Interview with Hugh Brewer
Title
Interview with Hugh Brewer
Description
Hugh Brewer flew operations as a bomb aimer with 9 Squadron from RAF Bardney.
Creator
Date
2004-11-16
Temporal Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:52:24 audio recording
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
ABrewerH041116-0004, ABrewerH041116-0001, ABrewerH041116-0002, ABrewerH041116-0003
Transcription
Interviewer: Recording with Hugh Brewer on Tuesday the 16th of November 2004. Hugh’s been up for the Remembrance Sunday Service. He, he was a bomb aimer based at Bardney in 1943 and he was flying with Robinson in the crew. So, it’s now over to, over to Hugh.
HB: Right. Thank you. I suppose I’d better start off with OTU at Cottesmore where I crewed up with Keith Robinson. Previously before training in Canada I was flying in America, in Florida and I was taken off the flying course for low flying and various other things. I was sick for a week. I crewed up with Keith because I knew him when he was on the same course in, in America in ’42 in [unclear] So I knew if he’d got through that course he couldn’t be a better pilot so I crewed up with him at Cottesmore. We picked up a navigator called Gosling and we picked our rear gunner. We all sort of got together. We were all NCOs at the same time and we went, go back a bit, at Swinderby where we went on the Manchesters. [unclear] really. We went out and we came back on four engines.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. But I came back on one engine [unclear] landing. While out there on one of these trips I think we converted to Lancs by then at Swinderby and, but while on one of the trips Gosling, the navigator got completely lost. Hopelessly lost. He panicked and we eventually had to call Darkie to find our way back which we did. The CO didn’t like it. The CO didn’t like you calling Darkie because it was [quite secret] The skipper had gone to see the CO this morning. We then got rid of Gosling. We got another navigator because he kept panicking in the air which wasn’t much good so we got a new navigator.
Interviewer: So you got your response from Darkie did you?
HB: Yes. Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Do you know what it was?
HB: No idea.
Interviewer: No.
HB: The wireless op did all that.
Interviewer: So it would just give you a bearing and —
HB: Yeah. A bearing to come back. Get back to base. But no, it was fine that way and we knew that navigator was fine and we were in luck. So we finished at Swinderby. Went on to 9 Squadron in May ’43 and started operations. We did a bit of touring around the place, finding the area. Looking at the area.
Interviewer: I do notice in your logbook Hugh that you did an operation rather —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: An OT, OTU.
HB: Yeah, that’s right.
Interviewer: In a different squadron.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: I understood it was just the pilots who did like a second dickie trip but you mention that bomb aimers —
HB: No. Bomb aimers and navigators and pilots went in those days for one trip to see. Get experience of going on operations.
Interviewer: All with different crews.
HB: All with different crews. Yes. Which, which was a great mistake in a way because there was a one in three chance that you would lose your own crew and they stopped doing it. I think after a while they would only send the pilots. Maybe navigators. I’m not sure. But certainly they didn’t send bomb aimers after. Well, I went with [unclear] with 467 Australian squadron. [unclear] the last one was shot down later on, you know. Yeah. He was killed later on. About two raids later. We went to Pilsen. You never forget the first trip do you? When we were getting near the target the whole town was surrounded by searchlights you know. So, ok then [Alan] sure, bloody hell, surely not. He said when you get there sometimes you know it looks bad from the distance but when you get near its [unclear] between. So it was great. No, it was a good journey. A good trip. I went straight down.
Interviewer: So you were actually sat in the —
HB: Yeah. In the turret in the front.
Interviewer: In the turret.
HB: The front turret. Yeah. The seats [let down?] where the bomb aimer works. I stood on the seat where he rested.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: But then they had the Mark 14 bombsight [unclear] Before they had the course setting old bombsight they’d had for years. But the Mark 14 was good except you were restricted with space because you had this great computer on the left-hand side which worked all the sightings out. You put them all in and the wind velocity and things in on the computer. It worked it out on the side. But it was good because the bombsight was gyroscopically controlled so it was always flat on the ground whereas before [unclear] through the bombsight. This one made you plan. The bombsight was level with the road all the time. So you could judge coming in much better.
Interviewer: Right. Which was on the Mark 1.
HB: On the Mark 14.
Interviewer: Which —
HB: Which all crews had by then. The Mark 14 bombsight.
Interviewer: Right. So you were on that before you just made sure you [unclear]
HB: That was a course setting at CSPS with wires going up the front. That was only in training really.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: We had, we had a Mark 14 at Swinderby. One of these.
Interviewer: You got on alright with the Mark 14.
HB: Yes. Fine. Yeah. Much better. Much easier. Much better because you could turn in. You got the ground and all the time you were turning on the [boulter] which you didn’t have before.
Interviewer: Yes.
HB: [unclear] and that’s good. But we had some good trips, good flights, had no real damage apart from holes in the aeroplane which you could get anywhere. When the flak came near you could smell it. You could feel it, see it and smell it but we had [unclear]. We saw fighters on three occasions and avoided them. I think the rear gunner fired on one one time. That was it.
Interviewer: Right. So you flew into Bardney. How did you actually get to Bardney? Did you fly to Bardney or come on the —
HB: No. Came on transport.
Interviewer: Transport. Right.
HB: From Swinderby. We all came together of course and we picked up the two more trades. We picked up two more at Swinderby didn’t we? The mid-upper gunner and the flight engineer.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Swinderby. Got on well together. We used to do everything together as NCOs. We’d fly together, we’d eat together. Sleep in the same hut.
Interviewer: [unclear] there was all seven of you in one.
HB: Yeah. Seven in one. They had two crews in one hut normally.
Interviewer: So there was fourteen.
HB: Fourteen in hut. Yeah.
Interviewer: In a hut.
HB: Two crews in a hut.
Interviewer: [unclear] the crew you shared with.
HB: No. No idea. But often you’d see people in taking the belongings away when a crew didn’t come back. Which was sad but yeah we slept in the same hut together. It was fun. Got our working done. As I say we did everything together. Some of the flights when we had, we’d go down to our flights. I think the flight engineer was missing on three. On three occasions. We had a spare flight engineer. That was Taffy [pause] what was his surname?
Interviewer: Not to worry.
HB: Anyway, it might come to me. He was quite nice. He took, he took Tony’s place, the flight engineer’s place. I think two trips he went on later on.
Interviewer: Yes.
HB: But good trips. We did our thirty. Troubles of course. Two to Italy were good easy trips.
Interviewer: When you did the Italy trips did you then go out to North Africa?
HB: No. We came back.
Interviewer: You came back.
HB: Yeah. We came back. It was about a ten hour trip that was. Nine hours something. We did our length of time there. You’d do it now in about an hour and a quarter.
Interviewer: Did you do any of the low flying?
HB: No.
Interviewer: At all?
HB: Only one low flying I did was dropping mines in the Baltic. We’d fly [unclear] on a time and distance and you record where you drop your mines so they can plot where they are when you get there. Very good one because you’re low level. Go down to fifty feet. Of course, you start [unclear] which you’d know about it. You’d get light flak. You can’t avoid it. On those times, on those trips of course you did this was did the straight and level and you were thinking all the time up there. Telling him. I was working with the pilot.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And the plane was in control.
Interviewer: What, what did the mines look like?
HB: They were long cylindricals. Just cylindrical objects underneath. I think they came five. Four or five I think.
Interviewer: So there would be what? Like four or five foot long.
HB: Yeah. About five foot long. Yeah. About, I suppose about eighteen inches around. Eighteen inches around.
Interviewer: So it was just like a drum.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: With a square. In a square.
HB: Yeah. In a square. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: With a parachute attached when it dropped. They were all fused. The bombs weren’t unless you fused it so the parachute floated down into the sea.
Interviewer: And that might have been from twenty foot.
HB: About twenty foot. Yeah. Quite low.
Interviewer: And when that [unclear] near the entrances.
HB: Yeah, the harbour.
Interviewer: In the harbour.
HB: Yeah, Gdnya harbour we dropped them.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: We dropped them in Gdynia. We started off not on Gdynia itself, it was too well defended but away from Gdynia so it came in, we flew out over the harbour and dropped them. So that shipping coming in. As far as we knew they worked ok. We did the first trip to Hamburg when we were the first to drop Window on that firebomb but it was a good trip because the fighters didn’t worry me, the flak didn’t worry me because the Windows confused all the radar. So that was [unclear]
Interviewer: Whose job was it to put the Window down?
HB: I did that through the bomb bay. Through the bomb bay.
Interviewer: Oh, through the bomb bay.
HB: Right. The bomb bay. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. So the [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. I don’t know. No, I think we both did that. I think I put some through the nose and the [unclear] put some through the flare chute. But we certainly dropped them. It certainly confused the radar [pause] And of course the air crew would put things in the bomb doors like bricks [unclear] and the ground crew might put in to throw something before we set off [unclear]
Interviewer: Always set off —
HB: Empty bottles.
Interviewer: You mentioned about putting empty bottles in there because [unclear].
HB: Yeah. We used empty bottles sometimes. I dropped them out through the front. Yes. Through the front door. There was a little recess underneath, under the bombing window which was open.
Interviewer: You said they would go off in a screaming mode.
HB: Yes. they would make quite a noise going down. You’d catch some of the [unclear] once or twice.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: When they weren’t flying over friendly territory drop the bottles.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I think —
Interviewer: Sorry, go on.
HB: No. A couple of occasions we came back on three engines. One time we went to Leipzig we lost two on the way out. One to flak and the second one was icing. We re-started the iced one. Feathered that and restarted it so we managed to come back on three engines [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. So when you were getting ready you’d see the Battle Order presumably in the sergeant’s —
HB: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Would that be in the Sergeant’s Mess then where you would see it?
HB: Yes. That’s right. No, it would be in the, yeah in the, the battle order in the sergeant’s mess. In the messes.
Interviewer: So you would go there every —
HB: Yeah. You would go.
Interviewer: Every morning [unclear]
HB: To see who was on.
Interviewer: To see who was on.
HB: [unclear] obviously if you were on what was the stage after that?
HB: Well, you would have a night flying practice. Some night flying from [unclear] and you’d go, you’d go to the briefing at certain times and you’d be given the final briefing. From the briefing at that time all the doors would be closed. We wouldn’t know the target until then.
Interviewer: This was all the crew or —
HB: Oh no. The whole crew.
Interviewer: The whole crew.
HB: Yeah. Before, before the main brief, no after the main briefing you used to go to our different groups. [unclear] and any final points.
Interviewer: And this was all on the aircrew was it?
HB: All on the aircrew. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: In the crew room. Yes. In the briefing room. Yes.
Interviewer: Right. So, so you go in the briefing room, all the doors are closed and then what? Like was there like a curtain that was pulled back.
HB: Yeah. The CO came in and pulled the curtain and showed the target.
Interviewer: That was the CO of the —
HB: Yeah. CO of the station.
Interviewer: Of 9 Squadron.
HB: 9 Squadron.
Interviewer: Or Bardney Station?
HB: No. The CO of the flying. The flying would come in. Yeah. And they’d draw the curtain back and you’d see the target and there would be a few oohs and ahhs as to where the target was. You know. [unclear] sometimes. Wow.
Interviewer: Yes.
HB: Depending on the target.
Interviewer: And presumably on that [unclear] the route to get there.
HB: Yes. Yeah. The route was laid out there. Where to go. Yes. And they would talk about the marker flares. Where they would be. Where the PFF would drop the marker flares enroute. If it was a long trip [unclear] enroute [unclear]
Interviewer: That would be done and then [pause] So the briefing, the main briefing would take how long?
HB: Oh depending. You know about half an hour I suppose. Half an hour.
Interviewer: And so looking —
HB: Yeah. You would get the Met person come up and he would tell you. The intelligence person would come up. They would all come up to give their little spiel. The CO would do the routing. Yeah. You went back to your groups, bombing, bombing groups to get target maps, [conversion] maps of the targets you could see close up. That’s when you could see the ground. If you were in the first wave, unless if you were in the first wave you didn’t have much chance of seeing the ground. It’s ablaze. Flames and the smoke. But in the first wave you can. When you are in the second or following waves you don’t. All you see are the fires and the markers going down via the [unclear]
Interviewer: So once the, once the first wave coming in then they would be marking the target again.
HB: Yeah. Marking all the time.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah marking.
Interviewer: And this actually, was that in Mosquitoes or was it in Lancs?
HB: I think the Lancs were used to as well as Mosquitoes because we also had a master of ceremonies sometimes circling the target telling you which flares to bomb.
Interviewer: Oh were there.
HB: We had about four of those just in case one was shot down but number two took over and on occasion you heard, ‘This is number two taking over.’ But they were directing which flares to bomb because the Germans on the ground would also light flares to try and pull you away from the target. They’d light the coloured flares on the ground and you weren’t to know which ones were the right ones. So the master bomber would tell you which PFF flares to bomb. I think on a few occasions we saw them around and Cologne was a good one because we were one of the few waves flying [unclear] You could see [unclear] and that below. You could see everything. So when you could see they [unclear] for you. If you can’t see it they would point out for you because you couldn’t even see the targets. All you were doing was bombing the flares.
Interviewer: So to get your aiming point you really needed wind finding aircraft as well would you?
HB: Yeah. Not necessarily. You’ve got the wind. Yeah. You were told the wind anyway and you said —
Interviewer: Yeah but in some cases I’ve seen where on some operations 9 Squadron often sent more aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: As wind finders.
HB: Yeah. Beforehand. Yes, that’s right. Yeah. But we didn’t. We were given the wind before that.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: I think why some might get winds perhaps on the way if it wasn’t —
Interviewer: And you would just adjust your —
HB: Adjust your turrets.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: The computer. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: Just putting the wind speed on it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. So we, we’ve got you going to [unclear] where we were. Your briefings and things.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were saying you got, you got some instructions on rice paper.
HB: Yeah. Well, every crew had a slip of paper on which there was the colours of the day, where the beacons were. Where the beacons were coming home in case you got lost with the flashing letters and where they were and you were given them on rice paper to see if you crashed at all. Forced landing. You could swallow it, chewing. But it had all this secret information. The colours of the day were the important ones for recognition. Verey cartridges particularly had colours of the day if you were in trouble again you know. Flying out on [unclear] was always a difficult thing because the gunners would get trigger happy.
Interviewer: And where was that?
HB: Over Portsmouth or one of the Naval, any Naval, any Naval establishment. They were quite trigger happy at that part of the [unclear]
Interviewer: Whose job was it to fire the flares of the day?
HB: That was the wireless op.
Interviewer: The wireless op.
HB: Yeah. And in the early days we carried pigeons. Two pigeons. Very early on. But they stopped doing that. I didn’t see the point. If you were shot down you couldn’t really do much about it anyway but they used to send pigeons back. But I think they lost so many pigeons [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: The wireless op would get his two pigeons with his hand.
Interviewer: You don’t know where they came from do you?
HB: There was a pigeon section on Bardney.
Interviewer: Was there?
HB: So Henry told me. Henry knew. Ask Henry. He knows about it.
Interviewer: Oh right. Ok.
HB: Yeah. Henry talks about the pigeon section on there. On Bardney.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Henry. Yeah.
Interviewer: So we’ve got you got you coming here today and then after the briefing you then knew the time. Was it then you go back to —
HB: Go back to the Sergeant’s Mess and have a meal.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: And then you’d go on lorries out to dispersal.
Interviewer: So you were going to come back.
HB: Come back to the crews. Get changed.
Interviewer: The crew rooms. Get changed.
HB: Get changed, get dressed and leaving the bits behind. Identification or something. Suited you up and then you’d go out to the vans, the lorries to take you out to dispersal.
Interviewer: Right. Did you get a flask of tea or coffee?
HB: Yeah. We got a flask of tea.
Interviewer: And was that given to you?
HB: That was given us. Yes.
Interviewer: When you, when you —
HB: [unclear]
Interviewer: You got a flask. Did you get any food at all?
HB: Not really. No. We’d been given the food.
Interviewer: What about chocolate?
HB: Yeah. We got a chocolate ration. Yeah, we did. Aircrew got a ration of chocolate which you could take with you.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Not rationed. You got, I used to store mine at home to take home with me if I fancied a bit of chocolate. So I didn’t take mine. I stored it in the room.
Interviewer: So you’d got it in the room.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you got a flask of tea.
HB: Yeah. A flask. A flask of tea made.
Interviewer: For every —
HB: Yeah. Made for everyone. Yeah.
Interviewer: They did that.
HB: And some chocolate. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. So then you would go and your plane would, you would already have been out and seen [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Selected for you. You did your DIs before that. In fact, you did, you did a flight before. Twenty minutes, a quarter of an hour checking every time.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: [unclear] you were doing that.
HB: And then you’d come back and you’d go up to the aircraft in the evening and it’s all been checked. [unclear] the bombs load again. [unclear] And that was it. You’d hang around until you got the signal to go. Get in the aeroplanes and then you taxied around. You would taxi out one behind the other.
Interviewer: Yeah. Do you just, do you have a sequence where you would have to go or did you just go when you —
HB: You just go down like when you could. You’d see aircraft going and you’d follow in a line. Then [unclear] or somebody went off the peritrack and got bogged down. They got towed around and on to the line again to go in the peritrack the other way. Somebody got, one or two got bogged down. Go off the peritrack and they didn’t go. They had to go [unclear] but you used up more fuel by that time.
Interviewer: [unclear] and you used the short runway.
HB: Yeah. Once. I think once, twice we used the short runway depending on the wind direction. If the wind was that way you used the short runway. [unclear] I don’t know what it was. The long one was quite long. [unclear] I suppose. The long one. [unclear] and it was a bit dodgy because you had to run up the engines first, get full throttle before you even [unclear] You’d shoot off like a rocket and Jack’s the last one to pull the wheels up you see.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: That’s right. That’s right. It used to push you up. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Depending on the bomb load you had again. Yeah. You could often tell where you were going. How far you were going if you chatted up the ground crew to see what the petrol load was. Once you knew what the fuel load was you could estimate. If it was Ruhr trip, a Berlin trip or an Italian trip of fourteen hours. We landed away once. I think it was in Italy. We came back short of fuel [unclear]. In fact, there were two. Two aerodromes. I forget the name of the other one. There were two together with drem lights overlapping. We called up one and landed at the other one.
Interviewer: And where did they actually cross?
HB: On the coast up north. North coast. On the east coast.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Because we hadn’t got the fuel to get back home we came back to the east coast and landed. But I remember we called up one and landed at the other one. I was taking, they said we just called up. But no it was a good trip. We did, did our tour quite well.
Interviewer: I’d like to show you in your logbook you actually [unclear] come back early —
HB: I bet it was twice actually.
Interviewer: It wasn’t classed as an operation.
HB: No. No. No.
Interviewer: So what classed as an operation? Is it when —
HB: To get to the target. Drop your bombs.
Interviewer: You’d got to drop your —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Drop bombs.
HB: Yeah. Get to the target. Drop the bombs. We did this because one time one of the engines failed which rotated the hydraulics and rear turret and without the rear turret we just came back. The skipper wouldn’t go without the rear turret operating so we dropped the bombs in the North Sea. I think we did that twice. I think twice we had engine failure which wasn’t bad out of thirty really but they were very suspicious when you came back. Whether you didn’t want to do it or something. Very suspicious. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: So after you’ve, you’ve obviously taken off you get the coloured light —
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: From the little van at the side of the runway.
HB: The green. The green aldis. Yeah.
Interviewer: And so when you went along —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you also take your time [unclear] your logbook. You obviously fill your logbook in after the trip.
HB: Yes. Yeah. When you get there.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so did they actually give you a time?
HB: No. You were given a time [unclear] That was all logged by the navigator.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: The navigator logs it all.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: And he logs all you see on the way in his log. Anything he sees that’s different. See if anyone got shot down in what place. You see, you log everything you can see because you never know what information might be of use when you got back when you were debriefed.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: So you went to, took off. You did a cross country depending. The Ruhr was a short trip. You’d do a cross country and [unclear]thousand feet to get height. On a long trip like Berlin or Italy you’d climb on track and try [unclear] If it was a short trip like the Ruhr maybe do a cross country up to Scotland. That sort of thing.
Interviewer: Up to Scotland.
HB: Yeah. Well, up north to get height. Yeah. Get height. Get to [unclear] thousand feet and you set course from [Cromer?] We always used to set course from [Cromer?] As near to [unclear] as you could get.
Interviewer: And when you were taking off were you on your —
HB: No. I sat behind the main spar.
Interviewer: Sat behind it.
HB: Behind the main spar. Yes. the engineer was with the pilot but I was behind the main spar. [unclear] Same with landing really. I was behind the main spar for that. But on one occasion, I forget where we came back from I was just [unclear] in the nose and I saw this aircraft right in front of us diving. I was, ‘Dive, dive, dive.’ And of course he did it straight away and we missed him. [unclear] on the main spar. Fortunately I had moved down there [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. So when you were actually on track for leaving at night time and you can’t see anything. Navigation lights or anything like that.
HB: No. No. No. You were looking out all the time in front in fact. Seeing things that are going on there. Looking out at our aeroplanes and the first thing you see are the [unclear] You can feel the impact of the slip stream bumping up and down. [unclear] But we needed [unclear] You look out. You can feel them first bumping up and down. But we never flew straight and level. Only over England or the North Sea. Crossing the coast we started weaving. [unclear]
Interviewer: So when you were there did you come across any fighters at all?
HB: Yeah. Twice occasions. The rear gunner fired once or twice you know but they didn’t worry us. We avoided them. I think [unclear] all the time. You know, they can’t get a line on you really.
Interviewer: Did you have any time in the front turret then when you were on ops?
HB: Not really. No. No. You don’t need to. Not much, not much chance I find with [unclear] the bombs looking out most of the time.
Interviewer: So when you’d do that you would come up, you would take over and give the instructions, the directions.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: As soon as you said, ‘Bombs gone.’
HB: Well, he’d say, ‘Bombing run. Take over.’ And you’d take over and say, ‘Left. Left,’ or, ‘Right.’ And, ‘Bombs gone.’ As, ‘Bombs gone,’ you started leaving. Yeah. And then you’d get a light on the, on the box beside you telling you when the camera was going pump and you’d level up for the camera shot.
Interviewer: Do you remember how much longer it is after? After the bombs had gone.
HB: Oh, it was only about a minute I suppose which seems a long time.
Interviewer: Is the idea of that camera then being able to photograph more?
HB: Well, they’d plot where the bombs fell. Yes. Yeah. Apart from that when you had bombs no. [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. But does it actually show? Do you actually see your bombs on the —
HB: Not really. You see all the time you were flying you see aircraft bombing all around you. you’d see a burst of —
Interviewer: So how did they know where you’d —
HB: Only about —
Interviewer: Working on —
HB: Only by the time.
Interviewer: [unclear] or something like that.
HB: Only by the time that your, when your bombs dropped and when the camera goes off that time business. They [unclear] I don’t suppose its an accurate thing.
Interviewer: And they would know if you were —
HB: Within the target.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. I think on the last trip that we returned on our last trip we were turning and the camera didn’t like that much but as we had done the other trips [unclear]
Interviewer: And did you actually see your pictures afterwards?
HB: No. You saw stills from it sometimes. Yes. You could always go to the intelligence and look at the stills from the raid you’d been on. They’d got still photographs there. Yes. [unclear] more than one I think. He took three or four photographs on one so you could plot all your bombs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So then you’d be coming in. The skipper would take over and then you were back to —
HB: [unclear] hadn’t you? Then you’d get the course from the navigator.
Interviewer: To get back [unclear]
HB: You had to go through the target and then turned off afterward.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did you ever not bomb and have to go around again?
HB: Not really. We didn’t. We made sure we got it the first time. On track the first time.
Interviewer: So then you’d come back to Bardney and then at what time or what place would you start contacting Bardney?
HB: Oh, as soon as we could over, over the North Sea. As early as we could because the earlier you contact Bardney you could land.
Interviewer: You’d get your name on the list.
HB: As soon as we could get within range we’d keep calling them. Eventually we’d hear them answer. You know, the first [unclear] of the crew.
Interviewer: So did you, would you have had —
HB: Come straight in they would say.
Interviewer: Yeah. You would then be on your, this rice paper you were talking about. [unclear] I think Bardney was, was it small, ‘Small Talk’ or something like that.
HB: Yeah. ‘Small Talk.’
Interviewer: So then you would think you were safe. ‘Small Talk. Small Talk.’
HB: Yeah. ‘Z-Zebra calling.’
Interviewer: Yeah. And then —
HB: Z-Zebra calling.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And they would say, ‘Pancake,’ and you were straight in then or you were at one thousand feet at Bardney circling. You’d circle the airfield waiting for your turn.
Interviewer: And then you would just come in.
HB: Yeah. Come in.
Interviewer: You would be on radio then.
HB: Yes. They would count you by radio.
Interviewer: Call and say —
HB: They’d say Z-Zebra yeah.
Interviewer: To land.
HB: Yeah. Landing.
Interviewer: What were the lights on the runway? Were they electric lights?
HB: Yeah. They were. Yeah.
Interviewer: What, all the way down.
HB: Yeah. All the way down.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: [unclear] both sides.
Interviewer: On both sides.
HB: Yeah. Yes.
Interviewer: So you could actually see it was —
HB: You could see the runway. See it coming in. Yeah. Except when there was [unclear] Circle then. Circle and so forth until the intruders had gone and the lights would come on.
Interviewer: So the lights would come on.
HB: Yeah. They would come on. Yeah.
Interviewer: And even when you were taking off.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: The lights were on.
HB: The lights were on then.
Interviewer: So you could actually look out then.
HB: Oh yeah. They were at the side of the runway. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: It was getting dark. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And the runway lights.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And the drem lights on with everything else.
Interviewer: There was because I was landing then. I was bringing it down and brakes on and then —
HB: Yes. it was a bit hairy then but as we said any landing you walked away from was a good landing.
Interviewer: Yeah. And when you come in to land you were [unclear] with the squadron.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s true.
Interviewer: And then —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Before you got to dispersal, before you parked you opened the bomb doors in case any incendiaries [unclear] at you and blew the aircraft away. That’s why [unclear] with incendiaries dropping out that were left in the bomb bay.
Interviewer: Right. And I think you were showing over the weekend also that they, didn’t they make it where you had to be the ground crew actually.
HB: Yeah. Checking out. Checking the bomb bay first before you opened the bomb doors and switched off. Yes. that’s right. but we would open our bomb doors sometimes coming over the North Sea to make sure.
Oh right. And you would just look.
HB: Yeah. Look inside, you know [unclear]
Interviewer: So then you would meet the ground crew who were there waiting for you.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You would hand it back to them.
HB: That’s right.
Interviewer: And transfer and you would —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You would hand it back to them.
HB: That’s right.
Interviewer: You’d have a transfer and then you’d —
HB: You’d get on a lorry back to debriefing.
Interviewer: And where was the debriefing done? Was that like the briefing room?
HB: It was a special briefing room. debriefing. Yeah. That’s right. That’s where you logged. The navigator, the bomb aimer and the crew.
Interviewer: There was a cup of tea there for you.
HB: Oh yeah. A cup of tea. That’s the first thing you get. Then they go through the log with you as to what you saw, what this meant, what that meant.
Interviewer: And was this before or after you got changed out of your uniform?
HB: No. Before.
Interviewer: Before.
HB: Yeah. You did the debrief before you got back. You didn’t come back for that sort of thing.
Interviewer: And what was that? Like a quarter of an hour. Ten minutes.
HB: Yeah. About ten minutes, a quarter of an hour depending on how much you had on your log. About a quarter of an hour I suppose really.
Interviewer: And did you go anywhere else?
HB: Then you’d come back, get changed. Sometimes [unclear] you’d go straight in and have a drink at the bar if it was still open. You used to get beer sometimes. You could go and get some beer lined up when you came back.
Interviewer: At least you got [bottled] beer.
HB: [Bottled] beer. Yeah.
Interviewer: So you could put it on the mantelpiece.
HB: Yeah. Leave it in your hut or leave it somewhere. Often you would say, ‘If I don’t come back you can have my beer,’ sort of thing. You got a few free beers that way. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Where’s Joe?’ ‘Not come back.’
Interviewer: Did you ever get attached to people who were [unclear] who didn’t come back.
HB: You did. Yeah. Other bomb aimers. You see I trained with some in Canada. One there at Bardney I trained with him. I think he was killed in Italy. Yeah. He was.
Interviewer: Yeah. Do you remember any of the others? You had, I think your CO was flight commanders [Bunkow?]
HB: Yeah. [Bunkow] was the first flight commander. Very good. Very good. Come and encourage you. Come and have a look at your flight, around the flight. Or B flight [unclear] and talk with you. Yeah. Very good.
Interviewer: [unclear] he always had a little swagger stick.
HB: Yeah. He did. that’s very good. Yeah. That’s very —
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Like the army major I think.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. He did. Yeah. He carried that with him.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. And so —
HB: He was very good. Very good. Very concerned.
Interviewer: Yeah. What kind of environment [unclear]
HB: Well, that was nice. You didn’t see them that often but he would come around occasionally around to the flights when you were ok.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. On one of the flights.
Interviewer: [unclear] you thought it might be an easy one.
HB: Well, you looked at the Battle Order and if the CO was on the Battle Order you might be alright for a good trip this time. But often they’d change the Battle Order when the weather was bad or something They changed the target and then of course we were stuck with a more difficult target. You can’t blame him. His second tour. What the hell. You’d choose your own trips [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: To go.
Interviewer: Yeah. He had an all-officer crew didn’t he?
HB: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: When he was flying [unclear] was flying.
HB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. We trained from [unclear] We had U-Uncle. That was the main aeroplane except when we’d go on leave and you say, ‘Make sure you don’t bend it before we go back.’ We got leave every six weeks for a week to ten days. Another weekend.
Interviewer: [unclear] was there many days where you couldn’t —
HB: Not really. You see we did from May to October through the summer which is quite good. I mean you go up on a night flying test in shirtsleeves with a pair of pyjamas on. There were no Mae Wests. You weren’t over the sea.
Interviewer: Yeah. So [unclear] was everything you were actually, was everything done on local time?
HB: Yeah. Local time.
Interviewer: And were you bombing —
HB: That was local time.
Interviewer: Local time.
HB: Yeah. That’s right. [unclear]
Interviewer: And that was on local time because I’ve noticed —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: On some of 617s things they actually put the take-off and land on local time but the —
HB: Bombing time —
Interviewer: On sort of —
HB: [unclear] No. No. We used local time.
Interviewer: Does that seem quite —
HB: Yeah. Quite difficult.
Interviewer: Quite difficult because at that time —
HB: No.
Interviewer: There was one hour and two hour differences.
HB: We used local time. Our time on the charts.
Interviewer: So, do you remember [unclear] got people like [unclear]
HB: Yes.
Interviewer: And finished up on 617.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember any of them?
HB: No. No. I don’t remember the names or anything.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: It was a long time ago. I knew [unclear] [unclear] because he lived near me. We knew each other. He was a pilot, against the pilot’s name.
Interviewer: They’d come in —
HB: They’d come in [unclear] That’s right. [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I knew his crew quite well. Knew other bomb aimers.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: But someone I trained with in Canada.
Interviewer: Yeah and the just getting around to the [unclear] and the flight sergeant’s Mess and the like.
HB: Yes.
Interviewer: [unclear] were mostly tin.
HB: Mostly tin. Yes.
Interviewer: Tin plate.
HB: Yeah. Mostly tin [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: As the huts were.
Interviewer: As the huts were.
HB: As the huts were. yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember what were you on after [unclear] He was actually on the communal side.
HB: Oh yes. Yeah. On the communal side. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: It wasn’t far from the Sergeant’s Mess I don’t think really. [unclear] And of course as [unclear] was commissioned. They commissioned all the pilots and he was commissioned after I think about three months. A couple of months. He still came to the Mess with me [unclear] sometimes. We could go in there. He used to buy me a drink in the Sergeant’s Mess. Yeah. He was a flight sergeant Yeah, as I say I knew him in America. Florida. He was on the same flying course and he could pass that course and became a pilot you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: So I crewed up with him. In fact [unclear] I don’t think —
Interviewer: And was there ever any of the special bombs or any other things that you were —
HB: No. We carried four thousand pound.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: We could carry four thousand pound bombs. A thousand pound bombs and incendiaries mostly. The load between them when we were bombing.
Interviewer: The four thousand pound was the [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You did two bombs together.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: You didn’t do any eight thousand pound —
HB: No, we didn’t. We only had four. [unclear] Only fours we had. Yeah. Four thousand pounder. In the logbook [unclear] four thousand pounder and a few four thousand pound bombs and the rest were incendiaries in containers. Small bomb containers. We carried four of those in think four thousand pounders. A Cookie as it was. The danger was of course that you had to remember to fuse the bombs going out otherwise you came back with the bombs on board. You’d got them but they were dropped safe. Going out you had to cut through. You had to switch off the [unclear] going across the coast and also fuse the bombs going across the coast.
Interviewer: So how did you fuse the bombs then?
HB: You’d got to switch the fuse in the bomb hold [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yes. Yes. And if you didn’t fuse them they dropped, they dropped safe. When you came back there were no wires hanging down. They were all gone with the bombs. The wires are armed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Down to [unclear] they pulled the fuse out and armed them. So you came back with the wires there there was a lot of trouble. Yeah. But you didn’t get, I mean you logged it with the navigator. That’s all logged on his [unclear]
Interviewer: Again in your logbook there’s one part in here which says time [unclear] from Lincoln Cathedral to watchtower.
HB: That’s when we –
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: That’s when we did our Peenemunde raid when we did [unclear]. Peenemunde was a target [unclear] because you couldn’t see the target. There were tall trees and woods. [unclear] and incendiaries.
Interviewer: I was going to ask you about that because —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: That was the 17th of August wasn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] the Peenemunde raid which you were, which you were on. What sort of —
HB: [unclear]
Interviewer: Whereabouts was —
HB: It’s down here.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: 17th of August.
Interviewer: Yeah. The 17th of August. Yeah. Did it say what bomb load you had on there?
HB: There was, that was a Cookie on. [unclear] I think it was the only one. Yeah. One four thousand pound. No. Mainly incendiaries. There were five thousand pounder, four pound incendiaries and thirty pound incendiaries because of the trees and the woods set alight.
Interviewer: And the four thousand that was a blast bomb wasn’t it?
HB: Yeah. That was a Cookie.
Interviewer: That would just blast. Blast everything out as soon as [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. We had no high incendiaries. No high explosive bombs. Just incendiaries. Yeah. The Berlin one was —
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: [unclear] which we attended.
Interviewer: Peenemunde was just –
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: A rocket.
HB: That was a rocket. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: A rocket site.
HB: Yeah. But you couldn’t, you couldn’t see anything.
Interviewer: You couldn’t see anything.
HB: No. It was all smoke and flames.
Interviewer: That was quite a thing from 9 Squadron.
HB: Yeah. Went on the raid. Yes.
Interviewer: Did you know what target you were attacking on that raid?
HB: We were told what it was at the time. Yes.
Interviewer: Can you remember what [unclear]
HB: [unclear] it was all in [unclear] station. That’s what it is. At the time they were explaining the different bombs.
Interviewer: Right. So, they didn’t say right we need to bomb such and such [unclear]
HB: Yeah. It was all marked. Yeah. At the briefing. It had to be marked because you couldn’t see the ground. So it had to be marked. That was why we were practicing timed and distance run.
Interviewer: And that had just been before the —
HB: Yeah. Before it. You did that anyway in case you couldn’t see the target. That’s why the markers were there.
Interviewer: Right. So [unclear] from Bardney [unclear]
HB: I can’t think.
Interviewer: So you would just leave 9 Squadron.
HB: They were all mixed up anyway and you don’t leave squadron by squadron. You’re all mixed up at night. You can’t see who’s who, where’s where.
Interviewer: Oh, right.
HB: We all took off at the same time. Of course, you did different cross countries to get a different height and you arrived different times at this point.
Interviewer: So you were told what height you had to bomb.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: And then the other squadrons would have been told.
HB: Perhaps a different height.
Interviewer: A different height.
HB: A different height. I think most were trying to get back somehow.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Maximum height of the aeroplanes. You got as high as you can.
Interviewer: I suppose you don’t always go to [unclear]
HB: No.
Interviewer: You actually bomb on [unclear]
HB: You could see them below over the target. You could see aeroplanes below you over the target. [unclear] In fact, the skipper [unclear] like that. If the plane was shot down with bombs going through the [unclear]
Interviewer: Your skipper.
HB: Yeah. He was on his second tour with 467 Squadron I think.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: An Australian squadron and, yeah —
Interviewer: Was he an Aussie then?
HB: No. He was from [unclear]. He went back. I don’t know where he went of course. Perhaps [unclear] get the time.
Interviewer: He was an English person?
HB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. With an English crew. Some of the Aussie crew [unclear] I think. Two of our crew went back with him.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: The rear gunner went back and the wireless operator went back. I think that was it.
Interviewer: And you decided to call it a day and go into training.
HB: Yeah. It was a bit unfortunate because I’d, I was in Northern Ireland. Bishops Court. I was trapped in there and they just lifted the travel ban so my wife could come over there and she’d been there I think a month and was saying about coming a second time and I said, ‘No. Not yet.’ I said, ‘Give me about three or four months and I’ll come back with you.’ I said, ‘I can’t come out and leave on my own.’ So, but he went back. He went back with the other crew. [unclear] but I couldn’t do it really. Wasted that time [unclear]
Interviewer: And you were living in Bardney. Your squadron were in Bardney.
HB: Yeah. Well, it was. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one week of it and the banns were called at Bardney church. My banns. Hers were called in London and I was on standby for a week when I came back so we had my honeymoon in Bardney.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Oh yeah. I finished.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Came back a couple of weeks just in case there was.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: Hopefully not before.
Interviewer: [unclear] you might have done more than [unclear] actually.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah [unclear] anyway. Great wasn’t it [laughs]
Interviewer: You didn’t get called on in the event.
HB: No.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I used to go and wave them off by the caravan.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: But I wasn’t called on.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I was hoping I wouldn’t be.
Interviewer: [unclear] that week was [unclear]
HB: Yeah. That’s true. Bardney. Then we had a honeymoon in Cornwall. First time we’d been to Cornwall. Then I went off to training flight. Wigtown [unclear] started at.
Interviewer: I’ve heard of Wigtown. Where is Wigtown?
HB: Up on the left of Scotland. Left going up on the, on the western side of Scotland. Went there for I think a training course. I went to two or three places. Then I was posted to Bishops Court which was a great posting. Used to go into Dublin. [unclear]
Interviewer: And was [unclear]
HB: It was a good station.
Interviewer: A good station was it?
HB: Good station. Good Mess. Nice people there. It was great. Great fun as well.
Interviewer: Yeah. Good. And was it laid back or was it regimental?
HB: No. No. Not really no. None of us. In fact, I was told off one of the days [unclear] I had it being a bit laid back on the squadron and [unclear] squadron.
Interviewer: So if you had some officer who didn’t —
HB: You saluted but that’s it. As I say when you go to a training flight I went over the coast once and [unclear] I never got a commission. We stayed together as NCOs. A couple of fellows in the beginning. We were friends together. [unclear] and we stayed [unclear]
Interviewer: Did you ever take anyone up when you did any practice runs? Did you ever take any of the ground crew or anybody that [unclear]
HB: Initially.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: No we used to officially take people on ops. The odd one. On that [unclear] Phil Wyatt [unclear] he was, Phil Wyatt was just a spare bod at the bottom.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: This was the Cologne —
HB: Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: Three tours.
HB: And he came with his friends as we did ours. He [unclear] with us on an operation.
Interviewer: Oh, just on the station.
HB: As a spare bod.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: And his pilot on operations.
Interviewer: So that that bombing certificate there. that tells you —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were within so many yards of the —
HB: Yeah, I think so. You got to within the aiming point area I think. Yeah. That’s what the claim is. But he was with us and we used to take Army people up occasionally. Ground jobs got in the way a bit. For experience on the operations. [unclear] the other way. Tucked away somewhere.
Interviewer: And that was on an operation.
HB: That was on operations. Yeah. Sometimes. But we only came once with the beginners. That was part way. I think we were going to Cologne. [pause] We were asked on different, the thirteenth trip, fourteenth trip to go to [unclear] They asked. We’d done fourteen. We’d stay home with the rest of them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: So we didn’t go on that.
Interviewer: There was a lot of Bardney, well 9 Squadron people.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Went to 97 Squadron.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: There was a lot of them went.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: That must have been, that must have been good because —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: They wouldn’t have just anybody.
HB: No. No.
Interviewer: You had to prove your —
HB: You had to be a good pilot.
Interviewer: You know he had to prove himself.
HB: Yeah. That’s what the crews said. No, we don’t want another tour. We’ve done fourteen. We’ll finish on the tour. It might change our luck.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: A lot of it was luck.
Interviewer: What was it like waiting for your thirtieth then? The final one.
HB: Yeah. Very very worrying. A bit worrying it was. In fact, yes, the last trip. The last trip was always a worry. You know, you don’t think of anything other than [unclear] You can’t handle. You can’t handle it. The last one was a bit [pause] yes a bit nervous. Anxious to get back.
Interviewer: You had a couple of beers when you got back off that.
HB: Oh yeah. More than that. More. Although I was getting married a couple of days later and the crew came down to London. Down by train to London. They came for the wedding. It was great. Yeah. We had more in common.
Interviewer: [unclear] people I’ve spoken to they used to get a ride when they were going north or wherever. One of the pilots would —
HB: Would take them up there.
Interviewer: Give them a ride.
HB: Yeah. We didn’t.
Interviewer: [unclear] or something like that.
HB: Yeah. We didn’t have that.
Interviewer: Or down London way. You didn’t do anything like that.
HB: No. we went by train. Yes, by train. I think you’ve got pilots take more chances [unclear] I think the skipper went a couple of times.
Interviewer: I was thinking did any of your crew have any other peculiarities before they got in the, in the air. You hear about some of them peeing on the —
HB: Yeah. They pee’d on the tailwheel.
Interviewer: On the tailwheel.
HB: Tailwheel. Yeah. Yeah. They did that. And I was taking their lucky charms. Their lucky mascot.
Interviewer: Did you have anything?
HB: No. I used to carry an old raincoat and a pair of socks just in case we were shot down. My father’s old raincoat I used to carry all rolled up and stuffed in by the parachute. Stuffed in the —
Interviewer: I’m sorry. Who’s raincoat?
HB: My father’s old raincoat. One of my father’s old raincoats.
Interviewer: Why?
HB: Just so you had something to wear if you were shot down. A pair of socks. They were never used.
Interviewer: So you’d never ever use your escape —
HB: No.
Interviewer: Your escape kit.
HB: No. You’d get it each night but you never used it.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: You’d hand them back in. Yeah.
Interviewer: What about [unclear]
HB: We didn’t have them.
Interviewer: You didn’t but did the pilot?
HB: No. [unclear]
Interviewer: And did you ever get any parachute training?
HB: No. We didn’t. We did dinghy drill. I know we did a dinghy drill.
Interviewer: In the, in the tank at Bardney.
HB: In the tank at Bardney.
Interviewer: Whereabouts was that then? Was it on the actual airfield?
HB: Oh yes. It was on the airfield. Yeah. On the airfield. Just at the side of the airfield. [unclear] We used to get a dinghy down and climb in.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I think it was in between the hangars was it? I can’t remember. It was near the hangars anyway. Yeah. On the side. out on the outskirts. We used to go along and play around with the dinghy drill. We did the training. [unclear] Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you, did you go on when you were actually taken up and did the gun tests and things did you have to [unclear] as well?
HB: Yeah. We did. We did a test firing and then we got out to sea. Only out at sea.
Interviewer: And that was [unclear]
HB: The mid-upper and rear testing guns.
Interviewer: And you would have to get [unclear] —
HB: Which meant they had to be cleaned again but [unclear] You get little plastic caps on the end to stop them. They’d go off when you fired them. Stops the moisture.
Interviewer: That was, that would be the armourer’s job [unclear]
HB: No. You clean those guns. You do the guns.
Interviewer: Oh, do you?
HB: Yeah. Do your own.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: Firearms. [unclear] the ammunition, make sure it was [unclear]. The armourer helped you a bit but you would do the gun cleaning.
HB: Right. Thank you. I suppose I’d better start off with OTU at Cottesmore where I crewed up with Keith Robinson. Previously before training in Canada I was flying in America, in Florida and I was taken off the flying course for low flying and various other things. I was sick for a week. I crewed up with Keith because I knew him when he was on the same course in, in America in ’42 in [unclear] So I knew if he’d got through that course he couldn’t be a better pilot so I crewed up with him at Cottesmore. We picked up a navigator called Gosling and we picked our rear gunner. We all sort of got together. We were all NCOs at the same time and we went, go back a bit, at Swinderby where we went on the Manchesters. [unclear] really. We went out and we came back on four engines.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. But I came back on one engine [unclear] landing. While out there on one of these trips I think we converted to Lancs by then at Swinderby and, but while on one of the trips Gosling, the navigator got completely lost. Hopelessly lost. He panicked and we eventually had to call Darkie to find our way back which we did. The CO didn’t like it. The CO didn’t like you calling Darkie because it was [quite secret] The skipper had gone to see the CO this morning. We then got rid of Gosling. We got another navigator because he kept panicking in the air which wasn’t much good so we got a new navigator.
Interviewer: So you got your response from Darkie did you?
HB: Yes. Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Do you know what it was?
HB: No idea.
Interviewer: No.
HB: The wireless op did all that.
Interviewer: So it would just give you a bearing and —
HB: Yeah. A bearing to come back. Get back to base. But no, it was fine that way and we knew that navigator was fine and we were in luck. So we finished at Swinderby. Went on to 9 Squadron in May ’43 and started operations. We did a bit of touring around the place, finding the area. Looking at the area.
Interviewer: I do notice in your logbook Hugh that you did an operation rather —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: An OT, OTU.
HB: Yeah, that’s right.
Interviewer: In a different squadron.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: I understood it was just the pilots who did like a second dickie trip but you mention that bomb aimers —
HB: No. Bomb aimers and navigators and pilots went in those days for one trip to see. Get experience of going on operations.
Interviewer: All with different crews.
HB: All with different crews. Yes. Which, which was a great mistake in a way because there was a one in three chance that you would lose your own crew and they stopped doing it. I think after a while they would only send the pilots. Maybe navigators. I’m not sure. But certainly they didn’t send bomb aimers after. Well, I went with [unclear] with 467 Australian squadron. [unclear] the last one was shot down later on, you know. Yeah. He was killed later on. About two raids later. We went to Pilsen. You never forget the first trip do you? When we were getting near the target the whole town was surrounded by searchlights you know. So, ok then [Alan] sure, bloody hell, surely not. He said when you get there sometimes you know it looks bad from the distance but when you get near its [unclear] between. So it was great. No, it was a good journey. A good trip. I went straight down.
Interviewer: So you were actually sat in the —
HB: Yeah. In the turret in the front.
Interviewer: In the turret.
HB: The front turret. Yeah. The seats [let down?] where the bomb aimer works. I stood on the seat where he rested.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: But then they had the Mark 14 bombsight [unclear] Before they had the course setting old bombsight they’d had for years. But the Mark 14 was good except you were restricted with space because you had this great computer on the left-hand side which worked all the sightings out. You put them all in and the wind velocity and things in on the computer. It worked it out on the side. But it was good because the bombsight was gyroscopically controlled so it was always flat on the ground whereas before [unclear] through the bombsight. This one made you plan. The bombsight was level with the road all the time. So you could judge coming in much better.
Interviewer: Right. Which was on the Mark 1.
HB: On the Mark 14.
Interviewer: Which —
HB: Which all crews had by then. The Mark 14 bombsight.
Interviewer: Right. So you were on that before you just made sure you [unclear]
HB: That was a course setting at CSPS with wires going up the front. That was only in training really.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: We had, we had a Mark 14 at Swinderby. One of these.
Interviewer: You got on alright with the Mark 14.
HB: Yes. Fine. Yeah. Much better. Much easier. Much better because you could turn in. You got the ground and all the time you were turning on the [boulter] which you didn’t have before.
Interviewer: Yes.
HB: [unclear] and that’s good. But we had some good trips, good flights, had no real damage apart from holes in the aeroplane which you could get anywhere. When the flak came near you could smell it. You could feel it, see it and smell it but we had [unclear]. We saw fighters on three occasions and avoided them. I think the rear gunner fired on one one time. That was it.
Interviewer: Right. So you flew into Bardney. How did you actually get to Bardney? Did you fly to Bardney or come on the —
HB: No. Came on transport.
Interviewer: Transport. Right.
HB: From Swinderby. We all came together of course and we picked up the two more trades. We picked up two more at Swinderby didn’t we? The mid-upper gunner and the flight engineer.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Swinderby. Got on well together. We used to do everything together as NCOs. We’d fly together, we’d eat together. Sleep in the same hut.
Interviewer: [unclear] there was all seven of you in one.
HB: Yeah. Seven in one. They had two crews in one hut normally.
Interviewer: So there was fourteen.
HB: Fourteen in hut. Yeah.
Interviewer: In a hut.
HB: Two crews in a hut.
Interviewer: [unclear] the crew you shared with.
HB: No. No idea. But often you’d see people in taking the belongings away when a crew didn’t come back. Which was sad but yeah we slept in the same hut together. It was fun. Got our working done. As I say we did everything together. Some of the flights when we had, we’d go down to our flights. I think the flight engineer was missing on three. On three occasions. We had a spare flight engineer. That was Taffy [pause] what was his surname?
Interviewer: Not to worry.
HB: Anyway, it might come to me. He was quite nice. He took, he took Tony’s place, the flight engineer’s place. I think two trips he went on later on.
Interviewer: Yes.
HB: But good trips. We did our thirty. Troubles of course. Two to Italy were good easy trips.
Interviewer: When you did the Italy trips did you then go out to North Africa?
HB: No. We came back.
Interviewer: You came back.
HB: Yeah. We came back. It was about a ten hour trip that was. Nine hours something. We did our length of time there. You’d do it now in about an hour and a quarter.
Interviewer: Did you do any of the low flying?
HB: No.
Interviewer: At all?
HB: Only one low flying I did was dropping mines in the Baltic. We’d fly [unclear] on a time and distance and you record where you drop your mines so they can plot where they are when you get there. Very good one because you’re low level. Go down to fifty feet. Of course, you start [unclear] which you’d know about it. You’d get light flak. You can’t avoid it. On those times, on those trips of course you did this was did the straight and level and you were thinking all the time up there. Telling him. I was working with the pilot.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And the plane was in control.
Interviewer: What, what did the mines look like?
HB: They were long cylindricals. Just cylindrical objects underneath. I think they came five. Four or five I think.
Interviewer: So there would be what? Like four or five foot long.
HB: Yeah. About five foot long. Yeah. About, I suppose about eighteen inches around. Eighteen inches around.
Interviewer: So it was just like a drum.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: With a square. In a square.
HB: Yeah. In a square. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: With a parachute attached when it dropped. They were all fused. The bombs weren’t unless you fused it so the parachute floated down into the sea.
Interviewer: And that might have been from twenty foot.
HB: About twenty foot. Yeah. Quite low.
Interviewer: And when that [unclear] near the entrances.
HB: Yeah, the harbour.
Interviewer: In the harbour.
HB: Yeah, Gdnya harbour we dropped them.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: We dropped them in Gdynia. We started off not on Gdynia itself, it was too well defended but away from Gdynia so it came in, we flew out over the harbour and dropped them. So that shipping coming in. As far as we knew they worked ok. We did the first trip to Hamburg when we were the first to drop Window on that firebomb but it was a good trip because the fighters didn’t worry me, the flak didn’t worry me because the Windows confused all the radar. So that was [unclear]
Interviewer: Whose job was it to put the Window down?
HB: I did that through the bomb bay. Through the bomb bay.
Interviewer: Oh, through the bomb bay.
HB: Right. The bomb bay. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. So the [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. I don’t know. No, I think we both did that. I think I put some through the nose and the [unclear] put some through the flare chute. But we certainly dropped them. It certainly confused the radar [pause] And of course the air crew would put things in the bomb doors like bricks [unclear] and the ground crew might put in to throw something before we set off [unclear]
Interviewer: Always set off —
HB: Empty bottles.
Interviewer: You mentioned about putting empty bottles in there because [unclear].
HB: Yeah. We used empty bottles sometimes. I dropped them out through the front. Yes. Through the front door. There was a little recess underneath, under the bombing window which was open.
Interviewer: You said they would go off in a screaming mode.
HB: Yes. they would make quite a noise going down. You’d catch some of the [unclear] once or twice.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: When they weren’t flying over friendly territory drop the bottles.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I think —
Interviewer: Sorry, go on.
HB: No. A couple of occasions we came back on three engines. One time we went to Leipzig we lost two on the way out. One to flak and the second one was icing. We re-started the iced one. Feathered that and restarted it so we managed to come back on three engines [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. So when you were getting ready you’d see the Battle Order presumably in the sergeant’s —
HB: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Would that be in the Sergeant’s Mess then where you would see it?
HB: Yes. That’s right. No, it would be in the, yeah in the, the battle order in the sergeant’s mess. In the messes.
Interviewer: So you would go there every —
HB: Yeah. You would go.
Interviewer: Every morning [unclear]
HB: To see who was on.
Interviewer: To see who was on.
HB: [unclear] obviously if you were on what was the stage after that?
HB: Well, you would have a night flying practice. Some night flying from [unclear] and you’d go, you’d go to the briefing at certain times and you’d be given the final briefing. From the briefing at that time all the doors would be closed. We wouldn’t know the target until then.
Interviewer: This was all the crew or —
HB: Oh no. The whole crew.
Interviewer: The whole crew.
HB: Yeah. Before, before the main brief, no after the main briefing you used to go to our different groups. [unclear] and any final points.
Interviewer: And this was all on the aircrew was it?
HB: All on the aircrew. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: In the crew room. Yes. In the briefing room. Yes.
Interviewer: Right. So, so you go in the briefing room, all the doors are closed and then what? Like was there like a curtain that was pulled back.
HB: Yeah. The CO came in and pulled the curtain and showed the target.
Interviewer: That was the CO of the —
HB: Yeah. CO of the station.
Interviewer: Of 9 Squadron.
HB: 9 Squadron.
Interviewer: Or Bardney Station?
HB: No. The CO of the flying. The flying would come in. Yeah. And they’d draw the curtain back and you’d see the target and there would be a few oohs and ahhs as to where the target was. You know. [unclear] sometimes. Wow.
Interviewer: Yes.
HB: Depending on the target.
Interviewer: And presumably on that [unclear] the route to get there.
HB: Yes. Yeah. The route was laid out there. Where to go. Yes. And they would talk about the marker flares. Where they would be. Where the PFF would drop the marker flares enroute. If it was a long trip [unclear] enroute [unclear]
Interviewer: That would be done and then [pause] So the briefing, the main briefing would take how long?
HB: Oh depending. You know about half an hour I suppose. Half an hour.
Interviewer: And so looking —
HB: Yeah. You would get the Met person come up and he would tell you. The intelligence person would come up. They would all come up to give their little spiel. The CO would do the routing. Yeah. You went back to your groups, bombing, bombing groups to get target maps, [conversion] maps of the targets you could see close up. That’s when you could see the ground. If you were in the first wave, unless if you were in the first wave you didn’t have much chance of seeing the ground. It’s ablaze. Flames and the smoke. But in the first wave you can. When you are in the second or following waves you don’t. All you see are the fires and the markers going down via the [unclear]
Interviewer: So once the, once the first wave coming in then they would be marking the target again.
HB: Yeah. Marking all the time.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah marking.
Interviewer: And this actually, was that in Mosquitoes or was it in Lancs?
HB: I think the Lancs were used to as well as Mosquitoes because we also had a master of ceremonies sometimes circling the target telling you which flares to bomb.
Interviewer: Oh were there.
HB: We had about four of those just in case one was shot down but number two took over and on occasion you heard, ‘This is number two taking over.’ But they were directing which flares to bomb because the Germans on the ground would also light flares to try and pull you away from the target. They’d light the coloured flares on the ground and you weren’t to know which ones were the right ones. So the master bomber would tell you which PFF flares to bomb. I think on a few occasions we saw them around and Cologne was a good one because we were one of the few waves flying [unclear] You could see [unclear] and that below. You could see everything. So when you could see they [unclear] for you. If you can’t see it they would point out for you because you couldn’t even see the targets. All you were doing was bombing the flares.
Interviewer: So to get your aiming point you really needed wind finding aircraft as well would you?
HB: Yeah. Not necessarily. You’ve got the wind. Yeah. You were told the wind anyway and you said —
Interviewer: Yeah but in some cases I’ve seen where on some operations 9 Squadron often sent more aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: As wind finders.
HB: Yeah. Beforehand. Yes, that’s right. Yeah. But we didn’t. We were given the wind before that.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: I think why some might get winds perhaps on the way if it wasn’t —
Interviewer: And you would just adjust your —
HB: Adjust your turrets.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: The computer. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: Just putting the wind speed on it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. So we, we’ve got you going to [unclear] where we were. Your briefings and things.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were saying you got, you got some instructions on rice paper.
HB: Yeah. Well, every crew had a slip of paper on which there was the colours of the day, where the beacons were. Where the beacons were coming home in case you got lost with the flashing letters and where they were and you were given them on rice paper to see if you crashed at all. Forced landing. You could swallow it, chewing. But it had all this secret information. The colours of the day were the important ones for recognition. Verey cartridges particularly had colours of the day if you were in trouble again you know. Flying out on [unclear] was always a difficult thing because the gunners would get trigger happy.
Interviewer: And where was that?
HB: Over Portsmouth or one of the Naval, any Naval, any Naval establishment. They were quite trigger happy at that part of the [unclear]
Interviewer: Whose job was it to fire the flares of the day?
HB: That was the wireless op.
Interviewer: The wireless op.
HB: Yeah. And in the early days we carried pigeons. Two pigeons. Very early on. But they stopped doing that. I didn’t see the point. If you were shot down you couldn’t really do much about it anyway but they used to send pigeons back. But I think they lost so many pigeons [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: The wireless op would get his two pigeons with his hand.
Interviewer: You don’t know where they came from do you?
HB: There was a pigeon section on Bardney.
Interviewer: Was there?
HB: So Henry told me. Henry knew. Ask Henry. He knows about it.
Interviewer: Oh right. Ok.
HB: Yeah. Henry talks about the pigeon section on there. On Bardney.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Henry. Yeah.
Interviewer: So we’ve got you got you coming here today and then after the briefing you then knew the time. Was it then you go back to —
HB: Go back to the Sergeant’s Mess and have a meal.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: And then you’d go on lorries out to dispersal.
Interviewer: So you were going to come back.
HB: Come back to the crews. Get changed.
Interviewer: The crew rooms. Get changed.
HB: Get changed, get dressed and leaving the bits behind. Identification or something. Suited you up and then you’d go out to the vans, the lorries to take you out to dispersal.
Interviewer: Right. Did you get a flask of tea or coffee?
HB: Yeah. We got a flask of tea.
Interviewer: And was that given to you?
HB: That was given us. Yes.
Interviewer: When you, when you —
HB: [unclear]
Interviewer: You got a flask. Did you get any food at all?
HB: Not really. No. We’d been given the food.
Interviewer: What about chocolate?
HB: Yeah. We got a chocolate ration. Yeah, we did. Aircrew got a ration of chocolate which you could take with you.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Not rationed. You got, I used to store mine at home to take home with me if I fancied a bit of chocolate. So I didn’t take mine. I stored it in the room.
Interviewer: So you’d got it in the room.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you got a flask of tea.
HB: Yeah. A flask. A flask of tea made.
Interviewer: For every —
HB: Yeah. Made for everyone. Yeah.
Interviewer: They did that.
HB: And some chocolate. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. So then you would go and your plane would, you would already have been out and seen [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Selected for you. You did your DIs before that. In fact, you did, you did a flight before. Twenty minutes, a quarter of an hour checking every time.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: [unclear] you were doing that.
HB: And then you’d come back and you’d go up to the aircraft in the evening and it’s all been checked. [unclear] the bombs load again. [unclear] And that was it. You’d hang around until you got the signal to go. Get in the aeroplanes and then you taxied around. You would taxi out one behind the other.
Interviewer: Yeah. Do you just, do you have a sequence where you would have to go or did you just go when you —
HB: You just go down like when you could. You’d see aircraft going and you’d follow in a line. Then [unclear] or somebody went off the peritrack and got bogged down. They got towed around and on to the line again to go in the peritrack the other way. Somebody got, one or two got bogged down. Go off the peritrack and they didn’t go. They had to go [unclear] but you used up more fuel by that time.
Interviewer: [unclear] and you used the short runway.
HB: Yeah. Once. I think once, twice we used the short runway depending on the wind direction. If the wind was that way you used the short runway. [unclear] I don’t know what it was. The long one was quite long. [unclear] I suppose. The long one. [unclear] and it was a bit dodgy because you had to run up the engines first, get full throttle before you even [unclear] You’d shoot off like a rocket and Jack’s the last one to pull the wheels up you see.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: That’s right. That’s right. It used to push you up. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Depending on the bomb load you had again. Yeah. You could often tell where you were going. How far you were going if you chatted up the ground crew to see what the petrol load was. Once you knew what the fuel load was you could estimate. If it was Ruhr trip, a Berlin trip or an Italian trip of fourteen hours. We landed away once. I think it was in Italy. We came back short of fuel [unclear]. In fact, there were two. Two aerodromes. I forget the name of the other one. There were two together with drem lights overlapping. We called up one and landed at the other one.
Interviewer: And where did they actually cross?
HB: On the coast up north. North coast. On the east coast.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Because we hadn’t got the fuel to get back home we came back to the east coast and landed. But I remember we called up one and landed at the other one. I was taking, they said we just called up. But no it was a good trip. We did, did our tour quite well.
Interviewer: I’d like to show you in your logbook you actually [unclear] come back early —
HB: I bet it was twice actually.
Interviewer: It wasn’t classed as an operation.
HB: No. No. No.
Interviewer: So what classed as an operation? Is it when —
HB: To get to the target. Drop your bombs.
Interviewer: You’d got to drop your —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Drop bombs.
HB: Yeah. Get to the target. Drop the bombs. We did this because one time one of the engines failed which rotated the hydraulics and rear turret and without the rear turret we just came back. The skipper wouldn’t go without the rear turret operating so we dropped the bombs in the North Sea. I think we did that twice. I think twice we had engine failure which wasn’t bad out of thirty really but they were very suspicious when you came back. Whether you didn’t want to do it or something. Very suspicious. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: So after you’ve, you’ve obviously taken off you get the coloured light —
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: From the little van at the side of the runway.
HB: The green. The green aldis. Yeah.
Interviewer: And so when you went along —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you also take your time [unclear] your logbook. You obviously fill your logbook in after the trip.
HB: Yes. Yeah. When you get there.
Interviewer: Yeah. And so did they actually give you a time?
HB: No. You were given a time [unclear] That was all logged by the navigator.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: The navigator logs it all.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: And he logs all you see on the way in his log. Anything he sees that’s different. See if anyone got shot down in what place. You see, you log everything you can see because you never know what information might be of use when you got back when you were debriefed.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: So you went to, took off. You did a cross country depending. The Ruhr was a short trip. You’d do a cross country and [unclear]thousand feet to get height. On a long trip like Berlin or Italy you’d climb on track and try [unclear] If it was a short trip like the Ruhr maybe do a cross country up to Scotland. That sort of thing.
Interviewer: Up to Scotland.
HB: Yeah. Well, up north to get height. Yeah. Get height. Get to [unclear] thousand feet and you set course from [Cromer?] We always used to set course from [Cromer?] As near to [unclear] as you could get.
Interviewer: And when you were taking off were you on your —
HB: No. I sat behind the main spar.
Interviewer: Sat behind it.
HB: Behind the main spar. Yes. the engineer was with the pilot but I was behind the main spar. [unclear] Same with landing really. I was behind the main spar for that. But on one occasion, I forget where we came back from I was just [unclear] in the nose and I saw this aircraft right in front of us diving. I was, ‘Dive, dive, dive.’ And of course he did it straight away and we missed him. [unclear] on the main spar. Fortunately I had moved down there [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. So when you were actually on track for leaving at night time and you can’t see anything. Navigation lights or anything like that.
HB: No. No. No. You were looking out all the time in front in fact. Seeing things that are going on there. Looking out at our aeroplanes and the first thing you see are the [unclear] You can feel the impact of the slip stream bumping up and down. [unclear] But we needed [unclear] You look out. You can feel them first bumping up and down. But we never flew straight and level. Only over England or the North Sea. Crossing the coast we started weaving. [unclear]
Interviewer: So when you were there did you come across any fighters at all?
HB: Yeah. Twice occasions. The rear gunner fired once or twice you know but they didn’t worry us. We avoided them. I think [unclear] all the time. You know, they can’t get a line on you really.
Interviewer: Did you have any time in the front turret then when you were on ops?
HB: Not really. No. No. You don’t need to. Not much, not much chance I find with [unclear] the bombs looking out most of the time.
Interviewer: So when you’d do that you would come up, you would take over and give the instructions, the directions.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: As soon as you said, ‘Bombs gone.’
HB: Well, he’d say, ‘Bombing run. Take over.’ And you’d take over and say, ‘Left. Left,’ or, ‘Right.’ And, ‘Bombs gone.’ As, ‘Bombs gone,’ you started leaving. Yeah. And then you’d get a light on the, on the box beside you telling you when the camera was going pump and you’d level up for the camera shot.
Interviewer: Do you remember how much longer it is after? After the bombs had gone.
HB: Oh, it was only about a minute I suppose which seems a long time.
Interviewer: Is the idea of that camera then being able to photograph more?
HB: Well, they’d plot where the bombs fell. Yes. Yeah. Apart from that when you had bombs no. [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. But does it actually show? Do you actually see your bombs on the —
HB: Not really. You see all the time you were flying you see aircraft bombing all around you. you’d see a burst of —
Interviewer: So how did they know where you’d —
HB: Only about —
Interviewer: Working on —
HB: Only by the time.
Interviewer: [unclear] or something like that.
HB: Only by the time that your, when your bombs dropped and when the camera goes off that time business. They [unclear] I don’t suppose its an accurate thing.
Interviewer: And they would know if you were —
HB: Within the target.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. I think on the last trip that we returned on our last trip we were turning and the camera didn’t like that much but as we had done the other trips [unclear]
Interviewer: And did you actually see your pictures afterwards?
HB: No. You saw stills from it sometimes. Yes. You could always go to the intelligence and look at the stills from the raid you’d been on. They’d got still photographs there. Yes. [unclear] more than one I think. He took three or four photographs on one so you could plot all your bombs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So then you’d be coming in. The skipper would take over and then you were back to —
HB: [unclear] hadn’t you? Then you’d get the course from the navigator.
Interviewer: To get back [unclear]
HB: You had to go through the target and then turned off afterward.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did you ever not bomb and have to go around again?
HB: Not really. We didn’t. We made sure we got it the first time. On track the first time.
Interviewer: So then you’d come back to Bardney and then at what time or what place would you start contacting Bardney?
HB: Oh, as soon as we could over, over the North Sea. As early as we could because the earlier you contact Bardney you could land.
Interviewer: You’d get your name on the list.
HB: As soon as we could get within range we’d keep calling them. Eventually we’d hear them answer. You know, the first [unclear] of the crew.
Interviewer: So did you, would you have had —
HB: Come straight in they would say.
Interviewer: Yeah. You would then be on your, this rice paper you were talking about. [unclear] I think Bardney was, was it small, ‘Small Talk’ or something like that.
HB: Yeah. ‘Small Talk.’
Interviewer: So then you would think you were safe. ‘Small Talk. Small Talk.’
HB: Yeah. ‘Z-Zebra calling.’
Interviewer: Yeah. And then —
HB: Z-Zebra calling.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And they would say, ‘Pancake,’ and you were straight in then or you were at one thousand feet at Bardney circling. You’d circle the airfield waiting for your turn.
Interviewer: And then you would just come in.
HB: Yeah. Come in.
Interviewer: You would be on radio then.
HB: Yes. They would count you by radio.
Interviewer: Call and say —
HB: They’d say Z-Zebra yeah.
Interviewer: To land.
HB: Yeah. Landing.
Interviewer: What were the lights on the runway? Were they electric lights?
HB: Yeah. They were. Yeah.
Interviewer: What, all the way down.
HB: Yeah. All the way down.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: [unclear] both sides.
Interviewer: On both sides.
HB: Yeah. Yes.
Interviewer: So you could actually see it was —
HB: You could see the runway. See it coming in. Yeah. Except when there was [unclear] Circle then. Circle and so forth until the intruders had gone and the lights would come on.
Interviewer: So the lights would come on.
HB: Yeah. They would come on. Yeah.
Interviewer: And even when you were taking off.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: The lights were on.
HB: The lights were on then.
Interviewer: So you could actually look out then.
HB: Oh yeah. They were at the side of the runway. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: It was getting dark. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And the runway lights.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: And the drem lights on with everything else.
Interviewer: There was because I was landing then. I was bringing it down and brakes on and then —
HB: Yes. it was a bit hairy then but as we said any landing you walked away from was a good landing.
Interviewer: Yeah. And when you come in to land you were [unclear] with the squadron.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s true.
Interviewer: And then —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Before you got to dispersal, before you parked you opened the bomb doors in case any incendiaries [unclear] at you and blew the aircraft away. That’s why [unclear] with incendiaries dropping out that were left in the bomb bay.
Interviewer: Right. And I think you were showing over the weekend also that they, didn’t they make it where you had to be the ground crew actually.
HB: Yeah. Checking out. Checking the bomb bay first before you opened the bomb doors and switched off. Yes. that’s right. but we would open our bomb doors sometimes coming over the North Sea to make sure.
Oh right. And you would just look.
HB: Yeah. Look inside, you know [unclear]
Interviewer: So then you would meet the ground crew who were there waiting for you.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You would hand it back to them.
HB: That’s right.
Interviewer: And transfer and you would —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You would hand it back to them.
HB: That’s right.
Interviewer: You’d have a transfer and then you’d —
HB: You’d get on a lorry back to debriefing.
Interviewer: And where was the debriefing done? Was that like the briefing room?
HB: It was a special briefing room. debriefing. Yeah. That’s right. That’s where you logged. The navigator, the bomb aimer and the crew.
Interviewer: There was a cup of tea there for you.
HB: Oh yeah. A cup of tea. That’s the first thing you get. Then they go through the log with you as to what you saw, what this meant, what that meant.
Interviewer: And was this before or after you got changed out of your uniform?
HB: No. Before.
Interviewer: Before.
HB: Yeah. You did the debrief before you got back. You didn’t come back for that sort of thing.
Interviewer: And what was that? Like a quarter of an hour. Ten minutes.
HB: Yeah. About ten minutes, a quarter of an hour depending on how much you had on your log. About a quarter of an hour I suppose really.
Interviewer: And did you go anywhere else?
HB: Then you’d come back, get changed. Sometimes [unclear] you’d go straight in and have a drink at the bar if it was still open. You used to get beer sometimes. You could go and get some beer lined up when you came back.
Interviewer: At least you got [bottled] beer.
HB: [Bottled] beer. Yeah.
Interviewer: So you could put it on the mantelpiece.
HB: Yeah. Leave it in your hut or leave it somewhere. Often you would say, ‘If I don’t come back you can have my beer,’ sort of thing. You got a few free beers that way. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Where’s Joe?’ ‘Not come back.’
Interviewer: Did you ever get attached to people who were [unclear] who didn’t come back.
HB: You did. Yeah. Other bomb aimers. You see I trained with some in Canada. One there at Bardney I trained with him. I think he was killed in Italy. Yeah. He was.
Interviewer: Yeah. Do you remember any of the others? You had, I think your CO was flight commanders [Bunkow?]
HB: Yeah. [Bunkow] was the first flight commander. Very good. Very good. Come and encourage you. Come and have a look at your flight, around the flight. Or B flight [unclear] and talk with you. Yeah. Very good.
Interviewer: [unclear] he always had a little swagger stick.
HB: Yeah. He did. that’s very good. Yeah. That’s very —
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Like the army major I think.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. He did. Yeah. He carried that with him.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. And so —
HB: He was very good. Very good. Very concerned.
Interviewer: Yeah. What kind of environment [unclear]
HB: Well, that was nice. You didn’t see them that often but he would come around occasionally around to the flights when you were ok.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. On one of the flights.
Interviewer: [unclear] you thought it might be an easy one.
HB: Well, you looked at the Battle Order and if the CO was on the Battle Order you might be alright for a good trip this time. But often they’d change the Battle Order when the weather was bad or something They changed the target and then of course we were stuck with a more difficult target. You can’t blame him. His second tour. What the hell. You’d choose your own trips [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: To go.
Interviewer: Yeah. He had an all-officer crew didn’t he?
HB: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: When he was flying [unclear] was flying.
HB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. We trained from [unclear] We had U-Uncle. That was the main aeroplane except when we’d go on leave and you say, ‘Make sure you don’t bend it before we go back.’ We got leave every six weeks for a week to ten days. Another weekend.
Interviewer: [unclear] was there many days where you couldn’t —
HB: Not really. You see we did from May to October through the summer which is quite good. I mean you go up on a night flying test in shirtsleeves with a pair of pyjamas on. There were no Mae Wests. You weren’t over the sea.
Interviewer: Yeah. So [unclear] was everything you were actually, was everything done on local time?
HB: Yeah. Local time.
Interviewer: And were you bombing —
HB: That was local time.
Interviewer: Local time.
HB: Yeah. That’s right. [unclear]
Interviewer: And that was on local time because I’ve noticed —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: On some of 617s things they actually put the take-off and land on local time but the —
HB: Bombing time —
Interviewer: On sort of —
HB: [unclear] No. No. We used local time.
Interviewer: Does that seem quite —
HB: Yeah. Quite difficult.
Interviewer: Quite difficult because at that time —
HB: No.
Interviewer: There was one hour and two hour differences.
HB: We used local time. Our time on the charts.
Interviewer: So, do you remember [unclear] got people like [unclear]
HB: Yes.
Interviewer: And finished up on 617.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember any of them?
HB: No. No. I don’t remember the names or anything.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: It was a long time ago. I knew [unclear] [unclear] because he lived near me. We knew each other. He was a pilot, against the pilot’s name.
Interviewer: They’d come in —
HB: They’d come in [unclear] That’s right. [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I knew his crew quite well. Knew other bomb aimers.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: But someone I trained with in Canada.
Interviewer: Yeah and the just getting around to the [unclear] and the flight sergeant’s Mess and the like.
HB: Yes.
Interviewer: [unclear] were mostly tin.
HB: Mostly tin. Yes.
Interviewer: Tin plate.
HB: Yeah. Mostly tin [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: As the huts were.
Interviewer: As the huts were.
HB: As the huts were. yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember what were you on after [unclear] He was actually on the communal side.
HB: Oh yes. Yeah. On the communal side. Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: It wasn’t far from the Sergeant’s Mess I don’t think really. [unclear] And of course as [unclear] was commissioned. They commissioned all the pilots and he was commissioned after I think about three months. A couple of months. He still came to the Mess with me [unclear] sometimes. We could go in there. He used to buy me a drink in the Sergeant’s Mess. Yeah. He was a flight sergeant Yeah, as I say I knew him in America. Florida. He was on the same flying course and he could pass that course and became a pilot you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: So I crewed up with him. In fact [unclear] I don’t think —
Interviewer: And was there ever any of the special bombs or any other things that you were —
HB: No. We carried four thousand pound.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: We could carry four thousand pound bombs. A thousand pound bombs and incendiaries mostly. The load between them when we were bombing.
Interviewer: The four thousand pound was the [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You did two bombs together.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: You didn’t do any eight thousand pound —
HB: No, we didn’t. We only had four. [unclear] Only fours we had. Yeah. Four thousand pounder. In the logbook [unclear] four thousand pounder and a few four thousand pound bombs and the rest were incendiaries in containers. Small bomb containers. We carried four of those in think four thousand pounders. A Cookie as it was. The danger was of course that you had to remember to fuse the bombs going out otherwise you came back with the bombs on board. You’d got them but they were dropped safe. Going out you had to cut through. You had to switch off the [unclear] going across the coast and also fuse the bombs going across the coast.
Interviewer: So how did you fuse the bombs then?
HB: You’d got to switch the fuse in the bomb hold [unclear]
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yes. Yes. And if you didn’t fuse them they dropped, they dropped safe. When you came back there were no wires hanging down. They were all gone with the bombs. The wires are armed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: Down to [unclear] they pulled the fuse out and armed them. So you came back with the wires there there was a lot of trouble. Yeah. But you didn’t get, I mean you logged it with the navigator. That’s all logged on his [unclear]
Interviewer: Again in your logbook there’s one part in here which says time [unclear] from Lincoln Cathedral to watchtower.
HB: That’s when we –
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: That’s when we did our Peenemunde raid when we did [unclear]. Peenemunde was a target [unclear] because you couldn’t see the target. There were tall trees and woods. [unclear] and incendiaries.
Interviewer: I was going to ask you about that because —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: That was the 17th of August wasn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear] the Peenemunde raid which you were, which you were on. What sort of —
HB: [unclear]
Interviewer: Whereabouts was —
HB: It’s down here.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: 17th of August.
Interviewer: Yeah. The 17th of August. Yeah. Did it say what bomb load you had on there?
HB: There was, that was a Cookie on. [unclear] I think it was the only one. Yeah. One four thousand pound. No. Mainly incendiaries. There were five thousand pounder, four pound incendiaries and thirty pound incendiaries because of the trees and the woods set alight.
Interviewer: And the four thousand that was a blast bomb wasn’t it?
HB: Yeah. That was a Cookie.
Interviewer: That would just blast. Blast everything out as soon as [unclear]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. We had no high incendiaries. No high explosive bombs. Just incendiaries. Yeah. The Berlin one was —
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: [unclear] which we attended.
Interviewer: Peenemunde was just –
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: A rocket.
HB: That was a rocket. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: A rocket site.
HB: Yeah. But you couldn’t, you couldn’t see anything.
Interviewer: You couldn’t see anything.
HB: No. It was all smoke and flames.
Interviewer: That was quite a thing from 9 Squadron.
HB: Yeah. Went on the raid. Yes.
Interviewer: Did you know what target you were attacking on that raid?
HB: We were told what it was at the time. Yes.
Interviewer: Can you remember what [unclear]
HB: [unclear] it was all in [unclear] station. That’s what it is. At the time they were explaining the different bombs.
Interviewer: Right. So, they didn’t say right we need to bomb such and such [unclear]
HB: Yeah. It was all marked. Yeah. At the briefing. It had to be marked because you couldn’t see the ground. So it had to be marked. That was why we were practicing timed and distance run.
Interviewer: And that had just been before the —
HB: Yeah. Before it. You did that anyway in case you couldn’t see the target. That’s why the markers were there.
Interviewer: Right. So [unclear] from Bardney [unclear]
HB: I can’t think.
Interviewer: So you would just leave 9 Squadron.
HB: They were all mixed up anyway and you don’t leave squadron by squadron. You’re all mixed up at night. You can’t see who’s who, where’s where.
Interviewer: Oh, right.
HB: We all took off at the same time. Of course, you did different cross countries to get a different height and you arrived different times at this point.
Interviewer: So you were told what height you had to bomb.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: And then the other squadrons would have been told.
HB: Perhaps a different height.
Interviewer: A different height.
HB: A different height. I think most were trying to get back somehow.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Maximum height of the aeroplanes. You got as high as you can.
Interviewer: I suppose you don’t always go to [unclear]
HB: No.
Interviewer: You actually bomb on [unclear]
HB: You could see them below over the target. You could see aeroplanes below you over the target. [unclear] In fact, the skipper [unclear] like that. If the plane was shot down with bombs going through the [unclear]
Interviewer: Your skipper.
HB: Yeah. He was on his second tour with 467 Squadron I think.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: An Australian squadron and, yeah —
Interviewer: Was he an Aussie then?
HB: No. He was from [unclear]. He went back. I don’t know where he went of course. Perhaps [unclear] get the time.
Interviewer: He was an English person?
HB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. With an English crew. Some of the Aussie crew [unclear] I think. Two of our crew went back with him.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: The rear gunner went back and the wireless operator went back. I think that was it.
Interviewer: And you decided to call it a day and go into training.
HB: Yeah. It was a bit unfortunate because I’d, I was in Northern Ireland. Bishops Court. I was trapped in there and they just lifted the travel ban so my wife could come over there and she’d been there I think a month and was saying about coming a second time and I said, ‘No. Not yet.’ I said, ‘Give me about three or four months and I’ll come back with you.’ I said, ‘I can’t come out and leave on my own.’ So, but he went back. He went back with the other crew. [unclear] but I couldn’t do it really. Wasted that time [unclear]
Interviewer: And you were living in Bardney. Your squadron were in Bardney.
HB: Yeah. Well, it was. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one week of it and the banns were called at Bardney church. My banns. Hers were called in London and I was on standby for a week when I came back so we had my honeymoon in Bardney.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Oh yeah. I finished.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Came back a couple of weeks just in case there was.
Interviewer: Right.
HB: Hopefully not before.
Interviewer: [unclear] you might have done more than [unclear] actually.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: Yeah [unclear] anyway. Great wasn’t it [laughs]
Interviewer: You didn’t get called on in the event.
HB: No.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I used to go and wave them off by the caravan.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: But I wasn’t called on.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I was hoping I wouldn’t be.
Interviewer: [unclear] that week was [unclear]
HB: Yeah. That’s true. Bardney. Then we had a honeymoon in Cornwall. First time we’d been to Cornwall. Then I went off to training flight. Wigtown [unclear] started at.
Interviewer: I’ve heard of Wigtown. Where is Wigtown?
HB: Up on the left of Scotland. Left going up on the, on the western side of Scotland. Went there for I think a training course. I went to two or three places. Then I was posted to Bishops Court which was a great posting. Used to go into Dublin. [unclear]
Interviewer: And was [unclear]
HB: It was a good station.
Interviewer: A good station was it?
HB: Good station. Good Mess. Nice people there. It was great. Great fun as well.
Interviewer: Yeah. Good. And was it laid back or was it regimental?
HB: No. No. Not really no. None of us. In fact, I was told off one of the days [unclear] I had it being a bit laid back on the squadron and [unclear] squadron.
Interviewer: So if you had some officer who didn’t —
HB: You saluted but that’s it. As I say when you go to a training flight I went over the coast once and [unclear] I never got a commission. We stayed together as NCOs. A couple of fellows in the beginning. We were friends together. [unclear] and we stayed [unclear]
Interviewer: Did you ever take anyone up when you did any practice runs? Did you ever take any of the ground crew or anybody that [unclear]
HB: Initially.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: No we used to officially take people on ops. The odd one. On that [unclear] Phil Wyatt [unclear] he was, Phil Wyatt was just a spare bod at the bottom.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: This was the Cologne —
HB: Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: Three tours.
HB: And he came with his friends as we did ours. He [unclear] with us on an operation.
Interviewer: Oh, just on the station.
HB: As a spare bod.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: And his pilot on operations.
Interviewer: So that that bombing certificate there. that tells you —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were within so many yards of the —
HB: Yeah, I think so. You got to within the aiming point area I think. Yeah. That’s what the claim is. But he was with us and we used to take Army people up occasionally. Ground jobs got in the way a bit. For experience on the operations. [unclear] the other way. Tucked away somewhere.
Interviewer: And that was on an operation.
HB: That was on operations. Yeah. Sometimes. But we only came once with the beginners. That was part way. I think we were going to Cologne. [pause] We were asked on different, the thirteenth trip, fourteenth trip to go to [unclear] They asked. We’d done fourteen. We’d stay home with the rest of them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: So we didn’t go on that.
Interviewer: There was a lot of Bardney, well 9 Squadron people.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Went to 97 Squadron.
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: There was a lot of them went.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: That must have been, that must have been good because —
HB: Yeah.
Interviewer: They wouldn’t have just anybody.
HB: No. No.
Interviewer: You had to prove your —
HB: You had to be a good pilot.
Interviewer: You know he had to prove himself.
HB: Yeah. That’s what the crews said. No, we don’t want another tour. We’ve done fourteen. We’ll finish on the tour. It might change our luck.
Interviewer: Yeah.
HB: A lot of it was luck.
Interviewer: What was it like waiting for your thirtieth then? The final one.
HB: Yeah. Very very worrying. A bit worrying it was. In fact, yes, the last trip. The last trip was always a worry. You know, you don’t think of anything other than [unclear] You can’t handle. You can’t handle it. The last one was a bit [pause] yes a bit nervous. Anxious to get back.
Interviewer: You had a couple of beers when you got back off that.
HB: Oh yeah. More than that. More. Although I was getting married a couple of days later and the crew came down to London. Down by train to London. They came for the wedding. It was great. Yeah. We had more in common.
Interviewer: [unclear] people I’ve spoken to they used to get a ride when they were going north or wherever. One of the pilots would —
HB: Would take them up there.
Interviewer: Give them a ride.
HB: Yeah. We didn’t.
Interviewer: [unclear] or something like that.
HB: Yeah. We didn’t have that.
Interviewer: Or down London way. You didn’t do anything like that.
HB: No. we went by train. Yes, by train. I think you’ve got pilots take more chances [unclear] I think the skipper went a couple of times.
Interviewer: I was thinking did any of your crew have any other peculiarities before they got in the, in the air. You hear about some of them peeing on the —
HB: Yeah. They pee’d on the tailwheel.
Interviewer: On the tailwheel.
HB: Tailwheel. Yeah. Yeah. They did that. And I was taking their lucky charms. Their lucky mascot.
Interviewer: Did you have anything?
HB: No. I used to carry an old raincoat and a pair of socks just in case we were shot down. My father’s old raincoat I used to carry all rolled up and stuffed in by the parachute. Stuffed in the —
Interviewer: I’m sorry. Who’s raincoat?
HB: My father’s old raincoat. One of my father’s old raincoats.
Interviewer: Why?
HB: Just so you had something to wear if you were shot down. A pair of socks. They were never used.
Interviewer: So you’d never ever use your escape —
HB: No.
Interviewer: Your escape kit.
HB: No. You’d get it each night but you never used it.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: You’d hand them back in. Yeah.
Interviewer: What about [unclear]
HB: We didn’t have them.
Interviewer: You didn’t but did the pilot?
HB: No. [unclear]
Interviewer: And did you ever get any parachute training?
HB: No. We didn’t. We did dinghy drill. I know we did a dinghy drill.
Interviewer: In the, in the tank at Bardney.
HB: In the tank at Bardney.
Interviewer: Whereabouts was that then? Was it on the actual airfield?
HB: Oh yes. It was on the airfield. Yeah. On the airfield. Just at the side of the airfield. [unclear] We used to get a dinghy down and climb in.
Interviewer: [unclear]
HB: I think it was in between the hangars was it? I can’t remember. It was near the hangars anyway. Yeah. On the side. out on the outskirts. We used to go along and play around with the dinghy drill. We did the training. [unclear] Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you, did you go on when you were actually taken up and did the gun tests and things did you have to [unclear] as well?
HB: Yeah. We did. We did a test firing and then we got out to sea. Only out at sea.
Interviewer: And that was [unclear]
HB: The mid-upper and rear testing guns.
Interviewer: And you would have to get [unclear] —
HB: Which meant they had to be cleaned again but [unclear] You get little plastic caps on the end to stop them. They’d go off when you fired them. Stops the moisture.
Interviewer: That was, that would be the armourer’s job [unclear]
HB: No. You clean those guns. You do the guns.
Interviewer: Oh, do you?
HB: Yeah. Do your own.
Interviewer: Oh right.
HB: Firearms. [unclear] the ammunition, make sure it was [unclear]. The armourer helped you a bit but you would do the gun cleaning.
Collection
Citation
Roger Audis, “Interview with Hugh Brewer,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 13, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/52896.