Interview with J Ebanks

Interview with J Ebanks

J Ebanks was from Jamaica and was a navigator in 571 Squadron at RAF Oakington, from where they carried out a number of operations to Berlin. He also refers to RAF Benson and time spent in Malaya. J Ebanks recounts, with humour, a number of anecdotes from his past. He also describes an incident with problems to the engines in the aircraft.

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02:05:36 audio recording

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AEbanksJ[Date]

JE: [unclear] I was at that time in 1940 I was the youngest lay preacher in the Anglican Church. The problem was the more I looked I was already annoyed at [ ] it was just about the time they were you know bulldozing you know countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. I thought at the time he was just a bully you know. [unclear] you know. And that really decided me. My father was there and I had other brothers and sisters. I had five brothers and six sisters but I didn’t tell them anything until I got my ticket for the boat because I knew they would try to persuade me to forget everything and I was not to be persuaded. So I waited until the last minute.
Interviewer: Tell them.
JE: To tell them. I was posted to the Jamaica Squadron, the Jamaica Squadron was founded by people from here. When I went to that squadron there was only [pause] I was the only non-commissioned officer on the station. [unclear] was in a big building all by myself. Anyway, to cut a long story short I totally discarded that and went and was transferred to a place called Oakington. 56. Flew fifty sorties. [unclear] I was emotional with the most embarrassing matter in the end. I went over the target lying in the bottom of the [navigation] [unclear] dropped the bomb. Coming back must be the same [unclear] I said, something. Something you know. I don’t believe the bomb has gone. So he said, ‘Alright let’s go down.’ At that stage we were forty thousand feet you know. I said, ‘Let’s go down another ten thousand feet but [unclear] you know. I don’t want any ack ack. When you get down to twenty thousand feet of course the action wasn’t so bad. And when you dropped then you pressed the button the aircraft dropped about four thousand feet you know. Yeah. [unclear] to look into the abyss [unclear] after that any time the bombs don’t go down. That was an embarrassing thing anyway.
Interviewer: What was the most dangerous operation?
JE: The most dangerous one was [ ] Hamburg as well you know. And they had planes, a thousand planes [unclear]over Hamburg. Hit by ack ack the starboard engine [unclear] you know.
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: No.
Interviewer: [unclear] to get it right.
JE: No. No bomb had gone. Unfortunately, [ ] down the side [unclear] you could coast. At twenty thousand feet you could coast down to twenty thousand feet and by then we were over the sea.
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: The North Sea.
Interviewer: The North Sea. Right.
JE: So the directions, ‘Prepare to bale out.’ I said, ‘Master, you can go over there [unclear] because when you looked down there now it was as black as ink. You see, it was night. About 2 o’clock in the morning. There was no way I was going to bale out [unclear] over the North Sea. I see [unclear] my plane after the fact. [unclear] So fortunately I finally at five thousand feet it seemed that we hit an air lock and we beat them and we were able to [unclear] east coast where they had an emergency landing strip. I very badly hoped that something will happen. But I wasn’t prepared to bale out because you had no chance, you know. Of course, you wouldn’t be more than two minutes and that was my [unclear] you know. we sent an SOS and you couldn’t send an SOS because [unclear] starboard engine. It was the starboard engine had gone. You had no communication.
Interviewer: [unclear].
JE: Another incident when the starboard engine had also gone [unclear] land on the English coast. [unclear] as long as you are in that line you are ok. But anyhow you do it you will be court martialled anyway. [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: It was like magic.
Interviewer: Oh good.
JE: [unclear]
[unclear]
JE: [unclear] flying at you. confidence in aircraft. [unclear] and then there was a squadron commander. [unclear] we left that place and you could see one aircraft. so [unclear] and I just said to the man [unclear] in the air. And that’s when [unclear] to be done you can’t see that evidence.
Interviewer: [unclear] back home in Jamaica [unclear]
JE: [unclear] somebody like you.
Interviewer: [unclear]
[recording paused]
Other: I was in London during the war because we all knew it was coming.
Interviewer: Tell me about it.
Other: I was outside Buckingham Palace when the Queen and Churchill and all the rest arrived. [unclear] It was [unclear] thousands of people there. I mean at one time we never thought it would. It could go the wrong way.
[recording paused – broadcast] One of the generations that came out of the war. This is one of Mr Banks’ two daughters. [unclear]
JE: How long were we celebrating [unclear][unclear]But other than that [unclear] I was sent down [unclear]I couldn’t find work and this man said oh you have to fight for king and country. I said why fight for king and country I want to fight myself and for king and country. [unclear] I said, ‘King and country were secondary.’ And I really mean that you know. he said, ‘What do you mean by that.’ I said, [unclear] went to fight for England. I was fighting for everybody.’ And they were well supported by the Commonwealth. Canada, New Zealand, even South Africa. Rhodesia and old Zimbabwe and the same from all over the world to show [unclear] So [unclear] I said, ‘I resent that.’ You see [unclear] all around the world come here and don’t use those words to me anymore. [unclear]
JE: Anyway, [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: You are being [unclear]
Interviewer: Of course at the time.
JE: No. I cannot claim the same [unclear]
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: My father was a teacher and [unclear] and I don’t know about [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: Anyway, prior to that I didn’t know my grandfather.
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: We are from the same [unclear]
Interviewer: Really?
JE: Yeah.
[unclear
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: The farthest areas. [unclear] there were two. Two brothers in Scotland you know. that is a corruption because Eubank is [unclear] and they decided [unclear] see if they could follow in Columbus’ footsteps to the new world. Then they were [unclear] islands. I don’t know if you know that [unclear] came back and everyone heard the name Eubanks.
Interviewer: Yes. I heard that.
JE: You heard that? Anyway, so one brother said listen I’m not going anywhere now. [unclear] the new world. I’m staying until I found the new world. I’m waiting until we reach America. [unclear] we managed to get any further. Anytime you heard JE: You heard that? Anyway, so one brother said listen I’m not going anywhere now. [unclear] the new world. I’m staying until I found the new world. I’m waiting until we reach America. [unclear] we managed to get any further. Anytime you heard the word Eubanks. I don’t know whether it’s now [unclear] you could get any you like. they came back here and met two sisters. [unclear] and if you could flashback my sister [unclear] Anyway that’s another story
[unclear]
Interviewer: It’s a rare thing.
JE: Oh yes. As I say no Jamaican is like that. [unclear] No man has a uniform. [unclear]
Interviewer: This was the article that —
JE: [unclear] you know. A great country but I didn’t find it [unclear]
Interviewer: Ok. I’ve read this. Ok. Now, to what extent do you think others who went with you or after you to serve were also motivated by a desire to stand up to Hitler or were some of them there for adventure? Others just —
JE: Well, I don’t know. Most of them seemed to be for the adventure. There were never jobs out here. I wasn’t too pleased with that but maybe they were just trying to be deep down there they say. I don’t know. But that had been, I mean they’d do some stupid things in the area. When I got there they found me a navigation school. The first time, from a job point of view the first time [unclear] I automatically got a commission, you know. I I at that stage I was getting homesick and I thought, I thought if I get a commission I might be encouraged to stay in England and I want to go home. So I turned it down and the management, the man who came in he came to my room and said Banksy, I’ve come to thank you.’ I said, ‘What the hell have you come to thank me for.’ So I was sitting on my bed like this. He took off my shoes and kissed them from the bottom. I said, ‘What the hell are you doing? I’m getting frightened now.’
Interviewer: So he was [unclear]
JE: Yes. He was. Whether you call them gay or something. We didn’t call them gays in the force. I said, ‘What are you up to?’ He said, ‘Don’t worry. Don’t worry. I came to thank you because [I’m getting married] to get a commission and because you backed out I’ll get it and become [unclear] And to be honest I said I should have done more work. Anyway, that’s another story. Anyway, be you know just shows. And then after [unclear] when people talk about racism. And I feel very privileged because I think I do believe half of it is caused by ourselves. When I first went to England as it started there were at that stage there were about twenty other [unclear] Some of them were in England at the time [unclear] And when we get over there you’d be walking on the street and people invite you into their home. [ +] Some people meant it you know. And then when by 1944 the influx of West Indians and Africans of what I call the low order came over everything turned around. The same street where people had opened the door and invite you in now you’re walking around there and they say, ‘You are coloured.’ I see the slash and they slam the door and it was because of the behaviour of those people. In 1946 after the war and now I think I have another, two other chances to take my commission and I refused. While I was there the wheels revolved like that. [unclear] This might have been a part of it because some of the English people of the lower class like the ones that speak the [unclear] . As I say when I first come away [unclear] but I don’t take any notice of people like that. And that’s pretty well well after a bit after the end of the war I volunteered for a second tour and they turned me down because they said they had too many aircrew because of that. The fatigue. The aircrew fatigue was a dangerous thing and [unclear] and so [unclear] last long enough after a rest you can come back. So I was sent to Transport Command and I went to a station and this was the most fantastic thing. This Englishman, his name was Stevenson [unclear] but he was the navigation leader and one day he called me and he said, ‘We have just got your, we’ve just got your records from the Air Ministry. Now, we just can’t understand why you keep turning down your commission.’ I said I told you to leave me. To leave me. Yes. I said, ‘Well, the first one you were barely qualified because at that time I thought when the war was over you would apply for your discharge but it turned out that I wouldn’t be discharged for another three years because of my age and I forget what else. [unclear] and something else. So he said, ‘You can forget about that now. I am putting you forward for a commission and you are going to take it.’ And he said, ‘You won’t believe me but it may help you when you get to Civvy Street eventually.’ And the most amazing thing happened even though I’d never known it happen to anybody. I was walking along and I get a call to say I must pick up travel documents and then arrive the next week to the Air Ministry.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: [unclear] station commander that had never happened to anybody from [unclear]. You couldn’t. You couldn’t get to Air Ministry except you got through [unclear]. He must have been very well thought of by the station commander that the station commander he must have shown the form and said, ‘Look. Look at this. Sign it.’ And when I went there I thought my God I wonder how many questions he’s going to ask me. And the air vice marshal greeted me. A few introductions you know and he says, ‘I want to ask you a question.’ I said, ‘Yes, sir.’ He said, ‘When I read your [unclear] I can’t understand why we are having so much trouble with the West Indians and the Jamaicans that are over here. What’s the difference between you and them?’ I said, ‘Do you want an honest answer?’ He said, ‘Yes. Yes.’
[recording stopped]
JE: I said, ‘I will tell you.’ [unclear] He said, ‘What do you mean?’ [unclear] I I see a man there. I see a man walking the street. I said, ‘Except someone tell me who is who I don’t know who he is. As far as I’m concerned they are two Englishmen. But one is [unclear] and one is [unclear] I said, ‘Now, when I was selected to come over here we had had no [unclear] And they could. They could. They could spot just looking at you. They could spot who was somebody. Let’s say middle class or upper class against somebody who was got a rat.’ And I said your committee came over there and that’s what they were doing. They couldn’t differentiate by looking at people and even though we are we are [unclear] if you are in Jamaica you live in certain positions and you know that you are in an area of the lowest of the low.’ I said the air ministry official couldn’t tell that and they said saw all sorts of people who were completely unsuitable and that’s why we had such a bad name. [unclear] people who used to open the door to those that came and now they slam the door in your face.’ I said, ‘I don’t blame them. I don’t hold it against them. I really don’t.’ I went to St Paul’s. At the time I had been graduated from Navigation School yet but I was in London and we, we went to St Paul’s. As I said in those days I was very religious and coming out I was hungry and I saw a gentleman dressed in top hat and morning coat and well [pause] So I stopped him and I said, ‘Excuse me [unclear] he was coming out of the service at St Paul’s. [I mean he hadn’t gone in trainers ] And, ‘I can’t find anywhere here that is like a restaurant or somewhere you can get something to eat,’ you know. He said, ‘My lad, on a Sunday everywhere is closed here. You won’t get anywhere.’ But I’ll tell you what. Of course you know there is rationing. Come home with me and I’m sure my wife will be able to provide a hot meal so you can get something.’ And I went to their place. Do you know who it turned out to be? He was the deputy governor of the Bank of England. And now you tell me about racism. You know what I mean. Most [racism ] in my life was from labourers and not from —
Interviewer: Right.
JE: They had these other people were able to control themselves and don’t show it and that used to say.
Interviewer: They would be more widely travelled as well.
JE: Yeah. And I went to [pause] I was invited to the you know the big thing. The mayor of London and you know they have the big show once a year.
Interviewer: The Lord Mayor’s Show. Yeah.
JE: Lord Mayor’s Show. And I get up and I was there [unclear] with all the big shots and we were chatting and chatting and the gentleman on my right said, [unclear] I said, ‘I have to go now.’ And he said, ‘Excuse me, because I’m on watch.’ Firefighting watch you know. Many bombs come down on the watch and so when he had left I said to the gentleman on my left, ‘Excuse me sir. Who was that nice gentleman who just left?’ He said, ‘Have you ever heard of Lord Allan of the Brook?’ I don’t know if you ever heard of him. He was a famous in 1941 but [unclear] [of the brook battleship?]
Interviewer: No.
JE: That’s fine. He did some fantastic deeds during the First World War.
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: So, you know when people [pause] I was invited to a Welsh family was on one of my stations and we got quite friendly. Invited me to Cardiff and that was really funny because when I had got to a dance tonight. [unclear] When we went to the dance place the man said [unclear] the Welshman. I’m sorry sir. You can’t come in.’ I said, ‘Why? Why is that? It’s peculiar. I’m with my friend.’ He said, ‘Well, we have to take a decision. Last week a group of you fellows came and they nearly wrecked the place so we have taken the —’ [laughs] What could I say? I couldn’t get angry with the man. Eh? [unclear] it won’t bother me. So the next day he said, ‘We’ll walk around and show you the castle and so on.’ When we got to the mayor’s parlour this man dressed up in his robe and so on you know. Do they call them commissioner? At the gates. So I said to my friend [unclear] bothered by them. I said to my friend, I said, ‘I think I’ll go and see my friend the mayor.’ He said, ‘You’ll walk in there?’ I said, ‘Of course, [unclear] he looked you know. So I went to the gates and I said, ‘Please,’ I said, 'Is the mayor, is the mayor in?’ He said, ‘Yes, sir. Yes.’ Very polite. And I said, ‘Well, please tell him you know he’s connected by phone that Ebanks of Jamaica is here and would like to see him.’ The mayor said, ‘Bring him up right away.’ But he left my friend outside in the cold in wintertime you know. poor thing. I went up there. Guess what happened. Of course he didn’t know who Ebanks was or thought. When I got up there and I found out why his response was so good and my friend after I didn’t have the heart to tell him. He used to be a captain on a ship plying between Bristol [unclear]anyway and Jamaica. Picking up sugar and what not.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: And he said, ‘This is about thirty years that I’ve ever heard or seen anybody from Jamaica. When I heard you were from Jamaica I had to see you. One and a half hours my friend down there chat chat chat. I said, well this one and that one when or when and he gave me a book called Wales and somebody has thrown it out of my briefcase. It was stored in my briefcases with all my addresses. I feel so embarrassed sometimes. And when I went back anyway you know I didn’t believe you. But it’s true. So in consternation he says to me and his family used to make fun of me. Went sky high. I didn’t have the courage to tell them the truth. But that was just luck. Right. Maybe another mayor would have said, ‘Send him up for five minutes or so.’ But he was really genuinely interested just to because there was somebody from Jamaica [unclear] with me. But it’s so, so it goes along all the time. I mean when I was outside Cambridge on one of the training routes, one of the training stations there we had two Jamaicans going there and I came across them and I met an English girl who worked with me there and she invited me to attend a couple of lectures. I’m sure she fell in love with me. I fell in love with her too but she was Jewish. I know she was not a practicing Jew and invited me home. Her mother and father who were practicing Jews they were so charming and the brother was doing well. He had, ad he had graduated from Guys Hospital and he was doing a special course. What do they call it now? Post graduate course in psychology or something.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: And he used to without bitterness he used to say, ‘Every time you come here my mother deep down in some place and time something and she’ll never do that for me.’ [laughs] But it was in good, you know good view. I mean, I mean you know really we eventually broke up because there again I was very stupid. Her father incidentally was a Hutton, you know there’s a Hutton Street where they cut diamonds.
Interviewer: I used to work next to Hatfield Street in London. Faringdon. I was a fireman. The same department.
JE: Well, he was a diamond merchant. So —
Interviewer: My family were diamond merchants for a Jewish family.
JE: Yeah.
Interviewer: But not in London. In Amsterdam.
JE: In Amsterdam. Yeah. Quite a place. The Jews were very good at that. So anyway, I decided I would go to base and there we were and my friend said to me, this is a different friend now, ‘My wife is coming up so, but I’m flying tonight so I don’t know what time I will come back. So will you go and meet her and tell her I’m flying.’ Well, he never came back. [unclear] So I said, ‘You know something. There’s no way I’m going to get married to anybody until I have finished flying.’ I broke up because I was too kind.
[background chatter]
Other: Are you still on?
Interviewer: I’m still here.
JE: I made that they were Jewish and the treatment like a son. No. Really you know. So I get no way am I going with this racial thing because I’m not saying there is none but if you really thank people who were either what we would call [unclear] out here. Uneducated. It’s the ones that don’t show it because of their social truck with that. They don’t want to annoy anybody but then that’s all behind isn’t it? And then there were so many incidents. Three or four incidents that I have found were from people who I would never have met anyway. So why should I run ever? Yeah. And as I say if the fellows who came over behaved themselves. When I was on Transport Command, this is after the war now the same place with this nice navigation leader. I’d just got commissioned but then then it is always to find people of the Jamaican officer on the squadron. They really did the same to [unclear] [pause] a station outside of Oxford because they have been shown as having trouble with the Jamaicans. So I rushed there to see [unclear] ‘We can’t find out who it is. They won’t do anything because of the force regulation. And we just don’t know what to do. So we hoped you’d be able to help us.’ If you find [unclear] tell him that when he’s in the station we’ll hand it back to him.’ There were no restriction against us. Anyway, I went off to talk to the fellows and eventually with a fellow named [Keeley] the youngest one you know. He must have signed up before he was of the age to. And yet he was there. he was the bad boy [laughs] Nice [unclear] I don’t know what I’m doing and eventually he brought me the gun. Then we formed a cricket team and we won a cricket trophy. They never used to have billet inspection. I forget what the prize was but there was a prize every week. Maybe just a weekend pass or something like that you know. I know [unclear] nobody ever won the prize for the best billet. I said it should be shared. I said, ‘Come on now. Let’s win the prize. We will beat them.’ And we did. But the amazing thing was [unclear] One fellow for instance refused. He had [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: Yes after. Which was against the rules. [unclear] begged him to cut it out and he refused. So he was charged before the CO. I was present at his trial. So when all the evidence was gathered and go inside before sentence and the CO said to me, ‘What do you think?’ I said, ‘Sir, he’s not too right intellectually.’ And I don’t think he understood what the station commander was saying. Let me talk to him.’ And they let him out. He said, ‘Alright. I’ll leave it to you.’ [unclear] and then he called it off. Well, you know you had incidents like that where it was I mean absolutely no idea of discipline. Most of the [unclear] are like that considering what I’ve told you about this very station. I go visiting all the various departments and the equipment department clothes, shoes, you name it. The officer in charge of that I found out that now that most of the Jamaicans on the camp were in that department. And I went to him and I said, ‘Well, what do you think of the fellows? I mean I’m here because of reports that they want to smash up the station and I just wondered if there was a feeling from somebody like you.’ You know, what is there to me?’ He said, ‘Well, let me tell you I wish I had all Jamaicans in my department.’ He said, ‘They work twice as hard as the English fellows. Any one from any of the other islands and I wish all of them were.’ You know it was so it was almost a contradiction. And he, he really meant it. He wasn’t just saying that because I told him that they were [unclear] and they nearly wrecked the station and that’s why I’m here. And that was his assessment of the fellows who were there and he had the most. There were forty two of them and he had the most of the forty two. So how do you relate to racism with that? You know what I mean? Other than the station [unclear] and there were so many of us the officer’s mess was very, completely housed because they had two shifts to eat. Well, I didn’t know that and I went and the CO was at the bar. And I said some of us were waiting for the second [unclear] and then eventually —
[telephone ringing – recording interrupted]
Interviewer: You were talking about the base.
JE: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JE: So, [unclear] [too much background noise from a machine] The CO noticed something. I didn’t notice anything. I said it was [unclear] and the CO called him and said, ‘If you ever do that again you are going to be in trouble.’ And the fellow walked out quite shame faced so the CO must have picked up on the fact that he got up as I started arriving. The CO called me and he said, ‘As long as you are on the station do not accept any ill manners or any peculiarities from any of the officers and men on the station. If you do you just come straight to me and let me know. well, how can I tell him when it is. For the rest of the last year the commemoration [unclear] told us and I went, got an invitation to go on the yacht on the Thames to watch the fireworks. The Queen and the Duke were on that. I say I saw the Queen several times. I said I would prefer to —
Interviewer: Thank you very much.
JE: Be unsure. Don’t forget your book. So I went around [unclear] a neighbour went around. Saw me and came up to me and said, [unclear] your name. So I do. Other people there you know [unclear] you are invited to [unclear] ‘You have a fantastic record.’ Where did they get that from after fifty years. They said they never destroy anything you know. and when they knew we were coming it was like all the things from [unclear] So he called this, he said he was on duty, called this then girlfriend and said, ‘Now you take care of Ebanks.’ [unclear] I got to watch the fireworks. Fantastic fireworks. They cost twenty million dollars. It was worth it though. Anyway took pictures and all sorts of things. Then it was time to say goodbye. [unclear] An invitation to the Royal Box [unclear] We were one step higher than the Queen. When I got there the WAAF in the Air Force and she also had [unclear] people were supposed to [pause] she asked for my name and she checked it out and she escorted and go right across my name boldly. So I sat down there. So I decided that I would wait and left them the night before. [unclear] coming toward the entrance. I was near the entrance and he comes up to me and said, ‘Oh, nice to see you.’ He said, ‘I want you to meet the lady.’ So I thought he was great and he was like [unclear] she here. He sat down and said, ‘Now tell me who is this.’ When you go you will find out. [unclear] marching along. Dame. The lady who used to sing the older songs.
Interviewer: Oh, I know what you mean. Oh.
JE: Dame.
Interviewer: She used to sing for the boys and then she sang —
JE: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes, I saw her. I saw her sing at the anniversary.
JE: Yeah. Yes. So when I went I didn’t even get the chance to say, ‘Well, I feel honoured meeting you.’ She said, ‘I’m highly honoured to have the privilege of meeting you.’ You know. You can’t get a greeting better than that. And we chatted for about ten minutes and going back all the eyes popping out. The whole royal family was there except Diana wasn’t there and you had general, the air vice marshals and senior marshals of this and that and you could see that their eyes were popping out you know like this. Wonder who. They must have been wondering who I was you know to be getting such treatment. Dame Vera Lynn.
Interviewer: That’s right.
JE: [unclear] Then and I just got some photograph yesterday. He had a baby in September. Sent me a photograph of the baby. I said, ‘I hope I could be the Jamaican godfather.’ And she said she would be quite honoured and I got some more pictures only yesterday and he’s travelling all over the place. [unclear] he goes to Brussels, Russia, all over the place like you and she said she hardly see him. [unclear] they might come to Jamaica but it don’t look possible. No. They might get a transfer. Anyway, but you know the point I’m trying to make is that where does one draw the line? Where does one say if you are really fair minded where does one say he’s [unclear] when I got there for the fireworks he didn’t have to, he didn’t have to come and ask who I was. I was just standing there as a guest. He didn’t have to do that. So it must have been genuine and he called his wife to be and her sister and his mother and her mother and we were all in a group for the longest possible time. Now, you don’t tell me that [pause] we weren’t [unclear] But that’s what I’m saying. You’re not, you know people when I talk say I’m prejudiced because I’m married to an English girl. But that’s not what it is. In actual fact the prejudice coming out usually from the very lowest rank.
Interviewer: From both sides.
JE: Yeah. And secondly you can’t go to somebody’s country and that’s why I didn’t stay in England because that’s all the, people say you can’t go. There’s nothing there for you. I said, ‘Well, if I can’t make a living in my own country I shouldn’t expect to make anything in somebody else’s country. Maybe it goes the wrong way because if I had stayed there I’d be getting a big English pension now. I’d be sitting pretty. You know, like your uncle there is. I don’t know why but all the troubles work and work and work you get a big pension. He stayed in after the war and and qualified for an Air Force pension which was quite [pause] Don’t tell him I told you that.
Interviewer: Well, he told me the story. I won’t tell him.
JE: Don’t tell because you know people will say that’s your business and why would you repeat it? [unclear] But I’m just pointing out to you and I must say that if the people who came over behaved themselves you can’t expect to go to another man’s country and [unclear] you see. You get some Jamaicans [unclear] and the noise when they turn up like they are born in a place. They have no respect for the —
Interviewer: Neighbours.
JE: Let’s say they have no respect for the natives. That’s not right. And when they get into trouble now [unclear] if you behave yourself in England where my daughter lives in the Forest of Dean when I went there there are no coloured people live around there and man I go to the pub and I walk along by some place and so on. [unclear] at that stage. I don’t know. And there is actually no sign of any racial funny business.
Interviewer: Right.
JE: Because [unclear] ‘Good morning. How are you? Spending holiday?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ Very nice village. I’m going to the pub. If anyone want to buy me a drink I’ll buy them back a drink. And you know —
Interviewer: It’s an attitude thing.
JE: How can I say I remember east of the Forest of Dean just outside [unclear] what is the name of the little village. [unclear] and these were workmen too having a drink. Chat and chat and chat and they were furious because they say, ‘Have you seen —' [unclear] There’s a group of young fellows and they were English fellows coming down from the north and they are stopping on the way and every national health place that they reach too they stop and get money and they give a [unclear] and he said they never work and they’re giving them transportation. And they were furious. So they said to me [unclear] I bet you could get something. Yeah. That’s all. I tell you I can’t complain. I can’t complain.
Interviewer: What about, still about this one. ok. What about, going back to the war the actual experience now of combat missions. What do you remember of that? What did that feel like at the time?
JE: Well, the thing is that I mean obviously at first you were always nervous because you go to briefing and one day you say [unclear] and I don’t know where they get their statistics from but they would say the crew aircrew [unclear]. So we were in a squadron that when the thousand bomber raids were taking place, the thousand bomber raids say they went to A but B was a city near to the A. So our Mosquitoes, twenty or thirty of them would go there. If you would concentrate on that now thinking that why are they [unclear] the Lancasters and what not would go there and try to take them by surprise.
Interviewer: So you were a diversion.
JE: A diversion. Yeah.
Interviewer: Ok.
[pause] [background chatter]
JE: We were talking now but as one of the things there said the next four weeks time we went to the same target and you know oh we have news that they have increased on account of an air raid bombing the place. They have increased from two hundred to four hundred ack ack guns at that time. Have got more than thirteen to, around thirteen, thirteen guns to one you know. So the chances didn’t match. But it didn’t work out like that all the same because we didn’t carry guns. We only depended on speed once you dropped your bomb [pause] A little story there. When I went on this op we were twice over the same place. Hamburg we realised our engine had been hit by ack ack and it was unfortunate that one, that the port engine decided to pack up as well because of the, well we believed it was due to the fact that that created a starboard engine going out had created an air block and the port engine wasn’t getting any fuel. When we came down lower we were very fortunate it picked up and we were able to make this. Now, that was another case to worry about. When we got to the emergency station this is 3 o’clock in the morning you know. Now, we go to the cookhouse. They were open twenty four hours and when we went in there [unclear] the sergeant inside, a woman and there was the most beautiful [pause] a most beautiful vase with flowers. [unclear] I said to her, I said you know, ‘Have you got a vase to take back to camp?’ Then I was known as the man who brought back a vase of flowers from Berlin. And then when we got back to camp you know the operation was [unclear] who come back and who don’t come back. And when we got back there the girls were all in tears you know they were so glad to see us and [unclear] they were in tears.
Interviewer: Because they had you down as missing.
JE: Yeah. [unclear] I mean, you know, what can I say? We had to think of these things. You see our squadron really was we [unclear] going to bomb. It was mainly psychological. As I say we didn’t carry [unclear] and we were supposed to [pause] anytime we were in the air we were supposed to go to Berlin. But sometimes you can’t get to Berlin and back so we’d take an alternative target. But we had more trips to Berlin than anywhere else. I still have my logbook. It’s down here.
Interviewer: What was the squadron number?
JE: Eh?
Interviewer: What was the squadron number?
JE: 571.
Interviewer: 571.
JE: 571 based at Oakington.
Interviewer: Sorry? Based at?
JE: Oakington.
Interviewer: Oakington.
JE: [unclear]
Other: Yes.
JE: What was the name of the station outside Reading?
Other: Eh?
JE: The station outside Reading when I met you in Reading.
Other: Benson.
JE: Benson.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: Between Oxford and, Oxford and Reading.
Interviewer: [unclear] So near Reading.
JE: Near Reading. Yes. That’s right. All sorts of [unclear]. When I finished training before we went on operations we went to a station down south. I’d have to have my logbook to see. Anyway, it was a station where they trained pilots. Pilots were trained. It was a pilot instructor’s course. In other words you were a trained pilot to be instructors to other pilots and they would have a navigator on board to make sure that they didn’t get lost.
Interviewer: Right.
JE: Of course because there was a lot of night flying. Well, talk about waiting but his was a definite weekend tryst. One night, one day rather in the morning my good friend, an English fellow came to me and said, ‘Look, I am due on tonight and you are not due out. So if you would take my place for me one of these days because I’m going to London to see my wife and I might not be back in time.’ So [unclear] To my surprise just when I got dressed and everything in battle dress going down towards the flight offices he’s coming. I said, ‘What are you doing here?’ I believe he had a tiff with his wife I’m sure because he would not have come back because everything was set. So he said, ‘Alright, look I’ll take over here.’ And there again bad judgement. They took off, went out and never came back. Upavon was the name of the station. Upavon in Wiltshire. It was on a sort of promontory you know and you would have nice clear skies one minute and second, the next minute ten tenths cloud. And if you used common sense and experience when you see cloud like that you don’t come in. You go around somewhere else if you have enough petrol, aviation fuel. You circle around and then you go to another station and land. They came back and the thing flew right down and there was a concert going on in one of the hangars and the plane crashed in that [unclear] and time. [unclear] you know, the high ground and what not. They came back, if they hadn’t come so quickly they might have been alive but they were smothered by the thing that put out the flame.
Interviewer: The foam. Was it the foam?
JE: Eh?
Interviewer: Was it foam?
JE: Foam. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JE: And you know that was why I said [unclear] to that. Now, my friend who was English asked me to help him. I willingly agreed to help him.
[recording interrupted]
JE: He didn’t have to come back. I don’t know up to this day why he came back. I didn’t ask him but I just had a feeling that he had a bust up with his wife and said, ‘I’m going back to camp.’ Anyway, [unclear] damned cheek to come to me and say, ‘You should have been in that plane you know. You should have been killed like my friend.’ Another friend of his.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: I said, ‘What do you mean by that?’ I said, ‘I wasn’t supposed to be flying. When my friend asked me if I would change place with me willingly I will but he came back and said he would take over so why do you tell me I should, I’m the one who should have been killed?’ I can’t understand that. Anyway, he walked away quite shamefaced. [unclear] he felt bad for this friend you know so I forgive. And it’s a funny thing when I went to Malaya, my wife [unclear] anyway this fellow was just about my best friend at the station except for [unclear] an officer who was incidentally a Jew. And I want to tell you remember when I told you about my friend in England in Hatton Gardens? He was the only one [unclear] English officer there [unclear] but he was the only one who went out of his way to take me under his arms as it were because he was an older man than I was and his wife had come out there with him. He was one who was a flight lieutenant and he befriended me and invited me home and so on and his wife [unclear]. She had an awful scar. I don’t know where she got it. Probably during the war. This was way back in 1950 or about and you know they were so nice. They had a little boy. They were so nice that you know after a time after a time, after about three times the wife [unclear] scar you know and it was as if the scar as if it had disappeared and yet it was there.
Interviewer: You just —
JE: Yeah. And but there again [unclear] operation business it was, it was on the other foot because when the wife came over you still have a [unclear] no. A Friday night was Ladies Night at the Officer’s Mess and they would bring their wives and they couldn’t, they couldn’t come to the bar. They had to stay in their special lady’s room. So the first night I took the wife. Sat her down. There were three other wives there. I was thinking they wouldn’t drink anything. When I went to the bar I saw the husbands were there. Anyway, I said to the barman, ‘Please go and take the take an order from the wife and three other ladies.’ And so he did. So I thought to myself now will their husbands in turn go will they see them arriving. Anyway, after an hour I went in and the wife said, ‘What’s happening?’ She refused to go [unclear] ‘I have to make that drink last a whole hour.’ I said, ‘What happened to the other husbands? Did they say anything about money?’ ‘Oh no.’ I’d been sitting there like [unclear] and I used to play darts with the padre. The Anglican padre. He was a real rascal. When I say rascal [pause] [unclear] and I don’t think he treated his wife too nicely but when I used to go to service 6 o’clock on a Sunday morning and he would continue a five minute sermon but he was so good. English. English everything you know that you wish he would continue you know. That sort of thing. Anyway, so when he had [unclear] nobody could beat us so we didn’t, we didn’t [unclear] he was playing for drinks and on a Saturday night he would stay until 5 o’clock in the morning and we both go off to church, the chapel for 6 o’clock service. Anyway, so now I went to the wife and I said, ‘What happened today? Not one of those husbands even looked in once. If you hadn’t ordered two rounds of drinks they would have been sitting there all evening without anybody. So anyway the next night I know [unclear] and I’m afraid I was [unclear]1 o’clock in the morning. I mean you know can you, you would think I’m lying wouldn’t you?
Interviewer: I can, I can picture it happening but it’s incredible.
JE: But there was another incident on the station too. Nothing to do with racism actually but this young fellow, a flying officer he was flying control officer. As the time came through people were [unclear]. So one day you’d be on from six thirty to 1 o’clock. Another day one until 7 o’clock. And then nights maybe nine 10 o’clock. When [pause] I just lost my [pause] oh yes. oh yes, I’m back on. Back on the street. I noticed he’s coming in from his morning shift and there [unclear] there were about ten officers [unclear] and as he came through the bar door he said, ‘Gentlemen, have a drink.’ And everybody said, ‘Yes, thank you.’ Ordered this ordered that. I was [unclear] too. And then but then you can [unclear] and he’s on the bar now. He’s in the bar [unclear] to go on duty. And I never come in. He said, ‘Come gentlemen, have a drink.’ I mean, every time he came in. In and out. In and out. So I noticed that and for a couple of weeks I said, ‘No. No thanks.’ And he said, ‘Oh my money not good enough.’ I said, ‘No, it’s not good enough because [unclear].’ He said, ‘What do you mean.’ He said, ‘Can’t you see your friends are taking advantage of you. You are sitting on the bar. Everybody that comes in you offer them a drink. When you come in is it [unclear] vice versa.’ [unclear] A couple of nights passed and the CO called me. I don’t know why he called me. [unclear] Anyway, the CO called me and said, ‘Now, look, whether he heard I was going to do this or whatever you know. he said, ‘Now, I believe you used to do the Officer’s Mess Book. You know, the accounts. And he called me and he said I don’t know if you noticed with the with the ridiculous amount this officer is called to pay every night.’ I said, ‘Yes, sir. I know. I refused to have a drink with him because [unclear] and people are taking advantage of him. [unclear] and because even when I signed it and the signing is a written warning. [unclear] He’s going to be court martialled. Number one, we are not allowed to treat if it’s not peacetime and we are not allowed to treat but generally on here we closed our eyes to it. But if necessary we would be back and forth and if he doesn’t stop it would be a court martial because he’s spending more than his pay. So I sat him down and I talked to him and show him that [unclear] and many people had taken advantage of him and he stopped it. He had to or he would have been before the CO. But it shows that you wouldn’t called that racism because he was being an idiot. People were taking advantage you know. I’m not, I know my limitations. I’m a very generous person but don’t you run the risk to take advantage of me. I have a friend from Jamaica who cannot afford, he cannot afford to entertain. I entertain him all the time and I don’t hold it against him. But I have some friends when I was at the club and he would buy them a drink for ten straight.
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: I refused to be, you know, I refuse to be [pause] I am not having money issues. If you can’t afford to buy a drink I’ll buy you a drink every day but if you can afford it and you are just [unclear] I started this fund for the old boys. The ones that, the ones that when I found out that in 1941 they were badly treated and they were all dying of starvation I started a fund to get them a decent meal at [unclear] and they used to go begging. And you know five or six [unclear] ten cents out of them or ten P you’d be lucky. They wouldn’t give a damned things and the last one [unclear] three years ago. I said to him [unclear] I don’t know if you can managed to host the Christmas treat again. We used to give them money and presents and a good lunch. Turkey, ham, the works. And [unclear] he said, he said, ‘John, why do you keep giving to these people. They should have been dead long ago.’ Well, you can imagine I’m going —
Interviewer: [unclear]
JE: If he had said that and then sat down and wrote me a cheque for five thousand dollars which he could. I would say well he was teasing me. He was being humorous. But he walked away and didn’t even give me ten cents. So he meant it, right and people like that I don’t have any use for. I’m sorry but I I —
Interviewer: I agree with you.
JE: [unclear] but man I tell you I can’t forgive people like that. A nice English [unclear] and his charming wife. But by the way there was another incident. Nothing to do with racial. [unclear] I remember that and out there this fellow and his wife was coming by boat to Singapore and we were supposed to be say like today and he came to me and he said, ‘We might have to fly down to Singapore to meet the wife but I’m on duty tonight.’ We had to go around to [++] you had guards there because of the communist uprising. So you had to visit every so often and be sure they were not sleeping and said, ‘Sure man. When there is going to be a guard change we’ll do one.’ So [unclear] is about 5 o’clock I was resting in my billet, in my room, my billet [unclear] He said, ‘Oh dear. Just got a message to say that the ship is late and won’t be coming until tomorrow. So do you want [unclear]? Ok, I’ll check back. Well, you know every time I think of it it’s always fine. About 9 o’clock we got the news. Went to one of the posts in the outskirts during this visit you know. He comes out of the jeep, we had to carry a gun with a lanyard all the time. He comes out of the jeep. Can you imagine. The lanyard standing up in the handle. Pulled the gun out. Dropped like a stone and the gun went off and shot him right through [unclear] Now, that’s a true story. That’s not made up.
Interviewer: Incredible.
JE: I was one in about ten billion.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JE: Twenty million.
Interviewer: Yeah. Just for it to drop and go off.
JE: Yeah. [unclear] and the next day his wife is coming.
Interviewer: On the ship.
JE: On the ship. [unclear] sent her back home because she didn’t come to the funeral. Maybe they sent back his body to England.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: So after that do you know something. Anybody asked me to I’m not doing it because it seemed to be [pause] it seemed to be a thing for to get somebody killed. Two incidents. I mean our road was so far apart it was you could say identical. So I said no. No more volunteering to trap you in the middle of the night. I don’t care what they called me. I’m fine. I wouldn’t. So what else can I say?
Interviewer: Well, I mean that’s, I’m going to leave you now because I said I’m preparing —
JE: No. No. About that —
Interviewer: But that is all —
JE: We don’t have lunch until half past one. it’s only five to one now so that’s fine.
Interviewer: I’ve got another engagement but —
[recording paused]
Other: There was one Christmas when I think they all had too much to drink and I think the medical officer wasn’t it flying around amongst the coconut trees and killed somebody. Then after we left there was another very nice couple. They had two children and he went down in the jungle and his wife, they had two little boys she strangled the two little boys and tried to commit suicide.
JE: Oh yes. I forgot about —
Other: They rescued her in time but unfortunately the two little boys were by then dead. Various things happened there. so there may have been something to do with this fact that —
JE: His medical training.
Other: It was built on a sacred site and should never have been —
JE: No, but the English, the English —
Other: Well I know that. I know they took all the, what was it? The Hindu and all the priests and this that and the other, sprinkled holy water around the rest of —
JE: It was [unclear]
Other: In the two years that we were there, two and a half, three years there were quite a lot of —.
JE: Yeah, but I remember the other officers that came back from he was out bombing the communist guerilla site and when he came back the plane went right in and, oh no you weren’t there then.
Other: But even when, even when I was there —
JE: They went right down there.
Other: There were quite a few fatalities.
JE: And when they dug him out that poor medical man he wouldn’t give up. Everybody said, ‘No. You’re wasting your time.’ He said, ‘A plane can’t go nose dives like that.’ And his only way you see. He couldn’t be alive. And yet he walked [unclear] again. Part of life eh.
Interviewer: So there was still life in the man when, when he was —
JE: No, I don’t think so.
Interviewer: Ok.
JE: Couldn’t be. But he was determined that he must try every possible thing. And a nice fellow too but [pause] I forgot about that. The one with the children you know. But the sacred site on which the airfield was built and the thing is if I’m not superstitious. I don’t believe in these superstitions. The English did a very good job of appeasing the natives that you know they didn’t use any force to take it over. It was all done by confab and mutual agreement and they paid so much and they’d do so much and the holy water sprinkling and everything. So it was all done nice and gentlemanly. No force or anything. But the things that happened you would think why. If you were superstitious you would think there was something in it you know. But I don’t think so. But you know out there I [pause] as far as I was concerned was more nerve wracking than say flying over Germany.
Interviewer: Really. Because of the guerilla —
JE: Yeah, because you see you were walking along and you don’t know who was friend and who was foe. You can’t tell. It was like what I told you about the English selectors not being able to [pause] to differentiate. Well, I could differentiate who was friend and who was foe. Any minute somebody might stab you in the back. So you had to have eyes in your back as well as in your side and you know it was nerve wracking. It was nerve wracking.
Interviewer: How did you feel about the [ pause] ok, you’re West Indian. The guys, the fellas who were fighting against the British supposedly they were fighting for independence from colonial rule. Did you, did you feel any sympathy at all towards them? Was there any conflict in itself?
JE: Well, if you talk about Jamaica [pause] I didn’t really because if I’m honest I think I proved myself right because it was the whole thing was called macho mach. The leaders were not so much fighting about independence but about them getting them power which they weren’t accustomed to. That was my frank opinion you see because I don’t know about other countries but I mean Jamaica for instance from a colonial point of view and up to now people will tell you we are a lot better off as colonials than as independents.
Interviewer: Right.
JE: So that in those days I was teaching at the time and this was all down in the cane fields and [unclear] That was not the fault of the British government. That was the, let’s say it was what Shakespeare called customs of the time. Other people refused to acknowledge the customs of the time. I mean about [unclear] companies came here and changed the whole aspect of labour relationships and started paying these people under the American plan and overpaid them and because they overpaid them everybody wanted to be overpaid and people couldn’t afford it. So they [unclear] You call that independence? And right now it is still happening. Jamaica Public Services settled a ridiculous award by an industrial tribunal. Everybody is going to want that sort of thing and [unclear] just can’t afford it. When it come and if you look back with any honesty you find that even those days in Jamaica they were I think there were I think they were more in favour than me because they realised in the end that if your slaves were treated humanely and were well looked after they would last longer so they would get more out of them than if they were ill treated [unclear]
[background shouting]
JE: Ok. It’s illegal to have firecrackers but nobody is taking any notice of it. Ok.
Interviewer: [unclear] over here.
JE: Yeah. As the wife say if they were [unclear] not one time. But you one one ten minutes time, ten minutes time, ten minutes time and the poor dogs.
Interviewer: Children will always have their firecrackers.
JE: So what were we saying?
Interviewer: We were talking about the Jamaican situation.
JE: Would you like another drink?
Interviewer: No, I’m fine. In fact, I promised. I have children because I fly tomorrow morning I promised I would take them to the pool one last time before the flight. So I’m going to have to leave soon. But I’m fine. Thanks. I have two kids. Two girls.
JE: Two girls.
Interviewer: One’s fourteen.
JE: Fourteen.
Interviewer: And one’s eight.
JE: You don’t look old enough.
Interviewer: Just old enough.
JE: Yeah.
Interviewer: Just old enough. I started early.
JE: That’s lovely.
Interviewer: But this has been very useful believe me.
JE: Well, I hope you can use it.
Interviewer: [unclear] the human side you know.
JE: Yeah.
Interviewer: Is helpful. Very useful.
JE: Oh yes. [unclear] before you go.
Interviewer: Ok.