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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3604/PSpencerAHG1701.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3604/ASpencerAHG170227.1.mp3
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Title
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Spencer, Arthur
Arthur Humphrey George Spencer
Arthur H G Spencer
A H G Spencer
A Spencer
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history with Flight Lieutenant Arthur Humphrey George Spencer (b. 1921, 1311996 and 145359 Royal Air Force), a memoir and an essay. Arthur Spencer trained in the United States and flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He flew with British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Spencer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-02
2017-02-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Spencer, AHG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: My name’s Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mr Arthur Humphrey George Spencer *********** on the 27th of February 2017 at 10 o’clock. And if I could just start off by saying a very enormous thank-you on behalf of the Bomber Command Digital Archive for agreeing to talk to us and to share your memories. So if I could start by — Perhaps you could tell me a little bit about your family and how you first became involved with Bomber Command.
AS: Ok, well, I was born in Salisbury, Wilts, but my parents must have moved to Southampton before my memory begins and I was brought up in Southampton. I enjoyed school. I went to a very large Boys’ Grammar School and I was in my first year in the Sixth Form at the time of the Munich crisis and there was obviously going to be a war and as I finished school, the war broke out. In fact the first year of the war was during my last year at school. Obviously the Air Force were recruiting madly at the time of the Battle of Britain and I had grown up on the literature of the First World War. Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfred Owen and that sort of thing and realised that warfare in the trenches was pretty horrible. Richard Aldington wrote a very good novel called “Death of a Hero” which I still think is one of the best novels ever written and, so I volunteered for the Air Force and after the usual waiting around period, I found myself in the Air Force. Initially as a, an under training pilot but I didn’t make the grade as a pilot, although I got more than half way through the course. I was very late washing out as the Americans called it. I was in Florida. And so I re-mustered as a navigator and was sent back to Florida, to the United States Naval Air Station Pensacola, to undergo a navigation course. I never failed to be horrified at the inadequacy of the practical training on that course. If I’d had been at an RAF or RCAF Navigation School, I’d have had about a hundred and fifty hours in the air, undertaking navigation exercises. At Pensacola, I had less than thirty hours of flying. All of it over the Gulf of Mexico and never once experienced navigating an aircraft. The American naval way of doing things was to send up about eight people together and two of them would practice taking sun shots with a sextant, two of them would practice using the drift meter, two of them would be firing guns and two of them doing something else which I’ve forgotten, but completely inadequate. However, the theoretical side of the course, the classroom side, was excellent. It was run by an American naval officer, navigator, assisted occasionally by the RAF liaison officer and I did have a very, very good theoretical background. We were told, towards the end of the course, that the top six to, in the final examination, would ferry an aircraft home, so my first flight as a navigator was ferrying a Ventura across the Atlantic. We went to — the top six went to Dorval and then flew, after crewing up with a very experienced American civil pilot and an equally experienced wireless operator and a second pilot, who was, like ourselves, had just finished his course. We were allocated a Ventura. Little two-engined aircraft which we had to deliver to Prestwick. We, all the aircraft being ferried across at that time flew to Gander in Newfoundland and then these little aircraft had to wait for a tail wing component to get across the Atlantic. Now I was stuck there with another navigator who’d been an acquaintance at Pensacola, but not a particular friend, but because we were stuck there for a fortnight together waiting for a tail wing, we became very good friends and by co-incidence, he was sent to the same squadron as myself and when he retired from a very senior position in industry, he came to live in Somerset and so we remained lifelong friends. And, he died a couple of years ago. His family were good enough to ask me to make the eulogy at his funeral and his wife is now in a nursing home near Taunton. We try and see her every third week because her son lives in Australia and her daughter lives in Germany so we are the local contact. His name is George Brantingham and I mention this because he plays a fairly important part in a later stage of the story. Anyway, we got across the Atlantic successfully and after further training, I got to Bomber Command Operational Training Unit at Upper Heyford. Number 16 OTU. And one of the most important things you do at Operational Training Unit is to crew up into a crew. And in the literature, you find horrific stories of people being put into a hanger, twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty wireless operators and so on and being told, ‘Sort yourselves out.’ And I read this sort of thing time and time again. It was much more civilised fortunately at Upper Heyford. We were told that the course would be four weeks ground school and then the pilots would go off to a satellite airfield to learn to fly Wellingtons and then they’d come back and we would spend the last six weeks of the course flying cross-countrys and so on together. And we’d only been there two or three days when George, my friend, George Brantingham said to me, ‘I’ve got myself a pilot.’ Well I hadn’t really thought about it at that stage but I said, ‘You were quick off the mark, George. Who is it?’ And he told me it was a Sergeant Tracy, a larger than life American who’d gone north over the border to join the RCAF. And so at the next opportunity, I contacted George and said, ‘I hear you’ve got yourself a navigator. Can you recommend a pilot to me?’ And he thought for a minute and he said, ‘Well I reckon young Jimmy Munro is about the best pilot on our course.’ At the earliest opportunity, I found Jimmy. A very fresh-faced eighteen year old Canadian and I said, ‘Have you got a navigator yet?’ ‘No.’ ‘What about taking me on?’ ‘Ok that’s fine.’ And that conversation is probably why I’m here today. If I’d had a different pilot I might well not have been. But he was, as Bill Tracy had said, an incredibly good pilot. He’d grown up on the Ottawa River in a little hamlet called Fitzroy Harbour and part of his boyhood was canoeing on the Ottawa River and he handled a Lancaster just as well as he handled a canoe. And so we got through our OTU successfully. Went to Swinderby, just outside of Lincoln, to convert to Lancasters and so to 97 Squadron, fairly late in December, before Christmas, but fairly late in December 1942. Can I stop there a minute?
AS: Talk about —
PL: Re-starting, re-starting recording with Mr Spencer.
AS: Right, well, 97 Squadron in fact didn’t unleash us against the enemy right away. They gave us quite a bit more training before they decided to let us fly Lancasters, one of their precious Lancasters, on Operations. 97 by the way, was one of the very first squadrons to be equipped with Lancasters and part of their history was the daylight Augsburg raid of 1942. And some of the crew who took part in that raid were still at Woodhall Spa when we joined the squadron. Our first Operation, like all first Operations was mine-laying down on the Gironde estuary, near Bordeaux, and then we set about operating mainly to the Ruhr, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Munich, Wilhelmshaven. All in my Log Book. And the incident I want to talk about a little bit, is on the 19th of March 1943, when I flew with one of the Dambusters. Co-incidentally, he was also Munro but whereas my pilot was Sergeant Munro, this was Flight Lieutenant Les Munro, which is a name you may possibly have come across before now. Well, the three crews went from our squadron to join 617, but they started intensive low-level flying training before they left, before they left Woodhall Spa. And on one of these occasions, Flight Lieutenant Munro’s navigator was quite badly gashed across the forehead in what we would now call, nowadays call a bird strike. Now these three crews weren’t screened, was the word which we used for Operations, they were still taking part in Operations, and he was scheduled to go on Operations, but he didn’t have a navigator. Jock Rumbles, his navigator was too badly injured to go, so I was allocated to him. And that morning I flew an air test with him. You nearly always did an air test before you flew Operations at night. Twenty-five minutes. But Operations were cancelled before we even got to briefing. So although I flew with him, I didn’t operate with him. At the time I was very glad not to, because it was regarded as a bit dicey operating away from your own crew. You were very much a Unit as a crew but in retrospect it would be nice to be able to say I’d flown an Operation with one of the Dambusters. But I didn’t think that at the time, I was glad not to go. Well we continued flying, building up Operations ‘till we moved down to Bourn in April 1943 to join Pathfinder Force. We had another intensive period of training. Normally when crews joined the Pathfinder Force they went to Upwood, the Pathfinder Training School, but because we moved as a squadron, the Unit’s instructors came to us and we did a lot of intensive training. I remember Bennett. He was frequently with the squadron. He was the AOC at Pathfinder Force, of course. And one of the things he said was, ‘Of course the really important people in the crew are the navigators and bomb aimers. The pilots are only the chauffeurs to get them there.’ Which was very good for our morale, of course, as navigators. And by the time we’d finished our Pathfinder Training, it was May. Nights were very, very short indeed. And so virtually all our early Pathfinder Operations were to the Ruhr and the Ruhr took about three hours, three and half, four hours. Anywhere else in Germany took much longer. You couldn’t get there and back under cover of darkness. So we went to the Ruhr. Can we stop a second again there?
PL: Of course.
PL: Re-starting the tape.
AS: Pathfinder Force had been formed sometime fairly early in 1942. It happened after all Bomber Command had been equipped with cameras which took automatic photos when bombs were released. And when these early pictures were analysed, it was found that something like five percent of the aircraft dropped their bombs within three miles of the target, or something like that. Some infinitely small number of bombs were getting anywhere near the target and one of the measures adopted was to form Pathfinder Force which was then equipped with the, what was then the state of the art radar operation and all the other new instruments that were coming in and our job was to go in and either light up a target or more frequently mark it with bombs which were called target indicators which would burst barometrically at three thousand feet over the target because frequently the target couldn’t be seen once bombs started going down with so much smoke and dust coming up. But these target indicators hung on a parachute at about three thousand feet but they only lasted six minutes so they had to be backed-up fairly frequently. And the main Force coming along behind would bomb on the target indicator, not worry about finding an actual building or railway yard or docks or something like that to — Anyway, as I say, our early Operations in Pathfinder Force were all the Ruhr because the nights were so short. And we expected to be going to the Ruhr on the 16th of June. We’d done an air test in the morning and a bit naughtily we’d been shooting up a train just outside of Cambridge, diving at it, flying alongside it and the passengers were obviously enjoying it, they were waving back to us enthusiastically and the engine-driver was obviously enjoying it too, because he leaned out of his cabin and gave us a sign. [laughs] And er, but when it got a bit close into Cambridge, we decided we’d better go home, so we flew back to base. And when we got back to base, there was the Flight Commander’s van waiting in dispersal and we thought, ‘Oh dear. We’re in trouble,’ because we were flying quite low enough for people to see our identification letters, ‘OF-J Johnny’, and there must have been some senior officer on board, we thought, who’d got on the phone, the blower we would have called it then, as soon as he got into Cambridge and complained about these young idiots who were risking their lives in an expensive aircraft. However the Flight Commander was not there for that reason. The Flight — Jimmy opened the window and the Flight Commander called up, ‘Jimmy. You’re to take a week’s kit and fly up to Scampton after lunch.’ ‘Ok. What for?’ ‘I don’t know. You’ll get all the gen when you get there.’ So we weren’t in trouble. We found, when we got back to the mess, that four crews were going to Scampton. Now Scampton of course was the home of the Dambusters. So our attitude was, a little bit ambivalent. On the one hand, what a compliment to be one of only four crews in Pathfinder Force to be selected to take part in some special Operation. On the other hand, were we really awfully keen to be, take part in some Operation with a squadron which had only done one Operation, but on it, had lost about forty-five percent of it’s aircraft. [laughs] So, as I say, our thoughts were a bit ambivalent but there was nothing we could do about it. So we packed our kit after lunch and flew up to Scampton and when we got there, we were eventually four aircraft as I say. I’ll name the four captains. Jimmy, now a Pilot Officer, Pilot Officer Jones, Pilot Officer Munro, Pilot Officer Jones, who’d been one of the other crews that joined 97 from Swinderby in, at Christmas and two older pilots who were just coming back to 97 for a second tour. Because 97, a two-flight squadron at Bourn, at Woodhall Spa, had grown to a three-flight squadron at Bourn, so a lot of new crews coming in. So four crews were taken along to a briefing room and there, an elderly captain, a Group Captain, told us why we were there. When I say elderly, he was about thirty-five. But, er. [laughs] You know, we were all in our teens and young twenties so he seemed elderly. I’ve researched him since, and actually and I’ve found he was thirty-four at the time. [laughs] Anyway, he told us that we would be assisting Five Group, they were, of course based all round Lincoln, on a special Operation which would take place in the near future and we would be lighting the target and marking it for the aircraft of Five Group who would provide the main Force. Ok. Where? Well he either couldn’t or wouldn’t tell us when. ‘It’ll be in the next few nights, because you need a full moon to reach a pin-point target.’ And he also told us that for the next couple of nights, we would be practising over Wainfleet Sands which was a bombing range on the Wash. And that we weren’t allowed to go into Lincoln, which seemed a pity, but, still, we were confined to camp. Well after a couple of nights practising over Wainfleet Sands, we — going back a little bit, we were told as the Pathfinder crews, we had to decide the plan of attack. And what we decided was that two aircraft, ours and Pilot Officer Jones would go in first and lay a line of flares either side of the target and the other two would come along and mark it behind us. Aft er a couple of days practice, we went to briefing, and I think it was the only time I ever went for a morning briefing, and we were told where the target was, and it was the old airship shed at Friedrichshafen on Lake Constance. And they were manufacturing there some new radar devices which would no doubt improve the defences of the Ruhr and it would be in our own interest to make sure that this attack was well-carried out. But that if it didn’t occur in the next few nights, it wouldn’t take place at all because it needed good weather and a full moon. And then at the end of the briefing, almost off-handedly, we were told, ‘Well. Friedrichshafen is much too far into Germany for you to get there and back under cover of darkness so you’ll fly straight on over the Mediterranean to Algiers. Algiers and Tunisia of course having recently, having been taken by Operation Torch, the attack on the west side of Africa. Mainly French and American but it had given us airfields in North Africa which we could use. And after briefing, we could go to stores and draw some tropical kit. Which we did. None of us of course had badges of rank on this basic tropical kit which caused one or two problems when we were in Algiers, but I’ll come to that later. Well the afternoon was a lovely afternoon and we thought, ‘Ok.’ But we kept in touch with the Met Office and they got increasingly pessimistic as the afternoon went on and very close they said, ‘No. It’s not going to happen tonight.’ So we wasted our time the next day and the Met Office were becoming more optimistic and it looked as though we would go and apparently a Met Flight, Meteorological Flight, a Spitfire, went out over southern Germany and reported that the weather was good, so Operations were on. So we loaded up our kit and we took off that night at twenty to ten. That was Double British Summer Time of course and as we took off from Scampton, which incidentally was an all grass airfield. There were no runways there which surprised us that the Dambusters had been operating from an air— and of course we had a terrifically heavy load, over two thousand two hundred gallons of petrol in order to do the long flight to Algiers, so it was quite a struggle getting the thing into the air but we all got into the air and as we looked round, there were aircraft coming up from all the other Lincolnshire airfields and we set off and flew to Reading which was the first turning point. And from Reading to Selsey Bill, down on the south coast and we got there too early to cross over to France. We would have arrived in daylight and fighters patrolling the south coast came up and flew around us and waggled their wings at us which we took to mean they were wishing us good luck. And as darkness began to fall, one or two more adventurous spirits certainly set course earlier than I intended to let my pilot go but I’d done my calculations very carefully and we would get to the French coast at darkness, not into daylight. I had no wish to be over the French coast in daylight. We crossed the French coast at a little seaside town called Cabourg and I thought perhaps I’m the only person of the, what, five hundred airmen above Cabourg who’s been there before because at one stage of my education, about the third year of Grammar School, the Headmaster had said to my parents, ‘He’s doing very well in most subjects but his French is not very wonderful.’ And that was an understatement. And he recommended an exchange with a French boy and the school being right on the French coast, along the south coast, many exchanges took place every year, of course, and I was lucky enough to go three times to the same little town in Normandy, and the nearest seaside town was Cabourg, so I was taken to Cabourg quite a lot as a fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year old. Anyway we crossed at Cabourg and the Germans fired off light flak at us but light flak burns out at about twelve or thirteen thousand feet and we were up at about twenty thousand so we sneered at it a little bit and put our noses down to, as we’d been ordered to do, to go quickly through the fighter battle on the French coast and the next turning point was Orléans. Very badly blacked-out and then we turned east towards Switzerland and the weather deteriorated a bit but I’d got a drift on and an occasional light and I was pretty certain that whatever the weather, we’d see the Rhine, because even at that far from the mouth of the Rhine, it’s still a very big river. And just about as, on the ETA, Estimated Time of Arrival I’d given the pilot, he and the bomb aimer shouted, simultaneously, ‘Rhine coming up.’ And there was Basle. Basle of course is part of Switzerland. We shouldn’t have been over Switzerland but we briefed to go over Switzerland, so there we were. And we flew along the, roughly along the border between Switzerland and Germany to a point on the south side of the lake. The south side of the lake being in Switzerland and we were to orbit a little headland on the south side of the lake and then we had worked out it would take three minutes to cross the lake and three minutes before Zed, the time at which the Operation was due to begin, we set out and made our way across the lake. As we crossed the lake, the bomb aimer looking down vertically, was able to say, ‘Crossing the coast now.’ And I then counted down twelve seconds and after twelve seconds, start releasing our flares. Well, I couldn’t do any more then and I stood up in the astrodome and looked out and watched the flares bursting underneath us and when the fourth flare went, and there was no sign of other flares, they were on our left-hand side, I thought, ‘Oh goodness, have I committed some dreadful boob?’ Because there was terrific responsibility, of course, upon me and the navigator of the other aircraft. But as our fourth flare went down, a line of steerers [?] started appearing about half a mile away on the left-hand side, on our port side, and there was this enormous aircraft hangar clearly illuminated between the two lines of flares. And we were going to drop twelve flares initially and we continued and as we dropped our last flare, and I still couldn’t tell you which happened first, but two things happened, a green target indicator had burst right over the roof of the factory and we were coned in searchlights. Now, coned in searchlights is not a very nice experience I can assure you. We had been coned three or four times before and it seems to take an eternity to get out of this cone, if you’re lucky enough to get out of it. So, eventually we, Jimmy twisted and turned and twisted and turned but we couldn’t seem to shake it off and he turned about and put the nose right down and we dived out over the lake and shook them off. And we were supposed to go back to the lake after we’d finished our first, but we didn’t expect to go back to it like — that method, but there we were circling over the lake and after a few minutes, the Master of Ceremonies as he was called, master bomber, the Group Captain, had called for us to go in and lay a second line of flares and again we were coned but we got out of the cone fairly quickly that time and we had a couple of bombs, the small bombs we were carrying, we dropped those and back out over the lake and after about twenty minutes, the Master of Ceremonies declared that the raid was over and we should make our way to Algiers. He reminded us that we were very close to the Alps so that we should climb hard through the Alps and, ‘See you in Algiers.’ So we climbed hard through the Alps and, which was a lovely experience, I mean, you may well have crossed the Alps in a modern airliner at thirty thousand feet with the lights on, as I have, and looked down and thought, ‘Well. There are the Alps.’ But when you’re only just above the top and there’s no light in the aircraft and the full moon is shining, absolutely lovely. Wonderful experience. I shall remember all my life. We crossed the Italian coast somewhere close to Genoa and then we got down low, down to the sea, to keep beneath the Italian radar in Sardinia or Corsica and made for Algiers. When we got to Algiers, there was a terrific fog and we thought, ‘Well, the sixty aircraft are going to be directed out to sea and the crews are all going to be baled out,’ because you couldn’t see a thing and people were calling up, ‘I’ve only ten minutes petrol left.’ And there were no modern aids there of course. But there was an American flying control officer with enormous initiative and he got on the end of the runway in a jeep and fired Very cartridges up through the mist. And I shall always remember what he shouted, ‘The first man to make home base wins.’ [laughs] A baseball expression I assume. And the sixty aircraft landed with — one of them, there was a dead bomb aimer on board, who’d been hit by flak over the target, one from Woodhall Spa actually with the squadron that had been formed there when we left. And so we had a couple of days in Algiers. A lot of sunshine. Eating some of the fruit that we hadn’t seen for years in England and then on the way back we bombed Spetzia which was a bit of an anti-climax really because the, only two of the Pathfinder aircraft were serviceable. Two of them had to stay and come home more slowly. Ten of the main Force aircraft had been damaged over the target so we dropped our bombs fairly quickly on Spetzia and back to Scampton. It was an anti-climax really after the — and there we are. We flew back to Bourn that evening after sleeping for the day and Bennett was there to meet us, the AOC, and he was absolutely livid. Relations between him and Cochran were notoriously bad. Cochran was the AOC of the Group, Five Group. And he said, ‘It’s nonsense using four aircraft. If one had been shot down or — you should have used twenty.’ And he felt that the Pathfinders had only been used so that they could be blamed if something went wrong. He was not a happy man. And there we are. That was Operation Bellicose. The raid on — The first shuttle service operation. It was thought at the time that it might be followed by quite a few more but it wasn’t because of the difficulty of serving Lancasters in Algiers. You would have needed a whole force of ground crew out there to — So it wasn’t a one-off, it did happen, I think once more, with a very small group of aircraft but didn’t become a habit. Can we stop there again?
PL: Re-starting tape.
AS: The attack on Spezia, on return from Friedrichshafen, was in fact our thirtieth operation which is the end of a tour. And we expected to go off on our three weeks’ Leave. In Pathfinder Force the arrangements were for a tour of operations were a bit different from those in the rest of Bomber Command. In the main Force, you did thirty operations, then you were given a rest which was said to be at least six months. You were probably an instructor at an OTU and then you could go back for a second tour of twenty operations. But in Pathfinder Force, they didn’t see the point in dispersing a crew after thirty operations. Having got an experienced crew together, hopefully a successful crew together, why not keep them together. So after thirty operations, you got three weeks’ Leave and then you came back and did another fifteen. Not twenty. And to recompense you for going straight through, this was then reckoned to be two tours. Anyway we got back from Spetzia, our thirtieth operation, confidently expecting to go on Leave the next day but the pressure was on and the flight commander, Wing Commander Alabaster said, ‘You’ll have to do two more operations before you can go on Leave.’ So we did two more operations. Both to Cologne. And then we drew our railway warrants and ration cards and went off on three weeks’ glorious Leave and got back in time for the Battle of Hamburg. The first raid on, of the big raids on Hamburg had already taken place while we were still on Leave, on the last night of our Leave. And I’d have liked to have been on that one because as you may know, that was the first night that Window was used. These metallic strips that people dropped. Well they were still very effective when we went the next night and the next night. But I’d have liked to have been able to say I was on the first Windows Operation, but I wasn’t. I was on the second. So at the Battle of Hamburg, and a trip to the Ruhr as well, and then — I’ve lost my place in my Log Book but I shall find it in a moment. [a short pause as he turns pages] It was pretty obvious to us that after Hamburg, Butch Harris, the AOC of Bomber Command, would be looking at Berlin as his next main target. And we got to the middle of August, and you could usually get some idea of targets from the bomb load and the petrol load which was published first thing in the morning on the list of crew, the Order of Battle as it was called. And it looked, for all the world, as though it was a suitable bomb and petrol load for Berlin. And we were a bit astounded because it was full moon and at that time, flying far over Germany in the full moon was not very healthy. The German Fighter Force was becoming increasingly skilful and morale dropped a little bit in the squadron at the thought of going to Berlin in the night of the full moon. But there again, there was nothing we could do about it so we went to briefing and there was a red line — at the end of the briefing room there was a great map across the end wall of course, and there was a red tape attached to the map, going well on the way towards Berlin, but not to Berlin itself. And we were eventually told that the target was Peenemünde. No one had ever heard of Peenemünde of course. So briefing continued and we were told that this was a very important German radar research station. Not a word about rockets of course. And we went through all the usual briefing, the Met Officer, the navigation officer on the route, the bombing leader on the bomb load, the signals officer on the signals to be used, so on and — intelligent officer on defences. But there were a number of additional things. We were told that there would be an attack by seven or eight Mosquitoes on Berlin, which would hopefully keep the Fighter Force away from us. We were told that there would be a massive number of night fighters operating over Germany that night. We were told that we’d be dropping our bombs and target indicators not from twenty thousand feet as we usually did but from eight thousand feet and that there would be a master bomber. And this was the first time a master bomber was being used on a really big Operation. Obviously Guy Gibson kept in touch with his nineteen aircraft on the Dams raid and on that Friedrichshafen raid, we had a master bomber, but it was only sixty aircraft. And this was the first time that a really large force of nearly six hundred aircraft had a master bomber who circled the target and explained to the main force, which were the most accurately placed target indicators to aim for. And also, told when the aiming point was to be changed because the aiming point for the first wave, and we were in the first wave, was the dwelling quarters of the scientists and technicians working at Peenemünde and the second wave was the attack on the factory and the third wave was the attack on the experimental station. So we had our briefing and went and had an operational meal and drew parachutes and escape kit and got dressed and out to the aircraft and a chap with the ground crew as usual and we took off at twenty fifty. Ten to nine. Which was Double British Summer Time, so it was still light when we crossed the coast at Southwold. And out across the North Sea. Again, a lovely night. You know the navigator of course worked behind a black-out curtain over his maps and charts but I couldn’t resist popping out frequently to have a look at the sun and the moon as it came up, shimmering on the sea, silver, and there was hardly any wind and it was absolutely beautiful. And there we were going off to deliver bombs to people. It took about an hour and ten minutes to cross the North Sea and as we approached the Danish coast, there was some activity over on our starboard side and searchlights and flak and the searchlights coned an aircraft and eventually the flak got very close and the aircraft burst into flame and flaming bits started dropping into the sea. And I sometimes give lectures on this to groups like Probus and so on and I always say that I ought really to have felt enormous sympathy for that crew and I probably did but foremost in my mind was the thought, ‘What a rotten bit of navigation.’ Because if they were ahead of us, there must have been another Pathfinder crew. In fact there were other Pathfinder crews and yet their navigator had allowed them to wander over Flensburg, the northern-most town in Germany which was very heavily defended. And they’d paid the price for it. However there was nothing we could do about it so we continued on our way. It took about twelve minutes to cross Denmark and then down over the Baltic Sea. Masses of islands of course. Hundreds of islands, so navigation was a very simple matter. As we got close to Peenemünde, I’d given the bomb aimer and the pilot the ETA and there was a shout from the bomb aimer, ‘There’s a smoke screen ahead.’ And so there was. I’d popped out and had a look and there was a smoke screen over, as we thought, right over the target. And so it was. But a smoke screen blows in line and when you’re like my four fingers, and when you’re looking at it from a distance you can’t see, but as you get increasingly over the top, you can see down, so as we got nearer to the target, we could in fact see the target.
PL: So there were gaps in the smoke screen where you could see down.
AS: Yes, yes. Oh yes, yes. They weren’t — The smoke containers which sent the smoke up were spaced across. They couldn’t have them absolutely close together so there were gaps between these lines of smoke, the wind blew the smoke across, but — So there were some TIs already down. The —
PL: TIs?
AS: The master bomber informed us which were the most accurately placed, so we place our TIs and our bomb, one four thousand pounder there. Hopefully over the living quarters of the scientists and technicians. And there was no defences whatsoever. It was probably the easiest trip we did. And on over the target to take our photo. You had to stay straight and level for twenty-five seconds once your bombs had gone so that the photo could be taken. And then we turned away. We didn’t fly exactly back on the same route because of course we’d have been flying on to the incoming aircraft but just south and once again, out over Denmark I made sure that my pilot stayed well clear of Flensburg. Back across the North Sea, dropped down to — we’d climbed after bombing at eight thousand feet. Back down to where we could take off our oxygen masks and have a cup of coffee and the radio officer had got some light music on the wireless and we had our sandwiches and so back to Bourn. And 97 Squadron had sent eighteen aircraft. One of them had returned early with engine trouble, the other seventeen got back. Not a scratch on them. And so, went to the parachute section first thing to — after a word with the ground crew while we were waiting for transport. Get rid of parachute, back to de-briefing and we were all fairly delighted it looked as if it had been a successful Operation. But one of the things we’d been told at briefing, which I should have said before, the very last thing was that it was essential that this Operation should be successful and if it were not successful, we should have to go again the next night and the next night irrespective of casualties. Now, the first night, you can rely on surprise but if you had to go a second or third time, you couldn’t. So that did concentrate the mind a little bit. So, and so to bed. Operational meal, traditional eggs and bacon and so to bed. Now I’ve always been an early waker-up. Quarter past six this morning. Quarter past six virtually every morning. And I was an early waker-up during the war and even if we were not back ‘till three or four o’clock in the morning. Most of the squadron would sleep through ‘till lunchtime. I never once missed my breakfast. I wouldn’t say I was first up in the morning but I was always in the Mess by nine o’clock. I’d get up about eight and have a shower, because you always felt dirty after a night out in a bomber. They were pretty dirty smelly things, these big bombers. And I would go to breakfast and then I would normally sort of spend the morning hanging around waiting for the crew, the rest of the crew to come round. I’d write up my Log Book, I’d catch up with my correspondence, I’d try the crossword in one of the posh papers and I might practice my snooker skills ‘cause there was no one else in the billiard room. And so on. But that morning, I didn’t do any of those things, I walked up to the Intelligence library to have a look at the photographs, to see how successful, with the thought of that threat still hanging over us. And when I got there, I knew of course from what I’d seen the night before, that it was likely to be successful. And so it proved to be but what absolutely astounded me was that we’d lost over forty aircraft. But I didn’t — Apart from the chap that we’d seen chopped out over Flensburg, we didn’t see any sign of any defences. But what had happened of course, that these German fighters had been circling over Berlin and then the attack was on Peenemünde. It’s only about twenty minutes flying from Berlin to Peenemünde, so those fighters which still had enough petrol and many didn’t, many had to land and refuel, but some of them were able to fly up to Peenemünde and they got in the third wave. And the third wave lost about twenty percent of their aircraft. One in five. The second wave was somewhere in between the two. I think they lost about eight or nine percent of their aircraft, but not as bad as the third wave. So Bomber Command did lose a lot of aircraft that night. And, but at least it was successful. We didn’t have to go again. And that was our fortieth Operation, so we had five more to do to finish our tour. It really was Berlin the next two but by that time, the full moon had gone and we did a couple over to Berlin and we went to, I think, to Nuremberg and once to the Ruhr. And then our last trip was coming up. We did our forty-fourth trip on the 31st of August. Our last trip was coming up and we were briefed to go on the 1st of September to Berlin but Operations were cancelled and the same happened on the 2nd we were briefed to go to Berlin and Operations were cancelled. Now the corporal in charge of our ground crew, a young married man, and the ground crew of course, used to work outside in appalling conditions, not in a warm hangar but out at dispersal. And, they, this corporal was due to go on Leave when we got back on the 2nd after our final Operation, but it was cancelled on the 1st, he wouldn’t go on Leave. When it happened again on the 2nd he wouldn’t go on Leave. He insisted on staying until we had completed our forty-fifth Operation. Well, on September the 3rd, that morning, the invasion of the mainland of Italy started. And we thought, ‘Oh. It would be a nice cushy trip to Milan or Turin for our final Operation,’ because they were really a long way but they were fairly cushy targets. The Italian defences weren’t very wonderful. And. But it wasn’t. We didn’t know of course, but apparently an agreement had already been made with the Italian government that the Italians would surrender and we would stop bombing their major cities. It was Berlin again, by a long route back over Sweden again. Over neutral territory. And we got back and that was our forty-fifth Operation. And most of us decided that, that was enough, but unfortunately Jimmy and two of the gunners stayed with him and it wasn’t. And so there we are. That’s the end of my life in Bomber Command.
PL: That is absolutely wonderful. Thank you very much indeed. Can I just ask you a couple of other things?
AS: Um hum.
PL: The first. So what did you do, so after the war, what did you go on to do then, after you left Bomber Command?
AS: Well, as I said, Bomber Command was equipped with the state of the art radar. And just after I finished Operations, and I mention the fact that Africa had now been cleared of the Germans, and if one listened to the news during ’42, ’43, you heard about a Bomber Force from the Middle East attacking Tobruk, and Benghazi, and it was pretty obvious that when airfields became available, these aircraft would move over to Italy. And, an advert, it wasn’t phrased as an advert, a notice appeared in Daily Routine Orders, asking for someone to instruct in this state of the art radar overseas. Now it didn’t state where overseas, but one didn’t need to be a genius to realise it was going to be the Mediterranean theatre and that these aircraft — so I thought, ‘Well that sounds interesting.’ And I’d only recently been Commissioned. I was a Pilot Officer and it was advertised as a Flight Lieutenant vacancy so I thought, ‘Well, have ago at this.’ And I applied and after the usual air force delay, I found I was accepted and I went home to Southampton on a week’s Embarkation Leave and when I got back, the squadron were kind enough to divert an aircraft, ‘cause I had to go to Blackpool which was the Embarkation Centre, they diverted across country to take me up to Blackpool, which would have saved a nasty train journey. And, I, eventually, we were kitted out for overseas there and had various inoculations and so on, after about a fortnight in Blackpool, up to Liverpool early one morning to get aboard a troop ship which went a long way out into the Atlantic to avoid the — ‘cause the Germans were still in France of course and they had aircraft operating from the south of France against convoys, but we didn’t see any sign of them and back into the Mediterranean and we docked in Algiers and I was in a transit camp there for two or three days and then down to Tunis which was Headquarters of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces. And there, a Wing Commander looked after me and told me what I was going to do. And apart from the six Wellington squadrons they had, they had one Liberator squadron which was a South African squadron and a Halifax squadron and the Halifax squadron was going to be equipped with the same sort of apparatus that we had in Pathfinder Force and act as what they were going to call a Target Marking Force once they’d got across to Italy. Now that squadron was still in, in the desert, so after spending Christmas at, at Tunis, the Wing Commander and a mate of his, they found out that my French was pretty good so they took me down to Bône market, hoping to get some turkeys for Christmas, for the Mess. But, at the government’s expense, we flew this aircraft down to Bône but went to the market but there were no turkeys. We found a bag of fresh carrots. And I suppose fresh vegetables were something of a relief to people who were living on rations. And we took those back. They were gratefully accepted. And I remember on Christmas Day, I went for a swim in the Mediterranean with a WAAF officer. It was pretty cold, but we wanted to say we’d swum on Christmas Day and we also went and found the amphitheatre at Carthage which is very close to Tunis and I knew a little bit about the Punic wars and so on. So we went and explored Carthage, the amphitheatre at Carthage. And a few days after Christmas, before the New Year, I went down to join this Halifax squadron in the desert, at El Adem, just outside of Tobruk and they were merely sort of kicking their heels really because, waiting to go across to Italy. They would occasionally operate against Crete port installations where the Germans were still in Occupation of Crete. But they weren’t doing very much and I couldn’t do very much with them at that stage, ‘cause they didn’t have any equipment of course. I talked to them, but not very much. Eventually the ground crew all went off, back to the Delta, to go by ship across to Italy and we were left for a week. More or less living on our own devices with no ground crew and the CO, the Wing Commander didn’t have a crew so I was crewed up with him as a navigator and flew across to Italy and the night before we went, we even took the tents down and slept under the wing of the Halifax for the night and the Khamsin was blowing at the time so there was sand everywhere and during that week, a dirty old Arab who used to appear on a donkey which was much too small for him, and he’d have a bucket of eggs, tiny little eggs, but he would barter a half a dozen eggs for a cupful of sugar, so at least you could get a few eggs to fry. And. Anyway we flew over to Italy. All the airfields literally were around Foggia, that area which — [pause as he turns pages] This area around here, it’s, in fact, you’ve got the Apennines running up the middle and a few airfields there but there’s a lot of hills that side of Italy, of course but there were masses of airfields round there and we flew to one of those called Celone and eventually the squadron was equipped with the apparatus so that I got on with my work but eventually I was posted away from the squadron, back to the Group Headquarters because my responsibilities were to the whole Group, not to that squadron. And I decided that having read my Siegfried Sassoon about ‘scarlet Majors at the Base’ ‘And when the war was done, and the youth stone dead, he’d toddle safely home and die - in bed’ and you know, the Hotspur’s criticism of a staff officer assented popinjay in Henry 1V and I decided I ought to do a few Operations. Bennett had insisted on his Staff Operations operating occasionally. In fact on one night, two staff officers turned up and went with the same crew. Much to my surprise. And they went with a pilot with whom I’d done a training exercise once and frankly I wouldn’t have wanted to fly with him on Operations and neither of them came back. The whole crew went missing. Anyway, I felt as staff officer, I would set a good example by going occasionally. And a very interesting Op came up. I used to go to the meeting of the — air staff meeting every morning and there was a guard’s officer there who was responsible for liaison with the Resistance. And he came one morning and said that the Resistance in southern France were going to mount an attack on a German airfield and they would welcome a diversion by an attack on the airfield that night and I thought, ‘That sounds interesting. So. I’ll go along.’ And I went along with this Target Marking Force and dropped flares over this and there were obviously things happening on the ground and this was just before the invasion, so, as a result of that, the French gave me a Légion d’Honneur. [laughs] Which I’ll come back to in a moment. And I did two more with the Target Marking Force and two more in the Wellingtons because the Wellingtons increasingly were, as the Germans withdrew, were being used for supply-dropping over Yugoslavia and so I did a daylight with the Wellingtons over Yugoslavia, dropping supplies to what appeared to be a crowd of bandits in the hills above Sarajevo, who waved enthusiastically to us as the parachutes dropped down. And then a night one, dropped on a big cross, up in the hills behind Trieste and so that was quite interesting really. And eventually after about a year, the air force decided my, I’d done enough, that people were now fully trained and so they sent me home and I thought they’d forgotten about me. They sent me on Leave when I got home. I was on Leave for about five or six weeks. And of course the air force never really forget about you. I eventually got a telegraph to report to such and such a Wing Commander at Astral House, London and I went up and he said, ‘Well what do you want to do now?’ Which surprised me a bit because in the forces, they usually tell you what you’re going to do. [laughs] You know, I must have looked a bit perplexed, so he said, ‘How do you fancy going to Transport Command?’ And I said, ‘Alright. It’s a flying job?’ ‘Yes.’ So I went to Transport Command and flew Dakotas from Croydon to the continental capitals of liberated Europe. And during the Transport Command Training, one had been given the opportunity to get a Civil Air Navigator’s Licence. You had to get a certain percentage of the exams and you had to take an extra paper in Civil Aviation in the war but I did that and got mine. So just after Christmas ’46, there was an advert, again not really an advert, a notice in DRO saying that BOAC were again recruiting navigators. Anyone interested give their name to the Adjunct So I thought, ‘Well this is a good opportunity.’ And so I went off to BOAC. Everyone — there were an enormous number of people of course joining BOAC from the air force at the time and we all came to Whitchurch, just outside of Bristol to their Civil Training School and after a few weeks there, I was, a month, six weeks, I was posted to the flying boats at Poole Harbour. So I could live at home in Southampton and flying to Singapore and back. To Singapore and back took eighteen days for the crew in those days. Took five days for the passengers. No, three days to Singapore and five days to Australia. It was a different world. I sometimes, again, lecture to groups like Probus and Rotary about it because Civil Aviation was so different in those days. So there we are. End of story. Any questions? [laughs]
PL: Many, many questions. So, so then once, so that’s, that’s basically what you did then, you were in Civil, Civil Aviation for a few years.
AS: For eighteen months, yes.
PL: For eighteen months. And then — So how did you get into teaching?
AS: Well, I — in fact I had a place at Southampton University before the war and I didn’t take it up, but I went to a Training College because I wanted to get through fairly quickly. And the Training College in Winchester was giving a shortened course of eighteen months so I didn’t do what they called the Emergency Teacher’s Certificate of a year, but I did eighteen months and I was then qualified a teacher. And the school where I did my final Teaching Practice, the Head offered me a job. So. Which was just outside of Southampton and so I was with him for about seven years and then I came to a more senior post in Bristol. Bristol was one the earliest Authorities to go Comprehensive and then I got a Deputy Headship at the Thornbury. Which is ten miles north of Bristol. Quaint old town. And quite a long time as Deputy Head and I was, someone hinted to me that I ought to apply for this new school at Weston-Super-Mare and —
PL: Which is called —
AS: Priory School. You may have passed it.
PL: And that was a ground-breaking new school.
AS: Oh yeah. You may have passed it, if you came round the Bay, when you turned off the motorway, did you turn right by the Magistrates Court?
PL: I can’t remember.
AS: Almost immediately — or did you come right through — no, you didn’t come right through—
PL: I hugged the — I went on a windy road hugging the, the coast.
AS: Around the coast? Well, you almost certainly passed Priory School. Did you pass Sainsbury’s?
PL: Yes.
AS: Well it’s opposite Sainsbury’s. That’s Priory School, where they’ve just acquired two and a half million pounds to build a new science block and who have they invited to open it? [laughs] And what are they going to call it? The Spencer Science Centre. And the teachers who were trying to teach me science in the 1930s would turn in their graves at the thought of a science centre being named after me.
PL: Well, congratulations. What an accolade.
AS: Well, it’s rather nice isn’t it.
PL: It is. And your — ‘cause I think this is important as part of your story to include. So your school and your experience was used as a case study by the Open University.
AS: Yes. Shall I get the book and show you?
PL: I would love to see the book. Wait one minute though.
AS: Yes.
PL: I just want to, just to sort of wrap up the interview. There’s two questions I want to ask you. The first is, how your family fared during the war. I was interested to hear you say that they were based in Southampton.
AS: Yes.
PL: So did they — everybody stayed in Southampton did they, because —
AS: Yes. I think — The bombing raids on Southampton occurred just after I had left to join the Air Force. Well, there were several daylight raids but the night raids, the big night raids were just after. And after the first one, my father who was working there, continued there but he sent my mother up to Salisbury where we had — which is where I was born. Where we still had relatives. So she was there only during the first one. By the time I was coming home on Leave of course, they were both back in Southampton because the bombing raids were over. One of the things I noticed with my father, who was not a particularly demonstrative person, did come down to the station and see me off each time I went back from Leave and I’ve thought about that quite lot since then.
PL: Very touching.
AS: I didn’t have any brothers or sisters. I was a spoilt only child. [laughs]
PL: They must have been incredibly proud of you. So my last question, which is a question that we’re asked to ask all of our veterans and our volunteers who speak to us is, your feelings about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Would you like to make any comments about it.
AS: I was a bit surprised that when most of the Great War leaders were made Peers, Harris was not made a Peer. It didn’t worry me a great deal that there wasn’t a memorial. After all, a memorial is only a piece of stone or something with a list of names on. Part of the past. You know that was my only surprise really, that Harris was, didn’t receive the accolade that the other war leaders, Montgomery and so on received. But, Dresden of course, was held against Bomber Command but there was a lot of industry going on in Dresden. There’s a book by an academic at Exeter University, about Dresden, I think it’s out on loan to someone at the moment, but there’s a lot in there about all the industries going on at Dresden at the time. There we are.
PL: Well is there anything else, before we finish, that you’d like to record? About any of your experiences.
AS: No. I probably forgot one or two things on the way through but — [laughs]
PL: I’m sure it doesn’t matter. Well, I’d just like to say again a huge thank-you. That was an absolutely fascinating interview. Thank you very much indeed.
AS: Tell my wife that when she comes. [laughs]
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Spencer
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Sound
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Pending review
Identifier
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ASpencerAHG170227
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Pam Locker
Date
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2017-02-27
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01:11:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Spencer joined the Royal Air Force after leaving school. He began pilot training in Florida but then re-mustered as a navigator and trained in Pensacola. He completed two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He describes dropping target indicators and Window. He was based in Algiers for some time and describes life there. He was awarded the Légion d’Honneur for providing air support for the Resistance in Italy. After the war, he worked for BOAC and then as a teacher.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
United States
Algeria--Algiers
England--Lincolnshire
Florida--Miami
Florida--Pensacola
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo
Italy--Trieste
North Africa
Florida
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Cathy Brearley
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
16 OTU
97 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
C-47
crewing up
ground crew
Master Bomber
military ethos
mine laying
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
RAF Scampton
RAF Swinderby
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Woodhall Spa
Resistance
searchlight
target indicator
training
Ventura
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/630/30898/MPotterPL1878961-150914-22.2.jpg
e2eeba4d1af504d8eca58181780e4bed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Potter, Peter
P Potter
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Potter, P
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. Collection concerns Peter Potter, (1925 - 2019, 1876961 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 626 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, his logbook, memoirs and photographs
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Potter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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On TakeOff
Run up to warm engine - all final checks - intercom check to all crew
members, one to the other. Ground crew would make their way to the
end of the runway in use. We were lucky as the M.T. truck that delivered
us, took our ground crew to wave us off. They were always there,
together with other ground crew, girlfriends and others wanting to wish
us a good trip.
At the end of the runway, on our turn, we would run up the engines with
brakes full on, the tail would rise until the nose became lower than the
tail, then the brakes would be released and we were on our way.
On one very dark night, the aircraft ahead of us slewed when a tyre burst
just over halfway down the longest runway, luckily F2 had already
started to lift and Tom had been holding her down. We took off and
c1eared the other with plenty of space to spare, had we had some of the
other aircraft we had flown in, I have reservations in their ability to have
made it, as some needed much more distance to take off.
Every op. saw people alongside the perimeter track to wave us on, no
matter how harsh the weather they would brave it to wish us luck.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
On take off
Description
An account of the resource
Account of crew actions during take off and one particular time when aircraft ahead slewed when tire burst half way down the runway. Luckily they were able to get airborne and avoid the other aircraft.
Format
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One page printed document
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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MPotterPL1878961-150914-22
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
P Potter
Contributor
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David Bloomfield
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
crash
ground crew
ground personnel
military ethos
perimeter track
pilot
runway
service vehicle
take-off crash
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/630/30871/BPotterPLPotterPLv30001.1.jpg
803b7bc1508d33a36cefbd94cc134c1e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Potter, Peter
P Potter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Potter, P
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. Collection concerns Peter Potter, (1925 - 2019, 1876961 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 626 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, his logbook, memoirs and photographs
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Potter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AIRCREW
Air crew were treated differently from probably any other branch of the services
during the war. Training was extremely demanding but once qualified it was up to
the individual to discipline oneself and to keep up-to-date. Only when new
equipment became available was more training compulsory. However, if refusing
to fly then that airman would be humiliated. To be put on a charge meant you
would not be able to fly. On Bombers that would have meant one less crew.
Therefore, no-one was charged, if at all possible. Crews were so closely reliant on
one another that they would often not accept a stranger.
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Title
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Air crew
Description
An account of the resource
States aircrew were different and explains why he though this. Mentions training, attitude to discipline and that they were reliant on each other. Numbered '9-2'.
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One page printed document
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eng
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BPotterPLPotterPLv30001
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
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P Potter
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David Bloomfield
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
military discipline
military ethos
-
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Potter, Peter
P Potter
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Potter, P
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. Collection concerns Peter Potter, (1925 - 2019, 1876961 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 626 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, his logbook, memoirs and photographs
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Potter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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[underlined] Account of operations[/underlined]
Getting caught in searchlights was always bad. If this happened the usual evasive action was taken, plus Johnny Payne and I would throw out 'window'!
We had no idea if it helped but we evaded almost immediately every time.
Luck or not it seemed to work.
Air pressure at height reduces the higher you go and can cause some unusual
effects. Nitrogen bubbles in the blood can cause a sensation similar to
intoxication. Also releasing the ground pressure in a flask, particularly hot
beverages, causing the contents to expand and boil.
For example one thing I remember was a chap who had never flown at height
trying to eat a sandwich, breaking a tooth, and then to make matters worse
opening a flask at height and the contents (tea) boiling out scalding his hands
aud then freezing his gloves and hands solid. Frostbite caused him to drop
out sick for a time.
On night Ops we flew on the outside of the stream until 30 or 40 miles from
the target when we moved to the right track for bombing, trying to find a spot
with nobody above us. There is nothing more unsettling than being on the
point of dropping the bombs and seeing an aircraft immediately above you
with its bomb doors open with bombs still to be dropped. This happened
three times early in our tour. To see bombs falling in front and behind your
wing and tail tends to make you more cautious and think of a solution. We
flew on the edge and higher than the main stream which allowed us to dive
into the stream if attacked, which in fact got rid of the attacker every time.
On a cross country a Flying Fortress came close to us and indicated a race.
Tom opened up and we moved steadily ahead of him; After about 5 minutes
Tom throttled back. It came alongside again and to our surprise the pilot gave
us the ‘V’ sign and waved, then moved away. Two days later a jeep called at
the guardroom and left a 40 oz bottle of Bourbon 'for the guys who were flying
the Lancaster UMF with the naked babe on' three days before. How they
found out our station I have no idea. We never found where they were based.
Tom and I collected the bottle and gave each bod in the guardhouse a tot
before leaving. For several days we had personnel who didn't normally travel
around the station coming to look at the 'Babe' and the c.o. commented it was
probably in need of modification but as nobody had complained about it there
was no hurry. Later when there was a stand down, our crew and the ground
crew got together to finish the bottle off with a toast to all USA Forces,
especially USAAF.
On one other occasion, on our way home over the Kattegat, a twin engine
aircraft flew alongside us for 20 minutes, quite close, possibly a Mosquito but
no recognition was possible due to bad visibility. No attempt was made by it
that could have been considered hostile and we thought it was one of ours or
Swedish. One thing we did not do was fire, except in defence, which would
give away our position. I am convinced that some chaps fired at imaginary
aircraft and made themselves targets.
[page break]
Of all my ops the ones I remember more than the others were: Kiel Canal, Aire (abortive) when we hit downdraft of a cu-nim cloud and the plane was almost torn to pieces and Frankfurt and Saarbrucken when we landed with fun load of 62,000lbs with 3 engines. e also had a second dickie on board) (Aire Abortive is reported separately).
When we flew it was necessary to keep a sharp eye out for enemy aircraft, mostly at take-off and landing. Many of our aircraft were shot down for not being alert at an times. There was never a time you could relax, even in
England. We were an concerned about the possibility of becoming Prisoners
of War and found out as much as possible from evaders and escapees who
came to give us such information as they had, e.g. no labels or names.
numbers on clothing. I had a Swiss knife with a German inscription on it and
some German matches and watch I believe had been taken from a Prisoner of
War or perhaps a dead German. I also had a French pipe and pouch of French
tobacco which I did not use as I could not replace it and which by the time I
finished flying was nearly all dust.
Flying an aircraft which is open to the elements requires plenty of clothing. In
most bombers the wind could get into the fuselage from several points. To try
to keep warm was impossible and so we wore many layers of clothing, Le. one
pair of silk socks, 2 pairs of wool, 1 pair sea boot socks thigh length, silk Long
Johns and vest, silk balaclava and a wool one, 1 wool and 1 cotton vest, 1 RAF
shirt, wool Long Johns, I roll neck sweater, 1 8ft long silk scarf, 1 tunic,
trousers, flying inner suit, electric heating suit, Irving trousers and jacket or
Kapok electric buoyancy suit, silk gloves, wool mittens, electric inner gloves,
leather gauntlets, leather lined flying helmet, fur lined flying boots, Mae West
Parachute Harness. In our pockets we had a torch, all the personal items
mentioned, the escape kit which would have maps of the area, several
currencies, concentrated Horlicks tablets, water purifying tablets etc. in our
clothing were hidden knives, films, maps, compasses etc. There was also a
Thermos, sweets, concentrated caffeine tablets (Wakey, Wakey) which caused
eyes to become dry and sore on a long Op. We also had a parachute to carry.
Despite all the clothing and heating by the time we reached our operating
height the cold would be creeping in and within half-an-hour we would be
freezing. When the temperature was below minus 30 degrees or more the
pain began to penetrate every part of the body. It was not uncommon to suffer
frostbite even with the heating still on. In F2 we also had hot air pipes from
the engine exhausts which were pushed into the flies to give extra
warmth to the legs, but still could not dispel the cold.
Before an Op. every piece of equipment was checked. Nothing was left to
chance. We and our ground crew would be crawling all over the plane making
sure nothing was missed. The ground crew of F2 were, 1 believe, the best on
the station (Wickenby). Proof I believe is the fact that F2 was one of only 2
Lancaster's on the Squadron to survive the war.
To increase our chances, we spent time in the sections to keep up-to-date and
also in the Intelligence section, often helping there.
Briefing was conducted before each Op when we were given all information
known at the time about the target and defences and weather en route. Very
often both would be wrong but we expected that and took things as they came.
Winds, cloud cover etc were never left to chance.
[page break]
Interrogation on our return was more intense and I am afraid here we were less co-operative. After long hours frozen to the marrow all we wanted to do was get into bed to warm up after a hot meal (egg, chips and beans) and so we had nothing of note to report wherever possible, even if we had had a brush with a fighter. Any report unusual would mean an interminable questioning of every member of the crew when we were dead beat and just wanted to rest and relax. Only if something was completely new would we bother.
I flew with 3 other crews on Ops, one officially and the other 2 unofficially, due to chaps being unable to get back to the station, as previously mentioned. The official Op was with F/O Oram who was on his last Op and had lost both gunners when he had to ditch. The first was to Kiel and the others to the Ruhr.
Our ground crew were a grand bunch of chaps. The electrician, George Gant, lived not far from my parents. On every Op he would bring a 3/4 inch steel plate, heavily padded, for me to sit on 'for special protection'. Whenever there was a stand down we would take the ones 'with nothing to do to a show, cinema, dance or just a drink. There would sometimes be a dance on the station and so we would lend or procure SNCO or Officer's uniform for them if the dance was at one of those messes. Nobody, to my knowledge, ever complained as most crews did this. We always made sure to get all drinks when on the station and gave each one a pound to spend as he wished when off the station. Also, when any of them went on leave they were given a pound a day if single and if married double this with an extra pound for each child.
Each of us shared the cost but the Canucks insisted on paying twice the
amount of us natives. The Canadians also bought two rounds to our one, etc. Three of Us gave local farmers a hand when we could and in return we were given any farm produce they had. Over our time at Wickenby we were given chickens, ducks, beef, pork, eggs, milk, cheese, butter, bread, dripping, etc., and twice when we couldn't leave the station for a while a delivery was brought in by the local policeman.
Taking off from the station on a summer or autumn evening, turning towards the continent, meant I was often presented with some of the most beautiful sunsets I have ever seen and climbing often prolonged them. We flew into darkness with bright skies behind, night below and daylight above and the only real danger from the dark areas, which meant there was no time to linger on the exquisite sight behind us.
On each Op I took note of the route and times etc. of different dog legs so that I would be able to estimate a course to be taken if the Navigator and navigational equipment were damaged. My hope was that I could give the Skipper a course to the centre of the British landmass from wherever we might be at that time and that one of us would be able to check drift, wind speed and direction and knowing aircraft speed, roughly work out ETA over Britain. All details had to be kept in my head. We put it into practice only once as an experiment and arrived over Cromer instead of Lincs. From Kiel. I did navigate sometimes when on cross-countries and was OK but had all the aids which I could not rely on in an emergency.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Account of operations
Description
An account of the resource
Mention action on getting caught in searchlights, effects of altitude on aircrew, avoiding bombs from above, encounters with B-17 while on operations and getting a bottle of Bourbon from the American crew later. Mentions encounter with probable Mosquito, operation to Kiel Canal, friendly aircraft being attacked on return to base, conditions while flying, clothing, operating procedures, briefing and post flight debrief. Describes ground crew and work they did. Concludes with comments on summer operations and that he took notes on each operation of routes and times. Pages numbered. 29, 30, 31 and 2,3 and 4.
Format
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Three page printed document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BPotterPLPotterPLv4
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Kiel Canal
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Saarbrücken
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Creator
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P Potter
Contributor
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David Bloomfield
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
B-17
bombing
briefing
debriefing
ground crew
Lancaster
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Mosquito
nose art
RAF Wickenby
searchlight
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1163/11722/ATompsonA160125.2.mp3
3d7af9f302b744370c9112ad7ec336f6
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Title
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Tompson, Anthony
A Tompson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Anthony Tompson DFC ( - 2019, 1382325, 138477 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Tompson, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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NM: So, it’s, it’s Monday the 25th of January. My name is Nigel Moore. I’m with Flight Lieutenant Anthony Thompson DFC in his house in [deleted] in Hertfordshire and it’s 11 o’clock. So, would you like to start by telling us a little bit about your background, your childhood, your growing up before you joined the RAF?
AT: Well, I went to a secondary school and county school and took matric. And because I was more practical then theory and academic, I intended to look for an apprenticeship. And because I’d been interested in things electrical I joined the Post Office, Engineering Department. Sorry about my voice. I’m recovering from a bit of sickness. And I joined the Post Office and was with them for three or four years as an apprentice and I learned quite a lot. I learned about life for one thing and quite a lot about electricity. I went to in night school and day time study. And this was all immediately pre-war. Pre-war. And when war broke out or just before, the RAF were appealing for young men to come forward and volunteer for flight training. The idea appealed to me so with a bit of bending of the truth I managed to get in and was accepted for flight training. After the usual ground courses, I got sent over to Canada to learn to fly on a Tiger Moth. That went alright and I was eventually posted. Passed out and posted to another unit at Calgary in Alberta, where we were flying Airspeed Oxfords. And this was a much more sophisticated aeroplane and it was a bit beyond my abilities and I had trouble landing it. I was unable to judge height and I either landed six feet above the ground, so to speak, or six feet under it. Seldom on it. And I then, after a week or two of this the chief flying instructor took me on one side and kindly suggested perhaps this wasn’t the best profession for me, the best occupation for me and I’d like to think about something else. I could either drop the idea of aircrew altogether and look around for a ground job or I could carry on in a different aircraft, a different aircrew — I’m sorry. A different aircrew capacity. And after looking at the pros and cons we decided that navigation was something I could do quite well. So I was transferred to the Central Navigation School in Manitoba and did the course there which was run, just six months long. And I passed out fifth of about thirty students. I did quite well there and I loved it. And so I became what in those days was just called, sorry about my voice, in those days it was just called a navigator. These days I think it would have been [unclear] navigator or some other such thing. Anyway, from Canada I came back to the UK and did a few refresher courses. Mainly to relate what I’d learned at the environment of Canada to the rather different environment in Britain and went through to an OTU or Operational Training Unit where I joined a pilot and a gunner to form the nucleus of an aircrew. And we went on from there as a trio. Did quite well and went to a Conversion Unit where we picked up another four crew members. There we were, seven strong. A seven strong crew waiting for a posting which was eventually to a squadron in Suffolk at a place called Tuddenham. Which before the war had been a little village. A rural village. Mainly agricultural land. Grain growing country. And we joined this unit flying Stirling aircraft. The Stirling is one of the world’s forgotten aeroplanes. Designed immediately pre-war by Short’s. Short Armament of Belfast and, as I say drawing on their experience of designing the Empire Flying Boats, Catfoss and so on. The Stirling was built to the same standards of a flying boat and the characteristics of a flying duck. Had lots of room. Bitterly cold in the air. But there were some better low level performance than at height. They never really took off as one of the mass bombers that it was hoped but it was ideal for intruder work. And having formed this crew we went through one of the courses together and eventually passed out as an operational crew and were posted to 90 Squadron at, as I said, Tuddenham in Suffolk. And there we took part in various operations bombing strategic targets like railway junctions and things like marshalling yards and specific buildings. And later we got involved with the French underground, the Maquis and we were involved in supplying them. Dropping arms and ammunition to them in various locations. In view of the Stirling’s range and ability, in our case it was the foothills of the Alps and down near Lyon. We’d fly down there at low level to avoid detection as much as possible and to make air attack difficult and somewhere about a thousand feet or less. It was a strain on the two pilots and fairly, fairly easy for me because there were lots of opportunities for map reading. And we’d go down to the location which could be a clearing in a forest or a particular farm yard. Something of that kind. And we exchanged light signals with the people on the ground and having established identities we’d do a bombing. A bombing run and drop cylindrical containers of the required arms down by parachute. And there’s some lovely photographs of these things drifting down in the back of the, in the wake of the aircraft. Catching in the slipstream. Canopies opening. And down below they had the reception committee waiting and they were usually led by a British army officer. And these would be, these containers were would be collected and hidden and the parachute silk disposed of through domestic channels. And then we’d go back and wait for the next one. These were flights of about seven or eight hours. Rather tiring. We had two nights off afterwards. Two days and nights during which we could rest and recover and recreate as they say. So, we’d have a few beers in the mess and generally get ready for next time. That went on until just at the end of the war. But before then I’d finished my tour. A tour was thirty trips. I did those and then at the end of that time I went on to pass on what I’d gained in the way of knowledge and experience to people coming behind and became an instructor. That lasted for about six months. It was utterly boring. And I volunteered and was eventually managed to get out. Was posted to a Mosquito, to a Mosquito squadron of 8 Group. The Pathfinder group. And I was based at Wyton. Excuse me. In Huntingdonshire. And there we took part in [pause] nurse [pause] Sorry there was a pause for a slurp of water. On the squadron at Wyton I was part of what was known as the Light Night Striking Force. Light being reference to the weight of bombs you could carry. And I remember our first trip. We went to, had a crew of two, pilot and navigator and we went into briefing and expecting to be given an easy trip for the first, first time. Point of fact the target was Berlin which was rather, rather a shock. And that went off quite well. We found the abilities, the flying abilities of the Mosquito were more than a match for the enemy defences. And the worst thing you really could get was being latched on to by radar and tracked by night fighters. But we had enough speed to outfly them. A wonderful aeroplane. They were held together by glue. The wooden wonder. The wooden wonder it was called. And I finished the war on, did a second tour, thus completed a second tour on Mosquitoes and that was the end of our career really. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to stay in. The peacetime RAF were going to be, was going to be very different from the carefree, happy family environment of Bomber Command. And, excuse me, I decided to take my demob and to come out which I did. And then it was a question of making a living. And I got accepted for a job with British European Airways as it was then. And they had a contract with the Post Office, the British Post Office, to deliver mail to the remote locations in the Hebrides and the Scottish islands. And this involved a certain amount of navigation and I was accepted as the unit’s navigator. Navigator. I did a number of flights in helicopters delivering mail. Firstly, in East Anglia to practice and work out techniques. Then up in Scotland, around the islands. It was great fun. And there would be a reception committee. A postal van and a dour Scot in a Post Office uniform waiting to exchange mail. And this went on until, this went on for some months till suddenly the contract ended and it was not renewed. So after that I was again out of work and I joined, I saw an advertisement for somebody with roughly the qualifications I had to join de Havilland’s. Which I did. I applied and got the job. And this was in their guided weapons division. And I got into the world of rockets and things like that. Alright. Do you want to go on?
NM: Keep going. Yeah.
AT: And this was largely working with the Ministry of Supply to develop things like the Firestreak. The air to air missile. Finished up with Blue Streak which was Britain’s intercontinental, sorry about my voice, intercontinental ballistic missile. That involved a number, a number of trips to Australia. To Woomera. And I suppose that lasted for a year one way or the other. Eventually, eventually the time for retirement. Not something that really seemed to occur in RAF life but in civilian life it did. And after a period in London behind a desk, which I did not enjoy, I took retirement. And here I am. Reminiscing. Rambling on in a failing voice. I’m sorry about that. But over to you.
NM: Can I take you back to your time in 90 Squadron and Stirlings?
AT: Stirlings. Yes.
NM: You were doing mine laying, bombing, you were supplying the Resistance?
AT: Yes.
NM: Tell us about the, some mine laying trips and also the time that you were sort of ambushed with your Resistance supply dropping.
AT: Well yes. We, the mine laying trips were individual efforts. You went out as a single aircraft with an area to be mined. And because the Stirling had a considerable capacity, endurance, we really got the long trips. So, one of our favourite areas was the Eastern Mediterranean and across the Bay of Biscay to the estuary of the Garonne River which leads down to Bordeaux. The enemy was getting in supplies by sea via these routes and the British War Cabinet wanted it stopped. So we went around laying mines across the area and the enemy spent time trying to get rid of them. And there was a sort of a battle that went on. We laid more mines. They’d get rid of those. It occupied their, their forces and their strength and probably formed a useful diversion which was exploited by our side. Anyway, they were long trips and for a lot of the way, navigationally speaking they were boring trips. We set out with a forty five minute crossing. Crossing of the sea with nothing to see except stars and astro navigation. You felt sometimes you’d made the wrong choice. You’d like something more exciting. But we worked quite successfully at this and in due course became one of the senior crews on the squadron and carried on with this sort of work. You had a general scope of mine laying and Maquis supplying. Supplying the French and attacking a few strategic targets in between. And that’s how life went. The days were quite pleasant down in the agricultural area of Suffolk. If you weren’t flying you’d go down to the village for the evening. Drop into the local. And they were always very generous and looked after the Air Force and we’d have a few beers and a singsong with them. In the morning was a 9 o’clock briefing and then you walked up to your aeroplane. To your individual Stirling. Like luxury, 3 Group was. You had your own aircraft. You didn’t take one from the pool. And you’d fly your Stirling for an hour testing all the equipment. An air test it was called. You would fire the guns. Drop practice bombs on a range. Check all the radio equipment and make sure it was in first class order when you got back or reported defects to be put right during the afternoon. And then at about 5 o’clock you’d have an aircrew meal of something sustaining and then go off to the briefing. Had the final operational briefing and then straight out to the aeroplane and off. Come back, hopefully, some hours later. And there was always a member, it was rather like a family on the squadron and you sort of took interest in each other. And one of the questions they always got was, ‘Who’s not made it yet?’ ‘Who’s not made it back yet?’ Not so much what we have experienced and managed to overcome but how were other people getting on. And you could sometimes find an aircraft was lost and our last, last thoughts were people, you were friends. People you’d had a few drinks with a night or two before. Where were they? What were they doing? And life on the squadron was very much like that. And occasionally we had a virtual stand-down where you had a week’s notice that there would be no operations on a particular night and you planned for a party. You could invite the local big wigs in with their wives and have a formal dinner dance or you could forget about that and just let events take their course when things got a bit riotous. And that’s roughly what life was like. There were the afternoons. And when we had the morning air test and then lunch the afternoon was free until proper briefing time. We got on our bicycles, the rear gunner and I. He was much older than any of us. He was a country man. He was born in the, in Surrey and raised on a farm and joined the Brigade of Guards as a job. In the Blues and Royals. And he had a self-discipline, a self-discipline engendered by his experience in the army which more or less rubbed off on the rest of us and I’m sure improved our efficiency. Anyway, we’d go out in the country on our bicycles and sit down at the edge of a cornfield and just listen to the sounds of what was going on and just reminisce and chat and relax. That’s a great, a great foil for the activities that may be on the coming night. Anyway, I ramble on. Is there anything more I can tell you?
NM: Tell me about the operation with the Resistance supply that seemed to go wrong.
AT: Oh, the Resistance supply was planned that you would go to this point that was [pause] I’ll start again. The Resistance group was liaised, possibly, possibly led by a British Army officer who was seconded to them. Usually from the Royal Artillery. And they would, he would mastermind the operation and give information back to Britain by radio. Giving us information about what we, what we needed to know regarding dropping in a certain dropping area. The times, recognition signals and anything else of that nature. And on the basis of that information we planned the operation and organized the times, organized the aeroplane and fly off on the schedule we’d worked out. And fly, for security we’d fly at low level. Usually below a thousand feet. Map reading our way across Europe. And the crew we got to, with practice we got the crew very good at reporting what they could see. And I sat back with large scale maps of the area trying to correlate the information they were giving with the details on the map and that way we worked a good system. We could find our way around Europe pretty well. And having got down to the rough area we’d do a wide circuit flashing the recognised, the agreed recognition signal. And from the ground we’d get the matching signal back. The counterpart. When we were happy with each other’s identity they’d light a flare path. A long line of flares with a cross piece and this would give us a wind direction and the line they wished us to drop on. Then we’d do a straightforward bombing run on that. At the appropriate moment release the containers. The rear gunner would report they’d gone, He’d count the parachutes and say that eight containers had gone. We knew how many we were carrying so we knew there were no hang-ups. And that was it pretty well. When they’d all gone we could do another circuit and they would flash back a thanks signal and we’d wish them luck and fly back home. Long trips. Boring in some parts. But always susceptible. By this time the enemy knew we were, what we were doing. They knew roughly, they knew roughly where we were and they’d have night fighters up. Night fighters up on our route back. So there was a certain amount of activity on the aircraft keeping an eye open for them. So we got back to Britain, we’d flash again the recognition signal as you approached the British coast and the British defences would pass you on. Acknowledge your signal. Then you’d get in touch with base. And after that it was just a question of flying back to base and landing. Then it was debriefing. We had a truck waiting for the crew. For us. Hand the aircraft over to the ground, to the flight sergeant in charge of the ground crew. Any defect, any problem, any damage report to him. He’d get it sorted out. We’d get on board the truck, go down to intelligence and answer their questions. Tell them what we’d discovered. What we saw. This would go into a pool of information coming back from various aircraft in various bases that night and generally build up a picture of what was going on, on the other side for the operation, the operational command. Then off for an aircrew meal and to bed.
[recording paused]
AT: Eventually she got disenchanted with this and went in for nursing instead and was on the theatre team of the hospital. The Dunstable Hospital. So she’s kept an interest in us, Francis and me ever since this trouble started and we helped her. So that’s why she’s around.
NM: Ok. Can I take you back to the, there was one incident in the, when you were dropping supplies to the Resistance that seemed to go wrong?
AT: Occasionally units of the French units, the Resistance units were infiltrated by traitors and could be, could be taken over and used by Germans. By the enemy. And it happened to us once. We carried on with our normal routine and the answers came back very, very swiftly and pat. And we began to feel, to get that feeling that something wasn’t quite right. And you couldn’t do anything about it except be doubly alert and sure enough when we were doing our bombing, our run to drop the containers with the aircraft flaps out we were going along, barely airborne, as low as we could we had a great attack from the ground. As I say the height we flew precluded air attack or fighter attack but left us vulnerable to the ground and they had, they attacked with all sorts of gunfire. And we were, there were a few minor injuries. Bits of shrapnel flying around. The aircraft had some damage. And we got out as soon as we could and got home and lucky to get there I suppose. But that was the sort of excitement that one had on those in those days. You just used your training and your initiative to pick up on those things and cope with the situation. Over to you.
NM: There was another occasion when you were attacked and lost part of your wing and had to resort to astro navigation to get back was it? Can you tell us about that trip?
AT: Navigation. What was the navigation?
NM: You were, you were attacked and lost part of a wing and you carried on with the operation and had to get back using astro navigation.
AT: That’s right.
NM: Tell us. Tell us a bit about that trip.
AT: Well the aircraft was controllable. The performance was debased but we managed to get, to keep it airborne. We, the pilot and the co-pilot. And the flight engineer was happy with the situation. And we had to rely always on an alternative. We couldn’t quite follow the route home that we’d planned from landmark to landmark. So we had to use astro navigation which meant flying steadily for two minutes I think it was. The sextant taking our star shots with us, or a number of star shots with the sextant. Now, the sextant worked with a chamber inside it which contained a liquid which under pressure with a capsule was pressurised, could be pressurized by taking a screw out a screw and this caused a bubble to form. And the idea was it had bubbles like a spirit level. Had to be kept in by moving a sextant and it kept in the middle of this chamber. And this was illuminated dimly as a light coloured ring. And your, the image of the star you were using appeared in the, within that frame according to the way you were holding the sextant and directing it. And you worked the, altered the positions, the latitude of the aircraft until the image appeared in the centre of the bubble. Then you carried on gradually coming back. Anyway, it was a tedious business and it went on for two minutes and that’s a very long time when you’re holding a sextant. Trying to balance. And at the end you had a set of readings which, with which you went in the air almanac which was really a list of readings that should be obtained if you are where you hope to be. Various places along, along the route. And you plotted. Your reading could be converted into what was called a position line. A bearing along, somewhere along which you were at the time and you’d reduce it to that. Plot that on the chart and then try and find another. Another position line. Either from a different star or from ground observation which would intersect the first as closely as possible to a right angle. You get a sharp cross. And that was your position at that time. Astro navigation was a tedious business and not popular but it was there and it couldn’t be interfered with so something you fell back on. And on this occasion we managed to fall back on it. And I can’t remember the details now but no doubt we got information which was sufficient. Sufficient for the purpose because here I am.
NM: So how was the aircraft damaged on that occasion? Was it ground fire? Flak? Or was it a night fighter?
AT: I think it was ground fire. I don’t recall it very clearly. I think it was ground fire. Flying at low level it wasn’t, it wasn’t difficult for the enemy to work out the direction you were, in which you were flying and to alert gun positions further along that route. And with four radial engines, seven hundred and fifty horsepower each blasting out the exhaust they could very quickly latch on to hearing you and plot you and pick you up. And at low level they’d got a chance of hitting you.
NM: There was another occasion you had a double engine failure on take-off with a crash landing.
AT: That’s right. That was on a Stirling. That was something that could happen and [pause] I think Colin was the pilot. Sergeant pilot. He was very quick. He and the flight engineer recognised this and alerted everybody to the situation. We all got in the crash positions where if the aircraft crumbled around us we’d all stand a chance of surviving. I know mine was back in, in between the spars. The Stirling wing was a massive girder which passed from one wing tip through the fuselage to the other wing tip and there were two four and a half girders with about four or five feet between them and my crash position was in between the two. I remember scrambling down there, lodging myself in firmly. And as for the Stirling’s nose the bomb aiming panel was cut out from the other side of the nose which left it like a scoop. And as the aircraft hit the ground this scoop was bringing up stones and soil and so on. Piling back into the fuselage. I looked at this and wondered if it was going to, whether it would stop before I had to get out or whether I’d have to cope with that as well. Fortunately it stopped but that was another interesting thing. They found afterwards there was a design fault somewhere in the system which caused the engine failure. I’m casting my eye around. Somewhere around this room maybe, or this [unclear] is my logbook.
NM: We can, we can look at that after.
AT: I’m sorry?
NM: We can look at that afterwards.
AT: Yes. I was wondering if it contained any details. Never mind.
NM: We can pick that up. Yeah. Now, you, you took part in an operation on, on D-Day.
AT: Sorry?
NM: You took part in an operation on D-Day itself, didn’t you?
AT: Yes. It was obvious from general events that D-Day was coming and we had one or two practices. And then the whole environment on the squadron changed. Everybody was kept on camp. Nobody could go off into the local town and nobody went off on leave. We were kept. Locked down as it were. And you had an aircrew meal which usually contained an egg in some form. This took place early in the afternoon I remember. At the usual time. And it was obvious to us what was going to happen. Anybody with any intelligence knew we’d been waiting for this and this was it. And we were told to report to the briefing room ready to go. Complete in flying clothing. All equipment. Which was unusual. Usual that we changed clothing after briefing but not on this occasion which added to our certainty that this was it. And from briefing we got on to enter the crew bus. Straight out to the aircraft. No stopping. No diversions. No possibility of informational leaks from one place to another. Service police were around and watching. And straight into the aircraft. And then it was normal procedure. And we flew, according to instructions, at low level. Down across the UK. I think we got to [pause] I’m not sure if it was Beachy Head. Somewhere on the, some location on the south coast. And they took off across, took off from the aircraft. Set course across the channel and there was quite a battle. I remember I saw quite a lot of activity down below and we were dropping supplies to the army. We got to the dropping zone. Went through, went through the motions. Dropped the containers and got out again as fast as we could. We got back to the UK, landed at base. Again, heavy security and a very truncated debriefing. Normally that went on for some time to get as much information as possible about enemy dispositions and movements on the other side. On this occasion there was none of that. A question of — you’re back, anything vital to report? Ok. Back to bed. You may be wanted. Straight to bed. And ready to be called out maybe an hour later depending on how things went. Fortunately we weren’t called and in the morning of course on the news was all of the invasion. The invasion is on. And the, the [public knew?] about as much as we did. What you do, the policy of the security is what you don’t know you can’t reveal. So we weren’t told anymore officially than we had to know. Yeah. There afterwards a question of operational requirements. Dropping further supplies if necessary. A bit of strategic bombing if it was needed. Knock out that rail junction or a road junction in advance of the army.
NM: And part of your drops on D-Day.
AT: Sorry?
NM: Part of the drops you did on D-Day itself were a lot of Window and also the Rupert dummies.
AT: That’s right. Thank you for reminding me now. Yes. Ruperts were fun. They were about five feet high I suppose. Cut out of a figure with a parachute and fireworks were verey cartridges that went off on landing. Pressure switch. And simulated the sort of signal that you would expect from an assembly rallying point. And the dummies going down, they attracted enemy fire. I can’t remember much else about them. I know we had one in the briefing room and it was used as a demonstration model of what was going to happen. Yes. Ruperts. I don’t know why they were called Rupert. Presumably it’s the designer or somebody high up had that name. And D-Day was quite striking. You could see the landing craft making their way across The Channel and it wasn’t, wasn’t terribly smooth. We thought of all those seasick soldiers who would have to carry on. And we were at low level. I can’t, I don’t remember now about the ground operations on the beaches. I think we were in advance of that. I think we were preparing for it but didn’t actually see it. But the, the sight of those landing craft was quite something. We’d seem them before on practice runs. Usually off the, somewhere off Weymouth. That area. I recognised the vessel but they were having a very rough time. I gather there was a chance the whole operation would be postponed because of bad weather but that would have been an enormous thing. An enormous task to undertake. I think they decided to, obviously they decided to go. Anyway, we felt we were safe and snug in our aircraft and thankful we weren’t down below. And straight back to base afterwards after having done what we had to do. Straight back to base by the shortest route. Refuel. Reload. And get to my debriefing. Get to bed in case you were wanted again. In case things on the ground over there took a turn for the worse and we were needed to urgently resupply. So, get what rest you can. Which we did. But we were not called. Things went as required, I think.
[pause]
NM: So that was the end of your first tour.
AT: Well yes.
NM: How did you adapt to becoming an instructor after the operational side of life?
AT: To begin with you were hesitant. As I am now. Which wasn’t very impressive. But eventually you got used to it. You got the patter. You knew the syllabus you were trying to follow. You knew how to liaise with people. You went through each student you were allocated. Three or four students to look after. And you went through their practice flights in fine detail. See where they had made a mistake or a wrong decision and you go through with them after like a tutor. You were a tutor. And we’d get used to that after a few episodes and I didn’t enjoy it very much. It was nice I suppose knowing that you would go back to a comfortable bed. Wouldn’t be roused in the middle of the night to go and do an air sea rescue. That was another feature. If somebody ditched, went down in The Channel, efforts were made to get them back. Firstly, I think it sounds a bit callous but I think firstly to prevent them falling into enemy hands and being interrogated by all the devious means the enemy was using. Drugs mainly. And [pause] what led me into this? Yeah. So this was one of the features of going to bed and getting as much rest as you could because it was one of the things you could get called out for. We were one night, somewhere up on the North Sea and we never found anything. We were given a box, an area to cover. When you covered it you’d have a brief look again and then come back. It appears to me as something I get right.
[recording paused]
NM: So, after six months instructing you joined Mosquito 162 [sic] Squadron.
AT: That’s right.
NM: Led by Ivor Broom.
AT: That’s right.
NM: Tell me about life on that squadron.
AT: Well, that was quite a different environment. First of all, on a Stirling squadron if you were lucky you had to wait for an, wait for an aircraft. You weren’t allocated your own aircraft until one became available. And this might be several, several weeks away. But I turned up at 163 and they said, ‘Right. Your aircraft is R for Roger. Go and have a look at it and meet the ground staff,’ which was rather a shock. I didn’t expect anything as fast as that but in 8 Group things moved quickly. Partly because it was led by a dynamic New Zealander and this group philosophy sort of filtered down to the squadrons. And yeah, we took our first flight in the aircraft and I remember, I remember that they too, the navigator was the bomb aimer as well in the Mosquito. You had to leave your seat and go and lie down prone beside the pilot. This meant that the oxygen pipe had to be long enough to put out a supply in the new position. It had to be fairly long. And I remember that during the practice, during the operation, the first operation it wasn’t long enough. There was no way it could get down there. It was one thing we failed to check during the air test. It was a warning — never assume anything. Check. Always check everything for yourself. And, yeah I remember the thrill of that first Berlin. That was always the big one. The Mosquito wasn’t so big. It could go high up. Beyond, beyond a lot of the ground defences. Most of them. And the horror of going down to the nose, finding the oxygen pipe wasn’t long enough at twenty five thousand feet. So I took two or three deep breaths, I remember. Filled my lungs with oxygen as far as I could and went down and did the bombing run. That was a salutary lesson. Never assume that things will be what you expect them to be. And [pause] I was trying to think if there was anything else. Anything else notable on that trip. I haven’t read my notes. Was there anything you want to mention?
NM: There was another one of these trips you were attacked by a night fighter.
AT: Oh yes. This happened suddenly. Without warning obviously and I was sitting around. The pilot was very, very good. Very skilled. And he took evasive action and I had to tell him which way to turn and what action to take. I was sitting in my usual position with my head screwed around so I could see backwards. You could see lines of tracer bullets from an enemy passing by. Get an idea where he was and transferred this information into suggestions to the pilot that he might fly at this location or dive or climb or take some manoeuvre to throw the enemy off. And this seemed to work. All of these ideas you practised during the daily air test. Every day do an air test during the morning with the Mosquitoes up in The Wash. Over the sea. This voice is ridiculous.
[pause]
[recording paused]
AT: Ok. Over to you again.
NM: So, in total you went to Berlin twelve times.
AT: Twelve times, that’s right.
NM: What about other targets?
AT: Well yes, usually of tactical importance. Railway crossings, railway junctions, road junctions. I think we went to one or two docks. Ports. Oh, by this time the invasion was on. There was a question of disrupting enemy communications and their ability to move materials and men in numbers around north west, North Western Europe.
NM: Were there any particular operations that stand out in your second tour?
[pause]
AT: This distance in time it’s hard to remember.
NM: So, in 1945 you were awarded the DFC.
AT: Yes.
NM: How did you feel about that?
AT: I was chuffed of course. Very pleased. Not sure I really deserved it but the CO seemed to think so. Of course it cost me a lot of money in beer. In beer in the mess that night. And a trip to the Palace to receive it. It would have been the king but the king was ill with lung cancer and it was [unclear]and the thing about it that sticks in my mind is quite stupid. He was wearing white knitted gloves. Machine knitted. He shook hands with everybody but he was wearing white gloves. And we of course had none. And I thought, why? I recognise the importance but why does he have to wear gloves at all? It can’t be that we would contaminate him in some way. Anyway, perhaps its protocol. And it was stolen later. It was silver. Made of silver of course and at this time there was an interest in silver as an important resource for the country. And people were trotting off to the jewellers with the silver cutlery or silver tankards and things. And about this time the house that we owned in Harpenden was intruded, burgled. And my logbook went. And the DFC, and a few other bits and pieces. The logbook turned up later on a bookstall. I remember Toc H, the charity. They ran a Saturday morning bookstall in Harpenden outside the George Hotel. And one of our friends was passing by one day and he had a habit of stopping to see what there was there and he saw this unusual book. Had a look. Saw whose it was. Recognised it as mine and he bought it. That’s how I got it back. But I never saw, never saw the DFC again. For ceremonial purposes I got a replica which I still have and when it was necessary to wear the full medal I wore the replica [pause] and nobody knew.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
NM: So, did you stay in touch with the RAF after the war in terms of squadron reunions or Associations?
AT: I have been, yes. I joined the local branch of the Royal Air Force Association. I joined the Royal Air Force, I joined the Association as a life member. Attached to the local branch I obviously knew that it had disbanded some years later. Well I’m now attached to a head office role and I get the magazine. “Air Mail” they call it. And notices of events. Some of which I go to. But I think one or two old colleagues are still around. We’re of an age now when we’re dropping off one by one. Falling off the perch as we used to say. And I don’t know of any of my crew that are left. Mosquito pilot’s gone. I know all of the Stirling crew are gone. Canadians are gone. The rear gunner’s gone. I don’t know how I’m carrying on really. I don’t know how. I’ve been well looked after I guess. Anyway, the Royal Air Force Association was open to all ranks and the local branch was a bit of a, a bit of a disappointment. They held its meetings in the function room of the local pub and that was a recipe for disaster. It became a, really what they used to call a boozy evening. Didn’t achieve very much. The Association as such. It still organises a number of interesting events. Some of which include Runnymede where there’s a memorial. But gradually memories are going. Individuals are going. Individually, I see it as an organisation which will eventually join forces with the British Legion and any celebrations will be in November. And I think it is going to come. At the moment we stagger on from event to event. A new Bomber Command Memorial. The Spire. A new enthusiasm. I’ve not been to see it. I probably won’t go now. I found it sensible to give up motoring when I had my little troubles. I realised that in any accident I was involved in which would include the police they’d look at my medical records and say, ‘Oh yes sir, I see sir. Yes sir. Quite so’ And I’d get the blame whether I was guilty as it were or not. So rather than go through that and the tedium of insurance compensation which costs a lot I decided to give up. And what I saved in tax, fuel and so on pays for taxis as we need them. And my family are very good. They’re all motorists so I’ve only to say I want to go to so and so and I have two or three offers. So we manage quite well without. But what led into that?
NM: When you look back on your time in Bomber Command.
AT: Yeah.
NM: What are your main reflections?
AT: In wartime of course it was one big happy family really. Matter of fact it’s comradeship. Interest and concern really for other people. Joe Bloggs. Did Joe Bloggs get back? And the sadness if the answer was no and you would sit back and get a bit reflective. What happened to them all? It was like there was sort of a cosy feeling when you went in the mess. Everybody was like a brother. On the operational side everything that was, could be done to safeguard the crews was done. It was rather, there was no great glaring gap. No great, sort of, why didn’t they do this or do that? And I think Bomber Command was good one to be in. It didn’t have the charisma of Fighter Command or the sheer boredom of Coastal Command.
NM: And how do you think Bomber Command has been recognised since the war?
AT: Well we’ve now got the Spire. And Runnymede. But it wasn’t very much after the war. We had the odd reunion. Gradually in time, you get individuals went and [unclear] the impetus was lost. It wasn’t till this last few years we got the Memorial at Runnymede that people have taken a new interest. It became a way of life really. In Fighter Command you were available and could be called on at very short notice. At Bomber Command it was more quietly planning. You had a routine.
[recording paused]
AT: There were times when you’ve been on leave. Maybe had ten days leave and days eight, nine and ten you wondered what to do with yourself. People, chaps you knew in civilian life were away in the forces somewhere. It got very boring. Relatives loved having you around. You had to consider that. But generally speaking you felt more at home in the Air Force than you did at home. [unclear] but it’s all different now I guess.
[recording paused]
AT: Various jobs after the war. I think the pilot, Colin, went back to, I think he was a marine draughtsman. He went back to that. Ronald, Ron the rear gunner, the ex-guardsman, went back to training police horses. The bomb aimer, a Canadian, went back home. Took a degree at the University at Guelph in Ontario and became a, he started breeding horses, [unclear] horses. Sadly he died. I went to stay with him once at a rackety farm. Farm life. And we had a wild week in Ontario. People are not so confined to activities over there or in Australia with the use of a gun. Over here it’s something that immediately attracts attention. The police want to know if you’ve got one but out there nobody seemed to bother.
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Interview with Anthony Tompson
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Nigel Moore
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATompsonA160125
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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01:16:04 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Anthony Tompson worked as an engineer for the Post Office before he volunteered for the Air Force. While training as a pilot in Canada it was discovered he had a difficulty with perception and he trained instead as a navigator. On return to the Great Britain he was posted to 90 Squadron at RAF Tuddenham. Here the crew undertook a number of operations including several drops to Resistance groups in France. He describes one occasion when the Resistance group had been infiltrated and they came under attack from ground fire. After his tour he became an instructor but wanted to return to the excitement of operational flying. He was posted to 163 Squadron at RAF Wyton flying Mosquitos. Expecting that their first operation with the new squadron might be a gentle one he was rather surprised to find his first operation with the new squadron was to Berlin. He took part in the last Bomber Command operation of WW2 on 2nd May 1945.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1945
163 Squadron
8 Group
90 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
military ethos
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Normandy deception operations (5/6 June 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Wyton
Resistance
Stirling
take-off crash
Tiger Moth
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/PKirbyH1511.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/AKirbyH150710.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kirby, H
Requires
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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NM: So, this is a recording from Harold Kirby in Pinner, my name is Nigel Moore doing the interview, and this interview is taking place on July the 10th at Mr Kirby’s home in Pinner. So, Mr Kirby, thanks for doing this, and can you tell me something about your life growing up and life before the RAF?
HK: Yes, I’m, I was born in Kilburn, and my parents moved out to Kingsbury when I was eight years old, and I went to Kingsbury County School there. At the time we moved, 1931, it was all countrified there and we had to walk across fields to Burnt Oak to, for shopping, but soon got built up. So that was my early days, and then I got married after the war and lived in Kingsbury for a while until we moved out to Pinner in 1960, that’s right.
NM: So, what about your upbringing and childhood and pre-service life as a youth?
HK: I was not very outgoing at the time, but I had a special friend, Tony, who was more outgoing and he involved me in lots of activities, but I can’t say that I did very much exciting at those days, although we did used to cycle ‘round quite a lot, both of us. So, that was, up to the war, really. [Pause] and, certainly –
NM: Okay. How did you come to join the RAF?
HK: Ah, well, I, my two school friends and myself wanted to fly with the RAF, they were accepted but I was turned down on medical grounds, they became navigators and went off, and then I was called up in, ah, August 1942, and was first, after the initial square-bashing, went to, was posted to Halton, to train as a flight mechanic, one of the first inputs of conscripts to be trained at Halton, yeah. Well, after I’d passed out as a flight mechanic, I had sufficient marks to go straight on to do a fitter’s airframe course, also at Halton, and during the time there, I, we were asked if we would volunteer to become flight engineers, they were getting a bit short, which I did, passed the medical that time, and, but initially, I was posted as a fitter to 460 Squadron, which was at Binbrook, although initially, we and three others went to place called Brayton and found that the 460 Squadron had moved to Binbrook two weeks earlier [slight laugh] but eventually, we were taken there over, stayed there overnight and then taken to Binbrook, and I was there for a bit, six months, mainly repairing aircraft, until I got a call to go to the Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer. I, after I’d passed out from there, I was posted to heavy conversion unit at [pause] Winthorpe and I was, I crewed up with an otherwise all-Australian crew, and one thing that happened there was – this was on Stirlings – on the first pilot’s [pause] flight by himself without an instructor, we couldn’t get the wheels down, and it was my job to wind them down, which I did successfully, but the port undercarriage wouldn’t lock, so we were asked to fly to Woodbridge, you heard of it? It was placed where they had especially long, long runways and also facilities for dealing with crashed aircraft. Well, we duly got, would crashed, Woodbridge, crashed, ah, landed, but the port undercarriage gave way and we spun ‘round, no-one was hurt, and the instructor came down immediately and made my pilot fly back. Other than that, that, everything was okay, and we went to the Lancaster flying school, and eventually landed up at 467 Squadron, which was then at Wadd – Waddington. The, ah, yes, on the first operation, we were coming back, and the rear gunner suddenly shouted ‘Corkscrew!’, and the pilot immediately took action, dived, and a twin-engined aircraft overtook us and flew off in the distance, we didn’t see it again, but he initially, he shot at us, and a bullet went through the rear gunner’s turret and his clothing and cut off his heating supply and he was very aggrieved about that because it got a bit cold! [slight laugh] Anyway, we got back safely. Then, on the [pause] yes, the eleventh operation, it was a daylight one at Trossy Saint Maximin, the, it was a storage site for V1s, and we had done the bombing round and the mid upper shouted, ‘There’s a Lanc above us just opened his bomb doors!’ Before we could do anything, we heard two thumps, one was louder than the other, and a bomb went through the port wing, took away the undercarriage and the – shut off the engine, so I, well, I, I had to keep a look-out because the, I’m sure the wing was mov – waving more than it should do, anyway, we, with three engines, we got left behind. At one stage, this was over France, the rear gunner said ‘There’s two single-engined aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter,’ he said to the upper gunner, ‘I’ll take the first, you take the second,’ but seconds later, which seemed hours, he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires,’ [slight laugh] and one of them escorted us back to the coast and we decided, or at least the pilot decided, to land at Wittering, which, at that time, had a grass runway, and we’d landed there and he got told off for making a big groove in their run – runway. So, but that was the, really, the main thing that happened there. Then, on the sixteenth operation, or after the sixteenth operation, we were posted to 97 Squadron, the Pathfinder Squadron. After the war, I had some correspondence from a pilot’s son, this was well after the war, and in it was a cutting from a newspaper which a pilot had a long [?] talk with a reporter, and he said then, whether it was true or not, that he actually volunteered to become Pathfinders because of the increase in pay, but I don’t know if that’s true or not, but all the crew joined him and we went on to the 97 Squadron, but nothing really much happened there, we were quite successful in getting back what with [?] the time, and in the end we managed forty-four operations altogether. [Pause] Well, after the war finished, we were sent on end-of-tour leave because we’d practically finished the second tour, and, but the rest of the crew were all recalled before I was, to go off back to Australia, so I never really had a chance to say a proper goodbye, but after that [unclear], they were, we were given opportunities to choose what we wanted to do; I chose a radar mechanic’s course because it was a nice long one and sounded interesting, that was at Yatesbury, and I eventually completed the course, was posted to West Ruislip, where I was put in an office and didn’t any, do any radar mechanicking! [laughs] And, but I was fortunate that I was able to live out, live at home, ‘cause my parents at Kingsbury, and commuted until I got my demob, which was six weeks or so later, I’m not sure of the actual date, and so, that is my war service.
NM: Okay, can I take you back to your days in Halton?
HK: Yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about your days training as a fitter.
HK: Well, we were lost in [?], up the hill on one side of the main road, and every morning, we walked down, or marched down, to the, the workshops on the other side of the main road. That, that was about all, except that there was one amusing instance; because there, there were no youngsters there at the time, they had some drums which they thought could be used, and they asked for volunteers to train as, as drummers to help us down the march. It, they got instructions, that went off quite reasonably until the instructor thought, the, the bandmaster or whoever it was, thought we could practise by ourselves. Now, one of the chaps was actually a drummer in a small group, and he decided to invent a, a rhythm, which wasn’t the one that we were taught, and it went – oh, how did it go? Anyway, it was the first time that we did it, we, it was a conga rhythm [laughs], I think it’s the first and only time that a squad’s been conga’d down to the workshops! [laughs] But, apart from that, Halton was quite reasonably enjoyable.
NM: And was it while you were at Halton, or was it while you were at Binbrook on 460 Squadron, that you volunteered to become a flight engineer?
HK: It was while we were at Halton we were asked if we would volunteer, yes.
NM: So you first of all went off to Binbrook on 460 Squadron?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You first of all went to 460 Squadron?
HK: 460 Squadron, yeah.
NM: At Binbrook. Tell me a little bit about, about Binbrook.
HK: Well, then again, it was for, fortunately a, a peacetime station, so we were quite comfortably billeted. Well, that, that, of course, was an Australian squadron as well, so I, I did quite well in knowing the Australians. Each morning, went to the hangars and carried out any repairs and inspections that were necessary, quite enjoyed that, really. Yes, there was a sergeant there, Australian sergeant, apparently he was colour blind, and he, he was telling me that initially, he, he was asked to put camouflage on an aircraft, and when his instructor saw it, he said ‘If you could see that as I could see it, you’d have a fit!’ [Laughs] Yeah, but that, that, sorry, he was quite, quite a good chap [unclear], but –
NM: So, you went from Binbrook to Saint Athans to train -
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: As a flight engineer.
HK: That’s right.
NM: Describe your training.
HK: I, actually, initially, there are few of us, instead of given instructions on a Lancaster, we were started to give us instructions on a York aircraft, but I think it was decided that that sort of job would be given to people who’d already been flying, so we then transferred and did the rest of the course on, on Lancasters. It was [pause] well, was quite enjoyable, I can’t say that there were any real troubles there. [Pause] I’m sorry, I –
NM: That’s fine, that’s okay.
HK: Unless there’s something specific, it’s difficult to remember.
NM: Right, okay, no, that’s absolutely fine, that’s fine. And you, how long did you spend in Saint Athan training, and what type of year was it, and time of year?
HK: It was in December, it would have been ’43, and we were there ‘til about May, I think, in ’44, and then we went to, as I said, to train, initially on Stirlings, before going onto Lancasters and then the squadron.
NM: So you crewed up at the OCU at Winthorpe, did you say?
HK: Yes.
NM: How did the crewing up process go? How did you end up with the crew that you ended up with?
HK: Well, it was just the usual way, and, in the RAF, from, we were in a large hall, and Bill Ryan, the, came up to me and said, would I like to join his crew? And he came, well, then, he introduced, introduced me to the rest, and we got on quite well.
NM: So you were the last to join the crew, were you?
HK: Yes.
NM: And were they an all-Australian crew?
HK: All-Australian, yeah.
NM: And you were the only Englishman there?
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: So, why do you think he asked you? Why do you think he asked you?
HK: I have no idea! [laughs] Perhaps I was the last one, I don’t know, but we got on quite well, actually. I was the youngest, Bill Ryan was twenty-eight, I think. [Pause] The [pause] bomb aimer came from Queensland, he was about thirty-three, wireless operator was not much older than I was, I, I did have pictures of them [sound of leafing through pages].
NM: We can come onto that afterwards, if you want.
HK: Afterwards, yeah. [leafing sounds continue] Give some names.
NM: Let’s go through their names on the record and we can look at the photographs after the interview.
HK: Yeah, right.
NM: So, you go through the names.
HK: Hmm, yes.
NM: Talk, go through the names and describe the names.
HK: Yes, well, there was Bill Ryan, Les Sabine, the navigator, he came from New South Wales, as did Johnny Nichols, the wireless operator, and Jim McPhee was bomb aimer, Norm Johnstone, the mid upper gunner, and myself, and then there was Jim Newing, but we always called him Bert so we didn’t get mixed up with Jim McPhee, the bomb aimer, he was the rear gunner, he came from Perth in western Australia, and, although I lost touch with the crew after the war, some fifty years later, I and my wife went to Perth, and I looked up the telephone directory, there was H.W. Newing, which was his name, and the telephone, and I rang up on the off chance and said ‘Have you ever been to England?’ and he said ‘Yes, who’s speaking?’ I said ‘Harold Kirby’ and he immediately said ‘Oh, our flight engineer!’ [Slight laugh] And he was able to come to the hotel and we had quite a long chat, unfortunately, we had to go off the following day, but by then, I had his address and telephone number, and we went back to Perth all summer, few years later, and he came and took us to meet his wife and have lunch, and so, that, that was very nice. Unfortunately, he’s passed away.
NM: Okay, sad to hear that. So, you went to Lancaster flying school, you say, after you, your?
HK: Yes, at Syerston, that was.
NM: That was, okay, at Syerston. And how long were you there for?
HK: Oh, just a matter of a week or so, I think. I don’t, I can’t remember that.
NM: So, you then joined 467 Squadron at Waddington?
HK: That’s right.
NM: Tell me about squadron life in 467, what was that like?
HK: What was that like? I think I was glad I’d been to 460 Squadron and got used to a lot of the Australians, so it didn’t come as a bit of a shock, but [pause] apart from those two instances that I mentioned, I think we were quite fortunate, getting away unscathed.
NM: So, can you describe general operations, then, on 467 at Waddington?
HK: Well, I, the pilot and navigator, this before an operation, they had a, an initial briefing, and then after that, the rest of the crew joined them to have a general briefing. We were – then we all had to get ready for going off, we had a, a meal beforehand. Coming back, we were debriefed, and contrary to, contrary to what other, I’ve read about other squadrons, we never got rum or anything like that, we just got coffee, and then we went to bed and waited for the next operation. I do remember that, on one occasion, I slept for about eighteen hours non-stop, virtually, that was after two or three night operations on the trot.
NM: So, when you found you were being posted to Pathfinders at –
HK: Yes.
NM: - Coningsby, at 97 Squadron, what was your feeling?
HK: Really, nothing much, we, I didn’t know much about them, and I just wanted to keep with the rest of the crew, suppose.
NM: So, was – how did Coningsby and the Pathfinders differ from a main force station at Waddington and 467?
HK: I can’t say that it was terribly different, different. We were quite fortunate in, again, that, as Waddington was, and Binbrook beforehand and then Coningsby, they were all peacetime stations and we were very comfortably housed, not like some squadrons who had to cope with a lot of mud [slight laugh]! Oh, yes, at Coningsby, we had to be capable of taking over some of the other tasks, such as, I was asked to keep the aircraft on the straight and level for a while, presumably in case the pilot couldn’t hold it, which, that was what I did, although the rear gunner said it was more like a switchback than straight and level [slight laugh]! Then I had to learn the Morse code and do some gunnery practice, and also bomb aiming, so that, that was quite a change. In fact, towards the end of the war, the normal bomb aimer went and helped the navigator with the screens that they had then, and I did the bomb aiming, so it, that was a change. [Pause] Can’t say that there’s much more to add.
NM: So the extra training that you had, then, for, for flying training for straight and level flying and for gunnery and Morse code and bomb aiming, what, how did those extra training comes about?
HK: I remember the bomb, bomb aiming, there was a sort of a, a map that sort of moved on the floor and we were practising sort of with the bomb sights, and then also, in, there was a bombing range at Wainfleet in the Wash, I think I did a, a few goes at that, and then as far as gunnery, we dropped a flare in the water and I was in the nose turret and had a go and see if I could shoot that, and so [pause] I do remember once, I think this was at, at Waddington, for some reason, the brakes failed as we were taxiing ‘round, and the pilot was able to steer by controlling the engines. The normal practice when you start off is to keep the brakes on and push the throttle forward to get maximum speed, power, and then suddenly take the brakes off and shoot off. Well, this time, we had no time to do that, we got slowly to the take-off point and got the green lights and pushed the throttles forward and, fortunately [laughs], took off okay! And then, again, we thought we’d go back to Woodbridge, which we did, and I repaired the brakes and we got back to base. [Pause]
NM: What did you feel about the different roles that you were asked to play, then, between flight engineer and gunnery and bomb aiming?
HK: Well, I quite enjoyed it, the change, yes.
NM: So your crew, altogether, did forty-four operations?
HK: Yes.
NM: And you all stayed together for the whole time?
HK: No, all except the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator, they decided they wouldn’t go on to the second tour, and so we had spare chaps to do that, but I can’t really remember much about them.
NM: How did the crew feel about losing two stalwarts and getting two replacements?
HK: Well, don’t think we were terribly happy, but that was, you know, if they didn’t want to go on, well, that was it. I preferred to carry on rather than go to a training squadron because that could be a bit dicey sometimes.
NM: What would you say about life in Bomber Command overall?
HK: Overall, I had quite a good time, really. [Pause] No, I don’t think I would have chosen anything else, I was quite happy with what I was doing. Bit dicey at times, but that was it.
NM: Do you keep, keep in touch at all with, or – you’ve spoken about the rear gunner you’ve met in Australia, do you keep in touch with squadron associations, reunions?
HK: Oh, I, I kept up with the squadron association, and Path – not, yes, Pathfinder Association, while it was still in force, and then I belonged to the Aircrew Association, we had monthly meetings, and –
NM: Were they locally here?
HK: That was at, that’s at Hemel Hempstead, but there’s another ex-Pathfinder who flew in Mosquitos who lived in Hatch End, and we take it in turns to drive to Hemel, but we were quite fortunate, really, because a lot of the branches had to close because lack of members, but as it’s open to post-war fliers as well, we’ve got quite a few in, in our association, and they help to keep the thing going, in fact, I think all the, apart from one, are post-war fliers, or the, I’m trying to say, the people that control, the – sorry, I, I get mixed up with words sometimes [laughs]! Yeah, but anyway, we keep going.
NM: Okay, that’s fair [?]. How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the war?
HK: Not very well; in fact, I think in the end, we were quite happy to get the memorial. [Pause] Lot of work has been done to get it organised.
NM: Okay, shall we call it a day there?
HK: Hmm?
NM: Shall we finish the interview there? Are you happy with that, or was there anything else you’d like to talk about with your time in Bomber Command?
HK: I think I’ve covered most things. [Pause] I was telling you about my two friends that joined up before I did, both got shot down, one unfortunately on the Nuremburg raid, and the other one, who was on Stirlings, got shot down over France but parachuted to safety and was looked after by the French until he was – the Americans came. But, so, I was quite fortunate, really.
NM: So, did you find out about your friend’s loss during the war, or was it after the, only after the war, did you find?
HK: It was during the war, yes, I kept in touch with my particular school friend’s mother or parents and heard when he’d got shot down; they didn’t know what had happened to him at the time, of course, yes. [Pause] So I did keep up with that school friend after he’d come back from – to England. One peculiar thing happened was, at the time before he got shot down, he, he’d sent me a picture of him and a bomb aimer, his bomb aimer, and I was showing this to my crew, and my bomb aimer said ‘I know that chap, we’ve been doing training together in Canada!’ But he stayed on to do some training others and so he, he didn’t come, get to this country until well after my school friend’s bomb aimer had come here, but both the bomb aimer and my friend were the only two that managed to get out of the aircraft when it was shot.
NM: And you finished up doing a radar mechanic’s course?
HK: Yes.
NM: After the war.
HK: Ah, yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about that.
HK: Well, that was quite enjoyable, learning how the radar worked, and after the war, instead of going back – well, I did go back for a while to my original job, which was in an accounts department, in an accounts department in an electric supplier, I decided I wanted to do something a bit more technical, and the GEC at the time were advertising for people for their laboratories, and I went along and got a job in their patents department, and trained – well, I did evening classes, got BSc, then went on to do the patent agent’s exams and stayed there until I retired, retired in ’83 but went on and did five more years part-time, until they moved the whole place to Chelmsford, I decided that was enough [slight laugh].
NM: And you’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Yes.
NM: Okay, I think that’s probably a very good note to finish on.
HK: [Laughs] Yes!
[Recording beeps: interview paused and restarted]
NM: Just continuing the interview with Mr Kirby.
HK: Yes, there were a couple of instances which I remember now, not actually connected with the enemy, but we were due to fly to Munich to bomb something at Munich, and we had to, we were rooted over the Alps in moonlight, which was a beautiful sight to see, and then another occasion, we flew to one of the eastern countries, oh, I could tell you exactly where it is [sound of leafing through pages], and we had to fly over Sweden at the time, and, yes. No, I can’t [pause as HK continues leafing through pages] Ah, Politz. Yes, I had to fly over Sweden, which was quite exciting ‘cause it was all lit up, they did shoot, but we were told that not to worry, they weren’t going to shoot at us. [Laughs] But those are just two instances I happen to remember.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harold Kirby. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
Format
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00:42:44 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKirbyH150710, PKirbyH1511
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Kirby joined up the Royal Air Force encouraged by two friends, but ended up training as a flight mechanic at RAF Halton on medical grounds. Harold became them airframe fitter, volunteered as a flight engineer, passed the physical but was then posted as a fitter at RAF Binbrook for six months with 460 Squadron. He was then at RAF Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer, then to RAF Winthorpe Heavy Conversion Unit with an all-Australian aircrew. Harold recollects a crash landing at RAF Woodbridge, followed by attending Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Syerston. He was then posted to 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Discusses bombing operations over France V-1 weapons sites, a bomb falling through a wing, and crash landing at RAF Wittering. Harold was eventually posted to 97 Pathfinder Squadron at RAF Coningsby, owing to his array of skills and multiple qualifications. Discusses post war training as radar mechanic, employment at the General Electric Company and reunions with his Australian aircrew.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Language
A language of the resource
eng
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
crash
crewing up
fitter airframe
flight engineer
flight mechanic
forced landing
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mechanics airframe
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Halton
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Wittering
RAF Woodbridge
recruitment
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/633/8903/ARobertsonIU150824.2.mp3
df6d4e73bf583517219125c6e5d9e282
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/633/8903/PRobertsonIUA1501.1.jpg
cdc7de004a3cd39382e7e562f5d48dd0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robertson, Iain Urquhart
I U Robertson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robertson, IUA
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Iain Urquhart Robertson (2503864 Royal Air Force). He flew as an air gunner with 214 Squadron in the 1950s.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IR: My name is Iain Robertson. I’m doing this interview for Bomber Command. I was an air gunner. National Service air gunner in the early 1950s and I was fortunate enough to be selected for aircrew and became an air gunner with 214 Squadron at Upwood in Huntingdonshire. It all started really — I was working in Tunbridge wells in Kent and after my 18th birthday I was called up to Chatham to be interviewed to go and, to do my National Service. At the recruitment office — Chatham being a naval place it was sort of orientated towards the navy but after chatting to the interviewer there I was asked whether I would like to go into the army or the RAF and I said, ‘If possible I would like to be an RAF.’ So, we had a medical. Then we had a test which I guess was mainly an IQ test and then we were interviewed afterwards. I was interviewed by a flight sergeant in the RAF who said, ‘I’m not supposed to tell anyone but you got a hundred percent in the written test that you have just done and there is a limited requirement for aircrew and I would suggest that you ask to be an aircrew of some sort.’ So later, after Christmas, in January when I was called forward I went to the RAF Centre at Padgate in Lancashire which I realised subsequently was where everyone went but during the period that we were there some of us were taken down to Hornchurch in Essex and we spent a week there doing various things to be selected for aircrew. At the end of which I guess some people were not suitable and the majority of us appeared to be suitable and I was offered, if I was prepared to sign on for eight years they said I could go on to be a pilot or a navigator but as I had a good career in the Civil Service I decided that I would be an air gunner. And subsequently I was very pleased because I really enjoyed my two years training to be an air gunner and being an air gunner on 214 Squadron. After the aircrew selection there was an obligatory six weeks which they called square bashing but fortunately for me and a couple of the other people who were on the selection at Hornchurch there was a gunnery course starting at Leconfield several days after we returned from aircrew selection and we were put straight on to that so we missed the six weeks square bashing. Looking back, it was probably a good thing to miss. So, we got straight into the school. The gunnery school at Leconfield and we flew under instruction as air gunners with Wellingtons and we did fighter affiliation with Spitfires and occasionally a jet which was probably a Meteor or a Vampire. And after a three months course at Leconfield I passed out as a qualified air gunner and the squadron leader there signed a little certificate saying that I was a good average air gunner but I was very pleased to be given a medal as the best all around cadet of Number 13 Course. Which didn’t serve me in good stead, didn’t make me superior but it made me feel good. From there we went to Scampton in Lincolnshire for conversion on to the aircraft that we were going to be allocated and this, these were Lincoln bombers. And again, it was a three, a three month course after which we were allocated a squadron. During the course at Lincoln we put in probably about forty hours flying doing various exercises with pilots, navigators, bombs and gunnery. And we were crewed up and we went to 214 Squadron in Upwood at the end of that as a crew. And, you know, for the rest of my National Service which ended in 1953 I was with the same crew. Flying in Lincoln bombers. Doing various things in peacetime. Mostly pretty routine stuff but keeping our hands in as gunners, navigators, pilots, W/Ops, bomb aimers. All the exercises and during that time there were a lot of NATO exercises which were mostly night exercises. One of the NATO exercises I think which stands out in my memory was when we were the enemy force and we were laying mines and we laid mines in the Firth of Forth. And at the briefing we were told that we would be flying in very low but that we could not follow in line because when we dropped the mines the splash from the mine could actually interfere with the aircraft. So, we had to fly in like a gaggle of geese and drop these mines in the Firth of Forth. I think another one which stands out in my memory was the ditching of a Canadian Sabre pilot in the North Sea, just off The Wash, when we were flying on a cross country at that time and we got a fix to go and be part of the air sea search for this pilot. And we were fortunate to spot this pilot in his little dinghy floating around in The Wash and we dropped two smoke markers to identify his position and he was picked up by a Grumman Flying Boat which was, I think, an American from one of the American bases. Life on the squadron I guess was pretty routine but we were a good team. I think the beauty of the RAF was that when you were in the crew room the officers, NCOs were just crews and we got on very very well. I had a good rapport with the flight commander, Flight Lieutenant Burden, mainly because both he and I played football for the squadron football team and I was fortunate enough actually to play football with the squadron. We got to the finals of a squadron, inter-squadron command. Let me think. 3 Group Bomber Command finals and I was selected to play for Bomber Command in a representative game against a naval command. I think it was Portsmouth Command. Just as a representative of the RAF. And I think, I think the score was 3-2 for them so I’m not really too proud of that [laughs] but there you are. Our crew was one of the, of two crews which were all NCO crews. All the rest of the crews in the squadron had officers as pilots and navigators but our crews were all, we were all NCOs. Our skipper, Flight Sergeant Flight would you believe had flown Wellingtons during the Italian campaign and had been actually shot down and captured and he was the daddy. Actually, he looked after us well. Norman Flight was a Brummy but when he got airborne he was PO Prune because he had an RAF voice. The bomb aimer was Alan Cartwright, Sergeant Cartwright who was a Londoner. The navigator was Trevor Campbell who came from somewhere in Home Counties. Wireless operator was Bill Cartwright sorry – Bill Rycroft who was a Yorkie. A Yorkshire man. The flight engineer came from Norfolk. From Swaffham. And was what we used to call him Mangel Worzel because he had a, he was a farmer’s son. Mid-upper gunner Buster Unstead came from Brighton. And as you may have guessed I, as a rear gunner, came from Scotland. From Glasgow. So, we were a pretty mixed bag but being a crew, flying together, we were one unit. It was great. The crew room — officers and NCOs were mixed. We were all part of the squadron and that also was pretty good. When we got free at the weekends we used to go down to Cambridge. Once or twice we took a punt out on the river and we punted along with the skipper sitting back at the stern telling us what to do and as always telling us where we’d gone wrong. But it was all good fun. And the dances in Cambridge were pretty good as well because the nurses from Addenbrookes Hospital always put on a good show for us and if we were lucky we might get to see one of them home. I sort of got a friend who was the daughter of a farmer and had a car and she used to pick me up at the sergeant’s mess and we’d to go out for a drink and that was it. Actually, lost touch with her when we, when my National Service finished but there you are. It was just one of those things. Having described the crew actually all but the gunners were regulars. And the two gunners, Buster and myself were just National Service. But, you know, there was no distinction, except perhaps now and again in the mess when they referred to us as the Coca Cola kids. But, you know, on a squadron do we were prepared to drink our share of what was going so we, we all mixed in and it was great. It was like being part of one great family. Now and again things came along which broke up the monotony. I mean, clearly doing National Service in a period where the Cold War was the main part of our situation and because of that we actually did what they called escape and evasion exercises. We were taken in a sealed vehicle. Probably dropped off about forty to sixty miles away from the base and given sixpence for a telephone if we got into real trouble and were told to make our way back to the base over three or four days. Just living off the country and not getting caught. And to my credit, I think, although we were not necessarily the first to get back to base whoever I was with and I managed to evade all capture and eventually get ourselves back to the base by hook or by crook really. The fens were a big obstacle because clearly the best way back to base was a straight line but it wasn’t always very practical because these ditches were in the way. And now and again we had an incident with a local farmer where we had borrowed his boat or punt or whatever it was, necessary to cross over. And we took it and of course left it on the side that we were leaving and the farmer wanted it back on the other side. But we managed by travelling at night, diving into ditches and hiding out in woods during the day to get back to the base during these escape and evasion exercises. There was also one, one event actually which they called, I think, passive defence where we had to defend the airfield against a marauding army. And in our case, on this occasion the marauding army were the glorious Glosters who had been covered, covering themselves with glory in the Korean war and they took prisoners but they didn’t take kindly to being told that we had shot them. On one occasion, being a gunner, I was part of a machine gun post at the edge of the airfield and we saw this, these army blokes hiding down at the foot of a field and coming up behind a hedge for cover towards the edge of the airfield. As they came out they had to come across a field and we, with our range of fire, I think were able to shoot them all but of course there was inevitably a dispute and the umpires had to come and agree that we had actually disposed of that little group of soldiers. I think we took quite a few prisoners. Put them in the station tennis courts as a temporary measure but found that they had wire cutters and were actually cutting themselves out and escaping again. I don’t know what the real thing would have been like but this was probably as near the real thing as we could handle. Clearly, during that period as one of the, a Lincoln from another squadron had been shot down in the corridor during the Berlin Airlift. We felt that we as were near the front line as we could possibly be. But obviously as a member of 214 Squadron we had to do what we had to do and it was mostly exercises with NATO from time to time that created excitement and competition for us. As an air gunner and hearing that the squadron had latterly converted on to the V bombers and were flying Victors I realised that that was the end of gunners and that, you know, looking back at it, you know, it was a good time perhaps for us to be in with the last of the aircraft which flew needing gunners. Some of the other ones who had been selected for aircrew at the same time as me went on to B29s, Washingtons, and others went to Coastal Command and were flying Shackletons. I think these were the three operational aircraft in Bomber Command and Coastal Command at that time. Looking back, I guess I wouldn’t have missed it for anything. It was great to be part of an outfit serving our country.
MJ: Right. On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank Iain Robertson at his home in East Sussex for his recording on the date of the 24th of August 2015. I thank you.
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Interview with Iain Urquhart Robertson
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-08-24
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Sound
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ARobertsonIU150824, PRobertsonIUA1501
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:18:52 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Iain was a National Service air gunner in the 1950s and served with 214 Squadron at RAF Upwood in Huntingdonshire after being called up at the age of 18. Upon completion of training, he flew on Wellingtons and fighter affiliation with Spitfires. He was then posted to RAF Scampton for conversation onto Lincolns. After completing about 40 hours, he was posted to 214 Squadron.
He tells of his time doing NATO exercises, including laying mines in the Firth of Forth. Iain also talks about how his crew was all non commissioned officers, one of only two on the base; and of playing for the Squadron football team. He also talks about his escape and evasion exercises during the Cold War, and how he had to get back to base in three or four days. Iain speaks of his pride in serving in the Royal Air Force, and the time he ended his National Service in 1953.
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Vivienne Tincombe
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cambridgeshire
Scotland--Firth of Forth
Temporal Coverage
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1953
214 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
escaping
evading
Lincoln
military ethos
mine laying
RAF Scampton
RAF Upwood
Spitfire
sport
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/555/8822/PPennyJ1501.1.jpg
fff42be023f2039d6a047d63b00ab006
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/555/8822/APennyJ150816.1.mp3
6ebaa9907dda395c064c30ee9492e7f8
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Penny, Jim
James Alfred Penny
J A Penny
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Penny, J
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Three items. Two oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Jim Penny (b. 1922, 1345892 Royal Air Force) and his log book.
He joined the RAF in 1940 and flew operations as a pilot with 97 Squadron from RAF Bourn. Targets included Nuremberg, München Gladbach, Berlin, Montlucon Dunlop rubber factory in France, and the Modane Tower Tunnel. His aircraft was shot down over Berlin 24 November 1943 and he became a prisoner of war. He was liberated on 3 May 1945 and retired from the RAF on 19 July 1971.
The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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2015-08-16
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Jim joined the RAF in July 1940 on his 18th birthday. His ‘Flight’ was sent to the US to train under the ‘Arnold scheme’. He went to a variety of bases to learn to fly (detained in 1st interview), flying the PT17 Stearman biplane, BT-13A, AT-6A Harvard, Vultee-13, and then the Armstrong Siddeley, before returning on the Queen Elizabeth as a newly commissioned pilot with the rank of Sergeant.
On returning to the UK, he was posted to RAF Shawbury (Shropshire) Advance Flying Unit. Jim’s next posting was to RAF Tilstock Heath where he ‘crewed up’. Complete with crew he arrived at RAF Sleap (an auxiliary station for RAF Tilstock Heath). On being asking if they would be willing to join the Pathfinder Force all agreed to accept the offer – PFF was elite after all. After HCU training at RAF Blyton je stated, ‘The Lancaster was the finest plane I’ve ever flown’. On 26th July 1943 Jim was promoted to Flight Sergeant.
He remembered the RAF casualties and how their work affected their mental state, particularly the Squadron Casualties. However, the awareness that they were regularly striking at the heart to Nazi Germany left the with an enduring pride in being a ‘Armada’.
Jim and his crew transferred to RAF Upwood – Pathfinder Navigation Training Unit then to RAF Bourne 97.
Jim flew to bomb Nuremberg, München Gladbach, Berlin itself many times, Montlucon Dunlop rubber factory in France, and the Modane Tower Tunnel in France. He was involved in 2 flights that were ‘Boomerang flights’. One of the October operations was to be part of the decoy flight that was to draw fighters away from Kessel onto themselves, and bomb Frankfurt.
In November 1943 they were judged to be a competent part of the PFF and were tasked to be a back-up marker crew – the ones with the GREEN flares.
They flew to Dusseldorf, Manheim and Berlin. On 24 November 1943 they were hit by flak, managed to survive, became a POW until he was liberated on 3rd May 1945.
On 6th October 1945 he reported to No 34 Maintenance Unit at RAF Montford Bridge. A year later he had refresher course at Moreton-in-the-Marsh, as a Warrant Officer.
In 1948 Jim joined the City of Lincoln, Lincoln Squadron Bomber Command at RAF Waddington. He left Waddington to join the RAF Central Flying School as a flying instructor which he found very rewarding when he sent a pupil solo. Jim tried for a permanent commission while posted to RAF Ternhill but failed because he was tone deaf. Jim was offered a branch commission at the age of 37.
He left RAF as Flight Lieutenant on 19th July 71. He had no regrets about serving in the RAF and was a part of the Shrewsbury RAFA and the Shropshire Aircrew.
Claire CampbellClaire Campbell
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Transcription
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JP: Right, I’m James Alfred Penny. I’m ninety-three. I was born in Glasgow and during the war I ended up as a Bomber Commander Pathfinder Pilot with 97 Squadron at RAF Borne in Cambridgeshire, where we flew Lancasters. I was seventeen and a half when the war was declared. I still remember Neville Chamberlin broadcast. I thought then that he had done his best to prevent another war was almost in tears with those that were in war with Germany. I joined the RAF in July forty when I was eighteen. I’d wanted to be a pilot since I was about ten probably from reading all the exciting stories of the First World War pilots. There was a long waiting list before finally getting an aircrew medical. I finally became RAF VR at the voluntary reserve on 20th March 1941. I finally called for service on 4th July forty-one, sixteen days before my nineteenth birthday. On the train to London I met John Thomas and Alec McGarvey both policemen. Police had been reserved from East twenty-five and recently those between fifty-five and thirty were given permission to volunteer for aircrew. In my flight of sixty ITW, Initial Training Wing, forty were ex police. I remained convinced that every policeman in the United Kingdom between twenty-five and thirty promptly volunteered. Our flight was sent to America. General [unclear] Arnold commanded the South East Army Air Core. What became known as the Arnold Scheme trained RAF airman to be pilots. It began in June 1941 while America was still neutral and we entered the United States in civilian clothes. Our six hundred airmen became 42E, the fifth entry to be trained as pilots. When the Japs attacked Pearl Harbour on 7th December forty-one we went into RAF uniform. As the US declared war in Germany in Japan we were now allies. The Arnold Scheme ended in March 1943 presumably as the US required their training facilities and the build up of their own airforce. As well as the Arnold Scheme RAF were trained in Texas and produced navel airman by the US Navy. One hundred of us went to Souther Field, Americus, Georgia for primary training by the civilian, Graham Civilian Aviation Company on the PT17, the Stearman biplane. My civilian instructor, G M Marston was a quiet, patient man who inspired confidence. Being sent solo was the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. From basic training we went to the US AirCore Cochran Field, Macon in Georgia manned by AirCore ground crew and officer flying instructors. We flew the BT-13A, an all metal monoplane with fixed undercarriage and a standard instrument panel suitable for night flying. The propeller had a fine and coarse pitch. Compared to the Stearman it was very heavy on the controls. I was slowly adjusted to these heavy controls. My aircrew lieutenant with a none stop [unclear] style had no patience had put me up for check ride by a senior instructor. This went off well and I was given a new instructor a Lieutenant Stanell, another quiet patient man with whom I progressed well and passed onto advanced. Advanced training at Napier Field, Dothan, Alabama was an AT-6A named by a Harvard by the RAF. Light on the controls I was again slow to adjust. On approachment to landing I let the speed drop dangerously low, near to a stall, which from approach height would have been fatal. I had two check rides and was washed out and sent back to Canada. In Canada the personal dispatch centre at Trenton Ontario was unhappy place. Airman who had failed their courses were processed for some other form of service. Interviewed by a Flight Lieutenant he asked why I had been washed out. I said it was my own fault. I’d been too slow to adjust the voltage much heavier controls and the Harvard had the same trouble in reverse, for it was light on the controls and I was heavy handed now. I said I thought it would’ve been better if I had gone from the Stearmans straight to Harvards. The Lieutenant smiled and said we had been worried about the number of washouts at advanced and sent a team of experienced pilots to investigate. They’ve just come back and had recommended exactly what you have suggested. I’m going to recommend you go back and fly. In 1950 training by a flying instructor at central, RAF Central Flying School I was trained to rest my hand lightly on the Harvards trim to ensure it was not used incorrectly whilst you’re a pilot. I recall the Vultee VT-13 required the elevated trim to be wound fully back on the approach to landing. Wind the trim fully back on the Harvard resulted in a near up attitude and dangerous loss of speed on the approach. Now that my instructor and two check ride pilots had recognised what I was doing with the trim which was creating the danger, and recently reading about the Arnold Scheme on the internet I learnt that some fifty percent failed and were sent back to Canada. I wonder now how many of the large number of washouts from advanced that Trent Flight Lieutenant had mentioned had been caught out by the same simple trap. In a flight interview the Flight Lieutenant apologised for me going back to flying on the twin engine Lockwood for he rightly assumed, like most, I wanted to be a pilot, fighter pilot. We went to 35 SFTS North Battleford, Saskatchewan. After the war when I visited Canada I realised that someone in the Canadian Government had been very far seeing. These airfields built all over Canada became civil airfields serving the far flung areas of Canada which might otherwise might not have afforded this vital facility in such remote areas. The Airspeed Oxford was a low wing twin engine aircraft with a single fin and rudder pared with the Armstrong Siddeley 350 horsepower Cheetah radial engine. A sturdy plane, for me it had no vices. My instructor Pilot Officer, Flight Officer Henry Shackleton was another quiet patient man whose pleasant friendly manner put one at ease. On the 12th of September 1942 we were awarded our coveted wings and promoted to Sergeant. I had flown a total of two hundred and eighty-one hours by then and as was usual only six on our course were commissioned. We came home on the Queen Elizabeth. More than ten thousand of all three services were aboard. She sailed unescorted because she was too fast for any sub to catch her. The Queen and Queens must have carried nearly two million men to and fro across the Atlantic. [pause] RAF Shawbury in Shropshire was the first airfield I flew from in England on 15th January 1943 and was to be the last stationed I served at on retirement on 19th of July 1971. It was a special place in my memories, all happy for it was a happy station and always blessed by good station commanders. In January forty-three number 11 Advanced Flying Unit was equipped for the Airspeed Oxford. They checked our competency as pilots, accustomed us to night flying over the blacked out, over the blacked out UK. There was a bat fight a team approach training flight which trained pilots on the system where on approach to landing the pilot had a constant hum in his earphones if he was correctly in line with the runway. If he strayed off course the hum became a Morse Code dot dash or dash dot depending on whether he was port or starboard of the correct line of approach. There was an outer beacon, sorry an outer and an inner beacon which gave a cone of silence as the plane passed overhead. I think one had — stop this is then —I think one had to be four hundred feet at the outer beacon and two hundred feet at the inner. On my last bat fight, under the hood flying solely only on instruments, I was guided by the beacon approach. After the near marker I expected the instructed to take over but he told me to keep going and finally said “round out”. This I did and instantly with touchdown on the runway. I had a shock when I lifted the hood off. We were in thick fog. The instructor, also on the beam, had absolute faith in it keeping me on the controls lets him concentrate on seeing the runway at the last minute. Thick fog had arrived suddenly and with insufficient flow to divert to another airfield clear of fog. The experience only gave me even more confidence in the BE system. I left Shawbury with a total of three hundred and seventy hours and much more confident of my abilities as a pilot. [pause] Can we start again? For operation training we went to RAF Tilstock Heath in Shropshire where we crewed up. This is a strange RAF custom. Pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators and rear gunners were assembled in a large hanger. We were told to sort ourselves out into crews and left to get on with it. With no warning of this affair most looked at stunned as I felt. How did one start? I thought I might as well get a Scottish crew and went over to a work of bomb aimers and asked if any of them were Scots. Sergeant Ali Campbell, a bomb aimer, said “I'm from Glasgow will I do”? I liked the look of them man. “Certainly” “I know a navigator from Glasgow shall I get him?” “Yes please.” He fetched a dark [unclear] individual older man and introduced him as Jimmy Graham also from Glasgow. With Jimmy was a red headed, freckled fresh face gunner and Jimmy said “Red here is an American. He'd like to be in the same crew as me.” Red was Sergeant P D Rise from New York. I liked, I liked the look of the man. I was delighted. All I needed now as a wireless op. A little chap asked if I could take somebody from Grimsby. I liked the look of him too. Sergeant J R Cowan made my crew complete. Seems strange I never knew their ages until I started to write my memoirs in the year 2000 and I learnt them from a kind and most competent lady from the Air Historical Branch. Jimmy Graham was the oldest man in the crew at twenty-eight. Bob Campbell was twenty-two. Bob Cowan twenty-three. Red was Royal Canadian Air Force and I only learnt he was twenty-nine when my book was published and I was contacted by his relatives. It seems now a strange way to select a crew to put us all together and let us sort ourselves out. Somehow it worked and the crew thus formed seem to be successful. RAF Sleap was a nearby satellite airfield for Tilstock Heath. C flight from err, C flight was detached to operate from there. We flew the Whitley Mark 4, powered by two Rolls Royce Merlins. When we practiced single engine landing I thought the Whitley was difficult in holding height on one engine. In fact, one night heading back to Sleap from a cross-country exercise, we lost power in the starboard engine and started to lose height. We approached the Pennines with only high ground to come, a black night and a possibility of air, air, alternator error I told the crew to put on their parachutes and standby to bail out if we got below three thousand feet. Fortunately our old Whitley held height above three thousand feet and we made it safely back to base. That was when I found out that Bob Cowan was petrified of having to bail out but it didn't stop him flying, that is courage. I liked the aircraft. It handled well and seemed sturdy. We practiced bombing at both high and low level, air to sea gunnery and many cross-country flights. We flew slightly more night than day hours. By the end of the course I had four hundred and thirty hours in my log and for the first and only time passed out with an above average assessment in my logbook. As a crew we were above average and we had major successes in navigation and bombing exercises. We were pleased to be one of the two crews on the course to be chosen to fly on an operational leaflet dropping over France and even more pleased when the operation was cancelled. For we were only too well aware that the Whitley was no longer a suitable operational aircraft. I was asked if we would volunteer for Pathfinder Force, warning that this would mean a tour of forty ops instead of thirty which was the main post tour. I consulted with the crew and they all agreed they wanted to accept the offer for the Pathfinders were considered an elite force. We went to a heavy conversion unit at RAF Blyton in June and we were there until July and we first flew the Halifax Mark 2 and 4, 2 and 5, sorry. For the Halifax was reckoned to have a sturdier undercarriage, better able to stand a heavy landing pilots new to the type might make and often did. After about fifteen hours in a Halifax we flew forty-eight hours in the Lancaster's Mark 1 and 3. I loved the Lancaster from the first flight. It was a pilot’s aeroplane. It was very responsive. Sergeant Father's, aged 21, who came from London, became our flight engineer. On the 26th of July I was promoted to acting up flight sergeant and we left Blyton for RAF Upwood which housed a Pathfinder Navigation Training Unit. For the staff instructor observing how we performed we flew one bombing and six country flight exercises. The last was the north, up the Irish Sea between the western isle, round the top of Scotland down over central Scotland and the Pennines. At ten thousand feet on a clear summer day it was the most pleasant flight I have ever made. The weather was glorious and the Highlands and Islands were beautiful. [pause] Next we joined 97 Pathfinders Squadron at RAF Bourn in Cambridgeshire. Bourn was [unclear] airfield with dispersed accommodation. We were allocated a mid upper gunner, pilot officer G T, G J Bates. He had already completed one tour and we were delighted to have a man of his experience join the crew. He was relaxed and at ease with us and we all liked him. I remember the casualties and how they affected our attitude and emotions at the time, especially squadron casualties. We were aware that regularly [unclear] strike at the heart of Nazi Germany. We were proud to be part of the Armada, I still am. [pause] Alright. Over the years I’ve often been asked if I was ashamed of bombing Germany. Those that asked that question are the ones who should be ashamed. More than fifty-five young men in Bomber Command who died were exactly the same type of men as the fighter pilots from the Battle of Britain and like them were fighting for their country. Err, and Hitler — don't, don’t, yeah, right. The bombing campaign was indeed terrible but in the context of the time it was essential. The moment war ended political experience combined with moral cordis made those who had approved the campaign back off because of primarily Hamburg and Dresden. Both had military targets and ethers of time I deeply regret the necessity but not the actions. For the first I was not yet an operational squadron. For the second I was a POW. Had I been on a squadron at those times I would have taken part. This part of my story is primarily to the memory of five brave young men who died to keep the country free from an evil tyranny and a brave young American who came to help. Right. At Bourn we were allocated a mid — new pilots went as a second pilot for an experienced crew in their first two operations. I was crewed with Pilot Officer Ken Farely, an Australian. Operation pilots in Lancaster were not fitted with dual control. Second pilots stood behind the engineers position keeping out of the way. Milan was a seven hour forty-five minutes round trip of about twelve thousand miles, twelve hundred miles sorry. A long time to be standing. All I did look out and listen to the crew on the intercom. They were very professional. There was no chatter and it was all related to the task. There was cloud cover all the way over France but over the Alps the sky cleared and in the bright moonlight the Alps were awesome. Brilliant white snow on the mountains did not hide the bleakness and the threat of the black rock. I remember thinking this was no place to have an engine failure. A forced landing was out of the question, even parachuting would have been fraught with danger. The sky cleared over Italy and the target was visible from the fires already started. The searchlights and the flying to my inexperienced eye seemed to waiver about rather aimlessly in the fact of the light below us even though we were only about fifteen thousand feet. We were carrying target indicator bombs, the usual cookie, the four thousand pound blast bomb and three five hundred pound high explosive bombs. Looking at the bomb dispersal I thought how impressive that bomb load looked. It was particularly interesting listening to the bombers controls as he lined up to drop are green TI’s on the [unclear]. The Pathfinders task, the most experienced crews identified the aiming point and dropped red TI markers and follow-up Pathfinders dropped backup greens on the reds. Target indicators drifted, usually backwards. Instructed by the master bomber, Pathfinders would re-centre. Main force aircraft bombed on these markers. One hundred and forty Lancasters went to Milan and one failed to return. The flight home was anticlimax. The Alps were awesome but the flight over France was dull, even boring. Later on of course I realised that was just what was most wanted. A nice safe, incident free, boring journey home. On the 16th it was a relief to be at the controls again with my own crew and we made a short daylight flight. On the 17th I was flown — no hang on, cut that. On the 23rd of August to Leverkusen. Again I was crewed as a second pilot to Pilot Officer Farely. Four hundred and seventy Lancs and Halifax’s went to Leverkusen and five failed to return. Flight time was four hours forty-five for a five hundred mile round trip. With a lighter fuel load we carried a heavier bomb load. TI’s, the cookie and six thousand pound high explosives. This time the targets seemed to be heavily defended by flak. There was virtually complete cloud cover lit up by the searchlights, good for the night fighters to see the bombers against the relatively bright cloud. Although our gunners didn't see, other reports said there was a lot of fighter activity. We bombed the red glows. I thought a bit dodgy though I had just enough sense to make no comment. Leverkusen is not far from Cologne and I heard later the Germans had reported that Cologne had been attacked. We bombed from thirty thousand feet which I thought a bit dodgy in heavy flak. Sergeant Farely was making sure his bomb aimers had the best possible view. There was a lot of flak on the way to and from the target. We were in a major industrial area and the flak was from other towns. I was dying to ask questions but knew that would not be welcomed. The shorter flight time with so much going, on despite tiring, this trip was not too tiring. [pause] Was on the 23rd and 24th of August to Berlin. It was decided it would not be fair to send me to Berlin on my first operation with my crew. Ok. We had been reminded at briefing to be alert for intruders on return and this lesson was rubbed in when we learnt that a crew had been shot down over England when nearly home. Our first operation as a crew was on 27th, 28th of August to Nuremberg my flight engineer was Sergeant Richard Fathers, twenty-one. I was twenty-one at that time. My navigator Sergeant James Graham was twenty-eight. My bomb aimer was Sergeant Campbell, twenty-two. My wireless operator Sergeant Cowan was twenty-three. My mid upper gunner, I never did find out his name, his age and my rear gunner Sergeant Rees eventually I found out was ninety-seven, no twenty-seven. On the ground it was Christian names except that I was always Skipper and there I used the crew positions eg bomb aimer. On that first flight with a task as main force for the bomb force, loaded with the cookie a blast bomb and high explosives Jimmy’s navigation was spot on and we reached the target on time. The Nuremberg, the Nuremberg target was clear. Bob bombed the TIs which were clearly seen. I was impressed with his calm control on the bombing run and his rising crescendo tone as he gave steady, steady, steady just before he reached our bombs which emphasised the need for just that. Although the flight was heavy and there was many searchlights we saw no night fighters but learnt there weren't many at the target on the route home. Of six hundred and seventy-four aircraft thirty-three were lost two night fighters. Two were 97 Squadron crews which put a damper on our euphoria at completing a successful mission. Right. Stop. On the 31st of August we went to Mönchengladbach. Fifteen of the squadron took off after midnight, a round trip of six hundred and sixty miles took three and a half hours. Jimmy’s navigation was spot on and we arrived at the target on ETA. We carried a cookie again and high explosives even with that load we had notably reached ninety thousand feet. Despite the cloud cover Bob could see the glow of the red and green concentration markers and bombed in the centre of these.
Again I found it easy to follow his clear guiding voice as he kept us on line for his target. With his bombs gone the light seemed to leap up, if it could have sighed with relief I’m sure it would have. I did. We still had a further thirty seconds of straight and level waiting for the flash to go off on our camera. I hated that extra wave and ones instinct was to turn away with the flak bursting near us. No fighters but twenty-five aircraft were lost to [unclear] many over the target area. Right. The 30th August to the 1st September 1943 we went to Berlin. The flight time was six hundred and fifty hours over a thousand miles. Our bomb load was a cookie plus eight five hundred pound heavy explosives. We reached Berlin on estimated time of arrival. At eighteen thousand feet Bob bombed on a red marker despite the cloud. The flight seemed more concentrated to me. The searchlights lit up the cloud. We saw no fighters but many of our own aircraft was seen over the target. Forty-seven were missing mostly to fighters and mainly in the Berlin target area. Wing Commander Burns, A Flight Commander was reported missing which was a shock for he was a legendary character on the squadron. It was also disconcerting that someone so experienced could fail to return. We were gaining in confidence. The crew had performed so well and Berlin was considered one of the dodgiest targets. Overall losses proved that. We flew three more successful missions [pause] each time arriving on our ETA and err, our ETA — alright. Start that again. 3rd of September 1943 was Berlin again and the 5th and 6th of September we went to Mannheim which was the boomerang. The Boomerang is failing to complete a mission [pause] oh dear. It’s incomplete a mission. Returning airway a very opposite name for such events. A boomerang does not count as an operation. Less than an hour out the starboard outer engine caught fire. We ejected our bombs in the sea. On our way back the station engineering officer told me the oil pipe, the propeller control had sheared and the loss of oil would have been so rapid, too much to allow for the feathering. He congratulated me on getting back and landing safely with a wind milling prop. I was pleased for I was a bit miffed that not one of the pilots, not even my flight commander, made any well done comment. When I thought about it, it was small beer compared to having been to Mahnomen and back. On the 15th of September we went to Montlucon in France again, no not again, take that out, rubber factory some four hundred and thirty miles from base. [pause] It took five hundred and twenty hours, five hundred and twenty hours. Three hundred and seventy-four Halifax and Stirling bombers were assigned. Of the forty Lancaster twenty-eight were Pathfinders. I suspect the others were new crews like us from Pathfinder squadrons with main force bomb loads of cookies and heavy explosives. We went in at four thousand six hundred feet. On the approach Sam Ogleby, our new gunner called out from mid upper turret “Christ skipper look up”. I saw what seemed to be hundreds of bombs falling just a few feet in front of us. Most seem to be coming from heavy bombing directly over head. At briefing we had been told of the aircraft brief to bomb from six thousand, eight thousand and ten thousand feet. On return it was surprising to hear that incendiary bombs had hit only five aircraft. What had been looked on as a relatively safe operation had turned out to be quite hairy. Three aircraft were lost, one to flak near the coast and two to fighters. The raid was completely successful in destroying the entire Dunlop works. On the 16th and 17th of September we went to Modane Tower in France. Again our mid upper gunner was again Sam Ogleby. The target was the entrance to the Modane Tunnel. Three hundred identical loads. Unlike my feelings on my last return from Milan, this time I welcomed an uneventful return home. I was not tired by flight time of seven hours ten minutes but piloting kept me busy and strangely happy. Also I was not standing all the way. Two aircraft had lost to flak over the French coast one going and one on the way home. A third fell to a fighter somewhere on the route back. We then had a new mid upper gunner Flight Sergeant R S Mortham, aged 23, who had completed a tour in the Middle East. [pause] [sigh] In September we flew three more successful missions each time arriving on our ETA. We also flew one boomerang. The 3rd of September 1943 we went to Berlin. On the 5th, 6th of September we went to Mannheim, that was the boomerang. The boomerang is failing to complete a mission returning early. A boomerang does not count as an operation. Less than an hour out the Starboard outer caught fire, we ejected our bombs in the sea our way back to the base. On our way back the station engineering officer told me the oil pipe, the propeller control had sheared and the loss of oil would have been so rapid, too much to allow for the feathering. He congratulated me on getting back and landing safely with a wind milling prop. I was pleased for I was a bit miffed that not one of the pilots, not even my flight commander, made any well done comment. When I thought about it, it was small beer compared to having been to Mahnomen and back. 15th of September was Montlucon in France. The target was the Dunlop rubber factory four hundred and thirty miles from base. The round trip took five hours. Three hundred and seventy-four Halifax and Stirling bombers were assigned. Of the forty Lancs twenty-eight were Pathfinders. I suspect the others were new crews like us. Squadrons with main force bomb loads of cookies and HE. We went in at four thousand six hundred feet. On the approach Sam Ogleby, our new gunner called out from the mid upper turret “Christ skipper look up”. I saw what seemed to be hundreds of bombs falling just a few feet in front of us. Most seem to be coming from a heavy bomber directly over head. At briefing we’d been told there would be aircraft brief to bomb from six thousand, eight thousand and ten thousand feet. On return it was surprising to hear that incendiary bombs had only hit five aircraft. What had been looked on as a relatively safe operation had turned out to be quite hairy. Three aircraft were lost. The raid was completely successful in destroying the entire Dunlop works. September 16th, 17th we went to Modane in France and again our mid upper gunner was again Sam Ogleby. The target was the entrance to the Modane Tunnel. Unlike my feelings on my last return from Milan, this time I welcomed an uneventful return home. Two aircraft were lost to flak over the French coast one going one on the way home, a third fell to a fighter somewhere on the route back. We then had a new mid upper gunner, Flight Sergeant R S Mortham aged 23, who had completed a tour in the Middle East. In October we made five successful operations. On the 2nd and 3rd of October, 3rd of October to Munich. On 4th and 5th to Frankfurt. At Frankfurt ten aircraft were missing and one was from 97 Squadron. Strange that even heavy losses overall seem to have little effect yet the loss of one squadron crew cast a gloom. Not that we knew the lost crew, we were all friendly enough but did not mix with other crews. It was as if each crew was sufficient unto itself. It was certainly not a conscious decision but as if we were aware at all time that someone might be the next to go. With indestructibility of youth it was never going to be you, always some other chaps. 7th, 8th of October Stuttgart. 8th and 9th Hammerberg. That was another boomerang. 18th and 19th Hanover. 22nd, Frankfurt, Kassel. Three hundred and forty three Lancs went to Kassel, the main target, only four were lost. This time there were two important [unclear] raids. Lancs to [unclear] and Mosquitoes to Munich. These spoof [unclear] particularly Mosi’s in Munich drew off the German fighters. For us there was various flak to fly through, much as usual. Of the eighteen aircraft of 97 Squadron which went to Hanover one was — a number of experience crews went missing. 18th, 19th of October was Hannover. Three hundred and sixty Lancs went out. Seventeen were lost. Another experienced crew from 97 Squadron again put a dampener on satisfactorily completing another op. 22nd of October Kassel and Frankfurt. Sixteen crews attacked Kassel and two were part of the spoof raid on Frankfurt to draw the German Fighters from the main force. We were one of those crews though the other boomerang. Frankfurt, eight mosquitoes and twenty-eight Lancs set off for Frankfurt and thirty-one of us got there. A bomb load with cookies and one hundred and fifty-six incendiaries. The only time we carried incendiaries for we were a spoof simulating the beginning of a full raid. On the crew buster aircraft I remember Red “Hey skip were to draw off the fighters we’ll be drawing off the buggers onto us”. Kassel, Frankfurt was 90 mile to the south and slightly west to Kassel. The route had made it appear that Frankfurt was the main target but as we opened attack there the main force turned north east to Kassel. We headed there to after dropping our bombs and the raid was fully developed as we approached. The sky was clear and visibility good. We could see Kassel was a solid [unclear] of fire. I thought it must be completely destroyed. All my commander reports confirmed that. My thoughts had been accurate to all intents and purposes it was. There were many fighters at Kassel and of the four hundred and forty-four Lancasters and Halifax which attacked Kassel, forty-two were lost. A heavy price to pay even for an incredibly successful operation. I was sad that our spoof had not been very successful. Kassel was a horror on the scale of Hamburg and Dresden and the efficiency of the operation. It was a smaller place. I have no idea of the casualties or reports concerned to the Germans. War did not comment on German casualties. For once I felt sorry for the folk in that city. Would I do it again? Yes. We were at war, all war is evil but more evil is to submit to evil. For me it's a simple as that. Bomber Command in forty and forty-one to forty-three was the only force with air striking directly at Germany. Part of the direct damage done to the German war. If all those German fighter planes, guns, searchlights and the men who manned them had been available for the Russian front, it could reasonably be argued that Russia might have been defeated before the aid of the west reached it. November forty-three [pause] 3rd and 4th November 43 we went to Dusseldorf. This was our first operation as back up markers. I have since discovered that crews from main force Squadron with a good record would be asked to volunteer for Pathfinder Force after fifteen main force operations. We’d been picked up early and done [unclear] trips for the Pathfinder Squadron. It gave us a boost to think we had proved ourselves. We were now considered competent to be a back up marker crew. This was due to Jimmy’s consistently accurate navigation and Bob's excellent bomb aiming. Bob certainly is part too passing information obtained on his steady radio watch. Although we had not been attacked by night fighters we had great confident in our gunners ability which was comforting. We now carried four TIs, that’s target indicator bombs, as well as the cookie and high explosives. Dusseldorf was a round trip taking four hours thirty minutes. Bob's report as recorded in Jimmy's log stated green TI markers and bomb sites at time of release of bombs. Markers later were concentrated. A typical clear report from Bob. He always had a relevant aiming point in his bomb sight. Cut. 7th and 8th of November we went to Mannheim which had twin towers separated by the Rhine. Then on the 18th and 19th of November we were back to Berlin. Stop there. 18th and 19th of November was Berlin again. Again we got there on ETA and Bob released our HE on a concentration of various backed up by greens. We saw flak all around us, Berlin was getting quite dodgy. Nine of the four hundred and forty Lancaster's failed to return. 22nd and 23rd of November Berlin, six hundred and fifty heavies plus eleven mosquitoes attacked Berlin. Wait a minute. The, the — what's that? The Bomber Command report stated that German Fighters were grounded by bad weather and only twenty-five aircraft were lost. It only shows clearly that although every airport was made to keep losses down these raids were made before learners and acceptance of the best of all those young men. It was appropriate to record the great regard bomber crews had for Butch Harris.
Back within the ethers of time with us and we were proud to be one of the Butch’s men. Butch was a term of affection. I recorded it but I don't expect those not there to understand it. Cut. 24th November 1943, Berlin. We were again carrying TIs. We arrived on ETA to find about eight tenths cloud. The searchlights again lit up the sky and the cloud. The flak seemed heavier than ever as we arrived up to our aiming point. At the end of our terminal run and just as his voice had risen to the central tone of steady, steady, steady he quietly said “we’ve re-centred, carry on straight and level Skipper it's going to be about two more minutes”. So we did a further two minutes straight and level. This time just as Bob's tone had [coughs] again risen to the steady, steady, steady indicating imminent bomb release we were hit by flak in the bomb bay. [pauses]The BST report of that night's raid seems to fully support my belief, as it was predictive flak, given that extra time to latch on to us one of our green TIs exploded in the bomb bay and we were surrounded by green fire. All the electrics fused so there was no intercom. I distinctively released my catch to my harness which strapped me in my seat and I broke open the harness to lean forward and wave to Dicky who was in the nose by Bob throwing out window. Window is metallic strips for deceiving radar. I pointed to behind my seat where his parachute was. As he came back I started counting one and two, two and three until I reached eighteen seconds. I knew my crew could be allowed thirty to sixty seconds for we practiced often enough. Now I had no intercom to give them the order I still believe that, that when I lent, lent forward I saw Bob with his hand on the bomb release panel trying to eject our bombs. I know the forward escape hatch was not open. I also knew it would all be a matter of seconds before the burning TI set off the four thousand pound blast bomb from the cookie, and hoped it would be long enough to get some of them out. I still had full control and all I had to do was keep my plane straight and level to give my crew the best aid to bailing out. I knew I was going to die but my responsibility for my crew, was my crew. I did throw up two thoughts my first was Mum’s not going to like this and very strangely for I had never considered this before nor even as the polite saying is knowing a woman the second was I wish I’d left a son behind. There was now flames between me and my instrument panel and Dicky was just bending down for a parachute when the cookie blew up. I found myself still in the sitting position in cold air with a flashing thought “where's my bloody plane gone”. The mind works incredibly fast in such situations and I recall waving the choices between doing a delayed drop to avoid the flak or opening my chute at once to drift clear of the bombing. As we were exactly over the aiming point when we blew up and at the midpoint of the raid I knew what was to come. I pulled my rip cord. When my chute opened I saw what could only be a piece of fuselage falling past me like a falling leaf. Then I remembered that the Home Guard had been told if a shell exploded within fifty feet of a parachute it would cause it to candle, which means to fold up. With that in mind, hanging there in the middle of the Berlin flak where it seemed to be every gun was pointed at me, I have never been so frightened in all my life. Courage is a strange thing, in the plane I had the responsibility of my crew I knew I was done but I was scared. Hanging from a parachute I had nothing to think about but myself, I was petrified. The German gunners missed me and I did land safely but that begins a different part of my story. [pause]. It's completely irrational for I could have done no more than I did but I still carry a deep sense, not of guilt but of something closely approximating to it, in that I lived and my crew died. I wrote to all the kin on my liberation with varying responses. I’d known my crew for such a short, time indeed knew little about them except professionally they were so very good at their respective jobs yet we became a close knit crew and formed an inexplicable bond, dependant on each other skills and loyalty. Red could have joined his countrymen, he would certainly have had better pay probably better promotion, yet he chose to stay with his skipper and his crew. Like the rest of us he knew the risks. Few crews from Pathfinder completed the forty-five operations. Now after over seventy years it’s absurd but I can still see them as they were and I miss them still. Their loss has conditioned my response in life to include indeed I am lucky Jim because I have a life that they were all denied. That's it. I landed in a back garden, a suburban back garden in Berlin and was very rapidly picked up. I was a prisoner of war from the 24th of November 1943 to the 4th of May 1945. After the war I stayed in the air force and was commissioned and retired in 1971.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I'd like to thank Jim Penny for his recording on the 23rd of August 2015 at his home in Shrewsbury. Thank you very much.
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Interview with Jim Penny. One
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-08-16
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Sound
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APennyJ150816, PPennyJ1501
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Penny joined the Air Force in July 1940 when he was eighteen. He recounts the training which he undertook before he became a Bomber Command Pathfinder pilot for 97 Squadron at RAF Bourn. He explains the crewing up process and details those who were in his crew. He gives accounts of his operations until his aircraft was shot down over Berlin 24 November 1943. His Lancaster was hit in the bomb bay by anti-aircraft fire which caused a green target indicator to explode. All his crew were killed but he became a prisoner of war. After the war he stayed in the RAF until he retired in 1971.
Contributor
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Tracy Johnson
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Modane
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Mannheim
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943-11-24
1944
1945
Format
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00:43:13 audio recording
97 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
crewing up
fear
grief
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 5
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
military ethos
Oxford
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Blyton
RAF Bourn
RAF Shawbury
RAF Sleap
RAF Tilstock
RAF Upwood
searchlight
shot down
Stearman
target indicator
training
Whitley
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/475/8357/PBoyntonS1512.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/475/8357/ABoyntonS150624.1.mp3
0ed41bfbe8c8db1cab395ef730cc5b81
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Boynton, Stuart
Thomas Stuart Boynton
T S Boynton
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Boynton, S
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Stuart Boynton (1622415 Royal Air Force), He served as an air gunner with 103 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Stuart Boynton and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TSB. 1923,19,1939 I left Bridlington Grammar School eh, then, which I didn’t join the RAF straight away I joined the Air Training Corps, I was in there for about a year and a half. The war had already started after about a year and a half I thought well I’ll volunteer for Aircrew, which I went down to London, passed with flying colours, as I think and after that I was eh. I am trying to think where I went after various placed in the RAF in England. I was in Harrogate, I was in, up at South Shields. Then, I am trying to think of it, dates. That’s 1939 so, in after I had been in the RAF a few months I was posted to South Africa and my first wife and I then decided, ‘shall we get married and save the money until the war’s finished?’ Which, I got married when I was only twenty it was in the February ’43. And eh, the next within a week of being married I was transferred to South Africa where I, where I was on the Ansons, flying in the Ansons. On returning from South Africa about a year afterwards I as posted to LLandwrog in Wales. While in Wales there was quite a lot of flying the Anson again and eh just before my birthday which was 21st of March 1924, 1924 yes my first birthday my I was, my was transferred, I was transferred and posted to Finningley which is now Doncaster Airfield. So, so in February 1923, I was born in ’23, 1943 I was flying to South Africa which I say after South Africa I went to LLandwrog. Getting to Finningley which is on 21st birthday which was 1944 I was travelling from LLandwrog to Finningley with a kit bag over my shoulder, that was my 21st birthday. So consequently I flew from Finningley, I was on the Wellingtons for a short time. Eh, a leaflet trip to Holland dropping leaflets then from Finningley I went to Lindholme just down the road onto Halifax’s. While there I had a leaflet trip again to Holland and then from Lindholme I was posted to Hemswell onto the Lancasters. From Hemswell I was posted to Elsham, that’s where I did my first operation. I am only guessing now, Elsham I should say get to Elsham some time in September which was ’44. Our first operational trip was early I should say early November and I you ask me what that was like I can only answer [unclear] It was absolutely horrendous. The flak and everything else was shocking we were caught in the eh, eh the searchlights. Anyway with a bit of luck we got home safely. I just said to skipper ‘I am pleased were back from that,’ I said ‘ thirty trips like this we will double grave before we get to thirty trips.’ Anyway that was all right, we went into land, as we landed we flew straight off the airfield. The plane went up on its side we were straight off, all flat tyres. so that was the first one. After that most of our trips was over what we call the Happy Valley which was the German Steel places, Essen, most of mine was to Essen. Anyway we flew to Essen, we was very pleased to get back. Anyway we did about another ten trips after that ten or eleven trips after that. A couple of pretty bad ones after that but the biggest majority were what you call very easy. The last one we never made as we were coming on our way back, we had a very easy trip, a very quiet trip. The Rear Gunner said ‘We got a; fighter on our port side Skipper.’ Anyway he tried to do the evasive did a bit of a mm a mm, tried to get rid of him anyway. Consequently after about ten minutes, half an hour. Oh I thought we were on our way home. The next thing I knew was the Pilot saying ‘Abandon aircraft were on fire.’ I said, I was I went off in rotation. Just as I was going I saw, three [unclear] last thing I remember saying to my Skipper ‘I’ll see you down stairs Phil.’ With that I was pulling me ‘chute, just as I was pulling me ‘chute, I just heard on intercom the Rear Gunner say ‘Christ I’ve pulled me ‘chute.’ With that I’d gone, I didn’t know what happened after that. But what happened after that I was, only left on the plane was the Pilot, the Rear Gunner and the Mid Upper both the Gunners were Canadians. The young lad I thought I was the ablest, the youngest twenty one. Eddie was only just turned eight, nineteen for all I know he panicked and wouldn’t jump with the Mid Upper, Canadian, wanted him to jump with him, but he refused to jump. ‘No I’m not jumping.’ So all the Pilot said to Mid Upper ‘Get yourself off I’ll try to land the plane.’ The Mid Upper said, he jumped, as his ‘chute opened, all he saw was the wing dropped off with that the plane went straight into the ground, both killed. I have always said, I have always tried to find out to find out why this time, he was a bit older than me but had got two daughters. His wife had left Jersey, she was living in a hotel. Where ever he went she was living in hotels. So what she was left with was two daughters, no home to go to. I said I’ll, I always said he should have got decorated but he never did. So that is about all that I can say about that. So anyway when we was, when we were shot down we were taken to just a little village near from where we was shot down. They had seen us coming down so we had no chance of escaping. So they put me into a billet a Nissan hut with about thirty young Germans in. As I went in I was the only one of the crew that at the time, they found. I thought ‘well I am going to get knocked about here with all these lads.’ I had been in there about half an hour, one of them sidled up to me ‘there you are,’ gave me a bit of their ersatz bread. I thought it was awful, I put it in me pocket. Anyway about another half hour went by another young lad came, German lad, could speak, he could speak a bit of English. He just said ‘ me was a prisoner of Americans me look after you.’ With that he gave me a couple of blankets for the night. That is about all I could say about them, they were very good. But even today I still think now that would be December 1944 we were shot down. Even today he said, ah that is what he did say to me, ‘We have,’ when I was in this Nissan hut, ‘you have broken our lines we are now going to push you back.’ I never thought anything more about that at all until after the war. It must have been what you called ‘The Battle of the Bulge.’ So automatically now I often think ‘ I wonder if there are any of these young lads still living today?’ That’s all, that’s all I can say about that one. So after that we, we I was posted to eh, I can’t remember the name where was it, posted into Poland and one night, one morning woke up, right evacuating the camp. The Russians were coming very close to where, to where we were, so we had to, as the Russians were advancing we had to march away from them. So we were on, in the middle of winter, we were marching until about one or two in the morning carried on might have been one or two weeks, I don’t know. But there again I was one of the lucky ones, the last morning we were on the walk we’d get into farm, I’d went into the farm I were in the barn. I was one of the last in the barn and this would be one o’clock in the morning. When I woke up, whatever time it was, I don’t know all I can say it was light, it could have been five o’clock in the morning. There I was laid outside where it was twenty degrees below. I went, I couldn’t, me hands were, I couldn’t get me hands together, me feet was frozen, I said ‘ the only thing if the lads lit a fire.’ Got warmed up within two or three hours we were back on the wa,march again. So consequently we marched and again for another week, how long I don’t know. Once again I was very lucky one day they just piled all our section, our section were piled into rail trucks and how many were in the trucks I don’t know how we got on for weeing or whatever I don’t know how we got on about that. All I know before it took us about a day a day and a half on this truck, finished up somewhere near Berlin. That is when the Russians liberated us which was what I gather, I don’t know. I don’t know [unclear] prisoners. Once again I would be guessing but it was sometime in April time, May. I don’t know when the war finished. But once they, I always remember the Russians coming through our camp knocking all the fences down. There were men and women on the tanks, just the same and I must admit at the time I thought ‘well they are just like a pack a bandit these lot.’ We got on well with them, they didn’t bother with us, we didn’t bother with them. They would not, we were there two or three weeks at least, the Americans sent a couple of Troops to move us and they said ‘ you are going when it is out turn, we will let you know when you are going.’ So we got fed up of waiting, one day we set off from the camp ‘we will make our way to the Elbe to get across ourselves.’ So we [unclear] a mile down the road next thing we got, the Russians were in front of us back to the camp ‘ you go when we tell you.’ Consequently eh why I know a bit about the time there eh when they did allow us to go we got to Brussels, we got a bit of money, we got showered and everything, money we had a night out in, in Brussels. Consequently when I got back home my second birthday was May the 23rd 1945, So but, so consequently I didn’t get back for me twenty first, I didn’t get back until after me birthday which would be after the 23rd 1945. Consequently I was one of the last prisoners back so I got indefinite leave. So indefinite leave I was posted, well I was in Bridlington, got posted to Scarborough so I was backwards and forwards from Brid to Scarborough for about three or four months. Finally when the war finished they decided aircrew you could [unclear] aircrew but you could only go as ground crew. I just had to come out, I came out of the forces. So that’s about all I can tell you, that’s about it in a nutshell. That’s about all I could say. My Pilot was one of the last to leave Jersey before the Germans occupied Jersey. He was on the last boat to leave, his wife went with him, a young girl, went with him. They got married before they [unclear] over to England and where ever he was posted, Phil, she was in the hotel somewhere. She followed him around so there she was when he got shot down she was stood there on her own with two kids and that’s why I think he should have got married. The main thing of all so consequently I knew Phil only five months of my life and for seventy odd years I have never forgotten him [appears upset].
MJ. You shouldn’t you don’t have to worry, that’s part of it you see.
TSB. Yeah and all that I can say is that a marvellous lad, man, fellow.
MJ. Do you remember his full name, do you remember his full name, do you remember his name?
TSB. Phillip.
MJ. Do you remember his surname?
TSB. Picot that all it was and consequently I mentioned the two daughters and his three aunties all the rest of the family have all died. But the daughters have married very well they are very happy. Two lovely families two and two and eh three aunties I think they have all lost their husbands. But they are all lovely people, lovely people.
MJ. Went to London for your medical ?. [?].[unclear]
TSB. Yeah I can’t think [unclear] I know I went from Kings Cross [unclear] I walked from Kings Cross I can’t remember where it was now but I nineteen, as I say about eighteen to nineteen I was twenty three ‘40 to 1942 I should think would be when I came in forces, long time [laugh]. But eh no at least I have often said eh you have got your memories haven’t you, they are worth a lot your memories. That is why I get so sentimental with Phil my Pilot because as I say I only knew him five months. We were very friendly, we were very very friendly. Not many days gone bye without I think something about him.
MJ. What made you so friendly, what what ?
TSB. I don’t know, just the crew, I think during the war you you, fact, you you made up as a crew, seven of you and I think they tried to keep that crew as separate as they could. So in other words eh anybody lost they weren’t missed as much, they look after themselves because each crew was more or less, they look after themselves. So whenever we went down to the pub the seven of us went out together eh at least most nights of the week, five or six but we always stuck together all the time we were flying. Your mates, you were what you call mates as simple as that. In other words at the end of the day unless you were lucky, you died together. But eh I say I have these thoughts many a time but I am very happy and [unclear] I have had a marvellous life, marvellous life. As I say one of my old aunties I used to see her ninety five or so, she fell down stairs, I have not forgot she turned round to us and she said ‘Stuart I don’t want anybody to live as long as I have lived,’ she said ‘ I am not ready for going yet’ she lived till ninety seven well I got to ninety two now and she was definitely the eldest of all of my family. If I could get to ninety eight whither I do or not, grace of Gods is that. Eh but if I get to ninety eight I shall finish up as the eldest one in the family that’s it.[laugh]. But she was a right battle axe was my auntie, she taught me a lot and I still think of her at ninety seven anyway I’ve got to ninety two whither I get to ninety five by the grace of God, you don’t know, you don’t know. One thing certain and a betting man and I used to like betting on the horses and that as a betting man one certainty is we all know we have to die sometime. It’s a good job we don’t know when. We do we all know we have got to go sometime. And I say when I talk about luck if I get to a hundred very good but whither I do or not you don’t know. There is a lot of luck in life as well you know some people are born lucky and some are [unclear]. And I don’t know about you, you had an accident didn’t you. Was it motor accident you had then?
MJ. Em I’ll make sure this is on, go on.
TSB. After the war my mother, well during the war my mother got a telegram eh, just missing. So she went berserk, demented, crackers then of course shortly after that, presumed killed. So that she is worse than ever then about a month after that somebody came dashing into mums shop at Hilderthorpe Road End Bridlington saying ‘Nellie, Nellie, Stuarts alive, Stuarts alive.’And how they got to know that, not from the Air Ministry it was given over the news by Lord Haw Haw that Flight Sergeant Boynton is now a prison of war in Germany. That’s the first time my Mother new I was living. And it wasn’t, she didn’t get it from the RAF or the Ministry, Lord Haw Haw made it over the news one night, one day that’s first thing, first time she knew I was living. [laugh] killed presumed dead, it was a totally different thing when she knew I was still living you see.
MJ. On behalf of the International Bomber Command I would like to thank Warrant Officer Stuart Boynton on the date of the 24th of June 2014. Thank you very much my name is Michael Jeffery.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stuart Boynton Interview
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-24
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABoyntonS150624, PBoyntonS1512
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
During 1939 Stuart left grammar school and joined the Air Training Corps. After about half a year he volunteered for air crew and was accepted. He and his girlfriend were married in February 1943. Stuart was posted to South Africa working on Ansons and about a year later was posted to Llandwrog in Wales. His next postings were to RAF Finningley, flying in Wellingtons and to Holland dropping leaflets from a Halifax. From RAF Finningley he went to RAF Lindholme, RAF Hemswell and RAF Elsham Wolds. Stuart described his first operational trip as absolutely horrendous. Most of the crew’s trips were then to the Ruhr and the German steel works in Essen. After that they did another ten or eleven trips. During the last trip the crew had to abandon the aircraft when it was shot down and burst into flames. All but two of the crew (one being the pilot, Phil Picot) baled out before the aircraft hit the ground. Stuart was captured and taken to a hut which housed about 30 Germans, but he was treated well. Stuart was detained in Poland. Their camp had to evacuate during a winter night as the Russians were advancing. They were marching for two or three weeks before being taken to a camp in Berlin by rail. They were liberated and eventually Stuart was posted to RAF Scarborough. He came out of the at the end of the war and said he had had a marvellous life.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Poland
South Africa
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Wales--Carmarthen
Netherlands
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1943-02
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:23:24 audio recording
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bombing
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
military ethos
pilot
prisoner of war
propaganda
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Llandwrog
the long march
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/129/40/PFlowersJ1502.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/129/40/AFlowersHJ150602.2.mp3
f58403692c6da41dbb74bf1dcbd8b1fe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flowers, James
H J Flowers
Horrace James Flowers
Harry James Flowers
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. The collection concerns the wartime experiences of Flight Sergeant Horace James Flowers, a rear gunner with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. The collection consists of one oral history interview, a propaganda leaflet and nine photographs. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by James Flowers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Flowers, HJ
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HJF: My name is Horace James Flowers. I’m known as James. I am recording my, I served in the RAF for four and a half years from 1944 until 1947. I attained the rank of flight sergeant and flew, and served with 50 squadron and 44 squadron, 50 squadron at Skellingthorpe and 40 squadron, 44 squadron in Tiger Force at a number of squads, at a number centres, stations. I’m recording this for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 2nd of June, er, 2nd of June 2015 in, at xxxxx Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire. Yeah. I was born on the 9th of 10th, 9th of the 10th 1924 in a small village called Huthwaite in Nottinghamshire. I remained in Huthwaite, remained in Huthwaite during my education which was only secondary modern. Secondary modern. I then left school at fourteen, 1939. That sounds bad doesn’t it?
MJ: That’s alright.
HJF: I left school, I left school when I was fourteen. That was 1939. I became an apprentice butcher and loved the job. I absolutely loved it and if it hadn’t have been, hadn’t have been for the war, I’m certain I would have remained in that trade for the rest of my working life. However, Sutton in Ashfield area, Huthwaite and Sutton in Ashfield area rapidly became an area, a training area for a battalion of troops. And also there were Yanks at er, at Kingsmill Hospital and there were the paratroopers at Hardwick Hall five miles away. They was the elite and they used to come in at night time and the village had, all the village halls had been turned into dance halls so the town was thriving at night time, with hundreds probably thousands of, of soldiers coming in to be entertained for the night. It was so exciting. Now, the paratroopers were special. They were elite and when they used to come in they used to create skirmishes in the, you know, to a teenager it was so exciting and at the same time my brother had joined the navy and he was he was in, in, he was stationed at Brightlingsea at what they called [unclear] sorry [unclear]
[pause]. Yes.
HJF: German U-boats used to, used to speed in and torpedo any, any ship that was in the area. At the same time, at this particular time I had a girlfriend whose brother was in aircrew and he was a wireless operator and he used to come home at the weekends and I used to listen to his stories about his fly, what was happening while he was flying. This really stimulated my interest so I just had to get to it, get involved. Now, on the 18th of February 1943 I attended the, enlistment section-
[pause]
On the 18th of February 1943 I attended the recruitment section, recruitment place at Mansfield to be given a medical for aircrew which I passed A1. How excited I was when the medical officer told me that I’d passed A1. Not that my excitement was allowed to last long because shortly after the recruiting officer called me in to his office to give me the bad news. Now then, this is, ‘I’m very sorry to tell you, you can’t be accepted. We can’t accept anyone who is in a reserved occupation.’ I was completely devastated because I’d took a year to get in. I pleaded for them to change their mind, ‘Sorry you can only be accepted if the authorities release you from your reserved occupation.’ To a teenager desperate to volunteer this was terrible news. It felt as if a bomb had been dropped on me by the recruiting officer. My factory manager showed no sympathy at all. He firmly informed me that unless I was medically released I would have to remain with them until the end of the war. The problem was that I needed to be A1 to be accepted for air crew and unfit to be released from the reserved occupation. How do I get around that? Continuously I racked my brain to try and think of a way that I could overcome this problem. Months went by and I began to despair. It seemed as if my chance of joining the RAF had gone forever. At last I had an idea. I wondered, will it work? No matter whether it did or not I just had to try something. So with my heart in my mouth I arranged an appointment with my factory doctor. Attending the appointment I showed the doctor all the spots on my face, and telling him that I considered that the heavy fumes of the machine grinder on which, on which I was working was giving me dermatitis. I then requested that I should be released from this work. My case was so thin and I knew it but I had to try something. I then had to listen to the doctor giving me a real dressing down. How awful he made me feel. He ended his lecture by saying, ‘You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Men are dying for the likes of you.’ Feeling very subdued I then quietly said, ‘But doctor, I only want releasing from munitions because I volunteered and been accepted for air crew. The RAF won’t take me if you don’t release me.’ With my heart in my mouth I waited as he fixed his gaze on me for what seemed an eternity. He looked me straight in the eye. Then without another word he reached for his pen and signed my release. As I got up to leave the surgery he leaned forward and shook my hand and wished me luck. All these problems had taken a year to resolve. Is that?
MJ: Yes
HJF: Now, having reached my ninetieth year I can’t help thinking how much slimmer my chances of surviving this terrible war would have been if I’d been allowed to leave my reserved occupation in 1943. Although I knew that being a rear gunner was a very dangerous job with a very high casualty rate, so much so that rear gunners were named Charlies and that’s another name for stupid fool, it didn’t matter to me what others thought. This was the way I wished to serve my country. Yeah, so that goes on to my “Tail End Charlie’s Story”.
MJ: Ahum
HJF: This was the title I gave to my book which I’ve, which I’ve had produced, “A Tail End Charlie’s Story” ‘cause I think that fits the bill. Right, on the 6th of March 1944 I reported to the induction centre at Lords Cricket Ground, London along with hundreds more recruits for entry to the RAF. Lords Cricket Ground was used during the 1939 ‘45 war as an induction centre for air crew. A roll call, a roll call was made during which, to my astonishment, a second HJ Flowers’ name was called out. It was then that I first met Henry James Flowers. Henry told me that he came from a village called Bargoed in South Wales. From then onwards we became constant companions. We remained together during basic training at RAF Bridgnorth after which we were posted to RAF Stormy Down for air gunnery training. Fortunately, we were kept together during flying training and in actual fact ended up serving on both 50 and 44 squadron, squadrons. Now, ok, recruitment before I get on to?
MJ: You can put it whatever way you like.
HJF: Does that sound alright?
MJ: Yes it’s fine. It’s superb. I mean I know exactly what you mean when you said that London had had a right bash of it.
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: I mean, my nan got bombed out twice. You know, nothing left.
HJF: We got friends, we’ve got a friend that lost everything twice. Absolutely everything.
MJ: Yeah, yeah.
HJF: She lived near where I was stationed yeah.
MJ: ‘Cause the road that they lived in doesn’t exist.
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: And so on. You know people don’t-
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: Realise this sort of thing. Are you ready?
HJF: Yeah ok. After disembarking from the troop train at Bridgnorth railway station we formed up in threes. Shouldering our heavy kit bags we began the long march to camp. The last mile was up a steep hill. As new recruits, unfit, with no marching experience at all, all carrying a heavy kit bag the formation rapidly turned into a gaggle. By the time we reached the camp everyone was on the point of collapse. Next morning, after the recruits had been formed up on the parade ground the NCO in charge of the parade informed us that we’d be confined to barracks for the entire six weeks - square bashing, ‘You will not be allowed in public until you can be a credit to your uniform.’ From that moment on we spent every minute of every day drilling and exercising. My muscles screamed out from the strains. The course seemed never ending. Much to my surprise the strain became less. I was obviously getting fitter. Not content with keeping us hard all day we were also given guard duty at night. On Saturday and Sunday a percentage of recruits were picked out to stand guard throughout the weekend. It was just the luck of the draw as to whether your name would come out. By the end of the fourth week I was badly missing my girlfriend Eunice so despite the ban on boots, new boots, new recruits leaving camp I began to make plans. Now, having been on guard duty at a sentry box on the edge of the wood at the rear of the camp I knew there was a way in and out. Those on guard duty were given instructions to arrest anyone there but be that it may I let loads of them through expecting them to make the, make the favour, if I, if I needed it. I noticed. Now desperate to return home I was willing to risk anything. So after duty on the fourth Friday I slipped out of camp by the back way and began thumbing lifts. In uniform they came very easily and with a matter of hours I was back home again. Early next day I walked the two miles to my girlfriend’s house. This was the first time that Eunice had seen me in uniform and I knew that I’d created a good impression. We had a lovely day and a half together. I can still remember going for a walk that Sunday morning along a very attractive country walk known locally as Skegby Bottoms. The sun shone brightly as we sat there. I was at peace with the world. I wanted it to go on and on and on. Late Sunday night I successfully re-entered the camp through the back. Through the woods. In no time I was back in my billet. The moment Taffy saw me he exclaimed, ‘Your name was called out several times for guard duty over the weekend.’ ‘Oh dear,’ I thought, ‘Blimey I shall be on a charge on Monday morning’. Sure enough I was called off the parade ground and told to report to the commanding officer. Shaking like a leaf I stood to attention in front of him. ‘Sorry. I didn’t hear my name called out.’ Not impressed, he said ‘Fourteen days jankers and do it again and I’ll throw the book at you.’ Next day I reported to the cookhouse in full pike. Just my luck to be the only one on jankers, jankers at the time to peel the thousands and thousands of potatoes needed to feed a camp full of hungry airmen and then to wash the pots that had to be used for meals. Gosh it was hard work. You may have thought that all this effort made my weekend worthwhile. I’m in no doubt at all. It was.
Now then, what did I get to? 3rd of, 3rd of June 1944 see us arrive at Bridgnorth for flying training. Now this training was on Avro Ansons. It had one mid upper turret and we used to fire at drogues that used to come by with a, with a Spitfire travelling a drogue alongside us. And quite honestly, quite honestly it was I think, I think the pilot was, of the Spitfire, was in more danger of us hitting him than us hitting the drogue. Anyway, when, when we finished this course, at the end of this course I managed to get a day’s, a weekend off so I travelled home to see Eunice. She was in the Land Army near Grimley and I remember as I arrived at the, at the hostel, at the hostel Eunice was telling me about the, about someone who was getting married. One of the Land Army girls getting married. And I could feel that this was the, that there seemed to be a longing in her voice which suggested to me that this was the right time to once again, for the hundredth time ask her if she’d marry me. And so as she turned to me I said, ‘Well shall we get married then?’ and she said, ‘Yes, let’s.’ I’m not joking with you I could have fallen through the floor. Anyway, we decided there and then. She said, ‘What are you doing now?’ I said well I’m going now to Husbands Bosworth for a ten week course on OTU training and she says, ‘Ok when will that finish?’ Well we calculated it out that it would finish about October the 14th. She says, ‘Ok we’ll add a week to that. We’ll add a week to that. We’ll get married on the 21st of October.’ Not for one minute did we think the things that could happen in a flying training. So naïve we were. Anyway, a week before, two weeks before the October the 21st flying training, all flying training was cancelled through bad weather. We didn’t fly for nearly eight days. Comes the 20th, comes the 20th of, of October and I’m getting married the next day. I’d still got four hours flying to do that morning. Anyway, by sheer luck we got the flying training finished, finished by dinnertime. We then needed to, to get cleared from the station, and of course collect all our gear because we’re moving to another, another station. And, and we’d got, in those days, today if you wanted to get cleared from a section they do it on computer, can do it in five minutes. In our day we used to have to go to every section to get our chitty signed, mainly on foot. Fortunately, Taffy managed to borrow a couple, a couple of bikes. He was going to be my best man so he’s coming with me. We circulated and of course there’s a tremendous area in, in, on an RAF aerodrome and we circulated the area on these cycles and I’m certain that everybody, every section knew we were getting married because as we were, the next day every section and as we, the next day, and as we came in they immediately signed my chit. Bless them all. Anyway the admin section was closing at 5 o’clock. We arrived there at five minutes to five. The admin, the officer then cleared us from the section and, and he says, ‘Ok, right, you can go now. Report to RAF Wigsley on Monday the 23rd.’ I thought, bloody hell, two days. We then had to start [laughs] we then had to start our journey. Now in those days, in those days there was very little transport. We had to, we had to cadge lifts we had to catch buses, local buses, train journeys, local train journeys. It took us all night. We didn’t arrive in Sutton in Ashfield until half past eight on the Saturday the 21st. Having been awake all night I was absolutely shattered. Anyway we walked out of Sutton in Ashfield railway station and Eunice lived a mile to the right and I, and I lived two miles to the left. Taffy walked to tell Eunice we’d arrived. I walked the two miles to Huthwaite to, to my parent’s home. Now there was so much happening. The wedding was planned for 2.30. There was so much happening I never got any rest. I was absolutely cream crackered. By, I remember, I remember we were in, as we got in, as we got in to the taxi turned up to St Mary’s Church at Sutton in Ashfield and I says to my mum ‘Oh I can’t.’ ‘Go on, go on, ‘she said, ‘Oh no. You’re here now. Go on. Get going.’ Anyway we got into the church and I’m not joking I stood at the altar and I was absolutely asleep on my feet. I can’t explain how tired I was. Anyway, after a while suddenly there was a thump in my ribs and I opened my eyes and said. ‘I will’ and it was back to sleep again and quite honestly that’s all I remember of my, of my, of my wedding. And then photographs. The photographer wouldn’t take any photographs at the church. He insisted that we went down to his studio which was a couple of miles away and then he only took, would agree to take two photographs. One of Eunice and I and the wedding group. How different it is these days. Wedding photographers dominate the wedding and take millions of photographs and charge a tremendous amount of money. They do, don’t they? Anyway, Eunice was late when she arrived at the, at the church. She told me later, she said as the taxi drew away from her house a funeral appeared. Now it’s bad luck for you to go past a funeral. That’s what they said. So, quickly the taxi driver changed direction, changed direction to, to avoid it. Lo and behold they were just about to turn up the drive to the, to the church it was quite a long drive two or three hundred yards long and another, another funeral appeared so quickly he turns around and went back again and made another deviation. Well, she says she thought this a sign our wedding wouldn’t last. Well sixty nine years, seventy years later I think probably her premonition was a little bit wrong.
[laughs].
Fortunately, the Sunday, Sunday, a telegram arrived at my home to tell me that I’d been given eight days leave. So, so we didn’t have to report to Wigsley until eight days later but I want to go back a little bit now to my flying training because quite honestly flying training on Wellington bombers, it was a marvellous experience. Dangerous. Always exciting. Mostly enjoyable but quite honestly we were like kids playing with big new toys and we couldn’t get enough of it. Now, many things happened, happened, that quite honestly, that could, we could have bought it there and then. I remember one instant. One instant comes to, comes to mind. This was a training flight up to the north of Scotland and, and this was one for the first night trips that we had. Now, navigation in those days was very, very difficult because they didn’t have radar, the navigator didn’t have radar. He had to use his maps and they used to even use the stars and, and even used to ask us, ask us for things on the ground so that was how primitive it was. Anyway, we flew up to the north of Scotland. It was six and half hour trip and when we got to the north of Scotland we were due to turn, to turn starboard to come down the North Sea but instead of telling us to turn starboard the navigator told Skip to turn port so instead of travelling down the North Sea we were travelling down the Irish Sea. In fact we were rapidly going towards bloody America [laughs] and extended the flight trip quite a long way. He said the reason why this happened was because he accidently pulled his, we were flying above twelve thousand feet and he accidently pulled his, his oxygen cylinder thing out, connection out so he, but that was his story. Anyway, we goes down the North Sea. I remember we got back to, we got back to the Husbands Bosworth area and I remember looking down. It was absolutely, early hours of the morning, it was absolutely pitch dark. You could not see a thing on the ground and Jack the navigator says, ‘Ok Skip. We’re over base.’ Skip says, ‘Can’t see anything.’ So he says, ‘Ok, dog leg.’ so he does a five minute dog leg, comes back again and he says, ‘Right Skip. We’re over base.’ And when he says that there’s a chorus of voices says, ‘You’re up the spout, you’re bloody up the spout we can’t see anything.’ Ok, another dog leg. We did another dog leg and another dog leg and then when we gets to the fourth one there’s a voice, the flight engineer butts in and says, ‘Hey. Hey, we’ve only got, you’d better pull your fingers out, we’ve only got four minutes of fuel left.’ I was sitting, I was in the rear turret listening to all this going and quite honestly my ring was beginning to twitch. I thought to myself, ‘bloody hell if they don’t do something about it we’re going to crash’. So I switched it on. I say, ‘Skip why don’t you call somebody up?’ He says, ‘Oh yes.’ He then calls out the base. The base called in the, the aircraft codes, signs and immediately lights, the aerodrome lights flicked on straight beneath us. Navigator, nav, had been right all the time. We made an emergency landing. We taxied around this, we taxied round, around the perimeter. We turns in to, turns into our bay and as we turned into the bay, before we were in, the engines stopped. That’s how close we were. Ok now then. I’ll go forward now to after my wedding ok.
MJ: Yeah.
HJF: Are we still going?
MJ: Yeah.
HJF: After, after the wedding I reported to, to Wiglsey. Now, once again we, one, one time comes to mind we had a complete and utter cock up on Stirlings. I remember we were corkscrewing, corkscrew starboard, corkscrew port and the Skipper was saying to me diving starboard, diving starboard, climbing port, climbing starboard, rolling port, so on. The corkscrew. And in the middle of this cork, and this Spitfire was attacking us, was attacking us from behind and I was giving a running commentary on, on him coming in and all of a sudden the aircraft levelled out and a panicked voice came over the, came over the intercom, ‘Put on parachutes, jump, jump, jump.’ And I thought, ‘bloody hell, I can’t believe this’. The next second, ‘Put on parachute. Jump, jump, jump. I can’t hold it, I can’t hold it, I can’t hold it.’ I thought to myself ‘bloody hell there’s something happening I can’t see’ and I thought to myself, I thought ‘I’ll have a go’. So I drags the turret around to the beam, pulls on my slider, green as grass I was at the time. Now with experience I’d have opened the door and just flopped back outwards but green as grass I dragged myself out of the turret outside and I was standing outside and the wind was terrible. You can imagine. We were twelve thousand feet, travelling two hundred miles an hour and I’m looking down. I remember standing there with one, with my feet on the edge of the turret, one arm’s holding the top of the turret and I looked down and cows in fields looked, looked like flies. I thought, ‘Bloody hell I wonder if my parachute will open.’ Anyway, I thought to myself I’ll have a go. So therefore, I thought, I started, I released one hand and took, took, began to take my helmet off and quite honestly it was, there was so much noise outside I could hardly hear anything. All of a sudden I heard a faint voice and I didn’t care what it was it I thought, that’s somebody shouting something. It took me twenty minutes to get out but five seconds to get back in. I was back in like a bloody flash and I held my hands to my ears and it was the flight engineer. We’d got a, we’d got a extra member of the crew that time, he was a tour expired extra flight engineer and he was shouting, ‘Don’t go. Don’t go. Don’t go.’ So, right, well what happened? When we got down as we came down to land I was so stressed up with this thing as I climbed, as I came out of the turret into the fuselage I just asked myself, I just had to know whether my chute would have opened. So I immediately, I pulled the rip cord and my parachute spilled out into the fuselage. It cost me two and six pence to have it, now that’s a lot of money. When you think it’s only two pounds a week for me and I was giving a pound to my Mrs that was a lot of money to me but I didn’t care. It gave me the confidence that at least, at least it opened. Now, when we got out, when we got out I say, I says, I says to Skip, ‘What happened?’ He says, ‘Well’ he says, ‘We were diving,’ he says, ‘We were diving and climbing and rolling in the what do you call it,’ he says, ‘And all of a sudden a window just at the back of my head, unbeknown to me, flew out.’ The window had got, on the inside, had got a lead weighted curtain and as it, as the window blew out it sucked this lead weighted curtain out and he says it just started banging on the side of the fuselage bang, bang, bang, bang he says, ‘I suddenly heard this bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang tremendous noise’ he says, and at that precise moment by sheer coincidence the instructor, flight engineer, the bloody fool, sitting at the side of me, the starboard outer oversped. Now, the standard procedure is to pull the nose of the aircraft like climbing a hill to steady it down. Now, instead of just poking the Skipper or, or switching his intercom on which was at his mouth and saying what was happening he immediately dragged on, dragged as hard as he could on the controls to lift. Now, the Skipper at the time because he was hearing this banging noise was trying to keep the aircraft straight and level and at the same time the flight engineer, and they were pulling against each other and I’m not joking it was a complete and utter cock up but I’ve often thought to myself what did that bloody Spitfire driver think of me when he saw me standing outside, climbing out, he must have thought I were doolally.
[laughs]
Another thing happened whilst we were in flying training. We were doing the corkscrewing. All of a sudden all four engines cut out. Quick as a flash Skipper slammed the aircraft in to a vertical dive and kick-started the engine. Fortunately got them going, fortunately we got plenty of height, kick-started them. By golly that did make your heart flutter [laughs] and then our final training, training trip with, on Stirlings we had an emergency landing and we had, we had to make an emergency landing at Woodhall Spa, the home of 617 of all places, and as we, as we touched down all of a sudden the Stirling swung off, swung off the runway and headed straight for flying control. Now the Stirling was a massive aircraft and, and the cockpit, when the cockpit, when it was stopped, when it was stationery the cockpit was level with the windows in flying control and we, we careered across the, across the, the grass and stopped about a couple of foot from the, from the flying control windows and Skip said he could see flying control people running away from the windows in panic and when we stopped he says, he switches on, he says, ‘Flying control, ‘he says, ‘Can you see where we are?’ and a droll voice, a dry voice came over, ‘Yes’.[laughs] Anyway, the bonus for this was we spent the night at Woodhall Spa and we were, we were able to spend the night in the mess and we were able to mix with those elite airmen, the 617 people. It was absolutely wonderful. Anyway, the next morning we flew the thirty five minutes back, back, back to base at Wigsley and that was our last training trip, flying training trip. The next day we went to, we transferred to RAF Syerston for Lanc finish school which we spent two weeks there. At the end of the two weeks we were being moved to squadron. We were now fully trained. Now, for some reason we, on the 24th of January 1945 we, we boarded a RAF transport to take us from there to squadron. For some reason and I don’t know why we were taken to RAF Balderton for the night. Now, we were absolutely dead beat when we got there. It’s a bit sexy.
[laughs]
Absolutely dead beat so we went to bed very early. Now, we were in a Nissen hut with about twenty beds and there was entrances both sides. Now, fast asleep, late on, I don’t know, about midnight, all of a sudden there was a door opened the other end and a couple, excited couple came in and they obviously didn’t know there was anybody there. Short time later the excited talk, sexual. [laughs] and this went on and on and on and on. Anyway satisfaction came in time and they crept out laughingly and after they’d gone a quiet voice says, ‘Did you hear all that?’ [laughs] It goes without saying that fit aircrew fully trained wouldn’t miss a thing like that. It certainly brightened my night up. The next day we were a, to 50 squadron Skellingthorpe. We arrived at RAF Skellingthorpe on the 25th of January 1945. Now, the atmosphere, there was quite an atmosphere on training, training, on training stations but it was nothing like this. There was that feeling like an electric feeling. There was so much bustle and things going off, watching, actually we were nearly month before we did our first operation but we, all right? Seeing aircraft take off, disappearing, new aircraft coming in, the wild, wild parties that were in the mess. The atmosphere was absolutely wonderful. Now as I said we were a month, we were doing training during the time and I remember wonder, wonder if, if I’m going to be up to it because you never know do you? Anyway, it was the 5th of March, the 5th of March by the time we, we did our first operation and what an operation. What an eye opener. Now, I remember we walked into the, we walked into the briefing room, and The excited chatter and then all of a sudden the briefing officer came in quite pleased and deathly silence instantly. Your target for tonight will be Bohlen. Bohlen. Apparently, I found out, it was going to be a ten hour trip. Your, your route will be passing the Ruhr, in the Ruhr, in the Ruhr 3 Group will be attacking the Ruhr. In that area expect to see enemy fighters attacking in pairs. One from above and one below. If one gets above, if one gets beneath you they will shoot you to pieces. So be careful. Beware. Anyway, briefing finished and we’re standing outside. They’re all chatting all excitedly together and I’m talking to Flight Lieutenant Ling’s rear gunner and I can’t remember his name but I knew that he’d been, he was getting towards the end of his tour. I says to him how are things going, what was the flight like? Obviously, obviously I was quite uptight and he said, ‘Oh don’t worry, there’s nothing to it. Nothing to it. And I said something to him which I’m not going to tell you about which made me think, made me think ‘You’re not taking it seriously enough.’ He said, ‘Oh’ he says, ‘Don’t worry. I’ve never seen, I’ve never seen a fighter at all.’ Unbelievably, we came, we came across our first Messerschmitt less than four hours later. He say, ‘Don’t worry. There’s nothing to it’ and I thought, anyway they got the chop on the next trip, the next what do you call it, you see. Anyway, I remember going out to the aircraft at Skellingthorpe and the tension in me was absolutely sky high and I remember it didn’t seem to take us long, didn’t seem to take us long before we were taxiing out and as we were taxiing out I was looking around and there was all, I’m certain as I remember 61 squadron were also going that night and there were all these aircraft taxiing around the perimeter. The atmosphere was absolutely electric and all above, above, above all above us we could see the Lincoln cathedral in front of us and all above we could see heavily laden bombers gradually circling up, circling around. The tension inside me just went just like that. I was ready for it. Anyway, we turns on to the peri track, taxies up to the runway, waits our turn, turns on to, turns on to the, turns on to the, on to the runway. Skip calls, ‘Brakes on. Full power.’ And then, ‘Right, brakes off’ and, and we began to surge forward and alongside the, alongside the runway was a line of ground staff waving us off. What a wonderful take off. What a wonderful send off. Anyway, this was the first time that we’d been in a, in a Lancaster with a full bomb load. We’d got fourteen thousand pounds of bombs on and two thousand two hundred gallons of fuel. It was as much as any aircraft, Lancaster aircraft could carry in those days. I remember we were surging along, we were surging along, the vibration, this was the first time I’d heard the engines on full throttle right through the gate. The aircraft was absolutely, all the fuselage was vibrating with the tension of it. Anyway, as I, as I remember one two five was the one, was about the speed that you used to take off. I remember engineers started to call out one twenty, one twenty one, one twenty two, one twenty four, one twenty five and then Skip dragged the aircraft and you could feel the fuselage vibrating as he was fighting to get the aircraft into the air and then we had another problem. The Skellingthorpe runway was aimed straight at Lincoln Cathedral on top of that hill. Now that’s like a pimple today but to us in, in 1945 it was a terrible object to get over and we used to have to be banking while still at stalling speed. We used to be banking to miss that, well, I say ‘bloody cathedral, oh God’ and then when we got to a thousand feet it was such a relief. Anyway, I remember, I remember gradually climbed up. Our operation height was twelve thousand feet. I remember circling around. There were hundreds of aircraft. I think there were about two hundred and fifty aircraft involved in that operation. They were oh wonderful sight, wonderful sight gradually, circling around getting up to height and then a green light, Very light came from came out of one of the, the leading aircraft and we immediately began into a bomb, into a stream and we started to head out for Germany over the North Sea. Now, gradually, we’d set off at half past five at night, March and it was getting dark, getting quite dusk and as we set out, as we set out over the, over the North Sea gradually the light disappeared and so the aircraft, the aircraft, gradually, my night vision was developed. It used to take you twenty minutes for your night vision to develop and, and gradually all you could see was just, you could see Lancasters when they were the image of them when they were very close and you could see the sparks of the engine and we used to, we used to, we’d been told, warned about these twin fighters so we were swaying from side to side so we could look straight beneath us so we wouldn’t be caught out and I remember we’d been flying over the North Sea and were now entering, entering, enemy territory for the first time. The tension built up in, the adrenalin. I should say adrenalin building up inside me and I remember I was looking, it was now almost pitch dark, although it was a moonlit night it was still dark and I remember watching this, watching this Lancaster drift slowly underneath us, about twenty or thirty feet beneath us and it had just drifted underneath us. I could just see the sparks from its engines and just as he drifted there was a tremendous explosion just a short distance behind us and the explosion, the light split in half, then the next second, two, two seconds later there were two tremendous explosions. Two Lancasters rammed each other and both exploded in mid-air and then it was back to complete darkness. It hadn’t, the shock, the shock it hadn’t taken me long to realise the difficulties of being on operational active service but you know sadly fourteen air crew, airmen had lost their lives in that second but the shockwave was, it was so close to us the shockwave came right through our aircraft, violently vibrated us and quite honestly I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had blown us down. Anyway, we carried on. We climbed up to twelve thousand feet. Now, it was a moonlit night, a moonlit night and the clouds, the clouds looked like a rolling sea. It was so picturesque. The clouds were up to ten thousand feet, we were two thousand feet above and it looked so picturesque. It was lovely and I remember my concentration was absolutely sky high and all of a sudden I saw something which could have been a fly on a window, it was just a slight movement right down deep, deep on, on the starboard side and I thought to myself, bloody hell a fighter. Can’t be. Who said he’d never seen a fighter? Yeah, I thought, anyway it was at that moment that I made, through inexperience, something which could have been, could have been fatal to us because I should, all my, all my training, I should have in actual fact immediately called and, and warned the crew what was happening. Nevertheless, despite this mistake I automatically aimed my guns at it. Gradually this object moved gradually astern and when it was dead astern at ten thousand feet gradually it started coming up. Now when it got to, when it got level with us the image of the aircraft filled my, filled the ring on my gun sight and it was at that moment that the hundreds of hours that I’d spent viewing, viewing pictures, silhouettes of, of fighter, of enemy fighters, fighters on screens in training paid off because I recognised it a Messerschmitt 109. Immediately, without, without a second thought I pressed my, pressed my button and gave it a prolonged burst straight at the fighter and I watched my, I watched my tracers go straight in it. At this fraction of a second I immediately switched on and shouted, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Dive, dive, dive.’ And the Skipper slammed the aircraft straight into a, into a vertical dive and he’s shouting me, ‘You mean corkscrew. You mean corkscrew.’ But I didn’t. I meant dive because there was no deflection required because he was absolutely dead astern. Anyway, I watched my tracers go straight into it, straight into it and the fighter immediately went straight down as if out of control straight into the cloud. I’m convinced now that I shot it down but of course rules do not allow you to claim anything when you don’t see the ground and we were at ten thousand, the clouds at ten thousand feet so therefore that’s but I’m convinced that I got him. Anyway, we carried on to the target, this was another couple of hours RT silence and all of a sudden, all of a sudden a voice, RT silence was broken. Now, a voice came over as calm as I’m talking to you, ‘Control to Link One how do you read me?’ And it was the, it was the voice of the controller who I feel certain was Wing Commander Stubbs, a man I had a great respect for. ‘Link One to control. Loud and clear. Control to Link One go in and mark the target.’ Ok. Right, carry,’ I listened to this conversation. We’re gradually, now we’re quite some distance from the target but gradually now the pathfinders are now beginning to drop their flares so the sky’s beginning to light up so I’m beginning to see lights in, lights in the sky and gradually as we are approaching as we are getting nearer and nearer the target. I’m listening to the conversation of the controller and the Link One now when everything was done and everything had been marked with satisfaction controller says, ‘Ok. Ok Link One, go home, go home.’ Then he called out which I’m certain was Bandwagon. They called the bomber stream Bandwagon, ‘Hello Bandwagon,’ and that was our call sign, ‘Hello Bandwagon. Come in and bomb the target. Bomb red flares,’ and he was giving instruction to which flares to bomb and when he’d finished all that he says, he says, now, ‘No flak. Watch out for fighters.’ So, anyway, we approach the target and just before the target, just before we reach the target all of a sudden a single engine fighter which I’m certain was a Messerschmitt 109 suddenly made a run at us. I immediately, now I was listening to the bomb aimer and Skipper beginning to give instructions for our bombing run and our instructions was that you should not corkscrew during that time. We were taught to be quiet so immediately I aimed and fired. Calamity. The back of my gun sight dropped out and a white light there, I’d been five hours in pitch darkness, and this white light bomb sight bulb was right in front of me. Now, it only took me seconds to put it together but twenty minutes for my, for my night vision to come back and during that time anything could have happened. I couldn’t have done a thing. I could hear what was happening and all the talk and I couldn’t see a thing. What happened to that fighter I will never know. Anyway, we went on our bomber run and, and I could hear the bomb aimer saying, ‘Left, left, steady, steady, steady. Ok bombs gone.’ Now, the bombs used to drop at about a thousand feet per second. We were twelve thousand feet so twelve seconds later he says, ‘Photograph taken.’ Now, immediately Skipper slammed the nose of the aircraft right down. We went straight down a couple of thousand feet straight into the cloud and we stayed in those clouds for hours. Anyway, we came out of the clouds eventually and then lo and behold as we came out of the cloud over to our, over to our side I can’t remember if it was port or starboard there was a bloody Lancaster flying on with all its lights on. The stupid buggers. With all his lights on. We scooted away from it as quick as we could. So anyway we got back to our area where the cathedral, over the cathedral. Now, Skellingthorpe, Scampton and Waddingon, their circuits almost intertwined around the cathedral, more or less. Now, when we used to come over the cathedral you can- now you can imagine everything was visual so therefore there were loyal scores of very, very tired, tired aircrew so all, all desperate to get home, desperate to get home so there was a tremendous danger of collision and another thing, another thing, the night before this, the night of the 4th , 4th of March, three intruders had shot three Lancasters down in the circuit at Waddington and one at Fulbeck so this had immediately filtered through us so instead of relaxing as one do after, after being in the turret for nigh on ten, eleven hours my concentration as we switched our landing lights on, we just used to have landing lights while we were in the circuit, and I remember as we switched our landing lights on about, about twenty aircraft close by and they must have been in different circuits switched their lights on. Now, I remember I was, my concentration was sky high and I remember thinking Skip calls twenty degrees of flap, a hundred degree of flap and I was all the time searching all the way around thinking to myself I’m not going to be caught out by an intruder because this was the dangerous, you’re like a sitting duck then. We came in to land we stopped in dispersal all the twelve hours of tension drained out of me. I thought to myself ‘bloody hell and this is only the first one’. And that was my first operation. Yeah. Another interesting operation was the one to Lutzkendorf which was on the 14th of March 1945. There were two hundred and forty five Lancasters involved and eleven Mosquitos. Eighteen aircraft failed to return. Never even reported in the paper and that’s nearly two hundred people it’s just, yeah, anyway. Anyway, took off about ten minutes to five. I remember we, we flew past the Ruhr and once again rear group, 3 Group were attacking the Ruhr and I remember as we passed by I could see the fight that was going on. I could see flak shells bursting in the air. Tremendous. I could see air to air tracer bullets from, from bomber to fighter. I could see bombs dropping and I thought bloody hell we’ve got another, we’ve got another two hours to go yet and then we continued a short distance away and now there was another problem. We’d been warned that there was a fighter, a fighter aerodrome, a night fighter ‘drome in this area which had a light shining from its roof, from the top of flying control so that, so that we knew from one that there would be, there would be fighters, night fighters in strength in this area and this light was on specifically so they could stay in the air until the last minute, down, refuel and be up again. Now, I remember I suddenly saw this and the adrenalin was such, I thought to myself God the night fighter are bound. All of a sudden I saw the airfield had been strafed. The light disappeared. Obviously, it must have been one of our aircraft. One of our aircraft. I know full well that putting the light out didn’t, didn’t make much difference to the fact that fighters were around but boy it did relieve me. Anyway, we carried on to the, we carried on to the target and once again, once again, I can’t remember the controller it might have been Wing Commander Stubbs but he went through the same procedure, went through the same procedure. I remember him saying at the end, ‘No flak. Look out for fighters. Watch out for fighters’. This was our fourth trip and the tension was beginning to build up in me as we were going through the target and I remember without me intercom switched on I was listening to the, I was listening to the bomb aimer saying, ‘Left, left, left, steady’ and I was shouting, I was shouting in a loud voice, ‘Drop the bloody thing. Drop the bloody thing and let’s get out of here.’ Anyway, after what seemed an interminable length of time he said ‘Bombs gone.’ Skip immediately slammed the aircraft down into a dive and disappeared from the, and as we as we left the target I thought to myself, ‘thank God, we got away with it’. Little did I know. Now, I remember we’d left the target, we’d been gone probably ten and fifteen minutes and I could still hear that controller over the target. ‘Bomb green, the green flare,’ do this, undershoot it, do this, do that. It was absolutely inspirational. He must have been, he seemed to have been over the target hours. Anyway as I’m listening to this left from the target about approximately fifteen minutes when all of a sudden a fighter flare burst straight above us. From complete darkness it was like switching the light on, an electric light on in a pitch dark room. The shock of it made me sink deep in, deep in to my, in to my turret. My seat. Mind you, immediately my mind started working like lightning and I, looking out of the, looking out of, I searched the area. I searched the area all the way, all the way. I searched the area all over and sure enough high on the starboard side I could my left I could see an FW190 coming in fast dragging all I’d been looking I hadn’t been turning my turret around so as quick as I can I’m dragging my turret around. I didn’t have time to aim. So, immediately I got anywhere near I pressed my, I starts firing, my gun starts rattling away I’m dragging, trying to drag my tracer, tracer bullets into it and I’m watching it. Then all of a sudden with this, this aircraft coming in fast I felt rather than saw something on my, deep on the starboard side and forcing myself to take my eyes off this aircraft I had a quick glance to the right, to the right, and there deep down, deep down on the port side. It’s my right but it’s the port side of the aircraft, deep down on the port side was a JU88 almost underneath us and I thought, bloody hell. Immediately I realised that if he could get underneath us he was going to shoot us to pieces so I stopped firing at him, drags my turret around and as soon as I can, as soon as I can I began firing at this JU88 and immediately, immediately they both of them broke away. Now, they played cat and mouse with us for twenty six minutes. Now, that might not seem a long, a long time but as each, each attack only lasted about ten seconds. How many times they came in I don’t know but anyway Lancasters, Lancasters didn’t have any power assisted controls. The Skipper was corkscrewing continuously for forty minutes. The physical effort on him must have been absolutely terrific. Anyway, the tension inside me remained after. I didn’t realise they were twenty six minutes. After a time, after a long time with my tension, with my concentration, still sky high they disappeared. They must have decided that, that, you know, either run out of fuel or they realised they might as well go for an easier target. Anyway, the navigator, I only know it was twenty six minutes because the navigator told me later but when we got back I remember the relief as we passed over the English coast. It was absolutely fantastic. I know we weren’t safe but the relief to be over. It seemed so much comfort to be coming over, over this country. Now, when we, when we, after we came in to land I found out that all ten thousand rounds that I’d supplied to my rear turret - I’d fired every one. There wasn’t one left. So if we’d have had another attack by one of those fighters I couldn’t have done anything about it. That was as close we were to disaster. Phew. And sadly, sadly Flight Lieutenant Ling and crew did not return from this, from this operation and I’m not surprised. Well I shouldn’t say this but, no I won’t say any further. I did think that the rear gunner was getting a bit blasé and probably he wasn’t doing what he should have been doing but I don’t know. I can’t say anything more about that. But that was my fourth operation.
Another interesting operation was a daylight operation to Nordhausen. There were two hundred and forty Lancasters involved. Now during briefing we’d been told that the SS troops had been transferred to Nordhausen to protect Hitler. Now, this was what made it interesting with thoughts that we might be bombing Hitler. Now, we didn’t have any flak or fighters to contend with but all we had was problems. Now, I remember we took off. Generally speaking most of my operations in fact all of the other operations we used to take off from, from Skellingthorpe and go straight out to the North Sea. On this occasion we were going to travel south, south and meet up with 3 group aircraft and, and, and travel to Nordhausen with them, you see, which, which meant we were going to drive past the London area. Now, we’d been warned at briefing be careful near the London area. Their ack ack gunners don’t like strangers, unidentified aircraft flying over. They will fire first and ask second so beware. Anyway, having taken off in the early hours of the morning it was still absolutely pitch. 2.30 we took off. It was still pitch dark as we went by, went by the London area and I remember as we arrived there, there were absolutely hundreds and hundreds of searchlights shining up and quite honestly we were so close to them I thought, I was really on tenterhooks, because I thought bloody hell, thinking about the fourteen thousand pound of bombs underneath us and those, those twitchy ack ack gunners. Anyway, I was looking down, all of a sudden Skip slammed the aircraft in to a vertical drive. Now the g-force on me was tremendous. It drew me, stretched my body up and my body, my head hit the top of the fuselage with a bang, the top of the turret rather with a bang and just at that precise second, now you’ve got to remember that I had no perspex at all in front of me, so, therefore, therefore the open air was just there and just as that happened a Lancaster aircraft flew just over and I swear to this day that if I’d have put my hand out I could have touched that aircraft. Another one of our nine lives. Anyway we carried on. We met with up 3 Group, over Reading it was, and we drifted out over the, over the, on to enemy territory. I remember we were so widely spaced out well, we were used to flying at night-time, we didn’t need to be in a gaggle when all of a sudden there was a voice came up, RT silence broken and it was obviously the fighter leader controller, fighter leader and he shouts up ‘Close up. Close up. How do you expect me to bloody protect you?’ Anyway, we got to Nordhausen and boy did we close up. Our operational height was about twelve thousand feet as far as I could remember. I can’t remember. Somewhere in that region. But two hundred and fifty aircraft then from being miles apart suddenly homed in together in to a thin line and I remember there was aircraft all the way around us, almost touching us. Now, I didn’t mind the ones at the side or the ones below or the ones straight above us but I was leaning forward in my turret and looking up. The ones I was concerned of one above in front that I couldn’t see because I thought to myself they’ll be dropping bloody bombs on us and I’m looking at them when all of a sudden, all of a sudden a full load of bombs missed the back of my turret with this, with a fraction. Almost touching us. Ten, ten one thousand pound bombs and a cookie. Now, they go down like lightning. Fifty foot beneath us was a Lancaster. The first, the first thousand pounder hit this fuselage right in the middle, right, just at the back of the mid upper turret. I cringed, expecting it to explode but lo and behold the bomb went straight through the fuselage and disappeared, continued down. The next, the next thousand pounder hit the middle of the wing and I still couldn’t believe it. I’m still cringing again and it bounced back and bounced off. Now the cookie, which was a contact bomb, they must have had err, you know biometric things that didn’t explode above five hundred feet or something but the cookie was a contact bomb. It missed the side of the fuselage by a skin of paint. Anyway, I remember the, the aircraft disappeared and there was a lot, there was a lot happening. I forgot about it. Anyway, by sheer chance at the end of the war I was listening to Canadian troops embarking on to the ship to go home and, and the person being interviewed was a pilot and it was an interesting story and do you know he went through what I’ve just told you. It was the, it was the pilot of this aircraft and he said, he said, and it was so pleasing to know, that they’d staggered back to the North Sea and dropped their bombs and got, and they survived the war. Anyway, anyway we were coming over the North Sea about, about ten thousand feet and all of a sudden I saw two Lancasters drop right down to zero feet and I thought bloody hell they’re going in. They’re going in. And all of a sudden from the back of one of them I suddenly saw foam appear and it was like watching a motorboat swing, speeding along and this foam behind, I can’t remember, two engines, two of the engines, this foam was behind it for about four hundred yards when gradually it picked up, climbed up and I thought to myself, ‘oh they’re ok. They’re alright’. Anyway, by sheer coincidence four days later when we returned from an operation we were diverted to Spilsby of all places, 44 squadron which I eventually finished up on and we were able to get out of the aircraft to have a walk you know and have a stretch and I was walking by this aircraft which had got props bent and all the props on one side. I think it was just on one side [laughs] I think it was just on one side. They were bent almost double and I, and there was a ground staff working on it and I said, ‘God, what happened to that aircraft?’ He said, ‘The silly buggers,’ he says, ‘This bloke and another bloke coming from an operation a few days ago, they were playing about to find which one could get closer to the sea. This silly bugger dragged his props in the water. Nearly drowned his rear gunner.’ I thought to myself, ‘God, how did they manage to keep the aircraft flying with damage like that?’ Anyway, he said they were being court martialled. I don’t know. Anyway, and that was that.
[laughs]
Another very interesting operation was a daylight operation to Hamburg oil installations, Germany on the 9th of April 1945. During this operation twenty five jet fighters ME262s attacked the bomber force. This was, I believe, the first time that any fighters were ever used during any war, first attack. Anyway, there were, there were, there were fifty seven bombers involved. 50 squadron, 61 squadron I think we got twelve and something like that, 61 squadron and 617 and 9 squadron. We were to, we were to drop, we were to drop thousand pounders on the oil installations and 617 and 9 squadron were to drop a tall boy. I can’t remember if eight thousand or twelve thousand pound bombs on the, on the submarine pens. Now, the thing was that because of the weight of the Tall Boy they’d taken out of the Lancasters, 617 and 9 squadrons they’d taken away the bomb doors and had actually taken off the mid upper turret to lighten the aircraft so to be able to carry it ready to take off and because of this we were, we were instructed that we were to fly in a gaggle and fly as quick, as close as possible to support them. Now another thing the apparently 309 squadron, a Polish squadron flying mustangs, would escort us and 65 squadron were also taking part. Now, we took off at about well 14.48 I believe it was. The weather was perfect and I remember our operational height was twelve thousand feet. Now, I remember we were passing over, we were passed quickly, over, over the, over the North Sea and I’m thinking to myself now Hamburg was a very, very dangerous place. A very important place to Germany. Still is. Still is. But because of this over the war, during the war they’d built up a tremendous defence and if you had any aircraft attacking there we could have heavy losses so we knew that we were in for a difficult time when we got there. I remember passing over, over Germany and all of a sudden every so often the flak was bursting, shells were bursting shells were bursting around us but quite honestly I never gave them a thought. You know I was used to night, night bombing where the flak was a bright light but I never gave as I say, probably I should have done. Anyway we got to, got to Hamburg, near to Hamburg and I rotated my turret. I can’t remember port or starboard side but we were coming up and turned square to the right over Hamburg.
Other: Can somebody come in here?
Going back a little bit I remember as we were going over the, going over the North Sea it was a completely cloudless sky, brilliant sun and I remember thinking to myself where are those bloody fighters supposed to be, that are supposed to be protecting us? Three squadrons were supposed to be protecting us but every so often, every so often we saw right in the distance swirling around oh I thought, ‘Oh lovely. There they are.’ Anyway we carried on. I remember as we, as we, as we entered, got over mainland Europe gradually every so often we’d hear the phuf phuf of flak shells at the side of us which I just ignored. I don’t know a bit complacent probably but I just didn’t care about them. Didn’t take any, anyway we gets to Hamburg and Hamburg, I’m just, I’m repeating myself now. Hamburg was a very special place. Was then. Is now. And during the war years they’d built up a tremendous, tremendous defensive force. They, they could send up a box barrage of flak in an instant and I remember we were approaching, approaching Hamburg and I can’t remember which side we were. Left or right. But I leaned forward, leaned forward and I looked and turned my turret to the beam and leaned forward to look forward and I could almost see in front of us and I could see the target as we were approaching her and I’m not joking I have never seen flak like it. We were, we were, I think we, I think we were, our height was we bombed from about sixteen thousand feet but up to around our bombing height there was a complete black cloud of flak shells bursting out and I remember thinking to myself, bloody hell we’re never going to get through that. Now I’m just going to divert a little bit because we were at the back of the fifty seven aircraft and a friend of mine on 61 squadron, Ted Beswick, he was in the front aircraft and he was telling me later he says they were watching this predict, this flak. I forget what you call it. Predicted flak. It gradually approaching him and he said until one burst right in front of the nose and he says and, and, and parts flew through the front through the bomb aimers position and, and, and badly injured the engine, the bomb aimer. Anyway, we carried on to the target. We turned on to the target and we, I’m not joking with you, I can’t describe what it was like going through the flak. It was absolutely frightening you. I was thinking, I say, frightening. Anyway, believe it or not we went, we got through the target unscathed. We dropped our bombs and I understand it was a successful bombing. Anyway, we left the target and I could see aircraft. I feel certain I could see aircraft around, some damaged but nobody shot down. Anyway we’d left the target and we’d been left a few minutes. I then turned my turret around and I thought to myself, bloody hell, we’re back marker. Sitting duck for any fighters. So immediately I switched on. I said, ‘Skip, Skip we’re back marker. Sitting duck for any fighters.’ He says, ‘Ok. Ok.’ So he immediately shoves full throttle on and gradually, gradually we moved forward so we could see aircraft behind me. That made me feel a bit better. Now, a short time later and I can’t remember how long, all of a sudden twenty five ME262s attacked the formation. I only saw five but I know from later reports it was twenty five but I saw five aircraft coming along the, coming along the ground level and I, I called, ‘Skip Skip I can see, I can see five small aircraft on almost at ground level.’ God, I’ve never seen aircraft travelling so fast. They, they, they began to climb. I says, ‘God they’re climbing faster than I’ve ever seen any aircraft dive.’ Within seconds they were up to our operational height. They levelled out and came straight at us canons blazing. Canons blazing’s straight through us like a dose of salts. Now, one of them come straight at us and I’m firing as hard trying, trying as hard as I could ‘cause it’s like lightning is happening, trying to drag my tracer bullets into it and it came so close I thought to myself it’s going to ram us and I’m not joking he then swung in between us and another Lancaster by my side, by our side and, and I could see the, I could see fighter, I could see the fighter pilot as close as I can see you now. Anyway, I’m swinging and firing my turret and all of a sudden I realised that I’m firin my, still firing my bullets straight through this Lancaster at the side of me. I lifted my arms like lightning off, off my, off my off my controls and, and, and I thought to myself bloody hell, I thought to myself might have shot down my, the aircraft but of course you can’t shoot an aircraft down by firing straight at it you have to fire in front of them but that was fortunate because it was a 617 aircraft. I don’t know what would have been said. Anyway, we, we’d left the target, we left the target and only a few seconds later after they’d attacked us all of a sudden by the side of us the aircraft, the back marker aircraft exploded, broke in half and began to drop straight down. Now, when it had dropped about a thousand feet I saw although the rear turret would immediately lose, as it broke in half, lose, lose any control we had we had a handle which we could turn and swing the turret around. Anyway, after about a thousand feet I saw the, this is another story I’ll tell you in a bit which I’d forgotten to tell you. Forgotten to tell you. I watched this rear gunner drag himself out of the, out of the turret and fall away and I thought to myself oh thank God, he’s, thank God he’s, going to get away with it. He was a friend of mine. Anyway, the parachute opened and a few seconds puff it exploded in flames and then I had to watch this friend of mine, friend of mine struggling, drop away, gradually drop away to his death. Now, I’ll tell you a little, I’d forgotten to tell you but when we went out to the aircraft, when we went out to the aircraft after we’d had the briefing you all race out and you all try to get on to the buses as there were buses and lorries. Now, the buses were a lot of comfort so therefore you raced to get in those. Now we raced in and I sat in the front seat and, and sitting at the side of me was Norman, Norman Garfield Fenton. Friend of mine. I say he’s a friend, he was a squadron friend not that I knew much about his private life other than that he was from Kettering. But I says to him, ‘What aircraft are you in? He says, ‘Fred. F Freddy.’ Now F Freddy, we did four ops in there so it gave us, gave us chat, you know, something to talk about. Anyway we got to the dispersal area and, and climbs out. All of us rush to our aircraft and climbed aboard and did our pre-start checks and afterwards there was still an hour or so to go. We climb out of the fuselage and, and, and went Taffy and I went, went and sat down, sat down on the grass and a few seconds later Norman walks across and we sat down and there we are. I think we took off at 2.30 so it was quite warm and where we sat there chatting away talking about what we were going to do. I remember I do believe he said he’d got a little child. I can’t remember but I think he said he had a young family but we were chatting about what we were doing and four hours later I watched him die. You know, it really did affect me. I mean, at night time you just disappeared, didn’t have the same effect on you but knowing, I recognised the aircraft as it dropped away as V and F. I could see it clearly so I knew this was Dennis, Dennis struggling and nearly got out and I had to watch him fall and it did affect me for quite a long time and poor Dennis and Flying Officer [Berryman] who was his Skipper and, and one of the other crew are buried in, in Hamburg but oh dear it did affect me for quite a long time that. Ok. Now one thing I’ve got when we got back to briefing. When we got back to briefing we turned around and told the briefing officers we’d been attacked by jets and they says not possible. Not possible. Not possible. There’s no, there’s no airfields around Hamburg for jets but little did we know, little did we know that jets, the Germans were taking off from motorways. Ten out of ten for them for innovation. But apparently the, the powers that be killed the story because they were so fearful of the effect it might on morale, of morale of our aircrew. But then I want to go back a little bit now to Ted Beswick. He saw all, I only saw five but he saw all twenty five. Now, one of them came at us came at them and he shouts port corkscrew, corkscrew, go, go but of course they couldn’t because they were in gaggle. Anyway when the, when the ME262s had attacked they began to swung around and began to go around to reposition they could only do one or two attacks because of limited fuel but one drew up by accident right on, right on their starboard side I can’t remember starboard or port side. Anyway he immediately fired and saw his tracer bullets go straight into it, straight into it and immediately, immediately the aircraft went straight down as if out of control and he watched it spiral down. Ted is convinced that he made a kill, he made a kill. Of course he couldn’t claim it because once again he didn’t see the ground. But they had another incident they did. They had a hang-up bomb. They couldn’t get rid of it and try as they might they couldn’t get rid of it so they started to go back and try to get rid of it in the, in the North Sea. They still couldn’t get rid of it so they decided to bring it back, bring it back to Skelly. Now as they came in, in to land there was a bang as they touched down and the bomb dropped on to the bomb doors. Now, they pulled up immediately at the end of runway, got out of the aircraft, scooted away from the aircraft called up and a short time later, a short time later well some time later along comes the ground staff, gingerly opens up the, opens up the, winds open the, the bomb doors, bomb doors. Two of them stands there, catches a thousand pounder and then, you know, we have got a lot to thank those air crew people, ground staff people for. Wonderful, wonderful unsung heroes. One, one interesting operation was to [?] in Norway. I remember there was, I can’t remember how many aircraft, several hundred aircraft involved. But we’d been in we’d been told that we were to fly at zero level up the North Sea and I remember in the half-light seeing probably a couple of hundred Lancasters flying, almost touching, almost touching the waves. It was so exciting. I loved it I did. And I’m certain Skip enjoyed it just as a much as I did. Anyway, we got to the, we got to the, got to Norway and, I can’t remember how long it took us. Anyway, we climbed up to bombing height which would be, it would have been about ten to twelve thousand feet. Now, I seemed to remember one gun, one heavy gun but if I’m to believe records, records say there was no, no flak but I seem to remember one gun as we approached. One heavy gun. Anyway, we came in, we came in to bomb and, and we’re virtually on our bombing run and I’m listening to the Skip and the bomb aimer conversing when all of a sudden, now, always before when the Skip had had to dive the aircraft had to change direction of the aircraft it had always been a dive. On this occasion it was different all together. All of a sudden the aircraft reared straight up. Now, I remember I’m clinging on to my controls and I was transfixed. I was transfixed and even though my head still thumped the top of the turret because of the reaction of the aircraft swinging and at the same time we used to carry our flasks and sweets and chocolates given to people, aircrew and I remember them coming straight up in the air, straight up in the air and as the aircraft, aircraft levelled they all went straight out of the window and I said oh sod it. I was saving those for the return. But another thing happened. Ass this was happening. I’m hearing a swirl, a swirling noise of machine gun noise coming into my turret. Thousands of bullets was coming along the ducts into the aircraft. Now, I didn’t realise this was what happened but they came in and completely jammed the turret. Anyway, we levelled out. We crept back over the sea and got back home but if anything had happened we couldn’t have done a thing about that. Now, the thing is when I was on that operation, in our billet, in our billet was another crew err if you just give me a second I’ll remember his name. I’ll just get, now this operation was on the 25th, 26th of April 1945. Now, in my billet, in my billet was another crew. Now this crew, they disappeared and I didn’t know what happened so I just, this is when people got the chop things, just used to take there was usually two crews to a Nissan but when they got the chop they used to take, just take their things out. They disappeared. Never heard anything about them. Anyway, last year, last year at our reunion, our reunion a fellow approaches near our memorial. He says, ‘Hello James. Do you remember me? And I says to him, ‘I don’t think so. I can’t remember.’ Well, he says ‘You were in the next bed to me on 1945. January 1945.’ I says, ‘Oh yes.’ I said ‘What happened to you then?’ I said, ‘You disappeared didn’t you?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He says, he said, ‘When you were going on [?] we were on Exodus.’ Exodus operation. Fetching prisoners back from, from Europe, probably Brussels. Anyway, he says, ‘We dropped the prisoners, the POWs, ex-POWs down he said and headed for home and on the way back we crashed.’ He said, the, the ‘We had problems, engine problems and in trying to avoid these houses the wing tip hit the ground and, he says, ‘And it slewed into the ground. My turret was thrown off into, into a field.’ He said, ‘My guns were buried in the ground.’ He said, ‘I was in hospital for a week.’ He said the mid upper turret, the mid upper gunner got away with it he got a broken leg but the rest of the crew were all killed. I said, ‘Oh good God.’ I says, ‘I wondered what happened.’ They just disappeared. So there you are. Made contact all those years later but how did he finally manage? Probably he managed to find me because with me doing so much on our website. I’m better known. More people know me then I remember them. That’s probably it isn’t it. Could be couldn’t it? But an interesting story that isn’t it? There you are.
MJ: Ahum
HJF: Now then. I want to carry on. On the 1st of June, is it on? Switch her on.
MJ: It is on.
HJF: Yeah. On the 1st of June ‘45 we were transferred from 50 squadron to 44 squadron to be part of, to be part of Tiger Force. The intention was to, to, to fly us straight out, quickly out to the Far East. As a matter of fact Okinawa was going to be our base. So we, we went, we transferred to Spilsby. Now, from day one we started doing high level training. Anyway, I can’t remember but it was a few days after we got, one of our trips, it was only one and three quarter hour trips I think it was just about the worst one of all. I remember we’d got fourteen thousand pounds of bombs we were going to drop into dispersal area in the North Sea and as we taxied around all of a sudden, the port, the port inner set on fire. Now, the smoke was coming and filling my turret and I thought to myself silly bugger put your oxygen mask on, puthering in to me. Anyway, rapidly the, the engine was feathered and after a few minutes the Skip calls up flying control and tells them, ‘Engine fire. Waiting for instructions.’ We waited for instructions and a few minutes later the flying control calls, ‘Right, start the engine up. Give it a run up. Take off when you’re ready.’ When he switched off there was a chorus of voices, ‘We’re not bloody going, the stupid buggers, that engine wants checking. We’re not bloody going.’
MJ: Ahum
HJF: ‘We’re not bloody going.’ Anyway, Skipper in the meantime started the engine up. He revs it up, he says, ‘It seems ok to me. We’ve got to go.’ And we kept saying, ‘We’re not bloody going.’ Anyway, we turns on to the, and eventually gets and I’m not joking I was full of trepidation. I could feel in my water that something else was going to happen. Now, anyway we’d just got our wheels off the deck and the starboard outer seized. Now, let’s just think about it. We’ve got a dicky port inner and we got a, a seized starboard outer and we’ve got fourteen thousand pound of bomb. I’m not, that’s as much as an aircraft immediately started to vibrate telling me, telling me she’s going to stall. She’s going to stall. Now, quick as that I thought, my apprehension just disappeared. I thought to myself I’m going to, I’m going to jump no matter what the height. So, quick as lightning I swings my turret to beams, pulls open the doors. like a flash I was sitting outside and there I sat outside listening to, feeling the violent vibrations of the, of the aircraft as it gradually gained speed and height. It took us about thirty minutes to get up to about two thousand feet and while I’m sitting there just thinking about myself there our poor old Skipper was at the front fighting to keep this aircraft in the air. What a brilliant, brilliant Skipper. Anyway, we eventually get, gradually the vibration stopped. We got to the dispersal area, drops the bombs as near, as near as we could and returned. That, that trip took an hour and a quarter and it seemed the longest one of all. Good God we were so close and then what turned out to be our final trip, final flight actually for seventy, nearly seventy years as far as I was concerned. We were taking part in a dodge operation. Which, Dodge Operations were returning, returning British soldiers, taking, taking Italian troops back to Italy, to Bari in Italy and bringing British soldiers home. Now, we’d been so many times we used to fly visual. We used to go down to Marseilles, turn left over Marseilles, out over, out over the North Sea to the tip of Corsica and, and, and then make for Rome and over Rome straight for Bari. Now we were so casual about this we used to fly you know, anyway as it turns out the engineer, the engineer used to do a bit of piloting every so often. They used to keep their hand in. Anyway, fortunately the engineer had strapped himself in. Now we were carrying twenty one, twenty one Italians and I was sitting in the fuselage, in the fuselage. I was more or less a steward. Now, we were climbing, we were climbing up to ten tenths cloud. Now it was a very, very stormy day. Very, very hot day. Tropical storms everywhere and as it turned out we were the only aircraft only two of us arrived at Bari. Aircraft were diverted all different places. Anyway, we were climbing up through ten tenths cloud at ten thousand feet when all of a sudden cause safety height over, to cross the tip of Corsica, safety height being eleven thousand feet when all of a sudden the aircraft veered straight up, straight up and we flew slap bang into the centre of cunim, Now the tremendous upward force hit the belly of the, hit the aircraft and flung it straight up in the air. She stalled, dropped on her back and started to vertically drop down. Now, the Skipper standing by the side of the engineer as I say he was, he was, he was piloting was thrown up to the roof and he dragged himself around the, and for a time he thought to himself bloody hell we’re going. I’m going to drag myself back. Then he realised that the flight engineer was beginning to get a bit of joy so he drags himself around the fuselage, the side of the fuselage to a standing position alongside him and there was only single controls in a Lancaster. He then grabs hold of the controls and the two of them used all their strength to pull the aircraft out, out of its vertical dive. Now, as I told you I was in the back of the aircraft looking after these, looking after the Italians. I was thrown up to the ceiling and a water tank that was there for them floated up in the air, floated up in the air and were virtually trapped beyond the fuselage and as I looked, I could look at the back and there was, we’d got a Lancaster wheel in in the back, in the back which we were taking. Probably somebody had a burst tire. They’d left it loose. The silly buggers had left it loose. I watched this, watched this Lancaster wheel do a full circle of the fuselage. It smashed the auto gyro and it went around and it hit the machine gun ducts and right to the side of the ducts were the, were the rudder bar controls and I thought to myself, I was praying that it wouldn’t come rolling towards us when the next second, the next second with a slam I was banged down, banged down on to the floor, banged down on to the floor and I dragged myself up. All the Italians were in a complete panic and without thinking I just slotted the bloke at the side of me, slotted him, knocked him down and said, ‘Lie down.’ I made him lie down. Anyway, then I thought to myself, I thought as I’m standing there I thought to myself, actually I called Skip up. I said oh I think one of these, one of these Italians had pulled the [aerial] controls and we knew we’d lost an aircraft through somebody pulled themselves, their all external inside the aircraft and pulled them up and it had caused the aircraft to crash because it was almost you know in a position where they couldn’t change so I thought that’s what had happened, Anyway, as I’m standing looking all of a sudden the aircraft reared up again but not quite as bad. So I thought sod it I’ll have a look at this. Now our mid upper gunner had been transferred because of the end of the war you see, had transferred so I climbed into his turret and I was amazed. We should have been at eleven thousand feet to cross over safely over the tip of Corsica. We were then travelling along the coastline on the edge of the mountains, parallel. Somehow or other in the process of diving vertically we’d changed direction. Now, I don’t know whether it were luck or whether it was the skill of our pilot but anyway we turned, we were flying along the coast of, coast, coastline. Now then we came into land. Now at Bari, at Bari there was only one single runway. One single runway. And, and aircraft were, aircraft were positioned, were parked either side of the runway. Yanks on the left, yanks on one side and all Lancasters on the other. Now, as we came in to land, another thing, just at the end of the runway was a, was a large quarry and on very hot days, on very hot days used to cause an air pocket above the, right above the end of the runway. Now Skipper might have forgotten that or it might have been just because let’s face it I was stressed up and I was only looking after them, so God only knows how he was feeling but anyway as we came in to land we dropped from about sixty foot straight down. We hit the ground, we hit the tarmac with such a bang and the aircraft reared off, reared off, slewed to, slewed to port and, and coming, taxiing right down, right down just in front of us was a, was a flying fortress. We were heading straight for it. Skip immediately slams port throttle, full port throttle on, slews the aircraft and I could feel the undercarriage bending. Why it didn’t break I don’t know and there we are slewing across to the other side and going straight for the Lancs and he shoved full throttle on the other side and we straightened out and that was it and we levelled out. Now, you might have thought that was enough trouble for one thing but when we were coming up, we stayed there four days and I remember I was standing, we were waiting to return and we were standing about halfway along the runway and there were thousands of troops, thousands. There were hundreds of aircraft and thousands of troops, American and British, and we were watching the first Lancaster to take off and it came by us and it was almost as it came flashing by us it was almost at take-off speed when all of a sudden it turned completely ninety degrees. Now there were four line I think, I can’t remember whether it was three line or four lines but it went through the first ones, first ones, missed all the aircraft but hit another one in the line absolutely broadside and just as it hit its undercarriage collapsed but when it hit it’s props were churning into the side of the aircraft churning, churning. Now, thousands of us ran across thinking to ourself, expecting that there would be many many fatalities, many many fatalities but when we got to the aircraft, when we got to the aircraft there was a great big hole in the nose of the aircraft. Three, three, three soldiers climbed out of the front of the nose and do you know and people were pouring out of all sides of the engine. All sides of the aircraft. Do you know there were thousands of people out but do you know to my knowledge there was only one person, there were nobody killed and one person injured and that was he was injured through flying glass. Absolutely fantastic. I thought to myself this is a bloody mugs game. It’s time I pack this game up. Well I’ll tell you now it was an uneventful trip back to the, back to the, back to England but that was the last time I flew in any aircraft until about 2012.
[laughs] 1.38.08
Now, at the, I now over the years, over the years over the last, nearly twenty years I’ve been involved with the 50 and 61 Squadron Association website. Now, quite honestly I never, until, until I was in my seventies I’d never used a computer. But anyway, anyway I was instrumental in helping, helping, eventually, not for a start in helping to start up our website 50 and 61 Squadron Association websites. Now, I have a veteran’s album. I don’t do hardly anything these days Mike [Connock] does it but until, at our reunion 209 Air Vice Marshall Nigel Baldwin came up to me and says, ‘James, I’ve got a story here, an interesting story which would be good for your veterans album.’ Now, it was then I was interested to, I was then introduced to a person called Chris Keltie. Now -
Other: I don’t want to hear your secrets.
HJF: Yeah Chris Keltie. He then, Chris told me a story which at the time -
Other: Make him at least give you a drink.
HJF: No. No. You’re alright.
Other: At least make him. Now I’m telling you. Go on.
HJF: Oh did, did we bring that cup of coffee in? Did we leave that coffee in there? I don’t think we did did we?
MJ: No.
HJF: Oh bloody hell we forgot. Oh sorry.
HJF: As I say. Chris Keltie. Chris Keltie. He told me a story which at the time I just didn’t believe. I couldn’t believe that anybody, because of my experiences, I couldn’t believe that anybody could do what I was being told but he was telling me that a pilot whilst severely injured and weakened by loss of blood had regained control of an earthbound Lancaster and, and in pitch darkness brought the thing in to land and thereby saved the lives of, as it turned out, three of his crew members. For this he got nothing. Not even get, now I’ll tell you the full story. On the, it’s Victoria stuff. Victoria Cross stuff. I’m not joking with you. It was in July 1944 I can’t quite remember exact date. It might have been the 4th or 5th. Anyway, they successfully, they were bombing a V1 bomb site. It was 61 squadron aircraft. QR D Dog was the aircraft. Bill North was, Bill North, flight lieutenant. He was the flying officer at the time but it was Bill North, Bill North was the pilot and his aircraft was QR Dog. Now they were to, from thirteen thousand feet they were going to bomb the V1 sites. Now, which they were the first aircraft to bomb it and after, as they left the target an FW190 sprayed their aircraft. It blew away the fin, the port fin. It blew away the port fin. Blew away the port outer engine and fuel tank and it also it splattered the middle of the turret. Now, the mid upper gunner, now I used to say it was either between six and eight bullets, non life saving bullets in his body. Unbelievable. Splattered the turret. Anyway, it splattered all the Perspex, the cockpit Perspex and, and the pilot screamed out in agony as four bullets hit him. Two in his thigh and two in his left arm. Now, his left arm one of them hit the nerve and it paralysed his arm so his arm was flailing there. Now, immediately and the aircraft immediately begins, it’s earthbound screaming towards the earth. He immediately gives instructions to bail out and begins to drag himself out to go to the escape hatch. Now, as he drags himself out of the seat the flight engineer who is sitting by his side reaches back. Now, as the pilot had sat on his parachute. Now, but the, but the flight engineer and the rest most of the crew, the rear turret and rear gunner all had clip on chutes now his was clipped on the fuselage. Now, he reaches back to unclip his, his ‘chute off the fuselage, the side of the fuselage and as he pulls it off it’s been shot to pieces by bullets. It’s just at that point Bill was about to drop out of the escape hatch. Quickly he grabs hold of his shoulder and shouts my parachutes gone, my parachutes gone. Now, nobody would have blamed Bill North If he’d have thought to himself nothing I can do. I’m badly injured myself and just to have gone just to continue to drop out but without one second thought he made a conscious decision to drag himself back into his to his controls. Now, the, the landing an aircraft, a Lancaster is a two man job. You need, you need the help of the flight engineer. The flight engineer was frozen with fear. Couldn’t do anything. Now, Bill North, with one hand, his adrenalin must have been five hundred percent I have no idea how he did it but unbelievably with the aircraft screaming earthbound he regains control and in pitch darkness not only did he regain control but in this very heavily wooded area he found, he found a clearing, brought the aircraft in to land from an impossible height at an impossible speed. No, no flaps involved because the bloke couldn’t, the flight engineer couldn’t do anything. Had the presence of mind as he brought the aircraft in to land it tail down so there would be less danger of fuel tank, of fuel explosion and landed and when it became stationery he was so weak from the loss of blood that he slipped into unconsciousness. Now then, as it turned out not only had he saved the life of the flight engineer alongside him but apparently the mid upper gunner and another person, I think wireless operator, were both trapped in the fuselage because their turret ‘chutes had been shot to pieces, so they, as I say he slipped into unconsciousness so they had to carry, carry him, they had to carry him out of the aircraft and as they laid him on the grass at the side of the plane he slipped into unconsciousness and they thought he was dying. Anyway, time went by. The French were involved but I can’t remember who else was involved but in time the Germans came, whisked him into a hospital and he remained in hospital for several months after which he was, he was transferred to a concentration camp and he finished the war, and finished the war in a concentration camp. For this he didn’t get any mention in despatches. Not even a mention in despatches. Absolutely disgraceful. This is, this is, this is VC stuff. Now when Mr Ball when, when Nigel Ball contacted me I, I wrote this story, this was several years before, I wrote his story on my website. Now last year, October during last year the, the sons of, of Bill North, he’d passed away the year before, wrote to David Cameron to thank him for what he’d to done to get the air crew their memorial in London and thanked him for getting the clasp. Bloody clasp. Ridiculous. Anyway, anyway out of the blue, credit to David Cameron. David Cameron phoned them personally. No wrote to them personally and invited to them to come and see him at the, at the House of Commons. Now, they decided that what a golden opportunity this to try and get a posthumous award for their father. So they put together a delegation of about ten people and they wanted a representative of the squadron association to be, to be, to be with them. Now, as to whether I was the only one or not I’ve no idea but I was the person that was invited to go. Now, I travelled down to London and I remember, I remember we, we, David Cameron was wonderful actually. I remember he took us and we were chatting to him in his office and he was chatting to all the party and I couldn’t hear him he was right at the far end of the room and I says, ‘I can’t hear.’ And he says, ‘ok’ and got, upped sticks and came and sat right to the side of me and I’m listening to them talking. Now, quite honestly as I was listening to him you know how people are when they’re talking to someone of higher authority? They, they become meek and mild don’t they? And I’m listening and I don’t hear very well. After they’d been going on for quite some time I thought to myself they’re missing the point so in actual fact I had spoken to him and told him that why I was there to represent the association and I, I interceded. I said, ‘But sir, we’re missing the point of our visit.’ and I says and I then went into detail of this, of what Bill North had done and I says to him this is bloody Victoria Cross stuff and for this he gets nothing. Not even a mention in despatches. This is a complete disgrace and I remember, I remember David Cameron looked set aback and he looks at me and says, ‘Well I don’t know. All the hassle I’m getting here.’ He said in a friendly way. It wasn’t nasty. ‘All the hassle I’m getting here and he says the hassle I’ve had in question time today and he says and it’s my birthday today.’ And I said, ‘I beg your pardon?’ He said, ‘It’s my birthday today.’ I says, ‘It’s mine as well’ and he reached over and he said, ‘Birthday boys.’ [laughs]
[laugh]
There you are but do you know something we had, we had a celebration last year for my ninetieth birthday and, and, and seventieth wedding anniversary and last year. It was in October. October. And last year, about three weeks before our, before our party a friend of ours and I don’t know how he got this phone number my friend answers the phone and this voice says, ‘Hello, this is David Cameron here’ and she says, ‘Oh don’t – tell me another one.’ And he said, ‘No. This is David Cameron ringing from the House of Commons. Can you give me the details of Mr and Mrs Flowers celebrations’ on the, and you know he said, ‘Because I want to send them a letter’ and lo and behold lo and behold on the, on the, my birthday arrives a letter comes, ‘Dear Mr Flowers,’ from the House of Commons ‘I’m writing to you wish you a very happy ninetieth birthday. This is a marvellous occasion and I’m sure you will use this opportunity to celebrate all your many achievements and all you have seen and experienced. I would like to send you, Samantha and my best wishes for a wonderful birthday.’ That was on the 9th of October. On the 21st of October we gets another one. ‘Dear Mr and Mrs Flowers I am delighted to send my congratulations to you both on your seventieth wedding anniversary. It’s a huge achievement to celebrate such a long and happy marriage. A great example to family and friends and your local community. Samantha and I would like to wish you all the best on your anniversary. We very much hope you enjoy your celebrations. Have a lovely day. David Cameron.’ We of course did have the letter from the queen we all know the queen the queen had millions. She can’t do it personally do it you know that’s a secretary but to think that David Cameron made the effort during such political time to ring my friend up to find out details of our celebrations and then to ring us up and send this. As a matter of fact I sent him a Christmas card and he sent me a Christmas card back.
[laughs]
There you are, now, that’s different isn’t it? In conclusion I would like to go back to the time in 1941/2, I can’t remember the exact date, my first sighting of my dear wife. Of my Eunice. I remember at the time I was working on munitions twelve hour shifts a day, week about and I was on daylight day shifts this time and I’d finished at 7 o’clock, cycled home and, and home and quick change and cycled back two miles to Sutton in Ashfield baths which had been converted to a dance hall and as I went in it had a balcony. I went in about 9 o’clock. I climbed the stairs to the balcony and I remember looking down and it was a teeming mass of dancing local people, RAF, navy all having an absolute, and a wonderful band with all the top, all having, and the RAC band was there. It had top musicians in it and I remember I was looking down and I saw right beneath me I saw this beautiful young lady in a yellow and white check dress. I’m not saying anything wrong but she was flitting from one male to, from one friend to another. She was obviously the life and soul of the party and I thought to myself God what a cracker. So, quick as lightning I rushed downstairs and I stood in the background until the opportunity came and I tapped her on the shoulder and I said to her, ‘Can I have a dance please?’ and ‘ Yes.’ And the first time I held her in my arms oh she didn’t have make me quiver and it was the first time that I met my dear wife. [laughs] How I ended up with her I will never know. She was so beautiful and so energetic. She was out every night dancing. There were thousands of soldiers all around training all on the lookout, all on the lookout for, for, for as beautiful women and here I was just working on munitions. Nothing going for me. My chances of making a go with her were very very slim. Anyway, gradually I became a friends. It was two years before she’d call me a friend. But there you are. That’s how I met my dear wife and there we are seventy years later. Love of my life. Still feel as we did as all those years ago. Beautiful woman. Still beautiful woman still beautiful in my eyes. How’s that. As I say I’m in my ninetieth year and I can’t help thinking of my family. Thinking of the time on the 25th October when our first son Ian was born and when he was accidently deaf when he was only thirteen and a half you never get over it, time never heals it. The birth of my second son Richard and when he was accidentally shot in the head by his wife. He was so lucky to have survived. Then my third Phillip born ‘68, ‘58 and to his lovely daughter. She was absolutely beautiful. Passed away when she was two years and nine months. Then there was my fourth son was a whopper when he was born and the, and the midwife says to my he’s the biggest baby I’ve ever had and she said ironically he’s the biggest baby I’ve had as well. Then I think to the stresses and strains and excitement I felt during my aircrew years and the thirty two years as a driving examiner and to the pleasure we felt on the birth of two granddaughters, eight grandsons, fourteen great grandchildren and finally I recall the seventy years that I’ve been married to my dear wife Eunice. I can’t help thinking of all the times I felt like throwing her in the bloody river or burying her with the plants in the garden yet despite all this she still remains the love of my life. Such wonderful memories.
I would like to end by saying that during the time that we, as a crew, were involved in bomber operations we were attacked by ME109s, JU88s, FW190s, ME262s jet fighters, passed through flak you could have walked on, almost touched passing aircraft, almost crashed through fuel shortage and fell vertically from eleven thousand to five hundred feet. Nothing special. Just the normal sort of thing that most Bomber Command aircrew had to put up with during World War 2. Happy days.
MJ: On behalf of the Bomber Command I’d like to thank James Flowers for his interview on the 2nd of June 2015. This is Michael Jeffries, recordist.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Flowers
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Horace James Flowers was born and grew up in Huthwaite, Nottinghamshire. He became an apprentice butcher before being released to volunteer for the Royal Air Force in 1944. He trained as an air gunner at RAF Bridgnorth, RAF Wigsley and RAF Syerston and attained the rank of flight sergeant, serving largely with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. He recounts his experiences on several operations, including Bohlen, Nordhausen, Lutzendorf and Hamburg. He was transferred to 44 squadron in June 1945 as part of the intended Tiger Force and also took part in Operation Dodge. He also discusses how he met his wife, Eunice, and their marriage in 1944, his role with the 50/61 Squadron Association after the war, authorship of a memoir ‘A Tail End Charlie’s Story’ and the occasion of his ninetieth birthday when he received a call from the Prime Minister, David Cameron.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Michael Jeffries
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:58:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Identifier
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AFlowersHJ150602, PFlowersHJ1501, PFlowersHJ1502
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Böhlen
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Lutzendorf
Germany--Hamburg
Germany
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
44 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
fear
final resting place
Fw 190
Ju 88
love and romance
Master Bomber
Me 109
Me 262
military discipline
military ethos
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
P-51
Pathfinders
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
recruitment
Spitfire
Stirling
Tallboy
target indicator
Tiger force
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/785/9340/PTurnerHA1801.1.jpg
ee4d9c570a3678bd6343b3c5957fb700
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/785/9340/ATurnerHA180829.1.mp3
e8342d61f314b839367caf2cfbcc9535
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turner, Bert
Herbert Alan Turner
H A Turner
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bert Turner (b. 1923, 1607412 Royal Air Force). He completed 31 bombing and supply operations as a flight engineer with 196 Squadron. He was shot down twice.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Turner, HA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH: We’re now running. So, we just had Bert, thank you for giving your time up and also to Peter for giving his time up as well. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command. The interviewer is Martyn Hordern, that’s me. The interviewee is Herbert Turner. The interview is taking place at the Tri-Services and Veteran’s Support Centre, Hassell Street, Newcastle, Staffordshire. Also present is Peter Batkin, a friend of Bert. The date is the 29th of August 2018. So, we’ve obviously just, when we’ve asked you Peter, Bert sorry that your date of birth was the 23rd of December 1923. Where were you born?
BT: London.
MH: Whereabouts in London?
BT: 99 Ledbury Road, Paddington.
MH: Paddington.
BT: I think it’s Paddington. I wouldn’t be sure.
MH: No.
BT: It’s either Paddington or Kensington.
MH: What sort of family did you come from? A large family, a small family?
BT: Mum and dad and six kids.
MH: And where did you —
BT: I was the youngest but one.
MH: Right. I’m just opening my bottle of water of here so apologies for the fizz. Had your dad served in the First World War?
BT: Yes, he was in the RAF, in the RFC.
MH: Right.
BT: As it was then. I found a photograph the other night of my dad in his tropical kit for the Dardanelles.
MH: Right. So he’d served at Gallipoli.
BT: Hmmn?
MH: In Gallipoli. The Dardanelles. Wasn’t it Gallipoli, yeah?
BT: Ahum.
MH: James, dad was in Gallipoli as well.
BT: He, yeah, my dad and his three brothers fought in the First World War.
MH: So, what was life like growing up in the 1920s in London?
BT: We were alright. We probably, practically lived in Kensington Gardens and the parks and that. And they say, they say it was the hungry years. I didn’t know. I never went hungry. We always had something on the table. Mum was main cook and that was it. We, I went to school at St Stephens in Paddington. Did all my schooling there from the time I was three ‘til I was fourteen. Then I got a, I started work. I worked at Lyons in Cadby Hall, as an office lad. I didn’t like that. Went to McVities Biscuit factory and I finished up in the London Co -op as a delivery boy until I joined up.
MH: So —
BT: And that —
MH: At that point you were you were sort of like as I say a young teenager just before the war started.
BT: Yeah. Well, we in the Scouts and the Cubs and then I transferred to the ATC. 46F Squadron in Kensington. I’m trying to think. It must have been what? Nineteen 1940, 1939 I suppose, I joined the ATC. Of course, we went all through the blitz. But as, as I remember it all I ever wanted to do was fly. That was the be all and end all. I mean Ball and Mannock and all of those, they were my heroes and —
MH: And where did that come from. Do you know that?
BT: I’ve no idea because nobody [laugh] nobody else in the family wanted it but my my idea was I wanted to go straight in to the Air Force as a lad. A boy. And my mum wasn’t having that. Only rogues and vagabonds were served, went in the Services.
MH: What was your dad’s view having served in the First War?
BT: Dad never, dad never argued with mum. They were both short, small people. Mum was just under five foot and dad was just over five foot. About five foot two. But only slight people. Very. But I can’t remember them falling out. They never fell out in front of us.
MH: No.
BT: I’m not saying they didn’t fall out but —
MH: So so you mentioned —
BT: A pretty, a pretty average sort of life.
MH: Yeah.
BT: It was a family and that was it.
MH: How did, how did the Blitz affect you because obviously you were in London and it’s 1940?
BT: Not a, not a lot. We used to go, we used to go out fire watching at the shop in Barlby Road. We were, we used to go messaging with the ARP and that sort of thing. But it never seemed to, I know it sounds ridiculous but it didn’t seem to affect life.
MH: No.
BT: It, life went on.
MH: Yeah. But you could see the after affects I assume of the raids.
BT: You’d get up in the morning and there had been a bomb here or a bomb there sort of thing and you saw different things I mean, like toilets hanging on a wall and that sort of thing. It seemed remarkable. But my, my life just seemed to carry on sort of thing until I was seventeen and a half and then I went to Acton and volunteered. And mother wasn’t very pleased about that. ‘You’ll go quick enough but —’ she said, ‘They’ll send for you quick enough.’
MH: Yeah.
BT: I said, ‘Yes, but I want to go in the Air Force, mum.’ So, that was it.
MH: Did she have to sign you in at that age or were you old enough to sign yourself?
BT: No. I signed myself in [pause] and mother didn’t speak to me for ages. She didn’t, didn’t want to know. We’d already got, I’d already got two brothers in. One in the Air Force and one in the Army and mum said that was enough. But I said, ‘It’s got to come mum. I’ve got to go.’ So that was it.
MH: And the truth be told you wanted to go though.
BT: I wanted to go. Yes. Oh yes, I was. I thought it was going to be all over before I had my chance. But I went to Acton and volunteered and I had to go to Oxford for three days for, you know I don’t know what they called it, an interview with, and exams. And they told me I could go in as a flight mech and [pause] I could study to be a pilot if I wanted. Fair enough. And they called me up on August the 2nd 1942. I went to, from [pause] went to Penarth for seven days where they kitted us out. And from Penarth we went to Blackpool where I did my square bashing and, in civvy digs. We were there ‘til December I think it was and we marched out to Halton in December ’42.
MH: And that’s when you went to a, to a squadron then, did you?
BT: No. No. That was, that was training school.
MH: Right.
BT: I started my flight mech’s course and they put a notice up on orders. They wanted flight engineers. So we, a lot of us volunteered and we had to go down to London for our medicals and I was accepted. And about February we were posted to St Athans in Wales where we did our flight engineer’s course. And [pause] we had a funny experience there. We were all out on the, not the outside the hangars where the school was for a NAAFI break and all at once somebody says, about four or five hundred blokes stood around and all at once somebody shouted, ‘Jerry.’ And everybody drops to the ground and looked and three, three German aircraft flew across. The only thing was they were wearing RAF roundels [laughs] They were captured aircraft. But that was amusing. And then it was 1943, mother died while I was at St Athan and that was a blow. We [pause] we didn’t get over that. But I finished up, I passed out at St Athan. I think I got about sixty five, seventy percent. It was a pass anyhow through and I got my tapes and my brevet. We moved from St Athan to 1657 Con Unit at Stradishall, just outside Newmarket and while I was there I crewed up and met my crew, Mark Azouz, John Greenwell, Leo Hartman, John McQuiggan, Teddy Roper, Pete Findlay and myself. And we started flying Stirling 1s and we did our day circuits and bumps. Started night circuits and bumps. And we did a couple of circuits and bumps with the instructors on board and the skipper screened, turned around, he said, ‘I’m getting out,’ he said. ‘You take it around for one yourself and put it to bed.’ And my instructor said, ‘If he’s getting out I’m getting out. You’re on your own.’ [laughs] I thought fair enough. Off we went. Undercarriage up and away we went. Anyhow, skipper said, ‘Undercarriage down.’ And the undercarriage wouldn’t play.
MH: And this was the first time you’d flown solo as a crew.
BT: Yes. So well, we did all we could think of which I don’t suppose there was much. Told them downstairs that we were having trouble with the undercart. Anyhow, we eventually, we had to try to wind it down by hand. We got one leg down but we couldn’t get the other one. So, we got one leg down and that was tighter. They decided that we were going to have to land at Waterbeach. Then halfway to Waterbeach they decided the best thing was to land it on Newmarket Race Course. So, skipper put her down on Newmarket Race Course.
MH: And you got the one leg back up again.
BT: One leg up and one we, they managed, we managed to break the lock on the starboard, no, port, port leg and the skipper took her in and we landed and I think she was, she was a mess. And we all got out and climbed out and we were all standing on one of them rings and the ambulance driver came up and looked at us and he counted us and he turned around and, ‘What, nobody hurt?’ And we, nobody had a scratch so that was it. And then we were called in the flight office the next day and wingco was very annoyed. He told us we’d broken his aeroplane. That was, that was the end of that. Anyhow, we got away with it and we finished up we were posted to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham just before Christmas and we did, I don’t know, it was six or seven trips. We did a mine laying to Sylt, Kiel and that sort of thing and then at the time they were busy bombing the French factories for the Doodlebugs and that. And we did a couple of them. And then they posted us away to Tarrant Rushton to go glider towing and para dropping. We went [pause] we went to Tarrant Rushton, we were only there for oh, a couple of weeks, a couple of three weeks as I remember it. It doesn’t, doesn’t gel very easily but I don’t think we operated from there. We, we took over Keevil from the Americans in around about March ’44 and we were glider towing and doing supply drops in France for the SOE.
MH: What sort of stuff were you taking over to the SOE? Did you know what you were taking?
BT: No. No. It was all in canisters or baskets or anything. Occasionally we would have a couple of bods we’d take over. SAS people initially. A lot of them were Poles.
MH: Were there, was those trips quiet trips or —
BT: Sometimes, it was but we did [pause] D-Day came up and they decided that we’d got to, all aircrew had got to fly with sidearms so they issued us all with .38 pistols and you can imagine nineteen, twenty year old kids playing cowboys and Indians. But we woke up one morning and went out to an aircraft and they’d painted the white stripes for the invasion. That was, all came as such a surprise that nobody knew anything about it until it was done. But the mechs were standing on the wings painting these blooming white stripes with brooms. Then D-Day came up. We were ready to go on the 5th. But no. We were ready to go on the 4th and it was cancelled. And then they gave the order that we were going on the 5th and we took the paratroops over D-Day on the, we took off on the 5th you know.
MH: Yeah.
BT: Early morning to —
MH: What planes were you flying then?
BT: I beg —
MH: What planes were you flying then?
BT: Stirling 4s. Yeah. We took twenty paratroops over, dropped them off and that was it.
MH: What was that like that you were flying across then?
BT: Do you know, do you know Peter will tell you, I’ve said this so many times before. It was one of the quietest trips I remember.
MH: No flak. No —
BT: We, we saw barely anything. It, it surprised, it, it sounds ridiculous when you first say it but as far as I was, we were concerned it was one of the quietest of our trips.
MH: And the paratroopers. Do you remember what —
BT: The paratroops went in.
MH: What battalion were they from?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: Do you remember what battalion they were from or [pause] Do you remember what —
BT: No. No. No. No, we didn’t have a lot to do with them. Chatted to them and all this, that and the other, you know.
MH: British I assume.
BT: Yes. Yes. It, it was just another trip. And then we did a trip to France and a delivery for the SOE. Arms and whatever and we got there and when you went on these SOE things all you were looking for is five bonfires and we found it. And when we got there Jerry was waiting for us and it got nasty. First, we went in, dropped what we got, came out of it. There was a light flak gun busy after us but we got away with it and he never touched us and we flew in and checked for a hang up. Well, on a Stirling there’s a step and it’s across along the width of the bomb bay and the bomb bay on a Stirling is three different sections. That’s why it can’t take big bombs. And in this step there was three little glass windows only about the size of a tin. You know, a pea tin top and you held a torch against one end and someone looked at the other and if they could see the torch you hadn’t got, the light, you’d got no hang-ups. If they couldn’t you’d got a hang-up. And we had three hang-ups of containers.
MH: Just hadn’t been released from their old —
BT: They hadn’t dropped. So it was skipper turned around and said, ‘Well, they never touched us that time. We’ll take them back.’ Which thinking about it afterwards was a stupid idea but we didn’t think about that at the time and I said, ‘Well, somebody will have to give me a hand.’ I said, ‘Two of them I can drop myself but the other one’s the other end of the aircraft.’ So, ‘Well, McGuigan can drop the other one.’ So, fair enough. And when you drop them you just pull a bolt back and they drop. But they drop without a parachute. A parachute won’t open for some reason. I don’t know why. So anyhow, skipper goes and we go around and just as Leo said, ‘Drop them,’ dropped a, Jerry hit us and he put the starboard outer out of action, damaged the starboard inner and peppered us a bit. None of us were touched. Fair enough. We came out but the skipper shouted for me and I went up and he turned around and said, ‘The starboard outer won’t feather.’ I said, ‘Well, use the —’ [pause] he said, ‘The starboard’s running out.’ ‘Feather it.’ He said, ‘It won’t feather.’ I said, ‘Oh.’ So I said, ‘Get Pete out of his turret,’ because the torque on the prop on the starboard outer could possibly take the rear tail up. The fin and rudder. So we got Pete out of his turret and just as we got Pete out the props flew off somewhere over France and we flew back. We landed, landed at a place called Colerne just outside Bath. And they were, they were surprised to see us naturally so, but they were flying Mosquitoes and Spitfires. And I remember the CO there turned around and very unpolitely, turned round at the skipper and said, ‘I don’t know whether you’re a fool or a hero bringing this abortion in here.’ But anyhow the skipper got a DFC for it and we went back to Keevil.
MH: What, what was it like? You’ve had, you said your early flights were fairly sort of just dropping mines and that. I take it you’d never been really shot at had you in those first flights before you did your —
BT: Oh, we’d been shot at but not as badly if you know. It was just part of the —
MH: Yeah.
BT: Somehow or another it [pause] it didn’t seem to be a part of the equation that you got [pause] I don’t know why.
MH: And, and so and then you go to drop these supplies off and you go back round again.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And then you get hit.
BT: My point, thinking about it afterwards it was supposed to be a secret mission [laughs] Well, Jerry’s there shooting at you. These blokes have got to pick, down there have got to pick these containers up and they’re not light by any manner of means and disperse and get them off and Jerry’s on the doorstep. So all you’re doing really is handing it to Jerry.
MH: And what, what were your thoughts when the plane got hit?
BT: What can I do?
MH: Did you ever think you’d never get back?
BT: No. It never. Do you know, I can’t remember that at all. In any, I got, in any event I could never think of, it never entered my head that we were going to get hurt. Then after that it was we did a, there was an Operation Tonga as I remember it and it was a massive air drop to the south of France of containers for the French. Free French. That was, I think that was the only time that we flew then with other aircraft at daylight. Then I got married. I married a WAAF on the station. We got married on the Thursday. We had three days leave in London. We got, came, we went back and they shut the gates for Arnhem. And on the 17th of September we took a, took a Horsa to Arnhem and we went again on the Monday and it wasn’t bad. It wasn’t bad at all. The opposition we met was practically negligible. On the Tuesday we had apparently there was Air Ministry issued an order that all intelligence officers were to fly a mission. Well, my skipper was a Jew, as was the bomb aimer and the intelligence officer we had was a Jew so I suppose we would keep it in the family and he decided to come with us and of course they just gave him a helmet with a mic and a, earphones on. No, no oxygen mask or anything. And I used to go up second dickie when bomb aimer went down to the bomb aiming position but he’s sitting in my seat. So I’m halfway down the fuselage and in a Stirling that’s it. You can’t see anything. You’ve got to stick your head out the astrodome to look around sort of thing and flying along quite happily. Go to, got to the [unclear] where we turned in to the target and we were flying along quite happily and all at once, ‘There’s flak over there.’ [pause] ‘There’s flak.’ The skipper turned around. He said. ‘There’s flak where?’ He says, ‘Over there.’ He said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘That’s port.’ He says, ‘And the other side’s starboard.’ ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘And it’s a long way away don’t worry about it.’ I thought to myself things are getting tricky. Jerry’s getting naughty. So I went down and stuck my head out the astrodome. Oh, well away in the distance is a few bursts of flak. We went in and we dropped our Horsa and went back home again. And then we went again on the Tuesday and Jerry got organised and it was rough. We had a rough and we were jocking through this lot the skipper turned around. He says, ‘Flak,’ he says, ‘I wish I’d got him with me now.’ He said, ‘I’d show him flak.’ We got away with it. They knocked us about a bit and we got a few holes in but we were fair enough and we, we got back and that was our thirtieth so we thought that’s it. No more. A rest. And on the Wednesday night they told us we’d got to do another one on Thursday. We’re short of crews. Fair enough. So on the Thursday morning we goes out to the aircraft and the skipper walks along and his scratching cats are missing and he’s got a bar on. What’s this? So, he anyhow, the skipper’s got his commission. Pilot officer. He got awarded a, promulgated with the DFC same day. So, we’re on for Arnhem, Thursday. Go out to the aircraft. Run it up. We couldn’t get revs and boost on. I think it was the outboard inner. One of them was playing up anyway. Doesn’t matter. Couldn’t get it to turn. ‘Take the spare aircraft.’ So you had to move everything that we were carrying to the spare aircraft and the rest of the lads had taken off so we were about twenty five, thirty minutes behind them taking off and skipper said to Leo, ‘Cut corners. Let’s get back with the lads and we can go over together.’ But we got there just as the lads were coming out and we had to go in on our own and it was rough. We got shot up a bit and it happened. And while we were over Arnhem this is a bit cheeky but still I went second dickie. McQuiggan, the wireless op went down the back because we were carrying baskets. Big baskets that had to go out and two Army dispatchers were flying with us and McQuiggan went down the back to supervise that.
MH: Were the dispatcher’s jobs to push the stuff off?
BT: Yeah.
MH: Was that their job?
BT: Yeah. Well, the Stirling had a big hatch at the bottom, in the, at the bottom of the fuselage near the tail where the paratroops dropped out and we used to have to push a, an A frame down and peg it in to stop the paratroop bags wrapping around the elevators. So McQuiggan’s down there doing that and we went through and as I say Jerry knocked us about a bit and we got through and McGuigan come up from the back and I went back to my own station and McGuigan come up and he, he’s covered in blood from head to foot. I looked and I thought where do you put a dressing? And I don’t know, ‘Where are you hit, Mac?’ He turned around and he said, ‘The elsan.’ I said, ‘The elsan?’ A shell must have burst under the aircraft, and the elsan, the chemical toilet is held down by three bolts and it had taken off and it had thrown it all over McQuiggan. And elsanal fluid is the same colour as Jeyes fluid and he’s —
MH: He’s not covered in blood.
BT: Anyhow, we got, we’re flying along and skipper asked Ginger for a course to Brussels. We’re flying on two engines. Well, we’re moving on two engines and I looked out the astrodome and I’ll never forget it. I looked up and there’s six fighters and I thought they were Tempests. And I wouldn’t mistake a 109 for a Tempest. A 190, yes. And I still say they were 190s. The Air Ministry said there were no 190s flying [unclear] Anyhow, they decided that we were going to be their meat and they, they came for us. Well, the rear gunner shot the lead aircraft down. The lead fighter blew up. I saw it with my own eyes. But then they got nasty and skipper gave the order to abandon aircraft and we baled out over a place called Niftrik and we, the Army picked us up. We got landed, four of us finished up in a farm house in Holland and, but they gave us egg and bacon. Then the Royal Horse Artillery picked us up, took us back to their camp, give us a night’s kip and put us in a lorry to go back to Belgium. And just as we were moving off, well we got to a crossroads somewhere or other and the Redcaps, Army Redcaps waiting there. ‘You’ve got to leave this and get out, sir.’ So we got out and we were lay in a ditch for I don’t know and in the finish we, we were walking across a field in Holland and the Americans picked us up and took us in to Veghel. And we got in to a Veghel, we spent the night there. And the next morning the Green Howards relieved that and the paras were coming out of Arnhem and I can’t think of the general, was it who was on the ground but he came out and there was a staff car waiting for him and he had, he went in the side car err in the staff car and before, there were five actually. Another crew bloke I don’t know he was now got in with us and we went in that to Brussels. We spent the night in Brussels and flew back to England the next day. We got in to England on the Sunday. The put us in a coach to take us to the Airworks in London and of course it was almost passing my home so I turned around to the driver and said, ‘You can drop me here. I’m going to see my dad.’ And, ‘You can’t.’ I said. ‘I’m going to.’ I said. So, I got out and I’m carrying a box like a wooden box, a tomato box with peaches and grapes from, and apples from Holland. And I got out the car at the, on the Western Avenue and I stopped a bloke in a car and he took me home [laughs] And I gave him a peach and oh he was quite happy. And I, we lived in quite a big house in London in Chesterton Road at the time and you had to go all round the house and in through the scullery door at the back and the dark passage from the scullery in to the kitchen. And just as I walked up the passage my dad come out of the kitchen and he took one look and passed out. And my brother was with him, he was on leave and he came out and he said, ‘What are you doing here? You’re dead.’ Thanks very much. They’d had telegrams, “Missing believed killed.” Because none of the boys had seen us. Seen us bale out.
MH: No.
BT: I had something to eat. My dad took me to Paddington Station. Well, my dad paid my fare back to Keevil. I never had that money off the Air Force either [laughs] And I’m standing on Paddington station, a sergeant. My trousers were ripped, I’d got no collar and tie, I was wearing a bit of orange supply chute around my neck, got no cap. I was wearing one flying boot and one flying boot that I’d cut down because I’d got an ankle wound and two MPs parading up and down in front of me and clearly they could see [laughs] And eventually they come across to me. ‘Sergeant, you’d best come with us.’ And they took me to the RTO and the RTO officer gave me a bed and they woke me up with a cup of cocoa. Put me on a train for Keevil and when I got back to Keevil of course I’d got no money. I got no money for the bus. One of the airman had to pay my fare. The bus driver wouldn’t let me on the bus without the fare. So, when the airmen paid my fare and I got back to Keevil and I thought well, I’d better go and see the wife, so —
MH: Bearing in mind you’d only been married a few days at that point.
BT: Yeah. I’d been married a week exactly when we were shot down and she’d been told that she was a widow. So anyhow, I walked in, up to the cookhouse and she come running out and the first thing she said to me was, ‘You stink.’ ‘Thanks very much.’ Anyhow, I finished up, I went up the billet and had a wash and had a shower and went to sick bay to get my ankle dressed. Hospital. So they put in the blood wagon and sent me over to Ely. And I’d hopped all over Holland, I’d hopped halfway across England, I got out the ambulance. I had to hop all over the hospital and they x-rayed it and all the rest and, yes. Fair enough. Nothing wrong. Dressed it and put it back and I went back to Keevil in sick bay. Well, my wife had to go in hospital for an operation about three days later so I turned around to the quack, I said, ‘Can I go in the blood wagon to see the wife at Ely?’ ‘You can’t,’ he said, ‘You’re, you’re a stretcher case.’ I thought thanks very much. So we, anyhow we finished up we stayed at, I was in dock for ten days I think and on the Saturday they let me out and I got, I was sent on survivor’s leave. And my wife came with me, and we had to travel from Keevil to Stoke on Trent. We got to Bristol and we had to change stations at Bristol. Anyhow, we got on the train and like all wartime trains it was packed and I’m standing there and the porter slung a case in and of course hit my ankle and didn’t know what it had done at the time of course. But I finished up the journey sitting on kit bags and God knows what. And when we got to my wife’s home my wife took the dressing off and had a look and it had knocked the scab of the wound. So, anyhow, I had my leave and went back and while we were on leave we, they’d moved from Keevil. I think they’d gone from Keevil to Shepherds Grove. And we got, when I got to Shepherds Grove we, I went and reported sick and I’m back in bed again. And anyhow it all went well in the finish and that was it.
MH: Could we just go back to when you got shot down and you parachuted out of a plane had you ever parachuted before? Had any training to parachute?
BT: Never had any training at all apart from someone saying, ‘Well, you put the chute on here and you pull this. Oh no, we never had parachute drill. We had dinghy drill but I never, we never had —
MH: What was dingy drill?
BT: Eh? They used to take you to the local swimming pool.
MH: Baths.
BT: Swimming baths, and they’d throw a seven man dinghy in the water upside down and you wear a flying suit and a Mae West and you’d got to go in there, swim in, swim to the dinghy and turn it upright. It’s quite a job and it was. On the bottom of the dinghy there’s two hand holds and you have to hold these hand holds, pull them towards you as much as you can and then jump on the bottom of the dinghy to turn it over.
MH: Right.
BT: You finish up underneath it and that was, that’s the only dinghy drill we did.
MH: And what height did you bale out at then?
BT: Around about three to four thousand feet.
MH: And did the parachute open straight away or did you have to have a rip cord?
BT: On, on rip cord.
MH: And did anything happen on the way down?
BT: Yes. Jerry tried to kill us.
MH: Would you mind just sort of giving a bit more detail to that?
BT: Well, we all, we all baled out. The rear gunner was killed in the aircraft. The navigator went out the front and I went out of the parachute hatch and we were shaking hands on the way down and a Jerry fighter decided we were his meat and it was very naughty. But he didn’t notice the Thunderbolt behind him and the Thunderbolt, American Thunderbolt shot him down. But they shot the skipper. The skipper was killed.
MH: On the way down.
BT: On the way down on his ‘chute. Well, he was wounded. He died in hospital. So I was told.
MH: And when, when the Germans were flying at you could you feel the bullets whizzing past or, or was you just, is that what —
BT: It’s no good saying yes.
MH: No.
BT: I can’t remember.
MH: But you knew what they were trying to do?
BT: We knew what, as I say the navigator and I, Ginger and I we flew, we dropped together. We dropped in a field together and because [pause] Germans wear field grey, well, we were lying there in a field and there is a grey bloke, a grey dressed bloke dressed, heading for us. And Ginger turned around, he said, ‘Bert, shoot him.’ I said, ‘You shoot him.’ He said, [laughs] ‘I’ve lost my gun.’ And it was a good job we didn’t shoot him. He was a Dutchman wearing one of them navy blue boiler suits that had been washed and washed [laughs] and just looked like Jerry field grey.
MH: So, that point where you dropped down were you, were you behind German lines then or were you —
BT: It was a very fluid situation. Nobody knew who was where or any, if you understand what I mean. There was no front line or, it was all the time I was in Holland you couldn’t say where you were. You were in safe ground sort of thing.
MH: Yeah.
BT: It, one minute you’d be talking to your own Army sort of thing. The next minute there were Jerries but [pause] we saw, we saw a Jerry, a Jerry Tiger tank. It came looking round. Smelling around. But we had nothing to with the job. Didn’t get involved with it.
MH: What was, what was going through your mind then? You’ve been shot down, you’ve been parachuted, the Germans are trying to kill you on the way down, you’re now not quite sure where you are. What was going through this young man’s mind?
BT: I don’t know what was going through my mind. All I knew, all I could say, think was we’d got to get to the Army. We’ve got to find it [pause] I know it sounds ridiculous but I can’t remember being scared. I should have been. I should have been but I can’t remember being scared. At times now I have nightmares but it didn’t seem to work then.
MH: No. I take it you weren’t given any training how to, you know if you parachuted over enemy territory how to evade the enemy.
BT: Pardon?
MH: Were you given any training to evade the enemy?
BT: We were given lectures. You know. What to do and what not to do but it —
MH: And how did that bear out in reality when you actually got there? Did it actually make sense?
BT: It didn’t bear out because there was no one to help us if you understand what I mean. We didn’t, we didn’t run in to civilians. The only time I saw any civilians during that period was when we landed and we were taken to a farmhouse. They took us. We went in to the farmhouse and there must have been the district in this farmhouse trying to, wanting us, getting round to us you know and they couldn’t do enough for us.
MH: No.
BT: But when, once the Army picked us up I don’t, I don’t think we spoke to a civilian until we got to Brussels.
MH: And your ankle injury. How did that, what was that? What had you done to yourself?
BT: Well, the only thing [pause] I don’t know. I was the only one who was scratched apart from Pete. Pete was killed. I didn’t realise I’d been touched until we landed and then when we dropped off I felt it. But whether [pause] the only thing I could think of was a piece of shrapnel. But where it went heaven knows. There was no, nothing there. Still got the scar for it.
MH: I can imagine.
BT: It wouldn’t heal. Once the scab had been knocked off it wouldn’t heal and I was in dock oh quite a while. I remember the Group MO came to, to visit and he looked at it and they were, our, our, the squadron doc was looking after me and he turned around and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ And he said, ‘You can’t do anything else,’ he says. ‘Just keep pouring it in.’ Yeah. But at the time I was under the weather. I was having boils and I had a Whitlow on my finger and that was, that was amusing. I I went home on leave with a Whitlow and that night, oh God I was in agony and my dad came in to me and he said, ‘What’s the matter?’ And I said, ‘My finger.’ ‘He says, ‘Go to the hospital in the morning.’ So I went to Du Cane Road Hospital and they had a look. ‘Oh yes. Sit down. Sit. I’ll send someone to you.’ So I sat down and two blokes came and they were rugby three quarterbacks I think. They were both about seven foot tall and fifteen stone like Peter and they said, ‘Are you the airman with a Whitlow?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Come on.’ And Du Cane Road is a teaching hospital and they took me in a theatre and there are all these seats up there and we sat down at this table and he turned around and he said, ‘Put your finger —', he put a block on the table, ‘Put your finger on there,’ he said, and he sprayed it with some blooming stuff and it was, yes, and he was chatting away quite happily and he picked up a scalpel and he banged on my finger and it just went thud and then he promptly cut it all the flipping way down and wrapped and turned round, ‘Come on.’ And we went to the plaster of Paris place and they put a splint on on my hand. Then they bound my hand up like a boxing glove and I said, ‘How can I get my jacket on?’ Fair enough. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We’ll pin your jacket up, put you in a sling. Fair enough. Then he gave me two pills. He said, ‘You’ll want them tonight.’ So, I said, ‘Thanks very much.’ ‘Now, you can go home on the bus.’ ‘Thank you very much.’ So anyway, I went out of the hospital on the bus and I’m standing at the bus stop and these two old ladies standing there. I heard one say to the other, ‘That poor boy,’ she says, ‘I wonder how he got his arm — [laughs] I thought to myself, I wonder if they would smile if they knew it was a Whitlow. But that was it and then for the next four months nobody wanted to know me. I used to go back to camp and oh, nothing. Go away. Go on leave. And I was on leave on and off for about four months. Then what, I don’t know how true it is or what it is but they were on about something that we’d been behind enemy lines and we’d come back and if we went again we could be shot. What it is I don’t know but anyhow, it was—
MH: They didn’t want to be associated with you just in case you got shot down again or something.
BT: No. Anyhow, we they decided that we could [pause] I stayed on leave and I was home on leave with the wife at night. Just got in bed. Gone to bed. The doorbell goes so I go to the door. ‘Yes?’ Telegraph boy. Well, I’d still got a brother in the Army and I thought, Derek. No. “Flight Sergeant Turner.” Oh. “Return to unit.” Oh. The next day I go back to unit. ‘Wing Commander Baker wants you.’ ‘Oh, right.’ Goes to see Wing Commander Baker. ‘Ah, Turner. I want to do some flying.’ ‘Yes,’ What’s that to do with me? ‘But my navigator and my flight engineer are sick.’ I said, ‘Oh.’ ‘Well, Greenwell’s decided he’ll fly with me. You don’t mind do you?’ Well, how the hell do you say no to a wing commander? So, ‘Yes, sir.’ So fair enough. ‘We’re doing a cross country tomorrow.’ Fair enough. So we do a cross country with Wing Commander Baker. Now, my pilot was good. I’m not saying Wing Commander Baker was bad but my pilot was good. And the Stirling that they got ready for us they filled with Australian petrol. So, when we come in to land we’re down the runway. Oh dear. A few nights later he decides we’re doing a bullseye on Leeds so we do a bullseye on Leeds and they put the same petrol in the plane and we come down [pause] oh dear. And Wing Commander Baker turned round, he said, ‘That’s twice I’ve done that.’ And Ginger said, ‘Yes, I know sir. We were with you both times.’ ‘No need to be nasty, Greenwell.’ ‘No sir.’ Turner. 19th of February the tannoy goes. ‘Flight Sergeant Turner report to Wing Commander Baker.’ ‘Yes sir.’ Down to Wing Commander Baker. ‘Ahh Turner. My navigator is better so we don’t need Greenwell.’ So I said ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘But Morgan is still bad.’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘Well, I want to operate.’ Oh dear. That’s a bad idea. ‘Yes.’ ‘You don’t mind do you?’ ‘No sir.’ ‘Right.’ So, December, February the 20th and we know the war’s nearly over and they’re trying to keep Jerry this side, this side of the Rhine. They don’t want him to reform on the other side of the Rhine so they’re knocking down all the bridges on the river to stop him and we got the job. So we flew to Holland and we attacked this bridge at the Waal. On the Waal at a place called Rees and it was a nightmare. It was the worst night. The worst trip I ever had. And then just to cap it all Jerry jet jobs were on the job. So we were shot up by the flak and shot down by a Jerry fighter.
MH: Jet fighter that shot you down was it?
BT: And out of the, out of an aeroplane I jumped again. I landed in a pig sty up to my flipping knees and I didn’t know whether I was in Germany or Holland or where I was. I’d no idea. I was on my own. And then a soldier came marching through the blooming door and he said, ‘Where is he?’ I said, ‘Who are you after?’ Oh, he said, ‘You’re English.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I was told it was a Jerry.’ I said, ‘No.’ So we went back. I went back to them and I was, I was no how. I remember him giving me a glass of rum and they took us back to a place called Tilburg, I think it was. and flew us home in an air ambulance. But Wing Commander Baker and Flight Sergeant Gordon were killed. And that was the end of my flying career.
MH: What were your thoughts the second time you floated down from a plane?
BT: I couldn’t tell you what I thought. I don’t know. I don’t, honestly. As far as I know I was terrified and [pause] at —
MH: What sort of height did you drop from this time? Similar sort of height?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: What sort of height did you parachute from this time?
BT: About seven thousand feet.
MH: Oh, that was a bit further up.
BT: And we were pretty high.
MH: I take it the two that lost their lives were they did they lose their life in the plane or as a result of the plane crashing? Didn’t they get out or —
BT: I don’t know. I don’t know. All I remember is Baker telling us to bale out. The navigator, bomb aimer and the wireless op and myself got out.
MH: What was it like suddenly seeing these jet powered planes? I take it you’d heard about them before then or —
BT: No. It was the nearest thing I could put it down to it’s the same as looking at one of these sci-fi comics. You know. It just didn’t seem real.
MH: No. Extremely quick.
BT: Hmmn?
MH: Were they flying extremely quick?
BT: It seemed they were there and gone you see before you looked, you know. It [pause] it’s, it’s an episode I can’t really remember and I’m not sorry about that.
MH: No. I can appreciate that. So, at that point you then become a twice holder of the Caterpillar Club badge.
BT: I I never got the second one.
MH: Didn’t you? Oh right.
BT: No. I did get the first.
MH: Oh right.
BT: The first, on my jacket. Oh God. Excuse me.
MH: And I take it, do they come from the manufacturers of the parachutes?
BT: The first one [pause] this one the adjutant of the squadron applied for it and got it for all of us. But the second one I heard nothing at all.
MH: Can I take a picture of that before we finish, Bert? If that’s ok?
[pause]
MH: So they owe you one then.
BT: Yeah, they owe me, they owe me the train fare from blooming Paddington to Keevil. Well, my dad my dad paid.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that was the, that was it for your flying then after that second one.
BT: Yeah. I finished flying then. I went to [pause] I went to Gillingham in Kent in the office. I was tootling around there and the Warrant Officer Powell came to me one day. He said, ‘Ah, Mr Turner.’ I’ve got my WO for Arnhem. When I got back to Shepherd’s Grove, I think. Shepherd’s Grove. Not, yeah Shepherds Grove, the wing commander was a South African captain and he turned around and told, he said, and he turned around, he told me, ‘I’ve put you in for an award,’ he said, ‘They refused it. So you’re having your warrant. Money will do you more good anyhow.’ And that was it and I went to Gillingham and Warrant Officer Powell came to me. He says, ‘I’ve found a job for you.’ I said, ‘Oh, yes?’ ‘Yes.’ He says, ‘There’s an orderly room at Roborough.’ He said, ‘I want you to go there and run it.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not —’ ‘Oh, you’ll manage.’ He said, ‘You’ll manage.’ He said, ‘You’re in charge.’ I said, ‘Am I in charge?’ He said, ‘You’re the only one.’ So I went to a little aerodrome just outside Plymouth. A place called Roborough, and I think it was run by ex-aircrew. Every, everywhere you looked there were aircrew that had finished. Of course, the war had finished and it was, it was, it was an eye opener. We went there and as I say I was orderly room clerk and station warrant officer. The CO was a chap called Hill. Henry Horace Hill. He was a flight lieutenant observer and he used to mess at Plymouth and he used to travel by motorbike and sidecar from Roborough to Plymouth.
MH: When did your demob come along then?
BT: Yeah. Then demob came and I went bus conducting. I went down the mines. I tried, I went to oh, TI Industries, Simplex and I couldn’t settle anywhere. I don’t know why. But then I went to a place Cartwright and Edwards to, on a pot bank. And I started dipping and finished up on the kilns and that was it. I finished up. I did thirty five years working for a pot bank.
MH: Any thought of going back to London? Was it always that your wife —
BT: It’s never bothered me. I like, I’ve been down to visits but when mum died the family broke up. It, of course the problem was we were all away from home at the time. I mean my brothers were in the Air Force, in the Army and I married as I say and I came up to Stoke on Trent. Derek married and he went to Manchester. We corresponded for a bit and then then somehow or other it, you know how it is. Things don’t go as you plan and we lost touch. I don’t know where any of my family are now [pause] No idea. But [pause] I haven’t, I don’t miss London at all.
MH: So when we just go back to when you, just for my benefit and I suppose the people who will listen to this interview. What was your, what did your job entail on the Stirling? What was your —
BT: Main, mainly you were watching petrol consumption and changing tanks.
MH: To balance the plane out and —
BT: No. For, a Stirling’s got fourteen petrol tanks.
MH: Right.
BT: At least. It can fit another six. I know it sounds stupid but it is. There’s a little bomb bay at the root of the wings and it’s room for three bombs. Or three petrol tanks in each.
MH: Each side.
BT: Wing each side. We had, one holds three hundred and twenty gallons, two hundred and forty and then as it gets towards the it’s [pause] [unclear] of petrol but you had to change tanks. But you always got rid of your small tanks first.
MH: Now then, you ended up flying, was it Stirling 4s was the last Mark you flew?
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
MH: Now, were they, how did they differ from the, I think you said you flew Stirling 1s at the start, didn’t you?
BT: Well, there was no front turret and there was no mid-upper turret on a Stirling 4. They took the turrets out. And there was a big hole cut towards the rear of the fuselage where the paratroops jumped or dropped out.
MH: And that, the plane was principally marked as a Mark 4 because they did it for parachutists and —
BT: Yeah.
MH: Dropping supplies.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And what have you.
BT: Yeah.
MH: So did you lose some of your crew from when you first started?
BT: Oh yes. We lost a mid-upper gunner. Yeah. A mid-upper gunner that we’d [pause] Teddy Roper. We lost him. I never heard what happened to Ted. He, he was an Essex boy as I remember. Essex or Kent. And he had a girlfriend Penny [ Lopey ]
MH: The things you remember.
BT: The things you think of.
MH: Yes. And did you keep in touch with any of your crewmates after the war?
BT: The last one, Leo. The last one.
MH: Yeah. Leo Hartman.
BT: Leo Hartman. He died at Christmas.
MH: Oh dear.
BT: Yes. I’ve got a copy of his logbook.
MH: Was that the logbook you mentioned to me earlier on when we first met?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: That you had lost your logbook.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And you said that you had a copy of one of your crewmate’s.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
MH: So, you kept in touch with Leo all the way through up until he passed away.
BT: Well, we did. Just Leo didn’t go on the last one. Leo. Leo, when we came back from Arnhem Leo went to London and he never, he never, he went to Uxbridge and stayed there ‘til the end of the war ‘til he was demobbed. But we kept in touch. I kept in touch with Pete Findlay until he died. But McQuiggan wasn’t interested and Ginger, the navigator he was too far away. He was up, he lived at Fencehouses in Durham.
MH: Right.
BT: That way. And we went in, he went to take up, to a pub. Became a landlord I believe. He got a DFM for the trip we did to France and he died of cancer. Thirty odd years. He was sixty something when he died. And I I met Pete [Bodes] brother and his wife.
MH: That was your rear gunner.
BT: Yeah.
MH: Was that a difficult meeting?
BT: Yes. They want particulars and it’s not nice. Did he get, did it hurt? I don’t think being hit by a cannon shell hurts. But, he had a girlfriend on the station, a WAAF and she had that you know that purple mark on her face.
MH: A birthmark.
BT: Yeah. And it was rather bad and she’d been up to, for some reason and [pause] and I had [pause] when you get talking like this it, it comes back.
MH: Like I said before if there are things you don’t want to talk about then just say.
BT: But, no. It [pause] it’ll pass.
MH: So, we’ve got all these thirty one, thirty two missions that you’d fly in the end.
BT: Thirty one. Yeah.
MH: What was life like in between? You watch these television films of, sort of flying boys down the pub and then back to reality.
BT: I get so cross at times when I watch these films. It’s, I mean I watch the Dambusters and I’m ready to hit someone.
MH: Because it’s not how it was.
BT: They get it so wrong. Well, I mean they’re, they’re supposed to have advisors and when they get the basics wrong it’s time to pack up. Now, you take the Dambusters. It’s nothing. It’s wrong, but it’s nothing. They’re having egg and bacon before they go. They sit down for a meal in the film. You didn’t have egg and bacon before you went. You had egg and bacon when you came back and blokes used to joke, ‘Can I have your egg if you don’t come back?’ And if you look, you watch there’s three Lancasters taking off in line abreast on a grass aerodrome. On a grass airfield. Carrying mines? They’d dig in.
MH: You’d take off one after the other on a hardstanding. A hard strip.
BT: Used tarmac runways. You know, I mean it’s only [pause]
MH: But that’s film for you, isn’t it?
BT: Yeah. Oh yeah.
MH: I think we’ve, we’re probably coming very close to the tape running out. Not that there’s a tape
BT: Yeah.
MH: But another fascinating hour and a half. Is there else that you think you need to tell me? You want to tell me.
BT: I don’t think so. It’s, I mean, I’ve always [pause] I’ve always thought I had a good war. I had a pretty clean war. It’s only when I think of the last op that I get a bit maudlin. It, I was lucky. But I met some decent people. I, we go, we are very fortunate we’ve, we’ve got in with a group, “D-Day Revisited,” and we go to France every June. And we go to Arnhem because I make a point in September of going to Arnhem and going and seeing the lads. I take a wreath to the skipper and he’s still the skipper seventy odd years later. But we go to, go to a little village in France, Arromanches and we were there this year and Pete turns around to me and said, ‘Bert, two blokes here want to shake hands with you.’ I thought right. Turned around and there’s a group captain and an air vice marshall. And I turned around to him, I said, I pointed to groupie, I said, ‘That’s God.’ I said, ‘And that one I don’t know.’ But I mean they’re nice chaps. They’re, they talk to me as if we’re equals and all the rest. You wouldn’t dream of it happening [laughs] I mean, I don’t, I don’t think I spoke to our group captain, and I couldn’t tell you his name, in all the time I was on the squadron.
MH: Different times.
BT: But we meet these chaps and they seem to be interested.
MH: I don’t think they seem to be, I think they are Bert. I think they are being polite.
BT: Did you say you wanted a photograph?
MH: Right. Right. So, I think I’ve asked all the questions. Thank you for giving your time. I know there’s some difficult things we’ve talked about but as you say, you know —
BT: I’m sorry if it’s been boring.
MH: Quite the opposite. It’s been fascinating. Its been absolutely fascinating. It’s been a privilege to sit and listen to you.
BT: It’s —
MH: And I think the important thing is in the future people will be able to listen to your words.
BT: Oh.
MH: And the things that you did, and I think we have to remember you were a twenty something young man, weren’t you?
BT: Well, this is it. We were. We were kids. We were, we were enjoying ourselves. We, it was a big adventure.
MH: Yeah. When you get older you start to look back and think well as you get older and experience affects you do different things.
BT: Oh, that’s a different matter, isn’t it?
MH: Yeah. It is. Right. I’m going to turn the tape recorder off. We’ve been going for oh an hour and twenty six minutes so its twenty five past, twenty six minutes past two.
BT: Oh, are you alright, Peter?
PB: I’m alright. Yeah.
MH: Peter has been very well behaved. I’m very grateful, Peter for your time as well.
PB: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Turner
Creator
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Martyn Horndern
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATurnerHA180829, PTurnerHA1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Turner was a member of the Air Training Corps before the war. He volunteered for the Air Force and was called up 2 August 1942. After training he became a flight engineer with 196 Squadron. He flew some bombing and mine laying operations before the squadron was transferred to Transport Command. He remembers dropping supplies to the Special Operations Executive and paratroopers on D-Day. His Stirling was hit by anti-aircraft fire on a supply drop over France but they managed to return to England. He was later shot down by Fw 190s over Holland. His rear gunner was killed he describes how they were attacked while on their parachutes. He was wounded in the ankle by shrapnel. He evaded and met up with Allied troops. After returning to operations after a lengthy convalescence, he was shot down a second time by a Me 262 over Germany. He discusses the role of the flight engineer on Stirlings. When Bert returned to London he decided he was so close he would go and visit his father not knowing that he had received the telegram saying he was missing presumed killed. When he saw his son he thought he was a ghost and passed out.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Dorset
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
Netherlands--Arnhem
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
Format
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01:23:36 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
1657 HCU
196 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
Caterpillar Club
crewing up
evading
flight engineer
Fw 190
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Me 262
medical officer
military ethos
military service conditions
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
RAF Keevil
RAF St Athan
RAF Stradishall
RAF Tarrant Rushton
RAF Tuddenham
shot down
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/463/8345/AAllenG150917.2.mp3
2746351851156e8d9988d59fc6e382b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Allen, Graham
G Allen
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Allen, G
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Graham Allen.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-17
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MY: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Malcolm Young, the interviewer [sic] is Graham Allen, and the interview is taking place at Mr Allen’s home in West Hallam, near Ilkeston in Derbyshire. The date is 17th of October 2015. Well thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this oral history and the simple opening question is how did you come to be in the Royal Air Force?
GA: Yes, well I was 19 at the time, and I didn’t want to be called up, I’d rather join up and I preferred the air force to any of the other services, so I went down to the Assembly rooms, as it were in Derby, and fixed a date and they had a word with me and when I went with actual joining up part, it was of course a question of what, what are you going to do? So they asked me a few questions as usual, [inaudible] and they didn’t think my education was up to pilot, navigator, radio operator or anything like that, which I agree with them it wasn’t, I only went to a primary school not secondary school or anything like that, and I realise now that is was very necessary to have that, further education,especially in maths and things like that. So they said well you might [inaudible] flight mechanic, I said well that sounds all right, I asked what was involved, so they told me roughly what it was going to be, and I agreed that, that was probably the best way of getting in the air force. Right, well I was called, it was quite a long time before I was called up 7 months it would be about 19 [hesitation] 1940, the end of 1940 I think, 41 perhaps,
MY: Yes
GA: It was nearly the end of the year, and they eventually called me up for my, it was up to Morecombe which was a training place where we did square bashing and anything that followed up, it was Morecombe, they’d got two big bus garages where the local buses operated from and they turned those into workshops, and all down the side of the workshops were these fighter force bi-planes string bags [?] as we used to call them, so those were the things we had to train on. But before that I had to do the square bashing on the prom at Morecombe, where we were put into civilian digs, and oh parade on the promenade there, and parades in the morning and all that sort of thing, and the prom provided a good parade ground for square bashing, so we had some funny weather while we were doing it.
MY: Yes
GA: But we were alright, I quite enjoyed it. Marching round and rifle and bayonets, all that sort of business,but, then they, because I wanted to be flight engineer, not flight engineer sorry, flight mechanic, I went to one of these bus garages, to the training lot there, and they had some excellent civilian instructors and fitters, and they took us through all the basics of, [slight laugh] what I think of now as quite useless information, when you were taught to do all the rigging of the [?] airframe, by the way, [inaudible] airframe, and when they took us to do all the rigging and tightening all the wires up against templates to get the angle of incidence right, and all that sort of thing, it proved to be quite useless in the end, for us because those sort of aeroplanes had rapidly gone out of business, so anyway, we had quite useful stuff as well as that, and general mechanical details, apart from that we had exams occasionally I forget how many weeks it was now, but we were there for quite a while. [inaudible] did quite well, and they said would you like to go on a fitters course straight away, rather than go on this course as a flight engineer [?] so I took the opportunity went on and followed up with the fitters course, which we had to do more detailed work and more practical work [inaudible] After leaving there, I think that took nearly six months altogether, at the bus garages, I was posted to 152 Squadron, at Swanton Morley in Norfolk, and over there I think the first job was, chief mechanic, there was a pile of , there was a pile of Spitfire wheels in one corner of the hanger, all with tyres on, he says there’s a couple of tyre levers there I want you to get those tyres off before you, my friend and I were joined up together, we actually stayed together, there, there pair of us, worked on these wheels at the start getting all the tyres off [inaudible] So that’s, i remember the first job I had, after that we joined in with the squadron activities more and learned how to rescue the aircraft that had crashed and things like that, in fact the Spitfire was very weak on the undercarriage, and we hadn’t come across that before [?] but they easily broke, you get a bit of bad ground or something like that, because, as you know the Spitfire, they were very close together, and retracted outwards, the Hurricane was wider went inwards so the Spitfires were very, it was a vulnerable part of them, otherwise a pretty good aircraft, so my work there was inspection, partly, various parts and what we were looking for was loose controls and things like that, metal fatigue and various things like that, inspection at various times, as they did the same theses days, so most of my work was that, and dealing with these crashed aircraft that came in, that were heavily shot up and damaged and things like that. I remember one way of getting around when an undercarriage had gone, at the time we had an old costermongers cart two wheels and a flat deck like that and two handles that you could get hold of we used to rush out with this costermongers barrow and shout two six and anybody that was available to get hold of the wing tip heaved it onto this, one wing onto this costermongers barrow, we used to wheel it in like that it was quite a regular occurrence in fact. They were still operating it was well after the battle of Britain of course that they were still operating sweeps over the enemy territory and they used to come back, full of beams if they’d shot something up, rolled over the airfield, slow rolls, missing the watch office by [laughter] inches so it was quite exciting at times like that. Now let me think, I was at [inaudible] I stayed with them until, several months we were at Swanton Morley and then we moved to Coltishall which was a bigger place as you probably know, there were two squadrons there 152 and I’m not sure what the other one was, anyway [inaudible] it was going to be equipped with more modern spitfires ours were fairly basic [inaudible] all guns no cannons so they shipped us over to Northern Ireland to Londonderry Eglinton[?] in Londonderry shipped us over there [inaudible] shipped, it was very rough on the way over I remember, and when we got there [inaudible] Belfast I think the route and we spent some time in Northern Ireland at Eglington not doing very much until these new planes came in and the ferry pilots brought them in, and the first time I ever flew was, we hitched a ride back with these ferry pilots, well I’d got a 48 hour pass, it was a bit more than 48 pass, it would be about a 4 day pass and we hitched a ride in a [pause] an old biplane that took passengers [pause]it took about four or five passengers, so then the pilots came over we got talking to them, I was on duty crew that day, that’s why we met them, we were topping the tanks up and that sort of thing and they came in, they brought several new spitfires in. We cadged a lift the next day, we got permission to put our passes forward, two of us hitched a lift on the trip to England, we spent two days in England [slight laugh] back again, that was over by boat then, the Ben-My-Chree was the boat we used to sail in, it was an ex-passenger trip on the Belfast run, in fact it was still battered about because it had been at Dunkirk, there was quite a few holes in the side and things like that. [laughter]I shall always remember it having a look round and things. Anyway we got in on time, back and after about 2 or 3 days leave and we had to hitch hike the rest of the way of course the landings were up north near Ailsa Craig, I remember we passed Ailsa Craig before we landed, as I say they left us there to hitch hike down to our, Derby, and then train back, managed to get back alright without getting jankers or anything like that [laughter] so I did the rest of my life in Northern Ireland on the new Spits that came over. And then while I was there there was a message came through on the routine orders about flight engineers training you could volunteer as a flight engineer if you were a fitter or flight mechanic and it was all to do with the introduction of the four engine bombers. So I [inaudible] and volunteered [laughter] as I’ve often thought and quite soon, we were brought together we had to have an interview in Belfast, with the top brass there asking us why we wanted to be flight engineers and things like that [inaudible] applicants and that, I remember we had to stay the night there in Belfast and there were no proper beds they were sheets of plywood between two posts, in Belfast town hall they made it up for us to stay the night while we were interviewed, so that was my interview for aircrew [slight laugh] Anyway the next thing was I was posted to Aire, now if I get this right [inaudible] posting came through to [long pause] oh I know it was to go to 106 squadron when we’d finished the fitters course, posted to 106 squadron and they have a training wing there or something, it wasn’t a proper training place, they introduced these conversion units, 1654 conversion unit I think it was Swinderby, so first of all we were posted to 106 squadron who were supposed to be at Conningsby anyway we ended up at Conningsby, they said oh they left a fortnight ago, they are at Syerston now so they duly, instead of sending us to Syerston, these conversion units had just started properly and I think it was 1654 at Swinderby, I might have the number wrong, anyway we did Swinderby, posted to Swinderby and there we were crewed up as you know, they practised crewing up [?] chuck you all in a big hanger and sort it out for yourselves, and we did, eventually we arrived at the right crew, they were quite keen on people who had been flight mechanics and things like that fitters. The aircrew had been flying Whitley’s, my crew had, to get two more members a gunner and an engineer they were quite keen on people that had, had a bit of experience on aeroplanes at least,
MY: Yes
very little flying experience on a Spitfire squadron [laughter] in fact the only time I ever flew was that time when we hitched a ride. We did the course at the, forget how long it was now, it wasn’t a terrible long time six or seven weeks or something like that after we’d crewed up, we did quite a few short cross country and things like that and having never been in a war plane before I had to learn it as I went along [slight laugh] and they helped me quite a lot, they knew I knew the stuff on engines
MY: Yes
and things like that so I was able to guide them through that part of it, the rest of the crew we got on very well. My pilot was, we were all sergeants or flight sergeants, he was ex-public schoolboy and he came from London but I got on very well, he taught me a lot and I taught him a lot, and we eventually got posted to 106, and false alarm there in the first place we were able to choose the same squadron, we were originally posted so that was 106, we were interviewed by Wing Commander Gibson as you probably know [laughter]
MY: Yes
and it was quite an interview believe me, they had us in all standing to attention, he was very , very abrupt [inaudible] an arrogant man really and anyway, we got through the interview and I always remember him saying “now you wont get any leave just yet you’ve come here to fight and you either die or finish your tour and get a gong”
MY: [laughter]
and that was part of the interview with Wing Commander Gibson. Anyway we were posted to our usual [inaudible] 106 and first time I flew on operations there we had just done a few to get to know it, flights and [inaudible] the local countryside and things like that, and the new crew, as I say we taught each other a lot, anyway, while we was there I hadn’t done any, we hadn’t been on op’s and one night in January, the 17th of January they put the squadron on op’s, but we weren’t mentioned, but they called me up to the office, [inaudible] and said well we will get you together and brief you and that, right, there’s a chap gone, there’s an engineer gone sick you are in his crew now as flight engineer, just for tonight [?] and of course it was Berlin, [laughter] first time they bombed Berlin for a long time, January 1943 so I went and found my crew, my other crew quite strangers to me, their crew, I think, I don’t think he’s gone sick but from knowing the history of the crew later on I rather think he had gone LMF [lack of moral fibre]
MY: Yes
so they had to find another engineer quick. So I got my first trip as Berlin so all went well for most of the time although it was a bit of a shambles nobody could find the pathfinders flares and everybody seemed to be mixed up and when we eventually, our bomb aimer said right I think I can recognise something, there’s an airfield there its got a peculiar watch office in a horseshoe shape which I know to be Tempelhof airfield and so we dropped the bomb on there, we couldn’t find anything else to drop it on, so we started back no trouble [inaudible] but nothing to write home about and so we started back on the way back and we’d been about oh I should think it’d been about, nearly three quarters of an hour something like that on the way back after, and the shout went up fighter fighter and the usual thing and it was a JU88 coming up behind us, started firing he caught us quite unawares and all I saw was flashing lights flashing passed the cockpit and this JU88 was pumping shells at us our guns did very well though and they shot him down [pause] he came up a bit too close, and they said they claimed him as, then later on they both got immediate DFM’s when they came back. Anyway they shot this JU88 down and I seen it where it was claimed and ratified we came back, except one of the engines was on fire one of our engines was on fire some of the stuff had hit it and it was flaming a bit so I went through the process of feathering and directioning and all that [?] which didn’t work, we kept going for a bit and the pilot eventually said, well get ready to bail out because I don’t think that fire is going to stop, I think its going to spread and anyway we got parachutes ready and things like that, but it did start to go out and something had taken effect and he’d dived quite a long dive to try and get some sort of reaction from that and it seemed to work, I know that sounds like an American film but it did work in that case and the fire went out, and so we were three engines, we set back, set a course back and got back alright but we radioed one of the Manson, Woodbridge or Carnaby, which were the three emergency airfields, I think it was Woodbridge, that we went to and landed there on three, no trouble, it doesn’t matter about one engine gone on the bank, and stayed the night there, we got picked up by, someone fetched us in another Lancaster in the morning took us back, so that was my first op [laughter].
MY: Quite a baptism of fire [laughter]
GA: Really yes, actually it was but [inaudible] were really easy after that, a lot of them anyway, so eventually I went back to my usual crew, then this other crew lasted three weeks after that, they were missing, if fact I’ve got the details where they were shot down [inaudible] on the internet if you wanted to get it [?] all the details where they are buried. [pause] So my crew got pretty good and we got to know most things we were attacked together once or twice, in fact we were a bit naughty sometimes but we didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that. Ah, what’s next in my story? [laughter] I had quite an uneventful, comparatively uneventful, we had our up and downs of course, didn’t get badly damaged or anything like that, until I was near to the end of the tour I think I was about two, think I was thirty, two, two off thirty, but some of the crew had made the thirty, because they had been on these submarine spotting on Whitley’s before, they said well you might as well, you’re with them so I was put off ops at twenty eight instead of thirty and they posted me to another, one of the con units to instruct there,
MY: Which conversion unit, can you recall?
GA: Yes, let me think on, I was at one or two places, Wigsley [?] which is now called Pigsley [?] in the books, it was such a rough place, [inaudible] in the books it was that rough they called it Pigsley, it was pretty rough, Wigsley, Skellingthorpe [long pause] let me think about this, I would say look in the log book but we didn’t put the stations in the log book, I think I ought to show you the log book to start with, I’ll show it you before we’ve finished,
MY: Fine I shall look forward to that,
GA: Anyway, I was transferred to several of these conversion units probably one of them but not, and round about the end of one of the con units I was sent back apparently on ops to do a second tour on ops to 463 Australians, now they were at Waddington, which was very much of a change from Wigsley, [laughter]
MY: Yep
GA: And at Waddington they posted my old Skipper McGregor with me, we made a pair for a new scheme they’d got checking crews at so many ops I think it was five ops, ten ops, fifteen, that was it about fifteen we assumed they knew their stuff by then, they’d either be missing or they knew their stuff by fifteen ops, anyway we spent I suppose, we were both on this quite a long time we were officially on ops but we were only a pair, we were without the rest of the crew, McGregor and myself, were on this job of checking the crews at various stages they said it saved a lot of trouble, it kept them up to scratch in other words
MY: Yes
GA: And try telling Aussies they were doing something wrong wasn’t easy, it some cases [laughter] but we got on very well with them actually in the end, and we were quite respected members of the squadron, I remember they, they made me a, at one of the mess parties they made me an honorary Australian gave me a Kangaroo badge to wear, it was on the ground floor by the way, opened the window at Waddington and we got slung out onto the flower bed outside [laughter] so they called me a, honorary Australian after that. Anyway we got on very well with them in the end until they were posted back to Australia and they had to find me a crew. Before then though I’d, my skipper left me he’d gone on one of these other crews then, he went to Metheringham at 106 back at Metheringham, they moved from Syerston to Metheringham, and they posted him back to Metheringham, and he was on these Lincolns, in fact he wrote to me asking if I’d like to go back with him, but then before I’d got chance to reply they made Metheringham on the Lincolns they didn’t want flight engineers unless they’d done pilot training, well I’d never done pilot training, except on the squadrons, I flew Lancaster’s on my own quite a bit on the squadrons, when I was with an Aussie pilot which I got in the end, we were back flying prisoners of war back from France and Belgium and places like that, and it was this Aussie pilot and his crew, and he used to walk around in the fuselage [inaudible] and leave me to fly it [laughter] so I’ve flown Lancaster’s quite a lot but not taken off, or not landing, but I’ve got quite a few hours on flying the Lancaster on my own
MY: Good
GA: So, anyway that was part of the training and I was with them until they actually all of them went back to Australia, then they posted me as assistant adjunct administration Squadron something like that,
MY: Yes
GA: Which from then on I was demobbed,
MY: This story that’s in the Bomber Command Association magazine that being attacked by a 262 could you say something about that?
GA: Sorry, that was when I was with the Australian squadron, at Waddington, I did actually go back on ops real ops, and that was one of them.
MY: Yes
GA: Well we went, now my pilot was, my old pilot in that case he hadn’t left the 106, so he was, he got me as engineer because I was his engineer all the time, I hadn’t acted as one on ops until then, so they put us both back on ops the picture, the crew out of oddments that were left odd Australians that were left hadn’t gone back and some of them English, some Australian. Anyway I hardly knew the crew except the pilot, anyway we went in daylight, we had been practising two days before, formation flying, formation flying with the Lancaster squadron, its was a gaggle, they used to call it a gaggle, roughly behind each other and that sort of thing, and we were in this gaggle, and we got about I think it was about ten thousand feet something like that, it was, we had got to go quite a long way and we got over the channel or the North Sea, North Sea, we were at Hamburg, and we were, how did it happen? We were going along nicely on the way to Hamburg, and suddenly, red flares went up, that was the signal for being attacked, and we looked round and saw these, oh sorry, I am over running my story a little, I don’t know if you can do anything about that on there.
MY: Don’t worry
GA: On the way out, on the way out, we were still in England we had an engine failure, starboard outer, and it was the shaft that drives the magnetos, there is one shaft that drives two magnetos and it snapped, broke, it’d got a weak spot in it that actually sheared, so both magnetos were out, so literally it just windmilled, so I had to feather that, we decided to , skipper decided to try and keep up with them and keep up with the gaggle, but we were in a losing battle, we couldn’t keep up with the other Lancs. we were well behind by the time we got over there and on the way to Hamburg, so, this is when we were, got to Hamburg, there was 617 with us, they had got Tallboys, and they’d certain things that they had got to do there, and we were back up with 617 and made up about sixty aircraft [inaudible] we were on the tanks and things like that the rest of us, anyway we kept on to Hamburg, well behind by the time we got anywhere near it, the formation had left us, and we were on our own and we suddenly saw these red lights go up, red flares go up, ahead of us where the [inaudible] squadron was then we saw these 262’s diving down straight through the formation, and [pause] we were well behind and said well if their getting that treatment were going to be in trouble soon, anyway, one of the ones, they shot two Lancs. down well ahead of us and one of them they shot the tail straight off, they’d got cannons in these things, they’d gotfour cannons, four thirty millimetre cannons, in the nose of the 262, it must have just hit it [smacking sound] like that, about middle [?] of the door, and I should think it would be about a mile in front of us or something like that by that time, we were well behind the main squadron, and we saw this tail plane and the top bit of the door floating down like that with the gunner still in it, and the rest of the Lanc straight down without the tail, so there were two missing that day, that was one of them. So we eventually said well they haven’t seen us yet, but we went a little bit further and saw one coming towards us so we started pumping red lights out of the out of the very pistol, the wireless op had that, they had a signal, they screwed into the top by the wireless operator, and he got hold of the cartridge, anyway he used up all his red ones [laughter] and used most of the others as well, trying to attract attention , we got a supposedly an escort of mustangs, but we hadn’t seen them until then, and suddenly, way after we saw this shot coming at us and he hit us, knocked another engine out on the same side, but it didn’t set on fire fortunately, just knocked it out and he was coming round for another do, and these mustangs appeared, two mustangs, that was in my picture [?] and this 262 cleared off as soon as he saw the mustangs coming before he had another go at us I was very lucky.
MY: So did you finish your operational flying on 463?
GA: Yes, I only did, I went to Pilsen another one [pause] and err now, Pilsen, it’s in the log book [?] I can show you it, and then we finished operational flying, 463 it’s the last one I did in fact that was the end of the war. While I was still on 463.
MY: How long after that was it you were demobbed?
GA: [pause] We were sent on these postings and assistant adjutant after that, only about six months I should think, six months at the outside, yes. [pause]
MY: What did you do once you had left the RAF at the end of the war?
GA: I went back to my old firm as a rep at first, I did a full bound apprenticeship, at a printing firm and they were still in operation when I came back and they had got a vacancy for a rep that had just left them so I wrote to the manager and asked him if I could apply he said yes and he interviewed me while I was still in the RAF and I got the job as their rep when I actually left which was within about a couple of months, something like that, so the rest of the time, for most of my life i’ve spent as a rep with this printing firm.
MY: And are you local to, in the Derby area?
GA: Yes, yes, it was called Derby printers limited.
MY: Right
GA: It no longer exists but [pause]
MY: Quite a change I should imagine from the hectic life you had lead during the war.
GA: It was, I can’t remember some of it, these days my memory isn’t what it used to be, as you’ve seen me tonight, I have sort of misplaced time haven’t I? Quite a lot of it, [inaudible] by the way I didn’t have a car in those days, I had to use all railways and buses and walking
MY: [laughter]
GA: It ranged between Liverpool, Manchester, London, Northampton, sort of area I covered and eventually they bought me a car after about six months, after about, no not six months more like six years
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause] And, I eventually became general manager at the same firm after I finished as a rep, at that time the manager was retiring and I got the job as general manager, a bit earlier because he died before he retired.
MY: If you just think back to the time while you were in Bomber Command and the places where you were stationed what sort of relationship did the people on the station have with the local villages and towns?
GA: Well at Syerston where I did most of my ops there was a farmhouse on the perimeter and when we were taxying round to go to the end of the runway there were about fifty people on the top of this farmhouse and the buildings there, never missed they were all waving flags and giving us the go ahead, and then the, of course they weren’t allowed on the actual aerodrome, there were enough people at the caravanners, you know the people who used to gather at the caravan to wave you off. There was only, they were all civilians at this place, at Syerston, and so they all gathered on all sorts of standing up places to look over, waving us off, so that was good. As regards the, we never really met them [inaudible] the local, there was never a local village it wasn’t very near a village, you used to see people in the pubs, but we used to go to Lincoln occasionally, but, as far as I could tell we had good relations, but nothing striking, Lincoln was our main town if we wanted a night out, there again I kept with my old pilot here, we got posted together, [inaudible] right to the end, and met him until he went to Metheringham.
MY: And did he survive the war?
GA: Yes,
MY: Good.
GA: He was an insurance man with the Sun Insurance, and he opted to go to South Africa, to their branch in South Africa, and he stayed there and he wrote to me quite a few years eventually it dropped off a bit [inaudible] I know that he was alive in South Africa, up to, oh, six or seven years ago and my gunner [inaudible] he got in touch with me, I found him, [inaudible] his address in England when he came over on a visit to his daughter who still lives in England and he had a word or two with him.
MY: I notice that in the book the bomber boys, you’re pictured in your flight engineers seat, was that on 106?
GA: Yes [pause] we had a drop down seat, we a drop down seat, no back on it or anything like that, so we could sit there if we wanted, we stood most of the time, take off, take off we stood up took the throttles up to the gate and push them to the gate if necessary, wheels up, flaps, used to do all that, standing up, it wouldn’t have been very good in a crash would it?
MY: And then you’d stay standing for most of the trip?
GA: Quite a lot yes, there’s a bubble on the side window of a Lancaster and if you’re in expected, or position port shall we say, fighters about you used get in there to look underneath,
MY: Amazing
GA: But that seat we used it on cross country’s and that sort of thing, if you wanted a rest, but it wasn’t much of a seat there were no safety belts on it or anything like that [laughter] [pause]
MY: What was the average sort of length of an operational sortie whilst you were flying?
GA: Well we did a lot to the Ruhr which was about, [pause] between five and six hours I should think, according to which end of the Ruhr you took, and then there’s places like [pause] let me get my log book out,
MY: Mmmm, is it in here?
GA: Its in there, much battered, that’s the medals [laughter] which I shall be wearing at the do I think
MY: I should hope so
GA: [inaudible]
MY: Yes
GA: [rustling]Right, I made this myself, [pause, rustling] Oh that’s the crew waiting to go, [pause]my skipper, and Gibson, the rest of the crew is the ones, by the way I forgot to tell you that, they took him the first night as a [inaudible]Berlin was on two nights, the first night I was on, sorry the first night the skipper was on, with that crew, and Richard Ingleman was with them doing the [inaudible] the commentary on it, while they were there [?] [inaudible] I got hold of this [inaudible] this, the bomb aimer was a navel bloke [inaudible]
MY: Oh lord
GA: [pause] I’m finding it, [inaudible, rustling] there’s a bit of damage, [pause] Very interesting pilot I used to fly with, [pause] Bonham Carter, Group Captain Bonham Carter, he was a CO at Wigsley [laughter] and he took me on my commissioning interview, and he used to come into the crew room sometimes and, anybody want a trip to Swinderby, anywhere like that, he’d say I’ve got to go and see an old pal so I want an engineer, so I used to go and fly with him sometimes [laughter] [rustling]
MY: At what stage, [cough] pardon me, at what stage were you commissioned?
GA: When we, after we’d finished ops and when we had been posted to a conversion unit
MY: Right,
GA: [pause, rustling] oh I can’t find, [pause, rustling] Stuttgart six hours, Pilsen eight fifteen, Berlin seven forty five, these are the hours, [pause] this is [pause] typical entry in the log book how many hours, how many trips in a month [pause] got a few Gibson signatures in there, you see [pause] [rustling, pause]
MY: There he is Guy Gibson, OC 106 squadron,
GA: Right
MY: This of course was, its was when he finished this tour that he went to take on 617
GA: Right, that’s right he went from there, you’ll see his signature suddenly ends, some of the flight commanders had to sign it, that was when he went to, six, 617.
MY: Did anybody else from 106 go with him?
GA: Yes, I am trying to think which one it was now, I read the book [laughter] and that sort of thing, there was only one of them, from 106 [pause]
MY: I see you’ve got Halifax as well as Lancaster
GA: Yes they
MY: In here
GA: They wanted to save the Lancaster’s for ops so they got a lot of, they were trying to make them all Lancaster squadrons so as the Halifax squadrons became redundant, they had, we had Stirling’s, Halifax’s as well as Lancs. on the conversion units [pause]
MY: Was there, much difference between them in terms of flying characteristics the Halifax and the Lancaster?
GA: The Halifax was a, it wouldn’t handle like the Lancaster at all, it was prone to getting out of awkward positions when flying, used to drop a wing and that sort of thing on it, the Lanc wouldn’t, so in the Lanc you could bring the throttles right back, pull you stick right back to, till you wait until it stalled it went down perfectly straight like that, [inaudible] gentle. The Halifax would start spinning, the Stirling it just couldn’t get up above 12,000 feet, they’d not carry very much anyway
MY: No
GA: But it was beautiful to fly in the air
MY: The Stirling?
GA: Yes, very steady [?] [inaudible]
MY: So which, presumably you did Stirling’s in your first heavy conversion unit did you?
GA: Yes
MY: Yes there we are
GA: Some of them are in there yes [pause]
MY: And was the, you hear lots of stories about the real affection that people had for the Lancaster, is that correct?
GA: Oh yes, nothing quite like it really, the others that I’d flown in, [inaudible] Stirling’s and the Halifax’s, not on operations though. We got back, by the way on that last one I was telling you about where we attacked by the 262’s
MY: Yes
GA: They shot the other engine out so we came back with two on one side, and it was perfectly alright got a bit warm the engines, but [laughter] there we, we contact the emergency airfield and that was, I think that was Woodbridge, it was one of the three big ones, it had a very wide runway and when they knew you were coming in on two engines on one side, they got a fire engine on one side ambulance on the other [laughter] [inaudible] foam all over the runway like that,
MY: But it was a successful landing was it?
GA: Yes, perfect landing, yes, that was my old pilot as well he was pretty good,
MY: This chap McGregor yes
GA: Yes
MY: Right
GA: Yes, he was a good friend and I am sorry he went to South Africa, so I didn’t see much of him after that,
MY: So would you, its funny question to ask in one sense given that were talking about war time, but did you enjoy your time, in, in Bomber Command?
GA: [pause] Yes, I did enjoy a lot of it yes, enjoyed flying and there were times when I wished I hadn’t but [laughter] but yes I did, I liked flying
MY: I note from your log book that there are a number of occasions when you would do trips on consecutive nights.
GA: Yes
MY: What did it feel like when you’d just come back from what would have been a quite traumatic experience, knowing that in twenty four hours you would be doing it all again?
GA: It was horrible really when they put them too close together like that, yes I didn’t like that part but I suppose it was necessary in those days, [inaudible] no I look back now and think how on earth did we stick it out and
MY: Well of course you were all very young men then weren’t you
GA: We were, we were
MY: Very resilient, the resilience of youth
GA: Exactly, yes, they had a different attitude to life, yes, but it, where they stick that close together it its not [laughter] it doesn’t sound right now does it?
MY: And when you got back from a sortie did you feel really fatigued?
GA: Yes, but not until you got in bed, things going round still, yes, [pause] some of the huts were, the accommodation was quite primitive in some of the [inaudible] some of the huts at Wigsley used to leak and you slept with your ground sheet on top of you, on top of your blankets
MY: [laughter]
GA: [pause, laughter] But places like Waddington and Syerston they were very good, [pause] Aye, have I taken up a lot of your time yet?
MY: I am intrigued by everything you have had to say, seriously,
GA: Are you
MY: Believe it or not we have been at it for nearly an hour and a half,
GA: Have we really
MY: And the time has literally flown
GA: Oh I haven’t dried up have I
MY: No you haven’t, It’s been absolutely marvellous
GA: I am afraid I have made a few mistakes, in timing like I did when I made a mistake in the last daylight we where things happened, and of course id you’d have said six months before that you’ve got to go and bomb Hamburg in daylight, [laughter] don’t be daft, it shows how the war deteriorated, because I mean I’d never seen a 262 before, neither had anybody else that I know
MY: Well they moved pretty fast as well didn’t they
GA: Oh yes, [laughter] but evidently, I don’t know who it was now I don’t think it was one of our squadron that got its tail shot off, makes you realise what fire power they’d got, I mean alright setting someone on fire, with your firepower but to see door I suppose is the weak spot of the fuselage to see it just literally chopped off like that its amazing, mmm.
MY: And presumably you have got your Bomber Command Clasp, at last
GA: [laughter] I have did you see it?
MY: I did yes, but um yes I was delighted when they finally saw sense and you know sort of
GA: Yes
MY: Gave that out, gave in to that and its, its so important it... but [pause] but you have, I mean it’s an amazing record, you’re sort of one and half tours on ops,
GA: Yes
MY: A distinguished flying medal, the Bomber Command Clasp I think its, for somebody who themselves has been a pilot in the Royal Air force its absolutely wonderful to sit and listen to things like this it really is absolutely marvellous
GA: I’m glad you were a pilot because you’ve understood a lot of what I’ve said
MY: Well of course its one of the things that attracted me to the whole project in the first place, because I have my own time, my own time in the service, I’ve always been, had a great interest in military history the air force history and to actually speak to people who were there
GA: Yes, yes
MY: Is, it so is, it’s an honour for me to be able to speak to people like you
GA: Good, I’ve got my grandson in-law is a pilot, so were following on [inaudible]
MY: Is he?
GA: He flies Hercules, and he’s now instructing on choppers,
MY: Oh right
GA: At, where they train all the navy and air force people together now
MY: What at Shorebury, at shorebury?
GA: Shorbury, yes
MY: Shorbury near Shrewsbury, oh right
GA: Yes, he’s instructor there now, and [inaudible] of lot of his flying on Hercules, to Afghanistan and that district
MY: Yes
GA: He was with the SAS team at one time, dropping them off the tail of the Hercules,
MY: I was talking to somebody the other day and we were commenting how, most, about five of the most senior posts in the royal air force, including the chief of the air staff
GA: Yes
MY: Are now helicopter pilots
GA: Are they really
MY: And that is a thing you wouldn’t have been able to say ten years ago,
GA: It is, it is
MY: but they, him his number two, another guy, Basnorth [?] the commandant of the royal air force college at Cranwell is a helicopter pilot and do you know, since the second world war, the only guy to walk round with a DFC with two bars is a helicopter pilot
GA: Really, DFC and two bars,
MY: And he won them in Iraq, and Afghanistan
GA: Oh yes
MY: he‘s now the station commander at Odiham,
GA: Ah
MY: But its quite a, I mean the helicopter fleet is, is so important nowadays, its as important, at least as important as the sharp pointy nose things that I used to fly, so it, its and its lovely to see
GA: Oh aye, aye, [inaudible] I can’t understand helicopters, he’s showed me inside one, I’ve never been in one and never been up in one
MY: Yes
GA: [inaudible]
MY: There we are,
GA: [rustling, inaudible] I was going to show you me grandson, we were together at the opening of the Bomber Command Memorial
MY: Oh right, so you’ve got a, let me take my papers away, and then we’ll be able to see, what you are doing [rustling] [inaudible] is it in there?
GA: No [inaudible]
MY: Was it in your black folder? I think what I’ll do is I’ll switch this off now
GA: Yes yes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Graham Allen
Creator
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Malcolm Young
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-17
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01:12:42 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAllenG150917
Description
An account of the resource
Graham Allen joined the Royal Air Force aged 19. He trained as a mechanic and worked on inspection and recovery of Spitfire aircraft. He later volunteered to be a flight engineer, and flew a tour of operations with 106 Squadron. His first operation was to Berlin; they were attacked by a Ju 88 and returned on three engines. After the war he returned to work for a printing firm in Derby.
Contributor
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Linda Saunders
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
106 Squadron
463 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
fitter airframe
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 262
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
P-51
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodbridge
runway
Spitfire
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1173/23870/MTurnhamK1850743-151002-01.1.pdf
07235aa0f8e224b278802efdfb6ab14b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Turnham, Ken
K Turnham
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Ken Turnham (1924 - 2018, 1850743, 197068 Royal Air Force) his log book and documents. He completed 29 operations as a wireless operator with 115 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Turnham and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Turnham, K
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memories of WWII
Description
An account of the resource
Booklet produced as part of 'Their Past Your Future's series produced for the Heritage Lottery. This is based on Ken's memories of his training for and operations with Bomber Command and his post war service in the Royal Air Force, as described to a family friend.
Creator
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Ken Turnham
Format
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Printed booklet
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Photograph
Identifier
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MTurnhamK1850743-151002-01
Coverage
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Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
115 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
coping mechanism
crash
Dominie
fear
final resting place
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
killed in action
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military ethos
navigator
Operational Training Unit
pilot
Proctor
promotion
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Witchford
RAF Yatesbury
recruitment
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/209/46470/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v370002.mp3
4ae5d4fa0c612b005db71b0077bfe8d1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bell, John Richard
John Richard Bell
John R Bell
John Bell
J R Bell
J Bell
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Wing Commander John Richard Bell DFC (-2024). He was a bomb aimer with 619 and 617 Squadrons in Flying Officer Bob Knights’ crew.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bell, JR-UK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: Well, good morning, John.
JB: Good morning.
Interviewer: Thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview for the Aviation Heritage Project from Lincolnshire here.
JB: My pleasure.
Interviewer: As you know we’re going to be collecting this information and it will go into an Archive and will be of future use for whoever is going to follow us.
JB: Excellent.
Interviewer: I wonder if you could just start by just telling us a little bit about how you came to serve with 617 Squadron.
JB: Yes, I, well I first of all the crew and I started our operational career with 619 Squadron at Woodhall Spa in June of 1943 and we proceeded to operate throughout the rest of 1943 until we moved to Coningsby around about December I think to allow 617 Squadron to come from Coningsby into Woodhall and have the airfield to themselves. And we were approaching the end of our tour, rather our pilot was approaching because he’d done two second dickie trips at the beginning which we hadn’t done and I missed a couple through illness so at some point we, we would have been split up as was the normal situation and sent off to other parts instructing at OTUs. But as a well-knit crew a family organisation as you might say we felt we didn’t want to be split up and we’d like to continue flying which seems a bit silly now when you look back. But we thought we’d volunteer to fly with 617 Squadron and we did and we were welcomed by Wing Commander Cheshire, had an interview and all went well. He said yes, ok. We were an experienced crew by then. So he was looking for experienced crews and we were very fortunate with our survival through to almost the end of our tour and that’s how we came to join 617 Squadron.
Interviewer: You must have been aware of the reputation of 617 Squadron. Did you feel that you really were joining an elite or was it a sense of concern?
JB: We knew we were joining an elite Squadron. We weren’t quite sure exactly what they were doing. In fact, at our interview we were asked why we wanted to join 617 Squadron. We said, well we were fed up with flying at twenty thousand feet and we rather liked this idea of flying low level and he promptly said, ‘Well, we’re not doing low level flying anymore.’ Which as you probably realise that was they attempted to do this after the dams raid and they lost a lot of aircraft.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: So it wasn’t a good idea and when Cheshire took over I think in about November of ’43 he started a different programme of operating which proved very successful. Operating at night over France and with little opposition most of the time at that time during the first few months of 1944. So we knew that the chances of survival were greater or at least we thought they were rather than with the main force. Perhaps with hindsight you’d wonder why you would want to volunteer to continue to fly on operations.
Interviewer: Well, they do say never volunteer but please tell us about your impressions of Wing Commander Cheshire. He’s such an important person in this.
JB: Yes. He was very approachable. Quiet. But he had that quality you knew you were going to follow that man and he would, there was no bombast with him and no sort of dictatorial attitude. He was very quietly unassuming but nevertheless he laid down what he wanted us to do and he was prepared to lead us in this. History shows that he did lead from the front. And he was just a nice man and well respected as a commanding officer with a great deal of experience as a bomber pilot.
Interviewer: Did he give you full regard? You said you had a lot of experience as a crew. Were you encouraged to put your views and experiences into the, into the Squadron melting pot so to speak?
JB: Well, I’m sure the pilot, the pilots really were the people who put the information in actually and they carried the forward the views of the crew but I suppose that when the pilots got together and he was with the pilots discussing tactics and so on took into account what the crews felt. We didn’t directly speak to him about it.
Interviewer: No.
JB: But through the, through the pilot we would. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Would you be able to tell us a little bit about what it was like to be on operations with 617? Could you perhaps describe the run up to and the activities that were involved in preparing for an operation and what actually happened?
JB: Yes. It is pretty much the same as, as all preparations for, for an operational flight and we would be told in the morning that the, there was the likelihood of an operation that evening and we would assemble. Well, we’d go through the process of getting kit ready and so forth and assemble for a briefing in the afternoon and after the briefing we would then get our kit from, you know the parachute and dinghy, Mae West and stuff like that. In the morning of course we would have checked the aircraft out thoroughly so there would be an air test and that was absolutely mandatory to make sure everything worked in the air. And then the bomb load would be checked out. I as the bomb aimer would be responsible for making sure that we had the right bomb load and seeing it put on perhaps, loaded on to the aeroplane. A navigator would also have his own maps and so forth to gather and the gunners would also collect their guns from the armoury. The armoury normally was received, the guns from the turrets and they would check them over and then the gunners would go and collect them and make sure they got the right ones back into the aircraft. So all this went on and checking everything thoroughly and then the, having drawn all the maps and made sure we knew where we were going and the briefing of course would spell out the exact timing of the operation and how many, who were to bomb first. And the particular operations that we were doing with 617 Squadron were, Leonard Cheshire managed to persuade the AOC that he should do the marking because we had, I think they had some experience with poor marking by Pathfinder at the time and so he marked. And that was the first one I think on Albert. I remember that raid where he marked the target with flares from extremely low level with the Lancaster and that was the type of operation that we did throughout the four months. I think up to May. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
JB: When we stood down. Yes.
Interviewer: Right. Did you have any experience of dropping any of the heavy weapons that 617 Squadron was equipped with? The Tallboy or –
JB: Well, yes. The, well, during that four months we were not only dropping one thousand pounders but also the twelve thousand pounds light cased [pause] what were they called? It was a blast weapon. So we were used to carrying a twelve thousand pounder but of course the problem with that was yes it was a blast weapon against buildings, normal type buildings and but also had some inaccuracy in it because of its shape and small fins that were necessary to get to enable it to be carried in the bomb bay. Then from, after June the 6th three days later we were equipped with a Tallboy and that’s when we got into the Tallboy era and it was a much finer weapon.
Interviewer: Yes. If I may I’d like to ask you a technical question about that which comes from a question that was put to me recently at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. What was it like? How did you actually ensure that the Tallboy was released very quickly? Was it an electronic or a mechanical release mechanism?
JB: It was an electronic –
Interviewer: Right.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So there was no time delay in that because you needed extreme accuracy didn’t you?
JB: Yes. You did and I cannot remember any detail of, of problems with the release. Since then many years later I discovered that there were. Why? Why for example there were wide misses with the Tallboy landing somewhere else and there was a problem with the release mechanism. This was a strap.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: And the straps were taken off the aeroplane on return and they were checked over to make sure they were serviceable and then put back. But there was a problem I understand with them for maybe releasing two or three seconds late which of course affected —
Interviewer: I can see you were —
JB: Yes, it was. Trial and error.
Interviewer: Thank you.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: That’s very helpful.
JB: Yes. I didn’t, I didn’t experience any problems. No. No. Whilst I didn’t hit exactly where I’d aimed the, it was close enough so they were all in the target area.
Interviewer: You were a bomb aimer.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: And from the point of view of the Archive for people visiting this in years to come a question must be asked and that is really to ask your, your feelings about the nature of the job you were doing because you were looking down at the target.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: And you were releasing heavy weapons against that target.
JB: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: With respect may I ask how you felt about that please.
JB: When I was operating with, with main force with 619 Squadron there were occasions when I realised, well obviously one realised that we were aiming at a part of the city where the industry was or the docks area or whatever it was. And hopefully the spot, the spot flares that were dropped by the Pathfinder Force hopefully were in the right area and so you were aiming at that. Nevertheless, you saw a city in flames throughout not just in that one area that you’re aiming at so the thought occasionally was you know that there is some sort of sympathy perhaps for the people who were on the receiving end. Having been through some of the London Blitz I could well understand that. But it didn’t put me off doing the job that I was trained to do. Then following on when we got to 617 Squadron of course not only were we dropping on a specific target, whatever it was, an engine manufacturing plant or but it was a single target which we were aiming at. Therefore, we hoped there were no civilians in the area. In fact, we made quite a lot of, went to a lot of trouble to make sure that the French workers in there got out before we dropped our bombs. So there was a great deal more of more satisfaction because you could see where your bombs were aiming at and where they exploded and you knew that you were taking out a specific target. So the operations were quite different and more satisfactory from, from the expert view of the –
Interviewer: Some military view.
JB: Military view. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. Thank you.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: That’s a very full answer. Could I ask you also about how you disciplined yourself? You were lying in the nose, you were, you were responsible for, really for directing the aircraft in those last few seconds of flight towards the target.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Most important that you hit the target and yet around you there would have been anti-aircraft fire, possibly the risk of fighter attack. Can you tell us what it was like to to do that part of the operation.
JB: Yes, the, pretty well all the flight to the target and perhaps we’re talking about operating with 619 Squadron in Main Force where you’ve got several hundred aeroplanes. You’re keeping a look out for other aeroplanes to make sure that you don’t collide with them and that was one of the problems of collision and other, and night fighters. But then approaching the target then the adrenaline in started to rise because you could see ahead a flaming city way up, way ahead and the sky would be filled with thousands of shell bursts. Now, this is impinged on my memory I can see this now and thinking how are we going to get through all those shell bursts? But when you, when you get to the point where now you take over and the bomb doors are open and you are guiding with the pilot to keep him on track towards it you are concentrating on the job. You don’t think about anything else and everything else is taken out of your mind. You’re not worrying about the flack bursts. If one hits you well that’s tough. You can’t avoid them so you got on and do the job. Once you’ve dropped the bombs and taken the photograph then you can get out of the area as quickly as possibly and usually there’s a shout from the crew when I said, ‘Bombs gone.’ ‘Right. Let’s get out of here.’ And so it was [pause] if I, I was not, I was never afraid except in coming up to it wondering how we were going to get through. So there was no fear involved. A lot of apprehension. I’m sure we shall be alright and that was really our attitude throughout.
Interviewer: That is a remarkable story. I mean we who have obviously not done it but read a little bit about it —
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: Can understand something of what you’re saying there. It’s a remarkable story, John.
JB: Yes, it’s a bit, it’s akin to the Army coming out of the trenches in the First World War and going en masse across open ground and bullets were flying around. Some of them got hit. Some of them were missed and I think in that respect we were going through all this hail of flak. Somebody got hit, somebody didn’t and we were very fortunate and there was no way you could miss it.
Interviewer: No. And of course, you all lived this strange existence whereby between operations you’d be living a normal life in so far as it could be normal. How did you cope with those ups and downs of feelings and tensions and things?
JB: Well, yes. We’d use our relaxation in the usual way by going to the pub in the evening or into Boston. There was a weekly trip into Boston on the buses and so there would be big relaxation there. But it was just a matter of going to a different pub you know and the crew normally went. Crews went together. They lived together and they drank together and they flew together and so you went with your, with your, the crew were your mates, your friends and it was that sort of thing. Yes. You just, you were thankful when you got to the, to the reported to the flights in the morning to see what was going on for the rest of the day. If there was no operation planned well that was a great relief. You could get on with something else. Go and clean the aeroplane or check it over or take somebody for a flight somewhere. There was always somebody going on leave and it was a fairly easy business flying people around to, you know on a jolly. Well, not a jolly but you know taking them to where they wanted to go for leave or something like that. Or visit another, another airfield. So yeah, we relaxed as much as possible and then got hyped up when it was due for operational flight.
Interviewer: Yeah. Could you, I mean I think I could talk to you all day here, sir. I really could but I appreciate the time is passing. Your time in particular. But I must ask you could you tell us something about some of the other characters that you remember from 617?
JB: 617. Yes. There’s a thing about remembering the crews on the Squadron. I always found it difficult to remember their names mainly because the only names that appeared on the operations board were the pilots. So we knew all the names of the pilots but I didn’t know the names of most of the crews. I might know the names of two or three bomb aimers because the bomb aimers used to go to a briefing together and each member of the crew had his own briefing section. So gunners would know other gunners and I would know two or three other bomb aimers but generally you didn’t know too much about the other crews. You didn’t mix with them obviously for, you know, recreational purposes. But I remember several of the pilots. I can’t remember any particular episodes but they obviously occurred when I was commissioned. I then moved in to the Petwood Hotel and what was the Petwood Hotel then and there were several incidents of people letting off revolvers late at night and behaving in an unseemly manner but being allowed to get away with it with an admonition from the CO. ‘Don’t do it again.’ There wasn’t much he could do about it if you, if you, you know went over the line. But I kept myself to myself because I was, I was escorting a WAAF who later became my wife and so I was otherwise engaged.
Interviewer: As it were. Yeah. Again, I feel I must ask this question. I don’t wish to intrude too much in to your privacy but you know if if you have a strong personal relationship like that and you’re going off on operations was it something that you just accepted?
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: Or did you talk it through with your fiancé as she would have been?
JB: Yes, we did talk it through. She was, she was actually employed in the map section so I had to visit the map section every day and of course I visited more often than most [laughs] naturally and so I went to the Intelligence Section for details of the targets and so forth and she knew as all the ladies did that were engaged to be married to aircrew that they were in a great deal of danger. When I got to the point of approaching my fiftieth operation because you could, you could retire after thirty and we didn’t. We continued flying. When you got to fifty you had another, another stage point where you could say ok. She said, ‘I think we ought to think about the future because –’ and I knew the odds were becoming shorter. They certainly were. And this was proved to me after I left the Squadron because I went back to visit the Squadron in November and I had a chat with my pilot and he said, ‘Oh you retired just in time.’ Apparently, they were shot up on the next operation coming back from Brest and flak actually went through the bomb aimers compartment. Missed the bomb aimer because he was standing up in the turret. Now, I didn’t normally stand up in the turret. I was usually lying down. So was it fate? I don’t know. But I retired at the right time.
Interviewer: I think at that point with regret I must ask that we terminate this. It’s been a total pleasure and total privilege to conduct this interview. For the record I should say that I have been conducting this interview with John Bell, bomb aimer of 617 Squadron and the interview was conducted at Thorpe Camp on the 12th of May 2012.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Bell
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v37
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:19:37 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
John Bell completed a tour as a bomb aimer with 619 Squadron. The crew decided they would like to continue flying and so volunteered to join 617 Squadron. They were interviewed by Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and accepted on to the squadron. When John was approaching his fiftieth operation his fiancé asked him to consider retiring from operation flying. He knew his luck was running low and so he did indeed retire. When he visited the squadron later his pilot told him he had retired just at the right time. The next flight after John stopped flying with his crew a piece of flak entered the bomb aimer’s compartment who survived because he was standing in the turret.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-06
Contributor
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Julie Williams
617 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
coping mechanism
ground personnel
Lancaster
military ethos
perception of bombing war
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/525/8759/PNorringtonAW2201.2.jpg
7686919a7015466f48da7f5869802ecc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/525/8759/ANorringtonAWJ160827.2.mp3
984821193f71d0d37a1129cf4387f750
Dublin Core
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Title
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Norrington, John
Alfred W Norrington
A W Norrington
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Norrington, AW
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Norrington (1876617 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin, the interviewee is Mr Alfred Norrington although Alfred is often known as John and will be referred to by that name in this interview. The interview is taking place at Mr Norrington’s home in Bramhall, Cheshire. John I wonder if I could ask you to start by telling us a little bit about your life before you joined the Royal Air Force?
JN. Well my life as a young lad, I can remember always wanted to be on the engineering side. I was always keen on pulling pieces, things to pieces and putting them back together again and then oh, the war started and we was under the bomber, German bomber run to London. At night times we’d hear the bombs come down and then we would be in the shelter and I was growing up into the war area as it might be. The bombs were dropping close to us and I used to think to myself ‘when I grow up I am going to get back at you.’ We’d lie in bed at night time, we’d hear the droning of the bombers and the synchronised sort of drone ‘woom, woom’ and we could tell it was Germans. Anyway er I decided I was working away, going to work and I wanted to go join the Air Force. I was working, I was in a reserved occupation, lorry driving and two of my mates came home on leave one was in the Air Force and one was in the Navy. So we decided to go to London for a day out. I thought meself overnight, I’m going to join up, I am going to volunteer at Romford on our way to London. So the following day we got the bus and we got off the bus at Romford. And I went into the volunteering, enlisting place at Romford and I said I wanted to join, I wanted to volunteer for aircrew in, on Lancaster bombers. So they took my name and address and then we continued to London and had a good day. The following day I went to work and my boss said to me ‘where did you get to yesterday?’ I said ‘I took the day off and I went to London and I volunteered to join the Air Force.’ He said ‘Oh alright then.’ About three weeks later, I went home, went to the office for my orders and my boss said ‘I have had a letter from the Air Force about you.’ I said ‘Mmm.’ He said ‘They were asking me if I am willing to let you go.’ So I said ‘Well I hope you said yes.’ So he said ‘I know you want to go, so I have said yes.’ Fast forward about another five weeks and then I got me calling up papers to go to Cardington for medical, oh I was successful there and then it was about another week or two before I got me final papers to go to London to join the Air Force and be kitted out. From there we went to ITW. It was, it was two, one was at near Bridlington and then another one we went up, oh up north, up north near. Anyway, I went through the ITW work and then after that, mind you we had a leave in between and from then we went to St Athans and.
JM. ITW is initial training?
JN. Wing. Yes.
JM. Could you tell us what you did on ITW?
JN. Well, it was mainly discipline, I had to talk about the Air Force er managing of it, the leave, the respects of what you were doing. It was mainly disciplining young men, you know to be subservient to orders from people with authority which was very nice. I thoroughly enjoyed it and then I came home for another leave after then and then from there we went to straight to St Athans. Then for to do Air Force place at St Athans.
JM. St Athan in South Wales?
JN. South Wales yes.
JM. And that was for engineering training?
JN. That was for the engineering training and then we had sort of, in the hangar we had tables. In the hangar there must have been about ten to twenty tables each with an Air Force corporal around each table and around each table there was about four sometimes six students us us, ourselves, you see. And then we would take notes we‘d have maybe a week on electrical systems, we‘d have a week on pneumatics, we’d have a week on flying controls, we’d have a time on er automatic pilots and we’d have time on fuel flows, fuel systems, emergency fuels. Everything regarding the flying of the Lancaster and also you would have emergency drills and then also you would have certain days of physical training. You could do what you wished, whether it was boxing in the gym, running, out running I used to like running, things like that. Weight lifting and then you would go in and then you would follow it up with another subject. Er, you got, the leave occasionally you got to go home and then after well, after what was is it about nine months, oh quite a while, eight to nine months at St Athans we was really trained and then we had the examination and this was really, really serious. But right from the word go I have always been interested in anything mechanical and even remembering when I went for my interview er about joining the Air Force. I sat before a board there was five Air Force officers there and they were asking me what I wanted. I said ‘Engineering, I want to be a flight engineer, nothing else, I am going for that.’ And they asked me, one or two questions, how to time an engine. Well with working on the lorries in the, the garage at home before I joined up, used to, we’d do all our own repairs and I quoted how to time a petrol engine, right from the word go, the sequence of getting the cam, the distributor right, the er valve timings right, things like that and the chap who was leading said ‘That’s very good thank you very much.’ I said ‘Also do you want to know how to time a diesel engine?’ [laugh] He said ‘No’ he said ‘we won’t have that’ he said, ‘there is no diesel engines on aircraft yet.’ But anyway, anyway I was accepted, I got a, not boasting I come out top on the passing out parade and I had to lead it. The flight sergeant of our squad who was just behind me, just to the left. There was, there was sixty on the little squad what I was leading. We had the parade round the St Athan‘s parade ground, there was the air commodore on the flag, under the flag pole to take the salute and I am marching out in front. I was about six paces in front of my squad who were eight across and about twelve back things like that. So we were walking away and the sergeant who was walking just behind me instructing me, he said ‘When you get level with the, the platform that he’s on’ he said, ‘Order eyes squad, number one squad eyes right.’ So I said ‘All right then.’ So we are marching away there and I was leaving it a little bit late and he went, ‘Eyes right, eyes right.’ Out of the corner of his mouth. Anyway I gave the order ‘Eyes right’ and took the salute and the rest it went off like nice. I came out after we passed out we got leave and er I came home and I was telling my father that I led the parade, he said ‘Oh good heavens if I had known’ he said, ‘your mum and I would have been up there on the train.’ Anyway that was work and then from there I went up to Sandtoft I think it was and from there, there was, there was er, what were we doing? [pause] put it off just one second, tape wasting. Erm, talking away about the engineer and oh I have forgot the sequence of it now. We was, there was about twelve engineers, or temporary flight engineers in training went to Sandtoft and then we used to get out onto the airfield and we go on the aircraft, on the Lancasters that were still training and the pilots that were flying them were also training. We used to go on as a spare bod as just for the experience of going up in the Lanc, the Lancaster. The first time I went up it was quite an experience. I had never ever been up in an aeroplane before in my life and I sat in the mid upper turret. It was vacant there wasn’t a mid upper gunner at the time for whatever reason and flying around there and er it was a Czechoslovakian crew or Polish we had loads of those coming over flying. And we flew, we were doing just circuits and bumps and we were going downwind and a bird flew into one of the air intakes on the starboard outer. Of course that was an emergency for the crew, they feathered the engine but the point was they started jabbering in their native language and I thought to myself ‘Good heavens, what is going to happen now?’ Anyway, anyway we went down, they feathered the engine and come in and did a three point, a landing on three engines. So that was my first little experience of what might happen. But I never ever thought that anything was going to happen to me, you know you always thought you was clear of everything. After about five weeks there doing this that and the other, still having discipline and training, map reading and things like that, we sent, got sent to I think Sandtoft, another Sandtoft and from there we, I was crewed up. Went into the sort, one of the huts on the site and all the other crews that had just come in were there to be crewed up. Other crews come in, they had been flying Wellingtons. They got the knack of twin engines you see and they did their training on Wellingtons, but the crews were going on to Lancaster’s. Well they needed then an engineer and that is where they met the engineers. Anyway we was all in this hut and our names were called out and then, ‘Sergeant Norrington’ yes, ‘Sergeant Norrington with Flying Officer James.’ Oh I was just going to say, when I passed out at St Athans and went up to the what’s it’s name school, I can’t quite remember when I got me wing at St Athan, I think I got me wing [telephone rings]. Yeah got me wings and then we got crewed up and, and came out and the crew introduced themselves and things like that. And the following day we went, we were crewed up to go onto a ⸻oh sorry we went at Sandtoft we was converted onto Halifaxes, seemingly the Halifax had a stronger undercarriage than the Lancaster. So everybody going to fly Lancasters had to do their training, I think it was about eight weeks or something like, training on the, on the Halifax. So that was it, while I was waiting when I got to Sandtoft we had to go in and be re crewed, reassessed on the fuel system of the of the; Halifax. Now engines, flying controls everything was identical to the Lancaster which I had learned. Got really into that and then the Halifax had a different size type of system. So we had to learn all about the fuel system, how to change tanks, emergency tanks on, on the Halifax. And that was it, passed out on that and then from there we went over to Hemswell which was the Lancaster Finishing School and that was where we really got into a Lancaster, oh, the feeling was marvellous.
JM. Can I just take you back a bit because you are one of those people who had the opportunity to fly both aeroplanes. How would you assess the Halifax by comparison to the Lancaster.
JN. Oh not a touch, not a touch. It had, the Halifax had quite a few problems, stalling, it used to drop the port wing viciously so you weren’t allowed to try or to learn when you were training, you weren’t allowed to do any stalling moments on the Halifax unless you was above twelve thousand feet, to give you time. But other than that it seemed to be to me, I suppose it was preference with me wanting the Lancaster it seemed to be a lumbering type of aircraft. I wouldn’t say I, I enjoyed the time that I had with it, things like that. I enjoyed the different systems, every time I had to change fuel tanks I had to go back to the middle of the aircraft between the spars. That’s where all the fuel cocks were then go back up again. We passed out we did circuits and bumps and then cross countries, bombing, bombing targets at home and then we were then going to Lanc, Lancaster Finishing School where we got to the Lancaster.
JM. So you were at Hemswell north of Lincoln, not far from Scampton.
JN. Yeah, that’s where the Lanc, where we finished up before we went onto the squadron and er I remember going on, on to, to the Lancaster and there was a second pilot an instructing pilot, ex tour, tour expired pilot who was give, teaching the up comers all of the things like that. So we taxied out and then we pulled onto the runway, we all did all our final checks and then right we’ve got a green from the caravan and so he, he what we used to call him, the spare, not spare, I’ll remember it in a minute. The spare pilot.
AM. Duty pilot?
JN. No, no it will come to me in a minute [laugh]. He said ‘Right, off you go James.’ Lyle the skipper he just opened the throttles right the way up and we did more or less a left hand turn on the engines. So anyway this co-pilot pulled the throttles back, he said ‘Now James,’ he said ‘that’s your first introduction to airscrew torque.’ So he, all right so we taxied around and came back onto the runway that we come on and he said ‘Now when you go when you lead with the throttles, if you open the throttles like that it goes round. The airscrew torque will say goes to the left.’ So what we had to do when we started off, the four throttles like that you started to open up and you finished up with throttles like that. You’d have the port outer flat out, the port inner on three quarters, the starboard inner half - [unclear]what and the starboard outer that would be ticking over. And then the skipper would, we would go forward on a run and then at twenty miles an hour the tail would come up and then the pilot could steer the aircraft with the rudders. By this time then we were about a quarter down the runway and then I as an engineer, used to have my hand behind the throttles and the skipper used to say ‘Full throttle.’ And I would put the stick right way through up to the gate and lock it on with the friction what’s its name. Then we would go up, things like that. The pilot only touched the throttles twice during a flight. The throttles he had command over at the initial run till he got, it was about sixty miles an hour when the tail come up, things like that. And then coming in to land, skipper would just open up until the tail come up and then I would take over, that was it and the rest of the time I would handle all the throttles, the fuel systems, things like that. Then coming into land when we got permission when we come in onto the funnels and it was pancake, then the skipper would have the throttles coming in to until he had got his stall out and then he would throttle back. That was the only two times that the pilot ever touched the throttles, the rest of the time was the engineers.
JM. So you were doing your OTU training at Hemswell, you were learning how to fly the Lancaster.
JN. Yes.
JM. Did you do any of the leaflet raids or any of the other raids?
JN. No.
JM. You never did any?
JN. No, we never come onto that no, we just did the straight, at Hemswell the straight cross country what’s its names – [unclear] things like that and then we went over to the squadron. We was on the Squadron 101 for about three days when we got our first op.
JM. So you were at Ludford Magna?
JN. Yeah we went onto Ludford Magna that’s where we⸻
JM. You were just posted there, it wasn’t a question of choice?
JN. Oh no, no, no choice we just went over, straight over there, I remember getting into the van and all of us. Two or three crews went over there and er, and we did, we did three ops. As I say there was no, looking at that photograph up there in the dark and when we opened the throttles for the first time, the first op and I thought to myself ‘What have I let myself in for here.’ Anyway off we went then down the runway and ah, we did, I think it was four, about four ops and then the skipper called us together and he says ‘They are asking for a volunteer crew to go onto Pathfinders.’ And he said ‘We wondered.’ We just had a coffee outside the NAAFI van, it used to come round, things like that, we’re having a coffee. So all the crew was there, even the special wireless operator, we will talk about him in a moment. Called us together and they said, he said ‘We were asking for volunteer crews.’ But he said ‘I want a hundred per cent agree, agreeance before we go for it.’ Well we all agreed except the wireless operator who was married. He was the only one married amongst us, a Lionel Wright from Screwling [?]near Chatham, he said, oh he said ‘I object to it,’ He said ‘I am quite prepared to do what I signed up to do,’ he said ‘but I have seen what we are going through’., He said ‘so no’, oh, no, he said ‘no, I won’t volunteer for it.’ I forgot to mention the proviso if you could proviso, your tour of operations ceased at three and you went over to do your thirty ops again. For what ever reason that’s what Lionel said, he said ‘I’ve done the three ops’ he said, ‘I know what we are going to go through.’ So he said ‘No I am not going to do that.’ I don’t doubt if those three ops had have counted he might have said yes. But anyway that was it so Lionel said. The skipper said ‘well no, all right.’ He said ‘you know what your mind is and we will take you.’ So we didn’t go on, we stayed on with Ludford Magna. The first op we did it really opened my eyes you know, it is quite frightening to the point of it, you know you just wondered what was going to happen but I was that occupied I always, I never sat down, I always stood up at the front and when I am stood up my head was about the same height as the pilot ‘cause he had a little seat a little bit higher. So it was quite a level talking field if we spoke but it was also through the mike. Even if you spoke through the mike you automatically spoke to the pilot, you see. And then we went on and I managed to take in what I had let myself in for. Er, along the way we had incidents every track, trip, every trip there was something happened what it was happened. Erm, the daylight oh er, the daylight trips, when you do, did the first daylight it certainly opened one’s eyes about on the bombing run. When you think you had all the bombers airport, bombing commands up the east coast right from the north right down to Essex well they were all bombing the same target. They were all leaving at the same time you were about six hundred mile on the coast, they were all going over and they were all converging by the time you get to the target you get all the Bomber Force and hundred to two hundred bombers all over “H hour.” But the first three to four ops in the night we didn’t realise you just went [sneeze] ⸻excuse me⸻ there was only you up there, things like that, things like that. Anyway the first daylight we went, oh it would be frightening there. It was a little incident we was flying along we was on the bombing run and just to our left was eh B Baker from our Squadron, Flying Officer Tibbs. Only – [unclear] like that. Then there was us and then on the bombing run it was quiet. The skipper will not entertain any casual talk, it was strict like that. ‘Cause he said, he always used to say the navigator wants complete silence ‘cause whoever spoke everybody heard you know. He wants complete silence ‘cause he was mustard our navigator. Anyway was flying on at stage one it was Duisburg and along came, off to our starboard wing came a Mosquito things like that and he had a bit of plaque on the side “Associated News Agencies”. Anyway we were going in the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer is going ‘Steady, steady,’ things like that anyway the skipper, and he looked, things like that, the next minute he went up over the top, this Mosquito went up over the top. He came between us and Tibbs, things like that. Anyway as he got to Tibbs we don’t know what happened then. The following day in the paper there was a photograph of this Lancaster dropping its bombs. What’s his name and I think it said ‘The photograph of the war.’ Our special wireless operator David Burnett he, he wrote down to London to the what’s its name about it and asked. They sent two photographs back which I’ve got over there of the bomb and it showed you the bombs coming down from B Baker. It said the photograph of the war in the paper, now if that Mosquito had stayed where it was for another four to five seconds, what have you that photograph would have been Mrs Norrington’s little boy John in the photograph of the war. But anyway he came over and he was right beside Tibbs you could see the air, the roundel, B Baker. And I was having me main ops egg and chips with Sergeant Hewitt his engineer about four to five hours before. It is marvellous how little ones went on like that, so we got that. Another time er it was I forget without referring to it, if I, it was, Guy Gibson was our master not target indicator, not, not, not Pathfinder bomber, bomber, bomber Mosquito. They used to get to the target, mark the target with a parachute and on the end of the parachute was a flare, things like that and we would come along eh we didn’t, we couldn’t bomb indiscriminately we had to bomb on instructions. We were on the bombing run and Guy Gibson came over ‘Strongbow one to strongbow two,’ he says ‘I am at three thousand feet, I can see everything.’ He said ‘give em hell, give em phutt.’ And that was the end of Guy Gibson. What had happened oh his instruction was ‘Overshoot red two, drop the what’s its name down to the TI and then it might drift.’ We used to come along Gordie the bomb aimer, he come along and he would bomb that flare, things like that. Well when the wind drifted it would take it away from the carpet. So then Gibson would come in and say ‘overshoot the red TI by two seconds.’ Or ‘undershoot’ and things like that and that was the way it goes. Anyway that was it we read the paper the following day where Guy Gibson he’d gone and I got the photograph of that raid and they were saying. And also a picture of Guy Gibson’s grave, just inside what’s its name erm.
JM. What do you think happened to Gibson, ‘cause some people say he was shot down by one of our gunners but the general feeling is that he crashed the aeroplane because he didn’t know how to handle the Mosquito, do you ever think ⸻
JN. Oh no,no, no, once I know he was flying the Lancaster he flew the Lancaster “Dambusters” I mean once you fly, flown ‘cause when you’re training you go up from small to big you just don’t go in feet first. He knew what he was doing. I would think, he said ‘I am at three thousand feet.’ Well when you think of all the, all the Lancasters while they are dropping bombs and he is down at three thousand feet. Now whether it clipped him something like that but I mean he landed in Sweden was it about hundred, hundred and twenty five say a hundred and fifty mile away from where he went silent. So what happened then I don’t think I think he had to go down, and he wouldn’t crash land. He, he it’s all, you don’t know what to think. But that was, was what’s its name and when other bomb, target markers they talking around there, you know him and the deputy. You know it’s like they, talking outside a café having a drink of tea you know. Then we would erm, over the target the bombs would go and the Lancaster used to give a bit of a shake. You could feel the bombs dropping away there and then we would turn onto a reciprocal course for home. About half an hour before we got to the target the navigator would always come on and say after, after the what’s its name, after the target, ‘if anything happens head for this direction.’ That direction compass reading and that will be the nearest American forces or English forces to get down and things like that. Then also he would give the skipper his reciprocal course out of the target. It must have been oh maybe about a fifteenth or sixteenth, well through the tour and was approaching the bombing run and coming on, Lancs was coming up either side of us, you could see them and I thought of something, something was wrong, the sequence had failed what ever, I couldn’t put me hand on it. Anyway we dropped the bombs and we carried on and it must have been about quarter of an hour before I realised, ‘reciprocal!’ ‘Jeepers, crowthers, skipper’ said Jim.’ We’d all, everybody in that crew knew the drill before we got to the target where the navigator would give us our reciprocal course pilot to come out and which direction to head. And not one of the crew had remembered it ‘till we got over, well by this time we was about another hundred and fifty miles deeper into the what’s name. So the skipper turned round [laugh] upped the revs, ‘cause the throttle was fully open, the, the gate up increased the revs, he put the nose down and when you got to about a hundred and eighty it used to shake things like that. Come back, anyway we come back and we were that late getting back they got us down a bit of a, things like that. But would you think, you know, everybody had forgotten we would, you are always on the go as I say I was always on the go, looking around, looking up, marvellous that one. Anyway the special wireless operator David Burnett was – [unclear] was known as airborne cigars ABCs things like that. And we was a night trip and he came over the intercom and he says ‘Gunners’ he says ‘keep your eyes open,’ he says ‘there are two night fighters, they are arguing who is going to shoot a Lancaster down.’ The words hadn’t left his mouth [laugh] the mid upper gunner ‘Corkscrew starboard go!’ The skipper, you know never said what, straight down or went down nose down like that and think well, this 88 was coming from our starboard. Wherever they came, you went towards them and you went down, see, and went round, anyway I went up into the roof, hit me head, like that ‘till we pulled out. Pulled out and come over resumed the course and he went round and he come back again and so we did starboard, port down and this port down, another corkscrew. He went over and as he went across the top of us there was a Lanc off on our right wing he must have seen him coming, so he corkscrewed towards him to go down and as he went to corkscrew his wing, his starboard wing obviously went up to give him a tilt and this 88 got him and shot at him in his starboard wing. Anyway he levelled up and the flame, he caught fire in his starboard wing. We was watching him like that he was flying straight and level then and the flames were silhouetting the whole fuselage. We saw the rear turret, the rear gunner go out the back and we saw one, two, three, lost count going out. [unclear] you could only get out the front you couldn’t get out the back door ‘cause you went straight into the tailplane, thing like that you see it went out and then there was a pause and then the skipper came out, the last to come out. He got out and about a couple of seconds and she went down like that. Just so serenely went down but it all went like clockwork, the drill things like that and that was the, the mid upp, the.
JM. Special op.
JN. The [pause] the German speaking wireless op. They were all Jewish or of Jewish descent all of the, nearly every aircraft had one of these Jews and they were ⸻ ‘cause Jew wasn’t a bad, nasty word that people are calling it now, not really that way ⸻ but they had their own war against Hitler and it was their way of getting back and David Burnett he was only eighteen same as me, things like that, but he saved it, what’s it’s name, things like that saw them coming.
JM. Did they serve under their Jewish name or did they change their names.
JN. Oh no there was one, we had, we had two one that was Jacob, what was, I don’t think I got it in me what. Oh it will have it on it on the flight sheet, the bombing order, ops order got that one in there. And David Burnett well that’s an English name and things like that. But the first one we had he was quite a decent guy very rotund very very fat in other words. He used to sit at a table just behind the wireless operator and every op that we had after each op, oh for a starters when we were in the dispersal waiting to take off and Jacob would go round and collect anything he could find, bricks anything that would go into the flare chute. Now evidently when we dropped the bombs, the flare chute, the flare was synchronised with the bomb – [unclear] when he presses his button, the bombs go like and the flare goes down and it takes a photograph of what have we done you see. Well then Jacob used to sit beside the flare chute so after the bombing run the flare chute was empty and what he used to do, he used to throw these stones or these bricks, if you get a half house brick or a good house brick, they go down. He used to say ‘I have my own private war with zee Germans’ he says ‘when we are over zee target’ he says ‘I got dropping bricks onto them.’ So you can think of some poor German walking around clock, stop, stutter, woom [laugh] You know I used to laugh about it, but er⸻
JM. Could you hear them on the, on the intercom because their jobs was to pretend to be German radio operators weren’t they, could you hear that?
JN. Oh yeah. If ever he spoke, when ever he spoke he spoke but what he did on the what’s it’s names would be like, and he also saved us a bit once. Just shows you how, we were coming back and and it was bad weather at Ludford Magna and we were diverted. Now evidently what Lionel Wright our wireless operator he never got the message from base to divert, I think we diverted to Tangmere if I remember rightly. He, he never got it but David Burnett he was listening in and he heard that you know they’d come over, but he never heard Lionel tell the pilot or tell and also the navigator ‘cause he wanted to know anything like that. So he came over and broke in and says you know ‘There is a diversion for us.’ That was it so we went, come back, so that, it was another little thing that, a little anomaly. But er it was always about half an hour maybe, about three quarters of an hour from the target on a daylight and we used to, every now and again the skipper would come over and he’d go, ‘Rear gunner you all right there?’ ‘All right fine skipper.’ ‘Mid-upper?’ ‘Yes, fine skipper.’ Gordie the bomb aimer ‘You all right Gordie down there.’ ‘Oh a bit of trouble skipper me bomb sight should be’ well, he said ‘I have got it to pieces.’ ‘Oh what’s gone?’, anything like that.’ Well first thing I thought, now the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer‘s panel and the skipper’s blind flying panel are both worked by a vacuum. Now on the starboard engine there was and on the two starboard engines, on the two starboard engines there was a vacuum pump you see. And it came in the one on the starboard engine did the pilot, blind flying and the one on the port did the bomb aimers equipment. So and there was a gauge in the middle with a needle, things like that and that was always on for the blind flying panel. You used to look at it and you can see it there so that was it. Anyway Gordie the bomb aimer came on he said ‘it wasn’t on.’ The first thing I did was looked at the gauge well switch the gauge – [unclear] switch the gauge over and it was down. Well I thought, I said ‘What it is your, your vacuum pump on your engine isn’t working Gordie.’ ‘So what are we going to do?’ ‘I’ll switch it over to the other one.’ Now when I did that it def, it robbed the blind flying panel of the gyros you see, so I could only leave it for about two to three minutes. So I told him what I was going to do, obviously I told the skipper, things like that the gyros would do about twenty two thousand rpm in the blind flying panel. So I switched it over to Gordie, I said ‘Put your things back together,’ I said ‘you have got about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes.’ So I switched over to him like that, got it going. I said ‘I am giving you five minutes and then I will have to go back to the skipper‘s to keep his going.’ So for the bombing run I was to and fro ing things like that. That’s another little what the engineer did all the, everything was cropping up.
JM. Did the captain ever train you to fly the aeroplane in the event of him being injured.
JN. No,no I did flying at the ITW in a link trainer and I did some more in between me ops, when I was, when I finished me ops I landed up at West Raynham on MT. Lorry driving Queen Marys that type and I used to I got in touch well got to know the sergeant who was in charge of the link trainer and so I used to go in there. I have got that in me flying log book – I think, one or two. Oh when we were flying the Halifaxes on two or three times we had a dual control one so I used to get in then. Got it straight and level, that’s all I was bothered about then and then er, no I didn’t do any more. There is another time, it was a daylight oh, [laugh] we got heavy flak on a daylight coming up and we were hit, stop [recording stopped] The bombs, we get Flak and it hit the number two tank, things like that and the spray was coming out the back just like a vapour trail and I said to the skipper ‘We have been hit in the starboard wing.’ As I say it was a daylight and unless you, until you have flown at night time in a Lanc you don’t realise how the sparks are coming out. There is such a high compression engine that they are decarbonising are they are flying. So I thought, Oh, spray and sparks coming out. So I said to the skipper ‘I have got a leaky tank’ I said ‘I am going to switch all the gauges over, the tank cocks over to run all four engines off that leaking tank.’ So I got the engine, the radio operator who is sat near the cross feed tank cock in the middle of the fuselage, got him to turn that off. So what I started to do me, me gauges and, and cocks I started running all four engines off that leaking tank. Now there was about two hundred and fifty gallons in that tank but in the tank outside of that there was another hundred and fifteen gallons and that you can’t run off that, you have to transfer. The idea was you had to transfer that into number two tank, so I am running all four engines off a leaking tank and also transferring another hundred and fifteen gallons into a leaking tank things like that. So I cut the revs down to diminish the sparking effect because all that was in my control, all the skipper just had to do what he could. So he is sort of flying skew whiff a bit and then late, like it lasted about forty five minutes before all that fuel had gone dry you see and it seemed like an eternity on there. Anyway I am down off waiting for the red light, when the fuel pressure drops the red light comes on see, so I am waiting for that red light to come out before switching over to a full tank, you see. So I am down here by me cocks, my skipper was here, I was stood beside him and then my gauge, my fuel cocks were here, just round the corner. So I am waiting for the red light to come on to switch over to a full tank you see and anyway the skipper comes on the intercom and he says ‘I hope you’re keeping your eye on my fuel engineer’ he said, ‘I don’t want my engines cutting.’ I said ‘You fly the bloody aircraft’ I said, [laugh] ‘you fly the ruddy aircraft, I will look after this.’ And a couple of seconds later the light came in and so I switched over you see and then all I had to do then was start running off, the outer number two tank and then transfer that, because the skipper is having a job to keep that wing up. Anyway I started when I got stabilised and then I worked out so I said to the navigator ‘How many mile is it to the target?’ So he said ‘Oh, about five hundred.’ Well you could work an estimate out of one gallon per one mile as a rough. I never achieved that, I’ve achieved point nine five but never got to one. So that was a guide so I looked at me gauges so I said to the skipper ‘I said ‘we have got enough fuel to get to the target.’ So he said right and he carried on and little by little that weight came up so it got a bit more easier for him. We bombed things like that and then we turned round. I said to the engineer, said to the navigator ‘How many mile is it to the enemy coast?’ French coast, so he told me I think, ‘about six hundred.’ I forget the actual figures so I said ‘oh, skipper’, I said, ‘We have got enough fuel to get to our coast.’ So he said ‘All right,’ so I kept the revs down , we were coming down slowly and then we were approaching the coast I said ‘We’ve got enough to get home skipper.’ Things like that. Anyway the skipper cutting a long story short he got a DFC for pressing on things like that and when he got it he dedicated it to the crew and things like that, so that was another one that. Erm, another daylight. We got, we got [laugh] have you seen the Mae West haven’t you?
JM. Yes.
JN. Well, big sort of cover round here, well, the astrodome is up there and the wireless operator is sat here things like that and down beside him he used to have his side pack like you got with Very cartridges. He had a Very pistol which was a massive big what’s it’s name it had so much kick when you use it you had to put it into an an into a –[unclear] into the roof and fire it on accounts of the kick. That was decided what’s its name, if we got flak and the astrodome more or less ripped away, things like that. Some flak, some flak had come down [laugh] cut his collar off, things like that, cut his collar off [laugh].
JM. Cut his collar off?
JN. Yeah he used to have a moustache, I never seen a moustache drop so quickly [laugh] all things like that, that chopped that away and when he looked inside his bag, some flak had gone in, now the, the car, cartridges as well about inch, inch in diameter something like that and you get the percussion cap in the middle, there was six of them in there and some flak had, and it had gone right beside the percussion cap. If the flak had hit that percussion cap that would have gone up and it is right beside a fuel line, it went across – [unclear]. So [laugh] he was looking after us that day up there. Oh dear, happening.
JM. John would you tell us about your crew, you talked about a couple of members, could you tell us who they were and something of their backgrounds.
JN. Well for a start, got to know them, obviously we was all different characters. The, the, the skipper he had his little, he was twenty eight, he was working part time, well part ownership of an engineering shop he wanted to fly he joined up and he was learning his training in a Tiger Moth and as a check he is flying over somewhere in Canada there was a chap out duck shooting and evidently the noise of the Tiger Moth scared the ducks, he couldn’t get the, so he shot at the aircraft. So poor Lyle he got some flak in his backside, his back cheeks [laugh] to this day he still got it in, that was a flight coinc, anyway. He came over and they went onto what’s its name Air Speed Oxfords then onto Wellingtons, then onto course. The bomb, bomb aimer Gordie Bullock he came from Northern Canada and he was a gold miner, worked down the mines, things like that, he was quite a character. He was a flying officer the skipper was flying officer and the navigator he Bob, Bob Irvine he was in, he was an academic, Saint, something to do with teaching but not actually a teacher. Those were the three the main crew. Wright, Lionel Wright the wireless operator he came from Strood as I said, things like that. I didn’t know much what he did. Johnnie Walker was the rear gunner he was younger than I and you know, he was just eighteen same as me, he was a bit, a bit of a loner. He never sort of came with us, he was friendly and things like that but he just done his job. Erm, he used to, used to talk occasionally over the what’s its name, skipper would ask him if he was all right you know. And every time, every time we dropped the bombs skipper used to say ‘all right Gordie,’ Gordie ‘all right skipper, bombs gone.’ ‘let’s get the hell out of here.’ [laugh] – [unclear] ‘Bombs gone.’ And the voice used to come from the rear gunner ‘let‘s get the hell out of here.’ Get back home. Erm, another daylight we got flak and down, ‘where was it?’ [unclear] Down the side of the aircraft here there was two rods one did the rudders, the others did the elevators. Two rods about an inch wide, inch in diameter, two rods like that all the way down from front to back, down that side of the aircraft. Skipper, skipper if he did this the rods would go back and forwards with the rudders, you know like that. Anyway got this flak tat tat tat, tat all over the place and then the skipper came over and he called and he said to me, ‘Me controls is jammed engineer.’ So I said ‘All right then I’ll have a look,’ So took me oxygen, put, disconnected me oxygen mask and then put me portable on ‘cause with the oxygen level but then I didn’t have any communications. Didn’t have, didn’t have a portable communication like that. So I unplugged and I went back looking down and as I walked back these two rods, well they used to work like that in runners. Some flak had come through from the outside and it had come up, and it had pierced, and it had jammed between two runners, the two what’s its name things like that. And it couldn’t, that’s what it was you see anyway so I got me portable oxygen bottle and I managed to knock that out, things like that. I’m not, can’t talk to the skipper ‘cause I couldn’t say ‘oh it’s this, I am doing this, I am doing that.’ I managed to knock it out and it went, so then it was free he could tell, things like that. But [laugh] when I said to the skipper you know about the what’s its name ‘you fly the aircraft.’ You know I felt like when I was going to go back in you know ‘I am going back here now you fly the aircraft.’ But when I knocked it out that what it, and I would loved to have been able to get that piece of shrapnel, things like that was stopping it. Erm, ‘cause what he would have had to do is to fly on the trimming tabs you know, ‘cause it would have always have been the opposite, you wanted to have gone up you would have to go down. That was another incident that everything, coming up oh.
JM. Can I just? [Appears to be doing some adjustment to the recorder]
JN. Yeah, yes we come back from an op one daylight day, come back from an op and called up airfield, William Squared [?] airfield what’s its name “Pancake.” So coming in and they said ‘There is a bit of a cross wind.’ So came in Lyle ready for it, anyway we planned, flared out come down and this wind caught us, so Lyle the skipper said ‘Overshoot!’ so first thing I did, open the throttles right away, straight away –[unclear] and then the starboard outer engine cut so next thing I’ve got to feather I said ‘I am feathering.’ Things like, which takes about four minutes, five minutes, seconds, four seconds, five seconds to get the drag off that aircraft and Lyle struggled with it. How he kept it going I don’t know, anyway we had full power on the three engines and that way, and we took off and got up on the circuit. Come out of the circuit so I said ‘Well when we get to the circuit’ I said ‘I will unfeather and then we will do a test.’ So he said ‘All right then.’ So we unfeathered and got that working again and then I started running that starboard engine you know on the fuel flow, things like that and it hesitated once or twice things like that. So anyway we came back into land and after we went in to the crew room, then we had the message that the [bleep] so anyway as I said the red light was still on on our starboard undercarriage, so I said I would do some tests. So behind the, the wireless operator was the hydraulic tank and hydraulic pump for the undercarriage hydraulics. Well when the undercarriage goes down pump down when the jack reaches the end of the travel the pressure builds up so the cut out, there is a cut out on the, on the hydraulic system otherwise the pump will be pumping at nine hundred pound pressure right away. And that cut out used to go ‘bang!’ things like that. So I said to Lionel, I said, ‘we are going to lower the undercarriage, come down’ I said, ‘tell me when you get the bang.’ So he is listening and said ‘Yes, I’ve got the bang.’ So I knew the pump was working and pushing it down. Now on the side there is a call light, every position had this call light. So if I pressed the call light mine everybody would get one and if they weren’t on they’d come on, pay attention to whatever is doing. Well that was in through the what’s its name, through the same switch. This is what I learned at St Athan on the electrics, well I came into being there. Now we had a two speed super charger M Gear and FS Gear to get up to the twelve thousand feet and change gear you know [laugh] well if the selection of that, if it, you never took off in FS Gear you always had to be into M Gear, medium super charge. Now if that was in FS Gear you used to get the red light, things like that. So I checked that and that wasn’t working and, and the other, other one is was the call light and then another light that went back, forget where that one went but I knew that they all went through, all went through this undercarriage switch, the, the hydraulic pump light went through this switch the indicator for the what’s its, undercarriage went down and I knew so that’s what it was. I said to the skipper ‘Well, I think it is the switch on the under cart’ thing like that, So I said ‘It’s up to you whether you, you know.’ So he called up so they said ‘we will divert you to Carnaby.’ Right on the Yorkshire coast. So we diverted over to Carnaby and we were coming in over, the, the you know the funnels lights, the lights of it coming in, they’re in the sea on the what’s its name so we coming in low it’s day light then coming in so the skipper says ‘good job they have got these, good job they have got these lights, because we’ve got paddle blades on the what’s its name if anything happens.’ Bit of a quip ‘If anything happens we’ve got paddle blades.’ We’re coming over the hedge and touch down and he said approaching, the skipper said ‘well all the crew go to the crash positions between the two spars.’ So I said ‘Well, do you mind if I stay here’ because I said ‘when you touch I will cut the engines, if it goes down on fire I will cut the engines.’ And he said ‘alright engineer thanks very much you do that.’ So we came over and sailing down and I looked beside me we were doing, well we could stall about eighty five things like that eighty five to ninety. We’re coming in and there is a fire engine right beside us before we touched down. Anyway Lyle come down and he kept that wing up, landed on the port wing the port wheel ‘till that went ‘till the air speed dropped then come down and we were all expecting whoosh. We just, before that, I cut the engines, cut down just down like that and she landed. Saying to myself ‘quickly!’ caught the engine and kept it running, things like that. But that was all on account of a little micro switch that wasn’t functioning everything like that, ah.
JM. John, as you got to the end of your tour, you did thirty operations.
JN. Thirty one.
JM. Thirty one, was it a time of tension as you got towards the end of the tour?
JN. No not really, no it’s, we got used to it we knew, we knew we all volunteered we knew what we were letting ourselves in for er, but there were loads of frights, I mean to say I wasn’t scared, there’s not any, you know, frightened, you are not where you are crying for your mother and things like that. The worse time, well three or four times where I felt really, really afraid you know was when we was attacked you know by the Junkers and then also when we got the fuel what’s its name. The tension of waiting for that fuel to be used up before a spark ignited it things like that. [unclear] but you knew what you had to do, I never faltered in doing what I do, it was the way I was trained. I was that interested into it you know, and I thought, well I can’t let the crew down. But if you’d made a mistake you were letting seven others go, you know, fall by the wayside. I just put it down to experience we’d be one daylight er, there was one off our starboard wing a Lancaster I’d been having a meal this is what happened on three times at the table having the main op, it was egg and chips that was a treat, main ops meal been having them I’d been at the table various table you know I didn’t sit with who [unclear] every day. The officers they were in their own mess they were, things like that, kept with them. But you get to know the persons, things like that and I been flying and I’ve seen on a beautiful daylight, I have seen one flak come up puff, puff, puff and I seen the one completely obliterated and I thought to myself. It was B Baker I been out, I was having a dinner with them, you just turn round and oh well you go on with it. Erm, collisions we used to get a lot of collisions if ever you get into a bombing run you know was the worst of all. Was on one bombing run and as the Lanc above us to the left oh about twenty feet above us and as I say when you leave the coast you are all sort of converging. So over the target you are gradually converging and this one was coming over and he had got his bomb doors open so I just tapped the skipper on the shoulder, things like that, steady, hold it there skipper, I said to the skipper ‘keep staring like that’ and he got his bomb doors open and as I say he is gradually converging things like that and our skipper was watching, ‘bomb doors!’ [emphasis] ‘bombs gone skipper’. None of this holding for a photograph, went over like that. Now I mean we didn’t see when they came down but we don’t know if they had gone down. We’d been in and seen the bombers, especially at night time, you see the bombers beneath things like that. If you see one between you out like that you know your bombs are not going to hit him but there’s you know somebody behind. Its, over the target it is catch as catch can you are all doing your best. But you used to get the ma, the master bombers in the Mosquitoes, you’d hear them milling around some of the funniest names call signs you know so that they weren’t sort of recognised, one might be. And they talk like you and I talking - [unclear] overshoot. Guy Gibson he was coming out so easily. ‘I am at two thousand, three thousand feet chaps give them I can see everything give them hell.’ And that was Guy Gibson gone.
JM. When you got to the end of your tour what happened to you after that?
JN. After the tour I came home on indefinite leave I got home, I went straight home down to Graves to me mum and dad. I was on leave oh, must have been about two month ‘cause I finished me tour and then you had this rest period. I think it was six months before you were due to go back on ops again you see. Went down there with me mum when I, when I left the squadron to go home they gave me some ration coupons and of course I went out with them they gave me just for so long. So I had to ‘phone up the Ludford, yeah Ludford Magna to send me. Anyway they sent me some more, what’s its name coupons for me mum and then I had a telegram to report to Brackla, Nairn right up Scotland right at the tip. So right they sent the travel warrant things like that, so I went up, caught the train, things like that, I think it took me nearly three days to get up there, all the way through changing and this that and the other got up to Brackla and Nairn was just about eight mile inboard. So I got up there [laugh] and I ‘phoned up the station you know to say I was here, would you send transport for me. So they said, I think it was about eight o’clock at night, maybe a bit less. ‘Oh’ he said ‘we are too busy for you tonight’ he said, ‘book in at the local hotel.’ So I booked into the local hotel and then the following day I got cal. Transport, transport came in for me and when I got to Brackla there was about six hundred expired aircrews like myself, things like that. But they were closing Brackla down, so I was only there for four days and then I went into the office he says ‘We’re gonna send you away’, he says ‘you are back on leave.’ He said ‘Where would you like to go? where would you like [emphasis] to go?’ I said ‘Well I have just had a long leave down at home,’ I said ‘I would like to go to me girlfriend, me fiancé in Bramwell.’ So he said ‘all right then.’ He filled, so I got a train down here and I was here in Bramwell with Nancy, we were courting then. I, I had permission from her Mum and Dad, come down and I was with them for about two to three months things like that. Then I got a call up to go to erm, West, West Raynham, West Raynham well he said, early on when I, I got finished I said ‘what I want to do, I want to go onto MT.’ With being a lorry driver before I joined up I was a, I used to come home from school on a night time. I’d be about twelve, thirteen and in the next road was a haulage contractors. I used to go round there and go out with the lorries, and come and fill them up with lorries, fill em up with petrol. And then of a weekend the governor would ask me if I would like to go in on a Sunday and help the fitter that used to do the repairs on a weekend and clean. I used to clean the parts, I’d get me self three shillings I think I used to have more more spends than me Dad used to get. We’d go in and then of course I was half working on the lorries and things like that. I was in my element and Ben the fitter he was quite a nice chap, thinking about it if I asked him a question he wouldn’t say ‘No, no get that cleaned, I want that clean.’ He would answer me and explaining to me, that’s where I learned to time an engine and things like that. I used to go out with things like that, it was marvellous. And then I said to the governor there that I would like to come when I leave school, ‘I would like to come and work for you.’ Used to go out with him. Anyway I left school on Friday and I started work on the Monday as a tail board monkey, things like that and we used to go up through London to the other side of London with oil and things like that. And the, the bomb the blitz had been going on during the night. We had gone up in the days there had been hose pipes over there. One it was in the paper, one a loc, a bus had got blown up, you might have seen it, on its side we went right by that and that is what inspired me more so. Cor, I would like to get back at that lot.
JM. I want to ask you about that John, you made that your motivation. When you got to the end of the war and you had done your tour. How did you feel about that, did you feel you had your revenge, how did you feel about what had happened.
JN. I felt that I had done my bit. I felt what satisfied or gratified that I had done my bit. I was glad that my boss let me go. Because I thought when I’d gone home on leave, I will give you an example in a moment. I’d gone home on leave and I’d seen other tall young men walking around and I used to think ‘Well why are they not in the service? Why are they not?’ Disregarding your rejecters you know. Conch, contryv [sic] what they call themselves. And then one weekend I got a leave, I came home, I was half way through me tour came home and er, I got a week, a week’s leave. I bumped into two of me school mates Ray, Ray [unclear] Rover? I can’t form it! He was in the Army and he was home on leave, he had been wounded he was and he was on the French Coast and he got wounded he came home. And the other one was a, see their faces he was in the Navy and he was in, he was out in the Atlantic on a victualling ship. The victualling ship used to carry food supplies and they used to rendevous in the Atlantic to feed the Destoyers things like that you see. He was on that and he come home on leave. So I met them I said ‘Well we will go to the Queens.’ To dancing tomorrow night, they said ‘alright.’ I said ‘I will see you in the bar downstairs.’ So I said ‘well let’s wear our civvies, I said ‘alright then.’ So we all three civvies, three young eighteen, eighteen and a half nearly nineteen old. And it was a narrow bar, about as long as this but just as wide and a little bar not much wider than the windows and the door and a table at this end about this length. So we walked in, two boys Ray and George they sat down we’re having a pint so I walked up to the bar. Now I know the manager of the Queens hotel ‘cause he used to be at the dance where we used to go dancing upstairs. Quite what’s its name and he was leaning one side of the bar on our side not behind the bar the barman there and then he had a colleague that was leaning on this sides. So we walked up, I walked up, ‘what you doing.’ ‘Oh three pints please.’ So waiting, he did me two pints, well I couldn’t, I couldn’t manage three, I hadn’t big enough hands. So I went back and dropped the two pints onto the lads and I went back and he was saying this ‘look at that lot there,’ he said ‘my son’ he was saying it so I could hear it. He said ‘Oh’ I said, the first time he said ‘my son’s out on a victualling ship, on a Destroyer.’ On a victualling ship that was it ‘out in the Atlantic.’ He said ‘look at this lot here.’ He was leaning away. So I came back, put the two glasses down and went back for me third one so I said to him, I said, ‘I couldn’t help overhearing what you was saying’ I says, I said, ‘but that chap on the left’ I said ‘he is in the Merchant, he is in the Navy.’ I said ‘and for all you know your son and his victualling ship might have been supplying to him.’ I said ‘the other one there’ I said ‘and he is home and he the war, injured, leave from France.’ I said ‘ he is in the Army’ I said ‘and now me’ I said ‘I’m in the Air Force.’ I said ‘I have just come home on leave.’ I said ‘I am on ops.’ I said. Anyway this chap who was talking he felt that ashamed, not the one who walked away and the owner of the what’s its name, I could tell he didn’t know what to do, didn’t know what to do. So that’s where I was glad, I was glad that I volunteered you know, thought, or probably wouldn’t have thought about it at the time. But if I had remained young working, things like that people might have spoken about me, ‘look at that young man there, my husband’s away you know fighting.’ All little things like that sort of turn over in your mind but.
JM. John, did you keep in touch with your crew once you’d finished your tour and are they still with us or what happened to them?
JN. Yes, yes the skipper sadly died about four, five years ago he was ah he was twenty eight he was. We finished ops and then I retired in nineteen seventy. We kept writing. He came over on holiday, he came over twice him and his family. Now we was here, I was up here then and obviously, he ‘phoned up he was at Chester. He said he would, he’d like to meet us, so we went over to Chester. I said oh, alright then we will go over and see them. So we went over to Chester, my mum was up on holiday me dad had passed away then. So David, Denise he wasn’t married then and my wife who was alive then and me mother we went over to Chester where they were. And talking away there things, we had a lovely meeting there and we took ‘em round. Prior to coming and I knew we was going over to see them so what I did, I saw my gaffer at work and I said ‘I have got my skipper over.’ Things like that ‘what’s the chance of bringing him round?’ I was on holiday at the time so I said ‘like’ so he said ‘yeah’ he said ‘I’ll get a pass for you.’ So, anyway we went over to pick them up and Lyle said ‘There is a little place nearby’ where one of his friends had been over, a lovely little church.’ He turned out to be a lay preacher after what’s name ‘and there is a stream rolling beside it.’ Sounds so tranquil so beautiful ‘and there is an organ.’ He said ‘and my friend said I would like to go and see it.’ I said ‘well alright if we can find out where it is.’ I asked a local, he said ‘just round the corner, some little place.’ We went in there with me mum, David and Denise and it was a lovely church, it was so picturesque, so help me Bob the organ was playing inside the church. That made Lyle‘s day, things like that. So we took him home and then from then I said ‘now we are going down as a surprise.’ So we drove over here, we drove them to Woodford and went in and I took them round the factory, things like that, I introduced them to the what’s is name, my foreman, gee [unclear] eh, eh William Squared was what’s its name MG 139 was their what’s its name. So I said ‘this is where it was made.’ He was over the moon with that, then after that we went out. We took them to a Chinese meal in Hazel Grove and then went back to Chester things like that dropped them off and then came back and it’s four o’clock in the morning after that day when David and I. Now point, best part was David could drive and he used to drive my car. So when we got over there when we sort of drove from the Chester hotel going down, David drove my car and I drove Lyle‘s car and he said ‘the biggest fear John’ he said, ‘I landed in London’ and they went into Tottenham Court Road somewhere to a car hire business.’ And he said ‘they had a Hillman Minx.’ He said ‘they turned me loose in Tottenham Court Road.’ And he had never driven on the wrong side of the road before so everywhere we went I drove his car and he liked it, very nice that worked out and then. I went seventy, I went over there on my own and had a nice entertaining three weeks over there. And then now he has passed away and now his son, no sorry his daughter Carol and her husband they come over. They are teachers, things like so it is nice for David and this they come over and they stay with David and Denise at what’s its name and the mid upper‘s son, mid upper gunner’s son Brian he lives right on the east, west coast of Canada he comes over occasionally he was here about two. So I keep in touch with them but it’s lovely, in my dotage I sit back and reminisce what has happened you know.
JM. John you have been absolutely marvellous this morning, thank you very much for your interview. I think you have really showed me just how complex the Lancaster is and the range of skills that you mastered absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed.
JN. My pleasure, my pleasure.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Norrington
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Julian Maslin
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-27
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Sound
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ANorringtonAWJ160827
PNorringtonAW2201
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:17:11 audio recording
Description
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John Norrington was a lorry driver when he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. After initial training, he went to RAF Sandtoft on Lancasters and Halifaxes; he crewed up with Flying Officer James, then was at RAF Hemswell for the Lancaster Finishing School. John was posted to 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna where he flew thirty-one operations in Germany and France until demobilised.
John discusses Czechoslovakian and Polish aircrew, Jewish personnel, and German-speaking servicemen tasked to listen to German radio communications and disrupt them. He talks about civilian and service life, military ethos, losses, plus personal recollections of Guy Gibson.
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
Germany
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Carolyn Emery
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
demobilisation
faith
fear
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Sandtoft
RAF St Athan
recruitment
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/212/3351/ABlackhamCP161023.1.mp3
41156d573a080b43ea5fb588daf52a1f
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Title
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Blackham, Charles Philip
Charles Philip Blackham
Charles P Blackham
Charles Blackham
C P Blackham
C Blackham
Description
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An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Charles Philip Blackham (1923 - 2019, 1624693 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 550 Squadron.
The was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Blackham, CP
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin, the interviewee is Mister Philip Blackham. The interview is taking place at [deleted] Cheshire, on the 23rd of October 2016. Philip, good afternoon.
PB: Good afternoon.
JM: Could I ask you to tell us a little bit about your family background, where you were born and brought up and where you went to school?
PB: Well, I went to Stockport School, which is a well-known secondary school in Stockport on the main Wellington road going south out of the town and I was there for four years and I rose from being seventeenth in the class to top of the class. Amazing because they decided to honour my parents who’d paid for me to go to the school, I hadn’t won a scholarship so I went on to be top of the class to my absolute amazement, sharing that top position with another young man in the class of twenty or thirty cadets and pupils and I got my school certificate with a distinction in art, believe it or not, and physics.
JM: So you have some science and maths in your background.
PB: Yes, I was a hopeless failure at chemistry. Otherwise I passed in everything.
JM: And what had you thought you would do with your life, had you got a choice of career in mind?
PB: I thought I was gonna be a priest at one stage but it didn’t happen, it didn’t go on in that direction. I became an apprentice in mechanical engineering at a very big and famous diesel engine company called Mirrlees, Bickerton & Day, a very, very wonderful firm which I had greatly admired and it’s just been dismantled in the last twelve months.
JM: And had you started your apprenticeship before the war began?
PB: No, the war was already starting, I think. I hope I’m right about that because I can’t be absolutely certain.
JM: Had you got any experience of flying? Had you ever thought of joining the Royal Air Force when you were at school?
PB: No, no, I hadn’t, no. I just wanted to get into the services cause there was a war on and my father had fought in the Great War and become very lame so I had to stand for [unclear] his good example, he was still alive and hobbling from war wounds in his legs.
JM: So you perhaps didn’t feel to join the Army but perhaps the RAF was a choice.
PB: Well, I had no interest in the Army whatsoever. The Air Force interested me because it was aeroplanes and petrol engines where of tremendous interest to me.
JM: So, your interest in engineering was really a factor of perhaps you becoming a flight engineer
PB: Oh yes, yes. I also became an engineer, I took the engineering qualifications at Barry, South Wales.
JM: Right. When you were in the RAF.
PB: Yeah, qualifying, after qualifying as a pilot, took the engineering degree as well.
JM: Right.
PB: And I still got the certificates.
JM: Let’s go back a bit. What age were you when you joined the RAF?
PB: About seventeen or eighteen.
JM: Seventeen or eighteen. Had you seen anything of the air raids against Manchester or Liverpool?
PB: Yes, yes, we had a bomb in our own garden in Stockport, a district known as Edgeley and this was a plane that was dumping its bombs I think and the neighbour tried to throw a sandbag on a firebomb and while he went to fetch another sandbag because the first one burst, a high explosive bomb dropped, about as near as that wall there.
JM: That must have done a lot of damage.
PB: And I had me motorbike, I was, I must have been seventeen cause the motorcycle at the time had been inverted so I could fit a bicycle dynamo to it, cause it wasn’t an electrical motorbike, it had an acetylene light, 1929 model, I was very fond of it, it was a lovely thing and I got it going extremely well, used to take people out on it, going horse riding in the country in Cheshire. All over the place on a 1929 Raleigh motorbike so I was fond of engines.
JM: Right.
PB: And I had totally rebuild that engine myself. So I was going to be an engineer and I was and in due course became the chief, something, the title for my position in Mirrlees, Bickerton & Day, [pauses] I’ve forgotten the title.
JM: Doesn’t matter.
PB: I had a big title for the whole of Europe at London office, they moved me from Hazel Grove, Stockport to the west side of London.
JM: I imagine you could probably have stayed in that company during the war as a reserved occupation.
PB: Yes, they were trying to reserve me and I wanted to get out to it and get into the services.
JM: Why did you think so strongly to, that you wanted to join up?
PB: I wanted to be in the action because the war was at its worst at the time, at the time of the Blitz and the bombing.
JM: So, we’re in 1940, the summer and the autumn of 1940.
PB: Yes, I can’t see you very clearly by the way, there is a very bright light behind you. I don’t know whether the curtains could be closed, could they, just to reduce the strength of the light, that’s a good idea, thank you.
JM: What did your family say when you told them that you were going to sign up?
PB: Nothing. They just, they accepted it, there was a war.
JM: Did you have brothers perhaps, at all, older brothers?
PB: Yes, my brother came with me into the Air Force, my older brother and he was recruited, conscripted, I volunteered, so I could be with him,that was how it happened.
JM: Right. Do you remember where you went to enrol?
PB: Oh, I’d been in the Home Guard already, by the way, I had no interest in the Army, I had been a Dad’s Army member, a very happy one too and I used to walk home down our road from the Headquarters of the Home Guard to my house carrying a rifle and ammunition. That wouldn’t be allowed now, would it?
JM: No, it wouldn’t.
PB: At my young age and I had the amazing experience of being told, if you don’t stop asking stupid questions you’re gonna be thrown out of this lecture room. That was what the Commanding Officer said to me.
JM: And what were the stupid questions you were asking?
PB: Oh, just quizzing him about things he was lecturing us on, I’m sorry, I can’t tell you exactly.
JM: Well, they weren’t stupid questions if you were, seeking clarification.
PB: They weren’t stupid questions, they were questions about six rounds, rapid fire between yonder bushy top trees,that was the sort of terminology. And I became a Home Guard driver eventually, that’s another thing that levered me towards being a motorist. I knew how to drive but hadn’t driven, so I got myself into headquarters where the, there’s an Armoury in Stockport, a major building for military purposes called the Armoury, and I got myself recruited there as a driver and took a party of Great War veterans with their respirators and tin hats to a village nearby, name was Marple, in snow and ice, and I’d never driven before ever [emphasises] on the roads, but I had a motorbike, so I knew what the rules of the roads were, this 1929 Raleigh which was my pride and joy incidentally and got myself to Marple which is a very, very hilly area and I was stupid enough to get the passengers to get out and push instead of bouncing as I should have done up the steep hill called Brabyns Brow.
JM: Let’s go on with your time with the Royal Air Force. Do you remember where you went to enrol and what happened to you once you joined?
PB: I went to Manchester to enrol, was immediately accepted, I was fit and well and very thrilled about going into the Air Force.
JM: And where did you receive your initial training?
PB: Cambridge University.
JM: Was it?
PB: Would you believe that? Wasn’t I lucky? In St John’s College, Cambridge, which is a very famous college
JM: It is.
PB: And had a very famous choir.
JM: It has.
PB: And I was there in the ancient buildings on the river Cam.
JM: And were you receiving basic military training there or was this aircrew?
PB: Yes, Air Force engineering and stars and sky and [glider]
JM: How long were you there for, do you remember?
PB: Twelve months.
JM: Twelve months.
PB: And I was living in the college building and even got, for some silly reason a friend & I decided we would sleep out in the quadrangle one night and we were, some students were also in the college, they carted us off into a far corner of the quadrangle where we couldn’t easily get back into our quarters and the rain came and the [unclear – could be “sirens”] went all at the same time.
JM: I imagine there were plenty of examinations, weren’t there, as you were being trained?
PB: Oh yes, they were.
JM: And how did you do with those examinations?
PB: Probably still got the books if the truth be known.
JM: Really? Yes?
PB: I’ve certainly got my brother’s books.
JM: Did you pass the examinations well?
PB: Oh yes, I had to do that.
JM: And what happened to you when that course of training was complete? Where did you go next?
PB: Uh, got to think about that. I can’t remember.
JM: Do you remember if you went for flying training?
PB: Not till I got to Cambridge.
JM: Right.
PB: That was my first flying where I went to Marshalls Airport, Cambridge.
JM: Yes, it’s still there.
PB: And eventually, much later still, I became the Manager of the Marshalls Airport.
JM: Right. How did you get on?
PB: [unclear]
JM: Do you remember what you flew first of all?
PB: Tiger Moths.
JM: Tiger Moths. How did you get on flying with Tiger Moths?
PB: I loved them, beautiful little plane. And I was not taught to look out behind me and look for trouble and I was criticised for that but that was the teacher’s fault, he hadn’t taught me to look round.
JM: Do you remember?
PB: There is a chimney there called Joe’s something or other, it a brickwork
JM: Yes.
PB: On the other edge of Cambridge Airport, do you know it?
JM: I don’t know.
PB: Cambridge Airport, Smokey Joe it was called
JM: Right.
PB: And we used that to tell the direction of the wind.
JM: And do you remember how many hours before you went solo?
PB: I didn’t actually succeed in going solo until I got to Canada.
JM: Right.
PB: In a plane very similar to a Chipmunk, it was a Canadian built two seater, [pauses] just like a Chipmunk to look at
JM: Yes.
PB: You wouldn’t even tell the difference but it was in fact a six cylinder engine, whereas the Tiger Moth and the Chipmunk had just four cylinder engines.
JM: So you were sent from Cambridge by sea to Canada to complete your training.
PB: That’s right.
JM: And that was in 1941, was it?
PB: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And what was it like? What were your impressions of Canada, a young man arriving in Canada?
PB: Terribly impressed, was a big thing cause I’d crossed the Atlantic by sea in the submarine chase.
JM: Do you remember the ship that you travelled on?
PB: Yes, the Aquitania.
JM: Right.
PB: Let me think about this, yes. That’s it.
JM: Yes.
PB: I was hoping for the Queen Mary.
JM: [laughs]
PB: Cause it was in use in those days but I didn’t have the luck to go in the Queen Mary, I went in the Aquitania.
JM: Well that was a big ship, was it?
PB: Was a huge liner, built in 1914.
JM: And do you remember whereabouts in Canada you went to?
PB: Yes. First of all, De Winton near, what’s the big city in the far west?
JM: Vancouver?
PB: No, not as far as that.
JM: Calgary?
PB: Calgary.
JM: Right.
PB: De Winton is the airport for Calgary.
JM: So you went to Calgary.
PB: It’s straining my memory trying to remember these answers for you.
JM: Well, you’re doing very well but I mean, I think people will be interested in what it was like to be living in Canada and flying there
PB: Oh.
JM: So, anything you can remember,
PB: I can remember all that.
JM: Please tell us a bit.
PB: We had a first posting was the eastern part of Canada, a place I can’t remember the name of, where my cousin has just gone to live now to look for work in the building industry. I have not told you about that, have I? He’s gone to live there, looking for work as a builder.
JM: But what was it like for you in 1941 being in Canada? What was the food like?
PB: Oh, everything was perfect. It was very cold, I remember that, we had to be careful not to get frozen. And when we eventually got out to the prairies. And then we went from eastern Canada and I’m sorry I can’t name the exact spot, we were there for say a week or ten days and we went by rail right across Canada. And if you want a silly joke, the attendant in the steam train said that “you want to hurry up, if you hurry enough you’ll see Lake Winnipeg”. And we did, we hurried down for breakfast to make sure to being ready to see Lake Winnipeg and we were passing it for a day and a half.
JM: [laughs]
PB: That is a fact.
JM: So, that’s a big lake.
PB: A day and a half by a slow steam train, which was very dirty and dusty. And they had to come round with a brush all day long sweeping up the soot. And we eventually got via intermediate cities across Canada to Vancouver, no, sorry, not Vancouver, Calgary. And there I was for six months learning to fly a little plane, very similar to a Chipmunk.
JM: Yes. So, you were flying single engine aircraft at that stage.
PB: Yes.
JM: And did you want to continue as a fighter pilot on single engine aircraft or?
PB: Yes.
JM: You did.
PB: I did.
JM: And how come you were selected then to fly bombers?
PB: Well, I think they were short of bomber pilots and they had to convert me to a four engine pilot.
JM: Do you remember what, what large airplanes you flew first of all? Once you’d qualified.
PB: Just those. We flew Chipmunks of course, for 190 hours on Chipmunks learning to fly to get our wings.
JM: Yes. You must have been very proud when you got your wings.
PB: Oh, I was. Still got one.
JM: [laughs] Good for you.
PB: I’ve never worn them for [unclear] have I?
JM: No.
PB: I got a pair of Air Force wings which is my pride and joy. Best thing I’ve ever done in my life. And we were graduated in the middle of the Canadian desert, as it were, it was a wild and windy place with cold weather.
JM: I was wondering.
PB: It was the 21st of April, I can remember that too. I always remember the graduation date.
JM: I was wondering if you ever flew the Oxford out there.
PB: Only as a navigation exercise.
JM: Right.
PB: Just once or twice.
JM: Yes.
PB: Navigation with about three of us on board, taking turns to navigate it.
JM: Yeah.
PB: Yes.
JM: And how did you find navigation? Was that a skill you could master?
PB: Oh yeah. I was qualified as a navigator.
JM: Right.
PB: I got a certificate to say so.
JM: Did you do observation of the stars as part of your navigation?
PB: Yes, all that lot. And I frightened one of my instructors by doing a violent evasive action when what I was avoiding was Saturn.
JM: [laughs]
PB: This is a fact, it frightened me to death. I still dived out of the route I was supposed to be taking, when doing some low flying over the Bow River in Calgary area.
JM: Did you meet the Canadian people very much? Did you go to their homes?
PB: Yes, one or two were very good to us and kind and we got friends with the family, doctors and such like. And we even were allowed to drive their cars and we got petrol for them. They had English cars with American tyres on them that were below standard, they were some wartime grade of tyres they were allowed to use in wartime. And we had a “meatless Tuesday”, I’ve never forgotten, “meatless Tuesday”, as a feature of Canadian life.
JM: A number of airmen who trained there and came back to Britain remarked as how they’d grown when they were living in America and Canada and eating all the steaks and the fine food that wasn’t available in Britain. Do you have that sort of?
PB: No, I don’t recall that at all. Just had good food I know
JM: And exercise.
PB: Very satisfactory.
JM: Yeah. Where did you go when you were off duty?
PB: To the local cinema [laughs]. That’s all.
JM: Did you have dances or it was just the cinema?
PB: Oh yes, we had dances and invited the local villagers from another, yeah, the next aerodrome I went to after De Winton was another one which I have forgotten the name of, if you could switch off for a minute I could.
JM: Now, Phillip, I gather you have a story about a motorbike tyre.
PB: Well, I was running an Ariel Square Four motorbike by then and I’d graduated from the 1929 Raleigh 250 to a 1939 Ariel Square Four and it needed a tyre and I bought a tyre in Stockport, my local town. But it proved to have a fault, it was a crack in the side of the tyre or something undesirable, so I took it out to Italy because I knew they put up with any tyres they were short of anything at all that goes on their cars and motorbikes. They didn’t realise it was a tyre of an undesirable size, unsuitable for a Fiat or any other sort of small car. But they gladly gave me quite a lot of money for it and put it under the seat of the Lancaster [laughs], carried it to Italy and disposed of it there for a good price.
JM: [laughs]
PB: Was quite amazed. And what’s the other story?
JM: The other story is about the picture at the reunion at North Killingholme for Operation Manna and.
PB: Well, I can’t remember a reunion, there’s something that-
US: Each year the reunion that the Dutch come to [unclear]
PB: They come and join in our parties and the prayers at the memorial, there is a beautiful memorial being built at North Killingholme [sighs] probably before the end of this talk we shall remember where I was trained for the Lancaster, I’m sorry I can’t think of it.
JM: It’ll come to you. I’m interested to hear about the reunion and the story of the painting of the Lancaster. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
PB: I’ve got a print of it, that’s all, just a print of the Lancaster with a title on it, forgotten what the title is, it’s gone, I’m sorry.
JM: Now, Phillip, we are looking at a lovely copy of a painting of Lancasters flying over Holland dropping food. Can you tell us a little bit more about the story of this painting?
PB: Not of this painting, I’m sorry. Because I don’t remember ever seeing a windmill in Holland.
JM: That might be a bit of artist license, mind you.
PB: I think they substituted that. But it’s a lovely painting, isn’t it? These are the bankings around the water, I think. Here, drainage areas, but I can’t add anything to that except there are three, five Lancasters, I don’t remember seeing it, can I look at the other side of it for a minute? I don’t know why I wasn’t aware of this. There’s the Phantom of the Ruhr.
JM: Yes, there is another painting here showing the Phantom, the Lancaster PA474.
PB: I got a print of this.
JM: Yes. Wearing the colours of the Phantom of the Ruhr 550 Squadron aircraft.
PB: I’ve got a print of that one but that one is new to me.
JM: Philip, at the top of this print of the Lancaster there are a number of signatures. Do you see these here?
PB: Can I look? Cause I may have signed this, Jack Harris, who is a well-known organiser of the meetings.
US: He’s the other pilot.
PB: Can you see any other names? Can I bring it nearer to you? There I am. [unclear]
JM: [unclear].
PB: It’s very indistinct. Yes, I’m there. How did you get this? Cause I haven’t got one with my signature on it. Do you notice we have aerials spreading from the cockpit to the tops of the rudders?
JM: Yes.
PB: Spitfires had a rather similar arrangement with aerials trailing to the top of the rudder.
US: I think a couple of these chaps are now dead.
PB: I wouldn’t be surprised, Jack Harris was the organiser of our meetings at North Killingholme.
JM: Who is that, Philip, can you read that one?
PB: Let me try and see that. It’s not clear in my sight at all.
JM: Ok.
PB: He’s the navigator.
JM: It doesn’t matter-
PB: Chaz somebody. I might be able to recognise his name if time comes. By the way, I continued flying right up to the Squadron being closed down in the Royal Auxiliary Air Force.
JM: I was going to ask you about that.
PB: I will come to that later if you like.
JM: Well, please tell us now while it’s in your mind.
PB: Alright, well, I went and joined the Royal Auxiliary Air Force while I was earning my living in Manchester and working as an engineer and representative and I [pauses] what did I do?
JM: What was it like in the Royal Auxiliary Air Force?
PB: Wonderful, a real life and the CO used to organise motor rallies.
JM: Did you fly with the Royal Auxiliary Air Force?
PB: Oh yes.
JM: What did you fly?
PB: Meteor jets.
JM: Did you?
PB: Phew
JM: So you were a jet pilot as well as a Lancaster pilot.
PB: Yes, that was the big thing in my life. Every weekend I was zooming about in Meteor jets twin engine, at all levels and in all kinds of formation aerobatic and I survived it, two, three of my friends were killed.
JM: Very sad.
PB: Three of them,
JM: Yes.
PB: For various reasons. One who I’d just taken home on leave and he was killed the next weekend.
JM: And I believe you also had time with the Air Training Corps, I believe you were an officer with the Air Training Corps, will you tell us about that?
PB: Yes, I’ve been a civilian and
JM: Civilian.
PB: Everything in the committee that you can be,
JM: Yeah.
PB: All the small positions right, leading right up to the top position as the manager, civilian manager of the Air Training Corps.
JM: So I expect you flew with them.
PB: Two or three different squadrons in Manchester and Stockport area, so.
JM: I expect you must have flown an aircraft in the ATC.
PB: Yes, to this day I am still the Superintendent of an Air Training Corps squadron.
JM: Right.
PB: Still active although I’m immobilised as you will have noticed, I still do that work.
JM: When you look back now from where you are in your life now to your wartime experiences, what feelings do you have? What did it do for you?
PB: Well, it’s a long distant past now, it’s just the past and it’s gone by, that’s how I feel about it. The happiest days were at Cambridge, there’s no doubt about that, but I also continued in Cambridge as Manager of Marshalls Airport, on another job for the Air Force.
JM: Yes, yes. So when you left the Air Force, what year was it you left, do you remember?
PB: No, I couldn’t recall
JM: No, no. But you
PB: I’m sorry.
JM: Your life after leaving the airport was very much involved with engineering?
PB: I was a chief sales manager of the Marine Division of Mirrlees, Bickerton & Day and National Gas & Oil Engine Company which were associated with each other, they were related, two factories eight miles apart.
JM: And you were telling me that you had a job as a journalist working on a magazine to do with steam trains.
PB: Yeah. That’s right.
JM: Tell us about that, would you?
PB: Well, I, the publisher was, the name of the publisher, has just escaped me, who was right near the, [pauses] there was a famous cathedral.
JM: Here in Manchester or? No, in London?
PB: No, in London. Can you name a cathedral?
JM: St [unclear]
PB: A famous cathedral?
JM: Saint Paul’s Cathedral?
PB: No, no, further south than that.
JM: Uhm, Southwark Cathedral?
PB: No.
JM: Westminster?
PB: Westminster Cathedral.
JM: Right.
PB: We were just outside the doors of that.
JM: Were you? Yeah. And you were producing.
PB: I was writing and checking and working with them and I learnt the art of editing a railway gazette and writing nearly the whole of the articles sometimes, the whole of the magazine was my responsibility. I even went to the publishers, which was Odhams Press, to put it to bed as they call it.
JM: So, your whole life really had a theme of engineering in it from when you left school, through the flying and in your life after that, your working life after that was, engineering was a common thread, wasn’t it?
PB: Yes, absolutely. And I, huge engines in, were as tall as this room, massive marine engines
JM: yeah.
PB: And I’m very proud of one or two jobs I had to do. One was this City of Victoria, a huge passenger liner with four engines sailing from Vancouver to Victoria Island across the water
JM: Yes.
PB: Do you know that area at all?
JM: I’ve been there once, yeah. But I wanted to ask you about your, you told me that you had kept in touch with your crew members.
PB: Yeah.
JM: I gather you were quite involved with the veterans, the members of 550 Squadron.
PB: Oh yes, yes. Still go.
JM: Are there many left now?
PB: There’s dozens, but only a few go.
JM: Right.
PB: Cause a lot of ground staff go.
JM: Did you have much to do with the ground engineers when you were on the squadron?
PB: No, nothing.
JM: You just kept yourselves as a crew flying.
PB: We were flyers.
JM: Yeah.
PB: And we had, one of the nicest thing was one Sunday, I was minding my own business with my Ariel Square Four tucked away in safekeeping while I was overhauling the cylinder head, I was always working on these motorbikes, as well as using them to come to Stockport at the weekends and the Flight Commander arrived in my hut right across the fields from church parade where he had been. You know the church we go to? Well, I found myself sitting close to the Wing Commanders and people in charge of the squadron and one of them suddenly turned up at my, in my Nissen hut, and asked to see my Ariel Square Four, well, I think, get out of bed and take him out to the Gents toilet where I kept it [laughs] across a muddy field and he was in his best outfit, cause the church parade was medals, in all his fancy regalia in uniform and his flat hat on, a top man in the squadron, not the Commanding Officer but one of the very, very senior flight commanders. I used to fly in the RAFVR. RAFVR
JM: Yes.
PB: After the war, after my full-time service. Oh, I stayed on with the Air Force because I loved it and it meant everything to me. So what, did I say I’d done?
JM: In the African desert.
PB: I had a job of repairing the engine of a York, which is identical to the engine of a Lancaster by the way, but the wings are higher up the body, they’re down here in a Lancaster and they’re up there on a York and I had to be on the scaffolding doing the repairs myself cause I was qualified to do that sort of thing and repair the fuel feed pump, something that had to be changed and everyone else was having the afternoon in bed on a very, very hot sunny afternoon and I was working on the scaffolding on the aircraft, which was a terrific, terrific privilege to me to be allowed to tinker with the engine on a York aircraft. I’d never tinkered with one before by the way.
JM: And you were successful.
PB: Oh yes, it flew away to Singapore. And I should have been going with it but this delayed my departure so that I wouldn’t have been back in England in time to report back to work. So therefore I had to get off this York and then get me baggage and rubbish and go back with another plane back to England and guess what I came back in? A Sunderland flying boat.
JM: Tell us about that.
PB: That was a wonderful experience to me. This beautiful Sunderland flying boat was gently resting on the waves at Valletta harbour and they took me on board to give me a lift home and said, would I like to fly it? And apart from the act of take-off and the landing, I did all the flying all the way back to England.
JM: Was it an easy aeroplane to fly?
PB: Beautiful, amazing experience and something I’ve always remembered. And the crew went to bed in the back of the plane. Honestly.
JM: Oh yes, a big aeroplane.
PB: With little round windows all way along the side. And I’ve since met an Air Training Corps officer, very senior one called Cross, who was in charge of the whole of the Air Training Corps, and he said, his father was an Imperial Airways pilot that what set him up as a pilot in the first place. So he knew what I was talking about with regards to flying a Sunderland, huge plane but beautiful.
JM: And this would have been presumably in the late 1940s?
PB: They did the take off and the landing by the way, I didn’t do that but we found out where we were, we got lost over France cause we weren’t expecting to be very precise with our navigation over France. I’d done numerous jet’s trooping between England and Italy, England, Italy, England, Italy, Italy, England, from Milano to this aerodrome that I couldn’t name in Southampton area, I’m sorry I can’t remember the name of it, it’s a very well known, it’s where they fly American transport planes to this day.
JM: Well, we’ll come back to that. Are there any other stories that are in your mind from your RAF time either during the war or after that you’d like to tell us?
PB: Certain funny ones. One in particular was when I was driving back from Grimsby on a motorbike and only a 350 and we found an Australian crew of a Morris Minor, now I don’t mean the modern Morris Minor, I mean the wartime Morris Minor which is a very square [unclear] sort of, very sluggish sort of aeroplane, eh, car I mean sorry, and they’d broken down by the roadside so I offered to tow them back to the aerodrome, they were members of my crew. And we got going you know, slowly gathering speed up a very gradual incline up to the aerodrome about five miles and they had about five people in this tiny little car and they had to get out on the running boards to accommodate them all, including my crew member as well, my navigator in this case or my, uhm, not the bomb aimer, yes, it was the bomb aimer, a man whose name I could tell you later on, he may still be alive too. Uhm, he was an expert on Robbie Burns, and that was, he was, he loved reciting to me, taught me all about Robbie Burns, he was my bomb aimer and we carried on until I felt the back of the motor bike was squirming like this, and I looked round and it was going from curb to curb [laughs] we got up such speed and although it was only a 350 motorbike with all these Australian crew plus my bomb aimer hanging on the running boards not in it but on it, we got out of control so I had to slow down and I got them back to the aerodrome.
JM: It’s a story of young men enjoying themselves for the moment.
PB: Well, they’ve been out enjoying themselves in Grimsby and, or some pub on the way to Grimsby. I had the great joy of escorting them back on the end of a rope from a motorbike. It must have been their rope by the way.
JM: You wouldn’t have one of those on your bike, would you?
PB: I wouldn’t have had a rope on it, no. But this was only a little 350 Triumph. A powerful one by the way. Before I graduated onto an Ariel Square Four.
JM: Are there any other stories that you’d like to tell us? About your wartime service, your flying time?
PB: Well, only that we were chased by Spitfires for practice for them, that was quite an interesting experience.
JM: Tell us about that, please.
PB: Well, I just took photographs of the Spitfires that were honing in on us, homing in on us, to take photos I suppose.
JM: I think that was called fighter affiliation.
PB: That’s right, that’s exactly what it was called.
JM: And that was giving them a chance to practice intercepting and you a chance to practice evading.
PB: That’s right. And they were probably from an aerodrome which I subsequently flew at myself on Spitfires and the name’s escaped me just at the moment, uhm, [pauses] sorry, the name’s gone, it’ll come back, cause I used to be there for months after my demob, well, towards my demob and they were a nice crowd till the Flight Commander was killed while I was there.
JM: In a flying accident?
PB: Yes, he made a mistake doing a roll over the runway and just dived straight into the ground and he had just given me leave, was very sad about that. The name of the aerodrome I shall easily find in my memory because of having difficulty with remembering it in the past. I’m sorry it’s gone. You want to switch off while I’m thinking that name? I will do in a minute. I want to tell to them ‘cos it’s so funny.
JM: Tell us the story then.
PB: Well, I’ll tell you about Lyneham being a landing point back in the United Kingdom near Southampton and they now have American transport planes landing there.
JM: And this was when you were bringing the prisoners of war home.
PB: Troops, not prisoners.
JM: Well, ex-prisoners of war.
PB: Yes. Or servicemen who couldn’t wait for a boat.
JM: Ok. Oh, I see, so they were any servicemen.
PB: Not just prisoners.
JM: Right.
PB: A story about life on North Killingholme aerodrome, was near Grimsby, we had a Warrant Officer called Warrant Officer Yardley and he stopped my navigator and said to him, Warrant Officer, well, forgotten his surname at the minute, “what are you doing out on your motorbike without your hat on”? Which is how he expressed himself, he was a very brusque Warrant Officer in charge of the discipline on the Air Force bomber station, “what are you doing without, your, riding your motorbike without your hat on”? And “Warrant Officer” the man at fault said, “but Sir”, very polite to this Warrant Officer cause he was very firm, “you can’t ride a motorbike in a strong wind”. Forget exactly how he expressed it, “you can’t” and the Warrant Officer looked round at the sky and said, “but there ain’t no wind today” [laughs]. It was a calm day that particular day.
JM: Was a calm day.
PB: But he still had to wear his hat and of course he’d generated a certain amount of that wind himself.
JM: yeah.
PB: I had a nasty smash on that same motorbike and finished up in hospital for a week.
JM: Oh dear.
PB: When I should have been doing some bombing runs.
JM: Philip, you’ve told us many lovely stories, you’ve really described the life of a young man here in England and in Canada and on operations at the end of the war. Thank you very much for your interview. It’s very important, thank you.
PB: It’s been a pleasure- And I’ll tell you the name of.
JM: Just as an afterthought, you’ve told us that you were commissioned as a Flight Lieutenant and I’m going to conclude this interview by thanking Flight Lieutenant Blackham for his interview. Thank you very much.
PB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ABlackhamCP161023
Title
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Interview with Charles Philip Blackham
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:46:52 audio recording
Creator
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Julian Maslin
Date
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2016-10-23
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Blackham became an apprentice engineer at Diesel engine company Mirrlees, Bickerton & Day, of which he became a sales manager post war. He served in the Home Guard becoming a driver, then he enrolled in summer 1940 with initial training at Cambridge University, St John’s College, for engineering. After that he went to Marshalls Airport, Cambridge for flying training. Eventually he became a flight engineer at Barry, South Wales.
In 1941 Charles was posted to Canada to complete training at RAF De Winton, learning to fly a Chipmunk and then converted to four engine aircraft: 'I got a pair of Air Force wings which is my pride and joy. Best thing I’ve ever done in my life'. Canada was described as being nice, vast, and cold, inhabited by friendly people, with plenty of fine food that wasn’t available in Britain. Very few details are given about wartime service. After the end of war, he went on to serve in the Royal Auxiliary Air Force as an engineer and representative of Meteor jets, which he also flown. Charles also became an Air Training Corps superintendent. Describes his involvement in one of the 550 Squadron reunions at RAF North Killingholme where they discussed Operation Manna. Talks about PA474 Phantom, a 550 Squadron aircraft.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cambridge
Canada
Alberta--Calgary
Alberta--De Winton
Alberta
Temporal Coverage
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1941
Contributor
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Jean Massie
550 Squadron
aircrew
civil defence
flight engineer
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
Meteor
military ethos
military living conditions
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
pilot
RAF North Killingholme
recruitment
Sunderland
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1289/17295/PAlexanderPM1901.1.jpg
81943cc00313a839bac4561780732d65
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1289/17295/AAlexanderPM190524.1.mp3
2b1d905d7de3c337bf17dc5edeee0137
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Alexander, Pauline
Pauline Maie Alexander
P M Alexander
Pauline Maie Kipling
P M Kipling
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Pauline Alexander (b. 1923) who served as Women’s Auxiliary Air Force member. This collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Alexander, PM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodson and I am interviewing Pauline Alexander for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Pauline’s home and it is the 24th of May 2019. Thank you, Pauline for agreeing to talk to me today. Pauline, can you tell me your date of birth and where you were born?
PA: 9.12.23. I was born in Kensington, christened in St Pancras. And I only lived there for a few months before we moved to Leaden Roding in Essex, a little village owing to mum’s health. We lived there for five years and then moved to Chelmsford.
JH: And how many family were with you at that time? What —
PA: Well, all my brothers. I was the youngest of all of them. And we moved to Chelmsford, and my brother Bernard worked at, after we left, after he left school he worked at Marconi’s at Baddow. My brother Guy was a printer. My brother Bob joined the Air Force as a boy entrant armourer, and my brother Peter went in to the, my dad’s business.
JH: Which was, what was that?
PA: Surgical instrument making and repairing. That was in London so he travelled up to town every day. They travelled up to town every day. But as far as childhood was concerned we had a wonderful childhood. We all got on very well together.
JH: Did they spoil you being the baby?
PA: I was always told I was spoiled. And even when I said I wanted to join the WAAF, my dad didn’t want me to go, but mum said, but my mum said, ‘It will do her the world of good. She’s getting too spoiled.’
JH: And where did you go to school then? I know you had moves.
PA: I went to Kings. I went to the village school in Leaden Roding for a few months when I was four, but from there we went to Kings Road School in Chelmsford which was a very good school.
JH: And all the family —
PA: I wasn’t, I wasn’t too keen on schooling I must admit. But —
JH: You did it [laughs]
PA: I did it [laughs] along with everybody else. My brothers were the brainy ones.
JH: Were they?
PA: Bernard was at Baddow Research which was, they were known as the boffins but as it said in the book he, he volunteered in, for the Air Force on a five year stint which was —
JH: What year was that?
PA: 1938, when, when the scare was. And that’s when Peter volunteered for the, and Guy both volunteered for the Territorials. Peter had to get permission to volunteer because he wasn’t quite old enough to go then. And of course, when war was declared they naturally had to go. I mean, Bernard was in a Reserved Occupation. Baddow Research.
JH: Yeah.
PA: But these things happen.
JH: Did you actually go to work from school? Or —
PA: I didn’t.
JH: No.
PA: I stayed at home, and I used to do the shopping and everything, but then for the 1938 Essex Show I helped in the office there just sending out all the tickets for, you know the applications for to show. And then when that finished Miss Cotting, an accountant who lived opposite us in Chelmsford at the time, she offered me a job there. So it was from there that I went into the WAAF when it, it was either joining the Forces or going in the factory and I thought —
JH: So that was what attracted you to, to going into the WAAF.
PA: Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah. And what age were you?
PA: Well, I was seventeen and a half when I volunteered. Eighteen when I, near enough when I went. Yes.
JH: And where was that based at?
PA: When I first went I had to report to Romford recruitment there and then we were sent to Gloucester to get kitted out and everything. From there we went to Morecambe for a month’s training on the front, and we, we always assembled in what used to be Woolworths there then. Woolworths had moved out from their building and it was taken over by the RAF recruitment, and we did all our square bashing and everything there for a month. And then I was posted to Waddington.
JH: What year would that be then by the time you —
PA: 1942, and I was in flying, flying control for a short while but that was very harrowing booking the aircraft in and out. And I worked with two civilian people doing that. They’d obviously been there since before the war and they were retained. And then I, from there I went to the WAAF admin office in the WAAF headquarters, where I was billeted anyway and I had an accident with my leg. The MPs came one night to say that there was a light showing from one of the bedrooms and went, we went outside to see which room it was and he’d parked his bicycle in front of the thing and I caught my leg on the, his hubcap on his bike and I was in sick bay for a month. I had a haematoma. There’s the scar there and another one down there.
JH: Gosh.
PA: And that wasn’t operated on for a week so I had a black leg. That was —
JH: Serious, wasn’t it?
PA: It was, and we had an awful job with it because the MO came to see me after a week and he said, ‘Have you eaten? Had your tea?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘I’ll be back in an hour and —’ he said, ‘I’ll operate.’ And we used to have to press like that, and we had the kidney bowl and they used to, oh blood it was all congealed.
JH: Gosh.
PA: And I came out of sick bay and I was on a month’s sick leave for that.
JH: Where did you, where did you go? Did you go home?
PA: Went home. Yes. But I had to report to the Chelmsford and Essex Hospital every few days for dressings and that. And then when I went back to camp I was moved to Skellingthorpe. And —
JH: What duties? What duties did you have?
PA: I was only clerical duties. But there the office I worked in was doing the Committee of Adjustments for the aircrews that were lost, and that was a bit of an eye opener, and that ended up in a court martial for one of the [pause] they were, they were, didn’t send all the personal possessions back that should have gone. And that ended up in a court martial there for one of them but he wasn’t the real culprit. As usual one takes the can for somebody a bit [pause] And that, that combination I had a terrible argument with one of them because they were talking about it one day, you know. They used to hive off the stuff, and I would say something about you know the parents and that. They said, ‘What are you worried about?’ And I said, ‘Well, I happen to have lost a brother. Aircrew.’ I said, ‘And I know the rubbish my mother was sent.’
JH: Right. Which brother was that?
PA: That was from my brother, Bernard.
JH: Bernard.
PA: He’d only just had his twenty first birthday. Birthday. And I mean naturally you had some very nice presents but, ‘Oh, he must have taken them on ops with him.’ So, you know.
JH: You had experience then really.
PA: Yes, and but you live and learn these things. It was all part of parcel of Service life.
JH: Did you have a lot of friends, you know amongst your colleagues, actual close friends or —
PA: I’ve never made real close friends. We were a close knit family, and I suppose I played, I played cricket, football and everything, always with the boys. I was with the boys. They always took care of me so, and I remember one night I had been to night school for shorthand typing and I was on my way home. It was around about 8 o’clock and I was walking along Duke Street, and my brother and his friends were coming the other way. He said, ‘What are you doing out this time of night?’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve just been —’ He said, ‘Home,’ he said, ‘And I shall ask mum what time you got home.’ [laughs]
JH: Very protective.
PA: They were. Very protective. I couldn’t have wished for better brothers.
JH: And what was it like —
PA: And I’ve never, I still remember them as they were.
JH: And when you had your leave at Chelmsford or your sick leave and that. What was it like living there at that time because that was wartime wasn’t it?
PA: Quite harrowing.
JH: Yeah.
PA: With all the bombing. Not necessarily Chelmsford but all around Chelmsford.
JH: Did you have any near misses near you or —
PA: Oh yes. We had the landmines at the bottom of the Avenues which I suppose about, well less than a mile away from, much less and they were aiming for Hoffmann’s really which was ball bearing factory. And the ceilings came down. Windows out. Fortunately, we had a very sturdy table. A big table and we used to sit under the table. But after that my dad got an Anderson, a shelter. Indoor shelter so mum could go in the shelter after that.
JH: So you felt safer.
PA: Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah, for everyone.
PA: Well, the trouble was you see dad worked up in London. When he was in London he worried about mum at home. When he was at home he worried about the business in London.
JH: Did the business survive through the war in the end?
PA: Well, whilst my dad was alive, yes.
JH: Yes.
PA: But when he died the business went you see. It was a good, the good will of the business that was more or less, so we lost not only the business but all my brothers as well, my brothers and my dad as well. And that was before National Insurance and everything. So dad hadn’t made a will. Mum wasn’t allowed to touch anything from the business for six months. And then after that she had, she paid in to National Insurance for fourteen years so that she could get a pension when, she lived on her capital for fourteen years. So —
JH: What year did your dad die?
PA: ’43. So we, the family didn’t have a very [pause] my mum and dad didn’t have a very [pause] until war it was heavenly, but [pause] but as my mother said, she was very sardonic, ‘Oh well,’ she says, ‘At least I’ve got all my money back.’ So —
JH: She had to go on didn’t she so —
PA: Yeah. And somebody said to her one day about after the two boys had been killed, you know, ‘Aren’t you bitter about it?’ And she said, ‘What’s the point?’ She said, ‘They were doing exactly the same. Bombing.’ And she said, ‘They were somebody’s son as well.’ You don’t necessarily do it because you want to. It was them or us. [pause] But getting back to Skellingthorpe and Waddington I enjoyed my, if you can call it that [pause] I never went to any of the sergeant’s mess dances or anything. I never, I didn’t drink for a start so, and as I say with the boys, aircrew I didn’t want to get involved. So I never went to any of the sergeant’s mess dances or anything like that so, but we had some very nice music evenings, and our own entertainment, and we did our job what we had to do. That was it.
JH: And how long did you serve?
PA: From ’42 to ’46. I was demobbed in ’46. When I went to Stradishall on a compassionate posting after my brother Peter had been killed I was home for a month then. Yeah. I suppose you could call it stress but in those days they called it a breakdown if you like. And then I had the compassionate posting to Stradishall but to be nearer home but it took me as long as to get from Stradishall to Chelmsford as it did from Lincoln to Chelmsford, because it was from Haverhill to — [pause] Oh, I can’t think of the name now, the other side of Kelvedon. In between Kelvedon and Colchester. It was a little single line so we shuffled backwards and forwards but the most harrowing thing there was there were only two coaches on the trains, and one coach went to Bury St Edmunds, branched off to Bury St Edmunds and the other one went to Haverhill. I got on the wrong coach one night and I ended up in Clare in Suffolk and I had to walk from Clare to Haverhill and from Haverhill to Stradishall and I never passed a soul. Pitch black.
JH: It must have been very scary.
PA: I’d never been so relieved to get back to camp as I was that night.
JH: How many miles do you think it was?
PA: Altogether about ten miles.
JH: That’s a lot on your own, isn’t it?
PA: Yes. Yes. But another thing I can say, the whole time I was in the Forces at aerodromes we never had an air raid. I don’t remember an air raid. Waddington had been bombed before I’d gone there. But I mean there were a lot of scares from aircraft not taking off, you know. The take off was aborted, and they were, the bomb load was, all that sort of thing.
JH: Did you ever feel that you were in real danger?
PA: We didn’t think about it. We just, alright it just took it as well, life.
JH: Gosh.
PA: I can’t say I enjoyed it, my Service life as such. It was an experience which I think Service life does a lot of people a lot of good. They see life from a different angle even though it was wartime.
JH: Were you influenced by your brothers having gone before you?
PA: Yes, definitely.
JH: So, how many brothers did you lose altogether?
PA: Three.
JH: And their names were?
PA: Bernard, Guy and Peter.
JH: You had one brother survived the war.
PA: One brother survived. Yes. And he was the regular, and an armament officer. And there’s a picture of him somewhere sitting on a bomb along with all his mates, all smoking.
JH: And his name was —?
PA: That was Robert.
JH: Robert. So what did you do after you’d got demobbed? What happened to you?
PA: I went to work at Marconi’s. Which was a very reputable firm.
JH: Yes.
PA: And then I met my husband. Well, I knew my husband at school but never any contact in those days. I met him at a RAFA dance. And we met in the March, we were engaged in the May and married in the September.
JH: What year was that then?
PA: ’47.
JH: And what did he do? What was his job?
PA: Well, he was a regular.
JH: Of course, yeah.
PA: He was a wireless mechanic, and do all that sort of thing and when he came out of the Air Force he worked at Marconi’s, and then I was expecting Peter and I left and he joined near enough. And —
JH: So how many children did you have?
PA: Peter and Maureen.
JH: Peter and Maureen.
[pause]
PA: She, by the way isn’t my cat.
JH: Oh, right [laughs] No?
PA: She’s Angela’s cat. Not mine [laughs]
[recording paused]
PA: That was Kate Kipling and she was, worked in munitions at Perivale in the First World War. And the inspectors came around one day and tapped one of the bombs they were, and it exploded and she was seriously wounded. She had scars all down, shrapnel scars all down her back and down her arms, in her head. And when she had no end of operations for the removal of shrapnel, and when she started to go deaf she went for a hearing test and he said, ‘We’re getting an awful lot of interference. A lot of rattling going on.’ And mum said, ‘Yeah. Well, that would be shrapnel, still in her —’
JH: And what age was that? How old would she have been then do you think?
PA: Well, between her forties and fifties. Well, thirties and fifties. Yeah.
JH: So did she work after the war then?
PA: No.
JH: No.
PA: No. She married my dad and had five children.
JH: Course.
PA: All under the age of six.
JH: But by the end of the war there was yourself, one brother and your mum left.
PA: Yes. Yeah. Start the war with seven and end up with three.
JH: Was your mum bitter about the war then with —
PA: Over some things. She was bitter when the Memorial Window was inaugurated at the church in [Broomfield], which is that little church up there where my brother Peter is buried. She went to the inauguration and she was shown her seat at the back. All the dignatories at the front of course, and she wasn’t even acknowledged and she was bitter about that which is quite understandable.
JH: Yes.
PA: But then that’s the way things worked. The mayor and everybody else was more important.
JH: She was obviously very proud of her sons wasn’t she, you know.
PA: Very proud. She was a very proud person and my brother Guy was married for a few months before he was killed and his wife remarried, but she always said and her cousin also always said, ‘Your mother was a lady.’ She was very, she was very upright. Very, what my mother said was law as far as we were all concerned. She could do, you know her word was [pause] when during the war, she worked, she was a member of the Red Cross and also she used to work for charities. Different, you know whist drives and all that sort of thing. She was a member of the Women’s Institute and, as well and my dad was an air raid warden when he was at home. And there again, think what people may my dad, he had a coronary thrombosis. He played golf in the afternoon with his doctor and he was taken ill during the evening and Doctor Henry came and he gave him some tablets, a tablet and he said to mum, ‘He should make it through ‘til the morning.’ But he didn’t. He died during the night and because there was an air raid, an air raid on my mum she washed him down, and then went downstairs and knitted furiously until it was light, and the air raid was over and she went over to the warden’s post and told them what had happened. That was my mother.
JH: Very strong.
PA: Very strong.
JH: And how old was she when she died then?
PA: When she died, a hundred and five.
JH: Did she marry again?
PA: No. No. My father thought the world of her, and so did we all as children. And when we lived in Primrose Hill we lived next door to a Mr and Mrs Young, and Mrs Young said when she heard that five children were moving in next door she said she had reservations. But when we moved out she said she could never have wished for better neighbours. I used to go shopping for her on a Saturday morning. Only across the road to the little shop opposite that, there used to be little shops in people’s front rooms in those days and I, I used to get her a few bits of shopping for sixpence.
JH: It’s amazing what you could get for sixpence in those days.
PA: Exactly. That was a lot of money. My mum, she always boasted with her first wage packet when she started work, she went to Goodwood Races with her sister Nell and she said, ‘We won sixpence.’ In those days. That was before the First World War. They won sixpence.
JH: A lot of money.
PA: A lot of money. Yes. Because they lived at, she was born in Midhurst in Sussex and of course that’s not too far from Goodwood Racecourse [pause] Yes. We had a wonderful childhood until the war.
JH: And what did you do, you know after the war and your family life with your children growing up?
PA: Well, Peter and Maureen always say they had a wonderful, the freedom they had, like we did. We used to have a bottle of drink and some sandwiches and just disappear for the day down the park or —
JH: Was that Chelmsford area at that time?
PA: That was at Chelmsford. Yes. They were born in Chelmsford. Maureen never, didn’t leave Chelmsford until she met her first husband and she moved to Milton Keynes, and she’s still in Milton Keynes. Different houses but [laughs] different husband.
JH: Did you have any hobbies through you know your married life that you both enjoyed? Did you?
PA: Not really. Hubby, he was a Mason eventually for quite a number of years. And we had a big garden like this, and —
JH: You enjoyed your garden.
PA: We enjoyed the garden. Yes. We enjoyed going out on our bikes and stopping for a drink, and Peter used to be on the little saddle on the front of, on the —
JH: On the front of the bike.
PA: On the bar.
JH: Yeah.
PA: At the front of the bike. And Maureen used to be on a little carrier on the back of my bike until we could afford a car. And if we couldn’t afford anything in those days we didn’t have it. Not like today.
JH: What was your first car? Do you remember now?
PA: An old Morris. Yeah. But my, my mum and dad had a car anyway. That was a Rover. And my brother Guy, oh Bernard had it. We took, drove the car up to Dishforth to my brother Bernard’s unit. He had the car up there during the war because we couldn’t get the petrol for it anyway [beeping noise] Excuse me, that’s my hearing aid squeaking. And then when he went missing one of the aircrew from, lived at Ingatestone which wasn’t very far from, about five miles from Chelmsford. He brought the car back for us. And then when Guy was stationed at Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire he had the car there. And when I was at Wadding ton he came up to visit me.
JH: Did you drive at all?
PA: No.
JH: No. Never?
PA: No.
JH: No.
PA: No. I mean all my brothers drove. I would have learned to drive but, and after we bought a car for how we drove a car he said about driving. He said, ‘What’s the point?’ He said, ‘I can drive you wherever you want.’ And then Maureen and Peter both learned to drive. No need. So I never learned. Angie, my daughter in law doesn’t drive. She lived in London. Not far from West Ham football. Well, opposite West Ham Football Stadium, and they never had a car. Peter did persuade her to start learning to drive when he worked away for just over a week. She was having two or three hour lessons at a time. You know, one of those quick things. But as soon as he went home she gave it up. She didn’t like driving.
JH: So have you all been —
PA: She’s terrified of the motorways.
JH: Oh, right. So —
PA: So she would never have driven on motorways anyhow.
JH: So has the family been football supporters over the years?
PA: Oh, West Ham. And next door but one neighbour —
JH: Yeah.
PA: In Chelmsford to hubby and I, their uncle he came from London and he was a West Ham supporter and he took Peter when he was ten up to watch West Ham and we’ve been West Ham supporters ever since. Hence even Ross, West Ham mug even now. But the irony of it all was that my husband’s cousin, his daughter married Geoff Hurst. My husband went to their wedding naturally, so, and of course he was West Ham.
JH: Big, big football connection going through the family.
PA: There is. My brother in law, John he played for Chelmsford City for fifteen years. They were a great footballing family as well. Played football. And as I say with four brothers I was brought up with football, cricket. Guy was more in to tennis with Peggy his wife. They played a lot of tennis but, but you know it was all very sporty.
[recording paused]
JH: Ok. So, we were just going to talk about when you actually started work again.
PA: Yes.
JH: After you had your children.
PA: I joined Marconi’s again for the second time, and I worked in the registry there, and I became deputy boss and we, we used to deal with every, all aspects of the division. We vetted all the post that came in for orders and enquiries and everything, and I used to, payday all the payslips for the division came up to the registry, and I used to sort them all out into rooms and we delivered all the pay slips to everybody. They were pleased to see us that day [laughs] And also all the requirements, letter-heading and all the, for the typists for —
JH: The stationery was it, the stationery cupboard.
PA: The stationery.
JH: Yeah.
PA: Used to order the stationery for the whole division. Get all the personal cards printed for all the sales and engineers on their trips abroad and everything. So it was a wide scope of things, and when I, when I retired apparently my card went around all. I got over a hundred pound when I retired, which I thought was very, very generous of everybody.
JH: Very well thought of.
PA: I did my best. I was very trying at times. I still am, and always will be I expect. But that’s all part and parcel of life. My son, and son in law whenever I was, ‘Are you behaving yourself?’ [laughs] Yeah.
JH: Well, that’s lovely.
PA: Well, when you’ve lived on your own for so many years you are very independent. You have your own ways and means of doing things. It may not be the best way but it’s what you’re used to.
JH: Yeah, ok. Right. Well, I can only really say thank you Pauline for allowing me to record this interview today.
PA: Well, thank you for coming.
JH: It’s a pleasure.
PA: I certainly didn’t expect it.
JH: Well, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you.
PA: Thank you, dear.
[recording paused]
JH: We’re just having further anecdotes from Pauline regarding an episode when she was serving as a WAAF.
PA: Ok. I remember when I was at Waddington and in flying control. One day one of the officers decided to go for a little flip in his Oxford aircraft and he was, he was on the runway waiting to take off and a Lancaster revved up and he completely somersaulted, much to the amusement of everyone in flying control. No harm done. He saw the funny side of it as well.
JH: That’s very good. And you were also saying about your husband. When he was serving he, he actually went in to, up to Scotland didn’t he at some point?
PA: My husband. Yes. He was up at Leuchars but he was with air sea rescue at Lowestoft during, Felixstowe rather during part of his service and that was very harrowing. Going out and rescuing the aircrews that had ditched in the sea.
JH: A lot of losses I presume.
PA: A lot of losses, yes. And he did say they picked up one survivor once and they just had to drop him straight back in the thing. He was cut in half. Terrible injuries some of them. My brother Guy he, all his crew came to his wedding and so of course we knew them quite well. But when Guy came home on, Guy came home on leave once, and when he went back he wrote a letter to his cousin and he said, ‘I’ve been lucky so far.’ And the next night he, he went on ops with another crew and that’s when he didn’t come back. But that’s the way. They, his crew they, they were lovely load of, but within next to no time they’d all gone except one because they all had to split up you see when Guy, Guy’s pilot as well he’d gone as a second pilot with another crew, and he didn’t come back, but he did escape. He wasn’t captured and he did get back to this country but he was a Canadian and they sent him back to Canada.
JH: And what were they flying?
PA: Stirlings. And George, one of Guys original crew, he finished his tour of ops and he went as a trainer and collided in mid-air and was killed. I went to his funeral.
JH: A very sad time.
PA: You know it’s [pause] and they talk about mental sickness these days. They don’t know the meaning of it. Of stress and strain. But then again of course it’s encouraged these days.
JH: Did it affect your husband do you think over the years. Do you think from his experiences —
PA: I don’t think so. He didn’t enjoy India. He was out in India for a while. He didn’t like India and India didn’t like him. He came back with ulcers. But Bob went to Africa. I could have gone to Egypt, but I can’t stand the heat so it wouldn’t have done me any good. I mean you had to volunteer to go, and my mother said, ‘Why ever didn’t you go?’ She said, ‘It would have been a wonderful experience.’ I said, ‘Yes. I know.’ Knowing me I can’t, I just couldn’t have. Guy went to Canada to train and he loved it over there and he said although it’s bitterly cold it’s a different, it’s a dry cold. Not the damp cold over here and he, if he’d have survive he’d have loved to have gone back. But at Stradishall I worked with a Canadian corporal, a girl, a female corporal from, as I say she was Canadian. She got frostbite over here. Damp cold. Completely different to Canada. Yeah. Amazing isn’t it?
[pause]
PA: There were some very happy times, there were some very sad times when I was at Waddington and Skellingthorpe in the Wing Commander Nettleton era, and the Dambusters. All that sort of thing. They were at Scampton, and from Waddington you could see the aircraft all taking off from Scampton as well. It was a wonderful sight, but —
JH: Consequences.
PA: Yes, exactly. I know I was out, my brother Bernard was home on leave once and we were going out to visit, see some friends of mine. This was before I joined up of course. The air raid warning went. You could hear the guns going and the bombs dropping and he said, ‘Hadn’t we better go home?’ I said, ‘Good heavens, no.’ I said, ‘That’s at Romford.’ And, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘And to think I do that.’ He was an observer as they were called in those days and then they became navigators you see. Bernard was an observer, his twin brother was a navigator, but the same thing.
JH: They were very brave, weren’t they?
PA: Hmmn?
JH: They were very brave and strong to keep going back.
PA: Well, to think they did that night after night. How harrowing that must have been. And what would those youngsters of today make of it? But then it’s been encouraged. You mustn’t smack them, they’re not, I know my two have had a few hidings. I’ve had a few hidings and I deserved it and so did they. Maureen when she came out at, she was still at school when I first started work, and when we got home one night she’d put the potatoes on, on full gas and she’d gone swimming. Yes, she didn’t do that again.
JH: Wow.
PA: But that’s what we did.
[pause]
PA: It was nothing for her to have a meal. She was only thirteen but it was nothing for her to have a meal ready for her dad and I when we got home from work.
JH: That’s brilliant.
PA: Oh yes. My dad was useless at sort of odd jobs. Mum did the decorating and that sort of thing and gardening. Mum did the gardening. It hurt my dad’s back, but a round of golf did it the world of good. Mum always had help though. She always had somebody come in a couple of times a week to do the heavy work as it was called, and the sheets and all the boy’s shirts and everything went to the laundry, she didn’t have to do any of that.
JH: Well, that’s you know, that’s very very interesting to hear all these experiences and how life was then and —
PA: Yeah.
JH: It’s, yeah no thank you very much for sharing with us. So it’s —
PA: Well, thank you for coming.
JH: Yeah.
PA: Well, I had such a wonderful reception when I went to Bomber Command. I just couldn’t believe it.
JH: That’s lovely.
PA: Right from the moment, I just happened to have my Veterans badge on my jacket and they said, ‘Oh, you’re a veteran.’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Oh, we’ll have to reimburse you then.’ Well, of course Maureen had paid anyway. But every, they couldn’t have looked after me any better, and you know the walk up to the plinth, don’t you?
JH: Yes.
PA: It started to rain. I was in my in a, pardon me, in a wheelchair but they came running up in the rain with a plastic cape for me to put on and another plastic cover over my legs.
JH: Good.
PA: And also they said, ‘Oh, about the canteen. ‘You have whatever you like. It’s free.’ And then the lady, she said, ‘Oh, can I have a, can I take a photo of you?’ And she took a photograph of Maureen and I in the foyer just before we left.
PA: That’s lovely.
JH: As far as I was concerned preferential treatment I’d had.
PA: I’m glad you had a good experience.
JH: It was a fantastic experience. It was the last thing I expected.
PA: Good. Well, thank you again very much for your time today.
JH: My pleasure.
PA: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Pauline Alexander
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAlexanderPM190524, PAlexanderPM1901
Format
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01:09:41 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
During the war, Pauline's siblings Bernard, Guy, Robert and Peter served in the air force and army, her mother volunteered for the Red Cross, and her father volunteered as an air raid warden. Inspired by her brothers, Alexander joined Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in 1942 and completed clerical duties at RAF Waddington, RAF Skellingthorpe, and RAF Stradishall, before being demobilised in 1946. Although she did not necessarily enjoy her service, she notes that it was a life-shaping experience. Alexander also recounts the harrowing wartime experiences of her family members, including the deaths of her father and three brothers, and how her mother coped with their losses. Finally, she recalls her postwar life including working for the Marconi Company, meeting her husband, and raising their two children.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Essex
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
Language
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eng
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Air Raid Precautions
civil defence
coping mechanism
ground personnel
home front
military discipline
military ethos
military living conditions
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waddington
Red Cross
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/487/8371/PButlerDWJ1602.1.jpg
1c0c36ea5b3b4bc79bf3758d968344d7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/487/8371/AButlerDWJ160623.2.mp3
11e879c4cada4b9163a2cb09c3a2959f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Butler, David
David William Jack Butler DFC
D W J Butler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Butler, DWJ
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader David Butler DFC (b. 1920).
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Butler and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing David Butler today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Butler’s home and it is the 23rd June 2016. Thank you, David, for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Edna Butler, David’s wife. So, David, can you tell me when and where you were born and something of your early years?
DB: I was born in Cambridge, in a place called Cherry Hinton, on the 27th of April 1920 and I lived in Cambridge and went to school in Cambridge, and the local school, and I joined the RAF then [unclear] in later years, on January the 11th 1940, I can remember that quite clear and I did my training in various places and was later posted out, and served in France during the war. And on one night, we got warned the Germans were coming in the end of Reims, where I was stationed, in Reims and we were warned that the Germans were coming in the [unclear], and so we made a very hasty retreat out and went so we couldn’t go north because the bomber, er, the beaches were packed, so we had to go right across to Saint Lazare and we ran out of petrol and we had to walk forty miles to the coast We then got on to a Polish [unclear], wet knees up to our thighs and we got taken to Southampton in a Polish boat, and from then onwards, it was back to RAF stations and that sort of thing until I went on various courses, and I became an instructor at aircrew receiving centre in London and had to go down to Lords and collect sixty cadets [unclear], train them and have fun and games with them and whilst I did their selection boards to become pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, air gunners and that sort of thing and I later became a trainee with aircrew. I volunteered for aircrew because they were getting a little short of aircrew with the amount of losses that they were entertaining, and so I took a six-month, the quickest route [unclear] to an RAF station was as an air gunner, so I took a six-month course as an air gunner and was fortunate in, with another friend we passed top of the course, and we were interviewed by a very senior officer, and in my log book it registered that the very keen and smart cadet [unclear] will be well worth the commission, so I felt very chuffed about that Did my training and then was finally posted on to crew up to an RAF station at 12 Squadron at Wickenby, flying Lancasters, and we did all our training on Lancasters, and from then onwards we did our bombing trips out to various places and I [pause] completed about four or five bombing crews to various places, and if you want to know what places they were my log book will tell you, er, did you want to -
JH: If you’d like to say the ones that there were.
DB: I did a total of [pause] thirty trips but unfortunately, on one occasion they, I was taken to hospital ‘cause, with a very high temperature and er, it was very, I was very close to sort of not completing [pause] -
JH: Right.
DB: And my crew were posted with another chap in my place, who had just come back from leave, and they went off to Nuremburg and the chap came in the following morning to tell me that my crew were missing and they’d all been shot down outside Nuremburg .
JH: Gosh.
DB: So the CO said, now I can either go back and be re-crewed, but if the present crew where the chap was missing is prepared to take you, I said that will be fine, I would much rather continue my flying period, and so I finished off my tour with a new captain and a new crew which was super, and we did thirty trips including ten trips, bombing trips on Berlin.
JH: Really.
DB: Which was a rather lengthy tour, er, trip something seven or eight hours there and back and particularly in the winter, it was ruddy cold [laughs] so, but nevertheless we finally made, we had one or two little unfortunate enterprises of firing at Luftwaffe aircraft which, who dared to come up and see us, getting caught in flak, getting caught in searchlights but eventually we made it, by the grace of God and a good pilot flying the aircraft.
JH: What position were you in the aircraft?
DB: I selected which one and I was the rear gunner, which was well known to be a hot spot!
JH: [laughs].
DB: Having met a load of Luftwaffe pilots some years later, they did say, we always used to try to shoot up the rear gunner first, so I used to say ‘thank you very much’ [laughs] so, but we did finish. I then, I then took a gunnery leader’s course, did some specialised courses and run a lot of other gunners through the course and then I volunteered to do another tour of operations, and I was crewed up with six other crew members and, er, one of whom was a New Zealander, and a top line pilot, and we went to a place called RAF North Creake which was 12 Squadron. My previous squadron was 12 Squadron and this at North Creake was 171 Squadron, so we knew, we used to know that quite well and we managed to survive to the end of the war, another twenty five trips altogether including a number of little incidents involving Luftwaffe aircraft so there we go! So that really is a quick summary of my flying days [laughs].
JH: Okay, and what did you do then, immediately after the war, were you still in the RAF?
DB I stayed, I stayed in the RAF and I made a career of it, and I was fortunate enough to be offered a full time commission and I did so and got posted out to various places, er, to Egypt, I was in Iraq when Gaddafi had his rebellion, and we did have a tank roll up to our RAF El Adem in those days and, er, we got to know the Iraqi captain very well and he would literally sign anything for half a bottle of whisky [laughs].
JH: [laughs].
DB: A great chap, so we went all over and we were, I was allocated a bungalow in Tripoli with my wife and of course she was all stopped out, so she didn’t get out at all so that’s, and I was posted one or two other places, er Aleppo. Oh I was posted to Jordan, I got to know the Jordanese people and we got to, er, we made arrangements to have our, er, the runway lengthened and we had a very nice big, after when it was all over, we had a very, very nice time with a big marquee with the local Arabs, which was all very exciting, and then I got, I was then eventually posted back to England and became a SAR officer.
JH: Where was that at in England? Where were you posted to?
DB: A very good question. Do you know I can’t remember the name of it, it’s down south somewhere, I can’t, oh [pause] can’t remember the name, no sorry, name’s gone, old age has finally -
JH: Is it?
EB: Was it Headley Court?
DB: Head, no, no, I -
EB: Lionel?
DB: Oh, I did a tour at Headley Court which was an RAF medical station, and that was down south [pause] and, er, I was the adjutant there and I got posted all over the place from there, so it was quite a career one way or another.
JH: So when you were posted, you mostly went off on your own, it wasn’t something that your wife could go with you?
DB: No, no, then my wife joined me wherever I got.
JH: She did, right, yes, yes.
DB: And then, that was from 19-, oh, about 1940, 1950, I suddenly reached the age when it was retirement age, so I wondered what it was like to apply for a job and be told ‘you’re not what we’re suited for’ or ‘you’re too old for this’ or ‘you’re too old for that’, so I applied for a job at Girton, my home town, at Girton College [pause]. And, but I thought my family, my father still lived there and I thought it would be rather nice to be, and he was concerned that, concerned also with the local St John’s College as well so I thought it would be rather nice if I could join him in one of the colleges. Anyway I had five interviews by various women, because Girton College was a woman’s college in those days, and the job vacancy was for a steward and a junior bursar, and I applied and much to my surprise, after five interviews, I was offered the post and so I went to, er, and lived a month at the academics. And not being, and not having ever gone to college myself, I was given college status which meant that I had to become a Master, and I finally went to the Senate House in Cambridge and received a Master’s degree, an honorary one [laughs] and I said to the [unclear], do I have to take, my service means in the RAF you have to earn it and pass exam to get there, this I feel a little cheated getting my Master’s degree and I got all the paperwork to go with it and so I was with them for about three or four years and then I got another job with a local firm [pause] to manage the director’s office, which was rather pleasant. And I retired then and took up local work with the British Legion, and did a lot of work with the British Legion in Cambridge, in Histon and was finally elected as their president of British Legion and I’ve been their president since 2008, so I go to all their meetings, I don’t miss a meeting and I find it very honourable to go to all memorials, the meetings where they all have meetings so really, that’s a very brief summary of my career outside the RAF and inside the RAF.
JH: Yes, yes.
DB: There we go [pause], forgot to mention that I was, I transferred from the admin branch in the RAF because they did, the flying ceased and I then went on an admin course, and then I did an admin course for about two or three years and then they ran short of catering officers, and I thought a new career, and so I went on a six-month catering course and started from start to finish to be taught about all things in the RAF about catering, which was a wonderful course, very, very, very, and had the pleasure of meeting so many other caterers and posted to so many other RAF stations as the catering officer and became a staff officer in the catering branch which was very nice to have, so [pause] that’s another part of my RAF career besides flying and er, [pause] -
JH: It was very varied actually wasn’t it, you covered quite, you know, a lot of -
DB: Yes, after my service I had the pleasure of being invited to a German Luftwaffe gathering in Germany, and so I went with twelve other last Lancaster aircrew and went to the Luftwaffe gathering, and had the pleasure of meeting all the chaps that used to fire at us and, er, miss us thank goodness. But they were an incredible bunch of people and I’ve got some, I’ve got a couple of photographs of them here if you should want to have a look at them and show you -
JH: Yes, definitely.
DB: And later on, we invited them to come to Cambridge and we took them all round Cambridge and whilst they were here, I got them to sign my old flying log book and in it [pause] [background noise], there we go, that’s a photograph of all their signatures, all the Luftwaffe pilots that used to fire at us when we was flying over Germany.
JH: That’s fabulous, isn’t it.
DB: Yes, isn’t it.
JH: What a record .
DB: And I don’t know of another log book which has got those names in, unusual. I got very friendly with one of them, Martin Chivers, [then pronounces Chyvers] and he’d only, his log book indicated that he’d only shot down fifty-two of our English bombers, all written down, and he says ‘can I see your log book’, [adopts accent] so I showed him mine, and he said ‘you did fifty-five? how come I missed you!’ [adopts accent], [laughs], I said the simple reason, when we were, I were a target, very near a target, I used to get my pilot to jink which is -
JH: Sway?
DB: And we could see underneath if there was anybody there. ‘Ah’, he says, ‘you were one of those’, I said, ‘why is that’, he said, ‘because if we come across anybody was doing zinking, [adopts accent] we went to somebody who didn’t do that.’ [laughs]
JH: Wow.
DB: So that was very good and we’ve been sending one another Christmas cards, I didn’t get one from him last year so I assume he’s gone, but I got two photographs of him and his big [unclear] was very close to Goebbels, so that was a very interesting little incident, so there we go. All part of a peculiar little career of one’s life. Back on some of our bombing missions, the flying, the Lancaster was a very manoeuvrable aircraft, in an attack or getting out of searchlights, it was very manoeuvrable, and the skipper was able to manoeuvre the aircraft very quickly and get us out of trouble. And on numerous occasions he was able to do this, a very, very good pilot, Adams his name was, Flight Lieutenant Adams, very, very good and on my second tour, we were less with having to go and set up screens of, wireless screens to allow the bomber stream to go through these screens, in order to bomb where we’re going to bomb. And getting those into position was always a very tricky position, and getting caught in searchlights was a very tricky position, and being able to get out, Bill could, our skipper was a New Zealander and was five foot nothing, but he could throw that aircraft about anywhere. It was a very sluggish aircraft, the old Halifax and, er, I remember one being caught in some flak on one occasion, and we had the engine catch on fire and we had to get down very, very low level and fly back to England, and we got back home, with the engine blew up again so we had to find the nearest air place to get in, and by some stroke of luck, Bill said, ‘is Waterbeach down below?’ which is just outside Cambridge. I said ‘oh, home town!’ so we managed to get down and we got, we asked permission to land, we were given permission to land [unclear] and we down the whole length of the runway and tipped up at the end and I was still sitting in the back in the turret so, and I had to get out quickly, and getting out of a rear turret was extremely difficult, and I had to put my hands behind my back, open the doors and literally fall, grab my parachute which was hanging up but I didn’t get the parachute, we didn’t need it fortunately, and fell out backwards and damaged my ankle. And all of the crew thought it was highly amazing and most amusing because I was the only bloke that was injured [laughs], busted me ankle! So there we go, so that’s another little story about the second tour.
JH: And when you were in the Lancasters, were you always a rear gunner?
DB: I was always, I volunteered to do the rear gunner in our new crew and I volunteered to do the rear gunner’s spot on the Lancaster, and I’ve got some photographs I can show you of a rear turret which will give you an idea of what it was like, getting in was difficult. I was, very little room but you could, but knowing every part of a turret was essential, you knew where all the stops were. If you had a stoppage, you knew how to clear it and how to, but you, and that was in the dark, you would never have any lights in the, bit of moonlight if you were lucky, but generally speaking you, I used to get stoppages in, and I had to find the stoppage and knowing where the parts were and guiding me, the turret you would guide it round to the left or to the right by power and hydraulics and it was extremely difficult [unclear] and very cold. My thighs used to get frozen and I used to carry with me a tin of orange juice to drink coming back and it used to get frozen up, so I used to have to tuck it in my flying suit to soft it down a bit, and I never got out of the turret once, I never had to get out in a hurry once so we, so we did thirty trips .
JH: That’s extraordinary, isn’t it.
DB: in the Lancaster, a total of thirty bombing trips and that was bombing over the target, we never once let them go free. We had the bombing, the bomb aimer had a special area where he was told to drop the bombs and this he did, and it was a [pause], flak was always a problem over targets. It used to come up and flak and when we used to get back to the squadron, the mechanic used to come back ‘you’ve got seventeen holes in your body this week’ or ‘you’ve got one’, yeah, but I had one, I had a bit of flak through the side of my turret on one occasion but, er, that smashed the window but that was all right, no problem.
JH: I presume there was great elation when you actually came back, you were very elated when you got back?
DB: Er -
JH: Or quiet?
DB: Not really, we took it very much in our way, our main thing when we got back was going down to the briefing room and having a mug of coffee with a little drop of brandy in it, but nobody supplied the brandy, we had to take that ourselves, but we had a cup of coffee which was very good. On every trip, we had to be interviewed and record what happened on our trips, it was quite a lengthy operation before we were able to go and have breakfast in the, and occasional we used to get an extra egg from the people who didn’t get back and there, we always felt very sad when we knew the people that had been shot down.
JH: I’m sure.
DB: We felt they were missing, and we used to raise our glasses and drink their health and that was it. Some we knew that were made prisoner of war, others were killed, my own crew were all killed and [pause] if I may just add a little story to this [pause], some years after I retired from the RAF, I had a message from a gentleman named Tommy Cass, whose nephew was the air gunner that took my place when I was in hospital, and he says ‘can I come and talk to you’. So we got together and apparently he found out where that aircraft had been shot down in Germany and he went to Germany, and he tracked down the area and the local police force which found it, and they actually found the pilot, the Luftwaffe pilot that had shot the aircraft down, and made a big story of it in the local press. And I have, and he gave me a copy of [sneezes], oh excuse me, [everyone laughs], [sneezes again] and I have actually got in my little side entry here a copy of that report, amazing, so that was a very interesting interview from the chap that was the uncle of the chap that took my place. And [pause], they, and I actually got photographs of the graves of my old crew, in fact there’s, in the local German report there were three bodies picked up on the edge of the village and the three names were the three of my crew and I, you can’t imagine how I felt.
JH: No, no.
DB: There but by the grace of God, I should have been.
JH: Yes, mmm.
DB: I think they were saving me up so that when I go off to Hell [everyone laughs], the old big chap, big devil will be waiting for me downstairs, ‘Butler, I’ve been waiting for you, now we’ll have a good night out together!’ [everyone laughs], that’s my little story that is, yes.
JH: That’s fabulous.
DB: Oh I can spend hours telling you about the trips but it’s, it was a trip that had to be done and so many that didn’t come back, by the grace of God I still wonder why so many of us got through our thirty trips.
JH: Yes, that’s quite something isn’t it, quite something.
DB: Wonderful, wonderful, even now you meet them and they say ‘hello’ and it’s, you can’t remember their faces but you could remember particularly. I can’t go to any of the bomber command reunions now, I find it’s too much, er, hanging around and waiting, but I still meet them if, particularly I have two of them that I meet on a Monday at Tesco’s! [laughs] and we have a little chat.
JH: That’s lovely.
DB: Very rare about the war, we don’t talk about ops, just ‘how are you, ok?, how you’re getting on, how’s everybody’, just a general chit-chat so, I was very fortunate, er [pause]. After I did my first tour, I did receive the Distinguished Flying Cross which was a great honour for me, the only sad thing was I was hoping to go down to the Palace to get it presented, but there were so many of them being awarded, getting through it, that I was not invited but I did get a letter from the King to say congratulations and it’s hanging up on the wall! [laughs].
JH: Oh yes.
DB: Leave it up there love, leave it up, oh yes.
EB: That’s it, I like to see it.
DB: [reading] ‘I greatly regret I am unable to give this person the award you so [unclear], I will now send it with my congratulations, signed George RI [laughs].
JH: What an honour, that’s lovely, yes.
DB: Buckingham Palace, so I’ve had a little letter from Buckingham Palace, yes.
JH: As you say, it’s a shame you weren’t able to receive it personally.
DB: Yes, I didn’t write back and say thank you [everyone laughs], I still wear it, I wear it on occasions, oh we had a parade the other day which was to put, get a new banner and we took [background rustling], oh that’s the old Lancaster [pause], and that’s the photograph of the parade which was interesting [background noise].
JH: So when was this, just the other?
DB: Last Sunday.
JH: Really? Where was this at, where was the parade?
DB: Oh the parade was at St Andrew’s church in the village.
JH: In the village, right, yes you must be very proud when you’re wearing the medal.
DB: Yes.
JH: When you were actually flying the operations, did you have to keep going up day after day, was there a break, you know, if you went on an operation did you -
DB: No, no, no.
JH: Did you -
DB: You just carried on, whenever there was an op on, you may have a break of three or four days, perhaps a week, but then perhaps you had two or three in a short space of time.
JH: And what were you actually doing while you were on the break then, when you weren’t -
DB: Oh checking your guns, and catching your, checking your turret, making sure it was all working because it was essential for it to be working properly, er, that in an attack the, the chap that I made friends with flew 110, FN 110’s and his method of attack was to fly from the ground, up underneath the aircraft because they had upfiring guns in their Luftwaffe aircraft and he used to position himself under and fire at the bomb bay and the engines and that’s how he managed to shoot down fifty-two bombers. Quite a character, he knew what he was doing [pause]. After the war I was very fortunate in being taken in the current Lancaster for a trip out and we went round the runway, and when we got back from the runway I was able to sit in the rear turret like I used to, knowing where everything was as if it was yesterday, knowing about the gunneries, the handles for this and the stops for that, knowing exactly where everything was. I got out and the skipper said, ‘how was that?’, I said it was like a dream come true, I said sitting in my rear turret, I said ‘do you realise that you’ve got a piece of turret missing?’, he said ‘turret missing?, what do you mean?’, I said ‘there’s a piece of your turret that is absent’, he said ‘what is that?’, I said ‘it’s the dead man’s handle’. He said ‘what on earth’s a dead man’s handle?’, I said ‘if we got shot up during the war through flak or Luftwaffe and we lost our hydraulics to the turrets which meant we couldn’t turn the turret, the dead man’s handle was on the left hand side and we used to click it into space and turn it to which way we wanted to get out quick’, ‘ooh’, he said, ‘I will have to look for one of those!’ [laughs] and I don’t think they’ve yet found one! [laughs].
JH: And this was at East Kirkby was it, the East Kirkby runway?
DB: Yes, yes, somewhere like that, yes lovely, well there we go, well I’m glad I found you a Luftwaffe pilot!
JH: Yes, that’s lovely [laughs].
DB: All the comments we’ve had in the past about bombing of Dresden and scattering bombs around it, I feel quite hurt that we should be criticised for the action that we took. Prior to our trip to Dresden which is in my log book on the certain date, er [pause], we were briefed as we always used to have before a bombing trip, we were briefed to what was going to happen there, we were briefed that there were a lot of German troops stationed around there, and the Russians were coming into it and there were at least three other Luftwaffe factories in that area so we didn’t feel quite guilty when we bombed Dresden, and we went into Dresden. We arrived late and the big fire which was reported in the papers, we arrived when it was going at full strength and that was when we dropped our bombs in the middle of it, and we got caught in some searchlights and the flak but we made it through to the other side, but I have no guilt complex whatsoever of bombing Dresden, nor do I have any guilt complex about bombing Berlin ten times. I have no guilt complex about bombing any German cities whatsoever, they were our enemies, the number of people that they had killed off-hand throughout their marches to all these wonderful old countries we knew of, that’s it, I have no guilt, that’s how I feel about our bombing of Germany.
JH: Yes, yes.
DB: So that’s on one trip, Berlin was always a heavy place to bomb, it took us one, it took us something like an hour to get from one side of Berlin to the other and that was always full of flak and searchlights and [pause] -
JH: I mean, looking back, you must think how lucky you were to survive.
DB: I still wonder and I still think it was the old devil looking after me, I’m quite convinced of it, looking after me! A wonderful period in my lifetime, that there are occasions when I tend, at ninety-six, to forget little items these days, not as flowing with memory as I used to be which is annoying for me, not being able to walk as easy as I did but it’s all wonderful memories because I’m so pleased I lived through it, I have no guilt [unclear] at all.
JH: No, I mean you obviously had wonderful camaraderie with your fellow colleagues at the time, your crew.
DB: Oh the crew that I flew with were wonderful, wonderful people, all, the bomb aimer was accurate, the pilot was superb, the engineer knowing what to do, the mid-upper firing his guns and keeping us safe, wonderful team of people we were, all seven of us and [pause] I, as far as I know, I am the last remaining member of two crews, having lost my first one so sadly who were lovely people, but now the other thirteen members have now left me on my own. I’m not very pleased about that! [laughs], not very pleased about that! Wonderful period.
JH: And did you have, after you I know you’d lost your first crew, then was the pilot then with you all of the rest of those operations? The second one?
DB: Oh we had one pilot for one crew, for one tour, he did thirty and he went off and did some other things, I don’t know what they all did, er.
JH: But you always flew with that pilot.
DB: I always flew with that pilot for thirty trips.
JH: Wow, right.
DB: And the same on my second tour, I flew with him for twenty five trips, every pilot, because they knew who you were, what you did, what you were capable of as well [pause].
EB: Well, did you not have to be accepted by the crew of your second trip?
DB: Oh yes, yes they accepted me quite well but they knew, of course, that their rear gunner had been, he’d put, he was the first chap back from his leave when I was missing, they had, there was a full crew requirement on all the aircraft and so they took this chap who’d just come back from leave in my place in the rear turret with my old crew. I didn’t know that, I didn’t know who he was, I never met him, I didn’t know of him so I, er [pause], you can’t imagine how I felt when I knew, I felt like death warmed up, as if it was, he had taken my place and didn’t come home and he was missing, they were missing for some time before they were declared shot down, as his nephew found out that they’d been. And it was interesting to read the, an old pilot’s report on how he shot the aircraft down, it was on its way back from Nuremberg and Nuremberg was a very heavily defended city for flak and guns, and it was probably that that brought, I don’t know what it was brought down, whether it was a, I have a feeling that it was a Luftwaffe pilot that brought it down who gave me his report on how he shot it down [pause] and I got the report of him in my papers here somewhere. I never thought I could have got that out unless you read it but [unclear] so I’m glad I’ve found [background noise] my old friend there! [laughs], he put on a little bit of weight when I met him [laughs] but he got the iron cross, two iron crosses which is one of the top.
JH: Oh, awards for the Germans.
DB: [pause] handsome lad!
JH: And obviously through all this time your wife, then you had met him, did you say, in the 1940s?
EB: Oh yes we met, we met in 1940.
DB: She didn’t know what I did when I went down to London because I’d met her and we then parted.
EB: Yes, I didn’t hear anything from him for quite a while, did I?
DB: No, it must, ‘40, the end of about, the beginning of ’41, I got posted down to London, ‘41, ’42. It was down at London when I volunteered to become aircrew. I then went through all my training and it was 1943 when I got crewed up and ‘44 when I finished my first tour and about ’44, ’45, I’d received, I’d been promoted to flying officer, I’d got my gong up with my aircrew badge which I didn’t have when I first met Edna, and I was a young flying officer so when I first met Edna I was just an ordinary AC plonk [laughs].
EB: Yes! [laughs].
DB: And so I reverted from being an AC plonk to a young flying officer with a badge up and a medal up, so I thought ‘ooh’, and I was posted to a station four miles down the road from where Stafford operated and I was, I used to borrow a bicycle, go from the Officers’ Mess into Stafford and I said I wonder what it’s like to go and knock on the door to an old girlfriend and see what she’s like, so I duly arrived at Blackiston Street, remember the name of the road?
EB: Yes.
DB: Knocked on the door and says, ‘hello, oh surprise, surprise’ and we went together ever since.
EB: Well, I used to work at the Admiralty because when the Admiralty was down in Coventry, when Coventry was bombed, they moved it all up to one of the new schools that had just been built in Stafford on the outskirts, so I had, I and my sister both went to work there and we were there and when I came from there on the bus one Saturday from work down to, I used to get off outside the cinema and who should be standing there but this one! Absolutely flabbergasted, I said -
DB: Well, of course.
EB: ‘What are you doing here?’
DB: I felt [unclear] in my glory at being commissioned and badges up and medals up [laughs].
EB: Yes, and from then on -
DB: I, I really felt the bee’s knees as you can just imagine, how you would feel at that and I was only [pause] -
EB: You weren’t very old, were you?
DB: No, I was about twenty-four.
EB: Yes.
DB: Beautiful.
EB: Full of himself.
DB: And I’m still, and I’m still beautiful [laughs].
EB: [laughs].
JH: [laughs] of course!
EB: And everything went from there.
DB: Yes, I always tell my wife, never mind my lovely one, you’re still beautiful and she still is!
JH: Absolutely.
EB: He got on very well with my stepmother, didn’t you?
DB: We got on like a house on board, yes.
EB: He’d got a motorcycle and I wouldn’t go on it, because when you went round the corners I was frightened you see, but Mother used to go on the back, oh she never used to worry, did she?
DB: I was off, yes, I retired to Stafford.
EB: And then you went on the council.
DB: I got on the council, and then I was offered a commission because they ran short of officers in the RAF, they wanted specialised [unclear] officers so I was offered a permanent commission. So I said I was a job in Her Majesty’s Government, tax office for a short while, so I said ‘I’m off’ and so we, I went back into the RAF and -
JH: What year was that?
DB: That would be ’48, something like that, ’47, yes.
EB: Yes.
DB: ‘47 yes, about three years afterwards, came out then went back in again and then spent thirty-two years in it and I still miss the RAF, used to enjoy the RAF, enjoy, splendid place, splendid people. Ah well, there you go
EB: So, so that’s what he misses now, don’t you, you really do miss -
DB: Yes I do
EB: Lots of parts of the RAF life really
DB: Yes, that’s, you can’t have it always
EB: It’s just memories now, David
DB: Yes, yes, difficult remembering memories too sometimes. I was trundling along telling you something and then I couldn’t remember the end of it [pause], but then it flashed back again, a bit disjointed our little chit-chat I think somewhere.
JH: I think it’s been -
DB: A little bit fed in
JH: Yes, but that’s -
DB: Is there anything that I can broaden for you to give you a little bit more information, is there anything you’ve fancied I ought to tell you?
JH: [laughs] well
DB: Is there anything you, memorabilia-wise I could tell you?
EB: I think you’ve told it almost everything
DB: I’ve told you what it’s like sitting in a turret, I’ve told you about one or two other -
JH: Yes, absolutely
DB: Attacks that we had, and we completed, we mentioned what the Luftwaffe, telling the pilot to jink, we got that in about telling the pilot to jink
JH: Yes
EB: Yes
DB: Got that in
JH: Yes, no, I think we’ve fairly comprehensive
DB: There some little bit about something, exciting ones [laughs]
EB: I think you’ve covered almost all the -
DB: ‘course you’ve been sitting there as well, you’ve listened.
EB: Yes
DB: This lass has heard it all over again, she’s heard it so many times now she can even tell me the stories!
EB: I could write the book meself!
DB: You could write , I did start writing a book and after the first chapter I got fed up with it, ‘oh to hell with it’, I never bothered, never bothered.
EB: Well, I think you thought that so many people had already written -
DB: I’ve got books here about air gunners and what have you so, all with their funny stories and they’ve got lots of stories that I’ve never seen or heard of.
JH: Well, you all have something to say, don’t you, I mean, you know, in fairness so -
DB: I used to like to fly in the Lancaster, wonderful, I had the pleasure of flying my son in an aircraft, he’s got his own aircraft, and he took me up one day and said, ‘here you are, fly it!’ and I did and I said ‘star, we’re diving starboard, go!’ [laughs]. But I used to enjoy giving other pilots who used to, we used to get Spitfires and other single-engine flights doing practice attacks on us so that we knew what was coming and how to avoid them, what was the best evasive action and I worked out one or two good manoeuvres which I used to get the Spitfire doing, and they used to say, ‘sod you, I’m off!’ [laughs] and they used to dive like that away from us.
JH: When was this then, what -
DB: In between bombing trips.
JH: Right.
DB: So that we could practice and get the other people, and it was my job in the rear turret to give evasive action command to the skipper because I could, I was a better [unclear], because I could see him coming up, the mid-upper could see coming down, and I could see him coming down, and I could see him, being in the turret gave me a much better view.
JH: Right, so that was quite important then, position.
DB: Yes, if I saw anything I used to say to the skipper, ‘I’m going to give him a little burst, skip’, ‘okay’, because if I saw anything, because seeing [emphasis] a fighter in the dark you couldn’t, except moonlight. You could see a bit, depends on where he was, you could see movement, you might see a little bit of engine combustion but generally speaking you didn’t, the only thing you did, you saw was some red hot bullets coming over the top of your turret or pinging your turret. That was the only thing you saw and then you knew you’d got problems and I always used, if I saw anything coming up that was, I always give him a ‘dive to starboard, go, go, go’ [shouts] and he used to dive to starboard, dive to port whichever, if the fighter pilot was this side and he was coming up, I always used to give a ‘dive to starboard, go’, that meant the skipper would put the aircraft down like that and present a crossing speed, you passed aircraft much quicker than you would do if you started, ‘cause he could then follow you so you had to.
JH Yes, cuts across.
DB: You had to be on the ball to make sure that he couldn’t follow you and shoot at you, it was essential [emphasis] you gave him the right order, so you had to, you had to be on the ball when you first saw and you didn’t have a lot of time when you first saw the chap.
JH: So the pilot was relying on you an awful lot?
DB: Oh yes, very much so that you gave him the right [pause] -
JH: instructions.
DB: Yes, oh we never got shot down so that was [laughs].
EB: Mind you-
JH: You must’ve been good! [laughs]
DB: Must’ve helped!
EB: There was a lot of rear gunners lost their lives, wasn’t there David?
DB; Oh yes.
EB: Because they used to attack the rear gunner before anything else really.
DB: I suppose so.
EB: There was quite a lot, a lot of them that got killed wasn’t there.
DB: Yes [quietly], a long time ago.
EB: So you have to count your blessings my love, don’t you?
DB: Yes, and I still think you’re beautiful! [everyone laughs].
EB: This is the flannel I have to get from being in the Air Force! [laughs].
JH: Well, I would like to thank you, David, for allowing me to record this interview today and thank you both very much.
EB: It’s been a pleasure.
DB: But I’m rather sad that I (unclear).
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with David Butler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-23
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AButlerDWJ160623, PButlerDWJ1602
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:02:27 audio recording
Contributor
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Davy St Pyer
Vivienne Tincombe
Description
An account of the resource
David Butler, DFC, was born in Cherry Hinton in April 1920 and joined the Royal Air Force on the 11th January 1940, serving in France at Reims as the Germans advanced. After walking some distance, he was evacuated back to England on a Polish boat and arrived in Southampton.
He tells of how he was hospitalised with a very high temperature, and how his replacement and his crew were lost over Nuremburg.
He was posted to 12 Squadron at Wickenby, flying in Lancasters as a Rear Gunner, and then he was posted to 171 Squadron at North Creake.
David tells of his scraps with the Luftwaffe and meeting some Luftwaffe Pilots at the end of the war and he tells of meeting those pilots who were firing at him.
Made a career in the Royal Airforce and served in Egypt, Iraq and Jordan as well as completing administration courses and serving at other Royal Air Force Stations including the Royal Air Force Medical Station at Headley Court as an Adjutant.
After the war, got a job at Girton College and became President of the Royal British Legion in Cambridge.
David completed a total of 55 Operations, 30 on his first tour of duty and then completing 25 operations on his second tour.
12 Squadron
171 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF North Creake
RAF Wickenby
-
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5a3cd8cca736e6e7d74d11b6798b4d6e
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Brittain, John Taylor
J T Brittain
Description
An account of the resource
42 items. The collection concerns Sergeant John Taylor Brittain (2227748, Royal Air Force). After training as an air gunner at Morpeth and conversion and training at Silverston, North Luffenham and Feltwell, he was posted to 195 Squadron at RAF Wratting Common in February 1945 and flew on operations as a mid upper gunner on Lancaster. The collection consists of his flying logbook; official documents; letters to colleagues and his mother; photographs of people, events, places and aircraft; as well as an album concerning his boat.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Andrew Whitehouse and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Brittain, JT
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Sgt. Brittain J.T.
Sgts Mess.
R.A.F. North Luffenham
Near Oakham.
Rutland.
Wednesday.
[inserted] [underlined] P.S. [/underlined] Would you mind sending the enclosed 3 collars to the laundry. [/inserted]
Dearest Mum.
Many thanks for your screed and all your news. The weather here is absolutely deadly, and is keeping us on the ground. We did fly 3 nights ago in a temperature of -45° Centigrade and my breath froze in the air into ice crystals. At briefing we were told to keep out of cumulo nimbus clouds at all costs. Remember those thunder clouds we were arguing about!!??
Please explain to Auntie [one indecipherable word] that we haven't had any time or opportunity to get to Peterborough as we have been on the flying detail since Dec 27th.
[page break]
Your queries about the crew were unneccesary as I have never had more confidence in any set of chaps, and as for the skipper, well the same goes for him too. Whether individually or together you couldn't find a better set of blokes. We all have complete and utter confidence in each other, so you needn't worry your head on that score
I don't know yet when we are going to a squadron as we have one more trip to do here yet, however I will let you know as soon as possible. We won't be getting any leave from here [drawing of sad face with tears] but we will when we get to a squadron [drawing of happy face] !!
No more news yet so will close
Tons of love
John.
[inserted] [underlined] P.S. [/underlined] Did you receive the laundry. [/inserted]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from John Brittain to his mother
Description
An account of the resource
Writes of flying in bad weather and very low temperatures. Says he has not had time to visit relative in Peterborough. Writes of absolute confidence in skipper and crew. Mentions no dates for squadron and no sign of leave until they get to new location.
Format
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Two page handwritten letter
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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EBrittainJTBrittain[Mo]450118
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Rutland
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Joy Reynard
David Bloomfield
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Taylor Brittain
military ethos
military service conditions
RAF North Luffenham
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Joe
Joe S Harrison
J S Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
26 items. The collection concerns Joe Harrison DFC (646488 Royal Air Force) and contains a brief memoir, documents, photographs and memorabilia. It also includes copies of The Marker, the Pathfinder Association magazine.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Joe Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Harrison, JS
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Ops are on. Maximum effort.
September 27th, 1943. 156 Squadron Path Finder Force, Warboy’s, [sic] Huntington. All aircrew on duty to be at briefing at 1400 hrs, meals 1440 hrs, and take off 1545hrs. In the briefing room, all crews were now assembled, awaiting the entrance of the Station and Squadron flight commanders.
On their entry, we all stood, and were told “Sit down gentleman.”
The Station commander stood at the small raised platform, and drew the curtain covering the target, opening the briefing with the words, “The targets tonight are the factories and railway yards in Brunswick, Germany.” We all looked at the target, with me and other gunners taking note of where the fighter attacks en route would likely take place. Specialists took over the briefing, showing the routes into, and away from the targets. The route, into and out of the target being marked by the ac-tual routes shown from base, to the target, and return, with dog legs shown. These route briefings showed where the main searchlight and gun batteries were to be encountered, with known enemy fighter stations marked, and followed with details of how the actual marking of the target would be undertaken, firstly by primary marking crews, dropping red target indicators, with backers up drop-ping green and or yellow markers. Our role in this attack was as a supporter to the primary marker crews, to try and draw the night fighters, and flak away from them as they marked the aiming points for main force to hit, carrying only some markers, and bombs.
After the main briefing, the pilots and navigators, and nav/bomb aimers attended separate briefings, with the wireless operators, flight engineers and gunners being briefed by our various leaders.
We were all given a hefty meal of eggs and bacon, and went to our hut for a lie down, and maybe a short nap. O.k. boy’s wakey-wakey, and it is off to our lockers to get dressed in our flying kit. I had an electrically heated suit to wriggle into, and then into my other flying clothes, with wool lined boots, warm jacket, and then parachute harness, topped off with my helmet, goggles, and fur lined gloves. Contrary to some reports my gloves were not heated. Fully dressed at last, with some ribald com-ments as one tried to make oneself comfortable in certain places. All dressed, and it is pick up your parachutes, and, for me, a shuffle to the outside and all to get picked up by the crew bus, with some other crews, and taken to dispersal.
Arriving at our aircraft, it was with a few catcalls aimed at the other crews on the bus, such as “Don’t get lost”, or “Make sure that heap of yours gets you there and back”
Before take-off, Bob our pilot chatted to us all as we stood at the base of the ladder before climbing on board “Y: Yorker our Lancaster bomber. We had all had a look into the bomb bay, and had seen our 4000lb bomb, and others all neatly arrayed side by side, waiting for the doors to be closed. He stressed to us that we relied on each other, and to put into practice the tactical planning we had done together.
This was our first crossing into Germany, and as it was our very first op., and never having been on operations before joining Pathfinders! It was with a sense of apprehension that we approached the target area. The area was swarming with enemy fighters, and the flak was intense. Fighters were pick-ing out their targets, and I saw a fighter converging onto our tail.
“Rear gunner to skipper, fighter coming in on our port side, dive port GO!” Cannon shells hit our air-craft, and I opened up on him with my guns. He veered away, and I shouted to Monty, our mid-upper gunner, “Breaking to starboard Monty” and he opened up with his guns as the fighter climbed away. He soon had another target, as a Lancaster careened to earth as a flaming ball of fire, a short distance away.
Lancaster’s were being shot down very close to us, and in my rear turret I was keeping up a barrage of gun fire to try and keep the fighters away, with the mid-upper joining in when the fighters entered his area of control. I could not believe my eyes, as I saw so many of our aircraft shot down, and thought “what have we let ourselves into?” We were hit many times with cannon shells, and our aircraft was badly damaged. The cannon shells hitting our aircraft sounded like a lot of thumps and bangs, and I was flung about in my turret as I called to Bob to dive, or corkscrew, and at times was standing up in my turret, and trying to get sight on a fighter as it climbed towards us. Spraying the area he was fly-ing into.
[page break]
During a brief lull, Bob called each member of the crew to ascertain if they were o.k. sending Mick, our wireless operator down the fuselage to assess the damage, and to see if I was o.k. He said I had sounded funny on the intercom, and Mick discovered that my oxygen hose had been severed. Bob dropped us down to about 12000 ft, and I was soon feeling better. Fortunately we were in a lull, and were soon heading for home.
Searchlights had been constantly searching the sky looking for us and other bombers, and all in all it seemed so unreal. There was considerable damage done to us from the fighter and ack ack guns, and on landing back at base we all realized [sic] how lucky we had been. The cannon shells had luckily missed our vital controls, but my turret doors were peppered with shrapnel pieces, and the side pan-els were damaged. The tail units were holed in a few places with canon shells. One stream of shells had ripped through the aircraft missing the Mid-upper turret by inches, causing the mid-upper to comment that he was obviously the target, being so important! Luckily the shells had not exploded, going straight through.
Landing back at base, and getting to our dispersal point, we managed to force the damaged rear door open, with the help of ground staff, to enable us to get out. Engines off, and repairs were under way almost immediately.
I was at a loss as to why we had been hit so many times by fighter cannon shells, and wondered whether our tactics were working, and where I had gone wrong. Talking things over with the crew, after we were through interrogation, it emerged that maybe we gunners were opening fire too late on the enemy, through trying to get them in our sights, as this was extremely difficult, especially with the target aircraft being so small, and their speed, and darkness, and with our aircraft twisting and diving as I called the skipper to take evasive action. The next day, we all got together in our room, to discuss what had happened during this our first operation. Studying our graphs, Bob and I devised a new tactic of spraying the area the fighter would fly into, and hoping for more hits on the enemy. The enemy fighters with fixed guns had to fly straight and level to get us in their sights that made them such a small target for our guns. The rest of the crew went through their various recollections of what had happened, and it was with renewed spirits that we looked at each other, and were indeed a crew. On the 7th of October I was admitted to Ely hospital suffering from the after effects of bruises, and lack of oxygen. I had found it painful to take deep breaths, and was quite sore bodily. I should have reported sick earlier on, but as bad weather set in, we were attending lectures etc. I spent from the 7th of October, until the 2nd of November 1943 in hospital recovering.
Bob had insisted with the Squadron commander that he would not accept another permanent rear gunner take my place, but would wait my return from hospital.
On my discharge from hospital, I was pronounced fit to fly, and I re-joined my crew on November the 2nd. 1943.
I spent a couple of hours that afternoon checking, and sitting in my turret and getting the feel of things again, as I admit I was feeling quite nervous. “Y” Yorker had been extensively repaired, and had been air tested the day before my return. My crew had done a few sorties during my absence with different rear-gunners, on different aircraft, causing me a lot of anxiety, and were all delighted at my return, bantering me and accusing me of sneaking off for a holiday, and deserting the crew, with the stern admonishment from Fred, the nav/bomb aimer, that a repeat would not be tolerated.
We are on ops. on November the 3rd. 1943. But that is another story. Cologne was the target.
The crew comprised of,
Pilot. Sgt Mclean, Navigator, P.O. Hunting. Nav/Bomb aimer, Sgt Whybrow. Flight Engineer Sgt Burn. Wireless Operator, Sgt Wenham. Mid-upper gunner Sgt Mortimer. Rear Gunner, Sgt Harrison.
Copy right. Joseph Stanley Harrison D.F.C. Lo Honour.
[signature of Joseph Harrison, DFC. LoH]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ops are on. Maximum effort
Description
An account of the resource
A memoir by Joe Harrison of his first operation in 1943. He describes the initial briefing, the events during the bombing run, the damage to their aircraft and his subsequent illness. Includes descriptions of the post-op analysis and good crew relationship.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Joe Harrison
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-09-27
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two typewritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BHarrisonJSHarrisonJSv10001,
BHarrisonJSHarrisonJSv10002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Germany
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Braunschweig
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-27
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alan Pinchbeck
156 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
Pathfinders
RAF Warboys
target indicator
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/347/3515/AWatsonPHC170123.1.mp3
73879fdb831b3fe83b9751209444c0e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Watson, Peter
Peter Henry Clifford Watson
Peter H C Watson
P H C Watson
P Watson
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Peter Henry Clifford Watson (182029 Royal Air Force), his log book and a photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 101 and 115 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Watson, PHC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: OK [pause] OK, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MacCartney and the interviewee is Peter Watson. The interview is taking place at Mr Watson’s home in Clontarf, New South Wales on the 23rd of January 2017. Peter, you mentioned you were born in 1924 but I don’t know quite where. Where was it?
PW: I was born in South Wales, a very — in a little village near Cardiff.
JM: Right, and did you do all your education in Wales?
PW: I did part of it in Wales and then I went to King’s School, Worcester for four years. That’s a cathedral school in Worcester.
JM: Right and does that mean you were part of the choir there?
PW: I was. Well, yes, a little bit. I was what? I used to sing in the choir.
JM: Right, right and was that the, the latter part of your education?
PW: Er, well actually when the war started they evacuated the whole school to North Wales for one year and then they brought us back to Worcester, and then I finished my, er, matriculation in 1941, and left the school there and then started a training to become an engineer until I was old enough to fly.
JM: Right, OK, and so that was until 1943?
PW: ’43.
JM: When you enlisted?
PW: Yes.
JM: And whereabouts did you do your enlistment?
PW: We did it in London.
JM: Ah, the London Recruitment Centre?
PW: Yes.
JM: Right, OK.
PW: There were about a hundred of us in the, in the one intake and, er, I might mention every one of us wanted to be a pilot. We all wanted to fly Spitfires and shoot down Germans, and get Victoria Crosses, and then end up with a romance with the group captain’s daughter but it didn’t happen that way [slight laugh]. And after a couple days we were told, whether we liked it or not, we had to be trained as air gunners because there was a surplus of pilots and a shortage of air gunners, and that was the last thing we wanted, but we volunteered to do what we were told and that’s what we did.
JM: Yes, indeed and where did you do that? After you, you had your recruitment in London and then after that where did you go?
PW: Yes. We went to, I went to Bridlington in Yorkshire, just for ground training then flying training started at Stormy Down at South Wales for several weeks. And then we went to a thing called an OTU, um, Operating Training Unit, in Tilsbury [?] near Sal— , near Sal— near, er, oh dear, North Wales anyhow. And then we crewed-up and then finally went to a four — four-engine — you were trained on two-engine aircraft, then you finally became a crew member and a seven member crew was formed at the, er, four-engine training centre in Lincolnshire.
JM: Right.
PW: And then because we — when we were sent to our first squadron, er, it was known as a special duties squadron because we carried an eighth member of a crew. Instead or seven, we had eight. The eighth member being a German-speaking person, who had radio equipment, who was carried on board our planes to interfere with the German night fighter system.
JM: Right, so this is 101 Squadron?
PW: 101 Squadron.
JM: And this is in February ’44.
PW: Yes. Ludford Magna.
JM: Yes, yes and because that had the ABC equipment, um, is that right?
PW: Airborne Cigar.
JM: Yes, so that was, um, so you, you were in part of those flights there then?
PW: Yes, I did, I did I think it was thirteen or fourteen flights from Ludford Magna and then we were selected to go and form a new squadron, essentially with Polish airmen, at a place called Faldingworth, about twelve miles away, and we finished the rest of our tour with 300 Squadron.
PM: Right, so, um, how long, how — in the 300, 300 Squadron is the Polish Squadron is it?
PW: Yes.
PM: So how long were you in that squadron for?
PW: I think, I think it was about three months between the time that we’d — I think we’d done, I’m not sure, about fourteen or fifteen at Ludford Magna before we went to Faldingworth and we ended up doing the balance of thirty three trips with, with 300 Squadron.
PM: Right, OK. And so that took you through then to 1945?
PW: Well after, after we had finished our tour we had to be grounded for six months and I was selected for some reason or other to, to go to 460 Australian Squadron at Binbrook, in a non- non-operational unit, because they were doing a special — they were trying to introduce radar operated rear turrets in Lancasters and Halifaxes and’ um, I was part of that study to introduce that and it was called Operation Village Inn. But after that, after six months, I got orders to go back on operations so I went down to Number 3 Group in, in, um, Cambridge, and I forget the county’s name of Cambridge but it was Cambridge, and I did two daylight trips with, with 115 Squadron and then the war ended and then we went on to, er, taking food to Holland and then bringing back prisoners of war from France and Italy.
JM: Right, so that was all part of 115?
PW: Yes.
JM: Yes, right. So 115 was probably what? From about May, May ’45 was it?
PW: Yes, yes, 115, September ’45 until, er, September ’46.
JM: Right.
PW: And then, um, funnily enough I went to Leconfield for a two-week training course where your, your father was but by then it was just a post-war training and they were doing training for gunnery leaders, and then I was promoted to gunnery leader of Number 15 Squadron at Wyton. And that’s where I stayed until I was demobbed but I was a flight lieutenant by then. But then at the end, as a post-war economy measure, every war-time officer was reduced in rank from flight lieutenant to flying officer [slight laugh] so I was finally discharged as a flying officer.
JM: Mm, OK. So that was a little thumbnail sketch of, of your service there.
PW: Yes.
JM: Perhaps we’ll go back and, um, just take a look at each of those three sort of postings. What? You said you had about fifteen missions in 101, um, was that more over Ger— over Germany particularly or —
PW: Yes, essentially Germany and then —
JM: And was your, was your plane dropping bombs as well as jamming or —
PW: Oh yes. We were essentially a bomber but we just carried this extra man and we were honour bound never to talk to him about his job, even though he ate and slept with us, we were honour bound not to because of the secrecy but the aircraft were very obviously — you could tell which aircraft they were because they had big aerials forward of the mid-upper turret and, you know, they could pick us off easily and what we didn’t know at the time was that the Germans were able to hone in on our equipment. We didn’t know this until after the war. They were able to hone in on our equipment and pick us off and, er, hence our losses at 101 were much higher than the average. In fact, I think it was Nuremburg, which was the worst of all the night flights, when we lost 108 aircraft, 96 over Germany and I think twelve over England afterwards and, er, it was, it was a dreadful night but there we are. But yes, that was it.
JM: So, um, that meant, obviously, you were going into some pretty densely populated areas I presume?
PW: Yes, yes, yes. Places like Nuremburg, Munich, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, Brunswick, Berlin. I didn’t do Berlin but Berlin was one of the very populous, very common areas. Hamburg in particular, Kiel canal, where, incidentally we went to bomb the martialling yards but, er, accidentally dropped our bombs a little bit away and it, it landed on the German battleship the Admiral Von Scheer and sunk it. So, I mean how lucky were we? And when I say ‘we’ — the squadron. One of the planes from the squadron dropped its bombs in the wrong spot and sank the Von Scheer.
JM: It wasn’t your actual plane?
PW: No.
JM: Right, OK, well so instead of getting a bit of a bollocking they would — there was a bit of a cheer I suspect.
PW: Yes. Yes.
OK. Yes. Yes. So, um, OK. Then when you moved from 101 to 300 did your whole crew move together?
PW: Yes, yes.
JM: So your whole seven stayed together.
PW: The eighth member stayed at 101.
JM: Eight. OK and was your crew, were all of those eight people, er, English or did you have any other —
PW: We had one Canadian.
JM: One Canadian.
PW: Yes and our special operator later on was, was an Aussie, yes, called Beutel, B E U T E L, Graham Buetel. Yes.
JM: Aha and then in your — you had a number of missions in the Polish Squadron? What sort of — was the emphasis — was there any particular action?
PW: We were just, we were just part of the main force but we didn’t leave 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna until two weeks after D-Day, and D-Day was a particularly interesting project for us because we, we were put onto a special flight to try and imitate a naval fleet going from Dover to Calais to try and make the Germans think that that was where the invasion was going to take place, and we went round in, in sort of square circles for about six or eight hours to try to imitate — dropping window stuff to make the Germans think that that might have been where the invasion was taking place. Whether it succeeded we never found out.
JM: So that was still part of 101?
PW: No, er, that was part of 101 and it was the last but one I think before we left, yes.
JM: Right OK and then in, um, Polish Squadron just normal —
PW: Just normal.
JM: Normal routine flights there. Day and night or just —
PW: No, all night stuff and we took a lot of Polish people as extras on flights prior to them taking over the — on their own flights. You see, the Ger— the Polish airmen were complete for one air— for a particular aircraft. It would all be Polish, but before they did that we used to take them as second dickies and things like that, to get them trained and also to control them because they were a very uncontrollable lot, in the sense that their, their hatred for Germany was so great that there were rumours, and I think it happened, that after bombing in Germany they would go down at ground level and try and shoot at all the searchlights with the rear gunners but that was the sort of emotion that existed on that station and it was very prevalent.
JM: Yes so —
PW: But mostly I think of my flying is with 101 because that’s when the dramas started and I did have a couple of dramas.
JM: As in?
PW: Well, I was extremely lucky. In the first flight that we made we got attacked by a Focke-Wulf 190 over the, over the target, and we got hit a little bit and we hit him a little bit and he came back for a second attack on us. We fired at him again and we saw him — well, we saw him going past at the side of us after he flew to one side and another aircraft watching from the other side, flying parallel with us, saw the pilot bail out, so we were unofficially given the credit of having destroyed him, and it was a particularly nasty experience because we also got, we were hit in many places but none of us were personally hurt and we, we thought after that flight we wouldn’t last more than two or three more flights because it was so horrendous, you know. But then the second night, that was at a place called Schweinfurt. And we went to bomb Schweinfurt because they had a lot of production of ball bearings at factories which they needed for the for U-boats, and the U-boats were giving curry in the Atlantic at the time, and they thought if we could bomb the ball bearing factories the U-boats couldn’t go to sea and they couldn’t sink our ships. That was the sort of theory. But the second night was a night where I’ll always remember because over the target we were coned by searchlights. There would have been fifty of them at least and, er, an explosive, a shell, blew, blew us underneath us whilst we were on our bombing run and it completely destroyed all our hydraulics, and also we were hit with another bomb dropping from an aircraft above and we had about six feet of our wing tip broken off. And luckily our pilot, who was wonderful, managed to keep us stable and fortunately all our engines were OK, but we ended up with our bomb doors open with, with some incendiaries that we couldn’t release and, and we couldn’t come back and land normally. We had to come back and belly land because we had no wheels to put down, we had no flaps and we didn’t know even whether we’d make it because we, when we hit the ground we had all these incendiaries on board, but fortunately they dropped off and went off like fireworks while we skidded on the ground for about half a mile and then finally came to a stop, but we, we never thought that we would survive that night but we did. And, do you know, one of the first people to turn up afterwards while we waited for a crew wagon to pick us up was the Salvation Army canteen and they offered us cups of tea and cigarettes. Oh, they were wonderful and, er, but the emotional part of that is that I had to go into hospital for a short while and while I was there my crew went off with another gunner in my place and they never came back. Well they came back but they crash landed and were all killed so there was I, on my own, and the thing that, I suppose emotionally, and I never forget and it’s still with me, er, we shared a Nissan hut with two crews, our crew and another crew, so after my crew disappeared I was the only the one there with the other eight members of another crew. Two days later they disappeared so I was one, one person in a room of sixteen, in the middle of winter with nothing else to do, and the emotion, and knowing that all your crew were dead. And, er, you didn’t have group therapists in those days. You just had to put up with it and that’s sort of stuck with me ever since [sniff] mm.
JM: Goodness me and, and then they expected you to go off and just happily join a new crew and get on with it.
PW: Well, once, once you were — you were seen as a jinx. If you were a survivor of a dead crew nobody wanted you, er, but there were so many times when crews needed other people that I was eventually put with another crew and within a few days we were all good mates and I, we spent the rest of our tour as a crew very happily. Yes.
JM: And is that the crew — and that crew was also all —
PW: They were all English.
JM: English. Which crew was it that the —
PW: Well the pilot of my first crew was a Sergeant Roy Dixon and, er, I didn’t know until later that the night that he died his commission came through as a pilot officer. He was just a sergeant before and he also got the Distinguished Flying Medal. And I have a photograph here of our aircraft when it landed I could give to you if you like.
JM: That would be very interesting to see that.
PW: Incidentally, in the photograph because of security reasons they ob— obliterated the two aerials.
JM: Of course yes, yes.
PW: Yes. That was, er, that was life but it was tough because our losses and, in fact, at Nuremburg we lost five aircraft. That’s a lot of aircraft in one squadron.
JM: That’s a lot. That’s a huge amount, yes. At least from all those subse— those first two missions were the first two that really —
PW: Blooded us.
JM: Yes, well and truly, and then from there on in you, you and your crew stayed intact for the rest of the course of the — all your other subsequent missions, which is so pleasing given such a horrendous, horrendous start for you. Yes indeed. And, um, and then on that basis I guess nothing compared with those early experiences from 300 and 115 really?
PW: No, no, no, they were much easier. I mean, you couldn’t go on and you couldn’t get away with what we got away with there more than once I’m sure, but, er, and luckily by the time we landed from the flight, because we were flying with our bomb doors open and no flaps and so forth we landed when, after everyone else had gone, had landed. Sometimes, or very often, when you got back to your aerodrome there were twenty other aircraft waiting to land and you hung around for perhaps an hour before it was your turn to land but by the time we got home we were about an hour late —
JM: You were a straggler.
PW: And we went straight in but we weren’t allowed to land on the runway. We had to land on the grass which really was good because it was wet and soaking and —
JW: Made it slippery [unclear]
JM: And flame-wise it was good and we didn’t — we anticipated we might blow up because of the bombs we still had on board but they dropped off instantly, fortunately, and by the time we came to a halt — and I don’t think there was much left in the petrol tanks [slight laugh]. But on our first trip I might have mentioned that the — when we were attacked he hit one of our fuel tanks and set it on fire but we were able to extinguish it with an extinguisher system that they had in the aircraft, which is wonderful. And one of the big, one of the big loss reasons — there were two reasons we lost a lot of aircraft, one was collisions, because when you had seven or eight hundred aircraft all going within half an hour of bombing a place you had to be more, more careful than ever of bumping into anyone else and the only times you could see them was when it was moonlight. Other times, all you could see was the red, red exhausts. The exhausts of the Merlin engines are red hot and the only thing, that’s the only thing you could see on a flying, plane flying alongside you, but you had the rear gunner, the mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator and the bomb aimer all looking because they didn’t have anything else to do until they got to the targets, you see. I mean, the bombers would — the air gunners were looking for fighters but the others were also looking for fighters but as well to make sure you weren’t bumping into any aircraft and we had a couple of near misses. But that was the way things were.
JM: That’s right. Right and with, with this crew, um, you stayed together right through in 300 and 115. Did you stay together for the post-war stuff as well?
PW: Yes. Yes. The war finished in, well in May and then in August we were going to go out of the Far East because Japan was still, still active in the Far East but then in August of that year the war ended in Japan, so we never went but we were kept as a squadron. The Air Force kept a fairly strong force of Lancasters and Halifaxes for at least two years and one of the reasons, probably never written in history, but England was frightened of Russia coming west and we, I think the Government, decided we’d better stay powerful, so I didn’t get de-mobbed for two years after the war had finished. But by then of course I was a gunnery leader in 15 Squadron but we had very, very little to do and very boring in the end.
JM: Yes, so you were actually doing what? Training flights or —
PW: Training flights and things like that. And, er, when the immediate war finished in Europe though we were quite busy. We would fly to France and pick up released prisoners of war. The Americans flew them from wherever in Germany, and Italy, and around there to France and then the Royal Air Force used the Lancs and Halifaxes to fly them back to England. And I, I think we had seventy thousand prisoners we managed to get back. Then after that we flew out to Italy to bring similar prisoners of war who’d been stuck in Italy. We flew them back to England. And we loved those trips because we’d never been abroad and it was the first time we’d flown into a place where it was really hot weather and we could buy apricots and peaches. [laugh]
JM: Because again you were flying in, in spring summer sort of by this stage so —
PW: Yes and really the gunners were really only like only flight lieutenants, yes.
JM: Because you actually had no —
PW: Nothing to do except being sort of stewards for the people and of course it was very uncomfortable where they could sit down in the aircraft wherever they could find a spot.
JM: Well that’s right because I presume they tried to put as many people as possible onto those flights to maximise the, the value of each trip so to speak.
PW: Yes. That’s right. It took about five or six hours to get from Italy back to England and that’s a long time for people not in very good condition.
JM: Well because a lot of them would have had injuries, um, sickness and being in prisoner of war camps they would have been in pretty poor shape generally I would assume.
PW: And, er, quite a lot of them had been originally before the war out in India and they were on their way back to Europe in 1940, ‘41 I guess, and they got caught in North Africa and from there they were taken prisoner by the Germans and sent to Italy, so some of them hadn’t seen England since 1935.
JM: Goodness me.
PW: Yes and there was one, there was one old tough old fella there and we put him up in the nose so he could see the white cliffs of Dover and we flew — he started crying. He couldn’t, couldn’t resist. It was very emotional.
JM: He couldn’t not [emphasis].
PW: No.
JM: Goodness me. When you went did you — was it like a day trip for you in as much in that you went straight back in, loaded the servicemen, and then flew straight back out again or did you fly in and have a day off?
PW: Oh we always had a day off.
JM: Day off, right, OK. So you actually got to see the immediate surrounds of the airfields where you flew in then?
PW: Yes, yes.
JM: What memories do you — any particular experiences that stand out there?
PW: [laugh] Funnily enough, funnily enough, um, the first time we went in it was a place called Pomigliano and it was very much a basic aerodrome, and on the end of the runway was a local road, and when we went in the first time we saw a horse and cart [slight laugh] going across just as we were going in and we missed him fortunately. That’s one thing I remember. The other thing was that, you know, being young and, and flippant, we were only what? 19 or 20 years old. We all liked to smile at the local girls but they all had to be chaperoned and, er, they would always have a mother or father or a brother with them so we had to be very careful there. The other thing is that the fruit that we had never seen before, oh it was beautiful and, er, also, you wouldn’t believe it, but even then the, the Italians were flogging watches, you know, wrist watches, and we’d never seen, we’d never seen this sort of post-war stuff that the Italians were doing and, er, funnily enough, and I suppose it’s OK to say this, but our navigator had a girlfriend and he bought her a watch, and because of customs finding out, he put the watch inside a condom and then put it inside an oil filter in the aircraft until we’d got back to base. So whether, whether he got oil in the watch I don’t know but that was one of the funny things that happened. You were asking for unusual memories and that was one of them [slight laugh]
JM: Yes, gosh that’s — it would have been interesting to know whether he got it out in one piece or not undamaged. Yes and so you had those flights and then subsequent to that you had the Manna flights as well?
PW: Yes.
JM: And how many runs would you have done?
PW: I think we only did only about three.
JM: Right.
PW: Yes, and the first time we went over we had to come back because the airfield or the — I think it was a sports ground, where it had been arranged that we should go and drop, it was full of people and we realised that we would, we’d be bombing people with tins of flour and potatoes and things like that, so we came back and waited until the Germans cleared the thing and then we went in and dropped the food. We weren’t very accurate because we’d never been trained and one lot went into the greenhouses. That didn’t appeal to them very much. But you saw people on, on the roof tops waving sheets and clothes and things just to welcome us because we had to go in at ground level. And one thing that I remember one of the last trips we made was on the VE, er, VE night when there was to be a big celebration in the, in the mess, have a party to celebrate the end of the war, and we had flown so low that we evidently hit the branch of a tree because when we got back we found our bomb door, when we opened it, had a big scar in it and it was a piece of tree in it and so our ground crew were very upset because they were going to miss the party because they had to repair it overnight [slight laugh]. Isn’t it funny how you remember these little things.
JM: Yes, absolutely. And so were your trips there all to the same place in — when you were doing these drops?
PW: Yes.
JM: Which was where?
PW: It was Juvincourt in France and Pomigliano which is virtually I think Naples, in Italy. Yeah, they were was the only two places we went.
JM: The Manna drops I’m talking about.
PW: Oh, the Manna drops. No, I think, I think two were to The Hague. I think one was Amsterdam or Rotterdam. It’s very vague now, yes. I have a photograph of, of stuff being dropped whilst we were doing training in England. We did train for a few days to know how to do it and I’ve got a photograph if it’s any use to you.
JM: Yes, we’ll have a look at that afterwards. Thank you. That would be very interesting. And so then, um, with 115 I believe there were a couple of notable planes in that squadron. Were you ever, um, did you ever hear, were you ever close to any of those pl— notable planes or just —
PW: Well, it was an unusual squadron, um, because with the development of radar we were able to, we were able to go and bomb and have the bombs released from a ground station instead of ourselves and we were able then — I think our last trip, I think it was to Hamburg or somewhere and we were able to bomb half a mile from the front line British troops, and there was a bridge or something they wanted bombed and, and, er, I can tell you now. Can you just pause for a second? [pause] To The Hague and one to Rotterdam. That is food dropping. Then we went to Juvincourt to pick up prisoners, ex-prisoners or war, two trips there, and the last was to Brussels and then we went to Eng— to Europe after, to Italy, Operation Dodge it was called. We went to — oh, Bari but it was actually I think it was Pomigliano. Bari is, is the capital of — it’s on the Adriatic side of Italy. And, er, after that that was the end of our really useful work.
JM: But you were saying about [unclear] the, um, with the bombing with the — from the ground the — that’s using the G coordinates is it?
PW: It was called, um, it was called G2 I think. We flew in formation of three and, er, only one of the aircraft had the equipment on board and as soon as he dropped his bombs we, we dropped visually on his bombs. We saw his going. We knew they were due to go and as soon as he felt his go he pressed a button and we would release ours.
JM: Right and which —
PW: Hamburg I think it was.
JM: Hamburg. [background noise of pages turning] I’m trying to think back. ’45.
PW: Yes. 115. Just April ’45. Just one month before the end of the war. ‘Intense accurate heavy flak,’ I notice here. So that was at Bremen, not Hamburg, I beg your pardon.
JM: Right.
PW: Bremen and we were damaged by flak. It was very, very accurate. But sometimes, you know, you’d feel a bump then — well we didn’t knew where it came from but when you got back home you might find a few holes in your fuselage and, er, on one occasion, it’s rather amusing, the only bloke who got damaged was our bomb aimer and he got, he got damaged. He got a piece of shrapnel into his bottom [slight laugh], not seriously, but he was the only one who was hurt. But frostbite was a problem for the gunners and that was what put me into hospital, um, when they went off with another gunner. It was at Ludford Magna. I’d got a lot pain. It wasn’t severe but it was enough to stop me because you had to be one hundred per cent fit before they’d allow you to fly. If there was anything slightly wrong with you they used one of the spares to take your place. Particularly important was the breathing because, you see, up at above ten thousand feet you had to go onto oxygen, and one of the reasons why the losses were so great with rear gunners was it took so long to get out of a turret, if you had to get out quickly, because if he was on oxygen he’d have to disconnect, then find a bottle of, a bottle of portable oxygen, connect that up then [emphasis] get out of his — and what? He had four pairs of gloves on and, and trying to get out was hopeless. I would say two or three minutes at the earliest he could need to try to get out a rear turret and in the meantime, of course, by then it could be too late. And on that trip to Augsburg that I mentioned we got hit, as well as damaging our hydraulics, er, the bottom floor of the aircraft was blown out and the rear door, which we used for getting in and out of it, was blown out as well so how we, how we got back I don’t know to this day. And he, and Sergeant Roy Dixon, our pilot, he was all of twenty years old. You know, when you think of it —
JM: Amazing, amazing.
PW: So I, so I have a lucky star.
JM: You have indeed and were you a mid-upper gunner most of the time?
PW: Most of the time I was mid upper, on a few trips I was rear gunner. Most of the time I was mid- upper, yes, yes.
JM: So you would have been able to —
PW: Oh that’s an easier place to get in and out of. It doesn’t quite get so bitterly cold because you got a little bit of heat coming back. The people at the front were warmed by the engines. They had a warming system and so forth but the, the rear gunner was the coldest of all.
JM: That’s right.
PW: And I might mention one of the big losses was that the Germans introduced a very clever idea, instead of firing from wing guns, they put a forty millimetre cannon into the fuselage pointing upwards, forty-five degrees, and they would come up underneath and fire at us, and a forty mill— cannon you only need a few things to set the petrol on fire and that would be the end of the aircraft but, you see, we couldn’t see them because we couldn’t look down. The Americans had a belly gunner but we didn’t. We had nothing. We were blind. That’s right.
JM: So that’s why quite a lot of losses were due to that experience.
PW: Yes.
JM: Yes and with, um, your crew after the war did you maintain contact?
PW: No, no. Well you see we came out to Australia two years after I retired from the — well I was demobbed from the RAF and, er, they were all scattered all over the place. We sent Christmas cards but they eventually disappeared. I never kept up after I left, left England in May ’49.
JM: May ’49.
PW: With a three month old baby.
JM: Right. OK.
PW: And when we got on board, on board the migrant ship, the people at the top of the gangway they said, ‘OK Mr Watson you go down that end of the ship and Mrs Watson and the baby you go up that end.’ So three weeks of the trip we were separated. Of course we met during the day but at night — but of course instead of two people in the cabin we had four because they were — anyway we were very lucky to have got that migrant ship, very lucky.
JM: And that was May ’49, so coming, stepping back a little bit, so you were demobbed in, um, ’47 so between, er, from the time you were demobbed did you work or —
PW: Yes, I went back to the company that was training me as an engineer.
JM: Where was that?
PW: In Cardiff.
JM: Cardiff right.
PW: Yes and [slight laugh] I was earning, I was earning five shillings a week, would you believe it. It’s one of those things, like an apprenticeship. I think they called it an articled pupillage? Anyhow, my boss was a wonderful man because in the meantime I had fallen in love with a lovely girl and wanted to get married but on going back to getting back to getting fifteen shillings a week or five shillings a week I couldn’t do that and he smiled at me and said, ‘Look, you get married and I’ll see that you’re alright.’ And he did [slight laugh] and I was with that girl for fifty-eight years and she died in 2004.
JM: Right, right.
PW: Yes and her best friend had lost her husband, and she and her late husband, and Audrey my wife and I had been friends for forty years, and when Audrey died Ruth, the other, the widow, and I got together and we’re together now. And it’s been twelve very happy years.
JM: Very good.
PW: And that’s her there.
JW: That’s her there. That’s right. And so you got married and then made the decision to come to Australia. What prompted that decision?
PW: Er, well first of all I had developed asthma. I’d had a little bit of it as a kid but it came, it came back as a post-war thing I think and somebody said, ‘Why don’t you go to a warm climate?’ Not, not only that I was in an industry that was going to be nationalised, and everyone was very depressed, and even in 1949 rationing was still on. You still had to ration petrol and that sort of thing. And Audrey, my wife, had an uncle, who was very prominent in Australia, and he came to London on a conference and while he was there he came down to see his sister, who was my — was Audrey’s mother, and said, ‘Look if you come to Australia I can assure you we can get you a job and we need new migrants.’ That’s how it all started and never looked back.
JM: Never looked back. No, so obviously —
PW: And our three-month old baby is now sixty-seven and we produced as Aussie but she died in a car accident when she was sixteen. It’s one of those awful things that you have to put up with. So that’s my story as an air gunner.
JM: Yes and that’s — and when you came, when you migrated did you come here to Sidney?
PW: No, sorry, we migrated to Perth.
JM: Perth right.
PW: Yes. We were there for seven years and then I got a job with Caltex Oil as an engineer and I was there for thirty-two years. Not in Perth but a couple of years after I joined them, er, they promoted me to a manager of an installation in Adelaide, and so we moved to Adelaide and we were there for ten years, and after penny died ( she was killed in Adelaide) the company said, ‘Why don’t you come to Sidney and start again.’ And my wife was a very plucky mother and she was fretting terribly and though she resisted coming she knew it was the best thing to do, so we did it, and that was 1967 and we’ve been here ever since.
JM: And did you come here to Contagh or — straight away?
PW: No we were three months in — the company had a flat in Martin Place, Martin, no not Martin. Oh I forget the name of it. Anyhow, Win—
JM: Oh, OK.
PW: And we were there —
JM: Market Street.
PW: Market Street. That’s it, yes. Right opposite the park.
JM: A brilliant park there.
PW: Yes and whilst we were there Audrey was looking for a place. She was the searcher for a place to come and live and she was offered this place and it had been on the market for five months because, as you can appreciate, young people can’t afford to live here and old people don’t want it because it’s so steep but at the time you buy you never think you’re going to get old, do you? So anyhow we bought this place for, would you believe, thirty-five thousand dollars [laugh] but that’s how things were.
JM: That’s how things were back then. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right, yes. So right and as I say — well you just stayed with Caltex through to, until you finished?
PW: Well, I was sort of given a package. When computers came in and they wanted to get rid of numbers and all the oldies, I was fifty-nine by then, they said, ‘Would you please go.’ Sort of thing.
PW: So I retired from there and I started a business of my own which I’m still running.
JM: Oh OK, right. Oh very good, very good, and that’s just a sort of consultancy business I presume?
PW: Yes, yes. It’s to do with finance broking, yes, but for twelve years, the first twelve years after I retired, I actually had a pump agency for an American company and I eventually sold that and with the proceeds I started a broking company ,which I’m still running.
JM: Still running. Goodness me. And going right back to the very beginning when you enlisted, way back in ’43, what was the decision, was there any decision in particular that directed you to Air Force rather than Navy or Army?
PW: Yes, yes. I’d always, you know, wanted to fly and so you vol— put your name down as a volunteer and I guess they kept your name on until you were old enough to be called up. And, and they said, ‘Are you still keen?’ And I said, ‘yes’ and I went up to Birmingham for a test, a medical test, and back to Cardiff and they said, ‘You’re fit enough. We’ll call you up next week.’ And they did [laugh]. It was a great disappointed when we were told we had no choice.
JM: To be an air gunner.
PW: Nobody wanted to be an air gunner. They called it the lowest form of animal life in air crew. But still there we are.
JM: And what — you said you’d always wanted to fly. What was the attraction, of just being —
PW: Well I think, um, the Battle of Britain and the success of our, of our planes then inspired young people like myself and, you know, you were going through the romantic age of what do you want to be when you know you’ve got to go? And Air Force was more appealing than the Army or the Navy. Yes, my sister went into the Navy. Ruth, my partner, she was a WREN. Yes, so we were all in it. And, er, actually we were, before that, in 1941, it’s the only time that Cardiff ever got bombed badly. A few times, I remember there was one bad raid and I was stuck in Cardiff while the raid was on but it was OK. But then I had to walk back to my little village, which was seven miles away, in the dark because the power, all the power had gone off. When I got there I found all the windows and doors of my house had been blown in and what had happened was that a stray bomb, because I mean who would want to bomb a little village, a stray bomb the Germans had dropped about a hundred yards on the other side of the road, on the golf course that we faced, and it had blew it all in but my family had gone to the back of the house into an air raid shelter that they had there and they survived. But we had to evac— evacuate our house because it was unliveable until it was repaired. So we went down to a place called Llanelli, which is about fifty or hundred miles west of there, put up with some friends and eventually got back into our house.
JM: Right. And your family had built the air raid shelter in the garden?
PW: They actually converted the back veranda with steel and stuff and, you know, and when the raid was on it as only my mum and my sister. I was in Cardiff, and my eldest sister, and my elder sister sorry, and my two sisters and my mother and another cousin, who was expecting a baby, but she lived in London and came back to Cardiff, came down to Cardiff to have her baby because she thought it was safer and she ran into — but they survived.
PM: Yes, yes but even in Cardiff though and out, and I appreciate that you’re saying your village was seven miles out of Cardiff, but even then the, um, the normal procedure was to build some sort of — at that time was to build an air — some sort of shelter?
PW: Something safe. I think the main thing was with those sort of things was that falling beams from your house or your roof. You know, I mean, you hear of people hiding under the dining room table because that was protected but, um, and some people put an air raid shelter in their, in their garden, and the Government provided a galvanised iron sort of thing. It was a very easy thing to do but it was the safe, the safest thing you could do.
JM: Mm, yes. So that would have — that was just another sort of —
PW: And it was the only bomb that had ever dropped in the village. Because, you know, I would imagine the like, having the experience later on, you sometimes had the odd bomb that didn’t drop off and you went and released it and it didn’t matter where it fell so long as you got rid of it. So I think that’s probably what happened. But of course the local press said that they were after the, you know, they put all the experienced people have said, ‘Oh yes, well they knew something we didn’t.’ It was wonderful.
JM: Oh dear yes, yes, but as you say that was the only time that Cardiff was actually —
PW: Heavily, severely bombed as a city. Other times it had bits and pieces blown, er, thrown at it but this was the Baedeker [?] raid but it wasn’t successful in the sense that it wasn’t concentrated, it was spread out, but what had happened was that they — it had effected the power supply and everything was in dark and, you know, in January that’s really dark and when I had to walk home seven miles in complete darkness —
JM: And that was January ’43 was it or ‘42?
PW: ’43,
JM: ’43, yes.
PW: Sorry no, ’41, yeah, two years before I went — I was only a school boy.
JM: Right, right, so ’41. Mm, gosh. So that was a very, much of a little bit of a taste of what London was experiencing and all the other cities in England , so —
PW: Yes, yes. I think what had happened was that they stopped bombing London. I think they thought they couldn’t do any more with London and I think they were going to concentrate on shipping ports to try and starve England. That was — they really wanted to starve us into submission, you see, with their U-boats and they were very successful and very close to succeeding I think at times. But anyhow Cardiff is a port, you see. Cardiff is very much like Newport, our Newport here. They produce steel, they produce coal and about the same size but there you are.
JM: Yes, yes. That’s right. Yes, and in terms — you mentioned you didn’t maintain any contacts, er, long term ongoing contacts with your former crew members.
PW: No.
JM: Did you, were you aware of any associations, um, to link up with, you know, in Australia here at any time? Did you became a member of RSL or join in and then subsequently — about the only other organisation would have been the Odd Bods Association because you came here to Sidney in ‘67 I think so —
PW: Oh I’d been in the RSL right from day one and of course I joined 460 Squadron old boys here because although I didn’t operate from 460 I was sent to the Squadron and we used their aircraft for training on this thing called Village Inn. Yes, and actually for me it was six months of very easy living because I didn’t have to fly on operations. By then I was an officer and you were in — and Binbrook was a peacetime built ‘drome so the facilities were very, very good.
JM: Yes, so that was sort of a, a far more peaceful, less stressful, sort of period of time for you rather than the stress of the tour?
PW: Oh there was no stress at all whatsoever. In fact it was very easy living. That was the intention to try and defuse you and, you know, so — by the way my second pilot, who I joined after the raid when Roy Dixon was killed, we kept an association afterwards and he, he left Bomber Command and went into the Fleet Air Arm, and finally he was retired, and he came to my wedding in 1946, er, and but then he went out to North Africa doing something with the shipping company. We kept on for a little while but we’ve lost — I’d have liked to have kept — I regret now that I didn’t.
JM: But communication back then is not what it is today.
PW: No, I think that’s right.
JM: I mean between — only being able to post letters that took weeks to, to get anywhere and you couldn’t make phone calls back then because they cost so much money between Australia and, and the UK and, er, not everyone had a phone back then you know so —
PW: But I always felt though I’d like to have kept in touch with Roy Dixon’s family, you know, but, um, I mean I was — although I was in hospital I wasn’t serious in hospital but I was just not fit enough for flying because of this frostbite thing but, um, when Roy was killed in Norfolk he was able to be buried back in his home, near Doncaster I think it was, and but they wouldn’t allow me to go to his funeral because of the, ‘Oh, why you? Why are you alive and my son is dead?’ Sort of thing. I can understand that and of course you also had the problem with people who couldn’t take, couldn’t take it and they refused to fly after their first two or three missions. Their nerves went. And they were very, very severley treated by the Air Force. They were branded LMF, called lack of moral fibre, and they were sent off nasty jobs and got rid of.
JM: Very difficult times.
PW: Oh very difficult. I think fear, fear kept you together and, and doing the right thing by your mates, you know, kept you together.
JM: And I think, from what I understand, that’s what they used that glue to keep those crews together to, to ensure that moral support within the crew all the time.
PW: Well, one of the things that I haven’t mentioned but it is significant is, how do you choose your crew? And the simple answer is that, er, when you were, when you were — during training and you’d finished, everyone was ready to be put together as a crew, they put you all into a hangar one afternoon and there was probably hundreds of us, after we’d finished our training, the pilots, navigators, bomb aimers and so on and they said, ‘Listen boys you’ve got to form yourself into crews. Go and have a yarn with each other and see if you can match up friendships.’ And that’s all it was and it was the most successful system the Air Force had ever used because you were then with people who’d picked you or you picked them and, you mean, you might see one bloke and say, ‘I like that bloke. I wonder if he needs an air gunner.’ Or a pilot might say, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ If he liked the look of you and I said, ‘No’ or ‘Yes’ and that’s how it went, and you ended up with seven crew, seven members of the crew. One or two of them might have been officers but it didn’t matter. You were all crew together.
JM: Yes, that’s an interesting approach to the way —
PW: Some didn’t like it. It was a very sensible thing to do.
JM: Yes, well I guess it was from the point of view that they knew they were going to keep the crews together so it was important for the crews to each like each other.
PW: Yes, exactly, yeah. And that also built a camaraderie I suppose so you never let your crew down. You were always aware that without you they could be in trouble and each one, perhaps less with wireless operators and bomb aimers, but with pilots and navigators — well, if they didn’t have a good navigator you were in trouble because you’d get picked off. If you didn’t have a good air gunners who picked up enemy aircraft when you should be shooting at him, you know, you realise how important each job was. And, er, and also I found that we were attacked many times but if they find out that you, if you fired at them quickly they would leave you alone because it was awful for them to come in from behind with — you’ve got four guns in the rear turret and two in the mid-upper and you’re firing bout twelve rounds a minute and he’s got to fly into that to shoot at you so he never came in behind you, he came in on a curve. Now, if, if you saw him coming in on a curve and you timed it right and then you turned the same way as he was going he couldn’t get around to shoot you, so if you, if you kept your nerve and did the corkscrew at the right time he’d never get you. Interesting.
JM: Very interesting.
PW: But of course doing a corkscrew when you’re in several hundred aircraft, right?
JM: It was a little bit difficult.
PW: Collision was awful.
JM: Yes. Again comes back to the skill of the pilot and to the lesser extent the navigator.
PW: And more often as not he still had his load on board, his bombs. Never mind. I don’t know how many tons, I suppose four or five tons. I’ve no idea but it was a very heavy load.
JM: It was a very heavy load to take but Lancasters and Hallies were all carrying at that time.
PW: Your husband would be on Hallies I would think?
JM: Not my husband, my father.
PW: Pardon.
JM: My father.
PW: Your father rather.
JM: On Hallies yes. So, yes. So that’s some amazing memories that you’ve shared with me now. I really appreciate your time and, um, your thoughts.
PW: Well, thank you very much.
JM: But there’s probably time to wrap up at this stage. I presume there’s nothing else that you, no particular thoughts that you want to mention. Any other things that you — you mention you do speeches for Probus Clubs so was there anything from those speeches we haven’t covered or —
PW: No I think what we’ve covered is what, what formed my thing. A lot of people ask questions because they had parents or uncles or brothers who said, ‘Did you know Sergeant Jones, so and so.’ You know. But it was a big force, the bomber force, we didn’t — but there we are. I’ve had a very lucky life, very lucky, and lucky in that sense, you know, but and also I was one of the luckiest — we’re not recording now are we?
PM: Yes.
PW: Oh. Well it doesn’t matter but, er, one of the fortunate things was that during the depression of 1935 to ‘38, ‘39 my father retained his job, which was pretty good in those days, which enabled me to be given a decent education and that’s held me in good stead all my life. And that’s why I, one felt that with the education that I had, to have to be an air gunner was a bit degrading because, you know, we were all pipe-dreaming at the time about it. As I said before we wanted to fly Spitfires, the glamour of that, being shot at [laugh].
JM: Yes, indeed, indeed.
PW: But we made wonderful friendships and some of the bravery of some of those fellas was quite incredible. You’ve probably read about it all.
JM: Did any of the — your pilot wasn’t awarded any, um, given any award for bringing that plane home in the way he did?
PW: Yes. He was awarded the DFM but he didn’t know it until he died, you know, when he died it was the same day that his commission came through. So he got the DFM not the DFC. DFM is for non-commissioned, DFC was for commissioned. I got a Polish, Polish award. I forget what it was called now, something, er, but I never bothered with it but it was just some sort of service medal, you know, but there you are.
JM: Very good. Aright well I think we’ll wrap it up if you’re happy with that?
PW: Yes. What’s the time?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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AWatsonPHC170123, PWatsonPHC1701
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Watson
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:05:04 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Jean Macartney
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-23
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Watson was born in South Wales and joined the Royal Air Force in 1943. He wanted to be a pilot but there was a surplus of pilots so he became an air gunner. He crewed-up and flew with 101 Squadron initially, a special duties squadron, and he explains they took an extra crew member who had radio equipment, Airborne Cigar, to interfere with German systems. He describes the first two flights being memorable; on the first night his aircraft was shot by a Focke-Wulf. On the second night, during a bombing trip to Schweinfurt the aircraft was coned by searchlights and was badly damaged by a shell and bomb being dropped from above. He also describes the squadron’s role in D-Day. He later transferred to 300 squadron, a Polish Squadron, to help train the Polish crews. He completed 33 operations. He describes the Operation Manna drops and Operation Exodus, picking up prisoners of war. He was eventually de-mobbed in 1947, by which time he was a Flight Lieutenant gunnery leader. He talks about the discomforts of flying but also the camaraderie of the crews and his distress at losing a crew. They didn’t return when they went on a flight without him. After being de-mobbed Peter returned to a job in engineering but emigrated to Australia in 1949 with his wife and baby.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Kiel Canal
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
101 Squadron
115 Squadron
15 Squadron
300 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
crewing up
fear
Fw 190
Gee
grief
military ethos
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
radar
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wyton
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/246/3392/PDenverI1704.2.jpg
333052530a5ff31f1299a9657b634587
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/246/3392/ADenverI170221.2.mp3
9763d77aca3da4289606b069f644e294
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Denver, Ian
Ian Denver
I Denver
Description
An account of the resource
Five items, Collection concerns Ian Denver (422844 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains an oral history interview, extracts from his log book and photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ian Denver and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Denver, I
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JP: We’ll just start the interview now. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer — myself. Miss Jean MacCartney.
ID: Is this the one that they’re building out at Louth.
JP: Lincoln.
ID: Lincoln.
JP: Yes.
ID: Well — near Louth.
JP: Yes. That’s right. And the interviewee is Mr Ian Denver. The interview is taking place at Mr Denver’s home in Robina in Queensland on the 21st of February 2017.
ID: Yeah.
JP: Also present is Mr Denver’s daughter — Louise. Ok. Ian. We’ll start right back at the beginning. July 1923. And I believe you were born in Maitland.
ID: That’s right.
JP: And you spent most of your early years up until the intermediate certificate in Maitland. Is that right?
ID: I went to high school in Maitland ‘til I then did my leaving certificate.
JP: Leaving certificate.
ID: But then I finished early. Right.
JP: Yes.
ID: In [pause] I said finished early. I wasn’t allowed to go into the air force ‘til I was eighteen.
JP: No.
ID: And I did my leaving at seventeen.
JP: Seventeen. Yes. Well just tell me a little bit about your time in Maitland because without being too personal I believe you were actually born as Ian Deramore - Denver.
ID: That’s true.
JP: And you’ve, you’ve dropped the —
ID: Yeah.
JP: The first part of —
ID: I think my father just adopted the word Deramore because he liked it. Also, he, he was very badly wounded Gallipoli and he spent a lot of time in hospital in London and he met a lady who was very kind to him and she lived just off the edge of the estate that was Lord Deramore’s estate which is at a place called Acomb in York. Just out of York itself and [pause] well that was it. After the war of course he did all sorts of things. And he was, initially he was constantly in and out of hospital because he was hit here. Went in there and out the other side and his bleeding internally was very bad.
JP: Right. And so —
ID: Louise. Get me my hearing aids and I’ll see if —
LD: That would be a very good idea. Well done dad.
JP: Dad. Ok. Well we’ll pause for a minute while you —
ID: They should be in there.
[recording paused]
JP: Ok. We’re resuming now. Ian’s now got his hearing aids in so that makes it a little bit easier for him. So, we were just talking about your father and his war injuries and your time when you were at Maitland and I think I’ve seen something that when you, when you were a young boy or in your, at school and that you were involved in a lot of sports and competition. Would you like to tell me a little bit about those? You were in diving and —
ID: Well I did —
JP: Athletics.
ID: On the swimming, diving side there was a fellow named Ron Tubman whom was called —my son Michael that was killed in an accident. We named him after Ron Tubman. Ok. Who came from Maitland. Went to the same school same as me. The other pilot Geoff Jones who was called Michael Geoffrey then, but Geoff was from Pymble. Came out of Sydney. Nothing much to tell you about as far as sports are concerned.
JP: Did you compete in a lot of competitions?
ID: Well, yes and no. Yes, in that I competed a lot but I didn’t win that much, you know. I was a bit too small to compete for some of the things. But in the diving for example Ron and I were always competing against each other to see who would, well to see who would win the school diving championship. That sort of thing. As far as cricket and football was concerned rugby league it was. We played that. And I suppose my most exciting period was the last game I had with the school. We played the combined Newcastle High Schools. And, in the process I scored all the points which happened to be —I can’t to remember the numbers. Two tries and four, four goals and it came to about sixteen points or so. But the teacher didn’t like my dad so instead of covering it in the school magazine or anywhere he just ignored it. Bill Bates was his name.
JP: That’s unfortunate.
ID: Yeah. I thought so too because I didn’t really — I worked hard.
JP: Yes.
ID: And I tried hard and did well.
JP: That’s right and that’s an outstanding result
ID: Yeah.
JP: To beat the other team.
ID: And we won —
JP: That’s right. That’s right.
ID: The Newcastle area which in those days included [unclear ] and everywhere and we competed against them.
JP: Yes. And —
LD: And the reason that Ron is important is that dad went to the war with Ron.
JP: With Ron. Yes. I know. That’s right. Yes. And your father, I know he was not well but is —he was doing some editing of the local paper at that time as well. Is that right?
ID: Yes. He —he was the sports editor for the Maitland Mercury and was the editor of a magazine called Golfing Australia.
JP: Oh right.
ID: So, he did a fair amount of writing. He was a very good writer, my father. And I can see him today sitting at a butcher’s table we used to call it. He’d sit at the butchers table and rip of this bunch of paper and word after word and it was given to me. I would get it typed.
JP: That’s and and so did he write up that? Your match in the local paper then so that you at least had some coverage.
ID: Yeah. Well he would then send it to the local paper but then he would edit it himself too. So he wasn’t only writing it. He was editing it.
JP: Yes. That’s right.
ID: But a big problem was that his wounding. There was a hospital at Sydney, a slight royal, Randwick anyhow and it was a Repat hospital at Randwick.
JP: Yep.
ID: And we’d go down there and see him occasionally. But he’d often be two or three months at a time in hospital. So, we had a fair period without a father.
JP: Father.
ID: Supervising and [lying up?] so everything was left to my mother.
JP: Mother.
ID: And we had three boys and a girl.
JP: Goodness. And she, she wasn’t working, was she? She was —
ID: Well in those days women really didn’t work.
JP: Really didn’t work. No. That’s right.
ID: And she had four kids to look after anyway.
JP: Look after.
ID: And the only income a lot of the time was a pension that he got from his war wound. Which we lived on. Sometimes for years.
LD: So, we’re talking 1920s. The end of the twenties and early thirties here.
ID: About 1930 there.
JP: Yeah.
ID: I was seven then.
JP: Yes. That’s right. And then of course then the Depression came, years came along. So you had, you as a family had to go through that. So, you were still in Maitland during the Depression years.
ID: Well, my father and mother and my sister June —they all moved to Sydney. Mainly for dad to get a job. He was offered a good job down at Sydney. And because I had two years or so to go to do my leaving certificate I stayed on in Maitland. Living with my grandparents and went to school there.
JP: Right. And so, then they were living in Sydney. You were in Maitland. You finished your leaving certificate and then at the end of that I think you then went because you was too young to go in the air force at that stage.
ID: That’s right. Yeah.
JP: You went into the bank.
ID: You had to be eighteen.
JP: Eighteen. That’s right. But you also I think were in Air Training Corps. Had you joined the air training corps?
ID: Yes.
JP: Yes.
ID: The ATC.
JP: And what, what age did you join the Air Training Corps?
ID: Quite young. You know. Maybe I was only about thirteen or something like that. I was always interested in flying. The first time I saw a plane fly was a Lockheed Electra that came out to Australia and came up to Newcastle and was putting on exhibitions at Newcastle. And so, we went to Newcastle Airport and had a look at that.
JP: Good.
ID: But not my dad or my mum or anybody in the family didn’t particularly encouraged me to go into the services.
JP: No.
ID: My elder brother Peter had already been through the initial campaigns in Libya. In Benghazi. And fought the rear — guard action in Greece and Crete and so on. And then as soon as I turned eighteen the bank had been opposing it but as soon as I turned eighteen I said, ‘I’m going.’
JP: Going. And what, what did you learn? Any skills in the Air Training Corps that gave you, you felt an advantage of initial training for the air force when you came into that?
ID: I — when I [pause] when I was in the ATC.
JP: C .
ID: We went through things like the theory of flight at that time so that by the time I actually did get in to the air force I was fairly well off. You know, what went on in aeroplanes and engines and hydraulics and so on.
JP: And did you actually get taken up in a flight at all when you were in the ATC? Did you do any flights whatsoever? Or they just left you on the ground and got you to do all the theory.
ID: I did have a flight. But I think it was a Rapide or something. But it was, you know, as a passenger, it wasn’t –
JP: Oh yes. Yes. Just as a sort of a joy flight type thing. Yeah.
ID: Just to have a look and see what goes on.
LD: How old were you when you went up in the Rapide?
ID: How old was I? Well I’d been really keen when I was about sixteen.
JP: Right.
ID: And from then on it was just a matter of waiting ‘til I got eighteen because the war started and I wasn’t allowed to go into the war until I turned eighteen.
JP: Eighteen.
LD: So, this was 1941.
JP: Well he enlisted, he enlisted in May 1942. In Sydney. You went down to Sydney because obviously your parents were still there in Sydney so —
ID: Yeah, they went down to Sydney and stayed there.
JP: Yes. That’s right.
ID: And lived in Potts Point.
JP: Potts Point. Yes. Now, one thing one other thing before we move into what was your initial training were you — when the Japanese mini subs came into Sydney harbour were you in Sydney with your parents at that stage or were you up in Maitland still?
ID: When the submarines — the Japanese submarines came in?
JP: Yeah.
ID: No. As a matter of fact I was in Sydney.
JP: You were in Sydney.
ID: They went up and we lived only a hundred yards or so from where the bombing took place.
JP: So, did you, were you at home at the time? Did you feel the —any, you know. Reverberations.
ID: You didn’t give you any news in those days.
JP: No. But I just —
ID: You found out in the newspaper what happened.
JP: Yes. But you — but you didn’t feel, there was no vibration from the bombs.
ID: No.
JP: No. No. No. Or any noise. You didn’t hear any noise.
ID: No. It was night time.
JP: Night time.
ID: And also, I don’t, I don’t think they bombed as such.
JP: No.
ID: They just fired a few guns and went off. It was a submarine.
JP: Submarines.
ID: Japanese submarines.
JP: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Ok well we’ll move along now to your enlistment and you did your initial. Where did you do your initial training?
ID: In Bradfield Park.
JP: Bradfield Park. Right. And then when when did you start your flying?
ID: Not [pause] about three or four months later. What actually happened was that they enrolled too many people and they couldn’t place them all, so we had no choice but to — you either get out of the air force or you wait ‘til we can find room for you. And then I was made, as was quite a few other people who were with me, made an aircrew guards they were called. And I was placed in Richmond. So, I spent about four months or so out at Richmond. Which suited me because Richmond was, you know, in Sydney and I could get into town without any real trouble. But —
JP: So, if you —
ID: My father was very much involved in the war activities as such. He started, or helped to start the Gallipoli Legion of Anzacs which was a club that was formed under the Harbour Bridge at Milson’s Point there. That’s gone. Since gone. But he was the founding secretary.
JP: Secretary.
ID: And I think president. Ran about two or three jobs.
JP: Right.
ID: But he was a very good bloke my father.
JP: Sounds like it. To be so —
ID: And he was very very proud of any kind of service that we’d done.
JP: Done. Yes.
ID: And my elder brother had a very tough time, you know. And yet he got out and went up to Darwin and he was bombed in Darwin and then they sent him from there to train in Queensland and on to New Guinea.
JP: Gosh.
ID: And he fought hand to hand battles against the Japanese.
JP: Japanese. Up on Kokoda.
ID: Yeah and my younger brother joined the navy. And he was in the [pause] I don’t know [ASDE?] it was called. Anti—submarine warfare. He was in that section. He was an able seaman.
JP: Right.
ID: And he did a good job.
JP: Job.
ID: And they liked him, and he was earmarked for future promotion but the war ended before they got around to —
JP: Ended.
ID: He was younger than me.
JP: Ok. Let’s go back to your that your first flying and when you were getting your wings and that time. Were — you were doing some flying down around Urana. The Rock. And there was —
ID: The rock near Uranquinty.
JP: Uranquinty yes because you were doing your flying. That was where you were doing your —
ID: That was where I got my wings.
JP: Your wings. Yeah.
ID: In Nerrandera on Tiger Moths.
JP: Yes.
ID: And then when I did that initial flying training then switched to Uranquinty.
JP: Uranquinty.
ID: To Wirraways which —
JP: Wirraways. Yes.
ID: I used to land. That’s all we had as far as fighters, or fighter bombers were concerned.
JP: Yeah.
ID: So, I was getting ready to go on those and then all of a sudden there was a demand for pilots in England and so I was allowed to transfer and went across to the UK.
JP: Yeah. Did you have some little near miss at one time?
ID: Some bit of what?
JP: A bit of a near miss when you were doing one of your training flights down near The Rock.
ID: Well I had one experience which I’ve not forgotten was that The Rock sticks up. Not like Ayers Rock. Not nearly as big.
JP: Not as big but it still sticks up. That’s right.
ID: Sticks up and gets in the way and also a wind came across from the south west and it made a wave and I remember very well even to this day as you were climbing towards The Rock instead of going up you weren’t. You were coming down and you had no control. So, I was able to very luckily to well luckily and I suppose well trained and —
JP: Skilled.
ID: To do a hard turn and get away out of that wave.
JP: And so —
ID: That was one of the few experiences I had at the time in Australia. I had many more in the UK.
JP: In the UK. Which we’ll come to very shortly. In fact, yes, we’ll go then. We’ll start getting there. So, you then — you got — they said they needed pilots over in the UK so you went up to Brisbane and you sailed out of Brisbane. Is that right?
ID: Yes. We sailed out of Brisbane.
JP: When was — when?
ID: Through the Panama Canal.
JP: Yes. When did you leave Brisbane? Do you remember?
ID: Well not the day but —
JP: No. But roughly.
ID: Roughly it would have been I went in to the air force 1942.
JP: Two.
ID: I was being trained in 1943.
JP: So it was in —
ID: So somewhere around Christmas 1942.
JP: Ok. And so you went through to the, through the Panama which would have been an interesting experience.
ID: It was very exciting. I’ve never seen anything so green.
JP: Yeah.
ID: I remember it today. You look out there and it’s not this type of green which is tinges of brown. This was pure green. Jungle green. And it was very interesting. Very exciting. I enjoyed it. And then we sailed through steam through the Caribbean. We didn’t stop in any particular place but we did pull over outside Havana.
JP: Right.
ID: And for a very short period.
JP: Were you able to disembark at all or you had to stay on board all the time?
ID: On there we stayed on board. And then when we went up to New York and when I got to New York we were only supposed to be there about two weeks or so and what in actual fact happened was we instead of going straight across the Atlantic the ship we were supposed to be going on was sunk. So, we were told that you’d better stay here and —do you know New York at all?
JP: No. I’ve not, not been to New York.
ID: Yeah well —
JP: I’ve only been to the west coast. Not the east coast.
ID: North of New York was an HMS British navy base and they used that to house us until a ship would be available to take us across the Atlantic and then when that ship became available because I’d trained as a pilot, as a fighter pilot, they presumed that I had good eyesight and so we stood, we did a period all the way across the Atlantic on submarine watch.
JP: Up on the bridge.
ID: Up on the bridge.
JP: Oh, my goodness.
LD: Wow.
ID: It was very interesting. Very exciting. We landed in Glasgow. The Clyde. On the Clyde and then from Glasgow we hopped on a train.
JP: Train.
ID: The train took us. We were on our way to Bournemouth.
JP: Right.
ID: But Bournemouth was bombed.
JP: Bombed. Yeah.
ID: So instead of switching us, leaving us at Bournemouth they switched us across to Brighton.
JP: Brighton.
ID: And it was at Brighton then that I was chosen to do multi engine training. And I was good to go on Oxfords. Airspeed Oxfords. And the first place I went to was at [pause] I’m not sure if I can remember the names and getting them correct. Anyhow, we went up around the Doncaster area.
JP: Yeah.
ID: And Doncaster then. This was a satellite. A training satellite. And we were sent out to [unclear] and I was based at a satellite station called Snitterfield which was really only about ten miles from Shakespeare’s country.
JP: Oh, right yes.
ID: Near Stratford on Avon.
JP: Yes.
ID: So we were there and when this was — by now it was winter and it was very very hard to get any training done because of weather conditions.
JP: Weather conditions were —
ID: Weather conditions. And I had one or two frights there. Ran into barrage balloon there one time. found out how easy that was. I didn’t. Thank God.
JP: And so this is what? Only a two, this is a two engine plane at this stage or four?
ID: Two engine.
JP: Two engines. And how many crew were — you hadn’t, you were all just, were you just pilot and one other or —
ID: We were just training to be pilots.
JP: Pilots. Yeah. Pilot and instructor basically.
ID: I was, I would have been the trainee pilot.
JP: Pilot.
ID: And there would be an instructor. And he was a fully qualified pilot.
JP: Fully qualified. Yeah. Ok and was that what a couple or three or four weeks. A couple of months. What? Roughly. Just roughly what time frame do you think?
ID: Well I would say roughly about three to four months.
JP: Three or four months.
ID: Simply because it was so —
JP: Because the weather conditions were slowing the training down.
ID: It was bad. It wasn’t good for training.
LD: What was the flight? What was the plane?
ID: It was an Airspeed Oxford is was called.
JP: Oh the Oxford. Yeah. Yeah. And ok so from there where — is that when where did you go from that? Did you then go to 625 or did you do another — oh you probably did another conversion in between that.
ID: No I —
JP: Or an OTU. An OTU.
ID: We went from —this was initial training.
JP: Training yeah. So you had to go, you had to do an OTU.
ID: An OTU.
JP: Yeah.
ID: And the OTU I went to was near Doncaster.
JP: Yeah.
ID: Finningley.
JP: Right.
ID: And then they put us into a base at Finningley just along the road from the Robin Hood’s trees.
JP: Trees [laughs] Shakespeare. Robin Hood. Yeah.
ID: So we did our training there with Wimpies we called them. Wellington was a difficult aircraft. It was a geotetic aircraft which was the design of the fuselage but it meant the control was hard. You know you put the flap down and you get power. Respond much more radically then you would think it would. Anyhow, the point is we went to OTU and I got through OTU ok. And went then, went from there to Halifaxes.
JP: Right.
ID: The Halifaxes were at the Doncaster area.
JP: Right.
ID: A place called Sandtoft. We called —
JP: Right. So this is like a conversion course then.
ID: Yeah. We called it Prangtoft.
JP: Oh I see. Right. Right. Obviously there’s a story or two here. Yes.
ID: The engines were underpowered for the aircraft so it wasn’t —
JP: Particularly the earlier. I assume this was an earlier Halifax. The later Halifaxes were a bit better but the early Halifaxes were, yeah.
ID: But the Halifax, later on Halifaxes with Hercules engines was a good aircraft. Very good aircraft.
JP: So what sort of little stories come to light at this time? When you’re doing this early Halifax training.
ID: You were really concentrating on your RAF training. What you wanted to do was be the best pilot in the air force so I spent all my spare time studying the aircraft. Getting to know it completely only to be posted away from them. Which was good because the Lancaster was unbeatable as an aircraft.
LD: But I thought you wanted to be a fighter pilot when you first started.
ID: Well I did. Yeah. But we all did and when we left Australia they told us, ‘Sorry, there’s no room for you. We don’t need you as a fighter pilot. There’s plenty of fighter pilots available in England. There are no bomber pilots. So we switched to bomber training. And then I went from there to what’s called a Lancaster Finishing School and I was at Hemswell which is just next to Lincoln. And [pause] what happened there was exciting.
LD: Were you with Ron and Geoffrey still?
JP: Were you with Ron and —?
ID: I was with Ron and Geoffrey until we finished Operational Training Unit and Heavy Conversion. But we separated from then. Ron, I believe, was killed on return from a flight. And Geoff was shot down on his sixth mission.
JP: Sixth mission.
ID: On the sixth. And it was at a place called Gelsenkirchen which, in German I think probably means many churches. The point was that we were there. We, we’d separated by this stage because they’d posted us to different directions.
JP: Directions. That’s right.
ID: They didn’t like us all to stick together. Form an Australian clique or something.
JP: Yeah.
ID: So we were switched around.
JP: Switched around. Yeah.
LD: You did tell me that you had done some, you had to do night flying and you heard there was good surf in Cornwall.
ID: Say that again.
LD: You told me once that you, being a few Aussies that you had to practice your training and your night flying and you heard there was some good surf in Cornwall.
ID: Well, I went down to Cornwall to surf but it was freezing. I’ll never forget going in. The first time I decided to put my toe on the water.
JP: Toe in the water.
ID: It went numb.
JP: Numb. That’s right. Yes. That’s, that’s exactly right. And so you finished this training and that’s when you went to 625. You were posted to 625.
ID: 625 yeah.
JP: And was that, when you went to 625 is that when you did your crewing up? Or did you do the crewing up before you went to 625?
ID: Most of it was done before we went. At the end of OTU.
JP: OT.
ID: When we went to Wellingtons. We only had one pilot of course but we had our gunners..
JP: Yeah.
ID: We had a radio operator.
JP: Right.
ID: We had a navigator.
JP: Right. Ok. So that, so that, you got that crew together.
ID: Yeah.
JP: Back then. At OTU.
ID: I remember —
JP: Yeah. So who did you have then?
ID: By this time there was only one pilot at a time to plane.
JP: Right. Yeah.
ID: Geoff and Ron had gone off in their own directions.
JP: Direction. Yeah. So who was your navigator?
ID: His name was Carpenter. Stanley Carpenter.
JP: Stanley Carpenter. He was an Australian.
ID: He was a bank manager out of Durham.
JP: Oh an Englishman.
ID: Yeah.
JP: Right. Ok. What about the other chaps?
ID: Well, the radio operator I think I mentioned who came from Toowoomba.
JP: Yeah.
ID: And then I had a bomb aimer named Ron Jacobs who came from Sydney but he was quiet and quiet after. I never really got to him after the war. He just kept quiet. Disappeared.
JP: Ok. And he was your bomb aimer you said?
ID: They were called bomb aimer navigator.
JP: Right.
ID: And they were called an Observer.
JP: Yeah. Ok.
ID: And they would stand by in case something happened to the navigator. Also, I had, in my case, I gave mine special training so that if anything happened to me he’d be able to fly the aeroplane back.
JP: Plane. Yeah. Ok and what about your gunners? Did you have some gunners at that stage?
ID: One came from the Newcastle area. Do you know the northeast of England?
JP: Roughly. A bit further up around Aldwick and yeah.
ID: Yeah. Around. Well one of them came from the area that was known as —they have a special name for it and [unclear] anyhow it was near on Newcastle and the other gunner came from Scotland.
JP: Oh ok. Whereabouts? Do you remember roughly where in Scotland?
ID: No. And not only that there was no way to track him after the war.
JP: After right.
ID: He just disappeared.
JP: Ok. So the –
ID: But the mid upper gunner [McClowsky?] migrated to Australia and died only just recently at a, at a home down in the south coast at Sydney.
JP: Oh really.
ID: Yeah.
JP: Goodness. Ok. Ok so this is your crew and you’ve been together basically since OTU and so now you’ve been posted to 625.
ID: Yeah.
JP: And you start your ops. That’s right. So I think you did about eighteen ops with this crew at 625.
ID: That’s right.
JP: What particular, any –
ID: In actual fact nineteen.
JP: Nineteen yeah.
ID: You see the first, the first two you flew as what’s called second dickey and in my particular case one was an American pilot. The other was an English pilot. And they had I thought rather mild problems with it. Enough so turned back. So we didn’t really count them yet they were over German.
JP: Territory.
ID: Territory. So they really did count. But —
JP: So, what — what stands out in in those various ops? Any particular near misses or little events that, stories that you can tell me about from any of those ops?
ID: Well, they were particular times. I was I suppose you could say poetic. Sorry for what but I was fascinated by Robin Hood, England and, you know. The Sherwood Oaks. So I did lots of exploration.
JP: Yes, but in —
ID: Every chance I got.
JP: Yeah.
ID: I went and had a look at some new place.
JP: Ok.
LD: Did you fly there dad. Did you do extra training or did you go —
ID: No. No. I was fine in training.
JP: Yeah. But with, when you — with the op [pause] in the raids that you were doing when you were at 625 —those eighteen, nineteen, twenty raids.
ID: They were very scary raids.
JP: Scary raids. Why were they scary?
ID: That was a very rough time flying. We lost more aircraft at that particular period than at any other period. And it was just that, well the Germans had enough aircraft to put in the air.
JP: Yeah.
ID: To shoot you down.
JP: Yeah.
ID: So we were you trying to dodge them all the while.
JP: Were you flying always more or less to the same area? Were you flying in to the Ruhr? Was that the main or were you flying elsewhere?
ID: The Ruhr Valley as it was called or Happy Valley. We used to get it. Was our main target area because it was Germany’s main industrial area. So, most of our raids were on places like Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Cologne, Essen. And then on the edges of there. Places like Frankfurt and Stuttgart which wasn’t too far from the Ruhr.
JP: Ruhr. Yeah.
ID: But they were on the River Rhine.
JP: Yeah.
LD: How was it when you were flying dad. Was it very loud. How long did it take you? How many hours. Was it really cold?
ID: Well that depended on where. Which particular target you were on. But it could go from about four hours to about six hours. That’s the length. The duration of the flight.
JP: Yeah. But always you were dealing with a lot of German fighter planes.
ID: Yeah.
JP: Sort of up there creating trouble.
ID: I wasn’t. I wasn’t doing much dealing with them because it seemed somehow or other they dodged me and let me get on with the job of bombing [laughs]
JP: So, you were able to successfully drop quite a lot of bombs in those.
ID: Yeah. I always. I never turned back, and you know I did some very fine raids I thought at the time. Particularly some with winds that hadn’t been forecast. You turned around and come back and you had a howling headwind and you wondered if you were going to get back.
JP: Get back and have enough juice in the tank to get you home.
ID: This was, this was where I met Pat. When she — and what happened there was that we tried to get back into our base . The whole of the south of England was fogged in and we were given a diversionary. Numbers like three or four figures. That meant it was a certain base. I was given a base. And the navigator got the base and they said, ‘You’re going to Wymeswold.’ We got to Wymeswold and that was fogged in. We were running low on gas. There is only one other place for you to go to and that was Fort Ellen. Which was a little island off the coast of Scotland. And I said, ‘We’ve got no choice we’ve got to get in there.’ So, we waited will we landed at Fort Ellen. I was reported missing. Pat was at that stage we were starting to get fond of each other. So, we came back the next day and we carried on.
JP: And did they — the senior officers have anything to say about you having to divert so far or or –
ID: No. Not really.
JP: Not really.
ID: The closest I got, I got what? A DFC. And that was an award for fighting.
JP: Yeah. Well we’ll come, we’ll come back to that.
ID: I also was told by the wing commander I myself when the war ended we were going to go out to Japan. If I stayed and not get married that he would make sure I got the DSO. I’d done sixty missions by this time and some of the [unclear ] squadron leader but you know by that stage I think starry eyes take over and I was too fond of Pat to think of giving her up to go and fight. So —
JP: You didn’t.
ID: So, I thought about it for a while and then I decided, well, what am I going to do when I got back? I didn’t like the bank, but I worked in a bank so —
JP: Ok. Well we’ll come to that bit later because we need to go from 625 to 156.
ID: Yeah.
JP: To the Pathfinder. So how did you persuade your crew to —
ID: With great difficulty.
JP: With great difficulty. What special —
ID: No. No.
JP: Charms did you exert?
ID: None of them wanted to go.
JP: No.
ID: We’d done our tour and then they, you know, by rights they could then take at least six months without having to operate again. But in actual fact I said I’m going to stay on for forty five. Do forty five trips until ’45 at that stage and stay on until ‘45 and [unclear] put it to them. I said, ‘Well I’m going to go to Pathfinders. If you want to come with me you come. If you don’t want to come, I’ll go off on my own and pick up another crew,’ because there were crews available and places for good pilots like me if I wanted. So, every one of them volunteered to stay.
JP: Volunteered.
ID: So, the whole crew continued on and by the time I’d done nineteen operations and also it was a very difficult period as far as getting shot at was concerned. But well I think [unclear] Although we got [unclear] somewhere that there was two hundred and seventy two holes in the aircraft and it didn’t come down.
JP: Amazing.
ID: Yeah.
JP: So, when did you actually start with Bomber —Bomber Command — with Pathfinders? Do you remember roughly what month that you —?
ID: By this stage it was’44. In the, out in the middle of 1944.
JP: Right.
ID: I switched to Pathfinders.
JP: Yeah. Ok.
ID: And then we had to do further training.
JP: Right.
ID: It was called a Pathfinder night training unit where we had to do a lot of day time training and a lot of low level flying. We did all sorts of training.
JP: Yes. Because of training.
ID: The flying programme was specialised. In case you were called upon to do it.
JP: Do it.
LD: And all on Lancaster.
ID: We were lucky. We were lucky and we worked hard.
JP: Yes.
ID: We planned.
JP: Planned. Yes.
ID: And I think I would say that I was a good pilot and I was able to dodge incoming but I could still today do that [sniff] and still smell the cordite of shells exploding around the aeroplane.
JP: That’s right.
ID: So, I was very very close.
JP: Close. Yes.
ID: I think I was on the raid Geoff Jones was shot down.
JP: Right. And the raids, the ops that you did as part of the Pathfinders. What, what particular raids — do they stand out to you that you can tell me about?
ID: Raids.
JP: Yeah. What. You know— the missions that you did. Any. Any. I mean I know, I know there is a bit of —
ID: Well right at the end of the war when I was, I’d been made a Master Bomber.
JP: Right.
ID: Which meant you took control of the whole of the bomber force. But you do a period as deputy master first and I’d completed two of those and then I was given my call sign. That was not very romantic. Plate Rack it was called.
JP: Plate Racket.
ID: Plate Rack.
JP: Oh my goodness.
ID: I was Plate Rack 1.
JP: Plate Rack 1. Right. Ok.
ID: Plate Rack 1 would be telling the, you know, the main force on what they had to do.
Other: With his crew.
ID: Bomb forward and so on and so forth.
JP: And you say they were scary because of the amount of the combination of factors being low level flying, lots of German aircraft. What would you say was the most scary factor?
Other: [unclear]
ID: Being shot down by the fighters. Because they’d creep in from behind you and you didn’t know they were there. We had no way of establishing.
JP: Establishing.
Other: Yes. He’s not in this one.
ID: Am I in that picture?
JP: Yeah. That’s right.
Other: Eight of them.
ID: That’s me.
JP: Yeah. And the operation. When you were — you mentioned and I said I’d come back to. You were awarded the DFC. Can you tell me about which operation?
ID: It wasn’t anything —
JP: No one operation. It was an accumulation of —
ID: It was over a period of time.
JP: Time.
ID: A number of very hairy operations that I did but you know I had —
JP: Was this in Pathfinder? As part of the Pathfinder ops or —
ID: Well, I was in Pathfinders by this time.
JP: Yes, right, yeah.
ID: And what actually happened was that when I went down to Pathfinders they just said forget what you’ve done up till now. So, I had to start all over again. And it was a bit, well it wasn’t scary [unclear ] because I was well trained for it. It was frightening. And as long as you planned well and trained well you had as good a chance as anybody. You know, we lost at that particular stage, we lost about half the, half of the people that took place in the raids.
JP: Yes. That’s a very, a very significant loss ratio. It’s, it is quite amazing.
ID: The raids on the Ruhr were always difficult because every one of those places I’ve mentioned had their own particular ack-ack batteries of flak and they were constantly shooting at you. So, dodging that was always scary. I mean there’s nothing much you can do about it.
JP: Except stick together and follow and do —
ID: Yeah.
JP: Follow all your planning and make use of all your preparation.
ID: Yeah but you know you didn’t fly in formation like the Yanks did.
JP: Oh no. No. No.
ID: We went independently. Navigated independently.
JP: Independently.
ID: To the target and that way, we were able to adjust. And I think it’s probably one of the reasons why they accepted me in the Pathfinders. That I was able to make decisions. Life affecting decisions that always worked out right.
JP: And I mean, and the flying conditions were never easy anyway with, with your own squadron members because there, there were so many if you needed to take quick evasive action there was always one of your own planes not that far away that you were trying to avoid as well. Is the situation.
ID: Always was that fact. Normally was no problem.
JP: Right.
ID: But if you got weather fogged in which you can get. Particularly during that Christmas of 1944 was a very very difficult period weather wise.
JP: Wise.
ID: Yeah. Had to be able to get in. Get landed.
JP: Yes. And so —
LD: This photo is at the end of March 1944.
JP: ‘44. ok right. We’ll come back to that one then. That’s good. And so all of these forty two ops take you through to forty —
ID: Sixty if you count. If I counted those two as one.
JP: Yeah. One. Ah yes.
ID: Do you know what I mean?
JP: By the time you add in the 625 yeah. The sixty.
ID: Of which thirty nine were with Pathfinders.
JP: Path. Yeah. Yeah. And —
ID: And remember you worked your way through. I had a very good navigator so the navigator wanted him to be chosen to do what we called sky marking. It was operating, marking in the blind, in the cloud because his work on radar was good. He was able to give me directions which meant I always got through.
JP: So, your navigator was doing this blind sky marking.
ID: Yes.
JP: Yes.
ID: He was, he, you know you’d fly the aeroplane but as you got nearer the target was under his direction for ten miles to the left and so on and so forth because as we got further into the Ruhr there was nowhere to go, you know. Because when you went to Duisburg or Dusseldorf one flak battery was shooting at you. As was the other one.
JP: And were you taking photographs as well during the —
ID: No. I did have a camera which I got in New York which was stolen in Cornwall of all places. Newton Abbot. All my baggage disappeared.
JP: Oh dear. Right. And so —
ID: And I bought a leather jacket in New York. And a camera.
JP: Right.
ID: But I’ve never been like my younger brother. Spent his life taking pictures. I never bothered that much.
JP: No. Right.
ID: Still don’t. I can remember it pretty well.
JP: Yeah. You can. You can remember it very well. And with the — so the crew then. You mentioned your navigator, so your entire crew was still all the same. You hadn’t changed any of your personnel at this stage. So, all your crew —
ID: No. I never lost any crew members.
JP: No.
ID: They all stayed with me until —
JP: The end .
ID: The end of their tour.
JP: Stayed until the end of the operation. The end of that tour, that’s —
ID: With the exception of the rear gunner who stayed on.
JP: Who stayed on.
ID: And I stayed on to go on my third tour.
JP: Oh, my goodness.
ID: He stayed on with me.
JP: Right.
ID: So, we could have very easily been shot down but we weren’t.
JP: You weren’t. No.
ID: That’s the way it goes.
JP: Well as we say there’s, that’s —
ID: And when you do it sixty times you know, you get your frights from time to time.
JP: And what — obviously you had a very close crew at this point because you’d been together for so long.
ID: Yes.
JP: Did any of them have any particular good luck charms or anything like that? Or superstitions that they always —
ID: Well let me just say one thing here. That our crew — we stuck together as a group even though I was an officer and the others were all other ranks or flight sergeants more or less. We went out together. We went to the local pub together. That sort of thing. And we just didn’t separate out and go off in different directions. It was only when I definitely decided to get married that we started to spend a bit of time occasionally with ourselves.
JP: So, when you did —
ID: What I used to do, for instance, we used to go to Cambridge. We were based near Cambridge. And in Cambridge there was a swimming pool and you could practice your dinghy drop. So, we were, this was where we signed up. I’d sign and they’d provide a dinghy for me and then I’d take the whole crew along and we would do a dinghy drill which was good because if we got shot down we’d get some practice.
JP: Practice.
ID: We’d be in the water.
JP: Yeah.
ID: So, we did that and then after we’d done the dinghy drill Pat and I would go off to explore Cambridge for example.
JP: Right. So, when you had periods of leave you would have sort of gone your own separate ways a little bit then from the rest of your crew. Or even when you were on leave did you all stay together?
ID: No. When I met Pat — when we decided to become engaged after we’d done our training then we’d go our own way and then most of the crew accepted that I was with Pat so we did our own thing. And the pictures that you see of my wife in the canoe there. She — I’ve got a picture of her there.
JP: That’s good. And —
LD: Because my mother used to interpret the photos.
JP: Oh ok.
ID: So, she would debrief the crews.
JP: Debrief. That’s right.
LD: So dad got his crew to wait so that he could be specifically debriefed by Pat.
JP: Very good. Very well done. But this was while you were at 625 so I presume she stayed at — around with the 625 base to do the debrief. The intelligence work there. She didn’t —
ID: No. No.
JP: She moved did she? When you moved to Pathfinders.
ID: When I moved to Pathfinders.
JP: Did she move?
ID: She got —
JP: She got herself another job did she?
ID: She tried to get down. She was the senior female officer in intelligence. Female officer that is. And so she tried to pull a few strings.
JP: Pull a few strings.
ID: And get as close to me as she could. And she was fairly successful. She was based at Wing and she was based at Wratting Common. And when she was at Wratting Common I was able to take the Oxford on beam training and I’d called in to Ratting Common for tea.
LD: You told me you couldn’t drive a car, but you could fly a plane. Drove over for tea and took mum out on a bicycle made for two.
ID: That’s true. I was flying an aeroplane before I —
JP: Got your licence.
ID: Drove a car.
JP: Well that’s, that’s good. And —
ID: And of course, people like Pat, in those days they didn’t have cars. They were allowed to have cars.
JP: No. No. So what would you say your best experiences were from — what would you say were the best I mean there’s an awful lot of bad parts associated with all of those ops and all the rest of it. Are there any, would you say there were some good parts to come out of that? Can you identify any good parts?
ID: Well —
JP: Apart from Pat I mean. I’m not talking about your —
ID: No. No, I know that.
JP: Yeah.
ID: One thing I’ll still — I’ll often go to bed and fall asleep thinking about or reeling about it. And that’s when I was deputy master bomber. Right. That meant that I had to orbit the target the same as the master bomber in case he was shot down. I had to take over. And we were doing a raid on a place called Plauen which is a between Berlin and Leipzig. And I’ll never forget the next day. I suppose it were really a freighter carrying ammunition or something but we hit it and it jack-knifed and you could see in the air the train coming together. The front and the back and the rest of it up in the sky like that. That was a scary period.
LD: You mustn’t have been very high up.
JP: No. They were never high up.
ID: No. No. Not on that one. It was a strange one because the master bomber had said to me there was too much cloud there, ‘Go down and find a level we can bomb at.’ So, you did as you were told so I went eighteen thousand where I was at and had to get down to ten thousand and then eventually eight thousand. I was underneath the cloud base and able to direct the raid and saw this go on.
JM: Amazing. And so, when you decided not to go — go on with the flying and you got you then sort of went in to discharge mode. You got that you were married in England.
ID: Yeah.
JM: First in what about —?
ID: Well remember the first thing was the wing commander offered me a job.
JM: Yeah.
ID: As a flight commander with the Tiger Force which was coming out to fight the Japanese. I had that choice, or I could get married.
JM: And you chose to get married.
ID: Chose to get married.
JM: Yes.
ID: And Pat and I was quite close as far as bases were concerned at that particular time.
LD: You also helped drop some of the provisions in Holland didn’t you? I seem to remember.
ID: Yes. Well that was after that.
JM: After VE day. After —
ID: It wasn’t after the war so much. It was after the area where we were operating. And I know I had to mark the target.
JM: Target.
ID: That was a field. And we had a field that — in the middle. It was Rotterdam.
JM: Right.
ID: And we went to Rotterdam and you found the field and you put markers. These are very powerful lights that shine and allow the Pathfinders to see it. So, we did that, and I controlled that particular [unclear] it was done properly and we were very successful.
JM: So how?
ID: And the Dutch were very happy about it.
JM: Yes. How many trips did you do for that?
ID: Two. I think.
JM: Two. Ok. So, when did you and Pat get married?
ID: On June the [pause] June the 20th I think it was. 1944.
JM: ‘44 or ’45?
ID: ‘45 sorry.
JM: Yeah. And that was up in Scotland was it?
ID: We were married actually in Scotland but it was, was a bit unusual. The wing commander as I told you wanted to [pause] me to go and be his flight commander but I chose to stay and then I had to do something. But Pat had some influence and she introduced me to a wing commander in London that controlled the postings and I told him that QANTAS had just got Lancastrians and that if I wanted to get a job with a Lancastrian it would be a good idea to to do the initial training in England and go back to Australia with a licence. And so what happened — I did the pilot’s training initially and to do that I had to go special course on hydraulics and a special course on electrics because they were different on the Lancastrian than they were on the Lancaster.
JM: Right.
ID: So, what actually happened was that I went to — I’ll never forget it to this day. I went to — I think it was called Woodford. Woodford and Chatterton. I went to both of them. And he said, ‘What do you want?’ — the fellow in charge of security at the gate. And I said, I’ve come — ‘I want to see Roy Derbeau‘ ‘Who?’ ‘Roy Derbeau.’ I don’t think we have anybody named that but I’ll have a look. So, he had a look and then a message came down from headquarters. They sent him up to see me and so I went up to see him and then —
LD: Because, Do you mean Sir Roy.’
ID: Secretary that I saw and he said, ‘You couldn’t possibly mean Sir Roy [laughs] I’ll never forget it. ‘You couldn’t possibly mean Sir Roy.’ I said, ‘Is he the fellow in charge of Avro’s production?’ Which he was and he said, ‘Yeah. That’s the bloke.’ The next thing I knew they had provided me with a Humber car.
JM: Oh.
ID: And put me up in the Midland Hotel where they kept some spare room and I stayed in that room for three weeks doing these two courses.
JM: Marvellous.
ID: I showed that I had the necessary equipment now and knowledge to get a first class — first class licence.
JM: First class licence.
ID: Air transport licence.
JM: Licence. Yeah.
ID: And then because nothing was happening we didn’t really know whether Tiger Force was going to get away.
JM: Get away.
ID: So, what I did was go went down to Southampton University and told them what my problem was. They said, ‘Well, you’ll have to learn about the tides. And I said, ‘What do you mean the tides? I’m flying an aeroplane. Landing a plane.’ ‘It doesn’t matter. The rules say you’ve got to have a knowledge of the tides around the shores of England.’
JM: Right.
ID: So, they put me on a special course for that.
JM: Right.
ID: So I got out of that and I’d now a first class pilot’s licence. Now, I got a second class navigator’s licence and then a radio operator’s licence that I went and did in between.
JM: Goodness.
ID: So I thought that’s fine ,and that’s basically where I was.
JM: Basically was. Yes.
ID: Until I came back.
JM: Back to Australia.
ID: To Australia.
JM: Ok. Well we’ll —
ID: I convinced them that I’d done enough.
JM: You’d done enough. Ok. Well we’ll follow that up in a moment. We’ll pause there so you can have your pills. Ok.
[recording paused]
JM: I was obviously lucky because I got shot at many many times.
ID: Many times. That’s right. As somebody else said to me it’s the luck of the draw.
JM: Yeah.
ID: Yeah. If you were in the wrong position at the wrong time you got shot down.
JM: That’s right. Very hard. So, you’re doing this training. You’ve got married to Pat and so then you — what about your return to Australia at this point? When? Where? When did you leave?
ID: Well when I came back —
JM: When did you leave because you and Pat came back separately didn’t you?
ID: Yeah.
JM: Yeah so —
ID: I came back on the Aquitania via Cape Town.
JM: Right. When did you leave? What —
ID: When I got here about two months. Three months later Pat arrived. Very, very pregnant at this stage. But she was — everything was above board.
JM: Yeah.
ID: We were brought up, well I was brought up the old fashioned way. You didn’t go flirting around with your wife to be. You waited. In our case we waited and we got married. We got married in Ely.
JM: In —
ID: Ely Cathedral.
JM: Ely. Oh right.
ID: Yeah.
JM: Right. Lovely.
ID: And the thing with that was that the crew that was supposed to be bringing up the best man. You know, my close friend —
JM: Yes. I was going to say were most of your crew at the wedding?
ID: Yeah and they didn’t come.
JM: They couldn’t come.
ID: No. They couldn’t come. Couldn’t.
JM: They had to go off and —
ID: Well I think what actually happened was that they, they’d been on a raid and they’d got back and they didn’t have enough time.
JM: Time.
ID: To get ready to come up to Glasgow. It was a bit of distance to do that so I remember walking along. I didn’t know because I had a phone call. I was staying at a hotel that and it was Pat’s mother saying, ‘Where are you?’ I said, ‘I’m having a shower.’ And she said, ‘You’re supposed to be getting married in a few minutes.’ ‘Don’t be silly our wedding’s at 11 o’clock and its only about half past eight.’ She said, ‘The priest changed the time.’ And I said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘Oh he wanted a bottle of whisky.’ So, I had to find this bottle of whisky for him and then he put the wedding off.
JM: Oh dear.
ID: Fella on the street that I got and there was a sergeant in the RAF. ‘Sergeant. You’re under orders. You are to attend this church.’ It was about twenty minutes by then. ‘In about twenty minutes you are to be the best man at my wedding.’ He said, ‘I don’t know you.’ What does that matter?’ I said, ‘I’m going off in a different direction.’ So that’s what happened.
JM: That’s what happened.
ID: I never, I never even knew his name.
JM: Name. So, Pat’s mother was there at the wedding. Was there any other family there or not?
ID: Yes. Pat’s sister. Sister [pause] And this was us just leaving on our honeymoon.
JM: Right. Ok. And where did you go for your honeymoon?
ID: A place called the Trossachs.
JM: Oh yes up in the middle there —
ID: In Scotland.
JM: Yes. There’s an old castle with — yes, I know the Trossachs very well.
ID: Do you?
JM: Yes. Yes, I do.
ID: Well, in those days that hotel was put aside especially for people who had had a very risky life in the war and particularly submarines. They seemed to go there. Anyhow, somehow or other I got through Pat. We got a room at this hotel. I’ll never forget to this day because we decided to go for a swim in that area. And there’s three lakes. Loch Venachar, Loch Katrine and Loch Achray. And there’s a great song that goes, “The copsewood grey that swept the banks of Loch Achray.” And we went for a swim and so I was last to go. And it was second last, she dived in and she didn’t really have a proper bathing suit. She’d tied some sort of bandage around her top and of course she came over the top of the water, I saw her and I thought oh God she’s drowning so I dived in. I’ll never forget it. I got her out of the water and we went in to — we had separate rooms at this stage and a basement and we warmed ourselves up there.
JM: So I guess Pat then went back and finished up work when you were on the boat coming out to Australia. Is that right?
ID: I didn’t work coming back to Australia. No.
JM: Sorry?
ID: I was just a passenger.
JM: No. No. Yes. I said Pat finished work.
ID: Yeah. Pat
JM: Finished work.
ID: What she did was she spent whatever time she had as near to me as she could.
JM: Could. Yeah. Yeah.
ID: But you very quickly ran out of money in those days.
JM: No.
ID: I had the paybook and didn’t have too much in it.
JM: No.
ID: Then we ended up at the, it was called the Abbot or something hotel at Brighton and we between us had about four or five pounds left and had about two weeks leave left to use up at that time as well. So I said, ‘Let’s go up and watch the races at Palace Court.’ And there was a horse there called The Reel and we put the whole our money on The Reel that won and we got fifty pounds out of that.
JM: Wow. Oh, that was good.
ID: For fifty pounds then we had a lovely last week or so in England.
JM: Yeah.
ID: And then of course I came home.
JM: Yeah.
ID: From Southampton.
JM: Southampton and you came back. Did you come back to Sydney or Brisbane? Where did you — or did you have to —
ID: On the way back, we came back through Cape Town. Stopped over in Cape Town for a couple of days and then we just dropped off troops in Perth and then the train. I think the plane or a train The ship stopped in Melbourne.
JM: Melbourne. And you had to come up by train from Melbourne.
ID: Up by train. I’ll never forget it because Pat had made herself a dress and it was big polka dots and she [unclear ] the polka dots. it looked really quite weird and out of place and she was pregnant by this time.
JM: But you, but she didn’t come out, but she came out after you didn’t she?
ID: Yeah.
JM: So, you came in to Melbourne, came up to Sydney. Met up —
ID: We came up together.
JM: Oh. You oh she was not that far behind you. You stayed in Melbourne did you, till she came?
ID: I was lucky in that things were and still are, you know, I’m ninety three, ninety four now they fall my way and this was what actually happened. We were able to get tickets on the Spirit of Progress, and it was [unclear] black something or other the temperature was about a hundred and ten at Melbourne. And we came up through the heat and then the air conditioning broke down. We had to change train at Wagga. Not Wagga.
JM: At Wagga Aubrey wasn’t it?
ID: Aubrey.
LD: So, dad you actually came before mum though didn’t you?
ID: Yes. Sure.
LD: How long before mum did you arrive?
ID: About two months.
LD: Yeah.
JM: Two months. Yeah. So you came up to Sydney but then you went back down, and you caught up with your parents in Sydney. And then —
ID: No, I came straight back, and I was staying at my parents’ house.
JM: Yeah. Ok. So, you were staying at your parent’s house and then Pat landed in Melbourne so you went back down to Melbourne to meet her.
ID: We came back by train.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
ID: And then we both stayed.
JM: Yeah.
ID: And it was at that stage my sister was just about to get married or had just got married and Jack, it was, had won the military medal in the Solomons. He moved out and June moved out to make sure there was a nice big room for Pat and I.
JM: That’s good. So, so now we’re in to right, right. Ok so this is, which into January ‘46 by this stage. So you then set about getting into your working life I guess. At this point.
ID: Well, what happened was obviously after I’d done this study in England, to get a licence so I could get a job with QANTAS. I went to see the QANTAS people and they said, ‘No way. We’ve got twenty thousand pilots all looking for jobs.
JM: Jobs.
ID: All of them wing commanders. and I said, ‘Well I’ve got licences they don’t have.’ ‘Well sorry.’ When I went down to Melbourne strangely enough and I managed to get a flight out with the air force and I went to see the A&A people ‘cause they were —
JM: Yes.
ID: And they offered me a job straightaway. So when I went home again I had a call from QANTAS to say we’re still a little bit interested in. Yeah. And I said well interested back. And I said well interested had better harden straightaway because I’ve just accepted an offer for a job for A&A. Within an hour they phoned me and asked, ‘If you’re here at 9 o’clock tomorrow morning we’ll put you in your uniform.’
LD: Pretty good. There’s the Aquitania arriving in Woolloomooloo.
JM: Right.
LD: In 1945.
JM: Oh ok.
LD: And that’s taken from your mum dad’s, parent’s house. Flat.
JM: Oh, my goodness. Goodness. Right. Right. Ok. So, so, then you actually started with QUANTAS then and how many years were you with QANTAS?
ID: I joined QUANTAS on the [pause] January 19 –
JM: 1946.
ID: ’46, it was back then.
JM: Yeah.
ID: And I stayed with them until the April 1st 1954.
JM: Right. Ok. So, eight years. A bit over eight years. Yeah.
ID: Yeah. I — at the age of twenty four I was a captain with QANTAS.
JM: Gosh.
ID: And I think the youngest international captain in Australia.
JM: Youngest. Australia. So, you were doing international flights then. You –
ID: Yeah. Oh yes. Straight away.
JM: Did you do the Kangaroo Route or —
ID: Straight into international flying.
JM: Flying.
ID: On the Lancastrians.
JM: Yeah.
ID: And true to this day, and main reason was that they didn’t have anybody to fly in an aircraft. And there was a Liberator had lost an engine. They had to get an engine across to Learmonth of all places.
JM: Right.
ID: So I now had a licence. It was easier in those days just to switch it over and have — endorsed to fly Liberators. They took me up in an afternoon. Put me through like four hours flying. They said right you go and fly the Lancaster. So didn’t go as captain of course but as first officer.
JM: No but at least that meant they then had a crew to be able to solve their engine problem.
ID: They did.
JM The replacement engine problem
ID: Of course, they had the Lanc engine fixed up and that took off, going to the Cocos Island I think it was.
JM: Right. Right.
ID: And left me abandoned if you like at Port [unclear], they used to call it.
JM: Right. So, any particular experiences that stand out for you during your time at QANTAS? Your eight years at QANTAS? Any particular trips or particular important people that you might have carried.
ID: Well, one thing but I don’t want to put it in print. One of the first officers, you see, we only had two pilots and a flight time of nine to ten hours and we were coming back from Hong Kong. Trying to get in to Darwin and then there was a cyclone. And the cyclone forced us to dodge trying to land in Darwin. So we were sent to Cloncurry and I couldn’t get the plane down on the ground it was so hot. It started fluttering along there. That was one scary time.
JM: That must have been one scary experience. So, what did you do? Did you get it. Did you have to give up and go somewhere else. Or where else did you go?
ID: There was nowhere else to go.
JM: There was nowhere else, you just had to get it down.
ID: What actually happened to it was [unclear] Cloncurry I went back to Darwin. I was still on the outskirts. [unclear] We couldn’t land at Darwin, so we went back to a place called [unclear]
JM: Right.
ID: We went on to and the [unclear] I loaded up with gas. Headed back towards Darwin. By this time I was getting pretty tired so I thought I’d have a rest. I had to have a rest. Anyhow, I got up after my very brief rest to look out and see mountain peaks just there. By that house. As close as that. And it was all part of the ranges that went through. [unclear] Papua New Guinea. And the first officer who was supposed to fly in the aircraft had fallen asleep and they had a special recording compass which would — you put the thing in George and George followed the thing around on one, and I looked up and we seemed to be heading in the wrong direction. And I looked again and sure enough we were. We were very very lucky. We could have gone straight into that mountain. He quit inside a week.
LD: Golly gosh. You also told me that you helped to open up the air route to Christchurch.
ID: Yes. I did a lot of flights.
JM: Yeah.
ID: I did the [pause] Melbourne to Christchurch. That was on DC4s.
JM: Right. And so, moving along. Just summarising after you finished up at QANTAS you decided — did you have an approach to move to your next job or did you decide you wanted to give up QANTAS.
ID: Firstly, QANTAS paid very poorly in those days and I had a bunch of kids at home always looking for Christmas presents. Anyhow, I had the opportunity. I was in Singapore. I was introduced to the head of Caltex in Singapore and he said, ‘We’re looking for a chief pilot who’ll take on the job of training the Indonesians and then hand over to them.’ And they were willing to pay more than twice what I was getting.
JM: Gosh.
ID: So I said yes please. I went back and on the 1st of April 1954 I left QANTAS and joined Caltex.
JM: Caltex.
ID: And it was Caltex Pacific Petroleum it was called. And I’ll never forget it. Because when I got there, you know they put all this panic on, ‘You’ve got to be there tomorrow.’ So and so [pause] when I got there, they put me up in the Captain’s Room in the Raffles Hotel where I stayed for six weeks. Doing nothing.
JM: How nice.
ID: Except playing golf.
JM: Oh, my goodness me. Oh goodness. That must have been a tough life. But still, I mean, apart from the fact that your away from your family or had any of your family come up at that point or you were up there by yourself at that —
LD: When did we all go to Indonesia dad?
JM: In that six weeks at — when you were in Raffles Hotel were you by yourself?
ID: I was by myself.
JM: Self. Right. Yeah.
ID: I was staying at the Raffles.
JM: Yeah.
ID: But Pat and Louise and Mary came up by ship.
JM: Right.
ID: Norwegian ship. And they flew them in and then I had two or three days staying in a place not far from the actual airport itself in Singapore [unclear] The fact we were being based in Jakarta.
JM: Right.
ID: Because they reckoned that would be the best place to do their training from.
JM: Right.
ID: So I went to Jakarta to pick them up. One thing mind you was though I had no training on DC3 at this stage. I hadn’t really flown the aircraft at all and all of a sudden I’m the chief pilot.
JM: Pilot.
ID: I’m the chief training captain.
JM: Right. So, you had some, had to do some reading up quick smart then I guess to just be able to do the bit of pick up the bits and pieces you needed for the different plane.
ID: Well, flying is like riding a bicycle. You don’t forget how to do it.
JM: No but there would have been. Each plane has its own idiosyncrasies doesn’t it?
ID: As long as everything goes alright you have no trouble.
JM: Yeah.
ID: If something goes wrong then you’re in trouble.
JM: Yeah. That’s true.
ID: So I flew off and picked them up and went to Jakarta and we stayed in a place called [unclear] and then we moved out to [unclear] which a very nice house actually we had. Had up to eleven servants.
JM: Gosh.
ID: What actually happened was I was a pretty good golfer and the president of the golf club was the British Ambassador.
JM: Oh ok.
ID: And the club captain was an Australian. The Australian ambassador and when they said to me, ‘You fly pretty well. Do you want a job?’ I told them what I was doing. You leave tomorrow. Tomorrow I was on the way to Jakarta.
JM: Gosh.
ID: In those days it was, you know, who you knew.
JM: That’s right.
ID: [unclear]
JM: Well I don’t know as it’s all that different today quite frankly but yes, so you had six, six years in Indonesia.
ID: Well I was.
JM: Roundabout.
ID: I was there from April 1st again. 19—
JM: 1960.
ID: 1960.
JM: Yeah. And then from there you had a big change of scenery. You went off to Bahrain.
ID: I went there. What actually happened was that I decided that once I was going to go away from QUANTAS. I mean I was already doing very very well in QANTAS. I’d better get something worthwhile. So I was offered this job as chief training captain which I took up but then part of the job was to train the Indonesians to take over. And it took six years, but remember we had full crews and needed pilots or radio operators and whatnot, so I stayed there as supervisor. So that was done and then I got Type B Hepatitis and I remember I was pretty ill. Down in Melbourne. Royal Prince Albert Hospital.
JM: Hospital. That would have knocked you around a bit.
ID: Yes. It was a bit scary because I was in constant fever there for a while. But whatever.
LD: We used to go and visit him in hospital and there was the man next to him and he was always [flailing about?] for water.
ID: And the deputy chief of Caltex Petroleum was [unclear] who came down to Melbourne to see me. [unclear] coming to visit me. [unclear] and he said what do you want? And I said well I left QANTAS to try and further myself. I wish to go at marketing. I wish I did have, probably still have, to a degree. Anyway, the point is that they decided that they’d send me to Bahrain to do some brief training in marketing because in Bahrain we had marketing as shipping producing exploration and a full gamut of the oil business and they thought that was a good place for me to learn. So, I was sent there. Well basically to be there for six weeks. But the chap was superintendent of transport operations and remember we had a big transport operation was [pause] he was, I forget his name. A British major. You know One of the old fashioned types.
JM: Right. Right.
ID: So, I went in there and met [unclear] and he said, ‘Sorry. There’s no place for you.’
JM: Oh yeah.
ID: And I said, ‘Come on.’ Anyhow, a couple of days later HH Arnold Junior descended on them. He was President of them, and he said, ‘What are you doing here?’ ‘I’m playing golf.’ He said, ‘Why aren’t you learning?’ And I said, ‘What’s to learn’ Not that I know anything immediately. So he said, ‘Leave it with me.’ And within an hour I’d had a call to say to come up to the President’s office. The local president’s office saying that, ‘We want you to go to Bahrain and to train in Bahrain for six weeks and then we’ll see where we’ll place you. We have in mind the head of marketing in Beirut.’ But in actual fact the fella that was in charge of transport got there ahead of me, being British and being very pompous. He took advantage and they sent him off to Beirut and left me. And I had to fight my way through.
JM: Through.
ID: But I did every job I could get. Every time they gave me a job they said you take this fella and you learn about it. So everybody they gave me I learned his job. Could do it in a week or so because it was fairly simple jobs basically. It was just a matter of following up.
JM: Well, being used to organising yourself as a pilot and being responsible and organising others I mean, you know, you’ve got the basic skills there for any management role that you would need to do so I mean.
ID: Yeah. It came quite easily to me to be a manager. And so I was, apparently, I had and still have at ninety four a gift for working with people and I was able to [noise on microphone] oh I wondered what that was —
Others: Just loosening them up.
JM: So, you ended up with ten years all up.
ID: Ten years in Bahrain.
JM: Bahrain.
ID: And then in Bahrain I did all kinds of jobs but most were with maintenance planning of major shut downs. Many millions of dollars being spent and I was in planning. That was well before the days of computers and laptops.
JM: Yeah. That’s right. A very different work environment.
ID: You had to be able to do it. Worked out this is what will happen if you do this. So —
JM: Yeah. So then from Bahrain you went to New York. You had fifteen years in America.
ID: Hang on. I went to New York. I was in Bahrain for ten years.
JM: Ten years and then from there to —
ID: From there I’m sure I went to [pause] oh I know what happened. I won the first two Bahrain Opens at golf.
JM: You won the —
ID: What’s called the Bahrain Open it was then.
JM: Oh ok.
ID: That was the Bahrain open golf champion.
JM: Oh yeah. Yeah.
ID: And because I won them I think I got to know the president better.
JM: Yeah.
ID: And he called me up and said, ‘What are your plans?’ And I said, here it is what I’d done so far, ‘And really, I expected to be long since to be marketing somewhere.’ And then you know in a matter of days the call came forward to ask would I like to be head of training and development for Caltex Worldwide.
JM: Right. Gosh.
ID: Based in New York.
JM: New York.
ID: And I was there in New York for I think it was about ten years. Give or take six months or so. In which time I did a lot of travelling for Caltex. And I ran maintenance courses. Management training. Mostly as a organiser really and doing it but in many cases the organisation ones I liked. I used to do them myself.
JM: Yes, well that —
ID: That was just a small part. Right. Then they came with up a — when I was in New York I decided to come away with a golden handshake to cut back on everyone and I said I’ll take that and they said, ‘No we don’t mean you.’
JM: Oh ok.
ID: I said, ‘Well this is what it says. It’s all written down there anybody and everybody is allowed to apply.’ So that’s what actually happened, I applied and they said, ‘Well, you can’t go.’ And I said, ‘Well you shouldn’t have put it on paper like that.’
JM: Yeah.
ID: Because everybody else sees that I was turned down for being too good rather than I’d got a right.’ So, I did that.
JM: You did that and as you say you did a lot of travelling and a lot of courses.
ID: I’d done quite a few organisational development programmes as such.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
ID: Training enroute in different countries.
JM: Countries yeah.
ID: And I ended up going to Kenya for the best part of a year.
JM: Yeah.
ID: And I was at Nairobi.
JM: That would have been a very different experience because I mean.
ID: It was indeed.
JM: We’re talking about you know mid to late [pause] mid–eighties. I mean it was a very different.
ID: Well it was most unusual in the firstly I was in the jungles in Sumatra and then I was in the desert of Bahrain and then I went to New York and then from New York. Well I obviously did well, or I wouldn’t have been selected to —
JM: To go to Kenya to –. Do, to run the.
LD: I remember as a little girl flying with you in the DC3 to Sumatra dad. Along the line. And then we went down into the oil caps high in Sumatra. Down that, on a small punt through the river and then there had been this — because you guys had gone shooting tigers.
ID: We had to go by boat from the airport where the plane landed to a terminal along the river. Siak River it was called. Along the Siak. I’ll never forget it because the river was the same colour as tea.
JM: Oh, my goodness.
ID: Funny that. That was stained. The water was stained.
JM: Stained.
ID: Run off the mountains and that. Anyhow, the point was I was trying to make that after that I was offered this, not offered. I took this golden handshake. Wasn’t much money in those days but I took it and I hadn’t been away from there for more than six weeks and I was down here in Sydney. And a phone call came and they said they want you to go to Indonesia for a year.’ I said how long?’ A year. What will they want for a year? Oh you’ll find out there. You’ll go there for a year. Your job is basically to train the Indonesians to take over completely. So, it took me six years, but I got it done. And [pause]
JM: So that was in Malaysia. Indonesia. Then from there you got another call and had to go off to Oman for twelve — for about a year. Is that right?
ID: Yeah. Well what actually happened was we were going to go and build a refinery in Bangkok. But if you remember back there was a big fire in a place called Bhopal in India.
JM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
ID: Ok. And the insurers withdrew the money that they’d put up for us to build that refinery.
JM: Yeah.
ID: So, I was suddenly without a job.
JM: Right.
ID: So, they said they were establishing a Tiger Force and would I be part of the Tiger Force? And the first place to go would be Oman for six months.
JM: Two months.
ID: Which turned out to be two and a half years. Which turned out to be very nice. I enjoyed Oman. We both liked it.
JM: Right. Right. Because I guess at this stage it would just be you and Pat. The children would be off doing their own things well and truly by this stage.
ID: Yeah.
JM: And then so you had the time in Oman and then a short break again and then Thailand.
ID: Well a short break. I can’t remember the exact time but certainly I’d already done the job.
JM: Yeah.
ID: In Oman and I’d come home. I think I was home for about six months and the phone goes. New York. New York wants you.
JM: Yeah.
ID: What for [unclear] and I’ll tell you and then they turned around and said we want you to go to Thailand to open up training manager.
JM: Right.
ID: Whilst in charge of development. All levels of people who wanted, who knew, and it was what we called a star petroleum refining company.
JM: Right.
ID: And the actual — the actual running of the place was done by a couple of engineers, a managing director and his vice president but I was responsible for human aspects of it.
JM: Right. Right. And then finally you went to Japan.
ID: In between I did quite a few.
JM: A few bits. Yes.
ID: Specialised trips.
JM: Specialised short trips. Yeah.
ID: Trained on.
JM: Sort something out.
ID: We were the first people who engineered simulated management programme and because it was so successful they decided I could stay on doing that and I had one computer specialist who was very good and myself and we were the mainstays behind this Tiger Force and somewhere between Oman and Thailand. Yeah. Oman to Thailand. And then Thailand we built a new refinery completely and I had the responsibility of manpower training and providing the man power and basically trying to stop Shell who had been there for quite a bit longer from stealing the only trained people in the country. And we did, and I got that job done and went home and I thought it was all over because by this time I was about seventy six or so. And —
JM: Amazing.
ID: I got a call again and, ‘We want you to go to Japan.’ And I said, because I liked Japan, and I looked forward to that, ‘Can my wife come?’ ‘Cause I took Pat out to all these places.
JM: Places. Yeah.
ID: Yeah. Well, they said, ‘Yeah. Alright.’ I said, ‘When do we go?’ ‘Tomorrow.’
JM: Nothing like a bit of notice.
ID: Yeah. So, I went off with — with [pause]
LD: [unclear]
ID: Having done the job in Thailand I then was involved in this Tiger Force group and was busy trying to downsize the way the Japanese run their refineries and what was happening was they were buying you know twice as much as they should have done and they had far too, far too many people for what work there was. And the men would stay back till 8 o’clock at night shuffling paperwork from one to the other. But Pat and I were there for — oh I don’t know — fourteen months. Something like that. We thoroughly enjoyed it. We like japan very much.
JM: That’s good.
ID: Of course the men aren’t nearly as nice as the women. And the women helped Pat a lot.
JM: You’ve had an incredible life and it’s just amazing to think you continued to work in such influential positions for so long. it’s just a tribute to your whole —
ID: Well an attitude to work. And of course —
JM: Well attitude to work but it’s the skills. It’s the ability to relate to people. It’s the ability to deliver. It’s the ability to manage. It’s all of those things and I think that comes back.
ID: Well they all —
JM: And explains why you survived. You know, I mean, it’s the people —
ID: They came all together again and well I was successful was I wouldn’t have been working till I was seventy eight.
JM: That’s right. Amazing. So there’s just one other thing that I would ask out of an interest in your golf. So, you when did you first start to play golf? When you were a boy back in Maitland or —?
ID: My father was a very good golfer.
JM: Right. So —
ID: Played [off scratch?]. ]
JM: Right.
ID: Back in Maitland
JM: Right.
ID: But he wouldn’t let us you know play because he didn’t want us around when he was having his booze and God knows what. But the point was I did get a few hits in so I knew which end of the club to hold kind of thing.
JM: Yeah. Did you caddy for him at any time? Did you caddy for him at any time?
ID: No. I don’t think so.
JM: So, you didn’t get a chance to see him.
ID: I played with him.
JM: You played with him but —
ID: But not against him.
JM: Not against him. Yeah. Yeah.
ID: The last time we played together was in Avalon in Sydney.
JM: Oh ok.
ID: A course there.
JM: Yeah. A little public course yeah. Yeah. Because again being a good golfer often works very well in the corporate world. And I think that’s evidenced by the fact that –
ID: That corporate role as such but the fact that you could go to a place and then meet with the managing director of the company.
JM: That’s right. Yes.
ID: And talk about golf.
JM: That’s right.
ID: And not about anything else.
JM: Exactly.
ID: That was enough to get you through the front door. Put it that way.
JM: That’s right. Well as I say and the perfect example is when you were saying about Bahrain.
ID: Yeah.
JM: That’s right.
ID: You kind of soon found that you were capable. What you were capable of.
JM: Yes.
ID: And you concentrated on that.
JM: That’s right. Well I think we’ve covered an enormous amount of territory today and I appreciate so much the effort that you’ve made because I know you’ve not been well. And it’s just to put –
ID: My main problem is just sitting down.
JM: To sit down for too long. That’s right. That’s why I want you to be able to have a little time —
ID: They tell me I’ve got –
JM: To finish up. So, I think we’ll conclude there and as I say thank you very very much Ian for all.
ID: Jean. It’s been a pleasure to have you here.
JM: Thank you.
ID: And feel welcome to call by any time.
JM: Thank you very much.
ID: And ask any questions you want and I’ll give the right answer.
JM: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Thank you. So, we’ll finish it off there now. Ok.
ID: Ok.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ADenverI170221
PDenverI1704
Title
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Interview with Ian Denver
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:59:04 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Jean Macartney
Date
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2017-02-21
Description
An account of the resource
Ian Denver grew up in Australia and joined the Royal Australian Air Force as soon as he was old enough. After training he completed 60 operations with 625 Squadron and 156 Squadron. He met and married his wife, Pat who was an intelligence officer at 625 Squadron and returned to Australia after the war. He joined QANTAS and became the youngest international captain with the company.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Kenya
Kenya--Nairobi
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
156 Squadron
625 Squadron
aircrew
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancastrian
love and romance
Master Bomber
military ethos
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
sport
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/11158/PLambAM1509.2.jpg
31ffd0ebb2c172a89ffe42acd1b2e422
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/302/11158/ALambA170912.1.mp3
4eceb1fe534b4e8d1104247955ad9646
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lamb, Alexander
Alexander McPherson Lamb
Alexander M Lamb
Alexander Lamb
A M Lamb
A Lamb
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Alexander McPherson Lamb (b. 1925, 1827673 Royal Air Force), his decorations, album and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 15 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alexander Lamb and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-25
2017-08-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lamb
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AL: Start when you want of course.
JS: Yeah.
[pause]
AL: That’s quite incredible. The modern. I’m not, I was never dragged into the twenty first century unfortunately.
JS: Ok. Right. So, if I can just start. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach. The interviewee is Alistair Lamb. The interview is taking place at Alistair’s home [buzz] on the 12th of September 2017. Alistair, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed. Can you tell me a little about your life before the war?
AL: Well, I was born in the house I live in just now. I went to the local school. I left the school at fourteen as we all did in those days. I became a boy messenger in the War Department. The war of course was on and it was a case of just delivering correspondence around the various army units or army offices in the area. I was always interested in aircraft. My father died in ’41. My mother and I were still here at that time. As I say I was born in this house. Then I got a clerical position in the Civil Service. In the War Department. And then I decided I would have to do something. I didn’t want the army although my father was a regular army man. I went and volunteered for air crew. At least I went for an aircrew interview anyway and I was accepted which with all the usual rigmarole in Edinburgh up at, where was it now? I forget now. In Edinburgh where you had your RAF medical and all the rest of it and, ‘We’ll send for you.’ And shortly after that I was sent for and that’s where I joined the RAF. That would be when, I’m not, I’m not sure of the date, sort of thing. I think it would be sometime 1944 I think it would be I joined up. I can ascertain the details. And from then on it was a case of progression. I just went down there. I volunteered for aircrew. As you know you had to be a volunteer to be aircrew anyway. I didn’t think I was clever enough to be a pilot so I volunteered to be an air gunner. And that’s what I started off and finished up as an air gunner.
JS: Why did you, what, what took you to, to volunteering to be aircrew rather than something else?
AL: Well, I was mad keen on aeroplanes. Always had been. I used to build model aircraft as a young lad. And I didn’t want the army for some strange reason. I wanted to fly. So that’s why I volunteered for aircrew.
JS: So which, which squadron were you in?
AL: 15. It was a peacetime squadron. It had been a pre-war peacetime squadron. When I first started off I went to London to Aircrew Reception Centre at St John’s Cricket Ground. St John’s Wood. We stayed in St John’s Cricket Ground. Never been fussed in my life but some of the lads were so elated to be able to get into Lord’s. We were there about a fortnight to three weeks. We went from there to RAF Bridgnorth to do initial RAF training. Bridgnorth. Did our basic ground training at RAF station at Bridgnorth. If you passed the various tests then what you had you were then selected. You were then said, ‘Right. You’ll be aircrew and as an air gunner.’ Came home on leave and went back to RAF Stormy Down in Wales where I did my initial gunnery training. Stormy Down in Wales. I think I was four weeks, five. Three weeks. I can’t remember. You’ll see in my logbook. We left there and went to, we got our wings there. Our half wing there and our tapes. I came home on leave and I was posted then to 14 OTU Market Harborough for flying Wellingtons and to crew up. I don’t know if, do you know about the crewing position do you? There was no compunction of who you flew with. A very strange thing. The first time, when you went to what was called an Operational Training Unit you were all mixtures maxtures and you were given a fortnight to get together and at the end of the fortnight you did some ground training. Basic ground training. You were air crew by this time. You did some basic ground training and at the end of a fortnight you were sent in to a huge hangar. You were asked to crew up. You’d met most of the people that you crewed up with. Of course, all the usual rigmarole try and get a warrant officer pilot because he’s got a lot of flying hours and this sort of thing, you know. All these stories they were going about. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. The first chap I met at OTU was a chap from Edinburgh. Jock Bathgate, who was a gunner. So we crewed up straight away Jock and I. He was more, he went about with the wireless op. And that was the three of us went together. I didn’t do much in those days with them. They crewed up then and we went into a huge hangar at the end and the chief flying instructor stood up and said, ‘Are you all crewed up?’ We were all crewed up. ‘Right. That’s how you’ll start your training.’ We, and we were unfortunate in as much as that we had two navigators, one after the other who failed and didn’t pass out. They didn’t, they’d actually became navigators but that was as far as they went. They failed their OTU. They just couldn’t cope. I don’t remember all the story. And we kept piling hours up in Wellingtons and thought we’ll end up in the Far East if this goes on [laughs] And we then eventually had a skipper who was a warrant officer as I said and he was posted away so we were left without a pilot. So we were left without. And at that time this chap arrived. A sergeant from the French Air Force, Jack Darlow who had been, that’s another story but it doesn’t matter. He had been in the French Air Force and the usual way the wheels work what’s this chap with an English name doing in the French Air Force? He was re-mustered and we got him as a pilot and that’s how we more or less settled down after that. We lost two navigators while Jack was there. Just couldn’t cope. And then we crewed up and flew as a crew and flew in Wellingtons at OTU, 14 OTU Market Harborough. We passed out from there and then various leaves and what not we then went to [pause] where was it? 16, I can’t. 15? Heavy Conversion Unit anyway. And we were one of the few crews that were on Stirlings at the Conversion Unit. We went on to Stirlings in the Conversion Unit. We’d had, I think twenty one hours or something. I can’t remember. You need to ascertain from my logbook, on Stirlings which I liked very much actually. We went from there on to Lancs. I can’t remember the, you’ll get it in my logbook there. Then we crewed up and went on Lancs and that’s where we did our training on Lancs. We finished off there. We were at Wigsley. We had one or two scares at Wigsley. We were, intruders were coming across by that time. We were never affected much. They strafed the ‘drome once or twice at night. We then went from there. We were posted to 15 Squadron at Mildenhall in Suffolk. I think we went there, in March ’45 I think we’d be by that time. March ’45. And that’s where I finished up from Mildenhall in Suffolk and I stayed at Mildenhall and stayed with 15 Squadron. After a while we moved to Wyton and I still stayed with them. And I finished up, in ’47 it would be. Still had been at 15 Squadron all the time. The crews all broke up of course as you understand. The war finished and crews were getting broken up and sent over and things changed in the Air Force quite a bit then.
JS: So did you have a choice to stay on longer if crews were getting broken up and demobbed or —
AL: Some people were. I could if I’d wanted. I was an air gunnery instructor by this time. I could have stayed on. But I had a job in the Civil Service to come back to. My mother was herself at home and I thought well in four years time there’ll not be any air gunners and unless I could stay on flying I wasn’t going to stay in the air force. And I decided then when my demob group came to come out. A big drawback. A big drawback, you know. A big difference.
JS: Yeah. How did you get on with your crew?
AL: Very much indeed. They were a great crew. Very. I kept up with most of them for years after the war. The navi, I was the best man at the navigator’s wedding. I used to go to Edinburgh to visit the mid-upper. My skipper’s been across here with his family. We’re Just away this year to see most of his family. I’ve been out to Australia to meet him. The bomb aimer I never kept up with very much. Although we were in the same crew and that. The wireless operator, we kept very much with him. The rest of the crew more or less we went about together. Just, you either, you lose, you do lose contact. You did you know. I didn’t care much for them the wireless operator so I didn’t. He, he was brought into the crew by the other gunner actually, you know, ‘We’ll fly with you,’ sort of style. If there’s a lot of that doesn’t interest you just edit it out or take it out.
JS: No. Fine. Is there, is there a memorable operation you could talk about?
AL: Oh. I’m no hero. I think 15 Squadron did the last, Bomber Command did the last thousand bomber raid. We didn’t know at the time but there was, I’ve got it in my book, nine hundred aircraft I think was involved. That was the last thousand bomber raid, I think of the war. Most memorable would be supply dropping to the Dutch. We did three trips supply dropping to the Dutch. That’s one of the pictures up there. I think that’s about all really. The usual sort of run of the mill operational sorties. Nothing I could remember that was anything different from anything else, you know.
JS: So, so what happened on the, the Dutch supply one?
AL: Well, I don’t know if the history is known very well but evidently the Germans became very nasty and said, right, we’re going to do this and they cut off all the food supplies. The Dutch were actually starving. This would be in April. April. The end of April ’45. And the RAF said, ‘Well, we’ll supply you.’ The Americans did I think. They called it Chowhound or something. We called it Operation Manna. Food from heaven. And we did three trips dropping food supplies to the Dutch and the Germans were told that we were coming anyway and be it on their head if anything happened. We were never fired upon. I don’t know. Some crews said they were fired upon but we were certainly never fired upon. We were down to fifty feet most of the time dropping the supplies. I can tell you from my logbook. I think we did three. We did Valkyrie. I can’t remember the names. There were three pre stations we went to drop food supplies to the Dutch. After that we brought liberated prisoners of war back. Flew them home too. And then the war ended and 15, being a peacetime squadron we weren’t broken up. We stayed as a squadron. The crews all changed of course. If I’m boring you to tears stop me please. Then we said, oh we did the drop trials after the war. We got 617 aircraft with the twenty two thousand pounders. We did drop the trials with them. And then we had 617 aircraft up until I was demobbed. That’s no front turret, no top turret and the bomb bays all cut away. You’ll see pictures in my book over there. Then the crews broke up. Demob came along. You all had a demob group as you know. They asked people to stay on. I think I stayed on a little longer because I was gunnery leader by that time although I wasn’t commissioned. I was a warrant officer on the squadron. And then we flew with anybody more or less after that. A lot of pay, officers wanted to stay back on and they came back in again and the crews all mixed up and it was a different, a different attitude toward life at all altogether you know. You never knew. You didn’t really fly. I flew with Squadron Leader Baker double DSO double DFC. He had been a CO of, I forget the [unclear] of a squadron down south and he stayed on. Tubby Baker. I got on well with Tubby. He was a great guy. With different navigators. With different people in the crew. We’d only one gunner of course. We only had one tail one. We only had the tail turret at that time. And that was more or less just we did a lot of local flying. A lot of flying after the war. Did a lot of local flying. We did drop trials. We did all the drop trials on the U-boat pens. Shipping strikes after the war to find out what damage the bombs and things were doing. So it was all just a matter of just we were flying mostly every day.
JS: So, that was, that was live dropping you were doing on —
AL: Yeah.
JS: On old U-boat pens.
AL: That’s correct. We were dropping dummy four thousand pounders and I can’t remember, I can’t remember, I don’t know I think we dropped — I can’t remember, not twenty two thousand, but they were filled with sand to see what damage they would do. I can try to remember. They did, we did all the drop trials off ships. There was a ship moored in Portsmouth area and we bombed the ship with five hundred pounders and thousand pounders filled with sand. The idea being that they didn’t know at that particular time if an aircraft flying at fifteen thousand feet dropping a hundred pound, or a thousand pound bomb going into a ship what damage it would do. So we dropped these bombs until we actually hit the ship and then we went then, the Navy went aboard and put the equivalent amount of charge where that bomb had landed. Someone should have put where it landed and exploded it from there so they could tell an aircraft flying at fifteen thousand feet dropping a thousand pound bomb on a ship would do X amount of damage. I mean they knew this but this was all actual practice for them, you know, thing for them. So we did quite a bit of that. Dropping, [pause] U-boat pens we were dropping the ten thousand pounders and twelve thousand pounders on the U-boat pens but they weren’t filled. They were filled with sand. They, to see what penetration they would do. And that’s about, really all I can remember of that.
JS: So instead of dropping real bombs you actually dropped something the equivalent weight.
AL: That’s right.
JS: And then you put the charge where they ended up.
AL: Yeah. In the ship.
JS: So it was in effect the same thing.
AL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: But rather than —
AL: Basically, I can’t remember the full details. As you can imagine it was a long time ago. I think that was basically the idea. We never actually got, we never got the result of what happened. You know what I mean? You’re taxing my memory now.
JS: No. No. You’re doing, no you’re doing really good. You’re doing really good. Don’t worry about that.
AL: I don’t want to line shoot or anything. It’s very difficult because you can’t line shoot people that are in the forces. They know right away what you’re on about. No. No. No. No.
JS: So —
AL: I was fortunate I did a lot of that. As I said to you I was very fortunate to be able to do all that.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. So having flown Wellingtons, Stirlings.
AL: Stirlings.
JS: And Lancasters.
AL: And Lincolns.
JS: And Lincolns.
AL: For our crimes [laughs] they were a heap of junk.
JS: What were the, what were the plusses and minuses between them all?
AL: Oh, I think without a doubt the Lanc was the best aeroplane. There’s no doubt about that. But I liked a Stirling. I used to claim extra flying time because [laughs] [unclear] kids because we were airborne before everybody else. The only thing that brought it home to ourself is, it’s an aside, I don’t know if it’s worthwhile recording this but anyway. You’re up, by the time I started flying on ops there were so many aircraft that you more or less had your own aeroplane. So I mean you flew in the one aeroplane, your own aeroplane most of the time. Other people used it but you always, nearly always flew your own aircraft. And ours was Z-Zebra. You were always told there would be ops on. Not where you were going. You were told you were flying tomorrow. That was it. You was told that. And when we went out to detail I said to skipper, ‘Why are we not in our own aeroplane?’ I said, ‘I’ve been out here with the nav, with the wireless op, with the other gunner cleaning the Perspex.’ We used to, we used to clean our own Perspex. You did it where you went. You know. Anyway, we got to know the ground crew very well. I said, ‘Why are we not in our own aircraft? We should be in Zebra.’ Which was our aircraft. ‘Oh, that’s alright. Don’t worry. I’ll, I’ll tell the ground. I’ll tell them. I will.’ When we went out it was a new crew was flying in Willie. And we said, ‘No. No. We’ll go,’ so when the WAAF dropped us, we were, we were in buses to the aircraft. He said, ‘We’ll just walk across the road,’ he said, ‘And you go to Willie.’ So we went in our own aeroplane. And in those days you flew in tight formations when you got airborne. So the take-offs were fairly tight together so you could keep the flying times the same and you all formated up. You couldn’t taxi Mildenhall on the grass with a bomb load because it was boggy ground. You had to stay on the peri track. So we were in our own aircraft — Z -Zebra, and we took off more or less three together down the runway. And as we took down the runway you used to put the turret on the beam. The story was so it was in case the guns would fire. That was the story. Anyway, put the turret on the beam and as we got airborne it was all very quick and there was not much talking down and we were so busy up front you didn’t talk very much unless [unclear]. I saw Willie feather an engine. And as we climbed away of course we lost track of what was happening we found away, but there was Mosquitoes, I think, I may be wrong. I can’t remember. I think they was, they were dropping four thousand pounder markers. I can’t remember. I maybe thought, maybe I’ve got confused. Anyway, as we pulled away there was this ginormous explosion and as we got airborne, as we were forming up there was an aircraft, and Willie was missing from our three. Thought no more about it. Just that was something had happened. That must be due to the fact, it doesn’t matter anyway. And what we discovered when we came back of course we were logged to fly in Willie. The ground crew were, ‘Christ, Willie’s been shot down. Willie had blown up on take-off. I don’t know the whole story. There was rumours and rumours and rumours. But as far as I can remember they lost an engine on take-off on Willie. Now, with three engines and a full bomb load and fuel you could get airborne. You could get airborne. There’s no doubt about that if you had enough power to get airborne. But I think somebody said they feathered another engine. I don’t know. I can’t honestly remember the details at the time but they went in, in near Barton Wood I think they went in. But there was a village quite near. They blew up. The aircraft blew up and they were all killed. That’s the only sort of thing that brings it home to you. You remember it could have happened to you. It might not have happened to us, I don’t know. But at that, that, that’s what, that’s the only sort of real thing I really you know. Didn’t talk much about it at the time.
JS: Yeah.
AL: I must admit. It’s not really great but you were just asking me so I’m telling you. It’s not worth recording things like that, you know.
JS: I’ve heard stories about difficulties with the Perspex and the turrets and being able to see through it and whatever and stories about the people took the Perspex out of the turrets as well.
AL: We had moved the turret. We had the Perspex taken out of the tail turret. We had the Perspex taken out of the tail turret. At the back. At the front. The whole panel. That all came out. It wasn’t much difference to the coldness anyway. We still had the side Perspex in. Somewhere else you see that a dot on the Perspex could be an aeroplane. You didn’t know so you had to try and keep the thing down you know. That’s why you’d get the, the Perspex cleaning kit. You were usually were out cleaning. It definitely, it varied. That wasn’t part of your duties but if you weren’t flying you went out and did that, you know. If you weren’t flying you see you went back to the crew’s centre and just wait to see what was happening next. It’s difficult to really try and remember clearly. You know.
JS: No, that’s, no. That’s fine.
AL: It’s a long long time ago you’ve got to say.
JS: That’s fine. You mentioned that you, that you got on well with the ground crew.
AL: Aye. Aye.
JS: So was that the same ground, you said if it was your crew and it was your aeroplane.
AL: Aye.
JS: Was that in effect the same ground crew that you saw.
AL: Yeah. Well, of course there might be two people or three people share an aircraft. I don’t remember that. But I know we knew the ground crew quite well. Aye. Aye. Aye. With some, most of, most of the ground crew were flight sergeants and sergeants were peacetime regulars. Not them all but a lot of them were. We, our flight sergeant was a, had been a peacetime regular anyway, you know. And I don’t know what he was but that’s what he was. And we knew the ground crew quite well. Chatted away to them. We knew them. They were very good.
[pause]
JS: So when it came up to, you said you stayed on after hostilities ended.
AL: Aye.
JS: So do you want to tell me a wee bit about what brought you to leaving the RAF then and just what you, what you did after the war?
AL: Well, I left the RAF because I had a job to come home to in the Civil Service. Although I wasn’t established by that time. And also the fact that my mother was herself at home. There seemed to be, there was talk about decanting at that time. I think they were trying to, people had a big house, asked you to go in to a smaller. I can’t remember. This was a sort of thing in the back of my mind. Is that still being recorded? No. No. This was still in the back of my mind. Anyway, I decided to come out. A big drop in wages. A big drop completely. I was a warrant officer by that time. I was on, what was I on? Twelve and six a day, I think. All the different wages you see. Pilots, navigators and bomb aimers as warrant officers they would be on twenty one bob a day. Gunners were poorly paid. We were on, I would be on twelve. I was on twelve and six a day at that time. Anyway, came out and went back to Civil Service. The War Department. And you were told more or less you’ll have to sit the Civil Service exam if you want to stay in the Civil Service. And I wasn’t very bright at school. I mean I was an average person. I wasn’t an academic and I had to sit the Civil Service exam at Stirling Castle [laughs] A whole crowd of us went there. And a lot of [unclear] out. It was the time of all the trouble out in India too. You know about that was ’46 ’47 when India were all breaking up. One of the questions was, “Write all you know about India.” The Indian conflict. And I said to this guy, coming to the car I said, ‘How did you get on?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘All I know about India was Bengal matches and Bengal tigers.’ Well, you see, I mean [laughs] that was all. Anyway, believe it or not I passed the Civil Service exam. And at that time it was a general exam. You weren’t sitting for any particular thing. And I was posted to Social Security. What was it called in those days? Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance I think it was called and being, and being in that as a, when I came out of the Air Force as a non-established civil servant. I was, it was the War Department. When I went in I joined in the War Department. When I went in, ‘You’d better transfer over because the War Department is shutting down.’ I went into what they called the Department of Pensions and National Insurance. And I was there as a junior, as a clerk by at that time and when I passed the Civil Service exam I went back in to that but they were posting people all over and in those days they weren’t very kind to you. You’re posted to so and so. If you don’t want to go you’ll just have to pack it in. So I was posted to Elgin. My mother was at home herself and I thought well this is not much good at all. How can I manage to keep a house going? One thing. Anyway, to cut a long story short I went to Elgin and that was my first established post in the Civil Service was Elgin. And, and then I was able to get a compassionate posting or a transfer posting nearer to home. And the nearest I could get was Alloa and I went to Alloa. And I was in Alloa for ten years. And then a promotion. I was fortunate enough to get Stirling. I came back to Stirling and sat, went on interview boards of course by that time and I was lucky enough to get to stay in Stirling and promotion came along in Stirling. One chap I knew he went to [pause ] I forget where he went to. Grangemouth. I can’t remember. And I was lucky enough to have his post as an EO in Stirling. And I stayed in Stirling until, until I came out which was quite fortunate.
JS: That’s good. That’s good. You, when you, after the war how, how had you felt as a Bomber Command veteran you were treated? What was the feeling towards Bomber Command when you came out at the end of the war?
AL: I think it was alright. I think they were quite pleased to know you’d been an air gunner and all the rest of it. And of course there was the usual sorry about air gunners lasted two days at the time. That was a great rumour, you know. I think everyone was quite ok, I think. Aye. I don’t, I don’t think there was no, no. Everybody was sort of talking at that time about being in the forces and I’d been in the forces. You met everybody — Army, Navy, Air Force you know and you mingled with your work colleagues, two or three work colleagues what had been in the forces with me as well you see. So no. I think you settled in not too bad. It took a while to settle in, you see. You got a little money. I couldn’t afford a car, or a bike or anything. A push bike was about as much as you could afford. You know. It was good to be home of course. That was the point. My mother, being a widow of course you know. And a very — this shouldn’t be recording us. No. I hope not [laughs]
JS: Yeah. We’re still going.
AL: Oh, well.
JS: Shall I stop?
AL: Stop it. I’ll tell you some other things.
JS: That’s fine. Just, just hang on a second.
AL: To fill you in for your own background information.
JS: Let me just stop this.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alexander Lamb. Two
Creator
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James Sheach
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALambA170912, PLambAM1509
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:28:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Alexander Lamb left school in Edinburgh and became a messenger for the War Department. He then took a clerical post with the Department before reaching the age to volunteer for the RAF. He trained as an air gunner and was posted to RAF Mildenhall before moving with the squadron to RAF Wyton. Their aircraft was Z-Zebra and one day he heard that they were to fly in W-Willie. He protested and wanted to fly in their usual aircraft. They did fly in Z-Zebra and on that operation W-Willie crashed on take-off.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Suffolk
14 OTU
15 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
crewing up
ground crew
Lancaster
Lincoln
military ethos
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wyton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/306/3463/AMooreR160727.1.mp3
6916342becb8f2ec899823178f5b9e73
Dublin Core
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Title
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Moore, Raymond
R Moore
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Raymond Moore (1609170 and 179383 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Moore, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IL: Ian Locker. I’m interviewing Ray Moore at his home in Sowerby, Thirsk. Right, so Ray, um, tell us a little bit about your early life.
RM: Early life — where, where from?
IL: From you, you, you were born in Sussex?
RM: Yes.
IL: Tell us a little bit about your family and how, how you came to join the RAF.
RM: Well, I’ll only repeat what I said.
IL: Absolutely.
RM: Exactly what — again, I wasn’t thrilled by the war. I remember it very distinctly because my father and two brothers — my two brothers were in the — they called it the —
Sarah: Home Guard? No?
RM: Well, my father got — had been recalled for the covers [?] in other words, he’d done about fourteen years’ service in India and then he went to, he was posted to Gallipoli. He was wounded in 1915 and came back to England and he was in hospital, hospital in Esher, in Esher. That’s in Surrey and that’s where he me my mother but that was just at the beginning. And then he went in the Territorials. They joined in 1938 so they were the first up and the last picture, the last thing I remember of them, I was — they were all at home this particular day, and the last thing I remember I went into the dining room and they were all stood with their arms around one other. It was very moving, was that. And, um, then — so that passed and you didn’t — there was no reality to it even then. And then on the Sunday morning at 11 o’clock on — when Chamberlain said — it still didn’t ring a bell. I still wasn’t — it, it didn’t mean anything. I remember that Sunday morning and hearing Chamberlain and my mother was sat weeping, as they did in them days I suppose, I don’t know, but she was, I remember she was, she was crying and I thought, ‘Well, it’s a war.’ You know and, and honestly at that age, and I was fifteen, at that age you didn’t, you didn’t say, ‘Oh, there’s a war.’ It’s Hitler. It’s Germany. It’s Nazi Germany and I didn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe that we were at war but my father and brothers had already gone but it didn’t ring a bell until about, let’s see that’s 1940. I’m trying to think of the dates. In 1941 there were three of them gone and in 1941 my, er, brother that was older than me — no. A sister that was older than me, Joan, she decided to join the WAAFS. Because at some period of time, you know, women had to sign on as well and she was eligible. She was about twenty-two, twenty-three and so she was the next one to go and to me it was, ‘Ta-ta Joan.’ You know, that was — and then life set again. You started to — some of the things that happened. Because we never had a daily paper because I think the Daily Herald was on the go in those days and so, um, and being a mixed family of, of politics — my father was a conservative and my brothers when they came out, two of them had turned and flying the red flag. That was hilarious was that after the war. But — and so, er, and then it went on and then a brother went and I sort of looked round and instead of eleven of us sat down at that, in that, you know — and it was a fairly big dining room Sarah, wasn’t it? And the dining table, instead of there on a Sunday it was suddenly, suddenly empty and that was when it struck me that something was wrong and that was the time when I really thought about joining up but the age was eighteen and I was damn sure I wasn’t going in the Army or the Navy and I, I’d made up my mind. But as I say there was something by the Government that if you had — you know, there were a lot of big families but if you had so many in that were in the Services you, you were exempt and I should have been exempt. And that rattled my mother more than anything and so that was, you know, I joined up like and that’s when it started. All of it started. I have to admit I was leaving home and the Army didn’t appeal to me in as much as that I’d lost brothers and sisters and my father were all in the services. Because we had a good family life.
Sarah: None of them were killed.
RM: Never lost one of them, no.
IL: Remarkable isn’t it. So had you left school?
RM: Oh, I’d left school.
IL: So did you leave school at fifteen or —
RM: Fourteen.
IL: Right. So, so were you working on the family farm? Or —
RM: No, no, no. I did that, er, I did —
Sarah: What was your first job?
RM: First job, riding a bicycle, pushing — I worked for a butcher, just delivering, just an ordinary menial job. And that was the first, yeah, that was the first year and going to work then nine to five. [cough] I’m trying to think how old I was as well. And about a year or it might have been —
IL: I’m going to move that a little bit nearer to you.
RM: Sorry.
IL: No, it’s OK. [unclear]
RM: It might have been, um, [unclear] I think with there being, when the war was on, 1939, and there was, er, Joan was at home and Frank and so there were those at home so really I hadn’t much care, no idea. I was a good scholar as well. I was a good scholar, even if I say myself.
Sarah: And that’s where your engineering background —
RM: It was. It was really because, um, when I was in, when I joined up, and I was mixing with engines and airframes and things it seemed to — it was something that I wanted to do, wasn’t it? And to come top of the class at the end of thirty-six weeks I thought it was pretty good going. Anyway, er, fifteen and I got to know one or two. I, in that respect I was a bit of a loner, in respect of mixing and things like that and not bothering to look for the future, and I say I couldn’t have cared less and my father was in the Army so he couldn’t boot my backside and tell me to get a job. There, was there and then I went to a Jim Feasts [?]. I even remember his name and they were a greengrocers and all I was doing there was delivering green groceries, groceries and whatever you’re talking about. No, it was greengrocery wasn’t it? That was Jim Feast and that was awful but I suppose I was mixing with different people and Worthing’s a very snobbish place, you know.
IL: I’ve been.
RM: Pardon?
IL: I’ve been.
RM: Oh, you know Worthing.
IL: Not well.
RM: I finished there. I shouldn’t be — and then I worked for Jim Feast until, well, I think he told me to beggar off and, um, they were menial things, weren’t they? And then across The Broadway there was, they called them Fletchers [sound of aircraft]. Now that can go down. They called them Fletchers, the butcher, and so I was riding around then. And I became very friendly with a chap and he was the same as I was. We were the same age and doing the same jobs, riding around and delivering errands, and he said to me one day, he said — and it was time to come up when we were coming up to seventeen and then around that area and he said, ‘By the way.’ He said, ‘I’m going to join, I’m going to join the Navy.’ He said, ‘What do you think?’ I said, ‘I wouldn’t join the Navy if you paid me.’ I said, I said, ‘I don’t want to go.’ He said, ‘Oh, I’m going to join the Navy.’ And just up here they call it Teville Road. He said, ‘Up here are the Naval Cadets.’ But it’s ridiculous isn’t it? Because when he said Naval Cadets I thought to myself, ‘What do you do?’ He said, ‘Well, we learn the Morse code and with your arms and hands.’ And I thought — ‘And march and do things like that.’ And bearing in mind there was also a junior Air Cadets but I didn’t even think about the Air Cadets because — and then he was telling me, he said, ‘Why don’t you come up?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to join the Navy.’ He said, ‘Oh, come on.’ He said, ‘It will just be a bit of fun.’ So, I said, ‘Oh, right.’ So, I went up this particular time and went into this hall and I saw these, er, do you know what I mean? There was all these things to learn the Morse code, with di, di, di, da, dat. And I looked at them and I thought — because a friend of mine had joined the air crew and he’d gone as a wireless op and I thought, ‘That’s not a bad thing. There’s a place here I can learn the Morse code and be one in front.’ So, he said — anyway, I thought it would be interesting, sat down and they had about six in a line. I sat down and I got interested, listening to it, and I thought, ‘This will do.’ But this mate of mine, he kept saying, ‘Join.’ He wanted me to join the Naval Cadets and I didn’t want to join and that was when really that I made up my mind. That was about the time that I’d gone down to the recruiting office to join the, to join the Air Force and that was really at the beginning where I made up my mind that I wanted to be air crew and that, that was the last job I think, driving around. They called him Fletcher, that butcher, and that’s, that’s all I did but I think if my dad had been home he would have pushed me because, as I say, I was fairly good, I was fairly good at school. I was. I can wrap anything up, you know, and it seems a shame really. You know, I don’t I mean that I was wasted or anything like that but I know that had I’d gone on I would have gone on to Worthing High School but nothing appealed to me. There was a war on and honestly, that’s the honest truth, there was nothing appealed to me. Nothing at all appealed to me in — accept when it came for the service time to join the Services. That’s all it was.
IL: OK. So when you joined you were seventeen but there was problems because you had to have your mother’s permission I understand.
RM: That’s right.
IL: So, what happened?
RM: What happened?
IL: Yeah. What happened?
RM: Well, I did tell you.
Sarah: But you’re being recorded now dad.
RM: Oh, I see. Oh, well. Well, we didn’t fall out of course not. You can look at that. That’s my family. Oh well, we had a few words of course but nothing, there was nothing dramatic. There was nothing dramatic about it because my mother was a loving woman wasn’t she? I mean, it was her family, her life, but to — but I don’t think even to this day, looking back, that she ever thought that, um, it would come to me signing up. I don’t think she ever thought that I would join up until I left and I got on the train from West Worthing to Victoria. I mean, to be out of, to get out, to go out of Worthing was when I played football. I used to play schoolboy international, um, yeah, I played schoolboy international. We lost —
Sarah: Where did you do your final?
RM: West Ham. No, we didn’t play. We got knocked out, Sarah. West Ham beat us in the semis at — where? What’s the name of their ground?
IL: Upton Park.
RM: Yes. That’s it and it was an absolute sensation because to play schoolboy international was actually a very good thing because when you ran on the pitch and there was six thousand boys there and we ran on the pitch at Upton Park and these boys — you get six thousand boys, six thousand boys there and I can understand — it was absolutely wonderful. Anyway I was thirteen at the time. But going on to where, talking about my mother, it was, it was very disturbing but on, not from my point of view because I knew what I was going to do. It was something. It was something. There was a blooming war on but the papers and you could hear them give the news out. It, it didn’t strike me as being anything. All I wanted to do then was be in the Air Force and to fly. That was my only ambition was to fly and I failed the first time. What did they call it? I failed. I put in for a pilot and I failed as a pilot. I wasn’t good enough. I wasn’t just good enough. That was all there was to it. I know that looking back. I think if I’d genned up on it a bit more and waited maybe a couple of months.
Sarah: How did they sort out who was going to be a flight engineer and who was going to be a wireless operator?
RM: By what I had to do. By what you had to do. And you talk about square pegs and round holes, Sarah, and that was what you had to do. I went up to, ah, North London. It’s where they, where the Lord’s Cricket Ground is, somewhere up there, and you go before the — oh, I forgot to tell you that. That’s what happened when I was called up, before I was called up rather, that’s what happened, and you sit down. You go into this classroom and that as well, I had a medical, of course. I mustn’t miss that out, of course you did, and you sat down and it was sort of noughts and crosses, you know. I can’t remember a lot, but you sat down and with a — now I’ve got to just try and think. Anyway I failed as a pilot and so the next best thing —
IL: But at this time you were still only seventeen? This was —
RM: Pardon?
IL: This was between signing up and being called up you had this, like, kind of selection.
RM: That’s right, exactly. I’d forgotten, yeah, of course I did. And as far as I think now I was just put down as air crew. I can’t seem to think that I was classified then because as an air gunner — I knew I wasn’t going to be an air gunner because the air gunners were in and out. They had a six month course. They were up in — they had a very short course, did an air gunner, a rear gunner and a mid-upper gunner. They had a very short — you know, it was awful really. They just learned how to shoot and they put them in, put them in a bomber. And honestly, it was as simple as that.
IL: You also, you also had this thing with your mother, um, she had to sign something, I understand?
RM: Oh yes, yes. She did, oh yeah. Well, I got this paper from — I went down to the recruiting office — and I thought — there again, I knew nothing about it. And I thought you could just sign on the line and they took you but when they came to the ages bit, um, it struck me as not being right, but you, you could not get into the Services. You could get in [emphasis] into the Services, before you were eighteen, but not flying. You could not get into air crew unless you signed up. That’s what it was with me anyway. And to get her to — she just said, ‘You’re not going.’ And that was it. And in practice she’d made her mind up that I wasn’t going to join the aircrew. But my mother then at that time I don’t really think that she knew what air crew was. Honestly I do. I believe that. She didn’t know what air crew was in that respect.
IL: So, how did you get round your mum not signing?
RM: Um, oh, oh well, I waited for a bit, oh yeah, when she wouldn’t sign it. I mean, she was my mother and what could I do? I can’t, even in those days, I mean, well, in those days you had to do what your mother and father said, as far as I was concerned anyway, and she was, um, she was up in arms. I knew she held it — she sort of realised that I’d made my mind up. That’s, that’s what it was all about. And I wanted to, I wanted to join and I she — I can’t tell you what the paper was. It was a sheet of paper with — that you had to sign and I, I forged her signature. Yeah, I did. I practiced writing Clare Moore and, um, I don’t think to this day that she knew what I’d done except when my papers came. I mean, I don’t think she was aware that, I don’t think she was aware because I didn’t turn round to her and say I’d done it. I wouldn’t have done that. Well, I wouldn’t Sarah. And, er, as I say I took it back to that, down Chapel Road, that recruiting office there and just handed it in and, ‘We’ll let you know.’ Sort of thing.
IL: So, what happened when you eventually got called up and had to leave?
RM: And had to leave?
IL: Had, had to leave home. What did your mum do?
RM: Oh, well, that — well, my sister Dorothy, we were good friends, as brother and sister, and she still does to this day. She thinks I’m marvellous. You know, that sort of, her brother, and, um, well, I packed a little suitcase and all I packed in was probably a razor and whatever, you know, things you need, I suppose. I know at that time my mother was very reluctant to pack anything in. You didn’t need anything. You just had, I just had this little case and I guess she packed in soap, a flannel and things like that. That’s all there was, you know. Said, ‘Cheerio.’ And she said, ‘You can beggar off home.’ I remember that. And then when I got to the bottom of the road I looked back. Waving. And I got on a train and went to Victoria, Victoria across to — no, the RTO met us at, um, at Victoria Station. You went into the, what they called, the RTO, that’s the Railroad Transport Offices, the RTO, and I went in there and told them, like, and they took us by coach then to Cardington. And from Cardington — was there two days. That was awful really at Cardington because there were thou— there seemed hundreds, hundreds of airmen milling around in civvies, you know, and it was a funny carry on and it really surprised me, in as much as, over the Tannoy (they had a Tannoy) and it was like a homing thing and it called out on, on the microphone, ‘Is there a,’ and I’ll never forget this, ‘Is there a Raymond Moore here?’ And amongst all the hubbub, you know, I didn’t take a lot of notice and I hadn’t met anybody but I heard it again and again and I thought, ‘That’s me.’ Anyway, er, I found out where it was coming from and what it was — I can’t explain to you how they found out — but what it was somebody more knowledgeable than me and up to date and what it was you could go to and find, there was a list of some sort you, you could go and find and look down this list, like, anybody from Worthing? With their names on it and my name was on it and what — and they called in — oh, I can’t think of it. No good, can’t think, and what happened was, he called in. He was calling, ‘Raymond Moore.’ And I found him and found him and of course he came up and he said, ‘Oh, good. Thank God. There’s somebody here from Worthing.’ And he was a horror. I never liked him because, well, because it weren’t so much — I’d met him through the football and he came from a school called Sussex Road and I came from St Andrews and so there was a bit of competition of the boys from St Andrews and the boys from Sussex Road and I never liked him. And he said, oh, he said, ‘Oh, what school?’ I said, ‘I was at St Andrews.’ And, you know, St Andrews was a bit of a snobbish school. Well, it was a bit of a snobbish school, it was honestly. St Andrews it was. We thought we were a cut above Sussex Road and it was true and, um, but I didn’t want to be with him somehow and I sort of edged away from him and I never met him again. He was posted somewhere else you see. I was posted to Skegness to do — I was there about eight weeks — square bashing and that was good. There again, it was something new wasn’t it, you know? Marching up and down. I even remember the corporal’s name, Corporal Passant, P A S S A N T, Corporal Passant. And we were billeted in houses on the seafront. It was marvellous, weren’t it? Home from home. And he was a very nice corporal, marched us up and down then and I then — we was just thrilled. We didn’t — there was no rifle drill or anything like that. We just had to learn. Well, I knew how to march but he was a professional and he taught us how to march properly. I’ll tell you this instance. I don’t know whether it matters, whether it goes on there or not, but it’s an incident and it struck me because, being brought up Church of England and fairly religious, church parade on a Sunday morning. There was a great big, seemed to me dozens of us, and each one was a platoon with thirty two men in and so this corporal then, as it come down the line, and you had to stand to attention but he’d call out then, ‘Fall out all Roman, fall out all Roman Catholics and Jews and other denominations.’ [slight laugh] Honestly, that’s the gospel truth, as true as I sit here. So I’m stood there and I thought — and of course, all those that were Roman Catholics and Jews and other denominations (what the other denomination was would be Methodist I suppose or something like that) and I’m stood there like and one or two — I saw one or two — falling out and I thought, ‘What’s goes on here?’ I thought there was only one religion, or two at the most. That would be Roman Catholics and Church of England.’ And that’s the honest truth. That’s how, that’s how I was educated, although that the school I went to, St Andrews, they called it a higher — there’s a name for it.
Sarah: Church School? Or a —
RM: Yes, they called it — and it was high church. It was between Roman Catholic and Jews [?]. It was in between but that didn’t make any difference to religion but you know what puzzled me? Every Sunday morning that corporal used to say — and it was a common thing and it caught on. Suddenly all the Church of England suddenly became Roman Catholics or Jews, whatever. It was a peculiar carry on and that is the truth.
Sarah: So they could fall out.
IL: Yes. So, they didn’t have to go to church parade?
RM: Yeah and they just wandered off and that, that is true that, and from — of course when I finished at square bashing I was sent to Cosford and that was eighteen months’ course on engines and that was hard. That was really hard. That was a hard course because when you’re — it’s like, taking maths. If you take maths at school it’s hard if you don’t concentrate and, taking the course on Merlin engines and Hercules engines, it struck me as being — seeing a massive engine there — and you had to learn the theory of it. I knew nothing. I didn’t even know what it looked like and to be thrown into something like that it was hard and I had to work hard if I wanted to — I did. I worked very hard, very, very hard.
IL: So, was that classroom and practical based?
RM: Yes, it was. It’s true. The practice, I was absolutely useless. Even now, right throughout my married life, and I was married for sixty-six years, and I’m telling you, I couldn’t knock a nail in without hitting my thumb. Now, it’s a standing joke in the family. Sarah knows. Don’t you Sarah?
Sarah: My mum was very good at decorating.
RM: The girls decorated and the lads. I could never ever learn anything in the house. It didn’t matter. Now, I don’t, I think it wasn’t, I think I lacked the knowledge of even knocking a nail in. I could never and of course my wife was the opposite. She was marvellous, you know. She had to be.
IL: I have a similar arrangement. [slight laugh]
Sarah: Very capable, was my mum.
RM: Yes, she was. And then from Cosford, I did eighteen weeks there and was posted to Halton, which was, it was the — from going from a lower form of AC1, AC2, LAC you went up then a bit higher because at Halton you had to finish off what you did at Cosford, you know, you know what I mean? It was a bit higher class if you got through and Halton’s in Buckinghamshire and Halton was the sound, it was the grounding for the regular Air Force. RAF Halton it was and that was nice there. We got marched about to a band there. They had their own band. Marched up for our dinners, from classrooms, marched back down again. It was quite good actually.
IL: How long were you there for?
RM: How long? So that was eighteen weeks, so four and a half months. How long was I? Oh, sixteen weeks.
IL: Right.
RM: Sixteen weeks at Halton, yeah, and that was another grind. It was, because, as I say it was a bit, it was harder.
IL: And did you get any leisure time in these places?
RM: No. It was just — well, only if you put in — well, just as an example was, we were billeted in huts and the — it was quite good really. It kept you on your toes. I was never lazy in doing them things but there was about — how many would there be? About fourteen beds in the hut and every Friday night it was bull [?] night and you had to dust your, all around your bed, and I seemed to get a lot of fluff round my bed [slight laugh] you know and then you had to polish the floor and that [emphasis] was the main thing. And you had to polish the floor because you got marks and the sergeant, the flight sergeant, would come round and he’d come round and look and if your, if your hut was good you got a mark of, I don’t know how they worked it, nine out of ten or something, and so after a couple of months your hut — and you worked hard and polished and all the bull you put in to it, and if you came top of the class you could put in for a weekend pass but they weren’t daft were they? You imagine thirty-six hours. Forty-eight hours from Friday until 23.00 hours on the Sunday night and they called that forty-eight hours. In the meantime — and you had to pay your own fare. So, I was living in Worthing and to get to Wolverhampton you had to do an awful lot. It was awfully quick because when my dad used to come home on leave and my mother would say, in a letter, she’d say your father will be coming on leave on such and such a day and he was billeted not far away up at Balcombe Tunnel [?] and, um, he was — so, I got information then so the idea was then if our hut was up on the list and a lot of them, bearing in mind, they lived farther away than that and so you couldn’t afford it. You couldn’t afford it. Your, your pay, you got three shillings a day or something like that, and so if you wanted to go on a weekend you had to save up to get your train fare. And so I would then write a letter and it was a dodge with me because when I wrote a letter to, to which you just had to write a note, ‘Dear Sir.’ Your commanding officer, ‘Dear Sir, I may request, can I request a pass because my father is coming home?’ It was a, it was a squid [?] wasn’t it? And put it in and to put a letter into the orderly room, ‘Dear Sir.’ I, I used to have it off pat saying that I was, um, how did I put it? Dear, Sir, Dear Sir. Oh, it was, it was a mushy letter and I always used to put in as my father is coming home on leave, and that was it, and because if you had a relative like that, you know what I mean? And so, any, any leave that I got that was the letter that I used to put in to the commanding officer, ‘Dear Sir, please may I put forward an application for a forty-eight hour pass to see my father who’s home on leave.’ And I used to put he’s a sergeant major in the eighth battalion of the Royal Fusiliers or something and I it went off pat, of course you did, and I got a forty-eight hour pass and it was the only time I screwed them [laugh] well, I did, you know. It was that little bit that — it was good was that.
IL: It’s not bad to get some time off.
RM: And then — but after I finished a Halton, that course there, I went down to St Athan and that was my final course and of course that was, that was a hard one there because for six weeks or eight weeks you had to write down the theory. It got down to the theory part of flying, the theory of flight, your engine power, and you didn’t even know what you were going to fly actually in them days. And there was another interesting thing that is worth putting down that I, I came top, or we’ll say I came nearly top. I know I was, I know, but at that time of course I was going to be a flight engineer and that was all there was to it. I was going to fly and that meant to finish it off I was going to be good and I intended, that was what I intended. Anyway, we were waiting, I’d got my tapes and braiding [?] that was good sewed it on and it came through then, we were in the billets one night and a corporal it was, the corporal came round and he said, he read four names out and my name was among them and where, where I was at St Athan, um, he said, he read four names out and he said, ‘Now then.’ He said, ‘This is optional.’ Have you ever heard of a Sunderland Flying Boat? No? Have you?
IL: I have, yes.
RM: Well, you know, well — and four of us were picked out then and this was a bit of excitement and they took us down to the, er, Solent on the Southampton waters to give us a trip in a Sunderland Flying Boat to see whether we liked it or not. And, oh boy that, you know, and to fly for the first time. But they were massive. To me they were massive. To be inside one of these things and they carried a crew of thirteen, you know. And, anyway they ferried us out to this Sunderland and, um, we climbed aboard and all the time, you know, I was very nearly messing myself because of the size of it and going up the ladder to get inside it and it was sort of going — it was a lovely gentle — on the Solent, you know, and I thought, ‘There’s something wrong. I don’t know what I’m doing here.’ And I could have refused. It was just something that being in the first four that it was a little present for those that were doing it and, er, I admit, I must admit I didn’t want to go then. And anyway we get inside and it was massive. I’ll never forget it. I mean, where they cooked they had a stove and everything and where they cooked it was as wide as this was. It was massive inside it. I was lost. I remember sitting there. We didn’t have a harness. They didn’t give us a harness. I was just sitting there and I was looking round. And they started the engines up. They were Hercules, no, no, Pegasus, they were Pegasus 16s and, er, then they started up and we were rolling forward and, do you know? I’m not kidding you, bump, bump, bump, and, and I couldn’t see out. All I could see, like, the pilot was up here but the, the feeling of going on, on the water in this blooming great flying boat. And, er anyway there were four of us there and none of us were very — I think all of us looking a bit green. Anyway, we took off and we just circled Southampton and Portsmouth, down there, and we come into land. Well, coming into land was the same as taking off virtually that was but, of course, if you got used to it like everything else — and we landed, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. Anyway when we went, they took us back to, um, we got back to St Athan and well, straight away, like, and we had to sort of say in front of those that were in charge of us down there, they had to say then, ‘Did you like it?’ And I said, I remember saying like, I said, ‘Is that what we’ve got to fly on?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to fly.’ Because honestly the take-off and landing on a Sunderland, honestly you could not understand, and when you look at Southampton, you know, when you look at the, look at the water. It all looks lovely and calm, you know, and you think — but by Jove I’ll tell you it did frighten me. Anyway, we got back and then we got back we were posted and posted then up to Yorkshire. That’s the first I saw of it. Posted to Eastmoor and there we landed at York and we got a truck there and there was thirteen of us. Thirteen flight engineers. And that was the hard bit. Do you know, out of those thirteen there was only about four of us finished. That was, that was hard.
IL: So, did you get to know those people?
RM: Well, when we went to the squadron we — well, Eastmoor was where they put all the crews in a hangar and there was a pilot, and he’d have his navigator, and the pilot would walk round and if you liked, er, like, if, if you liked a fella or you saw him and he saw [unclear] the pilot would go up to them and he’d say, ‘Have you got a crew?’ And this is gospel truth. They were — and some of the Canadians of course they knew one another from school, coming from Canada and things, so they weren’t so bad and I — and of course, when I was, went there it was awful. Well, those billets up there, the blankets were wet. We broke a table up to light the fire. It, it was about midnight when we got there from York and we spilt up and there was about six of us into this hut. It was awful. There, there was no fire. The blankets were wet. Anyway, um, it was awful to move in there. Well, in the daytime, as I say, we went into this big hangar where we were crewed up. And I remember I was sat there and I thought, ‘Nobody wants me.’ And it’s true. I was sat on a table. I was just sat there swinging my legs like. I was looking round, and I thought, I was hoping somebody would come up to me and say, ‘Have you got a crew?’ Or something. Anyway, I sat there and I saw them keep disappearing and I felt very lonely and I thought ‘Nobody wants me.’ Anyway, this, this pilot officer comes up to me and he tapped me on the shoulder and he said, ‘Have you got a crew?’ And I thought — I could have embraced him. I said, ‘No, I haven’t.’ He said, ‘Would you like to join my crew?’ I said, ‘Yes, I would.’ Well, he said, ‘I’m Pilot Officer Bryson.’ And he said, ‘Come with me and I’ll introduce you.’ And he introduced me. And I was the last one in the crew and he said, ‘This is Peter Lewinsky, navigator, Alex Trench was the bomb aimer (he was the Yank that did that book), Peter Lewinsky, er, Alex Trench was the bomb aimer, er, Reg Galloway was the wireless operator. Mid-upper gunner was Ralph Revlin [?] and the rear gunner was Harold Bowles.’ And that was how I was introduced to them.
IL: And so were they all, were they all, were they all British or —
RM: No, they were Canadian.
IL: They were all Canadian? Were you the only non-Canadian?
RM: Yes.
IL: Right.
RM: Yeah, they, they sort of — well, I was the youngest in the crew. The rest were twenty-one. The navigator was twenty-five and the wireless op was twenty-five. They were two of the eldest. The rest of them were twenty-one and I was just nineteen but they, they were marvellous really. They very nearly fostered me, you know. It was true. It was. Well, it was marvellous really accept I wasn’t their friend. When we were coming back they all smoked and so, when we were coming back and when I —
Sarah: Do you mean when you were setting out, when you were doing a, a return flight when you dropped bombs? When you say when you were coming back —
RM: Oh, we were coming back from — yeah, well that’s another story. They — what is was I was in charge of the oxygen and I didn’t smoke at the time (I did on occasion) and the skipper didn’t smoke but all the rest of them, it was like being in a factory. When we were flying, when we were — funnily enough they used to shout out. The rear gunner used to shout out and we’d be at eleven thousand feet and I used to take — and so I’d turn the oxygen off at ten thousand feet, you see, but I was in charge. But we’d be coming down, coming back, that was the worst bit because those that smoked needed a fag. That’s all there was so all they needed was a cig and so, we’d be at eleven thousand feet and then it started, the rear gunner, ‘Ray, Ray. How about turning the oxygen off.’ And we’d be at eleven thousand feet and it was the law but a flying law that you didn’t turn the oxygen off until you were down to ten thousand feet. That was the oxygen height, about twelve thousand feet, ten thousand feet, and so I used to turn to the skipper and I used to tap him because he would hear on, you see, and I used to tap him on the shoulder and he just used to sit there and he used to do just this and so I never answered them because, well, it was silly and then you would hear another one and the wireless operator, he was real — he was like a father, and he used to say, a bit subtler, ’Ray.’ [sound of aircraft] You know, and we’d be down then, coming down then, ‘Ray, Raymond, Raymond.’ And more sympathetic, ‘Turn the oxygen off Ray, Raymond. Turn the oxygen off.’ And so I used, used to turn to the skipper and I used tap him on the shoulder, and he was a bugger was old Bryson, the skipper. He was really stuck to it. At ten thousand feet turn the oxygen off, like, and they can — and it was like a furnace in there, you know, the cigarette smoke. They all smoked.
Sarah: Did they not swear at you occasionally?
RM: Oh, oh yeah. Yeah, it come to being not being pleasant, you know, ‘Turn that — turn that oxygen off. Turn.’ And, er, yeah, it was good fun.
IL: So, once you were crewed up you went to Linton?
RM: Yes.
IL: OK. So was this — so what was Linton?
RM: Linton was the — there were two squadrons at Linton: 408 and 426. That’s about it. There was sixteen to a squadron there so there was about thirty, thirty-two, thirty-two bombers all to take off and land.
Sarah: And you used to stay at Beningbrough didn’t you?
RM: Ah, well we were, we were billeted. We weren’t billeted at Linton. We were billeted at Beningham.
Sarah: Beningham.
IL: Oh, Beningham Hall. Very posh.
RM: Ah, well —
Sarah: We went there a couple of years ago didn’t we? Had a re-visit.
RM: Yes. Sarah took me there. There it is, look. That was when we were — yeah, there were six of us there. That was when we were old. 1987.
Sarah: It was a reunion.
RM: And it was a reunion, yes. They came all the way from Canada. 1987 that was. Oh yeah, they came over two or three times didn’t they, Sarah?
IL: So, when you, so you when you moved, when you first went to — so what, what year was it and what, when did you first start operations?
RM: Linton, we were at Linton in the November ‘43. I did my first trip on — to Berlin. That was a Berlin and I did my first trip to Berlin with Flight Lieutenant Brice. I flew spare. One of the — his engineer — on the 28th of January. That was my first trip to Berlin. That was one of the most unpleasant I had because they all the crew were new, weren’t they? And his engineer, he’d gone, you know, LMF. You know what I’m saying?
IL: Yep.
RM: And his engineer was Australian and poor chap he’d gone. He’d done seven trips and he just, he just packed it in, like, and so me, being clever, I had more flying hours in than any other flight engineer, being clever and the CO, Squadron — no, er, Jacobs at that time, said, Wing Commander Jacobs and said (you didn’t have a choice), ‘You’re flying tonight with Flight Lieutenant Brice.’ And that was my first trip.
IL: So, between November and January what were you actually — was this sort of — you were training as a crew?
RM: Yes. Oh, yes. We did a lot of flying. Well, we only flew if weather was on. I mean, between November and December that year, um, we didn’t do a lot of flying. It wasn’t until after Christmas, into January, that we concentrated on flying. Flying — I don’t mean operational because well, we weren’t, just weren’t on the list to operate and then that was January the 28th. That was my first Berlin with a new crew. That was not very pleasant because I was new to the crew. Mind, he give me a good recommendation. He told my skipper that I was a very good flight engineer and that, that meant a lot to me, er, and so, and then a couple of days later, couple of nights later, all the crew went. That was their — it was my second but their first. It was the 30th of January and we all flew as a crew. That was our first and that was another Berlin, another biggie, the big city, and from then on, you know, every other night, whenever they decided to fly us operationally, you know.
IL: So, so how many, how many operations? Was it a tour of thirty or —
RM: Thirty-one. I did thirty one because I put in that — I should have been screened at thirty but the rest of the crew had to do an extra one so I flew, I, I said I would fly the last one. That was to Cannes I think it was. That was —
IL: Did you have any, um, did you have any, um, interesting experiences or narrow escapes when you were over Germany on, on operations?
RM: Did we ever?
IL: Did you have any, um, narrow escapes? Did you have any, anything you’d like to tell us?
RM: Oh, I’d have to look in there because when you — like the first op I did with Flight Lieutenant Brice. We were both strangers to one another but every movement in that cockpit he relied on me. I’m not bragging. Every movement that that pilot had to do to that plane he had to do it through me, operationally, whatever it was. I don’t mean flying. To do appertaining to the air force, aircraft but flying, when we were flying, and you’re cruising along and you have to be prepared, especially when you fly, you get over the coast and you’re flying to France, flying over France. And the first Berlin that we did, I could never understand it because when you went into briefing there was a map that big, and then the CO used to come in, and there was a curtain and he used to pull the curtain, and you knew by the tone of the crew — there’d be all the crews in the briefing room — and you could hear them, ‘Oh, God. Another, another big city.’ You know. And of course, I was still a sprog wasn’t I? Going in with the crew, this new crew, and so when the curtain was drawn back all you heard was the moans, you know, ‘Oh, God. The big city.’ And I was sat there. I remember sitting there with the crew that I was with and they’d had seven operations between them so I was just a sprog but and so — but I knew my job. That’s what I was going to say. I knew my job as a flight engineer. I knew that I knew my job. That’s what I’m trying to say. I did know so that when we were, when we first started up and things like that I knew how to start everything up, I knew what tanks to be on before take-off, I knew what flaps to put down, the undercarriage and everything like that before we took off and, and so all he did was fly. But don’t get me wrong. I don’t mean that with any belittling sense because they were, they were magnificent machines and they needed good men to fly. That’s what I’m saying and they did and that’s how the crew, that’s how, that’s how you, that’s where the camaraderie came from, no doubt about that. And so when we, we taxied round the perimeter and then we were ready for take-off and you had to do pre-flight preparations before he opened the throttle and the take-off the same. He never said a word, didn’t the pilot, because I did everything for him in that respect accept he flew it. He was, he was the man. He flew it and he was a blooming good pilot as well.
Sarah: Were you excited on your first trip?
RM: Pardon?
Sarah: Were you excited on your first trip?
RM: Yes, I was [cough]. Well, there’s not much you can do, you know. We took off and at a thousand feet the pilot would say to the navigator, ‘Can you give me a course?’ That was just first course out and the first course — and what puzzled me was, what I was going to say was, what puzzled me was, looking at the map, I thought, ‘That’s funny. We’re going to Germany. We should be going to Germany.’ And Berlin is, Berlin was down there and I thought, ‘That’s funny. We’re going up here.’ And we flew over Norway and Den— and, and Sweden. That was how we went, up there, went up there like that and across there, and I thought, ‘What the hell are we flying up there? Why can’t we fly straight to Berlin and back again.’ But you’d blooming soon find out why they did it because you avoided all these little — I can show them to you on there, like, um, Bremen, one or two hot spots just, just inside there, all the big German ports there, and they were hot. They could shoot you down like a, you know, if — so the idea was to take us across to Norway and Sweden and you went, we went across like that and we turned, we took a turn to starboard. So, I suppose we’d be flying east, 2.40 or something like that, and then come down to Berlin, come down like that, and bomb Berlin and then another. All the routes are in there, you know, going to and from the target, and — but that first trip, the first excitement I got really that was excitement because you were looking out for fighters weren’t you and things like that. You were, and the fire over Berlin that fascinated you, there’s no doubt about it. You couldn’t, you weren’t supposed to look, you see. All the aircrew, once you got used to it you weren’t, you weren’t, you weren’t forced to, you couldn’t help, you saw this massive area that was alight and you couldn’t — in my blister (there was a blister in the Lanc) and I used to — I was looking down like that and my skipper give me a punch on the shoulder. He said, ‘You don’t really want to be looking down there.’ He said, ‘You ought to be looking up there for fighters.’ And just, just, the fire in the front of us, it could have been — I could never estimate up there how near we were and all of a sudden there was a massive explosion and a Lancaster or Halifax I think, I don’t know what it was, had been blown up in front of us. Now that brought me to realise that I was we were in the middle of the war, you know what I mean? There was nothing on the way and all of a sudden before the target this, this aircraft blew up and I knew, I realised then, you know, that that was war and we lost thirty-five aircraft that night. And so we lost four on the way so when you got back to briefing, um, that was the hardest part, when you got back to briefing. I’m not saying so much on that trip. And then there was a big board up and it said ‘late’ er, whoever it was, name Frank or any, any one of them down there, ‘late’, ‘arrival’, ‘depart’, ‘arrival’ and, and the time to put down and if you knew who your mate, we’d call him, was flying with you you looked for his pilot. His pilot’s name would be on the board, missing, and so you’d wait. If, if one of them, they called him Rodman [?] and he was — Harry Gilbert was his flight engineer and he should never have been flying because this is what happens and when he used, he used to come up to me because we were good friends. And I’d been through a course with him and I’m not saying I wasn’t frightened, it was ridiculous, but when I met him and he come in and his skipper was Flight Lieutenant Rodman and he used to come up to me and he used to say, ‘How are you Ray?’ And he’d light a fag and he was like this and I thought to myself — and he did, he got the chop, after he done about ten, but he was like this and, ‘How are you Ray?’ You know, ‘You alright?’ And I said, ‘For Christ’s sake Harry, give up.’ And I, I used to do, ‘For Christ’s sake.’ I said, ‘I did have a rough trip but I’m here and so are you.’ And it was the only way you could talk to Harry. He should never have flown, never have flown. Every time he come back and he used to make for me in the briefing room and, I mean it wasn’t as I was brave or anything, but I knew him and he was like this. He come from — he was a Lancashire lad, old Harry Gilbert but he was like this, lighting a fag.
IL: So what’s your definition of a rough trip?
RM: A rough trip?
IL: Yeah. A rough trip. What would have happened on a rough trip?
RM: Right. It was called “The Tale of Strong Winds”. I can go right through that with you because it was the worst trip I ever, it was [emphasis] the worst trip that was. I can talk to you right from there until we came back. Berlin, it was the last one, 24th of March 1944, and the take-off time would be in there. It might have been 4 o’clock in the afternoon. [sound of aircraft] Yeah, it would have been about 4 o’clock. It was March so, yeah, so we go to briefing [sound of aircraft] and, as I say, look at the map and hear the groans, big city again, and it’s a long way. It was an eight hour trip there and back and that’s a long time.
Sarah: Eight hours there?
RM: No, eight hours. Oh, no Sarah. There and back. And we took off, and Met, Met hadn’t said anything about anything. It was just an ordinary. We took off and on that route up there, we went over, going over the North Sea, and it was fine but we had a tail wind going over the North Sea and we did nothing. At that time of the year you did often get what they call a, a southern wind. It was like a south wind and the, the way we were taking off on that runway, we had nearly a tail wind. It was north and south runway as we called it and we took off. It was all fine. Settled down. What I noticed was we were going over Norway and Sweden again but that meant to say it was fairly — and we had a nice tail wind and our ground speed was about hundred and fifty which was pretty fast when you’re on climbing power and it was pretty fast was that and I thought, ‘That’s funny.’ And the skipper said to me, he said, ‘Jesus. We’ve got a tail wind.’ Well, the wireless operator had what they called an aerial and you let out an aerial and it gave us the wind. [background noise] It was like a wind sock and it told you the wind and he, he come back and he said, ‘That’s funny.’ He said, ‘The wind was about fifty or sixty.’ Which was a bit above average. When we got up to the top and turned to Norway, turned over to Norway — I mean, they were all, all these clever fellas in the crew, were talking about winds. You know, I wasn’t a bit interested to be honest. All I was only interested in was the aircraft we were flying [loud background noise] and so, you know, the winds increased, the wireless operator called, ‘The winds increased up to eighty.’ And, oh Jeez, you know, I heard them go round, the pilot, it was [emphasis] fast at eighty miles an hour and as we turned round and, and come down to Berlin I heard the navigator shout in that funny language, ‘Jesus Christ.’ The winds had blown on a what they called a reciprocal so that when we’d reached there and all of a sudden — you can see them on the maps — and the wind had blown literally where we were right up in the north there and turned down to Berlin and the wind had blown us, so instead of — and we had a tail wind. We had a tail wind to take-off and a tail wind going down to the target, Berlin. Our, our ground speed was something like three hundred and odd miles an hour. That was what our ground speed was and that, believe you me — and we had that tail wind up our backside — and what had happened was it blew us past Berlin, about fifty miles. We’d no control. And winds, as I heard some of them bragging about winds being a hundred and fifty miles an hour, and I, I think ours was, we recorded about a hundred and twenty-five, hundred and thirty and it blew us straight past Berlin. So, you can imagine, nearly all the bomber force being blown past Berlin and we had to turn round then, in the face of all these aircraft coming down, and we had to turn round then to go back and bomb Berlin. In other words, it, it sounds ridiculous, but that’s what happened and so when we turned round — and we lost seventy-five that night — and so when we turned round and, and air ground speed had dropped down to forty. That’s how heavy the wind was and it was horrendous really, because when you come to think, you turned round and you had a head wind and it was like standing still, and the pilot kept saying to me — now as an engineer I did know that much, that we were flying [ringing sound] we were flying at engine speeds of climbing speeds and, and flying into a wind, so I knew then — and our maximum power, we could only put maximum power on at about twenty-eight fifty revs plus eight and a quarter pounds of boost so we could only put that power on. I knew that and he kept saying to me, ‘We want more power.’ And it’s a wonder he didn’t strike me and I wouldn’t do it because at that power you could only do it for five minutes otherwise you’d have burnt, you’d have burnt — you know what I’m saying and it was elementary that. But — and air ground speed had been reduced to about forty miles an hour but that wasn’t the point doing that job. Can you imagine half the bomber force coming up and half of it coming down? I mean the aircraft, you could see them. You didn’t know what to do. It was horrendous, it really was, and you just stood there, and poor old Brice, the skipper, he just had to fly straight and level unless you saw something coming towards you. To turn round — well, we would have been blown down and so, and us flying back up and we bombed Berlin. Right, we bombed Berlin and glad to get away and we turned — the navigator gave us a course and it would be, well, I’ll make a figure. I think it was about 090, which was west, flying west, and was fine. We turned round and came back. Now, briefing, they said keep away from Roscos, Roscop —
Sarah: Rostock.
RM: Rostock, Rostock and Bremen, which were — we knew you had to miss them on the way out so you had to miss them on the way down. But with all the excitement that had gone on, and it wasn’t the navigator’s fault because all the wind up there, and we got a bit blown a bit off course. But we were cruising along nicely and all of a sudden bang! And they had then, they were clever you know, were Jerry, they knew we were bombing and they had their defences [clears throat] and it was, what they called a ‘blue searchlight’, and it was a master searchlight, and it hit us like that and what had happened was we had drifted to Rostock and Bremen and that nasty bit of an area down in that quarter there, and that searchlight, he cooked us and he hit us, and it was a blue, it was a blue, and within five minutes, maybe less than that, and there was about twenty searchlights coned us like that. Now, it, it was one of those experiences where you couldn’t see, you couldn’t see nothing, you just had to — he was there and all of a sudden he, he started to what we called ‘corkscrew’ and he shoved it, shoved the nose down, of course as he did it, he didn’t tell anybody he was doing it. He was the pilot and he stuck the nose down and, of course, gravity and as he stuck the nose down like that we went down about five thousand feet in a flash and he stuck the nose down. He screwed it round and stuck the nose down. I went straight up. I went straight up and the, and the bombardier, like, in front he was laid down. He was laid on his back and he was laid down and the language because he wondered what was up because he was in mid-air and that was the first time and navigator was cursing. He was on, he had one of those wheelie seats, he could move around in that little bit of space and, of course, he had his knees underneath the, his desk and his papers, er, as I say, as I went up and all of his nav papers and bits of his machinery was, was flying up in the air. The wireless operator was the only one of us who had any sense. Of course, poor rear gun— gunners, you know, were really thrown about because you can imagine what it was like to be thrown about like that and not knowing where you were and, and the audio was over the intercom, bad language and what was happening? And where are we? And that went on. I mean, for a pilot, and we, we both weighed the same. He weighed nine and a half stone and so did I so you imagine he was skinny, he wasn’t very big. Did you ever meet him Sarah?
Sarah: No. I didn’t.
RM: He wasn’t very big. He was about nine stone and he was five seven and a half in height so there was nothing and that was a big aircraft to throw about, something like twenty-two tonnes, even though it was tear [?] weight and, and anyway that was on the way down. On the way back that was when you felt G. Come back up from five thousand feet, pulling up, and he shouted out to me and I was all scattered brained and he shouted out to me, ‘Ray, Ray, Ray. Give us a hand.’ And so I went and got hold of the stick with him and we were like this and put me feet against that to pull. There was two of us pulling, pulled it out, but that wasn’t it. The searchlights were still on us. They would not let go and we were like that and then down the other side. I bet we were like that. He was flying up and down and trying to get loose from them, lose, lose them, and they were there. But they were there, that master searchlight, and it was an awful experience. It was a dreadful, dreadful experience and, anyway, just in the distance our, our rear gunner called out — they’d, what they done was, as we’d been flying and corkscrewing all over they copped onto another Lancaster and you could see it in the distance, this Lancaster. But they, they’d turned, they’d got hold of him. We just managed to get out of that because what happened after that was fighters. As soon as they, as soon as they — what used to happen was they would suddenly stop and so you were in complete darkness and that’s when the fighter boys used to come in. I think it says there we were attacked by fighters and anyway that wasn’t the end of the story. We were just levelled out and, and he grabbed hold of me, did the pilot, and he got hold of my intercom and he pulled out my intercom and he plugged my intercom into his intercom and he said, and he, he stood up and he said, you know, ‘Get into my seat.’ And, er, he sort of half dragged me, plugged it in. Well, as I passed him, as we were passing the seats, I saw him and he looked, even in the light that there was there, the sweat was literally pouring out of him. I never realised and never thinking like what he’d done and he’d been doing this for about twenty minutes, and that’s a lot in a Lancaster, going up and down and trying to — and, and so there I am, I’m sat in the cockpit. Well, bloody Lancaster, halfway across Germany and I’m sat there and the navigator said, ‘Alter course.’ And I just leaned forward and set the compass [cough] the old — and just set it and just set a bit of rudder, that was all, just to turn it on to whatever it was (I’ve forgotten) and flew it and not a sound, nobody spoke, nobody said anything and poor old Brice, he’d literally had it. And there I am, all quiet there, flying along there. Nothing to flying an aircraft, you know, it’s like driving a car up the M1. You just have to just sit there and hope that there’s no fighters and then it occurred to me I thought, ‘Christ what happens if, if we get attacked? What am I going to do? How am I going to corkscrew out of this?’ And Brice was just stood at the side of me and he kept patting me on the shoulder [slight laugh] and I thought, ‘There’s no good patting me on the shoulder if anything happens brother.’ Anyway, we was flying along. We must have been flying for about half an hour and nothing happened and that is — you, you couldn’t believe really, honestly, after all those experiences that I should be allowed to fly and I flew halfway across Germany. We weren’t far off the French coast and that’s how far I — I didn’t fly the thing. It just flew on its own. All I did was steering it. That’s the honest truth but nobody spoke and the only thing that upset me was nobody else in the crew knew what had happened, that I flew that aircraft. I thought he would have mentioned it, that when we sat down at briefing, ‘My flight engineer did this.’ And he never said, he never told none of those crew and from that day to this that I flew that aircraft back except when we were— well, they didn’t know and when we were coming up you know and the navigator, I think it was the navigator at that time, he tapped me on the shoulder and I got out. But I’d flown but that was the worst experience, one of the worst, and we hadn’t see anything really but —
IL: And that was your last —
RM: No, no.
IL: Sorry, I thought you said it was your last, sorry.
RM: No, no, no, no, no, that was Berlin. That was 24th of March and they called that the “Night of the Winds”. We lost seventy-five that night.
IL: My goodness.
Sarah: On, on a little lighter note do I, do I remember something about bomb doors not opening?
RM: No, I can’t — not bomb doors.
Sarah: No?
RM: No. Oh, we were attacked by night fighters, we got hit by flak, attacked by night fighters. That was the things that happened.
Sarah: Did you not have to come back once because you couldn’t drop some bombs? On a lighter note.
RM: Oh, right. This trip was Dortmund. Dortmund – Emms Canal they called it.
Sarah: There. We got it there.
RM: Dortmund, Dortmund Emms Canal. Right, and that was another, that was a hot spot, Dortmund but, um, experience, yes. We got into B-Baker and I started, I started the engines up, routine, er, before we left, before we left — what do you call it? Well, before we left where they were parked, like, we got in. The idea was to start the engines up, rev them up a bit, and I started the, the starboard engine up, one of them, and I just checked them, what they called a mag drop because, er, luckily it had two mag and what you had to do was run them up to a fifteen hundred and switch one of these mag drops. If you got a mag drop over three or four hundred revs there’s something wrong, you got a — anyway, I was testing them and called, I said to the skipper, I said, ‘It’s not right.’ I said, ‘This starboard inner. There’s too big a mag drop.’ And he said, ‘Oh.’ I said, ‘I’ll open it up again.’ Anyway, I reckoned to open it up to clear anything and give it a good boost, like, and, and no, it didn’t work. So, we stopped the engines, called up control, starboard inner US. Fine, we thought. Every— everybody in the crew thought we’re going to have a night off. Come over from control, um, ‘Bryson, Flight Lieutenant, Flying Officer Bryson there’ll be transport. They’re going to take, they’ll take you to C-Charlie.’ Oh, so we’ll have to go after all. Transport comes along. And imagine having to getting in and out of a Lancaster, across the old spar there and it was hard work. You’d have to take off all your, your, um, parachute like and your harness and things like that. So the transport comes, broom, broom, across to C-Charlie and it was cold and it didn’t feel like your aircraft and straight away there’s a bit of, ‘Who did this aircraft belong to?’ ‘Oh. It belongs to —.’ ‘Oh Christ, its cold.’ And you heard them moaning like and as to what each department they got into, they’d say, ‘Oh, it’s a dirty place.’ You know, the gunners were saying. And anyway we get in, starts the engines up, everything’s fine and navigator — and this is navigation equipment I’m going to tell you and it was called GEE and H2S. Anyway, he’s fiddling about and there’s Bryson and I up front giving it some boost to clear the oil and do all this sort of thing before take-off. We hadn’t left dispersal and navigator calls up, ‘Jesus Christ,’ he says. He said, ‘The GEE’s not working and H2S.’ So we sat there waiting. ‘Are you sure?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Oh.’ We knew then we were going to have a night off. That was the second aircraft. Not on your Nelly. So, they send somebody over and well, to repair anything like that — they were fantastic machines, you know, you’re able to navigate a lot easier, let’s put it that way, with these machines, like, they were operating. Called up control. We thought for sure we were going to have a night off, um, ‘Flying Officer Bryson within C-Charlie. We’re sending out transport that’s going take you to Z-Zebra.’ So, you can imagine us, like, us and that belonged to Flight Lieutenant Franklin. So, transport comes along. What date was that Sarah? Dortmund?
Sarah: Dortmund? 22nd of Feb ’44.
RM: Feb? February?
Sarah: Oh, It says at the side, ‘abort, ice’.
RM: Right, so, we then had to be carted, miserable, returned to miserable then, the crew, ‘Jesus. What the — what are we doing? We should be in York by now.’ Gets into Z-Zebra, same procedure, and we knew the skipper of this aircraft. He wasn’t flying that night. Get into it. This is the third time and tempers were really flaring because, because they were all taking off. Didn’t wait for us, and so they were all taking off, and so I was following to see if we could get in and Bryson, my skipper, and me we never had a wrong word. I did everything he said. All he had to do was fly. And I mean, that’s the way we were. You had to work like that. And anyway, everything was fine and we starts off, and by that time we had to get a move on. It was half an hour since the rest of them had gone and that was bad. That was bad. That was really bad because you wanted to be with the main group, you see. You get over Germany and there’s one of you, you’ve had it. You’ve had it. There’s no doubt about that. [sound of aircraft] Anyway, we took off and we had to get a move on. There was a front, what they called a ‘front’, moving over the North Sea and I was giving him all the power that we could and we weren’t climbing, we were climbing about a hundred and sixty, I suppose, hundred and seventy or something, and the old Hercules engines there, they powered us up there. We were climbing and this front. We got a, what was it? A QDM or QFE saying this front was in and we had to climb above it because it was, excuse me, we was up at ten thousand feet and we had to climb above it. It was forty miles into the North Sea and he knew, did the skipper that I wasn’t going to push it anymore, because there’s always something at the other end of it, in my opinion. That’s how I worked it out. If we’d had pushed it we would have gone up to maximum power and it wouldn’t have done the engines any good. And we were trying to climb and all of a sudden I looked out and there was ice on the main plane like this and you could hear it, the props, straining again the plane, you know, and I looked out and I thought, ‘Oh dear.’ I really thought that we’d had it because we were struggling to move and I, I think our air speed, our air speed [emphasis] had been reduced to hundred and thirty, hundred and forty, and stalling was about ninety, ninety-five, something like that, and — but we plodded on and he called up did Bryson and he said, ‘Well, what are we going to do fellas? Are we going to turn back or are we going to press on, press on regardless?’ And all of a sudden as he said that the old Lanc give, gave a lurch because the ice on the, on the main plane, I’m not kidding, it was about six inches. It was that thick and we could never — we were struggling and all of a sudden it gave a lurch and he had the common sense did Bryson (well, he was a good pilot) and he, he all of a sudden, he stuffed the nose down and give it some starboard twists and we were going straight down. And all, then all of a sudden, as we got down a bit normal, like we were going down, and our air speed is about three hundred and fifty I think going down, but we were at ten thousand feet, eleven thousand feet, and, as I say, stuck the nose down and we just had to hope and all of a sudden as we hit warmer air, warm, warmer air, it flew off and it was a marvellous sight to see, because it flew off the plane did the ice and rubbish, you know, and also you couldn’t see because all the windows had, had, er, snowed-up. We couldn’t see out, couldn’t see where we going, and — but fortunately I had a little bit of knowledge and I remembered that in all those — never had to experience it — and there was a little what they called an alca— what did it contain? That fluid that we used to, they put in engines to stop them — coolant.
IL: Anti-freeze?
RM: Pardon?
IL: Anti-freeze.
RM: Anti-freeze.
IL: Ethylene glycol.
RM: And I was fiddling down as we were going down and I was fiddling down, around. It was down near his bloody rudder, and I remember I said, ‘Get your leg out of the way.’ Because it wasn’t a pump like that and what had happened was if you released the spring it pumped as it came up, not as you went down, and all of a sudden it cleared. The windows went just like that and it cleared but it didn’t make any difference. We were going down and then it started and then of course the weight. We had — it will tell you in there how much, how many bombs we, what we had and we’d have about fourteen thousand pounds of bombs on going straight down. I think we had a cookie that night. It will tell you there somewhere Sarah. Dortmund. Look down the left hand side.
Sarah: Yeah. I’ve got Dortmund there.
RM: And look across. No.
Sarah: I’m not sure. You know where to look. I don’t, dad.
RM: Well, here look. Where’s Dortmund?
Sarah: There.
RM: Right.
Sarah: There.
RM: Right, here look. What number is it? Seventeen.
Sarah: Yeah. Oh, there. Sorry, I’m with you.
RM: Eleven one hundred pounders and five five hundreds. And that’s a lot of bombs.
IL: A big load, yeah.
RM: That’s a lot of bombs. We could carry fifteen one thousand pounders, eight thousand pounders, twelve, twenty-two. Anyway, he says, as we were going down, he called out to the — he said to the bomb aimer, he said, ‘I’m opening the bomb doors.’ Talking to the bomb aimer, he said, ‘Trench. Drop the, drop the bombs.’ Now, protocol. You weren’t allowed to drop your bombs less than forty miles out to sea in the North Sea. Now that was law [emphasis]. That was what they told you to do and you had to be forty miles. Well, can you imagine? We’re out in the North Sea and I remember he called up and he said to the navigator, ‘Where are we nav?’ Or something like that and the navigator says, ‘How the bloody hell do I know if we’re forty miles out to sea.’ Because we’d gone through all this procedure and he called out to the bomb aimer, ‘Trench, I’m opening the bomb doors.’ And when he — well, that’s what I must have said to you Sarah about the bomb doors and he, he selected the bomb doors to be opened and they, with all the frost and they jammed and we were still going down you see and, and he kept pumping up and he said to me, ‘What do I do Ray?’ I said, ‘I haven’t a clue. I have nothing to do with the bomb doors.’ And he’s here, this side like, and all of a sudden they opened and we were going down and that was a nasty [emphasis] experience because you didn’t know what was going to happen. You were hoping then, and a wing and a prayer, and all of a sudden the bomb doors opened. You felt them jar because of the drag and all of a sudden we slowed down a bit, down to — I don’t know and old Trench called out, ‘Bombs gone.’ And we dropped all those [slight laugh] dropped all those bombs into the North Sea and that was a great relief. And so, back to base. When we got back to base, instead of taking us back to briefing, there was no debriefing, and instead the CO told us that he had to see the CO did the skipper so we drove round in this, er, in the wagon. We were inside the wagon and he stopped outside flight control, where the skipper was, where the CO was, and you wouldn’t believe it but our skipper got a rocket because we, we’d, um —
Sarah: You returned safely but you’d not done —
IL: Jettisoned.
Sarah: You’d not done your job.
RM: What did we call it? You wrote it out.
IL: Aborted.
Sarah: Aborted.
RM: Aborted, yes, and we’d aborted, and he got a right rocket did our skipper. He should have done this. He should have done that. And we couldn’t fly. You were literally came to a standstill. I mean, I was up there with him and it was impossible. You know, I really thought we’d had it. When I looked out and saw I really did. I thought — and you know he give it up as a bad job because you, he couldn’t do anything. There was no control. We were just flying forward, like, as slow as we could possibly could and fancy, and so out of spite, and if you look in there, out of spite the following night they sent us to Stuttgart and that, that was another eight hours and we always said he’d taken it out on us, the skipper, because we’d gone, we’d aborted, and that was an awful experience. There’d be, there’d be another one. There were lots of things that happened. I dare say, apart from three or four, you know, do you want me to go on talking? Because I could tell you of an experience, it wouldn’t take long, but of an experience more spiritual.
IL: Please.
RM: It’s interesting but it’s something, this, I’d done twenty-eight trips and that was coming to the end of it, this tour, and I’d done twenty-eight, and we were all a happy crew except this particular morning. I was always the first up in Beningbrough Hall. I was always the first up. There was only one wash basin, out of all those men there, wasn’t there Sarah? There was, well, there may have been more like but there was one on our floor and I was always first up. I was one of those who was embarrassed because I only shaved about twice a week [laugh] I did and so I was always first there and washed and this particular morning, and this is true, this particular morning I woke up and I laid there and it was always half past seven and I laid there and laid there and old Bowles, the rear gunner, he always followed me and he came over and he’d been to the ablutions, ablutions and he come and stood by the bed and he said, ‘Come on Ray.’ He said, ‘What’s up?’ And I looked up at him and said, ‘Oh, I’m alright.’ He said, ‘Well, what’s up?’ I said, ‘Nothing.’ And he said, ‘Oh.’ In between times, the while crew was billeted in this one room (they’d lock us in) Beningbrough Hall. And he said, ‘What’s up?’ Anyway, by the time I’d I just closed my eyes and all I wanted to do was — I can’t tell you what it was like. It was awful. I felt awful and I thought, ‘This is it. We’re going to get the chop.’ That’s all that went through my mind. It was — I was so desperate. I thought, ‘We’re, we’re going, we’re going to get the chop.’ And it was 8 o’clock when I got up and I thought — and these buses used to come, you see, and take us to Linton for breakfast to the sergeants’ mess and they came at regular intervals and I remember and I thought, ‘Oh, I feel awful.’ I felt dreadful and I knew that night if we were flying at some time we were going to get the chop. I had that feeling and it was an awful feeling. Anyway they’d all gone and I caught a bus, caught the bus and ended up — and, er, but I couldn’t, I still couldn’t do anything. I didn’t even go to breakfast and I went down to the hangar where the engineers were and I couldn’t, I didn’t seem to want to do anything. All I wanted to do — and I thought, ‘Shall I tell the crew?’ This is true, Ian, it’s true what I’m telling you. I didn’t know whether to tell the crew that not to fly that night. I hadn’t — I wanted to tell them that this was going to be our last trip. That was the feeling I had in me and, oh it must have been getting on, and I thought, ‘I’ll have to get something to eat.’ And I went down to the mess and I had my breakfast and then, from then, I had a walk. I walked, I started to walk to flights and on the way down we passed their chapel (we had a chapel at Linton) and we were going — I’ve got to stop [pause] I had a job. I’ll stop.
Sarah: You want to stop?
RM: Well, it’s a story, so I’ll have to carry on and tell you what happened. I’ll have to carry on.
IL: It’s up to you. I don’t want to make you —
RM: No, no, no. It’s alright. I’ll get over it.
IL: I don’t want to upset you.
RM: No, I’ll get over it. I promise you. I went into church and I said the Lord’s Prayer. It came out and I thought I’d feel better. That’s what I’d done it for, hadn’t I? And I thought I’d feel better and I went back to the, the crewing room, and it was all better then. It did seem better but at the back of my mind there was still this thing and, anyway, the skipper came round and he said, ‘We’re flying tonight.’ And he said, ‘I’ll pick you up Ray.’ As he did every time. He said, ‘I’ll pick you up Ray.’ And he came round with the jeep and, of course, that was what we did every morn— every morning before a flight and we went out to the aircraft and it seemed alright. You know, you run it, I did the checks, you went round and checked everything, and run the engines up, and it was in the back of my mind and it seemed to — it was there and I still I couldn’t tell you why but it was there and, um, anyway — but I still wanted to tell the crew that it was going to be our last one. I had it. Anyway, er, and we got out to flights and we get into the aircraft, and pilot always went first and I followed him, and I was going up the ladder and our old Bowles, he bumped me up the backside going up the ladder. He said, ‘Come on Ray.’ And as I got to the steps my knees gave way and they were trembling, they was literally shaking, and I thought, ‘I’m mad. Why don’t I tell them I’m not going?’ And I thought that, that was there on the twenty-ninth, Sarah. Look on twenty-nine. You’ll see. It was a duff target. I don’t think we lost any of them.
Sarah: Was it Criel?
RM: That’s it. Criel. And, er, he bumped me up the backside. He said, ‘Come on Ray. What’s up?’ And with that I thought, ‘That’s it. Got to go. Got to go now. I’m inside and it’s everything.’ And as, as we were walking up, even the last minute, I was touching things, the old dinghy, the dinghy handle, and I looking round and I knew I’d done it before in the morning and, anyway, we gets off like but all the time I couldn’t — it was there whatever I did, you know. I set the petrol pumps and turned on the right tanks to be on and I had to do something to be — and I remember getting my log, my log, my log card and sort of wanting to do something. Anyway, we took off and everything but I was waiting all the time. I was waiting, waiting for something to happen and anyway we flew out. It was Criel and it was, it was nothing. So we flew out there and I don’t, I don’t think — we didn’t see a fighter, there was hardly any ak-ak fire, I don’t think there was hardly — there was nothing. We turned round and come back and do you know all the time we were coming back I had it in my mind, landing, when we were landing I was waiting [pause] waiting. We landed. Nothing happened and it were really interesting, looking back, it was the best trip I’ve ever been on. I wouldn’t have got back and I thought that I’d been, and what I’m trying to say is had I not been to church, do you understand that?
IL: I do.
RM: Had I not been to church or what would have happened? Was the good Lord on, on our side? But, believe it or not, I would sooner have gone on a trip and been shot at than gone through that experience again. You can’t understand. I couldn’t describe to anybody really and that was on my 29th trip and that was — and I never mentioned it to anybody but I do remember coming out of briefing, um, old, our Bowles, the rear gunner, he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, ‘We done it Ray.’ I don’t think — I think it was about the thirtieth wasn’t it Sarah, Criel?
Sarah: It was your twenty-ninth.
RM: That, that’s what I say, it was the twenty-ninth.
Sarah: How did you feel for your thirtieth then?
RM: Pardon?
Sarah: How did you feel going for your thirtieth?
RM: Nothing.
Sarah: No?
RM: It had gone Sarah. No, no. I was happy as Larry. No, that didn’t even occur to me. All, all of it suddenly when old Bowles came out of the briefing and old Bowles he put his arm on my shoulder and said, ‘You know Ray we done it.’ But what he meant was we were so near to completing and, I mean, one trip there and it says losses and we didn’t lose an aircraft. I mean, it was probably an easy target but that, but that particular time it was awful. It was awful. I had this feeling. But the other thing, of course, you had to have faith. You had to have faith in the rest of your crew and they were a wonderful crew, they really were, and you had to have faith in what they did and, and it was being selfish, thinking of myself, thinking it was me I was worried about and not thinking about them, except I wanted to tell them, and didn’t want to go. I didn’t want to go. And that was awful. I would have been LMF. No I wouldn’t. They wouldn’t chance me going. They would screen me. But it was awful you know, I can’t — so I say, I’d rather go to Berlin any time than go through that experience again. It was dreadful and, I mean, you can think what you like about it.
Sarah: How old were you then?
RM: Twenty, nineteen, nineteen.
Sarah: Nineteen. Wow.
RM: Yeah, I was nineteen Sarah, yeah.
Sarah: I think you had every right to have a wobble in your knees. [slight laugh]
IL: Absolutely. So, you finished your, you finished your thirty, thirty-one in your case, and then you — did you keep in touch with your crew after that?
RM: No. That was another thing, um, because something happened when I was at Lindholme. Here, I’ll tell you who I flew — I flew with Pat Moore, you know, the astronomer.
IL: Oh, right.
RM: Yeah. I was billeted with him.
IL: And where was that?
RM: At Lindholme.
IL: Right.
RM: I’ll have to tell you this. This is, this is the brighter side. I was posted to Lindholme. This was from Transport Command.
IL: Right.
RM: And, er, this is a little bit in between. Patrick Moore, tell ‘em, Patrick Moore posted to, er, Lindholme and we formed — what it was I was at it again. We formed a squadron, 716 Squadron, and we were to fly to Manila to bomb Japan. I never heard such rubbish, rubbish. That was what it was but of course Ray Moore put his name down in the orderly room, oh, I’ll volunteer. Yes, I’ll volunteer. Where’s Milan? Where’s —
Sarah: Manila.
RM: Manila. I didn’t even know where it was. My geography wasn’t that bad but I didn’t know where Manila was. It’s true. So we get posted there and the—
Sarah: A bit south of Worthing?
RM: Pardon?
Sarah: A bit south of Worthing.
RM: yeah. So the jeep drops me off and there was houses at Lindholme and all the pilot officers and flying officers were upstairs and all the flight lieutenants were downstairs. That was snobbery wasn’t it? Honestly, truthfully. That’s how it was. Anyway, I get my kit bag and walking up the stairs, and they were big houses, and the front room, there was two of us in the front room upstairs and two in the back room. Anyway, ‘The one on the left is yours.’ Right, and the door was part open, and I walked in, and there was this chap sat on his bed, and I walked in and I turned round and I said, ‘Oh, hello.’ I was feeling good I suppose and I said, ‘Oh, hello.’ And he, he stood up and he said, um, ‘Flying Officer Patrick Moore.’ And I looked at him and said, ‘Flying Officer Raymond Moore.’ And do you know and he had a quizzical look, you know, his eyebrows.
IL: He was famous for those.
RM: Pardon?
IL: He was famous for those.
RM: Yes, that’s it? Well, he gave me this look and he said, and he thought I was pulling, pulling his leg. I know that when I looked at him and I said, ‘Oh, hello.’ Especially when I said, ‘Flying Officer Raymond Moore.’ And I went and slung my kit bag on my bed. And he stood up and he said, ‘Are you from, areyou Irish?’ I said, ‘No I’m not.’ I thought, ‘I’ve got a queer one here.’ You know. I said, ‘No. My parents came from Norwich, Norfolk.’ ‘Oh. Oh, righto.’ And we came very good friends and we visited him down at the Farthings down at —
Sarah: Billericay.
RM: Pardon?
Sarah: Was it Billericay?
RM: No, no. Down on the south coast, um, down on the south coast, Sarah. That lovely big house. Oh yeah, we visited him and he was, he was quite an eccentric, you know, but —
IL: He did have a bit of a reputation.
RM: He did and, um, he did, but we got on fine, famous, we did really. We went and visited him and he was always angry at me because when he started to talk about astronomy — and all I knew was there was a lot of stars up there, and there was the sun and the moon, and I wasn’t a bit interested. He taught me how to use the, um, what did they call it? Sextant. He taught me how to use that on the road that was, at Lindholme. Hehe showed me how to — and afterwards he was absolutely disgusted because after he’d shown me how to use it and I wasn’t a bit interested and he said to me after he, he’d worked out his shot he called it, after he worked out the shot, I was about a hundred miles off target, and he didn’t like it one bit. And that’s a letter, look, he wrote to me after we’d got, after I’d — I wasn’t really a bit interested in. We had family and family life, that’s all, that’s all I wanted was family life so anything in between. And we finished, we retired at sixty, June 28th it was, and he says, ‘Great to hear from you.’ Now, this is all those years after, this was 1987, but, um, we used to play, Bet and myself and another girl called Joan Walters (she was our bridesmaid) and we used to play a foursome at badminton, and he was a keen sportsman, and we got on well together, and I could have kicked his backside because we were stood outside Flying Control after the war was over and he said to me, well we were talking, and he said — but I still had a year’s service to do and after I finished flying — I packed in flying. I did that for moral reasons. That was another thing. I said, ‘I don’t know I’m going to do.’ He said, ‘I’ll tell you what you should do Raymond.’ He said, ‘Why don’t you go in Flying Control?’ He said, ‘It would suit you down to the ground.’ I said, ‘Flying Control?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want to be [clears throat] associated with aircraft Pat.’ He said, ‘Well what about as— what about —.’ What do they call weather, you know?
IL: Metrologist.
RM: Metrology. He said, ‘Why don’t you take up metrology?’ I said, ‘I never thought much about it.’ I said, ‘No.’ And I took admin and I became an adjutant, for Christ’s sake, after all that. Worst thing I ever did. They were what I call — I’ll repeat it on there — I called them, ‘Hooray Henrys.’ Because that’s what they were, ground crew, what I considered they were. It was an armaments depot and I’ve never had such twelve miserable months in all my life in the service, with all the fact that I’d been aircrew, I was a — they treated me like dirt. They never even thought — and I’m not — it’s the honest truth. I know where they put me, right at the bottom of the list, and I could have fought them. I know I could in the mess, in the officers’ mess. I could have had many a row with them when they talked about air crew and how they — they snubbed me. I was the only member of the air crew there, you see, and I was the assistant adjutant and I couldn’t have cared less. I lost a lot of interest but, er, but I always said that old Pat Moore, although he was trying to do — and I should have done what he did. I should have gone in Flying Control or, er, he says, ‘It’s great to hear from you.’ You can read it.
IL: I’d love to.
RM: Yes. He did. Yes.
IL: Just, just because I’m conscious of that we actually and I don’t want to tire you out but I would like to hear what, what you were telling me earlier about when you went to Dalton and you had sort of an interesting time leaving Dalton. [slight laugh]
RM: Oh that. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, first and foremost, what I must tell you is, when I was sent there as an instructor, I mean, I remember there with old Scot. He finished a tour. Squadron Leader was his skipper, Hailes [?] I think it was, and but we were, we were like buddy buddies you know all the time we were flying and, you know, what are they called? Those two comedians. They’ve both died. The other one —
Sarah: Morecambe and Wise.
RM: No, the other, one was fat and the other a little chubby fella. They died.
Sarah: Oh Oliver Hardy and —
RM: No, no.
Sarah: No?
RM: No. It’s goodnight to him and it’s goodnight to him.
IL: Oh, the two Ronnies.
RM: Two Ronnies.
IL: Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbet.
RM: Well, Ronnie, the shortest one and he looked, he was his twin brother and he was, he was, um, well, Scottie to me. I called him Scottie, but he was very short and when he wore his cap, when he wore his cap he was only about five foot six and he was, he didn’t look right, you know, somehow. He was thin and didn’t look right and [clears throat] we both got posted to Dalton as instructors. Well, you know, it was a joke, I mean for me to be an instructor and when I went into this hut it was about twenty-eight foot long it was. I remember it distinctly and there were two engines in there and they’d been cut in half and all the component parts had been painted different colours. And anyway when I looked in through the door old scot, old scot, he took the air frames and I took the engines. So he was in another part of the building. But we were sent there to be in charge. They’d been opened up as a depot, you know, for training purposes to teach pilots. The airframe and engine of a Lancaster, that was what it was and we’d both been sent there to be in charge to open it up as a training centre, you know, and I’ll never forget I walked inside the door there and I saw this Lanc there, and this Lanc, you can imagine the size of it. It’s a massive thing like this, and all of its components, like red — I can’t tell you, the different colours they painted it, and all you had to do really, apart from the instructing part, which was a major part, you know, what happened to this and what happened to that but I was good. I knew every part of the engine, er, originally but when it came to standing up there and there was a blackboard at the back there and I thought, ‘This is not for me. This is not for me.’ And I hadn’t a clue and what it meant was that I was saying this, that and the other, blackboard, a bit of this, a bit of that. There were six of them, six pilots. Anyway, I got to know them and I told them exactly I was useless as an instructor. I was useless because — and I couldn’t really have cared less. I’d finished flying. I’d done my bit. Anyway Scottie got on fine. He was a crawler, like. He wanted to be in charge and I couldn’t have cared less. He could have run it for me. They could have promoted him. They did do but — and so that’s how it was and so what happened was there was a bit of friction between us. He wanted to, he wanted to be in charge and if he’d have said to me, you know, if he’d have shook his fists and said to me, ‘I’m going to be in charge.’ I would have said to him, ‘Help yourself.’ Anyway, it started off with me instructing, um, and I wasn’t very good. I wasn’t very good at conveying anything. I knew everything that was there, every part of the engine and what it did but when it came to what I — the theory and what happened — so, of a morning, this was my idea, found out that this little café in Topcliffe, you see, which is — you know where Topcliffe is?
IL: I do.
RM: Right, and up one of the sideways there, where it says no entry coming down, and on the right hand side there in them days there was a little old bicycle shop. And they were a lovely couple. They were elderly and we got to know of it and we all had bikes. Everybody had a bike there and every morning I got to find out and just across, as you went through the gates, just across there, there was a NAAFI wagon, er, for a wad and a cup of tea as they called it, a wad and a cup of tea, and it was just across there and all you had to do was walk across there and it used to be there half past nine every morning but I thought, ‘A cup of tea and a wad.’ It was alright but it didn’t seem — it wasn’t up my street. I was a bit more adventurous. We found out this little café in Topcliffe, you see, so the idea was — there was just four of us (there was a couple of them who didn’t go) — and the idea was to get through the gate and I knew them couple on the gate, those red caps, you know, and they in them days — I wasn’t an official man. I was one of them and so I got to know these. There were two of them and [clears throat] go through the gate, pedal to Topcliffe. True, they used to have it very nearly ready for us, a lovely cup or mug of sweet tea and gobble your old spam sandwich. They were beautiful those spam because that spam used to come from America and it was the best spam I’ve ever tasted. So, anyway, then bike back again and Scottie didn’t like this. It wasn’t to his liking because I should have been instructing, you see, and when it struck 10 o’clock I should have been back there. Well, we only, we had half an hour to get there and half an hour back again. It didn’t seem far to me but we used to be late going or late coming back. It never used to bother me. This particular morning, gets the old bike ready, going out, and all of a sudden Scottie appears and he stood in front of this bike. He, he’s just stood in front of me with, with my bike in and grabbed me and, ‘Morning Scott. Morning Scottie, how are you?’ He said, ‘Mr Moore, Mr Moore.’ He said, ‘I’m forbidding you to go.’ He was only a pilot officer same as me but he was trying to throw rank, and he said, ‘Mr Moore.’ He said, ‘I forbid you to go.’ I looked and said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘I forbid you to go.’ He knew that we were going you see. He said, ‘It isn’t right.’ He said, ‘You’re not. It’s not right.’ He said, ‘You shouldn’t be going out.’ All this stuff and I said, ‘Get out of the way Scottie.’ He said, ‘I forbid you to go.’ So, and all I did was, I had the handle bars, and I was like this with the handle bars, I said, ‘Get out of the way.’ And he was stood there and what happened was he, he sort of, the bike wheel as it was, and he sort of stumbled on his back-side. I wasn’t even bothered. I just said, ‘Come on fellers. We’ll go back to Topcliffe.’ And I get back. I still, well, that’s how it was. Went back in to the instructing part of it and all of a sudden over the Tannoy, ‘Will Flying officer, would pilot officer Moore report to the orderly office at 12 o’clock.’ I thought, ‘What the hell do they want me for?’ And anyway I didn’t bother. I went on like. At 12 o’clock I wandered over to the orderly room just up the road inside the camp and I went in and there were two, two MPs there, red caps ‘Hello.’ I thought what’s up. Anyway, they stood to one side and, er, I never thought any more about it. I went inside and in fact the squadron leader, I knew him, not as a friend but I knew him as, you know, sort of, not so much this but, um, squadron leader and in the mess and anyway when I went inside like he had a stern looking face on and he had all my folders in front of him with all, all my bumph. ‘Now then.’ He said, ‘You’re in real trouble.’ I said, ‘Why? What have I done?’ He said, ‘You struck a fellow officer.’ I said, ‘I didn’t strike anybody.’ He said, ‘Oh, yes you did.’ He said, ‘You were seen by two members of the military police.’ I said, ‘I didn’t strike him.’ I said, ‘I pushed him.’ I said, ‘I pushed him.’ I said, ‘That’s all I did and said ‘Get out of the way.’’ He said, ‘What? What was it all about?’ [cough] ‘What was it all about?’ I said. ‘You must know, Sir, that bicycles were disappearing of a morning and biking up to Topcliffe.’ I said — he said, ‘Well, you must have known you were in the wrong. You were breaking out of camp.’ I thought, ‘Oh dear.’ And I thought what? The first thing that went through my mind was, what would my dad say if I’m, um, if I’m —
Sarah: Discharged.
RM: Discharged. Well, what it meant was I wouldn’t be discharged. They would have stripped me —
Sarah: Well, yeah.
RM: And put me on — anyway he said, ‘What did you think you were doing?’ He said, ‘Look at your record.’ I said, ‘Honestly.’ I said. He said, ‘I believe you.’ You see on record he said you did strike a fellow officer I said, ‘Sire, there’s no, there’s nothing?’ He said, ‘I’m sorry.’ So, I said, ‘What’s the score?’ He said like, ‘I wanted him to go down to see the MO.’ And I thought, you know, ‘What have I done? What have I done?’ All I did was a friendly get out of the way, you know. If I’d — I couldn’t have hit him. He was about two inches shorter. He was only a little chap and a breath of wind like me, he was — and anyway, he said, ‘I want you to go down to the MO.’ And a very friendly chap, a Flight Lewie [?] and I went down to see him and he said, ‘I’ve just had a phone call from the squadron leader CO.’ And he said, he said, ‘What it is, you’re being posted to Brackla.’ I said, ‘Brackla.’ He said, ‘It’s a joke.’ He said, ‘It’s, they call it the ‘demented air crew’ of Brackla.’ And he said, ‘That is where you’re going.’ He said, ‘I’m going to put you on venal barbital.’ And he said, ‘You have to take these. Here’s a packet.’ And I don’t know if it was in a bottle or what it was and he said, ‘I want you to take one of these in the morning.’ And I thought — I couldn’t believe it. I might have been a bit screwy if you know what I mean, finishing ops. I’m not saying I wasn’t — I’m not saying I was perfect or anything like that. I, I was a bit erratic. I do remember that. I remember getting drunk at the Jim Crack in York, you know, and that was after we’d I finished flying, and where I went — years ago Sarah.
Sarah: Betty’s?
RM: It was something Arms.
Sarah: Oh, I don’t know.
RM: And I remember getting drunk there like but —
Sarah: I know you used to go to Betty’s when —
RM: Oh, Betty’s Bar in York. Oh, well. Betty’s dive. Oh, yeah. A few times back —
Sarah: My, how things have changed.
IL: Yeah.
RM: Where what?
IL: I said ‘My. How things have changed.’ It’s not Betty’s dive any more is it?
RM: Oh, no.
Sarah: No. You pay twenty pounds for afternoon tea.
IL: It’s very up market, Betty’s.
RM: When you went downstairs there you couldn’t see above the smoke. But, um, yes.
Sarah: That’s where you scratched your name.
RM: [cough] The — oh, down inside there. If ever you go inside you want to go downstairs and as you just look round the corner there’s mirrors there and all of — my name’s on there.
IL: Oh, I’ll look.
RM: Scratched, scratched with a diamond ring and there there’s book there with all the names that’s on the glass, on the mirrors.
IL: Oh right.
RM: Yeah. And if you want to and actually if you wanted to see it and you, you’re met at the top of the stairs where they queue for their tea and cakes. If you met up the top of the stairs and you met any one of those girls they would take you down there and they — and you say, ‘Excuse me. I don’t want anything to eat. I just want to look at the glass and the mirrors.’ There’s hundreds of them down there and then there’s a little book. There used to be a little book. Yeah, my name’s on there. The whole crew’s on there, yeah.
IL: Fantastic. So —
RM: Anyway, going back to Brackla, demented air crew, and he said — and it, and was a joke but I thought, ‘Oh to hell with it. I’ve finished flying. They can do what they like with me.’ And it didn’t bother me. It honestly didn’t bother me. I didn’t say — I wasn’t belligerent or anything and I accepted it and he said — our billet’s were further down — he said, ‘Be outside your billet.’ And, yeah, in the morning he said — now I could have gone — there was a station at Dalton and he said — this jeep. That was the beauty of it, wasn’t it? ‘This jeep and it will take you to York, like, and from York you change for Edinburgh, Edinburgh to Inverness, Inverness.’ And look at that, look what I did then. I stayed at that big hotel at Inverness. It’s a beautiful hotel, you know, attached to the station and that’s where I spent the night there. It was marvellous and after the war [cough] there was a cheap trip going up to inverness by train and I took my wife there. And I said to Bet, I said, I said, er, ‘We’ll go to Inverness.’ It was a two day or three day trip to Inverness and it was a cheap one or whatever. [background noise] And — oh, it’s her phone and I think she’ll get fed up with it — and I said, ‘We’ll go back up there Bet and it’ll be an experience. We’ll go up all the way up by train and we’ll stay at this hotel.’ Anyway, fair enough, we get up there, carrying our suitcase, I went up to the desk all — I was feeling on top of the world to treat my wife, to go back to recovery, to this spot. [cough] I went up to the desk and I said, ‘I’d like to book a double room for two, three nights.’ Whatever, and she said, ‘Oh right.’ And I said, ‘How much is it?’ She said, ‘It’s a hundred pound a night.’ This was in 1960, 1975. [clears throat] I’d retired but it was one of those retirement things, wasn’t it? You know, to treat my wife and I said, ‘How much?’ She said, ‘A hundred pound a night.’ I said, ‘I was here in 1944.’ I thought I was going to flannel her, you know, try to get a bit out of it, like, try to get it a bit cheaper, and I said, ‘Excuse me.’ I said, ‘Is there? Haven’t you got any?’ I said, ‘I’ve seen brochures. My wife—.’ She said, ‘It’s a hundred pounds a night.’ I can’t mimic, and she said, she says, ‘It’s a hundred pounds a night.’ I said, ‘So, a hundred pound a night.’ So, I said, ‘From Monday to Wednesday.’ She said, ‘It’s a hundred pound a night.’ I said, ‘Forget it.’ I didn’t know what I was saying because we’d, we’d gone up there by train. It was a cheap train ride up there. So we went outside the hotel and, of course, in them days, like, [unclear] there was always a policeman — did you know that? — at a railway station, nine times out of ten. Are you alright Sarah?
Sarah: Yes. I’m fine dad. Yeah.
RM: Have you got to go?
Sarah: No. It’s alright. Don’t worry.
So went outside and there’s this policeman there. He says, ‘Are you alright?’ Nice and friendly. He says, ‘Are you alright?’ I said, ‘No.’ I explained to him what happened. ‘We’ve come up here.’ He said, ‘Oh, [unclear].’ I said, ‘We can’t afford it.’ I guess we could have if we’d pushed it, don’t you?
Sarah: I think you could have, father.
RM: And, er, anyway I went outside and your mum was outside and I said, ‘It’s a hundred.’ She said, ‘We aren’t staying here.’ So, this policeman, he said, ‘Oh, don’t worry.’ And there was a taxi rank outside and this he said, like, ‘Fred, here.’ So this chap come over and he said, ‘I’ve two wanderers here.’ He said, ‘Can you find them digs for the night?’ ‘Oh, aye.’ He said, ‘Get in the car.’ He drove, we went straight round to this, this lady, bed and breakfast. We went in and it was marvellous. Three night’s bed and breakfast. I, I don’t know how much it was but it was marvellous and we had a lovely three days up there and I didn’t have to spend a hundred pound a night. It was a colossal amount. But it is a beautiful hotel, it is honestly, it is a beautiful hotel.
IL: I don’t know if it’s still there actually.
RM: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know somebody that — yes it is. And so that was it. That was the hotel I was posted to and I thought it’s be nice to go back. And the following morning there was a jeep. What the devil did they call it that place? It was Brackla. Anyway he knew where to go. It was an RAF jeep and we drove across country and it’s all, all cross country, you know, from Inverness to the other side. I wish I could remember the name. It, it’s fairly popular but, um, that was on the coast and then gets sent to this demented aircrew. It was a joke. I wasn’t, I was no more demented — I might have been, I might have been scratching the door, as I say, I might have been [unclear].
Sarah: Who wouldn’t have been?
RM: I might have been — I was under a psychiatrist when I come out. Pardon?
Sarah: Who wouldn’t have been after that?
RM: What?
Sarah: Scratching the door. I said, ‘Who wouldn’t have been?’
RM: Oh, yes Sarah. Yeah, I realise that.
IL: And all the time and you were there for six months and just sort of —
RM: Oh no, no, no. After I’d seen what was going on and I saw the sergeants’ mess —
IL: Oh, I see. Sorry. I was getting a bit confused, sorry.
Sarah: [unclear] six months.
RM: I tend to go from one thing to another. No, no. I should have gone there for six months. It was a rest camp for demented aircrew. It was very popular. Nobody thought anything about it.
IL: How long were you there for?
RM: No more than two months.
IL: A couple for months.
RM: It might have been — do you what Sarah?
Sarah: You asked to leave didn’t you?
RM: Oh yeah, yeah. I saw the, as I say, I laid in bed and watched the sergeant’s mess burn, watched it burn. Well, I couldn’t understand. I laid in bed and saw these flames and I took no notice until the following day. They burnt it down to the ground. It was burnt to the ground. They were wooden you see.
IL: And all the time you were there you were taking the venal barbital, so did you have to have medical clearance to leave or did you —
RM: Now you’re asking me a question. I would say [clears throat] don’t forget when I went — when you got posted to another station I would say that my medical records would have followed me. That’s what I, I — I shall be honest, I cannot put it to mind. I don’t think, I think I stopped taking them when I got to Ireland. I think I thought what do I — I’m sure I did, I don’t want to take these things any more. I didn’t feel like taking them. That was, that was probably what I thought, you know, but I couldn’t help thinking about them. It was —
IL: Because it would have been an interesting, you know, as a doctor, um, you would think you wouldn’t want people flying who were taking them. But if there was no, if there was no, you know, medical, you know — I think people thought they weren’t particularly — I think people thought they were fairly innocuous drugs in those days, barbiturates.
RM: No. When I came out and we came back to you, we came back to Yo—, we came back to York, came back to Thirsk, came back to live at my mother in laws. Now then —
Sarah: Were you married to my mum then?
RM: Where?
Sarah: When you were in Scotland?
RM: Yeah. Oh no, not during the war.
Sarah: I didn’t think so.
RM: Oh, no, no, no.
Sarah: Then you went to Ireland.
RM: I went to Ireland on Transport Command via — oh gosh, I hated it.
Sarah: But then what, where did you go from Ireland?
RM: I went back on Bomber Command. I told him — well, I won’t tell you about that. That was really truly self-inflicted. Something happened. I went without leave. I buggered off with old Darkie Thorne, my very dear friend, and we went down to Belfast and stayed at the — it wasn’t very — this friend of mine, he got shot down and he walked back, and I met him in Ireland. We were like brothers. We were, and he was a beggar, and he come back and I remember him. And he saw me and we ran to one another. Oh, he said, ‘We’ll have a good time.’ And of course, it was Darkie Thorne and me and it was on the squadron. He said, ‘Look at this.’ And in those days, of course, you got paid in cash and he’d been a prisoner. He had been a prisoner of war and he’d been shot down but he’d was rescued by a French family and he, what we called, walked back. He’d got the caterpillar and it was what we called — he’d walked back. And we met him in Northern Ireland and he said [laugh], and, ‘Look.’ He said, ‘We’re going to spend this.’ I mean he’d been gone about six months and when come back like he’d been to get paid and they didn’t have a bank. You took your money as you were paid and he said, ‘Look. We’re going to have some fun. We’re going to have some fun with this in Belfast.’ And we were, it was about ten miles from Belfast, isn’t it? That international airport?
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It will be.
RM: Yeah, and, er, I thought, ‘Well, I daren’t get into any more trouble.’ I’d been de-commissioned once. I’d lost six months seniority with, you know, getting into a bit of trouble like and I said, I thought, ‘I’d better slow down here.’ Anyway, we were snowbound over there. It snowed from — I was over there in the October I suppose and it snowed and snowed and snowed. We didn’t do a lot of flying and so we were grounded. And when you were grounded you were at school. You went to school. And, anyway, it was one of those times when you got — you couldn’t get bored on the squadron but being there with all this snow and this time he come at me and said, ‘Do you fancy a trip down to Dublin?’ And I said, ‘We can’t Darkie. We can’t. We’ll be interned.’ And, he said, ‘I’ll fix it all up.’ He was a wide boy. He was a Cockney [laugh] and his mum and dad and his sister had been killed in an air raid in London so he was one of those. He, he didn’t just hate the Germans, he detested them. He would have shot every one of them if he could have done and that was his attitude. But he was, he was a Cockney, he says, ‘Would you like to go down to Dublin?’ I said, ‘We can’t Darkie.’ I said, ‘We can’t. We’ll be interned.’ He said, ‘Leave it with me.’ He said, ‘I’ve been looking around.’ He said, ‘There’s a second hand shop in Belfast and we’ll get some civvy suits and we’ll have a rag round and I’ll get, I’ll get two passports.’ And he was going on and I said, ‘Forget it.’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a very good name Darkie.’ And he said, ‘Well you’re alright. You’ve got a commission.’ And poor old Darkie hadn’t even got his flight sergeant. He was still a sergeant he said, ‘Oh, don’t worry about that. I’ll fix it up.’ And I wasn’t really keen to go to Dublin because the Irish are a different people and there was a lot of, as you know as I do, the IRA were still floating around at that time. [clears throat] Anyway, time went by [clears throat] he said, ‘I’ve got your suit.’ I said, ‘You’re joking.’ He said, ‘No. I’ve got your suit.’ He says, ‘A nice brown suit.’ [laugh] He said, ‘I’ve got your suit.’ He said, ‘A nice brown suit.’ I said, ‘What about passports?’ ‘I got them.’ He said, ‘Yes. There’s a place in Belfast where I’ve gone.’ I said, ‘You must be joking.’ ‘No.’ He said, ‘Money and I’ve plenty of it.’ And he has I’m not kidding you. He had a roll. And he said, ‘You don’t pay for a thing so don’t question it.’ [unclear] and the snow in them days, it seemed to stay. We seemed to get snow over there from October right through to February and we did. Very rarely we take off and so you seemed to be in the same spot. Anyway, went to Belfast, got on a train, about halfway down — I don’t know how far we were — and the gendarmes got on, whatever you called them, checked out passports. Have you been to Dublin, Sarah?
Sarah: I have.
RM: Have you? You know the big bridge there then and, and the hotel Ma— it has a Canadian name, Ma—
IL: Montreal?
RM: [unclear] So we go, go and stays at this hotel, books in at this hotel. Well, for four days I can hardly remember, honestly, and I’m not a, I was never an alcoholic, but we drank Guinness chasers. That was Guinness and whisky. And we were drunk from — the only thing we thought about was an evening meal and that’s the honest true. We’d have breakfast. Anyway, it comes to about four days and I says, ‘We’ll have to be back.’ The weather seemed to be lifting and I said, ‘We’ll have to be back Darkie.’ ‘No, no, no, no.’ He said, ‘We’re all right.’ And I gave in and said, ‘Just one more night then.’ He said, ‘Yeah. It will be alright. Went back to camp, walks into the camp, first thing, ‘Flying Officer Moore report to the orderly room. I thought, ‘Oh Jesus.’ I said, ‘This is it, Darkie.’ He said, ‘Oh, tell them to — off.’ But I was commissioned and I respected that commission. Don’t get me wrong, I did, I respected it and, anyway, I went down to the orderly room. I thought they were going to put me in irons, honestly. Went before the CO. There again, the old documents come out and he says, ‘I don’t understand it. I’ve been looking at your documents.’ And he said, ‘How do you feel?’ And I thought ‘Christ. I’m not going back to — no way am I ever going back to — no way am I going back to that camp.’ I said, ‘I feel fine.’ And he said, ‘What are you doing?’ And what had happened was, my crew had crewed up and flown to Karachi with Transport Command and he said, ‘Well, your crew went without you. We had to find another flight engineer, didn’t we?’ And I said, ‘Oh.’ You know, I expected it. No good saying I didn’t and he said, ‘I don’t really know.’ He said, ‘But you see we don’t want fellas like you in Transport Command.’ He said, ‘We don’t want officers like you in Transport Command.’ And all of a sudden I thought, ‘Bugger yer.’ And I turned round to him and I said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you something. I don’t want to be in Transport Command.’ And he stood back and I said, ‘I don’t want to be in Transport Command.’ And he got hold of my papers and hit the desk and he said, ‘What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I want to go back to Bomber Command.’ He said, ‘Idiot.’ I said, ‘I want to go back.’ I said, ‘That’s where the camaraderie is.’ And he said, ‘Right.’ He said, ‘Be outside your billet at eight.’ Again, you know, he said, ‘Be outside your billet.’ And he said, ‘There’ll be a jeep to take you to Belfast.’ He said, ‘You’ll get on a train.’ He said, ‘You’ll get on a train.’ He said, ‘You’re posted to Lindholme.’ So that’s when I got back to Lindholme to Bomber Command.
IL: So, did you fly any more operations from Lindholme?
RM: Not from Lindholme. We were non-operational. Well, we weren’t non-operational because we were flying and we — they flew the backsides off us. I told your mum. She was always playing hell because my wife was a WAAF on the same station and I was courting her, you know, and fortunately I caught her, didn’t it? And what happened was the — as I say I put my name down, 617, 67, 76 Squadron and that was where I went back. And I said to him, I said, ‘I don’t want to be with Transport Command.’ And he stood back, you know, one of those stiff upper lip chaps and he said, ‘Be outside your billet at 8 or 9 o’clock.’ And said, ‘They’ll take you to Belfast Station and you’re posted to Lindholme. Idiot.’ And I just walked out. I didn’t even turn round and salute him. I thought, ‘Beggar yer.’ But it was another experience wasn’t it, you know?
IL: Oh, absolutely.
RM: Yeah, it was. Another court martial. Dear, oh dear, but —
IL: Were you actually court martialled for that?
RM: Pardon?
IL: Were you court martialled for that?
RM: Oh, no, no, no.
IL: No?
RM: Oh, no, no, no. That’s was how, really and truthfully, I’ll be honest with you, I know I got away with it because I’d done thirty-one trips. I was a hero and they knew it. I’d done my bit, hadn’t I? That was it in a nutshell, I can tell you that now. That was why when he turned to me and, you know, he said that, and I knew he meant it, but at that time I thought, ‘Why should I lick his backside and pretend?’ It was no good pretending. I hated Transport Command. I hated it while I was there and for him to turn round to me and tell me he didn’t want my type. He didn’t want my type in Transport Command and I was as good as any of them. In fact, I was better than them because I’d come from Bomber Command.
IL: Absolutely, absolutely. I’m going to switch this off now, Ray.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AMooreR160727
Title
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Interview with Raymond Moore
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:49:26 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Ian Locker
Date
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2016-07-27
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond Moore flew 31 operations as a flight engineer with 408 Squadron. He describes initial training at Skegness and then further training at Cosford, Halton and St Athan. He describes the crewing-up procedure at Eastmoor and describes the accommodation at various RAF stations including Linton, where he was billeted at Beningbrough Hall, and at Lindholme. He also gives vivid accounts of difficult trips, including high winds on a Berlin operation on the 24th of March 1944 and being coned by searchlights in the Rostock and Bremen areas and being thrown about as the pilot did a corkscrew manoeuvre.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Rostock
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
408 Squadron
426 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
faith
fear
flight engineer
lack of moral fibre
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Brackla
RAF Cosford
RAF East Moor
RAF Halton
RAF Lindholme
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF St Athan
recruitment
searchlight
sport
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/855/10860/PHanksJ1602.1.jpg
ca4d3cdabbea75088e11175107102fce
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/855/10860/AHanksJ160622.2.mp3
dca6ce82ecad9a869f7eadfd2dd1907c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hanks, John
J Hanks
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Hanks (b.1922, 1453357 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer and was posted to the Shetlands.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hanks, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive. The interviewer is Ian Boole and the interviewee is Mr John Hanks. Thank you for telling your story today John. Also present is Rita May, Mr Hanks’ daughter. And the interview is taking place at Mr. Hanks’s home in Potterhanworth in Lincoln on the 22nd of June 2016, at approximately 2.20 pm. Over to you, John.
JH: Yeah. Well, I can also answer any questions you like to ask me. Be the best way. Or do you want me to go through the whole?
IB: If you’d like to start with you preservice and your early days.
JH: Yeah, what before this.
IB: before the war.
JH: Well just, yeah, my father, biological father is not here now, he served in the First World War in India. I was born in 1922, poor family obviously and grew up in Battersea, London, left school at fourteen, ordinary elementary school, went to work, 1936 I started work, I was fourteen then and time presses on, 1937 comes round, ‘38 and the signs of war, Mr, what’s his name, went across with a piece of paper?
IB: Chamberlain.
JH: Chamberlain, Mr Chamberlain comes up with a bit of paper, peace in our time, [unclear] when you think about it, we weren’t ready, so 1938 passes, breathe a sigh of relief, thank God for that, no war but 1939, what happens? It happens, Hitler walks into Czechoslovakia we start war, so [unclear] onwards I’m still living in Battersea, London, my mates join the LDV, which became the Home Guard, we guarded bridges, Battersea bridges, things like that and then we had the Blitz start, but I lived through the whole of the Blitz, from beginning to the very end, night after night after night, it’s unbelievable, youngsters said, I can’t imagine what it would be like to live and try to sleep under noise of aircraft, guns and bombs coming down, unbelievable, I can hardly believe it myself today now but we survived. 1941 I decide I’ve got to go up, I’m gonna be called up anyway and I want to go into the Royal Air Force, I like mechanical, I liked things like that so I joined the Royal Air Force, go down to Croydon, there are offices there to join up, asked a few questions, no, I‘m not very good at maths, and when the officer asked me how often, add a half and a third together, I just [unclear] together [unclear] so he said to me, well, he said, I’ll put you down for ACAGD but I didn’t know what it was, aircraft and general duty so that’s it and waited to get called up, sent to [unclear], sent down to Penrhos in South Wales, got down there, kitted out, you know, [unclear] then sent over to Weston-super-Mare and that’s where we started the basic training, marching up and down, sleuthing to the front and the right and all this, anyway, put on guard at the, you know, new pier down there, given a rifle, no ammunition, no, might have hurt somebody [laughs] but we got a rifle anyway and we put down there we were told, you know [unclear] anybody, it goes there and that you know, anyway and from there passed out the end of the training, sent up to Edinburgh, which was [unclear] at the time, I forget what squadron was there, I think it was, I’m not sure, a fighter squadrons up there because the Germans were coming in sometimes up the, you know, the, I forget the river now, what’s the river, where Edinburgh runs, I forget the river now, anyway, they would come up there and attack, you know, go back and I’m put on, looking after the air crew, cause some of the air crew, French pilots learning to take off and landing on aircraft carriers, you know, and on air the best [unclear] in case is a crash and the pilots burning so it [unclear] and it worries me and I’ll tell this I was and I don’t think I gotta tell you and [unclear] and so he says, oh, so [unclear] to get me posted so I get posted up to Shetland islands where I am up at Sullom Voe on PBY Catalinas which is American aircraft and that’s where we, you know, doing their work from there, and I get interested in armoury so I’m put in the armoury section, helping armourers doing fiddly jobs and interesting, so I decide I’ll remuster, see if I can remuster to armourer I [unclear] for, you know, remustering, I’m accepted and I sit down to create a new letter for on an armourer’s course and there I was down there knowing all about every armour under the sun, weapons, all kind of weapons, hydraulics, turrets, the lot, I passed out as AC1 so I’ve covered AC2 now to AC1, that’s not bad, and I was posted to Swinderby in Lincoln here with 1660, HBCU which is heavy Bomber Command unit, so I’m posted there, what we’re doing there, we are training crews in [unclear] to work in Lancasters or Halifaxes so if we got Halifaxes there and we got, so when I get there we got Halifaxes, we only got the Lancasters so on there armourer I’m shown me jobs, another armourer tells me what I have to do each day so I learn that, so every day I will have to go out in the morning to make aircraft dedicated to me and I will have to check every armour, that’s the ammunition, the 303 Brownings, the turret system, the hydraulics, the power technics, everything, any can [unclear], the carrier, the bomb carriers, the lot, so I have to do that every day and then I’d have to sign form seven hundred, I will sign a form seven hundred in my trade, all the other trades are, you know, you will be a mechanic, you would have to sign, electrician they also signed it, the last one to sign would be the captain the aircraft, he is satisfied, he signed it, now that aircraft is fit to fly, that’s the last what I would do and that would be, and that would have left us there to the next job, next aircraft or in between flights inspection just to check everything is going ok and that’s what I would have to do as an armourer and then of course, I think, after being there for a while, they sent me down to Waddington here and I got a feeling, they at the beginning of the war, they were trying to, they were using armourers as air gunners because you had no better gunner than an armourer who knew all about, if a [unclear] dropped a gun, you knew how to clear it, an ordinary gunner who wasn’t an armourer might be, what I do now? So I think it was trying to do the same with me, when we went to Waddington, they would put us on a, into a sort of an imitation turret where you would fire at imitation aircraft flying but that’s all that and there and it came up when I was sent to East Kirkby, where I was attached to 57 and 630 Squadron and there we were bombing up, you know, proper because Swinderby, the only bombing I have done at Swinderby was putting practice bombs up, dynamite bombing would be a bomb which would just be smoked when it came up, if you were bombing at night, it would be a flash bomb, a flash grenade and eight pounders it was all putting up but when we went to, when I went to East Kirkby, we was bombing up for real, we was bombing up on the cookies, that’s the four thousand pounder, o might be an eight thousand pounder and I haven’t put up a twelve thousand pounder, I think I put up an eight thousand pounder but I most certainly put up plenty of four thousand pounders, they called them cookie, and of course you put a cookie up and you put rows of five hundred or two fifty pound bombs except at one day we was putting up a cookie and canisters of incendiaries [unclear] and the incendiaries is a big can, inside the can is about, I think about fourteen incendiaries, they all fit in place, they are octagonal put together but each one keeps the [unclear] out, you in and then there’s a cross by that comes across now when they drop them, the bomb aimer selects the drop bars, the drop bars fall away and all the incendiaries come out, when they go out, they’re alive and I’m up in front position and I, we put these canisters up and I’m up at the very top so I’ve got to come all down to the bomb armourer below, ok, is on? Wind it up, very slowly up cause the can of incendiaries to top position, now it’s clear so I released but the thing was the cable wasn’t in and all canisters went straight away down, right across the bomb trolley and bent it all up but not one drop bar fell out so luckily saved the situation [laughs] but I sweat a bit [laughs] but that’s about the only incident I can ever remember that happened to me. It’s, we use to have a bit of a fun when we used to have to, when we bombed up it seemed to be, the bombs would come up, fill up with petrol or whatever, the bomb, we would come out, bomber, I guarantee you every time we finished, change loads, change loads and he comes down, petrol [unclear] comes up, for several reasons I can understand is the enemy couldn’t work out the distance when we were going or the amount of fuel it was carrying, if the, you know, found out, he was put in so many gallons of fuel in, it would give some idea of where that plane, they would gonna go. And I think that was the idea, why they changed loads the last minute to, you know, and that’s what we but coming back to Swinderby we were there, they were training, training crew, they were trained in take-off and landing so circuits and bumps we called them, diversions, now the diversions as far as I know, HBCU, 166 HBCU would form up with other HBCU [unclear], 54 and they would form up in a big [unclear] of aircraft and they would take-off and away, the point was the enemy would get the guess, they’re gonna make a raid over there but they won’t, they might as well go over there, so we were diverted, it was diversion so once again, the enemy was getting [unclear] and that’s part of the job of 1660, so that’s about all as much I can tell you of 1660 anyway [laughs] but is there anything else, you know, can I tell you?
IB: How was your relationship with the aircrew, you come in contact with them [unclear]?
JH: Yeah, very, well, sometimes I’d have to go out there and I want, I can’t check the turrets cause hydraulic system, I can’t check the turrets without the engines running, the engines are gonna work to get the pumps pushing the fuel for you through, you know, so the hydraulics worked, then once I run the engines, certain engines for the front or rear or mid upper, run the engines up and get in, and check them, make sure the guns were elevate and depressed and the turret would go around cause we are using a Frazer-Nash turret, it was the best turret I’ve ever come across, two grips like this, you go like that and when you are on the turret, [unclear] you know, it was a very good turret, but all oil, oil you know, and that was the best, the other turret I worked on was the in the Halifax, I forget the name of it but it had a central control like this and it wasn’t very good, you know, wasn’t so good as, you know, it was so easy and but yes alright, I get the aircrew to run the engine, they were all good lads, we were all lads together, you know, there was no quibbling, I mean, I’ve been down in Lincoln and one of the officers sitting in the bus, pat me on the back, oh God, he said, now the drink we get in town, it was just like that, you know, and I’m a young lad, he’s an officer and he’s talking to me, I’m so [unclear] [laughs] but yeah, the comradeship, that was [unclear] about the services and the army the same I suppose, but in the Royal Air Force the comradeship was unbelievable, I mean, I went down to Metheringham in, I think it was number 9 Squadron, used to be down, I’m not sure now and al goes in it and the curator in this museum he’s in it and he says, you know, this be about, he showed this bit about a DVD about armourer, you know, yeah, I’m talking to him so, you know, as I said, you know, what rank were you? Oh yeah, I thought, he would say, you know, I was sergeant, flight sergeant, oh, he says, I was group captain, I said, you know what? I said, it’s the first time in my life without standing attention to salute you, of course, he says, sir [laughs] I said, I was in the [unclear], he said, you do a good job, he said, it was stranger when he said that, you know, and he said, group captain, [unclear] [laughs], you know yourself, ay? Group captain, oh dear, oh dear, that’s what I liked about the Christmas time, during New Years’ time down at Swinderby, in the Christmas time all yerks, we all sit down and the officers are coming round, I suppose you know it, and they serve you and you know, and he’s great, you can chat but you know it’s still officers and I remember on New Year’s Eve, be [unclear] on the naffy, we were all in there and the CO comes in as well and the adjutant and all you know, all the big nobs, they are all joining hands, you know, the Auld Lang Syne, is good fun, yeah, is all, great it was, anyway so we all go back to the bed that night, yeah, so we are getting in bed and while we are in bed, we are asleep, and the signal starts, action stations parachute, action stations parachute, bloody hell, out of bed! We had to get out of bed quick, dressed, downstairs, grab a rifle, get outside, on parade, get in the truck, taken out to the airfield, they take us out the airfield, good God, got standing, gotta guard the aircraft I’m standing there, get captured by the army, it’s a trial, the army come in they captured us [laughs] but it was just to show you right if it was, you know, but the army took part in it and it was good though but at the time you didn’t know when you heard this tannoy system going action stations parachute, oh dear, oh dear, [unclear] but oh yeah, lovely, we’ll [unclear]
IB: When you arming the aircraft, what sort of conditions were you working under, as regards thinks the weather conditions and the time that you had to turn round [unclear] to get [unclear] and back?
JH: Well, you see, I spent a lot of time at Swinderby, which was a training centre really for aircrew, so, it wasn’t as operational, so we, we weren’t supposed tied down so much, I mean, if the gunner ops is got to be, they happened really time, no doubt, [unclear] go out every morning doing a DI and every tradesman go and do their part of the job, it sometimes it was a job to get the aircrew to run the engines for you, it was just one of those things but if the weather is bad, course you still had to do it, I mean, I had to go in aircraft and it’s really freezing cold and snowing and you had to get onto the tail end of the aircraft because the RSJ on the rear turret has got a leak, I had to go out and check it, of course that’s not my job so I report it to the fitters, you know, so the fitters come and do their job but you know, you still have to go out and do your job not matter what the weather was like, you know, even [unclear], you know, it just had to be done, clear, might have to go out and clear the [unclear], clear the snow off them another thing, get snowed up you gotta clear the snow off cause, I mean, even flying at night just the same, you were still training at night, day or night, flying, I mean, some of the nights I will be awake all night flying duties, I‘ll have to go out at six and go out there, wait there, wait till the aircraft took off, then I could lay down fall and get some sleep till they come back or come back for a leak or something, you know, which we had to go out and check and let’s see, I all day, the aircrew, luckily night flying duties I’d go to the mess and get a good supper you know normally you wouldn’t laugh but I mean when we had an ordinary and supper at the mess I mean you wouldn’t get eggs and things like that but if it is a night flying duty the crew, they would get eggs, we get them as well, yeah, luckily. Weren’t supposed to be, go them, anyway. What else got there then?
IB: We talked a little bit earlier of how your thoughts and feelings about the fact that you were loading bombs onto an airplane so that it could potentially go and kill people
JH: Yeah.
IB: What were your thoughts and feelings about that at the time?
JH: At the time, I thought it was a good thing, I thought, well, we are doing a good job here, you know, East Kirkby, we are putting the bombs up, they are gonna go out, get killed, thousands of Germans, good, [unclear] dead Germans, good, I can’t feel that way now, I just can’t, if I people that see Germany now, same age as me, in the war just the same, [unclear] and we are all good friends, you know, and that’s how it should have been, how it should be, as I said, I went to the museum for the Holocaust, yeah, I’ve been to Norwich, Norfolk, no sorry it’s, Nottinghamshire, I went there talking to the chap who was lecturing that, I said, people don’t seem to remember that we were fighting the Nazis, not fighting the German people, we weren’t fighting the German people although that’s what he was, it was getting over to so when I was young during the war I we are fighting the German people but we weren’t, we were fighting the Nazi regime not the people and that’s, that is what I feel now but then it was good, I think, we’re killing them, let’s kill some more, kill them all, is nothing bad like the dead Germans yeah, so, you know, to look at life like that, but I was nineteen, twenty then but I’m ninety four now, I can’t feel that way, you know, as I say, you to think that I put a bomb up to think now that bomb I put up there young children, babies maybe, completely innocent, I’ve helped to kill them, I’ve helped, not killed, I’ve helped to do it, the aircrew not their fault, not even the aircrew, they were ordered to do it, they’ve got to do it, they’ve got no choice about it, I’ve got no choice about it, it’s the war, I’ve been told I’ve got to do it this thing, you see, during the war years when you was in the service, I was in the Royal Air Force, yeah, and the army, navy, your life is not yours anymore, it belongs to the, the country that you live in, it’s your life belongs to them now, not you, you’re just a tool, you’re absolute tool, someone pulling the strings, [unclear] I’m told, that’s terrible, four years terrible, God, go ley, [unclear] I don’t know,
IB: At the end of your time in the RAF, were you demobbed at the end of the war, you stayed [unclear]?
JH: No, no, I didn’t want to stay, no, I actually I was sent to Birmingham after I was, you know, that’s it, don’t want armourers no more so I sent down to [unclear] in London they sent me back up to Birmingham, when I get there I’m told, go to the police and I, [unclear] and I went to the police so I went to the police, can you see, yeah, ok.
US: He’s coming.
JH: Yeah, I went to the police and of course
[tape stopped]
JH: My demobbed number was number 42 and I was up at Birmingham at the time and as a recruiting officer, I wasn’t officer but that’s why they called a recruiting officer, you know, the people want to come in and join the Royal Air Force I would interview them, ask them questions, if they failed, turned down the army, and you picked the best Royal Air Force you sent them in to see the officer and why, my number’s coming up next, I’ll be out, when the DROs come up next month be deferred, put back and I was dying to get out and I went in the office and I told him, I feel like deserting, he said, get me victory House in London, get me, he did mention a name at [unclear], I said I wasn’t quite sure of that so I had to ring up Victory House, you got to find Victory House, they called me back in the office, get your kit packed tonight, he said, I got you posted down to [unclear] so I got posted to Hall line Acton where I was, you know, recruiting now, it was great, was [unclear] every night lovely so it was like being home but I finally got demobbed from there but then, can I go to bed Rita? But it was there, when I was at Swinderby and used to come down to Lincoln, we got into the castle, look at the old Victorian prison they opened, we would go in there, so me and my mate goes in there, there’s two girls in there, we chat [unclear] very young men, naturally, talked to them and this girl spoke to them, her name is Rita so I went [unclear] took me to her so can I see you again? She says, yeah, so we arranged to see her again and what I should do when I was back in camp, I’ll bring her up cause she can I speak to Ms. Rita Chapman, please? Yeah, so she put me through, she come on phone and I am off duty, can I come down and see you? Yeah, come then, so go down there and we used to come down and we had a good friendship, it was platonic, it was a true, honest friendship, nothing more and nothing less and we used to go out cycling in the country [unclear] we enjoyed that companionship and eventually I got posted away so back down to [unclear] from there I got demobbed and when I was, I [unclear] uniform so I took it out, put this photo in a letter, wrote on it to this girl Rita Chapman, put the letter, this is my photograph and I want you to look after it for me, so I posted it to her, war’s over, I’m out. Fifty seven years later, I might be, my daughter’s mother died, Gladys she died, and we used to go out and [unclear] and I come up once for me and I went down to the Brayford Pool in a pub, William the Fourth, and talked to the lady who was chef here, she was clearing when I was outside, I said, you’re wasted, you’re alright, I said, used to be with the Royal Air Force during and told about this young girl I met Rita Chapman, she said, what a lovely story, she said, why not tell it to the Lincolnshire Echo and read it, she said, promise you, I promise so I went over there, I saw this report apparently he is well known, [unclear] and I forget his name now, his real name, name Pete something, and I went to see him, I said, I don’t know why and that’s it so that weekend I go back home and on a Monday on that weekend when I get back home, the phone rings, I picked the phone up, so a voice said, is that Mr. Hanks? I said, yes, speaking. So she said, this is Rita and I know it wasn’t my daughter Rita, is there any other Rita I knew? And it was this Rita Chapman and we met then after that, I came up here and we were married in 2010, won’t we? We got married. And I’ve been here ever since but I lost her unfortunately in ’13, bloody cancer again, but we had ten, eleven years, wonderful, and you see, my daughter’s name when I got back home we had a son, my son was born in 1947 and he was named Raymond, his photo’s up there now, he’s dead now, anyway and we had a girl, and my wife said, what shall we name her, baby girl? So I thought, I said, name her Rita and I say, let’s call her Rita, don’t ask me why and I said the reason I gave her the name is I didn’t know of anybody else so honest and true and trustworthy as this girl Rita Chapman because there nothing ever went wrong between us, nothing, she was a good companion and I must admit she was a good companion to me cause when you’re living with blokes all the time it’s nice to speak to a female and that’s how I named my daughter Rita, that’s how she got her name when she rang up she says it’s Rita [unclear] and that’s the part, you know, great but you know I thought she did listen and she said, cause everywhere we went, Rita would tell everybody, I think Rita in fact she was on the TV, they took us down to the studio, I forget where it is now, it was on the news, and they interviewed us down on the TV so Lincoln, all Lincoln knows about, I think so, must do, she tells, everybody she met, she would tell her this story about how we met no matter who it was she’d tell, now I’m telling you, she would have told you right [laughs].
IB: Tells us a little bit about your life after demob, and how they treated you and how you [unclear] about it?
JH: I was demobbed, at the time I was pleased to get out, I was pleased to get out, naturally. I went back to work in me old job, I was a metal polisher, and I was polishing for chrome plating, you know anything to do with chrome plating, if it was a bumper bar for a car or car handles, anything that was chrome plated, we were polishing the metal ready for plating and I for quite a number of years dropped and changed but in them days I could pack up me job and say to the manager, I’m going at twelve o’clock, it’s elven o’clock, hour, one hour, [unclear] walked down the road, go and get another job, not like it’s today, I mean, I ‘ve been in and out jobs, packing up here, go down the road, go in there, go somewhere else, all the time, all the time, [unclear] I mean, once I was working away, I just come back and it was the worst ever, you come back, you gotta go to work, and this chap, [unclear] at me, he said, oh, you’ll have to work till half past seven tonight, so I’m not, said, you’re after, I’m not, so I’m packing up, that was it, so I packed up, I wouldn’t gonna work, I was, I must admit, I wasn’t workaholic, I worked till six o’clock, that’s it, I finished, I’d do no more, enough, so anybody says me you work, you know, I’m not, you don’t tell me how I’m gonna work, I tell you when I’m gonna work, so that’s it, I worked till six o’clock and I finished, go home then, that’s alright, I’ve always been, and of course later on in the years, me and my mate we joined together, we made a little company of our own, we were self-employed and we were known as T&H metal polishers in London and we’d done quite well, we done good work and we done very well, earning good money, no problem at all, never had any problems, until time came to retire I said, I’ve had enough so I pack and I gave it up, I could have gone on big business, but I wasn’t workaholic, I’m afraid not, our life is more important than money, you know, you got to have money to live earn enough but that’s it, then enjoy yourself, enjoy life, not there forever, but I think life treated me pretty well, actually I mean, I’ve been quite satisfied by my life, I mean, I did have cancer in the bowels, bowel cancer once but it was in the colon so I was did chop it out and that was it but I mean , I was lucky [unclear] I’ve met, I felt I’ve been lucky all me life, I can’t think of any bad luck, only, sometimes things are going wrong, then they go right, no stay wrong, gone right, I fell as if I’ve been very, very, very lucky, I went through the whole war and never even cut me finger, so I mean, look at some of the things that some people have to go through, illnesses, you know, or [unclear] or trouble galore. But never, I can’t grable, satisfies with me life, don’t ask for any more, health, happiness, nothing more, nothing less.
IB: What do you feel is now about your service days and?
JH: Looking back over the years of me service days, I enjoyed me service days not the reason for me service days, the war, not that but being in service, I, the service days were enjoyable, comradeship, friendship, you know, you couldn’t ask for more, you live in a barrack room full of fellows, you don’t argue, you know, you talk to each other, you know, you grab in the naffy your cup of tea, buy a beer or go out with them and, you know, you just, that was a part, that was a good part about, I enjoyed that part very much, that was the sad part when you had to leave it behind, really, it was only after I got out, that I began to feel sorry, I was dying to get out but then when the time came, I came out [unclear] I could have gone, could have stayed on obviously but I didn’t want to stay on, they were offering it to you, you could stay on to give you so much money, I forget what it was now, but I didn’t want to stay on but then after I got back, you know, got back into reality, you are working for a living, and you had to work hard, all my life as a polisher, I’ve always been, you got a price for a job, you got a job, you gotta polish it, you get payed for the price that job, you gotta use, you know, your brain, you gotta find the quickest way to do the job, and do it the right way, quality, it’s quality first, obviously, but you gotta give them the quality and you gotta give it to them as quick as you possibly can, the quicker you do it, the more money you can earn. So that was peaceful, I’ve done it all my life peaceful and that was tight, sometimes you get a job for polishing and it was tricky, very tricky and some of the jobs could have been dangerous, trying to polish it where you could get caught up in the tool and you cut your fingers off or God knows what, you know, that sometimes could be a bit dodgy, sometimes you get a job really easy when I first went back to it after the war, I went down, back to me old job, and we was doing [unclear] lighters at the time, and we was in them days when I was gonna back to work and I’d [unclear] the RAF and said to the people in the recruiting centre, I earned eight pound a week, eight pound, they laughed at me, eight pound a week cause in them days I a lot of money, I did a lot of money, but when I started work back on Ronson lighters twenty one pound a week for a while but then of course Ronson decided, you know, I’m not gonna pay this much money so my governors said, we not gonna pay that money to get the [unclear] down and so me and me mates said, right that’s it, we’re gonna go on strike, so we did, we didn’t go to work, what happened? We got sacked [laughs]. Got sacked, but there you are, there it goes, I mean, we should have said, well, yeah, I mean, if a good wage was eight pounds a week, to earn twenty one is a bad [laughs] yeah I excepted it but we didn’t wanna except that so he said, right, you’re out, that was it, out, and then, in them days they could do that, you know, they wanted to sack you, they could sack you, they can’t now, can’t they? Isn’t it? Some good jobs. [file missing]
IB: Ok.
JH: When do we start off again?
IB: Any thoughts about the things that you saw, any experience that has left? Lasting impression?
JH: Yes, Swinderby, I forget how many crashes I saw there actually but there was one I remember that came down just off the airfield in front of a cottage and I had to go out there after the rest of the had cleared the stuff away to get and check on the armour equipment that need to come out and inside the aircraft, what were the remains of the aircraft, there seemed to be the scalp of the pilot hanging on the control column, you know, his scalp and shoes on the ground that had come off the aircrew’s feet obviously so they must have taken the bodies away and left the bits and pieces, I checked things out that you know and [unclear] alright to do except I had to go to the burial of at least one of the crew, I’m not sure, but I had to go to a burial at a church at and, I forget where it is now, just outside of Swinderby, Bassingham or Disney, I’m not sure, there’s a church there, and I’ve the escort, part of the escort the coffin in for burial in the ground, it’s still up there and very often I go up there and I do walk up and down and pay my respects, you know, read and make sure that the there’s some there that occurred after I’d gone or before I arrived but there are some there that when I was there so will be the crew that I probably escorted into the burial ground and I do often go up there and pay my respects, you know, I think it’s best, you know nice to do, I think it’s nice, it takes you back in the years and you can relive the old times and you think about the old times and the comradeship, that’s the point the comradeship, you see, and it was, actually is a photo up there, up the top there, on the left is, one of the, can you see it? Is one up there which the guard room and next is [unclear] down the tab and the one on the right hand side is the SHQ headquarters at Swinderby, they’re not there now, they’ve taken away, it’s all gone now but that’s, but it’s nice, to, I often drive up there, just for the sake of reliving memories, go up there and I told you about and I stood there, I parked the car, sitting there and in the park on the runway and I the airfield would be the dispersal and this is where I’m sitting in the car and I remember bringing the aircrew, the aircraft through here, cross this road [alarm goes off]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Hanks
Creator
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Ian Boole
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHanksJ160622, PHanksJ1602
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:42:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Shetland
Description
An account of the resource
John Hanks joined the RAF and served as an armourer. Describes his role and his duties. Tells of his posting at Swinderby and East Kirkby. Gives a graphic and vivid account of an aircraft crash at RAF Swinderby. Describes comradeship between ground crew and aircrew. Expresses personal views regarding the bombing campaign.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
1660 HCU
bombing up
Catalina
crash
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
training