Interview with James Swaffield
Title
Interview with James Swaffield
Description
James Swaffield was born and grew up in West London and flew as a navigator in the RAF. He discusses with the interviewer his life before, during and after the war. Highlights include: remembering his father, who served during the First World War and was awarded a Military Cross; his cousin Don flew ninety ops as a navigator and was awarded a DFC and bar; he joined the RAF at seventeen; started his training on the 14th of September 1942 at 7 AOS at RAF Bishops Court, in Northern Ireland, where he spent fifteen months; in July 1944 was posted to 106 Squadron, where his first operation was to Kiel; was posted to 44 Squadron; discusses the briefing before operations; left the RAF in 1947 and went to work in the catering industry, before running the RAF Club from 1976 to 1991.
Creator
Date
2017-10-04
Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:52:00 audio recording
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
Identifier
ASwaffieldJ171004, PSwaffieldJ1703
Transcription
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Tuesday, Wednesday, the 4th of October 2017 and we are in Maidenhead, talking to James Jim Swaffield, a navigator, about his experiences in the war and afterwards. But what are your earliest recollections of life, Jim? When you were young, what do you remember first?
JS: I don’t know
US: Do you remember where you lived?
JS: Yeah, I’m just trying to think
US: Where was it you lived, when were very young?
JS: What, in Chiswick?
US: Yeah, do you remember the road you lived in before you went to Bedford Park?
JS: Yes
US: Where was that?
JS: Just trying
US: It’s next to your school later, school you went to. I remember, it was Rivercourt Road
CB: Oh, was it, in Chiswick?
US: You know Chiswick?
CB: Yes, my grandparents live there
US: That’s where you lived, you were born, I think in a nursing home in Kensal Rise or somewhere like that but that’s where you lived in Rivercourt Road before you went, Jim lived in Bedford Park. Do you know Bedford Park?
CB: I don’t know. Then he went to Bedford Park, right.
US: They went, when he was quite young, to Bedford Park
JS: My father had an MC
CB: Did he?
JS: Yeah. In the First World War, which I suppose would’ve made certain things different from an ordinary person, you know, he was a Military Cross
US: He never told us why he got it, did he?
JS: Mh?
US: He never told us why he got it, we only found out by chance a couple of years ago
JS: No, he wasn’t
US: No. What did your dad do?
JS: What did he do?
US: What was his work?
JS: Well, he went to, oh, what’s it now?
US: Smithfield
JS: Mh?
US: Smithfield
JS: Yes?
US: He was a manager at Smithfield Meat Market, wasn’t he?
JS: Yeah, I
US: He used to get up and go to work at about half past two in the morning, didn’t he?
JS: Something like that, yeah. He definitely had an MC,
US: Yeah.
JS: I suppose years and years back, no he wouldn’t [unclear], I think he got married at the end of the First World War, no, and he went
US: He was later getting married, where did he go at the end of the First World War, when he was still in the army, do you remember?
JS: I think so, yes
US: Where was it, he was
JS: Yeah
US: [unclear] there lot,
JS: Yeah
US: Do you remember where?
JS: Oh
US: Was it Mesopotamia, wasn’t it?
JS: Mh?
US: [clears throat] It was in Mesopotamia he went on after the war? He was still in the army and he went out to the Middle East, didn’t he? He was very rude about it, do you remember?
JS: I think, yeah, I think, these things are there I think
US2: Iraq, which one?
CB: Say more about him.
JS: Oh goodness, very early getting up in the morning, I know, to go to
US: Smithfield
JS: Yeah. What was it now?
CB: [unclear]
JS: No, not really, no, go to Piccadilly, I went to a few of those, you know, saw him at Christmas for a time perhaps, something like that but, you knew him, didn’t you?
US: Yes, I knew him, quite a while
JS: And, I’d have to look and see and find anything
CB: Sure, sure, we’ll stop just a minute.
JS: Yeah, went to school at Latymer, yeah
US: Latymer Upper
JS: Yeah, Upper Latymer
US: Or Upper Latymer. Where was that school, do you remember?
JS: Mh?
US: Where was the school?
JS: In Hammersmith
US: That’s right
JS: Used to walk from Chiswick to Hammersmith. You remember all that [unclear]?
US: Well, yeah
JS: Yeah, yeah
CB: It was a good school, was it?
JS: At Latymer?
CB: Yeah
JS: Latymer Upper School, good school
CB: What about your friends? Goods friends at school, were there?
JS: Not necessarily
US: Oh! What about Ron and Alan and [unclear] the man Ron, Alan?
JS: Well, you had things like, I think, military things [unclear] you know, all [unclear] were introduced to that, yeah
CB: Because it was an upper school,
JS: Mh?
CB: Because it was an upper school it will have had the equivalent of the Combined Cadet Force, so there was training, wasn’t there?
JS: Oh, I think that
CB: Military training at school
JS: Yes, in Hammersmith, yes, I think so
CB: And what age did you leave school?
JS: Oh, quite early, I think, about sixteen, I don’t, I’m not really certain, sixteen or seventeen, I’m not absolutely certain,
US: Fifteen
JS: I found out why
CB: Yes
JS: Will be in the book there
CB: Ok
JS: It might have been in, written in
CB: But what did you do when you left school?
JS: What did I leave school? I can’t remember that
US: [unclear] his memory because
JS: Yes
CB: Yes
US: [unclear] find interesting then, you used to work up in, I think it was up in the Haymarket or something like that and you said you used to cycle up every day after the Blitz through all the damage, they were still clearing up, from the air raids
JS: I don’t know, could be
US: Do you remember?
JS: Could be, yeah
US: I know you told me that
JS: Yes
US: Think he worked in an office of some kind
JS: Yeah
US: It’s fascinating cause he said he used to ride to work
JS: Yes
US: Immediately after the bombing you
CB: Right
US: And there’d be, you know, all the rubbish over the roads and [unclear] still clearing up
CB: When the war started, you were aged fourteen
JS: Yes, about that
CB: And school leaving age in those days was fourteen but at some schools, grammar schools and so on, people stayed on longer, age fifteen or sixteen
JB: I have to look
CB: And you couldn’t go into the forces at that age, so people took a job and from what Diana just said, it sounds as though you had this job in Haymarket
JS: Could be, yes, could be that, could be that
CB: Now, did you join the Air Training Corps in those days? What made you interested in aeroplanes?
JS: Yes. Well I think, I really think of as army, I think I would put that in and I don’t think that, well, he was perhaps a bit too old at that time to actually join the Air Force but I, can’t think of him being all that interested in, I mean, he was in the army I think for the whole time of the war going but that was before my time
CB: Yeah
JS: Nearly
CB: The First War, yeah, so we are now going fast forward to the beginning of World War Two, September ’39,
JS: Yeah
CB: You are at that time, you were born in 1924, you are fourteen
JS: Yes
CB: You can’t leave school till you’re
JS: Yes
CB: Well, you can leave it about that age, but did you stay on a bit?
JS: Yeah
CB: But, clearly you had a job for a while
JS: Yeah. But he got the MC
CB: Yes
JS: The Military Cross
CB: Yes, so he didn’t go back in again for the second war, into the army, did he? But you did go into the Air Force
JS: I don’t know how, do you know?
US: I think he was probably a bit old and he probably wasn’t that good, he had a bad chest [unclear] taken him anyway, I can’t think how old he would have been, died when he was seventeen, at about sixty three
JS: Yeah
US: [unclear] how old he would have been
CB: Well, he would have been close on fifty, so they wouldn’t have taken him in but in your case, you had this job, what made you join the RAF?
JS: The RAF, yeah
CB: Who did you know in your family who had already joined the forces?
JS: Well, my father of course
CB: Yeah
JS: And his brother. Do you remember him?
US: No, we are talking about you going into the Air Force, what made you decide
JS: To
US: To go in the Air Force? Who did you know who was already in the Air Force?
JS: Well, I was in the Air Force
US: Yeah, but you had a cousin, didn’t you, who was in, who gave you some advice, who was it? Do you
JS: I could, I think I could, given a bit of time
CB: Look it up, Yes, but doesn’t matter, it’s just a recall.
JS: Yeah
CB: So, Diana, who was the cousin?
US: Don, do you remember Don, your cousin Don?
JS: Yes
US: He was a Pathfinder
JS: Yes
US: Do you remember him? Cause he would’ve had some influence I think, cause he was in two or three years before you
JS: Yeah
US: And he did ninety tours and DFC and Bar, didn’t he? Do you remember Don?
JS: Yes
US: Did he talk to you?
JS: I’d have to think about it.
CB: Ok
JS: So let’s go back a bit
CB: So, was he a pilot or a navigator?
US: He was a navigator
CB: Right, on Mosquitoes
US: No, in Lancasters
CB: In Lancasters
US: He was in Lancasters, too. That’s why Harry was in the Pathfinders, in Lancasters
CB: Yeah, ok, right. So, why did you join the RAF at a junior age? You joined when you were seventeen, didn’t you?
JS: Yes
CB: How did you get away with that?
JS: With?
CB: How did you get away with joining the RAF at seventeen underage?
JS: I can’t at the, I can’t
CB: According, interestingly
JS: Could be in the book
CB: According to your logbook
JS: Yes
CB: You were a navigator
JS: Yes
CB: According to your logbook, you started your navigator training on the 14th of September 1942
JS: Yes
CB: That’s when you were age seventeen
JS: Yes
CB: And three months, that was one year too young [laughs],
JS: Yes
CB: So you must have joined the RAF a bit before then because you would’ve had to do your initial training
JS: Yes
CB: Before you did navigator training, using your logbook as the date in there
JS: Right, yeah
CB: So, where did you do your navigator training?
JS: Where did I do that?
CB: Yes
JS: That’s a good point, so that’s a good point, yeah. Oh, I got a vague remembrance of it, but I can’t tell you that much about it
CB: Ok, your logbook says, number 7 AOS but it doesn’t say where that is,
JS: Yes
CB: But we will look that up and
US: [unclear] go abroad sometimes to do it
CB: Yes, so it could be Canada
US: No, it’s in Northern Ireland,
CB: Oh, was it? [laughs]
US: He wasn’t lucky enough to go anywhere nice [laughs]
JS: Where did I go?
US: You were in Northern Ireland
CB: So that was actually at Bishops Court
JS: Yeah
CB: Excuse Northern Ireland,
JS: Yeah
CB: I just looked at the front of the book
JS: We went to America, didn’t we?
US: No, I haven’t been to America, you went briefly on business. Now that’s something quite different
CB: Right
JS: Oh, right
US: We’re talking about, do you remember going to Northern Ireland? Cause I think Don went to Canada, but you got lumbered with Northern Ireland
JS: Ah yes, yes, I have some remembrance of that, ah, yeah, sorry, can’t,
CB: You were there for fifteen months, doing your navigation training, according to your logbook
JS: Yeah, I think that’s probably so, yeah, I think, yes, goodness. Where do we got to after that?
US: Got nothing to do with me,
JS: Mh?
US: Nothing to do with me, I wasn’t there
CB: Then, according to your logbook, you then went to Operational Training Unit number 14 which was Husband’s Bosworth
US: Yes
CB: And Market Harborough
JS: Yes
CB: So there, you would be flying on the Wellington
JS: Yes, I can tell you some of these things, given time and, you know
CB: When you’re sitting in your bath tonight, you’ll remember all of it
JS: Yes, that’s, yeah [laughs]
CB: So, you’re at the Operational Training Unit for seven months
JS: Yes
CB: So we’re now July ’44
JS: Yes
CB: And it now says that you went to 106 and 44 Squadrons, that was unusual for people to hop straight from the OTU to a squadron
JS: Yes
CB: Because it needed to go through the Heavy Conversion Unit
JS: Oh yes
CB: But that might be what 106 was
JS: Yes
CB: And so you were there
JS: Yeah, we went together
US: Not this time, no, this is before, I was a child when you were doing your [unclear]
JS: When we were out in, oh, where was it first of all?
US: Khartoum
JS: Yeah. Where were we now?
US: [unclear] us, the first one was Khartoum
JS: Yeah
US: And you were in the Canal Zone
CB: And that’s when you re-joined, wasn’t it?
JS: Yeah
US: Yeah
CB: So if we go fast backwards,
JS: Yeah
CB: Your Operational Training Unit, then you joined 44 Squadron for your ops
JS: Yes
CB: And you joined 44 Squadron, where was that? Do you remember?
JS: 44
CB: At Dunholme Lodge?
US: Just looking at [unclear], we found it once
JS: Yes, we, let me think now
CB: Well, after the, I’ll tell you what it is, that in your logbook it gives the answer here, that you did got to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit
JS: Yeah
CB: Before going to the squadron and so you did that in May 1944 and from there and you flew the Stirling there,
JS: Yeah
CB: The Heavy Conversion Unit and you left there a month later at the end of June and then you went to, according to this, number 4 LFS, which is the Lancaster Finishing School, so what people did was to go to an HCU on Stirlings and then convert to Lancasters on the Lancaster Finishing School, which then took you, which was Swinderby, took you to 106 Squadron
JS: Oh yeah
CB: Flying Lancasters
JS: Oh yeah
CB: Which was July ’44, just after D-Day
JS: Yea
CB: So you were on ops
JS: Yeah
CB: Just after D-Day, weren’t you?
JS: Yeah
CB: And
JS: Yeah
CB: Actually, your first op here was to Kiel
JS: Yes
CB: On, with 106 Squadron
JS: I can’t remember Lancaster moving from the chair
CB: Yes
JS: I’ll have to have a look and see the gip, the pilot was getting on, you know, in the front and I can remember that very well. There’s something else that, he felt it was awful laying in the front of the, we are talking about Lancaster, I think?
CB: Yes
JS: In the front, he, just weird things do come back sometimes, well, I can’t [unclear] what went with that, oh goodness me!
CB: Why did you get up and why did he go to the front?
JS: I think she remembers a lot of these things
US: Well, you told me he used to say to you when you were over the target
JS: Yeah
US: Would you like to come up and see? And you went up to see, you know, fires and everything
JS: Yeah
US: And but Jim said, I didn’t want to go up and see, I just wanted to get the hell out of there [laughs], those were his words, so he, you know, he wasn’t interested in that, he just wanted to go home
JS: Yeah
US: Do you remember the story you told me about the tail of the Lancaster just under you, do you remember that story? By the Lancaster that was above you in formation and there was one just below? [doorbell rings] Do you remember what happened?
JS: Sounds like
US: Oh, don’t get me really, do you remember what happened? What you told me happened?
JS: No, can’t remember
US: Like the bomb from the other Lancaster?
CB: What did it do?
US: It came down and took the tail right off of one flying below, that [unclear] going up [unclear]
CB: What other things do you remember?
JS: I was thinking, getting closer to,
CB: When you were waiting to go on an operation, before you took off, what were you doing?
JS: Doing?
CB: Before you got on to an operation
JS: Yeah
CB: What did you do?
JS: Yeah. Well, if I was the navigator, it would be taking your, [laughs] your newspaper with you or something of that sort, you know, but you’d find something that would be quite good, you know, and what else was there? [unclear] the thing, you know, in some book or something for hand over to the bosses but
US: Oh dear, sorry, I
JS: But we have to go back, I could say to you now that, given some a bit of time, I could give you a lot of
CB: Ok.
JS: Times
CB: Alright, we can do that later.
JS: Right
CB: So, we can just pick up some bits now
JS: Yeah
CB: And then go over some detail later
JS: Yes
US: I’m fascinated that you know the experiment of the crew on that plane cause I always wondered whether they survived that
CB: Well, the gunner of course didn’t
US: Below it went
CB: Cause it took the whole of the turret out
US: Out
CB: Yeah
US: Now, I often wondered, did they crash-land or just parachute?
CB: I’ll tell you later. Well, the plane flew on
US: It did? Gosh! I’m surprised
CB: What other things do you remember about preparing for a flight?
JS: Preparing for a flight
CB: For an operation
JS: For an operation
CB: What do you remember about that? I mean, you went to a briefing, didn’t you? All the crews went together in the briefing. So, the map was on the wall
JS: Yes
CB: And this is the briefing for tonight
JS: Yeah
CB: What do you remember about that? So, there is this huge map of the continent with Britain
JS: Yeah
CB: And it shows the route of the raid with the diversions
JS: Yes
CB: But you had to prepare as the navigator
JS: Yes
CB: With the pilot
JS: Yeah
CB: You had to prepare for the operation. What of you remember about that?
JS: I can’t think of that, really
CB: Because you were given a bombing time, you were given a bombing time and you had to work out your route to get there
JS: Yes, could be, yeah
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo. At the OTU?
JS: Yeah, Piccadilly,
CB: But this would’ve been, this was number 29 OTU and you were clearly a navigator instructor
JS: Yes
CB: There
JS: Yeah
CB: What were you doing, do you remember?
JS: [laughs] You got the final
CB: You were newly commissioned at that stage as a pilot officer
JS: Yes
CB: And you’d done four hundred and fifty hours of flying in total? Of which two hundred and thirty-seven were at night. I’m stopping again. You, does any particular raid?
JS: [unclear] of the, [unclear]
CB: So, when you got on ops
JS: In Piccadilly?
CB: No, when you were on operations in your Lancaster
JS: Yes
CB: What was the most memorable operational flight that you did, would you say?
JS: No, I can’t really
CB: If I show you this, you can see there your early operations there
JS: See what they say, yeah
CB: What does that remind you?
JS: Yeah. Let me see, navigation, navigator, navigator
CB: Cause you’re always the navigator
JS: Navigator, yeah
CB: But the target
JS: Right, the target
CB: Is in red. The whole, the night operations there are all in red
JS: Ah! Operations
CB: So, your first op was on Kiel
JS: Operations, operation again, two three
CB: So what does that remind you?
JS: Underlined by Kiev
CB: Kiel
JS: Kiel, St [unclear]
CB: In France
JS: And Givaux
CB: Also in France
JS: Up to then
CB: So, you did your thirty ops and then you were rested at an Operational Conversion Unit. What do you remember about working there?
JS: Going to
CB: To the Operational Conversion Unit after you left the squadron, 44 Squadron, what do you remember about that?
JS: Can’t remember at the moment
CB: Ok. Now the war finished in Europe on the 8th of May 1945
JS: Yes
CB: What do you remember about the celebrations and the feeling at the end of the war?
JS: I can’t remember it
CB: For some people, they got caught up in the celebrations, others were just on the station
JS: Yes
CB: And work continued as usual
JS: Yes
CB: So
JS: This is, this is, what time?
CB: So, we are talking about May 1945,
JS: Yeah
CB: Was the end of the war in Europe
JS: Yeah
CB: When you were in the Lancaster, 106 squadron and 44, it was the same crew, was it? What do you remember about your crew?
JS: I can’t remember it.
CB: Did you keep in touch?
JS: Mh?
CB: Did you keep in touch with any of your crew after you ended operations and after the war?
JS: Something comes into [unclear], Kensington, Hammersmith, these are places thinking, you know, areas
CB: In your mind, yes
JS: Yeah. Areas of where I might have been
CB: Your family was living there, wasn’t it? Do you remember what the effect on your family was of the V weapons, V-1 and V-2?
JS: The
CB: V-1s and V-2s? What effect did that have on your family? Because they were in the Chiswick, Hammersmith, Kensington area, weren’t they?
JS: Yeah. No, it’s, I can’t remember it,
CB: So, according to the detail that we’ve got, you left the RAF
JS: Yes
CB: In 1947
JS: Ah!
CB: And then you went to work for who?
JS: That could be so of course
CB: You went to work for Joe Lyons
JS: Go to
CB: Joe Lyons
JS: Joe, oh yeah, yeah
CB: What did you do at Lyons?
JS: Lyons, I was with them earlier on, Lyons, yeah, that could be, I had a job with Lyons
CB: Did you do catering before you left the RAF, is that how you came to them?
JS: Before
CB: Did you volunteer to be a catering officer?
JS: Yeah
CB: Before you left the RAF?
JS: It could be, it could be
CB: So, then you went to Joe Lyons in ’47 and you worked with them till ’51
JS: Yeah
CB: When you re-joined the RAF. What was the initiative to do that?
JS: I, yeah, I couldn’t remember this somehow, Piccadilly, Hyde Park, the area, you know, I could be in
CB: Well, there was a J. Lyons in the Strand, wasn’t there?
JS: Yeah, Strand, yes, that’s, yeah.
CB: And something prompted you to re-join the RAF
JS: It could be so, [laughs] I can’t, can’t remember
CB: Ok.
JS: No.
CB: We will pause there
JS: Yeah.
CB: Cause you, you ran the RAF Club from ’76 to ‘91
JS: There could be, that could be something, yeah, could be something
CB: I remember you there
JS: Good to have you here, you know [laughs]? where, was I married by then?
CB: You were, you were, yes
JS: Yeah
CB: What were you doing when you were working at the RAF club?
JS: Ah, that’s a good point, yeah, there’s a lot of [unclear], lot of [unclear] for [unclear], again, I’m not sure on
CB: What was the condition of the RAF club when you became the general manager?
JS: Yeah
CB: What was it like to walk into?
JS: I’ll try and find your book
CB: Was it dingy? It was dingy, rundown
JS: Yeah
CB: And what did you do to change that?
JS: Yeah. I can’t think
CB: You completely transformed the RAF club
JS: I, likely, yes, likely, yeah. Yes, I remember now, I think of the wife, I think I became settled at that time. My goodness, yes. No, I can’t think of much more, it was a base that I could see some very highly, highly rated people, you know, or some youngster, you know, but it was quite a good job, quite a good job, that I enjoyed. I’ll find you some of this, you know
CB: Do
JS: Give me some time after
CB: Yes. Ok.
JS: It’s. I think, I moved out to here, you know, on this organisation, cause I can’t remember much else between that. I, yes, if I look back army and navy don’t to mind to, to look at all, look at the form, I think I was, for now I take a lot of, looking upstairs and saying who is there? I couldn’t, can really pull you off, you know, ideas and what have you. I love to watch the aeroplane going across there
CB: From your house
JS: [unclear] but I, on the other hand, there is not much I can go into, you know, do something but, I was, I was carefully [unclear] with that
CB: Of course, when you were working for Trusthouse Forte, after you left the RAF on the second occasion,
JS. Yeah
CB: You were the director of airport division, weren’t you?
JS: Yes, [unclear]
CB: And then you moved to the RAF Club
JS: Maybe the one, yeah
CB: So you’ve always maintained your fascination with aeroplanes
JS: Yes, oh yeah, yes, yeah
CB: What’s the thing in your mind that stands out most about your career? What do you remember?
JS: We could do that in this area, you know, on occasions, not so much now as was but we, even now, we are doing something in this area, yeah
CB: Well, Jim, thank you very much for talking
JS: Well, I tried
CB: We’ll catch up with more later I think. Thank you
JS: It’s, you could come back and say that I didn’t say [laughs], or it didn’t sound very, you know, and to some extent, it doesn’t. I sit in this area
CB: Yes
JS: Area, small
CB: Your little extension here
JS: Have a look through there often
CB: Through the French windows, yes
JS: Yeah
CB: Well, it’s a lovely garden, isn’t it?
JS: Yes, we, no, I mean, we like this place, but it’s, we run it pretty carefully,
CB: I think it’s very nice
JS: Yeah. We are looking at the moment, course of coming back, in the jobs [unclear] or something, odd things, you know, before but we’re quite happy in this place
CB: I can imagine, it’s very nice
JS: Yeah
CB: And at ninety-two, you deserve a quiet time
JS: Yes [laughs], yes. But the wife knows a lot of things
CB: Yes, well, you’ve told her over the years
JS: Yeah
CB: So, we’ll pick up on those later
JS: Yeah, that’s right
CB: Yes
JS: Yeah
CB: Good
JS: Her views could be different to my views in some areas but yes, she thinks things of certain things I think but there’s a changing over at this moment in time. We have very definitely, I think, we would be more adjusted to this place of we have behind us, you know, with the, the water clubs, here, with clubs in, have you seen the back of the area here?
CB: The back there, yes, yes
JS: Yeah, I said, that’s the area we got here
GB: Now we are looking here at a picture here
JS: Yes
CB: Of you with Diana
JS: Yes
CB: I can’t see your rank at the time but what’s that bring back to you?
JS: That’s right, I’m a navigator
CB: Yes
JS: Yeah, there
CB: In your number 1 uniform, in your number 1
JS: That’s right, yes, that’s her. Does she say that is?
CB: Yes
JS: She does, that’s right. Yeah, that’s it.
CB: Right,
JS: Yeah
CB: Thank you Jim.
JS: Navigator
US2: Busy
JS: Yeah
US2: Yeah
JS: Well, oh yes, sometime, you know, using that or calling somebody else into help
US2: Yeah
JS: And the other but, no, I think I enjoyed that, or, didn’t disenjoy it, Lancaster I think it is, the Lancaster I think but, yeah. I’ve been up occasionally since and it has been, you know, good to get up and go in and see what was you did and what happened to you like and there we are
CB: How did you feel about the bombing? How did you feel about doing the bombing raids?
JS: Sorry?
CB: What did you think about doing the bombing raids?
JS: The bombing ring?
CB: When you were on operations, what did you think about it?
JS: I don’t feel, I don’t feel cheerless about it or you know what have you, but I think I did a couple of main courses and no, I think, I quite used it, quite, quite enjoyed it a long time ago
JS: I don’t know
US: Do you remember where you lived?
JS: Yeah, I’m just trying to think
US: Where was it you lived, when were very young?
JS: What, in Chiswick?
US: Yeah, do you remember the road you lived in before you went to Bedford Park?
JS: Yes
US: Where was that?
JS: Just trying
US: It’s next to your school later, school you went to. I remember, it was Rivercourt Road
CB: Oh, was it, in Chiswick?
US: You know Chiswick?
CB: Yes, my grandparents live there
US: That’s where you lived, you were born, I think in a nursing home in Kensal Rise or somewhere like that but that’s where you lived in Rivercourt Road before you went, Jim lived in Bedford Park. Do you know Bedford Park?
CB: I don’t know. Then he went to Bedford Park, right.
US: They went, when he was quite young, to Bedford Park
JS: My father had an MC
CB: Did he?
JS: Yeah. In the First World War, which I suppose would’ve made certain things different from an ordinary person, you know, he was a Military Cross
US: He never told us why he got it, did he?
JS: Mh?
US: He never told us why he got it, we only found out by chance a couple of years ago
JS: No, he wasn’t
US: No. What did your dad do?
JS: What did he do?
US: What was his work?
JS: Well, he went to, oh, what’s it now?
US: Smithfield
JS: Mh?
US: Smithfield
JS: Yes?
US: He was a manager at Smithfield Meat Market, wasn’t he?
JS: Yeah, I
US: He used to get up and go to work at about half past two in the morning, didn’t he?
JS: Something like that, yeah. He definitely had an MC,
US: Yeah.
JS: I suppose years and years back, no he wouldn’t [unclear], I think he got married at the end of the First World War, no, and he went
US: He was later getting married, where did he go at the end of the First World War, when he was still in the army, do you remember?
JS: I think so, yes
US: Where was it, he was
JS: Yeah
US: [unclear] there lot,
JS: Yeah
US: Do you remember where?
JS: Oh
US: Was it Mesopotamia, wasn’t it?
JS: Mh?
US: [clears throat] It was in Mesopotamia he went on after the war? He was still in the army and he went out to the Middle East, didn’t he? He was very rude about it, do you remember?
JS: I think, yeah, I think, these things are there I think
US2: Iraq, which one?
CB: Say more about him.
JS: Oh goodness, very early getting up in the morning, I know, to go to
US: Smithfield
JS: Yeah. What was it now?
CB: [unclear]
JS: No, not really, no, go to Piccadilly, I went to a few of those, you know, saw him at Christmas for a time perhaps, something like that but, you knew him, didn’t you?
US: Yes, I knew him, quite a while
JS: And, I’d have to look and see and find anything
CB: Sure, sure, we’ll stop just a minute.
JS: Yeah, went to school at Latymer, yeah
US: Latymer Upper
JS: Yeah, Upper Latymer
US: Or Upper Latymer. Where was that school, do you remember?
JS: Mh?
US: Where was the school?
JS: In Hammersmith
US: That’s right
JS: Used to walk from Chiswick to Hammersmith. You remember all that [unclear]?
US: Well, yeah
JS: Yeah, yeah
CB: It was a good school, was it?
JS: At Latymer?
CB: Yeah
JS: Latymer Upper School, good school
CB: What about your friends? Goods friends at school, were there?
JS: Not necessarily
US: Oh! What about Ron and Alan and [unclear] the man Ron, Alan?
JS: Well, you had things like, I think, military things [unclear] you know, all [unclear] were introduced to that, yeah
CB: Because it was an upper school,
JS: Mh?
CB: Because it was an upper school it will have had the equivalent of the Combined Cadet Force, so there was training, wasn’t there?
JS: Oh, I think that
CB: Military training at school
JS: Yes, in Hammersmith, yes, I think so
CB: And what age did you leave school?
JS: Oh, quite early, I think, about sixteen, I don’t, I’m not really certain, sixteen or seventeen, I’m not absolutely certain,
US: Fifteen
JS: I found out why
CB: Yes
JS: Will be in the book there
CB: Ok
JS: It might have been in, written in
CB: But what did you do when you left school?
JS: What did I leave school? I can’t remember that
US: [unclear] his memory because
JS: Yes
CB: Yes
US: [unclear] find interesting then, you used to work up in, I think it was up in the Haymarket or something like that and you said you used to cycle up every day after the Blitz through all the damage, they were still clearing up, from the air raids
JS: I don’t know, could be
US: Do you remember?
JS: Could be, yeah
US: I know you told me that
JS: Yes
US: Think he worked in an office of some kind
JS: Yeah
US: It’s fascinating cause he said he used to ride to work
JS: Yes
US: Immediately after the bombing you
CB: Right
US: And there’d be, you know, all the rubbish over the roads and [unclear] still clearing up
CB: When the war started, you were aged fourteen
JS: Yes, about that
CB: And school leaving age in those days was fourteen but at some schools, grammar schools and so on, people stayed on longer, age fifteen or sixteen
JB: I have to look
CB: And you couldn’t go into the forces at that age, so people took a job and from what Diana just said, it sounds as though you had this job in Haymarket
JS: Could be, yes, could be that, could be that
CB: Now, did you join the Air Training Corps in those days? What made you interested in aeroplanes?
JS: Yes. Well I think, I really think of as army, I think I would put that in and I don’t think that, well, he was perhaps a bit too old at that time to actually join the Air Force but I, can’t think of him being all that interested in, I mean, he was in the army I think for the whole time of the war going but that was before my time
CB: Yeah
JS: Nearly
CB: The First War, yeah, so we are now going fast forward to the beginning of World War Two, September ’39,
JS: Yeah
CB: You are at that time, you were born in 1924, you are fourteen
JS: Yes
CB: You can’t leave school till you’re
JS: Yes
CB: Well, you can leave it about that age, but did you stay on a bit?
JS: Yeah
CB: But, clearly you had a job for a while
JS: Yeah. But he got the MC
CB: Yes
JS: The Military Cross
CB: Yes, so he didn’t go back in again for the second war, into the army, did he? But you did go into the Air Force
JS: I don’t know how, do you know?
US: I think he was probably a bit old and he probably wasn’t that good, he had a bad chest [unclear] taken him anyway, I can’t think how old he would have been, died when he was seventeen, at about sixty three
JS: Yeah
US: [unclear] how old he would have been
CB: Well, he would have been close on fifty, so they wouldn’t have taken him in but in your case, you had this job, what made you join the RAF?
JS: The RAF, yeah
CB: Who did you know in your family who had already joined the forces?
JS: Well, my father of course
CB: Yeah
JS: And his brother. Do you remember him?
US: No, we are talking about you going into the Air Force, what made you decide
JS: To
US: To go in the Air Force? Who did you know who was already in the Air Force?
JS: Well, I was in the Air Force
US: Yeah, but you had a cousin, didn’t you, who was in, who gave you some advice, who was it? Do you
JS: I could, I think I could, given a bit of time
CB: Look it up, Yes, but doesn’t matter, it’s just a recall.
JS: Yeah
CB: So, Diana, who was the cousin?
US: Don, do you remember Don, your cousin Don?
JS: Yes
US: He was a Pathfinder
JS: Yes
US: Do you remember him? Cause he would’ve had some influence I think, cause he was in two or three years before you
JS: Yeah
US: And he did ninety tours and DFC and Bar, didn’t he? Do you remember Don?
JS: Yes
US: Did he talk to you?
JS: I’d have to think about it.
CB: Ok
JS: So let’s go back a bit
CB: So, was he a pilot or a navigator?
US: He was a navigator
CB: Right, on Mosquitoes
US: No, in Lancasters
CB: In Lancasters
US: He was in Lancasters, too. That’s why Harry was in the Pathfinders, in Lancasters
CB: Yeah, ok, right. So, why did you join the RAF at a junior age? You joined when you were seventeen, didn’t you?
JS: Yes
CB: How did you get away with that?
JS: With?
CB: How did you get away with joining the RAF at seventeen underage?
JS: I can’t at the, I can’t
CB: According, interestingly
JS: Could be in the book
CB: According to your logbook
JS: Yes
CB: You were a navigator
JS: Yes
CB: According to your logbook, you started your navigator training on the 14th of September 1942
JS: Yes
CB: That’s when you were age seventeen
JS: Yes
CB: And three months, that was one year too young [laughs],
JS: Yes
CB: So you must have joined the RAF a bit before then because you would’ve had to do your initial training
JS: Yes
CB: Before you did navigator training, using your logbook as the date in there
JS: Right, yeah
CB: So, where did you do your navigator training?
JS: Where did I do that?
CB: Yes
JS: That’s a good point, so that’s a good point, yeah. Oh, I got a vague remembrance of it, but I can’t tell you that much about it
CB: Ok, your logbook says, number 7 AOS but it doesn’t say where that is,
JS: Yes
CB: But we will look that up and
US: [unclear] go abroad sometimes to do it
CB: Yes, so it could be Canada
US: No, it’s in Northern Ireland,
CB: Oh, was it? [laughs]
US: He wasn’t lucky enough to go anywhere nice [laughs]
JS: Where did I go?
US: You were in Northern Ireland
CB: So that was actually at Bishops Court
JS: Yeah
CB: Excuse Northern Ireland,
JS: Yeah
CB: I just looked at the front of the book
JS: We went to America, didn’t we?
US: No, I haven’t been to America, you went briefly on business. Now that’s something quite different
CB: Right
JS: Oh, right
US: We’re talking about, do you remember going to Northern Ireland? Cause I think Don went to Canada, but you got lumbered with Northern Ireland
JS: Ah yes, yes, I have some remembrance of that, ah, yeah, sorry, can’t,
CB: You were there for fifteen months, doing your navigation training, according to your logbook
JS: Yeah, I think that’s probably so, yeah, I think, yes, goodness. Where do we got to after that?
US: Got nothing to do with me,
JS: Mh?
US: Nothing to do with me, I wasn’t there
CB: Then, according to your logbook, you then went to Operational Training Unit number 14 which was Husband’s Bosworth
US: Yes
CB: And Market Harborough
JS: Yes
CB: So there, you would be flying on the Wellington
JS: Yes, I can tell you some of these things, given time and, you know
CB: When you’re sitting in your bath tonight, you’ll remember all of it
JS: Yes, that’s, yeah [laughs]
CB: So, you’re at the Operational Training Unit for seven months
JS: Yes
CB: So we’re now July ’44
JS: Yes
CB: And it now says that you went to 106 and 44 Squadrons, that was unusual for people to hop straight from the OTU to a squadron
JS: Yes
CB: Because it needed to go through the Heavy Conversion Unit
JS: Oh yes
CB: But that might be what 106 was
JS: Yes
CB: And so you were there
JS: Yeah, we went together
US: Not this time, no, this is before, I was a child when you were doing your [unclear]
JS: When we were out in, oh, where was it first of all?
US: Khartoum
JS: Yeah. Where were we now?
US: [unclear] us, the first one was Khartoum
JS: Yeah
US: And you were in the Canal Zone
CB: And that’s when you re-joined, wasn’t it?
JS: Yeah
US: Yeah
CB: So if we go fast backwards,
JS: Yeah
CB: Your Operational Training Unit, then you joined 44 Squadron for your ops
JS: Yes
CB: And you joined 44 Squadron, where was that? Do you remember?
JS: 44
CB: At Dunholme Lodge?
US: Just looking at [unclear], we found it once
JS: Yes, we, let me think now
CB: Well, after the, I’ll tell you what it is, that in your logbook it gives the answer here, that you did got to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit
JS: Yeah
CB: Before going to the squadron and so you did that in May 1944 and from there and you flew the Stirling there,
JS: Yeah
CB: The Heavy Conversion Unit and you left there a month later at the end of June and then you went to, according to this, number 4 LFS, which is the Lancaster Finishing School, so what people did was to go to an HCU on Stirlings and then convert to Lancasters on the Lancaster Finishing School, which then took you, which was Swinderby, took you to 106 Squadron
JS: Oh yeah
CB: Flying Lancasters
JS: Oh yeah
CB: Which was July ’44, just after D-Day
JS: Yea
CB: So you were on ops
JS: Yeah
CB: Just after D-Day, weren’t you?
JS: Yeah
CB: And
JS: Yeah
CB: Actually, your first op here was to Kiel
JS: Yes
CB: On, with 106 Squadron
JS: I can’t remember Lancaster moving from the chair
CB: Yes
JS: I’ll have to have a look and see the gip, the pilot was getting on, you know, in the front and I can remember that very well. There’s something else that, he felt it was awful laying in the front of the, we are talking about Lancaster, I think?
CB: Yes
JS: In the front, he, just weird things do come back sometimes, well, I can’t [unclear] what went with that, oh goodness me!
CB: Why did you get up and why did he go to the front?
JS: I think she remembers a lot of these things
US: Well, you told me he used to say to you when you were over the target
JS: Yeah
US: Would you like to come up and see? And you went up to see, you know, fires and everything
JS: Yeah
US: And but Jim said, I didn’t want to go up and see, I just wanted to get the hell out of there [laughs], those were his words, so he, you know, he wasn’t interested in that, he just wanted to go home
JS: Yeah
US: Do you remember the story you told me about the tail of the Lancaster just under you, do you remember that story? By the Lancaster that was above you in formation and there was one just below? [doorbell rings] Do you remember what happened?
JS: Sounds like
US: Oh, don’t get me really, do you remember what happened? What you told me happened?
JS: No, can’t remember
US: Like the bomb from the other Lancaster?
CB: What did it do?
US: It came down and took the tail right off of one flying below, that [unclear] going up [unclear]
CB: What other things do you remember?
JS: I was thinking, getting closer to,
CB: When you were waiting to go on an operation, before you took off, what were you doing?
JS: Doing?
CB: Before you got on to an operation
JS: Yeah
CB: What did you do?
JS: Yeah. Well, if I was the navigator, it would be taking your, [laughs] your newspaper with you or something of that sort, you know, but you’d find something that would be quite good, you know, and what else was there? [unclear] the thing, you know, in some book or something for hand over to the bosses but
US: Oh dear, sorry, I
JS: But we have to go back, I could say to you now that, given some a bit of time, I could give you a lot of
CB: Ok.
JS: Times
CB: Alright, we can do that later.
JS: Right
CB: So, we can just pick up some bits now
JS: Yeah
CB: And then go over some detail later
JS: Yes
US: I’m fascinated that you know the experiment of the crew on that plane cause I always wondered whether they survived that
CB: Well, the gunner of course didn’t
US: Below it went
CB: Cause it took the whole of the turret out
US: Out
CB: Yeah
US: Now, I often wondered, did they crash-land or just parachute?
CB: I’ll tell you later. Well, the plane flew on
US: It did? Gosh! I’m surprised
CB: What other things do you remember about preparing for a flight?
JS: Preparing for a flight
CB: For an operation
JS: For an operation
CB: What do you remember about that? I mean, you went to a briefing, didn’t you? All the crews went together in the briefing. So, the map was on the wall
JS: Yes
CB: And this is the briefing for tonight
JS: Yeah
CB: What do you remember about that? So, there is this huge map of the continent with Britain
JS: Yeah
CB: And it shows the route of the raid with the diversions
JS: Yes
CB: But you had to prepare as the navigator
JS: Yes
CB: With the pilot
JS: Yeah
CB: You had to prepare for the operation. What of you remember about that?
JS: I can’t think of that, really
CB: Because you were given a bombing time, you were given a bombing time and you had to work out your route to get there
JS: Yes, could be, yeah
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo. At the OTU?
JS: Yeah, Piccadilly,
CB: But this would’ve been, this was number 29 OTU and you were clearly a navigator instructor
JS: Yes
CB: There
JS: Yeah
CB: What were you doing, do you remember?
JS: [laughs] You got the final
CB: You were newly commissioned at that stage as a pilot officer
JS: Yes
CB: And you’d done four hundred and fifty hours of flying in total? Of which two hundred and thirty-seven were at night. I’m stopping again. You, does any particular raid?
JS: [unclear] of the, [unclear]
CB: So, when you got on ops
JS: In Piccadilly?
CB: No, when you were on operations in your Lancaster
JS: Yes
CB: What was the most memorable operational flight that you did, would you say?
JS: No, I can’t really
CB: If I show you this, you can see there your early operations there
JS: See what they say, yeah
CB: What does that remind you?
JS: Yeah. Let me see, navigation, navigator, navigator
CB: Cause you’re always the navigator
JS: Navigator, yeah
CB: But the target
JS: Right, the target
CB: Is in red. The whole, the night operations there are all in red
JS: Ah! Operations
CB: So, your first op was on Kiel
JS: Operations, operation again, two three
CB: So what does that remind you?
JS: Underlined by Kiev
CB: Kiel
JS: Kiel, St [unclear]
CB: In France
JS: And Givaux
CB: Also in France
JS: Up to then
CB: So, you did your thirty ops and then you were rested at an Operational Conversion Unit. What do you remember about working there?
JS: Going to
CB: To the Operational Conversion Unit after you left the squadron, 44 Squadron, what do you remember about that?
JS: Can’t remember at the moment
CB: Ok. Now the war finished in Europe on the 8th of May 1945
JS: Yes
CB: What do you remember about the celebrations and the feeling at the end of the war?
JS: I can’t remember it
CB: For some people, they got caught up in the celebrations, others were just on the station
JS: Yes
CB: And work continued as usual
JS: Yes
CB: So
JS: This is, this is, what time?
CB: So, we are talking about May 1945,
JS: Yeah
CB: Was the end of the war in Europe
JS: Yeah
CB: When you were in the Lancaster, 106 squadron and 44, it was the same crew, was it? What do you remember about your crew?
JS: I can’t remember it.
CB: Did you keep in touch?
JS: Mh?
CB: Did you keep in touch with any of your crew after you ended operations and after the war?
JS: Something comes into [unclear], Kensington, Hammersmith, these are places thinking, you know, areas
CB: In your mind, yes
JS: Yeah. Areas of where I might have been
CB: Your family was living there, wasn’t it? Do you remember what the effect on your family was of the V weapons, V-1 and V-2?
JS: The
CB: V-1s and V-2s? What effect did that have on your family? Because they were in the Chiswick, Hammersmith, Kensington area, weren’t they?
JS: Yeah. No, it’s, I can’t remember it,
CB: So, according to the detail that we’ve got, you left the RAF
JS: Yes
CB: In 1947
JS: Ah!
CB: And then you went to work for who?
JS: That could be so of course
CB: You went to work for Joe Lyons
JS: Go to
CB: Joe Lyons
JS: Joe, oh yeah, yeah
CB: What did you do at Lyons?
JS: Lyons, I was with them earlier on, Lyons, yeah, that could be, I had a job with Lyons
CB: Did you do catering before you left the RAF, is that how you came to them?
JS: Before
CB: Did you volunteer to be a catering officer?
JS: Yeah
CB: Before you left the RAF?
JS: It could be, it could be
CB: So, then you went to Joe Lyons in ’47 and you worked with them till ’51
JS: Yeah
CB: When you re-joined the RAF. What was the initiative to do that?
JS: I, yeah, I couldn’t remember this somehow, Piccadilly, Hyde Park, the area, you know, I could be in
CB: Well, there was a J. Lyons in the Strand, wasn’t there?
JS: Yeah, Strand, yes, that’s, yeah.
CB: And something prompted you to re-join the RAF
JS: It could be so, [laughs] I can’t, can’t remember
CB: Ok.
JS: No.
CB: We will pause there
JS: Yeah.
CB: Cause you, you ran the RAF Club from ’76 to ‘91
JS: There could be, that could be something, yeah, could be something
CB: I remember you there
JS: Good to have you here, you know [laughs]? where, was I married by then?
CB: You were, you were, yes
JS: Yeah
CB: What were you doing when you were working at the RAF club?
JS: Ah, that’s a good point, yeah, there’s a lot of [unclear], lot of [unclear] for [unclear], again, I’m not sure on
CB: What was the condition of the RAF club when you became the general manager?
JS: Yeah
CB: What was it like to walk into?
JS: I’ll try and find your book
CB: Was it dingy? It was dingy, rundown
JS: Yeah
CB: And what did you do to change that?
JS: Yeah. I can’t think
CB: You completely transformed the RAF club
JS: I, likely, yes, likely, yeah. Yes, I remember now, I think of the wife, I think I became settled at that time. My goodness, yes. No, I can’t think of much more, it was a base that I could see some very highly, highly rated people, you know, or some youngster, you know, but it was quite a good job, quite a good job, that I enjoyed. I’ll find you some of this, you know
CB: Do
JS: Give me some time after
CB: Yes. Ok.
JS: It’s. I think, I moved out to here, you know, on this organisation, cause I can’t remember much else between that. I, yes, if I look back army and navy don’t to mind to, to look at all, look at the form, I think I was, for now I take a lot of, looking upstairs and saying who is there? I couldn’t, can really pull you off, you know, ideas and what have you. I love to watch the aeroplane going across there
CB: From your house
JS: [unclear] but I, on the other hand, there is not much I can go into, you know, do something but, I was, I was carefully [unclear] with that
CB: Of course, when you were working for Trusthouse Forte, after you left the RAF on the second occasion,
JS. Yeah
CB: You were the director of airport division, weren’t you?
JS: Yes, [unclear]
CB: And then you moved to the RAF Club
JS: Maybe the one, yeah
CB: So you’ve always maintained your fascination with aeroplanes
JS: Yes, oh yeah, yes, yeah
CB: What’s the thing in your mind that stands out most about your career? What do you remember?
JS: We could do that in this area, you know, on occasions, not so much now as was but we, even now, we are doing something in this area, yeah
CB: Well, Jim, thank you very much for talking
JS: Well, I tried
CB: We’ll catch up with more later I think. Thank you
JS: It’s, you could come back and say that I didn’t say [laughs], or it didn’t sound very, you know, and to some extent, it doesn’t. I sit in this area
CB: Yes
JS: Area, small
CB: Your little extension here
JS: Have a look through there often
CB: Through the French windows, yes
JS: Yeah
CB: Well, it’s a lovely garden, isn’t it?
JS: Yes, we, no, I mean, we like this place, but it’s, we run it pretty carefully,
CB: I think it’s very nice
JS: Yeah. We are looking at the moment, course of coming back, in the jobs [unclear] or something, odd things, you know, before but we’re quite happy in this place
CB: I can imagine, it’s very nice
JS: Yeah
CB: And at ninety-two, you deserve a quiet time
JS: Yes [laughs], yes. But the wife knows a lot of things
CB: Yes, well, you’ve told her over the years
JS: Yeah
CB: So, we’ll pick up on those later
JS: Yeah, that’s right
CB: Yes
JS: Yeah
CB: Good
JS: Her views could be different to my views in some areas but yes, she thinks things of certain things I think but there’s a changing over at this moment in time. We have very definitely, I think, we would be more adjusted to this place of we have behind us, you know, with the, the water clubs, here, with clubs in, have you seen the back of the area here?
CB: The back there, yes, yes
JS: Yeah, I said, that’s the area we got here
GB: Now we are looking here at a picture here
JS: Yes
CB: Of you with Diana
JS: Yes
CB: I can’t see your rank at the time but what’s that bring back to you?
JS: That’s right, I’m a navigator
CB: Yes
JS: Yeah, there
CB: In your number 1 uniform, in your number 1
JS: That’s right, yes, that’s her. Does she say that is?
CB: Yes
JS: She does, that’s right. Yeah, that’s it.
CB: Right,
JS: Yeah
CB: Thank you Jim.
JS: Navigator
US2: Busy
JS: Yeah
US2: Yeah
JS: Well, oh yes, sometime, you know, using that or calling somebody else into help
US2: Yeah
JS: And the other but, no, I think I enjoyed that, or, didn’t disenjoy it, Lancaster I think it is, the Lancaster I think but, yeah. I’ve been up occasionally since and it has been, you know, good to get up and go in and see what was you did and what happened to you like and there we are
CB: How did you feel about the bombing? How did you feel about doing the bombing raids?
JS: Sorry?
CB: What did you think about doing the bombing raids?
JS: The bombing ring?
CB: When you were on operations, what did you think about it?
JS: I don’t feel, I don’t feel cheerless about it or you know what have you, but I think I did a couple of main courses and no, I think, I quite used it, quite, quite enjoyed it a long time ago
Collection
Citation
Chris Brockbank, “Interview with James Swaffield,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed April 27, 2024, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/11707.
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