] I can’t remember.
Interviewer: No.
MP: No. No matter. No, maybe, maybe it was Halifax in Canada because that’s the nearest one. Halifax then to Moncton which is in New Brunswick.
Interviewer: Yes. I’ve been there. I think I’ve been to Halifax.
MP: Have you really?
Interviewer: I went up Prince Edward Island and around there when I was —
MP: I’ve forgotten that.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: Oh yes. Anyway, that, oh then at Moncton again great fun at Moncton. We were there for probably a month waiting for vacancies in the Training Schools.
Interviewer: So, what did you do? Just sightsee or —
MP: Yes. I seem to remember whether we hired bicycles. We got hold of some bicycles. One time I seem to remember we hired a little old Ford jalopy three of us and we had that available to get around in. There were people, local people in Moncton who were very good. Moncton.
[recording paused]
MP: Well, again this will take ages. It was great fun. There were Canadians who invited aircrew out and you know go to parties with them. I seem to remember I cannot think why but [pause] oh yes I know. What did I do there? Again, there were all sorts of chores to be done. I volunteered I think for waiting in the Officer’s Mess. All that meant was I think whether you did one meal or somehow or other I just got down to having to wait for breakfast. You know, to serve breakfast. There might be a 10 o’clock. I think there was a 10 o’clock parade and if there was nothing else doing as I was a waiter and had already done my breakfast stint I was free for the rest of the day until 8 o’clock the following morning. So, we could go off and do anything at all. I’ve got a feeling you had to be in by midnight. It was usually midnight for other ranks all the way through.
Interviewer: Where’s Moncton?
MP: Moncton in New Brunswick.
Interviewer: Oh right. So, it’s over — Yes.
MP: It’s over the northeast of Canada. Why there was such a hold up was because we’re now, this is ’42. March, April, May, June. Where are we? May. Oh no. This is through, this was through August ’42. I can’t remember why but I think the training which had been going on down in the southern States. Pensacola was one of the main places in Florida and there were, the Americans because they were building up their own having come into the war in December ’41 they were stopping taking the RAF. Training the RAF. So instead of being able to send a lot down to the States they were having to find spaces for them on the Canadian courses. They weren’t stopping completely but they were, they were cutting down enormously. And then I got posted to the Canadian Air Force at High River in Alberta. Or EFTS. That’s Elementary Flying Training School on Tiger Moths again. The Canadian Tiger Moths were a little bit different from the British ones. Canadian Tiger Moths had cockpits. Had covered cockpits. Had [pause] and I forget what else they had but I don’t think they had electric starters. I think somebody still had to swing the prop. Oh, they had brakes. Yes. I’m sure they had brakes. They probably had a tail wheel instead of a skid. The British ones just had no breaks at all. You zigzagged to taxi and you had to make sure that you had stopped in time. Had enough room to stop. That sort of thing. Whereas the Canadians had, you know had these cockpits. So, the EFTS lasted for nine, ten, eleven. Two months and two weeks or so. Probably, what’s that? Maybe a ten week course. I can’t remember how many hours you had to do on that but I could find it out. Then from there I went to Macleod. Another, Number 7 SFTS Service Flying Training School also in Alberta, fairly near Calgary and it was from the 21st of November to the 19th of March, which is December, January, February, March. Nearly four months. I think it was a sixteen week course. Something like that. In the middle of that came Christmas.
Interviewer: Was this still Tiger Moths? Or was it —
MP: Oh no. This was on Ansons. And of course, the Canadian Anson is somewhat different from a British Anson. The British Anson you had to wind the wheels up. The Canadian Ansons had hydraulic operated wheels.
Interviewer: Were you flying an Anson then in Britain? Had you?
MP: No. I mean in Britain only Tiger Moths.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: But I mean everybody knew about the Ansons.
Interviewer: Knew. I see. Right.
MP: Ansons were Ansons and you wound the wheels up. Then during that time over Christmas, either Christmas or New Year all the, all the RAF people on Canadian stations and on any RAF stations as well were entertained in the Rockies. At Nelson in the Rockies where we went for two or three nights. Stayed with people up there and you either went over Christmas or over New Year. I think I went over new year. I believe we had Christmas in camp at Macleod. And during that sixteen weeks except for this time over Christmas and New Year if I remember rightly I mean there was flying every day, seven days a week, Ground School probably six days a week. Six mornings a week. You either, you had Ground School in the morning and fly in the afternoon or the other way around. But on Sundays there was no Ground School but you were up in the hangars all day for flying. I think maybe on Saturday we stopped early. Maybe at 4 o’clock instead of the usual 6 o’clock. So you had a fairly concentrated six day weeks. At the end of that got my wings. Oh, you’ve got it down here. I was then commissioned probably on the 19th of March it looks like from this. Yes. And was then sent to GRS. General [pause] General Reconnaissance School I think at Charlottetown on Prince Edward Island.
Interviewer: Oh right. I think I have been there.
MP: In actual fact because I was at a Canadian Flying School they sent me to Summerside which was the Canadian General Reconnaissance School on Prince Edward Island. Having got there they realised that I was RAF and not RCAF and so was then transferred from Summerside to Charlottetown which was the RAF one which was maybe forty or fifty miles away and the train journey took something like ten to twelve hours [laughs] I’ve never been able to understand why. And the course there was a two month course. That’s probably just over eight weeks. A two month course and on that what were they? They must have been Ansons again. Yes. There would be staff pilots and we would be doing the training and navigation which was rather more involved navigation than you did at your normal Service Flying Training School.
Interviewer: Presumably that was to be a certain amount overseas as well.
MP: Oh, it was mainly overseas. The object of these actually was for training for Coastal Command.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right.
MP: Because they wanted pilots who could navigate. They’d have a navigator yes but they wanted a pilot who could navigate as well. And that was an eight weeks course. Finished that course. Was then posted to number 111 OTU. That is Operational Training Unit at Nassau in the Bahamas and that would be to fly Liberators.
Interviewer: Oh yes.
MP: Having got there they measured our legs and claimed that mine were a half an inch too short to fly Liberators. I think they, in the previous course they’d had several swings on take-off and they reckoned it was people who couldn’t get enough pull. Couldn’t get full rudder on to stop the swing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: No question of say having a cushion behind your seat or anything to shorten the legs. They just made a rule of leg length and mine weren’t long enough. So that, there was three of us like that that were sent off the course.
Interviewer: How did you get down to Nassau?
MP: Ah. By train. I’d had, I had various trips of course. Uncle Will whom you remember. Yeah. He lived in Montreal. When we were travelling from Moncton to High River we were going through. We would go through Montreal. I don’t know whether I’d been in touch with him by telephone or whether it was by writing but somehow he knew what time we would be coming through so he was there to meet the train when we got to, came through Montreal and arranged to, you know he said well I couldn’t stay with him then but when I finished the course I managed to go and stay with him. Incidentally the date we went through must have been, it was about the 10th of September and I think it was on that occasion he might have sent it to me by post but I think he gave it to me then as we came through which was a silver cigarette case with my name and my service number on it. Which was my other rank’s number 1577654. Having finished at Macleod probably had a couple of weeks or so before having to get to Charlotte, to Summerside as it was then he, I was going to stay with him in Montreal. He unfortunately had to go into hospital for an operation but he arranged for me to stay with the people that he was living with or some friends of his and then I got in touch with Ruth Fernando in New York to say that I was free and she said, ‘Do come down and stay.’
Interviewer: Ruth. What’s the relationship with Ruth?
MP: Ruth is some vague relation. There was a person called Joyce Healey that was a second cousin of Ruth’s and a second or third cousin of my father’s.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: I’ve no idea.
Interviewer: A very great distance. Yes.
MP: Very faint. She had met, she, I mean contact with her was made with Uncle Reg who had been captain of the Queen Mary until just before the outbreak of war and had been commander in the Cunard Line. Now, when he was captain of the Mauretania I think it was the Mauretania cruising in the West Indies one of the passengers was Ruth Fernando and his wife and her husband.
Interviewer: Husband.
MP: Paul Fernando. And as I think Paul’s father had been editor of the Chicago Sun or the New York Times or something rather he had enough pull to be down to sit at the captain’s table and so they met and found that they were vaguely related. And so Uncle Reg gave me their address when I was going across there and so I made the contact that way. I think he wrote to Ruth and Ruth wrote to me. However, I had to tell Ruth that I couldn’t get there unless I had fifty dollars American currency. They’d tightened up very much on the currency business and so Ruth wired it straight back to me. And as I was with people who were friends of Wilfred I was staying with in Montreal he was a bank manager it was fairly easy to get it through his bank. I thought I could have got the fifty dollars from him but he was an absolute stickler. He would not produce fifty dollars unless it was backed by the Americans. So having got down to the Bahamas having been sent off I had about a week in Nassau, came back again. Went to stay with Ruth again. And after various things came back to this country and back on the Queen Mary again. That’s enough for now I reckon.
[recording paused]
MP: That was an original interview for [pause] I forget what they call it. I think it might, no it might have been for grading at some stage. Probably having done the course at Aberdeen which did specialise in navigation and they asked me what I wanted to be and I said, ‘I want to be a navigator.’ ‘Don’t you want to be a pilot?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t mind being a pilot but navigation interests me. I’d like to be a navigator.’ ‘Oh, we’ll put you down as a pilot then.’ Whereas people who went for the grading.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: Say, ‘What do you want?’ ‘I want to be a pilot.’ Didn’t want to be anything else. Wanted to be a pilot. Must be a pilot. ‘Air gunner,’ they said. Oh no. Air gunner. And this seemed to happen.
Interviewer: I wonder if it’s because a pilot has to do navigation anyway. So that if you already had some knowledge and keenness on navigation you had shown, you know that you were keen on not the exciting I’m in charge bit but you know that was something that actually was more beneficial.
MP: A pilot has to have navigation anyway. Yes, you have your Ground School. You have to have a certain amount of navigation but I mean once you get on to, on bombers the pilot didn’t navigate.
Interviewer: Why, at what stage —
MP: It might be useful to have a bit of a clue about navigation but if you lost a navigator at least the pilot could do something. But there was all sorts of radio, radio aids they could use rather than —
Interviewer: Right.
MP: The actual navigation.
Interviewer: So at what stage. I mean at what stage was the difference between becoming a fighter pilot and a bomber pilot? That must have been very early on.
MP: Oh yes. That would be after EFTS.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: Elementary Flying Training School was on Tiger Moths.
Interviewer: Was that the very first one?
MP: Well, yes.
Interviewer: After [unclear]
MP: Well, you did that in Desford. No. That was a Grading School.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: That was Tiger Moths.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: But then Elementary Flying Training School led to the High River one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: Which everyone did the EFTS somewhere on —
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: I think it was always on Tiger Moths. Then I can’t remember whether they had any other aircraft. The Americans probably didn’t use Tiger Moths. I forget what they used. But after that they would then grade you, well grade again whether you were to go on to single engine SFTS or twin engine SFTS.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Basically the twin engine would be more for becoming bombers.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And, or Coastal Command. A single engine would be Fighter Command. Or of course any other single engine Command. Single engine aircraft.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And the single engine aircraft they were using were Harvards.
Interviewer: The single engine.
MP: Single engine were Harvards.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And so whereas Macleod was a twin engine school on Ansons whereas I forget where the single engine ones were. I mean there were, there were lots of them around the area.
Interviewer: So how would they class it? How would they decide between the two? I mean was there any choice from your point of view which direction you went in? Was it vacancy?
MP: Luckily no. No. You were just posted. It would no doubt have been on the basis of assessments. Ongoing instructor’s assessments. I don’t know what [pause] I’ve got an assessment here for SFTS. Oh, maybe they’re here. Let’s have a look [pause] Endorsements. “For solo flying I have read and understood station flying orders, the file of information for pilots and notices for pilots,” dated the 4th of October 1942 and I had to sign that. That’s before. Sorry, that’s before solo flying and there’s another one before flying solo [laughs] It’s very odd, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Subtle distinction.
MP: I think the first one was before solo flying. Before going up solo for the first time.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: The next one is probably before flying solo and then it gives the different types of aircraft.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
MP: I’ve got down here is DH82. That’s a Tiger Moth. Endurance. I think you had to know the endurance of the aircraft. Yes, and how long, basically, “I have been instructed and fully understand the operation of the hydraulic gears, gasoline and brake systems.” I like that for a Tiger Moth. “And I am familiar with the cockpit drill, emergency exit, fire extinguishing gear and I know the safe endurance with full tanks be indicated below for the type of aircraft noted.” So I’ve got that here for the DH82. Tiger Moth. The 2nd of October ’42 Avro Anson too. It was at Macleod 28th of November ’42. And then the Oxford 13th of [pause] this is very odd, 13th of October ’42. I wonder whether I’ve got the dates wrong. Probably should be ’43 because Oxfords we flew when we got back to this country again. I think they were Ansons.
Interviewer: Some photos, some negatives you took in the Rockies.
MP: Oh, will be. Yes. 28th of the 11th ’42. “I have noted and know where the authorised low flying area and the authorised forced landing field are located at the Schools indicated below.”
Interviewer: So they, they were presumably decide on some sort of grounds that you were [pause] presumably they were different sorts of abilities, you know. I would have thought ease of reaction probably.
MP: Well, yes. You say you think that maybe navigation would be, because single engine pilots obviously needs more navigation than a twin engine pilot.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: But in a way it’s a different sort of navigation I suppose. Single engine are more or less on the radio and —
Interviewer: There’s also a thing that in a bomber you’d be working as a, as a part of a team. You’d be commanding other people whereas in a fighter. Well, I suppose, I mean a group [unclear] would be in charge of a squadron or something like that.
MP: Oh, it could be like that.
Interviewer: And a bomber, but the Americans had a thing didn’t they that the captain of the aircraft wasn’t necessarily the pilot.
MP: Oh, the same with the Navy.
Interviewer: What? Oh, do you mean in the aircraft?
MP: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: In the aircraft.
Interviewer: In the what? Flying Boats and things like that.
MP: The Navy look on a pilot as being the driver.
Interviewer: Right. Yes.
MP: Whereas the, like the helmsmen whereas the captain’s on the bridge.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: Controlling everything. And so often in the Navy the, either the navigator or, I don’t think they had a specific post as captain who didn’t have any other jobs.
Interviewer: Jobs. Yes.
MP: But very often the navigator or the observer I think you’d probably call them then would be the captain of the aircraft. They didn’t want a skilled man wasting. I mean a skilled intelligent man just wasting his time just driving the thing.
Interviewer: Driving. Yes. Yes.
MP: And so it was the captain who —
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: Had command who —
Interviewer: Had time to think. Yes.
MP: Yes. That was the idea.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Whereas the RAF always had the pilot as the captain of the aircraft and so you could have a sergeant pilot captain of the aircraft but have a squadron leader navigator but the sergeant pilot was the captain of the aircraft.
Interviewer: And as captain he’s in charge.
MP: He’s in charge. Yes.
Interviewer: But when they get off the plane.
MP: Oh yes.
Interviewer: The aircraft. Yes.
MP: Yeah.
Interviewer: Interesting.
MP: I can’t remember whether I ever had one. I think I did on one occasion I think. Oh, I wonder if it’s here. On one trip having [pause] maybe it wasn’t me. I certainly remember a squadron commander went up on one. No, not a squadron commander, a base commander. A group captain.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And a group captain as a passenger. I don’t think it was on my aircraft actually but I remember them going to that. Oh, it can’t have been on mine. No. Because he didn’t come back.
Interviewer: Oh right.
MP: He was shot down. Group Captain [Weir]. He was a Canadian and I next saw him in POW camp.
Interviewer: And so he went up as a navigator and then —
MP: Oh no. No.
Interviewer: No. He went —
MP: He would go as a passenger.
Interviewer: Passenger. Right.
MP: Yeah. I mean this used to happen. Station commanders would feel they really ought to go and fly. You know, they felt embarrassed if they hadn’t actually been flying.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: So they’d go up. They’d choose a trip and they’d go and fly and if they got shot down well too bad. It seemed a bit of a waste.
Interviewer: If they weren’t actually doing anything other than being a passenger. Still, on the other hand I suppose it gave them feedback as to conditions and things like that.
MP: Well, that sort of thing. I mean, I remember they took the BBC then of course sometimes.
Interviewer: Yes. You can see a reason for that, you know. Reporters and so on you know to actually record it and presumably occasionally some technician or people. Sort of, boffins, you know doing radar and stuff like that may well have —
MP: Yeah.
Interviewer: Occasionally to test stuff and that.
MP: Actually, my first trip was with, you do your first trip as second pilot. I went up with Flying Officer Hart. Unfortunately, I haven’t got all the crews names on this. I just put it down as crew time. Oh unless —
Interviewer: It’s a long training. Was it two years?
MP: Well yeah. Let’s see. I’ve got a thing here from Training Wing. Oh, 14 OTU. What is it? [unclear] Assessment. That’s a medium bomber. I always got average really. As a medium bomber pilot average. OTU. This is on Wellingtons. I had to take an aptitude test. Oh, a decompression tent in this unit. Maximum height twenty six thousand feet. Proficiency as pilot on type. Average on Oxfords. Everything was always average.
Interviewer: Except you were slightly better on actual bombing wasn’t it?
[unclear]
MP: Oh well, that was just natural. I was just drinking my coffee. Let’s just. There’s a lot on Oxfords. Petrol study. I [unclear] to be certified fully on petrol over ignition and hydraulic system including emergency system. Action then to fly and [banding] the Oxford type of aircraft. Ah well. LAC [pause] Ah, well, let’s see. This is where I’ve got a summary of flying assessments for EFTS course. Sixty [pause] Oh, course sixty nine. March the 19th 1943. Single and middle. Just gives time on air types. Assessment on ability. The assessment is exceptional, above the average or below the average. As a twin engine pilot average. As pilot navigator/navigator above average. So I got that. “Any point in flying or airmanship which should be watched?” “His flying has been just average. His instrument work fairly weak.” I’m really trying to see whether there’s anything after EFTS. On EFTS there it was a civilian school. I mean the instructors were civilians. One fellow who [pause] certified I had thirty five hours. Oh at SFTS was [unclear] [pause – pages turning] There doesn’t seem to be any assessment here at all. What were we going to say? You see it’s all down here. There’s Mr Davidson, Mr Shaw, Mr Cole but then it was signed by Pilot Officer Bishop who was a Canadian officer so [pause] [unclear] Chief Supervisor. Must have been J Patton, system CFI. One of these Canadian pilots he reckoned he’d never fly properly unless he’d probably had about a half a bottle of whisky.
Interviewer: Is that an instructor?
MP: Instructor. Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Yeah. He’d want to go up and do steep turns around the grain silos. A couple of grain silos, I don’t know maybe fifty feet apart and he would do steep turns around one, going between the two. Wingtip maybe ten feet from the ground as he was doing sort of steep turns around the grain.
Interviewer: Around and around and around.
MP: Around and around, and around and around the silos you see.
Interviewer: Gosh.
MP: And he reckoned he could only do it when he was pretty sloshed.
Interviewer: I’m not surprised [laughs]
MP: His poor pupils had a bit of a hair-raising time.
Interviewer: They didn’t have to go up with him when he was doing that every day.
MP: Oh yeah. I mean, it would just be the one whose up with that, you know.
Interviewer: What sort of plane that?
MP: Tiger Moth.
Interviewer: A Tiger Moth. Yeah.
MP: I mean that was the story. I never flew with him on any of these and I was told that. How true it is I’ve no idea. He survived. I mean —
Interviewer: Yeah.
Interviewer: I mean they flew by the seat of their pants. They didn’t bother with instruments or anything like that.
MP: Yeah.
MP: These instructors. They’d have to teach you to follow the instruments but they didn’t need them at all [pause] Well, coffee done.
[recording paused]
MP: In New York. So I had khaki shorts and shirt and —
Other: Which you’ve still got.
MP: Probably a form of cap. A blue cap. Probably that. The fella who drove, the girl whose car it was who always let the fellow drive it I got [pause] was he, he was in khaki I think with a peaked blue cap driving it. That was it. The other fellow in the back also was in khaki with a fore and aft cap. That was one driver and the two of us. So we looked the same in the back. The driver who was in khaki was there. One fellow hadn’t got khaki. He had full blue equipment with a peak cap. He sat in the middle in the back.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And the girl sat in the passenger seat. The coastal area was all barred to civilians. American SPs and everything on the, you know bars and things and we’d drive along. We’d drive up and they’d look at this and look at this fellow sitting up there in the back you see as if we were escorting him. They’d jump back and they pulled the wire and they saluted. He’d salute them you see. Straight through. Down to the beach. Spend the day on the beach swimming and everything. Back in the car, back through the gates saluting as we came. It was fantastic. I don’t know whether we were ever actually asked for any passes. We might have been. I mean we would have ordinary identity cards. I remember being in a bar there too again wearing shorts which of course in those days nobody wore shorts at all. But they did have a rule. After 6 o’clock you had to wear a tie. Officers had to wear a tie in any bar out in the town and the of course the Americans never had their sleeves rolled up. So their khaki would be long trousers and sleeves rolled down.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: After 6 o’clock wear a tie. I was sitting in a bar one evening with I might have had a suit on. I probably [unclear] I don’t know if I had but certainly probably had a tie on at that stage and the American SPs came in. Looked up. Saw me there without a tie on you see. Came up. Were just going to say something. They looked down and saw that I had shorts on. I mean that absolutely rocked it [laughs] Who on earth can this be, you see. So they left me there. I mean they’d never seen it before.
Interviewer: Never existed as uniform. Yes.
MP: Right [laughs]
Interviewer: They were all excited. Your knees are enough to [laughs]
Other: I haven’t heard that story before.
MP: Actually, later on when I was in Paris after the war I had this tropical kit. It was very hot in Paris and I used to wear my shorts. Tropical kit was not allowed something like north of the thirty fifth parallel. The crazy sort of service that would be. You could probably wear them down in Marseilles but you couldn’t wear khaki.
Interviewer: No.
MP: Paris was not an area for tropical kit. So you used to wear this thick heavy blue and I’d worn my khaki for a long time. I used to drive in and out of Paris. But the, what do they call it? The SP. Provost Marshall. Squadron leader. I can’t remember his name. He had to have a word with him to say well yes you can do out at the airfield but in Paris no. I was not to wear tropical kit. I had to wear a uniform and I used to change into civilian clothes I think.
Interviewer: When was that? When were you posted? How long were you in Paris then?
MP: ‘46 ‘47. No, early ’47.
Other: He was posted there just after we met.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Richard used to be in London and he had him on, had him on the telephone from Paris and me on the telephone from the college and he would put the phones together.
MP: Well, I’d got an operational line from [unclear] to, to, what was the name of the place? Uxbridge.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: [unclear] to Uxbridge and then [mum] might be on the civilian line you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And Richard going, ‘I’m sorry I can’t put the two together. I can’t cross patch you. Can I pass messages?’
Other: He never realised it was going to be serious when we met up that first time in Piccadilly Circus but you know we met at Piccadilly Circus.
Interviewer: Did you?
MP: Yeah.
Other: [unclear] shattered the warden [unclear] within his armchair when you said St Edwards.
MP: Well, he —
Other: ’Where did you two meet?’ ‘Piccadilly Circus.’
Interviewer: Under Eros.
Other: No. No. In a red suit I wore too.
MP: Richard and I had been playing squash at Uxbridge. I knew Richard was meeting mum at the Criterion was it darling?
Other: The Criterion.
MP: [unclear]
Other: [unclear] because I was so [unclear]
MP: It was so, it was a little bit late. I mean we were a little bit late.
Other: You were late. I stood outside there on Piccadilly.
MP: We used, yes, we went in by Underground. Yes, we didn’t have to use the car or that I don’t think.
Other: No.
MP: I seem to remember travelling by Underground and so we got there maybe I don’t know twenty minutes late. Maybe a half an hour.
Other: A long time to stand at Piccadilly Circus in a red suit.
MP: And mum had been waiting standing outside the Criterion waiting to —
Other: People were trying to pick me up.
MP: Just before he went Richard said, ‘Oh look, can you come with me.’ And so I —
Other: Excuse.
MP: Excused for being so late. And as we’d been playing squash.
Other: I can you imagine. That’s a picture there.
Interviewer: That’s an excuse for being late.
Other: Yes. The story of the night.
MP: That was for Richard being late that was.
Other: Yes. It was funny because then we, I think he had tickets for this big ball that was —
MP: The Pathfinder Ball wasn’t it?
Other: At the Dorchester and we got that. Then we spent the night together. Nothing happened I might say. In those days they never did.
MP: Well, with Derek.
Other: Derek Davidstow. Yes.
MP: Something might have happened there.
Other: Oh well. They were sleeping together.
MP: Derek and whatever hers was.
Other: He just, they went off to bed and left us. I think I had only known him a little while. A few days.
MP: I mean nowadays this wouldn’t happen at all would it but —
Other: No, but they went off and we were in this little sitting room.
MP: There was one bed.
Other: What’s going to happen now?
MP: There was one couch or one settee.
Other: Couch. Yeah.
MP: A bed settee.
Other: The whole thing went. Dear me, it was funny. That was quite amusing wasn’t it?
MP: As I say because I was stationed in London you see. No. I had been stationed in London and while I was there I joined the Pathfinder Club. It was only about a pound a year I think. They had, they had premises with a bar in London. I’d never been a Pathfinder but they would let other people join.
Interviewer: Join.
MP: You know. Bring in some money.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And so they had a ball, a Pathfinder Ball and I got tickets for that.
Other: It was fun really because I enjoyed that night because a lot of my school friends were in the forces and they tended to be coming home then after the war on leave probably. Not necessarily been disbanded and they’d get in touch and I was supposed to be working you know [unclear] back from the Far East [unclear] to see again. It was lovely. [unclear]
MP: The difficulty I found was that being in London people would come up and contact me when I was in [unclear] to get in touch and they would expect. Yes, I mean they would pay their wack but then expect me to pay my wack obviously.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
MP: Well, they may be up once in three months. It was happening to me a couple of times once or twice a week.
Other: I didn’t have to pay for [unclear] all and sundry. I mean we had boyfriends.
MP: I reckon that if it was just two of us together it would cost me five pounds.
Other: That was a lot then.
MP: Just for me. If it was a question of joining up and taking a girl as well it would cost me ten pounds. Of course, then ten pounds was [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
MP: I mean that was, that was a fair old whack. I mean the rate of pay then I was probably on twenty one shillings a day. So that would be seven pounds a week.
Other: When you look at our —
Interviewer: Pay.
Other: Being a pound a week but when we were first married.
Interviewer: So that was a week’s pay.
MP: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: So three times a week was —
MP: Well, not as much as two or three times. No. Once or twice a week. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Its half past Ruth. Right.
MP: But I was getting living out allowance as well which was about twenty six shillings a day or maybe thirty shillings a day. That really was interesting.
Other: Right.
MP: But the other little thing of interest was that being in the RCAF and I think all RAF in Canada while in Canada were paid Canadian rates of pay.
Interviewer: Oh yes. Yeah.
MP: Which was six dollars twenty five a day. Whereas the RAF rate was fourteen shillings. Maybe even [unclear] shillings or about three dollars fifty. So it’s double. Which is nearly double the pay. And then on the Miami do it was, I think the rates of pay I think it was rates of pay was ten dollars a day and living out allowance. So that was sixteen dollars. Seventeen. Maybe seventeen dollars a day which was, and it was four dollars.
Interviewer: In Miami.
MP: It was four dollars to the pound.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Which was four pounds a day which was twelve pounds a year or [unclear] fourteen, fifteen hundred a year.
Interviewer: And after the war you started [unclear] Yes.
MP: I mean it was, I think it was probably by about not until about 1963.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: That I was paid over a thousand a year.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: By my factory department.
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes. Because I remember when I left work and went to work at this job it was a thousand a year. Yes.
Interviewer: What? Yours was a thousand year.
Interviewer: Mine. Yes. Yes. I earned a thousand a year.
MP: Ah yes. But what I mean is having working my way up.
Interviewer: No. No. Yes.
MP: This was the first time I reached a thousand a year and I had been getting fifteen hundred a year.
Interviewer: Yeah. During the war.
MP: Sixty pounds. Fifty pounds twenty years earlier.
Interviewer: Earlier. Yes.
MP: Yeah. Without any family responsibilities then.
Interviewer: In Miami. Yes.
MP: Well, yes. Yes. And not having to pay the rent.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: Yes, you have to interview. I mean —
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes. Tell me why did you go in the RAF? [pause] Tell me where that came from.
MP: You’ve got enough there.
Interviewer: Just tell me.
MP: This is why I hate to tape this. It’s shorthand that is needed for this. You can take down whatever you want to take down and you’re not recording the whole blooming thing. [unclear] [noises] [unclear]
Interviewer: You were at school weren’t you?
MP: Oh, I see. You know most of this anyway.
Interviewer: No, I don’t necessarily. Well, you probably told me this but I can’t remember.
MP: Went in the OTC which might have become the CCF by then. I can’t remember. I joined the RAF squad because the RAF squad didn’t do much in the way of drill [laughs] or and you seemed to have a pretty easy free time in the RAF squad. Somebody came. A squadron leader I think came around. Obviously a recruiting officer came around and described the university short courses they were laying on. So I might have been in the university squad about a year then so I put my name down for that. That would probably have been in summer term 19 [pause] oh God, 1941. Yes.
Interviewer: You, so how old were you then?
MP: I was seventeen in September 1940.
Interviewer: So, you were eighteen.
MP: Oh yes. September 1940. So, during the time of Dunkirk which was June, July 1940 I was still under seventeen and therefore couldn’t have been on patrol guarding the British BEF, British Expeditionary Force which had come back from Dunkirk and were camped on Port Meadow. I don’t know. Maybe ten thousand of them. Something like that. Who during that month or so were guarded by St Edward’s boys of seventeen and over who were allowed. They carried rifles and I believe that each section leader or squad leader had ten rounds of ammunition which he held.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: With instructions to issue one round to each man.
Interviewer: Man [laughs] Here’s your, here’s your round.
MP: If the Germans came over and sent paratroops to attack the BEF [laughs] So the following term on September the 28th I was seventeen and then I could do all these things which I couldn’t do the term before. So then we used to sleep in the Armoury overnight. There was always somebody at the arm, manning the armoury. I don’t remember having any live rounds then. I remember we had bayonets because I can remember somebody catching a mouse or a rat with a bayonet. A very accurate shot he was too. That would be September ’41. Around through. Then there was what do you call it? Watching. Fire watching at night. When there was a raid, when the sirens had gone and there was a raid on there was always some, in fact, I think somebody was up all night. You were supposed to be out walking around the grounds all night. You’d do it in two hour spells. The rest of the house were sleeping on the floor in the day room. When I used to get in from that maybe 4 o’clock in the morning or something the thought of lying down on the floor was much too uncomfortable. If the all clear had gone I’d go off to bed to get some sleep. That takes us around. I left at the end of summer of ’41. At some stage I must have gone, it must have been, you had to be seventeen nine to go on the university short course so I was eighteen in the September and I started at the beginning of October.
Interviewer: So, what was the university short course? What was that?
MP: That was a six month course. You did the equivalent of a first year BSc.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Or whatever it was. What they called the inter-BSc I think they called it and you’d do one special subject. Our special, I was up at Aberdeen on that and my special subject was navigation and you did the, it was the NatPhil they called it in Scotland. Natural philosophy which was physics. So just did the physics and navigation and that and it was a six month course taking me to March ’42. You were cadets on that. You only had cadet’s uniform. I can’t remember much about it now. But then in March ’42 I’d finished and then we went to ACRC. Oh, I’ve got it here. Yes. Aircrew Reception Centre in London. This was in big blocks of flats around St John’s Wood and Lords Cricket Ground.
Interviewer: I know it.
MP: In that area.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: According to this yes I was there from [pause] ah until the 3rd of May so it will be sometime in March. I was only there probably about two or three weeks. And then we went to Grading School which was at Desford, near Leicester.
Interviewer: Were you doing lots of sort of tests and things? Were they sort of —
MP: Oh, at ACRC. No, we didn’t. Wait a minute. At ACRC Aircrew Receiving Centre because wait a minute there’s an ACDW somewhere. Oh, I’ve got that here as well. Yes. It might have only been a week in London. Then we went to Brighton to ACDW. Aircrew something wing. But, oh because we’d been on the university short course we were, I’ve got a feeling we were made LACs immediately.
Interviewer: Leading aircraftsmen.
MP: Yes. Leading aircraftsmen I think. Whereas the others were just AC2s which meant we might have got sixpence a day more or something like that. The pay I think was seven and six a day. Oh no. Five shillings a day until we started flying and then it went up to seven and six a day. Then at Desford was a Grading School which lasted for just under three weeks. You had to do I think you did twelve hours of flying. There was at that stage there was no specific length of time you had to fly before you could go solo. I know one of the fellows on our course went solo after two hours instruction.
Interviewer: God [laughs] this was in what? Tiger moths?
MP: Tiger Moths. Yes.
Interviewer: Ok.
MP: I think most of us went solo around, if you hadn’t gone solo by six hours you were getting very doubtful as to whether you would be graded for pilot. But certainly you had to go solo before your twelve hours. I don’t know how many [pause] oh maybe I’ve got it down here. It might even say. No, it won’t. This is the Canadian one so I haven’t got a logbook for what happened at Grading School. About, I think it was just over six hours. Six, seven or eight hours and then you’d have to do, you’d, then you’d have another instruction and go up. You had to do solo spins. You had to do some aerobatics solo. And then when you’d done twelve hours then you were graded.
Interviewer: And if you hadn’t learned by then hard luck —
MP: If you weren’t going to make a pilot by then you were graded to something else. One other person on the course who failed to make the grade was posted immediately as air gunner where I think they did about six weeks course and then he was on operations two months later. Whereas it took me [pause] where have we got to? March. May ’42. It took me June, July, August, September. It took me two years four months —
Interviewer: Gosh.
MP: To reach operations as pilot. Which is the difference between gunners and pilots on length of training.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: So, the grading course. At the end of the grading course went to, I think to Manchester or [pause – pages rustling]
Interviewer: Is it at the back —
MP: At the back.
Interviewer: It’s in the back isn’t it?
MP: Yes. To Manchester. Aircrew Disposal Centre I think. ACDC Manchester and we were there for more than three, oh no that’s three months from joining. Going to Manchester. Probably there about four weeks waiting for a ship to go across to Canada and went across on the Queen Mary. Then went to —
Interviewer: What was [pause] the Queen Mary? It was the Queen Elizabeth that was launched during wartime. The Queen Mary had been launched before that.
MP: Yes. The Queen Mary had been launched about 1937 I think.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And been in service [unclear]
Interviewer: Such a high speed wasn’t it? It went over.
MP: Oh yes. They cruised I think about thirty, thirty one, thirty two knots and they kept away from the subs and anything at all through their speed. I don’t know where the Queen Elizabeth came in. It must have been fairly early in the war. ’40 or ’41 maybe. ’41 I think.
Interviewer: I remember you saying was it the Queen Elizabeth or the Queen Mary that was a sort of petrol rainbow in the front or something? It was because of the spray.
MP: You’re right. Yes. I mean probably all ships had that but at the speed they were going in there is a fine plume of spray and the sun glints against it so there’s a rainbow in it. Some [pause] oh this might be interesting. Let me think now. When we joined the Queen Mary the Navy were in charge of light armed, light anti-aircraft on board, on deck. They were probably labelled because I think they’d got maybe a six inch gun. One on the stern or the bow I forget but they had .5 Brownings, twin Brownings, turrets. I suppose you’d call them turrets. Mounted maybe ten of them or so that were used around the ship. Now the Navy wanted volunteers to man these guns. So again, thinking that if you were on a gun crew well it might be interesting anyway if you were on a gun crew you’d avoid a lot of other things like peeling potatoes and washing up.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Things like that. So I volunteered for that. The Naval arrangement was that one would be on duty manning the guns for four hours on, eight hours off. If there was an action stations or air raid warning or whatever they called it then there were three for each pair of guns. The other two would have to race up to do the reloading. You had to have one reloading each gun. So one would fire and the other two would reload. So there were three for the gun. That meant that the other two were coming up in what was officially their rest period. So just four hours on, eight hours off and this would go right through of course. Three and two. Shortly before we sailed a large bunch of RAF air gunners came on board. I don’t quite know what they were doing. Whether they were going for to be retrained as pilots or what but they were trained air gunners and there was so many of them the RAF took over manning these guns. The RAF system was somewhat simple. Somewhat [pause] well easier to do I suppose. They had enough for one man, no three men on at a time so there were always three there and the RAF did two hours on and twelve hours off because they’d got so many of them.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Well, as I had already volunteered to be on the gun party my name was down for that. But because I wasn’t a trained air gunner the RAF didn’t want me for manning the guns. So I didn’t have any other duties. I wasn’t given any other duties because I was gun crew as far as they were concerned. Yes, so it was a very pleasant voyage. The weather was fantastic. As always I was a bit seasick pretty soon after we set sail because it was a little bit choppy but then the weather was fantastic. In the early hours of the morning the water was so still you could see reflections in it. Absolutely dead calm and then looking out you’d see there was obviously a slight bit of wind and you’d see slight ruffling in the water you know and just an the odd patch but the rest was an absolute millpond.
Interviewer: So was any other escorts with it or —
MP: Oh, they never travelled with any escorts at all.
Interviewer: They were so fast.
MP: Oh yes. They entirely went on their own. I mean no convoys or anything like that at all.
Interviewer: It was supposed to be that they went fast. They could go fast and the torpedoes eventually outran them or something.
MP: I think they probably could. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: They zigzagged all the way.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yes.
MP: And what it was they went fairly far south. That’s why the weather was so good. I mean I don’t know how far south we went. Not as far as the tropics I shouldn’t think but a good way south. And we came [pause] yes into New York. We landed in New York. Did we?
Interviewer: Statue of Liberty.
MP: New York? New York or Halifax? Good lord. I can’t remember now. I think it was New York [pause] I can’t remember.
Interviewer: No.
MP: No. No matter. No, maybe, maybe it was Halifax in Canada because that’s the nearest one. Halifax then to Moncton which is in New Brunswick.
Interviewer: Yes. I’ve been there. I think I’ve been to Halifax.
MP: Have you really?
Interviewer: I went up Prince Edward Island and around there when I was —
MP: I’ve forgotten that.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: Oh yes. Anyway, that, oh then at Moncton again great fun at Moncton. We were there for probably a month waiting for vacancies in the Training Schools.
Interviewer: So, what did you do? Just sightsee or —
MP: Yes. I seem to remember whether we hired bicycles. We got hold of some bicycles. One time I seem to remember we hired a little old Ford jalopy three of us and we had that available to get around in. There were people, local people in Moncton who were very good. Moncton.
[recording paused]
MP: Well, again this will take ages. It was great fun. There were Canadians who invited aircrew out and you know go to parties with them. I seem to remember I cannot think why but [pause] oh yes I know. What did I do there? Again, there were all sorts of chores to be done. I volunteered I think for waiting in the Officer’s Mess. All that meant was I think whether you did one meal or somehow or other I just got down to having to wait for breakfast. You know, to serve breakfast. There might be a 10 o’clock. I think there was a 10 o’clock parade and if there was nothing else doing as I was a waiter and had already done my breakfast stint I was free for the rest of the day until 8 o’clock the following morning. So, we could go off and do anything at all. I’ve got a feeling you had to be in by midnight. It was usually midnight for other ranks all the way through.
Interviewer: Where’s Moncton?
MP: Moncton in New Brunswick.
Interviewer: Oh right. So, it’s over — Yes.
MP: It’s over the northeast of Canada. Why there was such a hold up was because we’re now, this is ’42. March, April, May, June. Where are we? May. Oh no. This is through, this was through August ’42. I can’t remember why but I think the training which had been going on down in the southern States. Pensacola was one of the main places in Florida and there were, the Americans because they were building up their own having come into the war in December ’41 they were stopping taking the RAF. Training the RAF. So instead of being able to send a lot down to the States they were having to find spaces for them on the Canadian courses. They weren’t stopping completely but they were, they were cutting down enormously. And then I got posted to the Canadian Air Force at High River in Alberta. Or EFTS. That’s Elementary Flying Training School on Tiger Moths again. The Canadian Tiger Moths were a little bit different from the British ones. Canadian Tiger Moths had cockpits. Had covered cockpits. Had [pause] and I forget what else they had but I don’t think they had electric starters. I think somebody still had to swing the prop. Oh, they had brakes. Yes. I’m sure they had brakes. They probably had a tail wheel instead of a skid. The British ones just had no breaks at all. You zigzagged to taxi and you had to make sure that you had stopped in time. Had enough room to stop. That sort of thing. Whereas the Canadians had, you know had these cockpits. So, the EFTS lasted for nine, ten, eleven. Two months and two weeks or so. Probably, what’s that? Maybe a ten week course. I can’t remember how many hours you had to do on that but I could find it out. Then from there I went to Macleod. Another, Number 7 SFTS Service Flying Training School also in Alberta, fairly near Calgary and it was from the 21st of November to the 19th of March, which is December, January, February, March. Nearly four months. I think it was a sixteen week course. Something like that. In the middle of that came Christmas.
Interviewer: Was this still Tiger Moths? Or was it —
MP: Oh no. This was on Ansons. And of course, the Canadian Anson is somewhat different from a British Anson. The British Anson you had to wind the wheels up. The Canadian Ansons had hydraulic operated wheels.
Interviewer: Were you flying an Anson then in Britain? Had you?
MP: No. I mean in Britain only Tiger Moths.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: But I mean everybody knew about the Ansons.
Interviewer: Knew. I see. Right.
MP: Ansons were Ansons and you wound the wheels up. Then during that time over Christmas, either Christmas or New Year all the, all the RAF people on Canadian stations and on any RAF stations as well were entertained in the Rockies. At Nelson in the Rockies where we went for two or three nights. Stayed with people up there and you either went over Christmas or over New Year. I think I went over new year. I believe we had Christmas in camp at Macleod. And during that sixteen weeks except for this time over Christmas and New Year if I remember rightly I mean there was flying every day, seven days a week, Ground School probably six days a week. Six mornings a week. You either, you had Ground School in the morning and fly in the afternoon or the other way around. But on Sundays there was no Ground School but you were up in the hangars all day for flying. I think maybe on Saturday we stopped early. Maybe at 4 o’clock instead of the usual 6 o’clock. So you had a fairly concentrated six day weeks. At the end of that got my wings. Oh, you’ve got it down here. I was then commissioned probably on the 19th of March it looks like from this. Yes. And was then sent to GRS. General [pause] General Reconnaissance School I think at Charlottetown on Prince Edward Island.
Interviewer: Oh right. I think I have been there.
MP: In actual fact because I was at a Canadian Flying School they sent me to Summerside which was the Canadian General Reconnaissance School on Prince Edward Island. Having got there they realised that I was RAF and not RCAF and so was then transferred from Summerside to Charlottetown which was the RAF one which was maybe forty or fifty miles away and the train journey took something like ten to twelve hours [laughs] I’ve never been able to understand why. And the course there was a two month course. That’s probably just over eight weeks. A two month course and on that what were they? They must have been Ansons again. Yes. There would be staff pilots and we would be doing the training and navigation which was rather more involved navigation than you did at your normal Service Flying Training School.
Interviewer: Presumably that was to be a certain amount overseas as well.
MP: Oh, it was mainly overseas. The object of these actually was for training for Coastal Command.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right.
MP: Because they wanted pilots who could navigate. They’d have a navigator yes but they wanted a pilot who could navigate as well. And that was an eight weeks course. Finished that course. Was then posted to number 111 OTU. That is Operational Training Unit at Nassau in the Bahamas and that would be to fly Liberators.
Interviewer: Oh yes.
MP: Having got there they measured our legs and claimed that mine were a half an inch too short to fly Liberators. I think they, in the previous course they’d had several swings on take-off and they reckoned it was people who couldn’t get enough pull. Couldn’t get full rudder on to stop the swing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: No question of say having a cushion behind your seat or anything to shorten the legs. They just made a rule of leg length and mine weren’t long enough. So that, there was three of us like that that were sent off the course.
Interviewer: How did you get down to Nassau?
MP: Ah. By train. I’d had, I had various trips of course. Uncle Will whom you remember. Yeah. He lived in Montreal. When we were travelling from Moncton to High River we were going through. We would go through Montreal. I don’t know whether I’d been in touch with him by telephone or whether it was by writing but somehow he knew what time we would be coming through so he was there to meet the train when we got to, came through Montreal and arranged to, you know he said well I couldn’t stay with him then but when I finished the course I managed to go and stay with him. Incidentally the date we went through must have been, it was about the 10th of September and I think it was on that occasion he might have sent it to me by post but I think he gave it to me then as we came through which was a silver cigarette case with my name and my service number on it. Which was my other rank’s number 1577654. Having finished at Macleod probably had a couple of weeks or so before having to get to Charlotte, to Summerside as it was then he, I was going to stay with him in Montreal. He unfortunately had to go into hospital for an operation but he arranged for me to stay with the people that he was living with or some friends of his and then I got in touch with Ruth Fernando in New York to say that I was free and she said, ‘Do come down and stay.’
Interviewer: Ruth. What’s the relationship with Ruth?
MP: Ruth is some vague relation. There was a person called Joyce Healey that was a second cousin of Ruth’s and a second or third cousin of my father’s.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: I’ve no idea.
Interviewer: A very great distance. Yes.
MP: Very faint. She had met, she, I mean contact with her was made with Uncle Reg who had been captain of the Queen Mary until just before the outbreak of war and had been commander in the Cunard Line. Now, when he was captain of the Mauretania I think it was the Mauretania cruising in the West Indies one of the passengers was Ruth Fernando and his wife and her husband.
Interviewer: Husband.
MP: Paul Fernando. And as I think Paul’s father had been editor of the Chicago Sun or the New York Times or something rather he had enough pull to be down to sit at the captain’s table and so they met and found that they were vaguely related. And so Uncle Reg gave me their address when I was going across there and so I made the contact that way. I think he wrote to Ruth and Ruth wrote to me. However, I had to tell Ruth that I couldn’t get there unless I had fifty dollars American currency. They’d tightened up very much on the currency business and so Ruth wired it straight back to me. And as I was with people who were friends of Wilfred I was staying with in Montreal he was a bank manager it was fairly easy to get it through his bank. I thought I could have got the fifty dollars from him but he was an absolute stickler. He would not produce fifty dollars unless it was backed by the Americans. So having got down to the Bahamas having been sent off I had about a week in Nassau, came back again. Went to stay with Ruth again. And after various things came back to this country and back on the Queen Mary again. That’s enough for now I reckon.
[recording paused]
MP: That was an original interview for [pause] I forget what they call it. I think it might, no it might have been for grading at some stage. Probably having done the course at Aberdeen which did specialise in navigation and they asked me what I wanted to be and I said, ‘I want to be a navigator.’ ‘Don’t you want to be a pilot?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t mind being a pilot but navigation interests me. I’d like to be a navigator.’ ‘Oh, we’ll put you down as a pilot then.’ Whereas people who went for the grading.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: Say, ‘What do you want?’ ‘I want to be a pilot.’ Didn’t want to be anything else. Wanted to be a pilot. Must be a pilot. ‘Air gunner,’ they said. Oh no. Air gunner. And this seemed to happen.
Interviewer: I wonder if it’s because a pilot has to do navigation anyway. So that if you already had some knowledge and keenness on navigation you had shown, you know that you were keen on not the exciting I’m in charge bit but you know that was something that actually was more beneficial.
MP: A pilot has to have navigation anyway. Yes, you have your Ground School. You have to have a certain amount of navigation but I mean once you get on to, on bombers the pilot didn’t navigate.
Interviewer: Why, at what stage —
MP: It might be useful to have a bit of a clue about navigation but if you lost a navigator at least the pilot could do something. But there was all sorts of radio, radio aids they could use rather than —
Interviewer: Right.
MP: The actual navigation.
Interviewer: So at what stage. I mean at what stage was the difference between becoming a fighter pilot and a bomber pilot? That must have been very early on.
MP: Oh yes. That would be after EFTS.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: Elementary Flying Training School was on Tiger Moths.
Interviewer: Was that the very first one?
MP: Well, yes.
Interviewer: After [unclear]
MP: Well, you did that in Desford. No. That was a Grading School.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: That was Tiger Moths.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: But then Elementary Flying Training School led to the High River one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: Which everyone did the EFTS somewhere on —
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: I think it was always on Tiger Moths. Then I can’t remember whether they had any other aircraft. The Americans probably didn’t use Tiger Moths. I forget what they used. But after that they would then grade you, well grade again whether you were to go on to single engine SFTS or twin engine SFTS.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Basically the twin engine would be more for becoming bombers.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And, or Coastal Command. A single engine would be Fighter Command. Or of course any other single engine Command. Single engine aircraft.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And the single engine aircraft they were using were Harvards.
Interviewer: The single engine.
MP: Single engine were Harvards.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And so whereas Macleod was a twin engine school on Ansons whereas I forget where the single engine ones were. I mean there were, there were lots of them around the area.
Interviewer: So how would they class it? How would they decide between the two? I mean was there any choice from your point of view which direction you went in? Was it vacancy?
MP: Luckily no. No. You were just posted. It would no doubt have been on the basis of assessments. Ongoing instructor’s assessments. I don’t know what [pause] I’ve got an assessment here for SFTS. Oh, maybe they’re here. Let’s have a look [pause] Endorsements. “For solo flying I have read and understood station flying orders, the file of information for pilots and notices for pilots,” dated the 4th of October 1942 and I had to sign that. That’s before. Sorry, that’s before solo flying and there’s another one before flying solo [laughs] It’s very odd, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Subtle distinction.
MP: I think the first one was before solo flying. Before going up solo for the first time.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: The next one is probably before flying solo and then it gives the different types of aircraft.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
MP: I’ve got down here is DH82. That’s a Tiger Moth. Endurance. I think you had to know the endurance of the aircraft. Yes, and how long, basically, “I have been instructed and fully understand the operation of the hydraulic gears, gasoline and brake systems.” I like that for a Tiger Moth. “And I am familiar with the cockpit drill, emergency exit, fire extinguishing gear and I know the safe endurance with full tanks be indicated below for the type of aircraft noted.” So I’ve got that here for the DH82. Tiger Moth. The 2nd of October ’42 Avro Anson too. It was at Macleod 28th of November ’42. And then the Oxford 13th of [pause] this is very odd, 13th of October ’42. I wonder whether I’ve got the dates wrong. Probably should be ’43 because Oxfords we flew when we got back to this country again. I think they were Ansons.
Interviewer: Some photos, some negatives you took in the Rockies.
MP: Oh, will be. Yes. 28th of the 11th ’42. “I have noted and know where the authorised low flying area and the authorised forced landing field are located at the Schools indicated below.”
Interviewer: So they, they were presumably decide on some sort of grounds that you were [pause] presumably they were different sorts of abilities, you know. I would have thought ease of reaction probably.
MP: Well, yes. You say you think that maybe navigation would be, because single engine pilots obviously needs more navigation than a twin engine pilot.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: But in a way it’s a different sort of navigation I suppose. Single engine are more or less on the radio and —
Interviewer: There’s also a thing that in a bomber you’d be working as a, as a part of a team. You’d be commanding other people whereas in a fighter. Well, I suppose, I mean a group [unclear] would be in charge of a squadron or something like that.
MP: Oh, it could be like that.
Interviewer: And a bomber, but the Americans had a thing didn’t they that the captain of the aircraft wasn’t necessarily the pilot.
MP: Oh, the same with the Navy.
Interviewer: What? Oh, do you mean in the aircraft?
MP: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: In the aircraft.
Interviewer: In the what? Flying Boats and things like that.
MP: The Navy look on a pilot as being the driver.
Interviewer: Right. Yes.
MP: Whereas the, like the helmsmen whereas the captain’s on the bridge.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: Controlling everything. And so often in the Navy the, either the navigator or, I don’t think they had a specific post as captain who didn’t have any other jobs.
Interviewer: Jobs. Yes.
MP: But very often the navigator or the observer I think you’d probably call them then would be the captain of the aircraft. They didn’t want a skilled man wasting. I mean a skilled intelligent man just wasting his time just driving the thing.
Interviewer: Driving. Yes. Yes.
MP: And so it was the captain who —
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: Had command who —
Interviewer: Had time to think. Yes.
MP: Yes. That was the idea.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Whereas the RAF always had the pilot as the captain of the aircraft and so you could have a sergeant pilot captain of the aircraft but have a squadron leader navigator but the sergeant pilot was the captain of the aircraft.
Interviewer: And as captain he’s in charge.
MP: He’s in charge. Yes.
Interviewer: But when they get off the plane.
MP: Oh yes.
Interviewer: The aircraft. Yes.
MP: Yeah.
Interviewer: Interesting.
MP: I can’t remember whether I ever had one. I think I did on one occasion I think. Oh, I wonder if it’s here. On one trip having [pause] maybe it wasn’t me. I certainly remember a squadron commander went up on one. No, not a squadron commander, a base commander. A group captain.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And a group captain as a passenger. I don’t think it was on my aircraft actually but I remember them going to that. Oh, it can’t have been on mine. No. Because he didn’t come back.
Interviewer: Oh right.
MP: He was shot down. Group Captain [Weir]. He was a Canadian and I next saw him in POW camp.
Interviewer: And so he went up as a navigator and then —
MP: Oh no. No.
Interviewer: No. He went —
MP: He would go as a passenger.
Interviewer: Passenger. Right.
MP: Yeah. I mean this used to happen. Station commanders would feel they really ought to go and fly. You know, they felt embarrassed if they hadn’t actually been flying.
Interviewer: Right.
MP: So they’d go up. They’d choose a trip and they’d go and fly and if they got shot down well too bad. It seemed a bit of a waste.
Interviewer: If they weren’t actually doing anything other than being a passenger. Still, on the other hand I suppose it gave them feedback as to conditions and things like that.
MP: Well, that sort of thing. I mean, I remember they took the BBC then of course sometimes.
Interviewer: Yes. You can see a reason for that, you know. Reporters and so on you know to actually record it and presumably occasionally some technician or people. Sort of, boffins, you know doing radar and stuff like that may well have —
MP: Yeah.
Interviewer: Occasionally to test stuff and that.
MP: Actually, my first trip was with, you do your first trip as second pilot. I went up with Flying Officer Hart. Unfortunately, I haven’t got all the crews names on this. I just put it down as crew time. Oh unless —
Interviewer: It’s a long training. Was it two years?
MP: Well yeah. Let’s see. I’ve got a thing here from Training Wing. Oh, 14 OTU. What is it? [unclear] Assessment. That’s a medium bomber. I always got average really. As a medium bomber pilot average. OTU. This is on Wellingtons. I had to take an aptitude test. Oh, a decompression tent in this unit. Maximum height twenty six thousand feet. Proficiency as pilot on type. Average on Oxfords. Everything was always average.
Interviewer: Except you were slightly better on actual bombing wasn’t it?
[unclear]
MP: Oh well, that was just natural. I was just drinking my coffee. Let’s just. There’s a lot on Oxfords. Petrol study. I [unclear] to be certified fully on petrol over ignition and hydraulic system including emergency system. Action then to fly and [banding] the Oxford type of aircraft. Ah well. LAC [pause] Ah, well, let’s see. This is where I’ve got a summary of flying assessments for EFTS course. Sixty [pause] Oh, course sixty nine. March the 19th 1943. Single and middle. Just gives time on air types. Assessment on ability. The assessment is exceptional, above the average or below the average. As a twin engine pilot average. As pilot navigator/navigator above average. So I got that. “Any point in flying or airmanship which should be watched?” “His flying has been just average. His instrument work fairly weak.” I’m really trying to see whether there’s anything after EFTS. On EFTS there it was a civilian school. I mean the instructors were civilians. One fellow who [pause] certified I had thirty five hours. Oh at SFTS was [unclear] [pause – pages turning] There doesn’t seem to be any assessment here at all. What were we going to say? You see it’s all down here. There’s Mr Davidson, Mr Shaw, Mr Cole but then it was signed by Pilot Officer Bishop who was a Canadian officer so [pause] [unclear] Chief Supervisor. Must have been J Patton, system CFI. One of these Canadian pilots he reckoned he’d never fly properly unless he’d probably had about a half a bottle of whisky.
Interviewer: Is that an instructor?
MP: Instructor. Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Yeah. He’d want to go up and do steep turns around the grain silos. A couple of grain silos, I don’t know maybe fifty feet apart and he would do steep turns around one, going between the two. Wingtip maybe ten feet from the ground as he was doing sort of steep turns around the grain.
Interviewer: Around and around and around.
MP: Around and around, and around and around the silos you see.
Interviewer: Gosh.
MP: And he reckoned he could only do it when he was pretty sloshed.
Interviewer: I’m not surprised [laughs]
MP: His poor pupils had a bit of a hair-raising time.
Interviewer: They didn’t have to go up with him when he was doing that every day.
MP: Oh yeah. I mean, it would just be the one whose up with that, you know.
Interviewer: What sort of plane that?
MP: Tiger Moth.
Interviewer: A Tiger Moth. Yeah.
MP: I mean that was the story. I never flew with him on any of these and I was told that. How true it is I’ve no idea. He survived. I mean —
Interviewer: Yeah.
Interviewer: I mean they flew by the seat of their pants. They didn’t bother with instruments or anything like that.
MP: Yeah.
MP: These instructors. They’d have to teach you to follow the instruments but they didn’t need them at all [pause] Well, coffee done.
[recording paused]
MP: In New York. So I had khaki shorts and shirt and —
Other: Which you’ve still got.
MP: Probably a form of cap. A blue cap. Probably that. The fella who drove, the girl whose car it was who always let the fellow drive it I got [pause] was he, he was in khaki I think with a peaked blue cap driving it. That was it. The other fellow in the back also was in khaki with a fore and aft cap. That was one driver and the two of us. So we looked the same in the back. The driver who was in khaki was there. One fellow hadn’t got khaki. He had full blue equipment with a peak cap. He sat in the middle in the back.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: And the girl sat in the passenger seat. The coastal area was all barred to civilians. American SPs and everything on the, you know bars and things and we’d drive along. We’d drive up and they’d look at this and look at this fellow sitting up there in the back you see as if we were escorting him. They’d jump back and they pulled the wire and they saluted. He’d salute them you see. Straight through. Down to the beach. Spend the day on the beach swimming and everything. Back in the car, back through the gates saluting as we came. It was fantastic. I don’t know whether we were ever actually asked for any passes. We might have been. I mean we would have ordinary identity cards. I remember being in a bar there too again wearing shorts which of course in those days nobody wore shorts at all. But they did have a rule. After 6 o’clock you had to wear a tie. Officers had to wear a tie in any bar out in the town and the of course the Americans never had their sleeves rolled up. So their khaki would be long trousers and sleeves rolled down.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
MP: After 6 o’clock wear a tie. I was sitting in a bar one evening with I might have had a suit on. I probably [unclear] I don’t know if I had but certainly probably had a tie on at that stage and the American SPs came in. Looked up. Saw me there without a tie on you see. Came up. Were just going to say something. They looked down and saw that I had shorts on. I mean that absolutely rocked it [laughs] Who on earth can this be, you see. So they left me there. I mean they’d never seen it before.
Interviewer: Never existed as uniform. Yes.
MP: Right [laughs]
Interviewer: They were all excited. Your knees are enough to [laughs]
Other: I haven’t heard that story before.
MP: Actually, later on when I was in Paris after the war I had this tropical kit. It was very hot in Paris and I used to wear my shorts. Tropical kit was not allowed something like north of the thirty fifth parallel. The crazy sort of service that would be. You could probably wear them down in Marseilles but you couldn’t wear khaki.
Interviewer: No.
MP: Paris was not an area for tropical kit. So you used to wear this thick heavy blue and I’d worn my khaki for a long time. I used to drive in and out of Paris. But the, what do they call it? The SP. Provost Marshall. Squadron leader. I can’t remember his name. He had to have a word with him to say well yes you can do out at the airfield but in Paris no. I was not to wear tropical kit. I had to wear a uniform and I used to change into civilian clothes I think.
Interviewer: When was that? When were you posted? How long were you in Paris then?
MP: ‘46 ‘47. No, early ’47.
Other: He was posted there just after we met.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Richard used to be in London and he had him on, had him on the telephone from Paris and me on the telephone from the college and he would put the phones together.
MP: Well, I’d got an operational line from [unclear] to, to, what was the name of the place? Uxbridge.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: [unclear] to Uxbridge and then [mum] might be on the civilian line you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And Richard going, ‘I’m sorry I can’t put the two together. I can’t cross patch you. Can I pass messages?’
Other: He never realised it was going to be serious when we met up that first time in Piccadilly Circus but you know we met at Piccadilly Circus.
Interviewer: Did you?
MP: Yeah.
Other: [unclear] shattered the warden [unclear] within his armchair when you said St Edwards.
MP: Well, he —
Other: ’Where did you two meet?’ ‘Piccadilly Circus.’
Interviewer: Under Eros.
Other: No. No. In a red suit I wore too.
MP: Richard and I had been playing squash at Uxbridge. I knew Richard was meeting mum at the Criterion was it darling?
Other: The Criterion.
MP: [unclear]
Other: [unclear] because I was so [unclear]
MP: It was so, it was a little bit late. I mean we were a little bit late.
Other: You were late. I stood outside there on Piccadilly.
MP: We used, yes, we went in by Underground. Yes, we didn’t have to use the car or that I don’t think.
Other: No.
MP: I seem to remember travelling by Underground and so we got there maybe I don’t know twenty minutes late. Maybe a half an hour.
Other: A long time to stand at Piccadilly Circus in a red suit.
MP: And mum had been waiting standing outside the Criterion waiting to —
Other: People were trying to pick me up.
MP: Just before he went Richard said, ‘Oh look, can you come with me.’ And so I —
Other: Excuse.
MP: Excused for being so late. And as we’d been playing squash.
Other: I can you imagine. That’s a picture there.
Interviewer: That’s an excuse for being late.
Other: Yes. The story of the night.
MP: That was for Richard being late that was.
Other: Yes. It was funny because then we, I think he had tickets for this big ball that was —
MP: The Pathfinder Ball wasn’t it?
Other: At the Dorchester and we got that. Then we spent the night together. Nothing happened I might say. In those days they never did.
MP: Well, with Derek.
Other: Derek Davidstow. Yes.
MP: Something might have happened there.
Other: Oh well. They were sleeping together.
MP: Derek and whatever hers was.
Other: He just, they went off to bed and left us. I think I had only known him a little while. A few days.
MP: I mean nowadays this wouldn’t happen at all would it but —
Other: No, but they went off and we were in this little sitting room.
MP: There was one bed.
Other: What’s going to happen now?
MP: There was one couch or one settee.
Other: Couch. Yeah.
MP: A bed settee.
Other: The whole thing went. Dear me, it was funny. That was quite amusing wasn’t it?
MP: As I say because I was stationed in London you see. No. I had been stationed in London and while I was there I joined the Pathfinder Club. It was only about a pound a year I think. They had, they had premises with a bar in London. I’d never been a Pathfinder but they would let other people join.
Interviewer: Join.
MP: You know. Bring in some money.
Interviewer: Yeah.
MP: And so they had a ball, a Pathfinder Ball and I got tickets for that.
Other: It was fun really because I enjoyed that night because a lot of my school friends were in the forces and they tended to be coming home then after the war on leave probably. Not necessarily been disbanded and they’d get in touch and I was supposed to be working you know [unclear] back from the Far East [unclear] to see again. It was lovely. [unclear]
MP: The difficulty I found was that being in London people would come up and contact me when I was in [unclear] to get in touch and they would expect. Yes, I mean they would pay their wack but then expect me to pay my wack obviously.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
MP: Well, they may be up once in three months. It was happening to me a couple of times once or twice a week.
Other: I didn’t have to pay for [unclear] all and sundry. I mean we had boyfriends.
MP: I reckon that if it was just two of us together it would cost me five pounds.
Other: That was a lot then.
MP: Just for me. If it was a question of joining up and taking a girl as well it would cost me ten pounds. Of course, then ten pounds was [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
MP: I mean that was, that was a fair old whack. I mean the rate of pay then I was probably on twenty one shillings a day. So that would be seven pounds a week.
Other: When you look at our —
Interviewer: Pay.
Other: Being a pound a week but when we were first married.
Interviewer: So that was a week’s pay.
MP: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: So three times a week was —
MP: Well, not as much as two or three times. No. Once or twice a week. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Its half past Ruth. Right.
MP: But I was getting living out allowance as well which was about twenty six shillings a day or maybe thirty shillings a day. That really was interesting.
Other: Right.
MP: But the other little thing of interest was that being in the RCAF and I think all RAF in Canada while in Canada were paid Canadian rates of pay.
Interviewer: Oh yes. Yeah.
MP: Which was six dollars twenty five a day. Whereas the RAF rate was fourteen shillings. Maybe even [unclear] shillings or about three dollars fifty. So it’s double. Which is nearly double the pay. And then on the Miami do it was, I think the rates of pay I think it was rates of pay was ten dollars a day and living out allowance. So that was sixteen dollars. Seventeen. Maybe seventeen dollars a day which was, and it was four dollars.
Interviewer: In Miami.
MP: It was four dollars to the pound.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: Which was four pounds a day which was twelve pounds a year or [unclear] fourteen, fifteen hundred a year.
Interviewer: And after the war you started [unclear] Yes.
MP: I mean it was, I think it was probably by about not until about 1963.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: That I was paid over a thousand a year.
Interviewer: Yes.
MP: By my factory department.
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes. Because I remember when I left work and went to work at this job it was a thousand a year. Yes.
Interviewer: What? Yours was a thousand year.
Interviewer: Mine. Yes. Yes. I earned a thousand a year.
MP: Ah yes. But what I mean is having working my way up.
Interviewer: No. No. Yes.
MP: This was the first time I reached a thousand a year and I had been getting fifteen hundred a year.
Interviewer: Yeah. During the war.
MP: Sixty pounds. Fifty pounds twenty years earlier.
Interviewer: Earlier. Yes.
MP: Yeah. Without any family responsibilities then.
Interviewer: In Miami. Yes.
MP: Well, yes. Yes. And not having to pay the rent.
Interviewer: Right.
Collection
Citation
Philip Peel, “Michael Peel interview. One,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed July 26, 2024, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/48086.
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