Interview with Henry Chappell
Title
Interview with Henry Chappell
Creator
Date
1994-03-16
Language
Type
Format
00:56:57 audio recording
Conforms To
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
Identifier
AChappell19960316-0004, AChappell19960316-0001, AChappell19960316-0002, AChappell19960316-0003
Transcription
Interviewer: We’re talking to Mr Chappell who flew from Bardney from, his first flight being on the 25th of the 3rd ’44 to him crashing in France on the 3rd of the 5th ‘44. Right. So what, where did you train then? If you could just tell us where you trained.
[pause]
HC: Started off in London there look.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: Then you come to an OTU eventually don’t you?
Interviewer: In London on? 1110485. So this was just training on the —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: No. That was just the basic RAF training that.
Interviewer: Right.
HC: You’ll see when you come to —
Interviewer: You went to Shropshire, Bridlington, Isle of Man.
HC: Yeah. That. Yeah. The Isle of Man was the first really Air Gunnery School, you see. A.G. School.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: And —
Interviewer: On the 28th of the 8th 1943.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: You started on the 12th of 6th [unclear] gunnery. Then you went to the Sergeant’s Mess at Market Harborough.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: From the 12th to the 10th. That’s 76 course 14 OTU.
HC: Operational Training Unit. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. And that was where you trained for your gunnery was it as well?
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. We’ve got a Warwickshire satellite. Then you went to Aircrew Command School. Commando School.
HC: Commando yeah —
Interviewer: What was, what was so different there then? What was —
HC: They trained you how to look after yourself if you got shot down and things like that.
Interviewer: Just commando style.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: Yeah [laughs] yeah.
Interviewer: Syerston.
HC: When you hear, you often hear them on about Scampton on Radio Lincoln.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HC: They’re often talking about who was there and everything but nobody ever mentions that other.
Interviewer: Yeah. Maybe they didn’t know. Was it a big school then?
HC: Not really.
Interviewer: A big area?
HC: No. About, there wouldn’t be above fifty or so people there at one time like, you know. Just a little —
Interviewer: Did everyone go there then or was it just a big area?
HC: I think it was possibly to keep you occupied while you were waiting to carry on your training like.
Interviewer: Then you went to Conversion Unit at Swinderby. 1660.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: On Stirlings. Then at Syerston Finishing School 5.
HC: Lanc Finishing School.
Interviewer: Lanc. What’s the five then? Is that —
HC: Number 5 Lanc Finishing School.
Interviewer: Right. Five. 5 Lanc Finishing School, Syerston. Lancaster the 9th of the 3rd ’44. And then 9 Squadron A flight, Bardney 23rd of the 3rd and then what’s this? In France. That’s when you —
HC: Yeah. That’s, that’s when I spent my time in France actually. Yeah.
Interviewer: After you had been shot down.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Crashed.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: That was the 3rd of the 5th ’44 to the —
HC: I did —
Interviewer: 6th of the 9th ’44.
HC: A lot more time with the French Underground than what I did [laughs] with Number 9 Squadron.
Interviewer: Yeah. [unclear] 15th of the 10th, Aircrew Assistance Centre, air squadron on the 18th of the 10th Sergeant’s Mess, [unclear] 24th of the 11th. And then on a course [pause] Then you were in airfield control.
HC: That’s right. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] Right. So, you say, you say you don’t remember much about Bardney.
HC: No. No. Very little.
Interviewer: Were you with a crew when you when you came to Bardney?
HC: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We were a crew from the Lanc Finishing School.
Interviewer: Some of the people they say when they came they said that when they came there was only six of them. They didn’t have a flight engineer.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was that when they were on a, on a Wellington squadron or something like that?
HC: Well —
Interviewer: They had only got six.
HC: When we were on that Lanc Finishing School we had two flight engineers. We had our own. We had another one with us who was actually training so that the next course that came in he’d go in as the proper engineer and he’d take another one with him. It was that intensive flight engineer training that they had two. You know, a little bit extra.
Interviewer: Yeah. So what did you do at these training schools then? You just, you crewed up and then you just went flying?
HC: Yeah. Just did circuits and bumps and things like that. Night flying operationally.
Interviewer: And did you, you got the use of, did you actually have live ammunition then or were you on a rifle range or something like that?
HC: I can’t ever remember firing live ammunition at those places. We used to do in Gunnery School obviously but I can’t remember doing there. Cine cameras though.
Interviewer: So anyway if you, you got to Bardney, you don’t remember much about it. It was out, you came to Bardney on the 23rd did we say?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. You came on the 23rd so your first op was on the 25th. What was it, what was it like then when you —
HC: Simple. Nothing to it.
Interviewer: Was it?
HC: Yeah. We got through.
Interviewer: No problem at all.
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: You weren’t scared or anything like that?
HC: No. Not really. No. There was a peculiar feeling when you’re waiting but once you got going that’s it you’ve —
Interviewer: And then your next one were you basically just looking forward to it then or it didn’t really bother you.
HC: Well, I can’t say as I looked forward to it but you just accepted it.
Interviewer: Did, did you meet any trouble? I mean were you shot at other than your last —
HC: No. None at all really. Except for ack ack. We hit quite a lot of ack ack but we never saw any fighters at all.
Interviewer: You didn’t?
HC: No [unclear]
Interviewer: Did you ever fire your guns in anger then?
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: Ever shot at —
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: Your rear gunner or anybody fired?
HC: No. Nobody. No.
Interviewer: Never shot at. And everything, things went on but you were saying your pilot was a bit of a —
HC: He was very stern.
Interviewer: A bit of a fussy guy.
HC: Yes.
Interviewer: Which was why he went around twice.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So did any, was there anything you can mention on any of these trips then other than your last one where you went. When you went. What was —
HC: No. I can’t.
Interviewer: Alright.
HC: No. I can remember Paris trip. The marshalling yard in Paris.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: There was just one solitary little gun popping off at one end of the marshalling yard but other than that there was nothing.
Interviewer: And was this marshalling yard for the railway?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Railway.
HC: Most of these. A lot of these raids were on marshalling yards.
Interviewer: All these raids you did.
HC: The majority of them yeah.
Interviewer: Because presumably they were softening up.
HC: Yeah. For D-day.
Interviewer: For D-day.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: They were just in [unclear]
HC: That was the idea of the Mailly raid you see. You see they’d moved all their Panzer divisions into this camp. But Mailly was similar to our Catterick if you understand it with the main, it was a big Army, French Army camp but the Germans had taken it over and everybody had moved up there, slept the night there and were moving on the next day you see so the raid had to be carried out that particular night.
Interviewer: Right. So what, what happened to you then because you actually took off at 21:52 according to the records.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And where are we? You were carrying [pause] it doesn’t say what you were carrying that night. Was it just conventional weapons?
HC: It was, one four thousand pounder and sixteen five hundreds.
Interviewer: One [pause] one four thousand pounder.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was that a cookie?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And sixteen five hundreds. See there wanted a, you know being sort of a big area devastated.
Interviewer: Yeah, because Tallboys. They hadn’t got them.
HC: No. There weren’t in [unclear].
Interviewer: They weren’t. No.
Interviewer: So you obviously got over the French camp with no problem then. What happened then?
HC: Well, if you just switch that off a minute I’ll let you read. You obviously need time to read that but that was written by —
Interviewer: I’ll pick that up in a minute.
HC: That was written by Lionel Lacey-Johnson and he was a big Army man and he wrote that about his, about his brother that was lost. He was in another, he wasn’t in 9. He was in another squadron. But that’s all about it. I’ll see if I can find you a bit about the raid.
[pause]
HC: This is the reason for me producing that. It was [unclear] for a Mr Cook who was doing a special write up about this Mailly raid because it was a big mess up you see. A cock up altogether the Mailly raid was. A disaster.
Interviewer: Why was that?
HC: Well, the man in charge got shot down or something happened to him. The man who was supposed to take over couldn’t because the American Forces Network was broadcasting on the same frequency as what our local stuff was, where they were telling you what to do. It was a raid where we didn’t have radio silence. We were told. They were talking. There were instructions going around all the time you see and the idea was when you went in to bomb there was going to be two green verey lights and the word telling you to go in. Well, it never happened you see. It went kaput and everybody was circling around these marker points. Markers that Pathfinders had dropped down. Everybody was circling around these and the German night fighters were circling around underneath us popping us down.
Interviewer: Oh.
HC: A terrible mess.
Interviewer: Oh.
HC: That’s, that’s how I come to write this thing [pause] It tells you here about not firing and this, that and the other.
[pause]
Interviewer: So on this then let’s see [unclear] So had you, you when you went in on this here raid then you were flying around waiting.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Through all this mess up. Did you actually go in and drop your bombs then?
HC: No. We were shot down. That’s what this Mr Cook was on about. Well, previously in some of the letters but he makes reference to us jettisoning bombs because there were some bombs jettisoned and it destroyed a lot of houses you see [unclear] but it certainly wasn’t us our bombs were certainly still on board when we crashed. [unclear].
Interviewer: Right. So you were, you were shot down by a fighter.
HC: Definitely.
Interviewer: Passing underneath.
HC: Yeah. Yeah. Upward firing guns I presume.
Interviewer: So —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you’re, at one time at Bardney they did have a Lanc but I’m not quite sure when it was it had a downward —
HC: Yeah. The —
Interviewer: Pointing down.
HC: They didn’t bother with a lot.
Interviewer: They didn’t —
HC: No. No. They weren’t very sophisticated.
Interviewer: Was there any down there when you were there?
HC: No. I don’t remember any. No.
Interviewer: So, so basically what happened then? You say the fighter attacked from the rear and below so did the, the rear end guy couldn’t get a shot at him either.
HC: Nobody saw anything at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: The only thing I saw was when he come up you know sort of up afterwards like and I think it was a JU88 because it was quite a nice night.
Interviewer: Yeah. So then you say you saw tracer bullets came straight through the middle of the fuselage to the tail. From the tail, the full length of the aircraft. “How they missed me I shall never know. [unclear] either the rear gunner or myself. No basic manoeuvre was possible. The aircraft was immediately engulfed in flames [unclear] the rear exit. The door was already open like.” So you just, so everybody just baled out then.
HC: No. Just myself and the New Zealand fella.
Interviewer: Porteous is that?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: The bomb aimer.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Were you the only two who got out of it then?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So all the others crashed with the plane were they?
HC: Yeah. Yeah. I believe, I found out since that the pilot actually did get out but he was too low you know. He had no chance.
Interviewer: Because I’ve been looking through the Roll of Honour for 5 Group and Ineson is in it. Margetts is in it but he’s down as a pilot officer whereas this says he was a sergeant. Our records said he was a sergeant but he had —
HC: Yeah. [pause] I think he probably did get promoted after what happened. You see, what have you got down? What have you got Mackenzie down as?
Interviewer: Flight sergeant.
HC: Yeah. Well, he was made up to pilot officer in some of his records.
Interviewer: Yeah. What happened to him then? Did he get —
HC: Yeah. He got killed. Yeah.
Interviewer: Because I’ll show you the Roll of Honour but if you haven’t got their numbers then it’s a bit difficult because I’ve got him down as HF Mackenzie.
HC: Is that Canadian?
Interviewer: Yeah. But, so Wilkinson, he’s in the —
HC: Yeah. He was the rear gunner.
Interviewer: He’s in it so there’s just yourself and Porteous.
HC: That’s right.
Interviewer: So [pause] well you just, I don’t suppose you know what height you were. The usual bombing height. About ten thousand, something like that.
HC: We weren’t very high actually. I don’t think I’ve got it there [pause – pages turning] I don’t think I’ve got it written down anywhere but I know it didn’t seem very long before I [unclear] something like that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: This is the only bit of information I’ve got about that. This is, I think this was from that Cook fella. You see what he, what this Cook man did when he kept writing and asking me definite things you know. Did I think the raid was a success? Was it, you know this, that and the other and I think he sent me this.
[pause]
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, this, that file there is what he’s got off the —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: That I’ve got.
HC: All these files in there they are the same. All the crews that went on that raid and everything. Time of take-off and things like that.
Interviewer: Yeah, all these, all these come off —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Come off basically what I, what I do [pause] straight after [pause]
[pause – pages turning]
Interviewer: But then I’ve got the, I’ve got the 9 Squadron Station Record Book as well.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Which gives you, tells you where they were going and how many planes were there and I presume they have it. So we —
HC: [unclear]
Interviewer: So, you, sorry go on. Go on.
HC: Carry on.
Interviewer: Sorry, that’s a picture I took.
HC: It should have an aerial thing of the Mailly camp actually. The photograph of the —
Interviewer: Which is the camp?
HC: Oh, all over. The whole lot.
Interviewer: Part of the camp here.
HC: Just part of the camp. Yeah.
Interviewer: The camp.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So what happened when you got to the [pause] so just when the others were, all the others died.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: They all, they all died. So there was you and Porteous.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you, did you land together you and Porteous?
HC: I never saw him again in my life.
Interviewer: You still haven’t seen him.
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: Haven’t seen him since.
HC: No.
Interviewer: What happened to you then? You obviously hit the ground in the parachute. Whereabouts were you? Were you near the camp at all?
HC: As it turned out I was very close. Yeah. About five ten miles or so. Not far. I’ll let you have a copy of that in the end. I probably, it tells you better than I can.
[pause]
Interviewer: Is this the, you were saying that friend of yours —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] So —
[pause]
Interviewer: So it came in. Your French sheet came in then did it.
HC: Oh, aye. Nearly.
Interviewer: I was going to say. And you, well you just changed your clothes [unclear] some underclothing.
HC: I eventually I finished up with no RAF clothing but first off I was very reluctant to part with anything. My actual battledress, the young fella that got that after the war he used to wear it for his Sunday best.
Interviewer: Did he?
HC: Yeah. A Frenchman.
Interviewer: A Frenchman this was.
HC: Yeah. This was.
Interviewer: So you were met by the Underground then were you?
HC: Well, I think it tells you later on down there doesn’t it?
Interviewer: Well, I was thinking [unclear]
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was it worrying then when you, when you were in France?
HC: Yes. It was for the first day or two. Yeah. Very worrying. Yeah. But the first night I, when I landed I landed in a little space between two woods. A little field. I just sat, you know. Laid there for a few minutes pulling myself together, got rid of the parachute and started walking in a southerly direction. I had no idea where I was but I just, I knew I had that little compass. I just headed south and eventually I landed up at this village.
Interviewer: They took you in, did they?
HC: Well, yeah. But they got me in touch with the French Underground anyhow.
Interviewer: And then what? They, they took you over then did they?
HC: Yeah. We lived in woods then.
Interviewer: What? Just in the open?
HC: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we dug like big dug outs. Chopped trees down and laid them across the top. Then put straw on top. Soil on top of that. And that’s how most of the French Underground people lived.
Interviewer: They actually lived there.
HC: Oh yeah. A lot of them you see were [pause] a lot of the French underground were men that had been to Germany on forced labour and when they came back, they were allowed to come back on leave occasionally. Well, when they came back rather than go back to Germany they just absconded and joined the Underground.
Interviewer: And were you the only one then?
HC: There was an American with us. And we were the only two for a long long while until just before [pause] well, just before we got liberated and then we picked a few more up.
Interviewer: Where, whereabouts was it then? Whereabouts in France were you?
HC: It’s near Chalons. Chalon [sur ] in Bernier. You know, where Bernier Champagne comes from. That area.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you were going south were you.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Going south actually. A bit further.
HC: Yeah. It was just drummed into you that much that you, the idea was to get to Spain you see. Head south.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: I don’t suppose you know there was talk about one guy actually getting back to Bardney from Spain.
Interviewer: Yeah. I believe there was. Yeah.
HC: You don’t know who.
Interviewer: No.
HC: Anything about that.
HC: I’ve read quite a lot of these books about evasion and this, that and the other but there was several of them did it. Made it like.
Interviewer: So you were there and you just stayed there and you [pause] What did they do like? You lived off the land.
HC: Well, [unclear] quite well, yeah. People used to bring us food and things like that.
Interviewer: So the locals knew you were there.
HC: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: And these Underground were they going out and also disrupting things —
HC: Yeah. Also, there were two raids down there that we went on.
Interviewer: You went as well did you?
HC: Yeah. On several of them. Yeah.
Interviewer: You couldn’t speak any French though.
HC: Just school, schoolboy French. That was all. We made out though.
[pause]
Interviewer: And then when you, so obviously after D-day then when they got you were liberated —
HC: About September time wasn’t it? Quite a [pause] They seemed to be a long time getting to us.
Interviewer: Did they know you were there then? Had they got told?
HC: Yeah. Because I had to, the man in charge of that particular area of the Maquis he interviewed me like and I had to draw a sketch of my billet at Bardney. Put in my bedspace in relation to the others and put any, and could I remember any items that I’d left around there you know obviously. Well, you see when you think about it nobody else could answer that question.
Interviewer: Yeah. How could they?
HC: They had to be sure.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: Until they were absolutely sure they watched me like a hawk. [unclear] I was never let out of their sight.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: And when, when I first met the French Underground, the French people, the French Underground people I was put in a farm kitchen and there were, I think there must have been someone there who could speak reasonably English and they were talking to me about this, that and the other. And all at once this American spoke up and he’d never said a word until they’d finished talking like. You see, if they’d got a wrong ‘un amongst that French Underground it would have been disastrous.
Interviewer: So you’ve, you basically go down there then. You just stayed there and you went on some raids with them.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Were there many Germans around?
HC: Oh yeah. One day I went to have a look at the crashed aircraft you know after they’d taken the guard off on the way to the wall I went to have a look where it crashed and we looked, had a good look around and everything and then that was when they said, ‘View Bosch?’ So, we just walked across another field and sat on the edge of the road and watched the German convoys going past.
Interviewer: Yeah?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was the plane smashed up then or something?
HC: Yeah. I’ve got some photographs of the aircraft.
Interviewer: What, of the actual plane?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Have you?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Is there any chance I can photograph them for the computer?
HC: [unclear]
Interviewer: Oh lovely.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So did the bombs go off?
HC: Must have done.
Interviewer: Did they explode?
HC: I think when you see a photograph you’ll realise that they must have done. That’s why I was sure when that Cook fella wrote to me I was absolutely certain. The remains were scattered over a couple of fields or more. There wasn’t one, there wasn’t a big piece anywhere.
Interviewer: But that could, that could well be because I’ve been talking to Jim Brookbank who was, he was, he’s the chairman of 9 Squadron Association. He was a bomb aimer and I was asking him about the bombs because another bit of research I’m doing is about a guy he’s, no [pause] a friend’s father he, they got shot down and they had a Tallboy on. I said to him, I said, ‘With a Tallboy, if you crashed with a Tallboy on board would it explode?’ He said it was unlikely unless the pin was out. He said the only ones that he was aware of that would go up even if you looked at them wrong was a Cookie. He said he only had to look at that wrong and he never landed with them on.
HC: We always jettisoned them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: We didn’t bring that back.
Interviewer: And that’s what he, that’s what he was saying. That’s what it may be been. His cookie. So you went, you went to have a look at the plane and presumably these [pause] no. That’s in France is it?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So these people had been buried in France.
HC: Yeah. I’ve got some photographs of their grave. I’ve got some details of the funeral as well.
Interviewer: Have you?
HC: Oh no. No. I never saw the graves until after we got liberated.
Interviewer: Well, then you went [pause] well you came, did you come back here?
HC: No. No. After we had been liberated there was a day or two we didn’t know if we’d been liberated or not. It was a bit dodgy. You could go up, I was living and working at a farm at one bit and also living in woods like but you could go out and you’d see a German tank going down the road like that and within a few minutes an American tank would go the other way and you know you couldn’t understand how they’d missed one another. Things like that. It was unbelievable but what, what we did do, at that time I think we picked up several more Americans. Three or four more Americans, certainly another two Englishmen, another Canadian, you know. Quite a gang of us. But that American and myself we’d been together for three months and it was probably wrong of us I don’t know but we had an understanding that if anything happened we two were going to stick together regardless of later comers. We’d survived that long we thought well you know we know how we think between our two selves and we’ll stick together, and we did. We always stuck together.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And then so when you were liberated you went to, you found out about where these graves were and everything.
HC: Well, when we were liberated the American and myself they lent us two bicycles and he went back to see some of the people that he’d lived with because he lived in a house for so long until it got too dangerous and he wanted to go back and we finished up going to the church and finding these graves.
Interviewer: Then presumably they’d just be ordinary dug graves with no [unclear] just a simple cross on it.
HC: When we went there was nothing. Just a big area and a mound and there was the propeller. A propeller blade about eighteen inches long just laid on it with no markings at all on it.
Interviewer: You just knew it was a Lancaster.
HC: And so I remember I scratched on this propeller PO Anderson and crew because I didn’t know, you know, but I thought it must be. Most of them must be there. But now there is two proper, there are two headstones there now. One for the pilot, Jim because his was the only body that was a body and the other headstone has all their names on.
Interviewer: And have you been back since?
HC: Yes. I went back on the fiftieth anniversary.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: We were invited back by the [pause] they had a very big do at Mailly camp the French people did and we got invited back to that.
Interviewer: What yourself? [how did they get in touch with you then? Did the Underground –
HC: There is actually a Mailly Association as well combined of English and French people you see.
Interviewer: And you joined it.
HC: And it was this, it was this [Alison] Johnson that got in touch with me about it and asked me if I’d like to go. So, I said I would and it was all fixed up and they were going just for a short visit of two or three days you see. Well, then the niece of our pilot, I’d been in touch with her or she’d been in touch with me rather and she thought we ought to go for longer than that. So I said fair enough so we went for a week actually and the big ceremony was at the, on the Saturday night you see. I went by train because I was [unclear] and met her there and [unclear] put on for us like.
Interviewer: So you had another look at the graves.
HC: Oh yeah. We went and they had a little service there when we were there like again.
Interviewer: You didn’t pick up a few pieces of your plane when you were there?
HC: Yes. I’ve got a bit.
Interviewer: Yeah? What did you get?
HC: I got a very small piece when I was there when I, originally, but since then Mrs Ineson, that’s the niece of the pilot, I was at their house one day and she brought out a cardboard box. She said, ‘Can you do anything with this? Is it any good to you?’ She brought it out and she said, ‘It’s a part of an aeroplane.’ I said, ‘I know. Yeah.’ Somebody in the village had given her it and it was the fan and booster part of one of the turbos like, you know.
Interviewer: Was it? Yeah.
HC: Yeah. I briefly chopped it up quite a bit and made, I made a few things for her. Keyrings and things like that. I made her a holder for keeping the medal cast for this Mailly thing. I made her a holder for that out of it. Things like that.
Interviewer: That was nice wasn’t it? And then when you went and had a look at those and then they, did they fly you back or —
HC: Yeah. We came back to Paris and we flew back from Paris.
Interviewer: And where did you go to then? Did you come back to Bardney ever again?
HC: No. I made a social visit back after that but no.
Interviewer: So you were back before the end of the war.
HC: Oh aye. Yeah.
Interviewer: Back in, you didn’t do any more flying or any more gunnery?
HC: No. I don’t think anybody did that had been, you know done that. No.
Interviewer: No. And then what station did you finish up in?
HC: Topcliffe.
Interviewer: [unclear] was that Lancasters as well?
HC: No. It was Flying Training Command.
Interviewer: And then you came back to Bardney again three weeks ago.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Lovely. Smashing. [pause] Stop that a minute and I’ll get some —
[recording paused]
HC: I never put the parachute in the parachute holding place because I was pretty short and I had a job to reach it and I used to wire it down on that big step, just on that step so that it were there. So I grabbed hold of it and out I went.
Interviewer: So, what your, had your intercom gone?
HC: Oh yeah. Yeah. Everything was [unclear]
Interviewer: What about because fairly close to the navigator, the wireless, well the wireless operator.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was he dead then?
HC: I don’t know. No idea. I wondered actually if the wireless operator had opened the door. [Are you making some tea?] I wondered whether the wireless operator had gone back to the rear gunner and opened the door for them on the way because they were very big fellows them two.
Interviewer: But there was only, they didn’t get out.
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: They just [stayed]
[recording interrupted]
HC: Sorted all this out. Question. Was it all Number 1 and 5 Group raid? There were three hundred and forty six Lancasters and things like that because I know all about it. And then he says there were forty two Lancasters like. Question — was the Panzer Division really at the target? And it goes on and it tells you that they were. Then he goes on here, question again, was the attack really a success? You see and he sort of was —
Interviewer: He was doubting whether it was justified was he?
HC: No. He was trying to get a true picture of that raid. As authentic as he could possibly get. He was going to produce, or he was going to produce a book solely on the raid on Mailly because it was the second worst disaster for the RAF that particular night. You know, in comparison to the number of aircraft and losses. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] I think you said fifteen or fourteen came back was it?
HC: Yeah. There was fifteen [unclear] Fifteen out of two hundred and fifty. Something like that.
Interviewer: I don’t know. I can have a look at the Bomber Command book on that. Bardney. Bardney sent fifteen aircraft and you were the only ones that was —
HC: This was out of [pause] October ’86, “Aviation News” and they put on there to tell you that they were flying at five thousand feet. I thought I’d seen it somewhere.
[pause]
Interviewer: Six aircrew killed. That Porteous, he was killed?
HC: No. That’s a mistake. That’s why, that’s why that Mrs Ineson didn’t bother to look for me until about two or three years since. She thought he was the only one surviving.
Interviewer: And one prisoner. [unclear]
HC: He got taken prisoner. Yeah.
[pause]
Interviewer: We’ve got you down here.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: A bit of a strange feeling you know when you see yourself down —
HC: [laughs] yeah. HC: You realise that the raid was led by Cheshire don’t you? Group Captain Cheshire.
Interviewer: No. I didn’t to be quite honest. To be quite honest until what I do is I research for 9 Squadron Association [unclear] just at Bardney and a lot of the time just took on to finding people and where they went, what raids they went on etcetera as far as the actual raids are concerned. You know, that sort of research.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: I didn’t, I didn’t know Cheshire was in charge. But I didn’t [unclear]
HC: [unclear] He was the main [pause] obviously he was in a Mosquito like.
Interviewer: Yeah. Was he a Pathfinder at that time then or was the leader?
HC: Well, he was a Pathfinder. Well, he actually led that raid. You see, they got very brave you see. They used to fly around and stop there and issue instructions you know in case things went wrong.
Interviewer: And were they, were the Pathfinders always in Mosquitoes then?
HC: Not always but very often. Yeah. Because they could get there and get out of it couldn’t they?
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: We were very unlucky because we were on the first run into that target you know. We should have been able to get in and away before things started to happen. Had there not been a mess up we would have been got away with it.
Interviewer: How long were you over the target then do you think? [unclear]
HC: Oh, it seemed a devil of a long while but I don’t know really. I saw, I saw about fifteen other planes go down before we went down. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s partly in that account of mine where I think Porteous, I think he suggested that we went in to bomb. If we hadn’t got, I mean, I think having got the very large bomb, we wouldn’t go because we hadn’t had the instructions, the final instructions. [unclear] to go.
Interviewer: When you saw all those planes going down what do you do? Did you look for parachutes coming? Did you see parachutes.
HC: No. No. Never saw anything. No. No.
Interviewer: Did they just fall out the sky then? Did they explode?
HC: Well, it was hard to tell because they used to fire up Scarecrows as well you know. Out of ack ack. They used to fire these things up something [pause] they used to burst and make it look as if it was a plane.
Interviewer: [pause] I didn’t know. What was that —
HC: Yeah. I think they were call them Scarecrows. They used to fire them up and they used to burst.
Interviewer: They shot —
HC: Yeah, and they gave the impression that it was an aircraft.
Interviewer: An aircraft on fire or —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. As if they’d hit one.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Just to demoralise you.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] As I say, you know there’s not many people around like [unclear]
HC: No. I wasn’t very interested at all really. But when this Mrs Ineson found out, she found out from a Frenchman actually that I was still alive because he told her that there was definitely two Englishmen, not two, and Englishman lived with them you see. She sort of went deeper into it and found me.
Interviewer: That was the, that was the [unclear]
HC: This is for those who don’t read French [laughs]
Interviewer: Actually our village is twinned with a French [unclear]
HC: Oh.
Interviewer: And it’s called, if I remember [pause] [unclear]
HC: Oh, right.
Interviewer: Just before, about four miles this side north of [unclear]
HC: Oh.
Interviewer: It used to go straight through.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: They’ve put a bypass around it.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: But the guy who comes over, who’s was the interpreter, his father was a Resistance fighter.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And he was a [unclear] this chap, Claude, he used to be the runner for them.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] he said when the Germans got started it was [unclear] wide open and there was nothing [unclear]
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: He’s told me a bit about it.
HC: Theres a bit of information about the actual raid I think isn’t it? [pause] This was produced at the, at the fiftieth anniversary like. These ones. You just picked them up as you went through.
Interviewer: So this was the one and only raid on that camp?
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: They didn’t do anything more. Was it a success then?
HC: Well —
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: The French people seemed to think it was. They were very very proud of RAF people altogether. More than our own people are I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. You say you’ve got some photos.
HC: Yes. I have. Yeah.
[pause]
HC: Here firing guns. Someplace [pause]
Interviewer: I have heard about it. I watch Discovery a lot on telly and it’s got there’s a lot of wartime stuff on now.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
I can’t seem to find it. It might have been —
Interviewer: [unclear] Can I take photographs of those as well?
HC: Aye.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: But this, but this is, another man that wrote to me. A Mr Ackroyd. He was a flight engineer on a Halifax that got shot down on that raid. They didn’t carry bombs. They were just loaded up with electronic equipment to distract and counter German radar instructions. This is his actual his account of the raid and everything.
Interviewer: Was that a regular thing on a raid?
HC: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Send in a Halifax to fool the Germans. An extra, they used to carry an extra operator like a radio man. They just used to have a listen to them and confuse the German, German night fighters and ground controls and everything. And he worked with the same sort of thing. All that. How it all happened and everything.
[recording paused]
HC: We’d got a job on that night. He left it. The same as we did the railway and it had to be done then because a lot of the railways were being blown up at the same time you see.
Interviewer: So they would just get a message and to go and —
HC: Yeah. We used to, yeah we used to listen to, they used to listen rather to English broadcasts of these messages that wouldn’t mean anything to anybody except them like.
Interviewer: The [unclear]
HC: Put, they put one or two charges low down on the ground. I did it because I was small. The American reached as high as he could the other side. Those two went off first because if you blew up, blew all four legs together just jump and it would stand up. You had to make it tip.
Interviewer: And that carried like the —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Connector. Yeah. Not quite, not quite what these [unclear] at thirty thousand volts the first lot of pylons that had come out. Not the really big ones that we get now.
Interviewer: Yeah. So what distance were you from Mailly camp then?
HC: Well, I should think about, oh about [pause] oh an hour’s walk or something like that.
Interviewer: Always walk.
HC: Oh, always walking. Yeah.
Interviewer: At night.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: What other places would you see pylons.
HC: If we saw pylons we did a small railway line at a place called [unclear] I think it is. It’s in there, and we blew up where the lines went across one line into another line you see. We blew all that lot up. Maximum effect. But I think [unclear] took them to repair them and put it back up.
Interviewer: You know after [pause] did you go out most nights?
HC: No. No. No. Not very often but I think the actual date. The other night, the first thing we ever went on was a bit ridiculous really. We went and put a French flag and a notice on the War Memorial in, in [unclear] a little place probably a bit bigger than Bardney and stuck this thing up like. As I remember it said, I wrote the thing out, the notice up and it said, “The days of Liberation are at hand.’ And you know telling them to keep their pecker up and this, that and the other.
Interviewer: Was that occupied by the Germans then?
HC: Oh yeah. Yeah. It made quite a stir. There was nobody arrested but it caused quite a stir the next morning of German —
Interviewer: Did you hear about any French being shot for being in the Resistance or anything?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] Did they come looking for you?
HC: Yeah. The local parson.
Interviewer: Really?
HC: This man here. Have I got a better photo? I have to get them blown up this one. This is really [pause] you probably can’t see [unclear] you can obviously see that in the dark.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: He was the local vicar.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: They shot him because he was carrying a gun there. He carried a colt 55 under his cassock and they shot him when he come out of Sunday School. He was taking Sunday School in church and he could see these German troops coming into the churchyard so he run out and run down through the churchyard and across the field and they shot him just before he crossed a little, a little dyke.
Interviewer: And was this just the ordinary Germans or was this like the SS?
HC: No. well, I don’t know really. I couldn’t tell you.
Interviewer: Who are these. Is this a different camp to that one?
HC: This was in Trécon Woods. [unclear] camp at Trécon Woods.
Interviewer: What’s [unclear] camp mean? Is that just —
HC: Well, it’s just a group. it means a group. you know, a little group and it might mean camp.
Interviewer: And where is this?
HC: At Trécon. T R E C O N.
Interviewer: Trécon.
HC: Trécon Woods. There’s a village called Trécon.
Interviewer: Ok. That’s when is this one like. I take it —
HC: That would be about the end of June, about the beginning of May. Shortly after I got there.
Interviewer: So this was your first one then.
HC: Yeah.
[pause]
Interviewer: Are you in this one?
HC: Yeah. I’m the one with the little [unclear] somewhere. There look.
Interviewer: That one.
HC: Yes. I wish I had brought [unclear]
Interviewer: One, two, three, four —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: In from the right.
HC: Mrs Ineson sent me one of those that she’d had blown up to about a foot, a foot square but it’s come out very good. There weren’t many of those people left actually when I went back to France two years since.
Interviewer: Wasn’t there?
HC: No. I met one, four of them I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. So [pause] [unclear] what about any, was there any other jaunts that you went on?
HC: No. Not really.
Interviewer: I suppose you really enjoyed it did you?
HC: Yeah. You see when they actually got to close in fighting they used to go out to you know hand to hand jobs and like they wouldn’t take us with them then.
Interviewer: It was the French that would be captured.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. You went on sabotage.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you ever meet any [unclear]
HC: When I was working at this farm we lived in [unclear] about just a couple of fields from this farm and it was harvest time you see so that American and myself used to stack corn on the farm and everything. Went up one morning. I went to one back door of the farmhouse, down the passageway, passageway straight through. Through the side door that led up into the kitchen. I opened the door and was going to go through and there was a German buying eggs and he was just stood there waiting in front of him so I just spoke to them and went into the kitchen.
Interviewer: Were you actually speaking in French or anything like that?
HC: Yeah. Yeah. Just gave them a mumbled, ‘Bonjour,’ like. Yeah. And I was led to believe that they came once too often to that. They [unclear] once and didn’t come back. [laughs] They were very callous these French. I suppose you can understand it can’t you?
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: They did them when they got when they were sure they were going to be taken over [unclear] yeah.
Interviewer: Did you, did the underground get it back to your parents that you were alive?
HC: No. No way.
Interviewer: So they would get a letter saying that you were the usual —
HC: The usual. A cable. Yeah. Missing in action. I think I’ve got copies of them in there. Well, it was just, “missing.” I don’t think it was ever presumed. It was missing all the time.
Interviewer: Right. So they’d get presumably about September time they would get a missive would go back that you were alive.
HC: I don’t think my mother got to know until [pause] I don’t think she got to know until a day or two days before I arrived home. No.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: South [unclear] Yeah.
Ok. Right. Thank you.
[pause]
HC: Started off in London there look.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: Then you come to an OTU eventually don’t you?
Interviewer: In London on? 1110485. So this was just training on the —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: No. That was just the basic RAF training that.
Interviewer: Right.
HC: You’ll see when you come to —
Interviewer: You went to Shropshire, Bridlington, Isle of Man.
HC: Yeah. That. Yeah. The Isle of Man was the first really Air Gunnery School, you see. A.G. School.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: And —
Interviewer: On the 28th of the 8th 1943.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: You started on the 12th of 6th [unclear] gunnery. Then you went to the Sergeant’s Mess at Market Harborough.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: From the 12th to the 10th. That’s 76 course 14 OTU.
HC: Operational Training Unit. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. And that was where you trained for your gunnery was it as well?
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. We’ve got a Warwickshire satellite. Then you went to Aircrew Command School. Commando School.
HC: Commando yeah —
Interviewer: What was, what was so different there then? What was —
HC: They trained you how to look after yourself if you got shot down and things like that.
Interviewer: Just commando style.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: Yeah [laughs] yeah.
Interviewer: Syerston.
HC: When you hear, you often hear them on about Scampton on Radio Lincoln.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HC: They’re often talking about who was there and everything but nobody ever mentions that other.
Interviewer: Yeah. Maybe they didn’t know. Was it a big school then?
HC: Not really.
Interviewer: A big area?
HC: No. About, there wouldn’t be above fifty or so people there at one time like, you know. Just a little —
Interviewer: Did everyone go there then or was it just a big area?
HC: I think it was possibly to keep you occupied while you were waiting to carry on your training like.
Interviewer: Then you went to Conversion Unit at Swinderby. 1660.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: On Stirlings. Then at Syerston Finishing School 5.
HC: Lanc Finishing School.
Interviewer: Lanc. What’s the five then? Is that —
HC: Number 5 Lanc Finishing School.
Interviewer: Right. Five. 5 Lanc Finishing School, Syerston. Lancaster the 9th of the 3rd ’44. And then 9 Squadron A flight, Bardney 23rd of the 3rd and then what’s this? In France. That’s when you —
HC: Yeah. That’s, that’s when I spent my time in France actually. Yeah.
Interviewer: After you had been shot down.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Crashed.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: That was the 3rd of the 5th ’44 to the —
HC: I did —
Interviewer: 6th of the 9th ’44.
HC: A lot more time with the French Underground than what I did [laughs] with Number 9 Squadron.
Interviewer: Yeah. [unclear] 15th of the 10th, Aircrew Assistance Centre, air squadron on the 18th of the 10th Sergeant’s Mess, [unclear] 24th of the 11th. And then on a course [pause] Then you were in airfield control.
HC: That’s right. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] Right. So, you say, you say you don’t remember much about Bardney.
HC: No. No. Very little.
Interviewer: Were you with a crew when you when you came to Bardney?
HC: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We were a crew from the Lanc Finishing School.
Interviewer: Some of the people they say when they came they said that when they came there was only six of them. They didn’t have a flight engineer.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was that when they were on a, on a Wellington squadron or something like that?
HC: Well —
Interviewer: They had only got six.
HC: When we were on that Lanc Finishing School we had two flight engineers. We had our own. We had another one with us who was actually training so that the next course that came in he’d go in as the proper engineer and he’d take another one with him. It was that intensive flight engineer training that they had two. You know, a little bit extra.
Interviewer: Yeah. So what did you do at these training schools then? You just, you crewed up and then you just went flying?
HC: Yeah. Just did circuits and bumps and things like that. Night flying operationally.
Interviewer: And did you, you got the use of, did you actually have live ammunition then or were you on a rifle range or something like that?
HC: I can’t ever remember firing live ammunition at those places. We used to do in Gunnery School obviously but I can’t remember doing there. Cine cameras though.
Interviewer: So anyway if you, you got to Bardney, you don’t remember much about it. It was out, you came to Bardney on the 23rd did we say?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. You came on the 23rd so your first op was on the 25th. What was it, what was it like then when you —
HC: Simple. Nothing to it.
Interviewer: Was it?
HC: Yeah. We got through.
Interviewer: No problem at all.
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: You weren’t scared or anything like that?
HC: No. Not really. No. There was a peculiar feeling when you’re waiting but once you got going that’s it you’ve —
Interviewer: And then your next one were you basically just looking forward to it then or it didn’t really bother you.
HC: Well, I can’t say as I looked forward to it but you just accepted it.
Interviewer: Did, did you meet any trouble? I mean were you shot at other than your last —
HC: No. None at all really. Except for ack ack. We hit quite a lot of ack ack but we never saw any fighters at all.
Interviewer: You didn’t?
HC: No [unclear]
Interviewer: Did you ever fire your guns in anger then?
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: Ever shot at —
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: Your rear gunner or anybody fired?
HC: No. Nobody. No.
Interviewer: Never shot at. And everything, things went on but you were saying your pilot was a bit of a —
HC: He was very stern.
Interviewer: A bit of a fussy guy.
HC: Yes.
Interviewer: Which was why he went around twice.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So did any, was there anything you can mention on any of these trips then other than your last one where you went. When you went. What was —
HC: No. I can’t.
Interviewer: Alright.
HC: No. I can remember Paris trip. The marshalling yard in Paris.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: There was just one solitary little gun popping off at one end of the marshalling yard but other than that there was nothing.
Interviewer: And was this marshalling yard for the railway?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Railway.
HC: Most of these. A lot of these raids were on marshalling yards.
Interviewer: All these raids you did.
HC: The majority of them yeah.
Interviewer: Because presumably they were softening up.
HC: Yeah. For D-day.
Interviewer: For D-day.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: They were just in [unclear]
HC: That was the idea of the Mailly raid you see. You see they’d moved all their Panzer divisions into this camp. But Mailly was similar to our Catterick if you understand it with the main, it was a big Army, French Army camp but the Germans had taken it over and everybody had moved up there, slept the night there and were moving on the next day you see so the raid had to be carried out that particular night.
Interviewer: Right. So what, what happened to you then because you actually took off at 21:52 according to the records.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And where are we? You were carrying [pause] it doesn’t say what you were carrying that night. Was it just conventional weapons?
HC: It was, one four thousand pounder and sixteen five hundreds.
Interviewer: One [pause] one four thousand pounder.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was that a cookie?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And sixteen five hundreds. See there wanted a, you know being sort of a big area devastated.
Interviewer: Yeah, because Tallboys. They hadn’t got them.
HC: No. There weren’t in [unclear].
Interviewer: They weren’t. No.
Interviewer: So you obviously got over the French camp with no problem then. What happened then?
HC: Well, if you just switch that off a minute I’ll let you read. You obviously need time to read that but that was written by —
Interviewer: I’ll pick that up in a minute.
HC: That was written by Lionel Lacey-Johnson and he was a big Army man and he wrote that about his, about his brother that was lost. He was in another, he wasn’t in 9. He was in another squadron. But that’s all about it. I’ll see if I can find you a bit about the raid.
[pause]
HC: This is the reason for me producing that. It was [unclear] for a Mr Cook who was doing a special write up about this Mailly raid because it was a big mess up you see. A cock up altogether the Mailly raid was. A disaster.
Interviewer: Why was that?
HC: Well, the man in charge got shot down or something happened to him. The man who was supposed to take over couldn’t because the American Forces Network was broadcasting on the same frequency as what our local stuff was, where they were telling you what to do. It was a raid where we didn’t have radio silence. We were told. They were talking. There were instructions going around all the time you see and the idea was when you went in to bomb there was going to be two green verey lights and the word telling you to go in. Well, it never happened you see. It went kaput and everybody was circling around these marker points. Markers that Pathfinders had dropped down. Everybody was circling around these and the German night fighters were circling around underneath us popping us down.
Interviewer: Oh.
HC: A terrible mess.
Interviewer: Oh.
HC: That’s, that’s how I come to write this thing [pause] It tells you here about not firing and this, that and the other.
[pause]
Interviewer: So on this then let’s see [unclear] So had you, you when you went in on this here raid then you were flying around waiting.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Through all this mess up. Did you actually go in and drop your bombs then?
HC: No. We were shot down. That’s what this Mr Cook was on about. Well, previously in some of the letters but he makes reference to us jettisoning bombs because there were some bombs jettisoned and it destroyed a lot of houses you see [unclear] but it certainly wasn’t us our bombs were certainly still on board when we crashed. [unclear].
Interviewer: Right. So you were, you were shot down by a fighter.
HC: Definitely.
Interviewer: Passing underneath.
HC: Yeah. Yeah. Upward firing guns I presume.
Interviewer: So —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you’re, at one time at Bardney they did have a Lanc but I’m not quite sure when it was it had a downward —
HC: Yeah. The —
Interviewer: Pointing down.
HC: They didn’t bother with a lot.
Interviewer: They didn’t —
HC: No. No. They weren’t very sophisticated.
Interviewer: Was there any down there when you were there?
HC: No. I don’t remember any. No.
Interviewer: So, so basically what happened then? You say the fighter attacked from the rear and below so did the, the rear end guy couldn’t get a shot at him either.
HC: Nobody saw anything at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: The only thing I saw was when he come up you know sort of up afterwards like and I think it was a JU88 because it was quite a nice night.
Interviewer: Yeah. So then you say you saw tracer bullets came straight through the middle of the fuselage to the tail. From the tail, the full length of the aircraft. “How they missed me I shall never know. [unclear] either the rear gunner or myself. No basic manoeuvre was possible. The aircraft was immediately engulfed in flames [unclear] the rear exit. The door was already open like.” So you just, so everybody just baled out then.
HC: No. Just myself and the New Zealand fella.
Interviewer: Porteous is that?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: The bomb aimer.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Were you the only two who got out of it then?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So all the others crashed with the plane were they?
HC: Yeah. Yeah. I believe, I found out since that the pilot actually did get out but he was too low you know. He had no chance.
Interviewer: Because I’ve been looking through the Roll of Honour for 5 Group and Ineson is in it. Margetts is in it but he’s down as a pilot officer whereas this says he was a sergeant. Our records said he was a sergeant but he had —
HC: Yeah. [pause] I think he probably did get promoted after what happened. You see, what have you got down? What have you got Mackenzie down as?
Interviewer: Flight sergeant.
HC: Yeah. Well, he was made up to pilot officer in some of his records.
Interviewer: Yeah. What happened to him then? Did he get —
HC: Yeah. He got killed. Yeah.
Interviewer: Because I’ll show you the Roll of Honour but if you haven’t got their numbers then it’s a bit difficult because I’ve got him down as HF Mackenzie.
HC: Is that Canadian?
Interviewer: Yeah. But, so Wilkinson, he’s in the —
HC: Yeah. He was the rear gunner.
Interviewer: He’s in it so there’s just yourself and Porteous.
HC: That’s right.
Interviewer: So [pause] well you just, I don’t suppose you know what height you were. The usual bombing height. About ten thousand, something like that.
HC: We weren’t very high actually. I don’t think I’ve got it there [pause – pages turning] I don’t think I’ve got it written down anywhere but I know it didn’t seem very long before I [unclear] something like that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: This is the only bit of information I’ve got about that. This is, I think this was from that Cook fella. You see what he, what this Cook man did when he kept writing and asking me definite things you know. Did I think the raid was a success? Was it, you know this, that and the other and I think he sent me this.
[pause]
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, this, that file there is what he’s got off the —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: That I’ve got.
HC: All these files in there they are the same. All the crews that went on that raid and everything. Time of take-off and things like that.
Interviewer: Yeah, all these, all these come off —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Come off basically what I, what I do [pause] straight after [pause]
[pause – pages turning]
Interviewer: But then I’ve got the, I’ve got the 9 Squadron Station Record Book as well.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Which gives you, tells you where they were going and how many planes were there and I presume they have it. So we —
HC: [unclear]
Interviewer: So, you, sorry go on. Go on.
HC: Carry on.
Interviewer: Sorry, that’s a picture I took.
HC: It should have an aerial thing of the Mailly camp actually. The photograph of the —
Interviewer: Which is the camp?
HC: Oh, all over. The whole lot.
Interviewer: Part of the camp here.
HC: Just part of the camp. Yeah.
Interviewer: The camp.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So what happened when you got to the [pause] so just when the others were, all the others died.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: They all, they all died. So there was you and Porteous.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you, did you land together you and Porteous?
HC: I never saw him again in my life.
Interviewer: You still haven’t seen him.
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: Haven’t seen him since.
HC: No.
Interviewer: What happened to you then? You obviously hit the ground in the parachute. Whereabouts were you? Were you near the camp at all?
HC: As it turned out I was very close. Yeah. About five ten miles or so. Not far. I’ll let you have a copy of that in the end. I probably, it tells you better than I can.
[pause]
Interviewer: Is this the, you were saying that friend of yours —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] So —
[pause]
Interviewer: So it came in. Your French sheet came in then did it.
HC: Oh, aye. Nearly.
Interviewer: I was going to say. And you, well you just changed your clothes [unclear] some underclothing.
HC: I eventually I finished up with no RAF clothing but first off I was very reluctant to part with anything. My actual battledress, the young fella that got that after the war he used to wear it for his Sunday best.
Interviewer: Did he?
HC: Yeah. A Frenchman.
Interviewer: A Frenchman this was.
HC: Yeah. This was.
Interviewer: So you were met by the Underground then were you?
HC: Well, I think it tells you later on down there doesn’t it?
Interviewer: Well, I was thinking [unclear]
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was it worrying then when you, when you were in France?
HC: Yes. It was for the first day or two. Yeah. Very worrying. Yeah. But the first night I, when I landed I landed in a little space between two woods. A little field. I just sat, you know. Laid there for a few minutes pulling myself together, got rid of the parachute and started walking in a southerly direction. I had no idea where I was but I just, I knew I had that little compass. I just headed south and eventually I landed up at this village.
Interviewer: They took you in, did they?
HC: Well, yeah. But they got me in touch with the French Underground anyhow.
Interviewer: And then what? They, they took you over then did they?
HC: Yeah. We lived in woods then.
Interviewer: What? Just in the open?
HC: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we dug like big dug outs. Chopped trees down and laid them across the top. Then put straw on top. Soil on top of that. And that’s how most of the French Underground people lived.
Interviewer: They actually lived there.
HC: Oh yeah. A lot of them you see were [pause] a lot of the French underground were men that had been to Germany on forced labour and when they came back, they were allowed to come back on leave occasionally. Well, when they came back rather than go back to Germany they just absconded and joined the Underground.
Interviewer: And were you the only one then?
HC: There was an American with us. And we were the only two for a long long while until just before [pause] well, just before we got liberated and then we picked a few more up.
Interviewer: Where, whereabouts was it then? Whereabouts in France were you?
HC: It’s near Chalons. Chalon [sur ] in Bernier. You know, where Bernier Champagne comes from. That area.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you were going south were you.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Going south actually. A bit further.
HC: Yeah. It was just drummed into you that much that you, the idea was to get to Spain you see. Head south.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: I don’t suppose you know there was talk about one guy actually getting back to Bardney from Spain.
Interviewer: Yeah. I believe there was. Yeah.
HC: You don’t know who.
Interviewer: No.
HC: Anything about that.
HC: I’ve read quite a lot of these books about evasion and this, that and the other but there was several of them did it. Made it like.
Interviewer: So you were there and you just stayed there and you [pause] What did they do like? You lived off the land.
HC: Well, [unclear] quite well, yeah. People used to bring us food and things like that.
Interviewer: So the locals knew you were there.
HC: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: And these Underground were they going out and also disrupting things —
HC: Yeah. Also, there were two raids down there that we went on.
Interviewer: You went as well did you?
HC: Yeah. On several of them. Yeah.
Interviewer: You couldn’t speak any French though.
HC: Just school, schoolboy French. That was all. We made out though.
[pause]
Interviewer: And then when you, so obviously after D-day then when they got you were liberated —
HC: About September time wasn’t it? Quite a [pause] They seemed to be a long time getting to us.
Interviewer: Did they know you were there then? Had they got told?
HC: Yeah. Because I had to, the man in charge of that particular area of the Maquis he interviewed me like and I had to draw a sketch of my billet at Bardney. Put in my bedspace in relation to the others and put any, and could I remember any items that I’d left around there you know obviously. Well, you see when you think about it nobody else could answer that question.
Interviewer: Yeah. How could they?
HC: They had to be sure.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: Until they were absolutely sure they watched me like a hawk. [unclear] I was never let out of their sight.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: And when, when I first met the French Underground, the French people, the French Underground people I was put in a farm kitchen and there were, I think there must have been someone there who could speak reasonably English and they were talking to me about this, that and the other. And all at once this American spoke up and he’d never said a word until they’d finished talking like. You see, if they’d got a wrong ‘un amongst that French Underground it would have been disastrous.
Interviewer: So you’ve, you basically go down there then. You just stayed there and you went on some raids with them.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Were there many Germans around?
HC: Oh yeah. One day I went to have a look at the crashed aircraft you know after they’d taken the guard off on the way to the wall I went to have a look where it crashed and we looked, had a good look around and everything and then that was when they said, ‘View Bosch?’ So, we just walked across another field and sat on the edge of the road and watched the German convoys going past.
Interviewer: Yeah?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was the plane smashed up then or something?
HC: Yeah. I’ve got some photographs of the aircraft.
Interviewer: What, of the actual plane?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Have you?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Is there any chance I can photograph them for the computer?
HC: [unclear]
Interviewer: Oh lovely.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So did the bombs go off?
HC: Must have done.
Interviewer: Did they explode?
HC: I think when you see a photograph you’ll realise that they must have done. That’s why I was sure when that Cook fella wrote to me I was absolutely certain. The remains were scattered over a couple of fields or more. There wasn’t one, there wasn’t a big piece anywhere.
Interviewer: But that could, that could well be because I’ve been talking to Jim Brookbank who was, he was, he’s the chairman of 9 Squadron Association. He was a bomb aimer and I was asking him about the bombs because another bit of research I’m doing is about a guy he’s, no [pause] a friend’s father he, they got shot down and they had a Tallboy on. I said to him, I said, ‘With a Tallboy, if you crashed with a Tallboy on board would it explode?’ He said it was unlikely unless the pin was out. He said the only ones that he was aware of that would go up even if you looked at them wrong was a Cookie. He said he only had to look at that wrong and he never landed with them on.
HC: We always jettisoned them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: We didn’t bring that back.
Interviewer: And that’s what he, that’s what he was saying. That’s what it may be been. His cookie. So you went, you went to have a look at the plane and presumably these [pause] no. That’s in France is it?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: So these people had been buried in France.
HC: Yeah. I’ve got some photographs of their grave. I’ve got some details of the funeral as well.
Interviewer: Have you?
HC: Oh no. No. I never saw the graves until after we got liberated.
Interviewer: Well, then you went [pause] well you came, did you come back here?
HC: No. No. After we had been liberated there was a day or two we didn’t know if we’d been liberated or not. It was a bit dodgy. You could go up, I was living and working at a farm at one bit and also living in woods like but you could go out and you’d see a German tank going down the road like that and within a few minutes an American tank would go the other way and you know you couldn’t understand how they’d missed one another. Things like that. It was unbelievable but what, what we did do, at that time I think we picked up several more Americans. Three or four more Americans, certainly another two Englishmen, another Canadian, you know. Quite a gang of us. But that American and myself we’d been together for three months and it was probably wrong of us I don’t know but we had an understanding that if anything happened we two were going to stick together regardless of later comers. We’d survived that long we thought well you know we know how we think between our two selves and we’ll stick together, and we did. We always stuck together.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And then so when you were liberated you went to, you found out about where these graves were and everything.
HC: Well, when we were liberated the American and myself they lent us two bicycles and he went back to see some of the people that he’d lived with because he lived in a house for so long until it got too dangerous and he wanted to go back and we finished up going to the church and finding these graves.
Interviewer: Then presumably they’d just be ordinary dug graves with no [unclear] just a simple cross on it.
HC: When we went there was nothing. Just a big area and a mound and there was the propeller. A propeller blade about eighteen inches long just laid on it with no markings at all on it.
Interviewer: You just knew it was a Lancaster.
HC: And so I remember I scratched on this propeller PO Anderson and crew because I didn’t know, you know, but I thought it must be. Most of them must be there. But now there is two proper, there are two headstones there now. One for the pilot, Jim because his was the only body that was a body and the other headstone has all their names on.
Interviewer: And have you been back since?
HC: Yes. I went back on the fiftieth anniversary.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: We were invited back by the [pause] they had a very big do at Mailly camp the French people did and we got invited back to that.
Interviewer: What yourself? [how did they get in touch with you then? Did the Underground –
HC: There is actually a Mailly Association as well combined of English and French people you see.
Interviewer: And you joined it.
HC: And it was this, it was this [Alison] Johnson that got in touch with me about it and asked me if I’d like to go. So, I said I would and it was all fixed up and they were going just for a short visit of two or three days you see. Well, then the niece of our pilot, I’d been in touch with her or she’d been in touch with me rather and she thought we ought to go for longer than that. So I said fair enough so we went for a week actually and the big ceremony was at the, on the Saturday night you see. I went by train because I was [unclear] and met her there and [unclear] put on for us like.
Interviewer: So you had another look at the graves.
HC: Oh yeah. We went and they had a little service there when we were there like again.
Interviewer: You didn’t pick up a few pieces of your plane when you were there?
HC: Yes. I’ve got a bit.
Interviewer: Yeah? What did you get?
HC: I got a very small piece when I was there when I, originally, but since then Mrs Ineson, that’s the niece of the pilot, I was at their house one day and she brought out a cardboard box. She said, ‘Can you do anything with this? Is it any good to you?’ She brought it out and she said, ‘It’s a part of an aeroplane.’ I said, ‘I know. Yeah.’ Somebody in the village had given her it and it was the fan and booster part of one of the turbos like, you know.
Interviewer: Was it? Yeah.
HC: Yeah. I briefly chopped it up quite a bit and made, I made a few things for her. Keyrings and things like that. I made her a holder for keeping the medal cast for this Mailly thing. I made her a holder for that out of it. Things like that.
Interviewer: That was nice wasn’t it? And then when you went and had a look at those and then they, did they fly you back or —
HC: Yeah. We came back to Paris and we flew back from Paris.
Interviewer: And where did you go to then? Did you come back to Bardney ever again?
HC: No. I made a social visit back after that but no.
Interviewer: So you were back before the end of the war.
HC: Oh aye. Yeah.
Interviewer: Back in, you didn’t do any more flying or any more gunnery?
HC: No. I don’t think anybody did that had been, you know done that. No.
Interviewer: No. And then what station did you finish up in?
HC: Topcliffe.
Interviewer: [unclear] was that Lancasters as well?
HC: No. It was Flying Training Command.
Interviewer: And then you came back to Bardney again three weeks ago.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Lovely. Smashing. [pause] Stop that a minute and I’ll get some —
[recording paused]
HC: I never put the parachute in the parachute holding place because I was pretty short and I had a job to reach it and I used to wire it down on that big step, just on that step so that it were there. So I grabbed hold of it and out I went.
Interviewer: So, what your, had your intercom gone?
HC: Oh yeah. Yeah. Everything was [unclear]
Interviewer: What about because fairly close to the navigator, the wireless, well the wireless operator.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was he dead then?
HC: I don’t know. No idea. I wondered actually if the wireless operator had opened the door. [Are you making some tea?] I wondered whether the wireless operator had gone back to the rear gunner and opened the door for them on the way because they were very big fellows them two.
Interviewer: But there was only, they didn’t get out.
HC: No. No.
Interviewer: They just [stayed]
[recording interrupted]
HC: Sorted all this out. Question. Was it all Number 1 and 5 Group raid? There were three hundred and forty six Lancasters and things like that because I know all about it. And then he says there were forty two Lancasters like. Question — was the Panzer Division really at the target? And it goes on and it tells you that they were. Then he goes on here, question again, was the attack really a success? You see and he sort of was —
Interviewer: He was doubting whether it was justified was he?
HC: No. He was trying to get a true picture of that raid. As authentic as he could possibly get. He was going to produce, or he was going to produce a book solely on the raid on Mailly because it was the second worst disaster for the RAF that particular night. You know, in comparison to the number of aircraft and losses. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] I think you said fifteen or fourteen came back was it?
HC: Yeah. There was fifteen [unclear] Fifteen out of two hundred and fifty. Something like that.
Interviewer: I don’t know. I can have a look at the Bomber Command book on that. Bardney. Bardney sent fifteen aircraft and you were the only ones that was —
HC: This was out of [pause] October ’86, “Aviation News” and they put on there to tell you that they were flying at five thousand feet. I thought I’d seen it somewhere.
[pause]
Interviewer: Six aircrew killed. That Porteous, he was killed?
HC: No. That’s a mistake. That’s why, that’s why that Mrs Ineson didn’t bother to look for me until about two or three years since. She thought he was the only one surviving.
Interviewer: And one prisoner. [unclear]
HC: He got taken prisoner. Yeah.
[pause]
Interviewer: We’ve got you down here.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: A bit of a strange feeling you know when you see yourself down —
HC: [laughs] yeah. HC: You realise that the raid was led by Cheshire don’t you? Group Captain Cheshire.
Interviewer: No. I didn’t to be quite honest. To be quite honest until what I do is I research for 9 Squadron Association [unclear] just at Bardney and a lot of the time just took on to finding people and where they went, what raids they went on etcetera as far as the actual raids are concerned. You know, that sort of research.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: I didn’t, I didn’t know Cheshire was in charge. But I didn’t [unclear]
HC: [unclear] He was the main [pause] obviously he was in a Mosquito like.
Interviewer: Yeah. Was he a Pathfinder at that time then or was the leader?
HC: Well, he was a Pathfinder. Well, he actually led that raid. You see, they got very brave you see. They used to fly around and stop there and issue instructions you know in case things went wrong.
Interviewer: And were they, were the Pathfinders always in Mosquitoes then?
HC: Not always but very often. Yeah. Because they could get there and get out of it couldn’t they?
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: We were very unlucky because we were on the first run into that target you know. We should have been able to get in and away before things started to happen. Had there not been a mess up we would have been got away with it.
Interviewer: How long were you over the target then do you think? [unclear]
HC: Oh, it seemed a devil of a long while but I don’t know really. I saw, I saw about fifteen other planes go down before we went down. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s partly in that account of mine where I think Porteous, I think he suggested that we went in to bomb. If we hadn’t got, I mean, I think having got the very large bomb, we wouldn’t go because we hadn’t had the instructions, the final instructions. [unclear] to go.
Interviewer: When you saw all those planes going down what do you do? Did you look for parachutes coming? Did you see parachutes.
HC: No. No. Never saw anything. No. No.
Interviewer: Did they just fall out the sky then? Did they explode?
HC: Well, it was hard to tell because they used to fire up Scarecrows as well you know. Out of ack ack. They used to fire these things up something [pause] they used to burst and make it look as if it was a plane.
Interviewer: [pause] I didn’t know. What was that —
HC: Yeah. I think they were call them Scarecrows. They used to fire them up and they used to burst.
Interviewer: They shot —
HC: Yeah, and they gave the impression that it was an aircraft.
Interviewer: An aircraft on fire or —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. As if they’d hit one.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Just to demoralise you.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] As I say, you know there’s not many people around like [unclear]
HC: No. I wasn’t very interested at all really. But when this Mrs Ineson found out, she found out from a Frenchman actually that I was still alive because he told her that there was definitely two Englishmen, not two, and Englishman lived with them you see. She sort of went deeper into it and found me.
Interviewer: That was the, that was the [unclear]
HC: This is for those who don’t read French [laughs]
Interviewer: Actually our village is twinned with a French [unclear]
HC: Oh.
Interviewer: And it’s called, if I remember [pause] [unclear]
HC: Oh, right.
Interviewer: Just before, about four miles this side north of [unclear]
HC: Oh.
Interviewer: It used to go straight through.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: They’ve put a bypass around it.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: But the guy who comes over, who’s was the interpreter, his father was a Resistance fighter.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: And he was a [unclear] this chap, Claude, he used to be the runner for them.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] he said when the Germans got started it was [unclear] wide open and there was nothing [unclear]
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: He’s told me a bit about it.
HC: Theres a bit of information about the actual raid I think isn’t it? [pause] This was produced at the, at the fiftieth anniversary like. These ones. You just picked them up as you went through.
Interviewer: So this was the one and only raid on that camp?
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: They didn’t do anything more. Was it a success then?
HC: Well —
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: The French people seemed to think it was. They were very very proud of RAF people altogether. More than our own people are I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. You say you’ve got some photos.
HC: Yes. I have. Yeah.
[pause]
HC: Here firing guns. Someplace [pause]
Interviewer: I have heard about it. I watch Discovery a lot on telly and it’s got there’s a lot of wartime stuff on now.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
I can’t seem to find it. It might have been —
Interviewer: [unclear] Can I take photographs of those as well?
HC: Aye.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: But this, but this is, another man that wrote to me. A Mr Ackroyd. He was a flight engineer on a Halifax that got shot down on that raid. They didn’t carry bombs. They were just loaded up with electronic equipment to distract and counter German radar instructions. This is his actual his account of the raid and everything.
Interviewer: Was that a regular thing on a raid?
HC: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Send in a Halifax to fool the Germans. An extra, they used to carry an extra operator like a radio man. They just used to have a listen to them and confuse the German, German night fighters and ground controls and everything. And he worked with the same sort of thing. All that. How it all happened and everything.
[recording paused]
HC: We’d got a job on that night. He left it. The same as we did the railway and it had to be done then because a lot of the railways were being blown up at the same time you see.
Interviewer: So they would just get a message and to go and —
HC: Yeah. We used to, yeah we used to listen to, they used to listen rather to English broadcasts of these messages that wouldn’t mean anything to anybody except them like.
Interviewer: The [unclear]
HC: Put, they put one or two charges low down on the ground. I did it because I was small. The American reached as high as he could the other side. Those two went off first because if you blew up, blew all four legs together just jump and it would stand up. You had to make it tip.
Interviewer: And that carried like the —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Connector. Yeah. Not quite, not quite what these [unclear] at thirty thousand volts the first lot of pylons that had come out. Not the really big ones that we get now.
Interviewer: Yeah. So what distance were you from Mailly camp then?
HC: Well, I should think about, oh about [pause] oh an hour’s walk or something like that.
Interviewer: Always walk.
HC: Oh, always walking. Yeah.
Interviewer: At night.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: What other places would you see pylons.
HC: If we saw pylons we did a small railway line at a place called [unclear] I think it is. It’s in there, and we blew up where the lines went across one line into another line you see. We blew all that lot up. Maximum effect. But I think [unclear] took them to repair them and put it back up.
Interviewer: You know after [pause] did you go out most nights?
HC: No. No. No. Not very often but I think the actual date. The other night, the first thing we ever went on was a bit ridiculous really. We went and put a French flag and a notice on the War Memorial in, in [unclear] a little place probably a bit bigger than Bardney and stuck this thing up like. As I remember it said, I wrote the thing out, the notice up and it said, “The days of Liberation are at hand.’ And you know telling them to keep their pecker up and this, that and the other.
Interviewer: Was that occupied by the Germans then?
HC: Oh yeah. Yeah. It made quite a stir. There was nobody arrested but it caused quite a stir the next morning of German —
Interviewer: Did you hear about any French being shot for being in the Resistance or anything?
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] Did they come looking for you?
HC: Yeah. The local parson.
Interviewer: Really?
HC: This man here. Have I got a better photo? I have to get them blown up this one. This is really [pause] you probably can’t see [unclear] you can obviously see that in the dark.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: He was the local vicar.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HC: They shot him because he was carrying a gun there. He carried a colt 55 under his cassock and they shot him when he come out of Sunday School. He was taking Sunday School in church and he could see these German troops coming into the churchyard so he run out and run down through the churchyard and across the field and they shot him just before he crossed a little, a little dyke.
Interviewer: And was this just the ordinary Germans or was this like the SS?
HC: No. well, I don’t know really. I couldn’t tell you.
Interviewer: Who are these. Is this a different camp to that one?
HC: This was in Trécon Woods. [unclear] camp at Trécon Woods.
Interviewer: What’s [unclear] camp mean? Is that just —
HC: Well, it’s just a group. it means a group. you know, a little group and it might mean camp.
Interviewer: And where is this?
HC: At Trécon. T R E C O N.
Interviewer: Trécon.
HC: Trécon Woods. There’s a village called Trécon.
Interviewer: Ok. That’s when is this one like. I take it —
HC: That would be about the end of June, about the beginning of May. Shortly after I got there.
Interviewer: So this was your first one then.
HC: Yeah.
[pause]
Interviewer: Are you in this one?
HC: Yeah. I’m the one with the little [unclear] somewhere. There look.
Interviewer: That one.
HC: Yes. I wish I had brought [unclear]
Interviewer: One, two, three, four —
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: In from the right.
HC: Mrs Ineson sent me one of those that she’d had blown up to about a foot, a foot square but it’s come out very good. There weren’t many of those people left actually when I went back to France two years since.
Interviewer: Wasn’t there?
HC: No. I met one, four of them I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. So [pause] [unclear] what about any, was there any other jaunts that you went on?
HC: No. Not really.
Interviewer: I suppose you really enjoyed it did you?
HC: Yeah. You see when they actually got to close in fighting they used to go out to you know hand to hand jobs and like they wouldn’t take us with them then.
Interviewer: It was the French that would be captured.
HC: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. You went on sabotage.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you ever meet any [unclear]
HC: When I was working at this farm we lived in [unclear] about just a couple of fields from this farm and it was harvest time you see so that American and myself used to stack corn on the farm and everything. Went up one morning. I went to one back door of the farmhouse, down the passageway, passageway straight through. Through the side door that led up into the kitchen. I opened the door and was going to go through and there was a German buying eggs and he was just stood there waiting in front of him so I just spoke to them and went into the kitchen.
Interviewer: Were you actually speaking in French or anything like that?
HC: Yeah. Yeah. Just gave them a mumbled, ‘Bonjour,’ like. Yeah. And I was led to believe that they came once too often to that. They [unclear] once and didn’t come back. [laughs] They were very callous these French. I suppose you can understand it can’t you?
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: They did them when they got when they were sure they were going to be taken over [unclear] yeah.
Interviewer: Did you, did the underground get it back to your parents that you were alive?
HC: No. No way.
Interviewer: So they would get a letter saying that you were the usual —
HC: The usual. A cable. Yeah. Missing in action. I think I’ve got copies of them in there. Well, it was just, “missing.” I don’t think it was ever presumed. It was missing all the time.
Interviewer: Right. So they’d get presumably about September time they would get a missive would go back that you were alive.
HC: I don’t think my mother got to know until [pause] I don’t think she got to know until a day or two days before I arrived home. No.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HC: South [unclear] Yeah.
Ok. Right. Thank you.
Collection
Citation
Roger Audis, “Interview with Henry Chappell,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed April 19, 2026, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/52897.