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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/370/6095/AGomersalO160530.1.mp3
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Title
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Gomersal, Oliver.
Description
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Ten items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Oliver Gomersal (b. 1921, 1433231, 139719 Royal Air Force), a memoir, accounts of operations, a list of postings, his logbook and two photographs. Oliver Gomersal was navigator with 621 Squadron stationed in East Africa and Aden. On 2 May 1944 his Wellington successfully attacked a German submarine, U852.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Oliver Gomersal and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Gomersal, O
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CB. Today is Monday 30th June 2016, my name is Chris Brockbank and we are meeting today Oliver Gomersal who was a, an Observer in Coastal Command during the war and has been a resident of Buxton all his life. Oliver how did you come to, what are the earliest recollections you have of life?
OG. Well I was born in Buxton in May 1921, I had me 95th Birthday Day [cough] just the week before I am speaking. Oh I have been very, very lucky for various reasons. I have had two life saving cancer operations by the Hospital at Stepping Hill, Stockport and I eh owe them my life twice otherwise I would have disappeared twenty years ago. What intrigues me is the trouble they got to with me even as an old man and that applies to other people as well. So nobody knocks National Health to me. But eh anyway I was brought up in Buxton, went to the infants school there as everybody else did and then went onto what was called an Elementary School [cough] you went to until you were fourteen and then left school and got a job but I was lucky and got a Scholarship to Buxton College which was the local Secondary or Grammar School and eh with em I didn’t leave until I was sixteen. I had my two particular friends were reasonable good Cricketers and in 1937 we all played in the College Cricket Team which that year never lost a match. Later on in my RAF Career I played cricket for the, for an RAF Cricket team in Aberystwyth, Odiham and Brighton, I have played on the County Ground at Brighton. After the war when I returned home I took up Tennis as me main sport. Anyway back to school days eh after I left Buxton College in 1937 I eh went to an Uncle at Teddington on Thames in Middlesex, he had a small printing works. The family idea was that I learn the printing trade and eventually take it over. Sadly the war started and eh you couldn’t get paper and the actual demand for diminished considerably because quite a lot of it is; “how shall I say.” Not luxury work, but it isn’t necessary.[cough] So I came back to Buxton and very fortunately got a job in the Borough Treasurers Office. The Borough Treasurers Son was a big pal of mine at Buxton College so I suspect there was a little bit of collusion like that but I was very lucky to get another job at that stage and I worked for a year and a half in the Treasurers before going into the Air Force but I eh in 1940 I joined the Home Guard and I had just over a year in the Home Guard which was very very useful pre military training indeed and eh [cough] I went to Cardington where the Airship Hangers were still evident there and was interviewed by a panel of three Officers for the eh Air Force and eh decided I could undertake training as an Observer eh which of course was both an Navigator and a Bomber Aimer in those days, combined job and eh when I, the tribunal told me they were quite happy to accept me for training. The Chairman of the panel said “Now Gomersal don’t forget, Observers are brains of the Air Force” So I had always got that up me sleeve of course. Anyway I was eh, four or five months before I was called up, went to Aircrew receiving centre which was Lords Cricket Ground in London where fellows were pouring in mostly for Navigator and Pilots training because the initial training was exactly the same and I was embodied in a group of chaps who were all going to be Observers and we were sent after a fortnight to Aberystwyth [cough] to do the preliminary course there where we started to learn about Air Force Administration and to march and do as you are told and clean the room and all these sort of things that they emphasise when you go in to let you know that you are there to do as you are told and sadly half way through the course I got what turned out to be a low grade Pneumonia and ended up in the RAF Hospital at Cosford eh for four or five weeks but eventually I was declared reasonably fit and after a Medical Board in Kingsway the Air Force sort of Medical Board I was passed to carry on with the Training which I did. And eh, I started from scratch again the ITW course with a whole group of Pilots but when we finished the course after two or three months then I was posted to eh the Elementary Navigation School at Eastbourne as it was called then and eh we had then oh I suppose three months there where we did quite a lot of the basic eh school work as it were of Navigation. Again we went through it in, in Flying School with eh flying of course applying the same things in practice, but really the guts of course was at Eastbourne. The trained a whole host of fellows there. While I was there it was bombed by a eh Fighter Bombers, German Aircraft from the other side of the Chanel. I remember one morning we were doing PT in the Park and eh at Eastbourne and a Corporal was in charge of us and we could hear an aircraft behind us and suddenly the Corporal shouts “Get down it’s a Gerry” and we had only got Gym kit on, we looked up and we could see this aircraft coming and I actually saw the bomb leave the aircraft but it was nearly over us we knew it was going to hit us. But I could tell you I have never felt so naked in me life. We literary virtually went and hid under the bushes, ones natural instincts. But anyway their information was very very good, the bomb hit one of the hotels at the front used by the RAF, but fortunately they had a very late lunchtime and so there were no aircraft, air cadets in there but sadly there were some WAAFs who were eh preparing the meal and so on and some of them were casualties. So the German information, intelligence was very good indeed.But em we finished there and I was eh sent to West Kirby where they got drafts ready for overseas and I joined one to go to South Africa where eh [cough] Pilots were trained up in Rhodesia and there were five Air Schools in the Cape training Bomb Aimers and Navigators and we went to Oaksthorne, it is now famous for where all the ostrich farms are and eh did the Navigation course there. Also the bombing course, the bombing course was about fifteen miles from Oaksthorne itself. And when we done the bombing the Pilots used to amuse themselves by flying low and making the ostriches run which I thought was rather a dirty trick, but there we are. Now of course it is quite famous for eh visitors and people going to South Africa for a trip round usually get to Oaksthorne one way or another if they are doing the Cape. We did an Air Gunnery course at the end of our training at a place called Port Alfred for three weeks. We returned by the most spectacular train journeys there are in South Africa to Cape Town where I happen to have an Uncle, an Aunt my, my Fathers youngest Sister and she said she had never had any of her family under her roof before. I just had two days there and I was last but two on a posting back to UK. And eh my main pal whose name alphabetically was further along the line from mine stayed there for a fortnight. My Aunt took him and another pal all round and gave him. But anyway I came back to England and we went to Harrogate which was a Personnel Training Course there eh and, and a Transit Camp and eh from there we were posted to Blackpool to train for Coastal Command following rather sad circumstances. The course was called GR General Reconnaissance and it was for co-operation with the Navy and it was extra eh Navigational Patrols and somewhat rather more complicated that you needed in Bomber Command. And eh we got there because twelve people from eh the GR School in Canada, eh were torpedoed coming back to England. So they picked twelve of us at random and said “Right you are going to have a rush course at Squires Gate and then you will fill in where these chaps were going to go.” So that happened and then eventually some of us were picked to go to a new Squadron that was being formed in East Africa. As the eh Mediterranean was being open for shipping it was decided it was safe to send convoys there and down the Suez Canal instead of all the way round the Cape to get to India and the eh East. So our Squadron was formed to patrol the Gulf of Aden and the North West areas of the Indian Ocean because of the expected increase in submarine both with the Germans and the Japanese. So after OTU where we all joined together as a Crew, got to know each other, eh where we did trips out into the North Atlantic we did a Ferry Training course at Torbay in South Wales here we did as part of the course, two Operational trips out in the Atlantic, one was out in the North part of the Bay of Biscay. We didn’t actually see anything but we started of in the night and came back in the day light. In the night session we passed a Hospital Ship, I can still remember it was lit by floodlights to show its sides and the big red cross, quite an interesting thing to see in the middle of the night. Six of us done a fan, a fan area flight so that we spread out and by the time we got back we were able to report what shipping we had seen and anything like that. I don’t think there was much about but at least the Headquarters of Coastal Command would know it was clear up to a certain point. We then went to a eh, fly out our own aircraft [cough] which the Pilot and the eh Wireless Operator had picked up fresh from the factory[cough]. After we had done various tests including an endurance, fuel consumption test and I remember this, I had to work this out and it done one and a half air miles per gallon which as a motorist later in life seemed to be rather in excess. But eh we then flew out to East Africa, we set off from Hearne at the back of Bournemouth, I think it is now Bournemouth Airport. And at the dead of night flew down the English Chanel dodging the French coast and then down across the Bay of Biscay. Eh when we passed the North Cape of eh of France I we, we put the Radar on, we had a primitive Radar it was called ASV or Air to Surface Vessels, it didn’t always work very well as I say and it was a somewhat primitive one but eh [cough] we were able to detect the cliffs at the top West, North West Corner of France and we were about forty miles away which was just right. If there was a rough sea it didn’t work very well and if there were no features on the shore line it didn’t show the difference between the sea and the shore. Cliffs were ok, fortunately we were just about where I hoped we would be. I must say on this trip out the Meteorological Forecast was absolutely bang on. We got I, I flew on the met wind and we were in the right place going, I think it was Cape Finistere, we were there ok and em, er we went still in darkness, down the Spanish coast and it came light when we were off Portugal. Portugal of course, when you look at the map there eh, shore line is rather bent from North to South. So as we got half way down Portugal, the, the coastline receded and it came back when we got to, I think it is Cape, either Cape St Vincent I think it is at the bottom. I took what is called a running fix of that, where you take two Astro, two compass bearings about eight or nine minutes apart. By transferring one position line you can get a fix within a mile which is very useful and then we flew from that onto North Africa and finished up at Rabat or Rabat, Sale as it is called in Morocco and airfield that had been taken over by the Americans. We were there about a week [cough] “pardon me” because the Atlas Mountains were covered in cloud and our aircraft well loaded with petrol would only get a thousand feet or so above there highest point. They didn’t want us the risk of running in to them, so we waited for a week and we were able to continue the journey and we flew from there to Castel Benito which is in Libya and eh we were warned that we must get an early start because we were flying against time. In other words because we were flying East we lost an hour of the daylight. We got there ok, the next morning we set of for Cairo, the same thing happened, the day seemed a bit shorter, we got to eh and airfield on the outskirts of Cairo, transit airfield and eh, not too far from the Pyramids. In fact when we got the Pyramids in view the Pilot said to me “we can see the Pyramids Oliver so come forward and have a look.” So I went and stood bye the two Pilots and I thought to myself “oh they are just like their photographs.” Well that was a silly thing to think ‘cause so they should be. To see them in real life having seen so many photographs of them it wasn’t quite the impact that I thought it might be. Anyway we stayed at this Transit Camp, Cairo West I think it was called and I had a tent in the sand, let into the sand. Amongst other things we had to have an engine seen there, I think we were ten days there which allowed me to get into the Pyramids. Now the people are queuing up to get, I understand. I went through on me own with a Dragger Man which was interesting and em went round Cairo and em then we set off from there for a flight down the Nile Valley to Khartoum. We followed the Nile for a certain distance and then it went to the left and we went straight on. We got there ok and of course it was sandy there, we had a night there and the next day we were routed to go to Nairobi and this was a very interesting flight. After leaving the sandy desert and the bare landscape around Khartoum as we got into East Africa and Kenya the vegetarian started and we left the sandy rough area behind us. We stopped for lunch at Juba and eh I remember while we were sitting at the bare wooden table where we got out lunch there were Chameleons flitting around up, onto the roof. I am sure they learned if they hung around the table there were crumbs to be picked up. Also the waiters were tall austere eh; Sudan, very impressive indeed. Then we set off again after lunch got to the edge of Lake Victoria and from there we turned left and went into Nairobi where of course we were back to civilisation again. After, oh we handed all our logs of the trip in then, we had to go to Air Headquarters there and hand them in and say if we had any problems on the way out or something like that. Then we after a week we flew down to Mombasa on the Coast which was a initially where our Squadron was formed. From there we flew up to Mogadishu which was where most of the aircraft were, Italian Somalia land eh. It was a beautiful town the Italians are very, very artistic. Good Engineers indeed and the towns they built in East Africa were, were worth seeing they really were, it is sad to see the state they have got into now. I always tell people when we were at some of the eh outstations there in the eh Horn of Africa, we lived rough, we shaved when we felt like it and eh we flew out Convoy Escorts and things from there. I have a photograph of all of us at one of the huts and we look a real gang of Pirates. I always say with that photograph “Those are the first Pirates in Somalia Land now.” But anyway sometimes after three months they moved our main Headquarters for Major Servicing from Nairobi to Aden and when we got back from the trip to Nairobi for engine change and things like that, when we got back to Mogadishu the Squadron had all left and gone to Aden. So we then had a very interesting trip over the edge of Abyssinia. I wish I could remember more about it but anyway we landed at Aden two days before Christmas and jollifications were held because drinks were cheap in that area, I am not saying they were very good, they were available. After that we carried on the normal life which we done from Mogadishu, Convoy Escorts and anti Submarine looking for submarines where the Naval Intelligence in the area were able to pick up the German Submarines broadcasting back to their Headquarters in Germany which they did every morning. And so they were able in due course, in May, next May to warn the aircraft that there was a submarine working its way up East Africa. We took of one morning about four o’clock in the morning, went down the shipping lane, these shipping lanes were where the Convoys went, of the Germans obviously knew all about them. About half past five in the morning just gone light we spotted a German U Boat happily making its way up the shipping lane. By the time it spotted us Eh, eh we were, lost height, gone down to about five hundred feet and the eh Pilot dropped the eh depth charges on where it had just eh, gone under the water. It was the result of an exercise we done at Silloth at OTU where we practiced dropping bombs on a boat that was towed or a target that was towed by motor boat. Then we did it for real he made a very good judgement of where the eh, eh submarine might be. Apparently got a depth charge each side of it and blew it to the surface. Now this is a very good indication of how ones mind can work in emergencies or slowly. The phrase time stood still was brought home to me, because I had been with another Crew, I never had anything wrong with me in that area a lot of the chaps had sub tropical diseases and so on. Eh I had to fly another aircraft where there Navigator got sick and I in fact got twenty more Operational trips in than the rest of my Crew. I had been flying with another Crew when they thought they saw a submarine conning tower but they were never quite sure. I thought, “Well I am not missing this.” So I got in the conning tower was able, in the eh astro dome and I was able to see the full attack more than anybody else. So I saw the approach while Stephenson the Front Gunner using his guns managing to hit the conning tower of the submarine just before it submerged. And then as the Pilot lined up for his attack [cough] as he pressed the button the depth charges went off, were released, I could feel the aircraft rise. Then I turned round and I could see them hanging in the air and I thought to myself “Get down, get down you blighters, get down.” Now according to the physics that I learned at school the force of gravity and the speed of things dropping they could only have been in the air, one and a half seconds and yet to me that was almost an eternity. I said “Get down, get down you blighters get down.” They did get down and the submarine disappeared. After about ten minutes flying round at about five hundred feet the nose of the submarine appeared and the Pilot shouted to the Second Pilot “Harvey get the camera out, they will never believe us.” And they got the camera out and took some photographs and then it disappeared again and then a minute or two later it eh resurfaced. We were looking at it with interest. I remember I was getting some messages ready to send off and I heard the Second Pilot who was a Canadian say “Gee they are shooting at us.” And eh [cough] we cleared of as quick as we could doing a Cork Screw and the Rear Gunner managed to keep the German Gunners heads down and I realise, although he never got any mention afterwards we probably owe our lives to him. Anyway we cleared off and eventually when we thought we were out of range of their guns, they got an anti aircraft gun which kept us three miles away. If we got any nearer they started shooting again at us, but our job was in that situation to shadow the submarine because in the aircraft there was some little wireless signal apparatus you could turn on and it made a little beacon and the other aircraft could tune in and home on you. So we did that and our job was to keep in reasonable sight to the submarine which turned round two or three ways and eventually set of on a zig zag course roughly South which I reported back over the radio. Many years later I got to know a man who had been in the Air Force who was seconded to eh British Airways, Overseas Airways and he became part of a Flying Boat eh service from Durban, up to, it was known as the Horseshoe run. They came up to the Middle East, turned right and went down to Calcutta, went to Karachi, loaded up went across India to Calcutta. At the end of my Air Force Career was fortunate to have a trip across India from Karachi to Calcutta in one of these em, they were a variant of the Short Sunderland Flying Boat civilian version [cough] and it was a very interesting trip indeed.One of the highlights of me life, because they say if you had a trip in one of those flying boats. I have forgotten the name of the service but you never forget it and that’s quite true. But anyway “Where have I got to?” We were with the submarine for three or four hours and then our petrol was getting short another aircraft turned up when we were there it had homed on our beacon and went into attack. We started to attack but the other one was three or four miles ahead of us so we couldn’t make a diversionary attack because his attack was over. Eventually four more aircraft came Wellingtons and dropped depth charges on it but the Commander of the submarine was so efficient that he had the air, submarine taking evasive action and it was such a big one that it was blown up but landed back in the water and it was still able to proceed at about twelve knots. One or two of the other aircraft photographed it in motion as it were but eventually [cough] it was beached on the East African coast and I have a photograph in the book since of it still there. I don’t know any scrap iron merchants in East Africa but there is a jolly good haul there where the hull could cope with it. Then we continued normal anti eh submarine trips and eh Convoy Escorts at the rest of our time until we finished our year, which was the length of our tour in East Africa. Then we went from there to eh, the Middle East er I was commissioned at the end of my time with the Squadron. It caused rather a bit of amusement ‘cause I apparently [cough] when we finished the Navigation course at Oaksthorne I done rather well in the examinations and been commissioned and nobody told me and certainly nothing in writing and I, I continued to be a Sergeant and later a Flight Sergeant [cough] “pardon me” on the Squadron eh and just as we had been cleared the Station for, for eh posting to the Middle East and dispersal, the Adjutant sent for me one day and said “Have you been applying for a commission?” I said “Well not really but I understood I had been granted one at Flying School but I never heard any more.” He said “Well I have had a signal from the Air Ministry stating you have got to be commissioned immediately with seniority back to March 1943.” So there we were. I had been cleared on the Station so I was in no mans land sort of thing. Anyway to deal with it administratively I had to go round the important parts of the Aden set up with an arrival chit in one hand and a clearance chit in the other. Now all forces will understand completely what that meant because to gazette me as an Officer through the Aden Headquarters I had to be officially one of their Stations. So I went round the Aden, saw about ten different Officers of various sorts and eh they booked me in with the clearance chit eh, eh the arrival chit and then they cleared me with the clearance chit all within three minutes and nobody but nobody turned a hair so I can only assume that that was an operation that happened from time to time. I has always tickled me very much but eh from then on I was an Officer, I was a Pilot Officer for three months and then I was told that I could become a Flying Officer and I had that for three or four months and then eh I, I funnily enough I had friends in Bristol, Family friends and I went to see them and eh from the Station where I was in Odiham in Hampshire [cough] and I went in the main library in Bristol and found there the copies of the London Gazette where all Officers promotions, registrations promulgated and I found the eh actual number where I was eh promoted to a Flight Lieutenant. So I went back to my Station at Odiham and said to the chap in charge of the Section I was in “By the way I found me Flight Lieutenant.” So he said “You had better put it up.” I went to the Camp tailors and they did the necessary so there I was a Flight Lieutenant. But eh I thought well after I finish with the Squadron I shall do much flying, have a rather interesting time perhaps, but by jove I couldn’t have been more wrong. [cough] We went to eh, after returning to England we went to eh a place in North Yorkshire eh which was acting as a transit camp for eh retraining Aircrew and eh we had em tests of various sorts, intelligence tests and so on and we were given the option of several things. Now they were looking for people to train as Officers to deal with the expanding Transport Command. We did a course to deal with working out the centre of gravity of a loaded aircraft and things like that. Dealing with passengers and freight and we ended the course at em; name escapes me at the moment, in Wiltshire and em when we passed out there we went to em another RAF Station at the end of the trunk road, trunk route out for India. And it was very exciting to go into a big hanger to see the floor split up into portions. Say Malta, Cairo, Karachi and they put the freight for the aircraft into those sections and so on. Anyway eh after that course I was posted to Odiham in Hampshire where I stayed for, we were loading aircraft the last two months of the war and all sorts of interesting things put on. We were loading Dakotas and by George they were workhorses, they were marvellous. Then the war finished and eh we were loading petrol for Fighters at one time and then we were sending out more normal things, passengers. Then eh I was asked if I would go to Tarrant Rushton in; oh, haven’t got my maps of the County and supervise a job transferring what is called a complete Federacy Issue, that is all the cash, hard cash in the Country. The Czech Government in exile had had a complete set of currency printed by Waterman’s[?] the famous printers and it was kept in a cave underground near Colerne, near Bath. My particular pal had been an Armourer and had been at Colerne so when they asked for a volunteer I said “Yes I’ll go.” I thought it would be interesting to see Colerne. By then there were only about four aircraft a day leaving or arriving at em Odiham where I was and so I was in charge of the eh boxed up cash, mostly notes. The idea was that a Squadron; of Lancs, not Lancasters “What is the other big four engined aircraft?”
CB. Halifax.
OG. Halifax’s based there and we loaded them up, the cash was brought in big heavy boxes and were loaded into the Bomb Bay. I had to work out the centre of gravity of the loaded aircraft ‘cause we had to weigh all these and eh work out where the centre of gravity would be and eh all the weight of the aircraft and so on. Anyway there were about ten flights per day to eh; the capital of Czechoslovakia.
CB. Prague.
OG. Prague and eh we did this for a number of days, by the time they were all shifted. Oh by the way there were some officials from the Czech National Bank sent over to assist. There were three Czech Soldiers back with every load to be repatriated and if they were forced to land on any land in Europe they got and armed guard because of all the Cash they had. I did a summary and analysis of all the Flights there were I think a hundred and thirteen flights all together and we carried three hundred and thirteen Soldiers to be repatriated. And the RAF measures it’s Freight in pounds so the summary I did at the end of all these was over five hundred thousand pounds of freight. I after we finished of I went back to Odiham and then reported to Transport Command Headquarters[cough] for Europe in North London near Harrow and when I got there I gave them the paperwork. I done all the clerical work which documented the full load and they were rather pleased with it and there was a vacancy at Copenhagen Airport for one of the RAF Traffic Staff. They offered me that which naturally I took. Well when I went to Copenhagen, I was there for the three months it was like going to a land of milk and honey after England and I had a very interesting time there. I, I got to know a gentleman, one of the eh; Army Officers on the Movements side there was a man with the unusual name of Captain Duck, D,U,C,K. [spelt out] never met the name since. Anyway he palled me up, or palled up with me and said “Oh I go and see a Czech Civilian once a week and he has told me to bring a pal if I want to, do you want to come?” and we went and after two weeks Captain Duck was posted so this Norwegian Gentleman, Czech, sorry this Danish Gentleman who spoke very, very good English said eh “Well don’t you stop coming Oliver, you come and see me once a week.” He had an Office in eh Pra, eh.
CB. Copenhagen.
OG. Now where did I just say? Copenhagen, he had an Office in Copenhagen. He was an Importer of textiles for making suits and so on. I knew he had been to England anyway after I had known him six or seven weeks the subject had never come up before. He said “Where do you live in England Oliver?” I said “A place called Buxton, south of Manchester.” I always aligned it to Manchester because most people knew where that was. “Oh but Oliver this is marvellous I have been there.” It turned out on one of his trips to England to buy cloth, he had been to eh eh eh place at Leake where they made cloth or mostly what they do was silk. The people in charge there called Stanard in that time said to him “Where have you booked?” and he had booked in a public house in the area [cough] they said “Oh you mustn’t stay there our Mother has a nice house and flat near the Pavilion Gardens in Buxton, you must go and stay with her.” Which he did, and I said to him “Well that is about as the crow flies, three hundred yards from where I live.” Wasn’t it strange that he should know Buxton as near as that. Anyway I was posted from there to Prague as relief Commanding Officer which someone wanted to thank me for the job I had done there. I was there for two or three weeks. Incidentally when I was there the river Vitava froze up, froze over and we were issued with Arctic Kit, so I could quite shoot a line that I had Tropical Kit issued when I was in Africa and later on Arctic Kit although I never had occasion to wear it. One of my line shoots. From there I was as I say sent back to Prague for a week or two, I think it was three weeks as relief Commanding Officer. And then just when I was thinking about when I would get my demob I was posted to Singapore on the Traffic Management there and I spent probably five months there and then I was posted home by sea. So I was very lucky I had the most interesting time in Transport Command, I met a lot of interesting people as well. Part of me life I look back on with great interest. Well I returned back to Buxton and returned to the Surveying, the Borough Department in Buxton.
CB. We are going to have a break there.
CB. What we just want to do now, please Oliver is just go back on one or two points, so when you were at OTU, so where was the OTU?
OG. Siloth in Cumberland.
CB. Right and it’s right on the coast.
OG. Yeah, we used to fly down the South of Ireland into the Atlantic or up North over the Hebrides.
CB. So before you did that, then you all arrived as individuals at Silloth ready to join the OTU. So when you arrived how did you come to Crew up what was the process.
OG. A very tricky problem but in ours it was laughable.
CB. And where was it?
OG. At Silloth.
CB. Yeah but where, in a hanger or in a big room or?
OG. Oh it was in a room somewhere, only we got the message, “Oh they are crewing up in room so and so there, hurry up.” And when we got there there were six Crews, five had crewed up and there was one Pilot left and just my Crew and so we had to take him you see. It turned out he was a duff chap, I didn’t care for him eh, he is the sort of bloke who I think could have had a drink problem eventually. But eh the few trips we did with eh screened Pilots acting as checkers of his ability they never let him fly on his own. I went one trip eh in the area, local flying I think it is called but fortunately after three trips it was decided he wasn’t fit to let loose with a Crew in a Wellington and he was off the course. Whatever happened to him I don’t know and I don’t care [cough]. So we got a new Pilot from Flying School a chap called Roy Mitchell and he was just as good as the other chap was bad, so we were very lucky. Another bee in my bonnet nobody has ever mentioned eh, he didn’t survive the war like the rest of us. He was killed, he was an Instructor somewhere and in December 1945 he was killed in a crash and the shock killed his Mother. We arranged he went up to the Middle East as an Instructor, I came back to England newly commissioned but I said to him “I have friends in London I shall certainly be seeing, Tedington way.” I had lived [unclear] lodge we had their little girl as an evacuee and the next doors little girl in Buxton during the war. Her daughter, the landladies daughter who was six when I first new her is now in a home and she is eighty; four now.[cough]. And another little girl the next door neighbour, I am in touch with both of them I have kept in touch all our lives. Eh, I have three friends who were Pilots, they lost their lives and in each case a parent died soon afterward, I am sure the shock killed them. One woman Roy Mitchells Mother and two of their Fathers lost their lives in a very short time of loosing their own lives. And I am sure if you equate that through all the British and Commonwealth Forces. I suppose French Forces, American Forces, Russian Forces, German Forces a lot of people died because of shock like that. I am sure eh, eh my experience of it is common and it is a side issue that nobody ever talks about or thinks about now but it has struck me, quite close to me. Eh anyway [cough] I will take another swig and I will talk about crewing up.
CB. Right ok, hang on.
OG. I get husky ‘cause my throat is a little from time to time you know this cough and cold that was going around, I had it for five and a half weeks, some people have it for a day or two.
CB. Right, crewing up is slightly different here because it was a smaller number of people. So you just said there were enough people for five, six crews. Five of them had already crewed up by the time you had walked in the room. How many of the rest, how many people there did you know before you moved into the room?
OG. None of them and as I say the first Pilot we got, because he was the only one left. He was rather a poor type and very fortunately the Instructors, the Flying Instructors soon rumbled him and he was taken off the course. I don’t honestly think we would even lived to get on Operations if we continued with him, but anyway we eventually got a chap who was just as good as he was bad. And with our little affair with the German Submarine and dust up with that he got the DFC quite rightly, our friend Stevie got the DFM the Front Gunner.
CB. What about the other members of the Crew, who were they.
OG. We were told you want to go to so and so room they are crewing up. Time we got there why we weren’t told earlier I don’t know. But eh, the Pilot were all strangers to each other ‘cause up until then we had done our own little thing and the three Wireless Operator, Air Gunners we had had all been friends at the Wireless School, so they were three friends so they would stick together and I was the Navigator. We had a Canadian Second Pilot who [cough] while eh we had to wait when our First Pilot was taken of the course. We had a weeks leave while they sorted some new chap out for us and I brought this Canadian back to my home town, Buxton. We had a very pleasant week together and eh when we went back we got a new Pilot and he was a jolly good chap and eh Roy Mitchell. Sadly not to survive the war, but eh that was how we crewed up, it was a rather hit and miss affair altogether. So how I would have decided I have not the faintest idea. There were three Canadian Pilots as Captains and eh there we are. I had no choice in the matter, none of us did. Eh, we kept two of the Wireless Operator, Air Gunners but one of them disappeared after some months when we got to Africa. He had what is politely called a social disease. I won’t say any more about him but he was replaced by odd bods from then on till we got a Warrant Officer Wireless Operator on his second tour and we kept him for the last half year we were eh Operating. But no this is, we just met as strangers and that was it. You got to know each other except this chap we lost, he was a Glaswegian, I couldn’t understand half he said, then I am sure he couldn’t understand me, so we never had much to do with each other. That’s how we were crewed up, it was a very hit and miss affair altogether. But I am quite sure you can’t decide who you like and who you don’t like and who you favour eh when you are just jumbled together for the first time. But that was it, it worked out ok for the rest of us.
CB. So here you are, you have all, you all joined as the last Crew of six, did you all go away to eat after that or what happened. How did you, how did you gel together?
OG. Well we did standard exercises to teach us A. How to fly a Wellington as a Crew, the Pilots to pilot it, me to Navigate it. The Wireless Operators to work with the tackle there and the primitive eh Radar ASV, Air to Surface Vessels [cough]. We had graded exercises where we flew three hours, four hours up to I suppose seven or eight hours. Eh further afield all the time and eh got used to flying over the sea. There were no towns to recognise, geographical features over the sea. So instead of two hour flights in eh the training aircraft eh Oxfords and the other one, I have just forgotten the name.
CB. Ansons.
OG. Ansons thats it, Ansons yes, so of course we had to get used to flying for quite a number of hours. The longest trip we did actually, or I did was with another Crew not me own, when we found some survivors from a torpedoed ship and got them picked up by the Navy. We were airbourne for just under ten hours of that one.Stayed with them after we found them as long as we could. Eh but eh, eventually the, the trips got longer and at the far end of the course we did most of the night flying as well. So there we are, so by the time we had finished we were then a Crew able to be posted to a Squadron we went down to Torbay[?] in South Wales for a fortnight picked up a brand new Wellington. Got used to that and did what in the Navy called running in trials and flew out to East Africa all the way across North Africa a most interesting flight indeed and a very good end to our Apprenticeship.
CB. Now at OTU, you are at OTU you are learning how to search for ships as well as escort them. So the fan system could you just describe how the fan system worked.
OG. Some of the exercises were for the Pilot, some were for the Air Gunners and eh indeed the one for the Pilot, I repeat, depth charges were released by the Pilot pressing the button but you had to drop them from fifty or sixty feet over the sea, no higher than that and of course you had got to judge your height pretty carefully. So he had two or three exercises where he had to do low level bombing over something target towing by a Motor Boat. As I said in something I wrote about it a very useful exercise for the Pilot for when we had to do it for real, nine months later on. But em I of course had the increasing length of navigation trips eh and em we didn’t really have much wireless help because, because of the Germans flying in the area as well. They didn’t want our beacons that they could use as well as us. So the, the radio contact was only the walkie talkie within five or ten miles of the Airfield itself. That’s how we crewed up and we took it for granted that one of the other Crews, the six that were crewed up that day actually landed in the Solway Firth. They had something wrong with an engine and they went there. They all got out ok but one of them the Navigator couldn’t swim and one of the Wireless Operators, a South African who was a very good swimmer, so he saved his life. I think he got a British Empire Medal for that but otherwise we all went our different ways. But eh two or three of the aircraft that were there when I was ended up on the same Squadron as I was. We flew out over oh eight week, six, seven or eight weeks to form the Squadron. We got there about three quarters of the way through.
CB. So your Squadron was Six Twenty One.
OG. 621 yeah.
CB. And what would be a standard days activity, what would you be doing?
OG. Well we had lectures of various sorts [cough] of course when we got to Aden it was rather warm there and I was fortunate I could stand hot weather. The wife used to say I was twice as lively in hot weather. I never had a thing wrong with me in the year I was there in the year and a quarter and some of my friends had minor tropical diseases and things that I mentioned before. Fly when Navigators were sick I never had a thing wrong I was very fortunate. But em the rest of my Crew were sent on a course up to Middle East on one occasion when I was flying with somebody else and eh thing like that. Actually the programme there was you only worked or attended the Crew Room in the mornings and then the afternoons you started early of course. Then the afternoon was your own, we went to bed or something brilliant like that. There was an active football completion in our Liaison Forces, you see there were quite a lot of Army people there. Up to the end of the First War Aden was a Navy Protectorate, was administered by the Army from India, it came under the Indian Army. My old, when I was in the Printer Works the foreman of the composing room eh had been in the Indian Army and he used to say “Gusog, no more beer in Aden” in his Cockney voice. I, I never was able to get in touch with him to tell him I spent a year in Aden and its environs, but there we are so that was it. But it, after the first war the Government tried the experiment of making the Royal Air Force the paramount Military Force their and so the AOC was the Senior Military Figure and it was administered from Aden up to the second war. Of course when the Italian war started all the Italian Colonies in East Africa they were doing Operation Flights from Aden. These Airfields where they could get at them and bombing them, this went on, well the Italian war was on. You know it is never mentioned now the East African Campaign. It was the most successful Campaign of the whole war. And eh when he started, Mussolini of course thought he could get in on the act and be part of the winning side without much trouble. The Italian Forces and eh Native Troops in East Africa outnumbered the British Forces and Native Troops by nine to one, I will repeat that nine to one. But when the South Africans came up from eh Cape Town area, East Africans they advanced from the South and they mopped the Italians up and the British Forces from Khartoum advanced to the other side of Eritrea which the Italians had taken over and after a year and a half they had really pushed all the Italians out and we took over. British Forces took over the Administration of what had been Italian East Africa. And but it is completely forgotten now it was an absolutely successful war. Just as a by line in 1941 Easter I remember being at home while I was waiting to be embodied in the Air Force Eh we had what became one of the original outside broadcasts was our eh eh Commentator from the BBC in Perham the North part where they were about to do the last attempt to push the Italians out who were in a top of a Mountain. These British forces had to fight their way up the mountain and we listened to the broadcast of this in Buxton. Little did I know that in three years later in 1944 I would be on leave in Assmore in Eritrea and be able to go to Kirin. There was a bus run to Kirin and just beyond it and I went one day to see Kirin. When I got to Kirin and got off the bus there was the eh cemetery with all these poor chaps who had fought their way up to the top of the mountain or did their best to, which they did successfully, but lost their lives in the eh,activity. Em there was a, all the graves are there and the chap in charge of them was a middle aged South African Officer so when he found out that I did my training in South Africa, oh stop and have a cup of tea and so on. I stayed with him till about an hour later catching the bus to return to Asmara. It was horrible to me to think I had heard it A.over the radio and to be on the spot where all these poor chaps had died. It is a forgotten war now but it was the most successful I would say of any of the Operations undertaken.
CB. Very interesting.
OG. Only as a spectator.
CB. So now going if we may to talk about the attack on the Submarine again.So Oliver just what I would want to now cover please is.
OG.Is the submarine.
CB. Ok when you became, how did you become aware of the attack, can you just talk us through can you, how did you get to know about it?
OG. Well we were going that way it was coming up this way.
CB. I know but how did you get to know about it in the aircraft, somebody shouted?
OG. Oh, the Navy had very good intelligence in East Africa and when the submarine must have radioed back to Germany periodically and they caught that and they knew it was coming up the coast. It had gone round the Cape and torpedoed a couple of ships on the way round. And because eh, they thought they had killed everybody on rafts and that sort of thing but three of them survived and lived long enough to give evidence against them. That’s why the Captain, Commander Eck and two other Officers were executed at the end of the war. It was a, I have got a book about the trial because it was a classic trial at Nuremburg. Nothing to do with the submarine and Eck but because it was a classic trial. I have got back up there somewhere.
CB. That is an important point that came out of it. Here we are, your Squadron had been notified about the presence of a submarine, you were flying along as a Crew, so what was the process.
OG. It was a standard anti submarine patrol because they didn’t let anybody who was liable to be caught by the Germans that they could hear this, even I am told even the Captains of the like Frigates and Destroyers that were searching. They told them where to search but they did not give them the information that so for the Captain they couldn’t divulge it you see. So we set off as I say at four o’clock in the morning, edge of the Horn of Africa and the to go down the shipping lane. By jove we were,I tell you something, five thousand feet. There were some clouds and the Pilot said to the Second Pilot who was flying “You had better come down a bit, little lower Harvey.” I always had a joke that eh if we ever got in that situation the eh, eh Pilot who would be having a pee at the back or something and that is how it had worked out. He had gone down there and eh he,he got in the astrodome and had a look and this in the distance and eh came up to the front and told the Second Pilot who was flying, get out quick and I will get in. That was it, Stevie was rushed into the Front Turret, Front Gun Turret so there you are.
CB. So how many miles are you from the submarine when it was sighted.
OG. [Slight pause] I should think about eight miles something like that.
CB. And what sort of speed would you have been flying?
OG. Oh we flew at 135 knots true air speed [Hello dog] which was em 150 miles an hour that was our standard cruising speed.
CB. Right ok, then at, at that speed you are closing the seven or eight miles and descending all the way?
OG. Well actually the submarine was coming up there, we were here. So the Pilot flew like that so that he got a head on run. Time to get in position, I can only assume the didn’t spot us until it was a bit too late for them. I found out since that this submarine was a type that [cough] took rather a long time to submerge and that was it’s undoing. But he, he, he it was all up when he pressed the button, by jove he was spot on.
CB. And you, you were the Navigator em in the plane, once you knew this was happening what did you do?
OG. Well I, first of all I have to send an alarm signal. The RAF code for I have observed a submarine or spotted one was 465. The Merchant Navy similar signal was SS,SS so we sent 465 SS, SS, 465 so both the Merchant Navy in the area and the RAF anybody listening in. The Wireless Operator at the time was a, was the Australian Ted Turner and Ted told me he had received all these messages going along and the different tones. So the Wireless Operator is toned up, picking their own tone what they are listening to. But he said “When you send SOS everybody else hears it and the clear of the air leave it open to the SOS.” He said it was marvellous to be clear of all the signals and that sort of stuff. But that’s what I did, gave the Wireless Operator this alarm signal to send out and time and so on. And then I have to send out what is called a First Sighting Report and then with rough details. Roughly where it is and so on and then after ten minutes when I have had chance to pin point on the chart exactly where we were er as far as I knew and the information about the submarine eh that it had submerged that was about eight or nine minutes later. Then it came up, so I sent another one to say it was zig zagging, it. What Roy Mitchell tried to do was drive it to the East African coast. But it did sort of circles and then zig zagged southwards. I put that in the message that it was zig zagging southwards, then after that it was firing at us with a big gun. We, we got three miles from it until it stopped firing, if we got any nearer that it started using the big gun again. And eh our job was to say shadow it so we could home other aircraft onto it which is what we did. They turned up after about an hour.
CB. And what sort of attack did they make. Same sort of thing, you have got to drop depth charges as I say between fifty and sixty feet so you have to get right down. So our Front Gunners were shooting at the Germans and they were shooting back. Six or seven of the Germans were killed sadly but that was that. But they would have, they were specifically ordered to patrol that area to torpedo troop carrying ships of course you see they were reinforcing the Burmese war in India and there were quite a lot of Troop Carrying Ships. In fact I went on a WEA Course about about Gardens[?] many years after the war and the chap giving the talks had actually been out to eh Burma as a Soldier on one of these ships. We may well have done a Convoy Escort round the ship. We, we used to patrol round it, or convoys something like that ahead ‘cause the submarines used to lie in wait.
CB. How many, how many ships might there be in a convoy?
OG. It varied, I think probably I have seen eh. They weren’t as big as the Atlantic Convoys but I have seen ten or fifteen up the Persian Gulf.
CB. Just going back to the attack, you hear on the intercom whats going on, what did you after you.
OG. What happened, was Stevie was, what you do.
CB.Stevie being the Gunner at the front?
OG. Wall Stevenson the bloke you met. The Pilot there he is looking from straight ahead down to left, Steve who is in the Second Pilots seat he is looking straight ahead down to the right and Stevie spotted it because it was sort of over there you see. Stevie said “What the so and so is that?” I heard him on the intercom you see so I suppose I probably went and had a look myself and I could probably see it was probably eight or ten miles away. You could see the wake very clearly in that case. So then the Pilot comes and gets over the main spar and into the Pilots seat and takes over and looses height, it was just eh he had just ordered Harvey to come down three or four thousand feet cause we were going through some clouds and they would be in the way. So he would say come down to two thousand feet so that’s where we were. We would be going about five minutes when Stevie spots this. So I went to have a look and I could see it in the distance. See the wake and he got lower and lower and lower, they must have been quite late spotting us fortunately because we got quite near to it comparatively speaking before it started to go down. And as I said it was one that went down rather slowly and eh then we went over it eh Roy Mitchell the Pilot said “Have they dropped, have they gone off.” I said “yes they’ve gone off a treat.” But that is after watching them hang and they were there and eh.
CB. So you are watching them where?
OG. The Astrodome that was the bubble the Perspex for taking Astroshots a very good place for having to look at things. And eh, so then I came back and eh gave the alarm signals. I may have told you on the run in ‘cause it was a submarine and that was it. If there were any English submarines in the vicinity we were eh told, roughly where they were, but anyway that was that [cough] I will wet me whistle again.
CB. That is it, we will stop there for a minute.
OG. One of the topics Oliver that comes up with Bomber Command is the question of LMF and in your circumstance there was completely different activity but what was the main concern there and did you ever hear about or experience the situation of LMF?
OG. No I can’t remember anything like that eh I remember one of our Instructors who had been in Coastal Command in Northern Ireland he said by the end the, the tour by the way for Coastal Command was twelve months. He said there were chaps there who had been flying for twelve months over the Atlantic and he said they got quite “Bomb Happy” isn’t the word but they had had enough sort of thing but it was a mental, not the same quite thing exactly, they were just browned off didn’t care whither they lived or died from that point of view there. But we, I was lucky I never felt anything like that my main worry was once with the later Air Marshall [cough] one of the engines stopped when we were about a hundred miles off the eh Horn of Africa. Anyway very fortunately it picked up again, he turned for home and he got there ok. And there was a little emergency airfield right on the Horn of Africa a place called Alular. There was actually a lighthouse there which they kept on during the war. I sent a signal to say we were heading for Alular and by the time we got there the engine was still going along. So we decided we go the other hundred miles to the little airfield at Mendicasin[?] now it is on the laps of Buckaso [unclear] on the borders of Italian and British Somaliland.But eh I can’t remember any other fellows got tired particulary but then again we didn’t see much of other Crews. There were three or four detachments at Mendicasin a place called Shushibab [?] also in the middle of the Horn of Africa and Socotra in Aden itself.So we were all split up, two or three aircraft at each back to Aden for then servicing. So eh but there were chaps on the Squadron after we started getting reserves eh that eh I didn’t know. I met one of them after the war by accident being the Second Pilot of a plane. We lost eh in the year I was there four aircraft. Two crashed and were burned up, sadly they was with them and eh one it was a flight [cough] as the one I done to Nairobi with the Pilot, Navigator and Wireless Operator. They set off to go to Khartoum and they were never heard of again. No hide nor hair, no wireless message of any sort, no emergency. They were never heard of or seen again sad. And one, one ditch in the Gulf of Aden eh the Pilot didn’t survive but eh two, two of the Crew were picked up,they were still alive when they got to them. But of course they finished Operations privations and problems they had was life threatening to them under those circumstances they wouldn’t go back on flying probably, but there we are.
CB. What was the major concern about flying over the sea?
OG. Well we just took, took it as a matter of course. Eh we agreed if we had to land we would all stick with the aircraft and the dingy. That reminds me of something you mentioned earlier about eh, eh a chap who, that was what you call sabotage. [cough] One of the chaps who was on our Squadron 621 has got something on the internet which I have got a copy of. And eh they were the first aircraft on our Squadron to get out and land in East Africa. And when they did the first Major Service they found that eh if you go in the, drop in the water there is an explosive that goes of which inflates, causes the dingy to be inflated. Well after they got to East Africa and had the first Major Service, this eh bomb, I will call it the explosive thing it wasn’t there [cough] and something else was broken. They found out that the tall bedding[?] where we all got ready for the big trip out to prime[?] the aircraft there had been a saboteur and he had taken this bomb inflator out, it wouldn’t inflate, and he had broken something else, battered it with a hammer. The signs were quite apparent and apparently when they reported this back, this chap was found and eh executed as a saboteur. But the CO told them, he said “You are jolly lucky to have got here.” But anyway that was it. So you couldn’t tell but eh it didn’t bother me, things kept going over the sea. I got so I could tell the wind speed and direction from the white caps and things like that, little side issues that come with experience.
CB.So that is an important part about navigation isn’t it, how do you navigate over the sea?
OG. Dead reckoning and there were no radio beacons. There are small ones within twenty miles of the little airstrips, something like that but that is no good if you are three or four hundred miles away. And em very fortunately the period in between the monsoons was relatively calm and the wind was pretty steady so it was a big help that was. In the Monsoons we didn’t fly unless we had to eh it was eh, it was during the monsoon that we flew out to Socotra and landed and for the first time I was very nearly air sick. ‘Cause the winds changed round and it comes from the South West back towards India and it hits Socotra where there was the mountains and it goes up and down them and forms eddies. And eh the late Air Marshall had our aircraft there and he hit a monster air pocket coming in because of this turbulence and crashed the aircraft. One of the Ground Crew who had seen it said they had dropped from about fifty feet straight onto the ground and set it on fire. Fortunately, they all got out of the different escape hatches and the Pilot told them to clear of quick because the depth charges blew up in about thirty seconds. There was a bit of a [pause] fire engine at Socotra, it came down and the Pilot told them to clear of quickly in case these blew up, which they did. I lost my parachute, they had taken our aircraft because there’s wouldn’t start. [cough] I left my parachute in, fortunately I got me Navigation kit and bag out. But Sandy Phillip, one of our Crew, Wireless Operator he left some personal things in, photographs of his wife, they all went to blazes so there we are.
CB. Good thank you we are just going to pause there, just finally where were you demobbed and when?
OG. Hednesford
CB. Where was that?
OG. [pause] I am getting now I can’t remember place names, I can point to them on the map, Hednesford is in Staffordshire. It was eh eh a regular station but they used it as a demob centre. And eh when I appeared there for my demob there was a chap there that had been in the very first mob I was in at Aberystwyth five years before. He was a Flight Lieutenant as well we recognised each other, so that was rather interesting to me. I, but you see some of those early group photos of ITW and OTU be interesting to know how many of those chaps survived ‘cause most of them would go into Bomber Command Aye.
CB. Right thank you.
CB. Right so now Oliver we have covered a lot of things in you Air Force side. Just give us a snippet of what you done in Civilian life afterwards. Before the war you had been with the Council.
OG. I will read this out.
CB. No just give us the main points.
OG. Exactly what you want yeah.
CB. Just the main points, we are on yes.
OG. Right, In autumn 1946 I resumed my job in the Treasures Department in the Costing Office. Furnishing costs on the various jobs undertaken by the road maintenance teams. All the work on maintenance, of all various buildings owned by the Council, the Town Hall the Pavilion Gardens, the Baths, Sewage Works, Water Works and all the Council Houses. The Gas Works and Electricity undertaking which we also owned were nationalised next year and all that work was carried out by the Surveyors Department. In 1963 [cough] I moved to the Highways Department on Market Street and put in charge of the Office and Highways stores for eight years. A very interesting part of the job because this is where eventually it was all happening. Then in 1971 I returned to the Surveyors department as Chief Clerk until local Government reorganisation in 1974 when I became a Senior Administrator in the Technical Services Department, which dealt with similar work over the now grouped North Derbyshire towns of Borough of High Peak. Taking retirement in 1979 I also served on a council committee of admin officers in like departments. I always considered myself very lucky to have married my wife Marjorie who known and loved by such a wide circle of people until here death in 2008. We enjoyed interesting holidays over England, Scotland and Wales being members of both the National Trust and English Heritage. A recent check reveals that we had visited over 120 of the National Trust venues many of them several times. [cough] In 1951 jointly with my Sister Margaret we bought the first Vespa Scooter to be sold in Buxton which allowed me to expend my, expand my horizons over surrounding counties. In fact I went to the last weekend of the Festival of Britain in 1951 and stayed with friends in Teddington. I bought my first car in 1965 a lovely little Wolsey Hornet which went out of production three years later. I had a car up to 2008 but failing eyesight caused me to give up. My training as a Navigator gave me a particular interest in travelling round our country and I was able to do much of it on B roads which was still quiet. For sporting activities I played in Buxton College first eleven cricket team with [cough] my lifelong friends of Harold [cough] Barstow and Ken Loundes during the summer of 1937 a team which never lost a match. Whilst at Teddington I played with the second team of one of the local clubs for two seasons visiting a variety of grounds in the London area. During my time in the RAF I played for my Station on three occasions, at Aberystwyth, Brighton on the County Ground and at Odiham. After playing tennis in Buxton local parks I became a member and later treasurer of Buxton Gardens Lawn Tennis Club. Situated at the end of the Promenade and now a car park. One year my partner and I won the mixed doubles championship. During this period I was a member of main committee of the Buxton Lawn Tennis Championship held every year on both grass and hard courts. It finished in 1954 due to rapid demand for expenses we actually had the [cough] all England Ladies Championships at Buxton. Wimbledon wanted it but because we had it first they couldn’t get it until this period when the Buxton Council had to stop on[?] our new tennis tournament. On the horticultural side I hope my Father with his larger op [unclear] for seven years until he died. When I later went to Moseley Road I managed to have a good floral display in containers and troughs both in the front and sides of the house and on the back patio. Many eh of the flowers I grew from seed. In 1980 I was invited to join the Buxton Archaeological and History Society where I was eventually made a life member and at the time of speaking in 2016 I am the longest active member there. I still, the last talk I gave was at the AGM in February this year. I had a particular interest in Buxton history particularly the development of local Government and the first local board in 1859 the late Mr Glyn Jones [unclear] Chief of High Peak kindly gave access to the early records. I addressed the Society on a number of occasions and contributed at various times to the periodic and newsletter which the subscribed, which eh was started doing in my term as Chairman. My most important work was to make a study of the subscribers to the Buxton Ballroom in the Crescent which from when it opened in 1788 until the final year in 1840 no one else appears to have done it in the detail I went to. So I like to think that I made a reasonable contribution to Buxton history. In eighteen nine, sorry in 1986 I met my Mike Langham and Colin Wills who just completed their first book Buxton Waters in type script and they asked me to read their rough draft in case they had made any statements to which the Buxton Residents would raise their eyebrows. This is the start of a happy improved friendship which included their next six books or so. We were all delighted when Mike was awarded a Doctorate in local history and saddened by his early death. From about 1962 I started making a collection of antique boxes, tea caddies, desk boxes and snuff boxes and various items of tring which after giving some to friends will eventually go to the National Trust. After giving about fifty of our Fathers collection to the local museum and art gallery and twenty or so to friends in memory of our Parents the remainder are willed to the Buxton and Opera House Trust. When the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme was set up I was a representative of Moseley Road for the first ten years of its existence passing it on when I was eighty years of age, quite an interesting job. In about 1990 I was invited to join the Committee of Friends of Buxton Hospital on which I served for a number of years helping with efforts to raise money. At one time I was the Chairman this brought me a whole new spectrum of friends of course. Because of my knowledge of local history I have been sought of for various local publications from 1984 to 2015 for which due acknowledgement was printed. I now found at the age of eighty, ninety five I am consulted for my memory of the late 1920’s and 30’s, all rather a pleasure I never expected to have.
CB. Brilliant that is really good.
OG. I have had my finger in a lot of pies, I have been very lucky I have had a very interesting life.
CB. Thank you very much Oliver.
OG. I hope that is roughly what you want.
CB. I think that will do exactly what we want.
Dublin Core
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Title
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interview with Oliver Gomersal
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-30
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:35:43 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGomersalO160530
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter
Description
An account of the resource
Oliver Gomersal was navigator with 621 Squadron stationed in East Africa and Aden. On 2 May 1944 his Wellington successfully attacked a German submarine, U852.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Indian Ocean
Yemen (Republic)
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Yemen (Republic)--Socotra
Kenya
Kenya--Nairobi
Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-05-02
621 Squadron
aircrew
navigator
submarine
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1047/11425/PNeilsonNS1604.2.jpg
ef8755be2443de302fe785868107d14a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1047/11425/ANeilsonN160422.1.mp3
ba1b75c4a9c7d0004c895ce3bc5ca186
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Neilson, Norman
Norman Stephen Neilson
N S Neilson
Norrey Neilson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Norman Neilson (b. 1924, 1823749, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 103, 582, 550 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Neilson, NS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Flight Sergeant Norman Steven Neilson, also known as Norrey on Friday the 22nd of April at 10.30 in the morning at his home in Longton near Preston. Also with me is Norrey’s son, Ian. Ok. So, Norrey, if you would please just confirm your service number and your date of birth.
NN: 1823749. 18 23 749.
BW: And your date of birth was?
NN: 12 2 ‘24.
BW: Ok. Let’s put that further up there. And where were you born?
NN: In Glasgow. Springburn.
BW: Ok. And within your family how many of you were there? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
NN: Yeah. Six of us.
BW: Six.
NN: Six wasn’t there?
BW: And what, what were, what were they? There was, was there two boys and four girls?
NN: Four boys and two girls. Yeah.
BW: Four boys and two girls.
NN: I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. Stuart, Tommy — he was lost in the Navy.
BW: So there was Stuart, Tommy, yourself.
IN: Jackie. Jackie and Margaret.
NN: Jackie. Margaret.
IN: They were, they were twins.
NN: Eh?
IN: Jackie and Margaret were twins.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And who was your other sister?
IN: May.
NN: May.
BW: May.
NN: She was the good one [laughs]
BW: And what was, what was your family life like in Glasgow at the time?
NN: Oh it was fairly good. Yeah. We didn’t have much but we always, we always enjoyed ourselves. Looked after each other.
BW: Was it, were you living in the town centre or were you sort of out of in the country a bit.
NN: No. I was in a big tenement building wasn’t it?
IN: A big tenement. Yeah.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And then he moved to Springburn.
NN: To Springburn. Yeah, a long way.
IN: You joined the Springburn Harriers.
NN: The Springburn Harriers. Yeah.
BW: So that, that was when you were — when we were talking before and you said you started running at an early age.
NN: Yeah.
BW: What sort of age would you be there? Pre-teens or something like that?
NN: Yeah. About fourteen, I think. Wasn’t it?
BW: And the club was called Springburn Harriers.
NN: Springburn Harriers. Yeah.
IN: That was one of the first running clubs in Britain wasn’t it?
NN: Yeah. And I won the championship there didn’t I?
IN: You won the cross country championship.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Right. And whereabouts did you go to school?
NN: [unclear] school.
IN: Only —
NN: Eh?
IN: Only until you were about ten or eleven or something.
NN: Yeah.
IN: That was in Springburn and all wasn’t it?
NN: Springburn. Yeah.
BW: And I believe from there you left school and you joined St Rollox Locomotive Works.
NN: That’s right. Yeah. Apprentice engineer. I was a, I was good as well.
BW: And what attracted you to that? Why did you want to go in the railway yards?
IN: Well —
BW: The locomotive works.
NN: Well —
IN: His brothers were —
NN: I wanted to go to university but we couldn’t afford that so it was the next best thing.
IN: Well, they said, the headmaster said that he was good enough to go to university but his parents couldn’t afford to get him there.
NN: Yeah. I was good enough.
IN: And his two brothers were in the railway yards weren’t they?
NN: Yeah. He was, even at that age I said, ‘You’re talking, talking daft. Me go to university. No chance.’ When your father was a labourer. Six kids in the family. How could he get me into university? And the teacher said, he was always saying. ‘We could get you in to university.’ I said to him [unclear] I knew better.
IN: Yeah. Was it because your brothers were in the railway that you went?
NN: Yeah.
IN: I think you said that your mother had found, had a friend who said there was a place for you.
NN: What?
IN: Your mother said there was a place for you in the railway.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Go along.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Yeah.
BW: And you arranged an interview there. You had the interview and you met another apprentice called Andy Stirling. Was that right?
NN: Andy Stirling. Yeah. My old mate. Andy Stirling. Yeah.
IN: He went to India, didn’t he?
NN: India was it?
IN: I think you said he went to India.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And went to work on the railways in India.
NN: Yeah.
IN: He was trying to help them to —
NN: Yeah. He did well.
IN: Do everything to keep the railways going in India.
NN: Aye. Aye.
IN: So he, so he didn’t join up with you.
NN: No. Oh no. He was a bit, he was cleverer than me. He was a smart lad he was.
IN: Yeah. Well you tried to get them all to join didn’t you?
NN: Yeah.
IN: But that was the Navy.
BW: And your brother Tommy.
NN: Yeah.
BW: At this time had joined the Navy once war had started.
NN: Yeah.
BW: I understand he volunteered for the Navy.
NN: Yeah.
BW: What, what happened to him?
NN: He was lost in a submarine. Talisman.
IN: Talisman. Yeah.
NN: It was called the Talisman. Yeah.
IN: Record —
BW: Do you know what happened to the submarine?
NN: Well, no, you know —
IN: Seen the records on the internet. It just said that they think it was blown up by a mine off the coast of Sicily.
NN: Yeah. Called the Talisman.
BW: What was he in the crew? Do you know what role he did in the, what his function was?
NN: Engineer.
IN: Engineer.
BW: Like yourself.
IN: He was on the railways as well.
IN: Yeah.
BW: And so at this time in the early, very early parts of the war what prompted you to join the RAF?
NN: Because since my brother they wouldn’t let me go. I was looking into, there was something about occupation. I said, ‘Why can he go?’ ‘Oh. He’s volunteering for aircrew.’ ‘So put me down as well. I’ll be aircrew.’ And that’s how I got in. I wanted to join the Navy but I finished up in a Lancaster.
BW: So originally you wanted to join the Navy.
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: And that I believe, was it because Tommy had been killed that you wanted to join up?
NN: Yeah. He was. Yeah. He was, he was lost in the Talisman submarine.
BW: But the [pause] is it correct that your manager wouldn’t let you join the Navy? You tried to get all your mates to join up.
NN: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And he wouldn’t let you.
NN: No. ‘You’ve got to stay at home, lad. We need you here.’ But anyway, when I found out that this other lad had got, ‘Well why is he going then?’ Well, he’s volunteered for aircrew.’ ‘Well, put me down.’ I wanted the Navy but I finished up on aircrew. I did a good job there as well.
BW: But he, he made a model, didn’t he? Of the submarine.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Or of a submarine.
NN: That’s right. Yeah.
IN: I still have that model.
NN: Pardon?
IN: I still have the model don’t I?
NN: Yeah. You have. Yeah. Yeah. He was the good one. He was the favourite. I wasn’t the favourite but we, we were he was the best of the lot.
BW: He was the best of the lot.
NN: I was a bad boy I one. I was. I was a bad egg. I wouldn’t take any, I wouldn’t take anything for an answer.
BW: Did you ever, did you get in trouble at all?
NN: Oh I always was.
BW: During your early life.
NN: All the time. I was always in trouble. Shooting my head off.
IN: Outspoken.
NN: I was a terror. I were a terror I was. I wouldn’t take anything from nobody.
BW: So what year was it when you joined up? When abouts would it be?
NN: 19 — it was wasn’t it?
IN: 1944. I think.
NN: Twenty. ’43.
IN: 1943.
NN: ’43. Yeah.
BW: And you went into, presumably the Recruiting Office in Glasgow.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And, and signed up.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you tell anybody in your family you’d done it?
NN: No. No. I didn’t. I didn’t, I didn’t want to upset my mother because she already had lost one son. But anyway I kept that quiet.
BW: And what about —
IN: You said you were working south didn’t you?
NN: Eh?
IN: You were going south to work.
BW: What about your other brothers? Did they join up as well?
NN: No. They were, they came, they went after the war, wasn’t it? Stuart.
IN: Stuart had bad eyesight.
NN: Bad eyesight. Yeah.
IN: Same as your father. He tried to join the First World War and his eyesight.
NN: Yeah. Yeah.
IN: Was to no good.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And then Jackie was too young.
NN: Too young. Yeah.
BW: And when you went to the air force did you know what you wanted to do as a trade? Or, or were you just open to whatever they offered you?
NN: Oh yeah. Yeah. I wanted to fly. I wanted to, I wanted to end the fight. So when they said, ‘You can be a flight engineer.’ ‘Ok. I’ll do that.’
IN: You went to Cardiff didn’t you?
NN: Yeah. Cardiff. Yeah.
IN: For the training. I think that was towards the end of ’43 wasn’t it?
NN: Yeah. ’42. Yeah.
IN: No. ’43.
NN: I liked Cardiff. It was great down there.
BW: And what was your training like? Do you recall much of your training at Cardiff? Your engineering training. Was it —
NN: Yeah.
BW: Was it good?
NN: It was a good training. It was really good. It was. It was — how long was it?
IN: I think you were six months weren’t you?
NN: Six months. Yeah. Six months training. Yeah. Come out on top.
BW: You finished on, on top of the class.
NN: Yeah. I was, I was always there.
BW: And from there what happened? Did you go to a training unit or did you, did you meet up with your crew? What happened next after you’d finished at Cardiff?
NN: I’m trying to think.
IN: Went to St —
NN: I went —
IN: I can’t think of the name the place in Bedfordshire. You went to Bedfordshire didn’t you?
NN: Pardon?
IN: You went in to Bedfordshire.
NN: Bedfordshire. Yeah.
IN: And you met a crew there that you were going to join.
NN: Yeah. That’s right. Bedfordshire.
IN: Yeah. But they, didn’t they say they had a friend coming that was going to join them so you said you’d get the next crew. Do you remember that? They were —
NN: Who?
IN: So, the crew that you were going to join they said they had another friend that was going to join them.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: So you said you’d join the next crew.
NN: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
IN: Yeah. And then you met Ron Wright.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Right Ron.
NN: If I’d have gone on that crew — they got lost didn’t they?
IN: Yeah.
BW: So the original crew that you met and you said because they’ve got a friend coming I’ll join the next one.
NN: Yeah.
BW: They went off on their first mission the day after and —
NN: Were lost.
BW: Were lost.
NN: Yeah.
BW: But the crew that you then teamed up with.
NN: Ron Wright.
BW: Yeah. How did, how did you meet them?
IN: It was in this place in Bedfordshire wasn’t it?
NN: Aye. I went. I meet them. They come in. And the crews came in and they said oh ‘You’re going with this crew. So this is Ron Wright.’ That’s the way. You went there. The crew you got they’d been flying in small aircraft. Now they’re getting an engineer like me so they are going on to Lancasters so they make the proper crew. So I was the end. I said, ‘Right. I’ll go with them.’ Yeah. You know.
BW: And it was —
NN: There was, they had a crew but they wanted an engineer to go on to Lancasters. So, so I said, ‘I’ll go with him. Yeah. Sure.’
BW: And this was Ron Wright.
NN: Ron Wright. He was a good lad, Ron. Lost him didn’t we?
BW: And do you recall the names of the other crew men?
NN: [unclear] the Welsh. There was a Welshman wasn’t there? He was the, he was a grandfather.
BW: Grandpa. The oldest one of the crew.
IN: He was thirty two wasn’t he? Or something.
NN: Yeah. Thirty two. He was a straight one.
IN: I think you said he went, he was English but he went to Australia and joined the Australian Air Force and then got sent back here.
NN: Yeah. A Scottie here. A little Scottie here. A little Scottie here. And he was, and he was from [pause] he was Scottish. From Dundee. He was from Newcastle was it? Framlin. He was a Canadian.
BW: Framlin was a Canadian. Yeah.
NN: Canadian. Yeah. And he was a youngster wasn’t he?
IN: The names —
NN: Edward. Edward. Eastwood.
BW: Eastwood. Jack Eastwood.
NN: Jack Eastwood. He was a good lad. I used to, used to pal up with him a lot. We were good together. Yeah. Eastwood.
BW: So there was, there was yourself. There was Sergeant Ron Adam who was the mid-upper.
NN: Who?
BW: Ron.
IN: Adam.
BW: Adam. Ron Adam.
NN: No Adam. No. Ron Wright.
IN: No. There was the gunner.
NN: Eh?
BW: The mid-upper.
IN: I think he was the upper gunner.
NN: Who?
IN: Adam.
NN: Oh, John Adam.
IN: John.
NN: Oh yeah. He was a real Scottie.
IN: Right.
BW: And there was Norman Kelso.
NN: Kelso. That’s right.
BW: And he was the navigator. He was the Australian navigator.
NN: Norman Kelso. Yeah. He was from, he was in the Australian Air Force wasn’t he?
IN: You said he was being paid more than you.
NN: Pardon?
IN: Because the Australian Air Force were paying people more.
NN: Yeah. That’s right.
BW: And Ron Wright the pilot.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Jack Eastwood the wireless operator.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And then Framlin. Do you know what, what was Framlin’s first name? Was it George?
NN: Fram. Oh Framlin. Where was he supposed to be? Used to call him Fram. Gerald. Gerald Framlin.
BW: Gerald.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And he was the bomb aimer.
NN: Yeah. He was a good lad.
BW: And then Garrick.
NN: Gary.
IN: Garrick.
BW: Garrick, the rear gunner.
NN: Garrick. Yeah.
BW: What was his first name? Was it John?
NN: No.
IN: Was it James?
NN: Eh?
IN: Was it James?
NN: We just called him Gary.
BW: Gary.
NN: Gary.
BW: And you were given — when you arrived at Elsham Wolds.
NN: Yeah. Elsham.
BW: You were known as Ron’s crew. Is that right?
NN: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Or Wright.
IN: Wright’s crew.
BW: Wright’s crew. Yeah.
NN: Ron Wright’s crew.
IN: Wright’s crew. Yeah.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you have another nickname for the crew?
[pause]
IN: Some of them was never there. What did they used to call it because one person never turned up?
NN: Yeah.
IN: The phantom crew was it?
NN: Eh?
IN: They called them the phantom crew.
NN: Aye. The phantom crew. That’s right. There was always, there was always somebody missing.
BW: And what, what were the guys like? What were the crew, what were the other crew members like?
NN: Oh alright. We got on alright together. All went out drinking together.
BW: All went out drinking together.
NN: I didn’t drink much. I was sober. I was sober. I always made sure they got home.
BW: So you were always the sensible one.
NN: Yeah. I was the sensible one. Yeah.
IN: Always refusing cigarettes weren’t you?
NN: Pardon?
IN: You were always refusing cigarettes.
NN: Oh I wouldn’t have cigarettes. I wouldn’t have it.
IN: Just exchange.
NN: They were always saying, ‘Have a smoke.’ No. Because we got, we got a special —
IN: Ration.
NN: Ration. So I used to give them my ration.
IN: Swap them for sweets.
NN: Eh?
IN: You would swap them for sweets.
NN: Sweets. Yeah.
IN: Send them home to the kids.
NN: They would always say, ‘Have a smoke.’ I’d say, ‘I don’t want your smoke. I don’t want your smoke.’ Never did.
BW: And you, was that because you were keen on your running?
NN: Running. Yeah. That’s the job. ‘I’m a runner. I don’t want your smoke.’ It’s not good for you anyway.
IN: Yeah. They didn’t know the problems in those days as much did they?
NN: No. They didn’t.
IN: And did, you always stayed sober as well. Even when you went out socialising you never drank.
NN: Oh yeah. No. I never overdid it. Never overdid it. Maybe just once I think. Just —
IN: Remember that time? That time in —
NN: I would always stop.
IN: That time in Huntingdon when you went to the dance.
NN: Oh yeah. They were going to throw us out.
IN: What happened when the MPs came for you?
NN: The MPs come.
IN: And what were you doing in the street?
NN: Pardon?
IN: What were you doing in the street? You’re going to have to talk and tell.
BW: You were doing a doing a — you were doing a Hitler salute.
NN: We were doing the Nazi salute, ‘We’re going to join the German Air Force. They’re doing better than you. Better than you’ve done for us.’
IN: You were marching up the street shouting.
NN: Beg your pardon?
IN: You were marching up the street shouting. You were joining Hitler’s Air Force. Yeah. No one —.
NN: The Luftwaffe. Yeah.
IN: And then what happened? You got arrested didn’t you? And then they tried to court martial you.
NN: Yeah. And this, this guy got us off.
IN: Yeah.
NN: He was a good, a good solicitor.
BW: What was —
NN: He said, he said, ‘Just tell me exactly what you said.’ I said, ‘But you don’t want that.’ ‘Tell me exactly everything. Don’t leave anything out.’
IN: They were in the courtroom and they had to show them what, they had to show them what happened.
NN: So he got, they started getting all this stuff out and I thought, Oh God. And then this solicitor said, ‘Right. All that stuff is nul and void. You can’t use that.’ And he got me off. And I’d been in the —
IN: Yeah.
NN: [unclear]
IN: But you were the only that wasn’t drunk.
NN: Pardon?
IN: You were the only one that wasn’t drunk.
NN: Yeah. I was in [unclear]
BW: And did you, did you fly the same aircraft each time? Were you regularly on the same Lancaster?
NN: No. Not really. No. Sometimes we swapped them. Mainly that one was we always landed up with. Whichever one was available they put you on it but we stuck. Seemed to finish up with this one.
BW: And did you have a nickname for your plane? What did you know it as?
NN: [unclear]
IN: I don’t think you’ve ever mentioned that.
BW: That’s alright. Did you, did you have any preparations or rituals before you got on the aircraft? Once you’d been briefed what would you do as a crew then?
IN: How would you check, check the plane out?
NN: Yeah.
IN: Just make sure it worked alright.
NN: Yeah. Check it twice. Check everything twice and then we’ll go.
BW: And I believe your first operation was to Stettin.
NN: Oh Stettin. Oh.
BW: What do you recall of that?
NN: Oh it was terrible was that. We went there.
IN: How many hours were you in the plane?
NN: Eleven hours wasn’t it?
BW: Eleven hours.
NN: Yeah. Oh it was a terrible flight that was. The first one we got. We got back. I don’t know how we got back at all but we got back. We finished.
BW: What, what happened? What was significant about the flight?
NN: I think the wheels had stuck up. Was it? The wheel. One of the wheels had jammed up and we had to go around and around and try and shake them off. And he finished up with saying, ‘Right. We’ve got to go in and land. So we landed then. We landed on the wheel and we were down, bang. Luckily the wheel went down and we crash landed. We got away with it.
BW: Nobody was injured.
NN: Pardon?
BW: Nobody was injured.
NN: Nobody was injured. No.
IN: What happened on the way back though? I mean you were talking about jumping out and going to Sweden.
NN: Sweden, aye. Yeah. Sweden. Yeah. Neutral country. ‘We’ve had enough of this. Let’s, let’s go to Sweden Joe.’ [laughs] Anyway, the navigator, ‘If you tell that I’ll tell on you. I’ll tell what you’ve done.’ So we had to just get out of that and get back.
BW: The navigator was the oldest guy in the crew.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Wasn’t he?
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: And he didn’t want to jump because he couldn’t swim.
NN: Yeah. He wanted to get back. You’d think he would have made it. Oh we were a rum crew we were.
BW: And then the next time or one of the early missions was to Stuttgart.
NN: Stuttgart. Yeah.
BW: Stuttgart. What do you recall of that?
NN: It wasn’t very good. I don’t think it was. We got caught in the searchlights. One of the wings got shot up and we had to stagger back. Anyway, we got back. Eventually we got back. I think one of the wings was damaged. We had to do a crash landing. We got away with that as well.
BW: Were you diverted from your normal airfield?
NN: Yeah. We went to —
BW: Somewhere in Oxfordshire was it?
NN: Oxfordshire. Yeah. It was. What was the name of the place? What was it?
IN: Lincolnshire was foggy wasn’t it?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Lincolnshire was very foggy.
NN: That’s right. Yeah.
IN: You couldn’t land there.
NN: We had to get diverted.
IN: Yeah. As you were coming in to land there was two fighter planes coming at you.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Shooting at you.
NN: Yeah.
IN: You jumped in to fire at, back at them.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And then you fell into the nose cone didn’t you?
NN: Yeah.
BW: So on the way, on the way in to this diversionary airfield your aircraft was attacked.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And what, what do you recall of that?
NN: We had to do, do evasive action. And he would [pause] I told the pilot, ‘Dive. Dive down. Go as long as you can then pull out and swing around. And we just managed, makes me sick now, managed to pull out in time before we hit the ground. We got around again and then we landed.
BW: And I believe that one of the fighters was coming head on.
NN: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And —
NN: Anyway, then we shot, we went down he went over the top of us.
IN: You were down in the nose cone shooting at them.
NN: Yeah.
BW: So you dived. You told the pilot to dive.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And to take evasive action.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And the fighter went over. Overhead.
NN: And I was firing at it all the time.
BW: From the front turret.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you see any strikes on the aircraft?
NN: Well I think —
BW: Or did you just scare him off.
NN: We thought we’d hit it but we said we didn’t find out any more about it. I thought I’d damaged it anyway. Because I was in the nose going like hell.
IN: Yeah. And then your foot slipped and you dropped down the stairs.
NN: That’s right [laughs] finished down in the nose.
IN: When the plane landed the tyre burst didn’t it?
NN: Yeah. It burst. Yeah.
BW: So you were lucky to get away with that one.
NN: We were. Yeah. Lucky. That was a rum one that was.
IN: Yeah. And in the morning you had a look at what, where you were didn’t you?
NN: Couldn’t believe it.
IN: How far away were you from the conning tower?
NN: About ten yards or something.
BW: Really?
NN: We were heading for the conning tower.
BW: So you were that close to the air traffic control.
NN: And then he put the brake on.
BW: And were you, did you say you were trying to brake the, to apply the brakes?
NN: Yeah.
BW: On the aircraft.
NN: Yeah. And it stopped. I don’t know where we were when we got out, when we went out there and saw the ground. Oh God. We were going straight ahead to the control tower. Only about twenty yards away or something like that.
BW: Wow. And then going into October you were tasked with a raid on Cologne.
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: But it says in your log that you returned early. Do you recall what happened?
NN: I’m trying to think what it was. Something was. We had to turn back hadn’t we?
IN: Was there a problem with the engines?
NN: Might have been. A problem with something. Something. Probably the engines. One of the engines was acting up. I think it was. And so we couldn’t manage so we decided to turn back. And we got away with that.
BW: And what, what happened in those sorts of situations? When you had to turn back were you interrogated by the senior officer or anything?
NN: Oh yeah. Yeah. When you got back. Why did you do it? And all that. Well, you told them why. And they said oh you were right enough to do that. That was the right thing to do. Right again.
BW: Well, you’ve got to make the decision as the engineer.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Whether you’re going to push on or you’re going to save people’s lives and come back.
NN: Yeah. That’s right.
BW: And then following on from from that there was an attack on a ball bearing factory in Holland.
NN: Holland. Holland. Yeah. Where was that now?
IN: That was the guy that wanted to go across there with you and stayed at so many feet above. He was higher up above giving you the orders to go down.
NN: He wanted to have a look. A better look.
IN: He was cut out by the Germans wasn’t he?
NN: Yeah. I said, ‘If you want a better look you go yourself. We’re going on. We’re carrying on.’
IN: And wasn’t that —
NN: Eh?
IN: Wasn’t that the one where two planes were shot down in front of you?
NN: Yeah.
IN: Yeah. Because the Germans had cut down him out on the —
NN: Yeah.
IN: And said it was alright to go down.
NN: Yeah. It was a ropey do that was.
IN: You didn’t like it did you? When you got back?
NN: No.
IN: Because they said it was a successful mission.
NN: Some successful mission that was.
BW: So, during these, these sorts of operations, during these flights what are you generally doing as a flight engineer? What kind of things are you doing?
NN: Looking at everything. Checking everything. Seeing everything was alright.
IN: What happened if an engine got hot?
NN: Oh, used to turn it down. Cut the engine off. Let it cool down a bit and leave it for about ten, twenty minutes and open up again. They was alright. Ok again. It cooled down because it was, it was overheating. If you leave it and it overheats you’d lost the engine. So I used to say, ‘Right. Shut it down and fly. Fly for about twenty minutes. Then try it again.’ And it was alright. Oh, I always checked. Check everything. Make sure it was right.
BW: And so, on a, this would be done regularly on a trip. That you would in effect I suppose rotate your engines.
NN: Yeah.
BW: If they were getting hot.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Shut one down. Feather the prop.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And then run it back up again.
NN: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Give it up to twenty minutes then start it up again. See if it goes and was ok. Off we went.
BW: And were you able always to keep with the other bomber force doing that?
NN: Oh yeah. Yeah. We managed.
BW: Did you, did you or the pilot have to run the other engines at a higher speed to make up for the loss of the fourth engine or not?
NN: Yeah. Some of the time. Yeah. If you were on three engines and had one idling. And when it had a rest you start it up again and it was ok like. Four engines again. Oh yeah, you had to look after them. A lot of lads used to let it go and you lost that engine. That was it. You never said it. I always say give it a rest. Give it twenty minutes. Try it again. And then it was alright so you had four engines on again. A lot of them they didn’t do things like that. They’d say that engine was cut. Gone. Flying on three engines. Then when you’re on three engines then your down to two engines. You were worse then.
BW: So in a way they were riding their luck weren’t they?
NN: Oh they were. Yeah. I always checked. I always, I always looked after the engines. Give them a rest. We always finished up on four engines. Every time. That’s what I wanted.
BW: And you were given at one point the Phantom of the Ruhr.
NN: Oh aye.
IN: And it had already done a hundred and twenty one missions.
NN: Yeah. That’s right.
IN: And you were given this aircraft to fly.
NN: Yeah.
IN: What did you think about that?
NN: Made a fuss about it. It was a hundred and twenty. A hundred and twenty missions it had done, I think, hadn’t it? I think it wanted a rest. Anyway, we took it and managed to get it back.
IN: What happened though? You took it up and you brought it back again didn’t you?
NN: Pardon?
IN: You took it up and you brought it back again because it was, wasn’t working properly.
NN: Oh no.
IN: And they tried to court martial you for it.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Do you remember?
NN: And the sergeant got me off.
BW: And that was the, you’re getting two things mixed up I think. Remember you said that you were on your way on the mission.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And the engines were so bad.
NN: Yeah.
BW: You rang up to say we’ll have to take the second plane.
NN: Yeah.
IN: But they said that had gone. You know, the spare plane.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And that had gone hadn’t it?
NN: That had gone.
BW: But you said you had to make a decision whether to carry on or go back.
NN: Yeah.
BW: You went back.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And they put, told you to stay in the barracks until —
NN: Yeah. They were going to court martial.
BW: But they found that it was wrong didn’t they?
NN: Yeah. Oh it was. Yeah.
IN: And what was wrong with it?
NN: It was something to do with the engines. It was faulty.
IN: The engines were no good but the fuselage was —
NN: Yeah.
IN: What? Like a corkscrew.
NN: Yeah. Was like a corkscrew.
IN: And one of the wings was hanging down low.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Yeah.
NN: Oh aye. You didn’t get away with much with them lot but they had you out there. When this, this, the guy we had he looked. He said, ‘You were right. You did the right thing.’ So we got away with that.
BW: But your pilot stood by you didn’t he?
NN: Oh he did. Yeah.
BW: He asked your opinion of what the faults meant.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And it seemed that you could make the target.
NN: Yeah. My pilot said, ‘My engineer said.’ That’s what he, the pilot said, ‘My engineer said —'
IN: Yeah.
NN: [laughs] Oh God.
BW: So you could —
NN: He knew I was right.
BW: You could make the target.
NN: Yeah.
BW: But you couldn’t get back.
NN: Couldn’t get back. Yeah.
BW: And so were you hauled up before the CO?
NN: Yeah. And, and in front of him this flying officer come on and he turned it all around and he got me off with it. They were going to court martial me for good then.
BW: Well, if they had found that the aircraft was actually serviceable.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And you had called them back.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Then yeah you’d have been court martialled.
NN: Yeah. But it was this lad got me [laughs] he made it right. Said, ‘You were right to do that.’ Yeah. Because you’d have, you’d have lost the crew. That’s what I was thinking about. I was thinking about them. Not only myself. Six other boys relying on me. I had to make a decision so I decided on that. Six lads. Look after them. Anyway, he got me off. He was a, he was good, that guy. He knew his job all right. He got me off with it.
BW: And so you what, what sort of indications were you getting then because this, this was happening in mid-air wasn’t it?
NN: Oh yeah. I didn’t think we were going to get anywhere with it.
IN: Didn’t you say the engine sounded really bad.
NN: Yeah.
IN: You said it sounded so rough. And the —
NN: Yeah.
IN: Meter readings on it were all over the place.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Because they had to be at a certain level on the instruments.
NN: Instruments. Yeah. Yeah they wanted. So I told them what I thought and they decided ok, you’re going on a court martial. I said ok. Anyway, he got me off. I did the right thing.
BW: And so what happened to the bombs? Because you hadn’t gone over the target.
NN: We had to —
BW: Presumably you couldn’t land with a full bomb load.
NN: No I didn’t. Just ditched them. Made sure it was over Germany. We were dropping them on Germany. Make a good job of it. I think it was Bremen it was.
BW: Near Bremen.
NN: Near Bremen it was. They’d be sorry about me.
BW: But you managed to get the aircraft back.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Safely.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And then when you landed you’d gone before the CO and explained to him.
NN: Yeah.
BW: But you were then detained for three days in barracks weren’t you?
NN: Yeah. Till it was all sorted out. ‘Don’t speak to anybody. Don’t say anything. Stay there.’
IN: You went to find out about it didn’t you? Find out what had happened. You went to the, to where the plane was to see what had happened with it. What did the engineer there say?
NN: Eh?
IN: What did the engineer say to you?
NN: It was rubbish it was. It’s a shambles.
IN: It had already been taken away hadn’t it?
NN: Yeah. Taken away to scrap. They’d have scrapped it. I got away with that as well. Anyway, the thing is when you’re the engineer six other lads are relying on you making the decision. So I had to do it. That’s what I did. It’s not just for yourself. There’s another six crew members.
BW: And did they, did they appreciate what you’d done afterwards?
NN: I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: So, as a, as a crew during these sorts of missions what was the atmosphere like on the, on the squadron? Were you, were you sort of living for today as it were?
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: Was there that sort of atmosphere? Let’s —
NN: Yeah. Just take each day as it comes. Take each day as it comes. Yeah. We carried on. Carried on regardless.
BW: And where were you? Where were you billeted on the base? Were you in quarters or were you in a Nissen hut or something?
NN: We were in quarters weren’t we?
IN: I don’t know. I wasn’t there [laughs]
NN: It was. Yeah. We were all together we were. All the crew. Always stuck together. Even the pilot. He went, he came with us as well. He was an officer like but he went with us. All stuck together. He was a good lad he was.
BW: And you, during 1944 you were flying missions over France as well as Germany.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you notice any particular difference in terms of targets? Difficulty. Were they, were they easier when you went to France or more difficult in Germany? Or —
NN: No. I don’t think they were really. Some of them, some of them were awkward. The awkward ones you had to be very careful about what you did. Took it easy then.
BW: And with the long trips did you have plenty to keep you occupied?
NN: Had to keep awake.
BW: Was that the hardest thing?
NN: Oh yeah. Keeping awake. Keep drinking.
IN: Night missions weren’t they?
NN: Pardon?
IN: They were all night missions.
NN: Yeah. They were.
IN: The Americans had the day.
NN: Aye. They did.
IN: Because they got lost otherwise.
BW: So how did you, how did you manage to keep awake? What did you —
NN: I don’t know how I managed to keep. I had to keep awake. Keep kicking myself.
BW: Yeah.
NN: And another cup of tea. Aye. It was hard work really because when you’re eleven, eleven hours in the air it’s hard work. Aye. It wasn’t easy.
IN: Did you talk a lot to Ron?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Did you talk a lot with Ron?
NN: Yeah.
IN: A lot of talk.
NN: Yeah. Aye. I miss him alright. I couldn’t believe they sent him off because I had to, I had to stay behind. They sent him with another crew. They couldn’t wait for five days though. I was away only for five days. They couldn’t wait. Put him, put him with another crew.
IN: And was this towards the end of your tour?
NN: Yeah. Yeah. It was running. When I went to —
IN: White City.
NN: Eh?
IN: White City.
NN: White City. Yeah. For running. Yeah. When I got back they said, ‘Oh, you’re going with another crew.’ They didn’t tell me what had happened. Ron went with another, another flight engineer.
BW: And was this the time when Ron and Jack, was it when Ron and Jack Eastwood were away flying together or was this —
NN: Yeah.
BW: Was this a different time?
IN: That was when they went away wasn’t it?
NN: Pardon?
IN: When you went to White City they went.
NN: Yeah.
IN: That’s when they had their accident.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Yeah.
NN: Ron. Jack.
IN: There was only a skeleton crew because they were only doing circuits.
NN: Circuits and bumps. Yeah.
BW: And so you’d been selected to run.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And you attended the races at White City.
NN: White City. Yeah.
IN: The RAF wasn’t it?
BW: Yeah. And your crew was sent on another mission and they were killed.
NN: Yeah. I said, ‘Why couldn’t they wait for five, five days?’ Go, go, go. Pushing and pushing. But I mean when you were in a crew you knew what each other were going to do. I relied on the captain. He relied on me making the decision. When you get somebody else in well that goes to pot.
BW: And you said before you had a good working relationship.
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: A very good relationship with Ron Wright.
NN: Oh yeah. He knew what he was going to do and he knew what I was going to do. And we knew. And that’s the way it had to be. You had to realise what he would think and what you would think. That’s the way it went. But I couldn’t understand them going. Sending him with another crew just for that. Only for five days. What was the rush? They never told me though until later. I found out later.
BW: Between, between 103 Squadron and the end of your tour you did a short time on 582 Squadron. Is that right?
NN: 582. Yeah.
BW: Which was Pathfinder force.
NN: Pathfinding. Yeah.
IN: That was after the Phantom of the Ruhr wasn’t it?
NN: Phantom of the Ruhr. Yeah.
IN: Yeah.
BW: And what kind of — was there a different approach to a mission as a Pathfinder than with a regular squadron?
NN: Yeah. Well yeah. They had a big talk before, you know. Before you went. What things are and what you were going to do and all that. But it was just, you just got to think what, got to think together what — the pilot and the flight engineer get together and decide what, how we’d manage it all and carry on.
BW: And how far ahead of the main force would you be?
NN: Well, with Pathfinders you’d be about be about [pause] you’d be about, you’d be quite a long a long way ahead of them because you had, you had to mark the target and then get out. And they would come up and follow. Follow the route.
BW: And did you have to linger around the target while the main force hit?
NN: No. Well, you had, you went around and round, and then you took off. Then they followed up.
IN: Did you have bombs as well?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Did you have bombs as well? Or just, just flares?
NN: Just flares. Yeah.
BW: Did not carry incendiaries?
NN: You had some incendiaries. Yeah.
BW: And that was at Little Staughton.
NN: Little Staughton. Little Staughton. Yeah.
BW: And you managed to stay together as a crew.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Moving from one squadron to 582 and then when you went on to 550 Squadron.
NN: 550. Yeah.
BW: How did you manage to achieve that? How did you manage to stay together as a crew and continue through three squadrons? Did you request it?
IN: I’m not sure. Did you go to 550 or was that just Ron?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Was it Ron? I’m not sure whether Ron and, I think 550 was when you went to White City wasn’t it? And they were moved on.
NN: 550. Yeah.
IN: I’m not sure that dad was in 550.
BW: Oh, I see.
IN: I think he went to White City and they were moved to —
NN: Yeah.
IN: To that one. To 550 afterward.
NN: Yeah. They were saying that when I come back they were going with another crew.
IN: That would be [unclear] day.
BW: So that, right. So that accident when they were killed happened when they were on 550 Squadron.
IN: Yeah.
BW: But you didn’t transfer with them.
IN: He stayed there.
BW: At that point.
NN: No.
BW: So your last unit was 582.
NN: Yeah. 582. Yeah.
BW: So, how many, how many operations did you fly with 103? Did you, did you do thirty missions with your first squadron and then continue with 582?
NN: 583.
IN: 103 was your first.
NN: Pardon?
IN: 103 was your first.
NN: 103. Yeah.
IN: That’s where you first met and you were transferred to the Pathfinders as a crew weren’t you?
NN: Yeah. Yeah.
IN: After the situation with the Phantom of the Ruhr.
NN: The pilot.
IN: The whole crew was moved.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Because you hadn’t, you hadn’t got your full number of operations by that stage had you?
NN: No.
BW: So you were only part way through your first tour when you were moved.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And you mentioned this being in relation to the situation with the Phantom of the Ruhr. Do you think that that might have been some sort of — well punishment might be the wrong word but —
NN: Yeah.
BW: Do you think there was a repercussion of bringing that plane back?
NN: Yeah.
BW: That resulted in you moving to 582 Squadron.
NN: Yeah.
IN: That’s what he thinks yeah.
BW: Yeah.
IN: He thought they were trying to get him out of the way.
NN: Yeah. They didn’t, they didn’t like me. People at the top didn’t like me.
BW: Did you have run-ins with your CO before or something?
NN: Pardon?
BW: Did you have run-ins with your CO before?
IN: Well, he tried to punch him, didn’t you? When —
NN: Pardon?
IN: That one when they, you went to Holland and dropped the bombs on the ball bearing company.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Factory. When he came back you wanted to punch the CO didn’t you?
NN: You what?
IN: You wanted to punch him because you’d lost two planes in front of you.
NN: Yeah. Aye. They had to hold me back.
BW: So you, he called it a successful mission.
NN: Yeah.
BW: This raid on the, on the ball bearing factory.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And you said it’s not a success because I’ve lost two.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Crews. Good mates.
IN: Yeah.
NN: They were holding me back, ‘Don’t. They’ll do you for that. You can’t go and punch one of them.’ Oh I was well mad.
BW: Did, did you know the guys on the other planes well?
NN: Pardon?
BW: Did you know the guys on the other planes well that had been lost?
NN: Yeah. I was [pause] What was the name? I can’t remember the name.
IN: You’d be out drinking together anyway wouldn’t you?
NN: Pardon?
IN: You would have all been out drinking together and —
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: You know, in the mess together.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And one of your last operations was in February 1945 and you were in the third wave over Dresden I believe.
NN: [unclear]
IN: Dresden.
BW: Dresden.
NN: Dresden. Yeah.
BW: What do you recall of that?
NN: A bit shaky it was.
IN: Can you remember it was seeing all the fire?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Seeing it all lit up.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And one of the crew wanted to take a photograph.
NN: Aye, well yeah, ‘You can forget about that. We’re going back.’ He wanted to go around again. I said, ‘I’m not going around. If you want to go on you go by yourself.’
BW: You had to go around twice didn’t you?
NN: Yeah.
BW: Because smoke obscured the targets?
NN: That’s right. Yeah.
BW: And you had to go around a second time.
NN: And then he wanted to go around again to get a photograph. I said, ‘You can get a photograph yourself. I’m not going.’
IN: That was a bad night for the RAF though wasn’t it?
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: They got condemned for it.
NN: You what?
IN: They got condemned.
NN: Aye.
IN: For Dresden. Even though it wasn’t their fault.
NN: What?
IN: Even though it wasn’t their fault.
NN: No.
IN: It was the wind that whipped up the flames.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: And set all the wooden houses aflame.
NN: Yeah. Yeah. Burned them down. Yeah.
IN: Ended up with a fire storm.
NN: Yeah. Fire storm. Right. All these places. Aye.
BW: Was that the only time you’d seen a city destroyed like that?
NN: Yeah. Fire. Terrible fire it was. Everything was [unclear] everything up. There was this firestorm wasn’t it?
IN: Yeah.
NN: All the wooden buildings as well. Everything on fire.
BW: And even, even at that stage was it — did you feel it was still heavily defended?
NN: Yeah.
IN: They were still firing at you.
NN: Pardon?
IN: Were they still firing at you?
NN: Oh yeah. It never stopped. Kept going. And we got out. Oh aye it was terrible. The fire was terrible. Couldn’t believe it. As you said all wooden houses wasn’t it? Every one of them up on flame.
BW: And afterwards were you told what had happened to the city afterwards? How did you find out later on what had happened?
NN: Who was it told us? [pause] Well, we couldn’t believe it, what had happened. Really. We knew it had been a fire storm like but we didn’t realise how bad it was really.
BW: Was much said about it afterwards?
NN: Pardon?
BW: Was much said about it afterwards?
NN: People. I think a lot of people didn’t like it.
IN: Yeah. It wasn’t. Do you think Harris should have been blamed for it?
NN: Eh?
IN: Do you think Harris should have been blamed for it?
NN: Not really. No. He got blamed for it didn’t he? Yeah. It was too much. But it was, it was a war wasn’t it? It was war. You had to keep on going. You had to do what you had to do.
IN: Wasn’t it the Russians that wanted you to bomb the communications there?
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: The Russians there said they wanted to get the communications bombed so that they could come into eastern Germany.
NN: Eastern. Eastern Germany. Yeah.
BW: And so at this point in February ’45 what was your sense of the war and its progression at that point? Was it, were you conscious of it coming to an imminent end or not?
NN: Oh. I thought it was. I thought it was coming to an end. Yeah. Felt things were. We’d got on top of things by then. I think it was, it was all going to be over.
BW: You were still having to fly missions though weren’t you?
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: And did they feel as tough in early ’45 as they did in ’44?
NN: Yeah. Not really. No. We thought we should have just left it, you know. We didn’t need to bomb any more. I mean the Germans were finished really weren’t they?
BW: And what happened when it was announced that the war was over? Do you recall where you were when you heard the announcement and what happened?
NN: I don’t remember really. It’s like that. It’s all over now, isn’t it?
IN: Where were you at the time?
NN: Where was I?
IN: You were in the army camp. No. The air force.
NN: Pardon?
IN: You were still in the air force weren’t you?
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: You were in the camp.
NN: Camp. Yeah.
IN: You didn’t celebrate.
NN: What?
IN: You didn’t celebrate.
NN: No. We didn’t celebrate. No.
BW: How long did you continue in the RAF for after that?
NN: Pardon?
BW: How long did you continue in the air force?
NN: Oh. Not long.
BW: Not long.
NN: No. As soon as I got out I was ready to get out. I’d had enough.
IN: You went to do some rescue missions though didn’t you?
NN: Oh I did do. Yeah. On the — over in Holland.
IN: Holland. Yeah. You went over that bridge that —
NN: Holland.
IN: Yeah. The Remagan Bridge.
NN: Remagen Bridge. Yeah.
IN: You saw it still standing when you went over it.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And then on the way back it had collapsed.
BW: Did your squadron help repatriate prisoners of war?
NN: Yeah.
BW: You did.
NN: Oh, we did. Yeah. We flew a lot of them back didn’t we?
IN: Dropping food parcels as well weren’t you?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Dropping food parcels.
NN: Food parcels. Yeah. Brought. Went to Germany. A lot of the camps, brought them, brought them straight back instead of them having to go all, all the way in trains and stuff. We flew in to, in there and brought the people from the camps. Put them on the plane. Flew them straight back. They were kissing the ground.
BW: They were so happy to be home.
NN: Oh aye.
BW: Kissing the ground.
NN: Oh aye. They got out the plane and they were [unclear] they were so relieved. We were glad to see them. It was a good effort really. Go there. Get them straight back. Not go on trains and boats. Straight in there, on the planes, straight home. And they kissed the ground.
BW: So you’d pick them up so they wouldn’t go on trains and boats.
NN: Yeah.
BW: You’d pick them up. Fly them straight back.
NN: Yeah.
BW: How many could you get in a plane? If you were flying Lancasters how many would you squash in?
NN: I think about twenty of us.
BW: Really?
NN: Yeah. All pushed in together. Oh, they were just put. They didn’t care. Get in there. They didn’t care where they were. And they’d never flown in an aircraft before. They were in, in the middle of it.
BW: So were they, they weren’t necessarily RAF guys you were picking up.
NN: No. No.
BW: They were army POWs as well.
NN: Army. Yeah. Everybody. Oh aye. But I mean they were glad to get back they were. Oh aye. Kissing the ground when they got back. Hallelujah. Aye. It was a great effort that. It was great doing that. Getting the people. Getting them straight back as soon as you can instead of going on boats and trains and everything.
BW: And you also flew sorties to drop food for the Dutch.
NN: The Dutch. Yeah. The Dutch yeah. They were starving they were. Plenty of rough stuff over there.
BW: Could you see much from the height at which you were flying?
NN: Yeah. You could see them there. They were all, all waiting there for the stuff coming down in parachutes. Bale them out.
BW: So the food parcels were in, were on parachutes.
NN: Yeah. Oh yeah. Aye. They were actually, they were starving. Really were. They were glad to get it. That was a really good effort they did. Glad to do that. Aye. Because they had a hard time during the war they did. Oh aye.
BW: And do you recall were you flying quite low over the cities to —
NN: Eh?
BW: Were you dropping the parcels over the streets and buildings?
NN: Yeah.
BW: Or were you aiming for fields on the outside? Where did you do it?
NN: In fields on the outside. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
NN: Getting inland. Get them on the land. Don’t, don’t go in the sea. Get them on the land and they can pick them up. Oh yeah. They must have been welcoming those parcels from the air.
BW: And were there people in the fields that you dropped the food parcels over?
NN: Yeah. Yeah. They were there gathering them up. Yeah. Aye. It must have been great for them. We enjoyed it anyway. Aye.
BW: Make a change from dropping bombs wouldn’t it?
NN: Oh it was. Yeah. Helping people. Aye. They must have been starving there.
BW: Do you know how many trips roughly you had to make?
NN: Pardon?
BW: Do you know how many trips you had to make to do that?
NN: I think it was about seven, I think.
BW: About seven.
NN: Yeah. Yeah. They were. They welcomed us anyway. Some of them were out of sight. You had to chase after them and get them. They got them back. Aye. They were good days they were. Helping. Helping somebody. Instead of dropping bombs drop food.
BW: And so as the war ended what happened then? You said you were demobbed. You wanted to be out straight away.
NN: Yeah.
BW: What happened for that process? For you to be demobbed. What took place? Do you recall?
NN: We had to wait hadn’t we? We couldn’t get demobbed right away.
IN: You had to go to Blackpool didn’t you?
NN: Went to Blackpool. Yeah.
IN: You decided you wanted to keep the greatcoat.
NN: Pardon?
IN: You decided you wanted to keep the greatcoat.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Because it was cold.
NN: Frozen.
IN: I’m doing that.
NN: And it was in Blackpool of all places.
IN: And you had, you went back to your apprenticeship didn’t you?
NN: Yeah. Apprenticeship. Yeah. Engineer.
BW: In the railyards.
NN: In the railyards. Yeah.
BW: And so they’d held your job open had they?
NN: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
BW: And so from Blackpool. You were there presumably a few weeks and then you —
NN: Yeah.
BW: Moved back home to Glasgow.
NN: Yeah.
BW: To be with your family.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And what, what happened after that? You resumed your apprenticeship and —
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you re-join Sunburn Harriers?
NN: Springburn Harriers. Yeah.
BW: Springburn Harriers.
NN: Yeah. Yeah. Went with them again.
IN: You met, you’d met my mother in the air force hadn’t you?
NN: That’s right. Yeah.
IN: And you decided to get married.
BW: When did you meet her?
IN: Was it 103 Squadron?
NN: Pardon?
IN: Was it the 103 Squadron?
NN: 103 Squadron. Yeah.
IN: She was on the telephones wasn’t she?
NN: Yeah. She saw me and I saw her and that was it.
BW: And it, where was it? Was it, was it at a party or a dance or was it just on the base?
NN: Just on the base. Yeah. Yeah. Her father didn’t like me though.
BW: Her father didn’t like you.
NN: Did he? Her father. Her father didn’t like me.
IN: There wasn’t many people she liked.
NN: She did. She did. Her mother did. The grandmother did.
IN: Yeah.
NN: Oh.
IN: Yeah.
NN: The grandmother. The wee Swedish grandmother.
IN: Oh the Swedish one. Yeah.
NN: Oh she was wonderful. She was a wonderful person. She loved me. She, ‘You’re the greatest thing that’s happened here. I’m glad you’ve got here.’
IN: That was the Lonsdale side of the family.
NN: Lonsdale. Yeah.
IN: Yeah.
NN: The grandmother. She was a grand person. She was Swedish. She was lovely. She loved me. She said, ‘You’re great. You’re the one we want.’ Aye.
BW: And when, when did you get married?
NN: When I was —
IN: It was, you still had your uniform.
NN: Yeah.
IN: There’s a picture there.
BW: Oh yeah.
NN: Uncle Ron was it?
IN: 1945 wasn’t it?
NN: End of 1945. Yeah.
BW: So that’s very soon, very soon after you’ve been —
NN: Yeah.
BW: Demobbed.
IN: Demobbed.
NN: Yeah. Aye. Her father didn’t like me. He thought, he thought she should have married one of nature’s gentlemen. What did he think I was? One of the nature’s gentlemen. Aye.
IN: A bit rough and ready at that time though weren’t you?
NN: Pardon?
IN: You were a bit rough and ready [laughs]
NN: Aye. He thought she’d marry one of nature’s gentleman. I couldn’t believe that. I did laugh at that. Some bloody people [laughs] he didn’t, he wouldn’t take to me very much. But the grandmother would. She was lovely. The Swedish grandmother. She thought I was the greatest thing that happened.
BW: And what was your wife’s name?
NN: Enid.
BW: Enid.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And where was she from? She’s got Swedish heritage.
NN: She wasn’t. I mean —
BW: She’s got, her grandmother was Swedish but —
NN: Swedish. They were in Yorkshire.
BW: Right.
IN: The original story is that they was the Clegg’s weren’t they?
NN: Cleggs.
IN: Wasn’t the, think originally the Cleggs that came over. There were the Klings and the Cleggs.
NN: The Klings.
IN: Yeah. That came over from Sweden to Hull on the way to —
NN: Oh.
IN: To America. They stopped at Hull on the way to America. And the husband got ill and died in Hull. And left the three young girls and their mother stranded in Hull. And they sort of had to make their way in life living in Hull. And one of them was the grandmother that he’s talking about.
BW: Right.
IN: And her daughter, which was Bertha married my grandfather who was a Maynard.
NN: Maynard.
IN: Yeah. Became — my mother’s Enid Maynard.
NN: Yeah.
IN: They had three children. Two boys and a girl. And my grandfather set up the Maynard’s fruit and vegetable shops in Hull.
NN: Yeah. Did do. Yeah.
IN: Five fruit and veg shops.
BW: Right.
NN: He didn’t like me though, did he? He didn’t think I was good enough, but I was. I was good enough.
BW: And how long did you continue to work in the rail yards as an engineer?
NN: When I went to, I went to Glasgow didn’t I?
IN: Yeah.
NN: I worked in the railway. And then —
IN: I think you were just finishing you apprenticeship weren’t you?
NN: Yeah.
IN: Probably six months or something.
NN: Yeah.
IN: It wasn’t very long.
NN: No.
IN: And then you went back to Hull and you started working in the fruit and vegetable shops.
NN: Fruit and vegetable. Yeah.
BW: So you, you moved across to Hull to be closer presumably to your wife’s family.
NN: Yeah. Yeah. They didn’t like that did they? Didn’t like the poor bloke.
IN: Because of you and my grandfather were always falling out you decided that you were going to emigrate to Canada. So in 1953 you went to Canada.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Right.
IN: And we followed on.
NN: Yeah.
IN: About three months later. My mother and my sister and myself.
BW: So this is where you’d had some [pause] was it during this time before you moved to Canada you were trying to get in the Olympic running team?
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: And this, this was for the marathon was it?
NN: Yeah. Marathon. Yeah.
IN: You won the Hull Marathon didn’t you?
NN: I did.
IN: The first ever Hull Marathon.
NN: Yeah.
IN: And the second year you ran it again and won it again.
NN: Yeah. And you’d think when I went there I had to go down there and they were there already. Up in the morning.
IN: You had driven to Glasgow to run in the marathon.
NN: Yeah.
IN: The day after the Hull Marathon.
NN: And all these others had been there for weeks and weeks before and I landed the night before and just expected to run. What chance did I have? None.
IN: Well, you came second.
NN: I was leading. I was leading for the first fifteen miles and then [unclear] I faded.
IN: That was, that was a different one. That was the Boston marathon.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: No. The Glasgow one you came second.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Yeah.
NN: Aye. The Boston Marathon I didn’t manage it. Aye. Up at 6 o’clock in the morning. How can you run a mile in that like that?
BW: So you ran the Glasgow Marathon.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And then the day after you ran the Hull one. And at this stage they were trialling for the Olympics. Is that right?
NN: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And you just missed out.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Yeah. They could only afford to take one person.
NN: Yeah.
IN: So they took the person who won.
NN: Yeah, aye that, yeah. I could have beaten him really.
IN: Yeah.
BW: And so when you moved to Canada you also tried for the Olympic team in Canada.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Presumably you must have been a naturalised Canadian.
NN: Yeah. No. I wasn’t.
BW: Or got Canadian citizenship. Did you not?
NN: I wasn’t.
BW: No.
IN: You’d only been there four years.
NN: I wasn’t there for enough.
IN: No. You had to be there five years.
NN: Five years. Yeah.
IN: To get into the Canadian system.
NN: So I missed out again.
BW: And did you come back after four years in Canada?
IN: No.
BW: Or did you stay on?
NN: No. I went back.
IN: Lost, well he was working for Avro Aircraft Corporation.
NN: Yeah.
IN: Designing. Well, on the design team for the Avro Arrow and the Americans sort of pulled out of the scheme that they had for this plane and they closed the plant down. So he came back here to work at English Electric as it was then.
NN: English Electric. Worked there.
IN: And started working on the TSR2 and the Lightning.
NN: TSR2.
BW: So were you on the design teams for those aircraft?
NN: Yeah. Oh aye. I was good I was. I knew my stuff. A lot of them didn’t like me though.
IN: Went to Vickers Armstrong working on the Polaris submarine. And to Spadeadam on the Woomera rocket engines and the Blue Streak. And then the Isle of Wight working on the Hovercraft.
NN: Yeah. Isle of Wight. Yeah. I was there. I liked it down there.
BW: So it must have been a bit of a shock and a disappointment for you when they cancelled TSR2.
NN: Oh yeah.
BW: And having been, having been on the design team.
NN: Yeah.
BW: How did that, how did that feel to see it fly though?
NN: Yeah. Fly.
IN: I saw it fly once.
BW: Did you?
NN: It was a good plane.
IN: It went over the school where I was in St [unclear]
NN: It was a good plane alright.
IN: Tree top bomber.
NN: Eh?
IN: A tree top bomber.
NN: Yeah. They could have bought it.
IN: That was, I think it was Harold Wilson’s government that decided they didn’t want to spend any more money on it.
NN: Yeah.
BW: And you worked on the Lightning as well.
NN: Yeah. The Lightning. Yeah.
BW: What did you think of that?
NN: That was a good plane really. I liked it.
IN: That was the only one that can still go straight up in the atmosphere and come back down in that atmosphere.
NN: The Lightning. Aye. That was the one wasn’t it?
IN: Yeah.
BW: And so when, when you look back now at what you were tasked with doing in Bomber Command how does that make you feel? Or what do you think of the coverage that’s been given to bomber crew more recently?
NN: What?
BW: What do you think of the coverage or the attention that’s been given to bomber crew more recently.
NN: Not much.
IN: Well they were rejected for a long time weren’t they?
NN: Pardon?
IN: They were rejected for a long time weren’t they?
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Because of Dresden. You know they looked at us as something not to talk about.
NN: Yeah they didn’t, didn’t like to talk about it.
IN: But they’ve made that Memorial now haven’t they?
NN: Yeah.
IN: In Lincoln.
NN: In Lincoln. Yeah. Went down to see that.
IN: Yeah.
BW: What did you think of that when you saw it unveiled?
NN: Very good. Done something at last.
BW: Done something at last.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you get to see the Hyde Park Memorial? The one that was unveiled in 2012.
NN: No.
IN: Not been to London for a long time.
BW: No.
NN: No. I didn’t see it.
IN: No. I heard about it.
NN: What?
IN: I heard about it but I don’t think you remember it.
NN: Yeah.
BW: So is it good that the bomber crew are being remembered now?
NN: Yeah.
BW: In Lincolnshire?
NN: Yes. Time too. They did a lot of good they did. Aye. Aye. We lost a lot of good lads we did. I don’t know why I’m still here. Why me?
IN: It shortened the war though didn’t it?
NN: I know it did. Why did I survive?
BW: I think it was just —
NN: Somebody was looking after me.
IN: I think the British government were thinking that they might have to go to Canada. They were looking like they might lose it rather than win it. I think Bomber Harris at least.
NN: Bomber Harris.
IN: Changed the way the war went. Even though he was over the top sometimes. He made the difference.
BW: Do you think the same Norrey? Do you think Bomber Harris changed the war? The course of the war.
NN: I don’t think so. No.
BW: No.
IN: What? Bomber Harris.
NN: Oh yeah.
IN: Bomber Harris changed it didn’t he?
NN: Oh yes. He was all right. Old Bomber. Old Bomber Harris. We loved him. Everybody loved him.
BW: I believe he visited 103 Squadron at one point.
NN: Yeah.
BW: Did you get to meet him? Did you get to see him or not?
NN: No.
BW: No.
NN: No.
BW: But you just knew of his reputation.
NN: Yeah. He would have wanted to see me [laughs]
BW: Like a royal visit.
NN: I might have said something wrong. Might have told them where they went wrong.
BW: Good. Well, I don’t, I don’t have any further questions for you. Are there any other incidents or recollections you want to add?
IN: He’s finding it hard to remember things these days.
NN: Pardon?
IN: You’re finding it hard to remember things these days.
NN: Yeah. It is a bit. Yeah.
BW: Do you think you’ll get to see the Memorial again when the Centre is open?
NN: Yeah.
BW: Do you think you’ll see the Bomber Command Memorial when the Centre is open again?
IN: I can take him down there. Yeah.
NN: Yeah. Where’s this?
BW: At Lincoln.
IN: Lincoln.
NN: Lincoln.
IN: On top of the hill.
NN: Lincolnshire. Yeah. Aye. Lincolnshire. Good old Lincolnshire. The 103.
BW: Ok. That’s, that’s everything I think. So, on behalf of the Bomber Command Centre thank you very much Norman Neilson for your time.
NN: Yeah.
BW: It’s been a pleasure to talk to you.
NN: Yeah. They were a good lot.
BW: Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Norman Neilson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANeilsonN160422, PNeilsonNS1604
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:21:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Neilson was an apprentice engineer at St Rollox Locomotive Works when he volunteered. He had originally wanted to join the Navy but joined the RAF because the only way he could be released from his position was to volunteer for aircrew. His brother had been killed in a submarine and so he kept the fact that he had joined up a secret from his mother. Norman joined 103 Squadron and found himself threatened twice with court martial. He stressed that he had a huge responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew. After the war Norman completed his apprenticeship and went on to join the design teams working on such aircraft as the Lightning, TSR2, and Arrow. He also worked on the Polaris submarine and the Blue Streak rocket and then the Hovercraft on the Isle of Wight.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Isle of Wight
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dresden
England--Hampshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945-02
103 Squadron
582 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
flight engineer
Lancaster
memorial
military discipline
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Little Staughton
submarine
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1360/22528/PRobertsM2001.1.jpg
8807da74335bcda436a16157b4b0b803
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1360/22528/ARobertsM200219.1.mp3
4c037fe59803bd6d7d0272b3b5beb8d7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Roberts, Maurice
M Roberts
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Maurice Roberts (1920 - 2020, 1095576 Royal Air Force), who flew with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Roberts, M-2
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview with Maurice Roberts whose service number is 1095576, who was a sergeant pilot and later a pilot officer during the Second World War with, he did his operational tour with 51 Squadron. The interview is being conducted by me, Harry Bartlett on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre at Mr Robert’s home address on Wednesday the 19th of February and the time now is 11:15. Mr Roberts, or can I call you Maurice?
MR: Yeah. Maurice.
HB: Thanks ever so much for agreeing to this interview. It’s, it’s a pleasure to be here to do this with you. We’ve had a bit of a chat before the interview so I’ve got a fair idea and I’ve obviously got your logbook but before we get to the actual war can you just, would you mind just telling us just a bit about yourself Maurice?
MR: Yeah.
HB: Where were you born?
MR: I was born in Manchester actually. And when I was twenty years of age I joined the RAF. That was in 1940.
HB: Yeah.
MR: When I joined the RAF. I never went back to Manchester because I met my, we used to, I was flying at which is now an industrial estate, was a flying field at Braunstone and I was flying Tiger Moths there. Met my wife and we got married in ’45 after I finished my tour and I, you know I’d known her for many years, but I decided that I wouldn’t marry. We wouldn’t get married until I finished my tour. So we married in ’45. So we’ve been married seventy five years now.
HB: Wow.
MR: And I went to South Africa. After I, after I’d met her and we became friends I went to South Africa and did my EFTS and SFTS there.
HB: Can I, can I just stop there Maurice?
MR: Yeah.
HB: When you, when you were in Manchester.
MR: Yes.
HB: Obviously you, obviously you were part of a family.
MR: Yes.
HB: What, how big a family did you come from?
MR: Well, there were five children. I was the latest one out of the five. They’re all dead now. And my eldest sister who was the first was twenty years older than me.
HB: Wow.
MR: And I have a niece now who’s over ninety, still living in Manchester. I’m in touch with her by telephone and I’ve been to see her, and we get on well together. We have a big family out there.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But I’ve no family here in Leicester.
HB: Yeah. What about schooling Maurice?
MR: Well, I went to Manchester Central High School, a grammar school and I was, I was a scholarship boy.
HB: Right.
HB: I was a bit out of my depth really socially because they were all fee paying members of this school and I was a scholarship boy.
HB: Right.
HB: And there was two of us actually who’d got to school, eleven plus. And, I presume I did very well in the eleven plus and I went to this school. But I didn’t go to university. I left at fifteen and got a job and started work really.
HB: What, what did you do for a job before the war then Maurice?
MR: Well, before the war I was, I was in, I worked for a firm called Salford Electrical Instruments. They were part of GEC.
HB: Right.
MR: It was a reserved occupation, but because I volunteered for aircrew I could get out of this, this you know being a reserved occupation. So I, and I left. Left the firm.
HB: So, yeah what was your process then for, because obviously you’re in a reserved occupation and you’ve decided you want to do your bit, or you want to join the Air Force, I presume? So what was your process for joining?
MR: Process? Well, I —
HB: How did you come to join?
MR: Well, I just wanted to, you know. Young men did.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I went to the Recruiting Office and said I wanted to join. I wanted to go into aircrew and they accepted me.
HB: Right. Right.
MR: Twenty years old and I was only a clerk actually in this firm of Salford Electrical Instruments.
HB: So, so you’ve gone down and you’ve joined the RAF.
MR: Yes.
HB: Right. And you’ve, you’ve got to do some training somewhere.
MR: Right. And my first training was at Babbacombe. Well, I joined up. Seven days I spent at Warrington.
HB: Right.
MR: Where you got a uniform and all that but what they call Initial Training Wing, ITW, I went to Babbacombe near, near Bournemouth.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I was about, there about six weeks, I think.
HB: Is that, was that you all square bashing?
MR: That’s right.
HB: And marching and all that sort of thing.
MR: Yeah, and getting our, yes there was no flying. It was just —
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: It was just as you say square bashing.
HB: Yeah. And then you went from Babbacombe. Did you do an assessment for flying or —
MR: No. I, no I had a medical exam.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I had an interview by several men. About five I think. I was interviewed for aircrew and they asked me questions like, ‘What is seventeen multiplied by thirteen?’ And I had to think about it in my head, what the, what the answer was, you know. Mentally.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And then they found, obviously they found out I was pretty, my mental ability was quite good and they, I, I passed the exam.
HB: Right.
MR: I had a medical exam apart from that. That was sort of to see that you were quick mentally I suppose.
HB: Yeah. So, so where, where did you, where did you progress from there after your interview? You’ve obviously been accepted for aircrew training.
MR: Yeah.
HB: At what stage did it become apparent you were going to be training as a pilot?
MR: Well [pause] well, at ITW. They were all potential pilots at ITW. Had the little flashes in your beret.
HB: Right.
MR: A little, little white flash in your beret so that you were, you were potential aircrew people.
HB: Right. And you went from the initial training wing, the ITW —
MR: Yes. I went to Canada first of all. To Canada.
HB: How did you get to Canada?
MR: Well, we went by ship.
HB: Wow, from, from —
MR: From, well the Gourock in Scotland. Gourock, I think.
HB: Right. Right. So you go off to Canada.
MR: Yeah. And then from Canada down to Florida.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I had some training with a civilian because they weren’t at war then. The Americans weren’t. And I had, and I spent some time flying with the Americans. Didn’t go very well though and we came back via Canada. Had to go back to Canada and then I came back to this country.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I had this Braunstone Aerodrome where I met my wife. My potential wife.
HB: Yeah. So when, when, when you first went to Canada did you go to one of the flying schools there?
MR: No.
HB: Before you went to Florida.
MR: No, no no. I went to just outside of Toronto.
HB: So you went to Toronto first.
MR: Yes. And then, and then from there to America.
HB: So just within a matter of weeks.
HB: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: You were off down to America. Yeah.
MR: And they were all civilian. Civilian pilots.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The instructors were civilians. And nobody was in, it was an American Air Force base but they were civilians who were, who were instructing you to fly.
HB: Right. What sort of aircraft were you flying Maurice?
MR: Well, the PT17s they were. They were like a Tiger Moth. Overgrown Tiger Moths they were.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So you were down there learning your flying skills.
MR: Yes.
HB: And you said it didn’t go all that well.
MR: Well, they used to curse and swear and things like that, you know. So some of us went, went, some, I have a friend who was an air commodore. He died only last year actually. Lived in Glenfield, and we used to play golf together and he, he was there too and he went on the Empire training. He went to Canada to train. He went from Canada to Florida. Then from Florida went back to Canada and was trained in Canada flying. Real, real flying in Canada where I went, I came home and went to South Africa.
HB: Yeah. So, so when you did your basic flying training in America.
MR: Yes.
HB: Whereabouts in America was that?
MR: In Lakeland. A place called Lakeland in Florida.
HB: In Florida.
MR: Lakeland. Yeah.
HB: Right. And that was all in civilian clothes.
MR: They were. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MR: They hadn’t gone to war then.
HB: Yeah. And then you went back to Canada. Did you do any flying training in Canada?
MR: No. No. I didn’t. No.
HB: None at all.
MR: No. No. I went to a place called Moncton.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Under canvas.
HB: Oh blimey.
MR: Below, under forty degrees. Ten degree temperatures. Terrible. And then I came back to England and I did some more flying in, as I say Braunstone Aerodrome which is now an industrial estate. Braunstone isn’t, is no longer an aerodrome. But in 19 — I forget what year it was I met my wife in a tea dance.
HB: Right. I’m just curious. When you went [coughs] you went to Moncton and Trenton.
MR: Yeah.
HB: From, well according to your book —
MR: Well, Trenton —
HB: You were only there [pause] you were only there for two months.
MR: I forget what Trenton was really.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The name sounds familiar but it’s a long time ago. I don’t know why I was at, I remember Moncton but Trenton I don’t.
HB: In, in your, in your logbook it says something like if I’m looking at this right Riccall. R I C C A L L.
MR: R I C P?
HB: Ah. Could be P. Yes. Could be P.
MR: I don’t know.
HB: And that’s, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just, it just sort of, just for two months.
MR: Yeah.
BW: There. And then you came back and you went to, you went to Bournemouth.
MR: Yeah. That wasn’t near Bournemouth.
HB: Right. Because so when you first came back. Is that when you went to Braunstone?
MR: Yeah. Probably. You know, I can’t remember really very well.
HB: No. No. That’s fine.
MR: It’s a long time ago. It’s seventy years ago.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I remember being at Braunstone Aerodrome and meeting my wife.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And then from there we went to [pause] Where did we go? I went to South Africa. To Clairwood where we were under canvas there. We had about three months there doing nothing. Not doing anything really. Then went to Potchefstroom for EFTS. From Potchefstroom to Vereeniging for SFTS. And I got my wings when I, at Vereeniging.
HB: What was, what was the SFTS?
MR: SFPS?
HB: Yeah. SFP?
MR: In what context was that?
HB: Sorry. Oh sorry. I thought that was just initials. I do apologise. I thought that was just some initials you’ve given me and I hadn’t heard them before. Yeah. I’ve got Clairwood, Lyttelton, Potchefstroom.
MR: Vereeniging.
HB: Vereeniging.
MR: Then I came home.
HB: Yeah. Came back via Cape Town.
MR: Came back with my wings.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Got my wings there. Came back. Then I went on to, well, we went to Airspeed, to Chipping Norton flying Airspeed Oxfords.
HB: Right.
MR: Twin engine aircraft. And Wellingtons. And later on Wellingtons. Then Lossiemouth four engine aircraft. From Lossiemouth I went to the squadron when I picked up my crew. And then went to Lossiemouth trained up there on four engine aircraft, on Halifaxes. Then I was posted to a squadron. 51 Squadron.
HB: So your crew formed up at the Operational —
MR: No, before.
HB: Conversion Unit.
MR: Before I went to Lossiemouth.
HB: Right.
MR: I, I, you formed a crew. You went into a room with navigators and gunners and pilots all in this room and you chatted to people and eventually you got a navigator and a couple of gunners and a bomb aimer.
HB: Right.
MR: And then you went up to Lossiemouth and we all trained together on these, in Lossiemouth on these four engine, four engine Halifaxes.
HB: Yeah. So, so the crew that you ended up doing your tour with was that same crew that you formed up with?
MR: Well, apart from one young chap who came. He was, now what was he now? A flight engineer. That was it. And he was only about eighteen and we were only twenty, in early twenties but he was eighteen but somehow he seemed much younger. And he put me, on the Halifaxes, the first Halifaxes you had to go back and change the engines. You had four, four, four fuel tanks, you know in your wings and when one was empty it had to be changed to a full one on your trip. And this chap had to go and you used to say, ‘Right,’ Well, I told him to go back and change. Well, we’re on our way back from a raid and he put me on empty tanks and all engines cut out. We dived down. And he was too nervous. Ever so nervous this chap was. So, I said to him, he went back and I said, ‘This chap is no good. This flight engineer.’ And he went back to training school, this lad. But other than that I had the same crew.
HB: Right.
MR: Other than that one.
HB: Yeah.
HB: I got another flight engineer.
HB: So you went to the Conversion Unit and then you were posted to —
MR: 51 Squadron in Snaith, South Yorkshire.
HB: Yeah. I just had a quick look in your logbook and the, we are starting in —
MR: Well, I go. The first trip was I went with another crew as a pilot to see what it was like on a trip to Germany. That was the very first thing. I went with another crew to see. The very first thing and then I came back and then I flew an aircraft with my own crew.
HB: So I’ve got, I’ve got you down as 25th of October 1944 and that was with a Flight Lieutenant Ripper.
MR: Right.
HB: And you went that, well it’s in black, it’s in black ink so it looks like a daytime thing to Essen.
MR: Yeah. Well, I think —
HB: And you were second pilot as you say.
MR: Yeah. That was it. Well, I went —
HB: Yeah.
MR: Just to see what it was like, you know.
HB: Yeah.
HB: It was part of the training really.
HB: Yeah. Because, because I was interested in this. It’s one thing and again it’s something I’ve not seen before. On the 30th of October you’ve got yourself as the pilot. And then where it says second pilot or passenger you’ve got six people in there.
MR: Well, the bomb aimer used to act as second pilot. The bomb aimer.
HB: Yeah.
MR: He was a Canadian actually. And he acted, when you took off he acted as second pilot when you took off.
HB: Yeah.
MR: When you opened, when you open the four throttles he put his hand behind them to hold them firm.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Not to slide back when you took off. But —
HB: Because that was —
MR: But he wasn’t a second pilot. He was a bomb aimer. That was his job was bomb aimer.
HB: Because that was an operation.
MR: That was an operation.
HB: To Cologne. And it just says landed away.
MR: Landed away.
HB: Yeah. It says landed away.
MR: One, there was one thing where a lot of fog was on when we came back and we landed at Manston where they had a, they had three in the country, great long, a hundred, a hundred yards wide flare path. Yeah. You know, where you took off on the, on the flare path.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And a hundred yards wide, it was great and about a mile long and they had, when you had the fog they had a long on the edge of each side of the flare path. They had burners with the heat so the fog would rise you know with the heat.
HB: Right. Yeah.
MR: And that’s when you couldn’t land at your own airport.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And there was one time when I landed at Manston which was south of, I forget where it was. In Kent somewhere, I think.
HB: Yeah.
MR: At Manston. They had three around the coast for people coming back where you couldn’t land on, or if the aircraft was damaged so badly you could, you could land on this thing because it was so, it was so big. The flare path was so big. It was a hundred yards wide.
HB: Because you got I mean you’ve, you are really in to, you know November.
MR: Yeah.
HB: 1944. You’re really into a lot of operations there.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And on the 2nd of December you, you did an operation to Hagen.
MR: Yes.
HB: And all you’ve got in your logbook is mid-upper injured.
MR: Well, we got back from a raid and we’d been, we’d been hit several times but this chap was a mid-upper gunner sitting in the thing, and the hydraulic behind exploded because —
HB: Right.
MR: It had been hit you see. It exploded. This, the hydraulic thing. Cylinders of hydraulics.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Where the crew sat on your landing because we all left our stations and sat in the body of the aircraft. The crew did when we landed. And it blew the top of his head off.
HB: Oh blimey.
MR: The mid-upper gunner. And he never came, he went to, he was in hospital for twelve months but he survived. They put a plate in his head and he lived ‘til he was about seventy. I met him again two or three times after the war in 51 Squadron reunions. Yeah.
HB: What, can you remember what his name was?
[pause]
MR: He was from Manchester actually.
HB: Oh right.
MR: No. I can’t. I can’t think of his name now.
HB: No. I understand. So, and yeah and then you, as I say you really did do an awful lot of operations then. You’re going through what six, seven, eight. And you’ve got January the 2nd 1945. You’re going to Ludwigshafen.
MR: Ludwigshafen. Yeah.
HB: And you’ve got in your plane you’ve got Sergeant Brown, Warrant Officer Stone, Flight Sergeant Swan, Sergeant Haywood, Sergeant Tovey and Sergeant Smith.
MR: Say them. The last three. Sergeant —
HB: The last three. Sergeant Haywood.
MR: Yes.
HB: Sergeant Tovey.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And Sergeant Smith.
MR: Well, Smith was the rear gunner. The mid-upper gunner must have been Haywood, I think.
HB: He’s the one that replaced the guy who was injured.
MR: No. The flight engineer was replaced. Not a gunner. A flight engineer.
HB: Right.
MR: Oh yes. Sorry.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You’re quite right.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: He replaced the gunner. Yeah.
HB: So I’m, you see that, that one gives the list of the names. And then from then on again we’re back to just saying crew. So —
MR: Right.
HB: So would that have been your crew then for the next —
MR: Yeah.
HB: Set of operations.
MR: That would be. Yes. Yes.
HB: Right.
HB: That would be until the end of my tour. Yes.
HB: Right. Sorry about this. The pages are a little bit on the sticky side.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And you get through to February and you’ve, you’ve again you’ve landed away after you’ve done operation in March to Chemnitz [coughs] excuse me.
MR: There’s one —
HB: In your crew here you’ve got a Flight Sergeant Brewitt.
MR: Who?
HB: Brewitt. Brewiss.
MR: He was the, must have been the flight engineer I think.
HB: Right. Right. But, but as I say you then you really do a lot of operations in a very short space of time.
MR: Yeah. Well, there was one time when we came back from a raid, had a meal and went off again.
HB: Blimey.
MR: And we slept for, the rear gunner slept for thirty six hours after we got back. And they gave me wakey wakey pills when we, yeah we went off again. We did two trips.
HB: Blimey. So —
MR: A meal in between that’s all.
HB: Tell me about the wakey wakey pills then.
MR: Well, every time you went. Before a raid you had a good meal. Egg and bacon and chips or something like that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: We had good food. I know that the country as a whole didn’t do very well for food but they fed us very well and before we walked in they always gave us a wakey wakey. I think they were benecon or I forget the name. Benedrine. But the wakey wakey pills were so when you went on a trip you were wide awake you know.
HB: Yeah.
HB: They kept you going. The wakey wakey pills we called them. And as you went in for your meal before the trip there was a girl there used to give you these two tablets.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And we called them wakey wakey pills.
HB: Did you always take them Maurice?
MR: Oh yes. You had to.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You had to have them. Keep you, I mean one time I went to Chemnitz which was near Dresden. It was an eight hour trip.
HB: Yes. Yes. A long trip that one. Eight hours thirty five.
MR: Yeah. Eight hours.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And the funny thing is coming back from one of those trips we went between Ludwigshafen and Mannheim and Ludwigshafen was full of searchlights and Mannheim was full of searchlights but if you went in between them going to Chemnitz the searchlights couldn’t catch you. On the way back I was, my navigator was, my navigator was a good one and we were on track in between these two. But on the left hand side I saw a bomber, another bomber, this was in the dark but I just saw him and he was going over Mannheim and all of the searchlights swung through and caught him. This chap.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And you couldn’t get out of this. There were about thirty or forty searchlights and they were harnessed to the ack ack and we, they used to have then what they called flaming onions. Not your normal ack ack gun. These flaming onions were like five things that rose up briefly and they were harnessed to the, the searchlights. But this chap, I saw these bombs explode on his height about thirty yards behind him and I saw another about fifteen yards and a third lot caught him and the aircraft was just blown sky high. And when, everyone inside it. Seven. There were seven, they were off track. And you were talking about the Germans. You know, they got their technical, Dresden and that. These the technical thing. They were just as good as we were in their technical ability.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The Germans were.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And they didn’t, if they could, they got the height speed and direction of the aircraft from the searchlights attached to the end, and the bombs you know the flaming onions caught you, you know they were sent up to catch you. And I was caught in searchlights over one target but fortunately the, after the bombs went there was some cloud and I went over the cloud and the searchlight lost me. I was fortunate to get away.
HB: Yeah. So in, as I say you flew an awful lot of operations in a relatively tight sort of time.
MR: Yeah.
HB: What, what, what would you think when you, when you think back, what do you think was your worst, your worst operation?
MR: Well, the one that really stuck in my mind I was, I had several bad ones but the one that really stuck in my mind I got back to the base, to Snaith in Yorkshire after a raid, and they said we’re, the fog, ‘You are diverted to Lincolnshire.’ To RAF so and so. I said to the navigator, ‘Give me course for this air base.’ And there was a bit of silence. Then he said, ‘I haven’t got the maps for it.’ So, oh dear. We’re in trouble now. So I thought, well we, I went due east towards Lincolnshire from Yorkshire and towards the North Sea and when I felt, and it was all black down below you know with the blackout and I thought now what’s going to happen now? I called up, ‘Hello Darkie. Hello Darkie.’ And somebody answered down below but that didn’t help me [laughs] And I thought now what am I going to do? Am I going to get the crew to bale out and then I’ll bale out and I’ll set the aircraft for the North Sea and when all the fuel runs out it’ll drop out in the North Sea. And as I, as I was thinking this I was, you know I was in a bit of a state really and I saw a light. One light. So I went, I flew towards this one light and as I got near it there was three lights and what it was I don’t know if you know but during the war all the aircraft, the aerodromes they had hooded, they were all hooded so you had to be in the right position to see the lights.
HB: Yeah.
MR: If you came the other way it was black because they were, there were all these lights around the aerodrome were hooded, hooded lights. And anyway, when I got to this one light I was telling you about I saw two others, and what it was it was a ring of light around the aerodrome. They put their lights on for me, this aerodrome. It wasn’t the one I was supposed to be [laughs] but it was one near there. So I followed the lights around the aerodrome and they took me down to the flare path and I landed and we were okay.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But it was, it was a terrible, because you’re in a situation where you don’t know what to, you don’t know what to do really. I mean the obvious thing was to bale out and send the aircraft in the North Sea.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But it was a bit drastic. But I happened to see this one light and having seen this one light I saw the others and then I saw the, the circle of lights around the aerodrome and they took me onto the flare path.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And we landed.
HB: So you obviously, you obviously as you say you’d had a bit of a rough going over on that one and, and —
MR: Well, you know I had one trip when I had a two thousand bomb wouldn’t, wouldn’t release in the body, or the incendiary and the wheel went off but this this two thousand pound bomb wouldn’t go. So I was a bit worried about it because I tried to shake it off over the North Sea coming back but it wouldn’t go. So I had to land with it. And I thought now landing it might set it off. I told them when I, but fortunately we had a very good, good, in fact the crew said it’s the best landing I’d ever done [laughs]
HB: I think there was an incentive there.
MR: A two thousand pound bomb on board on landing. It didn’t go off.
HB: So so you’d got that bomb hung up and you said you tried to shake it off.
HB: Yeah.
HB: How did, how would you have done that Maurice?
MR: Well, just shake the aircraft. You know. With the wheel. Just shake it. You know, shake the aircraft and let it go. But it didn’t go.
HB: So whose job was it to take the bomb off?
MR: The armoury when we got back. The armoury took it off. The ground staff. Armourers.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And it, it must have got tied up somehow. I don’t know. I don’t. I didn’t ask.
HB: I’ll tell you one of the things you mentioned earlier on Maurice was you said about coming in to land.
MR: Yes.
HB: When the crew gathered in —
MR: In the centre of the aircraft.
HB: In the centre of the aircraft.
MR: Yes.
HB: Would that be where the main spar went through on the Halifax?
MR: Well, the main spar was just behind the pilot.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And the two pilot’s seats. Then, then the spar, the main spar. Then there was a seat on, a seat for three or four on this side and a seat for three or four on that side. And then the door to get out of it was a bit farther down and a chemical toilet somewhere.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You know.
HB: So, so obviously I’m presuming that at some stage you’re fully in position in the aircraft. Everybody is in the right place.
MR: Yeah. Yes.
HB: And at some stage you’ve got to decide that it’s safe for the rear gunner and the mid-upper gunner to leave their positions. When would you —
MR: We were home. We’re home now. We’re going around the, around the perimeter.
HB: So it’s, so it’s as you were doing your circuit to land that you would do that. Yeah.
MR: Something like that, yeah. I’d tell them, alright we’ll be landing in about ten minutes or five minutes or something like that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Will you, now you can go. I’d instruct the crew to go and sit down.
HB: Right.
MR: As we landed. Yeah.
HB: And that was a safety thing I presume.
MR: Well, it was a thing we had to do. We were told that’s what and, yes.
HB: Yeah. Yeah, so —
MR: You wouldn’t want the rear gunner sitting in the rear, when you landed, would you?
HB: No. No. No. So you, you’re doing your operations. You’re based out at Snaith.
MR: Yeah.
HB: In Yorkshire.
MR: Yeah.
HB: Because you weren’t far from Goole.
MR: Well, Goole had got the lake. That was, Goole was the, that was a big lake there near Goole and that was a very good spot to follow you to get back to.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. As a obviously as a sighting thing.
MR: Yes.
HB: Yeah. So, what, I mean you’d met your wife or your future wife some time ago so, what was your social life like when you were on, on at Snaith? Did you have much a social life?
MR: No. We had, we had what they called a stand down, and you had to leave. You could, when you had a stand down you could leave the aerodrome until midnight.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And you would probably get a lorry or something to take you in to Pontefract which was nearest big town. We used to go and I think we had two. Two stand downs in my nine months I was operating. Only two. Other than those two we were stuck in and when there was a raid on, because my wife used to, she was in Maidstone in Kent. She used to ring up actually. She wasn’t my wife then but she used to ring. Yes, was she? I don’t know. Anyway. She used to ring up and to see if I was alright you know. And if, if she couldn’t get through she knew there was a raid on because when there was a raid on they, they stopped all the communication with the outside world. The station did.
HB: Right.
MR: The bomber station. And then she’d ring the next day and when we’d, to see if I was alright. If I’d got back alright. You know.
HB: So, it was quite a bit of a long distance relationship then.
MR: Oh, yeah. Well in —
HB: Yeah.
MR: Mind you she was in the ATS for two years.
HB: Yeah.
MR: She was called up actually. She had a choice of either munitions or the ATS because the WAAF and the WRNS were full and so she only had the ATS to go in.
HB: Right.
MR: So she went in the ATS.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Rather than go in munitions. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So you, so you’re coming towards the end of your tour.
MR: Yes.
HB: We know you’d lost a flight engineer.
MR: Yes.
HB: Which is probably understandable from what you’ve described. You’ve lost a mid-upper gunner.
MR: Yes.
HB: So the bulk of the crew were still there towards the end of your tour.
MR: Oh yes.
HB: So how, how close had you become by then?
MR: Well, fairly close but then of course like many things in the RAF you, I go to 10 Squadron on my own and I pick up another crew.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Of four.
HB: Yeah.
HB: Different people, you know. And the RAF is like that. You don’t, it’s not like the Army where you’re with them all the time and you’ve lost them. They’ve gone. Although strangely enough I went out to, I think it was India. I met my navigator. He’d been posted to a place in, in India too as a navigator. Teaching you know. Something like that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Yeah.
HB: So that was, that was obviously that was the follow on question Maurice.
MR: Yes.
HB: Was did you manage to keep in contact with all of them?
MR: Well, after the war the navigator was a member of the 51 Squadron Association.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I and I joined it too so we met there two or three times with our wives. We came to dances and all that but now of course when, I three or four years ago I resigned from it because all the people were new. I didn’t know. They were all young people.
HB: Yeah.
MR: All the, all the old people that started this Association in 1944, this 51 Squadron Association you know for ex-people and they were all wartime people and we used to chat and all that. But now, later on, they’d all, they’d all died and — [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
HB: There was no point so I resigned from it.
HB: Yeah. It’s sad. So, so you’ve had your contact with your navigator. You’ve just mentioned there you then moved from 51 Squadron to 10 Squadron.
MR: Yes.
HB: But before you actually went there and this intrigues me because again it’s something I’ve not seen before. In May 1945 you flew two, four, six, eight, ten. You flew twelve operations in May from the 13th to the 21st and all it says is bomb disposal.
MR: Yes. Well, what happened we used, we went out and dropped bombs, the bombs that we had in the North Sea. The war had finished so we spent a lot of time carrying bombs out to the North Sea and dropping them in the water. In the North Sea. Bombs that they didn’t want.
HB: Right. And that was, was that just from where you were or did you have to go and sort of pick them up?
MR: No. Driffield or somewhere like that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: I was posted to, I think it was Driffield.
HB: Yeah. And then as I say you moved, you moved across to 10 squadron at Melbourne in Yorkshire.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And you were still, you were then flying. You changed in the June ’45.
MR: Yeah.
HB: To the Dakota.
MR: Yeah.
HB: Did you have, did you have to do a conversion course?
MR: No. I—
HB: Or was it just a case —
MR: Well, I went down to Witney. No. I didn’t have a conversion course. Only the fact that this itself was a conversion course flying these Dakotas. We just got in the aircraft and flew them. Twin engines aircraft. They were ever so easy to fly and out of the four engine bombers they were very easy, the Dakotas were to fly. Twin engine little, they weren’t very powerful but they were a very, very good aircraft and the brakes were much better. Brakes, than on the old four engine bombers.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: And we were, we were flying paratroops, and towing gliders. We were training, we were all training, both the paratroopers and we were training for going out to the Far East, you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that to me before we started the interview about going out to the Far East because you know it’s, we’ve got to September.
MR: Well, the war finished I think very soon after.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The Far East war.
HB: Yeah. But you did actually get out to —
MR: I went out there because, we went there because it was all laid on to help the 14th Army but they’d driven the Japs out and we spent most of our time, well first of all we carrying troops back home to Karachi where they we were picked home and taken home on demob. Then we, then we all went to [unclear] where we dropped rice. Free drops. We dived down. They made a dropping zone with the aircraft and we dived down on a free drop. Couldn’t put them in parachutes because they might go into the ravines you see. So we had to, down to about fifty feet. The crew threw the half-filled bags of rice out of the aircraft then we, when they’d gone we had to climb. I had to climb like mad to avoid the peaks around. And we lost three aircraft actually the squadron did on that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Because, you know it could be a bit dangerous really.
HB: So you went down to how, how low?
MR: To where?
HB: How low were you when you were dropping them? Fifty feet?
MR: Yeah. Well, they had, the crew had to drop them on a DZ. Dropping zone.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: Throw them out. Yeah. Throw them out because we couldn’t, they couldn’t go in parachutes because there was ravines, deep ravines and they’d never get them.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: So we had what we called a free drop. We had to dive down, the crew threw out the bags of rice and then we’d, when they’d thrown them all out we’d climb like mad to avoid, and go back.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Turn around and climb. But you couldn’t, couldn’t turn around because of the peaks on either side. We had to go over the top and turn. They were sixteen thousand feet high these peaks.
HB: Yeah.
MR: In the Himalayas.
HB: And as a pilot was it, was it a difficult flying experience?
MR: Well, that was but that was only six weeks dropping that rice. But other than that it was quite an easy job. It was just taking troops back to, well, we picked them up from the east, Madras and at an aerodrome called Arkonham. Flew across to Poona and then took them up to Karachi in the north and they were picked up in Karachi by some other aircraft and taken home.
HB: Yeah. And you, and you were doing that all the way through until you ended up in Burma.
MR: Well, yes and when I got back. When we finished in Burma I went back to Poona [pause] and what happened then? Oh, I was on a troop ship. My demob came up fairly soon but they, I had to fly an aircraft back. A lease lend. On a lease lend the Americans in Munich. So, a little twin, a lovely little aircraft. They were used as like taxies for the important people in India and that you know. They didn’t, they didn’t go by rail and that. These marshals and generals and people like that. So they had these aircraft the Americans supplied. Then they had to go back to the Americans after the war in Munich. And I flew an aircraft across India, across the Indian Ocean, up the Persian Gulf and then across, across the Med and across to Marseilles and then to Paris. Then Paris to London to Munich. And I got in there, I think I’ve got it somewhere, one Dakota one aircraft, you know signed for by an American staff sergeant. One aircraft delivered.
HB: So, then that would have been, that would have been May 1946.
MR: Yes.
HB: Was that the Beechcraft?
MR: That’s right. Beech.
HB: It was a Beechcraft.
MR: I can remember the aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
MR: It was a Beechcraft.
HB: Yeah.
MR: A little twin engine, twin engine Beechcraft. A lovely aircraft.
HB: I can just, just about read it. It’s the one, it’s the last page.
MR: All electric. The undercarriage, you just put a switch up and the undercarriage came up. You didn’t have to put a lever down or anything like you did in the old Halifaxes.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You just switched up. Knocked this switch up and the undercarriage came up.
HB: Yeah. Because it, because it’s on this page here and it’s the only page you’ve done in pencil and it’s just starting to fade a little bit.
MR: Yeah. When I, and it’s not in the logbook but this trip I made from, from, I went up to north west India and flew this Beechcraft home. Well, I didn’t fly it home. I flew it to Munich. Not in. It’s not in there.
HB: Oh no. It’s in here.
MR: What? All the trip?
HB: It went, you went from Chopta.
MR: Where?
HB: Chopta to Bahrain. Bahrain to Kuwait. Kuwait to Haifa. Haifa to Cairo. Cairo to Tel Aviv.
MR: That’s it. Yeah. That’s it.
HB: Tel Aviv to Castel something.
MR: Castel Benito.
HB: Castel Benito. Then you went to —
MR: Marseilles.
HB: Marseilles.
MR: It’s there is it? Oh.
HB: Paris, Munich.
MR: That’s it. Yeah.
HB: And you finished at Bovington [laughs]
MR: Well, my mate flew me back home to Bovington for —
HB: Yeah.
HB: I had my demob there. I got a suit from them.
HB: From the Americans?
MR: No. it was in this country.
HB: Oh [laughs] Yeah. I was joking Maurice.
MR: When I was, when I was demobbed.
HB: Yeah. It’s, no it’s, now that’s interesting because it’s, a Beechcraft is quite a small aircraft.
MR: Oh yes. Well, it was I say it was used as a taxi.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Flying backwards and forwards in that.
MR: There were only about four seats in it. Behind the pilot was a, there was no dividing thing you know. Just four seats behind you when you flew it.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Four or six. I forget now whether it was four or six seats for people to sit there.
HB: Yeah.
MR: It was a tad silly really but the Americans it was on a lease lend and they had to go back to the Americans when the war finished.
HB: Now, when I spoke to you to arrange the interview and having spoken to your son.
MR: Yes.
HB: You’ve sort of skated over something that happened to you involving being torpedoed.
MR: Oh, that was, that was in, yes, when I left Canada to come back I came back, it was in January. When I came back there was, there was three troopships and two destroyers in the North Atlantic, and I think there was someone in the Canadian customs who was a German sympathiser and he was in touch with the U-boats. So when we left this Halifax place to come with these troopships with these two destroyers the U-boats waited for us. And the first night out we had I don’t know how many alarms we had with U-boats. And then we, a bit later on apparently one of the torpedoes was heading straight for a troop ship, I’m talking about five thousand troops on board, heading for this troop ship and a Dutch destroyer sailed in the way of it. The captain, he arranged for the destroyer to sail in the path and the torpedo blew up the destroyer and they had two survivors. And then the one, the one destroyer was circling round and round and round. And when they had [pause] when we got back to Liverpool they had a collection for the crew which is most unusual in wartime. Having a collection because they were so grateful to this destroyer. You know looked after them so well.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The crew.
HB: It’s sad. It’s sad losing all those guys.
MR: You don’t hear about these things do you really? Generally.
HB: Well, it’s because people like you Maurice don’t talk about them.
MR: Yes.
HB: Or haven’t talked about them until now.
MR: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. I mean you’re right, you know a collection for a crew of a destroyer, you know.
MR: And, and that, it could be quite a bit of money. All these troops. They weren’t just troopships. There were important people on board too you know.
HB: Yeah.
MR: People who were going home to England. Important people who travelled. I don’t know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, we’ve, we’ve got you back to Bovington.
MR: Yes.
HB: You got married in 1945.
MR: Oh yes.
HB: So that would have been before you went out to India.
MR: Before I went to India. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Yeah. I had one week’s leave [laughs] I got married. One week’s leave and then I was away for nearly twelve months in India and Burma.
HB: That’s, now, that is a long distance relationship.
MR: [laughs] Yeah. The only communication we had were by, I used to write her letters and I think there’s still some that’s upstairs.
HB: Yes.
MR: I must, I must get rid of those too. Those letters. I don’t want other people reading them.
HB: Well [laughs] but so you’ve, you’ve come back. You’ve gone to Bovington.
MR: Yeah.
HB: To be demobbed.
MR: Right.
HB: And ⸻
MR: I’ve got to get myself a job after.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Had a fortnight’s leave and then I’d got to find a job. I went to Jones and Shipman.
HB: Which is an engineering company.
MR: Yes. It is.
HB: In Leicester.
MR: It was.
HB: Or was.
MR: It’s gone now.
HB: Yeah. And what did, what sort of engineering did you do there, Maurice?
MR: I wasn’t an engineer. I was on the commercial side and I only had three years with Jones and Shipman. Then I went to Perry Parkers, and they were [laughs] they were a family firm. I was on exports there. Commercial again. Then I went to Richard’s and I spent thirty years with Richard’s and I retired from Richard’s.
HB: And what did Richard’s do?
MR: Well, they were structural. They were structural engineers. They used to have these structures with, you know RSJs and beams and things, and also they had a foundry too. What they called meehanite foundry. It was like a superior cast iron. Cast iron thing they made in the foundry.
HB: Yeah. And you were there for thirty years.
MR: Yeah. I was commercial manager actually.
HB: Yeah. So —
MR: All the buying and all the commercial side.
HB: Yeah. When, when, when you look back now you know not having really talked much about the war but you’re looking back now from being one hundred years old.
MR: Yeah.
HB: What, what do you think you took into your life from your wartime experience?
MR: Oh well, it made a man of me actually I think. I was only a boy when I went in and I had led a fairly sheltered, although not a, we weren’t, we weren’t particularly wealthy. We were, well we were poor really in Manchester but it, it made me a leader. It did me a lot of good really being in the RAF. In the fact, that it built my character I think to not worry about, it doesn’t bother me about people or anything really. I wasn’t, I wasn’t afraid of dying. I didn’t want to get wounded but I was never afraid of dying, not even on trips. I wasn’t scared of going on trips.
HB: Right.
MR: I don’t know why that was. I never felt frightened at all because I didn’t, it didn’t worry me if I got killed really before, that was before I was married of course.
HB: Yes. Yes. Of course. And, and, and that experience obviously took you through. You mention leadership.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And, and that sort of brings you back to how close you worked with your crew.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And you led them and you took that forward but with your crew as a group of men together do you think that worked for them as well? Having you as the pilot.
MR: Well, it could do but you were the boss actually. There was no question. Whatever you said went. If you said, ‘Bale out.’ They’d bale out. Or anything, you know. You, you were like a captain of a ship really, I suppose. Your word was law and there was no, they never questioned it. I remember coming back from a raid once and the rear gunner said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I think there’s a fighter. I can’t, can’t quite see it.’ So he said, ‘I’m not sure.’ So I did a corkscrew you see and he said, ‘Oh you’re alright. No. Don’t worry. Don’t get bloody mad.’ Something like that. I said, ‘Who the bloody hell are you talking to?’ [laughs] And of course he shut up then.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But that’s just an instance of your life you know.
HB: Yeah. I can, yeah I can understand that. I can understand that. So you marry.
MR: When I finished my tour I got married.
HB: You married Sylvia.
MR: Had a week’s leave and then to —
HB: Yeah.
MR: I went to India.
HB: And you set up home here in Leicester.
MR: Well, yeah. I lived in Braunstone actually for, when my, there was houses being built. Twelve hundred pound they were. Houses being built, two up and two down and I had one of those in, just off Braunstone Lane and I lived there for about two years. And then I, in this area, this is in 1952 I think I bought this plot where the house is built. I had an architect and we built the house. We built this house and I’ve lived here for sixty odd years. My wife and I have had sixty years in this house. She’s now in Kirby House.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Care home. But we had sixty, and I’ve lived here for sixty eight, excuse me sixty eight years. And the house was built with the architect and I mean things like the picture window there and the hatch was ours. You know. We wanted that.
HB: Yes.
MR: Sylvia and I. And he, you know was a good architect. All his, every window in the house looks out on the back garden. Three bedrooms. Three bedroom windows. And the architect was very good.
HB: Yeah. That’s lovely.
MR: And we’ve liked this house. We’ve always been very happy in it.
HB: Yeah. Well, we’ve sort of naturally come to an end —
MR: Right.
HB: Of the interview, Maurice and I thank you.
MR: Well, thank you for coming any way.
HB: Well, it’s, and I don’t say this lightly it’s, it’s a privilege really to be able to get you to tell your story and to have your story recorded.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And I thank you for that and I’m sure in the future when people look in to what Bomber Command did in years to come somewhere in there, there will be this little comment from —
MR: Yeah.
HB: From Maurice Roberts.
MR: Well that’s nice to know, you know.
HB: Yes.
MR: And I’ve got this this thing. This aircrew medal plus.
HB: Yeah.
MR: That David Cameron, well it would be, and bar that’s it.
HB: The clasp. Yeah.
MR: The aircrew. And I’ve also got the medal from the French government. The Legion d’Honneur.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Have you seen that?
HB: No. What, what I’ll do now is I will terminate the interview if I may —
MR: Yes.
HB: And we’ll go on to the other bits, because there’s bits of paperwork.
MR: Right.
HB: So, thank you again Maurice.
MR: Ok.
HB: And we’ll just stop the interview.
MR: Right.
HB: I normally say the time but I can’t see the time. So, it’s twelve something I think. Oh dear.
MR: That’s not going that clock. The time. Look at my watch. That’s the correct time.
HB: It’s ten minutes past twelve.
MR: Right.
HB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Roberts
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARobertsM200219, PRobertsM2001
Format
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00:54:47 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Manchester, he was 20 years old in 1940 when he joined up and volunteered for aircrew. He trained in South Africa, Canada (Moncton and Trenton), the Unites States (Lakeland), and was torpedoed in the Atlantic on his way back. Maurice flew Tiger Moths, Oxfords, Wellingtons, and Halifaxes. After being stationed at a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Lossiemouth, he was posted to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. He recollects operations to Essen, Cologne, Ludwigshafen and Chemnitz, mentioning 8-hour trips made possible by amphetamines ('Wakey-wakey' pills), heavy anti-aircraft fire, FIDO, and bomb-struck aircraft. On another occasion they were diverted to a Lincolnshire airfield for which they had not got the maps and couldn’t locate it. Having resigned to the fact that they would have to set a course out over the North Sea and then bale out, at the last moment Maurice spotted a light on the airfield and was able to land safely. They once had to land with a 2000 lb bomb still on board, which his crew considered the best landing he had ever done. In May 1945, he did 12 operations for bomb disposal in the North Sea, taking off from RAF Driffield. In June, with 10 Squadron and a new crew at RAF Melbourne, he flew C-47s training for operations on Japan, then was posted to the Far East. While stationed in Karachi, Maurice dropped supplies in the jungle. Demobilised in 1946, he pursued a career in engineering retiring as a manager – Maurice maintains that wartime service helped built his character. He stayed in touch with other 51 Squadron veterans through their association. In addition to his decorations, he was awarded the Legion of Honour.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland--Moray
England--Yorkshire
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Trenton
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
Florida
Florida--Lakeland
South Africa
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Cologne
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Pakistan
Pakistan--Karachi
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
South Africa--Vereeniging
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-25
1944-12-02
1945-01-02
1945-05
1945-06
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Graham Emmet
Steve Baldwin
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
10 Squadron
51 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb disposal
bomb struck
bombing
C-47
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Driffield
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Snaith
searchlight
submarine
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/353/3524/AWoodsL150428.1.mp3
0442bb8095618fa67e2185dba5c8075c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Woods, Laurie
L Woods
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Laurie Woods DFC. He flew operations as a navigator with 460 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Woods, L
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LW: This is a recording of my time in Bomber Command and my name is Flying Officer Laurie Woods, I hold an AEM an Australian medal, which has recently been awarded to me for significant research and writing of five books on my time in Bomber Command. I also hold an immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Cross, having flown home to England on my last trip in a Lancaster, and thus saving crew of seven and a Lancaster. I was born in Deloraine Tasmania, in December 1922, I grew up in Tasmania, and at the age of sixteen I made an attempt, or I asked my parents to sign for me to join the Royal Australian Navy as a cadet bandsman. They refused and so I carried on in my civilian life in working in the Tasmanian railways. Then at the age of eighteen, there was talk of conscription being introduced in Australia, and I talked with my parents and said if I volunteer in the air force I will not be conscripted other wise, I’m afraid I told them a lie, because I was in a reserved occupation, but I thought that I should serve, and it could, if I survived be possibly beneficial in my later life. So I persuaded them to join the air force, and when my mother found out that it was aircrew, she kept on telling, writing to me and saying please fail in your exams, and I wrote back and said ‘if I fail I would end up in the cookhouse, and I don’t want to be a bloody cook’ so when I was just, approximately one month before the Japanese entered the war I volunteered for aircrew in the RAAF, The Royal Australian Air Force that is. Then I was placed on, successfully accepted, and was placed on the reserved force for six months and I had three nights a week educational [hesitation] assistance to bring me up to the level that was required. Several times I said to my instructor I don’t think I can make it, but I carried on and finally I was taken into the air force on the 19th of June 1942. First it was to an initial training school in Victoria, it was the first time I had been out of Tasmania, and I was horribly seasick because it was the Bass Straight, it was one of the roughest sections of water in the world, and it took me about three days to get over that, and then we settled into a place called Somers for initial training school, which lasted for three months and unfortunately I got eighty seven percent in my final maths exam, so the aircrew allocation board decided I should be a navigator, or an observer as it was then, despite the fact that I had asked, or when it was offered to me, [inaudible background] I was asked what I would like to be, of course everybody wants to be a pilot, so I said I wanted to fly as a fighter pilot, and then rather a silly question I thought, ‘what sort of planes would you want to fly?’ And I said ‘well the fastest you’ve got’ and they said ‘well would you mind being a navigator, bomb aimer, gunner?’ and I said ‘no if I’m selected that way that’s the way I’ve got to go’ So because I had the eighty seven percent in maths I was made an observer. We spent three months at the initial training school, three months then on navigation, during the navigation exercise we did some cross country flights, and the Japanese were reported in Spencers Gulf which was off Adelaide, and we spent three days searching in Anson planes for these Japanese submarines, unfortunately we pointed it out that if the wind was blowing quite hard as it does in that area, we could end up going backwards. We didn’t have any guns if we spotted a submarine, what do we do with it? So they sent a squadron of Beau fighters to be fairly close so that if we did report, these Beau fighters would come in and deal with the submarines. Then following on I was, I received my wing a half wing, the observers wing and I was promoted to Sergeant. Then I was selected to go to England and we left the training section in Victoria, travelled to Sydney we were five days in Sydney and then we travelled north to Brisbane, and we sailed from Brisbane in an American cargo ship, and we were four hours passed the hospital ship Centaur when it was torpedoed and sunk with the loss of two hundred and forty seven lives, just off the coast of Brisbane. We crossed to America, crossed America by train and we were then two months in camp Myles Standish waiting for shipping to come to England, and on the 5th of July 1943 we left New York [hesitation], yes we left New York in the Queen Elizabeth, twenty two thousand troops on board, a lot of Negro soldiers from the American army were sleeping in the enclosed upper deck, and then there were probably about 240 Australian airmen, and some sailors who were coming over to England to return home on the HMS Shropshire, which had been granted to the Australian Navy.
Halfway across the Atlantic we were almost tipped out of our bunks at midnight, by the ship taking a ninety degree port turn, and then clapping on all speed, the ship was shaking from stem to stern, and for twelve hours, we found out we had been doing approximately forty three knots in the Queen Elizabeth, which was pretty fast for a big ship. But they thought we had run into either a pack of whales [?] or a pack of submarines. Anyway we finally got to England we landed at Grenoch, and overnight we travelled to Brighton by train, we were passing through London just as the sun was coming up, and the amount of damage that we saw made us pretty determined that the sooner we got over Germany and dealt out some of this to them, the more satisfied we would be. Anyway we settled in at Brighton, and the first night there Lord Haw Haw had announced that he knew that the Australians had moved from Bournemouth to Brighton, and they could be expecting a visit from Goring’s fighters. Anyway the attack came, and it was quite exciting we were hanging out of the Hotel Grand’s windows watching, and got very excited when we saw some tracer bullets out over the, the water, not very far out, and suddenly saw this explosion and presumed that it was a German fighter or bomber that had gone down. Anyway during the course of our time, we went to Whitley bay where we did a commando course, and then from there we went to West Freugh flying in Ansons, then to operational training unit flying in Wellingtons, there we did a leaflet raid on Paris, and after we left the target area, we were attacked and these tracer bullets seemed to follow us along explode, and then follow along a bit further, explode follow along a bit further, explode, and we came back and reported to intelligence that we thought they must have been magnetic or something because they seemed to be chasing us, and he told us we were perhaps a little bit stupid, that there was nothing like that, we found out many years later that it was the, probably the beginning of the heat seeking missiles that the Germans had developed. From Lichfield we carried on and we converted to Halifax, we did two diversionary raids out to round about two degrees east and then we finally arrived on 460 squadron the senior Australian Lancaster squadron, flying in Lancasters. Lancasters to us were just like going from a T Model Ford into a Rolls Royce, they were a marvellous plane, very responsive to controls, and of course they carried a terrific load of bombs. So we started off on our first raid approximately a fortnight after D day, and it was to a village in northern France, and things were going ok it seemed, well we were a little bit excited because we had been assigned to K2 ‘The Killer’ and it had a swastika on the nose, and it also had about thirty four trips up at that stage, and we hoped that it might last and keep us safe for quite a few more trips. Anyway we were sailing along and suddenly the rear gunner reports enemy fighter, dive left, so down went the nose, and being as I had volunteered to do my tour as bomb aimer, because they were a bit short of bomb aimers at that time, and I found very quickly that I was spread eagled on the roof of the plane because the nose had gone down so quickly, and so we did our first corkscrew, we were attacked by three fighters on that particular trip and it was quite exciting, but we got home safely. So from, that was the first raid we had been briefed for 21 raids in the first 7 days we were on the squadron, but we only flew three of them, and we went on raid here, raid there, raid somewhere else, and there were seven crews arrived on 460 and replacement crews for the raid on Mailly le Camp in France, where it was one of the heaviest percentage raid losses during the second world war, and we were one of the replacement crews. Now of those forty nine fellows five months later on the 9th of November on the last trip, there were only 6 in our crew left, and two other people, so it gives you an idea on how severe the losses were at the time, because we were flying in support of the British army after D Day and many of the raids were on troop concentrations, railway, railway stations or railway yards and then oil installations in the Ruhr Valley which was known as death valley by the crews because of the number of people who had been lost there. On our seventh trip we were assigned in, to fly the trip to Gelsenkirchen, and everything was going ok coming up on the target ahead it was just like a hailstorm of flak, and it got me a little bit worried I started to shake and shiver all over, I was that frightened that I didn’t think that I would be able to do my job, and this carried on for probably a minute or more and then suddenly there was this terrific explosion, and a Lancaster, we found out afterwards had blown out, blown up just above us and took half the pilots canopy out, and from the moment of that explosion I was as cool as a cucumber, you could say, carried on and did the necessary job, and we got through without too many holes, I think we had about thirty four individual holes from that trip, and I found out afterwards the navigator of Group Captain Edwards plane was Burt Uren [?] and he said that Group Captain Edwards, the first man to win the Victoria Cross, Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, in the RAF he was seconded to, [hesitation] yes he had been seconded pre-war to the RAF, and he said that Edwards just flew straight on through all the debris that was coming down and had not tried to dodge anything at all, as an experienced flyer I suppose he thought that in flying straight through he had just as much chance of getting through as what he would if he tried to dodge -, that, that was group captain Edwards, he was a pretty reasonable sort of a man and he was very much admired by the people operating on the squadron, he was their hero as a matter of fact. Excepting on one occasion, he always took rookie crews and he would fly around the target after the bombing. On one occasion on one target he went down to about fifteen thousand feet circling the target he was about forty five minutes late getting back to the squadron, everybody thought he had gone in, but he was [hesitation] he was, credited with probably about eighty to ninety raids, but he did probably another tour, with these rookies and although there were nine squadron commanders under him who were ordered a DSO, he did not get another decoration during his term, later he was of course a commander in chief of the, in the Suez crisis, and then he became governor of Western Australia and died about 1985. But, we carried on and everything was going ok, some raids you had trouble other raids were comparatively quiet, but in each case over the target it was just a little bit of bedlam, in Gelsenkirchen for instance they estimated there were five hundred ack ack guns and approximately three hundred searchlights, over each of the Ruhr targets that is Cologne, Essen, Stuttgart, we did nineteen trips altogether into the Ruhr, so we were fairly familiar with what to expect and what it was like over the Ruhr. But, we, on one occasion we were to fly to West Brunswick and drop a load there that's getting over towards the Russian side, and on the approach as soon as I opened the bomb doors our four thousand pound cookie dropped off and of course it was photographed, when we came back we reported that and they, the squadron people thought we might have dropped it in the North sea, as that had happened in several cases where crews had dropped their cookie over the north sea, because that was the most dangerous bomb we carried, and after several investigations during which time they were going to court martial me for doing that, or for dropping the bomb illegally before we got to the target, and finally I demanded a review on the plane and the bombing leader came with me and we had the engineer leader underneath the plane and I went through the procedure of dropping the bombs, and suddenly as the wiper wound round over the bombing station the engineer officer yelled out quite loudly, we checked with him and he had put his hand up on the the release station for the four thousand pounder and in doing so he received quite a bad shock. So they checked and they found that the wiring through he floor had frayed a little bit, and when the release was activated, or when the bomb bay was opened, power went through and fired the cookie station and dropped it away, they checked the planes on the squadron and there were about twelve Lancasters were in the same condition, and they had to renew the wiring, so they didn’t even say sorry about that but anyway we carried on. The last trip we had was to Wanne-Eickel in the middle of the Ruhr once again a oil, [hesitation] oil plant, and being the senior, one of the senior crews and the last operation for us, the, we were given the right flank and A flight commander was in the middle, and C flight commander was on the left flank, and we led Bomber Command through the target. We were flying at eighteen and a half thousand feet and had just dropped the bombs, when there was a terrific, quite a sharp explosion and then ‘Laurie Laurie quick’ and of course I shot back, I knew it had come from the pilot and I found him slumped over the controls and we were going into a dive, and he had a shell splinter had gone in just under the left eye, and it would be about two and a half to three inches long, and almost the size of an ordinary finger, and anyway I pulled the stick back so that we weren’t diving, and then the engineer and the navigation leader who was our navigator on that particular trip, lifted him from his seat, and laid him on the floor just beside the pilots seat and I took over. He had given me a ten minute [hesitation] shall we say a go at the controls, ten minute flying to see if I was able to fly a Lancaster, and from that he designated me as the, if he was in trouble that I was to be the one to take over. So on this particular occasion, so I took over with ten minutes flying experience, the one compass had been damaged, one had been toppled, and having been a boy scout I knew how to get a bearing from my watch, and fortunately we were still above cloud, and by lining the watch six and twelve in line with the sun I was able then to work out from my watch a course to fly back to Manston in, on the heel of England, so on the way back it was necessary to get the plane down below oxygen height so that [coughs] the engineering leader could, and the [hesitation] flight engineer, [corrects self] the navigation leader and the flight engineer could patch up the skipper, and so they stopped the bleeding as much as they could, he was bleeding out through the wound, through the mouth and through the nose, and I suppose because the shell splinter had been white hot when it went in, it seemed to seal off the bleeding because the bleeding stopped almost instantly, and so despite very rough flying conditions, and thoughts of whether I would be home or not and then telling myself to knuckle down I had a job to do, we carried on and the, to get down below height I had to select a break in the clouds, and so when one came up I put the nose down and we went down through a little bit of cloud, and then it thickened up and we were icing up very badly and the mid upper gunner was telling me, were icing badly we’d better get out of it, so I pulled back on the stick and we came out of the cloud, instead of flying straight and level we were practically over on one side, so I wasn’t going to circle or anything like that to try and get down through the cloud to a lower height, so I waited for the next break and then I put the nose down before we got to the break, sort of estimating that I would come into clear air about half way down, which did happen but once again the engineer [corrects self] the mid upper gunner got very excited because we were icing up badly and of course with a whole lot of ice on the plane you just crash, there is no way of keeping the plane flying, but we broke into clear air fortunately and then getting down towards the bottom, I had to go into cloud again and once again heavy icing but it was, in my opinion I just kept going and we broke through the cloud, and we were very close to the French coast flying under the cloud at fifteen hundred feet and I asked the navigator to take a fix half way across the channel, and that was the first, first input from the navigation on how we should be flying or what course we should be flying and I changed, or he gave the position, change course five degrees to starboard, which I did do and then as we crossed the coast the runway at Manston was directly underneath us, or directly ahead of us, so I had been thinking about it, worrying about the crew and so I spoke to them and said I am going to try and save Ted try and land and if you want to bail out I’ll take the plane up to minimum bailing out height of three thousand feet, firstly the rear gunner came on and said he volunteered to stay, and then the others one by one volunteered to stay. So with the aid of the engineer coming into land we got down to about a hundred feet with the fifteen degrees of flap, and everything all set and then he lowered the under cart, and as it went down of course the plane shakes and the pilot got the idea that he wanted to, by that time he was conscious, he had been unconscious most of the way because the navigator had given him on my command a hmm [hesitates] an injection of morphine, and many years later he said he couldn’t do that [slight laughter] and I remember quite distinctly saying when he said he couldn’t do it, I said ‘you bloody well do it because I’ve got to try and fly this plane and I can’t get down to do this injection too’ anyway we lifted him back into the seat and he made a perfect landing and then, but then halfway down along the runway in the landing, he collapsed over the controls so the engineer and I closed the motors down and turned everything off, we ran to a standstill and the ambulance people came and took him out to the hospital , where two eye specialists and a bone specialist operated on him next day and removed the, the [hesitation] shell splinter and for the next six months he slept with his, his left eye open and he recovered ok. We were flown back to Binbrook, by a Flying Officer Woods who was a new pilot on the squadron, and then I was sent down to London to be measured for my uniform, and after I came back I had two days leave and was recalled to do an air sea officers rescue course at Blackpool, and there it was when I was there a few days, when word came through that I had been awarded an immediate Distinguished Flying Cross, and of course the station there was commanded by a lieutenant commander from the Royal Navy so he spliced the main brace and great celebrations and they had sent a ribbon of the DFC for me and I took it home and, put it away in my bag and next day I went back to school, and he was waiting at the front door and he said ‘where’s your decoration ribbon?’ and I said ‘its home in the bag’ and he said ‘ well, from here on that’s part of your uniform, and if you don’t wear it next time you come here I will put you on a charge’ hmmmm, so I thought, didn’t think much of Royal Navy fellas you know, but I didn’t realise a decoration had to be worn as part of your uniform once you were, [hesitation] once you knew or had been advised of it. Then after the course was finished Runstead, General Runstead, had made the breakthrough almost to the coast and been turned back, so it was decided that the squadrons would not be having an air sea rescue officer because at that stage of the war, they, the powers that be decided that it wasn’t really necessary. So then I was sent to the aircrew allocation at Brackla, where we did a six weeks, sort of investigation whether, how we were placed and how we were, and all that sort of thing and they offered me a six weeks, [hesitation] sorry, they offered me a six year navigation course at Cranwell, and, or repatriation to Australia and as the Japanese war was still going on I said ok repatriation to Australia. So I returned to Australia, we did not get very much of a reception there were no brass bands to meet us and we found that it was a little bit of resentment against those returning from the European theatre, and we were very conscious of the fact that during our time on the squadron there had been a lot of fellows who had received white feathers signifying cowardice because we had not been fighting for the Japanese, and there was one case in particular a fella by the name of Ren Stobo who was a bomb aimer and the bombing leader had asked me to mentor him on the squadron and for maybe about six weeks he and I were together all the time we took his skipper on his first familiarisation trip over Germany and then on a trip, we came, when we came back just after this, we came back and the fog had closed in so we were diverted to another drome and then we were diverted to Water beach, a Liberator drome there they had wonderful food compared with us, the food that we were having, and the problem was they didn’t have any beds so we slept on the floor in the mess, some of the fellas who were lucky enough to get an armchair they were a bit lucky, we, the rest of us slept on the floor, the next morning when we came out, after breakfast to fly back home, the yanks could not find where to put the fuel in the Lancasters and of course we had the bomb bay doors open to check that everything was ok there, and the yanks were quite amazed they were saying, oh the Liberator carried eighty, eighty, one hundred pound of bombs how much was there? and only a hundred and seventy five thousand pound of bombs, which was a bit more than double the Liberator, anyway when we were taking off I’ve never seen so many cameras in all my life there were probably two or three hundred of them all lined up round the, [hesitation] the approach to the runway taking photographs of these battle scarred Lancasters. Anyway we got back and this Ren Stobo and his crew was reported missing, and they got down too low and they crashed into a hill very close to the drome and the mid upper gunner who had been injured over the target and was unconscious was blown in his turret a half a mile, and landed in a tree, and when he came to, he thought he was still over Germany and had to be careful, so he didn’t realise he was up the tree and he got out of his turret and of course dropped to the ground, hurt both his ankles, and it was daylight and he saw a two story house over a little way and there was an old fella digging some potatoes in the field, and down inside our boot we had a razor sharp knife that was used to cut the top off our boot to make it look like we had peasant boots, and so he cut the top off his boots and then he hobbled over and he grabbed this old fella put his arm round his, put his arm round the old fellas neck, held the knife to his throat, and because we had a little card that had German and French written on it, he asked in German ‘where am I?’ and the old fella didn’t answer, and then he asked him in French ‘where am I?’ and the old fella still didn’t answer so, Jack Cannon, was the mid upper gunners name, he was a sports writer on the Age in Melbourne, and when he hadn’t received an answer he said ‘ I wish these old bastards could speak English’ and the old fella sais ‘thee be in Norfolk lad, over yonder is Kings Lynn’ so they got the police and others and they thought he might have been a German spy dropped into the place but they, after interrogating him they cleared him ok, now Jack Cannon returned to Australia and about 1985 he went back and there was a young lady who had been there and knew all about him from his original landing there, she showed him where the parachute was buried, and looked after him and that’s how they discovered that he had blown half a mile in his, in his turret. Anyway I left Tasmania in 1956 and I went to Northern New South Wales and I was there till 1980 then I moved to Brisbane, in 19, 1990 the, they were having a reunion in Brisbane and I had joined up with 460 squadron, and Christmas morning of 1989 I suppose it would be, I got a phone call and a fella says ‘is that Laurie Woods?’ yes, ‘were you on 460 squadron? Did you fly in K2 the Lancaster K2 the killer? Yes ‘Ah was Peter O’Dell your engineer?’ yes ‘ well I’m Clive Eaton his son in law’ and I said ‘oh, where’s Peter O’Dell then?’ he said ‘oh he’s right here’ so for the first time in hmmm, 45 years I spoke with Peter O’Dell our engineer, and I during the course of the conversation, I said to Peter ‘why don’t you and your wife come to Brisbane in a couple of months time to the reunion’ so Peter said he would think about it, a couple of days later I got a phone call to say yes he and his wife Lorna, were coming to Brisbane, so they came for six weeks attended this reunion and we renewed our mateship I suppose you could call it, as we had been flying together for around about 8 months, and back home they came, just after that they had a, our annual meeting of 460 squadron for Queensland and the president said would someone else like to take over he said ‘I’ve had this reunion over and I feel someone else might like to take over’ so I put my hand up, and I was appointed as the 460 squadron president for Queensland, the Queensland branch, and so up to that date I hadn’t talked about, I couldn’t talk about my war experiences and I, because I was asked to go to schools and talk to school children and various other places, I gradually got that I could talk about it, and several times I got asked questions that I couldn’t possibly answer, it was, it just seemed to upset my whole system and so. G for George the Lancaster in the Australian war memorial in Canberra had been re-furbished and was being, going to be put back into the war memorial in 2003, December 2003, December the 6th 2003, so I had helped in organising a reunion in Sydney and I said to these fellows ‘What about a reunion in Canberra for the re-introduction of G for George?’ So they thought it would be a good idea but they couldn’t do it, and Western Australia couldn’t do it, South Australia couldn’t do it, and I said ‘ well I will’ and the reunion at that stage was about 330 people, members of 460 squadron and wives, and I approached this the cheapest way, and the most satisfactory way was to approach the Dutch ambassador because of the Manna drop of food to the starving Dutch people in, [hesitation] in the end of March 1945, when a thousand Dutch people were dying every day because of lack of food, and so the Dutch ambassador said ok, luncheon engagement, and of course we had to talk, and the minister for veteran affairs who organised a dinner and a visit to the memorial hall in parliament house in Canberra, and then we had a welcome dinner which was attended by the minister for veteran affairs, and I had a phone call from Group Captain at that stage Group Captain Angus Houston, and he was the commander of the Australian air force at that stage. He came and he enjoyed it so much, but he couldn’t leave until the minister for veteran affairs left, so I asked her when she would like to leave and she said ‘oh it depends on Angus’ so it depended on both of them, and they stayed till after 10 o’clock, which was quite a feather in our hat, but Angus during the course of the evening told me that his father had been taken prisoner, he was in the British army and had been flown back to England by a Lancaster, but he wasn’t sure and he never ever came up with an answer what squadron, anyway Angus was going off to the middle east the following day and they left a bit after 10 o’clock. The Lancaster of course, we had a preview of it, we were the first persons to go in there and see the Lancaster and it was pretty terrific to catch up with the Lancaster once again, its something that the, I think all the aircrew of bomber command who flew in Lancasters think that the Lancaster was such a wonderful plane, and its very moving to go and see, and just stare, well as a case in point we, my wife and I came to England, and we stayed with the engineer and his wife and we went to one of the museums where there was a Lancaster, and we were standing there, we walked all round it and we’re standing there looking and I don’t know for how long and then our wives came along and said ‘when are you two fellas going to move we’ve been here long enough’ but it was just [hesitation] well, I don’t know what you would say, but it was such a moving experience to see another Lancaster, Wonderful! However after writing that book, and I kept on getting questions I had a website 460 squadron RAAF.com, after getting all these questions on the website, and whenever I gave a talk I thought well there’s a lot of, a lot of interesting stories, wonderful stories really, and so I decided I should sit down and I wrote a further three books on the bomber command, and this is one reason I suppose the government have awarded me Australia medal which is the equivalent of an OBE, and I return to Australia because one week from today on the 8th of May 2015, I go to government house in Queensland to be presented with my award. But I find that it is very much a closure for a lot of people, I have been kissed, cuddled, squeezed by the women, fortunately not by the men, but the men have shaken my hand that many times and I’ve had my photo taken, I don’t object I think that people, if they want to take my photo, ok, I always wear my medals for the book signing but, I was at a book signing shopping centre, and a person came along and they said ‘ah, do you know Joe Harman?’ no I don’t ‘well he’s got an interesting story you should look him up’ so I [inaudible] pulled out this one book at opened it up, I said ‘is this the fella you’re talking about? Joe Harman’ ah yes, he got a DFC but he was one of the smart [laughter] smart pilots, they’re all smart [laughter]pilots, and he had given the order, they were on fire over a target and he’d given the order to bail out and after the last fella had gone he reached for his parachute just as the plane blew up and he was blown out without his parachute into clear air, and he’s coming down and he felt something so he immediately grabbed and it turned out to be his mid upper gunners legs, and they both come down on the one parachute together, almost unbelievable that anyone would risk their life. And then I was at a reunion, at this reunion in Sydney, and a fella Harold Joplin who was there his, were talking and of a particular target and he said ‘we were over there’ I think he said first over or second over and I said ‘ I don’t think, I think we were in front of you’ so we had a bit of an argument and I said to him ‘well what do you, what was your most memorable experience in the air force?’ he said ‘ well on that target we were shot down’ I said ‘what happened?’ and he said ‘well they, we were hit and we were on fire so I gave the order to bail out’ and he said ‘everybody had bailed out’ and then the mid upper gunner tapped him on the shoulder, and said ok skipper its time to go, and the mid upper gunner Don Annett turned round and he walked back through the, the plane on fire to the door where we entered the Lancaster, and picked up the pilots parachute went back hooked it on him and he said ‘ ok now skipper we can go’ so they jumped and on the way down of course the plane was circling on fire and crashed, and Harold Joplin the pilot landed in the middle of a street, just as a German patrol came through looking for him or looking for any of them, so he had dumped his parachute and he joined in on the back end of this German patrol looking for himself, one of the German soldiers said something to him and he said ‘ya ya’ and that sort of satisfied the German fella, came to a little side street and Harold shot down this side street and there was a field of corn at the end of it, he hid, he hid in there for 3 days and the resistance people found him, and he joined them then on a couple of the raids, and a couple of them said to him ‘if we had a gun carriage or tank or something like that we could probably do a lot more damage’ so next morning Harold disappeared, a couple of days later he turned up again, riding a tank down the middle of the main street, and so he joined them in another couple of raids and then they, he said he wanted to get back to England because once you’ve been flying you want to keep on flying, and you had six weeks on and then six days off in that six weeks on of course it was all on, six days off no matter where you were you would see bomber command going out and the first 3 days I personally found, I thought oh, good luck fellas, the next 3 days I’d see them going out and think I should be there with them helping them, I should be still flying, anyway, Harold decided he wanted to get back to the squadron back to flying, and so three Belgian girls went to the check point where there were German guards and they flirted with the German guards while Harold went through behind them, and he got back to England and he reported to the squadron and they said, he said he wanted a decoration for Don Annett for what he had done, he thought it was absolutely fantastic that a man should go back through a plane that’s on fire, all the others had bailed out and get his parachute and bring it forward and save his life, and they said well were there witnesses? And he said ‘well I told you everybody had bailed out and Don came forward to bail out, he and myself were the only two left in the plane’ well, sorry about that we can’t do anything without a witness, and we cannot accept your word that he was there as a witness. So that was that, but that is, a couple of the stories that stand out in my mind there is of course many many stories like that and well in writing five books you can imagine there’s a lot of stories like that I came across that I could not believe that these fellas had survived, and yet they had done so, and I found that it was very much a closure for a lot of people to be able to come along and just talk to me or buy a book and, or have their photo taken with me, and so it has been a dedication of my life for the past [pause] hmmm 25 years on preserving the name of 460 squadron, Bomber command association might not agree with me, but on the records 460 squadron Australian Lancasters was the top squadron in bomber command, unfortunately we were the second highest in casualties but, we were commanded by Group Captain Edwards the VC man and out motto was, ‘press on regardless’ and I suppose his actions on that Gelsenkirchen trip would be enough to pass on to anyone, as Burt Uren [?]said he flew round afterwards and he was saying ‘come up here you bastards, come up here you bastards, let me get at you come on, come up here and have a go’ but that I think was the attitude of a lot of Australians, when we lost fifty percent like everyone else, but the survivors were very very happy that they had done, what they had done, and I think it was pretty universal that the majority of them would not talk anything of their actual fighting experiences, but anything like any fun that was top of the bill, we had a pilot who decided he wanted to go and use the toilet or as it was called the Elson down the back end of the Lancaster, so he put one of his crew into the seat to fly straight and level while he went back, he got back there and don’t know whether it was a little bit of roughness or a bit of movement by the non skilled pilot, he sat down on the seat and at forty degrees centigrade, [corrects self] minus forty degrees, if you touch metal with bare skin you stick to it so he stuck to the seat and he had to get three of his crew to haul him off and left a ring of skin of course, on the toilet seat, so for one month he was eating and drinking or whatever off a shelf high enough, like a mantle shelf or whatever, and he was continually asked how is the decoration going [slight background laughter] I’ve just forgotten what it was called but everybody knew this pilot could not sit down, and that he had lost a ring of skin off his bottom. All part of the game lot of fun, flying in bomber command was fantastic, the Lancaster was fantastic, it was a part of a job that we had to do we had volunteered to do it, and I think most of us afterwards appreciated the fact that we had survived, and that we had done something worthwhile in our life, I think, that after the war I had a pretty good time up until the, I turned about [hesitation] ooh about 1968, 46, I had a breakdown, and I was taken into hospital and they gave me shock treatment, and then fed me I class them as suicide pills, I felt like I wanted to end it all, but I had a wife and daughter that I needed to look after and a friend came by and he said ‘ why don’t you throw those medications they gave you into the river?’ I thought about it for a couple of days and I threw them away and for about one month I suffered withdrawal system [corrects self] symptoms, and I think that in many cases the medications that are given to fellas who are suffering from, oh what do they - PSD, or whatever they call it today, medications are the wrong type of medications and my advice to many of the fellows has been, write it down on a piece of paper and then, even if you throw the paper in the bin afterwards at least you’ve told someone and it does relieve a lot, because I found writing these books has taken a lot of that out of my mind and I have survived quite ok. And in doing the work I have it is only this Australian medal like an OBE, has been very satisfying and has helped me a lot in my life, I had just recently, a fella came up to me at Carandale and he was carrying his little girl on his shoulder, and I said ‘ when I came back from the war, my daughter was two years old and I carried her on my shoulder just like that’ and he said ‘I don’t like shopping centres’ and I thought that’s a strange thing to say and I said ‘ why don’t you like the shopping centres?’ and he said ‘well I’m just back from Afghanistan and everyone is coming toward me, or most of them, I think I wonder if they’ve got a knife or I wonder if they’ve got a gun’ and he said ‘ I just want to get her away out of the shopping centre, it just sends me completely’. Well I dunno I think I’ve said enough and so my name Laurie Woods of Australia of ex 460 squadron RAAF bomber command thank you for the opportunity of speaking with you.
MJ: This is Michael Jeffery at the interview with Laurie Woods on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre I would like to thank him for his recording on the date of the 1st of May 2015 on the time of 12.30, thank you.
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AWoodsL150428
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Interview with Laurie Woods
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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01:06:17 audio recording
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Pending review
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Mick Jeffery
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2015-05-01
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Flying Officer Laurie Woods DFC was born in Deloraine, Tasmania, in 1922. He grew up in Tasmania, and at the age of eighteen, despite being in a reserved occupation, he volunteered for Air Crew in the Royal Australian Air Force. Initially training in Victoria, then Somers, he achieved high scores in his maths exams and was put forward for Navigator or Observer. During training flights over Spencers Gulf in Anson aircraft, they were tasked with spotting Japanese submarines. He received his Observers wing and was promoted to Sergeant, then selected to go to England. He travelled from Victoria on an American cargo ship, via Sydney and Brisbane to Myles Standish, America, awaiting transportation to England. He eventually arrived at Brighton via Grenoch, just as Lord Haw Haw announced an operation on Brighton. He was then posted to West Freugh flying Ansons, then to operational training units flying Wellingtons. His crew were allocated the Lancaster K2 in 460 Squadron. The operations included, leaflet drops over Paris, Mailly le Camp, railway and oil installations in the Ruhr Valley, Gelsenkirchen, West Brunswick, and his last operation Wanne-Eickel. On his last operation he took over from the pilot who had been injured and flew the aircraft home. The pilot recovered sufficiently to land the aircraft and Laurie was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. He also talks about being afraid going on operations, and how, many years later he suffered a breakdown because of his experiences. Laurie is President of Queensland 460 Squadron Association and has written a number of books about his experiences. In Australia he has been awarded the Order of Australia.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Great Britain
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
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Linda Saunders
460 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Lancaster
memorial
navigator
observer
propaganda
sanitation
submarine
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1039/11411/AMulhallJE160823.1.mp3
673bbe19930c11fe8fca198bcc140a3e
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Title
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Mulhall, James
James Edward Mulhall
J E Mulhall
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with James Mulhall (b. 1924, 224223 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 75 Squadron before becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mulhall, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM1: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is James Mulhall. The interview is taking place at Mr Mulhall’s home in Heaton Chapel, Stockport on the 25th of August 2016. Jim, could you tell us a little bit about your life before you joined the RAF and what it was that motivated you to enlist?
JM2: The main thing I should imagine, I was born in Gorton, at 151 Hyde Road, which was my grandmother’s house and subsequent schooling was at Catholic schools, the last one being St Roberts in Longsight. I, er, was tending towards mechanical things at a fairly early age but I was apprenticed as a plumber to a man called Frank Butler for some years before the Blitz became something of a nuisance in Manchester. So, it was while I was in — my sister and mother used to nip down to the Anderson shelter in the garden but I was too lazy to do this and used to stay in bed, until a bomb dropped nearby which decapitated a man in the next street and forced me under the bed, and I didn’t like this idea at all, so I decided when the time was ripe I’d join the Air Force and get a little bit of my own back. So, er, this is how it transpired I became an Air Force [slight cough] member. The — I was inaugurated at Dover Street in Manchester, went to Padgate for initial training, was sent to Skegness for the usual square bashing and then on from there to St Athan to train as a mechanic, and from there back to Henlow to assemble hurricanes as a mechanic. They came over from Canada in boxes and we put them together, put the wings on and flew them off to squadrons. From there on I decided — well, I was able to go into aircrew and I went back to St Athan to train as a flight engineer and that began the system that we’re talking about now.
JM1: Thank you and what year was that please?
JM2: 1942. In November I joined up and I left in February 1946.
JM1: Right. From St Athan did you go straight to an Operational Training Unit?
JM2: We went to, er, RAF Stradishall to con on Stirlings because I was trained on Stirlings. Spent thirteen weeks, believe it or not, in learning every nook and cranny of this aircraft which was a horrible, awful airplane from my point of view, all electrical and a real nuisance to get about because of this. It had four radial engines, twin row, fourteen cylinder, sleeve-valve, air-cooled engines which are a nightmare to maintain. However, while, whilst doing Con Unit we got the opportunity or were offered to change to Lancasters which we did to a place called Feltwell. And while everybody else’s job was the same, mine was totally different. I had four liquid cooled, twelve cylinder, in line engines to cope with as well as completely diff— different systems of doughty and pressure volumes for the various systems in the aircraft. I got a fortnight to do this and I didn’t enjoy it at all I must admit so presumably I learnt as I went along in Con Unit more or less and got away with it fortunately.
JM1: When you were operating Lancasters did you work closely with the ground engineers?
JM2: That was my job entirely [emphasis]. The rest of the crew weren’t interested in the aeroplane as a mechanical object. All they were interested in really was in flying in it. But my liaison with the ground crew was uppermost in this system because I had to go to every morning, well at least after every operation, after I had a sleep to go and run the engines and get the aircraft ready for flight either that afternoon or evening and sign the 700, which I might point out was always the pilot’s duty in the years before, but when it came to four-engine aircraft and the flight engineer being trained to look after these systems he [emphasis] had to sign the 700, which for a nineteen-year-old was quite a, a thing to do because it hands the aircraft over to me, away from the ground crew. They then relinquish all [slight cough] responsibility for it so, yes, I had a great deal to do with the ground crew.
JM1: And when you were posted to 75 Squadron — I’ll go back a bit. When you crewed up with your crew how was that done please?
JM2: [laugh] In the most ambiguous way you can imagine. The crew had been working together as a crew, six members, flying Wimpys, Vickers Wellingtons, and so were well acquainted with one another over a period of two or three months I would imagine. Then one evening, when we’d passed out as engineers, they assembled all these crews that they intended to crew up with the engineers into the theatre at St Athan, which was quite a massive affair, and when they were all seated nattering to themselves us crews were ushered in and said, ‘Go and find yourself a crew.’ [laugh] We were flabbergasted there’s no doubt about it. Literally we were faced with all these pancake faces who we didn’t know from Adam and had to sort ourselves out and I finished up by going up to one chap I fancied the look of and I said, ‘Do you fancy me as an engineer?’ And he turned out to be Hugh Rees and he said, ‘Certainly. What’s your name?’ I said, ‘James Mul—’ ‘No.’ He said, ‘What’s your name?’ ‘Oh.’ I said, ‘Jim’. He said, ‘Well, I’m Hugh, this is Westie and this is Rees [?].’ And that’s how we went from there on in and it worked.
JM1: That’s remarkable isn’t it?
JM2: It surprised me I must admit.
JM1: It must have been difficult for you in that, in that atmosphere. It must have been very stressful.
JM2: I was very much the new boy with the cloak of fear, as you might say, surrounding the whole thing, yeah.
JM1: And were you then posted to 75 Squadron?
JM2: No. We had to con from there on in. We went to Stradashall to start flying Stirlings. All of us being strangers to that aeroplane and it was whilst we were there that the offer came. Well, more or less it came nearly as an order to tra— because of the losses in Bomber Command on Lancasters, which had a, a height minimum of five foot six before and I was five foot five and a half and others were small, as small as me, particularly the gunners, and, er, from there on in we transferred to Lancasters at a place called Feltwell and, as I’ve already said, that was the initial inauguration with the aeroplane and we had to come to terms with it from there on in.
JM1: But the posting to the squadron was something that you didn’t have any choice about. You, you were posted to 75?
JM2: No. We didn’t have any choice from that, no. We were posted as a crew to 75 Squadron.
JM1: And of course 75 was unusual because it was a New Zealand Squadron.
JM2: It was but there was a pretty scarcity of New Zealanders on the base, whether from losses or otherwise, I wouldn’t know. We had one New Zealander, New Zealander in our crew, and that was Westie, the bomb aimer. Westie his name was. A pretty ferocious character in his way and he wouldn’t mind me saying this but, er, he was always looking for trouble [laugh]. I never got on with him really because as he was on Stirlings he was second pilot on the Stirling where I was posted way, halfway, down the fuselage with all my gear as the flight engineer, but when we conned on Lancasters I [emphasis] became the second pilot and, unfortunately, Westie was dismissed into the bomb pit and he never got over this, so if he could drop me in the fertiliser he would do [laugh] and on some occasions did.
JM1: In what way?
JM2: Well, we came home one night and it was nearly dark and I was always last out the aeroplane. I had a lot of breakers and stuff to do and gather things up and I was always last out the aeroplane. As everybody else got out as quickly as they could, you know, to breathe the fresh air from the confines of the aeroplane and, er, when I came to get out of the rear door there’s no ladder. There used to be a little short ladder there and it’s about five, six foot to the ground and I said, ‘Where’s the ladder? Well, I don’t know. It must have fell out.’ Colloquial language to that effect and I didn’t get any reply from the darkness and I thought, ‘Somebody’s playing up or what. Come on.’ Anyway, I thought, ‘Oh, never mind.’ And I threw my bag out to one side so I wouldn’t drop on it when I jumped out. Decided to make the jump in the darkness, completely black, and I did so and landed in the largest puddle you’d ever seen in your life, to roars of laughter from everybody roundabout. So that’s one of the instances where Westie set me up and there were others of course along the way.
JM1: Did you get your own back?
JM2: Eventually. Unhappily [laugh] but anyway that’s another story.
JM1: OK. So once you were posted to 75 Squadron. That was at Mepal?
JM2: Meth— Mepal.
JM1: Mepal. Mepal. Could you tell us what it was like serving at Mepal in Cambridgeshire? What sort of a, a base was it?
JM2: It was a bit rough and ready. It’s, er, it was a satellite drome. Witchford was next door and Waterbeach was about ten or fifteen miles away. It was the parent aerodrome at that time. It was a bit uncomfortable in its way. The food was alright but the Nissan huts we were put, billeted in had no heating. We had a little potbellied stove which we used to steal coke to try and get warm and we used to steal it from the cookhouse, which we weren’t very popular with, er, but warmth was always at a premium on the base particularly in the later months, October and November, but the villagers were very good and fortunately I struck up an acquaintance with one of a girls in the village, so that made life a lot more pleasant [laugh] at 75.
JM1: Was it one crew per Nissan hut or more than one crew per Nissan hut?
JM2: We had two and sometimes spare bodies but there was no more than two full crews in a Nissan hut.
JM1: And did you ever have occasions where you had returned but the other crew were lost?
JM2: Unfortunately, yes, on many occasions when they came round, the SPs, Special Police, came round bundling up the kit into bags and emptying the lockers, and we knew then that, er, not only were they missing but they weren’t expected to come back.
JM1: How did you cope with that as a crew and as an individual?
JM2: We were all very young, you see, and you, you tend to adapt. I was only nineteen and I don’t think anybody was older than about twenty-two or twenty-three. In fact, the skipper was a month younger than I was. Fancy being in command of a Lancaster at nineteen years of age. Hugh Rees was his name. In fact, my son-in-law is in contact with his son at this particular time, yeah. So, er, you cope with it. Its empty tables around the mess for, for meals. Empty seats was another thing you learnt to cope with, so — but as I say being young you just adapted. You were thankful to survive.
JM1: Can we turn now to your operations? Could you tell us a bit about your first operation? How you felt and what happened?
JM2: [slight laugh] It was, er, a daylight raid to the U-Boat pens at St Nazaire and as we were under radar, flying at under two thousand feet, and only climbing to the operational height of ten thousand as we approached the target. As we were the third wave in we were startled to see the sky literally black with ak-ak puff smokes and as a green crew this, er, didn’t look very pleasant to us at all but we were to learn of course that these weren’t the things which we were to worry about. It was the ones that we didn’t see that we had to worry about. However, we got through the, the business of dropping the load on the U-Boat pens, notwithstanding seeing a flamer on the left and a flamer on the right, going down both the port and starboard sides, which wasn’t encouraging. However, we got through it and the frightening period [unclear]. We were never ever that frightened again, I don’t think, in targets unless we were coned over search— over on the run in to Rüsselsheim we were coned by searchlights and that was a pretty scary time because we were blinded by the searchlights. We couldn’t see a thing, ducking and weaving and we managed to outfly them with little damage. That was another scary raid but most of them were just enduring the cold and getting through the operation as safely as possible.
JM1: So, when you came back from that first trip to St Nazaire, how long did you have before you had your second operation?
JM2: Oh, I can’t remember that. I think it was about three or four days. The battle order used to be posted up on the, on the mess door, and that was always the thing we looked at first when we got up in the morning before breakfast. Check the battle order, see if you were on it and, er, that’s four or five days I think. Let us settle down before they flung us in again.
JM1: If you, if you were flying that night, if you were on operations, your day would start quite early as the flight engineer presumably, helping getting everything ready?
JM2: Yeah, yeah. Even if I weren’t on battle order I’d still be going up to flights to check the aircraft and see if anything needed rectifying in, in the meantime even if we weren’t. I can only remember two occasions when we weren’t on the battle order, to be quite candid. So, er, we pulled our weight I think.
JM1: I’m sure you did. How many of your operations were daylight operations?
JM2: Oh, I can’t remember that now.
JM1: Roughly.
JM2: I’d say about ten. Nine or ten operations were in daylight, yeah.
JM1: And when you first started to operate at night did that give you as an engineer extra problems in terms of reading the gauges and controlling the engines and the fuel?
JM2: Well, I had to make a log out every twenty minutes and so I had to use a shaded torch to do this. I might have taken my gloves off incidentally which was a dangerous practice. We all had three sets off gloves, silk, cotton and leather and these we kept on all the time until I had to make log out when I had to take the gauntlet and the, er, cotton gloves off so that I could write my log out easily with a pencil and the shaded light. But there was a danger in this, in-as-much-as, the outside temperature of the aircraft round about twenty-two thousand, twenty-four thousand feet was often minus forty degrees, and this meant that the skin of the aircraft and metal things inside it was a similar thing, and if you happened to not use our gloves — and Tee Emm used to report this often enough — and reach for the tank cocks in a rush realising you should have changed cocks before. If you got hold of those with your bare hands that’s where you stayed because the sweat on your hands froze, your fingers, to any metal you touched near the skin of the aircraft. So, I was always careful to keep my gloves on obvious. But some engineers wouldn’t write with cotton gloves on and there were a number of occasions when this happened and was reported in the aircrew magazine of Tee Emm, pointing out the dangers of not doing this.
JM1: So, Tee Emm was an official document or an unofficial?
JM2: It was an official document, a magazine, circulated to aircrew. [laugh] The editor being Pilot Officer Prune who was always subject to these kind of things, yeah.
JM1: And for the record I think it was TEE EMM, wasn’t it? TEE EMM.
JM2: Yes, TEE EMM.
JM1: Thank you. And, in order to do your duties when the aircraft was flying, you wouldn’t be keeping still, you’d be walking up and down the side of the cockpit to the various controls?
JM2: I had a little collapsible seat, which I used I could, but most of the time because I had to reach behind for tank cocks and checking gauges the engineer’s panel was behind the seat on the star— on the starboard side of the aircraft. So it was a nuisance to keep getting up out of the seat. I used to stand most of the time and just lean down with my shaded torch, and flash it slightly, and the luminosity from the gauges would tell me what was going on.
JM1: Did you have any occasions where your aircraft had to return because of mechanical problems so you didn’t complete a sortie?
JM2: No. But we had one occasion I once lost an engine entirely in a Stirling but that’s a different story. The — I once had a CSU go geodetic, which meant that I couldn’t change the pitch, the revs, of the engine concerned, which was the starboard outer, and I reported this. We would take-off roughly at three thousand thousand RPM plus four boost, and we can maintain that for up to nine minutes, but then we have to reduce the revs to take the wear out of the engine, and this was my job to reduce it to climbing power once we’d reached the required height, but I couldn’t shut down the rev counter. I said, ‘This is going to make the engine overtired in its way and become a danger to the aeroplane and I suggest that we return.’ So the pilot said, ‘What can you do about this?’ And I said, ‘Nothing really. I can’t. It’s gone geodetic at the engine end and I can’t pull the lever back so I can’t reduce the revs.’ I said, ‘All I can do is try to keep it cool with a little bit of boost now and then and just hope it doesn’t exceed the limits of heat that it can stand. Because if it does it will cease and the prop will fly off and it will probably come in our direction if this occurs. It might even shake itself out of the bearings. I don’t know. I’ve never had a ceased up engine. I’ve never had a runaway before.’ So he said, ‘Well do the best you can. We’ll press on.’ I thought, ‘This was a rash decision in my opinion but there’s nothing I can do. He’s the captain of the aircraft.’ Fortunately, within half an hour we had an abort. The raid was called off, so we were able to run back to the aerodrome with an emergency and land with the aircraft running at full revs. That engine run for an hour and half at full revs and never missed a beat. Congratulations Rolls Royce. It was changed of course but, er, incredible really for an engine of that size.
JM1: Jim, Jim could I ask you to explain what you mean the word “boost” for those listening?
JM2: Oh, this is a question of pumping more fuel into the cylinders to improve the volume metric efficiency of the engine at that time. Plus four gives us the best we can do. Plus two is what we usually fly at. Our normal air speed is a hundred and eighty, hundred and ninety knots and it depends on height really how much you can boost but plus two is normal at two thousand two hundred revs.
JM1: Your memory, your memory for operating the Lancaster is remarkable.
JM2: Sometimes, in the dark hours [slight laugh], it seems like yesterday.
JM1: Jim, could you tell us a little bit about the atmosphere in the aeroplane when you were operating at night over Germany or enemy occupied Europe. What was it like there?
JM2: Its — you have to remember that there’s literally hundreds of aircraft converging on one target and the risk of collision at night is very, very high and this is one of the things that I think we feared most. In fact, on one occasion, we had on the bomb run, we had six incendiaries from another aeroplane hit our aeroplane because they were above us at a height they shouldn’t have been at, presumably to escape the — most of the flak, which was at operational height, and those incendiaries only failed to ignite because the pins were frozen in. They have a — it’s, about two foot long but hexagonal in shape and the igniter pin sticks out at the side but they’re held in by straps when they’re carried in the canisters that were in the aeroplane, but when they‘re released this little pin springs out so that when they hit the ground the detonator will go off and the magnesium will flare, but because they were frozen in they didn’t ignite when they hit our aircraft. So that was — we, I fished one out from underneath the navigator’s table. One of them knocked my engineer’s pile [?] down on the starboard side and one finished up on the platform of the mid upper gunner’s position. None of them ignited but three others were found by the ground crew piercing each wing and where the tail — the rudder stands up and the tail plane is horizontal — right in that nick there was another incendiary buried in that nick. Why, why the rudder didn’t come off I don’t know [laugh] but that, that was a case of being very close to another aeroplane at night. It was a fear most of us carried I think, collision at night. In fact, er, there’s one instance of we actually saw another plane below us because of the fires on the target. What he was doing down there I don’t know but he was below us. Fortunately he was to one side. But we could see him he was silhouetted against the flare of the fires and we were on the bomb run. What he was doing there I don’t know. I hope he got away with it. Most of it was radio silence because you had to keep intercom clear for emergencies.
JM1: I was just going to ask about that and how did you address one another? Was it pilot to flight engineer or was it first names?
JM2: No, it was always by the designation: pilot, engineer, bomb aimer, mid upper, wireless op, whatever, to make it clear who you were talking to and who was talking to you.
JM1: Yes. Did you have any, um, attacks from night fighters during your operational tour?
JM2: Curiously enough we were flying — when we went to Stettin, we overflew Denmark and Norway and our mid upper who was forty-two years old and well above the age for flying — he should — flying’s limited to people of thirty-five years. How he got away with that I don’t know. He must have been [unclear] somewhere. He had the finest eyesight I ever came across and while we were going over Norway he happened to see a flare path and we what? We were round about ten thousand feet I think. We weren’t too high. And these neutral countries used to fire flak up towards us but always well away from us, never with any no intention of shooting us down, but a token resistance as it were. And he happened to see a flare path at that distance and an aircraft with its nav lights on, going along that flare path, and he warned the skipper of this and he actually, he kept its nav lights on for quite some while, in fact until it was about a thousand feet below us when it switched off. It was obviously being vectored onto us and we watched it rise up along the side of us until our mid upper said to the rear gunner, Charlie, not rear gunner, but Charlie, ‘Let me have the first squirt at it.’ [slight laugh] And it actually rose alongside us about a hundred yards away with the pilot obviously looking upwards to look for our exhaust flames. We’d got eight blue exhaust flames going underneath the aircraft wing which were easily seen at night, particularly from underneath, and he must have been looking for those and not either side of himself. And both gunners had a, what they called, a squirt at it and it fell away but they didn’t, they only claimed a probable. We didn’t know what happen to it but it certainly fell away.
JM1: Had you ever discuss as a crew whether you would [emphasis] open fire because I know some gunners decided not to because they were afraid of drawing attention to themselves?
JM2: Well, funnily enough, we got some tracer coming towards us when we were getting close to the target and we didn’t know what, where it was coming from, but it passed underneath us. But the following day the ground crew dug a 303 bullet out of the tail wheel rims, so it was obviously a friendly aircraft. And the tail wheel had the double rims on it to stop it shimmying and it was that thickness of rubber that caught the, the bullet and they were able to dig it out and prove that it was a 303. So it was a friendly aircraft that had a go at us for some reason.
JM1: How about the weather that you experienced on operations?
JM2: This was always a problem. You’ll get ten tenths cloud over the target. Yeah, tell that to the marines. It was obviously ten tenths all the way, you know. There’s another thing flying in cloud that used to be unnerving to say the least, even in daylight, because you never know — people — we had a direction compass on but you never know when there’s a fault and an aircraft will drift in your path, yeah. In fact, often enough, you would hit the slip stream of an aircraft in front of you and you’d would drop easily four, six hundred feet like a brick because you’ve got no airflow over your wings with the turbulent air that you met in the slip stream, and that used to pin me against the roof of the canopy in no uncertain terms so, er, apart from the cursing [?] we got used to it.
JM1: [slight laugh] Did you ever have to land in very bad conditions?
JM2: Only once. We were diverted by fog to a fighter aerodrome. I forget what — North Weald I think it was — however, the short runway meant that it was a bit of a hairy do to get, to get it down on a short runway which our skipper was pretty good at and made a good job of it. Unfortunately, their ground crew did not know anything about Lancasters, so it fell to me to climb up the following morning, up into the cells. In each cell there’s a little calor gas pump which you have to prime the engine with before you try and start it, and in full flying gear I had to climb up on the main wheel and operate these things, using the bomb aimer as communication between me and the cockpit, and the ground crew with a starter [unclear] and that was a real sweaty job believe me. Up in the confines pumping this calor gas until we got the engines started. I think that was another time when Westie dropped me in it, maybe did it twice. So I had to do that in both the cells and I was sweating like a pig when I got back into the aircraft. But that was the only problem with landing in a different aerodrome, the short runway and having to do the mechanics myself, yeah.
JM1: As, as the tour progressed did, did you feel that you were more or less likely to complete the tour?
JM2: I don’t think we, I don’t think we thought about it really until the last four. When, when we’d done the thirty we thought, what shall I say? We, we were testing fate there a bit. We were pushing the boat out a bit but we were determined to finish as a crew so we, we carried on with the odd four but as I say which turned out to be a fatal decision.
JM1: Because members of the crew had not been able to do all the flights in sequence. One or two were injured or sick?
JM2: That’s right. As I said before our bomb — our, er, wireless operator picked up some shrapnel over the Walcheren Islands and he was in hospital at the time and we had the signals leader with us. It was his one hundredth operation and you can imagine his mind, mind when he had to bail out at that time, [slight cough] notwithstanding the fact we all had to do.
Jm1: Will you tell us about that last operation please?
Jm2: It’s, er — we were due to pick up which was known as a yellow tail, which had special Oboe equipment for, er, target finding, and this was supposed to be done over Lincoln. We were supposed to be number two in a vic of three with any loose aeroplanes fitting the box afterwards. The box formation was for fighter defence [slight cough] primarily but unfortunately we didn’t pick up a yellow tail over Lincoln and we had to settle for going in the box, which was unpleasant place to be really, and we continued to target in this way until on the run in to target we got [slight cough] caught by what was known as predictive flak. This is four guns controlled by radar, which fired a burst of four shells, and if we’d been able to manoeuvre it was fairly easy to avoid but because we weren’t able to manoeuvre — it’s usually about seven to nine seconds between bursts so if the first burst missed you you’ve got this moment in time to change the aircraft latitude, speed or location so that the next burst doesn’t find you where you should be. So, you get used to this system and its fairly easy to devoid, to avoid predictive flak, but we were stuck in the box and not able to move and it slowly crept up, as reported by the rear gunner, getting close and closer, until one shell went through the back of the aircraft, without exploding, fortunately enough, but took away the bunch of controls that lead to the rudders and elevators and part of the tail plane and made the aircraft virtually uncontrollable. At this point they were — it was decided with the damage so obvious that to turn away out of the stream and, er, as the bomb doors were still closed, the bomb aimer did — went through his jettison programme but it doesn’t matter because until the bomb doors are fully open the bomb aimer’s gear will not work for obvious reasons. If he dropped them with the doors closed it would tear the bottom of the aircraft out [slight cough]. So, it was my job to open the bomb doors and jettison the bomb because Westie already gone. He didn’t hang about. He’d gone.
Jm1: Went out through the front hatch?
JM2: Yes. He jettisoned the hatch and went out there and I went behind the pilot’s seat where my parachute was. We had clip-on parachutes. The, the skipper had a sit on parachute. He had a base parachute and he sits on his. So, as I went to get it out of the rack the, er, the navigator and the wireless operator went past me and out through the hatch and I [unclear] harness pin and I went through the hatch as well. And the skipper had apparently had — I met him later on in Dulag Luft, near Frankfurt, in — his fingernails were all torn where he was — the aircraft went into a vicious spin as soon as he let out the ailerons. That was the only control he had, was ailerons, and he went out through the top hatch but he had quite a struggle against the slip stream because it was pinning him to the fuselage with the increased speed. He must have been doing well over two hundred miles an hour, two-fifty miles an hour when he was trying to get out the hatch, which we didn’t have because we went out through the bottom hatch.
JM1: And the gunners went through the rear door didn’t they?
Jm2: Indeed. In fact, I heard them both say, ‘Rear gunner leaving.’ And, ‘Mid upper leaving.’ But funnily enough the mid upper, the, the rear gunner has no memory of leaving and wasn’t completely conscious until about 5 o’clock that night and yet I clearly heard him say, ‘Rear gunner leaving.’
JM1: And what height were you when you bailed out?
Jm2: We were twenty-two thousand [unclear] and I’d say we were between eighteen and twenty thousand or something like. It didn’t take very long.
JM1: No. When you came down tell us what happened when you landed please.
Jm2: I got my rigging lines a little bit crossed and I was trying to untangle the rigging lines and did so, managed to do so, and then I blacked out through lack of oxygen, lack of oxygen. I’d been without the oxygen for quite some time in the manoeuvring inside the aeroplane and I just blacked out through lack of oxygen and I didn’t come to until, oh, about four thousand, three thousand feet or so from the ground and I hit rather hard on a bunch of rubble and the Wehrmacht was waiting for me as a reception committee and I was a bit knocked about a bit and I came too really being frog-marched into a police station in Niebruch [?] and stuffed into an underground cell there.
JM1: Were the other members of your crew there?
JM2: No, on my own. We were widely separated because of the difference in bailing out.
Jm1: Right.
Jm2: [clears throat] I don’t know where the others landed although I must have been told when we met at up Dulag Luft. I can’t remember now.
JM1: How were you treated by the Wehrmacht?
JM2: The, er, the ordinary soldiers I think, I think they were a blessing in disguise because they kept the civilians away from us who were naturally a bit unchuffed about all this business. And, er, but I was put in a cell. They took my flying boots off me and put me in this bare board cell which was underground and, er, I didn’t have anything to eat for, er, quite some while. The following day the, er, sergeant of the police elected to interrogate me, by the simple means of sitting me in front of him at his desk, un-holstering his luger, sliding the [clears throat] breech back, pushing the safety catch off and pointing the barrel at me as he laid it on his desk, which felt a bit uncomfortable because I’ve fired a luger and know how hair trigger they are. So with him speaking German and me speaking English we didn’t get very far I must admit so we gave it up as a bad job and I went back in the cell. But, er, the following night I was moved from there to a Luftwaffe aerodrome on the back of a lorry and in the darkness [laugh] a voice said, ‘Have you got a fag, mate.’ Which I didn’t. The soldiers that picked me up took my wristwatch off me and pinched my cigarettes. I had a pack of cigarettes. They took the cigarettes out and put the cigarette case back in my pocket, surprisingly, but they pinched my cigarettes. I said, ‘No, I haven’t mate, sorry.’ But it turned out to be a Canadian gunner who’d gone down presumably nearby in the same raid. I said, ‘No I haven’t mate. I’m sorry.’ Anyway after a short journey through the all the rubble in the city. [unclear] used to clear a road through cities just to get transport through and they put me in this Luftwaffe transport base in a cell in, er, this ready room and whilst I was in there — I hadn’t had anything to eat for two days by then or drink — and one of the, er, Luftwaffe members, one of the ground crew saw me eyeing up his meal, er, two slices of bread and butter with molasses in. He saw me eyeing this up and he came over and give me [clears throat] half of it and this turned me really. It was the only kindness I ever saw off a German throughout me — in fact, it made me quite emotional, as I am now. He gave half his lunch to an enemy you might say, mm.
JM1: That’s quite something isn’t it?
JM2: It was for me, mm.
JM1: Yes and from there you went to Dulag Luft?
JM2: Yes. Frankfurt am Main for interrogation, er, ten days isolation, solitary confinement, in a ten by eight foot cell, which had a little window barred up, high up, and the only communication was a lever you had inside the inside wall which, when you turned it, dropped a signal out on the outside in the corridor to let the guard know that you wanted to come out for some reason or other. That’s the only communication you had with the outside world for ten days, apart from meals that were brought to you.
JM1: And you were interrogated again at Dulag Luft?
Jm2: Yeah. [slight laugh] The — I think there was a bit of smartness there because the — while I was being interrogated, the usual rank, name and number, and trying invoke information off you which I didn’t have much of any way. I didn’t have much to tell but what there was wasn’t worth telling so I didn’t bother. But during this, imagine I’m quite scruffy and dirty and unshaven and they brought in a young woman, a stenographer of some kind, to jot down the answers, all glammed up to the eyebrows, to make me feel as uncomfortable as possible, which it certainly did. [laugh] I felt a real scruffy object in front of this glamorous female. Yeah, a bit of psychological warfare there.
JM1: I, I’ve read that sometimes the interviewers, the interrogators, knew more about the squadron than you did. Did you get that?
JM2: They did. They told me who my flight was and who my flight commander was. Another psychological trick I would imagine but I was aware enough by then. I’d had a few meals and I didn’t respond to it. There’s no point. If you respond to it they pump you harder. You were told about this. The more you give away, the more they pump you, so you keep your mouth shut.
JM1: And where did you go from Dulag Luft please?
JM2: Stalag Luft VII in Upper Silesia, Poland. Quite chilly and that. It was December by then.
JM1: This was December 1944?
JM2: Yes.
JM1: Yes and what was it like in that camp?
JM2: A bit rough and ready. Food was the real problem. Food was always the main topic t of conversation in captivity because you never got enough of it and what the Germans doled out was pretty rough. Their sauerkraut was — I wouldn’t have give it to a dog but we’d have it. We ate it in most cases. We had what was known as pea soup and we used to separate the peas, and inside each pea there used to be a little tiny beetle, and we used to split the pea open and open the people [?] and get a little row of tiny beetles and we would save them while we scoffed the peas. Believe me this is quite true.
JM1: I believe you.
JM2: It’s hardly credible from a civilian point of view but beetle soup it became known as, yeah. Hunger was always the problem.
JM1: And Red Cross parcels?
JM2: Infrequent and, er, often we had to share one parcel between four or two and not, not, not — very few of them. In fact, there’s a record of them in here that, er, of the people who kept diaries. David’s done a log of the times that we’d done but it’s hardly worth bothering with now.
JM1: David is your son-in-law?
JM2: Yes. He is indeed. He’s the instigator of all this stuff except for the models. I brought the models in.
JM1: Were you concerned that your family should know that you were still alive?
JM2: That was another thing. They were allowed to write one letter, for the Red Cross gave us one air mail letter to write to our families, which I understand my mother never got for some reason or other, and from the telegram she got when I was posted missing she heard nothing from, for six months, almost the entire captivity period, except for a couple in Scotland, who had a, a fairly powerful short wave radio and they used to listen to the prisoners recorded by the Red Cross as being prisoners of war and my name was mentioned on one of these broadcasts, and they took the trouble to find out from the Air Force where my mother lived and informed her I was alive and well at that time, but for all that period she didn’t know whether I was alive or dead.
JM1: And what about camp entertainment? How did you spend your time?
JM2: [Laugh] Oh, er, we rigged up what was known as a, a pantomime for Christmas and called it “Pantomania” because we were all blokes in it and one amusing incident came out of that. We had a pirate scene and we organised a cannon, er, that was all papier-mâché and tubes of all sorts of things and at the back an elastic flap, which would propel a, a black ball of paper out the muzzle and this was coordinated with a flash of, um, magnesium. I don’t know where the hell they got the magnesium from. I’ve no idea. But they had it anyway. We used to get people working out. They used to pinch things all over the place. However, during the pantomime we turned this, the — they allowed us to run this pantomime provided a number of German officers could watch what was going on and, er, not allow anything what they didn’t like. [slight cough] However, we managed to turn this cannon in this scene, fire the ball of — black ball towards the audience with the flash, and this made the German officers jump up and quickly snatch their lugers out and start waving them about, wondering what the heck was going on. And it was only a black ball of paper but they stopped the show and it as quite some time until we persuaded them to let us get on with it. So that was an amusing incident that came out of it [slight laugh].
JM1: Was there any talk of escape at this stage in the war?
JM2: Well, they found a tunnel under the, er, under the stage where we were. It wasn’t much of a tunnel but they found it under the stage and there was a number of organisations in the camp, which I was never part of, that leant themselves towards this idea but nobody — it was too near the end of the war to chance anything particularly dangerous. I admired one chap, one particular at Colditz. They used to — they organised a playing field away from the castle, down below the castle heights. They managed to persuade the Germans to let them have a game of football because the quadrangle was too small at Colditz and they did this a number of times until somebody had the bright idea of pole vaulting over the wire fence that they surrounded this playing field with. And he took the sections of the pole vault down his trousers, assembled it on the playing field, and pole vaulted over the wire and made a home run home from that daring escape so late in the war, yeah. Incredible that, weren’t it? That was a record by the way.
JM1: Incredible. I get the impression the morale of RAF personnel was quite high in the camp?
Jm2: Yes, yes it was pretty good, yeah, I would, I would say so. The [laugh] one amusing incident came when we first went there, at Stalag Luft VII, we were on the same level as the sentries patrolling outside the wire but the various tunnels or starting tunnels that they did, we used to have to drop the soil out through our trouser legs on the walk around the edge of the camp, the periphery we had to, used to, walk round for exercise. They used to allow us so far away from the goon boxes, about fifty yards or so away, and the number — they, they took so much earth and we dropped so much earth through the bags in our trousers, walking round, that we found ourselves above the level of the sentries outside the wire. [laugh] Would you believe? [slight laugh]
JM1: Incredible.
JM2: Incredible. We didn’t realise this at first until we found ourselves looking down on the sentries walking round the wire.
JM1: Just before we move on, you’ve, you’ve mention a couple of phrases I think need clarifying. Goon boxes?
JM2: Ah, these were stationed every, I would say hundred yards or so, round the perimeter wire of the yard [?] and they stood up on stilts, about roughly fifteen feet or so above ground level, on a, on a narrowing tower. Each contained a searchlight and a machine gun and two serving officers, Wehrmacht officers, er, Wehrmacht personnel. So that, er, if you — there was a, a trip wire about fifty yards inside the main wire which you must not [emphasis] step over on fear of being shot at, night or day, and this searchlight was used at night to patrol this area at night, and you certainly would be shot at. In fact one person was shot at while I was there and he was killed. I think he went a bit mental and went scrambling up the wire and they shot him.
JM1: Now that’s different from the box that you were describing when you flew to the target. That’s a formation? An aircraft formation?
JM2: Yes. A vic, a three vic, an aircraft of three in a vic and the box at the back that we were in for the fighter protection.
JM1: So it’s an aircraft formation?
JM2: Yes.
JM1: And the yellow tail I think. Can you just explain that for the record please?
JM2: It was known as G-H bars [?]. Why? I have no idea. I don’t know what the latter stands for but the aircraft that carried yellow stripes on the rudder had this Oboe equipment which guided them to the target more accurately than anything up to that day.
JM1: So we’re dealing with navigation and target finding electronic equipment?
JM2: Yes.
JM1: So, can we turn now to the fact that you were one of those who was released and were on the Long March?
JM2: Yes. That was — we warned about this for some while, er, when we were doing the pantomime which was just before Christmas, but the Russians were, er, getting fairly close to the camp at this stage. By close I mean about fifty miles or so and the Germans were getting a bit edgy and it came out later that Hitler was pulling all POWs back towards Berlin, presumably to use them as some kind of hostages. But however, we were turned out once and then sent back into the billets, er, in January but then on, I think it was the 19th of January, at half past three in the morning, to start the march which was, turned out to be two hundred and ninety-seven kilometres in a snow bound country in Upper Silesia in Poland when Poland was experiencing the worst winter it had ever known. It was just a wasteland wherever you looked. The only indication of road that we were on was the telegraph wires that were on poles alongside the road to indicate where the road was that we were supposed to be on, often trudging through quite deep snow, which was trodden down by — I think there was about two thousand-odd of us on the march — but two thousand, two hundred and ninety-seven kilometres in twenty-one days, a hundred and eighty miles, which was quite a feat by people who were half-starved. In fact a lot of men died on that particular march.
Jm1: And where did you end up at?
Jm2: A place called Luckenwalde about fifteen kilometres south of Berlin and, er, we, we became in the middle of a shell swap between the Germans and the Russians at one time. In fact one, one Russian shell, presumably it was Russian, landed in our compound and exploded harmlessly, as it happened, but by this time the German guards had gone away from the camp and left the camp to us. They had retreated to their own lines, or whatever, and we were running the camp ourselves at that particular time. And, er, eventually these Russians came and mowed down the wire and said, ‘You’re free now.’ And liberated us and the following day put the wire up again and contained us, which was a bit of a [unclear] at the time as we had no contract, transport and we had nowhere to go so we just had to stay in camp until eventually the Americans stopped the Russians from crossing the Elbe back into their territory until the Russians allowed us [emphasis] to cross the Elbe back into American territory. Then the Americans sent lorries and picked us up and took us back to their territory.
JM1: And how did you get home from Germany?
JM2: We were flown from, er, Leipzig. They took us by lorry to Leipzig, to a German wireless school at the time, and then they flew us to Brussels in the courses [?] and then from there flew us home in Lancasters, eight at a time, back to England.
JM1: And that was your last flight in a Lancaster was it?
JM2: It was indeed, yes [slight laugh]. Not a very comfortable one on my side because I knew there was a little — we were strung along the aircraft, nose to tail, eight of us, to try a keep the centre of gravity in the aircraft, and I got myself near the wireless ops’ window because I knew there was a little window there I could look out. I was a crafty arse. And I was looking through this, timing the crossing and more or less from anybody who had a watch and I thought we should be seeing — and I saw the Seven Sisters in the distance and I said, a pal [?] said, ‘Pass it along. We can see Seven Sisters. We’re almost there.’ With that everyone had to have a look [slight laugh] and then about five minutes later the pilot sent the wireless operator back and said, ‘Tell the lads we can see Seven Sisters.’ [laugh] Oh, dear. This isn’t the end of the tale. When we came to Cosford we realised from the engine, well, all of us realised from the engine notes that we were in finals and the silence from the engine cooked, not knowing we were near touchdown, and we bounced along the runway like a ping pong ball. Oh lordie me, I forgot what — g-doing, g-doing, g-doing. I thought, ‘When are we going to finish this lot.’ You know. I don’t know how long but it seemed forever to me and finally we were rolling along comfortably [laugh] and the wireless op said, ‘I’ve come to tell you we’ve landed lads.’ Dear, oh dear. I don’t know who the pilot was, bless him.
Jm1: [laugh] So, once you got back you had some survivor’s leave?
JM2: Yes. Well, we had to go through all the uniform delousing and stuff like this that was going on and, er, what were we doing? We got a fortnights’ leave, yeah, and sent home. [laugh] I remember coming home with the kit on my back, a kit bag full of gear, all brand new gear, and it was night and I got home, knocked on my front door and my sister, pardon the — my sister came to the door and it was completely dark. It was still black at that time. It was about 9 o’clock at night. I said, ‘Have you got anything for the Red Cross?’ And she shouted back to my mother, ‘Have you anything?’ And my mother rushed out, pushed her to one side and grabbed hold of me [laugh]. She’d heard my voice. That was enough.
JM1: Did you stay in the RAF?
JM2: I was in till the following February. I was posted to the Isle of Man because I got married whilst I was in the Air Force and it was a compassionate posting, to, to Calvary at first and then finally to Jurby on the Isle of Man.
JM1: And did, did you maintain contact with your crew members in peacetime?
JM2: No. The only one I — well, two actually I saw. I was — we went from Calvary to Newcastle. They were changing the, er, position of the squadron, turning it into a teaching squadron, up at on the other side Newcastle and whilst we were up there they said to, to complete the complement they needed a fire engine for the aerodrome up at Newcastle and it was to be collected from a place called Witchord, Witchford. ‘Does anyone know where Witchford was?’ I said, ‘I know it. It was the next aerodrome to me in Mepal when I was operating there.’ And the flight said, ‘It would be you. Clever arse again.’ He said, ‘Well you’d better collect it.’ So I got the job of collecting it and it was a six wheel Fordson, painted in drab colours, and a water tank on the back and various things. Not a red fire engine but a Fordson and I went down and collected this thing and stayed with the family of the girl in Mepal overnight and ferried it up to Newcastle. But while I was on the way I somehow remembered the address of the navigator and I said —while I was on the way I stopped in Darlington and asked directions to this address. Unfortunately I didn’t know the number. I knew the road but I didn’t know the number and I knocked on a house and asked if anybody knew the Air Force officer and they did and gave me the number. I knocked at the door and Ray came to the door [laugh]. Oh, that was a good reunion, yeah. That was the first I’d seen him since Dulag Luft in Frankfurt and we had a good natter there and I carried on up to Newcastle. The other time was when I was working for Cravens in Civvy Street and I went back to Mepal. I hired a car and I wanted to, er, see if the rear gunner still lived in Thatchford, so I went to Thatchford with this hired car and called in the local pub and asked, ‘Does anyone know Charlie Anderton. He was my rear?’ He said, ‘If you’re lucky you might catch him. He’s just left.’ And I saw the back of him disappearing on a bike over a field so that’s all I saw of Charlie Anderton, yeah. I did see him but I didn’t meet him, no.
JM1: When you look back on those times how, how do you feel about what you went through and how Bomber Command was treated politically?
JM2: I think you tend to forget the nasty times. You seem to get a mental block at them. As I say, sometimes during the dark hours it seems like yesterday and then it gets a bit hairy. But, um, you tend to block this out I think during normal life. We were only very young, as I say, and the young are adaptable and, er, it’s over seventy years ago. It’s a long while ago.
JM1: Jim, thank you so much. You’ve given a marvellous interview. Thank you for your detail and clarity and information and emotion.
JM2: Thank you for listening. It’s a very ordinary tale I feel.
JM1: Not at all.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Mulhall. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMulhallJE160823
Format
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01:04:05 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James was born in Gorton, attended Catholic schools, and became an apprentice plumber. In November 1942 he joined the Royal Air Force. He then trained as a mechanic at RAF St Athan before being posted to RAF Henlow to assemble Hurricanes. He then went back to RAF St Athan to re-muster as a flight engineer. His next postings where at RAF Stradishall on Stirlings, which he thought were awful aircraft, and at RAF Feltwell on Lancasters. His crew was posted to 75 Squadron, serving at RAF Mepal where there were sometimes two full crews in a single Nissen hut. The crew’s first operation was a daylight operation to the U-Boat pens at St. Nazaire. On a run to Russelsheim they were coned and blinded by searchlights but managed to escape them with little damage. James said most of the flights were just enduring the cold and getting back as safely as possible. He elaborates on service conditions on board, recollecting instances of incendiaries hitting their aircraft. After completing the thirty operations (among them nine or ten daylight ones) the crew decided to do a final four together which proved to be a fatal decision. Those who bailed out ended up at Dulag Luft for interrogation. James was then moved to Stalag Luft VII in Poland in December 1944. He describes the conditions, food and treatment in the camps. James was in the long march which ended at Luckenwalde when they escaped. Prisoners were taken to Leipzig before being flown to Brussels and then home. James left the RAF in February 1946.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
France
Germany
Poland
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Oberursel
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Poland--Tychowo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1942-10
1943
1944
1944-12
1945
1946
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
75 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bomb struck
bombing
crewing up
Dulag Luft
entertainment
escaping
fear
flight engineer
Hurricane
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
Nissen hut
Oboe
prisoner of war
RAF Feltwell
RAF Henlow
RAF Mepal
RAF St Athan
RAF Stradishall
searchlight
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
Stirling
submarine
the long march
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1321/20095/PLatimerJF1903.1.jpg
5c4fa4c3f15f857cd59311650ec10fee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1321/20095/ALatimerJF190928.1.mp3
00322638009f1409521f729c53768fda
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Latimer, James Ferguson
J F Latimer
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Jim Latimer (1923 - 2020, 1551478 Royal Air Force) his log book, and photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 102 and 462 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-09-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Latimer, JF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: Here we go. Right.
GBD: Ok, Jim.
JL: Yeah.
BW: This Is Brian Wright interviewing Warrant Officer Jim Latimer.
JL: Jim’s Ferguson Latimer.
BW: Jim Ferguson Latimer.
JL: Thank you.
BW: On Saturday 28th September 2019 at approximately 4.45 at his home in Salford.
GBD: Prestwich, Manchester.
BW: Prestwich.
GBD: Yeah.
BW: Manchester. Also with me are his friend Gary Bridson-Daley, and World War Two author, and Jim’s wife Joan. And Gary, you wanted to introduce, introduce Jim as well.
GBD: Yeah. Just for a little minute. I’m very privileged to know Jim Latimer and Jean Latimer and they are from the same church as myself. They’re the longest parishioners there. Over seventy years they’ve been there which is quite astounding. I’m Gary Bridson-Daley author of, “A Debt of Gratitude to the Last Heroes.” And as part of my Debt of Gratitude Project going throughout the UK interviewing some of the last World War Two veterans I’ve been blessed to have interviewed over one hundred veterans from all services and backgrounds now of which Jim is one of them and is in that first book.
JFL: A fair amount isn’t it?
GBD: It’s not bad is it, Jim. Eh? Yeah.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: It’s great.
JFL: You’ve interviewed a lot of guys.
GBD: And ladies too. Yes.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: And it’s been an absolute honour and privilege to do so. It’s also a great thing to be able to help the IBCC with, with introducing veterans such as I have done today and Jim now, to help with their fantastic work. And anything we can always do to help people that are doing things for our veterans and to capture these precious stories for posterity and for the future and for the country and generations yet to come is a great thing, and I’m very honoured to be a part of it in my project and in helping others with theirs. So I’m going to hand over to Jim Latimer who was Halifax bombers, forty six missions. Bomb aimer. And now handing over for the interview to be done with Brian. And I just wanted to have a little, little part of that. Just —
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: Because it’s so special and they’re such good friends. That’s it. Well, thank you. Brian, over to you. Jim, enjoy the interview.
JFL: Yeah. Ok, Brian.
BW: Ok, Jim. Just to start off for us could you give us your full name, date of birth and service number please?
JFL: Yeah. It’s James Ferguson Latimer. What’s the next one?
BW: Date of birth.
JFL: Oh yeah. 21 12 ’23.
BW: And do you recall your service number at all?
JFL: Yeah. 1551478.
BW: Great. Thank you. And where were you born Jim?
JFL: I was actually born in Scotland.
JL: Edinburgh.
BW: And how many people were in your family? I mean obviously mum and dad?
JFL: Yeah.
BW: But any brothers and sisters?
JFL: There was two brothers. One came, another brother came later but one.
JL: Who are you talking about?
JFL: We emigrated. Well, I was only a tot of four or five years old and my parents emigrated to Toronto in Canada. Ontario. My dad had a good job over there.
BW: What did he do?
JFL: He worked on tall buildings. I don’t know what, exactly what was, I don’t know what his trade or profession was or anything like that.
JL: Sheet metal.
JFL: It was what?
JL: Sheet metal worker.
JFL: Yeah. That’s what he was originally. Sheet metal worker but there was a lot of building. Skyscrapers going up in Toronto at the time which was way back in the 20s. And he had a good job out there. That was the reason for emigration. There wasn’t much in Scotland where they originally came from. So they wanted to emigrate which is what they did.
BW: So there was you and two brothers.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Any sisters? Or did they come later?
JFL: No sisters. No.
BW: And where did you go to school out there?
JFL: In the York township which is just north of Toronto.
BW: And when did you leave school? It was common in the UK for people to leave school at fourteen but what happened with you?
JFL: I think I was fifteen when I left High School and when the [pause] when the war started, or it was just before the war started it was obvious there was going to be a war with, with what was going on with Hitler and our Prime Minister here. My parents decided to come back to, well they came back to England. So the war had just started I think when we came back to Great Britain.
BW: And did you look for work or were you working at that, at that time when you came back? Or did you continue in education or anything?
JFL: I was still at, still going to school then at that time. I can’t remember how old I was.
BW: Do you recall whereabout you moved to?
JFL: I was —
BW: Did you, did you come to the north west of the UK at all or were you elsewhere in the country? Where did your dad and the family settle?
JFL: Came from Edinburgh because my parents originally came from Edinburgh, and then went over to Canada and my dad had a job at Toronto. I was at school. My brothers were at school, and I was, I went to High School. I did five years in high school which is like, I don’t know the equivalent in England. Grammar School. Something like that. And then the war, the war with Hitler you can, it was on the cards there was going to be a war. So for some reason or other, I don’t know why, my parents wanted to come back to Scotland and I wasn’t, I wasn’t very old then, and I had to had two brothers at the time. And the war started and we came back with the war being on. German subs were having a ball out there. Torpedoed a lot, an awful lot of merchant, merchant ships. I always remember I was only, I can’t remember, nine or ten on the ship on my way back to the British Isles, and I went up on the deck with my brother just looking at the Atlantic Ocean if you like and this, this ship passed on its way to either the States or Canada and they only got as far as the horizon. We were stood watching it. It was torpedoed. It just blew up. So all the poor guys on it they never had a chance. A U-boat obviously torpedoed it. And then —
BW: Was it a civilian ship?
JFL: I don’t really know at the time. It was, it could have been a passenger ship that passed us but it might just have been a merchant ship. Difficult to know. But it just got to the sky line. The next thing the sun, the sun had gone down and it just lit up the sky with being torpedoed. Poor guys.
BW: And from living in Edinburgh what prompted you to join the RAF? Were you minded to join any other service or was it specifically the RAF you wanted?
JFL: I’m just trying to think now. Yeah. I joined, I joined the Air Force here in Manchester. I was at Heaton Park. That’s where [pause] young guys from all over the world came to Heaton Park. If they were in bomber, if they were going to be in Bomber Command, you know. They came from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. They all came to Heaton Park. So I was at Heaton Park there for a while waiting to be sent out to whatever flying base was available. And —
BW: And was that for your basic training?
JFL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did quite a bit of basic training.
BW: And when did you move to your sort of trade training to become a bomb aimer?
JFL: A bit vague. A bit vague on it. I was aircrew for a start so I don’t know why or, why or how I became an air bomber but that’s what I did.
BW: I believe you trained initially on Wellington bombers.
JFL: Yeah. Originally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We went even, the Germans had occupied France so we were, we flew. Started off with Wellingtons. We used to fly over France. And when we were bombing armament factories in France because the Germans had taken over. That’s how I started with flying. And then later on went on to Halifaxes. Big planes. And —
BW: What do you recall of the Wellingtons? What were they, what were they like?
JFL: Well, they were alright. Two engines. They were a bit, eventually a bit obsolete. It was all four engines. So that’s where, where we got to. So the, it was four engined going over Germany.
BW: And your first mission. Your first operation was as you say over occupied France but —
JFL: Yeah.
BW: I wanted to ask a bit about your time while you were at the base in Yorkshire. At Pocklington.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Because you joined 102 Squadron.
JFL: That’s right. Yeah.
BW: Now, there’s, you said you were starting on Halifaxes at this time.
JFL: That’s right yeah because of the —
BW: Can you recall the names of the other members of the crew? The pilot and —
JFL: I can’t remember them now offhand.
BW: Your pilot was Flight Sergeant Mitchell.
JFL: Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. But the, the two gunners. The two gunners I can’t remember. One was Scottish. The other guy was, I think he was from South Africa. A lot of them came over from different parts of the world to join up.
BW: If I read some of the names of the crew would you recognise or know anything about them? William McCorkindale.
JFL: Yeah. He was the engineer I think. Little Scottish guy.
BW: And RW Scott.
JFL: I’m sorry?
BW: RW Scott. Flight Sergeant Scott.
JFL: No. I can’t.
BW: No.
JFL: Oh, Scott. I vaguely remember him but I’m not sure. No.
BW: Mitchell was your pilot.
JFL: That’s right. Yeah.
BW: Maguire.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Who, where was Maguire in the aircraft?
JFL: Sorry?
BW: Where was Maguire in the aircraft?
JFL: I think he was the rear gunner I think.
BW: And Flight Sergeant Thornton?
JFL: What was that again?
BW: Flight Sergeant Thornton. AF Thornton.
JFL: I’m not quite sure now.
BW: And the other was Kellard. Sergeant Kellard.
JFL: Yeah. I can’t remember the names now.
BW: Ok. Do you recall how you met each other? Normally you’d be left alone to sort of crew up they called it. Do you remember how you met your other crewmates?
JFL: I’m a bit vague on it. [pause] We were stationed at Heaton Park. That’s where, from the British Empire they all, they all came to Heaton Park from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. This is where they ended up. And from, from there then they were sent to different airfields eventually. And the airfield I was sent to was, I can’t remember the name of it now. It was in the Midlands. England. And we were on Wellingtons. The two engine Wellingtons. And we did quite a few ops there. Mainly over France. Germany had occupied France then and there was a lot of munitions workers in the south east of France and that, that was our target. So that’s what I was on to start off with. And then from there we graduated to [pause] that was, those were Wellingtons. Yeah. Then I was on Halifaxes then. Four engine bomber.
BW: What were they like to fly in as crew? How did you find it? Was it, was it pretty cramped?
JFL: Cramped? No. No. No, there was plenty of room. It was alright. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: I’m going to show you a couple of pictures. One is of a Halifax, and the other is of crew positions inside.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: And just see if these prompt any recollections for you.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: The one you’ve got in your left hand of the crew position. That’s the flight engineer.
JFL: Oh.
BW: And then underneath that will be the bomb aimer’s position in the front of the aircraft.
JFL: Yeah. Which is —
BW: Does that —
JFL: Which is the front? I can’t make it out [pause] Well, when we, when we got to within a mile of the target I had to go down to the nose of the aircraft, lie down flat and the bombsight had a few figures in it. We had to adjust the bomb sight and then when we got within a mile going near into the city we had to fly straight and level and it would probably sorry [noise] very slow. The speed, the speed was slowed right down in order to get to the target to make sure the bombs were in the right position. So when we got to within so many, a mile perhaps from the target the bomb, the bomb aimer or the air bomber he was called, the bomb aimer he took over. Guiding. He was guiding the plane then so he was telling the pilot, ‘Left. Left. Right. Right.’ whatever, to get, get the bomb, the bombsight so that it was directly in front of the target. And then when you got the bombsight steady at all you could visualise it. You could see that from the nose of the plane and once you got just before, just before the target you dropped your bombs. So as they were going down they were going that way as well and they hit the target hopefully. And then I always said, ‘Bombs gone. Let’s go.’ The pilot turned around and off we went back.
BW: You had to keep the aircraft straight and level.
JFL: Oh, very straight. Yeah. For a mile or so.
BW: Yeah. After you’d dropped the bombs.
JFL: Going on to the target. Yeah. Yeah. A Lot of anti-aircraft coming up as well. An awful lot. We were peppered with anti-aircraft. And I saw two or three of our own bombers, Fokke Wolf 190s, you know the German fighter planes, they were swarming around and I saw, I always remember two or three of our bombers were shot down. I saw them going down, and in one of them I think, a guy, a guy I was very friendly with and I saw him going down to be killed. Crashed. I always remember that. I knew it was. I could see which plane it was. It was a Halifax and he was in it. That was the end of him.
BW: Did you see any parachutes at all?
JFL: Oh yeah. The odd one or two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: That particular raid would have been detailed. That particular raid was to Braunschweig and that was in August.
JFL: Where was it?
BW: Braunschweig [pause] It was in August 1944.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: And it was a night raid.
JFL: Yeah. Well, most, most of them were night raids. Yeah. Of course —
BW: The, there were two sergeants in the aircraft you described who were killed. One whose name was Craig and the other Curphey. Do you know which of those two might have been your mate?
JFL: I’m not sure now. Very vague about it.
BW: Ok. I’m going to show you a diagram of the bomb aimer’s position in a Halifax. Does that bring back any memories?
[pause]
BW: It shows the position that you would have been in in the aircraft.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: You say laid down and looking out the Perspex nose.
JFL: Is the Perspex still here?
BW: Yes.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: And your control panel was on the left.
JFL: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. So you used to lie down there actually ‘til a mile or so from the target. The air bomber more or less took over the plane. Guiding, guiding the pilot with, ‘Left. Left. Right. Left.’ Whatever. To make sure he was right on the target.
BW: Did you ever feel particularly vulnerable in that sort of position because you’re laid down, head practically out of the aircraft apart from the Perspex canopy in front? How, how did it feel to be in that position over a target?
JFL: Yeah. It did. Actually, it never, it never bothered me. I don’t know why. Used to be, you were busy guiding. Guiding the plane in to make sure you’re getting it right. ‘Left. Right.’ You just tell, tell the pilot move over to the left a bit or move over to the right a bit until you’re right over the target. And then just before you hit the target it’s bombs away, and you used to follow them right down. And nine times out of ten they hit the target. Mostly coastal targets. There was a lot of coastal targets. And then eventually it became routine.
BW: Did you ever have to tell the pilot to go around again to make a second run? Perhaps because there was smoke over the target or obscuring it. Did you have to make a second run at all?
JFL: No. I don’t think I ever had to do that. No. No. No. By then there was a lot of German fighters trying to get at us. They were all hovering all around. They did get quite a few but some of us were lucky.
BW: And could you see [pause] could you see the fighters around you? Could you make them out?
JFL: The German fighters?
BW: Yeah.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Or were you just able to see the gunfire?
JFL: No, I could see. Could see the fighters.
BW: And —
JFL: And once we’d dropped the bombs it was a case of turn around, put the nose down and get away. Get as much speed as you could to get away. Then we had, the rear gunner was very good. The mid-upper gunner was also very good. And you could see the German fighters trying to get a bead on us but our own, our own bombers, the machine gunners they kept them, kept the German planes off as much as they could. I did see one or two of our own boys going down. One, one bomber plane that went down, one of the guys in it was a friend. A good friend of mine. And I could see him, I couldn’t see him but he was in it and that was the end of him.
BW: Could you see the searchlights at all? Were you, were you ever actually what they called coned in searchlights? Were you picked out at all and locked on?
JFL: Yeah, you could. There were, there were plenty of searchlights from the Germans. They had encampments with machine guns and bomber guns and anti-aircraft guns and they were usually lit up. They didn’t do a lot of damage but they sent up enough to catch, used to be a lot of holes in the plane. Fortunately, didn’t get to the right place for them.
BW: And the searchlights were coloured differently. Did you see any blue searchlights at all?
JFL: Any — ?
BW: Blue searchlights.
JFL: Blue?
BW: Yeah.
JFL: I can’t remember to tell you the truth. I remember lots of searchlights but I don’t know about blue searchlights.
BW: The gunners would occasionally if they saw a light coming towards them or a fighter coming towards them would instruct the pilot to take evasive action or corkscrew. Did that ever happen with you?
JFL: I’ve no recollection of that. No. Not really.
BW: So you were quite lucky that you never got properly bounced by fighters.
JFL: Yeah. I could see fighters. Not, most, most of the, it was mostly night flying. We did go on to daylight flying again when the invasion took place with the Yanks invading the French coast to get the, to make a start on getting the Germans out. And we did a lot of, we used to go low flying over the, over the Channel but then zoom up and bomb the German army. It was all daylight because the Yanks, the Yanks and the Canadians and the British were all on their way over the English Channel to get rid of the Germans. They suffered. They suffered a lot of damage then too. Our job was to bomb the German guns. The big guns up on the cliffs which is what we did.
BW: And when you were low flying over France on the way in to the target during the daylight. Do you recall much of what you could see? Whether there were any vehicles or movements on the ground or anything like that?
JFL: On the Channel?
BW: On the French mainland.
JFL: Oh, the French coast.
BW: On the French mainland when you approached the target what kind of things could you see?
JFL: Well, the Germans were, they were retreating. You could see that, and you could see the, the Yanks and the Canadians coming over on small, small boats to attack the Germans on, on the beaches. We could see all that. Then of course we had to, we got so far we used to climb right up because they had a lot of big heavy guns at the top of the hills and they were causing damage so we went up quite high. Came down to bomb them to knock their guns out. And that’s how it was.
BW: You were also as a air bomber or bomb aimer as they called them.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: To and from the target you’d also be manning the front guns wouldn’t you?
JFL: I’m sorry?
BW: You would also be manning the front gun wouldn’t you? The nose gun.
JFL: Yeah. I could. Yeah, they did that too. Yeah. Used to use that. Yeah.
BW: And did you ever have cause to use it on the way in? Keep a fighter away or anything like that?
JFL: Not, not so much because we had a mid-upper gunner and a rear gunner of course so they did most of the shooting against the enemy.
BW: So most of your ops were over occupied France, and there were a number into Germany.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Would you say there was a noticeable difference between your targets in France and those in Germany?
[pause]
JFL: Well, the ones in France they were very, very military but when we went, when we flew to Germany there was a different sections of cities we had to bomb. A lot along the North Sea and mainly military targets. But that’s how it was.
BW: And were they quite long missions for you?
JFL: The night missions were very long. They were very long. And of course then it all changed when the Yanks came over. We did all daylight missions. And we, as the Germans were retreating we were flying during the day, bombing the Germans as, as they tried to get back to their own country. And there was pockets of British soldiers and Yankee soldiers that, they got cut off by the Germans. They were in big trouble and we were, had to go out to help them. I remember that. So —
BW: And were you bombing enemy troops?
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Fairly close to where the Allied lines were or —
JFL: That’s right. Yeah. Not far off. Yeah.
BW: And did, were you able to see the bombs land accurately?
JFL: Oh yes. We were quite low. Yeah.
BW: What sort of height would you think you were at?
JFL: Oh dear [pause] A thousand feet [pause] Over. Quite, quite low we were because we were. Yeah.
BW: And were there a lot of aircraft on those sorts of raids or was it just like a small number of aircraft from the squadron?
JFL: Yeah. There wasn’t a lot of raids. Not a lot of raids flying in it but as the Germans retreated we kept going in and, to try and stop them from getting back to their own Maginot, not the Maginot, that’s a French line, getting back to their own line. So we had to keep intercepting them and they had heavy guns all the way around everywhere they were and they did a bit of damage with those. But we got rid of a lot of the guns that the Germans were using, because the Yanks and the British Army and Canadian Army they were all coming in now to fight their way to the Maginot Line. And we helped out on that.
BW: So, on those sorts of raids I believe you flew on a couple of times in larger raids with Americans. A combined sort of RAF and American type raid. Did you see any difference in the way the Americans flew?
JFL: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Sitting ducks. That’s how you can describe them. Sitting ducks. They flew in a straight line and they didn’t, they didn’t do any manoeuvring. Just kept flying straight. And the German fighters they had a, took a lot of, took a lot of the Americans down with the [pause] We flew individually. We didn’t fly as a squadron. We flew in between different heights. But the Americans came in perfect they were but they never, never altered their position and the German fighters really tore in to them. An awful lot of Yanks shot down.
BW: So the looser formation that the RAF used allowed them greater manoeuvrability if you were attacked, whereas the Americans —
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Didn’t do that.
JFL: They didn’t have that. Yeah. Of course when we flew at night we didn’t fly as, we flew individually in the dark. The British Air Force. The Americans when they, when they started night flying they flew as a squadron and they were easy targets for the German fighters.
BW: And when you got back to base what kind of things happened then? What sort of things would happen on the way back from the targets and then landing?
JFL: Well, you got, you’ve still got the German fighters chasing you, trying to get a bead on to you. I remember the very first op we were on. We were up and down all the way back so this particular German fighter he chased us all the way back to the Channel, the English Channel. And we had to manoeuvre up and down just to keep him, so that he couldn’t get a sight on us and as we got within half a mile of the Channel he gave up on it and turned around and went back to Germany, thank goodness. But —
BW: So you were chased all the way home.
JFL: Yeah. I was. Yeah. Yeah. We were quite, this was what we were doing all the way back so he couldn’t get a sight on us.
BW: And when you eventually did land what kind of things would happen then?
JFL: When we landed, when we got out the plane and came over to, the CO was there and there would be, we were interviewed for, they wanted to know what happened and the medical officer was on site in case anybody was, anybody was hurt. And the —
BW: And what were the debriefings like? Did they give you a good interrogation about what you’d seen?
JFL: Yeah. A debriefing. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. They wanted to know various things. How it went and what happened. And the man with a collar. He was always there for, we had to, we had to have a prayer for safe landing. He gave us a prayer. We were very, very lucky I think. Very lucky.
BW: When you got back to your billets were you accommodated as crews altogether, or were you kept as say bomb aimers in one hut and flight engineers in another hut or did you all stay together as a crew?
JFL: We were more or less as a crew. Yeah. Yeah. Well, most, most of the, most of the flights up until the invasion when the Yanks came it was all night flying and we used to get back about 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning. And by then of course we were very tired. So after being interviewed by [pause] whoever we went to bed.
BW: Did you ever get a chance to socialise much as a crew? Were there events on at the base and dances and things?
JFL: Yeah. There was the odd one or two dances. Yeah. But unfortunately I had two left feet. At the time. My wife was a very good dancer so eventually when I became a civilian I picked up on the dancing and I did alright but during the war we used to, there was always dances going on and we used to go and mainly just stood there looking at them and watching it. That’s all.
BW: And you flew a few raids with 102 Squadron, and then you were transferred to 462 Squadron.
JFL: Yeah. That sounds about, yeah 462.
BW: And there was one of those where, one of those sorties or ops where you came back and the aircraft went off the runway.
JFL: Yes. It left. It left the runway [laughs]
BW: Was this on, was this on landing?
JFL: The brakes. I think the brakes must have gone. The brakes went on it so we left the runway at, we were doing almost a hundred miles an hour when we left the runway and we went over quite a few fields bumpety bumpety bumpety. And eventually when the pilot, he was, he’d given up. It was too much for him. So I was sat beside him. I just kept the plane straight and then —
BW: So the pilot bottled it and you took over the controls.
JFL: Yeah. Well, just I was steering it. Yeah. Yeah. And then when we got to, over two or three fields I turned the plane around and it stopped dead because we didn’t know what was going to happen otherwise because it was still moving at a good pace. Anyway, I pulled the wheel around and it stopped. And that was it. And then the fire, the fire people came over to make sure the plane wasn’t on fire.
BW: I mean if it’s gone over two or three fields.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Off the end of the runway. That’s some fair distance.
JFL: Yeah. It was a fair distance. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Did you still have any bombs on board or anything like that?
JFL: No. We had, I don’t think we had anything on board. I think we got rid of everything. Yeah.
BW: Because there was an instance in your logbook where you noted that you were loaded with the bombs on board. Landed with the bomb load. But obviously not on that occasion.
JFL: Yeah. I’m trying to remember. I know [pause] One. We were over Germany but we’d bombed the target, but one of the bombs was, was hung up. It hadn’t dropped and it was on the plane with us and of course you daren’t land with it. It would have blown us all up. So Joe, I climbed, I climbed down and got outside the plane, turned the trap door and I was outside. I managed to release the bomb and it went down and it landed. I could see where it landed. I was outside the plane and I could see where the bomb landed. Right in a German village. That wasn’t very nice. We couldn’t have landed with the bomb because it would have exploded, exploded on landing. We had to get rid of it. And the engineer, our engineer he wouldn’t go and do it. He should have done it really. It was his job. But he wasn’t going outside the plane to do it. I was at a high field so I never gave it a thought. I said, ‘I’ll go down.’ I went down, got through the trap door, I was outside and —
BW: This was in the bomb bay though wasn’t it with the bomb bay open?
JFL: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
JFL: Yeah. I managed to release the bomb. I can’t remember the details now and I followed it down and it, there was like a German village. It must have blown an awful lot of houses up. It was quite a big bomb. So I climbed back up again.
BW: And that’s, that must have been, I’m assuming that, that was after the target and this particular bomb had not released. So you’re still over Germany heading on the way home.
JFL: That’s right.
BW: That’s when you had to go down into the bomb bay.
JFL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: To sort this out.
JFL: Yeah. There was just this one bomb. I can’t remember how we knew. But we all knew we had to get rid of it. We couldn’t, we couldn’t land.
BW: And from moving from 462 Squadron you then went up to Leuchars in Scotland.
JFL: That’s right. Yeah.
BW: To join [pause] the Air Sea Rescue Unit there. Is that right?
JFL: That’s right. Just for a short period. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And what do you, what do you recall of that? That period.
JFL: Not a lot really because it was very peaceful.
BW: It would be quite a change from where you had been before.
JFL: We went, there was two or three of us. We went out with the Air Sea Rescue Teams, and we were flying around, not flying, moving around the North Sea. And we didn’t have any incidents that I can recall.
BW: So how did you then come to leave the RAF?
JFL: Leave?
BW: Yeah. You left in 1946.
JFL: Yeah. That’s right.
BW: Were you just demobbed or were you offered the chance to stay in?
JFL: I think we may have been but there was also demobbing, so I think I’d had enough for four or five years. I can’t remember how. So I was very fortunate.
BW: So when, do you recall how you met Jean? Your wife. Was that during the war or was it after?
JFL: No. It was during the war. All aircrew from all over the world — Australia, everywhere, south, South Africa. They all came to Heaton, Heaton Park. Aircrew. Potential aircrew. And that’s where of course I was. Heaton Park. And this friend I had made, he was, he was just walking down to what they called Sedgley Park. That’s not far from here. He was billeted in this particular house. They’d taken over a lot of houses and they had to let [pause] let them, give them up, they had to give them a bedroom. They’d no choice. The house keeper. I just said I’d walk, walk down with him for a walk and the, when we got to the house which wasn’t, not that far, there’s the daughter of the person from the house she came out. She was speaking. She had already met him because he was, he was billeted in their house. And the next thing I know this other girl came along and she was a friend of this first girl. And it was Jean. Do you remember Jean?
BW: And so —
JFL: She doesn’t remember.
BW: You married I believe in, I believe you married in 1948.
JFL: I think so. Yeah.
BW: And what, what other occupations did you have after, after the war?
JFL: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t trained for anything. I bought the, there was a [pause] it was a shop and it sold magazines, books, cigarettes, that type of shop it was.
JL: Yeah. Like [unclear]
JFL: Sorry
JL: Do you remember?
JFL: What?
JL: The newspaper. The wholesaler.
JFL: Jean. Jean’s father, who was a business man he, he bought the good will of the shop for me. Which was very very nice. He was a [pause] he had a biscuit factory.
BW: And he had a biscuit factory in —
JFL: He did. Yeah. In Manchester.
BW: Yeah.
JFL: He was a very clever guy. Yeah. He built all his own machinery for making biscuits. He did. He did it all. And he did, he was quite wealthy. And he got me started on the retail shop and I had that type of business ever since.
BW: And how long were you in the retail trade for?
JFL: I’ve got a, it must have been, I was in my seventies when I gave it up. I never had a trade.
BW: And now that we’re looking at commemorations for aircrew of Bomber Command how do you think that’s been. Is it something you welcome?
JFL: What was that?
BW: Now that we’re having the commemorations for Bomber Command and such like and there are now Memorials and such like being built to them how do you, how do you feel about that?
JFL: Yeah. I think I quite like that. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: I suppose it’s about time really isn’t it?
JFL: Sorry?
BW: I suppose it’s about time.
JFL: It’s —?
BW: It’s about time.
JFL: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s my logbook over there is it?
BW: Yeah.
JFL: Yeah. I thought I’d brought it in for you.
BW: Well, what I’ll do is I’ll end the interview there and I’ll look to photograph your logbook as well.
JFL: Right.
BW: But I just want to say that, you know on behalf of the Bomber Command Centre to thank you very much for your time and for your recollections. It’s been great to interview you.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: And very helpful for the Centre so thank you.
JFL: Oh, you’re welcome. Yeah.
[recording paused]
JFL: Ontario. About fifty miles from Toronto. That’s right. I come from Toronto.
GBD: Ok. Yeah.
JFL: And that’s where we did the flying.
JL: You went to Jasper Park.
JFL: Sorry?
JL: That’s where you trained. That’s where you trained [unclear] carry on.
GBD: You trained at Jasper Park.
JFL: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GBD: You won a special award for accurate bomb aiming. You were given an award for accurate bomb aiming.
JFL: Yeah. I got something for bombing. Yeah. I tried, I tried to go solo to be a pilot but yeah, they were very fussy about it.
BW: So you originally wanted to be a pilot.
JFL: Yeah. That’s what I asked for. So what I’d be, while I was being trained I didn’t quite make the grade for being a pilot. I went solo once. That was very brave of me [laughs] going solo. I managed to land a Tiger Moth.
GBD: Right. That’s good.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: Which places do you remember on your bombing missions over Europe by name? Which, off the top of your head which bases can you remember flying to on operations?
JFL: Oh. The German city on the [pause] it’s, it was a coastal town.
BW: Kiel.
JFL: Kiel. You got it in one. Yeah. I think so. Did a lot of bombs there. A lot of bombing.
GBD: And I remember you told me as well that you were bombing in the Villers-Bocage in France.
JFL: Pardon?
GBD: The Villers-Bocage in France.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: When the, when the allied troops were pinned down by the Germans in the battle of the hedgerows around there.
JFL: Oh yeah. That’s right.
GBD: You guys were sent to bomb Villers-Bocage as well.
JFL: Yeah. Yeah. Then we had to stop the, when the German army was in retreat, when the allies, the Yanks and the Canadians invaded across the Channel they eventually pushed the Germans back so it was our job to stop them. Stop the German army from getting to the bridge before they could all go over. Then they would have blown the bridge up and we couldn’t have got at them so we had to stop them doing that. Which we did do.
GBD: Because you were active around Falaise as well I think I remember you saying. Around Falaise Gap as the German armies are trying to escape out there.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: You hit them very heavily there as well.
JFL: Yeah. A bit vague.
BW: Can you remember any other places at all where you saw action? Anywhere by name that might be of interest to anyone listening.
JFL: Well, I did a lot of night bombing of course. That’s what I did that for two or three years. Night bombing.
JL: Do you know, Guy —
GBD: Hmmn?
JL: We ended up with five shops.
BW: I’m going to show you this picture of a bomb aimer. Does that look like the sort of position and place in the aircraft you’d be? Does anything about that jog your memory?
JFL: Is it, is it the nose of the aircraft and he’s lying down?
GBD: Do you want to borrow these?
JFL: No [laughs] it’s alright.
GBD: Are you sure?
JFL: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: You’ve got your instrument panel, your control panel to one side, and the bomb release button in the other.
JFL: Yeah. Well, the release button was there. When we got, when I got in the nose of the plane and it was all set up. It was quite sophisticated as well. Very accurate. I remember something about this. I’m not sure what it was now.
GBD: Does that look like the position you were in though when you were — does that look similar to the position you were in?
JFL: Yeah. It was lying flat.
GBD: Right.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Because it was said that the bombing was often inaccurate. But from your recollections and what you’re saying is that the equipment you had and from what you could see the bombing was accurate.
JFL: Oh, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Because just had to, well once you got down you got down a mile or so from the target. You got on to your stomach and you were lying flat and you were just telling, telling the pilot to go, ‘Left. Right.’ Whatever. Port. Starboard. Steady. And you’d just got to go steady until you got the what do you call it?
BW: The cross hairs?
JFL: They bombsight. Yeah. God. It was the very latest one and it was very accurate and you were looking through the bombsight and telling the pilot to do what he has to do. Left. Right. Whatever. And then when you get to the target the right position you pressed the button, the bombs go down and theoretically you should hit the target straight on which most of them did. But —
BW: Did you get any feedback or instructions say from a Master Bomber who might have been a Pathfinder aircraft or were they instructing you to bomb say on flares?
JFL: Daylight flying there was a Pathfinder. There was a, one in charge and you followed him but we didn’t do that. That’s what the Yanks did. Most of my bombing was night bombing and it was individual. The planes were all individuals. We were going to the same target but there was no formation or anything. But then we did some, went on to daylight flying with the, as it got well into the war we used to fly, fly with the Yanks. They —
[pause]
GBD: Did you not use any Pathfinders for your night time bombing? Was there not any kind of help from them on certain targets?
JFL: Yeah. There was, the Pathfinders. They went in first. They dropped their bombs which lit up the target and as you got close to it you could see the target then because there was a lot of fire going on. And the Pathfinders did a good job because they were, they had to circle around the city you know and the German fighters were there waiting for them and they still had to sit, circle round. They couldn’t do much else. So it was dangerous. A very dangerous job they had. The Pathfinders.
GBD: Absolutely.
JFL: Yeah. They lit up the towns or city for us so we had a target to see.
GBD: Got you.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: And do you have any other specific recollections of anything quite significant that happened? Certain incidents or certain strong memories about a particular thing that happened during any of your missions that you can share with us?
JFL: I can’t. I’d have to think about it now. It’s long ago.
GBD: Does anything stand out? Any particular memory of anything that happened?
JFL: Well, each, each bombing trip was much the same as the previous one. You were still very alert all the time. Couldn’t relax. You were watching for German fighters. There was always German fighters about.
GBD: Right. And you were saying your aircraft was peppered with holes. A lot of it.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: So you must have come under direct attack.
JFL: Yeah. Yeah. They came in sideways and underneath you, and over the top of you.
GBD: So that must have been very frightening.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: For someone young. Of your age. All aircrews obviously. To experience that.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: What was that like when you were under attack from German aircraft?
JFL: The two, two machine gunners in our plane, Halifax they, they did their best to keep them off. So the Germans fighters couldn’t get too close because we had two [pause] two gunners on the plane, the tail end and the mid-upper gunner. And they did good work keeping the German fighters at a distance. They couldn’t come too close. They’d get machine gunned.
GBD: They must have done a very good job because you’re still sat with us here all these years later.
JFL: Yeah. Yeah.
GBD: How do you feel to have actually survived forty six missions because that’s quite something? Forty six ops.
JFL: Well —
GBD: Some didn’t survive more than five. Many didn’t survive more than ten.
JFL: I think when you’re a youngster it doesn’t bother you too much.
GBD: But looking back now.
JFL: Sorry?
GBD: Looking back now how does that, any thoughts about that? How do you feel of all those operations and you saw your friends going down?
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: But you were very lucky.
JFL: Yeah.
GBD: Because I know Remembrance means a lot to you.
JFL: Yeah. I saw a good friend of mine. He was, he went down. That was, that was very upsetting but you seemed to take it in your stride. I don’t know. There were some, a lot of, a lot of aircrew refused to fly. Quite a lot of aircrew.
BW: Why did they, why did they refuse to fly?
JFL: When they saw the targets they wouldn’t go. And they were, they were put in the, in the station prison if they didn’t fly. I don’t remember what happened to them but they were locked up in the prison if they, if they, if they refused to fly. When they’d seen where the target was they wouldn’t go.
BW: So if you’re in the briefing room and the popular view of the briefing room is a large hall with a lot of young aircrew.
JFL: Yeah.
BW: Sat there waiting for the CO to brief for the target for tonight, if you like. And the curtain goes back. How did the guys make it known that they didn’t want to fly? I’m assuming they didn’t just get up and walk out but what?
JFL: Well, they probably waited until, until it was finished with. Then instead of going back to their bedroom or whatever you’d like to call it they went to the guardroom and gave themselves up to be locked up. And that took some doing as well. There was always three or four of them, but they just wouldn’t fly. So —
BW: So not necessarily the whole crew. Just maybe three or four from a crew.
JFL: Oh yeah. It could be, not necessarily the same crew.
BW: Ok.
JFL: Just very nervous. It was unfortunate.
BW: And was anything ever said about what would happen? Did for example the CO make any, or give any orders about guys who didn’t want to fly.
JFL: Do you know I’m a bit vague on that now. I always remember two or three guys which I knew they, they gave themselves up. They went to the guardhouse and asked to be locked up there. They wouldn’t fly. That took, that took some doing.
BW: But none of your guys. None of the guys in your crew.
JFL: No.
BW: Ever did that.
JFL: Not in our lot. No. No. I got in the line up to volunteer to go over to India.
GBD: Oh yeah.
JFL: To fly over there to bomb the Japs.
GBD: Ok.
BW: I think that was called Tiger Force wasn’t it?
JFL: That sounds familiar. Yeah. But I was, there must have been about ten or twelve of us in a line up just waiting to give our name and whatever and halfway, halfway through the line-up it came over the radio. The Japs had surrendered.
GBD: Ah yes.
JFL: So —
GBD: That was that.
JFL: No point. Didn’t have to go.
GBD: Right. Lucky you.
JFL: Yeah. Well, I volunteered to go because I was still in the Air Force but it, it never happened. Fortunately the Japs surrendered. Singapore.
GBD: And you ended up as a warrant officer.
JFL: Sorry?
GBD: You ended up as a warrant officer.
JFL: Yeah. Yeah.
GBD: So that’s good. You did quite well there. Yeah.
JFL: Yeah. I was certainly glad they surrendered.
GBD: So you didn’t have to —
[recording paused]
JFL: We were still in Germany. The next thing I know the nose of the plane, a shell had come right through it and I was stood halfway down the plane on the right hand starboard side. This German shell came through and just caught my ear and then hit the, hit the side of the plane. I’ve still got, I’ve got the marks here.
GBD: Wow. You were very lucky then.
JFL: Yeah. It just cut my ear off a little on one side. Yeah. It’s still, it’s still there to remind me.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with James Ferguson Latimer
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-09-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALatimerJF190928, PLatimerJF1903
Format
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01:21:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
France
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Manchester
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Germany
Germany--Braunschweig
England--Lancashire
Description
An account of the resource
James Ferguson Latimer was born in Edinburgh. His family emigrated to Canada when he was young but moved back to Scotland in 1939. He recalls witnessing a German U-boat torpedo a ship as they sailed back home. Latimer joined the air force and completed basic training at RAF Heaton Park, initially hoping to be a pilot, but qualified as a bomb aimer. He trained on Wellingtons, before converting to Halifax. Latimer was stationed with 102 squadron, based at RAF Pocklington, and 462 squadron, completing 46 operations in total. He details his duty as the bomb aimer during operations, the differing flying tactics of British and American forces, and recollects a night-time operation in August 1944, where he observed a close friend’s plane crash over Braunschweig. He also describes low flying over the English Channel and bombing the German army to support D-Day. Latimer recollects a number of eventful operations including, taking control of the steering when the aircraft left the runway and the pilot lost his nerve, and volunteering to climb out of the aircraft while flying over Germany to release a bomb that had not dropped properly. After completing his operations, he recalls a posting at an Air Sea Rescue Unit in Scotland. Latimer left the RAF in 1946 as a warrant officer, married his wife in 1948, and opened a shop.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1944-08
1946
1948
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
102 Squadron
462 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Fw 190
Halifax
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Pocklington
shot down
submarine
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/547/8800/PWynneH1824.2.jpg
8a14525fb55b64ede6852cb55b521a3c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynne, Helga
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. Includes family photographs and two oral history interviews with Helga Wynne (b. 1926) who reminisces her childhood in Kiel, the death of her future fiancé when the train he was travelling on was bombed, and her coming over to Great Britain in 1948.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Helga Wynne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wynne, H
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Helga Wynne
Description
An account of the resource
Helga Wynne was born into a family of twelve in 1926 in Kiel, Germany. She describes her childhood and her father working as a shipbuilder in the dockyards. She left school at 14 and went to work on a farm. She fell through the hayloft opening, fortunately onto a bale of hay. She was seriously injured and spent six months in hospital. She then trained as a nurse in a children’s hospital in Kiel. She describes the hospital being bombed and being buried under the rubble. She was saved by two doctors who dug her out. She talks about her meeting her fiancée, Wilhelm, a submariner. She became pregnant and they decided to marry at Wilhelm’s home in Westphalia. The train on which they were travelling was bombed and Wilhelm was killed. She describes the birth of her son and living with Wilhelm’s parents. In 1948, back in Kiel, she met Harold Wynne, a British paramedic doing his national service. He returned to the UK with her. They married in Burton, near Scunthorpe, and settled in Flixborough. She describes a happy family life and working on a farm as a tractor driver. Harold worked at the steel works in Scunthorpe until retirement. She describes her family life today, her three sons with Harold, her first-born son in Germany, and her partnership with Gordon. She reminisces about the explosion that occurred in Flixborough in the 1970s and the effect it had on the local community and the damage to her home and personal belongings. She recalls her emotions whilst visiting the exhibition at the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln and stresses the importance of reconciliation for all those involved in the bombing war.
<p>This content is available as embedded video:</p>
<p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/glKvoVJYj54?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></p>
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Date
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2018-08-02
Format
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00:24:29 video recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Moving image
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Kriegsmarine
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Kiel
England--Flixborough
England--Scunthorpe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1948
1974-06-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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VWynneH180802
PWynneH1824
bombing
childhood in wartime
perception of bombing war
submarine
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/896/11136/AInkpenH160712.2.mp3
769d6de8ba72622ffed198bb128df8ce
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Inkpen, Harry
H Inkpen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Harry Inkpen. He flew 33 operations as a pilot with 162 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Inkpen, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anne Brodie, the interviewee is Harry Inkpen. The interview is taking place at Mr. Inkpen’s home in [redacted] Ryde, Isle of Wight, on the 12th of July 2016.
HI: Thank you. Right.
AB: If you’d like just to tell us a bit about your service in the RAF?
HI: Now I talk now? What do I do, talk now?
AB: Yes, you can talk in there, and then it’s hearing there.
HI: It’ll pick it up?
AB: Yeah. It’s picking it up. I can see.
HI: Ah yes. I joined Bomber Command in November 1944 and that was one of the headquarters with number 8 group based in Huntington, Cambridgeshire and the commanding officer was Group Captain Don Bennett, subsequently he was an air vice marshal but he was a remarkable man, not only was he an ace pilot but he was a remarkable navigator in his own right. We started to, the operations with my navigator for our first tour together. The tour was supposed to be thirty five attacks on Germany. In the end, we only did thirty three, because the war ended in April and we were two short of the target, not that that mattered, but we joined 162 Squadron, a Mosquito squadron for markers for Pathfinders and we operated from Bourne in Lincolnshire, that was the aerodrome, and we shared the aerodrome with 105 Squadron, another Mosquito squadron who were master, master markers, they marked the target before we went in. The, when we were first into the Mosquito, as a pilot I fell in love with the aircraft because I’d never seen such a beautiful thing in my life. It had two Rolls Royce engines and the body was all wood and it was called the wooden wonder because it was a real wonder. I think the top speed, straight level, was four hundred and fifty miles an hour. In that day, that was very fast and this was how we had no defence against enemy fighters because we relied entirely on our speed and nothing could catch us. The German Air Marshall Goering was our main enemy, he was, they were very, the Luftwaffe were very, very good but our, really our very worst enemy was General Winter and that was the weather. Because from 1944 to over into ‘45 the weather was atrocious, on our operations, the thirty three trips we did we never lost, personally we weren’t even harmed on those trips but we had terrible troubles with the weather. And our number 162 Squadron, if I remember rightly, never lost an aircraft over Germany, but we lost twelve aircraft on take-off and landing because of ice, snow, fog, et cetera and that was our real enemy. The, can I pause there?
[recording paused]
AB: Okay [unclear].
HI: Of the thirty three raids that we did, Joe and I, seventeen of them were onto Berlin and Berlin, we never talked about Berlin, it was called, it was called the Big City, we used to say, we are going to the Big City and it was seventeen times we went there. It was very well defended because as the war was drawing to a close, it was in the last six months and Germany was being forced back towards Berlin, all of their anti-aircraft guns, all their searchlights, most of their defences were concentrated on Berlin, so when we were told it was a Berlin night, we knew we were in for some fight. They were very clever, the Germans, they had, they could pick us up on radar and on our instrument panel there were three little lights, if one of them, there was two red lights and a white light, if the red light first came on, it means the radar was actually picking us up, if the red light came on, it means the actual guns were firing and within a few seconds there will be a burst and if the white light came on there was a fighter on your tail, which was very, very helpful, now I only had once, when the red light came on, and the immediate action to do was to turn away smartly and drop down and just above you would be the bursts of the anti-aircraft fire, very clever and I only once had the white light came on which was when a fighter was on your tail and the only fighter that could catch us was the new Messerschmitt 262 which was a jet aircraft, now he could, he could catch us easily, he actually had to throttle back so that he could stay on our tail, now he got on the tail, the white light came on and the tracer went over the top, ‘cause immediately I dropped down and the tracer went over the top so that was really the only problem we had with the defences but the, so if you got caught with the searchlight it was rather remarkable, they had four blue searchlights around Berlin, North, South, East and West and the blue searchlight was radar controlled, if it came on, you could look on the end of it and there was an aircraft, it picked it up straight away and then all the other searchlights were white and they were called the slaves, that was the master searchlight and the white lights were the slaves and they then came right onto the plane, now once only we happened not, we weren’t personally caught but one of the slaves caught us in the light, it was a remarkable experience because one moment you’re in total darkness and the next moment you’re in blinding light and it is blinding light and the only way out of that is to go down straight down the searchlight so when it, when we were in this terrible light, I went straight down it to about five hundred miles an hour and then pulled up and lost it but quite an unusual experience and the other amazing experience was coming back from Berlin when we had dropped our bombs and we got as far as Hanau, H-A-N-A-U, which was a fairly big German city and they had some, a few good defences but we were roundabout thirty thousand feet, that’s nearly six miles high and quite unknown to us, both of the engines stopped, now if you can imagine, nearly six miles high an engine stopping, that is something very unusual, now not only did the engine stop, but the aircraft flipped over and it dropped from thirty thousand feet to eighteen thousand and not because of me but my hand was on the throttle and actually hoping to God the aircraft would come back again the engines and suddenly they came on and the relief was unbelievable and the power of the engines shot us forward, my navigator had disappeared down at the bomb bay and he came up rather shocked and I said, ‘I can’t believe it, Tom, we’re flying’ and the aircraft righted itself and flew on and we stayed at eighteen thousand feet and came home. Now, how that happened we checked afterwards to think what could possibly have stopped two Merlin engines and the current thought was that there’d been a burst of enemy anti-aircraft fire, a big burst and it had left a vacuum in the air and we had flown into the vacuum and because the engine could not get oxygen, the engine stopped and that was, that was the technical reason, the explanation but I was only too happy to say we were alive and home. And that was another remarkable explanation. Now the other, I’m telling you the highlights not the general, just run of the mill but the other experience we had, we got as far across the North Sea on another occasion and as we’d been two and a half hours away, by the time we got to the English coast, the North Sea fog had slowly crept in and the whole of the east coast, all the aerodromes were blotted out with ground fog which came up to a thousand feet, we went down to a thousand feet and we were completely blotted out in fog, we got through on the radio and from Bourne and they told us we must go to a nearby aerodrome thirty miles away which was not clear but it had FIDO on the aerodrome, F-I-D-O, and that’s Fog Instant Dispersal Operation and it’s, there’s two lines of metal strips running down the airfield perforated with flames coming out and it burned the fog away and it was quite remarkable, they gave us a course to this aerodrome and as we were going through the fog, which was grey and white, grey and white colour, as we got nearer to the point where we knew the airport should be, it started to turn yellow and then it turned bright yellow and then we realised we must be right over the aerodrome but we couldn’t see it, but what I did, I did a four minute time course on instruments to go round the airport and coming in on my last leg, I lowered down to five hundred feet and at five hundred feet suddenly the fog stopped just like, as if somebody had lifted a cloud and right in front of you was the airport with these two strips of flames, now these flames were six feet high each side and we landed, you could feel the heat, and there was a few gaps down the side where you get off and Joe said, ‘For God’s sake, don’t swerve’ because we should be roasted because we’d have gone into the flames so we found a gap and got off and the first time my navigator really any showed any great emotion, he just put his arm on my shoulder, he said, ‘Thank God we’re down’, I said, ‘Joe, I couldn’t agree with you more.’ And after that, we went in and saved the night and forgot all about it. Can I stop there for a bit?
[recording paused]
AB: Right.
HI: Aircrew are very suspicious, superstitious people, they’d all have some little gimmick that they carry with them, hoping it might give them some luck, in my case, on my right hand, I always wore my father’s gold ring, and on my left hand, I wore a silver ring which I had made from a silver dollar in America where I was learnt to fly in 1941 I gave an Indian, Navaho Indian a silver dollar and said, would you make me a silver ring?
US: [unclear]
HI: And that and he did and that flew with me and my father’s ring all through the war, all through the operations against Germany and I think it did me very, very well. In the case of my navigator, he was a bit of a lad on the ground was my navigator but in the air he was a remarkable man and quite so capable that I had fully reliance on him and what he did I saw he had something round his neck when he was flying and when I looked at it I said, ‘What’s the scarf you’ve got on then?’ No, no, no,’ he said, ‘That’s a petticoat.’ I said, ‘Oh yeah?’ ‘Yes, a silk petticoat, it’s a blue silk petticoat, and it’s from my current girlfriend’, and he said, ‘I always fly with that.’ I said, ‘I’m so pleased you got something to hold onto even if it’s only a petticoat’, well, halfway through the tour, I then noticed it wasn’t a blue petticoat, but it was a yellow petticoat, and I said, ‘You know, what’s the change of colour?’ ‘Well’, he said, ‘We had a little bit of a tiff, and I’ve moved on.’ So that was why, that was a little bit of unusual thing,
US: [unclear]
HI: About superstitious [recording paused]
HI: When I think that there was, in Bomber Command, those terrible losses, all of those fellows on average would have been carrying something and all those little gifts and [unclear] had gone forever and never been recorded but in my case they did me a favour,
[recording paused]
HI: As far as I can remember, because security was so great in the war, nobody said anything about anything but as far as I know 162 Squadron was, the Mosquito squadron that I was on was the only one that never actually suffered a loss through the enemy, we suffered a twelve, a loss of twelve crews through bad weather, fog, ice, snow and crashes, particularly running short of fuel and going into the North Sea and but we only lost through, purely through weather, bad weather and the weather was so bad, up to nowadays people wouldn’t be flying in it, they wouldn’t be allowed to fly in it but in the war, you didn’t question it, if you flew, you went and that was it, that was, that’s and therefore I can’t remember hearing of any other Mosquito, Pathfinder Squadron who actually lost a plane over Germany, they all lost through bad weather.
[recording paused]
HI: Okay, we are now talking about the last leg into the target, which had to be very accurately flown because the bombsight in the nose of the aircraft was pre-set before the actual aircraft took off, so in the, on the bombsight, if it was Berlin, let’s say it was set at thirty thousand feet and the speed had to be four hundred and fifty miles an hour, the wind had to be, already been calculated, that was put into the bombsight and heading for the last leg, say had to be three hundred and sixty degrees, now all that was actually put into the bombsight before we took off but on the last leg into the target, when the navigator went down to drop the four bombs, which were incidentally were four five hundred pound bombs, he had to know bomb is watch, exactly the time when he pressed the button and said, bomb’s gone, because it was dictated by the bombsight, we were, what we were doing exactly what the bombsight told us to do and that was most important, we actually dropped four five hundred pound bombs, three of them were instantaneous and the fourth was had a twenty four hour delay on it, which was a hope to confuse the enemy when they were trying to clear up that another bomb went off but when they were released and you lost a thousand pounds worth of bombs, the aircraft would jump quite visibly and it was a very pleasing sight.
[recording paused]
HI: To qualify for Mosquitos, certainly for Bomber Command, you had to, a pilot had to have a minimum of a thousand hours flying experience and also had a very high instrument rating because as everything was at night you’d require, you relied entirely on instruments, you you must have an absolute trust in instruments to qualify for this and that’s why it was very difficult to get on to a Mosquito squadron but I was very, very happy that I did because it was an experience I’ll never forget and those qualifications came in very useful in the end, also my lucky rings were a bit of a charm,
[recording paused]
HI: In the Air Force were really going back to school because you were always in class, always learning navigation, mathematics were very high on that and aircraft recognition, firing guns, all all ground work and studies took quite a year on the ground and then suddenly you were selected for, to be a pilot, which was the what you were trying to get to and been aiming all the time, when you, when you became selected to be a pilot, you, they put a white flash in your helmet to designate that you were a pilot and not anybody else and then of course we were sent over to Canada and we went from Gourock on the Clyde out into a troop ship, which was SS Louis Pasteur, which was commandeered from the French, we pinched one of their liners, and we ‘propated it into a troop ship, we went up by via Greenland to try and avoid the submarines and then ended up in Halifax near Brunswick
US: Nova Scotia.
HI: As a gathering point and from then on we moved into New Brunswick to Moncton, New Brunswick which was for pilots only, selected for pilots only and the destination from there could only be Florida, South Africa or America. Now, everybody wanted America because, number one, America hadn’t actually entered the war, we were still at war with Germany but, they had never declared war on America so we were sent down by train right down the Saint Lawrence to Toronto, then on to the East Coast line, the West Coast line to Texas, through Texas to Arizona to the little town of Mesa, Arizona, which is an offshoot of Phoenix and Mesa was where the aerodrome was. And of course, we were, there was only fifty of us, fifty English boys, all in civilian clothes because we weren’t allowed to wear a uniform, we were we were entered as visitors and treated as visitors so to get us a training at that time they wanted fighter pilots because it was 1941 and we were seconded to the American Army Air Force as a fighter pilot under training and that was only for a few days and in December, the 8th my birthday, Pearl Harbour happened, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and America, and then Germany declared war on America, and at that point we were allowed to have uniforms flown down from Canada and suddenly we became air force people and not civilians and then we went to the English British Flying Training School at Mesa, Falcon Field and we were trained there as fighter, to be fighter pilots and my instructor was a civilian, American civilian, he’d been a crop-duster, he’d been an aerobatic pilot in air shows and he’d signed on with the Americans to train pilots and my fortune was that he trained me and he was old enough to be my father and to me, I respected him as my father, and that man taught me to fly and he did me the biggest favour anybody can ever do, and he got me solo in six hours, which was almost a record, but he’s taught me always, because I taught thousands of people to fly after that, and he always taught me to tell them, when you step into an aircraft, you become part of the aircraft, you are not an alien, you are part of it, do exactly what you do with it and from then on I used to tell everybody the same story, and that man taught me to fly, now when I eventually went solo at six hours, we passed on to advanced training to really high quality Harvards and then that was the end and we were told we had our wings, we were made sergeants and we, they pinned the wings on our chest and we were on our way to go home to England. And of course I went back to Canada and this time still to Halifax and this time we got on the troop ship called the Duchess of Atholl, and she was nicknamed the Drunken Duchess because she was a pretty bad ride, she was a luxury liner commandeered as a troop ship but she was pretty rough and we had a very rough passage going over, we went as far as we could up to Greenland and back to Europe but on the way back, we sunk the, had four destroyers as escorts personally for our boat and they left us and went off to laying minefield, depth charges in a circle, and I witnessed the most amazing thing because all these depth charges exploded and suddenly a submarine appeared in the middle, they’d actually got him and when he, when the submarine appeared, every gun from every ship fired at this because they were so delighted and they sank the submarine and after that, we went on quite peacefully to Gourock and from then on we went to Bournemouth, you know that was another point, and there we were sorted out into groups, they’d suddenly realised in 1942, they didn’t want fighter pilots, so we’d been trained as fighter pilots, so here we go, what are we gonna do? So they selected, were you good at instrument flying? Yes, okay. So then, I then went on a course on twin engines because they wanted bomber pilots, so when I did the course on twin engined Oxfords they realised, I did a lot of night flying, and they realised I was fairly good on instruments and also they thought, I could well teach people to to actually fly at night so then I went to Upavon on Salisbury Plain which was the Central Flying School of the RAF and that dated back to the First World War and the mess there had a big fire in it, in the fireplace and over it was a vast propeller and it was from a Zeppelin [unclear] shot down at the First World War, so that was the Central Flying School of the RAF and I had to pass through that to become a flying instructor. When I became a flying instructor, I was sent to Flying Training Command which was at South Cerney in Oxfordshire and South Cerney was the base but they had many satellite aerodromes which were all training aircraft for Oxfords, twin engine aircraft and from then on I trained people on twin engine Oxfords at night flying so I gathered a hell of a lot of night flying hours and hence a lot of night night instrument flying and in that time I was quite a few years with Flying Training Command doing just that, I had one slight respite when I was taken away to train people to fly Horsa gliders, for God’s sake, and they were army officers or army sergeants drafted from the army to just learn to land an aircraft, that’s all, you had to take them up, show them how to take off, but they wanted to know when you cut the engine, how to glide because they were going to be glider pilots and for about two months I trained people to fly that, just fly the Tiger Moth and glide till they knew the angle and from then on I moved on from there back to Flying Training Command and then to twin engines but for me in that little period they took me to Brize Norton and let me actually get in a glider, a Horsa glider so I had the experience of being co-pilot in a Horsa glider with thirty five men in the fully armed back and a landing jeep and a machine gun at the back of me and I remember being towed up by a Lancaster and then at the point of return everything suddenly went silent, the nose dipped and the aircraft took a very steep dive, I reached about a hundred miles an hour and all I could think of was thirty five men in a jeep and a gun in my back and are we gonna land alright and he made a perfect landing and that’s the first time I’d ever been in a glider but I had the experience, I think that was it. So, you see, it’s varied.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Harry Inkpen
Creator
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Anne Brodie
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AInkpenH160712
Format
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00:31:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Inkpen joined Bomber Command in November 1944 and flew 33 operations on Mosquitoes as a pilot on 162 Squadron. Tells of how, in his view, his squadron had more losses because of bad weather conditions than because of encounters with the enemy. He flew 17 operations to Berlin and talks about the German defences and searchlight organisation. Recounts a harrowing experience of the aircraft’s engines suddenly stopping while returning from Berlin. Tells of aircrew superstitions: he wore his father’s ring as a lucky charm; his navigator carried a silk petticoat. Remembers being caught in fog returning from an operation and managing to land thanks to FIDO. Recounts travelling to Canada and America, where was trained as a pilot. Mentions the sinking of a U-boat on the way back from Canada. Remembers training army officers to fly Horsa gliders.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
162 Squadron
4 BFTS
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
British Flying Training School Program
FIDO
Horsa
Mosquito
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Bourn
RAF South Cerney
searchlight
submarine
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/858/11100/AHarrisHST150909.2.mp3
0644ea5d3fae401b624fe3f915057fc0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Harry
Harry Stracan Thomson Harris
H S T Harris
Sam Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Stracan Thomson Harris (162261 Royal Air Force). He flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 103 Squadron and later with 105 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, HST
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright and I’m interviewing Mr Harry Harris on Wednesday the 9th of September at 2:25 in the afternoon in his house. So, Harry, you were in the RAF, in Bomber Command. What was your rank when you left?
HH: Flight lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And start us off. Just please tell me about your home life before the war.
HH: Well in 1939 I lived in ‘Trose and I went down to London to start a chef’s course at the Westminster College for Cookery and I stayed with an aunt who lived in London. I was there during the Blitz and then my, my cousin and I didn’t agree so I was evacuated to Exeter as an evacuee.
BW: Right.
HH: But I didn’t like it at Exeter and I came back to London. Started, re-started on the course and I lived in a sort of YMCA place beside the River Thames and it was the centre of the bombing there and, but I liked it. I went out every night to watch the bombers. But then I had to leave and I found out later, my aunt had been paying for my education and she had to stop work and look after her parents. So, I had to go home and I worked for a year in a mental, the hospital of a mental asylum.
BW: And what year was that?
HH: That was in 1941. And then when I became seventeen and a half — it was 1940, I came back. And when I became seventeen and a half I volunteered as a pilot at Aberdeen. Then I went to Edinburgh about July to do the course. The tests and things. And they drilled me then as a navigator and I found out much later, when I was at the RAF flying college that if you got a certain, they did a maths test and if you got above a certain number you automatically qualified as a navigator. Under that you became a pilot or an air gunner. And we used to, when we found out we used to call them the dim pilots [laughs] because they couldn’t pass the test. But then I went to, went to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground. That was where we think we met. And then went down to Torquay. Babbacombe near Torquay, for the first course. Training course. And then from there to Eastbourne for another course and from there went to, to South Africa for our flying. We landed at Cape Town and went up to Pretoria and then down to Port Elizabeth where we did our course. Our flying course. And then passed out and got our wings. I got mine in November 1942.
BW: And this was your navigator wings.
HH: Navigator. Yes.
BW: Right. What prompted you to become a navigator? I think you mentioned earlier you wanted to be a pilot.
HH: A pilot. Yeah. Well when I went —
BW: Why the change?
HH: When I went to this board at Edinburgh. I forget what they called the board. Screening board. And we did, you know, oral interviews. We had written tests and one was a maths test and apparently that’s when the heavy bombers were coming in and they wanted navigators and so they did this by choosing above a certain percentage in the maths test. You were automatically selected as navigator.
BW: Ok. And when you went down to Cape Town for the, for the flying was that the navigational instructional part of flying?
HH: Yes.
BW: So you were put in an aircraft and learned to navigate.
HH: That’s right. Yeah. We flew in Oxfords. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: At Port Elizabeth. And there used to be three u/t navigators in an aircraft. One was navigating. One was sitting beside the pilot and using the wind to find out the winds and the other one did the Astra. And —
BW: The Astra being the star navigations.
HH: Astra navigation. Yeah. And on the second last one of our course we flew out over the sea and our course commander was an ex-naval officer and we flew over the sea and we saw all these lifeboats. A tremendous number of lifeboats. We couldn’t communicate with them so we came back to Port Elizabeth and they sent out a boat and picked up all the survivors. But the next day we went out again. This time I was sitting in the front with the pilot and I saw a boat. It was a U-boat.
BW: Right.
HH: And the pilot, the South African pilot and he turned towards this U-boat and started diving. Now this U-boat came up, there was three gunners at the far end of the boat with a gun and they were firing at us and the shells were just going two or three feet above us because they weren’t allowing for us going down. So we carried a depth charge and as we got closer the three men ran towards the conning tower. As we got closed the conning tower was closed so they couldn’t get in. We dropped the depth charge and at this time we were only about fifty feet and this time we turned. There was nothing left. The U-boat had gone. And years, years later I met the course commander and, you know I asked if anything had happened about that. And he said, ‘No. They never confirmed the loss of a U-boat.’ Yeah.
BW: So you weren’t sure whether it had dived and avoided it or whether it had been hit.
HH: No. We didn’t know.
BW: There was no trace of it.
HH: No.
BW: Right. And that was just on, that was just on the training.
HH: [laughs] Yes. On training. That was our last trip. Funny. We went back to Cape Town and then, I forget where and we got on the boat again to come home. And we were in the South Atlantic when we, the ship ran into the wreckage of a ship that had been torpedoed. We lost a propeller and had to go in to New York and we got there on the 26th of December. And we were there for three weeks. Beautiful.
BW: Very good. And so, you then must have come back from America.
HH: We came back to New York.
BW: At some point.
HH: Back to Glasgow. Yeah. And then we did more flying at Wigtown on Ansons. Just to get acclimatized, you know, with the country. And then we went to the Operational Training Unit and it’s all written down there. That’s where we met the first of the crew. The pilot was Ken Murray and he’d trained in America and he wanted to fly on fighters. And when he found he was going to be flying on bombers he wasn’t a very happy chap I can tell you. But we got on well.
BW: Good.
HH: And the first day there they had to crew-up and at the end of the day there was twelve of us hadn’t crewed-up. That was two crews. So we want to the pub in Loughborough and somehow we got together and we stayed together.
BW: And this was The Golden Fleece in Loughborough. Is that right?
HH: Yeah. And the other crew that were there that night they were killed at the Operational Training Unit. They crashed on take-off and they were all killed. So if I’d gone with the other pilot I wouldn’t be here today.
BW: That’s fate isn’t it?
HH: It is. Yeah.
BW: So you were based in, in Lincolnshire.
HH: Yeah. Elsham Wolds.
BW: Or Leicestershire. About there. Is that right? At that time?
HH: Pardon?
BW: You were based around Leicestershire at that time if you were in Loughborough.
HH: At that time. Yeah. We must. We did our first operation from there.
BW: So where were you, where you were based at this point on — had you joined operations at this stage? Now you’d crewed up.
HH: No. No. We, we went. We did our flying training on Wellingtons. Wellington 1Cs. And at the end of the course we went on an operation to Dunkirk. And it’s all written down there. And when we got over the target we got hit by flak but we managed to get back home. The hydraulic system had gone. So had to wind down the undercarriage. Wind down flaps. And the next morning the engineer came and said that the shell had missed the fuel tank by three inches [laughs] And we wouldn’t be here.
BW: Wow.
HH: Yeah. He had it all. He said three inches.
BW: And so the early part of your flying career then you were flying in Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah. Wellington 1Cs. Yeah.
BW: And from then on, I mean we understand that you went on to fly Lancasters.
HH: On to Lancasters. Yeah.
BW: How many operations did you fly on Wellingtons?
HH: One. Just the one.
BW: Just the one.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And how was the change made, or the decision made for you to fly Lancasters?
HH: Well we, from the Wellingtons we went to train on Halifaxes. And then when the pilot was capable of flying the Halifax we went on to Lancasters. And then when they were satisfied that he was fit then we went to 576 Squadron, Elsham Wolds.
BW: And Elsham Wolds is also in Lincolnshire isn’t it?
HH: Yeah. Lincoln. Lincolnshire.
BW: And how did you find that change from Halifaxes to Lancasters? Was there—
HH: Oh, I loved the Lancaster. Yeah. That was, yeah.
BW: And there are more, are there the same number of crew in the Wellingtons?
HH: Yeah. Same number of crew. Yeah.
BW: Ok. So you were able to keep the same crew together?
HH: Oh yes. The same crew. Yeah.
BW: And what were the living conditions like on base at that time?
HH: Well, there was Nissen huts. I suppose we got used to them. Each Nissen hut got somehow fourteen, somehow twenty beds and you just got used to it. You had, well they just had the basics I suppose.
BW: Just a bed and blankets.
HH: Bed and blankets in them.
BW: And a stove in the middle.
HH: Yeah. Yeah there was three, I forget what they call them now. Three square things made up the mattress. Yeah. And that’s all there was. And the washing facilities were always outside. And in the wintertime there was no heating in the ablutions and so the water was freezing cold. Sometimes frozen altogether. And the heating inside the stoves [pause] well you used what you could. Logs or anything we used to use just to keep the place warm when we were there.
BW: Did you have the hut to yourself or were you sharing with another crew?
HH: We shared. Until we got to the squadron we shared with another crew. When we got to Elsham Wolds we had to wait until they got the Nissen ready. And we got the Nissen and we found out later that we had to wait because the crew that had occupied the Nissen had gone missing. And there was room for two crews actually but we only ever had the one crew in it. The losses was pretty heavy so we only ever had just the one. Just ourselves.
BW: And were you fairly close to the aircraft? Or to the mess?
HH: No. We had to get —
BW: Whereabouts on the base were you?
HH: We all had cycles. It was about a mile, a mile and a half to cycle.
BW: Each day. Just to —
HH: Yeah. Just to get up to the main part.
BW: Right.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. All the living accommodation was spread away from the airfield.
BW: Right. I’m just going to pause the recording for the moment.
[recording paused]
BW: I just paused the recording there to allow us to just put the door to and avoid any background noise. So, continuing on you were at Elsham Wolds then. You were flying Lancasters. And you were living in Nissen huts.
HH: Yeah.
BW: At the edge of the airfield. What were your, or describe for me if you would please a typical sortie for a Lancaster operation from sort of getting ready to do the operation and then flying it and then coming back. What was that like?
HH: Well we, we used to, every morning we went and got breakfast. Went up to the squadron offices and sometimes we would go ahead and do an air test and we’d wait until about lunchtime and then they would say whether the operations were on that night or not. That was usually around lunchtime. And then the briefing was with, there was a navigation briefing first. Just the navigator, the bomb aimer and the pilot there. And we got told the target, the route and I made out the flight plan. And when that was finished we went to the main operations room where the station commander, he would, all the crews were there and he would tell them where the operation was and that was the first they would know. We had known maybe half an hour, three quarters of an hour before but then they only knew then. And they went through the drill — what was happening, what the target was and any questions. And I can’t remember anybody ever asking a question [laughs] and then we went to the aircraft and took off at the allotted time.
BW: It, it’s been said at certain times that aircrew had superstitions. Were there any that you were aware of on your aircraft or in your crew?
HH: Any? Any what?
BW: Superstitions or habits or, guys would take, for example personal items with them as lucky charms. Were there any instances like that?
HH: See that picture behind you.
BW: There’s a, on the wall is a picture of, like a little gollywog.
HH: Yeah.
BW: Was that yours?
HH: Yeah. My wife, when we came back from South Africa my girlfriend, now my wife she bought me that and I wore that every time I flew. For the rest of my flying career I flew with that.
BW: And what’s —
HH: It’s downstairs.
BW: What sort of size is, is that? Is it, it must only have been a little figure was it?
HH: It was — high. Yes. It’s downstairs.
BW: So about three to four inches. Yeah Three or four inches tall.
HH: It just fitted inside the pocket. Yeah.
BW: Right. So that was your lucky charm that you took on a mission.
HH: That was my lucky charm. Yeah.
BW: It seems to have worked.
HH: The lucky charm and a box of matches in that pocket. And twenty cigarettes in the other one [laughs]
BW: About —
HH: I never ever flew again without that mascot. And I flew over nine and a half thousand hours.
BW: Wow. And did the, did your other mates have any similar things?
HH: Yeah. They had similar things but I can’t remember what they were.
BW: Right.
HH: But every one of them had a mascot. Every one [laughs]
BW: So you get into the aircraft. You get into the Lancaster and prepare. What sort of things would you start to do and the others start to do to, to get ready?
HH: Well, we, first of all we went to pick up our parachutes and Mae Wests. And then we got in a truck that took us out to the aircraft. We’d get inside and prepare. Like the pilot and the flight engineer would do all the checks. Checks. Myself and the bomb aimer, you know would get the flight plan and check all the other instruments were there. The wireless op was the same. And the air gunners, they would check all their equipment. And then it would be time to, to go to the take-off point. The take off point was a caravan and they gave a green light to take off. And beside that caravan, every time I can remember there was a crowd of WAAFs there. And airmen but mostly WAAFS would come to see us take off. And, and that, I was thinking back. That was the time that we were most frightened. Take-off time. Every time we talked it was, in case we would crash on take-off.
BW: Because the aircraft is fully loaded and fully fuelled.
HH: Fully loaded. Yeah. Had full fuel and we had a big cookie each. What was it? Two tonnes plus incendiaries. And one night we didn’t take off properly. We went through, past the end of the runway, through the fence at the end of the runway and luckily there was a quarry underneath and we went down in the quarry and came out at Brigg before we started to pull up again.
BW: So if there hadn’t been a quarry at the end of the runway — ?
HH: That was, we would have gone [laughs] That was, that was the worst one. Yeah.
BW: Wow.
HH: Yeah. That quarry saved us. And it was a long time it ever happened because we would fly over Brigg which was quite a few miles away before we started to climb.
BW: And yet the other aircraft would have been similarly fuelled and armed.
HH: Yeah but they —
BW: And they got off all right.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t know what it was. No. No.
BW: So, on the flight out you’re now airborne heading towards the enemy coast. What sort of things are happening in the aircraft at this stage?
HH: Well, on the Lancasters then we had a navigation aid called Gee. You know, where we could fix our position within, you know a half of mile. But once it got outside Britain the signal faded and the Germans were jamming it anyhow. So after that you relied just on, I don’t know the Pathfinders would pass winds and you used to use these winds because they had H2S which gave a map of the ground. But the winds weren’t always accurate. Sometimes a long, long way out. And so we, we just had this Gee. That was all.
BW: And apart from that there was just dead reckoning presumably.
HH: Dead reckoning. That’s all there was. Yeah.
BW: Did you —
HH: But then we got an aircraft. It was fitted with H2S [laughs] That was towards the end and that, that was absolutely different altogether. Yeah.
BW: Made the job a lot easier.
HH: Yeah. It did. Yeah.
BW: So did you have to circle the airfield to form up?
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: Or did you meet the formation over a certain point?
HH: No. We, you were given your take-off time and the first crews took off first so, and then you had time to set course over the airfield. That’s sometimes you’d get airborne and it was twenty, twenty five minutes before you got back over the airfield for the right time to head out. And it was strongly, they put, always had the new crews on there. They should have put the older crews on that but they didn’t. They didn’t in our squadron.
BW: So you had, you had a separate take off time to be airborne.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And you then had to be overhead the airfield at a certain time to set course.
HH: Yeah. All aircraft. Well if it was fairly light you could see the other aircraft. Otherwise you didn’t.
BW: And did —
HH: And I think there were some crashes there too.
BW: And did you see much of the other aircraft throughout the rest of the sorties?
HH: No. No.
BW: Missions.
HH: Not unless they were caught in the searchlights. No.
BW: So —
HH: We did, it was all night stuff we did.
BW: So presumably then very rarely would you actually see other aircraft in the, in the formation.
HH: No. You wouldn’t. No.
BW: How did it feel then? Did it feel as part of a combined effort or did it feel pretty much as a lone crew out there?
HH: Well it just, it was just the sort of thing you did, you know. I don’t know. As I said the only time we saw other aircraft was when they were caught in the searchlights. And over a target, you know when the target was all lit up then you could see other aircraft. Usually then there was full searchlights. But no. In the darkness we never saw anything.
BW: So when you left the shores of England and you were flying out over the Sea were you able to see France or the Dutch coast at all?
HH: No. No. No. It was always dark. Always dark. Never saw the ground.
BW: Did you ever receive any attention from the flak guns on the ground below or from night fighters at all?
HH: We once had night fighters and the rear gunner, he fired his guns but then I don’t know what happened. It just disappeared. That was the only time.
BW: And so when it came to being over the target what would be happening in the aircraft then?
HH: Well, the bomb aimer would be down giving directions. He’d find the [pause] the what do you call it? [laughs] The target indicator. And it was red, blue, whatever it was. And he’d find that and he’d head towards that and give directions to the pilot — left, left, right. And then the flight engineer and the pilot were in their seats. I would get out of mine and I would stand behind the flight engineer to see what was going on. And the, then there’s bombs gone and then they had to wait because the camera would take a photograph. So it was like forty seconds I think till the bombs went down and once the photograph was taken it was bomb doors closed. I would give the pilot the next heading and off we’d go.
BW: And all this time on the run in to the target and the run out you had to keep straight and level.
HH: Oh yes.
BW: One, in order to, to allow the bombs to fall accurately but also to allow the photograph to be taken.
HH: Had to be absolutely straight and level. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Were there times when that wasn’t possible?
HH: The only times if you’d got behind another aircraft and then you’d go bumpety bump. That was awful. But when I was, later when I was in Mosquitoes and doing the bombing that was beautiful. The Mosquito could hold itself nicely. But the Lancaster, no. There was always aircraft in front. It was a bit bumpy, you know.
BW: Just because of the turbulence —
HH: Turbulence. Yeah.
BW: From the aircraft ahead. And so once you’d dropped the, dropped the bombs and turned for home what sort of things were going on then? What —
HH: Well, that was, I think that’s when we lost a lot of the aircraft but I’m not sure because the German fighters then, they were all from over the place, had gone. They knew where the target was and had gone there and there was lots and lots of fighters.
BW: So the gunners were pretty active.
HH: We could, we could see the other aircraft being shot down. We’d see the tracer bullets and this sort of thing. It’s quite a lot of, the worst one was on the Nuremberg raid where we lost ninety five. And on the way out it was a long, straight course and the fighters got up. And I was inside there, I didn’t see anything but the flight engineer was saying, ‘There’s another one,’ and the pilot said, ‘It’s only dummies. It’s only dummies. They’re just shooting dummies. There’s no aircraft there.’ And when we got back to base, at the debriefing he said, ‘And we lost an awful lot of aircraft on the way out.’ Oh [laughs] Trying to keep us from being frightened. Yeah.
BW: When, during the flight back did you begin to feel safe again?
HH: I think we felt safe all the way really. It was just we’d done the job and I was just getting back.
BW: Ok.
HH: I can’t, all I was worried about mostly was when we could pick up the navigation. Gee. You know. To be sure we were in the right place. But I, I don’t think we were. I could be wrong but I don’t think we worried too much going back. You know. It was going out. The very worst time was the take-off. That was, we all agreed that was the worst time.
BW: So once you were in the air the nerves started to settle a bit with doing your job.
HH: You were doing your job then. Yeah.
BW: So, roughly how long would each sortie or each operation have been then?
HH: About six hours. It’s all in there somewhere. Each one. About six hours I think. Yeah. But then after a while we started going to the French targets and that was, you know five hours maybe. And the very last one was on D-Day. We went to Vire Bridge in Northern France. And that was the first time that the bomb aimer had seen where the bombs landed. And two of them landed on the bridge. He was so happy we hit it.
BW: What was the name of the bridge again?
HH: Vire. V I R E.
BW: Oh. I see.
HH: Yeah. My eldest daughter’s, well she’s been going to France for years to a motorbike thing and she brought back a picture of somewhere around. There is a picture of Vire Bridge.
BW: Obviously rebuilt since your bomb aimer put two bombs on it.
HH: Yeah. Funnily enough on Mosquitoes I only once saw where the bombs dropped. It was a Cookie we carried. No, I wasn’t. Sometimes. And I can still see it. Yeah. There was a very, very wide road. A canal running along the side and a building with a massive door at the side. The bomb landed in the middle of this so it must have blown the door, must have blown the side off the factory. That’s what we were aiming for. The factory. That was the only once.
BW: And the bomb hit. It landed on the road. Or landed in the —
HH: Landed on the road. Yeah. It was halfway between the building and the canal.
BW: But it still blew the factory down.
HH: It would have. It was only about ten fifteen yards from the wall so it must have blown it right, right out. And the factory too, I hope.
BW: And when you returned to base after a successful operation what then happened? You mentioned debriefing.
HH: The debriefing. Yeah. You went in front of the intelligence officers and they, they mainly the questions, you know. They wanted to know anything and we just told them about the trip.
BW: And what sort of questions would they ask?
HH: Oh, about the Pathfinders. Did they drop the right, did they drop the right colours and that? Did you think they were in the right place? And this sort of thing. About the timing. Did you see any enemy aircraft and enemy gunfire? That was the sort of things they wanted to know. Just the defences.
BW: And once you’d had the debriefing? What? What then?
HH: Oh, we went back. Handed in our parachutes and Mae Wests and then went for a meal in the mess.
BW: How did you spend your spare time between operations?
HH: Well, we were at Elsham Wolds and it was quite, quite a long way to, Brigg was the nearest place. And Scunthorpe was beyond that. And we’d, initially we’d all go out together, all seven of us and we’d go to Brigg and drink in the pub there. And we had bicycles so we’d cycle there and cycle back. And then the pilot got commissioned so he sort of left us then and we split. We did the same as before. And then the bomb aimer and the flight engineer, they met a couple of people and they went to their home. You know and they sometimes stayed overnight if they could. And the two air gunners, they went on their bikes and they cycled all the way up to the Humber and they went together. So there was the wireless operator and myself and we just went our own way to the pub and the dance hall and back. That was it. Go to Scunthorpe. Got the train to Scunthorpe and get the last train back.
BW: And were you on ops every night or were there periods —
HH: Oh no. No. No. No. Very seldom it was two nights in a row. Sometimes there’d be a week’s gap or something. And every four days, every four weeks we had a week’s leave. But because of the losses sometimes we got leave every three weeks. Yeah. The losses were pretty heavy at the time.
BW: How did you spend your leave when you got the opportunity?
HH: With my wife. She, we lived not far apart in the village and we used to go out dancing and that sort of thing. That was all. In the summertime, well in the summertime then we had the bikes and we went biking, walking. But in the wintertime that was all there was because she was working all the time.
BW: How did you meet?
HH: Well we lived, my father and mother, my father was in the Royal Marines during the First World War and my mother was in the Women’s Royal Air Force near [unclear] in 1919. And they both lived in ‘Trose and they both went as nurses at the asylum, Montrose Royal Asylum. They both went as nurses. They met and got married and then I came along. And in that asylum, it was a small community and Mary’s father was the grieve. I don’t know, the head farmer. He was in charge of the farm. It was a great big farm. A really huge farm. So, you know, all the kids, we used to all play together and that in the grounds of the asylum. That’s how we met.
BW: And so you’d knew each other for a while before the war started and before you joined up.
HH: Oh knows, we played together and her brothers and that since we were five years old, you know, so. But it wasn’t until I was going overseas that I had a few days leave and I met her. And we just had a couple of days, you know going out and then we wrote and then it was another about fourteen months I think before we met again. Yeah.
BW: And how did you re-meet? When did you —
HH: Oh we kept writing all the time. Yeah. And then we got married in 1947 because I was going to be posted to an airfield in London, or near London. And I’d phoned the adjutant and he said accommodation was no problem. My wife would get a job. That was no problem. He guaranteed everything. So we got married. Went on honeymoon. Three days later we were going out the hotel and the porter came around and said I was wanted on the phone. I thought, ‘Oh. There’s only, there’s only the Air Ministry know I’m here.’ So I went and they said, ‘You’re posted to Singapore. You’re leaving in one week’s time.’ And so I went off to Singapore and at that time you weren’t considered married until you were twenty five. Well I was only twenty three. So it was eighteen months before she could join me.
BW: Just because of the service rules.
HH: Oh yeah. Eighteen months.
BW: So just, I’d just like to go back. You mentioned about flying Mosquitoes. At what stage during your career, your service career did you change to Mosquitoes?
HH: Well, when we finished operations on Lancasters I was posted to a Canadian run Operational Training Unit. They were flying Wellingtons. It was run by Canadians for Canadians but in this country. And the only RAF people there were the station commander, a group captain and a wireless operator. He’d done a tour of operations himself. But we were the only RAF personnel. And instead of lecturing I used to just to go up, fly with them in an aircraft with the trainees. And that was all that was done so I got fed up with this and I went and saw the station commander and said I wanted a posting. And he said, ‘No. No.’ And every Monday morning I went. In the end he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I’ve arranged for you to go before a commissioning board.’ And so myself and the wireless operator went before this commissioning board and got our commissions. And the next day I went to see the group captain [laughs] He said, ‘Now, don’t tell me.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And a week later he, he arranged for me to go on Mosquitoes. That was good.
BW: And did you move onto that squadron on your own or were there any mates that went with you?
HH: No. Just on my —
BW: Just on your own.
HH: Just on my own. Went to the, what do they call it where you all met? The pilots and navigators. And I crewed-up with this George Nunn. He crewed-up with me. He picked me [laughs] And so we flew together. We flew on Oxfords at first during this training and then on to Mosquitoes. And then on to the squadron. And then when the war finished in Europe I had a navigator friend, he was from the West Indies and he was going to London to meet his own people. So, I went down to London with him to this pub. It was full of West Indians and, but we had a good time. And then they said that 105 Squadron, Mosquito squadron was going to start training for the Far East. I thought — oh. So, I went back to thingummybob and saw the wing commander and I said I would like to transfer to 105 Squadron. And he went up in the air because he was organising this sort of, what do they call it [pause] West Indies. A big aircraft thing. Commercial aircraft. He was going to be the boss and he was looking for people to fly. And so I kept on and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You haven’t got a chance going by yourself. You have to find a pilot.’ Well, George wasn’t keen because he wanted to go back to his old job but when he, when he heard that he said, ‘Right. Away we go.’ So we got posted to 105 Squadron. And we were doing this, this new bombing aid they had. And we were ready. Just to be ready to go to the Far East when the war finished.
BW: But you got, you got out there it must have been late 1945 then.
HH: Yeah.
BW: In that case.
HH: Yeah. So 1945 finished with Mosquitoes and I went on the training on what they called BABS. It was a blind landing aid. And we went to various Transport Command stations and taught them how to fly this. And then I got, got married and then Singapore on 48 Squadron.
BW: And what were you flying there?
HH: Dakotas.
BW: How long were you out in the Far East?
HH: Just over two and a half years. I flew a lot to Hong Kong. India. Bangkok. A couple of times to Australia. It was quite good. A good trip. Yeah.
BW: How did you find the change from navigating in Lancasters to Mosquitoes? Both aircraft have different, slightly different reputations.
HH: Yes. Well —
BW: What was the experience like for you?
HH: The big, the big thing with the Mosquito was the space. It was the pilot sitting, like a pilot would sit, sit there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: And I would sit here [laughs] and he had all these instruments in front of him. And just down below was the bomb bay. So that, you know, after the space in the Lancaster, you know, a table this size you just had a thing you picked up like that.
BW: A notepad.
HH: It was a chart and everything there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: So it was quite different.
BW: It seems different in the sense that when you were in the Lancaster you would be working as a single navigator.
HH: Yeah.
BW: But yet, when you were in the Mosquito you would be doing two roles because you were the bomb aimer as well.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, we got trained on bomb aiming. Yeah. We got, we did our training, bomb aiming training on Mosquitoes and I remember flying over somewhere in Lincolnshire one day bomb aiming and something happened going towards the target and something happened and the bomb went. The bomb released. And [laughs] you saw it and it landed in a farm yard. So we went back and, you know reported it because there was maybe something wrong with the bombing. Anyhow, the next day we got a phone message from a farmer. He invited us all out for a drink [laughs] Because they’d gone to the farm, they’d apologised. He wanted to know who they were and he invited us all out. Not us but the whole squadron for a drink. So I don’t know what had happened. If he had insurance or something like that.
BW: Was it a practice bomb that had dropped? Or —
HH: A practice bomb. Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Fifteen pounds. You know.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And it just happened to come off the —
HH: Yeah.
BW: Off the release and into the farmyard. What sort of operations were you flying in Mosquitoes then? And how, how different were they to those on the Lancasters?
HH: Well the Mosquitoes we did, I think it was fifteen trips to Berlin. We did nineteen trips altogether and fifteen to Berlin. And it [pause] it was, I don’t know. In some ways it was easier that a Lancaster trip. We never worried we’d take-off. That never worried us. And it was just a case of getting to the target and it was a lot shorter time. Four and a half hours to Berlin and back instead of nine hours. And now, you used to get down, do the bombing and never had any problems.
BW: Were you part of the Pathfinder Force on Mosquitoes?
HH: No. No. Not the Path, no.
BW: Or were you —
HH: We were just ordinary. Yeah. No, we had the Pathfinders in front of us. They dropped the target indicators. And it was, no, it was, I don’t know it was just the two of us there sitting like this, close together. And sitting in there somewhere we left Berlin one night and we were always they always got coned by the searchlights. Every time we went there. And I just, I used to like that because I could see inside the bomb bay, you know. See the bombs and everything. We never minded. And we were coming back out one night and the searchlights, you know and it was no good trying to dodge them and suddenly the searchlights stopped. They all dropped. And I looked. There’s was a blister at the side and I looked behind and I could see lights. Red and green lights and I thought, I said to George, I said, ‘There’s some silly bugger going in there with his lights on.’ I said, I said, ‘No. He’s overtaken us. I said, ‘Direct to starboard. Go.’ And George, and they were pffft. The cannon shells came right across. And one of them took the top off the aircraft. We went down and the searchlights had come on. George got blinded and we were going whoooa and essentially —
BW: Apparently down.
HH: There were, the heavy aircraft were bombing, I forget the name of the place and we could visualise that and he turned and got the aircraft right and then looked at the altimeter and we were only about fifteen hundred feet above the ground and we’d come from twenty four thousand [laughs] Oh God. And anyhow we made it back. And it was years later when I was at the RAF flying college I was reading about, you know this thing and on that night, at that time, at that place, this German fighter that shot down a Mosquito [laughs]. I thought that’s great. It was the exact time and everything as that.
BW: If, if that’s the same account as I read about that was a raid over Potsdam. Near Berlin. Is that right?
HH: No. No. That was. We were at Berlin actually itself.
BW: Berlin itself.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And is it, was it right that the report said it was a Messerschmitt 262. It was a jet. A German jet.
HH: Yeah.
BW: So they were using those as night fighters.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And, and you were very lucky not to have put his bullets into the cockpit.
HH: Yeah. Just lucky we dived in time and just in the, oh and one, one of the bullets had gone through the tail fin. Right through the middle. The next day the ground crew there were sticking sticks through it [laughs] I thought, oh my God, that was close. Yeah. It was nice.
BW: I believe on that, on that particular raid on, as that was happening and you were spinning down you ended up upside down and you were on the, on the canopy.
HH: On the top. Yeah.
BW: So you were being pulled out of your seat.
HH: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BW: While the aircraft is upside down and you were on the canopy trying to get your parachute together. Is that right?
HH: I undid my harness to, to go down and get my parachute and open the bomb doors. Open the exit place. And it wouldn’t open. And so I got back and then I was sitting on the seat and she went pffft. Yeah. On our first Lancaster raid we never got to the target. We lost two of the engines and we had a full bomb load and a fuel load so we turned back and headed for The Wash to jettison the bombs. And the bomb aimer thought, you know, we thought well in case anything happens we’d better get ready to bale out. He couldn’t open the doors. Just, it was the pressure and that, it just wouldn’t open. So if anything had happened we couldn’t have got out. But we jettisoned the bombs over The Wash and then jettisoned some of the fuel because it was a tremendous amount of fuel we carried.
BW: But you managed to land safely.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah. We did. Yeah.
BW: And were you ever caught in searchlights on other raids as well? You mentioned —
HH: Oh yeah. Lots of times. Yeah. Especially on Mosquitoes. Every time we went near the target they picked us up because they had a lot, a lot of searchlights then. But on the Lancaster I think there was only two or three times we got caught in searchlights. Just for a short time.
BW: Did the pilot have to take evasive action?
HH: Well in the Mosquito, we stopped because we couldn’t get out of them. They were, you know coming from all sides and it didn’t matter. On a Lancaster he could get out of them. Yeah.
BW: But you were never intercepted by fighters except for the, for the one occasion.
HH: Except for that once. Yeah. And very lucky.
BW: Were there other raids over France that you, that you recall? You mention one on the —
HH: Vire. Yeah.
BW: Vire Bridge.
HH: The one, the worst one of all was [pause] oh my memory. Starts with an M. It was the marshalling yards in the north of France. Now, what Bomber Command didn’t realise was that the Germans were sending troops up to the battlefield and the big anti-aircraft was based at this railway station. And we went in. If I remember rightly it was ninety five Lancasters from Number 1 Group. And we went in and just it was murder actually. And I think we lost forty nine. It’s all there somewhere. This stuff. Ninety five and we lost about half of them. That German anti-aircraft unit was stationed there and we were, for the Lancaster we were flying, you know at fifteen thousand feet. Which is ideal for them. Yeah. That was a tremendous loss.
BW: There’s a lot of reports I’ve seen of the German anti-aircraft fire being extremely accurate. It was always at the right height.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
BW: But you never got hit yourself.
HH: No. Just that once in a Wellington. You know, that first flight. That’s the only time we got hit.
BW: You mentioned about flying on or around D-Day. Were you flying operations in support of D-Day? Do you remember anything about the build up?
HH: We didn’t know anything about it. D-Day was the 6th of June. We went out to a target in Northern France on the 5th of June but we didn’t know. Nobody knew it was about D-Day. And coming back, on the H2S on the Channel I saw the Channel was full of ships. And I said, ‘It’s the invasion. It’s D-Day,’ and we went back to, to Elsham and they said it’s D-Day in the morning and we just all laughed. And I said we saw them, you know, on the radar. And of course it was. Next day was D-Day. It was tremendous seeing all these ships. Yeah. But then we did our last trip then and that was it.
BW: And so very soon after that you finished flying on Lancasters. Just after D-Day.
HH: Yeah. On D-Day. That was our last trip. Yeah.
BW: And then you changed then to flying Mosquitoes.
HH: Now the pilot, he went back on Lancasters in ’45. Mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner, they both went back on operations ’45. But the wireless operator he just got to a squadron when the war finished. And the flight engineer, he didn’t want to do anymore because he’d got married.
BW: And did they let him? Let him —
HH: He was training. Yeah. He was. Yeah. Oh yeah. He spent his time training.
BW: But all the way through that you managed to keep together as a crew.
HH: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then we met again in 1978. It’s all written down there. It’s a long long story. It was a young chap. He went to Bristol to see the boat racing there. And he was staying the night in a pub and he saw an axe hanging up behind the bar and he asked the barman. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I used to break up aircraft after the war. During the war and after the war. And that’s from one of the aircraft.’ And he says, ‘Oh which aircraft?’ And he said, ‘Oh it’s got on it.’ And the bloke went and found out and it was our aircraft we used to fly in. And he lived in Kent. And he went to an air gunner’s meeting and met our air gunner and said, ‘Do you know, and it was our axe.’ And so from there you know we all got together then. It’s all written down there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Bit by bit we wrote. And then they formed the Elsham Wolds Association. That’s how they got in touch with me from there.
BW: And were there more than one squadron based at Elsham Wolds?
HH: Yeah. Two squadrons there. 576. Was it 103 Squadron, I think? Yeah. I’m not sure. I think it was 103.
BW: And were they both Lancaster squadrons?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
[pause]
BW: And so it seems you’ve had a pretty eventful and successful career and managed to avoid the, sort of impact of anti-aircraft fire.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: And night fighters.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And all the sort of other dangers that people experienced in, and you —
HH: I was really lucky. Yeah. Really, really lucky.
BW: Did you ever know any crews that became prisoners? That had been shot down over France?
HH: Yeah.
BW: Were any captured?
HH: I think it may be in there. If not I’ll —
BW: Ok.
HH: I tried to, there was thirty two of us passed out in South Africa. At the end of the war there was only eleven of us alive and three of these was prisoners of war. I contacted you know because like the magazines, aircraft magazines they used to print losses you know. Who was killed and that. And I used to keep a look out for it all. Yeah. There’s eleven and I met, you know I met all eleven eventually.
BW: So you’ve done a lot of work to keep track of those guys that you met.
HH: Oh yeah. Well that’s —
BW: You keep in touch with them.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And that chance reunion in a pub down south with one of your, was it a bomb aimer who saw the axe over the, over the, at the pub?
HH: No. No. It was another bloke. Just a chap who was out there.
BW: I see.
HH: He lived in Kent and he went, he went to the Air Gunner’s Association because he thought maybe somebody knows about this axe. And he was right. Our mid-upper gunner did. And so it was he was he that formed the Society at Elsham Wolds. John. He’s been here once or twice. John Wiltshire. That was his name.
BW: John Wiltshire. And is he still around? Has he passed?
HH: I don’t know. I don’t know.
BW: Right [pause] Something I’m intrigued about if I could just ask. It’s your nickname. You have a nickname. Sam. Is that right?
HH: Yeah. Well —
BW: How did that come about?
HH: Well when we were going out to South Africa on the boat we used to have drills. You know. We had rifles and bayonets. We used to do drills and one day we were doing a drill and I dropped my rifle. And the course comedian, of course he says, ‘Sam, Sam pick up thy rifle.’ That was a song that was going at the time.
BW: I see.
HH: That stuck with me ever since. ‘Sam, Sam pick up thy rifle.’ [pause] Then when I went to that Canadian OTU I got Jock then. Jock Harris.
BW: Jock Harris. And you have the same surname of course.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: As Bomber Harris.
HH: Yeah. The RAF.
BW: Was that ever put to you? The same nickname or —
HH: No. No. No.
BW: The RAF only had room for one Bomber Harris.
HH: Yeah. Only room for one.
[pause]
BW: Are there any other sort of memorable operations or, or events that perhaps spring to mind?
HH: Let’s think. No. I think we had it very easy really. [pause] No. The first Mosquito operation was fogged-in at base. It was fogged-in and we were running out of fuel and the pilot, George, he’d seen an airfield further back so we went back. We found this airfield and we were just, just wait to land and the engine stopped. Went bump on the runway and the fire brigade and that came out and got us out, you know. Bundled us out the aircraft and left the aircraft on the runway. And Lancasters, it was a Lancaster base and they were circling around the top because they couldn’t land. So we went and got debriefed and went to the mess and were having a cup of cocoa or something and there was a great thump on my shoulders. And I looked around. It was a chap who I lived next door to, we were born within three weeks of each other. We lived next door to each for about fourteen or fifteen years and he was on the one of the Lancasters. And he said, ‘Is that your heap of wood lying out there?’ [laughs]
BW: Is that your heap of wood lying out there?
HH: Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Jim Cassell. He’d got a mighty slap [laughs]
BW: What a way to meet up after living all that time next door to each other.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And then bumping into each other.
HH: Yeah.
BW: Literally in the, in the debriefing room. Which was your favourite aircraft, do you think to fly?
HH: The Lancaster during the wartime. But after that the Britannia was a beautiful aircraft. Yeah. That was the best one. But during the war the Lancaster. Yeah.
BW: You mentioned when you went out to serve with 105 Squadron in the Far East and you continued to stay out in the Far East for about two and a half years. At what stage then did you leave the RAF and what prompted the move?
HH: Oh 1968. I went to [pause] let me see. I left 48 Squadron. Came back to this country. I did a course, instructor’s course and then I instructed people to become navigators. In two places. And then I went to a place where they were training pilots on Meteors. I was a navigation officer and all sort of things. Then I went to RAF flying college as an instructor and was there for a while. Then went on Transport Command on Hastings, Britannias and VC10s.
BW: So you pretty well stayed on multi engine aircraft.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: All the way, all the way through. Even though when you were instructing navigators for Meteors.
HH: Yeah.
BW: You weren’t flying Meteors yourself.
HH: Oh yeah. I flew in Meteors.
BW: You were. Right. You flew Meteors as well.
HH: Yeah. I, one of the blokes, he was a Polish bloke and at that time there were at the Farnborough thing. You know flying an aircraft straight up and then it would sort of come down, you know so he said, he got me flying. He said, ‘We’re going to try that today’ [laughs] We went up and the thing toppled over backwards and I was going to, I said, ‘I’m going to eject,’ and, ‘No. No. No,’ and he pulled it out then.
BW: So instead of going up nice and vertical and coming back tail down there the same axis you fell out backwards.
HH: Yeah. That’s the last time he tried it. Yeah. And I flew with Gus Walker on Canberras at the flying college. We did a trip to the North Pole from Norway but we ran out of oxygen just about seventy miles from the North Pole and we had to come back and we descended to the oxygen level and we landed at this place in Norway, Bardufoss. And as we landed we ran out of fuel and bump. She came down with a crash.
BW: You were very lucky there again.
HH: There. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Just made it home in time.
HH: Just made it.
BW: With no fuel.
HH: Yeah. Gus Walker. He was a really nice bloke. Gus. We were up to the top there once before and the Canberra couldn’t get back in. We were going to land then further south and there was a Hastings there and no pilot except Gus and he’d never flown a Hastings before [laughs] And he says to us, he says, ‘Will it be alright if I fly it? And we said, ‘Yeah. Yeah.’ And he flew it down there. Flew it to Oslo. It was alright. One of the funny things was when we was on Britannias there was a scare over Germany where a German aircraft or something had buzzed a civil aircraft. And somehow it got arranged that newspaper people would come and fly in a Britannia and this sort of thing would be, would be happening. And I was a navigator and Gus Walker was in charge of this lot. And he came up to the flight deck and we were chatting there and forgot all the fact that everything was going through to all the passengers as well [laughs] And then I looked up and I said to the pilot, ‘That’s not the airfield. We’re at the wrong airfield. Another airfield across there.’ And then I thought oh my. And Gus Walker went back and when we landed all the press came out and then one of them come across. He said, ‘That was good. I listened to all that. That was really really good. I enjoyed that.’ But nothing came out in the papers happily.
BW: So you managed to find the right airfield eventually.
HH: Yeah. Gus Walker. Yeah.
BW: Did you come across any famous pilots in the RAF at all? There were well known guys. People like Gibson flew Mosquitoes. Did you ever come across —
HH: Douglas Bader. I met him twice. Once when he was doing the instructing on, just after the war. I met him down south somewhere. And then when I was on 48 Squadron in Singapore he, I don’t know, he came in there to the mess. I don’t know. I can’t remember. And he recognized me in the crowd and I thought [laughs] and everybody’s [pause] yeah. He was a nice bloke.
BW: Ok. Is there anything that you would like to show us on the computer at all. But I think —
HH: I think you’ve got it —
BW: It might be a case of printing it.
HH: I think it’s all on there.
BW: Ok.
HH: Wherever you have it. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: It’s all there. I hope. But if there’s anything else just phone. I’ll get it.
BW: Ok.
HH: I’ll tell you about these logbook pages.
[pause]
BW: Just going to have a look at some logbook pages.
[pause]
BW: We’re just, we’re just looking at one of the logbooks. Would you just describe what it says on the citation there? It’s dated 8th of October 1946. Is that right? At the bottom there.
HH: On 8th October 1946. Yeah. Something Headquarter 46 Group. Letter reference 46 at C250 something, something dated 20th of August 1946.
BW: What does the, so it says at the top. “Incidences of avoidance by exceptional flying skill and judgement of loss or damage to aircraft or personnel.” And it says, “Flying Officer HST Harris DFC, whilst navigation instructor on an Oxford aircraft EB798 during — ”
HH: “Exercise.”
BW: “Exercise.”
HH: “On eureka.”
BW: “On eureka.”
[pause]
HH: “Eureka homings”
BW: “Eureka homings from St Mawgan.”
HH: “From St Mawgan. The starboard engine failed and was feathered by — ”
BW: “By his skill.”
HH: “In operating the radar screen he enabled his pilot to carry out the shortened BABS. Let down.”
BW: “Guidance.”
HH: “And made a good landing in conditions, bad weather and poor visibility after breaking cloud at two hundred and fifty feet with the runway immediately ahead. By his knowledge of his radio aids and his skill in the operation of these he helped his pilot to save the aircraft from —"
BW: “Damage. Saved the aircraft from damage and the crews from —"
HH: “Injury.”
BW: “Injury.”
HH: That’s a long time ago [laughs]
BW: So that —
HH: 1946.
BW: Yeah. That is a citation that was presumably made into your logbook for skill in flying and avoiding an accident and injury to crew.
HH: Yeah.
BW: That’s very unique.
HH: That’s this one here.
BW: Well done.
HH: In six —
BW: So, 608 Squadron.
HH: Downham Market.
BW: Downham Market.
HH: That’s operations. Yeah.
BW: I’ll just pause again while you look for another document.
[pause]
BW: So —
HH: This is a bit here.
BW: So, for your services you were awarded the DFC. Was that because it was standard for aircrew or —
HH: No. It’s —
BW: For people to be awarded after so many missions or was there an act of gallantry.
HH: There wasn’t anything definite. But all pilots, when they did a tour of operations, all pilots automatically got a DFC. But I did fifty operations and I suppose that’s why I got it.
BW: Because you’d done over fifty ops.
HH: Hmmn?
BW: Because you’d done over fifty ops.
HH: No. The war finished then. No. Yeah, I could have done a lot more. Yeah.
BW: It’s quite something though to have come through so many operations. As you said before particularly because so many aircrew were killed during that time.
HH: It was just less than two months ago on the television they were doing some sort of programme and they said only one aircrew member in forty [pause] only one aircrew member in a hundred was it, survived forty operations. I forget the exact number now. I know that was forty operations and there were very few people.
BW: Yeah.
HH: That had done that.
BW: Yeah. That’s quite something. That’s quite an excellent sort of achievement really.
HH: See these things here. You’ve seen them [pause] This. My navigation logs. That’s, I think, I don’t know which aircraft that is. Put that other light on.
BW: So these are on, let’s have a look.
[pause]
BW: So these navigation logs are also recorded in —
HH: Yes.
BW: Wartime service so did you have to fill out effectively two logs.
HH: Some of them. Some of them are. Not all of them I don’t think. I’m trying to see.
BW: You Ok?
HH: Yeah. Where’s the switch? Oh, it’s up here [pause] The light switch is on there.
BW: So did navigators have to fill out another log as well as their own flying log?
HH: No.
BW: For operations.
HH: No.
BW: Or was this just done as an instructor?
HH: This light doesn’t work now. Oh wait a minute. Maybe it does. No. It’s broken. That’s why it’s off. I think the bulbs gone. Yeah. It’s —
BW: It’s alright.
[pause]
BW: Ok.
HH: You’ve got that all on there.
BW: So these records are all on the disc as well.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: It’ll take a lot of printing out.
BW: It looks like it. Yeah.
HH: And that’s.— [pause]
BW: Ok. I’ll just pause the recording while we look through for the documents.
[recording paused]
What I’ll do I’ll end the recording there. We’ve had a look through some documents and photographs of your time in the Far East. So all that’s left to do is, on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre is just to say thank you very much for your time Mr Harris. It’s very good of you.
HH: You’ll find a lot of things in these.
BW: Thank you.
HH: These CDs. Yeah.
BW: Yeah. We’ll arrange to get your CDs and documents copied by one of the other volunteers. They will send somebody out but they weren’t able to do that today. So we’ll sort that out for you. Thank you.
[recording paused]
BW: Very much so. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Harris
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisHST150909
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:19:59 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry ‘Sam’ Harris grew up in Scotland and volunteered for the Air Force. He trained as a navigator in South Africa. On the penultimate day of his training he flew over a multitude of lifeboats bearing the survivors of a torpedoed ship. The next day he flew over a U-Boat above water and the pilot turned the aircraft to attack it. On return to Great Britain he was posted to 576 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds. After his first tour he wanted to continue to fly and was posted to a Mosquito Squadron. He discusses being attacked by a Me 262. He notes that of the thirty two men who passed out with him in South Africa only eleven were left after the war and three of those had been prisoners of war. After the war Harry stayed in the RAF and flew in a wide variety of aircraft.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
South Africa
Arctic Ocean--North Pole
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Scotland--Montrose
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1944
1945
1946
105 Squadron
576 Squadron
608 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
C-47
control caravan
crewing up
debriefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Gee
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
Me 262
Meteor
military living conditions
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
promotion
RAF Downham Market
RAF Elsham Wolds
searchlight
service vehicle
submarine
superstition
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/535/8771/AWarrenHJ160506.1.mp3
786b70fc2ba766c2181f927d741ffae6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Warren, Harold James
H J Warren
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Warren, HJ
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. Two oral history interviews with Harold James Warren (1921 - 2017, 619608 Royal Air Force) service material, a note book, diary and photographs. He Joined the RAF in 1938, and after training as ground crew but remustered and after training in Canada, became a flight engineer.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Harold Warren and catalogued by Peter Adams.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-22
2015-10-30
2016-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name Is Chris Brockbank and today is the 6th of May 2016 and I’m back with Harold Warren in Brackley and his children Mervin and Carol and we’re just doing a re-run on a number of items. So, what I want to talk about is when you were in Canada then you met various people one of whom suggested you might like to fly, I understand. And so on leaving Canada what did you do? If you could just take me on from there please.
HW: Same sort of job that I was doing in this country. Maintaining aircraft mostly.
CB: And what about flying?
HW: Yeah. Got air testing of course.
CB: Yes.
HW: When you done the job they like you to go up in the aircraft that you worked on.
CB: Yeah. Why was that?
HW: Well keep everybody a bit more happy. They’d think, ‘Well if he worked on it he would do the job properly.’
CB: Right.
HW: Which I did in any case.
CB: Yes. But it was a sort of incentive.
HW: That’s right.
CB: In a way.
HW: Yeah.
CB: So when you came back to the UK -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Where were posted to when you returned?
HW: Come back to Bicester, I think.
CB: Yeah.
HW: I reckon so.
CB: And you mentioned that you went on to flying boats.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Where was that? So where did you go on to flying boats?
HW: Scotland.
CB: Right.
HW: Yeah. Greenock.
CB: Greenock. Ok.
HW: Yeah.
CB: And what were you doing with the flying boats there?
HW: Same job.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Flight engineer on those.
CB: So you were flying on them.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
HW: Yeah. Used to from Greenock -
CB: Yeah.
HW: Flew up the north of England.
CB: Yeah.
HW: To Canada.
CB: Right.
HW: Which you had to landing in there.
CB: Yeah.
HW: To refuel.
CB: Yeah.
HW: But er -
CB: And then come back again.
HW: Yeah. Yeah. We couldn’t, we could force the U-boats up.
CB: Yeah.
HW: But we couldn’t take any on board because we hadn’t got room for them.
CB: Right.
HW: So we kept them covered.
CB: Yeah.
HW: And they had a navy ship to come along and take them off, take the prisoners off. Yeah.
CB: So, this particular U-boat, how did you come to capture that?
HW: Well I really, I don’t know quite. It wasn’t my job that. All I know is we made them surface.
CB: Right.
HW: They found some way. I don’t know they did, they had sort of a radar thing [I believe] in those days. It was not a very complicated thing but I mean it was early days then.
CB: Yeah.
HW: And mainly I think they were forced up you see because we dropped, we’d located them someway. I don’t know. That was not my job.
CB: No.
HW: It was the navigator’s job and we forced them up and we dropped the depth charges and they thought they’d better come up and they did. So we kept them covered till we got a navy escort to take them away from us.
CB: So the depth charges made it come to the surface.
HW: Yeah.
CB: How did you know that it was surrendering?
HW: Well I don’t know quite. I think they, when they surfaced I think they were covered by gunfire.
CB: Your gun fire.
HW: Yeah, our gun fire. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Ahum.
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So you had several turrets on the plane.
HW: Eh?
CB: You had several machine gun turrets.
HW: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah. Yeah. One, two, three. About four at least.
CB: Yeah. So the submarine is on the surface. Then what did you do? Did you fly around it or did you land next to it? What did you do?
HW: We landed, we alighted next to it.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Kept them covered by rifle fire and that was it.
CB: And how close did you get to the submarine?
HW: Very close.
CB: Did anybody go on board?
HW: Yeah. I for one.
CB: Oh did you?
HW: Yeah.
CB: Right. So when you got on the submarine -
HW: Yeah.
CB: What did you do?
HW: Just had a good look around.
CB: Ahum.
HW: I found a great, a lovely box of apples [laughs]. So they didn’t stay on the submarine long.
CB: No. What about equipment? Was, what equipment did you find in there that you wanted to remove?
HW: Well we didn’t er see much of that really because we weren’t, we didn’t stay there long on board as we had to come back, still keeping them covered -
CB: Right.
HW: Till we got the navy escort to take them away.
CB: How long did it take for the navy to come?
HW: Not long.
CB: Roughly.
HW: Not long because it was, we, we radioed that we’d got a submarine on the surface.
CB: Yes.
HW: Well before the surface.
CB: Right.
HW: And they had to come and take them off quick.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Because we couldn’t er we couldn’t delay flying.
CB: No.
HW: ‘Cause we hadn’t got enough fuel to take all that, too much mileage so we had to, we had to take off again.
CB: Yeah. So you landed next to it.
HW: Yeah.
CB: So that you could wait for the destroyer. Was it a destroyer or what was it?
HW: Any what?
CB: What kind of ship was it?
HW: I don’t know um I forget the name.
CB: Ok. Do you remember the number of the U-boat?
HW: No.
CB: Right.
HW: No.
CB: And -
HW: [Nearly all U something.]
CB: Yeah, so when you got on the U-boat who, who else came with you?
HW: Um the navigator I think. [knock?] Come in.
Other: Sorry I’ve just got your cups. Sorry. Sorry.
HW: Thank you.
Other: I’ll shut the door for you.
CB: Thanks. The navigator -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. What was his name?
HW: Um I think you’ve got me now. I don’t know.
CB: Ok.
HW: Forget.
CB: Ahum.
HW: Wilson I think.
CB: Ok and how well -
HW: Flying officer Wilson, I think.
CB: Pardon? Flying Officer Wilson.
HW: Ahum.
CB: Ok. And what did he do when he went on the submarine?
HW: Had a look around and we didn’t stop on the sub long. Just had a quick look and come back off it again.
CB: Apart from the apples what else did you remove from the submarine?
HW: Very little. [Nothing at all].
CB: No electronic equipment.
HW: No.
CB: Right. Charts?
HW: Eh?
CB: Did he pick up any charts? What did he pick up?
HW: Maps, I think he got. The navigator picked up.
CB: Yeah.
HW: A compass. [coughing] Yeah. A compass.
CB: A compass.
HW: From memory, he got a compass.
CB: Because, did you, were you able to watch the submarine as soon as it, yourself, as soon as it came to the surface?
HW: Yeah.
CB: And did you see the Germans get out of the submarine?
HW: No. Not as I remember. Not as I remember, ‘cause we had to get ready for another, for our take-off.
CB: Yeah.
HW: And everything.
CB: Do you think -
HW: We had to do checks for take-off.
CB: Right. You had to do your checks for take-off. And did they throw anything overboard? Do you know?
HW: I don’t know. I didn’t see it.
CB: No.
HW: If they did I didn’t see it.
CB: Yeah.
HW: I suppose they did. I don’t know.
CB: Because –
HW: A common thing.
CB: Well, all the submarines had an enigma machine in.
HW: Yeah.
CB: And I just wonder -
HW: Yeah. So I believe.
CB: Yeah. So what date are we talking about now?
HW: Eh?
CB: What date? Roughly
HW: I don’t know.
CB: No.
HW: That’s a long time ago.
CB: Yes. And that, you’ve got a picture of a Sunderland on here.
HW: No. That wasn’t, that’s not a Sunderland.
CB: Oh. Isn’t it?
HW: No. That’s a conversion from a civilian -
CB: Right.
HW: Thing. That was.
CB: Yeah. But you were on Sunderland’s.
HW: Yeah.
CB: And what squadron were you?
HW: Eh?-
CB: What was the squadron number? Yours.
HW: Er pretty low number er eight, eighty four, no. Not as high as that. Eighty something.
CB: Was it?
HW: Eighty one or two.
CB: Ok.
HW: I think.
CB: Ok. And the crew, were they all British or were they a combination?
HW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And you were flying from Scotland.
HW: Yeah. Greenock.
CB: Greenock. Yeah. So when you got back -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Then what happened?
HW: Well, just made our report and everything. Carried out a service on the aircraft ready for the next trip.
CB: Right and um did you get interviewed by the intelligence officer when you returned?
HW: Oh yeah. Yeah. He wanted to know all sorts of things.
CB: Right.
HW: What you saw and, you know, all that sort of thing.
CB: And this was all in daylight.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Did you see the destroyer come alongside the submarine?
HW: Yeah.
CB: Did it arrive while you were there? Did it?
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
HW: Yeah. They soon, they soon took the German crew away.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah.
CB: And do you know what they did with the submarine?
HW: I think they took it back to Greenock or somewhere.
CB: Oh did they?
HW: Yeah. I think so.
CB: They towed it?
HW: Because they wanted to poke about and find different things on it you see. They took it somewhere. I’m not sure where.
CB: But they were able to tow it?
HW: Yeah. They -
CB: Ok.
HW: They had a crew that could understand it, the German submarine -
CB: Yeah.
HW: It was kept on the surface and we just took off and that was it.
CB: Yeah. Right
HW: We didn’t see it anymore.
CB: No. And how -
HW: Took it some experimental place and all that sort of thing.
CB: Right, and can you remember roughly when this was?
HW: [laughs] I can’t. Not really.
CB: Was it the summertime or was it the winter or what?
HW: Er winter I think. Autumn time, something like that I reckon it was.
CB: Ok. And after you’d been on that -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Sortie, did you fly much more after that?
HW: Not a lot. No.
CB: Because they posted you somewhere else? Or what happened?
HW: No. I came back to Bicester.
CB: Came back to Bicester.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Yeah ok. Right.
HW: It was time for demob then of course.
CB: Oh right. Soon after. Yeah. Well, you were demobbed in, a year after the war finished weren’t you?
HW: Eh?
CB: You were demobbed in -
HW: Yeah.
CB: 1946.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
HW: Yeah.
CB: What else do you remember about these trips on the Sunderlands?
HW: Well, all I know, I had a job to do. Make sure, check all the instruments frequently.
CB: Yeah.
HW: To make sure the aircraft engines were working correctly.
CB: Right.
HW: And you’re going from one side of the aircraft to the other. Took you a little while. You had to have a chat on the way of course with everybody else.
CB: Absolutely. Coffee break.
HW: And make a cup of tea. [laughs]
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: How long did it take to fly from Greenock to Canada?
HW: Er a long flight and the Sunderland was about the only aircraft that could do it. About six hours, seven hours, something like that I would think. No. Longer than that. Further than that. If the Sunderland could stay airborne eight, nine hours. It didn’t take quite that long but you had to have a safety margin.
CB: Yeah.
HW: In case you had trouble.
CB: Yeah.
HW: That sort of thing.
CB: How many people in the crew?
HW: Er two pilots, navigator, bomb aimer, flight engineer and two or three miscellaneous people. Gunners and that sort of thing. About eight or nine, I suppose.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah.
CB: So your tasks were to monitor the instruments.
HW: Eh?
CB: Your task -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Was to monitor the instruments.
HW: Yeah.
CB: What else?
HW: Yeah. Yeah. Oil pressure and all that sort of thing.
CB: What about transferring fuel from tanks.
HW: Eh?
CB: Did you have a task to move the fuel between tanks? Did you move petrol from one tank to another?
HW: Yeah. You could do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That er, that applied to most aircraft -
CB: Did it?
HW: During the war. You transferred fuel from one to the other -
CB: Right.
HW: In case you got a leak and you could change it over.
CB: Right.
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So where was most of the fuel stored?
HW: Wings. Yeah. All depends where the tanks were. Some were in the fuselage. Mainly in the wings.
CB: What sort of things went wrong? With the -
HW: Eh?
CB: What sort of things went wrong with the aeroplane?
HW: Oh various things. As I say oil pressure for one thing was a deciding factor whether you could carry on or what. Yeah. There was nothing you could do about oil pressure and that sort of thing if you was out at sea although we did have one or two that were carrying out maintenance. Sort of if you had a snag you could report it back and if you were lucky you might be in flying distance of the servicing aircraft so you’d done very well. Yeah.
CB: So, on these flights you were the only engineer.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Were you kept busy all the time or did you get a bit of a rest?
HW: Yeah. You got a bit of rest but you asked one of the others to keep an eye on things. You were pretty, they all sort of knew what was going on and, you know, you could work with one another and that sort of thing.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah. Well you couldn’t, you had to have a bit of a rest.
CB: Yeah. And when you were flying -
HW: Yeah.
CB: And doing this flight engineer job.
HW: Yeah.
CB: What rank were you?
HW: Yeah, I was a corporal then.
CB: Right.
HW: Promoted to a sergeant.
CB: Oh you were. Right.
HW: You had, you had to be a senior NCO
CB: Yeah.
HW: In case you were taken prisoner ‘cause you were supposed to be taken care of better then.
CB: Right.
HW: Which I doubt [laughs]
CB: So you had the engineer’s brevvy on did you?
HW: Eh?
CB: Did you have on your uniform the -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Engineer’s -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Brevvy?
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And when you went back onto ground work.
HW: Yeah.
CB: You kept your brevvy did you?
HW: Yeah.
CB: And what about your rank? Did you keep your rank?
HW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So, for the rest of the war you were a sergeant.
HW: Yeah. It wasn’t for very long. Soon demobbed.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So how many flying hours do you think you did roughly?
HW: More than I care to think about [laughs]. A lot of them.
CB: Ok. How long were you flying in these aircraft, in the Sunderlands? How many months?
HW: About three I think. Something like that. Maybe more. I don’t know. Maybe less.
CB: Ahum.
HW: Yeah.
CB: And when you started had you volunteered to do it or did they just send you there?
HW: Well depends on what qualification you had and I’d been used to four engine aircraft. Sometimes Lancasters and that sort of thing. Sunderlands. And they had American aircraft, four engine bombers. Worked on those so that’s probably why I ended up like that.
CB: Yeah. When you were in Canada.
HW: Ahum.
CB: Did you start flying there? Or did you -
HW: No, not a lot, only testing aircraft. [testing of course]
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
HW: Yeah. Similar job.
CB: Yeah. So how many big aeroplanes were there -
HW: Yeah.
CB: In Canada?
HW: Yeah.
CB: Were there big ones there?
HW: Er –
CB: Lancasters?
HW: Yeah.
CB: Or American?
HW: The American. Yeah. Yeah. I liked working on the American aircraft.
CB: Why was that?
HW: Well, you had all the tools and everything to do the job. On the RAF you were lucky if you found a screwdriver or a spanner. [laughs] Yeah.
CB: They were that -
HW: Short of equipment and all that sort of thing. The Americans were geared up for that sort of thing.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah.
CB: There was, was there a general shortage in the RAF of tools to do the job was there?
HW: Eh?
CB: Was there a general shortage of tools?
HW: Yeah.
CB: In the RAF.
HW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s err you had to get your finger out and put in a lot of hours.
CB: Yeah. What about the weather?
HW: Weather. Yeah. [Canada was the nicer part of it] and part of it was bloody awful but we carried on just as normal. They didn’t, they ignored the weather over there. They had to carry on. No matter. I mean you couldn’t stop for three or four months while it was bad weather could you?
CB: No.
HW: No. They didn’t.
CB: How deep was the snow?
HW: Oh it varied quite a lot. Depended where you were. Yeah.
CB: And when you were flying, going back to your flying time -
HW: Yeah.
CB: What was the balance between daylight and night flying in the Sunderland?
HW: Quite a difference really. I can’t tell you any [details?] of it but -
CB: Which did you do more of? Daylight or night time flying in the Sunderland?
HW: It varied quite a bit. I mean you might take off in daylight. You end up flying, end up in the dark and then might be the other way about. Yeah.
CB: When you landed next to this submarine because you’d disabled it -
HW: Yeah.
CB: Was that daylight or was that in the night?
HW: Daylight. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah.
CB: And how long did it take you to eat all the apples?
HW: Eh? Oh not long [laughs] yeah. Very good.
CB: Ahum.
HW: Yeah.
CB: So what would you say was the highlight of your time in the RAF?
HW: I don’t know. I had a lot of them I think. That was one of the highlights, I suppose.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Bringing the submarine to the surface.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah. We all cheered then [laughs]. Yeah.
CB: What did the Germans do? Did they stand on the deck or did they keep inside the submarine?
HW: Er well we took them off the submarine.
CB: Oh did you?
HW: Ahum.
CB: On to the Sunderland.
HW: On to the Sunderland. Temporary so that the naval escort could come and pick them up.
CB: Yeah.
HW: ‘Cause they’d already taken the German submarine away.
CB: Oh had they?
HW: Yeah.
CB: Oh right.
HW: Yeah.
CB: Right. So what did you do? Stack them one on top of the other did you in your submarine, in your, in your Sunderland? How did you get them all in?
HW: Get what?
CB: How did you get all these German sailors in your -
HW: Oh.
CB: Sunderland?
HW: Oh there was just room.
CB: There was?
HW: Yeah. They were packed in mind you.
CB: Yeah.
HW: I mean, in one, in one crew and somebody had to cover them with a rifle and machine gun.
CB: Right.
HW: That was it.
CB: Ahum.
HW: Until they were picked up by the navy.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: ‘Cause, their, their officers carried lugers.
HW: Yeah.
CB: So they were confiscated were they?
HW: Yeah. Of course.
CB: Yeah.
HW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And how long were they on your Sunderland would you say?
HW: Not long. A matter of hours.
CB: Ahum.
HW: Yeah.
CB: But you didn’t let them have any of the apples.
HW: Managed two or three [laughs]
CB: Right. What was the worst thing that happened to you in the RAF?
HW: I don’t know. I can think of quite a few.
CB: What, in those early days? Or -
HW: What?
CB: Later.
HW: I think the worst one is when we, the first job we went, we went to France early -
CB: Yeah.
HW: In the war. Well about the first day of the war and it was a waste of time. We’d got nothing to, no airc, couldn’t, as I say we got nothing. No armaments. Hardly anything. But we, gradually, we were about stationed mid-France, can’t think of the name now. No end of them. And we were gradually forced up to the north towards Dunkirk which we had to be evacuated and I think that was about the worst bit I come across. Yeah. We were evacuated Dunkirk. Come back to this country on a little boat.
CB: Oh, did you?
HW: Yeah.
CB: Did you have to wade out to that or did you get on to it or from one of the moles?
HW: Eh?
CB: Did you have to wade out through the water to the boat or were you put on -
HW: Some did. Some didn’t. It just depends. Yeah. I didn’t. In fact a boat come in to the shore more or less and got them on board but some had to wade out to them. ‘Cause there weren’t many rescue boats about then.
CB: Yeah.
HW: No.
CB: Ok. Harold, thank you very much indeed.
HW: You’re welcome.
CB: That was really helpful.
HW: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold James Warren. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWarrenHJ160506
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Continuing of interview with H J Warren. Includes descriptions of encountering submarines when flying from RAF Greenock.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
Scotland--Greenock
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
1946
Format
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00:27:35 audio recording
aircrew
flight engineer
ground crew
RAF Bicester
RAF Greenock
submarine
Sunderland
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/461/8278/PPalaG1801.2.jpg
8dd6bb4dbb46caa801bc3b06ea99a279
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/461/8278/APalaG180305.2.mp3
d4dc4f8ed99369488e8ee65ef3fd2fbf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pala, Gavino
Gavino Pala
G Pala
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Gavino Pala who recollects his wartime experiences in Alghero and surrounding areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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2018-03-05
Identifier
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Pala, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SU: Sono Stefano Usai per l’International Bomber Commando Centre, stiamo intervistando ad Alghero il Dott. Pala Gavino in data 5 Marzo 2018, è presente durante l’intervista il Sig. Pala Giovanni. Buongiorno Sig. Pala, mi può raccontare come viveva la sua famiglia prima della guerra e come cambiò la vostra vita durante il conflitto?
GP: Allora, prima della guerra eravamo nove fratelli, mio padre era direttore didattico, capo di istituto qui, dal ’39 dal 1939, mia madre insegnante elementare, io frequentavo il ginnasio. Non frequentavo il liceo, perché il liceo, Alghero non c’era liceo, il liceo l’ho frequentato, lo frequentai a Sassari dopo il ‘43 quando conseguii la maturità, la maturità, cioè no la maturità, il diploma di licenza ginnasiale, finito.
SU: [chuckles] Quindi, quando iniziò la guerra ci furono dei cambiamenti rispetto, rispetto a prima?
GP: Quando iniziò la guerra, io ero già al ginnasio, ricordo i bombardamenti dell’aeroporto, gli allarmi, si andava ci si rifugiava, come rifugio antiaereo c’era la torre di Sulis, tutta la scuola andava li. Poi la notte del, poi il bombardamento più grave lo abbiamo avuto, c’è stato qualche mitragliamento su barche di pescatori, periodo precedente, magari erano dei ricognitori che volevano seminare il terrore, ma il bombardamento principale è avvenuto il 17 maggio del 1943, lo ricordo benissimo perché le scuole in tempo di guerra chiudevano il 15 maggio, il 15 maggio abbiamo dovuto… abbiamo chiuso il liceo, il ginnasio pardon, abbiamo chiuso il ginnasio e come dire, la promozione dalla quinta ginnasio alla prima liceo classico ed eravamo il giorno successivo, cioè il 16 ed il 17, eravamo degli studenti sbandati, cioè già con la licenza ginnasiale in tasca ma gironzolavamo per la città e ricordo questo particolare che il giorno del bombardamento, il giorno precedente il bombardamento, che è avvenuto il 17, il 16 passeggiavamo sul lungo mare e abbiamo visto tre navi che sottocosta andavano verso il sud e abbiamo pensato, probabilmente stanno portando dei rinforzi, la prima sembrava un motopeschereccio/guardiacoste, le altre due erano navi oneraiche [onerarie] e andavano verso il sud, verso la Tunisia dove c’erano gli ultimi… gli ultimi… gli ultimi difese… gli ultimi, sì gli ultimi combattimenti…
SU:Sacche di resistenza…
GP: Le ultime sacche di resistenza italiane! Questo il giorno prima il 16, il 17 mattina abbiamo salutato, ci siamo salutati perché alcuni di questi rientravano a Cagliari, erano figli di, erano due… uno/due, due nostri colleghi, uno di sicuro un compagno di scuola della quinta ginnasio era nipote di un ufficiale dell’esercito, Cagliaritano, che viveva qui e quindi gli ha, l’ufficiale ha fatto venire questo suo nipote per poter frequentare il liceo, il ginnasio, il liceo ginnasio qui ad Alghero. Bene, il 17 che era il 17 Gennaio, il 17 pardon, il 17 Luglio al mattino, noi abitavamo in la via principale via Sassari, al primo piano, abbiamo visto una fiumana di persone che passavano andando verso la campagna, con materassi, cuscini, coperte e ci siamo meravigliati, ho detto “cosa?’. Allora abbiamo chiesto “Che cosa?’, “Devono bombardare ad Alghero’. La mattina si è sparsa la voce che avrebbero bombardato Alghero la notte e la maggior parte della popolazione, soprattutto i più, i più indigenti, ecco i più poveracci con coperte e materassi andavano a dormire negli oliveti.
È stato un, mio padre era capo, aveva la scuola, ma dice “ma questi sono tutti matti, sono fuori di testa loro’, comunque mio padre era in lezione didattica al palazzo delle elementari attuale, che ha costruito mio nonno oltretutto, era il 1902-1903, ed ad un certo punto abbiamo visto il segretario politico, allora si chiamava così il segretario responsabile del partito nazionale fascista, il segretario politico, il podestà, il podestà era il sindaco di allora, il Vescovo Monsignor Sciuchini, li abbiamo visti in via Sassari andare verso le campagne accompagnati da dei vigili urbani per convincere la popolazione a rientrare, perché si era sparsa la voce che Alghero l’avrebbero bombardata la notte. E’ una cosa stranissima, poi a cose fatte abbiamo capito come cosa era successo e c’è tutto un romanzo, c’è da parlare per settimane. Comunque, rientra la popolazione e la notte suona l’allarme, come suona l’allarme immediatamente abbiamo sentito le bombe, no, prima andava suonato l’allarme, ma l’allarme dopo i primi scoppi, dopo un po’ hanno, abbiamo sentito le esplosioni delle bombe e diverse bombe sono cadute vicino a casa nostra e c’era la palestra dove adesso c’è quell’edificio commerciale, la palestra delle scuole elementari, li c’erano i cosi, i ricoveri antiaerei, fatti abbastanza bene, cioè la bomba doveva cadere sul ricovero altrimenti perché erano, erano praticamente dei tunnel scavati a zigzag con all’interno paraschegge per cui nell’eventualità che una bomba fosse caduta sul… sul rifugio, sul ricovero antiaereo avrebbe al massimo ucciso quelle poche persone c’erano sul posto e le altre si sarebbero salvate. Diverse bombe sono cadute li in palestra, senza conseguenze per le persone. È successo questo, che in Sardegna c’era allora il CAT, Corpo Aereo Tedesco, ad Alghero, Alghero era un ottimo, c’era un ottimo aeroporto, da qui partivano gli aerei Italiani e Tedeschi per bombardare Gibilterra, era il… era un grosso campo, un campo di aviazione molto importante e quindi hanno cercato gli Inglesi… gli Inglesi, gli Inglesi bombardavano di notte e gli Americani bombardavano di giorno.
Questi dopo il tramonto, abbiamo sentito queste prime bombe e l’allarme, questi aerei inglesi hanno cercato di entrare nell’aeroporto per bombardare l’aeroporto cioè hanno lanciato, lanciavano delle bombe, non bombe gigantesche ma bombe di piccolo, di piccolo e medio calibro per distruggere gli hangar e gli aerei a terra. Come si dice, l’aeroporto c’era la difesa aerea tedesca, la contraerea tedesca, non ricordo come si chiamasse non era CAT, vabbè , i Tedeschi avevano, l’aeroporto era gestito da Italiani e Tedeschi, cioè Italiani e Tedeschi ed i Tedeschi hanno provveduto alla difesa contraerea dell’aeroporto e questo lo abbiamo visto a distanza di anni e avevano creato tutto intorno all’aeroporto una barriera di pezzi di artiglieria contraerea e durante quando c’è stata l’incursione degli… degli Inglesi i Tedeschi erano già avvisati perché avevano sull’estremità di Punta Giglio un… un radar, noi non sapevamo niente, noi Italiani, non sapevamo cosa fosse neanche un radar neanche un idea. Quindi avevano già captato l’arrivo di questi Inglesi e quando sono arrivati sull’aeroporto hanno trovato una una muraglia di fuoco contraereo, gli ha impedito non solo, non un solo aereo inglese anche salendo di quota a lanciare una bomba dentro l’aeroporto e come succede in tutti in tutti… in tutti… in tutti i raid militari una volta che gli aerei, gli aerei militari aerei, una volta che gli aerei partono con delle bombe assolutamente non devono ritornare con le bombe a bordo perché è pericolosissimo, quindi devono con le buone o con le cattive sganciare le bombe su un altro obiettivo. Quindi anziché sganciarle in mare come facevano, hanno fatto altre volte, gli Inglesi erano più parsimoniosi, le bombe che non sono riusciti a lanciare sull’aeroporto perché c’era la contraerea la CAT, no corp… , sapevo il nome della… la flak, credo fosse la flak, flak la contraerea Tedesca, la flak glielo ha impedito e le bombe le hanno lanciate sulla città, sulla città ed hanno fatto un disastro, hanno centrato la cattedrale, hanno distrutto…, hanno centrato la il seminario, hanno centrato il palazzo vescovile, hanno centrato la chiesa di San Michele, sembrava c’è l’avessero con le chiese.
Quindi questo è il coso del bombardamento, quindi l’indomani mattina siamo andati in giro a vedere un po’, io ho visto proprio davanti, nel tratto di Alghero è pratico lei si? Ecco tra il mercato di Alghero e le scuole elementari costruite da mio nonno ai primi del ‘900 , c’era l’asfalto e io ricordo che la mattina che trovavamo i proiettili delle mitragliatrici che avevano segnato sull’asfalto una tratteggiatura una ticchettatura, ta, ta, ta, ta, e abbiamo girato, siamo andati a vedere, c’era in via Carlo Alberto, c’erano montagne di detriti, case accatastate cioè. Comunque l’indomani mattina, che è la cosa più allucinante, il prefetto, il prefetto di Sassari anziché mandare squadre di, c’era la… come cavolo si chiamava… UNPA, l’UNPA era una specie di organizzazione civile che dipendeva dal prefetto, Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea dove c’erano volontari e non volontari che andavano ad operare dove era successo un bombardamento, per… per tirare fuori le salme e se possibile salvare prima i vivi e poi i morti.
Quindi la cosa allucinante è stata che l’indomani mattina, il prefetto al posto di mandare squadre dell’UNPA a liberare i morti o gli agonizzanti sotto le macerie, ha mandato dei funzionari degli agenti del controspionaggio per capire chi avesse sparso la voce la mattina che Alghero sarebbe stata bombardata la notte. Ed è una notizia confermata dai fatti. Io poi ho avuto, adesso non so se faccia bene o male a dirlo ma, io avevo io ho fatto il ginnasio ad Alghero, l’assistente… l’insegnante di religione del ginnasio era Schirru, il fratello di quello che era stato fucilato perché aveva tentato di assassinare Mussolini, tutto il resto della famiglia di questo Schirru aveva chiesto perdono a Mussolini e avevano chiesto di cambiare cognome, questo invece che era un dritto e la pensava come il fratello assassinato fucilato, si è fatto prete senza avere vocazione, come prete lui era intoccabile e questo per la cronaca, dopo il bombardamento noi siamo andati via, finito insomma quando poi c’è dopo l’armistizio siamo rientrati e ad Alghero, l’Aeroporto di Alghero era importantissimo perché partivano gli aerei inglesi ed americani dall’ aeroporto di Alghero per bombardare i pozzi petroliferi in Romania, Ploesti, era più comodo farli partire da Alghero che non dalla Francia, la Francia la Francia era occupata dai Tedeschi, che non dalla Sicilia, quindi l’Aeroporto di Alghero era utilissimo per questo e c’erano ufficiali dell’aeronautica inglese, ufficiali dell’aeronautica americana.
Guarda caso io noi abitavamo in via Sassari n. 8, in via Sassari n. 6 abitava cioè la porta dopo abitava Don Schirru, il mio insegnante di religione e regolarmente non appena arrivati gli Americani e gli Inglesi, tutte le sere c’era la camionetta inglese davanti alla casa di questo Schirru, scendevano gli ufficiali a parlottare con lui. Niente di improbabile, questo è una supposizione mia ma condivisa da tanti altri, niente di improbabile che Don Schirru, che era notoriamente antifascista, avesse nella… era pieno di quattrini, aveva comprato delle campagne, avesse qualche ricetrasmittente in campagna dove avesse saputo, questo lo dicevano tutti non ero… dove saputo con certezza che la notte avrebbero bombardato Alghero. Quindi questo ha sparso la voce e la popolazione stava, è andata, molti sono rimasti in campagna dopo che sono andati via, per paura delle bombe, quelli che sono tornati sono rimasti sotto sotto le macerie. Sono rimasti più uccisi dalle case vecchie che crollavano sotto le bombe che non dalle bombe stesse. E questo lo abbiamo notato noi, che questi ufficiali inglesi dell’aeronautica veniva che venivano a prendere lezioni di italiano da mio padre, gli ho raccontato l’episodio di mio fratello Tony, Antonio, sistematicamente tutte le sere, avevano una macchina loro, si fermavano a casa, via Carlo Alberto... via Sassari n. 6 dove abitava Schirru e salivano li a parlottare e a complottare. Questo è il bombardamento di Alghero, poi noi l’indomani abbiamo, mio padre allora, autocarri non ce ne erano erano solo gli autocarri militari, c’erano stati requisiti, hanno preso dei carri a cavallo, delle tumbarelle le chiamano così e hanno caricato i mobili essenziali e ci siamo trasf… e siamo sfollati a Villanova anche perché c’era il rischio il pericolo che i bombardamenti una volta iniziati continuassero, ecco.
SU: Lei in prima persona, da ragazzo come ha vissuto il bombardamento?
GP: Io l’ho vissuto così con un senso di, il bombardamento abbiamo sentito prima l’esplosione delle prime bombe poi ha suonato la sirena e ci siamo messi dal al piano terra come consigliato, piano terra nella famiglia, presso la famiglia che abitava al piano terra, sotto gli architravi, finestre chiuse, porte aperte per evitare che l’esplosione e abbiamo aspettato la fine del bombardamento, che poi è stato un bombardamento lunghissimo ad ondate successive, hanno bombardato hanno scaricato le bombe sulla città, le bombe destinate all’aeroporto, io ho visto le bombe alcune bombe inesplose li in palestra l’indomani ed erano bombe di piccole, non lo so bombe d’aereo di queste dimensioni qui con gli alettoni o i governali non so come si chiamino, la.
SU: Mi raccontava prima invece del rapporto che aveva con gli aviatori tedeschi, che erano di stanza ad Alghero e quello successivo invece con gli aviatori inglesi da settembre in poi.
GP: Con gli aviatori inglesi io ero già, con gli aviatori inglesi erano gentili soprattutto con noi con mio padre perché mio padre gli insegnava a parlare l’italiano e mio fratello Antonio quando i due ufficiali inglesi lasciavano la macchina davanti a casa, saliva sulla jeep e la metteva in moto.
SU: Quindi non c’era mai stato un sentimento di, come dire, rabbia nei confronti delle stesse persone che avevano bombardato la città?
GP: Ma certamente non c’era simpatia ma era la guerra, non, cioè c’era un, non c’era dell’odio, c’era una specie di odio contro la fatalità contro il destino anche perché, adesso questo non so se interessi, noi io sono stato fortunato che sono nato ad ottobre, ad Alghero vigeva la leva di mare quindi i marinai andavano in marina a 18 anni, anzi l’esercito a 18 anni in tempo di guerra, in marina andava a 17 anni, io sono nato ad ottobre, marina partivano a 16 militare, tant’è vero che ho avuto in cura io quando ero in urologia, uno che un mio coetaneo del ’27 nato a gennaio, adesso non so se interessi ma è storia.
SU: Sì, sì
GP: L’ho visitato, ho raccolto la storia… questo è un mio coetaneo, non gli ho detto niente, si io sono ferito malattia muta, io sono ferito in guerra, gli ho detto “in guerra ha toccato qualche esplosivo?’ “No no Io ero in guerra in guerra’ ed io “come in guerra?’ si ha detto “Perché sono Algherese e sono nato a febbraio e sono partito nel ’43 in marina’ e allora gli ho detto “racconta, io sono coetaneo’ ho detto “coetaneo?’ [GP] “Sì’ ho detto “di Alghero?’ “di Alghero’ ‘e non è partito?’ “no io sono nato ad ottobre’, perché l’armistizio è avvenuto a settembre “lei è stato fortunato’ mi ha detto, dottò. Comunque mi ha raccontato di questo, adesso non so se ti può interessare perché questa è, questo aveva una ferita alla gamba, zoppicava, mi ha detto “Noi al momento dell’armistizio eravamo nei…’ era nei sommergibili, in genere i, gli ultimi arrivati, le reclute della marina soprattutto provenienti da zone di mare li mettevano come come mozzi nei sommergibili perché erano più piccoli si muovevano meglio negli anfratti, era nei sommergibili nell’atlantico. Nel golfo di Biscaglia c’è una, Bordeaux mi sembra ci fosse, una base fortissima, Bordeaux dove c’erano una decina di sommergibili Italiani e questo questo posso dirlo perché me lo ha raccontato lui e mi ha detto “E li sono stato ferito con durante bombardamenti Americani ad una gamba, ferito dopo l’armistizio eh’ e ho detto “Come dopo l’armistizio?’ “Eh Dottò’ mi ha detto “Al momento dell’armistizio ci ha chiamato all’adunata il, l’ammiraglio l’ammiraglio in capo ci ha inquadrati “Ragazzi noi ci troviamo, io ho giurato fedeltà al Re, sono monarchico sfegatato però sua maestà il Re Imperatore purtroppo da questo da questi guai non ci può togliere, io ho deciso per me, ognuno di voi decida per se, se aderire alla Repubblica Sociale o se considerarci prigionieri di guerra, i Tedeschi non ci considerano prigionieri di guerra, ci considerano internati’ ha detto “e ci manderanno sapete dove? Sul fronte russo a scavare trincee, se e quindi quelli che si salvano dalle bombe o dai bombardamenti Russi, sovietici e vengono catturati, i Russi li passano immediatamente per le armi, li fucilano subito perché, quando sanno che siamo Italiani li fucilano, perché dice voi state collaborando coi Tedeschi quando il vostro governo ha già…’ ha detto “ma qui siamo come prigionieri di guerra’ erano le mansioni che svolgevano i prigionieri di guerra quella di scavare trincee, picco pala e carriola, ha detto “Io ho giurato fedeltà al Re, per l’Imperatore Re Imperatore’, ha fatto si è fatto un panegirico del Re, ha detto purtroppo ha fatto questa scelta, lui ha fatto questa scelta io faccio la mia scelta, ognuno di voi è libero di scegliere ha detto “Se aderiamo ai Tedeschi avremo il riconoscimento come militari, qualunque cosa ci succeda anche a distanza, siamo sempre feriti di guerra e abbiamo diritto alla pensione, se invece decidiamo di aderire al governo Badoglio ci mandano, faremo una brutta fine’ e dice li ho detto “Abbiamo i sommergibili Italiani li, qui voi continuerete a combattere con la bandiera Italiana col fascio littorio in mezzo’ e mi ha detto “Io ho accettato e sono rimasto ferito e avevo la pensione di guerra come armacorp ‘e mi ha detto che nello sbarco in Normandia, quando è stato lo sbarco in Normandia, mi ha detto una spiaggia, la spiaggia di Omaha mi sembra dove gli Americani sono stati messi male, è stata la spiaggia dove rischiavano, dice mi ha detto lui, non lo dice nessuno mi ha detto “Dottò nella spiaggia di Omaha dove gli Americani rischiavano di essere buttati in mare li, c’erano 2500 marinai nostri Italiani nelle forze armate tedesche’ che erano suoi colleghi li alla base di Bordeaux che avevano accettato facciamo i militari riconosciuti dal punto di vista anche dalla convenzione di Ginevra, portavano l’uniforme e ha detto “Ce sono, gli Inglesi gli Americani avrebbero perso l’unica spiaggia di Omaha dove stavano, stavano andando male proprio per merito del degli Italiani che, i marinai Italiani’. Questo me lo ha raccontato uno, uno che ho medicato. Bene questo, per inciso, io sono un po’ confusionario parlo un po’ di qua un po’ di là.
Poi quindi questo, uno di questi ufficiali inglesi che venivano ad imparare l’italiano da mio padre, gli faceva lezioni, quando venivano portavano tavolette di cioccolato come per i ragazzi, oh io ero il primo di dieci figli, c’erano nove fratelli c’erano da sfamare. Tavolette di cioccolato, biscotti, razioni K ecc…. Questo ufficiale inglese parlava nelle sue lettere, scriveva al in famiglia che aveva trovato una famiglia molto numerosa dove c’era un figlio, che uno di questi che si chiamava Tony e li aveva accompagnati per vedere la città. Era senza far niente mio fratello, Antonio era del ’30 quindi aveva 3 anni in meno di me, io facevo il liceo a Sassari e lui con questi qui per due anni e dice che questi sono venuti, questi Inglesi son venuti per vedere la sua la tomba del figlio, il posto dove è caduto il figlio su Monte Doglia, hanno in base alle leggi inglesi sulle onoranze funebri ai caduti hanno riportato la salma in Inghilterra e hanno chiesto al maresciallo Baita, il comandante alla stazione dei carabinieri di Alghero che, oltre tutto curiosa la cosa, era consuocero di mio padre, perché una figlia del maresciallo Baita aveva sposato Antonio / Tony e quindi hanno chiesto al maresciallo Baita di, che volevano salutare questa famiglia di cui il loro figlio negli scritti ne parlava diceva un gran bene, una famiglia numerosa un capo di istituto e il maresciallo “Quello è mio consuocero’ ha detto “Sì, sì’ allora questi Inglesi avevano, non sapevano dire una parola di Italiano niente solo inglese e avevano un interprete uno che faceva l’interprete, sono venuti hanno salutato mio padre son venuti hanno voluto vedere la casa che che lui gli descriveva, lo studio dove mio padre gli insegnava l’italiano a questi a questi due ufficiali inglesi e poi volevano vedere se potevano salutare Tony, Tony Tony mio padre gli ha detto “Mio figlio è a Cagliari sta facendo l’università in ingegneria’, sia ha fatto dare si han fatto dare l’indirizzo, sono andati a Cagliari, hanno trovato mio fratello Antonio l’hanno inviato a cena, un pranzo hanno fatto un pranzo nel miglior ristorante di Cagliari e l’hanno salutato con baci e abbracci pregandolo di andare a trovarli, gli han dato l’indirizzo per andarli a trovare in Inghilterra. Poi mio fratello ha pensato a laurearsi e poi a svolgere, adesso non per vantarmi ma mio fratello era un intelligenza superiore alla media, Antonio, si è laureato in ingegneria a Cagliari senza incozzi e senza…, è diventato l’ingegnere, il direttore del più grande acquedotto d’Italia, l’acquedotto del Flumendosa. Eh l’acquedotto l’ha condotto mio fratello Antonio era il direttore del, quando è andato in pensione, il direttore dell’acquedotto del Flumendosa.
Quindi mio fratello non c’è potuto andare in Inghilterra a trovare i familiari di questo Tony, di questo ufficiale inglese.
SU: Mi raccontava invece prima, che durante l’intervista non lo abbiamo detto, degli aviatori invece tedeschi, che mi diceva erano comunque delle persone molto acculturate.
GP: Gli ufficiali, gli ufficiali ecco questo particolare, gli ufficiali mentre i militari tedeschi come diceva Hitler avevano tutti, il soldato di fanteria aveva il bastone di maresciallo nello zaino, questa battuta se la ricorda si? Cioè per dire uno, un soldato purché valoroso se valoroso, coscienzioso, con senso del dovere e con spirito di ingegnosità e spirito di sacrificio poteva diventare generale, da soldato poteva diventare generale. Per l’aeronautica non era così, non c’era l’ignorante che potesse diventare pilota di aerei, era un pilota di aereo che aveva una sua preparazione, una sua cultura, una sua esperienza, fondamentali. Quindi, questi ufficiali che venivano da noi per Algh… al ginnasio erano persone coltissime, venivano a consultare testi latini del ginnasio, nella cui biblioteca allora c’era stata la, era la biblioteca del ginnasio era ricchissima perché con la legge Sicardi, quelle che hanno espropriato i beni della chiesa tutta la biblioteca dei, dei dei dei padri, della chiesa di San Michele, era passata era incamerata nel ginnasio per evitare che venisse buttata via. Mia nonna per esempio, nonna Sotgiu, la chiesa di San Michele non la chiamava la Chiesa di San Michele, lei parla Algherese, sì? Ecco diceva, la chiesa del collegio, la chiesa del collegio, perché c’era il collegio dei Gesuiti. Mia nonna, la chiesa del collegio, collegio San Michele e la piazza del ginnasio dove c’è scritto piazza del ginnasio era la piazza del collegio, mia nonna chiamava la piazza del ginnasio piazza del collegio, quindi c’era questo e quando c’è stato con la legge Sicardi, credo siano state le leggi che hanno incamerato i beni della chiesa, c’era questa biblioteca dei sacerdoti, dei dei Gesuiti di San Michele e ad un certo punto, parte li avranno distrutti e parte li hanno messi nella biblioteca del ginnasio e quindi c’erano dei testi latini interessantissimi, ecco perché questi ufficiali tedeschi nelle ore libere venivano ad aggiornarsi, chiedevano il permesso ed erano correttissimi. Altro poi non, altre domande da fare ?
SU: No, in realtà no, se voleva aggiungere qualche altro particolare su quel periodo, se si ricorda ad esempio, avevate problemi ? Era cambiato qualcosa nel mangiare, nel reperire alcune particolari cose, difficoltà in generale?
GP: Il mangiare c’era la fame, chi ci ha tolta la fame sono stati i nonni degli Spanedda di qua, che avevano il mulino e questo ogni tanto buscava 1 o 2 Kg di semola di grano messa da parte e andavo io con la la borsa da studente, studente al ginnasio quarto, terza quarta e quinta ginnasio, con questa borsa e mi metteva dentro un sacchetto con 3 Kg 4 Kg di semola ed era la cena per tutta la famiglia. Il padre è stato, il signor Spanedda, non mi ricordo il nome, bravissimo eh. Questo particolare, poi altre volte riuscivamo attraverso, mia madre riusciva ad avere attraverso amicizie eccetera del grano, del grano 5 Kg di grano per volta, io avevo l’abbonamento ferroviario perché viaggiavo a Sassari, ero iscritto alla prima alla prima liceo poi alla seconda poi alla terza liceo e andavo con la sera andavo con la mia borsa da studente con i miei 5 Kg di grano ad Olmedo, scendevo li andavo da delle maestre elementari e lasciavo la borsa li, queste la prendevano e la portavano dallo dal nipote del loro padrone di casa che aveva un frantoio, aveva un mulino, macinava questo grano si tratteneva la crusca e mi dava 5 Kg o 6 Kg, forse mi dava 3 kg e mezzo di farina e con quella facevamo il pane.
SU: Va bene.
GP: Erano anni di fame!
SU: Grazie, no dica dica.
GP: No no, sto pensando, a pensarci bene sono uno dei pochi superstiti e a 90 anni non sono tutti che sono arrivati. Sì, altro è stato, mi ricordo questo anche che dopo i 16 anni, vediamo ’43, dopo i 15 anni si entrava nella premilitare, un addestramento premilitare, moschetto ’91 di quelli a baionetta reclinabile ed eravamo andati nel marzo, febbraio, marzo, febbraio marzo del ’43 a Sassari per 5, 4/5 giorni alloggiati in una la cosiddetta caserma Bruno Mussolini sono andato, di Sassari è pratico? La chiesa di San Giuseppe c’è l’ha presente? Di fronte ci sono delle scuole, quella era la caserma dell’Opera Balilla, l‘hanno trasformata in scuola, c’era un salone c’era… abbiamo siamo rimasti alloggiati li e poi andavamo alla colonia 9 maggio, lo sa dove è a Sassari la colonia 9 maggio ? Andando verso Sorso, lasciando la città ad un certo punto si entra in un una vecchia colonia, era la colonia 9 maggio, adesso non so come la chiamino, hanno aperto la strada di questa cosa, era una colonia dell’Opera Balilla dove, facevamo i tiri abbiamo fatto i tiri con il moschetto ’91, però erano pallottole da esercitazione, davano il contraccolpo sulla spalla molto più delicato e dolce che non la pallottola. E ricordo quel particolare li, che rientrando i da premilitari, i più grandi della premilitare ricordo cantavano questa “E se vengono in Sardegna romperemo culo e fregna’ questa battuta cosi, era fra le tante canzoni, avevamo 15 anni, si 15 i 16 li ho compiuti ad ottobre dopo l’armistizio e mi è andata bene.
SU: Va bene, grazie mille.
GP: Se ha qualche altra domanda.
SU: No, in realtà abbiamo affrontato le principali tematiche.
GP: L’ho annoiato anche troppo.
SU: No, no, la ringrazio ancora.
GP: La mattina, la mattina del 18, la mattina successiva, Pippo Ruchi che poi è diventato medico a Cagliari, ottimo medico, il figlio era il nipote di quell’ufficiale.
SU: Ah sì, sì.
GP: Era ospite, doveva partire a Cagliari ed ha trovato la stazione ferroviaria bombardata e mi ha raccontato poi, ci siamo sentiti per telefono o per lettera che hanno preso la stazione, han preso il treno all’altezza della chiesa di San Giovanni, c’è l’ ha presente? Quindi la stazione arrivava, il treno arrivava davanti davanti all’asilo infantile, gli ho chiesto come hai fatto? Mi sono dovuto portare il bagaglio, valigie ed altre cose sino alla, oltre la chiesa di San Giovanni a piedi perché la stazione era dissestata, avranno bombardato anche la stazione, avevano bombardato dappertutto. Bene, Giovà chiedi a mamma se ha qualcosa da offrire.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gavino Pala
Description
An account of the resource
Gavino Pala reminisces about his childhood in Sardinia, describing schooling and paramilitary training. Recollects the 17 May 1943 Alghero bombing, explaining how part of the population had left the city the day before and slept among olive trees, following hearsay about the imminent attack. Explains how authorities delayed the deployment of civil defence squads and sent instead secret service officers to find out who started the rumours. Maintains that Father Schirru manned a clandestine radio station and was informed in advance by the Allies. Explains how the primary target was the nearby military airfield but the German radar at Punta Giglio gave the alarm, the attack was contrasted by heavy anti-aircraft fire, and bombers headed to Alghero as a target of opportunity. Describes the ensuing widespread damage; mentions the black market and evacuation. Describes properly designed underground shelters, consisting of a network of tunnels divided into various subsections, in order to mitigate the effects of a direct hit. Recounts the story of a fellow citizen who was posted in Bordeaux as submariner, opted to join the German forces after the fall of the fascist regime, and ended up at Omaha beach during the Normandy landings. Speaks favourably of some well-mannered Luftwaffe officers who spent their free time reading Latin books in his school library. Mentions his friendly relationships with British personnel, despite having being bombed by the Allies, and recounts a post-war reunion with one officer. Elaborates on the bombing war pointing out his fatalistic attitude.
Creator
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Stefano Usai
Date
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2018-03-05
Format
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00:39:47 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Alghero
France
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Temporal Coverage
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1943-05-17
Identifier
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APalaG180305
PPalaG1801
Contributor
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Stefano Usai
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
radar
shelter
submarine
Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/634/8904/PRobinsonD1601.1.jpg
6f5724486c610bd863a402940f8cc060
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/634/8904/ARobinsonD160911.2.mp3
4f37bc0e490f864de3f1ed0ae6cedfbd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Robinson, Douglas
D Robinson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Robinson, D
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Robinson (1922 - 2017 1215638, 170413 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 158 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Douglas Robinson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DR: Unfortunately, when I came to Oundle people started calling me Dougie and if I, if there’s one thing -
GR: You don’t like. Yeah.
AM: Right. We won’t do that. Right. Here goes then. So, my name’s Annie Moody and I’m a volunteer with the International Bomber Command Centre and today we’re in Oundle and it’s the 11th of September 2016 and I’m with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Robinson and he’s going to tell us his story. So I’m going to start off, if I may, just asking what your date of birth was.
DR: Date of birth.
AM: Yeah.
DR: 27th of July 1922.
AM: ’22. Right. And where were you born Doug?
DR: Where?
AM: Where were you born?
DR: I was born in Skegness.
AM: Skeggy. And what, what did you parents do? What was your family background? What was your family like?
DR: Well my father was a retired warrant officer from the Indian army and that’s, that was it. He was retired. He did a job as Registrar of births and deaths for the district around there. Well the, not the district. Skegness and one or two surrounding villages.
AM: Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters or -
DR: Sorry?
AM: Did you have brothers and sisters?
DR: Yes. I had three of each. Three brothers. Three sisters.
AM: Right.
DR: My eldest brother also went in to the Indian army but he, not until during the war and he was commissioned into the Indian army. Had to come out I’m afraid when they gave India independence.
AM: Right. And what about schooling? What was your schooling like?
DR: Skegness Grammar School.
AM: Yeah. Did you enjoy it?
DR: Well. I didn’t dislike it. Didn’t really enjoy it.
AM: No.
DR: It was alright at times.
AM: How old were you when you left? Sixteen.
DR: Sixteen.
AM: Sixteen. So you would be, that would have been 1938.
DR: Yes. 1938. Around there.
AM: So what did you do when you left school?
DR: I went into a bank. The, have you heard of the TSB? I started as a junior clerk in the TSB and it was strange actually because it was a brand new office. They built it and you know there was no business there and there was the manager and me. The manager was only in his early twenties. He lost his life in the navy during the war.
AM: Right.
DR: I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it but there was a [terrible buzzing noise from interference on microphone -] [a ship, a naval ship escorting the Queen Mary from the [?] across the Atlantic bringing American troops and I think it was the Mary was a lot faster than the cruiser that he was on and so it zigzagged to keep the -] And one day bright sunshine as it is today, middle of the afternoon the ships came together and neither of them gave way and the Mary went straight through it, total loss of life. He was on that. His widow, she was, she’s dead now, she got a pension from Cunard as a result of that.
AM: Blimey.
DR: [?]
AM: So there you were though, a bank clerk with your, with your young manager.
DR: Yeah.
AM: And along came the war.
DR: [not then?] What made you join, what made you join the RAF?
DR: I don’t really, I don’t really know. I did a year in “dad’s army,” The local defence volunteers and then I don’t know I began to think I ought to be doing a bit more -
AM: Ok.
DR: For the war than this.
AM: What were you actually doing in the defence, in “dad’s army” then?
DR: Well we used to guard things that didn’t need guarding. The electricity power station, power thing and the gas works and the funny one was the telephone exchange because they’d built a new post office at Skegness and the telephone exchange was on the top floor so you’d be defending the telephone exchange but people would be coming for posting letters anyway[laughs] I mean.
AM: When you say defending it, defending it with what?
DR: Rifles.
AM: Oh you actually had rifles.
DR: For a year I had a 303 rifle and, I think it was fifty rounds of ammunition in my bedroom every night.
AM: Did you ever, did you ever use it in anger?
DR: No. No. We practiced firing but we never used it in anger.
AM: Yeah. So -
DR: There was -
AM: Sorry. Go on.
DR: There was a scare, a national sort of scare about September of 1940 that the invasion was about to start and we were called out with one of the local, one of the army units that was stationed locally and went out in to the country and spent a cold night out there. Came back next day when it was all cancelled.
AM: But I interrupted you ‘cause I asked you how come you joined the RAF.
DR: Well as I say I felt I ought to do a bit more and I think, oh what really eventually did it. One of my jobs at work was to go to the post office and I went in one day and they’d got a leaflet there which was in sort of three sections and the first one it was about pilots joining and they got twelve and six pence per day I think it was and the next one was navigators and they also got twelve and six pence a day and the third one was gunner eight and sixpence a day so I thought well I can’t fly, well I’ll never be able to fly and I’d done reasonably well in my school certificate maths so I thought well navigator must involve mathematics so I went. I sent this form off to become a navigator and I went to Lincoln for an interview. I’m not sure whether it was at Lincoln or if it was somewhere else but anyway there was a board of three officers. I think it was a group captain and he said, ‘Why do you want to become a navigator?’ And I told him and he said, ‘Well, why don’t you want to be a pilot?’ And I said, ‘I don’t think I could, could do that,’ so he said, ‘Well, I think you could. Would you be guided by me?’ And so I said, I said in my ignorance, I said, ‘Well if I went on a pilot’s course and failed it could I then become a navigator?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘You’ve my assurance on that.’ It shows how green I was. But anyway I agreed to become a pilot and that was it.
AM: And that was that. So, so talk me through it then. What happened? So they’ve decided you’re going to do pilot training,
DR: Yes.
AM: How did that all start? Where did you go first for -
DR: Well first of all I went down to a place near Torquay. Babbacombe near Torquay and I got in a flight there of about thirty five of us and it was my first experience of RAF jiggery pokery because the NCO in charge of the flight said, ‘I know the postings clerk and for,’ I think it was, ‘sixpence a head I can get you posted where you want to go,’ you see so we all wanted to go to the same place. So I paid my sixpence and all the rest of it and we paraded in the little theatre they’d got there on a Saturday for the posting and of course they posted the wrong Robinson. He, he went on my sixpence. So I had to sort of stay there. I stayed the next week and went along for the posting things and I wasn’t on that one. Then on the next week I found out the, I found the NCO who I’d paid my money to and I said, ‘Look I’m fed up being here. Get me posted this week or else.’ And I got posted but instead of going where the others had gone to Torquay I was posted up to Scarborough and I did my initial training at Scarborough and from there I went to Southern Rhodesia.
AM: Right.
DR: To do my flying training.
AM: How did you get to southern Rhodesia?
DR: By troop ship. Really packed with troops. They were going to -
AM: Where did it sail from?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Where did it sail from? Can you remember?
DR: It actually sailed from Glasgow. We were, we were in West Kirby in the Wirral for a few days and then they took us up to Glasgow and we sailed from the Clyde in a convoy, a big convoy. Called at Freetown on the way and then around to Durban.
AM: How long did it take? Ish.
DR: It seemed forever but -
AM: Yeah.
DR: We were in Freetown for several days whilst they refuelled and one thing and another and then as I say went around to Durban.
AM: Were there any scares while you were on the boat?
DR: Not going out. No.
AM: No.
DR: No. We were all at, we had a big convoy. We had, I was trying to think of the battleship that was with us. It was in Freetown near us. It went on from there to the Far East and when they sank the Prince of Wales it was sunk at the same time. I can’t thing which one it was now.
GR: Was that the Repulse?
DR: Repulse.
GR: Repulse. Yeah.
DR: Yes. Repulse I remember sailing past it as we went out of Freetown. Went. Yeah.
AM: So there you are a boy from Skegness.
DR: Sorry?
AM: So here you are a boy from Skegness.
DR: Yes [laughs]
AM: In Rhodesia.
DR: Yes. Yes.
AM: So what was that like? What?
DR: Well it was, it wasn’t bad at all really. We, there was a transit camp we went to first which was the old, it was a showground really and we were in the cattle shed, cattle, where they used to display the cows and so on, had the things on the floor we sat on but it was alright. That was just near Bulawayo. Then we went up to what was then, well now Harare anyway and that’s when I started my flying training. Initial training.
AM: So what was the training like? How did you -
DR: Training on Tiger Moths. And I had a very nice Australian instructor. Very good with me otherwise I wouldn’t have passed but –
AM: How, how did they go about teaching you to fly?
DR: Well he sat in the front cockpit and I sat in the back and communicated by tubes but, but he, he told you what you do and you would do a movement with him and then he’d tell you to do it on your own. It wasn’t really all that difficult.
AM: Could you drive a car at the time?
DR: No. No.
AM: No.
DR: I learned to fly eleven years before I learned to drive a car.
AM: The reason I ask that is because it’s pretty much the same I guess. Somebody’s showing you how to do it and then you do it.
DR: Yeah.
AM: And how long was that training? Were there any alarms and scares in that?
DR: That, that initial training we started at the beginning of November and finished at Christmas.
AM: Right.
DR: And then –
AM: So quite quick.
DR: Moved back down towards Bulawayo for the service training which there were two lots of stations, for service training. One for single engine aircraft by and large expected to go on to fighters and the other for twin engine so we went on the twin engines, the old Oxfords.
AM: How did they decide which you were going to be?
DR: Well you were asked your preference but you didn’t necessarily get it but they obviously had a certain number to post to each place and they made up the number if, but I went on the one I wanted to do actually. The twin engine one. And -
AM: So what did you go on to then then as a twin engine -?
DR: That was the Oxford. It was a –
AM: Right
DR: Wooden aircraft actually. It was designed, it was a nice little aircraft actually.
AM: Yeah. Tell me a bit more about the training then. Any alarms and scares or did it all go smoothly?
DR: Well, yeah, I had a, had a little prang on night flying. The airfield there, it had, it was strange ‘cause it was a grass airfield but there was a concrete thing across one end which we taxied on. You’d land and get on there and beyond that there was a lot of wasteland which was sort of elephant grass you know and that, this night I took off. I think it was my first night solo and I took off but didn’t do it very well and I finished off skidding along the ground in this elephant grass. So I got out and started to walk back and I met the crash thing coming. He said, ‘Have you seen the pilot of that aircraft?’ And I said, ‘Well I am the pilot.’ [laughs] So that was it. But that was all. That wasn’t much. It wasn’t very scary. I mean, just slid along the ground.
AM: Just skidded. It was like a skid.
DR: It was just, I mean, you know, people weren’t overjoyed with you [laughs].
AM: I was going to say, well that was going to be my question. What happened? How much damage did you do to it?
DR: Oh I -
AM: And what happened as a result?
DR: I imagine, I don’t know really what they did. Whether it was written off or not. It probably was. I don’t know. But no. We, we got away with it.
AM: And what happened as a result? Did you just get a telling off or just -
DR: Yeah I got a bit of a telling off and that was about it, about it but the funny thing was they immediately rush you to sick quarters because they think you know there must be some [laughs] you must have some injury, internal if not, but I was in sick quarters overnight I think. That’s all. And then I had to go down to the flight and went with an instructor around, around the low flying area. Supposed to get over your nerves or something.
AM: Climb back on the bike.
DR: Yeah.
AM: So to speak.
DR: Yeah. So that wasn’t really much though.
AM: So what next? You’ve -
DR: Well when we eventually passed out from there and got our wings and so on we went on a train down to Cape Town and then we got on a troop ship that was coming back to this country, almost, there were a few people on but there was about a hundred of us from Rhodesia and there were also some people who had been on air crew training in South Africa. I’ve got a book by one of them in there. Coming back we got on this ship in Cape Town, the Oronsay which was, there was a line called the Orient Line and they only had about four or five ships and they all started with the letters OR Orient, Orion, Orontes and so on and we’d been on our way to Free, going to go to Freetown on the way back, on our way and then in the early morning when it was still dark there was a horrible bang [laughs] and a torpedo came in. I heard the torpedo hit, hit the ship, I heard it hit the things, heard the in-rush of water and I heard the torpedo go bang and I thought it’s time to get up so we got out. There wasn’t, there was no panic. People went quite quickly but quietly upstairs. Unfortunately when we got on deck, well I suppose we knew it before we got on deck but my boat station was on the port side but it had developed a great list to starboard which was where the torpedo had gone in. So all the boats on the starboard er on the port side couldn’t be lowered so which, so went around to the starboard side and there didn’t seem to be any. They’d all either gone or, so I went, I went back to the port side and they had several rafts there and I let one of these rafts go and it went down into the darkness and I thought well there’s not much point in following that. I didn’t know where it had gone so when I went back around and where, oh there was a boat about to go, the last boat. I met a friend of mine actually on the way around and so we went to get on this boat and the chap standing in the thing said, ‘Just room for one more,’ and my friend got on first. He said, ‘Room for one more.’ My friend said, ‘Can’t you get my friend on? There’s room for,’ ‘No, only room for one.’ So he got on and I didn’t [laughs].
AM: So then what happened?
DR: Well there were, this ship, I think with it being a converted ship, you know it was a peacetime liner and they’d converted it for a troop ship and they’d got it so that they’d got one boat inside another. Both used the same lowering gear, what do they call them? Davits or whatever and somehow they’d managed to lower this one right on top of the other and it was across it.
AM: Right.
DR: And so quite a number, well half a dozen people had gone down and were trying to get the top one off so I thought well I might as well go and have a go with that so I went down the ropes and having a go, put my shoulder to it and all the rest of it. You couldn’t budge it at all. It was [?]. We saw the captain’s boat go down, the captain get in and his officers and they started to go away and we thought well, you know, this is a bit odd but anyway he came back for us.
AM: Right.
DR: So we got off in his boat although after a while he transferred us to other boats to even the load out. So that was it.
AM: So where did you all get? So you’re all there in the lifeboats. Where did you get to?
DR: Well -
AM: And had it, had the main the ship sunk by this time?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Or –
DR: Well we, no it was, we were all in these lifeboats. I think there were about sixteen lifeboats successfully launched and we’re all sort of around the ship and the captain decided that it wasn’t going to sink so he started calling for volunteers among his crew to go back and sail the thing and I thought, anyway he’d no sooner done that then there was another great bang and another one, another torpedo went in. I think, I think they fired another three and eventually the thing instead of being listing it righted itself but then it gradually went down, the stern went down and the -
AM: Yeah.
DR: Nose came up and then down she went.
AM: That was it. So what happened to the lifeboats? How did you -
DR: Lifeboats.
AM: How did you come ashore then?
DR: Well we rowed for eight days.
AM: Eight days.
DR: Eight days yeah. Actually the first night it rained and rained and I had the misfortune to sit or probably, probably the good fortune to sit near the pump and it were only a little diddly thing you did this with. I was doing that all night, pumping but everybody else was baling so probably I had the easy job but we, we had to pump a few times and then after about, as I say eight days, we tied up actually, we tied nine boats in a row. It was the captain’s idea we’d stay together. I think we had nine boats in our row and there was six in the other I think. Six or seven. And after the first night we never saw the others again. They sort of disappeared but our nine stayed together. On the eighth day the, a lot of the crew were getting a bit restless. They said it would be better to be separate. We’d make more progress if we were separated and in the early afternoon the captain said, ‘Alright. Separate.’ We all separated and we’d no sooner separated than somebody spotted a Sunderland Flying Boat. It was only a little dot miles away. I mean people started sending up flares and I wondered what was happening and then I realised what it was. This Sunderland came over and circled us and dropped a few things with food in and he was in touch with the CO in Freetown and they said they’d be sending a destroyer out to us at midnight. So we sat patiently in the boat until midnight and then this destroyer appeared and we thankfully went up the scramble nets and we just sort of -
[machine pause]
GR: Life boats.
DR: I think so. I think so.
GR: Yeah.
DR: I’m not, I wouldn’t be certain.
GR: And did all the lifeboats make it to the dest -?
DR: Well some of, there were different stories. You see our nine, our nine stayed together and we were all picked up, I think, at that time, taken in.
GR: By the destroyer. Yeah.
DR: By the destroyer. Taken into Freetown but of the others some, some were adrift for about twelve days I think.
GR: God.
DR: And some were picked up by the Vichy French.
GR: Yes. Of course.
DR: Taken in to Dakar
GR: Yeah.
DR: And they were interned there for some time and there were quite a few ladies actually. Well half dozen or more. I think they were nurses. I know there was a squadron leader and his wife. Well, time expired and coming back and his wife -
GR: Yes.
DR: And what happened to her I’m not sure but apparently when they interned these blokes in Dakar they took these ladies to the border with, I forget what the British territory was but whatever it was.
AM: I can’t think.
DR: And they just set them loose and they were quite a few days trekking to the nearest place.
GR: And you never saw anything of the U-boat, the U-boat didn’t come after the survivors or –
FR: For years I thought it was a U-boat and people said that it had.
GR: You’d better record that.
DR: People had said it had surfaced and the captain -
GR: No.
DR: But it actually wasn’t a U-boat. It was an Italian ship, Italian submarine.
GR: Submarine. Right.
DR: Called the, I forget what it, I’ve got a book, a little book there.
GR: Yeah.
DR: But it was written by one of the chaps who was trained in Southern Rhodesia, er in South Africa and he actually became, he was, he’d been a foreign officer clerk and he went back to the foreign office and he became ambassador in Norway I think and somewhere else and is now sir somebody.
GR: Sir Archie Lamb.
DR: Archie Lamb. That’s right.
AM: Goodness me. That came as a, all of that came as a surprise because I don’t think you knew that did you?
GR: No.
AM: No.
GR: No. No.
AM: So you all finally get back, I mean I’ve got loads of questions I could ask like what did you eat and drink on the boat?
CR: I was going to say –
AM: Were there provisions on the boat?
DR: Sort of you know emergency rations. Small biscuits. Probably two or three of those a day. Horlicks tablets. You remember Horlicks tablets? Well we had those. They were nice. The funny thing was there was a lad from Spalding. I think he was a member of the crew, I think he was a steward or something and he was in the lifeboat with me and he didn’t like Horlicks tablets so I got all his Horlicks tablets [laughs] and then we had some water and they had a thing like a test tube. They used to bring it up about and you’d half full of that and you’d watch everybody drinking ‘cause you were making it last as long as you can you know swilling it around.
AM: Was anybody in charge on the boats or –
DR: Yes.
AM: Making sure that -
DR: Yes. One of the crew was in charge of it.
AM: Right.
DR: I forget what they called him now. I don’t know whether, whether it was his position on the ship or whether it was just, bosun. They called him bosun. Whether it was ship’s bosun or if it was just his title for being in charge of the lifeboat I never knew.
AM: But you all got back so -
DR: Yes. We got, we got back.
AM: So you all got back then. How did you all get back to Britain from there?
DR: Well we, the destroyer took us into Freetown and we didn’t get, we even get ashore in Freetown. They ferried us across to another troop ship which was actually a Greek, had been a Greek ship the Nea Hellas and we were on that coming back. There was apparently a bit of scare that it was being shadowed by a, but anyway we never, never got worried by it. It was never. We got back to England alright.
AM: So that was that. So then what happened? So you’re now a qualified pilot.
DR: Oh yes I was a qualified pilot. Well we landed at Glasgow. As the air force would arrange these things they put us in a train and took us down to Bournemouth. And the Bournemouth was run by, it was a receiving place for the Canadians mainly and it was run by the Canadians and there was a Canadian group captain there. Oh, whilst we were on the boats the merchant navy blokes had said to us, ‘When you get home you’ll get twenty eight days leave. Survivors leave. We all get it,’ he said. ‘You’ll get it.’ So when we got back we asked for this survivors leave and do you know what we got? They said you get twenty eight days. We got seven days. And that is the, that is how I got the title of my book. We had a, paraded in a cinema in Bournemouth and a group captain came on because he was welcoming the Canadians to this country and so on and he said something about, ‘Welcoming you to this country.’ He said, ‘Some of you have had great experiences in getting to this country but then life is a great experience. Adventure. Life is a great adventure.’ So I thought when I wanted a title for my book I thought that’s it. The group captain’s given it to me.
AM: So you’re in Bournemouth.
DR: Hmmn?
AM: Then I’m just trying to think chronologically of what happens next. Do you carry on with your training but go to Heavy Conversion Unit? What? I can’t remember what order things come after that.
DR: Yes, yeah from I’m not sure where, we went first to Operational Training Unit.
AM: Yes.
DR: To get crewed up.
AM: Right.
DR: Started at a place called Wymeswold and finished at Castle Donington which now of course is East Midlands Airport.
AM: Yes.
DR: And that was on Wellingtons and from there we went to Marston Moor which I’ve already told you about. Meeting Cheshire. And from there to 158 squadron.
AM: Ok. Do you want to tell me the Leonard Cheshire story again for the recording? Tell me the Leonard Cheshire story again for the recording.
DR: Well the night after we got to Marston Moor we decided we’d go in to York and three of us went to get on the bus but the bus had gone so we went out on to the road and decided to thumb a lift which sergeants weren’t supposed to do and we were, it was quite a long road. We could see a car approaching and we stood there thumbing and suddenly realised it was an RAF car and as it got nearer we could see it was an officer driving and when he pulled up we could see that he’d got four rings on his sleeve and he was a group captain. And he said, ‘Alright. Get in.’ So the other two jumped in the back and I had to get in, open the front passenger, well I opened the front passenger door and his cap was on the seat and so momentarily, momentarily you don’t know what to do. So do I, I can’t touch his cap, I can’t sit on the seat while it’s there but anyway eventually he said, ‘Don’t sit on my bloody hat.’ So I picked the thing up, put it over the back and got in.
AM: And he took you to York and dropped you off at –
DR: Bettys Bar. Yes. You’ll finish up there anyway.
AM: So, anyway, so back to the chronological order. You’ve crewed up. How did they crewing up go? Who chose who?
DR: Crewing up well yes it was, it was reasonably good. I was in a hut and I got to know ‘cause they bring in, I mean if they’re making say twenty crews they bring in twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty bomb aimers and so on and I was in this hut with quite a number of other people of various trades, and I got to know a number of the wireless operators and I met them actually in a pub in Loughborough as well and they’d got an air gunner with them so the four of us seemed to go out quite a lot together. I had to make a decision which wireless operator I had. I could only have one of them and so I selected one and so that was my wireless operator and my rear gunner. I needed a navigator and a bomb aimer. There was a navigator we’d got quite friendly with and I asked him to be my navigator and he said he’d already agreed to be somebody else’s but he would find me somebody who was, and he found me a navigator. A very nice bloke and a good navigator and the navigator found me a bomb aimer. It was funny actually because all the bomb aimers, bomb aiming had only just, bomb aimer as a, as a trade had only just been introduced and they were trying to popularise it I think and so they commissioned most of them. I think of the twenty, twenty five that we had there were only three who were non- commissioned.
AM: Right.
DR: So nobody wanted the non-commissioned ones. They thought there must be something wrong with them if they [laughs] so I got a commissioned one and that was the initial crew until we went to -
GR: Heavy Conversion Unit.
DR: Heavy Conversion Unit on to Halifaxes when we got another gunner and a flight engineer.
AM: And a flight engineer yeah.
DR: And they were just detailed to me so I didn’t get a chance to -
AM: Ok. But you got the full gang.
DR: So I got the full gang but didn’t always keep them I’m afraid. The rear gunner I had, we were very friendly together but one night he refused to fly. Well, he didn’t refuse to fly. We, we were going to Berlin actually and we taxied around, do you know Lissett?
GR: Lissett, yes. Yeah.
DR: Well normally we could approach the runways on either way. This particular night as it happened we were all coming from one direction and it was very fortunate because I got the green light and as I got the green light to go on to the runway this gunner said to me, ‘I don’t think I ought to go.’ I said, ‘What did you say?’ He said, ‘I don’t think I ought to go.’ And I thought well I can’t go anywhere. What do I do? I can’t, can’t call up the flight control because of the radio silence but as I say with the other side being vacant I just taxied straight over and parked on the, on the taxi -
GR: On the side. Yeah.
DR: The, the other side and I thought well air traffic control are going to see me there. They’re going to think well what the heck’s he doing? And they’ll find out and fair, true enough, after a little while the officer in charge of night flying was Brian Quinlan. I don’t know if you knew Brian. He came out on his motorbike and I said to my, my temper by this time was a little frayed and I said to this gunner, ‘You’d better get out and tell this officer what you’ve just told me.’ So he got out and within a few minutes Brian Quinlan appeared in the cockpit and he said, ‘Taxi back. Taxi to the next intersection, you know, where the runway came in, turn and come back again and wait here.’ Which, which I did. And when he got, when I’d no sooner got back there then he appeared on the runway on his motorbike with a spare gunner on the pillion and this poor bloke got in, got in the rear turret and that was it. We went away.
AM: And what happened to the other one? Just disappeared.
DR: Yeah. Well yeah.
AM: Lack of moral fibre.
DR: He was court martialled and it was a sad old time really. I had to go as a witness. I don’t know who I was witnessing for but I mean I, but it was, I felt sorry for him in a way because he looked so dejected and you know he’d been a nice enough bloke.
GR: How many operations had you flown by then?
DR: I don’t know. I should think probably about eight or something like that.
GR: About eight. Yeah. Ok.
DR: What, what he, I think what probably happened the one the previous one we’d done was Milan and it was over nine hours and it was in, coming back anyway, it was in bright daylight and he, I think he was a bit nervy all the way. He kept saying, ‘What’s that on the port starboard, on the port bow Paddy?’ Paddy, being the mid upper and Paddy in a broad Irish accent, ‘Och it’s only, only a bit of cloud,’ you know, and this sort of thing but you could tell really. I mean at the time I never thought anything of it but afterwards, after the refusal to fly and so on it struck me that his nerve had gone by that time I think.
GR: Because when you flew back from Milan it was complete, you flew back over France didn’t you?
DR: Over Switzerland.
GR: Over Switzerland.
DR: And France.
GR: And France yeah. In daylight.
DR: Yeah.
AM: What, what, so when he was court martialled what did they actually do with him?
DR: Well. Well he was court martialled. The funny thing was they questioned, when they questioned me it was strange they wanted to see was he actually ordered to fly. Well I mean they didn’t order for a standing place, ‘You’ll fly tonight’. ‘You’ll fly tonight.’ I mean it wasn’t like that. Just a board went up and the names of the pilot was on and -
GR: Yeah.
DR: You took that crew went and that was it but he was actually as I say court martialled. Ordered to be reduced to the ranks and to serve eighty four days detention but the AOC didn’t confirm it so he got away with it.
AM: Right.
DR: He got off and Calder I don’t know whether he rang me, or spoke to me one day and said, ‘As he wasn’t found guilty he’s still on the strength of the squadron and I don’t suppose you want him back do you?’ I said, ‘You’re right there.’ [laughs]
AM: That’s a no then. Yeah. So what did they do with him? Did he stay or -
DR: I don’t know what happened to him eventually.
AM: As ground crew or -
DR: I don’t know what happened to him eventually.
AM: Yeah.
DR: He would be posted away I think somewhere.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
DR: But it was, I don’t know, a pity, you know how Group Captain Pickard was at -
GR: Yeah.
DR: He wasn’t there in my time. He was there before I got there but he had a couple of horses at a farm there and our dispersal we lived on was one field away and this gunner was a real horsey type so he used to go and look after these horses. Groom them and one thing or another and then we [laughs] we used to ride them down to the pub [laughs]. Well we used to get on and they knew the way to the pub and so we’d go. There were three of us. One would ride a bike and the other two would go on a horse and we’d tie them up outside the pub and have a drink or two and then they’d know their own way home and of course we lost all that when he went but –
AM: We’ve jumped a little bit because we’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit. What we didn’t say was that you were posted to 158 squadron at Lissett.
DR: Yeah that’s right.
AM: So I’m just. So you’re on 158 squadron now.
DR: Yes.
AM: So the stray bod that you got did you keep him or did you get another?
DR: No. No. He, I got another one.
AM: Right.
DR: I got a Canadian.
AM: And kept him.
DR: Yes. I kept him. I was with his, one of his sons and two daughters last week at 158.
AM: Wonderful.
DR: They come over every year.
AM: I’m going to jump again now then. So I know that you’ve done a number of operations now and I know that you either have done or are going to do Berlin.
DR: Yes.
AM: So tell me about Berlin and what happened.
DR: Well this night of course with having this kerfuffle with the, we were about fifteen, twenty minutes late taking off so I tried to make that up as best I could but it could, got to Berlin and nearly everybody else had gone so we had the whole Berlin defences to ourselves and it’s a long way across Berlin and it was very, very well very, very lonely flying across it. We think there was a fighter had a good, started to attack but I’ve an idea that it was a Mosquito was around and chased him I think so we didn’t get attacked. We got over quite safely that time.
AM: That time.
GR: Yeah.
AM: So tell me about -
GR: How many times did you go to Berlin?
DR: Three.
GR: Three.
AM: Three.
GR: Yeah.
DR: It was -
AM: So, on the third one -
DR: On the third one we were, we’d just dropped the bombs, the bombs had gone and there was an almighty bang. It really was. I’m sure it was a direct hit and the nose of the aircraft just started going up, straight up in the air which isn’t very healthy, I mean it could go into a stall in no time but I just could not seem to get it to stop and I said, ‘Prepare to bale out,’ because I thought we’ve had it and I realised the moment I’d said that the intercom was dead so I thought I’ve got to do something about this. I got a chap, you know we used to take a, when a crew came to the squadron he usually did an operation with an experienced crew.
AM: Yes.
DR: Well, and I’d got this chap, second pilot. I got him to put his leg across my legs and push on the control column. I was, I’d got it under my knees like that and he was pushing with his leg and we flew I think for over two hours, two and a half hours like that and the nose was trying to come up all the time and it was just above stalling I think. And I flew along. The Baltic was on the right and I thought to myself, shall we go to Sweden? And I thought, incidentally, we were all supposed to be on leave, we should have gone on leave that night. It was an incentive to get back but I was thinking about Sweden and of course I knew nothing about Sweden. With my boyhood knowledge I thought it was very mountainous so you know how could we flying in to mountains trying to get, so I decided I wouldn’t go to Sweden. We’d try and get home so we kept on and weeventually got to the Dutch coast and we were there at the time we were supposed to have been back at Lissett. We’d got winds against us of very nearly a hundred miles an hour. The aircraft was only just above stalling speed and I thought well I’m not going to go, I couldn’t risk going across the North Sea. We wouldn’t have got, we wouldn’t have got any more than half way across. If that. So I thought, and by this time we were down to five or six thousand feet. I can’t really remember but there was a light flak battery firing at us and doing a bit of damage so I thought well the only thing is we’re over a friendly country. Bale out and we might get in with the underground and you know so I baled them out.
AM: If the intercoms had gone how did they know to bale out?
DR: The only way, actually, the flight engineer. I told him to go around and tell everybody to bale out which he did. He, and then he came back and I said, ‘Have they all gone?’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ And I said, ‘Well you’d better go then’. Of course we stowed his chute and my chute together and he was supposed to get the chute, two out, bring me mine, put his on and go. He came back and he said, ‘One of them was damaged.’ ‘So I said, ‘Well you’d better take the other one then.’ ‘No. No. I can’t. I can’t leave you.’ I said, ‘No you get in. Take, put that on. Get out.’ And he argued and I’m not going to argue and told him three times to get out so I said, ‘Well if you’re going to stay you’d better get back in to the rest position and brace for,’ I didn’t know, you know I realised I’d got to somehow get the thing down and I flew along looking for a decent, a good field and eventually, well it wasn’t long actually before I saw a field I thought I could do it -
AM: Was it daylight by now?
DR: No. It was -
AM: ‘Or dawn?
DR: Yes in-between sort of thing. Yes. It was sevenish in the morning. Something like that. And it was, I think it was lighter looking down than when you actually got on the ground. Anyway, we got down and skidded to a stop and got out and had a, well the funny thing was I thought I’d better go back and see if he’s alright and this is [laughs] this is the truth I walked back to him and instead of being braced he was standing up and he said, ‘Are we down?’ ‘Who the heck’s flying this thing?’ [laughs]. You know.
GR: Well that’s a compliment to the pilot.
DR: It was. Yeah. Anyway we got out the escape hatch and then we were having, I thought we’d have a quick look at the damage and we were having a look and as you say it was half-light or not quite half-light and he said, suddenly said to me, ‘There’s somebody the other side of the aircraft.’ And so I went around. I thought the only thing to do, whoever it is, oh and he said, ‘He’s got a gun.’ I thought well the only thing you could do is confront the chap so I walked around and didn’t need any confront, he was friendly. He said something about, I don’t remember whether he said, ‘Have you had a meal?’ Or, ‘Would you like a meal?’ And I thought, I was thinking I want to get away from this aircraft as far as I can as quickly as I can so I refused it and we walked. We left the thing and we walked on. We walked out through a village and up a country road and there was a bend in the road and there was a farmhouse there and the farmer outside so we went to him and asked if he could give us a drink of water or something and we had a drink of water and I asked him where we were and he brought out a little school atlas and, ‘There.’ And there just about covered the Netherlands. [laughs]. I thought well I was a little bit clued up about –
AM: Yeah.
DR: Which country it was. Anyway, we went in his house and to get to his house you went through a cowshed. I noticed there was a sort of hay loft sort of thing you know so I asked him if he, if we could get up there and he said, you know shook his head and talked about the Germans you know, shoot him and so on. I can understand his point of view.
AM: Yeah.
DR: So we decided, well I decided we wouldn’t stay and we got out of the house and two Dutch policemen came around the bend on bikes and they came to us. One was a young bloke and the other was a bit older and they, I don’t know for certain but it seemed to me that the young chap wanted to turn us in and the older one wasn’t very happy. He looked as if he was a bit tearful actually but anyway they, he had to go along with what the younger one wanted to do so they took us back to the village we’d come through and telephoned the Germans. And that was it.
AM: And for you the war is over.
DR: Hmmn?
AM: For you the war is over.
DR: Yes. Well, that, that was the greeting yes. For you the war is over.
AM: So what year are we in now? Is this -
DR: That was January ’44.
AM: ’44.
DR: January the 29th ‘44.
AM: So when the Germans came and got you where, then what?
DR: Well they took us to what was obviously a house which they’d taken over as a sort of place for their troops to live in and we were there most, so funny actually because they made us turn our pockets out and all this sort of thing and Lofty the engineer he’d taken an orange out of the, that we had in the flying rations and of course he’d got this orange and he put it on [laughs] and it was so funny ‘cause there were Germans coming in and poking it. You know. They’d never seen an orange before [laughs] But we were there most of the day and then they took us down to the station, local station and we went by passenger train up to Leeuwarden. I don’t know whether that’s the pronunciation L E E W A R D E N. And there was an NCO in charge of us and two other blokes and the NCO, he walked in front with a drawn pistol and one of the others walked at the side of us and the bloke with a submachine gun walked behind us and I thought well if you let off with that you’re going to get your mate in front here as well but anyway they paraded us through a long street in Leeuwarden and it was so funny I mean there were people walking past victory signs, thumbs up and there was a tram car came along and it just kept pace with us and you could see all the passengers in there doing this -
AM: Thumbs up and -
GR: Victory signs.
AM: V for victory to you.
DR: And we were sort of, yes. Acknowledging it all. I mean, it was, it was so funny really because it wasn’t what they were intending but they were showing off to the Dutch that they’d got the, you know -
AM: They’d captured you.
DR: Yeah. They got the terror fliegers and all the rest of it and anyway they took us along in to a big compound. Well a sort of parade area. It was a naval barracks and they opened a cell door and pushed us, well didn’t really push us, made us go in and there was all my crew there except one. They’d picked them all up except one.
AM: All of you. The whole lot. Did they know that they were your crew?
DR: I don’t know. I imagine so. I imagine so. And he, actually he, the one that was missing wasn’t really one of my crew, my mid upper gunner was a Southern Irishman and we were all supposed to go on leave that night. Well he used to get a couple of days extra for travelling to Southern Ireland and he’d already gone so this chap that was with me, this Canadian standing in and of course they hadn’t got him and he was the only one who did make it to the underground.
AM: Right.
DR: Apparently some farmers found him. They’d got the little pens out for the sheep to go in, supposed to be lambing or something and they found him hiding in one of these and so they took him in and looked after him for a time and I don’t really know the full story but he was eventually picked up with the underground in Antwerp or somewhere so he they’d got him quite a way away but he were betrayed and that was it. He was finished in another prison camp. I never met him again. He didn’t get, I did meet him again in a reunion after the war but I didn’t during the war. We thought he was dead. I thought he must have had an accident baling out and you know and that’s it. And -
AM: We, we spoke to someone else who exactly the same thing happened and I think the escape line, the escape line was the KLM line.
DR: Yeah.
AM: That he’d been, and exactly the same. Captured at Antwerp.
DR: Yes.
AM: So the whole lot of you there minus one. And where did they take you from there?
DR: From, yeah, they took us, the same night I think they took us to a Luftwaffe station. Actually it was a Dutch station it was about the biggest or only sort of regular air force station. I can’t remember its name. And we were in the cells there for the best part of a week I suppose. They tried to interrogate us and so on and then from there they took us to Amsterdam and we were incarcerated in Amsterdam jail for a week or so. Yeah.
AM: Where did you end up? Which prison camp did you end up in?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Which prison camp did you end up in?
DR: Well, from, after we go into the interrogation place we went to, or I went to, some of us went to Stalag Luft 6 which was up on the borders of East Prussia and Lithuania. We were there until July of ‘44 when the Russians were pushing the Germans back. The Germans had got right in to Russia.
AM: Yeah.
DR: And the Russians pushed them back and we could actually hear the artillery fire and we were beginning to get a bit worried about what might happen if we were liberated by the Russians but anyway they then took us, not all of us but I was one that was taken, they took us to, in the cattle trucks down to Memel which was in the port of Lithuania. I don’t know what it is now. I couldn’t pronounce its name now but it was called Memel. We were put in a little tramp, in the hold of a tramp ship which was filthy and we were about, I think we were about four days from there to, oh dear, I forget the name of the port now.
GR: Don’t matter.
AM: No. It don’t matter.
GR: Don’t matter.
DR: A German port in
GR: Yeah
DR: Sort of [?] When we got off into cattle trucks again and we had, I think, one night. Oh they, as we got off that, the boat they handcuffed us in pairs. I thought I was being clever and I asked if anybody was left handed so we had could have one left hand and one right but we didn’t. I got this Canadian but apparently he was right handed too but he had his right hand handcuffed to my left and we were, officially we were handcuffed together for about three or four days but we soon learned how to take them off actually.
AM: Oh good.
DR: So people were taking them off.
AM: I’m just thinking when you’re doing the necessary -
DR: Yeah.
AM: Ablutions and things like that you don’t necessarily want to be handcuffed –
DR: That’s right.
AM: To someone.
DR: No. We, people soon learned the key of a corned beef tin came handy with that. It used to be out -
AM: But where did you get the key of a corned beef tin from?
DR: Off the corned beef tin. Red Cross parcels.
GR: Red Cross Parcels.
DR: Red Cross parcels.
AM: Oh so that was your rations. Right. Ok.
DR: Anyway, we and then we got to Stalag Luft 4 and we had a very rough reception there. We got, we got to the station, or the siding, very early in the morning and it was a really hot day and they kept us in the cattle wagons ‘til about two in the afternoon and we got, got out and of course to try and carry all your, what belongings you had, I mean, for example I had a greatcoat. We were wearing greatcoats. It was the easiest way to carry them and it was really hot. And anyway about 3 o’clock they got us out of the things and we lined up and there was a German officer got up, and he, he’d got, he’d got an immaculate white tunic on. Oh really. And instantly, instantly became known as the ice cream man. But he was obviously in charge and they marched us out on to the, on to the road, lined up and there was a lot of cadets, naval cadets that came and they were all armed, all, and he ordered them to fix bayonets which wasn’t a very friendly thing to do and we started walking along, or marching along this road and they started saying –
GR: Thank you.
DR: They started saying, ‘Quicker. Quicker. Quicker’ and we were getting, until eventually we were sort of running and then we were in a wooded thing then suddenly they turned left and there was steep hill and we were going up this hill and they then tried, they were then aiming to jam you in your backside with these bayonets and of course people were throwing all their stuff away to lighten the load. I’d got a haversack thing on my back which I couldn’t take the stuff out so the Canadian who was running with me he got it open. He was throwing stuff out and we ran up this road and you could see people with blood coming down them, and I passed one poor lad I knew. I don’t, I can’t remember his name but I knew and the chap he was with had obviously passed out and he was there -
AM: And he’s still handcuffed.
DR: Handcuffed to him. Couldn’t move. You could see he was absolutely terrified the poor lad. He was only a very young lad I think. And then we got to the, eventually got to the top of the hill and turned and about a half a mile away was the prison camp and we, we got there. I hadn’t been touched actually until I got there and then one of them got his rifle up and started having a go at my ribs but he didn’t really do anything hard. He tried and didn’t. And then they called them off and we went into the vorlager, sort of first place. Not right in to the camp and we were there all night.
AM: When you said, you said they were cadets so were they just, were they teenagers or young. Young.
DR: Well I suppose they were, no I suppose they were eighteen year olds.
AM: Right.
DR: Sixteen, eighteen year olds. Yeah. But, they’d, all the other guards of their own but a lot of them, but it was, it’s always been known as, ‘the run up the road.’
AM: Yeah. So how long were you in there for then? Where are we now? July did you say? July 44?
DR: July then until February of the next, of the next year when we started on the Long March.
AM: So you did the Long March.
DR: Three months of that.
AM: And what was the worst bit of that?
DR: Sorry?
AM: What was the worst bit of that?
DR: The weather. It was so cold. Snow and ice and sleeping out at, some nights, we did sleep outside some nights. Most nights they found a barn or something like that more or less but we had one or two nights out. But one night we went to a farm and there were three large farm buildings in a row with thatched roofs and I think they put some of their own transport in one. In the end one. We were pushed in the centre one and some army prisoners in the left hand one and we were tight in this thing. When we, they’d got straw in the floor and when we laid down at night we were head to toe in a row and touching each one. It was as close as that and during the night we heard an aircraft flying over and we could hear it approach and it dropped a bomb on the, and it hit the thing where they’d put all their stuff and it flew away again. Came around machine gunning and I was lying down there. I could see tracer bullets coming through the straw you know and he hit the wall on the side and before there was a little ring of fire and it just spread like mad and it was, the whole lot was going and people just sort of got up and walked out and that’s it. They didn’t really run.
AM: No.
DR: But um -
AM: Did you, did you see it? Was it an allied?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Was it a British plane or a German?
DR: Oh we take it that it was probably a Mosquito. We’ve always called it the Mossie raid. I mean we were just guessing at that. We sort of -
AM: Yeah.
DR: I think it would be an allied one.
AM: Then when –
DR: I think there were, there were three or four of our blokes were killed.
GR: And then towards the end of the long march I presume you walked into allied hands.
DR: Well yes. We were very, it was a great day to remember. We, we were stopped in a village and we sort of spent the night in a barn and this, and I got up to make the coffee and there was Americans with us as well and I suddenly heard an American voice shouting, ‘The limeys are here. The limeys are here.’ And looked and it was the 6th Airborne Division coming through the village.
GR: Brilliant.
AM: Yeah.
DR: What a day that was.
GR: What a day that was.
DR: And they were throwing tins of their rations to us you know and we didn’t eat half of them, more than we, actually it was, everybody was just having a good time.
AM: What condition were you in by then?
DR: Well -
CR: He looked a bit thin on the photographs.
DR: Yeah I was very thin and I think I got frostbitten feet. They were always cold. We was lousy. [laughs].
AM: Yeah.
DR: But apart from that we weren’t too bad.
AM: So how did you get back home then from that, that stage?
DR: Well, they, the 6th Airborne asked us to stay there that day because they were bringing all their stuff through and then we get up to, oh what was the name of the place, what was the place where Montgomery took the -
GR: Luneburg Heath.
DR: Yes.
GR: Luneburg Heath. Yeah.
DR: Well that was the town.
GR: Yeah.
DR: And we had to get up there the next day and it was quite a thing because people were pinching bikes and cars and all sorts of things to get up there and we were a bit slow off the mark. We couldn’t find anything but we found a bloke who was going out in a pony and trap thing so we got on board there and I sat, jiggling mind you it was a beautiful sunny day. It was quite a nice ride, trip and we eventually we got to a village and we stopped for a drink. Went in the pub and demanded a drink and of course when we got out the pony had gone but one of the Canadians, our Canadians came along driving a bus so we piled on to this bus and it was so funny ‘cause there were Germans were walking back on the side of the road and everybody was trying to get a good hat.
GR: Souvenir.
DR: If you could see an officer with a nice smart hat. Boom. [laughs] No. It was. I got a sword.
CR: Yes you got a sword didn’t you?
DR: Going through a village, a great big pile of swords so I got out and had a look and picked one I liked and still got it.
AM: Wonderful. Might have to have a photo of that.
DR: Sorry?
AM: We might have to -
GR: Have a photograph of that.
AM: Take a photo of that. How did you eventually get back though to England?
DR: Well, we, we were flown back. RAF Dakota.
GR: Dakota. And back to England was you? Was you demobbed straight away?
DR: No. No. Actually I stayed in the air force for three years after the war.
GR: Oh.
AM: You were probably deloused first weren’t you?
DR: Hmmn?
AM: They deloused you first.
CR: They deloused you.
DR: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CR: You were lousy when you came back.
DR: They more or less did that when we landed. We landed at a place called Wing. I don’t know.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
DR: And I was posted to Wing.
GR: Yeah. We know Wing.
DR: Soon after but they arranged it quite well actually. They sort of deloused you and they set it out like a restaurant or café and the ladies would bring you tea and coffee and then the buses took us into Aylesbury and put us on a train up to Cosford.
GR: Yeah.
DR: And then I went on leave from Cosford.
AM: Had you been able to tell your parents? Did your parents know that you were alive?
DR: Yes. Yes. Actually, yeah, I think the Red Cross had told them that I was.
AM: Right. Ok.
DR: And the night we got back the RAF gave us forms that we could send telegrams. So we got telegrams to say we were back.
AM: Yeah.
DR: But -
AM: And that was that but you stayed in for another three years.
DR: Yes. What happened was that when I was shot down I was a flight sergeant but had been interviewed for a commission and the commission came through backdated about a month before I was [laughs] before I was shot down. So I came, when I came back I was actually a flying officer and it rather appealed to me. I thought well here I am, a flying officer, I’ve never been in an officers mess in my life and I was when I got back though and I thought, they gave us interviews to see what we wanted to do and I said, ‘Well I would like, I want to stay on flying.’ And, ‘Oh well, you know everybody wants to do that who wants to stay in.’ People who, others just want to get out. And I applied for a permanent commission and when they put me on flying I thought that’s it I’m getting my permanent commission but it wasn’t so. I extended my service for two years and towards the end of the two years I extended another year. At the end of that time I had a letter telling me that the king thanked me for my services but he didn’t want me anymore. [laughs] So that was that.
AM: Thank you and goodbye.
GR: Yeah.
AM: In the, in that three years though you were flying. Where? Whereabouts? What -
DR: I flew Lancasters then instead of Halifaxes.
AM: Yeah.
DR: Yeah I flew. I was in, well, we had to more or less had to go, start our training again. What happened you see there people there who’d been POWs four or five years so they had, obviously had to have a refresher course if they wanted to go on and so they didn’t really just make a refresher course for us they stuck us on the course that the new entrants was doing, you know, people doing for the first time which was alright. We went back on to Oxfords and I did Oxfords and then on to Wellingtons and then on to the Lancaster Conversion Unit and then from there I went to the central signals establishment which was at, we did about, I think I did a bit over a year there and Cicely and I lived out. It was just after we got married actually I went there and -
GR: ’Cause that’s the one question we’ve never asked. Did you two know each other during the war?
DR: No.
CR: No.
GR: No.
CR: I didn’t even know him.
GR: Right.
DR: Yeah it was quite an interesting job on central signals. We used to, well we got various things. There were two squadrons, one calibration squadron their job was to go around calibrating the approach landings. I forget what they were called it now. The blind flying approach.
GR: Yeah.
DR: That was their main job. We were the development squadron. We were supposed to develop, test fly new things but of course we were test flying things that had been used during the war [laughs] and, but we had other things to do. We used to test the Gee coverage over France and Holland and so on and over Wales and Ireland and so on. We used to have a route to fly and pinpoints to go over and it had two cameras in the aircraft which took pictures simultaneously. One of the ground and one of the set so that they could be compare the -
AM: Right.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
DR: But invariably one of them went wrong so they’d say, ‘Let’s do it again.’ But it was quite interesting. We also had to, people that were doing the calibrating and what not in Germany we used to have to take them over with all their equipment and fetch them back and so on. That was a bit of bind but one of the funniest, probably the funniest thing in my career was when I went to fetch a load back once and they weren’t ready. I went on the Friday and they weren’t ready. They was going to be ready on the Saturday morning so I said, ‘Well I want to be off by 8 o’clock at the latest,’ And they got to get all their equipment there and so on. But anyway when we eventually got them in the aircraft it was the COs monthly parade on the airfield. Lutzendorf I think it was and they’d no parade ground, they used to parade on the runway. So I was about to taxi out and the parade was getting on, forming up on thing there and my temper was getting a little frayed to say the least so I had words with air traffic control and then after a few minutes they came back and said, ‘Well the parade’s going to march off the runway onto the overshoot area until you’ve gone so you’re alright to go along there, turn and take off.’ So I, ‘Fair enough. I can do that.’ And they all marched off and I got along there and I turned, as I turned I opened up the throttle up. All the caps went. [laughs]
AM: Wonderful.
DR: Didn’t stop to see them sorting them out.
AM: And off you went into the wide blue yonder. What did you do after the, after you’d left the RAF?
DR: Sorry?
AM: What did you do after you’d left the RAF?
DR: I went back to the bank.
AM: To the bank.
DR: Yeah. Eventually. Yeah.
AM: At Skegness?
CR: He did one flight in a Lanc over Biggin Hill didn’t you? The first Biggin Hill.
DR: Yeah. Well yes just before I came out. It was the first time they’d done this Battle of Britain day thing you know and all the stations wanted a Lancaster. They all wanted a Lancaster and -
CR: Winston Churchill was there.
DR: And I think our people agreed to supply about four or five or something. Well I wasn’t going to do it on this Saturday. I know they didn’t put my name down for it anyway and then my boss, the squadron leader, said to me, he said, ‘Why don’t you come with me?’ he said, ‘I’m going down to Biggin Hill. We’ll have a day out’. So I said, ‘Alright.’ So that was on the Monday. On the Tuesday he went off on leave. He said, ‘I’ll see you on Saturday morning.’ ‘Alright.’ On the Friday afternoon air traffic got on to me to say Biggin Hill had been on the phone and they would like the Lancaster to go down today for obvious reasons. They’d only got a short runway and if you make a mess of it they can clear the mess up before the crowds come in tomorrow. I mean that was obvious what it was. So, you know they said Duchy is on leave. You’ll have to bring it so I thought fair enough. I took it down and -
GR: Sorry to interrupt you but when you do flights like that -
DR: Yeah.
GR: How many crew did you have? Did you have like a flight engineer with you, a radio operator?
DR: I think I had a navigator, a radio operator and, an engineer, I think.
GR: Yeah. So the four of you.
DR: I don’t think we needed any more than that.
GR: Yeah. Sorry.
DR: I had a lot of odd bods who wanted to get away for the weekend you know. Poured out when I said that.
AM: But you didn’t really need a rear gunner.
GR: No [laughs]
DR: But no it was funny actually and of course it was a big display.
GR: Yeah.
DR: The guest of honour was Winston Churchill.
GR: It was the first Biggin Hill Air Show.
DR: Yes. The first Biggin. Yeah. Winston Churchill was and the funny thing was that, you see nearly all the other things were fighters and doing aerobatics and so on and the CO of the squadron came to me and he said, ‘Would you do three engine flying?’ So I said, ‘Yes. I can do three engine flying. I’ll do two engine flying.’ ‘Oh that would be nice,’ he said. Afterwards I thought I’m an idiot because we were supposed to practice three and two engine flying but the maximum height, rather the minimum you weren’t, I think for two engine flying you weren’t supposed to come below five thousand feet. So I thought well five thousand feet they won’t see me. So Winston Churchill’s going to be down there. What the heck do I do? I think eventually I compromised a bit but I didn’t, I didn’t go the full hog down to a thousand feet or anything like that. We went down a bit below what we were supposed to do. I did the two and two on one side look spectacular.
GR: What you flew with two -
DR: Two on one side.
AM: So both on one side.
DR: Yeah.
GR: And both -
AM: Going and the other one’s not.
DR: Yeah.
AM: Does that not make you –
GR: Yeah.
DR: No.
AM: Swing around.
DR: You hold it alright and the -
AM: Ok.
DR: But the big shock, the only trouble you get is if, if they cool down to much and you can’t get the flaming things started [laughs]
GR: I’m sure you were alright.
DR: Yeah but -
CR: Would you like a cup of tea or anything?
AM: I think we’re done. I think we’re done actually.
GR: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to switch off now.
[machine paused]
GR: It wasn’t Len McNamara was it?
DR: Sorry?
GR: It wasn’t Len McNamara.
DR: No I don’t think so. I don’t think it was McNamara. No.
GR: Because Len had rear gunners.
AM: The one question I would have asked as well was just, so you flew the Halifax operationally but then the Lancaster after so which -
DR: Yeah.
AM: Was your favourite and what are the pros and cons of the two?
DR: Well I’m still a Lanc, er a Halifax man.
GR: Halifax.
DR: I think it’s nicer to handle. Certainly nicer to get in and out of and you know there was not a lot to choose between them I think but it’s on things like that that I would judge it.
GR: And to be fair everybody who we’ve asked the question of who -
AM: Prefers Halifax.
GR: Served on Lancs and Halifax they all said the Halifax.
DR: Halifax. Yeah.
GR: They said, ‘Alright the Lanc -
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Title
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Interview with Douglas Robinson
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-11
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Sound
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ARobinsonD160911
PRobinsonD1601
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:33:56 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Lithuania
Zimbabwe
Germany--Berlin
Lithuania--Šilutė
Great Britain
Lithuania--Klaipėda
Mediterranean Sea
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-09
1944
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas was in the Local Defence Volunteers before joining the Royal Air Force as a pilot. After Babbacombe, he did initial training at Scarborough and then in Rhodesia. Initial flight training in Harare on Tiger Moths was followed by service training on Oxfords at Bulawayo. Douglas had an eventful passage home when his troop ship, the Oronsay, was torpedoed by Italian submarine Archimede and he spent eight days in a lifeboat.
After returning to the UK, Douglas went to an Operational Training Unit to get crewed up, initially at RAF Wymeswold and then RAF Castle Donington on Wellingtons. He went to RAF Marston Moor and on to 158 Squadron at RAF Lissett on Halifaxes where he describes an encounter with Group Captain Leonard Cheshire. Douglas relates how a rear gunner refused to fly and was court martialled.
Douglas flew three operations to Berlin and on the third took a direct hit. After most of the crew baled, he managed to land in the Netherlands before being taken prisoner. Stalag Luft VI, on the border of East Prussia and Lithuania, was followed by Stalag Luft IV after the Russians approached. For three months Douglas was part of the Long March before being rescued by the 6th Airborne Division and flown back home.
Douglas stayed on for three years after the war. He was posted to RAF Wing and went up to Cosford as a flying officer. He attended a Lancaster Conversion Unit and flew Lancasters. He finished at a development squadron at the Central Signals Establishment. He recalls flying a Lancaster at the first Biggin Hill Air Show in front of Winston Churchill.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
158 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
forced landing
Gee
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military discipline
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Lissett
RAF Marston Moor
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
strafing
submarine
Sunderland
the long march
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/567/8835/AFarrC160524.2.mp3
0341f54adc352871ee6ef3383c67e071
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Farr, Colin
C Farr
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Farr, C
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An oral history interview with Colin Farr (Royal Air Force).
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2016-05-24
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Transcription
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AS: OK so, okay, I think, I think we’re ready to go now, I think we’re recording. This is ‒, so let’s start. This is Andrew Sandler interviewing Colin Farr at his home in Ilford ‒
CF: In Essex.
AS: On the ‒, is it 24th of May 2016?
CF: Yes.
AS: Can we start off Colin, by asking you how you got involved in the RAF in the first place?
CF: Well, I was working as a youngster in a wholesale warehouse, and as soon as I knew the war was coming, I didn’t tell my parents anything about it, I just went straight, because I had my leg in a plaster down my knee to my ankle because I’d fallen down the stairs in the warehouse I was working in ‒, right opposite ‒, oh dear, St Pauls ‒
AS: So, you were working in the city of London?
CF: Oh yes, I started as a youngster.
AS: Yes, you were saying you had your leg in plaster.
CF: And so, I went into the first place I could see in Ilford and I said, ‘I’ve come to volunteer’, and I won’t use his language, but he swore at me and said, ‘We won’t want bloody strangers, we don’t want any invalids’, because I had my leg in plaster. He didn’t know that I was having er ‒, therapy for my leg and I forget what it was called, but there was a lady in Wellesley Road in Ilford and she used to put a pipe round my leg and then a wet towel, and she did a lot of work on my leg to get me into the Air Force. Anyway, funnily enough you bring that in, to start with, I was called up to go to East Ham to sign in somewhere in East Ham, it was a school, when I got there half, [laugh] half the class that I was with at school was there, yes there were about eighteen of us, and I’ll come back on this which will be interesting because then I had to wait for a medical, and though I’d had my cast off my left leg was still suspect.
AS: I have a few things
CF: That’s not my log book.
AS: I know it’s not your log book but ‒
CF: Where did you find that?
AS: It might jog a few memories for you.
CF: Thank you very much. Do you want me to go on?
AS: Yes, please do.
CF: I forget where I was now.
AS: You were just signing on and you found that half your class were there.
CF: Yes, and anyway, eventually I was called to the colours and was pleased to get in and start square bashing at ‒, oh dear, right on the coast somewhere. Yarmouth? Somewhere like that? It could have been Yarmouth. Anyway, I managed to get through into that and then there was quite a long wait to get through to where I was doing my training, marching, rifle drill, bayonet fixing, and jab it into a sack and I got through all that, and then I eventually started at Brighton post office, where the teachers were, who worked there, and they were teaching Morse. That’s where I started going from four words a minute up to twenty-six words a minute, send and receive, and it’s a strange thing that because all through the war, not through it but coming to the war, I wanted to get on to my next stage, ‘cause I knew I’d got to do the wireless, which was taking a wireless to bits and pieces, which we did in one of the museums. They had bits of the radio and transmitters there and you had to put the thing right, ‘cause some clever devil purposely had taken something out of it or dislodged it or put it in back to front, and we had to know to ‒, we knew that was wrong and we’d put it right and made it, the mechanism, work properly, and that was very, very interesting. And then of course, I moved on from there, ‘cause that took place in ‒, somewhere in London and it was very close to a big place, all round, had flats all round it, and we were billeted in flats there, where all the music comes from in London, Kensington, can’t think of the name of the place. Anyway, from there I advanced and I went on to further courses on Morse, and then I went into somewhere else and when I went in, they said, ‘What speed can you do?’ so I said, ‘Why don’t you test me?’ And I was taking it down roughly at about twenty-four words a minute in Morse, I was doing it, you know, just like that and they said, ‘You’re doing very well, keep going, keep going’, and from that, I advanced from that, and by then I had done my gunnery, not gunnery, rifle drill, marching and that and that and all the basics. So now I’d got to start really working on the trade that I wanted to get into, wireless air gunner. Well that then took me to Brighton where I was taught all about the radio itself, and the extras that went with it and it was a very interesting course indeed and I got through that, and then, ‘cause I was able to do so many words a minute, send and receive, I was already going to an air gunnery school. Oh no, I had a posting to Ireland, and they put me on a post in Ireland with four servers up on a box with a roof, where they had all the layout of the land below them. They had twenty of these posts up there and we were on one of them, and what was happening, the Germans ‒, ‘course we were getting the weather reports that we get, because it comes from the east and goes west, so we had it before they had it. Pretty good, wasn’t it? Whether somebody out there was blowing it for us their way I don’t know, but that was how it worked and while I was on there, I heard Morse come through, because I took everything down, and from another post, and I took it down, German submarine in gulf, what do you call them when they’re coming in? Gulf? Not gulf ‒, entrance through into the ‒, to get ‒, thinking it was [unclear] German, sorry, thinking it was southern Ireland and they made a mistake. They came in and got caught because the boys on there ‒. I was on nineteen post. I think it was eighteen post spotted it because it came in round the corner on surface, thinking it was coming through, thought it was in Southern Ireland to fuel up, and what they did, they sent in and the headquarters, there was the Air force there, and it was a Hudson aircraft went up and he flew over the chap and he did this, waved his wings to say, ‘ You’re going to retreat or I’m gonna bomb you or shoot you up’, and they gave in and that was tied up at the place that I could tell you about, also in Ireland, because I was posted there for a year. Didn’t like it very much but it was an education.
AS: How long were you in training?
CF: Oh dear, I started Morse training, from that I passed my wireless, then I was eventually, we went down to er ‒, these places, these places get me, it was in Wales, Bridgend, I think it was Bridgend, and there I started my gunnery course and that was very interesting news, air to air, and air to ground, and ground to ground, so it was quite interesting ‘cause they had a big area with things on tracks would be moving, and there were going round, coming round posts, and bushes would suddenly appear, you know, and of course, you open fire and start shooting. They were on electric rails. Very interesting. Well, we got through that and I’m afraid we had too much to drink because as we [unclear], we had to get on a certain train to come out of Ireland and we threw all our rucksacks on the line, and we had all the booze, we had a good drink [laugh]. Anyway, eventually we came back and we got on the train and that was the end of that. So, then I thought, well now I could start flying, thank God, and I was posted to a place called Yatesbury and there, you see the little cross on the wall, with a poppy? See the aircraft just to the left there? That’s a Procter, a single engine aircraft, well there we had to go up in that and tune the radio into a frequency they gave you and start sending Morse, which we did from a book, you got in this and the pilot he said, the sergeant said to me, ‘The pilot is Dutch’, but he said, ‘He will explain with his hands’, [unclear] and that means let the ariel out and all he said was, ‘Lose ariel, pay fifty pounds for it’, ‘cause it went out so long and they was all lead balls on the steel and they went right the way out behind. Well suddenly he dug me in the back and said ‒, so I said, ‘What’s wrong?’ ‘Wind up’. We wound the thing up. I couldn’t hear anything. And what had happened, we’d run out of petrol. This Procter, the very first aircraft, with the cross in the middle and that’s the first time I ever went up in an aircraft. Well, this fella let it float and float and float and we finished up in a field of vegetables growing, carved a lot of them up. Anyway, we got out and he went across, I waited ‘cause I got my equipment, and he went over the fence or something into an aerodrome which was quite near because we didn’t want to go floating in case it crashed, so we’d be safer going in a vegetable field, which I think it was right. Anyway, it was quite fun really because eventually he had a jeep come out to pick me up and take me back to Yatesbury. Well, I went off at twenty to twelve and as I got out of the jeep, I looked at my watch, I said to the sergeant, ‘Cor Sergeant that was good timing. It’s twenty to one, I’m going to dinner’. He said, ‘You’re not getting that one’, and he sent me up straightaway, so I had another hours flying. Anyway, I got through that and then ‒, I won’t go into the trouble I had, well I had no trouble, but the thing is that they wanted me ‘cause I could do Morse and I was useful, and I turned out to be quite a useful person, I would be pleased to say because the navigator suddenly says to me over the intercom, ‘Get us a bearing’, and I said, ‘OK’, but all I did was, I didn’t have a clue where we were, but I just looked at the south coast thinking, well, I know south’s that way, I’d find a place and I’d look in my book and I get their frequency, and I’d tune my radio up on that frequency and when I catch it, it goes ‘burr’, like that, so I clip my clip down on the key that I send Morse out on, so it’s a continual ‘burr’, and then I have to tune my transmitter in to that frequency until I get a ‘burr’ on the ‒, from the, transmitter and the transmitter picks that key up as well, its burring so I know I’ve got the right one, take my finger off that and then I just go ‘burr’, I ask for a bearing and they give me one and I give it to the navigator. Well, I could do that in three minutes and that’s getting a bearing from England. Yeah, I was, I was very quick on that. I enjoyed doing it, it was nice, and then of course we had all sorts of funny things happen when we were flying. One of the things that has always stuck in my mind, our navigator said to me, because he sat, no, I sat here and he was sitting that way. This was the port side. I sat here, and my receiver was here, and my transmitter was up here, and I sat there and this was the mid upper gunner’s legs and we were all sitting, I could touch the ‒, he was standing there, the chap in charge of the petrol, the flight engineer, and then we had the pilot, he was beyond the navigator, the bomb aimer was down there on his stomach and the rear gunner. That was how we are and I was sitting. Anyway, we went on one of these trips, coming home from Germany and quite amusing, our navigator said, ’Well, we’re on the way home now’. So, he stood up and he said, ‘You know what? All these years, no, all this time’, he said, ‘I’ve never looked out of the dome at the top’. He was a tall man like yourself and he got up there and suddenly he says, ‘Good God’, he said, ’Do you know there’s a fleet of American bombers coming’, He said, ’There’s eleven of them across and they’re doing this’. Well, that meant they were lost, so my navigator said to Sid, ‘They want to follow’, so Sid just waved our wings, that was the pilot, yes, he was the pilot, a very nice man. There’s my pilot. Anyway, do you know how many aircraft there were out? Eleven lots of three. And as we went out that way to go across the channel, these turned onto our tail so we led them right from out of Germany, into France and across over the water. When we got to England, we thought, ‘Well, they’ll know where they are now’, so we carried on, we were in Yorkshire. Do you know, they followed us all the way to Yorkshire? We were still flying on three engines ‘cause my engine had been hit and it wasn’t working. It just stopped, so we were flying on three engines, we kept going. Anyway, this lot followed us all the way, not up to where they [unclear], ‘cause our navigator said, ‘Oh’, he said, ‘they’re all in the Cambridgeshire area, they’ll land there’. They didn’t, they followed us on and on and on and when we got to, almost to Leconfield, where I was in Yorkshire, our navigator said, ‘We’ve got thirty-three American bombers that have followed us all the way from Germany to get back home’. Anyway, so as we’d been on three engines and fuel was getting low, our cap wouldn’t allow us to land, He said, ‘No, you keep your height and stay. Let this lot in’. So, these thirty-three American bombers landed before we could go in. Fortunately, we were alright, but they were having to put them, park them, behind the houses, putting anything, string, not string, straw or grass or anything on them. They had to do it themselves, camouflage it so if the Jerries’ had come and seen that lot, they would’ve sent more over. So, we had the Americans. Anyway, they had a conference in the morning with our Group Captain. He said, ‘Why aren’t you taught ‒’, He said, ’I’m sorry’, he said, ’We’re not taught, we have to read the map’, so they read the map. They were given a map evidently and a book and they’re told on the day. They’re given a piece of paper and they’re told, ’You’re going to such and such a place’, and they mark it all the way where you got to make, to that town and this and that, and that’s how they did it. That’s how they were told. That’s how the cap found out from them. But that was one incident we had. Another one is ‒, oh I’ll tell you about that. Can you see the flag with the ‒? That’s our crew there, just below it, there’s a hole in the wall, well that hole happened to our aircraft. We were ‒, unfortunately, our rear gunner, very good gunner as well, he had to immediately leave, his wife was dying. So, this was one of our later flights, or trips, and when we started going, we got to get down to ‒, let me think, I get some of these things mixed up now. Oh [pause], where did I say I was going to now? Yes, it’s gone. It’s funny how things in your brain just slips like that but I shall be able to pick it up somewhere. How did I start it?
AS: You were talking about the picture over there.
CF: Oh yes, yes, yes, that picture, that picture yes, I’ve got it now. Our rear gunner went on holiday, not on holiday, leave ‘cause his wife was very ill, she was dying, and now, whoops, you got it? We had a spare wireless, rear gunner, spare and his name, believe it or not, was Churchill, no relation, but Churchill. Do you know he saved our lives? And so did a German, a German fighter saved our lives. What happened was, we was flying along and suddenly Churchill came up and it was the first time we’d heard his voice on the mic, he said, ’Bandits, pile of bandits ten o’clock, dive, dive, dive’, and of course [unclear], we just climbed down from our bombing height of nineteen thousand three hundred feet down to fifteen thousand three hundred feet just like that. Well, suddenly the rear gunner said, or Mister Churchill said, ’My God’, he said, ’As you went down, you nearly hit an aircraft which was underneath you, which was lined up with those machine guns like that on top’, which were really incendiaries. They explode, he was underneath just lining up on us, so that was the second bit of luck we had ‘cause we nearly knocked him out, ‘cause we just went down like that you see and we could have taken him with us. Our rear gunner said, ‘God, he just suddenly flashed up in the air’. It must have shaken him with this bomber came down on him. We didn’t touch him and that was that. So now we were at fifteen thousand feet, fifteen thousand three hundred feet instead of being at nineteen thousand three hundred so we had to carry on, ‘cause we decided that if we climb up to nineteen thousand three hundred, we wouldn’t have enough fuel to get home, so rather than give the Jerries a rest, we said we’d bomb at fifteen thousand while we’re flat. Anyway, we went in and did what we had to do and come home and that’s when we picked up with these Americans that were coming on the way home. We were three engines only and this lot followed us all the way up to Leconfield. Oh, it was incredible. But oh, we had quite a number of er ‒, well I went home on leave, it might have been a Wednesday or something like that, and my mother and father said, ’Tell me, were you bombing on Sunday?’ So, I said, ‘Why do you ask?’ This is in Ilford, [unclear] Ilford, and she said, ‘Our letter box was going like this, rattling, shaking off its hinges’. Do you know, we were out there about six o’clock in the morning, bombing, and when we came back to England they were still going out? They were bombing one of the big ports in France that the Germans had taken, they must have blown it to smithereens I should think and we were on that there.
AS: How did you come to be in the RAF? How did you choose the RAF?
CF: Oh, I didn’t have to choose. I wanted to go in the RAF.
AS: But why?
CF: Well, I wanted to fly, I wanted to fly and I’d also get my own back, my own back. When the bombs went down, I said to myself, ’That’s for you England. Nothing to do with me’. I felt evil about the way they were scattering things and doing things all over the place. I mean, I had still to go to work before I joined the Air Force and climbing over barrels this size and about that tall of water being drawn out of the Thames, and all around the big barrels were screw-ons where the firemen put their hose on, and they were on top, putting fires out still, which were set fire in London during the night and I was trying to get to work in the morning. Buses weren’t going backwards and forwards, the number nines, the elevens, you couldn’t get on either, they didn’t know which way they were going to be sent so we had to go back to Tottenham Court Road and around the back, doubles. Oh, it was terrible but I’m lucky, I got over it but where I was, unfortunately, I fell down on the back stairs getting out of St Pauls, the Porser Lease is the name of the company, right opposite the clock of St Pauls and I fell down the back stairs. In fact, I stumbled because they were all rushing to get out and I fell down on this leg and this is the consequence. I hit my knee on the concrete with a metal edge and my cast was ‒, that’s where the cast came in on my leg and when I went to get through my medical, it was a miracle. How luck was with me I don’t know, because there you had to catch it with your arm, put your foot on the chair, and stand up, one, two, three, do it a dozen times and my left leg wouldn’t have lifted me off the floor once so I would have failed. And at that very second, this man was called away so I slipped this off quick and slid it up this arm, and I said to this chap next to me, ‘cause [unclear] I done the left arm, so I slip this one off and slip it up here, and I said to the man this side, ’Excuse me, would you mind if they do me, because I want to keep up with my friends’, ‘Oh sure’, so I just tightened it up and I did it with my left leg, no my right leg, and I got away with it and that never troubled me during the war, never troubled me at all. In fact, I’d been very lucky, it isn’t really painful, it is painful sometimes but I’ve got so used to it. But anyway, coming back to that hole in the wall there, we were coming back from this trip and we were not out of Germany and suddenly, there’s a terrific bang and a whoosh, and I saw this thing come up here through the floor, and it went up out through the roof, and the navigator was standing this side of it so it missed him and that’s what it did. It left a hole in the aircraft about this size, huge thing, it was brass. I was looking, I actually saw the thing come up and go through there and I tell you what, it frightened the life out of me but it didn’t go off. The reason why, ‘cause they, the Germans, had already sussed out the height that we were bombing at. This was one of them that came up and of course, it wanted to go on up, so it went up. It turned us on our side which the pilot had to rectify to carry on flying home [laugh]. That was a bit of luck.
AS: It was.
CF: Oh, there was so many things that you have that go through your mind, and many of them I don’t remember but suddenly they do come back, you know, like meeting an old friend. I’ve no aircrew friends now at all, they’re all gone. How old do you think I am?
AS: No.
CF: Have a guess.
AS: Um, ninety-five.
CF: I’ll be ninety-six in three weeks’ time.
AS: Oh, good.
CF: Yeah, but I’m still tough.
AS: All the people I’ve interviewed have been between ninety-two and ninety-five.
CF: Am I the oldest one then?
AS: No, I don’t think you are.
CF: Have you got some a hundred?
AS: No, I interviewed somebody who was just a week off ninety-six a few months ago.
CF: Well. I’m ninety-six on the 29th of June.
AS: So where were you born Colin?
CF: 61 Alton Road, Ilford, Essex.
AS: And what was the date?
CF: When I was born?
AS: Yes.
CF: It must have been 1920.
AS: Was your father in the First World War?
CF: Yes, he was.
AS: And what did he do in the First War?
CF: He was a ‒, awful job. He was a stretcher-bearer with the RAC, they called them [unclear], the Royal Army Medical Corps and the Germans saved his life. He was picking up wounded, they could be Germans, they could be French, they could be English, they just find a body, put it on the stretcher, bring it in and go out again while the shells were coming down and God knows what. Must have been terrible. And suddenly, the warning went up from base and spread quickly, the Germans are now using gas. My father hadn’t got his gas mask with him at all but he saw a dead German laying in a bomb shell and he slipped down the side and he grabbed his mask and put it on, so a German helped him.
AS: Gosh!
CF: Incredible, isn’t it? ‘Cause really it was a German fighter to start with at the start of that story I told you, started saving us ‘cause if we had gone up and bombed at nineteen thousand three hundred feet, we could have been shot down. Of course, the shell that came through wasn’t fused to go off until nineteen thousand three hundred feet, that’s why it went [unclear] straight through the aircraft and turned us on our side. Where I was standing, on a frame which they used to change the engines, you know, when the unscrew them, all the fittings, and take an engine out and put a new one in, and that was the frame and we had to stand on the outside of it and that was taken from the inside of the aircraft.
AS: What aircraft were you flying in?
CF: Halifaxes, oh yes, I must tell you a funny story. This is real true honest; well, you’ll hardly know it. We were naturally flying Halifaxes before these more modern [unclear].
AS: Lancasters.
CF: Lancasters. We came to ‒, were you at Lincoln where there were seventy-seven thousand people? You know what they did there? We always said those, what did they fly? They were flying ‒, oh gosh, anyway, it doesn’t matter. They said there was going to be an air display and all the rest of it, and we sat there and waited and airplanes were flying backwards and forwards and then they said, ’We’ll be sending our ‒,’ oh I can’t think ‒, what’s the name of the other bomber? Derek, what’s the name of ‒
DF: Lancaster? And London, not Lincoln.
CF: Lancaster. We had a Manchester, a Lancaster, they said, ‘It won’t be long now before the Lancaster came over. It’s going to fly over and show you his steel’. It was all quiet for quite a while then suddenly they said, ‘We are very sorry, but the Lancaster is out of service, we can’t get it to fly’, [laughs] and what happened the same thing, and we laughed our heads off, the ‒, came over at [unclear] thousands, the Queen arranged for our memorial, the Lancaster came over and he flew this way and he dropped the poppies, thousands, millions of them, and they went three fields away and boy, you could hear them say, ‘Typical Lancasters’ [laughs], ‘Typical Lancasters, they don’t even know how to allow for the wind’, oh dear, that was funny [laughs]. Do you know there was seventy-seven thousand people in that park? They never thought they’d have as many. Do you know we had a continual run, continual, all the time, of lorries coming in and unloading chairs, you could see them in the distance. You was with us Derek, wasn’t you Derek? It was packed solid. It was lovely though, really enjoyable.
AS: So, it was just Halifaxes you were on?
CF: Oh yeah, no, I mean, I started on, the first aircraft I ever flew on was the one without the fuel, was the ‒, oh God, I forgotten the name of that now, and then we went on to the next one, which was the de Havilland and we ‒, I was well trained as a wireless op but I was still at the end of my training. Do you know the chappie that got on with wireless op, he had been drinking and he lay down on the floor and went to sleep, yeah, pilot says [unclear]. I says, ‘Yeah’, so he says, ‘Come up would you?’ and I went up there. I don’t know what happened to this one.
AS: How many sorties did you do altogether?
CF: Thirty-eight.
AS: Oh gosh.
CF: Oh, a lot of them did a lot more. I enjoyed it. We were well into Germany, well in, and I came out as well. You see that big stone that’s on the wall, almost to the door? My son took that for me. That’s the stone they put down, the Air Force, ‘cause that was our last vision of England. We used to fly out over that and we used to say, ’I wonder if we’ll see the old ‒.’ What is the place called Derek?
DF: Beachy Head.
CF: Ey?
DF: Beachy Head
CF: Yeah, ‘Wonder if we’ll see that place Beachy Head again’, and it had another name as well, I can’t think what it is, but we did.
AS: And what were you doing when the end of the war came?
CF: What was I doing at the end of the war? I think I must have been in Ireland because ‒I’m pretty sure I was in Ireland. No, I didn’t go to Ireland before I flew, it was afterwards, ‘cause it took us eighty-two hours to get to er ‒, somewhere in the middle of England to get to that place where we were in Ireland. When we got there, we went into a village. They got a lorry, picked us up with our kit, I forget how many of us there were. That’s where we looked for all these posters round the island for Germans coming to try to get the weather report. They used to fly around this way ‘cause you see, we had the reports early, came from the west, but the Germans couldn’t get it from the west, not until after we had it, so we always had a bit of a lead on them which was very fortunate.
AS: What did you do after the end of the war? How did you settle back into civilian life?
CF: Quite easy. I went back to Porser Lease at St Paul’s Church Yard and the man in the department for stockings and socks and things of that sort, he said, ‘I promise you you’ll be a traveller for me’. ‘Cause I wanted to be a commercial traveller, I didn’t want to sit there doing a load of work in the warehouse so ‒, well, first of all, when I came back to see this buyer, he’d been killed during the war so I lost that exit. So, I went into dress fabrics and I was measuring out roll by roll, rolls and rolls and rolls of it. Do you want a cup of tea Derek?
Other: Tea of coffee?
DF: Coffee please
Other: Sugar, milk?
DF: Milk, no sugar, thank you.
CF: Yes, I was saying ‒
AS: You went back to St Pauls.
CF: Yes, yes, and when I got there, this buyer had been killed so I thought, ‘I’d better get on the road, I must get on the road, I must get on the road and I’m going to get on the road’, and I told the director straight, I said, ‘I want to become a traveller’, I said, ‘I’ve been working here years now, before the war, and I’ve just come back and now I want to work for myself as an agent’, and he said, ‘Well, we’ll get one’, ‘cause he’d heard I was going to go in stockings and, anyway, a friend of mine, a friend, was working at the same shop or warehouse, he left and went to the west end and he heard about a job and he told me of it and I went and got the job just like that and I started selling, and boy, I was happy. It was lovely. I started and they said to me, ‘What area would you like?’ and I said, ‘I’d like Essex, Sussex, Kent or more in the middle, Middlesex but’, I said, ’I don’t want anything with a London number’, so he said, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘Because London is too congested. You’ve got to queue up’. Travellers. I mean, I went from one of the firms I was working for before the war, I went in with a sample to see the buyer in one shop and there was about seven men in the queue, so I thought, ’I don’t want this’. So, I said, ’No, London’s out’. Anyway, I had a phone call on a Sunday evening, there used to be a most beautiful orchestra playing nice music, and when he finished about eleven o’clock. the phone rang and the voice came on the phone, he said, ‘Is that Mr Farr?’ I said, ’Yes’. He said, ‘This is Mr So and So’, he said, ‘I’ve just read your advert in the “Traveller’s News” that you’re looking for an agency and you worked in a wholesale warehouse before the war’. He said, ’I wonder whether you’d be interested’, so I said, ’Yes’. Shall I carry on where I leave off?
AS: Yes, please do.
CF: Where was I?
AS: You were looking for a job travelling.
AF: Yes, yes, and this chap, he rang up Sunday night and he said, ‘Forgive me for ringing. I’ve seen your advert’, he said, ‘I’m looking for a traveller’. He said, ‘How old are you?’ and I told him, and he said, ‘That’s just the age’. I said, ‘Well I was working for Porcer Lease before the, before the war, and I said as soon as I got out, I wanted to become a traveller’. My father said would I work with him and I said, ‘No’. My brother’s firm asked me to work with ‒, going in working the same warehouse. I said, ‘No, I’m going to do it my way’, and I jolly well did and do you know, I travelled the whole length from Margate to Penzance. I did the Jersey Islands and Guernsey and I came up from right down in the corner from as far as you could go, Ilfracombe, and I’d creep up until I got to Bath, Bristol and then I go further up until I get into the middle of England, and I was working on my own, just with a business card and samples and do you know, I made a bloody fortune? I did well, I did well, and you know, I was so proud, and do you know, and my brother said, ’How particularly good you did’, because he just worked for Breckells, you may have heard of Breckells? Breckells underwear, shirts?
AS: No, I haven’t
CF: Well, they’re still going but unfortunately, they took him, oh I’ve got my hat on, they took him unfortunately away from Breckells into the fire service, and then it was rather unfortunate because he wanted to go in the Forces, the Air force, but they said, ’No, you’ve been trained as a fireman, you’re in the fire service’.
AS: When the war finished, did you keep in contact with any of the members of your crew?
CF: Oh gosh yes. Unfortunately, because my membership ran out [unclear] and it wasn’t the contact that I really looked forward to. All of them funerals.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Colin Farr
Creator
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Andrew Sadler
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-24
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFarrC160524
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
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00:54:06 audio recording
Description
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Colin was born in Ilford in 1920 and at the outbreak of war was working in a London warehouse. Seeing the bomb damage around him he wanted to join the RAF and gain revenge, so he volunteered. Unfortunately he had a plaster cast on his leg, following an accident, so was rejected. He was later called up and found half of his school class at the reception centre.
Enlisting as a wireless operator/air gunner his Morse code speed was very fast and he was sent to Ireland to monitor German signals. He spotted a German U-boat entering a bay and an alerted Hudson aircraft captured it. After further wireless training he was sent to RAF Stormy Down for gunnery training. He then continued his flight training at RAF Yatesbury where his first flight in a Proctor ended in a crash landing as the Dutch pilot had run out of fuel. He was immediately sent back up so as to not lose his nerve. Colin describes in detail how to take radio bearings
He remembers one momentous operation when the replacement rear gunner ordered the pilot to take evasive action by diving, which was very fortuitous as they nearly collided with an enemy fighter, flying beneath them, which was lining up to attack them. After diving to a lower level, a shell passed through the fuselage without exploding, narrowly missing all the crew. With one engine stopped they struggled home and met a flight of United States Army Air Forces bombers who were lost and who followed the Halifax home to RAF Leconfield and landed there. The problem was attributed to the American system of pre-flight briefing.
Colin flew 38 operations and upon leaving the RAF took up a career in sales.
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Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Bridgend
England--London
Germany
Ireland
Contributor
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Terry Holmes
Vivienne Tincombe
aircrew
bombing
Halifax
Hudson
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Proctor
RAF Leconfield
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Yatesbury
submarine
wireless operator
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Barlow, Cecil Roy
C R Barlow
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Cecil Roy Barlow (1920 - 2018, 425822, Royal Air Force).
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Barlow, CR
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Cecil Roy Barlow
Description
An account of the resource
Ces Barlow volunteered for training with the RAAF and completed his pilot training in Canada. He was kept on to instruct new pilots and converted to fly Mosquitoes. On one search trip to look for U-boat activity a German aircraft attacked them and shot out one of the engines killing one member of the crew. While training crew an aircraft crashed into his and one of his trainees was killed.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.
Creator
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John Horsburgh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarlowCR180404
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:30:05 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
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Julie Williams
aircrew
crash
Mosquito
pilot
submarine
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/PGoodmanLS1501.2.jpg
4d6c119b0afafd239cd1395cc73a9296
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/AGoodmanLS160407.1.mp3
7215a8a462ca34501fb64632597de4b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today we’re in Bracknell talking to Benny Goodman about his experiences in the RAF and today is the 7th of April 2016 and Benny is going to start off with his earliest recollections going through to what he did after the war. So what do you remember first Benny?
LBSG: When the war broke out you mean?
CB: No. When you, your earliest recollections of life.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: In the family.
LBSG: We lived, we’re Londoners from a long way back and I remember I was born in Maida Vale and lived there for the first five or six years of my life and then we moved to Hampstead and we lived there and we were still there when the war broke out.
CB: Keep going.
LBSG: Yes. I was -
CB: So you went to school locally.
LBSG: No.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I was a boarder. I was away at school.
CB: Where were you at school?
LBSG: In Herne Bay.
CB: In Herne Bay.
LBSG: Herne Bay College. Yes.
CB: Right. And if you just keep going on what you -
LBSG: Well, I left, yes, because my father -
CB: So -
LBSG: Had, I’ll keep going, an interest in an electrical engineering factory in Birmingham. It was considered that I should go up there and study at night and work during the day in the factory. I did this and found it fairly hard going doing, doing both things because there was no, very little free time. However, in September 1939 we all listened to a broadcast by the prime minister who told us that we were at war with Germany and so that of course made quite a difference to me. I decided to contact my parents. I was about a hundred miles from London at the time and discuss with my father what I wanted to do. I was only eight/nineteen, eighteen or nineteen at the time. It was agreed that I would go home and I decided I wanted to join the RAF. My father backed me up. My mother was horrified but in the end I went to a recruiting office at, in Brent, North London. It was the nearest RAF one and did all the necessary things to make sure that I would get in, get in to the RAF. Of course I said I wanted to be a pilot. And the officer, it was a flying officer who interviewed me raised his eyebrows. I didn’t really realise what that meant and I noticed he’d put down on the form that he was filling in for me ACH ACH/GD and I thought that meant that I was definitely going to start training as a pilot immediately. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. In due course I went for a general medical and when I passed that I was sent across to the RAF section to have an air crew medical which I passed and then we were, we had to be attested as we were volunteers and so we all had a little ceremony within the medical centre. About twenty of us took the oath of allegiance to the king and the crown and all the rest of it. I was then sent on leave for a little while, a few weeks, and got my call up papers and I thought this is it. I’m going to be a pilot in two weeks. Didn’t quite turn out like that. I went to Cardington, kitted out and we did a bit of marching which wasn’t really on the agenda. We didn’t realise we were there until we were posted and eventually, after about ten days we packed our kit bags and were marched off to a railway station and of course nobody had any idea where we were going but we ended up in Bridgenorth and we, and it was snowy, it was snowing, I beg your pardon and the roads were quite icy but we had to march up the hill from the station at Bridgnorth to Bridgenorth RAF camp and it was quite slippery but we all got to the top and we were all very wet behind the ears there’s no doubt about it. We had a flight sergeant barking at us and we ended up in a hut, about twenty of us, well maybe fifteen in a hut and there we went through six weeks of square bashing of every sort, type and description you could imagine. There was a corporal to every hut and he had a bunk to himself in the hut which was, part of our duty was to sweep his bunk out every day and make the bed and we did that of course. We had to. And we had various other delightful jobs as you can imagine. I can remember spending I think a week in the cookhouse peeling potatoes which didn’t impress me very much with, as you can imagine. However, we eventually got a posting, I and another chap and we were told we would be going to RAF Abingdon and we knew that was a straight through course on Whitleys. By straight through I mean you did ground school, you flew a Tiger Moth, and then an Anson and then a Whitley. So we had every hope that we were going to be on that course. There was no reason to suppose that we wouldn’t be. Things turned out rather differently. Instead of that we were sent to a dugout on the airfield and there was a nissen hut there with six beds in it. No, no sheets, no pillow cases, of course. Just blankets that didn’t smell very good and the latrine, latrines had to be dug out and there we lived for about six months and all thoughts of being pilots, we had become ground gunners. We didn’t know it until, until we had to learn all about ground gunning and how to take to pieces a cow gun, that’s a Coventry ordinance work gun, a Lewis watercool gun and so on and we did that pretty well because we were, we had to do it day and night we would, and the only part I remember, of course we had to name every part we, we’d handled but the only part name I can remember was the rear sear retainer keeper and I cannot tell you why I remember it nor do I really remember where it fitted. However, we were there for about six months and we were both quite fed up with it because it was four hours on and two hours off during the day and at night we had to patrol around the airfield every night and challenge anybody who was walking there. Well, we had to challenge, ask for the password and if we didn’t get the right answer we were supposed to arrest them. However, there was no option, we did have to challenge them because the station duty officer and the warrant officer and the orderly officer all at various times would come around with a couple of NCOs and if we didn’t challenge them we were in trouble and we challenged many more airmen and it was winter and they were trying to find their way in the blackout to a Whitley they were working on with their tool bag in one hand and to have some idiot airman like me challenge them saying, ‘Stop. Who goes there,’ And believe me we used to get some fruity juicy answers. We never got a password from them [laughs]. It would be more, would have been more than our life was worth if we’d really tried to try to stop them. I mean it would have been ridiculous. We could, we could see that. And the fear at the time when I was a ground gunner was that the Germans would invade by air at dawn. So at dawn we had to march around the perimeter track with, we always had, by the way one bullet up the spout. That’s one loaded in the, ready for firing but the safety catch was on and we marched around the perimeter track and for some reason we had to wear oxygen, I beg your pardon, gas masks. I don’t know why because if the Germans were dropping paratroops I can’t believe they were going to drop with gasmasks on. However, that was the order so that was it. Our food was brought out in hay boxes. Breakfast, lunch and a sort of tea, dinner and of course as warm as the hay boxes, hay boxes may have been by the time they got around to us on the other side of the airfield in a dugout it wasn’t very warm. But it is extraordinary, you get used to everything and after about three or four months this other chap and I had given up all hopes of becoming pilots or training and in our off duty by the way, we had a off duty half day and if we were lucky occasionally we’d get a pass in to the, go and walk into the local town, in Abingdon but if you could get past the SPs because you went to go, if you went to go out they had to inspect every inch of you and if they didn’t quite like the way your tie was tied or one button didn’t look properly shined then you were sent back and told to come back again so sometimes you never really got your half day off. I don’t know, we got used to it, it’s extraordinary and because we were very young I don’t think we took, I don’t think we got too, took too much umbridge about it and as, I think I’ve just said this other chap and I had given up any idea of being trained as pilots. We thought here we are and here we are going to stay but one day we were sent for and we wondered what we’d done but we were told we were going on a pilot’s course and we couldn’t believe it. It wasn’t at RAF Abingdon because the Whitley course that we saw was the last one that they, the straight through course was the last one and so we never had any hope of getting on that and we, I was sent to, this chap and I separated unfortunately. We’d become good friends by that time but we were separated and I went to a reception centre at Stratford on Avon. Now remember I’d been a ground gunner for six months and my uniform, to say the least, was tatty because we spent day and night in the, well, at night, walking around but days in the gun pit and sometimes we had, when we were off we, it wasn’t, we couldn’t get undressed, we slept in it. I mean everybody did and of course I looked really tatty and crumpled. There was no doubt about that. I walked in to the orderly room in the reception area at Stratford on Avon and somebody barked, ‘Airman you’re on a charge.’ And I looked around. I want to interrupt.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I want to interrupt.
CB: Oh you do. Right.
[machine pause]
LBSG: Am I? Are you ready? ‘Airman. You’re on a charge,’ and I looked around and there was nobody else, well there were people sitting there and working but and I thought, I think he means me. [laughs] So I got up to the desk and said, ‘Yes sergeant, reporting in.’ He said, ‘You’re on a charge airman’. And I said, well I thought it was me so I, ‘You are a disgrace to the service. Look at you.’ And I probably was because my uniform had been slept in and it was probably a bit muddy. I cleaned it as much as I could but you only had one uniform, two shirts, two pairs of socks and I think two pairs of underpants and that’s all we owned in life and no, certainly no other battle dress or cap and I tried to explain to him what I’d been and why I looked that way and he wasn’t in the least interested. He said, ‘You’re a disgrace to the service. You should have kept yourself in better condition.’ Something like that. In better condition. So I was, the next morning, I was, my feet hadn’t touched the ground there really. The next morning I was marched into the OCs office, he was a flying officer and he read the charge, he said, ‘What about this, Goodman?’ And I said, ‘Well sir what I’ve said is true. I’ve slept in the uniform in gun pits and all the rest of it and we don’t have another uniform to wear and that’s why it looks this way.’ He said, Well I do appreciate it but I’m afraid,’ he had to, obviously had to say this, ‘My sergeant is correct and you look very scruffy,’ and so on and so. I got seven days jankers but I wasn’t offered another uniform or another cap or anything so I still walked about. Anyhow, I was there for not very long fortunately. A week or ten days I think and I was posted to, to ITW at Cambridge. And this was really the beginning of the training for, to be a pilot and we had six weeks of intensive ground school and most of us passed out. One or two chaps failed and I felt jolly sorry for them because they had tried hard but I got through and by this time my friend, I think I’ve said this already, had separated. He’d gone somewhere else. I got through and really I’m afraid that’s what interested me most and I was sent to number 17 AFTS at Peterborough and did about forty eight or fifty hours flying on a Tiger Moth and when it was over I was sent for. I’m afraid I’ve always thought, the first thing that comes into my head, what have I done wrong because as an airmen there’s never any good news. If you are sent for there’s usually something wrong. And the flight commander who was a flight lieutenant said to me, ‘You’ve been posted to RAF Woodley,’ which was the Miles factory, the Miles, where they made the Magister, and all, the Martinet and all the rest of them and, ‘You’re going to be an instructor.’ And I thought I don’t want to be an instructor. I’ve only just learned to fly the Tiger Moth. So I went there and we flew Magisters and they of course had brakes and flaps which I’d never seen before in my life and I was supposed to be training as an instructor. Anyhow, I did my, I really didn’t want to be one but I was there and then when I finished there I was posted to, I was going sorry, I was going to Clyffe Pypard, I think it was, as a holding unit. Ok.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I went to Clyffe Pypard as a holding unit and from there we were posted to Canada and I was told I was going to, I think it was 33 SFTS at Carberry and I thought I was going to be instructor but I wasn’t. I was going to learn to fly twin engine aircraft. Ansons. And that for me, I’d only flown these very light aircraft and for me that was a real, absolutely really big step up and so I did the Anson course and night flying was included. The first time I’d ever done that and I must say I take my hat off to the instructor who was with me for the first night circuit because I was all over the sky. We weren’t taught instrument flying by the way, before, they, so I was looking at the instruments at night for the first time, the artificial horizon and all the rest of it never having really relied on them in my day training so for the first circuit I was all over the place, I really was, up and down and the chap just sat there. The instructor. He didn’t say a word and I thought this can’t be right but I managed a circuit of some sort and we came in on the approach and he gave me a couple of hints on the approach. Of course although I’d done quite a bit of flying on the Anson by this time in the day to do it first time at night first time you’d ever flown at night was quite different. Anyhow, I made some sort of a landing and he said, ‘Well yes, ok you’ll be on the, you’ll be flying tomorrow. Night. And if you improve a bit you can go solo,’ and the thought of that terrified me [laughs] I thought I’ve hardly had real control of the aircraft all the time and if the chap hadn’t, the instructor hadn’t been sitting next to me I think I might have given up but I knew he was there if I made any mistakes. Anyhow, we did a few circuits and bumps and he said, ‘You can go solo,’ and again the thought terrified me but he, he sent me solo and I think we did, I did one circuit and bump and came in and he said, ‘Ok Goodman. That’s fine. And you’ll be on the roster tomorrow night, on the duty, you’ll be flying tomorrow night,’ and you’ll do whatever else it was and that’s, ‘You’re well forward now on your completed training.’ And we had to do three cross countries as navigator because in those days when Hampdens were still flying and Wellingtons, I think Whitleys had stopped by then but Hampdens certainly were flying and Wellingtons were. The first fifteen trips when you were on an operational squadron was usually, not always, flown as a navigator, by the chap who was a pilot. I suppose they didn’t, in those days, have enough. I don’t know why but anyhow I think that was part of the pre-war influence. I don’t know. There were observers but I’m not sure in those days how fully trained as navigators they were. Please forgive me all you people who wear O’s because they were highly distinguished and my own bomb aimer was an observer and he used to put me in my place [laughs] that is when I got on the squadron, in 617, yeah. So I passed there and then I thought well I am on my way back now surely. Not a bit of it. I was sent to RAF Kingston, Ontario as an instructor but horrifyingly I was going to instruct acting leading naval airmen. Now, I didn’t have a clue about landing on, or jinking after take-off or dive bombing or any of the things they were being trained for so the flight commander was, they were all experienced chaps except me. I’d never been on ops and during the war that was really a black mark whether you could help it or not. If you hadn’t done an operational tour not even the students looked up to you really. However, there it was and we, one of the, we had a fleet air arm chap and one or two other seasoned pilots in the flight and of course the flight commander and he took me up and it was a Harvard by the way. An important point. It was Harvards. Now, I’d never flown an aircraft with a VP prop and a retractable undercarriage. The Anson was the nearest I ever got and we had to wind the undercarriage up so you didn’t wind it up unless you were doing a cross country so it was a whole new world to me and he took me up and he said, ‘Well you’re an instructor and that’s the end of it but you’re going to learn to fly this,’ and after about an hour and a half again he shook me to the core, he said, ‘Ok you can go solo.’ Do this, that and the other and, ‘I’ll be watching you.’ ‘Yes you will.’ And come in and we’ll have a talk. So I took this mighty beast off, this Harvard, which was a mighty beast to me. It was a beautiful aeroplane actually. I loved flying it when I got used to it. It was fully aerobatic which was wonderful and for me it had lots of ergs. Bags of power. And so I went solo and then he took me up a couple of times and said, ‘Right. You don’t know anything about naval training but you know about, you’re an instructor so I will show you you’re, the first lesson you’ll do and then you’ll go up and do it and then the second lesson, and so on.’ And so I progressed through the syllabus and by the time I left there I was teaching them about dive bombing and jinking after take-off. Everything you would get court martialled for in the RAF but of course it was the royal, it was the Fleet Air Arm and this is what they were being taught to do. And I had a thoroughly good time. I was a pilot officer. There was no room for me in the mess so I lived in digs and I bought a car. It was a, with a dickie seat. That is, it was a two seater but it had a flap you could open at the back and two people could sit inside, outside as it were but it was wonderful. I had a car of my own. I was only twenty one. I was living in digs. And I was a flying instructor in the air force. I thought I was dreaming actually. I did. Well I had a thoroughly good time of course there’s no doubt about that when I was doing it and we were then, myself and another few chaps who’d got no operational experience were posted back to the UK to go on ops. So we went back and we went to a holding unit in Bournemouth. Oh by the way on the way back, on my first trip back, twenty four hours out we were torpedoed. Fortunately, an American destroyer took most of the torpedo, it blew up with a lot of lives lost but we got damaged. We were going around in circ, the rudder was done. We had no rudder at all and other damage was done but when they had got it all fixed up we were going around in the Atlantic at that night in circles because there was no steering gear and we all thought he’s going to come back and finish us off, that U-boat but he must have run out of torpedoes. I can think of no other reason for him not sinking us. I really can’t. So we went back to Halifax, Nova Scotia and then we were put on a train which we stayed on for five days. Our food was supplied and it was just the ordinary compartment. When we all wanted to clean our teeth just the ordinary passenger way, we would go and have a pee or whatever, we would go to the lavatory or there was a wash basin so we took it in turns to clean our teeth and wash ourselves but nothing like a shower or anything like that and food was given to us and we went all the way from Halifax, Nova Scotia by train to New York. I think it took five days and there we embarked, [paused] I’ve left something out, did I say we were torpedoed?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And there we embarked on the Queen Mary and we were the only, there weren’t many of us, about a dozen I think, there was a, the OC troops was an American officer, a colonel and all the troops apart from us were Americans and so we were very much in the minority on a British ship and I can remember before we sailed the OC troops called us all together in one of the big halls that the Queen Mary had obviously and there were seats there and all of us, all the officers together and he said, ‘I want you to remember this. You’re officers and if anything happens, if we’re torpedoed you will be the last to leave.’ And the other few RAF chaps and myself looked at each other because we’d just been torpedoed [laughs] and we didn’t think much of that statement frankly but we got back safely and of course we had good food, being American and we were put through quite a rigorous, I remember when we arrived on board, a rigorous American medical. The fact that we’d got our RAF medicals didn’t mean a thing to them. We had a thorough, I don’t know whether it was army, yes American army medical I suppose and they passed us fit. I often wonder what they would have done if they hadn’t passed us fit. We were, by that time we were sailing, I mean, but anyhow they passed us fit and we got back safely to the UK. I hadn’t got, I omitted to say this before, but I hadn’t got any luggage of any sort. I just had my shaving kit and I hadn’t even got my logbooks or anything. They were all in my trunk which presumed were ruined and nobody knows what happened. They didn’t know whether they’d floated out or anything and so when I got there they asked me how many flying hours I’d got. I said well you’ll have to take my word for it but I can remember them roughly and I wrote them down in my new logbook and I went to, when we got back I went to Spitalgate, Grantham for what was called a UK, sorry -
CB: It’s ok.
LBSG: Can you switch off?
CB: Yeah.
[machine paused]
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Ok. So start again.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Or continue. Yeah. So you got back yeah. When you got back.
LBSG: When I got back we were sent eventually to RAF Spitalgate which was Grantham for an acclimatisation course which meant we had to learn to fly without any lights and without any help from anywhere. You couldn’t call up, apart from at night you had a system called darkie and if you really got lost at night then you called up darkie. Switch off.
[machine paused]
LBSG: And -
CB: No. No. No. No. So when you were lost you had to do a call sign and that said?
LBSG: Did I mention night flying or what?
CB: This is night flying isn’t it? Yes.
LBSG: Yes. Could I -
CB: So say it. Go on.
LBSG: Night flying of course was rather different in the UK because there were no lights, no aids. Scattered around the country there were, not very many, a few master beacons. They flashed red symbols, I beg your pardon, Morse code characters and if you were lucky, if you were lost at night, you might see one of these but there weren’t many in the whole country but you had to do this cross country at night in Oxfords with just a ground wireless op in the back in case you got lost. He would try to get a QDM to somewhere. And I always felt very sorry for these wireless men because they weren’t aircrew. They were ground crew and they must have hated it. Anyhow, most of us managed to do, get through this without any trouble and I was sent to, to Market, Market Harborough I think it was, Market Harborough to do a Wellington, Wellington OCU and across to and began my flying on Wellington 1Cs at Saltby which was the, which was the -
CB: The OTU.
LBSG: N. It was part of the [pause] satellite.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: Satellite for Market Harborough. Unfortunately I fell ill and I was sent to a hospital, RAF Wroughton, and didn’t get my full flying category back for some time. I lost my crew of course. They went on flying with somebody else and then when I did get a flying category I had to, I couldn’t go straight for training. The powers that be insisted I got some flying in so I was sent to an OTU to fly the Martinet which did dummy air attacks on, rather which did air, dummy air attacks on Wellingtons for the training, to train air gunners, would-be air gunners. I made a mess of that.
CB: That’s ok. That’s fine.
LBSG: To train would-be air gunners.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: In addition to that I did the drogue towing when they had live air to air firing which never made me very comfortable because they were all UT, Under Training that is and not qualified. Whilst there I met an observer who’d also been grounded and we struck up a great friendship and when the time came for us both to get our A1G1, that is the full flying category back we got it together fortunately and we asked if we could be posted together and for some, and it was granted which was quite unusual and then we were sent to, we were sent to an RAF station and pitched in amongst a lot of other air crew and there you walked around and spoke to people and believe it or not that’s how you chose your crew. True. From there we went to -
CB: So this was at the OTU.
LBSG: OTU yes. Did I say I’d been in hospital? I did, I think.
CB: You did.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And your OTU was Silverstone.
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. From there we went to OTU at Silverstone and thence to the Lanc Finishing School at Syerston. Syerston or Syston?
CB: Syerston.
LBSG: Syerston yeah. At the end of the course I was sent for by the flight commander and the whole crew said to me, ‘What the hell have you done now, Benny?’ And I said, ‘Well I can think of nothing,’ and they all laughed and said, ‘Oh yeah.’ Of course, they didn’t believe me, of course. Anyhow, I went in and I was horrified when I went in. There was the flight commander, wing commander flying and two or three other officers, squadron leaders and a wing, I think a wing commander and I thought I really am in trouble this time and I couldn’t think of anything I’d done, for a change, that merited this show of high, high class brass as it were. Anyhow, they asked me a few questions and I realised that this had, it couldn’t be to do with something I’d done wrong and then suddenly one said to me, ‘You’ve done pretty well here Goodman and your bombing results are good and your flying’s good.’ I said, ‘Thank you sir.’ He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ And I said, ‘What was that sir?’ [laughs] He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ I said, ‘I would be delighted and I know my crew would be.’ And that’s how we got posted to 617. Shall I go on?
CB: Ahum.
LBSG: When we arrived there of course we, we felt like mice there. All the famous names that had been on the squadron. One or two were still on it and I crept around really like a little mouse. I was frightened to show my face half the time because I thought I’m a sprog crew. I’ve never been on ops. What on earth are they going to think of me? And believe it or not, well not believe it or not I think you will believe it I was made so welcome by everybody that I felt pretty good in the end. Of course we had to do the squadron training. They had the SABS bomb sight which was the only, we were and still are I believe the only squadron that has ever had that sight but if you flew properly and that’s what 617 squadron was all about then you could guarantee if not a direct hit a pretty damn close one. Damn. Is that alright. I said damn. Yeah. Have to be so careful these days.
CB: Don’t worry about it.
LBSG: Yeah. We, we got through the training successfully and I did my first trip as a second dickie or co-pilot with flying officer Bob Knights and I couldn’t have been given a better chap if I’d chosen out of a hundred. To give you the feel of his value Bob was the flight lieutenant but had a DSO awarded and all those who understand that will know the real value of the man.
CB: Absolutely.
LBSG: The flight was to La Pallice. It was a French, a French port and we bombed successfully and came back and then I went to see the wing commander, Wing Commander Tait and he said ok. He’d spoken to Bob Knights obviously and Bob said ok or, ‘ was good enough’ I suppose, I don’t know and he said, ‘Ok. You and your crew will be on the next trip.’ I went back and told and everybody jumped for joy and our next trip in fact was to Brest. The U-boat pens at Brest. And of course being a sprog crew something was bound to happen wasn’t it? And halfway across the sea, on our way the wireless op said, no, I beg your pardon the flight deck filled with smoke and I said to the wireless op, ‘What’s going on at the back?’ He said, ‘Don’t worry. Don’t worry skip. The navigator and I are trying to put out the fire.’ [laughs] ‘The radios have caught fire.’ I said, ‘Oh great.’ Remember this was our first trip. I said, ‘Well the one thing we’re not going to do is turn back. This is 617 and there’s no way we’re going to turn back so you’d better get the bloody fire out.’ And I opened my DV panel. That’s the direct vision panel and tried to get the smoke out. Of course fortunately it was daytime but it was all over the, all over the flight deck. I mean, I could just about, I couldn’t see the instruments very well and but I could see out of the side panel, of course it was open and the DV was open so we managed to fly more or less on course until they put the fire out and then we continued on the op. And if anything was going to happen I suppose it would be on a first trip. After that we, apart from enemy action everything went very well, very well on the squadron. We had some, obviously brushes one way and another with the Luftwaffe and certainly with ackack and I always remember we had a wonderful bunch of ground crew and by the way I take my hat off to them. Nobody ever thinks about the ground crew but they were there day and night, winter, summer, pouring with rain, ice, snow or very hot they were always there when we came, before we left and when we came back. Always there to usher, to wave us into our dispersal and to look after us and to find out if there were any, if there were any snags and woe betide us if we’d been damaged by flak because they said, ‘What have you done to our aeroplane? Look at the holes in it.’ or whatever it was and all very good heartedly of course and they were the cream of the, they really were the cream, as far as far as I was concerned. They were the cream. Unsung heroes all of them. I don’t know anybody who got an award and they deserve some mention but as far as I know there’s never been a mention of them and it’s so unjust. Am I taking too -
CB: That’s alright. Just stop there a mo.
LBSG: Am I taking too -
[machine pause] 4019
CB: So with the ground crew you were getting on really well with them.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah
CB: And they were another part of the family really.
LBSG: Yes. Yes. The ground crew really were another part of our family and I can never understand why there was no tribute paid to them or no mention of them at any time in the huge part they played. Without them we wouldn’t be flying. And that still applies today. We did have one or two hairy trips I suppose on, on the squadron. I can remember so vividly still we deployed after the first abortive trip to sink the Tirpitz from a Russian forward base. We did one from Lossiemouth. We did two from Lossiemouth in fact but on the first one take-off was midnight from Lossiemouth and we were all lined up around the peri track, and people were, the perimeter track and people were taking off in turn and it was nearly our turn and suddenly my, I was looking around the cockpit just finally, everything had been done but you do, probably nervousness I don’t know, will keep you thinking about something. Not nervousness I don’t mean but just to keep you thinking about something and my flight engineer he used to sit by you in the dickie seat for all ops and he’d adjust the throttles or the props or anything you wanted. Synchronise them and of course he followed up on take-off and on landing. He used to, you’d call out the settings and he’d set, just minus four, minus two whatever it was and that’s how you’d come in but he suddenly nudged me, and he was a Scotsman who never used one word if half a word would do so I thought what does he want? He suddenly nudged me and he went like this and I looked up and there was the huge undercarriage of a Lancaster heading straight for us. Straight for us. It wasn’t maybe ten or twenty feet off the ground. Fortunately they cleared us and when we got back of course we found out what had happened and it was Tony Iveson who was taking off before us and he had an engine surge on take-off and so the aircraft swung off the runway and straight towards the parked aircraft which happened to be me facing him and but for the good background training and the alertness and the crew cooperation of his, he and his flight engineer there would have been a disaster but they straightened the aircraft by levelling the propellers above the throttles and then putting them up again and Tony Iveson just cleared the top of our cockpit. Just cleared it. That’s a very good start to a long trip. It was from Lossiemouth, it was pitch dark, it was midnight I think, pouring with rain and we were going low level over the North Sea all the way to the coasting-in point at Norway. What a good start. However, apart from that we all rendezvoused over the rendezvous point over the coast, Norway at daylight just as we were told to and Wing Commander Tait was leading of course and we formed up in to the gaggle and made our way to the Tirpitz and bombed it, or tried to. Unfortunately there was a lot of cloud. They’d put up a smokescreen anyhow but in addition to that there was a lot of cloud so it was an aborted trip. Thirteen and a quarter hours in total and we brought the bombs back. The Tallboys back. So the whole trip was thirteen and a quarter hours and that was the second Tirpitz effort. The third one was a repeat of the second one but the weather was clear and we bombed and I understand that Wing Commander Tait bombed first. His bomb made a direct hit on the Tirpitz.
CB: What could you see from that height?
LBSG: I didn’t see very much because we were following a Target Direction Indicator on the [combing of the] cockpit. It was the bomb aimer who was directing. He didn’t say left or right. He was adjusting his bomb sight and as he did so the target direction indicator came up and one degree looked about that big so he could, he could really show a one degree turn and you’d try it looked so big you would try to do it but you did do it, you’d try and that’s how we we kept within five nautical miles, five miles of our airspeed fifty feet in height and of course with the TDI we had to keep absolutely directly on track and that really I was only part of the team, the pilot. There was the navigator who had to make sure that the bomb aimer had the correct winds and the right temperature and that everything was set and he had the job of making sure when the bomb was to go. The navigator was very important with all the information he had and I was just sitting there like an auto pilot following this TD, Target Direction Indicator. TDI. So really I was the least important of them all. As long as I flew the right course at the right height and the right speed the others were doing the job and there it was, that’s how it was with all 617 squadron ops. With the SABS we did practice for a low level trip but that was a very, we practiced low level at night, five hundred or a thousand feet, on resin lights. They were the very very dim lights on the rear of the, on the, how do we describe it?
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re just talking about lights.
LBSG: Yes. We did. Can I repeat?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: We practised a gaggle at night and had to, it was called a formation at night but it was very difficult to fly. We did it on the resin lights which were on the wing root of the aircraft you were trying to formate on. It was very difficult at night with a lot of aeroplanes but we managed to do it. It was all over Lincolnshire and everybody got back safely but it was deemed too dangerous to do again.
CB: In the night.
LBSG: Yes at night. Or operationally at all. I think, I think the feeling was we might have gone at night. The whole thing at night.
CB: I see. Right.
LBSG: But there you are. We never did it and I think everybody was thankful including, I believe, the squadron commander. Of course, it was really dicey. They’re a big aeroplane to throw around at night. A Lancaster. We just tried to formate but not too closely on the resin lights which shone so dimly. But there it is.
CB: You didn’t collide. Nobody had a collision.
LBSG: No. No sir.
CB: No. Ok. So in essence the Tirpitz raids were daylight because it wasn’t practical to do it at night.
LBSG: Well night day. We took off at night.
CB: Yes. But you arrived in daylight.
LBSG: Pardon me. We coasted in about daylight. Yeah. Excuse me.
CB: Ok. So coasting in means crossing the coast.
LBSG: Crossing the coast. Yes. And that was our rendezvous point. I think I said that.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I hope. If I made any mistakes please tell me.
CB: That’s alright. Yeah.
LBSG: I don’t know, where were we? Do I need to go -
CB: So this was on the second raid.
LBSG: I finished with that.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And the third raid sank it.
CB: Yes the third raid sank it.
LBSG: Yeah. It was a repeat of the second. There’s no point going through it all again.
CB: No. Ok.
LBSG: Right. Now, what else?
CB: So after that what did you do?
LBSG: I’ll have to get my logbook out to find out.
CB: Ok. But in principal after you’d done the Tirpitz there was nothing else to do there.
LBSG: No.
CB: But you were a precision bombing squadron so -
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
CB: What were you focusing on mainly then?
LBSG: Well we always had a particular target rather than area bombing but there weren’t many terribly specialised targets like the dams or the Tirpitz but we did what we were told to do and, I hope, successfully. We did have a shot at the Mohne, and Eder or Sorpe.
CB: Sorpe.
LBSG: Sorpe dams but with no result. We had Tallboys and they were absolutely not fit for the job. It was just a shot in the dark I think but we never did any damage. Or very appreciable damage.
CB: It was too soft.
LBSG: Yes, I imagine. Yes.
CB: Because it was an earth dam.
LBSG: It wasn’t the right bomb and it was built, I think the dam, the Mohne and the Sorpe were built in different ways, I think. I don’t know.
CB: Well the Sorpe’s an earthwork dam.
LBSG: Yes. Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
CB: So it absorbs -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The impact.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Explosion.
LBSG: I don’t know. I can tell you about -
CB: So did you go on to U-boat target pens?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So was that immediately after that?
LBSG: I’d better get my –
CB: Well we’ll stop for a mo anyway shall we?
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I think October the 29th
CB: So we’re talking about the Tirpitz now.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And the date of your, the third attempt to get it.
LBSG: Second. Second attempt.
CB: Second attempt.
LBSG: I was in hospital for the third one.
CB: Ok. So that was what date?
LBSG: 29th of October 1944.
CB: Right. Ok.
LBSG: 29th. 30th because -
CB: Yeah. Overnight. Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t we were talking about something else weren’t we?
CB: No. No but it’s just to put that into context.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: Because it can go back.
LBSG: What do you want me to say?
CB: Yes. And so on the first raid you did what was the date of that? On the Tirpitz sortie.
LBSG: Yes. The first raid that I carried out -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Was, on the Tirpitz was on October the 29th
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: 1944.
CB: Right. And then the next one. The second one you did.
LBSG: I was in hospital so I didn’t go.
CB: You didn’t do the next one.
LBSG: I didn’t do the next one.
CB: No.
LBSG: Unfortunately.
CB: Right ok. So after the Tirpitz.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Then what did you do?
LBSG: Well it’s what -
CB: What sorties did you, were they, because you were precision bombing all the time -
LBSG: Yes. Well we went, after the Tirpitz we went after various dams. The earth dam.
CB: Oh yeah.
LBSG: At Heimbach.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then the E&R boat pens at Ijmuiden in Holland and then -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was quite a long night trip in December 1944 to Perlitz which is Stettin.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: To destroy the synthetic oil plant there.
CB: Right.
LBSG: To deny the Germans fuel for their aircraft and tanks and anything else.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a long trip. It was, it took twelve hours and fifty and thirty five minutes.
CB: There and back.
LBSG: There and back.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. Sorry. Erase that.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: That was, it took nine hours and twenty five minutes at night.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was a night trip.
CB: Ok. And on the long night trips what did you do when you got hungry? Did you take food with you?
LBSG: Well we were supplied with food and coffee but -
CB: What would that be?
LBSG: But I can never remember eating anything.
CB: Oh really.
LBSG: I may have drunk some coffee. I think on the way back from the Tirpitz I did but I don’t think I ate anything at the time because we had, we had something to eat obviously before we left but there was nobody to fly the aircraft if I was going to sit there drinking coffee and having a sandwich. Of course there was one pilot and of course no autopilot.
CB: No.
LBSG: So if I decided to let go of the controls it wouldn’t be a very good idea. There was nobody else to fly it.
CB: And so after -
LBSG: People did of course. They could, you could sup coffee and you could eat a sandwich but I never really, I had coffee I think but never, never took, never had a sandwich I don’t think.
CB: And what height were you normally flying?
LBSG: I can tell, it varied. Up to eighteen thousand feet. We flew anything between twelve or fourteen and eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Are we talking about a mixture of free flowing bombs or only Tallboys?
LBSG: I’m talking about only Tallboys.
CB: Right. Ok. So in that case you needed to be a certain height for them -
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. We did. Yes.
CB: To reach the speed that was needed didn’t you?
LBSG: And we needed to be, have I mentioned it, needed the correct air speed to be flown.
CB: No. So what, so tell us the envelope you were operating.
LBSG: Well I -
CB: So the airspeed -
LBSG: I’m fairly sure, without knowing, because we were just given the bombing heights.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: That we never, we certainly never bombed less than sixteen to eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. And -
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: And what airspeed would you be going, roughly?
LBSG: A hundred and twenty five I suppose. I don’t –
CB: A bit more than that.
LBSG: What with the bomb doors open?
CB: Right. That’s what I’m asking. Yeah. So you approach, what sort of speed would you cruise first of all? On the way out say. Would you -
LBSG: I don’t know.
CB: Set it at a hundred and eighty or -
LBSG: No. Pardon me. A hundred and eighty miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Or not?
LBSG: I just cannot remember. I’m sorry.
CB: It doesn’t matter. The reason I’m asking the question -
LBSG: That’s rather fast by the sound of it but it wasn’t –
CB: I’m just getting a feel for -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: What happens in terms of going out there?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And then do you change speed when you’re, because you’re doing such precision bombing.
LBSG: Yes, you, well -
CB: Do you have a different speed that is lower, faster or what?
LBSG: Well when the bomb doors are open of course it slows the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But you do have to settle down on a speed and I can’t remember it.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And we were supposed to be within fifty feet of height and five miles an hour airspeed.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And we all kept to that.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Without no doubt.
CB: So we’re talking about there’s a very -
LBSG: Precision bomb. Precision.
CB: Yes precision is very specific -
LBSG: Absolutely.
CB: On all these things.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: That are worked out in advance are they?
LBSG: Yes. [pause] No. Sorry they’re not worked out in advance. You have to fly within five miles an hour and of course it wasn’t nautical miles then it was miles per hour.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Of airspeed and within fifty feet of height and the bomb aimer would be given a set of settings by the navigator so that he corrected for temperature and height and wind and so on as much as the navigator could do it all. Obviously -
CB: Right. Yeah.
VT: So you were just told what to -
LBSG: Yes I -
VT: The bomb aimer was telling you wasn’t he?
LBSG: I could have been an auto pilot really.
VT: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And the important people were the bomb aimer and the navigator really.
CB: Yeah but you were actually translating those instructions into a very -
LBSG: Yes I was but yeah.
CB: Specific held, tightly held speed and height.
LBSG: Oh you had to yes.
CB: So there was a skill in that that was greater than normal bombing.
LBSG: Yes but that’s why you were on 617 squadron.
CB: Exactly.
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh. Ok.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Yeah. That’s why we were on 617 squadron. All of us.
CB: Yeah. Yeah
LBSG: Once we passed the test if you like.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And of course if you weren’t up to scratch although I didn’t meet anybody who wasn’t but, but you could get kicked off and that would have been terrible for anybody.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: I mean you worked hard to stay, to stay on the squadron.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: There’s no doubt. Nobody wanted to leave it.
CB: No.
LBSG: Nobody.
CB: So how much by this time how much is daylight and how much is at night?
LBSG: At this time a lot more was in daylight although we trained for night bombing and we did, as I say, quite long trips. Nine hours and twenty five minutes to Stettin, Berlitz or, as an example. That’s quite a long trip of mine.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. I don’t know the long –
CB: So what else have you got on your logbook there?
LBSG: Well, of interest on January the 12th 1945. Are we recording?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: We were briefed for a daylight on Bergen. The port.
CB: In Norway.
LBSG: Bergen in Norway yes. The port. And we had an escort of fighters but they had gone down, we were quite high on this occasion, we were, well we were always high, but, and they’d gone down to try and silence the ackack guns. There were an awful lot of them around the port and as they did so a m I think they were outside of a squadron of Focke Wulf 190s which was the latest or a mixture of that and the Messerschmitt but certainly there were a lot of fighters over the target and that was when Tony Iveson got shot up badly and he got a DFC for getting everything home. Although three of his crew baled out they weren’t, there was no communication, they thought, they’d been told to stand by and when they heard nothing else they thought that the thing had been shot up so badly so three of them baled out but you couldn’t blame them but two or three of them remained with Tony and they got the aircraft back. They used ropes to tie things up and it was an extraordinary feat and Tony Iveson put it down, I think it was certainly it was in the Shetlands or around there, one of the islands and he got an immediate DFC and certainly earned it. Certainly earned it. It’s a pity that his flight engineer who did so much towards helping Tony fly it because he couldn’t move the rudders by himself for example, he had to have an oppy sitting down there moving the rudders. The flight engineer. But anyhow there it was. I’m not criticising anybody I mean -
CB: No.
LBSG: It’s as they saw it. Not the crew. That’s how the command saw it.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And all the rest of it. But that was a dicey trip, Bergen. We were lucky to get away. I think we had three shot down altogether.
CB: Did you?
LBSG: Two or three yeah. Yes. Of course our fighters, they must have been Mustangs because Spitfires could never have made it to Bergen in Norway. They must have been Mustangs. And they went away and shot, went down and shot away the ackack and lo and behold these fighters came and really tried to make mincemeat of us. They did. Well obviously they did. We were lucky.
CB: It didn’t sound a very good tactic did it? You should have, they should have left some fighters up top.
LBSG: Well yeah.
CB: Anyway -
LBSG: Yes. I mean we weren’t told, we weren’t told about the fighter -
CB: No.
LBSG: What the fighter tactics were.
CB: After Bergen where did you go?
LBSG: Oh all over the place. Went to [?]
CB: Is that a port?
LBSG: That was the Midget U-boat pens.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: They were a great menace. And we did the Bielefeld Viaduct.
CB: Oh yes.
VT: Oh right.
LBSG: And it was the Beilefeld, yes it was the Bielefeld.
CB: We talked about Tallboys but did you also do Grand Slam?
LBSG: Yes, I, yes.
CB: Because that was Bielefield wasn’t it?
LBSG: I did. I dropped a Grand Slam. I was on, I think the second or third on the squadron. Not many were dropped altogether. Only forty one were made and certainly not that amount were dropped I don’t think.
CB: No.
LBSG: But anyhow I dropped a Grand Slam on the Arnsberg Viaduct in March 1945. Now, it was important for the winning of the war that all lines of communication were severed so our targets were viaducts, railway bridges which they are, ordinary bridges, railway lines and so on because that stopped them bringing up troops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And food and ammunition and all the rest of it. So lines of communication were certainly the target.
CB: So how did that do on that viaduct?
LBSG: Well yes. It -
CB: Brought it down.
LBSG: Yes it brought, but then look what they did with the dams. They had that up and working again in two or three weeks. They were masters at repairing things quickly.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then we went back and bombed it again but nevertheless they -
CB: It was disruptive.
LBSG: They were a pretty tough adversary. They were. And -
CB: Sure.
LBSG: Able to, they weren’t, they were not stolid. They were versatile in their thinking. If they needed something then that would be done in the order it was needed.
CB: So just for the background of people listening to this -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The Grand Slam is a twenty two thousand pound bomb.
LBSG: That’s right.
CB: What modification was there made to the aircraft and did the crew amount change when you did that?
LBSG: Yes. It did. Well it changed when we went to the Tirpitz. We only had five people I think. If you could pass me what I’ve written I could tell you.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: I know it but it would be much easier.
CB: Yeah. But just quickly on the, you had to take, did you lose -
LBSG: Be careful with that.
CB: The mid upper gunner when you were doing -
LBSG: No. No. I’ll have that back. Doing what?
CB: When you took a Grand Slam which member of the crew -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you not take?
LBSG: The Grand Slam. One, two, three. No, we took, we took the, we took the gunners. We didn’t take the wireless op.
CB: Right.
LBSG: For some reason. We took the gunners and we, yes because they’re necessary in daylight but we did anyhow but sometimes we took even fewer. On the Tirpitz we took [pause] sorry about this.
CB: It’s ok. We’re just looking in the -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Logbook.
LBSG: Yeah. The Tirpitz. It was a full crew. No. I’m talking nonsense sorry. On the Tirpitz. Where am I? [pause]. Nothing. The Tirpitz. One, two, three there were five crew and not seven.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you would have, we’re talking about Tallboys.
LBSG: Five not including me sorry.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: We left-
CB: So six. Yeah.
LBSG: We left behind the rear gunner. Yeah. Unless, we took one gunner. He may have filled the rear gunner’s position but I can tell you.
CB: Well the wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: The wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Oh we took him.
CB: Wireless and gunner weren’t they?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Originally.
LBSG: We took the wireless op because he was, not that it helped much but he was getting winds which weren’t as good as we were getting. I relied, I had a wonderful navigator and I took his word on anything rather than having command winds sent to us by -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Some Mosquito somewhere.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: I was looking for something here. You asked me to check.
CB: Ok. We’re just going to -
LBSG: And I can’t remember it.
CB: Well, we’ll come back to that.
LBSG: Yeah.
VT: Is your logbook as alive today as it was when you wrote it?
LBSG: What?
VT: Your logbook.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Is it as alive to you today?
LBSG: Yes as I wrote it and when we came back from a trip.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yeah. It’s a bit fragile but you can have a look at it if you want to.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The interesting thing I think about the later times is what sort of targets you were talking about and what was the, the Grand Slam was used for a particular reason for a particular target.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So what was that?
LBSG: Well I dropped mine on the viaduct.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a particular target but I suppose one Grand Slam certainly did make a mess. There’s no doubt about the targets but I can’t tell you the thinking behind it I’m afraid. I was a squadron pilot.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I had no, I obeyed orders and took what I was told to take. Nobody discussed the theory of it with me or -
CB: Right. No. Quite.
LBSG: The tactics.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Or anything else.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The squadron commander knew but I didn’t.
CB: But the Tallboy was a big bomb in itself of twelve thousand pounds.
LBSG: That was a twelve thousand pound bomb. Yes.
CB: And had huge penetration as well.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And so was and of course the twenty two thousand pound was a huge one. There were only, I think, forty one made and I believe I was certainly the third or fourth on the squadron to drop one.
CB: Right. Well they worked.
LBSG: We dropped them. Hmmn?
CB: Yeah. They worked.
LBSG: Yeah. But a massive thing. And we did have an undercarriage, different undercarriage. I think we had -
CB: To get a greater height.
LBSG: We had, I think it was a Lincoln. I just, that’s what I wanted this for. Have a look.
CB: You were –
LBSG: Oh the Grand Slam. Yes. Just a sec. Yes, if you, are you interested?
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Well for the Grand Slam the Lincoln undercarriage was fitted rather than our own. They’d allowed for the increased weight.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The mid upper and front turret were removed.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: That’s the gunners or one gunner at least and the wireless operator’s equipment and the wireless operator himself so we had a pretty skeleton crew when we -
CB: Simply because the bomb was so heavy.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: They needed to save -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Weight.
LBSG: Yes. The other thing that came out was the armour plating -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And that -
CB: Behind you -
LBSG: And the pilot’s union didn’t like that because we had armour plating behind us. However, it was all taken out and the ammunition load was reduced so we couldn’t, yeah, there we are and it was all to save weight. The bomb doors were removed and they were replaced with fairings and a chain link strop with an electromechanical mechanism release was fitted to hold the Grand Slam in place.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And the electric, electromechanical release worked very well. You could hear it. I know it sounds strange but you actually heard it go, in the air, eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. So you are at eighteen thousand and you lose that, you drop it.
LBSG: Oh well –
CB: What happens to the aeroplane at that time?
LBSG: I’ll tell you what happened to the aeroplane. Although I was prepared for something the aeroplane just lifted up. That’s right. It lifted up.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Like a lift. And my flight engineer who was sitting next to me said he heard a loud bang but I didn’t hear that. I think I was occupied wondering what was going to happen to the aeroplane. There was no -
CB: When you -
LBSG: The great thing about the war was these days you’d be on a course for everything but they just did all these modifications and put all these things on and nobody said even about the take-off run because nobody knew so it was all down to us but then we were on 617 squadron and supposed, we were all there because we would be, we had to be able to cope with these things.
CB: So you were stationed where?
LBSG: At Woodhall Spa.
CB: And when you flew with the Grand Slam -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you use the standard runway?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the difference in the run needed for Grand Slam compared with using a Tallboy?
LBSG: There wasn’t too much difference. It was a longer run, take off run and it was a bit slower on the climb and I think the flight engineer said he saw the wings bend a bit more than they usually do but I don’t know but it was certainly a longer take off run obviously and it was much slower on, well much, it was slower on the climb but once you got going it was, the Lancaster was an absolutely superb aircraft. You could do anything with it. Is this being recorded?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So what other, so how many, how many raids are we, so operations so far?
LBSG: Oh well. Tirpitz was, I mentioned, I mentioned Bergen haven’t I? That was –
CB: Yes. Then the viaduct.
LBSG: And the viaduct. Yes and the synthetic oil plant I mentioned.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: But I ought to mention -
CB: Did you do -
LBSG: If I can find it in the right place where we were escorted by an ME262 fighter.
CB: Oh were you?
LBSG: Which really put a bit of a jerk into us as you can imagine. I’m just trying to -
CB: Was he being aggressive or just curious?
LBSG: Well I’ll tell you about it. I’ll just find out when it was.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And I will tell you. [pause] Oh dear. Sorry. Do you mind the pause?
CB: No. I’ll pause it.
[machine pause]
CB: So we’re talking about the 262.
LBSG: Yes. We were briefed for a daylight raid on the docks and installations at Hamburg. The port of Hamburg and we carried out the bombing run and, [pause] let me find the right one.
CB: This is on Hamburg.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Yes
LBSG: I’m looking for the one with the 262.
CB: Ah. Well we’ll just pause it again.
LBSG: Yeah.
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re restarting now.
LBSG: Yes. I hope this is the one. On the 9th of April we were briefed for a daylight on the docks and installations at Hamburg and we did drop our Tallboy. There was a hang up and unfortunately it didn’t hit the target but went into the port area and I think probably some of the housing which we could do nothing about and on that occasion there were jet aircraft sent up to intercept us and we were fortunate we didn’t get intercepted. However, on the way back I was horrified when my, when my flight engineer who was always sitting next to me in the dickie seat nudged me in the ribs and went like this and I looked out and it all looked normal so I shrugged my shoulders and he nudged me harder and went like that to indicate look outside and I looked outside and I was absolutely horrified to see a Messerschmitt 262 in formation with us if you please. Which, to say the least, is a bit unusual. Now, he had cannon that could open fire three or four hundred yards before our tiny 303s even hit the synchronisation point and so we were, I mean we were helpless and he, he was there. He didn’t, there was no friendly wave and we stared at each other and my flight engineer looked at him as well and suddenly he disappeared as quickly as he’d come.
CB: So he was out of ammo.
LBSG: Well hang on.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: When we got back we mentioned it and Tony Langston who was a navigator in the aircraft behind us, he said, ‘Oh it was you was it?’ And I said, ‘Yeah. What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, we’d been attacked by the 262 and he opened fire on us and he got nowhere near us and he left us,’ and he said, ‘So it must have been you he formated on to have a look.’ Of course I was all ready to do the 5 group corkscrew and I don’t know what to get away from him but he just sat there and he wasn't, he couldn’t possibly fire at me while he was in good formation with me and it wasn’t much chance of a mid-upper shooting him down. I mean, I don’t think we had a mid-upper then. Just a sec, I think we only had the rear gunner. Can you -
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Wait?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Sorry.
[machine pause]
LBSG: We shoot at him.
CB: Right so -
LBSG: Sorry.
CB: Just repeat that. So you didn’t, on this particular time when the 262 came along beside you there was no mid upper turret operating.
LBSG: No. We had, there was no way we could shoot at him. We had one gunner and we’d have shot at ourselves I think if we’d tried. He probably could see that. Well he just sat there and then disappeared.
CB: How long was that for?
LBSG: To me it was about five hours but I think it was about thirty, about a minute, yes. Well I was just waiting for him to start an attack and I was getting all ready to do a 5 group corkscrew and all the other things but I don’t think we’d have stood much chance against him frankly. Anyhow, when we landed you were debriefed by the intelligence officer and I told him this and Tony Langston happened to hear me talking about it. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He went to you did he?’ I said, ‘Well yes.’ Apparently, he’d attacked Tony Langston’s aircraft. I think it was flown by Flying Officer Joplin, Arthur Joplin and although he’d shot at them he didn’t shoot the aeroplane down which was extraordinary and I only, can only assume he must have been a very young -
VT: Rookie.
LBSG: New pilot who’d gone through a crash course towards the end of the war and really were just firing the guns and of course he didn’t do any damage.
VT: This was quite late on then was it?
LBSG: Yes. I’ve just given you the date.
VT: Yeah.
CB: 9th of April.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah. And well thank goodness he didn’t do it.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: I mean, he could have shot us both out of the sky without any trouble.
CB: Thirty millimetre cannon. Yeah.
VT: I suppose given the situation and what was the potential in the situation that you didn’t really have any thoughts about the 262 at that moment.
LBSG: Well -
VT: About its –
LBSG: What I was thinking of, ‘What shall I do?’ Because he was there and while he was on the starboard wing he couldn’t do any damage.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: But if he peeled off and we could see he was going to attack I would have to try and do a 5 group corkscrew -
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Which we were told to do. I don’t know what the success rate is.
CB: Ok. Just on that topic.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Could you just describe what was the 5 group corkscrew?
LBSG: Yes. Certainly.
CB: How it worked. So –
LBSG: Well -
CB: You instigate it.
LBSG: The 5 group corkscrew was -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: If you were attacked by an enemy aircraft you did something called a 5 group corkscrew. And that was from where you were you’d dive, rolling to the right and then after a few hundred feet you’d dive, continue to dive but roll to the left and then you would climb rolling to the right and you continue climbing and roll to the left. Now that’s a 5 group corkscrew and as you did, from the time you commenced the corkscrew you told the rear gunner what you were doing and you knew what deflection, this is theory, he knew what deflection he should be allowing for on his machine guns. So that was our defence and I don’t, I don’t know, fortunately I don’t know if it would ever work. Other people would have found out but they’d probably been shot down. You’ve got an agile twin jet fighter after you and you’ve got a big four engine.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Petrol, I mean fuel, you know.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t jet we were the old fashioned engine.
CB: Piston. Yeah.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: Piston.
LBSG: Piston engine. Yeah. Wonderful aeroplane. Wonderful engines. I’ve no criticism there but they were a step, a hundred steps ahead of us with jet engines but we got away with it.
VT: What did you know at that time about the 262?
LBSG: Very little.
VT: Very little. Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Very little. Hmmn?
VT: Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Not in -
VT: No.
LBSG: Not in anger. No.
VT: No.
LBSG: We were attacked by jets over Hamburg and I suppose there must have been 262s amongst them but we were on the bombing run and you –
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: You just, you just had to stay on the bombing. There was no, excuse at all. You wouldn’t last five minutes on the squadron if you didn’t.
CB: We’ve covered a lot of stuff you’ve done.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: So when did you finish the tour?
LBSG: I can tell you that. Well I waited until the end of the war. I’d already finished the tour. Thirty operations.
CB: When did that happen?
LBSG: Well it was right at the end of the war I think and I opted to stay, to stay on the squadron. Hang on a second please.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I did my last operation on the 25th of April 1945 and that was against Berchtesgaden. The Eagle’s Nest.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And that was my, but by that time I’d done thirty trips. That was a tour of, tour of ops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But I was staying on. I didn’t want to leave the squadron.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I didn’t know the war was going to end.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: So I‘d opted to stay on the squadron.
CB: Oh right. Which would have been another thirty if the war had continued.
LBSG: Oh no I mean, the war had, the next month, in May the war stopped.
CB: No. No. If the war had continued you would have done -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Thirty. Would you? By signing on for that?
LBSG: Well yes. Yes but on 617 squadron you weren’t time expired after thirty ops.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: On main force you were automatically but you went on on thirty, squadron, to any number of ops. There was no limit on thirty. No limit to thirty. I mean -
CB: No.
VT: So you -
LBSG: On the squadron. We could go on as long as the CO would put up with us and -
VT: So you would have gone on for leave.
LBSG: I would –
VT: And then -
LBSG: Well no I would have gone on if the war hadn’t finished. I would have gone on.
VT: Yes. Yes. So you would have had leave after that thirty.
LBSG: No. I wouldn’t because it was 617. Normally -
VT: You would have just continued on ops.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Normally, on main force, after thirty ops you had, you were rested. You automatically, you were -
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Posted and you became an instructor on something or other.
CB: Right. Ok so how much longer did you continue with 617?
LBSG: Good question that. I will tell you. I should have said. May the 10th ’45.
CB: Right. Two days after the end of the war.
LBSG: Yeah because they posted and I went, well yes I went into what would have, was going to be Transport Command. It wasn’t then of course and I think with another chap we flew the first two sorties that Transport Command ever did I think. What was the beginning. Hang on a sec. I’ll -
CB: So you were posted somewhere quite different then?
LBSG: Oh yeah. Well I was posted to Leconfield.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And then, I mean, oh at Leconfield it was awfully, we had nothing to do at all and so I went to the, there was a Halifax squadron there and I went to the CO of the squadron and asked him if I could be checked out on a Halifax because we were doing nothing all day and my crew, well one or two of the members of the crew I had left came with me and he said yeah and he, you know checked me out on a Halifax and I said, ‘Can I go on flying?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, if you want to,’ and before I knew it I was flying bigwigs around Germany showing them all the -
CB: Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah the Cooks tour of Germany. And it suited me, I was doing some flying. So that’s how I came to fly Halifaxes. And of course I’d flown Stirlings at OT, heavy conversion bombing unit and then when the war ended, I’ll see here flew, yes I did a bit of Fairey flying. Where was this? Stirling. Here we are I think. Stirling flying. Yes. I was posted to, oh dear, another I was posted to, what was I doing?
CB: After Leconfield.
LBSG: Oh 31. 51 squadron I think. Yeah. 51 squadron.
CB: Oh right. At Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: They were at Waddington by then.
LBSG: I’m not sure. I don’t know if they were.
CB: They were Skelly oh.
LBSG: This is what I was talking about. September ‘45.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And August.
CB: Otherwise Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: August ’45.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And I did the, what did we do? We did some, yes another chap and myself, called Saunders I think, we were the first to, what was the beginning of Transport Command. We, we could fly Stirlings so we went, we did a sort of proving flight out to Castel Benito if I remember correctly. Yes. And then did some, I don’t know, must have taken freight or something I don’t know. Anyhow, we went, I did quite a bit of flying on the way out to [Shima?] Maripur in Stirlings.
CB: So 51 squadron was on Stirlings was it?
LBSG: Well it must have been.
CB: Was this 51?
LBSG: Yeah. 51, it must have been. Yeah. And we did all sorts of things on Stirlings. Yes, we, I did quite a few hours afterwards on Stirlings. I’ve just realised that and we carried, believe it or not, twenty four passengers. That was all in the Stirling. Of course there was nowhere to put them except in the middle we were all, have you seen the inside of a Stirling? It’s like a submarine. You’ve got these big wheels. If the engineer wanted to change the fuel tanks he had to go halfway down the fuselage with these massive wheels and well it was just like a submarine really. They built them as submarines. And when you, when you took off, as part of the engineer’s duty as soon as you retracted the undercarriage which was like a bailey bridge, they were really, he had to go and check, there was a meter which showed you the amount of revs and each undercarriage and the twin tail wheel, twin tail wheel they had to be within five revolutions of the set figure given when they were retracted [coughs], excuse me, and if they weren’t then you were supposed to go back and land. What you did was you put it down and brought it up again in the hope, because the last thing you wanted to do you’d gone through all the trouble of getting airborne in a Stirling and then to find the undercarriage rev counter had stopped working so we never never had a boomerang for that. Never. But the tail wheel also had a, but it was extraordinary you had to go and check the rev counters to make sure. It was like a bailey bridge going up and down really. Extraordinary. The Stirling was a nice aeroplane to fly.
CB: Was it?
LBSG: It was and I did quite a bit of flying on it out to India and back with passengers. Shaibah. Lida. Cairo.
CB: This was –
LBSG: Went to Cairo.
VT: when you mention the Cooks tour. I’m just thinking for the tape should you not explain something about that? And also -
CB: Ok so -
VT: Who were the bigwigs.
CB: So what people were these bigwigs that you took on the Cooks tours?
LBSG: Well I think they were generals and admirals and air marshals and other probably highly placed civil servants and of course to see anything they had to stand behind you or look out of what windows there were. After all it was a Halifax. It was a bomber not a sightseeing aeroplane [laughs].
CB: No.
LBSG: But they didn’t mind. They stood there and of course there were all these devastated cities.
CB: So what height were you?
LBSG: It was a horror to see.
CB: Yes. What height were you flying?
LBSG: Oh pretty low for them to see. Well high enough for them to have an overall view but not up, not very high.
CB: No. What sort of height are we talking about?
LBSG: Oh a few thousand feet I think.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Yeah. We might come down lower to show them a specific thing but it was really, when I think about it horrifying. These huge cities. But it was great going to Cologne because everything was ruined except the cathedral and that was, and I am sure that was by sheer luck. I am sure. Because we were never briefed don’t hit the cathedral and at night I mean [ ?] I think it was sheer luck but anyhow it reflected greatly on the RAFs reputation and we’ve kept it that way. I’m sure you can’t blame, oh.
CB: Yes. That’s right.
LBSG: Oh no. Please.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Oh no.
CB: We can wipe it.
LBSG: Oh yeah that little bit please.
CB: Right, so -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So we were talking about Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: It’s about people who were -
LBSG: Bigwigs.
CB: Being shown -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The effect of -
LBSG: Yes. Of the bombing.
CB: Of the bombing.
LBSG: On Germany.
CB: Strategy yeah. So what do you want me to say then?
LBSG: Yeah that’s just to explain. You’ve just said it yeah.
CB: The Cooks tour in the Halifax was for bigwigs and top ranking officers to show them how accurate the bombing had been and how right the RAF strategy was.
CB: Ok. That’s fine. Good.
VT: Wonderful.
CB: So just tell us about the crew then. So you had the same crew all the time did you?
LBSG: Yes. I had the same crew throughout -
CB: On the 617.
LBSG: My operational flying. I think I explained that we picked each other at random but it always seemed to work out. Very rarely did it, did it not work out and I had a splendid crew and they supported me all the way through.
CB: What mixture of nationalities were they?
LBSG: Well at that time they were all British but one was a Welshman. I suppose he didn’t, wouldn’t like me to call him, he’d like me to call him Welsh now but he was he was a rear gunner. The rest, yes, were all British. Were all English. But in those days they were all British.
CB: And the crew themselves at work, rest and play was it?
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you did everything together.
LBSG: Not everything but we were pretty well bonded together.
CB: So what was the rank range? So you were by then -
LBSG: Flight lieutenant.
CB: What rank? Right.
LBSG: And -
CB: Any other officers -
LBSG: I had -
CB: In the crew?
LBSG: I think I had a flight, I think Tony Hayward, the bomb aimer, I’m not sure if he’d been promoted to flight lieutenant by then. The navigator was a flying officer. Tony Hayward was either a flying officer or flight lieutenant and the rest of the crew were sergeants or flight sergeants and became warrant officers as well.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Thank you. We’re going to stop there and -
LBSG: I’m glad to hear that.
CB: Pick up things later. Isn’t that amazing?
VT: Oh yeah. Terrific. Terrific.
LBSG: What?
CB: So that was really good Benny.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: That’s really good.
LBSG: You’re being nice to me there.
VT: No. No. No. No. No.
CB: I’m trying to be because I want to be able to come back. [laughs]
LBSG: Yeah. Certainly. Well I mean -
CB: Oh no. This is really good. I’m serious. Now the point here really is that we are going to read that. We’re rushing off because we’ve laboured you a lot but also -
LBSG: Oh that’s alright.
CB: We need to get back.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And I’m coming down here again shortly ‘cause I want to go to Crowthorne and a ninety six year old lady whose husband is suffering from dementia -
LBSG: Oh dear.
CB: The last eight years and is now in a home but she was on intelligence at -
LBSG: Was she at -
CB: At Driffield.
LBSG: Oh Driffield, not on, was it -
CB: And, and later, later at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And she spent three and a half years at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: But she wasn’t at the, where am I?
VT: Bletchley?
LBSG: Hmmn?
VT: Bletchley.
LBSG: Bletchley Park.
CB: No. No. No. No. She was a WAAF in the -
LBSG: Well there were lots of WAAFs there.
CB: Administration and cook.
LBSG: Yeah. She was a WAAF intelligence officer.
CB: Yeah. Not officer. Just -
LBSG: No WAAF on, yeah.
CB: She was asked -
LBSG: Well she’d have something to say. Things to tell you.
CB: They wanted to commission her twice but she refused because she wanted to be where the -
LBSG: Her mates.
CB: Where the action was. Yes. So thank you very much indeed.
LBSG: Well I’ll probably be -
CB: And –
LBSG: Talking, bored you to death.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-07
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS160407
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
Germany
Description
An account of the resource
Benny Goodman grew up in London and hoped to become a pilot. He volunteered for the Air Force and was originally posted to RAF Abingdon as a ground gunner before beginning his flying training. After qualifying as a pilot in Canada, he became an instructor to Navy pilots. He survived his ship being torpedoed before he finally joined the Queen Mary in New York and returned to England. He flew operations with 617 Squadron and discusses a fire in the cockpit of his Lancaster, narrowly missing and mid-air collision and flying alongside a Me 262.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:31:12 audio recording
51 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Grand Slam
Halifax
Harvard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Magister
Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
perimeter track
pilot
RAF Abingdon
RAF Leconfield
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
Stirling
submarine
Tallboy
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8745/PGoodmanLS1501.1.jpg
4d6c119b0afafd239cd1395cc73a9296
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8745/AGoodmanLS150808.2.mp3
5d1eebc2760604de275260a0b99591f6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Laurence Benny Goodman. The interview is taking place at Mr Goodman’s home in Bracknell on the 8th of August 2015. This particular interview focusses on Mr Goodman’s time as a pilot in 617 squadron during the latter stages of World War 2.
LBSG: The Grand Slam bomb was designed by Sir Barnes Wallis and was twenty one feet long and weighed twenty two thousand pounds. It was the largest bomb ever produced in the war. We were the only squadron to carry it. On the Arnsberg Viaduct raid which was a daylight raid I had a twenty two thousand pound bomb on board and we made our usual bombing run but once the bomb was released I felt the aircraft lift perceptibly. I imagine a hundred, a hundred or two hundred feet and certainly the flight engineer heard the, heard the clinking of the release chains. The bomb was so heavy that it required those chains. To carry the twenty two thousand pound bomb of course the Lancaster had to be modified. We had to have a strengthened undercarriage. The bomb doors were certainly taken away and we had a different attachment for the bomb. The twenty two thousand pound bomb. It was, on take-off it was a little longer run but once we did take off the climb was quite steady and once to height we cruised the normal way. The importance of the target fitted in with the general strategy of the time to cut all German lines of communication we could so they couldn’t bring up troops, ammunition, food and so on and certainly the Arnsberg Viaduct was one of the important viaducts that had to be destroyed. On this occasion when we released the bomb we certainly didn’t have to say, ‘bomb gone,’ because as it fell off the aircraft we went up quite, well a hundred to two hundred feet and it was extraordinary. I never expected quite that reaction. Only two twenty thousand pound bombs were dropped on that occasion and it was quite obvious after the explosion that the viaduct was either totally destroyed or very badly damaged and in any case would take some work to repair. In January 1945 we were briefed to attack the U-boat pens at Bergen in Norway. We made the attack but there were, and we had a fighter escort as well but unfortunately the fighter escort went down to silence the gun emplacements, the German gun emplacements. Just after they did this a number of Focke Wulf 190s and ME109s appeared and started to cause havoc amongst our aeroplanes. Johnny, Johnny Pryor was shot down and I believe somebody else and I remember that Tony Iveson was attacked by a fighter and badly damaged but he got his aeroplane back safely to the UK and got a DFC for his efforts. December 1944 we attacked the U-boat pens on the Dutch islands just off the Dutch coast. They had been attacked a number of times before but the pen, the roof of the pens had not been penetrated and therefore most of the damage was done just outside. However, one or two of our Tallboy bombs did penetrate the roof and caused havoc within the pen area itself and did quite a lot of damage generally. The last operational trip the squadron did during the war was on April the 25th 1945 against the Eagle’s Nest in Berchtesgaden which was very close to the Austrian border. I remember that we hit the Waffen SS barracks, the special troops guarding Hitler and the Gestapo headquarters so the raid was probably worthwhile even though it was right at the end of the war. There had been some attempts to sink the Tirpitz by both the Royal Navy and the US navy but the bombs they were carrying did not have very much effect as they were too small. After that it was decided that 617 squadron would be used to actually get rid of the Tirpitz which was a great menace to shipping in the Atlantic. There were three attempts made to sink the Tirpitz. The first one was made from the UK was a one way trip to Yagodnik and from there from Yagodnik the aircraft then took off to attack the Tirpitz. This trip unfortunately had no success so different methods were thought of to approach the vexed question of getting rid of the Tirpitz. The second and third raids were both carried out from advanced base in Lossiemouth Scotland and for this on occasion, on this occasion we had enough fuel, we had extra tanks to get us there and back without refuelling. A lot of equipment was taken out of the aircraft to make way for the tanks and to ensure that the load wasn’t too heavy once we got out bomb on board. A plan was devised in which there would be two large extra tanks inside the fuselage and to do this a number of things had to be stripped from the aircraft. The armour plating behind the pilot’s back, I regret to say, was removed and everything else we didn’t appear to need was taken out. We had a rear gun, a rear gunner and a turret but we didn’t have a mid-upper gunner. And the tanks when we, I beg your pardon, when we got in the aircraft to start the operation there was an awful smell of petrol throughout and it was clearly dangerous if even a spark was to, would have blown up each aircraft. Our take off was at midnight from Lossiemouth and if a film writer had written the script it couldn’t have been better. There was low cloud and a lot of rain and there we were, our aircraft lined up around the perimeter track waiting for take-off and we could hardly see each other really for the bad weather. However, all went well. We all went off and set course for landfall on the Norwegian coast. We flew over the sea for some hours and our only navigation was an attempt to produce winds on our own. No. Our only navigation aid was finding winds ourselves and any that might be broadcast by Bomber Command. However, at daybreak we all, however at daybreak we all coasted in at the agreed rendezvous and formed up in a gaggle to make the rest of the trip through Norway and on to the Tromso fjord. As we, as we went up the spine between Norway and Sweden we were we made our way towards the turning point for the actual bombing run. All this went very satisfactorily and we turned for the run in and as we neared the Tirpitz we could see the battleship but there was also cloud coming in and to add to our grief they’d put up a large smokescreen all around the, all around it. It was almost impossible to bomb accurately so the trip was aborted and we returned to base.
AP: Yeah.
LBSG: The whole trip took thirteen and a quarter hours and we heard, sorry, the whole trip took thirteen and a quarter hours and on the way back my wireless operator tuned into the news from the BBC and we heard that the Tirpitz had been bombed. We had a very, we had a bit of chuckle about that as we knew. The third trip was a repeat of the second trip but on this occasion the Tirpitz could be seen quite clearly and the ship was, the battleship was sunk. I’d like to say a little bit about the SABS. The bomb site that only 617 Squadron used. It was a very accurate bomb site but needed not only very accurate, accurate settings like the wind velocity at the height we were bombing from, the temperature and other, and other details. It also demanded a completely straight and level flight from the pilot otherwise the bomb aimer could not release the bomb with any confidence. The Lancaster, despite its size was a dream to fly and whatever the air ministry chose to hang on it afterwards it seemed to react very little. It was the most reliable aircraft. Many people said because it had inline engines we were more prone to engine loss because of the cooler that we carried and the inline engines of the Merlin, of the Merlin but that never seemed to affect anybody. The aircraft itself took a lot of punishment and we always had the utmost confidence in it. There is no sound in this world like Merlin engines after they’d been throttled back to reduce power whether it’s on the approach to land or at any other time and that applied to Merlin engines on whatever aircraft they were fitted be it the Lancaster or the Spitfire on which I did quite a, two hundred hours. Clearly like every other crew on operations we were damaged on occasion. We were damaged and one or two incidents I can remember. One was the bomb aimer was lying prone in the bomb aimers position and flak came through the aircraft and filled his flying, the heel of his flying boots, both of them, and part of his, and damaged, damaged part of his flying boots but never hit him, which was extraordinary. And the other great escape I can think of is the wireless operator. He happened to lean forward towards his radio as wireless operators did with his hand on one ear to hear a station he was trying to tune in better when a shell came through one side of the fuselage and exited out of the other. When we landed we sat the wireless operator in his normal position, that is not leaning forward, and measured, took various measurements and realised that if he hadn’t leant forward at that moment the shell would have gone straight through his head. Looking back it seems to me that the worst moments, well they weren’t bad moments but perhaps the most edgy moments were when we waiting on wet grass perhaps at midnight for a very pistol to go off. If it was a green one it meant we were going on ops. If it was a red one it meant ops were cancelled and we sat there chatting away as normally as we could but as soon as we got the green very and got in to the cockpit everything settled down as normal. It was much too much to think about once I got strapped in to think about anything else but the operation. One thing I would like to emphasise very strongly. Without the ground crew there would be no air crew and we always maintained a very friendly relationship. They were there day and night whenever we took off and whenever we came back. Come winter, summer. They were there in the pouring rain and in the snow waiting for us and to service the aircraft as soon as possible once we’d done what we had to do. I have nothing but the highest and fullest praise for the ground crew and I’ve never understood why they never to have been acknowledged in any way and I still think about them as unsung heroes. I’m often asked what it was like flying on operations during the war and I can truly say that even though there might have been very slight tension before we actually knew we were going to get in to the aircraft and go off once we did that once I was strapped in to the cockpit all my tension went and I was concentrating on the job and I feel sure my crew felt the same way.
AP: And -
LBSG: And as we were flying we had to focus on what we were doing and although on occasions we were attacked and there was anti-aircraft fire it was absolutely imperative that we tried to dismiss that and not lose control of what we were supposed to be doing. It was important that our crew worked as a crew and not individually and it was, as far as I know, the rule of Bomber Command that once you got a crew you stayed with it because you got to know each other. You got to trust each other and everybody knew what to do. Everybody knew their job. There was the rear gunner, the mid upper gunner, the navigator, the wireless operator, the bomb aimer and me the pilot and we all had our own work to do even if, even though we had to cooperate with all of them or some of them depending on the circumstances. Attention on the bombing run that team work was foremost. The bomb aimer had to set the correct height, wind speed and airspeed on his bomb sight which he got from the navigator and I would set a course given to me by the, by the navigator in the first place and corrected by the bomb aimer on the run in. Now the corrections in the Lancaster of 617 squadron were made with a little dial on the combing of the instrument panel and it made a one degree alteration look rather large so it is no exaggeration to say that the bomb aimer could also on his bomb sight of one degree correction and it would show up quite large on the indicator that I had which meant a touch on the pedal and the aileron or both as the case may be. This proved a very satisfactory method of correcting very small amounts.
AP: That’s good. So there’s some really good teamwork there between -
LBSG: I was going to say, the, I think a word, can I say, I think, a word about the bomb sight itself may be appropriate. I believe it was the only type of its use in the air force and the bomb aimer and the navigator and the pilot had to work closely together. We relied on the navigator to give the correct height in barometric pressure. The correct wind speed and the correct temperature and one or two other things which the bomb aimer then fed into his bomb sight and when I was given a course to fly it had to be absolutely accurate and the height had to be absolutely accurate. I think we were allowed plus or minus fifty feet and a few knots in airspeed if that but it had to be very accurate. Now, the corrections on the run in were made by the bomb aimer on a dial which showed with a little arrow which went left or right and had degrees marked off on it and the bomb aimer would alter his run in with his bomb site itself and that would show on my dial and one degree ever, I beg your pardon, a one degree error showed up quite largely on my dial so I made the correction in the way that was indicated. The Tallboy and the Grand Slam bombs were a huge asset because it enabled us to hit more accurately the targets and to destroy ones we probably could never have destroyed before.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS150808
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Norway--Bergen
Norway--Tromsø
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Benny Goodman discusses some of his operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron. He discusses attacking the Tirpitz and the use of Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs which required the Lancaster plane to be modified. On a flight against the U-boat pens in Bergen the fighter escort left the squadron to attack the gun emplacements on the ground leaving them exposed to the German fighters which appeared suddenly and attacked them. His last operational flight with the squadron was an operation to Berchtesgaden.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:03 audio recording
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Grand Slam
ground crew
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
pilot
submarine
Tallboy
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/902/11141/PJeziorskiAFK1705.1.jpg
b0afbe684515684bf5971bdd84c46713
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/902/11141/AJeziorskiAFK170705.2.mp3
19b7a4c29196aeb69bb8636724988644
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jeziorski, Andrzej
Andrzej Fragiszek Ksawery Jeziorski
A F K Jeziorski
Description
An account of the resource
25 items. An oral history interview with Colonel Andrzej Fragiszek Ksawery Jeziorski (1922 - 2018 P241 Polskie Siły Powietrzne), his log books and photographs. Originally in the Polish army, he arrived in England from France in 1940. He flew operations as a pilot with 301 Squadron and Coastal Command 1942 - 1946.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Andrzej Jeziorski and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jeziorski, AFK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 5th of July 2017 and it’s half past twelve and I am in Chiswick, Grove Park with Andrzej Jeziorski to talk about his time in the RAF and experiences of getting to Britain. So, what are the earliest recollections you have of life?
AJ: Well, I was, as I said, I was born in Warsaw and first few years I, we lived near Gdansk, in Sopot because my father was an officer in the Polish Navy. My father served during the First World War in the Navy but shortly after I was born, he transferred to the Air Force and he reached rank of Colonel eventually. We, initially we stayed in Sopot in Gdansk then we moved to Warsaw and shortly after that my father was sent to Paris for two years to Ecole Superior [unclear] for further technical studies, he was actually diploma engineer and he was sent there for further studies on airline engines and airframes. On return to Poland, we, my father was initially posted to Deblin, which is the Polish Air Force Academy and we stayed there for four years, that was my sort of first contact with the Air Force. We returned to Warsaw in, round about 1930-31 and I commenced schooling in Warsaw, in Poniatowski Gymnasium [laughs] but that’s not very important. And I, and we stayed in, lived in Warsaw until the outbreak of war, in fact I remember in 1939 I returned from the summer holiday on the 28th of August 1939 and I was getting ready to go back to school when in the morning of the 1st of September I was awakened by the gunfire and sirens. I ran into the garden and I saw the formation of German bombers surrounded by the puffs of explosion from the anti-aircraft guns and that was it, that was the beginning of the war. And my father was recalled back to [unclear], he was already retired and worked as engineer in the [unclear] aviation factory in Warsaw but he was recalled back to service and he was posted to South-Eastern Poland with a group of officers to receive the aircraft that was sent from Britain via Constanta, unfortunately the aircraft only reached Constanta harbour and they were never offloaded because of the advance of, very quick advance of the German forces. Aircraft were Fairey Battle, even that all, that useful to Poland because it was a light bomber, really, and we needed fighters but neither France or Britain could provide fighters, they were rather short themselves. Anyhow, we, my mother on the 5th of September, my mother decided that we follow our father to Lviv, to South-eastern Poland and we left Warsaw for Lviv and we stayed in Lviv for several days and on the 17th of September when Russia attacked Poland we travelled across the border to Romania where we re-joined my father in Romania, he was already across the border. We stayed in Romania for about a month I think and then we travelled via Yugoslavia, Italy [unclear] to Paris, to France. Initially I was a little bit too young to join the forces, so I went back to lycée, back to school. It was a Polish Lycée that existed in Paris for many years before the war. Anyway, I started my school again in Paris. In, one [unclear], I completed the first year of study, was actually lycée for last two years before matriculation. When offensive started, German offensive started, my father agreed that I would join the Army and I was, I passed my, all the tests in Paris and the interviews and I was posted to cadet officer’s school near Orange, I think the name was Bollene but I am not sure, don’t quote me that, I only managed to reach Bollene when France collapsed and school was evacuated via Saint-Jean-de-Luz and to Plymouth and from Plymouth up to Scotland to Crawford in Scotland. In Scotland we continued our training very quickly, it was amazing how quickly everything was organised, initially we were issued with infantry armament but shortly after that [unclear] carriers arrived and Valentine tanks and we trained, completed our training by November 1940, we completed our training and I was made the cadet officer, corporal cadet officer [laughs]. The, shortly after I completed my training, the Polish forces decided that, to be an officer, I must get my matriculation, in other words pass my what is the A level exam the Matura [laughs]. So, I was posted back to the same school that I was in France, that school was evacuated as well to England, to Scotland and it was in Dunalastair House near Pitlochry in Perthshire, very beautiful place [laughs]. Anyway, I was sort of released from the, for six months, from the forces to complete my study and pass my matriculation, well, I only had six months, it was difficult, but I managed and I managed to pass all the exams and I went back to the tank corps, it was 16 Tank Brigade number 2 Battalion of tank corp. Round about that time, I decided that I must try to transfer to the Air Force and I started to applying to be transferred to the Air Force, explaining that I have sort of family links with the Air Force [laughs] and I asked them to consider this and transfer me to the Air Force. Eventually, I managed [laughs] and in beginning of 1942 I commenced my training as a pilot. Training initially was four months of ground training in preparation for flying, then, after short leave, initial flying in Hucknall near Nottingham and from there another four months service flying school at Newton, also near Nottingham. I completed my training, I obtained my wings, and also I obtained my commission [laughs], which was organised [laughs] and I was posted to RAF Manby, which was the first Air Armament School, it’s half, about half way between Peterborough and Grimsby, a line between Peterborough and
CB: It’s in Lincolnshire, yes
AJ: RAF Manby
CB: Manby
AJ: First Air Armament School, pre-war station, the station commander was Group Captain Ivens, First World War pilot, rather severe but we [unclear] [laughs] and [unclear], he had certain sympathy towards us and he was a good station [unclear] and we spend many months flying there and I was flying as a staff pilot, flying Blenheims IV and Blenheim I on mainly bombing training. Well, after many months of that, I was suddenly posted to Squires Gate to a general reconnaissance course which meant that I will be posted to Coastal Command because it was mainly navigation training for flying over the sea. It was just over two months course, rather severe but that course helped me a lot in the future because I obtained second class navigation warrant and that helped me in obtaining my licence later on, civvy licence. Eventually, after completion of training in Squires Gate, I was posted to the squadron, which was based in Chivenor and I started flying as a second pilot. Initially, one had to do at least ten, sometimes more flights as a second pilot before being posted to Operational Training Unit to pick up his own crew. Well, I did my ten operations mainly flying over the Atlantic. The flying was consist of patrols, long ones lasted, patrols lasted for over ten hours, we had special additional fuel tanks in bomb bays, apart from depth charges, aircrafts was Wellington XIV, especially designed for operations in Coastal Command, it was equipped with ASV, Aircraft-to-Surface Vessel which was, although it was a primitive radar, it was a very good radar, we could pick up contacts distance over one hundred and twenty miles, that if contact was large enough [laughs], it was, flying was tiring but I found rather interesting it, weather was not in favour of us particularly when we were based up north in Benbecula the weather was our greatest enemy, flying sometimes in very terrible conditions over the Atlantic and several times we had to be diverted to different fields because weather was closing on, closing the fields on the west coast of Scotland so we had to be posted sometimes to Northern Ireland to Limavady. It was interesting and eventually I was posted to Operational Training Unit to Silloth, RAF Silloth that was 6 OTU Coastal Command to pick up my own crew. We completed our training there, we were posted back to squadron and just as we completed initial sort of training with the squadron, war ended and that was the end of my war, but the squadron was posted to Transport Command and I was posted to Crosby-on-Eden Transport Command Conversion Unit, it was a tough three months course for pilots, getting them ready for operation in Transport Command, it was tough course but again that course helped me in obtaining my civvy licences later on. In, on return from, unfortunately I was due to go to India with my crew, getting ready to be posted to India but unfortunately my navigator failed the last of overseas medical, they discovered that he suffering from anginal heart and I lost my navigator and because of that I was posted back to the squadron, 304 Squadron, which in the meantime, was operating as Transport Squadron from Chedburgh, and that was the squadron operated Warwicks, sort of large Wellington [laughs] transport plane, and operating mainly to Athens with [unclear], we operated via east, Pomigliano near Naples and then Athens and back again [laughs]. And I stayed with the squadron until the end of the existence of Polish Air Force and we were all transferred to Polish resettlement call but I decided to continue flying and I was posted to [unclear] Navigation School and I flew Wellingtons, Wellington X, from Royal Air Force Topcliffe in Yorkshire and I was there for about a year and a half until I was asked to relinquish my commission and I went back to civil life, civilian life, but, as I said, I managed to complete two very important courses in RAF and that helped me quite a bit in passing the exams for airline transport pilot licence. And I, in possibly 1948 when I commenced my flying in civil aviation. Initially, my first employment was in, up in Blackpool and I operated Rapid aircrafts, De Havilland Rapide over the Irish Sea from Blackpool to Ronaldsway and to Dublin and Belfast and Glasgow, for about, for a whole year I was operating over the Irish Sea for Lancashire Aircraft Corporation, that was the firm I was employed with, Lancashire Aircraft Corporation. Lancashire Aircraft Corporation later changed name to Skyways and I stayed with the firm and I was, after a year in Blackpool, I was moved to Bovingdon to join the crew of captain Raymond, very good pilot, to operate Haltons, a transport plane, Halton was a civil version of Halifax 8 C and we used to operate freighting services to, well, yes, we used to fly everywhere, to the Far East, to Singapore, to Island of Mauritius [laughs] on the Indian Ocean, to the, all around the Middle East and but in about, after about a year operating with, flying with Captain Raymond we had a rather, in fact very unpleasant incident. We were due to take eight tons of optical instruments, four tons from UK and then four tons from Hamburg and operate to Hong Kong. We took off early in the morning, must have been seven o’clock in the morning, beautiful day, we climbed to our cruising altitude which, as far as I remember, was nine thousand feet, and I just went down to my navigation cabin to start my navigation, I obtained first pinpoint I remember at [unclear], I’ve written it on my logbook, when fire bell rang. I rushed back to the cockpit and I saw the number one engine on fire, it was not only fire but black smoke, we turned back towards Bovingdon but just at that time, just looking at that engine when the whole engine separated, the engine cracked in second row of cylinders, just cracked, and propeller, reduction gear, cowlings and front part of the engine just separated and took fire [unclear], and propeller just sort of twisted right and hit the leading edge of the aircraft, between the engines and cut through the leading edge and through the oil tank of number one, number two engine and a few moments later engineer had to stop number two engine because of lack, he was losing oil. Anyway, we were still at about eight thousand feet and we flew towards Bovingdon, Bovingdon also of course helping us with QDMs etcetera, help passing all the weather information etcetera and weather, as I said, was absolutely perfect, I could see Bovingdon from great distance I could see the runway and captain Raymond decided that we would land crosswind on as long runway accept crosswind was about ten knots and land direct on a long runway and we made a superb approach, or actually captain Raymond did [laughs] and we landed safely in Bovingdon. The aircraft looked terrible. One engine gone, one engine feathered, the aircraft covered with oil and dirty smoke [laughs], remnants looked absolutely terrible but would you believe, the engineer managed to fix it in three days, they replaced the engine, replaced the tank, replaced the leading edge and three days later aircraft operated to Milan. It was almost unbelievable [laughs]. But anyway, great work on British engineers [laughs]. So that was a rather unpleasant beginning of my long service with civil aviation, would you like me to continue?
CB. We’ll stop just for a minute.
AJ: Sorry?
CB: We’ll stop just for a moment. So, we are talking about Skyways and the incident with captain Raymond,
AJ: Yes
CB: But after that you got, what happened to you, you got your own command?
AJ: After that I started flying as a captain, we converted from Haltons to Avro York. I don’t know if you know the aircraft
CB: I know
AJ: [unclear]
CB: The Lancaster
AJ: And we started to operate mainly to the Middle East
CB: Right
AJ: Mainly to a place called Fayid in Canal Zone, that was of course in military zone of Canal Zone and civilian planes were not allowed to land there because of agreement between Egypt and UK, that only military planes would be landing on Canal Zone so we were all given a complementary commission between Malta and Fayid we operated as RAF crews on RAF markings and everything, we were back in uniform for a little while. The operation to the, there was always something happening when we were there, I remember first sort of international problem was the Iran, the, Mr Mosaddegh trying to get Abadan
CB: The oil field
AJ: [unclear] Abadan
CB: Yes
AJ: So we were all put up in uniforms and transferred to Castle Benito in Libya, later Castle Idris, artillery was loaded on our aircraft and we were all ready to occupy Abadan [laughs] but fortunately nothing happened, Shah returned to Iran and don’t know what’s happened to Mr Mosaddegh, but anyway he disappeared. So that was the first sort of international incident that I have seen and the next one of course was Suez, that was during the premiership of Mr Eden when Nasser, President Nasser decided to nationalise Suez Canal and of course there was a war between Israel and Egypt and Israel occupied Sinai peninsula and we were also involved, immediately involved in transferring flying troops not only to Cyprus to reinforce the Polish British base, there but also to other parts where there was a danger to the British [unclear] in Bahrein, Aden we had to fly troops there, also we had to evacuate British personnel from Castle Benito because of the danger in revolt in Tripoli. There was of course a big row between United States on one part and France and UK on the other but anyway everything slowly settled down and we started to operate via Cyprus to the Far East, mainly on trooping contract again. Cyprus was very pleasant place initially after the war as far as I remember, but slowly EOKA started to operate and things started to get really nasty, well, in fact, we lost one aircraft, EOKA managed to plot to put bomb on, in the gallery of one of our aircraft departing from Nicosia to UK with RAF families. The captain on that flight was I remember captain Cole and they were travelling from the hotel in Kyrenia via through the Kyrenia Mountains they had a puncture and the wheel was damaged, anyway they were delayed about forty five, fifty minutes to arrive at the airport, they were of course in a hurry, immediately [unclear] ran to the aircraft to distribute pillows and get cabin ready for the families to join the aircraft and the engineer was on a wing and captain, captain Cole and his first officer were walking towards the aircraft from the control tower, they were about half way, when bomb exploded in the gallery. The aircraft was immediately on fire, but it was a Sunday, was it Sunday? No, it was, only day but lunchtime and everything was quiet on the airfield, just one aircraft getting ready to departure was our aircraft, well, I mean, firm aircraft not mine [laughs], and the fire tender and all the emergency equipment parked near control tower, they didn’t expect anything, it was a very hot day and the crew of fire tenders had sort of undone their buttons and they were sort of sunning themselves and they didn’t notice that bomb exploded, was just [mimics a detonation] was a very small, small bomb and of course the captain, first officer noticed that, there were explosions and they started to run towards control tower to tell, to call the fire and the controller didn’t know, he was looking at them and sort of, he went on the balcony, he said, what? Aircraft on fire. So he ran back, pressed the button alarm but by the time fire tender alarm, the aircraft was gone
CB: Completely
AJ: Lost an aircraft. No one was hurt, the engine, when bomb exploded this engineer was on a wing, he almost fell off the wing but he didn’t [laughs] fortunately, girls were distributing pills in the cabin so they ran out of the cabin, no one was hurt but aircraft was lost. If you visit Nicosia, visit the museum, there was, there is a place, commemorating EOKA activities and there is a photograph of that aircraft, EOKA sort of proud that they managed to destroy one aircraft but they nearly, the aircraft was, the bomb was so timed to explode at the top of climb, had it not been for the puncture of the car bringing the crew from Kyrenia, the aircraft would have been at top of climb and that would have been it, six, over sixty RAF families, women and children were due to fly back to UK, that was one of the things that
CB: Fascinating, yeah
AJ: I still remember. The, after that, we, after that incident we started to operate trooping contracts to Far East, mainly to Singapore. We changed aircraft from Hermes to Lockheed 749s Constellation and of course it was much beautiful aircraft, lovely aircraft to fly and we initially started operating with troops to the Far East, to Singapore but later this changed into the freighting contract for BOAC to the Far East, that’s operating freight from UK to Hong Kong and to Singapore and I was posted for two years to New Delhi to operate the sector between New Delhi and Hong Kong and Singapore. It was interesting posting, India is an interesting place and it was lovely flying, one week of flying, one flight to Singapore, one flight to Hong Kong in a week and then a week off [laughs], rather pleasant and it was, generally speaking, I remember that as a very pleasant, very pleasant stay in India. As [unclear], when I returned from India, the Skyways decided to finish the operation and all the aircraft and crew were transferred to Euravia and Euravia two years later on obtaining Britannia aircraft changed the name to Britannia Airways.
CB: Ah, right
AJ: So, initially we operated 749s on inclusive tours mainly but later we started to operate Britannias, not only on inclusive tours, we had occasional rather interesting charter flights to various parts of the world. One such, interesting but not very pleasant, was evacuation of British, Belgian population from Leopoldville in
CB: In Congo
AJ: Belgian Congo. The unpleasantness of that was that we had to night stop in Leopoldville and to get to town we had to go through several military checkpoints at night and military checkpoints were of course Congolese military and they all drunk and automatic pistols it was not very pleasant to be stopped by troops, whatever they are, when they are drunk and armed with automatic pistols [laughs]. I remember that I had to stop three times in Leopoldville and every time it was rather, if I may say so, frightening experience [laughs] but anyway we managed to transfer some of the Belgian civilians from Leopoldville and by then we were, as I said, we were operating Britannias and shortly after that with this development of inclusive tours and Britannia decided to buy Boeings and I was posted together with other pilots to Seattle to train on Boeing 737-200 series, very interesting two months, a technical course first in Seattle, then simulator flying and then eventual flying on 737. And that was beginning of operation Boeing 737 which lasted for several years and then there was break because company decided to start operating to the West Coast of United States and to do so they managed to obtain two lovely aircraft, was a Boeing 707-320 Intercontinental, that was the most lovely aircraft I ever flew and we were operating the 707s to the West Coast, mainly to San Francisco, to Los Angeles, to Canada, Vancouver, occasionally to Tokyo via Anchorage, polar route to Anchorage, so always very interesting and also I was, for six months I was transferred to British Caledonian because they ran out of, they were short of crew and I was posted to join them for a few months and rather unpleasant sort of posting because I was operating South American routes, operating to Santiago, to Chile. Now, Chile at that time was run by president Allende, communist, he was elected Communist president but the whole country was trying to get rid of him because the country was in chaos there was, shops were closed, there was shortage of food, in the hotels food was rationing, we had to take some food off the aircraft to reinforce our ration in the hotel and as you know eventually military took over. I was the last aircraft to leave before the revolution, so I remember how the aircraft, how the country looked during President Allende regime, and I was the first one to land after, with military already in command and all of a sudden the country changed completely, all shops were open, plenty of food, wine shops open, the lovely Chilean wine in hotel, everything was in perfect, so I know that British public and particularly British press very much in favour of President Allende and they hated the idea of military takeover but to us who operated [unclear] the difference between what it was like during the Allende regime and later was very noticeable and to be quite honest we were on the side of Mrs Thatcher [laughs], side of Mrs Thatcher. After these few months with British Caledonian, I was getting close to my retiring age and eventually I retired at the age of sixty. My last flight with Britannia was on 22nd of December in 1982. And I was immediately offered the position of ops manager with Air Europe in Gatwick. I started to work there and at the same time a friend of mine, Mike Russell, who was training [unclear] Britannia Airways, he informed me that he bought Rapide aircraft, that was an aircraft that [unclear] operated [unclear] and he asked me if I would like to occasionally fly for him out of Duxford, the Imperial War Museum in Duxford with the passengers to show them how the old airliners used to look and fly before, in 1930s and soon after the war and I agreed and every weekend practically I used to go to Duxford to fly the Rapide for him. So, as you can see, I commenced my civil flying on Rapide aircraft and I completed my last flight, civilian flight was also on a Rapide and that’s, that’s the end of the story.
CB: Amazing, yes. Thank you, we’ll stop for a bit.
AJ: We
CB: We are just taking a step back now to when you arrived in the UK, what happened?
AJ: As soon as we arrived in UK, the courses were arranged by the local authorities to teach us or to commence to teach us English and it was normally arranged but sometimes by military, sometimes by local authorities. In RAF of course it was standard procedure that we had to attend lectures in English practically every day, that’s in RAF, in the army it was sometimes arranged by the local authorities, as far as I remember, but somehow, somehow we managed [laughs] in spite of difficulties, it’s not easy to learn the language when one is over twenty, but we managed somehow
CB: Who were the people who did the training, the courses in English for you? What sort of people, were they schoolmasters or what?
AJ: The, in RAF they were mainly lecturers from Oxford and Cambridge [laughs], mainly young lecturers from Oxford and Cambridge and so, I didn’t pick up the accent but [laughs], but anyway they were very good. They were excellent lecturers. And lectures were all in English
CB: But
AJ: And we managed, but somehow we managed
CB: They were part of the RAF education department
AJ: Yes, commission
CB: Yeah
AJ: Commission area and they were teaching us [laughs]
CB: And
AJ: Mainly very young lecturers
CB: They were, yes. And how did they deal with that because you had two requirements, one was the basic understanding of English, wasn’t it? Then the other one would be technical English for flying, so how did that
AJ: That used to go together with lectures, during lectures of course we, we learned the technical language, how these things are called in English and that was fairly easy and also we had sort of general lectures to improve our ability to express ourselves [laughs]
CB: So, how many of you were on this course?
AJ: Sorry?
CB: How many people were being trained with you at the same time?
AJ: [unclear], about twenty, normally about twenty [unclear]
CB: Right. Were they all Polish or were some Hungarian and Czechoslovakian?
AJ: Only Polish
CB: Right
AJ: No, we, in those days there were no Hungarians, [unclear] only Polish. As I said, our relationship with lecturers were very, very good [laughs]
CB: So, off duty, cause you were all the same age so, off duty what did you do?
AJ: [laughs] So we, we managed somehow
CB: But you would go to the pub, would you, with them, off duty, or what would you do?
AJ: Oh yes, yes, always, nearest one [laughs]. My social life was always pleasant, particularly when I was based in Blackpool for a while, I remember, the social life there was very pleasant because Squires Gates was quite close to St Annes and there were very pleasant girls living in St Annes [laughs], it was, rather pleasant
CB: And were there lots of dances?
AJ: Oh yes, yes, we, dancing was a typical past time during the war [laughs]
CB: And cinema?
AJ: And cinema as well
CB: Did the
AJ: We, in, when we were based in Benbecula, we had a special sort of supply of new Hollywood productions, always first of all they used to arrive us to show us the film that appeared in London about a week later [laughs]
CB: [laughs]
AJ: That was just to try, trying to make our unpleasant life in Benbecula just a little bit more pleasant
CB: Yes
AJ: I assume Benbecula is a dreadful place for weather, sometimes the winds were size eighty miles an hour [laughs] and it was difficult to sleep because of the noise
CB: Oh, really?
AJ: And quite often unfortunately the airfield was closed by the weather
CB: Yeah
AJ: [unclear] divert
CB: This is on an island on the west coast of Scotland. What was the accommodation like?
AJ: Mainly Nissen huts
CB: Right
AJ: I think the only brick house on the station was a squash court [laughs], the rest was all Nissen huts [laughs]. But squash court was brick [laughs]
CB: Now you were used to a different type of food and catering in your youth so how did you adapt to the British diet?
AJ: Oh, there was no problem. Polish diet here, if Polish families was a little bit close to British because food was rather scarce and was difficult to arrange Polish menu [laughs]
CB: Yeah
AJ: Which was rather rich and
CB: Yeah. Now, this business of learning English, so you are learning English for a social conversation but when you came to learn RT, radio telephony, then was it more difficult to deal with English that way?
AJ: No. I think, no, we had no difficulties on the radio, we used standard procedure and standard language
CB: Yes
AJ: Limiting the conversation to absolute minimum, only necessary information absolutely necessary, we were not allowed to run long conversation, before operation of course there was a general arty silence, complete silence before operational flight, we were not allowed to use radio for to get permission for take-off, was all visual
CB: All done with [unclear]
AJ: All visual
CB: Yeah
AJ: Yeah, so not to, you’re doing everything possible to, not to tell the Germans where we were or what we were doing
CB: Yes. Thinking of how the process of training, so you did your initial training on what aeroplane?
AJ: On Tiger Moths
CB: Right. And after the Tiger Moth, what did you?
AJ: Oxford
CB. Onto the Oxford
AJ: Oxford
CB: For your twin engine flying.
AJ: Yes
CB: Then what?
AJ: Oxford and then I, when I was posted to First Air Armament School, it was Blenheim I and IV
CB: Right
AJ: Again we converted, on arrival there we had to pass conversion course, which was run by local training, training officer
CB: Now you said we, does that mean you were all Poles or was there a mixture of people on all these courses? Were you all Polish people on the training, or was there a mixture of nationalities?
AJ: No, mainly all Polish and sometimes some Czechs. But Czechs from different squadrons, we had our Polish squadrons, [unclear] few Czechs served with Polish Air Force. Among them was the highest scoring pilot in the Battle of Britain. He was, his, he was Polish by nationality but he was born Czech
CB: Ah
AJ: So his nationality was actually Czechoslovakian,
CB: Yeah
AJ: But he was Polish
CB: Polish born
AJ: Citizen
CB: Ah, right
AJ: It was flight sergeant Frantisek, he was the highest scoring pilot in the Battle of Britain but we never say he was Polish, he was Czech [laughs]. Unfortunately, he was killed during the battle
CB: So after you were on Blenheims, what did you move to next?
AJ: To Wellingtons
CB: Right
AJ: So, in the RAF, I flew Tiger Moths, Oxfords, Ansons, Blenheim I and IV, Wellington X and XIV, Warwicks and DC-3s. The DC-3 was mainly in Transport Command conversion unit
CB: Right
AJ: That was all. We were due to fly DC-3s in India but
CB: Ah, so you went to conversion unit
AJ: Didn’t happen [laughs]
CB: Now, you were all being trained together, in Bomber Command at the OTU, the various specialities were pilot, navigator and so on, were put in a room and they then made a self-selection of a crew, how was your crew put together as Polish people?
AJ: Mainly by sort of knowing each other and for first few months were lectures so it was easy to know the, to become aware of that particular, he must be a good navigator [laughs], so I used to ask him, would you join my crew [laughs]? As exactly my navigator was a lawyer from Krakow University [laughs] and I thought, oh, he’s a lawyer, he must be good navigator [laughs] and he was, he was, unfortunately he was not very healthy
CB: And the crew of the Wellington with six in Bomber Command, in Coastal Command what was the crew numbers? How many people in the crew in Coastal Command?
AJ: In the crew? Six
CB: Right. So, who ran the ASVE? Who ran the ASV Set?
AJ: Sorry, I didn’t
CB: Yeah, you had the airborne radar, the ASVE
AJ: Yes
CB: Who’s job was it to run that?
AJ: Who, radar?
CB: Yeah
AJ: Well, all three radio navigators were trained gunners, radio officers, and radar operators and during the operational flight, they changed every two hours
CB: Right
AJ: They changed rotation, one, two hours in the rear turret, two hours at the radar and two hours at radio station,
CB: And you said that when you went on ops, then they were long and you had extra tanks, what was the nature of the sortie? Would you drive, fly to a long, the farthest point and then do a square search or what did you do?
AJ: We managed to go to the patrol area and then we patrol, mainly box patrol in a certain area, sort of and there was one aircraft operating this sector, the next aircraft, several aircraft was sort of blocking say Western approaches
CB: Right. And what height would you be flying?
AJ: Fifteen hundred feet
CB: Right
AJ: We were flying at fifteen hundred feet mainly
CB: So, how often did you use your armament when you were on ops?
AJ: Well, [unclear] we didn’t have, we didn’t attack submarine [unclear] but what you’re trying to do is to try to keep submarines submerged and several times we picked up a good contact but as soon as we started flying towards it the contact disappeared because they could see us on their radar or could hear us
CB: Cause they had a radar detector didn’t they?
AJ: And they of course submerged very quickly and changed course. So it was very difficult to. In 1943 the Germans decided to not to dive but to accept and fight and they armed the submarines, it was a very heavy armament and it was extremely dangerous to attack submarine because of heavy anti-aircraft armament on the submarine and the attack was normally from between fifty and one hundred feet, we had electrical altimeter
CB: Ah, right
AJ: To get down to a very low altitude [unclear] and we had to illuminate the target with Leigh light, the aircraft was equipped with a very heavy reflector which used to be lowered hydraulically and the navigator, just about a mile from the target used to illuminate and he could control the reflector to pick up the target first standing above him were the [unclear] machine guns and of course as soon as he saw the target he used to open up to the front guns, a very high rate of fire, Browning machine guns, they were like automatic pistols, mainly anti-personnel guns
CB: Yeah
AJ: And very high rate of fire, very close to one thousand five hundred rounds a minute so and that was type, the radar operator was to sort of directing the aircraft towards the target until it was about a mile from the target, about a mile from the target the navigator used to illuminate the target
CB: Where was the Leigh light mounted in the aircraft?
AJ: Sorry?
CB: Whereabouts in the aircraft was the Leigh light?
AJ: It was in the middle of the fuselage
CB: Pardon?
AJ: Middle of the fuselage, underneath
CB: Ah, middle of, right
AJ: Used to be
CB: Ahead of the bomb bay, was it?
AJ: And that’s why ditching on Wellington XIV was never successful because the fuselage used to break just where the Leigh light was so there was never, not one Wellington XIV ditched successfully
CB: Really? Yes
AJ: Cause was the weak point
CB: Yeah
AJ: In the fuselage, so
CB: Now
AJ: General, general sort of method of attack which we trained of course all the time was to, as soon as the target was picked up by radar, to obey the instructions from radar operator to direct the aircraft towards the target [unclear] come down to about a hundred feet, sometimes even lower, and about a mile from the target illuminate the target [unclear] and attack six depth charges, it was a stick of six depth charges so if that was the target [unclear] six [unclear]
CB: Was the method of attack
AJ: That was the method of attack
CB: To the side of the submarine or head on?
AJ: No, we used to drop the depth charges trying to in front of it so that the submarine ran into them but it, as I said, it was not easy, you can imagine at night submarine firing back at you [laughs] and to aim six depth charges to drop in front of the submarine in the direction the submarine was heading, it’s, it required quite a lot of courage to
CB: I can imagine. What about the other members of the squadron? How many of those attacked submarines?
AJ: I can’t tell you exactly but aircraft, we had some success but not during the time when I was in the squadron because then German submarines were equipped with [unclear] and they could stay submerged for a very long time, in fact the only time, the only possibility of finding the submarine was to observe the sea and to see the smoke coming, providing wind was not too strong, it was possible to see the smoke just like smoke of the train going through the depression
CB: From the diesel engine
AJ: You could see the, you could see the puffs of smoke coming out from sea [unclear] that was the submarine and
CB: Because
AJ: It was to attack, but of course submarine dived before that [laughs] because they were on the periscope all the time and they could see the aircraft approaching so they would crash land, crash dive
CB: Yeah. So the period that you were with the squadron on these anti-submarine duties was quite short. Did you feel disappointed that you hadn’t had enough time?
AJ: Yes
CB: How did you feel?
AJ: Sorry?
CB: How did you feel?
AJ: I felt that the war avoided me [laughs]
CB: Yeah
AJ: That was my feeling. I wanted, you know, I thought that I’d do at least one tour in Coastal Command and then I would, that I would go back to Bomber Command, but it never happened,
CB: No
AJ: War ended
CB: So, as a Pole in England, in Britain, did you feel a particular sense of urgency to do something about Germans?
AJ: About?
CB: The Germans and submarines. Did you feel you really wanted to make a mark?
AJ: Sorry, I didn’t quite
CB: Well, as a Pole, in view of what the Germans did to Poland, did you feel, putting it a different way, that you really wanted to pay them back?
AJ: Well, that was a general thing that you wanted to, as you know the, towards the end of the war we realised that we in Poland is the only country had lost the war
CB: Because of Yalta
AJ: We knew that sooner or later Germans will be supported by United States not only because of the power of Russia but because of industrial power that it represented and what can we say, it was few rather unpleasant years, we were absolutely certain that there will be friction between the West and East but we also knew that it will not be a major war because of the danger of atomic power but you knew that there will be some small wars like Korea and others. Nowadays we are on reasonably good terms with the Germans but memories last for a long time
CB: Yes. And after the war, what was the general feeling of Polish people, that war had finished and how did the Polish people feel about it?
AJ: Well, we were all, as you know, we were all very disappointed, everyone was trying to organise himselves to get back to normal life, in spite of the fact that it will be away from Poland. We were all sort of rather disappointed but somehow we sticked together, we managed to stick together in our organisation and we knew that sooner or later something will happen but unfortunately it lasted for over fifty years
CB: Yes. But in the time after the war, in the fifties, there was the Hungarian and the Czechoslovak uprising, so how did the Polish people react to those?
AJ: You know, there was a very strong reaction in Poland although the Polish government was, then Polish government, Communist government was very much with the Russian policy, the general opinion of Poland, of Polish population was very much pro Czechoslovakia, later on pro Hungary and eventually problems, troubles started in Poland, we started [laughs], Solidarity, this, we knew that sooner or later something will happen, but we were not certain how long it would take
CB: Just finally going back to when you came to Britain
AJ: Mh?
CB: When you first came to Britain, what was the reaction of the population?
AJ: Initially, it was very friendly, very friendly indeed, particularly that was time of Battle of Britain and was well known fact that Polish fighters were fighting together with RAF, Polish Navy was still in action, together with Royal navy, Polish forces defended, together with Australians defended Tobruk, they distinguished themselves in Norway before that, in Narvik [laughs], so there as, Poland was popular initially, but towards the end of the war, change, everything changed completely
CB: Did it?
AJ: Russia was the great ally and we, we were the troublemakers, we tried to create trouble between the West and Russia, that was the general opinion
CB: Was it? Really?
AJ: But of course change, things have changed very slowly, changed again because Russia begin to show their power and there was of course Berlin airlift and all those difficulties created by Russia and we all knew about it, this is part of the Russian policy to establish Communist regime everywhere
CB: Right, we’ll stop there a mo. Now, after the war, then a lot of squadrons and the Air Forces created associations, so, the RAF had squadron associations and there was a Polish Air Force association
AJ: Yes, Polish association was established very soon after the war, initially as soon as war over it started to become but the year it was established actually in 1945, 1945 and initially it was created by Polish Air Force senior officers, junior officers and other ranks were sort of more interested in getting themselves organised initially but later on everyone sort of joined in and the Polish Air Force Association was one of the biggest organisations, Polish organisations in UK. We all, the Polish Air Force Association was helped by the Royal Air Force association and we established a very good contact with the RAF, Royal Air Force Association, several clubs were formed very quickly, clubs one in London and one in Blackpool, one in Nottingham, Derby and so on, and generally speaking it was
CB: Just a couple of minutes
AJ: Generally speaking, it was very sort of organisation, which was very active, very active socially
CB: Yes
AJ: And of course, initially was also helping the former members of Polish Air Force to establish themselves here or in other countries, United States, Canada, Argentina even [laughs]
CB: Yeah
AJ: So
CB: And then the memorial, so a memorial was established, built at Northolt
AJ: Yes, the Polish Air Force memorial was built rather early, soon after the war. It was unveiled by Lord Tedder and later on it was enlarged and now it just exists [unclear] we have ceremony there every year
CB: Yeah
AJ: Was a tradition to have one, wreath laying ceremony in September every year. And another memorial was built in Warsaw, giving the, with names of all the aircrew that had lost their lives during the war. If you are in Warsaw, you go and see that memorial, it is one of the nicest memorials in Warsaw.
CB: Now, after the war you were busy flying airliners so, to what extent did you get involved with the Polish Air Force association?
AJ: Well, initially when I was flying, it was rather difficult because I was busy all the time but towards the end, when I started working in Gatwick as ops manager, I started to work for the Polish Air Force association, initially as chairman of London branch, and then as honorary secretary, vice chairman [laughs], gradually I went up in a position in Polish Air Force Association, in a
CB: And you became the chairman
AJ: Sorry?
CB: And you became the chairman
AJ: Well, chairman of Polish Air Force Association charitable trust
CB: Right
AJ: That was at the end of existence of Polish Air Force Association. Polish Air Force Association organised trust from all the remaining [unclear] the organiser trust
CB: Yeah
AJ: Which was very active for several years and
CB: And that then lead to the Polish Airmen’s Association
AJ: [unclear] what [unclear] is now Polish Airmen’s Association
CB: Yeah
AJ: Mainly sort of consisting of families, families [laughs]
CB: Yeah
AJ; But there are still a few of us
CB: You’re active in that still, aren’t you?
AJ: Few of us remaining [laughs]
CB: Thank you
AJ: Thank you
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Andrzej Jeziorski
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJeziorskiAFK170705
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:19:38 audio recording
Language
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eng
pol
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
Poland
Singapore
England--Lincolnshire
France--Paris
Poland--Warsaw
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939-08-28
1939-09-01
1940
1942
1943
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Andrzej Jeziorski was born in Poland and, when war broke out, fled to Britain, where he flew as a pilot with 304 Squadron. Remembers the 1st of September 1939. Talks about his father, a Navy officer who served in the First World War. Mentions his first contact with the Air Force when he and his family moved to Deblin. Tells of his escape from Poland to France, his further education there and his evacuation to Britain. Initially, he was posted to Scotland and trained to join the 16th Tank Brigade. He then decided to transfer to the Air Force and in 1942 started training as a pilot. Was posted to 304 Squadron on various stations. Tells of his career in civilian aviation after the war: operating flights for Skyways and Britannia all over the world, until his retirement in 1982. Talks about his life in Britain during the war and mentions various episodes: being taught English by university lecturers and socialising with them. Tells of being assigned with going on patrols, locating and attacking enemy submarines. Expresses his views on Poland’s situation after the war. Talks about the Polish Air Force Association in Britain, his involvement in it and the memorials to Polish aircrews.
301 Squadron
304 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
memorial
pilot
radar
RAF Chivenor
RAF Manby
submarine
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2090/34780/SRAFIngham19410620v010004.2.jpg
6876ea79afc07b00e10a7f4f4cd2acd3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2090/34780/SRAFIngham19410620v010001-Audio.1.mp3
863d4820f91339ff0c46c7bb1aa17ee2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group. Andrzej Jerziorski
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An interview with Andrzej Jerziorski, pilot's notes and photographs.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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RAF Ingham
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GB: Okay, we’re recording now, so. What would you like me to call you by the way?
AJ: Andre.
Andre.
AJ: Andjay is the correct pronunciation, but, I don’t know why, in RAF and in Britannia they always called me Andre. [Laugh]
GB: Andre right, Andre it is then, lovely. Can we start, first of all, could you tell me, please, what year you were born and where you were born in Poland, please?
AJ: I was born in, on 23rd of December 1922, in Warsaw.
In Warsaw itself.
AJ: And I lived in Warsaw most of the time, well, say important [emphasis] part of my youth I lived in Warsaw. Part of the time I lived in, when my father was serving officer Polish Air Force, so I spent four years in Polish Air Force Academy in Deblin. Before that we were in Paris for a little while while my father was studying at the Ecole d’Aeronautique in Paris.
GB: And how old were you when you were in Paris then?
AJ: Oh, I was four years old.
GB: Oh, four, so very young, probably didn’t realise Paris, what Paris was.
AJ: I still remember a little bit, not much.
GB: And as it came towards the beginning of the Second World War, was your father involved in defending Poland?
AJ: He was already retired, but working as an engineer in aeronautical, in engine manufacturing, aero engines factory in, but he was still reserve officer and he was called back to, to the service just before the war.
GB: So it was natural for you to want to join the Polish Air Force.
AJ: Yes, but unfortunately it didn’t start with that, [chuckle] it was, took me a long time before I managed to get to the Air Force. I joined the Army first.
GB: Right, okay. Can you tell me a little bit about that, and your journey?
AJ: Yes. I managed to get to France after the campaign in Poland, with my father. We travelled via Romania, Yugoslavia, Italy, Italy to France, where I went back to school, for a year, and in 1940, the German offensive already started, I joined the Polish Army, in France, and I was posted to Officers Training School in southern France near Orange, place called Boulin; it was the Tank Corps Officer’s Training School. Of course I didn’t stay very long because France collapsed, we were evacuated to the harbour, very close to Portuguese, to Spanish border, Saint Jean de Luz, it’s a small fishing village to the south of Bayonne. And Polish ships and British ships picked us up from there and we sailed from Saint Jean de Luz, well actually, we had to first of all row to get to the ships because they were moored about a mile or two from the shore.
GB: You had to row!
AJ: [Laugh] Yes. This is just fishing village. Anyway, it took us about four days and four nights to get to Plymouth, part of that we were escort by Sunderlands, and then we were transferred from Plymouth to Scotland when, where the Polish Army started to re-establish again. [Laugh]
GB: How did you get from Plymouth up to Scotland?
AJ: By train.
GB: Oh, by train, not by lorries or anything, no.
AJ: No, by train.
GB: Quite comfortable though.
AJ: Very comfortable, by comparison to France it was great camp. Everything was, I must say, very well organised. We landed at [indecipherable], we had to wait for everything to be arranged for us, when we left the ship everything was prepared for us, a big buffet, tea [laugh] typical NAAFI tea, sweet, and we were sort of given some food to take with us for the journey to Scotland.
[Other]: Shall I put it on the table?
GB: Please, if you’d like to yes, thank you, yes. Sorry, do you want me to help at all? Would you like me to, shall I move that for you just while you do that? Is easy? Is that all right there?
[Other]: It’s fine. [indecipherable]
GB: Oh lovely, thank you very much. [clinking china]
AJ: So we, it was amazing how quickly we managed to get organised. First of all we were given the infantry equipment, but soon afterwards [door noise] bren gun carriers started to arrive, then small tanks, Crusader and Valentines and eventually Churchills.
GB: And this was all up in Scotland.
AJ: Up in Scotland. Initially in a place called Crawford, I think that’s where we trained, and then we were moved to Blairgowrie, near, in Perthshire, and we were based there for about just over a year trying all the time to get to the Air Force, eventually I managed, in beginning of 1942.
GB: How did that come about, that you, you say you managed to get into the Air Force, did you have to keep asking and applying, or were they after volunteers?
AJ: I have to, well I was trying to tell them, this is, you know, my father served in the Air Force, why shouldn’t I serve in the Air Force!
GB: Better than the Army.
AJ: I volunteered anyway, to join the Army from, eventually they considered my application and immediately I joined the Air Force I started training. First of all in Brighton, I did have initial training in Brighton, then initial flying in Hucknall, near Nottingham, and service flying in Newton, also near Nottingham. All the training, Polish Air Force training, was concentrated round Nottingham.
GB: I know, I’ve just finished thirty years in the RAF myself, and I did some of my training at Newton. Oh thank you very much. Yes, so I do know Newton, unfortunately, this last, whoops, excuse me, [crashing sound] I tell you, I’m all fingers and thumbs, let me just, excuse me.
AJ: Use my spoon, I’m not going to use it.
GB: Are you sure? Thank you. Yes, they have started to pull Newton down now unfortunately, it’s no longer an RAF camp, which is very sad. They’ve knocked a lot of the old blocks down there, but it happens all over.
AJ: Pity. Pre war station wasn’t it.
GB: I think they’re possibly going to put a memorial up to the Poles, on the station which is very, very good. So you did your training at Brighton, Hucknall and Newton then, yes.
AJ: Then I was posted to first bombing school as a staff pilot to fly with the bombing leaders [dropping sound] [laugh] on the various exercises, bombing exercises. The, Manby was the, well pre-war station was first armament school, very nice station, maintaining all the pre-war traditions including dining in nights every Thursday. [Laugh].
GB: Did you like those? You found them very?
AJ: Yes. I must say it was very nice, your guys always [drinking] parade every, every Wednesday morning. [Laugh] Station Commander Parade. But there used to be quite a lot of flying, mainly on Blenheims, Blenheims I and IV.
GB: Right.
AJ: Quite interesting.
GB: Did they try and persuade you to do a different job other than pilot, or it was straight away you want to be a pilot?
AJ: No, after initial training in Brighton, there was, that’s where we could sort of either choose to go as navigators or as pilots, or sometimes they simply they told you you are very good for navigation, you are going to navigate! [Laugh] Anyway I went for pilot’s training.
GB: Do you think, yourself, do you think you were a very good pilot at the beginning? Or did, did you take to it naturally?
AJ: Er, no, I wouldn’t say it was all very easy, it was, I was an average pilot, not bad.
GB: Some bumpy landings then!
AJ: [Laugh] Well, had no trouble with landings, more with, initially we were flying on instruments there but it all came back, working. Eventually, I can’t imagine now without, flying without good instrumentations.
GB: Obviously after the war when you flew civil aircraft it was all much better instruments, probably, than through the war. So when you’d finished your flying training then, and your staff position at Manby.
AJ: I was posted to General Reconnaissance Course, that was in Squires Gate, near Blackpool. It was a two months course for aircrew detailed to go to Coastal Command, mainly navigation training. Very, very tough course, but very good one. But, and after that I joined the squadron.
GB: Was, was the actual navigation course that you did there, the air reconnaissance course, was that all based in the classroom or was there a lot of work out and about?
AJ: There was quite a lot of flying as well, on Anson, Avro Anson, over the Irish Sea.
GB: Anson. Not the best [indecipherable].
AJ: Not many flying hours as pilot but quite a few, as navigators, with day and night, various exercises, including astral navigation and everything. So it was very interesting, very interesting indeed. I joined the squadron when the squadron was at Chivenor, it was.
GB: Down in Cornwall, isn’t it.
AJ: In 1944, Autumn 1944. The squadron was based at Chivenor, equipped then with Wellingtons 14s. Specially adapted Wellingtons for work, as an anti submarine work, equipped with very good, for those days, radar, ASV - Aircraft Surface Vessel. That went with seven, later eight machine guns, and six depth charges in the main bomb.
GB: Yeah, the bomb bay
AJ: Bomb bay, the aircraft was of course prepared for very long patrols, so the additional tanks in a bomb bay, so we could stay on patrols for over ten hours. So it was, we had sufficient fuel for just over eleven hours.
GB: Was that mainly daytime or was that night time flying as well?
AJ: Mainly night.
GB: Night.
AJ: Some day, but mainly night. Aircraft was, apart from radar, was equipped with a Leigh Light, the huge hydraulically operated reflector in the middle of the fuselage which was operated by the navigator during the attack, and the usual stuff, I’m detailing you with?
GB: No, no this is very good, the details are very important so as many details as you like!
AJ: Providing you stayed safe, radar operator picked up contact, could have been anything, could have been submarine, could have been fishing vessel, or small coastal vessel, French. We were, of course, told never to attack either the fishing or the coastal vessels because we were on anti-submarine work and we had to stick to that, but we of course didn’t know what the contact was.
GB: Until you got very, very close.
AJ: Until we were right on top of it. So the radar operator used to guide pilot towards the target, of course pilot used to decrease the height to minimum. We were equipped with, the only Wellingtons equipped, with the, it was a sort of a radar altimeter, we called it electrical altimeter. It was a very accurate machine and could estimate our height above the sea level. We could go actually, with a little bit of risk, we could go down to fifty feet on, using that altimeter. Although it was bit of a risk, but anyway during the attack it was quite [beep] altimeter, very, very good instrument. Now the idea was that the radar operator used to guide the pilot toward the target, the aircraft was all prepared for the attack. The navigator was forward operating the Leigh Light, he used to operate like two handlebars, up and down, left and right.
GB: And it was a million candle watts or something like that, that kind of power was it? Must have been quite, er.
AJ: That’s right. The first officer, or actually the second pilot, was standing above him, operating machine guns, and the idea was to get to the target to within one mile and then navigator used to count to ten then switch on the light, of course becoming a magnificent target for the submarine to open fire. [Laugh]
GB: And I presume the submarines were always on the surface at night time because they considered there was less chance to be seen.
AJ: Contrary to opinion, submarines tried to stay on the surface all the time, if possible, and submerge only when either there was a danger of air attack or, or say they picked up a convoy and they wanted to attack the convoy. They were trying to have batteries in best condition possible for this kind of work. So, most of the time, time, submarines were actually on the surface, so it was possible to pick them up with radar. But of course they were not asleep, as soon as they heard us they used to crash dive or change course and become a disappearing contact.
GB: It was a case of picking them up on nights where it was a bit. So was it a case you had to try and catch them on nights where weather wasn’t so good so they couldn’t hear, lookouts couldn’t actually see you.
AJ: In 1943, that was before I, before I joined the squadron, the Germans were actually ordered to stay on the ground, on the surface and fire back. They were equipped with very good anti aircraft guns and they were very dangerous indeed, particularly at night, because of Leigh Light. One of our aircraft attacked submarine, they damaged it, but aircraft was also very badly damaged. It was, I remember, Flight Lieutenant Jan Sobraski, they survived, but only just. They managed to get to base but with huge holes in the wing and in the tail.
GB: That’s probably testament that they got back to the -
AJ: So that was only proof.
GB: The geodetic design of the Wellington.
AJ: Oh yes, Wellington could withstand considerable contact.
GB: Could stand that: burn all the skin off and still stay in the air couldn’t it, yes. So during your time with 304 down at Chivenor, can you tell me a little bit about what life was like on the ground during those days when you weren’t actually flying?
AJ: Chivenor of course was always a very nice station, beautifully situated. When I joined the squadron, squadron was very, very happy. [Laugh] Social life was very, very lively at Chivenor. Of course crews, only, when one arrived as a pilot to join the squadron, first ten flights was always as a second pilot, just to get experience because of waves, navigation and weather and also the difficulty in picking up the targets, it was necessary actually to gain some experience. First ten flights was always as a second pilot, so I was flying there as a second pilot. Life on the station as well, I remember at Chivenor was, we didn’t stay, we didn’t stay, I didn’t stay perhaps long enough to know it better but it was, I know quite a few parties organised at the officers mess and so the social life was very pleasant, overall, particularly during the summer when plenty of tourists about.
GB: The beach is a lovely place to be, and Chivenor, is that Devon or Cornwall?
AJ: It’s Devon, still Devon. Later on, after Benbecula, we were stationed at St Eval and that was in Cornwall.
GB: Yes, I’ve heard of that. So when you were at Chivenor then, were you in, was your accommodation in nissen huts or was it proper brick built?
AJ: It was not nissen huts, it was sort of a barracks. We shared rooms, normally two officers to one room. Sometimes it was bigger accommodation for four officers in one room, and that was quite a big room, so it was reasonably comfortable. But I say, I didn’t stay very long because, Admiral Donitz started his offensive with submarines equipped with snorkels, you probably heard about that. We heard for a long time that they were moving such a possibly to operating diesel under the sea and to work sort of exhaust pipe sticking out, but it was a matter who actually invent, was quicker in inventing it. The Germans were a little bit quicker and there was a danger that Admiral Donitz would start new submarine offensive going around Scotland, entering the Atlantic from the north, so the squadron was moved from Chivenor to Benbecula, to Outer Hebrides, and that was quite a considerable change from the comfort of Devonshire to the Outer Hebrides.
GB: And the weather as well I would think!
AJ: The weather was absolutely, and that was winter 1944 45. After several, actually, the biggest enemies there were a, weather, b cruel seagull. But, so, still ten hours patrol in continuous sort of westerly strong winds and very frequent wintry showers, with visibility dropping to zero; it was quite tiring, tiring patrol.
GB: What kind of, obviously I know you wear wearing flying clothing with the big fur jackets, the leather jackets but did you have any other form of keeping you warm in the aeroplane?
AJ: Wellington was heated a little bit, the worst place was tail of the aircraft, but up to position of navigator it was not necessary to wear any specially hot clothing, just ordinary flying suit.
GB: Just your flying boots. And the big fur boots.
AJ: Sometimes some pilots used to wear those fur, Scottish aero jackets but I used just ordinary flying suit and I was quite comfortable, I was not cold at all.
GB: On a normal, average, ten hour flight that you did, the operational flight, how much of it was actually action and how much of it was just, not mundane, but just looking and everything is quiet?
AJ: Well during the ten hour patrol, sometimes we had to go down perhaps three, four times to investigate what the target. Most of the time it was a fishing vessel, we used to scare them! [Laughter]
GB: Suddenly putting the light on, yes.
AJ: Sometimes it was just a coastal, coastal one, little one, ship, same as coast to French, crossing Bay of Biscay, plenty of fishing vessels and our patrols from Benbecula used to go the almost to the, almost to the coast of Iceland but not quite. We could see Iceland on the radar.
GB: I’ve read, I’ve looked into a lot of the operational records of 300 and 305 Squadron, and they’ve flown Wellingtons Mark III, IVs and Xs, and they seem to have an awful lot of problem with hydraulics was one problem, oxygen supply seemed to fail to the back gun turret a lot. and there was another one, I think was it oil pressure, oil pressure on the engines, and they seemed to be the things that, they’d fly out on an operation they’d have to turn back and in the column at the end, the, is it the 541 or 540 that the Station Ops would write afterwards.
AJ: When they were operating Bomber Command they had different engines. They had I remember the big [indecipherable]. We used to have already Hercules 100, much better engines.
GB: The Bristol Hercules.
AJ: And we didn’t have much trouble with, in fact great admiration for our engineers who maintained our aircraft on Benbecula in atrocious conditions. We didn’t lose one [emphasis] aircraft throughout the winter. It was amazing to think that they, every time the aircraft was prepared up to the best, was the best possible condition.
GB: Were you the only squadron up there or was there any other squadrons?
AJ: No, initially when we arrived there there was our squadron and four Fleet Air Arm squadrons, they operated Swordfishes on patrols closing shores, and we used to go into the Atlantic.
GB: Further afield.
AJ: Initially we sort of looked at each other, but not becoming too friendly! But the Station Commander said now this must end, so he asked us to organise a huge party. So we arrange huge party and entertain four, four squadrons of Fleet Air Arm and after that we were great friends. They stayed, in think, on Benbecula for, with us, for about two to three months around then and then they left. I think they, I don’t know where they were posted back to [indecipherable] somewhere.
GB: And what was roughly the date, or the month and year when you left Benbecula can you remember? Can you remember when you left Benbecula?
AJ: Ah, we left Benbecula in spring 1945. I was due to go to OTU to pick up a new crew, already, and as a captain but it was, for some reason, the course was delayed and the squadron was posted back from Benbecula to St Eval, in Cornwall, and started to operate over the English Channel again.
GB: Just in time for the summer!
AJ: Yes, that’s right. Anyway, and I did one operation, last operational flight as second pilot from St Eval and then after that I was supposed to pick up a new crew in number six OTU at Silloth, near Carlisle. And that’s where the war ended, [laugh] when I was, when we had just completed our course, due to be posted back to the squadron as a unit. And after that the squadron was, shortly after, was posted to Transport Command and I, with part of my crew, I was posted to Transport Command TCU at Crosby on Eden to train to go to India but unfortunately my navigator failed the last medical, for overseas medical. They discovered anginal heart, and so I was posted back to squadron again with only radio officer so I, instead of flying Dakotas in India, I was flying Warwicks with 304 Squadron again after the war, mainly operating to Athens, to Naples and east in south of France.
GB: All difficult destinations then, after the war! [Laugh] Naples and South of France.
AJ: Well, South of France was all right. But even in winter, the weather sometimes over the, over the Masif Central of France could be quite nasty and the Warwick was not particularly good in the bad weather, so.
GB: No. So how did you end your time in the Polish Air Force, you became part of the RAF didn’t we in 1947?
AJ: Well actually towards the end we [bleep] part of the RAF, and then the authorities decided to form what was called the Polish Resettlement Corps, and to, but then I was already determined to join civil aviation. Because I completed the course for Transport Command, and because I completed the navigation course with general reconnaissance, I managed to get civil licences very easily because they considered those courses up to standard [laugh] so I managed to get civvie licences, and very quickly after leaving the Air Force I was employed by Lancashire Aircraft Corporation, first. Initially at Blackpool but then they operated from Birmingham and all over the world.
GB: Yes. Well, you’re obviously, you were the right person at the right place and the right time really, to get that because I’ve spoken with many veterans, who after the war, struggled to find a job because obviously there were only limited occupations that the then British government would allow the Polish, the ex Polish veterans, to go into. You were, well not lucky perhaps, right place, right time.
AJ: I was. I must say that from the moment I joined the civil aviation I was sort of walking from one job to the next. My firm, I was changing the firms but it was simply because the firm decided to change the name! So from Lancashire Aircraft Corporation it was Skyways, from Skyways it became Britannia eventually. So I stayed with the same, more or less, same pilot same firm, for my flying career.
GB: If you could, if now, if you, if I said to you you can fly any aircraft you like, that you’ve never flown, past or present, what, if you could have a wish, to fly one aircraft now, if you were capable and able to fly, what would be the one aircraft, past or present?
AJ: Most favourite aircraft was, for me, was Boeing 707 320 Intercontinental. It was a most magnificent plane and I used to fly, well we used to fly, to Los Angeles, direct from Los Angeles back to Luton, used to fly to South America, to Far East, to Tokyo, everywhere. Beautiful aircraft.
GB: Beautiful aircraft.
AJ: Absolutely superb aeroplane; that was absolutely my most favourite aircraft ever.
GB: Compared to the Wellington.
AJ: Well, the Wellington also, from, well perhaps from military.
GB: From that era.
AJ: I would say Wellington was nicest planes to fly.
GB: They were very nice. Do you have any particular memories from the time that you were in 304 Squadron? Any funny stories that happened on the ground or in the air, anything?
AJ: No, I was, I must say, I am one of those lucky ones. My worst incident was in the beginning of my career in civil aviation when flying Haltons, that’s Halifaxes actually, we, well that was on one, that was very close one because we caught fire on number one engine after take off, we were actually at top of climb, flying to, was the beginning flight to Hong Kong and we were due to pick up some freight from Hamburg, we were flying from Birmingham to Hamburg and we just reached the top of climb and I just reached down to start navigation and all of a sudden bells started to ring and we caught fire number one. Few moments later, the whole engine separated and the propeller sort of twisted and hit the leading edge of the port wing, where oil tank was for the inboard engine, so we lost all the oil from the inboard; we lost two engines. One engine was completely gone, separated, and one we had to stop. But it was very difficult to fly because of this huge, flat surface where engine was, and that was not aerodynamic, so the huge drag, to fly straight you had to drop on one wing and anyway, we managed to, the weather was superb, we could see Birmingham for miles and miles and we flew slowly back to Birmingham and landed Birmingham without any incident; that was an experience!
GB: Oh, you go through the whole of the war years and afterwards.
AJ: Surprisingly enough, this aircraft was serviceable within two days!
GB: Really.
AJ: They changed the leading edge and changed the tank, they changed the engine aircraft was fully serviceable and flew to Milan as far as I remember.
GB: That just shows you. I’m sure these days it would be in the workshops for weeks and weeks wouldn’t it – that’s the difference. [Pause for tea!] During your time up at Benbecula, was the accommodation a bit more sparse up there?
AJ: Benbecula we stayed in nissen huts, and we shared nissen huts, well as far as, four officers to a nissen hut. We had a batman too who kept sort of fire going all throughout the night.
GB: You had a stove in there.
AJ: Right in the middle and sometimes it was too hot! [Laugh] [Cough] But kept it running. And of course it was reasonably comfortable, but what was amazing really, because of these very harsh conditions, very hard conditions in Benbecula, the squadron kept together and we had much more pleasant memories from Benbecula than we had from many other stations, for some reason. Was difficult to explain, but because of the harsh conditions, and difficulties, difficulties everywhere.
GB: It brings you together I think.
AJ: It brings the whole squadron together.
GB: I’ve experienced that in my time in the RAF, that when you’re away deployed to a location which is very sparse and you’ve perhaps just got a couple of tents and some camp beds, it’s better because people do bond closer together, whereas if you’re in a nice posh barracks or things, or there’s a town just down the way, people disperse and go everywhere, don’t they.
AJ: You know, for many many years during the conversation when we used to meet, we always used to remember Benbecula as the place, not St Eval and Chivenor, but this difficult station, where we are not even allowed to use the public transport which was, there was a communication between Benbecula and mainland was maintained by Rapides, de Havilland Rapides, and this was only for civilian populations, we were not allowed to use it unless there was an aircraft of ours going somewhere, that was different. But we had to go by boat from Lochboisdale to Oban or to Mallaig; that’s sixteen hours sailing, you know, atrocious weather, you know, waves appear to be higher than the mast.
GB: The boat disappears and comes back up.
AJ: And screw come, can sometimes coming out of the water, vibrating, it was most unpleasant. Sixteen hours of suffering!
GB: It was one of those places. I mean the furthest north I ever got posted was Lossiemouth, in the Moray Firth, and that was, that could be good weather and it could be bad weather a lot, lot further north, my goodness me.
AJ: Well I remember on Benbecula gusts to eighty, eighty miles an hour every few days and quite often we were unable to land back from the patrols on Benbecula, we had to divert. Divert to Tiree which was most, probably nearest, but also to Limavady and Ballykelly in Ireland, sometimes had to stay in Ireland for a day or two too.
GB: Ah, that was difficult for you, yes, I’m sure!
AJ: Usual practice was that we had to bring one bottle of Irish whiskey back [laugh]!
GB: I was going to say, I knew where that was going!
AJ: That was a duty!
GB: And some nice Irish food in boxes and see what you could bring back.
AJ: That was duty to bring one bottle of whiskey for the Officers Mess.
GB: Do you know, sixty or seventy years later, when an RAF aircraft has to stop over somewhere unusual, they’ll normally have a box of something in the back they’re bringing back for the groundcrew normally, as well as the aircrew, back at the home base, so that still goes on even though it’s not so much wartime. Nothing changes, does it. [Laugh] Goodness me. When you, with um, with your squadron being Coastal Command, when you didn’t have the second pilot was it still just a five man crew for the Wellingtons, or was more was it?
AJ: Normal crew for Coastal Command was always six.
GB: Six.
AJ: Six.
GB: Six, and then you had the extra second pilot.
AJ: Two pilots.
GB: Oh, two pilots
AJ: Two pilots, navigator and three radio officers, air gunners, they all, radar operators, gunners and radio were trained, they changed every two hours.
GB: So even the second pilot, if he wasn’t training, you still had a second pilot, automatic.
AJ: Automatic, yes. That was necessary because we, to change.
GB: The amount of time that you’re in the air.
AJ: We used to change very two hours.
GB: Yes. To give them a break.
AJ: Every two hours we used to change.
GB: I imagine, and you’ll probably be able to tell me, but even when you’re flying the Wellington I imagine there’s a lot of vibration through the yoke is there? Or not?
AJ: No, in smooth, when weather was smooth, aircraft was very nice to fly and it could go through quite rough weather, very nicely, so it was very strongly built however. We trusted it!
GB: Have you had a chance to look at the Wellington that was at the Museum, the RAF Museum, at Hendon?
AJ: Yes.
GB: I know it’s at Cosford at the moment, they’re taking it apart, rebuilding it, yes.
AJ: But that one was Mark 10 I think, not Mark 14.
GB: Yes. Was it 304 Squadron that had the Wellington with the big metal loop at the front? That was a kind of a protype radar. Was that an anti submarine radar? It was a huge big -
AJ: No, no. The 14 had the sort of, underneath the nose, antenna in a sort of covered compartment.
GB: And that was the radar was it?
AJ: Just underneath the front, where the front um –
GB: The bomb aimer?
AJ: Front gunner used to.
GB: Okay. When I go back I’ll have to research now and have a little look at them, because obviously we -
AJ: 14 was quite nice really, was quite an open, good visibility prospects.
GB: Would need to be.
AJ: One would sit and have a very good view.
GB: Did it have upper gunner on the 14 or not?
AJ: No. Just one gun forward, later two, they were very high, had a high rate of fire with very automatic pistols, anti personnel.
GB: Yeah. What was that, was that Browning 303s was it?
AJ: I can’t remember the rate of fire, but it was close to two thousand rounds per minute.
[Phew]
AJ: The normal Browning had one thousand three hundred something, but the, two Brownings for Wellingtons 14 had very, very high rate of fire.
GB: Very short bursts too, otherwise you’d have no ammunition left.
AJ: Towards the end of the war we had two, so that was very, very high. The fore gunners in the back and two guns on side.
GB: Guns on either side, right, okay.
AJ: Operated by radar operator.
GB: Well, that’s, it’s quite interesting to hear it from your perspective because obviously, a lot of the veterans I’ve spoken to so far, over this last year, have been on either 300 or 305 Squadron, very much bomber Wellingtons and members of the aircrew and even, we’ve spoken to a rear gunner Jan from, Jan Black, I can’t remember his, er, oh crikey, he lives here in London. He crashed and suffered a lot with burns and he was in the early Guinea Pig Club. What was his name? Let me have a quick look, but we spoke to him quite a bit. Um, Jan Stanichki? That’s him there, I don’t know if you perhaps see him or not. Obviously he married a lady called Black so he changed his name. It’s the one in brackets at the very top there.
AJ: Stangryciuk. I don’t know. [bleep]
GB: He lives in London, but he was an air, a rear gunner for 300 Squadron. But he, although he got badly burnt, he managed to get enough treatment and well again and so he carried on then, on to Lancasters, as well. So, he’s obviously got other stories to tell, and some are not so nice, but lots, that’s to do with the crashes and things. And then one or two others, a couple of gentlemen I’m going to go and see on Monday over in Birmingham, and I think one of them is a navigator actually, let me have a little look, oh crikey, I’m just wondering if that was somebody from 304 Squadron as well? Stanislaw Jusefac?
AJ: Jusefac. He was in 304 Squadron initially as an air gunner, then they crashed and then he was trained as a pilot.
GB: As a pilot on Spitfires
AJ: And flew as a fighter pilot.
GB: Yes. Two hundred and sixty six missions all together in total.
AJ: Something like that, yes.
GB: That’s crazy isn’t it, when you think of the whole year, the whole war time, the amount of flying, but the other gentleman was, I can’t see it now. There’s another one from 304 Squadron. But I can’t see it, I wrote it down on one of the pieces of paper. Never mind. But it’s just very interesting, listening to different, different stories and accounts of how their war kind of panned out, what they did and things. So thank you very much for chatting. Is there anything that else you think, because what we’d like to do is, once the Heritage Centre, which is the old airmens’ mess, it’s a brick built airmens’ mess, at RAF Ingham but it was only, it’s one of the war years ones so it’s just a single story with a kind of corrugated roof, and we’re renovating it to turn it into a museum, a heritage centre. Originally it was just going to be for the three squadrons that were at RAF Ingham which was 300, 305 Polish and 199, but Richard, and the Polish Memorial, asked us, because we’re the only people in Lincolnshire looking after and telling the story of the Polish bomber squadrons, because Northolt looks after the fighter squadrons, he asked us if we would accept the honour to become the home of the Polish Bomber Squadron so, and we’ve included 304 in that because flying Wellingtons you kind of fit in with that, so the intention is, when we open hopefully later next year, that part of the Heritage Centre will just purely be given over to the four squadrons to tell their whole, the whole story, but not just the squadrons, but individuals, like yourself, just to tell a little bit of your story, so it’ll be like wartime pictures and then hopefully a little bit of you, because we have a technical gentleman who does all the, he’ll cut short little bits out where you’ve been talking today, perhaps thirty seconds to a minute where you’re talking about maybe Benbecula, and then future Polish, and British, generations can come along to the centre and hear what you have to say. I don’t know, have you got a family here in Britain at all? Have you got sons and daughters at all, or not?
AJ: Yes. My son is in Germany, although he was born here, then he’s, one daughter is working in London and one in Birmingham.
GB: It would be lovely to invite you and your wife, and your family down, at some point once we’re open, for you to look around and hopefully we have done justice to the men and women of the Polish Air Force, cause we’ve, we’re covering everybody, not just the aircrew. We’re looking for, there was a lady, Zosya, not Kulinski, she was actually a cook, but she has some funny stories to tell, working in the cook, so that’s good. We had suppliers, we had a female who was doing instrument checking, so she had a workshop, she would do the instruments then go on board the aircraft, fit new instruments into, I presume your cockpit, test them and things, so that was her war and we found one or two this morning, I spoke to the, another gentleman who was an armourer so he concentrated on the bombs and bullets side of things. But it’s telling everybody’s story, and it’s, hopefully it’ll be there for future generations, Polish and British, to be able to say: never forget this; this is what happened and these are the people that it happened with. We don’t have, the group of local community volunteers that work on the project, none of us have a Polish connection, we just were so [emphasis] interested. The more we researched our little airfield above our villages we realised what had happened there, and the Poles, and then we started to do the research into the Polish Air Force and found out a lot more, and then obviously we had the connection with Richard down here in London and also the Polish Consulate General in Manchester: Lukash Lutastanski, and he’s very much on board and he’s provided some funding from Warsaw, to help with our project, so it’s exciting. I never fail to kind of be amazed when I come to visit veterans like yourself, you tell me your story which is everyday story, this is how your years went, and it’s really, really nice so thank you very much.
AJ: So we’ll probably see you at the memorial next September.
GB: Well, yes, but we are hoping, we haven’t officially announced it yet, on the 26th of May we are hoping to open our memorial garden with the memorials at Ingham because that will be done before the building is, because we’ve received some funding from different locations. So there’ll be a huge big memorial stone for the three squadrons at RAF Ingham, but there’s another big, huge big memorial stone for the four Polish squadrons, including 304, and we’ve got two nice granite name plates, because although RAF Ingham was only operational from 1942 to the beginning of ’44, a hundred and forty two aircrew lost their lives flying from Ingham, of which two thirds were Polish. So the name boards, a bit like you have at Northolt, will have everybody’s name on them, in the memorial garden. So once we know, once it’s been confirmed with the Embassy and various other VIPs, that everybody’s good to go, then we’ll send out a letter, so obviously we’ll send yourselves a letter as well, invite to come down for the day, and hopefully, well up, down, I’m used to being in Lincolnshire, up to Lincolnshire for the day, and it would be lovely to welcome you and show you what we’ve got. It’s not Chivenor, and it’s not Benbecula but it, we’re hoping that it will be embraced as the home of Polish bomber squadrons, including 304. Do you have any photographs from your time in?
AJ: Do you know, I was looking at photographs the other day, all my photographs practically evaporated, because all the, [cough] every time I was interviewed they used to borrow them and never returned.
GB: Nobody’s brought them back! [Sigh]
AJ: Sorry, but er.
GB: No, no. That’s okay. We were going to do differently. What we do is we put the photographs on the table and we photograph them, we’ve got a high resolution camera, and then take, so you always keep the photographs because several had people said that to us, that they, you know, they’ve given them out, which is really bad of people not to then return them.
AJ: But you know when, during the war, no one really bothered to take photographs somehow, although it was, there could have been some [indecipherable].
GB: I’ll have a look through my collection, they’re all electronic on the computer, but I’ll have a look through my collection, see if I can find anything with you in them, and if I do I’ll print a copy off and send it in the post to you, just so you get, it’s almost like me returning a couple of photographs to you. I’ll see what I can find.
AJ: There is one photograph of my crew in Cynk’s Memorial, Book on Polish Air Force.
GB: Yes, I’ve seen that, the two volumes.
AJ: That, yes.
GB: Oh right.
AJ: That photograph my crew in that, that photograph was taken, I think it was taken at St Eval.
GB: I’ll have a look now you’ve mentioned that, when I get home tonight I’ll have a look.
AJ: Whole crew except first officer. He took that photograph [laugh]so he is not on, but the rest of us are on.
GB: Lovely. Well thank you very, very much, I’ll just er.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Andrezej Jerziorski
Description
An account of the resource
Andrezej Jerziorski's wartime memories. Andrezej Jerziorski was born in Poland but after he and his father were evacuated from France, he managed to join the RAF and flew in Coastal Command during the war, stationed as far apart as Scotland and Cornwall. Andre explains about submarine hunting and conditions on the stations where he served. He became a civil pilot after the war flying all over the world.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v010001-Audio, RAFIngham19410620v010004
Format
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00:59:29 audio recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Geoff Burton
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Poland
England--Devon
Scotland--Benbecula
England--Cornwall (County)
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
304 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Blenheim
pilot
RAF Chivenor
RAF St Eval
submarine
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/508/8409/PDixonAS1501.2.jpg
f02964fdfafb37d33692b060246c6078
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/508/8409/ADixonAS151106.2.mp3
54a81115d09ad9d86498297a44c1d90e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dixon, Alec Stuart
A S Dixon
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Dixon, AS
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alec Stuart Dixon (178872 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Alec Dixon. The interview is taking place at Mr Dixon’s home in Cleethorpes on the 6th of November 2015.
AD: Well, we start when I was nineteen and I thought there was going to be a war so I thought I’d better get myself the best job of all. Be a pilot. And there was an opportunity because the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve had opened up Waltham Aerodrome as a training centre so I applied for the interview. There were three wing commanders I had to convince that I was the type of person that would make a good pilot and I succeeded in that but my entry was delayed because of a tooth that needed filling. When I got, when I finally got signed up it was on May the 3rd I think, when I signed up for flying at Waltham. The aircraft I was flying was on Miles Magisters and we attended every weekend for flying and during the week we attended the town centre for lectures on various subjects and this continued right through to August when there was the stunning announcement that we were to be all called up and Waltham Aerodrome would be closed down. This did happen and we all hung around waiting for something to happen that would accelerate our training. We were all posted down to Hastings where, if the Germans had had any sense when we were there it was absolutely full of potential pilots and if they sent a stream of bombers down the sea front they’d wipe the air force out without any trouble at all. Anyway, they didn’t do it. They weren’t as bright as they thought they were. From Hastings I went to Burnaston in Derbyshire and continued single-engined training and from there I moved to Little Rissington where I went on the twin-engined aircraft and during that procedure we were asked what we wanted to fly on ops and I opted to fly for the latest thing they had which was the Beaufort torpedo bomber. I thought that sounded rather good and anyway when I’d finished my training on Ansons I was posted to Silloth and there I was trained as a Hudson pilot and when I say trained as a Hudson pilot they had a particularly, method of crewing. Normally you get a pilot, second pilot, navigator, flight engineer, wireless operator and air gunners but a Hudson pilot the two pilots had to be trained on all those things. We used to fly one trip, one pilot would fly, the next trip the other pilot would fly. The second pilot would then be a bomb aimer. Maybe the flight engineer. He had, he had to be good at aldis, the lamp and at Morse. Very high specification and also operate the gunner, the gunnery turret or the side swivel gun. We had Vickers, no, yeah a Vickers gas operated. On completion of my training I went to a squadron at Leuchars in Scotland where the task was reconnoitring the Norwegian coast, the Baltic, and any shipping sailing in that area. For the first few trips I flew the squadron leader who was the flight commander. Anyway, we didn’t stay there very long and when we got over to Limavady, no, to Aldergrove. Aldergrove in Ireland which has a runway which is more like a, I forget the name of the thing. Switchback ride. It was, it leaned over on one side and back on the other and I was pleased to get to Limavady where we only had a mountain to negotiate on the circuit. There we did convoy escort and looking for submarines and that and one day I was flying, I was due to be pilot and my navigator, the other pilot hadn’t turned up and it so happened that he’d been collared by the CO, Wing Commander [Curnow] and we were after the Bismarck so I said, ‘Well you’ll want me won’t you?’ He said, ‘Oh yes. You can man the side gun.’ So there were three pilots on board and we set off and straight across Ireland. We didn’t take any notice of the neutrality of the country. We went straight on course to the station that we’d been, or a spot where we were told to patrol. I think we could see the Bismark quite a long long way away and then we caught up with a Heinkel and it turned tail and started running away from us. The CO chased it. Fired the front guns at it. Didn’t do any good. We drew alongside. Not quite near enough and [pumped lead?] at each other. I was shooting at the starboard engine on the Heinkel and I think I saw a puff of smoke come out but anyway the, my co-pilot had decided that we were running out of petrol so we’d better break off the chase and get back to Ireland which we did. Straight across neutral Ireland and that was that. Sometime later, I did quite a number of trips on the Atlantic convoy business and then one day on DROs they were asking for volunteers for PRU, Photographic Reconnaissance Unit and the chap who interviewed me said, ‘It’s more than likely you’ll go on to the new Mosquito.’ So I thought well that would be smashing. And there was a bit of a hold up in me leaving, leaving the squadron and when I got there they’d filled the course up with applicants and I was excluded so instead of hanging around they said would you like to do the Spitfires? And the Spitfire on PRU was rather a splendid aeroplane. They’d removed the guns from, and the ammunition boxes and all that from the wings and fitted it with petrol tanks which gave us a range you start here and you can go six hundred miles and come back. Twelve hundred miles altogether. Nearly about nearly six hours flying depending on the height you were flying at and everything. And it was, I was posted. When I finished the CO said, ‘Have you flown a spitfire before?’ I said, ‘No. I’m a Hudson man,’ and he said, ‘Well there’s the handbook, go and sit in the aeroplane, on the flight line and I’ll see you at 2 o’clock and ask you questions about it.’ So I had to learn all the controls and everything and he came up, ran me through and said, ‘Well you’re alright then. Off you go.’ Now, I’d been told that the Spitfire was very light on the stick fore and aft and on a Hudson it was a two handed job shoving it forward to get the tail up to get speed for take-off and I’m afraid my delicate touch [laughs] didn’t suit the Spitfire at that time. I went down the runway nearly like a camel and off on my first trip which was the, some channel ports, Languedoc aerodrome which was to the northwest of Brest, Brest [pause] and Brest and I photographed there and nothing happened. And I did most of my photography at twenty eight thousand feet which is the best suited for the cameras to give the most detail and down the coast again to where was I going then. Oh, St Nazaire. St Nazair, [?] [Dulon?] quite a lot of small places. Right down to Bordeaux and the River Gironde and then to, along to the Spanish coast and go down on the way to [?] on the Mediterranean. I never got as far as that but I used to take photographs of between, along the French Franco Spanish border in case people wanted escape routes and I thought they’d be helpful. Nobody ever said anything about, about it being useful but it might have been. And then back to base which was, you know an uneventful event and we occasionally saw the odd fighter aircraft but a Spitfire at that time was fitted with a special engine which you were allowed to use full throttle for twelve minutes and it gave some phenomenal speeds. A normal indicated speed was about a hundred and eighty knots which had to be converted according to temperature and that so you had to do all your own navigation and it was fairly easy getting the right places on the coast. Coming back, we usually came back inland photographing any aerodromes that might be there and always photograph the coast as you went out ready for the invasion. I did quite, quite [coughs], quite a few trips and then on one trip I was, we did occasionally get flak but on one trip over Brest they put up a bloody big barrage and I could hear the shrapnel hit my tail, or the fuselage behind but I had three miles a minute, a hundred and eighty miles an hour. A hundred and eighty yeah, three miles a minute. I soon finished the run along Brest harbour, turned left and went into overdrive because radio in England had said there were some bandits about. I thought that’s just what I want, cheer somebody up tell them there’s some bandits. Anyway, all of sudden the windscreen covered in oil, the canopy in oil and I couldn’t see a thing so I thought this is really a cheerful trip and I tried opening the canopy which I did and got my goggles all oiled up so I had to get, lean over to the other side of the cockpit to get looking through about a two inch gap but it didn’t give me much view and all the way back St Eval. When I got to St Eval I was feeling pretty tired and when I made my approach I was, and due to the fact that I couldn’t gauge things right because of the oil on the windscreen I came in a bit too high and landed a too far down the runway. Well that was alright. I’ll put my brakes on. I put my brakes on. Course they’d got oil on them as well and they didn’t work. I knew there was a hedge at the end of the runway so I just trickled along, switched the engine off so that it didn’t put a load on the engine, or the propeller, ran in to the hedge, tipped gently on the nose and wondered how to get out. I needn’t have bothered. There was a jeep alongside me and the flight commander and what not helped me out and that was that. They decided then that I should go to Fraserburgh as an instructor which I did and at Fraserburgh, this is another [laughs] the medical officer apparently got a bit of dual from the dual flying with an instructor and I was asked to take him up one day and I did do and we were coming in to land and I thought he’s going to be short on runway but just couldn’t tell but what I didn’t know was that the concrete runway was about ten inches higher than the ground preceding it and he touched down about a couple of feet on the grass, wiped the undercarriage off and there was another thing to explain. Anyway, they decided it wasn’t my fault and anyway he shouldn’t have been flying and it was all hushed up and off we went. When I left Fraserburgh I went into the village with my friend and at night we used to catch the train back to the camp and the driver didn’t turn up so my friend, he knew how to drive a train so he waited until the departure time and drove it back to the station and everybody got out all, no late coming back, you know, absent, or without leave sort of thing. That was quite an interesting event. But anyway, we went down to Dyce and there Aberdeen was the town and there was also a railway station just outside the entrance to the camp and we quite often, we’d overstay and sleep on the train in Aberdeen station and get back ready. The flight office was just around the corner from the entrance which was next to the station ready for flying. From there I was posted to Gibraltar and there I flew a Gladiator and a Lysander on meteorological flight and it was a devil to land at Gibraltar in the Gladiator because if the wind was in a certain direction from the southwest, yeah, southwest, the rock used to divide it and you would be coming downwind at one end and into wind at the other and the Gladiator would fly on, fly on in a breeze and wouldn’t touch down so it was quite, quite an experience as a pilot. From there, I only did a short spell there and I went on another course to, I forget the name of the aerodrome near Edinburgh, on a refresher course where I managed to get an above average assessment and posted to the Middle East. To [pause] Cairo where I had quite a smashing time and then from there I was posted to [Al Shamir?] in Palestine as a staff pilot and flying Navigators around Palestine and quite a cushy job. And then I decided I should go back. Oh I was recommended for a commission there. I was a young warrant officer at the time and I passed my commission and I was posted to an operational squadron in, due to invade Greece but when I got there the boat had left and I had to wait for transport to get me to Greece. At Greece we chased the Germans up Greece and past Salonica and from Salonica we set out one morning to bomb the marshalling yards at somebody slimovic or something like that. Peculiar name. And on the way I had engine trouble and the engine kept cutting and I couldn’t maintain speed in the squadron so the CO said you’d better turn around and go back if you can and the misfiring became more obvious and I picked out a piece of ground that looked a bit boggy and I thought well if I land in there wheels up I should be alright and I did do and I got out the aeroplane. Started walking. I don’t know why I walked in that direction but I did. Two men popped out from behind a hedge with guns levelled at me and I was, ‘Englesi. Englesi.’ They looked rather doubtful. Anyway I managed to convince them because we were dressed in battle dress which was grey and similar to the German stuff and the Germans had wings on their right hand side and we had ours on the left and we went to the village. Well they took us to the schoolmaster’s house and he spoke a bit of English and we all sat down nattering away and that night they all came, quite a few of the village came around and they have a system there where when they’ve made the wine and they then make a very potent brew. I don’t know what they call it but the idea is you toss it down and then they have a plate of jam on the table and you just stick your fist in it and then slam the jam down your throat. It’s the only way you can drink it and you can imagine after about a half a dozen of these everybody’s face was covered in jam and I woke up the next morning very [fit?] [laughs] from which I was very pleased with a terrible headache. Anyway, I set off to walk back to Salonica. I managed to get a ride on a horse and cart for a short while. In the meantime I’m carrying my parachute and everything with me and eventually when I got near Salonica which I don’t know whether it was the same day or the next day. I can’t really remember and that was the end of that episode and the Germans were still running away up in Macedonia which incidentally was where this place I’d had the drinks at and I saw the CO when I got back and he said, ‘I’ll send you on another course.’ And back to Egypt to take a single-engine pilot’s gunnery and bombing course. Instructor’s course. So I did that, completed that and found out that my squadron had been disbanded. It was getting quite late on in the war and I was posted to 43 squadron which was in Italy and I packed all my gear, called in at the aerodrome. They said I couldn’t take my gear with me. I said, ‘If I can’t take my gear with me I’m not going.’ Anyway, I got, got my way to Italy and just in time to do my last operational flight. It was because in Italy the Italians surrendered on May the 3rd which was the day I’d joined six years earlier of continuous flying. And when I’d been commissioned I was, it was a sort of an agreement that I would stay on in the RAF after the war and probably take up a permanent commission and I thought that was good but after the excitement, as you might call it, and interest of wartime it seemed damned silly playing games for something you’d been doing for real for six years and I decided that I would take the option of being demobbed in the normal way which happened to be sometime before Christmas in ‘45 would it be? Yeah. Forty. Yeah in ’45 and I was home for Christmas and my favourite drinking place was the Lifeboat Hotel on the seafront and whilst I was going in there one night and I heard my name called and the sister of one of my friends introduced Audrey. My wife-to-be to me. And I think it must have been instant attraction. Love. Whatever. She’s a wonderful girl.
[machine paused]
AD: [?] in the mess and the CO came in and said, ‘I want six of you to disarm a German group,’ and we went there and we found there was an SS and a load of Italians. I don’t think they were on full strength. I don’t know how many there were. So we marched them forward, pistols here, rifles here, grenades there and I think they were quite happy to see the end of the war. From then on, I’d given my intention of leaving the air force and I came off flying and did the adjutant’s job while he was on leave. I think I sent too many people on leave. We got into trouble for that. [laughs] And then I was home. I’d missed a bit, got a lot of that mixed up, meeting Audrey in, in The Lifeboat. From there I went back to my job. I took some shares in the business and we decided we’d build a bungalow or something. A friend of mine was a builder and he built three bungalows. This one, the next one and the one. Had a garden a hundred yards long to start with and then the Corporation took so much for road widening, grass verges.
[phone ringing. Machine paused]
AH: Carry on.
AD: Yes. So we made plans. We made plans to get married. We married on April the 24th 1948 which was a Saturday and we moved in to here for our honeymoon. We couldn’t afford to go away after paying deposits and that and started married life together which has been great ever since. Except she’s getting a bit bossy nowadays. [laughs] Don’t put that. Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Oh I didn’t tell you about when we were in Greece we used to fly over to Crete which was occupied by German troops. Landed in Heraklion. The aerodrome about midway from the main town and there the Wellington would land unload, some hundred pound bombs. We’d stick them underneath the Spit, take off and go and bomb the, what we were told was an ammunition dump. As we were getting near to the end of the war and nobody particularly fancied bombing an ammunition dump from the normal height that we bombed targets at. I’m afraid we, nothing happened. It was all false information to start with. Everybody was very happy and then that’s when we went back to Salonica and that’s the end of the war.
AH: How did you get home to England?
AD: Oh back to England. There was another story there. We went by train through Switzerland, France -
Other: I’ll switch this light on. It’s getting a bit dark.
AD: Calais and there we were camped for a night and caught the boat the next morning. There were six officers I think. Six. And probably about two hundred men and we sort of paraded on the front and the, called all the officers in to the office. Searched us all. Searched the kit and nobody discovered anything so that was fine and we got out and they just marched the men straight through without any, I thought rather discriminatory. Reversed some way or other. Do you want any more?
AH: And did you get leave when you got home?
AD: Oh yes. Yeah, I got, I was on leave for my overseas tour and demobilisation tour so I became a civvy for quite a while before returning to work where I’d, after a while I discovered that the firm were not quite on the straight path with me so I left and started my own business in the same line and then the owner of the business died and there were three accountants who were friends of his, who lent him the money to start the business and they were naturally interested in getting their money back so they approached me and asked me if I would take charge and go back to my old company which I did and we built up a really good business. Grimsby Corporation, Cleethorpes Corporation, Grimsby Rural District. Most of the solicitors including the big ones and most of the garages including main dealers. All under contract to us. Stationery Office. We even did the American Air Force at East Kirkby and so I continued until I was sixty five and I hung on three months and let the other two, and three run the business. And since then I’ve been gardening and enjoying life until I went blind. And it’s been a slow process. At first I couldn’t believe that I was registered blind. Macular degeneration. And it rapidly got worse and worse and worse. Practically total. And that’s the end of the story. Anything I missed Daniel?
DS: I think -
AD: [?] An engine failure on take-off and the aircraft swung and I managed to hold it after it had swung so far and run off the runway on to the grass because the rest of the squadron were ready to take off and unfortunately I didn’t know they’d dug a small trench parallel with the runway. The wheels got stuck and we swung around even more and I shouted evacuate ‘cause we were loaded with mines. Not mines, depth charges but I was too late they’d already clustered around the door, opened it and were out so I got myself out as well and that was the end of that. When I was flying I think I flew about ten different aircrafts. Different aircraft. I managed to have about five accidents on them. None of which were my fault thank goodness and that’s about it.
AH: Was it a shock? Was it strange to come home and not fly anymore?
AD: No. Not really. I was enjoying myself. New girlfriend. Plans. I’m busy with them. You know, running my own business and then joining in with my old firm. No. It seemed quite the natural thing to do. I have flown since. I had a lot of photographs that it’d, I don’t know whether I ought to tell you this really because it’s all water under the bridge. Might delete it later. Benson held a reunion for sixty years in existence, a PRU and I was invited there and asked if I had any photographs taken on operations which I had a photograph album full. So I stripped most of them out, handed them in and never got them back. And Daniel I met, here’s another strange coincidence. I met Daniel in Marks and Spencers. I was sitting near the entrance and this bloke came in and sat, he was waiting as well and we got in to conversation and found that he was air force and I was and we’ve been friends ever since. Jolly good.
AH: What did you enjoy flying most?
AD: What did I enjoy flying most? I don’t think anybody can fly anything better than a Spitfire. Mosquito was alright but it gave a lot of trouble. They only had one, its prototype, and it gave a lot of trouble and of course was extended and extended. Eventually they got things right. The Gladiator was a nice aeroplane to fly. As an aeroplane it was very sharp on turns and it was nicely aerobatic. You could do rolls and whatnot which you weren’t supposed to do if you were on a Met flight flying but you have to do something to make it interesting. Yeah. A Spitfire I’d plump for. I flew. I’ll tell you what I flew. Miles Magister. Anson. Oxford. Hudson. Mosquito one trip. Boulton Paul Defiant. A German aircraft I picked up when we went into Greece. An Auster. I’m sure there was one or two more. The Spit was definitely the best aeroplane to fly. I think most Spitfire pilots would tell you that. Oh, I flew a Hurricane as well. You tend to forget these things you know. I’m the same as any other ninety six year old. I can remember some things but not others. I thought I had a good memory but I’m beginning to think it’s not as good as my wife’s. She’s got family relations tied down no end. Tells me stuff from years back that I can’t remember. It’s a pity really. Pity? No. Not pity. It’s very unsettling.
[pause]
AD: Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Anyway. That’s about it dear.
AH: Thank you.
[machine paused]
AD: The essential to the German army that they had the use of that otherwise they had to give way to the Russians.
DS: But I think Coventry and the blitz were previous to that so -
AD: Oh it was tit for tat.
DS: Yeah.
AD: It was the same with London wasn’t it? There were no civilians in the war. Everybody was in it except those wide boys who lived on the black market and I think everybody patronised them. They were essential to keeping the job going really. Very unfairly but -
AH: Had you always wanted to be a pilot? Was it -
AD: Yes. My uncle was in the Royal Flying Corps during World War One and he had a garage and a cycle shop and motorbike agencies in Cleethorpes and I wanted to go and work for him when I left school but he had to get somebody in. The business had got too big and there wasn’t room for me. My mother died when I was about six or seven and a simple dose of antibiotics if it had been invented would have probably [pause]. Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Yeah. I often wondered what it was like being on a bomber crew. I think they were a very brave lot.
AH: Did you know any?
AD: Hmmn?
AH: Did you know any?
AD: Oh I lost quite a lot of friends. You see there were eighty of us I think at the beginning of the war and I’ve never met more than a dozen people afterwards. I’ve forgotten most of their names. You wouldn’t think you could do would you but you do.
[pause]
AD: Yeah. I remember when I was at St Eval. Ted Phillipson had joined me who was my, we used to motorbike together. He was a great friend. He turned up at St Eval. I didn’t see him but I had a phone call and I arranged to see him at his digs when he’d returned from a trip down to patrol the bay in a Whitley and I was going down to Bordeaux and back and it would take him all day doing it and he didn’t turn up. His body was washed ashore.
[pause]
AD: Oh dear.
[pause]
AD: That was a painting done by a friend of mine and he personalised it by putting, I forget whether it was a squadron in Greece or Italy. All PRU machines were, flush riveting and filled in and smoothed and a dull finish. Blue. And we had some pink ones which we used for low level photography. Bruneval being one fine example. You know the German radar station on the French coast. We wanted to find out all about it. Sent a PR Spit on a cloudy day, photographed the, and brought it back and did they ever send a raiding party across?
DS: I’m not sure.
AD: I’m not sure. Anyway, it ceased to be of the use that it was before it was done. You know, important little things like that in PR used to happen and all taken in as part of a day’s work.
AH: What was it like flying off to - ?
AD: Hmmn?
AH: What was it like going somewhere to photograph?
AD: Well I always had a faith that I would survive. Self-confidence. And it’s a belief without being religious but you are, believe that the Gods will look after you. If you haven’t got that you can suffer all kinds of things. It didn’t bother me a great deal because I was sufficiently confident. Perhaps over confident. I don’t know. Anyway, I survived. And I’m also very lucky what the Gods did. Anyway, I hope you got something out of all that lot.
AH: That’s lovely. Thank you.
[machine paused]
AD: Funny thing was we were never debriefed. You know when crews got back from an operation they always saw an intelligence officer and were debriefed as to what had happened. All the little incidents, whatnot. We were just told the target is this place, that place, that place. The was briefing before we had, and I used to have a map with return home points in case you got in to trouble and when we got back nobody asked you if anything had happened. You never bothered, nobody bothered very much about telling anybody they’d been shot at, chased or, I think it was regarded as [a bit in for a dig?] It might sound as if you’ve been boasting or something like that because the photographs were the whole purpose of the trip. They were the evidence that you’d been there, you’d done a good job. What more could you tell them? Nothing about their job of interpretation. I did hear later on in the, after, was it after the war? Yes it was after the war. The Germans had a photographic unit and of course they had some special Leica lenses that we didn’t have and they used to get some really clear photographs but we only had the first phase interpretation. They looked as if there was nothing obvious. They were just put, stored under February the 4th, 4:30 so and so and that was all they did whereas on PRU at Medmenham there was a second phase, a third phase of interpretation which is why that rocket at Peenemunde was suddenly discovered on one of the photographs on the third stage. It had been missed on the first and second and then that resulted in a bombing raid on Peenemunde. It was quite a satisfying job. Allowed you a great deal of freedom and licence. I remember when I finished my course on learning to fly the Spitfire the CO said, ‘I want you to go now and learn the coast from the Thames to the Humber and then next week we’ll do the south coast.’ And I flew up and I thought Humber? Well that’s where I live. So get up to Cleethorpes and have a look around. I can see the street and I went down to about a hundred feet and flew over it, pulled up and thought I’ll go around again and I went down and years later I met a bloke who lived in, opposite and he said he was upstairs looking out and he could see me in the cockpit. I was so low I must have caused a lot of consternation on the street then. The trouble was my father didn’t see me. He was ill in bed. Never recovered. There’s been a lot on radio recently about going back into the past. Wondering how it affects you. Yeah. Really got to try and find yourself haven’t you? [pause] And you’ll be wanting to go home now, won’t you?
AH: It’s very interesting. Did you have any brothers or sisters?
AD: I had a sister [she’s not?] two nephews. Keep in touch with them. My mother’s name was Dixon before she married and quite a big family but I think there was some trouble with things.
[pause]
AH: Thank you.
[machine paused]
AH: This is a continuation of the interview conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre with Mr Alec Dixon. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles and the interview took place at Mr Dixon’s home in Cleethorpes on the 6th of November 2015.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Alec Stuart Dixon
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADixonAS151106, PDixonAS1501
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
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01:12:07 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Alec Stuart Dixon volunteered for the Royal Air Force via the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. After training he flew Beauforts and Ansons, then trained as a Hudson pilot. He flew convoy escort operations and reconnaissance flights looking for submarines and the Bismarck. Recollects flying over neutral Ireland. Alec volunteered for Photographic Reconnaissance Unit and flew over France, the Spanish border the Mediterranean and Peenemünde. Followed sustained damage on one operation he became an instructor, was posted to Gibraltar flying a Gladiator and a Lysander on meteorological flights. Successive posts were Cairo, then Palestine and Italy with 43 Squadron. After the end of the war, he returned to his old workplace then started a company with friends.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
France
Germany
Germany--Peenemünde
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Ireland
Italy
Mediterranean Sea
Middle East--Palestine
North Africa
43 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
Bismarck
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
demobilisation
faith
Hudson
Lysander
Photographic Reconnaissance Unit
pilot
RAF Silloth
RAF St Eval
reconnaissance photograph
recruitment
Spitfire
submarine
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2223/39869/ABuxtonAG220823.1.mp3
5d29db5ab6d80c540b94f6fe7e7beacc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Buxton, Alan George
A G Buxton
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Alan Buxton (- 2023, Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator in 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2022-08-23
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Buxton, AG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: Hello. This is John Horsburgh. I’m here today in Northern Sydney. It’s the 23rd of August 2022 and I have the pleasure of interviewing Alan Buxton here for the IBCC Archives. Good afternoon, Alan.
AB: Good afternoon, John.
JH: Thanks. Thanks for making the time and we’ve just had a brief chat and I think we’re in for an interesting interview here. Why don’t we start off Alan by telling me where you hail from, a bit about your childhood and maybe a bit about your parents?
AB: Yes.
JH: Let’s start. Let’s start there.
AB: I was born in Parramatta on the 4th of December 1920.
JH: You’re an Eels supporter then, are you? Parramatta Eels.
AB: Well, I should be but I —
JH: Yeah.
AB: I’m not all that, you know feisty about different teams you know.
JH: Yes.
AB: Having a favourite team and that sort of thing.
JH: Yes. So did you grow up in Parramatta?
AB: I grew up, yeah my, my, my grandfather owned the Royal Hotel on the corner of Church Street and the Great Western Highway and my father worked in the hotel when he left school. He went to King’s School at Parramatta and he worked for his dad and we lived in Campbell Street, Parramatta. That wasn’t that far away from the —
JH: Yeah.
AB: From the hotel. And my other grandfather, my mother’s father he was the, he was close by at the hotel and he was a produce merchant.
JH: Yes.
AB: His name was William Walter Webb. I, I attended when I was five years of age Parramatta Public School. A little primary school and when I did start there the custom was in those days you had to write with your right hand. If you didn’t write with your right, if you picked up the pen or your slate pencil thing with your left hand teachers would come along and rap you over your knuckles with a ruler. But my mother was a bit sharp and she got a doctor’s letter to stay that I was a left hander and I wasn’t to be made to write right handed. And she produced that to the headmaster and I never ever got a hit on the knuckles because of that letter that my mother submitted to the Head. Lived in Parramatta until I was about six years of age and my dad, we moved to central Concord when my dad got a job as a vacuum salesman. The Electrolux. And he used to go around to the various houses selling Electrolux machines to, you know the various housewives which was pretty good. He was doing very well. It was quite a, you know it was an innovation and he made, he was quite comfortable. He decided he would open up a [unclear] shop.
JH: What’s that?
AB: Well, it’s now they call them a delicatessen.
JH: Oh yes, okay.
AB: And that, this was in Concord West.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And —
JH: Which is now Homebush I think.
AB: Hmmn?
JH: Near Homebush.
AB: Yeah. That’s right.
JH: Yes. I know.
AB: We were going quite, it was going quite well until the depression started and when people then didn’t have the money to be able to buy delicacies from a [unclear] shop or to have afternoon tea or morning teas at the tables because money was so tight and he went broke. And that was when in 1930 and we had a tough time during the depression years. Dad didn’t have, have a job and eventually the war started and then my dad joined up as soon as war started. Joined up the Army again after having served in the First World War.
JH: In the First World War. Yes.
AB: And he put his age back. He was, in 1939 he was forty two.
JH: Yes.
AB: And he said he was thirty four because you had, in those days you had to be over eighteen and under thirty five to get into the Army. When my dad joined up I thought to myself well I’ll join up too. So I, I went and oh prior to that I had seen an advertisement in the paper that the RAF were requiring volunteers for aircrew and there was a five year training course. So I applied for that and I got interviewed. I did tests. English, maths and I managed to pass all those subjects but when I got to the medical they knocked me back. They said, ‘You’re not fit for flying duties.’ Which was the requirement in those days.
JH: Not because you were left handed I hope.
AB: It wasn’t because I was left-handed. They told me that I, my depth perception wasn’t good enough. I wouldn’t be able to land the aircraft safely. So that was before the war started. It was around about, around about the, towards the end of 1938, early ’39. And then when war started I got a call up by the RAAF and I went through the same rigmarole. Did the tests and the result was I wasn’t fit for flying duties.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Which was the requirement in those days. In the early days. So I said to them, they said, ‘Well, you can come in as ground crew and you might be able to remuster.’ And I said, ‘Oh no. I won’t do that.’ I said, ‘I’ll join the Army instead.’
JH: Yes.
AB: So I went in to the Army.
JH: So Alan what did your father say when he, he found out that you’d joined the Army? Did he know about it?
AB: Well, I I put my age up from nineteen to twenty one and of course you didn’t have to produce your father’s mother’s written permission to join you see. So —
JH: Yeah.
AB: So, he was a bit upset about that but he said, ‘Well, what am I going to do with you son?’ He said, ‘If they put you in the infantry I’m going to tell them how old you are.’ He’s remembering the infantry of the —
JH: First World War.
AB : First World War. How crook it was. Anyhow, when I was inducted into the Survey Regiment he thought well that’s a good idea.
JH: Yes.
AB: You’re not going to be stuck in the in the trenches. He was thinking that’s what it was going to be like. And I, I trained in various camps in Australia. Eventually we went to the Middle East.
JH: By ship I presume.
AB: Hmmn?
JH: By ship.
AB: Oh yes. We —
JH: Yes.
AB: I went [laughs] by yeah by, we went to the Middle East by the first trip that the Queen Elizabeth had done as a troop ship.
JH: Yes.
AB: And when we entered, when, as you enter the ship’s doorway on the side of the ship we were handed a card. Each person got a card and on the card was where you were to be quartered and I got a card which says A deck and then a cabin number.
JH: Yes.
AB: When we eventually found out where this was we went up and got in to, inside this cabin and we had this magnificent cabin my mate, Alan [Sear] and myself and it was a luxurious cabin. We had beds. We had our own toilets and showers, a bathroom in this lovely, this lovely cabin. Anyhow, we went in there and started to unload our our kitbags et cetera and a door opened and in comes Captain Reynolds. Our captain. He said, ‘Oh, you two chaps,’ he said, ‘Repack your goods.’ He said, ‘I’m taking over this cabin.’ So —
JH: It sounded too good to be true in other words.
AB: Hmmn?
JH: It sounded too good to be true.
AB: True. Yeah, he was going to take over.
JH: JH: Yeah.
AB: So we talked amongst ourselves and said, ‘We don’t like the idea of that.’ I said, ‘Why does he get to do that?’ So we went up and found the, the ship’s purser and we told the purser who [pause] what had happened and he, he got upset. He said, ‘I decide where you go. You were given that that cabin.’ He said, ‘You’re going to stay in that cabin.’ And he, he over the loudspeaker he called Captain Reynolds into his office and told Captain Reynolds off and Captain Reynolds he was called along with a lot of other officers down to the bowels of the ship and we were in this lovely cabin on A deck. We were a bit fortunate there on our trip to the Middle East.
JH: So did that involve going up through the Suez Canal?
AB: Yes. We went up —
JH: Yes.
AB: Went up through the Suez Canal and then we, when we got to Port Tewfik we got off the ship and transferred to, to rail and we went by train into Palestine and at a campsite called Hill 95 not very far away from Gaza.
JH: Yes.
AB: We did more training there which was tough because it was so hot during the daytime and we had to do all these route marches all over the place. You know all over the sand and hills.
JH: In the footsteps of the Light Horse.
AB: All that lot. Yes. Like that.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And it was tough going but we as I said we had to [fatten our [unclear] stick our legs up] et cetera and build ourselves up and and then when the, it was in July 1941 they started the problem of going in and fighting the Vichy French. Clearing them out of Lebanon and Syria.
JH: Yes.
AB: And we joined that push and we stayed there up around the top of Syria near near the Turkish border around Homs and Aleppo and those places. We stayed up there until we were, we had to come back to Australia because the Japanese came into the war.
JH: Yes.
AB: And we got we left the Middle East in February and we got back to Australia in April.
JH: Was that ’42?
AB: ’42.
JH: 1942. Or ’41.
AB: Yeah. ’42 that was.
JH: ’42. Yeah.
AB: Then we trained in, went up to Queensland and trained to go to the jungles area up to Papua New Guinea and at that particular time the Air Force was interviewing people from the returned soldiers from the Middle East to ask them whether they’d like to transfer to the Air Force into aircrew.
JH: From what you said before I think you jumped at that didn’t you?
AB: Anyhow, a couple of us were down in Brisbane on leave and we found out all about this so we, we went to one of those offices where there were recruiting the people like [unclear] airmen and we were, went in and did the exams and then again to see whether we were good enough to get into the Air Force as aircrew and they knocked me back. I passed all the exams but when it came to the medical then I was, it was the doctors were checking me over and they, he said, ‘Well, we can’t take you. You’ve got a hernia.’ I said, ‘What’s a hernia?’ He said, ‘Well, you see that lump down there.’ He pointed to a lump down in the groin area. He said, ‘That’s a hernia and we could not have you flying with a hernia.’ So I said, I said, ‘How the hell am I to get into the Air Force? I want to get in, get in there in the early days.’ And so the chap said to me there, he said, ‘Well, the best thing you could do is when you get back to camp you go to the RAP.’ That’s the Regimental Aid Post, ‘Bend yourself over, clutch your groin and tell them you’re in awful pain.’ So I did a bit of good acting. I did that and they whipped me straight in to the hospital. Ipswich. At Ipswich.
JH: Ipswich. Yeah.
AB: The place there. And they operated on me and fixed me up. And when I came out of hospital I was sent down to a convalescent hospital down in Brisbane. And then once I got myself fit fit again I went down to the Air Force people again in Brisbane and I said, ‘Here I am. I haven’t got a hernia anymore.’ So they inspected me. He said, ‘Right,’ he says, ‘We’ll drag you out of the Army.’ So I went out of the Army on the 24th of November ’42 and I went to the Air Force on the 25th of November ’42. I was happy as a larry then.
JH: I bet you were.
AB: I was happy to get into the Air Force and we trained at, at Bradfield Park. That’s where I went to.
JH: Yes.
AB: We were posted to Bradfield Park. We had to do a rookie’s course, you know doing marching around the parade ground and rifle drill, you know with shoulder arms and all this sort of business. Slow arms you know. Blokes roaring out at us. Of course, we were being an ex-soldier we didn’t like this at all you know. Pretty grim. Anyway, we had to put up with it and eventually we were posted to Bradfield Park. We were there, we were already there. We were transferred across to the aircrew section and we were straightaway did our exams there. Once we passed those we then went to, they sent us to Canada and we went to a town in Canada called Edmonton which was number 2 AOS. Air Observer’s School. We, we did our training there and we, when we passed out I was fortunate enough along with four other chaps to be given a commission off course and I became a pilot officer after finishing that course. Then we went. They sent us across to England.
JH: Yes.
AB: And then again there was more training. Sextant training at an AFU, Advanced Flying Unit at Wigtown.
JH: Wigtown in Scotland.
AB: In Scotland.
JH: Yeah.
AB: That was a funny old place because we didn’t understand the people in the town and they didn’t understand us.
JH: Yeah. So, Alan when, when did you arrive in in Scotland? This would be I’m guessing the end of —
AB: Let me think.
JH: During early ’43.
AB: Yeah. It was, it was in [pause] No. ’43. No, I was still training in Canada then.
JH: Okay.
AB: Til, til we got, we got to England early ’44.
JH: Early ’44.
AB: It would be January ’44.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. And you had to run the gauntlet of the U-boats.
AB: Oh yeah.
JH: From Canada.
AB: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: To Scotland. Yeah.
AB: Yeah. They were, you know luckily we were, got through okay.
JH: Yes.
AB: By the time we got to Southampton it was a great sigh of relief that we were still around and they sent us up to, over to Brighton where we stayed for a short while. We were given our vouchers to go to, up to London to get measured up for our officer’s uniforms. And then we got posted to AFU at Wigtown in Scotland.
JH: Yes.
AB: After that we came down and went to our Operational Training Unit at Lichfield and that is where we crewed up.
JH: Yes. I’m always interested in, on how the crewing up happened.
AB: It was very surprising. We were, the whole of the intake with all these trainees and we had to go down to to a big hangar. We went in there and there were all these blokes in there. All these fellas getting around. Sergeants and pilot officers and et cetera and other blokes you know. Flight lieutenants. And we were then, we were told we had to crew up and that was a bit of a sort of sort of a thing. How are we going to do that? You know. So anyhow, a fellow came out. A pilot came across to me. Saw me standing there and he said, ‘My name’s Howard Gavin.’ He said, ‘How would you like to be my navigator?’ I looked him over and I said, ‘I certainly would.’ It turned out that he had already done his first tour of operations in the Middle East on on an Australian squadron, you know. Flying Wellingtons. And I imagined we were going to train on Wellingtons I thought well, this is a good idea. I’ll say yes. So then we went around and he went up looking for his bomb aimer and then at each bloke you know. That’s how we crewed up. It was fine.
JH: So, tell me were you looking for the badge they wore?
AB: Oh yes. The pilot. We were looking for —
JH: Yeah.
AB: We were looking to see you know if you were a navigator or whether you were —
JH: Yeah.
AB: A wireless air gunner.
JH: Yes.
AB: Or a tail gunner. A gunner.
JH: Okay. So how long did this, this process take? This crewing up.
AB: Oh, about an hour.
JH: Okay. I had the impression it kind of lasted for half a day [laughs]
AB: Oh, it didn’t take that long.
JH: Okay. Yeah.
AB: Well, my, no.
JH: Yeah.
AB: It might have happened like that for some people.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
AB: We were just a bit, a bit lucky.
JH: Yeah. So once you’d crewed up, you got your crew you then left the hangar.
AB: That’s right.
JH: To go and get a cup of coffee or something.
AB: We went.
JH: And get to know each other. Yeah.
AB: Have afternoon tea.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And you went to the, went to the mess hall of course and had a beer.
JH: Yes.
AB: And the, for our bomb aimer he couldn’t come with us because we were where the officers were and he was, he was a sergeant. So he went, he went off to the sergeant’s mess.
JH: Yes.
AB: So it was a bit, you know. A bit cruel.
JH: Yes. So, then you, then you, so you had your crew and then you were waiting to see where you were going to be posted. To which squadron.
AB: No, not then. That would be at at that place at the OTU.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And you trained there and you did your training.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And then you, in Wellingtons. Then when you finished that training course you went to the Heavy Conversion Unit.
JH: Yeah.
AB: At Winthorpe. That’s where I had all the problem with the with the aircraft. One of our final trips under the instruction of an English flying instructor.
JH: Tell me what happened.
AB: And that’s where, well we went across, this was in 24th of September, forty⸻, ’44. We were doing our, we did many trips night flying, daylight flying in the, in the Stirling and we’d been over to the coast of Holland and we came, this was actually night time.
JH: In a Stirling.
AB: In a Stirling. And we had to fly this course and eventually we, as we came back towards base in England which was at, at Winthorpe.
JH: Winthorpe.
AB: The engine started to catch on fire. So they feathered one and then another one would go out.
JH: This was over the North Sea still.
AB: Over the North Sea. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And we were proceeding along there and then the next one went. So we had one engine and the skipper, the instructor, he was a flight lieutenant he said, ‘We’re going to have to ditch.’ Well, we knew what ditching meant. It wasn’t too pleasant because the chances were pretty slim of you surviving. The North Sea’s pretty cold and you had to make sure you got out and your lifeboat pumped up. You know. They pumped them up.
JH: If you were going to ditch was the wireless operator able to give their position or were they not allowed to give your position if you were going to ditch?
AB: Well, I’d already told the skipper.
JH: Yeah.
AB: That where we were when he —
JH: Yeah.
AB: Gave the instruction and I said to him, ‘We’re not that far away from the coast of England.’
JH: Yes.
AB: ‘And I think we’ll be able to get there, be able to land, turn around and aim the plane out towards the sea.’
JH: Yes.
AB: And we were able to do it ourselves. I looked at where we were at the time. I took a fix and we were on the Gee box and you could get a very accurate fix.
JH: Yeah. Because you wouldn’t want to —
AB: He did.
JH: Want to land on a beach would you? Yeah.
AB: He took notice of what I said.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And we, he took it back over the coast. We made the coast of England. Went for a little while, a few minutes and then turned around a hundred and eighty degrees and gave the order to bale out.
JH: What height were you then?
AB: Two thousand feet.
JH: Yeah.
AB: That was where we had trouble deciding how to get out of the hatch [laughs] both the bomb aimer and myself and eventually I talked the bomb aimer into going first. Which he did do and he was unable to tumble out because of the hatch way and he went out feet first, dropped down and went facing, facing the front of the aircraft and the slipstream got him and smashed his head into the hatchway.
JH: He recovered enough to pull his rip cord.
AB: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
AB: He did do.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And then I decided because he went forward and split the front of his head open.
JH: Yeah. He went out feet first.
AB: He went out feet first.
JH: Yeah.
AB: So I decided I’m not going to get my head smashed like that when I bale. I’ll face the back of the plane to drop out.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Feet first. And of course, the slipstream got me as well and knocked me out in the back of the head. The back of my head was split open and I was unconscious until I heard a voice telling me to open the rip, pull the rip cord. The D ring. The D ring. Pull the D ring which I did do and I had the parachute opened up and I had two swings and I got laid down beautifully right into a potato patch.
JH: How high do you think you were when you, when you jumped out?
AB: About a thousand feet.
JH: Yeah, and but this voice you heard. Tell me about that.
AB: It’s, I heard this voice telling me to [pause] and later on I was, I was on leave down in Okehampton at a couple’s place, an elderly couple and she was a Medium. And we decided to be entertained by joining in the using you know the glass for the table.
JH: A séance. Yeah.
AB: A, yeah.
JH: Yeah.
AB: They were playing around with that glass on the table which was incredible. You could feel the electricity current there. It was a very strange feeling. Powerful it was. And we were sending messages and then we sent a message to ask my grandfather whether he was around. And eventually we had, a couple of days later we had a séance where she went into a trance and when she went into the trance she changed her position. She she spread her legs like that, put her hands on her knees like that and that’s how my grandfather always sat and I asked him to speak. I wanted to talk to him.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And he told me that he was with me a short while ago when I got out of the aircraft. Now, they didn’t know that. They had no knowledge of anything of that nature of what happened.
JH: Yeah. Was she speaking in his voice?
AB: She changed her voice. She changed her voice into a different tone tone altogether. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah, she she sort of changed her voice into a man’s voice.
JH: Yes. Yeah. So it, yeah so it was his voice you heard.
AB: Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing.
JH: Yeah.
AB: That was incredible.
JH: I bet you’ve thought about that a lot.
AB: I have.
JH: Yeah.
AB: I did. I’ve told a lot of people about it too.
JH: Yes.
AB: Whether it, whether they think I’m stupid or not I don’t know.
JH: Yeah.
AB: But I, I was I was impressed by it.
JH: I know my father he, he really believed in that. That kind of thing.
AB: Yeah.
JH: Wow. So let’s, let’s wind forward Alan. Tell me about your first operation. What was that like?
AB: The first operation. Yes. Well, we, when we finally finished with our Lancaster Finishing School we got posted to 617 Squadron.
JH: A famous squadron.
AB: That’s the one. Yeah. We were very lucky. We were the only ones posted there.
JH: Yes.
AB: And we managed to do very well in our flying. We all got high marks as I said so they sent us to this.
JH: The elite.
AB: Yeah. Sent us to this this squadron and at the time Willie Tait, JB Tait, they used to call him Willie. He was the CO.
JH: Yeah.
AB: A very famous man.
JH: Yes. Of course.
AB: He had four DSOs, two DFCs and a mention in despatches. That was his first award in, and that was when he was in a Fairey Battle. Who would want to be in one of those? Our first operation was very early in in November ’44.
JH: ’44. Yes. Got that.
AB: And it was to the, bomb the Urft Dam. The Urft, U R F T I think it was.
JH: Oh.
AB: U R F T. Urft.
JH: Yeah. Where was that located?
AB: That’s in Germany.
JH: Yeah.
AB: We were, when we got there it was ten tenths cloud. We couldn’t see the target. These, these were daylights and of course we couldn’t see the target. We weren’t allowed to drop our bomb. We had a Tallboy on board, the twelve thousand pound Tallboy and we had to bring that back to base.
JH: So you didn’t have a bouncing type bomb.
AB: No, it was a Tallboy.
JH: Yeah. Okay.
AB: A Tallboy was a terrific machine. It, it used to spin around and had tail fins on it. It would turn around and keep straight and keep keep at an angle you know when it left the aircraft and go, it was a concrete piercing bomb. It would go through the concrete and then explode as it got through. It was a brilliant bomb designed by Barnes Wallis.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And so then we went back and did the Urft Dam again. Again it was ten tenths cloud. So we weren’t too happy because we hadn’t had to drop that bomb. Had to bring it back again.
JH: So you —
AB: And no.
JH: Could you still log it as an operation even though —
AB: Oh yes. Yes.
JH: Yes. It did count. Yeah.
AB: It counted.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
AB: Each time you took off and made the trip it would be counted. Yeah.
JH: And let me ask how many aircraft in that operation?
AB: We had about twenty two.
JH: Twenty two. Yeah. Any support?
AB: No.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Just on our own.
JH: Yeah.
AB: We never had any support.
JH: Yeah.
AB: 617 was, sometimes you’d fly with 9 Squadron.
JH: Yeah.
AB: That would have made a bigger target but a few times they went with a bit, we went after the Tirpitz. 9 going with 617 up there.
JH: Did they link up with the Pathfinders on that sort of raid?
AB: We never had Pathfinders.
JH: Yeah.
AB: We were we were our own Pathfinders.
JH: Yeah.
AB: We didn’t need, didn’t have them.
JH: Yeah.
AB: A Pathfinder.
JH: So did you go back a third time?
AB: No.
JH: Yeah.
AB: They decided that they wouldn’t waste our time.
JH: Okay. What about your next operation?
AB: Oh dear.
JH: Can you remember that?
AB: No. Oh.
JH: That would have been a bombing. Another bombing run.
AB: Yeah. Where yes ah that’s right. We went to Ijmuiden.
JH: Oh.
AB: In Holland.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Ijmuiden. And we, we attacked E-boat pens and submarine pens there.
JH: God. Successful?
AB: Yes. Very.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah. Oh, the bombs were good.
JH: Yeah.
AB: They went through the concrete supports.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And blew up inside you know.
JH: Yeah.
AB: But then, then we went to another one in Holland the same sort of thing. Poortershaven.
JH: Poortershaven.
JH: Poortershaven.
AB: In Holland. Yeah.
AB: Another one.
JH: Another, another port. Yeah.
AB: The same sort of thing.
JH: Yeah.
AB: E-boat pens and submarine pens. Later on, many years later it was in the ‘90s I got a letter from an historian who was at, he was at Poortershaven and he he told us you know in the letter he said there had been intelligence that told them to get the Dutch out of out of the way and warned them. Get the Dutch out of the way as they were going to come over and bomb.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah. And this bloke said, and he said, ‘We commend you. Not one Dutchman got killed.’
JH: That’s amazing.
AB: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. That’s incredible attacking those pens because they were real fortresses weren’t they?
AB: Oh yeah. Yeah. They were.
JH: Yeah.
AB: We went up to Bergen as well. Before we went to Bergen they, a group of commandos, Englishmen, red beret blokes came out to our squadron and they were, they trained with us. We were going to drop them. Drop them in the fjord and they had these fabled boats and then they were supposed to be going ashore and attacking the heavy water plants. You know the heavy water plants they had built outside Bergen?
JH: Yes.
AB: The Germans had that.
JH: Yes.
AB: But they decided it was just too risky. They didn’t go ahead with that but we went up and bombed the E-boat submarine pens up there as well. The Germans had them up there as well.
JH: Was this daylight or at night time?
AB: No, we we always left at night time.
JH: Yes.
AB: To get there in the daytime.
JH: Okay.
AB: Because we had to visually sight our target.
JH: Well, you were flying up the fjords I guess towards the target.
AB: But, we, we went up to Lossiemouth to refuel up there.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And then we went off to, flew out to Bergen. We flew just above the deck low flying to get under the radar.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And we then when we got up near Bergen we made height and dropped our bombs on the E-boat —
JH: Yeah.
AB: And submarine pens up there.
JH: By then it was morning. You could see.
AB: Oh yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
AB: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah. You always, you were trying to get to your target in daylight.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah, because you had to sight your target and take your photographs.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And if you, if you, if you didn’t drop your bombs where you should do you when you, it meant that when you the next day or when you got back you’d be up doing practice bombing in the Wash.
JH: Yeah. Good incentive.
AB: Hmmn?
JH: Good incentive to be on target.
AB: Yeah, oh yes.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Good. They were very [pause] and we we we did another one which was quite interesting.
JH: Yes.
AB: Berchtesgaden.
JH: I know that place. I’ve been there.
AB: Been there. Yeah. I know, I’ve been there too. I’ve been there on the ground as well. The, that was on ANZAC Day ’45 and our target was the the big shaft. The air shaft.
JH: Yes. Where the lift is going up.
AB: There wasn’t any lift then. That’s where they put it. And we would put our bomb down that shaft. Well, we flew around that for about twenty five minutes and could not find the shaft. And later on, years later when I went to Berchtesgaden.
JH: Yeah.
AB: I walked up beyond the, out to go up in the lift.
JH: You go up in the lift.
AB: Yeah.
JH: And then you can walk.
AB: And then I walked —
JH: Yeah.
AB: Up the hill a bit. Up the mountain.
JH: Yes.
AB: Looked back on where it was all snowy. All snow. And I said no wonder we couldn’t see it because they had, they had camouflage nets and a cover over the top of the shaft. That’s why we couldn’t find it. So we had to bring our bomb back to England again.
JH: Yeah.
AB: On that occasion.
JH: Yes.
AB: That was the last operation that that was done by 617 in Europe.
JH: That was the last. I believe that was the last Bomber Command operation in the second world war. I’m not too quite sure but that may be so. I read that somewhere.
AB: We led, we led, 617 Squadron led a big main force group. Main force. And about four hundred planes came after us. We had the honour of being the first there to⸻
JH: To Berchtesgaden. Yeah.
AB: Different crews had different targets and they were all targeting where these Nazis had their, a resource they used to go down on.
JH: Yeah.
AB: To spend leave in. Yeah. And then main force followed after we we got there and dropped a few more bombs.
JH: Yeah.
AB: On Berchtesgaden. It’s a beautiful town. But later on when I went and saw it.
JH: Yes.
AB: In 1980 it was, you wouldn’t have known it had been, it had been bombed at all.
JH: Yes.
AB: That was happening all around you. I went back to different places where we, where the place had been bombed heavily and they’d reconstructed it so good.
JH: Yes.
AB: Amazing. They did did a remarkable job of reconstructing.
JH: I was there maybe four years ago and I noticed there was absolutely no Nazi insignia anywhere. Even when they were carved in stone. It’s all been removed.
AB: it’s been removed.
JH: Yes.
AB: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Okay. Well, last operation. So what happened then? You stayed on in the UK.
AB: What they were doing then the Australian, the RAAF people over there decided they would send a squadron out to Okinawa to bomb Japan. So myself and a couple of other members of our crew volunteered to go, to go out to to Okinawa and the squadron was 467 Squadron and that was, that was located in in Metheringham. And that was an enormous contrast to our location in Woodhall Spa while we were on 617 Squadron. The officer’s mess was the magnificent Petwood Hotel.
JH: I’ve been there. The Guy Gibson Bar.
AB: Yeah. That’s right.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah, that was, we were upstairs. Our quarters were upstairs and they had a not not far from the bar was a billiard room. Is that still there?
JH: I’m not quite sure.
AB: They had a billiard room and my wireless operator and myself we were we didn’t drink but we played snooker in there in our spare time between when we went flying.
JH: Yes.
AB: The rest of the crew would get on at the grog but we, being teetotallers we we played snooker all the time and we got quite good at it actually.
JH: And you cleaned them up.
AB: You see when we got there we got good. Yeah. I took to it quite well.
JH: What a lovely place that is.
AB: It’s a beautiful spot isn’t it?
JH: Yeah.
AB: Yeah. They were I’ve got pictures of it on the computer.
JH: I’d like to go back there.
AB: When I went back to England in ’91 and did did a tour of England. Hired a car and drove all over England and Scotland and Wales. I did not go back to Woodhall Spa. I don’t know why I didn’t go back to show Marie, my wife.
JH: You didn’t want to go back or —
AB: I just for some reason or other it didn’t occur to me.
JH: Yeah.
AB: To go back and have a look at it. I can remember it quite clearly. I remember where we slept and who was in the room with us. We had, there were six of us. Six of us in a very big big room. It had a big balcony and there was a couple of blokes slept out on the balcony. It had a roof over it of course. And there were my pilot and myself and there were four English. Well, English men there.
JH: So, so in your crew in 617 how many Australians in the crew?
AB: Six.
JH: Six. One English.
AB: And one English.
JH: Yeah.
AB: An English flight engineer.
JH: Now, Alan so did you get to Japan in the end?
AB: Ah now.
JH: Yes, sorry.
AB: We we we again trained heavily.
JH: Yeah.
AB: On 467 Squadron and incidentally we were quartered in Nissen huts which was quite a contrast [laughs] to the Petwood Hotel. We didn’t have any, didn’t have any priority about good quarters whether you were an officer or not. We were and we had our final embarkation leave and they dropped the atom bomb on Hiroshima. Then they dropped the next one on Nagasaki. We were, then we were stood down and that was, that’s what was in, that was in —
JH: That was a shock for you.
AB: That was in August I think.
JH: Just as well you weren’t over in that area.
AB: Well, in a way yes because probably might not have been here to tell the tale. It was, it was quite in a way we were a little bit sad but then also overjoyed.
JH: Yes.
AB: You know, we were sort of really keen to go and do something to those Japs.
JH: Yeah.
AB: We’d been reading and hearing a lot about what the Japs were doing.
JH: But that meant starting about going home.
AB: Yeah. Well, we left. We came home on the Athlone Castle and we got home around about February ’46. During the war when I came out of the Middle East I got married. I married my sweetheart and, and while I was away in Canada she gave birth to a son. [unclear] it was quite a, I didn’t realise at the time that when I got married that I was going to have a son.
JH: Yes.
AB: While the war was still on.
JH: When you were in [pause] when you were in Canada.
AB: I was in Canada. Yeah.
JH: Yes.
AB: Edmonton. That was on the 3rd of November ’43.
JH: So you hadn’t seen much of him at all.
AB: Hadn’t seen him at all until he was, until February ’46.
JH: Yes.
AB: He didn’t know who I was.
JH: Gosh. Yeah.
AB: I was a stranger. Took a while to get for him to know who I was, you know.
JH: Yes.
AB: Took a long long while.
JH: Yes.
AB: It was a real bad period really.
JH: Yeah.
AB: I I used to get quite annoyed about it, you know.
JH: Yes.
AB: He’d go to his grandfather all the time.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
AB: He wouldn’t come near me.
JH: Yes.
AB: Yeah. But anyhow after the war the war ended we ended up having another three children. Another son in 1948. Then a daughter in ’49.
JH: Yes.
AB: And then another daughter in ’52. So we had —
JH: Four in the family.
AB: Four in the family.
JH: Yeah.
AB: Two boys and two girls and one of the boys is, both boys, the eldest boy when he was about nineteen he joined the the Army.
JH: Yeah.
AB: And he did twenty one years in the Army. He was in Malaya, Borneo and Vietnam and he was, the youngest boy when he turned, I don’t know what it was he had his name pulled out the barrel to go to Vietnam. They had a —
JH: Yes, I know.
AB: Birthday barrel.
JH: Yes.
AB: Yeah. He went to Vietnam and unfortunately he he passed away when he was sixty three. He had cancer.
JH: Oh.
AB: Caused by his term in Vietnam. The Agent Orange. The Yanks dropped all this.
JH: Yes, I know.
AB: You know, Agent Orange and he he eventually he got this cancer and passed away in 2011. And the other boy and he was actually in the infantry. A young fella.
JH: Yes.
AB: The eldest boy had been in there for twenty one years. He was in the signals. So quite a bit of difference. He was mainly around the base area.
JH: Yes. So he wasn’t exposed.
AB: He wasn’t exposed.
JH: To the Agent Orange. Yeah.
AB: He wasn’t exposed as much as his brother was.
JH: Yeah. Well, that’s amazing that this you’ve got three generations in your family in the Army.
AB: Yes. Dad. Dad in both wars. The two boys. My sisters. Both sisters in the Women’s Army. Both my sisters.
JH: The Buxton’s have done their bit. More than done their bit, Alan.
AB: We’ve had a lot of experience in the Services. Yeah.
JH: You must be very proud of them all. Yeah.
AB: Very much so.
JH: Yeah. Yes. And you were telling me before eventually you found your feet career wise and joined Shell.
AB: That’s right and I worked there.
JH: And was that in Sydney or did you have to go —
AB: No. Sydney.
JH: To Melbourne.
AB: I was in the head, in the Sydney office. And then when they decided to build, or enlarge the refinery that John Fell owned in the Clyde. Clyde Refinery —
JH: Yes.
AB: I was transferred out to Clyde Refinery in ‘19⸻ I moved up. I was living at Narrabeen at the time.
JH: Yes.
AB: And I moved up to Eastwick and I got a transfer, a company transfer which was good.
JH: Were you with Shell all your, all your working career.
AB: No, before, before the war I was with Australian [Soaps] for a living.
JH: Yes. Okay.
AB: We can still see it’s Alexandria.
JH: Alexandria. Yes. You see, I know Alexandria well. Yeah.
AB: Well, I was with them until [laughs] and I was I was actually had the honour of being the first bloke to join the Services and when, when I was going out the gate the managing director Mr Harrison, a lovely old Scotsman he came out to me and he handed me an envelope. He said and wished me good luck and when I opened that envelope up he’d given me a ten pound note. I mean I was only getting one pound seventeen and sixpence a week and I ended up with a ten pound note. I thought I was made [laughs] Ten pound.
AB: It would have seemed like the lottery. Yeah.
JH: At the time because when, you know.
AB: Yeah.
JH: My pay was six pence a week.
AB: What a gesture.
JH: Hmmn?
AB: What a gesture.
JH: Oh, I thought it was wonderful. Yeah.
AB: Yeah. Have you still got the ten pound note?
JH: No.
AB: Okay [laughs]
JH: I spent that.
AB: Of course.
JH: I needed it. I didn’t have any —
JH: Yeah.
AB: Any money. Any money much in those days.
JH: Yeah. Well, Alan I can’t get over this interview. It’s really amazing. It’s quite a story. I need to have a lie down, a cup of tea and digest it all.
AB: Do you want a cup of tea now?
JH: Oh, now that sounds a great idea. I didn’t say that [laughs]
AB: Oh, I’ll see what I can.
JH: But yeah, I wouldn’t mind a cup.
AB: I’ll see if I can —
JH: So shall we, shall we wind it up and —
AB: Okay. Go on.
JH: So, I really would like to thank you for, for doing the interview. So, this is for the IBCC.
AB: Yeah.
JH: Veterans Interview Project and I think that that so that interview your your family can, can go in and listen to it or if anyone visits Lincolnshire they can go and listen to it.
AB: Oh right.
JH: The Bomber Command Centre there is quite something. I was there at the opening. And so Alan thanks very much.
AB: I get the information. You know these lads that found the plane, Stuart [McRory] and his brother Bruce on the work that has been done to restoring the Lancaster Just Jane.
JH: Yes.
AB: You know.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
JH: I’ve seen it.
AB: You’ve seen it.
JH: Yeah.
AB: They’re doing that restoration. It’s going on. It’s been going for years with this restoration.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
AB: They use it. Normally it’s only used for taxi runs.
JH: Yes.
AB: Stuart, Stuart and his brother Bruce they’ve done the taxi ride. They charge fifty pounds to do the taxi ride up and down the runway.
JH: Fantastic. Yeah.
AB: Yeah. And —
JH: Well, on that note Alan I’m going to wind up here. Thanks very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alan George Buxton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Horsburgh
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-08-23
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:06:36 Audio Recording
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABuxtonAG220823
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943-11-03
1944-01
1944-09-24
1944-11
1945-04-25
1946-02
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Norway
Queensland
Alberta--Edmonton
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Norway--Bergen
Queensland--Brisbane
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Alan was born in Parramatta, Sydney, in Australia. After going to the Middle East with the army, he returned to Australia, when Japan entered the war, and transferred to the RAF in November 1942.
Alan was posted to Bradfield Park for training and then to No. 2 Air Observers’ School in Edmonton, Canada. He was given a commission as a pilot officer and went to the Advanced Flying Unit at RAF Wigtown in Scotland, followed by the Operational Training Unit at RAF Lichfield. Alan describes the process of crewing up. He trained on Wellingtons and then went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe. Alan describes the night they had to parachute from their Stirling after a trip to the coast of Holland.
After Lancaster Finishing School, Alan was posted to 617 Squadron where the Commanding Officer was J B “Willie” Tait. His first operation in November 1944 was to bomb the Urft Dam in Germany but it was too cloudy to release the 12,000 lb Tallboy bomb on board. A second attempt was also unsuccessful. Alan then refers to two operations in the Netherlands where U-boat pens were bombed. Bergen was another operation. On 25 April 1945, their target was Berchtesgaden, their last operation leading a Main Force Group of 400 aircraft.
Alan then went to 467 Squadron at RAF Metheringham. After the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were no longer required to go to Okanawa. Alan returned to Australia in February 1946 and joined Shell company in Sidney.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
467 Squadron
617 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
bale out
bombing
crewing up
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
mess
military living conditions
navigator
observer
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lichfield
RAF Metheringham
RAF Wigtown
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
Stirling
submarine
superstition
Tallboy
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1376/24339/NBurkeJC170308-06.2.jpg
c35d571d62143cb8d05b5f239bab25c0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ford, Terry
Ford, T
Description
An account of the resource
135 items. The collection concerns Terry Ford. He flew operations as a pilot with 75 Squadron. It contains photographs, his log book, operational maps, letters home during training, and documents including emergency drills. There are two albums of photographs, one of navigation logs, and another of target photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Julia Burke and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ford, T
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
In the Ceaseless Fight Against the U-Boat
Description
An account of the resource
An Anson flying above a convoy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-05-29
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NBurkeJC170308-06
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-29
Anson
submarine
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1367/23028/PThomasAF20040030.2.jpg
756b7088f0b7732ca5c39e3207e4a031
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thomas, Arthur Froude. Album 3
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Thomas, AF
Description
An account of the resource
49 Items. An album containing 35 and 149 Squadron target photographs and pictures taken on a sightseeing tour over German cities to see bomb damage.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
23/4/1945. Heligoland.
[missing letter]n aerial photograph of Heligoland [missing letter]aken after bombing raids in April 1945. The photo shows German Naval installations (U-boat pens) and a [missing letter]urnt out underground oil storage. [missing letter]asses of bomb craters are shown [missing letter]ith the larger being caused by 4000lb bombs.
Heligoland was also bombed very [missing letter]eavily after the end of the war, after all German troops had been evacuated. There were no civilians living on the island during the war.
[photograph]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Heligoland
Description
An account of the resource
An annotated vertical aerial photograph of naval facilities at Heligoland. U boat pens and a burnt out oil storage facility are marked.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-04-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PThomasAF20040030
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Helgoland
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Steve Baldwin
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Workflow A completed
aerial photograph
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
reconnaissance photograph
submarine
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/247/7455/PDorricottLW15090102.1.jpg
a6fe6533a94a31bee3a0432af904c930
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dorricott, Leonard William
Leonard Dorricott
Len Dorricott
L W Dorricott
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. An oral history interview with Rosemary Dorricott about her husband Flying Officer Leonard William Dorricott DFM (1923-2014, 1230753, 1230708 Royal Air Force). Leonard Dorricott was a navigator with 460 and 576 Squadrons. He flew 34 operations including Operation Manna, Dodge and Exodus. He was one of the crew who flew in Lancaster AR-G -George, now preserved in the Australian War Memorial. He was a keen amateur photographer and the collection contains his photographs, logbook and papers. It also contains A Dorricott’s First World War Diary, and photographs of Leonard Dorricott’s log book being reunited with the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Dorricott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
2015-11-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dorricott, LW
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
APRIL 28, 1942 Page 5
Left to right: Flight-Lieutenant D. J. Penham, D.S.O., D.F.C., Sergeant D. N. Huntly, D.F.M., Pilot - Officer D. O. Sands, D.F.C., Flight-Lieut. B. R. W. Hallows, D.F.C., and Sergeant R. P. Irons, D.F.M. With them is the Minister of Information.
[inserted]a large oval photograph[/inserted]
Squadron-Leader J. D. Nettleton, the leader of one formation of bombers, has been awarded the V.C. One by one the aircraft of his formation were shot down until only his own remained.[symbol] image of a finger pointing to the photo [/symbol]
‘HEDGE-HOP’ MEN HONOURED AND VC for the leader[sic]
LEADER of the “hedge-hopping” bombers which raided Augsburg in daylight on April 17, Squadron-Leader John D. Nettleton,.has been awarded the V.C.
Other honours awarded to the returned crews included one D.S.O., eight D.F.C.s and ten D.F.M.s.
Nettleton, of No. 44 (Rhodesia) Squadron, displayed “the most conspicuous bravery,” the official citation stated. The enterprise was daring, the target - the M.A.N. U-boat engine factory - of high military importance.
Nettleton led is of the twelve Lancaster Bombers which made the raid. Soon after crossing into enemy territory they were attacked by twenty-five to thirty fighters
{underlined]Point-Blank Fire[/underlined]
In the running battle which followed Nettleton saw four of his six bombers shot down. His own rear guns went out of action - but, almost defenceless, he held to his course, the other remaining Lancaster following.
Flying mostly at only 50ft. above the ground the two bombers reached Augsburg and skimmed the roofs towards the target.
They were fired at from point-blank range, but their bombs hit the factory.
Then Nettleton saw the other Lancaster burst into flames and crash-land.
His own aircraft, now riddled with holes, he got safely home - the only one of the six to return.
Altogether eight of the original twelve Lancasters bombed the target. Only five returned.
Telling his story of the raid yesterday, Nettleton referred to the lost aircraft [missing]
[underlined]”Worth While”[/underlined]
“Families of the splendid chaps in them,” he said, “may ask, ‘Was the raid worth the loss? The answer is ‘Absolutely.’
Nettleton, 25, a Rhodesian, is an admiral’s[sic] grandson. He trained for a sea career, spent eighteen months in the Merchant Service, and then went into civil engineering. He entered the RAF in 1934, and has bombed Berlin and Essen
[underlined]Other Awards{/underlined]
The following officers and airmen who participated, in various capacities, as members of the aircraft crews, displayed courage, fortitude and skill of the highest order:-
D.S.O. - Flight-Lieutenant David Jackson Penman, D.F.C.
D.F.C. - Flight-Lieutenant Brian Roger Wakefield Hallows, Acting Flight-Lieutenant Charles Curtis Granmer McClure, Acting Flying-Officer Ernest Edward Rodley, Pilot-Officer Ernest Alfred Deverill, D.F.M., Pilot-Officer Gilbert Campbell Hooey, Pilot-Officer Edward Lister Ifould, Pilot-Officer Desmond Ossiter Sands.
D.F.M. - Flight-Sergeant Frank Howe Harrison, Flight-Sergeant Brian Gordon Louch, Flight-Sergeant Leonard Henry Mutter, Sergeant Charles Fleming Churchill, Sergeant Thomas Henry Goacher, Sergeant Donald Norman Huntly, Sergeant Ronald Percy Irons, Sergeant Kenneth Oswald Mackay, Sergeant Douglas Leonard Overton, Sergeant John Thomas Ratcliffe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hedge-hop men honoured and VC for the leader
Description
An account of the resource
Details about the operation on the MAN u-boat engine factory in Augsburg and the decorations awarded to the crew members.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-04-28
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDorricottLW15090102
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Augsburg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-04-17
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jon-Paul Jones
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Dorricott, Leonard William. Folder PDorricottLW1509
44 Squadron
bombing
Bombing of Augsburg (17 April 1942)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Lancaster
submarine
Victoria Cross
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/370/6088/MGomersalO139719-160530-04.1.jpg
34aa71dbbab136929f32cde6acd52adc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gomersal, Oliver.
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Oliver Gomersal (b. 1921, 1433231, 139719 Royal Air Force), a memoir, accounts of operations, a list of postings, his logbook and two photographs. Oliver Gomersal was navigator with 621 Squadron stationed in East Africa and Aden. On 2 May 1944 his Wellington successfully attacked a German submarine, U852.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Oliver Gomersal and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gomersal, O
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] 14 [/inserted]
[underlined] U 852. [/underlined]
TYPE: IX D2
BUILDERS: Deschimag, AG Weser (Bremen).
BUILDER’S NUMBER: 1058.
LAUNCHED: 28.01.1943.
COMMISSIONED: 15.06.1943.
TRAINING FLOTILLA: 04.U-F1. Stettin. 06.1943 – 01.1944.
FRONT FLOTILLA: 12.U-F1. Bordeaux. 02.1944 – 05.1944.
COMMANDING OFFICER: KL Heinz-Wilhelm Eck. 06.1943 – 05.1944.
FATE: 03.05.1943. Depth Charged RAF aircraft (8 & 621 Sqns (squadrons)). Driven ashore & scuttled. SE of Socotra 09.32N/50.59E.
SURVIVORS: c45. 7 killed.
[underlined] ECK. Heinz-Wilhelm. [/underlined]
27.03.1916. Born in Hamburg.
.1934. Joined the German Navy (Reichsmarine).
01.12.1941. Kapitänleutnant (Lieut. Comdr). (Lieutenant Commander). 7th in year.
09.1939 – 02.1941. Attached to the 6th Minesweeping Flotilla.
03.1941 – 06.1942. Attached to the 8th Minesweeping Flotilla.
06.1942 – 10.1942. U boat training.
10.1942 – 05.1943. Attached to the 2.U-F1, 2.U.A.A. & 24.U-F1.
05.1943 – 06.1943. Overseeing the final construction of U 852.
06.1943 – 05.1944 – U 852 Commander.
05.1944 – 11.1945. Prisoner of War.
[missing word] 11.1945. Courts-Martial for the killing of survivors from the PELEUS found guilty & shot by firing squad.
[underlined] Vessels Sunk by U 852. [/underlined]
13/03/1944. Greek PELEUS 4,695 GRT. Sunk in position: 02. S/10. W. German grid position FF ????
01.04.1944. British DAHOMIAN 5,277 GRT. Sunk in position: 34.25S/18.19E. German grid position
GR 5699.
[underlined] Note. [/underlined]
Although KL Eck was convicted at his Courts-Martial it seems strange that after sinking the DAHOMIAN he didn’t kill any survivors. Might I suggest some further research to clarify the position? It was not known in 1945 that U 852 has sunk the DAHOMIAN.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
German submarine U852
Description
An account of the resource
Service history of U852 depth-charged by Royal Air Force aircraft of 8 and 621 Squadron, driven ashore and scuttled south east of Socotra. History of Heinz-Wilhelm Ech, the captain, and records vessels sunk by the submarine.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MGomersalO139719-160530-04
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Yemen (Republic)--Socotra
Yemen (Republic)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Wehrmacht. Kriegsmarine
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Lesley Wain
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten document
621 Squadron
8 Squadron
submarine
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/371/6128/SCavalierRG1264567v10012.2.pdf
9f6fec394d9df4f4e057eeaadde39311
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
This document mimics recruitment material seeking volunteers for the U-Boat service. It is in interactive form and shows a seaman dropping into a watery grave. It quotes the average life expectancy of U-Boat crew as 62 days.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cavalier, Reginald George. Album two
Description
An account of the resource
35 items. The album contains service material, Christmas cards, and propaganda leaflets in German, French and English.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-10
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cavalier, RG
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Freiwillige vor für die U-boot-waffe!
Description
An account of the resource
Propaganda leaflet aimed at German-speaking population.
This document mimics recruitment material seeking volunteers for the U-Boat service. It is in interactive form and shows a seaman dropping into a watery grave. It quotes the average life expectancy of U-Boat crew as 62 days.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Printed card pull through
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Artwork
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SCavalierRG1264567v10012
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Wehrmacht
Wehrmacht. Kriegsmarine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Other languages than English
propaganda
submarine