3
25
227
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10650/PPayneR1505.2.jpg
3907a298ebf0f240399bc9cc473175c1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reg Payne's crew
Description
An account of the resource
Seven airmen in a line wearing flying gear and Mae Wests. One man has no life jacket. A caption supplied with the photograph reads 'his [Reg Payne's] crew when the pilot was Sir Michael Beetham - this was the crew in the plane that crashed near East Kirkby'.
'From the left
Fred Ball - Rear Gunner - was killed in the accident
Les Bartlett - Bomb Aimer
Michael Beetham - Pilot
Frank Swinyard - Navigator
Reg Payne - WOP/Air Gunner
Donald Moor - Flight Engineer - was killed in the accident
Jock Higgins - Mid Upper Gunner'.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Format
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One b/w photocopied sheet
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PPayneR1505
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
navigator
pilot
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10654/PPayneR1706.2.jpg
159404936ab96ee8ba4b3699b7729414
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10654/APayneR170827.1.mp3
1de45d8e74c9ad679e3453cc09064e7f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Reg Payne. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place on Friday the 25th of August 2017 at Mr Payne’s home in Kettering. Also present is Mr Payne’s son, David. Ok, Reg. Thanks for doing this interview. What I’d like to ask you, just tell me, the first thing I want you to tell me is where, where were you born?
RP: Where was I born? I was born in Kettering.
MC: You were born in Kettering.
RP: Yeah. Only just the other side of this town. Kettering.
MC: And what date was that?
RP: What date. It was 11th of March 1923.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what, your parents had lived here for a while.
RP: My parents, they were born and bred in this.
MC: Oh, Kettering as well.
RP: They were, they were all local. Local Kettering people. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. What did your dad do then?
RP: He worked at Freeman Hardy and Willis’.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Boot, boot and shoe factory.
MC: Great.
RP: Made famous.
MC: Famous for shoes in Kettering.
RP: Famous. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And your mum? She —
RP: Mum. She also worked in one of the factories of course but on a closing machine. You know, as a, as a machinist.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: On the on the boot and shoe, you know, building.
MC: Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So what about school? I mean obviously you went to Infant School in Kettering. Or all your school years were in Kettering?
RP: I just went to a very local school.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: In Kettering. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Just an ordinary, ordinary —
MC: Enjoy your school days?
RP: I did. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And what Secondary School? Which one? Which Secondary School? Can you remember where it was?
RP: Well, it [laughs] wasn’t a very high-class school it but I mean it was, I’ll say one thing it was the parish church school —
MC: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: In Kettering.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: And they were very, we did a lot of backwards and forwards to the church all the time. It was very publicised that way.
MC: How old were you when you left school?
RP: Fourteen.
MC: Fourteen. And what did you do then? What? Did you go, what job did you do?
RP: Yeah. Fourteen [pause]
MC: You left school.
RP: Oh —
MC: Yeah. Go on.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You left school at fourteen.
RP: Fourteen yeah.
MC: So, what was your first job?
RP: Yeah. Fourteen. I worked at, at Tresham College.
MC: Oh yeah.
RP: Yeah. Well, no to start with, I think to start with, that’s right I went in a, in a factory.
MC: Oh yeah.
RP: The factory making shoe machinery and and, you know, making shoe machinery and sold it all abroad. But, but later, later I I left there and I I actually, I actually went to Tresham College as a, as a technician there.
MC: Oh, so looking after their equipment and stuff.
RP: Oh yeah. You see at Tresham College they did, they taught engineers there you see.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: And once, once I’d been in a factory for, for about four, four years probably as a charge hand, you know I applied for a job and got a job at Tresham College. But again all it was there, Tresham, Tresham College you’d got a lot of machinery in there because they taught, they taught you know shoemaking and you know stitching and all that sort of thing they had a lot of machinery as well as plumbing materials.
MC: So, did you do anything else before you joined the Air Force? Were you involved in anything?
RP: No. No.
MC: What about the Home Guard and things like that?
RP: I was in the Home Guard. Yeah.
MC: You were in the Home Guard.
RP: The Home Guard. Yeah. What’s that? [pause] Home Guard. RAF. Oh yeah. Yeah.
DP: He’s telling you Mike things that are quite out of, stop that.
[recording paused]
MC: So, we carry on Reg. You were, you were in the Home Guard when you, when you were at, when you were working with the —
RP: Yeah. Yeah. I was in the in the Home Guard, I think when I was about, I must have been about sixteen I should think, mustn’t I?
MC: Yeah. Seventeen, yeah. Yeah.
RP: I wasn’t very old.
MC: So, so when when did you join the RAF? How old were you?
RP: I should think very close on eighteen.
MC: Eighteen.
RP: I wasn’t quite eighteen.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: When I actually went in the RAF.
MC: What made you choose the RAF?
RP: Well, I was, I was always interested in aeroplanes you know, and but the thing is if you waited, if you waited ‘til, ‘til you were eighteen when you were called up you went where they put you.
MC: Yeah.
RP: So, if so when if before you were called up if you volunteered for what you wanted to do you, you arranged it.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know, you —
MC: So, anybody else in your family in the RAF, were they? Were they in the Services?
RP: I’ve got, I’ve got a young brother Brian, yeah but I don’t think, I don’t think he’s ever been in the, because he was born, he was born after the war.
MC: Oh right.
RP: My young brother. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you chose the RAF because of your interest.
RP: Yeah. Brian.
DP: What did you just say?
RP: Brian never went? Did he go in the RAF?
[recording paused]
MC: So, I mean basically you’re saying that you had an older brother that was in the RAF as well.
RP: My older brother. Yeah. And he, and he was, he was shot down.
MC: Oh, was he?
RP: He was a prisoner of war. Yeah.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. He was on, he was on 49 Squadron. I was with 50 Squadron.
MC: Oh. 49. Fiskerton.
MC: What, what job did he do? What was his —
RP: He was a wireless operator.
MC: Oh, was he a wireless operator?
RP: Like me.
MC: Ran in the family. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, ok. What, having joined the Air Force where did, where did you go first? Where was your basic training?
RP: At Blackpool to start with.
MC: Oh, you went to Blackpool, did you?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Oh, yeah. So how long, do you know how long —
RP: Blackpool. At Blackpool we spent the first, the first four or five months at Blackpool learning the Morse Code.
MC: Oh, did you?
RP: Yeah. In the tram sheds at Blackpool.
MC: Oh really.
RP: Yeah.
MC: What about marching and drill training? Where did you, where did you do that?
RP: All, in the mornings, all morning until lunchtime we were on Morse. Morse Code.
MC: Yeah.
RP: We were in the tram sheds at Blackpool.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And in the wintertime the big doors kept folding back and the trams kept coming in and and then we got all the cold air from the, from the north [laughs] from the North Sea coming in and we were sitting. We were sitting at tables like, you know.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Doing Morse. Yeah. On there.
MC: So you was there for a fair few months then.
RP: Oh, we were there, we were there I should think for about four months I should think.
MC: So how did you come to be chosen to, choose to become a wireless operator. Why a wireless operator? Did they choose it or did you choose it?
RP: Well, when you, it was a, it was a trade in the Air Force, you see.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: You could, you could either, you could either be a gunner, a rear gunner or something like that or you could have been a navigator or you could be a wireless operator you see.
MC: Yeah. You must have had the aptitude for being, being a wireless operator.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. That’s —
RP: And being, you know, being, being a wireless operator the biggest thing was learning Morse Code, you know was, you know it took you about six months you see.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: To really use it properly. To —
MC: So, after you, after Blackpool where did you go from Blackpool then? Did you carry on with your Morse?
RP: No. I went to Blackpool. Went down somewhere in Wiltshire. I’m not, I can’t think [pause] Somewhere near Devizes or somewhere down there.
MC: I know. One of the Radio Schools.
RP: It was. It was, yeah. And this is, this is where we went much deeper into radio learning about valves.
MC: Oh right, yeah. I know. Would it have been Yatesbury?
RP: Yatesbury. Yeah.
MC: Did you go to Yatesbury?
RP: Yatesbury. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Number 2 Radio School.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yatesbury.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You learned all about different valves. Tetrodes, Pentodes Triodes.
MC: Oh, my word.
RP: You know.
MC: You still remember all those.
RP: Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I remember those, yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, anyway, so Yatesbury was you you did all your training.
RP: Radio. Yeah.
MC: Radio operating.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Operator training on the equipment.
RP: And wireless as well, you know. Valves and aerials and that sort of thing.
MC: Your technical side.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And did you fly then during your —
RP: Did?
MC: Did you fly then at Yatesbury?
RP: At Yatesbury? I think they I think they took us up. They took us up I think either once or twice. That’s all.
MC: Do you know what aircraft they would be in?
RP: I think it was a Dragon Rapide, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Biplane was it?
MC: Did you?
RP: Yeah.
MC: [unclear] Yeah.
RP: Yeah, and there was just the odd wireless set in there with, and we were perhaps just allowed to send a small message on it in turn, you know. Perhaps about four of us in the aircraft and, and we would be sort of call the station up with call signs you know and, and just send a short message to them and that’s the first time we ever, that was the first time we ever sent a message, you know. Radio from, from aircraft. You know, that’s, that was just the start of it.
MC: So, how long were you at Yatesbury then?
RP: I I can’t really remember.
MC: No.
RP: Well, I’ve, I’ve got a little logbook there.
MC: So, when you finished at Yatesbury where did you go from there? Where did you go to from Yatesbury? You must have gone to, did you go to Operational Training Unit? No, you wouldn’t have. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So —
RP: Yeah.
MC: Going from Yatesbury you went to North Coates and you think there was, that was —
RP: North. North Coates. Yeah. I I think I was sent, I was sent to North Coates because the place, the place where I was at at the time there was an epidemic I think on the, on the airfield of some, some complaint and we, and they, they got rid of us.
MC: Yeah. Oh, I see. And then you went up to, you said South Kensington. Was that crewing up?
RP: To South Kensington. No. That was the Albert Hall.
MC: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: That was, that was ours—
MC: That would be on —
RP: That was our classrooms.
MC: Oh right.
RP: The Albert Hall.
MC: Oh. Oh right. Yeah. So that would have been while you were still doing your wireless operator training.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And then you, and then obviously part of that was a gunnery course. Part of your training was a gunnery course.
RP: A gunnery course. Yeah.
MC: Where was that? Stormy Down was that?
RP: It’s not —
MC: Stormy Down.
RP: It’s not mentioned there.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Stormy Down.
RP: I think, I think we all went down to Stormy Down. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: That was, that’s down on, that’s on the south coast somewhere, isn’t it?
MC: Yeah. I think it is.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And after, after your gunnery course and that you then did training in some Ansons. Anson aircraft.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Where was that? Can you remember where that was?
RP: It would be right, right in the front of the —
MC: Yeah. [pause] That was the basically completion of your wireless operator —
RP: Yeah.
MC: Training, wasn’t it? Yeah. And then —
RP: Yeah, because in the wireless operator training you know, you did air. Air to air ground messages and things.
MC: Yeah. What [pause] after the trade training, wireless operator training when, what stage did you crew up? When you get your crew together. That was before you went to the OTU, wasn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Where was that? Can you remember where you got, you met up with Mike Beetham and them and you —
RP: Do you know it’s —
MC: So, you got, so you, you crewed up with Mike Beetham because there would have been five of you wouldn’t there to go to the OTU. Which OT, Operational Training Unit did you go to? 14 OTU.
RP: 14, yeah.
MC: Number 14 OTU.
RP: Well, Market Harborough was one of them.
MC: Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Market Harborough.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That would be, yeah that would be 14 OTU probably.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And which aircraft were you flying now?
RP: Wellingtons.
MC: Wellingtons. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s with, obviously with Mike Beetham.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And then that would be Mike Beetham. Les. Les Bartlett.
RP: Les. Les Bartlett. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah, and Frank. Frank Swinyard.
MC: Swinyard.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. There would be five of you then at that time.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Wouldn’t there? Because they were in Wellingtons.
RP: Yeah. That’s right. Before. Before we go to —
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And from the OTU you went to [pause] where? Where did you go from there? You must have been gone from a Conversion Unit.
RP: That’s right. On four engine aircraft. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Was that Coningsby or somewhere? Was it? Or —
MC: Where did you go? Was it Wiglsey?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Wigsley.
RP: Wigsley?
MC: Yeah.
RP: That’s right. We were at Wigsley. Yeah.
MC: That’s right. You were —
RP: Yeah.
MC: At 1654 Conversion Unit.
RP: Conversion, yeah.
MC: At Wigsley. Yeah. So, can you remember what aircraft you were flying there? Was it [pause] did you fly in a Halifax? Did you do any of the —
RP: No. We did. We, we did fly in Halifaxes.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: There.
MC: Yeah. And then Lancasters.
RP: Yeah. And then then Lancasters later. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Finished your conversion there and so from, from the Conversion Unit you were posted straight to 50 Squadron. Yeah?
RP: Yeah, but there would be nothing, there would be nothing in between. No.
MC: So, what did you get up to? You know, I mean obviously you were at the OTU and you were at the thing, I mean recreation wise what, you know when you were out and about, you know. Did you go out at all, you know to the local pubs and inns and hostelries?
RP: Well, I mean some of the OTU I did at Desborough.
MC: Oh, did you? Yeah.
RP: Yeah. At Desborough. That was on —
MC: Yeah. That’s Market Harborough way. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I don’t, yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So having joined 50 Squadron you you got the rest of your, oh it must have been at the Conversion, at the Conversion Unit you must have picked up the rest of the crew. Your crew.
RP: That’s right. There’d be a —
MC: Flight engineer.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And another gunner.
RP: Yeah.
[pause]
RP: Yeah. Now they’d be a flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Probably. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah, because Fred, our rear gunner he was with me, you know, right, more or less at the start. The rear gunner. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: On there.
MC: Yeah. So, arriving at 50 Squadron, Skellingthorpe what was your impressions of the base when you got there?
RP: Well, it was, it was 50 Squadron and also 61 Squadron.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Was there, wasn’t it? They were on one side of the airfield. We were, we were on other. You know. And I still think we had to do quite a bit of flying there. You know, it would have been, well quite a bit. You know, we had to do some flying before we, they ever put us on operations.
MC: Yeah. I gather you were there.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know.
RP: And I think the navigator and pilot they had, they went out on an operation, on an operation as passengers, you know. Even before we did.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: And they, they come back and told us all about it.
MC: Yeah. So, your first operation was to Berlin.
RP: Berlin. Yeah.
MC: And what was your impression of your first operation?
RP: [laughs] Well [laughs] well it wasn’t, you know. You know, you’d think they’d give us something a bit more simple wouldn’t you? Really. You know, than, than go to Berlin.
MC: So was it fairly uneventful? I mean it wouldn’t have been uneventful but I mean —
RP: Oh, there was, there was on [pause] on, does it, it gives the losses does it? On there?
MC: Yeah. I mean you’ve got in in your logbook.
RP: Does it mention any? Any losses on there?
MC: Thirty two missing.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Thirty two missing it says in your logbook.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. So that’s, that was our first start.
MC: Yeah.
RP: There.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then it was Berlin, Berlin, Berlin.
MC: So, your second operation was Berlin as well.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And your third operation was Berlin as well.
RP: Yeah. Berlin. Three Berlins.
MC: Your first three operations were to Berlin.
RP: That was all in about a week, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Goodness Me. That’s something. I know.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So I see.
RP: And how many aircraft did we lose in, in the three?
MC: Yeah. A lot. A lot. You know, fifty six missing you’ve got down here now.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So and there was, hair raising raids weren’t they? To Berlin.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And they were quite long. They were about eight hours, wasn’t it? Berlin trips.
RP: Mostly. Mostly. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Because, because they, they used to fly to Berlin. Not a, not a direct route there and a direct route back, you know. They would perhaps, they would perhaps head over Norway somewhere first.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then come down from the north then instead of, you know [pause] I think it’s mainly, mainly to the wear and tear on the Germans flying you know. Whether they, whether their aircraft could keep up with us.
MC: Yeah. [pause] You did a [pause] on the, you did a dinghy search. Did a dinghy search.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Did that, that doesn’t count as an operation, does it?
RP: No.
MC: No.
RP: No. It was, I think it was, it was just something of, you know an extended flight and then —
MC: Just to see if you could, looking for people.
RP: Probably interesting. Interesting. Well, yeah.
MC: Looking for some. Well, looking for people who had gone down.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, having done three trips to Berlin which was quite hair raising you then did a trip to Leipzig which was a fair trip. Was that eventful or did, what happened there?
RP: [laughs] Well, well a lot, nearly all the trips were here where you you saw, you saw loads of aircraft being shot down. You know, when you, when you, when you were looking out the, you know the turrets and things or if you were in, I used to be in the astrodome.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Quite a bit. That was my position in there. Because I used to, I used to take all the, take all the star shots for the navigator through, through the astrodome, you know. And I, and I used to tell him what stars were, were available and you know, he’d say, ‘Well, get me a shot on that.’ That sort of thing.
MC: You mention in your logbook on your fourth operation to Leipzig that you landed at Wittering. Wittering, because you were damaged by a JU88.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You were damaged by a JU88.
RP: Yeah.
MC: On the Leipzig trip. Yeah. Was that, that must have been a bit hair raising?
RP: Well, that’s right. It hit us. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. We actually, luckily, luckily no damage was done to anything definite like, you know. If it had, if it had sort of caught us in, hit us in the petrol tanks or something like that, you know we, we would have lost probably all our petrol. We wouldn’t have got home. Or sometimes if it, sometimes if it hit us and petrol was leaking and it, and it, and it got round to the, anywhere near the exhaust because there was flame, flames coming out of the exhaust you know. The whole wing would have caught fire then.
MC: Yeah. You do mention that you landed at Wittering short of fuel.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, I mean, it’s obviously —
RP: Yeah.
MC: If you were taking evasive action.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You would have used a lot of fuel.
RP: We landed, we landed at Wittering quite a lot really because they had, they had a marvellous long runway there. There was two, there was two aerodromes together. There was Wittering and there was another one next to it and they had one big long runway that served the two of them. Massive place.
MC: So, the next one was Frankfurt. Frankfurt. That was, that wasn’t such a long trip to Frankfurt but that was —
RP: Well, well it’s —
MC: That was part of —
RP: It wasn’t as far as Berlin. No. No. There were still some losses though I suppose though were there?
MC: Yeah. Well, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course back to Berlin for your next one.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know. And you mention here that you, that this, this operation to Berlin that you have an incendiary through the starboard inboard.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Tank. So, you were hit by a bomb from above, were you?
RP: That’s right. From our own aircraft. Yeah.
MC: How did you become aware of that? I mean obviously you must have been aware.
RP: Well, I mean you get aircraft flying above you. You don’t, you wouldn’t even, even know they were above you so [laughs] and when, when they, when they, when they bombed you know unluckily you were, you were in the direct path of the bombs.
MC: So, I mean it went through the inboard tank. Did you, obviously you lost fuel from that.
RP: Eh?
MC: You lost fuel from it hitting the tank.
RP: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah, but, but sometimes though does it say where we landed because sometimes, sometimes then if we we’re short of fuel we, you know, we landed —
MC: Yeah. Down at Wittering. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That’s —
RP: Because it’s not so much. It’s not so much, you know coming back, coming back at nights like. If you were short, if we knew you were short of fuel and you were going to return to your own base you, you might be kept circling round the aerodrome for quite some time because if you went to your own aerodrome there was two squadrons there. There would be twenty, twenty aircraft from each. From each Squadron. So you’d perhaps get, you might get about twenty. Twenty. Twenty aircraft circling round and, and you had, you had to wait your turn to land and if you, and if you didn’t have much fuel left you know, you were, you were desperate, you know. You had, you had to call up and tell them, you know you had little or no fuel left and you must land. You know, it’s, you know, it's all these little things cropped up.
MC: So, after yet another, after that incendiary through your tank you, you went back to Berlin again after that.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Another trip to Berlin.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You certainly, you did, you got experience of Berlin. And after that you did a trip to Stettin. Stettin. That’s a long trip.
RP: Stettin. Yeah. That’s a long journey.
MC: Yeah. That —
RP: How long? How long was that?
MC: That was nearly nine hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Nearly nine hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: That’s a, that’s a long old trip that is.
RP: I know. I know it was a long flight.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Obviously, it was uneventful as such, you know. You weren’t attacked there or anything. No. You got away with that one. And Stettin was followed by Brunswick which was relatively a fairly short trip you know but, you mention in your logbook a lot of losses. You know. Different places. And after Brunswick back to Berlin again.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yet again.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, your Berlin trips are mounting up.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You did a lot.
RP: I did ten. Ten to Berlin all together.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. I’m just looking. After that another trip to Berlin. You got [pause] it says, your logbook says, “Berlin spoof attack.” What does that mean? What do you mean by spoof attack? Is that [pause] is that a diversion raid or [pause] Don’t worry.
RP: I I remember, I remember the term spoof attack [pause] unless, unless it was just a few Lancasters that were, that were, that were sent there, you know, to, so the Germans authorities would think, would think, you know It’s Berlin again. You know, and every, they’d all go to, they’d all go to Berlin and yet the actual, the actual operation was at Magdeburg or somewhere. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, after that again right through January ’44 you were, you had two more trips to Berlin. You know.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I find it amazing that you had so many trips to Berlin. Yeah. So you got to [pause] early part of, early part of February ’44 and again you, you were, on the 12th of February ’44 you went on a, I mean all, all these trips were interspersed with training flights aren’t they?
RP: Yeah.
MC: And fighter affiliation. But you had an incident with fighter affiliation, didn’t you? Queenie.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Lost Queenie. Tell us a bit about that. How that happened because you were fighter affiliation and you took an extra.
RP: Oh.
MC: Pilot and two, two gunners up, didn’t you?
RP: That’s when that’s when we had to bale out, isn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. How did that, tell us about that. What was the incident? I gather Michael did the first, took on the first attack, did he? Mike Beetham.
RP: When?
MC: Mike Beetham took on the first attack from the affiliation from the Spitfire.
RP: What, the training? The training flights.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Well, oddly enough, oddly enough when we, when we actually we had got to the dispersal you know to take, to take off another pilot, another pilot joined us. Another pilot joined us and his two gunners. And and, and we had, we, we must I think, I think we only had six in our crew, I think. There was one of them never came. I’m not sure. But I know we had, we had our full crew. Our full crew and then we had this other, this other pilot and his two gunners. And, and so that I think there was ten of us. That’s right. In the aircraft. And we had to go out, we had to fly it over the North Sea, for some distance over the North Sea and we had to pick up a Spitfire. A Spitfire. He was waiting for us, you know about about twenty miles, twenty miles from the coast and we were flying perhaps at about, about sixteen thousand feet. Quite some height. And the fighter affiliation exercise, this other, this other pilot and his two gunners and of course my pilot and our two gunners we we flew and contacted the Spitfire and the Spitfire called us up on the RT, you know. They could talk to each you see on there. And the Spitfire says, ‘When you’re ready. When you’re ready I’ll I’ll come in and start the attacks.’ You see. And, and I think it was, that’s right it it was our, our crew to start with. Our seven. We we called the Spitfire up and told him to, you know carry on. We were ready for him. And he would be attacking us you see and when he, when he got near, you know the rear gunner would be saying, you know, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Starboard quarter up. Prepare to corkscrew to port. Corkscrew to port. Go.’ And of course, the pilot then would listen to the gunner giving details and he’d go in these big spiral dives. You know, to try and [pause] and the Spitfire would be trying to, you know, follow him. You know, to get a deflection on him and, but it, but it was all being recorded you see. It was all, it was all being recorded that so that when, when they, when they got back the air gunners could go to their gunnery section and the film could be shown and and it could all be talked about and whether they took the, you know the correct decisions like there. But, but my two, my two gunners they, they did their term all right. They did their term all right and then we had to, we had to get back up to some height again and then we had to call the Spitfire up and tell him that we were ready because this, this other pilot and his two gunners they were going to do their bit. But, but from the height we were it was a lovely sunny day and I think, what was it? January, was it? Yeah. And it was bitter cold really.
MC: February.
RP: Although it was sunny. Yeah. When, when the, when the other pilot, when he, when he, his two gunners got in and he called the Spitfire up and told him that we were all ready for him, he could commence the exercise they give the thing you know, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Starboard quarter.’ Or wherever it was. And they said, ‘Prepare to corkscrew to port.’ And then they said, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew port. Go.’ And do you know, I’ve never, never been in a Lancaster like that. It was flying along and all of a sudden it didn’t. It didn’t come down like that. It came down like.
MC: Vertical.
RP: Came down like vertical. Vertical. And we were, we were all sitting sort of sideways like, you know. There. And when, when he pulled out, when he pulled out about two or three thousand feet from the sea, when he pulled out from the sea the, the wing from the, from the port outer, that wing it, it suddenly lifted up. It suddenly cracked and it lifted up at an angle. You know, it snapped. The pressure from the air. And and the pilot said, you know, the pilot said, ‘Good God,’ he said, ‘The bloody wing’s on fire.’ You know and then it, and then it started to, flames started coming from it and, and the pilot said, ‘Right everybody abandon aircraft.’ You know, because I mean the plane was, it was sort of coming down at an angle and there was a, there was a, there was a rush then to get out through the —
MC: So, who gave the order to abandon aircraft? Was it Mike? Mike Beetham.
RP: Mike Beetham, I think.
MC: Mike, was it?
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: It wasn’t the second pilot. The other pilot.
RP: No. No. He was the, he was the senior. Senior pilot. The other, he was only a young, young pilot the other, the other fella. Yeah. Yeah. I mean and five of our crew managed to bale out in time and, and just and there was four of his crew but two of them managed to get out.
MC: Three in his crew.
RP: Hmnn?
MC: Three in his crew.
RP: Was it?
MC: Yeah. You said a pilot and two gunners.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
[pause]
MC: Yeah. So —
RP: Yeah. He had, there was the pilot, he was a very young pilot actually. Yeah. But he did have two gunners and they, and they, they never got out. I think, I think that the pilot got out. As far as I know. I mean, I was luckily, luckily I was down at the back door of the Lancaster and, and I had nobody stopping me from getting out and I —
MC: You got out alright.
RP: I baled out.
MC: You didn’t have any problems getting out.
RP: From there. No. But, but whilst I was on the parachute the wing section had come, it had come off the Lancaster all together and it was, it was skimming backwards and forwards in the air like a leaf. Like a leaf. Because I, because I thought to myself, my God, I hope it doesn’t, I hope it doesn’t hit my parachute because that was just it was just sort of just skimming. Floating about on there.
MC: So, so who was lost on your crew?
RP: Both our gunners. Both of our gunners were lost.
MC: Both of your air gunners.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Wait a minute. No. The flight engineer. The flight engineer. He was killed. Yeah. On there. Yeah. Flight engineer and the rear gunner.
MC: But they didn’t get out of the aircraft.
RP: They, they didn’t get out. No. They went down with it. And the, and two members of this other crew they didn’t get out because there was four killed in it all together.
MC: Yeah.
RP: In there.
MC: I gather, I mean you, I think you’ve told the story about one or, one or two of them didn’t take a parachute.
RP: What?
MC: Didn’t take a parachute.
RP: Oh, that was our flight engineer. Yeah. Of course. He hadn’t got a parachute. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right because, because on entering the aircraft, you know waiting for, waiting for everybody to get in the aircraft I said, ‘Don where’s your, where’s your ‘chute?’ He said, ‘Oh, its only a training flight Reg.’ He said, ‘I’m not,’ he said, ‘I’m bothered about wearing a ‘chute.’ You see. That’s right, yeah. And that cost him his life on there. Of course, he went down with the aircraft. Yeah.
MC: So where did you land?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Where did you land?
RP: Well, luckily, luckily when I baled out I was quite high up and all I could see was the North Sea below me and it was lovely sunshine but I was, but I was drifting. I was drifting towards the coast and and we hadn’t got Mae Wests on. We hadn’t even got Mae Wests. So if we’d have come down in the sea, you know in December even a mile from the coast.
MC: Yeah. February. Yeah.
RP: February, was it?
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I know, I know it was winter time. Yeah. On there. And I thought my gosh, you know but luckily, but luckily I seemed to be drifting along nearer to the, I could see the coast in the distance and as we got nearer and nearer of course I was getting a bit lower but, but in the end I passed over the Norfolk coast and —
MC: Lincolnshire.
RP: And I landed quite near East Kirkby airfield.
MC: That’s a long way inland. You must have drifted a long way.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. It must, must be about ten, ten miles inside, inside —
MC: Probably more. Probably more.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah And, yeah, so you landed near East Kirkby.
RP: Yeah. Because I I seemed to keep drifting and seeing the, you know seeing the fields going by me.
MC: Yeah. What, what I find amazing is that that was on the 12th of February. You lost two crew members and yet you got two new members and you were flying again on operations on the 19th. A week later.
RP: Yeah [laughs] yeah.
MC: So, you got —
RP: But they, they’d have, they’d have like what they called odd bods like that weren’t, weren’t probably members of a crew but they were there I suppose —
MC: But —
RP: For that reason.
MC: It doesn’t seem enough time to give you to recover from that. Unless they thought the opposite. They thought they would put you straight back on operations.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Having had an incident like that.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Baled out.
RP: Yeah. were we long, sort of in there? Was it very long in my logbook when they —
MC: No. It’s only a week.
RP: Was it?
MC: Yeah. A week from when you baled out to when you went on your next operation.
RP: Really?
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know, so, I mean, you flew your next operation to Leipzig.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know.
RP: Yeah. That was a long, fair —
MC: Seven hours. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, I mean, so who were your new crew members then? So, oh it’s [pause] Who was your new crew members? Can you remember who replaced [pause] who was your flight engineer. Was it? [pause] No. I’m trying to think now. Was it Arthur smith? It wasn’t Arthur Smith was it? No.
RP: No. No. I’m [pause] I’m trying to think. Do you know, I’m trying to think which, which of our crews we we lost. Oh, one was Fred Ball.
MC: Yeah. Fred Ball.
RP: Fred Ball the rear gunner. He was. He was one that was killed and also, also the flight engineer. Don. Don Knight is it? Don. Our flight engineer.
MC: So, you got a new flight engineer.
RP: So we, so we had to get a new flight engineer and a new rear gunner.
MC: Yeah, a new rear gunner.
Yeah. Took, yeah —
So it didn’t take long. You were up again flying in a week
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Up again and flying in a week.
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
MC: I mean. I mean —
RP: But we, there was no, no sort of holiday.
MC: I mean, you know you baled out on the 12th. On the 19th, you know, you did half an hour’s flight test. Air test on the 19th. And then on the evening of the 19th you went on operations to Leipzig.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I find, you know that’s quite amazing.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And then of course ultimately on the 25th of February you did the Augsburg raid which, which is, you know that’s an eight hour trip and that was a, a hairy, was, did you you know was there anything hairy about that. I mean —
RP: Where?
MC: Augsburg.
RP: Augsburg.
MC: Yeah. Do you remember much about it?
RP: Not really. No.
MC: Oh, you do say you returned on three engines.
RP: Yeah.
MC: In your logbook. Can you remember that?
RP: It what?
MC: Returned on three engines.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. In logbook. So obviously a successful operation.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I mean you actually did, you know [pause] ten ops to Berlin in that. That time. So next was Stuttgart. You, you went on to Stuttgart. So that was —
RP: Yeah.
MC: Well, the targets were changing then from Berlin, weren’t they?
RP: Yeah well, that’s right. They varied it. Yeah.
MC: And then you did Marseilles.
RP: Well, that was, that was a cushy one, I think, wasn’t it? What we called? Yeah. A much shorter one, was it?
MC: Well, yeah. It says, yeah. I mean your logbook says that you, “Ops, Aircraft factory and airfield at Marseilles. Bombed at ten thousand feet.” Aiming point. You landed at Fiskerton.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Under FIDO.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So obviously it was, you were fogbound.
RP: That’s Fog Intensive Dispersal Of.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: That’s on their big long runway up there.
MC: Yeah.
RP: We, we landed on that once or twice, you know. Over there. That’s where my brother was. He was.
MC: Yeah.
RP: He was flying from there.
MC: I mean, the thing is at Marseilles you think it would be a short trip and of course your trips perhaps it was a cushy trip but according to your logbook you were out for nearly nine hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And you must have been, you know trying to find somewhere to land or something like that.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Either that or it was a, it was a diversion you know. Sending you out on, on one route and then you sort of switch back.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know, to, to mislead the Germans as to where you were going, I suppose.
MC: So, following that and Marseilles you were back to Berlin again. So, you know it’s this is on the 24th of March you were back to Berlin.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And what, I mean it says here you landed at Foulsham. Any idea. I don’t know Foulsham.
RP: Where?
MC: Foulsham.
RP: Foulsham, as in, in Norfolk.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Then you started Essen. You did the Essen trip. And of course Nuremberg.
RP: Well, that, that was, that was a real nasty one. Yeah.
MC: Yeah, I can imagine.
RP: That was about the worst. It was easily the worst. The worst trip we ever went on. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. What was it like? I mean, what do you remember about it?
RP: Well, I remember. I remember it was, it was a moonlight. There was, there was a moon still showing but, but at briefing they said that there’d be cloud cover so that the moon shouldn’t, you know, wouldn’t really worry us too much. But that was, that was a load of poppycock because when we, when we took off there was all the clear sky there and the moon there and you could, you could see other aircraft there. And, and the route, the route was over Holland on the way. And at one stage over Holland the Germans were shooting aircraft down and leaving a trail of them. You could, you could look back on where, where you’d come from and you could see aircraft burning on the ground from, for miles back there. I think they, they shot about twenty, twenty or thirty down, you know in about, about a sixty mile flight. You could see all the aircraft burning on the ground because they’d all got their, they’d all got their full bomb loads on you see and you know, and two thirds of the petrol as well.
MC: So, I mean obviously you, you got through unscathed.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You got through unscathed.
RP: That’s right. Yeah.
MC: So, I mean what do you put that down to Reg? Do you [pause] luck or pilot skill?
RP: Well, I think, I think our two gunners really kept their eyes open and if, if they, if they said there was aircraft, aircraft on the starboard side sort of thing. I noticed Mike Beetham would move over on, over the port side more and, you know and he, he sort of tried to keep away from where there was a lot of activity. But, but on that, looking back though, looking back where we come across Holland you could see all, you could see all the Lancasters burning on the ground. You know, for about twenty miles back you could see them because I mean they, they’d all got, they’d all got, you know, two, two thirds of their petrol. They’d all, you know, they got. They all, nearly, well nearly three quarters of their petrol there and they’d got all the bombs and ammunition on there that was all burning.
MC: Yeah. So, having bombing Nuremberg what about the trip back? Was that as bad?
RP: Not really. I think, I think what they, what they did they went back on a slightly different route. I think, you know instead of doing big diversions I think they, they cut a lot of corners off you know and I think we took our own course more or less back rather, rather than follow the course we were given in there.
MC: So, this brings us into April ’44 and then you started, you know, ops to places like Toulouse, you know.
RP: Well, Toulouse. That was, that was an easy one, wasn’t it? France, I think, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Toulouse. And then, then you did Aachen which was —
RP: Yeah. I mean, they called those, you know just a, they called them a piece of cake. That was the term.
MC: I can’t imagine any of these operations being a piece of cake.
RP: Well, no. a piece of cake. Yeah.
MC: No. No. No.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And obviously we were getting close to the Normandy invasion time in, in April. We’re talking about April, May so you were actually, you did an op to Paris. I mean obviously some of these would have been the marshalling yards, wouldn’t they?
RP: Yeah.
MC: La Chappelle. Can you remember much about these?
RP: No. Well, they were [laughs] they were they were only about four or five hour trips, weren’t they?
MC: Yeah. You’re right. Yeah, of course.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Your trips. Relatively speaking.
RP: We called, we called those a piece of cake.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. La Chappelle and Paris were four and a half hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Then Brunswick you did.
RP: Yeah.
MC: That’s a —
RP: Yeah
MC: Reasonably long trip to Brunswick. Schweinfurt.
RP: Yeah. That’s a bit farther. Yeah.
MC: Eight and a half hours, yeah.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And a couple of trips to Bordeaux. A couple of raids to Bordeaux.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Not much about those though. They were fairly, the French trips over there. I mean, I mean you when we talk about them I mean they were Bordeaux you’ve got eight hours and seven hour trips.
RP: Yeah. Quite a long distance.
MC: A fair way down, isn’t it? Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And then what, what were at Bordeaux? What was it you were bombing at Bordeaux? Do you know? Can you remember? I mean it says St Médard —
RP: It was what?
MC: St Médard.
RP: Saint. Saint. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it was a German like sea traffic I think. I think it was probably to do with the German sea transport. You know, for them coming over here. You know. If, if they thought that the Germans were preparing like for, for a mass of sort of Army people to come over in sea transport. We would be sent out to where it was being, where it was being, you know, where it was being assembled together and go out and bomb the place, you know. To prevent, to prevent them being able to come over here. Yeah.
MC: So, your tour completed with a raid to Toulouse again.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So obviously—
RP: Toulouse.
MC: Yeah. I’m not sure. What would b at Toulouse? Can you remember what Toulouse was?
RP: I don’t know. I think it was mostly —
MC: Would it have been aircraft? No. It wouldn’t have been an aircraft factory. It might have been an aircraft factory. So that completed your tour.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, from there, so that was, that was you finished your flying with Mike Beetham.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And then you were posted out from 50 Squadron then.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Where did you go then? You went [pause] So you would have gone to 17 OTU.
RP: Silverstone.
MC: Silverstone, yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Near home.
MC: Yeah. Near home. Of course. Yeah. you had been —
RP: That was only a bike ride away.
MC: Yeah. It’s just down the road. So you were instructing there were you?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You were instructing there.
RP: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I used to sit, I used to sit with a student. There’d be, there’d be a pilot, a student pilot and then there’d be a, then there’d be a you know a pilot with him you know to to assess him like and also there’d be his wireless operator and I would sit next to him and I’d be checking to make sure. Going through everything with the, with the wireless operator. You know, just to make sure that he was doing his job properly.
MC: So where was Turweston?
RP: Turweston? It was about two fields away from from from Silverstone.
MC: Oh, I see. So it was a satellite of Silverstone.
RP: It was a satellite.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, you flew out from Turweston.
RP: Yeah, it was, yeah, quite near Brackley.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So you were, were there for, for —
RP: I was there about a year, I think
MC: Yeah.
RP: I used, I used to bike home from there.
MC: Did you?
RP: Yeah.
MC: How far was that then? How far is it there from —
RP: It would be about, it would be about fourteen miles to Northampton probably. Then probably fourteen miles you know, and fourteen, fourteen miles probably from Northampton. Northampton to Kettering.
MC: Yeah. So that was, you were fit in those days, Reg.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You were fit in those days, Reg.
RP: Yeah. But the thing is you see there was hardly any traffic on the roads you see. There was very little traffic on the roads during the war.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Because sometimes when I, when I was coming back, when I was, if I’d been home at Kettering when I was on my way back to Turweston or or Silverstone. Once I got, once I got past Northampton I’d, I’d meet quite a few WAAFs on bikes. They’d have been staying in Northampton. They were on their way back you see and then you’d team up with them and you’d say, ‘Hello girls.’ You’d say, ‘Where, where are you? Turweston or Silverstone?’ And they’d perhaps say, some would say Silverstone. Some would say Turweston and you’d perhaps ride up the road four abreast, you know. On bikes because you, there wouldn’t be any, there wouldn’t be any traffic, you know. Especially, especially between eight and 9 o’clock in the morning. Amazing isn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So did you get friendly with any of those WAAFs, Reg?
RP: And the road now is terrible, isn’t it?
MC: Did you get friendly with any of those WAAFs?
RP: No. No. [Laughs] No. No. No, I was already, I was already very friendly with Freda so, you know, up in Lincoln. Yeah.
MC: So, you were there. So, at Turweston quite a while. Until about June ’45.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That was, so as the war ended.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, finishing at Turweston where did you go then? You went —
RP: Turweston [laughs] I came off flying altogether.
MC: Yeah.
RP: I came and I attended a, I attended a course up in, up near Blackpool and it was to do, it was to do with RAF equipment.
MC: Oh yeah. Number 1 Air Transport Depot, was that?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Finished.
MC: So you flew out to Castel Benito.
RP: Yeah.
MC: In a Liberator of all things.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: That was, and then from there to, oh you had, you say you were flying out to Persia then, was it? India.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Oh, you went out to India. So, I see where. I see, so you joined, you were a passenger on a Liberator to Benito, Castel Benito to Almaza. Almaza Shaibah. Mauripur, India. So that was a long trip wasn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Out there.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Flying out there in a Dakota to — so you finished up in —
RP: Rangoon.
RP: Rangoon.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, what were doing at Rangoon?
RP: We were, we were dispersing of RAF equipment. Or, or dealing with it. Whether, whether it could be, whether, you know, whether it could be, if it was worth salvaging like. If it, if it was needing work doing to it and it was reasonable, you know they, it was, it was repaired like. But if the, if the work needed on it was, you know was quite a lot it was, it was scrapped. The material was scrapped. I mean they could be like even a car like, you know that, or RAF vehicles that, you know that if, if little, if little or nothing more or less wanted doing to it the, the all the, all the RAF workmen you know, the skilled electricians and car maintenance people they’d put it right but if they decided that it was too much work wanted involving it was just, it was just pulverised and scrapped. Just pulled apart. There was a big building there and, in Rangoon and you know with the sort of a stone floor and and cars and things were pulled to pieces there. You know, the Burmese, Burmese local people were employed, you know to just break everything up as scrap metal. You know it’s. You know, it was, it was proper hit and miss some of them.
MC: So, what were conditions like up there?
RP: Oh [laughs] it was, the temperature a hundred degrees.
MC: Monsoon weather.
RP: The temperature. Yeah. Hundred degrees. Yeah. But the thing was there was some lovely, there was some lakes just on the outskirts of Rangoon and they were lovely great big lakes. You could, you could hardly see over the other side of them, you know and for swimming the water was sort of lukewarm. You know. It was lovely there.
MC: So you obviously not a very healthy climate out there and the drains and stuff like that you know. Once the monsoons came on.
RP: Yeah. It was very very hot and sticky at nights. That’s the only thing as well. You know, for sleeping you only, you only wanted a sheet over you in your [pause] We used to have a bed but with a netted tent all over us. You know. So we used to pull it and you’d get in and you’d draw your curtains so you were, you were off the floor and, but the only thing is we were we were in a bombed building.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And the window frames had all been removed you know so there was only like a brick opening and the blooming bats used to come in there. The bats used to fly straight in and across the other room. If you weren’t careful they’d hit one of the mosquito nets.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And somebody would have a blooming bat in their mosquito nets.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You mentioned about walking along the pavement sometimes during the monsoon weather when the drains —
RP: Oh, that was terrible.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Well, the sewers. The sewers were underneath the paths.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: And what they did, they just, in the streets they just removed a paving slab so you saw the sewers were running underneath and that’s where people used to sit down there and do their business. And you actually, you actually walked, walked by them while they were doing it. Yeah. Yeah. It was shocking really.
MC: So, how long were you in Rangoon then for?
RP: I should think from, I should think about eight months I think. Up to about August, was it?
MC: Oh, you came back in June ’46.
RP: Yeah.
MC: It looks like it.
RP: We were there for Christmas.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: I think we were in Karachi to start off with. In India, to start with and then, then, then they moved me to Burma and Rangoon.
MC: Yeah. So, you don’t, how did you get back to the UK? Did you fly back?
RP: No. Boat.
MC: Oh, you came back by boat.
RP: Yeah. Thirty days.
MC: Oh [laughs]
RP: Thirty days. Yeah.
MC: Can you remember what the boat was called?
RP: The Orduna.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Was it a liner or what was it?
RP: Well, there was no luxury on there at all. There was no, there was no, there was no place on the ship where you could go and get a cup of tea. Where you, where you could go and buy a cup of tea anywhere. Nothing like that at all. There was no, no sergeant’s mess or nothing on there but but but but what they, what they did do someone, someone on our boat deck they used to go on with a big tray and come back with about a dozen mugs of tea. I think what they used to go down in the —
MC: To the galley.
RP: Bottom of the boat sort of thing. You know, where the, where there must be some cooks down there I suppose, you know perhaps cooking. Cooking meals for the crew sort of thing down there but we used to have some fun there though. We had, we had a lot of, we had a lot of ladies on the boat with us and they’d be, they’d be WAAFs and nurses and, and they were all going back to England you see like, like we were and, and when you got up on the front of the ship, right at the very front facing forward down on the right hand side, down the right hand side you’d have, you’d have toilets there. Ladies’ toilets. On the left hand side you’d have the men’s toilets there and above, high up facing, facing the front of the ship, you know, the bow of the ship you could, you could see the front of the ship like and you could see the toilets that side and that side and you could see, you could see the water going by on that side and that side so when, when anybody went to the toilets and flushed the toilet, you know especially when the ship was, when the ship was stationary as it was it used, it used to stop about, it stopped about six times. You’d see, you’d see a couple of ladies walk by and you’d say, ‘Good Morning,’ to them. ‘Good morning,’ and they’d go in to the ladies’ toilet you see. And then [laughs] and then actually before they came out you’d see a disturbance in the sea and you’d see these sausages come up by the side of the boat you see. And and when these, when these nurses came out we all went, ‘Hurray.’ They were all going to clap like that. But they looked back at us and they waved at us but they’d got no idea. They’d got no idea what it was all about. It was amazing. And as I say we were thirty days on the boat and we were never allowed off once. You know, I mean it stopped. It stopped at two or three places, you know even in Africa like coming back. It pulled in there you know and there was a bit of, a bit of goings on like there but we, but we weren’t alllowed off the boat. Yeah.
MC: So having got back to the UK you were demobbed straight away.
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah. We went through. Went through everything there. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Got your suit.
RP: I even I even got myself a suit. You know.
MC: Yeah. You got a suit.
RP: While I was there.
RP: You could either, you could either draw the money to buy a suit with. You know, they give us some money or there was loads of clothing there. You could just go and help yourself.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: You know, and of course, you had to sign for everything and -
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Because you were a warrant officer then, weren’t you?
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: You were a warrant officer.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: So, I was getting, I was getting nearly a pound a day you see.
MC: Yeah
RP: As a warrant officer. About eighty and six or something like that a day. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: On there. I was able. In Rangoon, you see you, you couldn’t spend anything. There was nothing to spend it on in there. There was no, there was no shops. Well, if there was there were only a little tin, tin buildings like. There were no proper shops in Rangoon at all.
MC: Yeah. So I mean in that case you came back obviously what sort of job did you, did you have a job waiting for you?
RP: No. No. I didn’t. No.
MC: So you got a job.
RP: I I applied for Timpsons, the engineering.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know, and got a job. Got a job there in, in engineering, you know.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Given, give us easy work to start with until you put on machinery.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then you learned as you, as you went along.
MC: What sort of machinery was that?
RP: Drill. Drilling.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: Drilling. Yeah. And you know, to start off with you had, you had work that wasn’t very particular you know. You know, for being correct like but but later, later in engineering and working you were working to a thousandth of an inch.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know.
MC: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you, I mean when you came back during, came out the air force you’d be twenty three then I suppose.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You’d be about twenty three. So that’s when. When, so when did you get married? When did you meet your wife?
RP: Do you know.
MC: Was that after the war or before.
RP: No. I think [pause] I think, I think I was married before. Before I went abroad.
MC: Oh right.
RP: To to to you know up at, up in Lincoln.
MC: So, you got married in Lincoln, did you?
RP: No. didn’t get married in Lincoln. We got married in —
MC: Is that where you met her?
RP: That’s where I met her. Yeah. Yeah. She was, she was in the Command Supply Depot in Lincoln. At the Command Supply Depot they supplied all the RAF airfields in the Lincoln area with food and, and we, we at nights we in this pub we were in down there. She used to tell us about all the, all the different food they’d had in and warning us that for the next two or three days we were going to have this, we were going to have this. Rabbit and all that sort of thing, you know and or or a bit of chicken here and there or, yeah she could let us know what food we’d be expecting on there.
MC: So, you met her while you were at Skellingthorpe then.
RP: At Skellingthorpe, yeah.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Yeah. On there.
MC: And you got married. Did you get married after you’d finished your tour or during your tour?
RP: No. No. I got, I got married while I was still in the Air Force because I think, I think I was married when I went abroad.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I think. I think I was married when I went abroad because I think because I think you know when she, when she got demobbed I think she came to live in Kettering. You know. Down —
MC: While you was —
RP: With my parents. Yeah. Yeah, because her dad was, her dad was, was an ex-Naval chap you know and and I’m not sure, I’m not sure whether whether she had a mother and father. You know. The two of them were living together because I think he he was an ex-Naval chap on there.
MC: Yeah. So, did you stay in engineering the rest of your working life?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Or connected with engineering, yeah. Even, you see I went to Witfield, Hodgson and Brough. Then I went to Wicksteeds, you know and [pause] I’m trying to think but then [pause] Oh that’s right. Whitfield, Hodgson and Brough, I was a charge hand there on one section and I I had about seven blokes working on my drilling section with the, you know all the drilling. But we were making shoe, making shoe machinery. It was all being exported. Mostly to China. Nearly all, all the machines were, we were making were going to China. So, you quite see why, why, you know we got a lot of stuff coming back from China in there.
MC: When you came back after the war, Reg in to Civvy Street did, did you talk about your RAF service? The raids you did. Were people interested?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. People were quite interested in in where you were especially when I said I was in, in Rangoon because in Rangoon the temperature used to go up to a hundred degrees there.
MC: I mean, you’d just, you just done a full tour of operations during the war. I mean, did, was the reaction of people. Did you talk to people about those operations? The bombing of Germany etcetera after the war.
RP: Yeah. Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean some of the raids I mean, I mean we lost about fifty, sixty aircraft you know. Ad you got, you got back to your hut at night and you found out there was about three or four beds in your hut empty.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know. They just never came back.
MC: Yeah. I’m just wondering about the reaction of the civilians. Civilian life. Once you went back in to civilian life.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Their reaction to, to the war.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know, what they thought about you being in Bomber Command and that.
RP: Oh, I think, I think, you know when I came home on leave you know the, because I was a, I flew during the war you see I think people, people wanted to, wanted to hear what you’d been up to and all that sort of thing. And quite interested because at night you see when it was getting dusk people used to, used to see the Lancasters going over, you know. Another one there, another one there, another one there and they’d be passing over Kettering perhaps for about seven or eight minutes like, you know. And, and then, and what you used to hear, the elderly women used to say, they used to say, ‘Somebody’s going to get it tonight.’ That’s what they used to say. You know, when they saw all these Lancasters going out they knew they were on their way carrying a load of bombs.
MC: Can you remember who your Squadron CO was?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Who was your Squadron commanding officer?
RP: Who was —?
MC: Your Squadron commanding officer.
RP: Who? Who was it?
MC: Yeah. Can you remember?
RP: I wouldn’t really know.
MC: No.
RP: I don’t remember the name. No.
MC: Yeah.
RP: But my, my pilot was Michael Beetham and he stayed in the Air Force and he became Marshall of the Royal Air Force.
MC: You don’t get any higher than that.
RP: Sir Michael Beetham.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You don’t get any higher than that.
RP: Yeah. I mean, we just, we just called him Mike [laughs] Yeah.
MC: The Squadron reunions were, how early did you get [pause], did you go to the first ones in ’46? When did you get involved in the Squadron Associations?
RP: We haven’t had, we haven’t had many Squadron reunions at all.
MC: Well, I mean you’ve had the reunion every year because the first, can you remember when you first got involved with the Squadron’s Association?
RP: No. I’ve never. I’ve never been really deeply associated with it, you know but —
[recording paused]
MC: So, when you come up for the reunions each year you used to go up to the dancing in Lincoln.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Meeting. You were reunited with a lot of your old friends.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And, of course, Sir Michael would have been there as well.
RP: That’s right. He used to come. He used to come along with his wife you see. Yeah. There. I don’t, I don’t know what the building was. It was, it was one of those big domed buildings.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Right in the middle of Lincoln. A big hall there.
MC: Yeah. I think that was the Assembly Rooms.
RP: Yeah.
MC: What they know as the Assembly Rooms. So going, looking back on your flying career, Reg. How did you feel about the, the, what you did? You know the —
RP: What the bombing? Yeah. Well, I mean as for, as for dropping the bombs and things we, we were only, we could, we couldn’t, we couldn’t wait to get rid of them. The loads you know. Once the, once the, we didn’t really care, we didn’t really care who they hit you know as long, as long as they, as long as they got them out of the aircraft because I mean what are, what are you going to be? About what, eight thousand tonnes of bombs in the aircraft you know. You were always, you were always afraid somebody’s going to hit you.
MC: And what about, I mean obviously you didn’t know, you can’t remember your Squadron commander or the station commander but people like Harris. Arthur Harris.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Bomber Harris.
RP: They called him Butch, didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Butch Harris.
RP: Butch. Butcher Harris.
MC: Yeah. Do you think he was a good man? A good figure?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Do you think he was a good man for Bomber Command?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was respected, I think. you know. Yeah.
MC: And at the time did you have any thoughts about Churchill. People like Churchill and —
RP: Who? Churchill?
MC: Churchill.
RP: Not, not really. No.
MC: Without putting words in your mouth do you think you were let down after the war? No recognition for what you did.
RP: Well, well I suppose what it was, what it was I suppose we were so pleased to get, to get out. To get into civilian life, I think. I mean, that’s all, that’s all we, we thought about, you know.
MC: Of course.
RP: And about if we hadn’t got a job, you know what, you know what work we were going to do. I mean, I mean, I was married when I was still in the forces you see. At the very end. So, I mean, I had to, I had to try and save me cash a bit for when I came out from there. But it was certainly [pause] I think, I think to be able, to be able to travel, to you, know to Rangoon, you know. Fly there, you know stopping at various, various places on the way I think, I think people nowadays I think would give their right arm to do it because we, you know we, the first flight from England to near the Mediterranean you know the plane stopped at some place right near the, a great big inland lake you know in Tunisia or somewhere, you know. Marvellous.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then I think from then on I think I went, I went to, one place I think is in there where we landed there [pause] and it was the, something like the Heliopolis Palace Hotel or something like that.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Stayed.
MC: Yeah, yeah. Because you stopped off at Persia on the way, didn’t you? Persia yeah.
RP: It was what?
MC: You stopped off at Cairo and Persia.
RP: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean once I, once I got out of bed in this hotel and opened the curtains and the blooming [pause] blooming pyramids, the pyramids were just, just outside the door. You know.
MC: Yeah. Obviously, that was Cairo. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Amazing. I mean, I was, I was in bed. I was in bed in the morning and a lady come along and started cleaning all round the bed and all that when I was still in bed. You know. I was awake fortunately as they cleared, you know cleaned the toilet and all that sort of thing before I could get out of bed even [pause] Yeah.
MC: Did you go back to Germany after the war at all?
RP: No. No. Never. Never been back there. No. No. I don’t know how many places, how many places I bombed in Germany but most of it was more or less the same place I suppose.
MC: Well, Reg, thank you very much for this interview. It’s been, you’ve given me some good stories.
RP: Hmmn.
MC: I appreciate you taking time out to tell us about your RAF experiences and thank you very much.
RP: Well, it’s, it’s a thing. It’s a thing you remember and you know, well you just, you’re just pleased you were fortunate in doing what you did, you know. You know, jumping out of aeroplanes and things.
MC: And surviving.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Well, thank you, Reg.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Thank you.
[recording paused]
MC: You say there was one thing that really annoyed you.
RP: Yeah. And you used to, you used to, when we bombed, when we bombed the cities. Berlin and places like that we used to have a master of ceremonies. He was, he was, he was the, he’d be somebody, he’d be very high-ranking officer that would be, that would be flying with you and he’d be shouting out instructions like a —
MC: Master bomber.
RP: Master bomber. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And you say it annoyed you. Why was that?
RP: Well, well this, this one, this one was, they used to drop, they used to drop red TIs and green TIs on the city and they’d say, and they’d say you know, ‘Don’t aim at the reds. Hit the greens. Hit the greens.’ You see. They’d be telling you which ones to aim for you see but one particular night this, this, they’d been dropping these markers down for us and one of them, this chap was yelling out which ones of us to bomb. Telling us not, not to aim, not to aim at the greens and then he was yelling out, ‘Hit the f’ing reds,’ you see. But he didn’t say f’ing. He said, ‘Hit the f’ing reds. Hit them f’ing reds. ‘And he was yelling that out like. And I thought to myself good God I thought to myself I hope nobody hears him [ laughs] you know. But but when I got back we were debriefed after the raid. I said, I said, ‘That master bomber —’ I said, ‘That was yelling all those instructions about the bombing,’ I said, ‘Who was it? Who was it?’ Anyhow, and they said ‘Oh, oh, that was, that was air commodore —’ so and so and so and so. I said, ‘An air commodore?’ You see. And I said to her, I said, ‘If you’d have heard his language on there.’ And that surprised me, you know. Hit the f’ing so and so, don’t hit the f’ing so and sos, hit the f’ing so and so’s but he was using, was using the term all the time, you know. It’s, and it was the thing when you back in to your bed at night you know you think about that. You think it’s not, it’s, you know, if he’s in a job like there learning people you know about things, I mean, it’s not a very good you know it’s, he's not setting a very good example, is he? Not really. Being an air commodore as well on there. Amazing.
[recording paused]
RP: The weather was very bad you see. If the weather was, you know if the weather weren’t, you know, could they, they used to drop coloured markers down, you know for you to bomb. And, and do you know one night, one night we were on the one of the Berlin raids. It was, there was no, no fog or mist about and I think there was a lot of searchlights and and the, you know you could see, you could see the ground and the roads and the buildings. You could see them so plain that when, when we flew up, when we flew up this great big road in, in [pause] my memory. I was going to say Blackpool [laughs] in Berlin, when we flew up this great big road. It was a wide road with trees on the sides of it and by the sides of it was, was lovely houses. And they had trees in front as well but but they all seemed to have big back gardens. Big wide gardens like. But this big main road though that went up the road like with these lovely big houses, as we flew up this road we followed a, we must have followed a Lancaster that was dropping bombs all the way along there. And when you looked down you saw this lovely house, you know with trees in front of it and lovely, lovely gardens at the back of it, all of a sudden you these big bombs going and you see this whole house go up in, you know in —
MC: So what sort of altitude would you have been at then?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: What sort of altitude would you have been at?
RP: We’d be fairly high.
MC: But you could still see. Make out the road and the houses.
RP: Yeah. Oh yeah. We couldn’t have been, we couldn’t have been more than about, probably about eight thousand feet, I think. Something like that. I bet we weren’t even ten thousand feet. Yeah. Because normally, you see, normally on most raids we used to fly at twenty thousand feet. You know, quite high up. But you wouldn’t see much at all there. But this one, I think, I think what it was it was such a clear night I think Mike Beetham, you know he was perhaps the same as me. He just perhaps wanted to see all the lovely area. All the lovely houses and things down there. Amazing isn’t it? So —
MC: So, at twenty thousand feet was it, it was fairly cold.
RP: Twenty. Yeah, oh yeah [laughs] yeah. Well [laughs] yeah, it yeah it would be about minus four or something you know it wouldn’t have been, wouldn’t be —
MC: Did you have any heating?
RP: Hmnn?
MC: You didn’t have any heating?
RP: Oh yeah. We had heating. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, ‘cause, ‘cause they the gunners used to say to me, ‘Wireless op, have you turned that heat down,’ you know and I, they’d say, ‘For God’s sake, turn it up,’ you see. So, I’d turn it up but the navigator next to me, he tapped me on my leg and went [sigh] He’d say, ‘Turn it down.’ Because I was I suppose it was, I suppose it blows hot air over over certain positions you see doesn’t it? And we just, just got together over it and there.
MC: So as a wireless op could you see out at all apart from the astrodome?
RP: I couldn’t. No. I had a little window by the side of me and that that looked out on the port, on the port engines and I could see the, I could see the flames coming out the, the exhausts on there. On there. But, but what I had, what I had to do a lot for the navigator I had to get in the astrodome and and give him a lot of advice from the astrodome. I’d tell him what stars I could see, you see to start with. Then I had to get a, he’d say can he get me, can he get me a shot on the on the such and such a star. I forget what it was called. It was, it was something I had to, the term. It was something I could along and I could take a shot of this. I could take a shot of this star. This particular star. He he used to say what stars can you see? And I said [unclear] Dubhe, Polaris. You know. And he’d say, ‘Dubhe. Get get me a shot on, get me a shot on Dubhe.’ You see. Then I’ll come along and I’d you know I’d say, tell the pilot, keep the plane steady. Right. Ok. And I’d take his shot and give it to him and he had a, he had equipment where he could plot his position from it.
MC: So what equipment were you using to take the shot?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: What were you using?
RP: I don’t know. It was a [pause] I’m trying to think. I forget what the term was.
MC: A navigation aid. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I forget what it was called on there. But he used to ask me what stars I could see to start with. I reeled one or two off with you know. As long as I got the right, as long as I got the right star though. That was the main thing. Yeah.
MC: Got you home as well.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: But he, he used to say, you know we’d be getting near. We’d be going across, across the south coast like you know and we’d be flying up you know, coming up on the right hand side of London or something like that and, and all of a sudden I used to have broadcasts you see on the, on the radio and I’d get a, I’d get a message and it just and it just said cancel, ‘Cancel. Cancel —’ you know, ‘Landing at Skellingthorpe.’ And it’s got land and he’d give you, give you another, give you another base like, you know. This one would perhaps be in in Yorkshire, you know. Up in Yorkshire. A place up there. Melbourne or something used to land at up there. Melbourne or Pocklington. Pocklington and Melbourne and they’d give us, and they’d give us instructions to land there because they had a thing at Melbourne I think it is. There’s a damned big landing area up there. A big, like a big tarmac, tarmac aerodrome up there. Yeah and, and we finished up in Yorkshire instead of Lincolnshire.
MC: So your navigator never got you lost at all.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Your navigator never got you lost at all.
RP: He —
MC: He was a good navigator. Never got you lost.
RP: Never got?
MC: Did he ever get you lost?
RP: Oh no.
MC: No. He was good.
RP: He was, he was more of an elderly bloke Frank was you know. Well elderly. He’d be, he’d be probably his late twenties I think [laughs]
MC: That was Frank Swinyard.
RP: Swinyard. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Your bomb aimer was Les, wasn’t he? Was your bomb aimer Les?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Les Bartlett was your bomb aimer
RP: Les Bartlett was the bomb aimer. Yeah. Yeah. And Fred, Fred our rear gunner. Fred Ball.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. And there. We all pitched in and made, made the best of it really. Les Bartlett. Les was a lady’s man [laughs]. Yeah. I went out quite a bit with Les, you know at nights. You know.
MC: So you were a ladies man yourself.
RP: Well, I never got round to that. No. No. Still —
MC: So, where, where when you used to go out with Les whereabouts did you from Skellingthorpe. Did you go in to Lincoln?
RP: We’d always go into Lincoln. Yeah. Yeah, because we had we had bikes there you see and we used to bike into Lincoln yeah, there. But the, but the the ACS girls where I met, where I my met my first wife there you see. They, the Command Supply Depot. It was in Lincoln and and they, and they, they provided the food for all the, all the airfields in the Lincolnshire area.
MC: Yeah. You said that.
RP: Amazing.
MC: So when you went out with Les whereabout. Can you remember any of the places you used to go?
RP: What in Lincoln?
MC: Yeah.
RP: No. We, we used to go, we used to go in a little pub along by the river.
MC: Oh right.
RP: On there. There, you know it was, yeah we, we more or less went in the same pub every, every night in there. But, but once, once I met [Ena] though there you know we, well we met her in that pub and from then on we kept on. It was a little, it was a little pub near the near the river in Lincoln. But I mean Lincoln was, it was all airmen wasn’t it? I mean there was about half a dozen aerodromes.
MC: And pubs.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: There was a lot of pubs.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you’d know wouldn’t you? Yeah. No. I thought, I thought one, I got to know I got to know some Lincoln people and [pause] I can’t even remember their name now but I know, I know they lived in one of those little side streets in Lincoln next to a fish and chip shop. Next to a fish and chip shop because when, when I got to know them quite well if I got my coat wet what they used to do they used to go and put it on a clothes horse and put it up against the wall in the front room because on the other side of the wall was the fish and chip, the fish and chip place where they cook all the things. So that wall was like a big radiator. Yeah. And the son now, he’s something to do with the Lincoln City Council. You know. He’s well up in the Lincoln City Council there. But I’m blowed if I, I’m blowed if I remember the names. Terrible isn’t it?
MC: So when did you start the painting?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: When did you start the painting? Have you always done the paintings?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Of Lancasters, etcetera.
RP: Yeah. I’ve always liked a bit of painting, yeah but —
MC: That was, you didn’t do any painting during the war.
RP: No. Oh no. Not, not while, not whilst, not while I was in the Air Force. No. No. Somewhere in this house I’ve got a stack of photos. But I tried to find them, you know before you came here. I never, never did find them.
MC: Yeah. I think we’ll say, we’ll wind up now Reg, and thank you very much -
RP: Yeah.
MC: For the additional stories and, and it’s great. This this will be in the Digital Archives.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Thank you, Reg.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Reg Payne. Two
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Sound
Identifier
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APayneR170827
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Mike Connock
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2017-08-25
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eng
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Pending review
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Wiltshire
France--Toulouse
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Reg Payne was born in Kettering in 1923. He left school at the age of fourteen and just before he was eighteen he volunteered to join the RAF. He did his basic training at Blackpool learning Morse Code in the tram sheds. From there he did his radio training at RAF Yatesbury flying in DH Dragon Rapides, and at RAF Stormy Down for gunnery training. He joined his crew at 14 OTU and they eventually joined 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe flying Lancasters. He and his crews first three operations were to Berlin, and on their fourth operation to Leipzig their aircraft was damaged by a JU88 night fighter and they were forced to land at RAF Wittering short of fuel. During a fighter affiliation with a Spitfire over the North Sea with some additional crew members on board, after their second exercise, one of the engines caught fire, and the crew were ordered to abandon the aircraft. Unfortunately, some of the crew members were lost when the aircraft crashed. His last operation was to Toulouse, and he became an instructor with 17 OTU at RAF Silverstone. When he finished flying he did a course in Blackpool at number 1 Air Transport Depot, was posted to India where he spent the remainder of his career disposing of RAF equipment.
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01:37:27 audio recording
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Julie Williams
14 OTU
17 OTU
50 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Ju 88
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operational Training Unit
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Yatesbury
Spitfire
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/749/10748/ACookJ150709.2.mp3
e546cf9f2a3e4cbc2c2ae8d537348675
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cook, Jack
J Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Cook (- 2023, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 100 and 104 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cook, J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: David Kavannagh interviewing Jack Cook for the International Bomber Command Centre 9th of July 2015. They’ll edit this at some point so don’t worry about a thing. So, if I could just ask you your background. Where you came from from before the war? What you were doing?
JC: I was born, I was born a few miles from Doncaster. A small market town called Mexborough. Actually, it’s between Rotherham and Doncaster. And at eighteen years of age, which was August the 20th 1943 I volunteered for aircrew. All aircrew were volunteers. A lot of people don’t realise that.
DK: So just before that. Had you come straight from school?
JC: No.
DK: Oh.
JC: No. I left school at fourteen and I worked in a [pause] what can I call it? Well, actually they were pawnbrokers but they were outfitters. Gent’s outfitters. They sold everything kind of thing. Until I was sixteen I worked there and then I went on the footplate which was the old LNER. I worked, I worked there. I worked there until I was eighteen and then I joined the RAF. I went to the attestation board at Doncaster and I wanted to become a rear gunner. But after the interview there was a squadron leader said to me, ‘Would you like to become a wireless operator/air gunner instead of just the air gunner.’ I said, ‘Well I don’t know the Morse code and I know nothing about wireless or anything like that.’ ‘Well,’ he says, ‘You’ve came out very well out in the attestation board.’ He said, ‘Would you like to?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll have a go.’ So that’s it. That’s how I became training for a wireless op. And anyhow the course was a lot longer, the gunner’s course because I only arrived at the squadron a fortnight before the, or three weeks before the war finished. So actually I didn’t take part in any actively dropping bombs at all. I should imagine I was one of the youngest at that time of the war because I was only nineteen when we did a drop the food to the Dutch in Operation Manna.
DK: So you were nineteen in 1945.
JC: Yeah. I was. I was twenty in ‘45. But I was only nineteen actually when the drop took place in the April. And in [pause] we were on standby for the last raid of the war. Berchtesgaden, which was Hitler’s hide out up in the mountains. We used to call it his retreat. But we weren’t required because I expect we were just on standby if somebody fell sick you know and they put another crew in. Which they did.
DK: So which squadron was this?
JC: This was 100 Squadron at Elsham Wolds, Lincolnshire. And, and then in February 1946 we took the Lancaster. Oh just prior to that we were all in the briefing room and a squadron leader stood up and said, ‘There are quite a number of crews that are here today. Well,’ he says, ‘Three. We want three. Three crews. And it’s for being out in the Middle East. Taking the Lancs out to a place called Abu Sueir, not far from Cairo.’ And he said, ‘You’ll be there until your date of mobilisation is finished.’ So one lad, he said, ’ And what happens if we refuse to go?’ So he said, ‘Well, you’ll be up for mutiny.’ And Jack’s hand went up, I said, ‘When do we go sir?’ [laughs] Anyhow, we took the Lancs out there to Abu Sueir and it was a peacetime airfield that. And we were only there for a few weeks when we had to move down to Shallufa, in the Canal Zone. Right at the bottom near Suez. And that would be about the March of ’46 and I was there until ’47. The squadron, oh this would have been when this was when on 104 Squadron was formed out there. 104 Squadron. And we disbanded and I, the wireless ops at that stage, there was only one group every three months going, get back to England. Which, I was out there quite a while. We lost all the gunners. They didn’t want those. They didn’t want the bomb aimers. They went. And I finished up on Ansons. VIP run. And, and what’s the other thing. VIPs runs and mail runs. All over the Middle East we went in the, in the Ansons. And then my time for demob came up and I knew they’d made a mistake with my group. I knew I was 57 group and they’d got it down as 56. We were already packed up to go to the old transit camp waiting for a boat home. And we had prisoners of war in the mess. Damned good they were as well. Mind you they, they were very helpful. They couldn’t do, you know they were prisoners of war but they were damned good. And one of them came because our billets weren’t far from the, from the sergeant’s mess. Well, they spoke good English the three of them that were there. We weren’t a flight in the mess. A telephone. A telephone? I’ll bet they’ve found out the mistake they’d made. Anyhow, I went there and it was a squadron leader, somewhere from group there. He said, ‘I understand that your waiting to go.’ I expect the sergeant in charge of the mess had told him that I was waiting because he was a big friend, a big pal of mine. And he said, ‘I’m awfully sorry,’ he says, ‘But there’s been a mistake been made with your release group number.’ ‘Never,’ I said [laughs] so he said, ‘Yeah, but,’ he said, ‘I’ll promise you this though. Instead of when your time comes up in about three months’ time that you won’t be going with transport. You’ll be flying home.’ I thought ‘Yeah. I know.’ But he kept to his word and I was packed up again waiting for the garrie to take me to the transit where we had to wait until we got a boat. One of the Jerries came across and said, ‘You’re wanted on the phone. It’s someone from Group the sergeant says.’ So, anyhow I went there and yeah, ‘Well,’ he said ‘I’ve kept my promise,’ he said, ‘And there’s an aircraft coming. A Lancaster coming down from Palestine tomorrow.’ He said, ‘Are you ok for going on it?’ Well, I thought, well I thought to myself I’ve never been on a ship kind of that because we flew out there and he said, ‘I can’t wait much longer. The flight. I’m very very busy.’ I said, ‘Yeah’ I said, ‘Ok. I’ll take it.’ ‘Oh by the way,’ he says, ‘You’ll have to work your own way home.’ He says, ‘The wireless operator will be getting out and you’ll be getting in.’ And I was demobbed in forty eight hours. Amazing.
DK: So where did you come back in the UK?
JC: I came back to — where we landed the aircraft?
DK: Yeah. Where did you land?
JC: Silloth. Carlisle.
DK: Right. Ok.
JC: That was there, I don’t know whether it’s still going or not. And then I was dropped down there. Then I got a pass to Kirkham, Blackpool way, where I was demobbed. And then I was back. And when I — I forget how much leave I had to come but I went back on the footplate until 1961. And my wife had been in hospital. She’d had, for seven years she’d had mastoid operations all over the place and she went convalescing to Bridlington. And she was, she was a sister at Mexborough Hospital then. Where we lived of course. And she went there for a fortnight and towards the end of the fortnight the matron got on the phone. The matron at the convalescent home phoned me up and said, ‘I know all about your Jack.’ She said, ‘Connie’s been very, very helpful here. Although she’s convalescing she’s been doing a lot of help,’ she said, and my sister — that’s her sister, the matron’s sister, who was the assistant matron was leaving there to get married. And she said, ‘Would you come and take her place, Connie.’ So, Connie said, ‘Well, what about Jack?’ And she said, ‘Oh I’ll get him a job here,’ she said. Which eventually she did and I was manager of a fancy goods shop. A large one. One, two, three, four — about nine large windows. And I had a staff of eleven or twelve girls during the busy — only for about three or four months but I used to keep two of them on, the best two, all the years that I were there. And, you know they kept the shop clean and it was [pause] And then one day I was talking to the wife and we had two kiddies at this time then. In 1961 one would be, one would be still a baby in the pram. The other was four year old because there was four years difference. And I went for an interview at Sheffield because the shop was called Spalls and they had various. There’s one in Leicester. A Spalls in Leicester. The same family. There was this chap at Sheffield — he was in charge of the five northern branches. And I got the job and went to, and that’s how we came to Brid. Now this would be 19 no we hadn’t any kids then. No children then. ’51 we were married. I lost my wife seventeen years ago by the way, she was seventy three. ’61. ’51 I was married. ’51. So it would be fifty, fifty [pause]now you see how when you get old how you —
DK: I have trouble with dates [laughs] yeah. Late 50s.
JC: Yeah but it would be probably ’57.
DK: Right.
JC: Probably ’57 when we went to Brid. That would be it. No. No. No. I’m wrong on dates because my eldest lad was born in ’57 and the youngest one was born in ’61. He only lives at Bourne.
DK: Oh right.
JC: I think he knows — Is it Sue? She works at —
DK: Yes. Yes.
JC: I think she lives at Bourne.
DK: Yes she does. Yeah.
JC: And he’s the manager of the large estate there.
DK: Oh right.
JC: He’s three or four staff. That’s all, it’s not. And it’s a very, very good job. They started him at thirty thousand a couple of years back. He worked for Vodaphone.
DK: Yeah.
JC: For a few years. Because he did twenty five years in the RAF. And his wife, his wife — let’s see. She works at [pause] well it used to be RAF Cottesmore.
DK: Right. Yes.
JC: Where Maurice used to be as an engineer.
DK: Yeah. It’s the army, it’s the army barracks now isn’t it?
JC: It’s army barracks now. That’s it. Well she’s in the medical department there.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Now then where have we got to now?
DK: If I could just take you back a bit.
JC: Yeah.
DK: If I could just take you back to the Manna drops. How many Manna food drops did you actually do?
JC: I did two.
DK: Two.
JC: Yeah. At the racecourse. Both at the racecourse.
DK: Right.
JC: But Bill Birch mentioned it, that it was The Hague but I’m sure it was this, this racecourse where we dropped was at Rotterdam. But there again I might be wrong again. Or Bill could be wrong.
DK: Do you remember much about the reaction of the people on the ground?
JC: Oh yeah. Well it’s hard to be — you see we were flying at four or five hundred feet and they were stood on buildings and waving flags. Anything that they was picking up they were waving. And as I mentioned there we were that low I saw a couple of Jerries, of course, they’d be short of food as well. And they’d got their helmets off and were waving them on top, on the top of the buildings them as plain as — I can see them now. Yeah. And what else can I say about — well very little. Although we were very, we were low down and as I mentioned just a while ago that everywhere you could see water. Because with Montgomery coming up from the south the Germans blew the dykes up and flooded the whole area. So as soon as we were over the course kind of thing that was it. There was water behind us that we flew over and water in front of us. And then of course we did the drop.
DK: And perhaps if I could take you back just a stage further. After your training as a wireless operator did you go straight into the squadron or was there any —?
JC: No. What happened —?
DK: Was there a Conversion Unit you went to?
JC: No. What happened, what happens was you meet you meet your crew. You’re all in the mess and there were pilots and navigators. The whole lot you know. The crew members. Crews. And then you’re picked. You’re talking to one another. And my skipper he was a W/O to start with and they all got commissioned there later on as P/O’s. And I think he’d got the bomb aimer who did his training in Canada. He married a girl in Canada and they moved. They’re in America now. I hear from his quite regular. But I lost my mid-upper gunner two years ago. And they called him Chaplin. Warrant Officer Chaplin. His name was Dickie but we, Dickie Chaplin but of course he got Charlie. Charlie Chaplin you see. And he said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘I want,’ you know, talking, he said, ‘Right I’m looking for a wireless op. Anybody interested?’ ‘Yeah. ‘Yeah.’ I put my hand up. ‘Come on, let’s have a look at you.’ You know, that’s how we got a crew in five or ten minutes.
DK: Do you think, do you think that worked well because you basically made up your own crews? You weren’t ordered in to a crew. You just —
JC: Oh no. They didn’t force you in. That’s how you, that’s how you met your family.
DK: And do you think that way worked well?
JC: Oh yeah. I should imagine there couldn’t have been a better way actually.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual in, sort of the armed forces to be able to do something like that by yourself [unclear]
JC: Yeah. It was far better than.
DK: Being ordered.
JC: You were in this group. You were going to. Yeah. Yeah. Far better. And you mixed together straightaway. And the comradeship. It’s hard to believe.
DK: So how —
JC: And actually had I, had I been a rear gunner or mid-upper gunner I’d have been on the squadron six or eight months before but it was such a long course at — well I did at Market Harborough. I did OTU at Market Harborough which is only about twenty five miles from here.
DK: So you were you at the OTU before joining the crew or —
JC: No. That’s where we, that’s where we met the crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So that was where, which OTU?
JC: I think it was 14. I think I’ve got, I’ve got, I’ll just get my, I’ll just get my logbook down. Thank you.
DK: Ok.
JC: And then I’ve got dates in where I — can you manage? Can you manage?
DK: That’s ok.
[pause]
JC: The only thing wrong with this place. There isn’t enough room David.
[pause]
JC: I think it’s in here.
[pause]
JC: It’s like going into Fort Knox is this [laughs]
[pause]
JC: Oh it works. I haven’t forgotten the number. It’s ages since I —
[pause]
DK: Are you ok now?
JC: Yeah. Thank you. These are the aircraft I flew in.
DK: Are they?
JC: Domini, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Lancaster, Dakota as a passenger, Liberator as a passenger and a Boa Carlton as a passenger.
DK: Yeah.
JC: When we went out to India and did a few, three weeks in India. Right. Number 1 Radio School February ’44. What happened before that? Oh I was at ITW. Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
JC: Then Radio School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire. Number 6 Advanced Flying Unit. Staverton, Gloucester. There’s the dates. 14 OTU Market Harborough October ’44 to February ’45. Then to 1156 Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme, Doncaster. Then to 100 Squadron. You see March ’45 so the war was nearly over wasn’t it? So I was, I was still only nineteen then. I wasn’t twenty until the August. Then 16 Ferry Unit Dunkeswell in Devon where we flew the Lancs out to the, out to the Middle East. Then 104 Squadron there. At Abu Sueir. Middle East Forces. April until July’46 squadron moved to Shallufa. That’s at the Canal Zone. Squadron disbanded 31st of March ’47. Then MENME ferry unit and MENME Comm Squadron and then demobbed in September ’47. Now, this logbook isn’t the original one. When we were at Dunkeswell to fly out to the Middle East once a month all the flying logbooks had to be signed by the CO. Wherever you were. And there were all in the flight office kind of thing and there was a fire. And the only thing [pause] of all the things were burned down although the actual number of hours were in and that’s what we had to do there. Now that [pause] number 16TH RAF Ferry Unit, RAF Dunkeswell. Number one logbook destroyed by fire January ’46. And we got that we had to put the number of flying hours in and then he’s checked it and signed it.
DK: And that’s taken from the burnt one.
JC: That was taken from the burnt one.
DK: That’s —
JC: And it was all checked. It was checked by the squadron leader.
DK: That a real shame it was burnt and lost.
JC: It is.
DK: That’s a shame.
JC: It is. Yeah.
DK: So, that only shows from ’46 onwards.
JC: This actually shows from, this shows from 11th of December ’45. Collection at Silloth. That’s Carlisle and —
DK: In a Lancaster.
JC: That was Lancs yeah.
DK: All Lancasters.
JC: Yeah. That was it. Lancasters. And each one, the logbook is signed by the squadron leader or somebody for the — yes it was a flying officer then. Charlie, Charlie Chaplin. And you know there’s all trips. Bombing. Greece, Italy. We had some good runs. [unclear] Pomigliano, that’s Naples. Bari’s on the east coast, way up in Italy. Back to Cairo, away from base. Bombing. Gunnery. Lydda, that’s Palestine. And there’s all kinds of trips, [unclear] Greece. Pomigliano and Cairo. Lydda transport flying. Flying a lot of troop in we did.
DK: Mostly with the Lancaster Mark 7s isn’t it?
JC: That’s a 7. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a book and every Lancaster that was made, manufactured kind of thing and the number of it. I’ve got it. What happened to it?
DK: No idea. Mostly scrapped I would imagine.
JC: Most of them were yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Kasfareet, Campo Formio, Italy again. Almarza. Bombing. Shallufa base. Lydda. Squadron moved from Abu Sueir as I said, down to the Canal Zone.
DK: Quite a few flights.
JC: Yeah. Where are we now? Abu Suier. Nicosia, Cyprus trooping twenty passengers. We’ve got Rome again, Ciampino. Some are quite a number of hours in August. You see a lot of , a lot of people, well all the aircrew when the war was over, the senior NCOs, I don’t know about the officers but they became LACs again. We were only given stripes for if we were shot down and you were treated as senior NCOs prisoners of war. Palestine, Almarza, Lyneham, Luqa, Malta. [unclear] Southern France. Diverted. Twelve passengers. Toulouse. That’s down near Marseille.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Ferry St Mawgan. Abingdon. Transport Luqa, Cairo, Fayid, Palestine. Khartoum. Almarza, Ciampino, Rome. Air sea rescue search — nine hours forty five minutes. That’s the longest.
DK: Do you remember much about that incident?
JC: Oh I do. Yeah.
DK: Was that —
JC: What you’ve got to —
DK: Is it the 21st of November 1946.
JC: What we had to do was do a box search instructions to the pilots like that but we did that and we were unsuccessful. So what he did then — he did [pause] and when we landed he got a real rollicking off the CO. Ten minutes fuel we’d left. He said, ‘Think about your crew.’ Anyhow we got, he apologised did Charlie.
DK: So you never found who was —
JC: No. We never found, never found them. No.
DK: And was, and can you remember was that you were looking for crew from a ship or from another aircraft.
JC: It was an aircraft. It was a York aircraft that came from — it was flying, now then, I don’t know where it had come from and where it was going. That’s beyond me now I just can’t get it. Aden, Khartoum, Eritrea, [unclear] Aden again, Almarza, Rhodes Island, Rhodes. Kalata was the airfield. Nicosia. From Nicosia to Kalata. The, the [pause] now what was he? He was security police. British. Well, a Scotsman actually and he lived in this castle and he invited us. I don’t know how long we were there. Landed the 4th and left on the 7th so we were there for three days. Something like that. And he invited us out, he invited us to his place for dinner. And what an evening. Anyhow, he said when you leave the next day, he said, or this was the following day that we were leaving, he said, ‘Fly down the main street if you will.’ To Charlie he said, ‘And let them know we’ve got an air force.’ And we did. Just over [laughs] just over the house tops. Oh it was amazing.
DK: So that was, that was in Nicosia in Cyprus.
JC: That was, no, that was from, we were in Almarza. We went to Kasfareet.
DK: Which is in Greece.
JC: No. Kasfareeet. That’s in Egypt.
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
JC: Yes. Kasfareet. Then we went from Nicosia in Cyprus.
DK: So your low fly past was over Egypt.
JC: No. No. It was here at Rhodes. It was Rhodes.
DK: Oh very well. I’m with you.
JC: And then we went from Nicosia to Kalata in Rhodes.
DK: Yeah.
JC: And then we went from Kalata to [unclear] Then then back to Kasfareet.
DK: So your low fly past was over Rhodes.
JC: Over Rhodes.
DK: And this, this one is another date there on the 13th of February ’47 base to Habbabiya in Iraq. Almarza. Kasfareet. Base. Plenty of trips here. Khormaksar, Aden again. Luqa – Palestine. We were in Palestine. We’d not been out in Egypt only a few weeks when Charlie said, ‘Shall we go up to Palestine?’ He says, ‘I’ll get the wing commander flying to see if he’ll put a training trip on, drop us there and then collect us a week later.’ Which he did. And we went up there and that was the ruddy night in Jerusalem that they — I forget now what hotel we were at but that’s when the — was it the Stern Gang?
DK: The Stern Gang, yeah.
JC: Yeah. The Stern. That’s when they attacked. I think they blew the —
DK: The King David Hotel.
JC: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem and murdered a few paratroops that were in tents. Do you remember? Well, you will have read about that.
DK: Yes. I’m know of the incident.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. And he got on the blower the next day, he said, ‘I think you’d better fetch us back,’ and they put a kite on. And then it died down and about six or seven weeks later we went again and we saw all the biblical places. It was marvellous. I mean the places I’ve been. I think before I was, before I was demobbed I think I’d been in to twenty one countries.
DK: Yeah. And you would see these places before the mass tourism.
JC: Oh yeah. Yeah. yeah. It would have cost me thousands to have been. Mind you the only thing is I can remember very little about them. I can remember, I can remember Jerusalem and all the places where, where Jesus stopped with the cross. The twelve stops wherever it was. And the Church of the Nativity where He was supposed to be born.
DK: So what were your duties actually as the wireless operator? Just sort of explain. Sitting there.
JC: Well we used to well the main thing was if you’re going to be aborted somebody’s got to know the plane. That was it.
DK: So the messages were sent to you in Morse code.
JC: Oh yeah. And what other were — and every hour the people back here used to send out, and this was after the war of course ever hour we answered it. I used to get a report from the navigator to say where we were. You know degrees latitude, longitude and all like that. So we were in contact all the time.
DK: So this every hour message you got had to co — be the same as what the navigator said as to your position.
JC: That’s right. Yeah. And I sent it back then you see. Yeah.
DK: Looking back now how do you see your time in the Air Force?
JC: Well if I was in the Air Force again I wouldn’t like to be in this country. I would like to be abroad. That’s for the simple reason that life was easier out there. I mean we never, never did parades out in — unless it was something special. I always remember in this country before we, when we were in training Queen Mary, old Queen Mary, she was visiting the station. And for two or three weeks there was that much bull, you know, on the station. And the morning she came I think we were there a couple of hours before and we were lining all the way up to the officers mess where they were meeting and greeting her. And she went straight past in the car. And there we were. Absolutely soaked we were. We had the old capes on, you know. Oh yeah. Still that’s things like that.
DK: And the bull in the air force you didn’t, you didn’t like. The parades and —
JC: Well, I wouldn’t say I disliked them because they were a necessity because you can’t beat discipline.
DK: No.
JC: I mean our crew — I should imagine we were one of the best crews. Nobody was called Charlie, Dick or Brian or Trevor or Taffy. Not like we did on the ground. It was, ‘Hello skipper. Wireless op here.’ Blah, blah, blah, blah. And rear gunner, you know. A few days after the war we ran what we called Cook’s Tours and we flew the ground staff low over Germany to let them see the damage. And I said to, I went down to the elsan, it was just this forward of the rear gunner, and I said to the rear gunner, I said — I knocked on his and he opened his thing back you see. And I didn’t let anybody hear. I switched the intercom off and I said, ‘Is it going to be ok if I swap seats with you? You come and sit up, you know.’ I said, ‘I’ll ask the skip.’ ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘Yeah.’ So when I got back I got on the intercom and mentioned and he said, ‘Yeah that’s alright.’ And just as I sat down in the rear turret we were going over Cologne Cathedral. Everything was devastated. It was just like St Paul’s when they missed that. Everything was devastated and there was the cathedral not touched. Another act of God. I used to think of it like that. Yeah.
DK: How did that make you feel to seeing the devastated cities?
JC: Oh, well [pause] I looked at it this way. A lot wouldn’t be leaving that strategic bombing that Bomber Harris did but he tried to win the war with bombing and it nearly succeeded. But what did him and he never, he was never made a lord or anything like that which the majority of them were was the Dresden do. They said it shouldn’t have been but it was war and they proved it afterwards. After the war was well over that there were troops there. So that you see, I mean, I mean you look at, you look at the Americans when they dropped the two bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That was shocking when you come to think about it but it saved millions of lives after. They’d had enough hadn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JC: They’d had enough when that happened. Yeah.
DK: How many Cook’s Tours did you do over Germany?
JC: I think we went on two days. We only did two trips. Took them over and came back because we weren’t the only squadron that were doing it. There were other squadrons doing it as well. In fact I’ve got some photographs somewhere of the, of the places that the we must have had a photographer, a RAF photographer in our plane because [pause] are you alright for time?
DK: Yeah. I’m fine. Yeah.
JC: I’ll just I’ll just one of my albums. I do believe it’s in here.
[pause]
JC: Ahh here we are. I think it’s in here. Aye it is. Look it’s on the first.
DK: Yes.
JC: That’s the date. That’s it.
DK: So that’s the pilot. Chaplin isn’t it?
JC: 17th of the 7th ’45.
JC: Is that a seven?
DK: I think. It looks like possibly. Yeah.
JC: Yeah. This might interest you. Just to look at. That was one of them.
DK: Yeah.
JC: I think there’s another couple somewhere. Oh there we are. That was Essen. That was Emmerich. And what was this one? Wessel.
DK: Wessel.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. There. Look at the devastation there.
DK: And they’re photos from the Cook’s Tours.
JC: Yeah. Cook’s Tours. That was it. Yeah. They are official photographs there.
DK: Yeah.
JC: And these, this is at one of the 100, my squadrons, one of the reunions.
DK: That was Wyton.
JC: October ’85. That’s the year I retired because I retired at sixty. Haven’t a clue where I am there.
DK: 100 Squadron is still going isn’t it?
JC: Oh yes. It’s at Leeming.
DK: Leeming.
JC: I haven’t been this year. I went last year.
DK: Ok. What’s I’ll do, I’ll just stop the recording. Ok. I’ll say thank you for that.
JC: You’re welcome.
DK: Thank you. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Cook
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookJ150709
Format
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00:38:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Cook was born in Mexborough. He left school at 14 and went to work at a Gentlemen’s Outfitters. At 16 he worked on the footplate for LNER. At the age of 18 he volunteered for aircrew and trained as a wireless operator/air gunner; joined 100 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds two or three weeks before the end of the war. Consequently, Jack did not take part in bombing but was involved in Operation Manna, doing two drops.
In February 1946 three of the crews took Lancasters to RAF Abu Sueir in Egypt. After a few weeks they moved to RAF Shallufa, in the Canal Zone, when 104 Squadron was formed. Jack finished up on Ansons doing VIP and mail runs. He flew back in a Lancaster to RAF Kirkham via RAF Silloth, where he was demobbed. Jack flown in Domine, Proctor, Anson, Wellington and a Lancaster.
Jack married in 1951 and had two children, went back to the footplate until 1961. After that he worked as a manager of a fancy goods shop and eventually moved to Bridlington.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
England--Cumbria
Egypt
Egypt--Suez Canal
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1946-02
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
104 Squadron
14 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
Cook’s tour
demobilisation
Dominie
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Abu Sueir
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kirkham
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Shallufa
RAF Silloth
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/766/10767/PDallDKM1601.2.jpg
b5df8b4400540f0c29cf975e92f689ee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/766/10767/ADallDKM161122.1.mp3
c8a57d5afd9ee10d16615f0067dd4195
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dall, David Kenneth McKenzie
D K M Dall
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer David Kenneth McKenzie Dall (b. 1924, 1320652 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dall, DKM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Tuesday the 22nd.
DD: 22nd.
CB: Of November 2016. And we’re in West Hendred with David Dall who was a 101 Squadron man and talking about his life and times. So, what are the earliest things you remember about your life, David?
DD: Well, the first thing I remember was out in Nyasaland. Now Malawi. My father was a tea planter. He used to take me around the tea estate on the back of his motorcycle inspecting stuff. And from there I sort of grew, grew up a little bit more. God. This is very difficult.
CB: We can start again.
DD: Sorry.
CB: Don’t worry.
[recording paused]
DD: My earliest recollections was living on a tea estate in Nyasaland. Now Malawi. I used to go around — I used to go across to my father’s factory most days accompanied by my boy who looked after me. An African whose name was Kaios. That went on ‘til I was about five or six, I think. And I was sent then to the convent to start my education in Limbe. Just outside Blantyre. I stayed there until I was about eight and then came over to this country when my father and mother separated. I was then, I spent one year acclimatizing, being acclimatized to schooling in this country. I went to Streatham Grammar School. And from there I went on to a public school in Suffolk called Framlingham. And I was there until 19 — was it — ‘42. And then my grandmother, my grandmother who was my guardian decided because of air raids around Suffolk that I was to go back to her but she lived in London. And of course the bombings was on at that time 1941/42. Sorry. Not ’42. ’41. Eventually she decided that it wasn’t worth staying there and she managed to buy a house down at Redhill in Surrey. I went down there and although I didn’t do any schooling I stayed there until I was about what seventeen and a half. And because of contacts my grandmother had with the RFC people during the First World War I got to know all the stories about the RFC now the RAF. And it sort of, you know I wanted to join up as soon as possible. And in 1942 I volunteered but I was seventeen. Seventeen and three quarters then. I volunteered for the air force but they turned me down. So I sort of thought about it and eventually I decided to go up to another place and volunteer there. And I got in. That was Croydon. It was, you know it was so busy there you could flannel your way through. So I was accepted there although I was three months under age. I waited and eventually I got a communication from the RAF to go for my interviews in Oxford. The main, the main part of that was in the medical side which I passed. And they sent me back and said wait. And the next thing I knew I was in. I started off — I think it was at Cardington. Yeah. I went through the basics there and got my uniform and all that sort of business. And I had volunteered for aircrew which I, you know I passed in my medical. Wait a minute. Can you stop it a second?
[recording paused]
DD: Not yet.
CB: So we’re just doing an alteration now because it wasn’t Cardington.
DD: No. It was Padgate.
CB: So where did you go to the ITW?
DD: Yeah.
CB: At? Padgate was it?
DD: I didn’t, I have to, I hadn’t — can you switch it off again.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
DD: Cut that. It was from, where did I go? God, I can’t remember. It’s taxing my —
[recording paused]
CB: Back with Madley.
DD: At Madley, I started, I did my first part of the wireless course. And then when I completed that I was posted as, to sort of a holding place at Pengham and Tremorfa in South Wales. From there I went back to Madley to do my, to commence my flying on Proctors and Dominies. When I finished there I went to Manby and did the gunnery course where I got my sergeant stripes and felt very good [laughs] I then went to Millom in Cumberland to do my AFU. And from there when I passed out there to Whitchurch and then on to the satellite at [unclear] to fly on Whitleys and train there. After we finished there and crewed up we then were sent to a holding unit at Boston. And from there we received our engineer and rear gunner to complete the crew. We did a — and went to —
CB: That was at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DD: The Heavy Conversion Unit. Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: And once we passed out there we went to Ludford and there we did —
CB: Which squadron was that?
DD: 101 Squadron at Ludford.
CB: And what was special about 101 Squadron?
DD: It was an ABC Squadron.
CB: Airborne Cigar.
DD: Yeah. Cigar.
CB: What did that mean?
DD: Well, it meant that we had to have an extra member in the crew who understood and spoke German.
CB: Right.
DD: I’ve told you that.
CB: Ok. What happened when you arrived at Ludford?
DD: When we arrived at Ludford we had to do a little bit more training and eventually we were informed that we were going to carry an extra member of the crew who spoke German and understood. His job mainly was to jam up night fighter stations and ground stations. After, after, after we finished our initial training there we were then unfortunately set onto the worst trip of all. Berlin. We did two Berlins on the trot. And we had a break and we did our third Berlin. And then we did, gradually went through different bombing raids until one I most remember was Nuremberg where unfortunately we lost seven aircraft. Which meant we lost fifty six people. And from there on we had quite a good run with the trips until we reached our thirtieth mission. We thought we were finished but that was the night before the night of D-Day and we volunteered for one extra trip. But there’s one trip I do remember. When they first started using the blue searchlights. We were in the front coming after we had bombed, on the way back we were suddenly caught in this blue searchlight and the next thing we knew we were diving straight to the ground to try and miss all the searchlights coming up. The blue lights. We ended up about two or three hundred feet off the ground. Yeah. That was from the height of about seventeen thousand approximately. I know my rear gunner was blinded by the searchlights as we passed through them going down. He just couldn’t see anything. He’ll tell you that too. That was a rather a nasty trip but going back to our last trip, coming back it was a most amazing sight. Oh, we did two trips around Europe drawing fighters away from the coast. You know, for D-Day. For the landings. When we’d completed those and we were returning to England we saw the invasion forces coming in and it was the most marvellous sight I’ve ever seen in my life. The hundreds and hundreds of ships in the Channel. It was beyond belief to see what was going on down there. And eventually we landed back at Ludford and that was us finished. That’s it.
CB: When you were on the ops to draw the fighters away how did — was that daylight?
DD: No. Night.
CB: That was night.
DD: Night. Yes. All night trips.
CB: So what was the, were you bombing on that?
DD: We did a bombing raid. Yes. As far as I can remember. Yeah. We did. Yeah.
CB: And how effective was the drawing away?
DD: Well, apparently very few fighters and bombers hit the beaches, you know. The numbers were, mind you they were, they didn’t have a lot of fuel for the aircraft in those days. The Germans didn’t have the fuel and they were running down. So in a way we helped a bit but not a great deal I don’t think.
CB: So, when you went on the raids other squadrons would assemble and then get into the bomber stream.
DD: We were spaced out.
CB: How did your 101 fit in to the bomber stream?
DD: Well, 101 was fit, was spaced out in the bomber stream. From the beginning to the end.
CB: Right.
DD: I don’t know what distances apart they were but different heights and different levels. But the one thing I do remember on the night of Nuremberg all the aircraft that we did see shot down. But we were told afterwards that they were oil bombs that blew up in the sky to, you know to frighten us. I think there was something, something there you could look into actually. But we thought, we were told that all these big sort of bursts of flame were oil, ack-ack and things. And you know at the time it really worried us actually.
CB: Did it?
DD: Because we thought it was all the aircraft going down.
CB: How many did you see go down yourselves on that raid?
DD: I never, I didn’t count them but it went on and on all night. Going to the target and coming back. But we were very lucky. But we were lucky we had what was called Monica which picked up, you know it couldn’t really differentiate between a fighter and a bomber except that the bomber was a bigger blip on the screen to the fighter.
CB: So this was a rear looking radar detector.
DD: Yeah. And which, which I was monitoring all the time. As soon as I picked up one I’d inform the pilot what to do. You know, whether to turn port, dive port or, you know, climb or something like that. But they were very basic. It was a very basic thing but it did help. And —
CB: So when you saw all these planes exploding.
DD: We thought were planes.
CB: Yeah. How did you think — what did you think about that?
DD: Well we were a bit shattered.
CB: Were you?
DD: I think the morale in the crew went down a little bit.
CB: Did it?
DD: But — and we weren’t really told much about it when we got back to base.
CB: And did, when you got down to debriefing after a sortie what did you do?
DD: Well, we told them all about it. Of course they were interested in that because they didn’t realise how many aircraft had been lost actually at that time. But the morale on the squadron the next day was rather low.
CB: Was it?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Because they lost ninety.
DD: We’d lost seven. We lost seven aircraft.
CB: Ninety eight. Yeah. You’d lost seven. Yes.
DD: Yeah. On that.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That was fifty six people and the messes were empty. Well, not empty but you know really reduced and it affected us a little bit that.
CB: Now, your crew came from a variety of places. What, where, where —how many were Brits and how many were Canadian?
DD: Well, we had three Canadians.
CB: Who were they?
DD: The pilot, the navigator and the bomb aimer. And the rest were British.
CB: Right.
DD: Although I was allowed to wear the Rhodesian flash. I got permission for that from Rhodesia House.
CB: That was good.
DD: Yeah. Because you see it on one of the photographs.
CB: Yes.
DD: You see my Rhodesia up there.
CB: Right. And how many of the crew were commissioned?
DD: One.
CB: And —
DD: Just one.
CB: Who was he?
DD: The pilot.
CB: Right.
DD: The navigator was commissioned after the tour finished I think. Yes. He got his commission just after.
CB: And how many were decorated at the end of the tour?
DD: Oh. The Canadians were. We weren’t.
CB: Right. What did they get?
DD: DFCs.
CB: Right.
DD: Or DFCs and DFMs. But the English crew we got nothing.
CB: No.
DD: Nothing at all.
CB: Ok. How well did the crew gel?
DD: Very well indeed. We all, when we were doing our training and our sort of air tests and all that sort of business we each took each other’s jobs. We learned them that way.
CB: There was a purpose to that. So what was it?
DD: In case. In case we were, you know someone was killed or wounded or something like that. We could take over. Someone could take over the job. But we went through all of them. We didn’t have much to do with the engineer. At least I didn’t. But I sort of knew the navigator’s job and did a bit with the bomb aimer. And of course gunnery I knew. And that’s the way we sort of carried on. You know, we kept on learning about each other’s jobs and I think that’s the reason why we got through.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Because we, you know we knew our jobs so well. Plus the fact that we had a very very good pilot. He was good. There was no doubt about that.
CB: What age was he?
DD: He was the oldest in the crew. Twenty four I think.
CB: Oh really old then.
DD: Yeah [laughs] he was. We used to think of him as the old man.
CB: Yeah. Now, you were a wireless operator. So, what, what was your role? What were you actually doing on the sorties? On the operations.
DD: On the operations I was taking the wind speeds because as, the wireless operator used to do a lot of work with the navigator. We were getting wind speeds from back in the UK from Group. And not only that we were monitoring on this Monica so you know sort of one side the other one there. Doing that sort of business. We were trained in Gee. You know —
CB: Which was the plotting system.
DD: The plotting system.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Yeah. And I used to help the navigator with that as well when I had a quiet period. Giving him some readings as and when he wanted.
CB: Because that’s how he found on the lattice because it was a lattice system.
DD: Yeah. Aye.
CB: So that’s how you were following where — your location.
DD: Our location on the ground. Yes.
CB: And how far was that effective away from base?
DD: It was quite — initially it wasn’t very good. But it gradually got better and better more or less each trip we did because information was coming in all the time and someone was looking into that.
CB: And when you were — the Monica was designed to alert the crew to the appearance of night fighters.
DD: Mainly the pilot.
CB: Yeah.
DD: As soon as I saw anything that came up on the, on the screen I would tell the pilot to dive port or dive starboard depending on which area the aircraft was coming in and get him sort of aircraft port quarter.
CB: Right.
DD: Starboard or something like that. Whichever way it was the pilot would dive down and do his, you know — squiggle [laughs]
CB: Do a corkscrew.
DD: The corkscrew. Yeah.
CB: You had to hold on when he did the corkscrew.
DD: You certainly did. Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: Straight. Ray, Ray was a very energetic pilot I would say.
CB: You had, as a signaller you had regular communication at a timed space. How did that work?
DD: Timed space. Every fifteen minutes I would have Group. And then we could listen out for any other information that was coming in.
CB: Which would be what?
DD: Well, mainly to do with, well the wind. The windspeed was the Group one. When we got far away, you know some distance away from England we just kept to the Group and listened out to them for any information.
CB: So —
DD: Because as I say normally it was every fifteen minutes but if anything special came up it would come in between.
CB: Now, you and the navigator were also yourselves were you measuring wind speed?
DD: Well, he was.
CB: How did he do that?
DD: I didn’t do the windspeeds. The navigator did all that. One of the things I used to do was to stand in the astrodome to check out, you know aircraft. You know, when I wasn’t looking on the Monica. If it was quiet I’d be looking around and see what was going on. Sometimes you know if we were flying a bit low from there you could pick out features on the ground. If, if there was any light down there. See what — from the astrodome I could see any ack-ack. You know. Where it was bursting. Where the searchlights were. That all came into it. You know, you were talking all the time either to the skipper or the navigator.
CB: And how often did you see other aircraft near you while you were on the op?
DD: Not, not a lot until you got to the bombing stage. When you were on the run in. Generally the aircraft were all coming closer and you’d see people up there, down there. In fact one night we just missed a load of bombs that came out of an aircraft above us.
CB: Did you make the call? Did you? To the pilot.
DD: No. WT silence.
CB: No. No. But I meant did you tell the pilot?
DD: Oh, yes. Yes.
CB: About the aircraft above.
DD: Well he saw. Everyone saw it.
CB: Oh right.
DD: Except the rear gunner. He was out of it [laughs]
CB: So, in that circumstance what does the pilot do? Does he, if it’s ahead does he throttle back or does he move? I mean, it’s —
DD: Well, as far as I remember he kept steady. Steady on that route.
CB: And just hope it didn’t hit you.
DD: Well, you could see them coming down. More or less by the time you got to that spot you know you were clear. You could go through. But it didn’t happen very often but it did happen occasionally.
CB: There’s a, there’s a famous picture somewhere of a Lancaster with no rear turret.
DD: Yes.
CB: Because it had been —
DD: Yeah. Hit it.
CB: Demolished from bombs from above.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So this was a constant.
DD: It was a worry.
CB: Yes.
DD: But not only that actually. The prospect of a collision over the target was very real.
CB: Right.
DD: You know. You know, if you’re flying slightly off course and coming in you could sort of hit each other.
CB: Yes. Did your pilot tend to fly slightly on the outside and then move in or was he always tried to be in the middle of the melee?
DD: He was generally in the middle. Once or twice we had to go around again. Which wasn’t very pleasant.
CB: You mean you didn’t drop the bombs. You went around.
DD: We didn’t drop the bombs. No.
CB: Or if you were too soon.
DD: The ack-ack was too strong and we had to move away.
CB: Right.
DD: And go around again.
CB: Right.
DD: And redo our bombing raid.
CB: So you were looking out for the flak. Were you looking for the flak boxes?
DD: What do you mean flak boxes?
CB: Where they had concentrations of flak in a particular height or a particular area.
DD: Oh yes. Yes. Well, at that stage you were looking forward. To see, you know any boxes as you say. If you saw it dead ahead which obviously the pilot could see as well you didn’t say anything. But if you saw it off to the side then you would inform him.
CB: Right.
DD: Or even if it was behind you.
CB: Because he couldn’t see it.
DD: Because over the bombing, the bombing run, my job was actually to be in the astrodome to see what was going on around and inform everyone.
CB: During the bombing run.
DD: During the bombing run. Until we actually got to the bombing run. Even then when you came out of the bombing run well Ray always used to make a swish down. Out of the way.
CB: Get to the —
DD: Get to below the bombing, bombing height. So we went down about two or three thousand feet to get out and then he’d start climbing up a bit. But it varied actually. He, he decided what he did then. We didn’t of course.
CB: But he would turn left or right after releasing the bombs?
DD: Not always. Sometimes he went —
CB: Just straight on.
DD: Straight on and down. You know. Gently going down. Watching out for other aircraft if they were lower. Especially when, if the Halifaxes were low, or the Stirlings. You couldn’t go down to their level of course. You only went down about two or three thousand feet.
CB: Still.
DD: It was a bit different to that flak level which, you know it helped us sometimes because we, sometimes the rear gunner would say flak was on our trail. You’d see it bombing you know. Getting there. Because there were so many guns around. Well especially Berlin. There was something like sixty thousand guns. We never liked that [laughs]
CB: No.
DD: That was one of our horror trips.
CB: How often did the aircraft get hit?
DD: We weren’t hit at all actually. We were lucky in that respect. As I say the fact we had such a good pilot. He knew what to do exactly. Get out of the way of things.
CB: And did you experience any night fighters behind you on any occasions?
DD: On Monica. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
DD: But when you gave the order for the pilot to do something he got away from them [pause]
CB: So you never got shot at by a pilot, by a fighter.
DD: We did one night. The attack was starting but we’d picked it up on Monica and we got out of the way. He lost us. As I say Ray was such a good pilot he knew where to go and get out of the way of everything.
CB: How did the crew respond to Monica? What did they think about it?
DD: They liked it. The gunners. The two gunners loved it. You know. We could tell them exactly where to look.
CB: Right.
DD: Because when you’re looking into the dark all the time you can’t see. Your eyes get a bit blurry. But if you know where to look, concentrate on that, it was a big help.
CB: Now, you’ve got the eighth man in the aircraft. To what extent did you link in with him? Because he was using electronic equipment.
DD: Yeah.
CB: And you were the radio man.
DD: Yeah. Well, I I if I could pick you know in a quiet run anywhere if I could pick up a night fighter station anywhere I would inform him. I didn’t have a lot to do with him. They were kept separate to us.
CB: Was he always the same man?
DD: No. No.
CB: Or did it vary?
DD: No. Different one. Although we had one bloke I think we flew about three or four times with. But that was rather unusual. But he liked our crew apparently. And as I say they were a thing on their own.
CB: What did you know about them?
DD: Nothing. We were kept separate from them.
CB: Did they speak to the crew in any way?
DD: Oh, when we were in the aircraft occasionally but not during a flight.
CB: Right.
DD: They were completely on their own.
CB: So where were they sitting? So —
DD: They were sitting just behind the main spar. They had, I think there were three transmitters and two receivers. And they sat there. Opposite the rest bed.
CB: And where was their aerial? What was it like? And where was it?
DD: Don’t know. We had nothing to do with it.
CB: No. But it was, it was sticking out of the aircraft.
DD: There was one sticking out, yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DD: But we, we knew nothing about it.
CB: That was the ABC. The airborne cigar. Wasn’t it?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: I think so.
CB: So on the ground then to what extent did you fraternise with any of the special ops people?
DD: We didn’t. We didn’t fraternise at all.
CB: Why was that?
DD: Well, they were kept separate from us completely.
CB: In, in what way?
DD: Well, we just didn’t meet them.
CB: They lived somewhere different did they?
DD: Probably. We didn’t know anything. Once we got back on the ground and we went for debriefing we didn’t see them again.
CB: Oh. Did they go into debriefing or were they —
DD: No.
CB: They were debriefed separately.
DD: I can’t remember seeing them.
CB: Right.
DD: Maybe one or two did. I don’t know. But they were a law unto themselves as far as we were concerned. We had nothing to do with them.
CB: So they were German speakers. How many of them did you think were not Brits anyway?
DD: Well, we didn’t know how many there were but we had a few that were Brits. When I say a few I think over the whole course we probably had about three or four. The rest were foreigners mostly.
CB: Native German speakers.
DD: Well, yeah. Well, there were a lot of Poles, Czechs. No, we didn’t have much to do with them.
CB: No. Going to your earlier time when you crewed up how did that work?
DD: Very well indeed.
CB: So what happened?
DD: Well, we were put into this room and all everyone was milling around and talking to people. A couple of people asked me, you know if I was, you know wanted me to join them. I wasn’t. Actually, I saw Ray. I liked the look of him.
CB: The pilot.
DD: Yeah. So eventually I made my way across to him and had a talk. He brought in the navigator and we got on well the three of us. And that was it. We crewed up.
CB: And then there was the third Canadian. I mean did they get together because they knew —
DD: The bomb aimer.
CB: They were Canadian or —
DD: Yeah. Probably.
CB: Just coincidence.
DD: Yeah. He, he joined in at the end I think. There was a bit of a mish mash of things but you know, you’re all milling around and —
CB: Yeah.
DD: If you liked the look of someone or thought you they might be a good, you know crew mate you got on to them. But it was a strange affair but it worked well really. Then we, we all gelled. Yeah.
HD: A good job you did.
CB: So that was at the OTU. But how many crew were there then? That wasn’t the full.
DD: No. We had the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer and one gunner.
CB: Yeah. And then you.
DD: And me.
CB: And you were a wireless operator/air gunner.
DD: Yeah.
CB: What was the brevet you were wearing at that stage?
DD: At that time it was the AG bridge.
CB: And you had a flash on your sleeve.
DD: Oh, you had a wireless.
CB: Showing you were a wireless operator.
DD: Yeah. Aye.
CB: Right.
DD: And then that changed did it? Later.
CB: Well no. Not until I came, after I came out.
DD: Right.
CB: And then you —
DD: They had the signals badge then.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
DD: I didn’t get that. I was a W/op AG. You see, I had the two jobs.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So —
DD: But the ones that came in afterwards. They all wore, the wireless people —
CB: Yeah.
DD: All wore Ss.
CB: So, were you pleased to keep the W/op AG?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Rather than a signaller.
DD: I was.
CB: Right. There was a better badge of respectability.
DD: [laughs] Well, I suppose it was in way. It meant you —
CB: Well, you’d done more hadn’t you?
DD: You were an older member.
CB: Yes. Established member.
DD: Aye.
CB: So, when you got to the HCU then the flight engineer came. So how did he and the rear gunner, how did they get selected?
DD: Oh the rear gunner was selected in the mish mash. We got him there.
CB: You were short of one. One gunner.
DD: Yeah. Mid-upper.
CB: Yeah. Mid-upper.
DD: Mid-upper.
CB: Ok. So how did you get him?
DD: He was sent to us.
CB: Sent to you.
DD: Sent. Yeah.
CB: Right. What about the engineer? How did he come into the —
DD: He was also sent to us.
CB: Oh right. No choice.
DD: No choice.
CB: Right.
DD: No.
CB: And how did that do? How did they gel with everybody else?
DD: Well, at first we weren’t very happy about it. The mid-upper gunner — it took a little bit longer to get to know him because he was a very strong Welsh chap. Very taciturn. We didn’t know quite what to make of him at first but eventually it turned out that he sort of relaxed a bit and he was, he was ok. You know, he gelled alright then.
CB: And the engineer?
DD: The engineer was a Cockney from London. Arthur Moore. He was, [laughs] he was a strange chap but we liked him.
CB: And then —
DD: But he wasn’t really part of the original crew.
CB: No. That’s what I meant. Yeah.
DD: It took a little while to get used to them both but eventually they did. They gelled in with us.
CB: And had he been trained as a flight engineer or had he originally been a flight mechanic? An air mechanic.
DD: No. He was trained as a, as a flight engineer.
CB: Right.
DD: Didn’t know a lot about him. He kept himself to himself. But I can’t — no. He was, yeah he was trained as a flight engineer. I’m pretty sure about that. Smithy can confirm that.
CB: Now, thinking about the social side. So how did, how did that gel?
DD: Well, we had a motorbike.
CB: Oh.
DD: And sidecar.
CB: For all seven of you. Yeah.
DD: There’s a photograph of it.
CB: Yes.
DD: We did one night get seven on it and got stopped by the police [laughs] It was a night out in Louth. Oh dear.
CB: It must have been a good one. Yes.
DD: It was a good one that.
CB: Yes.
DD: I can’t tell you. We were hanging out all over the place [laughs] But normally it was quite ok.
CB: Yeah.
DD: If we went into Louth to go in the cinema or something like that we used to get a taxi mainly. But this one night I don’t know why. I think, we didn’t go in on it. We came back on it, I think.
CB: Who did it belong to then?
DD: Pardon?
CB: The pilot? Did it —
DD: It belonged to, the navigator had some relations in Wolverhampton and they gave him the bike.
CB: With the sidecar.
DD: With the sidecar. And he brought it back to the squadron. Yeah. We had some good times there.
CB: What happened on the airfield? Did they have dances on the airfield? Or did you —
DD: Oh there were very few dances. Very very few. Normally when you had a stand down well you either stay in the station or went off into Louth or something like that.
CB: Market Rasen?
DD: Occasionally. Not so much. Mainly Louth we went into.
CB: Any other places that you would consider?
DD: Grimsby.
CB: Grimsby.
DD: Yeah. Cleethorpes.
CB: Have a fight with the sailors.
DD: No. Didn’t have any problems up there at all. Yeah. It sort of mixed quite well actually from what I remember.
CB: Well, places like North Coates were Coastal Command so did you link —
DD: No.
CB: In any way with them on a social?
DD: No. Not at all.
CB: Didn’t come across them.
DD: No. No. I can’t remember anything about that.
CB: No. So you got to the end of the tour. Thirty one ops. Is that right?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Because you did the extra.
DD: Thirty one there.
CB: Then what happened?
DD: Well, we just [pause] well for about a week after we finished and then we were all sort of posted off different places. We didn’t — mainly we, mainly we didn’t see each other again. I did meet up, when I was attached to a Canadian OTU I met up with the skipper then.
CB: Where was that?
DD: That was Gamston near Retford.
CB: So, when you were at the end where were you posted immediately after?
DD: Well, I was posted to Gamston.
CB: Oh you were. Yeah.
DD: There was a bit of a mish mash that happened from there on. We were sort of posted around. When the OTU closed we were sent off to Peplow. We were there for about a week and then oh we went all around different places for a about week or two weeks’ time ‘til eventually — where did we get to? Oh, I finished up at Gamston. Again.
CB: Again.
DD: Yeah. On ferry flight. We were ferrying the old Wimpies.
CB: Where did you —
DD: Down to Little Rissington.
CB: Oh yeah.
DD: There were hundreds down there.
CB: They were breaking them up.
DD: Breaking them up. Yeah.
CB: And what did they do? Take you back with an, in an Anson or something.
DD: No. Three aircraft used to go down.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Two were delivered. One brought us back.
CB: Right.
DD: It was alright until we had some bad weather and we landed at Cranwell and they didn’t want us there [laughs] We were all scruffy, you know. In our flying gear and everything. We had to go in to the mess like that and people’s faces were looking down at us. Oh God it was terrible. Oh dear. I shan’t forget. I was flying with, the pilot was a Flight Lieutenant Bristow. He was a Canadian and he and I really got [laughs] got on well. But the way they treated us. They couldn’t get rid of us quick enough. Although you know we’d landed on the grass airfield and this this Wimpy had sunk in. They didn’t like that. They didn’t like anything about us.
CB: So when is this? This is late ’44.
DD: This would be oh ’45.
CB: ’45.
DD: ’45. Anyway, we got out. We collected. We didn’t even stay the night there. We went off as soon as we could.
CB: Yeah. So —
DD: We were supposed to stay the night because of the weather but they, they pushed us off.
CB: Yeah. So, I meant to say late ’45 because the war had ended then. Had it?
DD: Yes. Because we were doing the ferrying and it had all finished.
CB: Yeah.
DD: And the Canadian OTU, they closed down and all the Canadians went back.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That’s where I met up with my skipper.
CB: Right.
DD: Because he came down there for three days. And —
CB: By coincidence was it? Or did he come to say hello?
DD: No. No. He was posted there because that was a holding unit before they went off.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
DD: To where ever they were going.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Yeah. I didn’t see him again until nineteen — no 2002.
CB: What happened then?
DD: Well, in between he’d, I was out in Africa. He was flying. He started off, he was in the, he joined the Canadian Air Force out there flying Sabres in Germany and then when he came out he joined a civilian — he became a civilian pilot. And whilst I was in Nyasaland and Rhodesia he was, he was coming to Zambia to try to catch each other. He tried many a time to get hold of me but we always seemed to miss each other. And in my second, in my second tour with the air force when I was out in Hong Kong he used to get a flight to Singapore. But I didn’t know that. Oh I just tried to get hold of him.
CB: So, fast backwards or where we were just with Gamston. That was where they were repatriating the Canadians.
DD: The Canadians. Yeah.
CB: What was your role there? Just delivering aircraft was it? For —
DD: Well no. I was only, only there was an OTU going on.
CB: It was still running.
DD: It was still running.
CB: Right.
DD: And we were getting English people in and I was an instructor there.
CB: Before you did the —
DD: No. The ferry flight came first and then we went back to the OTU.
CB: Right.
DD: That was it.
CB: And how long did that go on for?
DD: Not for very long because it closed down. And then —
CB: Then what?
DD: Eventually I was sent to Brize [pause] not Brize Norton. To Finningley. Bomber Command Instructor School.
CB: And you were training instructors were you?
DD: Well, yes. People who had finished their tours. This included pilots navigators and navigators. We had to teach them to be instructors. We had a few wireless people but not many. But their jobs were to go out then and teach others.
CB: And how long did you do that for?
DD: Oh, I was there for about a year. And then I, you know, the war had finished and it was getting a bit iffy so I decided, you know I’d come out and go back. My father wanted me out there.
CB: So when did you actually leave the RAF?
DD: The beginning of ’46.
CB: You were demobbed in the normal way.
DD: Well, not in the normal way. No. I got a class B discharge.
CB: Right.
DD: Which was an immediate. You know immediately coming out.
CB: Yeah.
DD: I had to wait three — I think it was three months until I got posted out to the Palestine Police stationed at Jenin.
CB: So you’d volunteered then.
DD: I volunteered for it. Yeah.
CB: As you were serving out your demob leave was it that you volunteered?
DD: No. No. I didn’t get any demob leave. I got a demob suit and all that sort of business but I had volunteered to transfer. That’s why I got a class B discharge.
CB: Yeah. To the police.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So the motive of applying for the Palestine Police was what?
DD: To get to Africa.
CB: Right. How was that going to work?
DD: Well, it was more or less although it was semi, it was more or less half. Half civilian and half [pause] not army but what do you call, what do you call it?
CB: What? Military police?
DD: Semi-military and half civilian. But you could, you know if you didn’t like it you could buy yourself out. That was the idea. Buy myself out and then I could get down to [unclear] and up to Nyasaland.
CB: So what role was yours in the Palestine police?
DD: I was only just a British constable. Just a basic.
CB: So they gave you training there or in Britain?
DD: Well, I didn’t have any training at all because I ended up in hospital.
CB: Why was that?
DD: I got Blackwater Fever?
CB: Oh. How did you get that?
DD: Well, the boats that used to come up from [unclear] had, you know sometimes they had mosquitoes in and they’d got a chap off the boat who was down with Blackwater Fever. Brought him to the hospital I was in. Probably the mosquito that had bitten him then bit me. I got it. So I was invalided out. And that was that.
CB: To where?
DD: I was invalided back to this country. And that was the end of that.
CB: So that was the opposite way from what —
DD: Yeah.
CB: You wanted to go.
DD: And that, it took me another three years before I could get a boat. As I told you. I got a job with the African, not the African Lace Corporation err what were they? They were tied up with the African lace. They used to send people out to do jobs in Africa. So I got a job with them because you know one of the people who, the person who wrote to me was a friend of my father’s. Had lived out in Nyasaland.
CB: Right.
DD: So he got me out there.
CB: But it took three years to do it.
DD: Yeah. It did.
CB: What were you actually doing in that time?
DD: Oh I got various little jobs you know. You know, I didn’t do very much. I joined actually a chap who did landscaping and a sort of a gardening job because I didn’t want to be inside. I got a job with him for a while.
CB: Where was that?
DD: That was Redhill.
CB: You were staying with your grandparents, were you?
DD: Yes. My grandmother.
CB: Right.
DD: It brought some money in. It wasn’t a well-paid job but I knew, you know eventually I was going to get back to Africa. So I couldn’t go for a decent job until after I’d been there a year. I did get a job with a garage.
CB: Doing?
DD: In Redhill.
CB: Doing what?
DD: Well, I was —
CB: The electrics was it?
DD: The electrics. Yeah. I was, I was looking after the batteries you know. The batteries and things like that. And then you know I got this. I kept an eye out for anything going in Africa and my father was trying to get me out there. But eventually I saw this advertisement in, “The Times.” Wrote off. Got the job.
CB: What was it?
DD: Oh, just a store keeper in a — working in a store. So it got me out there and —
CB: Where?
DD: Out to Nyasaland.
CB: Right.
DD: And I didn’t fancy that work at all. Obviously. So I repaid. I’d saved up money then and I repaid them and I bought myself out. And joined my father. That was it.
CB: And what was he doing then?
DD: He’d retired but he’d bought this place down in Rhodesia and no sooner than I did that —
CB: This was tobacco.
DD: Tobacco. Yeah. As soon as I did that I joined him. Got stuck in. Yeah.
CB: So how was that, how was that managed? Was there a professional manager?
DD: No, my father was looking after it.
CB: He was still doing it.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: He was doing it. But I gradually sort of started taking over the curing and sorting of the tobacco and selling it on the, in the auction houses. And after I’d been there a second year there we hit the highest price ever known because we managed to get some American tobacco seed which was called Hicks. And that produced a larger leaf and a brighter leaf which we, we managed to get an ounce of that. An ounce of seed. Grew that. And we were the first people to hit a hundred pence on the auction floor. At a hundred pence, you know, a pound. And then [pause] a little bit later that was, then my father passed on.
CB: Oh. So —
DD: I couldn’t afford, I hadn’t got the money because we were still paying. Paying out on the tractors and things. I couldn’t afford to, you know stay there.
CB: What? To keep it rolling.
DD: No. So I sold up and came back to this country.
CB: So when you sold up was it a ready market for other —
DD: Oh yeah. It was a good market.
CB: Right.
DD: Yeah. But actually you couldn’t get a lot of money back but we managed to just about break even. That was it.
CB: Because you’d — the tractors and equipment were on loans were they? So —
DD: Yeah. And all the fire equipment for the barns was expensive stuff.
CB: Right.
DD: Which you couldn’t buy outright. You had to buy, you know it was like a never never.
CB: Yeah. So, what are we talking about now? That’s — it took you three years to get out there.
DD: Aye.
CB: So, that was 1949.
DD: Yeah. ’49. And I was there ‘til ’54. Wasn’t it?
HD: Well, I met you in ’56.
DD: ’55.
HD: Was it ’55?
DD: ’55. Yeah. ’54 I came back to this country. Yeah.
CB: Ok. So what did you do then?
DD: Oh. Various jobs. I had a couple of jobs. One job I did or two jobs actually. One I lost the job because my son was born. I met Hilda and we married and had our first son and because I took a day off I lost the job.
CB: Oh.
DD: Yeah. Do you remember that?
HD: Was that when I had Jan?
DD: Yeah. When Jan was born.
HD: Yeah. You took a day off didn’t you?
DD: I was working at — what was it? Fields. And because I took a day off without telling them because Hilda started having Jan the night before. The Sunday night. And —
HD: You took the Monday off.
DD: I took the Monday off and I was sacked. Just like that.
CB: A bit severe.
DD: Yeah. It was severe. I thought —
HD: I wouldn’t happen today would that. Would it?
DD: Oh God no.
CB: So what did you do then?
DD: Well, I got a job. Where was it? As a salesman didn’t I? But I didn’t like that. Anyway, you know I could see there was no future in what I was doing so I decided you know the air force was. So, I went in and looked into that. They said they’d have me back.
CB: When was that?
DD: That was when?
HD: 1959 that was.
DD: No. ’58, wasn’t it? When I started. ’58. Because ’59 I went back in.
CB: And what did you do? So, you left the RAF as a warrant officer.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Originally. And with all the trappings of that. When you returned what did they do about your rank?
DD: My rank? It went down to corporal.
CB: Oh. And what were you doing?
DD: Well, I went, I didn’t have to do the basic training. I went straight in and went to Hullavington where I was on — was it — was it Parachute Servicing Unit.
CB: Parachute School.
DD: Yeah. I went there.
CB: And what were you doing there?
DD: Well, as a corporal I was a checker for the parachute packers.
CB: Checking the quality of what they’d done.
DD: Yeah. Yeah. I was there for about a year wasn’t it? About a year. Then I went to Watchfield.
CB: And you got a quarter did you? Because you were married. You got a quarter, did you?
DD: We got a quarter. Yeah.
CB: As a corporal.
DD: As a corporal. Yeah.
CB: What was that like?
DD: It wasn’t too bad. At Bicester. Was it?
HD: No. It was quite nice.
DD: Yeah.
CB: At Bicester?
DD: Well, we were at Bicester when it first — sorry.
CB: Hullavington.
DD: Hullavington. We went from Bicester, I went to Watchfield and then down to Hullavington didn’t I? That was it. And then I went back to Watchfield.
CB: Right. So, Watchfield. What was going on there? Because it used to be the Air Traffic School in the war.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So what had happened?
DD: They were dropping. Well, it was a training ground for dropping MSPs and also troops.
CB: What’s MSP stand for?
DD: What is it? Referring to parachutes MSP is a Medium Special Parachute.
CB: Right.
DD: The heavy duty ones.
CB: Right.
DD: Dropping Land Rovers and such like.
HD: From Watchfield —
DD: Yeah.
HD: We went to Netheravon.
DD: Oh that’s right. Netheravon. Oh God. Yeah. I’d forgotten about that.
HD: We didn’t go to, we didn’t go to Hullavington until after we had [unclear]
DD: That’s right. We went from —
HD: Watchfield. The first time.
DD: We went to Netheravon.
HD: Netheravon.
CB: And what happened there?
DD: I was running a parachute unit.
CB: And what rank were you by this time?
DD: I was sergeant.
CB: Right. So, were you a sergeant at Watchfield?
DD: Yes.
CB: Right.
HD: You got made up at Watchfield.
DD: Aye. I went to Netheravon. I was there for how long? About —
HD: About nine month.
DD: Nine months and then we went to Hong Kong.
CB: Ok. And you were still a sergeant or have you got promoted again?
DD: No. I stuck to sergeant.
HD: You did ask to get a commission though didn’t you?
DD: Yes.
HD: To go for a commission.
DD: Out in Hong Kong we had our own little parachute unit you know. To look after the aircraft coming in.
CB: Right.
DD: I had a small staff there. We were there for — what? Two and a half years. And then we came back to Hullavington. That’s it. Yeah.
CB: So the parachute section out in Hong Kong. Did that require more common re-packing of parachutes because of the climate?
DD: No. We didn’t. No. We didn’t. We kept emergency equipment for any aircraft coming in. That was the main job there.
HD: Yeah. It was very interesting out there because the Vietnam war on at that time wasn’t it?
DD: And we used to get all the Americans coming up from Vietnam.
CB: Vietnam.
DD: Yeah.
HD: And the bombs going all around the island.
DD: Oh yeah. Whilst we were there you know the Chinese started playing up a bit. And I was official machine gunner.
CB: Oh.
DD: One machine gun we had there [laughs]
CB: Where did you keep that?
DD: Well, I didn’t keep it. It was kept in the armoury. But I would have to go on the top of the roof and sit there with it. That was my job.
CB: What kind of gun was that?
DD: It was a Lewis gun.
CB: With a rotating drum.
DD: Yeah. That’s all. Oh it was, it was a funny place that.
CB: That was on the airfield.
DD: Not on the airfield. It was just on, it used to be the old seaplane unit.
CB: Oh.
DD: And, oh and then I took over the running of the cinema. It was, it was a glory job.
HD: But you had a lot to do with, I mean when that plane landed didn’t you?
DD: Oh yes. When we had the emergencies.
CB: What sort of things?
DD: Oh.
CB: With aircraft you mean?
DD: With aircraft. Yeah. They’d lost an aircraft out at sea and they thought it was shot down by the Chinese. And we had an Argosy out there that I had to go on it and be a sort of an observer.
CB: Out at the crash site.
DD: No. We couldn’t find it.
CB: No. But you went out as an observer.
DD: It was, yeah.
CB: To find the crash.
DD: To try and find it. See any wreckage or anything.
CB: Yeah.
DD: But we found nothing at all. I don’t know what happened there but it was something to do with some — we found out later it was something to do with some spies that had been on the plane. And that’s why they wanted to find the wreckage and find them I suppose.
CB: Yeah.
DD: I don’t know.
CB: What sort of a plane was it?
DD: An Argosy.
CB: Oh right.
DD: It was not stationed there but it had been there for a couple of weeks. It was due to go out the following week and they just asked for people to go on the plane to observe.
CB: Because they needed lots of eyes to see.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So, how long were you in Hong Kong?
DD: Two and a half years.
CB: What was the quarter like there?
DD: Well, we had, we started off in civilian flats actually in the town.
CB: Oh.
DD: And then eventually we got a bungalow on the airfield.
CB: Yeah. Air conditioned?
DD: No. Fans [laughs]
CB: So, two and a half years later you returned to the UK. Where did you go then?
DD: Hullavington.
CB: Right. And what’s your new role there?
DD: I took over the, I was in the office then recording stuff. Numbers of parachutes packed and all that sort of business.
CB: Because you were the specialist parachute person.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Right. How long did that last?
DD: I did a bit of time study there as well.
CB: Oh right. They sent you on a course did they?
DD: No. They knew I’d been on a course. When I, you know, when I was at Bradford I’d been on that course. Time study. I had it in my background so they got me doing that. Working out times for the packing of parachutes.
CB: Then what? So, you were there at Hullavington how long?
HD: Nine month. It was usually nine month everywhere we went really.
DD: And then we went to — where was it?
HD: Watchfield again.
DD: Watchfield. Oh yeah. Back doing the same job as before.
CB: Right.
HD: Then about nine month there and we went back to Hullavington.
DD: Yeah. And then got posted to Brize. Didn’t we?
HD: No. We were never posted to Brize. We went to —
DD: Not Brize.
HD: To Abingdon.
DD: Abingdon, yeah. To Abingdon, Sorry.
CB: Ok. And what happened at Abingdon?
HD: Oh we stayed there for —
CB: It was a transport base by then wasn’t it?
DD: Yeah. More or less the same. I was running, they were sending, I was attached to the parachutists. The parachutists again. We used to get the supplies up from Hullavington and then issue them out to troops. That was about it actually.
CB: So when did you retire from the RAF?
DD: ’81.
CB: Ok. And where did you retire from?
DD: From Brize.
CB: Ok. From Brize or Abingdon?
DD: Brize.
HD: Well, I I stayed in Abingdon.
CB: Yeah but you —
HD: Because I I didn’t want to move the boys.
DD: We had quarters in Abingdon but I was working at Brize.
CB: Yeah. After Abingdon. Ok. And so you’d done a total of how many years in the RAF?
DD: Was it four years during the war and twenty two?
CB: Afterwards.
DD: Second tour.
CB: So, they gave you an RAF pension for that.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Based on —
DD: That’s why, one of the reasons why I went in.
CB: Yeah. Based on which rank?
DD: Based on a sergeant. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
DD: They didn’t count the wartime because I was out longer. I was out too long. Although, when I was out I did join the Reserves and I was flying at Redhill. You know, just the little Ansons and Tiger Moths.
CB: Doing what?
DD: Nothing. I didn’t. I wasn’t, it wasn’t full time. I was part time.
CB: No. No. But what were you doing? You were flying the aeroplane, were you?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Piloting it.
DD: No. No. No. No.
CB: No.
DD: No. I did get to. I started learning to pilot. Yes. In fact, I flew from [pause] in a Tiger Moth from where was it now? Somewhere down, somewhere in Devon back to [pause] that was my only, not solo. I wasn’t solo. I had a pilot you know a chap who was with me.
CB: Yeah.
DD: He was teaching me though.
CB: How long were you in the Reserve? It was the RAF VR rather than VRT.
DD: Yeah. RAF VR.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Until I went out to Africa. And they wanted, actually they wanted me to come back.
CB: So, you left the RAF in ’81.
DD: Eighty. That was ’81 yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DD: And I didn’t have anything more to do with the air force then.
CB: No.
DD: That was the finish.
CB: Right. What did you do after then as a job?
DD: Oh. I got a job with a newspaper firm at Eynsham.
CB: Oh.
DD: That was it wasn’t it?
CB: What did you do then?
HD: Yeah.
DD: I was on security. Sort of — that’s all I did actually. There was two of us there.
CB: For how long?
DD: Was it — how many years?
HD: Not long. You weren’t there all that long. About three or four years.
DD: Oh, it was more than that.
HD: Was it?
DD: Yeah. It was about seven or eight years.
HD: Was it?
DD: Of course it was.
HD: I can’t remember.
DD: [unclear] went bankrupt and his brother took over. Went on there. Yeah. About eight years.
CB: And then?
DD: That was it. I retired.
CB: So, how was it that you went back up to Lincolnshire?
HD: Yeah. Well we bought the house from —
DD: We bought a house up there.
CB: You liked the air.
DD: Well, actually we got a council house in Abingdon.
HD: And we had this buy to, you know the buy —
Other: Right to buy.
HD: Yeah.
Others: Yeah.
DD: So I bought that one and with the proceeds of that I bought the house up in Mablethorpe. That was it until the family wanted us. Wanted us back here.
HD: You took ill didn’t you? And he couldn’t — I couldn’t, I had no support up there.
CB: No.
HD: So my family was still in Abingdon. So we came back down here didn’t we?
DD: Yeah.
HD: They wanted us back down here. So, although we got quite a bit, we did make some money from the house didn’t we?
DD: Quite a bit.
HD: But it wasn’t enough to buy down here so we had to go back into council again. I mean so we put the money in. We put the money away.
DD: If you wanted we could buy this one.
HD: Oh, we could now but we’re not going to bother.
DD: No.
HD: And so we’re quite reasonably off you know.
CB: Yeah.
HD: We’re not wealthy but —
CB: Comfortable.
HD: We’re comfortable.
CB: Comfortable.
HD: Yeah.
DD: At least we can leave the children something.
CB: Yes.
DD: See, if we’d bought another house it would have meant selling it again and all that sort of business.
HD: Yeah. We didn’t want to go through all that.
DD: Whereas we can leave them quite a good amount. So they’ll be set for life then.
HD: And they don’t have the bother of, you know with us.
CB: Yeah.
HD: They can hand it straight back. So that’s our life. Let’s hear yours now.
CB: Very interesting. Thank you.
[recording paused]
DD: Searchlight business.
CB: Yeah. Could you just go back to the blue searchlight? I’ll do it because of the, because of the searchlights they used blue lights. What was the significance of that?
DD: That was the master searchlight. That was going more or less all the time. Waving around but being controlled from the ground.
CB: By radar.
DD: By radar.
CB: Right.
DD: And when they picked up an aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That would show up somehow. You know. We didn’t know too much about it but then the searchlights around it they were, you know. I don’t know how many there were around it. It would come up the beam to catch that plane. But we were — my pilot was crafty. He would [unclear] he went through it.
CB: Straight down.
DD: Straight down. We never got caught again.
CB: So did he give a, make a call before he dived so deeply?
DD: No. He didn’t say a word. He just [unclear] Just like that. We were hitting the roof. Oh God. Peter will tell you that. He has a vivid remembrance of that.
CB: So this wasn’t designed as a joke. It was because he needed to take action quickly.
DD: No. It wasn’t. No joke. No. His reaction was amazing.
CB: So, what you’re saying are you is that when the blue light illuminated your aircraft it was necessary — how quickly did you need to respond to that?
DD: Well, you waited until the searchlight started coming up. They went up, you know. Shining through the blue light.
CB: Yeah.
DD: To try and catch you.
CB: Oh, I see.
DD: So if you went [unclear] you did that you could bypass it. That was at the beginning. I don’t know whether it worked later. But it was a standing joke in the squadron about that. I think other aircraft, other aircraft behind us, you know must have seen it and possibly they did the same. Some of them. I don’t know. But we were one of the first to hit the [laughs]
Other: What sort of angle of descent was it?
DD: Pardon?
Other: I mean you said [unclear] straight down.
DD: Well, as far as I know it was straight down.
Other: Oh really.
DD: And then he gradually brought it out of the dive and we ended up about two hundred feet from the ground.
Other: Oh.
CB: Oh you went as far as that.
DD: Oh yeah. Right down to the ground.
CB: Right.
DD: And then we skimmed all the way back to the coast.
CB: Oh. This is after dropping the bombs.
DD: After dropping. Yeah.
CB: Yes.
DD: After dropping the bombs. Yes.
CB: Did you get coned by a blue light before the target?
DD: No. No. We were once or twice in ordinary searchlights but we got out of them. But that blue. That was a nasty bit of work. It caught a lot of people.
CB: Now, when, just going back to the bombing run, the bombing run is a sequence of lining up then dropping the bombs. Bombs gone. But then a photograph had to be taken. So —
DD: Yeah.
CB: How did you feel about that delay? Before you —
DD: It was accepted.
CB: Yeah.
DD: We couldn’t do anything about it. You had to have proof.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Because if you didn’t have that proof they wouldn’t allow you to take it as an op.
CB: Right.
DD: It wouldn’t be counted. So everyone had to do that really.
CB: So what was the delay? Assuming you were flying at eighteen, twenty thousand. What was the delay?
DD: The delay was around about [pause] Oh I would say about, depending on the height actually it wasn’t long because a Cookie went down very quickly.
CB: That’s the four thousand pounder.
DD: Yeah. Four thousand pounder. To be quite honest I couldn’t, I couldn’t tell you. It’s under half a minute.
CB: Yeah.
DD: It wouldn’t be more. Around about that.
CB: So, the key is that you’re trying to capture the explosion of the bombs on impact.
DD: Once it went off then you were —
CB: Yeah.
DD: You could go. But it wasn’t — sometimes it was alright. Other times you know you were a little bit worried about it.
CB: The sequence was though was it that the bombs went.
DD: Bombs went.
CB: Then, then the flash went.
DD: Then the flash—
CB: Down.
DD: The flash went at the end of the bombs.
CB: Right.
DD: Bombs. And it took about a half a minute I suppose.
CB: Ok.
DD: Somewhere in that region. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t swear to it but it was somewhere in that region.
CB: In your time on operations or perhaps any other time but what was your most terrifying experience?
[pause]
DD: I think it was that blue. Blue light. Blue searchlight. Because that was really frightening. Where you just, you were sitting there, you know going along normally and the next thing you knew you were up there [laughs] and looking down. Looking down at people. And it was amazing. Well, Peter was the opposite way around. He was looking up. Didn’t know where he was.
CB: No.
DD: But I think that’s about the most frightening thing.
CB: What was the most pleasant memory that you had about being in the RAF?
DD: Most pleasant.
CB: Was it during the war? Or afterwards perhaps.
DD: It was after the war. Finningley held an airshow and of course the Lanc was a sort of a main thing there. There were other aircraft but the Lanc was a bit of the — but they did a four-engined over shoot. Three-engined. Two. And we were supposed to do a one-engined. Yeah. Mind you that’s alright and the Lanc would fly on one. You know, if you were high. Mind you were dropping all the time down.
CB: Dropping down all the time. Yeah.
DD: Yeah. But they were going to do this over the runway and I was in that with the wing commander. And when he said, ‘I’m not going to do the one,’ [laughs] that was the most pleasant. Because had you, I was worried about that.
CB: A sigh of relief.
DD: Aye. I think that was the thing that really stuck in my mind. We did, you know the two engine. That was alright. No problems. But when he said one. Do you know I was really chuffed.
CB: The final thing is we didn’t really talk about after the war and keeping in contact with the crew. Now, your rear gunner is the one, Peter Smith is the one you’ve kept in contact with.
DD: Yeah.
CB: What about the others? Did it fall away or did you never have?
DD: It faded away actually. I met my pilot in 2002 because he came over here. Oh it was great seeing him again. But the others —
HD: Peter.
DD: Oh Code. You know the warrant officer. Warren. Warren Code. He died. Passed on. And also the bomb aimer. So those three you [pause] those three you know we had no contact with but Peter went over to America, to an aircrew meeting of some sort. I can’t — he’ll tell you that anyway. He’ll give you all the info. He met up with most of the crew there.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Except the English ones. He met up with the two Canadians.
CB: Yeah. I meant that there was no link with the British side.
DD: No.
CB: Other than Peter.
DD: No. We lost track completely.
CB: Yeah.
DD: I think that happened a lot of cases actually.
CB: It did.
DD: In the end. I think in a way you were glad you were finished with the air force in a way.
CB: What was people’s attitude at the end?
DD: Oh. Not very good. Aircrew were looked down on.
CB: Were they?
DD: Yeah.
CB: By whom?
DD: The populace.
CB: What, what started that do you think?
DD: Well, it more or less started about the bombing of towns. That was mainly their idea. They didn’t like that idea. We shouldn’t have done that. It should have been military targets all the time. But that couldn’t happen in the war. But aircrew were looked down upon.
CB: Were they?
DD: Yeah. And some of them had quite a rough time.
CB: Did they really?
DD: Yeah. Churchill ignored us.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Bomber Harris was kicked out. Went to south Africa. Yeah. He felt it too.
CB: I’m going to stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: One thing we didn’t ask, David was you were trained as a wireless operator which was a real skill and after the war you might well have followed that up as a, in relevant areas. Why didn’t you use your new skill there?
DD: Well, there were too, there were too many things going on in my mind at that time. Going back to Africa and how to get there. I didn’t want to tie myself down. I had to be free to be able to go at a, you know, quickly.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That was the main reason. I wasn’t really keen on being a wireless operator actually. I would have preferred being a gunner. I would. Because that’s what I volunteered to do. But they said no. Wireless operator/air gunner. So that was that. I was really forced into that. As I say I wanted to be a gunner.
CB: Yes.
DD: I’d have enjoyed that more.
CB: You weren’t alone with that requirement but what, what was it that attracted you most to the thought of being an air gunner?
DD: I think it was my grandmother who did this actually. During the First World War she had a lot to do with RAF sea people. And in fact one of them, what was his name? Ball, I think. Used to be a visitor to my — he shot down one of the zepps. And she was always telling me stories, you know. They told her. And it as a youngster I grew up on that. And I always fancied the idea of flying anyway. So when the war came along you know that’s the first thing I thought of.
CB: You felt you wanted to give it to them directly.
DD: More or less. Yes. Yes. Because whilst I was in London we had a, I’ll have to tell you this. My grandmother owned a very old Victorian house. You know, one of these three storey high things but it was attached to the next part. You know. It was split into two houses. And one particular night the bombing raids were on and I was always shoved down under the stairs. You know, by the gas meter and always the smell of gas. Horrible. Anyway, there was a lull and I wanted to go to the toilet. So I went upstairs to the first floor. Went to the toilet. Whilst I was sitting there a aircraft came over and dropped a bomb which landed just the other side of the next house. Cracked the pan. I ended up on the floor [laughs] That’s what happened to me.
CB: A bit of a mess then?
DD: It was a bit of a mess [laughs] I hated the Germans after that.
CB: Of course. Who wouldn’t?
Other: Disturbing the dethronement seems to the height of ignorance.
DD: It was terrible that. I was frightened actually.
CB: So, in the bombing in general because you were there before you joined the RAF what was your feeling about what was going on?
DD: Well, I hadn’t really formed any thoughts but I thought then if they can do that to us we can do that to them. That was my idea really, I suppose. In a way. Knowing that people in you know in London had died as they had I suppose I wanted to retaliate. You know kids ideas are a bit different to what you think nowadays obviously. But I’ve never really thought about it but that’s, that’s I suppose that’s the way I thought.
CB: To what extent did you have contact with people who had been in the raids? On the receiving end.
DD: Well, in our street, or in my grandmother’s street there were about five or six houses that had been bombed. People we knew had died. I suppose that was in the back of my mind as well. You know a lot of things went on when you were a youngster. Especially in raids. Yeah.
CB: What was the general public attitude during the raids?
DD: People who were in houses, I think they were a bit frightened you know. Well obviously. But people who managed to get shelters, you know like the underground I think they didn’t think so much about it. But then there was that case of one shelter being bombed wasn’t there? That was terrible.
CB: Cannon street. Yes.
DD: Cannon street. Yeah.
CB: So, did you grandmother have a shelter in her garden?
DD: No. Not in the garden. No. She had one of these things that went under the table.
CB: Right.
DD: It was sort of a box about this high. You had to lie down to get in to it. But she had that. Because she was then about eighty something. She couldn’t have gone outside because most of them got water in them and no, she couldn’t have. She couldn’t have done that. But actually I put myself in. I went in there one night to try it. I didn’t like it. It was claustrophobic. Very claustrophobic. Because, you know it was so low really when you come to think of it. And you’d got all this wire. Wire netting around it and then the heavy iron on top and below you. They weren’t nice things.
CB: They were designed simply to avoid being crushed.
DD: Yes. More or less. Yeah. Or being caught in masonry.
CB: Yeah. That’s what I —
DD: At least it gave you some leeway. Give you some air.
CB: Yes.
DD: The idea was good. But I wouldn’t have fancied it. Staying in one. Even though there was the gas in that under stairs. I hate the smell of gas. Although gas in those days seemed to be much stronger than it is nowadays.
CB: Well, it’s a different type of gas isn’t it?
DD: Yeah. It was —
CB: One other point about aircrew is you were in the, of the, based on the time, well fed.
DD: Oh we were. Yes. Very well fed.
CB: So, what was the food generally?
DD: Well, it was more or less not, we didn’t have fancy food. It was straightforward nutritious food.
CB: Before an operation what did you get then?
DD: Oh eggs and bacon [laughs] and when we came back as well. In fact you got more or less egg bound the number of eggs you got. But everyone else only had, they would have one a week or something like that. I think my grandmother had one. One a week.
CB: The civilian population had one a week.
DD: One a week.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Something like that. I don’t think it was more than that. But we used to get cheese. And we used to get milk. Aircrew used to get a pint of milk a day and you used to go into the mess and go to the bar and say, ‘I’ll have my milk.’ You’d have that one then, one sort of lunchtime. One in the evening. Of course, when you went on trips, on ops rather, you would get your chocolate, Horlicks tablets, wakey wakey pills and some fruity sweets. Every time. And I never used to eat many of them at the time. I’d probably take them back and give it to people.
CB: And, right and what did you drink? Coffee or tea? Or what was it?
DD: It’s wasn’t a lot of, there was some coffee. You generally got that at the debriefing.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Coffee. It was generally tea you drank.
CB: In a flask was it? [pause] Because it was pretty cold up there.
DD: No. I didn’t get a flask. Do you know I can’t remember what we did there. We did have a drink but I can’t remember what it was now. It might have been coffee. To keep you awake. Because those wakey wakey pills you wouldn’t take them until you were getting near the actual target.
CB: Right.
DD: You’d take one then. And that would get you through the target and then one on the way back.
CB: Because the trips were how many hours?
DD: Oh it was varied. I think the longest we did was coming up to eleven hours. Ten and a half. Eleven. That was the longest.
CB: Where was that to?
DD: Now, where was that now? Oh God. Down the east. The east part of Germany. Where the hell was it now? Do you know I can’t, I can’t remember the name.
CB: But on the Baltic coast area.
DD: More or less up nearly up to there. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Stettin or — you didn’t do Peenemunde.
DD: No.
CB: It’s a pity your logbook was stolen isn’t it?
DD: I know.
CB: Because that’s an absolute travesty.
DD: I’ve been upset all my life over that because it was all written out nicely and signed by you know wing commanders, group captains. We had all sorts of people signing them. I’ve always regretted that. But you’ll be able to get an idea when, if you go and see Peter.
CB: Yes.
[recording paused]
DD: Well, one night when we bombed we didn’t lose the Cookie.
CB: It didn’t go.
DD: It didn’t go.
CB: So the Cookie was the big four thousand pounder.
DD: Yeah. The bomb. We were flying. Now, where was that? We were flying — not Nuremberg. Next one up there. Coming back from that district and we were flying north of Switzerland. The bomb aimer had to, you know come back.
CB: Stuttgart was it?
DD: It could have been Stuttgart. It think it might have been. Yeah. He had to release the bomb but when that bomb hit the ground there was the most massive explosion. We never knew what it was.
CB: It had hit something.
DD: It hit something.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Of course, there was no photoflash or anything but yeah it was interesting that. We never did find out what was, what it was.
CB: No. Now, did you ever return to Germany after the war?
DD: No. I didn’t go back.
CB: And did you go on any Cooks Tours that they ran after the war?
DD: No.
CB: To see the bombing.
DD: Oh, now on the, with the Lancs.
CB: Yeah.
DD: We took ground staff across to show them. Flew around France and Germany.
CB: From the —
DD: From the place up north [laughs – pause] I’ve forgotten the name again.
CB: But when you [pause] what Granston?
DD: No. No. No. Not Gamston.
CB: Gamston I meant to say.
DD: Finningley.
CB: Oh Finningley.
DD: From Finningley. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DD: We took —
CB: In Lancasters.
DD: Two or three trips we did actually across there.
CB: So, what, who were the people you were taking on the trips?
DD: Ground staff.
CB: Your own crews.
DD: Well, no we didn’t have our own crews then.
CB: No.
DD: That was only on the —
CB: So, they were, what sort of people were they?
DD: Well, anyone.
CB: Anybody on the airfield who was interested.
DD: Anyone on the airfield who wanted to go.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Really. More or less.
CB: And when you got over you would fly at a higher level would you and then well you —
DD: Well, normally. Yes. Come down.
CB: And then ten thousand. Then come down.
DD: If we were flying over the Ruhr we’d come down fairly low and let them see.
CB: Yes.
DD: Especially Cologne.
CB: Yes. What height would you fly over there?
DD: Oh, a couple of thousand feet.
CB: Oh, I see.
DD: Right down.
CB: So people could see.
DD: Oh yeah.
CB: And what was their reaction to that?
DD: A bit aghast. You know, they wouldn’t say very much. Probably they did say something when they got back on the ground.
CB: Yes.
DD: But you couldn’t talk very much.
CB: No.
DD: When you were up there. But I think they were a little bit shocked.
Other: At the devastation.
DD: Yeah. And that’s one of the reasons why I think aircrew were looked down on after the war. Not looked down on but, you know, ‘You bombed civilians,’ and that sort of business. But I heard one person say that. Which wasn’t very nice.
CB: And of course the factories were in amongst the civilian population.
DD: Of course they were. Yeah.
CB: Because people didn’t commute.
DD: They didn’t realise that.
CB: No.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with David Kenneth McKenzie Dall
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADallDKM161122, PDallDKM1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:30:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
David Dall spent his early life in South Africa. He moved to the UK as a child to live with his grandmother and continue his education. He was enthralled by the stories his grandmother told him about the Royal Flying Corps during the First World War and so when it came time to volunteer it was obvious where he would apply to the RAF. He had wanted to train as a gunner but was posted for training as a wireless operator/air gunner. He was posted to 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
fear
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Hullavington
RAF Ludford Magna
searchlight
shelter
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/792/10773/ADavisAW180116.2.mp3
6f54de70999539d29257311a60350c69
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davis, Alan William
A W Davis
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alan William Davis (1922 - 2021, 425834 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-16
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Davis, AW
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GT: This is Tuesday the 16th of January 2018, and I am at the home of Alan William Davis, born 25 July 1922, in Rangiora, New Zealand, RNZAF wireless operator/air gunner, NZ 425834, Warrant Officer, near Amberley, Christchurch, in New Zealand. Alan joined the RNZAF in 1942. He trained in Canada and joined 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mepal, in March 1945. He completed nine operations, three Manna drops, three Exodus and several Baedeker trips, then moving to Spilsby in July for Tiger Force training. Alan returned after war’s cessation and, to New Zealand, in December of 1945. Alan thank you for welcoming me into your home. Can you give me a little bit of your memories of why you wanted to join the Air Force and where you did your training?
AD: Well mainly I think I had the choice of either the Army or the Air Force, I decided to go in the Air Force, but I also did three months in the Army, beforehand.
GT: Where did you join up and where did you do your training in New Zealand?
AD: Went up to Ohakea for a start, in the Air Force Defence Unit, and then we went to Rotorua, to learn wireless, Morse Code and so forth. Then unfortunately I had to have my tonsils out and I didn’t go with the group that I was supposed to, to Canada, I didn’t go till three months later. So I only ever saw one of the original group I was with, in England.
GT: Whereabouts did you do your training in Canada?
AD: Calgary and then we went to Mossbank, for gunnery.
GT: So you did a mixture of the wireless operator and gunnery training, and effectively you -
AD: Yes. The Bolingbrokes and such like.
GT: Became a wireless operator. What was the Bolingbroke like?
AD: Oh, they weren’t bad, course everything was covered in snow then. It was quite interesting, I was quite good at shooting.
GT: Excellent. Did you get excellent?
AD: Well I come third out of about four hundred with competition with all different weapons, machine guns and revolvers and some others.
GT: And then once you’d completed your training, you sailed across the Atlantic to England. Eventful? Did you, any German submarines around?
AD: No, the boat went on its own, it wasn’t in a convoy and I was on the rocket guns. What I was supposed to do I don’t know, [chuckle] but they got me on those and we arrived. It was Isle de France, the boat we went on. Don’t know what happened to it later on, I think it burnt, caught fire in the harbour somewhere.
GT: And that was a luxurious cruise ship, wasn’t it. When you arrived in England they put you on to training units and you crewed up, that was -
AD: No, they didn’t, we went down to Brighton, and was there for a while and then they shipped us up to the North East coast of England, I can’t just remember the place, because D-Day was, getting ready for that. When we come back, everyone, and we crewed up and went to Westcott and Oakley and Bottesford for conversion.
GT: Yep. Your log book here has you at 11 OTU in the July and August, September of 1944. Can you remember when you crewed up? How did you meet up with your skipper and your other?
AD: Oh, we were just lining up there and the captain was sort of, the skipper was more or less picking the chaps he wanted. We had about one, two, three, four; started from the original one, the other three, the flight engineer, the bomb aimer - we were a bit hard on bomb aimers - ended up four of ‘em, and the mid upper gunner, he was changed.
GT: I see you did all your training on Wellington aircraft here, and your final tally and summary at Oakley, Westcott and 11 OTU all together, a total of eighty seven hours there. So from there you moved on to your Heavy Conversion Unit, so can you tell us a little bit about your movement to Lancasters from there?
AD: Yes. The first time we went up in Lancaster with the instructor, I looked out the left hand side and I saw two engines stopped. I looked out the other side and there was another one stopped: was flying on one engine! Saying don’t be worried, it was, still fly on one engine! Bit nervous for a start. [Chuckle]
GT: The pilot was stopping an engine for?
AD: Yes, just more or less showing our pilot that the plane was quite safe on one engine.
GT: And that was at Bottesford, 1668 HCW, HCU RAF Bottesford. And you were there from the beginning of December ’44 until the end of February ’45.
AD: Yeah. About six weeks longer than we should have been because bomb aimer trouble, one didn’t return.
GT: He went away on leave and didn’t come back.
AD: No. Waited round for weeks, they gave us a chap who’d already done a tour and he absolutely had the DT’s. He was shaking and hard to understand so after a while they took him off, gave us another one, he was quite good and then he got wounded on our fifth bombing trip, had to replace him.
GT: Gosh. From your HCU did you have a choice of where you were going to go? What squadron?
AD: No, they just, I can’t remember, I think we just went to 75.
GT: And your first flight, and first indeed operation, was on the 6th of March,1945.
AD: Wing Commander [indecipherable].
GT: Wing Commander [indecipherable] was your skipper, as wireless op, you finished and did there all the trips as a wireless op I see. So your first war op was the oil refineries at Salzbergen. Any trips of yours eventful were they?
AD: Yes. The fifth one where the bomb aimer was wounded, we lost, we had a bit of problems with the engine, wouldn’t hold, the inside left engine wouldn’t hold its revs. We went to briefing and the flight engineer said we’d take the, the engineer in charge or something said we’d take the spare aircraft. And when they finished briefing they said well they changed all the plugs on the original plane on the offending engine, so we took it. After we got over the English Channel a bit it started to misbehave, I thought was going to jump off the wing it was jumping around that much. Was misfiring so we had to feather it and then we had a discussion amongst the crew whether we’d drop our bombs and go back home or carry on, so we all agreed to carry on, but of course had to find our own way to the target, cause we couldn’t keep up with the others.
GT: It was successful in the end?
AD: [Indecipherable] Of course we got shot up, we saw three of our own planes shot down, we didn’t realise they were our squadron, till after we got home. One of the crews shared our hut. Some of them parachuted, pilot and the flight engineer they were down, watched it go all the way. Wasn’t on fire, it wasn’t smoking, it was just going like that, all the way down.
GT: Weaving from side to side.
AD: Went down. Splash of flame. Counted them as they jumped, there was five of them got out. There was one of them got there ready to jump and realised he had his parachute.
GT: What was the normal procedure if the crew was lost or missing? Did someone come in and collect all their belongings?
AD: Yes, it happened to us twice. The other crew, they crashed in training at Bottesford, and we heard them talking on the intercom, you know, like the what’you call it? The?
GT: Control tower?
AD: Control Tower, yeah. Evidently he wasn’t, the pilot wasn’t too good at night vision; he was trying to land too high. They told him to go round again. We got in and landed and were standing out on the runway waiting for the truck, saw this, saw this great flash of flame about three mile away, then the boom! When we got back to our hut the service police were there getting all their belongings.
GT: Just a training flight, too. So you completed nine war ops in total. Was any one of them outstanding in your mind?
AD: Just that one where we got shot up.
GT: What were you shot up by?
AD: Anti aircraft. Crack! Crack! Boy!
GT: You remember it.
AD: I remember it, getting closer and closer, you could hear them. When we went there we didn’t think we’d get through there were that many puffs of smoke about our height, there’d be be an odd one or two, all wee bit higher and off a bit, but boy, they were, they were thick.
GT: So you also carried out, and were part of, Operation Manna and were you briefed on what that was all about and what was to happen when you got there?
AD: The food dropping? We probably were but I can’t remember anything about it, really. Just except the flying there.
GT: And you were told that the Germans wouldn’t be shooting at you at all?
AD: Well, you don’t want take any risk, we’re supposed to come in at certain heights and get out soon as we dropped it, no buggering around, but we went down to Italy, I’ll tell you about that. Lucky we’re here!
GT: Oh well tell us about this trip, the trip to Italy, which one was that?
AD: [Laugh] No. That was after the war!
GT: Okay, so the Operation Manna stuff, you were told later on that it was to save the starving Dutch people.
AD Yes, we probably knew from the beginning, yes. Of course a lot of the country was flooded: the Germans opened the dykes and that. We’d see these dykes going along and just dirty water covering all over, see people walking along the banks.
GT: You predominantly did day sorties and I see you did one night.
AD: We did a pre run of it.
GT: What was the difference for you? As a wireless operator, no difference between day and night, did it matter?
AD: Well night was a bit creepy, see a few things going past your window. Night time, cause day time have a good look.
GT: Time to get out the way. Did you have any aircraft above you, that could have dropped a bomb through you or anything?
AD: No, the strange thing about those two planes just out from us, cause what happened, the, when we couldn’t keep up with the squadron, we just went, because DH bombing we just went straight to the target and evidently the others, they were a bit ahead of their time, so they did a dog leg and they come in like that, we were here and couldn’t actually see their letters, see what was going on, one just dropped his bombs, beautiful line! How the hell he got them in line, you know, just the little one, big cookie on top, and the next thing they disappeared and the plane just completely blew to pieces, just like confetti. And then just a short while afterwards, another one, the engine dropped out of. The engineer was [indecipherable] I remember calling out the rest of them and saying the propeller was still going round, suppose they hadn’t used up the fuel yet, then the wing come off and down he went, and then shortly afterwards that other one started going like that and they were jumping out of it.
GT: And you said they were all 75 Squadron.
AD: Yeah. Three of them. That book I’ve got there shows that the planes above dropped [indecipherable] there dropped the bombs must of went off when got hit by a shell or what, cause bombs, they’ll explode just dropped out of a bomb bay on the ground! Real disaster one place there, three people, blew the plane to pieces and about nine others were destroyed.
GT: Was this at Mepal?
AD: No, no another aerodrome.
GT: You’d been told about it?
AD: No, read about it recent.
GT: It certainly happened. Now, you also managed to do some prisoner repatriation.
AD: Yes, we did four of those.
GT: Guys were pretty pleased to see you, weren’t they.
AD: Yeah, Juvencourt I thought, I actually bought a map in Paris when we were there this last time, so I could find out where Juvencourt was, I just thought it was not far inland, but it’s quite a far way, but I can’t find the map.
GT: Short way by aircraft, isn’t it. Just a point of note, the supply dropping sorties, your aircraft did, your crew did: one was Rotterdam and two was The Hague. And then from there you did a mixture of Juvencourt to Tangmere, and also the Baedekers, the post mortems, and that bit of Army co-op bit of variation. What was the Baedekers about?
AD: Oh, they used to go up the Ruhr valley, take the Air Ministry staff and that, most of them looked out the window to start then a bit seasick [chuckle] and then flight engineer used to carry a tin, treacle tin and he called it the tin-rin-tin-shitin. Remember, I don’t know whether you remember just about the wartime there was a thing on the radio about Rintin this wonder dog, that’s how he got the name and he was busy passing that between the different people. [laugh]
GT: Crazy, well your last time on 75 New Zealand Squadron was pretty much the end of July. Your total hours by day were over twenty two hours there, so you did a fair bit towards the end there, especially when there were so many crews vying for flying wasn’t there, must have had so many there, and obviously the war in Europe had finished so you were then shifted to Spilsby.
AD: Well we had to volunteer, an all New Zealand Squadron.
GT: British, Australians and Canadians left.
AD: Yep. Mac MacDonald, Flight Lieutenant.
GT: So you volunteered for that; you were asked directly?
AD: Yes, volunteered for it.
GT: Okay, so your first flight, Lancaster-wise, from Spilsby, 3rd of August, mixture of cross country and formation flying and you also managed a couple of flights here, three at least, in the new Lincolns, the white Lincolns, 75 New Zealand Squadron had three delivered to them by the time VJ Day came around so, they were taking them out to the Asian theatre. What was the Lincolns like compared to the Lancasters?
AD: Well, it was quite longer wingspan, wings, when it was flying about like that, when it was [indecipherable] it was the Lancaster that stayed [indecipherable].
GT: Was the wireless equipment upgraded for the Lincoln?
AD: Nah, I think it was much the same.
GT: Didn’t affect you much between the two types of aircraft.
AD: I think we were the last ones to fly, 75 Squadron in England. [Indecipherable] and us, we went down to farewell the Troop ship.
GT: The Andes?
AD: Andes. Actually it’s in one of those things there: we’re the bottom one.
GT: You’re the second plane in that picture?
AD: If I hadn’t have gone with our crew I would have gone with [indecipherable] because he asked me to be his wireless operator, but unfortunately we went to Berlin and the same thing happened: our crews went. So I went with our crew.
GT: So that was your last flight was 23rd September 1945 in the Lincoln, and it was AA-A, based Southampton, that was for the Andes overflight. But I see further up here just before that, on the 19th of September you talked about the base to Bari in Italy trip.
AD: Nearly ended up in disaster!
GT: So what was that about?
AD: Well, we saw this [indecipherable] farmer ploughing with two horses, so dived on them, I can see the old farmer now, shaking his fist, and he was hanging on to the reins, and the horses went faster and faster and finally they bolted. He went along low flying in the countryside, big high tension lines there and he was having a discussion with the flight engineer and he saying well we’ll go over these or will we go under and last moment he pulled up and hit one of the wires. Didn’t believe us for a start, I saw it, cause I saw the inflight and the rear gunner said yes, you’ve cut them. But, so then they started wondering what the hell they were going to tell the engineering staff because the propeller would have a mark on it. Sure enough, when we landed there was quite a gouge out of one propeller blade it the long bit. Lucky it wasn’t the big heavy cables, was the lighter ones we hit.
GT: Brought you down.
AD: It would have brought us down.
GT: Well, so that pretty much is, was the end of your flying of World War Two there.
AD: I think that was the last flight of 75 Squadron in England.
GT: It would have been.
AD: Almost certain it was.
GT: 23rd of September 1945.
AD: We left the next day I think. We broke up the next day or something.
GT: You left everything sitting at Spilsby.
AD: Pardon?
GT: Left all the aircraft sitting around at Spilsby.
AD: Yes, well, shame, specially all those herring gutted Lancasters they used to carry those twenty two thousand pound bombs. One place, I think it was Spilsby, there was quite a few of them there.
GT: Grand Slams.
AD: Yeah. All they were real odd looking cause they had no bomb doors, they just sort of come up and went along and down.
GT: You guys weren’t flying those.
AD: No.
GT: They were just sitting there.
AD: Yep.
GT: 100 Squadron, 207 Squadron were flying from there. The Spilsby Monument, Memorial, has a mention of an armament crew that were blown up at the bomb dump there. Did that happen when you were there? But, so how did you get back to New Zealand then if the Andes had already gone? Did they put you on another ship?
AD: Yeah, Montcalm, there’s a photo down the bedroom of it. It did a sort of odd course, it brought quite a few British soldiers out to Suez and then it went back to Taranto in Italy, I thought it unloaded them there, or did something, pick some others up and then come back to Suez and then went through the canal, you know, picked up quite a few New Zealand soldiers on the other side.
GT: And when you got back to New Zealand did you demob straight away or you on the Reserve?
AD: Yes, we just went off, well I went on leave. Reserve for several years.
GT: You weren’t called up then?
AD: No, didn’t get called up.
GT: And you’ve been a farmer all your life, is that right?
AD: Actually I declined any assistance and filled in the form on the ship there, and then one of my, brother-in-law said you bloody fool fella, so I applied and I went to about four or five farms and finally found this place.
GT: How many acres did you have in the end?
AD: Five, it was five hundred and forty five. Another chap on, he went away on the ship and came back on the same ship as I did, Harry Denton, I didn’t know him then, he got the other half.
GT: So how many sheep and cattle were you grazing on a that kind of size?
AD: Oh, I had over a thousand sheep. I had up to two and a half thousand at one stage and then we had quite a lot of cattle and calves. Interesting reading through my old diaries, see I used to keep diaries.
GT: How old will you be next birthday?
AD: I’ll be ninety six.
GT: Ninety six, ninety seven, ninety six?
AD: Or more, I don’t know, it’s a bugger since my legs have started going on me, I started wearing that, up there, oh there, that riding helmet, save my head a bit [indecipherable] you feel a bit of a flash sometimes, just lasts a moment or two.
GT: So at your grand age now, you’re still mucking about on the farm and here we are in Amberley, New Zealand in mid January and the temperatures are rising to close to thirty degrees Celsius, which is pretty wicked here this time of year in New Zealand.
AD: Yes, I know.
GT: Alan, it’s a pleasure again catching up with you and thanks very much for talking to me and this will, an interview going to the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives and you’re certainly a part of Bomber Command and you having completed operations, Baedekers, Mannas and Exoduses, you did the whole bunch really, that was pretty awesome.
AD: I had quite a good career, lucky with, we did crash a Wellington, went off the runway into a ditch, petrol running everywhere and got out at t a hell of ate and I got into trouble because I didn’t grab the secret code books, well I couldn’t see, was pitch dark and the poor erk that was riding a bike round the perimeter, he was the only person I’ve ever seen who was incoherent, he was babbling away and couldn’t hear a word, didn’t know what he was saying, we damn near run over him! [Laughter] Poor Bugger! Horse galloping round in the paddock next to him.
GT: No regrets, you served your King and your country and you were happy in the end to, with your achievements.
AD: I had a great experience. I’ve been back and visited two of the crew; last time I went back I couldn’t find any of them, rear gunner, Scott, and the navigator. Harry Denton, up here, when he was up here, with some of his crew; I think one of his crew got the VC! And also the, some of the Germans that shot him down, they come out here too and visit him. I’m not too sure whether I met them or not. I met some of the, his crew. Come out here twice I think.
GT: You’re former enemies and you’ve become friends, and that’s the case through most of time.
AD: I’ve been to Germany and had a look at the, some of the wartime graves there. Actually the chap who was supposed to inherit this farm, Lawrence Croft, he was in the Air Force too. I think he got blown out of the bomb aimer’s, I think it was him. I think also one of the wife’s cousins, Albert Chipping, I think he got blown out too.
GT: That was the thing, many of these folk came back to New Zealand and went straight back into working and many of the folk that were still here didn’t know anything of what you guys went through. Did you find that a big problem?
AD: Not really, no.
GT: The folk that you dealt with, worked with.
AD: I suppose it was still a job we had to do. Used to go down at night, have our pints.
GT: What were the, sorry, I meant to ask, what were the pubs around Mepal that you liked?
AD: Oh yeah. We stopped at one there.
GT: Chequers?
AD: Oh Chequers, we used to go to that one, Sutton, and then there used to be, one old Percy had it, at Haddenham, cause there was Haddenham up here, then Sutton here and Mepal over here and there was there used to be a road connecting them, course they closed it when the aerodrome, when the runway went across it.
GT: And you had Witchford.
AD: Quite a bit different now, bit hard to find the landmarks.
GT: Well Mepal Gardens have a Memorial for 75 New Zealand Squadron there.
AD: Yeah, they shifted it from where they actually put it, when, in 1978 when they dedicated it, shifted to another.
GT: Well cared for little garden, that’s for sure.
AD: Pardon?
GT: It’s a well cared for little garden. And 75 Squadron Association in the UK, friends, they hold a reunion twice a year right there, so all your colleagues are well remembered. Okay Alan, let’s sign off. I thank you very much for your interview, your thoughts, your memories and thank you for your service for your King and your country, and your sacrifice. Thank you very much.
AD: One of the lucky ones and it was an experience.
GT: Definitely lucky. Thank you, Alan.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alan William Davis
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavisAW180116
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:31:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Davis joined the RNZAF towards the end of the war, training in Canada as a wireless operator and air gunner. He returned to the UK and after conversion to Lancasters was posted to 75 New Zealand Squadron. Alan tells of his training, crew changes and loss of colleagues as well as different operation and experiences. After the war he returned home and settled as a farmer, sometimes returning overseas and seeing old friends.
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
France
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Île-de-France
France--Reims Region
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
11 OTU
1668 HCU
75 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bottesford
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakley
RAF Spilsby
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/807/10788/PDunbarR1801.2.jpg
c38f885fabde34a9f89d47e0ba505fc8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/807/10788/ADunbarR180624.1.mp3
d7cdd125daadfc734bce7f179423743d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dunbar, Reg
R Dunbar
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Reginald Dunbar DFM (b. 1921, 50747 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 37 and 100 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dunbar, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JB: This interview is being carried out for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jennifer Barraclough. The interviewee is Reginald Dunbar. The date is the 24th of June 2018 and we are at Mr Dunbar’s Apartment in Albany near Auckland. Ok. Thank you very much Mr Dunbar. Could you start by telling us a little about your early life and how you came to join up with the Air Force?
RD: Yes. Of course. It’s a pleasure. My name is Reginald Dunbar. I am a wing commander retired. I think I’d best start with when I was born. I was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland and moved across to Liverpool when I was six months old. I wouldn’t say that I was thrown out of Ireland but it felt like that [laughs] I attended a normal sort of school. Nothing particularly clever. Just normal schooling until I was seventeen and a half. But during that time I moved around a bit because my father was a baker on the White Star Line that used to go out to America and he stayed out there for a while at one stage to my mother’s rather disappointment. But however, I got a, I left school at fourteen and got a job in a shoe shop which was situated in Liverpool city. I persevered in that job until I was seventeen and a half and at that stage I was at the time a member of a church choir in Liverpool, namely, Emanuel Church. And while there I joined the Church Lad’s Brigade and although you may not heard of it, it was a sort of semi-military affair and they were issued with rifles of all things at the time which we marched off to church with at this, whatever the attention was. What it was called? Anyway, when I reached the age of seventeen and a half I was a bandsman in the Church Lad’s Brigade and used to sort of do a lot of work with my colleagues in the band doing, doing sort of training really for armaments which seemed strange for a church organisation. However, a colleague of mine named Norman King decided he would leave the Church Lad’s Brigade and join the Air Force. Now, he was six months older than me and he decided to leave and I followed him after, about six months after he’d left and left. And when I arrived at the recruiting office in Liverpool I asked if I could be a pilot and they checked on my background and said well, no. They thought something less [pause] less difficult than that and they suggested I join as a wireless operator with a six month training session. So, anyway I did that and left and joined up via a place called [pause] a place called, what was the name of the — ?
Other: [unclear]
RD: Where the R101 were based.
Other: Cardington.
RD: Cardington. That’s right. Cardington. And that’s where they had their recruiting set up and there was nothing in there apart from rows and rows of tables with plates on the table. Six plates on each table. This was for recruits and they had these sort of well, odd looking meals on board. They were sort of cow heels I think they were called. They were white, you know. Obviously the way they’d been cooked. However, sufficient to say at the end of a meal we found that the bins outside the buildings were full of these cow heels [laughs] Nobody had touched them. Anyway, we went from there to our training unit and my unit was, training unit for training was Yatesbury. Yatesbury was down in [pause] where was Yatesbury? Down in the south of England anyway. And I always remember the place because it was hilly around there and they had on the hills these white horses printed you know, and I used to spend a lot of my spare time sitting up on the hill enjoying life. You know, when I didn’t have to be doing any training. I seemed to be sort of by myself a lot. I didn’t make a lot of friends there to be quite truthful. I was by myself most of the time. I met a lot of people that lived local and they seemed to take a lot of care. They’d invite me out for meals and things you know when they saw me in uniform sitting doing nothing there. However, it was quite a comprehensive training they gave you including of course the Morse Code, everything and taught you all about training. And I had a good six months training and when I’d finished I was posted to a place. Where was it? I think it was over in Lincoln as a, on ground, ground equipment. Actually, I was posted to train on teleprinters. They’re the things like a printer, you know and that was shortly before the war broke out. Well, when the war broke out I was, I had volunteered for wartime training for Bomber Command. They were after, they were after volunteers and at that time I was only, what was it? Seventeen and a half approximately. And I went to South Wales to do my gunner training because you couldn’t be a wireless operator by itself. It had to be with the training as a gunner, an air gunner. Well, I went down to South Wales. I’ve forgotten the place it was but I remember doing my training down there which consisted of training on aircraft which was, which trailed a sort of a what would you call it?
Other: Kite? Kite?
RD: It was trailed. A sort of a target. It was a target. It was sort of a round sort of [pause] the idea was you hit it as many times as you could from a distance of over two hundred yards. And I remember the pilot putting up that aircraft putting in a bit of a complaint about me as a gunner as he didn’t know whether I was trying to hit him or the drogue. That’s what it was called. It was called a drogue. I don’t think he was too, he was too happy with me. Anyway, things mellowed and I did, let’s see, I suppose two months training as a gunner and we were trained from an open, open, an open [pause] an open seated. It wasn’t closed in or anything. We were just firing from the, from the side of the aircraft. It was a two seater. A very early one. Anyway, we’ll pass over that one but when I, when I had finished I was posted to Number 37 Bomber Squadron which was a Wellington aircraft. A Wellington aircraft was a two engined aircraft, and it was a geo traffic, a sort of cross of [pause] what was it made of? Aluminium and it was made in crossing and it was covered with fabric and two engined. And it sounds as though it was a very frail aircraft but believe me it was one of the workers of the Air Force. It was a very good aircraft. When you got, if you got a hit, if you got a hit and it made a hole in the side of the aircraft you got back alright because the whole sort of, the whole sort of make of the aircraft held together and sort of stuck together. You know what I mean? And so it sort of saved you from crashing or anything. So that was very helpful. But I, I was consigned to the rear gunner’s position because the crew that I was assigned with, when I was assigned to them had already done fifteen raids on Germany, and a number of raids that they did before they were sent home for a month’s rest was thirty, and they had already done fifteen. So when I’d done fifteen they had already done their thirty. You see what I mean. And the captain was a Flying Officer Warner who’d a big system of clothing shops in England, and I was his rear gunner because the rear gunner that he had at that stage had been dismissed from the Air Force because he had medical problems. Well, of course being at the start there I didn’t know much about it but I soon learned because the raids that we took part in were over Moers, the Ruhr Valley, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Black Forest North, Bremen, Waalhaven, Emden, [Gottensburg?] Hamburg, Munchengladbach twice, Sonnendorf, Soest, [Rossel?] and Rostock. And if you want to know why I remember those it’s only because I took them from my logbook which I haven’t got to show you because my eldest son has it and he’s sent it to me but it hasn’t reached me yet. So I have to apologise for that.
JB: Ok.
RD: But luckily I had made this. And from there I was transferred over to another squadron because I’d only done fifteen raids and I went to a squadron, same squadron of Wellingtons only it was commanded by a Squadron Leader Golding. Squadron Leader Golding was a regular officer and he was a very sort of experienced man and I was very pleased to have been allocated to him. With his aircraft I was posted not as a gunner but as a wireless operator which was my basic trade of course and he must have been quite pleased with me because he gave me an instant first operator’s job and I guided the aircraft by wireless over Hanover, Black Forest twice, Emden. I don’t know whether you want to know all this do you?
JB: Yes.
RD: Flushing, Berlin, Bottrop, Rotterdam, Hamburg, [Benroth] Hamburg, Berlin, Cuxhaven, Hamburg and Kiel. And after this that was my fifteen. So altogether I’d done thirty ops so I had to leave that squadron. They had to do another fifteen before they had it but I was sent on my way to do a month’s rest. So with, I was a sergeant at that time and I packed my kitbag and went to Euston Station on my way to Liverpool, but while I was on the station platform waiting for my train a message came over the tannoy system, ‘Would Sergeant Dunbar please report to the station master’s office on platform 1.’ So I thought to myself well what the heck would I have to report that I’m on my way for a leave.’ However, I made my way across to see what they wanted and the station master said, ‘I’ve had a report from — ’ I’ve forgotten my station. Feltwell. RAF Feltwell, where we were stationed. The squadron were stationed — ‘Asking you to return back to base.’ I wasn’t very pleased with that of course. So I got the train back and when I went back there and I saw the wing commander in his office and he said, ‘I don’t want you to be worried, Reg.’ He called me by my first name so I thought there was something funny. So I sat down on the chair and he said, ‘37 Squadron is going out to Middle East to operate there in North Africa and your erstwhile captain, Squadron Leader Golding asked me to contact you to see if you would be his wireless operator to go out to Middle East with him. And if you don’t want to go you just say so.’ So, I just quickly thought to myself the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know, because if I had gone on my leave when I came back I’d have to be put on another squadron see, and I knew him and he knew me and we got on well together. And so I said, ‘Well, all things being equal, sir.’ [unclear]
RD: It’s ok.
JB: ‘All things being equal, sir I think I’ll go out with the squadron as first wireless operator.’ And I trotted around to the squadron commander’s office and shook hands with Squadron Leader Golding who welcomed me like a long lost son. And we had to do some sort of training where, sort of radio training, you know where we would go away from base and he’d ask me to sort of guide him back to the middle of the airfield. Which I did by using my own sort of loop and everything and he was very pleased with that. So, anyway we were all set to go and we set out in January. January ’41 I think it was. Excuse me if I’m a little out on the dates.
JB: That’s ok.
RD: But out to Middle East. Right. Now, I was first wireless operator. Now, we went from Feltwell and we flew by night and we got to Malta where we were, Malta was our first stop. Malta. RAF Malta. And from there the station commander was a group captain and he was a little concerned at the times the Italians had attacked Malta and seeing the local population being housed in the caves in Malta because there were lots of caves there and they were pushed in there when there was a warning. And he asked Air Ministry I presume if he could hold on to 37 Squadron to get a bit of their own back on Italy. And from there we were, we attacked Taranto twice. That was the Naval base. And Naples which was effective of course, and Castel Benito and they were the total. And then we went and we were released from there. He let us go after that and we went on. We went on to our base at Shallufa which was on the [pause] I was based on the, there as the [pause] excuse me while I just —
JB: That’s ok.
RD: What do they call the canal?
Other: Suez.
RD: The canal. You know the —
JB: The Suez Canal.
RD: The Suez Canal. The Suez Canal that was, yeah. Well, that’s where Shallufa was built. It was an air force base and it was built solely to meet the needs of the Air Force and they were, we were, we were stationed in Shallufa, the squadron and we were used as a sort of heavy bomber squadron to bomb bases on the north, north of the, the [pause] you know the, the north shore of the north. You know where. Oh, well if I give you these actual targets you’ll probably know where it was —
JB: Yes, don’t worry.
RD: Hmm?
JB: Don’t worry.
RD: Yes. Well, we were sent out in a bomber. From there we bombed Bardia, twice. Bardia is a port on the north coast of North Africa. So we did two on Bardia, Derna which is further along the coast. Tobruk, Benghazi, Fouka, Benghazi again. Tobruk again. Rhodes and Fouka again. So we did our fair share of that. After that just the bottom [unclear] I was recalled, personally recalled to the UK when I was sent back by ship. When I got back I was posted to the first, 15. I thought that was first. It was 15. Number 15 Operational Training Unit and that was training people coming on to bombers which was at RAF Harwell. That’s where they later had the chemical —
JB: Yeah.
RD: You remember that.
JB: Yeah.
RD: Right. Well, that was on the 30th posted there to train others. Well, on the 30th of May 1942 we were in our bomber. The bomber that we were allocated to. Oh, I’ll tell you the background of that. The prime minister who you know. The prime minster wanted to get his own back a little bit on Germany and decided he would like to have the Air Force hold thousand bomber operations over Cologne. Just to give them a bit of their own back. To do that he had to shut down the operational flying of the RAF Bomber Command while they got the aircraft serviced because it would have to include training aircraft as well. He wouldn’t have enough otherwise. And so they had to have a sort of a competition and you had to have a sort of a pick, pick, pick [pause] You had to have all these aircraft of one squadron put in a hat, their numbers and you picked one. And some got operational flying Mark 2 Merlin engine modern Wellingtons, and others got aircraft that were old ones and only being used for circuits and bumps. That’s training pilots to, you know land. And unfortunately the one that we picked for the Cologne operation was one of the old ones and the sergeant, the flight sergeant who was the pilot of this first thousand bomber operation to Cologne was a bit, well fed up with it because when we were doing training for this operation he couldn’t get it to fly higher than eight thousand feet which isn’t very much. Anyway, the way he overcome that was on the operation itself. Instead of taking the aircraft to the city he kept it on the outskirts and instructed the bomb aimer to drop his bombs when he did a split, if you excuse my language split arse turn around and, to let his bomb go when his [unclear] And of course the super thing carried the bombs into the centre of the city or as near as he could get them because he wasn’t going to check. He wasn’t going to take any risks with the aircraft because he was too low. So anyway, we got back alright obviously. Well, we went on training. Training the, and in the, what was the prime minister’s name in those days?
Other: Churchill.
RD: The prime minister’s name.
Other: Churchill.
JB: Churchill. Winston Churchill.
RD: Churchill.
JB: Winston Churchill.
RD: Yeah. He was, he was so pleased with the efforts of this that he decided he’d like another one. So they’d done a second thousand bomber operation to go to Essen. Not all that far from Cologne. That’s where they had all the armaments. Well, we were sitting, and we went on this Bomber Command operation, a thousand bomber. It was successful and we did it and we got a few holes in the aircraft to satisfy us. Or satisfy the Germans I should say. We got back alright, and would you believe it that was on the 11th of June 1942, only a month later. Well, would you believe it there was no satisfying the prime minister was there? He decided he’d like to try a third one if you remember. Anyway, we were sitting in the briefing room. I remember sitting next to my friend who was also a wireless operator, a fella named Harry Jordan, and the chap came on and they had a big briefing room for these things you know and they tell you what the weather’s like and what the targets are. It was a typical Bomber Command briefing room and when this chap he got up to start his briefing another chap came on from the Ministry, the Air Ministry and he excused himself and obviously they had arranged it between them because it was his job to put to the audience volunteers for special duties of just wireless, and young pilots. Young pilots. I’ll tell you why in a minute. So I turned to my comrade and I said, ‘How do you feel about volunteering for special duties? I’m fed up with these thousand bomber raids.’ He said, ‘Yeah, alright.’ So we were two of the volunteers, and we went up to a place. I won’t bore you with what happened afterwards but eventually we were sent up to a place called RAF Drem which was a little south of Edinburgh, and we were briefed there. And we eventually, we were posted on to [pause] oh the aircraft there were Defiants. They were fighters. Now, the reason they happened to be fighters, Defiants was because they had been used as night fighters originally but the Germans had soon, they were fighter aircraft with a turret in the top and Germans had learned how to get at them coming underneath. So it didn’t take them long for the RAF to discount them, and so they gave them to us. They had nothing else for them and so they used them to, used them for daylight operations called Moonshine and this, how they did this, the Defiant squadron they had usually around about twelve aircraft, and they had the pilot and the likes of me who was acting as a wireless gunner. If we were attacked we attacked them from the, from the turret. But our wireless job was in the back of the aircraft. We’d have to get down out of the turret and work our way in to utilise our skills on the radio stuff. Now, how it worked was this, you might like to know. I think this is still secret. How it works was this. When we got, when we got up to about a thousand or, how many was it? I think it was about eight thousand feet. Around about that. We were, we were over the south coast and we were met by a squadron of Spitfires or some fighters, and we were waiting there and at that stage we were flying out over the German coast, and we would have had the information to turn on our electrical stuff which comprised of equipment which gave the impression when switched on of there being a sort of a wing of bomber aircraft going out there. It wasn’t of course. It was only us. The Germans, hearing this would take off as a squadron of fighters to attack this incoming lot, which we weren’t and they would be flying this way and when they were over here where we were the Spitfires, who were on a higher level would take up with them, and would sort of have a dogfight with them I suppose. And in the interim period the American squadrons would go out from where they were arranged to go from on the daylights. Now, that’s about all I’m going to say about that but they were, but we went to France, Holland, France, Belgium, France calibration, calibration. That’s where we had to do calibration. Make sure that the equipment was still right. Holland, France, Germany, France, calibration, Holland, France. Oh, and then we crashed at Heathrow [laughs] We got back alright but France and Holland and that was all we did on the daylight. Then we did night operations. Now, a night operation were absolutely different. Dutch, French coast were divided into eight positions of ten miles. It doesn’t matter how long they were, but they were limited and each aircraft of ours —
[knocking on the door - recording pause]
JB: Carry on.
RD: Each aircraft of ours was, was sent to a different position. So we were stationed at, what’s that RAF station near London?
Other: Northolt.
RD: Hmm?
Other: Northolt.
RD: Northolt. We were based at Northolt. But on the days when there was going to be a big bomber attack at night we were sent to the forward landing grounds that we’d been allocated to. Refuelled. Did everything right. And that night when the Bomber Command, the bombers were going out there we were allocated to our different positions and we switched on our equipment from, but we didn’t switch it from, we were sitting in our turret and when we were given the instruction swe lowered the seat which was just a crossbar and got in to the back of the aircraft and switched on our equipment, and this equipment was just jamming equipment. It jammed the German radar and when it, we didn’t do that until we knew the RAF were going over. But when they were going over we switched on and it stopped the Germans being able to sort of get on to our people who were coming out. It’s a very vague way of explaining it, I’m sorry.
JB: That’s alright.
RD: I’ve forgotten most of it.
JB: That’s fine.
RD: And they did that. All I’ve got here is eight positions which were the positions we were in. Position 7 6 7 1 1 1 8 5 7 7. Just all the numbers on the different nights that the Bomber Command aircraft were going out there. And in the end they took me off it and sent me up to Scotland to train others which I didn’t like particularly but then I think it’s in that thing that Richard’s got.
Other: Dumfries. Dumfries.
RD: Dumfries, that’s right. RAF Dumfries. We used to go out taking pilots and crew. Training them, you know. And we, it was while we were up there we heard about the landings in France, you know. We didn’t take part in those. We were probably told that we had done enough. And that’s about it.
JB: That’s about it.
RD: And from there I was taken on as a flight lieutenant in the RAF, given a permanent commission and what did I end up as? Wing commander wasn’t it? Wing commander. And I left the Royal Air Force when I found that I couldn’t get any further, and I went in to the Australian Air Force and did some manpower planning for them which I in the meantime had become expert in. And from there I did a short term engagement with them. I extended a couple of years. They asked me if I’d stay on for a while in Australia which I did. My wife didn’t mind, in fact she was a real wonder isn’t she? She’s a wonder. She stayed. She didn’t mind. And yeah, and from there I came back to England. And from England we went out oh [pause] and we came out to New Zealand and stayed out here. We got permission to stay out here. So that’s about it.
JB: That’s it. Thank you. That was splendid.
RD: [unclear]
JB: It was excellent. I really enjoyed that.
RD: Oh, well I’m glad you enjoyed it. I’ve got —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Reg Dunbar
Creator
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Jennifer Barraclough
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADunbarR180624, PDunbarR1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:48:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Reg Dunbar enlisted for the RAF in Liverpool and it was suggested that he join as a wireless operator. He went to RAF Cardington initially and then to Yatesbury for training. He also trained as an air gunner, and after training was posted to 37 Squadron flying Wellingtons. When he had completed thirty operations and was heading home on leave he received a message at Euston station to return to base. His pilot requested that he join his crew that they were being posted to the Middle East, and flew to RAF Shallufa via Malta to commence bombing operations. He was recalled back to UK and was posted to 15 OTU at RAF Harwell and it was from here that he took part in the first thousand bomber operation on Cologne in 1942. Reg volunteered for operations at RAF Drem flying in Defiants as part of Moonshine operations to jam enemy radar. He was given a permanent commission and joined the RAAF attaining the rank of Wing Commander.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
France
Germany
Great Britain
Malta
North Africa
Egypt--Suez Canal Region
England--Bedfordshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Wiltshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Libya
Libya--Bardiyah
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-05-30
1942-06-11
100 Squadron
15 OTU
37 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Defiant
Operational Training Unit
RAF Cardington
RAF Drem
RAF Dumfries
RAF Harwell
RAF Shallufa
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/PFranklinRH1801.2.jpg
ed993c40dd54fbc164c33bd99d02f6c3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/AFranklinRH180615.2.mp3
0f8222ecc090f5fb6357f096dac99466
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Richard
R Franklin
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Richard Franklin (b. 1923, 1319873, 178702 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a wireless operator / air gunner and later retrained as a navigator.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Franklin and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Franklin, RH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SW: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Sue Walters, the interviewee is Richard Franklin. The interview is taking place at Mr Franklin’s home in Cople, Bedfordshire, on Friday the 15th of July 2018.
RF: I’m quite happy to do this interview and to tell Sue my life in the RAF, particularly in Bomber Command. I knew, when the war broke out, that I would have to go into the services one way or another because I was still, I wasn’t in a reserved occupation, I lived on the farm but I wasn’t actually working on the farm and after the men who, some of the men who worked on the farm teased [?] me about life, what life would be like in the army, if I joined the army, they had served in the First World War, in the trenches and it was horrifying to hear them. So, I decided there and then that no way if I could possibly help it would I go in the army. I didn’t want to go in the navy because I, I’m no sailor and I got see sick when I went on an outing with school down to Poole Harbour. So when the recruiting office opened in Bedford, for the RAF, I went along and I volunteered to join the RAF as aircrew. And from then on my life was taken over by the RAF and I have no regret whatsoever. Unfortunately, a lot of my friends in Bomber Command lost their lives but I was one of the fortunate ones, I survived the war without any undue injuries and then I was so enjoying life in the RAF after the war, when I was travelling out to the Far and the Middle East that I signed on for a further five years and I would’ve signed on for until I was pensionable age, entitled to a RAF pension, had not a tragedy in my family persuaded me to go back home and join the family on the farm. Which is what I did and I’ve been since 1954, which is when I left the RAF, I’ve been a farmer in the village of Cople on a farm, that my father, my grandfather rather took on in 1901. I, my father took the farm, I took it on from him. I have now retired and my son is running the farm and that is the story of my life [laughs]. I did 34, I think it was 34, 44, 34 raids over Germany. 30 was the number of raids you do and then you were what they called “tour expired”, that meant you were finished flying on raids for the time being and I did my 30 and apart from one raid, when we got shot up by a German fighter and were in dire straits, we could’ve crashed into the English Channel or crashed because of the damage to the aircraft and the fact that we couldn’t get the wheels down, the undercarriage down to land but fortunately we had a very good pilot and a very good flight engineer and they got us safely back to England and nobody, nobody in the crew was in anyway harmed at all but I was one, I was the fortunate member of my squadron who survived a whole tour and was happy to stay in the Air Force for the time, for, till after the war. We had bombed Frankfurt and had left, dropped our bombs on the markers that were marking the target and had left the target area and the gunners were relaxing and we were on our way home and all of a sudden there was this God almighty explosion and the starboard outer engine caught fire and a night fighter had come up and they had guns that came up and fired on the underneath of the aircraft and it set the starboard outer engine on fire and fortunately the flight engineer and the pilot between them managed to extinguish the flames and feather the engine and we was, managed to get home on three engines but the fuel tank on the starboard side had been ruptured and we were desperately short of fuel, we knew that and we knew that we stood a very good chance of coming down in the Channel so we all put our Mae West on ready to abandon aircraft if we did but I was in, the fact that I was the wireless operator, I was in touch with the rescue services all the while home, they kept passing frequency beams onto us so they knew where we were. The air sea rescue were alerted but we made it back and then we were told to go to an aerodrome Lakenheath, near Cambridge, where they had sufficient fire tenders and rescue appliances to rescue us if we crashed. We couldn’t get the undercarriage down, so we had to land on the grass, on the side of the runway, fortunately it was a smooth landing and we all climbed out unharmed and that was it, that was the only near go to being killed that I had in the whole time I was in the RAF.
SW: Off you go.
RF: We were met by the station commander, the Group Captain, when we climbed out of the aircraft, and set down and he shook us all by the hand, and said: ‘Well done, chaps, go to the mess and have a good meal and I will see you in the morning’. Which we did. And we were issued with the railway warrants and with our flying gear and all that, with our parachutes, which we had to take with us, we tracked all our way back to Leeming, in Yorkshire, to our airbase, yeah. The one feature of that episode that I have always felt sorry for was the fact, that the flight engineer, who was engaged to a lady who was pregnant, decided that no more would he fly on operations and he went to the Squadron commander when we got back to our base at Leeming and said he was not going to fly anymore and that immediately court martial offence, he was told, you are going LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, you volunteered to do it when you joined the RAF, you’ll be placed under arrest. He was placed into the guard room and that’s the last we saw of him. Until many years later, when I was serving in Transport Command, I met him out in a place called Sharjah, in the Persian Gulf. I was on my way to India and that was a terrible place, it had no facilities and he was, came up to me and said: ‘Hello, Sir’. I said: ‘Who are you?’ and he introduced, I knew straight away who he was and I said: ‘What an earth are you doing here?’ And he said that he had been reduced to the ranks and sent out here as an AC2 to clean aircraft toilets and clean aircraft out as they ferried through and that was his punishment. It was because of him and the pilot that we got back to UK from this bombing raid safely and in one piece and that was the way he was treated. Simply because his future wife had persuaded him not to risk his life again. And one of the reasons I was quite happy to go to the Bomber Command Memorial in Lincoln, because I was told that the names of all the people who were killed or missing were inscribed on the plaques in this memorial and the lady in the desk behind the reception just asked me for this fellow’s name. All I could give her was his name and his address, his home address and she found his name and his permanent address and she gave me a leaflet, telling me on which panel his name was inscribed and also a leaflet which told me when he had been killed, the night he perished along with all his crew and where he is buried and I know now that he is buried in a grave on the outskirts of Berlin along with his six other crewmates. 34 raids as a sergeant. I ended up as a flight sergeant at the end of the raid and then I went into Transport Command, I did a navigation course and I became a Flight Lieutenant, I was commissioned and went to became a Flight Lieutenant and I left the RAF in 1954. I’ve got three logbooks but they’re not all, uhm. These are the ones, that’s, that’s the second raid I went on, that’ll be to Düsseldorf and that’ll be, that was the third one with Berlin and then Frankfurt and Stuttgart and so on. We had to [unclear], then Leipzig, then Frankfurt again, that’s when we got shot up, then Berlin on again, another on Berlin again, Stuttgart there, Frankfurt again, Frankfurt twice in three, twice in three and once on the 18th and again on the 22nd. And Berlin again, then Essen and then this is prior to the second front opening, we were bombing in France, gun emplacements, Villeneuve, Le Bourget, Lens, Düsseldorf again, Karlsruhe, Villeneuve again, Gent, Bloen [?], Louvain, [unclear], Aachen, Bourg Leopold, operation [unclear], and my last, that’s it, my last operation was Arras, that was my thirtieth bombing raid and the second, the second front on the 5th of June we were bombing in Merville, France gun emplacements [?] and that’s when the second front opened. So, that’s and after that I went, I was what they called screened and I became an instructor at Stratford. When I finished my training as a wireless operator, I was posted to 427 Squadron which was an all Canadian Squadron in 6 Group based up on Yorkshire and they were, their standard of discipline was far more lenient and lax, than would have been if I had been on an RAF station and I quite enjoyed my time with the Canadians.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Richard Franklin
Creator
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Sue Walters
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFranklinRH180615, PFranklinRH1801
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Pending review
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Format
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00:15:16 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Franklin served as a wireless operator and flew 34 operations in Bomber Command over Germany. Describes the only operation on which he risked being killed, when his aircraft was attacked by a German night fighter over Frankfurt. Tells of their flight engineer being accused of Lack of Moral Fibre. Mentions bombing various targets in preparation for the opening of the second front in France. Was posted to 427 Squadron.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Language
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eng
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-05
1944-06-06
aircrew
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
forced landing
lack of moral fibre
memorial
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Leeming
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/865/10825/AGillRA-JT170930.2.mp3
ee2bdb54a700a6de722a519acf341d1e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hazeldene, Peter
Peter Vere Hazeldene
P V Hazeldene
Description
An account of the resource
19 items. An oral history interview with Rachel and John Gill about their father, Peter Hazeldene DFC (b. 1922, 553414 Royal Air Force) and 16 other items including log book, memoirs, medals and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 106 and 57 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rachel and John Gill and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hazeldene, PV
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 30th of September 2017. I’m in North Hykeham with Terry and Rachel Gill and we’re going to talk about Pete Hazeldene, Hazeldene, who was Rachel’s father, and his experiences in the RAF. So we start talking to Rachel. What do you know about dad in his earliest life?
RG: Well, I know he was the eldest child of seven and he was born in Barry Island. Dad always loved the sea and I think this is, was because he was born near the sea. He had diphtheria as a very small boy and was in an Isolation Hospital. He was a member of the choir, sang in the choir and an altar boy. And then they moved to, to Cardiff. Dad enjoyed life. He loved camp. He loved to go and take, with his friend take his tent to the bottom of Caerphilly Hill. And —
CB: What did his father do?
RG: Oh, Grandpa was in a drawing office in Cardiff. Grandma stayed at home with all these children. Dad left school around about fifteen and was an errand boy for a jewellers but his love of the Air Force started when he saw a poster in a window offering to see the world from a different angle. And that’s when dad decided he would join the Air Force. Grandpa was against it because he wanted him to join the Welsh Regiment but dad was adamant and away he went. I’m not quite sure if grandpa signed his forms or whether it was Grandma. Dad joined the Air Force and came as a boy entrant to Cranwell.
CB: So this is 1939. Beginning of ’39.
RG: Yes.
CB: Although he’d showed his interest in 1938.
RG: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
RG: He was, he did the training in Cranwell as a, what did he do? Wireless operator.
CB: Just stop there a mo.
RG: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Doing technical training.
TG: Technical training.
RG: Oh right. Yeah.
TG: With a —
[recording paused]
CB: So, tell us a bit more about him leaving home.
RG: It was quite an adventure coming to Lincolnshire for dad because it was his very first time he’d left home and his very first time he’d actually been out of Cardiff. Out of Wales. And he got here as a sixteen year old and he never left Lincolnshire all his life.
CB: So, we’re going to get Terry to talk about the technicalities here because he came to Cranwell as a boy entrant in the days when they were doing that sort of training at Cranwell. So what do we know about that?
TG: Well, from what he told us and from the books we have that he wrote at the time, his technical notes, he was being trained on radio and electrical theory. And at that time of course he was too young to join aircrew but when the war did break out he did volunteer for bomber crew and he was accepted for that. He was sent from Cranwell to a Gunnery School at Upper Heyford and he trained on wireless op, as a wireless operator and he was trained in Morse Code. Subsequent to that training he joined or was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Finningley.
CB: I think as a wireless operator/air gunner then he went to an outpost somewhere to be trained in gunnery.
TG: Yes. He went West Freugh.
CB: West Freugh.
TG: Freugh. Yes.
CB: In Scotland.
TG: Yes. His first flight was from West Freugh in March I think it was. 1940.
CB: Right.
TG: According to his log book.
CB: So he would have just been eighteen then.
TG: He would. Yes. He’d just turned eighteen a couple of months before. And obviously he was successful and then was sent to Finningley.
CB: Right. Just stop there a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re just going to go back to the Cranwell experience because he’s away from home and there are things there that are different —
RG: Yes.
CB: From being in Wales. So —
RG: Very different. His mum was a very good cook and there was always very good portions for the family but at Cranwell the portions were very small and obviously it didn’t meet dad’s appetite. So the only thing that he could fill up on was cabbage. Dad hated cabbage but he learned that, you know if he wanted to feel full cabbage was the way forward and eventually got to like it and grew them. Yeah.
CB: Extraordinary. But he was being trained in ground radio and electrical activities so most likely he then did some work on the ground.
TG: He did. I understand it was at Abingdon to start with before he was posted to Finningley.
CB: Before he did his gunnery course.
TG: Before his gunnery course. Yes.
CB: Yes. So while he was at Abingdon he, it sounds as though it was when he was there that he volunteered for aircrew.
TG: That’s right. He, after, he then attended a gunnery course and was posted to Finningley where he then flew as a wireless operator and air gunner with 106 Squadron.
CB: What aircraft were they flying?
RG: Hampdens.
TG: They were Hampdens at the time.
CB: Right.
TG: And he later, he was posted with 106 Squadron to Coningsby. And he did thirty operations with 106 Squadron. One of his pilots was a chap called Bob Wareing who on one particular raid they attacked the Schnarhorst and the Gneisenau in Brest and they were successful in putting that ship out of action. And the Scharnhorst. And for that raid I understand that his pilot was awarded the DFC and Peter was mentioned in dispatches. At the end of his thirty raids, thirty operations he, he was posted to Polebrook and seconded to the Americans. But I should add that whilst he was Finningley of course they used to occasionally listen to Lord Haw Haw who correctly broadcast that the clock in the sergeant’s mess was ten minutes slow. Which he often used to laugh about, didn’t he? Your father. That he was correct in Lord Haw Haw. But whilst he was at Polebrook with the Americans he flew in their B17s and he taught them wireless operations and Morse Code. And he flew quite on a few, on a few training exercises with them. One particular rather unsavoury incident took place when he took the class out, of Americans to a pub one night. Amongst them was a black crew.
RG: American.
TG: American crewman. And while in the pub the American military police came in and dragged the black lad out, beat him up and dragged him away because he was in the wrong sort of pub. They say. Your father couldn’t really understand it could he? Peter couldn’t. Pete couldn’t understand that. They charged, the barman charged your dad sixpence. Peter, Pete was charged sixpence because in the melee they broke a beer glass. But he, he never forgot that incident and he couldn’t really rationalise it. It was not what he had expected so to speak. On another occasion he told us that the flight engineer went berserk on the aircraft and in order to subdue him Peter had to, or Pete had to knock him out with an ammo box. I understand there was, and he was grounded for LMF afterwards. Not Pete. The flight engineer.
CB: The American. American flight engineer.
TG: No. No.
RG: No, this was —
TG: This was while he was at Finningley.
RG: Yeah.
CB: Oh, Finningley. Oh, right.
TG: Yeah. Sorry. I’m getting things out of order aren’t I, a little bit?
CB: Yeah. Right.
TG: Slightly. Doesn’t matter.
CB: Ok. So this is 106 Squadron.
TG: As far as I remember it was 106.
CB: At Finningley.
TG: Yes. On another occasion that they went on a couple of gardening missions which was obviously dropping the mines. But they’d got one on board still after this operation and they ventured into France to see whether they could drop this mine somewhere else. And they didn’t take much notice of it but a light aircraft gun opened fire on them and as far as they were aware nothing had happened but when they landed the rear gunner was dead and the thing was awash with blood. His area. And they could never get rid of that blood off that aircraft however much they washed it.
CB: We’ll stop there.
RG: Yes, I—
[recording paused]
CB: So, just going back to the gardening bit.
TG: Gardening of course was dropping mines into the sea and to do that one had to fly very low otherwise the mines would break up. So when they flew in over the land they would also be very low and in range of the, the light anti-aircraft gun that obviously caught the rear gunner.
CB: What sort of anecdotes did he have about training and what was going on there? So, on the airfield.
TG: Well, he did tell me on more than one occasion that he recalled two acts that appeared to be of sabotage when he was, I think training as a gunner. On one occasion he said, on one evening or one night five aircraft who weren’t parked together caught fire almost simultaneously. On another occasion he was on board an aircraft which, as it took off and it had taken off only managed to travel just over the perimeter of the airfield when they crash landed in to a field and the aircraft caught fire. They all managed to get out although Peter said he was burned a little bit. Such was the mark of the man. But when the aircraft was examined because it had failed to gain height the chain that operated the elevators had a, had a bolt inserted in to stop it from operating fully. What became of any enquiry into that he didn’t know and I don’t know. So that was a couple of sort of sad incidents, or suspicious incidents that he, he mentioned to us.
CB: What affect did the loss of the rear gunner have on the rest of the crew?
TG: He never said because —
RG: Dad passed out.
TG: Your father passed out, I think. Peter —
RG: At the sight of the blood.
TG: Pete passed out at the sight of the blood when they landed. But as I’ve already indicated that however much they tried to clean that aircraft the stains of that blood remained. But I rather think that was with 106 Squadron.
CB: And that would need a replacement. So how did the replacement fit in to the crew? Do we know about that?
TG: Peter never said. He didn’t elaborate too much on that side of the operations. He never really mentioned the losses he witnessed when he was on the raids. Although we do know that those losses and what happened haunted him for the rest of his life.
CB: Because this is the early part of the war we’re talking about here.
TG: Yes.
CB: So the Americans came in in ’42.
TG: Yes.
CB: That’s why they were getting help. So what else did he tell you about dealing with the Americans? Working with the Americans.
RG: One story was that dad had been on, I can’t tell you where he’d been on the raid but he was flying back and the aircraft had got minor damage and they couldn’t make it back to East Kirkby. So they had to fly and land lower down the country. Was it lower? Or upper? Well, he landed —
TG: South.
RG: Yes. And dad was doing the Morse Code. The colours of the day and who they were etcetera and he flew over an American base and they opened fire on them. And dad was firing away, not firing away, he was doing his Morse Code. Who he was and the aircraft. And eventually after they’d fired at them, eventually the penny dropped who they were and they landed. They were escorted. The crew were escorted by gunpoint to a higher level. Dad and his crew should have been in the officer’s mess but they weren’t. They were separated. Eventually the aircraft was made airworthy and they took off. And being as they were a whole load of young lads they raided the stores and filled it with toilet rolls. Filled the bomb bay with toilet rolls. They should have flown off and come home to East Kirkby but no. Young lads as they were the pilot did a turn around and as they flew over the airfield the bomb bays opened, the toilet rolls flew out and dad tapped away, you historically say, ‘You crapped on us [laughs] Here’s the bumph to go with it.’ When they got back to East Kirkby they thought oh my goodness we’re all going to be in trouble but nothing was ever said. So, yes. That was, and dad didn’t have a great love of the Americans.
CB: This is, this is later in the war we’re talking about here.
RG: Yes. Later. Yes.
CB: But it’s prompted by the earlier point about being at Polebrook.
RG: Yes.
TG: So —
RG: The Americans. Yeah.
CB: What else do we know about when he was there?
TG: After thirty operations which Peter thankfully survived he volunteered and was, as I say an instructor, went as an instructor to the US Air Force at Polebrook. Teaching them Morse Code and wireless operations procedure and I think we’ve already mentioned about this business about going to the pub haven’t we?
CB: Yes.
TG: Shall I read —
CB: What other, what other experiences did he have with them?
TG: Well, they, they used to fly all over the country of course but Peter at that time, I’m not sure if that time he was probably married to Olive which we’ll come to later but, who was at Spalding in South Lincolnshire and he used to persuade the Americans to land at Sutton Bridge which was only about fifteen miles from Spalding, when he’d been on a trip with them. And he’d disembark from the aircraft and he’d cadge a lift one way or another into Spalding to see Olive. So he was using them as a rather an expensive taxi but it served his purpose very well.
RG: Mum and dad met when dad was visiting a crew member who’d got badly burned in an aircraft and, I don’t think it was one of dad’s crew but it was a fellow RAF man. And he was at Stamford Hospital and I think they went on a motorbike, two of them to see, to visit this friend and they stopped back at Spalding obviously for a beer or two. And they went to the Greyhound down Broad Street in Spalding and my mum was, Olive was the bar maid there. And obviously there was some attraction and dad kept visiting. Yeah. But that’s where they first met. And if he hadn’t have wanted a beer and pulled in they would never have met. And mum and dad were married in April 1942.
CB: So, how did they keep contact during the war?
RG: I think it was dad visiting home. They lived at, with my nan in Little London which is very close to Spalding. I think it was just a question of dad coming and visiting and letters. That sort of thing. Yes.
CB: Ok. So at the end of his posting to Polebrook to assist the Americans.
TG: Yes.
CB: How long was that posting there? Do we know?
TG: Well, he, he volunteered for a second tour and he was posted in 1943. In November 1943 if I recall correctly to Husbands Bosworth where he trained with a [pause] with his second crew. A rookie crew.
CB: That was an OTU.
TG: Yes.
CB: 14 OTU. Yeah.
TG: But from February 1941 he’d been at Coningsby just to go back. He did his thirty raids. Then to Polebrook. And then by November ’43 he, he, he, he went to Husbands Bosworth and there he was crewed up with, as I say the new crew who were under training and the pilot was, flight well then he was flight lieutenant then, but a chap called J B P Spencer who was nicknamed Tuesday for reasons that Peter could never discover. Tuesday was from Durham and from quite a well to do family. They and the rest of the crew after they’d finished training were posted to East Kirkby in the run up basically to D-Day.
CB: And then what was the Squadron number there?
TG: It was 57 Squadron.
CB: Right.
TG: At East Kirkby at the time.
CB: Flying?
TG: Lancasters then.
CB: Well, normally there would be a link of a Heavy Conversion Unit between the OTU and the Squadron but it’s possible they didn’t have them operating at that time. When did he go to East Kirkby?
TG: In March 1944.
CB: Ok.
TG: That’s from memory but —
CB: Stop there briefly.
TG: I’m sure it is.
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re chopping and changing a bit but let’s just go back to Finningley.
RG: [unclear]
CB: So what, what, yes what anecdotes do we have about dad flying in Finningley?
RG: Well, I haven’t any recollection of dad talking about it at the time of that he was in there but later on life I and my husband went on holiday and we flew. It was then Robin Hood Airport and we flew from Finningley as it was and dad said oh, well his pilot, Spencer was rubbish at flying. Flying a plane. He would just throw it in to the sky and when he landed he would equally do the same. It was always a hit and miss affair whether they actually got down ok. Dad said that Finningley had got a crosswind and you had to fly, land it sort of diagonal. I didn’t believe him really but off we went on this holiday. And when we came back the wind was that strong that we basically had to fly as dad had said that his Spencer did. But it was typical. We landed and we were home. But yes. So Finningley has never got any better over the years. Or is it the pilots?
CB: Or is it the crosswind?
RG: Crosswind. Well, yes I suppose it’s how, how the airfield is. Mind you they don’t call them airfields now, do they?
CB: Well, it’s an airport now.
RG: An airport. Yeah. But to me they’ll be aerodromes.
CB: Home of the Vulcan. Yes.
RG: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Right.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
TG: Right. From the OTU at Husbands Bosworth and at Market Harborough Pete then was posted to the HCU at Wigsley where they flew Stirlings. And then on to Syerston where he —
CB: Lancaster Flying School.
TG: Well, the —
CB: Finishing School.
TG: The Lancaster Finishing School, I beg your pardon at Syerston where I think they’d also pick up the engineer, would they not?
CB: They would have done that at Wigsley.
TG: Yeah. Sorry at Wigsley.
CB: Yes. But he doesn’t mention that in his tour because it’s expanding the crew to the final seventh man.
TG: I see. He never, he never mentioned much about some details.
CB: No. Then he went on to his second operational Squadron which was?
TG: 57 Squadron.
CB: Yeah.
TG: Where —
CB: That was, where was that?
TG: East Kirkby.
CB: Right.
TG: And that was in April 1944.
CB: Right. We’ll stop there for a mo. Thank you.
[recording paused]
TG: The attrition rate was very very high.
CB: So he joined 57 Squadron in 1944.
TG: Yes.
CB: Early part of ’44. Didn’t he?
TG: With Tuesday Spencer as his pilot. And the rest of the crew, Clarke, West, Hughes-Games, and Grice and George I think his name was. And they flew twenty five missions and I think they were very intense at the time. The enemy fire and such. But they managed to survive it but at the end of the twenty five raids Peter was told by the commanding officer he could not continue to fly. He’d had, he needed a rest and he was stood down. And he went for about ten days leave and when he came back he discovered that the rest of his crew were dead or at least missing. And it transpired that they’d been shot down on the 31st of August 1944 after a raid on the railway yards at Joigny La Roche. About a hundred and twenty kilometres south west I think of Paris. And when he arrived back on base he was summoned to the station commander’s office where he was introduced to Tuesday Spencer’s parents who wanted to meet him as the friend of their late son. And —
RG: Twenty.
TG: Sorry?
RG: The lad was twenty.
TG: He was only twenty years old was Tuesday. And Pete was only a little bit more and they gave Peter five pounds to spend on a good night out.
RG: No. They sent him to mark his commission and his DFC five pounds.
TG: Of the —
RG: Because of their, yes that’s in here. Yeah.
TG: Yeah. And instead of spending it on drink because probably his first inclination would be to do he and Olive decided to spend this money on a pair of candlesticks in memory of the crew. And those candlesticks are still with Rachel’s elder sister. Pride of place on the mantelpiece no doubt. In memory of them. What happened to that crew was that from research we’ve carried out and what Peter was told at the time that the aircraft at least blew up returning from the raid. As far as we can work out. And from, again from records we obtained from the Public Record Office at Kew Hughey, Hughey Hughes-Games was the first to parachute out of the plane followed by Sergeant Grice who Peter didn’t know but was acting as Pete’s replacement while he was stood down. And the Germans later said a third parachute caught fire on the way down but no other men escaped the plane. And the Lanc which was called Q for Queenie ND954 burned out on the ground. Hughes-Games it transpired was taken prisoner of war as was Sergeant Grice and the rest of the crew were killed. And they’re buried at Banneville-La-Campagne near Caen. I might have pronounced that incorrectly. Sadly, Hughes-Games who was interviewed by the Red Cross and from some of the information I’ve given to you about it catching fire and whatever came from him he contracted meningitis and died in, Stalag 3 was it? And is buried in Poland. The rest of the crew as I say are buried near Caen. And I took Peter back there and we’ve been back to their graves several times. Sergeant Grice survived as a prisoner of war and I think he ended up back at home and he lived to be in his mid-eighties in Shropshire. But we never met him and Peter didn’t know him. So that was really the last of his memories of 57 Squadron and the loss of that crew. He did commence a third tour. Incidentally, the crew he lost at 57 Squadron were on their thirty first raid. And it’s commonly thought that thirty was the limit but temporarily it was lifted to thirty five around that time I understand. And sadly on their thirty first raid when they died.
RG: The only plane on that day to be lost from East Kirkby.
TG: On the 31st of July that raid went, basically things were a lot easier for the bombers at that time and it was the only aircraft lost on that raid, on that day from East Kirkby.
CB: How did he feel about the loss of his crew?
TG: Peter never spoke much about the experience he had until he retired from his business when he was about seventy. And I discussed it at great length with him and I took him as I say back to France, down to Kew, to Runnymede, St Martin in the Fields. All the Memorials because he started to open up but he never gave much detail about the bad side of it. He mentioned the crew had been killed and he was quite matter of fact about it but that was the surface.
RG: Say now about dad’s nightmares all his life.
TG: But subconsciously we know that he, he was greatly affected by, by his experiences. You’ve got to bear in mind that he, his flying hours exceeded a thousand. A thousand hours in these, in these terrible conditions. I mean they weren’t sitting back. They were bitterly cold, frightened to death and as he often told us more ammunition was wasted on the Morning/Evening Star than shooting at other aircraft because they were quite obviously tense and wound up. But when I met him and he was in his mid-forties then occasionally if we were staying there we would hear him in the middle of the night when he was asleep.
RG: [unclear]
TG: And also at our house in later life if he was ill he would start up talking to his skipper on the radio in his sleep. In talking almost as if it was happening. These episodes of talking to the skipper and warning him about approaching aircraft or, ‘Let’s get out of here,’ didn’t last for a few minutes. They would last for hours in, in the night. Where he would, he would start off and then ten minutes later he’d had another instruction to the skipper, the pilot to warn him of approaching aircraft. And this was when Peter was seventy five or eighty years old. This was forty years later. And it was obviously imprinted on his subconscious indelibly and whilst to talk to him it didn’t affect him if he talked about it a lot at a function when he was later in life because as I say he didn’t disclose much at all of, of the worst side of things but it was obviously there underneath. And if he, if he’d been talking to you now like I’m talking to you tonight he would have been flying again. In his sleep.
RG: In the mornings he would say, ‘Oh, my goodness. I’ve been flying all night. All night.’ Right up until he was in hospital and Helen went to see him, my sister and just before he died he was still flying.
CB: So, who used to go and see him in the night?
TG: We —
RG: Me. Usually me. Or when he was with mum, mum would.
TG: Mum.
RG: Yeah. But when he, after my mum died and he would be here with us it would be me.
TG: But he was ok the next day as a rule. The one thing I noticed about him and maybe many, many other bomber crew he didn’t have any friends from those days. Like some of the army chaps. Simply because there were none left. They had all been killed. All his crew had been killed hadn’t they? I think he stayed in touch with Bob Wareing briefly.
RG: Yes.
TG: Until he died. And about [unclear]
RG: He stayed, he stayed friends with a lot of the RAF people.
TG: But they’d not flown with him.
RG: Through his association with the Royal Observer Corps and the RAF Association.
TG: And the British Legion.
RG: And the British Legion. And also he was a member of Fenland Airfield and he loved to go and spend time down there.
TG: But he never knew or could talk to anyone who flew with him.
RG: Except —
TG: On those raids.
RG: Except —
TG: Except on one occasion at the —
RG: Metheringham.
TG: Metheringham. The reunion which was held, held every year of 106 Squadron he bumped into —
RG: Well, he nearly didn’t go.
TG: He nearly didn’t go. He was very ill. Quite ill at the time and it was not that long before Pete’s death. But we took him to Metheringham, to the old airfield and he bumped into a chap and they got talking and it transpired that on the Scharnhorst raid this chap remembered it clearly and had been in another aircraft on that same raid. And he remembered some talk of Peter shooting down an enemy aircraft. But Peter, Pete always said he thought, they thought he had originally but he never claimed it was him, did he?
RG: But he, this gentleman knew the formation. He said, ‘And your pilot pulled out of formation to go in again.’ And it was just listening to these two old gentlemen who were well into their eighties talking as though they were there that present moment. But for two old age people to be there just by chance on that reunion was amazing. Terry has that on video because we’d just got a new video camera. Yeah.
TG: That’s with IBC, they’ve got the copy of that. Well, we’ve got it here.
RG: Yes.
TG: But I video’d that conversation and it’s now been —
CB: Brilliant.
RG: Yeah.
CB: So we’re really talking about 106 Squadron when they were flying Hampdens.
RG: From Metheringham Airfield.
CB: From Metheringham.
RG: This one. Yes.
TG: He’s written Coningsby but it was definitely —
CB: Metheringham.
TG: Well, it was a satellite wasn’t it?
CB: Yes.
TG: He flew from there. He met, he once, he met Gibson once or twice and knew him. He wasn’t a very popular man, was he? Gibson.
CB: No.
TG: Very officious. But it’s not on there is it? Is that switched off?
CB: Yeah. No. No. It isn’t. We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: The matter of how to speak about these things was difficult for most war veterans. Aircrew particularly. Perhaps because of the high losses. But then there’s the effect on the families. So he’s speaking in his sleep in these times.
RG: Yeah.
CB: What affect did that have on you?
RG: Well, I was mainly concerned for Dad’s well-being really and I would go and chat to him. Although he was asleep his eyes would be open and he didn’t really know I was there. But obviously he did and then he would calm and then in the morning he would say, ‘Rachel, I’ve been flying all night.’ And I would say, ‘Yes, dad. I know.’ But he’d no recollection of me being there. But it was, it was quite upsetting to hear that he was, and he was talking and as though you know he was there, ‘Skip, they’re coming in at — ’ so and so, you know, ‘Do we fire now?’ And it was just as though he was there. But obviously, you know it was affecting his mind. And right up until the minute, well not the minute but the day before he died he was still flying. Yeah. It was —
TG: He was eighty one when he died.
RG: But as a child Dad the war was not spoken to about a lot but on the days when Dad would be slightly not well I was told that I’d got to behave because he wasn’t very well. And that was the reason. But yeah. But in the night he didn’t seem to be agitated by it. It was just as though it was happening and he was coping with it.
CB: So it’s no shouting.
RG: No.
CB: It’s just a conversation.
RG: Yes. Yeah. As though —
CB: As though he’s on the intercom.
RG: Yeah.
TG: As calm as you and I now. Controlled. And so and so’s happening, Skip.
RG: Just as though they were getting on with the job.
TG: A normal tone of voice as if and then an hour later or ten minutes later he’d give an update of some sort. ‘Let’s get the bloody [pause] out of here skipper.’ And that was it.
CB: Because he was acting as a lookout.
RG: Yes.
TG: Well, yes.
RG: Yes.
TG: Oh yes.
CB: As a child though you were told that he was, it was a bad day. So what did you feel as a child when you, he had these episodes?
RG: I just took it, I just took it as, as I’ve got, behave myself. I think I was a bit of reckless child but you know I just got to behave myself and that was it [pause] But no, he was, no. Just my dad.
CB: But he was always calm in what he was doing. It was —
RG: Just turn that off a minute.
CB: Yeah. Sure.
[recording paused]
CB: So how did your mother handle this?
RG: Well, very calmly I think. Dad would on, on what I now know was his sort of bad days he would be prone to picking arguments and probably doing a bit of shouting which was quite unusual for dad because he was quite a calm person. But in, you know he would be probably be shouting at mum but I just sort of took it as I’d just got to behave myself and that would be it. But mum always, when dad was like this was always very sort of calm, and well I suppose she was talking him down a bit. But it was never mentioned why he was like it and I just thought oh well other people’s dads shout and that, you know and that was it. But as a general rule he was such a calm sort of person. Took everything in his stride really. But on these occasions that, that used to happen. Yeah.
CB: To what extent do you think over the years he had spoken to your mother about his experiences?
RG: I don’t really know. I wouldn’t. I would imagine not a lot. It was, I wouldn’t, I never overheard them talking about anything but then I wouldn’t always be there but, no it was usually, if dad spoke about anything it wasn’t how it affected him. It was usually telling a tale of what he’d been up to. What raid he’d been on and different aspects of what they, you know, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t the horrors. It was more of the good bits. You know. Tearing about on a motorbike and that sort of thing as you would expect lads of that age to be doing.
TG: And he was only twenty or so.
CB: Yeah.
TG: When all this was —
CB: Yes.
TG: You know, that was the average age of these —
CB: Sure. Oh yes. Absolutely. So she was in the Spalding area.
RG: All the time. Yes.
CB: Surrounded by Air Force. They were married in the war.
RG: Yes.
CB: She continued did she in her bar work?
RG: Yes. She was a nanny and, to a family who had four children and they kept the Greyhound. So in the day mum would be looking after the children. Helping with that sort of thing. And then she would as and when she was required she would be the bar. The bar girl. Yes. So she stayed with the family. Well, they’re godparents to me and later John one of the sons went into partnership with my dad as a nurseryman and, but mum didn’t live always at the Greyhound. She lived with her parents in Little London. And then when my sister Helen was born she, she was with nan and then mum would be continuing to work and home as normal mum’s do. Yeah.
CB: The reason I ask the question is because to some extent she was programmed to the losses and the stoic reaction of the other crews.
RG: Yes. Yes. I don’t honestly know whether it was all talked about but no doubt it would be you know mentioned. You know. Particularly the loss of all the crew. The last, last one.
TG: I’ve mentioned Tuesday and then of course she had the incident with the DFC. Your mum was disappointed.
CB: So what was that?
RG: Well, dad was awarded the DFC. And mum saved all the coupons and my nan, all the coupons for a new outfit. Coat. A new coat was, I think she had it made and, and you know all ready to go to London, to the Palace and then the king was very poorly so of course it, they couldn’t go. And the DFC was given to dad by his commanding officer over the counter more or less at East Kirkby. And it was very, very disappointing for mum not to be going on that.
CB: I can imagine. Yes.
TG: The king did write. We’ve still got the letter of course.
RG: Oh yes. We, yeah.
CB: Not the same as having it —
RG: No. But no —
CB: Conferred on you.
RG: Well, in those days where they lived, a little village. Oh, you know. Olive Hazeldene. She’s going to the Palace, you know. And a new coat was got. You know it’s just, well, it was one of those things isn’t it? The poor old king.
CB: Well, people didn’t travel much in those days so —
RG: No.
CB: It was a major —
RG: It was a big thing.
CB: Task.
RG: Yes.
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: You were, so let’s just catch up on here.
RG: Do you know, I’m really, I’m really a very strong character but when I start crying I cry for days. Mr Panton, we were talking to him, oh I forgot what I was going to say. We were talking to him one day about dad.
CB: Just to that in to context the airfield was bought by the Panton’s for their chicken farm.
RG: Yes.
CB: And then they bought what is now called, “Just Jane.”
RG: Yes. Yeah. From Scampton. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So you were saying though that before that happened.
RG: No.
CB: We used to go there.
RG: No. No.
RG: Yeah. We used to go.
TG: Go back to the beginning.
CB: Dad would just go in.
RG: We used to go there, but we never used to speak to anybody because we were like trespassers trespassing and but we used to go and just like look and that was it and you know we girls would probably play hide and seek and that would be it.
CB: On the airfield.
RG: On the airfield. Yes. And then when after dad died we got the Memorial cabinet set up. We were talking to Mr Fred Panton one day and he was saying, and I said my dad would never come in the Lancaster. And he said that they had, when they started doing the taxi runs they had this gentleman who booked himself on one of the flights as they called it. He would come early, have a bit of lunch and sit there and then he would be ready, his flight would be ready, they would call him but he just couldn’t bring himself to get on it. And he said he did it numerous times. Not just the once. Numerous times. Where he really wanted to go on the taxi run but couldn’t bring himself to. And he was, like dad had flown from there.
CB: What do you think was the origin of that reaction?
RG: I would imagine that it would be bringing back all the horrors of, of going. You know, on these raids.
CB: In your case was it your father’s reaction of the loss of the crew without him being there?
RG: He never actually said anything about it but no if I mentioned, ‘Oh, shall we go on one of those taxi runs?’ ‘No. I don’t think so Rachel.’ And that was it but he did [pause] he got a tree planted just around the corner from the mess and in memory and he had a plaque put for his crew. You carry on. Oh dear.
CB: We’ll stop a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Even though —
RG: Even though dad never actually said how he felt about his crew he did have a tree, bought a tree, a big flowering cherry, had the tree planted and he had a plaque with the all the names of his crew and why we put it there. And now we’ve got, and now we’ve got one by the side of it for dad.
CB: This is a really emotional and emotive activity and task to follow up. But taking the bombing war itself what was his attitude towards bombing in general?
RG: He just, he just, he didn’t do too much commenting on it but I got the feeling that dad was given a task to do and they just went and did it. And didn’t give a great deal, no I was going to say a great deal of thought to what they were doing but obviously they were. But they were just following orders I think. That’s, but he didn’t, dad didn’t say too much. He was a very private sort of fella. Yeah.
CB: Terry, what do you think?
TG: Well, he told me that it was a job that had to be done and he did as he was told and he kept at it. It was the only way. Bearing in mind at the time the only people that were taking the war to Germany was Bomber Command. And he, I asked him sometimes why they’d not been recognised and he just said that’s just how it was. He wasn’t, he got to the stage where he wasn’t, he wasn’t bothered that there was no particular medal for Bomber Command in the war. We all know the political sensitivities about that but that was the way it was. He had a job to do, he said and he did it to the best he could. And he said he was just very, very lucky to have survived.
CB: We talked about his DFC. His navigator also had a DFC. Doesn’t look as though the pilot had a DFC. But what was the, his 57 Squadron pilot because his 106 had two DFCs didn’t he? Wareing.
TG: I think Bob Wareing, 106 Squadron had a DFC and probably a DFC and bar. Peter eventually got his. He said he got it because he was lucky to be alive. But read the citation. Continually went into some of the worst and most heavily defended targets. Sorry. You asked me what?
CB: Yeah. I was going to say what was the reason that, given for his receiving the DFC? Because it was a particular point.
TG: It was a non-immediate award.
CB: Right.
TG: And it was I think the citation and it’s around somewhere was continued enthusiasm and leadership going in to some of the, as I say the worst defended targets repeatedly again and again and again. When he was eventually put forward for it and he received it in 1944. Yes, it was 1944.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
TG: It was, it was some years or quite a long time after I had married Rachel that he even mentioned he’d got it. It wasn’t something that was a big thing with him.
RG: As a child dad was a member of the Royal Observer Corps. He was chief, Observer Corps at the post at Maxey, and on ceremonial occasions, on marches and Remembrance Sundays the medals always came out. So he was very proud of them, but as to talk about it that would be a different matter. But on an occasion where other members of the Royal Observer Corps and the British Legion and all that he would wear them with pride. Yeah.
CB: Now, his 57 Squadron tour finished at twenty five ops for him.
TG: Yes.
CB: What did he do after that?
TG: Well, he, he, he started a third tour at Syerston. From Syerston on Lancasters. But he did a few operational tours before the war finished.
CB: Which Squadron was that?
TG: I can’t remember.
CB: It doesn’t matter. But he was on operations. Not training.
TG: No. He was on operations. We see from his logbook he made at least one or two trips to Berlin. Four or five days after Germany surrendered.
CB: Oh right.
TG: And that was the end of his operational duties but I think he stayed on for another eighteen months or so before finally leaving the RAF.
CB: What, what — how did he come to be in the Observer Corps?
RG: My Uncle Bert. He was my godfather. He was a member of the Royal Observer Corps and dad went. Followed him sort of thing. Yeah. Got the Queen’s Silver Jubilee for services to the Royal Observer Corps. And he was chief observer at the Maxey post.
CB: Which is where exactly?
TG: Just outside of Peterborough. Between Peterborough and —
RG: Yeah. Market Deeping.
TG: Until, until it was disbanded.
RG: Yes.
TG: He, he stayed ‘til the end.
RG: He did all the talks on the, you know when the bomb, what was going off. I used to go with him on those talks. We talked to all sorts of organisations. I was in charge of the slides. You know. To show them. I felt as if I knew everything about it. Yes.
TG: I did talk to him about D-Day. I asked him if he’d been on an operation leading up to D-Day and in fact as his logbook proves he was. 5 Group went and bombed on the evening of the 5th of June 1944. Maisy Grandcamp and that area there. I asked him what he thought about it and what he knew about it. When he went on that raid he had no idea it was D-Day. He didn’t know it was D-Day and neither did anybody else but the top brass. As you probably know. And he said he thought it was funny because as he flew over the Channel, he thought on his screen there was a lot of Window. The silver.
CB: Radar jamming.
TG: The radar jamming stuff that was flying around but it, they did the raid and they got back and he went back and went to bed. And then when he woke up the next morning they told him it was D-Day and what he’d seen on his screen wasn’t Window. It was the boats. It was, it was the invasion fleet going. And that was the first he knew it was D-Day because of the secrecy of everything.
CB: This was on his H2S radar.
TG: Yes.
CB: He was seeing it.
TG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
TG: But that’s, but that’s his recollection of that. But he remembered some, some raids and he’d tell me briefly about them. I think once they, shortly after D-Day they were detailed to attack Caen. The Germans there, and bomb at a certain point. But between taking off and getting this message our side, I think Canadians advanced further and I think there was quite a lot of allied troops killed by our own side in that raid. You probably know more about it than I do. Similarly we talked about the Scharnhorst earlier. That was a raid he told me that went slightly wrong. The plan had been, I think it was Poleglase was the station commander who led them in. But the plan had been for bombers to go in early at high level and get the bombs, the ships guns pointing upwards when Pete’s group would come in low and give them a good hiding. But I think the timing went wrong and they were waiting for them and hence the first three aircraft were shot out of the sky and then Wareing took that detour inland and came and got them from the other way. But these are the things that are probably not documented anywhere else.
CB: Now, the other major ship of course, capital ship was the Bismarck.
TG: Yes.
CB: So to what did he, extent did he have an involvement with that?
TG: He told us and it came to light after a chance conversation forty or fifty years later. Forty years later. With a chap in the Mail Cart pub at Spalding. But Pete told us that they knew where the Bismarck was heading but they didn’t quite know where it was as I understood it. So they went off to lay some mines in the Bay of Biscay and they were talked down as to where they should plant these mines by some of the Naval vessels. And that is what they did. And obviously a short time later the Bismarck was sunk by other means. But the chap in the, in the pub years later it transpired was on one of our Naval vessels and he was a wireless operator talking with the RAF and giving them instructions. So it was probably that Peter actually had spoken to this man before but never met him in entirely different circumstances than over a pint in the Mail Cart.
RG: Steward and Patteson’s.
TG: Yeah. So Steward and Patteson’s was a, that was another. Pete. Pete knew his beers. He knew them like no man I’ve ever met. And he could drink probably more than any man I’ve ever met [laughs] But when I first met him he used to take me to the Dun Cow at Spalding. Well at Cowbit. And he had this Steward and Patteson was one of the local brewers and Pete with his favourite pint but they used to grow barley in Norfolk for the beer, and they used to grow barley in Lincolnshire on the other side of the River Nene. And Pete could tell from the drink which side of the river the barley had been grown. Now, whether he was shooting the line.
RG: He would be.
TG: Which I’m sure he was but people believed him. So there you go. That’s, that’s the man. He was a very tall man, you know. About six foot two, wasn’t he? Very gentle. And he could speak equally to Prince Phillip or the Queen who he met a time or two.
RG: Garden parties.
TG: Or to the local drunk on his bike going past his nursery. Couldn’t he?
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
TG: Couldn’t he? He was at ease with anybody.
CB: And talking of nurseries. After the war how did he come to take up horticulture?
RG: Well, he went to work for Nell Brothers. Horticulturalists in Spalding. And he went as worker there. And then he went to Swanley Horticultural College and did a course on growing and all that sort of thing. And then he came back home. And then one of the Prestons, John Preston was of school leaving age and he thought he might like a career in horticulture. Growing type things. His father was loosely connected. And so they set up the nursery. They rented the land from Uncle Bert and they set up the business of Redmile Nurseries. John was the young lad and my dad was the expert as it were. And they worked there ‘til dad retired. You know. Quite a successful. Growing tomatoes, lettuce. The land had a bit of wheat on. They did lot of potato chitting. Cut flowers in the greenhouses. They expanded a little bit but that’s it. That’s where dad worked.
TG: He spent all his, his remainder of his working life.
RG: Yes.
TG: The Preston family that Rachel mentioned are the same ones that Olive was nanny too.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And who owned the Greyhound at Spalding.
RG: Yes.
TG: And in fact, John, his partner only died last week. He was eighty five.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Do you want to just say that again.
RG: Yeah. Dad grew all sorts of veg and things like that. Tomatoes and lettuce. But he absolutely hated tomatoes. It was quite funny really. You grow them, you know and yeah. But he hated them.
CB: What was the origin of that?
RG: I’ve absolutely no idea really but yeah. Yeah. It’s [pause] yeah.
TG: But his —
RG: But we never ate tomatoes like they do in supermarkets now. Red. They’d always got to be firm and orange and they’d always got to be of a certain size. Other things like you have beef tomatoes and things nowadays they just went on the skip. It had got to be if I can remember pink, or pink and white. That was the grade of the tomatoes.
TG: If they were red they weren’t fit to eat.
RG: No. They were thrown out. They were only for frying.
TG: But of course Rachel does the garden. That’s been inherited from her dad I think.
CB: Looks smashing.
TG: Well, your other sister is a horticulturist.
RG: Yes. Helen is horticultural.
TG: In a big way big way down in Spalding.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
TG: Yes.
CB: Stop there again.
[recording paused]
RG: And they went on their honeymoon. The Preston’s had a bungalow at Surfleet Reservoir. And mum and dad went down there. I suppose it was all the time they’d got. They went down there for the honeymoon to the bungalow at Surfleet Reservoir. It’s where the river comes in and there’s a, there’s a sluice gate before it goes out into the sea. Surfleet Reservoir. In the day it was quite a nice little place to be. Yeah, and that’s where they went on their honeymoon.
TG: About three miles from home.
RG: Yes. Well, why not?
CB: Might have got recalled.
TG: Well, yes.
RG: Well, that’s always a possibility isn’t it?
TG: That was it. But —
CB: Stop there.
[recording paused]
CB: So, did you go back to France quite often? Where the crew were buried.
TG: Rachel and, Rachel and I went on holiday in France quite often and always drive. One time when we were coming back we went to Normandy where my father fought and went to some of the cemeteries at Omaha and others. And at the time I think I managed it was sort of pre-internet days really. But I managed to find where Peter’s crew were buried from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and on the way back we travelled to Banneville and to the Commonwealth and found Tuesday Spencer and Weston Clark and Anderson. Their grave. And we came back on the Tuesday and Peter had never set foot abroad. He’d left his mark. By golly he had in France and in Germany from high, from on high and I mentioned I’d been and I didn’t know really how to put it because I didn’t know how it would affect him emotionally. And I said we’d been and found the graves and he did say, ‘I’d like to go.’ So this was on the Tuesday. On the Saturday we jumped in his Rover and I went back to France with him and we had the whale of a time. We had a whale of a time. We not only visited. We visited some hostelries there and we visited Pointe du Hoc and Omaha, and I took him to the graves and he stood beside them and he signed the book. He was very quiet but he was completely controlled and he was able to speak quite easily of them. And so he did and we’ve got photographs of the graves and Peter with them.
CB: So what did he talk about?
TG: When he was there? He would talk about Tuesday. He was, I think the closest because he didn’t know anything much about other crews and that was fairly [pause] fairly part of the course wasn’t it? He knew his own crew but Tuesday had a motor bike and he’d got a girlfriend. I think he was having trouble with this girlfriend and I think Pete used to advise him a little bit on the, on procedure and protocols and things like that. But I think he also used to take Pete to Spalding to see Olive and that sort of thing and have a few pints.
RG: Dad put in here that he socialised an awful lot with Tuesday. He had a little bit more money than dad and if they went somewhere, probably go to London and he would put them up and I think dad quite liked that idea.
TG: That happened once. They made a forced landing somewhere down south and Tuesday had the money and he put the whole crew up in a hotel in London. And Pete was quite happy to participate. He put his back in to that evening I think [laughs]. Really put his back into so, and enjoyed that wouldn’t he? But having said that and between meeting him and Tuesday dying was only eleven months or so wasn’t it? So they were, they were, they were friends but they, they must have known that, well what was going through their minds having looked around you didn’t make plans for the future necessarily.
CB: No. You said he was asked to speak to Tuesday’s parents.
TG: Yes.
CB: What did he think about that?
TG: He described it as it was, didn’t he? He, he, they wanted to speak to him and he was summoned to the office. The station commander. When he returned after ten days or so. And they really wanted to talk to him about Tuesday and how he’d found him because obviously they knew or they had been told that Pete was his best friend while he was down there. I think all he could tell them was —
RG: How it was really.
TG: How it was. And when he’d last seen him and that sort of thing. He didn’t express any emotion at all.
RG: No.
TG: To me. He never expressed any emotion. He just told it how it was and that was all his experiences. The only clue you got to the effect was as we mentioned was the night.
RG: Nightmares. Yeah.
TG: The nightmares if you like to call it that. When he was flying at night. That was the only time he, you would know that there was anything amiss. That he’d been affected. He would talk about his drink. The drinking sessions and the good times. He’d talk about not being able to remember because they’d had just to blot it out. But the middle bit. The bit where it happened he, he didn’t go into any detail other than the funny bits usually. And occasionally obviously the rear gunner being hit. But he was, he was baled out twice. Wasn’t he?
CB: So why did he have to bale out of the aircraft?
TG: I think the aircraft made it back to the UK, in England both times. I think on one occasion he landed in a field and it was foggy. And I’m sure he told me that there was somebody had reported this fellow had come out of an aircraft and a police car was, was on the road and he was the other side of the hedge. And I think they thought he was a German or something to start with because he was running down this hedge side with the police opposite until they could sort of meet up and he identified himself. He did get some shrapnel in the backside once. Didn’t he?
RG: Yes. I think mum used to have it in her sewing box. I don’t know if it’s still there [laughs]
TG: It’s probably —
RG: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think it is now. Yeah. You always, when I was a kid that, ‘Oh, no. That came out of dad’s, dad’s bottom,’ like, you know [laughs]
TG: It had gone through the seat.
RG: Yeah.
TG: Wherever he was.
RG: And when he landed in the tree I think he ripped his leg. But that’s the only injury he got. Yeah.
TG: I think he landed in Norfolk on one occasion if not both. Then struggling back.
RG: The thing is though when you’re growing up you hear, and later on you hear these things and because you’re so engrossed with living —
CB: Yeah.
RG: You don’t take it on board. And then all of a sudden when you get older and you get interested in these sorts of things you think oh, I wish I’d learned more. I wish I knew more about my granddad because he was in the First World War and he, I just knew that he was a horseman but I didn’t know whether he rode a horse. I didn’t know what he did, but he was, he looked after the horse —
TG: A blacksmith.
RG: No. He wasn’t a blacksmith. He looked after the horses that pulled the big guns. You see, I didn’t know any of that.
CB: No.
RG: You know. I didn’t. I mean, ok apart from a picture at my nan’s of him in uniform I wouldn’t have thought. It wasn’t until later on that I’ve got some spoons and knives and things in there stamped with numbers. And they are my granddads and my great uncle’s that they took to the war with them.
TG: They’d be stamped and issued to them, wouldn’t they?
RG: With their, with their service numbers.
CB: No.
RG: I didn’t know. You know, I didn’t know any of that.
CB: No.
RG: And then of course when you get interested it’s too late because everybody’s gone then. Isn’t it?
TG: You see, we’d been across there a lot. Both to the Normandy and to Ypres and the Somme. I nearly lived there. Certainly, if you look behind you when you’re upstairs you’ll see books. I’ve got the 57 Squadron book. The, “57 Squadron at War,” which is very difficult to get a hold of now. I’ve got it. I’ve got it upstairs there but, when I go around to some of these places I mean I often go or used to go to Sleaford and one other, and Norfolk where they’re doing all these re-enactments and you think gosh these are really, because I’m really into these things as you probably gathered. And I start talking to these and they’re all dressed and they, when you actually talk to them they know very little. They want to get dressed up and do battle. They’ve never been to Normandy. They’ve never been to those. They don’t know about, they just want to get dressed up and look you know. They don’t get into it.
CB: They’re actors.
RG: Yes.
TG: Yes. But they’re just enthusiast who want to get dressed up and think it’s fun.
RG: I went.
TG: It annoys me. That they should go and look at those cemeteries, you know. And they’ve never been. I said, ‘What do you think to Omaha?’ ‘What are you talking about?’ ‘Omaha.’ You know. Or, or, or Tyne Cot, or Passchendaele or some of these, you know.
RG: I challenged one at Metheringham Open Day one day. He was there and he had DFC things on, you know.
TG: He was dressed up.
RG: He was an officer and he’d got the DFC. You know, the ribbons.
TG: He was a postman. He’d never been in a —
RG: I said to him, ‘Oh, you’ve got, I see you’ve got a DFC there,’ you know. He did not know what I was talking about. I said, ‘That, that ribbon there. That’s a DFC.’ ‘Is it?’
TG: Yeah.
RG: And I thought, what are we doing here? You know. Yeah.
TG: If they’re going to do that they want to know more than I do.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And my dad was there and he, you know he was reported killed, missing in action to my mum on the 18th of June 1944. Fortunately, in the same post she got a letter from him. He was in Carlisle Hospital with a great lump of shrapnel in him. At Ranville, at Ranville, just up from, from Pegasus Bridge. He’d been smashed up. But as I say after three or four months he was fit enough to go back. That’s where he got this.
RG: I don’t know.
TG: He lived ‘til he was ninety six my father. Red beret and airborne.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And all this sort of thing.
RG: Before he died it was the, was it the seventieth anniversary or something. VE. VE Day.
TG: The week before he died.
RG: Yeah.
TG: My dad was in a home here. My mum died a few years before. And he managed to reach the seventieth anniversary of D-Day.
RG: Yeah. And at the home they did a big, a big thing. It was a Care Centre there. And they did a meal and everything like that.
TG: They got him dressed up with his medals.
RG: And he went and it was, it was a good day. He wasn’t quite sure where he was.
TG: It was his last Friday or Saturday on earth.
RG: Yeah, but he, yeah it was —
TG: He died the following Thursday.
RG: But he’d got his red beret on. And he’d got his medals up and he’d got the photograph sat on his knee all day. Clutched. Of him when he was a young man.
TG: A young man in uniform.
RG: And that. Yeah.
TG: And you couldn’t get it off him.
RG: No.
TG: He had it like this.
RG: He clutched it all day.
TG: He died the following Thursday.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Oh right.
TG: Two years, three ago.
RG: Yeah.
TG: Two and a half years ago now.
RG: But, you know a lot, a lot of people don’t know what you’re talking about when you say these things.
CB: They don’t. No.
RG: No.
TG: No.
RG: I mean, this film I haven’t been to see it. Terry went with some lads in the family.
TG: I went to see “Dunkirk.”
RG: Dunkirk. And I listened to a report on the radio and they, was it the radio? No. Wireless. Whatever you call it, you know. And they said that it’s been made because a lot of people don’t know what they’re talking about.
TG: They don’t know the difference between Dunkirk and D-Day.
RG: And people when they were interviewed them, and they said, ‘Do you know about Dunkirk?’ ‘No.’ You know. And I think to myself, oh dear. It is a shame.
TG: But they don’t know why they’re here.
RG: No.
TG: We, I’m ashamed to say that one of our friends we used to go to France and Germany a lot. Just jump in the car and book a ferry and go down the Moselle or whatever. Last time we went to Lille and Bruges. We ended up right on the coast at Dunkirk waiting for a ferry, I think we came back from Dunkirk.
RG: Oh, I can’t remember.
TG: But we came to the very end where there’s still some guns there. I don’t know if you’ve been on that coast. There’s still some German guns there. And Sheila, who is just a few months older than you and we’re talking Dunkirk and she said, she turned and said to me, ‘Is this where they all came up on to the beaches then? And the invasion.’ And I think, they weren’t going that way. I mean she’s seventy. I mean, I just think how can you go through life —
RG: Yeah, but don’t you think though like I’ve —
TG: Without knowing that it happened hundreds of miles away. D-Day. And they were coming — we were going up there.
RG: But I’ve grown up with Lancaster bombers. I’ve grown up with them, you know. And my girls they’ve grown up with them as well through granddad. And this is how we’ve been. And all, aircraft in the sky, ‘Oh look. There goes the Dakota,’ or whatever. I’ve grown up like that. But a lot of people just don’t know what you’re talking about. I know a few years ago I was at work and it was, it was a nice day and we were in the canteen and we’d got the windows open. And we sat there having coffee and I said, ‘Oh, listen. Oh, there goes the Lancaster.’ No one looked. They looked gone out at me as if I was speaking a foreign language. I said, ‘Listen. Can’t you hear the engines?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘It’s a bomber. It’s going over.’ ‘What are you talking about Rachel?’ I said, ‘It’s the Lancaster.’ I said, ‘It’ll be going back to Coningsby and do its circuit around the Cathedral.’ And they had no idea what I was talking about. Now, that is sad isn’t it? Yeah.
TG: The other thing your dad didn’t like to see and it must have affected him. I sometimes wonder about why he said it, is every time he saw an old airfield in Lincolnshire and he saw the control tower standing derelict he would say, ‘I wish they would pull them down.’ He said, ‘I wish they’d pull them all down.’ I think it was a reminder. He didn’t, he didn’t like to see them. Did he?
RG: No. Not derelict anyway. No.
TG: I mean, I didn’t know —
RG: He was ok at East Kirkby. You know, because it’s all been restored.
CB: It’s restored. Yeah.
RG: Yeah. But he always went to East Kirkby just for a ride. You know, ‘I’m just going to ride.’ Woodhall Spa. East Kirkby. That way on. But yeah. There we go.
CB: Just going back to the, your parents in the war people took very different views as to whether they should marry or not. So why was it that your parents married essentially in the middle of the war?
RG: Just turn that off a minute.
[recording paused]
RG: Wouldn’t like to hear that. She, you know. Why mum and dad got married in the war. I think they, you know had a good relationship. Romance blossomed and I think the idea was well, why shouldn’t we get married? You know. In those days it was the way forward regardless of how long they had got together. I don’t think that entered into it. So, yes. They, they married. Yes.
CB: And we talked about their links and because they were physically not next to each other while the flying —
RG: Yes.
CB: Was going on. So that covers that matter. Thank you.
RG: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So, Terry. On your case.
TG: My dad was in the army and he was on the beaches at D-Day and wounded just after. But they married in 1941 and my dad was on a few days leave and they had a special licence. They decided to get married on the Wednesday night and the ceremony took place at the church on the Saturday. And everything was pretty quick in those days although I was three or four years coming along and the eldest of five brothers. They caught up for it later on, didn’t they? But he survived the war. My father.
RG: And they were married for nearly seventy years.
TG: Nearly seventy years.
CB: You had a long and auspicious career in the police force and to what extent did you come across policemen who’d been in the war and did they talk about it?
TG: Well, only early on did I come across it and only for a short period because the chaps on the patrol car with me were much, much older and had served.
RG: Lofty had, hadn’t he?
TG: There was one chap who was, I remember distinctly. Never had a cigarette out of his hand. And he’d been on the Northwest Frontier, was it? As a stretcher bearer and drummer boy. And he told me a few tales.
CB: In India.
TG: Sorry? In India. Yes.
CB: In India. Yes.
TG: And his skin was still leathery. They called him Lofty. A wonderful character. But he didn’t go too much into, into his experiences and I didn’t see many others who were old enough.
RG: And Vic’s dad. Was he in the war?
TG: Yes, but he didn’t serve with —
RG: No. No.
TG: Vic’s dad. No. I met one or two people. One chap had been, he’d worked in an office in Lincoln and he was, you’d call him an insignificant little chap and he wasn’t very noisy. He kept quiet but when he spoke everybody listened because he’d been on the, in the Navy, I think the Merchant Navy and been torpedoed twice and survived. That sort of thing. I think Alf Dixon who was the office man at Spalding when I joined had been torpedoed in, in the Navy. But I was only nineteen when I joined. And I mean I had school masters who had been, all of them had been in the war. One had lost his leg. The deputy headmaster. That’s a thing.
CB: And what about the felons that you dealt with? Had any of those been guided by the forces originally?
TG: No. No. They, young as I was most of them and they just jumped on to the one side of the fence while I’d fallen on the other at the time. I was on the law enforcement side. But no it didn’t.
CB: So, going back to the war itself you talked about the experience of one of the crewmen and being [pause] we were talking about, touching on LMF.
TG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So, what was that dimension as far as Pete was concerned? What his knowledge.
TG: The man was out of control. He said he was. He just had him, you know he was shell shocked was probably —
RG: Flak happy.
TG: Flak happy was, was the word. He’d gone flak happy. Completely flak happy and gone berserk on the aircraft. Endangering it. As I said, Pete said he hit him with a ammo box and knocked him out. And then he was charged. Probably court martialled. I don’t know for LMF. In these days you’d have probably got a handsome sum in compensation for all the stress he’d been put through. But that’s as far as it went. I don’t think Pete came across it. Or if he did he didn’t mention anything about that at all. Even if he was stressed. I mean obviously what he said they were terribly stressed. You wouldn’t go out and get blind drunk to forget what you’d just seen, done and been through like they did. It was the only release they had. The only release. They above all went from relative safety to the most terrible danger in a very short time. Whereas no other arm, arm of the armed forces experienced that, did they? They were, either they were out there fighting at a fairly consistent level, I know it went up and down but the bomber crews and I suppose the fighter pilots as well went from sitting at home in a pub in England or with a girlfriend and hours later being subject to the most horrendous barrage and being attacked from above and below. And it was a huge contrast for them.
RG: And the frequency of the flying and the raids. If you look at dad’s logbook it sort of says you know, he’s made up the logbook and its flying such and such and where they’ve gone. Good long way away. Then they’re back. And then it’s not five minutes or so before they’re off again, you know. And they would be going at 9 o’clock and 10 o’clock at night. Flying. Night flying. Coming back. Then afternoons. And there wasn’t a good long rest period in the middle so they, they would be tired out, you know. Head wise as well as body. Physical. Yeah.
TG: Sometimes a crew would be lost and of course their uniforms would, and everything they’d left in their billet was moved and their beds made up for the next crew to replace them. The next crew would come. And then before they went to bed they’d probably gone on a raid and be lost and they’d never use the beds that were made up for them. I mean. As you know. This was the —
RG: I don’t think modern society can understand what a lot of they had to put up with that and go through really. I know there’s different things. Different aspects now. But they just had to get on with it in those days. Well, from what I can understand.
CB: You touched on a point indirectly which is that the socialising of the crew and in this particular case Tuesday’s crew was mixed airmen of sergeants and officers.
TG: And, and —
CB: So, how did that work?
TG: There was I think there was pretty well classless. I think those, those divisions were not, Peter never, Pete never mentioned anything of that nature. The only thing he objected to was when they were marched off at gunpoint by the Americans at this base and they were all put in the sergeant’s mess when he said he should have been in the officer’s mess. But they were questioned and all sorts. That’s the only time he ever, but I think he had taken umbridge at the Americans attitude rather than anything else because Pete had no thoughts for what anybody’s background was. He’d treat everybody the same.
RG: No. Absolutely.
TG: Whether he was a prince or a pauper. Quite literally. And he spoke to all people from all of those classes and you could be with him and he could hold a conversation with anybody from any background but he never ever —
RG: Never judged anybody.
TG: He never judged anybody.
RG: No.
TG: And he never sort of said, ‘I’ve got the DFC,’ and everything. He never got, it never got entered into conversation.
RG: He was just a nice chap.
TG: He was just a nice sociable chap who liked a pint after a hard days work at the nursery. And sometimes in later life he’d go down to the Mail Cart on the bus wouldn’t he because of the road safety. But one of the funny things I’ll tell you about Pete when I was first was going out with Rachel. I think I was first married.
RG: I think we were married.
TG: I think we were married. And Pete and your, and Harold.
RG: And his friend George Samsby.
TG: And George Samsby.
RG: And some, one other.
TG: They were a right drinking group.
RG: Oh dear.
TG: And they all used to go to the Dun Cow at Cowbit. Now, me and my mate who was quite a lot older than me were in a patrol car one night and it was about one in the morning coming back into Spalding along Cowbit Bank. And I could see some of the cars outside the well-lit pub because closing time was about ten thirty and this was 1am. The lights are still on. There were a few cars outside amongst which was your dad’s.
RG: Harold’s.
TG: Your brother in law’s and George Samsby’s and my co-driver, he said, ‘Look at that pub. Let’s go and raid it.’ I, I was appalled that these, you know, he says, ‘They’re all drinking.’ So I said, ‘I’m sorry, Brian. I can’t Brian, I can’t.’ He said, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘Because I’m at court in the morning. If I get tied up with that lot I’m going to be here ‘til 4 or 5 o’clock.’ I didn’t mention whose cars they were because I could see it in the paper that, “PC arrests whole family illegally drinking.”
RG: Oh dear [laughs]
TG: Dear me. In the local pub. And I could imagine quite a rift, you know and I’d have to go and give evidence against him and then bail him out.
RG: Oh dear.
TG: But he was wonderful company. He was wonderful. He were wonderful company your dad was. Wasn’t he? He was. He used to work like anything. But when they used to be at Maxey they used to get an allowance to cut the grass at the Royal Observer Corps Post. To pay somebody to do it. Well, they didn’t. They kept the money and cut it themselves. So every year they had a right old booze up and a dinner to which we went with the money for the grass cutting. Resourceful to the last. Wasn’t he? Yes.
RG: He used to have these, you know exercises and they’d you know pretend that there was going to be a —
TG: Nuclear war.
RG: Nuclear war, you know. And away dad would go there. And the first thing that went down into the post as they called it was the beer laughs] It went down, you know. The beer.
TG: That was because they were underground weren’t they?
RG: Yeah.
CB: They wouldn’t want to get it contaminated by radiation would they?
RG: Absolutely not.
TG: It didn’t matter about anything else but they’d be locked down there for a few days, wouldn’t they?
RG: Yes.
TG: With the luncheon, didn’t they? The luncheon meat and —
RG: I felt as though I knew everything about the Royal Observer Corps.
CB: What would you think Pete would have said was his most memorable experience in the war?
RG: Golly. That is a question. In the war.
TG: Well, only the things that he’d mentioned really because he didn’t go into that much detail. He mentioned the Scharnhorst thing because they lost those aircraft and they put it out of action for about a month. The loss of his crew, and those things we’ve already highlighted.
RG: I think he would probably have said it would be his mother in law’s cooked breakfast because when he was at home on leave nan, my nan would always make sure that he got the eggs and he got the bacon and had a good, you know a good breakfast. But I can’t think of anything on the raid side or operations that dad would talk about more than another.
TG: He just, he just did it.
RG: Yeah. I think the loss of his crew. He talked about that a bit but, yeah. No.
TG: It was a, it was a period in his life that —
RG: He just did.
TG: They did. And when it was over he wanted to put it behind him.
CB: Yes.
TG: And what he did subsequently was in complete and utter contrast. Wasn’t it? Growing plants and, and selling them. It wasn’t a noisy machine driven —
CB: Destructive force.
TG: Destructive force. It was a constructive effort.
RG: But all his hobbies and things were RAF connected. Yeah.
TG: They —
RG: Yeah. He had a great love of flying and things.
TG: He liked, liked flying. As I say. The Holbeach Club and his wireless op. His amateur radio and obviously the ROC, RAFA and all this sort of thing.
RG: My sister. My younger sister. She —
TG: There are three of them.
RG: Three of us.
TG: We’ll not mention Jane.
RG: Jane. She lived in Bath and she’d just bought this house and they were having it converted. Fantastic place it was and she wanted dad to see it. Now, dad was a very, very sick man and she wanted us to go. And I said, ‘Dad won’t survive a road trip or a train trip.’
TG: He had a heart attack when he was about seventy eight, so.
RG: Yeah. I said, ‘Dad won’t survive that, Jane. It’ll just absolutely knock him out.’ So she chartered a helicopter to come and fetch us.
TG: [unclear] anyway.
RG: Yeah. But dad was absolutely in his element. He, we set of from Fenland Airfield. Right. You know. Little Fen.
TG: In this helicopter.
RG: All his mates were watching him and this chappy in the uniform and off we went.
TG: To Bath.
RG: Terry and I went to Bath.
TG: With your dad.
RG: Yeah. With dad. And dad sat in the front like this. And as we got, we went over where Prince Charles lives. Highgrove, and that. And when we got —
TG: Highgrove. Yes.
RG: When we got near somewhere or other there was two Hercules in the sky. Now, helicopters fly quite low.
TG: It was over the —
CB: This is Lyneham.
TG: No.
RG: No.
TG: No. The one that was closest.
RG: No.
TG: Fairford.
RG: Where the —
TG: Fairford. It was closed at the time.
CB: Because —
RG: Yeah. Because they were converting for the —
CB: Americans. Yes.
RG: Yeah. Two helicopters, two Hercules were coming like this and we’d got, we were all sat in the back. Got these headsets on and I said, ‘Oh, oh look at those Hercules across there. Look at those.’ You know. We were coming like this. These two Hercules were coming like that. And I thought to myself I don’t know but we’re just a little bit too close to those. So I said to the pilot about these. I said, ‘Oh they’re a bit close to us, aren’t they?’ He went, ‘Silence in the cabin.’ Closed me. So then he kept saying to the radar people and whatever.
CB: Control room. Yes.
RG: Yeah. Control room. He kept saying such and such, ‘This is Echo Tango Lima 546,’ or whatever we were, ‘We are a Jet Ranger. We have five people on board. We are flying from Fenland Airfield in Lincolnshire to a private landing spot in Bath. We are a Jet Ranger. We have five — ’ And I kept thinking and I kept thinking, I kept thinking you keep telling them. And he kept saying it, repeating and the control place said you are de, de, de, der like this. And he kept saying and, ‘Yes. We are a Jet Ranger.’ And he kept repeating it. ‘We are a Jet Ranger.’ And then the call sign like that. I thought, yes you tell them who we are because when we hit there’s not going to be anything left of our Jet Ranger. And then all of a sudden this voice said whatever the call sign. ‘You are a Jet Ranger. You are flying — ’ you know repeated everything. He said, ‘Yes. We are.’ And the next minute our little helicopter, well it wasn’t a little one, we went down like this. We went right down like that. I thought I don’t like this, we’re going down, and these Hercules literally went over the top. And when we got calmed down the captain said, ‘Phew.’ And what it was the call sign of us was very similar to one of those Hercules and they’d got us muddled up.
CB: Oh.
RG: But do you know dad sat in the front and dad said something, ‘Well, Skip. That was a good, good shout.’ Or something like that.
TG: Good show.
RG: Good show. Yeah. And the fella said, ‘I bet you’ve had more experiences than that one.’ And dad said, ‘Yeah. But not as exciting,’ or something like that. But oh dear. But, yeah.
CB: Crikey.
RG: Dad was laid up for quite a few weeks after that one. Oh, you haven’t been recording me have you?
[recording paused]
RG: And he obviously had —
CB: So Terry I just want to go back to what talked about the parents of Tuesday coming down to see Pete. What do you think they were looking for?
TG: Well, Durham is a couple of hundred miles away from East Kirkby at least. And travel wouldn’t be very easy at that time. And they were there waiting for Peter when he returned from his, his short period of rest. Expressly having requested to see him. And there must have been a terrible gap in their yearning to find out more about their son in his last days and to speak to his closest friend of that time. His drinking mate. His flying mate. And Pete was able to fill them in. How they were. What his attitude was. What his spirits were like. Right up until the last time he saw him which was obviously some time after his own parents. The fact that they went out to dinner with Pete when they were down there, the fact that the station commander had accepted them on to the base because it wouldn’t be easy for civilians to get on there at that time must have been a great —
RG: And the five pounds.
TG: Must have been a great comfort to them. And having then travelled home. Probably having had to stay down in Lincolnshire for a day or two. To post him the five pounds in recognition of both the comfort he’d brought to them and also for his recent commission, Pete’s commission, clearly shows to me that the effort that they put in the, that it’s the terrible desire to fill in the gaps in their son’s life as much as they could was for closure.
RG: And dad had done it.
TG: And Pete had fulfilled that and filled that gap as much as he possibly could. He brought them closure. And hopefully they went away, well clearly were much happier than they had have been. But to have lost him without any of this detail would have, they would have always wondered. And it wouldn’t have been an easy journey for them to make because they didn’t know what they were going to hear really.
[recording paused]
CB: So what did he particularly appreciate when he was on his trips?
TG: Coming home. He said, he said that often coming home particularly coming home they’d waste a huge amount of ammunition shooting at the Morning or the Evening Star. Whichever time of day Venus was up. When they were very tense and they thought maybe there were fighters waiting for them to land. But one of the loveliest sights he said was the landscape below. England was always greener and he knew he was in England just from the colour, the density of the green rather than on the continent. He didn’t look out for the Cathedral as, as a lot of crews did. Boston Stump was the, was, was more visible than the Cathedral when they came home.
CB: The Lincoln Cathedral.
TG: Than Lincoln Cathedral. But he particularly loved the greenery. That’s more than anything else he loved to see the green green grass of home as they say. And it was greener than over the water.
CB: Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: I want to take you both together.
RG: Oh dear.
CB: And where shall we do it because it’s nice here. Or we can for it outside?
TG: You can do it outside. Or wherever you like.
RG: Yeah. Do it where you like.
CB: Well, we just have the picture with you.
RG: Yeah.
CB: Just hold it between you. It’ll be nice to do it outside wouldn’t it?
RG: I’ll put a bit of lipstick on I think.
TG: She’s got to do her hair.
CB: That’s good. Let me in the meantime just write my email address on there.
TG: I’ll try and send you three and four at a time. Or whatever.
CB: Whatever. Yeah.
TG: Yeah. I’ll just get my shoes on.
CB: Ok.
[pause]
RG: Yes. It would be quite appropriate to be in our garden.
CB: Well, I think so.
RG: Dad and I spent an awful lot of time on it.
CB: Did you? Yes. I think it looks super. Well, I’m looking to move. To downsize my house.
RG: Oh yes. I don’t —
CB: Thank you.
RG: What was I going to say? I think we ought to downsize.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Rachel and John Gill
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGillRA-JT170930
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Pending review
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01:38:47 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
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Peter Hazeldene joined the RAF from Wales when he saw a poster to see the world from a different perspective. He trained as a wireless operator and during training suspected a couple of incidents of sabotage on the base. Peter was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Finningley. On a mining operation they were hit by anti-aircraft fire. It was only when they returned to base they realised the rear gunner was dead and his turret was awash with blood. On another occasion the flight engineer apparently went berserk and Peter had to subdue him by hitting him with an ammunition box. After his first tour of operations Peter was seconded to the Americans at Polebrook as an instructor. He then was posted to RAF East Kirkby with 57 Squadron. While he was on leave he returned to find his crew were dead or missing. The parents of his pilot travelled to East Kirkby to meet him and come to terms with the death of their son. He started a third tour at RAF Syerston and completed several operations before the war ended. After the stress of operations Peter suffered terrible flashbacks and nightmares for the rest of his life.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
106 Squadron
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-17
bale out
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
final resting place
Gneisenau
H2S
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
heirloom
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
mine laying
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Cranwell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Finningley
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Metheringham
RAF Polebrook
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF West Freugh
RAF Wigsley
Royal Observer Corps
Scharnhorst
Stirling
take-off crash
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/840/10832/AGouldWP180619.2.mp3
03e6c6b88b0419886cb537eb12bf4e07
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Title
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Gould, William Paul
W P Gould
Description
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An oral history interview with William Paul Gould (b. 1925, 1818674 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 622 Squadron).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gould, WP
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DH: Right. Ok. The numbers are turning over now so I apologise, we’re going to start again.
WG: All again.
DH: All again. But at least we haven’t got very far. Right. Because I’ve just, I thought the numbers aren’t ticking over. Right. Ok. Right. Ok. Right. From the top then. Here we go. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Dawn Hughes, the interviewee is Mr William Gould. The interview is taking place at Mr Gould’s Home in Telford, Shropshire on the 19th June 2018. Thank you, Bill, for agreeing to talk to me today. Ok. First of all can I ask you again about the lead up to the war and how you came to join the RAF?
WG: Well, I, obviously I was at school before the war and my interest in flying was started probably when I was around about the age of seven or eight and I made little gliders to start with and, with balsa wood and little bits of well sticks for lighting the fire were carved down to make bits of planes and models of course. And I suppose I was influenced to a great degree by people like Amy Johnson to go and fly to Australia and —
DH: Wow.
WG: But there were an awful lot of difficulties that she got over. She was, she were really, was bitten by, by flight I think. Anyway, from there of course you leave school and eventually you start work. The war came before I left school and I started at a local motor engineer’s at Stafford. So I got on the train every morning down from Stoke Station down to Stafford. Then it was the same ride back to go to the Technical College which is right by the station. And again I got interested there in, in other people’s model making but the old urges were still there, you know. You don’t lose it. As I said, I joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps at the Grammar School. We were the first ones in Stoke on Trent to have that. The other school, High School had the Army Cadets. I don’t think we had a Naval version in those days. Anyway, it was from, from that we learned all about flight and air movement. Practical so far as the construction of aircraft are concerned but not of engines. And then of course I had a friend who was with me in the Air Defence Cadet Corps and we were I suppose sixteen and quite a bit and decided we’d go along to the Recruiting Office and volunteer for the Royal Air Force. Of course, they had a bit of a laugh when they found out we were still sixteen but we didn’t expect to go straight away. Next week perhaps [laughs] Eventually they, they sent for us to go down to Birmingham for a bit of an interview and medical and then we were virtually a little selection as to what type of job we were expected to be proficient at in the Air Force and my friend got flight engineer straight off. I was unfortunate. They shipped me in as a wireless operator/air gunner. Now, I, I had a little difficulty with the Morse Code in the Air Defence Cadet Corps but they didn’t take any notice of that. They wanted wireless operator/air gunners so you were in. I eventually survived to get out of that and remuster to flight engineer. They took me, took me down to Eastchurch on the Isle of Sheppey. Anyway, so I remustered there and went then from there to Locking in [pause] just south of Bristol and started the [pause] what is the first step from ITW? Training for a flight engineer. And then it was the next posting was the little bit further up the line to go to St Athan, South Wales to really get down from the, well the nitty gritty of being a flight engineer and we actually had aircraft to play about with [laughs] From there of course eventually you pass out and it was seven days leave and report back to a flying station. And we’d no, no crewing up there but we did a bit more ground training and one or two of us were lucky we got off the deck a few times. And then I got posted to Initial Flying Training Wing and initially at Bottesford, Lincolnshire and it was there that I was crewed up to a crew who had already been together for a considerable time. My skipper was an Aussie. He was thirty four and I gathered that he really did want to be thirty five which I thought was a pretty good thing really. So, we got a skipper that was from Australia. We got a navigator from Clitheroe, Lancashire. We got the bomb aimer from, well the first one was from London but he had problems. He was airsick most of the time. We’d only got to get the wheels of the ground and he was violently sick so he was stood down, and we had another bomb aimer that joined us. As a rookie he’d just come from Canada having done his bomb aimer’s course in Canada and a part of a pilot’s training course as well. The wireless operator again after a little bit of a hick-up with the crew. Again, another one that was not as well as he thought he was so he was, he was stood down in favour of a laddie to finish his tour off because he’d, he’d flown on Blenheims. First of all in the United Kingdom and then he was posted out to India and on his way back from India he was on operations in North Africa when the push, a push was on. And then he came to, back to the UK to eventually find himself at Bottesford and we, he crewed up with us and he was very, very good. He really, he was a laid back airman. Really laid back. He had a motorbike and his girlfriend was in the Land Army and he used to leave the camp on the motorbike and go and see his girlfriend and of course you need petrol. He was very adept at finding out where the local Army bases were. Always the Army. Never the, never pick on your own Force and he used to go in to their camps, find out where the petrol depot was and just arrive and get them to fill him up with petrol and then he’d sign for it and off he’d go.
DH: Cheeky.
WG: He was. He was a W/O by this time. Of course, he’d done an awful lot of service, and he was a warrant officer so whether they thought the very smart uniform that he’d got was extra special I don’t know but they certainly served him with the petrol. He didn’t always use the same base but he, invariably he did. He was the most laid back person I’ve ever met. We, we, had a lot of fun after the war. I did manage to get his name and address and I went out with his wife to France with the Blenheim Society and we went to their, their old base which was a place called [Virieux] in the Champagne country. Oh, the Royal Air Force certainly picked some very nice places. It’s a pity we couldn’t have defended it a bit better but it was a very nice spot and a very hospitable local community. We had some lovely times going out to [Virieux] as the Blenheim Society. Yeah.
DH: The squadron that you were put on to. That was 622 Squadron.
WG: 622.
DH: Yeah.
WG: 622, that I eventually went to from Bottesford. But before we left Bottesford and we were in the, it was not good weather whilst we were there, and I used to pass it regularly after the war because I used to go up to Grantham every weekend and, working. And from Stoke on Trent you go straight past or straight through the village and the village is on reasonably level ground but there is a mound of which the railway put a line across the top of it and then at the beginning, virtually at the beginning of the village there’s a very nice church with a spire. It had three red warning lights on the top so that, you know you could really see it because it just pipped the top of the embankment from the railway and it was just to the right of the line that was the main runway. So when you were going on the runway at night you got the red beacons on the top of the steeple. Well, one night we took off and how we, just how much clear it was of the top I don’t know but I’m certain that had there been a train on the line we would have knocked it off. Or they would have knocked us off actually because we, we hadn’t got enough airspeed and anyway I looked up at those three red warning lights. I can remember it now so well [laughs] And then we were posted. I think they thought they’d get rid of us before we did some real damage.
DH: Yeah.
WG: Anyway, we were put on the train to the station near to the Mildenhall camp and then the lorry fetched us two. My rear gunner was from America. The USA. His residence was in New York. His father worked for the Underground. Yeah. And my mid-upper gunner was from Lowestoft, and the son of a butcher so they had a butcher’s, family butcher’s business in, in Lowestoft. And he was, he was quite laid back. We got a guy out of the armoury on one occasion, and he decided that we’d, he had a car and he decided we’d have a little bit of shooting practice. He did the shooting. We drove along the country lanes and if a pheasant or a partridge or a rabbit or whatever showed its face well it was as good as dead. And then he tried with, he tried with the proprietor at the Bird in Hand which is right by the aerodrome [laughs] he tried to get him to do the bit of culinary work. And then he found out that, ‘Where did you get these, this game from?’ You see. And he happened to be one of the members of the local Shooting Society. So anyway he got around that one. Talked his way out of the pot. Anyway, I had, we had a very lucky tour. One of my early trips was to, dropping mines. And we seemed to do an awful lot of mine dropping. Usually briefed by the Royal Navy who did the fusing. Especially when they were after something particular, they’d set these things up just to put the right vessel. We had, we had a very lucky tour really. No, no nasty things. We got peppered a few times but they soon put a patch on [laughs]
DH: What was the Lancaster like to fly in? What was the Lancaster like as an aircraft to fly in?
WG: Oh, wonderful.
DH: Yeah.
WG: Wonderful. It was an aircraft with no, to me with no vices.
DH: Oh.
WG: You could do things with it that with a lot of aircraft you’d be in trouble if not serious trouble with. But they seemed to say look have another go because you didn’t quite get it right, you know. Yeah. It was a wonderful, wonderful aircraft.
DH: So on an operation as flight engineer what, what, because some of them would last anything up to eight hours wouldn’t they? So what would you do during that time? Can you just describe that?
WG: The brief time in between.
DH: The time in between take off and —
WG: Oh.
DH: Actually dropping the bombs and then coming back.
WG: Well, most of my, most of, if it was a night attack you were on your own. And it’s just a matter of really speaking once you’ve taken off you do two things. You’re keeping a check on your own petrol consumption particularly, the state of your engines and if anything else was untoward. As did happen on the odd occasion and you had to do a little bit of, ferret around to see where things weren’t quite what they should be. But mainly it was a matter of keeping your eyes open and making certain that if there was anybody about it was a friendly one and not too close. I saw the first, my first experience was over Belgium with the V-2s. I mean you suddenly saw a vapour trail go right in front of you. Just a little bit disconcerting.
DH: God.
WG: It was just a massive, well, you’ve seen the rockets go off and it’s just that massive vapour trail. We were up at about twenty thousand feet and this thing suddenly passes you.
DH: When you were dropping the mines, the ones that the Navy —
WG: Yes.
DH: So can you describe what the targets were?
WG: Well, the targets are just a landmark or a sea mark.
DH: Right.
WG: It’s just pure straightforward navigation, and you studied your maps before and you knew what little nooks and crannies you were looking for to drop these things on the shipping lane. It’s mainly stuff coming out of Kiel but you know warships that we were after.
DH: Yeah.
WG: But we did drop them way up to the Skag, to get to iron ore vessels I think they were. We were never told. We were just given a location and fortunately we dropped them on the locations but with, when the Navy had briefed you or at least they’d done the setting up of the mines they would come back and tell you that yes you were successful, you know.
DH: That’s good.
WG: We had that. Yeah, oh yes. We got what we were after.
DH: So did you, can I ask what the date was when you joined 622 Squadron? What, what year and month? Doesn’t have to be exact.
WG: Oh, it had to, it does seem funny saying nineteen doesn’t it?
DH: I know.
WG: Yes. You were on to [pause] Yes, 1944 local flying. Yes. When the, I’ve got two here. One is a local familiarisation. That’s, you know you just arrived at the place and you want to know where everything is round you. That was on the 17th of December. On the 17th again we did a cross country. That would be in the, in the evening. And then a fighter affiliation. And then we did an ops on Trier. This is when the, we, we had the Battle of the Bulge. When they were fetching all their equipment through the railway yards at Trier. So we were called in to bomb. Bomb Trier, yeah.
DH: So, that was bombing, that was the Germans at Trier.
WG: The Germans at Trier.
DH: Yeah.
WG: Yes. And then the 24th of December we’re coming up to a very interesting time at Christmas. And we did another one on the airfields at Bonn. That was quite peaceful and we were diverted on the return because of fog and we landed at a little place with beautiful aircraft, Mosquitoes. And that was at Little Snoring, which if you look it up on the map you’ll find it’s, well north of Norfolk. And we landed there and of course the Air Force being what it is, trying to look after you properly and take care of Christmas Day we were, we were at Little Snoring you see and we couldn’t take off because of fog at one end or the other. If we were clear Mildenhall had got fog. When they were clear we’d got fog. So we were there from the 24th until the 29th, 28th when we flew back. But they came and picked us up with five others and brought us back to have Christmas dinner [laughs] Lovely. Lovely. Yeah. And then we, again we did a night. A night. A night job on Koblenz and we dropped that with instruments, on Gee. Yeah. And we, we virtually jettisoned the load. In fact, it was just dropped. It was not put on to a pinpoint target. It was just get rid of them because we’ve got problems with the Gee. GH equipment.
DH: Can you explain that a bit more?
WG: Well, it’s instrumentation that put you in the right place and it gave you a marker that you’d got to drop the bombs, you know. And with a bit of luck they all went down in the right spot. Nothing really untoward. It’s just the fact that the equipment we’d got was not fully serviceable and we had to jettison. We were a little more fortunate on the 31st of December because we actually did one on Vohwinkel which is on the marshalling yards. So you’d got a fair, a fair target to spread eagle your bomb load. Yeah. [pause] That’s something like nine, nine hours. Nine hours flying time. Not bad. Four and a half there, four and a half back. It was all the usual targets really. Places we’d heard of from 1939 when we’d gone out with Blenheims and Fairey Battles which a squadron had in ’39 out in France, Fairey Battles. They got minced. Minced up because they were attacked on the floor. We’d arranged them all in nice little parking lots so it makes an easy target to come down in one swoop and, you know you get the lot. Do you want any more?
DH: Yeah. Can you name some of them because you said some of the places that you recognised?
WG: Oh, I remember some of the names. You see, Dortmund. Well known to everybody. We’d all heard it on the news from 1939.
DH: Yeah.
WG: Munich. A lot of things went on there. My little note here there were no serious opposition. In other words we never saw any night fighters and the flak wasn’t that heavy either.
DH: Right.
WG: Krefeld. You see we’re coming now to December of, and January. January of ’45. Well, the war was, really speaking it was on its way out, you know. The Germans had got enough to do to try and stop the Army. They still put up a very serious opposition with night fighters because they could, their radar was so good.
DH: Oh right.
WG: They could vector people in. Tell them where to go and then I think they’d even got you on, well they’d got your number marked really. That’s one thing that [pause] whether it was better radar than ours I don’t know but it certainly, it certainly enabled them to put fighter aircraft too damned close to you and they could see you.
DH: Did you ever have any close shaves?
WG: These were all night.
DH: Yeah.
WG: All my early ones were night. Night attacks and then we started to do daylights and that was lovely. You could see where you were going. And by the logbook I don’t think we wanted them to have any heating because we were doing coking plants. They were making up, they were making petrol so [pause] Yes, little though, we got the, we got the coking plants alright. And it just says here complete cloud cover and flak moderate. Sometimes you felt if it had been put out as a paper you could have walked on it.
DH: Really.
WG: Sometimes it was very, very heavy. Yes. Oil plants. We’d gone on to synthetic oil plant here at Wanne Eickel. Then we had a little bit of practice and we did sort of a low level attacks on Ely Cathedral. It’s a wonder it’s got any glass in it with people passing over so low.
DH: Yeah.
WG: But they were nice little local runs you see. Take off, do a couple of little circuits on it and then back to base. It was back in time for tea. Yeah. I had quite a little spell in late January with local, local flying. We put it to good use because we used that as the test flying for when we dropped the food and that’s only three months away but all these were low, low level exercises. Oh yes. We were doing a photo shoot on at low level as an exercise and then it was hindered by a snow storm. Yes. [pause] Then one or two, well certainly one raid here that I didn’t like to be on. Coming from Stoke on Trent going to Dresden which I’d been taught as a boy on the wonderful ceramics that had been made there. To go there was almost like dropping it on, on [unclear] you know. But I think that’s about the only time I had any conscience at all about dropping bombs. Yeah, it’s funny that’s come to light. I haven’t looked at this for an awful long time. Little name here. Wiesbaden.
DH: Right.
WG: When we had [pause] that was using our Gee equipment, and we were up at twenty six thousand feet taking notes. And then we got on the 13th Dresden. As I say this really did bring it home as a pottery lad. It was a bit naughty, but it was the worst flying weather that I’d ever experienced.
DH: In what way?
WG: All the way, well for a considerable time across France we were in thick cumulus cloud and being thrown about like a cork in a rough sea. It was wicked. But it got us. Well, it partially relieved my conscience because we were, we had to abandon it. Yeah. There. The ice coming off the propellers and bits of aircraft, and flak might have been flying outside. It was hitting the aircraft and it really gave you a thumping.
DH: So that was bits of ice coming off other aircraft.
WG: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Flying out. Wow.
WG: Which were the worst conditions that I ever flew in.
DH: Yeah.
WG: And then the following night we did the adjacent city of Chemnitz. And yes, that was done with marking the target with flares and we took, you know target markers and we dropped on those. Then we came a little bit closer to home with Weisel. Which is where the Canadians and ourselves, the English made the crossing across the Rhine.
DH: Right.
WG: And we went there sort of three days. The 16th, the 19th and the date we went, or when the Army crossed. I know there were three. Yes. On the 23rd and they really gave it a peppering going in and coming out. It was very heavily defended. When we, my neighbour from Oakengates, he said when they crossed, they crossed when we bombed it, he said we made such a damned good job, he said you couldn’t get down the streets for masonry. We flattened it.
DH: Oh my God.
WG: They had to get the bulldozers across quickly to clear the path to get the troops across. But they’d peppered us for certainly two of my trips were very heavy.
DH: Your specific target that time for those three was it the German Armed Forces? Was it marshalling yards? Was it —
WG: The target was preparing the ground for the Army to go in and take the, take the town.
DH: Right.
WG: But it was very heavily defended both from a point of view of anti-aircraft fire and for ground fire to meet any opposing troops.
DH: Yeah.
WG: Yeah. Weisel. Weisel. Dortmund. Gelsenkirchen. That was a nicer one [pause] and then one I did with another, another skipper and we were brought back to, because of fog we had to land at Tangmere on the south coast. And then it was Dortmund again. They liked that place didn’t they? And Gelsenkirchen. Yes. Both very well clouded over. My note here. Ten tenths cloud. Yes.
DH: You mentioned where you’d had quite a peppering and it’s been heavy flak. Have you ever had any really close shaves?
WG: One at night that really did rock us because the gunners, my mid-upper gunner swears that he was trying to get us on the radio, on intercom, and he, bellowing down it and checking his connections and, before I reported that we’d got an aircraft on the starboard side and we took a little bit of evasive action. Just dropped perhaps fifty feet and he was very relieved after. When we, when we were out of trouble his intercom started to work. It was funny that. He said, ‘I’d seen the darned thing and I was trying in fury to tell everybody.’ That’s Cologne. And Gelsenkirchen. Ham. Weisel, and yes [pause] Kiel. Kiel Canal. The German Navy. Naval base. And then we did another little gardening trip. We called mine laying gardening. And we were in the Kattegat so it’s sort of a nice little area out of Kiel and yeah, the thing was you’d got to keep, you’d got to keep low all the way from England. You were virtually skimming the tops of the waves all the way to the target and you’ve got to go up above Denmark and then down. You didn’t, you wouldn’t climb to get over Denmark. You’d go around the top and then down. You planned it all to stop the night fighters finding you. We were lucky. We were very, very lucky. And then we come to the very happy events really. Then we come to the supply drops. The Manna. Operation Manna which gave the, certainly the Belgians and the Dutch a lifeline, because they had, well they just had no food.
DH: Yeah.
WG: And they, they used to go out along the railway lines in the hope that they might get enough coal to light a fire and it was bitterly cold. A bitterly cold winter. Aye, there was people that suffered and they were eating, eating the fruit of their wares, tulip bulbs. Dear.
DH: How many runs would you do across to Belgium and Holland?
WG: Food drops?
DH: Yeah.
WG: How many did I do? That’s one [pages turning] Yes, two. Three. I did two on Rotterdam there. One on the Hague. Yes. Dropped them on the football ground. Oh, the racecourse. Yeah. That was nice but it was totally the ingenuity of the ground crew to lash up this mesh across the bomb bay.
DH: Yeah.
WG: That you could drop the lot all at once, you know and it was all, all the food. It was all obviously in its packages, but it was put in two sacks and if, if one sack broke the idea was that the other one might save it and fortunately most of it did.
DH: Good.
WG: They [pause] Yeah. I remember these. I remember looking down and you could see the faces and they had pieces of cardboard and on it they’d [laughs] it’s funny. They were eating their livelihood, their tulip bulbs. They were eating those as food. They’d got nothing [pause] and they’d got little notices. Whether it was in chalk or what I don’t know but it just said, “Cigarettes please.” [laughs] so —
DH: Did you take them cigarettes?
WG: We, we, on the second trip we did get some, the gunners to drop through the slots in the, in the rear turret. We pitched a few packets out. We kept them in the cellophane wrappers, you know and just, I mean we were low. I mean we were not much above the height of these houses.
DH: Really. So the cigarette drops were unofficial then.
WG: Oh, it was totally unofficial. You know what you’d done one these appeals for cigarettes and you smoked yourselves in those days. You realise what they were perhaps going through. The pangs. So it was a matter of an easy way out. And the rear turrets had hardly got any, you know there was a big hole because the gunners didn’t like to see the Perspex. If it, if there were specks on it you’d think it was an aircraft. So most of the gunners had part of a cover unspoiled with the removal of the Perspex. Yeah. That was, that was one. I must, yeah. It was, it was upsetting to see these people down below. We knew they were starving. You don’t do the type of drop that we did without food. And to lash it up in a matter of a few days and get the supplies to the airfields because there was an awful lot of, you know you’re dropping seven hundred tons. A lot of. Not one aircraft [laughs] but it’s all got to be got the aerodrome. And —
DH: How many aircraft would there be doing that?
WG: Well, we [pause] I suppose 15 Squadron at Mildenhall were putting fifteen aircraft in the air and we were certainly putting fifteen out of 622 Squadron.
DH: Wow.
WG: So we, somewhere I had the tonnages but I’ve lost those. Yes. And then we were called on. We did the last food drop on the 7th. And on the 10th, this is in May we were asked to go to, or ordered to go to Juvencourt in France to pick up ex-prisoners of war. Now, this was, this was doubly emotional really. The first one that I was able to speak to we’d loaded them in, we carried about twenty and I got one up right by me. But you tell them, ‘You’ll have to stand back there when we are going to take off because I shall be, I might have to come back here quickly.’ And no problems with him. The rest of them were sitting, sitting down on what is the bomb bay. The roof of it. And we sat them down there, a couple of them along the flight bed and they were, they were fairly close together. No, no ‘chutes of course. No harnesses. Just whatever they were standing up in outside. That’s what they flew in. And this boy, he didn’t look much older than, well he certainly wasn’t. I didn’t think he was anywhere near thirty, put it that way and he was picked up very, very early in the war. Before, way before Dunkirk and he said, ‘We were told to go out — ’
[telephone ringing – recording paused]
DH: Ok.
WG: I got him up by me and explained what would happen on take-off. That I would be assisting the skipper and where if you, you know put him in a nice safe little spot. And in the conversations before we’d taken off it was that he’d been sent out on a night patrol to pick up a German prisoner and find out, so that the intelligence could find out where he, where he was in the way of the German Army. Obviously, they would know his rank but they were after his regiment and what the regiment was equipped with and so on. Anyway, this lad found himself on the wrong side of the wire and he was picked up instead of him taking the prisoner and he did the rest of the war as a POW. He was in reasonable state. He was a bit, you know the worse for food or poor food, and he said overall he hadn’t been too badly treated which wasn’t quite the case as we came to the finish, because there was an awful lot that were trying to get away from the Russians and they were force marched really. Anyway, this poor lad was, had served most of his military career in a German POW camp. Yeah. It’s, it makes you wonder afterwards where all these people went to.
DH: Yeah.
WG: Because I’ve, we fetched a fair few back from, from Juvencourt. I’m just wondering how many more I did there. The food drops by the way and the returning, the POWs, ex-POWs. They don’t count as operations.
DH: Oh right.
WG: Yeah.
DH: So, at an operation you’ve got to be being shot at.
WG: Yes. Although, the first few aircraft that went out to Belgium were fired at but only, I mean you’ve got Germans that were being hassled. They were told not to fire. But the news didn’t always get to the men did it?
DH: No.
WG: You know, it would be back in the billet. One, two, three, four, yeah. There were four there in quick, quick succession. Eleven, fifteen, sixteenth, twenty first, twenty third. Just a [pause] yeah, and then that brings us safely to the end. The end of the war. And then I was posted very quickly. ‘Get your kit together. You’re posted.’ And I never had chance to say thanks a million to my skipper, my navigator, my bomb aimer, wireless operator and the two gunners. Never. I regret it. It rankles a bit.
DH: Yeah.
WG: It was close as close and then you were [pause] I was, I don’t suppose I was the only one but there were too many that never got really to say cheerio or even get addresses.
DH: Not like today is it?
WG: I managed to through, through the Blenheim Society, and I don’t know how I was contacted by them but I went out to the base that 15 Squadron were on out in France. They were there in 1939. And through that I met my old wireless operator, and he had obviously had more time, he was able to furnish some addresses and again I picked up crews from them.
DH: Yeah.
WG: From him. And when I go to Mildenhall I always go over to, for the reunion. I go over to see my mid-upper gunner at Lowestoft.
DH: He’s still there? He’s still alive?
WG: Yes. He’s ninety three. We were, we were the two juniors in the crew, yeah. My skipper as I say he was, he was thirty, thirty three when we met him and he wanted, he wanted to live to be thirty five so [laughs] And then Paddy. Paddy, I picked up oh very late when he’d finished his, he’d stayed in the Royal Air Force and he’d flown on Javelins which was Delta Wing aircraft, you know. Yeah. And he’d flown, flown on those. And I rather think the rest of us we’d all finished up as ground crew.
DH: Before we started the interview you were telling me about the bomb aimer. You told me a little story about how he was, he didn’t do what he was told and and, and what sort of bomb aimer he ended up being really. Can you explain that for us please?
WG: He was a bit of a naughty lad. He was sent out to Canada to train as a pilot, and he liked to see what was on the ground I think and particularly when it was in front of the CO’s accommodation. And he sort of did his little bit of aeronautics low level, fast in front of the COs offices and whether he got annoyed with the noise through his windows I don’t know, but Paddy was hauled up a number of times and told stop the low, you know to stop his low flying antics. And I think it was the third attempt by the CO he decided the best thing he could do for the Royal Air Force was to ground him. Take him off flying. Paddy said, ‘Well, if you won’t let me train as a pilot I’ll train as a bomb aimer,’ he said, ‘But I’ll be the best — ’ blankety blank, ‘Bomb aimer you’ve turned out.’ you see. Which I believe he was. He was very, very good. We only, I think one day on the Ruhr we had to go around twice and the skipper told him off when he got back. He said, ‘Don’t ever you do that again.’ [laughs] So he always made certain he got it well lined up before we got too close. Yes. He was, he was quite a boy. I took him, I had a little two fifty side valve motorbike and no lights, no dynamo. No nothing you see. So, it was all daylights for me. And Paddy was courting a girl. One of the nurses at Ely. Ely Hospital. And one day he came, he said, ‘Can you take me to Ely this afternoon?’ So, we’d got nothing on anyway so yeah fair enough. I said, ‘But I’ve very little petrol Paddy.’ So, ‘Oh, don’t worry about petrol. I’ll get you filled up.’ Which he did. And coming back they’d just been resurfacing roads in patches and there was a lot, quite a few corners and one of them had got quite a build-up of pebbles or crushed granite or something. A little motorbike didn’t handle too well when it’s, half its wheels, or half the depth of the tyres are buried in loose shingle. So I thought I was losing the front end and Paddy heaved himself, oh I’d stooped down. I was flat on the tank. He sort of heaved himself up off the two footrests and barrelled over me, and then rolled right in to a lovely clump of nettles. I mean it was a lovely, lovely bunch. But no hard feelings. His wife said afterwards I tried to kill him [laughs] but I’d never do that to Paddy anyway. Anyway, it was one of the family things that he remembered after the war to tell her.
DH: Did he marry that girl he was courting?
WG: Oh, he married the nurse, definitely. Yes. Yes. Oh, I admired his choice. Lovely girl.
DH: Looking back, apart from you said about Dresden with the Stoke on Trent.
WG: Yes.
DH: That connection. Have you got any regrets about the war?
WG: They’re all a total waste of human resources [pause] but unfortunately they become a necessity. I can’t think how we could have ever have got a peaceful Europe with the likes of Hitler.
DH: Yeah. What are you most proud of with your time in Bomber Command?
WG: I’m proud to have taken part in [pause] in so much of it. [pause] Yes. Overall, I think the Royal Air Force did a fantastic job and I’m proud of, proud of that side of it. And the humanitarian side at the end of the war because that certainly saved hundreds of people’s lives in Holland and Belgium. Holland was —
DH: Can I ask were you ever scared?
WG: Not, not scared. You’re trained to do a job and you were the crew that have trained to do a job and you realise that if we all do our job to the utmost of our ability and that’s all you can expect of anybody then ok, if we’re unlucky we get shot down. But we were, we were, when you think of the short period of time that people were together in training we were very well trained. I mean it takes an age now to get people from —
DH: Yeah.
WG: From Civvy Street to virtually to get them in uniform. To do a useful job flying takes an age. And you’ve got people with a far better education than we had and of course technologies. It hasn’t just jumped, it’s [pause] gone over. Who’d have thought twenty years ago that you could have a little thing in your hand, no, not as big as a packet of cigarettes that would communicate you, or give you communication to any part of the world and take photographs at the same time.
DH: It’s amazing.
WG: It’s just, you know one little thing. I mean, you, you have something today by the end of the week it’s redundant. I don’t altogether agree with it. [laughs] But it’s a fact. Technology has gone sky high.
DH: You said earlier on that once the war finished you ended up as ground crew. How long were you in the Air Force for after that?
WG: I came out in 1947. So I did two years after the finish. Then I was overseas.
DH: What did you do overseas?
WG: I was MT.
DH: Yeah. Did you —
WG: I was, supposedly I was in charge of the paperwork for the, part of the Air Ministry Works Department in Singapore. But I was never a pen pusher. I liked to get my hands dirty at times and I would go, I would go driving. Because you could pick somebody. Air Ministry Works Department wanted architects or perhaps quantity surveyors up at the north end of Malaya. ‘Oh, that will be very nice. Yes. I’ll go. I’ll take you.’ You see, and leave somebody else to do the nitty gritty back home doing the paperwork. That’s, that’s what I did. Do paperwork when you get back or [pause] Yeah, I had, I had a very easy passage. I just wish that it would have been a little bit better organised before and had at least a couple of days with the crew.
DH: Yeah.
WG: The poor lad from New York. I never got to say thank you or even bye bye.
DH: What did you end up doing in Civvy Street?
WG: I came out and I went out with my brother in law who had also been in the Royal Air Force. He’d been training wireless operators strangely. Yeah. Down in Compton Bassett and then up at Madley, Hereford. Yeah, I went with him because he’d started a china and glass retailing. Well, wholesale and retail, and stayed for the rest of his life.
DH: Did you continue doing that?
WG: I continued. I did about two years of it and then I came down from Stoke on Trent down to Shropshire then. This is where I settled and [pause] Yes, came down and I worked on an engineering works for a very short time and then I found a real niche in the gas industry on sales, and went eventually doing heating and air conditioning.
DH: Do you think your experiences during the war shaped how you, how you became?
WG: No, I don’t think it did. I think it made me pretty tolerant of a lot of things really. I don’t like bad behaviour in people. But perhaps it’s made me a little bit more tolerant than I was.
DH: Is there, I’m going to bring the interview to a close in a moment. Is there anything else that you can think of your time in Bomber Command that we haven’t already talked about that you wanted to mention.
WG: No. It was, well it was very fulfilling at the time. I think it was. I think it was wonderful how with so little knowledge even though I was passionately interested in aircraft, when you get in it you realise how precious little you know. But it does help to round off the corners I suppose. I think it’s marvellous how both Air Force, Army and Navy were able to train people from all walks of life to do specific jobs and do them damned well. I don’t know. I really think that’s, that is marvellous that they can put training programmes in which had been the basics of a lot of training in civilian life in all types, types of companies. Whether that some of them have learned it from there I wouldn’t know. Sometimes you — [pause] Yeah. To make somebody safe and safe enough to put with other people with very dangerous things in their hands or in control of. I think it’s, I think that’s a, that is a fantastic achievement from whichever Force it might be. And look at the technology that we’ve had. Crikey.
DH: Ok. It just remains for me then to say thank you very much for talking to me today.
WG: Oh, thank you [laughs]
DH: Very enjoyable.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Paul Gould
Creator
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Dawn Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGouldWP180619
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:26:16 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
William Gould joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps at his Grammar School in Stoke on Trent. After selection to join the RAF as a wireless operator/air gunner he went to RAF Eastchurch to remuster as a flight engineer, and from there did his training at RAF St Athan. He joined his crew on 622 Squadron at RAF Bottesford. From there the Squadron moved to Mildenhall to commence bombing operations on Lancasters. At the end of 1944 and beginning of 1945 he flew operations in support of the Allied armies advancing on Germany. He witnessed V-2 rockets at close hand. He took part in three Operation Manna drops to the Dutch people, and also took part in repatriating ex-prisoners of war back to the UK. His regret is that at the end of his tour of operations he was reposted so quickly he didn’t have the chance to say goodbye to his crew.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Kent
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Wales--Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
622 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
flight engineer
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Bottesford
RAF Eastchurch
RAF Mildenhall
RAF St Athan
training
V-2
V-weapon
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/884/11123/AHoughWJ160905.2.mp3
1c6ad66a90fcf551165724a6609e3bda
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hough, William
William John Hough
W J Hough
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Bill Hough (1924 - 2019, 2203740, 197350 Royal Air Force). He few operations as a wireless operator with 582 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hough, WJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Mr Bill Hough. The interview is taking place at Mr Hough’s home near Warrington in Cheshire on the 5th of September 2016. Mr Hough, you’ve asked me, you’ve invited me to call you Bill. Bill, I wonder if I could ask you just to tell us please a little about your life before you joined the Royal Air Force and your reasons for signing up.
BH: Well, I’d come from a farming background really but I didn’t myself go in to farming. After I’d left grammar school, I attended grammar school in locally, Northwich. And for a period, I think I was sixteen when I left grammar school but I knew eventually I was going to have to go in the forces. But in the meantime I had a temporary job with ICI which was a pretty big employer in this area, and then when the time come to join up I volunteered rather than be recruited. Mainly so I could go in to the air force rather than be recruited in to say the army or the navy which I wouldn’t have liked. So I volunteered for the air force as soon as I was able. What’s that? Eighteen and a quarter I believe it was when you were able to. So it was in 1943. Spring of 1943 when I joined up.
JM: Would you say that your experience of the Second World War was a factor in you choosing the Royal Air Force?
BH: My experience of the —?
JM: Well you must have seen some of the blitz bombing of Liverpool and Manchester.
BH: Oh certainly. Certainly. I was always attracted to aeroplanes I suppose. I remember going to air shows locally. I was in the cadets.
JM: The ATC.
BH: ATC yeah. For a while. So, and you know I got into various things by doing Morse code and that type of thing so, you know, I’d got a background in aviation and it was natural that if I had a choice I would go into the air force. And well that’s what I did. I was accepted. I was accepted as air crew as well.
JM: Where did you go to enrol?
BH: When I first joined up you mean?
JM: Yes.
BH: I went to Lord’s Cricket Ground. The nursery end actually [laughs] Yeah, I joined at Lord’s Cricket Ground. I don’t know why it was there. It was just a place that was used by the air force I suppose. And we were billeted in St John’s Wood in, there were some very posh apartments there and they were requisitioned. And that’s where we were. We didn’t stay there long because we, you were moved on pretty — you did some drill there but you quickly moved on to ITW. Initial Training Wing.
JM: And where was that please?
BH: Bridgnorth.
JM: So that was the West Midlands.
BH: Yes. Bridgnorth. Yeah.
JM: Do you have any memories of your time at ITW?
BH: I remember arriving at ITW. I don’t know if you know Bridgnorth at all.
JM: Slightly.
BH: Well it’s in two sections — an upper and a lower. And we arrived by rail and the station is at the lower end. The camp was at the top end. We were met by an officer there, a flight lieutenant I remember. And he made, we carried kit of course, and he made us jog all the way with full kit up this hill. It was quite a, quite a difference in height and, you know, we weren’t that fit then [laughs] and he jogged us right up this hill to the camp. I can remember that distinctly. And that’s what? A six weeks course or something isn’t it? ITW. Something like that. Which was pretty well all drill.
JM: Basic airmanship in that sense.
BH: I suppose so. Yes. I can only remember the drill part of it, you know. The parade ground stuff. I suppose to get you fit in a way. Everybody coming in was probably very unfit.
JM: And where did you go to after ITW?
BH: Well, by then I’d opted — I think you had a choice of where you went. Well not, not a choice but you couldn’t be a pilot or a navigator because they were trained overseas pretty well. But I opted for a wireless operator/air gunner. And, you know, which was going to be in two parts and eventually I was sent to the Number 2 Radio School at Yatesbury, Wiltshire. That was a pretty isolated place that was but that was, that was where I went. And that’s where we learned the basics of radio communication. And also did our first flying. Initially in Dominies.
JM: Yes.
BH: And then in Proctors.
JM: Proctors.
BH: Yeah. Well that, I think that was, I don’t know, it was quite a, quite a long course. Probably it might have been six months. It was quite an intensive course. You learned aircraft recognition. Morse code. You had to pass at a certain level and as I say you had to do this stuff in the air as well. First in groups in a Dominie and then on your own. Just with the pilot in the Proctor.
JM: Did your experiences as a cadet help you learning Morse code?
BH: I suppose that’s perhaps in a way why I opted to be a W/op air gunner. I suppose that did contribute. Yes. Yes.
JM: What sort of speeds did you reach?
BH: You had to be able to read twenty. Twenty words per minute. That was the pass out speed. Twenty words per minute. Yeah.
JM: And were you trained in the technology of wireless as it was at that time or was it merely a matter of sending and receiving?
BH: No, there was some technical stuff as well. It was all pretty basic. You weren’t a mechanic or anything, you know. You were an operator. Not a mechanic. Not a radio mechanic. You were an operator. So, but obviously you had to learn some basic stuff to know what went on behind the sets and so on.
JM: And when you’d finished at Yatesbury, at Number 2 Wireless School, where did you go after that?
BH: Well, I went to gunnery school which was at Castle Kennedy, Scotland. Of course I trained as an air gunner because at that time the position was W/op air gunner. It was sort of harking back to the smaller planes where you did two jobs. Whereas when the four engine bombers came in they were quite separate and I never did operate as an air gunner. I trained as an air gunner but I never operated as an air gunner. But I went to Castle Kennedy in Scotland. We did some ground firing initially with a turret on the ground. And then of course you got in to the air and I think we mainly flew Ansons then. You fired from the mid-upper turret at a drogue which was being towed by another aircraft. And as I say I trained there but never used the skill. If it is a skill [laughs]
JM: Well it is deflection shooting.
BH: Yeah.
JM: Did you find that difficult to master?
BH: No. But that’s the basis of it obviously. Deflection shooting. But I don’t know you’ve got to score. They used to score you on what, how close you were. That sort of thing. You got a certificate. It’s in my logbook actually. But you got a certificate when you passed out saying you know, I don’t know, gave you some kind of pass mark I suppose.
JM: So you’re now qualified as a wireless operator/air gunner.
BH: Yes.
JM: And what happened to you next, Bill?
BH: Well, it was [pause] it was OUT, I suppose it was called.
JM: Operational training.
BH: Operational Training Unit.
JM: Yes.
BH: And that was at [pause] Worksop wasn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
JM: So you were at Worksop near Nottingham.
BH: Yes.
JM: On number, Number 8 OTU.
BH: Yes. Number 8 OTU while we flew in Wellingtons. I had that period before that. Number 6 AFU. That’s —
JM: Advanced airborne fighting unit?
BH: Flying Unit. I can’t remember doing any flying there. I remember being at Staverton but I don’t know what we did there exactly. It was a very short period. We soon passed on to the OTU where we flew in Wellingtons and I’m trying to remember when we crewed up but I think that was later. Yeah. It was. Yeah. We did the OTU at Worksop.
JM: Do you have any memories of flying in Wellingtons?
BH: Not a lot really. The positions were quite different there I think. I remember, I think I remember, the wireless operator’s position was down in the nose somehow, whereas later on it was all up on one level, you know. But I think that was down in the nose there.
JM: And did you fly on any missions as part of your OTU training? Did you do leaflet raids or anything of that sort?
BH: No. I think that was a lot of that was done wasn’t it? And when they first did these thousand bomber raids, you know, they included some people from OTUs just to make the numbers up. But they were mainly instructors I think. I don’t think it was in-training people. It was the instructors that went on those. And then after that we went to HCU which is a Heavy Conversion Unit and that was at Lindholme, which is near to Doncaster isn’t it? 1656 HCU. Now, I think that’s where we crewed up. We were then flying Halifaxes actually. That was the training aircraft at that time. For four engine bombers. And I remember the crewing up process was, I don’t know, a bit of a shambles somehow. I mean, I eventually got with a Canadian crew. Now, I can’t remember whether — I remember being in this big room and people going around saying, ‘Have you crewed up yet?’ ‘Have you?’ ‘We’re looking for a wireless operator,’ or, ‘We’re looking for an engineer.’ This type of thing. People just walking around. And, you know, not any system at all. Just leaving it up to, I suppose, the pilots, the captain of the prospective crew. But you see I think five out of the seven of our crew were Canadians and I have a feeling that they were already together. The only two English people were myself who was the wireless operator and the flight engineer. So, I remember, you know, Art Green, who was the skipper, coming up to me and saying me, ‘Are you crewed up yet,’ and sort of giving me a few questions [laughs] and so on. But eventually —
JM: Yeah.
BH: You know, accepted me and that was how you got crewed up and then you started flying in Halifaxes and started to get serious, you know, some serious training.
JM: What did you think about a Halifax as an aeroplane to operate?
BH: I can’t remember a great deal but it obviously didn’t have a great reputation. Not as good as the Lancaster obviously but you know it had its points and was a good training aircraft I suppose. But operationally it wasn’t a success was it? Well, not as successful as some others. That and the Stirling of course were not as successful.
JM: And was it when you were on Heavy Conversion Unit — was that the first time you did operations at all?
BH: No. I didn’t do any operations from there at all. The Lancaster was coming in at that. Well, it had probably been in for a while but it was coming in in big numbers and the Halifaxes were being phased out in favour of Lancasters. So the next step was, for us was to go to an LFU. Oh, what was it called? It was an LFS. Lancaster —
JM: Finishing.
BH: Finishing School. Yeah. In other words converting you from Halifaxes to Lancasters. Mainly for the captain’s purpose I suppose. I mean he was the one that would find the biggest change. I mean the wireless operator was, you know, was operating the same equipment and the gunners were operating the same guns and that kind of thing so it was mainly for the, for the pilot. But that was, you know, quite a short period that LFS. Only a matter of two or three weeks I think, something like that. And then from then you were posted to an Operational Unit.
JM: And where were you posted to?
BH: Firstly to Elsham Wolds. That’s where’s that near? I don’t know.
JM: Elsham Wolds is North Lincolnshire.
BH: Yeah.
JM: Not far from the Humber Bridge now.
BH: I think that’s near to Worksop as well actually.
JM: Not far.
BH: I seem to remember Worksop from there. And that was to 576 Squadron. There were actually two squadrons there you know. 576, and I think it was 103. Both Lancaster squadrons. And from there, we are getting now to September ’44. I mean I’d been training for over a year at that point. It was a long process. And from Elsham Wolds I did ten operations from there.
JM: Do you remember those operations at all? Do you remember how you felt on your first one?
BH: Scared to death I suppose [laughs] well, as you were on most operations for that matter. You just were a bit more familiar after a while. You knew what was coming. But on a first operation obviously you don’t. And I forget where it was too but it was there. I did ten from there and we also — there was a satellite base at Fiskerton which is near to there. And I think we were based there for part of the time for some reason. I don’t know why. But it was a satellite of Elsham Wolds. I did one operation from there. I did ten operations from Elsham and one from Fiskerton. And at that time we were recommended for Pathfinders. The crew was recommended for Pathfinders. So we had to go on another training conversion course and that was at Warboys. We went from Fiskerton to Warboys for the NTU. What does that mean? Training. What’s N mean? Anyway, it was sort of conversion from main stream squadron to, to Pathfinder. We were still flying the same aircraft of course. On Lancasters. And that was only actually three days I see. Just three days for this conversion. And then we were posted to 582 Pathfinder Squadron which was at Little Staughton which was near to Bedford, St Neots. And at little Staughton — it was formerly an American base but when Pathfinders were formed I believe they took it over. I mean Pathfinders hadn’t been in existence for, I don’t know, about a year or eighteen months. And the Yanks gave it up and the Pathfinders took it over. 582 Squadron was based there, that’s a Lancaster squadron. But there was a further squadron — 109 Squadron which flew Mosquitoes. So there were two Pathfinder squadron operating from there.
JM: And how many operations did you do with 582?
BH: Well I did eleven. I did thirty four altogether so that leaves twenty three from there. I did thirty four. Yeah. Fourteen to thirty four.
JM: Was your selection as a Pathfinder crew — was that based on a good record of bombing when you were at Elsham?
BH: Yes. It obviously was but it was mainly to do with the proficiency of the pilot and the navigator I think. I mean the navigator was the key man or was the key man in Pathfinders because, you know, they had to be bang on. Find the target, and mark the target for the Main Force who may not have been as efficient as our navigator. They would have had trouble finding the target if we hadn’t marked it so I think that was the criteria. That you had a good pilot. We had a very experienced pilot. He was [pause] he was a peacetime man, pilot. He was in his thirties actually. He was a flight lieutenant. Later squadron leader. But, I mean, some of the pilots were quite raw. In Main Force particularly. You know, twenty, twenty one, twenty two. And the only flying experience they had was in their training whereas Art Green he had flied before the war and then of course volunteered into the war. So he was a very experienced pilot. Very level headed and, you know. A man you knew you could rely on. Trust.
JM: Just for the tape you said Art Green. Is that short for Arthur Green?
BH: I suppose it is [laughs] I never, we always called him Art actually but [laughs] yeah. We always called him Art. I suppose it was Arthur.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. And was it a collective decision to transfer to Pathfinders or did the captain make it and you had to go along?
BH: I suppose he was invited or selected and we had to go along with him. I don’t think he had a choice. No.
JM: Because it was a longer tour of operations wasn’t it?
BH: Oh yeah. You had — a normal tour in Main Force was thirty ops but in Pathfinders because you’d done so much training you were more, sort of, valuable. And a tour there was, was it thirty five, I think? I think it was thirty five. Yeah. Whereas in Main Force it was thirty.
JM: And was there a special badge that you got to show that you were in the Pathfinder force?
BH: Yes. You had a thing on your breast pocket.
JM: A brevet.
BH: Which we were very very proud of it. It was a golden eagle, ss it? I suppose. Yeah.
JM: Yes.
BH: The air force eagle. Yes. You wore it on the left breast pocket.
JM: And your job with Pathfinders was to illuminate the target with flares.
BH: Yes.
JM: Could you say a bit more about that please?
BH: Well, to me it didn’t [pause] sort of affect my job, anyway, you know. It, it was, I suppose the navigator and bomb aimer that would. And the pilot I suppose. But as far as I was concerned I was just a wireless operator in an aircraft. Obviously, you were going in first and you were, you were in a more dangerous situation because you were first in and sometimes you had to go around and go back in if you missed the target. That sort of thing, so — but apart from that as I say it didn’t really affect me.
JM: Did your aeroplane just carry flares or did it have a mixed load of flares and bombs?
BH: Well, often it was mixed. Yeah. You had a mixture quite often. Depends what you were. You sort of category. Sky markers, and blind markers and all that kind of stuff. So depending what you were you carried a mixed load normally.
JM: Do any of those operations particularly stand out in your mind?
BH: Well, I was shot down on one of them [laughs]
JM: That was —
BH: That stands out in my mind. Yes.
JM: Tell us about that please. If you would.
BH: And this was operation number thirteen [laughs] which might have been our worst. It was a daylight operation actually to a place called Heimbach Dam which was [pause] it was in Northern Germany anyway. But at that time we were — allied forces were advancing through Belgium and there. And just into Germany possibly and we were on this daylight raid bombing just ahead of our forces. In the American sector actually. And this was a dam that was just inside Germany. Heimbach. It was a daylight operation. We took off pretty early. Eight. Eight something I think. It wasn’t deep into Germany so it was only probably a two or three hour trip to there. The weather wasn’t forecast to be marvellous and I remember going. Flying in over Belgium and we were nearing the target. Flying over ten tenths cloud. The forecast just wasn’t good. The weather wasn’t good and we were flying in a stream obviously as we usually did. And we were on the outer starboard side of the stream on the right hand side which was not a good place to be. And then the, our gunner, Major Campbell. He wasn’t a major really. We used to call him major. He was a warrant officer but his nickname was major. Major Campbell. Rear gunner. He reported a plane on the starboard quarter and but he couldn’t identify it, he said. At the moment. It was quite a way off. Two or three miles away but I sort of fancied myself at aircraft recognition. I was always very good at aircraft recognition actually. And I stood up in the astrodome which was near to my position and I immediately identified it as a Messerschmitt 262. Now, that had not been in service very long at that time. It had been operated mainly as a fighter bomber actually. And I don’t think it had been encountered as a fighter but that’s what it was.
JM: And this is important because this was the first operational jet fighter in the world.
BH: Yes.
JM: And this attacked your aeroplane.
BH: Yes. It [pause] he reported this and I identified it as that and I thought he was keeping his eye on it when all of a sudden another one came directly behind us. And he reported that one quickly and said, ‘Corkscrew starboard.’ Which was the procedure when you had, you were being attacked but before we could really get into the corkscrew we were hit. The plane behind was the one that had fired. They carried cannon of course. They were pretty lethal these. And they were fast of course compared with a Lancaster. And it hit us in the port outer. Hit the port outer engine and we were immediately set on fire. Whether it was the fuel or the engine itself I suppose. There’s fuel tanks in that area. So that immediately took fire and we operated the fire extinguishers which didn’t make any difference. So the immediate outcome was for the skipper to say, ‘Abandon aircraft.’ And he ordered myself and the two gunners to go out the back entrance. The rest were at the front. So I clipped my parachute on. You didn’t wear it normally. You had it by your side. You had to clip it on to your harness at the front, and made my way down the fuselage. And the mid-upper gunner, the turret where he was located his feet protruded into the fuselage. You could see the bottom part of his body. There was only the upper part that was in the turret. So I remember going past him and giving him a bang on the legs to sort of tell him to get out in case he hadn’t heard or something like that and made my way down to the rear exit. And Johnny Campbell, the rear gunner was just getting out of his. He’d centred his turret, just getting out of his turret and by the time I got there he’d opened the door. The rear door where we got out. And he indicated to me to go first. And as I stood there my parachute came out. I never have known to this day what happened but my parachute came out through the door and deployed outside the aircraft. You know, pulling me as well and — sort of Johnny Campbell sized the situation up pretty quickly and got hold of me bodily and sort of pushed me out of the door. And going out I banged my head on the door and was lifted up. You know, normally have a parachute you should go down [laughs] initially anyway. But I was lifted up over the tail plane of the Lancaster. Banging my ankle on, on the elevator as I went out. But I eventually got free and after all the chaos that was going on in the plane and the noise everything seemed quiet. You know, just the plane had gone. I couldn’t see it anymore. I couldn’t hear anything. And the only problem was that my harness which you wear all the time in the aircraft. That you sometimes would slacken it off because it was a bit uncomfortable, you know between your legs. You would slacken it off a bit to make it more comfortable. And I omitted to tighten it up when I went out [laughs] and I was half out of the harness and I had hung on with two hands to hold on to the straps of the parachute. And otherwise I might have fallen out of it. But I eventually got down. I could see I was going to land in a field outside of a village. And as I got further down I noticed that there were people coming out of the village there. They must have seen the aircraft and seen me. They were running out of the village and I landed in this field which was, as I say, just outside the village. Not a very good landing obviously because I wasn’t able to do the standard roll because I was hanging on because of this loose harness. And it was quite windy as well as I remember. But I didn’t do any harm to myself and I was quickly grabbed by the villagers who grabbed the parachute and everything. Stopped me from being pulled along and there I was. It was a place called [pause] Tongeren I think it was, near to a place called Juprelle. It was in, it’s in northern, north western Belgium actually. And after about a quarter of an hour the Yanks came. I told you before it was in their sector and they arrived in a jeep and took me to hospital. Now, the outcome was that this gunner — I told you I banged the gunner on the way out. The outcome was that he didn’t get out. Everybody else got out but he didn’t. We always assumed that he was in the line of fire from the plane shooting over the top of the aircraft. Hitting an engine on the port side. He was probably shot, because he never got out. And he was, he was a replacement. That was the ironic part. Our own gunner — Ken McKeown, or Mac as we called him. He was called Mac. Mac McKeown. He was Canadian as well. Ken McKeown. The night before the operation he’d been, I was in the hut with him, we were both sergeants so we were in the same area there. He was cleaning his pistol. We carried a pistol on operations which was stuck in to your flying boot usually. But he was cleaning his and he put it in to the palm of his hand like that and pulled the trigger. And there was one up the spout and it went right through his hand. Clean through his hand. He was taken to hospital. He survived alright. It wasn’t serious I suppose in a way but he survived alright. But the consequence was he couldn’t take his position the next day. And I suppose the fellow that took his place was actually the gunnery leader. He was the Squadron leader. Gunnery leader. He didn’t normally fly. But I suppose he figured it was a pretty easy operation. Just over northern Europe. And he, he went in his place and he didn’t come back.
JM: Very sad.
BH: Yeah. It was very sad.
JM: Let’s have a break shall we?
[recording paused]
JM: Bill, we got to the point in the story where you were telling us about being shot down. I wonder if I could ask you to tell us a little bit more about that event.
BH: Well, I can tell you about what happened afterwards. I told you we were taken to hospital which was in a place called Hasselt which is in Belgium. It was a hospital. A very stark place I remember. It was operated by nuns. I was kept in for three or four days. I’d nothing serious. Just bumps mainly. No cuts or anything like that. After that I was taken to an American camp nearby where I stayed for one night and I recall having some very fine American food while I was there. Something that we didn’t get in the RAF. The Yanks were much better fed then we were. And then they took me to Brussels airport where I hitched a lift. There was no sort of formal arrangements. I hitched a lift on a Dakota back to the UK. First went to Down Ampney and then to [pause] where did I go to?
[pause]
BH: Well it doesn’t matter but it was Down Ampney. And then I went to somewhere much nearer the camp anyway. And then I took a train to St Neots where I phoned up the camp and said I was there. And they came and picked me up. I was still wearing my, all my old flying still, flying boots and my flying kit and everything. Got back to the station and all the other people had arrived before me. They probably hadn’t been in hospital. I don’t think anybody was hurt. Only me. And it was then that I learned that the mid-upper gunner hadn’t survived. And as for the flight engineer — we never saw him again. I don’t know what, we never knew what happened to him. I think he had, this was Denny Naylor who was the other British person, on the, in the crew. Flight engineer. And I think he had some kind of mental breakdown. I think it affected him and he never came back. So we had to have another flight engineer after that. And after that we were given a rest period I think. Probably, intentionally I suppose for people to recover. And I didn’t do another operation for probably six weeks or something like that. This was December the 3rd ’44 that we were shot down. And I think the next operation was February. Early February.
JM: Did you experience any reaction to your events? To your adventures?
BH: I’m sure I did as I say. I didn’t sleep for a long time. We used to come back in your mind, you know. You would see an engine on fire and all this kind of thing. It’s forgotten now but I’m sure at the time it did have a great affect on most people. All the crew. I’m sure.
JM: But there wasn’t any sort of support measures. Counselling or anything.
BH: No. We’d never heard of counsellors in those day [laughs] I don’t think. No. I don’t recall any of that. I mean if you had any problems like that you were soon shipped off. LMF. Lack of moral fibre. That was the term for it wasn’t it? I don’t know whether that happened to our engineer. Whether he just had some kind of mental problem. I don’t know. But as I say I never saw him again.
JM: Did you talk about it within the crew?
BH: About?
JM: What had happened?
BH: I suppose we did but not a great deal I don’t think. I don’t know what the correct approach was. Whether you talk about it or whether you forget it but I don’t recall talking to the crew about it and analysing and saying what we didn’t do properly and this kind of thing. Or what we should have done. I don’t recall anything like that to tell you the truth. It might be on my mind but I really don’t recall anything like that. No.
JM: That’s very helpful.
BH: But, you know, we operated as a crew afterwards again and did quite a few operations again with a new engineer and just got back to normality. If you can call it that.
JM: So you never thought well lightning can’t strike twice.
BH: No. I don’t think so because it does. I knew it had hit. With various, not with us obviously but with other people it could. Yes.
JM: And you completed quite a number of missions in early ’45. Right up to the war’s end.
BH: Yes. Yes. We went right up to the war. We [pause] the last one was — it wasn’t an operation. It was what we called a Manna. Where we took [pause] I don’t know how it was loaded. It was loaded in sacks I suppose — food. The Dutch people had had a very tough time during the war and a lot of them were all starving. And I think this Operation Manna, we only did one but it was before the war actually ended. I think it was the day before. May the 8th the Armistice was signed but this Operation Manna to take food to the Dutch people was on May the 6th or 7th probably. And we were required to load up the stuff in the bomb bay where the bombs would normally be and fly at a very low altitude over this park outside Amsterdam. Release the, open the bomb doors and release this stuff. And I do recall going in. There was, there was still there, a German anti-aircraft post that was still manned. And we could all see the look on these German soldiers you know. I think they thought we were going to bomb them. But that’s the last sort of operation we did.
JM: Now, I’d like to take you back a little way if I may. Could you tell us please, a little more of what it was like to be a wireless operator on a Lancaster raid?
BH: Well, as I say there was a lot of inactivity because your function was to listen. And what you might expect to hear was further instructions from the base. I mean, there was no sort of satellite communication and things like that. The only way you could get into contact with an aircraft that was quite a way from base was through medium wave / long wave radio which we had access to. In the vicinity of the airfield the pilot had contact with the airfield through the short frequency stuff. So as I say the the function of the operator was to listen mainly. And the messages you might get was, you know to change target. To change. Recall you. Something like that. If the weather was deemed to be too bad you might be recalled. And in an emergency you could transmit if you were going to ditch or something like that say. I mean in our instance we didn’t have time to do anything so, but if you were making a gradual descent and you had time to do something like that you could transmit. You were advised actually to lock the key down sometimes. You just locked the key down. It sent a continuous signal instead of being an interrupted signal which Morse code is. It just sent a continuous signal which would be picked up and it would indicate you were having problems. But otherwise as I say it was not a lot to do. I used to spend time in the astrodome which was nearby to have a lookout and see what was happening or say, identify something like I told you in the [pause] when we were shot down I was able to assist with the aircraft identification.
JM: So you will have seen, perhaps approaching the target you’ll have seen the searchlights and the anti-aircraft fire.
BH: Yes. Yes. Well, tracers and everything. It’s like a firework display when you’re going in I’m afraid.
JM: Did any of the anti-aircraft ever get close to your aircraft?
BH: Oh yeah. We had damage often, you know. You could hear it banging in the fuselage. And when you got back you might be peppered with holes. Oh yes. You got, and of course, you know if it was very, if a shell burst very close to you it upset the balance of the aircraft so — but you also got shrapnel from those shells. That was what did the damage but unless you got a direct hit I suppose you got away with it. But it was quite a sight going in. And plus all the stuff that was on the ground. The flares were there that we, that had been dropped. Yellow, green, red flares. And of course the fires. Often there was huge fires. So it was a spectacular sight in a way.
JM: Now, 582 Squadron was an important squadron in many ways but it had, as a member, the South African Captain Swales VC.
BH: Yeah.
JM: Could you tell us a little bit about that? Did you know that officer? And can you tell us a little about it?
BH: I only [pause] knew him, sort of to speak to. I wasn’t friendly with him or anything like that because most of the time I was a sergeant. He was an officer obviously. So we were in different messes. But after I got shot down early in ’45 I was promoted to flying officer but he’d been lost by then I think. So I didn’t really have close contact with him but I mean I was very familiar, quite familiar with him because he was a bit different. He wore an army uniform and he had a bit of a reputation. He acted as Master Bomber on various occasions. But apart from that, as I say, I couldn’t give any sort of personal assessment of him at all. But he was well — I know he was well liked. I used to know somebody from his crew. They were, you know were very fond of him. Trusted him. In fact I think when he was shot down there was only one crew member got out and that was the rear gunner who I did know quite well. I can’t recall his name now but I remember I used to speak to him at these reunions and things like that. But he was the sole survivor of that when Swales was shot down.
JM: He wasn’t the only VC winner on that squadron.
BH: No. There was one to Squadron Leader Palmer. Now, he was actually a member of 109 Squadron. Another Pathfinder Squadron. They did what was referred to as oboe marking. It was a beam that was sent out from [pause] from this country over the target and they would bomb on the end of that. They did a similar job to us but they only dropped flares mainly. But this particular operation, I don’t know, it must have been something special. He, Palmer who was a pilot with 109 was assigned to fly a Lancaster instead of a Mosquito and he was also acting as Master Bomber. So I don’t recall why it was this way but he was in a 582 plane at the time and when he was awarded that there was some debate of whether it should be credited to 582 Squadron or 109 Squadron. I suppose in fairness its 109 Squadron but he was flying with 582 Squadron and in a 582 aircraft at the time.
JM: Can we go back to your story because you’ve taken us very clearly to the end of the war. I understand you did a Cook’s Tour operation. Could you tell us about that?
BH: Well this was one of the things that we did after, after May the 8th. After the Armistice. There were various aircraft were consigned to do this so-called Cook’s Tour and it was to take ground crew mainly who, you know, had done a great job during the war. We relied on them for all the servicing and so and we got to know them very well. We normally had the same ground crew and we were allowed to put in [pause] I don’t know how many you could get in a Lancaster. Probably five or six. And take them of a tour of Germany to see what damage had been done with their assistance. And mainly, a tour was mainly down the Ruhr Valley. Where we flew down the Ruhr Valley, down the course of the Rhine at fairly low level. Sort of a sightseeing tour. That’s why it was called a Cook’s Tour. But, you know, on the way down you saw all the damage that had been done to places like Cologne and Ruddesheim and places like that. Mannheim. All the way down the valley. I often wondered what they could see because there was, there was really no viewing point in a Lancaster. No windows apart from the turrets. So they must have taken it in turns looking out of the turrets I think. Or going forward. The pilot might have let them in the flight engineer’s position. Something like that. But this, this, I think we did a couple of those. Just sort of appreciation of the work that they’d done really. And then after that we did trips to Italy. This, there was a great rush after the war to bring prisoners of war back. It was obviously going to take a long time to get them all back. So to, you know get some back as quickly as possible whole squadrons were sent to Italy to bring back prisoners of war. We flew to Bari, which was on the opposite side from Naples on the east side. And, yeah we usually stayed a night and then flew back with a compliment of prisoners of war. Now, I don’t know how many we packed in there but we packed them in quite a few. I mean a Lancaster is not, it’s not very roomy inside. There’s nowhere to sit. Must have sit on the floor. They must have sat on the floor and must have been very uncomfortable but I suppose it’s only a three hour trip so they were probably glad to, to, to suffer the conditions. But I often wondered that, you know, it must have been extremely uncomfortable. Particularly if they weren’t feeling too well with air sickness and that kind of thing, you know. But that’s what we usually did. We usually had a night, as I say, in Italy and I recall we were probably going to Naples. We had some few adventures in Naples with various [unclear] I don’t know what I was thinking about there but [pause] I remember going into a shop to buy something and with a few other people and somebody stole a knife. Had picked the knife up and must have taken it out. One of the people I was with. And this shopkeeper noticed it. And he got really upset. I thought oh we’re in trouble here. You know, we got out pretty quick. He didn’t follow us God he was annoyed. And I remember on one occasion we went to the opera. The Opera House in Naples. What’s it called? I don’t know. But we went to the opera which was a new experience for me. I’d never been to the opera before.
BH: I wanted to ask you really about your social life. That’s the wrong word. Non-operational life when you were operating with 582. What did you do when you were off duty?
BH: Well, you would normally, when you sort of started your day you would check in each mess. When there was an operation on there was a notice posted in the officer’s mess and the sergeant’s mess. If there was an operation on that day they would give you all the details. First of all they would give you the crews that were on there. The time of take-off, time of the meal, the flying meal that is before the thing and briefing. Time of briefing. All that kind of information. If you weren’t on it well that was the signal usually to go in to Bedford or St Neots. They were the places that we frequented most. Bedford moreso I think. Drinking or dancing. Plenty of dancing going on in Bedford I remember. Our skipper had a car actually which we normally all packed in. We went out as a crew mostly. Johnny Campbell had a motorbike also but if we were going into Bedford we’d probably go in the skipper’s car. You know. Seven of us in it. A bit overloaded but not everybody went every time I suppose but he had this car so that was the usual thing. To Bedford. St Neots was not a bad place. There was only pubs there but that was about it. Drinking weak beer in St Neots or Bedford. Or dancing as I say. There was quite a lot of dancing.
JM: And you must have had the experience of hearing of the loss of friends of yours.
BH: Yes. I lost [pause] well I lost a very dear friend in training actually. I think it was at OTU. No. Not OTU. Yeah, I guess it must have been OTU. We were flying in the, yeah it was a training exercise. It was in the St Ives area. That’s the St Ives near to Huntingdon. Not the one in Cornwall. We did a lot in that area. And his name was Hopkins. He was a wireless operator as well. He came from South Wales. And he was on the same operations as I was. Flying in Ansons. And he just didn’t, he crashed somewhere in that area and didn’t come back. But you know operationally you were losing friends all the time. You never got really to know anybody that well because you know you weren’t together that long. You had a lot of acquaintances but not a lot of friends. I mean, your closest friends were your crew.
JM: So we’re now up to the summer of 1945. Did you stay with the RAF?
BH: Well, I only stayed because I had to. Right after the war Canadians were back to Canada just like that. They were back the same month almost. So all my crew left right away, you know. Probably during May even and so we were transferred to various things. I remember going to Graveley [pause] yeah. To Graveley. Was posted from Little Staughton to Graveley and I think we did a couple of these trips to [pause] to Italy from there. With a different crew of course. But then later on — well before that we were actually, the buzz was that we were going to go to the Far East. The Japanese war was still going on obviously and crews were being trained to go out to the Far East. But in the meantime there was a tour of Brazil being arranged and this was — during the war Brazil was very helpful to the United Kingdom. They opened their ports to our ships. Particularly for repairs and stuff like that. Air Chief Marshall Harris decided that he would make a goodwill tour of Brazil and crews were selected. One was, there were three crews to go with him. With Harris. I think one was from 5 Group, one was from 8 Group which was Pathfinders and one was from 1 Group. So there were various criteria for this. I don’t quite know what they were. But one of the criteria I do remember was that we had some civilian clothes and I happened to have some and I sort of volunteered this and I was selected as the wireless operator from Pathfinder Force. And we had a pilot from 582 Squadron as well I suppose. Now, this was, nobody was quite sure what was going to happen but in the end it turned out to be quite a trip. We were to fly in three adapted Lancasters which had been painted white actually. And the interiors had been fitted to accommodate various people. They put some seating in of some kind. I don’t know how they did it exactly but, you know, I can’t imagine Harris sort of [laughs] sitting on the main spar or something like that but obviously they did rig up some kind of seating. Because there was Harris and he had quite a lot of aides obviously and we had to carry our own ground staff with us because during the flight out we had to service. Do our own servicing. So there was a lot of ground crew as well. But I recall we were there more or less when the Olympic Games were on. This year. That period. Their winter actually. Winter in the southern hemisphere. The end of July beginning of August. But it was quite a route and quite an experience really because for one thing we had to fly across the South Atlantic which had never been done before. The route we took was down [pause] we took off from St Mawgan in Cornwall. Flew down the [pause] we had to be careful where we were flying. The military weren’t allowed to fly over certain countries, you know. I think Portugal in particular. So we had to skirt Spain and Portugal and fly down the — we landed first in Morocco. I remember spending the night in Morocco and then the next one was down in Bathurst. I think it’s changed its name now. Bathurst in West Africa which was the westernmost point of Africa. That being chosen to make it as short as possible the crossing. And I do remember there we had great difficulty in finding the airport because it’s jungle there and if you’re flying over what looks like trees all the time trying to find a place where there’s a clearing which would be the airport. But we got there eventually and from Bathurst we flew across the South Atlantic but they made special arrangements for that I remember. The Brazilians spaced three destroyers at intervals across the South Atlantic in case there was any problems. I think we flew from Bathurst to [pause] was it Natal or Recif? Natal I think it was. Which was in Northern Brazil. And from there down to Rio de Janeiro where we were to stay while we were feted. Well, sort of followed Harris around. He was feted and we sort of hung on to his coat tails and got all the festivities and so on that went on. One thing I do recall about Rio. The airport there, it was more or less inside Rio. Still there I think. I remember seeing it on the map of the Olympics this year. It’s called Santos Dumont, after the pioneer. But it had water at both ends and quite a short runway. So, you know, it was tricky landing but we landed there because we wanted to keep the aircraft there because later, at later dates we were going to give access to people. To show, to show the aircraft to the people in that area. But that was quite a thing. We stayed there. We had all kinds of dinners and visits and this kind of thing. Entertained at barbecues. We flew down to Sao Paulo. To Port Alegre. We were assigned a Brazilian Air Force Captain, he was. Captain Umberto I remember his name was. He had a plane that he flew us around in. A twin engine Beechcraft. And we were flown around various functions. As I say to Sao Paulo and Port Alegre. But that was a marvellous time really. We stayed, I think the visit lasted about four weeks. But when the time came to leave one of the Lancasters became unserviceable and needed an engine change. And we were selected to stay behind with it which [laughs] was no great imposition really, I suppose. So we were there for another couple of weeks because they had to fly this engine in from Canada. So we had to wait for the engine to be flown down from Canada and then put in by the ground staff of course before we were able to leave. So we had another couple of weeks. I mean all the official stuff had finished by then so we were given a daily allowance I think it was to sort of feed ourselves and so on because before everything had been on the Brazilian government and that kind of thing. But when we took off to leave you couldn’t take off from Santos Dumont with a full load of petrol because the runway was too short. You had to have a minimum and we flew to another airport outside of Brazil which I think is now the international airport. And, you know, to refuel there before we flew on. Flew back. Flew — where did we go? To Recife again I think. And then to the Bahamas. We missed America. We went straight to Montreal. We never landed in America. Went from Bahamas to Montreal. Goose Bay. Reykjavik and then back to this country.
JM: What an adventure.
BH: It was an adventure. I wrote an account of it at the time. All the journey times and mileage and all that kind of thing but it was quite an adventure.
JM: I must ask you did you form any views of Harris because you travelled with him? What was he like?
BH: I don’t know that I ever really met him. He wasn’t in our aircraft. He flew with a Wing Commander, Swann was his name I think. He flew in the 5 Group aircraft from Wyton. No. I can’t form an opinion of him but he hasn’t had a very good press I don’t think. But I can’t recall speaking to him, say. Something like that or even — we were in his company all the time obviously because we were going to night clubs and that kind of thing and going to ceremonies but we never came in direct contact with him.
JM: So when you got back to Britain after this remarkable journey did you leave the Royal Air Force at that point?
BH: No. I was kept in. I was sent to — the trip to the Far East was gone by then of course because the atomic bomb had been dropped and the Japanese war had finished while we were in Brazil. On August the 8th. We were in Brazil then when the Japanese war ended. No. After that I was posted back to Finningley in Yorkshire where I, I was an instructor. I instructed on various wireless things you know for [pause] well I didn’t come out of the air force ‘til March ’47. So I was at Finningley for possibly six months on these instruction duties.
JM: I think you told us that you were a member of the 582 Association. Did you, did you maintain contact with your crew?
BH: I did because after the war I migrated. I went to Canada because of the influence of this Canadian crew and everything. You know, things after the war were not good. I was discharged, as I say, in the spring of ’47. I stayed at home for about six months working on the family farm but I thought this is not for me and we decided to go to Canada. So I stayed in Canada for about fourteen years. From ’47 to ’61. And during that time I didn’t actually meet with the crew. Only one of the crew. Johnny Campbell the rear gunner was the only one I met with. The rest of them lived out in the west actually. Campbell lived in New Brunswick but the remainder lived in Winnipeg, Vancouver. So I never got out there so I was in contact with, you know it was letters or cards or whatever. But the only one I met personally was Johnny Campbell that saved my life. I saw him a few times. He came. Well he came to, I was in Toronto and he came to work in Toronto actually although he was from New Brunswick. But for a while he came to work for one of the oil companies in Toronto so I saw quite a bit of him then. After I came back I gradually lost contact. I’m not in contact anymore. Probably nobody’s alive anymore I suppose but —
JM: When you look back on that incredible period of your life how do you see things now?
BH: Well, it’s something that you can look back with a certain amount of pleasure and satisfaction I suppose. But whether you’d want to repeat it I don’t know. But I often think that, you know — there was I, nineteen, twenty. With a lot of people all of similar age, you know. Pilots, perhaps a bit older than us because they had a longer training. But pilots of a four engine bomber with responsibility for seven crew. You know, people, people twenty two say. Twenty one, twenty two, twenty three like that. It was certainly an experience, but I think of my own grandson at times and I think when he was nineteen. When I was his age he didn’t, would he have been fit to go and do what I did. Would people nowadays at nineteen, twenty go and do what I did. It’s remarkable really how young we were and the responsibilities that we had at that age. Which, I’m sure, you know whether people would take to it today the same I really don’t know. But it’s an experience you wouldn’t have missed. But whether you’d, as I say, you’d volunteer for it again I don’t know. It’s certainly something that, you know has [pause] given me a lot of friends over the period. A lot of contacts and events to attend and that kind of thing. You know, I’ve always felt part of the RAF family since and I’ve always been going to any events that were planned via the squadron basis or whatever. Bomber Command basis. I belonged to Bomber Command. They had their own Association as well. So I used to belong to that as well. They used to have functions at Hendon and places like that. So, you know, it’s been life enhancing. There’s no doubt about it.
JM: Did you get your clasp?
BH: Yes. Yeah.
JM: Was that presented to you or —?
BH: No. I wrote off. I had to write off for it but I’ve got it.
JM: How do you feel about the way that Bomber Command was treated?
BH: I think we were treated fairly shabbily but I think it made some part reconciliation but not as we felt it should be. I felt we should have got some kind of campaign medal. And to his credit Harris always, I think he was the problem. He had disagreements with so many people. If you’ve ever read his biography or any biographies of the campaign that he was a difficult man to deal with and fell out with a lot of people. And a lot of people didn’t agree with what he did. The type of, you know this area bombing which, you know rather than strategic bombing. All the blame was put on him which I’m sure it wasn’t. It was further up. I don’t think he decided policy. He carried it out but he didn’t decide the policy. But I think he was treated pretty shabbily too. But —
JM: Bill, I think this would be a good place to finish. Thank you so much. You’ve given us a very full, thorough, detailed and very moving account of your service with Bomber Command. Thank you indeed.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with William Hough
Creator
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Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHoughWJ160905
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:26:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Hough came from a farming background, went to a local grammar school in Northwich and was a member of the Air Training Corps. He joined the RAF in 1943. He describes his initial training at Bridgnorth. Bill then goes into the continuation training then going to wireless school where he became a wireless operator and air gunner. Bill was then part of 8 OTU (Operational Training Unit) where they flew Wellington’s, then the HCU (Heavy Conversion Unit) flying Halifaxes. Bill then went to Finishing School and flew Lancaster’s. A part of the Pathfinders, Bill flew with 582 squadron. Bill then reminisces his operations, one of which where his aircraft was attacked by a Messerschmitt 262. Bill then details being shot down and his experiences of getting back to Britain through Belgium, where he stayed with American forces and recalled that they were much better fed. Bill took part in Operation Manna and details the experiences of anti-aircraft fire. Bill also recollects his squadron and the Victoria Cross recipient, South African Captain Swales, Bill did not have close contact with him but knew he was well liked. Bill also remembers another Victoria Cross recipient, Squadron Leader Palmer, who was a pilot in 109 Squadron but was flying with 582 Squadron and a 582 aircraft at the time. He also describes his experiences when he was off-duty and often went to Bedford and St. Neots to drink and dance. Bill later details his experiences after the war and being selected to go on a goodwill tour to Brazil with Air Marshall Sir Arthur Harris and was in Brazil when the war in Asia ended. After instruction duties, Bill emigrated to Canada and stayed for fourteen years, and met Air Gunner Johnny Campbell who saved his life. Bill’s interview finishes with the legacy of Bomber Command and receiving his medal clasp.
Contributor
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Benjamin Turner
1656 HCU
576 Squadron
582 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 262
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Castle Kennedy
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Lindholme
RAF Little Staughton
RAF Worksop
RAF Yatesbury
shot down
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
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8f465cc3d7c812b00cee04912bd3f2d6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/920/11165/ALawrenceJ170510.1.mp3
e51fceacb81837afefd0f45e304345bb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lawrence, Lawrie
Jack Lawrence
J Lawrence
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Jack 'Lawrie' Lawrence (b.1919, 533877 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator air gunner with 61 and 83 Squadrons. He was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lawrence, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is Lawrie Lawrence. The interview is taking place at Mr Lawrence’s home in Sevenoaks in Kent on the 10th of May 2017. So, Lawrie if you could perhaps tell me a little bit about where and where you were born and your early life.
LL: Well, I was born in this little town, Ossett. I just did the normal schooling. Grammar School. Worked for a year and then joined the Air Force.
DM: What did you do when you worked for the first time around?
LL: Oh well, I did a little, an electrician. And when I was seventeen and a quarter that August, joined. I could join the RAF.
DM: And why did you want to join the RAF?
LL: I wanted to fly. When I joined they said, ‘What do you want to be?’ I said, ‘A pilot.’ He said, ‘Well, do you want to make a career of the Air Force?’ I said, ‘Yes, of course. He said, ‘Well, don’t be a pilot. Go to Cranwell. Be a wireless operator or something.’ Which I did.
DM: And that was ok with you was it? You —
LL: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: You weren’t too disappointed?
LL: No. Well, I was a bit disappointed but he said there was no career. A pilot was four years on, six years off. That was it. So I had no choice actually.
DM: So how long was the training at Cranwell? Can you remember?
LL: A year.
DM: And then what happened?
LL: Then I was posted to Hemswell. They had old biplanes. Just getting rid of them, and we got Ansons which were just coming into service. It was just like flying in a flying club. Weekends we’d give displays everywhere. It was very nice indeed.
DM: How many crew in an Anson?
LL: Well, we flew with three but you could fly with two. But that was it. It was like being in a flying club. I used to go up, take one out on weekends. Go out and see friends. It was, it was very nice. But then we got Blenheims and that was the start of the trouble. We filled the graveyard at Hemswell Cemetery. Crashing. Crashing. Crashing. I’ve got photographs somewhere. This is a book. My daughter made me write it.
DM: Is that your memoir basically.
LL: Yes. What I could remember. They were not bad to fly in but they were very dangerous because they were the first Blenheims produced. That was about it.
DM: So this was a Mark 1 Blenheim obviously.
LL: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: Yes. Were you based at Hemswell the whole time with, with —
LL: I was at Hemswell. Yes. We got the Blenheims. We didn’t have them very long and we got the Hampdens of course. And I was suddenly posted from Hemswell to Waddington. I went to the, formed the what we called the little high speed flight at Waddington. We went and collected a new Blenheim and we were briefed to fly to Africa. And we were detailed for September the 4th.
DM: What year was this?
LL: ’39.
DM: Right.
LL: But of course the war broke out on September the 3rd so we suddenly flew back to Hemswell and we were operational. And we took off and made our first flight in February.
DM: Can you remember how you felt when war was declared? You know. What? Was it an exciting time? A frightening time?
LL: Just a normal time quite truthfully. Until February because we didn’t do, we didn’t go into, we never made a bombing flight until February.
DM: So, what were you doing between September and February?
LL: Just training.
DM: And that was still at Hemswell.
LL: Yes. Yes.
DM: Ok. So, if we go forward to February 1940 then.
LL: Right.
DM: What was your first sortie? You first mission.
LL: Oh. I can’t, can’t remember.
DM: It was a bombing mission.
LL: Oh yes. It was a bombing mission. And I’d been with this crew for three years. We had no trouble bombing aerodromes and things like that. We didn’t see, didn’t see much action. But getting, getting there at night was a bit of a trouble [laughs] Frightening the place.
DM: So how many of you in the crew?
LL: Four. And we never saw anybody from take-off to landing. We were all separated. Yeah.
DM: And how many missions did you fly on that first?
LL: Pardon?
DM: How many missions did you fly on your first?
LL: I flew thirty seven. I should have stopped at thirty but something happened. I went on to thirty seven. By which time we were, the crew had been together all that time and we were doing quite well finding targets, dropping our bombs. One morning we thought we’d got to Blackpool but it was the tower in Paris.
Other: Arc de Triomphe. .
LL: Pardon?
Other: Arc de Triomphe.
LL: Yeah. Arc de Triomphe.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. We were flying around it before — we thought we were in Blackpool. Things like that happened.
DM: Right. Yeah. That was, that would have been a bit worrying wouldn’t it? So when you came to the end of those thirty seven.
LL: My tour. Yes.
DM: Yeah. That tour. Yes. You obviously had some leave.
LL: I went to Upper Heyford as an instructor.
DM: Right. Ok. And instructing on wireless or gunning or — ?
LL: On everything to do with flying. Yeah.
DM: What did you think of that?
LL: A bit fed up actually. A bit dangerous too because sometimes you met a pilot who had never flown one before. And so after three months I volunteered to go back on flying and I was sent to Scampton. 83 Squadron. And I went with my pilot and we had to form C Flight. We ‘d got brand new crews coming in. We had to train them. It was a pretty dangerous sort of job.
DM: So that was just as dangerous as the job before.
LL: It was [laughs] Yes.
DM: But you had the same pilot as you had the first time around.
LL: I had the same pilot. We, we started, we formed the flight. C Flight. 83. And on our sixth flight we were attacked by a Messerschmitt. Messerschmitt. We never saw him. He opened fire and the port wing was completely on fire. The engine was hanging down and I was on the floor of the cockpit. A bullet had taken off my left part of my ear.
DM: But it didn’t take your ear off obviously.
LL: It didn’t. No. But it deafened it. Yeah.
DM: Was that the first time in all your missions you’d been attacked by another aircraft?
LL: No. We were attacked by a Dutch fighter before Holland came into the war.
DM: That was more of a warning was it?
LL: Fired back at him and he just waved to us and went off. Yeah. And we had [pause] we landed all over the place. We’d done, we’d done six.
DM: So this was your forty third trip.
LL: I’m trying to remember. Yes. Before I left [pause] before I left Hemswell I had a bad attack of pleurisy.
DM: Oh right.
LL: They took me off a flight and as I went to [pause] my crew flew. And then they gave me another crew but when I, when I was sick for a fortnight my crew was shot down. And the chap who took my place lost his left arm on his first trip.
DM: Did your crew survive?
LL: The pilot. The pilot was, yeah but on my second tour when we were shot down the pilot was killed.
DM: What about your old crew when the chap who replaced you lost his arm? So he obviously survived.
LL: They were prisoners of war.
DM: They were all prisoners of war.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Right.
LL: Yeah.
LL: So, ok so if we come forward now again to when you were shot down.
DM: Yeah.
LL: You were attacked by a Messerschmitt.
DM: Yes.
LL: The plane was badly damaged.
DM: [unclear]
LL: You were on the floor with your ear piece missing.
DM: Yeah.
LL: What happened next?
DM: Well, I shouted. There was nobody answering me so I just assumed everybody had baled out except, you know. So I baled out. I got out at about thirteen thousand feet so I was alright.
Other: And the rest of them?
LL: Pardon? Well, I didn’t, I didn’t, I never saw them again.
DM: Right. So, at that moment you didn’t know whether they’d survived or whether they hadn’t. Obviously later on you found out.
LL: Not at that moment. I didn’t know. I knew they’d gone.
DM: Yes.
LL: But I didn’t know what had, what had happened to them.
DM: Right. Ok.
LL: I landed in a field in Holland and I was in a hell of a mess. My right ankle was [pause] wasn’t broken but it was —
DM: That was from the parachute landing was it?
LL: Yes. Yeah. Parachute landing. So I went to the nearest house, knocked at the door and a chap came and [noise] so I told him who I was and he invited me in. And I don’t know what happened but I was busy stuffing all my gear into their fire and the Germans arrived. I don’t know where. They’d come from the guardroom, they said which was about fifty yards away.
DM: Oh right. So, you were in a, were you in, actually in a camp?
LL: Yes. But I was on the borders of it. Yeah.
DM: And what sort of a camp was it?
LL: I don’t know.
DM: A labour camp I suppose, was it?
LL: I have no idea.
DM: Right. So they arrived and arrested you obviously.
LL: They arrested me. Yes. They were charming.
DM: Really.
LL: Absolutely charming. Yes. And they took me to their guardroom and I met a young man there who had been to college in England.
DM: A German.
LL: A German. He gave me a tin of Woodbines. I’ll never forget that. I was talking to him. Suddenly the door flung open. In come the Luftwaffe. They started to knock me around. They took me in a car. They took me to their headquarters and I was just in solitary.
DM: So, how, were you sort of put in solitary confinement?
LL: Yes. Yes. And then I was interrogated by, I call him a gentleman. He said he was the Red Cross representative and he seemed to know more about my squadron then I did. I kept my mouth shut and I stayed there for about a week.
DM: Before you, before you were captured had you had training back in England about what the interrogation process would be?
LL: Nothing.
DM: Nothing at all.
LL: Nothing. It was going but I’d never had one. No. No.
DM: So you didn’t know what to expect.
LL: I didn’t. Absolutely not. I didn’t. I was quite raw. Yeah. And [pause] that’s right, then they sent me to Dulag Luft by train.
DM: Where? Do you know whereabouts? Is that in Germany or what?
LL: Germany.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. It was the camp where all, all prisoners went through.
DM: Right.
LL: [unclear] When I got to Dulag Luft I thought I was going to be interviewed by an officer and they showed me into this room and the officer was this bloke who told me he was the Red Cross representative.
DM: Same man.
LL: So I wasn’t very good mannered and I was given a fortnights solitary confinement [laughs]
DM: And were you in Dulag Luft for very long?
LL: I was there about a month I think.
DM: What was life like there? Was —apart from the solitary confinement of course.
LL: Well, it was up and down. For instance when I came through, or rather when I left Holland they sent me to Amsterdam. I beg your pardon. I’d forgotten that. I went to Amsterdam. I was in a prison there and this young Rhodesian chap came and he was in Stalag 3 and we were quite friendly. A nice chap. He said he’d baled out of a Manchester. And when we got to, he travelled to Dulag Luft. When we got to Dulag Luft there was another crew of a Manchester there and they told him after he’d baled out the pilot changed his mind and just flew back. So, he was a different person altogether then. And when I was in the Amsterdam prison in solitary I met a chap called Peter Thomas. And we could talk through the wire. I’ll never forget. He said he would never escape. He’d just passed his intermediate solicitor and when he was going, when he was in the camp he was going to study and when he got back to England he could become and full time solicitor. Then he was going to get into parliament. And he said, ‘I’ve got to get a very safe seat. And when I’m in parliament the Prime Minister will [unclear] for me. And I met him again long, long after the war and it had all come true. He was walking down the street with Neville Heath and he was the deputy. He was Deputy Prime Minister and became Foreign Secretary for a while. Peter Thomas.
DM: Amazing.
LL: He was an amazing chap. Yeah. I just saw him then but he’d made his mind up. This was ’41. August ’41. Yeah. He was an interesting chap. Yeah.
DM: So, Amsterdam. You were there for a little while.
LL: About a month I think, you see, yes.
DM: And was that an Air Force camp or was it a —
LL: It was. It was an Air Force. They called it an interview camp. Everybody was interviewed by a representative supposedly of the Red Cross. Things like that. Who knew more about what was happening than he did. And we were all very raw. Who did I meet? I met one or two well-known people. Bader.
DM: Oh, he was in there.
LL: He was there. Just went through. Yeah. And then we were separated one morning and said we were going to the, to an Air Force camp and as I was a senior and I was a flight sergeant, everybody else were sergeants we were put on a train and we went to a place. Stalag 357. It was an Army camp and we got moved into a room full of Air Force who had been naughty boys at a camp in Barth. Stalag Luft 1. And we were not treated very well.
DM: But you weren’t naughty boys.
LL: Pardon?
DM: You hadn’t been naughty boys there had you?
LL: No. But they had you see.
DM: Yeah.
LL: And they was held there.
DM: And you were treated the same as they were.
LL: Yes. Yes. And I met one chap coming down and he was interested in escaping. So we talked about it and talked about it. Anyway, we decided we’d change identities with a private soldier. And we were very lucky. A gang of New Zealanders had just arrived from Crete and they were in a hell of a mess. They just wanted to sit down. So I found a man who wanted to change identities. And a football match was arranged. A fight broke out and while that was, while the Germans were dealing with that I was changing my beautiful blue into his flea ridden khaki and I went back to the Army compound. He went back to the Air Force compound. And Jock, he also changed over. He became Army. So there were two of us.
DM: And why did you decide you wanted to be in that barracks.
LL: Because if you were a private soldier you could volunteer to go out to work. And if you get a working party of less than fifteen you only had one guard. Which made escaping pretty simple, I must admit.
DM: Right.
LL: Yeah.
DM: So obviously nobody gave you away. None of, none of the people in the camp.
LL: The only thing that happened was I’d been there about a month and they got me out one morning and sent me down to the hospital. I didn’t know what was going on and daren’t say anything. Anyway, a doctor came in and said, ‘Shave.’ ‘Oh, thank you sir.’ So I shaved my beard off. And he gave me, he shouted a load at me. He said, ‘Shave down there.’ They were going to circumcise me. This bloke had gone sick in Crete. His papers had just caught up with him. They were posted. I’d had it done many many years ago. Anyway, the Germans wouldn’t believe their papers were incorrect. Never would. So it took a bit of talking out of.
DM: But you managed to talk them out of it.
LL: I managed it. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
DM: So did you go out on a few working parties before you tried to escape?
LL: Well, I started. We started looking around for a working party and then we came into our first difficulty. We were with the Army now and the people in charge of all this stuff had been caught in Dunkirk, the early part of the war. And they were living like kings. They had their own beds and everything. They were in the same hut as all the food was stored. So if they were hungry they just went and helped themselves. And when they heard we were there to try to escape which would cause trouble they were non-cooperative. I’ll come to this a bit later on. Saved my life this, but they were uncooperative. We just found one sergeant. He’d been caught early and he fixed us up with a working party. And off we went [unclear]
[recording paused]
DM: You went on a working party. You went out on a working party.
LL: We went on this working party at the house.
DM: Can you remember what you went to do? What the work was?
LL: Oh, my God [laughs] I’m trying. I’m sorry about this.
DM: Oh, don’t worry. Don’t worry.
LL: Oh yes. Yes. This was a working party in a small village. A very small village. And they had been formed of privates caught in the beginning of the war and they were having a hell of a time. A good time. And one bloke who was there couldn’t read and couldn’t write. That was the type they were. And on a Saturday two of them were allowed to go to the local and have a beer. I was astounded at all this. And I was working on a quarry. I had to push for these things. Anyway, we decided we’d get away and one night, in those days you all slept together and your clothes were in a room with bars.
DM: So they locked your clothes away.
LL: Yeah. So we get [Maximal?] managed to hide them. Anyway, we were, we sawed through the window in the afternoon, half way through, steel things. And that night our one guard was asleep you see. We tried, I tried to get through the bars and all the wall came down [laughs] Anyway, we got away and we were walking more or less due east. We, we were heading for Yugoslavia and we, on the map we had a lake marked out where the Sunderlands were flying. Landing arms for Tito. And we wanted to get there by Czechoslovakia. Anyway, we walked as the crow flies. If we came to a river we swam it. If we came to a bridge we had to go underneath it and we never saw a soul. We used to start walking at 10 o’clock. Finish at five. Find a place to hide for the day. And then go on the next day.
DM: What did you do for food?
LL: We carried it. We carried quite a bit of food with us that we’d found in this working party. And one day we were going along and because we’d left the train and everything so we reckoned we were very near [unclear] and the border in to Czechoslovakia. And we were resting during the day as usual and a chap came up and smiled at me. So I smiled back and he went away. And we had a little natter the two of us. We said, ‘Has he gone for help? Has he gone to tell the Germans? Is he not going to bother doing anything?’ So we decided we would wait and see. And we were wrong. We were surrounded by Germans. They thought we were Russian parachutists. Anyway, the policeman they brought with them, he was, he was a nice gentleman. He said he’d lock us up but before he took us to his police station he took me around the back and shook hands with me. He was [pause] And then went to the police station and then we were interviewed by the Gestapo for the next, oh ten days. Knocked around a bit of course and then they decided we were what we said we were. Two private soldiers. And we were sent back to the camp. And on the way we were on a train, we had a the guard and we got off the train and there was a man sat there with his luggage and he said, ‘Hey, you blokes, come and carry my luggage.’ He spoke English. We said, ‘Oh, get lost.’ Anyway. when we got to the camp he was the war officer. I finished up with a month solitary [laughs] So I did solitary and then went back into the camp again.
DM: And you were still a New Zealand private.
LL: Yes. Oh yes.
DM: As far as the Germans were concerned.
LL: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then after we put our names down for a working party again and they said, ‘You’re not worth it. It’s not worth it.’ Anyway, one night this sergeant came to see us. He said, ‘I’ve got two vacancies in a party made up by fourteen privates.’ But they were all commandoes. They’d been caught on the raid to St Nazaire so, you know, they were wonderful to be with.
DM: Yes.
LL: People of the same mind. And we were posted. We were sent to Görlitz. It was an Elementary Flying School. So of course we told them who we were and everything. And the idea was we would try and steal an aircraft because they were all over the place. But we found out that they always stored their aircraft with empty tanks. Now, in the Air Force you always left your aircraft with full tanks. They stored them empty. So it was a no go. And we worked there for two or three months I think it was.
DM: What sort of work was that?
LL: Oh, anything they could find. My job was every day I had to get these two oxon, we named them Spit and Cough and then had to collect a German guard and we’d to go down to the nearest town, collect the rations, drive them back. That was my day’s work. I was very lucky. And one of them, one of the chaps there was an ex-cook from Savoy. So we really, we did live well. We’d no [unclear] We did very well there. And then we decided we would escape. So one night —
DM: Was this just the two of you again or —
LL: No. Two commandoes were coming with us. So, one night we got out, a simple sort of through, you know barbed wire and everything. And we were told that we were on top of a mountain and there were three ranges so the idea was to walk down and up and rest the next day. But when we got to the first range we could see eleven more [laughs] So we were doing that. Walking. What happened to us then? [pause] During, during the day we covered ourselves up with foliage. At night —
DM: Had you taken food with you again?
LL: Oh yes. The Savoy.
DM: He’d made meals for you?
LL: Because I was driving the rations back. So harmless I could slip a few into this thing or hide it in the cart or give the rest to the Germans.
DM: What direction were you heading this time?
LL: Czechoslovakia.
DM: Right.
LL: Yeah.
[recording paused]
LL: We came to the River Oder where we had a shave and a clean up and swam across it.
DM: What were you, what were you wearing? Because obviously you weren’t in a uniform.
LL: Oh, these khaki shorts and —
DM: So you were sort of —
LL: That’s all I had. Yeah.
DM: Right.
LL: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: Which is I suppose one of the reasons you had to travel by night.
LL: Pardon?
DM: That’s one of the reasons you had to travel by night.
LL: Yes. Yes.
DM: Yes.
[pause]
LL: Caught near [unclear] on the border.
DM: How did that come about this time?
LL: It was the local gendarmerie caught us again. And then we were, we were taken to a place called Ollmuth and was delivered into the hands of the Gestapo.
DM: Again.
LL: Again. Yeah. And then after a few days we went back to the thing.
DM: So, I mean you said the first time when you were being interviewed by the Gestapo —
LL: Yeah.
DM: They knocked you around a bit. Was it the same the second time? Similar techniques or —
LL: Similar techniques. Just the same more or less. Yes.
DM: They didn’t think you were paratroopers this time. Or did they?
LL: Pardon?
DM: Did they think you were, you were paratroopers again or did they think you were just escaped prisoners?
LL: Just escaped privates.
DM: Yes.
LL: And I was a New Zealander with a Yorkshire accent.
DM: Which I suppose they didn’t know.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. I missed quite a lot out quite truthfully.
DM: Well, you can go back.
[pause]
LL: Far more detail in there than I can remember [pause] When we were, when we were taken, being taken back to Landsdorf on the train. We got off the train and they took two of us to a house. They took us downstairs, put us in a cellar, there was no bed. Nothing. And we were there and we had one meal a day. And then on the Sunday they called me out. Took me to the bottom of the garden and said, ‘Stand there.’ That was 8 o’clock. At 9 o’clock six Army, six Army arrived with rifles and this bloke said I’d been looked at, investigated and I was going to be shot. This was 10 o’clock. And at 12 o’clock —
Other: Morning or night?
LL: Pardon?
Other: Morning or night? Morning or night?
LL: Morning.
Other: Morning.
LL: And at 12 o’clock I was stood there. The Army was stood there. A Luftwaffe officer arrived and said, ‘Come with me.’ Took me, and they took me back to the cellar. And I never knew why I wasn’t shot until three weeks —
DM: Three weeks ago.
LL: Yeah. There was a programme on TV. It was called shot soldiers or something. It appears that Hitler had, after the Great Escape from the thing he said anybody who escaped and was shot was to be, anybody that escaped and caught was to be shot. And the Gestapo was to carry out the shooting. Anyway, the Gestapo refused to do the shooting and that’s why I wasn’t shot.
DM: Right. So the fact that the Luftwaffe officer, it wasn’t because they’d discovered you were an airman.
LL: Pardon? No. that was —
DM: That was just coincidence.
LL: Just coincidence. He had an idea I think. And it appears that according to the dates that Hitler made this order, the Gestapo refused on the Saturday and I was on this to be shot on the Sunday. And they took me back to the cellar. Threw me in the cellar and that was it. He said, he said I’d been court martialled.
DM: In your absence obviously.
LL: In my absence. Yeah. And that was it.
DM: So, eventually they took you from that house back on the train, did they?
LL: Back on the train. And when I got on the train it was a truck and it had a barbed wire roof. So they put my hands through the barbed wire and handcuffed me. I travelled like that for twelve hours. Yeah. By which time I couldn’t care less they’d knocked me about so much. Anyway, I got back to Landsdorf. Yeah.
DM: So, you’ve escaped twice.
LL: Yes.
DM: Been caught twice.
LL: Yes.
DM: And you’re still a private in the New Zealand —
LL: I was still a private. And, oh then I was, that’s right they found out I was Air Force. I never found out who, how but they said who I was. I was, by this time I was so fed up. I’d been knocked about. I’d been, and I went into solitary confinement and Bader was in the next cell. So I had a natter with him and he tried to change identities.
DM: With you?
LL: No. With a private —
DM: With a private.
LL: Gave the game away. He was a big mouth. A good flyer and everything but one to stay very clear of. And they stuck me in Stalag Luft 3. And I was in the bed by the next door, hut rather and I was a bit brassed off. You know. So I started studying economics and then out of the blue one day they said, ‘You’re going on the train tomorrow to Hedwigenkoog.’ Which was, which was north. And I went to Hedwigenkoog . And this instructor came too so he formed a school. And I studied. Anyway, when I got back, it’s in the book. One day he says, ‘The Germans allowed me to take the exams from Oxford University. But the Germans will be there. You know. Make sure you don’t talk to anybody,’ because there was about eight of us. And we took, we took the exam. I took eight papers and after I’d been home for six months I had a letter from Oxford University to say I’d got honours in six. Yeah. Anyway, we stayed at this Hedwigenkoog, and suddenly we heard the guns. The Russian guns. So the Germans got us out quickly and marched off the road. And we were in a column and there was a column in front of us of people who had been prisoners a year more than me. And there was, and so Spitfires arrived and shot up the column with the oldest in and killed about a hundred. Yeah. We were only about a hundred yards behind. Very lucky. Anyway, we decided that we’d, we’d had enough so one night we deserted the column.
DM: And when you say we, who was —
LL: Two of us.
DM: Right.
LL: Two of us. And we walked on. That’s right. We kept going and we got to the German lines and up ahead we heard a bit of a battle going on. And it was a small village and there was a tank. A battle between Canadian tanks and German tanks. So then we waited for that to finish and then we walked down and met the Canadians and told them who we were. They said, ‘Well, look what are you going to do now?’ I said, ‘We’re going to walk to the Rhine and get across.’ They said, ‘Look, there’s a brand new Mercedes in that garage. Go get it and we’ll fill it full of petrol.’ So we got this new Merc out of this garage. The owner was shaking his fist at us. And they filled it full of petrol and we got to the Rhine but we couldn’t go across. There was only traffic in one direction. So we swapped it for a camera and walked across. I got to the nearest aerodrome and got a lift back and landed at a little place called Wing. And we were jolly and the WAAF were there to kiss you and everything. And then I was asked to go to the Endsleigh Hotel in London. I said, ‘Well, what’s, what’s wrong?’ ‘Oh, we want to interview you.’ Anyhow, I got to the Endsleigh Hotel. Nothing happened for about a week. And suddenly one morning I was taken to this office of a genera and he was asking me all about when I was a private. You know, a private soldier and what I did and everything. And he started picking. Picking holes. So, I said, ‘Look, you know your blokes were the least, you know the biggest worry in Germany were your blokes. They were having such a good time there wasn’t one of them fit to go. None of them would help us. Only the people caught in Dunkirk I think.’ Anyway, one bloke turned out to be warrant officer Sheriff. And he’d just been given the OBE. So my temper really let go. And it appears I was seeing this general, they were thinking of giving me medal. I don’t know what. Conspicuous Gallantry medal. Something like, like that. But the general told me to get out. [unclear]
DM: So do you think someone had given bad reports about you? Somebody —
LL: No. The general. I shouted my head off.
DM: Right.
LL: I was a fool. I was there. I was so [pause] this bloke was building the Army up to me and I’d had no help from the Army whatsoever. In fact just the opposite apart from one sergeant. And I told the general. He wouldn’t believe me. I lost my temper because I’d just been home for a short time. I wasn’t really myself. And he said, ‘Get out.’ So I got out. Never heard any more.
DM: So where did you go? Went back to —
LL: I went home and then a posting came through. I forget where it was.
DM: Had you found out by then what had happened —
LL: Pardon?
DM: Had you found out by then what had happened to the rest of your crew?
LL: Yes. I got the address of my pilot. He was buried in —
DM: Oh right. So you —
LL: Yeah.
DM: You had a letter that told you —
LL: Only the pilot. The other two I never, never —
DM: But the other two survived did they?
LL: I presume so.
DM: You didn’t run across them before or after.
LL: No. No. I never saw them again because I was in this Army camp for and attached to it for two years. So, I don’t know where they got to. But I’ve been to my pilot’s grave.
DM: And where’s that?
LL: There you are.
DM: What does it say? [pause] Holland. Jonkerbos War Cemetery in Nijmegen.
LL: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: So you have visited him.
LL: Yes. Yes. I have. Yeah.
DM: So where were you posted after you came home?
LL: Oh.
[pause]
LL: Oh, I was posted to a place called Bromley.
DM: Right.
LL: Which was a, one of these plotting stations. Plotting. It was a big house which had been taken over and it was a plotter and I was, I was duty officer for eight hours.
DM: Were you still a flight sergeant?
LL: I was warrant officer.
DM: A warrant officer.
LL: A warrant officer. Yeah. And I was there some time. I think from down there I went down to [pause] I can’t remember now [rustling papers] From Oxford you see. That’s the post I actually got [unclear] in.
DM: Was examined at Stalag Luft 6. 357.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Under the Authority of the University. Amazing.
LL: That came through, is it March ’64.
DM: It took a while.
LL: Yeah. I was a prisoner. Seven stone seven when I came home. That was me after three weeks, after three months at home.
DM: Fattened up.
LL: Yeah. I went to Biggin Hill, and then North Weald, and then Padgate. And then I was posted to Vienna.
DM: So what date are we?
LL: Pardon?
DM: What date are we now? What year are we in that you went to Vienna? Still 1945?
LL: Yes. And then in Vienna I collapsed. Oh, I got married and we went and I was posted to headquarters in Vienna and I collapsed one day. My lungs were bleeding so they flew me back to Wroughton Hospital. And then they decided I had six months rest. Then they decided that my right shoulder, there was a little, the [scab] was too bad. They had to cut it out. So I went up to, I went to another I can’t remember what hospital it was but it was a civilian hospital. Bader was in next door.
DM: You kept coming across him.
LL: Yeah [laughs] Cheshire, the bloke who had the homes.
DM: Oh, Cheshire.
LL: Cheshire. He was in the next. They treated it like a college but they, it was a wonderful place to be to be quite truthfully. One morning the doctor came around and he was a well-known surgeon of course that specialised in lungs. And he was telling me my budgie’s died, ‘I bet he died from bloody TB.’ And do you know he did a post mortem on my budgie and it was a heart attack. And he was, he was the biggest surgeon in England just about. Oh, and then I was posted to Hendon. At Hendon, I was commissioned now, I was posted to Cyprus. Headquarters Cyprus. And I retired from there.
DM: And what —
LL: As a squadron leader.
DM: And what year did you leave the Air Force?
LL: [unclear] yes.
Other: Oh, a bit later.
DM: So about 1964.
Other: What year did the, what year did Turkey get invaded?
LL: Pardon?
Other: ’71. So —
LL: What year were you born?
Other: ’55.
LL: It was after ’55 then.
Other: Yeah. Yeah. Because I was, you were in Wroughton when I was born.
LL: Yeah.
Other: And then you went to Germany. You are in Wildenrath in Germany. Dusseldorf.
LL: Dusseldorf. Yes.
Other: Then we were in, you were at the Ministry of Defence. We lived in —
LL: Pardon?
Other: Then you were at the Ministry of Defence at [unclear] Aerodrome.
LL: Yes. That’s where I met Peter Thompson. The navigator. That’s right.
Other: Then Hendon.
LL: Then from there I was posted to Cyprus.
Other: From Hendon to Cyprus. Yes. Yeah.
LL: Out there.
Other: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. And I did a tour as squadron leader in charge of all flights in the Near East. Nice posting.
Other: ’67 I think he might have —
LL: Pardon?
Other: Sixty — I think it’s ’64 you must have come out.
DM: So, if I take you back to —
Other: No. It’s later than that. Because I came back to, well you came out of the RAF. I went to Churston and I was —
LL: I came out in ’59.
Other: Yeah. No. No. It was later than ’59.
DM: ’69 probably. ’69.
Other: ’69.
LL: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
DM: So, take you back to 1945.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Why did you decide to stay in the Air Force?
LL: Well, I was, I was a career. I always —
DM: Oh yes. of course you, yes because you joined as a career person when you were seventeen years old. Of course. Yes. Yes.
LL: Yeah. That’s why I became —
DM: So that was always the plan.
LL: That’s why I didn’t go on the pilot’s course, I thought.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Earlier on when we were speaking before we started recording you said that when you, before you joined the Air Force you played Rugby League.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Did you carry on playing rugby through your Air Force career?
LL: Yes. Yes. I played for Cranwell. Yeah. Cranwell Command.
DM: That was Rugby Union.
LL: Rugby Union. Oh, of course.
DM: What position did you play?
LL: Centre.
Other: Eddie Waring was your manager at one time.
LL: That was Dewsbury.
Other: Oh that’s —
LL: That was Rugby League.
DM: That was when you were young man. Yeah.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. And I wasn’t happy in Cyprus. I didn’t feel as though I was getting anywhere. And I wrote to somebody. Anyway, they put me in touch with Barclays Bank and when, when they realised I’d got six honours from Oxford they offered me an immediate job as a first cashier. They said, ‘Where do you want to go?’ And I was mad on sailing because in Cyprus you worked in the mornings and sailed in the afternoon and I was mad on sailing. So I said, ‘I want to go to the seaside.’ So they gave me a choice of three. Anyway, that morning we had to, we were testing our Comet and we flew over Torquay and Paignton and the other one was up on the north coast. Anyway, there was three. But where did we go?
Other: Brixham.
LL: Brixham. Brixham seemed the best to I put in for Brixham. Came down to Brixham and that, moved in to a house and I did ten years.
DM: Always in Brixham.
LL: Pardon?
DM: Always in Brixham.
LL: In Brixham. Yeah. Oh, yes. I was in charge of the bank and that was it. Six years. Until we’d had enough and one day my wife and I were talking and she said, ‘Why don’t we go abroad?’ Anyway, we finished up I retired. We came to Spain and we saw a house half built on the, we arrived on the Sunday, saw the house on the Monday, bought it on the Wednesday [laughs] And in a pub we met a chap who did furnishings and we gave him a cheque. Just gave him a cheque in a pub. Five hundred pounds. And that was June. And we came in September and it was finished, furnished and we were there for ten years. No. Twenty five years.
DM: Whereabouts in Spain was it?
LL: [unclear] which is five or six miles from Malaga. And nothing went wrong with us the whole time. We trusted them, they trusted us and we had a marvellous time until my wife died of heart trouble. And then talked me into coming back out. I was five years by myself but that wasn’t very nice.
DM: In Spain.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Sold it with no trouble. Came back. And that’s it.
DM: Have you kept in touch with the RAF?
LL: Only through the POW. And I got friendly with Charles Clarke, a bloke called Anderson. But there’s not many of us left now. The next reunion is in September I think at Henlow. I shan’t bother. It’s too far to mess around.
Other: We got invited to —
LL: Pardon?
Other: We went to Number 10 though, didn’t we?
LL: Oh, that was that was, yeah. Got especially picked for that. But for the old POW they go to Henlow every year now. They want to stay the weekends. Go in the mess. Too much trouble.
DM: If I can take you right back.
LL: Yes.
DM: To when you were a young.
LL: Please.
DM: Whippersnapper.
LL: Yeah.
DM: Did you have any brothers or sisters?
LL: Sister. Yeah.
DM: And did your dad fight in the First World War do you know?
LL: No.
DM: Serve in the First World War?
LL: No.
DM: He didn’t.
LL: No
DM: So he was the wrong age I guess.
LL: Yes.
DM: So he was one of the lucky ones really.
LL: Yeah. Just worked in a mill.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: What became of your sister?
Other: Your sister was older wasn’t she?
LL: She was a few years older than me. Yeah. When did she die?
Other: She died. Oh, quite a few years ago. She got dementia. Yeah. Very badly.
LL: Yeah.
Other: And was in a home for quite a long time.
LL: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: So, looking back. Do you think, this is probably an unfair question what part of the Air Force was your, was your happiest time?
LL: Oh. Bomber Command before the war. Marvellous.
DM: The flying club era, so to speak. Yeah.
LL: Wonderful. Yeah. Yes. It was wonderful. We were happy all the time but there was no bullshit or anything like that. And it was, it was grand. Yes.
Other: So you used to test the planes then, didn’t you?
LL: Pardon?
Other: You used to test the planes.
LL: Yes. Yes. On my, when I was shot down I was already on my sixth trip and when we formed C Flight, 83 our job was to meet new crews straight from training and take a navigator and a rear gunner, take them up with us for their first trip. So every time I went with my pilot the other two crew were on their first trip. Every time. It was a bit of —
DM: Yeah.
LL: You know. Because we usually, we had so many crashes. We crashed on, the navigator was lost half the time. And after [unclear] one day we crashed on Blackpool Racecourse. We crashed on Shoreham front. We had two bad landings where we wrote the aircraft off. Ran out of petrol. That was the six.
DM: So none of them were pilot error. They were all navigational error and things like that.
LL: Navigation.
DM: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. I used to try and home on places but there were so many other aircraft homing, you know and because as I say when that [unclear] and the tower came up the navigator said, ‘Oh, Blackpool.’
DM: But it was the Eiffel Tower. Yeah.
LL: Yeah. Which I’d flown around in 1938. Below the thing. The celebration of the Bastille.
Other: You flew, you flew through the arch didn’t you?
LL: Pardon?
Other: You flew through the arch.
LL: Oh, that first time. Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
LL: We went around below the tower. Yeah. The three of us.
DM: So to be clear when you were shot down which was on your second tour but the —
LL: Yes.
DM: That Was with a raw crew as well? Was it?
LL: Yeah.
DM: Just you and the pilot —
LL: That’s right.
DM: Were the only two experienced members of the crew.
LL: That’s right.
DM: You were the only experienced member of the crew who survived
LL: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Six trips. We did six trips and each time we had to take a brand new navigator, a brand new air gunner and keep telling them all the way how to climb around, keep looking around out there. It wasn’t very nice but it was a job to be done and we did it. Yeah.
DM: But you must have wondered, why you?
LL: Because we formed the flight, you see.
DM: Yeah.
LL: And with the crew Danny and I, Danny Wilcox, his, his best man when he was married was [pause] I’ve forgotten his name. The bloke who lost his arm in the air force.
Other: There will be a few of those, dad.
LL: Pardon?
Other: There will be a few of those.
LL: Yeah. He was very well known. I can’t remember his name now. But we were together. That was it. Yeah. Because we were all [unclear] captains you see, six months if that.
DM: Did you meet your wife during the war?
LL: No.
DM: After.
LL: No. When I was at Padgate. I’d just, I’d just been commissioned. I was posted to Padgate as officer in charge of closing it for recruits going through Padgate. Which was [unclear] yes. Yes. I left the Air Force ’69. March ’69. That’s the letter from them saying goodbye to me.
DM: So you were in the Air Force for thirty three years.
LL: Thirty seven.
DM: Thirty seven years.
LL: Til ’69. Yeah.
[recording paused]
LL: I always remember when I went, came from Amsterdam to Dulag Luft they were marching me through Amsterdam and a lady came and gave me a medal. The Germans knocked the hell out of her. Yeah. [unclear] concentration camp. Ollmuth Civil Prison. Görlitz. Nixdorf punishment camp. Sagan. [unclear] A bloke called Grimshaw who spoke perfect German and he got out and he fixed something up in the dams, I think. Anyway, the Gestapo got him. Shot him.
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Title
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Interview with Lawrie Lawrence
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David Meanwell
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALawrenceJ170510, PLawrenceJ1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:01:26 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jack ‘Lawrie’ Lawrence planned on making a career in the RAF and joined in 1938. He enjoyed those early days when it felt like he belonged to a flying club. This was interrupted by the start of war and operational flying. He flew in Blenheims and notes they ‘filled the graveyard’ because of the accident rate with the aircraft. He volunteered for a second tour after a spell as an instructor. He was shot down and became a prisoner of war. He swapped identity with a New Zealand soldier so he would be able to volunteer for working parties which would give him the opportunity to escape. He made two attempts but was caught and delivered into the hands of the gestapo. On his last recapture he was held in a cellar before being called out into a garden where he was told he would be executed. He was unexpectedly reprieved and returned to prison. During the Long March he made his last escape and met with Canadians. He and his friends drove a Mercedes to a bridge and they then swapped the car for a camera and continued their journey on foot until they reached freedom.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Oberursel
Netherlands--Amsterdam
Poland--Żagań
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1945
83 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
Dulag Luft
escaping
Hampden
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Cranwell
RAF Hemswell
shot down
Stalag 8B
Stalag Luft 3
the long march
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1014/11303/ACopeM181127.1.mp3
43f82e2e44903fe131beaa3977ee6b33
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cullum, James
James Frederick William Cullum
J F W Cullum
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Mick Cope (b.1935). His adoptive brother James Frederick William Cullum flew with 156 and 460 Squadrons as an air gunner.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cullum, JFW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell, the interviewee is Mick Cope. The interview is taking place at Mr Cope’s home in Dorking in Surrey and the date today is the 27 November 2018. Okay, perhaps you could tell me a little bit of background about yourself and the person you’re going to be talking about.
MC: Right. Well I’m the adopted brother of James, known as Sonny. He was a part of the crew of one of 460 Squadron, Royal Air Force, which was an Australian outfit at the time and the only Australian in the crew was the captain, all the rest were English people. Sonny was a WOP, wireless operator gunner, air gunner, mid upper. I know all this because at times when he came home he’d bring home different parts of his uniform, his headset, all this business which to me at that time was heaven on earth.
DM: What was the age difference between you?
MC: The age difference I suppose was somewhere in the region about, I was what, five, two, fifteen, I suppose there must have been about between ten to fifteen years age difference. And of course he would bring, he would come home for the forty eight or whatever it was, forty eight hour pass, whatever it was he got, and he’d come home and we’d have the time of our lives as much as I can remember. I mean this is going back now to the good old days of 1943 when I was seven, so the age gap there is seven, fifteen, seven to about I suppose what, must been eight, eight year gap, but that didn’t come into it. I, I saw him as my brother when he came home. He brought home a couple of times John Hughendean, who was the captain, pilot, and Australian, and all I can remember him was a tall guy, he must have been about six foot six, and he was, he was a lovely man. And he came with him and we had those few days. I had the time of my life because I could go out when he went back off leave and I could go home and I could relay to the rest of the lads of my age now of what he was, what he’d been doing or what he told us what he’d been doing, and I was cock of the roost because my brother had been flying up there. And then, of course, when the news come through, stop. [Whisper] When the news came through, all, all hell was let loose and from that day on until, oh what, I was twenty three, twenty three when I got married, twenty three, until I was twenty, about twenty five, it was never mentioned. It was a [paper shuffle] a blank page. That’s it. Can’t help that. Yeah, it was never spoken about, the reasons, to me at that time I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t have been thinking what mum and dad were thinking. Mum really took it deeper than dad did, obviously, and it was never spoken of, not until of all things, it was, we went away on holiday, now where did we go? Yeah. We went, we went to Spain on holiday and we met up over meals and whatnot, and we met up with a gang of youngsters who happened to be German. God bless ‘em, and they were great, they were beautiful kids. I mean we were in our what, late twenties at this time, late twenties, and they were teenagers and we, I got talking to one girl one evening and just saying you know, where do you come from? ‘Oh I come from Germany.’ I said, ‘yeah, I gathered that,’ but I said whereabouts?’ Because also at that time I’d done my National Service and I was posted to Germany and I did my National Service in the air force in Germany and I loved the place and I’m just interested and I said, ‘where do you come from?’ ‘Oh’ she said, ‘you wouldn’t know where I come from, I come from Wuppertal.’ The red flag went. I said, ‘Wuppertal?’ ‘Oh yeah,’ she said, ‘oh,’ she said ‘It’s a beautiful place.’ I said, ‘oh!’ She said, ‘do you know it?’ I said ‘No, I know of it.’ I said, I’ve heard different places like Berlin, Dusseldorf and places like that,’ I said, ‘and I’ve heard of Wuppertal,’ and I never said no more and it wasn’t till we come home and till mum was saying how was the holiday, oh fine, lovely. Sheila, my wife talking, ‘yes,’ she said ‘we met up with some German people.’ And I thought then, oh please. Anyway mum never said anything so I said, ‘no,’ I said, ‘they’re lovely, a couple of lovely girls that we were speaking to,’ but I said, ‘you know they, they were telling us where they come from, they come from Wuppertal.’ And with that mother just turned round and said: ‘that was Sonny’s breaking point.’ Now she’d never spoken, what you were talking about just now, she’d never spoken about it, that long gap. So I thought oh, all right, now’s your chance. I thought no, no I won’t. So yeah, I turned round I said lovely girls saying about you know, what it was like there and they got, that she was proud that they got I think one of the only trams that are hung above the street level and she was pleased as punch to think that there’s not another place like it in the world and I gradually, I was able, I don’t know how, but I was able to twist a little bit and found out that he’d done so many trips beforehand, like the rest of the lads did, but something about the Wuppertal raid must have really hit home to him for some reason, because it really hit him hard, and he wrote one letter home and mother showed me, and I can’t find it now, but you’d think he was talking about his brothers, who he was dropping bombs on. I can’t get the equation right.
DM: No.
MC: But that was the only time that she really spoke about it, in all those years and after that, at different times certain things happened, like as I say I was in the RAF and different things happened and I could talk freely, I could talk freely, freely because I could talk about them German people, and those German people I met were gorgeous, some of them were better than ours. So, and then that got me, got me thinking well I don’t know, I don’t know a lot. I’m going to see if I can find out a bit more and I started fishing, as you do, and got different little bits and pieces and then -
DM: Would this have been before the internet, so you were having to sort of do all the legwork and everything?
MC: Oh yes, this was before the internet. I didn’t know where, where the hell to go and I tried the Air Ministry and all I got from the Air Ministry was that we cannot tell you because it’s the thirty year period or whatever it was at that time, and you know, we can’t divulge because you are not -
DM: Next of kin I suppose.
MC: Next of kin and all this business and I, it got to the stage where I thought I just don’t want to do it any more. So I left it. But then, as you can see, there’s three Lancasters over there, there’s another one behind you there, which is my prize at the moment, and there’s another one behind me there. So you can see I haven’t lost, I haven’t lost touch. And of course then this boy came into business, this one, he came into business. [tapping] And then of course I’m not au fait with it but the wife’s getting on better than me, so we sit down at different times and we go through it, try to go through it, and different pieces like I found out that the whole crew, their whole names, Bullimore, Dickens, Walker, Sycamore, Archibald, names that I never knew. I knew Hughendine and I knew he was Australian, and then, then I thought oh, can I get anywhere, and I was fiddling about with it one day and I’m still trying to find it to this day and it must be now what, oh, at least a year, I happened to flick through and hit on a briefing of, or not brief, a debriefing of a Luftwaffe pilot who did the damage, and shot down, or him and his partner, shot down [cough] my brother and I think it was Nettlejohn was another guy they shot down. Now I can’t find it. I think I’ve sent it off to one of my cousins who, [cough] strangely enough we had a bereavement in the family and I met up with a cousin who I’d never seen for [whistle] god knows how many years, and his boy, who’s a big grown up lad now, I mean, doing his own business and whatnot, and I got talking to him he is doing a family history. And he said, ‘god,’ he said, ‘just right timing ‘cause,’ he said, ‘have you got any bits and pieces of your family? Because it was Uncle Jim wasn’t it, was my dad’s brother was Uncle Jim, your dad.’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Oh, cool, that’s good.’ I said, ‘Look, I’ll tell you what I’m doing it exactly the same as you, but I’m do the, or trying to do Sonny’s records.’ ‘God.’ ‘Tell you what I’ll do, I’ve done some,’ I said, ‘I’ll sling ‘em through to you and if you get anything you can throw ‘em back to me.’ Well I did, I sent him the log book here. I sat down with the wife and we did a copy on the ipad of his log book, and sent it through to him. Oh, he was over the moon, blah, blah, blah. So it’s now come back now and it’s coming back now and it’s coming back to now. But since going to, my daughter bless her: ‘I’m taking you up to Lincoln, Lincolnshire.’ ‘What for?’ It didn’t, didn’t go in. I’m too old to pick things up quick. ‘I thought what we’d do is, we’d have a weekend away. I’ve booked a Travelodge up at Lincoln,’ and things began to twig, oh yeah, and ‘I thought what we’d do is go to this place, it’s called Canwick,’ and I said, ‘yeah,’ ‘and it’s near the new museum.’ And I thought you little, little so-and-so, but she said also if we’re going to do that, it’s all in the same area, we could do East Kirkby.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘yeah,’ I said, ‘Just Jane, East Kirkby, cor, yeah. And Coningsby’s not far up the road and you could go, perhaps you could go there, and the Battle of Britain Flight.’ Well this was all my, all my easter eggs come at one go. So I said, ‘Well, you sure about this?’ Cause I said, ‘you know, you’re taking a lot on. I don’t think you’re going to be able to do it all ‘cause Coningsby’s closed I think it is, on the weekends, I think it’s closed.’ Anyway, ‘well,’ she said ‘we can always knock one out if we can’t do it.’ She said, ‘Do you want to go to the museum and East Kirkby?’ So I said, ‘well yeah, yeah, course I do.’ Which we did, and then of course we did East Kirkby first, and then from East Kirkby we went back to the hotel, and then the next day, I mean we went back to this hotel, and got to the hotel, booked in and all, did all that, went and had a meal and whatnot, had a walk and they got up in the morning and they went off out while they were waiting for us to get ready. And when she come back, she said ‘you’re not going to believe this dad.’ So I said, ‘what?’ ‘Well,’ she said, ’we’re going to the museum, the new Bomber Command place.’ I said, ‘yeah, that’s all right.’ Well she said, ‘you’ve only got to walk,’ I said, ‘what are you talking about?’ I said, ‘It’s not in walking distance!’ She said ‘It is!’ she said, because ‘if you look here,’ and she walked me I suppose a matter of fifty yards, and she went, ‘that’s where we’re going aren’t we?’ And where the place was, where we were staying, to the new museum, Bomber Command Museum, was a matter of about a couple of hundred yards walking. So we did those two, and she said all being well, she said if you want to go back up and go to Coningsby we’ll do that at a later date. So I’ve now got to the stage where I’ve been thinking about it, and I’m an old man, I ain’t got much longer. I’m eighty three, I’ve got all this paraphernalia here. They’re not going to want it, ‘yes we’ll take it dad,’ hmm, okay they’ll take it but they’ll put it in the cupboard, bless ‘em, and they’re gonna stay there, aren’t they, what are they going to do with it. So anyway this is where this lady at the Bomber Command Museum, that I was talking about, she took us on the tour, and like an idiot I didn’t get her name, but she was a lovely lady and she took us round and we were laughing and joking and talking and I just happened to say that I’d got his log book, ‘Oh you haven’t, have you?’ I said ‘yeah,’ ‘Oh!’, and then off the cuff I said well if its any good to you, you can have it.’ And I think she thought the same, all her eggs had come in one basket. I said, ‘well there,’ I said ‘you can have ‘em. I’m getting to the stage now where they come out at different times,’ I said, ‘my memory’s all around the place.’ ‘Oh would you, would you really?’ I said yeah. So that brings us I think to a closure,
DM: What did you –
MC: In as much as this business now if it goes to you. If it’s any use to you, I will hand it over to you. Don’t want to sign anything if you don’t need it, because it’s there.
DM: Okay.
MC: if you look and you think yes we’ll have that, we won’t have that, you do that, I won’t be offended.
DM: Okay. I’ll have a look in a minute. What did you find out about the circumstances that your brother died in? You said that you found out who shot him down.
MC: Not a lot. This business with the Luftwaffe guy, I mean he, he went into quite a detail, because it wasn’t only, he only, not only shot one person down, I mean [cough] he got quite a few to his record. Good luck to him. So he put in this article, and I mean if it’s any good to you I can get it and send it on to you because it was quite interesting, and as I say I can’t for the life of me find it, which is the idiotic things we do, [blows nose] so -
DM: So looking, looking at your, at this bit here, actual paper here, it’s saying they were flying to Turin on the night of 12th 13th July 1943 and it failed to return to base and I see they are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial so clearly they were never found. They’re not buried anywhere that you know of.
MC: That’s right. No, because that is on there, that goes on a bit further there. And also it says that it was, this guy, this German guy says it’s there -
DM: So out in the Bay of Biscay basically.
MC: So, we’re talking you’ll never find.
DM: No, that’s right.
MC: So all they’ve done is, this come off the internet, and all they’ve done is they’ve given a proposed route where he could have come off on anywhere, from the UK there and I take it he went that way to it.
DM: Yeah, I would think so. So it looks as though, if he was lost in the Bay of Biscay, they had completed their mission and were on their return trip.
MC: They were on their way back which would have taken them now over Annecy and out that way and supposedly somewhere round there is where that, those lads lay.
DM: Yeah. It says here he was twenty years old when he died.
MC: That bit there, and there, which you would read, sorry to take that away form you when you’re reading it.
DM: It’s fine.
MC: But then also – what oh.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mike Cope
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Meanwell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACopeM181127
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:26:04 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Second generation
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Description
An account of the resource
Mike is the adopted brother of James (known as Sonny) who was in the Royal Air Force with 460 Squadron. The crew were all English apart from the Australian pilot. James was a wireless operator/mid-upper air gunner. Mike was seven in 1943 when his brother’s aircraft was shot down over the Bay of Biscay on the night of 12/13 July 1943. No bodies were recovered. James was twenty years of age. Mike’s daughter recently took her father to RAF East Kirby and the IBCC where he donated the logbook belonging to James.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-07-12
1943-07-13
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
460 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
childhood in wartime
shot down
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/727/11324/E[Author]BrooksWM430119-01.jpg
3208f9493d0a126df6f154697db0ffc0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brooks, Harry
Brooks, C H S
Brooks, Charles Harry Sidney
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains 18 items concerning Sergeant Harry Sidney Brooks (1915 - 1942, 1357673, Royal Air Force) who was killed in an aircraft accident 20 December 1942 while serving as a wireless operator with 9 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Collection consists of pages from logbook, letters and telegrams to his wife from Harry Brooks, Brooks' father, official sources and others of condolence as well as photographs of him and family. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Pamela Tickner and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Harry Sidney Brooks is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/102784/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Brooks, HS
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RECORD OFFICE,
ROYAL AIR FORCE,
GLOUCESTER.
19th January 1943
Your Ref. C7/1357673
Dear Madam,
It is my painful duty to confirm the death of your husband No. 1357673 Sergeant Harry Sidney BROOKS of No. 9 Squadron, Royal Air Force, who was killed at 6.1 p.m. On the 20th December 1942 when the aircraft of which he was a wireless operator and air gunner collided in mid-air with another aircraft and crashed near Waddington, Lincolnshire during an operational flight.
This information was forwarded to you in a letter dated 27th December 1942 to 51 Sheppey Terrace, Chequers, Isle of Skye, your address as shown in my records, but the letter has been returned by the post office marked “Gone away”, I had therefore to obtain your present address from your husband's unit, which will explain the delay in writing to you.
The Air Council desire me to express their sympathy and deep regret at your husband's death in his Country's service.
I am,
Dear Madam,
Your obedient Servant,
H. W. Saunders
for Air Commodore,
Air Officer i/c Records,
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
Mrs. W.M. Brooks,
116 Porthill Road,
LEWISHAM,
London S.E. 13.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Mrs W Brooks from Royal Air Force Records Office
Description
An account of the resource
Confirms the death of No 1357673 Sergeant Harry Sidney Brooks of 9 Squadron who was killed in a mid-air collision on 20 December 1942, crashing near Waddington, Lincolnshire. Explains delay in writing due to information being initially sent to another address.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-01-19
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
E[Author]BrooksWM430119-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten letter
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Record Office
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jan Waller
9 Squadron
aircrew
killed in action
mid-air collision
RAF Waddington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1021/11392/AMartinFJK180309.1.mp3
a7c8b2de21c5a8f6d71d637fd2e397d1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Martin, Frederick Joseph Keith
F J K Martin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview Warrant Officer Keith Martin (b.1921, 1580351 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 626 and 300 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Martin, FJK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DH: Right. Ok. Right. Let’s start off with a serious thing to start off with. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Dawn Hughes. The Interviewee is Mr Keith Martin and you like to be known as Keith, don’t you? Yeah. The interview is taking place at Mr Martin’s home in Wem, Shropshire on the 9th of March 2018, and thank you Keith for agreeing to talk to me today. So, the first thing I wanted to ask was thinking about the lead up to joining the RAF how did it come about that you joined the RAF?
FM: Right.
DH: And what influenced you?
FM: I can go back to living and working in Shrewsbury. I was working for quite a big countrywide firm of agricultural machinery merchants with a branch in Shrewsbury. Hence that’s where I was working. My calling up papers came quite quickly. I was eighteen and my boss said to me, ‘You won’t need to go,’ he said, ‘Because you are on a Reserved Occupation.’ Well, I was very immature. Honestly. No, I was very immature and so that suited me. And it happened again a year later when I was nineteen. But when I was approaching twenty and I knew it would happen again I was reaching the stage where you felt guilty really if you were comfortably sitting at home, when even your own friends were going off and so I said to my father, ‘I’m going to volunteer.’ He said, ‘Volunteer for the, for the Royal Army Pay Corps,’ he said, ‘Because they get you, you’re excellent at figures,’ he said, ‘To get you well behind a desk.’ And, I, I thought about that and decided no. I liked the RAF uniform. It’s quite true. I don’t want to go in to the Army in case I land up with a bayonet. And I can’t stand the thought of the water but I can’t swim anyway. And so I went and volunteered for the Air Force which I was accepted straight away, and on the 20th of April 1942 I arrived at Padgate which is North Lancashire for my indoctrination. That’s the right word. I was there for five days only during which time there was a group of about thirty. This squadron leader addressed us and he said, ‘Would any of you like to take an aircrew medical?’ And so, well a damned good idea having a medical so I put my hand up didn’t I? And of course I passed the medical, which mainly funnily enough was, and several other failed through vision. Vision. What I didn’t know, I was innocent at the time, that I had already volunteered for aircrew and about four days, be about the 24th of the month, April I was interviewed by the same squadron leader and he said, ‘Martin, your legs are too short for us to train you to be a pilot.’ And he said, ‘Your educational standard is too poor for us to educate you to, to train you as a navigator.’ I accepted that, because I only went to the Catholic, Catholic ordinary school. So, he said, ‘We’ll train you as a wireless op air gunner.’ ‘Alright, sir.’ The following day I was posted to Blackpool, and I found that Blackpool was the school that taught you two things. One was, the important thing was how to learn the Morse Code and how to handle sending and receiving, and the other thing that was important to them but not to us was how to learn how to march up and down Blackpool streets. Behave ourselves because we were not in billets we were out to houses. Took us in, you know. So they took me. Was it how many? The school for wireless operators was I think three months. May. June. July. That’s right. And I left Blackpool having passed out at the required eighteen words a minute on the 4th of August. Went home for a, once you got a break you know. And then nine days later I received a posting to a place called Yatesbury in Wiltshire, which was the flying part of the learning to be a wireless operator. Doing it in the air. So, in effect that was the first, my first meeting with an aircraft. So, from August to November I was training as a wireless operator air, from which you got your sergeant’s stripes if you passed out. And I passed out, and got my sergeant’s stripes and was then sent for a short, what I call waiting to be properly dispersed. A small, well yeah it was a waiting station and that of all places was Ternhill. And I was at Ternhill for [pause] three weeks from the middle of November to the middle of December, and then I was posted to Calverley in Nantwich. Near Nantwich. And that really was further progress, and I have an idea of what we were flying then. Memory you know. Very good but —
[pause]
FM: I think. ’43. No. That’s right. Calverley as I was saying was again just further progress on generally learning how to fly in the air, you know. Nothing particular. And then I was sent to Aircrew Recruitment Centre in London, and I didn’t really know why but it, it did, how can I put it? It was, in fact to tell me or to tell the person that they had been selected for A — wireless operator, and B — air gunner. And I’d been selected for wireless operator. And then, so then I was sent to 18 ITW, Initial Training Wing, Brignorth for just a month. Initial Training Wing speaks for itself. And from there, from that very station I got married.
[pause]
FM: Then I was posted of all places to a place called West Freugh in Scotland which was Advanced Flying Unit, which you have to be in an aircraft flying over the sea, and you had to go through certain rules and regulations to do what you had to do. Having passed out there in May 1943 [pause] No. No. Sorry, no. No. That’s before, having passed out in August 1943. That’s right, when I finished at Yatesbury, and then to West Freugh. I passed out there in October ’43. Sorry. I was only there about six weeks and I was posted to Hixon, Stafford, which is an Operational Training Unit and we were, I was introduced to Wellingtons, Wimpies. I was also within the first week [pause] I was introduced if I can describe it as the crew. The crewing up procedure need, needs talking about because it’s something that outsiders wouldn’t know. How do you get crewed up? Who does it? The answer is the pilot chooses his own crew. The end of the week that you’re there being introduced as I said to Wellingtons, you’re told to report to the, what was the big room that was used generally for dances and things, and there was thirty wireless operators, thirty navigators, thirty engineers, thirty rear gunners, and thirty pilots. Now, that was a crew of a Wellington. Did not include a mid-upper gunner because a Wellington does not have a mid-upper gunner turret. So the skipper chose his own crew, and I was there in the room and this, seemed to be elderly gentleman he turned out to be six years older than me [laughs] came along to me and he said, ‘You’re Sergeant Martin.’ ‘Yes.’ He was only a sergeant, so I didn’t have to say sir. ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘You’re from Shropshire.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘So am I, would you like to fly with me?’ I said, ‘Thank you very much.’ And that in effect, I say to this day saved my life because he was a superb pilot, and he got the crew together and instead of us being half a dozen individuals we became a crew. Right. So we then flew Wellingtons as a crew in training from a place called Seighford, which was a depot of Hixon’s’ and we were, I was there from November ’43 to January ’44. I think it was possibly at that time that we flew our first not exactly operation but our first trip over a foreign country [pages turning] Yeah. It was on the 30th of the December during that period that we were sent to do a leaflet raid over Belgium. This was one of the Royal Air Force’s ideas that every crew should taste flying over the sea and flying over what was still dangerous territory, and so that we got back and we hadn’t lost our nerve and we didn’t report anything silly. You know what I mean, and so that was the important thing and that was in a Wellington on the 30th of December. Having [pause] passed that, we then immediately got transferred to a four engine Conversion Unit. Immediately after that. We were not going to fly in Wellingtons in operations. We were going to fly in the new four engine bombers that were coming on line. And the first thing we did when we got there was pick up a mid-upper gunner. The mid-upper gunners had been trained ready, but had been sent straight to Conversion Units as they’re called because it was there that the, the skipper would pick one up and so that’s where we got hold of Jock. And now we were a crew of seven which you need. And so we did Conversion Unit at Sandtoft, and during that time had a crash. We crashed a Halifax [pages turning] We crashed a Halifax on the 6th of April 1944. We had a 5 o’clock take off. Evening take-off. It was only what we called circuits and bumps learning, for the skipper to learn how to take off and land and he had an engine failure on take-off. And because we hadn’t really got any height the skipper, the skipper decided to crash land. The decision he made we just accepted it, and in the subsequent report which I’ve got a copy of it says, “No pilot error. No disciplinary action to be taken.” But we were a bit, we were sent straight to the medical to be checked over, and we were a bit cheeky so in their wisdom they sent us straight up again. Well, in a few hours, 9.15 that night we went up again but this time we were also accompanied by a senior pilot as well as our own to see that there was nothing wrong, and that went on all right. And the amazing thing is we saw that Halifax the other, the next day or the following day and it was, it was a ruin. We’d hit a tree in a forest or in a field, and it had torn the wing off. But how we all got out alive I don’t know but we did. The aircraft was a write off. So, we —
DH: Can I ask what plane that was—
FM: That was a Halifax.
DH: A Halifax, yeah.
FM: An old Halifax. They only sent the old ones to training places. So we had a couple of little trips before we, whilst we were there when we had to go to learn what they called ditching practice and this was up in Lincolnshire. Just a day out. You had to go. They had a big pool with a half a Lancaster in the middle and you were taken out but you had to get the dinghy out and on and get yourself home. You see what I mean.
DH: Yeah.
FM: Right. We were posted from Sandtoft to Hemswell for the month of April to transfer from Halifaxes to Lancasters. A small transfer. Just the difference for the pilot really and on the 1st of May 1944 we were posted to Wickenby.
DH: So can I ask with your job as a wireless operator what was different going from the Halifax in to the Lancaster for you? Was there any difference?
FM: Nothing on those two. Different coming from the Wellington because it was a different radio. But no my job was basically the same. Very little radio, and mainly standing in the astrodome as an extra set of eyes but I’ll come to that when it comes to operational flying. Right. On the 10th of May, on the 11th of May we were on just Lancasters locally. Further training. But on the 19th of May we had our first operation but to the marshalling yards at Orleans. Orleans south of Paris. Total time there and back five hours and fifteen minutes. Right. We then had to prepare for the next one by an air test. The next operation which was on the 24th of May which was the marshalling yards at Aachen right on the border. Five hours and five minutes. Now, I don’t want to go through these individually. I shall want to just pick out those that matter. We went to Aachen again. We went to marshalling yards. These marshalling yards were so important because it was coming up to D-Day. We didn’t know that. But the Germans were, their marshalling yards were bombed ruthlessly. The next one is a marshalling yard as well.
DH: Can you explain what a marshalling yard is please?
FM: Well [laughs] I thought you’d know that.
DH: No. No.
FM: A railway. Well, they’ve got a big railway. When you marshall all your equipment it’s a marshalling yard.
DH: Right.
FM: You know. It’s the same in this country. We got in to early June and we were on such things as heavy gun batteries on the coast. Railway junction again, and marshalling yards again. You can see the picture. We’re averaging the 5th of June, 7th of June, 10th of June, 12th of June. We were averaging one almost every other day and then [pause] that’s right. I’d passed it over without thinking how I got the Legion of Honour because on the 5th of June and the 6th of June was D-Day and in those twenty four hours we did two operations which was a thing unknown. To do two in twenty four hours. One was to the north of the coast, and one was to the south. And I’m talking about the German coastal batteries and we bombed them north and south. The south one we did first. You’ve heard a lot lately of these emigrant towns called, one was called Sangatte. Well, that’s where we, that was a bombing because Sangatte then was a big German coastal battery. So we did Sangatte and within a matter of no time at all we were off again, and this time we did the bottom ones near [pause] near, well I can’t think what the big town is on the corner. Anyway, that doesn’t matter. It was one of the southern ones, and doing those two on D-Day was the reason for the French had fixed that anybody operating on D-Day would get this medal. So, came to the last trip that I did was on the 12th of June. Again, marshalling yards and then I was transferred to the Polish squadron with a week’s leave in between. Got back. Got to the Polish squadron 17th of June. We, they didn’t waste any time. We air tested on the 17th of June morning and went on operations in the evening on the 17th of June. So we then go to several operations with 300 Squadron in June. I’ve got 24th, 25th, 29th and 30th. On the 30th, the last one was a daylight. Marshalling yards in the daylight God knows why. I can’t think of why but in fact the next one, the 12th of July, by now I must have gone on leave then. You had a leave generally every so many months because I have a blank space between the 30th of June and the 12th of July. On the 12th of July we started operations. Now were on longer distance ones. This one is nine hours and eight months. This one which I just wanted to describe is the most dangerous one we did. It was to a marshalling yard in the south of France, almost on the Swiss border at a place called Revigny, and when we got there it was ten tenths cloud. You were flying at about ten thousand feet in beautiful sunshine with a blanket of cloud right over the target. Couldn’t see anything. The Master Bomber, I don’t know whether you understand Master Bombers, the person who is there controlling. The master bomber said, ‘I can’t mark the target.’ And he recommends go home. You know, abandon. Abandon the exercise. And I can remember my skipper saying, only to us, ‘Look lads. We didn’t fly all this way to take our bombs home.’ He said, ‘I’m going to try to go through the clouds and see what happens.’ So then came the most scary time of slowly, slowly descending through cloud, and could see nothing. The navigator had taken the distance. No. Yeah. No, the direction that we were travelling so that we could reverse and go back and kept on going through this cloud to Revigny. Anyway, we came out into sunshine. Or night. It wasn’t sunshine. It was moonlight really. At four thousand feet. The skipper said, ‘Right lads. Now, we can reverse along so that we go back the way we come until we find these marshalling yards.’ And so the bomb aimer was the important one because he was lying in his turret in the bottom and he could see, and he right up, ‘Coming up marshalling yards.’ Right. So skipper said, ‘Right. Prepare for bombing run.’ And we had a very quick bombing run. Not the usual four minutes because he wanted to get the bombs away whilst we were over the marshalling yards, and so we bombed. We luckily we had time to close the bomb doors when a four engined plane which we could only describe as a four engine plane, couldn’t say it was a Lancaster or a Halifax came right underneath the clouds straight down underneath us, all four engines ablaze. An absolute, you know, a roman candle and either it exploded or it crash landed and exploded but it blew us up on our backsides. And I can remember skipper who never swore saying, ‘Oh Christ.’ And we seemed to be all over the place, and he was desperately trying to correct. Anyway, at two thousand feet he corrected, and we were back on an even keel so he said, ‘Lads, I’m going to stick these throttles right through, and we’re going to get home quickly.’ Now, when we got home we had to report to the intelligence. Why? Two things. A — the skipper had disobeyed an order to abandon to go home. B — he pressed on and bombed the target. A — he was going to be court martialled. B — he was going to get a medal. He got the medal. So he got the DFC, quite rightly. Then we carried on several quite long trips. Stuttgart. We went twice to Stuttgart and that wasn’t very nice.
DH: Can you explain why it wasn’t very nice? What mainly —
FM: Because you’re going to go through the Ruhr first of all. You’re on the chance of night fighters for such a long distance before you even get to the target because it’s an eight hour trip. Four hours each way. Do you see what I mean? You’re under, you’re in a, their well armed area, and to do it twice in oh hell, twice in four days. Yes. 24th and 28th. I can remember one little thing. On the way home on the second trip I said to the, through the, ‘Skipper, permission to speak.’ You weren’t allowed to talk, you know. ‘Permission to speak.’ ‘Yes, wireless operator.’ ‘Will you all wish me a happy birthday? It’s my birthday today.’ Because it was now, we took off on the 28th of July and on the way home it was the 29th of July.
DH: And did they?
FM: We did that night. Then there were several trips, and then came the period at the end of August. We had already now done [pause] we’d now done twenty six. And the skipper, and now the bomb aimer had also been made a [pause] a what do you call it? You know, we were still sergeants and he, yeah. You know what I mean. Anyway, the skipper called us together and he said, ‘I’ve had,’ because he said, ‘I’m a senior crew,’ he said, ‘I’ve got the ears of Bill Misselbrook — ’ our squadron commander that at the end of August the wing is being disbanded because the Poles have now got sufficient trained people to take over the wing completely. Now — ’ he said, ‘We’ve got four trips to do.’ And he said, ‘I would like to think that we could get them done without us being posted again to some other squadron, you know and have to start all over again.’ So, he said, ‘I’ve got to get your agreement that if you agree I’ll see Bill Misselbrook and say, ‘We volunteer for every trip that’s going.’ And he said, he must have agreed and from the 25th of August to the 31st of August we did four operations, and one of those was the biggest we’d ever done and it was at, it was up to a place in the Baltic called Stettin. Or it was called Stettin then and there was a Nazi naval base there and somehow Stalin had asked for us to bomb it. I don’t know how. You can get these funny things that go on. So we did Stettin as our twenty ninth trip and again on the way home he said, break the rules, he said, ‘I’m not going to stooge back under the rules of the speed that you can do safeguarding the engines,’ he said. ‘They can only shoot me.’ So it was boof, and we came home and the funny words, we landed and I can remember the words coming over the, over from the ground radio lady. She said, ‘U-Uncle. U-Uncle have you completed your mission?’ Because we were fifteen minutes before time getting home. Whereas the others took fifteen minutes longer obeying we’d, anyway that was another story. And then we did a daylight raid on the 31st of August and at the end of that I have a note signed by the station commander, and the squadron commander, “You’re tour is completed.” And so that in affect ends the chapter of my time doing bombing raids. Can you —
DH: Do you want to pause?
FM: Well, do you want any further more?
DH: I’ve got some questions if that’s ok.
FM: Because I mean going on, you can go on forever. I’ve got —
DH: Yeah, no, I’ve got some questions if that’s ok.
FM: Otherwise, I can go on so long with —
DH: No. That’s fine. On an op what would your job entail because it took you five hours, eight hours? So what would you do during your time?
FM: Your main job that you are trained to do for the, for the crew is that you take a message in code from Bomber Command Headquarters at oh, they’re active then. Not the headquarters now. They’re active headquarters every fifteen minutes. Every fifteen minutes they send out a message. It may be status quo. It may be they’d got a change of wind direction, change of wind speed, a change of anything, but every fifteen minutes the wireless operator takes a message and passes it on to the navigator.
DH: Right.
FM: In between, each skipper may want to use him in a different way but most want to use him as a lookout, standing up under the astrodome and helping to spy night fighters.
DH: Right.
FM: And the bit, the important thing he does on a bombing run, when you can imagine there’s a mass of aircraft coming through to bomb on the same you suddenly see one appearing above you and immediately you tell the skipper. Because what you don’t want to do is be bombed by one above. So you’re first of all a wireless operator and second of all you’re a lookout.
DH: So you kept busy.
FM: Yes.
DH: You mentioned before we started the interview, you talked about the Polish squadron. You talked about the make up of the Commonwealth crew.
FM: Yes.
DH: Can you explain that please?
FM: No, when a Commonwealth was pure luck and they had to use the name Commonwealth because they didn’t want to insult like for instance our navigator was a Canadian. My friend that I had there who’d trained could still be alive. The last time I heard of him he was in a wheelchair but his navigator was the most unusual thing. He was a Yank. But he was a Yank who had wanted to get into the war, and so he volunteered from America to join the Canadian Air Force, and from the Canadian Air Force he got, so there’s another one. So if you said it’s an English crew, or a British crew you could be offending, so it was called a Commonwealth.
DH: Right near the start of the interview you talked about your training and everything and you were saying that you got married.
FM: Yeah.
DH: Before we started the interview you said briefly about your feelings about getting married and did you do the right thing at the right age and that. Can you, can you talk about that again please?
FM: That came after though, dear. I don’t know whether it’s worth talking about. I mean, I didn’t [pause] how, how can you say that in effect during your period of the war until, until the later time that when she was allowed to come and live close to because I was no longer on operations but in those early days every leave was like a honeymoon. You got, you know you and to be honest with you we, we reached demob without ever realising what married life was, and then by then we got a baby on the way, very difficult to put it in to words. I just felt that she was too young. She never complained, but at eighteen.
DH: Yeah.
FM: But as I said marriage went on for sixty one years and we got a letter from the Queen here so that couldn’t have been too bad.
DH: Oh no.
FM: It was only in my own mind that. Yeah. Yes.
DH: Right at the start you were saying that you got the call up papers but you were in a Reserved Occupation.
FM: That’s right.
DH: So were you allowed to ignore those call up papers if you were in a Reserved Occupation?
FM: Oh yeah. Only, only as a volunteer.
DH: Right.
FM: Only, and if you were accepted you could have been a volunteer in a far more important Reserved Occupation for some reason and be turned down. You could have been in a, some kind of laboratory somewhere and what have you. But the rule was you, if you, if you, you had to volunteer and you had to be accepted.
DH: Right.
FM: And my Reserved Occupation was really only agricultural machinery. I know it was helping to keep the farmers going but it wasn’t of grade one importance.
DH: You said at the, near the start again that you went for your initial training. You said you went for training and the indoctrination. What did you mean by indoctrination?
FM: I think I can explain that. A big word for a little thing.
DH: Yeah.
FM: 16th of June 1943 [pause] That’s right. I hadn’t started. I hadn’t got to the [pause] Yeah. The first introduction to an aeroplane we [pause] now, can you edit this if you —
DH: Yes. Yes. It can be edited.
FM: The important thing was to try and make you sick on the basis that once you’d been sick you were never likely to be sick again. But if you persisted in being sick you would get discharged from aircrew because you couldn’t be sick.
DH: Right.
FM: You just couldn’t be. Now, that was the indoctrination that I, and it, on the 16th of June ’43, I went twice in one hour on a Dominie with seven, six others and we marched to the aircraft and as we marched they gave us each a bucket. Now, that was before we got to the aircraft they gave us a bucket. When we got inside they had purposely not cleaned it up and I think half of them were sick before we got off the ground. But then he was an experienced pilot and he could hedgehop. You were only up and hour but believe me we were all terribly sick. Is that sufficient indoctrination?
DH: Yeah.
FM: If you see what I mean.
DH: Yeah. Yeah.
FM: If you followed on, and I had four but the first two were only experience. The second two I had to do two message taking. That was my initial contact with the wireless.
DH: So I take it you stopped being sick.
FM: I stopped being, I was only sick once. It’s a terrible feeling and you walk out, stagger out of this aircraft and they say, they march you out, two march. ‘You now go and clean your bucket in the toilets.’ It’s not a nice story, but that was the indoctrination. It had, they could not have people who were going to be sick passed as aircrew. It could not be allowed, and so they had that method to making you sick and giving you four chances really.
DH: Yeah.
FM: I can only, I can’t honestly tell you if they all failed. All four. All I know is I was only sick once [pause] The crew, or most of them.
DH: Which one are you?
FM: None, I took it, I took the photograph as it happened. I didn’t know at the time, you know.
DH: Yeah.
FM: That I was going to take a photograph of the others. The skipper of course is in the middle. The one who looks a little bit elderly.
DH: All so young.
FM: Yes, all so young.
DH: So young. Can you tell me when you were actually on an op did you get a chance to get scared? Were you so busy that you couldn’t get scared?
FM: You were scared all the while. But you were a part of a crew and you got your courage from them, and they in turn got their courage from you. You were a crew. To say you weren’t scared would be a lie. Many’s the time I hung tight to the [pause] especially on, when you get a bad take off and you don’t get off the ground at all due to weather conditions but that’s another story. You can’t. You can’t. Some get all the stories you need to get your memory, you know. But scared, yes. We were scared. We were scared. Especially when you were flying over the Ruhr and the ack ack was almost bouncing off the bottom of your aircraft. You could hear the crackle of it. Yes. Yes. Anything else?
DH: I don’t think so.
FM: I think I’ve been pretty thorough.
DH: You have. You have.
FM: I, as I said I had two further RAF lives after that but I don’t want to go into them all.
DH: No. No. After, so after VJ Day how, how did, what affect did the war have on you do you think?
FM: None at all.
DH: No.
FM: We were still going on targets. The fact that they were targets of a different lot, because the one lot was being prepared for VE day and the second lot afterwards. No. The only thing, you know, how can I put it? When we finished we didn’t know that we weren’t going to be called up for a second tour and would have done if it hadn’t been for the Americans dropping the atom bomb. If that hadn’t have happened after six months or more of it we would have been called back again.
DH: So, after you finished your tour how did the RAF occupy you?
FM: Well, that’s another life. I could go on then about a whole year flying down near here, and then a third tour. A third life when I managed to get appointed to the Test Pilot’s School and that’s where I finished.
DH: Are you able to tell me about the Test Pilot’s School?
FM: Yes. It’s very interesting. We’ll forget the next bit. That was a year literally at South Cerney just outside Gloucester where I was flying with advanced, advanced trainee pilots when they sent, and it was a two engined aircraft, an Oxford when they sent them out to do night trips. They were not allowed to go without a wireless operator because the wireless operator could get them home by getting directions. So that was literally a year. And then there was a message on the notice board, “Volunteers wanted for the Number 4 Empire Test Pilot’s School,” which was being transferred from Farnborough to [pause] I can’t think of the name now. Anyway, I’ve got it in here. It begins with a C. Yeah, that appears, Neville Duke. I flew with him once. Empire Test Pilot’s School. What am I trying to tell you?
DH: You transferred from Farnborough to —
FM: Right. No. They were transferred. I was still at the Advanced Flying Unit until the end of October ’45.
DH: Right.
FM: So, I’d been there a little over a year and they wanted volunteers. Wireless operators who would go to just a quick training school to teach them how to help a pilot flying on his own on a four engine aircraft. You’ll appreciate that if being able to handle all the throttles, being able to close down one or more engines, jobs like that we were taught and then we were sent off to this school. And when we got there, there was nothing there and the station commander called. He said, ‘Your warrant officer has just come through Martin so you’re going to be in charge.’ So, he said, ‘You set up this unit. There will be five others,’ he said, ‘We tried to get youngsters who haven’t had the — ’ he called it luck, ‘The luck to have a bombing life because they came in too late.’ So he said, ‘They’re raw youngsters most of them but,’ he said, ‘There is one senior man as well as you.’ And so we set up this. They gave us an office. Oh anyway, we set it up and eventually it was got going but it was months. A long, I don’t, I can’t remember why but anyway it was January’46 before we actually flew when they were ready as well. And we flew from this Empire Test Pilots School. From Cranfield. Couldn’t remember it. Cranfield, which is north of, north of Bedford. Anyway, we started flying there in January ’46 and we did very little flying because they didn’t, they weren’t always flying four engines. They only needed you when they were. But, you know you did some interesting small jobs with them. And then came my moment of, there came a time in May ’46 when I think we’d had a couple of these six taken ill with something, flu or something and suddenly we, we had to do a lot more because I got a book here when I’d flew four times on the 6th of May, five times on the 7th May, twice on the 8th of May, five times on the 9th of May. I don’t want to go on but you can see I was doing a lot then and during that time, you’ve never heard of Duke have you?
DH: No.
FM: Neville Duke.
DH: No. I haven’t.
FM: Well, he became, later on he became a test pilot and he became holder of the speed record and I, and I just flew with him once for forty five minutes. N. Fifty minutes. So that’s my fifty minutes of fame, and carried on there still flying and the last trip I did before I was demobbed, 8th of July ’46. Without this I couldn’t remember all those things.
DH: No.
FM: That was the best and the luckiest posting I ever had. Suddenly going from training pilots in night cross countries often being more scared than I ever was bombing, and suddenly getting pilots good enough to be test pilots, you know. It was an entirely different experience. And the fact that I’d became a warrant officer which helped a lot. Financially it helped a great deal.
DH: Yeah.
FM: Right. Any more questions?
DH: So after, after you were demobbed what were you going to do?
FM: Well, I was lucky you see. One of the reasons that I could safely volunteer was the company, and I’ve got a letter from the boss, what would I call him? Anyway, he was the boss, guaranteeing any member of the staff anywhere in all of the branches around the, that volunteered for the Services, whichever Service and came back were guaranteed a job. And I’ve got the letter from Hubert Burgess himself and he thanked me very much for my service, services, and understood my feeling of, of volunteering. And so when I got back I went down to the branch in Shrewsbury, had an appointment with a man named Richards who I worked for. He’d, he’d been too old, you know to go in. Anyway, he’d be too important to have to go in the Services and he said, ‘Yeah. When do you want to start?’ And I said, ‘Well, can you give me a week? I’ve got to find, I’ve got to find lodgings for the wife and, and my daughter.’ And so I think I started work, I think I started work on the 1st of September.
DH: Wow, that’s, that’s quite good, isn’t it? That’s very good.
FM: It was good.
DH: For them to say that.
FM: Because, because this man Richards and I had a very long working relationship and he, he pushed me up until I was eventually, you know in a very good job. So that’s really the story of how lucky we were that we came back. I mean, I can remember one very good high rating head office boy who went, and he went in the Air Force and he came back and he went back to a job and it happened. He kept his promise. Your job was there, and that was a marvellous thing, you know. You didn’t have to worry about your week’s wages did you?
DH: No. That’s quite something.
FM: Another thing he did. This is, this is only for your information because you had to recognise what money was worth. He instructed the wages people to put ten shillings a week in an envelope in the safe in my name.
DH: What? During the war?
FM: All the way, whole time I was through.
DH: No.
FM: For the whole of the time I was through he paid me ten shillings a week for fighting for me country.
DH: Wow.
FM: Believe me when we came out that money set up the furniture for our first place. Now, how many bosses would do that?
DH: Not many.
FM: But that’s actually absolutely true. They say, ‘Oh, ten shillings a week,’ but ten shillings a week then.
DH: Was a lot.
FM: Was a different kettle of fish. And anyway, he didn’t need to give me anything, did he? Guaranteeing me a job was sufficient without paying me ten shillings a week for five years.
DH: Wow, that’s quite —
FM: So you do get good bosses. You do get good bosses. Yes.
DH: Well, can I say thank you. You’ve been absolutely fascinating to listen to.
FM: No. I, I didn’t want to overdo it as I said. There’s the three lives. The second one I told you about flying trainee pilots around the skies over Gloucestershire were not a happy experience and then the Test Pilot’s School which was quite marvellous. Quite marvellous. Although to get in [laughs] this is not for you, I’m just talking to you, you get in, and this test pilot he says, ‘Well, Martin —’ or, yes. Well, yes. Sometimes they know your Christian name but you know there was, you weren’t together long enough. He’d say, ‘Well, I’m doing single engine flying today.’ So he said, ‘You know how to feather.’ That was what I was taught of course. I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Be careful to feather in the order that I tell you because —’ he said, ‘I’ll have to adjust the balance of the aircraft.’ So you get quite happily tootling along and he says, ‘Feather outboard.’ So you press the button for stop the outboard and the engine dies and it’s just running in in the wind and he’s adjusting. And a little later he says, ‘Feather inboard.’ So you press the inboard button and that so he says, ‘We are now flying on two engines.’ That’s alright. And then he said, ‘Feather inboard,’ or whatever. The one he prefers. He may say that he prefers to feather inboard, or feather outboard of the other two and you do it and suddenly you’re flying or trying to fly a four engine bomber on one engine. It has its own moments. It has its moments. Oh yes. But you trusted them you see. They were skilled, and they had to be able to fly this bomber on one engine without losing height. Just keep it and they would, they passed. Anyway, enough about that.
DH: Which aircraft were they?
FM: Lancasters.
DH: They were Lancasters.
FM: Yes. And the latest model too. The latest Rolls twenty two engines I think. They had all the best to train on they did. Yeah. Anyway, thank you for coming. I don’t want to bore you to tears.
DH: You’re not boring me whatsoever.
FM: I mean, I was one of the lucky ones to have lived through it and to some extent to still have an active memory. I do need this because the dates sometimes run into one.
DH: It would be very difficult to remember all those dates.
FM: Oh yeah. Yes.
DH: Very difficult, one last question.
FM: Yeah.
DH: Have you got any you know, lighter moments. Any funny things that you can remember from your time on operations?
FM: You know, it’s hard to remember a funny thing. I think the funniest thing was not what happened on the day but what happened on the day had a remarkable [pause] how can I put it? Resurgence of life many years later. And I’ll tell you this, I can’t remember which daylight raid it was but the Polish squadron, Polish aircraft my pilot had got friendly with their pilot was in, landed in the next bay, and they were getting out and we were getting out and they had, one of the ground crew was a bit snap happy taking pictures and he came along and we grinned at him and he took the picture and that was it. Never thought anything about it. Now, this is one daylight raid towards the end of the, with my life at Faldingworth with the Poles. Now, how many years later? I would be [pause] Phyl had died so it was one of their anniversaries at Faldingworth and I got an invitation and I had a friend, a golfing friend who was very keen on anything to do with, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’ll take you. I’d love to.’ He said, ‘I’ll take you willingly.’ I said, ‘Ok.’’ He said, ‘Don’t worry about driving,’ he said. I was still able to drive. I hadn’t reached this stage but it must have been ’87 ’97. Fifteen. It must have been fifteen years ago. An anniversary they had and that we went up and we went first thing and we went in to the village hall which was also now laid out with old photographs and everything to do with the Poles. And the Polish people, or the remnants were there and a lot of them had got tales to tell. And I was walking along here, this lady had got a book and she spoke English. She said, ‘Have a look at my records.’ She said, ‘Do you happen to know my father? He was a Polish pilot in this.’ And I said to her, ‘Apologies,’ I said, ‘We were only there three months. We never got really to know our own lot properly let alone — ’ ‘Oh, I understand.’ She said, ‘Have a look at my pictures.’ And she turned over a page and there was the photograph there that he’d taken what would be the best part of, if he’d taken it in ’44 and this would be in, in ’84. The best part of forty years later. And I squealed. I said, ‘You won’t believe it,’ I said. ‘That’s me.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, reading it. This was the pilot who was a friend. And this ground crew had taken, and it had got to her and she got it and there it was. A photograph of myself and oh, I remember the bomb aimer was there and the rear gunner. Unfortunately, the skipper hadn’t got out of the aircraft because we were only disembarking, you know.
DH: Yeah.
FM: But I can remember squealing. Then I called my friend, ‘Brian. Brian come and have a look at this.’ So he came along and I said, ‘Look at that.’ ‘Bloody hell,’ he said. I said would you believe that you could come to a place and see yourself forty years ago. And that was in effect, you could call that the most happy and unexpected —
DH: Yeah.
FM: Thing to happen. To find that you, your photograph had been taken and been kept in this, her father’s album.
DH: Yeah.
FM: And had got to her. Anyway, yes so that was I think that was a jolly tale. You know what I mean. It was a happy one.
DH: Yeah.
FM: Not a miserable one. A happy one.
DH: Well, thank you so much for talking to me, Keith.
FM: I could tell you one which is dead funny. Unbelievable but still it happened. You wouldn’t know, couldn’t know but during the war only bottled beer was available. There may have been draft beer in small quantities round about Burton on Trent and places like that but I mean normally bottled was the only beer. And the day we finished operations was a daylight raid so like it wasn’t like coming back in the middle of the night and so we all, we were all going to go down to Market Rasen which was only three and a half miles away. The skipper had arranged transport. He’s the boss now. He’s well thought of on the squadron and he arranged transport so we can drink as much as we like. So we go in to this hotel in Market Rasen. I wish I could remember its name but it’s there. We go in to the bar. It’s quite early. Not in to the bar. Went in, oh no we went in to the smoke room. Didn’t mix. We wanted a big room of our own and there’s seven of us sat around this table and the, and the navigator, Frank who came to see me from Canada who, thirty five years later, but he said, ‘The first round’s on me.’ We didn’t argue about a round. But he walked up to the bar and we could hear him. This young girl came and he said, he said, ‘I want fifty six pint bottles of beer please.’ She said [pause], ‘I’m not joking,’ he said, ‘I want fifty six pint bottles of beer.’ And they were all brought around our table. Eight of us, seven of us, supposed to drink eight each. The skipper could drink one. The navigator could manage twelve. I may have managed my eight at a push, but I think that particular order was the biggest individual order for beer I’ve ever heard placed.
DH: Yeah.
FM: Yeah. That was Frank. He was going to buy the first round so he did but there was never a second [laughs] Yes.
DH: Could you tell me the names of the people on that crew?
FM: I can. Very well. Pilot George Davies from Oswestry. Navigator Frank Yate from North Hamilton in, in Ontario. Bomb aimer Freddie [Pittey] from Newbury, trainee, a trainee teacher and went back to become a school teacher. Jock Gilchrist. Jock, obviously mid-upper gunner, Scottish from Ayr. The one, the one we found difficulty keeping in touch with and I don’t know why maybe he got married and moved around was the engineer. I’ll think of his name in a minute. And then the rear gunner was the oldest. Harry [Fay], a cockney from East, East Ham. Harry was the first to die. He had a heart attack and one by one they all dropped off leaving me, yeah. I even kept in touch with the wives. With the widows. The two widows that I mainly, because it was rather amazing when you think of I went to the wedding of the bomb aimer and I went to his silver [pause] Oh, let me think. If he was married in ’46, and I went to his golden wedding, that’s right. That’s right. He was married in ’46. Ninety. Yeah, that’s right. And Phyl was alive of course and at his golden wedding of course we were guests of honour fifty years later. That was one amazing thing. The skipper of course married a New Zealand nurse who then wanted to go home and he didn’t have no interest in his father’s business which was a business that I was in. And when he’d gone and I was living in Oswestry and his mum and dad were still alive in Oswestry, I used to visit them didn’t I? And his dad who used to run this big agricultural, owned it, that George wasn’t interested in because he was a Batchelor of Science in his own right on metallurgy. Anyway, that’s another story. Anyway, his father said to me, ‘Get in touch with your boss and tell him that when I’m ready to retire I want you to buy the business.’ Now, geographically it was perfect. We’d already moved from Oswestry when we bought out a company in Welshpool so one more step to new town was perfect. And it happened. He called me, ‘Come and see me. I want to retire,’ he said, I want to safeguard my staff,’ he said. ‘You get hold of your boss.’ Well I did and of course my boss, the big boss then contacted my boss Ben Richards who’d been with me all the lifetime and we went down and we looked and eventually we bought it. And because of that I was made what you’d call area supervisor, having already taken over Welshpool as well from Oswestry, and the funny thing to think that from that day when George Davis says, ‘You’re from Shropshire.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘I’m a Salopian too. Would you fly with me?’ Comes years later his dad. It’s, you know —
DH: It’s amazing, isn’t it?
FM: It is. You can’t really believe these things happen. Yes. Yes. I’m glad I’ve got a pretty active memory because sometimes I can enjoy going back on a given period. I don’t have to go back on the lot. I can remember doing something that I never thought you’d do in the wartime. Have you heard of mayday?
DH: Of?
FM: Mayday. The word mayday.
DH: I know what the word mayday means. Yeah.
FM: What does it mean?
DH: It’s a call for help.
FM: Right. It’s also something you don’t use unless you’re in —
DH: Trouble.
FM: In trouble. And so I called mayday and I had to explain when we got down why, and this was with these trainee pilots. We were out one night in January and we were in a horrendous snowstorm. He quite rightly had lost his way. I could understand that. We got down to, over a big town at about four thousand feet or was it, sorry four hundred feet, and we could recognise it was Cheltenham. I also knew that we were, had a safe flying height over the Cotswolds of fourteen hundred feet, and we were flying at four hundred feet. So I tapped him on the shoulder and I [pause] ‘Oh yes,’ he said. We climbed up, and then we were lost, you know. We were close to home and yet lost so I called, ‘Mayday. Mayday.’ The answer, ‘Your requirements?’ And I just said, ‘Searchlights.’ And within no time the beams came up. We could see them and we came home. Got home. I got away with them. My reasons for mayday. They accepted it. I don’t know whether he got away with having lost, you know. I don’t know. I can’t remember, but I do remember that. Possibly being the most scary night of the, you don’t call mayday once in a lifetime. Yeah. And then have to say, go in front of the intelligence and tell them why you called mayday. A thing unknown. Mayday. Yes. Yes. A bad thunderstorm in an old fashioned aircraft is pretty terrible you know. I mean you can’t see anything. Not like these modern things where you’re, yes, enough of me. You’ll never get home ‘til tomorrow. You get me on my memories and I’ve got so many. So many.
DH: Well —
FM: I don’t know.
DH: If you wanted to chat another time and give me memories that would be wonderful.
FM: [unclear] Right. My legs get, slowly but surely they’re deteriorating. You’ve seen that medal haven’t you? That’s the —
DH: Let’s have a look.
FM: That’s the Legion d’Honneur.
DH: Oh yes. That’s beautiful isn’t it?
FM: It is.
DH: Beautiful.
FM: Put that there.
DH: Yes.
FM: It’s just something. I don’t know if I’ve got it. It won’t take a second to look. I’ll finish my coffee. So many documents that I’ve got which [pause] Different crew members but I don’t want to show you bits and pieces. I thought I’d got a [pause] There’s the skipper. What you can see of him. Only his head.
DH: Oh, inside the plane.
FM: No. I can’t see there’s anything particular. It’s hard to remember [laughs] I told you we were in civvy billets in Blackpool.
DH: Yes [pause] Ah, which one are you?
FM: Right in the middle, at the back.
DH: Oh right. Oh yes, nuisance.
FM: I’ll get it. I’ll get it.
DH: All right, love. I did get a little one of the two gunners. The rear and the mid-upper together.
FM: Yeah.
DH: I’ve got other photographs somewhere dear but I don’t know where they are.
FM: Ok. What I’ll do is, if we finish —
DH: Yes.
FM: If I finish of the interview now.
DH: Yeah.
FM: And then I’ll explain a few things. Ok. So, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frederick Joseph Keith Martin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dawn Hughes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMartinFJK180309
Format
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01:41:51 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Keith Martin was working for an agricultural machinery merchants in Shrewsbury when the war started. This was classed as a reserved occupation but when he was nearly 20, he decided to volunteer for the Royal Air Force in April 1942 and was selected to be a wireless operator/air gunner. Initial training took place in Blackpool, followed by further training at RAF Yatesbury, RAF Ternhill, RAF Calveley. Promoted to sergeant he was then posted to 18 Initial Training Wing at RAF Bridgnorth to complete his wireless operator training. Flying training took place at RAF West Freugh and in October 1943 he was posted to an operational training unit at RAF Hixon flying Wellingtons. It was there that Keith was formed in to an aircrew. In December 1943 Keith’s crew flew their first operation, as part of their training, which was leaflet dropping over Belgium. January 1944 saw a posting to a heavy conversion unit at RAF Sandtoft to fly Halifaxes. In April their aircraft had an engine failure on take-off, resulting in a crash landing which wrote it off but injured no-one. He transferred to Lancasters at RAF Hemswell and was then posted to RAF Wickenby. From May he was in an operational squadron. Keith describes the many operations that he carried out, including an operation during which an aircraft below his exploded, and caused his aircraft to go out of control until the pilot recovered control at 2000 feet. In June 1944 he was posted to 300 Squadron. By August his crew had flown 26 operations. On completing his tour, Keith went on to spend a year at the advanced flying unit at RAF South Cerney before volunteering for the Empire Test Pilots’ School at RAF Cranfield. He was finally demobbed in 1946 returning to his pre-war employer, who had kept his job available.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cheshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lancashire
England--Shropshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Wiltshire
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
England--Blackpool
France--Paris
France--Sangatte
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-04-20
1943-05
1943-10
1943-12-30
1944-01
1944-04-06
1944-05-01
1944-06
1944-08-31
1946
1944-07
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
300 Squadron
626 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crash
crewing up
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
propaganda
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Calveley
RAF Cranfield
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Sandtoft
RAF South Cerney
RAF Ternhill
RAF West Freugh
RAF Wickenby
RAF Yatesbury
take-off crash
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1027/11399/PMcVickersCG1701.2.jpg
e63e360b9d8c44c497cd07bf38ac604f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1027/11399/AMcVickersCG171006.1.mp3
e70c5002647526a9e94ca6d62c386bfe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McVickers, Christopher George
C G McVickers
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Christopher George McVickers (1922 - 2018, 1042135 Royal Air Force), his log book identity card and disks and his decorations. He completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 218 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Christopher McVickers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McVickers, CG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: Right. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Digital Archive between Harry Bartlett, representing the Archive and Christopher George McVickers who was a member of 218 Gold Coast Squadron and served throughout the war in —
CM: Well —
HB: With 218.
CM: ’41.
HB: From 1941 through and served after the war through to 1965.
CM: ’67.
HB: Thank you. I was wrong.
CM: Well —
HB: I have.
CM: Don’t forget I wasn’t flying for the last eighteen months. I was just, I was a missile controller.
HB: Right. Right. So, Kit isn’t it?
CM: Kit.
HB: We call you Kit.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right. Where you were born, Kit?
CM: Blackhill, County Durham.
HB: Right. And did you go to school at Blackhill?
CM: I’ve no recollection of ever going to school.
HB: No.
CM: I forgot about it. I went to school quite obviously.
HB: Obviously.
CM: Went to school at Benfieldside.
HB: Aye. And, and your first job was in —
CM: Errand boy.
HB: Yeah. In the —
CM: As you did in those days. This was, I’m talking 1935 ’36 you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Did up to fourteen.
HB: So you were an errand boy.
CM: I failed the eleven plus.
HB: Right.
CM: But it wasn’t — I had a broken arm during that period and also went to hospital with scarlet fever during that period.
HB: Right.
CM: When I came back to school because obviously the sickness thing. And the eleven plus was pending, I couldn’t do it at the time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I couldn’t sit at the desk like that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I missed all the revision and everything else. So, they all said, you’d have no chance with that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I took, I took it privately. By myself.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Just with my arm out of the, just like that. So consequently I didn’t know how to pick my pen up or to write.
HB: Aye.
CM: So I made a mess of it and I failed it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So there was a lot of talk about it at the time. Jane knows all about this. And my father made such a fuss of this. ‘My son has never had a chance. He’s had no chance. No revision. Nothing at all.’ Sat down with his arm out of his sling and taking an important — so that’s, but at that time they did their very best.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But they couldn’t do anything about it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So you just —
CM: I was going to pass the eleven plus but I didn’t due to circumstances.
HB: Yeah. So you became an errand boy.
CM: Yeah. I was. I won’t say I was a very humble errand boy but I was the best errand boy in the locality.
HB: Yes. Absolutely. And you went to the steelworks I understand.
CM: Yes. My father, my father’s brother Kit who was the, as I said was general secretary of the Iron, Steel, British Iron, Steel and Kindred Trades Association. So he had so much power he could say to me, ‘It’s your sixteenth birthday coming up Kit lad.’ Kit lad. He said Kit lad. He said, ‘Just report to the timekeeper and say you’re Uncle Kit sent you,’ he said, ‘You’ll be set on.’ So I thought, My God, this is nepotism but in a fine sort of way but that’s how I got the steelworks.
HB: And that was at, that was in Consett.
CM: Within two years of course, those were ’36 ’37 then the war broke out and instead of being, doing, on the staff of the steelworks which I was they said, ‘Ok. We’re going to need all the best men we’ve got to man, man the furnaces,’ because a lot of the people on the furnaces had been, were Territorials and they’d been called up anyway. So semi promotion was not only I was going to be boy plus beyond boy to the eighteen year old man. Man’s, man’s business. So suddenly I got promotion beyond the dreams of avarice.
HB: Oh lovely.
CM: But the only fault of it was the timekeepers thought these were boys and they’d be boy labourers. Therefore, they must pay boy labourers wages. So about three months later Kit said to me, he said, ‘How are you spending all the extra money Kit lad?’ And all I was getting was, I said, ‘Well, I’m not getting any extra money.’ I’m getting boy’s labourers wages. He said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Just stay here. Don’t move from that place for ten minutes.’ And off he went to see the, not the commanding officer —
HB: No.
CM: The general service manager. You know, the boss. Came back and said, ‘Don’t worry,’ he said, ‘You’ll get all the backpay you get at full men’s wages. Not only that it’s all the people who’ve been doing the same thing as you. They’ll get the same thing. Well, I was the most popular chap in the steelworks. By this time it was quite a lump sum between boy’s labourers wages and men’s labourers wages.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Anyway, I did pretty well because leaving school at fourteen didn’t make much difference. I had the intelligence then in the first place. Which I would, that’s why my father said I would have been a cert for the grammar school.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I had the grammar school brains without the grammar qualifications.
CM: That’s —
HB: So I did alright.
HB: So that was up to, that was sort of ’37 ’38.
CM: That’s right. Well —
HB: So, so, how, how did you come to join the RAF?
CM: It was 1941 before I joined the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
CM: By that time I was nineteen.
HB: Yeah. And did you, did you volunteer Kit?
CM: Oh yeah. Yeah. They wouldn’t let you go unless you volunteered.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And you had to be, you had to volunteer for either submarines or aircrew or some other damned dangerous job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They wouldn’t let you go otherwise. They wouldn’t let you go just to be an ordinary soldier.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: You know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You’re more important then to be manning the furnaces.
HB: Yeah. So, so it was so you basically you were in a Reserved Occupation.
CM: Oh, that’s right. Yes, I was. Yes.
HB: And then to —
CM: Like Kit. Like Kit himself.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: The boss. And the boss of the steelworks. They were all Reserved Occupation.
HB: Yeah. So you then went from Reserved Occupation and you volunteered for aircrew.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right.
CM: But if it had been anything other than aircrew they would said no.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Back to where you were more useful.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Which I was by then. I was an experienced furnaceman. A fourth. There a fourth hand, third hand, second hand and first hand. You know, four men manned the furnaces. So you progressed from fourth hand to first hand but it took you about forty years to do it.
HB: Yeah. Oh yeah.
CM: The SiC turn system. [unclear] was in operation.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So —
CM: Organised by my Uncle Kit.
HB: Yeah. So you come and join the RAF. And you obviously had to go for your [pause] you obviously had to go for your training. Where did, where did you go for your training?
CM: First three months was Blackpool.
HB: That’s —
CM: General service training.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You know, square bashing.
HB: Was that at Padgate?
CM: No. That was at Blackpool.
HB: At Blackpool.
CM: Yeah. Blackpool.
HB: Right and —
CM: And from there to Yatesbury.
HB: You went to Yatesbury.
CM: Yeah. But, well say Yatesbury. In actual fact it was a branch of Compton Bassett which was the Ground Radio School. Yatesbury was the Air Radio School.
HB: Ah. Right.
CM: You went to the Ground Radio School because we weren’t going straight on to be at the air gunner’s course. There was a bit of backlog so we went in —
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Graduated as wireless operators at this station. I was supposed to get to Anglesey but there wasn’t flying there.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But they had a small station that was there to get experience of this.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just general wireless operating which stood me in good stead because by the time we really got to the squadron, you know, I was an experienced wireless op.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Not only just getting practice but doing the real thing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But that made me a pretty good wireless operator to start with, with the experience I had.
HB: Oh right. So that —
CM: So —
HB: So you progressed through that training.
CM: That’s right.
HB: In ’41.
CM: That’s right. And then I was doing these stints at various units and then eventually I was called back. This time to Yatesbury to do what they called the refresher course. Six weeks.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Refreshers. Getting, you know the last time that we were nineteen year old nincompoops. They said — we’d better give them a bit more of a refresher.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That was good.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I found that I learned more in the six week refresher course than I’d learned for the whole three months before. Getting it again. Because by that time —
HB: Yeah.
CM: I knew what I was all about.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I could take it in better. So, as I said I came and graduated as a W/op AG at [pause] we didn’t do any flying at the gunnery school. It was at a ground gunnery school only because at that time, 1943 the losses, the losses were so great they wanted people desperately at the squadrons. And that’s where I got a, I did a —
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was a w/op AG without doing the air gunnery course. But I still wore a gunner’s brevet because I’d been trained as a ground gunner. That’s, they just cut the courses short.
HB: Yeah.
CM: At that time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So, I graduated in June, 2nd of June 1943 as a w/op ag. Wireless operator/air gunner.
HB: Air gunner. Yeah. Right. So in [pause] you end up in 1943 in, at the OTU at Ossington.
CM: That’s right.
HB: That’s obviously where you start, start your proper flying and wireless operating.
CM: That’s right. With Sergeant Topham.
HB: Yeah.
CM: As my captain. But he couldn’t, when he went to the Lancaster finishing, the Stirling OTU. What did they call it? Heavy Conversion Unit.
HB: Yeah.
CM: When we eventually got there we realised that Johnny Topham, even though he was a wonderful man. He was an ex-police, police sergeant from Newcastle he picked me because I was an ex-errand boy from Consett.
HB: From Durham. County Durham. Yeah.
CM: But he couldn’t fly a — he couldn’t land a Stirling. Stirlings are very very difficult aircraft to land because they’re high up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I can show you a photograph of a Stirling, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: A hell of a, if you fell out the cockpit of a Stirling you’d kill yourself.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It’s so high.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he couldn’t land the Stirling. Very difficult to judge the distance.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because of this huge electrical undercarriage and everything.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Very difficult to gauge. Two or three feet as you circle, bang down with a hell of a — break the undercarriage. So you had to be really a skilful, have the feel to start with and Johnny couldn’t do it.
HB: Right.
CM: So he had to go by the board. He went to Lancaster Finishing School and got away with another crew and did a tour of operations.
HB: Right. So, so —
CM: Nevertheless, I went, we got Johnny, with Johnny Lloyd who was an ex-instructor.
HB: Ah right. So that’s, that’s the Lloyd that appears in the operational record.
CM: That’s right.
HB: With you. Oh right. So, it says in your logbook you just, perhaps you can explain it to me it says OTU satellite Bircotes.
CM: That’s right. In each of these OTUs they always had a spare. For diversions and things like that. And sometimes you’d be stationed at the satellite because it was more convenient. To take more, more aircraft in the air. More people going through. So Bircotes was a small grass field right almost just on the edge of Bircotes mining village.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: So but there was a lot of juggling about there with pilots like Johnny Topham I’ve just been telling you about and other people like that. John Lloyd, the other bloke too, he went LMF as well. So it was branded as a kind of a jerky sort of tour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You went to. You see it followed through the worst thing. I’d be a long time in the squadron with Johnny Lloyd and of course every time he took us he took us fly us he took us, he could fly a Stirling, every time he took us to it he could [unclear] with it. They thought was great. We thought was great actually to have a captain who could fling a Stirling around the sky as if he’d been born and bred to it. But of course the authorities didn’t like it. They wanted to be trained in the orthodox sort of way.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So my passes to these sort of things is varied, many and varied.
HB: Yeah. I don’t know if you can remember this, Kit as just an interesting little note in here. September the 4th 1943. You’re with Sergeant Topham as the pilot.
CM: That’s right. Johnny Topham.
HB: And you’re doing a, you’re in a Wellington.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And you’re doing a cross country test.
CM: Yes.
HB: Routine test. And it says in here that you couldn’t maintain your height.
CM: That’s right.
HB: So what happened?
CM: Crashed at, crashed at Catfoss. Doesn’t it, doesn’t it mention crashing at Catfoss?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. It does.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. So, so what? You just hit the ground and slid.
CM: Well, we were coming in to land. The communication wasn’t very good. But he had got to the air traffic control that we were coming in to land because he had lost, lost an engine. He couldn’t maintain height. But when we approached the runway there was a Beaufort, a Beaufort. At Catfoss was Beauforts. It was a Coastal Command station.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he’s on the end of runway. So what can we do? We had to get down because the aircraft wouldn’t make it. It wouldn’t have got off the other side.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Only one engine and that engine was derated.
HB: Ah.
CM: It was derated and therefore it was not, they couldn’t put us off anyway. In spite of the fact the engine was, and we’d lost one altogether they’re going to crash anyway. So at the very end of the runway Johnny was trying to get over the Beaufort that was standing at the end of the runway who obviously wasn’t aware what was coming in behind. Just at the last minute he just kind of boosted over the Beaufort and hit the ground but then that lifted pretty well high up. Then when we landed this time hit too hard, undercarriage split and we crashed in to —
HB: Slid down.
CM: That’s it.
HB: Anybody hurt?
CM: No. Of course with the Wellington when it crashes on the ground you can’t get out.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Did you know that?
HB: Yeah.
CM: You get in through the nose.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that goes straight against the ground. So they’d got a screened, a screened navigator basically standing beside me in the astrodome. And he undid, I wouldn’t have known about this, he undid the four screws under the astrodome and just on the approach he knew. He knew what he was doing. He was going to make an escape hatch to start with before we even got down.
HB: Right.
CM: And he put us down. He says, ‘You’re going out there.’ The only snag is that when we hit I was knocked arse over t [laughs] and I was lost. But the navigator he hung on. He was experienced. He hung on and he was the first out. And when the others would have got out the same, the pilot got through the cockpit.
HB: Aye. Aye.
CM: Which took a lot of time to take in. Of course I was hit in the back and I strolled out of the, from underneath the astrodome and I heard the navigator say, ‘The w/ops still in there. The w/ops still in there.’ Because expecting the Wellingtons are notorious burners.
HB: Aye.
CM: Experienced. And then one of the, one of the brave members of my crew got in. I’ve forgotten his name, what it was now. But he was the chap and he hooked me out. He sort of picked me up and pushed me through the astrodome.
HB: Right. That’s —
CM: And I can’t, looking back I can’t ever remember thanking that chap.
HB: No.
CM: I was so shocked that they did that. That Kit McVickers was involved in this crash. I couldn’t get over it. But I can’t ever, I may have done. I think I should have done through my background and training.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I can’t ever remember saying. Look [pause] I can’t even remember his name.
HB: And that was just a, and that was just a routine training flight.
CM: That’s right. That’s right.
HB: At night. A night time one.
CM: I was very pleased of course that the crew were around me.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The most wonderful men. But then again all the crews I’ve ever had. They were all wonderful men.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So then you moved on to the Conversion Units at Chedburgh and Wratting Common.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And that, and was that when, that was when you moved to Stirlings was it? From the Wellingtons?
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. Oh, I see what you mean. Yes. Yeah. Topham was, Topham was your, was your pilot nearly all the way through there. And then [pause] it’s alright. I’m just, I’ve turned two pages in your logbook here. At Stradishall is where you joined up or you occasionally flew with Lloyd. What, what was his name? What was his name?
CM: What? Whose? What was —
HB: Lloyd. The pilot. Lloyd. What was his name? His full name.
CM: Just on Stirlings.
HB: No. On, yeah, Stirlings. Yeah.
CM: Well, first of all there was Johnny Topham.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And then Johnny. Johnny Lloyd. Both Johnny’s.
HB: They were both Johnny.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Right. So you, so then you pick up with Johnny Lloyd at Stradishall.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And you, and you do your training there and then you’re posted to 218 Squadron at Woolfox Lodge.
CM: Woolfox Lodge. Yeah. The best station I’ve ever been on.
HB: Right
CM: Right on the Great North Road.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: The billet. Within one minute of leaving my billet I’d be out on the side of the road and the boys — here’s my younger daughter now and her husband are coming. You’re very popular Mr Bartlett. Fred is it? Fred or Jim? First name.
HB: Harry.
CM: Harry. God, I was going to [unclear] yeah. And of course there was always traffic going backwards and forwards.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Military traffic.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You always get that. So I was lucky in that respect. This is, this is Mr Bartlett. Harry Bartlett.
Other: I Know. We spoke on the phone.
HB: Let me just, let me just, let me just stop the tape.
CM: Fiona.
HB: For a second.
CM: Yeah.
[recording paused]
HB: It’s 12.30 and we’re going to restart.
CM: Does that mean that memorable conversation hasn’t been recorded then?
HB: No. Perhaps as well we haven’t recorded that bit of the conversation. Right.
CM: But that, that was part of my life and of course we depend on communications with the girlfriends to keep us going. We looked forward. No one was more popular than the postman at Bomber Command. Letters coming in. Really beautiful. People loved their communications.
HB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. Well, we’ll just go back. We’re on 218, Gold Coast Squadron now. And that’s — sorry I’ve, I’ve closed the book and lost the page.
CM: It is bewildering because it isn’t straightforward because losing these people to LMF and one way or another it became a little bit bitty through my tour.
HB: Yes. Yes. That’s [pause] sorry that’s — I’ve, I’ve somehow managed to lose the whole of the Second World War there to closing the pages. A clever thing to do.
CM: I know. It’s easily done.
HB: Right. So, so you’re on, you’re on Stirlings. We’re in 1944 and you’re flying operations then. And you’re doing all the standard.
CM: But don’t forget at that time there’s the preparation for, D-Day was coming and of course although we were on the squadron but we were the new boys. And they didn’t want, with this big invasion going to take place, new boys cluttering up the edges. So consequently we found ourselves as a crew just chucked a little bit to one side because they wanted to get the main force trained. We were just incidental. So the only chance we’d got of getting operational in those days was mine laying. But of course even mine laying went by the board. We were also trained. Trained up to do this raid on the, with 617 Squadron dropping radars. Dropping Window all along the route to indicate a big fleet going to the north of where they actually landed. And 218 and 617 were two squadrons doing that. I wasn’t even on that because we were just on the, we were the new boys.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On the edges.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But with all this activity going on but not being part of it and we were too late to join it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They didn’t want to be cluttered up because at that time it was getting on for June wasn’t it? If you look at the date it’s getting on for June the 6th
HB: Yeah.
CM: D-Day.
HB: Because, because throughout what you’re talking about. Through, throughout June and [pause] June and July you’re flying bullseye.
CM: Yeah. The bullseye was the last thing before you actually did operations. It just kept, took in all the aspects of bombing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Without actually being there. Bullseye. It was. There was some navigation, dropping bombs and practice bombs and flares. We did use operational techniques without being actually on operations.
HB: Right. Right.
CM: That sort of thing.
HB: Right. So, we’ve come through June. We’ve got into July. You’re still doing a lot of training flights.
CM: That’s right. Because that was the aftermath. Things were still in a bit of chaos.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did my first operation there. Sometime around, around about. Generally, on pages you can see war operation. I didn’t even know how to report in my logbook. You never put war operations. You put operations.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Have you seen it yet? Operation. War operation. That was the only one we did in the Stirling.
HB: I’ll have a quick. I’ve got it. War operation.
CM: The one.
HB: That was the 8th of July.
CM: Yeah. So I missed getting the —
HB: Yeah. That was in a Stirling.
CM: That’s right.
HB: With the pilot, with —
CM: Lloyd.
HB: Warrant Officer Lloyd. Johnny Lloyd. Johnny. Johnny Lloyd.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And that was — Attacked FB. Flying —
CM: Flying bomb.
HB: Flying bomb depot.
CM: Yeah.
HB: In daylight.
CM: That’s right.
HB: [unclear] Capel. Yeah.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right. So that was, that was your first was it?
CM: That’s right.
HB: That was your first op.
CM: Also shortly after that they decided they weren’t going to fly Stirlings anymore so in all the chaos their transferring to Lancasters. You see.
HB: Right [coughs] excuse me. Oh yes. Because by August you’re doing, you’re doing the training on Lancasters. And then we get to September ’44. Then it really starts doesn’t it?
CM: Well, our Johnny went LMF if you read it.
HB: Who? Who went LMF?
CM: Of course that’s not in my logbook because you couldn’t put anything. You didn’t even leave. You just didn’t leave the ground.
HB: No.
CM: You just sat on the side of the runway.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it’s not, it’s not even listed because why, why should it be? We didn’t get airborne.
HB: No. Who? Who, who actually went LMF?
CM: That you’ll find that in the end Warrant Officer Lloyd ends. No more for him at all. And they get a new one. This one. It took a bit of, it took about three or four weeks to get a new captain who was Hill. Warrant Officer Hill.
HB: Oh yeah that was —
CM: Who was the best pilot.
HB: That was December. Yeah. In the December. Right. And well we’ll, we’ll come on to that because you’re flying with Lloyd in Lancasters. NF 955 and 56. And you’re doing operations at Le Havre. Three. Three times you went over Le Havre.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And —
CM: On the last trip there, when Glenn Miller was — we jettisoned all our bombs in the sea because the target was covered with, covered with, covered with mist.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So you couldn’t drop them because there was civilian people in Le Havre.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So we jettisoned in the sea and that was the day that Glenn missing, Glenn missing went miller [laughs] Glenn Miller went missing.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Flying to the site of a new concert they were going to have.
HB: Oh right.
CM: He must have been, he must have been the most terrified man in the world to suddenly find you were flying over the North Sea just within a few miles of France and suddenly being bombed by, in the middle of the ocean, the middle of the North Sea by about five hundred bombers.
HB: Oh.
CM: The jettison area couldn’t, they couldn’t, they could have jettisoned by the city but civilians were there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was a terrible waste. And he must have thought what on earth is happening here?
HB: And that was, that was —
CM: The gunner from 90 squadron at Tuddenham he saw, he saw this little plane. Pioneer or some —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He saw it actually go in.
HB: Did he?
CM: So there’s no doubt about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The September. The bombing.
HB: Because that’s, that’s 5th 6th 8th of September. Yeah. And then you did an operation to Frankfurt.
CM: That’s right. A night.
HB: A night operation.
CM: We lost four aircraft on one flight on that raid. In that incident. Because it’s a city you see.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was Lloyd flying that. And then you did an attack. Oh, 28th of September you did an attack on Calais.
CM: That’s right.
HB: A German garrison.
CM: We could, we could actually see the airfield from where we were bombing it. And then we lost three aircraft on that raid. The Calais raid.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The fire. The 88 millimetre fire from, from Calais was so accurate that the aircraft was shot down within sight of their base.
HB: Oh no. Oh dear.
CM: So at Calais is hardly worth anyone going actually.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just shoot the bombs from the guns from Dover.
HB: Right.
CM: But I remember that as being very very fraught because it was a small target and there were five hundred bombers on it. It was absolutely bloody dangerous.
HB: So, I mean your last — it says in here your last operation with Johnny Lloyd was Wilhelmshaven.
CM: Wilhelmshaven. That’s right.
HB: Yeah. That was 5th of October. And then you did, you did some navigational training which was abandoned.
CM: Who was flying on the navigational training?
HB: That was Lloyd. That was Johnny Lloyd.
CM: Oh that’s —
HB: That was an abandoned exercise.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And then —
CM: Now, one of those trips wouldn’t be in my logbook because we didn’t get airborne but he suddenly decided he wasn’t going to go.
HB: Right. Because then you’ve got a you see where they’ve cut the logbook to fit this folder they’ve lost the actual first day. So it’s really early on in December and you’ve got Johnny Lloyd flying on a familiarisation with a Lancaster. Circuits and landings.
CM: That’s right. So it was only, it was when I was on Lancasters that we did the aborted trip on the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He went LMF.
HB: And then —
CM: So —
HB: And then within a couple of days you’ve got WO, Warrant Officer Hill.
CM: That’s right. Well, there you are you see. One didn’t fly and then you’ve got to get a new captain. Still, we never saw Johnny Lloyd again.
HB: Yeah.
CM: He just vanished off the face of the earth.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s what I say. All these things —
HB: On the time, on the date.
CM: All these things of the crew were hushed up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You don’t hear very much about but mostly it was never put down in black and white.
HB: On the day that, on the day that as you described it he went LMF. What, what happened on that day? Can you remember?
CM: Well, taking off as I believe about 2 o’clock on the afternoon. That’s right. And as I said the 149 Squadron which was with us at Methwold were coming on to the peri track this way and we, 218 were coming around this way. So the peri track was filled with aircraft converged on the runway here. Right. Well, so when we went into the runway on the right hand side we were blocking the runway. No one could take off. Then we started to backtrack slowly. Taff in such a state by the door I can’t imagine what it was like. Silence in the crew. Turns around in front of all this other aircraft, took aim [unclear] and off he went again. Exactly the same thing. [unclear] went straight in there and of course the commanding officer in the background weren’t having that. So anyway straight in. They came in the jeep at the foot of our aircraft and straight away, barking. Couldn’t move. And then, ‘Follow me.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: Before the jeep went back to dispersal.
HB: So, he was, he was sitting in the pilot’s seat.
CM: That’s right. He was —
HB: But he just couldn’t take off.
CM: That’s right. He just wouldn’t take off.
HB: He wouldn’t take off.
CM: He said he could but he didn’t want to. He realised I think that Good God, I’m going to be ruddy be killed on this operation. I’m not sufficiently good. I’ve overstretched my capabilities. And I’m not really, I should have taken more notice of [pause] I think he was worried he was going to make a mess of things.
HB: Right.
CM: This turmoil inside for some reason. I don’t know. Presumably —
HB: So you got back. You go in. You got back to this dispersal.
CM: We got back. He stayed in his seat. He says.
HB: Yeah.
CM: One of the commanding officers came running at the aircraft. He says, ‘Stay where you are. Stay where you are.’ And then he says, ‘Don’t anyone move. Leave the captain there and come out now.’ Stop what you’re doing. Just drop it. Come out.’ So we all trooped out and they had a whatsthename, jeep waggon came out. A little bus to take us back. And one of us said, ‘What’s going to happen to Johnny?’ You know. Because he was very popular you see. We loved him. Johnny Lloyd. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He’ll be taken care of. Don’t you worry about that. Johnny’ll be taken care of.’ And we found out later that he’d ditched, within twenty four hours he’d left the station.
HB: Right.
CM: And within, ooh a few weeks we found he’d been turfed out of the Air Force.
HB: Right.
CM: He then went back to his place where he lived and he became destitute. That’s the story we found out later and he was ashamed of himself. Humiliated. His status as a captain and as a solicitor, it was the damned report, it was terrible. But then we found he’d, there’s a rumour that his family had gone off and sent him to Australia and he was doing his training as a solicitor. But the booze. The booze also took part in it this time.
HB: Oh right.
CM: And nothing went in there. In the erratic, an erratic state, to doomsday if you like. Just died in Australia.
HB: Oh, that’s a shame.
CM: I’ve still got — he gave me the book of poetry I’ve got down there somewhere. With his name in the front.
HB: Right.
CM: Johnny Lloyd. He was a very clever man. During the time we were there, the time we were hanging about. I’ll tell you about it. A chap who had been sent on leave to, to Ireland was court martialled and they want someone to take the case. And so Johnny said, ‘I’ve got nothing to do. I’ll take it.’ And he’d been sent on indefinite leave on this unit [unclear] To an escort unit. And he was sent on leave and they’d forgotten about him. They just kept on sending him a renewal of his leave and his money every fortnight. So of course he thought, well, the money’s coming in I must be on, still on indefinite leave.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Well, it lasted about two years this.
HB: Oh no.
CM: So anyway Johnny was, to cut an awful long story short he was, Johnny, he was a very good solicitor. Very good [unclear] He had the gift of the gab. A Welshman but a poetic Welshman.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And a solicitor. And he got, he got the chap off. It was the talk of the command.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Of 3 Group for a long time.
HB: Obviously, a well —
CM: Eloquent and [unclear] Put on a defence that they couldn’t penetrate. What could the man do? He was living in the neutral part of the, though he wasn’t in the war. He was there getting his regular payments and money and free meals and ration cards.
HB: Oh dear. Yeah.
CM: So he said what could he do? He must have been sickened. ‘I’m not doing the right thing but what can I do? If I go back now they’ll probably court martial me.’ Which is what they did when he did get back.
HB: So, Johnny. Johnny —
CM: So there you are. That’s an incidental.
HB: Yeah. No. No. No. It’s important. Johnny. Johnny. Johnny Lloyd was a popular man.
CM: Oh yes.
HB: Did you ever see him after the war?
CM: No.
HB: At all.
CM: Shirley and I —
HB: That was it.
CM: My wife and I went to this place of birth and every time we mentioned the word Johnny Lloyd everyone clamped up.
HB: Oh right.
CM: We got, we got the one chap who was at the boozer. The boozer. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: He knew Johnny and said he was a fine man but he said he didn’t get a job and he could be found on any any day any time on the street ends, ‘Can you give me sixpence for a cup of tea?’ But that’s a big blow to me as a chap who loved him. And Shirley who didn’t know, didn’t know him but to come across that sort of situation.
HB: Sad.
CM: So he went to Australia. Drank himself to death.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did go to his house because I think one of his relatives still lived there but they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t talk to us.
HB: No.
CM: And Shirley, my wife could charm the birds out of a tree but even her eloquence couldn’t do it.
HB: No. That’s a shame.
CM: So what I did, my duty by him. I wanted to find out what really happened but I failed. Well, I knew that what the end was.
HB: You say, you say failed. I think you probably did your best.
CM: I can take you and show you a photograph of Johnny Lloyd. My script is, my computer has been u/s but I’ve got a photograph of my crew. The crew I finished my tour with and the one that was with Hill. But this one here was done on the Stirlings when he first came to the squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: And it’s a very good photograph which was of Johnny —
HB: That’s, that’s alright. We’ll grab the, grab the photo in a minute.
CM: In a minute.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Oh, I was going to turn the computer on. You know when it comes up —
HB: Don’t, don’t worry about that.
CM: Ok.
HB: We’ll sort that. We’ll sort that in a minute because what I wanted, what I wanted to do was was to get through. You’ve got —
CM: Operations.
HB: You’ve now got —
CM: Operations. Yeah.
HB: Another pilot —
CM: Yes.
HB: That you’re getting to know and learn. Now, you said earlier to me before we started the recording he was an experienced pilot.
CM: Johnny. Yes. He was at, oh for two years at an airfield. An Advanced Flying Unit.
HB: Right.
CM: Flying Ansons.
HB: This was Hill?
CM: That’s right. That was Johnny. But that’s, that’s appeared in the book of course, but he was a well-known pilot.
HB: Right.
CM: He was an exhibitionist through the routine. Very good at it.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But he wasn’t meant for operations. Johnny. He was poetic. He’s like that famous Dylan Thomas.
HB: Sorry. That’s Johnny. That’s Johnny Lloyd is it?
Other: We’ve moved on.
HB: Yeah.
Other: From Johnny Lloyd, dad.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Eh?
Other: We’ve moved on from Johnny Lloyd.
CM: We’ve —
HB: Right. So, it’s Johnny. So, so Hill.
CM: Yeah. Well, Hill —
HB: We’ve now got him as the pilot.
CM: He was an experienced pilot from the Far East err the Middle East.
HB: The Middle East.
CM: He’d had a tour of operations on Wellingtons.
HB: Right.
CM: So, when we got him —
HB: What was, what was his first name, Kit?
CM: First name? Bill.
HB: Bill. So that’s Bill Hill.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And he’d come to you from the Middle East.
CM: Yeah. He’d been in this country some time actually.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But he wasn’t trained on Lancasters and when we got him he was just an ex-Wellington pilot. And then we went to, through the, he did the Lancaster finishing course there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Change of direction with Bill Hill. Then back with, back to my old squadron again.
HB: And —
CM: 218.
HB: And really really quite quickly he’s in to an operation.
CM: That’s right. Because he was experienced.
HB: On New Year’s Eve 1944 to Vohwinkel, in the Ruhr Valley.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Wow. And you obviously, and then, and then you had to go, you did that in the daytime and then you had to go back and do it in the night time.
CM: That’s right. I remember that one.
HB: Blimey. And that, that’s yeah. You’re then really then in to doing quite a few of these operations.
CM: That’s right. That’s when, that’s when my tour really started, because —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Johnny sorry Bill Hill was determined to get through a tour. He wanted to do it as quickly as possible.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Yeah. He was a good.
HB: Well, he’s got a good team.
CM: He was an excellent pilot. He was an ex-deputy headmaster and he was only about twenty five.
HB: Oh right.
CM: He was a clever lad.
HB: Yeah.
CM: He used to do comic turns as well on the stage.
HB: Did he?
CM: Oh yes. And in the air. He keep coming back from operations Johnny err Bill, Bill Hill was witty with us all together. And also on Dresden I remember he said to me, he said, ‘Wireless operator.’ I said, ‘Yes, captain.’ He said, ‘Do you want to see a, see a sight you’ll never ever see in your life ever again?’ I said, ‘Well, yes.’ He said, ‘Well, just get in the astrodome and have a look down. Down stairs. Dresden.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was too. I’ve never seen anything. The first thing I saw when I was in the astrodome was smoke. Something you hadn’t even heard of. Smoke from the burning city coming past the aeroplane. But you could see the [unclear] of streets burning ferociously.
HB: What height would you be at there?
CM: Oh about twenty thousand feet.
HB: About twenty. Yeah.
CM: It varied twenty, between twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. It could be fifty feet.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was so that you wouldn’t — to lessen the risk of collision over the target.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because all the aircraft coming in on the markers from all directions, you know. Coming in.
HB: So you were at twenty thousand feet and you’re actually flying through the smoke.
CM: Yeah.
HB: From Dresden.
CM: So the smoke was so intense. The wooden mostly, part of the really beautiful buildings the wooden buildings were quite inflammable and they were set alight. And there it was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Start the whole firestorm as they called it.
HB: Can you, can you remember what they told you on the briefing for Dresden?
CM: Yes. They said there were people in the town, the troops concentrating in the town. They said, not only that but not only ball bearings but some things very important mechanisms to further the war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Radar and all sorts of things they had scattered all over Dresden. All sorts of other things. Now, our enemies are saying well it was a quiet town. It didn’t do anything at all. It wasn’t. It was very well armed but they didn’t have any, this late in the war all the guns had been taken away because the Germans thought oh they’re going to leave Dresden alone because it’s a wonderful city. They’re good that they, because that business with Churchill started off and Dresden, Chemnitz and Berlin and all these taken at this, we wrecked them all. Dresden was wrecked in one raid.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Eight hundred and fifty bombers.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just saturation. It’s in there I think, is Dresden.
HB: Yes, yes. Yeah. I’ve got —
CM: Nine hours fifty minutes.
HB: Yeah. It’s got, it’s got marked in your book here. Dresden. Saturation raid. And Chemnitz.
CM: Yeah. Next day there wasn’t such a good raid because the weather was bad.
HB: Yeah. I’m just going to check because I think. I’m not sure about the batteries on this. Oh no, we’re alright for a minute.
Other: Dad.
HB: Alright for a minute.
Other: Would you like me to make you another cup of tea?
CM: Ask Mr, Mr Hartley. I presume you’d prefer to be called Harry.
HB: Harry.
CM: Harry.
Other: Harry would you like —
CM: In Geordieland you would be called called Harry Hartley.
Other: Daddy, would you like me to make you a cup of tea?
CM: Yes, dear. It’ll freshen up the one that.
Other: I’ll make you a fresh one.
HB: Right. So —
CM: I told you that was the thoughtful one, didn’t I?
HB: Yeah.
CM: She’s the more thoughtful one.
Other: Dad faces us off against each other as you’ve probably realised.
HB: Oh, I gathered that [laughs]
Other: Yeah.
HB: Right. So, yeah. So, we’ve got, he’s certainly rattling through the operations here because you’re, you’re talking for, this is February 1st 3rd 9th 13th 14th 18th 19th 23.
CM: That’s right. That was —
HB: And that’s operations every two or three days isn’t it?
CM: That’s right. That’s right.
HB: Right. And and that, so I mean that’s how it goes through to April ’45.
CM: Well, there you can see the tour, the tour expired citation. Can you see that? Tour expired.
HB: Hang on.
CM: It would be in the last few pages of my logbook.
HB: Yeah. First operational tour completed.
CM: That’s it.
HB: 9th of April.
CM: Just got to put a tour in before the end of the war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I was still, I was very young you know Mr Hartley. I was always, I wasn’t a kind of a middle aged old bastard. [laughs]
HB: Oh no. No.
CM: I was quite youthful.
HB: Oh no [laughs] I mean, I mean you were born in ’22.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And you’ve gone in there at what? Nineteen? Twenty?
CM: That’s right. That’s right. Nineteen.
HB: Nineteen. Right. And, and —
CM: I joined —
HB: Then you finished, you finished your tour there and —
CM: Kiel. It’s on the top of the —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Your last one was Kiel.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Naval, the naval arsenal.
CM: And on that raid there’s the battle cruiser, German pocket battleship. The last one that was [unclear]. We sank that on that raid. It was moored in the Kiel Harbour. It was moored at the side of the quay and it turned over.
HB: Oh right.
CM: As well as other members of the Bomber Command which were much more [unclear] than me. They sank the Tirpitz in Trondheim harbour. It wasn’t me that did that.
HB: No
CM: But Bomber Command sank more battleships than the Navy.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It’s incredible that when you think of it.
HB: That’s amazing that. Right. So we’ve got — we’ve now gone to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham.
CM: Tuddenham. Yeah.
HB: But before we get there. Right. We were talking about girlfriends earlier on.
CM: Girlfriends. Not Tuddenham.
HB: We were talking about entertainment and dances and all this sort of business and this carry on.
CM: Scandals.
HB: No. No. No. I’m not after, I’m not after scandals.
CM: They’re not scandals.
HB: I’m not after scandals at all but if you want to tell me any scandals I’ll talk to you.
CM: There weren’t many scandals.
HB: But did you actually, looking at the picture on the wall you obviously met your wife during the war.
CM: No.
HB: No.
CM: No. I married my wife just after the war. My first wife.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And —
HB: And did you meet, did you meet your wife during the war?
CM: No. She was a girlfriend from home.
CM: Right.
HB: Jean Smith. Unfortunately, we were married for about, only about three or four months she became pregnant.
HB: Right.
CM: And about a few months after that she had a miscarriage and she had, she contracted tuberculosis. Galloping tuberculosis and within six weeks we knew she was going to die.
HB: Oh no.
CM: Just this, this galloping thing. You couldn’t. Just a few months after that they found a cure for tuberculosis. Even this severe one that Jean had. But it was too late for her.
HB: Was that when —
CM: She went down just like I’m doing, it happened to have, no matter what I eat I can still lose weight.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just lose weight. But that’s the same with poor Jean no matter what she ate she turned in to a shadow and just faded away.
HB: And what, when was that? What —?
CM: That was in ’46 I think, really.
HB: 1946.
CM: Because I’d, I’d left the Air Force by then but I didn’t stay left because as soon as Jean died I thought well what the hell do I do? Going back to the steelworks. Three shift system, you know. I think I’ll go back there. I was very happy in the Air Force. So my father said well Jean I’m afraid that we weren’t going to keep her long like. So I wasn’t long in the when I left the Air Force I was sent home, you know, and she just died. So she died and I wasn’t the sort of man to hang around of course and I started going out before I met Shirley. My beloved wife. My really beloved wife. Married fifty seven years. Two children. And a beauty. Look at that photograph on your right hand side.
HB: Oh yes. I’ve, I’ve already seen the photos. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And you see that on the wedding photograph I haven’t got the common sense to hold my wife by the hand. I said why couldn’t it, to anybody that sees that now, ‘Oh, you made a mess of that Kit lad.’ I said, ‘Why didn’t the photographer say for Christ’s sake. Hold your wife by the hand.’ Not hold your belt by the hand. But they didn’t. Now, if I’d been a photographer I think I would have said, ‘Hold your wife by the hand.’ Certain things, certain trades must do that’s to make sure that the pose is right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: However, it’s nice. You see my wife. She was only eighteen then.
HB: So where did you meet Shirley?
CM: Grimsby. I was stationed at Binbrook.
HB: Right.
CM: I figured out that for over five years I was in two Bomber Command squadrons.
HB: Right.
CM: 12 and 101.
HB: Right. Right. So, so when we’re, so let’s just go back to 218. You’re in 218.
CM: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: You’re based at Woolfox Lodge.
CM: Well, when tour expired the crew left. All the crew. Leaving me behind because I had just been promoted to warrant officer. They wanted a warrant officer to take charge of the parachute section. So they left me behind. And they said also, ‘You’ve done a few trips less than your crew. Therefore, you’ll be available for a spare.’
HB: Right.
CM: So I was, so I was a new warrant officer and I was still on the squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: Which had the parachute section.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I had to pack that in deliberately because the chap in charge of the parachute section, genuinely head of the section itself came to me. He said, ‘Mac,’ I didn’t let the fact that he’d missed out the sir because I was a warrant officer by then. And he said, ‘They’ve got fifty parachutes not on inventory.’ Right. I said, ‘Yes,’ knowing what was coming. He said, ‘Well, if they’re not on the inventory they don’t belong to anyone.’ He said, ‘We could make ourselves a little bit of money here.’ I got a cold, I remember feeling a cold feeling. I’ve gone through a tour of operations. I’ve risked my life and I never knew, knowing the McVickers luck I was going to be found out before I could say one word I was going to be found out. So, I said, ‘No. I want nothing to do with this,’ and I went straight from there to my commanding officer at the station, not the station commander the one that’s responsible, and said, ‘I have a problem sir.’ He said, ‘What is it?’ I said, ‘It’s very personal sir but it’s taken me a long time to think about this.’ He said, ‘You’ve got, I think you’ve told me this you’d better get on with it. And I said, ‘My flight sergeant, he wants me to do a, about the inventory.’ I said, ‘I want absolutely nothing to do with it.’ He said, ‘You’ve done the right thing.’
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: ‘You’ve done the right thing.’ And all that’s happened as far as I know he was just taken off. Taken off. Was posted.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I’ve shared this because I felt very guilty about this. He said, ‘It’s your duty to do that.’ So that was a bit of guilt in my life.
HB: Yeah.
CM: However, it is. It is. It was the right thing to do. If I’d been involved I would have lost my whole career on operations. All the medals would have [makes noise] you know.
HB: Yeah. Everything.
CM: So anyway I I don’t know whether that would figure in your synopsis but they’d say, ‘Was he a nice chap?’ ‘No, in all my years he was a bastard after all.’ You know.
HB: No. No. No. No. What, I mean what obviously what you’re now telling me is, is this is, this is at the end of the war and there’s big, obviously a big change of attitudes.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Now. So, and and you’re posted out to Conversion Units and you, and you eventually end up at Binbrook.
CM: That’s right.
HB: As a warrant officer there. And I mean there you’ve, it’s still very intensive. Even in 1947 you’re still flying. Flying an awful lot.
CM: Oh, that’s right. Flying was there. That was still a bomber squadron.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In fact I used to say to Mike Chalk my friend, he said, ‘We’re the only two buggers that, we’re the only two wireless operators left on the squadron.’ I said, ‘We can’t be operational.’ Then the Korean war came up and we had, we had not only Binbrook but all the crews there were no more than you could purpose with four or five to crew. Couldn’t make up proper crews.
HB: Oh right.
CM: So, by this time they started the new ranks. I don’t know if you know anything about this. Because this is something that should be very interesting to you. What happened immediately after the war. If you look at this photograph here.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Take a little look standing up, Harry.
HB: Oh no, I’ve seen that one.
CM: And what do you see on the arm of your favourite flight sergeant? By that time ranks had changed and I was, can you see that rank?
HB: That’s. Is that, is that the change to master.
CM: No. That was the master. That was signaller 1. Three. Three stars and a crown.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, that was the same as flight sergeant. I’d been reduced to flight sergeant anyway so they reduced me even further to signaller 1 which was the same as a flight sergeant. So anyway, it resulted in a mass exodus.
HB: Right.
CM: Of people. Some of the officers had been given a commission by an interview and there they were walking around. Didn’t touch them at all.
HB: Right.
CM: So people got fed up with this because there were still more NCOs than officers and of course they were leaving in droves. The next we knew that’d, just over two years and the next thing we knew was revert. Take the stripes off, take the stars off, revert back to whatsaname, whatever that indicated. And in my case it was flight sergeant so put flight sergeant stripes on. Same as there.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So —
HB: Got one there.
CM: Not many people know about this.
HB: No. No.
CM: At the same time it’s a very important aspect of Bomber Command after the war. Not only Bomber Command but all the Commands.
HB: Yeah. Yes.
CM: All aircrew. The NCOs were given a kick in the teeth and shat on from a very great height.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Now, they recognise that there’s been that but they promised there’d be recognised, all that they should be kept the aircrew separate from the sergeants but it was good that way but what we sort of did was the complete dislocation of all the squadrons of Bomber Command. They didn’t have, they didn’t have a Bomber Command.
HB: No.
CM: By this. Not very much talked about that but I can show you letters I’ve written there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: About this.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I think this is relevant.
HB: It is. It’s all, it’s all relevant. It is all relevant.
CM: You didn’t know about this and yet you’re an interviewer.
HB: No.
CM: You can see it there.
HB: No.
CM: Passed the —
HB: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Because it was only because I had certificate that I was married. Jean. You’ve seen Jane.
HB: Yeah.
CM: My other daughter. That’s her as a baby. That’s in —
HB: So that so that, that’s occurring as the Korean war’s —
CM: That’s right.
HB: Brewing up.
CM: Though Bomber Command wasn’t involved at all in the Korean war.
HB: No. No.
CM: Because they couldn’t be. They didn’t have enough crews. Now, you see that must have hit the people who organised this. It must have hit them with a hell of a wallop. They were responsible for the absolute the demolition of one of the most powerful weapons known to history. The Bomber Command was as you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Far bigger than the American Air Force in, in its numbers. And don’t forget they made big mistakes, the Americans at the beginning of the war. They thought they could fight the fighters off. They couldn’t.
HB: No.
CM: They shot a lot of fighters down but they couldn’t fight them off.
HB: No.
CM: They lost fifty aircraft, fifty each on two of the ball bearing plants at Schweinfurt.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s a hundred and twenty aircraft. No. A hundred aircraft. A hundred aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
CM: These B17s. There were only them that you can recognise and of course Bomber Command and I think my God and they introduced this new rank and they all kept going out in droves and asking to get premature release. We’ve destroyed a really good Air Force. That, that is never talked about.
HB: No.
CM: But I talked about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I wrote a letter [unclear] a student.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You’ll have to come again. I put it all down in black and white.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I’ll show it to you. You might, you might create a, Mr Hartley what’s known as a coup.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Because nobody else knows about it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And I’ll show you something and you might think after all you must have the better interviewing technique. You speak with posh language but you didn’t get this information.
HB: No. No. That’s true.
CM: You flashed a photograph of me out in my, in my James Bond days. I was auditioning for James Bond [laughs] You see.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Things are made in —
HB: Was this occurring after you’d gone to the instructor’s school? Or before?
CM: It was, it happened if you look at my logbook it says it should be ‘47.
HB: So I’ve got you going, I’ve got you going to Scampton in July ’47.
CM: That’s right. I was on detachment there.
HB: On Lincolns.
CM: That’s right. Because all the Bomber Command was on, at Binbrook.
CM: All Lincolns.
HB: Yeah.
CM: All Lincolns.
HB: And so was, so the time you’re talking about when they decimated the NCO level.
CM: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Is that before ’47 or after?
CM: Well, it was 1948.
HB: Oh right. Right.
CM: I was married in ’48 look at the bit.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Even though I’m wearing a, what’s, look carefully a warrant officer’s uniform right. If you look carefully you can just see the badge.
HB: Yeah. With the circle.
CM: But we were allowed to wear the officer’s uniform because at that time there was a hell of a shortage of uniforms.
HB: Oh right.
CM: And just keep on wearing it until as soon as we get new uniform. So there we were parading around as warrant officers even though we weren’t. And eventually we had to have the warrant officers tapes off and put the whatsanames on, but that was very humiliating you know Harry.
HB: Yes, I can imagine.
CM: And just you remember especially the warrant officer suddenly got bumped to sergeant’s stripes. Stars instead of stripes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was just humiliating in the extreme. There was a tremendous amount of ill hateful feeling about it in the squadrons. They detested the officer who kept the, nobody who kept their own rank.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And at the same, they graduated as officers, they graduated as, but the same, exactly the same training. Exactly the same job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yet they were left alone.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that of course that led to tremendous resentment.
HB: Yes, I can imagine.
CM: But regardless of what happens in this interview I will dig out certainly this for your own personal viewing.
HB: Yeah. Oh, I’d be, no, I’d be, I’ll be interested in that. I’ve got a — I don’t know if I’ve read this right. I’ve got you here in your book. In your, in your logbook at number 100 Torpedo Bomber Squadron, Hemswell.
CM: That’s right. That was the squadron when I came and joined the Air Force. I was posted to Hemswell. Hemswell was.
HB: Is this when you, when you rejoined?
CM: When I rejoined the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And that was August. I’ve got August ‘47.
CM: ’47 would be.
HB: August ‘47 for that. Yeah. And then it goes. And then it goes through. Were you instructing there?
CM: No. At Binbrook, no. I was a —
HB: No. At Hemswell.
CM: At Hemswell.
HB: With the torpedo bombers.
CM: That was a detachment, I think. No. That was at, this was what was the squadron name at the top?
HB: It just says number 100 torpedo bomber squadron.
CM: That’s right. That’s right. That’s Hemswell.
HB: At Hemswell.
CM: I was just attached to the squadron. Binbrook was being resurfaced.
HB: Ah right. Right. That — yeah. Yeah. Because then you returned to Binbrook.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. I see what you, I see what that, I see what that does. So you’ve come through to ‘47 ’48.
CM: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: And you’ve gone to 12, 12 Squadron.
CM: 12. That’s right. Famous squadron.
HB: At Binbrook.
CM: VCs. The VCs were the two men who sacrificed their lives at the bridges at the invasion. You know, they bombed the bridges and both were killed, attacking success of one of those bridges and they both got VCs. But they’re all [unclear] the Fairey Battle this was.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: At the beginning of the war. But the airman that was flying with them wasn’t a sergeant. He was an LAC so the thing is this. The argument that he was an LAC. Therefore he wasn’t entitled to a DFC but as a LAC he wasn’t entitled but also quite obviously to the DFM which the two sergeants had got. The VC, sorry the two sergeants had got. He got nothing, but the LAC was doing the exactly the same job as the pilot and the navigator who got, two got VCs. They couldn’t leave him out and isolate as if he’d done nothing. God knows what acts of bravery he would have done, but they didn’t. They just a little kind of, little bit of [unclear ] but they got VCs and he got nothing at all. That was quite a bit, that was at 12 Squadron. That was a squadron to which I belonged at that time. The chap called Norris [unclear] and on Pampas and Seaweeds.
HB: Yeah.
CM: We did, did a lot of Mousetrap trips on those squadrons
HB: Yeah. I noticed. I noticed that in your —
CM: Pampas.
HB: Operation Pampas. Yeah.
CM: And on one of those trips we met the Queen Mary in 17 degrees west and Nogger said, he said to the crew, ‘This a chance I wouldn’t miss for a thousand years.’ A thousand pounds. I’m not sure which. I think it was pounds. And we said, ‘Yes, Nogger,’ because we were all in awe of him. He was a skilful pilot.
HB: Which, which was he?
CM: We did an exhibition of flying to the occupants of the Queen Mary that they’d never seen in their life. Much better than you’d ever see in the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He did everything.
HB: Was his name Norris?
CM: Nogger Norris. Yeah.
HB: Nogger Norris.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: And I took a photograph of the Queen Mary but it was taken with my father in law’s box brownie camera. So, it was, even though I was pretty close to it it looks as though it was farther away.
HB: Yes. Yeah.
CM: But when we took the photograph with one of these alongside, Giles the cartoonist was on board the Queen Mary. Right.
HB: Right.
CM: He was on board.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he, and Giles saw this, he saw this going on. This kind of shooting up. And he drew a cartoon of it and on the cartoon you could see the Lincoln aircraft 17 degrees west shooting up very close to the Queen Mary. In caricature. In drawing.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So, we didn’t know about that. So when we got back after all this shooting up and God knows what. I lost my trailing aerial as well. Is it in the book?
HB: There’s a thing in here. It just says trailing aerial struck by lightning.
CM: Do you see how many hours it is?
HB: Eight hours thirty five.
CM: Eight hours.
HB: Yeah.
CM: All through the Pampas you’ll see they’re all about six hours. So, the captain —
HB: Yeah.
CM: We came back late wanted to know exactly where we’d been for the two hours that’s missing. So Nogger Norris knowing this, before we landed said, ‘Don’t forget chaps. We haven’t seen the Queen Mary. Ok.’ So, when we landed we kept our buzz. A good crew. We kept it mum.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So the first thing that happened was the flight sergeant in charge of the ground staff got Nogger and [unclear] over to see the where my aerial left the aircraft. And my aerial left the aircraft, came down the, fair lead from the reel, down where we sat through the hole in the bottom of the aircraft and about three or four inches down at the fuselage it had welded itself onto the side of the fuselage about nine feet. It was nine feet along the fuselage, just up the fuselage, welded and beyond that there was a little nidge of about an inch and a half sticking up and it was beautifully rounded at the end. And the flight sergeant said to Nogger and I, he said, ‘That takes a bit of power to do that.’ To do that.
CM: Yeah.
CM: It takes a few volts to do that.’
CM: Yeah.
CM: I thought, Christ almighty all those millions of volts within two feet of my Charlie.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So, anyway it was interesting at nine o’clock the following Monday morning. This was a Friday night, Friday morning. The commanding officer [unclear] there, Nogger there and me here and the other navigator Chuck. I can’t remember his name now. It’s a terrible thing. Those names would have come easily six years ago.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And just as he started I was right though about these missing two hours. And suddenly the shutters opened at the back and the adjutant popped his head through. He said, ‘Sir. Sir.’ He said, ‘Adj, I told I wasn’t to be disturbed for the next, the next hour.’ He said, ‘I think you’d like being disturbed by what I’ve got to show you.’ So, he said, ‘What is it? What is it?’ So the Adj took something in from the fellas and said give it to the commanding officer. And [unclear] remembered stern faced [pause] And I saw his face changing from stern to kind of a little smile at the edge of his face. And eventually [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
CM: He said, ‘Nogger,’ gave him the papers, ‘I know exactly what you were doing for those two hours.’ And of course it ended up with laughter. Because no harm had been done.
HB: No.
CM: And there was the, Giles with his family aboard the, the Queen Mary and on the side of the ship you see a beautiful sketch of the our aircraft. Can you believe that?
HB: I can. I can believe it.
CM: I cut it out, put it in my logbook and it rotted for the next twenty years. and just rotted away. And when we decided to put these down, these things down in print I realised that I didn’t have this. Now all my family, all my, have you seen them, have you seen them?
HB: Yeah.
CM: And others as well have tried to get copies of that. It’s not, it’s not to be got. Even the people getting back, the back, the numbers of the aircraft, of the Daily Express.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: It wasn’t there either. But Fiona looked up my career in the Air Force list as a warrant officer in the air force list she found it wasn’t listed and it said not to be released until 2022.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be, it’ll be in the Official Secrets Act.
CM: So, so because that’s nothing to do with the Queen Mary. It also stopped me from having any contact with other things attached to that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So that I didn’t get it. Peter particularly at the museum museum archives but they couldn’t get that.
HB: No.
CM: But somebody’s got it. So I couldn’t make a proper story about it because I didn’t have the proof. Because people would say, ‘Oh yes, I’ve seen that. Oh yes. Indeed.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: But that was it.
HB: So then.
CM: I’m listening.
HB: We get to 1949 and we’re off to shorts.
Shorts and topi and off to the sunshine in Egypt.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Was that, what was —
CM: Shallufa. Then we went there and Bomber Command went there after the war. For a month every, like six or seven months I was there. Eight or nine months.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The desert was good weather. It was good flying weather.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s what was good. That’s what we went for. Took off from Shallufa and we did El Shatt. I always thought that couldn’t be the proper name. El Shatt. E L S H A T T. El Shatt. I was ashamed of putting it in my logbook [laughs] Bombing range.
HB: And yeah like you say just there for a few months and then you know what what accommodation did you live in in Egypt then? For those few months.
CM: Nissen. Nissen.
HB: In the Nissen hut.
CM: Well, the Nissen was corrugated iron. They were small.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Plenty of wood there and that sort of stuff.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And then you’re back to —
CM: Don’t forget that Shallufa in the winter was colder. It was colder in Shallufa than it was in Binbrook.
HB: Yeah. I can, oh I can believe that. Yeah.
CM: By God, I’ve experienced some cold. Literally shivered. And shivered all night.
HB: Yeah.
CB: Couldn’t get warm.
HB: And you’re back to Binbrook.
CM: That’s right. Detachment you see.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] 12 Squadron detachment and 101 Squadron detachment.
HB: And then [pause] this is where the change comes isn’t it? In 1949. Because you go to Scampton on a Conversion Unit.
CM: Scampton. That’s right.
HB: And then. And then you go to 101. Binbrook.
CM: That’s right. I went back to Scampton because that was the Lancaster Finishing School then.
HB: Right.
CM: Right. So, that led to the —
HB: Yeah. Oh. Yeah. You did say. You did say that. Sorry I just need to keep checking this. The batteries.
CM: They won’t be able to understand a word I’ve said, Harry.
HB: Well I can understand you and that’s all that’s all, that’s all that’s important.
CM: You’re nearly a, you’re nearly a Geordie yourself.
Other: Dad.
CM: Yes, dear.
Other: In ten minutes I’ve got, I’ve got an appointment.
CM: Fiona, darling, I thought you’d gone. Didn’t you think she’d gone, Harry?
Other: No. I’m sitting here but in ten minutes I’m going to have to go because I’ve got an appointment in Ashby at 2. So I’ll go on my appointment.
CM: That’s right.
Other: It’s just, it’s just the flats.
CM: Make sure Harry’s alright. A glass of whisky maybe.
Other: Can I get you anything at all, Harry?
HB: No. No. I’m fine. I’m fine.
Other: Would you like another drink?
HB: As long, as long, as long as Kit is alright.
Other: He’s got his cup of tea. Dad has his lunch at —
CM: The only thing that’s wrong with me is ninety five [unclear]
Other: Dad has his breakfast really late like, you know sort of late late so he has his meal, his lunch sort of often about 4.30. So he’s —
CM: Oh yes. That’s it.
Other: But, so I will come back, dad after I’ve done my appointment.
CM: Yeah. Ok.
Other: My son is wanting to buy a flat in Ashby.
CM: Right.
Other: And we’ve got an appointment to look around it with him.
HB: Right.
Other: Just to see what we think. And we cancelled it yesterday because we got stuck in traffic. So I’ll go.
HB: Well, what, what I’ll probably do is.
Other: I’ll come back.
HB: I’ll finish the interview and then I’ll contact you later and let you know how we’re going to come back.
CM: That’s right. I said to —
Other: You’re most welcome if you think you —
CM: Fiona said, ‘Oh he won’t, he’s not interested at all in what you did after the war. He’s not interested in,’ this and that. And I said, ‘You don’t know what he’s interested in until he comes.’ I thought about this because that is something that I think is very, that people should know about.
HB: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Other: It’s an interesting one.
CM: The dirty trick that the Bomber Command well not just bomber but the Air Force generally.
HB: But it, it’s that transition period we are also interested in.
Other: Yes.
HB: Because we’re going from a time of world war.
Other: Yeah. Conflicts.
CM: That’s right
HB: Into a peacetime and policing operations.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Of, you know Korea and all those.
CM: That’s one of the reasons why we never got the medals. Can’t you see that. We can’t demote them, treat them as S H I T and then kind of go we’ll give them medals as well.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Couldn’t do it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So that was what the fuss was about. We didn’t. We were not even honoured in Bomber Command.
HB: Yeah. Well, it’s a quarter past one. I’m going to just stop the tape for a minute while —
CM: Ok.
HB: Your daughter goes.
HB: And then I’ll restart it in a —
Other: And if you wish —
[recording paused]
HB: Right. We’re recommencing the interview. We have had cups of tea and a comfort breaks. So we’ve moved on now to around about 1952 at RAF Watton in 192 Squadron.
CM: Central. Central Signals Establishment to use its full name.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s to mask what it actually did. It was a spy squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: But Central Signals Establishment gave it a kind of fancy name but [unclear] believe anything if you like. Not a hundred percent anyway.
HB: That might, that might answer the question. In your logbook you’re flying with Flight Lieutenant Neil.
CM: Yeah. Flight lieutenant. He was, that was on Super Fortresses. In other words B29s.
HB: B29s.
CM: I’m an ex, an ex-Boeing B29 wireless operator.
HB: Yeah. Were they called Washingtons?
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The Washington was an American name for an American aircraft.
HB: Right.
CM: But we called them Washingtons. American but it was also British.
HB: Right.
CM: So there was a Washington [unclear] married them both together.
HB: So in your logbook it says your duty on [pause] in at the end of 1952 was left scanner and right scanner and special operator.
CM: Spec op. That’s what you called spec ops because you did this job I was telling you about. I don’t know whether I’ll be shot at dawn about this but it’s still secret. Top secret. But it was literally finding out the frequencies of the radars and the special operations. We did that. Once we got that we could be able to jam it. To jam it. And once you knew where the frequency was on the end of the spectrum you could put a jam in there and make it impossible to operate.
HB: So who’s, who’s radars were you trying to discover?
CM: Yeah. But I don’t know how you can’t mention that without breaking the Official Secrets.
HB: You won’t break the Official Secrets Act now.
CM: Yeah. As I said in this Fiona found out that nothing’s to be divulged about me personally in the Air Force until 2022. My hundredth birthday. So you make that of what you will.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But the B29 as I say were a joy to fly after Lincolns. We used to, we used Lincolns to Watton before that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But the B29 was a luxurious aircraft. Do you know that it was separated by a tunnel? There’s the front end of the aircraft right the co-pilot, the captain and the engineer and all this but the back end of the aircraft was nothing else but spec ops. Right.
HB: Right.
CM: And the whole thing was connected like, like two bellows. The front bit was pressurised. There was a tunnel going over the bomb bay to the rear compartment. So to get from the front to the rear they crawled along the tunnel.
HB: Oh right.
CM: It was from here to well just beyond the window there you know.
HB: So you’re talking —
CM: No bigger. No bigger than that wide.
HB: So you’re talking a good twelve fourteen feet then of tunnel.
CM: That’s right. So getting there hurt your knees crawling up and down so people didn’t tend to go forward. Anyway, the two people at the back were about that stationed from the observer point.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s the back end of the tunnel. To see, to be able to see the engines, all the engines, the flaps. Right. And the undercarriage. They couldn’t see them from the front.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Even the engineer. So I was the left scanner and right scanner but the eyes for the engineer who couldn’t keep on crawling back and forwards along the tunnel.
HB: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So important.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I always went for the right scanner because I felt that it was the one place to be to keep a good lookout for the —
HB: Right.
CM: And sway up and down left scanner, right scanner. Otherwise it would be, you couldn’t put spec op. You could be spec op, yes. But on transit you were just kind of sat sitting. You used to fly from Watton to Nicosia in Cyprus and then fly from there the next day with all these aerials. There was an armed guard when we landed in Nicosia and the aircraft was never ever left alone. And the next day we would take off with the full crew of course and the trip would be about, we’d be down there eleven hours, twelve hours doing nothing else but scanning all the frequencies. Picking up their radars. You had to be very lucky because they knew when there was spy aircraft around. They’d switch off. But they had to switch on to see where that spy aircraft was. So watching out all ready to go because it only took a few seconds. It was on. You recognised it. You’d press a button. The camera would take a photograph.
HB: Right.
CM: So I scanned the photograph and the recording and did this virtually the same thing as sitting at home and doing this thing with you, because as we were doing that the recording, they’d take it back to Watton and you’d see it properly. You didn’t see it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: They had —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yeah. Boffins.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Boffins. Whatever they are.
HB: Yeah. The boffins.
CM: Boffins.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it was an important job and I think I was part of the Cold War as well as the hot war. So that should —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Be a footnote of that thing that I said. Mr McVickers bravely advanced for the, to be a spec op and took part in the Cold War. Which I did.
HB: Well that’s right. I mean, I mean it’s, it’s very obvious from your logbook that —
CM: I’m a lying bastard.
HB: No. Oh, no. No. No. No. Nowhere near. No. You’ve certainly, you’ve certainly done a bit. I mean there’s, there’s a section here that’s quite fascinating because in the middle of doing your spec ops and whatnot you go to the School of Marine Reconnaissance.
CM: No. No. That was when I was posted there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So when you’re posted you’re still kind of doing whatever you were doing beforehand.
HB: Right.
CM: They sometimes overlapped a bit before you went and it’s doing middle of the road.
HB: Yeah.
CM: A flew flights, you know. That’s what it amounts to.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The School of Maritime Reconnaissance now.
HB: Yes.
CM: The Royal Air Force, St Mawgan, Newquay, Cornwall. It should be on top of the whatsthename —
HB: Yeah.
CM: That was, that was a five months course. Now within, after doing four months to start the flying phase of it the CO sent for me and said they were very very short of flyers at 224 Squadron. I said, ‘What do you mean, sir?’ He said, ‘They desperately need a signaller.’ And I said, ‘I really am not the person to pick. I’ve been off the flying for five years. I’ve done no flying on this and I’m on a course. I’m on a [unclear] aircraft radar work at all.’ ‘Nevertheless,’ he said, ‘You can, with all your experience could pick it up with no trouble at all.’ That wasn’t true. When I got to 224 Squadron which was down there if you looked at 224 squadron —
HB: I’ve got 22 —
CM: Not 224.
HB: I’ve got 220.
CM: That’s the one. 220 Squadron.
HB: 220 Squadron.
CM: 220 Squadron.
HB: Yeah. St Eval.
CM: St Eval.
HB: St Eval.
CM: And that’s —
HB: That was on Shackletons.
CM: Well, within, within about a fortnight they realised that I wasn’t trained on the radar and the radar was the most important thing. I wasn’t trained on it. So I thought — I was in a hell of a state. And I told the commanding officer that I’m really not trained for this work. But I’ve just been sent. I’d no idea at all why I was sent there because Cornish the commanding officer said to me, ‘We don’t need you. We don’t need any training chaps, we’re fully, fully committed.’ So I thought what the hell is going on here?
HB: Yeah.
CM: I think, now during the time I was there they sent me to to Mount Batten. Now Mount Batten was the headquarters of Coastal Command. And I was replacing a man who was doing Anson flying. Supposed to be an instructor. A very important instructor flying from station to station and everything. And the man had gone sick for something. Obviously transitory. But when I appeared on the scene he suddenly made a remarkable recovery.
HB: Right.
CM: So I was stuck there at Mount Batten [unclear] let’s get it right here because Mount Batten is the commanding. This is the most important place in Coastal Command. Why don’t you use that to do something for yourself? So I went to see the postings department which posted all the people in Coastal Command. Everything was done from there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I flannelled one of the, with the WAAF officers who were there. I said I’m in a bit of a dilemma here Miss, Ma’am and explained what had happened and everything, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘I think we can probably do something for you. What would you like to do?’ So I said, ‘Well, there’s one Neptune station dealing with nothing else but Neptunes. Lockheed Neptunes.’ I said, ‘This is based in Topcliffe in Yorkshire and would be ideal for me for getting home and everything else and also picking up, because I’d been on a course, picking up on what had left out in being mid-course. ’I said ‘Perfect solution, She said. She said to me ‘Your next course. I’ll put your name down. I’ll put your name down now. So it’s finished. Nothing has happened. You go.’
HB: Right.
CM: So when I went back to the station. St Eval. 220 Squadron. I could say to the people I’m posted. You know. I obviously shouldn’t have been here in the first place. I’ve been reposted. So I was gash again. I was completely gash. And I just spent my time sitting in the mess and making myself a bloody nuisance where ever I went, you know. And soon enough, as soon as the [unclear] came up I got the posting off to go to Kinloss to do the Neptune course.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was on Neptunes for two and a half years. The best aircraft I’ve ever flown in my life.
HB: And what was, what was the Neptune?
CM: Lockheed Neptune. I’ll show you what.
HB: Oh, that was, it was —
CM: Lockheed was the one before the Boeing, well after the Boeing but —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Because obviously you’d been flying on Shackletons.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And then you go to Neptune.
CM: I’m afraid it will have to wait now for the next time you come actually.
HB: Oh, no, don’t worry about that. I’ve found. Yeah. I’ve found Topcliffe now. Yeah. With Coastal Command.
CM: That’s right. It’s all Coastal Command.
HB: Yes.
CM: That’s a Bomber Command Lincoln. That’s one of the Lincolns. If you look at the SR is the code letters.
HB: Right.
CM: The code letters for 101 Squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: We, I was on B flight there, George [ ] was the co-pilot and the bomb aimer in the astrodome. That’s me. Best photograph I’ve ever had taken. You see they get access to the photograph.
HB: Yeah.
CM: What had happened, there had been an aircraft sent to take photographs of the villages and towns actually but the photographer being a clever little bugger he said it would far better if you had an aircraft superimposed and we happened to be airborne SR 101 Squadron.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Doing bombing at Wainfleet range. So, they called us up, ‘Are you finished there?’ ‘Oh, we’re finish in a few minutes.’ They said, ‘Go through to Cleethorpes and rendezvous with this aircraft that’s taken —'
HB: Oh right.
CM: And that’s how we got it.
HB: That’s how they took the photo.
CM: It’s a good photograph of Cleethorpes. You can see the [unclear]
HB: And that’s the, that’s the Lincoln aircraft. Right. Yeah.
CM: And that’s the Lincoln, that’s right. And that’s me.
HB: And that’s you in the astro.
CM: No matter how, no matter how vague it is that’s me. It’s one of the —
HB: Well, you need, you need to put that in the pile for, to copy. And that one definitely. Right. So, right we’ve got you, got you in Topcliffe and you’ve done rocketry and all those sort of things and then —
CM: Made drops to the weather ships.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Weather trips. All that sort of thing.
HB: So, I mean you were at Topcliffe a good, a good long time weren’t you?
CM: Two and a half years. I did a full tour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On Neptunes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I was the first. The first They took one, one squadron member from each squadron. At least one. One member and posted them separately just to see if it could be done. Suddenly they found themselves with all these Neptune crews. No pilot could have told us yarns, you know [laughs]
HB: Oh right.
CM: So, so the experiment they took the flight sergeant McVickers, that was me and Flight Sergeant Chalmers and another one called flight sergeant [pause] Oh I can’t remember his name. But [unclear] squadron, just us three people on a course on Neptunes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear]
HB: It’s alright. I’m just, I’m just double checking the battery. Make sure the battery’s still alright. Yeah. Yeah. That, yeah that’s an aspect that we don’t, that’s an aspect we don’t sort of come across, you know. Obviously they’re trying out different ways of putting.
CM: That’s it. Well, you see we’re flying there but tac incident said put that new chap Flight Sergeant McVickers on the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: A cold chill went down my spine. Because I hadn’t had any — I’d had exams. I’d had the exams instructions on the radars. The APS 20 and things like that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I didn’t have the practical. I’d never used it in the air. So I mean, to ask you to sit down and do something from scratch which I didn’t even know how to switch on, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Anyway, they forgave me for all that and telling me off and I did alright for two and a half years.
HB: So, so Neptunes. The Neptune. I mean, it goes, it’s obviously a well used aircraft.
CM: I’ll show you a photograph.
HB: For that.
CM: You’ve never seen anything like it.
HB: For that.
CM: It was the most luxurious aircraft I’ve ever seen in my life. Neptune. Never. There was one of these commanding officers, ‘Oh you can’t take photographs.’ [pause] Yes. If you come again. I know now what you’re after I’ll have anything ready.
HB: No. No. No. Worry not. Worry not about that. I mean the important thing is getting your, your story.
CM: Operations.
HB: Yeah. Absolutely. So, now, we’ve gone, you’ve gone to Kinloss in [pause] you’ve been on the Shackleton course. That’s in ’56. 1956.
CM: What was that in 1956?
HB: That was, that was you were at Kinloss in ’56.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Doing a course.
CM: Yeah.
HB: A Shackleton course.
CM: Yeah. That would be the Neptune course because there was flying attached to that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: We were flying on those. On Neptunes.
HB: And then [coughs] excuse me. You’ve got [pause] ’56 you’re off to 224 at Gibraltar.
CM: Gibraltar. Yeah. 224 Squadron.
HB: And that’s on Shackletons. Where were, where were you operating then from Gibraltar?
CM: Well, once again I’ve got to show you this. The base of Gibraltar. The base of the rock there’s an open space. And you can imagine the north face, they always shows the north face in Gibraltar so that’s the face facing north. Right in front of the north face of Gibraltar they built a runway. The sea is at one end at Algecirus Bay and then extended in to the rocks so the whole thing, was not enough room for a proper runway but they kept on building it out to sea, out towards Algecirus, Spain. So there was a long enough runway. Our photographs you can see sticking out of the Bay.
HB: Yeah. So, so you were you were obviously looking at your logbook you were flying out of there regularly. Did you cover the Mediterranean and —
CM: That’s right.
HB: Western approaches or —
CM: The Med, did cover the Med but also as you say the Western Mediterranean, but we did all the trips to Malta and Corsica and Sardinia and visiting there. North Africa of course.
HB: Yes.
CM: Is on the right hand side as you go along. So a lot of trips just landing there. Anyway, I did the exercise. Managed to survive. Became quite proficient at the radar but you know I thought that’s not fair for me. I’m cast out of my course.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Which I would have joined the squadron with the crew as to be a signalman. A signalman. It would be good to replace that man as a special job and he made an immediate recovery. The best thing that ever happened to him was me appearing. So I mean, he thought, oh Christ and he recovered.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was a cushy job.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean this is what sort of comes through in your logbook is you’ve got this level of consistency going through now.
CM: That’s right. I did.
HB: And, and as, as an air signaller and you were going through here [pause] sorry. What did I just notice? Yeah. That was something caught my eye. In 1957 you were doing communication trials with HM submarine Subtle.
CM: That’s right. I went to one trip to Ballykelly. We went, this chap and my number two and my signals team, we went to this submarine. HMS Subtle [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: And we went for a full day in a submarine. One of the, well one of the most enlightening experiences I’ve ever had.
HB: Yeah. So you actually went in the submarine.
CM: Yes. I’ll tell you something else. I’ve lifted the periscope up. Transferred, transferred into — I’ve watched the submarine sink from, from the periscope area.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They gave us two a really wonderful experience of a submarine. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: Which was invaluable for, that’s what we were there for. Submarine killers.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In Coastal Command that’s what we did. We looked for submarines and sank them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we were gaining experience that was something good. And they showed us, the crew showed us the biggest pile of pornographic material, photographs I’ve ever seen in my life. It was about this big. And the [unclear] as well. God, it really embarrassed me.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I never seen. Every angle. Every possible. I thought these people are all sex maniacs. Because we were getting it regular. This was the [laughs]
HB: Yeah. The, the where — what I’m, what I’m what I’m interested in is you started your career in wireless ops and wireless operator in the ‘40s and we’re now in to the late 50s.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Coming up to the 60s.
CM: New equipment is coming up.
HB: So all of that equipment as it comes along I mean, was it every time new equipment you came out you had to go on a training course?
CM: No.
HB: Or did you a lot of on —
CM: No. If there was something radical, something completely different you’d go on a training course, because nobody could do anything about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the men in the latter part were the men that got the Air Ministry details, put everything down, the whole thing. They’d learned from there. Then they’d teach the people who were going through the courses. That’s right. So the radar, the equipment on the Neptune aircraft is so far advanced that until just recently in the last ten or fifteen years it was still being used in the spy planes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was so accurate. The APS 20 it was called. Air Pulse Search.
HB: Air Pulse Search. Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Ever heard of that? Air Pulse Search.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the other one in the part of the wings, took part of the wings. One had the APS 30, the APS 31 and yet that’s just the system where you could lock on to an aircraft and home on the aircraft. Or anything. A ship.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Very very accurately with the APS 31. So the APS 31 and the APS 20 made perfect for long distance. They were used for aircraft coming in. The APS 20. An aircraft designed by the Americans for their aircraft, the Neptune was the aircraft used by us for long distance search except for the big fighter stations.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Air defence of Great Britain stations. They had their own.
HB: I’m interested in a note here in your logbook, Kit for [pause] we’re talking March 1958. And it’s something I’ve not seen anywhere else. You’ve suddenly got a list of it says, this is the 6th of March — anti-submarine air offensive operations.
CM: That’s right. It’s the whole squadron.
HB: A large [unclear] of those.
CM: The submarines, our submarines had taken the place of enemy submarines.
HB: Right.
CM: But about the German expression. They were enemy submarines. We had to find them. So they’d been given —
HB: Right.
CM: We had a good idea what they were using in submarines but we had to find out. In other words we had taken our submarines as being enemy submarines. We had to find out all about them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Well, that was really good training.
HB: Yeah. Ah right. That’s explained it then because I was, I was suddenly thinking 1958.
CM: I was stationed at Kinloss then.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Wasn’t I on the, that’s when I was on [ unclear]
HB: No. No. That was you were still at Gibraltar in ’48 err ’58 sorry. ’58.
CM: I was in Gib then.
HB: Yeah. You were in Gibraltar then. That’s what caught my eye was the fact that you got offensive operations but, yeah I understand that now. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s that transition you see that you’ve gone through all of this equipment. It’s, and its, I presume not only has it become more technical.
CM: Complex.
HB: It’s become small.
CM: Complex.
HB: Yeah. Complex. It’s almost become smaller as well.
CM: That’s right.
HB: I would presume.
CM: More adaptable.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The telephone valves, valves suddenly vanished off the face of the earth and first thing in this system, they got the APS 20 which was about this size.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It suddenly became about this size but the big thing was the screen.
HB: Right. So it went from, it went from the size of a coffee table down to —
CM: Well, yeah. In the [unclear] sense.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But, but it was an interesting job. Can you imagine to a schoolboy to be with all this anti-submarine equipment?
HB: Yeah.
CM: The finder. It was very very interesting. And if you’ve got something real on the screen. Something that was enemy, you know. Not so much enemy.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Simulated enemy. You think this person diving the submarine I have got him in my sights offensively [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: With depth charges which we had.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That, well that —
CM: We’d be doing the job which we knew we’d be employed in doing if a war broke out.
HB: That was your job. That was your job wasn’t it? And then we get to 1960 and you’re back to Kinloss [pause] flying Shackletons again.
CM: Yeah. This would be the Shackleton then would be in January was it?
HB: Yeah. Shackleton 1 it’s got. Yeah. You got people like, you got numerous pilots with you. All sorts of different pilots.
CM: I think that would be on [unclear] it was [unclear] training. Must have been flying the aircraft that trained them.
HB: Right. Right.
CM: Numbers and numbers of the —
HB: Yeah because you’ve got, you’ve got exercises.
CM: That’s right.
HB: A3, A1, A4, A5.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Not exercises for me but exercises for the pilots.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Trained in, that was for the aircraft and I was just crew then.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Did all the dogsbody stuff. All the stuff that —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. The sweeping up. Making the tea.
CM: I did cooking as well.
HB: Cooking.
CM: Oh we had a, you could get airborne for twenty four hours in a Shackleton, you know.
HB: Right.
CM: Twenty four hours. I never did one. I did a twenty two hour trip once but it’s too long. I think a complaint. ‘I’m not having this. You’d better cut my hours down.’
HB: Yeah. I mean there’s some seven and nine and ten hour flights here.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. And then yeah as I say you carry on, you carry on at Kinloss for a good old time again.
CM: So my next posting after that was I did a [unclear] on the ground staff doing, looking after these, they called the a space stage two trainer. Looking at simulating trips in the air but not leaving the ground.
HB: Right.
CM: You could make exercises. You could make them up all the time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So instead of wasting money on petrol you could do the same thing on the ground. Get the same experience. The same equipment and everything. So that was saving money.
HB: So was that, was that sort of classroom based or was that in some sort of simulator?
CM: No. This was actual equipment. You’d sit in these cubicles with the same stuff that you’d have in the aircraft.
HB: Right.
CM: You have use of the headquarters in these cubicles. You’d have other aircraft in these cubicles. And all the equipment.
HB: Yeah. So the cubicle would be set up exactly as if you were in the air.
CM: That’s it. But radar. Of course you couldn’t get a radar signal there so they simulated that. Simulated kind of things coming up.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But nevertheless you could save a lot of money by just doing it on the ground.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was all handle work. Key work.
HB: Yeah. I can see. I mean I can see in here that I’ve come to that part. Yeah. Of the sort of the sort of staff training and what not. The [pause] yeah because that I mean obviously the booths that you talk about that were set up, you know with the equipment.
CM: That’s right.
HB: They obviously became the forerunners of what we now know in the modern —
CM: Yeah.
HB: Era of the flight simulators.
CM: That’s right. That’s right. But the link trainer I mean, it’s a simulator.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But you can get, you can fly blind with. The thing is you couldn’t get airborne so got to fly blind there except for putting specs on, hoods on people which they did do. But it was too costly and too —
HB: Yeah.
CM: The link trainer fulfilled that role exactly. They couldn’t see anyway, so you had to go by the instruments.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: You see people used to use the instruments and have faith in the instruments you were using. That was good. The link trainer was good for that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: People who were poor at blind flying became excellent after a few spells on the link trainer.
HB: I have noticed throughout your logbook —
CM: Hmmn?
HB: I’ve noticed throughout your logbook there’s regular little comments signed by senior officers. Wing commanders and such of, “above average,” “high average.” That’s how they’re assessing you.
CM: That’s damning you with faint praise.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So where are we now? We’ve got to — now, yeah this is, this is the thing. 1963.
CM: Posted to Changi.
HB: You’re in — yeah.
CM: Posted to Changi.
HB: 205 Squadron, Changi.
CM: The best posting I ever had.
HB: Was it?
CM: My wife, she was a very good looking lass but by God the people there the commanding officers they wouldn’t, they would all make a beeline for Shirley whatever the occasion was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Commanding officers, flight commanders, ordinary people in reserve couldn’t get a look in. So, I said to Shirley, ‘Who are you with, darling? The commanding officer or me?’ ‘You darling.’ ‘Good.’
HB: So a little bit of marital strife there [laughs]
CM: Shirley and I had a very good looking daughter if you see photographs of Jane when she was fifteen sixteen.
HB: Yeah.
CM: She was a very good looking girl. Just like her mother.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Well I saw that in that photograph. Yeah. But so that again that’s flying out in the Shackleton Mark 2s and that’s and I presume that’s doing much of the —
CM: Well, you should come across somewhere there at Changi that we had a wall, if you look at my medals. I’ve got a medal which very very few people have had. Fiona’s put it somewhere where you wouldn’t miss it. So Fiona’s put my medals where we’ll never miss them so the chances are I’ll never find them.
HB: Oh no. Worry not about that.
CM: This one’s particularly good.
[pause]
HB: So that would be [pause] so I’m just trying to find it actually in here. Would that be, would that be Borneo? Would that be the Indonesian Confrontation?
CM: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.
HB: In ’63.
CM: That’s what I would show you if I could find the damned thing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The medal I got for it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Fiona’s, Fiona’s put it in a place —
HB: You’re a bit, you’re a bit far away from the recorder now Kit.
CM: My daughter has put my medals in a place where I can’t miss them. Therefore I know I’ll ever find them.
HB: Don’t worry about them.
CM: Ok.
HB: We’ll sort them out later. I was just trying to find —
CM: Well you’ll notice that those top of the. Something called Hawk Moths.
HB: Hawk Moths.
CM: Hawk Moths. We were fighting in the Indonesian confrontation.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there’s one thing we weren’t allowed to do Harry. We weren’t allowed to kill them.
HB: Oh right.
CM: It wasn’t a war. It was a confrontation. Once we started killing the bastards it went to a — so what we did they supplied from Sumatra. If you can imagine Sumatra or just in the Malacca Straits. There’s Malaya one side and Indonesia on the other.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Sumatra. But they used to go across from Sumatra to Malaya and do damage. Dropped by parachutes and people and all this business so we knew that we had to get these people as they’re flying, as they’re sheering across the Malay Strait with motor, motor torpedo boats they were, I think. Big boats but vulnerable. We found that the only thing we could frighten them to death with was this. We used to get, we used to have one, it was always at night. They always came across at night. They didn’t come across in daylight. The fighters would have got them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But they couldn’t do what we could do. We could kill them or make severely inconvenience them by a simple method of using our four engines.
HB: Right.
CM: Four Griffon engines. So much power. One thousand eight hundred and fifty horsepower and the propellers had to be contra rotating to absorb all the power. They had tremendous [unclear] Simple as a Shackleton pull you out of anything, any trouble you were in just open the throttles and get out of it. And what we used to do was to fire off these 1.5 magi flares. There was thirty six of them in banks of, packs of six. Six sixes are thirty six. Six sixes. Now, they used to burn. Burn in the air. Bang when they go up there and when they reached their zenith it would burst. It would burn with a really fantastic light for about thirty five, forty seconds. Not very long. But long enough at thirty five seconds to appear what was going on. And as they went out, bang another one would go off. And this was going out this would lit up again. So you could get maybe a minute of continuous light. A minute’s a long time.
HB: Yes. Yes.
CM: You know, you know the smart gun there, get the radar detector going towards it and just suddenly, they’re not expecting it up it would go. Bright as day. So what we could do then look at the boat going along from Sumatra to the main whatsaname Beach in Malaya.
HB: Malaya.
CM: And you’d fly towards Malaya ourselves so the boat length ways. Not that way but that way. So then —
HB: So you’re coming in on the side of the boat at ninety degrees.
CM: That’s it, but you’d go down to ten feet. Just above the waves and you opened the throttles and go over this boat. Just dead, bend down just a little bit and level off and the whole blast of this right against the, the force of it, the force against the boat and over she’d go, and all the crew as well.
HB: So it would capsize.
CM: Capsized. Yeah. That’s something else. You’ve got a scoop here.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I’ve never heard this mentioned anywhere, that was.
HB: And that, that’s in the —
CM: But you see it there as Hawk Moths.
HB: It’s Hawk Moth operations.
CM: You can see.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I can see Hawk Moth here.
CM: That was down in the Malacca Strait.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course we wouldn’t then, we’d find a few people. There’s always people swimming around.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we said after all if it doesn’t kill them they’ll probably get in to the boat anyway. You couldn’t sink these damned things.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But all the stuff had been tipped out.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the whole operation, their operation would be cancelled.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In other words we won the war.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: That’s why it’s important to me to find where Fiona has hidden my medals. So she can, she can find them easily.
HB: Oh we’ll find them. We’ll find them at the end of the interview, Kit. Don’t you worry.
CM: She’s lovely. She’s a lovely lass but by God she doesn’t have the thoroughness of Jane.
HB: Right.
CM: Jane’s very thorough.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. There’s quite a few. Quite a few of these Hawk Moth operations in there.
CM: And of course during my time there we won the war. Sukarno gave in.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: I was chosen to be the photographer at the HMS Bulwark and HMS Centaur, the Ark Royal and the huge fleet out there just out for the Confrontation. They formed two lines of ships. The capital ships, the aircraft carriers and the battleships and destroyers and all the little ships.
HB: Oh right.
CM: That were there. And we flew down through the, we had an avenue of ships and we were taking photographs actually.
HB: You were doing the aerial photos.
CM: I was on the verge of coming back, I never saw those photographs.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But I was chosen as the photographer. Photographer, you see. But that was, so that was the end of the Confrontation. The Indonese gave us a medal and we got another General Service Medal. So that added two medals to my which nobody, not many people —
HB: No.
CM: Certainly not many people in the war, my medal rate, did you see that? The medals. You still can read it.
HB: I saw, I saw the medals on the photographs.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there’s two short.
HB: Ah right. Yeah. Which is —
CM: The Indonesian one and the what’s the name.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s right, because they show the medals, that’s extra medals because the medals then were the general service medal and the Malaysian medal is on there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And there’s two complete rows. Well I’ve never seen anybody except me that’s got these two complete rows because I carried on after war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was on operational squadrons after the war. I was in a front line squadron.
HB: I was going to say it’s all operational isn’t it? Yeah.
CM: I was the last in.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s why I wanted to kind of make a special mention of me about the guerrilla boat because I think your word after getting this scoop. These two scoops.
HB: Yes, it does. Yes. That’s great because that takes us through to where are we? 1965.
CM: But I didn’t do any flying though at that.
HB: June ’65 you [pause] I think that was —
CM: I went, I wasn’t —
HB: Sorry. July.
CM: I was a missile, I was a missile controller at Neatishead.
HB: Yeah. Because, because we — yeah. We —
CM: That wouldn’t be in the logbook.
HB: Yeah. So we’ve done —
CM: They don’t put missiles in logbooks.
HB: I think [pause] I’ll just, I’ll just make absolutely sure about this.
CM: So, it’s a full career flying in front line squadrons all the time.
HB: Yes.
CM: So I’m quite proud of that.
HB: Yes. I mean you’re flying [pause] Let me have a look. You’ve got a Hawk Moth operation on the 16th of August 1965. And you’ve certainly flown some hours on that.
CM: Oh yes.
HB: And that —
CM: I flew a lot after the Indonesian conflict to start with.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But we did have a new flight commanding officer at that time and he took a shine to me.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Unlike some of the buggers [laughs]
HB: Yeah. So that’s where, that’s when your actual flying logbook finishes.
CM: That’s right.
HB: But then in ’65 you go — or ’66 sorry.
CM: I left in ’67.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I was on missiles. I was the controller at Neatishead. But unfortunately —
HB: At where?
CM: Neatishead. It’s the biggest, one of the biggest air defence stations.
HB: Neatishead.
CM: Neatishead. N E A T. Neat. I S. Neatis Head. H E A D.
HB: Neatishead.
CM: Neatishead.
HB: And that’s where?
CM: That’s Norfolk, I think.
HB: Norfolk. Right, right.
CM: But unfortunately, on my wife’s instructions I’d put in for a commission when I left whatsaname, I knew I was pretty well thought of, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I knew that Commanding Officer Harvey was, he loved, he literally, he kept treating my wife at every possible occasion. This came back to me. So I knew I was well in with him but whether he was going to translate that into a good recommendation, so I just applied. Nothing. And Fiona said err my wife Shirley said, ‘Have you still applied?’ So I banged an application in. Then I was posted to Neatishead. The first thing that happened, I was posted there. I had a good long spells of leave before I went there. The commanding officer said to me, a very nice man, he said, ‘I’ve had a recommendation,’ from your whatsaname, commission he said, I can’t possibly send this on unless I know something about you.’ Right. Oh sod off. I didn’t, I was deaf as a bloody post I think. I couldn’t care less about a commission. I was nearing the end of my time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I thought it was just incidental. I knew I would be, I knew it would waltz through it so what happened? I fell in very very much with a girl who was a flight lieutenant. God knows what her name is now but she was the WAAF commander. She sat at the desk opposite me.
HB: Right.
CM: And she and I became quite comfortable.
HB: Yeah.
CM: For want of a better word, she did. It wasn’t long before she asked me about, ‘Can you take me home in your car tonight, my car’s u/s.’ [unclear] I realised, my God at my age of forty four, forty three this bloody woman’s is in love with me.
HB: Oh dear.
CM: This ugly bastard like me, you know. This was so amusing. So I didn’t dare to mention that I was here but being the adjutant because I’d put or commission, but she seemed to know. She said to me now and then, she said to me, ‘Everything’s ok, you know. Everything’s ok.’ So from that I assumed that she was giving the reports to the whatsaname. The commanding officer hardly saw me. She was putting in the reports about me. Right. So I thought I can’t go on here. I’m a bit of a, I’ll have to find an excuse to get out of it because I’m as deaf as a bloody post. I had to go through all the treatments, ‘Sorry Mr McVickers. You’re deaf.’ You know, that real deep deafness was starting so I knew I wouldn’t get through anyway.’ Anyway, to cut a long story short they had this sent to have a big overhaul at Neatishead, all the whole thing. It been going for years and years. The whole thing’s has to be changed. They’re going to be away for, I think it was six weeks two months, it’s going to be overhauled, all the new equipment. Everything kind of renewed. So they sent me, because there’s nobody at the station virtually at Neatishead, there’s the ground bit and there’s the top of the hole. There’s a big hole. They put me with the other spec ops doing this job and sent me to Patrington which was another Air Defence of Great Britain station. But when I got there I found that the situation was different. The man who was in charge of everything there was a [pause] what’s the word, he was less senior than me. So they said, ‘Well, you’ll have to take over.’ So I said, ‘I can’t possibly take over the job. He’s been trained to be an air traffic controller. A missile controller. How the hell can I possibly do it?’ He said, ‘Well you’ll have to go on a course,’ but I said, ‘I can’t have this. The best thing would be for me to pack the whole thing in.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: They said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well if I haven’t been properly trained I’m going to be taking a job about which I know nothing.’ I was looking after all the missiles on the ground you know. I said, ‘I’m supposed to be a controller from Neatishead.’ Signalling the targets on the whatsaname and phoning them through to Woodhall Spa or [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of the other place actually, near Grimsby. There what I’m looking for. Just to pass the target on to them. Nothing else. I was the controller. Missiles controller.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the people there thought the best thing was I thought my god what’s going to happen suddenly coming home from Neatishead to say, ‘Report to for training for the commission.’ That’s the last thing in the world I wanted at the time.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I didn’t tell Shirley about that obviously but I’d certainly heard nothing about the commissions and I left the station. You know. Left the, my friend the WAAF. The flight lieutenant. The good looking WAAF, and suddenly I was unemployed. So I thought the best thing I could here is kept mum. I’m out. I’ve got a good job. A good job lined up and I thought far better to get a job at forty five then be an officer at fifty three or fifty four and find out nobody wants you.
HB: Yes.
CM: So I used my loaf and told Shirley what happened. She said, ‘Oh let’s get out. I’ll get a job as well.’ So she became, to cut a long story short, she’d been a photographer at some hotel just up the road apiece and this job came up in the Trading Standards Department saying they were starting a new section. A completely new department called Consumer Affairs. So they set out all the qualifications, sort of. ‘What a pity Shirley. You could have applied for that.’ She said, ‘I fully intend to apply. To apply for it.’ I said, ‘Well but you’ve had no training darling. You’ve got no qualifications except matriculation.’ So she said, ‘I’m going to apply.’ I said, ‘What are you going to put down for qualifications?’ She said, ‘Just that I’ve been a service wife for nineteen years. I’ve been nineteen years.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: So off she went and within a fortnight she got a letter back. She’d passed the first stage. We found out later there was seven hundred and odd applications. And that was the big weeding out.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And Shirley survived that. And I said, ‘If you survived that’s good. You must have looked good on paper.’ ‘Well,’ she said, ‘I did. I did a good job with that’. So the next was personal interviews. They took a long time actually. But after a while I said to Shirley. ‘What’s happened at this interview? What’s going on here?’ She said [pause] So I thought that she knows something that I don’t know.
HB: The tap on the nose. Yeah.
CM: So I’d better press her, I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, I’m your husband,’ you know. Got to get a job to save the family because I was getting two thousand two hundred at that time. ’67. When the national average was seven hundred and fifty.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was getting two thousand.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we would be digging into our capital. And the next thing that happened was another interview with only about twenty or something like that. Shirley came home. I said, ‘What happened?’ She said, ‘Don’t worry about it. I’ll get the job.’ I said, ‘Shirley, darling how could you possibly get the job with all these qualifications and you haven’t got any of them? You’ve just matriculated.’ So I was really worried about it so I didn’t make a mess on the carpet. In other words Matriculation did. She said, ‘I’ll be their first choice and I’ll get the job.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s lovely you assume that but I think you’re being a little bit premature. Anyway, to cut a long story short again four, four, four left, four interviews and she was, Shirley was told and the other, presumably the other three were told that by 6 o’clock tonight one of you would have got the job. He said, ‘We’ll be visiting the one that’s got the job before 6 o’clock tonight.’ Although whatever it was I forget the timing, so I said to Shirley, ‘Aren’t you a bit nervous with it being in the last four?’ She said, ‘No. I’ll get the job.’ So, I said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘Oh, I’ve been their first choice all every interview I’ve had.’ I said, ‘But how can this happen?’ This job of course with all these qualifications, suddenly it was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But anyway, at ten to six that night I’m sitting tactfully in our living room err the dining room. No. Spare room.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I could see the front and I saw these two people get out the car. Mr Butler and Mr Charlesworth. One was an ex major and the other was a Swordfish pilot.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I realised then straight away sort of found out what they were that they’d taken a shine to Shirley because I was the sort of a warrant officer aircrew. You know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: This is the sort of men, somebody that they wanted in the background of. I’m not saying that’s true. But I just think that’s what happened.
HB: Yeah. That’s what you thought. Yeah.
CM: One of the things in her favour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I said to Shirley, ‘Shirley, they’re here.’ And she came in and she said, ‘Yes.’ She said go in there and I’ll call you in. I took them into our special room that we had. And I said, Shirley came with me ‘Mr Charlesworth of course, my wife, Shirley.’ ‘We know. We know your wife, Mr McVickers. We’d like to be, if you don’t mind, alone for the, with her for a —’ So I knew straight away that she got the job. She was the first choice just exactly as she’d said.
HB: Yeah. She’d known that all the way through.
CM: It was, yeah she was, first appointment. The only one thing that they said to me, Mr Charlesworth, he said, he said she was an outstanding candidate. That’s was it. She was an outstanding candidate.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, what that means I don’t know but an outstanding candidate gets rid of all the qualifications. Qualification this and qualifications the other. They just took her on her own merits.
HB: Absolutely. Yes.
CM: And Mr Charlesworth err Mr Butler said afterwards, many many years afterwards, she was working there about twenty years she was the obvious choice to do the job. That’s because —
HB: So so while Shirley’s getting her job and you’re —
CM: I was then worked for Anglian Water.
HB: So, so you’d, you’d then finished and you joined —
CM: Anglian Water.
HB: Anglian Water.
CM: I left the civil service. It didn’t make that much difference.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The man that told me that I was a natural, natural at the job which I wasn’t and also one of the employees there told me if you want to get on here don’t kind of send things back for verification. Just pay them anyway. You see, you’re allowed a five percent, a five percent error. He said you’ll never make any [unclear] It was so simple that there’s no errors. No possible errors. Overtake the hard ones by scores. So you never get five percent error.
HB: So what was your actual —
CM: So I held a job, Mr — he did the X, Ys and Zs and I did the As and Bs. It’s a good to contrast. He got very few applications because everything was to be handed to me. And see he did the bits that were difficult for me. He cancelled them all out.
HB: Right. So what exactly was your job.
CM: It was an easy job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: At the top of the tree.
HB: Yeah. What exactly was your job Kit?
CM: Vetting Officer. I decided how much if a person was eligible. For instance if you’d only had half the payments in you only got half the payment. Right. So if the person came in and they’d only got say, fifteen instead of the twenty six minimum application you’d cancel it altogether. Right. But he’d gone straight to the name then, assistant or something. He’d say what had happened. They’d pay him as if he was full, full stamps.
HB: Oh right I see.
CM: He gets full stamps. So I mean no matter how little you had, their people who only had fourteen they’d get for fourteen and they’d get less then the person that had got none, none at all and he get paid the full. So us vetting officers we soon cottoned on to that. This was completely and utterly unfair.
HB: So this is for the water rates.
CM: No. Not water. This was, this was, that was the next job that I came to.
HB: Oh sorry. Sorry. I’ve missed a bit out. So that, so that was in to the civil service.
CM: Yeah. That’s right. The Civil service. And he kept on saying to me, ‘Don’t worry about that.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: After one year you become a, the, become a something officer.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] officer. It was the next step up. Free. Just get it free. You’ve got that anyways, if you’d done a year.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I thought [unclear]. Here I am stuck in a job I dislike intensely, you know, being an aircrew man all my life and suddenly I’m kind of stuck there. So Shirley said, ‘I’ll find you another job.’ This is my wife. By this time she’s working at you know, she’s the department commander.
HB: Yeah. [unclear] Consumer Affairs.
CM: I’ve got all the certificates that she’d got.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Given to her. Not kind of worked for but given by virtue of her job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And she said, ‘I’ve got a job here for you, working for Anglian Water as a district inspector.’
HB: Oh right.
CM: But what I got with the job wasn’t district inspector. It was area inspector. A rank higher up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: There were people who were experienced. Of course I had no experience but I did as Shirley said when I went to the interview. The first one I thought what the hell? Shirley can do it I can do it. So I was completely not bothered about it.
HB: Yeah
CM: I’ve got a good job anyway I’ve got pensions from the Air Force, I’ve got pensions from water board, I’ve got pensions from this and pensions from that.
HB: Right.
CM: So I did.
HB: It’s alright I’m just double checking the battery.
CM: Anyway, I’m terribly sorry I’ve taken over.
HB: No. No. No.
CM: But then you’re getting something about my background.
HB: No. No. No.
CM: I ‘m lucky. I’m lucky I have been, how lucky I could be.
HB: I’m interested in the length of service you’ve given.
CM: Yeah. I did thirty one operations in the hot war and there were five six, six, seven in the Cold War.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did in the, in the, in the whatsaname for.
HB: Malaysia.
CM: Over the water to fly in the helicopters to look for where an aircraft had been. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: I had to map it out and tell them where it was and they’d come out and sort it out.
HB: The Air Sea Rescue. Yeah.
CM: So I had a particular job there and the promise to being an area officer and then another rank higher but I had to have the qualifications. They got to invent the qualifications for me. They said just get the A level in the, we’ll do the, all the chemical experiments for you. I said I’m in the base of a bloody load of corruption here. There was experienced both the civil service, they both told me first thing. They’d be a bit what’s the name. Something officer, there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Field officer.
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: But I wasn’t long enough, part time.
HB: So you’ve, you’ve gone all the way through the war. You’ve had your RAF career over twenty years.
CM: Twenty six years.
HB: Twenty six years. And you, you’ve gone back into civilian life. What do you think, what do you think the war, that your wartime service with Bomber Command what do you think that gave you for your later life in the RAF and —
CM: Confidence.
HB: Right.
CM: I was a, as far as I was concerned I was not only a wireless op air gunner who did his job but also I knew that I wasn’t, I wasn’t really scared. I told you I was the biggest coward and everything. I wasn’t.
HB: Right.
CM: I was apprehensive. I used to look at the, the aircraft coming in, the place where the aircraft was parked and find that there were so many bombs, if you looked at the front of the aircraft and you could see nothing else but steel all the way around from middle right at the end. Right through this. A huge bomb bay about easily from that to here in a Lancaster.
HB: Yeah. A good eighteen feet. Twenty feet.
CM: Nothing at all. And you’d look at the front and you’d find that, yes you could see it, everyone said it but you wouldn’t believe it. The wings were fitted upwards.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I thought my God it’s so bloody heavy there that the damned wings are lifting up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course everyone, we were all aware of that, you know. And how the hell could this possibly get airborne? But as soon as the aircraft had gone on off the runway and got the a airflow over it the wings then start to lift, because if they [unclear] to lift and of course they reassert themselves.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course the Lancaster designed from the bomb bay. It was designed as a —
HB: Yeah. So so you attribute your confidence to it.
CM: And also I was a good wireless op. Morse, because I always, I never got any IMIs. IMI means de de da da dit dit — please, ‘please send that again.’ De de da da dit dit.
HB: Right. Yeah. Right. So, of, of your crews.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Because you obviously had you know a number of, you know slight changes during Bomber Command duties.
CM: Well, they didn’t know anything about ops. They didn’t tell them anything in Morse.
HB: No. No.
CM: But as something else to think about doing lectures. When I was doing my t cal, it was teaching I used to think to myself what I should really do is something that’s really interesting. And one of the interesting things about being a wireless operator was emergencies.
HB: Right.
CM: Now, you know that everyone sends SOSs when they were da da da da, so. But it used to be SOS de de dit da da da dit dit dit da da da dit dit dit. So this brilliant bastard, who it was said, ‘This is not distinguishable.’ It’s dash O S sent, sent separately. Why don’t we put it all together and make it one symbol? So what they did SOS and with SOS, SOOS and they put a bar across the whole lot which meant it ran, the whole thing bit of it, instead of it being it dit dit dit da da dit dit dit it became de de de da da dit dit dit dit dit dit da da dit dit dit Which everyone knows as SOS.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So therefore it was adopted.
HB: Oh right.
CM: So we knew we had a system whereby if you had an emergency we used this system to do this. There’s a word called PATASACANDI. PATASACANDI. And if you think about that PAT is Position and Time. PAT CAS Course and Speed. A PATCAS Altitude. And then name. Name of aircraft. Intention of pilot. Right. All of this went out of your mind even and put all the things in and send it as PATACASANDI. In other words —
HB: Right.
CM: Height would be QAH fifteen, fifteen thousand. PAT, PAT in time of course you’d get your watch, plus course and speed. You ran the different course off from the, the whatsaname [unclear] and yaw thing, and speed. I didn’t get the speed but the navigator put down the speed. QTJ my speed is, my air speed is, such and such and such, my ground speed is depending which you were going to use. Then —
HB: Right.
CM: The course. And then there was the altitude. And the other one was the nature. The nature of, nature of, nature of the emergency.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Engine just, engine on fire. Bomb in, bomb in, bomb in bomb bay. Whatever the emergency was. They put that. Then intention of pilot. A PATCASANDI, Intention of Pilot. I at the end — intention of pilot. PATCASANDI. Everyone in the aircraft and the engineer knew that. How to send an emergency message was always in your head.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was easy. You also knew the Q signals which we’d stick to them. The QAS for height. QTI for skip a course, your QEH was [unclear] of the whole thing so you could do it in your head. All the navigator had to say was, Kit.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
CM: I was confident that if there was an emergency I could send that.
HB: Did you, did you, when you look back we obviously lost an awful lot of —
CM: Engine Yeah.
HB: Aircrew and, you know people, you know, people didn’t come back. What was your, what was your general feeling? You know. You fly out on an op. You come back and a couple of your planes are missing. What was, what was your feeling about that, Kit?
CM: What we’d do then if you knew an aircraft had been shot down. We’d got sometimes to the 500cc channel, the name of channel 500 KCs which was 500 used by everybody. Maritimes, aircraft all go to the 500cc and you could hear anyone in distress sending his distress position.
HB: Right.
CM: That was the wonderful thing about being a wireless op you could be individual, an aircraft you’d see shot down and we’d know you didn’t have any chance of sending anything.
HB: No.
CM: But others which were badly damaged the wireless operator there frantically trying to get a message through.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because his message and don’t forget you obviously finished off the message, the SOS by pressing his key for twenty seconds which was a long time [buzz] All the time in the world for the ground staff and other people anywhere taking bearings on you so therefore they get a good picture of just exactly where you were in the North Sea.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I feel I’m taking over too much now of this. Way over things that don’t even matter.
HB: Oh no. No. No. These —
CM: Well, it gives a good background to a wireless operator’s job.
HB: Well, that’s, that’s why you’re being interviewed Kit.
CM: Is that right?
HB: Because your wireless operator experience, I mean we’re talking lots of years here has developed. But —
CM: That’s right.
HB: In Bomber, in Bomber Command.
CM: They were going to be shot down.
HB: Yeah. You, you must have experienced that, you know. With friends.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And other crews that you knew.
CM: Oh yeah.
HB: Who didn’t come back.
CM: Yeah. I won’t talk about that.
HB: No.
CM: Distressing experience I just cut it out of my mind.
HB: No. That’s, yeah that’s understandable. I mean it’s, it’s a difficult area because none of us now can even imagine how you would feel and what you would experience.
CM: That’s right but I do wish before you go and I know you’ll be thinking to yourself how can I get away with this [noise] I’ve broken your communicator.
HB: Worry not. I’ve stood it back up.
CM: I wrote, I wrote a letter once, on an old notepad, so I’ll just [pages turning] Look at this. Do you hear what Sherlock would say? You’ve got all these to read when you’ve got time. Not now.
HB: Well, we will. We will on another occasion, I think.
CM: That’s the chap that was flying that Typhoon.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, I won’t, I won’t keep this, but I’ll tell you what it is. It’s a description of a flight I made. Just a flight rather than the flight. The definite article rather than the indefinite article. Ah is indefinite article. The is action.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So this particular flight was in my mind and I wrote it down exactly how it was. But also I’ve mentioned something which I’ve never seen mentioned anywhere before. Are you listening carefully for it Harry? It was well known in Bomber Command that an awful lot of atrocities took place. Have you heard about this?
HB: About the —?
CM: Atrocities towards aircrew.
HB: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
CM: Some of these people who are — they went through a very very harrowing experience. Some of them went mental. Deranged in fact. And they gathered themselves during a raid and tried to collect any bombers. A lot of people, had they baled out over the target and they’d come down in the streets and they, generally speaking there were some people who would [unclear] had very bad time indeed. They were hanged from lampposts. They were kicked to death by the civilians. They were shot by platoon commanders who wouldn’t take them in. They just cut them down with that, you never hear anything about that.
HB: No.
CM: It’s up to Bomber Command did [unclear] that’s why to a lot of people like me know about this. If people knew about the really bad times that they faced if they were ever taken prisoner. If the Luftwaffe were around the area and the Luftwaffe were patrolling they were pretty safe, but if there were no, no Luftwaffe around the SS they couldn’t have cared less. They’d shoot you out of hand.
HB: Yeah.
CM: An awful lot. There’s never been any book published. Any publication about it. People know, know this went on. But if you try to find anything about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The only way you find out about is by looking up at this report that I put in.
HB: Right.
CM: Which I can show you.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I can’t now because I can’t remember where it is.
HB: Well, yeah.
CM: So I thought this might be the sort of thing that you’d be looking for.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On top of. In addition to. As well as —
HB: Yes. Yes.
CM: Rather than —
HB: I mean, it’s been fascinating listening to you Kit talking about that, you know. Not just, not just the wartime but the whole of, the whole of your RAFs experience. And you know how, I mean you said that you described this period of time when NCOs were being reduced in rank and whatnot.
CM: Well —
HB: But, but how —
CM: They don’t, they, let’s put it this way they didn’t say it was a reduction of rank
HB: No. No. No. No.
CM: They were exactly the same.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But we as aircrew had been warrant officers. We’d been so used to all this you know.
HB: Yeah. Exactly.
CM: But It was just taken over, three stripes, three stars and a crown, the same as a flight sergeant.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And they wouldn’t have it —
HB: Yeah.
CM: The aircrew who served they wouldn’t have it. That’s what buggered that up.
HB: What do you, do you think? Do you, when you look back now for that time during the World War? Do you think the public really understood what you were trying to do?
CM: I didn’t think. No. I don’t think they even thought about the things I’ve been telling you about now. The murders. That’s what they were. They were murders. And the best way that they used to kill and this comes up time and time again. Butchers. Butchers actually decapitate theirs. They set them in a line and one after the butcher would take their heads off. So called ISIS.
HB: But the public. The public back home here.
CM: They never found anything about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Never let anything be published.
HB: But in general terms though your, your service in Bomber Command.
CM: I tried to be a bomber.
HB: There were lots and lots of you.
CM: Yeah.
HB: As you came to the end of the war the public in this country had a view about the Spitfire boys and, you know the Navy and, and what not. Did you, did you — what did you think the public thought Bomber Command had achieved in the war?
CM: Well, I think that they pretty thought, and don’t forget and I came from a steel town and I used to and meet with a brevet and my stripes, you know. I was some sort of particular to the girls, I was a hero of Bomber Command. Because a lot of that on the radio all you got was, nothing happening in the war. The war years. The war world. But Bomber Command — last night’s operations. This. There. Bombers bombed shipping.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] what at the end was always the same. Of all, out of all these operations thirty five, forty four, sixty five, ninety seven in one case —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Of our aircraft are missing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, you don’t have to be an intelligent member of the community to say ninety seven. Ninety seven, down the road. That’s from here to —
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there was a town up there. [unclear]
HB: But, so, so in general times you felt that the public were with you.
CM: Oh yes, really. There were also the liberals and the communists and the whatsanames. They wouldn’t be of course.
HB: No.
CM: But we were, as far as we were concerned we were being instructed. We willingly went into Bomber Command because in Bomber Command you bombed civilians. You couldn’t go to war like that.
HB: Yeah. And what, what was your view? Did, or did you even have a view of the government’s position at the end of the war towards Bomber Command?
CM: As regards the treatment of Bomber Command. It was absolutely atrocious. I’ve just explained to you about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Within, within on year of the war ending we were no longer flight sergeant or warrant officers. We were signaller 2s and signaller 1s and engineer 1s and engineer 2s, and pilots even. Pilot 1 and pilot 2s and pilot 3s and pilot 4s.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because if you had one star you’re a pilot 4. For two stars you’re a pilot 3.
HB: Yeah.
CM: If you had one star you’re a pilot. No. You’re a pilot, a signaller 2 or pilot 2 with one star. No. Three stars was sergeant. Two stars — three stars and a crown was a flight sergeant. Three stars by itself was sergeant. Two stars was corporal. And one star was lance corporal.
HB: Right.
CM: That’s how, that’s how they looked at it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But the lance corporal couldn’t go.
HB: But the thing.
CM: Lance corporal couldn’t go in the sergeants mess.
HB: No.
CM: So they had to have separate messes and everything else.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it was a complete and utter — it didn’t happen to the officers like that.
HB: No.
CM: They weren’t even mentioned. But we were treated badly.
HB: Politically, what, what was, what do you think was coming across politically from —
CM: Oh I think that at that time.
HB: Churchill and people like that.
CM: Don’t forget Bomber Command was the only way we could hit the, hit the Germans at all.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Where could we hit? Where could we hit the Germans except in their homelands.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: We destroyed their cities one by one.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Until only one was left.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Dresden. And in the last few days of the war we destroyed that as well.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we did an incalculable addition to the winning of the war because they, whatsanames the people would be dehoused. Had no where to live. The slave labourers were living in terrible conditions in mountains. The whole system was run by slave labour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that was because of Bomber Command. They literally — the population were bombed out of their homes.
HB: Yeah. Well, Kit I think, I think we’ve come to a natural conclusion.
CM: That’s right. I feel as if I’ve, I feel as if I’ve monopolised the conversation.
HB: It’s not a conversation. It’s your story, Kit and it’s very very important.
CM: So you learned about the way that the way that Bomber Command were treated at the end of the war.
HB: Absolutely.
CM: You’ve seen my logbook. You know I’m a genuine person. You know that I’ve done well for myself.
HB: Yes. You certainly have. Its, it’s ten to three.
CM: Dear God have I been speaking for two or three hours?
HB: We, we started —
CM: You must have —
HB: We started before 1 o’clock.
CM: You must have put it to at least a half an hour of that Harry.
HB: I’m going to terminate the interview now. Thank you very much Kit. I really do appreciate that.
CM: But you will come back.
HB: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Christopher George McVickers
Creator
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Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcVickersCG171006, PMcVickersCG1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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02:08:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Christopher ‘Kit’ McVickers was working at the steelworks before he volunteered for aircrew. He trained as a wireless operator and was posted to 218 Squadron based at Woolfox Lodge. His pilot refused to fly and was replaced with a new pilot. The crew found the incident upsetting because they loved their pilot and worried for him. Kit went on to complete his tour and then after a short time out of the RAF he re-joined. He went on to serve overseas including the Indonesian Confrontation. He flew in various aeroplanes including Lincolns, Shackletons and Lockheed Neptunes. He ended his career as a missile controller at RAF Neatishead and Patrigton.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Gibraltar
Singapore
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1952
1956
1963
101 Squadron
12 Squadron
218 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
B-29
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crash
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Binbrook
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Hemswell
RAF Woolfox Lodge
RAF Yatesbury
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1033/11405/AMillinJR160126.1.mp3
ce6e5d1cf8f839a386755e45bf8ab79f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Millin, Jack Robertson
J R Millin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Robertson Millin (b. 1924, 2208997 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 12 Squadron South African Air Force.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Millin, JR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: I was born in 1924. The son of a World War One veteran who had been wounded on the Somme having joined up at eighteen to a local Manchester regiment. Transferred to the Royal Engineers because he was in the building trade and came home from the Somme via hospital in hospital blue. Instead of being shipped out to France he was part of the Balkan Expeditionary Force in Salonica in Greece. And he served there ‘til the end of the war because of course the Royal Engineers are the construction department of the army mostly. The officers were civil engineers or architects. So he was a corporal and he came out in 1919. And in 1920 he started his own business in painting and decorating. So I was born in 1924 and became his third apprentice. And I wasn’t able to go to a grammar school by passing a scholarship and he didn’t want to pay for my grammar school education so I left school at fourteen. So that was it. Evening classes. I was sent to evening classes when I was thirteen and continued doing painting and decorating evening classes until I went in the air force. Eventually, after the air force I became qualified with City and Guilds to became a part time teacher for sixteen years in painting and decorating. So that was my sort of background of how it all happened. And of course as a young boy I used to remember the KLM, or whatever it was called, the Dutch airlines aircraft coming daily into Manchester. And also an R-34 airship flying over and thinking that this must be great. I wasn’t into transport but my grandfather was a railway transport person. He was a carrier with a horse and so his job was, was as a transport person. He wasn’t involved in air or, and he worked on the railway. So that was where it happened. So when, I was fifteen when the war started. Remembering Neville Chamberlain’s broadcast that now we are at war with Germany we didn’t know what was going to happen. So all the things, we had a very quiet start with the phoney war err the phoney war until they started to drop bombs in our area. Eventually I volunteered when I was sixteen to become an ARP which was Civil Defence cyclist messenger. And I used to do duty every week on the basis of the, if the telephones went out of action we were able to take messages. So that was one of the things I did. But when I was sixteen the Air Training Corps started after the Air Defence Corps was its founder. So this was very attractive to me and joined with my future brother in law. And we attended and we were the founder members of the Air Training Corps in Ashton under Lyme. So I went through that and all the various training. Got promoted. Corporal. Sergeant. Flight sergeant. And then I volunteered for air crew as soon as I was coming up to eighteen. Of course it wasn’t the thing. You weren’t supposed to push yourself and volunteer too early. It was just wait your turn. So eventually I was called up after some delay which they called deferred service, via RAF Padgate where there was a selection of medical for aircrew. Passed fit all aircrew but because of my lack of education I didn’t qualify for the pilot navigator bomb aimer. They agreed I could be a wireless operator air gunner under training. Which I did. So there was a delay. Eventually I was called up and went to London to the Aircrew Receiving Centre. Lord’s Cricket Ground. We would go on then to Bridgnorth ITW. From there I went on to Yatesbury. Number 2 Radio School near Calne in Wiltshire. From there after long delays because of course the bad weather of the winter didn’t allow people to train or be killed so we couldn’t move forward. And eventually it was decided that in addition to signallers which was our qualification when I qualified at RAF Yatesbury as a sergeant signaller with an S brevet. There was something that was still needed as wireless operators/air gunners for Coastal Command where they had ASV training. And also for Bomber Command because sorry medium bombers because medium bombers had to be dual role people. They couldn’t be just signallers and specialists. So I was sent to a full Air Gunnery School at Evanton in Scotland. Number 8 Air Gunnery School. And I did the full training there and I remember the dates particularly because on VE Day I was just coming to the end of my training. So after we’d got another brevet, an air gunner’s brevet we were sent home on embarkation leave. No. To West Kirby on the Wirral where they sorted people out or kitted them out for overseas service [coughs] Excuse me. Then we had embarkation leave and went by Liverpool by ship. Monarch of Bermuda to Gourock in Scotland and then joined a convoy to have a week on a long sweep in the Atlantic to Gibraltar and then another week in the Atlantic err in the Mediterranean hugging the North African coast to Port Said. From there we were shipped by rail with sliding doors and spent a day in straw. And all us getting off at eating points via Ismailia up to Jerusalem. I do remember Jerusalem was the first place I had seen since 1939 with street lights on and a lovely temperature. The balmy air as we arrived there. And I spent six weeks in Jerusalem. Part of them under curfew because the Jewish Stern Gang, Irgun Zvai Leumi I think they were called had killed a police commissioner. They’d assassinated him. So we were kept inside after dark. We were confined to the place we were staying. It was an ex-German hospital. From there because of my name and this was one of the, the lucks of the draw. My name was Millin and all my courses were from A to L and M to Z. So I was Millin and the first of the group who went to Jerusalem. So when I had to go to, from Jerusalem after six weeks to Shander on the Great Bitter Lake I was given the pass to take this group of people — Millin, Mullin, Pearson, Stewart, these were all my contemporaries at that time to this Shandur on the Great Bitter Lake which was a desert air force bomber base with Nissen huts sunk in the sand. So we stayed there and we were, the day we arrived after being photographed we were told to go and find a South African aircrew because they were looking for a wireless operator air gunner. So I joined this crew of five South Africans to fly an aircraft I’d never heard of. The B-26 Martin Marauder known as The Widow Maker. The Martin Murderer. The Flying Prostitute — no visible means of support. Because it was a very advanced aircraft. Very fast. Very streamlined. Straight off the production line. Never had a prototype so it had lot of accidents and things. But of course it’s teething in the air force was number, RAF Squadron, Number 14 Squadron which operated from the Middle East. From the El Alemein area. And used to do torpedoes and bombing of transport ships. German ships coming to the North Africa. They stayed there until the Italian campaign. They were, I think based in Sicily at one time. And they came back to the UK. That’s number 14 Squadron. But the South African Air Force were equipped with lease lend aircraft. They first of all converted their Junkers 86 airliners which German aircraft were designed to convert to warplanes into bombers and they went in to East Africa and operated as [coughs] Sorry about this. They eventually were, equipped with the Martin Maryland and then they had the Martin Baltimore. And they and they took these to the Middle East from East Africa. And then they had a period, one period with Bostons. But the South African Air Force eventually had four squadrons of B26 Marauders in the Desert Air Force — 12, 21, 25 and 30 all came together as 3 Wing SAAF. But in addition to that they had another squadron, Number 25 which had been on Coastal Command around South Africa on the [pause] it’ll come back to me — the name of the, the name of the aircraft. But it was originally a Lockheed Hudson that was converted. And they, they came to the Middle East but converted then to Marauders and they went to fly with Balkan Air Force. The Balkan Air Force was set up to support Yugoslavia primarily in its attacks but it also had in its air force this squadron, this Balkan Air Force, Italians who were ex-prisoners of war and people who were in the south of Italy when we invaded and were captured but volunteered for aircrew. So, they flew in Baltimores and they had various other aircraft as well to make this air force that went into Yugoslavia and part of Greece. The idea was the Italians wouldn’t have to fly against their compatriots in the north. They were flying into Greece err into Yugoslavia. So, we were based then from various places that moved up. The squadrons only joined together when they were at Pescara. That was the first base when 3 Wing operated. And then they eventually moved up to Jesi where I joined them. And after the war they moved up to Udine which was in North Italy. After the surrender of the German forces in Italy. So this was the B26 Operations. They are all historically recorded. I have got all the books and all the history of their record both in America and in, in the British use of it which was quite a, quite an aircraft in itself. Very advanced. The details were in this Winged Chariots and all the other things I’ve done for the Imperial War Museum North to talk about its aircraft. So when I arrived in the late February my first operation I think was early March. We were flying in boxes of six or boxes of four on daylight targets. I’d never flown at night except one operation at night in that OTU where we flew out to the Mediterranean and around by Cyprus and back again because we used to do — our bombing range was the Sinai desert where Sharm El Sheikh, whatever it is called, all these resorts are. We used to do all these bombing and courses there. And we flew up to the Mediterranean at that end. So that’s where we were up to there when we did our training. And I did twenty operational flights. Some to the bomb line where we were supporting the British 8th Army as they moved forward. And we used to fly and bomb ahead of T markers on the floor with anti-personnel bombs against the major part of the, when we were there the line was pretty stable where the Po River crosses was attacking that north of Italy to get into there and drive the Germans out of Italy. And we supported one day an attack by commandos. The last commando landing in Europe at Lake Comacchio, Porto Garibaldi where they used these landing craft that went in off the sea behind the Germans. And we attacked supporting that. By coincidence I met a commando some months ago who’s recently died who took part in that. I met him on the ground at a Manchester Historical Society. They got us together to talk about our — we above it and him getting wet below. So that was quite something. This Porto Garibaldi. Porto Garibaldi is named after Garibaldi and the Risorgimento where they, they came back to Italy to capture Italy again in the 1800s where Italy became reunited. And he was part of it. The Red Shirts I think they called them but that’s, you can look them up in history anyway. But that was fascinating in itself. It’s a lake, Comacchio and the Porto Garibaldi were a lot of marshes and they were attacked by commandos. They laid low. There were two VCs there during that attack. And I, first of all got the link with it at Eastleigh. The Royal Marines Museum when I went there since the war to visit and found out that one of these landings I’d done there was a VC awarded for that attack we were on. And it’s the same thing again I found that there was a second one eventually there. It was a quite a, quite a part of the war that not many people know about. This landing there. So I felt that I was doing something worthwhile. I had done something worthwhile. The other things was marshalling yards. We attacked a couple of marshalling yards in North Austria err in South Austria because we were flying over the Alps to attack these and of course we were bombing dumb bombs and we had to find the target and drop them on the leader. The bomb aimer was the leader and he dropped and we all dropped at the same time. Mostly between twelve and thirteen thousand feet. But when we went over the Alps nobody ever told, only ever told us to use oxygen then. We never used oxygen over ten thousand feet because most of the things were at ten and eleven thousand feet when we were attacking the North of Italy because these were at choke points in roads or railways we were always attacking. But one of the problems our squadron had and it lost two lots of aircraft with it was that there was a complication with the American bombs and leaving — British bombs leaving American aircraft. And those fuses were — they clashed with each other and they exploded before they left the aircraft too far and blew up other aircraft. Something I’ve only recently found out in my history. They had this. It brought other aircraft down with it. But also they lost other aircraft over one target called Udine where we were flying over predicted flak. Exploding one aircraft and took others down with it because they were in formation close together. And of course the whole thing exploded. So that was one of the things. Of the, I think five hundred odd aircraft we had a fifty percent, fifty seven percent losses by accident in the RAF’s use of B26. These figures I’m only remembering but of course I don’t have them all at my fingertips. But there were more losses with accidents than enemy action. So if you survived a B26 alone, without operations there was a high risk situation. Btu there we are. But having done all that and coming out of the air force early because of the B, of the Class B Release to come back to the building trade. Again, coincidence. I arrived back and had to register at the Employment Exchange for work of national importance to help build, re-build the country as a painter and decorator. I suppose they still wanted things finishing. I’d already escaped. Oh I haven’t told you about when I finished flying because the people in the South African Air Force who were Royal Air Force members were no longer needed. So we got, we were interviewed and offered various jobs. RAF regiment, clerks, motor transport drivers as well. As I couldn’t drive I decided I’d be a motor transport driver. So eventually I was allocated to 9 Supply and Transport Column in Naples. Their job, because during the desert you know there are no railway lines in the desert so all the bombs and all the support had to come up by road transport. There were special units set up by the Royal Air Force to transport these backwards and forwards in the deserts as the advance and retreats came. And they were 9 Supply and Transport Column and I was one of those. So they, they taught me to drive in a fifteen hundred weight truck, a three ton Dodge and a ten tonne mac diesel. So I flew, I drove these around Naples and across to Bari and Rome and different parts. So I became a motor transport driver. Whilst I was there they were advertising. The Royal Engineers. They wanted to build some accommodation and they wanted building trade members. So I was interviewed to become one of their team. And it so happened that I was due for three weeks leave. My three weeks leave was coming and then I got a call to say I was called to this support team so I ignored it and went home on leave. And then when I got back from leave they said I was going to face the consequences. They said, ‘Don’t unpack. Your release has come through. You’re going home on Class B Release.’ So I’d been home on three weeks leave via rail right from Naples. Came back again. All the way to Naples again. And then I went all the way back again to be released at RAF Hednesford with my demob suit and everything. That was early. So that, that finished my just three years in the Royal Air Force. Of course my contemporaries stayed in eighteen months to, twelve to eighteen months longer because of that and they did all sorts of things like were in charge of movements on the docks. In charge of leave centres or transport places. They were all given administrative jobs as senior NCOs but my job as a senior NCO when I was an assistant driver was to roll my sleeves up so that they couldn’t see my stripes. And I used to go in the airmen’s mess with the driver. So that was the way. But on some units they wanted us to take our stripes off you know. They didn’t want us to be sergeants although we went in the sergeant’s mess. There was a lot of, especially the regulars took a dim view of aircrew being given rapid promotion. And also when they, they started to sort out the regulars what they were doing after they didn’t want to know us. And of course that’s a bit like Churchill didn’t want to know us and neither did the Royal Air Force. There were too many of us. A glut of aircrew. And of course there was a glut of aircrew during the war because my brother in law was given labouring jobs on these things, handling bombs and things in between whilst they were waiting to be moved. And they were given a lot of labouring jobs. In fact when I went to Air Gunnery School I’d also been ill with a boil and I’d been in hospital so I missed my draft. But they sent me off on, and this was an interesting trip because I’d got my arm in a sling, sergeant’s stripes on moving on my own from RAF [pause] where was I moving from? [pause] Put it right, in the portion where it is. With an arm in a sling going through London on the rail, went to the RTO and I’d got a berth on the train. Everybody, wherever I went, because I’d got my arm in a sling and I’d sergeant’s stripes and aircrew brevet was given VIP treatment where ever I went thinking I’d been wounded [laughs] So that was quite a travel to travel with a sleeper up to Inverness. A couple of senior NCOs helped me in to my bunk each night with it. And when I got there the course had gone ahead so I had to wait two weeks whilst then so they give me a job amending all the code books. The log books and everything. And learning how to swing an aircraft around with its compass and everything like. I was a labourer. So these were various aspect things. The Royal Air Force had a glut of aircrew and they had, we had to put up with it. We were bored stiff a lot of times but I relaxed and I could, I could enjoy my life. In fact I was very comfortable in the air force because I conformed. I was smart. I was sharp. And I could have got on well. But my father persuaded me that I ought to be a partner with him in the firm. Which I did and on balance it was alright. I did sixty years part time teaching as painting and decorating until I found that I found more time keeping these day release people in evening courses after they wanted to get home. They were not interested in some respects. So when I could earn enough to do the things I wanted I did. I gave up that income. But that was the Royal Air Force summarised from 1943 ‘til 1946.
HD: Lovely Jack. Thank you very much.
JM: Put these in there. I’ve lost the thing —
[recording paused]
HD: This is a continuation of Mr Millin.
JM: Yes. One thing. On arrival at Shandur on the Great Bitter Lake I and nine other wireless operator air gunners were taken to a hangar and told of our South African Air Force crews who needed one extra crew member. The good news was that my captain was a twenty nine year old married man with a family. He’d been an instructor in South Africa. And that the observer was an ex-infantry soldier who had survived Tobruk before volunteering for aircrew. With such maturity and experience we had great assets in the survival stakes. It appears that some crew members were a bit hair raising. I remember well whilst at OTU having to squeeze through the bomb bay between the two bomb racks when approaching the target we were training to attack. This meant carrying my chest parachute whilst manoeuvring along a nine inch wide catwalk holding on to two rope hand rails. When I was right in the middle at twelve thousand feet the bombs doors were suddenly opened. A special treat for me planned by the rest of the crew. They laughed their heads off. And I recall at 5.30 in the morning calls for 6am PT sessions arranging for the time because of the high daytime temperatures in Egypt. After a while we conspired to give it a miss. At 6.15 all of us who were still abed had our names taken. On Sunday, our day off we were lectured on keeping fit and detailed to walk the two mile runway picking up empty cartridge cases and ammunition belt links which had dropped out of landing aircraft. Eventually we thought the job was completed. The South African CO inspected the runway in his jeep and sent us back again. Not, not, nor was that all. Had to walk right across a desert airfield to lunch were presented with overalls, forty five gallon drums of paraffin and long brushes and told to wash and clean our marauders. In the heat of the blazing afternoon sun no one missed PT again. That was what I’d put in there, you see.
HD: Right.
JM: And that’s it.
HD: Ok.
JM: Yeah.
HD: Apologies. I meant to put a header on the last recording and sorry it seems to have slipped my mind. The last recording is from Mr Jack Millin who was an NCO serving as a wireless operator air gunner with 12 Squadron South African Air Force in Italy. The interview was conducted at Mr Millin’s house in Stalybridge near Manchester. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Robertson Millin
Creator
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Hugh Donnelly
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMillinJR160126
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:25:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
South African Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Millin was working for his father as a painter and decorator before he volunteered for the RAF. He was a Civil Defence bicycle messenger and joined the ATC. When he joined the RAF he trained as a wireless operator/air gunner and was posted to 12 Squadron, South African Air Force flying Marauders, Bostons and Marylands. He left the air force under Class B release because of his building trade experience.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Italy
Middle East
South Africa
Middle East--Jerusalem
Egypt--Sharm El-Sheikh
Italy--Porto Garibaldi
North Africa
Egypt--Suez Canal
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
B-26
bombing
Boston
crash
RAF Evanton
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1056/11435/AOwenA150603.2.mp3
c12ac4f6e9a9a8007ac138b17d654e1f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Owen, Taff
Aneurin Owen
A Owen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Aneurin 'Taff' Owen (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Owen, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right, so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Kavanagh, myself. The interviewee is Mr Owen. The interview is taking place at his home on the 3rd of June 2015. So, if you’d like to just describe your early life.
AO: Yes, well, my very early life started, of course, in Wales, as you might imagine with a name like Aneurin Owen.
DK: I was going to say. [slight laugh]
AO: And, um, it was near Dolgellau near a little village called Penmaenpool, that was our nearest point, near the farm. I was a farmer’s son and we farmed there in them days. And I can recall going to, walking about three miles to school, each way that was in those days with — in all weathers, but the thing was then, most children did in that part of the world in them days. Also, um, I was very lucky, I always thought, in them days. I had a wonderful teacher, er, a primary school teacher. We used to get to school wet through sometimes and she used to slip all our clothes off and get them dried for us with one of these old fashioned stoves, you know, the old tortoise stoves we called them and, er, she was brilliant with our — with us, certainly with me, and some of the other farm children. But I suppose looking back as well in that time — I left there about ten years of age or nine years of age, nine and a half — and, um, just before a year or two before I left, I came across my very first sight of an aeroplane which was flown in the very early days. I don’t know whose it was but he used to travel from Dolgellau to Barmouth on the Mawddach estuary to — all along the river there, and he used to look down from the cockpit, an aircraft flying with, along there, with an open cockpit. I assume it was a Percival Gull type of aircraft, something like that but I don’t know, of course, now what it was. I don’t know, even know, who it belonged to. But that, er, was my very first experience of seeing an aeroplane close too, I suppose. The very first one. Then we left there after Depression, the Great Depression, 1929 and ‘30, early 30s. I came to this farm in about 1934, nine years of age, took a farm in Husbands Bosworth and, er, we started dairy farming from there, from then onwards, because obviously dairy farming was an important event after the Milk Marketing Board just came into being in those days and gave us a monthly income. But, er, one of the jobs I had to do before going to school, of course, here, going to, to the school at Lutterworth, was to milk two cows in the morning and two when I got home from school, and most of the time it was my own [slight laugh] but, er, it wasn’t a very pleasant job, actually, to do either before going to school, I found, because it was a dirty job. The cows were dirty and you had a job to get yourself cleaned up again in time for catching the school bus you got in those days. But, er, it was a job I didn’t care much for, like, because me and my father didn’t get on terribly well, er, in those days. Well, er, one, if you didn’t do your job properly then you got a thick ear for it [slight laugh], for not been doing what you were told. But going back to the flying, the first aircraft I saw, of all things, I saw in about 1936 here, flying up above the valley was an autogyro. That was the first time I ever saw one and I think he was on his trials run. I think it about 1936, no later than 1937 anyway, and he used to come along the valley from Market Harborough to Rugby and then follow the line but the autogyro — I can’t remember now who designed it. It was wing commander somebody, wasn’t it? I can’t think who it was exactly but going from — and then, that period as well, what really fascinated me was being able to see Amy Johnson. She used to come with the, with the, their flying circus team to do, well, flying demonstrations and flying trips for people, I think, which were about ten shillings a time, something like that but it doesn’t sound much money today but it was lots of money in those days. And I used to go an watch them at an airfield just near Husbands Bosworth and, er, I’m trying to think, Alan —.
DK: Cobham.
AO: Cobham. It was his flying circus. It became an annual event, and of course one of the people who came was Amy Johnson with him.
DK: Oh right.
AO: And, er, I got to see them flying their aircraft. I assume he used to do these events for financial reasons, to help them go on their world tours, they used to do probably as well. To get enough money for that. But it fascinated me to watch these aircraft taking off and I thought that’s the life for me, sort of thing, at the end of the day but that was only around about 1936. Yeah, 1936 the Tomahawk, would have been and then onwards, as I say, I didn’t get on terribly well with my father. My father was a strict parent I suppose, er, in lots of ways and, um, so I decided, I thought well I won’t stick it with farming, I’m going to do something else in life. And of course the Air Force, at that time, wasn’t in my mind as such but I wanted to do something different to farming so I thought I’d go — I was friendly with a guy named George Briggs from Bradford, who were wool merchants, and I decided to go there as an apprentice in the wool trade but, of course, by 1938, ’39 time, you could see the war clouds are looming and the expansion of the military forces as well, so things looked a bit different altogether at that time, and anyway, by 1940, my father died all of a sudden in — he had a heart attack and he was only thirty-seven years of age. But I’d still made my mind up, I wasn’t going to stick to farming but I think that was probably a mistake in some ways, as far as my mother was concerned, but, er, I made my mind up and that was it, and once I was old enough, I volunteered for the Air Force, you know. That’s what — and then by the time I was about seventeen and a half [cough], excuse me, er, I volunteered for — well, I was in a reserved occupation, of course, being in the farming side, so I could only go into air crew or submarines. But, er, submarines I didn’t fancy, didn’t — I wasn’t any good at swimming anyway [slight laugh].
DK: Yes. I can understand. [slight laugh]
AO: But at the back of my mind, I just wanted to go — flying was in my mind, you know, as far as that goes, so off I went to — I was supposed to volunteer. It was on a Sunday and I went to Leicester, I think it was to start with, and found the recruiting office was closed but I’d cycled to Leicester from here but there was a notice there saying the Hinckley office would be open, so I cycled to Hinckley and volunteered from there and, in the meantime, I also joined the Air Cadets in Lutterworth, yeah, Lutterworth branch that was, and we were able to go from there to, um, to an ITW to fly in a Tiger Moth on one or two occasions. That was at Desford, that was, which is a ITW, Initial Training Wing for — at that time and, within a short period of time anyway, I got my call-up papers come through and I had to go to Cardington for an interview there and do medical tests and so forth, to see if I was suitable for air crew and I passed that alright but unfortunately they found out I was under age. I was only, I was about seventeen and three quarters.
DK: Did you have to be eighteen then?
AO: Yes. I had to be 18, yep, so I came — they sent me back home from there until I was eighteen in November. And, anyway, I had Christmas at home that year, 1942 that was, and they called me up in, um, [inaudible] my papers came before Christmas, to report to Air Crew Receiving Centre in London, at St Johns Wood, of course, Regents Park, so that’s where I went to have further tests, be kitted out there, and also to have more exams and medicals there and, unfortunately, they found out that I had a lazy eye, so that restricted me to some parts of the air crew section, so that’s why I went out a wireless operator in the end. WOPAG they called them as well. And from there, of course, I can’t remember how long exactly, three or four weeks there, I suppose, by the time I was kitted out and initial square bashing you might describe it, and discipline, and Air Force law and that sort of thing. And we went on to, um, Bridgnorth, into ITW, Initial Training Wing, where we did quite a lot of square bashing in there and also Morse code and, er, radio equipment, basic equipment that was really. The Morse code was the most important thing there because you had get to, to be assessed at eight words a minute to pass there fairly quickly and then, er from then we had to do eighteen words a minute, but you only got one chance. If you failed you were out, sort of thing, you know, so that was it. You didn’t get a second chance. I don’t remember many having a second chance anyway at all. About three months there, it was altogether, in early 1943 and, er, we moved then to, to the Radio School in Yatesbury in Wiltshire. I think it was Number 2 Radio School, yeah, Number 2 Radio School, I think it was. That was quite a big unit that was there and, of course, we had to learn all the theory of radio and everything else there and also continue, of course, with our Morse code and, er, coding system, plus the procedure of Morse code as well, which was important of course. And then we had quite a long time there at Yatesbury, unfortunately, because the, um, this course was about a year-long altogether, after the theory part and then the practical part of it. We did a bit of flying then, eventually in Dominie aircraft bi-planes. That was our first part of flying in there and then we continued then as we progressed further, we went on to Proctors. And they had three different airfields there at Yatesbury. They had the main one for the Dominies on the main airfield, then another one which was called Town End, the Proctors used to fly from there, and then another one on occasion we had to go, which was miles away, was at Alton Barnes in the, in the Wolds, in the Downs, the Wiltshire Downs. Three airfields operated from there, actually, altogether and we used to be able to take a cook with us to Alton Barnes, because the local crowd [inaudible] there. We took a cook from the cookhouse with some meat and potatoes and they used to cook it for us, you know, in there, out in the open field with all mud [inaudible] early type of bake house, sort of thing, they had in there. And then after I finished, after Radio School — unfortunately, I did catch chicken pox in there and that set me back quite a bit. I was about nineteen, I suppose, eighteen or nineteen there. Again it was ‘43, late ‘43, that was, and I caught chicken pox and that put me on the sick list for quite a few weeks, you know. I’d be in the isolation hospital for a while as well so that when I came back from leave after sickness, sick leave, I had to go back and do another the course. Because I’d missed so much when I was sick, so I had to go back on another course then. But eventually I travelled from there to, of all things, from Calne in Wiltshire up to Scotland, at West Freugh, which is near Stranraer, which is an initial flying unit and gunnery school as well there. I was still doing gunnery, of course, at that stage, as well, in those days.
DK: Was the idea then, as a wireless operator, you were also an air gunner?
AO: Yes, there was, yeah. WOPAG, yes. Although there was a signaller’s course, but I think they did drop the air gunnery bit eventually but we were still doing it then, air gunnery course, yep. Yes, um, we travelled from Calne. I always remember that journey really well because, well, I’ll go back and tell you one thing I should have mentioned to you in London. I got fed up in London because of the air raids, I had to go in the shelter every night I was there so I was glad to see the back of that and, of all things, when I left Yatesbury, er, we caught the train in Calne and there was a carriage of us, of, of us, travelling up to Scotland. I can’t remember the number, actually, but the carriage was pretty full anyway and, er, we got as far as Bristol and got caught in an air raid there, so got stuck there for two or three hours in the, in an air raid. And so, we eventually moved to the next stop was Crewe where we had refreshments and then carried on to Carlisle, further refreshments there, then on to Stranraer where they picked us up. We didn’t get there until about twenty-seven hours later, it was, the journey took us altogether. And, er, we were rather late getting back into camp, to West Freugh, and there was police there. There was transport for us there that picked us up at the station. Then from West Freugh, I suppose — I’m trying the think how long we were there for, er, about two months I suppose it’d be, roughly, there, yeah. And I finished the — I think I did more gunnery there, probably, than anything else. We did do quite a bit of wireless work, flying out over the Atlantic, over Northern Ireland on the radio, in the Ansons there. And, er, one situation was, we had an engine failure with, with no land in sight anywhere so we had to go back to the nearest airfield there was and it happened to be Tiree. We was, we was stuck there for about five days whilst they flew another engine out that had gone US with us, you know. And, er, then after then we finished there and I went to my first OTU, on to Wellingtons at Peplow, in Shropshire. That would be around about 1945, August, early August in ‘44 that would have been. Yeah, we were in Peplow for — we started training then, more or less, straight away in Peplow and, um, unfortunately I’d been there a week or two and my sister got killed in an accident, you know, so I had some leave at that time to come home for a few days and then I returned to Peplow, but not long afterwards — let’s see — the airfield was rather, one of the boggiest sort of places, very — and it wasn’t very suitable for the aircraft or they didn’t seem to be and they decided to close it down and they moved us to, well, to various OTUs all over the place and ours was the one to, our group went to, er, Lichfield, which was 27 OTU, that was. And as a matter of fact, that was a very good base to get to because they were mostly Canadians and Australians there and, of course, the food was a lot better than what we’d been used to. Obviously they were getting a lot more imported food from somewhere, anyway, for them particularly, the Canadians there. And it was a very good base to work, and my flight commander was an Australian as well, Squadron Leader McIntyre. I’ll always remember him. And that’s where we finished our OTU with him. Not long after being in Lichfield, I was having problems, or we were having a bit of problem with the navigator a little bit, because my fixes and bearings that I was getting on the radio weren’t, tying, tying up completely with the position the navigator was getting on his, on his Gee chart and I thought it must be me. I kept double checking everything I was doing and couldn’t find what I was going, doing wrong but, anyway, one morning coming back after a training flight — quite a long flight it was, about 4.30 in the morning we got back — and, er, the navigation officer was waiting outside the aircraft for us and he said, ‘I want you all in my office.’ he said, ‘Before you have your breakfast.’ And, er, he said to the navigator, he said to go through his chart again, with his fixes and that, and what he was getting on this Gee, Gee reading. You had to get two readings and you got different coloured lines [inaudible] on the Gee chart and he was going along each one with a pencil and then coming back again, taking quite some considerable time really, whereas he should, should be able to do it a few seconds but he was taking quite a long time doing it. He said, ‘What are you doing that for?’ He said, ‘I can’t see the different coloured lines.’ And that was the answer to his problem, you see.
DK: I’m assuming he was colour blind or —
AO: He was colour blind, yep. Yeah, he was colour blind, yeah, and —
DK: I mean it should have been identified earlier, in his medicals?
AO: Yeah. In fact they checked his records, the, the, er, navigation leader checked his records and, of all things, it was recorded in his medicals and he was only to be trained as a navigator but, of course, when he, when he joined up it didn’t matter. I suppose that he was colour blind but, of course, when Gee came out, it did and he just couldn’t tell the difference. The reds and greens, I think he was confused completely you know.
DK: Yes. Colour blind is reds and greens.
AO: And he just could not — and that’s why it was taking such long a long time then, of course, to get his fixes. By, by the time he got his fix sorted out, we’d travelled probably another ten or twelve miles or more, yeah. So we had another, er, a spare navigator then. He, he had come from Pep— yeah, from Peplow with us actually, he had been, and he was the sole survivor of a mid-air crash in Wellingtons. He was a fly— flying officer and he was a very, very — well, probably one of the best navigators I ever flew with. He was a very good navigator. He was a maths teacher, I think, before the war and, er, Flying Officer Junior, Jock Junior his name was, and he only flew a few trips but his nerves broke down again with him on, er, one very bad night, we had on a cross country trip and it was very wet, gale force winds were blowing, and we had a bit of trouble really getting back to base because we were facing a head wind of over a hundred miles an hour, sort of thing, in this gale, you know, at that height and unfortunately he cracked up completely after that. So, so we had to get another navigator then, that was our third one, to start all over again and this — we’d already been in OTU, how long now? I’m trying to think back now, probably, er, six weeks probably, another month or two, yeah, we’d been in OTU nearly three months at that stage. We should have been finishing it nearly. We got an Australian navigator then and that seemed fine but, of course, had to go through the whole course again with the navigator and, er, it was the end of the year or early January before we finished our OUT, then, at Huddersfield. Early January ‘45 that would have been. And we went from there then, at that period, into a Conversion Unit, Heavy Conversion Unit. He wants the name there.
DK: OK. OK.
AO: Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme, onto Lancasters, and that was a different aircraft altogether, you know, a different world completely from the Wellington. I wasn’t all that keen on the Wellington because we’d had so many problems and so many losses at OTU, [inaudible] the casualty rate was horrendous sometimes.
DK: Was that your first close-up of a Lancaster then, was it?
AO: Yeah, in Lindholme, yes it was.
DK: What was your first impressions when you saw it?
AO: Yes because it was a very big aircraft too. Your first impression as you walk up to it, you know, a massive thing. And the first flight or two I had — it was a different thing altogether. It was a beautiful aircraft to fly in, comfortable and —
DK: Did you feel more confident?
AO: Oh, far more confident. A lot more, yes. The Wellington had been, been troublesome. We’d had lots of problems with them, you know, maintenance-wise, where probably the aircraft were worn out, most of them, as well but there was a lot of problems with them. And as soon as you got in a Lancaster — I remember one of the first flights I had to do very early on, was with another pilot who was taking another trainee pilot with him. For some reason they got me as a wireless operator because he couldn’t fly multi-engine aircraft. They had a wireless operator, of course, in them days. That was one of the [inaudible] you had to be, so they got me out of the office somehow and I went off with them on this flight and I always remember the, the feathering engines in turn for practicing and it was still a stable aircraft, you know, altogether and they feathered, I think it was, it was three engines eventually, and then the very first one that they started, failed to start so they had to get the other two started quickly —
DK: At one point you were flying on one engine?
AO: On one engine, yes. But it was still, it was still manageable that was, that aircraft, yes. You would, er, you would probably have travelled, according to the instructor, quite a distance but losing height gradually, it would have gone quite a long way on the one engine. But, anyway, they got the other two engines going and we made a landing on three engines with no problem at all. And I heard them saying that the balance was — wasn’t a lot different to the full engines from losing one engine there on the one side and, possibly, if you lost both, both engines on one side I think it wouldn’t, I think the aircraft would still be manageable but you’d trim it, you know, to being able to fly it reasonably straight and level, yeah, but it was such a big improvement, you know, from the Wellington. It was a very big step, it was. And then, eventually, from Lindholme, we went then to — how long were we there, at Lindholme? I’m trying to think now, um, probably about a month or so I should think, at Lindholme. Yeah, it might have been longer, might have been six weeks, I should think, there at Lindholme altogether, because it was January, or late January, when we got there to start the training. And then at that stage, of course, there seemed to be a lot of air crew coming through the training system at that stage as well. There was a lot of us about and, er, I suppose they were looking for a base to send us to and they sent us to Sturgate for a short period, and it was a holding unit for air, for air crew. We were there only a few days. It didn’t seem many days before we were posted to Scampton, to 153 Squadron. But we settled in there very, very quickly, there was no — well, going from Lancaster to Lancaster, there was no problem. It was a good base, Scampton. Well it was one of the pre-war bases. A good building, good accommodation there, the food was excellent as well there and we were well looked after. And we had a Canadian wing commander, squadron commander there, er, Wing Commander Powley and, er, he met us, introduced himself to us as soon as we got there. But a lot of new crews came in, in March that — and I think it was the worst, probably the worst period in the history of the squadron, March and early April. We lost, in March alone, we lost seven Lancasters and the crews and there were two more Lancasters that were struck off charge. They were so badly damaged they weren’t worth repairing. As a matter of fact, my, a friend of mine, a Flight Lieutenant Wheeler (he was a pilot), I remember him saying — I think it was about that period when he had a third, very bad mishap. He was shot at by night fighters and I think the third one, I think he had to leave it. He had to make a forced landing back of the lines in Belgium and got back about three days later. And I remember, what was his name? Flight, Flight Lieutenant Baxter, the engineering officer, er, going out the mess one morning and having breakfast where Wheeler was, and his crew members with him, or two or three of them were, having breakfast there and he tapped, and Baxter tapped him on the shoulder just as he was going out and said, ‘Wheeler, if you’re going to carry on like this I’m going to start charging you.’ He said. [laugh] I always remember that bit. And then, of course, our very, our first raid — well, I’ll go back to where we were losing these aircraft and Powley then decided to put his name down on the next battle order and, er, I think he felt morale probably getting — people were getting a bit jumpy, all these losses in, in one month. And, unfortunately for Powley, he took John Gees crew and he was shot down, well, a few days later. Early April that was, in, er, on a mining trip. And on another aircraft, Flight Lieutenant Winder was with him, a deputy flight commander. He — they were both lost. Two out of five aircraft went and two were lost and he was one of them and then, a few days later, we, er, I went on a Kiel raid then, that was our first trip out that was on —
DK: That, that was your first operation?
AO: Our very first trip, yep.
DK: How, how did you feel before that as your first operation? Can you remember your sort of feelings of —
AO: Yes, I was just feeling anxious to get on with the job as much as anything, get the war over with, sort of thing because we could see the war was coming to an end, at that stage, and we’d just started as well having, er, lectures on survival. And the Tiger Force were planning to go out there, to the Far East, of course, at that time. It would have been just about that period it would have been, early April time, I suppose when we —
DK: So, um, Tiger Force was actually mentioned quite early on then, before the defeat of Germany?
AO: Well, before the defeat of Germany, definitely, yes it was. Yes, we were having it on — the plan was once Americans, I think if I remember rightly, it was a long time ago now, but once Okinawa was cleared, you know, of Japanese that was, sort of, one of the nearest islands we’d get to get near Japan. That was the idea of it, I think, initially. We wouldn’t have very far to travel from Okinawa.
DK: So, you were always expecting, after Germany, you’d go out to the Far East?
AO: Yeah, within a short period of time we thought, you see, yeah, within —
DK: Sorry, I’m interrupting there, but back to Kiel as your first raid and after that —
AO: Yes, after that. Yeah, the first raid, as I say, we went to Kiel and, um, I always remember that, because obviously, the first one very well and we were carrying, I think, twelve or fourteen five hundred pounders and a four thousand pounder and then it might have been four two fifties, I think it was, two fifty pounders. They were armour piercing bombs. The idea was, we were after the submarine pens ideally [cough] and then I remember the approach of it very well. We hadn’t met much ak-ak fire on the way, one or two, particularly as you turned. We turned different legs, zig zag course, of course. We didn’t go direct to Kiel but did a zig-zag course to it, of course, and we did come across ak-ak fire in one or two places we weren’t pleased with, but getting to Kiel seemed very quiet and I could see the time was, zero time was coming up for our target time, and there was no sign of the master bomber and there was nothing at all, and I could see pretty well in the dark, but there were no markers or anything going down and there was the one searchlight, a stationary searchlight, immediately in front of us. I always remember it was a master searchlight which has a bluish tinge to it and, um, I thought, ‘I don’t like the looks of that at all.’ It was directly in front of us, in our flight, and a few miles ahead and before we got to it, it went off, switched off, and blow me, immediately we got over it, it switched itself back on again and we were caught right in the middle of the beam and, of course, the other searchlights came on to us and we were caught in the beam. But at that stage we’d started our bomb run from the Kiel canal and we were going up to the submarine pens, but still no markers going down. But just at that point, as well, everything seemed to happen at once. The master, master, bomber’s voice came over to bomb the centre of the greens. We saw the markers going down and he said immediately bomb, bomb the centre of the greens, so we carried on with our, er, bombing run, got it completed and, of course, once the bombs had gone, been released, from the Lanc, I felt the four thousand bomber go because that was under my feet because I was standing on my — on the seat above me. I felt that actually go because the aircraft just went.
DK: Could you feel the aircraft go?
AO: Yeah. We had several probably, and two or three under my feet and then, um, we went to corkscrew immediately after. We didn’t have time to take a photograph of the actual — from a photoflash and, er, we corkscrewed out of that one and we dropped about two or three thousand feet and, for some reason, all the searchlights went off all of a sudden. The master searchlight went off. Whether the power plant had been hit, that’s the only thing I can think of, but why would a power plant supply all the other different searchlights as well? I don’t know why they went off but they did.
DK: You’d think there’d be a separate supply, wouldn’t you?
AO: Yeah. You’d thought so but I don’t know, never did find out. But I was just glad to get out of the master searchlight. That was the main thing because he’d locked on to us, you see, with a radar controlled searchlight. And then from, as I say, once that had gone off we gradually pulled out of the, er, pulled out of this corkscrew and gradually climbed back on to course again to fly, to fly over sort of Denmark, to the North Sea. And while pulling out, oddly enough, we were flying back over Denmark, over Kattegat, and it was just where our squadron commander was shot down a few nights before. I didn’t know that at the time, I found that out afterwards. And then we got back, you know, and no aircraft were lost, not in our squadron, anyway, that night, but there was a few, quite a few others got shot down but we all got back safely. And then, er, I eventually carried on from there to — I was going to say, on the Tiger Force but, er, we were still having these lectures, not many, just a few. I can’t even remember how many we had now but there were a few of them. And mainly if you were shot down in the jungle, what to eat, what not to eat, jungle survival, in other words. And then, on the, around the 21st the April, I’m pretty sure that was about the right date, when Lord Trenchard came to visit the base, you know, to give us a pep talk, supposedly. Well, at that period we were still doing some practice dropping of food supplies for Holland, you know, for the Manna drops. We, we were certainly doing them at that stage. We’d just about got it sorted out by then because there was some mistakes made. One of them was, a week or two before Lord Trenchard came — I’m trying to think of the guy’s name, Flight Lieutenant — oh dear, dear. He only died two or three years ago. His name will come to me in a minute. Langford, his name was. He went off to do a demonstration at an airfield to show some top brass how it was done, and he went badly wrong, unfortunately.
DK: Was that dropping food?
AO: Dropping the food supplies that was, yep. I don’t know what sort of containers he was dropping because I wasn’t there at that point, but I know it went badly wrong. I don’t know what happened but, er, he nearly dropped it all on the staff car and all the brass had to run for their lives [laugh] and get out the way. But anyway, by the time Lord Trenchard came, about 21st of April we’d got it and we gave a demonstration for him in the morning, er, and I’m trying — now I can’t remember whether we had our parade before then or after. Oh, I think it was after then, we did this demonstration for the food dropping for him, the Manna drop, when Lord Trenchard came for that bit for the day and I remember we had to put our best uniforms on, of course, you know, all these buttons and brass, badge and everything else, all of us to greet him on the parade ground and he inspected us on, on the parade ground. Late in the morning that was, and we gave a demonstration for him which went very well, on food dropping, to give him some idea how it would work. Then, after lunch that day, he, um, he give us this talk in the station cinema. He had, he had — by then there was another squadron at Scampton, 625 had arrived, only, not many days, or a week or two before. So there was two squadrons based there and we all had to pile into the station cinema and he, um, gave us this pep talk to congratulate us on the work that we’d been doing and so forth, and then he said, ‘Anybody think [inaudible] time on Tiger Force, I’m afraid you won’t be going off, not, not immediately’ he said, ‘because if the Russians don’t stop in Berlin, Bomber Command will be the first line of defence, you know, as a reserve there, so we’re holding you back into reserve for that period.’ So, I thought, ‘Blow me. That’s my Far East trip has gone to pot now then.’ That’s the first thing I thought straight away.
DK: Was there a, a genuine worry, then, that the, the Russians would have kept going west?
AO: Well, there was, there was quite a bit of talk in the mess about it which — and there was, there was a fear of it, that the Russians would not stop there. They’d keep going west. And, er, I think Patton had got that idea as well and I think he was prepared for it, General Patton. I think he was —
DK: How did that make you feel then, that there could have been a continuing war, not just the Germans but the Russians and then the Japanese?
AO: Yes, we thought the European war would never be done because I could see the Russians would have taken some beating, although at least by that stage we had a lot American fighters for protection at that stage as well, which was quite good, er, and in quite large numbers as well and also the latest Spitfires, of course, with the Griffin engines and that in them. They were a better aircraft altogether for defence and escort and that’s why I thought going to the Far East, I thought it would have been fine going to the Far East because, obviously, the defence of Japan was nothing like the Germans had and also the Americans had a very good escort, a fighter escort there. But anyway, that had to go to pot, that idea, out of our heads anyway. And we didn’t have a lot more lectures after that regarding the, the Tiger Force. It went very quiet around I remember. I don’t remember having many after because that put the tin hat on it, I suppose you might say.
DK: Obviously Tiger Force never came about because of the dropping of atomic bombs, did that make you sort of feel — how, how did that make you feel that the war wasn’t going to continue in the Far East?
AO: Well, you see, we were still hoping to go to the Far East, of course, until the atomic bomb was dropped but, er, when things settled down in Europe as it — much better than they anticipated I think, at the time, because if the Russians still kept going it would have been a huge problem obviously. But, er, of course, at that stage the, military-wise, we were pretty strong and the Americans were, of course, at that stage so that we just couldn’t see the Russians making much of an advance with the opposition that we’d got in front of them, particularly the air power as well on our side at that stage, and anyway we were still hoping to be able to go to the Far East, oh, right until probably end of, end July, early August. When was the atomic bomb? Middle of August, something like that.
DK: Early August the bomb was dropped.
AO: Once they dropped the atomic bomb and that was it. I thought, ‘That’s it, the war’s finished now.’ That’s —
DK: How did you feel at that point, relief?
AO: Yes, I suppose. I don’t know the feeling I had about that because we were quite happy, I certainly was, I was quite happy with the Air Force life. I hoped to stop in it for quite a while.
DK: How many operations did you actually do over Europe?
AO: I only did seven all together, yep.
DK: And were Manna drops —
AO: Manna drops as well, but the Manna drops, the very last one actually was on May the 8th , and if you look on, on the internet you can find out through Pathe News records there’s a Lancaster flying over St Paul’s cathedral on VE Day morning and, oddly enough, it’s got to be us going over St Paul’s because when — after briefing that morning, I remember my pilot said, ‘I’ve just had a word with the squadron commander,’ he said, ‘and I’ve asked him for permission to fly over London this morning to see if there’s any celebrations going on.’ And he said, ‘Yes, no problem at all, so long as you behave yourselves, you know.’ And, er, we flew down over London that morning, early morning, and you can find out on, on the internet these days and it’s got to be Lancaster ‘C’ Charlie from 153 Squadron. I’m pretty sure it’s that one and we were on our last journey to Holland, on our very last trip on VE Day morning, and of course the end of the war came back and I don’t remember —
DK: Just going back to the Manna drops do you remember, um, seeing the Dutch people?
AO: Oh yes, the Manna trip, very much so, yes, particularly on the — well, the first one was a race course in, um, in the Hague was the very first one, and then, yes, the last one wasn’t — and then the rear gunner said next time I’m going to take my camera and take some shots, you see, because we were flew very, very low level at that stage. You can read the time on the church clock as we went by, you know. We were low enough for that.
DK: The only reason I say that because I met, a few years ago, a Dutch lady, who was a girl at that time, and she was in awe of the RAF coming over dropping the food. She was only eight or nine at the time and she said she was reduced to eating tulip bulbs and daffodil bulbs and said, you know, seeing the planes come over and the Germans who were still there not firing on you. That was a huge relief to her.
AO: Yes. Yes, they had the ak-ak guns silenced. You can see the guns traversing round following us, you see, but they didn’t fire and, um, I saw several Germans of course, with their rifles on their shoulders, you know, bicycling about on the roads and that. I saw two or three of those about and, er, as I said, but the Dutch people there, how they didn’t get injured I’m sure. They were running on the fields, picking food sometimes, and the food was dropping round them, some of them, particularly in Rotterdam that was, more than the Hague I think, if I remember rightly, because the next three drops was at, at Rotterdam it was and the last one of the war was on VE Day morning was at, er, at the Hague, that was the racecourse at the Hague, yeah. But there was, they were waving to us, you know, and cheering like mad, the Dutch people were, and rushing on the field, on the edge of the food, picking this food up and it was still dropping from the air.
DK: It must have been a marvellous sight, seeing you come over, dropping the food?
AO: Yeah, it must have been for them to see all these aircraft coming close together, you know, and very, very low level, about two hundred feet or —
DK: What she said to me, she said that what, what really gave them confidence was looking, seeing the Germans not firing on your aircraft and knowing it would all be over soon.
AO: Yeah, but the biggest shock I had really, on looking back on that, was how much of Holland was under water, been flooded and it was dreadful, it really was. Why the Germans did that, at that stage of the war, when the war was more or less lost, and then to breach the dykes like they did. It looked to me as if half of Holland was under water, you know, but you could see vast areas of it, just farm houses, you know sticking up, and that’s where they were. Yeah.
DK: So the war’s ended now, um, how, how did your RAF career go on after that? Were you in the RAF for much longer?
AO: I stayed in till the following year. We, we were fortunate because we were — they picked several crews out. I think it was, how many? Eight or ten crews, to do field trials, or user trials, on H2S Mark 4. Yeah, we went, started on that, just about when the atom bomb was dropped there. Once the end of the war came then we were transferred under that, more or less straight away, to do that work and then the Squadron, 153 Squadron and 46 was disbanded in September, I think it was, September ’45 and I don’t know what happened to a lot of the crews but we were, the ones that had been chosen to do the field trails on H2S Mark 4, we were transferred to 12 Squadron at Binbrook.
DK: And was this your entire crew that moved over so they were all the same guys?
AO: Yeah, Ted Miles our navigator, was an Australian and —
DK: So you got yet another navigator [slight laugh]?
AO: Yeah, we had to get another navigator at that stage, yep, and Mark Bass, he went but, oddly enough, I think just before the end of war, as I understood it from [inaudible] I had been recommended for a commission, and also my navigator had as well, and he was — but, of course, the end of the war came and the Air Force more or less put everything on hold regarding, er, any promotions at that stage because, obviously, there was a lot of surplus crews about all over the place, all over the world virtually, and then the Australians and Canadians, the bulk of those would be going home. Well, Mark, my navigator, he went to, to pick his commission up. His was, er, carried through. He had to go to London, I suppose, to the, to the Australian — what do you call the —
DK: The embassy?
AO: Well, yeah. Not the embassy, you called them. Well, I’m trying to think what they called them in them days, but anyway, he picked up his, um, commission up and he, he didn’t come back to squadron again. He, you know, more or less went straight back to Australia on the next boat home I think, so he didn’t stay here long at all. So, unfortunately, we didn’t see him to — see him before he went, you know. We assumed he was coming back from London but that wasn’t the case, unfortunately, and then we had another navigator, of course, from then onwards, and another spare one, because all, as I say, nearly all the Canadians and Australians went back. But our signals leader, who I was very friendly with, was a New Zealander but he stayed on to the end, until the squadron disbanded. But what happened to him after that I don’t know because we went off to Binbrook and he went in another direction somewhere and, er, we stayed there at Binbrook then until ’46 before the trials had finished, all these H2S trials.
DK: Where were the trials done then? The H2S Mark 4 trials?
AO: Yeah this was, this — we finished the trials. Most of them were — well, we went all over the country doing the trials, all over the place, in all weather conditions as well. Also taking a lot of photographs of the screen itself to record the various towns and cities all over the country as well.
DK: Just in the UK?
AO: Mostly in the UK, yeah. And, er, when that was finished some — I came out then. I was under, under Class B, because they wanted me back home, unfortunately. Class B was a reserved occupational status again. I should have came back and agriculture came back very early compared with some of the other crew and they stayed on. They were on Lincolns then, flew on Lincolns.
DK: How did you feel about leaving the RAF at that point?
AO: I wasn’t very happy, no. No, well, I was quite happy where I was. I was doing a flying job there, which I thoroughly enjoyed, flying quite often, not every day but quite very often anyway and I was quite happy to stay in the Air Force and, er, I was considering a life probably in the Air Force but anyway they wanted me back home again. Let’s see, my father had died 1940, then my sister in ‘44 and I think it left my mother in a rather tight hole, so there was nothing for it but for me to come back home farming and I then stuck to farming the rest of my life.
DK: So how old were you by the time the war had finished then?
AO: I’d be twenty-one in, um, in end of, end of November ‘45.
DK: Not even twenty-one? [slight laugh]
AO: [slight laugh] Yes, yes.
DK: So, from then onwards was, has your life been on the farm?
AO: Yes, mostly I’ve been on the farm since then, yep, but same farm. I came to this house here, I came here in 1957 I came here, so I’ve been here ever since.
DK: Have you, have you remained in touch with your crew at all or —
AO: Yes. I keep touch. As I say, my navigator died about four or five years ago but I was constantly in touch and went to visit him in Australia as well. And my pilot is still alive. He lives in Majorca at the moment, but unfortunately the poor chap’s got Parkinson’s disease and he’s very, very deaf as well, probably due to the Lancaster engine noise, probably. I don’t know. And the other, the rear gunner, I was in touch with him. I picked — I lost contact with him altogether. He was in the farming world and I picked him up about — not far from Duxford, he lived in the end of the days but his life was a bit of a tragedy. He’d been adopted and his life was messed up completely and going from one place to another and had a lot of problems with family life and he died a few years ago. I did go and visit him a year or two before he died. And then the rest of the crew I haven’t been touch at all with them. I say, I knew, once, the bomb aimer, Norman Kirkman. He was a professional footballer before the war. I think Preston or Burnley, one or the other. Preston I think it was, and he came to, er, visit on a weekend in Leeds with my old pilot. But me and the pilot, old pilot and navigator, were the only ones in touch all the time, constantly in touch, while we could and were healthy enough to travel about. And Bill Edmonds came from Australia each year for several years to the reunion in Lincoln.
DK: Do you still attend the union— reunions, the reunions for your squadron, do you still attend those?
AO: Yes. We used to travel — when they first had them at the war. They started the reunions more or less after the end of the war and I missed the out first ones few to start with and they used to travel about to different parts of the country each year, er, in February-time. And then my first one was about, around about, 1956 I went to Doncaster. They had one there. And from then onwards it — a great lot of guys to be with, of course, been with them during the war years and they were good company to be with, all these fellas, you know. And, um, from then onwards we went to — oh, we went to Grimsby twice, er, Grimsby, then Cleethorpes, er, and then we decided then travelling was so bad in the winter, February-time. We were caught in a very bad winter there and we decided to have it a bit later in the year, in May, and stick to Lincoln and have it in the — what was the Grand Hotel in Lincoln. Because The Saracen’s Head was the place we used to mostly to congregate mostly in Lincoln of course, near the bridge there but it’s not any more. I don’t know what it is these days now. The other place we’d congregate, if you could get through the door, because it was packed with aircrew all the time. But then I stuck to farming life then for, for right up until twenty years ago, twenty-odd years ago. I retired then when I was sixty-five, twenty-five, twenty-six years ago coming up now it is, yeah.
DK: How do you feel now looking back after all these years about, you know, your period with the Air Force and Bomber Command is it something you, you know, you look at with pride and [inaudible]
AO: Yes. It was, it was a period of my life I wouldn’t have missed it for anything, that period of my life, yep. It was a good eye opener and also for me to meet an awful lot of people, you know.
DK: OK. I’ll stop there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Taff Owen
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOwenA150603
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:52:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Aneurin ‘Taff’ Owen was born neat Dolgellau, near Penmaenpool in Wales, and joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18 in 1942. Taff was a farmer’s son and as such was put into a reserved occupation, so some of the areas of the Royal Air Force were not open to him. He became a wireless operator/air gunner after his training in 1942. He tells of his sighting of his first aircraft at the age of nine and of seeing a travelling flying circus, which fanned his love of flying. Whilst he was training, he flew in Dominie biplanes before progressing onto Proctors. He tells of flying in Ansons and going to 27 Operational Training Unit in RAF Lichfield flying in Wellington bombers before serving in a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Lindholme on Lancaster. He then transferred to 153 Squadron based at RAF Scampton. His tells about his first trip which was an operation on the submarine pens in Kiel and he tells of his training for Operation Manna and the food drops into the fields in Holland. He also says that the image on Pathe News showing a Lancaster flying over St Paul’s on VE Day is the Lancaster he was in at the time. He tells of catching chicken pox and having to repeat his courses, his problems with a navigator who was colour blind, and the heavy losses experienced at the Operational Training Unit. After the war, in 1946, despite wanting to stay in the Air Force, he returned to farming, retiring when he was 65 years of age.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Kiel
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-08
153 Squadron
27 OTU
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
demobilisation
Dominie
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military living conditions
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Lichfield
RAF Lindholme
RAF Peplow
RAF Scampton
RAF West Freugh
RAF Yatesbury
recruitment
searchlight
submarine
Tiger force
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/PPayneG1702.2.jpg
2f46ef1a16000254b14a168175fe9b28
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/PPayneG1701.2.jpg
b039d51b699a66b9cdfd0a9ed039e2d9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/APayneGA170528.1.mp3
4f2ec096b73aad4bee119f3e1be46588
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Geoff
Geoffrey Albert Payne
G A Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Geoff Payne (b. 1924, 1584931 Royal Air Force) and his memoir. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 115 and 514 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Geoff Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BJ: So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Brenda Jones. The person being interviewed is Geoffrey Payne. The interview is taking place in Mr. Payne’s home in Cumbernauld on the 28th of May 2017. Mr. Payne, thank you for agreeing to talk to me today. Could you tell me about your life before you joined the RAF?
GP: Well, my life was a bit raggedy, I was an apprentice to Sheet Metal Work and worked in a company in the centre of Birmingham and we were manufacturing spats for Lysander aircraft and making fire pumps, things like that and more interested in sports than anything else [laughs].
BJ: And how did you come to join the RAF?
GP: Well, I joined the Air Training Corps, which I was one of the original members and it was the Air Training Corps was at Birmingham was the Austin Motor Company Squadron which was 480 and 479, there were two squadrons in the, ATC squadrons, and that’s why I started to get involved with the, with the Air Force, thinking a lot about the Air Force at the time. We went to camp to RAF Weeton, which was a Pathfinder Squadron, 7 Squadron, which were flying Stirlings and the most funniest part about us, we wanted to go into St Yves for the evening and we had to know a password to go out of the place because there was operations on that night and they said the password was WATER, which was this, I think they were pulling our legs or something like that, they said because the Germans can’t sound the w’s is wasser, so that was the sort of thing, that gave me a great interest in the Air Force.
BJ: OK. And when did you come to join the Air Force?
GP: I joined when I was seventeen and a half and I went to Vishyde Close in Birmingham to get assessed and I was assessed as a pilot and I was given a number and then sent back to work again because they wouldn’t call me up until I was eighteen but in the meantime I had a letter from them saying that it would possibly take far too long for me to become a pilot and that they’d had other vacancies in the Air Force which was an air gunner so I decided to do that.
BJ: And what year was this?
GP: 1943, yes.
BJ: And what happened when you started with the RAF?
GP: What happened?
BJ: Yes, what did your training involve?
GP: The training, we went to London, to Lord’s Cricket Ground and then we were put into high-rise flats and then we had our meals at the London zoo and used to march there every, for breakfast those [unclear] and tea and there’s one occasion there when there was a heavy air raid and at Lord’s Cricket Ground there’s the Regent’s Park and [unclear] anti-aircraft comes and we had to move out and go to another set of flats which was a hospital, which the RAF hospital, and carry all the patients down from the high floors cause they wouldn’t, couldn’t go down in the lifts and carry the, down in stretchers into the basement and back up then and then after that initial training, I went to Bridlington for ITW and that’s a nice seaside place, enjoyed it there and then off we went to Air Gunners School which was in the Isle of Man, just outside Ramsey, a place called Andreas and then, after three months of training, we were sent to an ITW, which was in Banbury where we were crewed up and flew in Wellingtons and from then we, we had to go to Heavy Conversion Unit which was a Stirling set-up, a place called Wratting Common in Cambridgeshire and we did that and then also we moved to, did an escape course at Feltwell and which was hilarious and then.
BJ: What did they teach you there about escaping?
GP: Unarmed combat and this sort of thing but it was, it just became a laugh actually [laughs] so, but we were there for the week and then we went back onto Wratting Common on Stirlings but at that time the Stirlings was being phased out from operations in the, for the main force in Bomber Command and we were transferred to, onto Lancasters which were radial engines Mark II, Hercules engines and from then we did a couple of weeks training there before we were put onto the squadron.
BJ: How did you find the Lancasters compared to the Stirlings?
GP: I didn’t like the Stirlings at all.
BJ: Ah!
GP: No, they frightened me because whilst I was converting onto Stirlings, I had to go to Newmarket to do a short gunnery course there and in the meantime my crew then crashed one of the Stirlings at [unclear] market so and but I, they phased these Stirlings out and that’s why I went on to Lancasters and then from Lancasters on Waterbeach we moved to a squadron which was RAF Witchford.
BJ: Ok. What happened when you got to Witchford?
GP: [laughs] We arrived at Witchford and then the following day we had to go round, signing in, which is a normal thing, you go to all the various sections and sign in and so forth like that and you get your billets and that and I went to the gunnery leaders office to sign in there and he says, ah yes, he says, you’re on tonight and that was the second day I was there [laughs] and I was, I said, what for? He says, well, there’s a rear gunner taken ill and you’ll have to, you’ll be flying with Lieutenant Speelenburg who was South African.
BJ: How did you feel about that?
GP: Terrible, it was, it was, to do a first op with a sprog crew which, the crew was a, they hadn’t done any operations before anyway and I hadn’t done any operations so they obviously bloodied with a new crew and that was one of the most horrendous air raids I’ve been on and that was to Augsburg, in southern Germany which was an eight hour journey, it was the most frightening experience I’ve ever had in my life so.
BJ: What happened on the mission?
GP: Oh, we got attacked over the target by a, by two Messerschmitt 109s, well, we got through that alright but it was, I never in my life would have expected to witness such a melee which was over the target, and I thought to myself I’m not coming out through this loss.
BJ: Do you remember what the target was?
GP: Augsburg.
BJ: Yes.
GP: It was the MAN works.
BJ: Ok.
GP: So that was, it was a night trip, eight-hour trip.
BJ: And did you stay with that crew then after?
GP: No, no.
BJ: No. So, how did you get assigned to a crew?
GP: I’d already got my crew,
BJ: Oh, ok.
GP: From, from Banbury, from Chipping Warden. I’d already got my crew, my crew were there but they were doing cross country south. So that was me doing me first op and I thought, I’ll never gonna get through this. So, that was my first operation and in the morning I couldn’t get off to sleep so I decided to, I walked into Ely and the Oxford and Cambridge boat race was on there so that was the, because they didn’t have the boat races in London because of the bombings, so I saw the boat race there.
BJ: Oh, ok.
GP: And came back, that’s it, so I said, no, that’s it, you can’t, you got to, maybe get through this alright but just forget about it and take it as it comes.
BJ: Ok. So, what, what was, can you tell me a bit more about some of the other missions you flew from Witchford?
GP: Well, I only did, I only did five operations from Witchford and I got frostbite, because we got attacked by a night fighter which destroyed all the communications and heating in the aircraft, but we managed to get back ok. So, that was alright and that was me put away from frostbite to Ely hospital for some time and then I was transferred to Waterbeach for recuperation and then I picked up another crew at Waterbeach which is Ted Cousins’s and I finished my tour of operations at Waterbeach with that crew.
BJ: What were you flying in at Waterbeach?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: What planes were you flying in from Waterbeach?
GP: Lancaster IIs.
BJ: Lancaster IIs. Ok, right, and can you tell me as what it was like on the base there, day to day life?
GP: Base was good because Witchford was a wartime place and everything was so dispersed you could walk miles for meals and things like that. But Waterbeach was a pre-war station and everything was on tap and there were nice billets and cosy, not like the Nissen huts that we did have, so these were brick-built, brick-built buildings and quite comfortable in a way.
BJ: And what did you do in your time off?
GP: Just going home [laughs].
BJ: Really? Aha.
GP: If you could get home. [unclear] the time off just mainly drinking [laughs].
BJ: What was it like coming home after being on operations?
GP: It was very strange and it’s a funny thing, I haven’t been away from home until I went in the Air Force. It’s a very strange feeling when you come back home and see that, it was a good feeling, but it didn’t last long so I had to go back again and that was it.
BJ: And what did you tell your mum and dad about your life in the RAF?
GP: I didn’t tell them anything, I didn’t think it was fair.
BJ: Ah.
GP: Because my brother, my brother was a navigator wireless operator on Mosquitoes, he was out in Burma so there’s both of us, there were three boys in the family and just my elder brother and myself were in the Air Force and the younger brother, he went in the army, just after the war. It was, it was quite strange because all your friends were away and we just had to nosy around, just going to the pictures or something like that. It wasn’t all that pleasant, it’s nice to see your family but as I say, it was quite boring.
BJ: And what sort of missions were you involved in, when you were at Waterbeach? Where were the targets?
GP: The targets, Witchford was, the targets were German targets, Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Augsburg and one or two others. From Waterbeach there was quite a variety of targets which are sometimes daylight raids and night raids, sometimes were French targets, and then all of a sudden you’d be onto a German target at night, which is [unclear] sorted it out.
BJ: What did you have a preference for daytime or nighttime missions?
GP: I used to like to rather go at night time, I didn’t like daytime [laughs]. You could see too much.
BJ: Right. Were there any particularly memorable missions that you flew on?
GP: Actually, most of them were quite memorable, we did a raid to Beckdiames which was in Southern France and that was an eight hour trip and this was a daylight raid and we went out at under a thousand feet all the way and until we got to the target, the target was a port actually and we climbed up to the bombing height, bombed and dropped down to, under a thousand feet again because of the radar, that was the idea of it but it was a long trip, it was an eight hour trip and it was quite a dangerous trip because the Bay of Biscay it was the, the Junkers 88 used to wonder around there quite a lot, you know, so. And then, there was another one which was to Stettin which was in Poland and that was another long trip, under a thousand feet all the way, this was a night time raid and we flew over Denmark and we could see the lights of Sweden and the anti-aircraft fire was coming up from Sweden, things like that [laughs] and then we went to, got to Stettin which we got to the bombing height and came back down again and what [unclear], we just lost one, one squadron, one aircraft on that squadron. So, and there was, there’s quite a few things which, one of the most scary attacks that we had was my last operation really to Duisburg. And that was the, the squadron went out early to bomb Duisburg, there was over a thousand aircraft to do it, and then, as soon as we got back, over the target the air was black with flak and it was the most frightening experience, I was in daylight did not expect to go to a German target in daylight and then it gradually settled down then but when we got back, we were sent down to, the air gunners were sent down to the bomb disposal place to help to load bombs up again for the same target and then the following day the German, the Americans bombed the same place, that was a disastrous place, terrible. That was about it, you know, but most of the trips were rather scary cause you never knew what was gonna happen there [unclear], you could be attacked by fighters any time.
BJ: What was it like being up in the turret?
GP: Very cold. Very cold [unclear] with ice all the way down there because we didn’t have any Perspex in the turret, we had it taken out because you can just imagine if you are flying at night and you can get attacked by a fighter and if you get any dirt on your Perspex you wouldn’t, it would be a, you wouldn’t know whether you got a fighter coming through, you see but where I got frostbite was around about forty degrees below but you see, your oxygen mask you had a lot of breath dripping down you know, froze up and all that.
BJ: What were you wearing to keep warm then?
GP: Well, I had a heated suit actually, the first time was one of these urban jackets and trousers which were all [unclear] and things like that. Eventually they got full heated suits which you’d plug into your boots and plug into your gloves, they heated up all over so you, you weren’t so cumbersome in the turret so, so that wasn’t too bad. It was when, the one time I said when the, the heating got shot up but it was cold.
BJ: Ok. And anything else that you remember about your time in the two squadrons?
GP: I’m just trying to think about it now. I was involved in athletics with the squadron so I did [unclear] got plenty of time off, things like that, apart from my flying, I was excused duties because I was, I got involved in football and things like that, I didn’t have to do any guard duties and things like that so.
BJ: Ok. Did that involve you going around to other bases?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: Did you go to other bases doing that?
GP: It was just the odd at lib sort of things, you know, you compete against the Americans or something like that, you know and,
BJ: Ok, how did you get on?
GP: We weren’t as good as the Americans, I tell you.
BJ: [laughs]
GP: No, we weren’t as good as the Americans, no, they got far greater facilities and that sort of things like that, you know.
BJ: Ok, and what did you do at the end of the war? What, you know, how did you get demobbed and that sort of thing?
GP: Well, when the, as I finished mature, I was sent up to a place in Northern Scotland, place called Bracla and that was for time expired men, aircrew you see, had [unclear] virtually offices and things like that, and my, my flight commander was up there as well, Lord Mackie, he ended up as Lord Mackie and we just had to march about and things like that and then we were selected for ordinary jobs in the Air Force you see and I wanted to become a PTI which is a Physical Training Instructor because I would’ve had the opportunity to go through to Loughborough and take sports right the way through and then that’s what I wanted to go for but they put me down as a driver [laughs]. So I moved from there and went to driving school at Weeton in Blackpool which was quite good actually, it was quite enjoyable and then from then I was, I went to various camps in this country and then my final camp was in Germany where I was with a microfilm unit taking microfilm documents of all the machine tool drawings and things like that and that’s,
BJ: Where was that?
GP: That was at Frankfurt, Frankfurt but we wondered around Stuttgart and other places, went round all these factories and taking these microfilms of these documents and things like that, that was the, that was my end, I ended and came back to Weeton where I was demobbed.
BJ: So, what was it like being in Germany, down on the ground, this time?
GP: It was, it wasn’t too bad, we weren’t allowed to fraternise at all, you know, we did play football against the Germans and things like that and got thrushed.
BJ: Oh, alright [laughs]
GP: So, I played for the army when we were in Frankfurt and we played a game against the Germans, select team which is if we really got thrushed and that was the first time we realised what sort of football the continentals played as compared with our football but anyway that was, I enjoyed my time in Germany and I learned to speak German quite fluently and which stood me in good sted with my civilian job so that was good and
BJ: How did you learn to speak German?
GP: Well, I had to speak German [laughs].
BJ: Yeah?
GP: Well, I mean, if you were driving around and things like that and you lost your way, you had to talk and things like that so that’s how it went [unclear] I wish I had kept it up actually, which it would have been useful to me but it was useful anyway because I dealt with the Germans, a German company in me civilian life more so than anything and of course was a strange thing that the fellow that I dealt with in Germany, he was a Luftwaffe pilot [unclear] [laughs] and something I know quite well actually.
BJ: Did you tell him you’d been in the RAF?
GP: Yes, yeah. So, I mean it was no end to the, not at all, not with service people [unclear] so they got a job to do, we got a job to do and that was it but
BJ: So what did you do after you were demobbed then?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: What did you do after the RAF? After you left?
GP: I went back to my old company and I gradually progressed there, we were manufacturing cars, Standard, the Triumph and the Triumph Spitfires and these sort of things, and but there was so much, so many problems down in the Midlands with the car industry of strikes and all that sort of thing and I just got married and we bought a new house and things like that, it’s becoming very difficult because we’re going on short time, even when you’re on staff you’re on short time so, I decided to make a move and come up here and that was that.
BJ: What did you do up here, in Scotland?
GP: I ended up as a production director at Carron company in Falkirk and but I set up a, came up and set up a plant for manufacturing steel bars and that sort of thing and then I did twenty-three years there and that’s it.
BJ: Ok, and how do you think being in Bomber Command affected the rest of your life?
GP: It did affect me because the, the people, the people that you met in Bomber Command, they were virtually like your brothers, a wonderful set up, it was great and as I say, it was still, we’re still getting involved with reunions and one of the addresses, the two addresses that I gave you, these are the people that I flew with, so, it was, I wouldn’t have missed it for the world. Really.
BJ: Ok. Alright, anything else you’d like to add, Mr. Payne?
GP: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s about all, that’s, I summarised quite a bit.
BJ: Alright. Thank you very much.
GP: Ok, thank you. [file continued] I’m trying to fill it all in you, you can’t.
US: I know you can’t [unclear], I just.
BJ: Right, this is the interview with Mr. Payne continuing.
GP: Right, one of the most horrendous trips that I did was to Frankfurt. And after the target, we were coming back, we were about half an hour away back from the target when I spotted a aircraft with about four hundred meters behind below and it turned out to be a Messerschmitt 109 and I wanted, I tried to warn the, I tried to warn the pilot but the intercom had frozen up, my mouthpiece had frozen up and I tried to Morse coding with the emergency light and the emergency light wasn’t working so that was it, there was actually nothing I could do about it and as the aircraft came closer to me, which was below at about a hundred meters, I opened fire on it and the guns jammed so therefore I was completely at a loss, I couldn’t do anything, I couldn’t warn the captain or anything about cause I’ve no intercom and no emergency lighting so I just had to hang on a bit and then after a minute the aircraft came underneath us and opened fire and blasted all the centre of the aircraft and the smell of cordite was amazing and then the aircraft started to manoeuvre all over the sky doing very violent evasive action or I thought that we were out of control, completely out of control so I got out of my turret and walked back and found that the main door was swinging open and then I got up to the mid upper turret and the mid upper gunner had gone, he’d bailed out and there was all cannon shell holes all around his turret there, so eventually I thought, that so quiet I thought the rest of the crew had gone, now I walked up, gradually I got through into the main cabin and found the rest of the crew were ok and so forth and that we went back to the sit in the turret, well, I couldn’t do anything anyway, so we were coming in to land, but we got back home ok, coming in to land and I started to smell cordite and I, I looked about at the back in the, in the ammunition panniers and there was a fire in there which must have got hit by an incendiary bullet and we had to land, emergency land and it was, it was an incendiary bullet, that was wedged in the bullets, so [laughs], that was that day but there was also another one, no, I don’t think I will talk about that, just [unclear].
BJ: Ok, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoff Payne
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brenda Jones
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APayneGA170528, PPayneG1702, PPayneG1701
Format
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00:32:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
United States Army Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Geoff Payne has his first experience of the Royal Air Force with the Air Training Corps, at RAF Wyton in Cambridgeshire, where he had one of his first experiences of military humour. He joined in 1943 at the age of 17 and a half hoping to become a pilot - he took the faster option because of his young age and trained as an air gunner.
Basic training was carried out at Lords Cricket ground in London. One clear memory is helping to carry patients down several flights of stairs from a nearby hospital during an air raid.
Time was spent at RAF Bridlington on Initial Training Wing before attending Air Gunnery School in the Isle of Man. Further training was undertaken at RAF Banbury where he was crewed up on Wellingtons, before moving to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Wratting Common to convert to Stirlings. During his time here he attended an escape course at RAF Feltwell and was instructed in unarmed combat, which he dismissed as pitiful.
He and his crew were posted to RAF Witchford, Cambridgeshire, where he flew his first operation in February 1944 replacing an ill air gunner. He later discovered this was an inexperienced crew. He remembers the target was around Osnabrück in Germany and it was a melee over the target where they were attacked by two Me 109s, which they successfully shook off. On his return, he remembers being unable to sleep and went for a walk into Ely. There he discovered the Oxford Cambridge boat race was being held and watched it
Target areas of Germany included Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Augsburg. On his 5th operation, the aircraft was attacked, and the aircraft lost its heating and communications. He suffered frostbite and spent several months recovering in Ely hospital.
On regaining fitness, he was transferred to RAF Waterbeach and was allocated to a crew led by Ted Cousins. Waterbeach was a pre-war airfield with comfortable facilities. Time off was spent competing in athletics and football along with drinking at the local public houses.
When time allowed, he went home, but found the experience boring: all his friends were serving away, and there was little to do except drink or go to the cinema. His elder brother was serving as a navigator in the Far East, and he felt it unfair to talk about his experiences with his family.
At RAF Waterbeach there was a greater variety of operations. Targets varied from Germany to Southern France. He also remembers one trip to Poland. This entailed flying over Denmark and they could see the lights from Sweden and anti-aircraft fire.
He has a clear memory of most of his operations but does not wish to dwell on some. On one occasion he spotted a Me 109, he tried to warn the pilot but his intercom had frozen and emergency light was inoperative. He tried to open fire but his guns jammed – the night fighter opened fire and hit the centre of the aircraft. The aircraft began violently manoeuvring and he wasn’t sure if this was deliberate evasive manoeuvres or if they were out of control. He made his way forward and discovered the aircraft door open and the mid upper gunner missing. There were cannon holes all around the centre of the aircraft. He still wasn’t sure if he was the only one on board until he reached the main cabin and found the rest of the crew in position. They made it back home where they realised an incendiary bullet was lodged in the ammunition pannier.
His last operation was one of the thousand-bomber operations in Germany, the air black with anti-aircraft fire. On his return, the air gunners went sent to the bomb dump to assist the armourers in preparing the bombs for the following days attack which was carried out by the United States Army Air Forces.
After completing his tour of operation, he was posted to RAF Brackla, hoping to be retained as physical training instructor, but ended up at RAF Weeton near Blackpool to be trained as a driver.
He served at several locations across Southern England before his final posting which was with a microfilm unit in Frankfurt. Fraternising with locals was not allowed, but he did manage to learn German. He played in a football match against a much better German select team.
After demob, he returned home and was involved in the manufacturing of cars at the Triumph factory. He married, and because of unrest and strikes in the car industry, he moved to Scotland and was employed at the Carron company in Falkirk as a production director manufacturing steel bars, where his ability to speak German became an advantage in his dealings with foreign companies. He met an ex Luftwaffe pilot and experiences were exchanged - there was no animosity whatsoever and it was accepted they both had been carrying out their duty.
Geoff looks back on his time in Bomber Command with great fondness. It was like a big family. He still has contact with surviving crew members, and still attends reunions.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Ely
England--Lancashire
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
France
Germany
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Stuttgart
Denmark
Sweden
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Scotland
Scotland--Falkirk
Scotland--Nairnshire
Scotland--Stirlingshire
Germany--Osnabrück
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
115 Squadron
514 Squadron
7 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Me 109
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Brackla
RAF Bridlington
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Feltwell
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
RAF Wyton
sport
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1095/11554/PRichardsSJ1701.1.jpg
423cd47d71ee02b49191494a23839591
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1095/11554/ARichardsSJ170322.2.mp3
ea476708802e3c90dea11098a537f344
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richards, Sidney James
S J Richards
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Sidney Richards (b.1920, 13846882 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 49 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Richards, SJ
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: Okay Sidney. Can you tell me just a little bit about where you were born and about growing up before you joined the RAF?
SJR: Ah yeah. I was born at Greenwich, Harley Cottages and eh war came and I was working in the arsenal. I could have stayed in there but em decided to join the air force and I joined and I was accepted em to train as the air crew and carried on from there.
DM: Can you remember where you trained?
SJR: Pardon?
DM: Where did you train? Can you remember?
SJR: I trained at, oh wait a minute? [pause] In the Midlands. Near Nottingham it was. Yeah. In the Midlands.
DM: And you trained as a Wireless Operator Air Gunner. Is that right?
SJR: Eh?
DM: A Wireless Operator Air Gunner. Is that right?
SJR: Yeah. Wireless Operator Air Gunner. Yeah. I was accepted as that. You had an interview if you wanted to be aircrew to see if you were suitable [coughs] and they said okay and I had the interview and all the rest of it and they said ‘We’ll accept you in aircrew’. [pause] Of course it was a voluntary thing, aircrew. [coughs] So em the retraining from then on, aircrew.
Other: You were gonna join the em the Navy weren’t you? But changed your mind at the last minute.
SJR: Yeah. Changed my mind. Was gonna go in the Navy and then the Air Force and then I changed me mind and decided to have a go in the Air Force as aircrew. You know.
DM: Can you remember why you changed your mind?
SJR: Pardon?
DM: Can you remember why you changed your mind?
SJR: Well, I fancied aircrew. You know.
DM: You wanted to be a fly boy?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: So after you trained, do you remember anything about crewing up? Can you remember how that went? How you found your crew?
SJR: Oh yes. Em. Well you all mucked in together and generally had a chat with each other and Bob Petty was my skipper he was the pilot and eh we got together that way talking to each other and so on. And em then we became a crew. And it was a good crew I was in and eh Bob Petty he’s gone back to South Africa or he’s gone to South Africa. Otherwise I expect we’d have kept in touch but eh I don’t have the training. So eh.
Other: Who else was in your crew?
SJR: Pardon?
Other: Who else was in your crew?
SJR: Oh, there was the navigator of course. [mumbles]
Other: Who was the navigator?
SJR: Eh. The navigator? Oh, John Tulloch. Yeah he was the navigator.
Other: And you were particularly friends with him, weren’t you?
SJR: Yeah. Oh John Tulloch. Yeah.
DM: Was he Scottish by any chance? [chuckles]
SJR: [chuckles] Oh John. Yeah.
DM: Thought he might be.
SJR: We got on well together. He lives in London so we used to meet up at times in London, you know? Him and his wife. And eh have a meal and so on, so oh yes, as I say he went off to South Africa.
DM: So you were based in, was it Fiskerton you were based?
SJR: Fiskerton. Yes.
DM: Fiskerton yeah. What was it like there? What was life like on the base?
SJR: Oh just normal you know. We used to go into the village have a drink. You know. Eh just normal sort of country life. The locals had to put up with us [chuckles] so eh. That’s about it. We used to go into Lincoln for a night out or anything. Of course the Midlands was full of aircrew like me. And eh the airforce weren’t bothered as long as you were there for ops. You could do what you liked virtually, but as long as you were there they’d say ‘Ops on tonight’ as long as you were there. But otherwise it was a pretty easy life. Nobody interfered with you or anything so eh, we had an easy time of it when we weren’t on ops. [chuckles]
Other: Was there one time you were cycling home from a pub one night and someone tried to stop you? Wasn’t there a policeman stood in front in the road?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: What happened there?
SJR: Eh I forget now.
Other: You and a couple of others were cycling back.
SJR: Yeah. [hesitates]
Other: And didn’t the policeman suddenly jump out in the road to stop you for some reason?
SJR: Yeah. I can’t remember.
Other: Can’t remember.
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: He tried to stop you and you just cycled round him.
SJR: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, that’s right.
Other: [laughs] and waved goodbye.
SJR: Yeah and rushed out and we just, as though we were gonna pull up and stand there and everything, so we just shot away [laugher] [coughs]. Well that’s what life was like in the Midlands with aircrew and everything. Nothing to lose, you know. Here today, gone tomorrow type of attitude. But eh it was alright otherwise, as long as you were there for flying they weren’t bothered what you got up to really.
DM: Can you remember anything about your first operation? Your first flight?
SJR: Eh. First one [hesitates]
DM: How did you feel? Were you sort of nervous before you flew or?
SJR: Oh you were apprehensive, you know. It was over the Ruhr. A lot of raids were over the Ruhr. That’s where everything was there. And eh you just got on with it, you know. And eh landed back again, had a nice meal and went to bed. So they didn’t interfere with you much in those days, the aircrew, you know. As long as you were there for your job that was it but eh you could come and go in those days as much as you liked really. As long as they said you were on tonight as long as you were there. So it was an easy life really.
DM: Do you remember, cos you said you flied over the Ruhr. Do you remember much about the flak? Was it bad over there?
SJR: Oh well, flak yeah. Eh plenty of flak going in and eh you dropped your bombs and you go up another two thousand feet when you got rid of them and so it was quite a nice peaceful flight home cos you were too high for the em they used to, flak used to go off lower and over the Ruhr coming up to the Ruhr you got plenty of it. Occasionally you’d see a plane go down but eh well I did twenty like that and eh had a good crew, a good pilot, Bob Petty, and eh that was it. As long as you were there for any trips you know, aircrew, they didn’t bother too much what you got up to [laughs].
DM: Did you have any encounters with enemy aircraft?
SJR: Any what?
DM: Encounters with enemy aircraft? Did you ever get sort of shot at by other, by German aircraft?
SJR: Shot at?
DM: By Germans. Aircraft.
SJR: Oh yes, yes.
DM: By the Luftwaffe.
SJR: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but eh well we got shot one time and the rear gunner and the bomb aimer were both killed with this fighter attack. But eh the rest of us were a bit higher so the bomb aimer was there and the rear gunner was on the same level so he came in and let fly and took out these two lads. So eh we brought them back, you know, we got back and eh two lads dead. But it was all the way you lived those days, you know. So eh all sorts of unexpected things could happen [chuckles].
Other: What was it like when you took off? Your Squadron took off?
SJR: Yeah. Oh eh just taxied round got the go to go and eh off we went.
Other: Did, were they all seeing you off. All the ground crew?
SJR: Oh yeah, yeah. We had quite a little group wave us off. WAAFS and eh specially nice to see the WAAFS out there. [chuckles] And eh it was always a bit of a night. They’d line up at the end of the runway and give you a wave as you went off. So eh.
Other: What was your relationship like with the WAAFS? Did they have much to do with you?
SJR: Oh, not a lot. Only in the mess you know.
Other: Yeah.
SJR: Eh that’s em
Other: But they didn’t get over friendly, did they? You told me.
SJR: Oh no, no. Aircrew no.
Other: Why was that?
SJR: Here today and gone tomorrow. Type of thing you know.
Other: Yeah. So they didn’t want to get involved?
SJR: Yeah, well they would have a late date or something and the bloke would get shot down or something. So they weren’t that with aircrew.
Other: Yeah.
SJR: Too unreliable. [chuckles]
Other: Yeah.
DM: So when you lost your two crew members, you obviously had to have two new ones or did you just get sort of different people every time after that?
SJR: Oh no. Crews were fixed all the time. Yeah. Oh yeah. Cos you knew each other and you could rely on each other so you didn’t have, you generally had the same aircrew. Cos you knew who they were and they knew who you were. So eh you didn’t want to go on another crew.
DM: And were all your crew NCO’s or was anyone an officer?
SJR: Were what?
DM: Were all your crew NCO’s or was anyone an officer?
SJR: Oh no. NCO’s and officers you know. Our eh, our pilot was an officer.
DM: But you mixed in off the base I guess, when you went out?
SJR: Oh yes, of course, yeah. Blimey, yeah. Well you’re all in the same bracket so that’s you know. So there was no, ‘I’m an officer and you’re a NCO’ or anything [chuckles]. No.
DM: Now you said you flew twenty missions?
SJR: Yeah.
DM: What happened on the twentieth mission?
SJR: I got shot down.
DM: Was that the one when you got shot down?
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
DM: Tell me about that.
SJR: Eh?
DM: Tell me about that. What happened?
SJR: Eh, well we got hit by flak and a fighter, a fighter, got us.
Other: What happened when you took off? Did you, you had a problem with one of the engines didn’t you?
SJR: Oh, yeah, yeah. We actually got to the target a bit late. So of course they were already
Other: But did, did, Bob Petty, he radioed back to everyone to say that we’ve got an oil leak? Didn’t he?
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
Other: And what did he say?
SJR: Eh, told us to carry on I suppose.
Other: Well, did, did, but he asked you if you wanted to carry on or not. Didn’t he?
SJR: Yeah, yeah, and we, yeah that’s right. Yeah. He said do you want to carry on and we thought well we’ve got all ready crewed up, you know? Ready and so on so we said ‘Yeah, let’s go’. So we got over the target that bit later than the first wave. So eh we should really have turned back. We shouldn’t really have gone, but em once you get all ready you go. So eh, that was it.
DM: So you got hit by the, by this aircraft and so then I assume that the pilot gave the order to bail out? Did he? Is that what happened?
SJR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, he didn’t need to tell us about that [chuckles]. We bailed out and hoped for the best.
Other: What did you do when you were hit? Did you go back and check to see if the gunner was okay?
SJR: Well, no, not really, I mean.
Other: You were the second to last one out, weren’t you? There was only Bob Petty came out after you?
SJR: Yeah, yeah. No, no. It’s every man to get out and that was it.
Other: Right.
SJR: You all looked after yourself. So you didn’t go round asking [chuckles]
Other: No.
SJR: Or anything, so when you got the word to bail out that’s what you did.
Other: So three or four others got out in front of you, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah. Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Other: And the plane was getting low.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And you were trying to get through the escape hatch. Didn’t you?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: Didn’t you get stuck?
SJR: Yeah, yeah. Stuck a bit, yeah.
Other: And then what happened?
SJR: Oh I got clear, dropped out. But we were sort of losing height all the time. So eh.
Other: And, did, you got searchlights put on you. Didn’t you?
SJR: Oh yeah, yeah. Searchlights. So I was lucky they didn’t eh [chuckles].
Other: And you tried, you moved the parachute [unclear]
SJR: Yeah, I tried to get out the beam but couldn’t get out.
Other: They were shooting at you weren’t they?
SJR: I think that’s what they were. That’s what I was afraid of. [laughter] But as far as I know. Otherwise they would have hit us, you know, dangling down like that. Yeah. And of course when you’re not sure where you’re gonna land when you, when you hit the ground. You know?
Other: Where did you land?
SJR: Oh, I can’t remember now.
DM: Is it
Other: Sorry. You landed in someone’s back garden. In a tree, didn’t you?
SJR: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.
Other: And the house owner?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: He came out didn’t he?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: With a pistol?
SJR: Pardon?
Other: He came out and pointed a pistol at you didn’t he?
SJR: Yeah. That’s right, yeah.
Other: And how did you feel?
SJR: Eh.
Other: Cos he was shaking. He was shaking, wasn’t he and you got worried.
SJR: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh well. All part of life those days [chuckles].
DM: So who, who, after you landed in this German chap’s garden? He came with a pistol. It sounds though he was more worried about it than you were. So did he arrest you or did the police or the army come?
SJR: Oh. What? When I was
DM: When you landed in his garden.
SJR: When I landed [mumbles] Oh, I can’t think now. [pause] It must be the airforce.
Other: The police?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.The police.
Other: Wasn’t it the police who came and arrested you?
SJR: Yeah. The police, yeah, yeah.
Other: They rounded you up with the others?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: So did all of your crew get out safely? Or?
SJR: Em. Let me think, now. [pauses] It’s all a long time ago.
DM: Oh, yes. I know, yeah.
Other: The other, the crew members who got out before you ended up in Berlin centre, didn’t, the centre of Berlin, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And you heard nothing more from them.
SJR: No. Well it’s some that did land there were lynched. So eh
DM: So it could’ve happened to your
SJR: Yeah. So.
Other: And you, you and the pilot, because you were the last out, you landed in the suburbs, didn’t you?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah. Out of Berlin, yeah. So we were a bit of a curiosity rather in the suburbs [laughs] [mumbles] rather than landing in Berlin.
Other: What did they call you? [pause] They called you something, didn’t they?
SJR: [unclear] they called us. Or something like that, I don’t know.
DM: That’s right, yeah. So, you and Bob were reunited when you were taken prisoner? You were sort of gathered up together were you?
SJR: Eh. No, I don’t, no we weren’t eh. I forget that we were split up I think.
Other: You were put in a
SJR: Eh?
Other: You were put in a, in a police station, weren’t you?
SJR: In a what?
Other: In a police station?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: With others? With people who were sheltering from the air raid?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: And what happened? You had some cigarettes on you didn’t you?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And what did you do?
SJR: [pause] Oh, I forget now.
Other: You offered, you offered some cigarettes.
SJR: Oh, that’s it, yeah.
Other: You gave cigarettes didn’t you?
SJR: Yeah, yeah. They were gratefully accepted too. [chuckles] All this a long time ago.
Other: And then what happened? The soldiers came along didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And they marched you out.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: Across a field, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah, that’s right. I thought I was gonna be shot. [pause]
Other: What happened? Did he, he kicked you, didn’t he?
SJR: Eh?
Other: One of the soldiers kicked you?
SJR: Kicked me?
Other: Yeah.
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: And what did you do?
SJR: Eh?
Other: And what did you do?
SJR: Kick him back? [chuckles] No. [laughs] Didn’t do anything. [laughs]
Other: Didn’t you push him? Push him away?
SJR: Yeah. Pushed. Yeah, yeah. Pushed him. All this was all, you know, all, everything happening at once type of thing. All a jumble.
DM: Can you remember if they interrogated you? Did they sort of
SJR: Eh?
DM: Did they interrogate you? Did they try and get you to tell ‘em all your secrets?
SJR: Oh yes, yes. Oh, they interrogated you. Yeah. But eh you know they used to take you in and put you in solitary and then take you in for interrogation. But eh they used to advise us before we went not to try and be clever. Just to say nothing. Not try and put them off or anything. You know. Just to eh don’t tell ‘em anything. Oh yeah.
Other: What did you say? What did you tell them?
SJR: Nicht verstase [sic] [chuckles]. Don’t understand.
DM: They didn’t, they didn’t question you in English? Or did they?
SJR: Oh yes.
DM: They did?
SJR: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Other: What were your conditions? Cos they kept you in a cell, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah, yeah. In a cell.
Other: And what was it like in this cell?
SJR: Oh, dead boring. It was just a cell, you know.
Other: With a light on all the time?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: What was it? Was it hot or cold?
SJR: Oh, just normal. So eh [pause]
Other: And they pulled you out all the time. Didn’t they? They kept pulling you out.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: When you were asleep.
SJR: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Take you in for interrogation. Before we were shot down they used to say ‘Don’t try and be clever in interrogation’, you know. Just say, you know, nothing. But don’t try and be clever to put ‘em off or anything. Cos they’ll soon eh catch you out.
DM: So eventually, you obviously ended up in a P.O.W. camp?
SJR: Eh?
DM: You ended up in a P.O.W. camp?
SJR: Yes. Prisoner of war.
Other: How did you get there?
SJR: Eh, train.
Other: And what was it? You had a, did you have a nice comfortable seat?
SJR: Oh, yeah.
Other: You did?
SJR: No, no. And I can’t remember
DM: Was it a cattle truck or something you went in, or was it a proper carriage?
SJR: Eh?
DM: Did you go in a cattle truck or something, or were you actually in a carriage with six.
SJR: Oh, in a carriage. No, no. They didn’t put us in a cattle truck. [chuckles]
Other: When they marched you there, they had the, they marched you down the middle of the road, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And all the locals would come out.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And what were they doing?
SJR: Oh, just having a look.
Other: Weren’t they kicking you and punching you?
SJR: Oh no.
Other: No?
SJR: No. No.
Other: I thought they kept you in the middle of the road?
SJR: Oh yeah.
Other: Away from everyone.
SJR: Yeah. Oh yeah. But no there was, they just came out and had a look.
Other: Right [pause]
SJR: So many things happened in those days, it’s a job to recall it all. You know?
DM: What time of year was it when you got shot down? Can you remember?
SJR: Em, May.
DM: Right.
Other: No, it wasn’t.
DM: No?
SJR: Eh? When was it?
Other: It was coming up to Christmas, wasn’t it?
SJR: Was it? Oh.
Other: And you were upset because you had been feeding a turkey?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: You told me.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And that was one of your thoughts. You thought, ‘I’m gonna miss Christmas and I’ve been fattening this turkey, and I’m gonna miss it.’
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
Other: Wasn’t it?
SJR: Yeah. It was just before Christmas.
Other: Yeah.
DM: So I imagine it was pretty cold and bleak at the P.O.W camp, was it?
SJR: Oh yes, yeah. They didn’t look after you too well, you know. Didn’t make it too comfortable [chuckles]. But eh it was just a prisoner of war camp. I could’ve gone either German or Russian. But those days Russians were a bit unknown quality. You didn’t quite know what they were like, so I thought, well, we’ve got an agreement with Germany about P.O.W’s so eh I went with the Germans, and not with the Russians. Because they held some back, bargaining and all this business for years later. But eh, oh well. That’s what war’s like [chuckles]. Nobody wins huh.
DM: Did you make any friends in the camp? Anyone in particular?
SJR: Oh, in the prison camp?
DM: Yeah.
SJR: Oh, I suppose yes. One particular bloke I was friendly with. He cleared off to South Africa when we got back. And eh, oh you get to know some blokes and eh you chat about your civilian life, or where you lived and this sort of thing. So eh anything to pass the time.
Other: There were some Russians in your camp, weren’t there?
SJR: Yeah. [pause]
Other: Weren’t, they were starving, weren’t they?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. They didn’t feed, overfeed them.
Other: What did they do?
SJR: Eh [pause]
Other: Because you were starving, weren’t you?
SJR: Pardon?
Other: You were starving. And you had big pots of food put outside and you, you in your hut,
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And everyone in your hut [unclear] that. Didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
Other: But what happened when you put the empty pot outside? [pause] Didn’t the Russians come round?
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
Other: And try and find
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
Other: All the scrapings.
SJR: Well, they didn’t look after them at all. The Russians. All this a long time ago.
DM: Do you remember the Red Cross parcels?
SJR: Red Cross parcels? Oh, yeah. A godsend they were. Oh yeah, yeah. Blimey, they were. When parcels came in and you could barter with parcels, you know. Oh, they were an absolute godsend.
DM: Did you barter between yourselves, or did you barter with the guards?
SJR: Em, well between ourselves really if [pause]
DM: What sort of things do you remember being in the parcels that you enjoyed the most?
SJR: In the food parcels?
DM: Yeah.
SJR: Well I enjoyed all of it [chuckles]. I suppose, porridge, porridge oats and things like that, that were easy to prepare.
Other: You have a funny story about your Christmas dinner in the prisoner of war camp. Don’t you?
SJR: What was that?
Other: You, you put, you boiled up a huge pot of water and you put your tins of food in it.
SJR: Oh yeah.
Other: And what happened?
SJR: They burst didn’t they? Yeah.
Other: The labels?
SJR: Eh?
Other: The labels.
SJR: Yeah, yeah. That’s right, yeah. Yeah, the labels. All, yeah I remember now, the labels all came off so we [laughter]. So you’d written the name on the label [laughter] so at the finish we had all these tins, no labels and everything, so they just tossed them round and if you were lucky you got something good [laughter]
DM: Like a lucky dip!
SJR: Yeah. Otherwise that was it. Yeah, yeah.
Other: Otherwise you got a tin of brussel sprouts! [laughter]
SJR: Yeah, yeah but I mean daft things. It was stupid, wasn’t it? Putting them in there. Of course the labels are gonna come off. [laughter] Oh dear, oh dear.
DM: Do you remember, while you were in the camp, do you remember anybody making any escape attempts?
SJR: Making eh?
DM: Escape attempts from your camp?
SJR: Yeah. Oh yeah, You could get out of the camp all right but you couldn’t get out of Germany. So it was a bit of a waste of time. If you could’ve gotten out of Germany, but eh [slight pause] several tried it but just weren’t, you know, something to do, but they eh they all came back. They caught them you know. So there was, you couldn’t really get out.
Other: And what happened to the rest of you in the camp? [pause] Did the Germans wanted to dissuade you from trying to escape?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: So what did they do?
SJR: What was it now? [pause] Oh can’t
Other: They would keep you standing, wouldn’t they? On parade out there?
SJR: Oh yeah, yeah.
Other: For hours and hours.
SJR: Yeah, keep you yeah. That’s right, yeah. Keep you hanging about out there. So some blokes were collapsing, you know. [pause] All general fun [chuckles].
Other: There were some Americans in your camp, wasn’t there?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And what were they saying to you?
SJR: Oh, something about it wasn’t like that in America.
Other: Didn’t, didn’t, weren’t they saying ‘Last week I was in ‘
SJR: Times
Other: Times Square.
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: And they’d been arrested? Captured and they hadn’t fired a shot?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah. Straight in and straight out. Yeah. And hadn’t done anything.
Other: And what happened to one of them who wouldn’t wash?
SJR: Oh, they washed him.
Other: How did they do that?
SJR: Oh, stripped him off. Hosepipe on him.
Other: With a broom?
SJR: Yeah. He wouldn’t wash and keep himself clean in the camp, you know? You’ve all gotta look after yourselves and he wouldn’t do it, so they said ‘All right we’ll do it for you.’ Had him out, stripped him off, put the hosepipe on ‘im and got the brooms [chuckles] and eh, well you couldn’t ‘ave somebody like that walking about not washing or kind of thing or anything. So eh nobody else tried it after that, I don’t think. [laughter] Well some of these Americans were pretty primitive, you know. I mean, fancy a bloke not wanting to bath or wash, you know. It’s a bit primitive, isn’t it? So eh that was the only way they did it and eh [chuckles] so we didn’t get any more. Yeah.
Other: Was there one of your fellow prisoner there? Didn’t he try to take some food?
SJR: Take what?
Other: Pinch some food?
SJR: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yes. They gave him a hammerin’, beat him up.
Other: Did, they didn’t hand him over to the Germans?
SJR: Oh no. No.They wouldn’t do that. They dealt with him themselves and eh they got him in a ring and beat him. So nobody else tried it. [chuckles] Well you dealt with it yourselves, you didn’t want to get the Germans involved.
Other: No.
SJR: Somebody pinching food and so on. So eh it was dealt with by the prisoners. They dealt with him and taught him a lesson.
DM: Did you get letters from home? Did they get some letters through to you?
SJR: Eh, yes, yeah. Yeah, you could write home and eh far as I can remember. [pause]
Other: Was there another incident? You were playing football, one day, and the ball went over the inner, the inner fence?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: So there was an inner fence and an outer fence?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And the ball went in, into this gap?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And what happened there?
SJR: Eh [pause]
Other: There was a sentry, a German sentry saw ‘im going to get the ball didn’t he?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: And what did he do?
SJR: I forget now what [mumbles] [pauses]
Other: He shot him.
SJR: Eh?
Other: He shot him didn’t he? He shot him. He killed him.
SJR: Yeah. Oh that’s right. Yeah, yeah. There was a bit of an uproar in the camp, you know. But that was it. He was in a forbidden area, so he just eh shot him. So he wouldn’t get into trouble.
DM: Did you stay in the same camp all the time, or did they move you somewhere else later on?
SJR: No, no. Was in camps most of the time. And em [pause] course when the Russians came everything sort of burst open, you know.
DM: So the Russians liberated the camp? It was the Russians who got there first?
SJR: Yeah. The Russians, yeah. Oh dear. The camp poured out. [chuckles] Oh dear.
Other: What did the Russians say to you?
SJR: Oh, I can’t
Other: Didn’t they advise you to stay put for a while?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah I think that was it, yeah.
Other: But you and your mate Jock?
SJR: Oh we decided to walk back. Yeah, yeah. That’s right, yeah. And they told us to stay there, but we decided to walk from there to the other side of Poland and get back to our lines, you know. So that’s what we did.
Other: Didn’t the Russian prisoners get hold of one of the Gestapo?
SJR: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Other: And what happened to him?
SJR: Oh well [mumbles] All sorts happened to them. Oh it was all very grim.
DM: When you left the camp, you and Jock, and you were walking back to try and get to our lines, how did you survive? Did you take food with you or did you get food from people on the way?
SJR: Whatever we could get on the way back. Yeah.
Other 2: [quiet voice] Is there something about a chicken? [louder] Did you try to kill a chicken once?
SJR: Pardon?
Other 2: Didn’t you try to kill a chicken? On your way back, you told us?
SJR: Oh yeah. Tried to kill a chicken, yes. Quite right. Tried to kill a, [chuckles]. I said ‘I’ll have a go at it,’ and got this chicken the way my father used to do it, dead easy, you know, and I [unclear] this bloody chicken and eh [chuckles] Oh dear, oh dear.
Other 2: And did you manage to kill it in the end?
SJR: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh dear. My father used to do ‘em just like that, you know. [mumbles] I said I’ll do it [laughter]
Other: When you were walking back the Germans kept coming out to you, didn’t they? German civilians?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And, and surrendering, weren’t they?
SJR: Oh yes, yeah and all that sort of thing. As if we were going to do anything.
Other: Why were they doing that?
SJR: Well, they thought we might eh get our own back on them or something. [chuckles]
Other: No. No. The, the
SJR: Eh?
Other: The Germans, the civilians wanted to give themselves up to you, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. To the English or Americans, the Americans. Yeah. They wanted to be our prisoners and not Russian.
Other: Why was that?
SJR: Eh, well Germany and Russia didn’t get on so they’d rather be prisoners with us than with the Russians in those days. [pause]
Other: And then one night, didn’t you, you and Jock, you found a house?
SJR: Eh?
Other: You found a house? You thought you could go in there and perhaps sleep. Spend the night sleeping in the house?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And there was a woman there with two daughters, wasn’t there?
SJR: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Other: And what did she say?
SJR: Eh, ‘Oh, I’m sorry about this. There’s three of you and only two girls,’ or something.
Other: And what did you say?
SJR: Oh. [chuckles] We weren’t interested.
Other: Yeah. And why was that?
SJR: Cos we were too exhausted and hungry [laughter].
Other: Yeah. And running alive with lice you told me.
SJR: Yeah and so
Other: And you weighed about six and a half stone.
SJR: Yeah, that’s right, cos they weighed me when I [unclear].
Other: You weren’t capable of doing anything.
SJR: Eh?
Other: You weren’t capable of doing anything.
SJR: Oh. Oh no.
Other: And then what happened in the morning? You were sitting in the kitchen?
SJR: Oh, I don’t know about that.
Other: Didn’t the door burst open? The door burst open, didn’t it?
SJR: Yeah, yeah.
Other: And who, who was there?
SJR: Oh I can’t remember.
Other: Some Russians, weren’t they?
SJR: Oh Russians, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Russians.
Other: And they said to you, ‘Are you British.’ And what happened?
SJR: Oh, I can’t remember now.
Other: Didn’t they, they just closed the door and went away?
SJR: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was a long time ago all this.
Other: You probably saved, just your presence there, saved the women?
SJR: Oh yeah. We certainly did. Yeah. Yeah. Oh everything was so wide open, you know.
Other 2: What was that? Can you remember those? Where you go those from?
SJR: [pause] Oh yeah. Yeah.
Other: What is it?
SJR: German eh, German, it’s German money, isn’t it?
Other: Yeah.
SJR: [pause] Yeah. [pause]
Other 2: You can’t remember where you got it from?
SJR: No.
Other 2: Oh.
SJR: Took it off somebody else I expect [laughs]. No I can’t remember.
Other 2: Yeah.
SJR: Oh, I brought this back did I?
Other 2: Yeah. Those were the things we found and we found this as well.
SJR: [pause] Oh my [pause] Yeah.
DM: So, what’s that, Sid?
SJR: Oh, they’re identification.
DM: From the camp or from the airforce?
SJR: Oh, from the camp.
DM: Yeah.
SJR: If anything happened to you, all they’d do was break off, break it across. That would stay fixed round your neck and they’d hand that in as another one dead. So that’s why it’s
DM: So, it’s perforated in the middle and they broke it in half?
SJR: Yeah, that’s it. They’d break it, put one with you and one to record it.
Other 2: We found all sorts of things.
SJR: [unclear]
Other 2: We found that. [pause]
SJR: Oh, what’s this? Where’s me glasses? [pause] One, two, eight, four, six, double two. That’s me.
DM: So what is that?
SJR: Eh. Eh.
DM: So what is it, Sid? What is it?
SJR: Eh. Let’s have a look?
DM: Oh right. Permission to be absent from duty. [laughter]
SJR: Eh?
DM: Permission to be absent from duty [laughter]
SJR: Oh! [laughter]
Other 2: Where were you off to?
SJR: Eh?
Other 2: Did you go anywhere nice?
SJR: [laughter]
DM: Did you have a girlfriend when you were?
SJR: No. No.
Other 2: Why not?
SJR: Well, moving around a bit and so on. So, and of course, the girls weren’t keen on us. Oh, yes. Royal Air Force.
Other: Didn’t a member of your crew get married?
SJR: Eh, yeah.
Other: And what did you say to ‘im?
SJR: Eh?
Other: And what did you say to ‘im?
SJR: Oh, I can’t remember now.
Other: Didn’t you say ‘Don’t get married.’ To wait until the war had finished.?
SJR: Oh yeah. Yeah. He got married during the war.
Other: Yeah.
SJR: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: And you said?
SJR: Yeah. We said to wait until the end of the war. But eh he came in and said he’d got married and that was it.
Other 2: Who was that? [pause]
SJR: Oh, dunno. [pause] George Lancaster, probably a Flight Engineer. George Lumsden. Hello George. [chuckles]
Other 2: Was he on your plane when you got hit?
SJR: Eh?
Other: Was he on your plane when you got hit?
SJR: Oh, I expect so.
Other: Can’t remember what happened to him?
SJR: No. Flight Engineer.
Other 2: And what about him? [pause]
SJR: Eddie Smith, rear gunner.
DM: Was he the rear gunner who got killed?
SJR: Eh, yeah. Eddie Smith. That was him.
Other: Didn’t, didn’t, every time you took off, didn’t he have a little phrase? Didn’t he say something?
SJR: Eh, something about the tail up, or something.
Other: And then on your last trip out there he didn’t say it did he?
SJR: No.
Other 2: Oh lord!
SJR: Poor devil got killed. Old Eddie. Nice lad. Rear Gunner. Killed, yeah. Second, third December, yeah. Yeah, yeah, just before Christmas.
Other: He said, he usually said, ‘Here we go lads,’.
SJR: Yeah, that’s it.
Other: As you came
SJR: When the tyre went up. He was a rear gunner.
Other: Yeah.
SJR: So when the tyres went up and he said, ‘Here we go.’
Other: And then this particular, your last flight
SJR: Yeah.
Other: For some reason he didn’t say it.
SJR: No, he didn’t say anything. Yeah. Weird really. A lot of peculiar things happened. Poor old Eddie. Yes, second, third December. Oh dear, yeah. Yeah, we brought him back and the bomb aimer. We had two dead that night. [pause]
Other 2: We found those as well. I don’t know who that handsome chap is? [laughter]
SJR: Oh dear, yeah. [pause] Yeah.
Other 2: What happened with them? Was that when, did the Germans take those pictures?
SJR: Yeah.
Other 2: Could you remember that?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Who are they?
Other 2: It’s Dad.
Other: It’s you.
DM: It’s you. Your Kriege pictures.
SJR: Yeah. It must have been.
Other 2: Cos you look different there. Was that when you’d just got captured or? You look all clean. Had you just been captured then?
SJR: Yeah. Must have been.
Other 2: And it’s got your RAF number on, hasn’t it?
SJR: Yeah.
Other 2: But then this one has got a different number. What’s that number on there?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah. These were found and with the Germans had them.
Other 2: Oh right.
DM: So you found those after the camp had been liberated, did you?
SJR: Yeah. Oh yes. Yes.
Other: You don’t look so happy there.
SJR: No. [laughter] No. Been shot down and beard and everything. Yeah. Identification yeah, sort of thing. Oh dear. Oh dear. Those were the days. [laughter] Royal Air Force. [pause]
DM: So you, you and Jock headed off through the German countryside, tried to kill a chicken, em and when did you make contact? Did you make contact with the Americans or with the British?
SJR: Em, Americans.
DM: What happened then, when you, when you
SJR: Oh they were okay. Yeah. Looked after us and eh all the rest of it you know. Got us back, you know. They were okay.
DM: How did you get back to Britain? To England?
SJR: How’d I get back?
DM: To England?
SJR: Oh, flew back, I expect. I can’t remember. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Flew back.
DM: Did you ever think of staying in the Air Force after the war, or couldn’t you wait to leave?
SJR: Eh. I did have thoughts about staying. I was a Warrant Officer. So I had a rank and so on and it was a toss up, you know. In some ways after, I wish I’d have stayed in. Cos I had a rank and all the rest of it.
DM: So, before you went in the Air Force, you were working in the Arsenal you said?
SJR: Yeah.
DM: So what, what job did you take on when you came out of the Air Force?
SJR: Eh, I, in a drawing office. In the central office.
DM: What sort of, what did the company make? What were you drawing? What?
SJR: Copying and that sort of. I can’t remember exactly.
Other 2: That was in the Arsenal, wasn’t it?
SJR: Yeah. In the Arsenal.
DM: So you went back into the Arsenal after?
SJR: Yeah. Yeah. I went back, back in the Arsenal. And eh so I could have stayed in the Air Force, in fact. I was, in fact, I wished later I had carried on in the Air Force. But eh, you get the idea of getting back into civilian life again. And eh [pause]
Other: What did they do to get you, what did the authorities, what did the Government do to get you back into civilian life?
SJR: Oh, they put us on our er, our sort of leave of course, you know, to get us, you know, introduced back into civvy life again.
Other: They took you to some places, didn’t they?
SJR: Yeah, oh yeah. Took us around. Oh we were, we were well looked after when we got back from Germany. Yeah, looked after us quite well. Oh dear, so many things happened those days that eh it’s hard to recall it all. [pause]
Other: And what happened when you, cos you left the, the Arsenal after that, didn’t you?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And what did you do then? [pause] Insurance?
SJR: Yeah. Insurance. Yeah, yeah.
Other: Became an insurance agent.
SJR: Yeah. Oh yes, that’s yeah.
Other: And you did, did that throughout your working life, didn’t you?
SJR: What?
Other: Insurance?
SJR: Yeah, yeah. Oh these are the old badges [laughs]. Signaller. Oh dear, oh dear. Warrant Officer. Good rank, Warrant Officer. Nobody interfered with you. You do more than some of these young officers. So they didn’t like interfering with you. [chuckles] Cos you do a bloomin’ sight more than they did. Oh, that’s a dart medal I won.
Other 2: Where did you win that?
SJR: Eh?
Other 2: Where did you win that?
SJR: I think that was in Germany. Yeah [chuckles]
Other: So you had like competitions and things in the camp?
SJR: Eh, yeah.
Other 2: Did you play sport as well?
SJR: Eh, yeah. Oh dear. Different life altogether.
Other 2: It is. [pause] We found that picture of you and two friends. You haven’t put names on the back.
SJR: Oh yeah.
Other 2: Do you know who they are? [pause] They haven’t got anything on the back. Eh? [pause]
SJR: No, no. [pause]
DM: Have you ever been back? To Germany?
SJR: Eh, no I don’t think so. Well I can’t remember. No, I haven’t. No.
DM: What about to Fiskerton? Have you been back there?
SJR: Where?
DM: Fiskerton? Where you were based. Did you, did you, have you visited back the airfield?
SJR: Yeah. Oh, I’ve been back there. Yeah.
DM: Good memories?
SJR: Eh?
DM: Did you have good memories:
SJR: Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. As long as you were there, I was aircrew, so as long as you were there for flying, you virtually did as you liked, you know. So as long as you were there when there was something on, there was ops on, you had to be there. But the rest of the time they weren’t too bothered, you know.
Other: We went to Fiskerton, didn’t we? A couple of years ago.
SJR: What?
Other: We went to Fiskerton.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: A couple of years ago.
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And there’s a memorial there, isn’t there?
SJR: Yeah.
Other: And you looked out and you saw the ground where the air drums were.
SJR: Yeah. Yeah. Fiskerton. Yeah. Midlands.
Other 2: I bet you went in the pub.
SJR: Eh, yeah. I had [unclear] in the pub there.
DM: That’s you, isn’t it? On your return visit.
Other: That’s you at the memorial. [pause]
SJR: That’s me?
Other 2: It is. [laughter]
Other 2: I took the picture.
DM: It is. And your favourite son. [laughter]
SJR: Oh, yeah. These are [mumbles] RAF Fiskerton on the occasion of [unclear] ninety-six. Oh good God. [laughter] [pause] German P.O.W. photographs of Sydney Richards. Ah.
DM: That’s em.
SJR: Oh that’s em look at that yeah [mumbles]
Other 2: So young.
SJR: Yeah. Look at that there. [laughter] God. [laughter] Yes, a smart lad. [chuckles]
Other 2: [unclear]
SJR: [mumbles] That was a long flight.
Other: Yeah.
DM: How did you feel about bombing the Germans?
SJR: Eh, well didn’t have any feelings really. We were at war and they sent us to mostly were military, you know. We weren’t bombing civilians populations. No, the military, the Rhine, Rhine Valley all along there. All factories. When we were bombing them. But we weren’t actually out to bomb, we had a couple of trips to Berlin, I suppose, which was just to let them know. But eh otherwise it was all just military targets, factories and so on. So anything to disrupt them. So eh.
Other: And it’s war, isn’t it?
SJR: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Put their factories out of action. So eh and the rest of the time we were out in Lincoln, living it up. [laughter]
Other: Living it up. Yes.
SJR: Oh dear. Well they did need a [unclear] at all, you know.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Sidney James Richards
Creator
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David Meanwell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARichardsSJ170322, PRichardsSJ1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:05:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Sydney James Richards was born in Greenwich, London and was working in a drawing office in the Arsenal before joining the Royal Air Force. He was originally intending to join the Navy but changed his mind as he decided he preferred aircrew. He did his training near Nottingham as a Wireless Operator Rear Gunner and was stationed at RAF Fiskerton. He became a Warrant Officer and flew twenty operations before having to bail out over the suburbs of Berlin on his twentieth. He was captured with the pilot of his crew, Bob Petty, and became a Prisoner of War. Two of his crew were killed on an earlier operation when their aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire whilst flying over the Ruhr. He was liberated by the Russians and he walked out of the camp with his friend and they walked until the found Americans who helped them get back to England. When he left the Royal Air Force he went back to his previous employment and subsequently became an Insurance agent which he continued to do for the rest of his working life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
49 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
prisoner of war
RAF Fiskerton
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1103/11562/ARogersLC160822.1.mp3
ad21d284dbbdd015f55a5a200970cce9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rogers, Lawrence Clark
L C Rogers
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Lawrence Clark Rogers (1063761, 189969 Royal Air Force). He completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rogers, LC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DB: Right. I’m interviewing Lawrence Clark Rogers at xxx in Huddersfield, and it’s the 22nd of August 2016 at 8.30pm and we’re in the interviewee’s home. Lawrence, could you tell me a little bit about your life and how it, how it is with the RAF?
LR: Yes. I think I can. If I can remember I will tell you of course. But schooldays, after schooldays. Well school, I went to school and I wasn’t over keen on school at all, but I decided, at the age of seventeen, that I’d like to — I knew that I would be called up. So, I didn’t want to go in the Navy, I can’t swim, I didn’t want to go in the Army, so I thought, right, I’ll go in the Air Force, so, I went down to the Drill Hall in Huddersfield and volunteered. I told my Father, I told my Mother, who wasn’t at all pleased, but she said she would, alright in the Air Force as long as I didn’t fly, which I promised. And from there on, I went to East Kirby – West Kirby, sorry, near Liverpool, and I was there for the training. I remembered the time when we first joined. When we first entered there, we got a good meal, and then the day after, we were signed in and the sergeant who took us out said, ‘Now, you’ve not got a name. You’ve got a ‘B’ number’. So, we did quite a lot of drill there, on the parade ground, the aircraft engine in the distance was going so all the shouting, this, that and the other. And from there I went to Wigtown in Scotland where I was an instructor. Oh no, sorry, I went first of all because I signed up for a wireless operator when I volunteered. They asked for volunteers, we put our names up, our hands up, and we went to Blackpool for the wireless. Did our drill on the bottom prom, all the holidaymakers on the top prom watching us. And then we went to Yatesbury, which was the station for aircrew and we did the radio wireless training there, and then from there, I got posted to Wigtown. No, I think I got that out of context a little. Wigtown in Scotland, I was there, posted there as an instructor on wireless operation. This went quite normally. It was a nice station. They provided us with a bicycle and this, that and the other, food wasn’t too bad, and we flew in Ansons. And on one trip, which the, it was usually from Wigtown down to Anglesey and back, all the time. Most of the time they sent us up north a bit and we got a recall. It was a bad day and we got a recall and he asked the navigator, pupil navigator where we were, and he didn’t seem to know. So the pilot said, ‘I’ll fly five minutes west and then come down over the sea’. We flew five minutes west, we didn’t come down in the sea. We crashed in the Kingsborough fleet, I think they called it Hibble Hill – the place where we crashed. We were there quite for a while in cloud, probably twenty four hours, something like that, till the clouds broke in the morning and I was flashing, there was aircraft about. I was flashing my aldis lamp and I couldn’t, I couldn’t transmit but I could receive. It had been damaged in the aircraft. If we’d have missed this part where we should have, where we did crash then missed that, we’d have gone nose first into higher mountains just further on. But anyhow, that didn’t happen. The group captain came over in his Tiger Moth and dropped us a big parcel of food which was, I don’t know, a cheese sandwich in — it was supposed to be, I don’t know how thick. Two big slices of bread, it was terrible. Anyhow, later on, after a few hours, they climbed up the, and brought us down. We didn’t get survivor’s leave, I don’t know why, but we didn’t. Anyhow, I was stationed there for two years actually, and we tried our best to get down to, to get on the squadron. Eventually we were sent to OUT, I think it was Chedburgh, and from there, we were posted to 218 Gold Coast Squadron, Woolfox Lodge. I did about eight or nine, about nine operations from there, and then we lost our pilot. He had an accident. Not a flying accident but an accident on the road, and we were transferred to 75 New Zealand squadron. We were approached by a squadron leader, we were given a new pilot, Squadron Leader Rogers, a New Zealand pilot, and he was in charge of, I don’t know, I think it was A group pilot. We got all the dirty jobs, of course. used to pass us, ‘You, light the fire’, and this, that and those things, didn’t want to delegate too much. And we did the rest of the operations there. I did thirty two, if I remember correctly, operations, because I had to do two operations with another pilot who hadn’t got a wireless operator. And on the thirtieth operation of mine, I could have packed in, but the crew wanted me to carry on, and do the, do up to the thirtieth, so I did two more, of course, which I did thirty two. From there, we were posted down to London, to go overseas. They messed us around quite a bit. At first, we were going to sail from there, and then they said we were going to fly from there, I can’t remember the place where we flew from, but we flew from there to Karachi. I was stationed in Karachi for quite a while. There was a, what was the first [pause], what it was? I forget what it was – the first job I was doing, but the second job was when we were posted to Singapore just before the capitulation by the Japanese. We went by landing craft, which was going back to Australia, and we landed in Singapore at roughly, on the same day as the capitulation came up. And I was accommodation officer for one of the forward, I went over in a landing craft that was going back with twenty four drivers and escorts, doing the chapatis on the desk — on the deck and things like that. I met a good friend from Pocklington, I’ve forgotten his name now, oh dear. Anyhow, we were together in India all the time, and I got, I wasn’t there too long actually. We sailed back to England, I don’t remember [pause], if I remember correctly, it was after, after the capitulation by Germany, and after VJ day as well. And whilst I was there in Singapore, it was arranged between Audrey and myself, my late wife, that we should get married, and we came back to Lichfield, and from there, I had two or three different intervals, because I didn’t want to go back to the job where I were, which was a travel agent. But we had two or three interviews, I had two or three different jobs, short jobs, two or three weeks jobs and then I got a job. A choice of jobs between textiles again and engineering, I decided to go in for engineering and I worked at the engineering firm, which was WC Holmes at that time, at Huddersfield, for thirty two years, I think it was, something like that anyhow. And I retired there at sixty four, voluntary redundancy. I’d been trying for redundancy since I was sixty, and at sixty four, I got it. A new director came up, which was very friendly with me, and he called me to the office. He said, ‘Lawrence, do you want to be made redundant?’ I said, ‘Yes please’. He said, ‘You’ll be first on the list tomorrow’, which I was. And since then, I’ve had a great retirement. I still drive at my age of ninety four, I still play bowls for the league, and I play snooker for the league also. And I’ve really enjoyed my retirement. I’ve been retired now thirty years, I think it is, and I’ve got four grandchildren and seven great-grandchildren and we’re quite a happy family. I, regretfully, I wanted my eldest son Graham, to go down and get, and go inside the Lancaster. My wife went with me down to Hendon years ago, and they allowed us to go in. I wrote to the people first, and they said, ‘Just make yourself known’, but when I went down to Hendon again, they wouldn’t. They wouldn’t let us go in the aircraft at all, but they did put a platform up, so that we could go up and look in through the pilot’s window, but we couldn’t see where the wireless operator was, of course. And just shortly after that, my son got very ill, had a major operation and he died some ten weeks ago, 10th of June this year, and I’ve now got two great-granddaughters that look after me. They do, they really look after me. I have a youngest son who now lives in Wales, I get invited down there, and he comes up here regularly, reasonably regularly anyhow, and we get — he’s a very good son. Just no distinguishing between the two really and I treated them both the same, and that’s about it. I’m still here and there we are.
[recording paused]
There was one incident whilst I was in the Air Force, that I was home on leave and I was on a squadron at the time, and I met my friend at the bus stop, as I was going back off leave. Kenneth Richardson, they called him, and he was, I didn’t know, but he’d joined the RAF, and he joined Bomber Command. And he went out, I don’t know whether it was his first or his second trip, but he never returned, and he’s never been found as far as I know, anyhow, and, you know, I would have liked to known what, you know, what happened to him. But it’s a long time ago and there we are.
[recording paused]
Yes, and another addition, that I was just looking at the photograph of my crew in front of the Lancaster. There was George, who was a Cockney from London, he was the oldest man of the crew. Next was Ron Brown, who was the flight engineer, and a very good friend of mine. Even after the war, we used to see each other and visit each other. Then there was Brian, who came from Birmingham. He was, well he was the joker of the family, I mean, at one time, we were in the station going back off leave, and he went up to this woman and asked her how she got her fur coat, but that’s beside the point. Harry was the pilot, Harry Sheldon, he lived in Nottingham. He was a nice fella. He moved to Canada and he’s since died, you know. Ron has also passed away, next one along is myself, and then there was Tom, Tom Brook, Tom [pause], I’ve forgotten his last name. He was the rear gunner and I don’t know roughly where, I’ve not heard from him. And then Don was the navigator, Don Whittaker. He has since passed away, of course, but he was a very nice fella. He lived very close to me and I used to visit, and during the war, he ran a small car, actually, and he used to pick me up at Stockport and take me down. We used to sleep halfway, and about 5 o’clock in the morning, there used to be a knock on the window. It was the land girls who went on duty, and they used to wake us up, to, so we could continue the journey. And that’s about it. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lawrence Clark Rogers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Denise Boneham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARogersLC160822
Format
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00:14:31 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Singapore
England--Rutland
England--Suffolk
England--Staffordshire
England--Lichfield
Pakistan
Pakistan--Karachi
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Rogers joined the Royal Air Force at 17, and trained to become a wireless operator. He served with 218 Squadron at RAF Woolfox Lodge and then with 75 Squadron, flying in both Ansons and Lancasters, He eventually completed 32 operations with Bomber Command. Lawrence tells of being stationed in Karachi and Singapore, the latter just before the Japanese capitulation. Reminisces of coming back to Lichfield for his wedding. Lawrence tells of his retirement from WC Holmes Engineering Firm - playing bowls, snooker and still driving at the age of 94. He talks about his family and his visit to Royal Air Force Museum at Hendon with his wife and son.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Language
A language of the resource
eng
218 Squadron
75 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crash
Lancaster
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Woolfox Lodge
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1112/11602/ASaundersR160616.2.mp3
b3356a853701a750fdd3e8f084c2f486
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunders, Ron
Ronald Saunders
R Saunders
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Ron Saunders (1923 - 2018, 1803753 Royal Air Force) and his obituary and memoir. He flew operations with 114 and 55 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Saunders, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DB: Todays’ recording is with Mr. Ron Saunders of 114 Squadron in Stowmarket on the 16th of June at 2pm.
RS: This is really just a brief history of my life which started off being born in a place called Ewhurst on the borders of Kent and Suffolk, Kent and I beg your pardon, Sussex and Kent, maybe you’ll correct that, it’s Sussex and Kent, not too far away from Bodiam Castle. At that time my father was working for the Gypsum Mines over in Mountfield, Sussex and the journey was a bit too much so they, eventually they built two houses in another village called Netherfield, to which we eventually moved. However for my short time there I don’t remember going to school at all unless it was at the end of my seventh year which was when I moved with them I think, but the only notable thing I can remember is that one evening, after I’d gone to bed, being woken up to look out of the window and all I could see was a black mass with lights on which turned out to be the airship 101 on its fateful voyage where it crashed in France. Apart from that, as regards an interest, even young of having an interest in the Royal Air Force or airplanes in general. I was always given toys with the someone would just balsa wood which had a notch on and you had a catapult and you just, every time it had the same effect, they all finished up on the ground after half a loop. Then they went on to stronger, elastic bands with propellers, again not very strong, the same result, nothing lasted really long and it ended up on the deck. However, we then moved on to another field [laughs] and there life opened up really to me. I was at the right age, my father was very interested in cricket, he was a captain of the local village team so naturally I was drawn towards him, in that respect, and from then on I never lost my love of cricket. I was also, talking back to R 101, I was perhaps sitting idly not far away from where we lived, one Sunday afternoon, I think it was a Sunday, and I felt some sort of change in the atmosphere, I looked up and there was another airship, this time with a swastika largely emblazoned on the fin or tail and this turn out to be Hindenburg. In both cases I’ve, many years later, sorted out whether I was seeing things, which I wasn’t apparently, and you could tell by the route R 101 took it would have come over where we were in a direct line to Hastings, the other one I think went to Yorkshire. As I said, we moved to this property that the Gypsum Mines who were part of the British Plaster Board had built which four families occupied [coughs] the property that we now occupied was situated, one would say, very nicely because it sat in between two public houses, neither of them very far away, but these were not available to be not only have been young but mum and dad were quite strict chapel which of course I had to attend regularly. But nevertheless the country opened up for me and we could go where we liked, looking for dam chicks nests or plover’s eggs and joining the local haymaking, going up on the hayrick, and laid in the horses and I never lost my love of the country from that point. However on rainy days I was able to go into one of the public houses with the publican’s son and when it was not open to the public and have a game of darts or perhaps shove opening or whatever was available at that time [coughs] I’m trying to do it in short verse.
DB: Yeah, that’s fine, that’s
RS: It gives me a chance to get a thought.
DB: Yeah, if you find it easier, that’s a much better way of doing it.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: You’re in charge [laughs]
RS: Yeah. Oh God!
DB: No, don’t worry.
RS: [unclear] either until I bring something up, that’s the trouble.
DB: Got it? [laughs]
RS: [unclear]
DB: Oh, Goodness gracious, I’m glad I didn’t turn up earlier for you.
RS: I don’t know what you would have done actually, left it till tomorrow. But you didn’t think it would be anything like this.
DB: No, I’m sure she didn’t. [unclear] for you while you cough.
RS: [coughs] Yes, I don’t want to cough.
DB: That’s alright, don’t worry. Don’t’ worry, you’re doing really well.
RS: It’s a pity about the cough.
DB: Sorry, [unclear]
RS: You have it? It’s on. Also at the time there were many false alarms and the sirens would go and probably no one would have even hear an aircraft and the manager of the shop was getting a bit fed up with lowering the shutters every time the sirens went and having to put them up again and people in the shop could go below where they kept all the cheese, the eggs and all the meat and all the stuff which ran parallel with the shop as a sort of air raid shelter, eventually though he decided he would open and he put me up on the roof, I volunteered of course, to be a spotter for if there is anything in the area to which I could then warn them and he would just leave the main door open. For warning purposes to the shop below I was, had a bell available at my discretion, to use as and when I thought fit. However, this came to an end when on one day I was watching contrails up in the sky, there didn’t seem to be any risk of any danger to the vicinity when all of a sudden, a bomb hit the Plaza cinema, the front of it, which in a short distance, in a straight line from where I stood, I disappeared down where joined the rest of them underneath, but that was the only bomb which killed the manager. But the manager stopped any future activities up there and not long after that I volunteered for the RAF although I had to continue working for quite a while because there was a [unclear] of aircrew and I volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner. Eventually I was called up to the Royal Air Force in 1942 in September and we were, went to the usual kitting out place and from there we went on to Blackpool for our initial training, ITW, I suppose it was, here we had a mixture of physical exercises, a bit of general walking about town, listening to Morse both in plain language and in code and once you had reached the required speeds in both of those groups, you eventually were able to pass out for the first stage after about six weeks. You then had to follow on to the radio school that was [unclear] of you, which was number 1 radio school at Yatesbury. Here we had a bit longer, a small discipline [unclear], I don’t know, I was put on a charge twice anyway, I’m not quite sure why, now I will gloss over that but you were surprised you know, once you got onto a charge you had to be very careful not to get another one, or it seemed that to me anyway. I did go on the first parade near the guardroom, I put [unclear] four packs I was a very clever and put a blanket and things in the back, which made it considerably lighter. Turned up on the parade ground, the first thing the corporal did was punch the back of it, I suppose he’d had this happen to him or knew all about it many, many times but I was naïve I thought I was being rather clever. That produced another judge, anyway to escape from that, we eventually passed out and the next move was to Madley, where we were to do air to ground training, communication that is and we had two types of aircraft there, initially six of you went up in a, as I said, the remaining part of the course was to confirm the ability to communicate with the ground station from the air. We flew initially with five others plus the instructor taking turns at the radio sets. The aircraft was a DH Dominie. Next was carried out the same exercise, only this time it was just yourself and the pilot. The aircraft was a Proctor. To our collective surprise we were given seven days embarkation leave at the end of the course having passed successfully. In due course we were called up and on 13th November 1943 I was sailing on a P&O line, now a troop ship. My accommodation was situated on the lowest deck, namely H deck and was consisting of a mattress and a small base alongside for kit bag and clothing. We were soon on the move and we were joining up with a convoy, twelve other ships plus escort. Sea legs were required across the Bay of Biscay and beyond but eventually past Gibraltar and entered the calmer waters of the Mediterranean. So far the trip had been uneventful but it then changed when two sustained air attacks took place on the convoy. Being down on H deck, we can only imagine what’s happening and, happening above and listen very intently to everything, there was a barrage of gunfire, bomb explosions, bomb explosions produce sort of shock waves which came with a thud against the hull. I must admit that nearly every eye on the deck was focused on the one set of stairs which criss-crossed up to the various decks and that was our only outlet from where we were. Many years later I obtained a copy of the voyage report, which part of the captain statement contained the following: “the convoy was attacked twice off the North African coast, the first by thirty enemy planes using glide bombs and tornadoes and the second by twelve dive bombers. The Ryan seemed to be the target of the second attack and then four near misses, one within ten feet of the ship which splashed the boardside and covered the deck with oil. The ship was severely shaken and the pumps and the engine were in stop for a few moments”. We were down there, everybody was looking at these stairs, cause it just crisscrossed like that once. [coughs] One finished on one side of the boat, the other [coughs]
DB: [unclear] A little bit of information right [unclear] be great.
RS: Yeah. There were no further allowance and after fourteen days at sea since leaving England the Ryan entered the Suez Canal, passing the statue of Ferdinand de Lesseps, to dock a short distance away. Up early in the next day and packed and a short walk across to a station railway side. NAAFI tea and catering available before boarding the train to take us to Cairo. The journey from Port Said was long and tiring mainly due to the hard wooden seats and it was dark when we arrived at Cairo where we were bundled into waiting lorries which took us to a transit camp. It was tented accommodation, six to a tent just a pile [unclear] for sleeping. We were there for six weeks, waiting for number one course to move out of the newly opened gunnery school before I was able to pay a visit to the visit [unclear] and after that we moved hopefully to be our last part of the training. We were now heading for 13 air gunnery school at El Ballah in Egypt, it was tented accommodation recently allocated by number 1 course, and in which we settled in for another six weeks training. This comprised mostly of courses of ground faring and then airborne exercises with accompanying an aircraft towing the droves to the target in order to demonstrate air gunnery skills, we all had more than one trainee on board, coloured tipped bullets were allocated, so that individual markings on the drove could be connected to the individual person having fired them. This gave you the necessary efficiency to survive the course and at the end of it there was a badge, an air gunners badge together with a set of sergeant stripes which were automatically given at the end of training for aircrew duties. We were then transferred back to the suburb of Cairo at Heliopolis at number 5 ME. This time the accommodation was in the pre-war palace hotel, although all the furniture had been removed it was a pleasant change from tents. Eventually my name appeared on the notice board for operational training unit. This transpired to be at number 20 OTU Shandur in the Canal Zone. We travelled by train from Cairo to Port Tewfik and then by lorry to the airfield at Shandur. South Africans were also there undergoing training on Marauders. Before crewing up it was a case of travelling in your own category, training in your own category, I beg your pardon, and this involved flying in Baltimores, tests were carried out in Avro Ansons for gunnery and all went well and then it became forming of crews, which was quite a casual affair. I was walking along with a [unclear] when the pilot invited me to join him, which I accepted, meeting up with his navigator and upper gunner later. We got on well together and on nineteen occasions we did some training exercises before completing the course. We then departed for a week’s leave at Alexandria, we both [unclear] a house I think therefore and reporting back to 22 PTC transit camp in Cairo. While we were at Alexandria, my pal and myself found ourselves travelling and having a look around and in doing so we visited a street well known for the attention given to you by ladies, however it was fairly dark when we arrived and after hearing some whispering and shuffling about behind a barricade of [unclear] we decided it was best that we took to our heels. On one of the occasions when myself and my pal Jimmy visited the centre of Cairo as we did on several occasions after dodging the bootblacks as we called them, who’d threaten you with the polish if you didn’t have your shoes clean, we were walking along and hearing this terrific crescendo of noise, cavalcade of motorcycles came by as in v-shaped formation and behind them was travelling along was the young king Farouk and we had a good view as he motored on. After Alexandria, after a few more days at our posting to 22 PTC we found ourselves on our way to Naples. One morning we left for [unclear] airfield nearby, we were put into some waiting Dakota, on the way we stopped at, sorry, Benina and Tunis before alighting at Capodichino airfield at Naples. Things were very different. There was a general shortage, the children were ragged and starving and we settled down in a Villa Drusi I believe it was called. In the morning as a [unclear] formed outside of folk, young and old, waiting for anything that we left over from our meals. This was not uncommon and our pilots, at one stage where we had to be careful of thieves, he had his complete kit bag stolen while he was asleep. And the Americans would often have armed guards on the back of food vehicles. One of the [unclear] who gathered at the gates every morning offered to do my laundry, this was accepted and it always came back and she’d be rewarded with a bit of bread or something as well. She was very grateful. Not long after this, a squadron CO came to interview the pilot and the result of which were we were posted to 114 Squadron flying Boston aircraft, a medium bomber, American, operating at night. Not long after we packed our kit and set off to join the squadron, which was situated at that time at the American fifth army front at Tarquinia. Here we found the squadron under canvas and the first task was to surrect tents for ourselves in a field of thistles, which even [unclear] through the socks which we were wearing. An interview of the CO followed who explained the squadron’s duties and one morning I was roughly awaken and sent off with the advance party to a field which was at Cecina, being much nearer to the front line and the realities of war. With a lorry and ten days rations we slept under some trees which were mostly taped off as dangerous, in fact there was one who trod on a butterfly bomb and one of the ground staff later on, we also found ourselves that we could go down onto the beach for a swim, I more or less learned to swim there, however it was rather puzzling when after a few days we’ve been doing this the Americans turned up and starting having metal detectors along the beach, which we’ve been using. Anyway all was well. I don’t know how bad the danger was. 114 Squadron was a part of 232 Wing which contained also the Squadrons numbers 13, 18 and 55 and they were occupied in similar duties. We converted to Bostons, which took nearly a month due to heavy rain. In particular one heavy storm, at all four Squadron crews, ground and air, walking along the runway to dislodge stones had been thrown up by the rain, we carried out our first sortie from here which was bombing the marshalling yards at Medina, followed by a short recce. The main thrust of the Italian campaign was taking place on the Eastern side of the country where the Eighth Army were engaged in heavy fighting against Field Marshall Kesselring’s forces. We were set out various strategic defence lines as they retreated northwards. Once again we did another move, the crews were split up, the pilots flying the aircraft [unclear], our game was on the road party, the convoys several vehicles, sleeping the first night in the [unclear] post office and the second was Assisi. We reached Chiaravalle where we were to stay pending the completion of an airfield at Falconara. Before we left Cecina, we were visited firstly by Sir Winston Churchill, followed soon after by his Majesty King George the Sixth. Both were met by the American general Mark Clark, Commander of the American army. King George the Sixth stopped to walk along our lines but Winston Churchill seemed to disappear almost straight away. Chiaravalle was a very small town and the building we occupied was, used to house all of us was having a basement and a small yard for the cook house. After a few weeks with Christmas 1944 approaching we moved five miles to an empty building in Falconara close to the airfield in which we resumed our flying duties. We did our best to make ourselves comfortable and keep out of the cold. The first thing was to put in a fire and this was helped by someone from the MT section. It was ok when the wind was in the right direction otherwise we were smoked out. One item we were lacking was a wireless, so myself and a pilot from the same squadron hitchhiked around the area initially without any luck until we came across an army camp which was New Zealanders who were on the move home and they had a home-made wooden box set who reluctantly parted with it. Having a wireless was a great assistance to us and greatly helped as well by the member from the MT unit managed to fix us out with the necessary power. Our crew took some leave from here going back to Rome and while we were away we, the squadron lost a third of its crew, including two COs, which rather made us feel a bit subdued having not taken part in what obviously was a bad time. With the arrival of March, we heard that we would have moved nearer to the frontline and the next day the field we would have occupied was at Forli. Before we left Falconara, we carried out our twentieth sortie, which was a bit different aircrew, we were briefed directly on the airfield of Vicenza. The difference was taking off in daylight when previously we had flown only at night. Was a strange feeling to be so visible, dusk soon fell and nothing was seen but we were receiving some interest for the ground so we bombed the runway and went for home. For memory, the attention we were receiving from the ground was basically only one gun but it was getting very, very accurate firing arm piercing stuff which coloured green as you know.
DB: [unclear]
RS: Ok. With the rest of 232 Wing we arrived at Forli airfield were allocated with billet in an empty house on the main street, we set up our beds into red tents and helped with the mess necessary to be erected in the back yard. We were very busy there in support of the Eighth Army who had started a new offensive, many of our sorties were under radar control, one particular area where the army was held up near Argenta at 3 am on the 19th of April, forty-five crews took off at two minute intervals to assist for the breakthrough. For aircrew it was our fiftieth sortie. The area was a mass of smoke and the artillery were firing red marker shells to give the air crews and bomb aimers some idea of where they should be aiming their missiles, something like that. Oh, we are doing well now. Of course, did I take it off? Out of line of further twelve sorties, attacking ferry points, bridges, rivers and any moment generally we were then stood down. The day came and everyone joined in the celebrations which is very low key, as a crew we had been pleased, we were very pleased to be still around and thankful to the ground crews that had looked after us and in various aircraft. With regards to the ground crew, we often had a chat and a cigarette before the take-off and their reply on the V-E-Day was that the party of them we would a large floodlight down the street to a camp nearby parking outside the main gate they treated the Germans to a few patriotic songs. After weeks watching the German prisoners come through, the news came that we would have moved further north to an airfield in Aviano. Soon afterwards we flew in formation with the CO. And so ended the nights appearing into the darkness, throwing out flares by hand, dropping propaganda leaflets, and surrender invitations to the Italians. At Aviano, this was a large airfield situated on the Lombardy plains, well away from the road at the foot of the lower Alps. Our first job was to find a decent tent, wasn’t it always? And settle in for flying formation training. This was because the CO wanted to do a flypast over [unclear] in Southern France, obviously had some connection there, apart from that we did the old country exercise. This time Marshall Tito was making his demands over Trieste which resulted in the aircraft shuttling to and fro to bring the bomb ship, bomb dump up to the required level that may be needed. We visited a nearby village where local girls were taking care of her laundry and where local partisans were showing themselves probably more than they had done before now that it was at peace, theoretically and they were distinguished by coloured neckerchiefs. They were still patrolling in the mountains and at once I was invited to join them but I declined. On one visit we attended several of us a local dance and I was dancing around with a young lady who had a headscarf on and I eventually noticed that under the headscarf there was very little hair. To this end, I was apparently receiving the attention of one of the local young men and one of my pals tipped me off between dances which decided me that we would probably leave and we went back to the lorry and in due course got back. There was quite a bit of head shaving I believe going on in the village of the girls that had associated themselves with the Germans while they were there. One evening in the camp we were alarmed by a large explosion and columns of smoke came up from the bomb dump. German incendiary bombs had been set off by an Italian civilian who was severely injured. There were no camp railings, it was barely an open altogether so they were able to just wander about, though not many of them bothered to do so but he did apparently and the [unclear] dump for personal bombs was swiftly removed by many hands. And the same night we had a severe storm which hit the camp, leaving tents in a bit of a mess to say the least. I woke up looking at the heavens and feeling rain on my face. Sorry [unclear]. A few weeks later the CO pulled us all together to say that the squadron was now being posted to Aden and the other three squadrons were going to Greece. We thought then as we got the worst deal before of us. I was on leave when the main party left to go by sea but on my return I was put in charge of a small party and we flew down from Udine to Bari in two Marauders and we met up with others there who were still waiting for a boat. The Winchester Castle arrived at Taranto taking us direct to Aden. We thought we might be going to Egypt but we were right, we had to disembark at Port Said and go back to 22 PTC, we repeated the journey that we had carried out quite some time before. After that we waited for another ship which eventually arrived, I forget the name, which took us down the Red Sea to Aden and we joined up with the rest of the squadron at Khormaksar airfield. The squadron was posted there to releave 61 Squadron which slowly departed. Unfortunately a Wellington bomber belonging to them with eight people on board took off, circled the airfield, established radio contact, set off for Egypt but unfortunately nothing more was ever heard of them. Our crews flying carrying out ten more flights around the area, including one across to Somalia at a place called Hargeisa. On hearing the news that the squadron was to be disbanded and the Mosquitoes would be replacing our [ unclear] Bostons, we were to be split up into various duties in the area. In my case, I was put onto flying control, this included [unclear] the control towers at Khormaksar and shake off satellite airfield four miles further inland and two weeks at Masirah Island. When going into Masirah I travelled in a Dakota, I stopped at Salalah on the way, my only company in the, was a goat. I ended up then after that on the main traffic air control centre in the area at headquarters and then I awaited my clearance to return to England and demobilisation.
DB: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. The SS Alcantara arrived to accomod us for the return home, so at 1700 hours we were told that we had to be on board at 1900 hours, naturally we accomplished this. The boat made a short stop at Naples and then on the afternoon of the 17th of October 1946 we docked at Southampton, two [unclear] away from the Queen Mary. After approximately three years continuous service overseas it was with mixed emotions to see a double, red double decker bus passing along a nearby road. I was demobbed at 1 POC Kirkham Lancs and after that I set off to Hastings having warned my mother in advance. I finished up taking the milk train and arriving at Warrior Square Gardens at Saint Leonards on the train to be awokened up by a lady, grey-haired lady who at first I didn’t immediately see but this was of course my mother having spotted me snoozing away and being in uniform she was very lucky, I might’ve had to go onto Hastings otherwise and woke me up, quite a shock. But it was a lovely feeling.
Us: [unclear] 1952. [laughs]
RS: Returning home I didn’t go back to my job at [unclear] so I was in several others occupied that position before during the war and I finished up in RAC records office which was a place where, if they didn’t know what to find you with from the employment, they would put you up there and you filled a hole, I did nothing and they put me in a room which unfortunately was occupied by a bookie who spent all his time going around this very large building collecting bets. Nobody ever came into the room I did a few letters if I remember, but eventually got away from it and found other employment. Strangely enough this employment was back at the Gypsum Mines which my mother had not wanted me to go to at all, but this time I suppose she thought that I wasn’t qualified to do anything other than going down the mine but this time a friend of mine had given me the whisper that the current job was available, I applied and I got it and I worked there and I was trained by an ex-navy lieutenant who also had been demobbed and spent mostly twelve years there. At that time we were, where were we living, Doris? My wife, I’m just asking a question now cause I forget the answer.
US: Silverhill, I should think.
RS: At Silverhill, we were living at Silverhill [unclear] and we used to cycle something like eleven miles there and back, or I did, not my wife, with my mate too, who also worked there, was about twenty two miles a day, I put that down the fact my legs are still going there, nearly ninety three. After that I felt that I could do better on my own which was a mistake really. I took another job in a garage, also sold cars for hire and this sort of stuff and left there after about a year. One thing I should mention is that I married my wife Doris in March 1952 and in 1953 both of us with the two friends took a coach from Hastings central and went up to London to witness what we could of the coronation of our present queen. To do so we had to sit in the rain in one of the London main streets, I forget which one, Bond Street or Regent Street and the happiest memory was seeing Queen Charlotte drive by unexposed by any in a carriage, waving to the crowds whereas everybody else was in closed carriages.
DS: Lovely.
RS: You’re alright?
DS: Yeah, absolutely fabulous. No, that’s fine.
US: [unclear] in Kent, not Lincolnshire.
DS: No, don’t worry. Yeah, don’t worry. Yeah, no, cause I know some of the places as well, cause I, no, no, don’t worry about it, I mean they may not use that little bit anyway, so, it’s no problem.
RS: No, no. Yeah, that’s right.
DS: No, that’s brilliant, lots of little bits that they can pick out of that.
RS: Yeah, that’s right. They can actually do that then, they cut their own tape of it.
DS: Yeah, what they’ll do is they’ll take the bits out that they want and put them all together and that sort of thing, so, yeah, there’s lots of little bits in there that, you know, the whole point is to let you just talk.
RS: Yeah. That’s it, yeah.
DS: So that you just say things. A bit like your, you said about your friend and you going down with [unclear], they’ll love that sort of thing. And the little sort of side you put in and that sort of thing. It’s all extra interest.
RS: Obviously [unclear] at the same time.
DS: No, of course. No, no, no, that’s fine, I mean.
US: [unclear] well, I could have said that.
DS: Well, [laughs] that’s always the same, there’s always, afterwards there’s always stuff that you think of that you could say but I wouldn’t. [file missing]
RS: One item I forgot to mention was a fact that shortly after joining up, at Blackpool I chummed up with a Scotch fellow by the name of Jimmy Sneddon. One thing I could have mentioned which presumably is not unusual but I thought it was, was the pal I mentioned when we were in Alexandria and doing a walkabout, we actually got together when we were at Blackpool, we went through obviously not unheard of to do what you are training together but after that we were both posted on 114 Squadron, we joined up with two a crew each of which the two pilots had also trained together and this meant that we kept on leave, we were going together and all the events, and he was with me when we arrived at Aden, we travelled together in the boat then in the Red Sea, but he had a class B posting and was able to get away from Aden a few months before I was able to, but he was a good friend and we met up twice after the war, it was a long time afterwards mind you because we drifted apart and you sort of lost track with everybody but it was good to have someone like it on your side, someone who could deal with all the day events and go on leave with, talk about, unfortunately we smoked too much and I’m suffering for it. End of story. After becoming a sergeant, which was automatic in those days, I carried on flight sergeant and when I left Aden I was a warrant officer and pride to wear the badge on my sleeve.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ron Saunders
Creator
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Denise Boneham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaundersR160616
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Pending review
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00:43:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
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Ron Saunders joined the RAF as a wireless operator rear gunner and served on 114 Squadron during the war. Remembers, as a little boy, seeing the airship R 101 and the Hindenburg flying in the distance. Describes his training in England and in Egypt at various stations and being posted to Italy afterwards. Mentions various episodes: the troop ship being attacked twice; seeing king Farouk passing by in a convoy in the streets of Cairo. Recounts various episodes of his service time in Italy: wartime hardships, the Prime Minister’s and the King’s visit to their airfield, joining locals at a village festival. Tells of how his squadron supported the Eight Army in the Battle of the Argenta Gap. Remembers then being posted to Aden, where he was put in charge of flight control. After the war, mentions going to London to see the queen’s coronation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Great Britain
Italy
Oman
Mediterranean Region
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Suez
Egypt--Cairo
Italy--Naples
Oman--Masirah Island
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
114 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-26
bomb dump
bombing
Boston
C-47
demobilisation
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1145/11701/AStevensonWR151202.2.mp3
cdf64c51040d531c7161ab2d8c4fb941
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stevenson, Walter Raymond
W R Stevenson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Walter Stevenson DFM (b. 1922, 1080597, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner in a Wellington with 621 Squadron in East Africa and Aden, and with RAF Costal Command. Walter helped to bring a number of war criminals to justice. He was demobbed in August 1946 and returned to his pre-war occupation of blacksmithing.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-12-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stevenson, WR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: This story relates to Walter Stevenson and part of the air force career he had resulted in the surrender of a German U-boat and the eventual death by hanging of the captain for war crimes.
[recording paused]
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and it is the 2nd of December 2015. And I’m with Walter Stevenson DFM and his wife Lillian. And we’re going to talk about his experiences in life but with particular interest in the war. So, Walter could you start off by talking about your earliest recollections? The family. Where you went to school.
WS: Yes. My earliest recollection is quite vivid. The age I wasn’t sure about but I was told many times when we came back from the hospital that I’d been away from home. So I was, spent x number of weeks in a hospital at Middlesbrough which is twenty odd miles from Merton. And I went there because me father had gone there on the say, Friday. And I went away on the Sunday. All I know is I saw the funny building outside vividly. And the nurse with, I’d never seen a nurse before. And I just probably went to sleep. And when I woke up I was in, I was in a ward where the matron sat talking, and father tells me this afterwards, ‘He’s too young to be on his own.’ Three wards in Middlesbrough. First World War casualties. TB. Special one for TB and a special one for [pause] TB. It’ll come in a minute. TB. Oh what I was in for? I’m forgetting the bit I was in for. I had smallpox. The biggest killer of mankind. Yeah. And father did. The two of us you know. The rest of the family which was mam, mam, me brother Tommy, older, and me sister Mair and sister Ivy. They were at home so why they didn’t get it I don’t know. I got it. And how long in there for? Sorry. The people would have to make their mind up and tell. Two types of, two types of smallpox. Very old, major and minor. The major was a killer. And the minor — comme ci, comme ca. You won some and lost some. Which I’ve later researched and found, I’ve always thought I must have had minor with dad because you can see by my face no pox. Well, it left you terribly scarred if, whether you died anyway. So —
CB: Okay. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going.
WS: And how long we were in for I can’t say. And coming out and then I was spoiled. Oh my mother had then had a, not while I was in there but shortly after we had another baby. Harry. And he died early. Very early. Six months or six weeks. And again I remember that vividly. Whether I was three or three and a half then, or four. I don’t know. I don’t think I was at school. And the first time I recommend of, I remember of that was father carrying the box out. You know. You don’t carry them today do they? Just a little white box. I don’t know where he was going. No, no burial. He just walked up to the cemetery. That’s what happened in 19 — three years on top of my age.
CB: 1925. Yeah.
WS: ’25. Say ’25. And that was the end. And then you lose it. Quite a enjoyable, I I liked the colliery very much. Started school at five. Did like all schooling, liked all headmasters and marks. Again which I fought with over in the book. Could have done better. You could have done better. She could have done better. We all could. I know what it’s for. It’s to encourage you on. I understand that. But I didn’t, I didn’t do bad and I’m big enough to put it down in a book. I wonder how many others are. Not many. Oliver has wrote his CV now because being cleverer than me he thinks he should have wrote a book but he hasn’t. He’s given a lot of advice in books but, but he hasn’t wrote a book yet. He’s left it a bit too late now.
CB: What age did you leave school?
WS: And I left school at fourteen. Oh yes, you’re going to lose track. I lose track. Fourteen. Yes. I played on. I was playing football for the school eleven so I carried on. So it’s fourteen on top of twenty two. ’36 and a bit longer. Purely to play football. Not to worry about. And father said the best thing you can do [pause] And drink your tea before it gets cold.
LR: I’ll make another one. I could do with another one anyway.
WS: And it does doesn’t it? She can carry two. Very good. Right. Oh, father said, you’d better didn’t know what I wanted. I didn’t. There’s one thing I definitely knew at fourteen. One is I wanted to be a footballer. I still had that here and here. And father said, ‘You haven’t got a job yet?’ ‘No.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’d better start looking.’ He knew well there was only one place to go and that was the mine. I wasn’t too keen on that. Not even as a fourteen year old. And I got a job in the butcher’s at Merton. Skillbeck’s. Which I liked. Riding a bike. Cleaning the floors. But it had one drawback. Working Saturdays ‘til 9 o’clock at night. Eight in morning till nine at night. Slavery. Absolute slavery. How people can. Fridays was till 8 o’clock. 6 o’clock every. Eight till six. 7 o’clock, 9 o’clock on a Saturday. 9 o’clock. Unbelievable isn’t it? And so I thought well, so I had to go cap in hand, say to dad, ‘Could you find me a job?’ I knew he could. He was a traffic manager so he had a little bit of pull. And he did. Got me a job as a blacksmith apprentice which I started about sixteen because I was playing junior football and I couldn’t play football working on a Saturday. [pause] And then I worked at the colliery from sixteen. Could have only have been two years. Eighteen. And I thought I don’t like it because even though I was a blacksmith we had to go down. Normally, blacksmithing you’d think it’s on an anvil all day wouldn’t you? No. That’s old fashioned. On the colliery there’s two types. There’s the person who goes down and does just shoes. Makes the shoes at bank and then puts them on the ponies down there. That’s one form of smithing. The other form of smithing was on the, on the bank until there was an accident or summat wrong with the coal cutting machines which we serviced and you had to go down. Sometimes, sometimes two, three mile in. Two mile in by. I did not like that at all. Hate wouldn’t be too strong a word. I hated it. But I did it until eighteen. The day I was eighteen I went to, decided — I decided. Not mother or father. I did. I was very clever then. I decided I would, the RAF has got to be a better job than going two miles under the North Sea. I didn’t think that was funny at all. Miners liked it and they did it. Terrible. Terrible job. So, I, I went with a friend of mine who was a joiner. Apprentice joiner. A bit, he was a bit older than me so he could go in at that time. But I had to wait for me eighteenth birthday because in them days, contrary to a lot of lads from London I’ve met, ‘Oh I joined up when I was seventeen,’ I said you must have had —
CB: They didn’t.
WS: You must. No. But they add a bit on you know. To the — I said, ‘Well, we couldn’t do that. We had to show the sergeant at Durham our birth certificate.’ Well you had to. Simple as that. So I signed in and that’s, and that’s the day I joined up and the date then was [pause ] it’s in the book.
CB: 1940. October 1940.
WS: Was it? Well, yeah that’s, that’s what it would be. October. And a new world to me. So I said, ‘Well, we’re off Charlie.’ I’ve just found out lately why, I did see him once after the war. He came to see me in Chalfont. There was something funny. Mind you he spent, that was his fault, he spent four years in Pershore or somewhere. In, well, when, when we’d got attested in Padgate you get attested for all. Have you — is your eyesight good? And can you breathe and can you speak? And all the, all the rigmarole. You know what it is. And before we went to bed that night I said, ‘Oh good, Charlie,’ I said, ‘I’m going home.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m not.’ He said, ‘I’m going to Barry.’ Barry? I’d never heard of Barry. I’ve heard of Bury but not of Barry. Barry? So he went. ‘Oh, why is that?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘They’ve decided I’m going to be a fitter.’ ‘They decided? You went as a W/op AG with me.’ Then I let it, and then I blew because I was happy to go back because I was playing football anyway. And he was in Barry and then I didn’t see him for five years. The places he was around. Pakistan and wherever. And from the, from Padgate back home until I eventually was called up at Blackpool which I enjoyed. I enjoyed it. It’s in the book. The RAF might agree or disagree my feelings. The RAF to me was good when it was very good. Like the boy, the little boy. He’s bad when he’s very, he’s naughty. Good, bad and indifferent wasn’t it? It was. My, me first day at Blackpool I think I got in trouble. Well, I didn’t get in trouble because they didn’t get catch me. But they would have caught me. But I went to the toilets and I had to stop in there ‘til they’d gone away. All I’d lost was me hat. I don’t. You know. You’re supposed to stick it up —
CB: In your belt. Yeah.
WS: Or the front, ent you? Aye. Well, it must have dropped out. So then that’s when me, and that’s when me title for me war years because that was me. That was my, what do you call them? It’s so true it’s untrue. Yes. I thought that was funny. I thought that. My daughter got this. That wasn’t what I wanted at all. I wanted, I wanted that. I wanted that. A bit smaller. And I wanted that. I was going to put it and get it SIB to get it--
CB: You mean redesign the face?
WS: Yeah.
CB: Redesign the face of the book.
WS: Yes. I did.
CB: Yeah. Thanks Lily.
WS: Yes. But I’m surprised that people are prepared to give that money to the Association so that I’m happy with. It’s, it’s but I thought that was catchy. But I did, I put five titles. I didn’t do that. But anyway. Thank you, mam.
CB: So from Blackpool?
WS: I miss that.
CB: Yeah. At Blackpool.
WS: That’s at Blackpool.
CB: That was square bashing. Square bashing.
WS: Wonderful. But that’s, you haven’t got that right. Square bashing. Marching. No. No. No. I didn’t march from day one. What height are you?
CB: PT. PT.
WS: Yeah. What height are you? What height are you?
CB: Five ten.
WS: Five ten. Oh right. That’ll do. Five ten’ll do. What height am I?
CB: Five six.
WS: Aye. And that’s pushing it a bit. In the RAF, I think I must have had high heels. They made, in my records which I got from Lincoln the people who did the records there should have done better. I would have marked their card. I’ve got it here somewhere. I don’t know where it is. It’s a proper record of me. Five foot four and a half.
CB: Oh right.
WS: So, I was supposed to, at Blackpool which I never did and never did anywhere else either. It’s very like that but I got pulled up there. First day there, ‘You in the middle. Bobbing up and down like a cork in the ocean.’ Maltese sergeant. I thought chh. Well, I couldn’t march. How can I march behind you? So, I used to get in the middle didn’t I? You learn quick. And it never did work and I just used to put up with it. But I, I, they weren’t going to beat me. They did. No. They wouldn’t beat me but I kept on fighting them which I enjoyed immensely. All in the book and I write it down. I did. I liked, I liked the thought of them trying to beat me. If I’d been five foot ten I could have joined the Durham Light Infantry and I would have been a hero. Killed them. All the Germans. I didn’t but I could only do what I could do. My pace. I read in the papers since this year, last year how could, she was in the WAAF. How could she keep up with —? How could anybody as small as five foot. Lil was just five foot. And she was, women have got, they’ve been paid awards for overstretching. Trying to — well it’s understandable isn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
WS: But they didn’t understand it with me. Why is that? I felt like saying, ‘I joined up to fly,’ I said, ‘You get somebody else marching.’ But you know the — did you go to Blackpool?
CB: No.
WS: No.
CB: No.
WS: Lovely place. I’d never been there before. Well, the furthest I’d been is Sunderland. Why I went to Durham I don’t know because the sergeant made me sick. His first words were, ‘Where are you from?’ Well, you’ve got to tell them. ‘Merton.’ ‘What do you do?’ You didn’t do anything at Merton. Only the pit. So he knew that. So clever like, you know. I said, ‘Yeah, but we’ve come to join up.’ ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘Yeah,’ but he said, ‘We need blacksmiths and joiners.’ I said, ‘No. We’ve come to fly,’ I said. ‘We want to fly.’ He kept on and on, this sergeant. I swear he had nowt better to do. When we said aircrew, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They all want to.’ Course I was a bit slop. I looked around. I said, ‘There’s not many behind here, sergeant.’ I gave him his rank. Don’t know why I did. Just taking the mickey. ‘Alright. Alright,’ he said. But there was nobody in there so he couldn’t say everybody wanted to join the RAF.
CB: No.
WS: And then from then Blackpool. And then my war years at Blackpool.
CB: What did you actually do at Blackpool? What did you do at Blackpool?
WS: Oh, in Blackpool. Twelve words a minute. Twelve words a minute.
CB: This was the, when you started doing Morse code.
WS: Yeah. Wireless was, as well you might know. You know. But I was quite good at it. I didn’t find it, I’m prepared to put everything in black and white. I’m prepared to put all me, they’re all in there. All the, all what I did. And I didn’t do bad. But not because I was clever. I did it because I liked it and it was different. And the only thing I didn’t like was after leaving Blackpool, I didn’t like it at Blackpool because I had to do guard one night. That’s all. I did a guard one night and they [pause] this is a joke. So true it’s untrue. Yeah. I couldn’t believe it happened in the RAF. The sergeant walked down with the people like. Down the ranks. And I’m sitting like this because I wasn’t very, I wasn’t keen on shaving if I went up. ‘Stand up airman.’ How you can stand up when you wanted a shave I don’t know but that’s what they wanted you to do. And they said, they go in a huddle, the sergeant and the PO. This was for an all night guard. And one of the big officers were guarding a hotel in Blackpool. ‘Come here.’ I thought it was a bit rough how he shouted at me like, but [laughs] I knew what it was for like you know. You haven’t shaved. Or your buttons. Well, I used to clean them like that. Rub them. And he said, the officer, you stick man. Well, I could have broke down in tears. Me? Stick man. I was about the untidiest, the poorest dressed man in the RAF. I wasn’t very good at dress. Mick used to say, ‘You look a mess,’ And even said, my mate in London. I said, ‘Well it’s, I’ve done my best but I’m not, I’m not meant to be smart at five foot four.’ [laughs] And I said, ‘Stick man?’ ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘But I’ll get you. Don’t get too cocky for your — ’ so I just stepped out and I was stick man. Which was unbelievable but it pleased me because I didn’t have to stand like a twit outside the, one of the hotels. You didn’t do anything anyway. I was to meet further problems at Yatesbury. There I did well. I did. I passed out quite well at twelve words a minute. A little bit of technical work but nothing much other than —
CB: You got promotion.
WS: It started. It started after three days when I’d do the variation in me book. It’s again my daughter didn’t do it the way I wanted it. I do about six pages which I’d done sitting here. And I think I was better to do when I went to hospital in Middlesborough. So, I put that in the middle of the Blackpool one although I don’t leave Blackpool, you’ve got to read it. You’ve got to read me about six, I don’t know how much, it’s not six pages in there but it’s in six pages in A2s which I wrote. You then take your mind back from 1941 to [pause] from 1941 take your mind back to 1925 when I was in Middlesborough.
CB: In a hospital. Yeah.
WS: Middlesborough. Then I write about the people and the research I’d done on smallpox.
CB: Right.
WS: For want of something better to do and I got a lot of help from people in the hospital there and how much it cost and all that then. And about Louis Pasteur. I was interested in reading about him. He was one of the good things I liked. You’re not French are you? You’ve not got any French [laughs] Well, me and the French is not [laughs] He then decided that I would come back again. But I’d never leave Blackpool. But after three days there, ah that’s when that started.
CB: We’re talking about the title of the book.
WS: That started. Just a title. I didn’t think anything of it other than but I thought but it‘s catchy. It’s a bit like somebody sneezing or Japanese. I don’t know what it’s like. “Airman roll your sleeves up and shut up.” Going in the building which is what I wanted on the front pages of my book. Which I haven’t got. The queue was, how many is in a squad? Fifty? I think there was about fifty. There’s a photograph of about fifty. Till it come to me. And you know smallpox is a scratch rather than you, you’d know more than I did. The rest is needles and that’s bad enough. They sling them into you like. Five, six and then the sergeant said, ‘You can have the weekend off.’ Well, you know you can just about make your bed in Blackpool. Mind you the beds were very good in private digs. But when it come to the scratch bit then my ruffles came up. He’s sitting there and I’ve got me, me list from me mam which is sacrament. She can be one thing of all things. She wouldn’t lie. That’s, that wasn’t in her. And she taught me not to lie. And so did father. They said, you’re going through your list. Chicken pox? Yes. Something? Yes. Other disease? Yes. Smallpox? No. ‘Yes,’ I said. ‘No. Smallpox. You’ve got chicken, you’ve had chicken pox.’ ‘Smallpox,’ I said. And then the queues were still waiting and I’m still —I’ve had smallpox and they’ve told mam or dad it won’t scab up. Well it was like talking to this here. And that, and that didn’t do my hackles any good. And they said, then the sergeant‘s voice come over, he was only about there but I can see him, nasty smirk on his face, ‘Roll your sleeves airman and shut up.’ So, you’re going to be scratched whether you liked it or you didn’t like it or the doctor was kind. He said, ‘That’s alright,’ he said, ‘Just come back if it scabs up.’ But of course it didn’t so they were right in that respect. But then the gentleman from Bristol University who’s wrote a wonderful book, he’s done a bit of research and they fight one another you see. A lot of doctors. And all right it didn’t quite work like that. Some people did live with it and some people didn’t. And when I wrote I said well I must have had the — what do you call them? A nice gentleman. He was the top man at Bristol University. He’s in, there’s a smallpox hospital quite near. Well, there was a place I was going to go and I’ve never got there. He said he would come up and see me. I don’t think it’s a very nice museum to see. No. I wouldn’t. That’s what I thought. But I would have wanted a look around. And it went on and I knew at the next station it would be the same again so I tried to fight it and I tried to win that one but I didn’t win that one. And from then the end of Blackpool. Wonderful six months roughly was it? About six months. Strangely enough a lot of navigators went to —
[pause]
WS: The place just up the coast of Blackpool.
CB: Morecambe. Morecambe.
WS: No. Not up direct. Along past. The long past.
CB: Okay.
WS: Instead of going north Blackpool, go south Blackpool.
CB: Oh right.
WS: Up there.
CB: Yeah. Okay. Well, there’s Lytham St Annes. That sort of thing.
WS: Lytham St Annes.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Oliver. I think he, he went to Lytham.
CB: Did he? Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Did a bit. But of course there was an aerodrome up there wasn’t there?
CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
WS: Yeah.
CB: So the point of my question was what you did during the initial training. So when you were at Blackpool —
WS: Yes.
CB: An important point was getting all the inoculations done.
WS: Yes.
CB: Which is what you’ve just been talking about. Then there was a certain amount of marching that had to be done.
WS: Yeah. Which I wasn’t good at.
CB: Then there was physical fitness. What else was there?
WS: Oh aye. Yeah. But I liked that. I did like that. I liked the, I liked that part because I like football.
CB: Yeah.
WS: So I wanted to be as fit as possible for when I came out.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Assuming I was coming out.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Didn’t know where I was going but, yes. Torn between being a perfect airman.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Which, I’m sorry. [laughs] I failed miserably. Nothing out of a hundred.
CB: And then you went to Yatesbury.
WS: Yatesbury.
CB: And at Yatesbury was the place where you learned W/T.
WS: From twelve.
CB: Yeah.
WS: From twelve.
CB: Twelve words.
WS: To twenty five.
CB: Yeah. Twenty five. Right.
WS: Twenty five.
CB: On Morse code.
WS: Yeah. We had that. That was just the Morse. But the good thing about it was I learned a lot about wireless which I found very interesting and I did well there apart from the damned Maltese sergeant. Going to war. He said, he was the one who said I’m going along there like a cork in the ocean. But I’d just come down from Merton with a kit bag on me shoulder and I wasn’t equipped to do that. I wasn’t a massive man.
CB: So from —
WS: And then I got —
CB: How long were you at Yatesbury?
WS: Six months roughly.
CB: Okay. Right. Then where did you go?
WS: There. It’s all in there.
CB: It’s in there. Okay right.
WS: Yatesbury.
CB: Well we’ll look it up in a minute.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But at Yatesbury did you do any flying training or not?
WS: No. Because, because the RAF in their infinite wisdom were clever enough to fill the, fill the stations up with potential [pause] potential W/op AGs. So it was just my bad luck. No it wasn’t. It was my good luck. My good luck. First time I’d had any luck in the RAF. All the rest had been bad. It had, they were producing at the schools more W/op AGs than aircraft for them but it should. They did, some did fly from there. So that’s when I, that’s when the RAF, the button, summat went wrong with the system. You then went in at the end of the year and said where would you like to go because you’ve got to go out on a station until there’s enough flying schools . Which was at Mona eventually, when we got to. So you went. I remember it and now I remember this vividly, ‘Where’d you like to go airman?’ I said, ‘The north preferably.’ Knowing full, that’s where I made me first mistake. I should have said Cornwall. And damn me they would have sent me there. But it worked. I said the north east and they sent me to Thornaby. Wonderful. Thornaby was, that’s when I met me first Halton brat. Wonderful lad. Corporal. Wireless bloke. And I went, I was in private digs in Thornaby. Which the address was Thornaby, you know. They did funny things didn’t they? The Post Office. It’s not Thornaby. Thornaby in Yorkshire. It’s that side the water. Yorkshire. Telephone number, the address for mam was blah blah blah RAF Thornaby, RAF, RAF Thornaby. Stockton. County Durham. Well, I couldn’t get nothing better. It was about twenty six miles from home. I could hitchhike home at night. Go to a dance at [unclear ] Lane. Come back in the train in the morning and be back in time because it was no, I could do, the corporal said, ‘What you want to do you do.’ He was, there was nothing he didn’t know about wireless because he did the correct training at Halton. And he was very very kind to me. I wish I’d remembered — he was a London lad but I forget his name. Shame. And —
CB: What did you do at Thornaby?
WS: Thornaby.
CB: What did you do there?
WS: Nothing. Well, I was supposed to be learning wireless. So we had, the squadron was 608 Squadron. It was two, two parts. 608 Squadron and C OTU. It was an OTU for Canadians on Hudsons. So that was, that was an advantage of a different radio set for me to learn. And he, he virtually, I went out with some of the ground staff lads and if they wanted help I couldn’t do much. But, but if, if anybody was flying, as you see in the log book I did quite a few in, I did quite a few just short trips. A bit scary too because they were sprog pilots. A sprog short trip. We got lost one day when we were going to Scotland. If you read the — it’s in there isn’t it? That’s sometime when I lost my book. About then. But, anyway, most enjoyable. First time I’d had a pint of beer from a padre. That’s a good record isn’t it? That was the second one I’ve had from you. Thank you very much. I was going to see this, the sports officer about football. And I knocked on the door. ‘Aye,’ he said. ‘Come in.’ He was a Catholic priest. [unclear] And he, he said, ‘Do you want a drink?’ I said, ‘Yes please.’ I thought to get a free drink from a padre is pretty unique. And he said, ‘Stand there. I’ll get the officer for you.’ And I thought that was very kind. And the trips were, the trips were nice but I didn’t know whether they were dangerous or not because I’d never done any flying. That’s me first. But they were all — have you got it?
CB: No.
WS: Oh. Let me. I’ll [pause] It could have been in my other [pause] oh dear.
CB: Right.
WS: That’s, that’s —
CB: So we’re looking in the logbook now.
WS: Silloth. No. That’s Silloth.
CB: That’s at Silloth.
WS: We want Thornaby. Thornaby. Yeah. They were all just scratchy ‘til we got lost one day and we went to Paisley. I said, ‘Well what’s gone wrong?’ And they were nice lads. All Canadian crews. We just went out into Paisley one night and then back the next morning. So they, they could still fly a bit.
CB: So you were at Thornaby for some time.
WS: Well, typical RAF they said you’ll only be there a few weeks. Turned out to be one year. So it’s a one year of me. Of me. But it was, as you can see I got quite a few flying hours in.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I don’t know whether it helped me or not. Some were good. Some were bad.
CB: We didn’t talk about your air gunnery. So after you’d done the wireless operation where did you learn your air gunnery?
WS: Well, from there I was called to —
CB: Ah. After this —
WS: Yeah. From when, when we went back I expect I had leave from there. Yorkshire. The island.
CB: In Yorkshire?
WS: No. In Wales.
CB: Oh Anglesey.
WS: Anglesey.
CB: Right.
WS: Thank you. And that was an experience in itself. You said that you’ve got Anglesey. Oh that’s right. That’s all right. Yeah.
CB: That it?
[pause]
WS: Silloth
CB: Air gunnery was Silloth was it?
WS: So that’s, that’s where my logbook goes for a —
CB: This is because you’ve got interruptions in your log book.
WS: Hmmn?
CB: This is because you have interruptions in your log book.
WS: Yes. Well, because I lost it.
CB: Yes.
WS: I lost it, you see. See, because I’ve got it down there. There’s my [pause] this’ll scare you to death then.
CB: The point about this is that Walter is good at losing things. Including his logbook.
WS: Yeah.
CB: So we’re now on to Mona in North Wales.
WS: Yes.
CB: Right.
WS: Mona. I thought that was different. That’s right in the middle of northern — have you been there?
CB: No.
WS: It’s dead in the middle.
CB: Really. Yeah.
WS: You know where the prince went?
CB: Yes.
WS: That’s on the isle, that’s on the end.
CB: Right.
WS: It’s still not far by island standards but, but you used to get a garry or summat to Mona. I only had one day off a week. Actually, Heather’s son’s just went up there to get his BA.
CB: Oh.
WS: And he went to Bangor.
CB: Yeah.
WS: We used to go to Bangor once a week.
CB: The interesting thing about your Number 3 Air Gunnery School at Mona is that all the pilots are Polish.
WS: All Polish.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. All Polish. Very good. We never, we never had any problems. Well, one problem when they tell you at school, ‘You could have done better.’ There’s one trip there that’s pretty outstanding. See. People could invent summat, a talking glass.
CB: Yeah.
WS: They’d make a fortune [pause] On —
[pause]
CB: Right. We’re looking in the logbook.
WS: On the, on the 24th of February 1943.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
WS: On 24th of February.
CB: This is when you did an outstanding gunnery job.
WS: Well, there were so many things went wrong. We started in the morning. Have I got the hours down right? Ah, 10:50. 10:50. 10:50. That’s ten to eleven in the morning. And [pause] and on ‘til the 28th of February. Same trip. Same. Same, I don’t know if it was the same pilot or not. I think it was the same pilot. Up, down, up, up. You’re supposed to — it takes about a half an hour each. Less than that. And these are the things that can go wrong. And of course there’s like the aircraft that tows the drogue. What do you call them?
CB: What was the plane you were flying? An Anson was it?
WS: No.
CB: Or a Wellington?
WS: No. We weren’t. No. I think it, I think it was the horrible one. I think it was the horrible one. The, the Botha.
CB: Oh.
WS: Yeah. Nobody liked that.
CB: No.
WS: It was alright for training. But this, this was a one day trip. Most of them last an hour a bit. An hour and a bit. An hour. Less than an hour. We started here. Up, down because there was no drogue.
CB: Right. To shoot at.
WS: That’s the first.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Up down. In the same, the same, guns u/s. Up, down towering aircraft u/s. That’s the one. Then no, no aircraft. All that in, it’s a one day trip and it lasted, it lasted [pause] was it the 28th? Yeah. The 28th 12:50 and it went on. It went on about 5 o’clock at night.
CB: Right.
WS: For one trip.
CB: Yeah.
WS: For one.
CB: Because of things going wrong.
WS: Somebody should have done better there. Good job I wasn’t marking their card.
CB: So there you went. Then you went to Hooton Park. What did you do at Hooton Park?
WS: Hooton Park. I never knew what it was. I know what, I know what it is. And they had Bothas again. Did you ever? You didn’t fly in Bothas?
CB: No. No.
WS: Frightening. Absolutely frightening. But they just weren’t any good for anything. We got up and down with them but they had a bad name. Hooton Park. That’s in the Wirral Peninsula. Yes. Yeah. That was interesting that was.
CB: Right. Okay. So when did you go to the OTU? So you qualified as a gunner.
WS: Oh yeah.
CB: And qualified as a, you’d already done your radio operator
WS: Anybody could qualify as a gunner. It’s only, it’s — but yes. You had to do it, you had to do it.
[doorbell rings]
WS: That’s my daughter.
CB: Oh right shall I do? Oh she’s there.
WS: Julie. Two hours late. Is mam there?
CB: Okay. We’ll stop. We’ll stop a mo.
WS: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Okay. So you were saying? How did you feel about this? About the bombing.
WS: Well, yes, because I just, you live in an alcove in a colliery don’t you? You know how it is. And, and if ever there was it was a reserved occupation. None of us need ever join up. Well, you know it’s all volunteers anyway flying. But you didn’t have to join up. You were reserved like policemen. And them that didn’t want to go and dodged it. There was a few of them about. But I just thought I wanted to get in it but I didn’t want to go there. I didn’t want to go where the sun shines because I don’t like the sunshine. I abhor the sunshine. And I went to the hottest place on earth.
CB: But you were talking about bombing just then. And you felt you wanted to pay back the bombing.
WS: Yes. Yes.
CB: Go on.
WS: Yes. Well, but of course then I wasn’t sent to Bomber Command.
CB: No.
WS: That’s what’s in, that’s the bit that annoys me. I didn’t want to go to, I didn’t want to go to Japan or the Far East or Middle East. They’re not, it was the Germans I wanted to eliminate. They wanted to eliminate us so I thought I would like to eliminate them. Hitler or no Hitler. Whoever. They’re trying to make him a goodie now but he was no goodie. No goodie. The words come out ‘cause I grew up you see sixty fifty, reading the paper mostly for football interests but I can still see the photograph, “This is my last territorial claim in Europe.” Lies. Lies. Lies. And of course they’re still lying now. And that’s sad. Very sad. You can’t listen to liars who change your mind and changing and liars and then he marched in another one and keep on and on and on. That wasn’t nice in nineteen — to me it wasn’t anyway. Whether other people viewed it I don’t know. But [pause] but enjoyable at Hooton Park.
CB: So what --
WS: It was different.
CB: That was the radio school. Then you went to Silloth for the OTU.
WS: Yes. The, that was, that was the start of television. But —
CB: What? Gee?
WS: Yeah. Well, you know with the stripe down the middle and it was alright for —
CB: This was for navigation.
WS: It was alright for ten minutes, a quarter of an hour. We were supposed to be looking at it when we’re W/op AGs. We had three, you know in the Wellington and then we just showed it around. In fact I just come off the wireless set. I’d been on the wireless for two hours on May the 2nd. Then I went in the second dickie’s seat when I saw what I thought, never mind all the clever people, ‘Oh you saw the submarine.’ No I didn’t. I saw a long black object on this waterbed.
CB: Okay.
WS: Nothing else. Nothing new. Nothing. But people say, make it all sorts of stories up. Back to Silloth. It was interesting learning how the, you could pick up things.
CB: This is on the radar.
WS: But I —
CB: The H2S.
WS: Yeah.
CB: This is on the H2S radar.
WS: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
WS: That whatever.
CB: Okay.
WS: Whatever it was. And then from there to —
CB: What were you, what were you flying when you did that at Silloth?
WS: At Silloth?
CB: When you were using this equipment. So this —
WS: No, we used that equipment at [pause] at, on the Wirral Peninsula.
CB: Yeah. Okay.
WS: On the —
CB: When you were at Hooton Park? When you were at Hooton Park.
WS: It was Hooton Park.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Bothas at Hooton Park.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I think.
CB: So at Silloth.
WS: Yeah.
CB: You’ve got it as Number 6 OTU. So what were you converting on to there? On the training unit.
WS: Wellingtons.
CB: Wellingtons. Right.
WS: Wellingtons. Now, the reason, being there I flew with the bravest and the daftest pilot in the RAF. He was well named. Lovely man. Even though I got in trouble with him. I flew with him and I must mention this because it’s very very interesting. His name, you can’t forget his name. Bond. I am Bond. James Bond. Well, he wasn’t James Bond he was probably Willie Harry Bond but his name was Bond. And of course my best friend in London, his name was Bond. You see, I could never forget. He was on the, and he, you had to fly in Ansons when you first, when you first go to Silloth. And you had to fly from Silloth. This was, scared the life out of most people. You had to fly from Silloth. I knew every inch of the way. Silloth. Blackpool. Back to Silloth. Dead straight. Nothing complicated. Not at all. Three W/op AGs in the Anson. So Stevenson goes on first. I go on first. Then I had trouble getting through to Silloth. To the signallers up there. It was getting worse as the hour. Anyway me hour was up and I had to get off and another W/op AGs got on. I thought trouble here. So when I get back to the signals officer and I presented him with a blank sheet he wasn’t a very happy puppy. He said, ‘Not very clever sergeant.’ I said, ‘No sir.’ And the reason it wasn’t very clever? I had a blank sheet. And he said, ‘What’s the cause?’ ‘I don’t know what the cause is. I’m just learning how to —’ And when we land and come back I thought I know what the trouble is. He decided in his infinite wisdom I think. He did it regular. He’s very clever at it. Have you been to Blackpool? No.
CB: Ahum.
WS: You have? So you know the three piers. You fly over the top of them. Bondy didn’t. Bondy hedge hopped them. Three of them. And back again. Oh he’s got to do it both ways. I thought I know why I didn’t get through. So, so this signals officer said, ‘You’ll have to do it again sergeant.’ I thought, ‘Yes, please.’ And so within two days I had to do it again. Who was the pilot the second time? If you put money on it you would have been wrong. It was Bondy again he smiled. I thought, nothing to laugh at I said. And he said, ‘Hello.’ So I said, ‘Hello,’ I said, ‘I didn’t do very well last time.’ I said, ‘I got a blank sheet and got a rollicking from the — ’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘You’d be better going on second.’ I thought how does he know when it’s better to go on? He’s flying the damned thing. He’s not operating the, the signals. So he, I went on second. And my heart bled for the chap who went on first but I thought well you have a dose of it and see. See what you get. And of course I got through. No problem. So it was pretty, were a bit and when I go to the plane the second time he had a smile on. He says, ‘hello,’ as if much to say I’ve seen you before. As much as to say, ‘I’ve seen you.’ Do you know what he offered and I’m sure this was a bribe and I’ve never had them before. I don’t know whether you’ve smoked them. Did you smoke?
CB: No.
WS: Well what, you wouldn’t know about these then. These are the crème de la crème in smoking. Now, I’m just telling you. I’ve forgot the name.
CB: Woodbines?
WS: Vulcan Sobranie.
CB: Oh right.
WS: So when I get up to the front I said, ‘I’ve finished.’ A flight Lieu’s a flight lieuy, ‘I’ve just finished sir.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘How did you get on?’ He knew how I got on. I said, ‘Alright.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘It‘s best not going on first.’ He knew. He knew where he was flying, you know. I didn’t get on and he, he offered. He smoked and I never. You’re not supposed to smoke on them. But he handed me. I said, ‘Oh, thank you sir. I’ve never had one of these.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They’re very nice.’ You had to be a flight lieuy and above to afford them. They’re about, do you know how much they are now? Well, I only know through paying the paper. Eight pound. Eight pounds for cigarettes to kill you. And so he said, ‘Have a cigarette.’ I said, ‘Can I smoke sir?’ He said ‘yes, yes.’ And one more story just about Flight Lieutenant Bond. Coming back somebody’s wrote a book. Kiwi. And I wish, I forget the title of it or else I would tell you willingly. When he. We used to go to Carlisle of a night and get a train back to Silloth. Him, this Kiwi and Bondy, obviously they were mates as well and they’d obviously been grounded for some reason because you don’t fly as a flight lieuy flying u/t air gunners. That’s not, that’s not what you joined up for. And he talked the driver, I nearly said the pilot, he talked the driver from Carlisle, from Silloth rather. No. Carlisle to Silloth. If they could have a go at the — and they did.
CB: Driving the train.
WS: The engine driver should have had his head. If anything had gone wrong there would have been big trouble. Great guy. And the book’s to verify that. There’s a book about it, a New Zealand skipper about his time at Silloth. If you work the times out I’ll bet you the magic eye can find the book and you’ll be, it’s worth a read if it’s only to tell you about Bondy.
CB: Just going back to what you were doing. So, what was the equipment that you were using that you didn’t get a signal on so you got a blank? What was it?
WS: The, oh that was —
CB: Was it a direction finder or was it —
WS: No. That was —
CB: Was it a type, it had got a screen had it?
[pause]
WS: No.
CB: Did it show you a map? What did it do? [pause] I’m trying to work out what it was that this thing was doing. That you were doing.
WS: No. No The wireless was just [pause] the wireless was just [pause] the wireless. No. Well, I didn’t. It wasn’t what we had when I was at Thornaby. So it was just, the wireless was just Marconi.
CB: But you were picking up signals of some kind but not all the time were you? What was it?
WS: I don’t know what. That was the first.
CB: So this is like a television screen.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But it’s circular.
WS: Yeah. With a line.
CB: And it’s got a cross in it.
WS: Down the middle.
CB: Yeah
WS: It’s in the book.
CB: Right. Okay. So this is a way of getting on to a target is it?
WS: It, it picks up all sorts of things. Picks up coastline.
CB: Yeah.
WS: There a certain amount of —
CB: Right. So it is an H2S type.
WS: Well, yes.
CB: Yeah. Okay.
WS: I’m not very —
CB: Okay.
WS: It was [pause] you could cheat a bit and look away. You shouldn’t look too long because you’re only this far from the —
CB: Yeah. From the screen.
WS: I don’t think it was all that good but —
CB: So then after you were at Silloth that’s when you went to Thornaby. And you were there for a year.
WS: To where?
CB: Thornaby. And you were at Thornaby for a year.
WS: Yeah. I was at Thornaby.
CB: And then, then you went back to Silloth.
WS: Yeah. Well, now see that’s where my logbook went astray.
CB: And this is the — oh right.
WS: You found that.
CB: Yeah.
WS: It’s lost somewhere around there.
CB: Okay.
WS: When it came back to me. And that’s me original one.
CB: Yeah. Okay.
WS: It just mixes it up a bit.
CB: Yeah. And this is a lot of trips over the Irish Sea obviously.
WS: Yes.
CB: From here you went to 303 FTU at Talbenny.
WS: Aye.
CB: In Pembrokeshire.
WS: Aye.
CB: What did you do there?
WS: What did? We did a couple of trips there. They were classed as operations. To tell you what I did.
CB: It was a navigation —
WS: Yes.
CB: Trip.
WS: They were navigation trips really. Nothing to do. Well of course you had to go.
CB: And this is on Wellingtons is it?
WS: Wellingtons and plus the, plus the fact that we, that Mitch and one of the W/op AGs was sent off. Was sent off to pick up our aircraft which we were to fly out to the Middle East and beyond.
CB: Right. So from there you flew out to Rabat.
WS: Terrible. Yes. Yes.
CB: Okay. What did you do there?
WS: Well, then it was in Rabat. Rabat. Well, well it changed. We didn’t fly to Rabat.
CB: Right.
WS: The RAF in their infinite wisdom had decided [pause] what’s the other place? Have I put it?
CB: Well, then they went to Cairo.
WS: No. But —
CB: And Wadi [Sadiki?]
WS: Well you see the first landing place from when we left. When we left —
CB: Talbenny in Pembrokeshire.
WS: No. No. No. Let’s, no, let’s go back. When we left —
CB: Hurn? Hurn, near Bournemouth.
WS: We left. Wait a bit. We left Silloth and we went to —
CB: South Wales.
WS: We went to Talbenny. Yes. And then from Talbenny we went to Bournemouth.
CB: Yeah. To Hurn.
WS: Hurn.
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s it. We were at Hurn.
CB: And that’s when you —
WS: We flew from Hurn.
CB: From there.
WS: To the place that changed.
CB: Gibraltar? Did you —
WS: Hmmn?
CB: Did you got to Gibraltar next? On the way.
WS: No. No. No. We went to [pause] Rabat’s there. They changed it. It wasn’t Rabat. Can you switch it off?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re just pausing for a moment.
[recording paused]
CB: Restart. Hang on.
WS: We went out the first night at this small place.
CB: Yeah.
WS: So it wasn’t all that big.
CB: Castel Benito.
WS: It wasn’t. It was quite big and Oliver, about four of us went out. I don’t know why we did but we did. Somebody’s stupid idea. And Harvey said, ‘You’re both for it,’ and ‘What did you do?’ It was always my fault. He said, ‘Somebody just pulled a knife.’ So Harvey had to, Oliver had to report it to the station commander.
CB: Your navigator. Yes.
WS: Yes. And on the ground this was. And they put them and they put the area out of bounds.
CB: Oh.
WS: But it was very interesting in the morning. When you went out from Blighty, from Bournemouth or Merton. Where ever I lived. When we went in the sergeant’s mess the communal mess they were. When you were in the queue, and this was a novelty to me, you had, typical American of course. You had to put your fingers up how many eggs you wanted.
CB: Oh.
WS: How many you wanted. We hadn’t had any eggs in this country for, very, even in the mess we didn’t know we had them. Private digs. So when you got there the eggs was all fried. Typical American. The eggs fried and just put on your plate.
CB: Fantastic.
WS: Wonderful. That’s the only thing that stood out about that. I said to Harvey, ‘I didn’t do anything,’ but, I said [pause] ‘Well,’ he said, ‘That bloke pulled a knife. ‘Well,’ I said, ‘That doesn’t mean very much.’ Typical Harvey. Oliver. Blame anybody but himself.
CB: Was that a military person who’d pulled the knife or a local?
WS: Hmmn?
CB: Was it a military person who —
WS: No.
CB: Pulled the knife? Or a local?
WS: No. No. It was a local. So they put that out of bounds. So they must have been worried about it.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Stopped anybody going in.
CB: Right.
WS: Just an ordinary boredom. Flying out to [pause] my birthday spent in, my birthday was spent at Cairo West.
CB: Okay.
WS: It was normal for my, I did have slight truck, it was nothing. Typical RAF. Painted with that stuff you know. Don’t know what they called it. It was a disinfectant. Anyway, the rest of the crew went to Alexander. Not Cairo. You know, we landed in Cairo. Joe was, I went in hospital in Cairo. I didn’t know they had a hospital but they did. And they all said, ‘Cheerio. See you when you get back.’ I said, ‘Thank you very much. Tell us how lovely it is at Alexander.’
CB: So from Cairo you then went on eventually to Mogadishu.
WS: Yes.
CB: The whole crew. You flew down there.
WS: Yes. Yes. Oh yeah. We flew from Cairo to a nice place. Well, it wasn’t a nice place but it was —
CB: Well, it’s a place called Port Reitz.
WS: Where?
CB: R E I T Z. Port Reitz.
WS: [pause] Port Reitz. No. We went from Cairo [pause] Where are we here? Cairo. 11th ‘til the 10th. That’s it, my birthday is the 29th of the 9th. So that’s four days. So I’d been in hospital a couple of days to Wadi [Said?] and I don’t know where that is. Wadi Said. And it’s quite a decent sized place in North Africa.
CB: Okay. Anyway, so on there then you’re, you took the aeroplane, your aeroplane all the way from the UK.
WS: Yeah.
CB: So you’re still in that plane.
WS: We’re still in that. And that was our plane number.
CB: Yeah. So then you went down. Where did you go from Cairo?
WS: Cairo to Wadi [Said?] Now from there to Juba. Juba’s the funniest place.
CB: Where was that?
WS: It was. In between. In between.
CB: Okay. And from Juba then that was just a staging post was it?
WS: Nothing there. Nothing there. Nothing there. People must have gone mad. I think they filled it. I think they filled the aircraft up with, with —
CB: Water?
WS: Cans. Cans of fuel. Cans of fuel. There was only one officer and it must have been an awful place. And then that was the short trip from there to —
CB: Mogadishu?
WS: To Cairo.
CB: Oh to Cairo. Right.
WS: Yeah. We did go. Before we went to Mogadishu we went. We landed. We didn’t, we didn’t go up to Mogadishu then. We went straight down from, we went straight down from Cairo [pause] from Kenya. We were in Kenya. Right. And we had engine trouble there.
CB: Oh.
WS: In Kenya. So we went down to Mombasa.
CB: Right.
WS: On Mombasa but by the time we got to Mombasa they’d changed it again. Mombasa was going to be the home of our squadron. 621 Squadron. It was the home of 621 Squadron. Just there’d been a number of ships sunk by U-boats in the trip around Africa.
CB: Yeah.
WS: You know, up. Up —
CB: Up the east coast.
WS: Yes. Up the east coast there and then turned around into. They wanted Japan so they had to be the big type of U-boat. The U859 was one of them. U852 was one of them and they, they changed Mombasa then. Just as we got there they said oh you’re not here now. Well we are here now but you’re not here now. We’ve moved up the coast to Mogadishu which reportedly moved and I read it a while back the last place on earth.
CB: In Somalia.
WS: It’s about right. Oh terrible. Terrible.
CB: Okay. So was, did that become your operating base?
WS: Mogadishu was.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Thank you love.
CB: And what was the role of the squadron? What was the role of the squadron?
WS: To stop the U-boats going up there. So we knew or you know, through, through Enigma out here. Very cleverly. I know it’s very clever. But again you see it’s very clever but only for navigators and pilots. They didn’t come to me and say, Oh I stayed with these people I’ve mentioned. I’ve read air gunners. I’ve got books that said, ‘I told the skipper this. And I told — ‘ You don’t tell the skipper nothing. The age old, my father would say, ‘If you’ve nothing better to say shut up.’ The skipper wouldn’t listen to you anyway. You. You were an advisor. Don’t get carried away with your job. You were an advisor.
CB: Right
WS: That’s why you had that scrape.
CB: Right.
WS: To say, ‘Alright navigator. You can come and have a look at the screen if you want.’ Which he probably did. I can’t remember. But people make out that they, they turned up. You don’t do that. Not even Bomber Command. No Commands. If there’s somebody on your tail you tell the skipper. But first you fire at the damned aircraft before. It doesn’t matter. The skipper doesn’t give a toss as long as you hit the aircraft if there’s somebody at your back. But that’s another story of fairy tales and no fairy tales here.
CB: So, on the aircraft you are actually trained as a wireless operator signaller and also as an air gunner.
WS: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
CB: On this squadron 621.
WS: Yeah. Well —
CB: What was your role? Where were you? You weren’t sitting in a turret at the back.
WS: No.
CB: You were doing a wireless operator job.
WS: I was a wireless op. Two hours. Two hours each.
CB: Right.
WS: The three W/op AGs.
CB: Right.
WS: Two hours on the set. Two hours on the set. Two hours [pause] There’s nobody in the front turret when you start. The set, the set, the IT, the ITV you know. We called it the ITV screen and then the rear and you go around from there. So on May the 2nd I, I was, I had been on the set and I’d just come off.
CB: Okay. Can I just clarify this? So, you’re flying along and you alternate. There were three wireless operator air gunners.
WS: That’s it. We were all —
CB: And you’d do two hours each.
WS: We were all the same.
CB: So you then go and sit in a turret when you’re not on the set. Are you?
WS: No.
CB: Oh. Where are you? If you’re not on the set where are you standing?
WS: I wasn’t. No.
CB: So, as a, as a signaller —
WS: Yeah.
CB: And air gunner — you do two hours on the set.
WS: Two hours each.
CB: Each. So where are you? Once you’ve done two hours what are you doing?
WS: Just operated from rear turret.
CB: Right.
WS: Spare. You didn’t go in the front turret.
CB: No.
WS: I went in the front turret because I’d sighted it and as I was sitting on the —
CB: So specifically, in this particular case. This is fast forward that on one of the sorties.
WS: Yeah.
CB: You saw on your screen a submarine. Is that right?
WS: No. No. I didn’t. I didn’t see it on the, on the, I saw it with —
CB: Oh right. Mark one eyeball.
WS: Yeah. I see it, I saw it there because, because the navigator in their infinite wisdom whose got all the information when you take off. It doesn’t matter who’s sitting where I was he knows that this is the line that the U-852’s coming up, you see.
CB: Ah.
WS: It’s been reported. But we don’t know that. But the pilot and navigator’s got a good idea where it is. Although Mitch in his infinite wisdom and he was no fool, he was on the toilet.
CB: Oh.
WS: He decides to go to the Elsan. Mitch is on the Elsan so the second pilot is flying. A bloke called Harvey Riddell. A Canadian. Nice lad. Never heard no more from him. I reckon he was killed in the Middle East somewhere. I’ve tried to get his name. Oliver tried but he didn’t succeed either. I went in the, Harvey took over the plane. The weather was diabolical. No question about it. Cloud. Rain. Everything. You’re not going to see nothing there anyway and the time then was probably just prior to 4 o’clock. I then move off the wireless set because that was somebody else moved on because we, you’ve got, you’ve got to have somebody on the wireless set. The ASV is not all that important. And then I [pause] only he must have spoke while [laughs] while he was on the toilet. He must have spoke. Harvey must have spoke and said, ‘The weather’s diabolical skip. What do I do?’ So he said, ‘Go down.’ Whatever. Not interested. Whatever. And as soon as he went under the weather — like this. Unbelievable. From that to this. Thank you love.
CB: So not, so what height are you flying at this stage? A thousand feet. Two thousand.
WS: Yeah. Not, not very, not very high. Not very high. But it happened immediately. It happened, it happens in seconds. The distance I didn’t know until Oliver tells me because he was, he’s got it worked out from when I sighted the submarine. It was about six or seven miles. I didn’t know the naked eye got so — my eyesight’s very good. Even today. I can read. I had me eyes tested Wednesday. I haven’t changed. My glasses haven’t changed. I haven’t got —
CB: Right.
WS: They’re the same glasses which I’ve —
CB: You’ve had for ages.
WS: Yeah. Which is luck.
CB: So you looked out because you’re in the front turret.
WS: No. I was in the second pilot’s seat.
CB: Oh you were in the second pilot’s seat. Right.
WS: Yeah. You see, because Harvey had gone.
CB: Yes.
WS: Mitch was coffeeing. Well, he should have been.
CB: Yes.
WS: But he said he was. And when, as soon as we went down I said ‘Harvey.’ As simple as that. I saw it as easy as that. And look. Did I see a submarine? I have never seen a submarine in my life. I saw a long black object.
CB: Right.
WS: Which wasn’t a ship.
CB: Right.
WS: It just looked, you know, like your tie laid down in the water.
CB: Right.
WS: That’s what it looked like to me. And of course I’ve done all the Q and all the U. Well watch officer. Is there a watch officer in the navy? Well you were to blame. But then like the First World War the man who puts his head above the — you win. You put your head up and I win. And that’s just the way it, he got the rollicking. He was to blame because he he should have been looking out for anything.
CB: For aircraft.
WS: For anything.
CB: So he was looking the wrong way.
WS: Yes. Yes.
CB: So, so you see the submarine, you tell the pilot. The second pilot.
WS: No. I tell Harvey.
CB: Oh. You tell Harvey.
WS: That’s when, that’s when Harvey —
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s when Harvey told Mitch.
CB: Gets — yeah right.
WS: He soon left the —
CB: Yeah.
WS: He soon left the Elsan. And Mitch was up there like a flash. I was out of the seat like a flash. And I went straight in the front because that’s the position you should be if you were there.
CB: Yeah.
WS: You’re not normally there anyway.
CB: No.
WS: It’s usually Mitch in the second.
CB: So you got out of the second pilot’s seat.
WS: Oh yeah.
CB: Down into the turret at the front.
WS: Oh yeah. Which is only from here —
CB: The guns, the guns are ready primed are they?
WS: Yeah. It’s, it’s only from here to the television.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: As close as that.
CB: Ratio, yeah.
WS: Yeah. And then it —
CB: And then what?
WS: And it just got bigger and bigger. I did nothing. People. Well, I did. I had my finger on the trigger.
CB: You gave it a burst did you?
WS: Because I could see what air gunners, anybody could be in there. Just an air gunner. But when you get the sight with that —
CB: Yeah. So you got it on.
WS: If you, if you press before you’re wasting ammunition.
CB: Yeah.
WS: And you might get jams. You’re told not to. That not’s technical. You’re told to do short bursts.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: To save that you know. And just short bursts. You don’t get no jams. I got no jams.
CB: No.
WS: How many did I kill? You don’t think I was counting them do you?
CB: How many bursts did you give?
WS: Well, how do I know?
CB: Right. But you just do so you immediately started firing is what I’m getting at.
WS: Oh no. Not immediately. As soon as I got within the range.
CB: Yeah. Which is what? What’s your range?
WS: Because they still hadn’t gone down.
CB: No. What’s your range? Four hundred yards or [pause] normally.
WS: It’s not an interesting job.
CB: No.
WS: An air gunner. It’s a doddle job. You just — the distance from there. The distance —
CB: But they were all on the conning tower so you got them.
WS: Yeah. Well they weren’t all in but they were trying to get in damned quick.
CB: Yeah. Into there.
WS: I actually saw them running along the —
CB: Oh, on the deck.
WS: Yeah. You couldn’t help but, you couldn’t help but see them. I would have thought they should have manned the guns.
CB: So in practical terms. When you’re running the guns like this —
WS: Yeah.
CB: What did you shoot at first?
WS: Oh just the top of the conning tower.
CB: The conning tower. Right. And so —
WS: I didn’t pick people out and say, ‘I don’t like you.’’
CB: I didn’t mean that. No. What I meant was do you go for the conning tower first?
WS: Yeah.
CB: And they’re all running for the tower so they walk straight into it.
WS: Well, I expect this. I expect the captain had told everybody get in and get down but it was too, too late.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Too, too late.
CB: So, what happened then? So, you’ve clobbered all these characters on — the submarine doesn’t submerge does it?
WS: Oh yes.
CB: Oh it does.
WS: It went down. Oh it went down. So I thought, and Mitch thought too, when you spend hours just flying over water you probably don’t, you don’t expect, you should be expecting to see them they’re not. As well you know the size of the ocean. And within seconds of going over we thought whacko, he’s gone down which means we’ve sunk him. Well, what else can you think? It’s the first time. We then circled in a circle. Circled the swirl or whatever. Whatever. He went.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Whatever you see. And surprise surprise he came up. But [pause] but even I, in my infinite wisdom which is zero to think, to think, if, if we haven’t sunk them and he’s coming up that means we haven’t hit him. Well, that isn’t true either. We’d more than hit. There’s the submarine going along. The skipper by now knows what he’ll do. He’ll zigzag or whatever. So, Harvey, I suppose that the, because we haven’t got a bomb aimer.
CB: Yeah. He’s the bomb aimer.
WS: He presses the tit or does, does the skipper press it?
CB: Well, they both can can’t they?
WS: Eh?
CB: They both can.
WS: They both can.
CB: But, but normally doesn’t the navigator go down to do it?
WS: He’s got to get the figures out hasn’t he?
CB: Yeah.
WS: For the position and everything. Anyway.
CB: Yeah. Anyway, so were bombs dropped? Well they were depth charges. So you dropped, did you? Depth charges.
WS: Six.
CB: Yeah.
WS: You dropped them all, you see. If they had two lots —
CB: Oh. All in one go. Right.
WS: If you had two lots you could have go at this. Have another go like this. Make sure. It’s got to be, there’s a height down which I don’t know.
CB: Yeah.
WS: There’s a certain depth where it, where if you but the six has got to be dropped in a stick you see.
CB: Yeah. In a bracket.
WS: You can’t drop one at a time. You dropped the stick.
CB: Yeah.
WS: See, there’s, going that way you should drop one, two, three. Hoping two, three or four might, he might switch and get them. And when he come up and I used the words in my simple vocabulary. It come up like Blackpool Tower. Well, I knew that wasn’t right. So, while I knew we hadn’t sunk it I also knew we’ve done summat. Well, if he was alright even the simplest of person would tell you he’d be away running wouldn’t he? And he wasn’t was he? So, and I used the words Blackpool Tower which I —
CB: When he comes up. Yeah.
WS: We haven’t got that. But it came up. You know. I don’t know how submarines come up. I’d never seen any. But you would think that it would come up like a ship wouldn’t you? But it didn’t. It come up like that. And then flapped on the [pause] I’ve got the number one. I’ve got a better view than the skipper. I’m two yards further ahead of him. And I just, I saw the flap on the surface. I can see it. I don’t know if that’s good. And then within seconds. And then he opened fire on us.
CB: Oh did he?
WS: And he’d got an awful lot of armament.
CB: 37 millimetre.
WS: He must have some poor gunners because he never hit us and we were the only aircraft. By that, by this time of course we, we’d got the whole of the East Africa. Not that there was a lot of aircraft in East Africa. We’d flown from a horrible place. Scuscuiban, pronounced Shoo shoo ban. Diabolical area. Good that we sailed, we left from there in the morning but there was other, there was other stations but some of them just one aircraft. And 8 Squadron had been at, in Khormaksar for years and years you know. They’re very old.
CB: That’s Aden. Yeah.
WS: The squadron was. 8 Squadron. 8 Squadron, they were. And we were sent out there to help them I suppose. If they needed help, but [pause] And the more they fired though of course Mitch in his infinite wisdom you’ve got to judge his fire power and keep just outside of it. It would be silly going inside it else you wouldn’t be here to tell the story. And he’d be take great delight in sinking the aircraft that had damaged his. So, you just keep going in and out and by this time it’s red hot with information to ships in the, in the area. I don’t know if there was any ships in the area. Never there when you want them probably but, and we just kept on and on until our petrol level got as low as humanly possible. We had x amount of time to get back. And we did just have enough petrol. When we landed everybody was waiting to congratulate us and say congrats and everything like that. By this time we’d got, 621 had quite a few planes coming in but we’d done what we had to do. And there were about eight or nine aircraft and none of them sunk them. And he was a sitting duck. They weren’t a sitting duck when I, we went. Although they were. But he’d been down and chased. What we’d done we’d damaged the chlorine pipes.
CB: Oh.
WS: Whatever. Whatever it is and the skip, and one of the engineers shook his head to the skipper and said ‘we’ve got to go up and we’ve got to beach, beach it as soon as,’ which we did at [unclear ] There’s a coast place there where it had beached. And it was a success. And to think that we, we’d only ever seen one and we’d got ninety nine, we probably got a hundred percent success in as much as all the information we got, the RAF, after the navy had finished collecting all what they wanted you can have what’s left. They did the business. But it’s—
CB: But just to clarify this. So —
WS: Just.
CB: You’re sitting in the, in the co-pilot’s seat.
WS: Second pilot, yeah. Dickie. Second dickie as it was called.
CB: And you get, yeah. You then get down in to the nose where you’ve got the forward guns and there are two 303 machine guns.
WS: Two. They were like toffee apples.
CB: Yeah. But you’re spraying them.
WS: Yeah.
CB: Now, on the way over do you, does the plane drop the stick of depth charges as it goes over on the first pass or did you have to go round again?
WS: As you were going over.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know as a W/op AG and I’m not interested in looking down, I’m interested in looking —
CB: Sure.
WS: There. But even if I did I wouldn’t know what I was looking for. I only said ‘There’s the submarine. Go now. Go now.’ But of course he can switch when he’s gone under water.
CB: Yeah.
WS: So you don’t know. But then he, you have got to drop. The pilot. He’s trained to do. Suppose you were coming that way, we’re coming this way. You’ve got to drop them there. The first one there you might just walk in to the second one or the third one. So it could be the second, third. Could be any of them.
CB: Yeah. But what I meant was is they weren’t dropped on the first pass. When you were shooting they didn’t drop immediately after that did they? You had to come around again.
WS: Oh no.
CB: To drop.
WS: No. No, they had, no, they dropped them first time.
CB: They did.
WS: Mitch.
CB: Right. So that was good moving. Yeah.
WS: Dropped them first time.
CB: Right.
WS: And that is the nearest I can tell you.
CB: So, they were dropped. Not all in one go.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But in a stick.
WS: What they dropped —
CB: One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six.
WS: Yeah. You drop them all. That’s the sad bit. I don’t think they perfected.
CB: But it obviously damaged the submarine.
WS: No. It’s probably right in as much as if you. If you hadn’t, if you hadn’t dropped them in a stick and he comes up with — you’ve read his armament have you?
CB: Thirty seven millimetre. Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Terrific armament on a submarine. Could blast you out of the skies and blow you to kingdom come. We couldn’t kill dead flies with two 303s and a four at the rear. With four at the rears. Good if you hit somebody but it’s —
CB: So, after the first pass. After the first pass.
WS: Yeah.
CB: When you did the shooting —
WS: Yeah.
CB: And then the bombs, the depth charges were dropped.
WS: Depth charges.
CB: Was any more fire. Did you, from the front or the rear turret, did they shoot again?
WS: No.
CB: Right.
WS: No. Because, only because he was up in, when I told you he’d come up and I think, I remember Mitch saying, ‘Take some pictures Harvey.’ And he was in his position then. So with the camera. Because if you, if you hadn’t dropped them then he could have blown you out of the skies with —
CB: Yeah.
WS: The next time.
CB: How far out to sea was this? Five miles?
WS: I can’t. I can’t —
CB: Twenty miles? Could you see the coastline from where you were flying?
WS: I couldn’t —
CB: No.
WS: And I wasn’t [laughs]
CB: No.
WS: And I wasn’t looking.
CB: Okay.
WS: I was looking at getting back to base like everybody was. Because at the time we’d been out or when we took off from when we timed from when I saw that I don’t know. I didn’t time. Oliver might know. He might not. I don’t know.
CB: We’ll ask him later.
WS: Yeah.
CB: Okay. So, anyway the submarine was then guided to the shore. Pointed at the shore and beached.
WS: Yeah. Well, you knew then —
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s where he was going. Yes.
CB: Right. And the other aircraft from didn’t, they didn’t manage to hit it but they did bomb it did they?
WS: Well, again I don’t know but he got to the shore alright. Well —
CB: What happened then?
WS: Well, we were gone then.
CB: No. But when they got to the shore what happened?
WS: Well, he tried to scuttle it.
CB: Right.
WS: And made, I would say what’s the word? Hack?
CB: Hash.
WS: He made a hash of it. Yes. Made a hash of it. Whether he was thinking about his self I don’t know. It was his first journey as a captain. He’d been on other things you know. But it was his first journey out from Kiel as a submarine commander.
CB: A commander. Yeah. But he’d already sunk ships. He’d already sunk ships hadn’t he?
WS: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
WS: He’d sunk a ship that was built in, in Hartlepool.
CB: Oh right.
WS: The Peleus. And that’s why he was shot at dawn. Like I told you there was only five days difference between Mitch being killed and him shot at dawn. Irony isn’t it? The twist of fate.
CB: But he, the captain, Eck had been shot because of what he did. So what had he done?
WS: Oh he’d machine gunned, this is naughty as an officer —
CB: Survivors.
WS: This is naughty. He’d machine gunned people from the Peleus in the water.
CB: After he’d sunk the ship.
WS: It was your duty as an officer. As a captain and an officer to bring people on the ship. Find out what you can from them. Put them back out to sea if you should. In a boat if you don’t want them on your boat. Put them back there and then go. He didn’t do that. He, I think it was probably a slip of memory or —, no. It wasn’t. It was words from and I know with the research I’ve done, with the German High Command. I’ve read it from Kiel. That’s where. I’ve just read it. The officer, the officer in charge has got to be completely in charge but donates who’s in charge of the submarines. They were a bit like Hitler. They’re not going to do anything but they do do summat. And he said everything’s got to be obliterated because it’s your life. Now, that’s one thing telling that and when the skipper does that it’s wrong isn’t it? The trials you see it was found that that was naughty and that was wrong. And even though they don’t do that at [pause] although we were far from not guilty.
CB: But what had happened was there was a lot of debris on the sea. Surface of the sea wasn’t it?
WS: There was quite a few of them saving but again, as the famous saying, these are my saying, well my father saying — you live by the sword you die by the sword. Well, he cleared everybody which he thought was right so as everything’s, he can get away and people won’t see him. I understand what he has to do as a captain. But again it kicks you up the bottom when you, when you think you’ve cleared everything up and you haven’t. So four people survived.
CB: Oh did they? Right.
WS: Yeah. Four people survived and they found a way back to West Africa where the, where the Peleus was hit first.
CB: Oh.
WS: I don’t know how important the Peleus was now but it was just a tramp steamer I think. All different nationalities you know but and they got back to, they got back to port and that’s what, that’s why it came under the trials. And him and three officers were shot at dawn. And when we got back you’re talking about what he should do to clear up. When we landed back at Khormaksar, at Scuscuiban at about [pause] it‘s, it’s in the book what time we landed back.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I don’t know.
CB: In your logbook this is. Yeah.
WS: We got back at [pause] 7 o’clock at night. Well, the, the [pause] the fitters. I thought oh no. I’m not going back there again. But that’s what you’ve got to and you’ve got to do. So they decided that they had to fill up again just in case. He could have escaped but there was far too many aircraft in the vicinity so he didn’t escape. But anyway we did go out at 7 o’clock didn’t we? That night.
CB: Right. Right.
WS: Nothing happened. It was just beached by the time we got there. But, oh and when we got back from the first trip. When they were filling up, one of the fitters, fitter lad said, ‘This is your lucky day.’ And we said, ‘Well, yeah. It’s anybody’s lucky day if you sight a submarine.’ You don’t sight them once a year. So, 8 Squadron had never seen one I don’t think. He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘I don’t mean that,’ he said, ‘You had one tank completely empty and the other one not very good.’ I remember when we just jokingly said to Oliver then, ‘You left that bit close.’ Yeah’ Oliver said, ‘I’ll get it a bit nearer next time.’ Well, you don’t think about that. You just think about getting back I suppose.
CB: You hadn’t been hit by any of the submarine fire had you?
WS: No. No. That’s what I say. While they were escaping by the time we’d got there.
CB: Right.
WS: So they were escaping. They were trying to get down in the conning tower. I’d never seen a conning tower but that’s where he was. I could have moved the turret sideways but I don’t see as there was any sense because there were two or three around it. Two or three bodies. I could actually see them, you know. I was nearly as close as you are so no problem seeing them on there. So I didn’t have any reason to move my turret at all.
CB: No. No.
WS: It was just, it was what they called plain firing but people could make a lot of it and say they did this and did that.
CB: So you’d, at that stage how long had you been out in that area?
WS: 4. 4 o’clock in the morning.
CB: Yeah. So you could be airborne for quite a long time could you?
WS: Yeah. Yeah. It, it was. It must have been. It must have been, the fuel must have been pretty low. And you’ve got to think then, and plus the fact that by, by the time we left the circle and going in and out just so to use up a bit of his, his ammunition. You’ve got to vary because some have, some has got different ranges to others.
CB: Of course.
WS: I don’t know the reason.
CB: Got to confuse the gunners.
WS: Mitch did. He said, ‘You had enough fuel to get to the end of the runway.’ I thought, charming.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Charming.
CB: Amazing. Was the, your picture on the wall shows a Wellington in white. What colour was the aircraft? Was it camouflaged in any way? The one you were flying.
WS: That was painted. I didn’t ask him to do this. He was on the squadron. He’d been at 8 Squadron. Then he come on our squadron. He just died Christmas. He just died last Christmas. Because he didn’t, they said he should have gone to the doctors and he said, ‘No. I don’t go. I’m not going to the doctors. I’ll just have antibiotics.’ He should have gone to the doctors. But his son is a very good painter. In fact that’s all he is good at. He’s, well because that’s all he does. His son. But the lad who did that his father must have picked the, I don’t know, it’s not a bad painting. A hand painting.
CB: But what I meant was that picture on the wall shows the fuselage white. But what colour was your aircraft?
WS: I think it was white.
CB: Right.
WS: I think it was white.
CB: And the wings are blue.
WS: Hmmn?
CB: And the wings are blue.
WS: Oh, well if that’s, I don’t —
CB: I just, for background. So, after the submarine incident then what? Yeah. So you’ve had the excitement of sinking the submarine effectively. Disabling it. Then your flying time didn’t stop. What did you do after that? In the days and months ahead.
WS: I don’t know. I don’t know. In the book Mitch and I went up. I went up. Mitch and I went up but I think that was before we sighted the submarine. Went up to Transjordan. That’s what it was called in them days. Transjordan. Don’t know why. Do you? Transjordan. I don’t know. We then went to a little island not far from where the, not far from Ben Abela right. Called Socotra. Have you? No? Don’t go there. You know what the king did there if you stole. Chopped your hands off. No messing. Got the tree and hand and he did. It belonged to, the Russians took over. I think the Russians still own it now. It didn’t belong to us but we went there and we were within a whisker. We were within a whisker of the U859. So, he’d got up in the meantime and this was about August time when it was the end of — it did get through but then I think he was sunk just before he got to Japan. So, we’d done a good job. And it was the, it was the end of submarines trying to get through to Japan. So in their infinite wisdom the British have, they [pause] yes.
CB: So that, your tour, how many, how many ops did you do to do your tour?
WS: Not as many as Oliver because [laughs] because he was a good navigator. Don’t ask me this because I can’t tell you and Mitch is not here to tell you. But a big chunk. He said, ‘Go and pack your bags. We’re going to Trans, we’re going to Transjordan.’ I don’t want to, I don’t want to go to Transjordan but when you’ve been at Khormaksar Transjordan was haven. Have you been to Kenya?
CB: I haven’t. No.
WS: No. Well —
CB: But Khormaksar is Aden.
WS: Khormaksar is. Yeah. Yeah, but what I’m saying is Khormaksar is diabolical. Ninety nine shirts this colour. Shirts, as soon as you put them. Kenya is not. Kenya is like this. And Socotra wasn’t bad. The climate how it was good I don’t know. But it was better. So the, we went there when the U859 was coming around which we learned later from my later second pilot who lived in Keighley. And the gentleman who, a gentleman lived near him whose livelihood was, if you never did — bringing up, bringing up gold from the, from the sea. Yeah. He had a diving, diving down and bringing up and he lived at Keighley where our second, second pilot came from. And he, he knew somebody and he knew that he’d got. Where he’d got it from I don’t know. He knew something about the U859 and we were within, we were within a very close distance of that but had got through to somewhere off India when I think somebody sunk it anyway.
CB: So, after that where did you go? Where did you go after that?
WS: When I come back to Blighty.
CB: Well, you went to Transjordan did you? You went to Transjordan.
WS: Yeah.
CB: And how long were you there?
WS: About six weeks.
CB: Oh right.
WS: Do you know what we were there for? Typical RAF of course. Aircraft instructor’s course.
CB: Oh.
WS: What aircraft? You don’t see any aircraft in there. I said, ‘What?’ All I spoke to Mitch was afterwards I said, and he was a big man, six foot odd, you know. I said, ‘How did you do?’ ‘Oh. Well,’ he said, ‘It doesn’t matter.’ I thought, ‘Ah, I’m doing better than you.’ I’ve got about seventy eight percent. So, that wasn’t bad. I don’t know what, I don’t know what it meant. When I told blokes back in the squadron they told me where to go. So I went there [laughs] But, but then we were, when we were away Harvey just flew a different aircraft. He thought it was great. I didn’t. And he was one of the unlucky ones you know because when he finished training in South Africa, he did his training in South Africa. I moaned about my flight sergeant. I know it was only pennies but it’s a lot of money to me. He come back from there I told you. And we went to, to he went to Blackpool. Squires Gate. Squires Gate. That’s it. That’s the name of it. And when he come back [pause] from there, and then Eastbourne. Have you been to Eastbourne? Do you know Eastbourne? Well, he was in a hotel, a big hotel on the front there. Did you see it? Where it had been half been rebuilt. Where Hitler hit it. Well he, the navigators were all in there.
CB: Oh were they?
WS: But they were out in the morning so they didn’t, they didn’t. Well he’d come back there. He’d come back there. He went through OTU like us. Silloth. Then went abroad. Did his tour as a sergeant. And then within weeks he was a flight lieutenant.
CB: Quick as that.
WS: Yeah. Well why? Ask me why. Well, because he was commissioned in South Africa. Could have done better I think. The, the, whoever was in the [pause] yeah. So he was a commissioned. I never got my flight sergeant but that was just pennies. But he was, he should have been. He looked, he looked like officer material. I said, ‘Bad luck Oliver.’ But he didn’t seem to mind. I didn’t get that. That would have drove me up the wall.
CB: So you, you ended up as a flight sergeant. You ended up as a flight sergeant.
WS: I —
CB: You became a flight sergeant.
WS: And then I become a warrant officer.
CB: And then a warrant officer.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But when did you get those two is what I meant? So flight ––
WS: I don’t think I got me flight sergeant.
CB: Oh just straight to warrant officer did you?
WS: I wrote, I wrote to the check people and they said it was, it could have been when I was up in Transjordan. You don’t think they are going to transfer statements and pennies up to Transjordan. No. It probably came through records at Khormaksar without telling. I don’t think I was very much interested anyway.
CB: No.
WS: And then I was, and the reason I was, and that’s when I went to Scampton as sports officer. Because I expect the sports officer had been demobbed.
CB: This is when you got back.
WS: Ahum.
CB: Well, so after, so from Transjordan you came back to where in England?
WS: Oh no. No. No.
CB: Where did you go?
WS: Back to Khormaksar again.
CB: Oh you did.
WS: Oh yeah.
CB: Okay. Yeah.
WS: But I enjoyed it there. Why? Well, because it was like Kenya. The weather was, the weather was very English. You know. I played football. I enjoyed that.
CB: So then? When, when were you demobbed?
WS: Demobbed in, demobbed, well, at Coningsby. I was probably demobbed [pause] I was probably demobbed at Scampton because I’d gone there. RAF Scampton. To be —
CB: Sports officer.
WS: Yeah. To be sports officer. Well, I would be I think. There was only two of us there.
CB: Then what? So when you came out of the RAF, what did you then do?
WS: Out the RAF. Blacksmithing down here.
CB: So this was 1945, ‘46 was it?
WS: I came down here.
CB: When did you come out of the RAF?
WS: August ’46.
CB: Okay.
WS: Roughly.
CB: And then what? So what did you do immediately after you were demobbed?
WS: Here.
CB: Why did you come down here?
WS: Well, quite easily. The reason I came down here I lost me, again Stevenson, and I didn’t lose this. I didn’t lose it. It was stolen from me. You know we used to sleep with the paybook under the pillow. Well, it puts a crease in your trousers. That’s the only thing I know. And I’d had a few drinks in Newcastle. I was looking for two minutes actually or [unclear] been with me. And when I woke up in the morning nothing under the pillow. So I went down to the bloke in YMCA Newcastle. And that’s when the story of [pause] That’s when the story of [pause] the paybook. Sixty odd years.
CB: In your, in your book.
WS: An event.
CB: Right.
WS: An event. And the bloke said, ‘Oh, it happens all the time mate.’ I go, ‘Oh it’s alright for you but I’ve got to go back to Coningsby and tell the bloke.’ But they were alright as it happened. But not nice when you’ve lost. And when the, the Express reporter, very words, remember them vividly. This was after I was married. We’d been out for a walk Lil and I and when we came back and then she said, ‘Someone is on the phone.’ And it was our, the Air Gunner’s Secretary from London. Lived in London. I think he was a policeman and he said, he started interrogating me and asked me if I — and I said, ‘Well what do you want to know about?’ He said, ‘Were you in Newcastle,’ blah. I said, ‘I don’t know but I probably was,’ because I used to go there sometimes. I had an aunt live in Newcastle. Quite a good way from the town centre. And then he said, ‘Well, they found your paybook.’ So when the Express get word because there’s a cut off in the papers isn’t there?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Between, yeah. So Manchester downwards. And the air gunner from [pause] it was in the AGA, Air Gunners Association. He was, he rung up the secretary and the secretary rings me. And that’s was how that was found. And they tret me well up there. Had a wonderful day.
CB: So what did you do when you came out? Immediately you came out. For a job.
WS: I then worked at, I then worked, just worked at Beaconsfield as a blacksmith. I went back to blacksmithing.
CB: But why did you choose down here?
WS: Because I’ve already said —
CB: Because of Halton.
WS: I’d already said to the reporter of the, of the Express —
CB: Yeah.
WS: Like, up there. He asked me that question, ‘Why have you come down here?’ And the words are just as vivid today as they were then, ‘I thought the cherries were sweeter.’ Meaning the choices. We’d got more choice.
CB: So as a blacksmith where did you work?
WS: Joe Lake’s, Beaconsfield. Wonderful. Wonderful man. He’d been a First World War soldier.
CB: Oh.
WS: It’s not there now. They’ve pulled it down. It’s a shame.
CB: What was it? What was it called?
WS: Lake. Lake and Mockley.
CB: Oh. Lake and Mockley.
WS: Do you know them?
CB: I don’t. No.
WS: Lake and Mockley was the name. And then I had a few changes after then.
CB: So where did you meet Lillian?
WS: Here. Wycombe.
CB: Right.
WS: Wycombe. At the town hall. It’s been pulled down has it?
Other: No.
WS: They ought to have done.
Other: Valentine’s Day.
WS: Was it?
Other: 1947.
WS: Don’t know who thought of that.
Other: Mum thought he was Polish because she couldn’t understand him [laughs]
CB: So, you spent all your life at Lake and Mockley when you came down here.
WS: No. No.
CB: What did you do after that?
WS: I went to. Well I was very good at welding to have been a blacksmith. I’ve done fire welding. Half the people that repairing wood I just went repairing motor cars. Panel beating. I switched to panel beater.
CB: Oh right.
WS: And that gave me a fair living. Fair. Not great.
CB: Well, we’ve done really well. Thank you very much indeed. And Lillian had been in the RAF as well.
WS: Yes. It’s in the book there.
CB: Okay. Good. One other thing that came out early on was you talked about how people were in reserved occupations and that’s what yours was. But you volunteered.
WS: Oh yes.
CB: What about this business of LMF. Did you come across that?
WS: No. I didn’t you know. But it annoys me. First, it’s not a thing to talk about.
CB: No.
WS: All I know is this. Again, this is typical RAF. Well, it’s just the RAF I’m afraid. I told a wing commander at Halton that and all last Monday when we were up there. He said, ‘I understand.’ He come from Edinburgh. He wasn’t born in Edinburgh but he was an Edinburgh lad. Charming man. Have you met him?
CB: No.
WS: Oh you want to meet him. They’ve got a lovely little museum there now.
CB: Yeah. I’ve been in it. Yes.
WS: Have you been in it?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Well, the bloke kept showing me the Wellingtons. I just, I said, ‘I’ve seen a few of them.’ Yes. He said, ‘Yes. I know what you mean.’ NCOs were disgraced. Now, wait a bit. LMF. I haven’t delved into the business but I think in my little mind there’s no difference between a sergeant and an officer. If you’ve the sickness or the fear of or decided flying is not for me half way through and it gets the better of me that’s a sickness. The Americans recognised that. We don’t. All I’m saying that is if you’re a sergeant you were disgraced. Did you know anything about it?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
WS: On the square. Ripped off. And sent to the Orkneys. I say the Orkneys. Cleaning toilets out somewhere. Now, officers weren’t tret like that. They didn’t have any parades for any officers who had LMF. I think that was wrong. But then that’s Britain and that’s how the service works. I don’t know if they had LMF in the army. They must have had surely. In the trenches. Must have had. Or the navy. All I know is about is me. You know, you don’t, you don’t know the, you don’t know the difference.
CB: No. That was really good. Thank you very much.
WS: It was.
CB: Fascinating.
[recording paused]
WS: I’m just saying I don’t understand it. That’s why I said —
CB: We’re just talking about the time out in the Middle East. And so it wasn’t based on the number of operations that you did.
WS: No. It wasn’t. It wasn’t else I would have been —
CB: How long were you there?
WS: Else I would have been six months later just because I’d been up to Transjordan. I didn’t want to go to Transjordan. Mitch said, ‘Get your bag out. We’re going to Transjordan.’ And when he said aircraft recognition I didn’t stop laughing when I left him. I didn’t dare laugh when he was there. I expect he was happy to have a rest. I didn’t want to have a rest. But see what I mean it’s —
CB: So what we’re getting at is that you were out there for a year.
WS: A year. And all the, all the crews that started the squadron in when they —
CB: At OTU.
WS: When it was formed, when it was formed 621 Squadron, when we went up to London, what do you call him, my mate Bond asked one of the high ranking officers. All the plaques were along there except ours you see. So he said, ‘How come we’re not on there?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘621.’ Oh well,’ he said, ‘You were a special squadron.’ Special squadron. ‘You were a special squadron so they don’t put them up there.’ Well, I said, ‘That’s rubbish.’ ‘Well, no,’ he said, ‘You probably weren’t formed long enough.’ Well, I said from 1943 to ’49 or ’50. I don’t know when it was and I wasn’t interested. See what I mean?
CB: Yeah.
WS: He didn’t, he didn’t think that.
CB: It says here that 621 Squadron was formed at Port Reitz, Kenya on the 12th of September 1943.
WS: Yeah. And when was it closed?
CB: And it was disbanded when the number was changed to 18 on the 1st of September 1946.
WS: How many years ago was that?
CB: So that’s three years.
WS: They were going a bit longer than that. Well, he’s right then. Three years.
Other: So they can actually change the name of a squadron.
CB: Well sometimes because it’s a high squadron number.
WS: 18. They had Lancs didn’t they?
CB: Yeah. Probably. But anyway it was a complicated —
WS: It is.
CB: Situation. But they had so many squadrons they couldn’t continue them all.
Other: Oh I see.
CB: And what they’ve done is to keep the lower numbers because they were the ones by definition that were the oldest.
Other: Okay.
CB: Because they were formed in the First World War.
Other: Oh I see. Oh okay. That’s interesting.
WS: Yeah. It is.
CB: So how often did you fly on balance when you were out in Mogadishu, Khormaksar or whatever? Every day or every other day.
WS: About two hundred and fifty hours you see. That’s if you take a Bomber Command tour I was going to say I’m not saying you would do it one year but you could do nearly three tours in one year. Assuming you, I’ve got the survival rate. The survival rates are not all that high. In fact they’re pretty low. But for the length of time we were out there and the lads were lost in a short space of time. I remember one crew. I don’t who they are now. I wish. I’ve got their names and I have got the names of all the initial crews. They [pause] four of the five or three of the five of this crew was commissioned in the morning. Like, say they got the commission come through tomorrow morning then they’ll do tomorrow morning. And they were lost that day.
CB: Oh were they really?
WS: So that’s a loss if it’s, see you didn’t have to if, if you get in the water you’re deaded anyway. You can have all the rigmarole all your life but it’s, the ocean is a big, big place. I’m just saying so. So why did they? I don’t know. They probably, thought a year was long enough. My mate was, I told you he was out in Pershore who joined up with me. I think he went around the bend. Well you would there.
CB: He was there all the time. In Pershore.
WS: All the time. From Barry.
CB: From Barry.
WS: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Barry Island.
WS: Well he probably thought I’d never been to Barry.
CB: So we’re talking about being in a very hot area. You’re flying regularly. What did you do when you weren’t flying?
WS: Very little I should think.
CB: Football?
WS: Football.
CB: Swimming?
WS: There wasn’t much. Football in Khormaksar was diabolical. Sand’s glass. We all know that. You just had to go down. Even when I was on the boat coming home the doctor at the, halfway up the stairs said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘Oh it’s nothing. Sir. It’s just a little graze.’ ‘Take it off. And of course everybody is on the boat laughing at me. Nothing to laugh at. So, I took it off. Well, it was just an ordinary [pause] probably a bit infectious you see with the sand, ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘Put it on and see the MO in the morning.’ See what I mean? They —
CB: So what you mean is that when you fall over playing football on the sand it cuts you badly in the knee.
WS: Yeah. Diabolical.
CB: Okay.
WS: Diabolical.
CB: Right.
WS: We had, we had an officer bought, two officers, got to belong to officers to feed them. Got the photographs. I can see them now. Well, I didn’t mind the gazelle. And I’ve read letters about that. I reckon. they said it had a withered back leg. If you read about gazelles now. When cheetahs are after them where do they bite? Well, there’s only one place they bite because the gazelles are faster than them over short distances. I reckon he had its leg nipped off. Anyway, he was friends with the cheetah. My officer had bought a cheetah. I know. And he’d got to feed it.
Other: I’d have been a bit worried —
WS: Must have had more brains than sense. And they were walking around this when I was playing one day and I didn’t like the look of it at all, but I don’t know if it was harmless.
Other: I’d have been worried about it eating the football.
WS: Ridiculous. Bloody ridiculous.
CB: Just finally you’re, you’re in the, are you in the British Legion?
WS: I’m in the Legion. I’m in the RAFA.
CB: The RAF Association.
WS: Yeah. Still getting them. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. That’s really good.
WS: Yeah.
CB: And do you go to meetings of the RAF Association?
WS: Well no. But purely because now I’ve lost the car.
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s the only reason.
CB: Good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: There’s a correction in the interviewer’s comment about the radar in training. It’s not H2S but it was the ASV Mark 2 radar. The Mark 8 Wellington flown by Walter had an ASV Mark 3 in a nose blister centimetric radar.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Walter Raymond Stevenson
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-12-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStevensonWR151202
Format
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02:19:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Walter Raymond Stevenson volunteered for the RAF as soon as he was eighteen and trained as a wireless operator/air gunner, learning Morse code at RAF Yatesbury. He flew with 'sprog' pilots as they trained and was posted to Number 3 Air Gunnery School at RAF Mona. He was flying in Bothas, which he disliked, before converting to Wellingtons. Despite hating the sunshine, he was posted to a number of locations in the Middle East and Africa. He served with 621 Squadron whose role was to prevent German submarines from attacking shipping. He details the operation where he sighted submarine U852 which the crew bombed with depth chargers, visibly damaging the submarine. The commander of that submarine was later executed for the war crime of firing upon the survivors of the sinking ship, The Peleus. After demobilisation Walter returned to blacksmithing before switching to car repair work. </p>
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Kenya
Somalia
Middle East
Indian Ocean
Egypt--Cairo
Kenya--Mombasa
Somalia--Mogadishu
North Africa
Africa
South Sudan
South Sudan--Juba
Sudan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-10
1941
1942-05-02
1943-02-24
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Walter’s earliest memories are of being hospitalised with smallpox. He enjoyed school but left at 14. Unwilling to become a collier he migrated through butchery to blacksmithing for an occupation, but he ‘hated’ doing this. Whilst his was a reserved occupation, he wanted to join Bomber Command and ‘pay back the bombing’ that the Germans had done.
Walter was ‘called up’ to RAF Squires Gate, Blackpool for ‘square bashing’. Despite being informed that blacksmiths and joiners were desperately needed, but Walter was equally fixed on becoming aircrew. Here he learnt Morse code. Next was RAF Yatesbury to learn wireless telegraphy, before qualifying as a radio operator. He was then posted to 608 Squadron RAF Thornaby, Yorkshire, a Costal Command station. After a year there, Walter went to No 3 Air Gunnery School RAF Mona, Anglesey. Walter trained using the Botha which he thinks is a ‘horrible one’ and became a qualified air gunner. Then came RAF Hooton Part, Wirral Peninsula and OTU RAF Silloth, Cumbria. At Silloth Walter was a W/op AG flying in Wellingtons. Here he met ‘the bravest and daftest pilot in the RAF’, called Bond, James Bond. Walter was now sent to 303 FTU RAF Talbenny, Pembrokeshire.
Walter was sent to RAF Hurn, Bournemouth. From Hurn he flew to Gibraltar and then to RAF Rabat, Cairo, Middle East Command, Egypt. He whole crew then flew via Juba to Mogadishu. Before he could arrive, they were diverted to RAF Eastleigh, Mombasa, Kenya. Walter was to fly from Scusciuban, Somaliland on detachment from the squadron. He feels that this location was ‘diabolical’. There were three W/op AGs in the crew, and they rotated the wireless operator’s role with two hours on the set. The set was technically known as the IT but amongst the crew as ITV.
The navigator knew the U-852 was surfacing and its possible location. The plane was unable to fly high due to low cloud cover, so Walter was able to visually sight the U-Boat from the second dicky seat. He moved to the front air gunner’s position, and after firing on all those in or moving to the U-Boat’s conning tower, it submerged. The plane circled the area thinking that the U-Boat was ‘Whacko’ and saw it re-surface, so depth charges were dropped in a ‘stick’. The gunner aboard opened fire with 37mm. Walter feels that they were poor gunners as the plane was never hit and they were the only aircraft in the sky. After the attack to U-Boat was guided to the shore and breached. The captain was executed with two other officers from the crew as war criminals for their behaviour earlier in the war.
Walter was sent on with his squadron to assist 8 Squadron in Ade, where they received ‘red hot’ gen about the shipping. He was posted to Khormaksar then Transjordan. He was there for about six weeks for the RAF Aircraft instructor’s course, before returning to England.
Walter was never confronted with a case of LMF but is both annoyed by it and understands that it was something never discussed. He describes the differing treatment to NCOs and Officers with LMF as NCOs were punished for it, but Officers were not.
Walter was posted as a warrant officer to RAF Scampton to be the Sports Officer. He was demobbed at either RAF Conningsby or RAF Scampton in August 1946. He returned to blacksmithing, married Lilian at the Town Hall in Wycombe in 1947. Walter is in the Royal British Legion and the RAFA. He no longer attends meetings as he is without a car.
Claire Campbell
621 Squadron
8 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Botha
lack of moral fibre
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Mona
RAF Silloth
RAF Thornaby
RAF Yatesbury
sanitation
submarine
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1171/11740/PMortensenJC1803.2.jpg
2902abff131d5b25fa39163e7da37336
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1171/11740/AMortensenJC180917.1.mp3
54eab7ebac5dce038fc42a6a53cfc8f2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mortensen, James Christian
J C Mortensen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer James Mortensen (1924, 2209575 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 149 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mortensen, JC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Warrant Officer James Mortensen of 149 Squadron, at 2.30 on Monday 17th September 2018 at his home in Leyland, near Preston. First questions if you don’t mind James, if you would just confirm your service number for us and your date of birth please.
JM: Double two o nine five seven five. [Laughs]
BW: You never forget that, do you?
JM: You never forget it. [Laughs]
BW: And what was your date of birth?
JM: 27th 12th 1924.
BW: Which makes you currently 93.
JM: Correct.
BW: Where were you born and where did you grow up, you mentioned -?
JM: Liverpool.
BW: Liverpool. Whereabouts in Liverpool, actually in the centre?
JM: Aigburch, Liverpool 17.
BW: Okay, and Aigburch, that’s an unusual spelling, isn’t it. A u g -
JM: A i g b u r c h.
BW: And along with your mum and dad did you have any brothers and sisters?
JM: Yes, I had two sisters and a brother.
BW: And were you in between, or were you the older brother?
JM: Yeah, I was third, [laughs] I had two older sisters and a younger brother.
BW: And what was home life like in Aigburch, was it quite a nice area?
JM: It was very good, my father was a detective in the police.
BW: What did your mum do?
JM: She just stayed at home [laughs].
JM: Unfortunately, she died in 1937. Very, very young. [Pause]
BW: So you would have not been so old yourself, about nine.
JM: About thirteen, fourteen that’s all.
BW: Thirteen, okay. And whereabouts did you go to school?
JM: St Anne’s Church of England School.
BW: Was that the, was that your first one, was it a primary school or - ?
JM: It was a primary school, yes. And it was, it was a church school right through, from five to fourteen.
BW: And you stayed there, as you say, until you were fourteen. I saw a school report that said you had a special aptitude for Maths and English, is that right?
JM: Yeah.
BW: Were they your favourite subjects then?
JM: Yes, [laughs] maths still is.
BW: Do you think you have a technical background, or a logical sort of brain to-?
JM: I can always remember phone numbers. When I pick up the phone I can ring up anybody and I never look at the, I know the numbers. [laughs]
BW: And you came top of the class in your last examination.
JM: Yeah.
BW: So was that, I think they called it high school certificate, is that right?
JM: Yeah.
BW: So in your year, you were top of that year.
JM: Had my mother been alive, I’d have gone to university. But dad decided otherwise. He was a self made man, he was a detective sergeant and he reckoned that all his children should be the same.
BW: What would you have liked to study at university had you been able to go, did you have plans?
JM: I don’t know, I never considered, I might be, I’d have got there.
BW: I just wondered if you’d had plans –
JM: No.
BW: Or particular focus on things to study.
JM: I was always very keen on maths, probably would have been something to do with that.
BW: And when war broke out you would have been about fifteen years old then, wouldn’t you?
JM: Yeah, I was in the ATC.
BW: And that only started in 1941 didn’t it.
JM: Yeah, number 7 Squadron, 7F squadron, the Founder squadron. That was in Liverpool.
BW: Did you join in 1941, or did you -?
JM: I can’t remember when I joined.
BW: Okay.
JM: I’d got up to NCO or some sort, I remember that, but which I don’t know.
BW: Did you manage to get any flying?
JM: Oh yes, and also we did gliding. That was great [laughs].
BW: So was it –
JM: RAF Sealand we went for that.
BW: Okay.That’s in North Wales.
JM: Yeah, North Wales, Cheshire, Cheshire.
BW: Was it the flying that attracted you to join the Air Force or was there some other aspect to training?
JM: It was flying, flying.
BW: And did you have intentions to become a pilot at this stage?
JM: I went in as a PNB, you know, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer; and when we got the, we went down to Bridgenorth when we, when I was joined up. We went to London first, you know for the ordinary thing at Lords cricket ground, and then I was moved to Bridgenorth. A lot of us decided then what we were going to do. And I went as PNB, and they said well you can go as a PNB but there’s a hell of a waiting list, and you’ve got to go to America or Canada. And he said, ‘it’s a long course,’ he said, ‘of course you can go as a rear gunner right away,’ I said, ‘No thank you’. [laughs]. And he said, ‘well we’ve got a radio school going, as a wireless operator.’ He had a course. I said I fancied that, so I went on that. If I’d gone on the PNB course to America I would have had to wait about eight months, and then it’s about another eight or ten months flying, so it rewarded me well.
BW: So what year was when it you joined up then?
JM: ‘43.
BW: In June I think it was, so you’d have been eighteen.
JM: Yes.
BW: And that was, at that time the minimum age for joining wasn’t it, the earliest point at which you could join.
JM: I’m not sure.
BW: Were you, you said you left school at fourteen,
JM: Yes.
BW: Were you employed between fourteen and eighteen?
JM: Yes, I worked in an office first, as an office clerk, doing the postage stamp et cetera, and then I went into Roots aircraft, building Halifaxes.
BW: And what were, what was your trade when you were building Halifaxes?
BW: Well I got up to like a leading hand, in charge of, they were all of women then, very few men and I was in charge, I was only about eighteen, seventeen whatever it was, and I was in charge of older women, because at that time they wouldn’t let women be in charge [chuckle].
BW: And what kind of things were you instructing?
JM: I was doing the interior of the Halifax, you know the riveting all round. You’d hold the gun inside while somebody outside -
BW: So you had to be quite, exactly the right position.
JM: Yeah, well you went along in a row, and you went from one to another and if you missed it hard luck! [laughs]
BW: And did you enjoy the work?
JM: Oh yes, it were very good.
BW: Was, sometimes these shifts I understood would have been pretty long and very long working hours, did you ever get a chance for a social life in between at all, or-?
JM: Oh yes, we used to go out and enjoy ourselves, a crowd of us. [chuckle]
BW: So you, you joined up in 1943, and you decided to go to be a wireless operator.
JM: Yeah.
BW: And that was simply really because of the shorter waiting list and training time, wasn’t it?
JM: Yeah.
BW: How did you find the training for that profession?
JM: It was excellent. It was RAF Madley in Hereford.
BW: And how long were you there?
JM: About eleven months, it was a long course.
BW: Can you describe what sort of things you were doing during that time?
JM: Yes. We started off learning the morse code, and eventually you had to get up to a certain speed, I got up to thirty two words per minute sending and twenty eight receiving which was not right at the top, and then we learnt all about the TR1154 55 which was the radio transmitter receiver we used in the Lancs. And we had to strip them, well they stripped them down and we had to put them back together eventually when we’d learned all about the valves, they were valves then of course. [chuckle] We used to take the condenser out, or put a dud one in or a dud valve and you had to come in and sort it out.
BW: Presumably this was not just so that you could maintain the radio let’s say in daylight hours in the aircraft, taken out, potentially you would have had to look at a problem with the set in the aircraft at night as well.
JM: Yeah.
BW: Were you training in fairly realistic conditions, in the sense would they turn the lights off to try and recreate night conditions or anything like that?
JM: No.
BW: Just for practice -
JM: Not that I can remember.
BW: Okay. I believe you began your training from then on Wellingtons, your sort of aircrew training.
JM: Yeah.
BW: Do you recall where that was?
JM: It’s all in me log books this. I can’t remember them all.
BW: Okay.
JM: We had Blenheims as well.
BW: So you learnt on Blenheims too?
JM: But on the radio school we were in Percival Proctors.
BW: Okay.
JM: And Avro Ansons and then the flight things for the radio. We were taught it on the ground first and then we used to go two or three in, in an aircraft and take over.
BW: And what kind of exercises were you doing in the aircraft.
JM: Only air to ground communications, morse code and everything.
BW: How did you find that compared to doing it on the ground, any different?
JM: It were very good, very interesting. [Laughs]
BW: What were your assessments like on that, did you, you said you came pretty well near the top on the sending and receiving in Morse Code, was that the same in the air, did you find that, those easy?
JM: Well yeah about the same. [pause]
BW: I believe you met your pilot who would become your, let’s say your, your regular crew pilot while you were flying Wellingtons.
JM: Yeah.
BW: Was that Sergeant Heady?
JM: Addy.
BW: Addy.
JM: A d d y.
BW: And what was, what was he like?
JM: He was fine.
BW: Did you get on pretty well?
JM: Big, tall chap, he lived in Torquay actually. [pause] He was a sergeant then of course. Then eventually all Bomber Command pilots were commissioned.
BW: And so he, he obviously was potentially one of the last remaining NCO pilots, wasn’t he?
JM: Yes, he must have been because it was March when I got to the squadron, ’45 so only few months before, er after a, the war ended.
BW: And from Wellingtons you went on to Lancasters and I believe you started at 16 68 Heavy Conversion Unit.
JM: Yeah, Bottesford, yeah.
BW: Is that Norfolk?
JM: No, I don’t think it is.
BW: South Lincolnshire?
JM: South Lincolnshire I think, Bottesford.
BW: And how did you meet the rest of your crew? ‘Cause you’d meet at the Conversion Unit or thereabouts before going on to the operational squadron?
JM: Well when we met the skipper there were other people, other navigators and bomb aimers there and we all sort of got together.
BW: Did you, some crews met in a hangar, was that your experience?
JM: I can’t remember that. [Laughs]
BW: You just sort of met them -
JM: It’s seventy years ago [laughs].
BW: Do you recall once you got to Methwold in, was it Methwold?
JM: Yep.
BW: In Norfolk, and 149 Squadron, East India Squadron. Do you recall the rest of the crew?
JM: Oh, I know the crew very well, yes.
BW: Do you know what their names and roles were at all?
JM: Oh yes, I kept in touch with three of them.
BW: Who were they?
JM: I kept in touch with the pilot, we used to send Christmas cards to each other every year till about three years ago, then it stopped, I’ve heard nothing since. The navigator died of pneumonia many years ago. The rear gunner, I kept in touch with him and his wife wrote me to saying he’d died. The navigator died of pneumonia I think it was, oh many years ago. So there’s only the bomb aimer and the mid upper gunner that I didn’t know anything about, and I still don’t.
BW: Do you recall their names at all?
JM: Yeah, Bob Simpson the bomb aimer he was from North, up Northumberland, and Barney the gunner, the top, no, mid upper gunner he was from London. Whether they are still alive I don’t know, but they are the only two I don’t know about.
BW: Do you recall who the rear gunner was at all?
JM: Alf Fawcett.
BW: Alf Fawcett.
JM: F a w c e double t. I kept in touch with him and then it was his wife who rang, or phone, sent a letter to me saying he had died, many years ago.
BW: And when you joined were the rest of them all NCOs, were they all sergeant aircrew like you or were any of them -?
JM: All except for the flight engineer, he was the older one of the lot. He remustered from ground crew. So he was like the father of us all, he kept, kept an eye on us. We had a father figure amongst the crew.
BW: And who, do you recall his name, who he was?
JM: Oh gawd, it’ll come back to me, I can’t think of it all but.
BW: No worries. And you said you, said earlier, that you flew with a reduced crew and there was only two gunners.
JM: We only ever had two gunners – a mid upper and a rear gunner.
BW: Okay.
JM: We never had a front gunner, the bomb aimer used to do that. And if we had a mid under, I used to do the mid-under. [pause]
BW: What was, what were the facilities like on the base at Methwold? Do you recall? Did you all share the same accommodation or were you in the sergeants mess, or -?
JM: We had a sergeants mess, but then, it was, they had six wings, and every wing had a dance. So six nights a week we were dancing. [Laughter] and we used to bring in the civvies from Hereford, on the bus, which the WAAFs hated.
BW: So there was, there was quite a good social life through there.
JM: Oh yes. Brilliant social life. And at Methwold, they didn’t have a cinema in Methwold and we had one on the camp so we used to bring the girls in to watch any films and things. It was a very sleepy little village.
BW: Was it quite close by?
JM: Yeah, couple, two or three mile, that’s all.
BW: So you could walk in to town.
JM: Oh well, you wouldn’t walk it, but you could get there handy, you know.
BW: Okay. Did you ever socialise off, off base as well, did you go into Methwold for drinks or anything like that, or did you just stay there?
JM: Yes, they were very good actually, because. My wife has been dead over twenty years now, but when she was alive we decided we’d have a, we had a caravan, I used to tow a caravan, and we stayed in Norfolk, so we went to Methwold, and as we drove into Methwold, right opposite at the junction we came to, was a café, and I said to my wife, I said: ‘That used to be a pub.’ She said, ‘It’s a café,’ so I said anyway let’s go and have a cup of tea. So we went and had a cup of tea, and I said to the lady, this looks very, very like a pub we used to drink in, and she said come with me and she took me through a little side door, and in the back was the bar we used to drink in.
BW: Did it bring back a lot of memories?
JM: Oh yes.
BW: Did you share many of those memories with your wife at the time?
JM: Oh yes, they were very good, some of them [chuckle].
BW: So just thinking now in terms of your sort of operational duties. Can you describe a typical operation, how you prepared for it?
JM: Well the first thing we did, we used to go down to the wireless operator briefing, they’d give us the call signs and everything else we needed to know, and emergency come-backs and things, and then we all used to go to the main briefing and then we found out where we were going.
BW: And how long would the main briefing sort of take?
JM: It would be half an hour, to an hour you know, on the Berlin one, explaining everything you know. It was quite a long flight.
BW: Hmm. Berlin was a notoriously difficult target, how did you feel –
JM: That was our last one.
BW: Yeah. How did you feel when it came up on your list again?
JM: Um, I don’t know, at twenty years of age you’re not frightened, [chuckle] you should be, and I think half the time you felt it was an adventure, off we go again.
BW: So once the briefing had finished, what kinds of things would happen then? What would you be doing in order to join the aircraft?
JM: You’d get all your equipment together, the order they do things and then you needed helmets and then out to the aircraft.
BW: And would you be bused out there?
JM: Oh yeah, well either bused or in a open, or a closed in, what do you call, lorry.
BW: Yeah. A truck with a canvas back sort of thing.
JM: Yeah, yeah.
BW: And did you or any of the crew have any superstitions or particular rituals for getting on board? I mean some crews did, but it was particular to them. Did you have any?
JM: Nothing I can think of, the rear gunner used to wave to a WAAF friend he used have, as we drove down, taxied round the perimeter, she’d you know come out and wave to him and that was about it.
BW: So you would all get on the aircraft then, ready to start the operation.
JM: Yeah.
BW: What kind of checks or preparations would you make at that point?
JM: Well we’d have to set the transmitter receiver up for the frequencies we were going to use, because every hour we got a group message, any agency could come in between, but every hour they got a group message, and you had to set up for that and everything. If you went in a different aircraft, because you never always flew in the same one, somebody else would have a different call sign so you’d have to put your own in.
BW: And did it take long at all to, to get ready, were you fairly quick and efficient at doing it?
JM: Yes as soon as possible so as you could sit down. [Chuckle]
BW: And as you sort of taxied out would the pilot be calling the crew for checks or anything like that, would he - ?
JM: He would just make sure we were all in position and then he’d took over with the control tower.
BW: So right at the, I suppose, start of a, an operation then, [cough] how did it feel if you think back to your first operation, and you having done all that training in the lead up to it, do you recall how it felt to go on your first op, over Germany?
JM: I think they all felt the same, we went either to the Ruhr or Berlin, but they all felt the same. At twenty years of age you weren’t bothered.
BW: There were no butterflies in the stomach or anything like that?
JM: Well, I suppose there must have been, but it wasn’t really in fear, I always knew I was coming back. ‘Cause I always made arrangements where I was going the next night. Mind, it didn’t always work out that way.
BW: And being so close to the end of the war because this was around March.
JM: Yes, March ’45. Yeah.
BW: 1945. Did you feel at any point prior to that an eagerness to get on to operations before the war ended, or -?
JM: Oh yes, we wanted to go, I mean we did three or four, and then we had a mess up and we were sent to Feltwell on the bombing course.
BW: And was there any reason given for that, being sent on the course?
JM: Well yes, [chuckle] a difference between the pilot and the navigator, and where to bomb.
BW: And do you think that was a mis-identified target or -?
JM: Yeah.
BW: Okay.
JM: When we came back, because there was a camera on board of course. And they photographed where we bombed and we were sent from Methwold to Feltwell which only a couple of mile away, and we did a fortnight bombing practice.
BW: Were those the only repercussions from the incident?
JM: Yeah. That’s all that I knew. I don’t know what happened to the pilot, have no idea. But they still stayed with us.
BW: So they certainly weren’t separated or anything like that.
JM: No.
BW: Were there any particular incidents from other raids that you went on? You flew in total four operational sorties, two during the day and two at night. Were there any particular incidents that stood out from those?
JM: Only one, when we were attacked by a night fighter. That was fun, well it wasn’t fun then but, but the mid upper started on him and the rear gunner and then I had a mid under and I had a go but I don’t think we hit him. But it must have been about, well a month later, we got a DFM sent to the squadron, only one. I don’t know who got it, I’ve no idea, it shouldn’t have been shared between the crew. somebody got it I don’t know who, could have been anyone.
BW: So potentially that might, might have been over, over Berlin, on your last sortie.
JM: It could well have been.
BW: Were there any other, there were no other, no other incidents, you only mentioned the one.
JM: No, I saw a few Halifaxes and Lancs hit and go down, but we were never hit or anything, so, just that one, the night fighter came down, over, he never hit us, he just went just past us and went underneath and that was it.
BW: And you mention your role was dual role as a mid-under gunner as well. Can you describe what that entailed?
JM: Well, it was very, very, very few aircraft had a mid-under turret. Most of the time they didn’t. They was just all flat prone. But if we were on an aircraft that had a mid-under I used to use it, that’s all. It was very seld,I think I only used it once, I think.
BW: And what sort of –
JM: Because most of them didn’t have them.
BW: What sort of gun were you firing?
JM: The 303, four 303s or two, I can’t remember now. They were 303s I know.
BW: And how were you positioned in the aircraft, clearly you’d be sat on the floor.
JM: Yes.
BW: But were you just, was there any kind of seating for you to be in as there was for other gunners?
JM: No, not really. You sort of bent down sort of thing, you know, on the loo seat we had. But then only happened once so, all the other aircraft didn’t have mid-unders.
BW: And were you given any gunnery training?
JM: Oh I did some gunnery training, yes,
BW: And was yours –
JM: ‘Cause I went in as a WOP/AG first, then half way through they changed it to the S brevet for Signals, so WOP/AG finished and the Signallers took over.
BW: And were you, was yours the only aircraft on the squadron with the mid-under gunner or were there any, any others?
JM: We didn’t have a mid-under gunner.
BW: Or any of them –
JM: It was the wireless op that did it. [laughs]
BW: Yeah, but were, were there any other aircraft on the squadron, on your squadron, that had that facility?
JM: Some of them, I never went through them all, but some I flew had, I think there was two had it, all the rest didn’t. Cause there were very, very few of them had them.
BW: Interesting this.
JM: Because they were old ones. Because they were the early mark one Lancs that had the mid under.
BW: Okay. And were you, from your position in the aircraft, you are fairly enclosed, were you able at any stage able to see the targets you were flying over at all?
JM: I had a window alongside me.
BW: So you had a reasonable view.
JM: I had a wonderful view, [laughter]. It was only when, apart from the pilot and the bomb aimer in the front, this was the only window, it was smashing and I could look out and see what was happening.
BW: Do you recall what it was like flying over the targets during the day as opposed to during the night, was it any significant difference for you?
JM: You were more vulnerable during the day, you could be seen easier of course, but we never had any problems at all, apart from that once. Which was like a trip going out and coming back, dropping your bombs and coming back. We were very lucky.
BW: Fairly straight forward then, wasn’t it?
JM: Yeah. Fifty percent luck.
BW: And I believe you were also involved in, or your flights after the Berlin raid and after the surrender, involved POW repatriation.
JM: Yes.
BW: You had one around May.
JM: Yeah, brought Italian prisoners, our prisoners from Italy, brought them back and also dropped food supplies to the people in Holland, got a photograph there of it.
BW: Can you describe those kind of sorties? They are quite different.
JM: It was wonderful actually, because we were flying over, we had to fly pretty low to drop them, and there were thousands of people round the, wherever we were dropping them, and we were frightened of hitting them, so that’s the point, they were so, because the minute the stuff dropped they were on them, because they were short of food.
BW: And when you say it’s very low level, would you say it’s below two hundred and fifty feet, something like that?
JM: Oh no, I wouldn’t think so.
BW: Slightly above.
JM: Probably about a thousand feet.
BW: Thousand. Okay.
JM: But, we couldn’t be too high or when they dropped you didn’t want to damage anything. You didn’t drop from a big height. We’d have messed some.
BW: Did they, do you recall how they delivered the food packages? Was it a case of just opening the bomb bay doors or did they go out the side, the sort of the crew door or anything like that?
JM: We used to throw them out the doors mainly ‘cause you couldn’t put them in the bomb bay really.
BW: What sort of size packages are we talking about do you think?
JM: Oh, I can’t remember, but they ended up on a short parachute down there, but the minute they landed they were on.
BW: So I guess they were kind of um, boxes that you could lift and -.
JM: I think there’s a photograph there isn’t there, that one.
BW: Yes, so these show, this photograph happens to show a Lancaster with its bomb bay doors open.
JM: There must have been some went down from there.
BW: And that, looking at that, the people on the ground obviously seem pretty happy to see you. Was that something, does that photograph look pretty familiar to you, was that the kind of thing you would see?
JM: Yeah, they were all waiting, we had to be very careful we miss them.
BW: Did you fly many of those, or was it just the one?
JM: Must have been a couple that’s all. We also took the top brass over the bombing areas after the war. They wanted to see what damage had been done to Berlin and places like that, I forget the name now, there was a special name for it. But top brass used to come and fly with us, so that they could see what had happened and went back again.
BW: Did you have to give up your seat for any of them so they could have a look out the window?
JM: No, I had to stay there in case there was a call. [Laughs]
BW: And just thinking about the POW flights, what can you recall of those?
JM: Oh, that was unbelievable, they were really, down and out and we took cigarettes and chocolate with us and gave it them, they were pleased as anything, you know. More Brits we brought back, from Italy.
BW: How many do you think you, you managed to fit in the aircraft?
JM: I can’t remember that.
BW: Because it was quite tight those.
JM: But they, they made room for them, you know. But they were very, very, very [emphasis] grateful for being brought back.
BW: And were they all RAF POWs? The Army?
JM: No, no, the Army, Navy, not Navy, Army and RAF mainly.
BW: And did they look like they’d had a rough time at all or were they - ?
JM: They didn’t look very happy, well they did happy when we got there.
BW: You flew both Wellingtons and Lancasters. Did you have a preference having flown either, was there any – ?
JM: Oh, the Lancaster.
BW: Particular characteristics?
JM: The Lancaster definitely, much better. Also flew in a mosquito.
BW: Have you: what was that like?
JM: Well, it was queer how it happened. I was a Warrant Officer then, I believe, or a flight sergeant, one of them, and I was in the office and this bloke came, was a pilot, he came in and he said, ‘Are you busy?’ I said, ‘Not too busy why?’ He said ‘I’m going up for a flight’ he said, ‘I need someone with me.’ Okay, fair enough. Told them, say where I was going, I went out there was a Mosquito, [laugh] terrific.
BW: Do you recall where you went?
JM: No, we were just flying round generally but, terrific aircraft.
BW: It wasn’t at low level was it, was it er - ?
JM: Just bits and pieces.
BW: Really.
JM: Oh no, the only low level was in the air display down in London, that was er, murder. We all went down for Battle of Britain day and the Lancs were going to do a low level fly past and the pilot was Squadron Leader, I’ve forgotten his surname now, but he said, I was going with him, only two of us, I had to act as flight engineer as well. He said okay. We got there and it was pouring rain so we all went to the pub, then the sun came out and they decided to go ahead with the operation. Did a four engine fly over, then a three engine, then a two engine. He said, ‘do you fancy a single?’ I said ‘you can go to hell!’ [Laugh] And then on the way back he said, ‘I’m knackered’ he said, ‘you can fly it back,’ so I flew it back, only straight and level obviously, keep the height and that’s all. And then woke him up when we got near the drome.
BW: You had no issues flying it, or taking, taking control or anything?
JM: Hmm?
BW: You had no issues taking control or anything it was very easy to fly?
JM: Well we used to take turns apiece the crew, pilot used to come out and, not on ops obviously, but low, on cross country flying we used to take, he’d to say come and have a go I’m having a rest and we’d all take turns. [Laughs]
BW: How did it feel to fly?
JM: It was fine.
BW: That’s quite something, to be just given a go on a Lancaster.
JM: Mind you, don’t forget there was a flight engineer sitting alongside you and he’s a pilot as well.
BW: True. Were there any other incidents, or sorties that were particularly memorable for you?
JM: No, I don’t think so, only the low level one we did, over East Anglia, about five of us in formation. Oh god, cows and sheep running riot.
BW: So there were five –
JM: They had permission to do that of course.
BW: So there were five Lancasters, in -
JM: Formation.
BW: Were you fairly close formation?
JM: No, not too close.
BW: So fairly loose formation, and presumably shaped like an arrowhead, one lead and two either side.
JM: Yes, from what I can remember. Oh, it was great.
BW: What sort of height were you for that?
JM: I can’t remember that, it was quite low.
BW: And you were over East Anglia.
JM: Yes.
BW: At that point. Did you go over the beach?
JM: Over the sea as well.
BW: Excellent. And who was your CO? You mentioned, you mentioned him before, when you went down to display, who was your CO on that?
JM: Group Captain, I can’t remember his name now, but he was a smashing bloke. And when we went out on day trips and things, instead of him coming in the car he come in the truck with us. He was a real down to earth bloke, you know, very nice.
BW: There was a Wing Commander Cholton in charge of the squadron at the time. I don’t suppose he, his name rings any bells does it?
JM: No.
BW: No. Okay. So after the war ended and you’ve had these, er additional sort of sorties, what sort of things happened to you after that?
JM: Well I was asked to stay on, sign on and stay on. And I had, had three months of church parades, drills, no flying, and I got bored to tears and said oh gawd this isn’t for me so I came out. But I was offered a commission if I stayed on, but I didn’t, perhaps it was a mistake, I don’t know, I’d have got a lovely pension by now. [laughs]
BW: So at that stage you were a Warrant Officer.
JM: Yes.
BW: And sort of, potentially you’d been asked to consider going up to officer but declined it, and so this would be, your, your service in the RAF ended in –
JM: ’47.
BW: February 1947.
JM: It would be the end of ’46.
BW: And you asked –
JM: I wasn’t the only one, I think they asked quite a few to stay on, but I was one of them. After having, as I said, a few months of no flying, ‘cause we hardly ever went up after the war finished, apart from these special ones, and there was that and loads of church parades every Sunday, and parades during the week, no, I thought I couldn’t stick four more of this. But afterwards I thought maybe I should have done.
BW: And were you still based at Methwold during that time?
JM: No, I was up at Kings Lynn. Marham. RAF Marham.
BW: And so eventually in ’47 you asked to be demobbed, and what happened to you then, what, what course did your life take after that?
JM: Well, I was sent to Burtonwood, that’s where we got demobbed, and I got me suit [chuckle] and then I went home.
BW: So Burtonwood’s not too far from Liverpool, really.
JM: No.
BW: Near Warrington.
JM: Yeah, Warrington. That’s where we got demobbed, at Burtonwood.
BW: And did you go back to the family home in Aigburch?
JM: Oh no, my father had remarried then and moved to Hunts Cross, which was a [posh voice] superior area of Liverpool, so they say.
BW: [Cough] And was he still in the police force at that time?
JM: Yep.
BW: So presumably he had been promoted from -
JM: He’d made it to Detective Sergeant, yeah. And then he remarried of course, and we won’t go into further details, and I left home. [chuckle] He [emphasis] was all right.
BW: And where, okay, So, um –
JM: I went into digs then.
BW: And were you still in the Liverpool area, on your own?
JM: Oh yes.
BW: And what did you do for employment after that, after coming out the RAF?
JM: My uncle was in the aircraft industry and I went into Roots and they were making Lancasters, Halifaxes then. No, start again, [mutter] can’t remember, oh, um, what the heck did I do then? [Pause] I went to the British School of Motoring, as a driving instructor.
BW: And how long were you there?
JM: About fourteen months, because someone said to us there was a firm opening up at Speke, where they made Ford cars and they wanted delivery drivers. So, I had a pupil, I said ‘you’re going for a nice long ride today, we’re going out to Speke!’ And we went out to Speke, I went to see the manager and he signed me up right away, well, being an instructor. And a couple of weeks later I was delivering new cars and Fords, all over the country. Single cars. Then eventually I drove the car transporters.
BW: How long did that last?
JM: Oh gawd, twenty odd years, I was there a long time. I retired from there actually.
BW: And what –
JM: I’ve been retired since 1997.
BW: And what sort of things have occupied your time since? I mean obviously you spent time with your wife, as you say, before she died two years ago, sadly.
JM: We had, well we had a series of caravans in the Lake District. We loved the Lake District and still do, and we had a caravan near Keswick, so we used to spend nearly every weekend up at Keswick. Used to go for long walks and it was great.
BW: Very nice part of the world.
JM: Oh, I love Keswick.
BW: And, just thinking about the sort of commemoration and recognition given to Bomber Command and the veterans since, have you been to the Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln? Alright. Okay, but you’ve been to East Kirkby and to Coningsby and so on.
JM: I went to Madley once, that’s all. I’ve been to Lincoln.
BW: And did you go to the unveiling of the memorial in Green Park?
JM: No, no, I went to the Cathedral, because they’ve got all the information in the Cathedral there.
BW: And what are your thoughts about the recognition that’s been given to bomber crew since?
JM: I think it’s about time, I mean we did lose fifty percent.
BW: Yeah, the 125,000 crew that’s –
JM: Yes, that’s a lot of crew.
BW: And lost 55,000 plus.
JM: Yeah.
BW: And were there any additional or other memorable incidents that you can recall from your service at all?
JM: No, not really.
BW: Do you think we’ve covered everything?
JM: Apart from one when I could have died, [chuckle] that was our own fault. We went out to a night do, in Hereford, a dance, and the last bus was eleven something and it was about twenty to twelve, and the, what do you call it? the SPs came up to me, said, Warrant he said, ‘I am going to give you a chance, there’s twenty minutes to go till midnight, if you are still here at midnight we’re booking you.’ So, we stayed didn’t we, and we got booked. But anyway we came out, there were no buses, and it was about eight mile back to the camp, about one o’clock in the morning and we were all walking along, horrible snowing and all, it was a horrible night, and lucky a, one of the transports came along, with food things, we got a lift back in that. God knows how we’d have got back otherwise. [Laugh] Course we got seven days for that, didn’t we.
BW: Was that the only time you spent in –
JM: CB, yes. [Laugh]
BW: And when you married, what, what happened? You had, obviously a son, Dave and -
JM: Got another son in America, Andrew, and a daughter in the Wirral. My son’s coming over from America in November.
BW: So you’ve had a pretty good post war life really, haven’t you?
JM: I’ve a very enjoyable life.
BW: Yeah. You enjoyed your RAF service and you’ve enjoyed your time since.
JM: Yes.
BW: Good. Well, that’s all the questions I have for you, James, so -
JM: Good!
BW: Thank you very much for your time and the information you’ve given to the IBCC.
JM: If you want any other stuff, there’s photographs there maybe, if you want them, and the, just make sure they’re working.
BW: So would you –
JM: Short burst on each, front and rear, and you know, that was it, as I say it was only once I think, only once or twice at the most, I ever had [emphasis] a mid under, most of the time I didn’t. There were very few Lancs had them.
BW: And you, you’d never fired your guns in anger had you?
JM: Only once. That was once.
BW: Just the, when you saw that night fighter.
JM: Yeah. Whether we hit it or not I’ve no idea. But we got a DFM to the squadron afterwards. I don’t know who got it. They said we were going to draw lots to get it, never heard any more about it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Christian Mortensen
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMortensenJC180917, PMortensenJC1803
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:49:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Herefordshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
Description
An account of the resource
Born on 27 December 1924 in Aigburth Liverpool, James was 15 when war broke out in Europe. He intended to join as a pilot, navigator, bomber aimer in 1943 but due to shorter waiting list and training time he trained to become a wireless operator at RAF Madley. James mentions that he trained in older medium bomber such as Blenheims and Wellingtons, and mentions how he met his regular pilot, Sgt Aedy. He qualified for heavy bombers at RAF Bottesford, on Lancasters, before being assigned to 149 Squadron 'West Indies' at RAF Methwold.
James says that a separate briefing was held for wireless operators to inform them of callsigns and code words to be used before the main briefing. James was also the mid-under gun operator when the aircraft required one. James’ crew only flew four operations over Berlin being near the end of the war; he mentions a mis-identified target incident and an attack by a night fighter. James’ account also details being involved in the Operation Dodge and Operation Manna, as well as recalling a time that he was invited to fly in a Mosquito which he described as ‘a terrific aircraft’. James continue to serve until 1947 until he de-mobilised due to his ‘dislike of a lack of flying’. James retired from active service as a warrant officer. He would work as a delivery driver until retiring in 1997. James recalls that he kept in contact with three members of his crew until 2015.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alex Joy
Anne-Marie Watson
Steph Jackson
149 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Mosquito
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Bottesford
RAF Feltwell
RAF Madley
RAF Methwold
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wharmby, Tom
Tom Wharmby
T Wharmby
Description
An account of the resource
13 items including nine photographs, two letters and biographical entries for five 199 Squadron personnel. Photographs and biographies are of Sergeant Tom Wharmby, including his wedding, and four of his crew members; Sergeant Ronald Hughes, Sergeant Leonard Waldorf, Sergeant John Guyer Wilson and Flying Officer Ronald Herman Downes Cook. Letters sent from Air Ministry to Sergeant Tom Wharmby’s widow concern the location of his grave and those of his aircrew at Harderwijk, Holland, their aircraft having crashed on 12/13 May 1943. <br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Carol Wharmby-Gordon and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br />Additional information on Tom Wharmby is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/124941/">IBCC Losses Database</a>
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wharmby, T
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Ronald Herman Downes Cook
Flying Officer of 199 Sqd
Wireless Operator Air Gunner.
Ronald was born 2st September 1912 in Weybridge Surrey to John William and Eva Annie.
He attended the local Schools in Weybridge, and was an active member of 1st Weybridge Scouts, then becoming appointed Scout Master in 1931, he continued scouting until the war.
Ronald enlisted in the RAF in September 1940 as Volunteer Reserve. He immediately began training as a Wireless Operator/Air Gunner. His training continued and he gained a temporary commission in August 1942. He was then assigned to 199 Sqd in November 1942.
He married Grace on the 26th July 1941 at St James Church Weybridge. They had very little time together as a married couple and never built the home they were planning.
Ronald flew a total of 244.70 hours with 199 Sqd.
Inscription on Ronald's headstone is
TO LIVE IN THE HEARTS OF THOSE WE LOVE IS NOT TO DIE.
Sgt Ronald Hughes
Age 20 of 199 Sqd 1450608
Navigator
Ronald was born in the Moss village situated near the town of Wrexham North Wales in 1923. He was the only Son of Elizabeth and Stanley.
Ronald was educated at Grove Park Grammar School in Wrexham where he excelled in numeracy and the sciences.
He completed his education with distinction before becoming employed by the Courtaulds Company in Holywell as a trainee Chemist.
Ronald volunteered to join the RAF as he was obsessed with flying, and felt he had a duty to serve his country.
His early flying training was carried out in Canada, he quickly became adapted to service life.
When Ronald was reported missing, the entire Family were in mourning, and were inconsolable with grief.
Inscription on Ronalds headstone is
HIS DUTY NOBLE DONE, GOOD GRANT HIM ETERNAL REST.
Sgt Leonard Waldorf
Age 20 of 199 Sqd 1383863
Pilot.
Leonard was born in Stoke Newington London, a Jewish family.
He was a wonderful sportsman and whatever sport he took up he won numerous trophies for table tennis, Football, Cricket and Golf.
He joined Imperial Airways in 1939/40 and then volunteered, though under age, for the RAF in early 1941. He then trained at the Polaris Flying Academy in Lancaster California USA in 1942.
When Leonard was reported missing, his Parents were anxious that if he was captured he would be tortured as he was a Jew.
The raid on 12th/13th May 1943 on Duisburg Germany was supposed to be his last mission.
Inscription on Leonards head stone is.
DEEPLY MOURNED AND SO SADLY MISSED BY HIS PARENTS AND BROTHER CHARLES.
Sgt John Guyer Wilson
Of 199 Sqd 1386132
Air Bomber
John was married and lived in Dagenham London. They had one Son David, John was killed 7 days before his Sons 200 Birthday.
David does remember standing next to him in the kitchen, and looked down at his buckles on his boots.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Wharmby's crew biographies
Description
An account of the resource
Four biographies of 199 Squadron servicemen killed in action, with notes regarding the inscriptions on their headstones.
Flying Officer Ronald Herman Downes Cook, wireless operator/ air gunner;
Sergeant Ronald Hughes, navigator;
Sergeant John Guyer Wilson, bomb aimer;
Sergeant Leonard Waldorf, pilot. The latter was born to a Jewish family and was killed in action on 12/13 May 1943 on Duisburg.
Format
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Four typewritten sheets
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Identifier
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MWharmbyT1236751-171018-010001, MWharmbyT1236751-171018-010002,
MWharmbyT1236751-171018-010003,
MWharmbyT1236751-171018-010004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
United States
California
California--Lancaster
Germany
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-12
1943-05-13
199 Squadron
2 BFTS
aircrew
bomb aimer
British Flying Training School Program
faith
grief
killed in action
memorial
navigator
pilot
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wharmby, Tom
Tom Wharmby
T Wharmby
Description
An account of the resource
13 items including nine photographs, two letters and biographical entries for five 199 Squadron personnel. Photographs and biographies are of Sergeant Tom Wharmby, including his wedding, and four of his crew members; Sergeant Ronald Hughes, Sergeant Leonard Waldorf, Sergeant John Guyer Wilson and Flying Officer Ronald Herman Downes Cook. Letters sent from Air Ministry to Sergeant Tom Wharmby’s widow concern the location of his grave and those of his aircrew at Harderwijk, Holland, their aircraft having crashed on 12/13 May 1943. <br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Carol Wharmby-Gordon and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br />Additional information on Tom Wharmby is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/124941/">IBCC Losses Database</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wharmby, T
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ronald Herman Downes Cook
Description
An account of the resource
A head and shoulders portrait of Flying Officer Ronald Herman Downes Cook. On the reverse 'Ronald H.D. Cook. 199 Sqd. Flying Officer'.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Format
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One colourised photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PWharmbyT17010005, PWharmbyT17010006
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
199 Squadron
aircrew
wireless operator / air gunner