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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/ADelCortoD170926.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Del Corto, Delia
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Delia Del Corto who recollects her wartime experiences in Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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DelCorto, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FC: Allora, questa intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistato è Delia Del Corto. L’intervistatrice è Francesca Campani. Siamo a Viareggio, è il 26 Settembre 2017. Assiste all’intervista Elena Lencioni. Ok, grazie, grazie per quest’intervista, possiamo cominciare, no. Allora, come le stavo accennando prima, mi piacerebbe partire da tipo, quando è nata, dove è nata, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, prima della guerra, prima di iniziare a parlare della guerra. Se aveva fratelli, sorelle, tutto quanto.
DDC: Allora, io sono nata l’1.11.32.
FC: OK.
DDC: Allora, la famiglia era una famiglia grande perchè eravamo sei figli, il papà e la mamma, il nonno e la nonna, dieci persone. Avevamo la nostra casa, grazie a Dio, avevamo il nostro terreno, avevamo insomma, ecco. Il papà e il nonno erano falegnami, avevano una falegnameria. Poi c’avevo un fratello che faceva il verniciatore, poi ce n’avevo un altro [laughs], un altro invece che, come si può dire, era con lo zio Aldo quando era a lavorare ne, io non lo so come ci si chiamava insomma
EL: Ma, era un operaio.
DDC: Ma lavorava in, no, in un, come un ristorante o roba del genere. Ora non me lo ricordo bene,
EL: Sì, ah ok.
DDC: Non me lo ricordo bene però tra un altro e l’altro voglio dire, poi c’era lo zio Luigi che invece lui faceva il, era, avevano tutti qualcosa, lo zio Aldo faceva, ehm, come si dice
EL: Lavorava in un albergo.
DDC: Lavorava in un albergo però poteva fare anche l’imbianchino, poteva fare tante cose, fra l’altro, sono tante, infatti voglio dire, se mi concedeva di farmi un, così una panoramica e poi mi diceva magari ora facciamo sì ma insomma potevo. Dimmi qualcosa.
FC: Va benissimo così, va benissimo, noi, qualsiasi cosa si ricorda va bene. Non c’è problema.
EL: Ma dove, dove stavate voi?
FC: Esatto.
DDC: Si stava a Montemagno,
FC: OK.
DDC: Comune di Camaiore, il paesino Montemagno, lo sa no dov’è? Si abitava un pochino sopra così sopra il paese ma di poco, in cinque minuti s’arrivava e avevamo del terreno giù in paese, e avevamo tanto del terreno, c’era uliveto, c’era bosco, c’erano le vigne, c’era un popò di tutto ecco. Adesso ora io non so che posso di raccontarvi ecco. E in
FC: Sì, no, no, vada avanti pure.
DDC: Vuole sapere in tempo di guerra quello che
FC: Sì, sì. Va bene. Quello che si ricorda.
DDC: Eh, ma io non so quello che era tempo
FC: Lei si ricorda quando è iniziata la guerra?
DDC: Ero ragazzina, ora non so dire proprio il giorno preciso ma insomma che era scoppiata questa guerra e tutto quanto, anche nel paese voglio dire se ne parlava, poi ci fu da uscire di lì, andare, si portarono, c’avevamo le pecore, allora avevamo tutto il bestiame, c’erano le mucche perché nel paese così c’era, avevamo un pochino di tutto ecco, i nostri. E si portarono le pecore sopra Gombitelli, a, spetta come si chiama, al Ferrandino. Al Ferrandino, era proprio al tempo della guerra quella lì eh. Io ero ragazzina e lassù c’era andata la mia sorella più grande, insieme c’aveva portato il mi papà perché? Perché gli uomini, guai, erano sempre cercati lì, cosa [unclear], i tedeschi e allora andavano a dormire nel bosco lì per lì, per non farsi trovare e tutto quanto. Poi era una vita troppo difficoltosa. Ci si fece a attraversare la strada maestra perché lassù da dove si abita noi per andare a Gombitelli c’è da, c’è da scendere dalla casa dove abitiamo, c’è da scendere in paese e giù c’è la strada che fa Camaiore, che fa Valpromaro, che va a Lucca che va, ecco c’è la strada. Abbiamo attraversato la strada lì, siamo saliti su per il bosco, siamo andati, quando, no a Gombitelli, più su del Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, c’abbiamo portato le pecore perché? Perché in quel momento lì i tedeschi prendevino le mucche, prendevino le pecore, facevino d’ogni ben di dio, quel che gli veniva in mente. Allora per evitare, noi le nostre bestine, le nostre cose, insomma, abbiamo, le abbiamo portate lassù. Lassù ce le hann date alla zia Liliana, c’aveva portato il nonno Alberto, e io non ricordo più dello zio Virgilio perché se era andato lassù anche lui, se c’era andato non lo ricordo a dir la verità, a dir la verità. E io avevo diec’anni, avevo diec’anni e la nonna Ancilla era in stato interessante della zia Raffaella. Allora si partiva una volta per settimana, si faceva il pane in casa, casalingo perché lassù al nostro paese c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo tutto, si faceva il pane. E poi, dopo con quelle borse grandi, lunghe così si portava tutto, il pane alla sua, alla zia Liliana insomma, si portava lassù sopra Gombitelli. E io cercavo di aiutarli come meglio potevo ma ero una ragazzina, voglio dire, un po’ più mingherlina, insomma vabbè facevo del mio meglio. E ora che
EL: C’erano anche partigiani.
DDC: E c’erano anche partigiani, sì. E una volta, allora, la posso raccontare, quel discorso del partigiano che ci fu un incontro tra cosi e il partigiano fu ferito?
EL: Certo.
FC: Certo.
DDC: Eh, non so quel che vuole sapere [unclear].
FC: Queste cose qua.
DDC: Ecco. Allora in quel momento lì c’erino partigiani e c’erano i tedeschi, ora non ricordo la precisione dove erano questi tedeschi. Ci fu un incontro e s’incominciarono a tirare col cannone le cose con le mitragliatrici insomma e ci fu anche, ferirono un partigiano. Ferirono un partigiano, era lassù sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino anche lui, questo ragazzo. Allora non si sapeva come, non si sapeva, io ero ragazzina ma lo ricordo il discorso lì. E mi si diede, noi un lenzuolo fatto sul telaio, di quella tela grossa, la inchiodarono su du cosi, du
EL: Due assi. Assi.
DDC: Du assi inchiodarono questo coso, ci misero dentro questo coso ferito, questo ragazzo ferito e poi quattro donne di lassù, perché le stanghe del coso d’avertici nel mezzo l’ammalato erano due. Allora una donna di qui una donna di là, una di qui, una di là, quattro ragazze di lassù dal Ferrandino hanno portato questo povero ragazzo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Per la strada, siccome c’era dei posti di blocco, no? Allora questi tedeschi fermavano, ‘te, dove andare?’, facevano questo discorso qui, no. Allora questi ragazzi mi dicevino che non lo potevano scoprire perché questo ragazzo che era lì sulla portantina aveva un male che s’attaccava, sì, un male, come si chiama?
EL: La peste.
DDC: Come?
EL: La peste.
DDC: No, ma non era.
FC: Contagioso.
DDC: Contagioso, era un male contagioso. Digli così, loro avevino paura. E insomma, fu così che queste ragazze ce la fecero a portare questo ferito all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora però io di lì non so più nulla nel senso perché ero ragazzina, voglio dire, anche se se ne è parlato non lo ricordo. Insomma ce la fecero queste ragazze a portare questo giovanotto all’ospedale. E non c’era portantine, non c’era nulla, allora la mia sorella più grande gli diede un lenzuolo fatto da noi sul telaio che è bello robusto, lo inchiodarono su due aste lì di coso, ci misero questo ferito e quattro ragazze prese di lassù portarono questo. E per la strada c’erano i posti di blocco e mi dicevano: ‘te, dove andare?’, visto come fanno, facevano così i tedeschi e questo era coperto e mi dicevino: ‘io lo scopro però’ che aveva, non so che malattia dicevino che si raccattava, una malattia.
FC: Il tifo.
DDC: Tipo il tifo, un affare del genere. Loro avevino una paura, no, no, allora, come dì, andate via. Fatto sta che ce la fecero a portarlo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora lì cosa successe poi io non lo so perché poi, voglio dire, non si potevino sapè tutte le cose, a quell’ora lì insomma.
FC: Quindi in questo paesino c’era tanta gente che era scappata su sui monti al
DDC: Al Ferrandino?
FC: Eh.
DDC: Ora, lì dove eravamo, noi avevamo trovato, ma più che una, insomma era una casetta, na stanzina, du stanzine piccoline che accanto c’avevino perfino il bestiame. S’era trovato questo piccolo coso così, come si dice, quando si va, si cerca na casina di sfollati, quel che si può trovà, si può trovà, così.
EL: Gli altri dormivano nel bosco, no?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Altri dormivano nel bosco.
DDC: Altri dormivano nel bosco ma nel bosco io lassù, quando siamo andati lassù, non, quello non lo sapevo perché più in là c’erano partigiani insomma era, era una cosa così lassù. Allora, nel bosco io lo so bene che ci dormivano quando si abitava qui a casa nostra. A casa nostra anche il nonno Alberto ha dormito nel bosco come lo zio Virgilio e io gli andavo a portare da mangiare. Allora, ti ha sentì, gli facevo, perché lassù la casa dove abbiamo la casa noi, per andare nel bosco praticamente s’attraversa tutta la strada ma così boschiva, eh. Allora io che facevo? Avevo dieci anni no, m’ero, la mamma m’aveva fatto, la mamma era sarta, m’ero fatta fare una gonna tutta increspata, sotto la gonna io c’avevo messo i sacchettini, non so se l’ha presente il sacchetto che ci s’andava a coglier olive?
FC: No, non ce l’ho presente.
DDC: Di stoffa, eh, tipo un grembiule ma però c’ha una bocca così, fatta così, fatto così il grembiule, il sacchetto, no? Ecco. Allora sotto la gonna il sacchetto, il sacchetto col da mangiare per il papà e per il fratello, ecco. E poi sopra un altro affare che facevo visto che andà nel bosco a raccoglier pini, un cesto al braccio, insomma così e cosà. E quaggiù c’avevo la roba da portare a mi papà e mi fratello eh e allora incontravo tedeschi, ‘te dove andare?’ e io gli dicevo che era, insomma facevo capire così che raccoglievo pini perché c’avevo la cesta al braccio con pini dentro, insomma tutto quanto. Però ero una ragazzina piccina, non pensavino di, e invece andavo a portà, se m’avessero scoperto [laughs].
FC: Eh, meno male. Ma quindi il suo papà e i fratelli erano nascosti lì perché avevano paura che
DDC: Eh sì, c’erano rastrellamenti perché, faccia conto che ogni volta per settimana e anche due facevano rastrellamenti. Quelli che erino giù in paese, i tedeschi, allora venivano su e venivino a fare rastrellamenti anche dove, noi si stava sopra il paese, popoino sopra il paese così, e noi ragazzi s’andava in cima così, ora io non so come spiegarglielo perché da lassù dalla casa dove abitiamo noi si vede giù il paese, s’affacciamo così si vede il paese, e c’erano queste macchine di tedeschi, queste cose vicine alla chiesa così e noi se n’accorgieva, ci s’accorgieva quando loro partivano per fare questi rastrellamenti. Allora, che si faceva? Te va a chiamar tu papà, te va a chiamà, a bussà a la porta, andate via perché vengino i tedeschi a fare rastrellamenti. Allora si finivinu di vestì per
FC: Per strada [laughs].
DDC: Per la strada e una volta lì accanto a me e perfino un nostro parente Elia, quando, ecco, non ce la fece a scappare questo giovanotto, non ce la fece a scappare, niente i tedeschi in casa. Allora c’aveva na sorella, che aveva na bimbetta piccolina, che era nata da poco e insomma e questa sorella stava lì con loro perché il marito era militare. E lei era in camera con questa figliola, allora, si pigiavano [makes a knocking noise] ecco i tedeschi, ecco i tedeschi, via. Allora lei che fece? Lu era su in questa camera che dormiva, non ce la fece ad andar via, si mise tra una materassa e l’altra, sdraiato su, tra una materassa e l’altra, la su, le coperte che coprivano questo coso, la sorella a sedere che dava la poppata alla figliola. Entrino i tedeschi in camera e, c’era la bimba, c’era la donna che dava la poppata alla figliola e insomma, hai visto come fai, facevano loro insomma, però come dire, non c’è nessuno ve’. Il fratello l’aveva messo tra una materassa e l’altra e le c’era a sedè così che dava, come dì, questa è lì, io mi metto a sedere sopra di lui e do da poppà alla figliola. Queste son cose successe davvero.
FC: Eh no, ci credo, lo so, lo so. Quindi non erano partigiani però i suoi famigliari.
DDC: No, no, proprio partigiani di dire sono stati ne partigiani no, non erano certi per i tedeschi però neanche [laughs]
FC: Anche perché se scappavano insomma.
DDC: Ma poi mio fratello, era, voglio dire, giovanetto, mio papà aveva già una certa età, non era per esempio, ragazzi da andare anche.
EL: Ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18.
DDC: Sì, il papà, il nonno ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, vero, mi papà.
FC: Eh, va bene.
DDC: E quando ammazzarono là nella selva quei sette, n’ammazzarono sette. Una mattina si sente camminare così [stamps her feet] perché c’abbiamo proprio la casa lassù dove abbiamo la casa paterna, qui c’è la porta e lì c’è la strada che passa proprio lì davanti la strada e si sentiva [stamps her feet] camminare così. C’affacciamo sulla porta, io ero una ragazzina perché avevo paura e la mi mamma invece, lei non aveva paura di nulla, lei c’aveva sempre di vedè, da cosa no, di vedere se poteva aiutà qualcuno, era così, lei era così. S’affacciamo sulla porta e c’era sette giovanotti così camminavino uno dietro l’altro, prima un tedesco [unclear] e c’eran due tedeschi così. E signora, quando videro la mi mamma che s’affaccia sulla porta così, perché la porta è proprio sulla strada, la soglia così come lì ci fosse la strada, un sogliettina così. E la mi mamma quando li vide questi qui, allora che succede, che succede? o signora, ma loro non si poteva mica fermà a chiacchierare, la mamma n’andava dietro, o signora, ci portano ad ammazzare a Stiava. Ci portano, perché allora li fucilavano da tutte le parti, era così, e la mi mamma n’andava dietro perché loro camminavino e parlavino, ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava. Me lo dice a la mi mamma che c’ha visto? Ma e che vi posso dire, io non so chi sia la tua mamma e c’era a quell’ora degli sfollati che erano venuti via, viareggini erano venuti lassù perché facevino bombardamenti le, le cose no, e c’erino allora, tanti andavino nel paese così per, non istavino nelle città perché era più pericoloso. Ma come fa, eh signora ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava e guarda lì. E ma camminà non si poteva, non me ha fermà e la mamma dietro. Ma lei pensi, eh, la mi mamma non aveva paura di nulla. Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma? Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma che ci portino? Ma io non la conosco la mamma, tesoro, ma come faccio a dire a la tu mamma? Mi disse anche come si chiamava la su mamma ma io ora quello non me lo ricordo perché ero ragazzina, insomma. E dopo a un certo punto un pochino l’andò di dietro a questi, erano tutti in fila così, i tedeschi con quel coso puntato. Ad un certo punto la mamma si rigirò ma dopo un, sarà passato un dieci minuti, infatti furono fucilati lì vicino alla casa nostra, voglio dire. Ci siam [unclear] questa cosa le [mimics machine gun noise] queste scariche, no. Oddio, disse la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, a me piglia il freddo, erano [unclear] perché cose passate proprio da lassù, oddio oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati. Dopo così un pochino ma non so il tempo che sarà passato ritornino indietro questi tedeschi con quei fucili, però quegli altri ragazzi non c’erino più. L’hanno ammazzati, diceva la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati. Io bisogna che vadi a vedere se qualcuno avessino bisogno di noi. Queste cose le ho viste, eh!
FC: Sì, sì.
DDC: Allora, la mi mamma si parte, si fece allontanare questi tedeschi perché stavino dal Bellotti ora te lo sai voglio dì, insomma quando si furono allontanati la mia mamma disse io ciò d’andà a vedè sti ragazzi com’è il discorso. Si parte ma per non mandarcela sola sta povera donna e io vado sempre dietro alla mamma. Quando si cammina poco distante dalla casa questi ragazzi tutti sternacchiati nella strada morti. Queste cose non si possino scordà!
FC: Eh immagino.
DDC: Non si possino scordare queste cose qui.
FC: E questi tedeschi non dicevano niente?
DDC: I, no, no, c’hanno anche, non li si poteva dir nulla perché guai, voglio dire. Non ci venivino mica a raccontà le cose a noi. Guai che, e poi, non avendo mai trovati gli uomini lì nelle nostre case perché eravamo in sette famiglie. Gli uomini non ce li avevino mai trovati perché chi dormiva nel bosco, chi dopo, noi siam dopo sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino erano cioè erano andati vai perché lì nel paese lì vicino a Ricetro c’era il terreno, tedeschi anche lì c’erino proprio a dove c’è la villa lì a Ricetro, c’erino, l’avevimo da tutte le parti.
EL: Avevano messo anche un cartello, no, i tedeschi, con scritto che eravate partigiani.
DDC: Sì, qui tutti partigiani, tutti partigiani. Di stare attenti, qui c’era, no, ma ne avevino messo quattro, cinque di questi cosi, che erimo partigiani e c’era da stà, come si faceva? E’ così.
EL: E quello che venne in casa a chiedere il pane invece?
DDC: Allora, si faceva il pane, la mamma faceva il pane in casa, fatto così da noi no. C’abbiamo il forno.
FC: Che pane era?
DDC: Il pane bono, il pane casalingo.
FC: Bianco o nero?
DDC: No, bianco, no, non si faceva nero, si faceva normale voglio dire. Perché poi c’avevamo, si seminava il grano da noi voglio dire e poi a quell’ora c’era un, c’era la tessera, a quell’ora e davano un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno, a tessera alle persone, un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno. Invece c’era la possibilità, chi voleva la farina, si poteva prendere la farina. Allora a te la farina invece ne davino un pochino di, insomma a quell’ora là. Allora la mi mamma preferiva prendere la farina e poi il pane farlo da noi perché lassù alla casa paterna, accanto c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo il forno. E poi c’aveva, ci s’aveva insomma sai terreno e si seminava il grano anche da noi e un po’ il grano ce l’avevamo anche da noi. E allora si prendeva un po’ dell’uno e un po’ dell’altro e si cercava di tirare avanti e fà questo pane. Allora, il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], quel pane casalingo, lungo, grosso, no, così. Avevamo levato il pane e la mamma per farlo ghiacciare si metteva la tavola che ci si metteva poi il pane sopra quando si portava il pane al forno perché il pane, il forno, come qui c’abbiamo la casa, il forno era come lì in fondo, si camminava pochi passi, c’avevamo il forno. E niente, questa sedia, due sedie così, ci metteva la tavola e metteva il pane così e ritto come fosse, questo è il pane così e per farlo ghiacciare, prima di metterlo nell’armadio non ci si poteva mettere. A un certo punto, e noi eravamo, questi bamboretti perché c’erano altri du fratelli, c’era Franco, che ora è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è Franco che è prete voglio dì, erimo tutti in terra, io ero la più grandina, a sedè seduto su una cosa. E c’avevimo, aveva levato il pane, era là, così questo pane a ghiacciare. Entra un tedesco in casa poi si sentiva proprio quel profumo di pane casalingo, no, così, pane, pane, pane, perché, a un certo punto hann sofferto tanto anche loro eh, poverini, io quelli prima non lo so ma quelli quando li abbiamo avuti vicini lo so, poi loro c’avevino un pane nero come minimo così, brutto e cattivo, che se lo infilavi nel muro [laughs] si spaccava il muro ma il pane no. Allora, aveva fatto, aveva levato questo pane e noi eravamo, bamboretti così, eravamo io, che ero la più grandina poi altri du fratelli e poi c’era quello che ora è, Franco che è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è prete sì. Eravamo lì tutti in terra, c’era steso un panno e eravamo lì tutti in terra così a sedere e si chiacchierava così tra una cosa e l’altra, visto che si fa bamboretti insieme, anch’io voglio dire ero bamboretta perché avevo dieci anni ecco. Entra un tedesco, pane, pane, perché si sentiva il bel profumo di pane [unclear] così, pane, pane, pane. Entra e noi, questi bamboretti si fece certi occhi così e si vide entrà, e va là questo coso e piglia un pane così nella tavola come faccio io ora e dopo parte questo tedesco. Un vuole che il discorso nel frattempo che lui ci va fuori, entra la mi mamma: ‘E te, ndu vai?’. Mi disse, io, pane e pane. Parte di corsa. E lì, siccome, nel mentre che l’entrava questo andava via col pane in mano, mi chiappa il pane mi mà, e lo riporta là. [background laughing] E lu, andè via ma però poverino [unclear], ecco e lei s’affaccia sulla porta e lo guardava e dopo anche noi ragazzi sai e lu poverino andava via con la testa, un po’ son dolori perché aveva capito, come dì, ho preso il pane perché siccome lo sapevino anche loro che c’era la fame per il mondo a quell’ora, no, e allora, e a lei, come dì, povera donna hann levato il pane per i suoi figlioli, hai capito? E lu andava via così. E la mamma, no, la mamma la, nel mentre entrava la mamma, mi sono scordata un discorso. Nel mentre che la mamma entrava, e lui usciva fori col pane e lei glielo prese, tu ,come dì, m’hai preso il pane che per i miei figlioli, vedi quanti ce ne ho! Perché non erimo neanche tutti noi, c’era Franco, c’eran tutti
EL: Sì, sì, c’eran tutti.
DDC: Glielo prese e lo rimise là. E lu andè via, lo capì forse nella sua cosa capì che questo discorso come dì, hai preso il pane che c’erano i miei figlioli lì poverini miei che morino da fame. Quando lei lo rimise là e poi, e lu andè via ma popo’ così pover’omo, e dopo lei s’affacciò e lo guardò e lu era andato via un poco macilento così a lei ne seppe male, prese il pane, poi s’affaccia sulla porta: ‘Camerata! Camerata! Camerata!’ ‘Sì?’ e lu si gira e lei n’andò incontro e gli dette il pane. Povera donna. Lu, io v’avrei fatto vedè questo ragazzo abbracciato a nonna, v’avrei fatto vedè. Tutti i giorni che lu passava de lì c’aveva da salutar la nonna. Camerata! Poverini, han sofferto anche loro perché [unclear] quelli lì c’era quello che era più buono, c’era insomma, poverini. Non te le puoi scordà queste cose che. E lì vicino alla nostra casa t’ho detto, cioè ammazzarono questi ragazzi.
EL: Però era a Pioppetti, no? Il tuo vicino di casa, lì.
DDC: A Pioppetti, a Pioppetti trentadue.
EL: Ma il tuo vicino di casa come l’ammazzarono a Pioppetti, che l’andarono a prendere al bar?
DDC: Ah, ma quello, Corrado.
EL: Sì.
DDC: Corrado, quello sì che stava in
EL: Come mai c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti?
DDC: Allora, c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti perché se tu, ora io non so se lei è pratico come. Te vieni da coso, dal Pitoro, vieni dal Pitoro e quando arrivi a un certo punto c’è la strada che continua e va a Valpromaro, c’è la strada che va giù che va a Montemagno, e po’ Camaiore, un po’ dalle parti lì, no? Allora, c’è questo incrocio e lì, allora c’è anche quella marginetta?
FC: Sì.
DDC: Allora, dove c’è quella marginetta lì c’avevino ammazzato un capitano tedesco che l’avevino accusato e c’è stata non so quanto ferma la su jeep che avevino insomma quelle macchine lì che avevino soldati.
FC: Sì.
DDC: Perché c’erino partigiani lassù, dove siamo stati anche noi lassù al Ferrandino. Erino scesi di notte che avevino fatto? Avevino trovato, avevino visto che questa macchina veniva e loro appostati hanno sparato a questi partigiani, eh a questi tedeschi e avevino ammazzato questo capitano dei tedeschi, non so, capitano, generale, non lo so com’era. E lì c’era la su macchina ferma c’era stata tanto e lì ammazzavino un tedesco? Normale, dieci dei nostri fucilati. E invece un tedesco, un graduato, è logico che lì quanti ne passò. Eppoi, faccia, fa conto che trentadue li impiccarono, a ogni platano c’era uno impiccato. Trentadue. E poi se ne ammazzarono dei altri ora non me lo ricordo ma quelli io li ho visti.
EL: Il papà di Rino?
DDC: Eh, il papà di Rino, quello lo ammazzarono ma non senza portarlo laggiù. Vennero in sù, quando arrivarono lì a Leccio sono entrati perché c’è sempre stato ci vendevano insomma i cosi.
EL: L’alimentare.
DDC: L’alimentare insomma era un popo’ di tutto il sale, quella roba lì ci si andava a comprare allora il pane, un popo’ di minestra, insomma, quel che si poteva, ecco, e lui, si fermarono lì, lo trovarono lì, e lo presero. Ammazzarono. Ora, se l’ammazzarono lì laggiù ce l’hanno portato morto, se no, ce l’hanno portato, non so com’era o non me lo ricordo ora, quella cosa lì on me la ricordo bene.
EL: Ma sapeva una cosa della forchetta?
DDC: Ah, ma della forchetta che la, sì, ma quella, allora, allora, perché l’han trovato, eccovedi, ora me l’hai messo in mente, lo trovarono a mangiare e lu pover’omo mangiava la forchetta, e l’ammazzarono e la forchetta gliel’avevino infilata, pover’omo, sì. Erino, erino cose brutte a quell’ora lì, sì.
EL: Invece il camion?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Il camion mitragliato?
DDC: E il camion mitragliato, ma più che quelle cose però, più che un camion grosso era na macchina sempre da soldato si vedeva, era lì davanti dove c’è quella marginetta.
EL: No, no, ma dico, quello mitragliato dagli aerei.
DDC: Ora quello non me lo ricordo come
FC: In generale si ricorda per esempio degli aerei che mitragliavano, dei bombardamenti?
DDC: Ma quello, allora un camion che mitragliarono, la prima cosa che si fece che erimo io e lo zio Luigi, eravamo alle pecore, avemmo portato le pecore quaggiù nella selva che là c’è la dove si scende il monte di, per andare a Camaiore la. Noi si chiamava la Girata del Giannini perché lì c’era la cosa, la Signori Giannini, che a quell’ora c’era la villa di questi signori. E questa selva noi dove si mandava le pecore era vicina che come dì là c’è la villa, come fosse là, è la villa e qui, noi c’eravamo con le pecore e lì c’era la strada che passava e saliva sul monte di Montemagno. Allora quando un camion passava, eravamo vicini da questa curva e a parte che c’erano castagne, c’erino gli alberi e tutto quanto però la curva la rimaneva visente che voglio dire e noi, quando si vede questi. Nel frattempo arrivano questi aerei, arrivano questi aerei e là c’era questo camion, proprio a questa curva lì e il camion quando sentì gli aerei si fermò, si fermò lì, eh, oh, non c’era modo e lì era tutto scoperto. Questi cami fecero la picchiata, incominciarono a mitragliare questo camion, noi io e il fratello più piccolino c’avevamo le pecore allora, non so se ne ha raccontato a te, queste pecore, perché cami, e gli aerei quando fanno le picchiate poi, venivino bassi, venivino bassi chequasi quasi pareva che ti vedessero perché lì per, per cosa questo camion, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] pecore spariti no. Oddio, si chiamava Luigi il mio fratello lì, che eravamo insieme, era più piccolino di me, le pecore sparite, non si sapeva dove erino andate a finì. Oh Luigi, ma noi si va a, andiamo a casa, andiamo a casa e si parte. Piglio mio fratello che era più piccolino di me per la mano e su attraverso per la vigne, per le cose, si arriva a, sì ma si andava per venì a casa, come si fa a dì alla mamma che le pecore non c’è più? E ndov’è queste pecore, ndov’è queste pecore, come si fa a dirglielo. Quando s’arriva a casa, prima d’andare a casa, si passa dall’ovile dove avevamo le pecore, no. Le pecore erano già tutte là suddentro! Si pigiavano l’una con l’altro, si pigiati, io ve ‘vrei fatto vedè, si erano ricosate tutte insieme, avevino avuto paura anche loro perché quando questi aerei facevino, un po’ bassi così, voglio dì, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] per cosà quel camion. No, io quelle pecore ve l’avrei fatto vedè. Eppure presero la, erimo lontani, perché ora lei non lo sa ma di laggiù dalla curva del Giannini arrivà alle capanne, un è lì, come si fa, si diceva lo zio Luigi, oh Luigi, ma come si fa a dire alla mamma che un si sà dove sono andate le pecore? Come si fa? Io ero più grandina, come si fa andargliela a dì? E lo so, diceva mio fratello tutto calmo così eh, oh, c’è da dirglielo [laughs], c’è da dirglielo. Lo so che c’è da dirglielo, ma come si fa? E invece, quando s’arrivò a casa, lei pensi no, le pecore erano tutte dentro, una pigiata col culo nell’altro, sì n’avrei fatto vedè, pareva un gomitolo dallo spavento che avevino avuto anche loro. Perché questi aerei per fà la picchiata su quel, venivino proprio, ci sarebbe insomma lo potevi toccare, potevi prendere, una cosa così non si può scordà.
FC: E si ricorda degli altri episodi dove c’erano gli aerei? Degli altri momenti?
DDC: No, degli aerei.
FC: Così, che mitragliavano?
DDC: No, succedeva che, ad esempio quando hanno anche, mi pare anche che abbiano bombardato anche Viareggio qualche volta ecco, però noi stando lassù si poteva vedere questi aerei che facevino, si diceva delle volte, vedi stanno facendo la picchiata, si diceva tra noi ragazzi, perché [mimics noise of diving plane] e così o tiravino le bombe, ecco, quello sì. Però più vicini no [coughs] da noi.
FC: Ho capito, ho capito.
DCC: Quello era [laughs].
FC: E invece, ma lei lo sapeva chi erano questi aerei? Cioè chi è che li guidava? Chi è che faceva queste cose?
DCC: No, no, quello io non lo sapevo, allora prima di tutto
FC: Nessuno gliel’aveva spiegato?
DCC: No, che c’erano sopra come dì, dei soldati che guidavano l’aereo, quello sì, però non sapevo altro ecco.
FC: OK.
DCC: Perché le dico anche un discorso. Allora, ora in tutte le case ci sono le televisioni c’è, però voglio dire noi non ci sapevano, non si sapevano le cose ecco.
FC: E lei andava a scuola, in quel periodo lì?
DDC: E io in tempo, dunque la guerra c’è stata nel? ’40-’45, nel ’45 son passati di lassù. Ecco io però allora nel quarant, che ad esempio le dirò una cosa. Io ho fatto soltanto la terza elementare. Perché lì al paese facevano solo, vedi dopo, dopo no, dopo fecero, hanno fatto anche fino alla quinta però lì ci facevano fino alla terza elementare. Che succedeva? Chi voleva continuare per fare fino alla quinta, c’era da andare o a Valpromaro o alla Tirelici. Allora chi c’aveva la bicicletta, chi ci poteva che è, va bene, se no, si accontentavino della terza elementare. E infatti, io ho fatto solo la terza elementare.
FC: Prima della guerra quindi.
DDC: Sì, sì, prima della guerra.
EL: Prima della resistenza, perché sì, sì perché, prima della guerra.
DDC: Eh oh.
EL: Eh sì, perché sei del ’32.
DDC: Io sono del ’32 e la guerra nel ’40-’44 voglio dire, la peggio qui tra noi è passata nel ’44.
EL: Sì, sì, sì.
DDC: E allora chi voleva continuare, chi poteva continuare, c’era da andare a fare la quarta e quinta a Valpromaro o alla Tivaelici. Allora per quel che riguarda i nostri fratelli che si, coso l’han fatta alla cosa, Vergilio, l’han fatta alla Tivaelici. Invece dopo, hanno fatto, la quarta e la quinta la facevano anche lì alla scuola a Montemagno, infatti Luigi, lo zio Luigi e Aldo l’hanno fatta lì la quarta e la quinta che mi ricordo, per fare la quarta e la quinta a Luigi c’era una maestra tedesca a insegnarli. Che era cattiva da morire, che li picchiava, che una volta con una cosa, che poi lo zio Luigi era, boh non ce n’era, non ce n’era davvero, e n’aveva con, con una stecca di legno n’aveva picchiato su una cosa, aveva fatto male a un unghia, ora non mi ricordo, guarda, era insomma così. Quando venne a casa, che era buono lo zio Luigi, lo zio Aldo era un pochino più vivace, ma lo zio Luigi era un ragazzo che non ce n’era davvero, eh mio fratello. Allora, ma lei era cattiva, siccome poi parlava più tedesco che italiano, non la intedevino bene, lei voleva essere capita, voleva, non aveva quella cosa di dire, ma io parlo con dei bimbetti, voglio dire, che pretendo, no? No, no. Lei picchiava, c’aveva una stecca di legno, ma tipo un bastone no così e li picchiava e n’aveva picchiato su un unghia lo zio Luigi e quest’unghia mi sembra, era andata tutta, no. Lo zio Vergilio, quando vide che questo, a questo figliolo n’aveva accusato mezzo un unghia ma poi li s’era diventato tutto nero perché le unghie son delicate, con la stecca, che poi lo zio Luigi era buono, era un ragazzo, no, non ce n’era, Aldo no, lo zio Aldo era più vivace ma lo zio Luigi era un santo davvero. San Luigi Gonzaga delle volte si diceva, era così davvero eh. Allora, quando venne a casa che vide questo dito sfatto, lo zio Vergilio va laggù, trappò la chiappa per il collo, che sia la prima e ultima volta perché te insegno, mi fa, e poi non so chi salvò sennò la guantava per il collo sta maestra insomma che poi ti rovinavi perché voglio dì. Ma insomma, siamo così.
FC: E poi, lei prima a un certo punto ha detto che dopo un po’ sono arrivati dei tedeschi vicino, no, alla casa dove stava lei? Non ho capito se era lo stesso di quello che cercava il pane oppure se erano degli altri?
DDC: No, no, ora però che n’ho raccontato che facevano i rastrellamenti, in quel punto lì?
FC: No, in generale, se c’erano dei, se lei ha avuto a che fare altre volte con dei tedeschi? Se.
DCC: Eh ,tedeschi passavino mille volte davanti a casa, così e cosà, eh, voglio dire, di che, che l’avevino ammazzati il coso l’ho detto quel discorso lì ecco. E poi c’era una villa vicina come dì, come ti ho detto io, quella è come fosse da casa mia e là c’erino proprio tedeschi, ha capito? Eh, oh, che facevano a venir qua e andà? Camminavino tante volte su e giu però insomma ecco un c’è più stato delle cose così.
FC: Ho capito.
DDC: Da quella volta lì che ammazzarono quelli lì dopo voglio dire non c’è più stato. E dopo poverini venivino la gente a vedere perché sapevino per esempio, c’è, n’avevino ammazzato che era gente di, uomini di Stiava che l’avevino presi, l’avevino ammazzati là e quell’altro era da n’altra parte perché lì facevino i rastrellamenti e poi li chiappavino perché venivan in mente. Dicevino loro qui si va [unclear]. Erano tutti partigiani secondo loro anche se non erino perché quella gente lì poverino non erino partigiani.
FC: E invece di fascisti?
DDC: Ma fascisti nel paese, nel paese?
FC: Fascisti nel senso italiani, sì, fascisti che, non i tedeschi, i fascisti se venivano a, non so.
DDC: No, fascisti anche nei paesi allora c’era un discorso c’era sempre per dire il capo dei fascisti, quelli che contavino logico che, che poi facevano come ti potrei dire ad esempio il quattro novembre che facevino la, che uscivano fuori, facevino, andavano giù per la strada un bel terzo e poi si rigiravino insomma quando facevino quelle dimostrazioni lì, se ad esempio, tutti non c’andavano, guai, ma quelli non, ecco, erano proprio quelli del paese che ce l’avevino con te perché magari non la pensavi come lui, hai capito? Allora, così, così. Allora, ma proprio un tempo proprio de coso, prendevano un tempo proprio de famoso del fascismo, riprendevino chi non era andato, c’era de, il quattro novembre, faccio per dire, ora un discorso del genere e chi non c’andava, allora andavino a prender a casa e poi gli n’davino l’olio di ricino lì, ecco, tutte quelle cose lì. E nei paesi più che nelle città. Perché c’era sempre quello che ce l’aveva con quello là perché, hai capito, così. Così.
FC: Capito. E lei si ricorda quando è finita la guerra?
DDC: Ora quello, io non lo ricordo.
FC: Cioè, cosa, se è cambiato qualcosa, non proprio il giorno, magari non proprio il giorno preciso preciso. Però se c’è stato un momento in cui lei aveva capito che la guerra era finita?
DDC: Allora, allora, quando insomma era finita la guerra, questo me lo ricordo. Allora, dice, ma lo sai che vengono, oggi, dice, vengono gli Americani a Stiava, faccio per dì. Allora noi si scese il bosco, salgo a Stiava, infatti nel frattempo erano arrivati questi Americani, questi cosi, ci fu, la gente l’acclamava tutti insomma, quel discorso lì sì me lo ricordo però così come, comunque ci s’andò.
FC: E c’era andata.
DDC: Sì, ci sono andata, sì ci s’andò. Eh certo.
FC: E poi cos’è successo, cos’è successo dopo qunado è finita la guerra? Come sono cambiate le cose?
DDC: Eh, dopo allora abbiamo cominciato voglio dire, meno male questo, meno male quell’altro, voglio dire non c’era più il coso di rimpiattarsi, era tutta un’altra cosa. Eh, dopo quando ci furono.
FC: E’ tornata nella casa?
DDC: Sì, allora, il papà che eravamo andati tipo uno perché i tedeschi li prendevino, li fucilavino, li cosavino e erino andati lassù come detto sopra Gombitelli. Allora, quando furono, quando ci furono, voglio dire che siamo stati salvati allora ognuno è ritornato nelle sue case e abbiamo ricominciato quello che si faceva prima, voglio dire, ha capito la gente così e ha ripreso il suo modo di fare voglio dire.
FC: Quindi non si ricorda tipo questi famosi tedeschi che stavano nella villa quando sono andati via?
DDC:Eh no, allora,
FC: No, così, chiedo.
DDC: Quello non lo ricordo ma quando fu quell’affare lì, che cominciarono e che sono andati via, insomma hanno liberato queste case che avevino occupato loro, insomma così. Quello non ricordo altro, ecco.
FC: E la vita quindi, non so, è ritornato tutto come era prima?
DDC: Eh insomma, piano piano, voglio dire.
FC: Cosa, si ricorda qualcosa in particolare?
DDC: Eh c’erano, c’era anche lì vicino alla casa nostra c’era venuti degli sfollati di Viareggio che poverini insomma cioè poi un po’ nelle città bombardavano ma insomma e dopo sono ritornati ognuno a casa sua voglio dire, piano piano insomma. Ora quanti giorni c’avranno messo non lo so ma insomma [laughs], il discorso così. E lì, questi lì che avevano ammazzato lì vicini poi allora li vennero a bruciare questi, questi sette che ammazzarono lì vicino a casa mia. Ci son venuti, io chi era non lo so, senz’altro gente che voglio dire, gente apposta per, son venuti e l’hanno perché piano piano s’erano, ecco così.
FC: Nessuno li aveva sepolti?
DDC: Sono stati bruciati. E poi quello che c’era successo poi [unclear], quello non me lo ricordo comunque. Ma quelli lì poverini.
EL: Nessuno, ti ha chiesto se li avevano sepolti. No.
FC: Non li avevano sepolti?
DDC: No, no, no, erano là, erano rimasti, no, perché lì, vennero presi perché non è che per esempio erano stati ste cose lì e poi il giorno dopo sono andati via. Allora sono venuti a prenderli e li han portarli via ma gente non so, del comune, chi c’è venuto quello non lo ricordo. E parte erino già un poco posati se l’han bruciati, quello non ricordo. Non lo ricordo bene, direi delle bugie. Non me lo ricordo a modo quella cosa lì.
FC: E lei, lei dopo la guerra le è capitato spesso di ripensare alla guerra?
DDC: Eh, viene spesso da ripensare! Voglio dire allora, ora no, ora sono passati già qualche anno no, ma sul primo così se ne riparlava tante volte. Se ne riparlava, oddio ma ti ricordi quello ma quell’altro ma come è successo, ecco. Quella cosa lì sì, quello me lo ricordo bene quel discorso lì che ne è stato riparlato parecchie volte e insomma, eh allora.
FC: Si parlava anche degli americani, degli inglesi, dei, dei?
DDC: Sì, ma quando son venuti loro che voglio dire hanno occupato il paese insomma anche loro ma era già tutto differente. Non era un’affare come lì al tempo dei tedeschi insomma no.
EL: E che vi hanno dato gli americani? Vi avevano portato delle cose, no. Che sono, delle coperte, le calze.
DDC: Le coperte c’erino, piu che altro le coperte.
EL: Sì, sì. Ma non anche le calze di nylon?
DDC: Ora io quelle non me le ricordo e ci stà che
EL: Che la nonna te le tirò via.
DDC: No, ma quelle lì un l’avevino portate loro.
EL: Ah.
DDC: No, no, no, quelle lì, le calze fine?
EL: Sì.
DDC: No, no, quelle lì è un passaggio della nonna, che ero già giovanetta a quell’ora sì. Ero pronta, andava alla messa, prima lei andava alla prima messa, perché c’era la prima la mattina presto e dopo noi invece ci si andava più tardi. Che succedeva? Succedeva che noi si stava a casa, c’era la mia sorella più grande e la su nonna, che lei era la più grande di tutti e c’avevimo le bestie, c’era la mucca, c’eran le pecore, c’era il maialino, avevimo di tutto e non ci mancava nulla, non ci mancava nulla [laughs]. E le persone più anziane andavano alla prima messa e noi invece ci piaceva di più andare all’ultima messa, che c’eran le undici. Allora, quando loro andavino via noi si facevi te fa quella cosa, te fà quell’altra, la nonna faceva le cose più pesanti e io invece quelle più, ma insomma, via te fà questo te fa quel. Era l’ora della messa, era l’ora della messa e ero sù in camera che, allora avevo le calze, le calze fine, no? Le calze fine e le avevo lasciate così sulla seggiola, come si fà così, di un salotto, scendo le scale, scendo le scale ma avevo il sottabito. Ma lei pensi che il sottabito, quei sottabiti di una volta, che poi la mia nonna era sarta, e le facevino, ma no quelle, quei, quello spallino fino così, piccino, sì quelle cosine grandi così, un pochettino scollate ma non troppo, così, quelli erino sottabiti che poi la mamma era, la nonna Ancilla era sarta e si faceva, se li faceva da sè insomma. Allora, io ero a prepararmi e avevo lasciato le calze, era sul primo che mi mettevo le calze fini e l’avevo lasciate in salotto così attraverso alla seggiola. Scendo le scale, ma ero in sottabito. Lei era giù in cucina. Io chiudo l’occhio e la vedo. Scendo le scale e lei in fondo alle scale. Te dove andresti in questa maniera qui? Sono andà a prendermi le cose, vedilo là, vedi, vedete perché si dava del voi, vedete mamma, è là sulla seggiola là in salotto. Vai, te le porto io le calze. Dio bono, ma son già qui, e che mi ci vuole ad andà a prender le calze là? Cammina! Va in camera, vergognosa! Ma santo cielo, ma che ho fatto di male? Va in camera, ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello! Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello con la, con i sottabiti fatti da lei perché era sarta la mi mamma, ma i sottabiti di una volta non se li scordi, eh. Avevino come minimo le spalle grandi così, qui quando era tanto era scollato qui, eh. Se mi vedeva mi fratello in sottabito. No, io chiudo l’occhi e vedo la mi mamma, vai, te le porto io le calze, dio bono, ma sono già qui, era in mezzo a scala che ci vol a piglià le, no! Ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello. Ci sarà stato, ragazzi, ora a parte tutto, ma allora nelle famiglie era così eh. Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello.
EL: Insomma le calze te le ha portate?
DDC: Sì, le calze me le portò però mi fece rimontare le scale e a un certo punto se no poteva venirmi. No ma seria perché te.
EL: Però le calze, però non bruciò le calze di nylon?
DDC: Le calze, quando, no, non le bruciò, le strappò, le strappò. E queste sarebbino le calze? Perché calze fini allora, avevimo le calze fini perché sennò si dovevino portà fine ma già più grossine c’erano quelle no fine fine come c’eran ora voglio dì perché ero già giovanetta mica avevimo quelle lì già un po’ più, capito? E l’avevo su questa seggiola in salotto ma quando lei le prese in mano le strappò, e queste sarebbino le calze? Era così, era così. E in sottabito mi poteva vedè mio fratello.
FC: E quanti anni aveva quando è successo questo?
DDC: Ora io con esattezza io non lo ricordo insommma con esattezza ma ero e po’, ma avevo incominciato a portare le calze fini. Avrò avuto senz’altro, non so, una quindicina d’anni, voglio dì, così. Mi poteva vedè mio fratello. Ora, dice, poteva, al limite poteva ma se mi vedeva mio fratello in sottabito. Allora era così. E allora nelle famiglie c’era questo rispetto qui. C’era, era così guarda e non potevi mica camminare e allora ma le calze fine. Ma scherzi davvero. M’ero permessa di comprarmi le calze fini [laughs].
FC: Quindi lei lavorava già all’epoca?
DDC: Eh?
FC: Lavorava?
DDC: Ma allora non si faceva, ora voglio dire non, lavoravo ma in casa ero sempre voglio dire, si faceva di tutto perché si faceva, anch’io ho cominciato presto anche a cucire perché anche la mamma era sarta. La mamma era sarta però insomma io dopo mi sono cosata sempre di più voglio dire. Ma tante cose si sapevino già fare da lei, perché per esempio e fai via, io faccio [unclear] un po’ m’è sempre garbato a cucire voglio dire. Ero, voglio dire, non ero, la nonna, la tu nonna era più robusta di me, io invece sono sempre stata più magra, invece ora sì sono più grassa, ma allora sono sempre stata più magrina. E la mi mamma mi diceva che le persone bionde, più delicate di quell’altre, te no, te sta tranquilla, te fà così, te fà così. Me diceva così.
FC: Non era d’accordo.
DDC: No! Era vero che io non avevo la forza perché la su nonna, quel che faceva la mi sorella, è una cosa, ma davvero eh.! Ma non è che non lo comandasse nessuno, lo faceva proprio spontaneamente da sè. Per esempio, i nostri, sia mi papà sia mi fratello sia il nonno avevino la falegnameria e non ci lavorava nessuno sul terreno. E noi il terreno che s’aveva si chiamava allopre si diceva allora, si chiamava vello per vangà, cosa per fà il solco per fà, per seminare per, perché oh tanto terreno si faceva di tutto, voglio dire, era così. Lei, la mi sorella, le la sapeva fà tutto. Quando era fatto la cosa più grossa di vangar anche la terra, lei faceva solchi, seminava La cosa, faceva tutto, tutto, la nonna faceva tutto. Ma io ero magrina, ero così che [laughs] un avevo la forza della mi sorella. Mi davo da fà perché volevo fà quel che faceva lei [laughs] sì perché quando siamo ragazzi e le impastava il pane, le faceva il pane, le, io non ho mai fatto il pane in casa mia.
FC: No?
DDC: Mai, non ho mai impastato il pane.
FC: E come mai?
DDC: Eeeh, non avevo la forza perché, eh, diceva la mamma, te sei troppo mingherlina, non puoi perché quando faceva il pane si faceva,
FC: Come facevano?
DDC: Lei faccia conto che si faceva una decina o dodici pani ma quelli lunghi così casalinghi eh. E ciavevimo , c’è sempre lassù alla casa paterna e si cosava questo, faceva questo pane la mi sorella che lei è na forza e io,
FC: A mano?
DDC: Sì, sì, sì, sì.
FC: O usavate qualche strumento?
DDC: No, no, no, no, tutto a mano eh, tutto a mano. Lei faceva, sapeva fà tutto la mi sorella. A fà tutto, davvero, e allora [unclear] e allora ma io siccome volevo fare quello che faceva lei perché visto quando siamo bimbette ma perché io non lo devo fà? E allora diceva la mi mamma, ma te non puoi, non hai la forza che ha lei. Perché la nonna era brava per fà quelle cose lì, era più robusta invece e mi diceva: ‘le persone bionde un han na forza così’. Ma che vuol dì na forza? Dicevo io, [laughs] dicevo che vuo dì. Io volevo fà quel che faceva mi sorella ma niente da fà, non lo potevo fà. Ma vedi te, sei più mingherlina, sei mingherlina, mi diceva e io ero arrabbiata, non volevo che mi dicesse così [laughs]. E siccome sia mio papà sia mio fratello sia voglio dire facevano i falegnami e anche per lavorare la terra perché c’è l’abbiamo ma, ce n’avevimo tanta, si chiamava le persone apposta per fare queste cose. Allora quando era a lavorare invece per fà il solco che la terra è bella sciolta e viene lavorata, ma lei, la mi sorella ci faceva il solco, seminava veloce e lo volevo fà anch’io. Io non ho mai impastato il pane, eh oh. Ma te, siccome sei più bionda, sei più mingherlina, vedi le gente bionde o n’han la forza che hanno quelle more, ma perché uno deve avè la forza [laughs], no me faceva. Hai visto quando siamo bimbette che vogliamo fà quel che fà quell’altro, lo vogliamo fà anche noi. È così.
FC: Va bene. Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro? Qualche altra cosa che le viene in mente sulla guerra?
DDC: Ma io non mi ricordo, non so. Le ho raccontato quel discorso lì che si dovette partire, andare lassù sopra Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, ci si portò, ci s’aveva le pecore, ci s’aveva quella roba eh, c’andò mi papà, voglio dire, ci si portò anche quelle lì, c’andò lei lassù sempre la mi sorella più grande che era insomma col mi papà lassù voglio dire. Quando erano qui erano a fare, che ve sò dì, avevamo fatto anche, avevamo, io no perché. L’ho detto, ero una bimbetta avevino fatto anche un coso, un rifugio nel campo lì sotto che si, entravino da una parte che c’era un poggetto alto così e qua c’era il campo. E di lì c’avevino fatto il coso entravino lì sotto però come facevino a stà continuamente?
FC: Com’era fatto questo rifugio, proprio?
DDC: Questo rifugio era fatto dentro come tipo una stanza e poi era tutto cosato con le cose di, con le tavole, con le tavole di legno. E lì dentro era come una stanza ma certo.
FC: Era scavata?
DDC: Eh certo! Era scavato sì.
FC: E quante persone ci stavano?
DDC: Eh ma quattro cinque persone perché era un bell’affare grande così eh. Non sempre ci potevino dormì perché insomma anche dormì così sottoterra in quella maniera lì. Fu così che poi era una cosa insomma e andarono a finire sopra Gombitelli dopo il mi papà insomma gente lì via.
FC: Ah, era per nascondersi?
DDC: Nascondersi perché facevano
FC: Gli uomini?
DDC: Eh certo!
FC: Quindi lei non c’è andata, non c’andava dentro?
DDC: No, no, no, noi no, solo gli uomini. Prima dormivano nel bosco perché c’abbiamo boschi vicini ma con le coperte dormire nel bosco insomma, e io la mattina quando m’hanno detto andava a portà, andava a portare da mangiare il caffè, voglio dire, oppure a mezzogiorno la minestra tutto quanto, che mi mettevo il sacchetto sotto la gonnella per portargli e loro dormivino nel bosco. Ma han fatto una vita. Eh. E tutti quelli lì vicini, voglio dire, di lì, lassù dove si stava lassù c’eravamo, e sette famiglie mi pare. E ogni famiglia c’era, c’avevino la persona maschio voglio dire e partivino, chi andava di lì, chi andava di là, e sul primo che facevino i rastrellamenti che noi ragazzi s’andava lassù in cima e si vedevino quando le macchine partivino per i rastrellamenti, via! Scappate! Scappate! Magari andavino via mezzi nudi, si vestivino per il mondo, davvero, e dopo cinque minuti arrivavino i tedeschi a fare cosa. E noi erimo sempre.
FC: Cosa dicevate, ai tedeschi?
DDC: Nulla noi, noi erimo bimbetti.
FC: E non vi chiedevano dove erano gli uomini?
DDC: No, voglio dire a noi bimbetti no, erimo, voglio dire.
FC: Non si ricorda?
DDC: Voglio dire ai grandi, magari alle donne, magari l’avran detto ma e mi dicevino quando, a delle volte mi dicevino, come dì, che erino andati alla guerra, che non c’erino a casa, così. Erino andati alla guerra, eh, oh! A quello lì che t’ho detto che nun ce la fece ad andar via che la su sorella entrò tra una materassa e l’altra, la su sorella a sedere e faceva a vista lì a dò la poppa alla bimba. A sedere, entrino i tedeschi [unclear] al mondo e lui era tra. Eppure ragazzi a raccontarlo non ci si crede, ci si scriverebbe davvero un libro. È vero, è vero!
FC: E quindi adesso, quello che pensa lei della guerra, è cambiato rispetto all’epoca? Cosa pensa adesso della guerra?
DDC: Ma ora io, a dir la verità, insomma io penso che ora son tanti, son passati tanti anni voglio dire,
FC: Le dico le emozioni.
DDC: Certamente quando ne parlo, voglio dire, per me è come rivivere quel momento eh, eh, oh! Ma io delle volte penso, mi viene pensato come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra con le pecore per andare a Gombitelli. Perché lì lassù dove si abita noi, alle capanne ci chiamino eccetera, scendi giù in paese, e poi s’attraversa la strada e si prende la strada che va sù, lì accanto alla scuola c’è una strada grande che va a finire a Gombitelli ma poi quando siamo a Gombitelli per andare al Ferrandino dove si portò noi le bestie, ce n’era, c’era da camminare un altro bel pezzo eh, da Gombitelli al Ferrandino. Eppure. E delle volte dico io, ma come, io non ricordo, ecco quella lì quante volte me lo sono domandato che non sono mai riuscita a capire come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra per andare lassù. Perché da lì, da dove si abita noi c’è da scendere giù dove c’è la chiesa lì al paese, a Montemagno e poi c’è da prendere la strada per andare a Gombitelli. Come si fece, come è stata fatta quella cosa lì, me lo sono domandato tante volte, non l’ho mai capita.
FC: Perché non se lo ricorda?
DDC: Non me lo ricordo. Non lo ricordo perché lì da tutte le parti c’erano i tedeschi [unclear] a Montemagno era pieno così di tedeschi eh. C’era lì davanti alla chiesa c’erano i, nel coso del piazzale davanti alla chiesa c’erino proprio le cose dei tedeschi. Lì dove c’era la, che ora c’è la, come si chiama la cosa lì che c’ha Oriano?
EL: Bottega.
DDC: La bottega là che ci vanno a mangià la gente là.
EL: Sì, sì.
DDC: Più che bottega.
EL: Sì, sì, Le Meraviglie.
DDC: Le Meraviglie. Lì c’era, anche lì c’erino tedeschi da tutte le parti. Allora non c’era, c’era questo coso vuoto che i padroni erano in America e lì occuparono tutto questi tedeschi. Avevino, ti ho detto, [unclear] tutte le carte che erino lì. E loro sapevino, come trovavi una casa vuota, sta tranquilla, non chiedevino il permesso a nessuno. E poi ammazzavino le bestie [laughs], trovavino da mangià. Eh beh, ce n’erano tanti di tedeschi a Montemagno, non so come mai.
EL: Perché era la via che andava a Lucca forse.
DDC: E poi, partigiani, partigiani, come avevino paura dei partigiani però.
FC: I tedeschi.
DDC: I tedeschi avevino paura, anche quando venivino in casa, che noi erimo bimbetti no, e ‘te partigiani, no? Partigiani! Partigiani!’ E noi si diceva: ‘No! No!’. Quello si sapeva anche se eravamo bimbetti di dì di no. Di dir di no dei partigiani.
FC: E aveva paura dei tedeschi?
DDC: Avevimo paura davvero dei tedeschi. Insomma anche lì da noi averci fatto delle cose lì, aver ammazzato quella gente lì voglio dire, anche lì li ho visti tutti eh insomma. E quando eravamo là, perché si doveva, avevano attaccato fogli anche a questa villa, avevino attaccato fogli alle porte che noi si doveva sfollare. Si doveva sfollare perché lì tiravino all’aria tutto, no. Che di lì si andò alla casa là al Meschino. S’andò alla casa la, lo sai no dov’è questa casa al Meschino? Ecco, la casa al Meschino che poi anche lì vennero i tedeschi allora come come ci trovarono là non si sa perché questa casa qui che dico io è la nel mezzo a vigneto e al bosco, ma lontano di lì dalla casa dove si stava noi. Eravamo sfollati tutti perché avevano attaccato fogli che avrebbero ammazzato tutti, di sfollare, di sfollare. Allora non si sapeva dove andare e si parte, si va tutti là a questa casa là nel bosco, ma è na casa grande e era su, era du piani, na casa sotto e sopra insomma e s’andò là. Ci portammo le cose più necessarie e s’andò là. La nonna invece non volle mai venire, è sempre stata a casa lì. Invece quando vennero là i tedeschi, che si misero tutti in fila, che si dovevino fucilare tutti, perché c’avevino scoperto che noi eravamo là e dicevino che eravamo partigiani. ‘Tutti partigiani! Partigiani! Partigiani!’ Ma poi c’erimo bimbetti, c’era lo zio Luigi che era più piccolino di me. Allora ci misero tutti lì in piazza davanti alla casa, non so se eravamo una trentina, sì, una trentina eravamo sì, allora io abbracciai mio fratello e lì tutti i tedeschi intorno col fucile puntato. Abbracciai lo zio Luigi e girai le spalle al tedesco perché secondo me, secondo me, ammazzavino me e ma, con le spalle, ma io Luigi lo salvavo, te pensa. E invece che successe? Successe, eravamo lì tutti pronti che loro pronti, che si sapeva che quella gente non perdonavino. Nel frattempo scende di lassù, perché noi eravamo così giù che c’era questa casa e poi c’era un vigneto su che andava un popolino su così. Da questo vigneto che c’era nel mezzo una bella cosa, stradina che veniva giù, vennero, incominciarono a venì tre o quattro uomini, di lassù ma vestiti normali, no tedeschi. Allora noi si dice, questi ragazzi, ‘Oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani’, e quei tedeschi che erano lì ebbero, meno male! Ebbero paura, invece di venire insù vicino perché il coso, c’era la strada che veniva giù così, questi tedeschi incominciarono a saltà poggio e piano giù per il bosco. E noi [laughs] e meno male, se no c’avevino messo tutti in fila, si dovevino essere fucilati.
FC: Come mai vi avevano messo in fila?
DDC: E perché noi erimo partigiani o c’erimo figlioli dei partigiani, perché erimo là a questa casa nel mezzo a un vigneto nel mezzo così, non eravamo lì più alle case nostre.
FC: Quindi erano bambini, donne?
DDC: Bambini e donne, bambini e donne. E persone anziane messe giù che su una sdraia che poverini un camminavino.
FC: E questi uomini qua che scendevano dal monte, chi erano?
DDC: E quie, no, io non ho mai capito chi erano questi uomini ma questi uomini quando furono così che scendevino giù questo, perché erano, noi erimo qui ma poi c’era questo, questa salita che non era lì vicina, era un bel pezzo di lassù venivan giù e si vedevino sti omini scendere giù vestiti popo’, e lì si incomincià a dì: ‘Oddio partigiani! Se dio vuole partigiani!’. Questi tedeschi saltà poggi e piano e andà per ingiù per il bosco, non s’è più visti dove andati a finì perché avevino paura anche loro dei partigiani [unclear]. E meno male, meno male, ci fu quell’affare lì sennò, erimo già belli e pronti lì. E io avevo abbracciato lo zio Luigi e m’ero, avevo girato le spalle io verso i tedeschi che avevino il fucile puntato e io, secondo me, lo salvavo il mio fratello più piccolino di me. Dissi, me m’ammazzino ma mio fratello no. E invece meno male, ma c’erimo in tanti lì eh [laughs] e insomma. Erino momenti brutti. Erano momenti brutti davvero.
FC: Va bene. Direi che, io la ringrazio perché c’ha raccontato delle cose bellissime e interessanti.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs] insomma.
FC: Sì, bellissime, insomma.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs], bellissime era meglio se non [unclear], era meglio se io n’avevo raccontà, oh, era meglio se n’avevo raccontato na barzelletta [laughs].
FC: Bellissime, nella prospettiva. Ci ha raccontato delle cose interessanti e molto utili, ecco, mettiamola così.
DDC: Sì e insomma così, poverina, quel che v’ho detto la verità perché è successo, voglio dì.
FC: No, no, certo, certo.
DDC: Ero bimbetta e è successo qualche anno fa, eh. È passato qualche giorno, insomma [laughs]. Però insomma grosso modo le cose quelle lì. Ora non mi posso essere ricordate le virgole, per l’amor di dio, però insomma. Così.
FC: Va bene. Grazie.
DDC: E così, eh. E questo era il paese lì a quell’ora.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Delia Del Corto
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Delia del Corto (b. 1932) remembers daily life in wartime Tuscany, living in a family of ten. Provides details on rural life, especially home bread making, and stresses the difficult coexistence with feared German troops. Mentions many anecdotes in the context of the Italian civil war: actions of the resistance, locals being strafed, round-ups, and the killing of 32 civilians as reprisal for the death of a German officer. Recollects the day she found herself under aircraft fire while she took sheep to pastures with her little brother. Describes the construction of a makeshift dug out in a field in which her father hid and recollects how she got caught in crossfire.
Creator
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Francesca Campani
Date
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2017-09-26
Format
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01:09:27 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Identifier
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ADelCortoD170926
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Coverage
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Civilian
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Resistance
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/634/8904/PRobinsonD1601.1.jpg
6f5724486c610bd863a402940f8cc060
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/634/8904/ARobinsonD160911.2.mp3
4f37bc0e490f864de3f1ed0ae6cedfbd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Robinson, Douglas
D Robinson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Robinson, D
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Robinson (1922 - 2017 1215638, 170413 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 158 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Douglas Robinson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DR: Unfortunately, when I came to Oundle people started calling me Dougie and if I, if there’s one thing -
GR: You don’t like. Yeah.
AM: Right. We won’t do that. Right. Here goes then. So, my name’s Annie Moody and I’m a volunteer with the International Bomber Command Centre and today we’re in Oundle and it’s the 11th of September 2016 and I’m with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Robinson and he’s going to tell us his story. So I’m going to start off, if I may, just asking what your date of birth was.
DR: Date of birth.
AM: Yeah.
DR: 27th of July 1922.
AM: ’22. Right. And where were you born Doug?
DR: Where?
AM: Where were you born?
DR: I was born in Skegness.
AM: Skeggy. And what, what did you parents do? What was your family background? What was your family like?
DR: Well my father was a retired warrant officer from the Indian army and that’s, that was it. He was retired. He did a job as Registrar of births and deaths for the district around there. Well the, not the district. Skegness and one or two surrounding villages.
AM: Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters or -
DR: Sorry?
AM: Did you have brothers and sisters?
DR: Yes. I had three of each. Three brothers. Three sisters.
AM: Right.
DR: My eldest brother also went in to the Indian army but he, not until during the war and he was commissioned into the Indian army. Had to come out I’m afraid when they gave India independence.
AM: Right. And what about schooling? What was your schooling like?
DR: Skegness Grammar School.
AM: Yeah. Did you enjoy it?
DR: Well. I didn’t dislike it. Didn’t really enjoy it.
AM: No.
DR: It was alright at times.
AM: How old were you when you left? Sixteen.
DR: Sixteen.
AM: Sixteen. So you would be, that would have been 1938.
DR: Yes. 1938. Around there.
AM: So what did you do when you left school?
DR: I went into a bank. The, have you heard of the TSB? I started as a junior clerk in the TSB and it was strange actually because it was a brand new office. They built it and you know there was no business there and there was the manager and me. The manager was only in his early twenties. He lost his life in the navy during the war.
AM: Right.
DR: I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it but there was a [terrible buzzing noise from interference on microphone -] [a ship, a naval ship escorting the Queen Mary from the [?] across the Atlantic bringing American troops and I think it was the Mary was a lot faster than the cruiser that he was on and so it zigzagged to keep the -] And one day bright sunshine as it is today, middle of the afternoon the ships came together and neither of them gave way and the Mary went straight through it, total loss of life. He was on that. His widow, she was, she’s dead now, she got a pension from Cunard as a result of that.
AM: Blimey.
DR: [?]
AM: So there you were though, a bank clerk with your, with your young manager.
DR: Yeah.
AM: And along came the war.
DR: [not then?] What made you join, what made you join the RAF?
DR: I don’t really, I don’t really know. I did a year in “dad’s army,” The local defence volunteers and then I don’t know I began to think I ought to be doing a bit more -
AM: Ok.
DR: For the war than this.
AM: What were you actually doing in the defence, in “dad’s army” then?
DR: Well we used to guard things that didn’t need guarding. The electricity power station, power thing and the gas works and the funny one was the telephone exchange because they’d built a new post office at Skegness and the telephone exchange was on the top floor so you’d be defending the telephone exchange but people would be coming for posting letters anyway[laughs] I mean.
AM: When you say defending it, defending it with what?
DR: Rifles.
AM: Oh you actually had rifles.
DR: For a year I had a 303 rifle and, I think it was fifty rounds of ammunition in my bedroom every night.
AM: Did you ever, did you ever use it in anger?
DR: No. No. We practiced firing but we never used it in anger.
AM: Yeah. So -
DR: There was -
AM: Sorry. Go on.
DR: There was a scare, a national sort of scare about September of 1940 that the invasion was about to start and we were called out with one of the local, one of the army units that was stationed locally and went out in to the country and spent a cold night out there. Came back next day when it was all cancelled.
AM: But I interrupted you ‘cause I asked you how come you joined the RAF.
DR: Well as I say I felt I ought to do a bit more and I think, oh what really eventually did it. One of my jobs at work was to go to the post office and I went in one day and they’d got a leaflet there which was in sort of three sections and the first one it was about pilots joining and they got twelve and six pence per day I think it was and the next one was navigators and they also got twelve and six pence a day and the third one was gunner eight and sixpence a day so I thought well I can’t fly, well I’ll never be able to fly and I’d done reasonably well in my school certificate maths so I thought well navigator must involve mathematics so I went. I sent this form off to become a navigator and I went to Lincoln for an interview. I’m not sure whether it was at Lincoln or if it was somewhere else but anyway there was a board of three officers. I think it was a group captain and he said, ‘Why do you want to become a navigator?’ And I told him and he said, ‘Well, why don’t you want to be a pilot?’ And I said, ‘I don’t think I could, could do that,’ so he said, ‘Well, I think you could. Would you be guided by me?’ And so I said, I said in my ignorance, I said, ‘Well if I went on a pilot’s course and failed it could I then become a navigator?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘You’ve my assurance on that.’ It shows how green I was. But anyway I agreed to become a pilot and that was it.
AM: And that was that. So, so talk me through it then. What happened? So they’ve decided you’re going to do pilot training,
DR: Yes.
AM: How did that all start? Where did you go first for -
DR: Well first of all I went down to a place near Torquay. Babbacombe near Torquay and I got in a flight there of about thirty five of us and it was my first experience of RAF jiggery pokery because the NCO in charge of the flight said, ‘I know the postings clerk and for,’ I think it was, ‘sixpence a head I can get you posted where you want to go,’ you see so we all wanted to go to the same place. So I paid my sixpence and all the rest of it and we paraded in the little theatre they’d got there on a Saturday for the posting and of course they posted the wrong Robinson. He, he went on my sixpence. So I had to sort of stay there. I stayed the next week and went along for the posting things and I wasn’t on that one. Then on the next week I found out the, I found the NCO who I’d paid my money to and I said, ‘Look I’m fed up being here. Get me posted this week or else.’ And I got posted but instead of going where the others had gone to Torquay I was posted up to Scarborough and I did my initial training at Scarborough and from there I went to Southern Rhodesia.
AM: Right.
DR: To do my flying training.
AM: How did you get to southern Rhodesia?
DR: By troop ship. Really packed with troops. They were going to -
AM: Where did it sail from?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Where did it sail from? Can you remember?
DR: It actually sailed from Glasgow. We were, we were in West Kirby in the Wirral for a few days and then they took us up to Glasgow and we sailed from the Clyde in a convoy, a big convoy. Called at Freetown on the way and then around to Durban.
AM: How long did it take? Ish.
DR: It seemed forever but -
AM: Yeah.
DR: We were in Freetown for several days whilst they refuelled and one thing and another and then as I say went around to Durban.
AM: Were there any scares while you were on the boat?
DR: Not going out. No.
AM: No.
DR: No. We were all at, we had a big convoy. We had, I was trying to think of the battleship that was with us. It was in Freetown near us. It went on from there to the Far East and when they sank the Prince of Wales it was sunk at the same time. I can’t thing which one it was now.
GR: Was that the Repulse?
DR: Repulse.
GR: Repulse. Yeah.
DR: Yes. Repulse I remember sailing past it as we went out of Freetown. Went. Yeah.
AM: So there you are a boy from Skegness.
DR: Sorry?
AM: So here you are a boy from Skegness.
DR: Yes [laughs]
AM: In Rhodesia.
DR: Yes. Yes.
AM: So what was that like? What?
DR: Well it was, it wasn’t bad at all really. We, there was a transit camp we went to first which was the old, it was a showground really and we were in the cattle shed, cattle, where they used to display the cows and so on, had the things on the floor we sat on but it was alright. That was just near Bulawayo. Then we went up to what was then, well now Harare anyway and that’s when I started my flying training. Initial training.
AM: So what was the training like? How did you -
DR: Training on Tiger Moths. And I had a very nice Australian instructor. Very good with me otherwise I wouldn’t have passed but –
AM: How, how did they go about teaching you to fly?
DR: Well he sat in the front cockpit and I sat in the back and communicated by tubes but, but he, he told you what you do and you would do a movement with him and then he’d tell you to do it on your own. It wasn’t really all that difficult.
AM: Could you drive a car at the time?
DR: No. No.
AM: No.
DR: I learned to fly eleven years before I learned to drive a car.
AM: The reason I ask that is because it’s pretty much the same I guess. Somebody’s showing you how to do it and then you do it.
DR: Yeah.
AM: And how long was that training? Were there any alarms and scares in that?
DR: That, that initial training we started at the beginning of November and finished at Christmas.
AM: Right.
DR: And then –
AM: So quite quick.
DR: Moved back down towards Bulawayo for the service training which there were two lots of stations, for service training. One for single engine aircraft by and large expected to go on to fighters and the other for twin engine so we went on the twin engines, the old Oxfords.
AM: How did they decide which you were going to be?
DR: Well you were asked your preference but you didn’t necessarily get it but they obviously had a certain number to post to each place and they made up the number if, but I went on the one I wanted to do actually. The twin engine one. And -
AM: So what did you go on to then then as a twin engine -?
DR: That was the Oxford. It was a –
AM: Right
DR: Wooden aircraft actually. It was designed, it was a nice little aircraft actually.
AM: Yeah. Tell me a bit more about the training then. Any alarms and scares or did it all go smoothly?
DR: Well, yeah, I had a, had a little prang on night flying. The airfield there, it had, it was strange ‘cause it was a grass airfield but there was a concrete thing across one end which we taxied on. You’d land and get on there and beyond that there was a lot of wasteland which was sort of elephant grass you know and that, this night I took off. I think it was my first night solo and I took off but didn’t do it very well and I finished off skidding along the ground in this elephant grass. So I got out and started to walk back and I met the crash thing coming. He said, ‘Have you seen the pilot of that aircraft?’ And I said, ‘Well I am the pilot.’ [laughs] So that was it. But that was all. That wasn’t much. It wasn’t very scary. I mean, just slid along the ground.
AM: Just skidded. It was like a skid.
DR: It was just, I mean, you know, people weren’t overjoyed with you [laughs].
AM: I was going to say, well that was going to be my question. What happened? How much damage did you do to it?
DR: Oh I -
AM: And what happened as a result?
DR: I imagine, I don’t know really what they did. Whether it was written off or not. It probably was. I don’t know. But no. We, we got away with it.
AM: And what happened as a result? Did you just get a telling off or just -
DR: Yeah I got a bit of a telling off and that was about it, about it but the funny thing was they immediately rush you to sick quarters because they think you know there must be some [laughs] you must have some injury, internal if not, but I was in sick quarters overnight I think. That’s all. And then I had to go down to the flight and went with an instructor around, around the low flying area. Supposed to get over your nerves or something.
AM: Climb back on the bike.
DR: Yeah.
AM: So to speak.
DR: Yeah. So that wasn’t really much though.
AM: So what next? You’ve -
DR: Well when we eventually passed out from there and got our wings and so on we went on a train down to Cape Town and then we got on a troop ship that was coming back to this country, almost, there were a few people on but there was about a hundred of us from Rhodesia and there were also some people who had been on air crew training in South Africa. I’ve got a book by one of them in there. Coming back we got on this ship in Cape Town, the Oronsay which was, there was a line called the Orient Line and they only had about four or five ships and they all started with the letters OR Orient, Orion, Orontes and so on and we’d been on our way to Free, going to go to Freetown on the way back, on our way and then in the early morning when it was still dark there was a horrible bang [laughs] and a torpedo came in. I heard the torpedo hit, hit the ship, I heard it hit the things, heard the in-rush of water and I heard the torpedo go bang and I thought it’s time to get up so we got out. There wasn’t, there was no panic. People went quite quickly but quietly upstairs. Unfortunately when we got on deck, well I suppose we knew it before we got on deck but my boat station was on the port side but it had developed a great list to starboard which was where the torpedo had gone in. So all the boats on the starboard er on the port side couldn’t be lowered so which, so went around to the starboard side and there didn’t seem to be any. They’d all either gone or, so I went, I went back to the port side and they had several rafts there and I let one of these rafts go and it went down into the darkness and I thought well there’s not much point in following that. I didn’t know where it had gone so when I went back around and where, oh there was a boat about to go, the last boat. I met a friend of mine actually on the way around and so we went to get on this boat and the chap standing in the thing said, ‘Just room for one more,’ and my friend got on first. He said, ‘Room for one more.’ My friend said, ‘Can’t you get my friend on? There’s room for,’ ‘No, only room for one.’ So he got on and I didn’t [laughs].
AM: So then what happened?
DR: Well there were, this ship, I think with it being a converted ship, you know it was a peacetime liner and they’d converted it for a troop ship and they’d got it so that they’d got one boat inside another. Both used the same lowering gear, what do they call them? Davits or whatever and somehow they’d managed to lower this one right on top of the other and it was across it.
AM: Right.
DR: And so quite a number, well half a dozen people had gone down and were trying to get the top one off so I thought well I might as well go and have a go with that so I went down the ropes and having a go, put my shoulder to it and all the rest of it. You couldn’t budge it at all. It was [?]. We saw the captain’s boat go down, the captain get in and his officers and they started to go away and we thought well, you know, this is a bit odd but anyway he came back for us.
AM: Right.
DR: So we got off in his boat although after a while he transferred us to other boats to even the load out. So that was it.
AM: So where did you all get? So you’re all there in the lifeboats. Where did you get to?
DR: Well -
AM: And had it, had the main the ship sunk by this time?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Or –
DR: Well we, no it was, we were all in these lifeboats. I think there were about sixteen lifeboats successfully launched and we’re all sort of around the ship and the captain decided that it wasn’t going to sink so he started calling for volunteers among his crew to go back and sail the thing and I thought, anyway he’d no sooner done that then there was another great bang and another one, another torpedo went in. I think, I think they fired another three and eventually the thing instead of being listing it righted itself but then it gradually went down, the stern went down and the -
AM: Yeah.
DR: Nose came up and then down she went.
AM: That was it. So what happened to the lifeboats? How did you -
DR: Lifeboats.
AM: How did you come ashore then?
DR: Well we rowed for eight days.
AM: Eight days.
DR: Eight days yeah. Actually the first night it rained and rained and I had the misfortune to sit or probably, probably the good fortune to sit near the pump and it were only a little diddly thing you did this with. I was doing that all night, pumping but everybody else was baling so probably I had the easy job but we, we had to pump a few times and then after about, as I say eight days, we tied up actually, we tied nine boats in a row. It was the captain’s idea we’d stay together. I think we had nine boats in our row and there was six in the other I think. Six or seven. And after the first night we never saw the others again. They sort of disappeared but our nine stayed together. On the eighth day the, a lot of the crew were getting a bit restless. They said it would be better to be separate. We’d make more progress if we were separated and in the early afternoon the captain said, ‘Alright. Separate.’ We all separated and we’d no sooner separated than somebody spotted a Sunderland Flying Boat. It was only a little dot miles away. I mean people started sending up flares and I wondered what was happening and then I realised what it was. This Sunderland came over and circled us and dropped a few things with food in and he was in touch with the CO in Freetown and they said they’d be sending a destroyer out to us at midnight. So we sat patiently in the boat until midnight and then this destroyer appeared and we thankfully went up the scramble nets and we just sort of -
[machine pause]
GR: Life boats.
DR: I think so. I think so.
GR: Yeah.
DR: I’m not, I wouldn’t be certain.
GR: And did all the lifeboats make it to the dest -?
DR: Well some of, there were different stories. You see our nine, our nine stayed together and we were all picked up, I think, at that time, taken in.
GR: By the destroyer. Yeah.
DR: By the destroyer. Taken into Freetown but of the others some, some were adrift for about twelve days I think.
GR: God.
DR: And some were picked up by the Vichy French.
GR: Yes. Of course.
DR: Taken in to Dakar
GR: Yeah.
DR: And they were interned there for some time and there were quite a few ladies actually. Well half dozen or more. I think they were nurses. I know there was a squadron leader and his wife. Well, time expired and coming back and his wife -
GR: Yes.
DR: And what happened to her I’m not sure but apparently when they interned these blokes in Dakar they took these ladies to the border with, I forget what the British territory was but whatever it was.
AM: I can’t think.
DR: And they just set them loose and they were quite a few days trekking to the nearest place.
GR: And you never saw anything of the U-boat, the U-boat didn’t come after the survivors or –
FR: For years I thought it was a U-boat and people said that it had.
GR: You’d better record that.
DR: People had said it had surfaced and the captain -
GR: No.
DR: But it actually wasn’t a U-boat. It was an Italian ship, Italian submarine.
GR: Submarine. Right.
DR: Called the, I forget what it, I’ve got a book, a little book there.
GR: Yeah.
DR: But it was written by one of the chaps who was trained in Southern Rhodesia, er in South Africa and he actually became, he was, he’d been a foreign officer clerk and he went back to the foreign office and he became ambassador in Norway I think and somewhere else and is now sir somebody.
GR: Sir Archie Lamb.
DR: Archie Lamb. That’s right.
AM: Goodness me. That came as a, all of that came as a surprise because I don’t think you knew that did you?
GR: No.
AM: No.
GR: No. No.
AM: So you all finally get back, I mean I’ve got loads of questions I could ask like what did you eat and drink on the boat?
CR: I was going to say –
AM: Were there provisions on the boat?
DR: Sort of you know emergency rations. Small biscuits. Probably two or three of those a day. Horlicks tablets. You remember Horlicks tablets? Well we had those. They were nice. The funny thing was there was a lad from Spalding. I think he was a member of the crew, I think he was a steward or something and he was in the lifeboat with me and he didn’t like Horlicks tablets so I got all his Horlicks tablets [laughs] and then we had some water and they had a thing like a test tube. They used to bring it up about and you’d half full of that and you’d watch everybody drinking ‘cause you were making it last as long as you can you know swilling it around.
AM: Was anybody in charge on the boats or –
DR: Yes.
AM: Making sure that -
DR: Yes. One of the crew was in charge of it.
AM: Right.
DR: I forget what they called him now. I don’t know whether, whether it was his position on the ship or whether it was just, bosun. They called him bosun. Whether it was ship’s bosun or if it was just his title for being in charge of the lifeboat I never knew.
AM: But you all got back so -
DR: Yes. We got, we got back.
AM: So you all got back then. How did you all get back to Britain from there?
DR: Well we, the destroyer took us into Freetown and we didn’t get, we even get ashore in Freetown. They ferried us across to another troop ship which was actually a Greek, had been a Greek ship the Nea Hellas and we were on that coming back. There was apparently a bit of scare that it was being shadowed by a, but anyway we never, never got worried by it. It was never. We got back to England alright.
AM: So that was that. So then what happened? So you’re now a qualified pilot.
DR: Oh yes I was a qualified pilot. Well we landed at Glasgow. As the air force would arrange these things they put us in a train and took us down to Bournemouth. And the Bournemouth was run by, it was a receiving place for the Canadians mainly and it was run by the Canadians and there was a Canadian group captain there. Oh, whilst we were on the boats the merchant navy blokes had said to us, ‘When you get home you’ll get twenty eight days leave. Survivors leave. We all get it,’ he said. ‘You’ll get it.’ So when we got back we asked for this survivors leave and do you know what we got? They said you get twenty eight days. We got seven days. And that is the, that is how I got the title of my book. We had a, paraded in a cinema in Bournemouth and a group captain came on because he was welcoming the Canadians to this country and so on and he said something about, ‘Welcoming you to this country.’ He said, ‘Some of you have had great experiences in getting to this country but then life is a great experience. Adventure. Life is a great adventure.’ So I thought when I wanted a title for my book I thought that’s it. The group captain’s given it to me.
AM: So you’re in Bournemouth.
DR: Hmmn?
AM: Then I’m just trying to think chronologically of what happens next. Do you carry on with your training but go to Heavy Conversion Unit? What? I can’t remember what order things come after that.
DR: Yes, yeah from I’m not sure where, we went first to Operational Training Unit.
AM: Yes.
DR: To get crewed up.
AM: Right.
DR: Started at a place called Wymeswold and finished at Castle Donington which now of course is East Midlands Airport.
AM: Yes.
DR: And that was on Wellingtons and from there we went to Marston Moor which I’ve already told you about. Meeting Cheshire. And from there to 158 squadron.
AM: Ok. Do you want to tell me the Leonard Cheshire story again for the recording? Tell me the Leonard Cheshire story again for the recording.
DR: Well the night after we got to Marston Moor we decided we’d go in to York and three of us went to get on the bus but the bus had gone so we went out on to the road and decided to thumb a lift which sergeants weren’t supposed to do and we were, it was quite a long road. We could see a car approaching and we stood there thumbing and suddenly realised it was an RAF car and as it got nearer we could see it was an officer driving and when he pulled up we could see that he’d got four rings on his sleeve and he was a group captain. And he said, ‘Alright. Get in.’ So the other two jumped in the back and I had to get in, open the front passenger, well I opened the front passenger door and his cap was on the seat and so momentarily, momentarily you don’t know what to do. So do I, I can’t touch his cap, I can’t sit on the seat while it’s there but anyway eventually he said, ‘Don’t sit on my bloody hat.’ So I picked the thing up, put it over the back and got in.
AM: And he took you to York and dropped you off at –
DR: Bettys Bar. Yes. You’ll finish up there anyway.
AM: So, anyway, so back to the chronological order. You’ve crewed up. How did they crewing up go? Who chose who?
DR: Crewing up well yes it was, it was reasonably good. I was in a hut and I got to know ‘cause they bring in, I mean if they’re making say twenty crews they bring in twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty bomb aimers and so on and I was in this hut with quite a number of other people of various trades, and I got to know a number of the wireless operators and I met them actually in a pub in Loughborough as well and they’d got an air gunner with them so the four of us seemed to go out quite a lot together. I had to make a decision which wireless operator I had. I could only have one of them and so I selected one and so that was my wireless operator and my rear gunner. I needed a navigator and a bomb aimer. There was a navigator we’d got quite friendly with and I asked him to be my navigator and he said he’d already agreed to be somebody else’s but he would find me somebody who was, and he found me a navigator. A very nice bloke and a good navigator and the navigator found me a bomb aimer. It was funny actually because all the bomb aimers, bomb aiming had only just, bomb aimer as a, as a trade had only just been introduced and they were trying to popularise it I think and so they commissioned most of them. I think of the twenty, twenty five that we had there were only three who were non- commissioned.
AM: Right.
DR: So nobody wanted the non-commissioned ones. They thought there must be something wrong with them if they [laughs] so I got a commissioned one and that was the initial crew until we went to -
GR: Heavy Conversion Unit.
DR: Heavy Conversion Unit on to Halifaxes when we got another gunner and a flight engineer.
AM: And a flight engineer yeah.
DR: And they were just detailed to me so I didn’t get a chance to -
AM: Ok. But you got the full gang.
DR: So I got the full gang but didn’t always keep them I’m afraid. The rear gunner I had, we were very friendly together but one night he refused to fly. Well, he didn’t refuse to fly. We, we were going to Berlin actually and we taxied around, do you know Lissett?
GR: Lissett, yes. Yeah.
DR: Well normally we could approach the runways on either way. This particular night as it happened we were all coming from one direction and it was very fortunate because I got the green light and as I got the green light to go on to the runway this gunner said to me, ‘I don’t think I ought to go.’ I said, ‘What did you say?’ He said, ‘I don’t think I ought to go.’ And I thought well I can’t go anywhere. What do I do? I can’t, can’t call up the flight control because of the radio silence but as I say with the other side being vacant I just taxied straight over and parked on the, on the taxi -
GR: On the side. Yeah.
DR: The, the other side and I thought well air traffic control are going to see me there. They’re going to think well what the heck’s he doing? And they’ll find out and fair, true enough, after a little while the officer in charge of night flying was Brian Quinlan. I don’t know if you knew Brian. He came out on his motorbike and I said to my, my temper by this time was a little frayed and I said to this gunner, ‘You’d better get out and tell this officer what you’ve just told me.’ So he got out and within a few minutes Brian Quinlan appeared in the cockpit and he said, ‘Taxi back. Taxi to the next intersection, you know, where the runway came in, turn and come back again and wait here.’ Which, which I did. And when he got, when I’d no sooner got back there then he appeared on the runway on his motorbike with a spare gunner on the pillion and this poor bloke got in, got in the rear turret and that was it. We went away.
AM: And what happened to the other one? Just disappeared.
DR: Yeah. Well yeah.
AM: Lack of moral fibre.
DR: He was court martialled and it was a sad old time really. I had to go as a witness. I don’t know who I was witnessing for but I mean I, but it was, I felt sorry for him in a way because he looked so dejected and you know he’d been a nice enough bloke.
GR: How many operations had you flown by then?
DR: I don’t know. I should think probably about eight or something like that.
GR: About eight. Yeah. Ok.
DR: What, what he, I think what probably happened the one the previous one we’d done was Milan and it was over nine hours and it was in, coming back anyway, it was in bright daylight and he, I think he was a bit nervy all the way. He kept saying, ‘What’s that on the port starboard, on the port bow Paddy?’ Paddy, being the mid upper and Paddy in a broad Irish accent, ‘Och it’s only, only a bit of cloud,’ you know, and this sort of thing but you could tell really. I mean at the time I never thought anything of it but afterwards, after the refusal to fly and so on it struck me that his nerve had gone by that time I think.
GR: Because when you flew back from Milan it was complete, you flew back over France didn’t you?
DR: Over Switzerland.
GR: Over Switzerland.
DR: And France.
GR: And France yeah. In daylight.
DR: Yeah.
AM: What, what, so when he was court martialled what did they actually do with him?
DR: Well. Well he was court martialled. The funny thing was they questioned, when they questioned me it was strange they wanted to see was he actually ordered to fly. Well I mean they didn’t order for a standing place, ‘You’ll fly tonight’. ‘You’ll fly tonight.’ I mean it wasn’t like that. Just a board went up and the names of the pilot was on and -
GR: Yeah.
DR: You took that crew went and that was it but he was actually as I say court martialled. Ordered to be reduced to the ranks and to serve eighty four days detention but the AOC didn’t confirm it so he got away with it.
AM: Right.
DR: He got off and Calder I don’t know whether he rang me, or spoke to me one day and said, ‘As he wasn’t found guilty he’s still on the strength of the squadron and I don’t suppose you want him back do you?’ I said, ‘You’re right there.’ [laughs]
AM: That’s a no then. Yeah. So what did they do with him? Did he stay or -
DR: I don’t know what happened to him eventually.
AM: As ground crew or -
DR: I don’t know what happened to him eventually.
AM: Yeah.
DR: He would be posted away I think somewhere.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
DR: But it was, I don’t know, a pity, you know how Group Captain Pickard was at -
GR: Yeah.
DR: He wasn’t there in my time. He was there before I got there but he had a couple of horses at a farm there and our dispersal we lived on was one field away and this gunner was a real horsey type so he used to go and look after these horses. Groom them and one thing or another and then we [laughs] we used to ride them down to the pub [laughs]. Well we used to get on and they knew the way to the pub and so we’d go. There were three of us. One would ride a bike and the other two would go on a horse and we’d tie them up outside the pub and have a drink or two and then they’d know their own way home and of course we lost all that when he went but –
AM: We’ve jumped a little bit because we’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit. What we didn’t say was that you were posted to 158 squadron at Lissett.
DR: Yeah that’s right.
AM: So I’m just. So you’re on 158 squadron now.
DR: Yes.
AM: So the stray bod that you got did you keep him or did you get another?
DR: No. No. He, I got another one.
AM: Right.
DR: I got a Canadian.
AM: And kept him.
DR: Yes. I kept him. I was with his, one of his sons and two daughters last week at 158.
AM: Wonderful.
DR: They come over every year.
AM: I’m going to jump again now then. So I know that you’ve done a number of operations now and I know that you either have done or are going to do Berlin.
DR: Yes.
AM: So tell me about Berlin and what happened.
DR: Well this night of course with having this kerfuffle with the, we were about fifteen, twenty minutes late taking off so I tried to make that up as best I could but it could, got to Berlin and nearly everybody else had gone so we had the whole Berlin defences to ourselves and it’s a long way across Berlin and it was very, very well very, very lonely flying across it. We think there was a fighter had a good, started to attack but I’ve an idea that it was a Mosquito was around and chased him I think so we didn’t get attacked. We got over quite safely that time.
AM: That time.
GR: Yeah.
AM: So tell me about -
GR: How many times did you go to Berlin?
DR: Three.
GR: Three.
AM: Three.
GR: Yeah.
DR: It was -
AM: So, on the third one -
DR: On the third one we were, we’d just dropped the bombs, the bombs had gone and there was an almighty bang. It really was. I’m sure it was a direct hit and the nose of the aircraft just started going up, straight up in the air which isn’t very healthy, I mean it could go into a stall in no time but I just could not seem to get it to stop and I said, ‘Prepare to bale out,’ because I thought we’ve had it and I realised the moment I’d said that the intercom was dead so I thought I’ve got to do something about this. I got a chap, you know we used to take a, when a crew came to the squadron he usually did an operation with an experienced crew.
AM: Yes.
DR: Well, and I’d got this chap, second pilot. I got him to put his leg across my legs and push on the control column. I was, I’d got it under my knees like that and he was pushing with his leg and we flew I think for over two hours, two and a half hours like that and the nose was trying to come up all the time and it was just above stalling I think. And I flew along. The Baltic was on the right and I thought to myself, shall we go to Sweden? And I thought, incidentally, we were all supposed to be on leave, we should have gone on leave that night. It was an incentive to get back but I was thinking about Sweden and of course I knew nothing about Sweden. With my boyhood knowledge I thought it was very mountainous so you know how could we flying in to mountains trying to get, so I decided I wouldn’t go to Sweden. We’d try and get home so we kept on and weeventually got to the Dutch coast and we were there at the time we were supposed to have been back at Lissett. We’d got winds against us of very nearly a hundred miles an hour. The aircraft was only just above stalling speed and I thought well I’m not going to go, I couldn’t risk going across the North Sea. We wouldn’t have got, we wouldn’t have got any more than half way across. If that. So I thought, and by this time we were down to five or six thousand feet. I can’t really remember but there was a light flak battery firing at us and doing a bit of damage so I thought well the only thing is we’re over a friendly country. Bale out and we might get in with the underground and you know so I baled them out.
AM: If the intercoms had gone how did they know to bale out?
DR: The only way, actually, the flight engineer. I told him to go around and tell everybody to bale out which he did. He, and then he came back and I said, ‘Have they all gone?’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ And I said, ‘Well you’d better go then’. Of course we stowed his chute and my chute together and he was supposed to get the chute, two out, bring me mine, put his on and go. He came back and he said, ‘One of them was damaged.’ ‘So I said, ‘Well you’d better take the other one then.’ ‘No. No. I can’t. I can’t leave you.’ I said, ‘No you get in. Take, put that on. Get out.’ And he argued and I’m not going to argue and told him three times to get out so I said, ‘Well if you’re going to stay you’d better get back in to the rest position and brace for,’ I didn’t know, you know I realised I’d got to somehow get the thing down and I flew along looking for a decent, a good field and eventually, well it wasn’t long actually before I saw a field I thought I could do it -
AM: Was it daylight by now?
DR: No. It was -
AM: ‘Or dawn?
DR: Yes in-between sort of thing. Yes. It was sevenish in the morning. Something like that. And it was, I think it was lighter looking down than when you actually got on the ground. Anyway, we got down and skidded to a stop and got out and had a, well the funny thing was I thought I’d better go back and see if he’s alright and this is [laughs] this is the truth I walked back to him and instead of being braced he was standing up and he said, ‘Are we down?’ ‘Who the heck’s flying this thing?’ [laughs]. You know.
GR: Well that’s a compliment to the pilot.
DR: It was. Yeah. Anyway we got out the escape hatch and then we were having, I thought we’d have a quick look at the damage and we were having a look and as you say it was half-light or not quite half-light and he said, suddenly said to me, ‘There’s somebody the other side of the aircraft.’ And so I went around. I thought the only thing to do, whoever it is, oh and he said, ‘He’s got a gun.’ I thought well the only thing you could do is confront the chap so I walked around and didn’t need any confront, he was friendly. He said something about, I don’t remember whether he said, ‘Have you had a meal?’ Or, ‘Would you like a meal?’ And I thought, I was thinking I want to get away from this aircraft as far as I can as quickly as I can so I refused it and we walked. We left the thing and we walked on. We walked out through a village and up a country road and there was a bend in the road and there was a farmhouse there and the farmer outside so we went to him and asked if he could give us a drink of water or something and we had a drink of water and I asked him where we were and he brought out a little school atlas and, ‘There.’ And there just about covered the Netherlands. [laughs]. I thought well I was a little bit clued up about –
AM: Yeah.
DR: Which country it was. Anyway, we went in his house and to get to his house you went through a cowshed. I noticed there was a sort of hay loft sort of thing you know so I asked him if he, if we could get up there and he said, you know shook his head and talked about the Germans you know, shoot him and so on. I can understand his point of view.
AM: Yeah.
DR: So we decided, well I decided we wouldn’t stay and we got out of the house and two Dutch policemen came around the bend on bikes and they came to us. One was a young bloke and the other was a bit older and they, I don’t know for certain but it seemed to me that the young chap wanted to turn us in and the older one wasn’t very happy. He looked as if he was a bit tearful actually but anyway they, he had to go along with what the younger one wanted to do so they took us back to the village we’d come through and telephoned the Germans. And that was it.
AM: And for you the war is over.
DR: Hmmn?
AM: For you the war is over.
DR: Yes. Well, that, that was the greeting yes. For you the war is over.
AM: So what year are we in now? Is this -
DR: That was January ’44.
AM: ’44.
DR: January the 29th ‘44.
AM: So when the Germans came and got you where, then what?
DR: Well they took us to what was obviously a house which they’d taken over as a sort of place for their troops to live in and we were there most, so funny actually because they made us turn our pockets out and all this sort of thing and Lofty the engineer he’d taken an orange out of the, that we had in the flying rations and of course he’d got this orange and he put it on [laughs] and it was so funny ‘cause there were Germans coming in and poking it. You know. They’d never seen an orange before [laughs] But we were there most of the day and then they took us down to the station, local station and we went by passenger train up to Leeuwarden. I don’t know whether that’s the pronunciation L E E W A R D E N. And there was an NCO in charge of us and two other blokes and the NCO, he walked in front with a drawn pistol and one of the others walked at the side of us and the bloke with a submachine gun walked behind us and I thought well if you let off with that you’re going to get your mate in front here as well but anyway they paraded us through a long street in Leeuwarden and it was so funny I mean there were people walking past victory signs, thumbs up and there was a tram car came along and it just kept pace with us and you could see all the passengers in there doing this -
AM: Thumbs up and -
GR: Victory signs.
AM: V for victory to you.
DR: And we were sort of, yes. Acknowledging it all. I mean, it was, it was so funny really because it wasn’t what they were intending but they were showing off to the Dutch that they’d got the, you know -
AM: They’d captured you.
DR: Yeah. They got the terror fliegers and all the rest of it and anyway they took us along in to a big compound. Well a sort of parade area. It was a naval barracks and they opened a cell door and pushed us, well didn’t really push us, made us go in and there was all my crew there except one. They’d picked them all up except one.
AM: All of you. The whole lot. Did they know that they were your crew?
DR: I don’t know. I imagine so. I imagine so. And he, actually he, the one that was missing wasn’t really one of my crew, my mid upper gunner was a Southern Irishman and we were all supposed to go on leave that night. Well he used to get a couple of days extra for travelling to Southern Ireland and he’d already gone so this chap that was with me, this Canadian standing in and of course they hadn’t got him and he was the only one who did make it to the underground.
AM: Right.
DR: Apparently some farmers found him. They’d got the little pens out for the sheep to go in, supposed to be lambing or something and they found him hiding in one of these and so they took him in and looked after him for a time and I don’t really know the full story but he was eventually picked up with the underground in Antwerp or somewhere so he they’d got him quite a way away but he were betrayed and that was it. He was finished in another prison camp. I never met him again. He didn’t get, I did meet him again in a reunion after the war but I didn’t during the war. We thought he was dead. I thought he must have had an accident baling out and you know and that’s it. And -
AM: We, we spoke to someone else who exactly the same thing happened and I think the escape line, the escape line was the KLM line.
DR: Yeah.
AM: That he’d been, and exactly the same. Captured at Antwerp.
DR: Yes.
AM: So the whole lot of you there minus one. And where did they take you from there?
DR: From, yeah, they took us, the same night I think they took us to a Luftwaffe station. Actually it was a Dutch station it was about the biggest or only sort of regular air force station. I can’t remember its name. And we were in the cells there for the best part of a week I suppose. They tried to interrogate us and so on and then from there they took us to Amsterdam and we were incarcerated in Amsterdam jail for a week or so. Yeah.
AM: Where did you end up? Which prison camp did you end up in?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Which prison camp did you end up in?
DR: Well, from, after we go into the interrogation place we went to, or I went to, some of us went to Stalag Luft 6 which was up on the borders of East Prussia and Lithuania. We were there until July of ‘44 when the Russians were pushing the Germans back. The Germans had got right in to Russia.
AM: Yeah.
DR: And the Russians pushed them back and we could actually hear the artillery fire and we were beginning to get a bit worried about what might happen if we were liberated by the Russians but anyway they then took us, not all of us but I was one that was taken, they took us to, in the cattle trucks down to Memel which was in the port of Lithuania. I don’t know what it is now. I couldn’t pronounce its name now but it was called Memel. We were put in a little tramp, in the hold of a tramp ship which was filthy and we were about, I think we were about four days from there to, oh dear, I forget the name of the port now.
GR: Don’t matter.
AM: No. It don’t matter.
GR: Don’t matter.
DR: A German port in
GR: Yeah
DR: Sort of [?] When we got off into cattle trucks again and we had, I think, one night. Oh they, as we got off that, the boat they handcuffed us in pairs. I thought I was being clever and I asked if anybody was left handed so we had could have one left hand and one right but we didn’t. I got this Canadian but apparently he was right handed too but he had his right hand handcuffed to my left and we were, officially we were handcuffed together for about three or four days but we soon learned how to take them off actually.
AM: Oh good.
DR: So people were taking them off.
AM: I’m just thinking when you’re doing the necessary -
DR: Yeah.
AM: Ablutions and things like that you don’t necessarily want to be handcuffed –
DR: That’s right.
AM: To someone.
DR: No. We, people soon learned the key of a corned beef tin came handy with that. It used to be out -
AM: But where did you get the key of a corned beef tin from?
DR: Off the corned beef tin. Red Cross parcels.
GR: Red Cross Parcels.
DR: Red Cross parcels.
AM: Oh so that was your rations. Right. Ok.
DR: Anyway, we and then we got to Stalag Luft 4 and we had a very rough reception there. We got, we got to the station, or the siding, very early in the morning and it was a really hot day and they kept us in the cattle wagons ‘til about two in the afternoon and we got, got out and of course to try and carry all your, what belongings you had, I mean, for example I had a greatcoat. We were wearing greatcoats. It was the easiest way to carry them and it was really hot. And anyway about 3 o’clock they got us out of the things and we lined up and there was a German officer got up, and he, he’d got, he’d got an immaculate white tunic on. Oh really. And instantly, instantly became known as the ice cream man. But he was obviously in charge and they marched us out on to the, on to the road, lined up and there was a lot of cadets, naval cadets that came and they were all armed, all, and he ordered them to fix bayonets which wasn’t a very friendly thing to do and we started walking along, or marching along this road and they started saying –
GR: Thank you.
DR: They started saying, ‘Quicker. Quicker. Quicker’ and we were getting, until eventually we were sort of running and then we were in a wooded thing then suddenly they turned left and there was steep hill and we were going up this hill and they then tried, they were then aiming to jam you in your backside with these bayonets and of course people were throwing all their stuff away to lighten the load. I’d got a haversack thing on my back which I couldn’t take the stuff out so the Canadian who was running with me he got it open. He was throwing stuff out and we ran up this road and you could see people with blood coming down them, and I passed one poor lad I knew. I don’t, I can’t remember his name but I knew and the chap he was with had obviously passed out and he was there -
AM: And he’s still handcuffed.
DR: Handcuffed to him. Couldn’t move. You could see he was absolutely terrified the poor lad. He was only a very young lad I think. And then we got to the, eventually got to the top of the hill and turned and about a half a mile away was the prison camp and we, we got there. I hadn’t been touched actually until I got there and then one of them got his rifle up and started having a go at my ribs but he didn’t really do anything hard. He tried and didn’t. And then they called them off and we went into the vorlager, sort of first place. Not right in to the camp and we were there all night.
AM: When you said, you said they were cadets so were they just, were they teenagers or young. Young.
DR: Well I suppose they were, no I suppose they were eighteen year olds.
AM: Right.
DR: Sixteen, eighteen year olds. Yeah. But, they’d, all the other guards of their own but a lot of them, but it was, it’s always been known as, ‘the run up the road.’
AM: Yeah. So how long were you in there for then? Where are we now? July did you say? July 44?
DR: July then until February of the next, of the next year when we started on the Long March.
AM: So you did the Long March.
DR: Three months of that.
AM: And what was the worst bit of that?
DR: Sorry?
AM: What was the worst bit of that?
DR: The weather. It was so cold. Snow and ice and sleeping out at, some nights, we did sleep outside some nights. Most nights they found a barn or something like that more or less but we had one or two nights out. But one night we went to a farm and there were three large farm buildings in a row with thatched roofs and I think they put some of their own transport in one. In the end one. We were pushed in the centre one and some army prisoners in the left hand one and we were tight in this thing. When we, they’d got straw in the floor and when we laid down at night we were head to toe in a row and touching each one. It was as close as that and during the night we heard an aircraft flying over and we could hear it approach and it dropped a bomb on the, and it hit the thing where they’d put all their stuff and it flew away again. Came around machine gunning and I was lying down there. I could see tracer bullets coming through the straw you know and he hit the wall on the side and before there was a little ring of fire and it just spread like mad and it was, the whole lot was going and people just sort of got up and walked out and that’s it. They didn’t really run.
AM: No.
DR: But um -
AM: Did you, did you see it? Was it an allied?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Was it a British plane or a German?
DR: Oh we take it that it was probably a Mosquito. We’ve always called it the Mossie raid. I mean we were just guessing at that. We sort of -
AM: Yeah.
DR: I think it would be an allied one.
AM: Then when –
DR: I think there were, there were three or four of our blokes were killed.
GR: And then towards the end of the long march I presume you walked into allied hands.
DR: Well yes. We were very, it was a great day to remember. We, we were stopped in a village and we sort of spent the night in a barn and this, and I got up to make the coffee and there was Americans with us as well and I suddenly heard an American voice shouting, ‘The limeys are here. The limeys are here.’ And looked and it was the 6th Airborne Division coming through the village.
GR: Brilliant.
AM: Yeah.
DR: What a day that was.
GR: What a day that was.
DR: And they were throwing tins of their rations to us you know and we didn’t eat half of them, more than we, actually it was, everybody was just having a good time.
AM: What condition were you in by then?
DR: Well -
CR: He looked a bit thin on the photographs.
DR: Yeah I was very thin and I think I got frostbitten feet. They were always cold. We was lousy. [laughs].
AM: Yeah.
DR: But apart from that we weren’t too bad.
AM: So how did you get back home then from that, that stage?
DR: Well, they, the 6th Airborne asked us to stay there that day because they were bringing all their stuff through and then we get up to, oh what was the name of the place, what was the place where Montgomery took the -
GR: Luneburg Heath.
DR: Yes.
GR: Luneburg Heath. Yeah.
DR: Well that was the town.
GR: Yeah.
DR: And we had to get up there the next day and it was quite a thing because people were pinching bikes and cars and all sorts of things to get up there and we were a bit slow off the mark. We couldn’t find anything but we found a bloke who was going out in a pony and trap thing so we got on board there and I sat, jiggling mind you it was a beautiful sunny day. It was quite a nice ride, trip and we eventually we got to a village and we stopped for a drink. Went in the pub and demanded a drink and of course when we got out the pony had gone but one of the Canadians, our Canadians came along driving a bus so we piled on to this bus and it was so funny ‘cause there were Germans were walking back on the side of the road and everybody was trying to get a good hat.
GR: Souvenir.
DR: If you could see an officer with a nice smart hat. Boom. [laughs] No. It was. I got a sword.
CR: Yes you got a sword didn’t you?
DR: Going through a village, a great big pile of swords so I got out and had a look and picked one I liked and still got it.
AM: Wonderful. Might have to have a photo of that.
DR: Sorry?
AM: We might have to -
GR: Have a photograph of that.
AM: Take a photo of that. How did you eventually get back though to England?
DR: Well, we, we were flown back. RAF Dakota.
GR: Dakota. And back to England was you? Was you demobbed straight away?
DR: No. No. Actually I stayed in the air force for three years after the war.
GR: Oh.
AM: You were probably deloused first weren’t you?
DR: Hmmn?
AM: They deloused you first.
CR: They deloused you.
DR: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CR: You were lousy when you came back.
DR: They more or less did that when we landed. We landed at a place called Wing. I don’t know.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
DR: And I was posted to Wing.
GR: Yeah. We know Wing.
DR: Soon after but they arranged it quite well actually. They sort of deloused you and they set it out like a restaurant or café and the ladies would bring you tea and coffee and then the buses took us into Aylesbury and put us on a train up to Cosford.
GR: Yeah.
DR: And then I went on leave from Cosford.
AM: Had you been able to tell your parents? Did your parents know that you were alive?
DR: Yes. Yes. Actually, yeah, I think the Red Cross had told them that I was.
AM: Right. Ok.
DR: And the night we got back the RAF gave us forms that we could send telegrams. So we got telegrams to say we were back.
AM: Yeah.
DR: But -
AM: And that was that but you stayed in for another three years.
DR: Yes. What happened was that when I was shot down I was a flight sergeant but had been interviewed for a commission and the commission came through backdated about a month before I was [laughs] before I was shot down. So I came, when I came back I was actually a flying officer and it rather appealed to me. I thought well here I am, a flying officer, I’ve never been in an officers mess in my life and I was when I got back though and I thought, they gave us interviews to see what we wanted to do and I said, ‘Well I would like, I want to stay on flying.’ And, ‘Oh well, you know everybody wants to do that who wants to stay in.’ People who, others just want to get out. And I applied for a permanent commission and when they put me on flying I thought that’s it I’m getting my permanent commission but it wasn’t so. I extended my service for two years and towards the end of the two years I extended another year. At the end of that time I had a letter telling me that the king thanked me for my services but he didn’t want me anymore. [laughs] So that was that.
AM: Thank you and goodbye.
GR: Yeah.
AM: In the, in that three years though you were flying. Where? Whereabouts? What -
DR: I flew Lancasters then instead of Halifaxes.
AM: Yeah.
DR: Yeah I flew. I was in, well, we had to more or less had to go, start our training again. What happened you see there people there who’d been POWs four or five years so they had, obviously had to have a refresher course if they wanted to go on and so they didn’t really just make a refresher course for us they stuck us on the course that the new entrants was doing, you know, people doing for the first time which was alright. We went back on to Oxfords and I did Oxfords and then on to Wellingtons and then on to the Lancaster Conversion Unit and then from there I went to the central signals establishment which was at, we did about, I think I did a bit over a year there and Cicely and I lived out. It was just after we got married actually I went there and -
GR: ’Cause that’s the one question we’ve never asked. Did you two know each other during the war?
DR: No.
CR: No.
GR: No.
CR: I didn’t even know him.
GR: Right.
DR: Yeah it was quite an interesting job on central signals. We used to, well we got various things. There were two squadrons, one calibration squadron their job was to go around calibrating the approach landings. I forget what they were called it now. The blind flying approach.
GR: Yeah.
DR: That was their main job. We were the development squadron. We were supposed to develop, test fly new things but of course we were test flying things that had been used during the war [laughs] and, but we had other things to do. We used to test the Gee coverage over France and Holland and so on and over Wales and Ireland and so on. We used to have a route to fly and pinpoints to go over and it had two cameras in the aircraft which took pictures simultaneously. One of the ground and one of the set so that they could be compare the -
AM: Right.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
DR: But invariably one of them went wrong so they’d say, ‘Let’s do it again.’ But it was quite interesting. We also had to, people that were doing the calibrating and what not in Germany we used to have to take them over with all their equipment and fetch them back and so on. That was a bit of bind but one of the funniest, probably the funniest thing in my career was when I went to fetch a load back once and they weren’t ready. I went on the Friday and they weren’t ready. They was going to be ready on the Saturday morning so I said, ‘Well I want to be off by 8 o’clock at the latest,’ And they got to get all their equipment there and so on. But anyway when we eventually got them in the aircraft it was the COs monthly parade on the airfield. Lutzendorf I think it was and they’d no parade ground, they used to parade on the runway. So I was about to taxi out and the parade was getting on, forming up on thing there and my temper was getting a little frayed to say the least so I had words with air traffic control and then after a few minutes they came back and said, ‘Well the parade’s going to march off the runway onto the overshoot area until you’ve gone so you’re alright to go along there, turn and take off.’ So I, ‘Fair enough. I can do that.’ And they all marched off and I got along there and I turned, as I turned I opened up the throttle up. All the caps went. [laughs]
AM: Wonderful.
DR: Didn’t stop to see them sorting them out.
AM: And off you went into the wide blue yonder. What did you do after the, after you’d left the RAF?
DR: Sorry?
AM: What did you do after you’d left the RAF?
DR: I went back to the bank.
AM: To the bank.
DR: Yeah. Eventually. Yeah.
AM: At Skegness?
CR: He did one flight in a Lanc over Biggin Hill didn’t you? The first Biggin Hill.
DR: Yeah. Well yes just before I came out. It was the first time they’d done this Battle of Britain day thing you know and all the stations wanted a Lancaster. They all wanted a Lancaster and -
CR: Winston Churchill was there.
DR: And I think our people agreed to supply about four or five or something. Well I wasn’t going to do it on this Saturday. I know they didn’t put my name down for it anyway and then my boss, the squadron leader, said to me, he said, ‘Why don’t you come with me?’ he said, ‘I’m going down to Biggin Hill. We’ll have a day out’. So I said, ‘Alright.’ So that was on the Monday. On the Tuesday he went off on leave. He said, ‘I’ll see you on Saturday morning.’ ‘Alright.’ On the Friday afternoon air traffic got on to me to say Biggin Hill had been on the phone and they would like the Lancaster to go down today for obvious reasons. They’d only got a short runway and if you make a mess of it they can clear the mess up before the crowds come in tomorrow. I mean that was obvious what it was. So, you know they said Duchy is on leave. You’ll have to bring it so I thought fair enough. I took it down and -
GR: Sorry to interrupt you but when you do flights like that -
DR: Yeah.
GR: How many crew did you have? Did you have like a flight engineer with you, a radio operator?
DR: I think I had a navigator, a radio operator and, an engineer, I think.
GR: Yeah. So the four of you.
DR: I don’t think we needed any more than that.
GR: Yeah. Sorry.
DR: I had a lot of odd bods who wanted to get away for the weekend you know. Poured out when I said that.
AM: But you didn’t really need a rear gunner.
GR: No [laughs]
DR: But no it was funny actually and of course it was a big display.
GR: Yeah.
DR: The guest of honour was Winston Churchill.
GR: It was the first Biggin Hill Air Show.
DR: Yes. The first Biggin. Yeah. Winston Churchill was and the funny thing was that, you see nearly all the other things were fighters and doing aerobatics and so on and the CO of the squadron came to me and he said, ‘Would you do three engine flying?’ So I said, ‘Yes. I can do three engine flying. I’ll do two engine flying.’ ‘Oh that would be nice,’ he said. Afterwards I thought I’m an idiot because we were supposed to practice three and two engine flying but the maximum height, rather the minimum you weren’t, I think for two engine flying you weren’t supposed to come below five thousand feet. So I thought well five thousand feet they won’t see me. So Winston Churchill’s going to be down there. What the heck do I do? I think eventually I compromised a bit but I didn’t, I didn’t go the full hog down to a thousand feet or anything like that. We went down a bit below what we were supposed to do. I did the two and two on one side look spectacular.
GR: What you flew with two -
DR: Two on one side.
AM: So both on one side.
DR: Yeah.
GR: And both -
AM: Going and the other one’s not.
DR: Yeah.
AM: Does that not make you –
GR: Yeah.
DR: No.
AM: Swing around.
DR: You hold it alright and the -
AM: Ok.
DR: But the big shock, the only trouble you get is if, if they cool down to much and you can’t get the flaming things started [laughs]
GR: I’m sure you were alright.
DR: Yeah but -
CR: Would you like a cup of tea or anything?
AM: I think we’re done. I think we’re done actually.
GR: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to switch off now.
[machine paused]
GR: It wasn’t Len McNamara was it?
DR: Sorry?
GR: It wasn’t Len McNamara.
DR: No I don’t think so. I don’t think it was McNamara. No.
GR: Because Len had rear gunners.
AM: The one question I would have asked as well was just, so you flew the Halifax operationally but then the Lancaster after so which -
DR: Yeah.
AM: Was your favourite and what are the pros and cons of the two?
DR: Well I’m still a Lanc, er a Halifax man.
GR: Halifax.
DR: I think it’s nicer to handle. Certainly nicer to get in and out of and you know there was not a lot to choose between them I think but it’s on things like that that I would judge it.
GR: And to be fair everybody who we’ve asked the question of who -
AM: Prefers Halifax.
GR: Served on Lancs and Halifax they all said the Halifax.
DR: Halifax. Yeah.
GR: They said, ‘Alright the Lanc -
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Douglas Robinson
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Annie Moody
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-11
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Sound
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ARobinsonD160911
PRobinsonD1601
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:33:56 audio recording
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Germany
Lithuania
Zimbabwe
Germany--Berlin
Lithuania--Šilutė
Great Britain
Lithuania--Klaipėda
Mediterranean Sea
Temporal Coverage
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1940-09
1944
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas was in the Local Defence Volunteers before joining the Royal Air Force as a pilot. After Babbacombe, he did initial training at Scarborough and then in Rhodesia. Initial flight training in Harare on Tiger Moths was followed by service training on Oxfords at Bulawayo. Douglas had an eventful passage home when his troop ship, the Oronsay, was torpedoed by Italian submarine Archimede and he spent eight days in a lifeboat.
After returning to the UK, Douglas went to an Operational Training Unit to get crewed up, initially at RAF Wymeswold and then RAF Castle Donington on Wellingtons. He went to RAF Marston Moor and on to 158 Squadron at RAF Lissett on Halifaxes where he describes an encounter with Group Captain Leonard Cheshire. Douglas relates how a rear gunner refused to fly and was court martialled.
Douglas flew three operations to Berlin and on the third took a direct hit. After most of the crew baled, he managed to land in the Netherlands before being taken prisoner. Stalag Luft VI, on the border of East Prussia and Lithuania, was followed by Stalag Luft IV after the Russians approached. For three months Douglas was part of the Long March before being rescued by the 6th Airborne Division and flown back home.
Douglas stayed on for three years after the war. He was posted to RAF Wing and went up to Cosford as a flying officer. He attended a Lancaster Conversion Unit and flew Lancasters. He finished at a development squadron at the Central Signals Establishment. He recalls flying a Lancaster at the first Biggin Hill Air Show in front of Winston Churchill.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
158 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
forced landing
Gee
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military discipline
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Lissett
RAF Marston Moor
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
strafing
submarine
Sunderland
the long march
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1174/11743/ATylerEA171208.1.mp3
82be60320d9bed0c821a6805065d97f6
Dublin Core
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Title
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Tyler, Elizabeth Anne
E A Tyler
Description
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Seven items. An oral history interview with Elizabeth Tyler (b.1952), five photographs and a postcard to Mrs Margaret Tyler,
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Elizabeth Tyler and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Tyler, EA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Friday, the 8th of December 2017, and we are here in Edith Weston talking to Liz Tyler about several topics, but the first one is to do with the purchase of the family’s farmland for the construction of North Luffenham airfield. So, what are the original information about that?
EAT: Well, my father always said that on Friday, the 1st of September at one o’clock, they’d all come in for lunch, and two men turned up at the back door, well dressed, all suited, well spoken, and they said they wanted to acquire the land that they had in the Parish of North Luffenham, some of it in Edith Weston and that was it, there’d be no going back. Grandad said, what about the mangles? And they said, no, you’ll be compensated, there’ll be, that’s it, you’re finished, you’re not going back and a few weeks later they saw mangles going off in lorries towards the Jam factory. At that point, obviously the family quite [unclear] that they’d lost it, they lost seventy four acres, which was quite a lot in those days, and I think was little concern whether it was because grandad didn’t want his twenty-three year old son to go off to war, I don’t know, but they were successfully farming here before all this happened so, we can only guess that it was loss of land, loss of farming, loss of income, and they went through the war, they had to rent land at Manton, rented quite a lot at Manton and I believe they had some down at Wiston down as well but in 1945 the farmer next door died and they bought his farm and it all got back on, even [unclear] gave up the land at Manton.
CB: So how did they feel about, what do you think the feeling was about the land being given up?
EAT: I would think Grandad would be quite grumpy about it because they were farming, he was farming at Pilton and farming at North Luffenham and they were farming here and they came here in 1903, obviously with the view to acquire more land, that’s what they did in those days so, I would think he’d be quite upset about it, they seemed quite successful, his father was quite successful. I did read something from, can’t quite remember the year, about 1913 or 1914, there was about five thousand three hundred assets, now not necessarily cash in the bank but assets, although the property they were on at that point was owned by the Ancaster family so that was all rented, so any more than that.
CB: Cause Lord Ancaster owned most of the land
EAT: Oh, they owned the entire village of Empingham and Edith Weston, everything, Pilton, the whole lot. Edith Weston came up originally in 1913 for sale and one of the Ancasters died and then unfortunately the younger one died as well in about 1923, ’24, the next the whole of the village of Empingham in west came up, Pilton was sold in 1953.
CB: Right.
EAT: And North Luffenham, it was a massive area that they owned, so from Grimsthorpe Hall, Grimsthorpe Castle
CB: Right
EAT: Near Bourne
CB: Now, as far as the family was concerned, actually, looking here at the deeds of the purchase, of the sale rather, they are in three separate sections, that’s because they didn’t own the land right across there presumably, did they?
EAT: They didn’t. This was the guy next door, then this one, this is Needhams now, I presume it was Stokes at the time, that field is still there, it’s still empty
CB: Right
EAT: But our land looks as it’s got the housing on it
CB: Yes
EAT: On the Severn Crescent
CB: No [unclear]
EAT: No
CB: The other houses?
EAT: Severn Crescent and Welland
CB: Oh, right
EAT: The offices are here
CB: Yes. So then the airmen’s married courters is there?
EAT: Yes, it’s definitely at Severn Crescent and Welland Road
CB: Yeah
EAT: So here, I’m not too sure whether that’s the MT section now, not exactly too sure but the golf course is here now. So-
CB: Yeah, put in in later time by the RAF.
EAT: Yes
CB: Yes
EAT: Yes, it’s still there so and of course the officer’s mess. Where the officer’s mess is.
CB: Yes
EAT: Grandad always used to, we still got the stackyard opposite, Grandad used to take his cows across the road apparently
CB: Right
EAT: And we owned the two fields either side of it as well so
CB: And the officer’s mess overlooks the valley, it’s a very nice spot to be but it’s an expansion period airfield design, so it’s an impressive building but it was added to, wasn’t it, in later years for the language school?
EAT: Yes, it was, it was a lot of flat buildings and a row of garages, believe it or not, so, yes they are overlooking the fields. It seems an odd place for the officer’s mess, it seems out of sync with the rest of it, you know, the whole campus on this side of the road and the officer’s mess is near the village
CB: Yes. It wasn’t unusual for the officer’s mess to be slightly away from the main activity, but it just happened to fit there by the look of it
EAT: Lost me paper
CB: And so, Grandfather was not too happy really about it happening, about the purchase, the requisition but did he get income from doing work for the RAF, once the airfield was being, had been constructed and was operating?
EAT: I don’t think so, I don’t think there was any, I know they, I think they rented, every so often you can get a bit of grass keeping back or something and I think most folks had some land on there for haymaking, but whether, it must have been during the war, because there’s a story of Grandad’s daughter, my Aunt Mary, driving a costa car, driving across the airfield during the war and a bomber of some sort coming in, she was an awful driver and she got this old car and drove too close to this thing as it came in and it shattered all the glass in the car. So, she was taking tea up when they were flying so that had to be
CB: Yeah
EAT: To my way of thinking during the war so therefore they were haymaking on the edge of the camp presumed, I think, on the North Luffenham Road.
CB: Right. Was the farm actually, mainly arable or was it?
EAT: Oh, it was a typical farm of those days
CB: Or was it a mixture?
EAT: It had a few cows, they did some, we had a little milking parlor, they got sheep, they got chickens, they got turkeys, they got arable, they grew the barley and they grew the oats, the oats was crushed up for the animals that they’d got and they got some cattle, beef cattle so it was a typical, absolutely typical small farm of that time.
CB: So, with the loss of land for doing all these tasks in farming and it wasn’t all their land that they took, then where did your grandfather go to continue his farming?
EAT: He rented Normanton
CB: Right
EAT: Where the nursery is now and the fields along there
CB: Three miles away?
EAT: Yes, about three miles, yeah. I remember bouncing down there on a trailer when I was quite small and so that tells me it was definitely on the right-hand side just beyond where the present garden nursery is, so
CB: And that was rented also from Ancaster, was it? Or was that outside the Ancaster boundary?
EAT: I don’t know the answer to that, I really don’t
CB: How many acres?
EAT: I’ve never heard of Ancaster selling Manton, of course Manton had its own hall anyway, some wealthy folks there, I don’t know the answer to that one, to be honest with you, but I have never heard of Ancaster selling at Manton
CB: So, Grandfather wasn’t pleased about the possibility of his son going to the war, what actually happened to him? Did he continue farming or did he-
EAT: Oh, Dad continued farming, yes, he did
CB: He did?
EAT: Not, I don’t know, it’s something we never spoke about, but you know, sitting here looking backwards now Dad was twenty-three in 1979
CB: ’59, ‘39
EAT: Oh, ’39, yeah and he was born in 1916 and it just makes you wonder, it was his only son, he had a son and a daughter, it just made you wonder if Grandad was slightly panicked by the fact that he might have to go off to war but I don’t know, Dad was, he became part of the home guard, and Grandad was ARP and he what was called a school field now next door to the officer’s mess, it’s full of little bits of grenade and shrapnel.
CB: Yeah
EAT: Which I presume they, because I actually, one of my hobbies is metal detecting, I spent hours digging up what they’ve blown up and the field is, I got a bucket full of them
CB: Yeah
EAT: Absolutely chocka block with this
CB: Yeah
EAT: It was five fields at that point of course
CB: Yeah. What were they doing to create these?
EAT: Practice I presume, in the home guard practice field,
CB: Right. Yeah
EAT: Funnily enough, on eBay, fairly recently I have seen an ARP box with Grandad’s name come up on it
CB: Ah, really?
EAT: And it was found at the Newark show, I didn’t buy it, I’ve got no family to pass it on to, I’ve got pictures of it of course, I’ve pinched those off eBay but I haven’t got the actual item but it was G T Tyler of Edith Weston.
CB: Amazing
EAT: And his little, something medical on it, he was, he did some medical course in 1911 or 1912 and there was a copy of that and now funnily enough, it makes me wonder because his wife did the same course and earlier on in the First World War we’ve got, or I’m not actually sure the First World War, we got some pictures of the women in the Red Cross in the barn. So, whether that’s how they met we don’t know.
CB: No. Now the extent of the airfield is more than five hundred acres
EAT: Yes, I suppose so
CB: So here we are talking about a relatively small amount
EAT: According to this paper that I’ve got it’s 73,036 acres or thereabouts
CB: Right. Who were the other farmers who gave up land?
EAT: We know the Mackies were one of them
CB: Right
EAT: Of Edith Weston
CB: Cause their farmhouse was at the end of the far, of the eastern side of the airfield
EAT: It was. They had to give that up because they had a red lamp on the top of it, got the pictures of that
CB: After the war
EAT: But it’s at the end of the runway this was and it was dangerous for them to live there so they moved them and build a brickhouse further up which Edward Mackie moved into, Ted Mackie and his wife but Richard, the son, still lives in Edith Weston now, he’s about eighty four now I think
CB: Yeah. What, any other, do you know the names of the other farmers? I just wondered how many farms were involved. Cause looking at the map there, they are all sorts of field-
EAT: Yes, there was
CB: Delineations there
EAT: Can you stop that?
CB: Yeah.
EAT: You’ll ask the questions
CB: They moved to the, to Edith Weston in 1903 but it was rented, then they bought, when did they buy the farm?
EAT: They bought the farm on a [unclear] dated the 5th of January 1925 between the Honorable Gilbert Heathcote-Drummond-Willoughby Earl of Ancaster, Baron de Willoughby de Eresby and Baron Aveland [unclear] and it was George Thomas Tyler that bought it
CB: How much money, does it say?
EAT: Probably does but I can’t find it.
CB: Never mind
EAT: But of course, there was more allowment and this farmhouse and everything else at that point
CB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the farm was requisitioned you said on the 1st of September ’39. What happened then about payment?
EAT: Well, we assume there must have been compensation for the crops, I can’t find any paperwork on that, but I am still looking. There’s a letter saying that on the 1st of May ’41 from the solicitor saying I’ve enclosed a copy of the conveyance to the Air Ministry which you need to return to me on Friday and then on the 11th of August 1941 from Barclay’s Bank addressed to G T Tyler of Edith Weston, we beg to inform you we received from Messrs Philips Heavens and Dons that’s the solicitors the sum of three thousand four hundred and seventy nine pounds, fifteen schillings and seven pence for the credit to your account, they’ve also returned to deed’s covering the reminder of your property.
CB: Right
EAT: That’s from the standard bank manager of Barclay’s Bank
CB: Right. And we are covering the documentation on this later. Ok.
EAT: What is that?
CB: So now we are moving on to recollections of your mother and stories you know of about activities when the airfield was running in the war, because there were a lot of crashes
EAT: Ah, there were crashes, there were all sorts of things going on, my mother was born in 1926, was only about thirteen when the war started, it wasn’t long after that she lost her father, she did have to go to Sanford High School and on, it was the same day that Coventry was bombed apparently but she didn’t know that at the time, on Thursday in November, she said, in 1940, it was a real pea soup, a foggy day, the fog never lifted all day, the train that she went on from Luffenham station was late, this was heading into Stanford and as soon as she arrived at the high school the sirens sounded so she joined her classmates in the shelter, which was under the balcony of the rear hall near the shower block apparently. The siren went four times that day and virtually no lessons were taken, the last time it went it was at 3.40 just before the lessons ended. Now the teachers in those days decided that the girls that had got to catch a train might as well leave so they all trotted off down to the station and as they crossed the bridge and waited under the canopy for the train, they heard an approaching airplane coming from the Barnick Tunnel direction and the fog was dense and they all came out from the canopy to have a little look and see what it was and this plane was going over the station and they saw the swastikas on the wing and the machine gun bullets hit the station. Now, everybody ran back under the canopy and the plane continued following along the rail track. No one was injured and later they heard that the plane had been shot down in Melton Mowbray. Nobody was injured in it at all, but the next day one of the classmates had died, Silvia Smith, 13 years old, the only child of Mr. and Mrs. Smith who ran the newsagents and tobacconist in Oakham. They just presumed it was shock. And for many years the, I think mother said she could see it in 19, the Sixties or Seventies, she went to the station, she could still see the marks on the wall. So, that was that. That was that one. On the day that war was declared the 3rd of December 1939, after they’d heard that war had been declared about eleven o’clock or at eleven o’clock, mum and grandma went down to see great grandad and after about twenty minutes they came back to Manor Farm, Mrs. Pick stood at the letter box, she was crying, she thought her two boys, Ken and John would be called up but of course they weren’t because they were farming and they did remain at Pilton through the war. And Harry Pridmore was busy in the yard and he said to mum that he wanted to go and check the cattle in Marriot’s field which is down on the Luffenham Road and she said, she didn’t really want to go cause she was scared but her dad said it would be ok, he wouldn’t send her if it wasn’t. So she reluctantly set off on her bike and then she left it by the spring and ran across the field, she crossed the iron stone railway track she saw Mr. George Dexter standing in the middle of Marriot’s field, he was smoking a cigarette, he said that all the cattle were well and she just glanced at them to be sure and the cattle were in the corner field in a small archway under the railway and they heard a train coming along. It was a long train with many, many carriages, it was doing about twenty miles an hour and he looked up and saw this absolutely packed with evacuees all with gas masks on their shoulders and all wearing labels. Some were waving and some were crying. Mother, Mrs. Margaret Tyler said she couldn’t, she could see them, Mr. Dexter, he was a hard working, tough sort of man, non-emotional sort of chap, but he got tears flowing down his face and she got, she heard him saying, just look at them, poor little buggers. [pause] It’s not really part of it but part of the World War Two, the Camden girls High School were evacuated to Stamford and they shared the school, the girls were billeted in the towns and they had their lessons till 1.30 and then they did sport or whatever and the girls shared in but they moved on after a year and went to Nottingham.
CB: I’ll stop there for a minute. Now you have a mysterious one here under the title of Winking Willy
EAT: Well, my mom always talked of Winking Willy which was, well, I’ll tell you what she said about it, she said it was part of a different location every night with no routine, it was a huge rondo on a four wheel trailer pulled by an RAF lorry and all the locals called it Winking Willy. It was manned by two or three airmen and they parked up and waited for fifty to sixty planes, she wondered if they were Lancasters she didn’t know but so these planes were waiting to land and about 1944, ’45, the pilots, this was all about 1944, ’45, but the pilots knew the location, it parked on Redhill at Morcott and sometimes on the Lyndon to Wing Road at the ranglings which is a field at Pilton at the gateway. It could not come through, she said the gated road to Lyndon so it used to go to Luffenham and Pilton towards Wing and then turn down the Linden Road. [pause] Ah yes, she then tells a little tale of when herself and the land army girl were taking tea to the chap that worked for them, they were loading sheaves in the eleven acre field and Charlie was driving the tractor and pitching, Diamond was still, that was the horse, it was still pulling the blue cart which had two wheels on the rear and small ones at the front which enabled it to turn sharply, now Diamond apparently was wearing blinkers but she saw Winking Willy coming round [unclear] Corner so she took in immediately left and went straight through the hedge, the car stuck in the hedge, and mum and the land army girl were stranded. So also now as part of my metal detecting routine I do go down on the Lyndon to Luffenham Road below Pasture House onto Bob Sewell’s field and I pick up a lot of snippets of wire and he said there was lights in the bottom of that valley but I really don’t know much more about that. I know that mum tells the tale of the Hampden that crashed, it was, the farm worker was only, they had to share the house at one point, they were short of a cottage for him, so he was there between October ’41 and June ’42 and one winter’s evening these Hampdens were coming along the valley from Luffenham turning, they seemed to turn left as they came there and go over the manor farm house which is where they lived at Pilton and so that’s what the pilots told them. So they watched all these planes coming along and one quite simply didn’t turn and it went straight on and they saw it explode, it went into the field just again what they called Pilton bridge on the Pilton to Lyndon Road, I think they said there was four men in it and they were obviously all killed, now, mum shouted to the farm worker, who was having a meal of some sort, I think, his tea or whatever, and he ran down, in his slippers, straight down Lyndon Hill, mum was about fifteen or so at the time, she followed him and he ran straight into the field and, but mum got as far as the gateway and she heard all the bullets going off and she took fright and she ran back up the hill, back to Lyndon and that’s about as much as I know about them.
CB: Just intriguing, it sounds as though they tried to-
EAT: I have to say, I’m sorry to but in, but I have to say as a metal detectress, I’ve been to that field and there is not a sign of any metal anywhere, they picked the whole lot up, gone.
CB: Interesting, right. In the early days, they flew Hampdens or other planes that would be regarded today as pretty ropey but later they had Lancasters, so what have you got on Lancaster incidents?
EAT: My dad always used to talk of the Lancaster that crashed in, well, he called it stackyard, just fifty yards behind this house now. It was on a training flight apparently, on a cross country training flight and there was apparently eight on board which is unusual and I’m not terribly well informed on planes, but it came in a bit further down the runway than it should’ve done apparently and for some unknown reason it hit or it was always said that it hit a naffy tea wagon which destabilized it somewhat and the guy had to, I’m not into planes I don’t know technical terms, how to get this thing back in the air and try and do a circle and re-land but in doing so he clipped, as he came into Edith Weston, he clipped the trees, some very high trees at what we call Gibbs Pitt and he must have clipped those and brought it down immediately. Now how he got it parked into that stackyard, it was such a small area, we got the barns on the left, a barn in front of him and two big old beech trees on the right hand side and it’s always said that if it’d had kept going, it’d had took the church and now Elsie Melbourne, in front of this there are some houses on what is now King Edward’s Way and apparently Elsie Melbourne he was born in the house there, she was busy looking out of the bedroom window and she saw it coming straight to her and she absolutely petrified and then it just disappeared behind the woodyard buildings and that was the end of that. George Oliver, he was an evacuee who came to Edith Weston and lodged with Mr. and Mrs. Woolhead with his two brothers, he was nineteen at the time, had a job with Mr. Moxlow of home farm which is immediately a house behind this, where this thing crashed. On that afternoon he rode his bicycle into the paddock and propped in on a haystack and at the time of the crash he was milking the cows literally in a shed, literally a walls width from where this thing crashed, he heard a tremendous noise and he came out of the shed and he saw the plane crash through the trees and explode as it hit the ground. He said flames were shooting out between the buildings straight at him, he thinks, this was his comment, he thinks the plane flipped as it landed and it threw the gunner out of the plane. The man sat on the curve in Church Lane, he was very badly injured, George is now 91 years old, he lives in Hertfordshire and this is dated 2016, he claimed on his insurance at the time and he got ten pound compensation for the loss of his bicycle. Raymond Connington, he was in the, he was the son of the landlord of the Wheatsheaf pub and he was in the kitchen when he heard the noise, oh, bear in mind this was a Sunday afternoon that this happened and he looked out of the window and saw the Lancaster approaching and he just heard the crash and he ran down and jumped on his bike and when he reached what is now called Church Lane, the plane was well ablaze and the bullets were spraying everywhere. The plane crashed near to the barn and when they looked at it from the church, there was a good strip of grass on the left hand side which is such a small paddock and these beech trees had survived and the paddock itself was full of hay and strawcobs which were all on fire and Mrs., it wasn’t Tyler’s property at that time, it was Mrs. Moxlow of home farm, she fed her hens and when she saw them later, they were shuffled up to the size of tennis balls and the snacks smoldered for about a week. Another lady’s son, [unclear] who was Sonya Dobinson at the time, her father was in the RAF and they were lodging at Grange Cottage at one point and she said that the smog and the smoke just covered the village for about a fortnight, it just went on, it just never stopped. Winnie and George, Winnie Ball and George Barlow and Eileen Davis were all in number five Edith Weston which is now 10 Well Cross, they were all playing cards and their mom and dad had gone on to Humbleton to see a relative, all these folks, they were used to hearing the planes going overhead and didn’t take a lot of notice, until this one came, it got louder and louder and there was a huge bang and the walls of the cottage shook. They all ran outside and saw smoke and flames and within minutes the airmen from the base were running down through all the gardens across Well Cross, anywhere, whatever they could get through they went through any access to get to the crash site. And by the time George and Winnie and Eileen reached Church Lane, the road close signs were in place. Oh, and years later, funnily enough, and I don’t think I’ve got a picture of this but in years later, in about 2010, ’08, ’10, sorry about that, the barns were sold and they were taking the covers off one of the windows and they couldn’t understand when they got this timber boarding off this particular window, why the thick timber window frame was black and burnt and but that would appear to be damage from the crash and it’s the only evidence that we’ve got. That’s it.
CB: Subsequent to that, research was done and a memorial was eventually, so what’s the story of that?
EAT: Well it was, well, I decided to start doing some village history, not particularly old, I was looking sort of anything of mid eighteen hundreds to ninety, well pre reservoir really and so I went on and tried to get some photos and bits and bobs, which I did, and of course it resulted in a village reunion which is where I’ve met all these people and got all these stories from but I wrote a book at the time it was A Village called Edith Weston. It was published in 2008 I believe and in it there’s just a couple of lines about this crash and Mrs. Moxlow and the chickens and then because, you know, we’ve got a lot of RAF or ex RAF now settled in the village, what rank I have no idea but Mr. Jury from St Mary’s Close
CB: Squadron leader
EAT: Squadron leader, he got in touch with me, came round one evening, we had a little chat and decided we’d probably get a plaque upon this. So he set about doing the official RAF bits and I set about doing the witnesses and the people that we wanted to come to the service, they weren’t actually here at the time, you know, all these little lads that were telling these tales of sitting on the wall and dodging the bullets and mum and dad shouting at them to come off and all the rest of it and then going desperate for a bit of, what is it? The broken airplane
CB: Yes, bit of the wreckage,
EAT: Wreckage
CB: Yeah
EAT: But of course they couldn’t get it
CB: Yeah
EAT: Trying but these lads couldn’t get in so, anyway this is how it started, I went to see the vicar, I think Mr. Jury saw the vicar, whose name just escapes me at the minute, and we had difficulty to getting it on March the 4th cause it was short notice, it was only about end of January, February time when this was going on and, but in the end we did and we had it on the 4th, Friday the 4th of March 2012.
CB: Brilliant, yes.
EAT: So we had
CB: And what sort of turnout did you get?
EAT: Oh, we must have had forty or fifty, sixty people, I think. We started off at the pub, the service was at three o’clock I believe. Now, the one chap that wanted to come was Thompson, who lives up Sunderland direction. I’d found him by looking in the church records, funnily enough he’d been diverted off the M1 motorway and he came pretty close to Edith Weston and he thought, oh this was years ago, about twenty years ago, and he’d thought he’d take a ride past, and he called in the church and funnily enough he called in this house at the shop and the shop directed him to my mum and he came and had a word with my mum as to what she remembered about the Lancaster crash and she filled in a few bits and bobs because hers was hearsay as well of course because she wasn’t living here at that time
CB: No
EAT: [coughs] excuse me, and he’d gone to the church and he’d put his telephone number down on the church visitor’s book, so I rang him up and it was his uncle that was the rear gunner. Now, Thompson was desperate to come down for this but unfortunately on the, as this was on the Friday, on the Wednesday his father-in-law died, so he couldn’t come, so he sent a huge bouquet of flowers, which was put in the church and, but he just couldn’t come, he’s got a lot of history on it
CB: Fascinating, yeah
EAT: Since then I’ve been out to Lutterworth church and found one of the graves and took some pictures of that and I intend really to go to, Cambridge has got three, the Australian between Cambridge I believe and Kirby Muxloe rings a bell, I think there is one there, but the one up north we are struggling to find it at the minute, so, but I will get it done
CB: Because very often the burial was at the site or the, near enough to the graveyard
EAT: Yes
CB: Near the crash
EAT: No, there’s not one of them here, there’s none in, we have no, we have a couple of military in Edith Weston but there’s quite a war graves place in, at North Luffenham church but none of these airmen are buried there. Three Australians definitely in Cambridge, one’s in Lutterworth, one went back up north, Sunderland direction, one went back I can’t remember to the left, Lancashire, across there somewhere and one’s in Leicestershire
CB: Did somebody from the Canadian-
EAT: Australian
CB: I’m sorry, the Australian High Commission come?
EAT: I believe he did but for that you really have to talk to Mr. Jury because I’ve got the photos but I’m really not into the military
CB: Ok
EAT: I didn’t do that, there was a chap who came from London with his wife
CB: Yeah
EAT: And a man came from a magazine [pause] but I can’t remember that either
CB: Ok
EAT: But I have the details, I think I’ll forward them
CB: Tell us about the plaque. How did you put it together?
EAT: Well, Mr. Jury did all the plaque organization, I, he came to me and we decided on or he decided on the layout and then we changed it slightly but then it went away and he dealt with all of that. The only thing I did was pay for it. I can’t remember exactly how much, it was three hundred and forty five, or three hundred and twenty five pounds and I said, I’ll pay for it out of the proceeds of the book that I’d written because I had put it, the money all into a separate account to do something for the village, buy a bench or something, so the plaque money came out of that
CB: Brilliant. So just describe the plaque, could you? What’s it made of, how did you produce the, looks like stainless steel?
EAT: Yeah, no, the plaque was definitely Mr. Jury
CB: Yeah
EAT: It was done and dusted, I came and he bought it here and that was it, I had nothing to do with the plaque
CB: And where is it been installed?
EAT: It’s now to the left of the church gates, there was a little bit of aggravation on the fourth because we were not quite quick enough. Mr. Jury wanted this to happen in the summer on 2016 but I felt, if we gonna have it, we gotta have it on the 4th of March, it was as simple as that, it had to be done on that day and the vicar agreed with me. So, but we did have a rush so of course on the actual day the plaque, the ceremony was, the memorial was done, which as I say, I keep saying was the 4th of March, the church hadn’t given us permission to put it on the wall, so it had to be propped up just for the ceremony and there was a slight disagreement but then they found a suitable stone just to the left of the gate, which was absolutely ideal for him and that’s where it is today
CB: So you can see it if you drive past in the car
EAT: Indeed, you can
CB: And it has the names of all eight of the crew
EAT: It does, it has some logo at the bottom
CB: Yeah. Now, what other, when these things are being decided, then you get two things, principally one is an option, a number of options, as to where to locate them and the other is the opinions that go with the options so what other places were considered?
EAT: Well, it was the far end, as you’re looking at the church stand, looking at the church, it was the far end on the right hand side of the wall, on the right hand, at the far end that it wanted to go to, and everybody seemed quite in agreement about that but again I disagreed with it to be honest because to me that is getting towards the lines and whilst the chap at the lines said, oh, I don’t mind it being on my wall, I felt that in time, when the lines is sold and hopefully the plaque will outlive most of us here, so I felt there might be trouble on that and then I said, no, it really ought to come onto the church wall. I think the idea of putting it on the lines, the house called the lines wall was the fact that it can be done quickly, we could’ve done that on plaque day, but this was more longer term to me, so it had to go on the church walls, therefore you had to have the diocesans permission from Peterborough which we couldn’t get in time, six weeks paperwork I believe.
CB: How were you deciding the options in terms of, cause the crash was in the rickyard
EAT: Yeah
CB: Or the yard with a lot of hay in it
EAT: I have an aerial photo of that paddock
CB: Right
EAT: Whilst it was still a paddock, you can see how small it was, it’s now the six houses on it now, which is Church Lane, the barn’s still there although it’s now a house and converted but the original little tractor shed has come down, it’s no longer there but it was really quite a tiny, tiny, tiny place
CB: Yeah
EAT: How on earth that Lancaster landed
CB: Extraordinary
EAT: And missed everything I have no idea. But the trees it hit were only just across the way of course, very tall trees and it came down within a few yards really.
CB: And for many years there was just the stump of a burnt-out tree nearby so, what happened to that?
EAT: We assume when the six houses arrived, which I think was about 1972-ish, that the beech trees survived, the original beech tree outside number twelve, of course it’s now gone although it got a TPO on it, it’s gone because there was, I think they said it was foundations that were being a problem but of course we now have the new extension and yes the tree is gone and yes we can now see Rutland Water
CB: GPO being
EAT: Tree Preservation Order.
CB: Right
EAT: We now got a twig stands in its place. Give it a couple of hundred years it might replace it [laughs]
CB: Right, that’s very good.
EAT: I’m sorry, I’m not, I was not into that tree coming down as you probably got the drift, I said it survived that bloody Lancaster crash and now because [unclear]
US: [unclear]
EAT: No sooner done it and he sold it, that’s what he wanted, he couldn’t get a placid view of the water, you see, with the tree there, bought it there the tree quite happily
CB: No. So
EAT: Still I really can’t, I’ll find you that picture, you probably got it but it’s such a small
CB: I think it would be good to see. The, there was a service associated with this [unclear] fight afterwards so what were the considerations in doing those, how did you decide on the order of service?
EAT: I think the vicar took charge, I can’t remember what his names was, John or somebody We’ve not got a vicar, vicar, we got one now
CB: He’s
EAT: Brian Nichols has died
CB: Oh
EAT: Brian Nichols, he was vicar a long time. I had nothing to do with this
CB: But was there a committee formed to
EAT: No, no
CB: Make a decision or?
EAT: Didn’t seem to be
CB: How did, so, the vicar decided on the form of the service
EAT: I think during, the vicar, I’m not, I don’t actually no whether these men that, I think and I might be wrong, you have to see and if you’re going to see Jury, that’s not switched on, is it?
CB: It is at the moment
EAT: It is?
CB: It’s alright
EAT: Mr. Jury is not well
CB: I know, I’ve spoken to him
EAT: I think, I may be wrong but I think there is a procedure, so I think once the military folks got involved in it, the procedure kicked into gear really with the vicar
CB: Yes
EAT: John, I can’t remember his name but John, he lives at Empingham but I think it seemed to evolve at that point, I’d gone off meanwhile to get all these witnesses, trying and get them in from Norwich and Bourne and
CB: How did go about that?
EAT: I’m sorry?
CB: How did you go about getting the witnesses? Did you-
EAT: Well, there were people I’d known through the book, that had given me photos for the village, so I am pretty well in contact
CB: Did you write to them at first or did you?
EAT: No, I got on the telephone.
CB: Yes
EAT: One lives in Norwich, one lives in Bourne, there’s one just at Caldecott, the, it was too late a thing for the evacuees, they’d really gone past the point of driving up from Welwyn Garden City so they couldn’t come, Mrs. [unclear] had died, so, yeah, we all just got them together really, and one or two of the old villagers, they were like me really, offsprings of those that were there at the time, so we all gathered together so
CB: It was a good event
EAT: We were very lucky actually, just before the pub burnt down [laughs]
CB: Yes. Well, that’s a good point
EAT: It was. I don’t know what we’d have done otherwise. Probably had something in the village hall, I think
CB: Yes, probably. Well, it’s a very good village hall.
EAT: Yeah
CB: What about the church procedures, because by implication from what you said earlier there was what was perceived as foot-dragging in again the church administration so, so what
EAT: Well, the vicar did his best but he couldn’t, it’s a standard, a bog standard thing that had to be either six or eight weeks notice given for this and we just, it wasn’t, by the time six or eight weeks was up, it was well after, it was into March but we missed it by a fortnight, couldn’t do anything about it, just couldn’t, it’s, that’s the way it works and that was it, there was nothing we could do
CB: Yeah. Ok, right
EAT: So I believe, I don’t know quite where it was propped, it was propped somewhere on the church wall at the time, I think and whilst these Australian and one or two of us stood in front of it, so
CB: There are plenty of pictures supporting that anyway
EAT: Oh, lots of pictures, lots of pictures
CB: Yeah, good. Just pause there, thank you very much
EAT: We did, we did incidentally whilst,
CB: Wait
EAT: We did have, Peter Burrows used to live in the village, he used to live at number 12 Well Cross after the war, I must admit, but he knew a chap in Stamford, one of his ex next door neighbours, and this is former neighbour Robert Renard, who lived, now at King’s Road at Luffenham, he was formerly in the RAF at Cottesmore and Wittering
CB: Right
EAT: But he always plays the last post
CB: Oh, does he?
EAT: So, we were very lucky, we got in touch with him and he was absolutely delighted to turn up and do just that for us, so very lucky with that
CB: I think it was supported by the British Legion and the RAF Association as well
EAT: I believe it was, yes
CB: Yes, good. Stop there, thank you. The additional information about RAF North Luffenham is that it was constructed by engineer’s main contractor John Lang & Son and it comprised grass runways initially but it had a B1 hangar, it had two J type hangars, and three T3s. Early on it opened in December 1940 and was closed in 1998. The elevation is 350 feet and the pundit code was NL, November Lima. The first squadrons were 61 Squadron of Hampdens which came in 1941, followed by 144 Squadron which was also Hampdens. It’s significant that this, the Tylers witnessed a number of these planes crashing in the valley around North Luffenham. That’s it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Elizabeth Anne Tyler
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATylerEA171208
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:40:55 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Elizabeth Anne Tyler talks about her family’s farmland, its history and when it was purchased by the Air Force for the construction of RAF North Luffenham. Mentions various episodes of wartime life around Edith Weston, as reported by family members and neighbours: her mother witnessing, as a schoolgirl, an enemy aircraft strafing the train station in 1940; a train packed with evacuees; a Hampden crash near Pilton. She gives an account of a Lancaster crash as told by various witnesses and recounts her efforts made to commemorate the aircraft and its crew with a ceremony and the unveiling of a plaque.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Pilton (Somerset)
England--Rutland
England--Somerset
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
childhood in wartime
crash
evacuation
final resting place
Hampden
Lancaster
memorial
RAF North Luffenham
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/72/719/ARaffinE161210.2.mp3
7bd5f6ab34fcdd7a3037a24972643f55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Raffin, Ettore
E Raffin
Ettore Raffin
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Ettore Raffin who recollects his wartime experiences in Cordenons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-10
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Raffin, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MDB: Allora, buongiorno Ettore.
ER: ‘giorno.
MDB: Cominciamo oggi l’intervista per l’International Bomber Command.
ER: Adesso si parla, adesso si parla degli aerei inglesi.
MDB: Sì. Eh, cominciamo l’intervista per
ER: Io ti faccio presente adesso eh, ti spiego.
MDB: Sì, cominciamo l’intervista per l’International Bomber Command.
ER: La linea di ferroviaria
MDB: Sì.
ER: Che va da Mestre da Trieste era tutta così, un coso, e gli inglesi, di notte viaggiavano inglesi e stavano a, come si dice, a guardare, sì a guardare, a mitragliare e a mettere giù bombe sopra la ferrovia perché passavano i mezzi tedeschi, e di quello che mi ricordo così e si chiamava Pippo [emphasises] l’aereo. Era inglese. Viaggiava di notte. Era uno solo. E si davano il turno, si vede faceva certe ore poi e di nuovo un altro tutta la notte era così, protetta, no protetta, era, era, come si dice, quando, quando succedeva, quando vedevo una un coso, la ferrovia, treni correre pieno di militari o pieno di armamenti, loro venivano giù, ma solo, ma solo, e tutte le notti era questa cosa eh. Si chiamava Pippo questo aereo. Già si vede che aveva proprio il suo turno. Uno faceva non so quante ore poi un altro. Poi io te ne dico un’altra. Qui sopra il mio, nostro tetto qua, per giornate intere abbiamo visto gli aerei americani a squadriglie a sei per sei, eh. Succedeva che quando, succedeva che quando, succedeva che quando, uno si guastava allora non proseguiva perché questi aerei andavano tutti in Germania a bombardare. Qui non succedeva niente, qui viaggiavano a sei per sei e venivano, insomma portati dei caccia americani, no, le squadriglie, tutti, tutte si chiamavano fortezze volanti, ecco. E poi succedeva che qui non c’era niente, non c’era contraerea, però, neanche i tedeschi non avevano più tanti, tanto caccia da, portarci, portarsi dietro però era successo, succedeva invece che quando, con il viaggio lungo, perché questi venivano, adesso ti dico dove, di quello che si è saputo. Venivano da, aspetta, aspetta, aspetta un momento che, deve venirmi sai, dunque sì, sì, dall’Oceano Indiano, eh, sai dov’è l’Oceano Indiano? Ecco, sulle isole là, su quell’isola partivano da, tutti questi aerei, sai, ma per una giornata intera sai, eh, e sei per sei, poi succedeva però che col viaggio qualcuno si guastava, sì, o il motore o non so neanche, tornavano indietro e scaricavano le bombe. Però non hanno mai scaricato le bombe sui posti dove c’era abitazione, cercavano di sganciarle sui posti non si può dire che noi non ci ha fatto niente queste cose qua anzi noi dicevamo e ora che cominciamo a vedere gli americani, inglesi, eh? E come la stessa cosa ti dico e qua la scuola nostra avevamo e inglesi e quelli non possiamo dire niente noi, tutta brava gente. Ce n’erano di tutte le razze, sudafricane, neo, aspetta, indiane, Sudafrica, poi, sta’ attento, tutte intorno avevano le colonie, avevano, erano, poi c’avevano insieme i polacchi [cosacchi] anche e qui io ti posso una cosa dei polacchi questa che è stato un periodo che sono venuti i polacchi [cosacchi] qua, e avevano coi cavalli tutti i suoi mezzi e si sono fermati qua e poi sono andati su per San Quirino, forse sono stati mitragliati dai inglesi perché qua gli inglesi aveva più potere degli americani. Poi ti dico della base americana qua. Quando son stata liberata, prima sono venuti gli inglesi a liberarla, poi sono, poco tempo dopo sono arrivati gli americani. Gli americani hanno messo la base, la base aerea di Aviano. E noi possiamo, mai nessun contrasto con loro, sono stati smistati a fare il suo mestiere a noi ah sì anzi avevamo il piacere di vederli. Poi spiegavano questa cosa. Io vado avanti, così capiscono cosa vuol dire, quando abbiamo visto gli Americani inglesi siamo stati molto contenti.
MDB: E quando scattava l’allarme, cosa, cosa succedeva?
ER: Cosa?
MDB: Quando suonava l’allarme, la sirena d’allarme.
ER: Oh, non suonava l’allarme, guardi, niente.
MDB: No?
ER: No, perché qua non bombardavano. Venivano su dall’Adriatico, prima su dall’Oceano Indiano e andavano su, attraversavano l’Africa là, penso là, e poi venivano su la, imboccavano l’Adriatico e su diretti per l’Adriatico, sopra l’Adriatico, non c’era contraerea, non c’era niente e venivano su, e passavano e andavano su diritti su in Germania. Poi il ritorno non veniva giù di qua, andavano in Inghilterra, tornavano a caricarli di nuovo per bombardare, tornare indietro e bombardare. Perché la Germania era rimasta tutta a pezzi, eh!
MDB: Ehm, e prima della guerra, si ricorda cosa faceva, aveva fratelli, sorelle? I suoi genitori cosa facevano prima della guerra?
ER: Oh i miei genitori. Mio papà era in America, mia mamma era qua, abitava qua con le mie sorelle e mio fratello. Però mio fratello non è stato in guerra perché mio fratello, un anno prima che cominci la guerra è stato richiesto in Germania, perché faceva il falegname. Era a Friedrichshaven e là, è sempre stato là fino alla guerra. Ha sempre lavorato in Germania per i tedeschi. Poi quando è venuto indietro, è venuto indietro per la Francia, mio fratello. Però, come ti dico, altre cose. Io ho visto sai cosa anche. Che quando a Trieste, Trieste cercavano di lasciarlo agli slavi, agli iugoslavi. Ed è intervenuto perché il signor Churchill aveva proprio, come si dice, Trieste perché vada in mano agli iugoslavi. Invece sono, poi sono arrivati gli americani. Io ero a Pordenone che avevano messo i treni che venivano arrivavano e gli americani, gli americani hanno bloccato tutto e Trieste è rimasta italiana. Hai capito?
MDB: Ehm.
ER: Dimmi.
MDB: Cantavate qualche canzone, qualche, facevate qualche preghiera durante?
ER: No, no, non si usava qua.
MDB: Ehm, non so, ha qualche altra, si ricorda qualcos’altra, qualcos’altra da raccontarmi riguardo a?
ER: Io posso dire, quello che mi è successo a me.
MDB: Racconti pure.
ER: Dunque un giorno, eravamo quattro di noi, tre erano del ’25, io ero del ’26, era settembre, siamo andati su per la campagna, andavo a prender uva sai, su, dove c’era qualche vigneto. Sul ritorno, sull’incrocio della via maestra, quell’incrocio che è qua su sai, quando vai su verso Via Cervell, quell’incrocio, quando c’è quell’incrocio lì, poi vai su, vai su verso la campagna ma vai dai su vabbè, là succede torniamo indietro a piedi era di domenica [pause] siamo sulla strada, sull’incrocio, vediamo che la via maestra viene una camionetta col mitra, si col mitra, col mitra, colla mitragliatrice sopra coi tedeschi poi c’hann visto [Mimics orders shouted in German] la lingua non si capiva. Si sono fermati lì faceva adesso c’è un giardino lì, faceva angolo così, si sono messi là, sopra eran due quelli lì, uno l’han impiccato in piazza, il giorno dietro, e l’altro è stato ucciso su per Bicon, sai Bicon, sicché fermati solo ti giuro due di loro col mitra ci hann toccato armi non ce ne avevamo e hann detto ‘andate, andate pure’. Sicchè veniamo giù per la Via el Zervell quando siamo con quell’osteria là erano tutti che giocavano a carte. Siamo andati dentro scappate che sono i tedeschi che vanno a rastrellare e io sono andato, lasciato la borsa e sono andato a casa mia. Quando ero a casa mia io ho sentito [makes a machine gun noise] in piazza, adesso ho detto ‘ammazzano qualcheduno!’. Succede che quando, gli altri sono andati, sono i miei amici che eravamo assieme, sono andati ognuno per conto suo, io sono venuto a casa. Ho sentito [unclear] e la figlia, e succede perché dopo quella cosa che è successo dopo l’ho saputa da uno che era in Argentina con me, un mio paesano, che è scappato per poco, per poco. Perché è successo questo: hanno bloccato il cinema, una volta dal cinema in piazza c’era una mula davanti, era una folla, i cancelli erano tutti aperti e il cinema, erano dentro al cinema solo che arrivano i tedeschi e questa, sempre questa camionetta. E tutti cercano di scappare di qua, di là.
MDB: Ci fermiamo un attimo. Allora riprendiamo. Stava raccontando.
ER: Allora succede che questo. Che quando siamo, sì, io sono a casa mia e sento una mitragliata.
Unknown speaker: porta chiusa.
ER: Bene.
Unknown speaker: devo far el giro de qua, porta chiusa.
ER: Uno era, erano diversi partigiani dentro. Sicchè lui, questo qua che ti dico io, era scappato, e l’hanno preso, l’hanno messo sulla camionetta, assieme con quei due che avevano lì uccisi e anche lui dovevano ucciderlo perché avevano trovato la pistola. Questa me la raccontata lui. Sono rimasto quando me l’ha detto ‘lei non porta’. Arrivato lo hanno detto sicchè uno dei partigiani va di dietro per la via Nazzario Sauro con la bicicletta per andare ad avvertire altri partigiani che erano giu’ per cortina o giù di là. Questo quà prende la bicicletta, prende la strada per andare giù in cortina dentro il municipio. Quando in piazza erano lì con la camionetta han visto uno di corso in bicicletta, han cercato di sparargli, ma poi non han potuto perché c’era il municipio però di là era l’altro lato aperto. Quando lui è arrivato ha imboccato la strada per andare giù han cominciato [makes a machine gun noise] hann ucciso. Quello era un Raffin come mi chiamo io. E’ caduto nella canale, c’era la canaletta d’acqua, è caduto là. E così è successo. Hai capito, l’errore?
MDB: E se dovesse descrivere diciamo il periodo con qualche emozione, che cosa, che emozioni userebbe?
ER: Di che, di cosa, non ho capito, non capiso.
MDB: Se dovesse descrivere quel periodo con qualche emozione, tipo paura, tristezza, cosa userebbe?
ER: Sempre paura, caro, sempre paura.
Angela Piccin: Tanta paura, sempre.
ER: Sempre paura.
MDB: [unclear] Un giorno succede che le voci dicevano che sta avvenendo un rastrellamento, e la gioventù sai. Sicché bene mi dice la mia cugina che abitava di là ‘Ettore, ti dico io se c’è qualcuno la mattina presto’. Sai perche’ quando sei giovane, dorme di più la domenica, boh, niente. La domenica dietro, no, l’altra domenica, abbiamo detto, eravamo d’accordo col prete è siamo andati a dormire sopra la chiesa, abbiamo passato la notte là e poi torno indietro, niente.. Va bene, sai, la domenica dopo è successo che erano, son venute sicché mia cugina mi ha avvertito e io sono scappato. Sono andato da mia sorella che c’aveva, sopra il granaio aveva un, come una cameretta col, proprio col balcone e là, son rimasto là. Ma gli altri venivano non so, se c’era a casa mio padre, portavano via mio padre perché se non mi trovavano a me perché c’avevano una lista. E allora è andata liscia. E ho saputo della cosa qua, del, dei tedeschi in quella volta che è stato al cinema uno che mi ha detto, mi ha spiegato, mio paesano, che qua lui, lui era stato preso, sei stato fortunato ho detto perché ‘vara, perche’ era la pelle sicura eh!’ [unclear] Non era, non bisognava avere avvocati, non c’era niente da fare. Ah no.
MDB: Ha qualcos’altro da aggiungere, non so, vuole raccontare qualche altro aneddoto, che si ricorda?
ER: Eh sono quelle che cose, perché sì io non sono mai stato tanto, non andavo tanto in giro io. Perché meno che andavo in giro, eh! Perché dico anche una cosa. Quando sei giovane ti viene neanche la voglia di vedere quelle cose là, perché la prima cosa che mi ha, la prima, la principante è stato che io non andavo fuori di casa però ho sentito che è stato impiccato in piazza questo, ho detto a mia mamma ‘adesso io vado a vedere’ e sono andato di lì piano piano sul difuori e sulla curva la via si vedeva il municipio, si vedeva quello là appeso. E son venuto via perché ero, una roba, perché qua erano i fascisti. Però altra, ti dico un’altra cosa. Però anche i tedeschi, quelli che erano qua, quelli che erano qua alle scuole, per questi portavano rifornimenti sul fronte. Perché giù in Italia c’era il fronte, e quando, e questi loro non facevano niente a noi. E loro avevano un rifornimento del coso, del materiale doveva succedere in guerra. Però ti dico un’altra. Che sono rimasto male anche sai perché? Perché dove c’è il bar dietro al campanile, una volta c’era il consorzio agrario. Lo gestiva mio cognato. Senonché mio cognato un giorno mi dice ’Ettore, vien a darmi una mano’. Che là prendevano su, il girasole sai, io per girarlo, punto in bianco i balconi erano aperti e le scuole, tutto là, fuori da scuola erano due di guardia, due tedeschi, [unclear], viene giù di una piazza vestito da partigiano col mitra e con la bicicletta. Erano gli ultimi giorni della guerra, erano, sì, era per finire. Senonche’ questo qua viene giù, ti chiamano fuori tre di loro, sai, loro perché noi avevamo i balconi al piano terra perché eravamo lì davanti dalla scuola, l’hanno fatto prima gli hanno levato le armi che aveva e poi, sui locali che son di qua, l’han incantonato [?] e poi gli hanno sparato, tre di loro [makes a machine gun noise] è stata paura, caro, quello che mi ricordo. Non posso ricordarmi tutto, sai? Tante cose eh, tanti anni. L’ho detto: di queste qua non mi sono mai dimenticato. Anche degli aerei tutto. Io non ho mai visto tanti aerei come, mi davvero, ma facevano rumore assai, tutta la mattina. [pause] Ciò, andavano sei per sei sai, e tutti carichi eh. E gerano, le fortezze volanti, sono e sarebbero quelli che hanno messo la bomba atomica là in coso, in Giappone, sì, questi era, quel tipo qua, quel tipo qua, di quello che ho sentito. All’inizio era un po’ più grossi di queste. [unclear] Eh, dai caro mio!
AP: Gera una paura, paura per tutto!
ER: Le squadriglie, Madonna! E gera tuti quei aerei la! E sai, son tanti anni, non mi ricordo più tanto, tanti , io non, non mi son mai messo fuori di casa, mai! Io sono sempre stato chiuso qua, o da mia sorella che abitava in Via Nazario Sauro, sono sempre stato, hai capito? Di quello che so io, che perche loro.
AP: Perche quando c’e’ la guerra bisogna esser contenti.
ER: Noi si sapeva le cose, sai perché? Mio cognato aveva una, la radio. Era un portare [?] abbastanza buono. Mettiamo le onde corte e si prendeva London. Faceva tutto [hums the the first notes of Beethoven's 5th Symphony] era, loro ci spiegavano in italiano e se no Radio Mosca prendevamo. E sapevamo certe cose, anche del fronte, tutte ste cose. Quelle erano le cose che non si potevano sapere qua.
MDB: Bene, se non ha altro da aggiungere, io spengo il registratore. Non so, ha qualcos’altro ancora? Si ricorda ancora qualcosa?
ER: Se mi viene in mente, ti chiamo.
MDB: Va bene. Allora io spengo qui, la ringrazio per l’intervista.
ER: Sì.
MDB: E grazie di tutto.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ettore Raffin
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Ettore Raffin describes his early life in wartime Cordenons, his father being in America and his brother at Friedrichshafen. Remembers watching masses of aircraft heading north en route to targets in Germany. Maintains that bombers took off from bases in the Indian Ocean. Mentions the frightening presence of "Pippo" which bombed and strafed the nearby railway line. Stresses constant fear and recalls public executions, roundups and anti-partisan repression. Mentions occupation by Cossacks and remembers clandestine short wave radio listening to London and Moscow. Recalls the end of the war and highlights the multinational character of Allied occupation forces.
Creator
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Marco Dalla Bona
Date
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2016-12-10
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:23:07 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ARaffinE161210
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Cordenons
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Pippo
round-up
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/220/Memoro 14606.1.mp3
8d3e1cbd9bae99ffee21d313eaaaa8d8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EB: Ja, und dann ist, dann kam also, die Russen kamen immer näher, und das wurde aber in dem Deutschen Rundfunk nicht erwähnt, und das die im Grunde schon vor den Toren von Berlin standen, das wusste man im Prinzip auch nicht. Man hörte aber das Radio ab, der Westliche, sogenannte Westliche Rundfunk der kam aus Frankreich und da hatten meine Mutter und ich erfahren das die Russen vor der Tür stehen. Dann wurde unser Haus schwer beschädigt durch [part missing in the original file] jede Nacht Fliegeralarm, jede Nacht, das letzte Jahr in Berlin das war scheusslich, aber das war bei euch auch schlimm nicht, war auch viel Bombardement. Ja, Und dann, wir konnten das Haus nicht mehr bewohnen und dann gab’s die Wahl, entweder hier bleiben, die Russen erwarten mit allen Schwierigkeiten oder weg. Na ja, und dann sind wir das vom Südharz hatte mein Vater entfernte Verwandte und zu denen waren [unclear] zu nächst geflohen aus Berlin weil wie gesagt, wir hatten kein Dach mehr über dem Kopf. Zum Schluss waren nachts bombardierten die Amerikaner und die Engländer tags, also das weiss ich nicht mehr, jedenfalls wurde Tag und Nacht bombardiert. [pauses] Und da fanden wir da haben ich meinen Hund unter’n Arm genommen, neben meiner Mutter das einzige beliebteste Stück und wir sind in den Südharz. Aber ich war, ich hatte keine Angst absolut nicht, das war also erstaunlich. Und ich sagte, Mutti, wir haben da die Schreibmaschine in Berlin, also das ist so wertvoll, es gab doch keine Schreibmaschinen zu kaufen, und ich muss sie doch holen. Und meine Mutter mochte das gar nicht aber ich hab’s gemacht. Da bin ich und im Südharz nach zehn Stunden bin ich angekommen. Alle halbe Stunde kamen die Tiefflieger [makes a wooshing sound] und dann die Paar Mitreisenden, die meissten Leute trauten sich ja gar nicht mehr [pauses] nach Berlin [unclear] wieder zu fahren ich habe dann also diese Schreibmaschine geholt und dann war alle halbe Stunde wurde schwer geschossen mit Maschinengewehren vom Flugzeug aus das waren die Alliierten, entweder die Amerikaner oder die Engländer [clears throat].
NCCS: Engländer.
EB: Bitte?
NCCS: Engländer.
EB: Ja, und dann wohnten wir bei Frau Zwiebelkorn [smiles] den das Haus der Verwandten war auch zerstört, da wurde auch schwer bombardiert, weil da eine Munitionsfabrik in der Nähe war. [pauses] Ja, und habe einfach die Sache abgewartet, war nicht schön, nicht, man wusste, man wusste nur na ja, also die Russen stehen vor der Tür, und auf der anderen Seite sind die Amerikaner, wann werden die zusammenstoßen und wie ist das für uns.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Eva Brossmer
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:04:29 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#14606
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Eva Brossmer (b. 1925) remembers the incessant bombing of Berlin by the Allied and explains how she and her mother fled to Südharz trying to avoid the advancing Russians. Explains how German broadcasts did not mention their advance and how she heard the news from French radio stations. Narrates her journey back to Berlin to fetch her typewriter and stresses how it was interrupted by repeated strafing.
Rights
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This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nikolai C C Schulz
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
home front
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/446/7911/ABozziF170712.1.mp3
7231d73624122158e1222380cee96971
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bozzi, Francesco
Francesco Bozzi
F Bozzi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Francesco Bozzi who recollects his wartime experiences in Greece and in the Po River valley area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bozzi, F
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Francesco Bozzi
Description
An account of the resource
Francesco Bozzi reminisces about his military training followed by service in Greece. Describes harsh living conditions while in Germany-occupied Crete after September 1943: hard labour, scarce food, punishment, brutalities, being wounded while digging a tunnel, bombings, and Allied attacks of Italian convoys packed with soldiers. Describes being hospitalised in Italy and mentions the disruption of transport, destroyed bridges, strafing, and aggressive behaviour of partisans. Mentions a cache of arms discovered by chance after the war.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Format
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00:29:20 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Greece
Greece--Crete
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Identifier
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ABozziF170712
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
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Pending OH transcription
bombing
forced labour
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/3/6/ANocchieriF170202.2.mp3
b83e3fdf3e05eaa55090f4da0746ef37
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Nocchieri, Franco
Franco Nocchieri
F Nocchieri
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Franco Nocchieri, who recollects his wartime experiences in Pavia and Voghera.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-02
Identifier
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Nocchieri, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Andi Filippo e sto per intervistare Franco Nocchieri. Siamo a Gropello Cairoli in provincia di Pavia, è il 2 febbraio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Nocchieri per aver permesso questa intervista. E’ inoltre presente all’intervista Carlo Intropido, amico dell’intervistato. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Nocchieri, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza durante il periodo, diciamo della Seconda Guerra Mondiale?
GN: Sì, sì, Allora, esperienza della guerra, vediamo un po’. Posso cominciare da Casteggio. A Casteggio c’è una zona che si chiama il Pistornile e là c’è, c’era, penso che ci sia ancora, un istituto o un orfanotrofio, giusto? Quando c’era la guerra io sono stato lì, da ragazzino, proprio, no. Il problema, il problema qui è, era la fame, lì si soffriva proprio la fame era fame, perché sia a mezzogiorno come la sera, patate in brodo. Una scodellina di alluminio, perché adesso non è di alluminio, no, tant’è che l’alluminio veniva su con roba bollente, no. Mezzogiorno, sera, patate, e noi altri ragazzini, era talmente la fame che scavalcavamo il muro eccetera eccetera e andavamo a rubare il fondo del, il crostone, così in dialetto, della verza, non il crostone dentro la verza ma quello proprio, per far la fame, per eh. E sì, poi qui, siccome poi, sì, era ormai iniziata la guerra no, c’erano ancora i materassi con dentro, come si chiama quel coso lì, del, del, le pannocchie, come si chiamava quelle cose lì? La, la.
CI: Il granturco.
FN: Del granoturco, la pannocchia. Allora i materassi erano fatti con quello, ecco.
CI: Ah.
FN: Lo sai, io non lo so, penso, cioè eh. Comunque. E poi in questo istituto c’era il problema della notte per le cimici. C’erano tante di quelle cimici che ogni tanto cercavano di pulire un dormitorio di cento ragazzini. Che, ogni tanto, cercavano di pulire e col martello picchiavano sui letti e volavano giù tutta una striscia di cimici [laughs] e veniva poi pulito con lo zolfo. Mettevano lo zolfo in mezzo a questo camerone, lo bruciavano e, e poi ritornavano, ecco questa era la vita di allora. Questo in grosso modo, no. Casteggio. Perché, e no, tu non puoi parlare perché se parlate così, mi fa le domande lui forse io vado più avanti no, perché sono stato lì, perché ero stato preso, adottato da una persona, che era un po’ matto, allora non si guardava tanto, adesso per adottare un bambino, per dire, c’è una burocrazia che ti, taccate al tram, beh sai una volta andavi al nido qui a Pavia e o bene o male prendevi un bambino e te lo portavi a casa. E io sono finito così uno che aveva poi, eh, che aveva l’osteria che poi racconto man mano vado avanti no, ecco. Ed ero andato a finire quel, quello lì di quell’osteria a Reggio, come lo chiamavano. Siccome era un donnaiolo, aveva l’osteria no e per liberarsi di me mi metteva negli istituti. Dopo mi veniva a prendere a secondo i suoi giri così. Beh, questo era la’, poi c’è, andiamo a Voghera, Voghera, qui incomincia sempre in un orfanotrofio cui ero e qui la scuola, una volta facevano, venivano promossi quelli che agli insegnanti davano il salame e invece io a Voghera mi avevano promosso in base ai bombardamenti, no. Cioè, ero in un istituto, proprio in fondo di Voghera, era una scuola professionale che era davanti alla stazione, giusto? Voghera. Non mi ricordo più come si chiama quella lì, niente. Eh beh, andavo in quella scuola. Però di scuola ne ho fatta pochissima perché come partivamo dall’istituto, eravamo quattro cinque ragazzi, beh, quando andavamo in istituto, quando eravamo a metà strada suonava l’allarme. E noi eravamo contenti, perché invece di, invece di andare a scuola andavamo in giro per la strada a giocare, ma però, quando suonava l’allarme, a scuola non si entrava. Quindi quasi tutti i giorni era così, di conseguenza, un giorno di scuola, un giorno sotto i bombardamenti. Perchè lì bombardavano per ore, non hanno mai preso la scuola, ma gli aerei hanno incominciato a rompere le scatole. E invitavano di andare nei rifugi ma io come ragazzino, noi ragazzini ci guardavamo bene dall’andare nei rifugi. Quando arrivavano gli aerei così, per noi era tutto un, eravamo quasi contenti perché vedevamo questi aerei [makes a noise] e che, questo Voghera. Naturalmente il problema della fame, a Voghera io non l’avevo perché nell’istituto bene o male si mangiava. Poi avevo una tessera del pane falsa, ma o bene o male con la tessera del pane, ma insomma, con il mangiare o bene o male ce la cavavamo, tempo di guerra. E poi, e poi dove incomincio, boh, dove, dove, ecco, allora. Io abitavo nel paese Campospinoso Albaredo, sai dov’è? Campospinoso Albaredo è stato proprio la mia vita fino a quando è finita la guerra, no. Dunque, di Campospinoso Albaredo posso dire per esempio quando arrivavano i tedeschi, che arrivavano con cannoni, mitragliatrici, su carri trainati da cavalli, ma tanto belli e grossi, e passavano e noi ragazzi tutti contenti perché vedevamo tutte ste cose qua. Poi, ah, nel paese, lì a Campospinoso Albaredo la fame non c’era proprio come paese perché le uova o bene o male c’erano. Poi c’era un macellaio che uccideva tutte le settimane la sua mucca poi c’era chi uccideva il maiale, l’unico problema sì a volte mancava la carne, lo zucchero però si salvava coi gatti, lì i gatti ne giravano ben pochi perché mi ricordo io che mangiavamo i gatti come si mangiava un coniglio in tempo di guerra. In tempo di guerra era un po’ spinoso beh! E i tedeschi non hanno mai mai mai mai disturbato per la verità eh, passavano poi avevano fatto una specie di accampamento ma lasciavano vivere. [pauses] Dunque più che i tedeschi davano fastidio i repubblicani, i fascisti, quello lì sì, i repubblicani, durante, io parlo perché ero dentro, in un’osteria no, qui facevano da mangiare eccetera eccetera, lì quando era mezzogiorno mi pare sì, c’era il giornale radio che parlava il Duce e bisognava alzarsi in piedi. Se uno non si alzava in piedi intanto che c’era il telegiornale erano guai seri. Potevi essere prelevato dai fascisti, prelevato e andavi a finire a Villa Triste Broni e lì, beh, lo sai, potevi sparire completamente, no? quello lì. Dunque, ah, sì. I tedeschi, i tedeschi, eh dunque, i tedeschi, c’era l’osteria, l’unica volta che hanno dato fastidio è che sono venuti lì a cena una sera, erano una qundicina o più, hann cenato, tutti armati eh! Han cenato lì eccetera, poi hanno incominciato a bere, si sono scaldati un po’, eh me lo ricordo proprio, ero un ragazzino insomma no, ecco, e a un bel momento si sono levati proprio tutti tutti proprio nudi come dio li ha creati, tutti eh, e hanno cominciato a cantare e bere, cantare e bere, così sono andati avanti per un po’, poi sono scesi in una, c’era una cantina grossa sotto nella osteria, sono scesi in quella cantina lì e hanno aperto tutti i rubinetti delle botti, io ero terrorizzato perché poi dopo il Risù cher era quello che mi aveva preso in adozione era andato a dormire e m’ha lasciato da solo. Io ero terrorizzato, non tanto per i tedeschi ma ero terrorizzato da questo Risù perché poi alla mattina le botte erano tutte mie, no? Comunque hanno fatto un disastro, se ne sono presi e sono andati. L’unica cosa, no, no, no, loro non hanno pagato, no no, hanno mangiato e hanno bevuto e tutto, continuavano a ballare per l’osteria, lì così nudi nudi, poi sono andati alcuni nudi hanno preso il loro fucile e se ne sono andati e buonanotte suonatori. Che avevano un accampamento lì. Però nel paese poi era arrivato il terrore, c’è stato un momento che era arrivato il terrore dei mongoli. Perché si diceva che erano arrivati i mongoli che prendevano le donne, via eccetera. E il paese c’è stato una volta che era stato terrorizzato per questo, che c’erano, che erano poi, erano arrivati alla frazione lì attorno, non mi ricordo più le frazioni, per andare a San Cipriano giù di lì, c’erano delle cascine e questi mongoli, che erano arrivati insieme ai tedeschi, li chiamavano mongoli, poi io non so se erano mongoli, quel che erano. Andiamo avanti. Il pericolo soprattutto in questa osteria era Radio Londra perché c’era il Risù così che non era un fascista, no, e lui riceveva, tramite Radio Londra, e poi trasmetteva ai partigiani, tutto di nascosto. Io ero lì e di notte lui accendeva Radio Londra e l’ascoltava, io ascoltavo, ma eh, però era, di quello io avevo paura, seppure come bambino in sostanza, capivo e avevo paura perché se ti prendevano mentre ascoltavi Radio Londra ti fucilavano sul posto lì, non c’era via di scampo. Dunque, poi andiamo avanti. I tedeschi quando poi c’è stata quasi il fine della guerra, i tedeschi si ritiravano no e come erano andati giù tornavano indietro coi carri coi cannoni e allora c’era un ordine quasi tacito di non disturbare e di lasciarli andare, a lasciare passare perché poi hanno cominciato i partigiani e dei partigiani avevamo paura che disturbassero queste colonne, no, allora anche quelli i tedeschi avrebbero reagito e allora come tacito passavano zitto lì eccetera. Mentre invece poi qui al Ponte della Becca tre o quattro cinque partigiani, quello sono testimone, hanno arrestato un cento o più di tedeschi perché si sono messi d’accordo mentre i tedeschi si erano raggruppati lì, prima del Ponte della Becca, a Campospinoso andando giù verso Pavia, Tornello, è il paese, Tornello, subito dopo Tornello si sono piazzati i tedeschi e quattro cinque partigiani hanno fatto del fracasso, cioè quattro cinque, uno qui, uno là, uno là, uno sparava, l’altro dava ordini, l’altro così, e invece erano solo quattro, cinque. I tedeschi si sono spaventati e si sono arresi quattro, cinque uomini, in sostanza, no. Andiamo avanti. Oh, poi arriva, ah beh sì, quando ero ragazzino c’era il Balilla [laughs] c’era il Balilla che il Risù, sempre quello che mi adottava, non ne voleva sapere, di fatti io sono stato uno dei fortunati che non ha messo su perché era obbligatorio mettere su la divisa con tutte ste’ cose, i ragazzini ci tenevano, non perché erano fascisti ma da ragazzini avere una divisa così, poi, invece io sono stato esonerato però io ero, c’era la sede dei fascisti era proprio a fianco della osteria dove, che l’osteria era responsabile di quel locale, un grande salone, che poi, finito la guerra è servito come balera insomma, no, e lì c’era una biblioteca con diversi fucili e la biblioteca io prendevo i libri, mi piaceva leggere, no, libri del Salgari allora eh, e poi i fucili, mi divertivo con i fucili, li prendevo, andavo fuori nell’orto, sparare così, racconto cose così, siccome hai detto di raccontare e io racconto quel che mi viene in mente, no, poi comincia la Radio Londra l’ho detto no? . Ecco, per cominciare la, i bombardamenti, ecco, qui sì, dunque. Bombardamenti io mi ricordo che incominciavano a arrivare i caccia quattro cinque caccia, facevano un bordello di quei bordelli, ma come quando passano quelli aerei supersonici, lì, i Tornado, ecco, era quel rumore lì, ne arrivavano quattro cinque insieme, tutti [unclear] e arrivavano all’improvviso no e giravano sempre intorno a il Ponte della Becca, prendevano verso Pavia ah, eh non mi ricordo più, beh, c’era un posto che era una polveriera, una polveriera grossa, adesso sono tutte case, non so se sai dov’è, allora, passi il Ponte della Becca, vai avanti, poi c’è la strada, beh insomma è un punto che c’è una grande curva che poi sono ritrovati arrivi a Pavia il [unclear], una volta era Darsu, una grande curva, la strada che va giù, una grande curva, orca, non mi ricordo più i nomi, prendi la cartina e vedi. Beh, adesso son tutti villette, case, lì c’era la polveriera, e questi caccia giravano intorno al Ponte della Becca e a quella polveriera lì perché lì i tedeschi avevano messo giù la contraerea e la contraerea, quando arrivavano i caccia, sparava ma poi un bel momento i caccia lo facevano tacere [laughs] mi sono spiegato, se no, sì, piombavano e bombardavano anche, no. Per esempio, il Ponte della Becca l’hanno bombardato un centinaio di volte, l’hanno mai buttato giù, lo foravano, l’hanno buttato giù i caccia l’ultimo giorno di guerra. E allora sono andati giù, hann buttato giù i piloni di là, un pilone e una volta sul Ponte della Becca io giravo con la bicicletta e avevo un’anguria di dietro. Venivo verso Broni e l’hann bombardato io c’ero sopra, l’hann bucato però non mi sono fatto niente. Ho portato a casa un anguria intera [laughs]. Ponte della Becca. Arrivano i caccia. Quando i caccia erano riusciti a fare tacere l’artiglieria, allora arrivavano i bombardieri. Arrivavano parecchi, no, quattro cinque qui, quattro cinque là, avevano un rumore poi anche strano, una cosa e lì lanciavano giù le bombe sul Ponte della Becca, sul, su quella polveriera lì e sul Ponte del Ticino e noi ragazzi dei genitori non ce ne siamo neanche accorti dalle case perché i caccia mitragliavano eh, non scherzavano mica, facevano di quelle mitragliate e noi invece fuori a guardare perché era, ci piaceva vedere, no. Erano tremendi quei, quelli lì, quei caccia lì erano americani, non so qual’è, però erano anche cattivi perché per esempio correvano dietro a chi andava in bicicletta. Se vedevano una bicicletta sulla strada, quella la facevano fuori. C’era uno lì che era un sordomuto che andava in giro con un carretto con i buoi, carro con i buoi no, ma lui non sentiva, andava tranquillo [laughs]. L’hanno fatto fuori, proprio. Erano tremendi eh! Sparavano, andavano di quà, li sentivi e vedevi proprio le mitragliate che se vedevano sulla strada era verso sempre le quattro, tre e mezza, le quattro, se vedevano qualcuno sulla strada, quello aveva finito di vivere. I caccia, i bombardieri no, i bombardieri buttavano giù le loro bombe poi le vedevi poi eh, poi se ne andavano e via. Tutti i giorni, più o meno tutti i giorni, ma per un bel po’ eh. La polveriera l’hann fatta saltare parecchie volte che poi da Campospinoso Albaredo si vedevano proprio le fiamme, che venivano su, le botte via eccetera no. Eh, sempre in fatto di bombardamenti, il Pippo, famoso Pippo, no, che, quello proprio l’ho vissuto in pieno io, il famoso Pippo, no, che arrivava lì, lì le luci, se vedevano un lumino era, era, [laughs], e il Pippo arrivava alla sera sempre a un certo orario e buttava giù, questo lo posso testimoniare bene, buttava giù degli oggetti come delle navi, ne avevo una io, navi in miniatura, ma belle eh, io ne avevo una, disinnescata me l’avevano, erano proprio anche fatte bene, oppure aeroplanini oppure penne stilografiche e naturalmente Pippo le buttava giù, no, oltre che prendere le luci, se vedeva una luce, un lucino, appena appena, si accendeva un fiammifero, quello lì lo vedeva, era tremendo e buttava giù sti oggetti e noi naturalmente da ragazzini incoscienti andavamo a raccoglierli. Poi siamo stati avvisati che. Comunque c’è stato, questo lo racconto perché mi è sempre poi rimasto anche in mente. C’è stato un ragazzino della mia età no, eravamo sempre in gruppo, no, e ha raccolto un bordello di queste cose qui. Non sapevamo ancora che avevano questo effetto e ha raccolto e si è messo nella testa di andare a pescare. Buttandole dentro secondo noi, no, buttandole scoppiavano. E difatti siamo andati in riva al Po e io non so qui e lì sempre ci siamo sparsi per venire ed il pesce così così, lui è rimasto da solo e buttava dentro queste cose qui. E poi un bel momento una è scoppiata, l’ha fatto scoppiare queste, l’han raccolto su col cucchiaio quel ragazzino lì. E’ scoppiato anche lui, tutto un. Bene. Disgrazia vuole che fanno il funerale a questo ragazzo, tutto una fila, il paese Campospinoso aveva, c’era una strada dritta che andava a Baselica, un paesino lì, una frazione, un paesino, allora era una frazione, dove c’era il cimitero. Su quella strada lì vuoi mica dire che arriva, che arrivi i caccia proprio mentre c’è il funerale un fuggi fuggi generale nei fossi hanno mitragliato la cassa perché poi non c’erano i carri, la macchina, quando facevano un funerale portavano tutto a spalla no, e quello che avevano, portavano in spalla sto ragazzino che poi c’era dentro della carne tutta maciullata l’hann messo giù, preso in mezzo alla strada, son scappati nei fossi, hanno mitragliato anche la cassa, l’hann forata in un modo, una mitragliata di quelle lì, no, quando sono andati via poi hanno continuato il funerale con tutta sta cassa rotta. Mah, niente. Ecco questa, la storia, questa era del Pippo. Dunque, ecco, quindi, maciullato durante il funerale. Ponte Becca, dunque, poi io non so cosa devo raccontare ancora, fame no, della Becca. Ah sì, io, per mangiare, io come ragazzino sempre su ordine di quel pazzo, io lo chiamo pazzo, mi mandava a prendere il formaggio ad Albuzzano. Albuzzano c’era uno che aveva, allevava maiali, aveva una specie, faceva del formaggio, il burro, e io, ecco da Campospinoso andavo in bicicletta ad Albuzzano. Però io ero sempre terrorizzato perché alla fine del Ponte della Becca c’erano sempre lì i tedeschi che fermavano tutti, chi era in bicicletta magari gliela portavano via e io passavo lì col zaino e [pauses] non mi hanno mai fe rmato né niente e che quando tornavo col zaino dietro, con il formaggio, specie di formaggio, il formaggio, il burro eccetera, quelle cose lì, avevo il terrore che mi fermassero, non tanto il terrore dei tedeschi quanto per il Risù, quello lì era il motivo che poi prendevo un bordello di botte perché avevo avevo preso tante, se la prendeva con me mica coi tedeschi quello lì, ecco. Non mi hanno mai fermato, sono sempre passato avanti e indietro, quasi tutte le settimane con la mia scorta di formaggio, me la sono cavata così. Andiamo avanti. Ecco, poi allora qui siamo già [pauses] per tenere, c’era andavo a Stradella con la bicicletta a prendere il ghiaccio perché allora per tenere fresca la roba c’erano dei piccoli frigoriferi, scatoloni, mettevi dentro il ghiaccio e sempre con il pericolo dei caccia eh, perché, però me la sono sempre cavata fuori. Poi, vediamo un pò, andiamo avanti, eh!, E poi comincia la, i partigiani. Dunque, nei partigiani, è successo che, era tutto su lì, Cigognola, sulle zone, , sulle colline di Broni, no, Cigognola, tutti quei posti lì, partigiani del paese, ero andato su a fare il partigiano, no, però l’inverno [laughs] faceva freddo e sulle colline non vivevo e allora sono ritornato al paese, c’era un segretario che si chiamava podestà, podestà, era una brava persona e invece di farli, arrestare è andato d’accordo con i tedeschi in modo che, hanno, c’era, hanno organizzato la Todt, si chiamava la Todt, per fare le trincee sull’argine del Po, che era divertimento per noi ragazzi perché ci andavamo dentro poi a giocare, no, e hann fatto la Todt tutti sti giovani sono andati lì se la sono cavata fuori, però poi sono saltati fuori i fascisti, quelli sono diventati pericolosi più, ma di un bel po’ più dei tedeschi che poi era venuto un po’ anche l’odio, sai com’è, no. C’è stato un giorno che io ero a Broni e tornavo verso il paese. Quando sono arrivato davanti al cimitero di Broni, quattro cinque partigiani, no, fascisti, fascisti, quattro cinque fascisti mi, m’hann fermato, ero ragazzino, mi hanno fermato e mi hanno detto: ’Vieni, vieni qui perché tu sarai testimonio di quello che facciamo’. E lì c’era la ferrovia, sotto lì c’era la ferrovia, c’erano, cosa sarà stato, una quindicina di giovanotti, vero, e quattro e quattr’otto li hanno uccisi tutti e io ho visto, proprio visto, no, che coi mitra, lo Sten, avevano lo Sten loro, una specie di mitra che era lo Sten, tutto vuoto così, li hann fucilati e ‘adesso tu vai in paese e avvisi che noi abbiamo fatto questo’ e io sono andato in paese e ho detto: ’guarda, i hanno fatto questo e questo’. E c’erano dentro dei giovanotti del paese di Campospinoso Albaredo quello, che quello mi è rimasto impresso anche quello. Dunque, poi, e poi basta [pauses] e adesso io più o meno io ho raccontato quello che mi è venuto in mente poi non lo so, adesso sta a voi farmi le domande.
FA: Come, vuole dirci come si chiamava quello che lei chiama Risù, di nome?
FN: Ah, beh è morto, sì, Bruschi Alessandro. Quello lì, sì, era tremendo quello lì, è stato proprio il mio carnefice sotto un certo aspetto, no, poi dopo io un bel momento quando sono arrivato a quindici anni non ce l’ho più fatta.
CI: Fiorentini non l’hai mai visto?
FN: Fiorentini?
CI: Fiorentini, la belva, quello che comandava?
FN: Ah, sì, sì, ecco, questo potevo, questo era di Varzi, quello lì, o no? Bravo, quello l’ho visto. Cioè l’hanno fatto passare per il paese di Broni anche dentro una gabbia con un carro tirato dai buoi fino a Pavia e lui era dentro e naturalmente quando passava per il paese chi con l’ombrello, chi sputava, chi, quello l’ho visto sì. Fiorentini deve essere stato. Sì, sì, sì, sì. Poi dopo tutto questo, questo Risù, quando sono arrivato a quindici anni, poi non ce l’ho più fatta perché lui, lui picchiava sempre, no, e allora mi sono ribellato e sono scappato, via. Lui ha chiamato i carabinieri, carabinieri sono venuti da me, ma io detto: ’quello non è mio padre, se mi portate indietro poi io scappo ancora’. E i carabinieri allora, si sono fatti vedere una volta, non mi hanno mica detto più niente. Poi dopo io ho fatto tutta un’altra vita che poi sono entrato nell’Artigianelli, ma la guerra era finita oramai. Io gli Artigianelli li ho fatti, sì proprio alla fine della guerra. Perchè dopo io sono andato, ho trovato tutti bei genitori lì, poi è stata lunga la faccenda, no, tutto lì.
FA: E quando bombardavano il Ponte della Becca, la polveriera, era di giorno quindi?
FN: Sempre di giorno, i caccia e i bombardieri, sempre di giorno, sempre nel pomeriggio, più o meno dalle tre e mezza alle quattro, praticamente tutti i giorni quelli arrivavano, prima i caccia che facevano un bordello che durava anche una bella mezz’ora e più, che andavano e poi tornavano, andavano [makes a droning noise] facevano poi non li sentivi più, poi tornavano e facevano diversi giri. Poi veniva un silenzio mortale perché poi dopo bisognava raccogliere i cocci, per dire, no, per vedere i disastri che facevano, no, e poi toccavano, e allora poi arrivavano i bombardieri che li sentivi proprio da lontano, facevano anche rumore [makes a droning noise] impressionava anche se, tra l’altro, no, e bombardavano quasi sempre sempre sempre. Come arrivavano i bombardieri dopo bombardavano. La contraerea veniva messa a tacere, vero, e allora i bombardieri arrivavano tranquilli, anche il Pippo, la contraerea non riusciva mai a fare niente perché puntavano quei famosi fari, no, un po’ ma non lo buscavano mai perché poi tra l’altro Pippo veniva, girava sopra a bassa quota. Si credeva sempre che era in alto, no, ma invece era sempre a bassissima quota Pippo anzi sì, se era un giorno o una notte con la luna così rischiavi di vederlo, se era buio buio non lo vedevi però se era lo vedevi proprio, sempre a bassa quota è stato Pippo. La gente ha sempre creduto che era in alto, chissà dove, ecco perché la contraerea non è mai riuscito a prendere quegli aeroplani lì che loro con i fari andavano in alto ma lui era in basso. Non so più cosa dire.
FA: E’ mai riuscito a vederlo lei?
FN: Sì, sì. Ah io, poi tra l’altro ero curioso, ero tremendo, ero un po’ il capogruppo di sti giovanotti, quei ragazzotti lì, no, e anche quando arrivava Pippo io scappavo fuori dall’osteria così e di notte per vedere eccetera, non stavo fermo un minuto, sono riuscito a vederlo sì, parecchie volte. Sempre di sfuggita eh. [unclear] Dava un senso che era sempre lì invece era dappertutto. Correvi da una parte lo sentivi di là, correvi dall’altra lo sentivi, era sempre, magari, magari erano anche in due o tre, di quei aerei, però dava il senso sempre di uno, il Pippo, così chiamato, così famoso, per noi ragazzi era una, era quasi una, ma ci piaceva anche per dire, non ci rendevamo conto del pericolo, per quello che.
FA: Non avevate paura?
FN: No non, io non ho mai avuto paura, no no no. Io l’unica cosa che avevo paura era Radio Londra, Radio Londra.
CI: Posso parlare?
FN: Parla!
CI: Tant’è vero che Pippo avevamo pensato che a un certo momento che non era uno, erano in tanti.
FN: Sì eh.
CI: Si trovano dappertutto. Lui lo conoscevano tutti, lo vedevano tutti in tutti i posti, sempre lo stesso orario.
FN: Sì, sì, erano tanti.
CI: A un certo momento, ma sono in tanti, non può essere solo uno.
FN: Per noi era.
CI: E’ qui, è là, era, è dappertutto.
FN: Cioè per noi, peri noi tutti, anche la gente così, era uno, difatti, Pippo era uno. Però chissà quanti erano in giro perché il rumore era sempre quello, in qualsiasi angolo dove andavi, sentivi sempre quel rumore lì, quindi erano in tanti. Però era uno. Come dire [unclear], loro facevano il loro dovere, no. Gli adulti avevano paura, ma noi ragazzi no, neanche dei caccia così, noi non avevamo paura. Per noi era un soprappiù, era vorrei quasi dire un divertimento, un divertimento perché era anche un po’ una novità vedere sti bolidi, quegli apparecchi, il baccano, poi le mitragliate, perché vedi, ci sono state parecchie volte che vedevi proprio le pallottole che viaggiavano davanti a te perché quelli lì. E c’era la lomba, ecco qui, lo sfollamento, Milano, i Milanesi che si scaricavano proprio a Broni, tutti quei posti lì, no. C’era la Lombarda, che era la società di corriere, era così famosa, le corriere che andavano a Carbonella doppie col mantice in mezzo, quelle sempre puntuali alle sei, non sono mai state bombardate né mitragliate, si capisce che forse c’era una specie di accordo perché partivano da Milano, venivano a Pavia e se, erano sempre un quattro cinque corriere, neh, doppie, alle sei Campospinoso Albaredo alle sei passavano, si fermavano all’osteria perché si fermavano a bere eccetera eccetera, no, cariche anche fin sopra, andavano a Carbonella ma quelle cariche di persone, uomini, donne, di tutti i colori, arrivavano e andavano verso Broni, Stradella, così, la Lombarda si chiamava, sai perché quello me lo ricordo! Però non sono mai stati mitragliati. Mitragliavano uno in bicicletta, per dire, mentre quelli lì non li hanno mai, mai, mai toccati. Si capisce che, come ho detto, o era un accordo o sapevano che erano sfollati perché gli aerei li vedevano quelli lì eh perché erano grossi così quelle corriere, non so se c’è ancora quella società lì a Milano la Lombarda, non lo so. Però era quella insomma. Fate domande voialtri vi rispondo.
FA: Invece quando era a Voghera che era più piccolo, andavano sulla stazione?
FN: Solo sulla stazione.
FA: Solo lì.
FN: I caccia. Solo sulla stazione, almeno io, per me era quello. Ma però mica sempre bombardavano. Passavano tutti i giorni praticamente perché noi partivamo lì da quell’istituto lì, sì, traversavamo, perché era proprio l’inizio dove c’era, non so se il prato con le carceri, le carceri, davanti c’era quell’orfanotrofio lì, traversavamo tutto Voghera, e suonava, quando eravamo a metà Voghera, a metà strada, suonava l’allarme, che noi l’aspettavamo, cioè noi ragazzini andavamo a scuola, speriamo che suona l’allarme, speriamo che suona, la scuola, suonava l’allarme e loro, sai, tutta la gente scappava nei rifugi. , Noi invece scappavamo, quel fiume, no il fiume, fiumiciattolo, era cioè la Staffora, quando era in piena era tremendo, la Staffora c’era, c’era, c’è ancora, no, scappavamo lì, giocavamo lì, a tirare sassi. E lì bombardavano o se non altro passavano per spaventare più che altro. Naturalmente le scuole venivano sospese e noi siamo sempre stati promossi lo stesso. C’era la maestra di italiano che era una sfegatata, una fascista, beh stavo dicendo, una [unclear], una fascista ma era brava come e nell’esame finale, per essere promosso, mi ha chiamato: ‘Nocchieri!’. Bisognava alzarsi in piedi sull’attenti perché allora che eran tutti , e ‘chi sei tu?’, eh beh non so neanche come mi e’ venuto in mente: ‘sono un italiano e amo la mia patria’, seduto, promosso. Io sono stato promosso in italiano con quella frase lì [laughs]. Per dire no, e ora c’era un maestro, un insegnante, era un prete, lo chiamavamo Bà. Bà, l’era cattivo, aveva sempra una verga in mano. Bà se non sapeva, non rispondeva, ti chiamava davanti a lui, con la verga, ti faceva mettere le mani cos’ì, no, e poi ti picchiava il Bà. Se per disgrazia tu facevi così ne prendevi dieci volte il doppio. Diventava cattivo, picchiava, però ai ragazzi, c’erano dei ragazzi che venivano dalla campagna, no, e li mandava fuori dalla scuola scavalcando un muro a prendere, farsi dare una gallina, o le uova, e quelli erano fortunati perché quelli che avevano la cascina, che avevano le galline, andavano a casa, prendevano la gallina e gliela portavano, invece io, con altri, eravamo un quattro cinque, dell’orfanotrofio, dove andavamo a prendere le galline e insomma io, alzo la mano, vado a prendere e mi ha lasciato andare io e un altro e quando siamo rimasti fuori dalla scuola, e adesso cosa facciamo, dove, come facciamo a portare una gallina, quello se, se non portiamo una gallina ci da tante di quelle botte, stiamo, e noi siamo andati a rubare le galline [laughs], beh in un pollaio abbiamo rubato le galline abbiamo, sai, le avventure della scuola. Della guerra perché quello lì si capisce che aveva sempre fame, no, e allora lo mandava, non poteva andare fuori adesso viene neanche da parlare, ma allora e vabbè, c’è chi mandava a prendere le uova o bene o male bisognava tornare indietro con qualche cosa e allora noi, per non essere interrogati o giù di lì, chiedevamo di andare fuori di scuola ma per noi era brutta perché non avevamo i genitori, la cascina, loro, bisognava andare raccontando, c’era un ragazzo che era diventato, ma quello era grande, cleptomano, tutti i giorni andava dentro in qualche negozio e rubava o un salame o delle scatole di marmellata o rubava, o lo zucchero, rubava sempre un bordello, noi lo sapevamo, quando arrivava in istituto, cioè un collegio non era un istituto, ero, , arrivava in collegio, gli buttevamo su una mantella sulla testa, gli portavamo via tutto [laughs] e lui il giorno dopo era daccapo, tanto per divertimen to, per dire! . Sì perché c’era l’orfanotrofio c’erano i maschi da una parte e le femmine dall’altra e naturalmente noi maschi quelle, [laughs] le femmine le erano un po’, su, mi spiego, e allora cercavamo di andare di nascosto dalle femmine ma c’erano sempre le suore che ci bloccavano e le studiavamo in tutti i modi per cercare di andare di là. Le avventure di istituto. E in tempo, sì in tempo di guerra lì, ecco, c’era un orto grandissimo lì dietro l’istituto in cui si erano piazzati, hann messo giù le tende tutto, gli indiani, mi viene in mente adesso, un accampamento di indiani. Dall’alto dell’istituto si vedeva questo accampamento. E noialtri, io sempre in testa perché le combinavo sempre, le tende eravamo convinti che c’era qualche cosa di buono, del cioccolato, così, e allora buttavamo giù i cuscini in quell’accampamento lì l’inizio, però per andare là bisognava passare dove c’era il reparto delle femmine, e o bene o male aspettavamo che passassero suore, c’erano delle suore un po’ anzianotte, e quando passava una suora, due o tre sotto là e zac!. E c’è stato un giorno che abbiamo portato via un sacco, no, due o tre sacchi di roba così. Eravamo convinti che era zucchero, li abbiamo portati su nelle camerate e poi quando li abbiamo aperti era tutto pepe e allora pepe dappertutto, un disastro solo, da ragazzi, mi è venuto in mente adesso. Li indiani, c’erano anche indiani in tempo di guerra, sì, sì, me lo ricordo, il pepe, lì eccetera. Avevo una bomba a mano io. C’era uno del mio paese che è stato chiamato a fare il militare e allora era stato traferito lì nella ferrovia, la stazione di dietro lì[unclear], le ferrovie insomma ecco, faceva il militare lì. Io quando ho saputo che era lì, allora andavo a trovarlo con un altro compagno così, perché ho detto, la fame non era un problema ma c’erano dei momenti che facevi la fame anche lì, no, la fame è la fame! E allora quando andavo lì a trovare questo amico, diciamo così del paese, preparava sempre qualcosa da mangiare, ci dava da mangiare sempre in due, traversavamo tutti i binari, nessuno ci diceva niente, traversavamo i binari, andavamo lì, ci dava da mangiare. E un giorno mi ha dato una bomba a mano, la Balilla, si chiamavano Balilla quelle lì, e me l’ha data lui e ero diventato il padrone dell’istituto con quella Balilla, del collegio con quella Balilla lì. Poi lo sapevano tutti che l’avevo e allora tutti avevano paura di me [laughs]. Poi un bel momento glielo data indietro perché mi aveva spiegato di non tirare questa qui, se no scoppiava e allora poi glielo data indietro. Tempo di guerra, eh. Dunque, sì poi c’era quello lì, l’ho detto, accennato, che ecco, di qui anche i ragazzi avevano paura. C’era la Villa Triste a Broni. Proprio dove c’è la piazza a Broni grande lì c’è ancora quella villa lì. Ecco, lì è dove entravano dentro e sparivano. Uccidevano eccetera, la chiamavano Villa Triste, che l’aveva in mano prima i tedeschi poi i fascisti. Eh ma, soprattutto quando l’hanno presa i fascisti, allora lì sparivano parecchie persone, anche del mio paese ne sono sparite diversi. Quelli li uccidevano o chissà ecco. Di questa qui da ragazzino, che da ragazzino avevamo paura difatti io andavo a Broni sempre mandato a prendere qualcosa dal Risù, da fare le spese e via eccetera, io poi soldi ne avevo in abbondanza perché li prendevo dove c’erano, c’era, erano nell’osteria, no, sapevo anch’io che, e c’era un cassetto con i soldi che prendevo, io ne prendevo solo una manciata, mettevo in tasca, andavo a Broni, Stradella, andavo nelle pasticcerie, a mangiare la cioccolata, i biscotti, ne facevo delle scorpacciate, ci andavo di frequente, no, per fare delle commissioni, nello stesso tempo io vedevo e questa villa qui, anch’io da ragazzo ci giravo al largo perché avevo paura, anche era entrata un po’ nella nostra mentalità, no, e allora, Villa Triste sì, c’era a Broni sì. [unclear] La Todt l’ho detto, sordomuto quello là che l’hanno ucciso, Pippo.
FA: E a Broni e Stradella invece non bombardavano?
FN: No. Sì, poteva fare disastri Pippo, perché Pippo era anche lì. Però Broni, Stradella non è mai stata bombardata, che sappia io, no, no, no. Che poi Broni e Stradella erano diventate il centro vero e proprio degli sfollati milanesi eh, perché tutti i giorni c’era la Lombarda, c’erano queste corriere lombarde, tre, quattro, a volte sei, tutte in fila e si scaricavano tutte a Broni e a Stradella. Poi andavano su nelle colline ma tutto il giorno era una fiumana di persone, però il paese così, Broni e Stradella, le ferrovie, no, non è mai stata, anche l’industria che c’era, le robe via, la Gea, tutte quelle ditte lì grosse abbastanza ma non sono mai state bombardate quelle zone lì, che sappia io. Allora, fate domande e io vi rispondo.
FA: Va bene.
FN: [unclear]
FA: Vuole dirci qualcos’altro?
FN: No, [unclear] sono magari dopo quando siete andati via mi viene in mente delle altre. Tedeschi ubriachi, le fucilazioni, testimoni, sono cose vere queste eh, che ho raccontato, mica le invento eh. Società, avevo dimenticato società la Lombarda, la Lombarda la chiamavano, biblioteca, giovanotti, tedeschi ritirata, , amico maciullato, non mi ricordo più il nome, era un ragazzino, aveva la mia età, funerale, anche qua hanno mitragliato, la Todt, la Todt anche quella lì, faceva, che poi era il disastro quando c’era il Po in piena, con tutto l’argine bucato perché c’è stato una volta che poi il Po era arrivato fino a Campospinoso Albaredo, sì, me li ricordo un anno e appunto perché l’argine era bucato e l’acqua, era bucato da queste trincee che facevano, no, era bucato e fino a Campospinoso Albaredo una volta è arrivato il Po, anche lì c’era un bel, era un bel disastro eh, e allora e poi finita la guerra allora andavamo a prendere le lepri, correvamo dietro le lepri perché non c’era più il divieto di caccia perché in quel paese lì, Campospinoso Albaredo era il paese, era un padrone solo, gli Arnaboldi, e ho conosciuto Arnaboldi, proprio il figlio, la madre, la figlia, era un padrone solo, terreni e tutto.
CI: Era ricco.
FN: Eh?
CI: Era ricco.
FN: Era Arnaboldi. Adesso tant’è che c’è ancora, adesso c’è il ricovero intestato ad Arnaboldi poi quando poi è morto anche il figlio andava a cavallo non so è morto, allora il paese hann cominciato a venderlo, casa per casa, l’han venduto tutto però Arnaboldi era, conte Arnaboldi, capitava.
CI: Era una potenza.
FN: Era una potenza allora, quel paese era così e tutti, tutti, tutti lavoravano nella proprietà di questo conte. Quello di Campospinoso Albaredo che poi adesso si è allargato ma il paese era tutto su una striscia [unclear], tutti, tutti, tutti lavoravano per questo conte, la terra. E poi aveva ogni famiglia c’era la raccolta del baco da seta, ogni famiglia aveva la sua stanza del baco da seta e il conte Arnaboldi, il bozzolo così bisognava consegnarli tutti a questo conte, venivano pagato un tot ma non so era così, però era conte Arnaboldi quel paese lì, lo sapevi, lo sai adesso.
FA: Va bene. Allora la, la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
FN: No, io, non so, adesso, quello, io ho raccontato quello che mi è venuto in mente.
CI: Fuori programma.
FN: Fuori programma.
CI: Una cosa che ricordo bene di te quando eravamo là agli Artigianelli, tu sei arrivato che eri già, avevi già quattordici anni o che, io
FN: Eh sì, perché, sì, sì.
CI: Noi lì eravamo, beh
FN: Avevo finito
CI: Un collegio da preti, no, quindi c’era un certo comportamento e lui l’è rivà e l’ canteva, s’è scincà la pel del cul, Donna Vughere, Donna Vughere, s’è scincà la pel del cul, Donna Vughere fala giustà.
FN: Ero, no, io.
CI: [laughs] Te lo ricordi te?
FN: Sì. Eh, io ero ragazzino. Lo dico adesso.
CI: Era un po’ differente da tutti gli altri. Lui era venuto, gli altri sono venuti in un età un po’ meno, dopo la quinta elementare ma lui è arrivato già, sui quattordici anni, quindici, era, poi aveva subito una vita un po’ disastrosa via, cioè, era euforico, teneva allegro un po’ tutti eh, era un po’ un punto d’appoggi, da esterno diciamo, diceva delle cose che gli altri non si permettevano di dire ma lui.
FN: Ma no, è perché io, io ho avuto anche quella fortuna lì, nonostante tutto, io sono sempre stato un ragazzo buono, cioè bravo, buono ecco più che altro, mai cattivo.
CI: Sì, di animo buono.
FN: Ecco, animo buono. Però sono sempre stato uno, un tipo allegro e ne inventavo di tutti i colori. Per esempio io quando sono entrato negli Artigianelli, ero, sempre stato anche attivo, no, non so se c’entra con la guerra, però io.
CI: No, ma hai spento?
FN: E’ spento.
CI: Spento.
FN: Io però adesso tanto per andare dentro un po’ in tutto nel, quando sono venuto negli Artigianelli io sono sempre stato un tipo in movimento, non stavo fermo no e ho sempre organizzato tante cose, tant’è che poi è quello che ho raccontato adesso, devo avere anche delle fotografie lì. Tant’è che avevo preso anche una certa carica negli scout, no, hai presente che ci sei anche tu negli scout.
CI: Sì, sì negli scout eravamo.
FN: E nell’Azione Cattolica. E mi avevano messo anche, mi avevano dato degli incarichi di responsabilità. E allora nelle mie.
CI: Eri capogruppo te.
FN: Sì. E allora io organizzavo e avevo organizzato una gita in barca, che è quando è annegato [pauses] un ragazzo. Insomma, io ho, poi dopo sono andato, ho imparato, sono diventato insegnante, ho diretto un grande stabilimento ma organizzavo sempre le gite io, nelle scuole soprattutto.
CI: Aveva sempre la macchina fotografica a tracolla.
FN: Sì, io c’avevo sempre.
CI: Appassionato di macchine.
FN: Quello ormai è diventata vecchia, me la son messa qui quando.
FA: Quando è entrato nell’Azione Cattolica?
CI: No, beh, era una cosa particolare interna, ero, io ero l’unico che ero nelle, però per essere boy scout bisognava essere anche nell’azione cattolico. Io ero l’unico, ero un boy scout ma non ero iscritto all’azione cattolica.
FN: Sì, ma prima c’era l’Azione Cattolica dentro, l’Azione Cattolica era come c’era a Pavia, era un’associazione.
CI: Sì, era negli oratori no.
FN: Era un’associazione.
CI: E lì era radicata come internamente.
FN: Sì, come era negli oratori, insomma giovanotti così no, tant’è che quando siamo andati a Roma ho preso tante di quelle botte ma le ho date anche mi è, perché avevo in mano una statua di San Pietro, eh!
FA: Ma chi è che l’ha picchiata?
FN: I compagni, è per quello che poi non, i compagni mi sono sempre andati giù per traverso, no. Vabbè. Giravo per Pavia con un coltello perché c’erano i compagni, perché loro era il momento, vestiti da Boy Scout, sti uomini anche di una certa età che ti prendevano in giro, ma mica venivano vicino a me però. Gli altri scappavano ma vicino a me non ci venivano. A Roma tutti, se ti ricordi il nome perché, l’organizzazione , a Roma c’è stato, era l’organizzazione organizzato da Carlo Carretto, i baschi verdi.
CI: Carlo Carretto era il presidente dell’Azione Cattolica italiana.
FN: I baschi verdi, i giovanotti edell’Azione Cattolica li chiamavano i baschi verdi, a Roma tutti coi baschi verdi, no, che erano allora più di cinquecentomila. E noi andavamo a dormire con gli Artigianelli, col Vergari andavamo a dormire un po’ fuori Roma. C’era un capannone, c’erano delle suore lì e facendo la strada, vero, perché i compagni in quel, quando c’è stato l’incontro con il Papa, avevano paura di tutto questo baccano di questo giovanotti, allora avevano dato ordine di, tutti, di rifugiarsi loro nelle loro sedi. Senonché c’è stato un errore che quando è venuto, veniva oramai il discorso del Papa, tutti questi giovanotti se ne tornavano nei loro posti dove dovevano andare a dormire e nello stesso tempo i compagni avevano la libera uscita per uscire dalle loro sedi e ci sono stati gli scontri, ecco, e allora, il mio gruppo, vero, che poi posso farti i nomi, Barbierato, tutti quei, tu li conosci, li hai conosciuti no, eravamo tutti insieme e andavamo giù verso il [unclear] e nello stesso tempo veniva su un gruppo di uomini, maturi anche uomini maturi e lì c’è stato uno scontro, [unclear], cioè ma quelli là, noi l’avevamo presa così andavamo giù tranquilli, quelli là hanno cominciato a dare botte e tutti sti ragazzi, compagni, amici, scappare a destra e a sinistra, io sono rimasto da solo con quella statua lì, ho preso tanti di quei calci, ma ne ho dati via dove potevo e alcuni li ho feriti anche seriamente e nello stesso tempo, neanche a farlo apposta, è venuto fuori un temporale. Nello stesso tempo hanno fatto, facevano, si sono messi a fare i fuochi artificiali. Tra temporale, tuoni e fuochi artificiali è venuto fuori un bordello, hanno chiamato la croce verde, eh caro mio, non c’era mica tanto da scherzare eh, ecco. Comunque tutte le gite che io ho fatto, ho sempre avuto dei morti.
FA: E chi c’era come Papa?
FN: Pio XII.
CI: Pio XII.
FN: Era Pio, sì, Pio XII.
CI: Pio XII. Papa Pacelli.
FN: Papa Pacelli deve essere.
FA: E che anno? Più o meno?
FN: ’48, o no? ’48.
CI: ’60?
FN: No, che ’60. ’48.
CI: ’48.
FA: Va bene.
FN: No, no, no.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Franco Nocchieri
Description
An account of the resource
Franco Nocchieri recalls his early years as an orphan in several different towns in the Province of Pavia. He describes the bombing of the Voghera railway station, which started while he was heading to school. He goes on to explain how he and his schoolmates used to cheer during air-raids, as they were free to skip school and play. He recounts his experience as live-in delivery boy at his stepfather’s tavern at Albaredo Arnaboldi, a vantage point from which he witnessed the daily attempts to destroy the Ponte della Becca, a bridge across the Po river. Franco describes his memories of ‘Pippo’, which he tried to watch every night, and mentions it dropping explosive devices disguised as fountain pens and toys. He describes the difficult coexistence between the local population and Axis troops, stressing the brutality of fascist militiamen. He also describes the fearsome reputation of a prison in the nearby town of Broni, known as ‘Villa Triste’, where many people disappeared. He remarks on his fearless attitude, except while listening to Radio Londra, which was a criminal offence at the time. Franco comments on the food shortages of the time and describes how the poor resorted to eating cats, which were considered to be a substitute for rabbit. He also recounts several wartime events, including: a narrow escape from the Ponte della Becca bombing; widespread fear inspired by so-called ‘Mongols’ (which were part of a German foreign division); a public execution; a friend killed by a bomb believed to have been dropped by ‘Pippo’; the strafing of a funeral procession, and the sight of Felice Fiorentini, a war criminal dubbed 'The Beast', being paraded in and around the province in a cage after the end of the war. He also mentions various stories from his time as a member of the Azione Cattolica Italiana, a Roman Catholic lay association.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Broni
Italy--Voghera
Italy--Pavia
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2017-02-02
Format
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01:05:47 audio recording
Language
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ita
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ANocchieriF170202
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/113/1172/PMuratoriG160314.1.JPG
d025a0e5e087dd2fd35d9177353e109f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/113/1172/AMuratoriLG161125.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Muratori, Gino
Gino Muratori
G Muratori
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Gino Muratori who recollects his wartime experiences in Rimini.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-14
Identifier
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Muratori, G
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Daniele Celli: Oggi 14 marzo 2016, parliamo con Muratori Gino, classe 1929. Prima domanda che ti faccio.
Gino Muratori: Nato a Bellariva.
DC: Nato a Bellariva. Prima domanda che ti faccio è questa. Com’era composto il tuo nucleo famigliare quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento di Rimini. Quanti eravate in casa?
GM: Noi in casa eravamo mia nonna, mio nonno.
DC: Nonna materna?
GM: Materna.
DC: Materna.
GM: Nonna.
DC: E si chiama, te lo ricordi il nome, cognome e la classe, se ti viene in mente?
GM: Ostia, mio nonno dunque, è morto nel ’51 a 94 anni.
DC: E aveva 94 anni. Lui si chiamava?
GM: [clears throat] Gaspare.
DC: E di cognome?
GM: Angelini.
DC: Angelini.
GM: Angelini.
DC: Eh, sposato, eh, la sua moglie?
GM: La nonna si chiamava della Rosa che era parente qui dei della Rosa di Bellaviva.
DC: Di Bellaviva.
GM: E si chiamava Angela.
DC: E lei più o meno a che ora [unclear]?
GM: Dunque lei è morta a San Marino nel ’44.
DC: Ah lei è morta per il passaggio del fronte, tua nonna?
GM: Sì, è morta per il passaggio del fronte però di malattia perché lei.
DC: Tifo?
GM: No, lei, è venuto che, lei non ha voluto venir via da Rimini perché mia nonna, il primo bombardamento che ci han fatto, che han fatto a Rimini è morta una figlia sotto i bombardamenti.
DC: Ostia!
GM: Capito, una [clears throat] una figlia e una nipotina, hai capito.
DC: Lei stava di già ancora a San Martino quando c’è stato la guerra?
GM: No, no, no, mia nonna stava qui.
DC: Ah giusto, era nel nucleo con te.
GM: Erano già venuti giù loro da San Martino.
DC: Erano già venuti giù.
GM: Mia nonna dopo è stata tanti anni qui a Bellariva. Mia nonna aveva sette figlie, sette figlie femmine. Una stava a Riccione, una a Viserba e una
DC: No, quello, io voglio sapere quello del tuo nucleo famigliare.
GM: Il mio nucleo, c’era mio babbo che è stato anche in Germania, lui.
DC: Classe, il tuo babbo? Nome e classe.
GM: Mio babbo era del ’93.
DC: Del ’93.
GM: ’93.
DC: E si chiamava il tuo babbo?
GM: Ubaldo.
DC: Ubaldo. Sposato con?
GM: Con mia mamma Eucillia.
DC: Di soprannome, di cognome?
GM: Di cognome Angelini.
DC: Ah, Angelini, giusto. Angelini.
GM: Era una Angelini lei.
DC: E i figli? C’eri te e quanti?
GM: Io, Franco e Luciano.
DC: Franco di che classe era?
GM: Franco è del ’40, ’41 credo.
DC: E Luciano?
GM: Luciano è del ’26. E’ il più grande Luciano.
DC: Luciano è il più grande di tutti.
GM: E’ il più grande di tutti.
DC: Dimmi esattamente dove abitavate.
GM: Noi abitavamo in Via Pesaro
DC: Quindi?
GM: Numero 1, dove c’è la piscina dell’Oceanic.
DC: Sì.
GM: Lì c’era la casa dove eravamo noi.
DC: Via Pesaro 1. E quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento dicevi che la tua nonna
GM: Quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento mia nonna abitava Bellariva e io ero per un pelo che ci sono scappato, ero andato a rinnovare l’abbonamento, che io avevo un, lavoravo allora a Rimini facevo il meccanico dentista, no?
DC: Ostia!
GM: Pensa te [unclear]
DC: Con chi? Ti ricordi?
GM: Ah, con.
DC: Il dottor?
GM: Con Lazzarotto.
DC: Lazzarotto. E dove aveva il suo ambulatorio?
GM: Aveva l’ambulatorio giù per il corso. Avevo poi Marcello Drudi, lo conosci Marcello Drudi?
DC: Marcello...
GM: Drudi.
DC: Che fa il dentista
GM: Faceva il meccanico dentista.
DC: Sì.
GM: Dopo lui è andato a lavorare con il fratello del Lazzarotto che ha imparato il mestiere lì. E me son de fè fabbri da questo.
DC: [laughs] Le vabbe’ se continui ti lì
GM: [unclear]
DC: Oddio però anche un fabbro insomma.
GM: Sì. Dopo.
DC: Se entrava nel giro buono [unclear] stava bene. Era tutto un altro lavoro.
GM: E’ stato [unclear] Io dopo ho lavorato tanti anni da Fochi però dopo avevo tentato la scalata ma.
DC: [laughs]
GM: L’era sempre che la zente non aveva mai il soldo, paghè, l’era un casen te capì?
DC: Te mi, M’hai detto prima che durante il primo bombardamento, tua nonna ha perso due familiari?
GM: No, mia nonna sì, ha perso una figlia che era sposata, che aveva un albergo in via Cormons.
DC: Come si chiamava tua zia?
GM: [clears throat] Mia zia si chiamava Aldina.
DC: Angelini Aldina.
GM: Aldina.
DC: Angelini Aldina.
GM: E la bambina si chiamava Anna. Siccome aveva sposato lei un Corbelli, sposata con un Corbelli.
DC: Quanti anni poteva avere quella bambina?
GM: Avrà avuto, [unclear] Dio Bono!
DC: Più o meno.
GM: Avrà avuto cinque anni. Avrà avuto cinque anni.
DC: Quindi loro abitavano in Via Cormons.
GM: Loro avevano la pensione Primavera in Via Cormons. Che è andata giù in pieno con una bomba, hai capito? Erano
DC: Primo bombardamento su quella zona.
GM: Perché lì è stato un trucco. Diciamo che han dato l’allarme e io con l’allarme ero proprio vicino alla Villa Rosa.
DC: Proprio sul, la via del filobus.
GM: La via del filobus.
DC: All’angolo quasi con Piazzale Kennedy.
GM: Dove è venuto giù il ponte dell’Ausa che han colpito. [clears throat] Io ero andato a rinnovare l’abbonamento perché era il giorno dei santi in [unclear]
DC: Il primo Novembre.
GM: La vedi qua che vedo oggi [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Quando ho rinnovato sto abbonamento e difatti vado là, era chiuso. Allora il filobus non c’era, mi sono incamminato a piedi e lì nel Viale Montegazza c’era una mia cugina che abitava e c’era suo figlio che era un ragazzino più piccolo di me che è andato, era lì vicino il Bar Ceschi, che adesso è i Duchi, peta che è il ristorente Chi Burdlaz.
DC: Sì.
GM: E’ lì che c’è. Lì tiravano, lui aveva una fionda che tirava i [unclear]
DC: [laughs]
GM:E allora abbiamo chiacchierato un po’ così e poi io mi sono incamminato e ho detto: ‘Andrei per trovare mia zia’, hai capito,
DC: Sono qui vicino.
GM: In Via Cormons, no, e appunto là c’è l’allarme adesso quando c’è il cessato allarme appena e difatti c’era un bus fermo vicino la Villa Rosa. Da il cessato allarme e m’incammino per il bus, il bus parte e arrivo a Bellariva.
DC: Fai in tempo di arrivare a Bellariva.
GM: Faccio in tempo a Bellariva che han dato, c’era l’allarme ancora e difatti.
DC: E quindi ha suonato due volte la mattina.
GM: Due volte. Han dato il cessato allarme e nel tragitto da Villa Rosa a Bellariva
DC: Altro allarme
GM: C’è stato un cessato allarme però il, quello che guidava con la sciampugnetta, hai capito,
DC: Certo.
GM: l’altro dritto, e io son venuto a casa. Quando son venuto a Bellariva avevano già sganciato le bombe lì a [unclear]
DC: Lì il rumore del bombardamento non l’hai avvertito.
GM: Io non l’ho sentito, s’è sentito, quando sono sceso si è visto solo sto fumo nero che veniva
DC: Dalla città. Dalla zona marina centro.
GM: Dalla zona marina centro. Ho detto, puttana madonna, l’è bumbardè, ah, ie bumbardè, bumbardè, [unclear] dicevano, no. E così è stato, allora.
DC: Sei tornato a vedere dopo lì?
GM: No, no, no, e dopo è tornato il mio babbo, è tornato a vedere, perché mia nonna fa: ‘Ma Dio bono, [unclear] bombardè la dàs marina centro’.
DC: Andè veder che bordello.
GM: E difatti la pensione è andata giù completo, lei con l’allarme era già, è uscita e poi è [unclear], ha fatto in tempo ad entrare in casa.
DC: Tracchete.
GM: Andè zò da cegerme adoss.
DC: E’ morta altra gente lì? E la pensione, c’era della gente dentro o erano tutti [unclear]?
GM: No, nella pensione c’era, è rimasta sotto solo lei e gli altri figli si sono salvati che c’era, è rimasta una scalinata in quella pensione che andava nella sala e c’erano come dei gradini, si vede che era di cemento e c’era come un tunnel, come un sottoscala.
DC: Si sono infilati lì sotto?
GM: E s’infila lì sotto
DC: [swears]
GM: Tre delle figlie e lì [unclear] hai capito e quello è stato un disastro perché hanno fatto nel primo acchito lì, hanno preso proprio la scia della Villa Rosa che hanno buttato giù il Ponte dell’Ausa e poi hanno colpito lì nella Via Fiume, nella Via Trieste.
DC: Sono arrivati fino laggiù al gasometro.
GM: Sì, il gasometro.
DC: Anzi, con le bombe Via Gambalunga.
GM: Sì, l’hanno compito il gasometro in pieno [unclear], quella volta, sì.
DC: Ho parlato con una signora che stava di casa vicino al gasometro. Ha detto: ‘Noi eravamo andati alla messa dai Paolotti in città. Mentre torniamo’, dice, ‘siamo arrivati davanti al duomo, suona l’allarme, siamo corsi nel palazzo [unclear] che c’era un rifugio antiaereo’.
GM: Sì.
DC: E si sono messi lì sotto. Dice: ‘Abbiamo sentito le vibrazioni del bombardamento’, perchè loro lì erano vicini. Ha detto: ‘Il mio babbo a me e a mio nonno ci ha lasciati da un collega di lavoro’, che era in ferrovia lui.
GM: Sì, sì.
DC: E lui è andato a vedere giù. Dice: ‘Io da quel giorno lì non sono più tornata a casa. Siamo andati da un’altra parte’.
GM: Ah sì sì.
DC: ‘Mia mamma era rimasta a casa a prepararci da mangiare, è rimasta sotto le macerie.’
GM: E dopo il secondo bombardamento.
DC: Il 26 di novembre.
GM: Di novembre, allora poi è successo che, c’era la miseria qui no, allora si cercava di prendere qualche soldo. Da Milano, quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento là nel [unclear].
DC: Sono venuti un sacco di sfollati.
GM: Sono venuti un sacco di sfollati a Rimini. E allora...
DC: C’era gente anche qui a Bellariva che era venuta sfollata o erano in città, a Marina centro?
GM: Marina centro fino lì Via Pascoli c’erano tutti
DC: Erano tutti concentrati là.
GM: C’erano tutti quegli alberghi, quei due, perchè si contavano con le dita gli alberghi
DC: Sì non
GM: C’era l’Internazionale che era lì vicino, prima di Piazza Tripoli, era prima di Piazza Tripoli che avevano messo su lì una grande, dei grandi uffici di Milano e allora c’erano molti impiegati che lavoravano là. Avevano preso tutto loro l’albergo.
DC: Si era trasferita la ditta praticamente.
GM: Sì. Allora noi cosa abbiamo fatto? Io, Feruzzi e Zamagni andavamo alla fermata del filobus di Marina centro che scendeva la gente perché sull’Ausa non poteva passare la linea. Era interrotta.
DC: Era interrotta, perché c’era il ponte rotto.
GM: E noi con un velocino, andavamo a prendere le valigie.
DC: Facevate il trasbordo.
GM: Facevamo il trasbordo fino a Piazza Tripoli.
DC: E lì facevate [unclear]
GM: E da lì partiva l’altro bus che andava fino a Riccione e allora prendevamo
DC: [unclear]
GM: Dieci centesimi, venti centesimi, capito? [laughs] Un pomeriggio andavamo giù perché uno [unclear] era un [unclear] con delle ruote alte lì. Facevamo da cavallo e due salivano, hai capito? Un po’ per uno. Quando siamo a Piazza Tripoli vediamo le strisce in alto. Dio bono, gli apparecchi! Prendi ‘sta via.
DC: Non aveva suonato l’allarme quella volta?
GM: Non l’abbiamo sentito noi quel giorno lì, non l’abbiam sentito, abbiamo visto sti apparecchi, facevano tutto quel fumo dietro. ‘Gli apparecchi, dio bono, via, via, via!’ Giù in marina.
DC: Venivano dal mare? Te lo ricordi?
GM: No, venivano da monte.
DC: Da monte.
GM: Da monte.
DC: Quindi il secondo eh?
GM: Quel giorno lì, Il secondo bombardamento che noi andavamo verso
DC: Verso Riccione in quel momento
GM: Verso marina centro.
DC: Verso marina centro.
GM: Gli apparecchi, [unclear] zù in marene, la stanga pron e via, lascia [unclear] giù sotto la mura del lungomare.
DC: Del lungomare.
GM: Difatti, dio bono, venivan zù lì, [makes a booming noise] e cadono un sacco di bombe in acqua anche, no?
DC: Addirittura sono arrivati in mare quel giorno?
GM: Le bombe sono cadute anche in mare, allora noi tagliamo sulla spiaggia [unclear] andon zò verso Bellariva per mareina, però lì al direzione dei Angeli Frua, [unclear] l’Hotel Belvedere che è vecchio che è rimasto lì.
[dog barking]
DC: Tutto decrepito, quello che è ancora tutto messo male?
GM: Adesso come una volta.
DC: Sì.
GM: Però funziona ancora, funzionante, hai capito?
[Dog barking. Female voice: sta zitta.]
GM: Lì c’erano, sulla spiaggia c’erano i tedeschi con la contraerea, hai capito?
DC: Contraerea secondo te erano quelli...
GM: Che sparavano agli aerei.
DC: Ma canna o singola o quelle mitragliatrici...
GM: No c’erano le mitragliatrici a quattro canne, quattro canne.
Ui: Quelle da quattro canne, ho capito.
GM: E c’erano i reticolati fino ad un certo punto prima di arrivare nel mare, no, prima di arrivare sulla spiaggia. E allora c’erano i tedeschi [mimics angry screaming] te capì?
DC: Vi facevano andare via?
GM: Ci facevano segno, no? E noi quando hanno fatto segno ha detto: ‘Ma dai, tagliamo verso la ferrovia, andiamo giù per la ferrovia’.
DC: Guai.
GM: Guai.
DC: La ferrovia era
GM: Siamo andati giù in direzione [dog barking] della pensione, aspetta, lì c’è l’Audi, sai dov’è l’Hotel Audi. Vicino
DC: No adesso comunque, comunque dopo si ripiglia.
GM: L’Hotel Plata hai capito che adesso l’hanno chiuso perché era tutto scasinato lì.
DC: Quindi voi da lì avete preso...
GM: Abbiamo preso verso la ferrovia e la direzione, poco in là ci sono le officine.
[dog barking]
DC: Porca miseria, [laughs]
GM: E’ apparsa una formazione [speaks dialect], erano anche bassi, no, lì, bombardamenti [unclear] hanno fatto. Si me e Giorgio e [unclear]
DC: Giorgio chi, quello del distributore?
GM: Giorgio, no, era Giorgio Feruzzi, che adesso è morto lui.
Ui: Non ce l’ho presente.
GM: Quattro, cinque anni fa, dieci anni fa.
DC: Quindi siete andati in
GM: Era un mio collega, era un mio amico
DC: Coetaneo.
GM: Coetaneo, di, della stessa classe eravamo.
DC: Siete andati vicinissimi al ponte.
GM: Siamo andati lì, proprio lì [speaks dialect] finì, Dio bono. Allora dopo è passato sto bombardamento e siamo andati giù direttamente giù per la ferrovia e siamo arrivati a Bellariva, hai capito.
DC: L’antiaerea gli ha sparato a quegli aereoplani, secondo te ?
GM: Sì sì sparavano.
DC: Sparavano.
GM: Sì, sparavano, sì sì. E allora
DC: Erano aerei con quattro motori che c’avete guardato o no, erano alti?
GM: Non erano tanto, si vedevano, non erano quattro motori.
DC: Perché la prima volta mi hai detto che facevano le strisce.
GM: Sì, facevano le strisce.
DC: Perché dopo poi c’è stato un bombardamento anche il giorno dopo, il giorno successivo, grosso anche quello.
GM: Sì.
DC: In Novembre ce ne sono stati tre.
GM: Tre. C’è quell ch’è ste gross.
DC: Il terzo è stato grosso grosso.
GM: Ecco dopo lì, da quel bombardamento lì, sono andato a lavorare alla Todt, alla famosa Todt.
DC: Dov’era la sede della, dov’è che ti sei iscritto?
GM: La sede della Todt, niente come quando, di toi uperaio la Todt allora.
DC: Sì, ma dove sei andato te materialmente a[unclear]?
GM: Alla Maddalena, allora c’era la colonia Maddalena.
Ui: Colonia Maddalena, ah, a Marebello.
GM: Marebello, lì dalle colonie.
DC: Lì era la sede della Todt.
GM: Lì c’era, lì c’era, erano tutti i campi da grano quelli, no. C’era la colonia poi erano tutti i campi da grano, una casina in fondo. Si contavano con le dita le case lì. E c’erano tutti i camion [unclear] perché Maddalena era il centro dove facevano i cassettoni per le, per armare, il cemento armato, hai capito.
DC: I getti di calcestruzzo.
GM: Lì c’erano tutti i falegnami e la manodopera come noi, la mattina ci prendevano, prendevano
DC: Quindi quello era il punto di ritrovo e da lì vi portavano dove.
GM: Quello il punto di ritrovo. Tutte le mattine noi andavamo giù, lì facevano l’appello, hai capito, ti chiamavano, e poi salivi, si saliva sui camion che c’erano tutti autisti della
DC: Camion tedeschi o?
GM: Camion tedeschi.
DC: Tedeschi.
GM: Erano camion tedeschi che erano, gli autisti erano prigionieri
DC: Ucraini.
GM: Ucraini, erano tutti ucraini.
Ui: Polacchi, robe così.
GM: [unclear] Non erano armati nè niente. Avevano una divisa nera così e facevano, e ci portavano là.
DC: Eravate in molti a lavorare lì alla Maddalena?
GM: Eravamo in parecchi. La mattina andavamo giù perché dopo da là c’erano tre, quattro fortini che erano tirati giù dopo la guerra.
DC: Dove?
GM: Per togliere il ferro.
Ui: Dove ’là’?
Gm: Dopo il ponte, sai dov’è il Carlini che fann le barche?
Ui: Sì.
GM: Ecco, là.
DC: Là c’erano quei quattro fortini con i cannoni dentro?
GM: Eh, quelli lì.
DC: Quelli che guardavano il mare?
GM: Noi facevamo quelli.
DC: Quelli, lavoravi in quelli? Ma lo sai che c’ha lavorato anche il mio suocero?
GM: Ah sì?
DC: Lui era di Viserba Monte.
GM: [unclear] lì lavoravano parecchi.
DC: Senti cosa mi ha raccontato lui, non so se questo lo puoi, c’era gente che lavorava che veniva anche da fuori. Lui m’ha detto:’Io lavoravo con uno di Bergamo, che aveva un bambino con lui’. Il figlio, perché si vede che non sapeva dove lasciarlo.
GM: Però dopo, la sede, si vede che c’erano dopo altri punti di riferimento per questa organizzazione.
DC: D’incontro. Lui mi sa che faceva dalla corderia.
GM: Ah dalla corderia, ho capito.
DC: Che era un altro coso grosso che usavano i tedeschi.
GM: Noi partivamo da là, dalla Maddalena e quando c’era l’allarme ci portavano a Viserba Monte. Ci caricavano, davano l’allarme, si andava in campagna perché non potevano.
DC: Quanti mesi hai lavorato con loro secondo te?
GM: Due mesi.
DC: Quindi sei arrivato?
Gm: Sì, a Dicembre, così mi sembra.
DC: Perché se hai detto dopo il bombardamento di fine novembre.
GM: Dicembre, gennaio.
DC: C’hai lavorato dicembre e gennaio probabilmente.
GM: Due mesi ho lavorato.
DC: Se, te hai lavorato sempre a quei fortini là a Rivabella.
GM: Sì, noi facevamo la calce praticamente ecco perché dopo tutto il legno venivano giù coi camion tutte ste cose già pronte, queste.
DC: Perché quelli erano grossi, quei fortini lì a Rivabella.
GM: [unclear] Erano grossi, sì, sì, erano grossi.
DC: Ho visto delle fotografie.
GM: Ce n’era uno anche qui.
DC: Hanno messo prima i cannoni dentro e poi gli hanno fatto il calcestruzzo, te ti ricordi?
GM: Quando hanno messo i cannoni io non.
DC: Te non c’eri.
GM: Io non c’ero più.
DC: Quindi prima [unclear]. Li hanno messi dentro dopo.
GM: Sì, dopo, dopo, li hanno messi dentro.
DC: Qui vicino
GM: Qui ce n’era uno più grosso, eh.
DC: Dove? Spiegami un po’, che mi interessa molto.
GM: Qui.
DC: Toh.
GM: Era ne, qui, sai dov’è il gas?
Ui: Sì.
Gm: Qui, c’è quella stradina che viene che c’è il divieto, lì, la prima strada.
Ui: Guarda, così guarda. Questa, allora questa è la ferrovia. Via Chiabrera.
GM: Chiabrera.
DC: Qui ci sono gli uffici del gas.
Gm: Del gas. Qui c’è
DC: E qui adesso c’è la rotonda.
GM: Sì.
DC: Dimmi un po’ dov’era?
GM: Qui c’ è la prima, la prima strada.
Ui: Sì.
Gm: Qui. Poi dopo, c’è la prima col semaforo, la seconda col semaforo.
DC: Sì.
Gm: La prima strada qui e il bunker era qui.
Ui: Ed era grosso quanto, secondo te?
Gm: Ah, era grosso.
DC: Una stazza così?
GM: Eh, anche più grande.
DC: Quindi questo era un bunker.
GM: L’hann buttato giù lì proprio quando sono venuto giù io.
DC: Questo è il gas.
GM: Qui
DC: Bunker.
GM: Quando sono venuto giù io dalla parte verso Riccione, l’hanno forato con due cannonate. C’erano proprio i
DC: I buchi.
GM: I buchi delle cannonate.
DC: Ma questo qui secondo te, doveva tenere un cannone o era più?
GM: Ma quello lì penso io che tenessero mitraglitrici credo.
Ui: Qui lungo la ferrovia, allora, [unclear] quello della frutta cinquanta metri più in qua attaccata alla ferrovia, un metro
GM: [unclear]
DC: Sì, c’è un fortino piccolo.
GM: Eh.
DC: Sono andato a fargli la fotografia.
GM: Sottoterra vai anche lì eh.
DC: Questo qui.
GM: Quello è profondo.
DC: Ha, il, la botola sopra.
GM: Sì, la botola sopra che c’era una mitraglia penso io.
DC: Secondo, o era una riservetta, dico, sì, secondo me lì sopra ci doveva stare la mitraglia.
GM: Lì c’era questa piatta, questa cosa tonda che si vede che c’era una mitragliera
DC: Da fronteggiare.
GM: A quarantacinque gradi, vai a capire, a novanta gradi, e in più c’era una casamatta dentro. Casematte erano tutte quelle tonde di ferro che erano
DC: A cupoletta così.
GM: Erano tonde, tonde, proprio tonde. E avevano una porta di otto, nove centimetri. Che noi, quando io lavoravo da [unclear] dopo la guerra.
DC: Andavate a recuperare la roba.
GM: Abbiamo tagliato ste porte per fare il tasso per raddrizzare il ferro, per battere il ferro
DC: Per lavorare
GM: Hai capito?
DC: [laughs] Quella era roba bona.
GM: Ce n’era una anche vicino il [unclear] dove c’era, dove finiva la mura del De Orchi.
DC: C’era un fortino lato mare?
GM: C’era una casamatta di ferro così.
DC: Allora questa è la De Orchi.
GM: Eh. Di dietro.
DC: De Orchi. Questo qui è il mare.
GM: Sì.
DC: Dov’è che era sto fortino?
GM: Questo è il mare, il fortino è, dunque questo è la De Orchi, qui, qui. Era qui.
DC: Questa era uno di quelli piccolini, cupoletta.
GM: Tutto ferro, tutto ferro.
DC: Ah, solo ferro.
GM: Solo ferro.
DC: Ah , ostia!, interessante. C’è una fotografia nei libri della guerra lì dei [unclear]? Bunker.
GM: Quello è tutto ferro, tondo. C’era
DC: Tutto ferro.
GM: Con porta di spessore da dieci centimetri.
Ui: E qui intorno ce ne erano degli altri che ti ricordi te?
GM: No, qui, qui, qui, e qui [unclear], no.
DC: Sai dove ce n’è uno ancora esistente?
Gm: Eh.
DC: In Via Zavagli. Te sei a monte e vai verso il mare.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Come passi il primo ponte della ferrovia, guardi sulla spallata così della ferrovia, c’è il fortino. A trenta metri dalla Via Zavagli. Ci sono andato dentro, ho preso le misure.
Gm: [unclear] perché io ho visto un altro coso come quello della [unclear]
DC: E’ fatto così a due livelli.
GM: Ho capito.
DC: Sopra il tetto ha, stranamente ha la porta verso il mare, che non è, sembra illogico. E’ così guarda. C’ha la porta qui così,
GM: [unclear] verso il mare.
DC: si alza un po’ e qui c’è la feritoia. E’ fatto così, tutto in calcestruzzo. E qui la porta e la feritoia guardano tutti due
Gm: E’ quello che te sei andato qui perché invece
DC: Invece quello è così, è un rettangolo praticamente smussato un po’ indietro così
GM: Sotto si va, si va giù coi gradini sotto da dentro nel recinto dalla casa.
DC: Ah, anche quello c’ha la porta qui.
GM: Quello c’ha la porta.
DC: E il buco qua sopra.
GM: C’ha la porta verso il mare.
DC: Verso il mare.
GM: Sì. Infatti
DC: Guarda, è a un metro dalla linea ferroviaria, dalla rotaia.
Gm: Quella casa lì l’ha presa uno, ma sotto c’ha fatto la cantina.
DC: Sì c’ha fatto la cantina, ma non è tanto grande questo eh.
GM: No.
DC: Questo sarà largo così, è più lungo, è un rettangolo ma non è molto largo. Non so se lo usavano come riserva per le munizioni.
GM: Può darsi, senz’altro. Senz’altro.
DC: Tuo babbo che lavoro faceva in quel periodo?
GM: Mio babbo lavorava all’aeroporto allora al tempo di guerra.
DC: Cosa faceva?
GM: Dava benzina agli aerei così, hai capito?
DC: Ostia! Ma va!
GM: Eh sì, perché, dopo lui è stato in Germania.
DC: Coso qui, Antimi
Gm: Antimi, il falegname?
Ui: No, Antimi, adess l’è mort pure et ma lui durante la guerra era sotto naja, era in marina. Antimi, aspetta eh, sta, stava di casa, hai presente la rotonda qui dell’ospedale?
GM: Eh.
DC: Vai verso Riccione. Una, prima di arrivare in Via Rimembranza, lui sta in una di quelle casette lì. In Via Fasola.
GM: Fasola?
DC: Sta, lui di casa durante la guerra.
GM: Ah, ho capito.
Ui: Era di quella famiglia che stavano lì di fronte alla Coca-Cola. Un pochettino più verso Rimini.
GM: Sì [unclear]
DC: E lui lavorava dentro l’aeroporto e, se ricordo bene m’aveva detto, che era assieme, cosa che c’era, c’è un meridionale qui a Bellariva che anche lui era, lavorava dentro l’aeroporto.
GM: In tempo di guerra?
Ui: Sì, non so se faceva il calzolaio.
GM: Ah, può darsi.
DC: Come cus ciema, è famoso qui a Bellariva, sicuramente te lo conosci ma adesso mi sfugge il nome, e lo stesso. E lui quindi metteva benzina negli aeroplani, faceva questi servizi così. Porcaccia loca!
GM: [unclear] dopo, sì, mio babbo nel prima ha lavorato anche con il comune di Rimini, però lavorava d’estate, sai il lavoro era quello lì in tempo prima della, in tempo di guerra o prima della guerra, [unclear] ogni tent, si muradure.
DC: Dove capitava.
Gm: Dop l’è andè in Germania, è stato due tre anni là.
DC: Faceva le stagioni o stava fisso?
GM: No, no, lui, lui lavorava in una fabbrica di, dove facevano i sommergibili.
DC: Ostrica! Ti ricordi in che città era?
GM: Era witt, eh Wittenberg.
DC: Tre anni filati è stato là?
GM: No, veniva a casa in licenza.
DC: Faceva le licenze. Porco boia!
GM: Lui e mio zio, tutti e due.
DC: Perché qua mancava il lavoro.
GM: Eh, qua mancava il lavoro, dopo ha fatto sta cosa. Il primo anno l’ha fatto a Villach, in Austria.
DC: E li che cosa, fabbrica di che cosa?
GM: Lì campagna.
DC: E mio suocero l’è andè in Polonia a piantar patè di un anno.
GM: Anche lì fè in campagne dopo l’è [speaks dialect] il secondo turno l’ha fatto là in Germania.
DC: Perché pagavano più di qui.
GM: Ostia, pagavano [unclear] poi.
DC: Però mi ha detto mio suocero l’era un freddo
GM:Ah, l’era dura no però
DC: E’ arrivato là in maggio c’era ancora la neve dov’era lui.
GM: [unclear] Noi, io avevo tre fratelli, erano tutti e tre in Germania erano. Uno è rimasto anche fino la, il passaggio dei russi diciamo. [speaks dialect]
DC: [laughs] Dio poi!
GM: Hai capito? E invece gli altri due e mio babbo e mio zio, ce l’hann fatta a venire a casa [unclear]
DC: Dio poi! [laughs]
GM: Con una licenza e poi nel [speaks dialect]
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: Sta bombardè forti là.
DC: Porcamiseria. La Germania dove c’erano le fabbriche l’hann rasa praticamente al suolo.
GM: L’hann raso al suolo.
DC: Il terzo bombardamento di Rimini, anzi forse è stato il secondo. Dei caccia di scorta hanno sganciato i [unclear] nella zona del Ghetto Turco.
GM: Sì, i serbatoi.
DC: I serbatoi.
GM: I serbatoi, sì sì.
DC: Ti ricordi di averlo visto te sta cosa?
GM: Sì sì. Che venivano giù sta cosa, puttana [unclear].
DC: Una signora. La Gattei [?], [unclear] la mamma di Gattei [?]
GM: Sì.
DC: [unclear], La mamma di Gattei [?]
GM: Sì.
Ui: Il coso, il vecchio bagnino di Bellariva.
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Lei mi ha detto: ‘io stavo là vicino al Ghetto Turco [unclear] abbiamo visto venire giù sti robi strani [unclear] ah, Dio poi! Ma venivano giù piano, che di solito le bombe, quando prendevano velocità, non le vedevi più no. E questa si continuava a vedere [unclear] sai che sarà, corri di qua, corri d’là, arrivano per terra, non succede niente. Allora tutti avevano paura, disi, scoppierà per terr. Allora dice che c’era un carabiniere là c’la dett: ‘[speaks in dialect] che vado a veder io. Tanto ormai sono vecchio, anche se muoio io’. Quand’è arrivato là ha capito che erano serbatoi di benzina. Dopo [unclear] che qualcosa hanno rimediato ma c’era rimasto poca roba.
DC: Quindi anche te li hai visti scendere?
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Si capivano che erano caccia su in alto?
GM: [unclear] quando c’era la, la formazione degli aerei, quella era per il terzo bombardamento adesso [unclear] perché [unclear].
DC: Cert. [laughs]
GM: Mi ricordo che ero, ero lì dove c’è il semaforo adesso, no, la Via Rimembranza era tutta campagna. [speaks dialect] mi fa:’dio bono’, difatti venivano da Riccione e andavano verso Rimini. C’era la caserma Giulio Cesare, che c’erano ancora i soldati lì. H a dit, Puttana madonna guarda quanti aerei. E difatti si è visto proprio, io mi sono messo nel fosso, sembrava che queste bombe cadessero proprio sopra di noi.
DC: Dio poi!
GM: Puttana Madonna! [speaks dialect] Invece, hai capito, [unclear] vicino la mura della caserma, hai capito. Ah la Madonna! Era un bel disastro.
DC: Robe che non si dimenticano eh.
GM: Eh, non si dimenticano.
DC: [unclear]
GM: Ti faccio vedere un libro che ha scritto mio, un figlio di una mia cugina.
DC: Su questo argomento qui?
GM: Che racconta anche lui [unclear]
DC: Va la!
GM: Di questa. Tutti, ci sono tutti racconti, non so se tu l’hai visto quel libro lì.
DC: Come s’intitola?
GM: A m’arcord.
DC: Prova a far vedere, che mi interessa moltissimo. Che ci sia anche in biblioteca, l’avrà depositato.
GM: Non credo.
DC: Signora, voi di solito a che ora cenate, che non vorrei.
FS: Ma no no no, tardi.
DC: Tardi.
FS: Tardi, eh.
DC: [laughs]
FS: No no, non si preoccupi.
GM: Aspetta, ‘la città invisibile’.
DC: Ce l’ho.
GM: Ce l’hai?
DC: Ce l’ho. La scritto chi, tuo cugino? Tuo parente?
GM: No, c’è un racconto che è di un mio parente.
DC: Coso?
GM: Rodolfo si chiama.
DC: Francesconi?
GM: Francesconi.
DC: Te sei parente con Francesconi?
GM: Francesconi è il figlio di una mia cugina buona.
DC: Lo sai che io da un racconto [unclear] qui?
GM: [speaks dialect] Sarà zinquanta, sessanta anni.
Ui: Fa vedere la fotografia di Francesconi che di faccia non me lo ricordo.
GM: [unclear] vieni a pagina qua.
DC: Questo è bellissimo, sto libro qui. Il racconto di Rodolfo. Fa veder. Perché qui c’è un racconto anche di un altro di Bellariva.
GM: Germano Melucci.
DC: [unclear] sull’elenco non c’è.
GM: Stai qui, stai qui.
DC: Non l’ho trovato sul elenco telefonico.
GM: Te dè me il numero.
DC: Dio bonamma! Rodolfo, fa veder la foto.
GM: Questo è tutta, tutta storia, tutta la parentela anche il mia, la mi zia, che era su nona, hai capito? Dopo c’era mio cugino.
DC: Questo è ingegnere? No.
GM: No, lui no, lui è chimico credo.
DC: Ingegnere chimico. Sta a Riccione?
GM: Sì.
DC: Lo sai che io c’ho parlato con lui?
GM: Sì?
DC: E mi ha prestato il suo diario da fotocopiare?
GM: Ah sì?
DC: [laughs] Perché gli sono andato a chiedere se aveva voglia di raccontarmi. Lui mi fa, mi ha guardato, fa:’ma perché fa sta cosa?’ Dico: ‘Guardi, io sono un appassionato, io ho letto un libro che c’è’. E mi fa:’sa che sto diario l’ho dato alla biblioteca di Cattolica’ che dovevano fare qualcosa, tipo una pubblicazione così. Ma lo vuole leggere? Dico:’magari, se vuole, ma si fida?’ dico perché io lui non l’avevo mai visto, c’eravamo incontrati così per le mie ricerche.
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Me l’ha dato, mi ha prestato il diario, me lo sono, lui qui ha fatto la cronistoria di tutti gli aerei che ha visto cadere.
GM: Sì sì. [unclear] tutto.
DC: Ha fatto una roba fuori di testa. Ma ha visto un sacco di roba questo qui eh. Poi si erano spostati là nella colonia a Misano.
GM: Sì perché la colonia lì, perché mia zia.
DC: Ma pensa te, è tuo parente [laughs]
GM: Aveva sposato un Amati, no. I famosi Amati di Riccione.
DC: Di Riccione.
GM: Anche parente c’è qualche [unclear] eccetera e praticamente il marito di mia zia era uno che stava bene, era uno che, una persona, un grande pescatore.
DC: Stava a Mirano mi sembra lui, Francesconi?
GM: Mirano, lui è stato
DC: C’ha lavorato?
GM: Francesconi era il babbo di Rodolfo, hai capito, che era un gerarca fascista. E’ stato in Libia, cred che sia mort, na, na, dop la guerra l’è torni. [speaks dialect] direttor l’Alitalia un per. Hai capito?
DC: Com’era, uno di quelli che
GM: Dopo mia cugina si era disunita da lui come
DC: Quest na, è Germano?
GM: Questo è Germano.
DC: Dio bonamma, l’ho cercato che gli volevo parlare.
GM: [unclear] sta zitta. Questo è un altro libro di chiesa, però racconta anche un po’ questo di bombardamenti. Questo è “una spiaggia, una chiesa e una comunità”.
DC: E chi l’ha, ah, Manlio Masini. Bravo che lui scrive
GM: Questo è ’43. Dal ’12 al ’43.
DC: E parla del [unclear], anche qui della guerra?
GM: Questo parla un po’ della guerra anche.
DC: Sei amico te con lui, lo conosci?
GM: Masini? No, questo qui me l’ha dato un mio amico che era un professore; Marcello [unclear] perché el cognom [speaks dialect]. Era, siccome faceva, d’estate faceva il, il, parlava bene l’inglese e il francese, faceva, lavorava per, con l’areoporto per le agenzie, ora ho fatto anche il tassista, te capì? Per sto [unclear]
DC: Per un certo periodo.
GM: E allora hai capito, beh comunque, c’è la storia di qualche bombardamento perché c’è anche Marvelli, che ha lavorato anche lui nella Todt.
DC: Ah, lui era ingegnere.
GM: Lui era ingegnere.
DC: Era lì alla cosa, alla Maddalena, come sede, lui? [unclear] in giro?
GM: Ma io non, io non me lo ricordo. Io ho letto qui che lui ha lavorato nella Todt.
DC: Sì ma l’hanno detto che lui era.
GM: Hai capito, ho letto qui che c’è un racconto.
DC: Forse lui magari era in una delle altre sedi.
GM: Lui era ingegnere, hai capito, dopo parlava bene il tedesco lui perché la mamma era tedesca di lui.
DC: Ah, non lo sapevo questo.
GM: Hai capito.
DC: Fammi vedere il titolo che me lo scrivo. Allora, Manlio Masini, una spiaggia, una chiesa, una comunità. Fammi una cortesia.
GM: Dimmi.
DC: C’hai il numero di Germano, hai detto?
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Dammelo subito che così non mi dimentico che dopo, dopo di te, becco anche lui [laughs]. Che belle foto che ci sono.
GM: Qui ci sono anch’io in una processione.
DC: Ah sì? Te frequentavi la, il coso dei Salesiani?
GM: Io nel, nel ’38, quando ho passato la cresima, tutti [unclear] lì perché la chiesa era a Piazza Tripoli, noi qui non avevamo la parrocchia, hai capito?
DC: Non facevate con la Colonnella?
GM: No, la Colonnella era dalla parte di là. La Via Rimembranze era, una parte della ferrovia in là era Colonnella e fino, sulla destra era Colonnella e sulla sinistra era Piazza Tripoli. Comunque
DC: Ah, quindi te eri collegato là.
GM: Io ero collegato con la chiesa di [unclear], quindi Germano, Germano, Germano, Germano, 380424.
DC: E abita anche lui in questa via qui?
GM: Lui abita dirimpetto [unclear] c’è pure il tabaccaio che fa angolo qui.
DC: Sì.
GM: C’è un tabaccaio no. La stradina lì, la seconda casa, c’è un cancello con l’automatico.
DC: Con l’automatico. Ah, dio bo, lo chiamo eccome. Lo sai che l’ho cercato anche sotto Riccione, [unclear] siccome quelli lì sono quasi tutti di Riccione, dico, si vede che sta a Riccione [unclear]
GM: [unclear] Ha il distributore a Riccione.
DC: Ah.
GM: Allora uno c’ha regalato il libro, lui, me l’ha dato lui sto libro.
DC: E’ bellissimo.
GM: E allora dopo [unclear] ho letto tanti
DC: Questa storia qui.
GM: Eh.
DC: Il racconto di Dino, questo.
GM: Sì?
DC: Che era il fabbro di Spontricciolo.
GM: Spontricciolo.
DC: Lui, assieme ad altri due, ha tenuto nascosto un americano per tre mesi, un aviatore che si era buttato il 5 giugno del ’44 nella zona di Ospedaletto. Erano in dieci, sei li hanno catturati subito, quattro
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: Era, ma adesso arriviamo anche lì,
GM: Quando zè rivà, in che periodo che è caduto l’aereo?
DC: Cinque giugno ’44.
GM: Difatti, quando il fronte è passato in
DC: In settembre.
GM: In settembre
DC: Qui hanno combattuto a [unclear] dai primi di settembre.
GM: Era una fortezza volante.
DC: Era una fortezza volante.
GM: L’è cascè [speaks dialect] perché una volta c’era una fortezza volante, noi da porta san marino
DC: Vedevate tutto.
GM: Prendevamo una galleria che aveva tutto lo sbocco e abbiamo visto tutta la battaglia dei carri armati, si vedeva tutto, hai capito? E poi, era uno che aveva un binocolo buonissimo [unclear]
DC: La galleria quale, quella del Borgo Maggiore?
GM: No, era l’altra.
DC: [unclear] al convento dei frati?
GM: No. Dunque partiva, dal Borgo Maggiore partiva, dunque, petta,
Ui: Ce n’era una che faceva tutto il giro del monte
GM: No, Il nostro giro, la nostra galleria, quando tu venivi giù dalla città,
DC: Sì.
GM: Da San Marino, per andare già nel borgo, prima di prendere la penultima curva che [unclear] il borgo
DC: Che fa tutto il giro
GM: Sotto quel, quel coso lì c’è l’entrata di questa galleria
DC: Che fa tutto il giro del monte
GM: Che va, va a finire
DC: Al convento di Valdragone. Mi sembra, no?
GM: No, no, no, no, quello va a finire a Santa Mustiola. E prende un’altra galleria ancora che va nel borgo dopo.
DC: Ho capito.
GM: Ce n’erano due, hai capito, uno attacca l’altra.
DC: Quindi voi eravate dalla parte che guarda verso il mare.
GM: Noi guardavamo, sì, noi guardavamo verso il mare perché eravamo, quando uscivamo dalla galleria c’era uno spiazzale lì. Vedevamo il mare, Serravalle, e vedevamo, e se andavi su poi dopo vedevi anche Riccione eh cioè, però dovevi andare sulla strada, hai capito.
DC: Sì.
GM: Perché c’era la strada lì. Era una galleria che era ottocento metri credo, faceva un ferro da cavallo faceva
DC: Sì, girava intorno al monte,
GM: Sì.
DC: Praticamente.
GM: E vedevamo tutto Verucchio, tutto il Montebello, tutte le cose lì, tutti i compartimenti.
DC: Era una zona praticamente.
GM: Dalla galleria vedevi proprio i ultimi tedeschi scappava via
DC: E parlami di quel [unclear], di quella fortezza volante.
GM: Di quella fortezza volante, allora, è successo che sta fortezza volante andavano verso
DC: Verso sud.
GM: Verso sud.
DC: Stava rientrando da un bombardamento.
GM: Stava rientrando da un bombardamento. E questa che è qui ha preso verso la campagna qua, verso Cerasolo, su, su, e andava verso l’Arno. E poi tutta una volta si sono buttati via sti [unclear]
DC: Paracaduti.
GM: L’apparech andava verso Cattolica così, hai capito, [speaks dialect] quel casca.
DC: C’erano due caccia che lo attaccavano sta fortezza volante o era da sola?
GM: No, era da sola la
Ui: Allora è quello lì. Hai visto quello lì.
GM: Era da sola.
DC: Perché un mese prima ce n’era stato un altro sempre [unclear]
GM: Per me quella lì è stata colpita dalla contraerea.
DC: E’ esatto.
GM: E’ stata.
DC: A Bologna.
GM: Eh, difatti.
DC: Era andata a bombardare a Bologna.
GM: [speaks dialect] questo [speaks dialect] si vede che c’era qualcosa che non andava.
DC: I colleghi di, gli altri aeroplani che erano più avanti,
GM: Sì.
DC: Perché lui era rimasto attardato,
GM: Sì.
DC: Che non gli andavano i motori.
GM: Difatti [unclear] questo era lì per [unclear].
DC: Hanno scritto che era esploso in volo l’aereo. Te ti, quando è andato sul mare, secondo te, è andato giù nell’acqua o l’è sciupè?
GM: Io non ho visto [unclear] perché io [unclear] orca madonna butta zò [unclear] dopo hann detto che poi un po’ li hanno presi.
DC: Sei li hanno presi. Tre sono finiti a Monte Grimano e sono stati nascosti da un signore, con cui ho parlato, che li ha tenuti in casa
GM: [unclear]
DC: E il quarto era quello che ha aiutato lui.
GM: Ha avuto un bel coraggio.
DC: Quelli si sono incamminati, sono riusciti ad arrivare all’interno. Dopo hanno trovato dei partigiani che li hanno portati a Monte Grimano, in sta famiglia che stavano in una casa isolata. E lì sono stati circa due mesi. Poi dopo è arrivato il fronte e sono riusciti a consegnarsi. Lui invece che era rimasto aiutato da uno lì che era nella zona, questo, Dolci
GM: Sì, sì, sì.
DC: Questo, il Dolci di soprannome, era sfollato a Mulazzano.
GM: Ho capito.
DC: Dice, sono andato giù, per vedere dove erano atterrati sti aviatori. Dice, l’er ved un camion fascisti e tedeschi, ia ciap su, erano nel grano, dice, hann tirato, c’hanno mitragliato sopra in alto no questi col fazzoletto bianco così si sono arresi, dice, li ha ciap, ha detto, torno su a Mulazzano. Arrivo a Mulazzano e trovo un signore con la bicicletta che mi fa: ‘te’, siccome lui dava in giro i giornali proibiti, L’Unità così, faceva propaganda no, non era un partisen però si dava da fare e dai, lui era giovane.
GM: [speaks dialects]
DC: [speaks dialect] [laughs] Allora mi dice: ‘mi avvicina un signore con la bicicletta ha detto: ‘te che sei un partigiano, hai presente il Ristorante Vannucci a Mulazzano?
GM: Sì.
DC: Dietro il ristorante Vannucci, giù nella scarpata c’era questo aviatore, che qui c’è anche la fotografia, che si era slogato una caviglia e non riusciva a camminare. Diceva: ‘anda zì e aiutè perché quello non ries a moversi’ e da lì è nata la storia. E lui e gli altri, e un altro me l’ha raccontata tutta, ha fatto un libretto che ho depositato in biblioteca.
GM: Qui c’erano partigiani uno che faceva il tassista con me, lui è, per dire, che poi va detto, si chiamava Amati, Amati Gino, se tu guardi anche sul computer c’è Amati Gino
DC: A Rimini?
GM: Rimini sì. Era assieme con i tre che hanno impiccato lui eh. Quelli che sono scappati, è scappato via [unclear]
DC: Che è riuscito a
Gm: Scappar via a bruciapelo. La storia di lui.
DC: Lui è ancora vivo?
GM: No, è morto
DC: Vacca boia!
GM: E’ morto due, tre anni fa. E [unclear] dimmi Gino, insomma quante semo partigiani? [speaks dialect] durant la guerr eran tut partigien. [speaks dialect] In partigien sem sette o otto.
DC: [laughs]
GM: Quei poveracci che hanno ammazzato che poi delle grandi azioni non le hanno fatte.
DC: Grandi azioni qui a Rimini non le hanno fatte. Tagliavano i fili del telefono, mettevano i chiodi
GM: Bolini con la mazzetta, [unclear] fucilè fradè per sbai.
DC: Chi Bolini?
GM: Quelli di Bolini che
DC: Ciavatta.
GM: Ciavatta. Però
DC: [unclear]
GM: Era imparentato coi Bolini
Gm: Ciavatta er, erano quattro o cinque fratelli, no, la sai la storia
DC: Te li conoscevi, sì, me l’hanno raccontata.
GM: Io ho preso la pensione da loro quando
DC: Quando hai cominciato
GM: Quando hanno incominciato a fare la pensione a Marebello.
DC: Ah, Marebello avevano loro?
GM: Avevano la Pensione Emma lì no, che c’è ancora. Era dei Ciavatti quella lì.
GM: Che dopo poi loro ne hanno fatto un’altra là a Rivazzurra. E quella lì l’han venduta e noi l’abbiamo preso da lui in affitto quando
DC: Ho capito.
GM: Dopo l’ha presa una certa Giunchi e allora lì mi ricordo che ancora c’era ancora la mamma che era ancora [unclear]
DC: Poi con la storia che il fratello non si era consegnato [unclear]
GM: [unclear]
DC: E non tocchiamo questo discorso che qui siamo sul personale, dopo.
GM: E allora voglio dire che c’entravano [unclear] i partigiani, a volte [unclear] ah ma sei partigiano, ma che partigiano [unclear]. La battaglia [unclear].
DC: Durante il terzo bombardamento di Rimini i caccia tedeschi, te non so se te ne sei accorto,
GM: Caccia tedeschi.
DC: Caccia tedeschi hanno attaccato la formazione e hanno abbattuto due bombardieri, due fortezze volanti che sono andate a cadere, una a Città di Castello e una a Campo, che è verso
GM: Quello, quando è stato quel bombardamento lì?
DC: Quello è stato il 27 Novembre del ’43. Poi dopo ci sono stati quelli grossi
GM: Infatti, però hanno buttato giù anche un caccia tedesco che c’era un, c’erano i caccia della
DC: Della Repubblica Sociale.
GM: Della Repubblica Sociale.
DC: Quel giorno secondo te, è caduto?
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: E dove sarebbe caduto questo aereo lì?
GM: Sarebbe caduto là verso San Marino credo, sia caduto là a Fiorentino, penso io.
DC: Dietro San Marino, due aerei della Repubblica Sociale sono caduti, abbattuti per sbaglio dai tedeschi. Pensa te. Uno è caduto verso Montecopiolo e uno una decina di chilometri più in là. Questi italiani della Repubblica Sociale Italiana stavano inseguendo,
FS: Oh ciao!
DC: Ciao, salve, non salve, ciao [laughs], te, scusami, sai. C’hai il babbo che, è uno classe 1929 che può raccontare un sacco di robe e non m’hai mai detto niente?
SFS: Eh, certo, come no.
DC: Eh no, no. [laughs]
FS: Ne abbiam parlato, ne abbiam parlato.
DC: Come stai?
FS: Bene, te?
DC: Non c’è male.
FS: Come va il tuo libro?
DC: Eh io due, ho depositato due libri in biblioteca.
FS: Ah sì?
DC: Sì.
FS: Dai, ma due.
DC: Raccogliendo le robine così ma robine così da bastare eh
FS: Vabbè, ma sei un appassionato infatti la Patrizia è mia amica la Patrizia, quella bionda bionda della biblioteca
DC: Ah sì, la [unclear]
FS: La [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
FS: Mi dice sempre perché una volta così abbiamo parlato. Mi fa, ma dai ma [unclear] parlare di storia perché anche lei è laureata in, proprio in storia moderna, hai capito, la sua specializzazione. E allora faceva: ‘Ma dai non lo conosci, non, coso, Celli, no, ti ricordi, ‘come non lo conosco’, ha detto, è anche venuto a casa mia per, che facevi l’albero.
DC: Sì che facevo le ricerche
FS: Le ricerche. E infatti allora insomma.
DC: Allora mi faccio raccontare anche dal tuo babbo quello che ha passato lui. Dio bon, c’ha una memoria della Madonna, il tuo babbo.
GM: [unclear]
FS: Il mio babbo, ha su quelle cose lì il mio babbo, mio zio Luciano di là, dio bon, chi li ferma più. Infatti fai bene, stai facendo un [unclear]
DC: Io adesso raccolgo, dopo vedrò.
FS: Vedrai.
DC: Adesso intanto cerco di raccogliere.
FS: Ah bene bene bene. Poi dopo fa. Adesso qua che li verrai a vedere, eh, quei depositi là?
DC: [unclear]
FS: Devi chiedere alla Patrizia.
DC: Fammi vedere i libri di Celli. Ma ti dico, io non sono bravo a scrivere, quindi, è giusto per non perdere la memoria di quello che mi racconta.
FS: Eh, hai fatto bene. Le hai praticamente solo depositato come documento.
DC: Come documento.
FS: Come documento che se uno vuole reperire delle cose, no? Un ambientazione.
DC: Se uno vuole fare una ricerca sul passato bellico di Rimini, lì ci sono delle notizie.
FS: Come no, come no.
DC: E uno, che dicevo adesso al tuo babbo, è nato da una storia che ho letto su sto libro qui. Qui c’è uno che ha aiutato un americano
FS: E chi è, perché adesso non ho gli occhiali, città?
DC: ‘La città invisibile’.
FS: ‘invisibile’. L’ho sentita dire. E chi è l’autore?
DC: Fabio Galli, Glauco Galli.
GM: Glauco Galli.
FS: Glauco Galli.
DC: Deve essere uno che [unclear] dalla politica e adesso penso che abbia una carica a livello di provincia o di regione.
GM: Ah sì?
FS: Può essere.
DC: Deve essere un politico lui.
FS: Ma guarda. Bene allora quando mi capita, io vedo sempre, al sabato sono andata a trovare la Patrizia, adesso me li faccio vedere quei libri.
DC: Uno non te lo daranno sicuro perché è in unica copia ma il secondo che ho fatto su quella storia lì, è in duplice copia, quindi uno può uscire. Poi se lo vuoi, se mi dai l’indirizzo di posta elettronica, ti mando il pdf, te lo leggi così.
FS: Ah, beh dai, scrivilo. Daniela, no aspetta, danimurat
DC: Danimurat
FS: Danimurat, con una t, @alice.it. Ecco, a posto.
DC: Ti mando le ultime due che ho fatto.
FS: Grazie.
DC: Anzi, sono tre depositate in biblioteca. Uno che stava lì [unclear] Pino Burdon, adesso sta qui in Via Carlo Porta [unclear]. Lavorava da Ciavatta, quelli che facevano le reti dei letti.
GM: Burdon. Pino.
DC: Fabbri, la, sua moglie qui in Via Carlo Porta doveva avere un negozietto di mercerie mi sembra, c’hai presente?
GM: Burdon. Stavano in Via Pesaro una volta.
DC: Ma forse quello sarà un altro parente, qualcosa di collegato, mi aveva raccontato una storia durante ste ricerche che mi aveva incuriosito tantissimo ma non riuscivo a trovare riscontri. Lui aveva visto passare sul mare un aereo tedesco con sei motori, bassissimo, perché c’erano le nuvole che erano
GM: Allora avevano i sei motori?
DC: Avevano[unclear] aerei da trasporto di quella stazza lì.
GM: Sì ne avevano.
DC: E’ andato a sbattere contro il coso di Gabicce.
FS: Davvero, la cosa, il monte lì?
DC: Sì, ho sentito con dei ricercatori storici di areonautica, non lo sapeva nessuno di sta storia qua. E allora, cerca, cerca, cerca, ho trovato uno di Gabicce che lui personalmente non se lo ricordava, però c’era un suo vicino di casa che gli aveva raccontato sta storia. Ci siamo messi in contatto, siamo andati a fare un sopralluogo, mi ha fatto vedere dove era caduto, ho chiamato i miei amici di Bagnacavallo col metal detector, sono venuti, abbiamo trovato i pezzi, e c’era un testimone oculare che ci ha detto dov’era caduto quindi sapevamo che era lì e poi dopo guardando su internet, al cimitero tedesco della Futa, tra Bologna e Firenze, c’era, c’erano nove militari morti il 16 dicembre del ’42 e ho trovato il riscontro di quei nove lì, registrati nel cimitero di Pesaro perché un mio amico delle Marche, che ho contattato attraverso internet, chiedendogli se sapeva di sta storia, perché non riuscivo a trovare riscontri. Lui me l’aveva raccontato, questo qui di Bellariva e non c’era, non riuscivo a trovare né una data
FS: Certo, non riuscivi a trovare riferimenti.
DC: Riferimenti per approfondire la ricerca.
FS: Eh certo.
DC: Allora, un mio amico bravo, uno di quelli con il metal detector, che si sa spatacare bene con internet, ha trovato sti nove caduti cinquanta chilometri a sud di Rimini. Cinquanta chilometri serìa Fano però Gabicce, poi con quell’aereo lì ne è caduto uno solo qui intorno. E dopo ho sentito anche quelli del cimitero.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Andavano giù in Sicilia.
FS: Ma no, me l’aveva raccontato coso a me, [unclear] una volta
DC: Mulazzani?
FS: Mulazzani perché io una volta
DC: Di sto aereo con sei motori?
FS: No, che passavano questi aerei. Che lui si ricordava
DC: Andavano giù. Seguivano il mare, la costa.
FS: Ma aveva parlato anche di una rotta. Adesso a m’arcord perché avevo scritto per la Granzela no, il giornalino facevo perché intervistavo [unclear] anch’io dei personaggi ma giusto a livello di narrativa, non di storia. Però naturalmente quando che ne so, magari intervistavo Mulazzani o mio zio, erano tutte cose legate alla guerra perché per loro era un ricordo vivo.
DC: Era qualcosa che, ecco, esatto.
FS: Quindi mi raccontava di questo, di questi aerei
DC: E insomma, dopo ho sentito quelli del cimitero di Pesaro. Gli ho detto, guardate, io ho trovato sto riscontro di nove caduti perché questo, l’amico delle Marche mi ha detto:’Guarda, io non so di questo aereo caduto, però ho trovato nelle mie ricerche un servizio su Il Corriere dell’Adriatico che parlava di un funerale di tedeschi ma non diceva né dove erano morti e né di che aereo erano’. Però un numero così, guarda, alcuni tedeschi, il funerale. Allora con quell’articolo lì, sentendo col cimitero se trovavano riscontro con la data di quell’articolo, mi ha trovato gli stessi che erano su al cimitero del Parco della Futa. Lì c’era scritto che era un aereo con sei motori perché c’era la sigla dell’aereo e quindi si è chiuso il cerchio.
FS: Si è chiuso il cerchio.
DC: E dopo ho presentato anche quella lì [unclear].
FS: Che bella questo.
DC: Ti mando anche quella.
FS: Ma questo, guarda, stai facendo un lavorone.
GM: Sì, anche a San Marino è caduto uno.
DC: Sì, è andato a sbattere contro la montagna un giorno che c’era nebbia. C’è, nel cimitero di San Marino c’è
GM: C’è l’elica.
DC: La tomba con l’elica. Sono andato a fargli la fotografia.
GM: Ah sì?
DC: Quei miei amici col metal detector hanno fatto un libro su tutti gli aerei che hanno censito loro.
GM: Su quella collina, sotto la città
DC: Montecchio si chiama lì, mi sembra.
GM: Non so. Dove ero io, io ero a Le Piagge, [unclear] che è poco lontano dal centro, no, dal paese e c’è una collinetta, hai capito, che si va giù a Santa Mustiola lì e st’aereo [unclear] quella volta.
DC: Veniva dalla zona di Ravenna e stava rientrando anche [unclear].
GM: Ma io penso che era uno di quei bimotori,
DC: Bimotori, bravissimo.
GM: Pippo, Pippo il bombardiere, che faceva [unclear], butteva zò una bomba.
DC: Buttava una bomba di cla, una bomba di là,
GM: Sempre quel fazeva.
DC: E disturbava il sonno della gente.
GM: Buttava i bengala, che s’illuminava tutto, no e poi faceva un giretto e [makes a booming noise] [unclear].
DC: Ma sai che quegli aerei
GM: Al Ponte di Verucchio, quando noi eravamo nella galleria, [speaks dialect]
DC: [laughs]
GM: Hai capì, ecco, arriva Pippo buttava zò i bengala e poi [makes a booming noise] e no i ne ciapava mai quel ponte, l’ha fat saltar per aria i tedeschi
DC: I tedeschi quando si sono ritirati
GM: Quando si sono ritirati. Hai capito?
DC: M’ha detto uno che stava dalla parte di là, m’ha detto, [unclear], i pezzi della roba che sono saltati, ha detto [unclear], ha detto, anche loro, ha detto, abbiamo visto un sacco di attacchi su quel ponte e non l’hann mai ciap.
GM: Non la mai ciap. Tutta scena [unclear]
DC: [speaks dialect]
FS: Ma pensa te. Bravo. Allora bene.
DC: Ti mando se c’hai voglia di leggere qualcosa
FS: No, ma è interessante, no ma mi piace molto la tua passione, no, perché io ce l’ho con i libri quella passione lì, nel senso come ricerca degli scritti, delle, no, a chi appartengono. Adesso non le faccio più quelle ricerche lì, però prima mi piaceva. E dai, è bello, è bello quando scopri, no
DC: A me piace tantissimo.
FS: Che arrivi, come hai detto te, che [unclear]
DC: Che riesci a trovare i riscontri
FS: Arrivi al, che ne so, al manuscritto del, questo [unclear] l’ha scritto quello, per dire.
DC: Io al tuo babbo gli ho chiesto per telefono, sai di quei due fucilati perché.
GM: Ho dunque quelli lì, sì io ho sentito un paio di volte
DC: A colonia De Orchi hanno [unclear] ragazzi
GM: Però, ho chiesto a mio fratello anche perché [speaks dialect] che cla volte hanno amazzè tutti a De Orchi perché io mi ricordo, quando sono venuto giù dalla guerra diciamo che siamo venuti che son venuto giù prima io dei miei, di mia mamma e di mio babbo, no, mio babbo era venuto giù, di mia mamma. Era passato mio cugino che andava dal dottore a San Marino perché aveva un infezione in un occhio e lui stava [speaks dialect]
DC: Al pedrune
Gm: Al pedrune. E io sono andato con lui che pioveva come oggi così. Siam passati tutta la campagna dove c’erano ancora le mine, i mort ancora mess a gambe de fura,
DC: Dio poi!
GM: hai capito?
DC: Cos’hanno visto questi.
FS: [unclear]
GM: Proprio c’era ancora.
DC: Tutto così, era successo da poco
GM: Il mio babbo, [unclear] con un casco su un bastone,
DC: [unclear] Un bastone.
GM: Per gli inglesi metteva il casco inglese, se eran tedeschi metteva il casco tedesco.
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: I tedeschi li lasciavano così più che altro, m’hann detto.
GM: Sì guarda. E voglio dire che sono venuto giù e dopo che dopo, il giorno dopo sono andato a prendere la bicicletta [speaks dialect] alla dugena da una mia zia che era sfollata lì. I cupertun [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Allora [speaks dialect] cercione
FS: Madonna.
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Strada vecchia di San Marino che era tutta una colonna di carri armati. [unclear] Puttana Madonna [unclear]
DC: Loro ce l’avevano la roba, eh.
GM: Tanta roba che ha questi qui. Ti facevi il coso coi tedeschi che erano ridotti [unclear]
DC: All’osso. [unclear]
GM: Con le vacche
DC: Con le vacche [unclear]
GM: Che dopo [unclear] ero arrivato lì alla Grotta Rossa, me davano cioccolata, m a’rcord ne [speaks dialect] sta bicicletta cerciun [unclear]
FS: Cioccolata [unclear] ce la puoi fare.
DC: Ma chi che l’aveva mai vista, la cioccolata?
GM: Non l’avevo mai vista la cioccolata. Hai capito?
DC: [laughs] [unclear] E allora che cosa ti diceva tuo fratello di quei due?
GM: Mi diceva:’Na, [unclear]
DC: No, no [unclear]
GM: Perché Gino, ma perché lui era in ferrovia mio fratello, no, aveva, era giovane, [unclear] diciassett diciotto anni. Però lui prendeva tutti i treni, tutti i giorni il treno poi passava da mia nonna che era ancora qui e poi dopo ogni tanto veniva a vedere della casa e poi andava a prendere il trenino per venire su a San Marino, noi dopo eravamo a San Marino.
DC: Finché ha funzionato.
GM: E lui sapeva più informazioni. Lui ha detto che:’No, lì l’unica cosa è che hanno ammazzato, sono stati quei tre tedeschi che tenevano la resistenza da [unclear] che poi erano seppelliti lì vicino [unclear]
DC: Come mi dicevi, me l’ha detto Zangeri, che li hanno seppelliti lì dove c’era quel traliccio
GM: Sì bravo.
DC: Davanti a Papini la, coso lì.
GM: Sì, erano tre tedeschi lì.
DC: Guarda che è vero quello della fucilazione.
GM: Sì, quello della fucilazione può essere, però la ricerca non c’è di quelli lì.
DC: Adess sta a sentire cosa mi è capitato. Il primo che mi ha raccontato di questa cosa è stato Tonino Baschetta, quello che fa i cesti a [unclear].
GM: I cesti.
UI. Lo conosci?
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Sandrini lì. [unclear] poliziotto [unclear] suicidato.
GM: No, non lo conosco.
DC: Sandrino, due anni meno di noi aveva.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Tonino Baschetta sta qui in Via Davanzati, qui, è vicinissimo. Qui, e lui [unclear]. Quando noi eravamo bambini avevano la bottega attaccata al Bar Vici. L’alimentari.
FS: Ah. Eh. Eh.
DC: Suo figlio, lui quando era bambino dice, loro stavano lì vicino alla Corial, sopra la [unclear]. Dice, c’avevano i tedeschi in casa perché venivano su dal fronte, si schiaffavano nelle case del contadino e dice, cosa faccio io ero diventato amico con loro, molti erano giovani cosa facevano la mattina presto? Prendevano i loro carri, andavano già verso Marina centro, le case con i bombardamenti erano tutte disabitate, spaccavano la porta, entravano, portavano via di tutto. Dice, facevano dei carri di roba. Arrivavano lì a casa mia, facevano le casse di legno, schiaffavano roba dentro, portavano alla stazione e mandavano in Germania. Fa, ma sono stati lì da me due tre mesi, dice, la roba, la roba che hann port via, io andavo con loro, ha detto, perché ero giovane. Un giorno tornando con sti carri, arrivano lì vicino al tiro a volo, un tedesco in mezzo alla strada li ferma, sentono la scarica di fucile e poi li fanno passare. Quando arriviamo davanti, [unclear], li hanno fucilati tra la colonia e il gruppo di bagni che c’è verso il distributore di Giorgio.
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Lì contro il muro li hanno fucilati.
GM: [unclear] anche a me avevano detto così.
DC: E lui mi ha detto: ‘Il tedesco, quando siamo stati lì vicino, mi ha messo le mani sugli occhi ma io sono riuscito a vedere. C’erano due ragazzi stesi per terra. Dicevano che erano due toscani che li avevano presi a tagliare i fili del telefono dei tedeschi e li hanno fucilati. Invece, avevo mandato, sapendo, pensando che fossero partigiani, ho mandato mail all’ANPI di Ancona, all’ANPI di, tutto qui intorno,
FS: Sì sì sì.
DC: All’ANPI di Firenze, all’ANPI di Ravenna, non mi ha rispost nienche nissun. Solo un istituto di Ravenna mi ha dato risposta che loro non conoscevano sta storia. Un giorno, leggendo un libro di Forlì, di Mambelli che ha fatto la cronistoria di quello che succedeva soprattutto a Forlì, ma due libri più grossi di quello, con un sacco di dati interessantissimi. Trovo, tre marzo 1944, fucilati due ragazzi a Forlì e di uno c’era anche il nome. Erano di Faenza. Questi qui probabilmente erano, si erano dovuti arruolare nella Repubblica Sociale verso, quando te ti sei iscritto nella Todt. Molti per non dover farsi richiamare, andavano nella Todt perché lì eri esentato dal presentarti. Questi qui probabilmente hanno cercato di scappare via, li hanno presi e li hanno fucilati. Quindi su quel libro ho trovato un nome, vado al cimitero di Rimini, c’era il nome lui e di quell’altro. Quindi son i due nomi, erano tutti e due del ’25, avevano diciannove anni e li sono venuti a riprendere i familiari dopo nel ‘45, dopo la guerra. Ho conosciuto [unclear]
GM: E allora come diceva quello lì che li hanno fucilati
DC: Li hanno fucilati lì contro il muro
GM: Alla fine del De Orchi e l’altra palazzina.
DC: Sono entrato in contatto con uno di Faenza, gentilissimo, che mi ha mandato anche dei dati su Rimini che li ha rimediati non so dove, e lui mi ha mandato anche la fotografia di uno di quei due. M’ha mandato la fotografia del monumento che c’è a Faenza dove ci sono riportati i loro nomi ma dell’altro ancora non sono riuscito a rimediare la foto. Ho sentito con quelli dell’anagrafe di Faenza. Mi hanno detto che, volevo parlare con, contatto con i familiari per vedere di avere.
FS: Eh sì, un riscontro diciamo vero.
DC: Dei riscontri. Di uno sono morti tutti, un altro si è trasferito a Cesena e con quel nome lì non figura nessuno. Adesso dovrei provare a sentire se a Cesena mi dicono, vivono, ci sono degli eredi perché dopo c’è il discorso della riservatezza, è un po’ fatica.
FS: Sì, un po’ fatica.
DC: Però,
FS: Può darsi che
DC: Può darsi che come l’hann fatto gli altri
GM: Io mi ricordo questo qui
DC: E quelli di Faenza dell’anagrafe mi hanno mandato un documento in pdf dove c’è scritto addirittura: ‘fucilati dai tedeschi’ e c’è anche il nome di un tenente della repubblica sociale che era andato sotto processo per quel, per quell’uccisione. Che era di Pesaro questo qui, quest’ufficiale.
FS: Ma pensa te.
DC: Quindi.
FS: Devo salutare. Ciao carissimo.
DC: Piacere di averti visto.
FS: Alla prossima.
GM: Però l’hanno,
FS: Continua così.
DC: [laughs]
GM: Non l’hanno, dico pure, l’hanno spenta così perché io dopo.
DC: All’ANPI qui di Rimini non sa niente nessuno. Li hanno fucilati. Potevano dire, sono due partigiani.
GM: Infatti io mi ricordo che eravamo, ma ti ho detto, dopo la guerra subito, e dopo siamo andati a lavorare un po’ anche con gli inglesi, a lavorè anche a De Orchi [speaks dialect]
DC: Con gli alleati.
GM: Con la [unclear]
DC: Che lì c’erano un magazzino di roba m’hann detto della Madonna.
GM: Madonna.
DC: [laughs]
GM: [unclear]
DC: [laughs] Però, tu, petta adess bisogna che la va a chieder perché se no la mi madre, la mi moglie. Te vuoi andè a prender [speaks dialect] uno di sti dì?
GM: Sì, sì, la facciamo.
DC: Dai, così continuiamo il discorso del bombardamento di San Marino. Comunque te ti ricordi un sacco di roba.
GM: Sì, eh mi ricordo tutto quello che
DC: Petta eh, l’ultima roba che m’hann detto su quell’aereo che avete visto
GM: Sparire
DC: Sparire.
GM: Io, per me è cascat [unclear] quell’aereo
DC: Gli alleati, i loro colleghi hanno detto, è andato sul mare, è tornato sulla terra ed è esploso in volo. Dovrebbe essere caduto tra Gradara e Gabicce, quelle zone lì, Cattolica, quel settore lì.
GM: Quel settore lì è caduto quello lì, [unclear]
DC: Un mese prima di questo fatto, ma non so se te l’hai visto, era passato, basso stavolta, perché questo doveva essere abbastanza su, era passato un altro quadrimotore che avevo dietro le calcagna due aerei tedeschi che, un da sotto e un da sora il mitraglieva. Sono arrivati fino a San Clemente, anche lì si sono buttati tutti i paracadutisti tranne il mitragliere di coda che, poretto si vede che l’avevano ucciso quei, i caccia
GM: I caccia
DC: E poi questo qui è andato a cadere tra Levola, Saludecio, Montefiore, quelle zone là. Te questo, te lo ricordi un aereo grosso, basso, che lasciava il fumo, attaccato da due caccia?
GM: No, ma io mi ricordo un’altra roba, che eravamo a San Marino che una formazione di aerei tedeschi, inglesi che andava verso nord, che passavano
DC: Bombardieri
GM: Bombardieri che andavano verso la campagna
DC: Sì
GM: E lì si sono sfilati dall’aeroporto qui di Rimini
DC: Sono decollati da qui, gli sono andati dietro
GM: Sono andati dietro e lì c’è stato un [speaks dialect] quella volta ma era in [speaks dialect].
DC: Perché ha incominciato il bombardamento?
GM: Perché c’era, c’era i caccia inglesi che c’erano anche i [unclear]
DC: Quelli con due code?
GM: Con due code.
DC: Sì.
GM: Puttana la Madonna.
DC: Li han fatt combattiment?
GM: Combattiment [speaks dialect]
UI. [laughs]
GM: [speaks dialect] dopo l’è finì perché [speaks dialect]
DC: [unclear] Quindi erano anche abbastanza bassi.
GM: Bassi, si vedeva proprio [unclear], puttana madonna, e la formazione andava avanti. E c’era sto combattimento che avevano fatto sopra Cà Berlone [?], Santa Mustiola
DC: Però non è caduto nessun apparecchio, secondo te?
GM: Non ho visto cadere nessuno, io lì.
DC: Questo non me l’aveva mai raccontato nessuno.
GM: Ah e l’è cla volta l’è sta un cumbattiment
DC: Quanto potrà essere durato, cinque minuti, dieci minuti?
GM: Eh
DC: Gli ha sparà na [unclear]?
GM: Sì dieci minuti, sì, sette minuti sicuro.
DC: Secondo te quanti aerei ci potevano essere in questo combattimento?
GM: La formazione dei caccia, [unclear] ce ne erano due, tre, che giravano.
DC: E chi è il tedesco, secondo te?
GM: E il tedesco, penso, due o [unclear]
DC: Altrettanto.
GM: Altrettanto.
DC: A Monte Tauro c’è stato un combattimento aereo. Due aerei si sono andati anche a sbattere e quello americano è morto poeretto. Il tedesco si è buttato con il paracadute.
DC: Io ho visto una volta proprio in volo sopra Covignano [?] sempre dalla galleria allora che lì Covignano ogni tent i caccia
DC: Lì hanno attaccato di brutto.
Gm: [unclear] Una volta proprio ho visto, proprio presi in pieno con una cannonata.
DC: Ne è caduto uno di aereo sotto la chiesa di San Fortunato. E [speaks dialect], sai dove gl’è? A metà sulla spalla ho parlato con uno che stava nel Ghetto. Dopo la guerra lui, quando è finito i combattimenti, ha recuperato un motore che l’ha portato giù e l’ha venduto alla stracciaia. Se, come dici te, lo hanno preso, lui si è schiantato lì contro la costa, a metà costa.
GM: Dopo [unclear], il giorno dopo
DC: Che aereo era, secondo te? Era un caccia?
GM: Era un caccia, erano i famosi Spitfire, hai capito.
Ui: Uno si era schiantato alla garitta della dogana. Che aveva fatto l’attacco basso
GM: Anche
DC: L’ha sbagliè, non ha calcolato bene, ha strisciato il terreno, s’amazzè lì.
GM: S’amazzè lì. Ah, qui passeva da sopra lì quando vedevano, io mi ricordo una volta c’era due, tre camion tedeschi che passavano uno ogni tanto, no, perché stavano in distanza. Era sempre un tedes sora. La Madonna, l’era un caccia [speaks dialect] un caccia sopra
DC: Come l’ha visto, eh
GM: Come l’ha visto, puttana madonna, che il tedesco s’è buttè del camion e
DC: [laughs]
GM: [mimics machine gun sounding]
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: [speaks dialect] Prima di, tra Verucchio e Borgo Maggiore, sulla strada lì.
DC: Arca madonna, sulla strada da, quello che girava
GM: Ah lì [unclear]
DC: Uno m’ha detto è tedesco ma aveva messo, un italiano, dovevano andare a Pesaro a prendere materiale. M’ha detto, m’avevano messo sopra il carro che io dovevo guardare [unclear] [laughs] ho detto, batti sulla cabina se vedi caccia che a buttèm a terra. Ha dett, se m’andè ben cla volta. Dai, che adesso ti lascio.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gino Muratori
Description
An account of the resource
Gino Muratori (b. 1929) recollects three Rimini bombings that occurred in November 1944, one of which was aimed at the Ausa river bridge. Mentions his grandmother losing two relatives when their boarding house was destroyed. Remembers how on 26 November 1944 they didn’t hear the alarm sounding and sought shelter only after seeing aircraft approaching. Describes evacuees being temporarily housed at local hotels. Remembers German anti-aircraft guns and barbed-wire fences, and recollects being employed by the Todt organization as a construction worker, toiling alongside Ukrainian and Polish prisoners of war deployed as truck drivers. Tells of his father being sent to Germany to work in a submarine factory. Discusses various anecdotes; dogfights; aircraft jettisoning fuel tanks; looting of private houses; strafing of German military transport; "Pippo" dropping flares and bombs at night time. Describes the whereabouts, use and general arrangement of German fortifications along the Adriatic coast.
Creator
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Daniele Celli
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-14
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:05:29 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMuratoriLG161125
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Rimini
Temporal Coverage
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1944-11
1944-11-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
forced labour
home front
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/PBirelliG1701.1.jpg
9c75ae32c45c0ae26726392ca6e85d6c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/ABirelliG171223.2.mp3
09f10c8588a2ca32dff84c4370287a0a
Dublin Core
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Title
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Birelli, Giuliana
Giuliana Birelli
G Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giuliana Birelli who recollects her wartime experiences in rural Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Birelli, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GF: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Greta Fedele. L’intervistato è Birelli Giuliana. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted], presso la casa della signora Giuliana il 23 dicembre 2017.
GB: Allora.
GF: Grazie mille per aver accettato di parlare con noi. Volevo chiederle, così per iniziare, prima che iniziasse la guerra, quanti anni aveva, dove viveva, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, quello che vuole.
GB: Allora io avevo sei anni. Già parte?
GF: Sì, sì.
GB: Sei anni e vivevo a Lisciano Niccone Perugia, Perugia, per cui ero una bambina piccola mi ricordo appena appena. Mio papà e la mia mamma, c’avevano, facevano il contadino e a noi bimbi che eravamo otto, otto bimbi, ci ha portato tutto in mezzo ai boschi, ci ha fatto tutto come un rifugio in mezzo ai boschi e siamo stati lì giorno e notte perché i tedeschi venivano casa per casa. A un certo punto quando sono arrivati, non so se erano i partigiani che bombardavano, hanno bombardato un ponte da Lisciano Niccone per andare a Mercatale, quel ponte lì l’hanno spianato. Mercatale di Cortona, Arezzo. Era un’altra provincia, non era Perugia. Comunque a noi c’hanno spazzato la casa, portavano via vino, portavano via prosciutti, se trovavano le ragazze, le molestavano anche, le facevano del male, e in più, eh niente, i uomini li prendevano, li portavano via. E la mia mamma, che era una donna che aveva otto figli, per andare a trovare un figlio all’ospedale sono stati rapinati dai tedeschi. E loro, posso andà avanti?
GF: Certo, certo.
GB: E loro, eh, cioè, briachi come erano, l’avevano portati al loro rifugio. Erano due signore, la mamma, la mia mamma, e un’amica che andavano a trovare na figlia che era operata in ospedale a Perugia, cosa hanno fatto? Quei tedeschi lì si erano addormentati che erano talmente briachi, loro piano piano piano sono scappati, sono andati da na famiglia e sono riusciti a scappare, se no, non so cosa gli capitava. Poi eh, io che posso dire?
GF: Ma si ricorda il giorno in cui è scoppiata la guerra?
GB: eh, [unclear]
GF: Cosa stava facendo? Se era a scuola, era a casa? Come gliel’hanno detto i suoi genitori?
GB: E [unclear], quando è scoppiata la guerra io non ti so dire.
GF: Ok.
GB: Quando è finita praticamente, finita di, a giugno mi sembra, no? Che dopo c’erano, erano arrivati i tedeschi, erano arrivati i americani per liberare l’Italia, no? E dopo è finita quella maniera lì. Io non mi ricordo più di niente eh perché ci vogliono i vecchi eh che si ricordano ste cose [laughs], non una bambina così.
GB: E quando andava a scuola durante la guerra, si ricorda se le maestre le, vi spiegavano cosa stava succedendo? Come vi dovevate comportare?
GB: Era già finita la guerra quando io sono andata a scuola, perché allora si andava da sette anni. Io non avevo sette in anni in quel momento lì. Allora no, con le maestre se ne parlava dopo di guerre che avevano distrutto proprio il paese ma no, quel momento della guerra io a scuola non andavo. E niente, così. E portato via tutti i prosciutti, tutti de, i maiali, le bestie perché prendevano anche le bestie grandi, le mucche, i vitelli, portavano tutti i tedeschi eh.
GF: E sono venuti proprio nella vostra casa?
GB: Casa, sì, sì, sì, sì, noi si dormiva al bosco c’aveva fatto il rifugio il papà, no? Aveva fatto il rifugio a noi, [unclear] stava giorno e notte su, lu camminava, li curava dove andavano, perché andavano a gruppi loro, no? Fare kaput dicevano, hai capito? Allora li curava, andava giù, prendeva la roba per darci da mangiare. Portava anco le bestie, aveva fatto il rifugio anco per le bestie perché spazzavano via tutto eh.
GF: E avevate paura?
GF: Cavoli, molta paura, molta paura perché si sentivano, arrivavano i caccia, arrivavano i caccia proprio e, Perugia è montagne e pianura, no? Venivano fuori dalla montagna, sembrava ti cadessero addosso, sì, sì, questo me lo ricordo bene eh. Che ancora quando li vedi hai quel punto di paura, sì.
GF: Perché li vedeva vicino questi aerei.
GB: Vicino, cioè sbucavano dalla montagna, s’abbassavano proprio, è na cosa che è rimasta proprio da noialtri bambini, mhm mhm mhm. E niente, dopo io non so cosa ti devo dire.
GF: E suonavano gli alarmi quando si avvicinavano questi aerei per avvisarvi?
GB: No, no, no, niente allarmi da quelle parti lì, niente allarmi, niente, niente, no, no, nessuno ti avvisava che scoppiava una mina, che arrivavano magari dalla montagna a fianco buttavano la mina dall’altra parte, niente, arrivava il boom della mina e basta, hai capito? Io mi ricordo che finita cioè era giugno che si falciavano il grano e na mina mi è caduta proprio dove falciavano il grano, aveva fatto una buca che sembrava che chissà cos’era caduta. Di morti no, però lo spavento tanti, tanti, tanto spavento. Loro che erano con tutti sti bambini piccoli figurati, ero la penultima, eh.
GF: Quindi aveva dei fratelli più grandi.
GB: Erano tutti più grandi,
GF: Tutti più grandi.
GB: Quegli altri, tutti ragazzini erano capisci. Sposata era una sola e il fratello, quello che è morto adesso, se no le altre erano tutte piccole, quelle più grandi di me ce n’erano tre femmine, tre ragazze. Dopo.
GF: E I suoi fratelli maschi? Qualcuno era soldato all’epoca o erano troppo piccoli?
GB: No, no, erano troppi piccoli per andare soldati. No, no, loro non, cioè, noi dalla nostra parte militari nessuno, no. E il papà non l’ha fatto, non l’hanno preso perché aveva tutti figli hai capito? Aveva questi otto figli, non poteva, e poi andare a fare il militare perché c’aveva anco il papà e la mamma vecchi, nonni. Eh, hai capito? La casa non era sbarcata, non avevano toccato la casa solo che noi l’avevamo abbandonata dalla paura. Mhm mhm mhm.
GF: Ehm, e quindi mi diceva che spesso questi aerei volavano vicino a voi.
GB: Sì, vicino, sì, sì, uscivano dalla montagna, della montagna di Passignano sul Trasimeno, sempre Perugia e lì, eh, Lisciano Niccone su una vallata piana. E uscivano da quella montagna, sembrava che toccavano i rami delle piante poi si abbassavano, [makes a lowpitched droning noise] e partivano tutte, sì, si.
GF: E sganciavano delle bombe?
GB: E dalle parti sì eh, dalle parti delle montagne le lanciavano, no sulla pianura.
GF: E voi lo vedevate?
GB: E sì eh, le si hann viste, io due bombe ho visto a scoppiare, dalla campagna dove mietevano il grano, dove falciavano il grano e dalla vallata proprio dove a fianco di noi della nostra casa. Eh sì!
GF: E si ricorda che sentimenti ha provato in quel momento?
GB: Brivido di paura, brivido di paura che adesso è la fine, se per caso invece di prendere la montagna di là prendevano dove, perché tutti i contadini avevano fatto il rifugio dalle montagne, dal bosco, no? Ma se per caso ti prende di qua che non c’è nessuno prendevano lì, spianavano le famiglie intere, sì. Eh, paura, molta paura, piccola però ti ricordi ancora quel brivido lì. Mhm mhm.
GF: E suo papà le raccontava cosa stava succedendo?
GB: Eh, veniva su, aveva paura, ‘stete dentro, stete dentro’, sai noi ragazzine, eh si giocava, noi, zitti zitti, si doveva sempre stare zitti, sempre a silenzio. E io ero quasi la più piccola, però quelle altre che erano ragazzine più grande, c’è sempre tre anni, una tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, c’erano anche ce avevano quasi vent’anni eh, più anche. Eh no, comunque è stata una cosa, che io la so raccontare male perché ero piccolina ma i vecchi se c’era qualche vecchio la raccontava meglio di me, sicuro, sicuro. E niente così.
GF: Quindi stavate in questo rifugio in mezzo ai boschi che aveva costruito suo papà.
GB: In mezzo al bosco, in mezzo al bosco, tutti coperti, tutte, tutte, aveva fatto sto rifugio sotto e l’aveva tutto coperto di rami che loro anco se scendevano dalla montagna i caccia non vedevano eh. Alla sera era sempre buio eh, alla sera mica accendevi luci eh.
GF: Tutto spento.
GB: Tutto spento, tutti zitti, tutti spenti. Era così.
GF: E come passivate il tempo in quei momenti?
GB: Come passivate? Noi ragazze, noi, io ero bambina ma le ragazze più grandi avevano voglia di giocare, di fare. Eh ma sai, c’era la paura dovevi stare zitte, con la paura stavi zitti, o morire, o stare zitti eh.
GF: E sapevate chi era che vi stava bombardando?
GB: Erano, erano tedeschi quelli, i tedeschi. Tedeschi che venivano, no? Perché sapevano che c’erano lì per, persone, tedeschi. E dopo sono arrivati i partigiani, no? I partigiani. Era il tedesco che colpiva il partigiano. Come anche in Lombardia, no? Scendevano dalle montagne quando era finita la guerra, tutti sti partigiani, tutti sti belli ragazzi. Questo me l’ho sentita raccontare perché io qui avevo un cognato, il fratello de Benito che era qui, e ha sposato una lombarda e lui si era innamorato di sta ragazza, tempo di guerra ma non potevano stare assieme. Cosa ha fatto? Lui è andato partigiano, è andato partigiano ai monti è andato, ma tanti l’hanno uccisi de sti partigiani. Dopo quando è venuto a casa che è tornato dai monti, l’ha sposata. Hai capito? Sì, sì, anche sta storia perché io del sessanta dopo sono venuta, sono sposata, sono venuta su in Lombardia, questi la. Io raccontavo la guerra di quella laggiù e loro questa. Loro più partigiani in Lombardia. Laggiù, giù da noi partigiani un po’ meno. Tanti tedeschi, tedeschi hanno fatto spazza pulita se non arrivavano gli americani, eh.
GF: E lei si ricorda quando sono arrivati gli americani?
GB: E quando sono arrivati i americani quando hanno detto, io non me la ricordo cosa avranno detto però che è finita la guerra tutti, tutti, un urlo de gioia, capito?
GF: Avete festeggiato?
GB: Eh, tutti contenti, contadini se sono radunati, hanno buttato via le bare, le baracche che avevano fatto [laughs], tutti no, perché qui c’è il contadino, qui c’è un altro, qui c’è un altro, eravamo tutta una zona di contadini, sì. E comunque c’è stato perché dopo noi avevamo su, l’altro paesino che sarà stato un chilometro e mezzo che non si poteva andare perché avevano bombardato il ponte e che non passavi per andare all’altro paese ch’avevamo la farmacia, avevamo tutto di là perché c’è poco. Loro facevano un’altra provincia noi un’altra però come, loro, il comune era di Cortona, noi eravamo di Lisciano Niccone, noi era il paese più piccolo però aveva il comune, ha il comune. Pensi che quello è un paese più grosso e non ha il comune, deve fare chilometri per andare al comune. E allora per quanto non si poteva andare né in farmacia, niente, non dovevano. Sai, era il ponte grande, c’era l’acqua per attraversare se non c’è il ponte dove traversi? Loro avevano messo qualcosa tra i due comuni quando è finita la guerra per podè passare da un paese all’altra. E niente, così.
GF: Quindi lei si ricorda questo ponte distrutto.
GB: Sì, sì, sì, distrutto, che non sapevano dove andare, per andare in farmacia, per andare tante cose di là c’erano, c’erano le banche che noi non avevamo le banche di qua perché le banche sono dalla parte de sto paesino qua, ancora oggi, per esempio mio fratello, eh, mio fratello che è morto, ha tutti i soldi da quelle banche lì e noi non riusciamo a prendere niente perché quella de Monte Paschi di Siena è lì, hai capito? E’ tutta, tutta na storia, na catena che noi non avevamo la banca di qua. Perché, per andare a Perugia la regione proprio, la, dovevi andare a quaranta chilmetri per andare a Perugia, Perugia, eravamo più dalla parte di Arezzo, eh, hai capito? Così.
GF: Quindi suo padre faceva fatica.
GB: E quand’è stata sì, il momento di guerra che ha durato un po’, no? Io adesso de preciso non te so dì quanto ha durato però ha durato un po’ per, c’aveva i anziani, nonni, c’aveva i genitori lui, noi nonni, che avevano bisogno delle medicine, hai capito? Un certo momento la nonna si è ammalata e non passavano, non podevano andare con le macchine perché allora non c’erano strade, le portavano con la, con li carrelli così, eh, era una vita proprio de medio evo, no? Sì, sì. Ecco, e così.
GF: Ma quando stavate nel rifugio lei si sentiva sicura?
GB: Nel rifugio sì perché era,
GF: Si sentiva sicura.
GB: Loro avevano scavato sti uomini e poi l’avevano tutta coperta de sta roba qui, eh sei sicura, solo se dovevano venire le mine come, n’ann buttate due, eh, che mi ricordo io, era difficile che le buttavano però due l’hann buttate proprio dalla fine della guerra, quelle due l’hann buttate e dopo quando hanno bombardato il ponte di là è stata, è stata, gli aerei da una parte l’altra l’hann buttate giù a più non posso eh quel ponte lì, sì. E niente comunque hanno spezzato, hanno spezzato i due comuni, eh, eh. E che te voglio dire?
GF: E avevate dei parenti che vivevano nell’altro comune, delle persone che conoscevate?
GB: Eh sì, certo che avevamo delle persone si [unclear], capirai, un chilometro te conosci tutte, le banche, la farmacia, se volevi andare a tagliare i capelli dovevi andare dalla parte di là che di qua non c’è, eh certo che conoscevi, eh, hai capito?
GF: Quindi è stato complicato.
GB: Molto, molto, molto, Io me la ricordo la paura ecco, quella grande paura che dovevi proprio stare zitta e stare più rifugiata che potevi perché quando vedevano che camminava una donna con bambino erano guai eh, erano guai. Noi non ci faceva scendere più da sta collinetta ci ha fatto sta capanna con terrata giù per terra perché ha scavato poi tutta chiusa, tanto per noi famigliari che per le bestie che poteva salvare perché aveva i vitelli, aveva maiali, aveva le, tutte ste bestie qui loro le caricavano eh. Avevano i cani (?), caricavano tutto loro eh. Tedeschi caricavano tutto. Quando avevano, vedevano una cantinina, no? Come per esempio giù, na finestrina che buttavano giù, entravano dentro perché sapevano che c’erano i prosciutti, c’erano i salami hai capito? Erano delinquenti proprio i tedeschi, eh.
GF: E cosa pensava di chi vi stava bombardando? Cosa pensavate?
GB: No, lo parlava il papà che erano tedeschi, eh. Tedeschi, sono tedeschi poi si, dialetto che avevano, fare kaputte, fare kaputte, dice: ‘State attenti ragazze se loro dicono fare kaputte, fare kaputte, v’ammazzano, eh, state zitti, qua ammazzano, eh’. E avevano, sì, si sapeva che erano tedeschi, certo. E papà lo diceva.
GF: E dopo la liberazione quindi avete festeggiato, siete potuti tornare a casa vostra.
GB: Sì, dopo, tutti contadini, tutti sono beh, dopo è venuta la trebbiatura del grano, con le macchine hanno fatto grande festa a tutti, eh sì. Sono arrivati americani che hann salvato tutto eh. Sì.
GF: E i rifugi quindi li avete abbandonati.
GB: E il rifugio, niente, è rimasto lì, abbandonato perché che vuoi ie fai tutto de legno, tutto de coto, il bosco era del nostro, eh è rimasto lì, e dopo a poco a poco si è ripreso la legna [laughs] hai capito?
GF: E quindi dopo che è finita la guerra lei ha incominciato ad andare a scuola.
GB: A scuola, sì, dopo si parlava, le maestre, io non me la ricordo cosa avrebbero detto però la guerra è stata parlata per parecchio tempo, eh. Che se ringraziavano americani come avrè visto il padre eterno,come nasce il bambino adesso perché se no non so. [phone rings] Adesso risponderà lui eh. Hai capito?
GF: E quindi il sentimento più grande che provavate era la paura. Tantissima paura.
GB: La paura, la paura di morire, la paura che buttassero qualche mina, qualche bomba che ci, la paura di morire, e noi si doveva stare sempre zitti. Si giocava a carte zitti zitti, eh, quelle robe lì facevi perché [unclear] come cadeva la sera era buio. E che? Più di dormire non facevi, che potevi fare? Da bambini.
GF: E si ricorda se pregavate per caso?
GB: Anche pregare sì, molto. Eh, la mia mamma ci faceva pregare, che finisse presto sta brutalità, lei poverina aveva avuto anche quella brutta avventura di essere, oè, se loro non erano addormentati non so cosa gli facevano eh. Venivano violentate, venivano. Perché quel momento lì non c’erano pullman, non c’erano niente. Lei aveva una parente che era all’ospedale, quaranta chilometri, loro andavano a piedi sti quaranta chilometri per andare a trovare sta parente che era operata dall’ulcera, dall’appendice, e, e niente, l’hann prese, camminavano sulla strada, l’hann prese, l’hann caricate intal camion, caricate tal camion, l’hanno portate dal loro rifugio perché loro avevano i rifugi, eh, i tedeschi, capito? Avevano preso le case proprio e loro dalla piena notte che dormivano, che erano briachi, perché loro s’ambriacavano eh, bevevano da matti, dove andavano che trovavano il vino erano briachi. Allora loro pian pian piano sono riusciti a uscire, hanno visto il lumino, na casettina c’era il lumino, sono andati a bussare da sta casetta, son venuti fuori due vecchietti, l’hann fatte entrare, poi dopo la mattina, l’hann raccontato così, alla mattina hann preso e son tornate a casa. Sì, non sono andate più neanche a trovare quella là in ospedale. E’ na cosa che lei l’ha vissuta sulla sua pelle, eh? Eh, lo diceva sempre: ‘State zitti, state zitti, che vi ammazzano’ eh, tutte ste parole.
GF: E voi non vi eravate accorti che erano state rapite?
GB: Eh no, perché erano partite per l’ospedale, dormivano da qualche parte là in ospedale e no, dopo quando è tornata, che è tornata il giorno dopo, ha detto che neanche era andata. Io, ricordato da lei eh sempre perché quel momento lì io on me la ricordo proprio. Ricorda lei che è stata una esperienza proprio bruttissima, sì, sì. [pauses] Eh, loro s’ambriacavano, portavano, briachi com’erano non gli hanno fatto niente dopo quando si svegliavano era il guaio ma loro pian pian piano sono uscite, sono riuscite a scappare che non avevano chiuso, hann visto sto lumino di notte, insomma, e bella che erano ancora al rifugio de loro, hai capito? Gli è andata bene, gli è andata benone, ha raccontato, diceva, io posso ringraziare proprio, signore perché m’è andata bene, mhm mhm mhm.
GF: E adesso che sono passati tanti anni, cosa pensa delle persone che vi bombardavano?
GB: Eh, un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, quando si parla della Germania, chi è che ha sofferto così non è tanta bella, eh, no. No, no. Un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, perché l’Italia l’hanno spacciata fuori quel momento lì eh, non so perché la volevano tanta con l’Italia. I vecchi lo sanno però, eh, i vecchi vecchi lo sanno perché c’era sta grande cosa per il Duce per che cosa, eh? Eh, per forza. Ma io non ti posso raccontare perché non la so questa la storia perché ce la volevano tante l’italiani, non la so. Hai capito? Così.
GB: E si ricorda se sono arrivati dei partigiani lì dove abitavate voi, si ricorda di averli visti?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, i partigiani sì, i partigiani erano dalla nostra parte eh, cavoli! Loro difendevano gli italiani, ste matti, i partigiani sì, eh. Ma pochi, pochi partigiani, più loro, più i tedeschi, e americani, dopo quando sono arrivati americani hanno pulito l’Italia proprio, mhm mhm.
GF: E lei li ha visti gli americani o non se la ricorda?
GB: Io non me lo ricordo sai, non me la ricordo, i tedeschi me la ricordo bene. I tedeschi me la ricordo bene perché passavano da quelle, loro avevano giù le taverne, le cantine, no, quelle robe, loro li facevano vedere, io non c’ho niente, non c’ho niente, ma loro da fuori vedevano io ti sparo, apri per andare giù perché [unclear] mio papà quante volte gliel’hann puntato il fucile, io ti sparo, giù cosa c’hai? Quello che [unclear] gli portavano via tutto, eh.
GF: Volevano il cibo.
GB: Eh il cibo volevano, prosciutto, vino, salami, polli se avevi polli, tutto, tutto, vitelli, maiali, tutto caricavano perché c’erano quelli che andavano per le case e c’era quello coi cani, no? Caricavano tutto, tutto caricavano.
GF: E voi avevate degli animali anche?
GB: E anche gli animali perché lui, maiali, tutte delle robe più, anche i vitelli giovani che allora costavano. Gli aveva fatto la capanna al bosco eh, perché gli caricano un vitello, gli caricano tutta la loro interesse de un anno eh, hai capito? E così, comunque l’hanno vissuta male sti vecchietti poeretti, mhm mhm.
GF: Facevate fatica a trovare da mangiare in quel periodo?
GB: E da c’era anche la tessera, davano la tessera, capisci? C’era la tessera e coi tanti figli c’era [unclear] io adesso non ti so spiegare questo, c’era la tessera, tanta roba, anche il sale era con la tessera e il latte avevano le capre tutto il più se mangiava ste bestie che erano in casa, le custodiva, ammazzavano anche i maiali eh? Perché che mangiavi? [laughs] In mancanza de altro mazzavano quello che avevano lì. Al posto de farlo portar via dai tedeschi. Eh sì.
GF: E, prima parlavamo del ponte. Il ponte poi dopo la guerra l’hanno ricostruito?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, sì. Sì, io l’ho visto costruito bene, sì, sì, sì. Sì, i due, i due comuni si sono messi d’accordo, l’hann fatto il ponte, sì. No, no, hann fatto tutto come era prima, sì.
GF: E la sua famiglia dopo la guerra ha ricominciato a fare i contadini.
GB: Fare i contadini, a fare il tabacco, che allora facevano il tabacco, facevano il grano, allora fare i contadini e mio fratello fino a che poteva ha giù na campagna che noi se riuscisse, perché lui non ha figli, è tutta in mano nostra. Si deve pagare l’ICI, si deve pagare per la terra, ha là na campagna che vale, vale soldi, molti soldi vale, e lui l’ha lavorata tanta, c’ha preso miliardi col tabacco che allora facevano il tabacco, funzionava l’agricoltura del tabacco, poi il grano, granturco, tutto il frumentone no? Eh, hanno fatto soldi, hanno una casa che è una villa lui, na villa, de tre piani, na villa, con tutta, tutta fatta grande, tutta recintata, e l’ha chiusa, pensa, e l’ha chiusa. Non sappiamo da chi darla, non sappiamo perché di case ce ne son tante abbandonate perché dopo è venuta la crisi, eh, come è stato, come non è stato, il nonno è corso dove c’era il lavoro, no? E allora, ste case sono abbandonate si può dire.
GF: E oltre ai tedeschi, si ricorda anche se vedevate dei fascisti?
GB: Io non me la ricordo questi, no, no, non me la ricordo. Da quei paesini lì non me la ricordo ma può darsi a Roma, e quelle robe lì c’erano sì i fascisti, c’erano sì, c’erano sì. Ma io non me la ricordo che parlavano di fascisti.
GF: Bene. Io la ringrazio tantissimo per la sua testimonianza bellissima.
GB: Ma che me ringrazi? Che t’ho detto quello che ho potuto.
GF: Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro?
GB: Che devo andà aggiungere? Che io sò, aggiungere, che io son partita da Lisciano Niccone il 31 gennaio del , no del duemila, 1960.
GF: E si è trasferita?
GB: E sono venuta in Lombardia. E mi sono formata la mia famiglia in Lombardia, con un figlio medico e tre nipoti [laughs]. Adesso questo l’ha registrato [laughs]?
GF: Grazie mille.
GB: [laughs] Ecco basta.
GF: Adesso stoppo.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Giuliana Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
Giuliana Birelli remembers growing up in a family of farmers in Tuscany, at a juncture in which German soldiers raided houses searching for food and harassing women. She tells various episodes: partisans actions, time spent in a makeshift shelter her father had built in a nearby wood, the fear of being hit, bombs dropped in a field during the harvest and the arrival of American soldiers. Recalls how her mother and a friend were captured by drunken German soldiers and how they managed to escape. She recollects farmers cheering at the end of the war.
Creator
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Greta Fedele
Date
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2017-12-23
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Peter Schulze
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00:28:17 audio recording
Language
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ita
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ABirelliG171223
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Arezzo
Italy--Perugia
Italy
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/PPirovanoG1701.1.jpg
f08cd474f8b3abb5a6bba59fc5a0eb22
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/APirovanoG171113.2.mp3
44fd6d3723b29056871c2fb2c80da476
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Pirovano, Giuseppe
G Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2017-11-13
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Pirovano, G
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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ZG: Prova? Funziona? Sì. Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistato è Giuseppe Pirovano. Nella stanza è presente, in qualità dell’assistente di Zeno, Simone Biffi dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervista ha luogo in Via Gian Rinaldo Carli al numero 34 a Milano il giorno 12 Novembre 2017. Ok, possiamo iniziare. Allora inizio con delle domande di riscaldamento. Qual è il ricordo più lontano che ha, più remoto di tutti?
GP: Diciamo, ma qualche ricordo già prima della guerra. Quindi io sono del ’31 per cui ho dei ricordi verso gli anni ’39-’40. Quegli anni lì ricordo benissimo. L’aspetto che mi è rimasto in testa è la situazione qui di Affori ma sicuramente rispecchia la situazione generale dove il Fascismo teneva in iscacco se possiamo dire, la popolazione. Esempio. Allora c’eran solo le osterie e mio padre andava all’osteria qualche volta, non sempre. Era anche lui uno che gli piaceva bere il solito bicchiere di vino coi compagni, con gli amici, e ogni tanto mi portava, anzi ero io che gli correvo dietro, avevo otto, nove anni quindi, dieci anni. E mi ricordo la situazione, mi è rimasto impresso alcune cose. Per esempio, mi ricordo che sulle pareti dell’osteria dove c’era il, dove si batteva, dove batteva la spalla della sedia c’eran tutte le parole d’ordine: ‘Qui non si parla di politica’, ‘Viva il Duce’ e tutte queste parole d’ordine che potete immaginare quali erano. Ma questo è il meno. Ricordo benissimo che c’erano due, due esseri, due signori che giravano il rione vestiti proprio con la tuta da fascista, camicia nera, pantaloni, in bicicletta, sempre loro due, uno si chiamava Marinverni, l’altro Cavallini, e con la pistola sempre addosso. Facevano il giro delle osterie e ogni, alzavano la voce, la gente stava in silenzio, loro facevano il cosidetto bauscia, disevano a Milan, e quindi in alcuni casi hanno provato anche a sparare in alto, tanto per intimorire la gente. Questi erano proprio i manovali, me li ricordo bene, mi sono rimasti in mente anche i nomi. Poi naturalmente c’erano quelli vestiti bene, quelli che erano alla sede del Fascio qui ad Affori e che loro si facevano solo vedere nei luoghi delle parate quando c’era qualche manifestazione nel rione. Ecco questo, sono i ricordi più lontani, di prima della guerra.
ZG: Ma lei si ricorda perché questa camicie nere intimorivano? Quali erano le motivazioni? C’erano delle cause scatenanti?
GP: Non saprei dire la motivazione. Sicuramente evitavano, volevano evitare, diciamo, che qualcuno si comportasse da antifascista, questo per loro era una cosa che non poteva esistere, per cui controllavano, vedevano se c’era qualcuno di questo tipo. Naturalmente c’erano, ma però non posso dire che alloro lo sapevo, li avevo conosciuti nel, nel dopoguerra chiaramente, negli anni ’45-’46, c’erano gli antifascisti e c’erano ma non si muovevano, non si. Qualcuno di questi venivano anche portati in prigione quando c’era le visite dei gerarchi fascisti, di Mussolini in particolare qualche volta che era arrivato a Milano, però loro non li conoscevo, ma penso che lo scopo principale era quello di tenere sotto controllo la situazione insomma.
ZG: Senta, che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
GP: Mio padre era un operaio, lavorava alla Ceretti e Tanfani, una ditta molto importante. Era una ditta ausiliaria si diceva allora, cioè ausiliaria nel senso che producevano cose che servivano per la guerra e quindi. Non le armi ma le strutture sono le gru, gli impianti funiviari, gli impianti che potevano servire per l’esercito, quindi lavorava in uno di quei. Mia madre era casalinga. Eravamo tre fratelli, due fratelli e una sorella.
ZG: Si ricorda un po’ della vita prima della guerra, in famiglia, a casa?
GP: Mah, prima della guerra ricordo che mio padre lavorava dieci ore al giorno e comunque, riusciva comunque a mantenere la famiglia ecco. Mia madre non ha mai lavorato da sposata e non saprei dire precisamente perché. L’età era poca e quindi eravamo, non eravamo in grado di capire per bene le cose. Però posso dire che riuscivamo a vivere, naturalmente con sacrifici perché il mangiare era quello che era, non è che eravamo. E ricordo in particolare che i giorni di Natale, mentre alcuni bambini avevano la fortuna di avere una famiglia un po’ benestante, meglio di noi, noi non avevamo niente insomma, c’erano i soliti pacchetto di mandarino con la noce con quelle poche cose di frutta. Ecco, quello che ricordo è un po’ questo. Facevamo fatica, vivevamo con fatica, ma vivevamo.
ZG: Lei e i suoi fratelli giocavate?
GP: Sì, sì, giocavamo, giocavamo. Mi ricordo che io ero il maggiore facevo, costruivo i monopattini, andavo da, c’era uno stracciaio vicino a casa dove abitavamo, noi abitavamo qui in, qui vicino insomma, un centinaio di metri. E andavo a comperare, ce li regalava praticamente, soldi noi non ne avevamo, le ruote a sfere che raccogliendo i rottami che questo signore c’era dentro anche queste cose qui, noi lo sapevamo e andavamo là e facevo il carrello, il carrellotto con il legno, la, col manubrio, bulloni per fare da perno, la ruota a sfera più grossa che riuscivamo a trovare e facevamo il carrellotto che ci spingevamo in giro oppure il monopattino, con due ruote a scorta. Per dire uno dei giochi, poi giochevamo tante altre cose siam bambini, giocavamo, giocavamo, questo.
ZG: Ehm, lei si ricorda qualche altro gioco in particolare?
GP: Giocavamo, ci allora, ci mettevamo carponi uno dietro l’altro e saltavamo sulla schiena. Chi saltava più, due persone, tre persone. Giocavamo alla, noi lo chiamavamo il Pirlo, pezzo di legno così che mettevamo per terra, picchiavamo sulla punta e il legno andava lontano, quindi chi andava più lontano vinceva. E così insomma questi più o meno erano i giochi che facevamo.
ZG: Senta, si ricorda di quando è scoppiata la guerra?
GP: Sì. Scoppiata la guerra, mi ricordo vagamente del discorso di Mussolini, stranamente. Però stranamente era, tutte le radio parlavano di questo. E mi ricordo vagamente, vagamente col senno di poi, l’ho sentito attraverso i tele, i giornali eccetera ma allora ricordo vagamente per dire la verità. Non è che potessi capire il significato, perché insomma io avevo, nel ’40, 10 giugno del ’40 avevo nove anni, capite che un ragazzo non, però ricordo ma poi. Diciamo quello che posso dire è come ho vissuto io la guerra, ecco questo.
ZG: Ecco sì, voglio fare giusto una domanda prima che era, gli adulti gli parlarono della guerra? I suoi genitori o famigliari a lei vicini, amici dei genitori?
GP: Beh, mio padre un po’, mio padre, mio padre parlava un po’ qualche volta però non si sbottonava. Mio padre non era un politico ma era un antifascista, questo sicuramente, questo, lo posso testimoniare. Politico no perché poi anche lui era un operaio nel senso che non aveva, scuole, sì, fatto le elementari ma non aveva cultura politica. Ma era un antifascista e ogni tanto qualche cosa me lo [sic] diceva. Era un tipo che ogni tanto mi ricordo che prendeva in giro qualche fascista della prima ora, con dell’ironia non con della, diciamo discussioni politiche, si guardava bene perché non avrebbe potuto. Però mi ricordo che c’era uno che aveva fatto la Marcia su Roma, abitava vicino a noi e mai poi era un uomo anziano, non è che fosse, non era un uomo cattivo ma era un fascista. Mi ricordo, eravamo forse nel ’41 quando, quando venivamo, eravamo in Africa ed eravamo sconfitti e allora mi ricordo precisamente, una volta visto fuori in strada e gli diceva: ‘Ohè, Scaiett’, si chiamava Scaietti, ‘Scaiett, andem ben, eh!’. Faceva così, il segno della vanga. Vangava per dire che andavamo indietro. Lo prendeva in giro, per dire. Era comunque un tipo abbastanza, le conosceva le cose, e qualche volta si azzardava anche con gli amici a parlare, ma molto, molto poco, non è che era un antifascista combattente, no, non lo era. E naturalmente poi ho saputo che in fabbrica c’era l’organizzazione clandestina ma questo l’ho saputo dopo e quindi.
ZG: Dopo torneremo anche su questo. Quindi lei non si ricorda nulla in particolare proprio di come suo padre invece parlava a lei della guerra e del fascismo?
GP: No, ma, no, soltanto qualche volta, quello che succedeva, lo diceva in casa ecco. Ma no, devo dire di no. Per dire la verità.
ZG: Eh per caso avevate parenti al fronte?
GP: Al fronte c’erano i miei cugini, i miei cugini sì. Figli della sorella di mio padre e sono, due son tornati tutti e due, sì e altri cugini, altri cugini non me ne ricordo, che erano al fronte.
ZG: Ok. Senta invece, si ricorda dei bombardamenti?
GP: Eh beh certo. Eh lì vorrei parlare un po’. Allora partiamo dal primo bombardamento avvenuto a Milano il 24 Ottobre del ’42, primo bombardamento a Milano. Premetto che a Milano era già stato fatto un bombardamento nel ’40 appena scoppiata la guerra, me lo ricordo bene perché mio padre con la bicicletta, noi abitavamo ad Affori, abitiamo tutt’ora ad Affori, siamo andati a vedere i bombardamenti, per dire incoscienti e incapaci di giudicare, penso che era normale. Allora con la bicicletta, io con la mia bicicletta, mio fratello con la sua biciclettina siamo andati in Via Thaon di Revel, sapete dov’è? Piazzale Maciachini, avanti, lì c’è la Chiesa della Fontana. Il bombardamento è avvenuto con qualche bomba incendiaria che ha toccato la chiesa e la casa di fronte. Siamo andati subito quando l’abbiamo saputo, mio padre c’ha portato, e abbiamo visto di cosa si trattava. Proprio due spezzoni erano apparecchi, erano i francesi, perché noi abbiamo dichiarato guerra ai francesi e quindi quelli si sono vendicati subito ma ridicolmente insomma. Era un bombardamento ridicolo eh. Incendiarie hanno rotto una soffitta, un pezzo di, vabbè, comunque, questo è [unclear], però non è più stato fatto nessun bombardamento. Il primo a Milano è avvenuto il 24 Ottobre ’42. Io ero in quel momento nel cortile di casa mia, in una stanzetta del cortile con cinque, sei amici ragazzi, sentiamo sto casino, sto bombard, sto rumore, sparare e il rumore degli aerei. Usciamo e siamo rimasti lì, era le cinque della sera, quindi iniziava il tramonto. Si vedevano tutti i traccianti della antiaerea, qui nella, c’era l’antiaerea piazzata, là nella Cava Lucchini, vicino proprio a noi, le mitragliatrici e si vedevano gli apparecchi che passavano, che urlavano, erano gli aerei, apparecchi inglesi naturalmente perché i primi bombardamenti sono stati fatti dagli inglesi ’42-’43. Gli americani non c’erano ancora e quindi, vedevamo chiaramente mollare le bombe, magari appena dopo perché appena dopo magari alla Bovisa sugli scali ferroviari eccetera nei dintorni. Noi ad Affori non siamo stati colpiti. E quindi questo è stato il primo bombardamento che ho visto coi miei occhi gli apparecchi che mollavano le bombe. Ricordo il rumore degli apparecchi che poi dopo li ho risentiti in qualche documentario ma li ricordo bene. Allora il giorno seguente, uno o due giorni, mio padre ha caricato la famiglia, ci ha portati fuori Milano, sfollati diciamo, eravamo i primi sfollati, perché poi Milano ha avuto molti sfollati proprio a causa dei bombardamenti. Allora il discorso è questo, noi con la famiglia eravamo sfollati in provincia di Brescia, in campagna, e lui lavorava tutti i giorni da solo a casa, ecco. Veniva tutte le domeniche, quasi tutti i sabati e la domenica a trovarci, prendeva il treno, veniva a trovarci. Però era il ’42, la guerra è finita nel ’45, e io saltuariamente venivo a casa con lui, ’43, ’44 quindi in permanenza non ero a Milano però venivo a casa con lui ogni tanto. E quando ero a casa non sono riuscito a dormire una notte perché c’eran sempre i bombardamenti, c’eran sempre gli allarmi. Su casa nostra non abbiamo avuto i bombardamenti ma le case circostanti, i rioni, Milano insomma è stata distrutta, lo sapete meglio di me. Quindi io ho vissuto nei rifugi qualche, alla notte ed era un dramma veramente: il terrore, la paura. Chi andava nei rifugi era, in genere le donne, ma tutti insomma, mio padre nei rifugi non c’è mai andato perché lui diceva: ‘Mi la fin del rat la fu no!’, la fine del topo non la voglio fare. E allora, quando io ero qui qualche volta mi è capitato di andare nei rifugi perché se era di giorno, o comunque un orario che mio padre era a lavorare e io ero solo, e quindi andavo nei rifugi non potevo, ma quando c’era mio padre lui mi prendeva come al primo allarme mi metteva sulla canna della bicicletta e correvamo fuori perché qui ad Affori adesso è costruito molto ma allora era campagna perché era l’ultimo rione della città e quindi avevamo molta campagna e mi portava nei fossi, nella campagna per evitare i bombardamenti. Ma diciamo che ho vissuto i bombardamenti nei rifugi quando venivano qui. E mio padre, dicevo, veniva ogni tanto, ogni tanto, ogni settimana, al massimo ogni quindici giorni veniva a trovarci. Il giorno del 10 settembre ’44 era un giorno che tornava a Milano della visita che aveva fatto a noi e quando tornava a Milano il treno arrivava generalmente dopo le dieci di sera, c’era il coprifuoco alle dieci di sera, quindi cosa succedeva? Lui dormiva alla stazione centrale, al mattino alle sei prendeva la bicicletta e andava a Bovisa a lavorare, Bovisa è qui vicino. La sera del 10 settembre il treno è, è arrivato in orario, ha fatto in tempo a prendere la bicicletta e andare a casa. È andato a casa, diciamo è salito in casa per disfare la valigia, le bombe cadevano. Nel cortile distrutta la casa. Cosa succedeva? Le bombe cadevano e quindi lui è sceso perché non poteva stare lì perché andavano giù, sentiva le case che andavano giù e anche la nostra dove abitavamo cominciava a crollare. Allora molta gente nel, che scendeva nel cortile perché era un gruppo di case, allora molta gente andava nel rifugio ma il rifugio era la solita cantina che costruivano dove si metteva il vino, si metteva, quindi non era un rifugio, era una cantina. E quindi mio padre faceva la parte delle persone che scappavano, oltretutto non era in grado di contenere tutte le persone, molta gente scappava. Mio padre è scappato con un gruppo di dieci persone. Fatto venti metri, è arrivato a un bivio, scappavano, cercavano di andare in un rifugio più sicuro, loro pensavano. Ha fatto venti metri, erano un gruppo di dodici persone, tredici persone, una bomba è caduta nel centro. Quindi strage completa. Mio padre è rimasto sotto i bombardamenti in quell’occasione lì. E, scusate,
ZG: Se vuole interrompiamo.
GP: [starts crying] cosa succede, c’erano i miei amici, un ragazzo col collo tagliato, mio padre combinazione non aveva niente ma lo spostamento d’aria gli ha spaccato il cuore. E però una parte di persone si è fermato nell’androne, nell’androne della casa si sono salvati, in cantina si sono salvati e quelli che sono usciti sono morti tutti. Tenete conto che la mia casa, la casa dove abitavo, era ai, dietro la chiesa, in linea d’aria trenta, quaranta metri, perché proprio era sull’angolo del giardino del parroco. A sinistra c’era la scuola elementare dove io ho frequentato la prima, la seconda e la terza. Alla mia destra, quella via, c’era l’asilo infantile con cinque suore. Ebbene, hanno distrutto l’asilo, distrutto la scuola, distrutta metà la casa dove abitavo. Hanno danneggiato la chiesa, per dire quel gruppo di queste case. Poi più avanti hanno distrutto dei caseggiati completi, la Cur di Restei, la chiamavamo e tante altre cose lì in giro ma poi anche tanti altri. Quindi questo è il 10 settembre ’44. Mio padre è morto e noi siamo rimasti là in campagna dove mia madre è stata assunta, in combinazione c’era una ditta di tabacchi, raccoglievano il tabacco, lavoravano il tabacco, mia madre è stata assunta lì e siamo riusciti per tirare avanti con lo stipendio di mia madre. Quindi siamo stati lì fin dopo, fino il ’45 e mi ricordo l’ultimo episodio che voglio dire. Il 25 aprile del ’45, ero ancora lì naturalmente, e io seguivo un po’ gli ultimi avvenimenti, ormai avevo quattordici anni capivo un po’ di più insomma. E son corso sul, sono andato sulla strada principale Asola-Brescia perché in quei momenti lì i tedeschi cominciavano a scappare. Ora sono corso là con i miei amici grandi, giovanotti che ricordo si preparavano già qualche giorno prima, armeggiare, trovavano qualche arma, qualche cosa del genere. Sono andato lì per trovarli, insomma io volevo esserci. Sono arrivato là, non ho trovato nessuno in quel momento lì al mattino presto. Però mi sono trovato di fronte un gruppo di tedeschi, quindici, circa quindici tedeschi, potevano essere quattordici o sedici, ma era più o meno un gruppo così, un gruppo di tedeschi in bicicletta armati di tutto punto, bombe a mano e mitra, in bicicletta con sacche pesanti. E ormai ero lì, non sapevo più cosa fare e ho detto: ‘Ma sono un ragazzo, forse non mi dicono niente’. Invece il capo lì: ‘Komma her, komma her’, mi ha messo in mezzo per attraversare il paese. L’intenzione era quella naturalmente di avere l’ostaggio in centro in modo che, avevano paura dei partigiani per cui se c’era qualcuno e attraversiam, per attarversare il paese. Naturalmente io il paese lo conoscevo come le mie tasche, e poi avevo quattordici anni quindi, e intanto che andavamo non so se per incoscienza o non sentivo paura, non è che avessi paura, stavo pensando come facevo a scappare. E infatti prima di uscire dal paese conoscevo bene come fare avevo visto, avevo pensato e quindi con un salto sono uscito dai ranghi. Immaginatevi questa gente qui, stanca, affamata, carica come era, non mi ha neanche visto insomma. Sono scappato e quelli se ne sono andati. Sono stati fermati dai partigiani in paese dopo. Io sono tornato là e ho trovato finalmente i ragazzi che si sono messi là, mi hanno messo assieme a uno con la mitragliatrice, io dovevo metterci su le cartuccie, le scatole e comunque eravamo lì a fermare i tedeschi. Diciamo che la giornata è passata così. Lì fermavano i tedeschi, li mettevano nella scuola poi dopo sarebbero stati mandati non lo so e, eh glielo ripeto ero là. E se venivano le macchine era più pericoloso dicevano se veniva qualche macchina. Allora c’era un incrocio rispetto alla provinciale, veniva una macchina dalla provincia di, era da Castel Goffredo provincia di Mantova, e io ero su quella strada lì dietro l’angolo con questo qui. Sento la macchina, sentiamo la macchina, guardo e tra le fronde della siepe avanti centocinquanta metri vedo un elmetto che non è tedesco quello non è un tedesco, non sono tedeschi allora metto la mano sulla mitragliatrice prima che quello mi, [unclear] tedesco, e arriva la camionetta degli americani. Era il primo americano che vedevo e così abbiamo visto sta camionetta, è arrivato lì, ha fatto quattro chiacchiere, sai quei classici, quattro persone, due di dietro sdraiati con le, che poi s’è visto nei giornali che c’hanno fatto vedere ma li era, mi ricordo classico, quattro parole che noi non capivamo niente e con la cicca americana e se ne sono andati subito. Ecco, questa è la mia giornata del 25 aprile ‘45. E poi naturalmente c’è tutta una storia del dopoguerra molto importante ma che non c’entra con.
ZG: Senta, io le volevo fare qualche domanda per tornare un attimo su qualche passaggio. La prima era, nel ’42 lei ha detto che c’è stato il bombardamento, quello degli inglesi.
GP: Sì.
ZG: Il primo che ha assistito. Ha detto che aveva sentito le bombe ma non ha parlato della sirena antiaerea. In quell’occasione lì, era suonato o non era suonato?
GP: No, assolutamente no. Le ripeto, noi siamo usciti perché abbiamo sentito rumore ma il, l’allarme aereo non era suonato. Nel modo più assoluto. Poi, voglio dire, l’allarme aereo raramente suonava. Non c’era, non c’era organizzazione. Gli unici un po’ organizzati erano la cosidetta UNPA, erano dei civili incaricati in ogni caseggiato per essere, diciamo era come un, come si dice, quelli che abbiamo adesso, la protezione civile ecco, faceva un po’ di queste cose qui. Allora c’era quello del caseggiato più anziano, più bravo, faceva questo lavoro qui. Tutta roba diciamo, organizzata e no, insomma. Allora se c’era qualcuno di buona volontà, se sentiva l’aereo, suonava, perché c’era la tromba, la sirena che faceva a mano, faceva andare a mano. Ma raramente suonava prima dei bombardamenti. Sì, il primo bombardamento assolutamente non suonava. Poi in seguito, mi dicevano i miei amici, perché ci sono quelli che erano qui tutti i giorni, qualche volta suonava ma di rado. In genere arrivavano gli apparecchi e bombardavano. Mio padre, quella volta lì lo stesso, arrivato gli apparecchi, bombardavano e son scappati, ma. Allarme niente, non c’era organizzazione!
ZG: Il rifugio in cui lei scappava di solito, era la cantina di casa sua?
GP: Sì, sono andato anche in altri rifugi. Per esempio, c’era un rifugio fatto, sempre qui, in un posto dove c’era un prato fra le case, era un rifugio che avevano fatto, scavato due metri, se dico due metri potevano essere due e cinquanta, forse anche tre, non lo so, no si passava appena appena, due metri, coperto da tavole, dico tavole. Sopra le tavole la terra che avevano scavato l’han messa su sopra, quindi rifugio per modo di dire. Andava bene se c’era qualche scheggia in giro perché bombardavano ma era una cosa inutile, assolutamente, non era rifugio. E per il resto erano cantine. Non c’erano rifugi, in zona parlo eh, perché poi in altri posti avevano fatto anche dei rifugi. Ma a Affori assolutamente non ce n’erano.
ZG: Come passava il tempo nel rifugio, se lo ricorda?
GP: Seduti, c’erano le donnine che pregavano, c’erano i bambini che piangevano, e io mi ricordo che, ero pieno di paura e quando ero in rifugio, ero solo naturalmente, mio padre non c’era. Ero, tremavo e pieno di paura, poi sa in quell’ambiente lì, donne che gridano, che urlano, i bambini che urlano, e così, è una tragedia insomma. Non era una cosa molto bella.
ZG: Senta, oltre alle preghiere, ogni tanto magari avevate altri metodi per passare il tempo, tipo qualcuno cantava magari o?
GP: No, no, no, io non ricordo. Beh la preghiera dico perché qualcuna che c’era, che faceva la preghiera, non è che, che fosse collettivo il fatto. Qualcuna si metteva a pregare, le donne anziane, me lo ricordo ma, no, anche perché nel rifugio non è che ci stavamo tanto. Cioè i bombardamenti potevano durare mezz’ora, l’allarme diciamo poteva durare mezz’ora, al massimo un’ora ma generalmente finiva molto prima insomma ecco. Che gli apparecchi non potevano star su le ore, bombardavano e se ne andavano. Magari si ripeteva ma non molto a lungo. Nei rifugi stavamo poco tempo, mezz’ora.
ZG: E senta invece dov’è che è sfollato, quando suo padre l’ha portato via?
GP: Sul confine fra Brescia e Mantova, in campagna, se posso [unclear] anche il paese Acquafredda si chiama, Acquafredda, c’è ancora eh!
ZG: E come mai vi ha portato là esattamente?
GP: Perché c’erano i genitori di mia madre, con un fratello di mia madre. E quindi abitavamo tutti assieme nella casa dove abitavano questi. Il, loro non erano contadini, mio nonno era una falegname e mio zio faceva l’operatore delle macchine, le trebbiatrici, le macchine che usavano per la terra, le aggiustava, le, insomma faceva quel lavoro lì.
ZG: E da quelle parti bombardamenti non ce ne sono mai stati?
GP: No, assolutamente, in campagna no, abbiamo vissuto bene.
ZG: Perché ogni tanto tornava a Milano con suo padre?
GP: Eh, perché ogni tanto, io, papà, vengo anche io a Milano oppure era lui ma non è che son tornato, forse due o tre volte a, tre volte a Milano. Però, ragazzi! Erano tragedie tutte le volte. Era una tragedia perché era sempre in giro. Mi son trovato in quel rifugio lì che le dicevo, mi son trovato scalzo. Quindi era, ’43 forse, o primavera ’44, insomma era terrore, scappavamo, eran momenti brutti insomma, non, una cosa che, da non augurarsi guardi.
ZG: Senta invece, un’altra cosa che volevo chiedere era, con la scuola, lei quando ha sfollato per la prima volta, stava già frequentando la scuola media?
GP: No, allora, io ho frequentato la scuola che hanno abbattuto lì quando hanno bombardato mio padre, è morto mio padre, ho fatto prima, seconda e terza, la quarta sono andato a farla nelle scuole nuove, sempre qui ad Affori. Allora la quarta, io sono stato bocciato, sono stato bocciato perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione. La mia maestra, maestra Giacchero, era una fascista di quelle terribili, clerico-fascista, e io non ho risposto a domande di religione perché avevo fatto, avevo tranciato i miei rapporti con la chiesa quando mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto. Mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto, parliamo forse nove, dieci anni, allora c’erano chierichetti così piccoli e mi ricordo che a un battesimo un signore ha tirato fuori i soldi, ha dato i soldi al prete, ha detto: ‘Questi qui sono i suoi, questi qui sono per il batte, e questi qui per i chierichetti’. Il prete ha messo in tasca i soldi e non ha dato niente, né a me né a nessun altro, ha tenuto tutti i soldi dei chierichetti. Da quel giorno lì, per me, sono andato a casa ho detto: ‘Mamma, io in chiesa non ci vado più’, ‘Perché?’ ‘Perché mi ha rubato i soldi’ mi ricordo. [unclear] ‘Ma no, ma’, basta, e io ho chiuso. Quindi per me la chiesa non esiste, non esiste da quel giorno là insomma. Poi tutto va bene, tutto [unclear], per me non è un problema, è un problema [unclear], ma. Quindi sono stato bocciato in quarta, ho rifatto la quarta qui e [mobile phone rings] scusatemi.
ZG: Interrompo, non si preoccupi.
PG: Sì?
ZG: Allora, dopo la pausa riprendiamo l’intervista.
PG: Ecco, ehm, quindi ho rifatto la quarta. Il mio maestro era un centurione, un ex-centurione della milizia. Allora e io ero il caposquadra per dire che sono stato bocciato non perché ero un asino, anche se non ero una gran scienza per dire ma io sapevo le mie cose.Sono bocciato proprio perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione e il mio maestro dopo qualche giorno mi ha fatto caposquadra. Era un centurione della milizia e lui voleva avere una squadra organizzatissima. Aveva fatto sette persone, sette ragazzi capisquadra, io ero caposquadra ma ne aveva fatte altri sei che ognuno aveva dato un compito ma soprattutto in palestra ci portava. Eravamo organizzati in un modo eccellente. Io avevo la mia squadra che comandavo a bacchetta: ‘Avanti marsch, destra, sinist, obliqua sinist’. Ero bravo, era il maestro che mi aveva insegnato. E quell’anno lì, doveva essere il ’41 o il ’42, ’41 sicuro o fine ’40, poi facciamo i conti e magari, sì ’42, ’41, ’42 sono andato via, e abbiamo fatto un raduno, hanno fatto un raduno all’arena di Milano di quattrocento classi elementari, la quarta e la quinta, per fare gli esercizi ginnici. Far vedere che erano i giovani, i Balilla che, come eran bravi i Balilla eccetera. E io ho portato la mia classe, siamo stati bravi, eravamo sicuramente fra i primi perché i nostri ci tenevano. Poi per c’han fatto uscire dall’arena. Uscendo dall’arena c’erano dei tavoloni, son stati cinque o sei tavoloni, non lo so perché eravamo in tanti. Ogni tavolone c’era un gerarca dietro lì, un fascistone e io ero il caposquadra, dovevo andare a rispondere, a rispondere alle domande che queste persone mi facevano. Sono arrivato là con la mia squadra: ’Avanti marsch, destra, sinistra, tac!’ ‘Senti’, mi dice, ‘chi ha dichiarato guerra? L’Italia all’Inghilterra o l’Inghilterra alla Germania?’. Sono rimasto un po’. Non lo sapevo, non lo sapevo anche se, che magari era stato detto però non quel momento, non lo sapevo. Però pensavo ragazzi la guerra è una cosa brutta, non siamo noi italiani che la vogliamo, nella mia mente, e ho detto, no è stata l’Inghilterra. ‘Bravo asino! Vai via con la tua classe!’. Questo per dire [laughs] come eravamo in quei tempi là. E poi naturalmente io ho passato la quarta, sono andato in quinta, nel ’42 già avevo perso un anno, nel ’42 a settembre, a ottobre siamo scappati. Perciò ho ripreso la quinta là in campagna, ho fatto la quinta là. Dopodiché là non c’erano più le scuole. Per fare la, per andare a scuola bisognava fare tredici chilometri fino a, un paese importante, paese grosso, ma allora come facevo? In casa c’era una sola bicicletta, a parte il fatto che fare tredici chilometri in bicicletta, col Pippo che ogni tanto sparava addirittura sui cavalli e carretti che c’erano sulla strada, hai mai sentito, avete sentito parlare del Pippo? Ma poi c’era una bicicletta, l’usava mio zio per andare a lavorare. Quindi io, finita la quarta, la quinta elementare, non ho più fatto la scuola. Anzi, devo dire che, allora per andare alle scuole medie bisognava fare, come si, gli esami di stato. E sono riuscito a fare gli esami di stato con la mia maestra - che voleva che li facessi - e con altre sei ragazze, la figlia del sindaco, del podestà, allora del podestà, la figlia del suo secondo era il caseario, aveva il caseificio, la figlia del fabbro e altre tre ragazze dei tre più grossi fittavoli del paese. Allora io ero quello che aveva, che mi vestivo con i pantaloni neri di tela stracciati con le pezze sul sedere e loro erano le figlie, erano le sei ragazze dei ricchi del paese. Allora sono riuscito ad andare, a fare gli esami di stato in quel paese e, non mi viene in mente va bene il paese, con cavallo e carrozza, cavallo e la carrozza con queste ragazze. Siamo, eravamo bene istruiti, siam passati tutti e però io non ho più potuto far scuola. Questo è quanto, questa è la mia scuola che ho fatto. Naturalmente poi ho avuto nel dopoguerra la fortuna di fare altro tipo di scuola e via ma così, scuola era questa, la mia scuola.
ZG: Senta, a proposito della maestra che diceva, quella qua a Milano. Allora innanzitutto prima un’altra domanda: la chiesa in cui lei faceva il chierichetto, è quella che poi è stata bombardata?
GP: Sì. La chiesa qui ad Affori è stata danneggiata, diciamo la parte posteriore sì.
ZG: E invece diceva che la sua maestra delle elementari qua a Milano era terribile. Mi sa spiegare il perché? Si ricorda qualche episodio?
GP: No, era semplicemente cattiva. Quando io le dico che era una fascista ed era fascio-clericale perché, metta assieme queste due cose, si può immaginare che cosa ne viene fuori. Io poi nel dopoguerra mi ricordo che, mi ricordo, c’era un amico che abitava qui anche lui che ha, con questa maestra che la conoscevo bene, aveva qualche anno più di me, e mi, ‘Eh, la Giacchero!’ ne abbiamo parlato ‘La Giacchero’, fa ‘volevamo andare a prenderla a casa, ma poi mi hanno sconsigliato, l’abbiamo lasciata perdere’. Per dire che era proprio una signora che si distingueva dalle altre per essere così cattiva e fascista insomma. Ecco questo. Non tutte erano così naturalmente ma quella, combinazione, l’ho avuta io. È andata così.
ZG: Invece, cambiando discorso, lei si ricorda dei tedeschi? A parte per quell’episodio del 25 aprile?
GP: Sì, sì, mi ricordo dei tedeschi. Mi ricordo dei tedeschi perché i tedeschi avevano occupato l’Alta Italia tutti i paesi, non soltanto dei presidi. Tutti i paesi piccoli e grandi erano presidiati. Noi avevamo lì, abitava vicino a dove abitavo io, nello stesso cortile avevamo un, era un sottoufficiale, era un sottoufficiale o ufficiale non di grande grado comunque abitava lì, quel tedesco lì. Poi c’erano altri, c’è un capitano, c’era dei piccoli presidi insomma in altre parti del paese ma io mi ricordo c’era questo capitano che aveva sequestrato un cavallo bello, che correva a cavallo nel viale del paese, per dire un ricordo perché questo. C’erano tedeschi c’erano anche lì. Dappertutto.
ZG: Che impressione le facevano?
GP: Boh, niente, diciamo che, mi ricordo che mio fratello è andato a rubargli la marmellata in un, c’era in questo caseggiato c’era un magazzino che mio nonno faceva il falegname. Quando sono arrivati i tedeschi han sequestrato tutto, mio nonno non ha fatto più il falegname e loro mettevano lì le vettovaglie e mio fratello con un altro ragazzo sono andati a rubargli le scatole di marmellata eccetera. Si vede che si sono accorti che c’erano, non lo so, e, e questo qui si è accorto e ci ha dato tante scudisciate che [laughs] insomma ecco. Però come persona non era corretta, non, con noi non ha mai detto niente, mai fatto niente. Ci tenevano a stare tranquilli, stavano bene lì quel paese.
ZG: Senta, tornando a quel episodio del 25 aprile, lei aveva già avuto contatti con dei partigiani?
GP: No. Chiariamo bene. I contatti che avevo io erano con gli imboscati, che era diverso. Nel senso che, in quel paese lì i partigiani non c’erano, non avevano niente a che vedere, erano nei paesi più grandi erano verso le colline, verso le montagne. Ma però c’erano gli imboscati voglio dire il. Nel ’43, l’8 settembre, l’esercito si sfasciava e ricordo che molti venivano nelle case, ricordo benissimo venivano anche là, si toglievano le divise e cercavano qualche giacca, qualche pantalone per far vedere che non erano militari, per sfuggire alla Decima MAS che già cominciava a sentirsi. E non i partigiani, solo gli imboscati, cioè coloro che avevano la possibilità di imboscarsi nelle soffitte, nelle campagne, eccetera, ecco. Però c’era qualcuno, c’era qualcuno che si preparava, che non era, era sì un imboscato, non è andato con i partigiani, non è andato con la Decima MAS, con la RSI italiana, i repubblichini, ma che però erano imboscati. Però qualcuno si preparava in quel 25 aprile e siccome io li conoscevo tutti, conoscevo morte, conoscevo morte, vite e miracoli del paese e quindi li conoscevo e sapevo che andavano a provare i mitra, mi ricordo che preparavano le armi per l’eventuale, ma questo gli ultimi giorni ecco, conoscevo questi imboscati diciamo. Partigiani veri e propri li ho conosciuti dopo ma non lì.
ZG: E quando queste persone qua si preparavano con le armi lei ha assistiteva?
GP: Sì, una volta mi ricordo che ero andato assieme e sparavano alle piante per vedere l’effetto che facevano insomma, per vedere le armi se andavano bene. C’avevano un mitra, c’avevano delle pistole, quel gruppo lì insomma che conoscevo io.
ZG: E poi il 25 aprile insomma andando là ha incontrato questo gruppo di partigiani.
GP: Questi gruppi di imboscati, c’erano uno, no, c’erano due forse partigiani che passavano, che davano un po’, che mi davano l’impressione che erano partigiani. Gli altri li conoscevo, erano gli imboscati che c’erano lì, si erano svegliati al momento opportuno. C’era forse una o due persone, una c’era sicuramente che si [unclear] era però il gruppo era quello lì.
ZG: Quindi furono questi imboscati che si erano appostati con la mitragliatrice all’incrocio.
GP: Sì, sì, sì.
ZG: Allora direi che con le domande sulla guerra ho finito. Le volevo chiedere a finita la guerra, lei si ricorda cosa è successo dopo? Siete tornati a Milano, insomma mi racconti un po’.
GP: Ho scritto un libro io.
ZG: Ah.
GP: Beh, molto interessante perché eravamo, diciamo qualcuno era fortunato che era riuscito a fare le scuole medie e andare avanti chi era rimasto a Milano ma la massa era come me, quinta elementare, senza lavoro però la cosa interessante è che il lavoro si trovava subito, c’era molto lavoro, c’era da ricostruire, e quindi sia mio fratello che io e che i miei amici abbiamo trovato da lavoro lì. Ma io vu fa l’elettricista, io vado a fare il meccanico, no, io faccio il panettiere, poi ci, assieme parlavamo e dicevamo: ‘Io vorrei fare questo, vorrei fare quello’. E c’era veramente la possibilità e ci siamo tutti impegnati a lavorare. Abbiamo lavorato da questo punto di vista. E qui io pensavo, speravo di andare a lavorare nella Ceretti e Tanfani, dove c’era mio padre. Il direttore del quale di questa ditta, aveva promesso a mia madre nel ’45 che mi avrebbe assunto appena poteva, ma al momento non poteva e non l’ha fatto. Faccio una parentesi. Questo direttore è stato messo al muro dai tedeschi con i compagni della ditta negli scioperi del ’44, negli scioperi del ’44 perché voi sapete nel ’43 e nel ’44 degli scioperi delle fabbriche di Milano, in particolare Sesto San Giovanni e la Bovisa, dove c’erano tante fabbriche e lì c’erano un gruppo, gli operai erano organizzati, fatto sciopero sono entrati i tedeschi e li hanno messi al muro e non hanno sparato, non gli hanno fatto niente, li hanno obbligato a riprendere il lavoro perché era una ditta ausiliaria, facevano dei lavori che interessavano ai tedeschi e quindi questo signore qui è rimasto direttore d’officina anche dopo la guerra e alla fine prima di essere, di andare via è riuscito ad assumermi, nel ’48 mi ha assunto. Questa persona. E io lì ho potuto capire, sentire tutti gli operai, capire cosa, come hanno vissuto, cosa hanno fatto nel periodo di guerra. E perché allora avevo, nel ’48 avevo diciassette anni ero, e avevo già gli speroni io, eran già due anni che lavoravo e quindi conoscevo già le difficoltà della vita. E quindi poi lì subito a vent’anni ero in commissione interna, facevo commissione interna, quindi conosco bene la vita della fabbrica, prima perché tutti gli amici mi conoscevano perché mio padre ogni tanto mi portava al dopolavoro e allora c’era il dopolavoro. Mi portava là che andavano a giocare alle bocce e poi a Natale c’erano i regali che allora era così durante il tempo del fascio. E tutti gli uomini anziani, gli operai mi conoscevano e quindi ho potuto entrare e conoscere bene le cose. Poi, c’è molto del dopoguerra ma.
ZG: Senta la scuola invece poi è riuscito ad andare avanti quindi?
GP: Sì, ho avuto la fortuna. Dunque intanto la scuola non potevo più nel senso che non avevo fatto le medie, non c’era ancora perché poi i sindacati sono riusciti a imporre la possibilità di fare le scuole medie a chi non le aveva fatte ma io avevo [sic] già troppo avanti. Allora quando sono entrato in Ceretti, la Ceretti aveva le scuole interne. Ho fatto matematica, meccanica e disegno, io poi ero appassionato del disegno, lo facevo prima di andare ancora lì. Ho fatto questi anni qui, questi due, e questo mi ha permesso di studiare perché poi ero uno che, mi piaceva, sapevo, ci capivo. Mi ricordo che il direttore gli diceva agli insegnanti che, gli insegnanti erano tutti gli ingegnieri della ditta, ma perché, perché non, deve andare a scuola questo qui, rimandatelo a scuola, come per dire, perché vedeva che capivo e insomma perchè non va non so, perché non va, ma io avevo la testa dall’altra parte, la testa dall’altra parte dal punto di vista sindacale-politico, per cui non ero, volevo fare quello e non andare a scuola, anche perché alla scuola non potevo andare. Quelle lì l’ho fatta perché mi interessava professionalmente. Vi dirò che ho fatto la vita politica, la vita sindacale fino a ventisei anni, poco eh, dieci anni, a ventisette, a ventisei anni mi sono sposato. Dopodiché ho capito una cosa, che non ero nelle condizioni di fare né il sindacalista né il politico perché la cultura era quella che era per cui, meno male, che ho voluto imparare la mia professione perché sarei stato un cattivo politico e un cattivo sindacalista, questo proprio convinto. Invece ho litigato all’interno della mia azienda per poter avere il mio posto di lavoro, perché allora ero martellato dall’azienda perché volevano disfarmi, disfarsi. Una serie di circostanze che forse è inutile, non interessa a nessuno però diciamo che mi hanno mandato fuori dall’azienda in un’altra azienda di proprietà della Redaelli di Rogoredo. Ho fatto un’esperienza notevole anche là. Dopodiché ho cominciato a lavorare all’esterno della ditta per l’azienda. Alla fine vi dirò che ho fatto il montatore, il capo montatore, il capocantiere, nel ’69 sono andato in ufficio come ispettore di montaggio. Io ho girato il mondo, per dire. America latina, America, Venezuela, andato in parecchi altri posti, son stato in Iran, son stato in Pakistan, son stato in quasi tutta l’Europa nel, e ho cominciato a ventisette anni, ho fatto il primo lavoro da capocantiere, avevo dieci montatori e nel ’59, ventotto anni, e ottanta operai in Sicilia. Ho fatto una teleferica di diciotto chilometri come capo montatore, avevo tutti i montatori della Ceretti, tutti esperti, tutta gente anziana, esperta e io ero, avevo fatto, avevo dieci anni di lavoro alle spalle, avevo fatto anche l’Iran sempre con i capi montatori, avevo fatto la mia esperienza, ma l’ispettore, il capo dell’ufficio montaggi, quando m’ha chiamato per andare in Sicilia per fare quel lavoro lì, ho detto: ’Va bene, vado, chi è che è il capo là?’, ‘No il capo lo fa lei’, ‘No, guardi, il capo lo fa lei’. ‘Sì perché lei’, m’ha detto, ‘io sono sicuro che con la sua savoir-faire volevo dire, il suo modo di fare, riesce a controllare la situazione perché vede, se mando Minisini, se mando Bersani, se mando, son tutti capi, uno che la vuol sapere più lunga degli altri e in effetti era tutta gente esperta. Però lei può metterse, metterli d’accordo, percé se mando uno di questi a fare il capo è una lite unica. Li conosco tutti, mi creda’. ‘Guardi, se lo dice lei’, e in effetti è andata così. Partendo da lì ho fatto presto a far carriera soprattutto perché avevo una cultura tecnica, nel senso che conoscevo il disegno, un po’ di matematica, la meccanica perché se ho fatto l’esperienza, e quindi è stato facile per me far carriera. Facile [laughs], non facile, ma ho potuto farla. E così sono riuscito a fare i miei quarant’anni e poi ho fatto sei anni di consulente dell’azienda. Ecco, questo è stato un po’ la mia carriera.
ZG: Ok, fantastico. Senta,
GP: Beh, forse questo pezzo non vi interesserà, ma insomma, tanto per.
ZG: No, no, no, teniamo tutto, non si preoccupi. Le faccio le ultime due domande. Lei all’epoca, all’epoca della guerra, cosa pensava di chi la bombardava, di chi bombardava?
GP: Le dirò: io sono stato molte volte, mi hanno chiamato nei rifugi a parlare dei bombardamenti e della guerra e i ragazzi diciamo della terza media, o la terza media in genere o la quinta, i ragazzi di diciotto anni, devo dire che è molto faticoso, molto faticoso perché non riescono a esprimersi, non parlano, non chiedono, fanno fatica, però qualche volta qualche domanda intelligente veniva fuori. Mi ricordo che uno ha chiesto: ‘Ma insomma, lei cosa ne pensa degli americani? In fondo hanno ammazzato suo padre, fatto bombardamenti, hanno ammazzato suo padre, quindi come la pensa da questo punto di vista?’. Cosa ho risposto? Dico: ’Sentite, è finita la guerra, ci siamo liberati, io ho avuto la sensazione che ci siamo liberati veramente da un giogo, ci siamo liberati dal fascismo, e io credo che sia stato inevitabile questo sacrificio che abbiamo fatto. Cosa posso fare? Cosa posso mettermi a odiare gli americani? Tutto sommato, gli americani sono anche morti per venirci a liberare. I soldati americani stavano bene in America ma sono venuti qui e ci hanno aiutato a liberarci. È vero, hanno fatto anche dei danni ma alla fine cosa possiamo dire? Cosa possiamo fare? Abbiamo di fronte un altro periodo e non con il giogo sulle spalle’.
ZG: Bene. Per me, se lei non ha altro da dire, finiamo qua. Grazie.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Giuseppe Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
Giuseppe Pirovano remembers wartime memories as schoolboy at Affori, a Milan neighbourhood. Describes daily life in fascist youth organisations, with regimented schooling and political rallies. Mentions childrens plays and pastimes, such as assembling a kick scooter from scrap and recalls fascist militiamen intimidating and jailing dissenters. Recalls conscription dodgers and factory strikes. Gives an account of the 24 October 1942 bombing, which caused limited damage and describes the much more intense one of 10 September 1944. Gives a graphic account of its aftermath, mentioning the death of his father and widespread damage. Describes different shelter types stressing their inadequacy, mentions his experience as evacuee in the Brescia countryside while his father was employed by a manufacturing firm. Recalls Pippo strafing. Gives an account of his experience as trade union activist, describing his post-war career as mechanical engineer. Mentions his involvement in the memorialisation of the bombing war, reflects on the morality of bombing, and stresses how he feels grateful for the sacrifice of those who died.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Format
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01:04:38 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Brescia
Temporal Coverage
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1942-10-04
1944-09-10
1943-09-08
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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APirovanoG171113
PPirovanoG1701
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/151/1580/PGildersleveG1601.1.jpg
962e75a62a1d0544811bf754c89d96c6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/151/1580/AGildersleveG160905.1.mp3
92b3c008a57715600343bf1fbef3cd7c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gildersleve, Gladys
G Gildersleve
Paul Gildersleve
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. The collections consists of one oral history interview and two photographs all related to Gladys Gildersleve (b. 1924; 2030715 Royal Air Force). She began her training as a Women’s Auxiliary Air Force member at RAF Morecambe. Her first posting was to barrage balloons at Swansea Docks. Gladys eventually re-mustered as an instrument checker and was based at a number of bases including RAF Shenington. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Paul and Gladys Gildersleve and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Date
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2016-09-05
Identifier
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Gildersleve
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PJ: My name is Pete Jones. I am interviewing Gladys Gildersleve who was in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force. Other people attending are Sandra Jones and her son Paul Gildersleve. It is the 5th of September 2016 and we are in Gladys’ home in Middleton Cheney, Oxfordshire. Thank you Gladys for agreeing to be interviewed for the IBCC. Gladys, tell me about your early years.
GG: Ok. It starts off before the war. I worked in a firm called GC Laboratories and two or three girls got together and said, ‘How about we go and join up?’ One girl wanted me to go in to the Land Army and I said ‘no because I didn’t like the smells.’ I couldn’t stand the smell. So the other girl said, ‘Well I’m going in the WAAF,’ and I said, ‘That sounds like a good idea,’ so we do that and we go to the place to join up. Take your particulars down. ‘You’re fine. You’ll hear from us, go back to work.’ A letter comes. You can’t go because your firm won’t release you. So that was upsetting. A few weeks later the letter came, ‘They’ve changed their minds. You can go.’ So we went up to this place in Edgeware and signed all the forms. They told us when to go, what to do, went back home, packed up, said goodbye to everybody, to work, home, went back ‘Oh it’s the wrong day. Sorry. You have to go home and come back again tomorrow.’ So tomorrow came and we did go and we got taken up to Bridgnorth where we had to collect all our gear, everything I had, coat, they provided underwear, stockings and shoes, everything and then we were joined by the side of a big open land and the mess site was across the other side and this big sergeant said, ‘Once you’ve got your stuff go across to the mess, get something to eat.’ So that’s what we did. We went across and then he shouted at us to ‘Stop!’ That we were walking on hallowed ground apparently. It was the parade ground and we didn’t know it was hallowed and we stood there frozen and then he shouted off, ‘Don’t you dare walk on that again. If I catch you you’ll be on a charge.’ That means we have got to pay.’ And he said ‘You’ve gone so far, carry on.’ Well would you go around if somebody said go across? Anyway, we got something to eat and we did walk all the way back to our billet. The next morning we got sent to Morecambe and it was August ‘42 and the holidaymakers there were having a whale of a time. They lined up along the promenade every morning and I realised why. To watch us learning to march and do our drill and this first day we were marching along and a women touched my arm, she said, ‘The others have gone the other way.’ They’d turned around and gone back and we didn’t hear and we were just [laughs] and I said, ‘Oh we’d better turn around,’ so we turned. The sergeant never came up to us and shouted. And then the next day it was gas capes and you had to fold them right. If you did you pulled the cord and it just dropped down over you but if you didn’t fold it right it didn’t come down and there’s two young girls, silly little things they were, they didn’t fold it right, they had an arm here, it was around their legs, of course we were all having hysterics instead, and we were supposed to be marching at the same time. Then we had to put the gas mask on, the big ones with the big pipe, everyone was blowing raspberries out the side and we’re laughing. The holidaymakers had a whale of a time. They must have, you know, you wouldn’t have known there was a war on at all and we had no lectures, nothing. So we didn’t know what it was all about. We thought it was a laugh you know and we really enjoyed it. And then we had all our injections and everything else and then we got told where we were going to go and you couldn’t choose. Well you could tell her what you wanted to do but they took no notice and they said me and this other girl we were going to be on the balloons. So they sent us to Swansea docks and we, our billet was between Swansea docks and Cardiff docks and the railway run right by the side of our billet so if they decided to bomb there we’d be right in the middle and it was on this great big expanse of land, all black tarmac and black fence up there, not a light to be seen and we got there about mid-day and somebody who’d been allocated as a cook or something was cooking lunch and the sergeant said, ‘Eat your lunch,’ she said, ‘And then we’ll sort out who is going to go on guard.’ She said to us, ‘You two can go two till four. So I thought oh we’d better hurry up and eat our lunch. ‘Not this afternoon,’ she said, ‘It’s tonight.’ The middle of the night. ‘Ooh. I can’t go out in in the middle, never been out in the middle of the night before.’ She said, ‘Well you’ve got to go. You’ve got to do it.’ So we went out and it was pitch black. You couldn’t see a thing. We had a little torch and it just shone a light. We huddled up in a corner and then we saw a light coming across, it was just going across, moving all over the place so we run and hid. We didn’t know we had to challenge them. So we were hiding and it was coming nearer and nearer then this woman called out, ‘Where’s the guard?’ ‘Oh my God, it’s the duty officer.’ This great big tall Italian officer as she bellowed at us. [laugh] ‘Where were you?’ ‘Well we were hiding.’ She said, ‘That’s not what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to challenge me.’ Well we didn’t know. We weren’t told. We were just told to go on guard. So, she let us off because it was our first time and then we had to look after the phone and every so often they would ring the phone and say, ‘Check the tension on the cable,’ so this night we went and I climbed up the winch, in the winch to check and I kept saying, ‘There’s nothing on it. It doesn’t say anything. It can’t be right’. So she come and had a look. No. It still said no pressure on it. So we said, ‘Well we’d better have a look at the balloon,’ and it wasn’t there. It had gone and I said, ‘Well somebody’s got to phone and tell them that the balloon’s gone,’ so she lost the toss so she had to tell them. And they said, ‘Never mind dear. We’ve lost a lot tonight. They’ll send a new one tomorrow.’ So the next day we had to pump this balloon up [laugh] and then they decided they’d finished with the balloons. Then I was allocated as an instrument repairer and went to Melksham. It was like being at school ‘cause you sat on long benches and there was all instruments there in pieces and you’d got to learn what the pieces were and where they went and you had exams at the end of each week and you could move up a class. One class two or class two then class one. I got a one at the end so that wasn’t too bad and then we got sent, I came up here to Edgehill from there. There sometime and then another place [unclear] Great Horwood, oh lots of villages all around here, everywhere around here and then we got moved on somewhere else and when the war finished they said we can all go home so we got on our bikes, rode up to Banbury, never got any money so you didn’t have a ticket so you all climbed on the train coming up to London and at one point they put the guard out on the platform, he managed to get back on, and just walked through saying, ‘Behind. Behind. The one behind had got the tickets,’ and you run then we got back and then you got the feeling they’d finished with you. They didn’t know what to do with you. Surplus to requirements. So we got shifted all over the country. We went up to Rutland, Chester and all places like that. As they started to demob you had to go by initial and it took a year for me to get demobbed and they sent you around and you just keep going, you might spend two weeks in one place, just get to know people and you move on and as one lot were moving out they were then moving the next lot in. Then you might end up when you got back and eventually you got out. You had to go to Birmingham then and then we were told we had to send all our gear back. Couldn’t keep anything of it. Your shoes, tights, the skirts, the tops, everything and yet the men got a suit given them for nothing. And that suit they could keep. All they wanted, we felt they wanted to get rid of us. And then we used to have fun when we were on the planes. We had to get in and check the, all their instruments, make sure they were working properly and check their oxygen. Make sure they were all full of oxygen and their bombsight, you had to check that to make sure it was accurate so they would hit the target. Nine times out of ten they didn’t of course and they always said it was our fault. Never pilot error. It was always our fault but it couldn’t be our fault because you wouldn’t dream of signing the book to say you’ve done it unless you’d done it right. But we used to have fun. The men thought it was fun. We were in there working away. Somebody would take the ladder away so you can’t get out. It’s too far to jump down so you wait till they let you out. Another time they started towing the plane. They towed the plane all the way on the other side while we’re still in it so we had to walk all the way back and our bikes weren’t there, they were on top of a Nissen hut so you had to get someone to get it down off the Nissen hut. There was four sections, A B C and D. We was in D over on that side. We had a Nissen hut for us, and the electricians and another group of people, I can’t quite remember who they were and right behind our billet was a five bar gate. You opened that gate in a country lane and it led right into the village of Shenington, [?] house, a big house on the corner and it was full of airmen and WAAF. She used to do jam sandwiches. She cooked breakfast. Where she got it all from we don’t know but we used to nip down there for a bite or one person would go and fetch the lot back and it was great. We had lots of fun, you know. I think that’s about as much as I can remember. Just going from place to place after that until it was time to come home. So whether or not that’ll satisfy you or not I don’t know. If it’s quite, not quite what you wanted to hear.
SJ: How did your parents react when —
GG: Not bothered. They weren’t bothered [laugh]
SJ: No.
GG: No. But when I read out, my twin sister oh she was a brrr, I told her what I was going to do and I said don’t tell anybody but when I got back everybody knew. ‘We know what you’ve done’ [laugh] and I felt as if I was guilty that I could’ve done it without telling anybody. No. They weren’t bothered.
SJ: No.
GG: But no, but it was good.
SJ: So did you have any superstitions or any lucky mascots?
GG: No. No. They weren’t, it was a training airfield. It wasn’t a combat area.
PJ: Operational.
GG: They were just training them but they sent them off on little bombing missions to, you know to learn what they’re doing.
PJ: Yeah.
GG: Because these cocky youngsters come in, think they’ve got smart uniform and got their wings on their shirt and they'd think they were so good and yet some of them were useless. So, but every time a plane came in we had to go out and check it all and if there was anything wrong with the — one of the instruments we used to have to take it out and take it down to our main office where there were people there that would either repair them or give us a new one to put in, so it was all backwards and forwards and there were so many things you forget what you did because it’s all in the back of your mind, it’s gone, and it’s just all the silly things you did. More the fun. It was hard at times and you were at a loose end. There wasn’t anything to do. Especially if you’re in these little towns and nothing going on and just used to get on with each other and make your own fun.
SJ: What did you do in the evenings then?
GG: Well that was just it. There was nothing to do so we’d either sit and chat in our billets or when we had the NAAFI you could go in there because it had reading rooms, games rooms, all sorts. Separate rooms that you could go and sit over there and there was always tea and coffee on the go, you’d help yourself. But they had, they had some shows come and if it was terrible they would all shout out, ‘More.’ You know, they want more but usually it was terrible. [laugh] But when the NAAFI place was built they used to have big bands come and have dances there and that was good. But Saturday nights well you see, we used to go down to Tysoe village and meet up with the soldiers from Cardington. They’d come across, meet in the Castle Pub, have a drink, then all go across to the village hall to a dance. That sort of thing. That was only once a week so the other times there wasn’t really a lot to do especially if you were in one of these out of the way places like down Swansea docks. We never went off the site. There was nowhere to go because you know it was all just bare ground. But we used to get lifts, when we were at Melksham we used to get a lift on anything that was going in to Southampton or somewhere like that. It could be a funeral car, a fire engine, a lorry. Whatever was going and they would stop and give you a lift, there were no buses or anything. And that’s about it. I don’t remember much more.
SJ: So how long were you in?
GG: Four years altogether.
SJ: Yeah.
GG: Eighteen when I went out and twenty two when I came out. I joined in the August ’42 and the war ended in August and I came out in August ’46. So everything was August. The thing is it took a year after the war before I could get demobbed and there was others behind me. My letter was H so you can imagine how many behind me there must have been. So, I don’t know if they did they same for the men or not. Whether they took them by alphabet but they did us but you got the feeling all the time they didn’t know what to do with you. They were trying to get rid of you. Each place you went they were trying to get rid of you as quick as they could, you know. Move you on. ‘Cause there was nothing for us to do. They were gradually taking down all the planes. They were coming out of use and there wasn’t really anything for us to do. It got a bit boring towards the end. You had to make your own fun you know or die of boredom, you know.
SJ: Yeah.
PJ: Yeah. The air balloons then. Were they filled with gas?
GG: The what?
PJ: You know the balloons then. Were they filled—
GG: Yeah.
PJ: With gas or —
GG: No it was a sort of air stuff. You had to pump stuff in to it.
PJ: Yeah.
GG: I don’t know quite what it was. Sometimes it came on a lorry already done which was a better way for us, but we still just had to still connect it to all the gadgets on the ground all the hooks and things. I had my thumb dislocated one time because the wind blows it and you can see the shape of my thumb now. That’s my war wound. Now I’ve got arthritis in that. Had to go to a medical place to have it seen to and they’d had no training these girls. They’d just gone into the Medical Corps and she strapped it up in a sort of elastic bandage so after two weeks it had to come off. Instead of cutting it as you should do she pulled it bit by bit, dislocated it again. So then she had to fetch the MO then. Panic. And he said, ‘These girls have had no training, disgusting. No training. Nothing.’ So he did it but did a different sort of bandage. He said, ‘When it’s time to come off I’ll see to it for you.’ So he did. You just cut down a strip. I kept saying, ‘You’re pulling it out. I can feel it going.’ So now as you see it’s bulging there and it’s twisted. I could claim damages I suppose [laughs] I’ve left it a bit late I think. [laughs]
PJ: Have you stayed in touch with any of your former colleagues or —
GG: No —
PJ: Over the years.
GG: We all went separate ways. I mean the girl I started off with on the balloons I didn’t see her again until I was moving on waiting to be demobbed and I — but by then she’d got her own group of friends there and you can’t just walk in then and that’s how it seemed to be. Depending on your initial you see. The girl I joined up with, I never ever saw her again. I don’t know where she went. [unclear] So really I was on my own right from the start. You get to know somebody and with them for quite some time and then they suddenly move you and you all go in different directions. Even though you’re doing the same job they send you to different places. One we— where was it, Sealand in Chester special [?] for the RAF and then the Poles came there. They, they even printed their own coupons and selling them. They got caught of course. But the way they ate, they used their fingers. They didn’t use knives and forks. So there was a lot of complaining and they moved them into their own section of the place then, oh put me right off them. Perhaps I shouldn’t have been saying that but [laughs] but when you get to my age you don’t care. If it’s there you’ve got to say it. And that’s about it I think. I can’t think of anything else unless you’ve got questions to ask.
SJ: What did you do when you came out of —
GG: I went back to my old job.
SJ: the WAAF.
GG: I went back to my old job. Because it was a reserved occupation they had to keep my job for me, but I changed my job before. I was making little sort of little anode, a piece of metal and you had to put it on a machine [unclear] flange each end that was part, I don’t know what it was part of but it was all —so I went into the office. Taught myself to type. That sort of thing. So I did better then. They had to give me a job so I got this job and I stayed there till I left to have the children and that was it. So that was very lucky really. Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: Anything that you want –
PG: Didn’t you keep in touch with a friend that used to send you Christmas cards or something every year?
GG: Oh I used to, oh Mabel. That’s right. She left — her boyfriend came home early when the war finished and they let her leave to go home to get married. I used to write her Christmas and birthdays. Then one year the card came back ‘unable to deliver’ and I never ever found out what that meant. I never heard from her again. I can’t understand — it sounds a funny thing to say. Could say gone away or something like that but unable to deliver. It sounds strange. That was up in Yorkshire. Then I thought oh perhaps they’d pulled these places down where she lived and she’s gone somewhere else but then her daughter knew me because she’d come to stay with me. I thought well if something happened she could have, she could have let me know. So often now it comes to me I wonder what did happen to her ‘cause I couldn’t understand the unable to deliver. And I checked the address, double-checked and it was the right address and everything, so what it meant I don’t know. So but that’s the only person that I did keep in touch with. I don’t know what happened to the others. Shame really because you get to know people and suddenly they’re gone but, there we are. Not to worry. Too late to worry isn’t it?
SJ: Did you have any experience of bombings?
GG: Pardon.
SJ: Did you have any experience of bombings —
GG: No.
SJ: Where you were stationed?
GG: No. Not in any of them. I think we might have been too far off their map where they wanted to bomb. Here it would be quite some way in. Away from London and the big things. I mean, we were an open target. Sometimes the Lancasters used to come in when they’d been on a raid suddenly they would come in so we would be loaded with Wellington bombers, Lancasters and everything. Yet you’d never see a plane. You used to stand and watch them go, the Lancasters go out on a trip. Count them going out then you’d count them coming back in you know and this horrible feeling of oh you know there’s quite a lot missing, but none of it got bombed around here. Amazing. Don’t well [?] understand it. None of the stations I went to really had anything. So really we didn’t know there was a war on. Some places they never had any, anything at all. So there we are.
PG: Didn’t you have an experience with a V1?
GG: Oh no that was when I came home on leave. Yeah. I came home on leave and I was standing on the corner of the road waiting for my bus. Got as far as Ealing Common waiting for my bus and this thing went over and suddenly it stopped. I didn’t know what it was and the people at the bus stop, they all run. Where they have gone? Somebody come out, ‘Quick. Quick in here.’ I said, ‘Why? What’s up?’ ‘You don’t know where that’s going to land.’ And all of a sudden boom! I thought oh my goodness me whatever is it? She said that’s a V1. A V1 bomber. I’d never heard anything like, had nothing at all down here, you know. It was a bit of a shock. While I was home I could hear a plane so I opened up the bedroom window hanging my head out and there was all Anderson shelters in the garden and this one plane came and he was shooting at every one as he went, you could hear the bullets going. My mother, ‘Shut the window.’ ‘Why? I’m watching the plane.’ And I thought then what miserable rotten devils to go, just to shoot, it would only be women and children in them and all they did going along and shooting at them which I thought was terrible. I mean where I lived we had more bombing than they had around here. Amazed at — and of course a lot of farmers, I think this house where we got all our food stuff they must have had their own farm where they picked their own food, made their own jam, that sort of thing. That’s how they would have been able to do it otherwise I don’t know how they would have got the coupons to get food, but all these airmen, I mean there were masses of us there and sometimes the place would be bulging at the seams with everybody that was in there, and I don’t expect that even one of them should be there. If there was an inspection there’d have been trouble.
SJ: Where was that again?
GG: That was up here. Edgehill. Or Shenington as they called it. They make out they don’t know what you mean when you say Edgehill because it’s Shenington [unclear] you know. I have to try and remember that it’s Shenington. But no just an old couple, a mother and daughter. They did very well. Everybody was very thankful that they were there, otherwise you couldn’t go off in to the mess just when you wanted to. You could only, when it was your lunchtime. That sort of thing. Some of the food was alright and some wasn’t alright [laughs] but there was always the NAAFI to buy somethings so you didn’t worry. We got by. Yes. Yeah.
SJ: Any other stories you can tell us?
GG: Not really, that I can think of [laughs].
PJ: How long were you working on the planes then? What period of time?
GG: Well, when did the balloons finish? I think they finished about ’43 I think. They weren’t long. Weren’t there all that long cause that’s the only place I went to, the balloons. No. So it would have been from then ’43 till ’46 when I came out? Two or three years. Three years in all.
SJ: When you said they lost some balloons –
GG: Yeah.
SJ: Did they just escape?
GG: Oh yes. It’s such a tension on it that the cable snaps and it just goes. A funny thing, I saw something on the telly the other day. A film about the V1 and it’s coming along, zooming along, and it cuts right through a balloon, and the balloon floats — Oh I said, ‘that must be my one.’ [laughs] Now my daughter’s just got a job working at a place and the name of the thing is printed on a balloon. You can see it flying in the town and she tells this manager at her first interview, ‘My mum lost a balloon during the war.’ He said, ‘I hope it doesn’t run in the family.’ [laugh] I said, ‘Fancy telling him.’ They all know about them. I’ve told them all these stories to the children, the grandchildren — and I have a laugh myself sometimes. I can see the funny side of it you know, and the youngsters today they wouldn’t believe that this old lady went doing these sort of things you know. Things that — never ask for a late pass. You’d just go out and when we came back from dances we used to ride our bikes halfway down, pick them put them on our shoulder, walk on the grass behind the guardroom and then get on again the other end and carry on cycling. That would be about midnight. We weren’t even supposed to be out. But [laugh] I think they must have known. They couldn’t possibly not know could they? That happened every week we used to do that, but as I say you remember all the fun bits and all the bad, boring bits are just gone. Just wiped from my mind. It was over seventy years ago. Seventy four years since I joined up. My God. How am I still here? [laugh] I don’t know many of us are left but people are living longer these days aren’t they? Yeah.
PG: Didn’t you have some friends, some girls who did parachute packing?
GG: Oh one girl, yes they all — one girl was a parachute packer and she volunteered to test her one out that she’d packed. Oh my God she was brave. She went up and she did do a jump with it. How lucky it opened up. [laugh] It could have been a disaster. I don’t think I could have done that. That was a responsibility wasn’t it? To do, to do that up. Well ours was just as bad. If our instruments were wrong, our altimeters and things like that they could have been up the creek but, it was like the bombsight because you have to lay down. It was like a thick Perspex there and a light on it and you got elongated cross. You’d got to make sure that lined up exactly otherwise they’d miss their target which they did anyway so I mean, so it didn’t matter but at least we knew it was right before they went so they couldn’t blame us. No. And then there’s — what was that they had on the wing? They called it a pitot-head. Comes out and it’s a long sort of tube thing. I can’t remember what that’s for but you had to make sure that it heated up alright so whether that was to help with frost on the wings or not I’m not sure.
PJ: No.
GG: I can’t remember now. No. I can’t think of anything else now. My brain’s wearing out or mine’s everyone’s tired it’s having a bit of a rest [laugh] is that good bad or indifferent? Is that what you wanted?
PJ: Well thank you Gladys for agreeing to be interviewed by the IBCC. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Gladys Gildersleve
Creator
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Pete Jones
Date
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2016-09-05
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00:28:42 audio recording
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGildersleveG160905
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
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Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Lancashire
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Julie Williams
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Description
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Gladys Gildersleve was working for a laboratory when she decided to join the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force. She began her training at RAF Bridgenorth and at RAF Morecambe. Her first posting was to barrage balloons at Swansea Docks. She eventually re-mustered as an instrument checker and was based at a number of stations including RAF Shenington near Edgehill. She experienced a V-1 bomb when at home on leave. She also recounts an aircraft that strafed near her home.
demobilisation
ground personnel
military living conditions
military service conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
RAF Melksham
RAF Morecambe
RAF Shenington
strafing
V-1
V-weapon
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/60/528/PDellEraG1701.2.jpg
256939ba01c61bf2c5e2007b8c645f83
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/60/528/ADell EraG170225.2.mp3
94a9f104f1910111032202d949bf8b81
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EP: Ok. L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatrice è Erica Picco. L’intervistato è il Signor Guido Dell’Era. Nella stanza è presente Sara Troglio. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted] a Milano e oggi è il 25 febbraio e sono le undici del mattino. Possiamo cominciare. La prima domanda che le faccio, come si è detto, partiamo da prima della guerra.
GD: Si’
E le chiedo, cosa faceva lei prima della guerra? Studiava? Quanti anni aveva? Come organizzava la sua quotidianità? Quali erano le sue impressioni riguardo a quel periodo?
GD: Prima della guerra, io ero studente. Sono stato studente fino a diciott’anni. Diciott’anni fino quando ho preso il diploma di geometra conseguito presso l’istituto, dunque, Carlo Cattaneo di Piazza Vetra a Milano. Per raggiungere l’istituto dovevo prendere il tram su Viale Monza, la linea Milano-Monza, scendevo a Porta Venezia, da lì prendevo un altro tram per portarmi verso il centro di Milano. Questo è il percorso che facevo, e l’ho fatto per parecchi anni, finché avevo finito la scuola. Il periodo significativo, cioè che ricordo bene è stato il 25 aprile del 1943, quando è stato defenestrato Mussolini e anche lì bisognava vedere le reazioni del popolo. Ricordo la stazione centrale, c’erano due fasci enormi di bronzo, sono stati proprio abbattuti [emphasis] completamente, e si sentiva proprio l’odio verso Mussolini perché indubbiamente, tutti quanti nel giugno del ’40 sembrava che fossero osannanti Mussolini, ah meno male perché, ci sembrava che fosse un motivo logico perché i tedeschi stavano invadendo tutta l’Europa, ‘come mai Mussolini non entra? ah deve entrare’. Sapevamo tutti quanti, lo sapevamo noi che eravamo giovani, che parecchie armi erano finte. C’erano i carri armati di legno per scrivere agli atti. Quando Mussolini ha invitato Hitler in Italia e ha fatto vedere che erano carri carmati di legno, i cannoni di legno, cosa incredibile. Siamo, per cui siamo entrati in guerra nel modo peggiore, tutto perché c’è questa fretta di voler agganciare, agganciarsi ai tedeschi perché, se per caso i tedeschi avessero vinto, noi saremmo rimasti fuori, invece partecipando è stata poi la nostra rovina. E adesso, diceva, scusi?
EP: Le chiedevo appunto, prima della guerra.
GD: Ah, prima della guerra, sì, sì.
EP: Prima proprio dello scoppio.
GD: Appunto, facevo questo dopo scuola. Poi c’è stata l’interruzione nel giugno del ’44 quando mi avevano chiamato per andare a fare lavori agricoli leggeri in Germania. Per cui sono rimasto da quel momento senza tessera, senza niente, ero un isolato, un disertore praticamente perché non mi ero presentato alle armi. E c’era il pericolo effettivamente che se per caso avessero beccato un qualche volantino contro il Fascismo c’era la galera, tant’è vero che un mio compagno di scuola, delle elementari questo di Sesto San Giovanni, Renzo Del Riccio è stato fucilato nell’agosto del 1943, fucilato in Piazzale Loreto, perché Loreto è diventato così famoso in seguito prima di questo omicidio, di questo fatto eh [pause]. Dunque della Svizzera ho già raccontato mi sembra, no.
EP: Ci racconti ancora, ci racconti meglio.
GD: Ho tentato di entrare, ah sì, ero entrato già in Svizzera attraverso il valico ferrovie dello stato sceso a Bienzone un paesino che c’è in Valtellina ho valicato questo pezzo di non dico di Alpi, di montagne, sono arrivato nel, in Svizzera e mi ha colpito molto avendo qui abituati agli oscuramenti a vedere questa vallata tutta illuminata proprio mi ha colpito in un modo terribile perché di la non c’era la guerra di conseguenza bisognava tutto. Dopo due giorni ci hanno rimandato indietro perché non potevamo. Comunque con noi c’era una famiglia, una piccola famiglia costituita da padre, madre e questo bimbetto, si sono fatti cura gli svizzeri di telefonare a Zurigo dove viveva questa nonna, l’hann chiamata e hanno preso il bambino praticamente è rimasta la bambina. Di cinque persone, beh tre sono rimaste, due prigionieri russi che erano con noi, il bambino e noi due invece, noi tre siamo venuti indietro. Io ho potuto riprendere la scuola, mi ero rivolto al presidente, al preside della scuola, ho detto, guardi che io sono nato a febbraio però se lei mi fa un documento come risulta dalla carta da me falsificata, è stato molto gentile tra l’altro, è stato molto comprensivo, e ho potuto finire la scuola. In quel periodo mi ricordo che erano venuti anche a fare propaganda, addirittura c’era uno, me lo ricordo come se fosse ieri, piccoletto, grassoccio con i baffettini, che faceva propaganda per le SS italiane, pensate un po’ che roba. Perché purtroppo in Italia in quel momento lì c’erano quelli che andavano alle SS, quelli che andavano alla Muti, quelli che andavano alla Resiga, insomma [pause] e in questo frangente mi ricordo che.
Unknown person: Scusi, io vado signor Guido, ci vediamo dopo. La chiave è lì al solito posto.
GD: Va bene, grazie ciao. Scusate che mi fermo ogni tanto perché devo fare un po’ mente locale.
EP: Ci mancherebbe altro.
GD: Sono passati troppi anni. E poi, dunque, un momentino, quando ho detto che ho lavorato per due o tre anni in un impresa di costruzioni a Sesto San Giovanni poi mi sono fatto la domanda all’ENI. Combinazione stavano facendo un pezzo di gasdotto e io ho spostato dei materiali di che [unclear] da parte voi ma esistono su alla SNAM, la SNAM non si sapeva cos’era di preciso e allora cosa ho fatto ho presentato domanda in Corso Venezia 16 e mi hanno assunto. Andavano a vedere però se una persona era a posto, se era idee politiche o altro, questo lo guardavano eh, il servizio del personale della SNAM. Poi, non so, l’ho già detto, sono stato all’AGIP mineraria in via Gabba, poi via Gabba siamo, tornati, andati tutti a San Donato Milanese quando San Donato Milanese è diventato grosso quartiere non solamente residenziale ma anche di uffici, hanno fatto il primo palazzo uffici, secondo palazzo uffici, vabbè insomma sono arrivato là. Io sono andato in pensione nel milenovecento, cento, sai che non lo ricordo, beh trentacinque anni dopo, dal ’50 all’86.
EP: Vorrei riportarla al periodo appunto dello scoppio della guerra.
GD: Sì.
EP: Innanzitutto volevo capire meglio la sua famiglia, se era figlio unico, se ha altri fratelli.
GD: Sì, figlio unico.
EP: E in famiglia, l’avvento della guerra com’è stato vissuto, ne avete parlato a casa, come, come è stato vissuto?
GD: Mah, cosa vuole, allora non si poteva parlarne a casa, perché eravamo un po’ inquadrati tutti quanti, no. Beh, io sono stato Balilla, sono stato Avanguardista, tutte queste, marinaretto anche a Milano va bene comunque [laughs] e abbiamo seguito questo però Mussolini era un grande uomo finché è venuto fuori tutte le magagne che sono venute fuori. No, io ricordo per esempio che il primo, nel giugno, non so esattamente se il trenta quando, il primo allarme d’aereo ecco, il primo allarme è stato una cosa scioccante mi ricordo dormivo e c’era mia mamma che veniva a scrollarmi ero in sonno profondo, ero giovane e dice ‘Guido guarda che c’è il bombardamento, c’era l’allarme allora abbiamo incominciato ad assuefarci agli allarmi aerei c’era la prima sirena, la seconda sirena, il pericolo grave, il pericolo non grave, c’era tutto un sistema. Milano, ecco questo, era circondata da batterie di contraerea. Erano cannoni che ci hanno forniti i tedeschi perché anche noi [unclear] andavamo a prendere le inferriate delle case, come a casa mia per fonderli e fare l’acciaio, figurati un po’ che l’autarchia . E quando venivano gli aerei entravano in funzione le batterie e sparavano, sparavano non si sa. Sembrerà che ci fossero anche i tedeschi a aiutarci a usare le batterie. Ho saputo poi che gli aerei, i cannoni arrivavano fino a ottomila metri d’altezza e gli aerei cosa facevano, stavano su una quota superiore per cui non si prendevano mai. Infatti in tutto il periodo di guerra mi sembra che Milano abbia abbattuto tre aerei, tre aerei, pensate un po’. Quando, quando è arrivato, quando sono arrivati dal, sempre dal sud arrivavano, a bombardare Precotto, eh quello me lo ricordo bene, i bombardamenti di Precotto, eravamo io e mio padre sul terrazzo di casa, un po’ incoscienti vediamo cosa c’è, abbiamo visto in cielo un gruppo di aerei ma erano parecchi eh sembrava che, da sotto sparavano ma, mah, dico chissà cosa sono poi abbiamo sentito come il sibilo delle bombe che scendevano e le esplosioni perché per la prima bomba che noi abbiamo scoperto qui da noi era a chilometri di distanza davanti alla chiesa di Precotto era scoppiata la prima bomba. Eh niente c’era un tram, mi ricordo, un convoglio tramviario che era stato bloccato perché c’era l’allarme ma non solo ma perché era stata bombardata la strada. Allora cosa ho fatto io, come mia madre era andata non so per quale motivi in comune, allora io parto alla ricerca di mia madre, speriamo che non sia su questo tram che è stato colpito. E sono arrivato fino a Porta Venezia. A Porta Venezia c’erano ancora le, i baracconi delle fiere lì, tiro a segno, altre giostre, ed era lì che c’erano tutti, guardate cosa è successo, a due chilometri di distanza è stato un bombardamento orca miseria lo sapevo io portavano adesso con i telefonini si sa tutto quanto ma allora e dico guardate che è successo sta roba ma no e dico purtroppo è così allora a piedi torno poi mia madre era riuscita a venire a casa da sola, siamo venuti con dei miei amici siamo venuti a piedi. Ecco un’altra cosa per esempio quando c’era l’allarme a scuola maggior parte cercava di fuggire, di non andare nei rifugi [unclear] per venire a casa, perche’ insomma e facevamo a piedi dal Carlo Cattaneo, Piazza Vetra fino qui a casa. Quando si arrivava a casa arrivava, finiva l’allarme e arrivava il tram, questo è un particolare. Serviva a noi per fare un po’ di ginnastica. Ecco. Vabbè
PD: Permesso, buongiorno
EP: Buongiorno.
GD: Patrizia, Ciao, Patrizia. Mia figlia.
PD: Buongiorno.
EP: Piacere. Possiamo riprendere?
GD: Sì, se volete possiamo parlare anche semplicemente di fatti politici. Perché prima abbiamo parlato, no del momento la caduta di Mussolini è stata il 25 aprile del ’43 e anche lì sfogo della gente perché insomma. E mi ricordo a Porta Venezia c’era ancora uno con i fascetti lì [laughs] ma scusi ma cosa sta facendo lei e gli dico guardi che non c’è più Mussolini dovrebbe averli al contrario [laughs] quello si è preso, è scappato via di volata, vabbè. Ecco invece nel bombardamento di Precotto cosa visto una cosa gravissima, sembra che sia stato un errore logistico cioè anziché prendere le ferrovie dello stato hanno preso il Viale Monza e purtroppo ci sono stati duecento e rotti morti al Gorla. A Precotto invece è stata colpita anche lì la scuola di Precotto infatti c’è ancora la foto, l’ho fatta fare io quella targa ‘scuola bombardata il 20 ottobre del 1944’. I bambini che mi dispiace perché avrei detto a un mio amico se vuoi venire lì per l’intervista era un bambino d’allora [unclear] però insomma fatto sta che grazie alla partecipazione di questo Don Carlo Porro si chiama questo, è intervenuto e altri cittadini che erano li, avevano aiutato hanno passato l’inferriata della cantina e hanno fatto uscire tutti i bambini. Come sono usciti i bambini, è crollato il rifugio antiaereo, che poi momento rifugio antiaereo per modo di dire perché cos’erano delle travi di legno con dei puntelli sotto, no, non c’era niente di particolare. E tant’è vero che Don Carlo Porro è stato insignito della medaglia d’oro al valore civile. Ecco poi andando avanti nel, in questo percorso che facevamo, mi ha colpito una ragazza giovane stesa sul marciapiede. Come pure anche un cavallo, pensate un po’ che roba, quel cavallo ce lo siamo ripresi, ripresi io e un altro mio amico che combinazione era di guardia alla stazione di Greco e dice ma ti ricordi eh? Mi ricordo quel cavallo, poveretto, era squarciato, tant’è vero che l’hanno accoppato subito, per non farlo soffrire [pause]. Ecco, il Viale Monza era, era come, vediamo, può girare la pagina c’era in fondo, ecco Viale Monza era così, ecco linea tramviaria, il percorso andata e ritorno e gli alberi. Era uno spettacolo, in estate sembrava di entrare quasi in una cosa, nell’aria condizionata perché questi rami che si riunivano in cima perché erano alberi molto alti quelli che poi fra l’altro gli alberi sono stati rubati [emphasis] in tempo di guerra perché non c’era niente. Non c’era carbone, non c’era niente. Ogni tanto si prendevano la fune, sotto con l’accetta, rompevano e facevano cadere l’albero e poi saltavano addosso come tanti topi a rosicchiare [laughs]. Insomma allora non c’era proprio più niente.
EP: Mi racconti un po’ meglio com’era il quartiere, com’era organizzato, come conducevate la vostra vita di ragazzi a quell’epoca.
GD: Allora questa zona qui di Milano, da Precotto arrivava fino a Sesto, era tutti terreni agricoli. I terreni agricoli venivano coltivati da dei contadini che risiedevano a Precotto [unclear] perché c’erano delle famiglie intere che venivano qui al mattino, i cascinotti , venivano a lasciare gli animali, facevano i loro lavori e poi alla sera ripartivano questo su con il cavallo, con le cariole perché c’è sempre un chilometro di percorso eh da qui a Precotto. I terreni erano coltivati dunque innanzitutto c’erano i bachi da seta perché ciascuna famiglia aveva un po’ il reparto apposta per i bachi da seta che rendevano qualche cosa, li portavano a Monza dove c’era il, come si chiama lì, il ricupero dei bachi da seta perché il baco da seta era un insetto un po’ schifosetto ma però eh era produttivo eh difatti in Cina per esempio la seta che ha uno sviluppo mica da ridere. Poi l’altra parte dei terreni erano coltivati a verdure. Infatti mi ricordo che c’erano gli asparagi, addirittura, insalate varie e il venerdì sera venivano raccolte questa frutta nei cesti, venivano lavati nei fossi che erano abbastanza fornito bene perché era l’acqua del Villoresi, sai, il Villoresi che usciva da Sesto e veniva qui da noi, si dischiudeva fino a Precotto. Venivano lavate le verdure e venivano portati il sabato mattina al mercato di via Benedetto Marcello, Via Benedetto Marcelo è abbastanza vicino a noi, e allora col carro portavano e vendevano i loro ortaggi e poi rientravano la sera, era una giornata abbastanza. Poi, momentino, poi molta gente invece lavorava negli stabilimenti che sono qua nei dintorni, tant’è vero che la fermata che c’era qui da noi in fondo alla nostra via la chiamavano l’agraria perche la Breda faceva macchine agricole ai tempi, poi si è messa a fare i cannoni, le macchine per, immagina l’agraria. Per cui tra le varie fermate c’era Sesto San Giovanni, agraria, Villanuova, che era a metà strada, e Precotto. Poi nel, quando hanno cominciato i lavori della metropolitana, ecco questo è un altro particolare, quando hanno iniziato i lavori della metropolitana, che qui in fondo c’era la rimessa della metropolitana, hanno scoperto ancora un paio di bombe che erano inesplose e c’era un maresciallo Bizzarri che si chiamava del genio militare, che era comandato qui a Milano, io l’ho visto personalmente proprio, veniva con una sua camionetta di carabinieri, scendeva con la sua chiave inglese, col petrolio perché lubrificava la parte filacciata, si metteva a cavallo e con la chiave inglese girava, un lavoro pericolosissimo. Non so quante bombe ha disinnescato, probabilmente lo troverete da qualche parte questo maresciallo Bizzarri perché è un personaggio troppo importante. E finiva il suo lavoro e senza prendere nessuna precauzione. Noi eravamo ragazzotti ancora e quella volta lì che era venuto eravamo tutti in giro a vedere. Imprudenza, eh, perchè successivamente i lavori che hanno fatto successivamente di disinnesco, adesso chilometri e chilometri li lasciavano completamente liberi eh. Era pericolo.
EP: E il gruppo di voi ragazzi, eravate compagni di scuola dell’istituto geometri e ragionieri?
GD: Beh qualcuno sì. Sì ma erano gli operai figli di contadini no. A parte che noi eravamo in quattro gatti erano pochi bambini qua, a Percotto c’erano, qui da noi. Le palazzine erano state costruite nel ’28, ’29, ’30 per cui non c’erano grandi famiglie. Ecco stavo dicendo che hanno sviluppato, dai terreni agricoli sono diventati, io ho una cartolina tanto che tu lo scriva, hanno lottizzato e fatto dei terreni fabbricabili tant’è vero che su una cartolina c’è scritto ‘acqua, luce, gas e il tram ogni mezz’ora’. [laughs] Questa, la pubblicità di questa cartolina probabilmente c’è anche sul. Ecco, non, altro non. Ah momento, ecco si’.I ragazzi cosa facevano, andavano al naviglio a fare il bagno ecco, il naviglio era diventato una piscina . Oppure peggio ancora e pericoloso le cave, la cava di Precotto, la cava di Crescenzago venivano utilizzate dai ragazzi, da me in particolare, a fare il bagno ed era pericolo perché l’acqua fredda poteva anche creare qualche malessere, ah. Oppure si andava al Villoresi, ma il Villoresi era molto pericoloso perché aveva una velocità d’acqua abbastanza veloce, il Villoresi. Vediamo se c’è ancora qualcos’altro che, ah ecco. Più che i bombardamenti erano i mitragliamenti. Quasi tutti i giorni dalla fine del ’44 all’inizio del ’45 arrivavano due o tre cacciabombardieri da sud, io li vedevo da casa mia, viravano all’altezza dei campi qui di Precotto e si dirigevano verso le Ferrovie dello Stato e mitragliavano, probabilmente su segnalazione del controspionaggio che c’era. E si direbbe i due piloti, guardi era una cosa incredibile, li vedevi che scendevano d’altra parte non c’era più contraerea, quelli venivano giù tranquillamente e mitragliavano ed ogni tanto si sentivano sbuffare il vapore perche’ le caldaie perforate fatti per dire [unclear], ma guarda un po’, tant’è vero che poi sono stati, della resistenza sono stati fucilati tre ferrovieri che facevano parte dei comitati antifascisti.
EP: E durante i mitragliamenti, voi ragazzi cercavate di stare a guardare o vi mettevate al riparo?
GD: No, ma io e mio padre eravamo un po’ incoscienti restavamo sul terrazzo del, perché li vedevamo [unclear] e poi giravano, perché era un percorso fisso non c’era ecco un momentino il Viale Monza tra l’altro era sbarrato, era chiuso da due muraglioni, uno sulla destra, uno sulla sinistra in modo che i metri che dovevano fare, a parte che c’erano pochi metri, dovevano fare questa esse, questo percorso forzato e lì era di sentinella, c’erano dei militari prevalentemente fascisti erano questi e mi ricordo che una volta mi sembra che su quel, su questo qui c’è scritto, era il due o tre gennaio del ’45, credo, si son messi hann visto che arrivavano questi aerei così bassi, si sono messi di sotto a sparargli sopra quelli cosa hanno fatto? Hanno virato ancora e hanno cominciato a mitragliare Viale Monza, la guerra italiana, ah povero. E il 25 aprile poi è stato l’esplosione finale che è la caccia. Ma io ricordo per esempio che i tedeschi avevano tentato, non si sono arresi ai partigiani e hanno tentato di sfondare verso la Svizzera e infatti su Viale Monza vedevo [unclear] un sacco di mezzi dei tedeschi che andavano poi a un certo momentino hanno fatto marcia indietro e son tornati e sono andati in Piazzale Fiume dove c’era la sede principale della Wehrmacht. Ecco un altro particolare per esempio. In tempo di guerra tutte le filovie di Milano erano sparite, erano state depositate al parco di Monza su dei mattoni, su dei supporti perché le gomme le hanno portate via i tedeschi. Pensate un po’ la guerra cosa faceva. Andavamo a rubare, andavano a rubare le ruote delle filovie di Milano per usarle su. Ah rubavano anche le biciclette i tedeschi, eh, intendiamoci. Ultimamente erano abbastanza accaniti contro di noi. Forse avevano anche ragione perché noi li abbiamo traditi eh, i Tedeschi, proprio uguale..
EP: Io vorrei tornare un momento alla, a quando eravate a scuola. Prima accennava al fatto che arrivavano a fare propaganda a scuola.
GD: Sì, sì sì.
EP:Con che modalità cercavano di, insomma ?
GD: Ma io mi ricordo nell’atrio dove ci sono la tromba delle scale no, e c’era lì questo tizio qui vestito da SS. ‘Eh ma dovete se volete partecipare, ah no, volontari vi trattiamo bene’ ci lusingavano un po’ sul mangiare perché c’era poco da mangiare allora e mi ricordo che a un certo momentino nel pieno di questa propaganda qualcuno dall’ultimo piano ha buttato giù volantini antifascisti oh [laughs] lo spaghetto, lo spavento generale e quello si è trovato completamente spiazzato eh, stava facendo propaganda per andare eh, e hanno buttato giù i manifesti. C’è stato indubbiamente qualche testa calda perché il capo era pericoloso eh. Ah poi gli americani dicevano ‘noi bombardiamo perché voi italiani vi dovete ribellare ai tedeschi’ ma come si faceva a ribellare. Chi si faceva. Non avevamo nessuna arma. Mah! E poi quando c’è stato il 25 aprile c’erano, andavano a cercare di prendere beh hanno fermato anche i grossi gerarchi sul ponte di Orla adesso non mi ricordo i nomi quali erano che poi la maggior parte sono stati poi fucilati, eh. Beh, sul Lago Maggiore per esempio, la, credo che sia la famiglia Petacci mi sembra che li abbiano fucilati si buttavano nel lago e venivano presi di mira. E insomma, cose tremende. Eh, insomma. Comunque per carità la guerra.
EP: Quando è scoppiata la guerra, qual’è stato il più grande cambiamento che lei ha potuto vedere, cioè dal momento in cui appunto si discuteva di intervento, non intervento, cosa fare, c’era dibattito all’interno, tra di voi ragazzi magari?
GD: No, non c’era nessun dibattito il 10 giugno del ’40. Non c’era, eravamo tutti inquadrati. Successivamente, allora, sentivamo Radio Londra, sentivamo la Svizzera, quelli si sentiva. Io avevo una piccolo radio a galena che allora e sentivo appunto questi giornali radio che arrivavano dall’estero. Faceva anche piacere sentirli, perché speriamo che finisca [pause]. Mah!
EP: E nel ’44, quando c’è stata appunto la chiamata che c’accennava prima,
GD: Sì.
EP: cosa è successo alla classe, ai compagni di classe?
GD: Eh non lo so perché io poi ho ripreso andare a scuola nel, alla fine di ottobre, ho saltato qualche mese o due mesi. Quando sono andato dal preside che mi sono presentato il quale così così poi mi ha lasciato questa carta bollata e sono riuscito ad entrare. E niente, ci siamo visti, eh allora come va. Come quando per esempio adesso non ricordo esattamente l’anno, c’è stata la campagna contro gli ebrei, ecco. Diceva, ‘allora quest’anno, guardate che il compagno Finzi, il compagno Coen’, nomi tutti ebrei, ‘non saranno più in classe con voi perche sono stati dirottati verso la scuola’. Era una scuola verso il centro di Milano e sapevamo che erano stati invece portati, non portati via ma comunque ma facevano parte di questo gruppo di persone che erano malviste dal fascismo. Anche lì. [pause] Ecco quello che mi ricordo che qualche anno dopo, magari una decina d’anni, sono andato a vedere i miei compagni di scuola quali proprio avevo perso di vista e ho visto che la maggior parte, laureati tra l’altro eh, professor Coen, la Finzi, erano diventate delle personalità perché indubbiamente la cultura di quei ragazzi lì era molto superiore alla nostra, noi eravamo più bambocci.
EP: E sulle leggi razziali, appunto, si diceva qualcosa tra compagni, vi chiedevate che cosa stesse succedendo?
GD: Appunto non sapevamo per casa, non sapevamo che Finzi era ebreo, che Coen era ebreo, non lo sapevamo. Poi dai registri segnati si sapeva che, ma indubbiamente influiva negativamente su di noi ma per quale motivo, se c’era un motivo, uno non si rendeva conto per quale motivo veniva ritirato dalla scuola e portato da un’altra parte. Non è che ti dicessero ‘guardate, li portiamo là perché adesso sono ebrei, sono di religione contraria dalla nostra’. Tant’è vero che bisognava essere, non mi ricordo, si, ariani credo, no, infatti sui nostri documenti ti scrivevano addirittura ‘razza ariana’ [pause]. Che brutte cose.
EP: Riguardo ai rifugi antiaerei
GD [laughs]
EP: [laughs] lei ha avuto esperienza di immagino?
GD: Io ho avuto l’esperienza di Precotto, quando è stata bombardata la scuola. Il rifugio era fatti di puntelli di legno, poi al massimo c’erano delle travi che venivano con dei cunei, rinforzati. Però si direttamente com era successo a Gorla, non servono a niente. C’era qualche rifugio in fondo Via Brera poi lo stavano costruendo, ma è finito la guerra e il rifugio è rimasto ancora lì. Tant’è vero che è stato riutilizzato il ricovero da un mio amico architetto, il quale anzi l’ha comprato e li vendevano gratis e quasi perchè a lungo andare un blocco di cemento non so, due, tre metri di spessore, allora cosa ha fatto quello ha costruito sopra, così maggiore sicurezza [laughs]. Tant’è vero che c’è stata dopo un esplosione in quella casa perché c’era un tizio che caricava gli accendini nel sottoscala, è stata un esplosione, e la casa è rimasta su, fortunatamente. Per esempio anche, al centro di Milano, in Piazza, rifugio di Piazza del Duomo di Milano è stato costruito dalle imprese Morganti, le imprese che ci sono qua dietro, ma probabilmente non è neanche riuscito ad entrare in funzione, credo, bisogna andare a verificare le date. Perché siamo entrati impreparati, inutile fare tante storie. Lo stabilimento c’è la fatto c’è un rifugio anche quello qua dietro in Via Adriano esiste una specie di siluro che scende dove è stata fatta la Esselunga, ecco quello lì è un rifugio antiaereo. Allora devo dire adesso, figuriamoci. Ah sì, il proprietario lì è morto qualche anno fa mi sembra, l’ha tenuto come emblema della sua vita. Per cui non eravamo assolutamente preparati. [pause] Poi la pericolosità dei rifugi antiaerei perché se non c’era lo sbarramento, lo spostamento d’aria fanno crepare tutti quanti che sono dentro, eh. I muri molto sostenuti erano quelli della stazione centrale, perche lì indubbiamente ci sono i muri che sono. [pause] Insomma.
EP: E dentro i rifugi cosa facevate?
GD: Ah niente, c’è chi pregava, chi stava seduto, si portava le candele perché il giorno che manca l’energia elettrica o come frequentemente succedeva [pause]. Non so se c’è qualche altro episodio da raccontare, mah.
EP: Avevate paura?
GD: Eh beh certo ah.
EP: Come facevate per cercare di scongiurare la paura?
GD: Ma io ricordo per esempio che c’erano tutti i campi, come ho detto prima. Gli stessi operai della Marelli quando succedeva l’allarme correvano tutti nei campi si rifugiavano dentro i fossi che asciutti, no. C’era proprio la. Insomma siamo entrati in guerra impreparati [emphasis]. Sì però non vuol dire niente, anche se fossimo stati preparati la guerra è sempre una cosa che [pause] Ha annotato qualcos’altro?
EP: Volevo chiederle se la sua famiglia è stata coinvolta in qualche modo nella guerra. Se ha avuto dei parenti che sono partiti per il fronte.
GD: Beh, Qualcuno sì.
EP: Com’era vissuto in famiglia questo distacco?
GD: Non era qui, perche io sono, mio madre e mio padre, mio padre era di Milano, mia mamma di Agnadello, un paesino vicino appena fuori ,già in provincia di Cremona comunque, dove tra l’altro era la nostra cappella quando saremo morti andremo tutti li. Ma lì avevo avuto, mia mamma aveva avuto innanzitutto un fratello a ventun’anni è morto il giorno dopo la fine della Prima Guerra Mondiale, pensate un po’ che roba. È morto all’ospedale di Chioggia, per ferite riportate. Poi c’era un altro parente che in Russia è sparito, un altro in Libia, anche lì avuto, tra dispersi e morti ce ne sono un po’ da tutte le parti. E poi ci sono quelli che sono morti in Germania, i deportati in Germania. Io avevo una signora, non so se la conosce, la signora Murri, l’avete conosciuta, perché questa signora racconta molto volentieri per quanto perché ha avuto il papà che è stato deportato in Germania ed è morto, è morto là. Deve sentire raccontare quando hanno, sono riusciti ad individuare il treno, i vagoni, perché i vagoni erano piombati, li inseguivano con questi vagoni non so fino a dove sono arrivati, e parlavano attraverso le pareti chiuse di questa gente. Questa è una cosa molto molto interessante. Tra l’altro lo racconta molto volentieri alle scuole, il suo passato molto molto duro. Abita qui vicino tra l’altro.
EP: E riguardo appunto la fine della guerra.
GD: Sì.
EP: Lei si ricorda quando è stato dato l’annuncio che la guerra stava finendo, era finita, che cosa aveva fatto voi?
GD: Eh, beh certo.
EP: Cosa avete fatto voi? Quali emozioni c’erano? Che tipo di reazione c’è stata?
GD: È stata un emozione generale perché la prima volta quando sembrava che l’8 settembre del ’43 fosse finita la guerra perché lì, si era sentito il marescaglio Badoglio, ‘le nostre truppe reagiranno da qualsiasi parte provenga’, ma cosa vuol dire, tu invece di, ti metti li a sparare ai tedeschi, a parte che un è atto non giusto tra l’altro e tutta la gente in mezzo alla strada è finita la guerra, ah bene l’abbiam preso con un sollievo enorme perché. La stessa impressione che ho avuto io quando sono andato in Svizzera a vedere i viali illuminati e qui invece invece l’oscuramento. C’era addirittura un aereo che lo chiamavano Pippo che di notte veniva a mitragliare o a lanciare le bombette le case che erano illuminate, pensate un po’ che roba. Ma non abbiamo mai saputo se erano italiani oppure no, probabilmente erano italiani. Pippo l’avete sentito nominare anche voi? [laughs] E c’erano i fabbricati, i capi fabbricato, ogni zona aveva il proprio capo fabbricato, il quale veniva a dire se il rifugio era a posto, cosa veniva, i rifugi a posto. Sì i puntelli, vabbè. Certo che se la bomba ti arriva lì dentro non c’era niente da fare, non c’era niente.
EP: E cosa pensavate voi ragazzi di chi stava bombardando, all’epoca?
GD: Quello che si pensava. Se eravamo a scuola, cercavamo di uscire senza andare nel rifugio della scuola e incamminarci a piedi per arrivare a casa. Si sentiva proprio il desiderio di raggiungere la propria casa. Perché la casa sembrava che, raggiungendo la casa, basta siamo a posto. Il senso della casa era incredibile [pause].
EP: E ripensare oggi a quegli eventi, ripensare a chi bombardava, alle, diciamo, vicessitudini politiche della guerra, che opinione ne ha adesso, a distanza di tempo?
GD: Sui delitti politici, dice?
EP: Sulla situazione che proprio era del periodo di guerra, di chi bombardava, che opinione le è rimasta?
GD: Ah, beh, certo ricordo per esempio tutte le case che venivano bombardate, c’era scritto no, ‘casa distrutta dagli anglo-assassini’, anglo-assassini proprio, ma a caratteri cubitali. E però siamo noi che li abbiamo provocati, eh. [pause] Poi le informazioni non è che giravano come adesso, adesso l’informazione se succede un fatto, , non so, Porta Ticinese, si sa subito, allora si sapeva, mah sembra che abbia fatto, aveva bombardato, non so, una certa zona di Milano. Comunque abbiamo fatto cinque anni infiniti, noi abbiamo passato la nostra gioventù in tempo di guerra. Tra l’altro bisognava stare attenti a chi uscire di sera, non si poteva, c’era il coprifuoco. Ci si muoveva tutto così di nascosto, io avevo un amico qui al confine con Sesto e uscivamo di sera di nascosto, cercando di non farsi vedere da nessuno perché c’era sempre il pericolo di trovarsi o arrestato o pigliare qualche pallottata, qualche pallottola di arma da fuoco. [pause] Qualche, io ho sentito qualche, avevamo un inquilino che era reduce dalla Russia, anche lì è stata una cosa tremenda, a piedi, non so quanti chilometri, facevano tra i tutti, tutti quanti cercavano di arrivare in Italia. Un’altra sensazione quando sono arrivati i prigionieri dalla Germania per esempio. Sono arrivati i prigionieri, [pause] la gente che non si sapeva, allora c’era la corrsispondenza erano distribuiti ai militari dicevano ‘oh è arrivata posta oggi’, tutto, la, cartoline no. E io mi ricordo la corrispondenza con mio cugino che era in Iugoslavia, ecco anche lì, che poi ti sparavano, anche di là ti sparavano, mo’ [pause]
EP: Va bene, Signor Dell’Era, io la ringrazio moltissimo del contributo.
GD: Se c’è ancora qualcos’altro ma non, penso proprio di no. [pause] Certo che a pensare la guerra è la cosa peggiore che possa mettere al mondo un uomo, un politico, oh, per carità, lasciamo stare. Ma il fascismo si era comportato bene fino alla fine della guerra. Noi eravamo inquadrati, facevamo i Balilla, facevamo gli Avanguardisti, facevamo, c’era disciplina, ordine, c’era amor di patria , tutto quanto, in apparenza almeno. [pause] Nella nostra zona abitava, ha abitato, oh madonna come si chiama quello lì, Bertinotti, abitava nella via vicino a noi, come si chiama. Poi c’è stato fino alla guerra, c’era Vanoni che era venuto qui a fare una visita a Precotto, non so per quale motivo e giocava, e ha giocato a carte, a carte che non si poteva neanche, in una osteria di Precotto, e lì è stato, non so forse l’ha preso Scala nel suo, ci deve essere, non avevo Vanoni, che gioca a carte, che non si poteva. Invece, Io invece ero a scuola invece con Cossutta, ecco anche lì la [unclear] della gente. Cossutta era un fascistello eh. Quando andava a scuola allo Zucchi di Monza, teneva concerto, teneva il filo lui, ah che, aveva gli stivaletti scuri, perché faceva parte dei piccoli gerarchi fascisti. Poi cos’ha fatto, ribaltato, è diventato il più grande comunista d’italia, anche lì. E’ morto poco tempo fa. La metamorfosi della gente. I politici fanno presto a cambiare idea, eh, e’ difficile che siano coerenti tra di loro.
Allora di questo libro qui posso darglielo, va bene? Questo è importante. Qui c’è tutto eh, c’è scritto tutto di equipaggi, tipo di aereo, la formazione, la provenienza, per cui.
EP: Grazie mille.
GD: Niente.
EP: Grazie dei preziosi materiali e della sua testimonianza.
GD: Eh no, se posso essere utile, qualcosa.
EP: Lo sa. Grazie.
GD: Niente, di niente.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Guido Dell’Era
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Dell’Era recollects daily life in wartime Milan, stressing inadequate war preparation. Describes a disciplined, regimented society which later turned to disillusionment. Recollects the declaration of war, the fall of the fascist regime and the end of the conflict. Contrasts with the situation in Switzerland, emphasising the lack of wartime black-out precautions there. Describes the 20 October 1944 bombing, its effects on the Gorla and Precotto primary schools, and his own role in the subsequent memorialisation of the event. Stresses the ineffectiveness of anti-aircraft fire, the different shelters and what life was like inside them. Mentions the impact of racial laws on his schoolmates. Recalls memories of Italian military internees in Germany. Describes wartime life: execution of partisans, pastimes of children, strafing of marshalling yards, antifascist propaganda, SS recruitment, graffiti on bombed buildings, bomb disposal units, Pippo, and curfew. Mentions fascists who changed camp after the war ended and became active public figures in other political parties. Describes briefly his post-war life working for oil and mining companies.
Creator
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Erica Picco
Date
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2017-02-25
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:50:44 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Switzerland--Zurich
Italy
Switzerland
Temporal Coverage
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1944-08-10
1943-09-08
Identifier
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ADell'EraG170225
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
animal
anti-aircraft fire
anti-Semitism
bomb disposal
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Pippo
propaganda
strafing
Waffen-SS
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/73/735/PDiBlasG1602.1.jpg
f2414e632246c9f7804f01873798dcee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/73/735/ABollettiI-diBlasG160826.2.mp3
cc854a6c54672a088ba0e178dfcc0cbe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Di Blas, Guido and Bolletti, Ilario
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of a dual oral history interview with Guido Di Blas and Ilario Bolletti who recollects their wartime experiences in Monfalcone and surrounding areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Bolletti, I
diBlas, G
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PC: Sono Pietro Comisso e sto per intervistare Di Blas Guido e Bolletti Ilario, per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center. Siamo a Monfalcone, è il 26 8 2016. Grazie Ilario e Guido per aver permesso questa intervista. Prima di cominciare vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata come desidera. Ilario, è d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso dall’Università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’Università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e infine essere liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi formato per mostre, attività di ricerca, istruzione e come risorsa online?
IB: Va bene.
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
IB: Va bene.
PC: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato per l’Archivio Digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center?
IB: Va bene.
PC: E Guido: è d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso dall’Università di Lincoln?
GDB: Sì, sì.
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
GDB: Sì, sì, sì.
PC: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato?
GDB: Sì, sì.
PC: Bene, possiamo cominciare. Raccontatemi il vostro più vecchio ricordo riguardante i bombardamenti aerei su Monfalcone? Comincia chi vuole, chi preferisce.
IB: Posso parlare?
PC: Prego, prego.
IB: Io ero a vedere di Delfo, non c’ho la data, si era a, ci hanno preso con una, detti di andare a questa festa invece doveva essere un, i fascisti facevano un, sì che era Delfo ma non era solo Delfo, dovevano fare.
GDB: Manifestazione.
IB: Una manifestazione sua, e in quell’epoca è venuto un bombardamento e spessonamento, dove eravamo lì e si scappava dove si poteva e io ho preso un, un legno in testa che sono corso fin a Monfalcone da una zia che aveva una cantina e fin a lì, fin a poi passato il bombardamento, e ho saputo dopo che erano più morti, basta.
PC: Mi diceva di una bambina, mi raccontava.
IB: Sì. Ero con, su un bunker chiuso che non, non era aperto, eravamo lì e era anche un tedesco, e una bambina ferita alla testa con, che dopo ho saputo che è morta [pause] questo tedesco l’ha, è andata a prendere e portarla sotto lì, dopo no ho saputo più niente perché siamo scappati via e così è finita questa cosa qua. Cosa vuoi sapere altro?
PC: Parli pur liberamente di quello che si ricorda, qualsiasi cosa.
IB: Eh. E della guerra che, una volta per esempio i pescatori, mia nonna vendeva pesse in piassa per pre, quando era la mafia del pesse, non poteva venderlo come lo vendi oggi, e veniva spartito mezzo chilo di sardine facendo la fila in mercato, non era come oggi che puoi andar comprare la, il pane con la tessera, tutte quelle cose lì. Ecco, basta. Guido, parla ti!
GDB: Allora, mi ricordo el bombardamento di San Giuseppe nel ’44, quando abitavamo sempre lì su per Borgo San Michele, questa casa popolare con cinquantasei famiglie, io avevo nove anni e mio fratello ne aveva due anni più di me, due anni e mezzo più di me, Mario che adesso è morto, con una gamba poliomelitica, e quando abbiamo sentito tutt’un momento di scoppi tremendi e siamo usciti da casa scappando via, il cielo era illuminato coi bengala come a giorno, un spettacolo che mi è rimasto impresso che no mai dimenticherò, ma una scena apocalittica: le fiamme e i scoppi delle bombe del cantiere, una cosa, una cosa, un bambino di nove anni vede così, mio fratello; allora mia mamma, siamo scappati lungo il canale, l’argine e ‘ndavamo verso il monte verso, verso
IB: ‘Ndo che iera le grotte.
GDB: Dove c’erano le queste nostre grotte, ‘vevamo scavato un paio di grotte lì, per nascondersi; e ‘lora mio fratello e mia madre ‘Forsa Mario corri, corri’, lui non poteva, lui rimaneva dietro e noi, mia mama, ‘na cosa, ‘na cosa tremenda, lui faceva fatica a correre, no, lui aveva undici anni, e insomma siamo arrivati a lì, ma, ma questa scena apocalittica che ho visto io mi rimarà sempre nel, nel mie occhi. Ecco ‘l bombardamento, e poi mi ricordo che era venuto anche mio nono del Friuli di Terzo d’Aquileia, era venuto vedere dopo, l’indomani, anche cos’è succeso, quanti morti, e mi ricordo che siamo ‘ndati in cantiere e nel vecchio teatrino della Marcelliana, io ho sbirciato, mio nonno è andato dentro, era ancora tutte le, i morti messi lungo per terra là erano così, una scena anche da non vedere, ma ho visto dalla porta così, no, e mio nonno è andato a vedere. Ecco, questo è un ricordo brutto. Un altro ricordo è lo scoppio, lo scoppio della galleria, anche quella volta mi sembra fosse stata l’alba, perché abbiamo sentito questo tremendo scoppio, noi abitavamo, ‘vevamo la camera dietro verso la ferrovia, de questo grande caseggiato, case popolare, e io mi sono affacciato alla finestra e ho visto queste fiamme di fuoco che uscivano dalla galleria, no, ma anche di quella scena mi è rimasta una scena tremenda. Un altro [sic] immagine tremenda che mi è rimasta scolpita come, come ragazzo, non a Monfalcone, ma a Terzo d’Aquileia, ‘na stazione dove abitavano i miei nonni materni. A Terzo d’Aquileia io e mio fratello sempre andavamo là per motivi anche di, per mangiare roba non, un po’ di terra così, e avevano lungo la ferrovia da Cervignano a Belvedere, i tedeschi da Cervignano portavano dei vagoni anche, deposito di benzina qualche volta, facevano queste piccole stazioni fuori, no, da Cervignano, ecco, e mi è capitato che io e mio fratello ecco, anche in estate, l’estate del ’44, anche questo fatto qui, sono una squadriglia di caccia inglesi Spitfire, quelli che, veloci.
IB: Mitragliaven, cacciabombardieri.
GDB: Ecco e son capitati io, io, sulla ferrovia che raccoglieva, c’era un piccolo fosso dall’altra lato, tre binari, e io ero in mezzo lì, e un operaio che lavorava nella ferrovia, e son capitati questi caccia in picchiata, e io ho visto il pilota con gli occhiali, no, che venivano giù in picchiata e mitragliava e lanciava queste bombe, 500 libbre mi sembra che erano, o 1000 libbre, e una è rimasta anche inesplosa che l’ho vista, e son cadute nel campo di mio nonno, vicino lì, che ha fatto queste buche. Ecco io mi domando perché, vedere noi, due bambini lì, questi piloti inglesi accanirsi a mitragliare. Ma cosa mitragliavano? Io ho visto il pilota sa’, gli Spitfire e [makes a wooshing sound]
IB: Eh ma la guerra era guerra.
GDB: Tremendo, tremendo! [emphasis] Sono quelle scene che adesso io immagino chi va coi bambini che vedono la guerra, oggigiorno, capisco cosa vuol dire. E prima di questo era successo sempre lì, ‘na notte, il famoso Pippo, ha sentito parlare di Pippo?
IB: Sì, sì.
GDB: Il bimotore che girava.
IB: Iera qua.
GDB: Io dormivo nella camera e ha lanciato sempre sulla stazione un paio, due bombe che sono esplose, che la camera, i vetri son saltati, [emphasis] ma un spavento, un spavento impressionante, ecco. Son quelle cose che non vanno via, che son, colpiscono e ti rendono la vita, capisci ‘desso cosa vuol dire quanta fatica questi bambini per arrivare adulti quante prove che la vita ci provoca, no.
IB: Quel del treno blindato.
GDB: E poi anche a casa mia, non era a casa mia mama.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Subito verso, verso la fine de la guera.
IB: [unclear] La fine de la guera, no, i giorni prima.
GDB: No, è passato un treno blindato, sempre una ferrovia lì, dalla rotta.
IB: I gà sparà verso de noi.
GDB: Ecco, e ha mitragliato anche la nostra casa lì.
IB: Sì, sì!
GDB: Hanno forato il muro.
IB: Mi, mi un scuro caduto giù e lui ha cacciato tutto dentro e ha preso il contatore de l’acqua.
GDB: De l’acqua.
IB: E l’è esploso nell’attacco fuori [unclear].
GDB: Il treno blindato che è passato è andato via fuori da lì, no. Poi altri ricordi, dei flash, le dico solo dei flash della mia, siccome che lì dov’è l’ospedale adesso c’erano sei, otto, batterie antiaeree tedesche erano lì.
IB: Sì, lì che sé l’ospedal.
GDB: E lì, ecco, lì.
IB: Sì. I gà tirà lì quei li, lui iera via, ier ‘ndati i sfolati lori.
GDB: In Friuli, ma ogni tanto venivo giù.
IB: E invece noi siamo stati lì noi, no gavemo né parenti né niente.
GDB: E quegli anni là, quando passavano ma centinaia di aerei, i B-29, formazione che ‘ndavano a bombardare in Germania, erano alti.
IB: I gà tirà giorno e notte.
GDB: E lori tiravano queste nuvolette, [mimics anti-aircraf fire].
IB: I ultimi tempi proprio.
GDB: Cadevano giù le schegge anche là da noi lì.
IB: Iera proprio i [unclear].
GDB: Ma ecco, anche quei lì, quante fortezze volanti che son passate là, e una volta una è stata colpita.
IB: Sì, e i paracadutisti i sé cascadi qua, no i sé ‘rivadi [unclear].
GDB: Un aereo tentava di atterrare là dei partigiani.
IB: [unclear] L’ha cercà ‘ndar là dei partigiani. Invece no i ga arivai, li gà ciapadi i tedeschi e i fassisti.
GDB: I mitragliava, mitragliava.
IB: I fassisti che iera coi tedeschi, no, parché dopo.
GDB: I repubblichini.
IB: Sì, i repu, i repubblicani. E iera un prete che ga ciapà, iera anche un nero, che noi no lo gavemo mai visto un nero, no.
GDB: Ecco quei ricordi, quei ricordi, sì, de, che dopo altre c, altre cose lì, era un misto, sempre [unclear], al paese di mio nonno, sempre verso la fine dela guera, che i tedeschi prima di fuggire son passati di San Martino, no, ‘l paese di San Martino, dopo Terzo lì, e lì son stati attaccati, hanno ‘vuto un attacco, lì qualcosa, gli hanno sparato, e loro per rappresaglia hanno tirato su un, anche ragazzi de sedici anni.
IB: Era un treno blindato lì?
GDB: No no, lì li hanno presi per queste, e li hanno fatto rappresaglia e li hanno portati sul fiume, l’argine, andando a Terzo si vede ancora la lapide, e li hanno uccisi lì, ecco. E io ho visto passare, dopo, l’indomani, su un carro coperto col fieno, e li portavano verso il cimitero queste salme mon, sul carro, ecco. Vedi, quelle scene così.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Ecco. Tutto questo da bambino, da bambino, ecco. Altre cose Ilario?
IB: Ehh no so.
PC: Ho la domanda per Ilario: si ricorda un po’ com’è stato questo spettacolo del mago Delfo? Che ne ho sentito parlare, mi interessa saperlo questo.
IB: Sì, sì sì, semo ‘ndai là ma no go mio rivudo a vedere gnente, parché sé vignuo subito, semo scampadi via mi con me fradel, g’avevo un fradel più piccolo che sé morto [background noise], e semo scampadi via subito parché bombe, roba, de tut no sé stae niente.
GDB: In mezo al bombardamento.
IB: Ierimo ‘ndadi là con quela de veder, e ierimo tutti muli l’è, za dodici, tredici anni, quattordici anni, credemo che sia chissà cossa.
PC: Guido, prima me parlava de, dela galleria-rigufio; la me racconti quello che succedeva dentro la galleria-rifugio.
GDB: Ehh, tutti, tutti quei che abitavamo non la galleria grande, quelle piccole che ‘vemo noi, quelli de l’accasamento cinquantasei famiglie, che ‘raamo lì e ‘ndavamo su queste piccole.
IB: Quando che iera la guera e sonava l’allarme se scappava, sì.
GDB: E allora lì, una aveva vicina, perché un vecchio, un signore che ‘veva fatto la guerra del ’15-’18.
IB: Sì la g’emo scavada noi sotto.
GDB: Ha detto ‘Qui dev’esser una’, e c’era una grande busata sotto lì, e abbiamo, era pulita e ‘nsomma era la più vicina che era lì ‘nsomma, no, era abbastanza lunga come da qua a là, no Ilario, così lunga iera.
IB: Ehhla iera bela e granda, iera due entrate, cussì, no.
GDB: Perché sotto l’Austria, fatte sotto l’Austria quelle lì.
IB: Sì, iera dela guera del ’15-’18, lu ‘l se ga ricordà che iera sotto lì e g’amo scavà, parché lì vicin iera anche la cusìna, se ricorde che iera quel calabusata là, quando che sogaimo lì che iera.
GDB: Sì, sì, sì.
IB: Parché iera in tera.
GDB: E dopo ‘l nostro, dighe come che te faseimo risolver ‘l problema della fame, ‘ndaimo in cerca de pani.
IB: ‘Ndaimo a balini, ‘ndaimo.
GDB: Schegge, balini, su per i monti, purtroppo la nostra infanzia è vissuta in mezzo a tanti pericoli, ecco.
IB: Tanta miseria.
PC: Te me parlavi de questa foto qua che, recuperavisi le muizioni epoi ‘ndavisi a vender.
IB: Sì, sì.
PC: Conteme de questa.
IB: Ah ecco, poi, ‘pena finì la guera qua metevimo, una sotto cussì e meteimo la, la granata di là, qua [unclear] cussì, e qua la vigniva zo coi ditti neri [laugh], parché la granata che iera davanti, no, [unclear].
GDB: [unclear].
IB: Iera da drìo, no, meteva tal canon e i la tirava, no, e meteimo una cussì e la, e la ve dopo andavimo a scola e vendeimo la balistite, ghe disemo ‘Pol impisar al fogo’, invesse i feva.
GDB: Sa cosa facevo lui a Checco, coi vasi del Sidol, c’erano gli spaghetti, i famosi spaghetti là, li metteva dentro e dopo gli dava fuoco co’ la miccia e li lanciava, abbiamo inventato i missili, vai là, li lanciavo [makes whoosing sound], spettacolo, ai ai ai, sempre in pericolo lui, lui scop, dighe co’ te scoppiavi.
IB: No ma quan, no iero mi, poi ga fat lori ma mi no saveo niente, i g’aveva mes un, un tubo, carico de balistite, ma i ga sbaglià, i ga mes fulminante, no, e invece de scoppiar pian.
GDB: Metter la miccia?
IB: L’è soppià subito.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Mi come che ‘ndavo fora ‘vevo giusto la man fora.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Un mese de ospedal ho fatto, ma i te tignìa.
GDB: E poi cosa si faceva anche, Iaio ? Quando io ‘ndavo a pescar el pesse sul canal.
IB: Cu l’eletrico, butaimo su che sé l’alta tension, e gaveimo i fili che i tedeschi gaveva lassà.
GDB: Dei rodoli.
IB: Dei telefoni, no, telefonici, e mettemo ‘na ncorretta e tiraimo su oltre, e dopo tiraimo il filo e restava ciapà.
GDB: Sull’alta tension tra l’altro.
IB: Sì ma alta tension, e tal canal cu la voliga.
GDB: Una voliga, poi i pessi.
IB: Poi i pessi, vigniva, poi insomma, l’è restà morteggià, e ne trovo su.
GDB: E lù che ‘l me fa [unclear] [laughs].
IB: No [laughs], che mona, al sé ‘nda par cior el pesse, no, fortuna che ghe go tirà.
GDB: Ciapà ‘na scarica eletrica.
IB: No, ghe go tirà via el filo, al se ga distacà, i la gà risparmiada perché, bagnada e quela corente là, no iera a ven, a duecento.
GDB: Lungo il canale dell’ospedale lì, no, fino a Ponte Bianco, là così, tutta ‘na percorso di fili, alta tensione, e loro, un gruppo di giovani nuotavano su in alto [unclear].
IB: E una volta i tedeschi i se ha ribaltà, parché lì i muli, sa, i ‘ndav co’ sti gommoni no
[background noise]
PC: Tornando sempre al discorso della galleria-rifugio, che me disessi, voi me g’avè dito che sé stadi dentro due o tre volte durante la guerra proprio.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Quando l’era l’allarme, l’allarme.
IB: Sì.
PC: Ve ricordé cosa faseva le persone che iera dentro, proprio fisicamente dentro nella galleria?
IB: Eh i stava lì, i spettava, perché tante volte vigniva il bombardamento, tante volte no, ma l’allarme sonava e dopo sonava el cessato allarme.
GDB: L’alarme e il cessato alarme, sì sonava.
PC: Perché la domanda che mi me fasso, un momento de grande tension comunque perché no te sa se la casa.
IB: No te sa come che sé, cossa che l’è sta fora, o, quando che te sé dentro là, là te spetave.
GDB: Eh l’era un brusio de rumori, così, certa gente che fiadava, e iera eh, immagini del flash della galleria, sì mi quele quatro volte che ‘ndava, che me trovavo vissin Monfalcon ‘ndavo lì, ma se no ‘ndaimo sempre sul nostro, su le nostre piccole grotte che veimo qua, no, verso lì, ecco.
IB: Sì, se se trovave là te dove corer dove che iera, siccome che mi g’avevo la nonna che vendeva pesse in piassa sercavo de ‘ndar a ciapar un do pessi; i sé restadi anca schisadi un due.
PC: Te me racconti de questo fatto?
IB: Parché iera dei, i meteva dele trave, perciò che no posse un andar davanti dei altri, no, e la fila iera cussi’, pien de gente, no, pa’ ‘ndar a cior al pesse, e quel pesse che iera fin a col iera dava un po’ par’omo, e i ne dava fora cussì, iera l’ammasso per il pesse, no, i doveva portarlo tutti là, e dopo i ghe dava quel che ghe lo pagò, come che i ghe lo pagava, ma la gente ‘lmeno magnava.
PC: Perché lei la me ga contado anche che nella galleria-rifugio sé stada gente che se ga schisado durante un’allarme.
IB: Sì, sì, ma no iero là eh, noi staimo qua ma, dopo il gorno, quando che te sa subito, no, che i sé stai morti, par scampar dentro, iera ‘l bombardamento, parché se sé l’allarme ti va dentro pian, ma se sé bombardamento chi pol più, pianse meno, no i se, e par ‘ndar dentro sull’imbocco i se ga copà, che dev’esse’ ‘na brutta roba.
PC: Sì, sì, sì g’avemo trovado.
IB: Ma no so quanti, no me ricordo.
GDB: Dighe, dighe quando che i vigniva i tedeschi a far rastrellamento in casa mia, anche lì.
IB: I vigniva spesso perché iera tanti giovani che.
GDB: Partigiani.
IB: Tutti ‘ndadi coi partigiani, di fatti coi dovea sal, far saltar al ponte là, iera stadi i nostri de qua, del casamento lì, parché iera Renso, Santo; e una volta i sé vignui far rastrellamento e lu ‘l sé corso a casa San, Renso Bevilacqua, dopo i sé.
GDB: Tanti i ‘ndava sotto, sotto sui casamenti, sotto, te ricorditu?
IB: Sì, sotto de un casamento g’avemo,.
GDB: Fondamenta.
IB: Quando che iera rastrellamenti, quei che i era a casa, parché se no i li portava in Germania, i scampava sotto in cantina, ma iera la cantina bassa cussì.
GDB: Iera una portisela.
IB: Iera una portela e i ‘ndava dentro, e i ‘ndava in fondo là, e g’avea fat par fin a, serà che i ‘ndava anca de sora da sotto; per esempio Lino,.
GDB: Sì, sì.
IB: Lino proprio quel che sé morto lo, alla.
PC: A Ornella.
IB: Sì a Ornella, al g’avea fat sotto.
GDB: Una botola, sì.
IB: Sotto, sotto.
GDB: La casa.
IB: La casa, quando iera i rastrellamenti i ‘ndava sotto, gavav ‘l cappello.
GDB: Ecco, tutte robe.
IB: Ehh.
PC: E quindi per finire il discorso della galleria-rifugio, dopo sé stada questa famosa esplosion.
IB: Sì.
PC: Racconteme cosa che sé successo, se conosseve.
IB: Ehh i ‘ndava dentro par cior sti bossoli de otton, e i sé ‘ndadi dentro, i era dentro cu’ le candele, cun roba cussì e sé sta, sfilse, iera batterie, roba cussì, no sarìa sta quel che l’è vignù.
GDB: So che i ‘ndava, i sé’ndai più de ‘na volta dentro là.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Che i ghe ‘ndava [unclear].
IB: Ehh i g’aveva ferai, de nume, de roba, o che se ga rot qualcossa, parché nissun no sa, parché no sé sta, quei che i iera fora no ga rivà.
GDB: Perché ‘l cugin de tuo papà doveva esser responsabile.
IB: Sì, parché ‘l cugin de mio papà iera una guardia comunale, e lu no’l doveva lassa ‘ndar dentro ma, par la pecunia.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Sé sta cussì, quei anni iera altri anni, de miserie, i g’veva fioi.
PC: E che voi ricordé anca alcuni nomi de queste persone, magari.
GDB: Due mi conossevo: quel lì de Ornella, Lino.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Che abitavimo assieme lì.
IB: E mi quel puntignì (?).
GDB: E quel Bolletti lì, che sé, sé la fìa ancora qua, che l’è infermiera [unclear].
IB: Sì, do casa qua, proprio qua da drìo.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Una, una sorella sé morta, una sé viva, le iera tre, e quella muta.
GDB: Ecco, però, però, sì, mi no, mi no me lo ricordo quel Bolletti lì, nome lo ricordo.
IB: Ma anca mi.
GDB: [unclear] i ga lassà tutto.
IB: Sì, so moglie, sì che somo sempre, ierimo insieme. Anca quei iera vignui qua, no zera stai caquella volta?
GDB: Dopo, dopo, sì; mi, mi son de origine proprio monfalconesi, e noi, che noi staimo al baracche (?) de [unclear].
IB: Mi go i miei bisnonni tutti morti qua.
GDB: Dopo sé baracche(?) de [unclear], che iera vissin l’ospedal vecio, dove poi.
IB: ‘Pena finia la guera, ussio da me mama (?).
GDB: Dopo che sé tornadi indrìo tutti i profughi, i ha delle baracche fatte, no.
IB: Sì le baracche [unclear] staimo tutti e due.
PC: De là del canal iera?
GDB: Verso Via Buonarrotti.
PC: Mmmm.
IB: La Via Buonarrotti, là che iera l’ospedal vecio, vicin.
GDB: L’Ostaria del Placido, i carboneri iera.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Ecco, e dopo de lì, noi del ’38 semo ‘ndai a abitar.
IB: Lì.
GDB: Su sto palazzo grande ‘ga fatto in memoria del Duce. Mi no go conossuo mio nonno paterno, mio nonno paterno iera Capo della Finanza sotto l’Austria, Giuseppe se ciamava.
IB: E invesse.
GDB:... e iera, i ga dito, i ‘veva le caserme [unclear], però i zera pochi finanzieri, pochi finanzieri, e chi [unclear].
IB: E invece mi.
GDB: La giurisdizione le stada fin a Pieris di Turiacco.
IB: Me bisnonno Facchinetti, no, al iera a caccia con Francesco Giuseppe.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Parché lori i stava a in Sdobba.
GDB: Ah ecco.
IB: I stava a Grado, i Facchinetti i è de Grado, me nonna iera Facchinetti, e la me contava de so papà mia nonna.
GDB: E mi,e so bepi sul, ‘l beche pescador là ‘l me contava de mio nono, che mi no l’ho conssuo mio nonno, iera in Afghanistan, no.
IB: Sì, sì, ma anca mi quel.
GDB: Alora ‘l passava.
IB: To nono me contava me papà.
GDB: Lungo el canal Valentinis, che era gente che la ‘ndava a pescar o tognar là, e lui ghe diseva ‘No, no se pol star qua, dové ‘ndar lavorar’, perché iera tante fabbrichette a Monfalcon, e i ‘ndava là, ‘ndava a lavo, lavorar, i li mandava a lavorar sotto l’Austria.
IB: So nono ‘l iera de Grado, fin a Duin ‘l g’era.
GDB: Sì, sì, ‘veva un bel.
IB: Tocco de, de vardar insomma.
GDB: E dopo se.
IB: In quei anni, ma era prima dela guera.
GDB: E dopo mi g’vevo dei zii, che no go cono, qualchidun zia no go conossù, e l’era anca [unclear]
IB: Sì, ma to bisnona la iera lì cun ti.
GDB: Le cose che mi ricordo di mia nona, che mi con mia nona, nel ’42, quei anni lì, andaimo, ela no la podeva caminar, ‘ndaimo co’ la carrozza ongi mese a cior la pension de l’Austria in Banca d’Italia, se ‘ndava, quei anni lì; e perché poi mandava ben l’Austria, pagava ben i suoi ex, no.
PC: Mi g’avesse ancora una domanda per lei, Guido, [background noise] come la se sente a esser stado bersaglio de qualchidun?
GDB: Scioccante, sé un trauma che l’è dificile cancelar, perché sé, sé robe, par impossibile che certa gente ga de accanirse magari anche contro dei putei giovani cussì, perché iera una, una stazion così de, de, che fossì sta in piena guera, ma mitragliar, i te vedi sti piloti che i te mitraglia co’ sti, sti.
IB: Ehh iera guera.
GDB: Ma, ma, ma, chi, chi chi.
IB: Lori no i saveva cos’ che iera.
GDB: Eh va ben, ma veder sti piloti co’ sti ociai cussì, che i vignìa zo in picchiata, e queste bocche ‘ tututututu’, e sganciava le bombe lì. Mio nono, che ha fatto un otto, dieci buse perché confinava con la ferrovia, no.
IB: Ma te vedi anche ‘desso.
GDB: Mio nono, co’ la carriola, da solo, i le ga stropade, sa?, mio nono, pian pian, pian pian, pian pian, col badil, sa?, cola pala, ecco, la grande costanza.
IB: Sì ma anca quel sarà [inclear] stropà tut.
GDB: No, no iera le ruspe quel’anno, col tut va a ciapr su che iera, ste bombe, buse de, mi me ricordo, go vue ‘nche, ecco. E i miei nonni quando che s’era in fin i ga dito che, semo rivai casa, che semo toradi de ritorno.
IB: Te sa cos’ che iera.
GDB: I pensava che ierimo tut morti, completamente morti, perché tut quel disastro che iera.
IB: Noi qua a Monfalcon anca semo vissudi un poco rubando il sal alla Solvay, o sui cari, o sui treni, che se saltava sui treni a cior carbon quando che i se fermava qua al semafero, se butava zo carbon o, se iera quei de sal, se ‘ndava su coi sacchetti, se impiniva de sal e dopo te lo vendevi, te ‘ndavi a ciapar pa’ roba, par ciò che i te dai la farina, ai contadini, qua a Monfalcon no iera niente, alora se ‘ndava in Friul, là, cul sal e te vivevi cussì, no.
GDB: Vigniva le navi de sal al porto, e rimaneva sula banchina tanto sal, e i ‘ndeva.
IB: Sì, ma anche, ma noi ‘ndeimo anca de note, de note cu’ me nono, te ghe davi ai fassisti, te ghe davi un do lire,i te lassava ‘ndar dentro, te ‘ndavi in scogliera, te impinivi un sac e te portava un, do, tre sacchi e dopo te li mettea, noi g’eimo i casoni, no, al porto qua, a Porto Rosegai.
GDB: In Friuli ifa bisogno del sal, per copar i maiali.
IB: Sì eh, lori par copar i porchi, una roba o l’altra voleva ‘l sal, iera come l’oro ‘l sal, e lori no i dava roba de magnar.
GDB: Ecco, ora contando ste robe qua, attualmente, anche mi go i nipoti, ne go un de unidici anni, un de sei, ma no ghe interessa niente, no sé più una volta ‘lora disea ‘Fin che quando i noni non raccontano, no, e i giovani non ascoltano.
IB: Cossa seo [unclear].
GDB: Termina tutta la storia, no’, per questo son triste mi anche, vedo mi ormai go quela età che go, no go nessuna ambission de viver, sa? Dopo go anche un fìo disabile che, povero, che ‘l ga cinquantaquatro anni, sa, tanti anni ad accudirlo e a farghe tutto.
IB: Finimo?
GDB: Sì, ‘peta ‘desso che te concludo ‘l mio percorso, Dio, son rivà a questa età qua, che no go nissuna più prospettiva, neanche speranza in un futuro migliore perché vedo che ‘l mondo va, sta andando a rotoli, sa, no sé nissun, nissun, sé ingestibile ‘l mondo ormai, per questo, ecco. E mi ringrazio ‘l signor Pietro Comisso.
PC: Mi ve ringrazio a voi.
GDB: Sì.
PC: Che sé stada una intervista meravigliosa.
GDB: No.
PC: Mi ve ringrazio per la testimonianza e per le tante robe che me g’avé.
GDB: Dei piccoli aneddoti flash, ecco, della vita nostra.
PC: Ve ringrazio infinitamente.
IB: Ti tira fora quel, quel che te par ben.
GDB: Ecco.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Guido Di Blas and Ilario Bolletti
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Projectiles, Aerial
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pietro Commisso
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-26
Contributor
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Marco Dalla Bona
Format
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00:29:08 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Identifier
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ABollettiI-diBlasG160826
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Di Blas and Ilario Bolletti recount wartime memories associated with the town of Monfalcone and the surrounding area. Describes a severe night of bombing stressing the ominous sight of target indicators and loud explosions; recalls the massive loss of life when local children who were gathered to watch a magician's show, found themselves under attack. Recounts the appalling sight of many corpses placed in improvised morgues. Describes local shelters, some being modified First World War structures. Recollects a bomber being shot down and the stir caused by the sight of a black airman; remembers the strafing of a railway station when the aircraft was so close he could clearly see the pilot. Mentions various wartime stories: conscription dodgers trying to escape roundups, reprisals, the ominous presence of "Pippo", and a German armoured train opening fire. Recollects how people tried to get by and circumvent rationing: electrical supply by tapping overhead power lines, pilfering supplies from goods trains, bribing Fascist officers to make them turn a blind eye, trading stolen salt for flour. Describes post-war hardships when they salvaged shell cases and metal splinters for their scrap value, and mentions improvised pyrotechnic devices made with explosives taken from live ammunition. Recalls people injured or killed by improper handling of live shells. Reflects on the legitimacy of attacking non-military targets and the feeling of hopelessness this created. In the photograph, Guido Di Blas is on the left and Ilario Bolletti is on the right.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
shelter
strafing
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/438/7769/PToccacieliG1701.1.jpg
a9e9d5366fe91066a0b8f49b8d4cc729
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/438/7769/AToccacieliG171210.2.mp3
b6c7a5b2341b0666d2685dd1cd5e607b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toccacieli, Guido
Guido Toccacieli
G Toccacieli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Guido Toccacieli who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toccacieli, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare il signor Giulio Toccaceri per l’International Bomber Commande Centre Digital Archive. Siamo a Milano, il giorno 10 dicembre 2012. Grazie signor Guido per aver acconsentito a questa intervista. Come prima domanda,
GT: Dica.
AP: Vorrei chiederle, qual’è il ricordo più antico?
GT: Più antico?
AP: Potrebbe essere qualcosa, un ricordo famigliare. Chi erano i suoi genitori? I suoi fratelli? Dove viveva prima della guerra?
GT: Ah. Vabbè, io sono nato a Bergamo perché mio padre in quel tempo lavorava a un campo d’aviazione di Ponte San Pietro che era il campo della Caproni. Lui era specialista in altimetri e volava con gli Sva, [laughs] ancora, era aerei di molto prima della seconda guerra mondiale, della prima guerra mondiale. Erano gli aerei della prima guerra mondiale. Quindi io sono, fino allora sono stato a Bergamo, fino all’età di cinque anni e qualcosa. Poi arrivato a Milano a sei anni, quindi era il 1935. Io dal ’35 sono, abito a Milano. E fino al trenta, dunque la mia vita cos’è stata? Ragazzino che andavo a scuola fino al fatidico 1940 quando è scoppiata la guerra. Dunque avevo undici anni esatti e facevo la quinta elementare.
AP: Che cosa ricorda di quel giorno?
GT: Della mia vita scolastica?
AP: No, di quando è stata dichiarata la guerra.
GT: Ah, ehm,
AP: Si ricorda dov’era?
GT: Anche sì, ero a Milano, esattamente in Via Ingegnoli che è una zona di, ora dicono Città Studi, era allora una zona vicino a Lambrate, alla stazione di Lambrate e lì è cominciata la, diciamo la vita da, in guerra. Il problema della guerra in quella zona era quello che inizialmente, dunque noi abbiamo subito il primo bombardamento, se a lei questo può interessare, nel ’42. Il primo bombardamento nel ’42, dove, se posso aggiungere, poi [laughs]. La mia nuova moglie che, nuova moglie, moglie da sempre, abitava in una località vicino a me a Piazza Bacone e perse la casa anche lei ma questo io l’ho saputo dopo [laughs] quando ho conosciuto lei da fidanzata. Comunque hanno cominciato lì, il primo bombardamento nel 1942. Ma non penso che fossero, non so se, potevano essere francesi o inglesi in quel momento che c’hanno bombardato, questo non me lo ricordo nel ’42. Se erano già, erano già inglesi che sono arrivati, penso che siano, sì, sì, dovevano essere inglesi e quindi lì abbiamo cominciato ad avere dei morti, no? Nella zona di Milano, nella zona che avevano bombardato, anche perché la nostra zona era particolare. Aveva vicino uno scalo ferroviario, quindi alcune fabbriche abbastanza importanti tra queste l’Innocenti che produceva poi armi per la guerra. E quindi da lì abbiamo incominciato a soffrire e fare la vita di quelli che tutti i momenti, in caso di allarme, si finiva nei rifugi [laughs] che organizzavano naturalmente nelle case allora, erano ponteggi nelle cantine proprio per evitare che questi crolli venissero a discapito nostro, ecco. E questo era la, quello che io conosco, il momento della guerra, dello scoppio della guerra adesso, quindi avevo undici anni però eh, quando è scoppiata la guerra quindi. Quello, il nostro problema maggiore era quello e poi è cominciato il problema, vabbè, della alimentazione, mancanza di cose è stato quello che, è stato il mio inizio, la mia, diciamo, la prima giovinezza diciamo, undici anni, un adolescente che si è trovato così però personalmente non tanto. In seguito poi naturalmente cos’è stato le cose meno, i familiari meno importanti, cioè più complicate furono che mio fratello dovette andare militare. E da quel momento, vabbè era una cosa, non ha fatto la, non è andato in guerra, mio fratello è del 1921 quindi nel ’40 aveva diciannove anni, è andato a fare il servizio militare fino. Dunque nel ’40 quando è successo che il primo armistizio che c’è stato? Nel ’42 mi pare, no, ’44, ‘44. ’43, ecco nel ’43. Sì, nel ’43, dunque, avvenne che mio fratello tornò a casa. Tornato a casa e c’è stato pochissimo tempo perché e lì è cominciata subito la Repubblica Sociale Italiana. Mussolini che era stato poi catturato e liberato da Skorzeny, il famoso tedesco che nel Nido d’Aquila sulla, dov’era? Sul Gran Sasso, ha presente che fosse sul Gran Sasso allora. E da quello è incominciato il problema diciamo del fratello che è scappato, si è richiuso in casa ed era considerato renitente allora. Perché poi la Repubblica Sociale richiamò tutti i militari che avevano lasciato. E un bel giorno, tornando da scuola, ero giovanissimo, facevo le medie allora, tornando da scuola trovai la casa circondata dalle cosidette Brigate Nere che erano state create dal fascismo proprio che era, chiamiamola la polizia politica dei, del momento del regime fascista. Riuscirono a scoprirlo perché c’era stata una, come si dice, una spiata ecco. L’avevano saputo. Io sono arrivato a casa, ho trovato tutta questa cosa, mi hanno fermato ehm, e ho visto mio fratello prendere, caricare su una camionetta e portarlo via. S’immagina il dramma in quel momento nella casa. Quindi siamo arrivati al ’44, ’43. Poi mio fratello fu mandato, ricordo benissimo il tempo di guerra, fu mandato a Carcare. Carcare, Savona, sui colli di Cadibona, sì. Fino a un bel momento quello che era successo fino allora, bombardamenti non ne avevamo poi tanti avuti ehm, fino al ’43. E nel ’43, esatto, cominciarono i bombardamenti, quelli pesanti a Milano fatti dagli americani, penso, o forse dalle forze alleate. E lì subimmo dei bombardamenti molto pesanti. Agosto del ’43 è stato un macello, 15 agosto, 16 agosto a Milano è stato un disastro. Milano è sparita in parte, il centro di Milano in qualche via che non esiste ancora più adesso perché [unclear], è scomparsa e da allora, ecco cosa è successo. Da allora mio fratello riuscì a scappare lo stesso da Carcare e fu nascosto dai miei zii in questo periodo e lì andò bene perché poi non successe più niente. Mentre noi eravamo sfollati in un paesino vicino a Milano in una scuola elementare ed eravamo io, mio, mia sorella, sì, mio padre, mia madre. Mio padre faceva avanti indietro perché lavorava ancora a Milano papà e quindi siamo rimasti là fino a che la guerra è terminata. Ecco, altri episodi che diciamo riguardino me personalmente non ne ho, non ho subito cose. L’unica cosa che posso raccontare è stato bruttissima. Finita la guerra sono arrivati gli americani a Milano e io poi, come tutte le altre persone, siamo andati a vedere quella brutta faccenda di Mussolini impiccato, cioè impiccato, era già ucciso in Piazzale Loreto.
AP: Continui.
GT: Dunque, quella è stata una cosa che ci ha colpito non tanto per, ragazzo cosa avevo, ormai avevo quindici, dunque, ’45, sai [unclear] gli americani a liberarci, ecco quello è stata la causa più, a liberarci, sì, ormai avevano liberato tutta l’Italia, i tedeschi erano scappati. Ah, le cose, il brutto che succedeva allora erano le retate che facevano le Brigate Nere, questi della X Mas mi ricordo che c’era il famoso Osvaldo Valenti che era un attore, allora era molto in voga, e coso. Poi, Ah, ho assistito a, dopo la liberazione, a diverse fucilazioni di cosidetti fascisti di allora, io non potevo conoscere tutte queste cose, ero un po’ fuori dal, di questi fascisti che avevano, non so, li avevano fucilati proprio in mezzo alla strada così cioè. Ragazze rapate, pitturate di rosso sulla testa che camminavano in mezzo a discredito di tutti [laughs] che, ecco, queste cose che la guerra mi ha lasciato dentro. I bombardamenti sì, è la cosa più paurosa anche perché un, devo dire un ragazzo non è che si spaventasse per questo. No, questo no, non ho subito terrore per i bombardamenti, no, non ho provato paura. Ecco questo è quanto posso dire del mio periodo diciamo dal ’40 al ’45, quando è stata la liberazione, insomma.
AP: Mi ha parlato prima di un rifugio.
GT: Sì.
AP: Vuole descrivermelo?
GT: Ah.
AP: Come era fatto?
GT: Il rifugio dove, di casa mia?
AP: Esatto.
GT: Cantina. Cantina, paletti di supporto di legno, basta. Tutto lì. Non c’erano cose particolari. Niente assolutamente. Si andava in cantina sperando che reggesse [laughs]. La casa non era grande d’accordo però e dentro, con le donne che magari pregavano [laughs] come in queste cose e i bombardamenti che arrivavano perché l’allarme arrivava molto spesso. Ah, poi nell’ultimo periodo, prima che finisse la cosa, arrivava un certo Pippo. Era chiamato un aereo che non so di che provenienza fosse, se inglese, francese, americano. Arrivava su Milano, sganciava una bomba e basta, e andava e questo è stato per un po’ di volte. Infatti lo chiamavamo Pippo. ‘Arriva Pippo, arriva Pippo’. Ecco [laughs] questo è un ricordo di quella, del bombardamento.
AP: Si ricorda come la gente viveva
GT: Ah poi, il bombardamento, sì, d’accordo posso aggiungere adesso mano a mano che mi ricordo, l’ultimo quello terribile è stato fatto nella zona di Gorla dove è caduto su una scuola. Sono cadute le bombe su una scuola, hanno fatto molti molti morti per i bambini, questo tra i bambini di scuola proprio. Quelle sono state le cose che hanno colpito di più diciamo il fatto che si bombardasse un po’ così e non certo. Gorla è sempre vicino alla stazione centrale, si può immaginare che magari ci fossero però eravamo già verso la fine della guerra. Non so se è stato il colpo finale che volevano darci per, dare a noi, dare allo stato italiano, a Mussolini soprattutto perché allora eravamo isolati dall’Italia noi eh, siamo stati. I tedeschi avevano preso il potere anche su Milano quindi, c’è la guerra, si era formato il Vallo lì in Toscana, Lazio, cos’era, come si chiamava?
AP: La Linea Gotica?
GT: La Linea Gotica forse sì. No, non era la Linea Gotica, forse eh? Dunque, dunque, era la Linea Gotica, possibile. Montecassino, c’era la Gotica, sì, Gotica [laughs]. Gotica, sì.
AP: Questo mi dà l’opportunità di una domanda.
GT: Sì.
AP: Qual’era la vostra percezione? Lei ha parlato di essere, di sentirsi isolato. Avevate la sensazione che le bombe erano dirette a voi? Allo stato italiano? Ai tedeschi? Come vedevate la cosa allora?
GT: Beh, ma, dunque, no, no, [unclear] lo stato italiano senz’altro. Senz’altro. Eravamo alleati dei tedeschi quindi, sì, sì, vabbè. No, avevamo la sensazione che si creasse proprio il panico, proprio di creare qualcosa tra, che, non so, probabilmente che i civili si ribellassero magari a tutto questo stato di cose. Perché ci bombardavano? Perchè venivano a bombardare le popolazioni? Poi abbiamo saputo pian pianino di cose ancora peggiori perché se pensiamo poi cosa è successo a Dresda [laughs], capisci? Quindi era proprio creare questo stato di, forse di sollevazione contro la guerra, certo, non eravamo certo un alleato comodo nè forte per i tedeschi, e quindi presero in mano il potere loro. Insomma praticamente certamente bombardavano anche noi, ma forse per eliminare, più qualche cosa, togliere diciamo una forza, farci smettere per togliere una forza ai tedeschi.
AP: Vorrei riportarla a quegli anni.
GT: Sì.
AP: Sempre tenendo presente quello che mi ha raccontato adesso.
GT: Sì.
AP: Lei si ricorda conversazioni di adulti a proposito dell’essere bombardati eccetera? Che cosa diceva la gente, ad esempio, in negozio, per strada?
GT: [sighs] Praticamente, no, la gente cominciava ad essere un po’ stufa della guerra, cioè stufa della guerra, non si mangiava eh, questo era il problema, quindi. Ma per un certo momento intendiamoci all’inizio li abbiamo odiati questi bombardamenti perché ci bombardavano. Sì, siamo in guerra, d’accordo però. Quello che ritenevamo forse noi della guerra era farla direttamente sì, ma non, non inserendo le persone, le popolazioni civili in questo coso, forse non era il caso. E l’avevamo chiamato questa era la cosa del terrore, proprio creare un terrore in modo tale che qualcuno si, qualcuno che contava si risvegliasse, somma sai [unclear] è stato, forse è stato quello che poi è successo ma [unclear]. Per cui poi il regime fascista è caduto perché qualcuno si era mosso in quel senso lì o forse perché, forse non aveva visto l’interesse particolare di fare una guerra assieme alla Germania non so, [unclear]. Poi io, sai, io sono sempre vissuto in una famiglia che diciamo. Papà ha avuto sempre delle, delle idee socialiste e quindi eravamo un po’ contro questo, poi accettando tante cose perché devo dire noi siamo stati, all’inizio siamo stati anche abbastanza bene. Ai ragazzi non dispiaceva anche andare a fare le adunate, si divertivano, cioè questo era quello che aveva lasciato un pochettino il regime fascista sulla mentalità delle persone. C’erano, alcune cose insomma, c’erano, erano fatte bene insomma perché difendevano i lavoratori, posto di lavoro, cioè tante cose che avevano, bè, questo era un po’, diciamo il fondo fascista di Mussolini, socialista di Mussolini che poi certamente non è, non è proliferato in quelle cose però è quello. Lo stato però, non eravamo con, all’inizio non eravamo proprio tanto convinti che fosse brutto, è scoppiata, sì la guerra è sempre brutta però, mah, poteva anche starci insomma ecco.
AP: E suo padre.
GT: Io non capivo proprio molto bene quella, non c’era quella comunicazione che c’è adesso, quindi era tutto. Dopo ci siamo accorti che era tutta propaganda quindi abbiamo subito un po’, continuato a subire quello che era, diciamo l’inseminazione data da vari anni di fascismo, dal 1922, e vabbè che non era mica tanto, ’29 sono nato io quindi [laughs].
AP: Suo padre come le ha spiegato la guerra, se gliel’ha spiegata?
GT: [sighs] Mio papà, dunque, la guerra lui non l’ha fatta. Lui era specializzato quindi la prima guerra mondiale papà non l’ha fatta, la ’15-’18 quindi. Lui come specialista ha sempre lavorato nelle aziende che fornivano materiale per la guerra. Quindi la guerra direttamente lui l’ha vissuta attraverso il lavoro che faceva, non è che. Ma all’inizio non, posso dirle che non è che fosse contrario, forse aveva, qualche cosa era rimasto di una educazione socialista quindi non era propenso, però neanche proprio completamente alieno devo dire, questo che un ricordo che possa avere io di papà.
AP: La cosa è cambiata quando sono cadute le prime bombe sui civili?
GT: Eh certo, eh certo, eh certo.
AP: Mi racconti questo passaggio.
GT: Eh, le bombe sui civili proprio hanno cambiato un po’ la mentalità delle persone insomma. Si sono proprio un po’ rivoltate dentro, no, in quello che si sentiva dire, ‘ma questi ci bombardano’. Sì, eh, un certo astio per forza, ci bombardavano loro, non potevamo avere però la colpa, la colpa di che cosa? Nostra che abbiamo fatto la guerra. Nostra che ci siamo, ci siamo messi in questa situazione, eh, questi erano i discorsi che facevano loro. Poi è stato anche poi il dramma che non eravamo, sapevamo di non essere, anche noi ragazzi, di non essere all’altezza. Prima di tutto perché ci si misurava con la capacità, diciamo, di fare la guerra dei tedeschi. Noi non l’avevamo questa capacità. Ehm, visto poi quello che era successo e che avevano riportato dei reduci dalla Grecia disastri, cose, l’organizzazione proprio italiana non fatta proprio, assolutamente una cosa così. E quindi, ma abbiamo cominciato a dire che avevamo sbagliato insomma noi italiani a fare la guerra, ad accettare questa, questa guerra così. La punizione, vabbè forse era troppo forte, i bombardarci e morire, eravamo in guerra, vabbè. Abbiamo detto: ‘E’ così, cosa vuoi, non potevano fare niente’. Dovevamo subire e abbiamo subito.
AP: Provi se, se non le dispiace, a ricordare questo senso di impotenza, l’idea di ricevere bombe dal cielo e non poter fare nulla. Provi a ricordare cosa provava quando era bambino.
GT: Eh, difficile. [pauses] Niente. Per me capitava come una, come una, qualche cosa, una disgrazia che doveva venire, qualche cosa. Un qualcosa che non me la, contro il quale non potevo fare niente dentro di me, non potevo fare niente, non potevo. Ma neanche, però neanche il desiderio di mettermi lì, da ragazzo, con un cannone a sparare agli aerei che scendevano, no, no, no. Però un po’ effettivamente bisogna dire una cosa, siccome questi bombardamenti all’inizio quegli inglesi noi li odiavamo un po’ questi inglesi, eh, pensavamo che fossero un pochettino. Non sapevamo cosa poi succedeva quindi questo poi, questo è un paragone che si, non si può fare perché dopo l’abbiamo visto e quindi dopo ci hanno aperto le cose. Non sapevamo cosa subivano gli inglesi, gli inglesi a Londra con le bombe che, Hitler mandava le V2. Eh, potevamo dire, però è una rivalsa contro quello che, ma non c’era, non c’era, non c’era una volontà politica che, aiutasse a pensare una cosa piuttosto che l’altra, eravamo un po’ allo sbando insomma, non eravamo vabbè, subivamo un po’ questo, del partito, queste cose che ti tenevano un pochettino proprio al di fuori di tutte queste cose. Odiavano questo, quello, bisogna odiarli, sì, famoso manifesto, il nemico ti ascolta [laughs], famoso manifesto, grandioso che faceva. Ridevamo perché dicevamo, la lana Churchill si ritira, dicevamo, la lana Churchill perché si ritira, taci il nemico ti ascolta, avevamo dentro tutte queste cose che venivano dalla preparazione che aveva fatto il partito fascista sul popolo italiano. Quindi abbiamo un po’ fatto fatica proprio a uscire fuori dalla cosa. La guerra all’inizio sì, vabbè c’è la guerra, è inevitabile, dicevano. A un ragazzo però, sapere cos’era la guerra, era stata un po’, era un po’ una cosa, non facile da, sì, da accettare sì forse, forse un gioco più grande di noi o forse volevamo partecipare [laughs], da ragazzi, sa, non è semplice, non eravamo adulti capaci di interpretare tutte queste cose che poi sono successe. Molto difficile.
AP: A proposito dell’interpretazione.
GT: Sì.
AP: Mi ha accennato ai bombardamenti dell’agosto 1943.
GT: ‘43, 15 e 16 agosto.
AP: Vuole raccontarmi qualche cosa di più?
GT: Vediamo.
AP: Provi a tornare a quegli anni, a quei mesi.
GT: ’43, sì fino allora non avevamo subito delle grandi cose a Milano, onestamente. Bombardamento che ci ricordavamo di più era quello di, era dell’inizio della guerra nel ’42. Ppi bombardamenti veri e propri non ne abbiamo avuti a raffica come sono venuti lì con questi enormi aerei che arrivavano a onde [makes a droning noise] e forse no. Sono stati i primi che hanno proprio creato proprio un panico assoluto nella gente che c’era. Proprio è stato, sono stati quelli del ’43. Milano ricorda solo, sì del ’43.
AP: Si ricorda le sue emozioni? Che cosa provava lei?
GT: Gliel’ho detto,
AP: Estate, estate del ’43.
GT: Non paura, chissà perché, personalmente come, non ho provato paura.
AP: Le altre persone attorno a lei, della sua famiglia?
GT: Certo, evidentemente, sì, certo. Vabbè, c’erano, [laughs], erano prese, erano preoccupate per i figli tant’è vero che c’è stata il famoso esodo da Milano, tutti cercavano di andarsene via. Ma sì, un paio di notti siamo andati a dormire nei prati perché bombardavano, sapevamo ehm. No paura non ne ho provato, paura vedendo gli altri che avevano paura, a me sembrava che avessero troppa paura. Però non ho provato nè paura nè, neanche senso di odio, sì, bombardavano e vabbè, è la guerra. Ecco, c’era una certa fatalità nel pensare quelle cose lì, una certa fatalità, infatti non ho riportato nessun trauma del fatto di aver fatto, il trauma che si poteva riportare. Ricordare la fame, ma sì, la ricordo ma non è neanche diciamo una causa di queste cose, non è neanche una cosa. Io personalmente non ho portato dei traumi per queste cose.
AP: Mi ha parlato di Gorla prima. Gorla.
GT: Gorla, sì, sì.
AP: La bomba sulla scuola.
GT: Questo ci ha fatto male, sì.
AP: Si ricorda qualcosa all’epoca? Come è stata annunciata?
GT: Niente, dunque, era stata annunciata che, niente, un bombardamento è avvenuto, hanno buttato giù, no, una solita cosa, hanno fatto un raid, no, come si chiama, aereo ha colpito Gorla. Presumo che dovessero colpire la stazione centrale, ecco, questo lo dico io .Abbiamo tutti pensato che la zona, essendo la stazione centrale un certo posto di smistamento per truppe cose, penso non sia stato un bombardamento però tipo, come si dice, come ho detto, annunciato prima tipo terroristico [emphasises] ecco, no, eravamo già un po’ più verso la fine di questo [unclear]. Io la ritengo, non so, un errore proprio grave di, o forse un ultimo rigurgito. Eh beh ma una bomba poteva capitare, poteva spostarsi di cinquecento metri. Non penso che fosse stato un obiettivo ecco, è caduta ma però Gorla come dico era stata la stazione centrale ecco [laughs] perciò c’era un obiettivo. Come le bombe che sono cadute nella mia zona l’obiettivo c’era, c’era lo smistamento di Lambrate quindi era un nodo ferroviario.
AP: Mi ha parlato prima della Innocenti.
GT: Sì, c’era la Innocenti lì eh. Quindi, lo smistamento, venivano fuori le armi dall’Innocenti e subito partivano con lo smistamento ferroviario.
AP: Quindi.
GT: Ecco, una cosa che non abbiamo, che ho dimenticato, ecco questo. Qualche, c’è stato un momento, adesso l’anno però eravamo già un po’ più avanti, dal 40, i mitragliamenti ai treni.
AP: Me ne parli.
GT: Ecco, questa è stata [unclear] quindi proprio c’era una perché i treni erano, in quel momento non c’erano, non treni militari, erano treni civili e questi caccia che arrivavano, non so se fossero americani, inglesi, non, mitragliavano i treni. Questo è stato proprio brutto perché queste cose le ho riviste magari in tanti film dove si vede che mitragliano proprio i treni e la gente scappa fuori. Questo è stata una cosa, ecco, quello lì. Ecco, c’erano questi contrasti che, non capivo quelle cose lì proprio per creare terrore soprattutto, eh, guardi, che hanno mitragliavano i treni. Non erano convogli militari quelli che ho conosciuto, quelli ho saputo io quindi.
AP: Se dovesse spiegarmi la differenza tra mitragliare un treno e bombardare, come la spiegherebbe?
GT: Dunque, la spiegazione che posso dare oggi. Bombardare, bombardare, mitragliare un treno dipende: è un obiettivo militare o mitragliare un treno così solo per mitragliare un treno, pensando che. Bombardare obiettivi militari o una città per fare terrore? Milano è stata bombardata per fare terrore. Non è stata bombardata per, perché c’erano cose particolari, non era. Differenza, vorrei capirla io, come viene, queste pattuglie che vanno su due caccia [unclear] che vanno lì, mitragliano un treno scoprendo che c’è, magari non sapendo che è un treno civile si bombarda, si mitraglia un treno. A Milano, nella zona intorno a Milano, ma che obiettivo è? Per me è per fare terrore, per far cessare, proprio per fare rimuovere la gente, ‘basta adesso, noi non ne possiamo più’, per me. Però strategicamente, non sono uno stratega.
AP: E Pippo come c’entra in tutto questo?
GT: Come?
AP: Pippo. Lei ha ricordato Pippo. L’aereo.
GT: Ah Pippo anche questo qui, che signi, ecco, il significato. Terrore. Può arrivare un bombardamento, crea panico, perché una bombettina non ha mai fatto, ma non credo che sia mai successo un morto per Pippo. Com’era? Come mai arriva questo aereo? Ma sempre per tenere in allarme, cioè, per provocare questa ansia nella gente che si muova, che faccia qualche cosa, che da dentro, si muova da dentro per far finire queste cose. Eh, solo quello, solo quello. Quella è una strategia che. Altro [unclear]
AP: A distanza di settant’anni, è cambiato la sua opinione verso chi la bombardava o chi la mitragliava? Lei pensa che ci sia una differenza tra quello che pensava da bambino e quello che pensa lei adesso?
GT: No, penso che sia stato proprio una cosa per creare proprio il terrore. Per creare terrore e far smettere la gente di, cioè provocare questa, dall’interno questa, questa rivolta, no, contro, contro chi dei nostri faceva la guerra, farla smettere, insomma, farla cessare, farla cessare.
AP: Lei mi ha accennato a sua moglie che ha perso la casa.
GT: Sì.
AP: Questa cosa vi ha unito in qualche maniera? Avete passato le stesse esperienze? Vi siete sentiti uniti? Ne avete parlato?
GT: No, no, no, in questo no perché, beh ma lì è stata un’altra tragedia, lei era una bambina, aveva nove anni, otto anni, nove anni. Hanno perso la casa perché è caduta a Milano in Piazza Bacone e la sua casa è crollata e lei si è salvata perché era in rifugio con i parenti [laughs], con e basta. Da lì è stata un po’ una tragedia per lei dopo, quello che ha subito lei ma era piccola.
AP: Si ricorda cosa era successo?
GT: Sì, dopo lei ha dovuto, eh, hanno perso tutto la casa, hanno dovuto andare presso dei parenti, insomma c’è stata tutta una concomitanza di cose negative per lei, per la sua infanzia voglio dire eccetera eccetera. Questo sì però è lei che, quello che poi ha provato lei io non lo so [laughs].
AP: Prima mi ha parlato di Mussolini e di altri a Piazzale Loreto.
GT: Sì.
AP: Vuole raccontarmi qualcosa di più?
GT: Beh, noi ci siamo trovati, dunque, a Piazzale Loreto perché ad un certo momento, è abbastanza vicino alla zona dove abito quindi [unclear] scesi in strada [unclear], siamo corsi tutti a Piazzale Loreto e abbiamo visto quello spettacolo abnorme, spettacolo orribile. Da ragazzo non l’ho subito però mi ha dato fastidio subito quindi Mussolini, Petacci, Bombacci, c’era un, beh, c’erano questi gerarchi fascisti che io adesso non ricordo mentalmente chi è che era appeso. La cosa più brutta che ho provato. Dunque poi a un certo momento è arrivato un camion, dopo le spiego perché è arrivato il camion, è arrivato un camion e hanno staccato, hanno incominciato a staccare. Quando sono arrivato io la Petacci era ancora con le gonne giù, cioè al contrario e quindi era praticamente nuda o seminuda. Dunque il camion. Su c’era un deposito di benzina, li avevano attaccati tutti sul deposito di benzina alla base di questo striscione di metallo che c’era su e hanno incominciato a tagliare la corda e li hanno calati a uno a uno. Quando sono arrivati a Mussolini, hanno tagliato la corda di netto, non li hanno presi, l’hanno, l’hanno fatto cadere sul camion apposta. E’ stato una roba, è stato una roba pazzesca, la gente che andava a sputare addosso, a calci, urlando cose inenarrabili, basta, dopo [unclear] questa era, una corrida, con tutti i matador [laughs]. Glielo dico visto adesso, con tutti i matador che sputavano, urlavano, imprecavano ancora contro un’ammasso lì poverino, una cosa, poverino dico perché in quel momento poteva fare, ma non mi ha fatto pena in quel momento. E’ stato troppo la ribellione [unclear] perché lì non è più una ribellione perché tu sei nero io sono rosso, tu sei verde, no, no, è una ribellione contro qualcuno che in fondo la guerra aveva fatto morire i figli, mariti eccetera e quindi una guerra che non, che forse l’italiano non ha sentito insomma, l’ha sentito attraverso la, esclusivamente la politica, la forza del fascismo nel fare propaganda, però questo da ragazzo io l’ho capito dopo eh. Il momento io ho vissuto delle cose basta poi il giudizio allora io non potevo darlo, guardavo e basta. Ora.
AP: Resti per favore
GT: Sì.
AP: Con le emozioni di quel momento
GT: Sì.
AP: A Piazzale Loreto.
GT: Sì.
AP: Si ricorda le grida? Si ricorda che cosa dicevano?
GT: Le devo ripetere?
AP: Se se la sente.
GT: Non credo che siano, ‘Porco! Sei un porco! Hann fatto bene! Bastardo!’ E cose del genere. Ne hanno dette di tutti i colori, adesso degli epiteti che non potevano [unclear]. ‘Ti sputo addosso, in faccia, hai fatto morire mio figlio!’ e tutte cose del genere. ‘Porco te e quella puttana della, della tua Petacci!’. [sighs] Poi un’altra cosa che mi ricordo, beh ma quello non [unclear], ho visto catturare Starace, no, che poi l’hann fucilato lì vicino. Dunque sì, in quel momento è sempre Piazzale Loreto, nella zona e a un certo momento proprio, sì, l’avevano catturato, era Achille Starace, segretario del Partito Fascista Italiano. Achille Starace a un certo momento, non so, lo avevano scoperto non so dove l’avessero preso, questo non lo so, lo portarono lì, lo fecero passare davanti a tutto questo spettacolo, lo portarono lì di fronte e [unclear] gli spararono, lo fucilarono lì, poco distante da dove era, il suo capo era appeso. Quello sì. [unclear] ma sono tutte cose che non si sono, diciamo, proprio susseguite in un modo così da una cosa all’altra, che poi ho visto anche lì come le ho detto prima ho visto uccidere dei, in Piazzale Aspromonte ho visto uccidere un certo, allora. Lo chiamavano Pasqualone, era il ras della zona del partito fascista di, di Lambrate, era proprio segretario del Partito Fascista lui, era un, omone, poi andava sempre con la pistola infilata per fare vedere, sempre camicia nera e lì l’ho visto fucilare anche lui poverino in Piazza Aspromonte, portato lì. E’ sempre brutto, è brutto, sono cose che, uno è difficile credere che sia o non sia, hann messo lì e [unclear] niente. Niente, sono cose che mi ricordo della guerra dal ’40 al ’45 poi sono arrivati gli americani. Ah, poi ho fatto un viaggio su un carro armato che arrivava da Via Padova. Arrivava da Via Padova che è una zona [laughs] est di Milano e a un certo momento mi, questi bei americani che salutavano [unclear], ero lì con diverse persone, un ragazzo, [unclear] un americano mi ha tirato su un carro armato, sono arrivato, avrò fatto trecento o quattrocento metri sul carro armato [laughs], ecco. Allora erano cose che poi non so, sì, in questo caso si ricordano perché giustamente come avete voi [unclear] elencato, si ricordano poco poco, è difficile proprio però perché [unclear] risalendo magari ce ne saranno state anche, non eclatanti no perché quelle me le ricordo di più. Insomma, la cattura di mio fratello è stata eclatante, l’uccisione di Mussolini eclatante nel senso della visione di un ragazzo. Quindici anni, salire su un carro armato americano ecco [laughs]
AP: Mi ha parlato di Osvaldo Valenti.
GT: Sì, Osvaldo Valenti, era della X Mas lui, sì, sì, sì. Ah beh sì, Osvaldo Valenti, quello lo conoscevamo come attore, no? Perché anzi, allora non c’era la televisione [laughs]. Lui e la Luisa Ferida che era la sua amante diciamo o sua moglie, non so cosa fosse. E c’era la famosa Villa Triste a San Siro e lì torturavano i partigiani però, ecco, quello sì, quello me lo ricordo. Poi c’erano le Brigate Nere in Via Rovello. Le Brigate Nere c’erano, sì. Ah, una volta, ecco, in tempo di guerra, verso l’ultimo periodo di guerra, mio fratello era tornato da militare e quando era poi scappato la seconda volta, tornato da militare, no, la prima volta, sì, no, la seconda volta perché poi è andato a fare il militare con i repubblichini e poi è scappato e ha portato a casa il fucile. Un giorno mio padre che se adesso fosse qui forse poverino, ha rischiato con noi, perché? Dunque, amico di un, in quel momento già c’erano i partigiani che aleggiavano ancora in città, no? Qualcuno che era dei partiti. Mio padre conosceva queste persone da vecchio povero socialista e un giorno mi dice: ‘Ma qui abbiamo un fucile in casa. Non preoccupatevi, lo diamo, do io, so io a chi darlo’. ‘E vabbè, ma come facciamo? Chi esce con un fucile?’. Di sera non si poteva, coprifuoco [laughs]. Allora ha inventato una cosa. Ha preso il tappeto che avevamo nella camera e ha messo dentro il fucile. Ha avvolto il tappeto e ha detto a mia sorella e a me di portarlo in un certo posto. Cosa che abbiamo fatto. Pensa il rischio che abbiamo corso due ragazzi con il tappeto con dentro un’arma di guerra, con i partigiani che c’erano in giro e i fascisti che cercavano queste cose. Quello me lo ricordo ma non l’ho mica digerita bene con mio padre che c’ha mandato a fare questo lavoro [laughs], per portare un’arma di guerra, fucile poi praticamente figuriamoci. Ecco questa è una cosa che mi sono ricordato di quelle cose lì poi. Periodo di partigiani non tanto perché, cioè sapevo che ce n’erano, che li prendevano, li catturavano e poi naturalmente li hanno fucilati diversi nella mia zona, li hanno fucilati al Campo Giuriati. E lì è stato una brutta cosa e abitavano lì, c’è ancora la targa adesso di questi partigiani insomma, fucilati al Campo Giuriati. Della guerra, del dopoguerra posso raccontare di più [laughs]. Allora incominciamo dalle bande.
AP: Si ricorda.
GT: Della nera.
AP: Si ricorda la sirena?
GT: La sirena, oh, mamma mia! [mimics the high-pitched prolonged sound of the alarm] eccola e poi quando era finite invece suonava [mimics a different alarm sound] continuava a suonare a lungo, questa suonava a [unclear] e l’altra invece dava un segnale di fine allarme. Perché c’era il preallarme, l’allarme e il fine allarme. Sì, questo sì e anche quello, quello era. Ah, bombardamenti, ‘arrivano, arrivano, arrivano!’, poi magari falso allarme. Che poi di contraerea a Milano non ce n’era, non sparavano neanche un colpo, qualcuno così poi, quindi, sì, le sirene, l’allarme, però dopo. Evidentemente ci siamo abituati anche a quello eh. L’allarme c’è però pazienza [laughs], speriamo che non bombardino qui ecco eh. Dopo un certo momento penso che tutti poi in guerra si rassegnino eh, come una cosa inevitabile ma ormai dopo è venuta, è la guerra, l’hanno fatta, ci hanno obbligato.
AP: E’ stato una bellissima intervista.
GT: Ma, non credo [laughs]
AP: Siamo molto contenti, io e i miei colleghi di aver fatto questa bellissima chiacchierata.
GT: La ringrazio.
AP: E’ stato un piacere parlare con lei. Se non ricorda nient’altro, non vuole aggiungere nient’altro, io concluderei.
GT: Cerco, cerco poi. Uno non è mai preparato a queste cose e poi, ma guardi che. No, non è perché ma uno magari soffre non vuole parlarne, no, no, no, gliel’ho detto, non ho. Non credo di aver subito degli shock perché ho subito la guerra da civile ho subito, da civile, da ragazzzo ho subito la guerra, non credo. Ho sofferto solo un po’ la fame, quello mi dava fastidio, non c’era niente da mangiare, a Milano poi assolutamente, i bollini, andare a prendere il pane con i bollini, con, quelle cose, razionato. E’ così dai [laughs].
AP: Va bene, signor Giulio.
GT: Ma io ringrazio lei.
AP: E’ stata una bellissima esperienza.
GT: Anche per me.
AP: E concludo.
GT: C’era una caserma. Quando io prima ho detto che arrivando a casa avevo visto la casa circondata dalle Brigate Nere e mio fratello fu portato, perché era renitente, era scappato nel ’43, mi pare, no? ’43 è venuto Badoglio.
AP: Sì.
GT: Quando venne Badoglio, ecco, e lo portarono nella caserma di Corso Italia. Corso Italia c’era la caserma dove mettevano dentro tutti quelli che avevano recuperato, scoperto che erano renitenti e li avevano portati lì. E lì li avevano fatto firmare poi l’adesione alla RSI. ‘O ti mandiamo in campo di concentramento in Germani o vieni’. E lui Firmò per la RSI perché e l’unica persona che ha potuto andarlo a visitare è stata mia sorella che è andata a visitare appunto mio fratello prima che lo arruolassero nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana e questo è stato uno dei, diciamo delle cose che mi ha colpito di più come ragazzo diciamo come ragazzo [unclear].
UI: Quanti anni aveva il suo parente?
GT: Eh?
UI: Quanti anni aveva sua sorella?
GT: Mia sorella è dunque del ’24, aveva cinque anni più di me. Quindi io avevo
UI: [unclear]
GT: Nel ’43. Aveva cinque anni più di me. Era, sì, sì, quello è. Quella è una cosa che non ti inventi adesso perché, no, no, non ho nominato la persona a chi abbiamo portato il fucile perché era partigiano [unclear]
AP: Va bene.
GT: No assolutamente, nomi diciamo di persone che
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Guido Toccacieli
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Toccaceri remembers his wartime experiences as a schoolboy in Milan: the day war broke out, food shortages, his father working at an airfield near Bergamo, train strafing, basements used as makeshift shelters, being evacuated outside Milan with his family, fascist militia round-ups, tortures at ‘Villa Triste’, and disposing his brother’s rifle wrapped in a carpet. Remembers the 1942 and 1943 bombings, describes the Gorla bombing and elaborates on his legitimacy. Gives a first-hand account of Mussolini’s corpse being desecrated at Piazzale Loreto and the capture of a prominent fascist leader. Tells of his brother, a draft-dodger, captured by fascist militiamen. Describes a summary of executions of fascists, and female collaborators head-shaven and paraded in shame at the end of the war. Mentions a sense of helplessness, resignation towards the regime, which changed after the bombing escalated, and describes the attacks as the just retribution for starting the war and siding with Hitler.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-10
Format
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00:50:49 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AToccacieliG171210
PToccacieliG1701
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1943-08
1944-10-20
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/873/11113/PHodgsonH1701.2.jpg
b81bd3a0293b6afb8f750805e6df339a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/873/11113/AHodgsonH170723.2.mp3
73a75cae0b9bfeb289bccfd1ce5c10f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hodgson, Harry
Henry Hodgson
H Hodgson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Harry Hodgson (1925 -2022, 3008108 Royal Air Force). He served as ground crew with 10 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hodgson, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Suzanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Harry Hodgson today.
HH: Yeah.
SP: For the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive.
HH: Yeah.
SP: We’re at Harry’s home and it’s the 23rd of July 2017. So, thank you Harry first of all for agreeing to talk to me today. I was just thinking do you want to tell me about your time before the RAF, what were you doing before you joined?
HH: Well, I, I was in an apprenticeship. I was in an apprenticeship at the Regal Displays at St Anne’s Road, South Tottenham, training to be a commercial artist, you see. And I did my training and as I say, and then I was called up in 1943 to the RAF, and this was when my experiences started in the RAF as a, I was a flight, a flight engineer mechanic on airframes during the Second World War between 1943 and 1945. And then when the squadron broke, well we didn’t break up actually we went over to Transport Command, in to Dakotas. Then we flew from Melbourne, Yorkshire to an airfield in, in [unclear] in Gloucestershire and that’s where we’d done our training on Dakotas and from there we flew out from St Mawgan’s to India which took us about a week. We, our first flight was to Sardinia, at Calibri in southern Sardinia. And then from there we went to Libya and North Africa. And from there we went to Tel Aviv. From there we did a bit of training, and we went to Wadi Halfa, on the Nile. And then from there we went to Aden. That’s on the southern tip. And about, and we went to from there we flew to Karachi and Mauripur, and did our training there on Dakotas, and from there we went out to India. Well, we was out in India, yeah. And there we, I was posted to a place called Ambala, north of New Delhi on to Spit Mark 14s, a Spitfire squadron. And then I did a bit of training up there, and then I was reposted back to my old squadron number, Number 10 Squadron. And then we went from there to Chakulia, that’s the southern part of Calcutta. And from there we did some more training, and flying Dakotas. Well, I was in a ground crew at this time, so I kept the planes flying. And then from there as I say I was posted to Burma on, on Dakotas where we was supply dropping rice to [unclear] and all the places that were cut off by the floods, and they couldn’t get the food to the local villages, and so we had a stint there for two or three months, about six months. And then we, we flew back for, I was posted back to my old squadron again. So I’d been posted here and posted there, and then I got, reformed with my old squadron, Number 10. And then ever since then as I say, I was with the squadron so I was there until the war finished in 1945, and that’s when I got demobbed in 1947.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
SP: So, Harry, what made you decide on the RAF, did you have a choice which of the forces to go in to?
HH: Well, the point is there were going to put me in to the Army.
SP: Right.
HH: But I never passed their medical.
SP: Right.
HH: So I still kept on with my old squadron.
SP: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So in a way I was glad because I didn’t want to go in the Army.
SP: Yeah.
HH: No. I was quite happy where I was.
SP: And do you want to tell me a little about, a bit about Melbourne airbase? What was it like being there? What was it like at Melbourne?
HH: Well, of course they did a lot. It was a new airfield and they were still building on the airfield, making more runways because it was quite a big airfield. And we used to take flights in that couldn’t make their own base because we had a FIDO system there which lit up the runways because of the fog we used to get up in Yorkshire. And that cleared the air so the planes could land. So we were quite busy in that period. That’s why we had quite a few dispersal points. So we could carry loads of aircraft from different airfields.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah, that’s it. No. As I say I I had a good, a good life in the, in the RAF because you know, I said to the guy I used to do sign writing and paint these lovely girls on the aircraft which kept all the boys [laughs] happy, yeah. So I’ve had quite a varied life in the RAF you know. Which I was trained to do which came in good stead.
SP: So tell me a bit about the, some of the paintings you did. Can you remember any particular ones that stood out?
HH: Some of these like Dorothy L’amour.
SP: Yeah.
HH: I used to paint her. A nice picture of her on the aircraft and all the different, different stars in those days, you know, yeah, Lana Turner and all those big stars. Oh yeah. I thoroughly enjoyed it but they certainly made use of my, my vast experience anyway.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. That’s one.
SP: So, just looking at the, the planes that you painted who decided what to paint on a plane? Was that you or the crew?
HH: Whatever they asked me to do I used to make a rough sketches, and then I used to do them properly, you know and in time to put them on to the aircraft, you know.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. That’s it. It was quite interesting actually, yeah, oh yeah.
SP: How long did it take to do one of those paintings, do you know?
HH: Well, quite a, well quite a time really because you know I made a start, and of course when they went on operations I had to do them when they came back, so, well some of them when they came back. I know we lost about a hundred and thirty five aircraft.
SP: Right.
HH: On our squadron alone in those, in those, in that war, the years, yeah. So well, our planes were, we used to drop mines and [unclear] we dropped mines on, around Kiel in Germany, all around Le Havre in France. To stop all their ships coming out, you know, so, yeah. We did quite a bit of mining, land mining and sea mining and all that. So, it was, well quite varied we had. But apart from bombing you know Germany and that, no. It was quite an experience it was. Yeah. Well, apart from keeping the planes flying, yeah.
SP: So obviously you looked after your planes. So what would your typical day be like, would there be a typical day for you?
HH: Well —
SP: As a air crew, as ground crew.
HH: Ground staff. Well, yeah we always had planes coming back, you know been hit by flak and anti-aircraft shells and all that kind of thing so, they would be patched up and I used to have to go and suss out some of the controls in the aircraft. That kept me busy. I know we had, we had a flight [pause] I had a flight in the rear gunner’s position, what they called fighter affiliation. That’s when we had a Spitfire on our tail. I said, I said to Peter, who was the pilot at the time, I said, ‘We’ve got a Spitfire on our tail.’ He said, ‘I’ll shake him off.’ He shook him off all right. He turned this Halifax. He rolled us over. He dived [laughs] I said, ‘You don’t want to keep doing that too much. It’s a stress on the main spar.’ [laughs] Anyway, we did shake him off, he was a good pilot, you know, yeah. Oh, we had some near misses too, you know. When we had that Messerschmitt 110 came, came in from, from Norway actually, and he strafed the runway and all the roads but luckily a Spitfire got on his tail and shot him down in the next airfield and we were coming back from Melbourne that trip so we saw it, saw it actually happen, you know. It was quite, quite an horrendous day that was. Yeah. It could have been us but luckily it was, it all happened in front of us, so we could see what was happening. Yeah. As I say you still remember all those days. You had good days and you had bad days you know. Yeah.
SP: What was the atmosphere like when not all the planes came back, because you said —
HH: Very sad actually. Yeah. Well, we could see them coming over from Seaton Ross. We counted them as they was coming in and I said, ahh, we lost a few that night. Yeah. That was a sad moment because like when they all came back all the ground staff and air crew would all used to go to the Melbourne Arms.
SP: All went to where?
HH: The Melbourne Arms.
SP: The Melbourne Arms.
HH: The pub. Yeah.
SP: Yeah. The pub. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. We used to have a good drinking session [laughs] That was, you know, it was quite an experience really when you look back. Lucky, as I say I - one of the people that got through the war. Yeah. I was, it was. Some never made it. Yeah. It was the aircrew that really suffered a lot, because you never know, you know. We would see, see them coming back and counting those that didn’t come back and you knew they had been shot down. Yeah. That’s how [pause]you know, it was quite a life.
SP: So you were talking about the repairs to the plane and that. Could you always manage to repair all the planes or could sometimes —
HH: Well, we patched them up the best we could.
SP: Right. Yeah.
HH: Well, sometimes we never had a spare. We had to keep an aircraft spare, so we could take the parts off to service other aircraft that were flying. Yeah. So it was a bit, a bit dodgy in those days getting spares but, no. As I say I, I made the most of my life being in the RAF. And fortunately I, being artistic I done some of the work you know which kept up the morale.
SP: With your paintings.
HH: Yeah. Yeah, so yeah. Nice was that.
SP: You talked about going to York as well. Did you? Is that where you went you say on your days off to York.
HH: Yeah. We used to go to York.
SP: Yeah. What was that like?
HH: Oh, York. That was a lovely place. York. You know. We used to have a special place to go to drink. Yeah. Oh, I forget the name of it now. Oh dear. This is going back some while now but this pub was special, just for the RAF boys, you know. We more or less, all the aircrew and ground crew were all going to this pub and all the drinks were flowing like water, yeah, in those days, yeah.
SP: And how did —
HH: I couldn’t drink now, eh?
SP: How did you get in and out of York?
HH: Well, we had a, a courtesy bus from the station, used to come in at special times and if we didn’t get on that bus well you’d had it [laughs] You had to stay in York until the next, next bus come out [laughs] And the next one. But we all made it home. Yeah. It was, it was quite funny at times. Yeah.
SP: And can you remember other of the ground crew or did you —
HH: Well, looking back at some of those pictures now. Well, we was all young. Well, when you’re ninety odd you, well you change don’t you? But as I say those, those chaps there, as I say we were all in our eighteens or twenties you see. So I know like, well we talked about things and of course everything classed together so we all knew what we were talking about. Yeah. Good now. Well, we had to make the most of it really, forces. Either you do or you don’t, you know. I know some of the boys couldn’t, couldn’t, couldn’t keep up with it. That’s, it’s like those chaps who were in office work you know. They couldn’t get used to the being, you know I suppose in the RAF you know. They’d been ground crew, so they roughed it a bit but of course I was used to it you see.
SP: Then you went over to India. You said you went all the way over to India.
HH: Yeah.
SP: What was life like over in India?
HH: India. Well, it was a bit hectic you know, especially on their streets out there. They’d run you over for nothing. You had to be so careful crossing the roads and all that out there because they was as mad as March hares they were. Oh yeah. I can always remember one, one instance, there was a, what they call a garry and it was pulled by horses, and they came around this bloody bend at such a rate that one of the horses collapsed and died. Oh Christ, well what a carry on because their horses are like, like gods you know. Oh, it was pandemonium you know when the horse died or anything like that. Oh dear. They couldn’t do enough. Yeah. Very shocking it was. Yeah. No as I say apart from that you know I have seen seen quite a bit of life out there. The Indians and the way they carried on out there. It was a bit different from our life anyway.
SP: And your job was repairing the planes.
HH: Yeah.
SP: The Dakotas.
HH: That’s it. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
SP: And the jobs that the Dakotas were doing. Did you say that was dropping food?
HH: Food. Rice. Mainly rice. So, we used to go to these outlying villages in [unclear] and all those places in the north. North of Burma where they was cut off by the floods you see, and they couldn’t get the rice through by road so we had to fly it in and we used to get over the villages, and we used to drop the rice out, you know. And then they used to [pause] kept them alive. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Otherwise they would have starved. Yeah.
SP: And were you saying that sometimes the food shifted in the plane?
HH: Oh, well. Well, at one time there although all the, all the blokes tied a load together it all snapped, and of course the, all the load shifted to the front and of course they nose dived in to the deck. Yeah.
SP: So, they actually —
HH: Eh?
SP: Crashed whilst they were carrying the —
HH: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Oh, yes. We had our moments or so but well, we got through it anyway. You know, lucky as I say. We were fortunate really being on the ground staff. It was the aircrew that we were more concerned with.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. So —
SP: So, Harry you were saying about you had to go out to the dispersal units sometimes to repair the planes.
HH: Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, like maintenance jobs and all that you see. As I say some of the planes that came back you know were from raids the previous days. They might have been shot up or hit by flak, German anti-aircraft batteries and we just like patched them up and kept them flying. Any main repairs and that had to go in to the hangar for a service you see. Minor jobs were all done in the dispersal point. Yeah. So, yeah as I say, it used to be quite hectic, you know, sometimes when the German bombers came over. We had one scare one night. It was at Pocklington actually, the next airfield. They, they started bombing them and we could see tracer shells flying all over the place you know, and bombs hitting the runway, yeah, oh quite, quite a nightmare. Luckily, we, we escaped most of it. We were lucky really on our squadron. But no, as I say we, we did see some action I’ll tell you, when they started coming over. They used to come over from Norway, you see and well, Norway and from Denmark, up the North Sea. Yeah, because we were near the east coast we were. Most of our squadrons like Pocklington and Elvington, and Driffield were all on the east coast. Those were all Halifax squadrons and all in Lincolnshire were Lancasters, so yeah. But, oh we got through it, made the most of it. As I say we had our good days and had bad days.
SP: You say you got demobbed in ’47.
HH: Yeah.
SP: So what did you do after the war then? What did you —
HH: Before, I was a, I worked for a display firm called Regal Displays. I was an apprentice to being a commercial artist you know, doing signs and painting, photographs, murals and all that kind of thing. So it came in good stead when I was called up and I did a lot of that work in the RAF. They got me, being artistic they got me lined up for jobs [laughs] Yeah. So in a way I didn’t have a bad life really. Yeah.
SP: And then you went back to your artist, your painting.
HH: Well —
SP: After the war.
HH: I did go back for a while but I couldn’t, couldn’t settle down, because open air life. So I, I went to another firm. So I still couldn’t get really settled down. That’s how, I took up cycling. That was what my pastime was, because I liked the open air life. And that as far as that’s why I keep fit today. Yeah. I still got the bike in. Well, not my, the bike I originally had, but I made a design racing frames you see and I used to do a lot of racing you see in those days. But no, when I came out I just took up touring, you know. I got a bike and joined a Cycling Club and went all over the country. Yeah.
SP: Ever back to Melbourne?
HH: Eh?
SP: Ever back to Melbourne?
HH: I went back to Melbourne. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. I took the wife back there actually. She wanted to see it. Yeah. They’ve got a Memorial outside it now haven’t they? Yeah. Because the farmer, I know the farmer well they’ve still got the perimeter track going around and they use that for drag racing on there.
SP: Yeah.
HH: So, they still keep the airfield going in that way, in that respect. Yeah. That’s, no it was a quite a nice airfield actually. It was, it was a what we called a model airfield because they did a lot of extra work on there, that one because it was quite a big airfield. Well, where we had a lot more dispersal points so we’d take, take any aircraft in when it got misty. We had the FIDO system going either side of the runway and the planes could land you see without, you know crashing. Yeah. It was quite interesting really. Yeah.
SP: Yeah, so that, that’s great Harry. Is there anything else you think you’ve not had had the chance to say or anything that you think —
HH: No.
SP: You want to put down on tape.
HH: I’m just thinking. This is going way back now. When I was called up, yeah, I went to Cardington. That’s where I did all my square bashing there, and we used to go around all the little side roads, you know with full pack. Oh, that was a job and a half, you know, cor. You were just, just glad to get back to take all your packs off your back, used to be quite heavy by the time you got back. Yeah. That’s how well it kept us fit. PT in the morning at 6 o’clock just, we were dressed in a pair of trunks. That’s all we had. Yeah, on a cold morning, oh, getting up was a, quite an effort of it. Yeah.
SP: And how long did you do at Cardington in the training? How long would you be there for?
HH: Oh, about four, about four or five weeks. And we passed out there, and so that’s where we went to, to the different airfields you see. I was posted up to Melbourne, and as I say I went on to ground staff and a lot of them went to different parts of the ground staff like MT section and the, there was packing, the packing up of parachutes and all that kind of thing. Yeah. I know once I picked up this parachute and I’ve picked up the rip cord, and of course I was, had the ‘chute coming out trailing along the bloody, bloody ground. And the sergeant said, ‘Well, you can take it back and you can repack it.’ So I had to take it back, and I saw how they did it, so I did pack, repack it, so I made a single pack. Repacked the ‘chute but no, it takes a lot. A lot of strings came out, you know yeah, and all your silk was all folded over. Yeah. You had to get it so nice and neat so you can fold it back in to the pack. Quite a job but still I managed it alright. I mean I was quite mobile in those days [laughs] Yeah. So I’ve seen a bit of life. Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s why, you know when you’ve been in the Services it does you the world of good. It’s good training for like living, living a longer life, you know. Yeah.
SP: Well, that’s brilliant Harry. So I just want to say thank you very much on behalf of the International Bomber Command for doing the recording for them today.
HH: Aye. Yeah.
SP: We’d just like to thank you for your time.
HH: Yeah. That’s fine love, yeah.
SP: Ok. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Hodgson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHodgsonH170723, PHodgsonH1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:31:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hodgson was ground crew during the war. He was based with 10 Squadron, working on Halifax Bombers at RAF Melbourne. Harry said it was a very busy time patching up the holes from both anti-aircraft fire and bullets on the Halifax. He remembers having to work in freezing conditions when the planes were on the dispersal points getting them ready to fly again. It was after around 3 operations the aircraft would be taken into the hangar for a more thorough overhaul. Harry was also on the receiving end of German fire when the airfield and local roads were strafed by German fighters that had followed the 10 Squadron Halifax Bombers back to base. Harry was a sign writer before he joined up and due to this was asked by several of the crews to paint the nose art on their aircraft.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Burma
Great Britain
India
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
10 Squadron
C-47
crash
FIDO
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
military service conditions
nose art
RAF Cardington
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pocklington
RAF St Mawgan
Spitfire
strafing
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/709/10107/ABirchallJW170816.1.mp3
ea889d81b3af8f15e94dfed07b1db474
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Birchall, James William
J W Birchall
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with James Birchall (b. 1923, 16062 Royal Air Force). He was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Birchall, JW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DB: This interview is with James William Birchall and it’s on the 16th of August 2017 at 15.50 hours. Also present in the room is Mr Brian Keen. James — or apologies, Jimmy.
JB: Thank you.
DB: Tell me a little bit about your life before you joined the RAF.
JB: The RAF. If I start reading. I left grammar school at sixteen which was the usual time then. I went into a solicitor’s office. At eighteen I wanted to volunteer for the RAF and I was in the Air Training Corps. My older colleagues were volunteering but at that time there were too many volunteers so they put us on what they called deferred service. ‘We’ll call you back in another six months to start your training for air crew.’ I thought if I go in December they’ll call me back in June which would be about the right time to start. But on the 7th December 1941, I remember that date because it was Pearl Harbour, I went to RAF Cardington for medicals. The warrant officer said, ‘You’re one of the lucky ones. Down for immediate service.’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want to come in the middle. I want to come in the middle of the year.’ And he said, ‘Oh, you’ll have to explain that to the group captain and it’s Friday afternoon and he’s gone playing golf. You can’t see him ‘til Monday.’ So, I stayed in this empty camp. Everyone had gone off for the weekend. The warrant officer on Monday said, ‘Write out why you should be given this deferred service.’ He underlined various sentences in red pencil, went into the group captain, came out and said, ‘The group captain’s considered your case and you’re still on immediate service.’ I went to the Aircrew Receiving Centre and that’s ACRC at St Johns Wood. Spent Christmas there on picket duty. Then finally went for the Initial Training Wing at Stratford on Avon where you did initial training. Square bashing, learning aviation law and things like that. Then you did what was called a grading course flying Tiger Moths to see if you had an aptitude because most of the flying training at that time was done in South Africa or Canada or America. Our weather was too bad. Anyhow, I soloed in eight and a half hours. If you hadn’t soloed by ten hours then you were out. I soloed in eight and a half hours. The instant I’d done this I was shipped off to Calgary in Alberta, Canada. It’s rather a coincidence that my son who is a medical consultant he got a scholarship to Stow and then on to Cambridge to study medicine. He’s there now. I won’t carry on about him. He is married and has three daughters. Flying training. I did my elementary flying training in Calgary in PT17s which were like biplanes made by Boeings. They’re still using them today for wing walking. Single-engined. Very good for aerobatics. Very good for training. From there they assessed your aptitude for fighter aircraft or multi-engined aircraft. Bombers. I thoroughly enjoyed instrument flying. We did some instrument flying in the PT17s with the hood up. Then I, we were then moved to Service Flying Training School which was at a place called Penhold, flying Oxfords. And it was parallel to the Rockies. I got my wings on the 18th of December 1942, exactly a year from my start. Sailed back from New York in the Queen Elizabeth carrying fifteen thousand troops. Mostly American. Crossing the Atlantic at the height of the U-boat packs. There were too many of us but at that time the RAF had units that would absorb you. So they gave us a commando course at Whitley Bay. Swimming in the North Sea in January and February wasn’t fun. To assimilate us back in to flying we went on a refresher course and then we did a lot of beam approach flying and then from there on we progressed to OTUs. Operational Training Units where we flew heavy twins. Wellingtons. Lovely aircraft. The pilot had a cushioned leather seat instead of just a metal bucket seat where you sat on your parachute. Wellingtons are much heavier, much bigger than Oxfords. We did a course of about fifty hours flying Wellingtons from Seighford near Stafford. And then here in a big hangar at Stafford men were gathered in groups of aircrew. Navigators, bomb aimers, radio operators and rear gunners. ‘Go and pick your crew.’ That’s how it was done. We then trained as a crew on Wellingtons. Did one or two operational flights at the end of our training over North France. From there we progressed to a Lancaster Finishing School. LFS at Lindholme near Doncaster flying Halifaxes and Lancasters. About the same size as Lancasters Halifaxes were much heavier to fly with a very strong undercarriage. I’ve got here built like a brick shithouse but I don’t know whether you [laughs] Lancasters were a delight to fly. Beautifully balanced. More delicate. But you had to be careful on take-off. If we opened up and then it goes on to say that they would normally swing to the left and you’d got to be ready to correct it. After Lancaster, Lanc Finishing School I went to 12 Squadron in 1 Group at Wickenby near Lincoln. I did three or four bombing trips there. One was to Hanover. And then it’s here where we were shot up by a Messerschmitt 109 and we got the impression, it felt like a bucket of hot coals had been thrown over us because it was a tracer hitting us. I felt a kick in my back and nothing else. And then we were — we lost our mid-upper gunner. He was, his Perspex turret had splintered and part had gone in his eye and he lost his eye. At the time I got — I then went with him to the Medical Centre. We were x-rayed and they found that I’d got a bullet in my back, and a couple of — I’m getting [pause] Then I, when I was in hospital at Rauceby for three months when I was fit again I was a head without a crew because my crew had been cannibalised while I was away. But there was another crew without a head in 103 Squadron. Their captain had gone on a flight as a second pilot with another crew to get experience and he’d been shot down. So, here was a headless crew and here was a head without a crew. That crew had been trained together from the beginning. They were all NCOs, and ultimately when we were shot down they were sent to an NCO POW camp all together. So, I never really saw them again until after the war. Another trip of interest was to Nuremberg on the 30th of March 1944. I think everyone knows that date. And the briefing we got from Bomber Harris said, ‘Very shortly Bomber Command will be called upon to support the invasion of Europe.’ And Sir Arthur Harris is anxious to strike at one last target before this happens. It’s a target he knows is very dear to Churchill’s heart. Nuremberg deserves a maximum effort and that is what it’ll get. Then there will be ten squadrons in one group, eight squadrons 3 Group. Etcetera. In addition there are fifteen Mosquitoes adopting an intruder role. So you will have lots of company but keep a good look out at turning points. And then it says Pilot Officer JW Birchall, Captain, Lancaster ND700 which took off at 22.10, landed at 06.46. Coming back of interest he coasted in at Selsey Bill. We were based south of the Humber. Ninety six aircraft were lost and a further ten were damaged on landing and were written off. I think I’ve got further details separately. The type of German night fighter technique, it was called schrage musik which apparently means slanting music which means jazz. It’s the German for jazz. The twin engine night fighters mounted four twenty millimetre cannon behind the pilot, sticking out of the cockpit at an angle. The ground radar monitored these night fighters in to the bomber stream and using his airborne radar the navigator could direct his pilot towards the target. When he got about two miles away the night fighter could duck down and come up underneath the bomber. We didn’t even rumble it. We couldn’t see underneath in Lancasters. He could then almost read the registration of the aircraft fifty feet above him. They then had the gunsight arranged so they didn’t aim at the middle of the aircraft to kill the crew. They were like ourself. He just wanted to knock out the aircraft. And — no I won’t. So, I think this is getting a bit laboured isn’t it? The next one was Dusseldorf on the 22nd of April. I think I’ll probably try and summarise that. They were, on our squadron there were fifteen aircraft detailed to go to Dusseldorf and we lined up each side of the runway and the aircraft ahead of us, we were still waiting, took off and on take-off he swung off the runway into the soft ground. Undercarriage collapsed. His bomb load exploded and we could see the crew evacuating, rushing off. But instead of cancelling operations the tower said, ‘We’ll change to runway — ’ I think it was runway 22. So it meant that all the ones behind me had all got to turn around with their bomb load on on the perimeter track. And some got off and some didn’t. And we had just got to the stage where we were lined up and then the tower said, ‘Aircraft not airborne return to dispersal.’ Now, at that time we were conscious that the set course time had been and gone about twenty minutes before. So we were going to be twenty minutes late even if — so I said to the chaps, ‘What shall we do? Shall we do as we are told and go back to dispersal or shall we go?’ So, we all said, ‘Oh, let’s go.’ So we all went and tried to catch them up. I asked the navigator to give me a straighter course. He did this, which took us right through the Ruhr up to Dusseldorf and so we, we got hammered going through the Ruhr and by the time we could see the fire of Dusseldorf ahead of us we were still about thirty miles below it err before it so we carried on. We dropped our bombs. And then we turned for home and suddenly something hit us. Just about knocked us on our back. And it must have been one of these night fighters with its four twenty millimetre cannon. It had formated underneath us and bingo. The number three engine, the starboard inner engine was on fire. We put out the fire. The engineer put out the fire with the extinguisher and we feathered the engine and we were going to hope to get home on three engines. But then we saw the fire come back again and it was really burning very intensely and getting very close to our number one tank which I remember was five hundred and eighty gallons. It got to the stage where we couldn’t do anything about it. We used the fire extinguisher. So I had to, told the crew to abandon the aircraft. Well, to abandon aircraft in Lancasters you have got to be dominated by that big spar which goes right across. So, people like the wireless operator, the rear gunner, the mid-upper gunner who were behind, aft of that big spar could go out through the main back door. The people who were in front of that would never stand a chance with parachutes on and all the rest of it so they would go out through a small hatch underneath the chin of the aircraft. It was a padded seat that the bomb aimer used to lie on while he was lining up his sights. So the place was blazing. I was holding it as fast as I could while the other ones got out. I could see the flight engineer went out, the bomb aimer went out. And I managed to see the navigator and he went out but I had a, an impression that his flying boots were on fire somehow. And he was interested in knocking flames out when he went out. And unfortunately the bomb aimer, whose job was to jettison that hatch before he went out he brought it indoor and he’d left it inside. And with the motion and the suction this I could see as the navigator went out wedged cornerways in the hatch. I couldn’t get out myself there. So the only way I thought was to get out through the roof. Now, I wasn’t thinking rightly because the little exit in the glass panelling we used in practices for dinghy drill with the aircraft supposedly floating on the water so we had to get out above it. But if you’ve got a parachute on and your flying gear to get out so I remember I panicked. I tried to rip this metal canopy apart. Couldn’t do that. So then I hit on the idea unhook my parachute, push it through still holding the rip cord and then I could follow it out. And it pulled me out so I was lucky to get out. So, that was how I made my entrance into Germany. Now, I I think I’m, that was a photo, a squadron photograph we had taken. I’ve got an arrow here with me. In the original which the wireless operator got he’d got a little arrow on this side but it’s chopped off a bit so we couldn’t see. So I put a ring around it. But it shows how big a Lancaster was when you see the whole squadron including the bull dog which was the mascot. But then you have the WAAF drivers. You have all the ground crew and it’s a lot of people to man fifteen aircraft. I think that was just on the official records of this ME 741 in 103 Squadron. It was built in April ’44 and it was lost over Dusseldorf on the 23rd of April having only flown thirty one hours. My capture — well I don’t think that’s [pause] I landed. Well, in your battledress you had a kit which gave you foreign currency and of maps of Europe so you could escape. And as was coming down I got all this out and I thought oh, this is alright. I can make a trip now through Germany and Spain. I also noticed that I heard the German all clear because we were so far behind the rest of them once they shot me down there was nothing [laughs] That made sense because we were the last aircraft over the Ruhr and we’d been shot down. So they sounded the all clear and I remember thinking the German all clear is the same as ours. I started to concentrate on where I was going. It was a moonlight night. I could see the River Rhine and thought I was going to land in it. And I could see I was drifting away from the Rhine so I was alright. Then I could see something round coming up in the moonlight and I thought that’s either a round greenhouse or a summer house. I couldn’t make out what it was I was aiming for. And I plonked down and found it was an ack-ack gun emplacement and these were all the sandbags around it. There was only one Luftwaffe man guarding it. The rest had all gone back to their billets having heard the all clear. He was surprised and he called an officer who attempted to interrogate me. He spoke, ‘Some German?’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘English?’ He said, ‘No.’ So we had a bit of French and didn’t get very far. A train took us. We got a train the following day to Krefeld where we were to be taken to a Luftwaffe collection point for shot down POWs. At that time there were a lot of Americans because every time a Flying Fortress got shot down there was a ten strong crew. We got off the train and we walked. Walked to the town centre where a tram car would take us to the collection place. I was with this corporal who made me carry my parachute. I’d landed heavily so my knees were very painful. On the way to the square we made to turn up a little side street when he hesitated and walked past it. I thought oh he doesn’t know his way. But as I walked past that little street I had a glance up there and saw four RAF sergeants hanging from lampposts. Krefeld was part of the Ruhr which had taken an enormous pounding. And I thought this is real, this is happening. When we got to the Square and waited for the tram car people gathered around to see one of the terror fliegers carrying his parachute. They were very volatile. Surged in. Kicked me. Hit me. I remember one big plump fellow with a walking stick shouting that I’d, ‘Bomben my kinder and frau in Dusseldorf.’ He walloped into me. Knocked me down, kicked me, jumped on me. I was losing consciousness when I heard a pistol shot. I think it must have been the guard whose responsibility I was. Four SS men arrived which terrified me even more in their black uniforms with skull, silver skull and crossbone badges. But they held the crowd back ‘til the tram came along. Two of them came on the tram with the guard and for once in my life I was grateful to the SS for saving me from being hung up on that next lamp post. That was a bit of the parachute which I got the crew to sign after the war. I’ll just rabbit on. I don’t want to. Yes? The interrogation — we were at this collection point for a couple of days when they took us, a group of us, mostly Americans to the main flyer’s interrogation centre at Oberursel near Frankfurt. Built specifically for interrogating prisoners. I was in a solitary cell, eight by six. I paced up and down. The walls were all lined with some sort of thick absorbent cardboard and the window had bars on it. It was hot in Frankfurt in April and in the daytime they would switch on a big radiator in each room and close the shutters from the outside so you really cooked. At night the radiators went cold and the shutters were opened so you were exposed to the night and got very cold. That was the only form of torture I suffered. They fed us much the same blah blah blah. After about a week I was taken to a big interrogation office where a Luftwaffe major who spoke excellent English did the interrogating. He was very friendly. He said, ‘I’ve told the German High Command that you are a shot down British airman but they don’t believe me. You are a spy.’ I said, ‘No. I’m not a spy. I’m wearing my uniform. I’ve got my dog tags for identification.’ He said, ‘Yes. But all spies, not knowing where they are going to land put on a uniform so they, they’d be helped by the Geneva Convention. Dog tags. they’re no proof.’ He said, ‘Well, tell me about your aeroplane. If you are a shot down British airman we’ll have the wreckage of your plane with its registration on. Tell us that.’ I said, ‘No. All I can tell you is name, rank and number.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Tell us some members of your crew because we will have caught those. That will confirm you are a shot down British airman.’ ‘No. Name, rank and number.’ So, he said, ‘Well, I’m sorry. I can’t convince them that you’re not a spy.’ And then, well they, which is the German High Command I think, ‘You’re not a spy and that orders are that at 8 o’clock tomorrow you will be shot.’ I didn’t sleep much that night. 8 o’clock still no jack boots down the corridor outside my bell. Breakfast came at the usual time. I was there for another week thinking that if they ask me again I’ll tell them anything they want to know to prove that I was a shot down airman and not a spy. Well, it just goes on. But anyhow the next time he interviewed me he had, it was in the same briefing room but he’d got a large map on the back wall and a lot of these manilla folders with the squadron crest on the front. And he thumbed through these and he had his pink tape on the map behind him but he didn’t have our base on it. The tape was just from the English coast. They could monitor where the bomber stream was on the radar. He was thumbing through some brown manilla files on his desk. Each one with the squadron crest on. ‘Oh yes. 103 Squadron. Recently you’ve had quite a few losses on your squadron.’ On such a night so and so was shot down. He had three or four of these but thinking about it they had been shot down. They’d have been interrogated so he'd have got their details. Then he said, ‘Did you know your squadron commander had been recommended for his DSO?’ We didn’t. I didn’t know if it was true. He was looking to see my reaction each time to confirm if what he was saying was correct. I asked him about one of my chums who was shot down and hadn’t come back. ‘No. He probably had to ditch in the North Sea so we wouldn’t have any details of him.’ All very plausible. So, he asked me one question about the funnel. The leading light funnel leading to the runway. And he called this, he says, ‘Out of interest what’s this Christmas tree you have at night along your runway? A series of lights you call a Christmas tree.’ Did he mean the six mile funnel of lead in lights? One aircraft was coming in to the land and unknown to us a night fighter infiltrated. Coming in behind him on final approach. Positioned under him and shot him, shot. The aircraft crashed and they were all killed. This must have been what he was talking about. So it was a different form of interrogation he made. Confirmation of known facts and the Christmas tree question. But he did give me the consolation, ‘We’ve established you’re a shot down airman.’ Can we have a break now?
[recording paused]
After the interrogation they took us by train to Stalag Luft 3 at Sagan in Silesia. The notorious camp of the Great Escape where seventy six officers escaped on the night of March the 24th ’44. Only three got back to England. The rest were re-captured and on Hitler’s express orders fifty were shot. I arrived in the camp before this fact was known. The senior British officer, Group Captain Massey demanded of the German commandant that their bodies should be returned for a decent internment and perhaps a monument. And although told that they had been shot while escaping the bodies came back to indicate that they had not been shot in the back but in the front. It looks like a firing squad. We tried to find things to do. I read the whole of Charles Dickens. We had one navigator and he set off to run a navigation course up to the standard of the Civil Navigator’s Licence Second Class. You could get documents through the Red Cross and do the final exam through them. It was something constructive to do and I got my licence. We had lots of theatres. There were, there were POWs who enjoyed training for theatre work and they used to put on a play for us every week or two. We, the audience dressed in our best blue which we’d sent from home. I remember Blythe Spirit. And Messaline, which was written in the camp about a Greek prostitute, I think. There was Pud Davies, that was Rupert Davies who later played Maigret on television. Then there was Commander John Casson RN. He was the son of Dame Sybil Thorndike. He worked in the management side of theatre. There was Talbot Rothwell as was known. We knew him as Tolley. Another expert thespian who now produces the Carry On films. And also Peter Butterworth who was also on the Carry On team. There was one effeminate Squadron Leader, Bobby Lomas who always played the female. And the whole camp, starved of female fancied him. There was no rapport with the German guards with strict rules, but when we had a theatre show we invited the commandant and the senior guards to come and gave them the front seat. And we of course dressed in our best blue. So, all very prim and proper. We were still tunnelling. There was one under the theatre hut. And you — the tunnels dug through sandy soil required to be shored up by slats from bed boards, and each bed had eight slats. And when you were called to surrender one slat for shoring up the tunnel you took the biggest slat and split it in two so you gave one to the tunnel but you still had eight. You could see the Germans doing inspections through the windows as you were lined up outside counting the slats. But the slats were getting thinner and thinner and eventually a bed would collapse. If it was the top one of three tiers it would come crashing down on the two beneath. No more tunnels were successful while I was there. Then we met the winter, the bitter winter and the Russians started their offensive across Poland, and they had liberated Warsaw. And at Sagan we heard rumours that we POWs were either going to be shot or taken on a trek. Hitler wanted to hang on to POW officers for possible bargaining at the war’s end. They could let the Russians take other ranks from their camps to Odessa and ship them back to England. The week before we’d seen horses and trailers with big boilers and chimneys. One or two people had been in Belsen or Buchenwald and had even seen these Death Camps. So we started to get a bit twitchy when a dozen of these boilers were lined up outside. Were they going to incinerate us? We decided that if they did we’d make a mad rush for the wire and try to climb over. We’d all be shot but it was better than being cooked. Anyhow, the following morning it had all gone. It was a German field kitchen. On the 27th of January, about 10.30pm we got the call, ‘We are marching out in one hour’s time. Take a blanket, take your overcoat, your greatcoat and gloves if you’ve got any.’ And we left at midnight on that date, the 27th of January where snow had been snowing for the past three weeks. And we marched for two or three weeks in the snow from then. The Germans didn’t know where we were going. We were just wandering aimlessly about. It got really cold and we had one instance where we were sleeping just outside the, on a barn, outside a barn. And in the morning the Germans came, prodded three officers but they had frozen to death during the night. One was Pop Green. He was quite an old one. I was marching on the side when I, with German tanks going past I collapsed having been struck by a tank and I was just hauled out by my buddies. We all pulled together. We marched almost to Hanover where they took us by train. Locked us in cattle trucks labelled forty hommes or eight chevaux. They packed us in as tight as they could and we travelled about Germany for two or three days. Those with dysentery were crowded into one corner and the rest took turns sleeping. Half lying down while the others half stood up. We were occasionally given rations when a field kitchen caught us up. It was barley glop. Boiled up barley but it was nice and hot. We drank rusty water from the tap on the side of the engine. When the train stopped we were allowed to walk about with the guards all around. The spring weather came and we were met very often by Typhoons or Tempests, some of which came out of from Selsey. The — that time they had they, they thought that we were German troops evacuating so they would take pot shots at us. And on one occasion towards dusk we were parked in a field with guards all around and we heard Merlin engines. A Mosquito doing a reccy had spotted a field full of troops so soon, the next thing a Typhoon came and had a go at us. One or two people got injured. Part of our walk finished up in a field by a German autobahn with a bridge nearby. Under it for safety were four or five German horse drawn carts. A couple of Typhoons spotted them and started shooting, annoyingly killing the poor old horses. We felt very sorry about that. As we crossed the Elbe some more Typhoons or Tempests had a go at the ferry. Wasn’t very successful. Nobody was hit. We then stayed at a place near Lubeck and we were told that we need not stay in Lubeck because they had typhus or, or typhoid. Instead we were permitted, we got the German commandant to agree to take over a large estate and he was very cooperative then because he knew the end of the war was in sight and he hoped we would speak up for him afterwards. Anyhow, we persuaded the troops, the German troops to throw hand grenades into the lake. The fish floated to the top and we swam in and got them. We dined well from there. When we got back to England they expected us to be skin and bone but we were fine and fit from living in the open. The, the Germans surrendered on May the 8th. We were, on May the 2nd we were liberated by a jeep with a driver and a British army corporal who stumbled across us. ‘You’re all liberated now. Stay here. Don’t try and wander. We’ll arrange transport to take you back to England,’ So, they took us to a Luftwaffe station called Diepholz where Dakotas or Lancasters took us back to England where we arrived in the afternoon and interrogated to find out what we’d seen in Germany that might be of interest. Any secret weapons or whatever. They gave us money, identity papers, clothing, railway warrants. So, on the 8th of May, VE Day we worked right through the night and I was given a train pass and arrived home the next morning in South Lancashire. No one was at home. They were all at church celebrating VE day. When they came back what a surprise. They’d heard nothing from me since September the previous year.
[recording paused]
My trip back from Germany was from a place, a German Luftwaffe station called Diepholz and we came back in a Dakota to one of the OTUs, in Oxfordshire I suppose, called Wing. It so happened that my future wife was in air traffic control at a place called [pause] it was at Westcott where the — no. My mind’s gone. Hut in Stalag Luft 3. We had fifteen of us in three tier bunks and in the top bunk there was a New Zealand squadron leader called Len Trent. And he was, used to be sleeping there in the afternoon and we had nothing else to talk about so we used to spend hours arguing who would win the war. Would it be fighters or bombers? And then we heard his voice, ‘For Christ sake shut up. I want to get some sleep.’ And we all stayed together where ever we went. We all stayed together. And we finished up by being interrogated in England. And there was Len and the other fourteen of us and we were all wanting to get cracking so we could get off home but Len was still being interrogated and talked. And we said, ‘Come on Len. Come on. You’re holding us up.’ But, ‘No. No. No. Shut up. No.’ And it was then, just after VJ day that word came out that Leonard Trent, New Zealand Air Force had just got the VC. And he hadn’t mentioned it of course to us. Well, he didn’t know at that time. So, that was Len Trent. I think it was three trips at 12 Squadron at Wickenby and then I got this bullet in my back. So, of course that was, although my crew then, we’d all been trained together I lost them at that time when I had to go in to hospital. They’d been cannibalised and so as I said I had then to take over a new crew on 103 Squadron and we didn’t do very many trips there. Altogether I think it was about twelve, thirteen but this was the time in April ’44 when the Germans had really organised themselves with these four cannon. And they would see where the bomber stream was going. They would then direct the night fighters into the bomber stream. The navigator in that night fighter could see his echoes and he would then direct his pilot on to the targets there. And when he got within two miles they’d duck down underneath and from then on [pause] And I spoke afterwards. Went to a place in London. There was some discussion I vaguely remember. Lord Tedder was there. But this fellow was a night fighter pilot and he said that it was, he regularly shot down four or five Lancasters every trip he did. And the average tour length at that time was about seven because you didn’t stand a chance. Yes. When I was shot down the team at the back got the mid-upper gunner, who was unconscious having had his face shot up. And they hooked his parachute hand over the ripcord which was the you know, the silver thing on the side which, and he was unconscious but they turfed him out thinking well that was the best they could do for him. And apparently he woke up the following day in a cabbage field. Blood all over himself and the parachute there. So he must have automatically pulled his parachute. So, I met them all afterwards and he’d lost his eye so coincidence that I had two mid-upper gunners lost their eye. But there are bits when you’re sitting on top there. There’s any, I’ve got the strip. These were reflections. We were all very young. Initially it was a game. I’ve got the parachute of the trip I was shot down in. I got the crew to sign it. The camp we were in. Fifteen sleeping in three tier bunks. Well, this was on the top bunk was Len Trent, New Zealand accent said, ‘For Christ sake.’ During that week in solitary in the beginning I thought I must think of something. Today, I will think entirely for the whole of the day on my mother, tomorrow my father, then my brother. Dragging up everything I could think about them to keep my mind occupied. How people survive in solitary for months I don’t know. I didn’t have a girlfriend at that time. I didn’t meet Heather ‘til after the war. So, I don’t think — these are just reflections. Then I think you’ve seen this one about when I went from RAF Feltwell. I’d been a little time when I was promoted to fill the squadron leader. Yes. This is about posting Heather to RAF Mildenhall ten miles away. She used to cycle over to see me and we carried on. Feltwell closed and was taken over by the Americans to store Polaris. I was then posted to Mildenhall because the squadron leader was demobbed. Then the group captain came. So I think that is that now. One — and that is in the camp I’d forgotten that I kept a diary. It was on a very thin flimsy paper and it was written in pencil and my mother must have been, at the end of the war she got hold of it. And this then came to my cousin and she said, ‘Oh, this is wonderful. You must make a record of it.’ So, what she did. Well, she wrote to, to the Bodleian Library in Oxford to see how you could preserve these things and what he should do. And then they contacted the RAF Museum at Hendon who were very interested and they have now been given, I think most of these books. But I’ll show you. I won’t go through them because it’s going to take you too long. I can say on this march, this long march we had the guards marching alongside us to see that we didn’t escape, although no one would want to escape in those conditions. But the guards were very old men and they got further and further behind. So they were moving slower than we were and they finished up at the back of the column. So then the guards had vehicles to collect them, take them to the front of the column, put them down and they started on the front of the column and gradually drifted back to the [pause ] but they were very, very old. This June ’46. On the 22nd of June Heather and I were married in Pinner Church after Heather’s demob in May. I applied for a vacancy in Civil Air Traffic Control having had my military experience. When they interviewed me the minimum recruiting age at that time was twenty five. However, when they saw me they reduced the age to twenty three and I was in. I landed up, they posted you nearest your home. I landed up at Speke Airport, Liverpool. Now, I think it’s called John Lennon Airport isn’t it? While there I did a month’s leave relief for a controller at Ronaldsway which was at Douglas Isle Of Man. Both Heather and I enjoyed the holiday although it was so cold that we ironed the sheets to warm them up before getting into bed. In 1947 I volunteered to open up Belfast Civil Airport. At the former RAF airfield called Nutts Corner. I soon devised a new routing coming and going from the Isle of Man direction. At that time the inbound and the departures all followed a common routing between Belfast and the Isle of Man and then further down to Manchester or Liverpool or, or London. So, we had to devise some way of separating them because if you had one aircraft coming in and another one going out you couldn’t climb one and descend one through the other. So, I hit upon the idea that I would, I went to see the Belfast BBC transmitter site which was well south of the inbound route. And departing aircraft then took off and turned south homing on the BBC beacon, and the, my efforts were approved. We had two separate routes and I was rewarded. Some, something else I did on the radar I became fifty pound richer. So, anyhow I must have impressed someone because in 1950 I was transferred to open up the Air Traffic Control Experimental Unit based in the north west corner of Heathrow, and with access to a radar installation. The ATCEU was a small unit. Just four controllers. Two operation officers and a team of radar radio staff at our disposal. The projects in which I was most involved was the use of a third parallel runway for Heathrow. We decided that the introduction of a third runway was not feasible or cost effective and to have a second runway at Gatwick at a later date would be more feasible. Sixty years later, well it’s now about seventy years later the government is still undecided. Another project I had was to visit manufacturers who were providing radars. There was Cossors, Deccas, Marconis and Plesseys. And the three of us enjoyed that project which determined, it was to determine the gappiness, the cover of any new radars coming by using one of our Civil Aviation Flying Unit’s aircraft from Stansted. We could fly slices through radar beams at various heights and thus determine whether a particular envelope was reliable. Then there was another project of new procedures for increasing the landing rate at Heathrow. And that got rather complicated. It involved the use of two radar talk down systems. In fact, later on we tried putting a trial. We arranged to close Heathrow for one night between midnight and 5 am. We borrowed four aircraft from the Civil Aviation Flying Unit plus four aircraft from the Empire Test Pilot’s School at Farnborough and invited any scheduled aircraft to participate if they wished. The second GCA unit was provided and we were all set to go when the minimum weather conditions we’d agreed were right on the lower limits. As half of headquarters had come to watch and Heathrow had been notified as closed and the aircraft and the aircrews were standing by I said, ‘Ok. We’ll go.’ It worked out a marginal success although one Farnborough Canberra aircraft on being guided back to the holding stack for another go, he lost himself and he declared Mayday and we spent some half an hour looking for him. We found him over Manston in Kent. In all it wasn’t a great success but once or twice when conditions were right and I was the watch manager at Heathrow I initiated a system but really it wasn’t a resounding success. There were too many variables which could fail. The other thing which was interesting, a possible high level holding procedure for the newly introduced family of jet aircraft. The Comet was the first jet aircraft coming along and with the Comet of, with the introduction of the Comet as the first commercial jet we worked closely with two BOAC pilots, Captain Rodley DSO DFC, and Captain Majendie DFC MA, ex-Cambridge and he was very much a boffin. And they were taking over the Comet from the manufacturers at Hatfield and they were evaluating it. One of the things we were rather concerned about was how much fuel they would use if they got to hold over Heathrow. And the favourite suggestion was for the Comet to reserve a slot but to hold at high level. When its approach time came the Comet would make a high descent in to the approach phase. I made many Comet flights at the time before the demise of that first and the British passenger jet aircraft. And in 1954 we moved into a newly built house at 40 Gatehill Road, Northwood where Ian was born. Two years later it was decided that I should get more experience in Air Traffic Control Centre work along the airways. And I became the watch deputy supervisor to facilitate travel to watchkeeping hours. We had to buy a three quarter acre plot on prestigious Stoke Park Avenue, Farnham Royal so we could get there by public transport at the later hours. Three years later, 1959 I was promoted to a grade one and transferred to become the D Watch manager at Heathrow. One of five watches. Each with some eighty controllers and twenty assistants. On one occasion and probably from my experience at the EU I was co-opted into the accident investigation branch to help concerning an aircraft crash at Gatwick. I left watch-keeping and became assistant chief controller at Heathrow with operational responsibilities and contact with companies. Ian was just starting at Stow and Heather, having refreshed her secretarial skills had become PA to Mr Robbins, European manager of Johnson and Johnson and then when they moved to South Wales she left there and became PA to Mr Bales, training manager at International Computers Limited at Windsor. And then a memory from my Bomber Command days. Our friend and neighbour at Stoke Park Avenue was Robin Mobbs, widow of Sir Richard Mobbs whose father had founded the Slough Trading Estate after World War One. She invited Heather and me to lunch with a friend of hers who lived about a mile away. That was Don Bennett. Air Vice Marshall Donald Bennett CB CBE DSO and the Chief Executive and founder of British South American Airways flying Lancastrians. We both enjoyed that lunch with that distinguished guest. Concorde was the only regular supersonic commercial flight which caught my interest. The Russian Concordski, roughly modelled on Concorde was briefly operational but sadly came to a tragic end at the Paris Airshow. As the Americans never did develop a supersonic airliner they had a jealous admiration for us Brits. Yet having spoken with various British Airways Concorde crews a common theme arose. Concorde, departing from Kennedy would sometimes be shuffled towards the back of the queue awaiting departure thus burning fuel which may have been critical when it arrived at Heathrow. Another instance — to obtain the maximum arrival rate the radar director was positioned inbound aircraft of various approach speeds at different distances to ensure that the second aircraft would be about two miles out when the first one had landed and cleared the runway. We found that for no obvious reason the runway had not been cleared on one occasion and Concorde had thus to make a missed approach and re-position for other, for another try. The puzzled radar director assured me that they had left adequate spacing when turning Concorde on to final approach. After several of these instances I looked back through the records and found that frequently aircraft ahead of Concorde, having landed were slow to clear the runway. They were often Pan American or Transworld Boeing 707s or 747s. Coincidence? Again, when I was assistant chief ATCO there was one instance where Speedbird 02 had been well placed behind a British Midland prop jet which, having landed and missed its turn off point, was continuing slowly to the next. At six miles out, ‘Speedbird 02 request landing clearance.’ From the tower, ‘Negative 02. Continue your approach. There’s traffic clearing the runway.’ At four miles out ‘Speedbird 02 requests landing clearance.’ ‘Negative 02. Continue your approach. The traffic is still clearing the runway.’ Then at two miles out, ‘Speedbird 02, I’m landing on this approach and if the other buggers are still on the runway I shall spear him.’ ‘Traffic just clearing 02. You’re now clear to land.’ I didn’t put this word on it. I said, ‘If the other aircraft is still on the runway,’ [laughs] but it was obvious that he was getting a bit — Later an apologetic Brian Walpole who was the Concorde flight captain he phoned me to explain that 02 had been much delayed when taxiing out for take-off at Kennedy. Consequently, was very low on fuel. If he couldn’t land off that approach he would have needed to fly to his nominated alternate, Gatwick and land there. Surprised, I asked him why he didn’t declare an emergency as he would have then ensured and we would have then ensured the runway was clear for his approach. He replied that knowing transmissions galvanised the press who monitored our frequencies if Concorde had declared an emergency it would have been headline news. When Brian Walpole invited me to his office upstairs for lunch I was surprised to find that the flight manager of British Airways top flight lived in a small cramped corner office with walls plastered with photographs of prominent people on Concorde flight deck. Each of them had been given a speech bubble with amusing comment. The Queen Mother was saying, ‘I could take to this. It’s much quicker than by train.’ He invited me to join him on a crew training flight in Concorde the next day. We were off just before 8am. Landed at Gander in Newfoundland, refuelled, filed a flight plan and were back at Heathrow a little after 6 pm having spent an hour in Canada. 1970, I was elected to go to the Joint Services Staff College. I became the second controller only to be accepted on to the JSSC course at Latimer which was composed of middle rank officers from the three services plus ten Commonwealth high rankers and a handful of American officers from all services. There were also three civilians. A nautical architect, a Hong Kong police superintendent and myself. Having been security cleared, vetted by two admirals and an air marshal at the Ministry of Defence in Whitehall. I enjoyed that fascinating six months course involving high level lectures from all walks of life. Government, cabinet ministers, diplomats, service chiefs, scientists, heads of security as well as military exercises including Cold War and nuclear exchanges. Being a joint service course we had the choice of outside attachments to each of the services to see how the other service worked. At that point [pause] where are we? Our — for my army visit I opted to go to Berlin which was the prize place, this was when the Wall was still there, because I was interested in their airway system and their traffic sequencing. More like Heathrow. A dozen of us in the team were housed in the brigadier’s residence overlooking the Berlin Lake which had supposedly belonged to Herman Goering, where we were briefed on the interaction with the Russians during the Cold War and the Berlin Wall. As military personnel we were allowed through Checkpoint Charlie to tour East Berlin. We found the methods used by the intelligence services most interesting. Our air force options covered a choice of a week on the Scottish RAF station where their involvement with flights in Nimrods proved very popular with our Naval members. These aircraft flew long range air sea rescues acting as command and control centres. Our Army members seemed to favour attachments to the newer Avenger and Phantom fighter units. I opted for a visit to Brize Norton to see the RAF troop handling which was coupled with a visit to RAF Valley in Anglesey to see pilot training. In Valley I was invited to fly in a Folland Gnat which brings Red Arrows fame, flown by the chief flying instructor Wing Commander Max Bacon. It was fascinating how tiny and so very light on the controls after Lancasters. Having been shown all its capabilities we did some very low flying in the designated low flying area of Snowdonia and we scared all the cattle underneath us too. Wonderful course. I remember one of our social gatherings at Pleasant Corners. Heather pulling out all the stops and Ian, back from Stow was helping. Amongst the sixteen officers at that party were Colonel Nigel Bagnall who became later chief of the general staff, an American commander in the Royal Marines who was OC flying on the American aircraft carrier Nimitz which was, I think the biggest American jet aircraft carrier they had. On which I believe he said they had seventy Phantoms. And the other member was Wing Commander Peter Harding. He was a great friend of mine. Largely of course because he was on this, on the RAF side and who later rose to the dizzy heights of Chief of the Defence Staff. So he was above the military. The lot. I also remember a Group Captain Beausoliel, who was head of Ghana. Now, it turned out that Wing Commander Peter Harding later came to grief. Do you remember his case? You probably wouldn’t. Well, he had a strong liaison with some woman who also was associated with a Russian and she said, ‘No. They couldn’t carry on their alliance.’ So, she said, ‘Well, let’s just have one meal in the Savoy.’ And as they came out she bent over and kissed him and she’d tipped off the press. And from then on that day he gave up his post. Not only as the supreme of all the armed forces but as the RAF. So, I’m sorry for Peter. But then this was the critical bit. Later in 1970, on completion of that Joint Services Staff College Course I was transferred to the Southern Division Headquarters at Heston. They felt that I was more a boffin now rather than just a practicing controller. Under a deputy director one section covered the airways and the other section covered the airfields. I became in charge of airfields and maintaining the level of air traffic control at various units. I was responsible for maintaining that and it includes non-civil aviation units in the southern part of England from — we had to look at the Scilly Isles, the Channel Isles, Bristol, Gloucester, Northampton and Norwich. Across that. And all airfields south. Along the south coast we covered Ashford, Shoreham, Goodwood, Southampton, Hamble, Leigh on Solent, Bournemouth, Exeter, Plymouth, Jersey and Guernsey. So, we had a twin Commanche at our call and what we had to do was when a new controller went to his unit, until he was valid he got his basic driving licence but he had to be checked out. So before he was validated he’d got to be checked by us and then we could sign his licence and then he could go solo. And so we had this twin Commanche and one of us would fly. I didn’t do any flying because I didn’t keep my licence going. But one of our team of four would fly and say, ‘I’ve got — lost an engine. I can’t maintain height.’ Or, ‘I have lost my RT,’ and you’d have to go to a system of one click for yes. Two clicks for no. All that sort of stuff. So —
[pause]
Test. And Ian had left Stow and was reading for his medical degree at Clare College, Cambridge. I had to occasionally fit in just to sort of keep Ian in the picture. I moved back to Heathrow as the deputy chief, acting as a stand in for the chief controller. Amongst other tasks I covered the oversight of our Radar Training Unit and including the Validation Board. As the Chairman of the Health and Safety Committee I remember we were — on the same floor as my office was the Civil Aviation Medical Centre where pilots were expected to make the grade once a year. And as such I could sometimes see them when they came past my door on the way in or out. And one or two, one I recognised as Douglas Bader whom I had seen very shortly in the POW camp. But then because he was such a naughty boy what with him always wanted to escape they sent him to Colditz. So, we had a talk and I’d got a big conference table, a big mahogany conference table in my office and it didn’t have four corner legs but it had two central legs. And he came in, having a chat and he jumped on the table to sit on the table and of course the thing upended. And I rushed around and I just caught him in time and pushed. Otherwise he’d have been a goner. So, then I said, ‘Would you like to have a look around air traffic control?’ So he said yes. So, I took him and when it came to the very steep steps up to the glasshouse I suddenly realised what a faux pas I’d made because he couldn’t have any legs to walk up there. So I said, ‘Oh, last week the Queen Mother visited us and she walked up those steps.’ So, he said, ‘Well, of course anything she can do I can do.’ Typical Douglas Bader. And he did. He pulled himself up with his arms, trailing his legs behind. And when they got on the next step off he’d go again. So, and the next time I met him was when I had a phone call from the personnel manager of [pause] I’m thinking. Shell Mex, one of the big petrol station. And they had just taken over an HS125 which is a small fast twin jet aircraft and they’d take that over for use by the board when they were going. So, he said, ‘Oh, we’re just doing a route flying stretching this out. We’re doing longer and longer legs to see what the aircraft capability is and tomorrow we’re going to Milan. Would you like to come with us?’ So, ‘Yes, please.’ So we went out there on to the tarmac and who was there to meet us was the flying, the pilot, Douglas Bader. So we recognised each other then. Anyhow, he flew us down to Milan. We stayed in the aircraft. He re-fuelled. He filed his flight plan for the return trip and on the way back this personnel manager for Shell Aviation said, ‘Oh, well let’s sample the [pause] the dish, the spread that they’ve given us.’ They’d got a refrigeration and all the rest of it so out came this on this little table and just the three of us sat down. So, halfway through or toward the end he said, ‘Well, is there anything you can think of that’s missing?’ So I jokingly said, ‘Well the wine you gave us. Those was wine glasses when they’d been used there’s no place to put them again.’ ‘Oh, quite right. The trip’s been worthwhile,’ [laughs] So, he was grateful that I’d found nowhere to store used glasses. So, that was random. There was one occasion where since I’ve often been asked whether I’ve ever needed to make instant life-saving decisions. I had one such memory. As a watch manager at Heathrow I arrived to take over the afternoon watch at 13.00 hours. I checked with my approach control supervisor that his full team had arrived and I went up to the aerodrome control. The glasshouse. One team member from my team had not arrived. And the off-going man was still on duty. Now, partly to retain the respect of my team members and partly to maintain my own validation I periodically took over an operational position. Although I was aware of the other managers policies of why keep a dog and bark yourself. At that time, with an easterly wind Heathrow was landing from the west over Windsor Castle and departures took off to the east over London. Northolt had also been required to take off in the same direction. And if they were routing going south after take-off they’d make a left turn and route around north of Heathrow and down to the west. So, I took over the [pause] the, I let the landing, the last departing man go. I took over his air departure position with six aircraft at the holding point. There was a Turkish Airline Boeing 727 who had just lined up and I had given him clearance to take off and he started to roll. He was halfway along the runway when I heard someone behind me shout, ‘Christ. The Northolt one’s turned right.’ Well, immediately, in a flash I visualised two heavily laden aircraft colliding and crashing right over London. Although almost too late I instructed my aircraft, then close to flying speed, ‘Cancel take-off. Cancel take-off.’ Thank goodness he reacted immediately. Finally stopping at the upwind end of the runway. I thanked him and asked that he clear the runway to his left. He replied, ‘Negative. Can’t move. My brakes are red hot. I require ten, twenty minutes for them to cool down.’ Another occasion the chief and I visited Chicago because they were supposed to have more aircraft flying than we did. We found the reason was that they just packed them in and expecting that they would, some, a lot of them would not make the landing. Would have to overshoot. Well, we took a pride in getting most of them down. And it turned out the, the pilot on that VC10 was, had been in A flight 103 Squadron while I’d been in B Flight. Here we are. Incidentally, in my report I included the fact that on our return Heathrow was landing on westerlies. That is aircraft arriving from the west were required to fly past the airport turning back on to the final approach at about seven or eight miles. I heard the captain, because I was on the jump seat, I heard the captain ask his first officer if he would like to have a go at final approach and landing. Even to my inexperienced eye I thought his turn on in a heavy aircraft would position us on about a two or a three mile final approach. However, he made a turn on whilst still doing his landing checks. Yet he made a spot on landing. In my report I noted his name. First Officer N Tebbit. Norman Tebbit. Barcelona — we went to Barcelona. Shell Aviation. Milan and that I’ve already told you about. The personnel manager. I recognised Douglas Bader, Chopper blades. I don’t think you’d be interested in the chopper blades. Perhaps I, as inspector of Air Traffic Control Standards for the South of England I visited Netheravon one of the several military and Naval units which operated to civil ATC standards. As they had six helicopters on a night cross country when we were there soon after they were due to return we visited their control room. Now, unbeknown to Netheravon, RAF Lyneham were practicing night parachute jumps over Salisbury Plain using C130 Hercules. As it happened the two exercises coincided. The helicopters with downward facing landing lights appeared as did the higher flying Hercules. The paras were dropped about two or three miles away. Visions of paras carving up chopper blades. Being carved up by chopper blades. So I enquired why there wasn’t any coordination. They thought it more really approached military operational standards. I got the system changed. Netheravon or, if closed Middle Wallop would coordinate movements over Salisbury Plain. Another one, Sir Laurence Whistler. He, it appeared that some industrial group were making a royal presentation of a cut glass bowl engraved by Sir Laurence Whistler. It would show Windsor Castle with the City of London and Heathrow Airport in the background. This was required by the company to present to the Queen. He said that he would need to get a perspective involving the use of a helicopter positioned over Windsor Castle. Now, I considered this would need coordination between the helicopter, departing aircraft and that I should fly in the royal helicopter to reflect the coordination. I was suitably impressed by the interior walls and ceilings of quilted with cream plastic insulation. The tables and chairs and book racks had holding copies of London Life, Illustrated London News, Tatler and Vogue. It did however have the characteristic of a helicopter vibratory flight. He was pleased with the sketches and later sent me a photo of the finished engraved bowl. I won’t go on about the time when we’ve argued with the Duke of Edinburgh. So, I could go on but it’s taking too much time. So, that was my civil one. I can’t go on about this. I think I’ve probably have mentioned this diary which I kept. We’ve got mice [laughs] This was a entry from the Royal Air Force Museum. An entry to this it was probably a thing I would get from you isn’t it? It’s 125 towing a small glider. Now, we didn’t know what the glider was. At that time it was secret and it turned out to be a Messerschmitt 163 and it was towed up into the American formations. It only had ten minutes endurance and it would decimate the Americans. And then of course it would glide down. So this was this. We didn’t know what it was. And this was a Messerschmitt 110 towing a very small tubby glider. The wingspan of ten to twelve feet. I don’t know what that was. It was some memorial with a swastika underneath. Well, I was next on the list to get a new aircraft and the fellow ahead, who’d had the last one he was shot down so I got the new one. And I went into the control tower to watch it arriving and out of that when it landed, a lovely landing, came someone in a white overall with a helmet on and then a second person. So, I was waiting for the rest of the crew but there was just these two. They came over to the control tower, came up and then the pilot then took off his helmet and it was a woman. See, we’d never heard of, and beyond that she had no navigator, no radio. She’d just ferried this. And I’ve got the book about, “The Female Few,” and there are pages and pages. And she was quite a bright girl. She went to Oxford. She was head of Somerville College and obviously did a lot of and she did learn to fly before the war. And when I met her again when I was at this Experimental Unit and we were working to see how you could increase movement rates at Heathrow. So we borrowed some civil aviation. Two of them, or four of them, I think for that. And we had a break for lunch and who should one of them? Lettice Curtis.
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Title
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Interview with James William Birchall
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Denise Boneham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ABirchallJW170816
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Pending review
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01:33:02 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James Burchill was in the ATC before he volunteered for aircrew training. He was expected to be deferred but was told he had been chosen for immediate service. On one operation he was injured and by the time he was ready for operational duties again he had lost his crew. He reformed with a crew who had lost their pilot on his second dickie flight. His aircraft was shot down and the crew became prisoners of war. While being walked to the collection point under guard he saw four RAF crew hanging from lampposts. When he was seen by the civilian population they set on him and he was rescued by members of the SS. Jim took part in the Long March and saw the bodies of men who had frozen to death. After the war Jim had an interesting career in civil aviation and became involved in the Joint Services Staff College courses and the Air Traffic Control Experimental Unit.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Nuremberg
Poland--Żagań
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Diepholz
Temporal Coverage
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1941-12-07
1942-12-18
1944-03-30
103 Squadron
12 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
crewing up
Dulag Luft
entertainment
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
lynching
Me 109
Oxford
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF hospital Rauceby
RAF Lindholme
RAF Seighford
RAF Wickenby
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
strafing
the long march
training
Typhoon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/658/8931/AWrightJDFC150608.1.mp3
2c2065e5f04be44ec28cab39fdb0646c
Dublin Core
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Title
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Wright, James
Albert James Wright DFC
A J Wright
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Wright, JDFC
Description
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An oral history interview with Jim Wright DFC (- 2022, 134563, 1503927 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as navigator with 61, 97 and 630 Squadrons.
Date
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2015-06-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SB: This is Sheila Bibb interviewing Jim Wright at his home in Abingdon on the 8th of June 2015. Jim, you say you were born in Creswell in Nottinghamshire. Could you tell me a little about your childhood? Your family.
JW: Yes. I can. I was born in Creswell Model Village which is a mining village in Nottinghamshire quite close to Worksop. My father had been a miner before the war. He and my mother were born in the Victorian age. My father was born in 1894. My mother 1896. They met whilst my father was a private soldier having volunteered like Kitchener in the First World War. And in the process of that with all his mates, mostly miners, in the Sherwood Foresters and the battalion known as the Notts and Derby’s and they went for training in Northumberland to Tynemouth, just north of the River Tyne. I remember my, my father’s headquarters was based in the Grand Hotel, a rather nice hotel in Tynemouth beach and here his mates would do their training along the beaches of Tynemouth and Whitley Bay and they would use the firing ranges alongside St Marys Lighthouse in Whitley Bay. A very prominent feature all together. During that training he met, as was quite normal in war with a young man aged twenty one, twenty two, a couple of Tyneside lasses down for the weekend or something like that. And my mother came from a little village on the River Tyne called Point Pleasant. Her father was an engine man at a port. I think he handled trains and fork lift trucks and things like that on the quayside in a shipbuilding area. But it was no trouble for young ladies in those days to travel to the seafront at Tynemouth or Whitley Bay. It was a day out, I suppose. It weren’t very far away, a few miles, and there she met my father. This would be about 1915 I think just before they went to the trenches for the first time. In 1916 my father had already had several Blighty wounds as they called it. Had been brought back to the UK, patched up and sent back again but in 1916 and I think it was on Boxing Day 1916 he and his, my mother decided to get married by special licence and they did this on the coast. Somewhere near Redcar I think. In Yorkshire is it? Or Durham? I’m not sure. They got married and off he went to the trenches without any honeymoon or anything. That was the way in those days. The next time she saw him he was only a year older but he had a military medal for gallantry and he had no left arm. What a difference that left arm made. Anyway, they eventually finished the war and they had five children. A boy, my eldest brother. A girl, my eldest sister. I was the third member and then two younger sisters. The boy and the eldest girl have passed away now. I’m still alive and so are my two younger sisters but they’re getting on. I think they’re eighty eight, eighty nine. In fact I’m not sure. And one of them is ninety now and another close by eighty seven, eighty eight. We lived initially in Creswell Model Village in Nottinghamshire but my mother never ever got used to being a miners wife and of course when my father came back to live in Creswell Model Village where I was born [pause] he could not because he had no left arm. He couldn’t work at the coal face as they used to call it and he had disappointing jobs to start with in the Creswell Colliery which was very close by the model village. And then of course they had the Great Strike didn’t they in 1926 and I can remember vividly my father with his one arm tucking me up on a cushion on the [Boss farthing bicycle?] and going out in to the woods and so forth to find branches of wood that he could carry back on a bicycle because in those days the miners stopped delivering their free coal and they were unemployed and they were out for many months. I’ve never forgotten the sight of my father when I was about three years old I suppose going out to get fuel because we had no coal. I’ve never forgotten that. My mother was a Tynesider. She came from Scottish parents up in Aberdeen somewhere but she had married in to this Tyneside family and she said, ‘I will never accept that my sons will become miners or that my daughters will become perhaps married to miners.’ There were too many accidents in the coalmining business. It was a very hazardous occupation. And sure enough she took the smaller children with her for a holiday to Whitley Bay, Tynemouth area about 1928/29 and she came back and she persuaded her husband, who was unemployed, ‘Why don’t we move to the north? We can always make a living doing bed and breakfast at the seaside.’ ‘Ok,’ says dad. My mother was the brains behind the family. Anyway, when I was about eight years old, seven maybe, we moved first of all to Cullercoats. A lovely little fishing village, a marvellous little holiday place just temporarily while they looked for somewhere better and then they ended up renting a house in Whitley Bay and then eventually they, with great courage in those days I think since they were literally destitute people they managed to buy a house in what we call North Parade very close to the seafront in Whitley Bay and my mother started with her dream of making a home for her family using bed and breakfast for holidaymakers mostly from the Glasgow area, in Whitley bay. The five children developed there. They were educated. At that time of course I was the only one, in the middle of the family, to gain entrance to the high school. A grammar school type in Whitley. Monkseaton High School. It had been built in ’14, 1914 as a grammar school and they were very proud of it in Whitley Bay but my brother and my sisters all ended up leaving school at fourteen and their main object was to get a living anywhere, butcher’s boys, dress shops, whatever. I was lucky. I managed to get a scholarship to the grammar school, the high school as they called it. And when I was sixteen I suppose, late 1938, I matriculated. I was very fortunate. I had a classics master there who gave me a [Latin?] in that year, 1938. And he said to my parents quietly, ‘Your son could do worse than go to Durham University with the intent to get a Classics degree like mine.’ He was a Northumbrian and he spoke their language. Tyneside. My parents looked at each other and they said, ‘Sorry. The two older ones are leaving the nest but the two younger ones have yet to finish, they have yet to go to school and I’m afraid we need income rather than the possibilities for the future.’ So I never did get the Classics education. I would have liked to have tried.
SB: Yes.
Instead of that, after matriculation I went for the civil service examination. A quite common thing to do with young people who were seventeen, eighteen, and I ended up, in 1939 by being a house captain, a prefect, and the school were very kind. They let me stay on in the sixth form whilst I completed these exams in January ‘39 and I ended up in April as a young civil servant, as an employment clerk. In the, what do they call it, Ministry of Labour and National Service. It’s a long time ago. And I spent, I think it was three months, at a school in Newcastle in New Bridge Street which was the headquarters of a very large employment exchange and we had a special teacher. They used to call them Third Class Officers I remember and we had about ten or twelve people from throughout Durham, Tyneside who had joined up in this Ministry of Labour and National Service as young employment clerks like me. We went to school every day. We found out what we had to do and eventually we passed our course and we started work and I remember we found out how to do it at New Bridge Street, how to do our work. And then I was posted to Ashington, a mining village and I used to commute from Whitley Bay and Monkseaton to Ashington via a little proper steam railway and then I was posted from there to Walker on Tyne and I carried on my job until, after a series of incidents, I joined the Royal Air Force. I had tried to join the Fleet Air Arm first, when I was eighteen and I had failed on eyesight tests because I wanted to be a pilot. Like all the young men in 1940. I was so impressed with Spitfires and Hurricanes but I failed in the medical test for pilot and the Board of Admiralty in London sent me away for three months and said, ‘Your eyesight is not good but it may be something that will recover. Come back.’ And in December ‘40 I went back to London and I met a lot of very impressive medical officers with lots of gold braid and things and they said, ‘Jim, I’m sorry to say that your eyesight still remains below par for pilot training but,’ they said, ‘You know you are educationally qualified to become an officer as an observer in the Navy and we need observers. Pilots are ten a penny. You can train them, you know, you just have to run around. The observer is the brains in the outfit. Would you like to be commissioned and join us?’ ‘No.’ I didn’t think I would. I was still full of aspirations to be a Spitfire pilot so I went back to my job as an employment clerk but in May ‘41 in company with two of my old schoolmates we decided we would all join the Royal Air Force and we went back to Newcastle upon Tyne to the recruiting office there and the sergeant who looked at us and said, ‘Are you interested in applying?’ ‘Yes.’ We were. ‘Ok. Well this is what you do. First of all the medical.’ I passed my medical but the other two didn’t. One whom I’d grown up with and he was my close schoolmate was a diabetic and didn’t think about it. Eventually he became the best man at my marriage later, two years later. And he died. He became blind and then died. The other one had flat feet and was called up eventually by the army and within six weeks of being posted to York I think, he died during a route march. Some mysterious heart complaint. I went to see him when I happened to be on holiday after being sick for a while. I had ten days sick leave. I went back to Whitley Bay. Still was an airman under training. I met his parents and his body was lying in there in their, in the sitting room and his mother said, ‘Would you like to see Duncan?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ I’d never seen a dead person before. Anyway, that was my introduction. By this time I was, although I was fit for pilot training in the RAF, where my eyes suddenly seemed to have mysteriously got better or something but by this time the RAF said, ‘Well I’m sorry but we’ve got thousands of pilots but we’re desperately short of navigators. If you like you can do a tour on navigation and when you’re finished you can convert to pilot training.’ So I said, ‘Ok.’ That’s my early life. Should I carry on from there?
SB: Why not?
Why not.
SB: Yes.
Well from May 1941 we had to wait. We had been accepted for training as a navigator but it wasn’t until September that year that we were called up and we went to Regents Park in London and we spent a fortnight there getting uniform, learning how to march, going for medicals of all sorts. I remember everyone laughed about at the time but I remember being in a long line of young men and they were tall, fat, thin, short. All kinds of people. But they were generally speaking physically fit. Generally speaking. They needed putting into shape but medically they were fit. A long line of them and a young medical officer would come with a stick and, ‘Drop your trousers, the whole lot.’ Free from infection they called it. Everyone remembers this. It was the same for them all. Anyway, after a fortnight we were posted to Catterick in Yorkshire for what they called initial training wing. Catterick was interesting because it was also the home of army training at a very big army depot at Catterick but sixty of us ended up at RAF Catterick in a special little, what do they call it, unit of its own with its own squadron leader, education officer and flight sergeant who was a disciplinarian and maybe a couple of teachers to teach the basics of flying and so on but we got to a separate unit. We were sent to live in a country house which had been specially requisitioned for the purpose and we slept there and our flight sergeant would march us every morning four miles there. Good for you those were the terms. Smarten up. And then four miles back again. We did everything on the camp. We just slept there. But of course it was that time of year. Wintertime. And apart from an army Lysander unit, that’s an army air corp, they had a Beaufighter unit, night fighters, there and one day the station commander said to the station warrant officer, ‘I want you to organise snow clearance tonight.’ Big forecast. Snow. ‘I want the airfield swept so that the Beaufighters can operate.’ ‘Yes, sir.’ But the station warrant officer was a busy man. In RAF terms he was a very important man. He commanded all the people in the manpower department of the station. He was the boss. The station commander knew it, the station warrant officer knew it, everybody else knew it and the station warrant officer came to my squadron leader in the Initial Training Wing Department and he said, ‘Sir, with great respect, my chaps work night and day doing their ordinary work on the airfield. I can’t really expect them all to turn out to do snow clearing initially until I have to.’ But, ‘Sir, with respect your chaps are just [?]. They are, to some extent, surplus at the moment for the next few days so I’m going to ask you if you wouldn’t mind I want your fifty trainees to start the snow clearing tonight.’ So we did. So we all got our brooms and our shuttles and of course it snowed and snowed and we got soaking wet but we still had to march because we had nowhere else to sleep. After two or three days of this I got a cold. It was a nasty cold. I was used to getting colds in the northeast but this was a bad one because we were literally walking with wet clothes, no heat, no nothing and one of my mates in the morning time said to me, ‘Jim, you don’t look very good.’ I said, ‘No, I feel awful.’ He said, ‘I’ll go and have a word with the flight sergeant.’ He went to the flight sergeant who had a little room all of his own and we used to sleep up and down in great big rooms and things and he said to the flight sergeant, ‘Jim Wright’s not very well.’ ‘So what,’ said the flight sergeant? ‘Well, could you fix transport or something for him?’ ‘I aint got any transport.’ he said. ‘We walk. I’m sorry. If he can walk he will.’ And we marched four miles back. Of course I reported to sick quarters and the Doc took one look at me and he said, ‘You’ve got a temperature of a hundred and four young man.’ ‘Oh yes?’ I said. ‘How do you feel?’ ‘Awful.’ He said, ‘I’m sending you to Catterick army camp hospital immediately. I think you’ve got bronchial pneumonia.’ ‘Thank you, sir.’ So I ended up in the army hospital. I never saw anything but the hospital beds. And after ten days I think they used to have something called [metacreme?] but nothing like penicillin or anything antibiotics. It was some awful thing that turns you yellow I think. But in the end I got better and they said, ‘We’re going to send you off on ten days sick leave. Get all railway warrants and rations and things.’ Well I’d only been in the air force for two or three months and I didn’t really know anything about anything but I was so pleased with the railway warrant to go home in comfort rather than hitching or anything like that and my mother was so grateful to get the rations. Butter and things like that. Not important to me but important to her. Anyway, I recovered, finished our ITW training and we went off to Eastbourne College on the south coast at Eastbourne and we, we stayed at this famous Grand Hotel. I’d heard radio programmes, I knew, on Sunday afternoons I think but for the first time I was introduced to what it was like to actually live in a great big hotel on the seafront at Eastbourne. It was very interesting. Can we just stop? Stop for a minute.
[pause]
JW: Can we just have the last sentence about Eastbourne? Eastbourne College we were going to.
SB: Hang on. Ok.
JW: We were accommodated.
SB: Yeah you were accommodated.
JW: Yeah.
SB: It’s alright
JW: Ok.
SB: That’s it.
JW: Ready. When you are
SB: Yeah. Ok.
JW: Eastbourne was very interesting. I’d never been to the south coast before. It would seem that at this time in 1941 a lot of the holiday areas on the south coast within ten miles had been more or less taken over by the government. The hotels had been taken over for army, navy, air force units quite often. The basic residents could stay. But it was, it had an awful lot of armed forces in it. Anyway, in Eastbourne, Eastbourne College was a recognised independent school and the government had taken it over. It had moved somewhere else. And they used it for what we call elementary air navigation school training. This was a three month course. Longer than the ITW one. And I remember some of my mates being desperate for cigarettes. People, I don’t think people today realise the extent to which smoking cigarettes, pipe smoking had taken over the nation. People In films were smoking. Everybody thought it was normal to smoke but if they were addicts as some of our young men were this was a very sad thing for them because they couldn’t get cigarettes that they used to be able to buy twenty whenever they wanted. At this time one of my young friends he was desperate for cigarettes and so I used to join the queue with him when he went hunting for cigarette shops, for rations and things and I said to Nobby, ‘Why don’t you just give up?’ ‘Can’t,’ he said. So I would go and buy the ration that was there. It may be ten cigarettes sometimes. They were just goose woodbines in a house and I’d hand them to Nobby and that would keep him happy for a while until the next lot. Cigarette smoking became a problem in the world. It still is. Anyway, we would do, the fifty of us, we would do our training within the Eastbourne College. Tailor made for the job really. Just like school. It was just like school. And they taught us the basics of navigation from the air. They gave us sextants and we said, ‘What do we do with these?’ ‘Ah well,’ they said, ‘When you go home tonight we would like you to practice taking shots of the moon if it’s there. The stars if you can find them.’ This was later on in the course when it developed and we found out what a sextant was, how to use it, air almanacs and things like that all concerned with navigation when you were high up, couldn’t see the ground and your only means of navigation were astro-navigation. Anyway, we used at night time to take our sextants home to the Grand Hotel with us and then operate in pairs in a backstreet just off the seafront and we would, one of us would take notes while the other one actually located the star and took a shot and if you were within a hundred miles of Eastbourne you were doing very well [laughs]. It was a very good training which you had to fall on later but whilst we were there it was beginning spring and the weather was improving and on Wednesday afternoons we were told to go and get fit. Cross country runs, play football, play tennis or skive as they used to call it if you wanted to by saying, ‘I’m a golfer. I’ll go on the golf course.’ ‘Well yes that’s a sport. Yes. Yes you can do that.’ And this man for whom I used to get cigarettes, Nobby, we borrowed, from the professional at the club, some old clubs and a few old balls and we enjoyed the fresh air at the top of the cliff on Eastbourne Golf Course. And while we were pottering about on the very first day I remember it was a lovely summer day. Nice to be alive. It was lovely. Sunshine and blue sky. I remember Nobby saying, ‘Jim, look.’ And there were a pair of ME109s. We knew they were ME109s because we’d done aircraft recognition and we knew. What’s more you could see the Nazi cross on the side of the aeroplane and they were carefree, the pair of them. You could see them. They were only fifteen minutes away from France at the most. From their airfields. And they came over our heads. We said, ‘That won’t bother us. They’re not going to shoot us. They’re wasting their time.’ Well, they turned around and they headed for Eastbourne Railway Station and with their rockets, machine gun fire, cannon fire raked the station and having done a fair bit of damage they disappeared. Nobody came from anywhere to help them or shoot them down or anything. They quite calmly trundled off back to their base in France. That was our very first introduction to ME109s. I’ve never forgotten it. At the end of the course the fifty of us were all posted to Heaton Park in Manchester I think it was. It was a kind of a settling in place for trainee pilots, navigators and so on whilst they waited for the next step in their training. All these people at Heaton Park were going overseas. They could go, some to Rhodesia, they could go to Canada. Some of them even went to Florida to fly with Pan America airfield, Pan America Airways. Anyway, we used to, we used to report every morning at 8 o’clock to see if any of us were wanted to go on convoys or anything like that and every day no news for us so we just idled away again and we got fed up with this. We got tired of waiting and hanging around and one of my friend’s, a chap called Mike Ward said, ‘Jim, would you like to nip into York to see my folks?’ So I said, ‘What’s the plan?’ He said, ‘Well we’ll check up on the Friday morning and if there’s no call out for anywhere we could quietly nip in and get a ticket to York on the railway and we’ll be back by Sunday, by Sunday night ready for Monday morning.’ ‘Sounds good to me.’ I said. So we stuck our necks out and we did this and we got to York and I met Spike’s family. His father owned a garage and Mike was one of these chaps who knew about motorcars. How to drive them. And he also had farmer relatives with farms and he was also familiar too with 22 rifles and shotguns and things. He was way ahead of me. I enjoyed meeting his family. It was nice. But on the way back we got to Crewe Station I think it was. I think we had to change at Crewe and a couple of innocent looking young RAF special police, corporals. Corporal was a powerful man in the RAF when you were just an airman. They sauntered up to us looked us up and down. They always work in pairs these people. But Mike and I were, were happy. We said, ‘Yes, I’m afraid, yeah s we are travelling. We’re going back to base.’ ‘Where’s that?’ They said. ‘Oh Heaton Park.’ ‘Oh. What are you doing now then?’ ‘Oh well we’ve just been to see.’ ‘I see. Have you got your pass?’ ‘Well no.’ ‘Well I’m sorry,’ they said, ‘But that means you’re absent without leave.’ AWL. Mike and I have always had in our service record absent without leave. One day’s pay forfeit. We’ve never forgotten it. Never forgotten it. Anyway, we eventually were sent off. Some of us, we didn’t all go to Canada. Several of us were sent to Pan American Airways in Florida. And we envied them. Oh that must be nice. Florida. Lovely. We’d heard of Florida and we had visions of summer holidays on the beach. Anyway, we didn’t hear any more about those chaps. They disappeared. And we went in turn, I think about twenty five of us, I’m not sure we were posted to Number 13 Air Navigation School at a place called Port Albert near Goderich near on the coast of Lake Huron in Ontario. We sailed in a convoy. I remember the name of the boat it was the SS Letitia. Other people met Letitia at different times during the war as a troopship but for seven days we went up and down and we were seasick just like everybody else because we were not sailors but we made it. We made it to Halifax in Nova Scotia and from there we went on by train and it seemed to be forever. I don’t know how long it was. Two or three days I think. But we ended up anyway at this navigation training school. I think it lasted from about May or June or July I’m not sure until November so there was a time when we were there when we were taken away from our RAF blue as we called the field dress and we were put into the tropical khaki uniform. Shorts and things like that. To cut a long story short I became top of the course and Mike my friend became second. And we had a young Scotsman friend called Scotty Turner who came third and a much more mature chap called Williamson with a moustache. A family man. He must have been in his thirties. You have to remember that most of us were just twenty, twenty one. Which was the about the average age for, for the time. Anyway we also had a group of free French on our course attached. They spoke English when they had to but they spoke their own natural language French when they were off duty. But I don’t know whatever happened to those six free French. Two of them were commissioned. One was a captain and the other one was I think a sub lieutenant. I’m not sure what. Whether they were air force or navy I can’t remember now and the other four were non-commissioned people. Petty officers or something like that. I never saw or heard of them again. Anyway, we had a party at the end of the course and we were given sergeant’s stripes and we pinned them on using our little machinery. We all had our needles and threads and things so we could pin them on and we had a party at the hotel and the next day we were put on a train and all the way up through Ontario, through Quebec, through New Brunswick and we should have gone to Nova Scotia to Halifax but when we got to Moncton on the railway line, it was a stop of some sort there anyway, and we had a couple of Royal Canadian Air Force sergeants approach our party and they said, ‘Are you just coming from, from your training at Goderich?’ ‘Yes,’ we said. ‘What do you want to know for?’ We thought we might have done something wrong. ‘Oh, it’s nothing wrong,’ they said, ‘But, I need these four people. I need these four. Wright, Ward, Williamson, Turner.’ ‘What do you want them for?’ ‘You lucky chaps are going to be commissioned. You can throw away your sergeant’s stripes.’ ‘Oh yeah, that’s very interesting.’ ‘You will be taken by transport to the Royal Canadian Air Force station at Moncton,’ which is just on the outskirts, ‘And there you will go through commissioning procedure. The rest of them are on the way to Halifax. And home.’ We were very pleased about this of course but we had to hang about a bit. I think it was, this was sometime, somewhere in early November and I think it was in early December when we finally were kitted out, uniforms, and were sent on our way to Halifax. For starters of course we were commissioned and that made a tremendous difference. Life as an airman whether you’re UT aircrew or just newly promoted to sergeant was an entirely different matter than if you were pilot officer. Life changed. And so we found that we had better facilities on the train. And when we got to Halifax they said, ‘Oh yes. You’ve got to report to the troop ship and it happens to be the Queen Elizabeth.’ We were overjoyed. We’ll never forget, well I will never forget that four day journey at top speed, without convoys, too fast for the submarines and we got back home to the UK in four days. It was a marvellous experience. I’ve still got copies of the ship’s newspaper, “The Convoy,” now but I’ve had them in an old scrapbook for seventy five years or something. They used to print a daily account in the, in this marvellous liner the Queen Elizabeth which carried thousands of people of course and they would give a daily account of what was happening in the world in the desert, and the Atlantic and the wherever and of course it was important because if I’ve got it right America had just had Pearl Harbour in December ‘41 and this was a year later so the fact that the Americans were in the war made a great difference and this would be reported in those newspapers. Anyway, we had disembarkation leave. I think we all went home for ten days or seven days leave I think. And we were sent to Harrogate in Yorkshire. All of us were sent to Harrogate. It’s a big resettlement unit in a lovely market town miles from London and we were very lucky because not only was it a relatively peaceful place Harrogate but it had it had swimming pools, dance halls, it had beautiful music halls and excellent gardens and a lovely location for walking in the countryside. We were so lucky. The important thing of course for most young twenty one, twenty two year olds was that there were a lot of girls there. The girls came because the government had decided, just before the war, to send a lot of their civil servants from London to a more peaceful place where they could get on with the work in Harrogate and a lot of these girls were civil servants just like I used to be and the same kind of age group. Clerks in the air ministry, contract farms was where I met them and Mike Ward and I were I think on our first day. We were staying in the Queen Hotel just off the Stray in Harrogate. A lovely hotel. The sergeants were in a different hotels, Imperial and places like that but we had an invitation from reception of the Queen Hotel with the Women’s Voluntary Service accept some of you to come and have a cup and a bit of cake, that sort of thing, in a local church hall and we said, ‘Well, why not.’ And the first girl I met was the one I married over two years later. A blond, blue eyed girl who was a little older than I was. Just a little. Her landlady, ‘cause by this time a lot of the girls had moved from being residents in a lady’s college to being shipped out into the local community where they were divided into local houses and looked after themselves in ordinary houses and my future wife’s landlady was also a member of the WVS Women’s Voluntary Service and they were forever giving me cups of tea and cakes and things to soldiers, sailors and airmen. Whoever they were. On this occasion she had taken my future wife with her to this church hall and when, when David Mike Ward and I arrived this WVS lady said, ‘I’d like you to meet a couple of young ladies.’ You’ll do. And Mike and I met these two young ladies. I don’t know if Mike was that interested but I was and I stayed interested for two years. But of course I was a very straightforward young, naïve young man. I believed in marriage. I also believed that it was a sheer waste of time to contemplate marriage in a Lancaster or a Wellington and that was firmly understood. So we’d keep in touch by letter wherever I was and when the adjutant of the squadron, my last squadron called me in and said, ‘Jim. You’re finished.’ And I said [laughs], ‘What do you mean finished?’ He said, ‘Your days of operational flying are over young man.’ I communicated this to my girlfriend. I went to see her, sought her hand in marriage and she agreed. So that was the picture. Now my friend Mike Ward had been lucky enough to meet a charming young lady during our three months in Canada. We had, we had been allowed to hitch to Detroit at weekends. And on our very first visit we met some people of Scottish origin who had friends. They were all concerned with motoring I think because Detroit was a fabulous manufacturing of cars place. They had problems of course because black people were not allowed to mix in transport or accommodation. And you had to be very careful of this in Detroit in 1942. Anyway, one of their Scottish friends would put up Mike and I. They lived in a great big apartment block and the man involved was the manager of this block. He and his wife supervised all the arrangements for car parking and renting apartments and so on and their family lived in quite a spacious apartment and we met a girl there called Jeanette McDonald. A familiar name because Jeanette McDonald happened to be the name of a singing star at the time. Nelson Eddie was her partner. I remember her very well. The young Jeanette McDonald, the American girl was some kind of a Scottish dancing champion. You know used to twiddle about in the way that people with these Scottish views people do. In America they were very keen on this and would have state championships and things like that and young Jeanette was one of these. They were a very charming family and we got to know them very well during our three months there. But some of their American friends that we also would stay with and have breakfast with introduced us to pancakes and syrup and things like that. They had another young lass and she was rather like the American Doris Day. The girl next door. Bubbly. Mike fell for this girl in a big way and I often wonder, wondered because we got split up eventually and I, I lost touch with Mike and I often used to wonder whether he was going to go back to America for this girl. She was a lovely lass. Very much like Doris Day. Bubbly. Anyway, Jeanette McDonald was not for me but Mike I thought might have been very interested in this young lass who lived at some address in Bueno Vista Drive, Detroit. I’ve never forgotten the name. It was an interesting one. An enormous number like eleven hundred and twenty two. When we, when we finished our course we were presented with our observer badge. That was like a little O observer badge. They don’t use them anymore. It was replaced eventually by a bomb aimer or a navigator. When, when we were trained in Canada we did both jobs. We could choose either. I always stayed with the navigation side and so did Mike. Unfortunately, Mike and his crew were killed in 1944. He had started off doing navigation training. We’d flown in little Tiger Moths really just to get acclimatised to British weather really. I think in January ‘43 that was our first course. A month at Scone in Scotland where pilots just with their fresh pilot wings up would sit in the front cockpit and the navigators would sit in the back cockpit. The pilots of course would say, ‘If you want to play with this thing you’re welcome. Off you go.’ And so we would play [?] and we got a lot of fun. And at the end I remember, after about half an hour I would say to my pilot on this little Gosport tube communication system they had there. I’d say, ‘I think we ought to go back home now don’t you?’ ‘Oh I suppose so. Where are we?’ And I’d say, ‘Don’t you know?’ ‘Well, no. I thought you were the navigator, you’d know where we were.’ I thought he must be joking. I’d been playing with the aeroplane for half an hour and I thoroughly enjoyed it but I’d no idea where we are and it was a bit late to find out. It was quite amusing. I remember he, this particular pilot, made an emergency landing at an airfield. Not ours. Got some fuel in it and then we flew it back and this time I made sure I knew where I was. But having done that month on Tiger Moths in January we then went back to Harrogate where we met with old girlfriends or whatever and we waited for the next course. And then we’d go, have a month, at Skegness I think it was. Butlin’s holiday camp on the Yorkshire coast. They had accommodation of course. It was a holiday camp area. There were golf courses. And we wore army uniform and big boots and we had 303 rifles and they would take us out at night and throw thunder flashers at us to get us used to being possibly escape and evasion on the continent. It was all carefully planned. They knew what they were doing. Anyway, a month in army uniform made us fit and after that we went and did some Anson flying at Barrow in Furness. Very useful because the weather in the Irish Sea was notorious. Thunder storms, rain, snow, so we did more flying and a bit more navigation training and got used to flying in Ansons. Not in blue sky conditions but in United Kingdom weather conditions and that was different. But eventually our navigation training was finished and we were all posted to our, what we called an Operational Training Unit. In my case Mike and I went to Upper Heyford just not far north of Oxford. And when we arrived because we were commissioned we went to the officers mess and we met a bunch of fairly fresh flying officer ranked commissioned pilots who had also arrived for the their Operational Training Unit and for the first time they stopped being individual pilots and individual navigators, wireless operators, gunners and their purpose at Upper Heyford was to learn to fly as a Wellington bomber crew and that took ten weeks. It was a different way of life. We stopped being under training as navigators and we learned to become an operational bomber crew. Five of us, pilot, navigator no we didn’t have a flight engineer and we didn’t have a, ah pilot, navigator, wireless operator and bomb aimer and rear gunner. We didn’t need a mid-upper gunner and we didn’t need a flight engineer to fly the Wellington. But we certainly learned the rudiments of how to operate a bomber crew. For the first time in our lives we lived as a crew. Relaxed together. We tried, we tried as far as we could to live together. With the pilot and navigator both commissioned we could do that and the others were all sergeants. The bomb aimer, the wireless operator and the gunner but they, they gelled together. The NCOs stuck together. They ate together, they went to the same billet, sergeant’s mess. Ken Ames and I became firm friends. It was the way that it was in those days. There was a loyalty between individual crew members. It was a most unusual way to become a bomber crew because what happened was I teamed up with my pilot Ken Ames in the officer’s mess the night before. We all met in a big hangar. Mike did exactly the same. He met a northern Irishman called Derek [Wray] I remember. The following morning we were all there at 8 o’clock in the morning and wing commander flying said, ‘Gentlemen,’ there were hundreds of people in this hangar. He said, ‘You are going to find your own crews. I want every pilot to come back to me at the end of the day and tell me the names, ranks and numbers of his crew. That’s a job for all the pilots but how you sort yourselves out is a matter for you.’ We got some surprise because we’d never seen this before. This was quite new. Ok. So we got our brief, we got our marching orders, go away, ‘Find yourselves crew members. We don’t care how you do it. All I want by 4 o’clock today is a crew with a pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and rear gunner.’ Ken, Ken Ames said, ‘Well you and I are the core.’ ‘Yeah. That’s right.’ ‘I will go and find a rear gunner. You go and find a bomb aimer.’ And I did that. I found an old man aged thirty two with ruddy cheeks and grey hair and I liked the look of him and I chatted him up and said, ‘Well I’ve got a pilot. I’m a navigator,’ and I said, ‘Would you like to be our bomb aimer?’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘I’d like to meet the pilot of course but otherwise that’s fine.’ And Ken went and he found a rear gunner and he found he was an ex Irish Guardsman. As a soldier used to guns, used to being told what to do and so on but this man had been asked by the army if they would volunteer to become a gunner in the air force. And they jumped at it because it was much better pay. They would become sergeants straight away instead of privates in the army and they would get flying [fame] There was an element of flying [fame] when you were a sergeant in the flying business. So Paddy became our rear gunner. Paddy Paul. My, my selection as bomb aimer had been an insurance agent for many years and was married and had two children. He was ten years older than we were but he was also a crossword fiend which I found out and he was also a very keen rock climber using fingers and toes. He was also a very keen bird watcher. And he had patience and a lovely smile. We were sold. We were very happy. We found, we found a wireless operator but I think for some reason we had to change him. We did start flying with him and I remember saying, this man was called Jim, I said, well, no he was called Albert and I said, ‘Well I’m called Albert as well but if you like I will change my name to Jim.’ I never really liked being Albert really. It was my old man’s best man in the, in the trenches that had made me called Albert but I’ve got James and I’m quite happy to be Jim. And so I settled to Jim. And we ended up with an Australian wireless operator from Toowoomba in Queensland who had been around a long time because he was already a flight sergeant. That made a lot of difference of a year. He’d been around somewhere. Tex we called him because his first name was called Harvey. And we said, ‘We can’t call you Harvey.’ ‘Ok,’ he said, ‘Tex.’ But when you’re on intercom you don’t want fancy names, you want short, sharp ones and we, we soon learned of course that this idea that some people in the photography film world had that you would say on intercom, ‘Pilot from mid-upper gunner,’ or ‘wireless operator from navigator.’ You haven’t got time for all that. It’s Ken, Jim, Paddy. That’s it. You soon got to know the names and you soon knew who was who ‘cause all the names were different. So Ken was the pilot, Jim was the navigator, Tom was the bomb aimer, Paddy was the rear gunner and Tex was the wireless operator. Five people. We were very lucky I suppose because four of those five people survived till the end. Tex unfortunately, our wireless operator from Toowoomba, decided after getting a DFC and having done a whole first tour decided on our last squadron, 97, the Pathfinders, that on a particular day when a daylight operation was scheduled and our crew were not on it, not on the ops order, he said, ‘Oh I’d like to go. I’ll go with a skipper called Baker, Flight Lieutenant Baker. One of my Australian mates as a squadron leader he’d want to go as well,’ so on that aircraft there were nine people instead of seven which seemed to happen sometimes and because it was a daylight trip Tex decided that this was a bit of war that he would like to have a look at. Doing it in daylight. When he was not a wireless operator he was going to man a gun. And of course on that particular aircraft was shot down and I think some of the people escaped and became prisoners of war but Tex was killed and that was in July ‘44. I never did find out whether Tex had got a pathfinder badge. Didn’t make any difference anyway. He was dead. He’s buried in Bayeux War Cemetery. But Paddy the rear gunner did all the trips. Completed a second tour. Was commissioned. He had a DFM. He was commissioned at the end of it all and he went to the Far East to take part in what they called Tiger Force. I never saw him again. Tom Savage the bomb aimer had a DFM at the end of the first tour. When it was all over he was commissioned as well but stayed on at Coningsby to help the station armaments officer with the problems that they had at that time and he stayed until demob. I saw him again later. He met my wife. He was a cricket man as well and we used to meet up in the years after the war, many years, when I was stationed somewhere in the north like Middleton St George or Ouston in Northumberland, we would contact Tom and his family. By that time we had three [more families. Three more.] and his family and we would walk on Hadrian’s Wall. We would meet halfway and meet and have a, have a party. The last time I saw Tom would be about 1990 I think. It was a day when he was watching the cricket in the kitchen and the England test team were playing Australia and the English captain, what was his name? I can’t remember for the moment. The English captain scored three hundred and thirty three not out. I remember. And Tom was listening with delight to all this on the radio or the television I can’t remember now and he died. He was a lovely man. Yes. So, Tex had died. The young engineer and the young mid upper gunner who came to us especially when we became a Lancaster crew for the first time they, they both disappeared. I don’t know what happened to them. I think, one I know was invalided out in to civvy street and I met or contacted his widow eventually many years later and I discovered that yes the head wounds that he had got during a trip to [Castellon] on 61 squadron which kept me in hospital for two months brought home the results that he was found unfit to fly and he went back to civvy street and when he was in civvy street during the war he used to work on aircraft engines at some, nearby. We never did find where he came from. He’d been a garage mechanic you see. He was only eighteen. Ans he was only eighteen when he joined us but he was only with us for a few weeks and we never saw him again but I, I tracked him down long, long after the war and his widow told me that yes they’d got married, he’d earned a living as a ground engineer during the war and after the war he managed to get his medical back again and had a job, taken a job at Stansted flying Yorks all over the world. Thousands of miles of flying, fitting new aircraft engines to Yorks and Lancastrians wherever they needed them and he had three children I think it was but I never found any more about him. I have no idea what happened to the mid-upper gunner. I know he never flew with us again so presumably he had disappeared from active service. I’ve no idea. Now what else was I going to tell you?
SB: Do you want to tell me a little about some of your operations?
JW: About the operations. Yes.
SB: Yes.
JW: Well after we’d finished at Upper Heyford on the Wellingtons we had become a very efficient bomber crew. It was the little things like taking a little racing pigeon in a little cardboard box and we would sometimes do what we called nickel flights. That’s when we went very close to the French coast where we could get shot down by Germans but you were still on your training flight and you’d note the actual position that you had worked out where you were and you would write it down on a little bit of special paper which you’d put on to the pigeon’s leg. Elastic held there a little capsule and you would take the pigeon gingerly down to the back end of the Wellington and you’d get Paddy to turn his guns away and you would throw the pigeon out and the pigeon in the dark would sort itself out and by a miracle of bird navigation would get back to Upper Heyford long before we did [laughs]. And the purpose of that was to make sure that if the aircraft was shot down the pigeon would get back and that would be the last known position of that Wellington before it disappeared. That was the whole point. Of course we never did it in Lancasters. I never saw that again. But we did, we did manage to gel as a crew because we could talk to each other. We developed our own technique of how we could fly this crew together. I would tell the pilot that in certain circumstances if anything went wrong he should always bear in mind that if he could see the sky he could see the Great Bear and he’d say, ‘What’s the Great Bear?’ And I would explain. And I’d say find Polaris the Pole star. The Great Bear will wonder around different regions at different time but the Pole star once you found it it was a very good thing. It was north. And I’d explain to the pilot that wherever you were in Germany you had to come back on a westerly heading to get back to the UK and the best way you could do that was to keep the pole star on the right. He never faltered and there was one occasion when we went to Castle when he found it very useful ‘cause he remembered it. Pilots quite often leave it to the navigator completely but I used to talk to Ken. We were the same age. We liked the same things. And I used to say that there were some things that were important and I used to talk to him about the necessity for every pair of eyes in the aircraft to come back to where it all happened on the navigators brief on his board. I used to explain to everyone how important it was that if they saw a coastline, a bridge, an important navigation feature on the ground they should tell me. They should tell me in time for me to make use of it exactly when it happened so I could check. Crossing a beach, crossing a railway line, a bridge, whatever you could see. I said, ‘I know I’ve Gee and I’ve got H2S, I’ve got radar. Yes I’ve got all these things but they don’t always work and they are sometimes out of range,’ and so I used to explain. I used to explain to our wireless operator how important it was that when I wanted bearings from the radio why I wanted them, when I wanted them and I wanted them at a precise time. I wanted, I explained why these things were important to the navigator. And everyone in the crew, my crew anyway because every crew was different. I wanted everyone to know that every bit of information that they could see was vital as far as I was concerned if it had anything to do with the navigation of the aircraft, the Lancaster, the Wellington, whatever it was. We got on fine. I remember one occasion when we were doing a long ten hour cross country in a Wellington from Upper Heyford and the weather was filthy. It was nothing like what had been forecast. I remember half way through the trip, about four or five hours I said to them on the intercom chaps you might be interested to know that we should be turning from Carlisle onto another heading but I said I can’t tell you why but right now we’re over Bristol. You could hear a penny drop in all the ears. ‘What’s Jim talking about?’ I said, ‘The weather forecast was rubbish. I now want Tex to give me a QDM for Upper Heyford and we’re going to fly back to base. We’re going to forget the rest of the trip because the weather is so bad and the winds are so hard to find that that’s the only thing we can do.’ I think my crew discovered that they had a navigator who was honest and was telling them what the truth of the matter was. A lot of other aircraft that night would have ended up in being diverted, got, they’d got just as lost as we were. This sort of thing used to happen but I think that that crew as a Wellington crew decided that Jim Wright was the man that they wanted to stay with and that’s why later on in life when we were a Lancaster crew they decided that if Jim Wright was needing hospital treatment but if it was possible they would wait for him to come back. Being what happened. Not every navigator was as lucky as that. I was lucky. And in the end so were they. We finished. We managed to finish. We lost a few of ours but you see navigation to me was a puzzle like a crossword puzzle. You had the clues but you needed to make use of everything you could to solve problems and that’s what navigation was. I also remember one occasion when we went to Nuremberg. Now, Nuremberg is famous for being one operation in which we lost a hundred aircraft and the reason for it was straightforward. The Jetstream that people talk about in the weather forecast today as a casual thing that means something and they explain the weather forecast, tries to explain what a Jetstream is but in 1943/44 no one had heard about a Jetstream. They didn’t know what it was. But as a wind finder on 630 squadron when we went to Nuremberg my job was to find the winds and send them back through the wireless operator to Group so that they could marshal the latest thing that they’d found Instead of guessing what the winds were they would find what the real winds were and I was finding winds at one stage that I couldn’t believe but I had enough faith in my ability to say to my wireless operator, ‘I know that these are astonishing winds. Don’t be surprised but they’re right.’ The winds were from the northeast at about a hundred and forty five knots at twenty thousand feet and I sent these winds back and the boys back at base and at Group, the weather chaps, they looked at all the winds that were coming. Now, half of the wind finders, these are all specially chosen navigators would look at the winds they were finding and said, ‘I don’t believe it. I don’t believe it. I’ll halve it. I’ll go as far as eighty.’ They didn’t have enough courage to tell the truth but we lost a hundred aeroplanes. Quite often the four engine ones because at that time most of the guys were in four engined guys, Halifax’s. I think we’d already thrown away the Stirlings so all, all four engined guys on Nuremberg were in the same boat. When the winds were sorted out at base and they sent back a revised lot of winds they were nowhere near the real ones and so not only did the searchlights, the ackack and the night fighters do their normal thirty or forty aircraft shot down but the other sixty aircraft found that because they’d run out of fuel they ditched in the North Sea, they ditched in the Baltic, they ditched everywhere. Quite often these were the people whose names ended up on Runnymede Memorial, missing, but their aircraft were never heard of again. Navigation was so important and the scientists did their best but the German scientists were also very clever. So I’m afraid quite often the Germans made use of the navigational equipment that we did have and they took it. They found out how it worked and they used it to their advantage to warn their night fighters. So that some of the equipment that we thought were being useful to RAF bombers turned out in fact to be more useful to the enemy. They used to track, using our equipment in our aircraft, so that their night fighters could latch on to us. We didn’t know about that at the time and I don’t think Butch Harris was initially aware about it but when he did find out he had to do some serious thinking. How much risk can you take with your bomber force? It was a very difficult world. The men who flew in bombers in Bomber Command trusted Bomber Harris. They knew he had a difficult job to do. They knew that their chances of survival were less than one in two. They knew that. But they also knew that if you had to win the war you had to do it. You had to do what he wanted to do and I don’t remember anyone in any of the squadrons I flew with who argued with Bomber Harris. They knew. They knew that the only way to win was to win the war. It was them or us. It was all out war. Anyway, that was the end of my operational flying on three squadrons and when it was over and the adjutant said, ‘You’re finished.’ He sent me to a place called Brackla in Scotland and I was there with Paddy the rear gunner. It was the Redistributional Resettlement Unit. Ken Ames was sent to be an instructor on a Lancaster Finishing School at Wickenby. Tom, the bomb aimer ended up at, on the ground but commissioned and quite happy and he survived the war. Paddy ended up commissioned as a gunner and went to the Far East and he survived that. He died later on, in Nottingham I think. I never saw him again. Tex, the wireless operator had been killed in ‘44. But I, I remember being in the 97 squadron adjutant’s office when he said I was finished with operational flying and there was a little card on his desk and it said if you are tired and would like a rest why don’t you come and have a week or ten days in a [Lastrian?] house in Scotland. It’s peaceful and it’s quiet. And I made a note of the telephone number [Talland 35?]. Miles from anywhere, he said. And I said to the adjutant, ‘How do you think this place is?’ ‘Don’t know.’ he said. ‘All the information I’ve got’s on the card. It’s for chaps who need a rest from operations.’ And I remember looking up this man. He was a retired air commodore and I said, ‘I’ve just been told that I’m finished with operational flying.’ ‘Oh well done,’ he said. ‘I’m thinking of getting married.’ ‘Good idea,’ he said. ‘Come back and talk to me when you’ve made the arrangements. You can have the honeymoon up there.’ ‘Good thinking,’ I said. So I talked to my wife about it about this. I talked to her before she were married. And we agreed. Family friends said, ‘But Jim, Aberdeenshire is a hell of a long way away from Whitley Bay which is because your wife’s in a V1, V2 area she can’t get married down there. You’re going to have to get married in Whitley Bay. And when you get married by the time it’s all over you won’t be able to get to [?]. So, we happen to know of a little hotel in Edinburgh that we met years ago and I’m sure you’ll be alright there for your first night and then you could carry on to Aberdeenshire afterwards for your honeymoon.’ And that’s what we did. That’s what we did. Later on I met up with Ken Ames and his wife after the war and we had a holiday together up there. The four of us. The war was over and poor Ken he’d married three times in the end and he died at the age of fifty five. Fifty five. I’m ninety, nearly ninety three now. What a waste. He was a nice man. Eight years later I’d lost touch with him completely. I’d finished my, my war, I’d finished my post-war service and I was interested in a campaign medal for Bomber Command. And in 2008 the Editor of the Sunday Express was running a series of articles about Bomber Command and he called them heroes. And he got ten thousand letters from people into his office as Editor saying, ‘We agree with you.’ And he sent this parcels of letters and things to 10 Downing Street, to Gordon Brown, on the 2nd of July 2008. They took photographs of people. I remember having my own photograph taken next to the policeman at Number 10. I’d never been anywhere near Downing Street. I didn’t know anything about it but I went to attend this petition. And there were, there was another Bomber Command man there who had been a prisoner of war in Stalag III. The one where fifty chaps had been shot. He was interested in a campaign medal as well. I wonder what happened to him. I’ve no idea. But some of the other people who were photographed there as a party not only the, Townsend, I think the name of the editor was but there were some members of parliament particularly a member of parliament who has just left us. Austin. Austin - I can’t remember his name. Anyway, this particular MP, his name will come to me, on the 13th of November 2007 before the petition, Mitchell, Austin Mitchell, that was his name, he was the MP for North Grimsby I think it was and he with a friend of mine Douglas Hudson DFC had done a programme on the Look North programme I remember in which they had been advocating the award of a campaign medal for Bomber Command. Doug Hudson had been a, had been a prisoner of war in Africa. His pilot had been shot down on the beaches heading for Malta I think in a Blenheim and he’d been captured by, I think, the Vichy French and put in to a prisoner of war camp somewhere in [Libya?] or somewhere like that. And they had been rescued when they had, when the Americans invaded and he’d been repatriated. This is Douglas Hurd and he’d done a conversion back on to navigation and he’d been serving with a Lancaster squadron and he had said to all the members of his Lancaster crew he said, ‘Now, look. I don’t intend to become another prisoner of war in Germany. I’ve had enough. So my position is quite clear.’ Anyway, he survived the tour and he wrote a book and he called it, “A Navigator’s Story: There and Back Again.” And he contacted, he lived somewhere near Lincoln, on the outskirts of Lincoln with his family, and he met Austin Mitchell and he persuaded him to do this Look North programme looking for a campaign medal. He died of course. His wife died first. I still, I’m still in touch with his daughter who still lives there and I keep her in touch with my puny efforts to get a campaign medal. This girl, Yvonne, Yvonne [Puncher?] married another navigator but a Canberra navigator after the war and they lived just around the corner from where Douglas and his wife lived. And she joined the air force to become an air traffic control officer and that’s where we, we joined up again in a different way and I was able to talk to her about life in the air traffic control world.
SB: What did you do after you left the air force?
JW: I’m sorry?
SB: What did you do after you left the air force?
Well that’s a very interesting story because after I went to the resettlement unit at Brackla with Paddy he went off to the Tiger Force and they said, ‘Now Jim. What are we going to do with you? You’ve done a double tour. You deserve a rest. Would you like to be RTO at Euston Station?’ And I said, ‘What does that mean? What’s RTO?’ ‘Rail Travel Officer,’ they said. ‘What did he do?’ ‘Ah well you see it’s nothing to do with flying. I’m afraid you’re now a flight lieutenant and as such you can do a lot of work. You might be very helpful as an RTO because an RTO at Euston station is a busy job you know and we need people with wartime experience used to handling men, army, navy, air force and we move them around in hundreds every day of the week. Moving them from this camp to that camp and so.’ And I said, ‘Well ok. It sound a little bit boring but, and I don’t really like London as a place to live. What else can you think of?’ ‘Well,’ they said, ‘What about a job with BOAC?’ And I said, ‘What is BOAC?’ ‘British Overseas Airways Corporation.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Civil flying?’ ‘Yes, that’s right.’ They said. ‘I’ll buy that one,’ I said. ‘I’ll try that. Can’t do any harm.’ ‘You’re on,’ he said. ‘We’ll send you warrants and things like that to Bristol and you can talk to the people down there’. Ostensibly of course it was to fly so I said, ‘Yeah, but civil flying.’ ‘That’s right,’ they said. ‘It won’t be in a war zone.’ So, we got married and we went to, it was nearly Christmas time I remember and I think by the time I got down to Bristol to make an appointment they said, ‘Jim, we would be delighted for you to fly but we’re snowed under with navigators. What we really want in BOAC at the moment are ground operations officers to make the whole system work better.’ ‘Ok,’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t know much about it but where would it be?’ ‘Ah well we’d like you to go Hurn, near Bournemouth.’ Now, an operations officer down there would handle Dakotas, Lancastrians and things like that and it’s an important job.’ So I said, ‘Ok. My flying days are over, I’m married. I’m free and I survived and the war’s still on. I’ll do it.’ So I told my wife on our honeymoon. I said, ‘I’m not going to fly anymore. I’m going to be an operations officer.’ ‘Oh, well Bournemouth sounds very interesting,’ she said. So I stayed for another eighteen months at Hurn doing this operation officer’s job and of course the Royal Air Force were still paying me. I was still in flight lieutenant’s uniform and I could wear a flight lieutenant’s uniform any time I liked but during the day BOAC would give me an operations officer uniform. It was a different kind of uniform. But it was quite interesting work and I found I met a lot of interesting people. I met a lot of ex Bomber Command people who were also seconded. The war was still on but they were seconded to BOAC to help them fly Lancastrians because they were familiar with the Lancaster and a lot of the people that I used to work with as an operations officer would be flying Dakotas. Now they were just the same as the military Charlie 47 that a lot of our people flew during the war on Transport Command. And very interesting, I used to meet, I used to meet the skippers and I met people like O. P. Jones at Hurn. He was a very well-known civil aviation pilot. [? ] And of course the same station manager for BOAC in Bournemouth was also responsible for the flying boat operation at Poole Harbour, just down the road from the other side from the land airfield at Hurn to the seaplane base at Poole. It was all very interesting stuff and whilst the war was still on. But in nineteen forty, when would it be, I couldn’t get demobbed until October ‘46 and sometime in early ‘46 whilst I was still an operations officer Mr Horton, I remember his name, the station manager, he came and he said, ‘Jim I know you’re in the air force but,’ he said, ‘But I’m about to become station manager in London for BOAC because we’re opening up at Heathrow.’ And I said, ‘Fine.’ He said, ‘Mr Carter,’ I think that was his name, who was a senior operations man at Hurn, ‘Is nearly at retirement age and he doesn’t want to go to Heathrow. Would you like the job of station operations officer at Heathrow?’ I said, ‘Yes. It doesn’t make any difference to me. I’m quite happy. It’s a challenge. I’d like to do it.’, ‘Ok,’ he says, ‘So, it means living a bit rough for a while because we’ve got a house at the end of the runway and we’ve got to literally build SECO huts alongside the A4 road, the Bath Road. We’ve got to do all this sort of stuff and it takes time to organise it. It will be tough for a time.’ I said, ‘Fine. I’m quite happy to do that.’ So I became the station operations officer for London Airport for BOAC but they had Pan America and they had [Lufthansa] they had other people but as far as BOAC were concerned they wanted me to do this job. He said, Mr Horton says, ‘Incidentally, we also would also like you to do an air traffic control course. I know it’s a joint military civil service job at Watchfield.’ I said, ‘Fine. I don’t mind doing that and I’ll meet lots of interesting people there.’ So I went to Watchfield and I did the course and I passed it and I went back to Heathrow and then I took some of my other operations officers and sent them off to do air traffic control officer’s job as well. There was meaning for this of course because when the war ended in ’45, on May, on May the 8th the civil flying business took off in a big way. A lot of the seconded RAF officers both flying and ground would carry on doing civil contracts with BOAC and I was one of them. I was demobbed in October ‘46 and on the 20th of October I went to Gambia in British West Africa as an operations officer but this time I think they’d regraded me as an operations officer grade one. It was a better kind of job and paid a bit better than the routine BOAC operations officer grade 2 did. Anyway, my wife and I were quite happy and she, by this time was living with her parents in Ilford. The war was over. We were married. We had no children. She was looking forward to being a wife overseas and eventually after six months she followed me out to Bathurst and we lived in married quarters there. Lived in nissen huts accommodation but Fujara was the place where we lived and worked and I used to operate by transport by car to the airfield at [Yangden?], would go down to the flying boat base in Bathurst. That became Banthul. I think B A N T H U L, was the new name that they invented for Bathurst. Now, there had been Royal Air Force during the war at Bathurst at [Yangden?] and the flying boat base at Bathurst. They had used air sea rescue and things like that but all the people that were wartime at Bathurst and similar places overseas had to be brought back for demob and that’s where the air traffic control came in because the ministry of civil aviation were quite interested to get BOAC to organise this on their behalf because they wanted the routes to be kept up without, without halt whilst the transfer from wartime to civil took place. I quite enjoyed doing the job in Gambia. I quite enjoyed it but whilst we were there BOAC contacted all the air traffic control officers they had overseas and they said, ‘Would you like to become a flight operations officer? If you do and if you have the qualification and if you are willing we will train you at Aldermaston in England for three months course and you will cease to be operations officer grade 1 and if you succeed as part of the course you will be posted as flight operations officers.’ Now they don’t wear uniform. It’s not a uniform job. It was a very important job because you’d got to do all the flight planning for the civil airliners at Heathrow, at Prestwick and all these places and you’re going to save time, effort and money by shift working, in your case at Prestwick because in 19, what would it be? 1946 we left, ’48, December we came back. In ’49. In ‘49 I became a flight operations officer working for BOAC as a civilian. Nothing to do with the air force. I worked at er, as a flight operations officer for BOAC at Prestwick and I was posted then from Prestwick to Heathrow. But in September ’50, in September ’50, I remember very well all the flight operations officers throughout BOAC would become redundant and they had three months’ pay which lasted until December of that year. And the reason for it was that in the previous financial year in spring of ‘50 BOAC made an eight million pound loss which upset them. And they found that the new chairman, who was a city man, didn’t know anything about flying and he said to his board of directors, ‘Right. I’m your new boss. Tell me what the facts are. I suppose we need air crew. We couldn’t fly without them.’ ‘That’s right,’ they said. ‘And they’re very expensive.’ ‘Ok,’ he said, ‘Well, who are the next expensive people?’ ‘Well, we think the flight operations officers are.’ ‘Tell me what they do,’ he said. ‘Oh the flight operations officers throughout the world take the incoming air crew and in advance they do meteorological analysis of the future flights and when the incoming crew arrive they can just have a meal, accept what the flight operations officers has decided is the best time track for the next stage. Sign and off they go.’ ‘I see,’ said the new chairman. ‘Well, the answer simply, really to save money is to stop paying all these flight operations officers and let the air crew do their own flight planning. There’s a captain, a navigator a wireless operator why can’t they do it themselves. They’re qualified to do it.’
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with James Wright
Creator
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Sheila Bibb
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWrightJDFC150608
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Description
An account of the resource
James Wright was born in Nottinghamshire and worked as a civil servant before he joined the Air Force. After training in Canada he flew on operations as a navigator with 61, 97 and 630 Squadrons. He recalls the occasion when Eastbourne Railway Station was attacked by Me 109s. He discusses the difficulties and importance of navigation by describing events at Nuremberg. After the war he became a flight operations manager at Heathrow and in Gambia an air traffic controller.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Eastbourne (East Sussex)
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Shropshire
Germany--Nuremberg
Heathrow Airport (London, England)
England--Sussex
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
Format
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02:15:12 audio recording
61 Squadron
630 Squadron
97 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
animal
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
crewing up
final resting place
ground personnel
Lancaster
Me 109
medical officer
memorial
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Pathfinders
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Upper Heyford
strafing
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/579/8848/PHarrisonJ1501.2.jpg
1a57ff0e3dad9384f62bb7cde4f22cfe
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/579/8848/AHarrisonJ150809.2.mp3
d8bd795575540901698a5de69ed45289
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harrison, John
J Harrison
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Harrison, J
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with John Harrison (1924 - 2017), his log book, correspondence, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a mid-upper gunner with 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Harrison and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2015-08-09
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: OK, try again. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Annie Moody and the interviewee is John Harrison and the interview is taking place at Mr Harrison’s home in Birstall in Yorkshire on the 9th of August 2015. So, to start with if you just tell me a little about where, well tell me where you were born and a little bit about your childhood and school and when you left.
JH: Well I was born at a little village called Collingham in North Yorkshire, it’s just near Wetherby. And I lived there until I went to, eventually I passed an exam and I went to Harrogate Grammar School and I was at Harrogate Grammar School until, I got my school certificate and then I was sixteen and didn’t know what to do. Anyhow I had an auntie who was a big noise in the Civil Service, pardon?
AM: Me too.
JH: Yeah and she said ‘I’ll see if I can fix you up with a temporary job in the Civil Service in Harrogate ‘cause they were in Harrogate at the time. And so I ended up going in the Civil Service in a branch called E20 in the Civil Service in Harrogate at {unclear} Hotel I think it was. And they dealt with all enquiries and everything regarding barrage balloons and everything, must have been supplies you know, supplies and all that. And I stayed there until I was eighteen. And then of course when I was, I knew I was going to get called up at eighteen and I got called up at eighteen and caught the train down to London and I went to the Lords’ Cricket Ground where we all had to go. And I was there for a while and then from there I got shunted all over the place. [Sighs] I forget where I went next, oh, I ended up at Dalcross in Scotland which was an RAF place, it’s now the airport for Inverness.
AM: Right.
JH: And I was there, and I did my gunnery training there, and eventually – {rustling of paper}
AM: We’re just having a look at John’s logbook.
JH: I passed out as an air, sergeant air gunner, on the 17th of July 1943 at No2 Air Gunnery School which was at Dalcross. And then I went to, No2 Air Gunnery School that was it yeah, and then I was, I joined, I picked up a pilot, Flying Officer Clements, and I don’t know what happened to him because we did three, I did three trips with him, the last one was a leaflet raid to Le Mans and after that I never saw him again, so I don’t know what happened to him. But then I picked up, I went to gunnery school at Skellingthorpe and then I came to 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby, and there I picked up me pilot, Flying Officer Leggatt.
AM: When you say you picked up your pilot, what was that like then, how did that work?
JH: Well, we as far as I remember, we went into this room and they were milling around, pilots, looking for air gunners, and air gunners –anyhow eventually I got talking to this chap, Flying Officer Leggatt, and I went on his crew. He was a smashing bloke and we got on quite well together and we stayed together. Then we finished 1660 Conversion Unit which was at Halifax, er at Swinderby.
AM: So that was conversion to the four engined bombers?
JH: Yeah, yeah. Then we went onto the serious stuff, reported to 106 Squadron.
AM: 106 Squadron?
JH: Metheringham, and the first operation we did was to Frankfurt am Main and that was on ED593Y and that was the one that I was telling you about.
AM: That later on, what was it like, that first operation can you remember?
JH: Well I don’t know, yes, actually that one was very quiet, it was to Frankfurt and we, it was only five hours thirty-five minutes and we got with no problems, you know we got there, bombed the target, came back, landed.
AM: Were you a rear gunner or a mid-upper?
JH: I started off as a mid-upper gunner.
AM: OK.
JH: But then we um, until we got to, and then the next trip was to Berlin. And this was the one where we had the problems with two engines u/s, flight engineer was killed and the wireless op was injured.
AM: So which operation was this, how many had you done before that one?
JH: Berlin.
AM: Yeah.
JH: That was in this aircraft ED593Y which was on its seventy-third operation, we decided it had had enough. [laughs] We landed at, we decided that, we didn’t know whether we were going to bail out or what by the side door. So, we decided to make a dash for it and we come to Coltishall, and we landed at Coltishall in Norfolk and we were told afterwards, we’d no wireless, no nothing, everything was dead and all we did was fire in, was fire in the colours of the day through the front window and you know they told us there was twelve aircraft in various stages of distress waiting to land and suddenly this Lancaster, no lights, no nothing just fired the colours of the day, wheels down obviously coming in regardless. And we came in and we got half way down, and this is perfectly true, we got half way down the runway and we ran out of fuel. Now how lucky can you get you know? We stayed there the night and the following morning Group Captain McKechnie who was the CO of 106 Squadron, and he had the George Cross by the way, he came down and picked us up and took us back.
AM: Right, just drove down and got you?
JH: Yeah.
AM: Drove down or flew down?
JH: Flew down.
AM: He flew down?
JH: Flew down and then after that we went to Berlin. One, two, three, four, five, six to Berlin and then we hit trouble [laughs].
AM: Did you ever fire your gun?
JH: Yeah.
AM: Did you ever have to fire your gun?
JH: Oh yeah, yeah I’ve got bits and pieces in here [rustling of pages]. ‘One combat, enemy aircraft not identified’, [rustling] ‘Three engagements that were in Berlin. Three engagements, one Junkers 88 claimed as damage’.
AM: What did it actually feel like then firing your guns?
JH: Well [laughs] you know it was just what I was there for really. It was a treat to have a go at somebody [laughs]. It, that was when this aircraft we were flying was on its seventy-third trip.
AM: That was the one where you got shot up?
JH: Where we landed at Coltishall and it was parked up and then the next morning. Pardon?
AM: I’m telling Gary to shush {laughter} with his pages.
JH: And then the next morning we came down to get our stuff out of it and it was parked up there and there was about six or seven Yanks all looking you know, and they’d been brought down. They said ‘Sure you must be very, very sad to lose this old girl?’ you know ‘cause it was there with the seventy-three bombs on it you know? And I said ‘No we’re not really’ [laughter] and they couldn’t understand why we weren’t crying our eyes out because we’d lost it.
AM: Did they give you bacon and eggs, like they do on the British bases?
JH: Yeah, yeah oh aye.
AM: So they got bacon and eggs as well?
JH: Yeah, but Group Captain McKechnie came down and picked us up and took us back. Now then he had the George Cross, Gp Captain Mckechnie. There was an aircraft on fire, he went inside and pulled the pilot out.
AM: Right.
JH: I don’t know a right lot about it but it he did [rustling] and then –
AM: So then you got a new ‘plane?
JH: Yeah, and we were Berlin, Berlin. ‘One combat enemy aircraft identified,’ Berlin, Berlin and that time we had to land at Bardney, at Bardney.
AM: What was the flying time to Berlin?
JH: To Berlin? Eight hours roughly.
AM: About eight hours?
JH: Yeah, it varied, seven hours or eight hours and then the last one.
AM: What were you actually bombing, can you remember in Berlin, what were your targets?
JH: Targets? Berlin [laughs].
AM: Berlin, just Berlin?
JH: No they had a, it’s funny that because they you know, we were approaching the target and the bloody bomber aimer was fiddling about with his stuff you know, I kept thinking to myself ‘For God’s sake get the bloody bombs’ [laughs] but he. I went to Berlin again and then 19th of April it was, I was, we were going to Leipzig and we got shot down and the, we were, we couldn’t get the rear door open to go through you know, and the mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner used to go out through the rear door and we couldn’t get it open. So, he rang the pilot up and he said we were on fire like. And he said ‘I’ll hold it as long as I can’ so he shot up to front and I went out and he was still there and he went like that. And I went out and I landed right on the side of a lake, and I saw in the middle of the lake there was a great bang and a crash and what have you and obviously the aircraft had gone right into the lake and the pilot when he bailed out, this lake was frozen over. Well it was, I landed fortunately on the edge of the lake and so I was able to get my stuff off, but he landed right in the middle of the lake and he went under where the ice was broken and he drowned. And they told us next morning, they said ‘Your pilot was drowned, he couldn’t get back out of the aircraft’. He was a marvellous lad you know? It made me sick to think, but that’s how it ended, and he um –
AM: Did the rest of you manage to bail out OK though?
JH: Yeah, all of us, all of us got out. And I don’t know what happened to them. I was taken the next day, there was about six of us. It was a German air RAF, German bomber station which we’d landed near and they came and took us and shoved us in the cells. And then the next morning, there was six of us, and they put us in a {unclear} and they said ‘We’re taking you to Berlin ‘cause you’ll have to go from Berlin to Frankfurt to Dulag Luft to the interrogation centre’.
AM: OK.
JH: And he said ‘When you get into Berlin keep your heads down’ he said ‘Because it’s in a hell of a state’ and he said ‘You’re the ones that have done it’ and you know we actually saw one poor RAF bloke hanging from a bloody lamp standard. The Germans had got him you know? I suppose you could understand it.
AM: The civilians had got him then and hung him?
JH: Yeah, he was hanging, swinging in the breeze, I mean Berlin was in a hell of a state. It was just, I saw London, but London was nothing compared with Berlin. It was absolutely flattened, I mean we’d been bombing it every night for about seven or eight nights, with four thousand-pound clusters and all the rest of it. So, we were taken to Frankfurt and we were interrogated there and –
AM: What was that like being interrogated?
JH: Well it wasn’t too bad really because we had a, he was quite a civvy bloke he was. He said, he asked us what aircraft we flew. We said ‘You’ll know won’t you?’ And he did of course. He said ‘Well of course we do, you were in a Lancaster weren’t you?’ I said ‘Yes’ and he said it crashed into {unclear}, I said ‘Yes’. And he said ‘Well,’ he said ‘I don’t think there’s a right lot that you can tell us that we don’t know’ and he said ‘Right you’ll be taken, and we were taken by. [sighs] What were we in? Railway truck, and we were taken up to Konigsberg, right on the north coast, Stalag Luft 6.
AM: Right.
JH: And we were there, we were taken there, and then from there we were taken down to Turan in Poland and then from there we were taken across to oh, place in Germany, not while some three or four miles from Belsen it was, because we were frightened to bloody death when we found out.
AM: I’ll bet.
JH: I forget the name of the airfield. Fallingbostel I think it was and from there one morning they came in and they said ‘Right whatever you can get and carry, you’re going, moving’. And we were marched out and we marched northwards towards the, you know back, I thought we were going back to the bloody place we’d been before. Anyhow.
AM: Did you know why they wanted you to start marching?
JH: No they didn’t tell you, they just, but obviously we found out after later that the Americans and the British were coming and they weren’t far away from there. Anyhow we got about half way along there and we, there quite a few hundred of us with an odd German, a guard, and we’re marching on the edge of this wood and four Typhoons, you know British Typhoons came down circled and I thought ‘Those buggers are going to come at us’. They turned around, the first one came in and he opened up on us with bloody cannons. And they killed, I think it was eighty, eighty, I think eighty of us were killed with that. And I, my best pal was killed as well and I had a job. We’d been pals a long time and he came from Leeds and I had the bloody awful job of going to see his wife.
AM: Afterwards?
JH: Afterwards, and telling her what had happened you know?
AM: What did you think when the Typhoon came over then, why did you think it was, it was shooting?
JH: Because there were four of ‘em and they were going past and obviously they circled and wouldn’t land. The leader came down and he had a right good look at us and it was obvious that they were going to have a go at us. You know they thought we must be Germans, I don’t know why. And it’s funny, after the war I ran into, well I joined the Aircrew Association and one of these pilots was in it. I got talking to him and I said ‘Why on earth did you shoot us?’ He said well ‘They were Germans’. I said ‘Aye but there was only an odd German here and there’. I said ‘It was obvious to anybody that we were –’ and they came and the first one came in with his cannons and I dived in a muddy ditch [laughs] and he, the second one came, and then I found out afterwards a brave soul at the back of the column had got out and started waving a white sheet. So, they stopped and obviously the bloke came and had a look at us and went like that and off they went.
AM: Waggled his wings and went?
JH: I think you’ll find sixty or eighty of us were killed.
AM: It was quite a lot, yeah.
JH: As I say because I had to go to see, I’d been with him all the time.
AM: Yeah.
JH: So she ought to know.
AM: After that had happened what did you all do, did you all have to just carry on marching?
JH: No. We were on a farm and suddenly in the morning we woke up and all the bloody Germans had gone. And there was the, forget which unit it was, German, English unit, I think it was the Wiltshire Regiment or something were there and they said ‘Well look we’ve a German unit surrendering here any moment now, they’ll have a staff car’. So, he says ‘Can any of you drive? My mate says ‘Yes I can’ and there was four, he says ‘Right you four’ he says ‘Kick the bloody German out of the car,’ he says you know ‘he’ll be there with his –’. It was a staff car. He said ‘If there’s any trouble’ he said ‘Shoot the buggers’ [laughs].
AM: Did you have anything to shoot them with?
JH: [Laughs] They would have given us one. [laughs] We got this staff car, lovely staff car and we got a white sheet from the farm and put it over the bonnet and put a red cross over it. And they gave us enough petrol and food {gave us all the wine?] to get us into Northern France and off we went, and there was a camp there. And they came one morning and said ‘Right twenty of you’ so I said ‘What’s up?’ They said ‘The British aircraft are coming in and they’re going to take you home’ you know? And I went onto the airfield and I nearly fell over. I saw the registration number which was ZN, which was 106 Squadron, which was my squadron. And they were from Metheringham, and so I said to them, I said ‘You’re from Metheringham aren’t you?’ and they said ‘Yeah how do you know?’ ‘Because I used to be there’. And they said ‘Hang on’ and they got, I think it was twenty they took each aircraft, and they got ‘em in and they took me on the lads upstairs into where the pilot and that was, and they said ‘He used to be one of us’. So, I was sat on the thing there and it was a VE day. I’ll always remember it because I was listening to Churchill doing his speech, sat in my little chair. And we landed at, on the south coast. Forget the name of the place now, I forget the name, on the south coast. And the WAAF’s came and took us two at a time, and they took us into the delousing centre, [laughs] got us deloused. And then they took us to this RAF place where we were issued with new uniforms and everything. And I had shrapnel in this left big toe and I’d had it all the time since I was shot down and when we got tidied up, they took us up to this RAF place near Birmingham somewhere, don’t ask me where it was. The Sister there, I said ‘I’ll have to go and you know report with this’ I said, you know it were really bad. So, my mates were all dressed and I lost them again ‘cause they were off and I had to go into hospital. And the Sister said ‘Well’ she said ‘It’s a bit of a mess is this, you’ll be a few days’ she said. She got chatting to me, she said ‘Do you have a girlfriend?’ I said ‘Well I had, I said ‘I hope I still have’. She said ‘Do you have a telephone number for her?’ I said ‘Yes, she works at the, in Leeds’. It was National Savings, Leeds. So, she gave me half a crown, she said ‘There’s a telephone there go and give her a ring’. And I rang her and I said ‘Can I speak to Miss Joan Prince please’ and they said ‘Yes’. And she came on and she said ‘Hello’. I said ‘It’s John’ she said ‘John who?’ I said ‘How do you mean?’ she said ‘John where are you?’ I said ‘I’m in hospital’ I said ‘It’s nowt serious’ but I said ‘Will you let me Mother and Father know?’ ‘cause she knew their telephone number and the {unclear] wanted to know. She said ‘Yeah I’ll let them know’ and then I was there until they said ‘Right you can go’ you know? And they put me on a train from Birmingham to Leeds. When I got to Leeds about seven o’clock at night I went into the station where there was a, what did they call them?
AM: A café?
JH: No. Records things you know? Military police.
AM: Oh yeah, right.
JH: And I walked in and said ‘I suppose it’s too bloody late to catch the bus or train to Collingham or Wetherby?’ And they said ‘Yeah, you’re right there lad’ he said ‘what are you?’ So I said ‘I’ve been a prisoner of war, I’m just coming back’. ‘Oh’ he said ‘I do wish they’d ruddy well tell us’ he said ‘We have people who will come and pick you up’ and he rang round and he said ‘Right’ he said ‘What did you say your name was?’ I said ‘Harrison’ , ‘Oh, this man I’m talking to knows your father, [laughs] so he says he’ll come and pick you up’. And he came to Leeds City station, picked me up and took me back to Collingham. Me Mother came running down steps, nearly fell over ‘em, ‘cause you know I’d been a prisoner two and a half years, and that was the end of it.
AM: And that was that?
JH: Yeah.
AM: Did you marry Joan?
JH: Pardon?
AM: Did you marry her? There she is.
JH: There she is.
AM: Lovely.
JH: She was a twin and her twin brother was on Bomber Command the same time as I was and he was shot down off the Dutch coast about six weeks before I was. And Joan’s Mother got a letter from the squadron about, and she recognised the Typhoon’s letters straight away you know? And she kept it for three or four days before she let Joan have it just to say that you know, I had been shot down.
AM: That you were a prisoner?
JH: So that was it.
AM: That was that. What did you do after the war John?
JH: I became a policeman [laughs].
AM: Oh right, you didn’t go back to the Civil Service then?
JH: No, no, no. I was kicking my heels doing nothing and I saw this advert for Police and I went and I got, joined Yorkshire, West Riding Police Force, and did thirty years in that.
AM: Thirty years?
JH: And I have a medal from them, from the, are you in a hurry?
AM: No you can show me in a minute. I’m going to switch this off now though, that was excellent thank you.
JH: Yeah. The camps made their own radio and they used to, a bloke used to come around every night or whatever it was and he used to read out what had happened in the world that day. If the Germans had ever found it we would have bloody been shot, but they didn’t find it.
AM: So you even knew about Belsen, what was happening?
JH: Oh aye, we got all the news. They used to come around, he used to come, I don’t know, they had a radio. Don’t ask me how it was or anything ‘cause they wouldn’t have told you but they had a radio, they’d made it themselves. And they used to listen to BBC and they used to take all the news down and then they used to go around various camps and that you know? And they used to come in and a bloke used to stand outside the door to make sure if there were any Jerries about, and then he used to read us the news so we knew what was going off. Marvellous organisation [laughs].
AM: What else did you do in the prisoner of war camps, did you do the shows and stuff like that?
JH: Oh aye, there was shows. I didn’t get involved in any of them, I weren’t good enough, I weren’t good enough to be girl. [laughs].
AM: What did you actually do then to occupy your time?
JH: Well I actually did a course on education.
AM: Oh right.
JH: You know like a GCE thing? And that was, you know, you got by.
AM: What about all the people building tunnels and stuff?
JH: Oh yeah we had them. You see they, there was one tunnel built from our camp and it, eventually they got, they caught them. And then the bloody Gestapo, there was about fifty of them, and they brought them into this wood at the side, just at the side of the camp, and they shot ‘em. Just mowed them down like that.
AM: Which camp was that John?
JH: That was Stalag Luft 6 we were in I think at the time.
AM: 6?
JH: No.
AM: Or 3?
JH: Anyhow, no we weren’t three. I forget, we’d been in Poland, they’d brought us back in ruddy trucks. It was right near Belsen it was and Stalag? I don’t know.
Unknown: You were in Stalag Luft 6. Yeah.
JH: 6? Yeah, Stalag Luft 6.
GR: It was the prisoners from Belsen that were machined gunned.
AM: Right.
JH: You didn’t argue with them ‘cause they’d shoot you as soon as look at you.
Unknown: Yeah.
JH: At back end of war.
GR: And by that time during 1944 it was getting so bad and they were treating you as terror fliers and this, that and the other. Even the German civilians would kill.
AM: Yeah, well like the man.
JH: Let’s face it I’ve been to Berlin two or three times since the war. My son went into the RAF, and he was in RAF Intelligence, and he spoke about five languages, still does I suppose. And he was based in Berlin and he used to go into this big tower, and whatever he took into that tower he left. He couldn’t bring anything out with him at all and they used to listen into bloody Germans and Russians and God know what. He’d come back to this country to take another language and his wife had gone with a friend to do some shopping, I forget where it was now, and a lorry turned the wrong way on a corner and it hit the car. I never thought [unclear] his wife would live, she was in a right state. Anyhow she did live and she still walks with a limp and that.
AM: Right.
JH: But that killed him going back to Berlin you know?
AM: Is that the son who lives in Lincoln?
JH: Yeah, he lives at –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Harrison
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-09
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Sound
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AHarrisonJ150809
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
John Harrison grew up in Yorkshire and worked in the Civil Service before joining the Royal Air Force at 18. After training, he flew operations as a mid-upper gunner with 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham before being shot down over Leipzig and becoming a prisoner of war. Following a short period of hospitalisation, he married his wartime sweetheart Joan. After the war he served with the Yorkshire police.
Contributor
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Dawn Studd
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Lithuania
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Lithuania--Šilutė
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
Format
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00:35:40 audio recording
106 Squadron
1660 HCU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Dulag Luft
fear
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
lynching
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Dalcross
RAF Metheringham
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
shot down
Stalag Luft 6
strafing
training
Typhoon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/614/8883/PMusgroveJ1501.1.jpg
b7eca1ecabb2abfcc21142f7d37a6759
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/614/8883/AMusgroveJ150812.2.mp3
772053bb4cd364dadff721dd7f83f840
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Musgrove, Joseph
J Musgrove
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Musgrove
Description
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Two items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Joseph Musgrove (1922 - 2017, 1450082, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 214 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Annie Moodie, and the interviewee is Joe Musgrove, and the interview is taking place at Mr. Musgrove’s home in Whatton, on 12th August, 2015. So Joe just to start off will you tell me a little bit about your, where you were born and your family background and school, stuff like that?
JM: Well I was born in York in 1922, my parents were Soldney [?] people, my father unfortunately had an accident when he was sixteen and lost half an arm so I was brought to appreciate the problems of people who had lost limbs. I went to school, I was at school until I was fourteen at the Loddon School in York which is very good quality school, er, did not do very well. When I went to work I decided that my education ought to be extended a bit more and spend two days a week at night school to bring myself up to a reasonable standard.
AM: What job were you doing Joe, what job were you doing then?
JM: I was working at Rowntrees which is a factory, and just ordinary work producing what is today a Kit-Kats.
AM: What did you do at night school then, what sort of things were you doing at?
JM: Well I concentrated on English and mathematics as I thought they were two basic things in life and that did stand me in good stead when I applied to join the Air Force when I was seventeen.
AM: What made you apply to join the Air Force?
JM: The main reason I think was I didn’t want to join the Army, I didn’t want to join the Navy, obvious reasons [laughs] and the Air Force appealed. The reason why in 1936 a single engined twin wing fighter landed not very far from where I was living and that got my interest in flying which I had ever since.
AM: Right. So you joined the RAF?
JM: Yes.
AM: How old were you eighteen?
JM: I joined in 19 well I went to join in 1940, had all me exams and one thing and another, but I hadn’t realised when I first applied to join that it would be such a complicated business and that, because I spent three days at [unclear] at Cardington where the airships were, going through various tests and exams and things like that, and fortunately I did quite well so they eventually accepted me as a wireless operator/air gunner and I went and trained me on that.
AM: So what was the training like where did you do it?
JM: Well.
AM: Describe the training to me?
JM: I did a bit of everything, I went to Cardington to get kitted out and I went from there to Scar to Blackpool, for initial training, which I enjoyed, because bearing in mind at the time I was just coming up to eighteen in 19. I never been away on me own before it was quite exciting to be in Blackpool in those days, and that was the doing Morse Code and things like that. I did I think reasonably well, a very kindly flight sergeant patted me on the head and said, ‘I think you’ve passed.’ I was pleased about that, and then I went on leave. And then from there I went to a place called Madley in Herefordshire for initial flying on, can’t remember the name of the aircraft now, anyhow it was a twin engine twin plane, it was my first experience of flying which I think I enjoyed at the time you went up and down it’s a little bit rough, and I found out what air sickness was all about and that particular thing, but did quite well pass there and then I went on flying with a single engine aircraft a Percival IV [?] which was quite good. And then from there on leave, Madley by the way was the place where Rudolph Hess when he came was moved to Madley first of all from Glasgow. From there I went on leave, sounds if life’s one great leave for me isn’t it, and enjoyed it. From there I went, can you just let me have a little think. I got posted to a place called Staverton, I went to the, er, railway transport office, and he said, ‘Oh I know where it is it’s not very far from blah, blah, blah.’ So off I went down to the South Coast and on to Staverton, got off train there, empty platform, I found one of the officials there, I said, ‘How do I get to Staverton aerodrome?’ He said, ‘With a great deal of difficulty from here ‘cos you’re in the wrong county the one you want is between in Gloucestershire, between Gloucester and Cheltenham.’ So they put me up overnight and the following day to Staverton which was an aerodrome just opposite Rotols Airscrews Factory. Spent some time there, I’m not quite certain what the objective at Staverton was, did a fair bit of flying. Staverton went on leave and got posted to 102 Squadron on Halifaxes at Topcliffe. Hadn’t been there very long and then moved just the other side of York, can’t remember the name of the aerodrome now, anyhow, but wasn’t on operations I was there as part of my training.
AM: Was this the Heavy Conversion Training, Heavy Conversion Training?
JM: Yes, thoroughly enjoyed it. Went on leave from there yet again, I think my parents begin to think life is one great leave for Joseph David. And from there, oh I got posted to a place called Edgehill near Banbury, which was No. 12 Operational Training Unit. From there of course I joined the usual thing there’s twenty of us of each kind, so the cup of coffee on the lawn and get crewed up which we did.
AM: How did, how did you crew up? How did that work?
JM: Well, it’s I stood there, mostly among people of my own breed if you like [unclear] and a chappie came up to me and said, ‘Are you crewed up yet?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well my pilot’s, a chap called Ces Brown, and I’m his navigator.’ And his name was dead fancy. ‘It would be very nice if you joined us and if you do of course we’ll have an idea we’ll just pop in the mess and have a cup of coffee and a beer later on in the day.’ And I thought, sounds good, so I joined them. And we did our OTU at Edgehill which was an aerodrome sit on like a little plateau which was a bit different but the beauty of it is, it was a farm that abutted the aerodrome that used to have a really good system whereby they give egg and bacon if you wanted it from the farm, which we did regularly. And from there on leave again, goodness, now this time it’s on my record in’t it this man goes on leave quite a lot. And got posted from there to 214 Squadron which was based at Chedburgh. Unfortunately on the way there I got robbed of my case with all my RAF papers in that I was studying nothing secret or anything like that but it was a bit of a loss to me, and joined 214 Squadron at Chedburgh not very far from Bury St. Edmonds. Stirlings Mark 3 Stirlings, I was quite pleased because I thought Mark 3’s, one or two were joining Mark 1’s and Mark 1’s were a little bit of a [intake of breath] I always thought a bit of a difficult thing they used to have a lot of swing on take-off, whereas a Mark 3 had one but not quite as serious as the other ones. So that was it I’m now operational.
AM: So what was your first operation like?
JM: Well it was gardening they always are aren’t they, cinnamon [?] which was just off the Baltic. I don’t know it’s when you’re sitting in the radio operator’s little compartment almost isolated from everybody else you don’t really know what’s going on outside, so what I used to approaching the target area stand in the astrodome and look out for people who were a little bit sort of not all that nice to us and that was the first one, it was uneventful insofar as we weren’t damaged anyway usual [unclear] shells and flak and that was my if you like introduction to operations. I didn’t find it very difficult at all.
AM: What were you doing as the radio operator, what did you do for your main things?
JM: Well it’s communications I suppose was the main thing about radio operators, [coughs] they it was an air gunner, the training for air gunnery and I missed that out ‘cos I did my air gunnery training on Walney Island which was nice.
AM: Near Barrow-in-Furness.
JM: It had a nice pub, and they had Boulton Paul Defiants which was nice, and enjoyed that, and of course at the end of it we did we went on leave. [laughs]
AM: So back to being a radio operator?
JM: Well the Boulton Paul Defiant one was [unclear] two seater fighter with a pilot and the turret just behind, quite fast aircraft. The only thing was with Boulton Paul Defiant’s, oh yes and the pilot that I had was a Pole who didn’t speak English and on the thing there’s a set of coloured lights which combination of each it meant something to him and to me but not necessary the same so on that we had a bit of a problem on there. And on them the undercarriage the hydraulics were a little bit dubious, if I can use that word [whispers], so the problem was if you wouldn’t come down sometimes you’d get one leg down and the other one not, so I used to take it up, oh he used to take it up to about seven or eight thousand feet put his nose down and pull it up and centrifugal force would force the other one down. Well I was a [unclear] and when I flew on it it always worked, and from there as I said before I went on leave and on to [?] squadron.
AM: So actually being the radio operator on the operation what sort of things did you have to do?
JM: Well the thing is [coughs], excuse me, when approaching the target when presumably no, no stuff was going to come off the radio, my skipper asked me if I’d go in the front turret which I did, interesting ‘cos when you sit on the front of an aircraft, with nobody in front of you and nobody at the side of you to me it was a little bit isolated and there’s only two guns in the front turret rather than four in the back, but it was not too bad and it is interesting ‘cos you get a good view of the target when you went over it. One or two times we had a difference of opinion with night fighters, which meant me spraying or hosing the guns.
AM: So you did actually use the guns then?
JM: But I never ever shot anybody down unfortunately so I can’t claim any credit for anything like that, and that was it. And of course we had leave from time to time. [coughs]
AM: How many operations did you do Joe?
JM: Well it was listed as eight, so I wasn’t all that lucky.
AM: And what sort, what areas did you target, where did you actually go on the operations, can you remember?
JM: I remember two gardening, one was cinnamon and the other one was off the isl, Ile du Ré on the Durant which was the entrance to a U-Boat base somewhere.
AM: Why did they call them gardening, why did they call them gardening?
JM: Well they codes we all was vegetables, like cinnamon and rose and things like that, so it was just a code gardening. It was supposed to be our introduction to operations more often than not on the second one we did which was Ile du Ré off the Durant, we got you’ve got to drop them at a certain height, certain speed, and we had two large ones and then going down along the powers that be that gave us the route didn’t take into consideration the facts, there was some anti-aircraft ships they used to have based there, um, which unfortunately for us were just a, if I can put it that way, just a little bit unfriendly.
AM: Describe unfriendly?
JM: And um, the I think it was port [unclear] and that destroyed the power supply to a lot of the instruments the navigator was using [coughs] so we used the, I can’t use his name, but it was “D”. The code you phoned when you were in trouble on the nights and the thing indicated it was night time and we asked for searchlight assistance to get us to our which couldn’t do, so they got us into Andrew’s Field which is an American station which mitchers [?] and marauders and of course we put this Stirling down there and of course we put the Stirling down there and of course the quite high the nose on a Stirling, and the following morning we got up there’s all the, a lot of American [unclear] looking up at us, with some right rude remarks being made about it. But the beauty of it was, was the er, one of my commanders’ said, [coughs] excuse me, ‘You can go into the PX’, I think it was called. A large building where you could buy all sorts of things, so we stocked up on, I think it was Lucky Strike Cigarettes, handkerchiefs and things like that. And I must say when we landed there we went for debriefing for these, they got the station education officer etcetera up who debriefed us and he said, ‘Well non-commission officers in the Air Force the American Air Force don’t have a mess separate, but nevertheless we can get you something that you’ll will enjoy.’ And we had steak and one thing and another for breakfast, and they said, ‘Did we mind.’ And I thought no I don’t mind but if they want to hang on to me for a month or two I don’t mind at all. Eventually we went back to Chedburgh.
AM: How did you get back? How did you get back did somebody come and fly you back?
JM: They sent a lorry for us.
AM: Oh right.
JM: Not a crew bus a lorry and we sat in the back of that, flying kit and everything. And when we went along people recognised what we were and waved to us and we waved back, which was like being on holiday, and we got back and we went on leave, which was nice. And at that time I’d been introduced to a young lady who eventually became my wife, and I went to London to, she was a Londoner, I went to London to see her.
AM: Where did you meet her?
JM: I met her in Banbury when I was at HEO, and there was no bus service from HEO that I remember into Banbury so I used to walk, it wasn’t very far six or seven miles something like that. And I used to walk in spend the day with Elsie, walk back, and we was on night flying, circuit, bumps and things like that, and after seven days I said to Elsie, ‘I wish you’d go back to London ‘cos I’m worn out with you here going backwards and forwards.’ But it was nice. So back to Chedburgh, on the 27th which is the Monday of September 1943, we was briefed to go to Hanover which we’d been before so we knew the way, at least I thought we knew the way to Hanover. I remember it quite well because the final turning point was at the far end of the Steinhoven [?] and I was illuminated by a white flare cascading at three thousand feet, and I thought great that’s exactly where we go on the last leg, unfortunately rather unpleasant German night fighters I think it was, they used to have two sets of night fighters who would [unclear] there’s the tamer soar which was the tame boar and the wilder soar which was the wild boar, and the wild boar it roamed with radar a little bit feared by the way came from nowhere and one of them took a fancy to having a closer look at aircraft and the rear gunner fought him off. The rear gunner, Tommy Brennan, thought he’d shot him down but I don’t think he did, the trouble with rear gunners they always think they’re are shooting people down and there not. But by that time by the time we’d been chased all over the sky we was down to about five thousand feet and we took a consensus of the crew whether should go on or turn back so we decided after come that far we’d keep going although five thousand feet was a little bit low for operating.
AM: Had you been actually shot up at by that time?
JM: Yes the port engine had caught fire which we put out with the Gravenor, the Gravenor is the fire extinguisher in the engine which you can only use once, got that out, got down say to five thousand feet and then got shot at by anti-aircraft fire which set the port outer one on fire, so we [laughs] the bomb aimer disposed of his little things and off we went back but it was pretty obvious we was losing fuel and the aircraft kept getting lower and lower and lower, and Ces Brown the pilot said, ‘We better bale out now otherwise I think it’ll blow up.’ So that’s what we did and I landed near Emden in the middle of a field, and the funny thing was I remember about it, it was a soft landing, so I thought get rid of the parachute and me flying jacket etcetera, but I couldn’t find a way out of the field because there was a ditch all the way round and there seemed to be no way above it to get out, so I went round again and the moon was shining on the water but just underneath the water was this black bridge that was covered by water. So I got across there and I thought right go to the village which was in the distance with a church, go to the last cottage then if it’s unpleasant I’m out in the continent. Well that was the principle but when I got to the village I’m walking along very carefully keeping well into the hedge and things, when a little thing was in me, me back, and a voice said something or other, I could never remember what he actually said but I knew what it meant and that was it, and he was, he was I think he was a Hageman [?] in the Luftwaffe on leave, serves me right for getting involved in [unclear], and he was saying goodnight to his girlfriend when I happened to walk past so I thought his eyes lit up and he thought, ooh I’ve got it, I’ve got it, and I was, and he actually took me to the end cottage anyhow. Got in there and there was my navigator, Ted Bounty, sitting there looking quite miserable but he did perk up when he saw me and that was it.
AM: What happened to the others, what happened to the rest of the crew do you know?
JM: Well see when you are baling out you’ve got to remember the aircraft is still moving, and I been bale out the next man might be half a mile further on, so I don’t know until we’d been to Interrogation Centre, Dulag Luft, and we met that was the first prisoner of war camp I went to which was Stalag VI in Heydekrug in Lithuania.
AM: Right. Tell me about Dulag, tell me about the interrogation part of it?
JM: So they sent him that picked us up to Emden and Emden which was a police marine barracks, him that picked us up, and of course on the films you see these motorbikes with Germans on with a sidecar, they sent one of those, well they sent two, one for Ted Bounty, and one for me, and off we went to Emden. And at that time [coughs] I had, every now and again aircrew a thing we used to do, one of them’s got money and I was the one that had money, currency, so I thought I’ve got to be careful here what I do with it, so I said to the interrogator and they all, interrogators they all look nice, very polite, but there are not. I said, ‘I’m awfully sorry but I must use the toilet.’ So they got a guard took me along and I went inside the little cubicle and he waited outside, and I thought I know what I’ll do I’ll put the money, it was one of the old fashioned toilets up there, lift the lid up put it inside and get it later on. That was a, so went back into interrogation and they in retrospect it was not any particular worry on that, they shout at you, they threatened you, [coughs] excuse me, they offer you cigarettes, in fact I was offered a drink, um, but I’ve always made a promise I would never drink if I was captured, at least I think I did. So I then was taken into a room and given some soup to keep me going and said to that person, ‘I must use the toilet.’ [unclear] fine I’ve got it back again, climbed up lifted it up it had gone, dereliction of duty I suppose you would if the commander found out but I tried hard to keep it. And then went from there after about two or three days by train to Frankfurt am Main which is near to Oberursal which is where Dulag Luft was, stopped at Cologne and there’s I’m in this compartment with two guards, and I thought oh gosh I don’t feel very safe here on the station at Cologne, but fortunately a Luftwaffe officer came in and what he demanded I don’t know but he came to sit in here with us so his presence kept everybody out.
AM: So it was the civilians that were —
JM: Yes.
AM: Was the worrying factor.
JM: So we got on to Frankfurt am Main and then on to Dulag Luft. Dulag Luft I’ve read many many accounts of people’s grief there but I didn’t find it particularly harrowing if that’s the best word for it, unpleasant yes but not harrowing. So again I was offered cigarettes and drink which I didn’t take, regretted it afterwards. And then after about a fortnight something like that, may be six or seven of us that was there, I mean you was in isolation by the way, they took us by tram to a park where there was a wooden hut and it was opposite the IG Farbernwerks [?], I always remember that and we’d got to spend the night there and there’s an air raid, and next to the hut was a German anti-aircraft gun unit, which pooped ‘em up all night, not particularly pleasant, but in retrospect not too bad anyhow. I think when you say in retrospect it means that as the years have gone by you’ve mellowed to the situation, and then from there we were transported by train, luxury train, well cattle trucks really, but they were clean. All the way and I think we spent, and I can’t be hundred per cent certain, but I think we spent two days and two nights going to across Germany to Lithuania to Luft VI Heydekrug, and then that was it. And then when the Russians moved and in July 1944 when the Russians were not all that far away they decided they’d move the camp, most of the camp went by train to Thorn in Poland, the rest of us about eight hundred British airmen and the Americans went by train to Memell just up the coast from Lithuania and boarded a little ship called “The Insterburg” there was nine hundred I think from Klage[?] in the hold that we were in. It was a, it was an old coal ship, a Russian coal ship the Germans had taken over, and I had got volunteered to help the medics at Heydekrug there, one of my problems in life is that I keep going and putting me hand at the back of me head to scratch it and every time I’ve done that I’ve volunteered for something and I apparently volunteered to help the medics. Particularly on aircrew that had had injuries to the joints and the joints become sort of locked with adhesions of the joints, and my job was sort of try to break them down, which was interesting on that. So I had a Red Cross Armband and when I got on “The Insterburg” I said, pointed to it and the just tore it off and backed me down [laughs], and it was a twenty foot ladder, steel ladder into the, and we was on “The Insterburg” I think can’t remember exactly three or two days and nights on that, and then we landed at Swinemünde the German Naval Base at Swinemünde. When the what appeared to be an air raid but it was an individual American aircraft, [unclear], and went from there to Kiefheide, Kiefheide Station where we was going to go onto Gross Tychow which was Luft IV, and when they eventually the following morning got us out they had Police Marine [?] men or mainly boys in running shorts and vests with fixed bayonets and some of the Luftwaffe with dogs and a chap whose name was Hauptman Pickard, I always remember, and he was stood on the back seat of a Kugelwagen which was like a German little vehicle, and shouting all sorts of things [unclear] move you to Gross Tychow Camp at a reasonably fast pace with jabbing and one thing and another and dogs biting, and a thought that occurred to me was that I’d rather be on leave right now than doing this. And it was not all that far about four kilometres from Kiefheide Station to Gross Tychow but we had lots of casualties.
AM: On the way or you had casualties that you were taking with you?
JM: Well the instructions apparently mean to the police moving people, you can do what you like but you must not kill anybody, but that gave them carte blanche to knock hell out of us. Luckily I wasn’t too bad. So when we got there we found that the camp wasn’t even finished, we slept the first night in the open. The toilet arrangement in those days were a little bit suspect and it comprised, I shouldn’t really say this, a big trench with a [unclear] over it. And then the following day we was like in we call them dog kennels, small wooden huts, we slept in there for a few nights until they got the permanent ones done and that was Gross Tychow. It was of all the camps I was in the worst of the whole lot.
AM: Worse because of the conditions or the —
JM: Well, Prisoner of War Camps are governed mainly by the people running them, they can be nice or they can be nasty, at Heydekrug there were some about average they weren’t too bad at all, Gross Tychow they were awful to any of us.
AM: Awful in what way?
JM: Well bullying and things like that, but the food wasn’t very good, didn’t have much of it. There was a man there who was six foot three, or six foot four something like that, we used to call him the big stoop, largely because I think he was a little bit embarrassed by his height and he used to walk in a stoop. He was the one that took by wristwatch, he was the one that used to knock people over and things like that. But for every villain there’s always a day of comeuppance isn’t there and when we moved out on the march towards the end of the war the Americans found him and they’d taken his head off and that was that he’d got his comeuppance didn’t he. The end of the war.
AM: Tell me about the march then?
JM: Well in February, I think it was February 2nd, they made out we had been pre-warned we hadn’t been pre-warned they told us at midnight they was moving out the following day. So you’d got to prepare everything take everything with you that you can take, and most of the people got a spare shirt, sometimes you had a spare shirt, tie the up, the arms up and button it up and it made a nice little receptacle put your things in there, and the following morning we went on the march, it was I think it was eleven o’clock if I remember rightly. And we went from Gross Tychow on the northern run to the Oder to cross the Oder, the Russians were the other side of Statin further down the Oder, and we had to take, we had to get across and what they did for the ones I was with you went into barges, there was two barges tied together and you was towed across the Oder to the other side. Unfortunately the night before when we got there the Germans said, ‘We’ve got nowhere for you to stay for the night.’ It had been snowing so we had to sleep in the open, but being aircrew boasting to the, we worked out what to do, so there’s some like a cloudy fern at the side, got those down tried to sweep away a bit of snow off, we had overcoats on.
AM: Did you have boots, did you have boots on?
JM: Oh yeah, oh shoes, in those days we’d been, well [coughs] usually when you get shot down you lose your flying boots. So the following morning I say they moved us across by barge and then we had to, we found out afterwards of course that the reason for the panic they was frightened the Russians would catch up with us, whether they was ever in a position to do that I don’t know, but the Germans obviously thought that they did. So then we went on the march across Northern Germany, various places, enjoying it, looking at Germany through the eyes of a hitchhiker. [laughs]
AM: You don’t really mean enjoying it?
JM: Well yes, but it, um, there was too many incidents happened there.
AM: What was it like, what was, ‘cos it’s cold?
JM: Well it had been snowing, remember we set out in February.
AM: Yes.
JM: And it was a cold winter. By the time we got to Fallingbostel the weather was getting better.
AM: What did you eat, what did you eat and drink?
JM: Well that’s a problem, I’ve got the world’s worst memory, so I don’t remember a lot. The two things you must do is you must get sleep and you must have liquids, liquids was a very difficult thing, some of the times the Germans got us liquids a lot of the times they didn’t. When there was snow about if you were lucky enough to get a snow that was still clean it would melt in your mouth, but that causes dysentery anyhow, I know [whispers] that’s the other problem. But, to be honest a lot of the time they found us barns and things like that to sleep in. What you had to remember at that time, March and April of 1945 it was mostly British fighter planes in the air which were having a good time, and one of the barns I was in got shot at and set on fire.
AM: How did you all get out?
JM: One or two people got killed.
AM: Did they?
JM: But to be honest the Germans tried to find us somewhere, but I’m afraid Royal Air Force fighter pilots were seeing something that’s a good target they went for it. [coughs] Fortunately we got to Fallingbostel eventually sometime in April if I remember rightly.
AM: So two months.
JM: We was then there for a couple of days on the station, the man in charge of Fallingbostel decided it was overcrowded so our little lot was moved out again on the road to Lubeck, which we went to, was one or two incidents on the way. But the man I was with, if you in the thing you’ve got to have a friend who you are with and Danny was one of mine, and Danny said to me, ‘Why don’t we just nip out sometime when we stop if there’s a time when we can do it safely.’ And there came one of those times and we just, Danny and I nipped out across the field into the woods and that was it, spent a little bit of the time keeping had to get through the German lines and through the British lines which we did when we got to the Elbe, across the Elbe.
AM: Just the two of you?
JM: Yeah, on a boat there was no oars but the hands work for oars don’t they.
AM: And did you know what you were making for that, did you know that you would find the British lines?
JM: Well not really we know the direction roughly and we’d got ears that tell you a lot, we got, there was only one time where we was in a little bit of trouble, we spent the night in a barn that didn’t have a roof but it was a barn so Dan and I spent the night in there and the village further down about two kilometres further down it was a village where there were German half-tracks and things and logic would say that they should be moving east which meant they wouldn’t come our way they’d go east and we were north of them, so we decided, we saw them moving to go so we decided we would go to the village. Unfortunately they decided to go our way north instead of going east, and it was not a lot of them I remember a Mark IV type of tank was pulling two lorries and there’s half-tracks with Germans at the back and we’re going along and they’re coming and there’s no point in running away doing anything like that, and our jackets were already prepared, chevrons everything was pulled off so there’s nothing, so we just kept on walking and we had a like a French conversation, and if they knew it was French they would have wondered what language we were talking it certainly wasn’t French but it sounded like it, and luckily they were so keen to get away they just ignored us and we just kept on going, and we just kept on going, and going, and going, eating what we could and we eventually came across an aerodrome that had some Dakotas, we went on an RAF pilot we collared him.
AM: What did you think when you finally saw it?
JM: Eh?
AM: What did you think when you finally saw it there?
JM: Well, well, contrary to what other people have said it didn’t make a lot of difference to me. It was just something was happening at the time, the fact that it was the if you like the starting point of going out didn’t occur to us, the RAF pilot he said he was on some sort of exercise for evacuation of prisoners of war, and he was, he did say he that they was taking people like to me somewhere in Belgium for transit, but he said I’m not going that way I’m going direct to Great Britain. And we talked him into taking us and he flew from there to Wing near Aylesbury, I think as part of an exercise sort of, and we got to Wing and that was the nice part. When we was coming towards, they all take you over the white cliffs of Dover don’t they you see that, and he couldn’t head them ‘cos you can’t see much so he said ‘I’ll bank to port and you can all go that side and have a look, anyway he said for goodness sake go back again the balance of the aircraft is all over.’ We got to Wing and unloaded us, Danny and I, I remember [coughs] there was WAAFS and all sorts of things, there was two rather large Salvation Army ladies I remember quite clearly came across and lifted us both up and swung us round said a lot I think then we went inside the hangar where all sorts of people came and cuddled you and things like that, yeah that was a nice thing. And one lady said to me I can send a telegram to your parents if you like, give me all the details which I did and they sent a telegram off to my mum and dad saying I was here. So we had something to eat, I always like this because you see they have all this food out and when you get a plate full suddenly a doctor comes along and takes half of it back you know, saying, ‘You mustn’t eat too much.’ And we went from there to Cosford which was set up as a reception centre, had medicals and things like that, and the station commander apparently if I believe what I’m told, given me concerning reception a chat on how to treat ex-prisoners of war and one of the things what he apparently said if I’m to believe what I’m told, ‘For goodness sake don’t leave anything lying about you’ll find it disappears you know.’ Whether that was true or not I don’t know could well have been ‘cos I was the only judge of a lot of people you live on your wits don’t you. And then after I’d been there for some time there was one little amusing incident you had to see a doctor before you could do anything you had to see a doctor, and that’s after you had been deloused that’s one of the things you get done, deloused straight up. And there was five cubicles and the word got around there’s four male doctors and one female doctor, everybody’s trying to work out where the female doctor was to avoid that one, and we, I can’t remember, say cubicle four, and this cubicle four came up you were next you used to say, ‘You go before me I’m not in a rush.’ And I got pushed into cubicle four and it was a lady doctor, mind you she was getting on a bit she was a nice lady, but it was funny the way people were avoiding her simply because they’d been away all that time. And then we were carted off [coughs] to the station, I remember it quite well it was just an ordinary little local train that went from Cosford to Birmingham, two stations at Birmingham, Snow Hill, and I can’t remember the other one.
AM: New Street, New Street, its New Street now in’t it?
JM: So we did that and when we got on the train that was going north there was just one carriage, there was an RAF policeman at either end of it and that was reserved for people like me, the train was absolutely crowded but our coach wasn’t and nice young ladies served refreshment all the time. And I got to York Station, I’d already notified Elsie my future wife and she was at York Station, and all the time I was in Germany I imagined meeting Elsie it’s a step bridge across the rails at York Station, [unclear] slow motion on that like if you’re on the films, looking forward to this, so I’m going slowly towards Elsie and she went straight past me, I remember that I thought oh dear all that time she doesn’t recognise me, it’s something you remember isn’t it, and that and at the other side there’s my sister and her husband so that was it. And I had instructions to go to the RAF York aerodrome there to see the medical officer which I did and he gave me a form to go to the food office in York, and the following day I went. A man said, ‘Join that queue.’ So I joined the queue, it was in the Assembly Rooms in York which is a lovely place, and I’m in this queue and it occurred to me there’s all pregnant women, there’s all pregnant women getting extra rations, people patting me on the back and one thing and another and I always remember that, and that was it I was back in York.
AM: Back in York, on leave.
JM: [laughs] On leave, yeah, yeah, ubiquitous leave.
AM: What happened after that then up to being demobbed how long?
JM: Well I got, er I don’t think you know that most aircrew, nearly all of them had a rehabilitation period and mine was at an aerodrome off the A1, can’t remember the name of it.
AM: No don’t matter.
JM: Doesn’t really matter, anyway I was there for a month and it just so happened the Royal Air Force band was based there so we had music, and for that four weeks what it consists of Friday morning we got up quite early and the station commander had arranged for a Queen Mary to be there on the grounds we had to go to London for some reason.
AM: Queen Mary, is that the big truck?
JM: Yes.
AM: The big open truck.
JM: And about twenty of us climbed on there and went all the way from the station about fifty miles into London on that, and we had to meet at a certain time to get back and coming back and we did that for four weeks until I got on leave yet again, to arrange the wedding with Elsie.
AM: So she’d recognised you by then?
JM: Oh yes I’d put a bit of weight on and that [laughs] yeah, and took a long time to live it down. So from there where did I go, oh I went to Compton Bassett. They decided to put me on a code and cipher course so I went and code and ciphered Compton Bassett. I was the only warrant officer there, there was all flight lieutenants and squadron leaders going to be code and cipher officers which apparently I was destined to be. So I did that and now I’m a code and cipher officer aren’t I, had to go before the board for a commission and they said, ‘The posting will be to the Middle East they’re looking for code and cipher officers.’ So next time, I got every weekend off, so I’m coming back to London to Elsie and I said I’d been offered a commission but it’s a posting to Middle East code and cipher officer, and Elsie said, ‘No way.’ So I had to turn it down. So then they thought well what do we do with him so they had to [coughs] we had a party for the people who passed the code and cipher officer, and I’m sitting next to a civilian and I said to him, ‘It’s a little bit of an impasse I’m not quite certain what to do.’ And explained the circumstances to him, so he said, ‘Write to the air officer commanding training command for this particular region and apply for a compassionate posting to where you want to go.’ Said, ‘That’s fine I don’t know who the air officer commanding is?’ And he said, ‘Oh it happens to be me.’ So he was, I got to meet him he was coming to Compton Bassett for some reason and I had an interview with him and I said, ‘Well my wife is living in Golders Green which is only two stations off Hendon, Hendon would be a nice place.’ So I got a posting to Hendon and they say what the hell do you do with him. It was nice posting, nine to five Monday to Friday living hours, most enjoyable, 24 Squadron which had the Curtiss every now and then unofficially I used to join one of them and go flying. And then I got I think July 1944 I went to Oxbridge and got demobbed.
AM: ‘45.
JM: ‘44, ’45, ’46.
AM: ’46 we’ve moved on one.
JM: Well you’re allowed a mistake now and then.
AM: Yeah go on then.
JM: And got demobbed and got involved in getting a suit. I think Burtons made a lot of them.
AM: Montague Burtons.
JM: Montague Burtons. Some of them were really quite nice, I think I wore it once, it’s the material was nice the cut not particular, but I’m demobbed anyhow. And the company I used to work for before I went in the Air Force wrote to me to say there’s a job waiting for you.
AM: Is this Rowntrees?
JM: Yeah. So I wrote back and I said, ‘I don’t mind working for you but I want to work in London ‘cos my future wife lives in London.’ They said they can’t do that. The problem is when you come out the Air Force you don’t take very kindly to being instructed and when they said we can give you a job but not especially where you want it, so I said ‘I don’t want it.’ So I went to find a job in London and I was offered a job, the people who make fridges, and they made big American ones, but the problem was the job was stores controller and the man was doing it already but he was not retiring until September October and this was early in the year. So I got a job with Express Dairy which was a place quite close to where Elsie lived and thought I’ll have that job until I get the other one, but enjoyed working at Express so much then I wouldn’t leave although the difference in salaries was quite high, and I worked for Express Dairy for all my working life, and they were taken over by various firms but I still worked for them. And one of the problems if you got taken over if it’s two people doing the same job one of them’s going.
AM: Yes.
JM: And the one that’s going is the one in the highest salary.
AM: Yes.
JM: And I kept on being retained, and I said to Elsie, ‘Must mean that my salary is too low.’ I got offered a job at the main site at Ruislip, the job was in charge of warehousing and things like that, and they said well, and then I had a heart attack everybody does if you’ve got a do you’ve got to have one if you’re in a fashion[?], and I had three months off and the chairman called me and said, ‘You mustn’t go back on this job and I’ll sort it and we’ve found a nice little job for you working as PA assistant for the director who was responsible for production.’ And that’s what I did.
AM: And that’s what you did.
JM: And Dennis Watson was my boss, well nothings been written yet so you’ve got to sit down and write your job description will go from there so that’s what I did. I spent the rest of my time on that job.
AM: As PA.
JM: And his responsibility was keeping an eye on [unclear] functions and things like that and decided on systems, his, and we had seven factories up and down the country. One of my jobs was to visit ‘em now and again, and now and again meant to me when you’re a little bit fed up you get in the car and off you go to a factory and that’s what I used to do. And then when I retired my boss Dennis made a big party at Ruislip and there was about a hundred of us there, and that was it.
AM: And that was it.
JM: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to switch off now Joe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Joseph Musgrove
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-12
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMusgroveJ150812
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Format
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01:11:32 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born in York in 1922, Joseph left school at 14 and started work in a chocolate factory and attended two nights of further education per week. In 1936, a fighter aircraft had landed nearby which stimulated his interest in flying which he retained all his life. After joining the RAF he did well in the selection tests and was offered a position of wireless operator/air gunner. After initial training he went to RAF Madley to train on twin-engined aircraft and then RAF Staverton, RAF Topcliffe and was crewed up at the operational training unit at RAF Edgehill. Gunnery training was carried out on Defiant which were notorious for undercarriage issues. Finally he was posted to 214 squadron at RAF Chedburgh, flying Stirlings.
His first operation was minelaying in the Baltic and he recalls standing in the astrodome to warn of enemy fighters. On other operations he would sit in the front turret and occasionally fire at enemy fighters, without success. Further minelaying operations were carried out and on his eighth, his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and diverted to a US Army Air Force airfield where he stocked up on goodies, unavailable in England from the base exchange store.
On the 22 September 1943 he took part to an operation to Hanover and describes the night fighter tactics in detail. Following lengthy evasive action his aircraft was forced down to 5,000 feet where it was hit by by anti-aircraft fire and he was forced to bail out over Emden where he was caught by a member of the Luftwaffe who was visiting his girlfriend. After initial interrogation he was sent to the interrogation centre at Dalag Luft and after a two day train journey arrived at Stalag 5 prisoner of war camp.
On July 1944 the encroaching Russian army forced the evacuation of the camp and he was moved to the unfinished Luft 4 camp and remembers the bullying guards and poor conditions. Again in February 1945 the camp was evacuated and after crossing the River Oder in barges marched across northern Germany. After two months he arrived at Lübeck and escaped the column, narrowly missing being captured by German soldiers by conversing in French. Finding an allied airfield he was repatriated to England where he was treated as a hero.
After recuperation he attended a code and cipher course and was offered a commission if he would go to the middle-east. Wanting to get married he declined and wangled his way to 24 Squadron at RAF Hendon, were he was eventually demobbed in July 1946.
Contributor
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Terry Holmes
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Herefordshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--London
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany
Europe--Oder River
Germany--Lübeck
Poland
Poland--Tychowo
Lithuania
Lithuania--Šilutė
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1936
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1943-09-22
1944-07
1945-02
1946-07
102 Squadron
214 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
crewing up
Defiant
demobilisation
Dulag Luft
Halifax
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Madley
RAF Shenington
RAF Staverton
RAF Topcliffe
shot down
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
Stirling
strafing
the long march
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8786/PJohnsonKA1507.2.jpg
a4899a68c46a58711c699203c30b2867
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8786/AJohnsonK150603.1.mp3
599f1a032c78b646d3f49ba1ee7a8e7b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnson, Ken
K A Johnson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Johnson, KA
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Ken Johnson (b. 1924, 1595311 Royal Air Force) and one photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-03
2017-04-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
KJ: My name’s Kenneth Alfred Johnson. I joined the RAF at nineteen, I had a trouble getting into the RAF because I was on making barrage balloon cables, so they classed that as – to keep you back. Anyway, I finally joined in 1943, I did my air gunner training which was the, what I was going for, at Dalcross in Scotland. I finally got to OTU, where we crewed up. Mostly, all the different pe – er, people joined together and sorted themselves out, but I didn’t have that opportunity because there was at – further ahead than myself, they was short of air gunners, so they gave us an exam on aircraft recognition and the top six were sent and the crews was picked out for them, they, we had no choice. Anyway, I was very lucky, I got a wonderful crew, an amazing pilot, he’d fought for the Finns against the Russians, an incredible fellow, he was. Anyway, we finally got to operationals. We’d gone through all OTU, which was on Wellingtons, we had a short spell on Stirlings, and then finally, onto Lancasters.
We was sent to Skellingthorpe, which is outskirts of Lincoln, on 61 Squadron. The air, the airfield was joined by, was made up of two squadrons, there were Number 51 – 50 Squadron, and Number 61, and I was on 61. We did – our first raid was a bit of a – well, it was all wrong, really. We were told when we set off that we were gonna bomb very close to our lines, and this was seven, seven days after D-Day, so consequently, we were given a call sign to not to bomb. I remember that after all these years, it were “Billy Bunter”, and we’d got even to the point of opening the bomb doors and this call came over - ‘Billy Bunter, Billy Bunter’, so we closed our bomb doors and set off back for home. Even a long, long way back, we were still hearing the master bomber calling out ‘Billy Bunter, Billy Bunter’ ‘til he finally rush, lost his temper and used a bit stronger language [laughs].
Anyway, that was number one, we finished bombing the North Sea. We did a few operations then, and then it came to the tenth operation, and this was to be a daylight one near Versailles at the V1 bomb installations, so as we got near the target at – I was a mid upper gunner, and I saw this Lancaster above me open his bomb doors and all I could see was two rusty rows, rows of rusty bombs glaring at me. I warned the skipper, but he said ‘Nothing I can do about it, we’re hemmed in, he’ll probably not drop ‘em’. That were wishful thinking, as our bomb aimer said ‘Bombs gone’, so this lot came down on top of us, three bombs hit us - [clears throat] ‘scuse me - one hit the starboard fin and rudder and sliced that off, one hit the starboard wing, knocked about four – it, well, originally it was dangling like, like a bird with a broken wing, about four foot of our wing, and the third one, unfortunately, hit the rear turret and took the rear gunner away with it.
Well, at this point, the intercom went dead, we bounced about the sky for a while ‘til he got it steadied again, but I didn’t know what was happening, they might have been jumping out as far as I knew, but I thought ‘Well, stick to it’, and I sat there, still looking ‘round in case any fighters were around, and it, a little while afterwards, I thought ‘Oh, I haven’t seen the rear turret moving’, that’s when the mid upper turret had no back to it, so by going for’ard, I could see between me legs, where the turret should have been, just a gaping hole. And, anyway, the skipper took us home, and when we got to, into the Skellingthorpe outer circuit, they wouldn’t let us land - [coughs] ‘scuse me, - because a plane had already crashed on one of the runways and they didn’t want to have to close the station down, so we were sent to another place, which happened to be an OTU.
Now, normally, you never carried the ladder that you got into the aircraft with, because o’ it altering the compass. Now, normally, we’d have just jumped out, but that day, I could not have jumped out, I should have landed flat on me face [laughs], so I had to wait ‘til one of the ground crew came and just got hold of me shoulder and helped me out. And the CO, this OTU, came flying out and we were all to – well, he was talking to my skipper that – giving him his condolences, and he said ‘Well, not much I can do for you, but I will give you a slap-up meal in the officers’ mess’. He’d hardly got the words out when a, a rider came out to say we’ve got to go back to Skellingthorpe immediately for the debriefing, so we never did get our slap-up meal. Anyway, the very next night, we were on ops again, and it was down to Bordeaux, South of France. We got over France and ran into an electrical storm, I’d never seen anything like that in me life before - St Elmo’s Fire. Each of the props had two foot of orange flame round them, the, all the aerials, there were little blue, well, it were like fairy lights running up and down the cable. The – oh, by the way, we’d got a new gunner on, of course, and he suddenly started screaming, and it were that bad, the skipper had told the engineer to go and pull his intercom out so we wouldn’t hear it. And, on top of all this fire, there were flashes going off the guns, as though you were firing but you weren’t, and every so often, you’d just drop about five hundred feet as though someone were chopping your legs under you. Anyway, this went on all the way to the target. When we got to the target, amazingly, there was a big gap in the clouds so we could see the target. Only thing is, we couldn’t see each other, so the bomber, the master bomber, said ‘Put all your lights on, and then you’re not, you’ll not gonna collide with each other’, only time we ever bombed with all the, all the lights in the aircraft on.
Anyway, we got to, we came back through the same, with the same carry on, and, as we got near to home, well, first of all, as we got near the Channel, the skipper had asked for a crash dome, there was two big crash domes near Ramsgate - [clears throat] ‘scuse me - and they – anyway, as we passed over the white cliffs, he said ‘Change to that, give me a route for home, I’m taking her home, I’ve brought her this far and I’m taking her home,’ and when we got home, we couldn’t land ‘cause of somebody else crashing, so we finished up at this other place. The very next night, no, I’ve already said that, they did a perfect landing, and that was the end of that one, that was the tenth raid. We had, at, as we got near the thirtieth, they, they altered the number of ops you’d got to do for a tour, so instead of thirty, we were supposed to gonna do thirty-six, but we did another three and the skipper said, the toad had been altered from thirty to thirty-six, so the skip, skipper suggested we do three and go on a ten-day holiday sort of thing, and then come back and do another three and we get another ten days, but it didn’t work out, they’d dropped it back to thirty when we came back [laughs]. So, we were Tour Expired. Well, four of us, the skipper said he were gonna go on with another tour straight away, you could have a rest but we didn’t, so four of us (that was the skipper, flight engineer, wireless operator and myself) said we’d go on this next tour, and the skipper had got a choice of where he wanted to go. One was on Pathfinders, one was on to 617 and the other one was Number 9 Squadron, which at that time was joining 617 on all special raids, carrying the twelve thousand pound Tallboy bomb, so really there was no argument about it because he was rather sweet on a, a WAAF officer at Bardney, which was 9 Squadron, so it was 9 Squadron.
And, as I say, we were only allowed to go on special ops and [pause] the first one, I unfortunately didn’t go on, because they, they took the mid upper turrets out to go and bomb the Tirpitz, and they put a Llewellyn 10 wind tank inside the fuselage, so to make room for that, they had to take the mid upper turret out. Well they, you might be interested in this, they bombed the Tirpitz and sank it and, a couple o’ days later, all those that were on the raid had to go into the briefing room, and ‘cause I would not been on it, I didn’t go in, I can only say what I was told. This, the CO came in with a bucketful of medals, now he, there weren’t no names on them because it was a – Churchill had said ‘The squadron must have these medals’, so first of all, they chose all those that had been on three raids for the Tirpitz, they all got a medal, then they found there were enough for those that had been on two, but there wasn’t enough for those that been on the last raid, so when it came to the last raid, they pulled names out of the hat - [coughs] ‘scuse me - rather annoyed my skipper because he thought it were demeaning, the, the idea of the medal. He’d already got DFC for bringing that damaged aircraft back. Anyway, that’s the way that was done.
After that, we did such targets as viaducts, we went to Bergen for the submarine pens, and they were all them sort of chosen targets. On the Bergen one, we were always Number One Wind Finder, because I had in my crew, I’d got the squadron bomb aimer and the squadron navigator, so we were always Number One Wind Finder. There were six aircraft, two had to be wind finders, and what we did, you had to go over a chosen, chosen point, set this machine going, fly around for so long, then come back over the same heading and then stop the machine, and then all the, the other five radioed in their – what they’d got, and it was up to our navigator, then, to sort out the wind from the chat. And on this Bergen raid, we, bomb aimer had chosen to go over a, a supposedly deserted airfield, and it chose the, where the runways crossed to do. Anyway, as we’re coming back for the second time, he were counting fighters coming up against us [slight laugh], and he got to forty-one when we, we’d got out of range then, so we knew they were gonna be in trouble, and we bombed the – I could never understand why the fighters didn’t attack ‘em before they bombed, they waited while we bombed, and we came out over a strip of land and then to the sea again. There was five fighters to one bomber, and there was one behind us, it -crew from our squadron, they got [unclear] got onto him, he put up a good fight, he shot one of them down, but they finally forced him into t’sea and it just disintegrated.
Now, I can’t think for a minute there’d be any of the crew alive, but one came to us and I thought ‘Oh, it’s our turn now’, but he suddenly realised he was alone. The other three were strafing the wreckage in the sea, and so he went and joined ‘em, lucky for us, and gave us chance to get away. But, after the war, and we went to these different reunions and that, there was very often a German fighter pilot come to these. I’m afraid I could never be friendly to ‘em, what I saw that day were – I was absolutely disgusted. Anyway, we, we finally finished up doing forty-four ops, so I consider myself a lucky person. I always felt there was guardian angel on me shoulder, but after the VE Day, they asked for volunteers for the Tiger Force, but I was getting married in three weeks’ time, so I thought ‘Well, I’ve done me share, I’m not gonna volunteer for it’. So, first of all, we went to a, another squadron that, that they’d formed, calling them North West Strike Force; the idea was, they thought the hardened Nazis would go up into the mountains and start a guerrilla warfare, but it never came to that, so after about three months, that was finished. And then I was put on ground staff and I was sent out to Egypt, I’d only been married three weeks [slight laugh], they sent me out to Egypt, driving. Well, I was in charge of a [unclear], a, not them, what d’you call it? A number of lorries, I’d got thirty lorries, it was on Alexandria docks, and I’d thirty lorries taking stuff down to the canal zone ‘cause the Brits then were starting to pull out of it, ah, Egypt altogether. But, apart from those lorries, at weekends I could have as many as a hundred lorries come from Cairo all wanting a load to take back.
Well, I were closing down, not only RAF but Navy and Army places, and at first, I made the mistake of ringing up and saying ‘What size lorries do you want for your…?’ and they’d all said ‘Ten tonners’. When the lorry came back, he’d have little crate on the back, so I thought ‘That’s no good’, so I had a little thirteen-hundredweight Dodge, and I used to go out to these places and estimate how many lorries I wanted and what size lorries and so on, and that worked wonderfully well. It were, one day, I got a phone call from a matron of a big hospital in Alex, the nurses want, some of the nurses wanted to go to Cairo for a week’s leave, would I, could I get some o’ t’lorry drivers to take ‘em? Well, they’re a lot better to go hundred and sixty-five mile wi’ a female companion than be on your own, so there plenty of volunteers for that, and that was still running when I left, that shuttle service [laughs]. Everybody seemed happy about it, so yeah, wonderful. And had ten mon – ten months in [pause] in Egypt, and, just before I came home, they dropped us all down from, well, myself were a warrant officer, dropped us down to sergeants, I thought ‘That’s a nice thank-you [slight laugh] for what you’ve done!’ And anyway, that were it, I came, I came home and immediately joined the, a Observer corps, we had quite some nice times, go out to this spot and we were spotting aircraft, but eventually, they, all they were interested in was nuclear, and the, the idea was that if there was a nuclear war and you’ve got to go to this station (mine was out at, near Finningley Airport, where we were), but you had to stay there ‘til the all clear. I thought, ‘No, that’s not for me, if I, if my family’s out there, then I’m gonna be out there as well, I’m not leaving t’family’. Anyway, thank God, it never materialised. So, oh, on one thing on this, while we were on the obs – air observers, the, our CO for the whole northern area was Pegler, that had the Flying Scotsman, and he arranged it for us to go to air show at – the big air show, anyway, and he took us down in his, in the Scotsman, and the, he’d got the observation car in, and each carriage got half an hour in ‘t observation car [laughs], but it was quite a, quite nice, yeah. Then, well, finally, we got back to civvies and got back to working again, and you’d be amazed how hard that was, settling down in civvy street again, even though I’d only been in the RAF four and a half year.
MJ: Battery change on Ken Johnson. On behalf of the International Bomber Command Archive Unit, I’d like to thank Ken Johnson for his recording on the date was the 3rd of June, June? Yeah, June 2015 at his home. Thank you very much.
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Interview with Ken Johnson. One
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-03
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Sound
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AJohnsonK150603
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:25:22 audio recording
Description
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Kenneth Alfred Johnson joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 19, after being in a reserved occupation making barrage balloon cables. He trained as an air gunner, serving as a mid-upper gunner.
He had a spell at the Operational Training Unit, flying Short Stirlings and Avro Lancasters before joining 61 Squadron at Skellingthorpe.
He tells of an incident on his 10th operation, when he was on a daylight trip near Versailles at the V1 bomb installations when his aircraft was directly below a Lancaster which opened it’s bomb doors. The Lancaster above dropped its bombs, which damaged Kenneth’s aircraft, including carrying away the rear gunner.
Kenneth completed 34 operations on his first tour, and then went straight onto another tour, being posted to 9 Squadron at Bardney.
After VE Day, Kenneth was posted to Egypt in charge of lorries returning from Cairo.
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Vivienne Tincombe
61 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb struck
Lancaster
RAF Bardney
RAF Dalcross
RAF Skellingthorpe
service vehicle
strafing
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/944/11387/PMakensL1701.2.jpg
05b7ba41508ba4dde289a303dae307f7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/944/11387/AMakensL170117.1.mp3
f837a144815b5928751ae6cb9c78ae50
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Title
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Makens, Louis
L Makens
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Louis Makens (1921 - 2018, 1442236 Royal Air Force). He flew six operations as an air gunner with 196 Squadron before being transferred to 76 Squadron. He joined a new crew as a mid under gunner and their Halifax was shot down 18/19 March 1944 on his first operation with them. He became a prisoner of war and took part in the long march.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Makens, L
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DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Louis Maken.
LM: No. No. No.
Other: Louis.
DK: Louis. Sorry. Sorry. Louis Makens.
LM: My grandson. He don’t like it.
DK: Misinformed. I was misinformed [laughs] 17th of January 2017. If I put that there.
LM: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m not being rude I’m just making sure it’s still working. I’ve only been caught out by the technology once. It was a bit embarrassing.
LM: It wouldn’t take a lot to catch me out.
Other: No. It wouldn’t.
DK: Right. Ok. What I’m going to ask you first of all was going back now what were you doing immediately before the war?
LM: I worked on a farm.
DK: Ok.
LM: Market gardening and ordinary agriculture on a farm.
DK: Ok. So and then war started. What made you then want to join the RAF?
LM: We had, we were called up weren’t we? We had to register and I went for an interview and they gave me the choice of what you’d like to do and not being very smart I volunteered for air crew.
DK: Right.
LM: And went back to work and I suppose it must have been about a few months. Something like. I was about nineteen I got my call up papers saying to report to Uxbridge.
DK: Right.
LM: That was where they had done all the interviewing.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And they asked you silly, well not silly little questions I suppose but half multiplied by half. That was one of the questions on, at the interview. And another one was if the Suez Canal got blocked how would the transport, how would they get cargo around to England?
DK: Oh right.
LM: And which was a long way around.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: The Cape of Good Hope, wasn’t it? And from then on I just had my papers come in. Called up. Report to Uxbridge and then from Uxbridge I went to a place called Padgate. We were kitted out at Padgate and I actually volunteered wireless operator air gunner.
DK: Right.
LM: And I’d done Blackpool in 1942 and there were some old hangars there where we used to do Morse Code [coughs] Morse Code in and I had a spell there and they asked for straight air gunners which was a lot quicker course.
DK: Right.
LM: Why? I don’t know why I volunteered for that. I don’t know to this day. Anyway, I volunteered and I was taken off the course there and from then on I had a life of leisure.
DK: Right.
LM: I went to a place called Sutton Bridge. That was a fighter OT Unit.
DK: Yeah.
LM: General duties. From Sutton Bridge the whole squadron moved up to Dundee and under the Sidlaw Hills. And there was a Russian aircraft landed at the airfield at Dundee.
DK: Oh right.
LM: And the camouflage was really marvellous.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And that was where I was on general duties up there as well. What we were doing going around with little bits and pieces. Anything. Anything there was to do which you’d gather what general duties mean.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Everything. And then I was called to, I got my call up from —
DK: Just stepping back a bit you never found out what the Russian aircraft was doing there then.
LM: Yes. Molotov.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
LM: Molotov came over.
DK: Oh.
LM: I’m sorry about that I should have —
DK: Did you actually see him?
LM: Yeah. No I never. No. No.
DK: No. Oh right.
LM: Only saw the plane at a distance.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Oh yeah.
DK: Wow.
LM: And it was quite funny really because I wouldn’t have believed it. There was a Scottish lad worked with me and he said to me, ‘Louis,’ he said, ‘How would you like to my parents and just meet my parents and just have a cup of tea with them.’ They lived in Dundee.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I had to get him to interpret what they said. I [pause] Dundee was really broad and I felt a really Charlie because you had to say, ‘Sorry. What did you say?’ and I had, I had to say things like that. But from there on I got called back to a place called Sealand.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And that’s where I met up with two lads who had already been the same thing as me further afield but they’d been on a wireless so they had decided to remuster as well. Quicker course. We’ll get in to action. Silly weren’t we?’ Anyway, Stan Gardiner was one of them and Harold Lambourn and how, I think Stan Gardener was a welterweight boxer. I didn’t realise that at the time.
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
LM: But I often wonder. We parted because they remustered as pilots.
DK: Right.
LM: And I remustered to straight air gunner. Well, while we were at Sealand we used to go with a Polish squadron and fly with a Polish squadron in Lysanders. Dive bombing for the ack ack training. And we used to fly up the Dee and almost looked up at the houses because you approached and then they’d quick climb and then dive on their guns.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But then I was posted to, from there I left them and I was posted to [home] house in London. That’s where we done the Lord’s Cricket Ground. Was it Lords or the Oval? One of those. And that’s where we’d done gas training and things like that and from there I was posted on to Bridlington and that’s where I done my gunnery, ITW for the second time.
DK: Right.
LM: And from there I was posted on to Stormy Downs.
DK: What did, what did the training involve then at ITW?
LM: At the ITW?
DK: Yeah.
LM: It was back to square one. You know what I mean by square one? Square bashing.
DK: Oh right.
LM: But we did go in to, Bridlington had on the front there was a shooting range. A twelve bore shooting range. Clay pigeons.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I won the competition and won twelve shillings and sixpence. And there was —
DK: You obviously went into the right duties then as an air gunner.
LM: I came away the best shot of the lot. I suppose I must have been. But no. But cutting it short there at Bridlington and then Stormy Down. From Stormy Down we went to Stradishall.
DK: Yeah.
LM: First we were on Wellingtons and then Stradishall was conversion on to Stirlings.
DK: Right.
LM: Now, I think —
DK: Just stepping back can you remember what it was you were flying at Stradishall? Just —
LM: Stirlings at Stradishall. I’m trying to think where I’d done my OTU. I’m not so sure where the Wellington, when I’d done the OTU on. I went to so many places. I’m not sure if I could swear blind.
DK: No.
LM: Where the Wellingtons were stationed. Where we, they had so many of them.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But I finished up at Stradishall and that’s where we were crewed up and already crewed up and I happened to be the seventh member of the crew.
DK: Right.
LM: Which I was a top gunner. A mid-upper.
DK: How did the crewing up work?
LM: Just, I was just introduced to them.
DK: Right.
LM: They were already crewed up.
DK: Right.
LM: But as they —
DK: They needed a gunner.
LM: As a yeah. They had to have a top gunner.
DK: Yeah.
LM: For the start of the four engines. Then finished Stradishall. And that’s where I’d done the odd circuits and bumps and that sort of thing. And one particular night I was laying in bed and I heard this machine gun fire and it was a Focke Wulf had come back that night. I got up the next morning. A Focke Wulf had come back and shot one of our planes down doing circuits and bumps and the only one hurt or I think I’m sure the news was that he got killed and he was Canadian. And he was a screened pilot. What we called a screened pilot.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Was one who, you know —
DK: Already done a tour.
LM: Already done his tour and I think he was teaching us to land.
DK: And he was killed in a, back in the UK while training others.
LM: Yeah. A fighter come back with the bombers to wherever they were going to or from and must have picked up Stradishall and that was how. So the next night we had to go. I was on the next night on circuits and bumps and of course the warning was if there’s a bandit in the area all the ‘drome lights would go out.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And of course, what happened? All the lights went out didn’t they? And we were still stooging around, stooging around, stooging around, waiting for well we didn’t know what was going to happen. Everybody was on edge and all of a sudden the lights come on. It was a dummy run. So we were a bit relieved about that but then after my OTU there and the, and the conversion at Stradishall I was posted to 196 Squadron Witchford.
DK: Right. Ok.
LM: As the mid, mid-upper gunner.
DK: Still on Stirlings.
LM: Still on Stirlings.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Yeah.
DK: So what were your thoughts about the Stirling then when you first saw it and flew in it?
LM: Well, as we went to Stradishall they stood behind almost on the edge of the road where we went.
DK: Right.
LM: And they were massive and if you can imagine what a Wellington was like. Quite low down.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You could almost touch the nose. These Stirlings. They’re twenty two foot to the nose in the air. I have to be careful what I say if this is going down on there. But —
DK: We can edit the bits out later.
LM: Well, yeah. You’ll better cut this piece out because I think what happened our pilot who he’d been out in Rhodesia, flying out in Rhodesia and I think when he saw them he got a fright.
DK: Really?
LM: We had [laughs] we had some near misses. Or near tragedies. When you come in to land you’ve got your three lights. Red too low.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Green. Lovely. Amber too high. We would come in on no lights at all.
DK: Right.
LM: Nose down. And I just used to sit there like that. ‘Christ, what’s he doing?’ And I could have landed the plane quite easily because when you sit in that top turret a beautiful view and I used to sit on the beam like that and check, check, check and I could get that to a tee. I’m not boasting about how. I couldn’t fly a plane anyway. But the bomb aimer, the wireless operator he had his parachute like that every time we landed and we came in —
DK: Not giving the pilot confidence is it? Or having confidence in your pilot if he’s doing that.
LM: No. None whatsoever.
DK: No.
LM: We’d been to Skagerrak mine laying and we came in this night and I got caught sharp a bit. Get down a bit. Down a bit. A bit high. Came in. Bang. We hit the ground, smashed the undercarriage up.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Soared up unto the air and of course came down again and the undercarriage had gone because we went down on to one wing and slid, as luck would have it we went off the runway onto the grass. We never did land on the runway or take off on it. There was either run off at the end or whatever. Oh, you have got to watch what you put on there haven’t you? [laughs] He might be alive. I don’t know what happened. Later on I was, we didn’t, we went on, went from Witchford to Leicester East. Irby.
DK: Right. Just going back to Witchford can you remember how many operations you did from there?
LM: Altogether there was six.
DK: Right.
LM: That was the seventh one. Number seven on the night we got shot down.
DK: Right.
LM: And that was the first time on the first raid we’d done with, first I’d done with Halifaxes.
DK: Right. So when did you convert to the Halifax then?
LM: Well, I didn’t convert. I was just, we were made surplus.
DK: Right.
ILM: We went towing gliders and that sort of thing and eventually that was what they called we were transferred to what they called the AEAF. That’s the Allied Expeditionary Air Force so therefore they decided they didn’t want a top turret. Extra drag. Which you would get wouldn’t you?
DK: Yeah.
LM: With the top turret on so we were made redundant in a way.
DK: Right.
LM: And there were six of us were taken off 196 Squadron and we were posted to Marston Moor and from Marston Moor we were then sent up to Holme on Spalding Moor. They had then fitted a gun emplacement, a beam if you’d like to call it that underneath the plane.
DK: And that’s on the Halifaxes.
LM: That was on the Halifaxes.
DK: It was like a belly gun in effect.
LM: A mid-under they called it.
DK: Yeah. Right.
LM: It wasn’t a turret as such it was just a, it was a piece of metal stuck on the bottom as near as near as I can explain it.
DK: Right.
LM: You had a .5 between your legs.
DK: Was that something the squadron itself had done or was it an official —
LM: It was what they were trying to get.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We were getting so many attacks from below.
DK: Right.
LM: Because as you know you can’t see below your own height can you?
DK: Yeah.
LM: It’s very difficult to see. You can see upwards but you can’t see below your own horizon.
DK: And were you aware at the time that a lot of the attacks by the Germans were from underneath?
LM: It was known.
DK: It was known.
LM: It was well known.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Oh yes. Yeah. That was well known. That was the idea of fetching this gun underneath.
DK: Right.
LM: And the Germans knew very well that we were [pause] well no protection underneath at all coming up from —
DK: So, you’re now with 76 Squadron at this point.
LM: That was 76 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Yeah.
DK: So, you’re now in the, in the belly.
LM: That’s it.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Well, I had never met my crew that I flew on that night with.
DK: Right.
LM: We went to briefing. We went, we’d done a little bit of training on it. There weren’t all that much more training to do. It was only sort of getting used to a .5 and that sort of thing and a fair old go on that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And the first time I actually met my crew was when I was a prisoner of war.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Well, after I’d been shot down I should say.
DK: Right. So you only did the one operation [unclear]
LM: That was the very first one.
DK: And you were shot down.
LM: We were shot down the very first night. There was six of us went and I think there were three of us allocated to go that night.
DK: Right.
LM: March the 18th 1944. I should have been at a wedding.
DK: Can you recall where the operation was to?
LM: Yes. Oh yeah. Frankfurt.
DK: Frankfurt. Ok.
LM: Yeah. Frankfurt. And we were about twenty, twenty minutes from the target.
DK: Right.
LM: And everything was quiet. Not a very good thing in a way and we hadn’t crossed any borders as such for anti-aircraft or anything like that and every now and again the pilot would just call up and say, ‘Are you alright?’ And so forth, ‘Gunner.’ So forth. And the next thing I knew there was a blaze of bullets, well incendiaries, you couldn’t see the bullets. Incendiaries. And I sat in the turret like that you see facing the rear and the bullets came through, went between my legs. Almost. I was stood. They went between my legs. Well, there was the pilot looking out the front. There was the navigator [pause] could have been I suppose. The bomb aimer should have been in the, in the astrodome looking out. Top gunner in the top turret. The only two of us who saw the bullets were myself and the rear gunner.
DK: And this was from a German aircraft presumably.
HLM: That was [laughs] that’s hard to say.
DK: Oh right.
LM: I don’t know. We never saw the plane. It was head on.
DK: Right [unclear]
LM: So was it one of ours?
DK: Ah.
LM: Well, I’ll never know.
DK: No.
LM: I don’t think so.
DK: No.
LM: But they were fairly heavy. It weren’t small machine gun fire so it could well have been a night fighter. And when you think that no one up front saw the tracers at all.
DK: Were they an experienced crew do you know? Or —
LM: Were they —?
DK: Were they an experienced crew that you —
LM: They’d done, they’d done seven nights. They’d already done seven operations.
DK: Right. Ok [unclear]
LM: Yeah. And four that night.
DK: Right.
LM: Yeah. Yeah. They weren’t over experienced. Like I was I suppose. But, but they hadn’t, they, I sometimes think how ever I got away with being missed in that dustbin when you think of the midair of that aircraft wing as mid —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Fuselage.
DK: It’s, you’re in there then.
LM: That’s right. That little bit underneath.
DK: Yeah. Do you know what other damage was done to the aircraft then? Or —
LM: Well, we caught on fire.
DK: Right.
LM: Yeah. They hit the inboard. The inboard starboard engine and I thought well that’s all right. With the old extinguishers put the flames out. Anyway, we went on a little while and there was quite a, it was getting quite light then because we were on fire and the pilot, David Josephs was my pilot. Never knew him at the time.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But I found out later on and he said, ‘Prepare to bale out.’ Which is the first thing, isn’t it? So I opened my hatch up and just stood there. Kept on the intercom. Kept on oxygen and the top gunner he’d already got out of his turret and he came down and opened the back hatch.
DK: Right.
LM: And he must have thought because it was quite light because of the flames and so forth and he thought, I think he thought I’d been hit because I was still in the turret and standing up. He came back and he went to get a hold of me like that and I went, ‘Ok. I’m alright. I’m alright. I’m ok.’ Well, the pilot hadn’t told us to bale out then. But he did eventually say, ‘Right. Well, better get out. Bale out.’ So that was myself and the top gunner. We went to the back hatch and when you go out you have to roll out otherwise you’re likely to hit the tailplane or the fin.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Which is easily done. So it was quite comical in a way. It must have been a comedy act. We stood near the hatch or laid near the hatch arguing who was going out first. I’d, I’d seen it happen. People who baled out and they’d extinguished the flames, the [unclear] switch or something like that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And put the flames out and they’d flown back.
DK: Right.
LM: I thought I’m not going to be, I’m not going to be here on my own so we, Spider went out first and I toddled out behind him. But I went out with my arms folded like that because when I put my parachute on you don’t wear it all, you sort of have it beside you.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: So I quick put on my hooks.
DK: So you [unclear] then
LM: Clipped them on the hooks.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And I think what happened you’re supposed to leave, lose speed count up to seven because you’re travelling at a hundred and something, a hundred and eighty mile an hour. The first thing I knew, bang. The parachute had, whether the slipstream caught my hands and my parachute, must have pulled the parachute, the rip cord.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The next thing I knew that was bang. Oh, the pain, the jerk on your neck. People don’t realise it’s a —
DK: As the parachute opened.
LM: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
LM: It almost feels like you break, you know.
DK: So is it is it a chest ‘chute you’ve got then?
LM: Yeah. Chest.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Chest it was. No seated ones then. We always carried them and just stuck them in the little hole at the side of the, of your turret.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And anyway, I don’t know how long it was coming down but when I looked down I thought, oh shite. Water. I thought I can’t be over water. That’s one thing I always dreaded. Coming down in the, in the sea. And what it was the plane was on fire and that had gone down and there was snow on the ground and little hillocks that looked like waves.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And [unclear] It just looked like a patchwork of little waves. Anyway, the lower I got they disappeared. Anyway, I hit, the next thing I knew I was laying on my back groaning. I can remember now as if it was yesterday I laid there and thought oh, oh. I sort of shook myself up and of course up I got and I tried to pull the parachute in and got caught on a tree.
DK: Right.
LM: Right on the edge of a wood. As I went to pull the parachute in I thought, oh Christ there’s someone there. One of my old crew. So I sort of called out. No answer. It was just somebody falling in.
DK: Yeah.
LM: It wasn’t a crew at all. It was a piece of grass that was just doing that with the back light, the back sight of the flaming plane where it had gone down on the horizon.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Was casting this little piece of grass going along. I could imagine someone pulling a parachute in.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Anyway, I couldn’t get the parachute off the tree. I tried to get it down and I had to leave. What I’d done I just curled up under a hedge and I don’t know where the hell [pause] escape kit. Lost it. I had it, you had it park it on the side of your leg and it must have come out as I was upside down or —
DK: What would have been in the escape kit you’d got [unclear] ?
LM: Oh, you’d got a map.
DK: Right.
LM: Chocolate. One or two. Quite little bits of ration material.
DK: Right.
LM: A compass, etcetera but I lost them and so I curled up under a hedge and I had to sleep until it was daybreak. And I got up the next morning and when I woke up and I thought now sun is coming up in the east. If I go towards the sun I might make my way to France. But I wasn’t anywhere near France, was I? [laughs] Not really. I wouldn’t have met, I don’t think I would have, I don’t know. But anyway, I knew I wanted to go east because of the sun coming up and Germany here, France going in that direction sort of business and I thought if I make my way that way I might be able to come up against somebody but I went and I travelled for a day and never saw anybody. The next day I was walking what do you do? I covered my, took my boots and covered them up. I was lucky in a way digressing a little bit normally you know the old flying boot we used to have?
DK: Yeah.
LM: The old fleecy lined things.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Huge things. Well, I hadn’t. My equipment hadn’t arrived at 76 Squadron so I borrowed the squadron leader’s equipment. His flying boots. And we had, I had an electrically heated suit.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because it was cold. We are talking about twenty two frost and I had an electrically heated suit. That’s your socks and just a jacket and I had his size elevens flying boots. Normally your flying boots fly off which they will do quite easily. That just shows the force of the parachute opening doesn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
LM: And how I kept them on I can only imagine I had electrically heated socks inside them. That’s how I think, the only way I can think I kept those shoes or flying boots three times the size of mine.
DK: So they were wedged in there with the sock.
LM: They must have been fairly —
DK: Yeah.
LM: No end of people. That’s the, my pilot lost his.
DK: Yeah.
LM: He was walking about with a, when I saw him last, the first time I met him he had got pieces of rag wrapped around his feet and that was one of the problems. Getting frostbite.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I think I got a little bit of frostbite on that ear and it’s still there. But lucky I didn’t get any more and no one else did. Anyway, I eventually I got, I did walk into two, I’d compare them with our Home Guard.
DK: Right.
LM: Two old boys walking over a bridge and where the village was, God knows, I have no idea and these two old lads walked towards me and all of a sudden they walked towards, crossed the road towards me like that and he pulled out a big revolver and I, that’s it. So I put my hands up. ‘Flieger. Flieger.’ And they took me back to their headquarters all dolled out with Hitlerites and all that sort of thing on the wall and they weren’t very, they didn’t seem too bad. They were the oldest of people and they took me to their little headquarters and then they had to get the Army to come and pick me up and they took me to another, somewhere else. Got above, it was only a walk from somewhere else to there. Well then, they sent in ex-RAF. The Luftwaffe.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Two of them came and picked me up and I was a little bit lucky in a way because we were walking along. They didn’t bother too much about whether you’d got hit or not. The Germans didn’t care. If somebody hit you with a hammer even. We was walking along and it was a Hitler Youth I think. Something in that region. He came up, he said, a lot of them spoke good English. He said, ‘Did you raid Cologne? Were you on a raid on Cologne?’ I said, ‘No. No. No. No.’ I said, ‘This was my first raid. First time.’ Well, it was a lie because I’d already got the 1939 43 Star on my tunic.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And he didn’t think nothing. He couldn’t have been, he couldn’t have fathomed that one out because well he probably didn’t know what they, what it was anyway.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And he just went away because Cologne was awful one wasn’t it? That was an awful thing.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And eventually they took me to their barracks and they were good. They gave me, the Germans, they gave me a lovely piece of black bread and jam. I’d had one taste of it and I threw it across the bloody cell. I thought, oh Christ and I couldn’t eat it. I just could not eat it. Which I learned different later on. Well, I went and laid on this old bunk of a bed sort of thing and the next thing I knew there was a boot in my back and they, then they brought the pilot. They’d got the pilot.
DK: Right.
LM: And one, I think that was the rear gunner. They’d picked them up as well. And that’s the first time I had met my pilot.
DK: Bizarre.
LM: And we were on our own until we got on with the crew itself.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But for some reason David Josephs, name spelled Joseph, J O S E P and do you remember Keith Josephs?
DK: The politician?
LM: Yes.
DK: Oh yes. Yes.
LM: He was the dead spit.
DK: Oh Right. Oh.
LM: Exact. Exact. Well he palled, why I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
LM: He palled up with me.
DK: Right.
LM: Not his crew.
DK: Did you think he was related then or —
LM: Well, I would have swore blind he was. He never said. We never spoke about private life. We never told each other what we’d done, or what we did or what we hadn’t done or anything like that. It was just you met them and that was it.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Like when we left we never left any, I often wish I had have done. Kept in touch perhaps with two of the lads I escaped with. I would have loved to have known what happened to them.
DK: No.
LM: But you don’t. You’re so keen to just carry on. Carry on. Carry on regardless of what goes on around you really. It’s —
DK: So were you then sent to a proper prisoner of war camp at that point?
LM: I was taken back. Now this is the bit that really peeved me at one time because I often think of it. They took me back to Frankfurt.
DK: Right.
LM: And I saw Frankfurt’s Railway Station what they were doing to Germany that we were doing or we were getting over in London and I thought the very same thing. There was people on the station with a, one particular person there was a woman with a little child and they’d got a basket, a linen basket like that between them.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I suppose they were trying to get out. Mind you that was two days after they’d been bombed quite a bit then day and night you see. We were full incendiary. That was all we carried that night was incendiaries.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But that, then I’d done solitary confinement. They put you in solitary there and there was a raid on that night and that [pause] we had all sort of a, there was solitary confinement and there was a blind you could almost it was like a slab of blind and the light, you could even see the lights flashing through this sort of one of these old plated blinds sort of things.
DK: But flashes of the explosions.
LM: Yeah. Of the, of the raid.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Yeah. And I was there three days and they asked you all sorts of questions and a corporal he must, think he was a corporal he looked like it to me. Got a couple of stripes of some sort and he came down and he interviewed so forth to this. He’d got a big list where I’d come from. You only say what you know. Or you’re supposed to say name, rank and [pause] name, rank and whatever.
DK: I was going to ask that. If I could just take you back a bit did you have training as to what to do if you were caught as a —
LM: None whatsoever. We were —
DK: Ok [laughs]
LM: We were just told the general thing. Name, rank and number.
LM: It was a general thing. Name, rank and that’s all.
DK: So you had no other training if you ever were captured.
LM: No. No. that’s all we, never even had trained parachute jumping. Never had. Never had a [pause] The art is the falling over and rolling over you see.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Well, I hit the ground straight legged.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I think that’s why I knocked myself out. I think that’s the reason. I must have hit the ground straight legged.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Instead of doubling up and falling over.
DK: Yeah. And rolling. Yeah.
LM: Which is the correct way.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I knew the way but you can’t tell how far off the ground you are you see.
DK: At night. Yeah.
LM: And the last fifteen feet or the last little bit was like jumping off the wreck and like jumping off a fifteen foot wall when you hit the ground quite hard.
DK: Yeah.
LM: So that was part and parcel. They’d never done, I don’t know if it was the pilot’s fault or not. I don’t know ‘til this day if he should have made his crew take part in —
DK: Training. Yeah.
LM: Escaping or whatever or what to say what not to say. No one else did. We never had any training of that at all.
DK: And, and dinghy practice. Did you ever have any of that?
LM: No. we were, I did learn to swim.
DK: Right.
LM: At Blackpool and if we could swim a width.
DK: Right.
LM: That’s all you had to do.
DK: So you had no training on what to do if you crashed on water, baling out or — [unclear]
LM: No, we had none.
DK: No.
LM: I think some did.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We had no training whatsoever.
DK: Wow.
LM: Never had. They just, all they told us was when you go out to roll over the hatch.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Rather than the other way.
DK: Avoiding the —
LM: I had seen a lad. He had knocked his teeth out. He’d hit the tailplane. But apart from that we didn’t. It was —
DK: Yeah.
LM: The discipline I suppose we were treated very leniently.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because when I I thought I was going to get out of a church parade so when I joined up they say religion. I said none. I thought I’ll get out of church parade doing this and they put atheist on my dog tags.
DK: Oh right.
LM: So they were on until the day I lost them.
DK: Oh right. Can I just take you back then to Frankfurt? You were interrogated there after three days.
LM: Yes.
DK: Solitary confinement, so you’ve only given name, rank and serial number and that. What happened after? Next after that?
LM: They don’t [pause] they will keep you there and keep asking you questions and they showed me a list. I thought good God. They could have shown, they could have told me much more than I knew. I couldn’t. I couldn’t. If I’d have wanted I couldn’t have told them anything.
DK: So their intelligence then on the aircraft, the squadron —
LM: They knew every airfield. They knew every airfield and what there was. They got this map of every, almost every airfield in this country.
DK: Wow. Did they know who was based there on these airfields?
LM: They knew the squadrons as well. They’d got the squadrons down. My old squadron 196.
DK: Yeah.
LM: That was down there. I may have shown that because I thought 196 I just and the realised then that —
DK: Yeah.
LM: You don’t think that they’re using you know on the spur of the moment. I thought 196 and Witchford.
DK: So they had all that intelligence. Did they have names at all as to who the commanding officers were?
LM: No idea.
DK: No. No.
LM: No. I don’t. What on the German side you mean?
DK: On the other side. Yeah.
LM: No. I wouldn’t. No. No. There was the treatment we got in the prison camp we can’t grumble.
DK: Right.
LM: I mean we went over there.
DK: Can you remember which prison camp it was?
LM: Yeah. After leaving, after leaving Frankfurt.
DK: Yeah.
LM: On the old cattle trucks and we were going along and I thought oh whatever is that smell? Christ. And there was a lot of us in this cattle truck. I didn’t realise at the time it was an American and he had been, he must have been loose a little bit for a while before he got caught because he’d got frost bite and his foot had got gangrene and I’d never smelled anything like it. He sat with his shoe off and he was like that and I realised then what he’d got. And his foot was absolutely. I don’t know what it was like inside the sock but he’d obviously got frost bite and it had turned to gangrene.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we called at a place called Sagan. That’s Stalag Luft 3.
DK: So it’s Stalag Luft 3.
LM: That’s the officers.
DK: Yeah.
LM: That’s the officer’s camp.
DK: Right.
LM: Stopped at the officers off or whatever there was to get off there and from there on we travelled through Poland by train and I can’t tell to this day how long so I weren’t one of those who made notes of where we were, what we’d done, it was just one of those things. You accepted what had happened and eventually arrived at a place called [pause] up in Lithuania [pause] Sally, what was the name of it?
Other: I weren’t there grandad.
LM: Anyrate, it was not, not all that far away from, now when you get to my age that happens you know. You lose your train of thought a little bit don’t you?
DK: I do now [laughs]
Other: Yes. So do I [laughs]
LM: But no, I —
DK: So it was a camp in Lithuania.
LM: Stalag Luft, no, Stalag Luft 6.
DK: Stalag Luft 6. Right.
LM: Up in Lithuania.
DK: Right.
LM: That’s right.
DK: Ok. Ok.
LM: Anyway, with the name Twy, I think it was [Twycross] or something like that. We were the furthest north of any camp.
DK: I was going to say that’s someway east isn’t it you were?
LM: Yeah. We were right up near the Russians.
DK: Russians. Yeah.
LM: Because it was a bit [pause] Dixey Dean. A great footballer wasn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
LM: He was our camp leader.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Yeah. Dixie Dean.
DK: Did you get to know him well?
LM: No. No.
DK: No.
LM: Oh no. Didn’t. Well, I knew him.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But he didn’t converse with very [pause] He could speak fluent German.
DK: Right.
LM: Been a prisoner of war for a long while and he used to go to Sagan the officer’s camp and converse with the Germans there on the conditions of camp and all that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because he knew the Geneva Convention backwards.
DK: Oh right.
LM: And when we could, 19th June 1944 when, the Second Front —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Now, they knew that in the camp but no one said.
DK: So, it was a decoy then.
LM: They wouldn’t let us know.
DK: No. Right.
LM: They knew that Dean and his escape, whatever they were radio, they’d got a radio because they used to come around and give us the news each night. Someone would come around and just and sometimes a German would do that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The old goon would.
DK: So how big was the camp there? How many prisoners were there roughly.
LM: I don’t know but I’d hazard a guess. In our camp compound alone there would be one, two, three, four, five, six, sixteen, six, eight. Oh, three or four hundred if not more.
DK: Right.
LM: Yes. They were all officers. All NCOs.
DK: NCOs. Yeah.
LM: And then —
DK: And what were you in? Were you in sort of cabins or Nissen huts or —
LM: One long, one long hut.
DK: One long hut.
LM: There were bunks.
DK: Right.
LM: And if the weather was nice and we were going on parade and roll call then some of the lads would play up and they would nip up or make a count wrong. We reckoned they could only, they could only count in fives the Germans. So we said they could only count in their fives and the lads would play up a bit. But if it was raining.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We used to put a head out the end of the pit and they would come along and count you and we behaved ourselves then.
DK: Right.
LM: But there was a case where we came, we could, later on it must have been getting towards August we could hear the Russians from where we were.
DK: Right.
LM: The tales we heard about what happened to the Russian guards and the German guards when they got taken by the opposite side.
DK: Yeah.
LM: They didn’t take prisoners.
DK: No.
LM: They didn’t take either side. They didn’t touch the prisoners but the guards they shot them. So there was no love lost between them.
DK: No. So —
LM: Well eventually, yeah —
DK: As I say could you briefly describe what the camp looked like? Presumably you’d got barbed wire as a —
LM: Yeah.
DK: Watch towers and —
LM: Yeah. You had the old, I’ve got a couple of paintings upstairs that a fella had done in the prison camp.
DK: Right. Right. So it’s a compound thing.
LM: It was a big, what it amounted to was, was a big area.
DK: Right.
LM: And your huts one, two, three, four. Long huts. About must have been more than twenty yards I suppose all tiered both sides. You had an odd table in the middle and around the outside of that was your walking area.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Always had that. Then you had a warning wire. They called it a warning wire. That was just a little board that ran along. You mustn’t put your foot over that otherwise they would shoot you.
DK: Yeah.
LM: If you put your foot over the warning wire. Then you had your barbed wire.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And then the goons were up in their —
LM: In towers.
LM: Towers.
DK: And you were just watched the whole time.
LM: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, what, what did you do to pass the time because days must have —
LM: Walk around the, we weren’t allowed to go out. Now, early on they were allowed to go out as working parties but there were so many RAF tried to escape.
DK: Right.
LM: Escape. And they stopped it. We weren’t allowed outside the camp. Once you were in there you didn’t come out until they wanted to move you which they did us. From the Russians you see.
DK: Right.
LM: And no, we weren’t allowed outside the camp.
DK: And —
LM: It was —
DK: And with the restraints there would have been were you treated well then? Or treated [unclear]
LM: In the camp there was no hard [pause] no. But I don’t think I would say I was treated badly. We went over there to kill them but to me we were treated fairly. Geneva Convention. They abided by that.
DK: And what was the food you got then?
LM: Well, that, now that’s sauerkraut.
DK: Right.
LM: And there was an American parcel and an English parcel. Now, the English parcels, well obviously England was struggling to even feed their own people, weren’t they? So they weren’t the serviceability of the package wasn’t very good because we would get in the British parcel or English parcel we would get condensed milk.
DK: Right.
LM: Well, that weren’t, that wouldn’t keep. But the American parcels were in a nice cardboard box and we’d get oh quite a little bit of chocolate etcetera etcetera and you know different things in there.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And used to tide us over. You’d only get a parcel between perhaps four or five or six or seven of you.
DK: And are these parcels that have gone through the Red Cross then?
LM: Yeah.
DK: So they were done, made up in Britain or America by the International Red Cross.
LM: They were already sent. Yeah.
DK: Somehow —
LM: They were the Red Cross. Yeah.
DK: Right.
LM: But they used to puncture them before they came. They couldn’t empty them but they could puncture the tins before they came in.
DK: Right.
LM: And this went on until when we, we knew the Russians weren’t far away. We could hear gunfire in the distance and we were told this and that, this and that. And then eventually they said we would have, they were going to move us out of the camp to another camp. So we deserved what we got in a way because there used to be what they called in the American parcel it was called klim. It was a lovely powdered milk. It was milk spelled backwards.
DK: Oh right. Yes.
LM: See. That was called klim. Milk spelled backwards.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We had, when you said did they treat us alright we weren’t badly treated as such at all but the food weren’t, it was a bit sparce. I mean we got a loaf of bread and that was black bread between seven.
DK: Right.
LM: And no argument as one would cut it up in seven pieces and you just had a slither of a loaf. No argument at all about how big yours was and how small it was or whatever.
DK: I suppose you had to get on with your fellow prisoners then.
LM: Oh yes. Yes. Because you could soon lose your old temper. I’ve seen that happen but not not very often. Not very often because when well I suppose in a way we were very, everybody was an individual in their way because we weren’t like the Army as such. We didn’t mix like the Army did because you were a crew on a crew.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You just kept your crew. You had somebody look after you when you went in for your meals and so forth in the sergeant’s mess and that sort of thing. But then we had, they told us we were going to evacuate to a port. We had to walk to a port called Memel. That was in the Baltic.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Well, we could hear the Russians firing and so forth and whatever was happening and we decided we couldn’t take all this stuff with us because we’d got quite, as we came out of the camp they were crafty in a way because before we came out of the camp we thought well we’ll not, we won’t leave anything. What people can eat or do so we had Oleo margarine and they were tins about that big. Quite a lot we had of that. And we stood them up and we were throwing these tins at each other. Had the bloody tins stood up. And there was also this klim milk. Now that was really you mixed that up and it would make, you could make a real nice cream of it.
DK: Right.
LM: So we thought we’re not leaving that. So what we’d done I don’t know whether you’d call it carbolic soap. What they used to call Sunlight? You know the old, what they used to wash.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The old ladies used to wash with. We grated that up. We put that in with the milk and we left it there and I reckon the Germans must have, they must have tried that and instead of them getting a nice cream there was this powdered milk. This powdered milk all mixed in with the little grated —
DK: Just soap.
LM: We even powdered up.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Just like the milk so they really couldn’t say look at it and think I ain’t very keen on this. So I, we did pay for it later on. And anyway they marched us to this port called, it was Memel and had to go down in a coal ship. We had to go down this hatch and you left all your, whatever equipment you’d got you had to leave that on the deck.
DK: Yeah.
LM: So we said, ‘We’re not going down there. Not going down a bloody hole in a ship and go through the Baltic.’ They said, ‘If you don’t go down we’ll put the hoses on you.’ And they threatened to hose us with the, they’d got these hoses on deck and so forth so we did actually go down in to the hold of the ship. But there weren’t room to sit. Not to lay down especially. You could just squat.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The trouble was that some of the lads all they had to escape was a ladder, a vertical ladder to this little sort of porthole and some of the lads got a bit of diarrhoea as well because it wasn’t long before the food sort of affected people.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And if they wanted to go to the toilet which a lot did. They couldn’t stomach, some people couldn’t stomach this sauerkraut and things like that so they did have to go to the toilet pretty regular. I was one of the opposite. Absolutely. And anyway, we went to go down in to the ship and away we go and they had what they called the old [unclear] and that was for the mines.
DK: Right.
LM: To ships against mines. We’d already mined that with, with these acoustic they were quite a huge mine. About, they’d be about fifteen foot long.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Twelve, thirteen, fifteen long what we used to drop and that was a bit of a risk because you had to —
DK: So you would actually drop mines in to the Baltic.
LM: Yes. Yeah.
DK: And were now —
LM: I hadn’t dropped them in to the Baltic but I had elsewhere.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The RAF had.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And they would [pause] they would, that was a bit of a hazardous old job because you had to come down almost to zero feet. You cut your, you dropped your flaps just to sort of give you a bit of buoyancy and you cut your speed down as low as possible. Just above stalling speed. You’d be down to perhaps a hundred and twenty mile an hour and only about two or three hundred feet high.
DK: Yeah.
LM: So if you were lucky you didn’t go over a flak ship but if you did then they could just blow you to smithereens. So that was, people used to say that used to count as a half an op.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But it alright maybe it weren’t because you used to go there, come back and never see a thing.
DK: But you were still on an operation.
LM: You were lucky, you were lucky if you to just get by and —
DK: Yeah.
LM: And never even have anybody fire at you but no, we I suppose the prison camp weren’t too bad and we’d done three seventy odd hours on that boat and you were allowed up on deck one at a time so you could just imagine how long, I don’t know how many I wouldn’t like to say hazard a guess how many were down in the hold of that ship. Hundreds of us. Sitting there. And we came to a place called Swinemünde.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: You’ve heard of Swinemünde have you?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Have you? Nuremburg was laying there. One of their battle cruisers?
DK: Right.
LM: They took us off the ship and we went, had to get in these cattle trucks and the barbed wire was across the centre of the carriage. You had a half a door, half a door where the prisoners could get in. The other half was for the guards to get in.
DK: Right.
LM: And we had to take our shoes off but what have we got and put them through the barbed wire into the side where the guards were. And then the Germans used to pee in them at night if they didn’t want to get out, couldn’t get out. They used to use them as a toilet.
DK: Wonderful.
LM: And while we were there there was a raid on or supposedly. It weren’t really a raid I don’t think because I learned afterwards that was only one plane and they put a smokescreen over the whole docks and the Nuremberg opened fire on that. It was an American plane, broad daylight and the cattle trucks you could see daylight appear between the wood. Those guns exploding, the vibration we weren’t all that far away from Nuremberg itself.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And so anyway that’s when they took us out from there. They took us across down to a place called [pause] it was quite a way we went. I don’t know the name of the place really. I couldn’t say because they were the same as us. They did block, there were no names on villages or anything like that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We eventually arrived at our destination and I never heard this. I can honestly say I never heard it. Some of the lads who wrote, if you read the book called, “The Last Escape” they said the Germans, they could tell. They could hear them sharpening their swords, their bayonets. But I didn’t hear it. To be truthful I never heard any. Maybe if I’d heard it I wouldn’t have paid much attention to it anyway. So they unloaded us from the trucks and then made us line up in fives and I’d got this kit bag. As luck would have it I’d got my kit bag. When I got off the boat I’d got this kit bag with my name on and I grabbed that and so I carried that with me and whatever stuff you could carry on your own.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You, or somebody sorted out later on and they loaned us, took off, we come, they lined us in fives. The same old thing again and these, all the guards at that particular time that started off were young Naval lads.
DK: Right.
LM: And we reckoned they came off that they were coming from a Naval dockyard just to see. To escort us to this camp Stalag Luft 4B.
DK: Right.
LM: Not far from Stettin. Well, everybody had got their kit and I stood like that and with the kit bag down the front and this German lad came along and I’ve still got a wound, a star there I think. One of them, he stuck a bayonet in you see. He said, ‘Pick it up. Pick it up.’ So I looked at him and that’s where he stuck the bayonet. As luck would have it it went in to my finger and it came up against my belt. An old hessian sort of RAF belt. Oh. And they had to pick it up and hold it there while we were just waiting. Then they they all —
DK: Your hand’s bleeding presumably at this point.
LM: Very little.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Hardly any blood.
DK: Right.
LM: I reckon it just went right to the bone.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Quite painful. I’ve got a little scar there now which, which you can see some left me a little bit of a scar there. They’re still there today. And they started, we had to march off and it weren’t a march at all. We had to run. Well just imagine they started on the lads up the front and while they carried their kit they kept —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Jabbing. Jabbing. Jabbing, and one lad had over seventy bayonet wounds we counted on him when we got the other end and until they’d dropped their kit they kept sticking the bayonet in and so of course we being quite tail enders we were, it was like steeple chase. And then of course then they got on to us and we, when we started off we’d some little bits and odds and pieces what we’d accumulated.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Picked up here and there. When we got to the camp we’d got absolutely nothing. I’d got a shirt on, trousers, shoes and that was my lot.
DK: And everything else had been lost up the road.
LM: Everything we had to drop.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And they had machine guns all lined up beside this sort of, more or less an old cart track we had to run up and some bright erb at the back was firing a rifle or a, I believe it was the officer with a, with a revolver and we never stopped. Nobody stopped to find out who it was. We just had to run and we actually thought not combined but individually I think ninety nine percent of us thought we would run into a hole. A pit. We did. I did. I thought we was going to be shot because they’d already done that. That had already happened to prisoners. They’d took them and shot them and we again we thought this is what was happening. No one said that to each other. Never said it to each other but afterwards when we got to camp people said, ‘Christ,’ he said, ‘Well, I began to think that’s what was happening.’
DK: Yeah.
LM: And people did but they never spread it because no way would there have been any escape because they’d got machine guns lined up each side of this old dirt track and when we got to the other end I mean that was just, we were just covered in dust. It was in August so it was the middle of the summer.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And there was a fella who used to sleep right next door to me. His name was [Mcilwain]. I’ll never forget him. Well, in, while we were in the camp there was a little Pole and he was watching the Americans at the game of baseball when it was, we played it with a softball. And he was stood around here like that and one of the lads had a whack at the ball and it threw out and it hit him in the teeth and knocked his teeth out. He was a little Pole. Quite a small lad. And when we got the other end of the camp I was with [McIlwain] and [McIlwain] got hit with a rifle butt. And when we got, when we eventually got to the camp this little Pole said, ‘Cor,’ he said, ‘I was knackered.’ The language you used to pick up there. ‘I was knackered,’ he said. ‘But when I saw [McIlwain] get hit with a rifle butt,’ he said, ‘He just went like that and carried on he said, ‘I could have run on for miles.’ So, I mean there was a lot of, there was a lot of —
DK: Humour.
LM: Fun.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I mean, it was a place where you could see the funny side of it but not when, it wasn’t all that funny but later on when you look back.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And anyway, we were at that camp and then we stopped there until February 1945 and then —
DK: How were you treated in the second camp once you got there?
LM: Not badly. Not badly. All our huts were off the ground there. They were better huts.
DK: Right.
LM: And you went up a corridor in the middle and your rooms were off each side. Two, four. Two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen. Sixteen in a hut.
DK: Right.
LM: Two there. Two here on each side of the door and they had a tortoise stove and David [Dewlis?] was on the bunk above me and I slept in the bottom one and the lad on the next bunk to me was a New Zealander.
DK: Yeah.
LM: A lovely lad. Long Tom we called him. He was Long Tom. He was about six foot three and he used to sing the Maori’s farewell and a little tear would run down his cheek. Oh yeah. He decided that, he didn’t make a habit of singing it but every now he would sing that little old song. I know the words to that right off. Oh yeah.
DK: I’m quite conscious we’ve been talking for an hour. Do you want to take a break or something.?
LM: I don’t mind. Yes. Yeah. Lovely.
DK: Yeah. Shall we just stop there for a moment?
Other: Yeah. That’s fine.
DK: It’s just I’m rather conscious.
[recording paused]
LM: Fine. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely.
DK: Ok. So I’ll put that back there again. So just to be — talking about the cold weather and the movements.
Other: Yeah.
DK: And prisoners. So just to recap then it’s, it’s February 1945 and you’re in the second —
LM: ’45. Yeah.
DK: And you’re in the second camp and they’re not treating you too badly. What’s happened then?
LM: January. February. They said that due to unforeseen circumstances, they didn’t say why, or why or not, or not we’d got to go. We’d got to move out of the camp and they were going to march us out of the camp. I think we were then what was there, there was somebody else interfering or something was happening and we had to move camp. That was up near Stettin we were and we could see vapour trails. While we were there vapour trails used to go up and we thought they were taking the weather. Apparently, what we were watching was the V-1s and V-2s take off.
DK: Right.
LM: Didn’t know that at the time but going back a little bit I remember a JU88 was fitted with jet engines before ours.
DK: Right.
LM: They had a jet engine fitted to a JU88. No. Yeah 88 not the 87. That was a Stuka.
DK: Right. Yeah.
LM: But the, the eighty eight, yeah. And we weren’t —
DK: You saw one of those fly by then did you?
LM: You could hear them.
DK: Hear them. Right. Yeah.
LM: And see.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You could see them when they came over and you would think that sounds unusual for an aircraft engine and —
DK: Yeah.
LM: And they must have developed that before we did because that was the Germans who brought on the atomic bomb wasn’t it? For the Americans.
DK: Yes.
LM: Their scientists.
DK: Yeah. And the rockets to the moon.
LM: Yeah.
DK: Yes. Von Braun.
LM: Yes. Yeah. And no we were told that we had got to move and we said the treatment we’d had we were not going to go out of the camp. Silly thing to say but there we are. We are not going to move. We are going to stay where we are because we got treated so badly to go to that camp we said we wouldn’t go out of this one and the major, he was an old Prussian. When you say Prussian they were the old Germans weren’t they?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And I reckon he was quite an oldish fella. Upright. Real slim, upright. Lovely he was. And he said he would come with us so there would be no ill treatment at all. And we didn’t get ill treated at all. We said we’d come out but the number of people within one or two days had to fall out. Blisters on their feet, had diarrhoea or something like that and my pilot David Josephs, that’s what made me think he was a bit of a politician’s son, he was, David was taken off after a second, I think it was two days he walked with us. After then they had to take him off in the little bandwagon. Whether he went to hospital I don’t know. I never knew. Even when we came home I never knew what had happened to him.
DK: No.
LM: And I kept in touch with him. Oh yeah. We kept in touch. And but at, he was, walked for an hour and we’d have a rest but when you get up again your feet began to tell on you. But that didn’t make no difference to me I’d been so used to talking over rough ground and so forth that didn’t come hard.
DK: Right.
LM: But people used to say, ‘How did you get on with monotonous walking?’ I said, ‘Yeah. What you do, all you do was just look at the persons feet in front.’ And that was just, it was just a tag along behind each other.
DK: Did you know roughly how many people were in this column as you remember?
LM: Oh, I haven’t a [pause] The whole camp.
DK: So —
LM: And there was not just us.
DK: Right.
LM: There were lots of others as well.
DK: So it could be thousands or —
LM: Oh yes. Walking through Germany what they said one morning we got was if you get attacked which there was. I didn’t see any of it to be truthful but some of them were attacked by Typhoons flown by New Zealanders and the idea was half of you would dash. We used to walk through tracks usually. Never, if you went through a village that was occasionally and the funny thing when we went through a village we used to stand up, pull ourselves up and sing and march. And the Germans didn’t like that and the guards didn’t like it either. And then after you got through the village it was like this, sort of striding along but when you walked through a village you put your parts on and started singing. But there was some got shot up.
DK: Did the villagers react to that at all?
LM: They left, the would leave water out but we weren’t allowed to touch it.
DK: Right.
LM: Because there was so much change of water. I don’t think it would have affected me at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because I’d even later on I even drank out of a blasted river and so I don’t but other people it upset very quickly.
DK: Yeah.
LM: People were suffering with diarrhoea and that sort of thing and anyway we started off and a lot fell out. A lot fell out with diarrhoea, bad feet and that sort of thing. And we would have what they called after eight days you’d have a rest.
DK: What happened to those who did fall out and couldn’t —
LM: Took them back to somewhere. Hospital or something like that to give them a bit of treatment I think.
DK: Right.
LM: I couldn’t say. I don’t know what happened to them.
DK: Ok.
LM: I think, well they got back because David he got back.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we used to write to each other just at Christmas time.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And —
DK: So how long were you on this march for? How many days roughly?
LM: February [pause] And I actually wrote a letter home. Air mail home to my mother on April the 29th. So we were walking from more or less I think somewhere in the middle of February.
DK: To the end of the war basically.
LM: Yeah. February. March.
DK: April.
LM: April. The end of April. But I had, we at the end of the march we had to during the march we could barter sometimes with the farmer. And I had a lovely Van Heusen shirt which had been sent to me by somebody so I swapped this shirt for a kilo of fat pork. Well, we had been walking across Germany with [unclear] and a biscuit perhaps a day. So you can tell what our stomachs were like. They weren’t very lined at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: They weren’t lined at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I swapped that. I said to Tom and, two of us. Long Tom and Leftie and we’ll fry it down. We’ll cut it into like chips and we’ll fry it down because to eat it as raw meat you couldn’t do that so that’s what we thought we would do. We stuck it in an old klim tin.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Lit a little fire and that night we were in this barn and the old rats would run over you and we got lousy as well. Oh, crikey yeah. And they were, they were big lice as well and we went and curled up and went to sleep. Made a sleeping bag and I used to tuck that right under your head so that no rats or anything could get in with you. And they used to run over you but you used to sort of knock them off.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And squeak and go off ahead and that night we went and [laughs] in the barn and I heard Tom, Long Tom up he got, out he went. The next thing Leftie the other side of me he was gone. And do you know I feel sick. Sick as a [pause] I feel. I’m not being sick I’m not going to. I didn’t buy that stuff to be sick. No way. And I wouldn’t go out. I laid there and I would not be sick. And I thought I’ll imagine I’m drinking a cup of cocoa and I was drinking this cup of cocoa and in the bottom of it was these chips. So it was, it was so awful that had [pause] we had lost all the lining off our stomachs. You passed blood. You would actually pass blood.
DK: So over these weeks then did you have the same German guards or were they changed?
LM: The Germans. Oh, you never knew who was with you.
DK: Right.
LM: Yeah. Some, they didn’t walk all the way with us —
DK: I was going to say —
LM: We would have different guards.
DK: You wouldn’t have different guards all the time then.
LM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
LM: They were all old. Usually the old ones.
DK: Right.
LM: The old Luftwaffe as well.
DK: Right.
LM: And we walked. There was, I think there was something like, yeah, something about four hundred miles we’d done or something similar to that and then they were going to take us back towards the Russians. We’d just come over the River Elbe and I said to my two mates, Long Tom and Leftie, I said, ‘I’m not going back over that blasted river.’ They said, ‘Well, you know, I don’t fancy going back to the bloody Russians the other side.’ So we had said if we see a chance we’ll make a run for it. Well, we were going through this. We always walked through woods, lots of woods off the main track and so forth so we got a gap. ‘Ok, Tom.’ Off we, we ran off. Off we went. Mind you the guards I don’t think they were shooting at us. Never hit us anyway. They was a few shots going off but we carried on running and we came to a river. A little river. It was about as wide as this room and mind you this was time, that was in March time so a bit cold. So we thought if we cross the river, we were playing games I suppose, if we cross the river the dogs won’t be able to pick us up.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But the river was running quite, quite fast and there was little saplings been cut down beside the river so I picked one of these up and I gave it to Leftie and Leftie went across and held this stick you see and chucked one in the water, walked across sideway. So I went across and I held this stick for Tom to hold on to a branch and then come across this what we’d laid in the river. And there was a shot rang out and Tom lost his balance and he went backwards in the river. Got all his clothes on so he got out obviously and we made our way as we thought we had heard of [Saltau?] and that was where the Americans were.
DK: Right.
LM: We thought if we get to the Americans we’d be alright. Well, we got to the edge of a, it was a sort of a spinney we went through and then we came to the finish of the woods was that were open fields. So we stopped there and we decided we’d sort of camouflage ourselves. We’d put a bit of stick in. I had a, I had a German type Africa Corps hat which was a mistake I found out later but [pause] So we put this hat on and I’d got that and somebody knitted it somewhere along the line and we waited until it had got slightly dusk and then we decided we would come out of this little old wood and make our way as we thought towards Saltau. We just came out and we could hardly believe it. We turned left. I can see it even now. Turned, came out of this little wood. We turned left and walked along and we went, ‘Bloody hell.’ There was three blokes laid in the ditch. A little ditch. It wasn’t a ditch as such it was just a dry ditch. Say it that way.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Three Americans err three Australians. Three Australians laid in that ditch just been shot down and they had got escape equipment and everything. But they were also full of beans. Eggs and bacon. So just imagine us three weighing about seven stone and they had just, we’d just walked across Germany. Four or five hundred miles across there and they had just been shot down full of beans. And we walked at night and potato fields, it didn’t matter what was in the way we just walked according to the compass. And I remember particularly we came to a fence of barbed wire. A bit silly. We climbed over the fence of barbed wire. We had to walk across and all of a sudden we started to go in and in and in. Our feet began to get rather mud wet. They come up and I said to the others, I said, ‘Run. For Christ’s sake, run.’ And we ran and we ran through a bloody bog. We didn’t realise how silly we were and we came to another barbed wire, another fence and climbed over that. That was to take the animals out.
DK: Oh. Ok.
LM: That’s what we reckoned.
DK: Yeah.
LM: To keep the animals out of this.
DK: Bog. Yeah.
LM: This bog. We got the other end we took our shoes and socks off and wrang our socks out and they were full of this sort of mud. And anyway we carried on and we used to stop for about have a sort of an hour and then sat down and you would sweat, sweat, sweat when you were walking. Then you stop for five minutes. Ten minutes you’d freeze. Really we were so weak I suppose that, of course the Australians weren’t weak they weren’t weak were they?
DK: I was going to say they were —
LM: They were, oh they were fit as fiddles.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Oh yeah and anyway we, we dodged here, dodged there and carried on and eventually we came up and we heard people in the foreground as we were going in front of us. They were German troops. Walked right into them. So I reckon he was a middle of the range officer and of course they caught us and we had to go over and he looked at us and I reckon he thought what a shower and he gave us some little tablets or sweet or whatever you’d like to call them. They were about an inch long and about a half inch wide and like the old throat lozenge.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Remember the throat one?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Well, these were white. I reckon they were vitamin tablets. He handed them out to us and he got the corporal to walk back with us to a little village called Bispingen. And we came back to this little village and that’s where he left us. In a hotel.
DK: Right.
LM: We were put up in this hotel and that night we went out. All six of us went out. We was talking to the German people which was no man’s land then you see.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we were saying to the woman there, one woman Tom was talking to, he could speak fairly good German and about Saltau, she said, ‘oh,’ this is the honest truth this is, ‘Don’t go. Don’t go to Saltau. The Americans are there,’ she said, ‘They shoot anything that moves.’
DK: Yeah. They still do.
LM: That was a yarn but she said that’s what the Germans said.
DK: Yeah.
LM: She said, ‘Don’t. I wouldn’t go to Saltau.’ So we, we stayed there. Lovely hotel. We weren’t allowed to go upstairs.
DK: So —
LM: We had to sleep downstairs.
DK: So you were put up in a hotel by the Germans.
LM: Yeah. Yeah. They left us there. They didn’t want us. We were, we were a menace.
DK: Do you think the Germans at this point knew the war was lost and it just wasn’t worth —
LM: Yes. Yes, because another time they might have shot us mightn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
LM: And anyway, we were in no man’s land so they were retreating quite badly. And anyway, one particular day the sun was shining lovely. We set outside this hotel enjoying ourselves and there was a German lorry came around from the little village to where the centre of the village was. Another hotel further up the road. Came around the corner. All of a sudden it stopped and out they got and made a dive for it. Couldn’t make much out of it you see. And then I heard this plane and then looked up. There was one Spitfire. One Spitfire just going along. Of course, we, we were from, they knew us.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I mean they weren’t going to shoot us were they? They knew. There was us sitting on the front of this blasted hotel, ‘Oh yay.’ I thought you, daft sods weren’t we? A Spitfire up there never knew who we, I said to Tom, I said, ‘He could have turned around and shot us, Tom. Couldn’t they?’ But no. They were our friends weren’t they? You could see the funny side of it. Ignorant weren’t we? Plain ignorant.
Other: Yeah.
LM: Didn’t care. Anyway, we sat [laughs] they gave us a bowl of soup each day. They made a bowl of soup and there was pork cut into little old squares but they weren’t, they weren’t really all that nourishing. Weren’t all that good. Anyway, we were very pleased with it. And then a young lad came down to us. He said, ‘A Panzer. Panzer. A British Panzer.’ So lovely. Away we go. We ran up and around the corner and thought double double. There was a bloke on a half track or one of these little Bren carriers it was.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: We had to double up to them. Didn’t know who we were you see because I’d got this blasted African Corps hat on and so, anyway we had to run up to them and he stood there and when he realised who we were and then of course they gave us cigarettes and so forth. But they then put us in the hotel right at the top of the street where we ran to when they was coming in to the village. So the next morning I wrote a letter. One of the Army lads gave me an air mail to write home and that was how I remember the 29th of April when I first wrote home to my mother to say that I was ok. And the next morning they said, ‘Right. The truck will, you get in the truck it will stop twice. The second time it stops you get out and you will go back to the [echelon].’ That’s the depot isn’t it.’
DK: Yeah.
LM: So Long Tom, Leftie and myself. We got in one truck and the three Aussies got in another. So we’re, off we go. Off we go. Funny. Eventually we stopped. The Army lads said, ‘What are you doing here?’ Well, we said, ‘You’ve got to stop twice and we’re going back to the [echelon].’ He said, ‘We weren’t stopping,’ he said, ‘You should have been in the other truck.’ So there’s us three.
DK: Oh no.
LM: We’re on patrol with the blasted Army. They gave me a rifle and put me on a half-track and I thought they said the war was over for us. It doesn’t look much like it. We’re going along the road and they’re firing at bloody copse over the other side. A little old copse there.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I suppose Germans are in. They was firing. These people was firing at something. The lads up the front. So here we carried on. We went, we had a stop at this little village and we weren’t very nice. The Army weren’t very nice.
DK: Do you want me to stop?
LM: Can you turn —? Yeah.
[recording paused]
LM: Yes.
Other: Yeah.
LM: Yes.
DK: Right. So I’ve got it switched back on again. So there we go. We’ll move that there. So you’re now with the British Army.
LM: Yeah.
DK: What’s happened next then?
LM: Well, while we were with them on their, on patrol we got an old vehicle. A little old sort of a Austin 7.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
LM: In one of these villages and Tom said he could drive you see and we got this thing started. It started up and we were driving around the village in this little motor and we called and went in the shop. It was a baker’s shop. They sold everything I suppose not just bread, they had cakes and everything in there and they couldn’t wait to give us stuff. We weren’t in uniform as such. I mean not really. We were, we were looked like bedraggled bloody gypsies really. I mean just imagine what we were like. Thin as rakes.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we went in a shop and the German women said, ‘Your bread.’ And the bread we had, the old black bread that weren’t nice at all. That had got a thick layer of Greece on the bottom. But when we, they gave us a loaf of brown bread that was like cake. It was just like cake to eat. Their brown bread. Ordinary brown bread after eating black bread and but anyway we, eventually we got back. They dropped us off and two days we were there on patrol and then they took us back. We got back to the [echelon] and had to go through a de-louser.
DK: Yeah.
LM: DDT. Take all your clothes off. Shave because that’s where the lice grow on and when I came for a medical well first of all they were spraying DDT out of a hose from a container with no masks on. I mean that stuff now. That hangs in people’s bodies. You can’t get rid of it can you?
DK: Yeah. It’s banned, isn’t it?
LM: DDT.
DK: Yeah. It’s banned.
LM: And they were just spraying this all over you, under your arms, everywhere. And I wonder how many people got affected with that. The Army lads were doing it.
DK: It’s carcinogenic. It can cause cancers.
LM: They did all the spraying. Awful stuff.
DK: So its banned now.
LM: But anyway, we had to shave yourself and and the doctor said to me, he said, ‘Ahh,’ he said, ‘Impetigo.’ I said, ‘I don’t think so sir.’ He said, ‘Yes, that’s what I —’ I said, ‘ I don’t think so.’ I said, ‘It’s lice.’ I said, ‘That’s where I’ve scratched myself.’ ‘No. No. No. No.’ So he gave me one of those blue bottles. Years ago you used to get these bottles of blue weren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
LM: From your medical —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Perhaps you don’t remember. You’re not old enough to know that. They were poisonous stuff sort of business. And you’d get them an old blue bottle about that tall. I never used it. I come home and just washed myself. It went. It wasn’t impetigo at all. It looked like it I suppose because —
DK: Scratching.
LM: And you could, the lice was nearly as big as my little nail. They were huge. Just think of them crawling over yourself.
Other: Oh, I feel sick now.
LM: We never had any in the camp though. It weren’t ‘til we came out on the march until we got lousy. There was no lice in the camp whatsoever.
DK: So how did you get back to the UK then?
LM: I came back. We were taken to [Machelen] Airfield.
DK: Right.
LM: Picked up by, they kitted us out with Army clothes then.
DK: Right.
LM: Took all our old, took our old rubbish away and gave us a new Army uniform sort of business and I was picked up on a, I can’t tell you where, I’ve no idea where we actually got to. The airfield we flew from in a Dakota.
DK: Right.
LM: And I sat in this Dakota and there was a lad came up in the, on the aircraft. He said, ‘Have you flown before?’ I looked. I said, ‘Yes. Yeah. Yeah.’ He said, ‘Oh that’s alright,’ he said, ‘We just wondered if you had never flown before.’ I never said nothing. I thought no. He don’t know any different does he like.
DK: No. I suppose some of the Army POWs may not have flown because they would have been shipped out of there.
LM: That’s right.
DK: Captured. And that was the first time they flew.
Other: Yeah.
LM: Of course, there were lots of them. I mean we had lads we called them the Wizards of Oz. There was three of them. I don’t know how they came in our hut but I reckon they swapped over with some RAF lads.
DK: Right.
LM: That’s how we always reckoned they were, they kept themselves to themselves but we reckoned, we used to call them the Wizards of Oz. there was three of them. They never give any, never said nothing you know didn’t talk much. They were Army boys really and they swapped I reckon.
Other: Oh.
LM: With three RAF lads.
DK: So did, do you think you were flown back from somewhere in Germany?
LM: Yes. Yeah.
DK: So you were in Germany.
LM: Yes
DK: So can you remember where you arrived back in the UK?
LM: Yes. Brize. Not Brize Norton. Cosford.
DK: Cosford. Right. Ok.
LM: Cosford. Yeah. Came back to Cosford. I think it was Cosford we came back. If it weren’t Cosford we landed at that’s where we got rekitted.
DK: Right.
LM: At Cosford. What was the other one where they brought all the, repatriated all these prisoners a little while ago?
DK: Oh Lyneham.
LM: No. No. No. Down that same place.
DK: There’s Brize Norton.
LM: Brize Norton.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Not Brize Norton. Was it Brize Norton?
DK: Yeah. There’s Lyneham and then Brize Norton and —
LM: Lyneham was another one.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: I think it was Cosford I came back to.
DK: Right. Ok.
LM: And they sent us on leave for six weeks. All they gave me was four for some reason. They only gave me a pass for four weeks. I didn’t mind. I didn’t, I weren’t bothered all that much.
DK: Was there any sort of debriefing about your time as a POW? Did they ask you any questions?
LM: Yes. When we came home they, we had to go and stand in front of a board.
DK: Right.
LM: And they did, just weren’t all that interested I don’t think. I don’t think they didn’t seem to worry much. I mean, we, I don’t think they were enquiring about names or anything like that. They just, well, to be honest I don’t think they didn’t give a shite about us.
DK: No.
LM: They couldn’t wait to get us home and get us on leave it seemed to me and of course I don’t think they wanted us in the RAF all that long or whether they did or not I don’t know. We were probably getting paid too much and anyway when we came home you had the chance to remuster. I volunteered. Like a bit of a silly bugger I volunteered to go out to Japan.
LM: Right.
That’s why. I said I’d fly, I said I’d love to go and fly out to Japan now and fight out there. I thought what a bloody a dickhead wasn’t I?
Other: You didn’t know did you?
LM: What. No, he said, ‘No. We wouldn’t let you to do that again.’ They said no. Wouldn’t be allowed to do that. And anyway, I took a course on, back to Morse Code.
DK: Right.
LM: I was going to do that sort of thing and I thought oh no. This isn’t for me and actually I couldn’t concentrate at all. I couldn’t concentrate. My concentration was just gone so I remustered then to a teleprinting course and we used to send, write letters home. How quickly you can pick up a typewriter.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And you had an old metronome on the desk in front of you.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You had your big blackboard. You know I expect. And no numbers or letters on the keyboard. You had to feel them. Always work from the middle bar. And, ‘Oh, shit I’ll never do this.’ But how quickly —
Other: Where is your typewriter?
LM: Huh?
Other: What happened to your typewriter, grandad?
LM: Don’t mention about my typewriter what I bought and my [pause] they gave my typewriter away.
DK: Shall we turn this off again? [laughs]
LM: They couldn’t wait. I paid forty five pounds. No. sorry. Not quite that. I thought I’ll go upstairs the other night. I thought I’ll go up. I’ll do a bit of, I’ll get my old typewriter out of the spare room because my right hand isn’t very good now. I had a bit of a stroke but I had that. That was like what they called deprivisation.
DK: Right.
LM: And I get a little pension for that. But I was ages before I got it. Nobody came. I went in A1 obviously. I came out a down B2. Never said nothing about giving me a pension though. Not a thing. Couldn’t give a damn.
DK: Well presumably, well you clearly weren’t in the best of health when you came back.
LM: No. No.
DK: But was there any medical care that you received or —
LM: No. No. I went. No. No one bothered.
DK: No.
LM: No. No. No. If you went sick you went sick. If you didn’t you didn’t. Simple as that and I just —
Other: [unclear] ever since.
LM: I took the, then I thought this seemed good to me I said what I’ll do because they didn’t mind you remustering. They knew what state we were in I suppose.
DK: Yeah.
LM: For we weren’t in the best of mental state I don’t think then. We’d got so lax and not having to do anything. Sort of just walk around a bloody compound and I mean I weren’t too bad I was only thirteen months but some of them four or five years and I took a driver’s test and I came out the, out in Blackpool and the School of Motoring. The initials —
DK: Oh, the British School of Motoring [[ yeah.
LM: Up near Blackpool. Weeton.
DK: Right.
LM: In Blackpool. And the corporal said, another lad in the back, they were Austin 7, 10s like, he said. Went out the back around these you could see the hills in front of you in the distance, sort of the wasteland at the back of Blackpool. We got away to the front, still a bit of waste ground. He said, ‘Now, I want you to get to the top of that hill in top gear.’ And there was a gateway down there. I put my foot right down and went up that hill like a bomb. Yeah. No trouble. We got pulled up and loaded on and the boy in the back he said, ‘You scared the life out of me.’ I said, ‘Why?’ he said, ‘Well you nearly hit that gate post.’ I said ‘[unclear] Through there. I said, ‘He said, the corporal said to me he wanted me to get to the top of the hill in top gear.’ He wanted me to stall it you see, didn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
LM: Wanted me to start off on a hill but I didn’t. I foot rode up this blasted hill.
DK: So, what year did you actually leave the RAF then?
LM: I had two ranks.
DK: Right.
LM: Warrant officer air gunner and an AC2 driver.
DK: So you left as an AC2.
LM: Yes [laughs] Yes, I don’t, but I passed. I could drive anything when I came out.
DK: And what year was that that you came out then?
LM: 1946.
DK: Right.
LM: Came out in ’46 and started work in, my leave was up on the 6th of September 1946 and I started work on the 6th. On a Tuesday.
DK: Doing what? What was your career after that then? What did you do?
LM: Well, I thought I really loved to work on the land.
DK: Machelen Right.
LM: I loved the horses.
DK: So did you?
LM: Especially.
DK: Did you go back to —
LM: No. There wasn’t no money in it then was there?
DK: Right.
LM: So, Vic Bale, how I knew, I went to school with him he ran foremen men at Fiddlers Garages at Stowmarket.
DK: Right.
LM: He said to me, he said, ‘Lou,’ he said, ‘Are you —.’ Oh before then I, yeah that’s right. Yes. Yes. He said, ‘Lou, are you looking for a job?’ I said, ‘No. Not really, Vic.’ I said, ‘Not for a while. Just see my leave out and I’ll have a look around,’ I said, ‘There’s plenty of place in Stowmarket.’ He said, ‘Well, my dad you see has just gone as a foreman down at the old chemical works.’ He said, ‘There’s a firm, a Swedish firm going to make boards, building boards from straw.’ So I thought well I knew old Harry, his dad. I knew him well. So I went down. ‘Yes, boy.’ He said, ‘Yes, boy. You can start tomorrow if you like.’ I said, ‘Lovely Harry. I’ll start. Make it Tuesday.’ I said, ‘That’s the end of my leave.’ So I went and that’s where I started and I was the first one to start there. Then there was another lad. He was a Dunkirk lad.
DK: Right.
LM: Frank [Wasp]. He joined the next day. And then another lad he was in the Army he was a PT instructor. He joined on the Friday. So that we three started off at [unclear]
DK: [unclear]
LM: And the bloke who came to show us how to run [unclear] hadn’t a bloody clue. He hadn’t a clue. Not any idea.
DK: So just stepping back a bit have you stayed in touch with any of the, either your crew at the time or those that you escaped with?
LM: Well. No. Never. I’d have loved to. This was what I was saying earlier on. We never kept, the only one, now I had a letter come from some while ago now from the flight engineer.
DK: Right.
LM: When we were shot down. Did I know, he’d got my address from David Joseph’s wife —
DK: Right.
LM: Because David used to write to me. Well, when I say write it was a postcard at Christmas and all we wrote on it, “How are you? Ok? Having a nice time? Cheerio.” And that’s all that was said.
DK: So you stayed in touch with your pilot for a few years.
LM: Only on a —
DK: On a card.
LM: His mother used to write to my mother.
DK: Right.
LM: During the war. During that war and David he, what made me think he was a Joseph, the old Keith Josephs offspring they lived in Shakespeare Country.
DK: Right. Yeah. They must be related.
LM: Then I got —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Then I got a card come from him. “We’ve changed our address. I’ve now bought a farm at Bourton on the Water.” So we were on, me and the wife were on holiday. We called at Bourton on the Water. There’s a river runs through the street there isn’t there?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: A lovely place.
Other: Bourton on the Water.
LM: And I went into a Post Office. I said to the lady I said, Mock Hill, Pockhill Farm it was called. I went into the Post Office. I said, ‘Hello dear.’ I said, ‘You wouldn’t know the whereabouts of a David Josephs who live in Pockhill Farm would you?’ She said, ‘Yeah. They’re just up the road there on the right hand side.’ But he had died then. He’d had a brain haemorrhage.
DK: So you never met him again.
LM: I never met him. No.
DK: I’m rather conscious of time. I’ve just got one final question.
LM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And it’s really about how after all these years you feel about and you look back on your time in the RAF and a POW. How do you feel about that now? Is it something —
LM: I sometimes wish I’d have taken, what I ought to have, I sometimes think why didn’t I get a reserved job on the land? I could have been I don’t know. I wouldn’t have been I don’t know. I wouldn’t have been in a position I finished up with now at anyrate.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I had a good number when I, when I retired. A production manager at [unclear] when I retired so I wouldn’t, I was well looked after. The old governor I think sometimes that was a good thing that I went through that because otherwise I think I would have been on the farm until the day I died.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Or the time I retired. But I didn’t and —
DK: So in a strange way it was —
LM: It altered my life altogether because, yes.
DK: Some good came out of it.
LM: Because I suppose in a way I wouldn’t have gone, well a little example. When I was at school we had one day out in a year. Sunday school.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Had to go to Sunday school every Sunday. Stowupland and Creeting St Peter. I used to live at Creeting St Peter and that we used, they’d come from Stowup and pick us up at Creeting St Peter. Now, I’ve never been out of the village because we used to get to Jacks Green, that’s just nearly into Needham and somebody would ask, ‘Can you see the sea yet?’ That’s how naïve we were. Hadn’t been out of the village. When I went to London that was the first time I’d ever been in London in my life.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I got on the Underground and it didn’t bother me at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: No, I just asked a porter. I wasn’t afraid to ask and mostly the black ones were ever so helpful. Oh yeah.
DK: Better turn this off quick.
LM: Well, they were and in those days —
DK: Yeah. Yeah. No.
LM: I’m sorry Sally but —
Other: No, that’s fine, grandad.
LM: I didn’t say that.
DK: It was actually because we had full employment then that there weren’t enough people to work on the Underground so recruitment was actually done in the West Indies to get people.
LM: Oh right.
DK: To come over and work on the Underground and London Transport. Ok. Well, at that point we’d better stop. Well thanks very much for that.
LM: Yes.
DK: I’m turning this off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Louis Makens
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMakensL170117, PMakensL1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Louis Makens worked as a farm worker before the war but volunteered for aircrew. He discusses his training on Wellingtons and operations flying Stirlings with 196 Squadron including a crash landing, and glider towing. His Halifax was shot down 18/19 March 1944 on the way to Frankfurt. It was his seventh operation, but his first as a mid under gunner with 76 Squadron from RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor. He became a prisoner of war and discusses that as an extra gunner with a new crew, he only got to know his pilot David Joseph during captivity. He describes his capture and treatment and the conditions at Stalag Luft 6, the contents of Red Cross parcels, and the prisoners' attitude to the guards. He describes the conditions on the long march through Germany away from the advancing Russians. Eventually he found the advancing Allied army. After the war, he was remustered as a driver and was demobbed in 1946. He found employment with Stramit manufacturing strawboard building material.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Lithuania
Poland
England--Yorkshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Lithuania--Šilutė
Poland--Świnoujście
Poland--Tychowo
Lithuania--Klaipėda
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-03-18
1945-02
1945-06-19
1946-09-06
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:42:22 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
196 Squadron
76 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
bombing
evading
Fw 190
Halifax
Initial Training Wing
Lysander
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Bridlington
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Sealand
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Stradishall
RAF Witchford
shot down
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
Stirling
strafing
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/226/591.2.mp3
6d2bbd6a840e3c8def43e132e9049dca
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LG: C’erano le persone che si chiamavano dell’UNPA.
[part missing in the original file]
LG: Ecco c’era un corpo di volontari chiamato UNPA, che avevano una fascia così con su questa sigla, adesso non ricordo cosa volesse dire, ad ogni modo facevano come la protezione civile, se per esempio la casa era crollata e c’era bisogno di andare sotto per tirare fuori delle persone, di scavare, di fare delle cose, loro intervenivano. E ogni caseggiato aveva il capofabbricato. Il capofabbricato che aveva il compito, il dovere di far uscire tutti dall’appartamento, no? Certi invece non volevano ‘Io muoio qua nella mia casa, non voglio andarmene, piuttosto che fare la morte del topo voglio morire nel mio appartamento’. Però loro avevano proprio, anche litigando dovevano farli andare fuori, farli andare al rifugio ecco.
[part missing in the original file]
LG: Le porte erano, beh, quando si doveva andare ovviamente si entrava, no? Però di giorno, a me personalmente era capitato, avevano una capacità di tante persone.
Unknown interviewer: Eh quello signora [?].
LG: Più di quel numero non potevano ospitare, per sicurezza, per tante cose, e una volta io e con le mie amiche eravamo, bigiavamo scuola [laughs] eravamo in una fiera sui bastioni di Porta Venezia, e quando è successo, come si chiama, l’allarme, siamo scesi sulla Vittorio Veneto, lei conosce magari, insomma Vittorio Veneto, lì c’era la capienza di quarantatré persone e a noi non c’han fatto entrare, allora abbiamo dovuto attraversare tutta piazza della Repubblica che è una delle poche piazze di Milano grandi, no? Per arrivare dall’altra parte perché noi stavamo a Porta Nuova in quel momento, ormai io ero già via da qua, e dopo poco è successo che hanno mitragliato un uomo che era col cavallo, e hanno ammazzato anche il cavallo, che era col carro che passava dalla piazza, perché l’aereo era venuto giù e, questo era di pomeriggio che è successo. Perché non potevano ospitare tutti quelli che passavano, se c’era un rifugio piccolo limitato, più di quello non poteva.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Luciana Cella Guffanti
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Luciana Cella Guffanti (b. 1932) describes the role played by officers of the Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea during the bombings of Milan, especially when they had to persuade reluctant people to go to the shelters. She describes an occasion when the alarm sounded, and she and her friend were prevented from entering an already overcrowded shelter and had to cross the vast Piazza della Repubblica which was being strafed.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:02:30 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#591.html
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Milan
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
strafing
Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/454/7954/ACabriniL170115.1.mp3
18e25109faaf00af56b8af032caef7ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cabrini, Luigi
Luigi Cabrini
L Cabrini
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Luigi Cabrini who recollects his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Luigi Cabrini
Description
An account of the resource
Luigi Cabrini describes his daily life in a rural community stressing the labour-intensive nature of farming in wartime. Mentions Pippo bombing at night, and reminisces a chequered schooling history in Pavia and Voghera owing to strafing, bombings and disrupted train services. Mentions the difficult coexistence with feared German troops, stressing brutalities and violence. Reminisces giving shelter to one British personnel who became the lover of a farm hand.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:20:47 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACabriniL170115
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
love and romance
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/872/11112/PHodginM1701.2.jpg
1dfe5826fceaee1994844ce580f081c0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/872/11112/AHodginM170810.1.mp3
12a01fdddf3f968172ae5cc483a6d41b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hodgin, Margaret
M Hodgin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Hodgin (b.1932). She lived near RAF Fiskerton during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hodgin, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SB: This is Suzanne Bellhouse interviewing Mrs Margaret Hodgin. We’re at Margaret’s house in Fiskerton, Lincolnshire. Margaret lived very, very closely to RAF Fiskerton during the war years and she’s going to tell us all her about her experiences and, and what she saw.
MH: Right. The first memory of me, of my, of the war time was my father digging a shelter in the garden and we used to be carried down because I was only seven and my brother was four. And we used to be carried down when the air raids came. But they were, we were quite fortunate where I lived for, being bombed. And, and then later on as the time went on they would, when we went to school we, at Reepham School which was the next village we had to go and walk or cycle about two miles and you always had to take your gas mask with you. If you didn’t, you got halfway there and remembered it, ran back home and my mum coming up the road with it. And, you know, and it’s so vivid what I can remember of all these things. And, and then when we were at school if the, if the siren went we would take, we’d no shelters there. We were taken to houses in the village. Everybody, you know my, me and my brother was taken to a house and all the other children and they used to put us under the, cupboard under the stairs and, and that was at school. And well then going on to the war days, you know to the aerodrome being built I can remember that being done. Now, because we was only two small fields away from the, the ‘drome you could hear the Lancasters revving up to be taken off, you see. Take off. And I used to hear them and run upstairs and open my bedroom window because if the wind was, whichever the wind was as it came our way it, they used to be parallel by my bedroom window, and I could see the crew, the pilot with all his gear on and the one next to him. And I used to write down because it was AE. The number of the ‘drome there was AE1 or, and so on and I used to write. I had a book and I used to write them all down. I mean I was about eleven by then when the, when the ‘drome was, was on. And then I used to try and keep awake at home at night to hear how many came back. And they got to know. Some of them used to actually wave to me. The pilot, because they knew because I used to open the window and really look out and wave and all the rest of it. But the thing is it’s so vivid in my mind that, all that. Well, one Sunday afternoon, and in those days you hadn’t, you had to make your own entertainment. Well, I used to read a lot and I was curled up in a chair reading a book and I heard an aeroplane revving and flew upstairs, opened my window and what was it? A German plane. And I was terrified because, you know it had got the sticker on the thing. And I went down, I said to my mum and dad, ‘It’s a German plane gone past.’ My dad wouldn’t believe me. He said, ‘It never was.’ I said, ‘It was.’ And because it had apparently, this is what we were told later it had got into the, into the rear, near ours to take photographs of the aerodrome and it had come down low to do it and it was just taking away again. But as far as we were told it was shot down over Lincoln. Past Lincoln. So, that was the end of it. To see a German plane going past. I mean to a child it was terrifying and that was a frightening experience to me. Anyway, yeah I used to do it all through the war. Listening for these planes. And I tell you I wrote a book. I put a book with it but I think my mum must have lost it because I haven’t got it now. I wish I had but I haven’t. And I, and I used to really be upset when there was any missing when they came back. And that was my experiences with the Lancasters, you know. But to see them right near your house was amazing really. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. Anyway, I think I’d better stop a minute now.
SB: That was brilliant.
[recording paused]
MH: The war to me was as I said at the beginning that my father built a shelter in the garden and down in the ground and all that. But when the ‘drome was built it was, it was compulsory to have an, I think it was called Anderson but I’m not sure if ours wasn’t called something else. And you had to have them in your house, these shelters and they were absolutely made of steel and oh quite big. I can’t imagine. From that doorway to about there’s big. And there were shiny tops of steel and then there were latts all underneath and my mum put beds in for us and they used to, but it was nearly, I mean I was only in a small house. It nearly filled your room but you had to have them.
SB: Yeah.
MH: Because we lived so near the ‘drome. Yeah. You couldn’t say no. Yeah. And then another experience I can remember so vivid was about the evacuees coming. Now, we didn’t have many because [pause] no this was before the ‘drome was built, these evacuees. And there was quite a big house near me, near us and this lady must have been a bit, I don’t know what you’d call her but she wouldn’t. She refused to have anybody and so they brought a girl to us from Leeds or Liverpool. I can’t remember which, which town it was. I know it was from Yorkshire. And she came to stay at our house. And my mum would bake. Had got some plums all washed ready for making jam because you did everything for yourself in the war and she’d never seen a plum or eaten a plum before and she was so excited with these plums. She was, she was ever such a nice girl. But we weren’t, we wasn’t forced to have anybody because there was, we’d three bedrooms and a boy and a girl, you see. So we weren’t. But they came and asked my mum if she’d have this girl because this lady refused but she was made to have her in the end. And she wrote to us for, oh and then when the aerodrome was built they had to go home wherever they were sent to because of the, it was just as dangerous here as where they came from they thought. But anyway she did write to us quite a bit after. Yeah. I remember that. And there was quite a few evacuees about and they all seemed to settle well. And, and that was that experience you know. And I can still see her in my mind. But with these plums, she was so excited about plums. What else was I going to tell you? Oh yeah. About the air raid. The shelter. Yeah. And my mum used to put us down. We used to sleep in there. And one day, oh and my mum used to help in the village hall. They used to do whist drives and dances and it’s only a small village hall. It, well it’s a church hall at Cherry Willingham and we, I used to go with her because she used to light fires, two fires in the, ready for the whist drive. And you used to, used to go and put some more coal on it. It was black you know. Everywhere. There were no lights anywhere. And it used to be so, because you know so dark and I can still remember that. And if you had a cycle you had a lamp on the front but it was all blacked out by about the size of a shilling in those days. I don’t know how they saw. But anyway. So, funny things. Oh, and on a Saturday morning us children used to collect the salvage as we called it from all the houses and put them in a shed and then it was sorted out. I don’t know what, what they did with it but anyway that was our Saturday jobs with wheelbarrows fetching all this salvage and taking it to this shed. And the grown-ups used to sort that out. My dad wasn’t sent for the war because he worked at the forge and it was, they did work for the war you see. I don’t know what they did. I can’t remember. And, and so we were lucky to have my dad at home when everything went and I used to be saying, ‘Don’t let, just tell dad to come in,’ if there was a raid, ‘Don’t let him — ’ and he would stand out listening. The men did. About watching the, you know all the hearing them more likely. The air raids were on, he’d say, ‘Oh, they’re bombing Coventry,’ and all that sort of talk. Yeah. But it’s so you know I think when you’re, it’s your young day you do remember but I think it was more vivid with it being the war that you do remember things so well. And what else is there to tell you? Stop it a minute.
[recording paused]
MH: And one day my dad had been around the Cherry Willingham village. Well, there was only about [pause] I wouldn’t know how many houses. Say two hundred houses in there then. Now, it’s like a small town Cherry Willingham is. And he was, he’d been somewhere. They had a [pause] a place up in the village where the, when the [pause] what do church wardens and all them went to sort the people out. We had a man lived next door to us. He was called Twiddy Espin and he was only a very small man. My dad always said the whistle, he used to blow the whistle all around the village when it, so you knew, or if you were showing any light with your, and my dad always said that the whistle was bigger than he was. And he did look after us though. He used to come all around the village looking if you showed any light. You know, because you had to have blackouts of course. And he was very good really. He was. Nice man. And then my dad was gone up to this place whatever it was. I don’t know what it was about. They used to meet up there. Some of the men in the village. And one day he was coming down the village and he got shot at by a German plane. And one of the, there was a barn from the farm that was in the village and it happened to have the door open and he went in there and so they missed him. Yeah. And that was frightening to think they’d been shot at. Yeah. Because you didn’t know if there were some German planes about. I mean we used to go out playing. And, and I never went out of Cherry Willingham all through the war. Only to school. Because my mum used to go to Lincoln to get your clothes and she would never take us in case there was a, a, you know the sirens went. And so I never went out the village and I always remember being nervous going out for a meal after because I’d never been used to it. And nervous of such a lot of things because you were so [pause] And we used to be playing out sometimes when it was snowing. Behind the church we used to have a slide down there. Sirens would go. Fly home quick. But we were very fortunate around here as regards being bombed. And I remember one day my mum, she used, she was doing her hair, I was in curled up in one chair, my brother in the other. My dad was at work. And we were going up to see about this whist drive place so she was getting herself ready for going. And all of a sudden, we didn’t know if it was a bomb or a plane had crashed. Blew the back, the door in, in the house and the windows really rattled and I think that was before the, the ‘drome though because my mum pushed us under the ordinary table. And when she looked she’d only got her head under about, you know that was hanging out of it. But they are so protective of their children aren’t they? Mothers. Most of them anyway. And, yeah that was very vivid to remember. I can hear it now. The window really rattling and doing. Yeah. It was [pause] That was another thing that we did. What else was there? That. And that’s about it I think.
[recording paused]
MH: Now, on the crescent was the WAAF quarters. All the huts where the, where the WAAFs lived on here. And, and then just further down the road some of the, they weren’t the crew people, they were the ground staff. They had their quarter down there and where later on in life I got married and they brought a knitwear factory into this village and it was the old recreation place for the, for the crews where we, where it was. And it just finished about four years ago. Maybe more, wasn’t it? And it’s still there. You know. But they’re going to pull it down and it seems very sad to me that they’re pulling it down now. But they’re going to build houses so that’s it. And that’s another thing that we did. Yeah. Yeah, it was there and I was there forty six years. Because my first husband died when I was forty eight. You was only twenty something, weren’t you? And I was called Canner then and now I’m Mrs Hodgin. I married my second husband in 19 — what was it? ’92. Twenty ninety two. Yeah. That’s another thing. That’s not nothing to do with the war though.
SB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
MH: On the ‘drome. And we never knew about to be quite honest that there was such a thing as dark people. And one day we, as I say, mum as I said used to help with the whist drives and dances. Well, a lot of the RAF used to come up to the dances and brought this dark lad with them. He was only eighteen and they made such a fuss of him and he was such a nice person. And I, and that was the first black person I’d ever seen. Well, all of us had really. But they were so kind to him you know. Really looked after him. I can remember that vivid. Yeah. And he was nice. What else did you say?
[recording paused]
MH: And we had some Americans. I think they were based at Cranwell. Was it? Cranwell aerodrome. And they used to come around in to the town. By then this was a bit after the war though, Shirley. Wasn’t it? And they used to, used to go into town and they used to give us chewing gum and all sorts. Sweets and things. So we were always pleased to see them around. Yeah. Yeah. They were good. Yeah. That was another thing in my life. Yeah.
[recording paused]
MH: School it would be. I was fourteen and the rationing was still on and I worked in the Cherry Willingham Post Office come shop and still rationed we were. And, oh another thing. In the war we were allowed four of us two pound of sugar a week, half a pound of butter and then it was your flour and whatever you had. And the margarine was awful. I couldn’t stand it. But my dad used to, didn’t like wasting food whatsoever and he used to say I’ve got to eat this margarine on my bread. I said, ‘I’d sooner not have anything on my bread.’ But my mum used to put her butter on my bread and [laughs] but we only had two ounces each a week and that was in the war, well it was right after the war as well quite. Until nineteen fifty something it finished. Yeah. And a lot of the people had quite big families in those days and they couldn’t afford all what they got so they used to give up some of theirs and then other people who were better off used to buy that you see. What was spare. And we never had any tinned fruit. There wasn’t such a thing then in the war. You couldn’t have bananas over three years old. Yes. And I remember when the war finished and the man who, the shop was nearly opposite where, where we lived and I can remember him bringing the first lot of bananas. Well, bananas for us. And mum did us some banana and custard and I always remember that. It was wonderful. They were the first bananas we’d had, yeah. As I can remember. Yeah. And then the sweets came off ration. You didn’t get many sweets in the war. Then they came off ration. The first thing I bought was a Mars bar. Yeah. Funny things. Yeah. So better switch if off.
[recording paused]
SB: On the buses.
MH: We used to have with them. So many RAF people in the buses used to come from Lincoln to pick us up to take us back to Lincoln. My mum more than me because I was a child. And you had a job to get on the buses because they were full of the RAF people. And there used to be conductress in those days and the bus used to be packed and they used to stand from the end of the bus right to the door and the conductress used to be hanging on like this. And the RAF if you was a child went on the bus at all they would always have you on their knees. It used to be absolutely packed. The buses. But now they’re not allowed to you see. But yeah, and that was, my mum often went out for a bus and couldn’t get on it. Yeah. It was strange that was. Yeah. It was packed up with there. The WAAFs. Yeah. I can remember. But this, as I was saying where I live now was the WAAF’s quarters and they used to be their recreation village hall, hall there. Well, then when it all finished they left. That was our village hall. It was a wonderful place and we used to have dances and all sorts in it. A nice big dance place it was. And then, then of course it’s gone now because this has been built but the shop. Yeah. It used to be just there where those houses were. That was. I can remember that. Yeah. But I used to like the WAAF’s uniform. And when I went to this Woodhall Spa.
SB: 40’s.
MH: 40s, was it? Yeah. I says, ‘I hope somebody’s dressed as a WAAF.’ So anyway this lady came up and I said, ‘Oh, do you mind me talking to you?’ I said, ‘I’ve always admired their uniform.’ And, oh she was a lady that organised parties for the whatever. I don’t know what. She’d got seventeen. Not them but all different uniforms and she says, ‘The only thing with the, with the — ’ which I didn’t know, ‘With the tunics is that they all fastened men’s side because they were all done for men. But then they had, the WAAFs came and they used those,’ she says, ‘And they were all fastened the wrong way,’ she said. Oh dear. I said, ‘Well, I’m still learning.’ Yeah. And she invited us to get but we didn’t get did we? So we’re going to go hopefully next year to it again. And, oh I did have a wonderful day there though. Everybody dressed and their hair done up how they used to have it in the war. Yeah. And the stockings with the line. You know. The seams up. That they got on. Yeah. I can remember wearing some of those and make sure your seam was straight. Oh dear. Yeah. Oh God. You’d better switch it off now.
[recording paused]
MH: In the villages you had to have what you called the Army. Things for the Home Guard. And my dad was in the Home Guard and they used to sort of do all, what do you call it on a Sunday morning? All get marching and doing. And I always remember, which is another funny thing is he couldn’t fasten his top hook and eye and I used to stand on a stool to fasten his button. And, yeah there was the Home Guard in the war. Yeah. That was good. Yeah. It was. There was all the men, elderly men who didn’t go to the forces or anything. And there was quite a lot of them used to go marching around on a Sunday morning. And they were there to protect us if the Germans had come, you see. So that was, and that’s all. That’s all I’ve got there. You’d can switch it off.
[recording paused]
MH: I always remember with it being so dark and when it was like November time we always had thick fog. And all of a, then they decided on the ‘drome to give a light for the planes to come in to and it lit all your village up. And I was terrified because of this fog light. Yeah. That was a strange thing. Yeah. That sort of thing. Yeah. That’s —
[recording paused]
MH: And I can remember also a couple living in Cherry Willingham and they had a car which was rare. For the war. People who weren’t, you know had nothing much to do with the war but he was connected with the war and they went through Scampton where Guy Gibson was and his dog. It had a name. I forget its name.
SB: N*****.
MH: And, and they were going past the entrance of the aerodrome on there and this dog ran out in front of them and they killed it. But they did stop and sort it out. But there’s been a film made of the, of Guy Gibson and on it it shows that, it says they didn’t stop. They were very upset because they did stop because, you know. But it was the dog’s fault. It wasn’t their fault. And they were a long time getting over the, of doing it never mind about being on the film that they didn’t stop. And, yeah and that was a sad thing. But, yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margaret Hodgin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Suzanne Bellhouse
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHodginM170810, PHodginM1701
Format
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00:27:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret’s family lived in Fiskerton and her first memory of war time, when she was seven and her brother four, was of her father digging a shelter in the garden. The children would walk or cycle to Reepham school.
Margaret was about eleven when an aerodrome was built a couple of fields away. When she heard the Lancasters take off she would run upstairs to watch from the open window and wave to the crew. She would write the aircraft number in a book and lie awake at night listening for them to return. She remembered a German aircraft flying low to take pictures of the station and then being shot down over Lincoln. Margaret’s parents took in an evacuee before the RAF Fiskerton was built. On a Saturday morning the village children would collect salvage in wheelbarrows and take it to a shed where it would be sorted by the adults. She recalled the time when there was an explosion which blew the house door in. When Margaret was fourteen she worked in Cherry Willingham Post Office and shop. Margaret’s father worked at the forge doing war work and was also in the Home Guard. She remembered he had once been shot at by a German plane but wasn’t injured as he dived into a barn. Margaret’s mother helped with the whist drives and dances in the village hall.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Home Guard
RAF Fiskerton
shelter
shot down
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/69/Memoro 4898.1.mp3
afdd3d84544e3c939509e606c40a0a42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MM: „Das ist, am 13. Februar ist meine Mutter, das Haus ist völlig verbrannt, der ganze Block brannte, und meine Mutter, die war grade von der Arbeit gekommen, Spätschicht, und hatte sich nur hingelegt und hatt den ersten Alarm, „alle in den Luftschutzkellern, grosse Angriffe auf Dresden stehen bevor“, haben die durch’s Radio gesagt und da hat sie gedacht, ach ich blieb liegen. Plötzlich war ihr [unclear] als da fällt eine Puppe runter [unclear] bei mir und da wurde sie aufgeschreckt und da ging auch schon das Licht aus und da hat sie die Tasche und den Koffer genommen und ist in den Keller und hat vorher noch mein Konfirmationskleid vom Bügel gerissen wie sie dachte es war aber eine Kunststoffschürze, die hatt sie noch in den Koffer gesteckt und dann in den Luftschutzkeller gegangen und dann, der erste Angriff der hat das Haus nicht beschädicht und da ist meine Mutter noch raufgerannt, hat überall noch die Gardinen abgerissen weil natürlich sämtliche Fenster kaputt waren und die wehten raus zum Fenster, die währen ja auch sofort, wie sie dachten, Brandherde gewesen aber am zweiten, bezeihungsweise am Mitternachtsangriff, um neun war der erste, viertel neun, ist das Haus auch ausgebrannt, da ist vom Hof her auch Phosphor gekommen. Da ist sie raus und an den Elbwiesen entlang zu ihren Elternhaus und ist auch heil angekommen. Allerdings die Stiefel die sie hatte, die hatten Brandlöcher und die eine Tasche, die hat sie weggeworfen. Ja, [background noise] ich war zu der Zeit bei meinen Grosseltern und wie jetzt der Angriff began, man sah den Himmel blutrot, da ist meine Tante, ihre jüngere Schwester, mit mir in die Stadt gegangen, wir sind also rein in die Stadt, und kamen kaum vorwärts, da kamen schon die ersten Flüchtlinge und Ausgebombten, und da war so ein Gedränge das wir einen Umweg gemacht haben und sind dann merkwürdigerweise an einer Schule vorbeigekommen und da sagte jemand: “ihr Haus brennt, aber die Mutti lebt”, die wohnte da in der Nähe. Und dann sind wir da ungekehrt und sind zu den Grosseltern in das Haus gekommen. Und meine Mutter war dann schon da und meine Cousine, sieben Jahre jünger, ich war ja vierzehn, da kam mir entgegen und rief:” [unclear] ist alles verbrannt”, Ja, ist alles verbrannt, “der Puppenwagen auch?” Das war das schlimmste [unclear]“
Memoro DE: „[unclear] Erzählungen was, wie soll ich sagen, was fehlt ist einfach warscheinlich der Geruch auch dieser Brände, die Schreie, warscheinlich viele Tausende Menschen verletzt, verbranntes Fleisch…“
MM: „Furchtbar. Das habe ich alles nicht so mitgekriegt, weil wir am Elbufer gegangen sind und der ganze Feuersturm ist in die Stadt reingezogen, weil ja der Sauerstoff verbraucht war durch die Hitze und da zog das alles in die Stadt rein. Ausserhalb auf den Elbwiesen war es nur rauchig und natürlich hab ich dann um Mittag die Tiefflieger gesehen. Da hab ich mich mit meiner Tante auf die Eisschollen gelegt, war ja Februar, und haben Körper eingezogen und gesehen wie die Tiefflieger über die Elbe geflogen sind und ich, obwohl es alles geleugnet wird, meine doch, das die geschossen haben, es war ein Lärm, und mit Maschinengewehren, warum ja auch nicht, wurden auch Bomben geworfen. Und Jedenfalls sah man auf den anderen Elbufer sah man die Leute die sich hinwarfen. Ob sie nun getroffen waren [?] oder bloss sich auch hinwarfen, jedenfalls die Tiefflieger die hat man ja gesehen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margarete Meyer
Description
An account of the resource
Margarete Meyer (b. 1936) describes the 13 February 1945 Dresden bombing and recounts how her mother reacted to the alarm. She rushed to the shelter and took some belongings, including what she thought was her confirmation dress. Explains how her mother managed to leave the house after the second attack and escaped to the open fields along the river Elbe. Describes how she managed to reunite with her at her grandparent’s house after fleeing along streets, overcrowded with refugees and injured people. Describes how she didn’t experience the firestorm because she was on the Elbe riverbank, where she saw aircraft bombing civilians and people taking cover by throwing themselves onto the ground.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-02-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:04:15 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#4898
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Dresden
Germany
Europe--Elbe River
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
displaced person
home front
shelter
strafing