Interview with Doug Jennings

Interview with Doug Jennings

While on operations with 5 Squadron Doug Jenning and his crew were forced to abandon their burning aircraft. The pilot died in the aircraft. Doug and the flight engineer separately evaded capture and returned to the UK. Doug went on to further operations with 9 Squadron. He had about eight operational flights before the war ended. On one operation the pilot had to fly the aircraft home with wheels locked down because of the failure of the hydraulics. At the end of the war the squadron was disbanded and Doug joined 50 Squadron first at RAF Sturgate and then RAF Waddington.

01:34:32 audio recording

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RA: Doug Jennings. 9 Squadron, Bardney 1945 with. Douggie Tweddle’s crew. Done on the 4th of July 2005. Doug is in Lincolnshire. He’s been, he’s written a book and he’s had a signing day at East Kirkby and he’s now come over to Roger Audis, 9 Squadron Association historian and we’re going to have a chat. Ok. Doug, when did you actually get, come to Bardney? Obviously we’ve read your book where, where you [pause] were shot down.
DJ: Yes.
RA: And then you evaded capture etcetera.
DJ: Yes.
RA: And then you came back. Did you just want to put something on your fifty seven days when you were shot down?
DJ: It’s in the book.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: It’s all in there.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: Yes, it is. I got through about seventeen ops with 57 Squadron from the end of April ’44 and as you know at that time Arthur Harris, our dear friend had been more or less told, you know Portal said, ‘I’m going to take over the strategic forces for the invasion. As far as your area bombing is concerned you know you’ll have to kind of step back a bit.’ Harris agreed to that. I think he was quite a reasonable character. And so from the time that I joined 57 we were more or less thrown straight into targets in France, Belgium, Holland, the outskirts of Germany trying to break up the transport system for the invasion of D-Day in June. So we were busy doing guns and all those kind of things and in between time there was only the odd occasional flight, the odd occasional trip that you had to do to places in Germany like Brunswick. We went to Brunswick. The night we were shot down we were going to Wesseling in the Ruhr to bomb railway stations. Well, up to, up to that time, that seventeenth op we’d seen a lot of mayhem. We’d been, done Mailly le Camp which was a bit of a bloodbath. That was about only on our third trip that we’d done that one. We were thrown in at the deep end. We hadn’t been attacked by fighters, we took a lot of flak. As I say it was amazing that there was a lot of collisions in mid-air. The German fighters had caught up with us at the end. But on this particular night which happened to be the longest night of the year the 21st of June ‘44 we got, we got going and we were flying across Holland/North Belgium on our way to the target and there was a blooming great bang. We kind of went over on one side. We’d been hit by an ack ack shell which went straight through the wing and set the whole blooming lot on fire. In fact, when I looked out the flames were going right back from the wing right back to the tail. So, my pilot at the time, a chap called Guilyn Guy, Ginger Guy we called him because he had really colourful red hair he made an instant decision and he said, ‘We’ll have to bale out.’ It was left to obviously to the pilot to make that kind of decision and it was a very wise one in his case because, well as it transpired all the crew got out. All of them survived the war actually. But the pilot got killed. He went down with the aircraft and you can say really is that we all owe our life to him.
RA: What was it like when you, when you were hit and then what was in your thoughts? You know, ‘I’ve got to get out of here,’ or, ‘Oh my God.’ Or do you grab your parachute because obviously you’ve never parachuted before.
DJ: No. Never parachuted before. I imagine my thoughts were, I thought well I’ve got to move because I was sat at the navigator’s table. In 57 Squadron at the time we had H2S and as 5 Group the bomb aimer used to operate the H2S alongside the navigator who was working the Gee and I had to leave the navigator’s table to go down into the nose to get the parachute on. The drill if there was a drill I mean we used to practice it regularly. We had no hesitation. We knew what to do. The drill was that the bomb aimer, the flight engineer and the navigator went out of the front hatch. The wireless operator, the mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner went out of the rear entrance door at the back. Often the rear gunners used to switch their turret around, open the back doors and fall out backwards as way quicker than going back through the fuselage. But actually, I know this is a technical point, it was the wrong kind of drill to do that because the wireless operator was trained to knock on his, on the back of his turret to check that he was there and if he had already left it was, it was a delay in time to make sure there was nobody in the turret. However, that’s just a point. So you were asking earlier what did I think about. I just decided that it was time for me to move outside. The aircraft was full of smoke so I got through to the front, pulled up the hatch and the flight engineer was just beside me and out I went.
[pause]
[recording paused]
RA: Yeah. Sorry, carry on.
DJ: Yeah. You were asking me about what my feelings were.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: Well, as I say in the book it was amazing really. My first feelings were I felt that this was the end. I never seemed overcome or sad about that. Then a great feeling of calm came over me. I’ve never felt anything like it since. You know, I think a lot of people were trapped like that in their aircraft during the war and I like to think that they experienced this calm and this feeling of euphoria really. You couldn’t do any more. This is the end and that’s it. It was a wonderful feeling. Anyway, as I say the aircraft was filling with smoke. I had to stand by [unclear] and go out of the front hatch, pull the hatch up, the flight engineer alongside me. I looked back at the skipper and that was the last time I ever saw him, and went out. I think I rolled out actually and it was, it was fine. I got I turned over three or four times in the air like a ball. It was quite a pleasant sensation dropping through the air. I was glad to be out of aeroplane which was burning. The flames were working away. You could tell [unclear] and of course we were with my life.
RA: And you were over where? What country?
DJ: I was, well, you know, I thought that I was over Holland. Just south of Eindhoven or something but actually we were on the borders of Belgium and Holland and by the time I got to the ground I was I was in Belgium. North Belgium. Not far from [unclear]
RA: Were the Germans still in occupation there?
DJ: Oh yeah. Oh yes. And at that time, 21st of June they were still held down at the bridgehead. They hadn’t broken out. From the 6th of June when they invaded I don’t, they didn’t break out until mid-July.
They were hammering away down there and further down in Belgium the situation was normal down there as far as the Germans were concerned. They’d, of course they had troops there. I don’t think they were too worried. They seemed to be holding the invasion back. That was there. Anyway, I got on the ground and the drill then was to walk at night and hide up during the day. So being the shortest I didn’t get very far that first night because I got in some woods. The following morning I found a farmhouse in the woods there so I laid down overnight and watched to see if anybody went to the farmhouse. Eventually, later on in the evening a farm labourers did turn up and anyway to cut a long story short I got in touch with the Resistance, the White Brigade because at the time there were two sorts of Resistance if you know what I mean. There was the White Brigade that were people who went out and sabotaged railways and blew up depots and things like that as against the Resistance people who were more or less the official [vibe] that were responsible [unclear] down the line to say I first of all came White Brigade. The difference was it was it was very sensible. They never told their plans to anybody else. When you think about it that it very sensible because everybody thinks, oh the Resistance and so forth they all hated the Germans and they would do anything for our boys on the ground. But this wasn’t so. There were people in Belgium and France who for money would shop anybody. You know they had, they had to be very careful. You couldn’t even tell your best friends what you were going to do. I mean husbands didn’t tell wives what they were doing because you might in many ways she may let slip, ‘Oh, my husband is hiding an airman at the moment.’ Something like that and the friend that she had told would shop her in an instant.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: Because the Germans were only too willing to pay up.
RA: Then you managed to get through.
DJ: Then eventually I was connected with the official Escape Line and was moved down to Liège. Normally the line would have taken me back to Brussels and on to Paris and down through the Pyrenees but because of the invasion the official lines were closed down. They reckoned that it wasn’t worth going on. Evaders like myself just had to wait until they were liberated But it didn’t seem to happen. Although, although there was the invasion it didn’t stop all the aircraft being shot down. Especially the Yanks were copping it during the day and people like myself at night so they got continuous load of parachutists coming down and they had no place to take them so it was very fraught.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: We were getting pockets of airmen and Resistance people altogether. But they did try and move us when it was possible. I moved about sixty or seventy miles out of Liège where in September, this was June when I went down, this was September when the Americans arrived. It was the first time I was pleased to see Americans.
RA: So what did you do in those four months? Were you [unclear] or were you dressed as a local according to [unclear] or —
DJ: We did all that.
RA: Ok.
DJ: It’s a long story but I wasn’t, I wasn’t dressed as, they found clothing for me. At one stage I was with a jeweller in his shop in town and he passed me off as his assistant. A relative that had come to stay with him and in this jewellers shop he used to repair watches. They didn’t have anything like petrol to clean watches. They used to have to take them all to pieces and I used to [laughs] these German soldiers would come into the shop and bring their watches to be repaired and I used to sit in the corner with my eye glass things and gazing earnestly. I didn’t know what I was looking at but I must have looked the part because nobody said anything. Anyway, I met one of the people so I was moved by train and tram by various individuals to Liege. So then I hitched a lift back to Paris on what they called the [unclear] which was the petrol connection lorries between Normandy and the front line. When I got back to Paris I was taken to, to the Hotel Maurice which had been allocated to the Air Force and they kitted me out with an American type uniform and shipped us back to England on the official Dakota that used to carry the King’s messenger back from Paris to Hendon. I got back to Hendon on the 17th of September 1944 just in time to watch the people go over to Arnhem. Yes. so I got back to do. Then they sent me for six weeks survivor’s leave which I didn’t need because I’d been fairly well fed in Belgium. That had arranged that. That was the official thing.
RA: You could go home [unclear]
DJ: Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. I was lucky again because had I said at that time at Marylebone because I lived in Pinner at that time the railway connection was very good then. So I arrived back on a Saturday night and I said, ‘I live not far away.’ They debriefed me. Took a note of what had happened and said, ‘Well, you stay here tonight and go to the tomorrow.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll get back again. [unclear] twenty minutes, half an hour on the Tube.’ So they said ok. So I went home. Very emotional too. I got back and my mother was pleased. Anyway, I went back the next day and they sent me off on this official leave. Eventually I had to report to Air Ministry. When I got to Air Ministry they said, ‘Well, what would you like to do?’ I said, ‘Well, that’s a funny question.’ I said, ‘Well, having got back to this country. I’d like to go back to the squadron.’ ‘That’s a problem.’ According to the rule book you weren’t allowed to go back to the squadron straightaway. You had to have an interval of a few months because in the past they had trouble with people going back on ops and then telling. Telling others that you know if you go to a certain town they’ll help you and you’ll get away. This, this had caused problems. In fact, some of the ones who had talked like that their helpers had been rounded up and shot. So the official rule book was that you kind of had to have an interval before you went back on ops. Of course, the fact that the invasion had gone past the area where you know [unclear] that was not part of the rules. Anyway, so they said, ‘Well, what we’ll do is we’ll send you to an OTU and you can crew up again.’ Then of course by the time we’d been right the way through from OTU through to the squadron again there had been sufficient time that would have lapsed because they didn’t know that the end of the war was about six months away at that time. So I waited for a posting and eventually in about the middle of October of ’44 I was posted to Abingdon which was an OTU which meant that eventually when I did get back on ops I’d be on Halifaxes in Yorkshire. Well, that didn’t please me. As 5 Group on Lancasters aircrew personnel to be put on to Halifaxes was an insult. So I had to do a bit of manoeuvring and I got on to the adjutant and said I’d like a posting back to 5 Group. They all knew this was my official first day here and I had to —
RA: What rank were you?
DJ: At that time I was a flying officer and once again it says there I got on to the adjutant and he said, ‘Well, you won’t be able to do it.’ So I found out Abingdon was a very big place you know. It was the centre of three or four satellite OTUs and the air vice marshal in charge of them was [unclear]. So I collared him in the Mess at lunchtime [unclear] why was this lowly flying officer going on to this vice marshal with all these things down his arm and whatnot you know [laughs] people can’t. Anyway, I spoke to him, took a cup of coffee to him and sat down with him and poured my heart out about this and luckily for me he was ex-5 Group. He’d been an air vice marshal in 5 Group and he said, ‘I can’t promise anything but I’ll see what I can do.’ Well, he must have been able to pull a few strings because the next day the wing commander, the adjutant called me in and said, ‘You’ve got to go before the wing commander.’ The wing commander said, ‘I understand you want to move to 5 Group.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We’ll sort it out.’ In a couple of days I’d been posted out again back to 5 Group. But not back to my original squadron, 57 but to 9 and that’s at Bardney which they sent me on leave over Christmas and I reported to Bardney on the 1st of January 1945.
RA: And so how did you, how did you arrive at Bardney then?
DJ: Well, when I’d been on 57 I had an old car. One of the crew brought it back and managed to put it around the back and left it of course. We left that at the dispersal because it was the policy of aircrews in those days to let the ground crew service their vehicle and use it while they were off flying. So that meant that car of course had been disposed of. Another one had been accruing while I was walking about I bought another old banger for myself. I had a new engine put in it and arrived at Bardney in style. I arrived there on the 1st of January ‘45 as I say in the morning. There was [laughs] aircraft spewed all over the place. I mean one in the dyke, one in the ditch just up the road at the approach to the airfield. Apparently it had crashed there.
RA: Which was a New Years Day.
DJ: New Year’s Day.
RA: 1945 when, when you had —
DJ: That’s right.
RA: We lost two. The first one lost was Harry Denton.
DJ: Yes.
RA: And his, and his crew. They just managed to get back.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: The next one I think was [unclear] [Newton’s?] crew.
DJ: Yes.
RA: The next one was [Ian Buckley’s] crew.
DJ: Yes.
RA: With [Dennis Nolan]
DJ: Yes.
RA: And they went straight into the woods in the, in the [unclear] Over the target we lost another two. [unclear] got shot down [unclear] George Thompson wireless operator and crew finally got their posthumous VC for it and I think the other one I think it was [unclear] crew. I’m not sure now. They got shot down over the target and I did manage after quite a few years to find the mid upper gunner of that one [unclear]
DJ: Yes.
RA: And you know that’s quite a nice little story. The one that you saw there was just the bomb aimer. A Canadian called [unclear]
DJ: Yes.
RA: He survived it and although we can’t find anymore now so we assume he must have passed on but quite a few years ago [unclear] by a local farmer and this guy came back and asked if he could go in the field and see where his aircraft.
DJ: Crashed.
RA: Crashed it appears it was [unclear] so that about 8 o’clock in the morning.
DJ: Oh right.
RA: So you would come down and presumably where the aircraft were left —
DJ: [unclear] deserted as far as I could see.
RA: It must have been obviously quite a bit afterward. Did you, where did you report to? Did you go to the Guard Room on the actual airfield or did you go around to where the Officer’s Mess was?
DJ: I would have gone around to the Officer’s Mess I should think first of all.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: I had to report and check in.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: But —
RA: And then you would be allocated a [unclear]
DJ: Well, I was, I was yes I spoke to various people including the bombing leader and of course Wing Commander Bazin.
RA: Do you remember who the bombing leader was at that time?
DJ: Yes. A man called Bill Campbell.
RA: Bill Campbell.
DJ: Bill Campbell. Yeah. Every bit an Aussie. His story appeared in one of those Mel Rolfe books where he’s done a series called, one of them was, “To Hell and Back.” About bomber crews and his story, [unclear] Campbell they called him. On one of these he got shot up badly and came back.
RA: Who did he fly with?
DJ: I don’t know. I think he flew with Bazin [unclear] you know weren’t they?
RA: Yeah.
DJ: [unclear]
RA: Was there a leader, a bombing leader for A flight and B Flight or was there just one for the squadron?
DJ: Just one for the squadron.
RA: Right. Yeah. Ok
DJ: Anyway, so I’d been allocated to Doug Tweddle’s crew because their bomb aimer Jack Singer was a Canadian. He’d, they’d Doug finished or had nearly finished he’d done twenty eight. He’d nearly finished his first tour and Jack Singer was as a Canadian. When he’d done his thirty he was shipped back to Canada and so they needed, he didn’t want to go on I don’t think but that was the policy of the Canadians to do that anyway. Whatever. He was going to go back to Canada and they were looking for another bomb aimer. Probably that was why there was a vacancy in 9 Squadron to be filled while they set me up. I had to wait while Doug finished his two trips before I could join him. So I’m sitting in the Mess one day while it happened and along comes Bill Campbell and he says, ‘Are you alright Sport?’ A typical Aussie. I said, ‘Yeah. I’m fine. Yeah.’ And I thought what a nice man. He’s asking after my health. ‘Well —’ he said, he said, ‘We’ve got a problem. We’ve got a bomb aimer off sick.’ He said, but he said, ‘Flying Officer Mackintosh is looking for a bomb aimer. Would you like to do a trip with Mac?’ So I thought well, I’m only sitting about here aren’t I? I couldn’t very well refuse [laughs] So I flew with Mackintosh. Of course, they didn’t know who I was. They didn’t know where I’d been or what I’d done and the attitude of aircrews at that time was they couldn’t care less what everybody else had done. You know, they were there and they wouldn’t have been there unless they were useful. So they took me up on practice flights.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: And I did some practice bombing with Mac and he was quite happy. So I did a couple of trips with Mackintosh while I was waiting for Tweddle to finish his crew.
RA: Were you on, were you on Tallboys at that time?
DJ: Yes.
RA: So did you do any special training then for the Tallboy before you actually went bombing from the OTU [unclear]
DJ: Oh no. There was no special training. I mean the equipment for dropping the Tallboy was exactly the same as the equipment for dropping five hundred pounders. I mean you had to say the bombing you know equipment and the only difference was for me anyway was it was all daylight trips which had its advantages in that you could see the target much better and you had a good [unclear] looking at it. The disadvantage was that at night on bombing raids flak appeared as little twinkles in the sky, you know. Like, “Twinkle twinkle little star.” But in the day they came up as dirty big black puffs.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: And you know —
RA: A bit more scary I think.
DJ: They were because you had to fly, you knew you had to fly through them. I mean the twinkling stars in the distance might stop by the time you got to them although often they didn’t [laughs] but I mean during the day you’ve for these these big puffs and you’ve got to go through them and you knew that somewhere in there they were a bit lethal. So that was the difference. But I personally preferred the daylight because you could see from my point of view as a bomb aimer you could see the target so much better and we were bombing at twelve thousand feet with a Tallboy. Probably we would have been lower than that but they had to have that distance, height off the ground because of the, A — the penetration of the Tallboy bomb hitting the target and also the safety height for the explosion.
RA: Yeah. So, we’re just going to go on to the various bombsights.
DJ: Yes.
RA: 9 always used the Mark 14.
DJ: That’s right.
RA: A lot of people realise that in actual fact when they [unclear] and they went on to special operations with the Tallboy the actual Mark 14 had been modified so it wasn’t exactly the same as what the other aircraft using the Mark 14. 617 obviously had SABS.
DJ: They did.
RA: And I tend to talk to some people who thought SABS was the bees knees.
DJ: 617 would say that.
RA: Yeah. But then the way I’ve interviewed people and seen if the Mark 14 modified that 9 had in some cases in the right hands were just as, as accurate or even in some cases more accurate than SABS. Did you find that the same?
DJ: Oh yes. I would [unclear] the fact that I did a Mark 14 course actually before I got on to [unclear] I don’t know why but I was selected along with a couple of other chaps to go to Manby and do a Mark 14 course which was run by a chap called Squadron Leader Richardson. He eventually became a bombing leader on 617 but he was a wizard for bombing. Bombs and [unclear] and all the rest of it. He had a wonderful knowledge and it was a worthwhile course I’ll say again. They said at the time the idea is you will have a knowledge of the Mark 14 and when you get on to your squadron you’ll be able to pass that knowledge on to the rest of the crews on the squadron but when I got to 57 and started there they’d all had the Mark 14. I found they didn’t have to have any knowledge passed on because they’d done it already. But —
RA: Did you ever have a go on SABS?
DJ: No. No, I didn’t.
RA: Again, I understand that with SABS you have to actually fly straight and level for so long but also if it was an obscured target you couldn’t actually bomb it. Whereas with a Mark 14 by wind finding you could transmit a target forward and still bomb through to an obscured target. Was that right? Can you explain the [unclear]
DJ: I can’t see as that would work like that. The Mark 14 you would still need to have a visual target to bomb. You could do a timed release for the part you could see say from a point three hundred yards from the target and then allow a time lapse before you bombed it. In fact, at one period of the war they were doing that.
RA: Could you do that with SABS?
DJ: I don’t know. I really don’t know.
RA: Were you, you were quite happy with the results of the Mark 14.
DJ: Yeah. Quite happy. We got good results with the Mark 14. I think as good as anything 617 ever did.
RA: 9 Squadron never ever had H2S.
DJ: H2S. No.
RA: Why was that?
DJ: Well, first of all I mean I don’t know what the policy was earlier in the war. Whether they had just given it to some squadrons with [pause] H2S and they were going to equip all the rest of them eventually but I think that of course they did, they used 9 Squadron for the Tallboys and that did away with the H2S at Bardney. They couldn’t get the extra [unclear] and the bomb so that’s why it wasn’t there. I don’t know the exact you know period in the war that they started with Tallboys.
RA: August. August 1944.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: 617 Squadron started June or July. June I think it was and then 9 became a special, a special squadron. In, in at the end of August the first one came to Bardney. The first [unclear] and then that started practicing.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: It was at that time when the policy changed. Very special squadrons they were expected, crews were expected to carry on and do a second tour of fifty.
DJ: That’s right.
RA: Continue. A bit like 97 Squadron.
DJ: Yeah. That’s right.
RA: So, you know that’s what he came in. Of course now obviously we know the reason why because August the first operation with Tallboys was straight on to Russia for the first attack on the Tirpitz.
DJ: Yes.
RA: And at that time two of the squadrons were ordered by 189 and 206 or 226 or something they were only there for a week. They thought they would do [unclear] So we’ve got you then on, let me just have a look to check how this —
DJ: Change the tape over.
[recording paused]
RA: Yeah. So we’ve now got you doing two trips with Mackintosh.
DJ: Mackintosh. That’s right.
RA: Now, he’s up in Scotland isn’t he? Mackintosh. I’ve had, I’ve had a letter from someone or a phone call. I’m sure it was a Mackintosh. A pilot. I’m sure. I’ll have to, I’ll have to dig the paperwork out now.
DJ: Please do because if he’s, if he’s around I’d love to contact him because Mac, I mean he was a, he was a good pilot. Very good. I mean they all were really.
RA: That’s right. It was either Mackintosh or MacDonald.
DJ: Oh, I think it’s probably MacDonald because I think that Macintosh had died. But I mean I met Mac after the war and I think he was flying with British Airways.
RA: I’ll look in the records.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: So I think —
DJ: I did my three trips with Macintosh. Then in the meanwhile Tweddle finished his thirty and then I started flying with Doug Tweddle and we did about eight ops before the end of the war really as of May ’45. And then as you know the squadron split up. The older hands went to 50 Squadron at Sturgate and —
RA: The end of the war. May time.
DJ: Yeah. The others went on to Tiger Force. They were equipped with, well they didn’t get Lincolns until later did they? but they were going off to Japan.
RA: So most of them then went to, the older hands went to —
DJ: Yeah.
RA: Split up at that time and went to 50 Squadron.
DJ: That’s right. Yeah.
RA: And just carried on with 50 Squadron.
DJ: We carried on with 50 Squadron.
RA: You went there did you?
DJ: I went there with Tweddle.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: We went to 50 Squadron at Sturgate and we flew backwards and forwards. We did prisoners of war back from Brussels. Then we did flights backwards and forwards to Italy bringing troops back from demob leave. They were very interesting. In those days it wasn’t like it is today. You know, EasyJet and all that. We went [laughs] we went out to Naples, Pomigliano which was in the shadow of Vesuvius. We went there one day, stayed a day and then came back on the third day with a load of troops home. We did a series of those but interestingly at the end of the day Naples we used to go to the old [unclear] and wander about there. It was nice and warm. We stayed in Capri and Sorrento. As I put in the book we used to see the beauties of Sorrento but they wouldn’t take any notice of us. They used to lie on the beach there all decked out. But we weren’t there long enough so we used to fly backwards and forwards like that. One interesting thing about that was, and I put it in the book was that [unclear] there were a number of crews down there and of course we got to see them in the Mess there you know one thing or another. One time we were in there and we went to a hotel nearby to have a drink and one of these crews were chatting with an Army officer in the corner. We didn’t take a lot of notice of it. They seemed to be friendly. They were all drinking together. And lo and behold the next day when we were due to fly back to this country this Army officer appears in a blue RAF uniform. Part of this crew that were going back. He was, working a [flanker]. The only thing that worried me about that was of course that when we flew back again we would come home back to this country and probably be a week, a fortnight or three weeks before we were sent on another trip back to his base. So this chap who came back would either have to find his own way back, I mean, I don’t suppose he had official leave because he was working this flanker so he would either have to find his own way back or wait until his crew that brought him back took him back in the same disguise for the [unclear] Yeah. We did these trips several times backwards and forwards and flying over the Alps, across the Mediterranean. And eventually 50 Squadron were posted back from Sturgate to Waddington. At Waddington we were there for, well until we were all demobbed and gradually you know depending on how long we’d been in the Forces we were demobbed and I came out in the middle of 1945.
RA: 50 Squadron, they were still on Lancs were they?
DJ: They were still, yes. They hadn’t converted but they were converting to Lincolns.
RA: Did you, did you take your own aircraft with you then? Or just go on Sturgate and use their own aircraft?
DJ: We went up to yeah we used their aircraft. You know, we were back to Lancasters and H2S there.
RA: I’m just going to change this tape over and then if we can talk about Bardney and, you know the social side of it.
[recording paused]
RA: Just going back to Bardney. You were with Douggie.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: Douggie and, Singer had gone. Had gone home. Do you remember if any, you were in WS-Y.
DJ: That’s right.
RA: That was Y-Younger.
DJ: Yes.
RA: Do you remember where your dispersal was?
DJ: [pause] I couldn’t tell you that now.
RA: At one time there was Y. Certainly during the war there was a Y just behind the second hangar. Near the bomb dump end. You were in B flight weren’t you?
DJ: That’s right. Yeah. It could well have been.
RA: You can’t remember.
DJ: I couldn’t tell you.
RA: Do you remember any of your ground crew at all?
DJ: No. I’ve got a picture of them in there. You could probably tell me who the names of them are.
RA: Well, unfortunately in the, in the records no, no ground crews are mentioned which is a shame really and I try and interview or ask ground crew to be interviewed but they don’t seem to know what that means. In the Association the majority of people tend to be aircrew.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: There are a few, you know people and wherever possible I do try. And I try try, you know and collect the information. But you were —
DJ: Can I just interrupt there a minute?
RA: Yeah.
DJ: I’m still in touch with [Frank Hawkins] Whether he would know any of them.
RA: Yeah. He was armourer wasn’t he?
DJ: He was armourer. Yeah.
RA: We’ll see on that.
DJ: They were all very friendly. I do know that.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: You know.
RA: So when you were billeted can you remember where? Presumably you were on the concrete road were you? Past the Officer’s Mess and the Sergeant’s Mess. You were on that side.
DJ: No. I was on the other side. At this time it’s difficult to remember how far it was. It seemed a very long walk at the time.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: It was about two or three hundred yards —
RA: Past the Officer’s Mess.
DJ: Past, yeah going down the road.
RA: Yeah and what about —
DJ: Towards Timbuktu [laughs].
RA: Yeah.
DJ: On the left.
RA: Yeah. Right. On the side of the woods.
DJ: Yeah. Just the first house in.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: With the official green patch by the door [unclear] It probably still does.
RA: Oh right.
DJ: That was the first one up there. We had characters in the huts. Real characters. Benny Taylor —
RA: What was, what was he?
DJ: He was a pilot. Benny Taylor. Who was the other pilot? I think we had [unclear] in there and [pause] another bloke who used to drink a lot.
RA: Right [laughs]
DJ: But Doug, Douggie Tweddle could out-talk all of them.
RA: Was he in your billet?
DJ: Yes. He was in the billet and then there was other crews [unclear] Shields who was our navigator. Keith Mallinson. We were all in that billet.
RA: So were you all officers in there?
DJ: We were all, yeah. We were officers. Yeah.
RA: Right.
DJ: We used to, not so much with Doug Tweddle but we also had a new flight engineer come more or less at the same time as [unclear] because the flight engineer that Doug Tweddle had wanted to finish at the end of the thirty trips. He was, he was for aircrew he was getting on a bit in those days. I mean he must have been at least thirty [laughs]. Probably more. Old Charlie. So he’d opted out at thirty and we had a first tour expired chap come in called Jimmy Rowe. He was in the billet too. So there was all Doug Tweddle’s crew you know who were officers were in the same billet.
RA: How many were you? Was there six or eight of you?
DJ: There must have been at least eight I should think. Yeah.
RA: It was the usual old stove in the middle was it?
DJ: Oh yes. It let off smoke. Yeah. Yeah. It was January ’45. It wasn’t long but the stove was and the water used to pour down the walls with condensation.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: Beautiful [laughs] Very good for you.
RA: So were you issued with a push bike then or did you just take one as and when you wanted one or was that just [unclear]
DJ: No. I had one bicycle there and of course we had the car.
RA: Could you park the car there?
DJ: Yeah. Oh yeah. We could park the car outside the hut.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: But we used to walk. We didn’t used to use the car to go to go to the Mess or anything like that. We used to leave it outside.
RA: So you would get up in the morning and then you would mosey off down for breakfast down in the Officers Mess.
DJ: That’s right. Yeah.
RA: Then you would obviously look at the board. Would the board there, would it have the Battle Order on it and go and see whether you —
DJ: You’d go, you’d go down to the flights and see what was going on.
RA: And that was over on the airfield.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: Yeah. When did you first know? Wasn’t there a Battle Order on the Officer’s Mess board to see whether you were on?
DJ: I don’t think so. I can’t remember that. I don’t think so. I mean for security I don’t think they would put it up at the Mess. It would be down on the flights certainly.
RA: Yeah. So you went down after you’d had your breakfast. What was the Officer’s Mess. Was it again a tin, a tin hut?
DJ: No, I think it was more, it was a hut but I don’t think it was the old Nissen where the crews had their breakfast. It was the other type of hut they had which was a long hut with a sloping roof. More the conventional type of hut.
RA: And then you’d got the Sergeant’s Mess near it and the NAAFI.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: Did you ever go to the NAAFI for the dances or whatnot?
DJ: No. No. We [pause] thinking back then again with the car we used to shoot off all over the place. We didn’t go to the NAAFI itself.
RA: So you were going further afield than Bardney then.
DJ: Oh yes.
RA: Where did you go for —
DJ: If we’d got, if we’d got any time off we used to go down to [unclear] Either to to Lincoln or if it was a fairly long stand down we would go into Nottingham. I was [unclear] so we used to go down to Boston by car. But I used to nip down to [unclear] driving cars.
RA: So you were held on quite a bit.
DJ: Oh yes. Yes.
RA: In some cases with some the only time they saw the pilot was in the briefing room.
DJ: Oh no. We were very close as a crew. We got on well.
RA: Yeah. And you got out to Bardney for a drink in the local.
DJ: Well, we used to go down to the Jolly Sailor, yes.
RA: Because that was a drinker’s pub wasn’t it?
DJ: Well, I should think so. Yes. Benny Taylor and Ray Harris used to go into Lincoln quite a bit. They enjoyed themselves. We used to go to the Jolly Sailor but not too often because I was so used to going further afield. But I always remember the Jolly Sailor being quite a noisy affair. It used to get pretty hilarious. At one point [unclear] at the back there behind the bar there was the daughters of the [unclear] and I can’t remember his name. You probably can.
RA: Yeah. But I can’t remember. I can’t think off-hand.
DJ: And his wife.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: I believe, I believe he had a daughter. But he was a very social pilot so [pause] but we weren’t, we weren’t really a drinking crew. Doug Tweddle used to go into the Mess. As I say he used to like to get in the Mess with a pint of beer in a corner and hold forth about various things but he would leave us because we formed a Bridge School. There was myself, [Cas Shield] the navigator, Jimmy Rowe, the flight engineer. Keith Mallinson the mid-upper, sorry the rear gunner and we used to play Bridge. We weren’t very good at it but the time passed. We had many a session then so, but it wasn’t Doug Tweddle’s game so there you go.
RA: So, sort of the [pause] you wouldn’t obviously if you were going on an operation you went obviously into briefing.
DJ: Yes.
RA: Forget all that and you’d go and get in your flying gear [unclear] if you were going on an operation. Go in to briefing.
DJ: Yes.
RA: You did all that and then go to get into your flying gear [unclear] you said you did, say about eight.
DJ: Yes.
RA: About eight trips.
DJ: Yes.
RA: What kind of trips did you mostly do?
DJ: The most, the most [unclear] I’ll tell you that one. Before, before we did that we used to have these wind finding efforts on every trip. Crews were allocated to fly certain courses so that the wind could be assessed and passed back to the rest of the squadron. So to be more accurate this wind finding used to be done more or less in the target area. Correcting all the time the wind speed in the same rough area so when they got an accurate wind that would be fed into the bombing sight which on the Mark 14 was like a modern computer. Stuff was fed into it and it assembled the information and passed it through to the bomber squadrons.
RA: Was ABS on that as well?
DJ: Oh yes.
RA: [unclear]
DJ: Yeah.
RA: So, yeah. So did you do that?
DJ: Yes. We did that once or twice. We did this wind finding. It could be a bit hairy really that experience because you had to leave the rest of the formation and go off in a different course heading. The idea was to get different course headings and then come back on another one that would bring you back to the squadron. They would assess the wind speeds and directions from the different angles you see to get the actual wind [unclear. We did that once or twice. But the best trip that I did was, turned out to be our last because the end of the war came but we did a trip to [unclear]. We were doing mainly viaducts, bridges, railways, rail tracks, things like that.
RA: Yeah. And were you in a single squadron at that time?
DJ: Well, yes. Well, we used —
RA: 617.
DJ: We did single, single trips and occasionally we flew with 617 and we did, we went to Bielefeld with 617 when they dropped the Grand Slam for the first time. That was the twenty two thousand pounder one. You have that picture, the epic one of the Grand Slam dropping [unclear]. Well, we were on that trip. We watched it go down. You know, we’d already [unclear] Viaduct and all the rest of it and of course they had another Lancaster there that was the Air Photography Unit. There was a special name for it.
RA: Photography and Film Unit.
DJ: That’s Right. Photography and Film Unit and they filmed this and they said, ‘Well, we would like to take some other shots of it so we’ll go around again.’ Well, I mean you know it was suicide sticking about over a target being shot at and going around again just to take a few shots of the blooming aircraft that had we’d already dropped the bomb, you know. So, we thought —
RA: Were you escorting the 617 on that raid then or —
DJ: We were all part of the same —
RA: 617 has got Tallboys as well or was it —
DJ: Yes.
RA: Because in some cases I see in the records where 9 would go but they would escort the Grand Slam aircraft because they had no ammunition or they just had, I don’t think they even had any [unclear] did they? They were usually escorted by [unclear] and I see where 9 did that on one or two occasion.
DJ: Well, I can’t say answering for myself that 617 had any Tallboy crews on that Bielefeld raid.
RA: Right. So did they —
DJ: Apart from us.
RA: So did this big bomb then on [unclear] 617 did it hit the target on that day?
DJ: Well, I assume it did because the target was pictured as being destroyed.
RA: Or was that your bombs that landed beforehand or not?
DJ: Well, I wouldn’t like, I wouldn’t like to hazard a guess.
RA: I don’t know of any squadron that would say and you describing it was just for the cameras [laughs] you know.
DJ: You’re probably right but I can’t, I can’t really tell you. As I say we had the worst part about it was having to go around again. That was, that was a criminal offence in the eyes of most crews.
RA: So, so when you’d done it. So you found, you said earlier you found it easier in the daytime.
DJ: Yes.
RA: Were you ever attacked or did you ever see because obviously towards the end of the ‘44 and certainly ’45 the Germans were experimenting with the jet fighters.
DJ: That’s right.
RA: Did you ever come across one? Did you ever see one?
DJ: Oh yes. I was just, you asked me which one was the one I remember, the trip I remember was as I say was the last one to [unclear] but Tweddle had been selected to lead the squadron on that occasion.
RA: What was the target?
DJ: The target was a railway bridge. Incidentally I don’t know if you’ve heard of this but these targets, bridges, viaducts and whatnot were selected for us by a soldier, an Army officer who was attached to Bomber Command Headquarters. But he selected the targets based on the information that was passed to him from the troops on the ground. He assessed. He got all the information from them about what they wanted to bomb and then he told us in the RAF which ones they wanted to do. In fact, I can remember who it was but I can’t remember his name but he was written a book called, “A soldier in Bomber Command.”
RA: Well, I’ll have to have a look at that because there was a time when an Army officer went to a bombing raid in [unclear]
DJ: Yeah.
RA: And he said, ‘Oh, let’s go down and have another look.’ What people are saying it happened there had been some reports that there were these lights or things coming towards the aircraft and they were going in different directions.
DJ: Oh right. [unclear]
RA: Yeah. And this guy said, ‘Can we go lower?’ To the skipper and the skipper said, ‘Yeah. Straight down.’ And all the crew are thinking, ‘Bloody hell,’ you know.
DJ: Yeah.
RA: ‘This is suicide. The skipper never asked us. You know. He just went straight down.’ That was quite [pause] I didn’t realise. So you went on [unclear] you tended to [unclear] did you?
DJ: We went on this [unclear] thing and the [unclear] aircraft on this attack. 23rd of March. I remember distinctly the 23rd of March ‘45 and it was a perfect day. You only get one day like it in life. It was still. Perfect blue sky. We did this wind finding thing when we got near the target and the amazing part was it came back as no wind at all. Now for a bomb aimer that was wonderful because I mean the wind speed and direction had a big effect on even Tallboy. So with no, no wind there was really not much correction needed on the bomb sight although automatically. But I mean it could make a difference to when the bomb fell but without that distraction it made the bomb even more accurate. So anyway we got on to the target. We lined up and as the difference between us and the American Air Force was that with us each individual aircraft selected the target themselves and bombed it. With the American Air Force the lead aircraft dropped the bomb. Then everybody else followed suit. As soon as they saw the first one drop everybody dropped, you know. So if the first one got it wrong which often happened then everybody else got it wrong didn’t they? On this particular day we bombed the target. So, this bridge. We just dropped our bomb and there was this blooming great bang outside the aircraft and the flight engineer who was incidentally Bazin’s flight engineer he must have been the engineering leader I should think he thought we were being attacked by fighters. He falls flat on the floor, he throws the throttles right open for Tweddle thinking we were being attacked by fighters so of course the engines start rolling like mad. We just heard this blooming great crash from the ack ack outside the aircraft and actually what had happened was that one of these 262 jets had come up behind the formation, had got higher above it, dived right the way through aiming at our formation, leaving the Mustang/Spitfire escort nowhere and aimed at the last aircraft in our formation. He saw him coming, started to do a corkscrew and the canon shell from the ME262 damaged a tailfin but no more than that because he’d gone through. All he could do was dive down through the formation, loose off a shot and disappear out of sight. That’s what he had done. But the ack ack had split our Perspex over the, over Tweddle’s head and found, we also found that the hydraulics had been damaged and Tweddle than put the wheels down to see whether the hydraulics were working and of course they weren’t working so he couldn’t get the wheels up. So we had to fly [laughs] fly back to the England with the wheels down and at the same time we were leaving a nice vapour trail behind us because the flak had penetrated the wing and damaged the petrol tanks which were self-sealing to a point so the petrol was pouring out the back. One of the aircraft behind us said, you know, ‘You’re on fire.’ Well, we weren’t we were just pouring petrol vapour through the air. So, we came back you know at a slower speed because with the wheels down we couldn’t fly at the normal speed and we came back to this country and eventually we landed and they got the wheels locked down and emergency [unclear] and we landed safely. [unclear] to the front of the aircraft. The petrol was pouring out of the wings and there was a hole through the Perspex from the [unclear] bombsight. I’d had my head down on the right-hand side of the side looking down and the hole was through the Perspex on the left-hand side.
RA: That [nearly] got you then.
DJ: So that was a bonus. It nearly was my last one.
RA: I bet that pint in the bar tasted good that night didn’t it?
DJ: Yes [laughs] Yes, I began to think this was not the life I was meant to lead. But that happened. That happened 23rd of March and we went on leave after that and of course the squadron went on to Berchtesgaden for the last trip of the war but we were on leave for that.
RA: Oh right. So you didn’t.
DJ: You know, obviously it all finished after that.
RA: By the time you were there 189 had come back. Do you ever remember them doing [unclear]
DJ: I don’t remember honestly but we had, we used to have new crews come in but on 9 Squadron some of the 189 of course not only were we doing these special trips they were going off and doing the Dresdens of this world. Breslau. That kind of thing. I mean you often hear a lot about Dresden but it was just another trip as far as they were concerned. They were hours to get there and back again. But they were coming and going and we were a different, different kettle of fish.
RA: Yeah. So, what was the CO? Did you ever see the CO there?
DJ: What? Bazin?
RA: Yeah. Was he a decent —
DJ: Oh yeah. Obviously, he used to hold forth in the Mess. We used to see him off and he was quite [unclear]. I think some people found him rather remote. But as it happened after the war in ’45 I eventually moved to [Weybridge] in Surrey and Bazin lived just around the corner. So there I was. I didn’t get a chance to really go and see him before I think he died but I did hear that he wasn’t really much concerned with 9, when I say 9 Squadron, I mean Bomber Command. The love of his life was fighters.
RA: [unclear]
DJ: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think he had more affiliation with the squadrons that he was on in fighters than his other connection.
RA: So what sort of characters was there and [unclear]
DJ: Try. I’m trying to think of the name of that navigator. There was a navigator who was also Mess catering officer and he was a nice bloke. There was one chap who used to stagger out of the mess for [unclear] it was his kind of signature. I can’t remember his name, you know. Time goes by but I’m sure you’ve seen [unclear]
RA: No, I haven’t actually.
DJ: Have you not? Have you never seen that?
RA: No. I haven’t. Someone else, I got something attached but I’ve [unclear] about [unclear] being shot on the Bergen raid.
DJ: Yes. —
RA: And I don’t know, getting his gun out at Bergen [unclear]
DJ: [unclear] and there’s a thing about Ray Harris —
RA: Was it?
DJ: If you go on to RAF Harkness, I’d never heard of RAF Harkness but if you pop RAF into Google and get RAF Harkness you’ll find Ray Harris’ story in there.
RA: Oh right, because I crossed over to one the other week and I looked at [unclear] and it was at [unclear] my article in [unclear]. I got home I thought cheeky that is. I rolled over to the end it said information, I want to say information so and so and Roger Audis. I thought [unclear] and put it because I’d been in touch with the German fighter pilot.
DJ: Oh yes.
RA: [unclear] Who was doing the —
DJ: Yeah.
RA: The Tirpitz thing and he was on [unclear] and so, yeah I thought that was a bit [unclear]
DJ: No. I was waiting. I was waiting for Doug to finish. He came back from that one. I can remember seeing his face now all ruddy. He taxied up to dispersal, he threw his window back and looked down at me waiting on the dispersal and shouted, ‘They buggered off and left us.’ [laughs]
RA: So was you actually on your raids [unclear] was there a fighter escort then?
DJ: Oh yes. Every time. Yes. The comic part about that you could never see them. They were in touch with the leader which of course on that last trip I was telling you about as we were doing the trip as leader when that Messerschmitt came through the flight the intercom suddenly burst into life from these fighter pilots all shouting, you know. ‘Where is he? Where has he gone.’ [laughs] They’d come too late. But part of that not being around is you know they, they would come on and they would contact the squadron to say they were there but we couldn’t see them. They would be high up and behind us. They used to be able to see us. We were big enough. So they could see us. I don’t know why they wouldn’t adopt a protective attitude because [unclear] because we were being shot at and they didn’t want to be anywhere near us. They might cop it. So they used to be around. They used to tell us how many of them there were when we were being briefed and usually, on that for that last one we did there were nine Squadron aircraft. There were nine of us but there were forty five fighters.
RA: Would they have come from England or were they over the —
DJ: I think, I think some or most of them were based on the continent. Yeah. I think most of them were Mustangs in the end there because they were better [unclear] range than the Spitfires. But it was very comforting to know they were there but when the crunch came they couldn’t have got through the jet fighters. It was just as well you know they were short, the Germans were short of fuel and I’m sure that particular day that jet fighter he probably left us alone after he’d done his initial squirt because he hadn’t got the umph to come around again.
RA: So that was the only one you ever saw then?
DJ: That was the only one I ever saw. Yeah.
RA: And did you ever even when you were on like 57 were you ever attacked by night fighters?
DJ: Well, as I said earlier on 57 we didn’t see any fighters being shot down and yet that particular night was a bit rough on Bomber Command. I mean they lost a third. That’s a thirty three and a third percent of the attacking force that night. I mean, you know only a month or two earlier you had that raid on Nuremberg where they said you know we lost ninety seven aircraft in one night. But you see ninety seven aircraft of a thousand attacking is only ten percent roughly whereas on the night that we were shot down a third of the attacking force or thirty three and a third were shot down and most of those were due to fighters coming on the scene. They found the bomber stream early on and being the shortest there was still [unclear] there was low cloud at three thousand feet so the aircraft was silhouetted against the cloud.
[recording paused – phone ringing]
DJ: Yes. The question was had I been attacked by fighters when I was on 57. That’s another annoying thing really is that you often, you do read nearly all the time about aircraft being attacked by fighters or damaged by flak and bits shot off here and shot off there and [unclear] all this kind of thing and they brought it back. You hear stories of coming back on a wing and prayer. But we hadn’t. We’d didn’t have anything. We’d done seventeen trips. We’d seen plenty. We’d been shot at but no damage at all. We lost several aircraft from 57 Squadron on the raids that we were on but we hadn’t seen anybody attack us and yet on the one time there was one great big bang and that was the end of us. So, we hadn’t seen any fighters. [unclear]
RA: [unclear] Did you keep in touch with your old crew? You said they all survived except for the pilot. Were they taken as POWs?
DJ: Four of them were caught. I don’t know if there is something in there about what happened to them. Two of us got away. The flight engineer, [unclear] he managed to evade capture. He went a different route. He went to Brussels whereas I went south to Liege. He went to Brussels but he was, he was picked up by the Resistance very quickly. I think he more or less walked into the back garden of a Resistance worker. So he was lucky that way and he got back to England the day before I did. But I wanted him to come to 9 Squadron with me but you know as I say [unclear] flight engineer packed in at the end of his thirty trips. But this flight engineer of ours who got back to this country he went down, he was posted down to St Athans and he asked a warrant officer down there you know what about going back to another Squadron. Rejoining. The warrant officer [laughs] told him not to be a bf. ‘You’re staying where you are. Out of it.’ So he declined. It was a pity but he was quite a nice chap. He would have been useful. As things worked out whether he would have survived the war.
RA: Yeah. So did you keep in touch with him after the war?
DJ: Oh yes. Yes. Well, those in the prison camp they came back looking for me after the war when they were released. They went to my home to ask because they didn’t know what had happened to me to see if there was anything about me and of course my mother saw them and told them I was with 9 Squadron which I think they were amazed by.
RA: So did you know they had been POWs? Had that—
DJ: Yes.
RA: Had the information come through by then?
DJ: It had indeed. My mother was quite persistent. When I was missing in the June from then on she had been harassing the Red Cross about, you know trying to find out what had happened to me. They sent her a letter to say that the Germans had notified that these are the members of the crew, there was four people were accounted for and were prisoners. Unaccounted for was myself and the flight engineer and the pilot. Of course the pilot was killed and they didn’t connect him with our particular crew obviously but she had the information. But what about me? You see so she didn’t know where I was.
RA: Until you got back.
DJ: Until I got back. And in fact, I got home before the official telegram from the War Office saying I was back.
RA: So the Underground they didn’t put out messages out saying that [unclear]
DJ: Well, yes. They did in fact. The White Brigade they were in contact with London. [unclear] with the [SOE] agent wondering about. I met him actually because they, the White Brigade assistant bloke who was a wonderful man he was in touch with this wireless operator and he checked me out by getting this wireless operator, he interviewed me and his method of interviewing was to ask me about films and things that I’d seen in London recently to check that I wasn’t somebody who had infiltrated the system in an RAF uniform because the Germans did that occasionally. So I spoke to this chap and the Resistance leader, a chap called [unclear] in our language but [unclear] in theirs said that he’d checked. That they had got him to contact London and check that I was who I said I was. So he knew who I was but I don’t think anyone in the War Office in London would have asked him for the Air Ministry. Security again you know.
RA: Yeah. Have you ever been out to see your pilot’s grave?
DJ: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been out there to see the grave. Other members of the crew had been out there. He was, he’s buried at a church in a place called Asch. It’s A S C H in French and A S in Flemish. Because of course [unclear] over there you’ve got your Flemish [unclear] as they call them in the north of Belgium and you’ve got the French speaking to the south. [unclear] you know it’s like the Welsh.
RA: [unclear]
DJ: They don’t like each other and they don’t tend to speak about each other but anyway the Belgians on the whole were very good to us.
RA: That’s very good. So after the war. What did you do after the war?
DJ: Well, after the war I worked at British European Airways as they called themselves in those days. That’s the equivalent to you had BOAC which was the long-range stuff and BA that did the continental things, you know. They had the Dakotas. I was with them for a few years and then the housing situation was —
RA: What did you do? What were you doing with the —
DJ: Oh, with BEA? I was working on what was called the ship’s papers. Those sheets of passengers and weights. They used to calculate the weight of the aircraft and allowed for the petrol and the passengers and the loading and then you made out a sheet for the pilot to show him what his load was. What the petrol load was. They call them, they call them dispatchers nowadays.
RA: I bet that was boring after flying on your belly and dropping a Tallboy.
DJ: Yeah. It was it was [unclear] you know. It was. Anyway, I was in that for a couple of days but the thing in those days I got married to a girl that I’d met in Boston earlier in the war. the housing situation was hopeless down in London because there were all the repairs to do and they weren’t doing anything new much [unclear] at that time. We had a chronic housing shortage so I moved up to Lincolnshire and moved to Skegness and I lived in Skegness for twelve years.
RA: What period was that?
DJ: That would have been from about 1948 to 1960.
RA: [unclear] We used to go to Skeggy for our holidays. We used to stay with Mrs Childs which was, do you know where the old [unclear] station used to be?
DJ: Yeah.
RA: Yeah. It was the big house next door to that.
DJ: [unclear] still there.
RA: [unclear] we used to go and there used to be some other people in the village they went one week and then then we would go the next week in the same [unclear] and it was cheaper if you took your own bed linen. Mrs Childs. That was her name.
DJ: Oh yes.
RA: We used to come out at night —
DJ: Was it at the actual —
RA: DJ: No, the back part. The front, the door where you went in was just around the corner. The bus station was around there wasn’t it?
DJ: It was.
RA: And it was the door was around on that side. This was the back part. You would go out in the garden.
DJ: Yes.
RA: You could come out the back door, walk up, come out just straight off the side of the old lifeboat station.
DJ: Oh yeah.
RA: And we used to walk, I was only, I have pictures of me, you know and older and the Sally Army was always playing and hymn singing in the gardens.
DJ: Yes.
RA: And then we used to go down, you know where the underground toilets were?
DJ: Lumley Road was the main drive through.
RA: Yeah, and the [unclear] sanctuary. [unclear] Hotel.
DJ: That was Lumley Road. Drummond Road was the road past the bus station that went up to the clock tower. When you got to the clock tower you turned left and go into Lumley Road.
RA: Oh yes. Just down there towards [unclear] there used to be a café [unclear] and I said to her I was talking to her she had all these old photos of old Skeg. The last year I went in she was there having a cup of tea [unclear] used to come in, ‘Now tell me next to you or somewhere down here there was an ice cream lady. She used to be, ‘Ices. Ices. Hot drinks served inside. Hot drinks served inside.’ And she said, ‘Oh that was Mrs Maloney or something.
DJ: It would be. Yeah.
RA: And she only died a few years ago.
DJ: I remember that.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: I remember.
RA: ‘Ices. Ices .’ She was Italian. I reckon she was Italian. ‘Ices. Ices.’ Then a bit further down there was a rock place wasn’t there?
DJ: Where they used to make the rock.
RA: Making the rock. Yes. And —
DJ: Yes.
RA: Hildred’s Bar. Well, we used to go to the pier and there used to be Johnny Ramsdens. That used to be great.
DJ: Yes. We used to have social events during the winter.
RA: Yeah.
DJ: He used to play at these different dances and things like that.
RA: And I went in. I took my wife [unclear] I said I’ve never ever been in this [unclear] before. I said we’ll go in. It was looking a bit bleak towards the end. I don’t know what it was like before. I said, ‘We’ll go in —'
DJ: [unclear]
RA: There was a chap playing the drums and a chap on, I think he was double bass and I said that bloke looks very much familiar. So I said, ‘I reckon that’s Joe Ramsden who used to play on the pier.’ I said, ‘Excuse me. Did you used to be the drummer for Jack Ramsden?’ He said, ‘Yes I was.’ So that was something.