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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1505/28861/BAstonSParrinderNv1.1.pdf
5623406fcf338b227c52920c58519e5d
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Davies, Leslie and Jack
Leslie Alfred Davies
L A Davies
John Richard Davies
J R Davies
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Davies, LA-JR
Description
An account of the resource
49 items. Collection concerns Leslie Alfred Davies (1922-1996, 1581024 Royal Air Force) and his brother John Richard Davies ( - 1944, 1580941). Leslie served as a Lancaster navigator on of 50 Squadron completing his tour of 30 operations in March 1945. John served a Lancaster bomb aimer on 166 Squadron He was killed in action 3 August 1944. Collection consists of Leslie's crew's individual logbooks and biographies, operational histories, photographs of people, aircraft and a grave, documents and correspondence. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Murray Davies and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on John Richard Davies is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/105795/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Norman Parrinder born 20-02-22 in Louth Lincolnshire.
Son of Lillian and William Parrinder, eldest son, three brothers.
Died 8th May 2011
Wife: Ellen Rose Duffy - died 8th June 2010
Children: Michael John and Susan Rosemary
I know little of my father's war time career, he like so many, could not talk about his exploits until
just before his death. That was the time when I realised my father's bravery.
Hopefully these few memories I have will help to fill in a few gaps for your research.
*
When my dad realised that he was soon to be called up for active duty, he enlisted himself.
'there was no way I was going to be a foot slogger, so I decided to join the RAF. My mom didn't
speak to me for months.'
I believe, initially he was based at Linley Woods, Aldridge. Staffordshire (now West Midlands). This
was an underground cavern, used to store obsolete munitions. Opened in 1943.
It was at a local dance in the village hall in Rushall, a couple of miles from Aldridge, that he met my
mother, on 16th October or black Friday as he jokingly called it. They became engaged on 18th
January 1944. Apparently it was love at first sight for both of them and they remained together until
death, did indeed part them. He died 11 months after mom.
They were married on 15th July 1944. (Strangely enough I was born on their wedding anniversary ten
years later.) Their wedding photo shows a double winged RAF badge pinned to the front of mom's
dress. This badge I still have and will enclose a photo of it.
A photo that dad sent to mom, signed 'always yours Norman,' was dated on the back, March 1944
Ramsey Isle of Man. This I believe was a Bombing and Gunnery school.
Mom kept a telegram dated January 1945. 'INFORMATION RECEIVED AIRCRAFT LANDED IN FRANCE
CREW ALL SAFE AND WELL NOT YET RETURNED TO UNIT'
This I believe links to the bombing raid over Merseberg on 14th January 1945 where the plane was
badly hit after being attacked by night fighters. My dad told me just a snippet about this raid, but in
all my years it was the only time I saw tears well up in his eyes.
The story he told me was:
'we were badly hit and we were going down over enemy territory. On the radio I heard the pilot of
another plane give the command to "surround the lame duck." The two planes nearest to us
manoeuvred their planes and tipped their wings under our wings to stop us going down. When we
reached neutral territory the pilots let us go and we landed. Otherwise we could have been captured
as prisoners of war.' Mom at that time worked in a munitions factory, when she was told dad was
missing in action or shot down. '( couldn't eat sleep or go to work until I knew that he was safe.'
Presumably this was the time the telegram refers to. Mom always said that she dreaded a day linked
1
[page break]
to 7 i.e. 7th 14th 21st as it was always on one of these dates she was notified, or something
happened to dad in action.
Mom told me many times how dad was haunted by nightmares about what he had done in the war.
He was ashamed of the innocent people he knew he had killed, Dresdon being the worst. Also the
pain of seeing his friends killed deeply played on his mind.
Dad told me that it was when they were returning home and landing that the planes and crew were
in the worst danger. Enemy planes could attack them and they were unable to fight back. He said he
saw planes bombed with his friends on board.
Although dad had been raised a strict catholic, he turned his back on religion after the war. 'no god
could exist and let that happen.'
At the end of the war he was sent to India, Madras I believe. He left a photo album of pictures taken
at this time. I will send you the ones with crew in them. I do have the complete album. He told me
how he loved it there and wanted mom to go out there to live, but she was too much a home girl. He
befriended a stray dog whilst there, it followed him everywhere. A photo of the dog is enclosed. He
was heartbroken when he had to leave it behind to come home.
Both my parents said the war years and just after were the best days of their lives. Friends were true
friends, and they all worked together to rebuild their lives. After the war dad returned to Rushall
where they lived in a prefab house. Dad was a highly skilled carpenter and made most of their
furniture, mom used to brag to the family how they were the first house in the village to have a
divan bed, dad had made it. He was wonderful at working with his hands, he made most of my
brother and my toys when we were growing up. Dolls house, fort etc. he could make anything from
just scraps of wood, he was amazing.
He became a carpet fitter and upholsterer, when I got married he carpeted my whole house from
expensive offcuts from jobs.
In the 1970's he and mom moved to Blackpool and opened a B&B, they move back to the Midlands
after a few years due to mom's ill health.
They then moved to Glastonbury, Somerset to be near me and my daughter. There they stayed until
mom died on 9th May 2010. Dad moved to the Isle of Wight to be in a care home near me (I lived on
a boat and he was very disabled), he was only there for 2 weeks before going into St Mary's hospital
where he died in my arms as my mother had also done. I returned their ashes to Glastonbury where
I scattered then in Glastonbury Abbey. King Arthur and Guinevere are said to be buried there. If it's
good enough for them, it's good enough for my mom and dad. They lie with a beautiful view of
Glastonbury Tor and the flat that they lived in for almost 20 years.
What can I say of my dad other than he was a gentleman in all ways. He was devoted to my mom
and his family right to the end. He was very loved by us all and we were very loved by him.
He lived for his granddaughter, Nicola Rachael, and was the nearest thing to a father that she had.
He also lived to see his first great granddaughter born Tillie Mia. Strangely enough, considering how
close my daughter was to my parents, my daughter went into labour on dad's birthday and was born
2 days later on dad's mom's birthday. Amelie Isobella was born on mom's birthday 28th April.
I hope this helps a little.
2
[page break]
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to make contact, my daughter and I are over the moon to
think that at last we will get answers to the questions we can no longer ask him. We look forward to
hearing anything about dad and his squadron. If there is any other help we can give, please let us
know. I will forward on to my brother all information we receive. Bless you for this, it means a lot.
All the best
Suzannah Aston
3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Norman Parrinder biography
Description
An account of the resource
Information about Norman Parrinder written by his daughter Suzannah Aston. Mentions meeting her mother and marrying as well as some recollections about operations including force landing in neutral territory. Continues with comments on his feelings and life after the war.
Creator
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S Ashton
Format
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Three page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Text. Personal research
Identifier
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BAstonSParrinderNv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Louth
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-07-15
1922-02-20
2011-05-08
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
animal
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
forced landing
heirloom
love and romance
missing in action
perception of bombing war
recruitment
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2004/43671/PSharlandRG1711.2.jpg
bb0f835b5febb5f9b899ab6591aef867
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Sharland, Robert George
R G Sharland
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Sharland, RG
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Robert George Sharland DFC (1921 - 1944, 138832 Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 156 Squadron and was killed 28 April 1944. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Miriam Sharland and catalogued by Benjamin Turner. <br /><br />Additional information on Robert George Sharland is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/225238/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Metal case
Description
An account of the resource
A case inscribed "Presented to PILOT OFFICER ROBERT GEORGE SHARLAND by the inhabitants of Thursley to mark their appreciation of the award of the DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS. 14th September 1943."
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-14
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Surrey
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Physical object
Format
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A photograph of a polished metal case
Identifier
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PSharlandRG1711
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Distinguished Flying Cross
heirloom
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2047/33337/MBiltonGHA175723-180914-02.2.jpg
8f6f2a26010952bff2640ab86fc1f961
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bilton, George Henry Albert
G H A Bilton
Description
An account of the resource
Nineteen items. The collection concerns George Henry Albert Bilton (b. 1923, 175723 Royal Air Force) and contains an oral history interview, his log book, correspondence and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 428 and 434 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anthony Bilton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bilton, GHA
Dublin Core
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Title
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Memorabilia
Description
An account of the resource
Red covered devotional booklet 'Daily Light, Morning Hour' and small blue cigarette case with catch. Both damaged by shrapnel.
Format
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Book and case
Type
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Physical object
Identifier
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MBiltonGHA175723-180914-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
faith
heirloom
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/219/20117/BCahirFSCahirFSv1.1.pdf
0fed7b7dff341486da97fdc5cf6b9c41
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cahir, Francis Shamus
Francis Shamus Cahir
Jim Cahir
Francis S Cahir
Francis Cahir
F S Cahir
F Cahir
J Cahir
Description
An account of the resource
44 items. An oral history interview with Francis Shamus "Jim" Cahir (419441 Royal Australian Air Force), letters, documents, photographs and a sub collection.
He flew operations as a mid upper gunner with 466 Squadron. His aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jim Cahir and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-09
2016-06-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cahir, FS
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] This narrative was written at the request of the 57/60 Batt assoc and it was repeated in Mein Annual Book HARD. N. BOLD April 2001 & April 2002 (I was a member of this Batt from Dec 1941 – Aug 1942 before my call up to the RAAF)
My squadron was No. 466, a R.A.A.F. Squadron stationed at Driffield and Leconfield, Yorkshire during the War years 1943 to 1945.
I was shot down by a German night fighter near Frankfurt On Main, the night of December 20/21, 1943. On that particular night our flight outward bound had been perfect, no sign of any night fighters, some flack and a little turbulence from the other bombers, 647 in total, as we crossed their slip stream – all in all, no worries!
The target was reached on time, target markers sighted and bombs were dropped spot on. Our course was set for home then suddenly “all hell” broke loose, there was a loud thump and the whole of the starboard wing burst into flames and both engines looked like two raging bonfires. A huge hole appeared in the fuselage. All this happened within minutes at approximately 7.45 pm.
I was to find out later that a German night fighter, a J.U.88 fitted with their latest secret weapon, an upwards firing cannon code named by the Germans “Schrage Musik” (sweet music) had attacked us from our blind spot directly beneath our fuselage and had fired incendiary shells into our petrol tanks.
History has shown, it was many months before the R.A.F. authorities became aware of the new weapon and tactics that was having such devastating effect upon bomber command.
Our aircraft lost height immediately and went into a spiral drive. [sic] The skipper struggled to get the aircraft back on a level keel whilst ordering the crew to abandon the aircraft. This all occurred at approximately 7,000 ft whereas we had been flying at 21,000 ft a few minutes earlier.
After leaving the aircraft by parachute, I floated down to earth and landed in a ploughed field alongside what I thought to be an air raid shelter but after inspection in the dark I could not find an entrance (I was later to discover that it was a potato and turnip storage for the winter months).
How I wished that I had listened more intently to those intelligence lecture on “If you are shot down in Germany”. However, a couple of items did sink through: 1. clear out of the area you land in quickly 2. Bury or hide your parachute and any other unnecessary equipment 3. walk at night and hide during the day.
These instructions I adhered to and after orientating myself headed to the distant Rhine River, walking along country roads and throwing myself into ditches if I heard anybody approaching.
I walked until almost daylight when I decided to hide up in a large pine forest until dark. It was in this forest that I heard what I believed to be dogs barking, and I was cold with fear that I was being hunted by savage dogs. At one stage when the barking was
[page break]
2
getting closer, I climbed a tree to avoid being torn to pieces. How long I was up the tree, I have no idea! But as soon as the barking subsided and moved away from me I made my way out of the forest and hid in a road culvert until I was ready to walk again. (It was not until I had been a P.O.W. for 6 months or more that I discovered from a fellow P.O.W. that the barking dogs I had heard were wild deer in the forest, he had experienced the same fear!).
The next night I continued walking westward, skirting little villages and continually jumping into evil smelling drains, at the sound of any movement around me. As daylight appeared I had to hurriedly find a place to hide, to dry myself out and if possible to sleep a little. The temperature at this time of the year in Europe is very low and it felt that it could snow. I chose a large barn on the outskirts of a small village, which I thought would be most suitable until I had to move again.
I made myself as comfortable as possible behind a large stack of firewood and proceeded to again count my money from the escape kit that had been issued to me. Why I counted that money so often I don’t know, as I had not spent any of since leaving the aircraft in such a hurry (maybe that’s where I got my inspiration to become an accountant after the War!)
The daylight hours passed very slowly, I dozed fitfully, awaking at almost every sound even though I felt reasonably secure behind my pile of firewood. During those hours I observed school children passing down the road to school and housewives going about their duties in the village.
The light was beginning to fade and I was anxious to make a move as soon as the coast was clear and darkness set in, so I counted my money once again! I studied my silk map, put my flying boots back on and was preparing to do a few exercises before the next stage of my journey towards the River Rhine, when I saw through the cracks in the wall of the bar, cracks that I had enlarged during the day, a man and two dogs approaching the barn.
The dogs looked a mean and hungry lot and my fears of the previous night vividly returned to me. There was no way out of the barn except by the door now being approached by the German farmer and his two dogs – so I decided to lay “doggo” behind the wood pile, hardly daring to breathe, let alone move.
After a few moments the farmer opened the door of the barn, came in and commenced to collect wood from the stack that I was hiding behind. The dogs either saw me or sniffed me out and they took an instant dislike to me and showed me two perfect sets of teeth that I could see at a glance required no dental work. The farmer also saw me and after he had recovered from his initial shock, he grabbed a large length of timber and held it over my head whilst he yelled his head off to the farmhouse. His yelling brought forth a number of men and women from the farmhouse as well as exciting the dogs, the only one that remained calm and awaiting to be collected was myself.
[page break]
3
I was then invited to join the welcoming committee in a walk down to the main street of the village. I did not seem to have any alternative, particularly when I noticed that the two dogs were still showing me their dentures and making funny noises in their throats.
By this time the whole village seemed to be escorting me down the main street, and each one seemed to think that they had the liberty to push and thump me.
I was searched a couple of times in the street and my foreign money plus a few pounds in silver plus my Rosary Beads, that I always carried were taken by a young man who may have been a German solider, home on leave.
On reaching what was obviously the local lock up and with an excited audience behind me I was greeted by a uniformed official who proceeded to question me in German and as I did not know a word of German his interrogation fell flat, much to his annoyance. It was at this point that an old man dropped into my hand a broken set of Rosary Beads that he had obligingly picked up from where they had been thrown. Those beads I still have today.
I was placed in a cell in the lockup. This cell was partly below ground level with a broken window in front of the bars. The window attracted the local youth of the village and I spent the next hour or so moving around the cell to avoid a bombardment of an assortment of rubbish and probably a considerable amount of abuse, if I had understood German.
From the village lockup I was taken by a member of the Gestapo, who chained me to a motor bike side car for my transfer to yet another cell in another village. The Gestapo agents’ English was not as good as he thought it was, and I was able to deflect his questions and annoy him immensely by saying I did not understand his English and that I did not speak German. The impasse finished by me being locked up in yet another cell.
In the morning two armed guards from the Luftwaffe arrived to take me to my next destination which happened to be Oberusal, an interrogation centre for all allied, shot down airmen. Oberusal was situated just outside Frankfurt On Main. En route we were joined by a R.A.F. officer who I thought may have been a ‘stooge’ trying to obtain information from me. He apparently thought the same of me as neither of us said a word to one another during the 2 – 3 hours we were together.
On reaching the outskirts of Frankfurt we were transferred to a train for our final part of the journey. Whilst we were on the train a few of the passengers took advantage of us to vent their anger on both of us, by belting us until our Luftwaffe guards decided the passengers had had enough fun.
The interrogation centre at Oberusal was a specialized establishment to closely interrogate allied airmen who had been shot down. It was at this centre that I realized that I was a P.O.W. and that all my bluff in answering and parrying questions would not be accepted in this establishment.
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4
The first 24 hours was spent in a heated cell in solitary confinement. The light in the cell never went out and one lost all sense of time. Meals arrived via a trap door in the bottom of the door once a day and a bucket in the corner of the cell was emptied during the night hours. A wire stretcher type bed with a straw palliase occupied most of the remainder of the cell.
Sometime, on the second or third day I was visited by a bogus Red Cross Officer, who indicated that he was very concerned that my next of kin in Australia should know that I was safe and well!
The top of the bogus Red Cross form showed name, no, rank, which is the only information that a P.O.W. should give to the enemy. This part of the form I completed but I upset my guest investigating officer when I refused to complete the rest of the form which showed squadron no., location and many other questions.
Sometime later I was paraded before a Luftwaffe Officer who took a similar line that the bogus Red Cross Officer initially took with me. Name, service No. and rank was my standard answer to all questions put to me, irrespective of the questions!
As a result of my determination not to get involved in a question and answer session or a friendly chat with an interrogator, my reward was 7 days in solitary confinement! I was soon to find that solitary confinement had a devastating effect upon those sentenced, an effect that you have got to experience to understand the drain that takes place on your mind and body.
The sentence also meant that I spent Christmas Day, 1943 in complete solitary confinement and no doubt the events of the past 4 -5 days were beginning to take their toll, in particular the shooting down of the aircraft and not knowing whether you were the sole survivor of the plane or if others had escaped and where they were. I had a few bad days fighting a mental and physical state of mind and body. Christmas Day, 1943 will always live in my memory.
Solitary confinement is soul destroying. Just how long a man could stand it, I do not know, but I am sure time would eventually break even the strongest man. Man must be, by nature, a social animal and require the companionship of his fellow man. Solitary confinement was the one punishment all P.O.W.’s dreaded and one which the Germans knew could break all men. Some sooner that [sic] others.
I was released from solitary confinement without further interrogation. I think they may have needed the accommodation for other guests, as there were a number of R.A.F. and American Airforce raids in the last week of December, 1943 and from the yelling and shouting that went on in the cell block, it appeared a new batch of recently “shot down” airmen had arrived for interrogation.
[page break]
5
From Oberusal I was moved by train to a destination unknown to the prisoners, but as it turned out to a prison camp in East Germany. The journey took several days with frequent stops for troop trains having the right of way and a number of air raids that took place at night.
Our final resting place was Stalag IVB, at Mulhberg on the Elbe River, an army camp that was taking the overflow from Luftwaffe 3 at Sagan. I was part of 1,000 R.A.F. airmen in a camp of approximately 20,000 representing almost every Nation of the world. My liberation came by the arrival of the Russian Army in April, 1945 – but that is another story.!!
[signature]
[page break]
1
[inserted] (6) [underlined] 30-11-01 [/underlined] [/inserted]
I thought I had fulfilled by obligation to Hardnbold when I wrote of my capture by the Germans, but I made one mistake by ending my story with the words – “But that is another story”. Now, a very persuasive [inserted] GRAND [/inserted] daughter of Bill Gilbert requests that other story.
On my return to England in May 1945, I wrote long letters to my mother and 2 brothers, Pat and Vin, who were, at that time, serving in the Army and Navy respectively.
It is from those letters that my mother had kept that I quote my thoughts on the events of 1943-1945. Consequently this narration may appear a little disjointed and I ask your indulgence for this fault.
As I related in Hardnbold last year – destiny found me in POW camp Stalag 1 VB Muhleberg – a small town approx midway between the large cities of Berlin – Leipzig – Dresden.
Stalag 1 VB was an Army camp under the control of Wehrmacht. It held approx 7,000 British Army personnel (including 40/50 A.I.F.), 1,000 R.A.F. Bomber Command crews which were the overflow from a Luftwaffe camp at Sagan. The rest of the prisoners, totalling another 15,000 or more, representing every nation in Europe and outside Europe.
The prison camp was in the form of a rectangle with a perimeter of approx 1 1/2 – 2 miles. Along each side of the 10 ft double barbed wire fence were the sentry boxes (on stilts). Each box was occupied by a sentry manning a machine gun. At night the perimeter was flood lit and from each sentry box there was a small searchlight on a swivel which used to sweep the camp.
The whole area was then divided into compounds by 10’, or more, high barbed wire fences. This meant, that if, trouble broke out within the camp, the Germans could control a disturbance by isolating a compound. It also meant that various nationalities could be separated.
In each compound were timber huts about 90 ft long able to house 220 men – but, on occasions, more than 400 men were forced to use these huts. In these huts we lived, cooked, talked and slept. Our beds consisted of 3 tier bunks reaching to the ceiling. In bad times we were obliged to sleep 2 to a bunk, or on a brick floor which used to freeze in winter.
The month of January 1945 I will never forget because of the shortage of food, fuel for cooking and heating and decent blankets. It was a wonder more prisoners did not die!
The food question was very serious. If it had not been for the Red Cross parcels – the food we received from the Germans would not have kept us alive in the latter part of the war.
Here I would like to quote verbatim from a letter I wrote to my mother in May 1945. “Since being back in England I have thought a great deal over the past 18 months as a prisoner. I saw men who had been living peaceful lives suddenly dragged from their families, thrown into a dirty camp and forced to be slave labourers on hardly enough food to live on. Men shot dead because they were hungry and stole potato peelings from rubbish cart.
[page break]
2 [inserted] (7) [/inserted]
When I first arrived in 1 VB it used to make me sick to see Russians grovelling in the dirt looking for something to eat – scraping out tins that had been thrown into a stinking pit, fighting and kicking one another over a piece of spud pudding. But, after a few weeks I became like the rest of the British prisoners – a silent spectator, knowing that the tables would be turned”.
Life went on in the camp. “Home for Christmas” was always the thought in everybody’s mind. But, as Christmas approached and there was no sigh of a breakthrough by the Allies, the morale of the camp declined until Spring started to appear and plans for escape were once again the constant source of discussion.
It was not until “D” Day that the morale of the entire camp reached the top. News that day was received on a secret radio built by an R.A.F. wireless operator hidden inside a straw broom. The prisoners knew of that event before the German guards.
With the good weather of Spring and Summer we had regular visits of 1,000 bomber raids on Berlin and Leipzig and we believed, once again, that we would be home for Christmas. But – that was not to be!
Most people will remember the uprising of Warsaw in Aug/Sept 1944. After a valiant effort the Polish Underground Forces were beaten by the German Army of occupation and the remnants of the Polish Underground were transported to Germany as slave labour.
Suddenly, and without notice, one compound of the camp was cleared in great haste, and the inhabitants had to double up with prisoners in another compound.
We then witnessed the result of the tragic saga of the Warsaw uprising when approx 1,000 Polish women with 400/500 young children between 5-10 years of age were pushed into the empty compound.
The Polish members of the R.A.F, who were prisoners with us, were very upset and spent long hours comforting the women from a distance through the barbed wire.
The English speaking prisoners immediately set up their own Red Cross fund and contributed (as generously as they could) in food, second hand clothing and even toys some of them had made.
The women’s stay in Stalag 1 VB was not long – their destiny was slave labour in the factories of the industrial Ruhr which were the target areas for Bomber Command and the American heavy bombers.
The war dragged on and it was not until February 11th 1945, that the R.A.F. and American Airforces virtually wiped out Dresden and, as a result, destroyed a rail centre to the Russian front, that we were seeing the beginning of the end to the War on the Eastern front.
However, it was not until the morning of April 23rd 1945, that we saw that the German guards had disappeared from their posts and that we were the owners of the camp.
[page break]
3 [inserted] (8) [/inserted]
Everybody seemed to be overwrought with emotion and were unable to express their thoughts except to shout, yell, slap one another on the back and hug one another.
Being an Army camp, it was not long before some sort of control was established – all food stocks were commandeered and the cook house geared to supply 1 meal a day. If it had been left to the Aircrews of the RAF and RAAF, I think we would still be there!!
It was just as well that this was organised, as Marshall Konev, the Russian Commander, informed us that after the meagre supply of food on hand ran out – we were on our own!!
This led to thousands of prisoners farming out over the country side like a plague of locusts into semi destroyed villages – looting food wherever they could find it. It was that or starve to death!!
Unfortunately, the Russian soldiers also had the same idea and there were numerous clashes which the Russians always won, as they had the gun!
The average Russian soldier – particularly those on horseback (cosacks) – was a mobile arsenal. He usually had a number of captured machine pistols or luger revolvers, as well as his own rifle. He carried his rations across his horse’s neck or on his back. They seemed to display a childlike desire for watches and jewellery and many a POW who still happened to own such valuables, handed them over as soon as the Ruski reached for one of his many pieces of armament. As a general rule this was as close as most POW’s got to Anglo-Russian fraternization.
As the food ran out in one area the prisoners were forced to forage further a field, [sic] thus running into Russian patrols or S.S. forces making a last ditch stand.
On one occasion a number of us entered a village looking for food and we found that most civilian men had been hanged on light posts and the women were huddled in the cellars of their homes in fear of their lives after having been repeatedly raped by the Russians. That was when we decided, rather than wait for the war to end, we would make a break through the front to the American lines. As it happened it had another 7 days to run.
Walking at night and hiding and sleeping during the day, we reached a town named Reisa in a couple of days. We commandeered a flat which had obviously belonged to a Nazi official as we found his personal belongings and many S.S. photos and momentoes. [sic]
We were in Reisa on V.E. Day (May 7th 1945) and were awakened by a large calibre gun being fired, numerous hand grenades exploding and what was obviously a tank rumbling down the street firing a machine gun.
Not a very pleasant place for 5 peace loving members of the RAF and RAAF to find themselves in so early in the morning. This was the way the Russians celebrated the end of the war in Reisa, East Germany and we were not anxious to join them.
[page break]
4 [inserted] (9) [/inserted]
We decided to abandon Reisa and make our way to Wurzen – a small town on the Mulda River, which we knew we had to cross. To get to the Americans. On our arrival at Wurzen we found all bridges had been destroyed. This was a great blow to us – to have come so far and risk everything to escape the Russians. At this time we believed the Russians were still holding the Allied prisoners in Stalag 1 VB and that was one place we did not want to go back to!
Whilst we were discussing our position and what we would do next, we spotted an American convoy approaching the bridge. We all decided, at once, to climb on the rail bridge and show ourselves to the Americans and hope for the best. About 100 metres behind – a squad of Russians followed us onto the bridge.
In a moment it seemed that the 3rd World War was about to break out, with us 5 airmen being the meat in the sandwich! Lucky for us the Americans who were very much a fighting unit from their appearance and all the equipment they carried, had a Russian interpreter with them and after a lengthy and loud argument between the “Allies”, we were allowed over the prefabricated bridge.
The American Army took us to their base in Leipzig where we were, unfortunately, given a large meal, and we paid the consequence of eating too much after our meagre meals during the last few months.
Leipzig was a city in ruins – nothing more than a pile of rubble. I remember clearly sitting on the top of lamp posts that protruded through the rubble from buildings on each side of the main street that had collapsed. I now know what effect the raids of Bomber Command and the American Airforce had upon the cities of Germany. It was quite different from the view I imagined it to be from 5 miles up in the sky in the middle of the night.
Our stay in Leipzig was short. The Americans transported us to Halle – another city that lay in complete ruin as a result of Bomber Command. We passed a “Focke Wulf” factory on the way into Halle. It lay in ruins with hundreds of bomb craters surrounding it.
The American Airforce flew us from Halle to Brussels. It was the first time any of us had flown over Germany in daylight – but, more to the point, we flew without the fear of night fighters or enemy flak.
We disembarked at Brussels and lay in the long grass in the sunshine beside the runway until Bomber Command Lancasters and Halifaxes landed and lifted us back to England.
It was an amazing feeling to climb back into those wonderful aircraft that each of us had parachuted out of under desperate circumstances in the dark sky somewhere over Germany many, many months ago.
Finally, the friendly coast of England that each of us longed to see after each operation suddenly appeared to us. It was very hard to speak or look at one another without having a lump in the throat or a rear in the eye.
[page break]
5 [inserted] (10) [/inserted]
It was not so much that we had ultimately survived, but, I think each of us was thinking of those members of our crews we were leaving in Germany or somewhere on the continent in some cases in unmarked graves and more distressfully those thousands that had no known grave.
I was to learn many years later, when I returned to England for the dedication of a monument to the deceased of the RAAF Squadron 466 that 484 of my comrades had paid the supreme sacrifice over Europe.
Those prisoners that left it too late to make the break from the Russians and had trusted our “glorious allies” found themselves, once again, prisoners but this time under a different armed guard. It would appear that the Russians wanted to make some sort of deal with the Americans, the result being the repatriation of prisoners in Stalag 1 VB did not take place until some weeks after I had returned to England.
R.A.A.F. H.Q. in London were beginning to get a little worried over missing members that had not turned up in England and I had a visit from RAAF H.Q. whilst I was in hospital enquiring the whereabouts of missing RAAF members known to have been in Stalag 1 VB. As far as I know all RAAF personnel eventually returned to England safe, if not sound.
My thanks to Bill Gilbert for asking me to complete my story. It has been a privilege and honour for me to oblige the 57/60th Batt. Association.
I trust I have been worthy of the honour.
Jim Cahir.
466 Squadron
[signature]
Dublin Core
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Title
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Memoirs of Jim Cahir
Description
An account of the resource
Memoirs of Jim Cahir who served with 466 Squadron RAAF. He writes about being shot down near Frankfurt on Main on the night of 20/21 December 1943 and subsequently being captured and imprisoned in Stalag IVB in Muhleberg. He stayed there until the end of the war when he was repatriated to England.
Creator
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Jim Cahir
Format
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Ten typewritten sheets
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BCahirFSCahirFSv1
Coverage
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Royal Australian Air Force
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Leipzig
Belgium--Brussels
Germany--Halle an der Saale
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Mühlberg (Bad Liebenwerda)
Poland--Żagań
Germany
Poland
Belgium
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-12-20
1943-12-21
466 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
Dulag Luft
faith
fear
forced labour
Halifax
heirloom
Ju 88
Lancaster
memorial
prisoner of war
RAF Driffield
RAF Leconfield
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/411/7317/PHattersleyCR1613.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Matchbox
Description
An account of the resource
A German matchbox containing unused matches.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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One wooden box with matches
Language
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deu
Type
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Physical object
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PHattersleyCR1613
heirloom
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/380/7029/MHattersleyCR40699-160506-180002.2.jpg
e6bccaf120f885515851051536dba73e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/380/7029/MHattersleyCR40699-160506-180001-Envelope containing lock of hair.2.jpg
a6fcfe1287e84f234af8fb25b4cfe65e
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Title
A name given to the resource
Hattersley, Peter
Peter Hattersley
C R Hattersley
Charles Raymond Hattersley
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The collection concerns Wing Commander Charles Raymond Hattersley DFC (1914-1948, 800429, 40699 Royal Air Force). Peter Hattersley served in the Royal Engineers between 1930 and 1935 but enlisted in the RAF in 1936. He trained as a pilot and flew with 106, 44 and 199 Squadrons. He completed 32 operations with 44 Squadron but had to force land his Wellington in France on his first operation with 199 Squadron in December 1942. He became a prisoner of war. He married Miss Kathleen Hattersley nee Croft after the war. The collection contains his logbook, notebooks, service material, his decorations and items of memorabilia in a tin box and 39 photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Charles William Hattersley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
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2016-05-06
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hattersley, CR
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lock of hair
Description
An account of the resource
Lock of blonde hair in an envelope. The envelope is addressed to '201, Anerley Road, Anerley' and has a number 416 in the bottom left corner.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One lock of hair
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Physical object
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MHattersleyCR40699-160506-180002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
heirloom
love and romance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/501/22428/ECurnockRMIrvinLL451126.2.jpg
34829fdf608d767f8df23cafc8c972e8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/501/22428/ECurnockRMIrvinLL470123.2.jpg
738a1f35a34897e293429bb463884b7b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Curnock, Richard
Richard Murdock Curnock
R M Curnock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Curnock, RM
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
92 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Richard Curnock (1924, 1915605 Royal Air Force), his log book, letters, photographs and prisoner of war magazines. He flew operations with 425 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Richard Curnock and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
1815605 F/Sgt Curnock R.M.
No 2 Sgts Mess
R.A.F. Station
Melksham
Wilts.
26/11/45
Dear Sir,
It has just occurred to me to write and ask for information as to the position of supplies of Caterpillar Pins.
Being now six months since returning to England I would like to have a pin as the majority of my friends have theirs already.
I remain.
Yours,
A.M. Curnock
[page break]
‘SunnyCroft’
59, Minehead St.
Leicester
23/1/47
Dear Sir,
Having now discovered the letter which enclosed my Gil Caterpillar, I am able to write and ask if one in gold could be purchased through the Club, I believe the price is 30s 3d which I am willing to pay.
Also I wish to thank you for the presented one, which has been admired by all, and with which I will never part.
Yours sincerely,
R M Curnock ex Sgt.
Yours, R. M. Curnock
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letters to Caterpillar Club form Dick Curnock
Description
An account of the resource
The first letter asks for his Caterpillar club pin and is dated 26/11/45. The second letter asks to purchase a gold pin, and is dated 23/1/47.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dick Curnock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two photocoppied handwritten letters
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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ECurnockRMIrvinLL451126,
ECurnockRMIrvinLL470123
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Leicester
England--Leicestershire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-11-26
1947-01-23
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-11-26
1947-01-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
aircrew
Caterpillar Club
heirloom
RAF Melksham
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1281/19985/EValentineUMValentineJRM421022-0001.2.jpg
883284bb1baaa0ecb29f7733c7996a25
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1281/19985/EValentineUMValentineJRM421022-0002.2.jpg
c852cc0a2f1034e6a9fac624e2886cd4
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Valentine, John
John Ross Mckenzie Valentine
J R M Valentine
Description
An account of the resource
674 Items. Collection concerns navigator Warrant Officer J R McKenzie Valentine (1251404 Royal Air Force). The collection contains over 600 letters between JRM Valentine and his wife Ursula. It also contains his log book, family/official documents, a book of violin music studies and other correspondence. Sub-collections contain family photographs, prisoner of war photographs and a scrapbook of newspaper cuttings of events from 1942 to 1945.
He joined 49 Squadron in April 1942 and flew 10 operations on Hampdens. The squadron converted to Manchester in May when he completed two further operations. His aircraft was shot down on the Thousand Bomber raid of 30/31 May 1942. Five crew, including him bailed out successfully and became prisoners of war. The pilot and one air gunner were killed when the aircraft rolled over and crashed.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frances Zagni and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Valentine, JRM
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
To Sergeant John R.M. Valentine,
British Prisoner of War No. 431,
Stalag Luft III, Germany
[inserted] 31 [/inserted]
From Mrs. J.R.M. Valentine,
Lido, Tenterden Grove,
Hendon, London, N.W. 4.
October 22nd 1942.
[inserted] R & A 11/71/4 [indecipherable figure] [/inserted]
My darling Johnnie,
Yesterday I received a letter of yours dated 9.9.42 but with the number deleted by the censor. You will see I have removed my numbering too, I don’t want letters to get held up because of that. [inserted] you could the same [/inserted] There was other heavy censoring too, mostly your remarks about food, I gathered. Oh Johnnie, my dearest, how I wish I could do something more for you and the others! I have sent off a couple of letters today, which may or may not have effect, one to the wife of the British ambassador in Turkey and one to an American lady in the Portuguese Red Cross and I do hope they will respond. Uncle Tom from South Africa wrote today saying he had been trying to send to you from there but that only close relations can do so. I’m afraid it is the same with Mother. However, perhaps some of those we have already contacted will do something tangible. I am so glad old Krankenberger wrote to you, I have just rung up Herbert over here and told him, and he too was very pleased. I hope they parcel gets through too.
I was terribly touched by your description of how and where you practise your violin. When I think of the golden opportunities which so many of us have and are too lazy to take, and then by contrast of what a courageous spirit can do in adversity, it really makes me ashamed. Darling, I do love you so much, and a good many things which I always told you about your own character, and which you flatly denied, are now being proved to be true. Don’t let the barbed-wire fever get the boys down, and when their tempers get a bit frayed, remind them that they stand as a witness for us over there, to show what the men of the United Nations are made of.
I have not done anything at all thrilling since last I wrote. Frances and I went to tea with Mrs. Boyd again yesterday, and tomorrow two of her boy friends are coming to tea here, viz, David Simmonds and Richard Chapman – bringing their mothers, of course. Richard is considerably older, being nearly 4, but he has played with Frances often at Mrs. Boyd’s and they seem to get on quite well. His mother is quite a nice woman, lives in Mulberry Close, but she is not possessed of a great deal of spunk.
I had a letter today from Floyd senior, enclosing a photo of his son. He certainly was quite a nice-looking fellow, I do feel so sorry for his parents. Perhaps they had just received your letter and that reminded them to send on the photo.
You remember that I had some bother getting you a copy of “Agriculture”, which after all you now say you can borrow over there. However, not knowing that I wrote to heaps of places to try to get one, and then when the new edition was published, bought one for you through
[page break]
Foyles. Soon after other shops where I had enquired began to flock round with copies they wanted to sell me, and today I had a nasty shock in the shape of a letter from the Red Cross Educational Books section, where I had first of all enquired, telling me they despatched a copy to you on Sept. 21st, also Watson’s “Farming Year”, and asking me kindly to contribute towards the cost! I suppose I shall have to send them something, specially as it is such a good cause, but anyway I hope you do eventually receive at least one copy. To crown it, the local library wrote today saying they had reserved a copy for me there, which I asked for sometime in the summer!
Frances gets practically no “clear” singing practice, but she simply loves to be sung to. Last night we had a pitched battle over tea; she unfortunately spotted her chocolate biscuit which I generally keep hidden till she has eaten a fair amount of bread, and mulishly refused to eat anything else but that. I said no, she must eat at least one token piece of bread but she utterly refused (she takes after you in mulishness) and worked herself into an absolute fury. I didn’t like her to get so worked up just before bed, so I took her on to my knee and sang to her, whereupon she quieted down at once, and when I was getting near the end of my repertoire she peacefully took the offending piece of bread and butter and ate it and was thereupon rewarded with the chocolate biscuit; which was quite a satisfactory compromise. I really feel I mustn’t give in to her, even over little things like that, or there will be no holding her, because she is full of devilment and intelligence. I had a letter from Mother today saying she had been choosing skins for a white lamb-skin coat for Frances! Won’t she be smart? If the coat actually materialises in this country, it will be a family heirloom, to be handed down to our grandchildren! There is still no definite news about my people’s return, but Mother seems to take it rather for granted. Just now Frances is wearing a smart outfit in grey and green – I have made a little grey flannel skirt, pleated for and aft, out of an odd bit from the rag-bag, and knitted a jumper, also out of scraps, in grey and emerald green – she looks sweet in it.
The two chestnut trees opposite the house are a glorious shade of gold now, and it is beautiful to walk up the Grove, as we did this afternoon collecting for the savings group, rustling through the oak and beech and chestnut leaves. Quite a lot of holly berries are ripe, and the pyracanthus [sic] in front of the house is a lovely mass of orange. I have been thinking of this time last year, when you came home so often, and the year before, when you had just gone away, and the year before that, when our love for each other was just awaking – it has certainly lit a fire which will light us and warm us for the rest of our lives. Sometimes I try to think forward to this time next year – but that is impossible, one can only hope and pray.
Everybody you knew round here remembers you and asks after you and sends you their best wishes – even Mrs. MacEwen in the newspaper shop. And I, of course, never cease from thinking of you and longing for you. Last night when I tucked Frances up, she said “Bye-bye, Daddy dear! “
With all my love for always,
Ursula.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to prisoner of war John Valentine from his wife Ursula
Description
An account of the resource
Comments on problems with censorship of letters and tells of her attempts to get food parcels from foreign countries. Mentions she was touched by descriptions of him learning violin. Catches up with family and friends news and her attempts to find agriculture text books. Concludes with news of daughter and local activities.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-10-22
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Christian
Format
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Two page typewritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EValentineUMValentineJRM421022
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Poland
Poland--Żagań
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-10-22
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ursula Valentine
heirloom
love and romance
prisoner of war
Stalag Luft 3
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/759/17802/MCruickshankG629128-150428-240006.1.jpg
0cbcdbd27d8811fb4b39dac4f71fd21f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cruickshank, Gordon
G Cruickshank
Description
An account of the resource
76 items. Concerns the life and wartime career of Flight Lieutenant Gordon Cruickshank DFM who joined the Royal Air Force in 1938. After training as an air gunner he flew 52 operations on Manchester and Lancaster with 50, 560 and 44 Squadrons. Collection consists of a 1956 memoir with original photographs donated separately, a memoir of his life on squadron from December 1941, his logbooks. a further notebook with memoir, playing cards annotated with his operations, official documents, lucky mascots, medals and badges, dog tags, memorabilia, crew procedures, as well as photographs of aircraft, targets and people.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Linda Hinman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cruickshank, G
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Key ring with keepsakes
Description
An account of the resource
Key ring with keepsakes/pendants:
- a small humanoid figurine,
- an anchor with a cable wrapped around it,
- a blue enamelled 3-leafed clover,
- a small black wooden pig,
- a very small metal book with photographic pages of Lincoln cathedral.
Additional information about this item was kindly provided by the donor.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
key ring and keepsakes/pendants
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Physical object
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MCruickshankG629128-150428-240006
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
heirloom
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1396/28444/PHookKG18010009.1.jpg
335bb36472b76ee700786c77ef3d1db0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1396/28444/PHookKG18010010.1.jpg
5ecd709f9dd38a4a1a399f1cc9fb5ec4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1396/28444/PHookKG18010011.1.jpg
e582929893d7a176f2849f6a7334922d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1396/28444/PHookKG18010012.1.jpg
d7fad1b6877dc42e21a378836f8d4694
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hook, Ken
Kenneth Gordon Hook
K G Hook
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hook, KG
Description
An account of the resource
53 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Kenneth Hook DFM (b. 1923, 1335989, 195765 Royal Air Force) and contains his log books, documents, photographs, objects and correspondence. He flew operations as an air gunner with 75 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Iain Hook and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ken Hook's medal box
Description
An account of the resource
Wooden box, engraved on the lid with his service details, large enough to contain his medals, his aircrew whistle, identity discs, and aircraft fragments.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Wooden case
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Physical object
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PHookKG18010009, PHookKG18010010, PHookKG18010011, PHookKG18010012
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Distinguished Flying Medal
heirloom
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16343/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020001.2.jpg
acc9e7941b2264023c5a20b934585759
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16343/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020002.2.jpg
94e4d570ab9a90afd263827631d2b469
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16343/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020003.2.jpg
8b9a038e31af1f1d4cf66bd6dd91c8b2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16343/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020004.2.jpg
384396a00774e0cb0159a6d60b8b685c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16343/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020005.2.jpg
c85fb07e6600ca7c16b27d40b966b24a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Neale, Ted
E T H Neale
Description
An account of the resource
123 items. The collection concerns Edward Thomas Henry Neale (b. 1922, 1395951 Royal Air Force) who served as a navigator with 37 Squadron in North Africa, the Middle East and Italy. The collection contains his training notebooks from South Africa as well as propaganda leaflets dropped by the allies in the Mediterranean theatre.
The collection also contains a photograph album, navigation logs and target photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alison Neale and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Neale, ETH
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MAJOR DFC. M.i.D. TEL No 2240 MARBLE HALL
SERVICE No 203571V. RANK AT TIME Lt
DATE OF JUMP 10-5-44 37 SQN. WELLINGTON
OTHER CREW MEMBERS
Lt. T. HENDERSON (SAAF) NAV ESCAPED
Sgt NORRIS B/A POW
“ SCULLY W/OP POW
F/O J.A. MCQUEEN A/G POW.
MISSION LEGHORN. LOCATION OF INCIDENT
[underlined] ANCONA [/underlined]
LANDED NEAR NERETO. TORTORETTO
[underlined] Sth OF ANCONA [/underlined]
INJURIES SUSTAINED. KNEE & BACK STRAINS
OTHERWISE O.K.
GENERAL ACCOUNT. ESCAPE.
STARBOARD ENGINE ON FIRE, 65 miles to go to cross front line. then south of PESCARA ON ADRIATIC COAST & ROME ON MEDSIDE, also running out of fuel. Decided to bale [sic] out. all landed safely (this I heard months later) except that SCULLY broke a leg. Navigator managed to esape [sic] as front line moved up, rest of crew caught & end up in STALAG LUFT [circled 3]. I landed among peasants, who although frightened of harbouring me, fed me as best they could (MARIA STAFFILANI) THEY were fearful
[page break]
[circled 2]. of the Germans & the consequences of being caught helping me. Stay low for a couple of weeks & met up with an English army corporal who was captured at Tobruk. (I cannot recall his name). We contacted some Italians & bought a rowing boat for cash plus (“YOUR” parachute. Before parting with the chute I cut out 2 panels which I wrapped round my body under my shirt. These together with the rip cord ladle are still in my possession (and treasured).
Having acquired the boat we were going to row 65 miles. After 4 miles we had to make for shore, we were making water.
We landed at GUILIANOVA where we eventually contacted the so called patriots, we stayed in town with the local fisherman & MAYOR ([indecipherable word]) [indecipherable letters] ATTILLIO BATTISTELLI. Whilst then we heard that Rome had fallen on JUNE 4 & D Day had
[page break]
[circled 3] started on June 6.
Whilst there I met an Italian who owned a small fishing vessel. he said that he intended sailing south. GUILIANOVA being riddled with Germans was a place I wanted to get out of, so talked the Italian into taking me with him. When it was time to depart I was saddled with 3 AUSTRIAN Teenage conscripts who [deleted] wanted to desert [/deleted] [inserted] had [/inserted] deserted from the German Army, and handed their equipment to the PATRIOTS.
We wended our way down through the lines, lazing on the beaches, sunbathing etc. we sailed down & eventually landed at ORTONA south of PESCARA. (2 weeks after baling out) After a long tedious affair with
[page break]
[circled 4] the carabinieri we met a British Transport officer & boarded a cattle truck to BARI from there by train to NAPLES (3 B.P.D). IN NAPLES proceeded to the P. O W camp outside the city & handed over the 3 Austrian Kids. I was assured they would be well treated.
After more hassle I returned to 37 sqdn at Foggia & completed a tour of 34 trips.
My wife’s pride & joy (your golden little [indecipherable word]) is still in her possession
[page break]
[underlined] 5 [/underlined]
F.A. NORRIS
TIGNE COTTAGE
LYBSTER
CAITHNESS SCOTLAND
H.V. SCULLY.
2. CHELWOOD AVE
BROADGREEN
LIVERPOOL 16
LANCASHIRE.
[deleted] T [/deleted] J.A. McQUEEN
5378 STALAG LUTL 3
BELARIA GERMANY
T. HENDERSON
MOOIRNER
NATAL 3300
R of. S.A.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Italian war memories
Description
An account of the resource
Ted Neale describes the aircrew and circumstances leading to their baling out near Nereto, Tortoreto, Italy. Some of the crew were captured, but Ted was sheltered by local people. He met up with an English army corporal and travelled by boat to Giulianova. From here, now with three Austrian teenage deserters, they went by boat to Ortona, eventually ended up at Naples where he returned to his squadron at Foggia.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ted Neale
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Five handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020001,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020002,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020003,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020004,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0020005
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
South African Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Giulianova
Italy--Ortona
Italy--Naples
Italy--Foggia
Italy--Tortoreto
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-05-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
37 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
evading
fear
heirloom
prisoner of war
Stalag Luft 3
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/746/10747/AColemanTE170914.2.mp3
98c259c76f1de8123bd63c1d8a07a448
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Coleman, Thea
Theadora Erna Coleman
T E Coleman
Theadore Tielrooy
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Theadora Coleman (b. 1933) and a memoir. She grew up in The Hague and was a recipient of Operation Manna.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Coleman, TE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TC: To be awkward.
CB: That’s ok.
TC: Because I’m going to start with that one.
CB: Ok. That’s fine.
TC: I’ve already —
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 14th of September 2017 and I’m in Rugby with Thea Coleman. And she was in Holland during the war because she’s Dutch and she’s going to tell us her story. So, what are your earliest recollections of life, Thea?
TC: Very very happy childhood with a fantastic family around me. And we were so close it was really super. I had already a brother and a sister. They were already born. One was born in ’22 and the other in ’24. So they were quite a bit older. So that was for me rather nice. But to them I was a pest [laughs] you know. I pinched their roller skates and their things but when I was a bit older. But we had a very happy family. Yeah.
CB: And what did your father do?
TC: He was an accountant. Eventually.
CB: And where did you live? Where did the family live?
TC: In the Hague.
CB: Yes. Ok. And what sort of house was that?
TC: Well, first of all there was this house and then before long when I was a bit older, about four maybe we moved to the place that I’ve just shown you here with the beautiful view.
CB: That was on the outskirts was it?
TC: That was on the edge. Well, it was overlooking the park. As far as you could see it was a park and eventually when Rotterdam was bombed we could see it burn at the horizon. So, yeah. It was quite, quite a place.
CB: So moving house meant moving school, did it?
TC: Well, I didn’t go to school before.
CB: At all.
TC: No. Because I had to go from this place. Find school. Now and again I got a lift on a bike because it was quite a way to walk but for the rest that was.
CB: And you enjoyed your schooldays.
TC: Yes. I think I, from what I can remember but there was so much going around or going on around me that, well school was just taken as a matter of whatever.
CB: So, you were born in 1933.
TC: Yeah.
CB: The war started in 1939.
TC: ’40 in Holland.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
TC: That was, that has a story actually.
CB: Ok.
TC: That is very interesting because that is, if I may I would like to start with the story about a Peace Palace that was Alexander the 2nd’s, Czar Alexander. He was so fed up with all the money waste on the wars that took place in the beginning of the century that he wanted to do something about it and had the idea of building a palace. A Peace Palace. And Carnegie, this started I think in 1907. His idea. And Carnegie said, ‘Right. I’ll, I’ll finance it.’ He chose Holland because Holland was a peaceful country. And the, all the countries contributed something towards it. Like Britain contributed the gardens. Switzerland. Italy, I think it was the marble. And so every country got together with bits and pieces. Then eventually then it was opened exactly the date it says there. What was it? The —
Other: Here you are.
TC: Yeah. August the 28th 1913 the Palace was opened. International Court of Justice. Everything was in there. And what happens? Within a year we had the Second World War. Wasn’t that ironic? So, this is really not a very good start for the peace. But nevertheless, then let me get my story back.
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo.
TC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
TC: Now, then we get in 1933 we get Hitler. So that is, he was very war minded and of course in those days you had better weapons. There were aircraft and what have you. So then there was war coming up on, in 1940. But Holland, and I forgot to just mention that before during the First World War Holland was neutral. And they didn’t want anything to do with the war. So the second time Holland said no. We want to be neutral again. Not in the German’s point of view because they said that they wanted Holland to capitulate and Holland refused. So that went on and on and on. And then you get here fortunately later on document of my sister where she describes the time between the two wars. How socially it was hard work although Holland was, had been neutral they had a difficult time of making ends meet. There were no social services or anything like that. So what we had that is very important. We had to have a lodger. And this lodger eventually appeared to be Nazi minded. Because that was another thing that was happening all around. You see the Dutch were a bit afraid from, you know, what is Hitler up to? And we better be on the winning side than on the losing side. So, therefore this fellow who happened to be a lodger that was Nazi minded also we had neighbours who were. It was called NSP. You know. National Socialists. So we were already from knee high told, ‘Keep your mouth shut. Don’t say anything and be very very careful. And be aware. Never tell them anything.’ Because you couldn’t trust them. So that was the situation that happened in the beginning of 1940 when Germany said, ‘Right. We want you to capitulate.’ And the Dutch said no. So what they did was they threatened with bombing Rotterdam. And they flattened Rotterdam, you know. Pretty severely. You can see here [pause] you see. And then the Germans said, ‘Ok. We’ll give you two hours. You capitulate or else all the other cities in Holland will go like this.’ So they were, unfortunately they were blackmailed and they had to capitulate. There was no way out. So that was a rather a shame because in the meantime they were also very busy. You know, like we had them on the coast a beautiful pier where you could visit. That was an obstacle. So that had to go. They built bunkers. Well, they were absolutely amazing you know. And then on also outside. No. There’s not a picture here. Where they had mines. Oh, it was so, although we always went lovely you know to the beaches and we had the super youth it was all gone for a burton because it was all mined. And as I say there was Rotterdam was here. We could see it burn. This was rather nice because this is a park where kids could have a plot of land where they could grow vegetables. It was rather nice. But as I say, but oh gosh and that was really my first reaction. My first memory. Looking out on the balcony and then these aircrafts. German aircrafts. Because it was still not officially capitulated. Capitulated. They would dive bomb and drop parachutes. It was really a frightening situation where people were getting frightened to such an extent that some thought that we had better be on their side. Which was not very favourable was it? So, there you are. Then, as I say I had Willie’s memories how she then describes. It’s in Dutch unfortunately. I think I will go and translate it. Where she describes the situation of fear. Short of money. You didn’t really know what was going to happen. You saw all these aircrafts. So that was really physically the frightening bit but also as fun because if there was a bomb thrown then the windows would shatter. So we taped them with Sellotape or whatever and it was quite an exercise because it was artistic. You know, to try and preserve the windows that you wouldn’t sit in the cold. Yeah. Now, let me just —
CB: What you might call practical artistic solutions.
TC: That was definitely it. Yeah.
CB: We’ll pause for a moment.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok. Fire away.
TC: Hitler.
CB: The invasion. Yeah.
TC: Yeah. Hitler, in ’33 he was very war minded. And then you get the invasion in 1940. Incidents with mines. Complaints. Spies. And then in April, oh God the fear. You know. You were so scared. And then on the 10th of May Germany attacked Rotterdam. That was on the 10th of May. Without a warning. Nobody knew about it. And then they were given two hours to give in but the problem was when they sent the letter they didn’t just accept it. They said, ‘Hey, hang on. Who wrote this letter? Where does come from?’ So that was delay. And although the two hours were given they didn’t give the two hours. They took less to just flatten Rotterdam completely. Yeah. So, Rotterdam destroyed and Holland had to capitulate. In other words, other words the other cities would have the same fate. Not very nice. So, life goes on. My brother goes to school. He is ten years older than I am so he had a job given when he was about seventeen eighteen. And then of course they said, the Germans said, ‘Hang on. We want you in the army.’ So he had to be signed up. So he did go to have the interview and he came back in a uniform. One of these little [unclear] things with a little tassel I thought was wonderful. And then of course he would be called up and go to Germany which of course was the last thing he wanted. And that petrified my mother. Willie, she was two years younger than he was. She studied hard at school, you know. She went to the Grammar School and eventually she got a job at the factory that belonged to the Jews but then was taken over by the Germans and, so she worked there as a secretary which was useful. Not Germans because later on as the war goes on my father finds there a place to hide. So that was useful. My brother meantime, well, you know he had his uniform and he was called up. We took him to the tram and he said goodbye. My mother cried her eyes out and off he went. And nobody knew he didn’t go. He went into hiding. Nobody knew except my father and Willie. Willie knew as well. I didn’t. So later on, during as time goes on they said, ‘Well, we have a surprise for you,’ and I saw him [laughs] He was hiding not so very far from where I, where I then was living. Yeah. So that was — I’m sorry. I’m getting a little bit of a muddled story I reckon.
CB: That’s alright.
TC: Can you select?
CB: We will stop just a mo.
TC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: What was your brother doing do you think? Or do you remember? When he was in hiding.
TC: I can’t remember. He had, he was with a family with two other chaps of his age. And maybe they did some farming or whatever. But I know that at one stage the house was encircled by Germans and he escaped through a toilet window. Fortunately there was a cornfield so he disappeared in the corn field. But the two other chaps they were arrested. Whether they survived I don’t know. You see that was another thing that you had to get used to. Sometimes you would go on a walk. One day we went on a walk near the prison and suddenly we were stopped and five young chaps came out. And they were executed. And we had to watch it. I mean those sort of things is unimaginable. What you had to as a kid had to absorb really.
CB: This is an important point. And could you just describe how that happened? So, you were stopped. Then what? How did they do this execution?
TC: They just set them against the wall and shot them. And we had to watch. We had to stand there and watch. There was no way of hiding or running away. No. Otherwise you would be the next.
CB: So after they shot them then what happened?
TC: I don’t know whether I can remember that one because you were so absolutely numbed by the occasion. That they were just picked up and taken inside.
CB: And when you got home what did you do?
TC: Cry. And try to forget. And my parents were very good because they were trying to, you know distract your attention and, with other things. Play a game or whatever. Yeah. And, and this was all physical. This had nothing to do with food yet. Because there was another thing. The Dutch are very very careful because they were always thinking well, you never know. You never know. So they started to preserve food. Bottle it and what have you. We were always trying to save the food for, for whenever. And the same with clothing and so on. And even in the, from the government point of view you know they were trying to store. It was really store. And then of course the Germans said you are not allowed to store any more. So it had to be done secretly. So, you know then this ideal if you need it that it is there. But we had to hide so you know we lost all the stuff that we had preserved. Somebody else ate it [laughs] Yeah. So, I don’t know.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
TC: Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
TC: Do you want food or what?
CB: Yeah. No. We’ll just carry on more with the living at the time.
TC: Ok.
CB: Once you —
[recording paused]
TC: When this particularly pro-Nazi lodger left the house was open for people come and go. So we always had visitors. The beauty of it was that people didn’t think it was unusual that we had lodgers and that was a fantastic cover. So now, this particular time we are getting Willie she has been very busy getting, because we have rations to supply these people with rations. To find accommodation for them or you know really generally looking after them and finding places for them to stay. And so we were virtually called a through house. Well, then also people above us, you know, going up the stairs. The flat above they, he was a policeman and they also got involved. So it was our family and those two and we had just coming and goings. Comings and goings. And then one day we got a family with three boys. One was about my age. One was my brother’s age. Three boys. They were Jews. Because then suddenly the whole war started to change because it became anti-Jew. And that was one of the worst decisions that ever could have made. Been made. Anyway, Willie was very very busy with, you know trying to find them. Anyway, this particular couple came with their three boys. Fred, the eldest, was my age. He stayed with us permanently. The middle brother he went to my aunt. And the youngest went to my grandfather. Unfortunately, and Willie was always on the, on her bike and finding things and she has an awful lot of information. And one day she heard that the younger boy, Fritz with my grandfather that the Germans were after him or whatever. You know, they, they had the German attention was on that house. So Willie went to my grandfather and said get him in to cloister. He said, ‘Ok. Tomorrow.’ But that was too late because at lunchtime this four year old, he was kidnapped out of my grandfather’s garden. Taken to Auschwitz. Never came back. So you can imagine that was what my grandfather must have felt. Absolutely horrendous. So, yeah. That, that went on and as we say the other boys, you know. That is Fred. He is with us. He went on a holiday in a cow’s stables. The cows were outside and we got fresh straw. So that was rather quiet and, and a treat. And then here somewhere we have [pause] Oh, there’s my father with, I’ve got that there. His false passport. Oh, and here’s Wim. My brother. We didn’t know and I was told, ‘You’re going to see a visitor today.’ Somehow. And that was him. The first time after all those years that I actually met him when he was hiding there. Then he told the story of Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves. I can still remember that one. And this, I have to go to a Children’s Home. This is coming later. First, see if I can find the boys. Sorry about that [pause – pages turning] There’s Wim. Oh, yeah. Here we are. Here is the middle boy on the lap of a German. Fancy that. That was, but that is again. I hope you stay another week.
CB: It’s interesting that these pictures were taken in the war.
TC: Yeah.
CB: So there was no restriction on picture taking at that time if the German is in that picture.
TC: No. No. That is very true. No. Because, well this is [pause] yeah. Now, I I think I’m now going to skip to — is it a bit higgledy piggledy or not?
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo.
TC: This is —
CB: At the back we’ve got a drawing.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Right.
TC: That is the bug tug. The tug bug that is the German. And where you look at his picture his arms and legs are like a swastika.
CB: Oh right.
TC: And he is emptying Holland of all the goodies that Holland, that the Dutch had tried to preserve and hide for just in case for a rainy day.
CB: So in this cartoon he’s got hanging on him all sorts of things that he has requisitioned.
TC: Yeah. Exactly.
CB: Yes. Right.
TC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Ok. Stopping again.
TC: Right.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re just looking at a candlestick.
TC: Yeah. That was from one of the Jews who hide, hid in to our, in our house as well.
CB: Yes.
TC: And she said to my father, ‘Look, you know I have hidden the Menorah in the garden. I’ll show you where it is. If anything happens can you dig it up?’ She never came back from Auschwitz. So my father dug it up and I’ve got it. So —
CB: An amazing bit of history.
TC: Yeah. And very [pause] and you look at it and you think not everybody was as lucky as I was. That is the thought that goes behind it, isn’t it? Yeah. Now, and then of course we get the [pause] Yeah. Before anything else can I just have quickly then we can put this one away.
CB: Ok. We’re looking at a photo album.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
TC: And then just to show, this was the house I was born and this was just to show the love that comes out of the photos and the absolute fantastic childhood I had with a lot of fun.
CB: Yes.
TC: My father put me in a waste paper basket and things, you know [laughs] But yeah, I, when you look back this is so important that you see how happy. This is an uncle of mine. He was a fantastic piano player. And this is just to reminisce of a happy childhood. This is again the balcony with that house there. Here I go to school. Very happy at school.
CB: This is the green album we’re looking at.
TC: Yeah. That is me getting a bit —
CB: Dressed up.
TC: Dressed. I’m a bit older. Going out on a holiday camp. That was possible.
CB: Where were the holiday camps?
TC: That was central Holland.
CB: Right.
TC: Yeah. Yeah. And then my brother is born in 1939. And then we are getting here a series of photos of the war. Here is my mother. You can see how old she looks. Attacks from the Germans. There again. The pier. You’ve just seen that one and the other one. And going on holiday in, at the farm. But still —
CB: And where was the farm that you went on holiday?
TC: Barneveld.
CB: How far is that?
TC: That is near Arnhem.
CB: Right.
TC: Yeah. And then you see we had beach walks. We could go and walk on the beaches.
CB: Yeah. This is all before the war.
TC: All before, well at the beginning of the war.
CB: Yeah.
TC: Because now we are getting to, that’s why I wanted to get rid of this album.
CB: Yes.
TC: To [pause] Oh, this is me a bit.
CB: I think, just to clarify the point Holland was neutral when the war started. In the early stages. And it wasn’t until the Germans invaded it in May 1940 that it became, that the war started in Holland.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Although in other, in Britain it had started in September 1939.
TC: Oh yeah. No. No. This was the 10th of May wasn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
TC: That I said.
CB: Yeah.
TC: The 10th of May.
CB: Yeah. So, we’ll stop there for a mo.
TC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
TC: The government. You know, once Holland had capitulated the Queen went to England. Her family went to Canada. So this. And then you get the Atlantic Wall. That was in 1942. Now, that was completely haywire because you could hear the story. We had already people hiding and then we get here the family. He was a Jew. I forgot to say that. Wait a minute. She was a Jew and that were a couple visiting and then there’s my father. It was just a family gathering. Because what had happened with the Atlantic Wall. All the people within this [pause] where is it? Yellow line.
CB: Yes.
TC: They had to vacate their houses. The yellow line was about two or three miles wide.
CB: This is a map of Scandinavia and the continent showing the yellow line being the Atlantic Wall.
TC: That’s it. Yeah. That was the Atlantic Wall. The Germans hadn’t done that. Spain was neutral so that didn’t have to have a wall. But now you can see why Germany was so extremely keen for Holland to capitulate.
CB: Yeah.
TC: Because when they were neutral there was a gap. And the British and the Americans could enter.
CB: Yeah.
TC: And that was the one thing that Hitler was against. He wanted it hermetically closed.
CB: Yeah.
TC: So therefore it was essential that Holland had to be conquered. So that the line was continued. Now, within these two lines I had my grandfather and my aunt who lived near the coast in a beautiful place. And what happens? They had to get out of their house.
CB: Because of the exclusion zone that was the Berlin wall err the Atlantic Wall.
TC: The Atlantic Wall.
CB: Yes.
TC: Everybody had to be out.
CB: Yes.
TC: All the civilians —
CB: Right.
TC: Were not allowed to live there anymore. So you had your house and you had to go. Leave everything behind or, well what would you do with it? You know. It’s very difficult. Now, my aunt was very lucky. That’s another story. My aunt, and there’s my aunt and my grandfather. That’s not the best place.
CB: I’ll just stop a mo.
TC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
TC: We were so lucky. Is that the word? She was so lucky. To the west of Amsterdam, in the middle of nowhere she found this place.
CB: A house.
TC: The house, built in about 1934. Empty. So, obviously in you go. There was, there was nothing there. Later on we get a little bridge to get there over the ditch and so on. And yeah, that was fantastic. So then the Germans thought now that is nice. Let us have a few rooms in this house for us. And they said, ‘You must be bloody joking,’ [laughs] You see, eventually they get a little bridge there and they, they wanted in the house. And they said, ‘No. We have a shed. Listen. If you want accommodation you go stay in the shed and leave us alone.’ And we had a little terrace built and it was great. So, what did the Germans do? On this tree they hung a steel bar and that steel bar was an indication that if there was a raid they say, ‘Don’t worry about here. We are here. Nothing there. So you can carry on.’ So, we were safe in the lion’s den weren’t we?
CB: Yeah.
TC: So, yeah. That was, that was great. And the boys, my brothers amongst them this is middle boy of these three boys that —
CB: This is a picture with a German soldier.
TC: Yeah.
CB: With his arm around him.
TC: Yeah. Ironic. And the boys were, you know, given the helmet to play with and what have you. Yeah. But as I say they were in the shed and the shed was full of rats so it was just the right place for them. Yeah. This is just the by the by one.
CB: Right.
TC: That this, where you had the bicycle. Don’t have tyres on your bicycle because if you have the Germans confiscate it. Any bike with a tyre was a loss. So for miles and miles and miles even my mother had to travel by bike without tyres. That was [unclear] Yeah. So anyway that’s [ ] I thought I had a picture. If you give me one second. Can you manage?
CB: Now, one of the ways as I read it the Germans kept control was to have raids.
TC: Oh yeah.
CB: So, how did that work?
TC: Well, they would close the road. Nobody was to go in or out of their houses. They would enter your houses with the guns and they would go through every room. I can remember having to spend a couple of hours in between floorboards and being as quiet as possible because the Germans were walking on the, on the floor above you. So, do you see what I mean? The fright that was almost second nature. So eventually when I felt that I needed to write it down I wanted to get it off my chest really.
CB: So, just putting this in to context of your age. You were born in 1933. So by ’42, you were talking about earlier you were nine.
TC: Yeah.
CB: So in ’43 you were ten. So when the —
TC: Very aware of what went on. Yeah. Sorry.
CB: That’s ok. Yeah.
TC: Yeah.
CB: So, what was the reaction of families to these German raids?
TC: Fear. [laughs] And they would march through the streets. And then they would you know sing. They had songs. And one of the song was “Und wir fahren gegen Engeland.” “And we sail to England.” And then the people on the pavements watching them, they said, ‘Glug. Glug. Glug. Glug,’ in answer to that. In other words, ‘If you are going to England, drown.’
CB: Oh, I see. Right.
TC: And they were furious when people said that. You know, ‘Glug. Glug. Glug. Glug.’ You know, when they were singing that they were going to England. Marching up to England.
CB: And did they have a threatening approach to the public? The public in general?
TC: No. Not that I can —
CB: Or were they trying to be friendly?
TC: No. No. They were not friendly. It was just a different race. You know, this — we were told to stay away. Not say anything. We had to really be so careful, you know not to upset them because that was life threatening. So we were under very very high discipline not to say anything. Not to do anything. So, well, you had to abide by that.
CB: And when they did the searches of the houses did they confiscate people belongings? Or did they just —
TC: Themselves. People themselves. Oh, they would be marched out of the house if they thought you know were not you were of the wrong age or — oh yeah. People would. And that was also a sign. You saw these vans outside in the streets. And then I can still visualise it now where people were dragged into those vehicles and never be, in many cases never heard of again.
CB: What sort of people were they arresting?
TC: Anybody.
CB: And taking away.
TC: The wrong age.
CB: The wrong age being what?
TC: Military age, you know.
CB: Right.
TC: Old people they were not interested in. Unless you had an association with their enemy if you like. Or if you were a Jew. Oh, you were, then you were definitely out. Yeah. And, and that was very very difficult for me to to absorb really until I went to to Lincoln and I was teaching in Dogdyke. No. Tattershall. Was it Tattershall? Well, where ever it was and somebody said he was a veteran. They had a meeting with somebody who was going to give a talk and unfortunate they were let down. He heard my accent and he said, ‘Do you think you have a story to tell?’ I said, ‘By Jove, have I got a story to tell.’ And I was invited and it was a thundering success. And after that they wanted more and more and more. ‘Can you come to us?’ ‘Can you come to us?’ [unclear] You know how that goes. And then somebody said, ‘Do you know what? Why don’t you write it down?’ So when I moved here I thought, ‘Yeah. I’ll do that. I don’t know anybody so this is the ideal opportunity. I’ll start writing it down.’ That is, you know this one. And then a colleague of mine read it and he said, ‘Thea, that’s far too good. That has to be published.’ And they published it literally the same as this. So that’s how it came about.
CB: That’s what the book is.
TC: That’s what the book is.
CB: And what’s the title of the book?
TC: “Evading the Gestapo in Holland.” But here I just called it, “My story.”
CB: Yes.
TC: But it’s the same one.
CB: What was the — going back to your comment about people being carted out of houses. What was the reaction of the population to the Germans arresting and deporting people?
TC: Very little because they were so scared that if they would say anything they would go and join them. So you couldn’t say anything. But there must be so many people with still those memories in the back of their minds. Because there’s nothing worse than seeing somebody thrown in a van for [pause] well you couldn’t ask for law or rights could you? That was it. And often they were Jews. Yeah.
CB: You mentioned that up in the upstairs flat was a policeman. How did he manage his life working with Germans?
TC: Very carefully. Yeah. Very carefully. Yeah.
CB: Now, all occupied countries had their collaborators. In Norway they were called quislings. What was the title given to Dutch collaborators?
TC: I can’t think at the moment. That will come back.
CB: Ok.
TC: NSPer’s. Well, NSPer’s I suppose. National Socialists.
CB: Yes.
TC: He is an NSPer. Yeah. NSPer.
CB: Right. And did they have something distinctive that they wore so that the Germans didn’t worry them?
TC: Well, that was with one of the lodgers we had. He suddenly came with an NSP pin thing on his, so we knew that he was from the wrong side. Can you just stop it a minute?
CB: Yes.
TC: Because —
[recording paused]
TC: Do you want to read it? No. Do you want —
CB: So, now we’re —
TC: You —
CB: You tell us what we’ve got there.
TC: What the Hunger Winter —
CB: Yes.
TC: Was like.
CB: So when was that? When was the Hunger Winter? In 1944.
TC: Yeah. 1944.
CB: The end of ’44 was it?
TC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TC: Well, there was [pause] yeah ’44. Here we are.
CB: Ok.
TC: What we didn’t have. No radio.
CB: Right.
TC: No electricity. No more gas. The first hunger fatalities. Twenty thousand people died.
CB: Of?
TC: Of hunger.
CB: Right.
TC: And ninety eight thousand were starvations. Or was it that? Yeah. Then what is to say?
CB: The bread.
TC: The bread rations. Yeah. No bread. Oh God, it was just gloop. No electricity at all. No gas.
CB: So, there were beggars on the streets.
TC: Oh yeah. I can remember when I was in a Children’s Home there was a dog. It had the dog bowl. And I had to look after the dining area. That was when I was in the Children’s Home. And the dog had better food than me. So I licked his food as if it was a dog. So they couldn’t see that I had eaten it. Can you imagine?
CB: Extraordinary.
TC: Yeah.
CB: And the dog belonged to who? The Germans or to the owner?
TC: No. No. That was from the house. But they were pro Germans anyway so.
CB: Right.
TC: Well, they had the German religion.
CB: So what type of Children’s Home was that? What sort of [pause] Were they orphans or what were they?
TC: Usually of parents who were missionaries in Africa and the kids couldn’t go with them. So they stayed in that home. So that was eventually where my brother found me a place. Ah, because now you can really get to the story about my father’s —
CB: Right.
TC: Go back to —
CB: Keep going.
TC: Yeah. Go back to the lodgers. We had a lodger and his name was Mr Somners. And Mr Somners was fantastic. We used to call him Mr Ringaling. He had gold rimmed glasses. And he had a secretary. She was a beauty. And she stayed with that policeman upstairs. And then suddenly they decided they loved one another and they would like to live together. So they decided then that he would move with the girl but the Germans got hold of that and they arrested her mother. And they said to her, ‘If you play,’ Mr Ringaling, ‘Mr Somners, into our hands we’ll free your mother.’ So they made an appointment, these two at the Square in the Hague. And she said, ‘Well, the one I kiss is the man, and — ’ Because she had to choose between her mother and her lover. So she, the moment that she kissed him he got arrested there and then. And so did she. And then they were taken to the Gestapo headquarters and then Mr Somners walked in. They got a fright because amongst the Germans were Resistance workers undercover. They jumped on their bike and they went to all the houses they could remember and when it was 9 o’clock in the morning there was my mother. I was at school and she said, they said to my mother, ‘You get that child and out of the house now. You haven’t got time to pack or anything like that. Five minutes. Out.’ So she did. When I came back from school at lunchtime, because in Holland you don’t stay at school you always go home, there was nobody in. The house was already then confiscated. And then what I found out from Willie here what Mr Somners did and also consequently my father. They were involved in smuggling Jews to Spain. Or for that matter to Norway. I think. Yeah. Those two. So, and they recognised him by his teeth afterwards and she was [unclear] to death. And her mother never heard of any more. Also died. So you can imagine that was for us suddenly the end. You know. I come from school. Then what do you do with a girl of my age? So Willie took me by the hand and she had just been confirmed by a vicar so she went to him and she said, ‘I’m stuck with her. What do I do?’ So he said, ‘Well, leave her with us for a fortnight and then we’ll see what we can do.’ But the problem was when we went to church people would say, ‘Who’s that kid?’ And then I overheard somebody saying, ‘This is a child of a family on the run.’ Well, I was adult there and then. I matured. There was no childhood for me anymore. That was it. So I, and then I went from the vicar. He had two girls who ran a farm so he took me to them. One was a teacher and one was a nurse so at least I got eventually a little bit of education. And then of course they had the mill next door with seven kids but I was not allowed to play with them. Then they got diphtheria so that was danger. Out. So then I went to an egg farmer and I’ve never seen so many eggs being processed. Processed. And I didn’t stay there for very long either and then eventually I, Wim, my brother he was then discovered as being about and he said, ‘Well, I am here. Very close to a Children’s Home. Try it.’ So that is where I went. And thanks to my brother, you know. As I say, you know he just carried on. And I went to the Children’s Home. But then of course my brother, my father was then also being spotted, you know through this arrest of this Mr Somners. So he had to find [pause] Can you just switch it off a minute?
[recording paused]
CB: We’re talking about your father.
TC: Talk about my father. My father had then been given a new name. [unclear] . My brother, my little brother lived with my mother. Sometimes they met with my father as well. Not very often. And then Hans had to say, ‘I’m not Hans Tielrooy. I’m Hans [unclear].’ He said, ‘That’s not my name.’ So he became a danger and had to go. So, but then my father had a new passport. Where again the RAF came in useful with the Peace Palace because behind the Peace Palace was a huge villa with all the ins and outs of the population of Holland. You know. Register Centre. And they were asked to flatten it and they did. And that is where people like my father finally had now a chance to have a new passport. And that’s it. And the beauty of it is you see he puts a pair of specs on. His hair is slightly different. And then he, yeah he was well you can see he was really very scared but the beauty is his date of birth could not be traced because they made him a false passport with his birth on. Birthplace Surabaya in Indonesia. Because we were at war with Japan and they couldn’t check it. So at least he had a little bit of freedom of moving about. Very precious this. Yeah.
CB: We’ll just stop there a mo.
[recording paused]
TC: Heavily involved.
CB: So your sister Willie was ten years older than you.
TC: Yes.
CB: So her perspective was quite different and she was more mature. So what was her position?
TC: She was very very heavily involved in the Resistance. Together with my father as well. I didn’t know. Neither did anybody else in the house know that in this Mr Somner’s room was a German uniform. Yeah. But it has, but Willie has used it and she got somebody out of prison in that uniform. So a young chap that otherwise would have probably been executed or whatever. But in the end, as I say she was so heavily involved that Queen Wilhelmina invited her with about twenty other Resistance youngsters and she was invited to stay in her palace for about nine months to recuperate. And I can remember going through the gardens saying, ‘Oh, Willie, that’s your room.’ [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. That was quite a crown on the [pause] jewel on the crown or whatever you call it and, yeah.
CB: How did she come to be in a position where the Queen invited her to do this?
TC: Oh, that’s a difficult question actually. I haven’t thought about that. That must have been from the group that she was working with for the Resistance that they recommended her. Or that there must have been something like that.
CB: So, what sort of recuperation? She would have been short of food but mentally was she exhausted?
TC: I think that that was the case. Yeah. Yeah. She was a very intensive person. Yeah. And Queen Wilhelmina obviously. Even though she lived in England she decided with the Arnhem business to go on to make sure that the Dutch went on strike with the railway. And that made the Germans so angry that they’d made the worse, the war worse. But they weren’t. Oh, here it is. Look. Here. They, she invited and strike and they said, ‘If you strike it will only bring horror to yourselves.’ But they carried on because again with this army lot, Arnhem lot, she because there was so much Resistance that the Germans didn’t get through to drop the food because they said, ‘Is it really food you’re going to drop or is it bombs and people?’ And then eventually, very late in the day did they get permission. I think it is the 29th of April. Well, you can imagine.
CB: Let me just stop you a mo. Just to put this in to context we’re now talking about later. At the end of the war.
TC: Yeah.
CB: What is termed over here Operation Manna.
TC: Yeah.
CB: And so the RAF and the Americans dropping food. And that’s what you’re talking about now.
TC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So —
TC: And there was also —
CB: What was the date it started? 28th of April 1945.
TC: It could be. Yeah.
CB: Right.
TC: I don’t know. I have —
CB: But you were saying about the German’s reaction.
TC: Yeah. Because they were dead against the RAF flying over to drop food and they said we will give you a channel and this is the channel that they were allowed. If they were slightly out they would be shot dead. Shot down. And here are the areas where the food drops would take place. The red is from America and the other ones are with the RAF.
CB: So what were they dropping? What sort of things were they dropping?
TC: Gee whizz. This you saw. You sort it out. Look.
CB: Yeah.
TC: This is one drop.
CB: Right. So that. This is a photograph of a field.
TC: Yeah. Near Rotterdam.
CB: And it’s bags. And so the challenge with the bags was whether they would burst.
TC: Some did.
CB: On landing.
TC: Some didn’t. And then of course they needed so many people to collect it all. And do you know nobody stole. Everybody was starving hungry. Nobody. It was all centred at the place where then it was properly distributed. Which I think is admirable because if you were starving hungry well — you eat. Well, like me eating the dog food.
CB: How was the food distributed after it was collected? Was your father involved with that?
TC: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t think so but it was all done from a central area. You had to queue. Oh God. When, for the Swedish bread the Germans stopped that. We sometimes queued for two and a half hours. Two or three hours for one loaf of bread.
Other: God.
TC: And it was worth it because you were so, so hungry. And as I say I was so underfed that they had to spoon feed me with a teaspoon. Hans, when we came out of the Children’s Home, Hans, my brother, he had frozen feet. And I was, well near death really. So as I said then and that was [unclear] where Willie had her first job. But originally it was from a Jewish barrel maker and that is where my father then found refuge when he needed it after, obviously he was looked for. When he was more or less after this incident of the [pause] Yeah.
CB: So what we’re talking about here is the western part of Holland.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Which had been bypassed by the allies as they moved — North Holland and into Germany and the population was starving. At what stage did they shortage food really start to bite?
TC: That started already quite early. Here, you see this is the last bit that was still being occupied that because this of Holland was already liberated.
CB: Yes. The eastern side and the south.
TC: And then of course you get Arnhem.
CB: Yeah.
TC: The big battle of Arnhem with the disasters of that one. And then. Yeah.
CB: As they pushed past that.
TC: Twenty two. Twenty two thousand people died. And nine hundred and eighty thousand were classed as malnutrition and I was one of them.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
CB: So this is September 1944 that the Arnhem experience took place. But this drop of food is six months after that in April.
TC: Yeah. Indeed. Yeah. There’s the battle of Arnhem. Twenty two thousand dead. Back to [pause] why did I? Oh, I don’t know what that is. Obviously, you read that too.
CB: So my question really is that the distribution of food had already become difficult.
TC: Oh yeah.
CB: But when did it become extremely serious? Do you remember?
TC: That must have been, oh [pause] the year before, I reckon. Yeah. Because when did I leave the Children’s Home? [pause] September ’44. Yeah. That is when it really started to bite.
CB: As the west of Holland was isolated by the allied forces pressing on past the western part of Holland.
TC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: The cooking.
TC: On this tin.
CB: Doing the cooking.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So what’s the tin?
TC: The home-made tin. A plaster tin. You know, the plaster was inside. You just —
CB: Yes. But what did you put in it to cook to create the heat?
TC: A bit of wood.
CB: Yes. But where did you get the wood from?
TC: Find it everywhere. Tiny little bits of wood in [pause] well anywhere. Maybe in the shed or — but they were no bigger than so.
CB: Yeah. And did you increasingly then have to forage around for wood to burn because it must have run out in the local area?
TC: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So what did you do then?
TC: We looked for it. Go for walks.
CB: Did you go out in parties of walking?
TC: Yeah. Or look in the sheds. Anything that would burn you made to size and then burned it in that.
CB: Yes.
TC: I wish that I had bought one. A cousin of mine has got a real one.
CB: Oh right.
TC: Yeah.
CB: And then no electricity so how did you see in the night?
TC: You didn’t.
CB: In the evenings.
TC: You didn’t. No radio. Nothing.
CB: No candles.
TC: No. No. No. Candles were very scarce. Begging for food.
CB: So, tell us about the food. How did you get hold of food?
TC: You didn’t. You, you queued for hours if there was any in the shops. But there were no more potatoes. The only one was stinging nettles, tulip bulbs and sugar beets.
CB: So, how did you cook those stinging nettles?
TC: Well, they were mostly raw. You know. You put it in hot water and then it softened it a bit.
CB: Yes.
TC: And, and then in the end well you just didn’t eat. Nothing to eat.
CB: You mentioned begging. So how did that work?
TC: Knock on the door. ‘I’m hungry.’
CB: So children did the begging or did —
TC: No.
CB: Adults did it as well.
TC: Adults did. Children didn’t come in to this at all. No. Yeah. Even first food aid from Sweden. That was white bread.
CB: So this was the beginning of 1945.
TC: That was February. Yeah. Yeah. Because that bread, I’ve never seen white bread like the Swedish bread. It was whiter than white. Amazing. And then of course the Germans stopped that one.
CB: So where did that come in from? How did that come to Holland? Did it —
TC: By train or —
CB: Somehow through the German lines did it? Or did it —
TC: It must be —
CB: Come in by sea.
TC: No. No. Certainly not by sea. No. First aid from Sweden must have come by road.
CB: Through Germany.
TC: Through Germany. Yeah.
CB: Right.
TC: Because the Germans had to agree to that and they did.
CB: Right.
TC: And then the Germans were food dropped because they were afraid that they could be combined with bombs. Which is logical.
CB: This is the RAF.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Supplying. Yeah.
TC: And the Operation Manna starts there. Oh God, that was — I can still see them. Oh, you could see the, they flew that low you could see the pilot’s face. Oh, that was a miracle. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah. And that was so interesting when we met last year or the year before when you could say, ‘Well, this was our reaction what was your reaction?’ And they all cried.
CB: This was in Lincoln when some of the aircrew were there.
TC: Yeah. Yeah. They were so impressed and like we didn’t know in how far they would, the Holland has so many flat roofs so we could spread the flag. And the flag was forbidden but we put flag on. Thank you, Tommies. Or we just waved. Oh gosh. Yeah.
CB: The man I interviewed the other day said how the Germans were shaking their fists at his aircraft flying at a hundred and fifty feet.
TC: I can well imagine. But we were kissing.
CB: Exactly. And he then went on to the Dutch people waving. Yes.
TC: Really? Oh yeah. And sometimes you really took a risk. Yeah. And that was the same when we had the Liberation in Amsterdam. I’m going a bit —
CB: That’s alright.
TC: Higgledy piggledy. And so when the war was declared finished they thought hooray. So the heart of Holland is the Dam in Amsterdam. But everybody gathered together and they were all standing there, you know, pale and hungry and very tightly together because the air force err now the allies were coming in their tanks. And when they came around the corner full of flowers and girls and what have you and the whole of the mass of people went berserk with hooray. We had all dyed some pieces of material in orange or whatever. But the big buildings around this square there were still German soldiers on there.
CB: On the roof.
TC: On the roof. And what did they buggers do? They shot on the main, on the people. Absolutely. When we asked, ‘What did you do? Why did you do it?’ And they said, ‘Well, why didn’t you cheer like this when we arrived?’ Can you imagine? The nerve. And the tanks were immediately closed and, oh that was horrendous and we all had to fled, flee down side roads. And there were nineteen people killed. Yeah. And that was Liberation. ‘Why didn’t you cheer like this for when we arrived?’ How big headed can you get? You never learn do you?
CB: What happened to them? So clearly they survived. So they weren’t killed by the Dutch.
TC: I wouldn’t be surprised if that didn’t happened on the quiet. Yeah. Because they, they, well they couldn’t stay there could they?
CB: No.
TC: They were still the enemy. And we had the liberators coming in. Oh, I can still remember this. That was frightening. And we were standing all like this because it was packed. Absolutely overpacked. Amazing how little flares of —
CB: Memory.
TC: Memories come back.
CB: So you were still starving effectively.
TC: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: How did the food get distributed then? At the time of the celebration was there, were there food trucks with the tanks or did you get the food later?
TC: Later. Yeah. It was, it was a slow coming of food. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And that was distributed by the local authorities.
TC: Shops. Yeah. Shops.
CB: Through the shops.
TC: Through the shops. And you all had issues. You know. What do you call them?
Other 2: Ration.
CB: Ration cards.
TC: Ration cards. Yeah. Yeah. And with, and then you stand there queuing. Not just for ten minutes. Hours. Yeah.
CB: And how did society return to normal after that? If ever.
TC: With great difficulty. Yeah. But you know then once it was done and over with you know you all got together and put your shoulders on it and made the best of it.
CB: So, your family returned to your house.
TC: No.
CB: Right.
TC: No. Because our house there, that house there that was completely occupied because you very rarely owned a house. So it was always rented. So when we came back to the Hague my father was allocated this house through the Resistance. And that was a whacking big house. Fantastic. Until about six months after. There was a ring of the bell and she said, ‘This is my house. I’ve survived and I want my house back. So, we want you out.’ So that was another problem. So then the Resistance was still very very much active in that work and they found us this house that we lived in where you have been. And yeah, that was in [pause] that had been in an area that was evacuated for a long long time so there were no roads. No pavements. You know. That was all very, well pre-historic as it were.
CB: In the countryside this was.
TC: No. That was a part of the Hague.
CB: Oh, it was.
TC: Yeah. And that is of course where I went to school and so on. And that’s another thing. Talk about going to school. When we lived in that nice house there and this was still pre, after I had just been about five or six years of age.
CB: Before the war started.
TC: Yeah. Well, no. Yeah. But there was an awful lot of water. You know that house with the beautiful view? There was a lot of water about and Hans my brother he almost drowned in it. So, and Willie and Wim, my brother they had to take me before school to the park where there was a swimming pool because I had to learn to swim. And that was their task. To take me to the swimming pool regularly during the week. Every other day or so. To teach me how to swim. And I can still remember the lady who had ginger hair and her body was purple with cold because it was an open air one and but I learned to swim and once I could swim that was it. That was them finished. That’s another flare of —
CB: That’s alright. We’ll just stop for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, thinking of the drops in Operation Manna. The dropping of the food and what was it? What — did you see that or did you just hear about it in other ways?
TC: Maybe in the distance but that was a, that is a little bit vague memory at the moment.
Other: Yeah.
TC: But I can remember once it was put to the central areas where it was distributed. There was the egg powder. Oh God the egg powder. Milk powder. Bread. All sorts of vegetables and, yeah stuff really to go into the larder. That is the stuff that was generally in the bags.
CB: So it was flour but was there baked bread as well?
TC: There was also baked bread. Yeah.
CB: Right.
TC: But very rare.
CB: Yes. Because it’s very bulky.
TC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And how did the population hear about the deliveries of these?
TC: Well, they either saw it or they knew where the Centres were and then you could go to the Centres. On your bike of course.
CB: Yes.
TC: Or walking. To collect your goodies.
CB: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
TC: And as I say sometimes there were little parcels, but from the pilots themselves who had wrapped it up for the kids.
CB: Really? Yeah.
TC: You know. Chocolate or sweets.
CB: So the delivery was in bags or was it in other items as well?
TC: All sorts. All sorts. It was in containers and bags and —
CB: Containers so it wouldn’t break.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Large.
TC: Yeah. Large. About that size. Yeah.
CB: Good. I think we’ll stop there for a mo. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
TC: Even that’s true, and how much is still to think about. To remember.
CB: Yes. It’s an extra.
TC: At that time you just took it, well as a surprise. You couldn’t get over it. I mean, if you look at this you can see what sort of baggage.
CB: This is the picture of the dropping area.
Other: This is the drops. Yeah.
TC: That’s near Rotterdam. And they needed hundreds of people to collect it all. And they didn’t leave a scrap. They picked it all up. Nothing was wasted.
CB: And the Germans didn’t come and confiscate any of it.
TC: No. I don’t think they dared. Because by that time they knew that the game was up.
CB: Yeah. We’ll stop there. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
CB: We can —
Other: We still want to record this don’t we?
CB: Now, we talked about a lot of things to do with the Operation Manna drops. We then went on to how the food was distributed.
TC: Yeah.
CB: We haven’t really talked about how it was consumed. Because people are not just undernourished. They’re actually starving. So there’s a danger in that. So how did you start eating when the food came?
TC: Because usually there was somebody in charge of a person who is that underfed that they, like for instance myself. When I came out of the Children’s Home they sent me to this place where my father originally hid and where Willie originally had her job where they made these barrels. You know, the Jewish firm that was taken over. Anyway, so they sent me there for about a fortnight before I was then joining the rest of the family in Amsterdam and she, the farmer’s wife next door she said, ‘Thea, come in the morning. I’ll feed you up.’ And then she would feed me on cream and things. And I stayed there a fortnight and was fine. So that was ok. And then we went to Amsterdam where of course again we were at a loss because you saw how busy that house of my aunt was in, outside Amsterdam. Willie, in the meantime hired a room in the middle of Amsterdam South with a Jewish family. And she hired a room because sometimes there was an opportunity, no a necessity for getting your breath back. So, and that was of course also in the Hunger Winter when you were outside trying to collect little bits of wood and things like that. So that is where we were then. In that room. And that was very very nice indeed because it was peaceful. We all got away from each other for a while because otherwise you were getting on each other’s nerves. Especially with my aunt falling ill. She could be course in her legs and in her neck and so on. It was just tubercular disease. So we were a little bit in the way then. And so now and again as I say we needed a breather. And Willie had particularly access to that. To that room. And yeah. I, that was, that was very nice and the people downstairs were fantastic, you know. She was a Jewish. And we had yeah happy times there. From there, well, then of course the Liberation that we went to the dam with all these people. Squashed together. There was no other way to call it but squashed together. Yeah.
CB: And how were the people feeling at that time?
TC: What did the people we hired from?
CB: No. The people that went together to Amsterdam. What did they actually feel about what was going on?
TC: They wanted to celebrate. There was liberty you know. And they, they wanted to well share the condemnation for the Germans. And then of course these. I can still them on the rooftop you know. With their guns still. That they didn’t prevent this by getting to them and saying, ‘Hey, give me your gun.’ That they just opened fire on them. Must have been a mad moment in their lives. Of frustration, or what I know, whatever. But it was and then of course as I say Liberation. Freedom. Yeah.
CB: You talked about some families being half Jewish. So, how were they handled during the war?
TC: They kept it quiet. You know. Not — and that was another thing. You see in the beginning they wanted everything up in the open. So the Jews were persuaded to wear a star with the word Jew on it. And they said, ‘If you wear that you’re safe from prosecution.’ That is an indication. Forget me. Isn’t it? Stupid. And people fell for things like that. Anything for easy going, you know. Getting out of awkward situations. And it was —
CB: It was the beginning of the learning curve about the German reaction to Jews.
TC: Yeah. And why would the Germans be so anti-Jewish? Maybe because of business because the Jews were better off than they were. You don’t know what’s behind it all because nobody would open up. But that, that’s the only thing you can do. That is to speculate as it were.
CB: You mentioned earlier about right at the end there were people eating. But there were some Jewish people there. How had they survived all that time?
TC: Just like everybody else.
CB: In hiding.
TC: Yeah. And hungry. Because there was nothing else. All you wanted to do was not to be arrested. Not to be shot. You know. Save your life.
CB: On a lighter note you were cycling without tyres. So —
TC: Oh, my numb bum [laughs] Oh God. At the end sometimes they had a little pillow to sit on but that, Oh God, I can still feel it [laughs]
CB: What did you carry on the bikes? Was it adults and children with shopping or clothes? Or what did you carry on bikes?
TC: Usually it was just to go from A to B. You know, to get somewhere because that was the only transport. There were no trams or buses or anything, trains. So the only way was a bike and if it had tyres you knew that would be confiscated and for the rest you didn’t go anywhere. And if you had to do some shopping I presume you would go walking because you wouldn’t dare. Well, like my mother you know she was laden and then the Germans said, ‘Thanks very much. Now you can go. We’ve got your stuff.’ It is unbelievable isn’t it? That they got away with it. Yeah.
CB: You mentioned school.
TC: Yeah.
CB: So how, how long did school continue?
TC: Oh God. Not very long because then there were days that they didn’t open. There were maybe one or two hours. And in the end, and then of course was the heating. So they had to close the schools. Oh, and that was another thing. You had staff. Suddenly some members of the staff disappeared. Why? Some of the kids disappeared. Why? Because they were hiding. You know they were obviously [pause] and then school was a dangerous place.
CB: So it wasn’t that the authorities had closed down the school.
TC: They did in the end.
CB: They did.
TC: They did in the end. They said, ‘Look. This can’t go on. We haven’t got the amenities. The money.’ And so then the schools closed and that is why the people in America admired me so for having worked the hours available. That I took so much advantage and courage out of them that they thought I needed a treat. And that was my husband.
CB: So you, you went to America to stay with friends.
TC: Yeah.
CB: How long did you stay there?
TC: About nine months.
CB: That’s in Texas.
TC: Yeah. Dallas —
CB: And then you went to Washington. Was it?
TC: Washington and New York. Because that lady amongst that lot living she had a nephew living there. So she went there. So she was there and I could visit her.
CB: What made you return to Holland from America?
TC: Well, because I needed a future for a job and I was not there for a permanent holiday. It was just a holiday and nothing else. And I was very grateful. Especially because they loved me so much for my courage.
CB: Indeed.
TC: Yeah.
CB: So you travelled back by ship.
TC: Yeah. The Nieuw Amsterdam.
CB: Right. And where did that go from and to?
TC: New York to Amsterdam.
CB: And who was on the ship? What? What —
TC: There was a contingent of RAF chaps who had just been to a course and they were dropped in England somewhere. The south.
CB: Which year are we talking about now?
TC: ’59. Thereabouts.
CB: Right.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
TC: And then I came to England. Got married in Hull in ’61. So that was about high speed I suppose.
CB: What was the significance of Hull?
TC: It was the only place where I could travel to easily from Holland.
CB: To see your boyfriend, then fiancé.
TC: Yeah. He was then in Lincolnshire somewhere. So, and then I taught in Hull and that is where we got married. And oh, I lived on the top floor somewhere in a — downstairs was the doctor’s surgery. And I lived upstairs in, in the room above.
CB: Yes.
TC: And, yeah.
CB: Then when you were married, where? Then when you were married where was your husband stationed?
TC: Driffield.
CB: Right.
TC: Yeah.
CB: And what accommodation did you have there?
TC: Quarters. Yeah. And then eventually, you know we moved and put a deposit on a house and so on. So —
CB: What other places did you get posted? Did he get posted to.
TC: St Athan. Oh God.
CB: You were in Coningsby or a while.
TC: Coningsby. St Athan. Where have I got that little envelope with all the ins and outs?
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo.
TC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
TC: Heathcote Road.
CB: Where? Where’s that?
TC: That is in [pause] oh God.
CB: Where? Where did you buy the house?
TC: The first house we bought. Fortescue Close in ’68. And we left there ’78.
CB: But was that in Lincolnshire?
TC: Yeah. It’s all Lincolnshire.
CB: Oh. It is. Right. And did you get, did he get a posting abroad?
TC: Yeah. Germany of all places. That is where she came from.
CB: What was that like?
TC: To start with a little apprehensive to say the least. But I spoke the language because obviously in Holland you learn French and German and English. So I could communicate. And we lived amongst the Germans and that was actually a very good therapy for realising they were not all bad. That was, that was usually —
CB: What was their reaction to the British? Because we’re talking about the 60s now are we? Or 70s?
TC: Well, as long as they paid. They were after money. It didn’t matter what they did. And they were not particularly so anti-British. Hey. Would you like this?
CB: Yes please. Thank you.
[pause]
CB: And so, when you were in Germany how long were you there and what did you do?
TC: Three years.
CB: Yes.
TC: And I also taught there.
CB: You did.
TC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: On the school in the station.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Which station? Where were you stationed?
TC: Gütersloh.
CB: Right
TC: Yeah. That was a nice place. Yeah.
CB: And from there —
TC: England. Wales.
CB: Oh, St Athan.
TC: Speak Welsh.
CB: Yeah. That’s really well done, I thought. Yeah. And then your husband retired. What age did he retire from the RAF?
TC: Normal age.
CB: Yeah.
TC: Yeah.
CB: And then what job did he do after that?
TC: Then we got divorced.
CB: Oh.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Right.
TC: In fact, in between I married him twice.
CB: Right.
TC: [laughs] I’m an idiot. My sense of humour is wicked.
CB: It is but it’s good. Entertaining and generally admirable.
TC: Yeah. But it didn’t work.
CB: No.
TC: No. So —
CB: But you kept on teaching.
TC: Yeah. Right until ’94.
CB: So when you were divorced you were at Coningsby, were you? And then you —
TC: Yeah.
CB: Did you carry on teaching there?
TC: Yes. I have got here. That is the headmaster who said the school has rules.
CB: Oh yes.
TC: And I said, ‘Yes Nigel. I believe you.’
CB: But?
TC: I had my own way [laughs] But when you hear. When you read this I’m in seventh heaven. They couldn’t have praised me higher than this. This is the [pause] he says —
CB: This is the headmaster’s report.
TC: Yeah. I was a headmistress as well for a while [pause] Oh here. “I want you to picture a scene. A dark cold stormy night. The fierce wind was lashing the waves over the top of the dyke. The sails on the windmill were rushing around at a tremendous speed. Suddenly a piercing cry was heard and all went quiet. In England, across the water explosions and bright lights shot into the night to celebrate. Thea Coleman had been born [laughs] Ever since, in England fireworks have been lit off to celebrate her birthday on November the 5th. Little is known about Thea before she went to school but we do know she had a happy childhood.” Can’t have better than that can you? Yeah. So it goes on and on. And even the kids now they are still talking to me. They still phone me.
CB: Is that right?
TC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Even after all these years.
TC: Yeah.
CB: Where did you become your own headteacher?
TC: Just before he left. Before he came. I was replaced by him. And then in between I had [pause] it was only in here we were standing as it were.
CB: Yeah.
TC: And then there was this one. There’s Jim. Now, he took it from a different point. First, I thought I should begin in true Coleman’s style by side tracking because that’s what I like to do. A friend of mine is a jeweller. When buying an old item, discussing gem stones with him he explained the reason for cutting stones in the ways that they do. One reason is to make a stone catch the light and sparkle. Another reason, rather more subtle is to reflect light into the stone. Anyway, so he compares my person with a gemstone.
CB: Right.
TC: And then he sees me as a friend. And then as a teacher. And then as a colleague. Which is rather nice way of describing me.
CB: Yeah.
TC: And then —
CB: And this is your school report as a teacher.
TC: Yeah. As a pupil.
CB: Appreciation.
TC: Yeah. Which is, which I appreciate.
CB: Where was your last teaching post?
TC: Gee whizz. That was in [pause] Hell’s bells, that was here [pause] Because this one was written of my retirement. Where the hell was it? See, now that’s sometimes my memory goes a bit. How come [pause] gee whizz.
CB: I’ll stop just for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So your last post in teaching was at Coningsby.
TC: Yeah.
CB: And you retired at what age?
TC: ’94. ’33. What was it? Work it out.
CB: Yeah. Quite a few years. Sixty.
TC: Sixty.
CB: One.
TC: Sixty one.
CB: Yeah.
TC: That’s just about right.
CB: Yeah.
TC: Yeah.
CB: That’s very good. And you’ve got a couple of anecdotes there have you?
TC: Well, this is just a postscript out of my book.
CB: Yes.
TC: You know, afterwards you think like one memory that has been suppressed all this time is now ready to be put into words and to add to my story. On one of my many walks in Amsterdam with my father all pedestrians were stopped by soldiers. We were near a, near a prison. In retaliation of an assassinated German five young men came out and were lined up and executed and we had to watch. A vicar who looked at it from his window and praying for them was killed by a stray bullet. So that is one of the [pause] And then there is another one. I should have elaborated on a train journey to Hellouw, that’s where my grandfather lived, with my father. Fancy my fear when he told me, ‘Look, when soldiers enter the train and if I get arrested pretend you don’t know me. But make sure you take that suitcase with you.’ So those were, you know you were only little. Nine. Whatever. And then there is Fritz. I’ve told you about Fritz. The four year old taken by the Gestapo from my grandfather’s house. Devastated. The parents were so grateful for their safety for the other two boys and so that they planted a tree for my family in Jerusalem near the Holocaust Museum. And when I mentioned the crowd on the Dam with the Germans opening fire. Twenty nine people were killed. One soldier was asked, ‘Why did you do it?’ His answer was, ‘Why didn’t you cheer like this when we arrived?’ And then the house we were allocated that had been confiscated by the Germans from a Jewish family had been used as a prison. That’s the first house we came back to after the war. And when we lived in it a man came to the door to ask if his shoes were still there. He had escaped out of the window with the help of a sheet. There’s are just a couple of thoughts that I thought needed remembering.
CB: Yes. Thea —
TC: Especially with my memory going.
CB: Thea Coleman, thank you for a fascinating conversation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Thea Coleman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:47:23 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AColemanRE170914
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Netherlands
Netherlands--Amsterdam
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1942
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Thea Coleman was born in 1933 in Holland. She experienced the invasion of her country and the increasing restrictions. When walking once with her father they were forced to stand and wait while prisoners were brought out of prison and executed while they were forced to watch. Thea’s family were involved with the Resistance and she was forced to go into hiding with various people until she finally went to live in a Children’s Home. The RAF bombed the Registry in the town and so her father and others were able to change their identities and obtain new documents. The family hid Jewish people. One Jewish woman who was hidden by the family told them she had hidden the Menorah in her garden and to please dig it up if she did not return. She did not return and Thea still has this in her possession as a reminder of horrors of that time. Thea was so hungry that she ate the food from the dog’s bowl in the Children’s Home where she was living. Operation Manna saved her life because she was severely malnourished. When the people thought that Liberation had arrived they gathered at the Dam Square in Amsterdam. German soldiers were hiding on the rooftops and opened fire on the crowd killing and injuring a large number of civilians.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
faith
fear
heirloom
Holocaust
home front
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/226/3371/AChapmanSCD171014.1.mp3
8bff133f32334472d8e8028f9868f9df
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jaques, Reg
Reg Jaques
Charles R Jaques
Charles Jaques
C R Jaques
C Jaques
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Charles Reginald Jaques (1913-1943, 136865 Royal Air Force) and contains a letter, his history, personnel document, items concerning his wedding, the names of the his crew's next of kin, condolence letter and nine photographs. The collection also contains an oral history interview with Susan Carol Doreen Chapman about her father, Charles Reginald Jaques. Reg Jaques was a navigator flying in Lancasters with 103 Squadron, RAF Elsham Wolds in 1943. He was killed along with his crew in a collision with another Lancaster on 16 December 1943. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susan Chapman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Reg Jaques is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/112003/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-05
2017-10-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jaques, CR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Hello. My name is Pam Locker and I’m here at the home of Mrs Susan Carol Doreen Chapman nee Jaques.
PL: On the 14th of October 2017. And can I just start Sue by saying an enormous thank you on behalf of the Bomber Command Digital Archive for offering us your story. And I understand that you’re going to read a narrative that you’ve put together about everything that has happened. So, when you’re ready.
SC: Ok.
PL: If you’d like to start.
SC: Thank you. My mother related the story of how one day she heard me tell someone that I had been a lucky girl as I had had two daddies. This is their and my stories from memories — mostly from family and friends of those who knew and loved them. My name is Susan Chapman nee Jaques. I was born at the Mary Rodham Nursing Home in Newport, Shropshire on the 15th of November 1943. My mother was Gwendolyn Betty Jaques, known as Teg to her family and Betty to everyone else, nee Stokes. And my father was Charles Reginald Jaques, known as Reg. He was born on the 25th of March 1913 and brought up in Leeholme, County Durham one of six, and the second boy. He had one brother. Another died in infancy and his four sisters. Their father was a builder. Their mother died young and Reg’s elder sister brought up the family. He left school at aged fourteen or fifteen and went to work in the offices of the local coal mine but educating himself, I am told, by using the streetlight to read. He had an aptitude for maths and also played the violin. He moved to work as chief financial officer in the local authority offices of Newport in Shropshire — living in digs with a couple who I’m told thought the world of him. It was while working here that he and my mother met. She was born on the 1st of January 1920 being christened Gwendolyn Betty. She was brought up in Heath House, Gnosall, Staffordshire where her father was a builder and joiner. Along with her only sister, who has provided me with a lot of this family history, she attended Stafford Girl’s High School, travelling by train every day. She also had an aptitude for music and played the piano to such a high standard that she won a prize at the Eisteddfod in Wales. Latterly, at school she played for the daily assemblies. She left school aged fifteen years of age and initially went to work in the offices of Stafford Laundry and then to Barclays Bank in Newport. The consensus seems to be that they literally met in the street as both worked close to one another. The distance from Newport from Gnosall is approximately seven miles and my aunt recalls that Reg walked her home after work one Saturday morning, he pushing his bike. They got engaged around the time of Dunkirk. That would be May 1940. Her engagement ring is an art deco design. On this happy occasion for them my aunt was not left out and they gave her a brooch as her present which she has recently given to me. I’ve just found this out and I’m very pleased to have this as another keepsake. My aunt says this act is another indication of how thoughtful and nice Reg was as a person. Comments that have been made to me over the years from people who knew him or of him fully endorse this. They married on the 1st of January 1941. Mum’s 21st birthday at Gnosall Methodist Chapel and spent their honeymoon in Shrewsbury. Her parents gave her money out of which she had to buy her wedding dress and she also brought her piano. They set up home in an area of Gnosall known as Audmore as Heath House was in fact in Gnosall Heath. From comments made by mum I think that they initially rented a property and on being refused the right to purchase Reg was very unhappy. They both attended the local chapel and he taught in the Sunday School. They visited his family in the north east and on get togethers’ later in life my mother and sister would reminisce of these occasions. Although in a reserved occupation he joined the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve on August the 6th 1941 and told for the duration of the current emergency as an aircraftsman second class. He was recommended for training as a pilot or observer with the statement that he was not to be employed other than as a pilot or observer without reference to the Air Ministry. Early in 1942 he was transferred to Canada for further training in Moncton, New Brunswick, Ontario. He came back from Canada on the Queen Mary which was being used as a troop ship. By April of that year he was classed as being an observer. In December ‘42 he was at Air Navigation School. And in April 2nd 1943 he was undertaking ground instrument training and map reading in Tiger Moths and due for the first flight today. A letter sent by mum to his younger sister on the 8th of July 1943 said that Reg is stationed fourteen miles away and is using his bike to get home. From September that year he had completed his training and was changing stations mainly in the east of the country. He spent some time at Doncaster which was a Conversion Unit for Halifax and Lancaster bombers. On the 12th of November he was at 103 squadron. A navigator. Operational flying. And the same month he was posted to Elsham Wolds in Lincolnshire. On the 15th of December he sent what was to be his last letter to his younger sister to tell her that he had been shopping in Scunthorpe for Christmas presents for his nieces and that he was due for leave on the 22nd of December. He obviously had leave to visit mum and I, still in the nursing home as a letter from, from my mother to the same sister says he had visited us both and she had caught him giving surreptitious glances to Susan in her cot. He must also have registered my birth and I was given the names Susan Doreen. There had been an outbreak of influenza at the camp which he had had and recovered from. On the evening of the 16th December 1943 he was navigator in a scratch crew from both 103 and 576 Squadron flying in Lancaster JB670 of 103 Squadron which took off at 1637 hours for Berlin. There was low cloud that night and the crews at briefing had been told to circle the airport once and then peel away. Among the first flight to take off was Lancaster LN332 of 576 Squadron on their first operation. Soon afterwards they were followed by JB670. Eye witness accounts tell that as JB670 took off and climbed away LN332 appeared out of the cloud. The collision was inevitable and the machines crashed head on. This occurred just outside the village of Ulceby and wreckage fell over a wide area. So, aged twenty four, Betty was a widow with a newly born daughter. My aunt tells me that my mother was welcoming her cousin back from the army on leave when she heard the news and this has also been verified by the sister of a cousin who told me this several years ago as to how elated they were at having her brother home but having to also deal with the death of Reg. The family had expressed their wish that they could bury him locally but this was not allowed and he was laid to rest in a Commonwealth grave in Cambridge Cemetery. This was December and a very cold day. They had had to travel from Strafford by train and the family included Reg’s brother, his eldest and youngest sisters, my mother and her sister. They were in the cemetery grounds when someone shouted, ‘Elsham Wolds’s party,’ and they all gathered for the burial of six of the crew. I am told that my mother went to try to talk to one of the officers to try to gain more information but little was forthcoming. And as she said you had to take what was told you and you did not ask questions. It was only in the early 1990s that she read a letter in the Lincolnshire Life Journal from a gentleman in Australia asking for information on LN322 and the crash in which his brother died. They started to correspond and he acquired much more information which he then passed on to her. So at twenty four, Betty, a widow with a newly born daughter. I was christened at Christmas in the home of my grandparents by a close family friend who was a JP and local preacher. Carol, the female equivalent of Charles was included in my naming which I continue to use although it gets a bit awkward at times when I have to state the names that are on my birth certificate only. A white and blue rimmed china bowl was used which I still have in my family history box. We carried on living in the same house with mum becoming a nurse at Stafford hospital and me being looked after by my grandparents. A brass plaque was erected in Gnosall Methodist Church in memory of Reg and a cousin of my mother — the one she was greeting who was killed the following year in Northern France and is buried in Cannes. From what I’ve already related to you, you will remember that there were other RAF stations located not far from Gnosall. On Sunday evenings the men billeted there would come to the church and be offered refreshments by the congregation. I do not know the exact date when they first met but this is where mum met my stepfather. He was called Stanley Stubbins and came from Winterton in Lincolnshire. He had been born and brought up in this village and never left it except for his war service. His father was the local builder, joiner and undertaker. Romance blossomed and they were married on the 26th of May, 1945. The story goes that the photographer forgot to attend so they went on honeymoon, the bridal flowers were placed in the cellar and photos were taken when they got back. For a young man taking on a new family it must have been quite daunting. Again, my aunt tells me that my grandad received a letter from Stan’s parents stating that I would not be treated as other than one of theirs. This was true fortunately because on one of our first trips to Winterton I’m told I picked off heads of his prized tulips and threw them into the garden pond to float. We remained in Gnosall where the elder of my two half-sisters was born until Stan was demobbed and could find us accommodation in Winterton. When I was told that Stan was not my biological father I don’t know. He was very tolerant of the fact that Reg’s RAF cap lived in the wardrobe and he would say that Christmas was always a difficult time for mum. Ironically Winterton is only a few miles from Elsham Wolds. Remembrance services were held every year with flypasts by Lancasters which mum and I used to attend. She maintained contact with Reg’s family and consequently they came to visit us and we them on a regular basis. So I have thirteen cousins on Reg’s side and six on Stan’s side who come together on family occasions. They all held Stan in such high esteem that when he died in 1997 there was a large contingent of cousins plus aged parents who came to his funeral. My memories of Reg are all that have been told me in the past along with some tangible items that I kept in my family box. His bible that was given to him by Gnosall Sunday School on his volunteering for the RAF, his hat and medals. On the death of his youngest sister her daughter passed on to me the letters written by Reg during his time in the RAF. And I also have a copy of a letter sent to his second eldest sister which her daughter found in her handbag. From Stan I have my childhood, adolescence and adulthood to recall. As a family we loved him very much.
PL: That was just wonderful Sue. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you’d like to add yourself?
SC: Well, not just me there must have been thousands of others like me and maybe I’m the fortunate one in being able to sort of put this on to an actual archive. When I was relating only yesterday to somebody about the fact that my mother and father had given my aunt a brooch they said, ‘You must write it down.’ So this a bit more than writing down. It means a lot to me but to other people it may be more insignificant. I don’t know.
PL: Well, thank you very much indeed.
SC: It’s my pleasure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AChapmanSCD171014
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Susan Chapman
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
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00:14:00 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pam Locker
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-14
Description
An account of the resource
Susan Chapman talks about her father, Charles Reginald Jaques. Reg Jaques grew up in County Durham and to improve his prospects for employment he studied by the light of the streetlight. He secured a job with a local authority in Shropshire. He met and married Betty and they set up home. He volunteered to join the RAF. He trained as a navigator and became a father. His last letter was to his sister telling her he’d been Christmas shopping in Scunthorpe. The next day his aircraft took off from RAF Elsham Wolds. The aircraft that had taken off just before reappeared out of the cloud and the two aircraft collided.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Gnosall
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
103 Squadron
576 Squadron
aircrew
crash
final resting place
heirloom
killed in action
love and romance
memorial
mid-air collision
navigator
RAF Elsham Wolds
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3517/PWaughmanR1501.1.jpg
ea7d7d15f3b9f96826258b16ff6e1ae6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3517/AWaughmanR150803.1.mp3
4b20ad44c8f089eeec0544eae42cc539
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Waughman, Rusty
Russell Reay Waughman
Russell R Waughman
Russell Waughman
R R Waughman
R Waughman
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Russell Reay "Rusty" Waughman (1923 - 2023, 1499239 and 171904 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 101 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-01
2015-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Waughman, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RW: All wrote a little letter and signed it and sent it to the station commander who interviewed us and said, ‘This constitutes mutiny.’ So, with all our explanations of what went on he accepted that the fact that we’d been left off the draft and the corporal [?] corporal from West Kirby was actually charged for taking bribes to take, put people on, take people off drafts and put friends on. So, there we are. There we are. We’ve got no records, no kit, no nothing so we had to start again. So we didn’t do the, so we went and did our IT, initial training, again at Stratford on Avon which was rather nice, very fine. Nice place Stratford. I think I had my first girlfriend at Stratford. She was a very, she was a nice little girl. I often whatever happened to all these creatures looking back on all these times but there we are. We did our initial training again and from there of course we had to learn to start playing with aeroplanes and to start with we had to make sure that we were alright and worth sending overseas. We had to go to Codsall at Wolverhampton and er on a Tiger Moth just go solo. As soon as you got, went solo that was it finished until you were posted overseas and we went, went over to Canada on the Empire Training Scheme on the little ship called The Battery a converted Polish ship which was very comfortable, very nice. Very congested of course. And we landed at St John’s in Canada, down to Moncton which was the holding unit and then we travelled all across Canada on a public train to Calgary and the little aerodrome there was called Dewinton, which was just south of Calgary. We’d been there, back there since and Dewinton is now a suburb of Calgary which is incredible when you think of it. And that was nice and we were learning to fly on Tiger Moths and the Stearman. The Americans, the Boeing people had sent up sixty Stearman to the air force for people to learn to fly on. So we trained on both the Stearman and Tiger Moths and of course having finished the course I was a bit slow learning so I was, I think they were a little concerned about what the state of flying was. I was, I’ve always been a slow learner and I had a wash out check with the CGI on the station who very kindly allowed me to carry on and really from that time I never really looked back. It was really quite remarkable. And for some reason, I don’t know why, looking back I don’t know why they ever asked it but they said, ‘What do you want to become? What do you want to join? Fighter Command or Bomber Command?’ And you can imagine about ninety nine percent of us said Fighter Command so I was sent to Bomber Command which meant going down, back down on to the prairies to Medicine Hat and Moose Jaw learning to fly on the Airspeed Oxford and we had great times there. One thing we learned there which helped us later on in flying experience was the fact that we used to go off on a cross country with two pilots, no navigator, just one acting as pilot and one acting as navigator and switched over halfway through and we saw on a lake, which looked rather nice, we said, ‘Let’s low fly over this lake,’ which we weren’t allowed to do of course, which we did. Little did we know that there were ducks on the lake which rose up and we clattered through these ducks. I ended up with a duck wrapped around my face. We had six duck in the aircraft. Fortunately, they ended up in the engines nacelles, they didn’t damage the engines and of course when we got back we had a right old rocket from the, from the boss but the fact that we got the aircraft back between us and landed they allowed us to carry on. But I had to go to the dentist the next day on camp and the dentist said, ‘Oh you were the bloke who flew that aeroplane.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We had duck for dinner.’ And then I sat back. And of course that was sort of an experience which helped us much, much later in life, in flying life, which was quite remarkable. And so of course having finished that course you took the little white flash out of your cap which was indicated that you were UT aircrew and took that out and you sewed on your wings in and then, oh, you were a pilot which was quite, which was quite remarkable. And of course you had to get back home so we forgot all about aeroplanes for quite a little while, travelled right back across Canada down to New York where we joined the Queen, Queen Elizabeth to come back home on the Queen Elizabeth and that was, wasn’t in convoy. We just pointed east and set off. It was quite, so new to us. We were so naïve and that was just a wonderful experience except on the Queen Elizabeth there were seventeen thousand others and we had a first class cabin along with eight other people which, you were sleeping in bunks with a chappie’s bottom above you rubbing on your nose, you know. But it was a wonderful experience. Two meals a day and it was wonderful. We lost two people overboard er but the boat didn’t stop they just threw life belts over and, poor souls. But there were Americans, nurses, Americans, Canadians, all coming back, back to the UK. Got back to Gourock up on the Clyde and then of course we had to find somewhere to go and be rehabilitated. We went first of all to Harrogate and then down to Whitley Bay and then back down to Oxford where we had a little rehab course on Oxfords just to get your hand back in again on Oxfords. That was at Kidlington, at Croughton, just outside Oxford. And the course, then of course you had to go to OTU Operational Training Unit and that was an amazing experience when we were flying the Vickers Wellington, the old Wimpy. When we got there of course you had to get a crew. You had a get a five man crew for the Wimpy and the system as I’m sure everybody knows was the fact that they got all the pilots, all the navigators, all the wireless operators a gunner and no engineer at the time and but the, and the navigator and put everybody into this big room and said, ‘Sort yourselves out into crews.’ And they used to go around and say, ‘I haven’t got a navigator. Are you a navigator? Can you fly? Do you want to fly with me?’ and this sort of system is amazing and the system worked. It really was incredible. And my crew had, you had no idea of the background of these people and my crew turned out to be the most wonderful collection of blokes and we flew really as a crew and not just a skipper and bods behind we just, and it worked out wonderfully well. Just to give an idea what they were my bomb aimer up front he was, had a little gypsy existence over in Manchester, a dapper little man, he used to come on operations with a crease in his trousers which was unheard of. My engineer, we had two engineers, I’ll relay about that a little bit when we come to flying. Les, my, I shan’t give his name because it so happened that he couldn’t cope on operations. He was just more or less a young lad working in an office. My navigator Alec, Alec Cowan, he was a real, he was a wonderful navigator, wonderful navigator. He lied about his age to join up. He joined up when he was sixteen and he was operational flying with us at eighteen. We didn’t know at the time. We didn’t find this out until sixty years later which was just as well. We were sitting in the pub at, at Lincoln at our reunion and we were saying, we had just had our eightieth birthdays and we said. ‘Oh we just had our, when’s your eightieth birthday Alec?’ And he said, ‘Well, it’s not for another two years yet.’ So that was the first time we, we found out what he was and he was just really more or less straight from school but he really was a most wonderful navigator. Taffy, a little wireless operator, he was a character. Oh, he was a mad little nut he was. We tried to find out where he was after the war and we discovered that his background was in Aberdare and his uncle had a pub and I think he was helping out in his uncle’s pub and I think he took that up for the rest of his life and I wouldn’t say he was a rebel, he was a wonderful character. His mischief, terribly mischievous bloke and we still keep in touch now. He’s a very, very close friend. A lovely little friend, Taffy. My engineer, I eventually had another engineer. A chap called Curly, Curly Ormerod and he was on the situation where he didn’t fly with his skipper who was shot down and killed and he didn’t fly that night he, because I had to get rid of my first engineer Curly was a spare engineer and he joined us and he was a, worked for the council in Oldham I think it was where he was a trainee engineer and just, only a young lad, he was twenty and my special duty operator because of the special duties he was my special duty operator, he was an Austin apprentice and he wanted to join the air force as a pilot but the waiting list for the pilot training then was quite long and he couldn’t wait that long so he volunteered to join as a gunner. We’ll explain a little more about Ted when we come to what they did in the aeroplane. Tommy, my mid upper gunner, he was a council worker in Rotherham and he was the old man of the crew. He was twenty six. The next one down was twenty. I was twenty at the time which was incredible when you think of our kids at twenty. You know, I’m sure if the same thing happened again now I’m sure the responses from the children, the young youth, would be the same but he was, he was married and he had a bit of leave on the station because his wife produced a baby. So, poor old Tommy, he had rather a tragic death after the war but still that Tommy. And my rear gunner, he was a Canadian. His father, an Englishman who had a funeral service, funeral service which he developed in Vancouver in America and Harry through his father’s English experience although he joined the RCAF he came over and joined the RAF as a Canadian. Again, these lads, you know although these vast different backgrounds we all gelled and we all worked together wonderfully well and what they did with us they kept us alive, you know and it really was wonderful. And I, myself, I couldn’t, I didn’t have any education at all. I went to school but because of my illnesses I went to school to start with at the age of five in Newcastle and then I became desperately ill and I was in bed for six months as a young teenager with TB so I couldn’t take place in sport or anything like that so when they came to doing exams when they did the scholarship in those days I went to school just before I was due to take the scholarship and of course I didn’t pass. So there I was. I was, I couldn’t go to a secondary school so I was sent to what they called a training school for the shipyards and it was a sort of engineering training school where at the age sixteen I started to learn about art and drawing, machine drawing and this sort of thing. It was, I enjoyed the school. It was nice but I had no exam, no exams at the end of it so when I, when I joined up I had no matric, no school cert, no exams at all. So how on earth I was ever passed. The only thing that helped I think when they were testing for the attestation was the fact that I became, I started off on the stage at the Newcastle Rep Theatre for a, for a year a bit while I got a position as a pupil surveyor at an architect surveyors office in Newcastle and there I used to do a lot of surveying work using angles and trade vectors and things which helped in the navigation exams and I think that helped me to pass the attestation exams in London. So there we are. There, you’ve got a crew. But we mentioned Ted, the special duty chap, Ted Manners, but he didn’t join the crew at OTU at all because we only had the five man crew and we didn’t know about, anything about special squadrons then of course and of course having finished at Operational Training Unit on Wimpies we were posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was at 1662 Conversion Unit at Blyton and of course with the demand for Lancaster aircraft and operational aircraft they had very few Lancasters available. The ones they had available were really the ones that weren’t fit for operational flying so we started to learn to fly four engine aircraft on Halifaxes, on ‘Halibags.’ A nice aeroplane to fly but not quite as amenable as the Lancaster from our experience later on but that was, that was nice, that was fine and of course on the station, on the same station they had what they called an LFS a Lancaster Finishing School so when we’d gone solo on the Halibag we went on to join this LFS, the Lancaster Finishing School and this was on Lancasters and they were a different aeroplane all together. It was a wonderful experience and experience we never expected to have in my life. But I had a little problem. Although my height was right I’ve got little short legs and when you’ve got twelve, four engines of twelve eighty horsepower all taking off with each engine, each propeller going around with three thousand revs you get a lot of torque, a lot of swing on take-off and with my little short legs I was having a hell of a job keeping these bloody black things straight down the runway on take-off so I was a little bit later finishing my training conversion than my friend Paul [Zaggy] who I’d trained with, been in parallel with for many, many months. And when we finished, when he’d finished his course he was posted to 101 squadron and when my turn came about two or three days later I asked the flight commander, ‘Can I go and join my friend Paul on 101 squadron because we’d been friends for a long, long time?’ And his response was, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘It’s a special duty squadron and we only send the best ones there.’ And I said Oh God that was a bit of a comedown. Anyway, a couple of days later he said, ‘Right, Waughman, 101 squadron. Off you go.’ And I said, ‘Well what’s this special duties thing?’ He said, ‘Oh you’ll find out when you get there.’ He didn’t know actually from what we found out later. And when we got to the squadron the day we arrived on the squadron my friend Paul had been killed the night before. And that, you suddenly begin to realise this is serious stuff, you know and you didn’t really think about it beforehand but then it became realistic. You did a couple of cross countries to get your hand in on the squadron experience and then we were given a special duty operator. An eighth member of the crew who spoke German, a German speaker operator and he was flying, was using this equipment called ABC. This ABC equipment started down on the south of England where there were fifteen stations with very fluent German speaking operators who could talk to the German night fighter controllers and jam their signals to their fighters, instructions to their fighters but it only had a range of a hundred and forty miles so that didn’t cover the deep penetration raids in to eastern Europe. So, Sydney Bufton, one of the air ministry boffins said well let’s put it in an aeroplane so they put, started putting them in. It took about three thousand hours to fit this equipment in to an aeroplane and quite an expense and this was allocated to 100 squadron. Now, 100 squadron were also having H2S which was a ground scanning radar and the power unit on the Lancaster mean you couldn’t cope with the ABC and the H2S so they chose the next squadron down which was 101 squadron. So 101 squadron became the special duty squadron flying this ABC and what they called the stuff on the ground station was called Jostle and it had a code name of Corona. Hence it became the Cigar and it was known as ground Cigar and of course when they got it stuck into an aeroplane it became ABC which was Airborne Cigar and Bufton wrote to the air ministry saying that in future correspondence all reference to Airborne Cigar aircraft will be known as ABC in future correspondence so hence 101 squadron became the ABC of the RAF which is remarkable. What Ted had, he had a little three inch cathode ray tube where he could pick up the frequency of the night fighter controllers and lock a little strobe on these, on these, on his screen, cover that with the aircraft’s, aircraft strobe, lock that on and he’d locked on to the frequency of the German night fighter controller’s instructions to the fighters. Having decided that on another little switch where there was German speaking because there were Poles, Czechs and things, once he’d decided that he pressed another little button which blasted engine noise out on that frequency and jammed the signals. And it was a wigwog noise woooooo oooo oooo and the Germans called that, they had a name for this and it was called dudelsack and I think it’s quite an appropriate little description ‘cause dudelsack means bagpipes. And so we had this ABC equipment which is wonderful stuff and this started operating in September, in ‘43. We didn’t join the squadron until November ‘43 and on the first raid the first, one of the first instructions that the special duty operator received from the German signals was, ‘Achtung. Achtung. English bastards coming.’ And that was one of the first instructions they had but sadly, one of our aircraft on that first raid was shot down and the Germans had the system right from the beginning but even the [telephones] people knew of the system but they couldn’t really work out all the technology of it at all so that was quite the thing. That was one of the things that added to the attrition rate on our squadron, the fact that the German night fighters could home on to our transmissions ‘cause we were using their frequencies so they could home on to us and the ABC aircraft were used on every major bombing raid that went out and the idea was that our aircraft were staggered every ten miles through the whole bomber stream. We acted as a normal bomber aircraft with a reduced bomb load, only slightly, well I suppose so I don’t think it ever happened actually but the equipment weighed something like [six or seven hundred pounds] plus another operator so it knocked our bomb load down a little bit and we had three enormous aerials transmitters on the aircraft. Two on the top and one under the nose and these were nearly seven foot long. It didn’t affect the aerodynamics of the aircraft whatsoever. We didn’t, we wouldn’t have realised they were there and we just there we were and our first raid, when we went off on our first raid my little engineer, there was something strange about him he didn’t seem really with it at all. Anyway, so we found we were getting in a bit of a mess and got in the way so, with experience I think we could have carried on but being so inexperienced we came back, we aborted the trip. So, we were, this was just at the very start in November of the Battle of Berlin and this was a trip to Berlin and the WingCo wasn’t too happy about it, WingCo Alexander. And our next operation a couple of nights later again was to Berlin and Les, my little engineer, nineteen year old, we had an engine on fire, a starboard outer went on fire and he just couldn’t do anything he just sat on the floor and just shiver and shake he couldn’t do anything, couldn’t do any of his work at all and I had to, the graviner button on the Lancaster is down on the right hand side of the instrument panel and I had to half get out of the seat to cover all this lot. He couldn’t do any of the fuel control systems at all. So, anyway when we got back I reported this to the wing commander who said, ‘Well you know I suppose you’ve done the right thing,’ and Les, this, my little engineer left the squadron that day, that afternoon. Whether he was made LMF which they usually do in those days we never did find out but he never should have been because he never refused to fly and this is what happened to a lot of Bomber Command aircrew who were literally shit scared. They really were and that was really a physical thing as well and these lads who knew what the conditions was never, they’d rather face the guns of Germany rather than have the stigma of LMF stamped on their documents and this LMF stamped on their documents followed them wherever they went afterwards and this information is kept by the record office and isn’t being released until 2035 so by that time none of the people will be alive to get any slur on their character. So we lost our little Les and this is when we got Curly who didn’t fly with Les the night he was shot down so we acquired Curly as an engineer. Wonderful character. Again, another great tease at the, he was a nice man though but we gelled as a crew and really in those days you did become slightly insular because you worked as a crew and trained as a crew and you played as a crew and I must admit we, we drank a lot. Eight pints a night wasn’t out of the way you know and this was part of the relaxation system for the, for the air force. Because of this Harris wrote to all station commanders, again we found out this much, much later, only fairly recently, the fact that a directive had been sent to the station commanders saying that no Bomber Command aircrew must be used on station duties unless it affected the running of the station and intimated that the relaxation activities must be condoned. Which, as far as that was concerned, was young lads full of testosterone was beer and women and it sounds a bit crude but the girls and boys on the station were really wonderful. They were really good companions. They knew what the system was and they complied and they were really lovely. We had one little girl who used to look after us in our little hut, in our little nissen hut which was, which was just a corrugated iron nissen hut and she was a little Welsh girl with a little doggie and she was known as the camp bicycle ‘cause everybody rode it, you know and these are the sort of the things that went but it wasn’t pornography it was just an accepted way of release of stress and one of my friends who I knew very well he used to say, ‘Well, thank God for sex. It’s kept me sane.’ And this was just a means of release of stress on the aircraft. And a lot of it did happen in Bomber Command sadly and it caused people to lose their lives which is rather a shame but you know those lads who flew and knowing their condition like that they were really the bravest of the brave, you know. They really were. Wonderful. And it kept Bomber Command going. But LMF, they didn’t have so many LMF. I think there weren’t a huge number cases of LMF but it was a rotten stigma and of course then having been on the on the, on the squadron with our ABC equipment we were involved very much with the German night fighter system and this was organised by a chap called, oh I’ve forgotten what they called him now, I’ll think of it in minute but he organised that the, all of eastern Europe, western Europe would be split in to five boxes. The Kammhuber. Kammhuber, the Kammhuber Line and this in each box each controller had control of their fighter system and they had a couple of systems there where they had, called Wilde Sau and Zahme Sau which is Wild Boar and Tame Boar and with the Wurzburg radar they could direct a fighter in to the bomber stream and nearly always ME109s and they were the Wild Boar who could go and find their own aircraft to attack and the Tame Boar was with Wurzburg and Freya aircraft systems whereby they could direct an aircraft almost on to an individual aircraft which was quite alarming as it turned out. We had experience of that and they developed a system called Lichtenstein whereby you see these aircraft with German aircraft they nearly all the ME109s with an array of aerials around the nose and they could actually home onto an individual aircraft and because of our ABC equipment we were very, very vulnerable. They could home on to the ABC equipment and the H2S and they developed the system called Naxos and SN2 which was very, very effective indeed and they could home directly on to aircraft and counter, counter measures for our broadcast so we had, they had a system where they could home on to our aircraft. We had a system where we would counter measure their counter measures, counter measure their receptions and they developed a [Frensburg] which counter measured our counter measures and we developed counter measures that would counter measured their counter measures and so on and the electronic wall we learned afterwards really was quite terrific but the German night fighter system was, really was very good. And they had with their, with their Wurzburg searchlights, radar controlled searchlights, radar controlled guns they had what they called predicted flak and predicted searchlights and when you were flying along you’d see this characteristic big blue searchlight appear which would wave backwards and forwards and as soon as it picked you up on the radar it flicked on to you and you were flying in their searchlights and all the searchlights roundabout would come on. You’d have perhaps forty, fifty, sixty searchlights flying with you and you were flying in daylight and of course the night fighters used to get in amongst you then but we had systems of flying. We flew the corkscrew pattern which flying a corkscrew pattern more or less like a horizontal corkscrew. It was bloody hard work when you’ve got a fully loaded aircraft. You lost a little bit of height doing it but it was really effective and the sad thing is when gunners, some gunners saw these things and gave instructions like say, ‘Dive starboard go’ and something like this some of the captains said, well, ‘Why?’ And of course by that time it was far too late but this corkscrew pattern did help enormously to evade the things and on the predicted flak it was quite a characteristic burst of flak. They usually put out a box system of flak where they just covered this area completely with anti-aircraft fire and you had to fly through this box of fire but they had this predicted flak whereby they could send up the shell which would burst in the characteristic sort of development and if you saw this behind you, if you were lucky enough, you knew this was predicted flak so, and you knew it’d take forty five seconds for the Germans to reload their guns, fire their shells and for the shell to burst so you turned off forty five degrees, and flew for about forty seconds then turned back ninety degrees and hope the next one burst behind you. This happened to us once and we nearly ended up in the system for twenty five, twenty minutes just doing this evasion all the time. Similarly with the searchlights, the searchlights I caused a bit of hilarity one night when we got back to debriefing saying that we were attacked by searchlights over Hanover but we were in searchlights for nearly half an hour trying to get out of them which, but with these sort of things happened on raids and so of course there we are we are flying on a squadron and it was daily life of being on the squadron. When you woke up in the morning usually late, after breakfast or early after lunch you went up to flights and on the wall you saw a battle order and could see your name on the battle order and all the battle order told you was A) you were flying, the crew you were flying with, the aircraft you were flying in, and the time of briefing, and the time of meal and when you saw that the first thing you did was go and change your underwear which is, which is, it really was. To say that you weren’t fearful, you know, it was very, it was very anxious, became very anxious because you had no idea where you were going. It was just you were on the battle order that night. So we used to go up to flights and check the aircraft, the serviceability of the aircraft, meet the ground crew, wonderful ground crew I had, and there you’d ask what the petrol load was and what the bomb load was and if you had lots of petrol, not so many bombs you knew you were going a long way. Vice versa if you had lots of bombs and not so much petrol you weren’t going so far so you had some idea what the thing was going to, what the raid was going to be about and then at briefing of course, on the wall, we were all in nissen huts by the way, little tin huts, on the wall they had a big map of Europe covered by a map, a curtain and when you all sat down and all got collected together they drew the curtain back and there was the red line which was a tape showing the route to and from the target and if it was a long distance target, Berlin, Munich, these groans used to go up right through the briefing and then you were briefed by the various section leaders, the met officer, the armament officer, navigation officer and there of course then you had to get out to the aircraft so we went in to the crew room, got our kit on and the girls in the parachute section, [collect your] parachute section, they were great. One little girl one day said, ‘Let me have your battle dress.’ And she took my battle dress off, took my wings off and sewed a lucky three penny piece under my wing. And these are the sort of things that went on. Wonderful characters. And you had a locker where you kept your kit in the locker and when you were flying the rear gunner had what they called a Sidcot suit which was an electrically heated suit but the rest of the crew you could really manage with just a thick jumper and battle dress. Some wore some form of overall but the costumes were really quite, quite ordinary. You had flying boots. We had, originally we had the brown fur lined flying boots and after that we had the escape boots, black escape boots, whereby they had a little knife concealed in the boot where you could cut the top off and leave a little, like a pair of shoes when you got shot down. There we are. We’ve got our kit, we’ve got our kit we’ve got to get out the aircraft so the crew buses arrived and we had to get out in to the, in to the aircraft but the atmosphere was quite electric, you know. They had sort of two sort or reactions. Some people were verbose and talked and over talked which was out of characteristic and some were just clammed up and just didn’t talk at all. So, when you got to out to the aircraft you just checked and went around and did a normal flight check for the aircraft, waiting for the signal to taxi out and of course once you got there, once you got in the aircraft there was no outside communication whatsoever ‘cause the Germans could pick up. In fact with their radar system they knew that the raid was going to take place and they knew the height you were going to fly at, they knew the course you were going to fly and the speed you were flying at but they didn’t know where you were going. So, we were waiting at the aircraft for the verilight to tell us to go and taxi out and of course the other little superstitions, you know the old tale of just a bit of luck you wee’d on the tail wheel. The lads used to wee on the tail wheel. We never did of course but er [laughs]. My rear gunner Harry, being stuck at the back he didn’t feel a part of this the bombing lark at all so he used to take a couple of empty beer bottles with him and when we were over the target his contribution to the bombing was to throw out a couple of empty beer bottles. This, this on one occasion when we were waiting to get on the aircraft the station commander, Group Captain King used to come around and just say, ‘Hello lads.’ Wished them all best of luck. Thinking of a man like that knowing, sending all these lads you know that a third of them aren’t going to come back, you know. What went through their mind must be, must be awful. Anyway, when the group captain saw Harry without his beer bottles Harry explained. ‘Oh I haven’t got my bloody beer bottles.’ He said, ‘Right. Get in the car.’ Dashed down to the mess, got a couple of beer bottles and drove him back again so Harry had them. Whether he drank them or threw them out full we never did find out but Harry had his beer bottles. I had a little, I wasn’t superstitious, touch wood but my cousin Mary, I’m very fond of Mary I think our parents were getting a little bit worried but Mary she gave me a silk scarf, a little RAF silk scarf which I wore on every operation I went on and I wore long johns, used to wear the long johns on the flying and I thought well if I change my long johns I’ll, you know, I’ll change my luck. We had two pairs. One for wearing and one for washing. I never had mine washed and I wore the same pair of long johns for thirty operations and the lads used to say, ‘Well you took them off and stood them up in your locker’ and you can imagine the odour on the aircraft with all this sort of thing going on must have been pretty awful. You didn’t notice it at the time. But another thing I had was my dad, one of the talismans for naval people was a caul and the caul is a sack a baby is born in and my dad was given one of these when he, when he first joined, when he started operations in the navy in the First World War and I was on leave just before I was joining the squadron. They knew I was going to go on an operational squadron and I was standing, I was standing by the stove in the kitchen and my dad came up and he wasn’t a very effusive man and he said, ‘Here’s this,’ and he gave me his caul in a little tin box which I’ve still got and that’s over a hundred years old and he said, ‘There you are. Good luck. I love you.’ And that was really a three hankie job, you know. A wonderful little man. But there we are I had my caul and I didn’t take it on operations but it kept me alive and these are the sort of superstitions you had but we weren’t on because of the job we were doing we weren’t allowed to take any sort of document, photographs or anything at all because of the very secret nature of our, with the work we doing. It was treated very, we weren’t allowed to take any photographs on the squadron at all. We did. And everything was kept very, we weren’t allowed to discuss it anywhere outside but A) our aircraft was parked at dispersal, we were W which was far end of dispersal just by a fence and the main road was just outside and I don’t know what guarding they had on the aircraft but anyway part of the secrecy thing was not having to take any documentation. When we got our sandwiches they were wrapped up in newspaper so they had a good, they could have had a good idea what was going on. So there we were, off on operations and operational flying became to start with you were so inexperienced that you didn’t really realise what was going on and the casualty rate in the first five operations was something like forty percent which was as high as that and it really was. It became quite an alarming thing. We didn’t realise at the time. We only found out this many years afterwards. So our squadron were very vulnerable and once we got past the five operations squadrons, five operations you really became quite fatalistic. You just, you were doing a job and accepted what you had to do and you expected you were going to die and it was quite a strange relationship that you had and you had a bit, a little bit of sick humour and I’m sure folk know of the grim reaper, the old skeletal figure with his scythe and with his scythe you got the chop and we used to say, when you were talking, standing by somebody, put your hand on his shoulder and you said, ‘Death put his bony hand on your shoulder and [live] chap I’m coming,’ you know and if you were in the mess and one of your comrades has been killed and gone you used to drink his health and you used to say, ‘Here’s to good old,’ so and so, ‘And here’s the next one to die.’ So this sort of atmosphere existed. Some people had premonitions you know and my mother, my mother was an old witch really she used to have dreams and things and she had a dream one night that things weren’t going to go right and she tried to contact the station to see what was going on and of course she couldn’t because the station was completely isolated and that was a night when we had an awful lot of trouble. But she had this idea. And one of the girls on the squadron one of the little WAAF officers, on the Nuremberg raid, said to her fiancé Jimmy [Batten] Smith she said, ‘You’ll be over the target about ten minutes past midnight.’ She said, ‘Right, I’ll set my alarm clock and I’ll think of you when you’re over the target.’ She woke up about 11 o’clock, half past ten, 11 o’clock and knew something wasn’t right and she switched on her light and listened and couldn’t find anything, anything about it at all and Jimmy, over the target, as soon as he left the target, just at the time, he was shot down and killed so he never got back. There’s another, our Flight Commander, Squadron Leader Robinson he was a wonderful, he had very, very rapid promotion because our previous flight commander was killed and he was promoted from flight lieutenant up to, straight up to squadron leader within a matter of weeks and he became our squadron commander er flight commander. Wonderful little man. And he had a rear gunner who was seconded from the American air force and this American chappie still had his brown overalls and American flying kit and they were in the mess and the lads were playing crib and poker and he, this Jones a chap called Jones, won the, won the kitty and I can see it now a little pile of ten shilling notes which he won which he when he picked it up he said, ‘Shan’t be needing this.’ And gave it all away. That night, on the raid, on the twenty ninth raid they were all killed. So whether they had these sort of premonitions, you know, it was quite remarkable and one of the bomb, when I came off leave one occasion we only had a short, a few days leave the bombing, the armament officer, only a young lad, he looked strange and I said, ‘Are you alright, Geoff?’ And he said, ‘Well, funny thing happened,’ an aircraft had crashed on take-off and hit part of the bomb dump and he jumped in his little wagon to go out and see what he could do out there and when he got on the perimeter track near where the bomb dump was there was a chap waiting and saying, ‘Don’t go down in there. They’re all dead.’ This chap was covered in blood and whatever. He said, ‘Don’t go down in there. They’re all dead.’ But he said, ‘I must.’ So when he went down to see the, what was going on he found the body of the man he’d been talking to on the perimeter track dead in the hut. So, and within a few weeks he was white haired. And these sorts of strange things happened you know it’s a, it’s a, you didn’t realise at the time all the significance of all these things but there we are. One of the things that happened, on one of the early raids when we went and poor old Bomber Harris, he didn’t like the idea at all but they developed what they called the transport plan whereby they were bombing railway martialling yards, [tank?] depots, station er station signal boxes and train stations to stop goods going down for the pre-invasion, for the German pre- invasion and so this was the transport plan and Harris didn’t like this but we went off on one raid to a place called Hasselt which was on the Belgian/German border, railway martialling yards and we got within about ten minutes of the target. This was all at night. This was all night flying of course in cloud, mainly in cloud and my engineer who was looking out the window said a very rude word, something about fornicating in hades and the next thing we knew this other aircraft hit us slap on the side and we just crashed into this, the two aircraft just crashed together and we were, he was slightly underneath us and his propellers cut through our bomb aimer’s compartment, just behind Norman’s feet. He was lying down ready to bomb. His mid upper, his canopy, the other aircraft canopy took off our starboard tyre, his turret, which was sticking up at the top of his aeroplane carved through our fuselage at the back, left a big hole in the back. We lost part of the tale plane. Lost all our electrics. Harry, the rear gunner was knocked unconscious, only temporary and we were a bit of a mess and thereby we, we were sitting, I didn’t see all this going on but the crew saw what was going on and when we hit this aircraft we were literally sitting on top of it and his propellers were churning through our little bits and pieces and we were in a bit of a mess and afterwards I was asked to write a little resume of what happened in the collision just for purely records sake and to give it a title of the most significant thing that happened, you remembered, on the trip and the most significant bit was sitting on top of this other aircraft with no control over your aircraft whatsoever. All the controls were just limp and wobbly. So, nothing. So, I called this the title of this thing, ‘It went limp in my hand,’ which was highly censored. I wasn’t allowed to do that. So this report went through and in consequence we had to do, coming back, we had to do a crash landing. We had Fido on the station and the Fido system was a sort of a little triangular system with the fuel pipe on the top and the gaps of about ten metre gaps within each section and unfortunately our dud wheel skidded between the gap and the thing and the other one bounced over the top of the pipes and just put a little dent in the top and there was a casualty that night sadly. We were skidding towards the control tower in the dark and we were getting very close to the control tower and all the staff on the control or most of the staff on the control tower and the little girls, came out to watch this idiot bend his aeroplane and as we were skidding towards it one of these girls jumped back and sprained her ankle and that was the only casualty that night but there were sort of talks of decorations and things but it never happened so I was very kindly given a green endorsement in my logbook and mentioned in despatches. That’s in the logbook now still but if it had been a red one it would have been an adverse report but a green one was a pat on the back sort of thing so that was, that was quite nice but there of course that aircraft was written off. As far as the squadron it was written off it had to be repaired and rebuilt but we discovered that two main longerons going along the back of the aircraft were badly damaged and had we to have taken evasive action no doubt the aircraft would have broken up and we realised that a lot of damage at the back because we had a big hole in the floor and I told Harry, the rear gunner, I said, ‘Harry, pick up your parachute, come up front just in case anything else happens.’ And he said, ‘No. I’ll stay here and keep a look out.’ And these are the characters that they were. Wonderful characters. And that wasn’t the only thing that Harry did. We went on one long trip and his electrically heated Sidcot suit failed. He never said a peep, never said a word and when we got back seven and a half, eight hours later getting out the aircraft they said. ‘Where’s Harry?’ ‘Oh he must still be there.’ So I popped into the aircraft, opened his door and there he was sitting with an icicle from his face mask as thick as my wrist down between his legs. He couldn’t move and he’d never said a peep he just kept on doing his job. He was in sick quarters for nearly three weeks and that affected him for the rest of his life. And this is what these poor lads got up to. It really was wonderful. I was so lucky with the lads I had as a crew. Wonderful and very conscientious lads. So there we are. We got back and of course the aircraft had to be taken away and we had to get a new aircraft. Our first aircraft was W with the squadron letters were SR and we had a W, W ABC all the way through. We had W, so we had W and there was a song of the day called. “Coming in on a wing and a prayer.” So I thought. ‘Oh lets,’ and there’s a P O Prune character so I painted on the front of the aircraft this P O Prune character with wings and “On a wing and a prayer” coming underneath and of course that was the one that we crash landed. That disappeared. That went. And we get a new aircraft almost immediately. Well, they got another aircraft almost immediately straight from MU and, ‘What are we going to put on the nose. What nose art were we going to have?’ And when we got out of dispersal to see the new aircraft Jock Steadman or Willy Steadman, Willy Steadman our Scottish in charge, NCO in charge of the aircraft he’d already painted on the aircraft Oor Wullie and Oor Wullie was the cartoon character from the Glasgow Sunday Post and that was the aircraft which gets all the publicity now and we did more operations in the other one than we did than we did in this one but they were wonderful aeroplanes to fly. Really, really were. So, anyway, there we are. We’ve got a new aeroplane and another operation we went on was to Hasselt which was another transport plant target whereby 5 group and 1 group were involved. A hundred and seventy three aircraft from each group. We were scattered all the way through the raid, just our squadron, so we were going to Hasselt which was French had been French military base which was the biggest military base in Europe at the time right on the edge of the village of Mailly and we were briefed to bomb very, very strictly. We didn’t want to kill anybody in the village so we had to be very precise, we were told to be very precise with our bombing so, and we were to assemble at a point just north of Mailly called Chalon whereby you waited there to get instructions from the master bomber, Cheshire who was the master bomber to go and bomb. He was really being very precise as well and he wasn’t satisfied with the marking so when the first group of a hundred and seventy three aircraft from 5 group arrived at Chalon, encircling the beacon, circling the area, it wasn’t a beacon as such but circling the area and being, the aircraft being delayed and delayed and delayed this second group caught up with the first group so there was something like nearly four hundred aircraft milling around waiting for instructions to go in and there just happened to be three German night fighter stations handy and they got in amongst us and it really was chaotic. There really were all sorts of awful things going on. The result of the raid was a very successful raid but the loss was over eleven percent. They sent just under four hundred aircraft and we lost forty two but there was only one aircraft crashed in the village where a French man were killed so that was compensation in a way. So when we were circling this beacon the RT discipline disappeared. You weren’t supposed to talk outside because the Germans knew where you were going, where you were coming from but the RT discipline just went that night and a voice came over the air to the pathfinders, ‘Pathfinders. For God’s sake pull your fingers out. I’m on fire. I’m being been shot at.’ And a very broad Australian voice came over the air, ‘If you’re going to die, die like a man.’ And this was the sort of thing that went on. The problem was that the American force [AFM?]were broadcasting on a similar frequency and it was the signals weren’t getting through as well as they ought to but anyway of course, when we got the order to go in and bomb it was just like Derby Day. All these aircraft ploughing down on the target. It was successful but we had a problem. We’d just dropped our bombs and we’d had an aircraft, something rattle us about with an updraft coming up and that. It was a bit rough but we’d just dropped our bombs and Norman, the bomb aimer, lying down in the front, he didn’t have time to say anything he just said, ‘Oh Christ’ and an aircraft blew up underneath us and turned us over. We were upside down and I can say I half rolled a Lanc [laughs]. So there we were, upside down at eight thousand feet and coming out you just couldn’t pull it out like that because the high speed stalled the aircraft so it took us a little while to come out and we were down to about a thousand feet by the time we sorted things out. Going very, very fast way beyond the [all up] speed of a Lancaster. We were doing nearly four hundred miles an hour. Four hundred knots as it was in those days and, but the aircraft just had scorch marks and a little bit of creaky stuff but there we are. Once you got sorted out you checked on the crew. ‘Alright, Harry?’ The rear gunner. ‘Yes skip.’ ‘Alright, Tommy?’ ‘Yes.’ Wireless op. ‘Alright, Taffy?’ And the response I got was, ‘Blood. Blood,’ and I thought, ‘Oh Christ, what’s happened?’ So I pulled the curtain back and there’s Taffy wiping his head and that’s all we knew and, ‘Oh God, what’s happened to Taffy,’ and Taffy, what happens when you’re flying at those, those temperatures, those heights, temperatures, the lowest temperature we had was minus forty seven and you had an elsan at the back of the aircraft which if you went and used that if you sat down on the elsan like that and you left a bit of your behind, behind ‘cause it was like you’d have an ice cube sticking on your fingers. You couldn’t do that so what the lads had they had a large [fuel] tin with the top cut off which they passed around the aircraft as a pee can and this pee can was kept down by the wireless operator which was the warmest place ‘cause it didn’t freeze when it was down there. And Taffy said now you can still see this pee can arriving with negative gravity and tipping all over him. When we were falling, coming out, recovering from the dive which we got in to and of course when you got back there was no question of going to get cleaned up. You had to go straight to be debriefed and of course he wasn’t exactly flavour of, flavour of the month which was, which was poor old Taffy. Still gets his leg pulled unmercifuly about that.
CB: I’m going to suggest we have a break.
RW: Yes fine.
CB: For a moment. So thank you very –
[pause]
CB: What it’s doing? We’re now recording again.
RW: Yeah.
CB: I’ve tried to do the playback but that didn’t work so we’re recording again now and I’m just hoping everything’s worked because it’s so good and I’m just looking at the numbers.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve come to the point where you were inverted.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Would you just like to describe before we go on to other things just how did you get the aircraft upright?
RW: Well -
CB: Because you can’t turn, roll it. Can you?
RW: Well we had to, to a certain extent with being upside down. You just imagine an aircraft being upside down you had to get it the right way up and the only thing you can do is turn it around so while we were plummeting, plummeting downwards and getting rather fast we sort of half rolled the thing out. Sort of almost like a very poor barrel roll that we flew. So, we were upside down and you turned over and came out sort of in that direction so you didn’t do a full roll. It was sort of almost like a half roll like almost like a half missing out the last bit of a barrel roll.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Coming out but because of the weight it was hard work but you didn’t think of it as hard, you didn’t think of it as work at the time you just sort of had to get out of it. Get it back.
CB: Yes, of course.
RW: Flying again but, and you just couldn’t pull the stick back and get the aircraft flying again because you could develop what they called a high speed stall cause the wing stalls at fourteen degrees and if you’re mushing down it increases the angle of attack very rapidly and you get what was called a high speed stall so this is where the training came in with these other flying, these little experiences we had in training. So, we just really tried to come, come out as gently as we possibly could. You certainly had to pull back on the stick to get control but trying not to mush it down so you really tried to fly it out which we did in the end, going very, very fast.
CB: You say we. Was the engineer helping you?
RW: Yes, well all he could do was pull the throttles back or push the throttles forward apart from being spread, spread across the floor. You know, the poor navigators instruments are all over the place. In that respect think of the navigators instruments all over the place my little wireless op oh he was a little terror and my navigator and he were chalk and cheese, vastly different characters and one occasion my navigator asked for a QDM from the wireless operator and Taffy said a very rude word telling him to go away and Alec looked back and found there was Taffy with his radio set, the old 1154 55 bits of the set on the floor trying to repair it and he couldn’t give him a QDM but he said [?] [laughs] so that was the atmosphere but they were a great crew, great crew. But there you are. We pulled ourselves out and we got ourselves out and we got back with having done the crash landing as I say. But the raid that I think affected us more than anything was the Nuremberg raid. The raid on Nuremberg. It was the raid that really should never have happened but we just discovered this afterwards reading books and things the fact that the, the uncertainty in Bomber Command headquarters about whether it should go on or shouldn’t go.
CB: It was to do with the fog, wasn’t it?
RW: Pardon?
CB: It was to do with the fog.
RW: Yeah. Yeah, well apparently there was a front coming up over Germany and the idea was that the route was going to be clear and the target was going to be er the route was going to be cloud covered and the target was going to be clear but the movement of the front wasn’t right and of course the, all the route was clear and the cloud over the target and the winds were wrong, all wrong.
CB: Oh.
RW: And all the hundred odd mile winds and this sort of thing were going on and nearly all in the wrong direction. Even the pathfinders, even the wind finders didn’t get the right places for the right system for the wind and so some of the pathfinders were marking Schweinfurt and different targets and Alec, my navigator, who was insistent on being a very precise little man he got us to the target and we actually flew to the target but by the time we were flying out the operation was delayed. Put back, put back and put back twice. So, we were going to bomb about five past twelve sort of thing like this. And we went off, a little bit in daylight taking off and we got, when we got to the French German border we’d seen sixteen aircraft shot down and to do what you used to do you used to report this to the navigator and he’d log it so they could get a record of where the aircraft went down and when he got to sixteen Alec said, ‘I don’t want to hear any more.’ So, we didn’t tell him anymore but we saw no end of stuff and coming across we were supposed to come south of the Ruhr which we did but a lot of people went straight over the top of the Ruhr and the carnage there. And just on the controversial long leg, what they called the long leg which was from the French from France right across to northern, north of the target, north of Nuremberg there was a two hundred and sixty five mile leg which was unusual ‘cause you usually had diversions and that sort of thing and it just so happened that there were two German night fighter beacons on the route Ider and Otto and it just so happened that their night fighters were assembling at the beacons all at the right time for them. So, there we were, we were ploughing along. We were very, very fortunate. We managed to keep out of trouble. We did have trouble but nothing drastic so we carried on and what we saw over the beacons was quite considerable. Lots of aircraft being shot at. We could see the tracers, German tracers going on, and this was a raid where the Germans first used the system called schragemusik whereby instead of having guns firing directly at the rear gunner they knew that there was no ventral armament on the Lancaster at all so this very astute German chap said, ‘Well, let’s have the guns pointing upwards,’ so they had two 20mm cannons pointing up, about sixty degrees. So, they used to fly underneath you and you knew nothing. You didn’t know they were there at all until the shells started to fly past. We, we were lucky. On one occasion we saw the shells coming upwards to us just on our starboard side so we managed to take evasive action but we didn’t know what it was, we didn’t know why they were coming up that way until many years later when we discovered they had this schragemusik and one German shot down forty two aircraft using that equipment. He did five in one night which was amazing so this added to the attrition rate of the raid at all. We were very, very fortunate. Alec, the navigation was spot on and we passed a target which we saw in the distance Schweinfurt which was being bombed which we didn’t know it was Schweinfurt then but we said, Alec said, ‘That can’t be right.’ So we carried on and actually arrived at Nuremberg which was cloud covered and we just, Norman had just happened to see a break in the little clouds so we bombed there. I think we bombed Nuremberg. We were certainly over Nuremberg. Whether we actually bombed Nuremberg you can’t really say because we couldn’t take a photograph because of the photoflood. It wouldn’t show anything on the photo apart from cloud but there was a massive explosion on our, on our left hand side which apparently somebody had hit a munition train just outside Nuremberg and this had this enormous explosion so we knew something had happened. And of course we had to come back when it was a long leg. There was some fighter activity on the way back but it was such and the lads when they used to go on these raids the lads, I didn’t get involved but the lads used to have a kitty. They put some pennies in this kitty and the ones who guessed the most number of aircraft shot down or most accurate number of aircraft shot down got the kitty and Curly my engineer got it that night because he said a hundred. He estimated a hundred and when we got back for debriefing the intelligence people were very sceptical about the thing. Oh it couldn’t have happened no its near going to happen but when our squadron records came in we sent twenty six aircraft that night and we lost seven which was nearly a third of the squadron that night. Sixty people, you know, all gone that night and it left it was really strange. It was. We were like zombies, you know. We just walked around. Not upset. Just mind blown and we went back we couldn’t sleep. We just walked around until daylight and the squadron didn’t operate for a little while after that. But what happened with the, when we got back used to go for a flying meal when we, when we got back and when we got back to the mess there were no waitresses there at all. All the meals were left on the counter and a little notice on the wall saying, ‘Please help yourselves.’ And all these girls had gone into the restroom and they were crying their eyes out ‘cause of the losses on the squadron. You know, they really felt the effect of that. Moreso than we did in many respects. Norman, my bomb aimer, who was always girl mad for the ladies wanted to go and console them but the WAAF officers said. ‘No. Leave them to it.’ And so we had to help ourselves to the meal and this was the atmospheres they had on the squadrons you know. The thoughts of the people working. When you think of a squadron where you’ve got something like anything a hundred and eighty, two hundred aircrew you’ve got something like two thousand, two and a half thousand ground staff who without them we couldn’t have kept flying, you know. So they, and they don’t get the credit that they justly deserve and our ground crew were wonderful. Little Willy [Severn] and Nobby Burke and they were part of the aircraft, they were part of the aircrew and I kept in touch with them for many, many years until he died just a few years ago at the age of ninety seven.
CB: Really.
RW: Lived up in Glasgow and Perth, near Perth and when I visited him and his lovely wife Annie he used to sit in his room all by himself just looking out the window and saying, ‘Aye. Och aye. Aye. Och aye,’ and remembering all the things that were going on. We were very, very fortunate on the squadron he was on the squadron for many, many months. He joined the squadron up at Holme on Spalding Moor and he only ever lost two aircraft so we so lucky to be with him. Mind you, we lost an aircraft for him which was, didn’t go down very well. So, but again, again these characters you’d come back with holes and bits missing and they’d be waiting for you when you got back and they’d get these things sorted out and repaired more or less for the, for the next night so, in all sorts of weathers. The, being a dispersed camp we didn’t have any hangars to work in. All the aircraft were stacked outside and, you know, in February ‘44 we had something like three foot of snow and sixteen foot snowdrifts and the station was cut off completely and these lads were working on the aircraft changing plugs, doing servicing on the aircraft. They worked, Willy said they worked in pairs. When one was working and his hands got frozen he went and warmed up. Another chap took over so they were working outside in all these sorts of conditions.
CB: There were hangars but they couldn’t put the aircraft in was it?
RW: Well, there were hangars when they had major things to do. Engine changes -
CB: Right.
RW: And these sort of things. They would take them in for major servicing. [Eight star] servicing, for a major servicing but apart from that they were just kept outside in the cold and the wet and in the war it could be anything.
CB: I’m going to stop there again because we are going to have a cup of tea.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Thank you.
RW: Oh lovely.
[pause]
CB: Right, so we’re back on again now.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And we’re just doing the -
RW: You finished the -
CB: Rerun of the Mailly but I think it’s useful because I’ve heard this, somebody mentioned before.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Of the attrition -
RW: Yeah.
CB: And because of the milling around -
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So why was it that the marking was so delayed causing the traffic jam?
RW: Well the again Cheshire was a brilliant pilot and a brilliant pathfinder and he was a perfectionist and again, forgive me if I’ve mentioned but the briefing that we had as the ordinary aircrew main force was to be very precise with the bombing because we didn’t want to hit any of the village. The village next door to the target. And he was being the same and he wasn’t satisfied with the markers that were going down and he said, ‘Well, don’t come in. We’re remarking.’ So he was re-marking the target to get in to the correct position for, for the [Mailly] raid and because of this it was delaying. It was, saying delayed you’re only talking about minutes. You’re not talking about hours, you know, but five minutes, ten minutes. An awful lot can happen in five, ten minutes and he was waiting until the markers got, really got them organised because there were two marking spots. One east and one west. One on the railway. One on the barracks because it was timed for midnight because this was the time when the people were coming back to their billets and were getting their, and they [wanted to kill the] troops.
CB: Yeah, of course.
RW: Troop concentrations so he was being as perfect as he possibly could and in consequence with the markers not being as accurate as he liked he stopped it and said we’ll remark again.
CB: Because it’s a French target?
RW: Because, well, not so much a French target. The target which was right next door to the French village.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And he didn’t want to kill -
CB: That’s what I meant. Yes.
RW: Didn’t want to kill, bomb the village. So, we were briefed and presumably they must have been briefed as well to be as perfect as they possibly could on their marking so as not to kill French people.
CB: Course.
RW: So this, and this came to light too, many, many years later here, by a little girl who was doing her degree at the Sorbonne in Paris relating to British and American efforts during the war and she came here and interviewed me here and stopped here for quite a little while and had a little chat about the Mailly raid and this sort of thing and she was quite concerned, you know. She was only what twenty, twenty one year old but she was only concerned about the fact that that attitude was taken to stop people, French people being killed. She got a first degree anyway which was rather nice.
CB: You obviously briefed her well.
RW: Yes, we still send Christmas cards to each other. I haven’t seen her for years and years and years. I wonder what she is doing now, whether she is married or what. But she was a nice little girl and I’ve got some pictures of her somewhere in there.
CB: Yeah.
RW: So, yes, so the, that was the result of the Mailly raid and the Nuremberg of course, raid, as well of course had although we’d had a lot of damage on other raids and quite traumatic things on other raids the Nuremberg raid left the biggest scar than any, mental scars was far, far greater than the physical scar and that really got sunk home when you realise what the attrition rates was. And the reports I think say there was ninety six, ninety seven aircraft shot down over the target but there were over a hundred wrecked completed so there must have been about a hundred and sixteen, a hundred and twenty aircraft written off altogether with all those, not all those aircrew but I think there was something like five hundred and sixty five, five hundred and five hundred and fifty aircrew killed that night, one night. The Nuremberg raid. And there were more aircrew killed on that one night then there was in the whole of the month of the Battle of Britain, which, you can’t compare the sort of flying that we were doing but the figures are quite remarkable when you think of what was going on. But being thickies as we were we knew it went on and we didn’t realise the implications of what was going on. We just got on with and had to do a job. But again, we had the trip, we had a little experience which was a trip to Munich. We were briefed for nine hours twenty five minutes petrol and we were given nine hours forty odd minutes petrol to fly on with instructions to land in the south of England if we had problems with getting back with the fuel consumption and it was again the weather wasn’t as forecast so we chugged off to Munich. Rather a long haul. A very long haul. Beautiful scenery over the Alps. We cross the Alps three times it was wonderful. Twice because it was twice the target and coming back we had problems. We lost part of a port wing, part of the leading edge of the port wing, we lost instruments, lost the pitot heads so that caused us little problems. Not exactly flying by the seat of our pants but -
CB: But you had no air speed indicator.
RW: So we were chugging back and as we say the leading edge of the port wing had disappeared somewhere and we’d had icing on the props. That was the amazing, we used to get icing on the propellers. And these were flying, the icing used to fly off and rattle against the side of the aircraft. It was just like flak for hitting the side of the aircraft and I’ve still got a bit of flak that came into my aeroplane. It’s on the table over there. Yes, so coming back it took a lot, lot longer than we anticipated and we were rather slow coming back to the extent that we were coming back over France in daylight and we were getting halfway across France and we saw these two little specks appearing flashing towards us and, ‘Oh Christ, what’s this going on?’ A couple of spitfires. They had been sent out to escort us back. So we were escorted back but with the engineers and navigation and fuel conservation we got back to Ludford having flown for ten and a quarter hours.
CB: Wow.
RW: But again the ground crew had that aircraft ready again for the next night which is, which is, what they get up to is wonderful. So they’re the sort of things that happened on raids. Another story, we came over Stettin one night. We lost two engines, two starboard engines. We managed to get one going half again so we came back from Stettin on two and a half engines.
CB: Was that flak damage?
RW: Yeah. Yeah. That was flak damage yes and when we got back Curly, he was a dreadful tease, he used to tease the WAAFs dreadfully and this poor little girl he teased her so much that when he was having his meal, operational meal she said, ‘I’m not going to serve you with your meal, cheeky bugger. I’m not going to serve your meal.’ He did get his meal of course but she wouldn’t serve him. And coming back off this trip we were so late we were, everybody, the committee of adjustment had been in and started to take our kit away. They didn’t think we were coming back but when we got back we got to the mess and this poor little kid was in tears, ‘Oh I shall never do that again.’ This was the atmosphere of these kids and girls. Wonderful. They were the sorts of things that happened. My last, very last operation was to again a transport plant target which was the original D-Day which was on the 4th 5th of June and like on the briefing we knew we were on the battle order but we had no idea where we were going and when we got out to the dispersal and asked what we were, what the petrol load and bomb load was Willy said, ‘Eeh,’ he said, ‘You’ve got full tanks and overloads and no bombs.’ And you were thinking, ‘Oh God. What’s going on? Are we going to Italy, Russia, whatever.’ No. What was happening we were flying a square circle around the invasion beaches giving false instructions to some of the shipping people imitate a convoy and also reporting on the fighter activity, German fighter activity to report back to help with the invasion and of course the invasion was put back twenty four hours because of the weather. So they took our overload tanks on, put a few bombs on board and we went off and we bombed Sangatte. Didn’t do a very good job obviously. So, that was our very last trip, Sangatte, and when we got back, because of the weather, very adverse weather we were diverted to Faldingworth which is only about thirty odd miles from Ludford, our base and we slept on a chair in the mess for the rest of the night and when we got up in the morning and having breakfast the station commander, Group Captain King arrived and he said, ‘Come on. I’m taking you back.’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got an aeroplane outside you know.’ And he said ‘You’re not touching another aircraft on the squadron. That was your last operation.’ So we just left the aircraft. How they got it back I don’t know but he took us back in his little hut, little, his little van. We went back and that was my last operation and mentioning our attrition rate on the squadron, in early 1944 our attrition rate was something like sixty two percent.
CB: Gee.
RW: Which was, you know, it’s unbelievable when you look.
CB: This is because they were targeted specifically.
RW: Yeah. Targeted. Very vulnerable. A) Because they could home onto our frequencies and B) Because we were on every bombing raid that went out. So there we are. The next morning I had to go and have a little interview with the station commander to give a pat on the back. He was a lovely chap Group Captain King. Curly, my engineer had finished because he’d done an operation with his previous crew he was finished the night before and he’d been out on the booze. Went down in to Ludford on the booze and when I had the interview with Group Captain King the following morning he said, ‘Your bloody crew.’ And, ‘Oh God. What’s going on?’ And he said, ‘Your engineer was down in the pub last night spouting about what he got up to and whatever and there just happened to be an intelligence officer there.’ And he just, no he was just pulling my leg really in a way but he said yes thank you very much for what you’ve done and I was given my green endorsement for the Mailly, for the raid where we had the mid-air collision and he had a curtain covering a chart on the wall which gave the crew statistics on the wall and he pulled the curtain back and he said, ‘There you are. You are the first crew that has finished as a crew for over six months’. Yeah.
CB: Amazing.
RW: And you didn’t even realise then. Appreciate what you -
CB: Yeah.
RW: What the attitude was but it really was remarkable and then of course I wasn’t allowed to touch a Lancaster again ever. Until 1977. Until the 101 squadron had a 60th anniversary of the formation of the squadron and they tried to get, I was asked. Martin Middlebrook was involved and he wrote a book and he was, he used to live not far away and then he was trying to get all of our crew together again and did I know where they were. And I had a few addresses so we managed to find 5 of us and we couldn’t find Taffy, could never find Taffy and we tried to find Taffy and we got in to contact with the people of his uncle who ran a pub and he wouldn’t tell us where he was and we assumed he was either in jail or in hospital but there, he’s still about but he never knew anything about it. But anyway, we had this meeting with five of my crew were there in 1977 in Waddington at 101. The Lancaster was there and at the dinner the previous night the PMC stood up and gave a little chat and said, ‘You’ve got the Lancaster here. It’s had an oil leak it needs an air test in the morning. We’ve got a crew here.’ So we flew in the Battle of Britain Lanc and did about a twenty, twenty five minute air test.
CB: Fantastic.
RW: In the Battle of Britain Lanc which was quite a thrill, quite a thrill.
CB: Amazing.
RW: And it’s wonderful that they’ve kept the thing going.
CB: Yes.
RW: It’s great. So after the war, I stayed in the air force after the war.
CB: Yes excuse me for interrupting but after the ops what did you do then because we’re not at the end of the war?
RW: Oh no. Yes. Yes.
CB: We’re still a year away.
RW: Yes. After the operations, yes normally you were, your crew tended to try and keep as much of the crew together and were posted away and most of the crew were posted to 28 OTU. And I was sent to 82 OTU. I never knew why or found out why. Typing error? Whatever. Anyway, I arrived at 82 OTU which was all Australian station and I was one of the very few Englishmen there as aircrew. One of the only aircrew there as an examiner, screen pilot, and they didn’t think much of this pommie bastard arrived in their midst and it wasn’t exactly a comfortable place to be but I’d only been there a couple of weeks when I had a bit of a problem, a symptom from the flying in the war. I had a perforated ulcer. Again, attributed to stress, whatever. So anyway, I had this haemorrhaging and I went sick, reported to the Australian doc, went sick and he didn’t think much of this whinging pommie bastard so medicine on duty. That was, that was, that was it. We just, and very shortly after that I was posted to Gamston where, which was a Wimpy OTU so I was flying in Wimpies there. Met my first fiancé there which was a lovely little WAAF in the camp. Audrey, Audrey Simms. Again, my luck held out, a lot of luck was involved on the squadron, tremendous lot of luck on the squadron and again my luck held out. My friend, Tommy Thompson, who’d been on operations, same as myself, screened and I was also the sports officer on the squadron and I had to do an air test as well and Tommy said, ‘Well you go and get the sports kit.’ On Wednesday afternoon the whole place shut down in those days for sport so I went to get the sports equipment and Tommy did my air test in a Wimpy and the Wimpy blew up and he was killed. Poor chap. Poor Tommy. And the only way we could recognise him when we found him was his ring on his finger. And he was a Geordie like myself and I was given the task of organising his funeral, went up to his funeral and because he didn’t get married during the war he got married very shortly after the end of his tour. He didn’t get married until after he’d finished his tour and his wife was expecting a baby, lived at Wallsend near Newcastle and of course I had to go to the funeral and there was this poor lass and it was rather sad. Yeah. So, these are the sort of things that happened and the luck you can achieve on these sort of things. So, anyway, because of my sins and flying I was due to go back on a second tour, supposedly on Mosquitoes, in early ‘45 but the attrition rate had dropped considerably at that time and there was a glut of aircrew coming though so they said, ‘Don’t come back on operations.’ So I was sent down to Lulsgate Bottom which was an instructor’s school. So I went down to the instructor’s school at Lulsgate Bottom which is now Bristol airport and I had a nice time down there learning to drink scrumpy which was, which was great. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely place down there. I enjoyed it very much. Again had little problems with the instructing. Flying with the instructor one night and the radial engine, the pot burst and the pistons were coming out through the through the canopy around the engine. So we had a little single engine landing there but that was fine. I ended up there and became an instructor. So the instructing I was sent to be a place called Desborough. I had the choice of going to Carlisle or Northampton so I chose Desborough and I was stationed there as a screen pilot and flying instructor, Wimpies. This story extends a little bit. A very good friend of mine who became my first fiancé her friend she was stationed, became stationed at Wyton, Cambridge and my friend and I used to go and visit her and he, Jock Murray, he was a married man. He had a girlfriend as well, a WAAF at Wyton so we used to go and stay at the George hotel at Huntingdon when she was there but sadly we were sitting on the banks of the river at Earith. I’d already bought the engagement ring and whatever and she said, ‘I’m sorry but that’s it’ and she went off with a married pilot on Wyton, pilot and that was it. I came back to Desborough rather tail, my tail between my legs sort of thing and my squadron commander, he knew what the situation, we were very good friends and he knew what was going on and one of the pilots who had been at Wyton on big stuff he was converting on to Dakotas and that’s what we were doing in Desborough and he came to Desborough to be converted on to Dakotas. He didn’t, I knew him but he didn’t know me and my flight commander, Lofty [Loader] he said, ‘You have him as a pupil.’ So I had this poor soul as a pupil. All the first details in the morning and all the last details at night. He complained to the boss and he said, ‘Nothing to do with me. Get on with it.’ But he was brilliant. He was a good pilot but he didn’t know anything about that at all. And again strange things happened at Desborough. When I was there another crew came through at, which er, yes this other crew came through whereby the pilot had a wireless operator who eventually joined the company I joined after, after the war as a wireless operator and I had to screen the crew on a cross country out over Wales. A claggy night. Not a very nice night at all and his skipper didn’t say, ‘I don’t think we ought to go. The weather.’ ‘Oh it’s all right,’ Well the weather we flew in the war we flew in all sorts of weather. They said, ‘Oh no it’s alright Alfie,’ So, off we went and coming back they asked to get a QDM and he couldn’t on his little set. He couldn’t get a QDM and fortunately I had been to the Empire Radio School and, and, and knew a little about electrics so I went back, got this bearing, give it to the skipper and when we let down there was Desborough the identification lights DE flashing, I said, ‘There you are. That’s how it’s done.’ And I had to give this wireless operator an adverse, not exactly an adverse report but not a very favourable one. He eventually became a director of the company I was working for and he didn’t, he didn’t, he didn’t like me very much at all because I was one of the lower minions in the works and he was a director of purchasing. Not a nice, not a very nice chap. Anyway, there we are so that was, that was little situation but Desborough from there I went and was posted to Transport Command, had to go into Transport Command and there I was flying Dakotas and doing mainly conversion work flying Dakotas. I had some very nice jobs to do and stationed at Oakington. This was in 1947 when I first went to work in Oakington and I was the flying wing training officer for four squadrons 10, 27, 30 and 46 squadrons and this was early ‘48 when the thought of the airlift came into being and this was quite an amazing situation because the squadron as I say had this four, the unit had the four squadrons on board and I was working with all the four squadrons. Then when you are going on the airlift all the aircrew had to be completely categorised and had to have a current incident rating so I was kept very, very busy. One night well one month one day I did something like ten and a half hours flying testing just to get them ready to go on the airlift. So, there we went and when we got them all, got them all off we, the WingCo said, ‘Right have a few days left, go on the airlift for a month and have a rest.’ So that was fine so I thought now do I go home and see my mum and dad or do I go and see my fiancé. I was getting married in October. And I said, ‘Hmmn I’ll go and see my fiancé,’ which I obviously did. Went back on the airlift and when I got to [Rumsdorf] which we were then I went to see the flight commander chappie in charge of the flying and I said, ‘Where do I go for briefing?’ And he said, ‘You don’t.’ He gave me a piece of, a sheet of A4, ten sheets of A4 with all the instructions on and said, ‘Go away and read those, inwardly digest. You’re flying in the morning.’ And that was it. That was it. And it was strange how the flying did, is it alright talking about the airlift?
CB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.
RW: Yeah, because this is forty, a long time after the war but there we are. How the airlift came about was the fact that the Russians had taken over Berlin and they wouldn’t allow any people into Berlin for about eight weeks. So nobody was going in and they really split Berlin in half. They took over the east sector but they had to keep the airlift going, had to keep the situation going because the embassies of the French, British and American embassies there so they had to keep flying going in. They couldn’t stop the flying but they could affect the roads. There were originally six corridors going in but the Russians said you don’t need six. So they cut out, cut the north one out and the south one out and the east one out so they only had three corridors going in. The Americans were doing the, the southern one and we were doing the north one and we all came out on the centre one. But when they started the airlift all this happened in a very, very short period of time. The Americans, a chap called Lucius Clay was in charge of the system flying then in Berlin and he called every possible aircraft back from the states, even from Alaska, to come down to [?] which was the southern part of Germany and, to organise the thing properly he asked a chap called [Tupper, Tupper?] who was in charge of the Burma hump flying over the hump in Burma and he was asked to organise that. The first trip he went on, this was the very, very beginning all, all the Americans were there first and they’d gone off he went off on one of these very first trips and when he got to, got to Berlin there they were going to land at Tempelhof. He found there were aircraft stacked from five hundred feet to five thousand feet and everybody, all the Americans, were clamouring like mad to get permission to land and there was very little organisation at all. Two aircraft, two of the American aircraft had crashed on the runway. One crashed on the runway and was being repaired, and went on the fire and the other crashed and gone over the end of the runway. Nobody was killed but [Tupper Tupper] realised what was going on. He sent all the aircraft back to base even with their loads and got landed himself at Gatow at er [Wunsdorf] and at Tempelhof, landed at Tempelhof and he wrote out orders and all regulations for all flying on the Berlin airlift. Each aircraft had a different speed, different height to fly and all, all went, all went off and when we were at [Wunsdorf] at the time and when you went off you flew to a beacon north of Ber, we flew to a beacon at [?] just north of Berlin where you, when you arrive there you gave instructions, or you were given instructions of how to land and what your load off and we flew in everything. Literally everything in to Berlin because when the Russians took over they closed their frontier and they closed the, all the rail, road and water transport into Berlin and there was something like two million two hundred thousand West Berliners with twenty seven days rations of everything they’d left and they’d taken the generators from the power stations away, they’d taken the gas and that was all rationed and these poor Berliners were left with twenty seven days of nothing. I was very fortunate. I gave a little talk to some aircrew at Leamington and one of the chaps brought along a German lady who had been a little girl, a young little at the time the Russians took over and she was, she spoke English quite well but a very, very strong German accent and she of course she was quite an elderly lady then and she said she and her elder sister, she was young teenager and her sister was seventeen, eighteen and they were walking through Berlin and the Russians came along, a group of Russians came along and they herded all the girls and women they could possibly find into this building. The older sister knew what was going to happen and she hid this young lady, was a young lady, hid her and all the rest were gang raped for the rest of the day and she said, she was telling me that her sister never ever spoke of that again. She couldn’t talk about it. There was something like two million women raped. Two thousand committed suicide. You know, and these figures you know and the Berliners were so appreciative of what we did. We literally flew in everything. Naughty story. When we were on taking a few coal fuel and flour everything in and when you got to the beacon as I say you had to call to get landing instructions and declare what your load was so you could be directed to the correct unloading bay when you landed and the Germans were doing this and they could turn an aircraft around in eight minutes you know. Incredible. So there we were we were going towards this beacon and I said to the wireless op cause I didn’t have a crew I had the nav leader and the signals and I said to Jacko, ‘Call up and get us instructions.’ So he gave instructions and they said, ‘What is your load?’ And he said, ‘Medical supplies. Mainly manhole covers,’ and they were all sanitary towels. It didn’t end there because when we landed we were directed to the heavy unloading bay and we weren’t exactly flavour of the month. We didn’t half get a rocket but there again when you were flying in there was no question of doing an overshoot and going around again. If you couldn’t land you just had to go back to base and start again.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And when you were there they had all your aircraft lined up. Your day was split into three eight hour shifts and you were doing as many raids, as many sorties as you could in eight hours and then you had the next 8 hours off and then you flew in the next 8 hours and this went on seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Day and night. There was only one day it never happened and that was through extensive fog. So, and when the aircraft were lined up the ground crew had to do a pre-flight test on every aircraft and part of their equipment the wireless operators, wireless, ground wireless operators were a pair of bellows and when they got on the aircraft they used the bellows to blow this, the flour and coal dust off the instruments so they could check them. So this was the sort of thing that was going on. When we were at [Rumsdorf] they also had the York there and the payload of the York was something like what fifteen thousand pounds and the Dakota’s about seven and a half and one of our skippers said, Flight Lieutenant Sheehan, he went off in the Dakota and he said, ‘It’s like a brick. It’s like flying a brick.’ And he had an awful job getting it off the ground, an awful job getting it there, an awful job landing it and when they landed it they found they’d put a York load on the Dakota so he was flying at double his all up weight.
CB: Gee.
RW: And it says a lot for the skipper and the aircraft you know.
CB: Absolutely.
RW: You know, these sort of things went on. Amazing. But that was a long time after, after the squadron. And on the squadron looking back and talking to people on the squadron about the squadron about the air force in general they said, ‘Well you know in our group, in one group we were losing seventy aircraft a month.’ Every Bomber Command station lost nine hundred aircrew. You know, it’s amazing the figures that went on like that and a gentleman did some statistics working out how it affected a hundred air crew and of the hundred aircrew fifty one were killed. Twelve were shot down and badly injured, five were badly injured so they couldn’t fly again, three were, so three were killed on landings back at base, twelve became prisoners of war and one escaped to come back and of the remaining of that hundred aircrew only twenty four remained. Nearly all with some medical problem afterwards which, is you know, is -, I had my share. The sort of things that happened they said personally the sort of things that happened to me afterwards apart from this ulcer which affected me for most of my life until I was here at Desborough, at er Kenilworth when I moved in here and one night I had a massive haemorrhage. I couldn’t get upstairs and the doc came and it was a peculiar system he had. I was not allowed food, I wasn’t allowed to get out of bed, I wasn’t allowed to do anything with work and I lived on an ounce of milk and water for six weeks. Couldn’t do anything and I remember sitting down where we are now sitting now watching the television, watching the cricket with the doctor, chatting about what was going on and it was amazing. In consequence I can eat anything, anything at all doesn’t bother me but alcohol doesn’t like me. I can drink it but I can enjoy it for about a week afterwards so you know I don’t drink very much now. I’ve had my share. But this is the sort of thing that happened and what still happens now. One operation we were on going on to the Ruhr and the Ruhr, the old Happy Valley and we were approaching the Ruhr and it really it looked deadly and the flak, there was an old saying, the flak was so thick you could get out and walk on it and it was like that searchlights, fighters going on and the first time I ever experienced terror and it was most peculiar. I’d heard about it but I’d never experienced it and I literally was shaking and really I couldn’t do what I was supposed to do so I dropped my seat so I couldn’t see outside and funnily enough I said a little prayer that I hadn’t said since I was about six years old. Mum and dad used to sit by the side of my bed and say this little prayer which ended up, ‘If I die before I wake I pray the lord my soul will take.’ Why I said it I don’t know, no idea but I said this little prayer and the terror disappeared and I raised my seat and I could just carry on. You’re still frightened of course but all the terror disappeared. And we had similar situations again afterwards but no terror so whether the power of prayer you know whether this happens or not. Some of the lads we used to take the mickey a bit ‘cause they used to kneel down by their beds and say their prayers or kneel down by the aircraft before they got on and said their prayers and thought they were a bit sissy until you had this sort of experience yourself and then you realise there’s something in it. It’s all, I’m sure it was all mental you know. Some of these sort of things happened. When I laid my head down on the pillow even now, not every, if I’ve been reading a books like some of the air force books and service books that come out now, if I’ve been reading these books about aeroplanes and I put my head down on the pillow I can see flak bursting and little sparks flying about. It doesn’t affect me. I’m fine. No problem at all and this sort of thing, you know, just reminds you of the old days and now talking about it so much now it’s almost like a myth, you know. As if you’re telling fairy stories. Did I really do it, you know but yes it does once you’ve experienced those sorts of things you never forget them. They’re always there. And some, some fixed more than others. We had one navigator who, they were badly shot up and some of the, a lot of the crew were injured. The aircraft was on fire and he got out of his seat to walk back to the, the aircraft was still flying, he walked to the back of the aircraft to jump out the back. No parachute. Some of the crew stopped him and said, ‘No. Don’t.’ He couldn’t talk. He couldn’t speak. He was just a zombie completely. Couldn’t speak and when he got back, they got back alright he never spoke. Never spoke at all. Went to the sick quarters for a couple of weeks. Never spoke, could understand a thing and he was sent to the service hospital at Matlock, the psychological hospital at Matlock and he was there for several, a couple of weeks and he never spoke until one of the nurses dropped an instruments in a tin tray and he woke up. He said, ‘Oh Christ, they’re on fire. They’re on fire.’ And he got his speech back again. He was invalided out of the service as you know unfit for flying. He was alright but that experience he had of these weeks of not talking you know and this is the sort of thing that happened to these sort of folks and, you know, when you think of the experiences you had and how bloody lucky you’d been all these whiles. And, your luck. Yes, I think you bought yourself your own luck to a certain extent. In my crew, were such that although vastly different characters, we were all great comrades and great friends. Great friends. And you know this helped enormously the operational flying, in my instructing and examining after the war when Oakington was closed down and all the four squadrons dispersed 30 squadron was posted to Abingdon and having, me being flying wing training, I thought I was out of a job. 30 squadron had taken over a VIP element from 24 squadron and for my sins I was posted to 30 squadron at Abingdon to become the training officer on 30 squadron and to get our qualifications, to get my, I had to go to Central Flying School to be examined and that was quite the thing. The fact that I had an instrument rating and the fact that I had done something like fifteen hundred hours instrument flying I was allocated a master green instrument rating and I became examiner and when I went down to the Central Flying School to become an examiner and a tester, an instructor, the instructor there, Flight Lieutenant Walker, a lovely man, when we finished the [CGI], said ‘There is a book. Take it away. Read the chapters about training and it’s all about what you learn about.’ And it was a book called the “Psychological Disorders of Flying Personnel” and the chapter on training illustrated the fact that you know even experienced people when being examined had a little bit of panic. It’s a bit of the white coat syndrome of the doctor with his stethoscope and things and you couldn’t really operate as you normally could and this was a chapter about that sort of thing. And this psychological business he gave me this book to take back home. And when I got back of course I used to examine all the crews but each crew had to be examined completely once a month. They had to do certain training exercises. One per month and the VIP pilots had to do the same as well but the VIP pilots were like a class apart. They wouldn’t have a, they insisted on having a separate crew room from us roughies and strange things happened with them. One occasion one of the pilots a chap called Van Reinfeld had to do a VIP trip the following day and he hadn’t done a little night, night flying exercise and I said, ‘Well it’s alright. I’ve got a spare navigator. You can do your little trip tonight. I’ll put you on early, you’ll be alright for tomorrow.’ And he said, ‘Well I can’t do it.’ He says, ‘My navigator has gone in to Abingdon and I don’t know where he is.’ I said, ‘I’ve got a spare navigator. It’s alright. It’s only a training trip. It’s not a VIP trip.’ And this chap, the replacement, a chap called Baxter who was a coloured boy wouldn’t fly with him. Refused to fly with him and I said, ‘Well you don’t, if you don’t fly with him you don’t get your trip tomorrow.’ He went to see Squadron Leader Reese the squadron commander and he said, ‘It’s nothing to do with me it’s to do with the training.’ And he went back and I said, ‘Well if you don’t do it. You don’t fly.’ And he went into Abingdon and scoured all the clubs and pubs, found his navigator, came back, flew late in the morning, early in the morning the next day and went off to do his trip the next day and that’s the sort of atmosphere they were. And the principal job of the Transport Command at 30 squadron were again, like all transport was glider towing and paratrooping and there was a big operation called Operation Longstop which was going on at Old Sarum and all the crews had to go down and join in the exercise and of course every pilot had to have an aeroplane. There wasn’t enough aeroplanes to go around and I was given an aeroplane and a pilot to fly with me who was a VIP pilot called [Ria.] He said, ‘I’m a VIP pilot. I don’t fly second dicky.’ And he wouldn’t fly. Refused to fly with me. Again, he saw the flight commander down at Old Sarum and the boss said. ‘Well if you don’t fly you don’t fly at all. Go back to base. Get back to base.’ He sent him back to base and these sort of characters they were an elite apart, you know. Brilliant fliers no doubt about it brilliant fliers and as I say we had to go down to Central Flying School to be examined and when you’re examined if anything went wrong and you didn’t fail any one part of the exercise two of the exams you had to write, reply a hundred percent. Safety and regulations, these sort of things and when you were, one of the exercises you had it do you were given all the met readings from various stations and you had to plot a synoptic chart and give a forecast for the next day, until midnight the next day, which I did and I said possibly get some rain by lunchtime tomorrow and whatever down the south of England and he called a Met man in and he said, ‘Oh that’s not going to happen. That’ll never happen.’ So I didn’t pass that exam so I had to go back, wait another month before I was going to be examined again. Blow me, the next day it started to rain so I rang up old Walker at Central Flying School and said, ‘Have you looked out the window?’ And he said, ‘You jammy bugger,’ he said, ‘I’ll put it in the post.’ So it was a great atmosphere. A wonderful atmosphere and 30 squadron had a wonderful atmosphere. Still has now. Still does wonderful work now. But the flying it left a great character in my life but I was married by then of course and we had a wonderful life with my wife in peacetime air force. Sadly, she became terribly ill when we were at Oakington and she started having terrible haemorrhages and this sort of thing and the, our local doc said, ‘You’d better take her home’ so we took her to her home in Desborough near Kettering and my mother who was a state certified midwife, she’d nursed all her life said, ‘You know the prognosis of this isn’t very great,’ you know and discovered that she had what they called a [? deformed] mole which is a pregnancy like a bunch of grapes and indicative of cancer. And they did scrapes they didn’t do scrapes in those days but they couldn’t find it and it was the cancer was deep seated in the womb and my mum said, you know ‘She can’t live very long.’ She was only about six months, nine months perhaps at the most so I resigned my commission to come out to look after her. Haven’t been, my last posting just about this the time this happened found was AOC far east to go VIP pilot, the AOC in the far east which I had to keep delaying, delaying, delaying because of Pat’s illness and eventually that was cancelled completely so I didn’t go. So, I resigned to come out on the condition that I renewed my qualifications every year and stayed on the reserve until I was, 1960 um and came out and poor old Pat died about ten months afterwards and with my lack of education I couldn’t get a grant to do any, I was hoping for a grant to go teaching but I couldn’t get a grant because I had no certificates or educational certificates. Fortunately, Pat, my wife’s father owned a factory. A packaging factory. So he said, ‘Come and work for me.’ So I went and worked in his factory on the marketing and sales. I can say for twenty seven years I travelled in cardboard boxes which was very kind of him. I got along very well with the old man. He was quite an eminent military man himself. Thinking of that sort of thing when I was at Abingdon, Oakington, I was going to get married and I was told I had to get permission to get married otherwise I wouldn’t get my marriage allowance ‘cause I was a little bit too young. So I was told I had to have an interview with the station commander which a chap called group captain [Byte Seagal] so I went and had an interview with him and my dad because of his health couldn’t do any serious work and he used to work for the Coop looking after the horses for the Coop stables so when we went for the interview with group captain [Byte Seagall], a peacetime group captain trying to get everything back to a peacetime protocol he said, ‘Who are you marrying?’ I said, ‘Well, Pat.’ ‘What does she do?’ And I said, ‘Well she does typing and bit of filing in an office.’ ‘Oh that’s interesting.’ ‘What does your father do?’ And I said, ‘He looks after horses.’ He said, ‘Newmarket?’ I said, ‘No. Coop.’ And this didn’t go down very well at all. And he said, ‘What about your father in law then?’ And I said, ‘Well he was colonel in chief of the Northamptonshire regiment. He got the MC in Gallipoli.’ ‘Ah now isn’t that interesting.’ I said. ‘My mother, my dad was in the navy. He got the DSM in the navy. My mother got the Royal Red Cross.’ ‘Now isn’t that interesting.’ Yes, I can get married. So I got permission to get married. And they were trying to get things back to peacetime protocol but after the war people like myself were asked to go up to Cranwell which was a training, a major training school then for aircrew and just to meet the people, not to meet, just to chat to the students and pupils and met one young man called, oh dear [pause] His dad was the president of the Nuremberg raids. Oh, what did they call him? Anyway, he was, he was his dad was this very eminent gentleman. Martin, [pause] oh dear, old age and memory don’t go very well together. Anyway, this gentleman he was on the Nuremberg trials. He organised the Nuremberg trials for the post war Germans and his son was on the Cranwell course and he eventually came down to 30 squadron and I said to him, you know, ‘What’s the last thing they taught you at Cranwell then?’ And they said, he said, ‘Don’t get associated with wartime commissioned officers.’ Because, in February ‘44 the directive came about saying all captains of heavy bombers had to be commissioned and my commissioning interview was with the accountant who gave me a cheque for ninety quid to go and buy a uniform with. Yeah. What do they call the chappie on the Nuremberg trials? Very eminent man. Very eminent barrister.
CB: Yeah. I can’t remember.
RW: Pardon?
CB: I can’t remember.
RW: No. Can’t remember. Anyway Martin didn’t like this system in the air force at all so he resigned and came out. But that was the sort of thing that was going on in those days and I was very, very fortunate to be able to have a job to work. I stayed and played with cardboard boxes. For two years I had to go to Marshals and be re-examined for, just to keep your hand in that all it was part of the condition for resigning. I did that for two years and the first time I went the instructor there said. ‘Well go on and do the exams and, what did you do?’ I told him what I did. ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Bugger it. Go on. Take a little chipmunk and take off. So I used to fly over Desborough and around the school where I was teaching and [laughs] no that, and I started learning, I taught myself aerobatics because the transport flying which is dead straight and level sort of stuff and I’d never flown aerobatics at all apart from slow rolling the Lancaster. It was great fun. Great fun. But they only did that for two years because they said it’s getting expensive and we’ve got squirty things now and so -
CB: Yeah.
RW: Just keep on the register.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And I was in the reserve until 1960 so really I had a wonderful career.
CB: Yeah, brilliant.
RW: Wonderful -
CB: Can I -
RW: Experiences I’ll never be forgetting and played an awful lot of luck and met some wonderful people and wonderful friends and with my crew when the squadron formed the association from flying together in 1977 the squadron chappie called Goodliffe formed the squadron association and from then on we found all eight of my crew and all eight of us used to meet every year.
CB: Fantastic.
RW: Until 1990 when we all met at Ludford in 1990 and the Coningsby, the Battle of Britain Flight said, ‘Would you come down and do a little exercise down here with a full crew.’ And Tommy, my mid upper gunner, wouldn’t go so we never went and a couple of months later he died so whether he had some sort of premonition, you know.
CB: Extraordinary.
RW: But anyway nevertheless all 7 of used to meet until, and then the rear gunner dies and all eight of us, all six of us used to meet and a couple of years ago my special duty operator died so all five of us -
CB: All five.
RW: Are still round about and very, very different states of health and all creaking a bit. I was being very lucky. I had open heart surgery.
CB: Oh, did you really?
RW: It was only three years ago and got a zip fastener up the front but if it hadn’t have been for again like the services, like with family if it hadn’t have been for family and my mum looking after me with diphtheria when I was a little boy and my daughters and family looking after me afterwards when, when I had when I had the operation for the heart I couldn’t walk, I couldn’t sleep, couldn’t eat and my daughter Catherine who is, she is now the ward manager sister at the coronary care unit at Warwick Hospital she took me into hospital on her day off and did an ECG and a blood test and the cardiologist just happened to be walking past and he said, ‘What are you doing here?’ You know, and he took the blood away and came back and he said your bloods alright but it’s not, you’re not going anywhere. Don’t go home. So within just over a week I’d had open heart surgery.
CB: Gee.
RW: And I was back home again.
CB: Amazing.
RW: Yeah, it’s amazing.
CB: I’m going to stop you there.
RW: Yes, that’s about it I think, Ok.
CB: Because we both need a – [pause] right we’re restarting again after a brief comfort break and the bits I just want to ask you about, Rusty is first of all the ranking system. So you went in as an aircraftsman second class.
RW: I went in as an AC2.
CB: And how did the promotion system work until you were –
RW: Yeah. Well, usually after about six months you were promoted an AC1 and then after another short period of time you became an LAC, leading aircraftman. And I was a leading aircraftman when I went and did my flying in Canada and it was from then after you’d finished and completed your training successfully that was when you were ordered your flying brevvy and you became whatever grant, whatever grade you were going in to. Fortunately, and with a lot of luck involved I became a pilot. And having, became a sergeant pilot. Some, about three or four of the course that we were on we lost about forty percent of the course on washouts. You know, it was incredible because the training was very, very precise. I must say it was very, very good. Looking back it was remarkable. So there I was a sergeant pilot and promotion as an NCO was roughly six months and you got an increase and promotions so by the time I was, got on the squadron I was a sergeant pilot and then I very soon became a flight sergeant pilot and that was in ’43. End of ’43. And in early ‘44 the directive came from the air ministry that all captains of heavy bombers had to be commissioned so I was given the cheque for ninety quid by the accountant and told to go and buy a uniform so there was no formal interview at all. It was just a thing that happened. In consequence, the social class, in a sense, disappeared because there were people commissioned from training and they tended to be a little bit elitist and some of the crews had done previous tours and tended to be all commissioned and usually flight lieutenants and all this sort of thing so they were nearly all a little bit aloof but we were just the roughs. Not like the pathfinders. Gibson and the pathfinder force really didn’t socialise with the NCOs at all. Didn’t speak to them, didn’t talk to them but it wasn’t like that on the squadron. Really, apart from doing your job you were all the same. And the, the, our WingCo was a wonderful man in that respect. He knew everybody’s name on the squadron. Ground crew and air crew. Wonderful man. Old Alexander. Wingco Alexander.
CB: What sort of age was he?
RW: He, he’d be getting on about. He’d be early 30s I think [laughs] so. He died not such a long time ago. A little story about Wingco Alexander which, of course, a little bit about the war. His batman, Ward, a little chap called Ward turned out to be a homosexual and he was sacked from the service because in those days homosexuality was virtually a crime and he was sacked from the service and when I used to go home on leave and my brother was being in the army my mum was nursing a very eminent north country barrister called Lambert, Pop Lambert. Mum used to, got the job to nurse him because she could swear as much to him as he swore at her when she put him to bed and he used to love my, my brother and I and my mum to go down and have dinner with him and it was finger bowls and butlers and things like this so it really was quite out of our class altogether and when we were sitting down having dinner this night and the butler came in with the finger bowls and he looked at me and said, ‘Hello Waughman.’ And I said, ‘My God. Ward. What are you doing here? You were Alexander’s batman.’ And that went on, he went out and Pop said, ‘How the hell do you know him?’ And I said, ‘He was our WingCo’s batman. He was sacked because he was homosexual.’ And the poor soul. Pop gave him the sack a week later. He just wouldn’t have him around and this was the attitude about homosexuality -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
RW: In those days. The lads used to go out queer bashing. You know.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah. There was no gay business in those days at all, sort of thing. But that’s the sort of thing that happened. So, anyway, I was flying, became pilot officer and on the squadron I became towards the end of my tour I got promotion to flying officer and ended my tour as a flying officer and subsequently with the jobs I got as the training officer, again it was timed promotion really in a way. I became a flight lieutenant and most of the screening and examining and training I did then was as a flight lieutenant until I was posted to Singapore and never got there, flying as a VIP pilot AOC Far East. I never got there. Had I, had I gone I would have been promoted to squadron leader. No. I would have got the rank of squadron leader. Which would be temporary acting unpaid. So when I left that job I reverted to my previous rank again so that would be a rank mainly because you were socialising with VIPs but that never came about. So whether I don’t think I would have advanced very far in the air force at that time because I was a Geordie like, you know from up north, a very uneducated man, and I don’t think I would have advanced too far in the service.
CB: Ok.
RW: Although I got on very, very well with the people.
CB: Yeah.
RW: It was great but I think the social side, the social class system would have meant that I’d perhaps have made wing commander but I don’t think I would have got any great senior rank. Again, partly that’s my thought. Whether it would have happened or not. My navigator, he was an educated lad and very good lad you see he lied about his age to join up, operational at eighteen. He stayed in the air force after the war, did very, very well indeed did all sorts of very important flying. He ended up as a squadron leader and stayed in the air force after the war and he was very well thought of in the service. Most of the other lads left the service. Except Taffy. He stayed in the service. He became, he stayed as a sergeant I think all his life and I think he drank his way through the service but er -
CB: And he was always on the ground.
RW: Always on the ground, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes he did, he did fly a second tour. Some of the crews did second tours. He was on the second tour and he was on the last bombing raid that went to the Nuremberg and the Buchenwald raids. And Manna, Operation Manna. Norman, my bomb aimer, he stayed in the air force. He stayed although he had some elevating jobs he never rose above the rank of flight lieutenant because he was out in Burma and he was on the squadron in Burma. This was very shortly after the end of the war and the war was still going on in Burma and he was duty officer one weekend and the Scotch troop was getting knocked about in the jungle so he laid on a strike which was successful and got back. I think they only lost a couple of blokes which was really remarkable. Got everything back and he had to see the CO the next day who said, ‘You don’t, you didn’t have the authority to lay that on’ and he was court martialled and in the, in the court martialling that was it you know but he went on and he eventually when he got back to the UK, got sent back to the UK and he didn’t have a job and he had a friend who knew somebody who knew somebody and he went to work down at, down in Halfpenny Green down Pershore way working on TSR2 and he did some work on TSR2 and then did an awful lot of flying in Buccaneers, err Buccaneers um Canberra’s flying all over America doing line over mapping and this sort of thing. Got himself an MBE. So Norman who now lives in the tax haven Andorra is MBE DFC AFC, yeah. But lovely guy.
CB: Ok so that’s a good intro thank you -
RW: Yeah.
CB: To the awards.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So how did that come about for you and for him as well? How many of the crew were decorated?
RW: Well the sad thing is I’ve still got it but thinking about the decorations for crews and that sort of thing I’ve still got a got a bit of a conscience about the DFC because at the end of the tour of operations nearly every skipper got a decoration and I got a DFC but the crew didn’t get anything and the crew were doing half the work. They kept me alive, they kept us all alive they were doing exactly the same job as I was doing, under the same circumstances. Same risks. The same with all the Bomber Command crew but none of them got a decoration. My engineer Curly did eventually get a DFM.
CB: On the second tour -
RW: But none of the -
CB: Was it?
RW: None of the crew got any recognition whatsoever I think what Harry did was the rear turret and think what rear gunners did sitting watching shells flying at you having a little 303 gun to fire back at a 20 millimetre shell you know um and the casualty rate for rear gunners was, really was something and there was a lot of decorations which should have been. We had one crew which were very, very badly knocked about and from what I gather afterwards the station commander recommended the skipper for a VC which, and the crew did all sorts of wonderful things the skipper was hit three times and all sorts of things went wrong and got the aircraft back but this was turned down and we gather that the reason was that he wasn’t just getting the crew and the aircraft back he was getting himself back as well. So five of the crew got CGMs that night so the decorations system I’m sure it’s the same in all the wars that a lot of people who deserved them didn’t get them because it was unknown. One, one situation whereby unless an action was seen by an officer it didn’t count.
CB: Right.
RW: So -
CB: So the Queens Gallantry Medal.
RW: Yeah.
CB: The CGM.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Was a pretty good award.
RW: Well it’s the next one down from the VC.
CB: Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. The whole crew got it.
RW: Yeah. Yeah. Five of the crew got it.
CB: Yeah.
RW: So you know the awards system obviously they have to have some rules and regulations, you know. I was told by, the by people afterwards after my crash landing getting the aircraft back the thought was the immediate award of the DFC but that didn’t come about.
CB: So when did it happen?
RW: That was in May, March
CB: When you came to the end of your tour.
RW: Oh, it was the end of the tour.
CB: Was it?
RW: Not at the time. Not immediately at the time. It wasn’t until anyway there we are. My DFC was given to me by the postman and there’s a nice little letter in there from King George saying I’m sorry, implying that he’s too busy too busy to see I’m sending it through the post but thank you very much. So, so that was given to me by the postman.
CB: Extraordinary.
RW: Subsequently, when I got I was very fortunate after the war I was awarded the MBE and -
CB: But you got the AFC. So what was that -
RW: I got the AFC.
CB: So what -
RW: I didn’t get the MBE I got the AFC.
CB: The AFC, yes.
RW: Yes, the AFC.
CB: So what was the circumstance of that?
RW: I’ve no idea. I’ve tried to find out but the only thing I’ve ever, people have been able to say meritorious service but I’ve no idea why. I think it was a brown nose job really you know, being in the right place at the right time. I can just imagine from what I’ve seen afterwards the air ministry would be issued so many medals to be issued to the command. Got down to group. Group allocated the medals out. Group was passed out to stations, stations allocated medals out, passed down to the squadrons and what was left for the squadron they had to find someone to give them to and I think I just happened to be at the right place at the right time. So, no reason why I -
CB: No specific event that you can -
RW: No specific event. Nothing -
CB: No.
RW: At all. No. So, it was again poor luck.
CB: What about this other man you talked about who’d been in your crew before who got DFC, AFC?
RW: Oh, Norman. The bomb aimer.
CB: Yes how did he get those?
RW: Well.
CB: Did he get the DFC at the end of the tour?
RW: Afterwards he, he -
CB: Was he commissioned by then?
RW: He eventually ended up on pathfinders.
CB: Oh right.
RW: Yeah, he did a second tour.
CB: Ahh.
RW: Didn’t do a full second tour but he did a lot of second tour on pathfinders and he got his DFC for that and he got his AFC for what he was doing in research down at Pershore down there and his MBE was for the work he did on TSR2 and the, and the work he was doing with the, with the Canberras.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah and Curly my engineer he eventually got the DFM just after -
CB: On his second tour.
RW: After he left us he got the DFM and he from a very lowly back, we’re all from very lowly backgrounds, working class backgrounds his son Paul was at grammar school and there was a thing, a big trip they were going to do, which he could do which would have affected his career quite considerably from the school and Curly couldn’t afford it so he sold his medal.
CB: Right.
RW: To pay for his son to go through school. His son ended up as a very eminent statistician broadcasting, writing articles, touring the world doing this sort of thing and he still brings Curly to the reunions.
CB: Oh does he? So he feels that’s good value.
RW: Yeah. Yes, Yeah but poor old Curly he missed his medal a lot and a chappie called [?] it’s in there he bought Curlys medal.
CB: Oh.
RW: And there you are. He bought Curly’s medal. He was a medal collector and he also involved with [?] he’s a Frenchman working, working with the [6th airborne div] on the invasion things and he bought Curly’s medal and through the squadron he found out that Curly was on the squadron cause he got in touch trying to find out who’s it was and he invited Curly over for several years, every year to get his medal. Well the first year well he couldn’t get his medals back, well he didn’t, he was allowed to wear it but he very kindly let him wear his medal and showed him where his medal was and that’s the sort of thing, the sort of the lads they were. But -
CB: Can I go back to a particular experience -
RW: Yes.
CB: You describe -
RW: Yes, certainly.
CB: And that was the collision.
RW: Yes.
CB: So you’re on top of another Lancaster.
RW: Yeah. Yes.
CB: What happened to that aircraft?
RW: Well I didn’t see it at all. ‘Cause I was -
CB: No.
RW: A little busy keeping flying but apparently his propellers, as I said, chopped through our, just behind the bomb aimer’s feet and the bombing compartment up front. His mid upper, his canopy over the cockpit carved through our wheels and tore the canopy off.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And his mid upper gunner, his mid-upper turret was torn off as well and the boys said they saw Taffy who was looking out of his little window saw the aircraft falling away with the canopy falling off and the aircraft falling to bits so you can’t imagine what happened to the crew in the cockpit and the mid upper gunner sitting on top of the aircraft and they saw the aircraft falling away with no parachutes coming out. Of course it disappeared in cloud.
CB: Ah.
RW: And we were two thousand feet and then they saw the explosion on the ground.
CB: Oh.
RW: They found out afterwards that it was another Lancaster.
CB: Right.
RW: And they were able to identify what Lancaster it was and they were all killed of course. Unfortunately. How lucky can you be?
CB: Yeah and none of your boys saw it coming because you hadn’t got any view of it of underneath.
RW: No. Well the engineer was standing at his little window on the starboard side said he just saw it as it appeared and he didn’t see it at all.
CB: So you were flying straight and level.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And this came up from underneath you.
RW: Yeah. Hit sort of sideways.
CB: Oh sideways.
RW: Sideways underneath.
CB: Which is why you can’t -
RW: Yeah and that’s why he cut across us and we sat on top of him. And that was, and you never thought about it you never thought about disaster at the time you were thinking preservation.
CB: No.
RW: And keeping the aircraft flying. We’ve got to fly. Yeah. Which fortunately it did.
CB: And a different question each of the crew has a different recollection of what was going on because they had different jobs.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You’ve already mentioned the danger of being the rear gunner.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How many times did your gunners shoot at other aircraft? Attacking aircraft in other words.
RW: In a way not as many as the attacks that we had because the idea was you didn’t use your guns unless you had to because it gave away your position so about what a half a dozen times, perhaps.
CB: Yeah.
RW: On one occasion we in the going over Germany we had [five] fighter attacks almost one after the other and if it hadn’t been for the diligence of the gunners we wouldn’t have escaped out of it, you know.
CB: You did corkscrews to get away from it.
RW: Corkscrewed out of it. And once you’ve started corkscrewing it’s no good, no point flying firing your guns.
CB: No.
RW: What did happen I was very fortunate I flew in both the, two of the aircraft who did the, the ton up aircraft who did over a hundred operations. One was in H How which was one of our squadron aircraft and the reason why I flew it was because our squadron was allocated the first two Rolls Royce turrets with the 2.5 guns in the back instead of the four 303s mainly we were the first one of the earliest ones to get it because of the attrition rate on the squadron we were given this the 2.5 and we were, WingCo asked us, well he didn’t ask us he told us to go on this operation and get into a position where the special duty operator could attract the fighter to us.
CB: Right.
RW: So we could try the guns out so we’re stooging along and there we are and Harry called up, he said, ‘Attack starboard quarter coming up.’ So we waited there and he got, when he got in the position where he pressed the guns, pressed the tits to fire the gun it didn’t operate. It didn’t go and we saw sparks flying past but fortunately there were lots of contrails around about so we nipped into the contrails and got rid, got corkscrewing and got rid of the fighter but when we got back the old boss was a bit concerned.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And he said, ‘We’ve got to have to find out what’s going on here,’ he said. And they discovered that they’d changed the anti-freeze grease on the guns and because of that we were told to go out the next night and try them out the next night. Which we did and unfortunately there were ten tenths cloud all over the place but we fired the guns and they worked alright. So that we flew and that was one of the reasons why we had the .5 guns. Because of the attrition rate on the squadron.
CB: Were they also on the mid upper?
RW: No. No, just the 2.5s in the mid upper gunner.
CB: Yeah.
RW: But again you don’t hear much about the mid upper gunners.
CB: No.
RW: But they were just as vulnerable as the others really. They were attacked from behind.
CB: They were an important lookout.
RW: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We were so lucky the diligence of my crew and we were good pals. It wasn’t the skipper sitting up front dictating things. They were telling you what to do.
CB: Yeah.
RW: You had to make the final decision obviously but you were just a crew.
CB: What was the, what was the signaller doing?
RW: [laughs] As little as possible [laughs] he was a wonderful character, very mischievous and he always swore he was going to come on operations drunk and towards one of our last operations we were in the crew room and we were talking and he crept up behind me and patted me on the shoulder [drunken talk imitation] and I turned around. He disappeared and I turned around and I said, ‘You bugger.’ And he’d left a couple of WAAFs standing behind me. [laughs] This is the sort of character he was.
CB: This is an eighteen year old lad was he?
RW: Nineteen.
CB: Nineteen.
RW: He was nineteen. No. He was twenty.
CB: Oh was he?
RW: Around then yeah and this was the sort of character he was and he used to get bearings when nobody else could and he when the skipper wanted a bearing, a particular bearing, he’d get one and there’s an emergency frequency which you had to keep off and he used to get right on the edge of this frequency and pick up bearings that you weren’t supposed to have.
CB: So in practical terms.
RW: Yes.
CB: He was giving bearings all the time.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Was he?
RW: Yeah and again very different from, very different from the navigator and mischievous little devil and I always remember one of the occasions which we remember very vividly was at Waddington after the war when we had our squadron reunion and we’d all had quite a lot to drink and we were getting back into our taxi and we were going to drop him off at his pub, the Wheatsheaf in Lincoln and on the way back he was relating in his very drunken manner how Norman, my bomb aimer lost his virginity to Luscious Lill in Grimsby and there was a policeman walking past the car and wanted to know why. This was the sort of character he was. He drank like a fish and on one occasion we went into Louth to have drink and they used to run a crew bus to run us into Louth and pick us up at half past eleven when the pubs closed and we were coming back and Taffy disappeared. He didn’t know where it was until we had a call from the police station saying we have a wireless operator from your station. A chap called Arndale. He’s in prison. And what he did, he had a skinful, gone down a lane to have a wee and there just happened to be a policeman there and half wee’d on the policeman so they took him in. We were on operations that, had to be on operations that night so I had to into Louth and pay ten shillings to bail him out from the police station to get him back. This was the sort of, wonderful characters and we used to go down the pub and drink enormously playing Moriarty and again, it was a form of relaxation.
CB: Yes sure.
RW: Getting rid of stress.
CB: Just a couple of things about the flying, excuse me.
RW: Yes that’s -
CB: What were you doing when you weren’t on operations?
RW: Well occasionally you did an air test. And perhaps did a little bit fighter affiliation practice being attacked by a fighter but generally your, you were completely relaxed to do whatever you wanted. There was no, no station duties whatsoever. You’d perhaps go up to flight and see what was going on with the others. Down the pub.
CB: But were you doing bombing practice in The Wash?
RW: Yes, there were -
CB: Were you doing circuits and bumps?
RW: I think, I think it was a place called Wainfleet.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Somewhere about The Wash where we used to do practice bombing little eleven and half pound practice bombs you know, practice bombs. Used to drop those.
CB: What height would you be flying when you dropped those?
RW: Oh about eight, ten thousand feet. You weren’t flying at twenty odd thousand feet.
CB: No.
RW: In those days and yes we used to do little air tests and things.
CB: Cross countries?
RW: Pardon?
CB: Cross country for navigation practice.
RW: Err not so much. You did those when you first got on the squadron and you, when you got the feel of the squadron you did a couple of cross countries then but after that no we didn’t have to do any cross countries at all and your relaxation was really resting and down the boozer, down the pub and I used to get into trouble. When we used to live in a nissen hut, little corrugated iron nissen hut and when the condensation, used to get the condensation inside used to run down the ridges and in the winter used to form icicles.
CB: Cause there’s no insulation.
RW: Yeah. No.
CB: No insulation.
RW: No insulation. No.
CB: No.
RW: And all we had was a pot stove in the middle of the room a little cylindrical pot stove which we used to go and try and rob people of their ration of fuel and burn furniture and all sorts of silly things and of course there were no ablutions or watering inside. The ablutions were outside in another hut with a concrete bench with taps on and that was all you had. It wasn’t a, Wimpy built the station in eighty days completely and there were a main roads. There was a main road into the station, a main road with flights, a perimeter track and a runway and that’s about it. And all the rest we were walking around on grass and mud as a matter of fact being called Ludford Magna they nicknamed the place as Mudford which is a -
CB: It was that bad was it?
RW: It was that bad.
CB: Right.
RW: But it was, basically apart from the stress of what was going on it was a happy station and this was reflected on the senior staff. The group captain and the WingCos in that place.
CB: But with the high attrition rate -
RW: Yeah.
CB: How, the senior officers would get shot down as well.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So how did the replacements work? Would it be somebody from the squadron already or would they post in a squadron leader or wing commander?
RW: I think it depended on who was available. Perhaps one of the flight commanders would be promoted or could be promoted and our flight commander, Squadron Leader Robinson he was a fortnight before he was a flight lieutenant but the flight commander was killed and with rapid promotion he is made squadron leader. So he became a squadron leader and it has happened that when a station commander who’d gone on operations, well WingCo Alexander a wonderful man, he used to come and take on a crew that had just arrive on the squadron. Take them on operations. So if there were lost they’d perhaps try and promote somebody on the squadron, from the flight to become station commander or bring somebody in with experience.
CB: Squadron commander you mean.
RW: Yes, squadron leader.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Bring in one of the senior officers to take over the station which didn’t happen on our lot. I know it did, it has happened but then rapid promotion for whoever is on the flight.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Which Robinson was. He became from the -
CB: Yeah. So -
RW: Yeah so this rapid promotion business was well deserved but Robinson became the, the flight commander when he was twenty five, twenty six. Yeah. Well, look at Gibson. He was twenty six, he was a group captain and the group -
CB: Yeah.
RW: Group captain in the service, yeah.
CB: Well did sometimes the station commanders fly on raids?
RW: Not the station commander. I know some of them did. Ours didn’t. Old Group Captain King. As far as we know he didn’t because we didn’t know everything that was going on but the Wing Commander Alexander who was in charge of all the flying as I say a new crew would come on the squadron and he’d take that squadron, take that crew that night. Normally, he did a second dicky trip which was an experienced to get experience on flying but when we started at the end, end of of ‘43 started the Battle of Berlin when the operations were called Gomorrah which was maximum effort err old Squadron Leader Robinson flight commander called me in and said. ‘Right you’re flying tonight.’ I didn’t get a second dicky trip but thinking of that sort of thing we used to have jinx. People in the squadron. Used to have WAAFs, you know, somebody little transport driver if they’d been out with this particular WAAF nearly everybody who’d been out with her got killed so she became a jinx, you know.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RW: And we became a jinxed crew.
CB: Yeah.
RW: We took three different pilots on experience operations and all of them were killed.
CB: Were they?
RW: So they wouldn’t send any more people with us.
CB: No.
RW: Yes. Which is remarkable. So these jinx things did happen.
CB: How many hours did you fly in your thirty by the time you’d finished your tour of thirty ops?
RW: Something like a hundred and eighty three. Something like that.
CB: On, on ops.
RW: On ops.
CB: Ok.
RW: Do you want to see my logbook?
CB: I do. Please.
RW: Yes. When –
CB: We’ll do that in a minute but overall how many by the time you left the RAF how many hours had you flown?
RW: Oh that’s getting on a bit. I did something like two and half thousand hours.
CB: Did you really?
RW: Which, when you compare people flying now are talking about thousands of hours. Thirty, forty, fifty thousand hours. No, two and a half thousand hours I ended up with which was quite a long bit for, for the -
CB: When the Canadian Lancaster came over last year -
RW: Yeah.
CB: The senior pilot there, he’s on airlines, had done twenty seven thousand five hundred -
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Hours.
RW: Yeah. Amazing, yeah.
CB: I’m going to stop there for a moment. Thank you.
[Pause]
CB: Right we’re starting again.
RW: Right from the beginning.
CB: And what I’d like to do is to ask Rusty just to talk about the time from his birth really to a point at West Kirby.
RW: Yeah thank you. Gosh. That’s, well at ninety two it’s a long story. No, it’s not really but I was very fortunate in my bringing up. I was born in a place called Shotley Bridge in County Durham and my dad worked as a handyman on a colliery owner’s estate and there I don’t know whether it was because of the situation or what was going on we lived in a tied cottage and I got diphtheria. I was, I had mucous diphtheria quite a chronic illness in those days and my mum who’d been a nurse in a military hospital nursed me at home with that and mum and dad had quite different careers. My dad was in the navy. He was orphaned as a boy, a two year old boy and brought up by an elder sister who when he got a bit older didn’t want them so he was put in the navy in 1905 as a boy entry and he went through and became a naval diver. And my mum who was a nurse in the, a sister, a matron, assistant matron at a military hospital in Darlington. Went through the war and got herself a Royal Red Cross, Associated Red Cross which was one down from the nursing VC which was a considerable award. She was a wonderful lady. And dad with his naval experience on the Q ships got himself a DFM and he is a leading seaman which was rather unusual in those days ‘cause not very many lower rank NCOs, he wasn’t even an NCO, got a decoration. He got a DFM.
CB: A DSM.
RW: Yes a DSM. DSM, yes.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Distinguished Service Medal and he, having been orphaned, he didn’t have a home to go to and my uncle Stanley was in the navy as well and he brought dad home on leave up north to Newcastle and there he met my mum and my auntie and he married my mum which is, which is lovely but because of his health he couldn’t do any really serious work and he used to do handyman work on the colliery owner’s estate and eventually when he moved in to Newcastle he used to do shift work looking after the stable and the horses for the Coop and in those day they had something like four hundred and sixty horses in the stables. And the nostalgic smell of all that leather was, when I used to go to night schools to try and get some education his stables were just a bit up the road and I used to go and meet him at, class would finish at 9 o’clock, the stables used to finish at half nine. I used to go and meet him at the stables and have a cup of tea by the big stove in the kit room. Smelled wonderfully. Wonderful. And then we had to walk home two and a half miles. No question of buses. Walk home. And dad was, really was a very quiet, unassuming man. Mum was a nurse all her life stayed nursing as her career all her life and she really saved my life on more than one occasion. Nursing me at home with diphtheria and typhoid and then the consequence because we, because we lived in, had no inside toilet, it was only a cold tap and no electricity, gas, paraffin lamps. We had communal toilets outside on The Green at the back I obviously picked up the typhoid from there so my mum went out and set them on fire and burned them down. So there we are. I came back to Newcastle and lived in the city for a wee while and then as a young teenager then I got TB, I had a TB [?] and that kept me down very much so and I was in a wheelchair when I was twelve so my mum nursed me at home with the TB and in consequence my health suffered to the extent that I wasn’t allowed to play sport, I wasn’t allowed to go swimming, couldn’t do all the exercises that my brother used to do and because of the family teeth which weren’t very good and because of the medication I was taking my teeth were in a very poor state so I had all my teeth out when I was sixteen and in those days they didn’t put teeth straight back in away again they waited until your gums got hard and then they put some china teeth in in those days. China porcelain things and that ruined my early love life that did. Mind you I didn’t know what girls were anyway. As far as I was concerned they were the ones that danced backwards, you know, so my upbringing in that respect was very, very sheltered. In consequence I started to go to school when I was about four and a half in Newcastle on the City Road but soon becoming ill I had to stop school and when I did go back to school I was just, just under eleven when you took the scholarship exam at twelve and of course I didn’t pass the scholarship and I didn’t, my brother went to a grammar school. I couldn’t go to a grammar school. I went to a school where you learnt ship working and work on the, work with the prospect of going perhaps in to the drawing offices of the shipyard. All the local stuff. But there again I wasn’t allowed to join the scouts or play sports and yet and yet my dad used to love watching football and we used to go to Newcastle United and watch the football there from an early age, from about eight, so I got quite a bit of fondness for Newcastle United. So, there we are I was a very sickly child with very little education and of course in those days to join the services at the age of eighteen you were called up and you were directed into any of the services that they needed. Even go down the mines and become a Bevan boy which I didn’t relish so I told mum and dad my friend he was going to join up at seventeen and have some sort of choice of services you went into and dad having been in the navy I said to mum and dad I said, ‘I’m going to volunteer and I’m going to join the navy. Volunteer to join the navy’ And they said, ‘Yeah. With your health record you’ll never get in.’ So off I went down to the recruiting centre which was a school and in the navy classroom there was the navy recruiting officer and my own doctor, Doctor Wright and I thought. ‘If I go in there I’ll never get in.’ So, I went next door and joined the air force. And really they were very hard up. This poor chap with no teeth and a heart murmur and varicose veins and covered in psoriasis and I think the air force must have been very, very hard up and much to my amazement after going to West Kirby to sign on where you were attested and signed on and joined the air force at seventeen. And poor old mum wept buckets her poor little lad, her poor little innocent lad going to play soldiers um and of course from then you had to go down to London to ACRC, St Johns Wood to be attestation and see what air crew you were going to be. When you were first signed up and joined up I was told I could train as air crew which was amazing ‘cause, in view of my health. Anyway after being signed on and got the kings shilling, not that I got a shilling but had to swear on the bible down to ACRC where you had attestation where you had medicals and exams. The medicals we used to have were in the Lords Cricket Ground and used to line up just with your underpants on and arms akimbo with your hands on your hips and they were at the side with the hypodermic syringe and pumping this stuff into you and the doc used to come and do what they called an FFI, free from infection, whereby you walked down the front, dropped your trousers and they used to go down and examine you with a little stick and the back, they went around the back, they went around the back and said bend over and made me wonder what on earth was going to happen but there you are if anyone collapsed when you were there or fainted there they just produced all the work on the ground. They just gave the injections on the ground. So we being, being at the Lords Cricket Ground you know and of course the result of that, much to my amazement, I was told I could train as a pilot because when you first went there you were trained as aircrew UT aircrew with a little white flash in your cap to show you were aircrew, trainee aircrew. So there we are I was told I could train as a pilot. And of course from there you had to start learning about the air force so I was posted to Newquay down in Cornwall at the ITW Initial Training Wing where you learned about the air force, square bashing, how to salute and all these sort of things. The admin side of the air force. So having completed that we were posted to, I was posted to South Africa and issued with the tropical kit and off to East Kirby, West, West Kirby at Manchester er at Liverpool to catch the boat to go out to South Africa. And in the billets there when the time came all the people left except eleven of us who were left in the room all Ws. All Walls, Walkers all the Ws left behind and we were left there and the camp disappeared. They took all the men off the camp, all the operating men off the camp and there were just the eleven, we lived off the NAAFI for a week and not knowing what on earth was going on until the next posting that came in and they were all WAAFs. All the WAAFs came in and seeing eleven blokes in their billet you know wondering what on earth was going on. So did we. Then the WAAF officer said, you know, ‘What are you doing?’ Well. ‘We were posted to South Africa and we didn’t go.’ Ah draft dodging. So we were posted down to the B course at Brighton. The bad boys course at Brighton because of the because we were accused of draft dodging and down there we were up very early in the morning and booking in at half past eight at night which we didn’t take very much enjoyment out of this sort of thing and the parades were very, very strict and doubling and running everywhere and we complained to the orderly officer one day at a mealtime telling him, you know we shouldn’t be here. We haven’t done anything wrong and he didn’t believe it and he said, ‘Oh you carry on.’ So the eleven of us, we wrote a letter and we all signed it and sent it to the station commander who had us in his office and he said. ‘This constitutes mutiny,’ which is a court martial offence and when we’d explained to him what had happened he did a bit of an investigation, he said, ‘Oh that’s alright he said, ‘Alright just book in in the morning and come in at night time.’ So we had a few days, four or five day holidaying in Brighton just walking about and spending all our time in [Sherry’s] Bar I think it was and of course then we had to start again. And when we were posted we were posted to another ITW at Stratford on Avon but all our kit and all our records had been sent out to South Africa so nobody knew anything about us so we had to start again so we did all our ITW again at Stratford on Avon and that was very pleasant. We took over most of the hotels for lectures and bedding and I can say I was on the stage in Stratford on Avon which is quite a, quite a thrill mainly as we used the theatre as aircraft recognition. We had to go on stage to point out aeroplanes but that was quite an experience and of course having completed the course successfully there you had to go and prove that we could fly and go overseas so we were posted to a place called Codsall, just north of Wolverhampton where there was a civilian aerodrome where we were, had to go flying Tiger Moths and once we’d gone solo that was it, forgot about aeroplanes. Some of the poor souls couldn’t go solo and they were re-posted. So, fortunately, I managed it and on the Empire Training Scheme where they used to send trainees to South Africa, some to Australia even, some to Arnold Scheme in America. I was posted to Canada on the Empire Training Scheme and this was at a place called Dewinton which is just south of Calgary.
CB: So this is, what date are we talking about here?
RW: This, this was in early ’42.
CB: Right.
RW: Early ’42.
CB: Can I just go back to what you said earlier?
RW: Yeah.
CB: You were selected for aircrew.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But you must have gone through some kind of process that suggested you were suitable for aircrew rather than -
RW: Yeah.
CB: A ground crew job.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was that?
RW: Yes. When you were first signed on, volunteered as air crew, when you went to Padgate to be officially sworn in to the service you did some testing there. You did some examinations there and with, fortunately with my experience as a pupil surveyor doing vectors and things on the ground is a similar sort of thing they did in the air with wind resistance and this sort of thing and that helped me enormously to pass the ground exams and having done that minor exams there you were then told you could train as UT aircrew.
CB: Right.
RW: Becoming UT aircrew PNB.
CB: Yeah.
RW: If you couldn’t succeed as a pilot you could perhaps become a navigator or a bomb aimer PNB.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And I was fortunate to say I could train as a pilot. So we -
CB: Just, just to put that into context. Earlier you talked about your experience of then getting to leave school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did you get in to bring the surveyor?
RW: Ah the well I -
CB: Which was the basis for your selection.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: For aircrew.
RW: I had, the school I went to was a training establishment more than a school. Learning about draughtsmanship and this sort of thing -
CB: Yeah.
RW: To go on the shipyards and you had to leave there when you were fifteen, sixteen. So I left school, no idea of what sort of job I could get whatsoever. So my brother who was, he was a grammar school boy and very highly educated, a very clever lad, he used to work in his spare time at the Newcastle repertory theatre and this Christmas they were putting on a play called “The Circus Girl” and they were short of somebody to take the part of the monkey in the play and my brother said I’ve got a brother who is doing nothing maybe he’d be it so I became a monkey in the Christmas pantomime at the Newcastle rep which was great fun. The devils, they wore a uniform, skin monkey skin with not much else really. The devils used to put itching powder inside that actually. Not very nice. And of course then when the pantomime was finished they said, ‘What are you doing now?’ and I said, ‘Well, I don’t know. I’ve got to look for a job.’ They said, ‘Would you like to stop on?’ So I stayed on the Newcastle rep for nearly a year as an assistant assistant assistant stage manager and with the girls doing quick changes at the side of the theatre you learned an awful lot about life but my aunt who had a very good friend who was, worked, had another friend who owned and ran an architect’s surveyors office said would I like to go and work for them. So I went and worked at the architect surveyor’s office and became a pupil surveyor. I was doing the exams for the Institute of Surveying, ISF, and I passed their preliminary exams but they didn’t count because I didn’t have a matriculation or school cert so I was going to night school four nights a week learning about mathematics and history and I wasn’t getting on terribly well. I don’t think I would have ever qualified completely but very fortunately the war came along and having volunteered to join up I left surveying and became, and joined the air force.
CB: So that’s how you effectively qualified for being air crew.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Yeah.
RW: So the fact that I qualified for air crew, the fact that, not so much my health record although the medicals I had were very comprehensive medicals the fact that the mathematics I was doing for the surveying helped me enormously with the navigation exercises we were doing in the thing so that, I think, helped towards the fact that I was allowed to train as air crew apart from the fact that they must have been very short of aircrew and they wanted somebody [to fill the boots]. Yeah, so -
CB: Just a quick question about your initial training.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How many hours did you fly before you went solo?
RW: When we first went solo at Codsall in Wolverhampton it was about eight or ten.
CB: Right.
RW: Something like that. When we got out to Canada you really had to start again and you were doing sort of fifteen, twenty hours before you really were allowed to go solo.
CB: So I’m just interrupting now because this goes into the early part of the interview because it got missed.
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AWaughmanR150803
PWaughmanR1501
Title
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Interview with Rusty Waughman. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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02:55:47 audio recording
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Pending review
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-08-03
Description
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Russell (Rusty) Waughman was born in Shotley Bridge, County Durham. Due to serious poor health as a child his education was interrupted. He describes his training with the Empire Training School in Canada. He was posted to 101 Squadron which was a special squadron with the ABC system. He describes some of the unusual aspects of squadron life such as premonitions and the close connections between everyone on the station. He had many close calls including having to right the aircraft which was flying upside down due to being blown of course by a nearby explosion. On one occasion he managed to keep his Lancaster flying despite a collision with another aircraft. On another occasion the aircraft was again damaged during an attack on Munich. However, as they made their slow progress back they found themselves flying over France in daylight and were amazed to see from the distance two Spitfires which had been sent to escort them home. He also took part in the Berlin airlift.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
Canada
England--Lincolnshire
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Julie Williams
101 Squadron
1662 HCU
82 OTU
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
C-47
control tower
coping mechanism
crewing up
dispersal
entertainment
faith
fear
FIDO
forced landing
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
heirloom
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Me 109
mid-air collision
military living conditions
military service conditions
nose art
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
perimeter track
pilot
promotion
RAF Abingdon
RAF Blyton
RAF Desborough
RAF hospital Matlock
RAF Ludford Magna
recruitment
sanitation
searchlight
Stearman
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1046/11424/ANeedleR171004.1.mp3
039babd17b2f945723e0be063c79ba99
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Needle, Ronald
R Needle
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ronald Needle (1925- 2019). He served as a rear gunner with 106 Squadron before his Lancaster crashed in France.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Needle, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Right, this is Gary Rushbrooke for the Bomber Command Association. I’m with Mr Ron Needle in Bourneville, Birmingham on the 4th of October 2017.
GR: So Ron, you were just telling me you were born in Birmingham.
RN: That’s right, yes, er I had a happy childhood because I was one of eleven children, but at one time there were ten of us living in the slums back to back house in Ladywood, Birmingham, and it was a two-bedroomed house with ten children and a pair of mum and dad. So you can imagine. [laugh]
GR: Where did, where did you come in the eleven, oldest, youngest?
RN: No, the fourth, fourth oldest
GR: Fourth oldest.
RN: Fourth oldest. But um, we, you know, there was no electric, no televisions, no telephones, no fridges, you, you had to go up the back yard to go to the boiler and take your turn to do your washing but then when I was twelve we moved to Northfield and er course it was such a contrast to house nothing but back to back houses and in Northfield there was gardens and a brook, and I called it God’s Country and to this day, and I’ve always lived near here, and luckily in Bourneville which is mainly Cadbury’s er you know I’ve lived here since I was twelve, that eighty year, I’ve lived here.
GR: Eighty years.
RN: Eighty years in this area. And um, luckily I had a damn good father.
GR: I was going to say what did your parents do, I mean.
RN: Well my father was er a postman sorter at Birmingham main post office and he was also President of the Post Office Union. But he was well respected because, unlike, dare I say, unlike today, my father looked after the men who were in the right. If a man was in the wrong whether he was a union member or not, then they had to be responsible. He would not stick up for a man who was in the wrong and I find that very different today.
GR: Yeah.
RN: So, but he was a wonderful father. He worked his damn socks off to keep us, and I’ve got nothing but respect for him. But then when I was fourteen I was staying in the gar, I was in the garden at Northfield during the war, and I saw a German plane climb very low and it was obviously a reconnaissance plane. It didn’t try to shoot at us but I obviously guessed he’d taken photographs of the Austin Aero and the factory there at Longbridge
GR: Yes.
RN: So that made me determined to join aircrew. So when I was
GR: So you was about four-fourteen when war broke out.
RN: War broke out, yes
GR: Ah yeah.
RN: And when I was seventeen I was working on the Stirling bombers and of course it was a
GR: When you say working what did you?
RN: I was a fitter.
GR: Right
RN: I was a fitter on the Stirling bomber, but then they decided it was out of date and we were all made redundant, and I went down to the Labour Exchange because at that time
GR: So when you say, sorry, so when you say
RN: It’s all right, No, on you go
GR: When you was working on the Stirling, was that, you weren’t in the RAF then
RN: Oh no, no, I was a civilian,
GR: Doing
RN: Civilian, helping to fit the sheets around the aircraft, the iron up sheets.
GR: So you was actually working in one of the factories
RN: Oh yes,
GR: Making
RN: Stirling bombers
GR: Stirling bombers.
RN: And then when we was made redundant I went to Selly Oak Labour Exchange and the man said ‘Oh, you’ve got to work down the mines’ and I said, ‘I don’t want that’ [emphasis] and he said, ‘Well it’s that or the Forces’. I said, ‘Well that’s what I want – the Forces’, and lo and behold, he found me a nice little job, in Birmingham. And then when I was seventeen and a half, and had to sign up, my Manager said ‘Ron, we’re doing specialist work, so don’t sign’ he said, ‘and you won’t have to go in the Forces.’ I said, ‘Yes, sir. I’ll go sir’. But when I went to the RAF recruiting office I volunteered [laugh] straight away for aircrew and then I became an air gunner and a rear gunner.
GR: So, obviously, you yeah you signed up, they called you up.
RN: They called me up. I started off at St John’s Wood.
GR: Yeah.
RN: I’d just had my
GR: Lord’s cricket ground.
RN: That’s right. I’d just had my hair cut but the two NCOs said ‘Get your hair cut airman’ [laugh]. So although I’d had my hair cut it didn’t meet the RAF standards. [laugh] I’ll always remember that. What interested me more than anything in the RAF [cough] was there was a Canadian who was, liked to gamble, and I didn’t, I couldn’t afford to gamble to be honest, but I always remember, er he lost a lot of money, and he turned round and said to the lad who owe, who won the money, it’s double or quits, and he kept doing it till he won. And from that moment on, I’ve never [emphasis] bet on cards.
GR: Ah.
RN: Because I thought that was a nasty thing to do. He kept up.
GR: Yeah.
RN: Anyway, um
GR: Having said that, I’m sitting next to a pack of cards!
RN: Yeah, I play crib!
GR: Okay, yes. [laugh]
RN: I play crib [cough]. And then um,
GR: So what was the training like?
RN: The training was good, er,
GR: What did you want to be when you joined?
RN: I wanted to be a rear gunner.
GR: So that was a bit fair
RN: I um, I mentioned it right away, mind you I er, I’d only had an elementary education, but I did well at school to be truthful, erm, but um, no I wanted to be an air gunner. And when I went to Stormy Downs in South Wales on the gunnery course er I met up with a chap who we agreed he would be the mid upper gunner and I would be the rear gunner, but [laugh] when we, er, finished our course, they asked us if we give our names to who we wanted to go with, which we did. But, when we got to the OTU they’d split us all up, and I can understand that now, they split us all up so although you’d put your name down to go with someone, then you wasn’t with him at all it was a stranger. But luckily I was with a chappie who agreed to be the mid upper gunner, I the rear gunner, and we got crewed up ah, and a strange thing happened, we were on training exercises and the navigator would call out, ‘Righto Skipper, change course to 163’, and the pilot would say: ‘I’ll [emphasis] tell you when I’ve to change course’. And then the bomb aimer would say, ‘Righto skipper, ready for bombing’, ‘I’ll [emphasis] tell you when you’re ready for bombing’. So when we landed, the crew
GR: This is, this is all at training
RN: Yes, we decided that we didn’t want to fly with the pilot. So we saw the Squadron Leader and in charge of the camp and we were, we told him our fears, our problem and we had another pilot come, named Jim Scott, from Scotland! Lovely man, and he saved my life, twice. Because once we were training, as funny enough a Stirling bomber, and we flew into cumulus cloud. Well, some clouds have got very strong winds, updrafts of wind, and we got caught in the updraught of wind and the plane went out of control! The pilot managed to regain control but the plane was shaking and I thought it was going to fall to bits. So we managed to land on an emergency landing. But, [emphasis] the next day three of the crew, the mid upper gunner, the wireless operator and the navigator backed out of flying. So we had to have three new members.
GR And how did you feel about that?
RN Well, I told myself, I wasn’t, funny enough, I never ever [emphasis] thought I was going to die, I must have been crazy. But I thought, how can I give up flying and my parents would be ashamed of me and that was I suppose the real reason why I carried on, but I don’t know whether that’s the truth or not because
GR [Cough] So them three that decided they didn’t want to fly were they just taken away from training or what?
RN Yes, I don’t know what happened ‘em,
GR: They just disappeared.
RN: I did find out, and I’m not going to give details because it’s a man.
GR: No, no. Yes,
RN: But my daughter did find out that the mid upper gunner er lived to be in his eighties,
GR: Right.
RN: But I never got in touch with him.
GR: No.
RN: Never got in touch with him, but er as I say, I won’t mention names.
GR: No, no, no.
RN: But then as I say, er we did eleven ops, one of which was er Munich.
GR: Tell me about your first op.
RN: Oh, the first op
GR: Cause that was the first, because obviously then you’d you’d done your training and then you were sent to 106 Squadron.
RN: Yes that’s right.
GR: Where were they based?
RN: Er Metheringham in Lincoln
GR: Metheringham, so. Right
RN: Metheringham so,
RN: Metheringham
GR: Tell us how you felt about that, going to Metheringham.
RN: Oh, I felt delighted. In fact when we walked into the Nissen Hut you know there was nice beds there, with sheets and two fires, and Jim, and er, the wireless operator turned round and said “Looks everybody’s flak happy [laugh] one of the crew, one of the crew who was in there, said you’d be bloody flak happy if we’ve been shot at and I always remember that but anyway it was, I was happy, I was doing what I wanted to do. I don’t say I wasn’t frightened, I was scared, because I’m going to be truthful, on one occasion, we were briefed to go to to Berlin and I knew at that time it was a very very bad operation.
GR: Yeah.
RN: Because of the losses that we knew about, but when he turned round, the Squadron Leader turned round, and said we were going to Berlin, a big cheer went up. I didn’t cheer, because I was really afraid. I was, I was frightened. The first time I was ever frightened of going on an operation. But we went out to the planes, ready for take off and then a message came through ‘Return to the briefing room.’ And when we went back to the briefing room, the Squadron Leader said, ‘Sorry chaps the operation is cancelled,’ and the cheer that went up then.
GR: You cheered then.
RN: I did, yes. I did.
GR: [Laugh] So what was your first operation, where can you remember where that was
RN: Yes I think it was the Dortmund Ems canal
GR: Oh right
RN: And er. we went there two or three times because it was obviously a way for the Germans to move the troops and materials.
GR: Yes
RN: Armaments But I always remember it because it was very cloudy, and we had to come under the clouds to bomb, and when we dropped the bombs, a few seconds later when they landed, the aircraft shook [laugh] because we was that low.
GR: You were low down
RN: Low down. But that was the one that er, but as I say I said to my granddaughter oh ‘bout twelve months ago, I know it sounds crazy but never once did I think I was going to die, never. The thought never entered my head. I was afraid, you know. I, whenever the bomb aimer said ‘bombs away’, I was always thinking good, now we can go home!
GR: Let’s go back
RN: Yeah. But um, I went on a few ops, you know, we went to Norway, France marshalling yards, um, Aalburg, just outside of Hamburg, um, Munich twice, but on the second time we went to Munich, er, we dropped our bombs, and I wasn’t too concerned because the first time there wasn’t much flak, no enemy fighters, and er when the bomb aimer said ‘bombs away‘ I thought ‘great we’re going home now,’ but suddenly the plane went out of control and what had happened, we’d nearly collided with one of our own aircraft. The plane went out of control so much so that the crew tried to bail out and ditched the escape hatch. And of course, being January,
GR: So out of the plane was out of control.
RN: Yes. I was
GR: Was it spiralling down or
RN: Spiralling down, well, yes,
GR: Yes.
RN: Spiralling down, but luckily the pilot, a wonderful pilot, managed to regain control. But
GR: But nobody had bailed out?
RN: Nobody had bailed out, but the escape hatch had gone and icy cold air was coming into the aircraft so, he immediately called me up and said would I vacate my turret and give my gloves to the navigator so that he could plot a course, to near Paris, for the emergency aerodrome. But then I was sitting in the back
GR: Was the aircraft flyable then?
RN: Oh yes,
GR: It was okay
RN: Oh yes, the only thing wrong with the aircraft, we were flying blind and the esc and no escape hatch. Because icy air was flying in,
GR: Right
RN: The machine. And then the pilot called up the mid upper gunner and said er ‘Mid upper gunner, can you see the deck yet?’
GR: So where were you, sorry Ron, so where, so you’ve come out your turret
RN: I’d come out my turret
GR: Where were you sat or what were you doing?
RN: That’s it, I was sat on the Elsan! [laugh] OK Margaret.
[Other] – I’ll just put this away [whisper] sorry, sorry see you next week
RN: See you next week.
[Other]: Bye.
GR: Right.
NR: Yes. We were, you know, in the area of [pause] still near the German border.
GR: Yes, er sorry we’ve just interrupted but. So, you’ve come out of the rear turret
RN: Yeah, so I’m sat on the Elsan at the back,
GR: Yes.
RN: Plugged in the intercom and was waiting to hear what was going on, and then the the pilot called up the mid upper gunner and said ‘Mid upper gunner can you see the deck yet?’ And without any panic, the mid upper gunner said ‘Yes skipper, it’s right below us.’ The skipper’s response was, ‘It can’t be, [emphasis] we’re at four thousand feet.’ But we weren’t. The altimeter must have been giving a false reading, because suddenly I felt myself being pushed forward and went unconscious for hours. When I came to, the plane was on fire, and I’d, I’d been unconscious for hours but I managed to, dis - my harness had saved my life so I managed to press the button, release my harness, fell to the floor, but I’d broke my leg, punctured my lung and dislocated my right arm.
GR: So what had happened?
NR: Well I’d obviously it’d I had pull I’d gone forward and hitting the mid upper turret but my harness had got caught on the fuselage and pulled me back.
GR: So I know you told me earlier, but basically the plane, the Lancaster, you all thought you were at four thousand feet, but you were at ground level and it crashed.
NR: It crashed in a forest.
GR: Crashed straight in.
RN: In on a hill in occupied allied occupied France.
GR: Right.
NR: Near the German border.
GR: Yeah.
RN: And er I lay there for hours because this was just turned eight o’clock at night. Day broke the next morning, I was still lying there waiting for people to come, and then I heard bells ringing from a church.
GR: So you’re inside the aircraft.
NR: Yeah.
GR: Yes.
NR: No, managed to get out of the aircraft.
GR: Oh sorry.
NR: I open the door, crawled out of the aircraft.
GR: Was there anybody with you?
NR: No no I was on my own.
GR: Right.
RN: All on my own, because Harry he he was saved because said he had a feeling we were going to crash and he held on to the spar, you know near the Perspex astrodome.
GR: Yes.
RN: And that melted actually melted on to him and he got out, he was badly burnt but luckily only on skin deep and he escaped early because he wasn’t unconscious. So I didn’t know he was alive and he didn’t know I was alive and then,
GR: And at the time, I know you’ve already told me, but the rest of the crew were killed.
RN: Five of the crew were killed.
GR: But you didn’t know this at that time.
RN: No no.
GR: So, you, you’ve come round, you’re in the aircraft, sorry, you’re outside, you didn’t know where you was, what’d happened.
RN: No. And then it, suddenly I heard bells ringing from a church. So I thought, sounds near, so I crawled out of the forest in the direction of the bells, and lay by a tree on a, in a field, and I shouted for help and within minutes I saw three people running towards me, one of who I found out later was the bell ringer. So I was taken to the Mayor’s house, who who looked after me, till the ambulance came and again, luckily for me, there was a hospital three mile away at a place called Commercery in France with American personnel running the hospital. They looked after me, and gave me doses of penicillin but er, because I got gangrene, that’s what, well it turned to gangrene
GR: So your right leg .
RN: Yeah, my right leg.
GR: Which had broke, frostbite, gangrene had set in.
RN: Yeah, so they took half me foot away.
GR: While you were still in at the
RN: Still in France yeah,
GR: Right.
RN: We’d gone. Then we they sent me back to England on a hospital train and then when I got to England I went to a place, RAF Hospital in Swindon and eventually I had to have my leg off below the knee but and it was okay, So luckily. [emphasis] Again, I repeat this word luck, because I think life is all about luck.
GR: Yes.
RN: I was lucky I was,
GR: When did you actually find out that the rest of the crew hadn’t made it?
RN: Oh at when I was in the American hospital.
GR: Yeah.
RN: And, cause that was when they told me that Harry was safe, he’d, he’d escaped, and er as I say he crawled out on to the aircraft body and er he found his way to a sheep hut in the middle of the village and er someone came with a pitchfork, thought he was a German. But he made them realise he was he was English, and they looked after him, same as me. I was well looked after. The French looked after me. I’ve got nothing but admiration, in fact I became good friends, as I say 43 years afterwards my brother-in-law turned round and said ‘Ron, come on, we’re going to find this village where you crashed.’ And I remember going to the village, asking a young lady who happened to be Andre’s daughter-in-law if she could speak English. She said a little, but she didn’t understand. But again I was lucky, she took me to a hou- bungalow two hundred yards away cause it was only a little village, and the woman there could speak perfect English, in fact she was an interpreter for the American Armed Forces during the war. [laugh] So again became good friends and she sent her husband Guy, er who was a prisoner of war in Germany, to deliver it, who spoke to Andre and a few minutes later Andre came up in his truck and er when he saw me he put his arms round me and hugged me, made a fuss of me, and he when he went up to his house. This is important, he went to his larder and he brought out a cake tin which he’d made from the Lancaster bomber, the salvage, the bomber. So Reg, my brother-in-law had it engraved with 106 Squadron, 5 Group, Metheringham, details of the crash and we took it back to Andre. When Andre saw it he claimed it, went to the larder and brought out another cake tin, and gave me that, so Reg, my brother-in-law, had it engraved in French, so we then we done a swap. So Andre had erm a cake tin which was engraved with the French details and I had a one with in English.
GR: Have you still got it?
RN: Well, my daughter’s got it over in Bedford.
GR: Oh that’s lovely.
RN: O yes, oh yes, she’s got it alright.
GR: So going back to the hospital erm, this would be round about March, April, May 1945?
RN: Correct.
GR: Yeah.
RN: Yeah that’s right.
GR: How long was you in hospital for in England?
RN: Well, on and off um because of the different, the gangrene, taking a long time, er it was about 5 months.
GR: Right.
RN: But it was er way into November [emphasis] before I had an artificial leg. But um, well I was lucky, I managed to run and dance and play golf.
GR: So I, I presume then you were released from the RAF.
RN: Yes, yes.
GR: Yes.
RN: And I did say, I’ve gotta get, one thing about being old you can tell the truth, I do remember telling well the, some of the officers who came to interview, that I didn’t want to fly again, and I didn’t. It was true, I didn’t want to fly again. Erm you know, because of what had happened to me. But er nothing was said or done. I was discharged, on a discharge.
GR: What did you do after the war Ron?
RN: Well I was, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the Bendix washing machine?
GR: Yes.
RN: But I the firm I worked for was making washing machines.
GR: As an engineer, or
RN: No I went as a progress clerk.
GR: Right.
RN: And again, it was the happiest days of my life. I can still remember nearly all the part numbers of the panels, the motors and all the integral parts even now, and I loved it and again, I suppose I was lucky because one week we didn’t reach the target and my manager turned round to the superintendent and asked him to fiddle the records to say that we had achieved the target. [Cough] But my superintendent turned round and said ‘Right our Ron, we’ll give him the, what he wants but I’m going to send one to the Chairman and the others with the correct details.’ Now, I know I’m right, I know in my heart I’m right. I didn’t like that, I thought, you know, you can’t, you can’t give the Chairman the correct details and the manager the wrong details. So I did tell the manager and er I wasn’t ashamed of it, I told him what what had happened and he turned round to the super and he says ‘I’m accepting what you said, we’ll just issue the right details.’ So, I was pleased about that. But I tell you that little story because, I’m sure he recommended me to be promoted to the buying office.
GR: Ah right.
RN: So er and then I was asked to take over the stores which I did. And I enjoyed it, but er the happiest job I ever had without a doubt was as progress clerk. It wasn’t you know, was well paid, but um I was just happy doing it.
GR: Yes. And I, I have to ask because you were waiting for me at the door when I came up and I didn’t know you had a, obviously a false leg, it’s not been a hindrance to you, or?
RN: Well, only in later life
GR: Yeah.
RN: Only twelve months ago.
GR: Well you look well when I came, Ron. [laugh]
RN: Well, that’s the medication
GR: Yeah
NR: The medication is great oh its er
GR: But since the war, the last sixty seventy years it’s not stopped you doing anything?
RN: No, no.
GR No.
RN It’s only in the last couple of three years
GR Yeah
RN But er I started to lose me balance which you do when you’re old.
GR: Which you do as you get older.
RN: when you get old.
GR: Yeah.
RN: But other than that, great.
GR: Oh that’s good, that’s good. And I know you mentioned Harry, who was the other survivor.
RN: Yes.
GR: And I know he passed away a few years ago.
RN: Well, Harry er he married a girl from Barrow-in-Furness. He came from Brighton and er they decided to emigrate, so they adopted a child and went to New Zealand. Unfortunately his wife, Winnie died, in New Zealand, so he came back, to England. So I, I met him at Southampton, and er driving back to Birmingham and then I drove him to Barrow to er see his sister-in-law, but then the next thing I knew, a few months later, he married a girl in Sheffield and er I was in we was we was in touch all the while and er eventually unfortunately, his wife died and then um because of our age, Harry died.
GR: Yeah. What was Harry’s surname?
RN: Stunnell, Harry Stunnell.
GR: Stunnell.
RN: Yeah, he’s mentioned in the book of course, but er we were good friends, We were obviously we got something special happen to us, which bonded us together.
GE: Were the crew, were the other five members of the crew buried in France?
RN: Yes indeed.
GR: Yes.
RN: In fact I’ve been to the cemetery.
GR: That I was going to ask if you’d been.
RN: Yeah, oh yes, I’m glad you asked that Gary because the name of the cemetery was C H O L O Y and in fact I though it was [sounded] shaloy but in French it’s [sounded] Shalois. Shalois. But, er yes. Andre the er bell ringer, two or three times, he took me to the cemetery and I saw all the graves of the crew and others, and I even met the gardener who’s main job was to look after the cemetery and er you know yes, it was nice, it was nice to er, to see it.
GR: Like you’ve said, you’ve said a couple of times I think, because you didn’t know you were going to crash, cause obviously crews er the pilot said get ready to crash land.
RN: That’s right.
GR: Brace yourself.
RN: That’s right
GR: The pilots looking for somewhere to land, this came completely out the blue.
RN: Oh yes,
GR: You knew you were in a bit of trouble but didn’t realise you were that low.
RN: And of course, the pilot was going by his instruments.
GR: Yeah, And he wouldn’t have known nothing.
RN: Yeah so at least on my consolation is, that they died within seconds.
GR: Yeah.
RN No Didn’t suffer no, so, that I know that sounds bad.
GR Suffer. No, no it’s not bad at all it’s erm.
RN Well that’s briefly the life I had. I was married er I had a lovely wife.
GR: Married after the war I presume?
RN: Yes um, I was married at the end of er November in 45 and I had two daughters and a son and the two daughters even today spoil me rotten.
GR: And so they should [laugh]
RN: Well, [laugh] unfortunately my son died with cancer, but um no, I’ve had a good life, I’ve keep using this word lucky, but well I have been a lucky person, I have been a lucky person, and still am.
GR: Yeah. Lucky, but good. Good yeah. Ron has kindly donated his book “Saved by the Bell”, erm, which the the University can use to take bits out etc, I’ll just switch off. That was lovely thank you Ron.
RN: I have sent one to the University of Lincoln.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ronald Needle
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANeedleR171004
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:30:37 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Needle, from Birmingham, flew operation as a rear gunner on 106 Squadron Lancasters at Metheringham. Operations included Norway, Dortmund Ems Canal and Munich; he was one of two survivors after his aircraft crashed in France. Ron was aided by local villagers in Choloy and treated by American doctors. Repatriated to England, his lower leg had to be amputated and he was discharged from the RAF. Ron married and had three children. He returned to France, visiting the villagers who helped him and the graves of his crew.
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Birmingham
England--Lincolnshire
France--Meurthe-et-Moselle
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
106 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
crash
crewing up
fear
final resting place
heirloom
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Metheringham
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/982/10254/PHarrisonRL1801.2.jpg
2b6f58855d9b3e918a346406b6733042
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/982/10254/AHarrisonRL181101.1.mp3
37d270aec9efdc8c5f0bbc65e61dd633
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Ron
Ronald L Harrison
R L Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Ronald Harris (b.1936) a map showing where bombs landed in the city and a document concerning bombing attacks on Hull. He was a young boy in Hull during the war when his grandmother's house was bombed.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ronald Harrison and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harrison, R-2
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MS: So, I’m sitting with Ronald Harrison.
RH: Yeah.
MS: And you don’t mind me calling you Ron, do you?
RH: Yeah. Yeah. No.
MS: It’s alright to call you Ron?
RH: No. No. It’s fine.
MS: Good. And your date of birth is the 22nd of the 4th 1936.
RH: Yeah.
MS: And at the moment we’re at [deleted] Lincoln.
RH: Yeah.
MS: And the, the date is the 1st of November 2018.
RH: Yeah.
MS: The interviewer is me, Michael Sheehan. And the purpose of the interview as it’s for the International Bomber Command Centre. The Digital Archive. And the reason that I’m raising my voice so much is because you’ve asked me to.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Because your hearing aid is useless.
RH: Yeah. I’m deaf as a door nail.
MS: Deaf as a door nail, aren’t you?
RH: Yeah. Deaf as a door nail.
MS: That’ll do. And also present in the room is Mary Drabble, your friend from down the road who you feed every day [laughs]
MD: Yes [laughs]
MS: And who looks, who looks after you.
MD: Yes.
MS: Right. Ok then, Ron it’s at the moment it’s twenty seven minutes past ten and I’m about to start the interview. If at any stage during the interview you feel uncomfortable, you want a loo break or anything like that just say so and we’ll stop the interview. We’ll pause it. And also, Mary, one of your reasons for being here is to make sure that we don’t tire Ron or not look after him. Are you alright with that?
MD: Yes.
MS: Ok. Right. Ron you’ve given me a map here of Hull and on it you’ve annotated where the bombs dropped etcetera. Where did you live? What was the name of the Road?
RH: St Paul’s Street. In a little terrace.
MS: Where are we?
RH: Just a moment. Where are we?
MS: There’s St Paul’s Street.
RH: It’s that. Fountain Road. There’s that, that one look. That one there.
MS: Right. And there’s a mark on it.
RH: Line of bombs there look.
MS: That’s it. Now, you lived near a railway line, didn’t you?
RH: Yes. You’ve, yes, that’s the — yeah.
MS: And on here you’ve marked where the bombs fell and one of those bombs appears to have fallen right on the house.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Where you lived.
RH: Yeah.
MS: So, do you want to tell us about that? First of all, how old were you?
RH: It was a terrace which, with maybe seven houses on each side and in the middle was a shelter for the residents.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Right.
MS: Good. Yeah. An air raid shelter.
RH: Yes. Yes, it was. Yeah.
MS: Right.
RH: Because all the streets had them down them in them days, as well.
MS: Right. Describe the shelter to me then.
RH: Yeah.
MS: What was the shelter like?
RH: Pardon?
MS: What was the shelter like? What was it made of?
RH: [laughter] It’s no good showing you on there is it?
MS: No.
RH: But that’s it there. It depends on the size of the shelter but they’d bunk beds, look.
MS: Yeah.
RH: So, they’d get three in there look, you see. They was awful. The smell. Awful.
MS: Go on. Tell us.
RH: The smell was awful. The air was foul. You couldn’t open the door because the air raid wardens used to keep saying, ‘Keep them doors shut.’ You know, you couldn’t go out and see what was happening but oh it just, the smell and that and the damp, sweat. The longer you was in, I mean, you was maybe in all night. So that was it. Toilets. Everything was a big problem.
MS: Ok. Were there toilets in there?
RH: Pardon?
MS: Were there toilets in there?
RH: No.
MS: No.
RH: No. if I remember rightly, as I was saying to Mary they put a drum in the corner but you was asked only use it in emergencies.
MS: Right.
RH: But it depends how long you was in there, you see.
MS: You’ve got men and women in there at the same time.
RH: Yes. And children. Yeah.
MS: What, what arrangements did they make for privacy?
RH: What?
MS: Did they put blankets up to give privacy or anything like that?
RH: I’m not catching you.
MS: Ok. If somebody wanted to use the loo.
RH: Oh yeah.
MS: How did they give you some, some privacy?
RH: Well you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t ‘cause there wasn’t such a thing was there?
MS: Right.
RH: It was, it was, it was just survival when you was in there because the shelter would rock. You’d know and you’d think is that my house gone? Is it next door’s? Is it down the next street?
MS: Yeah.
RH: You just didn’t know. It was the size of the bomb. All them are different bombs look. The big ones, they’re real big. The big boys look.
MS: Yeah.
RH: So it, it was a worrying time. They’d sing their heads off, and knit and God knows what. You know.
MS: A bit like a party. Right. Now, how old were you when the war started? About three?
RH: I would be, yes.
MS: Right.
RH: Yeah. I would be. Yes. Yeah.
MS: Ok, so tell me about the night your house got bombed.
RH: Sorry. What?
MS: Tell me about the night when your house got bombed.
RH: I was staying, luckily with my grandmother which was my mother’s mother.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Again, in an area what got bombed ever so badly. I stayed with her that night because my dad was in the National Fire Service which meant he had to be on duty that night. So, he asked, asked granny if I could stop with her the night and fortunately for us it was the one night when the bomb hit the place. So, so it was luckily I was staying with my grandmother that night otherwise it would have been — well I wouldn’t have been here now interviewing, would I?
MS: No. No. When you stayed with your gran were you in a shelter or in her house?
RH: In the house but my grandmother was one that would never use the shelter. The older people were stubborn. My grandmother would always say, I’d said to Mary, in them days you could go to the corner shop and buy beer out of a barrel and she used to get a jug of ale. Even send me. She’d say, ‘Go across and get me a jug of ale.’ They knew who it was for. She’d put it aside of her and say, ‘Let Jerry come over tonight. I’m alright.’ She’d, and when she’d cleared the daughters and everybody, me, into their shelters but she would not. She’d say, ‘Open the doors. Open the windows. Let the blast through if it comes,’ and they’d sit there and that was it. That’s how they was. They just didn’t care and the people on her terrace would maybe be the same. They’d only, if they had children, they’d maybe take them in the shelters but a lot of them just wouldn’t move. They’d just say, ‘Jerry aint going to move me.’ So —
MS: Right. Now, when we had a little chat earlier you told me that somebody then told you the next day your house had been hit. Is that right?
RH: Somebody got?
MS: Did somebody tell your dad your house had been hit?
RH: Yes. One of his firemen mates when they got back to the station. He was on the docks.
MS: Yeah.
RH: So, he, you know and I could tell you about my dad on the docks but —
MS: Go on then.
RH: I don’t know whether it wants recording.
MS: Go on. It’s alright. You’d be surprised.
RH: No [laughs] When we, we moved from here we got another house up Beverley Road. Up, up this area. Stepney Lane, they called it.
MS: Yeah.
RH: And when he used to come home, he used to bring stuff home what they’d salvaged. So, if you remember them days there was tatty little old fire engines.
MS: Yeah.
RH: But he’d come back and he’d bring a box of chocolate. Drinking chocolate. Which, we didn’t know what it was.
MS: Yeah.
RH: And he would say to me, ‘Right Ronnie. Go around the Street. Tell them all to come down with a jug,’ and he’d sit at the front door and fill everybody’s thing.
MS: Oh nice.
RH: Or if it was a roll of curtain everybody in the terrace had the same curtains [laughs] you know. Anything like that. But this bit, I don’t know whether it should be recorded. He used to say well we’ve got, ‘When we go on the docks if the docks are getting hit we’d go on and if there’s a Yankee ship,’ he says, they used to amaze us because they’ve all got guns on which a lot of ours didn’t carry but the Yanks would have the guns on. So, he says, ‘We used to go in and help ourselves.’ And they said, ‘Well, where were the Yanks?’ We’d say and he said, ‘We knew where they was ‘cause as we passed the shelter, we could hear their teeth rattling.’ [laughs] And I said [laughs] I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘They all run to the shelter. So,’ he said, ‘We used to go on the ship and have a look around,’ and this is where these boxes of chocolate —
MS: Is this where you salvaged stuff?
RH: Yeah. Chewing gum. Yeah. No, they used to go in and roam around the ship and find the storeroom and they’d say, ‘Oh we’ll have that.’ And of course then my dad used to share it all out, you know. But, but I don’t know whether [laughs] —
MS: He’s not around, still is he?
RH: He used to say, no, he always knew where they was.
MS: Yeah.
[laughter]
MS: Now then, tell me what you saw when you got to your house.
RH: What? When I got up.
MS: When you got to the house it was bombed, yeah?
RH: Well, yeah. I mean, it was frightening. It was. It was frightening to see it, and I say I’m not sure, again me and Mary was talking about it. I’m not sure whether the shelter top had fell in. They used these chaps who I go to, one of them says to me, ‘That got it real bad.’ He said, ‘A friend of mine went to rescue on that day. They got it,’ he said and they couldn’t do a thing because the concrete. The wall for some reason had given. The concrete had come down on them but that’s only what I was told. And of course, that’s maybe where these young kiddies — there was, I think, it’s on there somewhere they was four and seven or something like that. Two girls and their parents was killed. So, so it could have been that what’s done it you see.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Crushed them. I don’t, but —
MS: And what did you find in the debris? Was there anything that you salvaged?
RH: Well [laughter] well, I got a red lorry. All bent up. Yeah. But we did get a butter dish [laughs]
MS: You did get a butter dish.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Right. Tell us about the lorry and what your dad did.
RH: Oh, I had it for years and years afterwards. It was, it was a family treasure and then as you get older you recall these things, don’t you? But can I just —
MS: Yeah. Sure.
RH: Tell you another one. Mary said you ought to be told.
MS: Before you move on to that, if you don’t mind, you told me earlier that you found the lorry and it was badly damaged.
RH: Yes.
MS: And what did your dad do?
RH: Well, just took it back to my grandmother’s and then got an hammer and he tried to bring it back as good as he could. I mean, I thought it was brilliant because we didn’t have toys. The station where he was, we used to walk down to it and they always had the doors open ready for a quick — but all the men used to be making rocking horses and, you know, them clowns on wires.
MS: Oh yeah.
RH: And all these things and they used to be doing that for the children that had lost everything. So, I was alright. I got little bits that way you see but, but yeah, no Mary this morning says tell them what, being a lad, to us as I say it was fantastic. We went in town as kids and the bus station had been hit.
MS: Yeah.
RH: So, all the buses was in this big room. Well, we thought it was fantastic. We’d all them buses to ourselves. We went to another building and I know this sounds silly doesn’t it but the lift, there’s a cable down the middle. We put cloths around our hands and jumped to catch the wire. So, I must have been about eightish then. Seven or eight. And we slid down and as we slipped down [bang] on the back of the head. And we went, ‘What’s that?’ And it was a policeman and he gave us all a good hiding. I mean he really belted into us. So, he said, ‘Now go home and tell your dad and your mother that the policeman’s done it. My number is,’ so and so, ‘And report me if your dare.’ And we thought, ‘What’s he on about?’ And then we found out later in life it’s where Hull records was kept and there was a policeman at the door on duty. It got a direct hit and it just, they never found him.
MS: Oh.
RH: The policeman. They found his helmet somewhere and that was all they ever found. So that’s why we got punished that day for it.
MS: Got you.
RH: And that was in, in the town itself. Right in the town centre it was.
MS: Right.
RH: But, and then another time, Mary said you must know what, it’s an awkward one isn’t it? We, we went out one day and a chemist near us, again near my Grandma Brown had been, the area had had a bomb and the fish and chip shop had gone and all that but the chemist. So, we goes in as kids and you know them big bottles they have in the window there?
MS: Oh the carboys.
RH: Beautiful.
MS: Yeah.
RH: They’re still there. Oh, get a brick, you know, so we smashed them so I always feel guilty every time I see them nowadays and of course the lads would break into all these little drawers with wires and of course the lads — chocolate. All this chocolate. You know what’s coming.
MS: [laughs] I do.
RH: Honestly there’s about four of us. Well we sat down. Wow. Chocolate. Oh, this is what chocolate tastes like. Brilliant. About an hour later we’re passing, we’re going back to my Grandma Brown’s area and there’s a river, a little river, with a bank. We all go down there. We drop off our pants. We’re all sat on the grass and all the women was on the bridge shouting, ‘You mucky little devils.’ ‘You want your — ’ you know.
MS: Yeah.
RH: And all that, and we can’t understand this. We can’t understand it. The lads were saying, ‘But this isn’t natural is it?’ And as I say we was all lined up and they were all stood on the bridge. Everybody was giving us it and we didn’t, we couldn’t say, ‘Well we’ve had laxative.’ Could we? [laughs]
MS: You’d had Ex-Lax.
RH: So. you know, so [laughs] so I’ve never seen, touched laxative to this day.
MS: In a sense you’ve never needed to.
RH: But honestly it was so simple and so desperate.
MS: How did you treat the area? You told me earlier it was you and your mates.
RH: It was. It was a bad. It was bad. It was bad, bad. That’s only the little area of Hull that but it —
MS: No. I mean from your attitude how did you see the area? Was it an adventure?
RH: Well, brilliant for kids. For our age group it was brilliant. I mean this school. This St Paul’s Street School. Do you know I can even remember the teacher saying, ‘What’s them up there?’ And we said, oh, you know, whatever they are, ‘Oh the Lancasters going over.’ And you know you think that wasn’t right was it? Watching things like that. And then they’d you’d go in the shelter. But Grandma Brown and all this area was very British. Really British.
MS: Yeah.
RH: All the walls was covered in, “Doing a good job lads.” “Soon be home lads.” You know. “God save the king,” and all this. Every wall you went, terraces, all over. Shelters. They was all covered in it.
MS: Any flags?
RH: Eh?
MS: Any flags?
RH: Well, as much as they could. I mean in them days.
MS: Yeah.
RH: That wasn’t the thing was it? But it’s, they was brilliant, people really. They was.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Brilliant.
MS: Tell us what you were telling me earlier when you’d go down the road with your mates and you’d see a bombed building and you’d see cupboards hanging out and stuff like that.
RH: Yeah.
MS: What were you, what did you do then?
RH: Well to us it was just another house gone, you know. And to be honest looking back as a, as a child I can’t even remember thinking, ‘Oh I hope little George’s mam and dad’s alright because that’s where he lives.’ You know, you never thought of that. You just thought see if that’s like that tonight [laughter] you know, we’ll have a — it was, yeah, it was, I think, I think these people helped you to be like that because they never showed worry. And I say my Granny Brown used to come. She’d shout, ‘Hey Mavis.’ And Mavis would come out and they’d stand and Lancs would be going over and they’d be counting them, ‘I make it twenty just gone over. What do you make it, Mavis?’ ‘Yes, oh, I made it nineteen.’ And then so many hours later the lads would come back wouldn’t they and then they’d go, ‘Tch we’ve lost three.’ You know. ‘We’ve lost four.’ That’s the only time you’d see them say, ‘Oh dear, dear, dear,’ you know, ‘We’ve lost a couple,’ or whatever. But the Jerries used to just come over the Humber. I mean you used to think they was letting them in. I mean they’d come over like mad. It was, it was, oh it was a regular thing. You may as well have waved to them, the Jerries. It sounds daft, doesn’t it?
MS: No. It doesn’t.
RH: They was coming down the Humber but you’d get I was reading some of them that up to thirty or forty Jerry planes coming down but they weren’t all after Hull. They used to go out, bomb Sheffield or wherever. On the way back if they’ve ought left, they just let it all just drop on here, you see.
MS: Yeah.
RH: But —
MS: Did you lose any friends?
RH: No. Not, not what I’m aware of but there again you don’t know ‘cause a lot got sent away. When I come out the army and I went back to my job I worked at a tannery somewhere up here around ‘cause the River Hull ain’t on here even you see.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. There’s a tannery. A fairly big place but I worked there and I went back and you know the lads used to say to me, ‘Do you know, if you’ve been in Lincoln —' I was with the Royal Lincs you see.
MS: There’s the tannery.
RH: Yeah. Well, I went back there and I’d done my National Service and the lads would say, ‘Oh well I went to, I was posted. I was sent out as a child. Do you know a place called Bardney at Lincoln?’ I used to say, ‘Yes.’ And they used to say, ‘Oh there were hundreds of us sent to Bardney.’
MS: Just down the Road.
RH: And places it like that. And Washingborough.
MS: Yeah.
RH: They was all you know, they knew and I’d say, ‘No, I’ve been posted. I’m in Lincoln. I’ve been posted with the Royal Lincolns.’ They’d say, ‘Oh we never got into Lincoln but we went, we was on the farms.’ So, I lost a lot that way, you see. Their parents shoved them off where, you know. I suppose with my situation my dad wanted me there with him.
MS: Yeah. And you say about your situation.
RH: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: Can you just explain about that?
RH: And opposite. Opposite us where them bombs come down. Yes, that’s, just opposite there was a little pawn shop. I always remember. And as a kid I used to take my dad’s suit over on and you know, the old story take it over, put it in. Get some money for the weekend so he could have a few pounds. You know. Used to take the suit out for the weekend.
MS: Yeah.
RH: And yeah, and put it in Monday’s and you know it’s —
MS: Life went on.
RH: It’s marvellous isn’t it?
MS: Yeah. Life went on. Now you said a minute ago you referred to your situation. You were living with your dad because something rather sad happened didn’t it?
RH: I was, sorry?
MS: You were living with your dad.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Because something rather sad happened to you, didn’t it?
RH: Yeah. He got married again when we’d moved from here.
MS: But you lost your mother, didn’t you?
RH: Yes. Yeah. It was a step-mother obviously and we just, of course she had her own family then so it made it worse and worse for me all the time. It was unbelievable but at any rate —
MS: Ok. Where did you, where did you live when you were bombed out?
RH: We went to, just [pause] down, it’s Rodney Street. Somewhere there.
MS: There’s Rodney Street.
RH: Yeah. That’s where my Grandma Brown lived so you know they, I remember all this happening. We lived in a place called Blake Street and it was somewhere around Rodney Street. Somewhere in this area, I think.
MS: Blake Street.
RH: Blake Street.
MS: Can’t see that. There was a lot of stuff falling around your granny’s house wasn’t there?
RH: Well —
MS: That’s where she lived.
RH: Yeah. They’ve all been pulled down now and rebuilt now. They’re all like motorways and God knows what like. But yeah, it’s —
MS: What’s your, what’s your strongest memory from the wartime?
RH: I think [pause] well little bits. I think that going back to that house and finding my lorry and then thinking back now and then — the Brown family. One of the sons was in the navy and they had a big party one night and all his mates came who was going on the ship. They went to Newcastle. They got on a ship and it went out and it went. It turned over, apparently in the ice. So, they was all lost. I remember that night when everybody was happy and kissing and saying, they’d let you know when they get back and all that so. There’s that. There’s my lorry. There’s the people. The people. The area. It was, yeah. So, it’s —
MS: It wasn’t a sad time was it?
RH: Pardon?
MS: It wasn’t a sad time was it?
RH: No. No. No. Sent us way down. Well it’s here look, the start of it.
MS: Yeah. No, I mean, I mean you didn’t have a bad childhood, did you? is that what you were telling me earlier? You had a, you actually, you just got on with it didn’t you?
RH: I’ve just —?
MS: Didn’t you, I’ve just had to raise my voice a bit. You just got on with life, didn’t you?
RH: Oh yes.
MS: That’s what you were telling me earlier.
RH: Definitely. No. Definitely. Oh no, they got to. As I say yes so we went to school with bits of cardboard in the bottom of your shoes like everybody else. A cornflake box or summat, but you know. We was cold and wet and miserable. Gaslights wasn’t it? But, but yeah it was, it was nice. And the other memory I’ve got of seeing about three trawlers in the Humber and I can remember seeing them with the bits stuck up where Jerry got them, didn’t they? Three I think there was.
MS: Oh right. I didn’t know about that.
RH: Yeah. In the Humber. So, they were stuck there. They were still there in 1950-odd I would think.
MS: Were they?
RH: Yeah. Yeah. They was. They was just stuck. I think they were just trying to get into port and it’s I sometimes do wonder how Grimsby’s still there. Because I think of all that, all the gun work going on and I think Grimsby [laughs] was only across the water.
MS: Yeah.
RH: You know, and you think don’t put the guns too low mate or you’re going to hit Grimsby [laughs] you know. And I often think about that and I think well the planes obviously must have got it weighed up coming in. Then there was the two forts wasn’t there? In the Humber which —
MS: Oh yeah.
RH: Yeah. There’s two forts. Fort Paul and I forgot the other one. They had a net across, I think. Submarine net. And I know just as the war finished the dock in the centre of the town had two or three submarines there. I think they was German what had surrendered.
MS: Yeah.
RH: And the worst thing that happened was the day everybody in Hull thought it was over. They all went down. My grandmother, all of us, even my old granny, we went down to the town. All the Yanks come and they put the lights on. Well we’d never seen them. The fountain lit up you know and all that, you know. It was absolutely fantastic but that happened on one of the roads, Holderness Road and there’s a plaque there now up on Boyes’ shop. They came out the cinema thinking it was all over. They put the lights on and as they come out a Jerry plane decided he didn’t like the idea of peace and he went down and de de de de [machine gun noise] and then he got twelve of them coming out the cinema and they thought it was all over. They’d been told it was finished but what happened here I don’t know but he went down and so there’s, there’s a plaque up. There was twelve. The last twelve, the last people in Britain killed were in the war was them twelve.
MS: That’s terrible. I didn’t, I’ve never heard of that.
RH: Didn’t you?
MS: No.
RH: Yeah. Yeah. The last. The last people killed in the last war was there. Yeah.
MS: Not very nice. Right.
RH: But yes but sad days isn’t it really when you look at it? I go now when me and my brother will wander around. I’ll go around all, some of these areas and yeah, they bring back memories. But —
MS: How did they, I asked you earlier but can you tell me on tape, how did the school deal with losing children? What did they do?
RH: Nothing. No. I can’t remember anything. All we did, we had assembly in the morning and of course it was always, “For Those in Danger on the Sea.” And, you know, it was all, we sang hymns and we used to get things like, you know, ‘Right children, Tommy Brown won’t be here unfortunately. His house got bombed last night and we’ve lost him.’ But that, you know, and we just said, ‘Oh dear.’ You know.
MS: And moved on.
RH: Yeah. You know, you know as I say, you know, you look at that lot and some poor devils there hadn’t had much chance had they, look?
MS: No. Nor here where all these clusters are.
RH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MS: Yeah, these I’m looking at a, I’m looking at a plan that has been given to me by Ron and on it are all the bombs that dropped.
RH: Yeah.
MS: In that particular area of Hull and he’s pointing out that particular cluster.
RH: Yeah. So that would be one plane wouldn’t it look, that would have been one big line—
MS: That looks like a stick. Yeah.
RH: He’s dropped them and gone back home then has he?
MS: Yeah. So, he has. But the other thing that intrigues me is there’s quite a few railway stations around where you lived.
RH: Yeah. Oh, there is. Yeah. They had the Stepney Lane which I lived near and because that house we had here we moved again to a place [pause] where’s the tannery?
MS: There’s the tannery.
RH: Here. Farringdon Street, somewhere. Stepney Lane.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. Here look, you see. We moved there look [laughs] then we got all that again. Look.
MS: Yeah.
RH: And now all of the houses on one side of the street we lived, six foot off the window was the shelters with three foot gaps in.
MS: Yeah.
RH: For you to walk through. But all the shelters, the houses opposite was blown to smithereens and it was all open ground. But them houses, all ours just got the windows blown out. The shelters —
MS: Yeah.
RH: Saved a lot of it but so it was just everywhere you moved so you just thought well let’s hope he doesn’t go for this area ‘cause you never knew what the hell they was aiming at look.
MS: No.
RH: What was they after?
MS: No. I know what you mean.
RH: It was a morale wasn’t it? Just it’s —
MS: Well, it was an important port as well wasn’t it?
RH: And then, and of course what upsets all the people in Hull and it still does to this day that nobody knew Hull was getting it because Churchill wouldn’t, it was, it’s only come out in the last ten years hasn’t it? This, the thing. Churchill said it’s only can be called a town in the northeast. You must not mention Hull because Hitler thinks he isn’t getting nowhere. If you mention about all the bombing, he’ll be rubbing his hands and apparently when they found one of his offices, he had a full scale map of Hull. Every building in it. And they said that they must have had somebody working there a long while before the war. He knew exactly where he wanted to be.
MS: You know, I want to ask you a question. I was talking to somebody else who said that just before the war started a balloon, a manned balloon actually, a German one, came up the river and over Hull. Do you remember that?
RH: Oh, the, oh the balloon.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. Oh, do you mean the aircraft wires?
MS: No. The, somebody told me who I interviewed told me that the Germans, before the war, sometime before 1939 brought a balloon right up the river.
RH: Oh, Hull got bombed by airship.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. It got bombed and my dad said, he said, ‘The damned thing went right over,’ he said, ‘I wouldn’t mind but, in some parts, it took the chimney pots off.’ Yeah. It went over and then I don’t know if it was a British one or what but one come down in the Humber. Right in the middle. It landed on a sandbank I think but I don’t know what happened to them.
MS: No.
RH: But yeah. No. Them balloons. They had them on the Humber.
MS: The barrage balloons.
RH: On the barges yeah, didn’t they?
MS: Yeah.
RH: But again, when I lived on Beverley Road on where, just at Stepney Lane a balloon broke loose from one of the parks. The Pearson’s Park.
MS: That’s it.
RH: Yeah. It broke. The RAF had this balloon thing so as kids we used to go and watch it. And they used to [wham?] didn’t they in them days and one broke loose and of course it went bumped across all these chimneys. And [laughs] and in the end it come down in Nicholson Street or somewhere which is here somewhere. It says there Stepney Lane. Where’s Stepney Lane?
MS: Stepney Lane runs across.
RH: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: There’s Stepney Lane.
RH: Yeah. Oh, that’s it. yes. So, it came down Nicholson Street any road and it finished up everybody had silver shopping bags after that.
MS: Because they were made of a silver material.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Oh right.
RH: Yeah. If you asked anybody in Hull about silver shopping bags getting on, they’ll tell you what, what it was. It come down and as I said I think they just let the women help themselves to it because I don’t know what happened to it. But yeah, that took all the chimneys off as it was going. Rolling over. So, they couldn’t get hold of it because it just kept bump, bump. Over the tops. So yeah, it’s —
MS: Do you remember, do you remember the war ending?
RH: Do I —?
MS: Remember the end of the war? Do you remember the end being declared?
RH: Oh yeah. When we all were, yeah, and all the town lit up and all that. Oh yeah. And the Yanks. They had jeeps, didn’t they? We had bikes didn’t we but they had jeeps. But yeah, the, a lot of the bombed building areas obviously they piled all the wood and lit it so there were bonfires all over. The Yanks was giving kids, me and all of us was climbing on the jeeps and they was riding around with us. And I mean it was a treat. We’d never. We were still using ruddy tram cars in, in Hull at that time.
MS: Do you remember the rationing?
RH: Eh?
MS: Do you remember the rationing?
RH: Oh God yes. Yes. I do. I do. Yeah. I do. Yeah. Certainly, do yeah.
MS: Were you, were you short of food or hungry?
RH: Oh God. Always. Always. Yeah. I mean they used to queue up for [pause] I’ve been where one of the, my grandmother’s daughters, I went with her and I think we was queuing, it was either for whale meat or what was the other one Mary? Whale meat or horse meat was it? Yeah.
MD: Horse meat.
RH: Yeah. And queuing for whale meat. If we could get some get it, you know. Bloody big queue and you’d stand there [shiver noises]
MS: Freezing.
RH: Yeah. And when you came out you came out with a little packet. But they made a meal of it. Tripe, you know. Stuff like that. Some of the houses, if they could get hold of flour and stuff in them days they used to do, we used to call them hot cakes in Yorkshire. And they was about that big and that thick. Homemade. About an inch deep but what they used to do is you used to get up at five in the morning and go to Mrs Jackson down the Street. She’d open a front bedroom window and she’d sell them. Them cakes. When they’ve gone, they’ve gone?
MS: Yeah.
RH: And then another day somebody would, you’d say, ‘Get down there tomorrow she’s doing scones,’ you know. And this is how it used to be. And as kids we used to love it, think it was great. One house used to do some meat pies. I often wonder what was in them [laughter] but they used to do meat pies but when you went you got a meat pie but obviously they was cut into three and four but at the same time you took your jug with you and you had your meat pie and they give you a jug of gravy to go with it. But this was the people. That’s what I’m saying. They’re the type of people who wants to share everything. You know. Nothing was, nothing was yours. You shared everything which, which meant Mary knows about. The same thing. It was, it was stick together and we’ll beat the buggers, you know.
MS: Right.
RH: You know.
MS: What did you do after the war then? You were still at school.
RH: The what?
MS: You were still at school after the war.
RH: I would say yes. Yes. And as I say we left at fourteen and as I say I went to that tan yard. The only reason I went there was because my step-mother wanted money. And by my going there it was a mucky, filthy, stinking job so you got money. So, when I come out the army, I went back just, which you had to because they kept your job open didn’t they, for you to, you know. So, I went back and then I thought hang on you’ve just been in the Catering Corps. You’ve been up to Catterick. You’ve been to Aldershot. You’ve passed all the courses. Why don’t you go for chefing? Which I did do and it wasn’t long and I made head chef in a big place, didn’t I? At Cottingham. I took Mary to show where I used to be and then I come over to Lincoln. I’d run The Green Dragon for a bit and then The Centurion and then I had my own place up the High Street. I used to do a lot of RAF dos. They was a bloody nuisance at times but —
MS: What place did you run on the High Street?
RH: The Lindum Restaurant was, it was above the mini-market in them days. We used to do dancing.
MS: Oh right.
RH: And all that. But we used to get a lot from Scampton. A lot of parties. There used to be, I used to know all the sergeants in them days and they was good as far as they’d always pinch stuff. Always pinched stuff when they had a drink. They used to get plastered. So, I used to check up and then I’d ring him up and say, ‘Right. I’m missing one soda syphon,’ [laughter] so and so. He’d say, ‘Don’t worry Ron. I’ve got them here.’ You know. And he’d come back and bring them back and he’d say, ‘Anything, we’ll pay for it. Any damage,’ you know. So, I used to have loads of dinners and dances with them, so, you know, but that’s how I got in to Lincoln. I married a Washingborough girl and we lived in Hull for about ten years and then she decided she wanted to come back to mummy.
MS: Right.
RH: And daddy. So, I did. Her father used to say to me, ‘We stood in Washingborough watching Hull burn. And we couldn’t do a thing about it.’ And then anybody I talked to in the RAF would say, ‘When we come out of Norway, we could watch Hull burning from Norway. Could actually see it,’ and you’d think, good God.
MS: That’s a coincidence. I interviewed someone in Washingborough.
RH: Isn’t it?
MS: And they told me exactly what you said.
RH: Is it?
MS: Somebody told me exactly what you’ve just said.
RH: Had they?
MS: They could stand on the side of the river.
RH: Yeah.
MS: In Washingborough or in Heighington.
RH: Yeah.
MS: And just see what fires.
RH: What fires. Yes. Yeah. They did and as I said as far as, well the other side of the North Sea they used to see it. In fact I’ve got a tape somewhere, years old and it’s a chap in a ship and he’s saying, ‘We’ve just come,’ I think it was barge, ‘Come out of Lincoln into the Humber but,’ he said, ‘We’re stuck here, we can’t go across to Hull because we’re stood here watching it get blown to smithereens. And we’ve got families there and we can’t do a thing about it’ And I thought well that’s says it all doesn’t it?
MS: Did you witness the fires when you were a child? Did you see the fires?
RH: Oh God yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh aye. My dad made sure I did. He used to — there was a big museum in Hull and, a massive thing, I’ll always remember it. It had aeroplanes along the ceilings and that. A museum. My dad took me one morning. He said, ‘Come and have a look where I was last night.’ We went and it was, it had got a direct hit. Everything was lost in it. All records. Everything, you know and I says, ‘Oh dear,’ and he says, ‘Yeah we was here all night. This is where your dad’s been all night with this fire.’ And as they did one, you see, there was another but I don’t know if you know they had things like runners. Did you, did you know?
MS: No.
RH: All over Hull was children of maybe fourteen or fifteen with a bike and they used to stand on corners so if they stood here and say you’re there and that bomb fell they would jump on their bike and get to the nearest fire brigade or whatever there was.
MS: Yeah.
RH: To inform them what had happened because there was quite a few bombs landed in gardens and didn’t go off. Them little kids jumped on their bikes and off like mad and they used to run around and that, that was genuine that. And that was their job. Just, just running. Just telling them there’s a bomb dropped in so and so street so they’d say in a minute or they’d send someone down you know and things like that and then clear the area but there’s quite a lot. Years after the war they found them butterfly bombs.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Stuck in, in the lofts. Blokes would go in the lofts and say, ‘Oh my God, you’ve got two stuck,’ [laughs] you know. And there was, there was —
MS: Hull got it.
RH: The, the incendiary. The flat bottomed bomb with the thing on the top. My dad literally and I’ve said to Mary I can’t believe it now when I think. People would say, ‘Len, I’ve had a bomb dropped in the back and it hasn’t gone off.’ And he’d say ok and he’d go around and bring it and I think I was sat next to him. and he used to be, ‘Don’t worry it’s only one of them.’ And it would be an incendiary would it maybe?
MS: Yeah.
RH: They was. They was flat.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Flat but like that and then the blades on hasn’t it?
MS: That’s it.
RH: Yeah. And he used to do that and he’d say that’s it. That’s alright and I’d be there [laughter]
MS: And you’re miming your father disarming an incendiary bomb with you sitting next to him.
RH: Yeah. I know but I look back on it and you think it can’t be right. This can’t be.
MS: It probably was.
RH: But it, it’s how they was. He was saving some family being blown possibly so he thought well if I do it it’s only my son and me [laughter] you know. But no, it’s, it is strange. It’s strange when I look back on it now. It’s, It’s, yeah, it is unbelievable but —
MS: Did you actually witness any bombing? Did you see any bombing yourself?
RH: Well no because we run for the nearest cover didn’t, we?
MS: Yeah.
RH: But, I mean, you knew who was dropping them. You’d see. See them come over. One’d come over and you’d think oh my God. I stayed with an aunt. Oh, on there, it’s on the map up here. I stayed with an aunt and opposite her, like where your car is, there was big guns.
MS: Oh right.
RH: So, on the night the houses were [imitating buzzing sound] when there was. But in that field where they was a flying bomb landed. That was one of the first the British got. It didn’t go off. It come down. They got it and found out a lot from it, didn’t you say?
MS: Yeah.
RH: Wouldn’t you say. And I remember we had the shelters in the garden. They built the shelters didn’t they and soil over it and that.
MS: Oh. The Andersons.
RH: We come out, yeah, we came out of one of them and then I says, ‘Oh,’ and she says, ‘Oh God, look at that,’ and there was this Jerry bomber stuck in the actual house a few doors up.
MS: A bomber.
RH: Well yeah. The big, well a big plane, yeah.
MS: Right. No, no.
RH: It wasn’t a fighter.
MS: No. I was making sure you weren’t saying a bomb.
RH: Yeah.
MS: It was an actual aeroplane.
RH: Yeah. No, and it was actually stuck in the roof, this thing and they just said, ‘Oh well. They brought that bugger down didn’t they?’ That was it, you know. You’d think that they needed medals didn’t they? You know, you look at it now they could be sirs, weren’t they? Sirs and ladies. Yeah.
MS: Absolutely. I know. I know.
RH: But no, I mean you didn’t actually see. You used to hear them. You could hear [whistling] You knew they was coming down you see, but no its, it’s just everyday life. It was then I’m afraid and you had to put up with it didn’t you? What could you do?
MS: You got on with it.
RH: You, well you couldn’t do anything.
MS: No.
RH: Again, you look at it, you know I think about all these old people and you think, you know, most of them are on the disk there. These people that got clobbered and you think what the hell was it all about?
MS: How many people died in Hull?
RH: Oh dear [pause] I got all this for you, look.
MS: I know. You’re a star.
RH: The big bombing do’s lot.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Just times.
MS: You said earlier —
RH: There you are.
MS: There we go. Right.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Let’s have a look.
RH: You’ve got over, yeah. There’s one thousand two hundred people, look. Lost their lives.
MS: Yeah.
RH: But these, they make it clear these were only the people they found. There’s all them what was never found. There’s three, three thousand look, people were seriously injured. Out of the one thousand, well a hundred and ninety two thousand houses look. There’s only five left look.
MS: Only five thousand escaped damage did they?
RH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look. So, it’s two hundred and fifty two thousand, look. Houses, churches.
MS: You’ve got there a hundred and fifty two thousand people were homeless at one time or another.
RH: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: Right.
RH: So, you can have that.
MS: Thank you. That’s very kind.
RH: I don’t know if these are any good to you. I mean —
MS: Are you sure you want to hand these over because —
RH: No. Actually, I bought them because I’ve already got them.
MS: Right.
RH: Actually, Fosse School was it? No, it was Robert Patt’s. The teacher gave them, gave them some, you see. I mean that’s the shelter you saw. That’s that thing. That’s what we had to put up with every day. Look.
MS: What’s that there? What is it?
RH: These are all, yeah, bombings. That’s a shelter what —
MS: That’s an Anderson shelter flattened.
RH: Yeah.
MS: You’re showing me a photograph of a house that’s been bombed and next to it is the remains of the Anderson shelter.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Which is totally flattened.
RH: Yeah. So that’s that. That’s your Spitfire thing raising money wasn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
RH: For the Spitfire. That’s another mess look.
MS: Right.
RH: Firemen and that, digging. Look. And air raid wardens.
MS: That’s one of your balloons on a barge.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. That’s it. And that’s that thing. That’s the cenotaph because there’s only two in Britain. You know that do you?
MS: No. I knew about the cenotaph in London.
RH: No.
MS: But there’s one in Hull.
RH: There’s only, there’s only two. That’s one in London. One in Hull.
MS: Right.
RH: And the funny thing is it’s a Royal Lincolnshire Regiment bloke mentioned on these. Yeah.
MS: Right.
RH: Yeah. So, as I say that’s the, the thing, look. That is my, that’s well that’s that one that you’ve got isn’t it?
MS: Yeah. Is there anything else you think of that you want to talk about on the archive? You know. The Digital Archive.
RH: The what? Sorry.
MS: Is there anything else that you want to record? Your memory.
RH: No.
MS: For the Digital Archive.
RH: Not really. Not really. That’s about your zeppelin look.
MS: Let’s have a look.
RH: I’ll give you them look, because I did them.
MS: Right.
RH: I got them for you because you said that you might be interested, you see. So —
MS: Well it’s been very useful using the map.
RH: So, I thought, well, you can.
MS: Yeah. Let’s have a look.
RH: You can use them. That is — I told you I lost my mother.
MS: Yes.
RH: I tried to find the grave. Nobody would tell me where she was. Even her sisters. Nobody would ever told me where she was. So, about four year back or so I went to Hull and my brother and his wife said, ‘Well, we’ll find out.’ So, they rang up, Henry, and we got an interview. So, we went down and this bloke gets this book out and he says, ‘Yes. I know where she’s buried.’ So, and so. And then he said, ‘Hang on, it says refer to another book.’ So, he opens another book and he says, ‘Oh. Your mother, a brother, two children and your grandad. Your great grandad. They’re all in the same grave’. And I says, ‘Five in a grave?’ He says, ‘Yes, they are.’ So, I says, ‘What do we do?’ This chap took us down. He showed us a blade of grass and he says, ‘There you are, look. In there. They’re in there. But we can’t tell you where because in them days they had a piece of wood and somebody kicked them out the way.’ So, he says, ‘They’re in there somewhere.’ And he stood like this on this stone and he says, ‘Number 287,’ or whatever it was. And then he looked and he says, ‘Hang on a minute. This stone’s 287.’ So, we walked around the other side and it’s a war grave.
MS: Oh.
RH: Big Royal Lincoln’s badge on it. And he says, ‘Do you know where Lincoln is?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ And he says, ‘Well, do you know ought about the Royal Lincolnshire Regiment?’ I said, ‘Yes. I was with them.’ So, he says, ‘Well isn’t that something.’ He says, ‘This is your grandad’s war grave.’ And I says, ‘But why is there all these other people in it? Children and that. He says, ‘I don’t know.’
MS: It was the war.
RH: And it’s a, and it’s a new one It’s not that little one, it’s a nice one. And it’s a big one where the war graves are narrow aren’t they, you know? Yeah. And beautiful stone. So that was just the area look. Where he is.
MS: And what a coincidence that your mother’s buried in that site of the regiment you later joined.
RH: I know, it’s, I can’t understand the children. And so, I’ve looked it all up, Henry, and [laughter] why it’s been kept quiet is because one of my aunts was two little children, her husband was in the First World War wasn’t he? And it’s his grave.
MS: Right.
RH: So, he died of gas I reckon because he died, its reading six months after the war finished.
MS: Right.
RH: So, I bet he’s come home and he’s, he’s, he must have had gas.
MS: It might have been flu.
RH: Or whatever.
MS: Do you remember the flu that killed millions?
RH: Oh well.
MS: It could have been that. It got my grandad.
RH: Could be then. Yeah. And so that’s why. Nobody can understand it. The bloke who did it says, ‘I’ve never known it.’ He said, ‘I look after all these graves but I’ve never heard of one with a war grave with children,’ and, and you know and sons and daughters in it. He said, ‘It’s unbelievable.’ So, so as I say I do go over and I bought a thing for it you know for my mother to get over, you know. But it’s right next to Hull Fair actually so [laughs] so she gets livened up every year, you know. But, yeah, that’s about all I can say, tell you.
MS: Well first of all can I thank you.
RH: That’s alright.
MS: On behalf of the IBCC.
RH: That’s alright.
MS: Can I also thank you on behalf of myself because I found it really an interesting chat.
RH: Yeah. Yeah.
MD: Good.
MS: I’ve got a couple of forms.
RH: You don’t have to pay for the coffee before that.
MS: The coffee was awful [laughs] It was. I was forced to drink it [laughs] Right.
RH: [laughs] Is it what you wanted?
MS: It is.
RH: Is it?
MS: Absolutely. And what [coughs] Sorry I’ve got a frog in my throat.
RH: Yeah.
MS: What I need to do, I need to take you through some paperwork now. I’m going to ask you to sign something in a second.
RH: Yeah.
MS: And what it confirms is that you’re quite happy that you took part in the interview.
RH: Yes.
MS: No problem with that? And you’re giving the copyright to the university.
RH: Yes.
MS: For use in any media. Yeah. They will look after your personal details.
RH: Yeah.
MS: They will not disclose those.
RH: Yeah. Well there’s nothing.
MS: No. But you need to know for your protection.
RH: Yeah. Yeah.
MS: Yeah. Are you happy, do you agree that your name can be associated with the interview? So, if they played the interview to somebody or let them see it.
RH: Yeah.
MS: They’ll know it’s Ron Harrison but they’ll keep back all your other details. Ok?
RH: Yeah.
MS: So, tick that.
RH: That’s fine. Yeah.
MS: Ok. Do you allow me to take a photograph of you?
RH: No. No. You can take one.
MS: No problem. Yeah.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Ok. And do you agree to the interview being available online? So that someone could come along with a computer and go, ‘I’ll listen to that guy there.’ Are you happy with that?
RH: Well it wouldn’t hurt would it. Would it?
MS: No.
RH: Would it? It wouldn’t hurt would it?
MS: Well, the other thing is have you got grandchildren?
RH: Yes. I’ve, yes, I’ve got six.
MS: Have you? Well they’ll be able to go online and go to the International Bomber Command Centre and actually listen to you talking.
RH: Oh.
MS: And when, in the years to come when you’re not here that interview will still be there.
RH: Oh good.
MS: Ok. And what it says down here is —
RH: Do you take the daft bits out? Or do you leave —
MS: No. They’re the best bits, Ron.
[laughter]
RH: Oh dear [laughter]
MS: They are.
RH: They’ll be saying, ‘Why does that bloke keep saying eh?’ Eh?
MS: It’s because you’re from Hull. Right. I used to live next door to a bloke from Hull.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Right. I’m going to shorten this. It’s the responsibilities of the archive. Basically, they aim to be a really comprehensive repository. A holding place, for this information, and it’s to do with research and education.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Yeah. It’s housed and managed by the University of Lincoln and the University undertakes to finance, preserve and protect everything to do with it including donations. Yeah.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Now, over here they will need to confidentially and securely store your details in case they need to contact you about this agreement. Right. For any more information on how they store and use such stuff, such stuff, if you go to online, you’ll be able to find that.
RH: Right.
MS: But do you use a computer at all?
RH: No. Not now. I did do but no I don’t.
MS: You don’t.
RH: No. To be honest we’ve got to that age where technology is getting left behind.
MS: I know what you mean.
RH: Isn’t it?
MS: It goes on to say that the details that you’ve provided like your address and all the rest of it.
RH: Yeah.
MS: Will not be made publicly available. And then it goes on to say the agreement is covered by English law.
RH: Yeah.
MS: And I’ve signed down here because I’m the person who interviewed you. if you’re happy with all that would you put your signature in there for me please.
RH: Yeah.
MS: So if I give you that to lean on. Sorry, if you sign there for me. And I’ll stop this now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ron Harrison
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Michael Sheehan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisonRL181101, PHarrisonRL1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--Hull
England--Yorkshire
Format
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00:56:18 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
As a child, Ron Harrison witnessed the bombing of Hull. He describes what it was like to be a child exploring the bombed out areas of the city with his young friends. His father was a fireman and while he was attending fires in the dock area their family home was hit. Fortunately Ron had been staying with his grandmother that night. Ron recalls his father salvaging a toy lorry which had been badly damaged and was found in the wreckage. He repaired it for Ron and it remained as a much loved family heirloom. He describes how the firemen would make toys for the children who had lost everything in the air raids. Ron recalls a gathering of local lads who were off to join their Navy ship and the party to wish them well. All were lost when the ship was later attacked. He recalls the rationing and the spirit of the local people around him towards the bombing. Ron also recalls the night when residents thought the war was over and all assembled in the town centre to celebrate. The lights came on but a lone Luftwaffe plane descended and attacked the crowd killing twelve. Ron also describes the day the war ended when the children were being driven around the town centre in the American jeeps.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
final resting place
heirloom
home front
memorial
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/865/10825/AGillRA-JT170930.2.mp3
ee2bdb54a700a6de722a519acf341d1e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hazeldene, Peter
Peter Vere Hazeldene
P V Hazeldene
Description
An account of the resource
19 items. An oral history interview with Rachel and John Gill about their father, Peter Hazeldene DFC (b. 1922, 553414 Royal Air Force) and 16 other items including log book, memoirs, medals and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 106 and 57 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rachel and John Gill and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hazeldene, PV
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 30th of September 2017. I’m in North Hykeham with Terry and Rachel Gill and we’re going to talk about Pete Hazeldene, Hazeldene, who was Rachel’s father, and his experiences in the RAF. So we start talking to Rachel. What do you know about dad in his earliest life?
RG: Well, I know he was the eldest child of seven and he was born in Barry Island. Dad always loved the sea and I think this is, was because he was born near the sea. He had diphtheria as a very small boy and was in an Isolation Hospital. He was a member of the choir, sang in the choir and an altar boy. And then they moved to, to Cardiff. Dad enjoyed life. He loved camp. He loved to go and take, with his friend take his tent to the bottom of Caerphilly Hill. And —
CB: What did his father do?
RG: Oh, Grandpa was in a drawing office in Cardiff. Grandma stayed at home with all these children. Dad left school around about fifteen and was an errand boy for a jewellers but his love of the Air Force started when he saw a poster in a window offering to see the world from a different angle. And that’s when dad decided he would join the Air Force. Grandpa was against it because he wanted him to join the Welsh Regiment but dad was adamant and away he went. I’m not quite sure if grandpa signed his forms or whether it was Grandma. Dad joined the Air Force and came as a boy entrant to Cranwell.
CB: So this is 1939. Beginning of ’39.
RG: Yes.
CB: Although he’d showed his interest in 1938.
RG: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
RG: He was, he did the training in Cranwell as a, what did he do? Wireless operator.
CB: Just stop there a mo.
RG: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Doing technical training.
TG: Technical training.
RG: Oh right. Yeah.
TG: With a —
[recording paused]
CB: So, tell us a bit more about him leaving home.
RG: It was quite an adventure coming to Lincolnshire for dad because it was his very first time he’d left home and his very first time he’d actually been out of Cardiff. Out of Wales. And he got here as a sixteen year old and he never left Lincolnshire all his life.
CB: So, we’re going to get Terry to talk about the technicalities here because he came to Cranwell as a boy entrant in the days when they were doing that sort of training at Cranwell. So what do we know about that?
TG: Well, from what he told us and from the books we have that he wrote at the time, his technical notes, he was being trained on radio and electrical theory. And at that time of course he was too young to join aircrew but when the war did break out he did volunteer for bomber crew and he was accepted for that. He was sent from Cranwell to a Gunnery School at Upper Heyford and he trained on wireless op, as a wireless operator and he was trained in Morse Code. Subsequent to that training he joined or was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Finningley.
CB: I think as a wireless operator/air gunner then he went to an outpost somewhere to be trained in gunnery.
TG: Yes. He went West Freugh.
CB: West Freugh.
TG: Freugh. Yes.
CB: In Scotland.
TG: Yes. His first flight was from West Freugh in March I think it was. 1940.
CB: Right.
TG: According to his log book.
CB: So he would have just been eighteen then.
TG: He would. Yes. He’d just turned eighteen a couple of months before. And obviously he was successful and then was sent to Finningley.
CB: Right. Just stop there a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re just going to go back to the Cranwell experience because he’s away from home and there are things there that are different —
RG: Yes.
CB: From being in Wales. So —
RG: Very different. His mum was a very good cook and there was always very good portions for the family but at Cranwell the portions were very small and obviously it didn’t meet dad’s appetite. So the only thing that he could fill up on was cabbage. Dad hated cabbage but he learned that, you know if he wanted to feel full cabbage was the way forward and eventually got to like it and grew them. Yeah.
CB: Extraordinary. But he was being trained in ground radio and electrical activities so most likely he then did some work on the ground.
TG: He did. I understand it was at Abingdon to start with before he was posted to Finningley.
CB: Before he did his gunnery course.
TG: Before his gunnery course. Yes.
CB: Yes. So while he was at Abingdon he, it sounds as though it was when he was there that he volunteered for aircrew.
TG: That’s right. He, after, he then attended a gunnery course and was posted to Finningley where he then flew as a wireless operator and air gunner with 106 Squadron.
CB: What aircraft were they flying?
RG: Hampdens.
TG: They were Hampdens at the time.
CB: Right.
TG: And he later, he was posted with 106 Squadron to Coningsby. And he did thirty operations with 106 Squadron. One of his pilots was a chap called Bob Wareing who on one particular raid they attacked the Schnarhorst and the Gneisenau in Brest and they were successful in putting that ship out of action. And the Scharnhorst. And for that raid I understand that his pilot was awarded the DFC and Peter was mentioned in dispatches. At the end of his thirty raids, thirty operations he, he was posted to Polebrook and seconded to the Americans. But I should add that whilst he was Finningley of course they used to occasionally listen to Lord Haw Haw who correctly broadcast that the clock in the sergeant’s mess was ten minutes slow. Which he often used to laugh about, didn’t he? Your father. That he was correct in Lord Haw Haw. But whilst he was at Polebrook with the Americans he flew in their B17s and he taught them wireless operations and Morse Code. And he flew quite on a few, on a few training exercises with them. One particular rather unsavoury incident took place when he took the class out, of Americans to a pub one night. Amongst them was a black crew.
RG: American.
TG: American crewman. And while in the pub the American military police came in and dragged the black lad out, beat him up and dragged him away because he was in the wrong sort of pub. They say. Your father couldn’t really understand it could he? Peter couldn’t. Pete couldn’t understand that. They charged, the barman charged your dad sixpence. Peter, Pete was charged sixpence because in the melee they broke a beer glass. But he, he never forgot that incident and he couldn’t really rationalise it. It was not what he had expected so to speak. On another occasion he told us that the flight engineer went berserk on the aircraft and in order to subdue him Peter had to, or Pete had to knock him out with an ammo box. I understand there was, and he was grounded for LMF afterwards. Not Pete. The flight engineer.
CB: The American. American flight engineer.
TG: No. No.
RG: No, this was —
TG: This was while he was at Finningley.
RG: Yeah.
CB: Oh, Finningley. Oh, right.
TG: Yeah. Sorry. I’m getting things out of order aren’t I, a little bit?
CB: Yeah. Right.
TG: Slightly. Doesn’t matter.
CB: Ok. So this is 106 Squadron.
TG: As far as I remember it was 106.
CB: At Finningley.
TG: Yes. On another occasion that they went on a couple of gardening missions which was obviously dropping the mines. But they’d got one on board still after this operation and they ventured into France to see whether they could drop this mine somewhere else. And they didn’t take much notice of it but a light aircraft gun opened fire on them and as far as they were aware nothing had happened but when they landed the rear gunner was dead and the thing was awash with blood. His area. And they could never get rid of that blood off that aircraft however much they washed it.
CB: We’ll stop there.
RG: Yes, I—
[recording paused]
CB: So, just going back to the gardening bit.
TG: Gardening of course was dropping mines into the sea and to do that one had to fly very low otherwise the mines would break up. So when they flew in over the land they would also be very low and in range of the, the light anti-aircraft gun that obviously caught the rear gunner.
CB: What sort of anecdotes did he have about training and what was going on there? So, on the airfield.
TG: Well, he did tell me on more than one occasion that he recalled two acts that appeared to be of sabotage when he was, I think training as a gunner. On one occasion he said, on one evening or one night five aircraft who weren’t parked together caught fire almost simultaneously. On another occasion he was on board an aircraft which, as it took off and it had taken off only managed to travel just over the perimeter of the airfield when they crash landed in to a field and the aircraft caught fire. They all managed to get out although Peter said he was burned a little bit. Such was the mark of the man. But when the aircraft was examined because it had failed to gain height the chain that operated the elevators had a, had a bolt inserted in to stop it from operating fully. What became of any enquiry into that he didn’t know and I don’t know. So that was a couple of sort of sad incidents, or suspicious incidents that he, he mentioned to us.
CB: What affect did the loss of the rear gunner have on the rest of the crew?
TG: He never said because —
RG: Dad passed out.
TG: Your father passed out, I think. Peter —
RG: At the sight of the blood.
TG: Pete passed out at the sight of the blood when they landed. But as I’ve already indicated that however much they tried to clean that aircraft the stains of that blood remained. But I rather think that was with 106 Squadron.
CB: And that would need a replacement. So how did the replacement fit in to the crew? Do we know about that?
TG: Peter never said. He didn’t elaborate too much on that side of the operations. He never really mentioned the losses he witnessed when he was on the raids. Although we do know that those losses and what happened haunted him for the rest of his life.
CB: Because this is the early part of the war we’re talking about here.
TG: Yes.
CB: So the Americans came in in ’42.
TG: Yes.
CB: That’s why they were getting help. So what else did he tell you about dealing with the Americans? Working with the Americans.
RG: One story was that dad had been on, I can’t tell you where he’d been on the raid but he was flying back and the aircraft had got minor damage and they couldn’t make it back to East Kirkby. So they had to fly and land lower down the country. Was it lower? Or upper? Well, he landed —
TG: South.
RG: Yes. And dad was doing the Morse Code. The colours of the day and who they were etcetera and he flew over an American base and they opened fire on them. And dad was firing away, not firing away, he was doing his Morse Code. Who he was and the aircraft. And eventually after they’d fired at them, eventually the penny dropped who they were and they landed. They were escorted. The crew were escorted by gunpoint to a higher level. Dad and his crew should have been in the officer’s mess but they weren’t. They were separated. Eventually the aircraft was made airworthy and they took off. And being as they were a whole load of young lads they raided the stores and filled it with toilet rolls. Filled the bomb bay with toilet rolls. They should have flown off and come home to East Kirkby but no. Young lads as they were the pilot did a turn around and as they flew over the airfield the bomb bays opened, the toilet rolls flew out and dad tapped away, you historically say, ‘You crapped on us [laughs] Here’s the bumph to go with it.’ When they got back to East Kirkby they thought oh my goodness we’re all going to be in trouble but nothing was ever said. So, yes. That was, and dad didn’t have a great love of the Americans.
CB: This is, this is later in the war we’re talking about here.
RG: Yes. Later. Yes.
CB: But it’s prompted by the earlier point about being at Polebrook.
RG: Yes.
TG: So —
RG: The Americans. Yeah.
CB: What else do we know about when he was there?
TG: After thirty operations which Peter thankfully survived he volunteered and was, as I say an instructor, went as an instructor to the US Air Force at Polebrook. Teaching them Morse Code and wireless operations procedure and I think we’ve already mentioned about this business about going to the pub haven’t we?
CB: Yes.
TG: Shall I read —
CB: What other, what other experiences did he have with them?
TG: Well, they, they used to fly all over the country of course but Peter at that time, I’m not sure if that time he was probably married to Olive which we’ll come to later but, who was at Spalding in South Lincolnshire and he used to persuade the Americans to land at Sutton Bridge which was only about fifteen miles from Spalding, when he’d been on a trip with them. And he’d disembark from the aircraft and he’d cadge a lift one way or another into Spalding to see Olive. So he was using them as a rather an expensive taxi but it served his purpose very well.
RG: Mum and dad met when dad was visiting a crew member who’d got badly burned in an aircraft and, I don’t think it was one of dad’s crew but it was a fellow RAF man. And he was at Stamford Hospital and I think they went on a motorbike, two of them to see, to visit this friend and they stopped back at Spalding obviously for a beer or two. And they went to the Greyhound down Broad Street in Spalding and my mum was, Olive was the bar maid there. And obviously there was some attraction and dad kept visiting. Yeah. But that’s where they first met. And if he hadn’t have wanted a beer and pulled in they would never have met. And mum and dad were married in April 1942.
CB: So, how did they keep contact during the war?
RG: I think it was dad visiting home. They lived at, with my nan in Little London which is very close to Spalding. I think it was just a question of dad coming and visiting and letters. That sort of thing. Yes.
CB: Ok. So at the end of his posting to Polebrook to assist the Americans.
TG: Yes.
CB: How long was that posting there? Do we know?
TG: Well, he, he volunteered for a second tour and he was posted in 1943. In November 1943 if I recall correctly to Husbands Bosworth where he trained with a [pause] with his second crew. A rookie crew.
CB: That was an OTU.
TG: Yes.
CB: 14 OTU. Yeah.
TG: But from February 1941 he’d been at Coningsby just to go back. He did his thirty raids. Then to Polebrook. And then by November ’43 he, he, he, he went to Husbands Bosworth and there he was crewed up with, as I say the new crew who were under training and the pilot was, flight well then he was flight lieutenant then, but a chap called J B P Spencer who was nicknamed Tuesday for reasons that Peter could never discover. Tuesday was from Durham and from quite a well to do family. They and the rest of the crew after they’d finished training were posted to East Kirkby in the run up basically to D-Day.
CB: And then what was the Squadron number there?
TG: It was 57 Squadron.
CB: Right.
TG: At East Kirkby at the time.
CB: Flying?
TG: Lancasters then.
CB: Well, normally there would be a link of a Heavy Conversion Unit between the OTU and the Squadron but it’s possible they didn’t have them operating at that time. When did he go to East Kirkby?
TG: In March 1944.
CB: Ok.
TG: That’s from memory but —
CB: Stop there briefly.
TG: I’m sure it is.
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re chopping and changing a bit but let’s just go back to Finningley.
RG: [unclear]
CB: So what, what, yes what anecdotes do we have about dad flying in Finningley?
RG: Well, I haven’t any recollection of dad talking about it at the time of that he was in there but later on life I and my husband went on holiday and we flew. It was then Robin Hood Airport and we flew from Finningley as it was and dad said oh, well his pilot, Spencer was rubbish at flying. Flying a plane. He would just throw it in to the sky and when he landed he would equally do the same. It was always a hit and miss affair whether they actually got down ok. Dad said that Finningley had got a crosswind and you had to fly, land it sort of diagonal. I didn’t believe him really but off we went on this holiday. And when we came back the wind was that strong that we basically had to fly as dad had said that his Spencer did. But it was typical. We landed and we were home. But yes. So Finningley has never got any better over the years. Or is it the pilots?
CB: Or is it the crosswind?
RG: Crosswind. Well, yes I suppose it’s how, how the airfield is. Mind you they don’t call them airfields now, do they?
CB: Well, it’s an airport now.
RG: An airport. Yeah. But to me they’ll be aerodromes.
CB: Home of the Vulcan. Yes.
RG: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Right.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
TG: Right. From the OTU at Husbands Bosworth and at Market Harborough Pete then was posted to the HCU at Wigsley where they flew Stirlings. And then on to Syerston where he —
CB: Lancaster Flying School.
TG: Well, the —
CB: Finishing School.
TG: The Lancaster Finishing School, I beg your pardon at Syerston where I think they’d also pick up the engineer, would they not?
CB: They would have done that at Wigsley.
TG: Yeah. Sorry at Wigsley.
CB: Yes. But he doesn’t mention that in his tour because it’s expanding the crew to the final seventh man.
TG: I see. He never, he never mentioned much about some details.
CB: No. Then he went on to his second operational Squadron which was?
TG: 57 Squadron.
CB: Yeah.
TG: Where —
CB: That was, where was that?
TG: East Kirkby.
CB: Right.
TG: And that was in April 1944.
CB: Right. We’ll stop there for a mo. Thank you.
[recording paused]
TG: The attrition rate was very very high.
CB: So he joined 57 Squadron in 1944.
TG: Yes.
CB: Early part of ’44. Didn’t he?
TG: With Tuesday Spencer as his pilot. And the rest of the crew, Clarke, West, Hughes-Games, and Grice and George I think his name was. And they flew twenty five missions and I think they were very intense at the time. The enemy fire and such. But they managed to survive it but at the end of the twenty five raids Peter was told by the commanding officer he could not continue to fly. He’d had, he needed a rest and he was stood down. And he went for about ten days leave and when he came back he discovered that the rest of his crew were dead or at least missing. And it transpired that they’d been shot down on the 31st of August 1944 after a raid on the railway yards at Joigny La Roche. About a hundred and twenty kilometres south west I think of Paris. And when he arrived back on base he was summoned to the station commander’s office where he was introduced to Tuesday Spencer’s parents who wanted to meet him as the friend of their late son. And —
RG: Twenty.
TG: Sorry?
RG: The lad was twenty.
TG: He was only twenty years old was Tuesday. And Pete was only a little bit more and they gave Peter five pounds to spend on a good night out.
RG: No. They sent him to mark his commission and his DFC five pounds.
TG: Of the —
RG: Because of their, yes that’s in here. Yeah.
TG: Yeah. And instead of spending it on drink because probably his first inclination would be to do he and Olive decided to spend this money on a pair of candlesticks in memory of the crew. And those candlesticks are still with Rachel’s elder sister. Pride of place on the mantelpiece no doubt. In memory of them. What happened to that crew was that from research we’ve carried out and what Peter was told at the time that the aircraft at least blew up returning from the raid. As far as we can work out. And from, again from records we obtained from the Public Record Office at Kew Hughey, Hughey Hughes-Games was the first to parachute out of the plane followed by Sergeant Grice who Peter didn’t know but was acting as Pete’s replacement while he was stood down. And the Germans later said a third parachute caught fire on the way down but no other men escaped the plane. And the Lanc which was called Q for Queenie ND954 burned out on the ground. Hughes-Games it transpired was taken prisoner of war as was Sergeant Grice and the rest of the crew were killed. And they’re buried at Banneville-La-Campagne near Caen. I might have pronounced that incorrectly. Sadly, Hughes-Games who was interviewed by the Red Cross and from some of the information I’ve given to you about it catching fire and whatever came from him he contracted meningitis and died in, Stalag 3 was it? And is buried in Poland. The rest of the crew as I say are buried near Caen. And I took Peter back there and we’ve been back to their graves several times. Sergeant Grice survived as a prisoner of war and I think he ended up back at home and he lived to be in his mid-eighties in Shropshire. But we never met him and Peter didn’t know him. So that was really the last of his memories of 57 Squadron and the loss of that crew. He did commence a third tour. Incidentally, the crew he lost at 57 Squadron were on their thirty first raid. And it’s commonly thought that thirty was the limit but temporarily it was lifted to thirty five around that time I understand. And sadly on their thirty first raid when they died.
RG: The only plane on that day to be lost from East Kirkby.
TG: On the 31st of July that raid went, basically things were a lot easier for the bombers at that time and it was the only aircraft lost on that raid, on that day from East Kirkby.
CB: How did he feel about the loss of his crew?
TG: Peter never spoke much about the experience he had until he retired from his business when he was about seventy. And I discussed it at great length with him and I took him as I say back to France, down to Kew, to Runnymede, St Martin in the Fields. All the Memorials because he started to open up but he never gave much detail about the bad side of it. He mentioned the crew had been killed and he was quite matter of fact about it but that was the surface.
RG: Say now about dad’s nightmares all his life.
TG: But subconsciously we know that he, he was greatly affected by, by his experiences. You’ve got to bear in mind that he, his flying hours exceeded a thousand. A thousand hours in these, in these terrible conditions. I mean they weren’t sitting back. They were bitterly cold, frightened to death and as he often told us more ammunition was wasted on the Morning/Evening Star than shooting at other aircraft because they were quite obviously tense and wound up. But when I met him and he was in his mid-forties then occasionally if we were staying there we would hear him in the middle of the night when he was asleep.
RG: [unclear]
TG: And also at our house in later life if he was ill he would start up talking to his skipper on the radio in his sleep. In talking almost as if it was happening. These episodes of talking to the skipper and warning him about approaching aircraft or, ‘Let’s get out of here,’ didn’t last for a few minutes. They would last for hours in, in the night. Where he would, he would start off and then ten minutes later he’d had another instruction to the skipper, the pilot to warn him of approaching aircraft. And this was when Peter was seventy five or eighty years old. This was forty years later. And it was obviously imprinted on his subconscious indelibly and whilst to talk to him it didn’t affect him if he talked about it a lot at a function when he was later in life because as I say he didn’t disclose much at all of, of the worst side of things but it was obviously there underneath. And if he, if he’d been talking to you now like I’m talking to you tonight he would have been flying again. In his sleep.
RG: In the mornings he would say, ‘Oh, my goodness. I’ve been flying all night. All night.’ Right up until he was in hospital and Helen went to see him, my sister and just before he died he was still flying.
CB: So, who used to go and see him in the night?
TG: We —
RG: Me. Usually me. Or when he was with mum, mum would.
TG: Mum.
RG: Yeah. But when he, after my mum died and he would be here with us it would be me.
TG: But he was ok the next day as a rule. The one thing I noticed about him and maybe many, many other bomber crew he didn’t have any friends from those days. Like some of the army chaps. Simply because there were none left. They had all been killed. All his crew had been killed hadn’t they? I think he stayed in touch with Bob Wareing briefly.
RG: Yes.
TG: Until he died. And about [unclear]
RG: He stayed, he stayed friends with a lot of the RAF people.
TG: But they’d not flown with him.
RG: Through his association with the Royal Observer Corps and the RAF Association.
TG: And the British Legion.
RG: And the British Legion. And also he was a member of Fenland Airfield and he loved to go and spend time down there.
TG: But he never knew or could talk to anyone who flew with him.
RG: Except —
TG: On those raids.
RG: Except —
TG: Except on one occasion at the —
RG: Metheringham.
TG: Metheringham. The reunion which was held, held every year of 106 Squadron he bumped into —
RG: Well, he nearly didn’t go.
TG: He nearly didn’t go. He was very ill. Quite ill at the time and it was not that long before Pete’s death. But we took him to Metheringham, to the old airfield and he bumped into a chap and they got talking and it transpired that on the Scharnhorst raid this chap remembered it clearly and had been in another aircraft on that same raid. And he remembered some talk of Peter shooting down an enemy aircraft. But Peter, Pete always said he thought, they thought he had originally but he never claimed it was him, did he?
RG: But he, this gentleman knew the formation. He said, ‘And your pilot pulled out of formation to go in again.’ And it was just listening to these two old gentlemen who were well into their eighties talking as though they were there that present moment. But for two old age people to be there just by chance on that reunion was amazing. Terry has that on video because we’d just got a new video camera. Yeah.
TG: That’s with IBC, they’ve got the copy of that. Well, we’ve got it here.
RG: Yes.
TG: But I video’d that conversation and it’s now been —
CB: Brilliant.
RG: Yeah.
CB: So we’re really talking about 106 Squadron when they were flying Hampdens.
RG: From Metheringham Airfield.
CB: From Metheringham.
RG: This one. Yes.
TG: He’s written Coningsby but it was definitely —
CB: Metheringham.
TG: Well, it was a satellite wasn’t it?
CB: Yes.
TG: He flew from there. He met, he once, he met Gibson once or twice and knew him. He wasn’t a very popular man, was he? Gibson.
CB: No.
TG: Very officious. But it’s not on there is it? Is that switched off?
CB: Yeah. No. No. It isn’t. We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: The matter of how to speak about these things was difficult for most war veterans. Aircrew particularly. Perhaps because of the high losses. But then there’s the effect on the families. So he’s speaking in his sleep in these times.
RG: Yeah.
CB: What affect did that have on you?
RG: Well, I was mainly concerned for Dad’s well-being really and I would go and chat to him. Although he was asleep his eyes would be open and he didn’t really know I was there. But obviously he did and then he would calm and then in the morning he would say, ‘Rachel, I’ve been flying all night.’ And I would say, ‘Yes, dad. I know.’ But he’d no recollection of me being there. But it was, it was quite upsetting to hear that he was, and he was talking and as though you know he was there, ‘Skip, they’re coming in at — ’ so and so, you know, ‘Do we fire now?’ And it was just as though he was there. But obviously, you know it was affecting his mind. And right up until the minute, well not the minute but the day before he died he was still flying. Yeah. It was —
TG: He was eighty one when he died.
RG: But as a child Dad the war was not spoken to about a lot but on the days when Dad would be slightly not well I was told that I’d got to behave because he wasn’t very well. And that was the reason. But yeah. But in the night he didn’t seem to be agitated by it. It was just as though it was happening and he was coping with it.
CB: So it’s no shouting.
RG: No.
CB: It’s just a conversation.
RG: Yes. Yeah. As though —
CB: As though he’s on the intercom.
RG: Yeah.
TG: As calm as you and I now. Controlled. And so and so’s happening, Skip.
RG: Just as though they were getting on with the job.
TG: A normal tone of voice as if and then an hour later or ten minutes later he’d give an update of some sort. ‘Let’s get the bloody [pause] out of here skipper.’ And that was it.
CB: Because he was acting as a lookout.
RG: Yes.
TG: Well, yes.
RG: Yes.
TG: Oh yes.
CB: As a child though you were told that he was, it was a bad day. So what did you feel as a child when you, he had these episodes?
RG: I just took it, I just took it as, as I’ve got, behave myself. I think I was a bit of reckless child but you know I just got to behave myself and that was it [pause] But no, he was, no. Just my dad.
CB: But he was always calm in what he was doing. It was —
RG: Just turn that off a minute.
CB: Yeah. Sure.
[recording paused]
CB: So how did your mother handle this?
RG: Well, very calmly I think. Dad would on, on what I now know was his sort of bad days he would be prone to picking arguments and probably doing a bit of shouting which was quite unusual for dad because he was quite a calm person. But in, you know he would be probably be shouting at mum but I just sort of took it as I’d just got to behave myself and that would be it. But mum always, when dad was like this was always very sort of calm, and well I suppose she was talking him down a bit. But it was never mentioned why he was like it and I just thought oh well other people’s dads shout and that, you know and that was it. But as a general rule he was such a calm sort of person. Took everything in his stride really. But on these occasions that, that used to happen. Yeah.
CB: To what extent do you think over the years he had spoken to your mother about his experiences?
RG: I don’t really know. I wouldn’t. I would imagine not a lot. It was, I wouldn’t, I never overheard them talking about anything but then I wouldn’t always be there but, no it was usually, if dad spoke about anything it wasn’t how it affected him. It was usually telling a tale of what he’d been up to. What raid he’d been on and different aspects of what they, you know, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t the horrors. It was more of the good bits. You know. Tearing about on a motorbike and that sort of thing as you would expect lads of that age to be doing.
TG: And he was only twenty or so.
CB: Yeah.
TG: When all this was —
CB: Yes.
TG: You know, that was the average age of these —
CB: Sure. Oh yes. Absolutely. So she was in the Spalding area.
RG: All the time. Yes.
CB: Surrounded by Air Force. They were married in the war.
RG: Yes.
CB: She continued did she in her bar work?
RG: Yes. She was a nanny and, to a family who had four children and they kept the Greyhound. So in the day mum would be looking after the children. Helping with that sort of thing. And then she would as and when she was required she would be the bar. The bar girl. Yes. So she stayed with the family. Well, they’re godparents to me and later John one of the sons went into partnership with my dad as a nurseryman and, but mum didn’t live always at the Greyhound. She lived with her parents in Little London. And then when my sister Helen was born she, she was with nan and then mum would be continuing to work and home as normal mum’s do. Yeah.
CB: The reason I ask the question is because to some extent she was programmed to the losses and the stoic reaction of the other crews.
RG: Yes. Yes. I don’t honestly know whether it was all talked about but no doubt it would be you know mentioned. You know. Particularly the loss of all the crew. The last, last one.
TG: I’ve mentioned Tuesday and then of course she had the incident with the DFC. Your mum was disappointed.
CB: So what was that?
RG: Well, dad was awarded the DFC. And mum saved all the coupons and my nan, all the coupons for a new outfit. Coat. A new coat was, I think she had it made and, and you know all ready to go to London, to the Palace and then the king was very poorly so of course it, they couldn’t go. And the DFC was given to dad by his commanding officer over the counter more or less at East Kirkby. And it was very, very disappointing for mum not to be going on that.
CB: I can imagine. Yes.
TG: The king did write. We’ve still got the letter of course.
RG: Oh yes. We, yeah.
CB: Not the same as having it —
RG: No. But no —
CB: Conferred on you.
RG: Well, in those days where they lived, a little village. Oh, you know. Olive Hazeldene. She’s going to the Palace, you know. And a new coat was got. You know it’s just, well, it was one of those things isn’t it? The poor old king.
CB: Well, people didn’t travel much in those days so —
RG: No.
CB: It was a major —
RG: It was a big thing.
CB: Task.
RG: Yes.
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: You were, so let’s just catch up on here.
RG: Do you know, I’m really, I’m really a very strong character but when I start crying I cry for days. Mr Panton, we were talking to him, oh I forgot what I was going to say. We were talking to him one day about dad.
CB: Just to that in to context the airfield was bought by the Panton’s for their chicken farm.
RG: Yes.
CB: And then they bought what is now called, “Just Jane.”
RG: Yes. Yeah. From Scampton. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So you were saying though that before that happened.
RG: No.
CB: We used to go there.
RG: No. No.
RG: Yeah. We used to go.
TG: Go back to the beginning.
CB: Dad would just go in.
RG: We used to go there, but we never used to speak to anybody because we were like trespassers trespassing and but we used to go and just like look and that was it and you know we girls would probably play hide and seek and that would be it.
CB: On the airfield.
RG: On the airfield. Yes. And then when after dad died we got the Memorial cabinet set up. We were talking to Mr Fred Panton one day and he was saying, and I said my dad would never come in the Lancaster. And he said that they had, when they started doing the taxi runs they had this gentleman who booked himself on one of the flights as they called it. He would come early, have a bit of lunch and sit there and then he would be ready, his flight would be ready, they would call him but he just couldn’t bring himself to get on it. And he said he did it numerous times. Not just the once. Numerous times. Where he really wanted to go on the taxi run but couldn’t bring himself to. And he was, like dad had flown from there.
CB: What do you think was the origin of that reaction?
RG: I would imagine that it would be bringing back all the horrors of, of going. You know, on these raids.
CB: In your case was it your father’s reaction of the loss of the crew without him being there?
RG: He never actually said anything about it but no if I mentioned, ‘Oh, shall we go on one of those taxi runs?’ ‘No. I don’t think so Rachel.’ And that was it but he did [pause] he got a tree planted just around the corner from the mess and in memory and he had a plaque put for his crew. You carry on. Oh dear.
CB: We’ll stop a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Even though —
RG: Even though dad never actually said how he felt about his crew he did have a tree, bought a tree, a big flowering cherry, had the tree planted and he had a plaque with the all the names of his crew and why we put it there. And now we’ve got, and now we’ve got one by the side of it for dad.
CB: This is a really emotional and emotive activity and task to follow up. But taking the bombing war itself what was his attitude towards bombing in general?
RG: He just, he just, he didn’t do too much commenting on it but I got the feeling that dad was given a task to do and they just went and did it. And didn’t give a great deal, no I was going to say a great deal of thought to what they were doing but obviously they were. But they were just following orders I think. That’s, but he didn’t, dad didn’t say too much. He was a very private sort of fella. Yeah.
CB: Terry, what do you think?
TG: Well, he told me that it was a job that had to be done and he did as he was told and he kept at it. It was the only way. Bearing in mind at the time the only people that were taking the war to Germany was Bomber Command. And he, I asked him sometimes why they’d not been recognised and he just said that’s just how it was. He wasn’t, he got to the stage where he wasn’t, he wasn’t bothered that there was no particular medal for Bomber Command in the war. We all know the political sensitivities about that but that was the way it was. He had a job to do, he said and he did it to the best he could. And he said he was just very, very lucky to have survived.
CB: We talked about his DFC. His navigator also had a DFC. Doesn’t look as though the pilot had a DFC. But what was the, his 57 Squadron pilot because his 106 had two DFCs didn’t he? Wareing.
TG: I think Bob Wareing, 106 Squadron had a DFC and probably a DFC and bar. Peter eventually got his. He said he got it because he was lucky to be alive. But read the citation. Continually went into some of the worst and most heavily defended targets. Sorry. You asked me what?
CB: Yeah. I was going to say what was the reason that, given for his receiving the DFC? Because it was a particular point.
TG: It was a non-immediate award.
CB: Right.
TG: And it was I think the citation and it’s around somewhere was continued enthusiasm and leadership going in to some of the, as I say the worst defended targets repeatedly again and again and again. When he was eventually put forward for it and he received it in 1944. Yes, it was 1944.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
TG: It was, it was some years or quite a long time after I had married Rachel that he even mentioned he’d got it. It wasn’t something that was a big thing with him.
RG: As a child dad was a member of the Royal Observer Corps. He was chief, Observer Corps at the post at Maxey, and on ceremonial occasions, on marches and Remembrance Sundays the medals always came out. So he was very proud of them, but as to talk about it that would be a different matter. But on an occasion where other members of the Royal Observer Corps and the British Legion and all that he would wear them with pride. Yeah.
CB: Now, his 57 Squadron tour finished at twenty five ops for him.
TG: Yes.
CB: What did he do after that?
TG: Well, he, he, he started a third tour at Syerston. From Syerston on Lancasters. But he did a few operational tours before the war finished.
CB: Which Squadron was that?
TG: I can’t remember.
CB: It doesn’t matter. But he was on operations. Not training.
TG: No. He was on operations. We see from his logbook he made at least one or two trips to Berlin. Four or five days after Germany surrendered.
CB: Oh right.
TG: And that was the end of his operational duties but I think he stayed on for another eighteen months or so before finally leaving the RAF.
CB: What, what — how did he come to be in the Observer Corps?
RG: My Uncle Bert. He was my godfather. He was a member of the Royal Observer Corps and dad went. Followed him sort of thing. Yeah. Got the Queen’s Silver Jubilee for services to the Royal Observer Corps. And he was chief observer at the Maxey post.
CB: Which is where exactly?
TG: Just outside of Peterborough. Between Peterborough and —
RG: Yeah. Market Deeping.
TG: Until, until it was disbanded.
RG: Yes.
TG: He, he stayed ‘til the end.
RG: He did all the talks on the, you know when the bomb, what was going off. I used to go with him on those talks. We talked to all sorts of organisations. I was in charge of the slides. You know. To show them. I felt as if I knew everything about it. Yes.
TG: I did talk to him about D-Day. I asked him if he’d been on an operation leading up to D-Day and in fact as his logbook proves he was. 5 Group went and bombed on the evening of the 5th of June 1944. Maisy Grandcamp and that area there. I asked him what he thought about it and what he knew about it. When he went on that raid he had no idea it was D-Day. He didn’t know it was D-Day and neither did anybody else but the top brass. As you probably know. And he said he thought it was funny because as he flew over the Channel, he thought on his screen there was a lot of Window. The silver.
CB: Radar jamming.
TG: The radar jamming stuff that was flying around but it, they did the raid and they got back and he went back and went to bed. And then when he woke up the next morning they told him it was D-Day and what he’d seen on his screen wasn’t Window. It was the boats. It was, it was the invasion fleet going. And that was the first he knew it was D-Day because of the secrecy of everything.
CB: This was on his H2S radar.
TG: Yes.
CB: He was seeing it.
TG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
TG: But that’s, but that’s his recollection of that. But he remembered some, some raids and he’d tell me briefly about them. I think once they, shortly after D-Day they were detailed to attack Caen. The Germans there, and bomb at a certain point. But between taking off and getting this message our side, I think Canadians advanced further and I think there was quite a lot of allied troops killed by our own side in that raid. You probably know more about it than I do. Similarly we talked about the Scharnhorst earlier. That was a raid he told me that went slightly wrong. The plan had been, I think it was Poleglase was the station commander who led them in. But the plan had been for bombers to go in early at high level and get the bombs, the ships guns pointing upwards when Pete’s group would come in low and give them a good hiding. But I think the timing went wrong and they were waiting for them and hence the first three aircraft were shot out of the sky and then Wareing took that detour inland and came and got them from the other way. But these are the things that are probably not documented anywhere else.
CB: Now, the other major ship of course, capital ship was the Bismarck.
TG: Yes.
CB: So to what did he, extent did he have an involvement with that?
TG: He told us and it came to light after a chance conversation forty or fifty years later. Forty years later. With a chap in the Mail Cart pub at Spalding. But Pete told us that they knew where the Bismarck was heading but they didn’t quite know where it was as I understood it. So they went off to lay some mines in the Bay of Biscay and they were talked down as to where they should plant these mines by some of the Naval vessels. And that is what they did. And obviously a short time later the Bismarck was sunk by other means. But the chap in the, in the pub years later it transpired was on one of our Naval vessels and he was a wireless operator talking with the RAF and giving them instructions. So it was probably that Peter actually had spoken to this man before but never met him in entirely different circumstances than over a pint in the Mail Cart.
RG: Steward and Patteson’s.
TG: Yeah. So Steward and Patteson’s was a, that was another. Pete. Pete knew his beers. He knew them like no man I’ve ever met. And he could drink probably more than any man I’ve ever met [laughs] But when I first met him he used to take me to the Dun Cow at Spalding. Well at Cowbit. And he had this Steward and Patteson was one of the local brewers and Pete with his favourite pint but they used to grow barley in Norfolk for the beer, and they used to grow barley in Lincolnshire on the other side of the River Nene. And Pete could tell from the drink which side of the river the barley had been grown. Now, whether he was shooting the line.
RG: He would be.
TG: Which I’m sure he was but people believed him. So there you go. That’s, that’s the man. He was a very tall man, you know. About six foot two, wasn’t he? Very gentle. And he could speak equally to Prince Phillip or the Queen who he met a time or two.
RG: Garden parties.
TG: Or to the local drunk on his bike going past his nursery. Couldn’t he?
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
TG: Couldn’t he? He was at ease with anybody.
CB: And talking of nurseries. After the war how did he come to take up horticulture?
RG: Well, he went to work for Nell Brothers. Horticulturalists in Spalding. And he went as worker there. And then he went to Swanley Horticultural College and did a course on growing and all that sort of thing. And then he came back home. And then one of the Prestons, John Preston was of school leaving age and he thought he might like a career in horticulture. Growing type things. His father was loosely connected. And so they set up the nursery. They rented the land from Uncle Bert and they set up the business of Redmile Nurseries. John was the young lad and my dad was the expert as it were. And they worked there ‘til dad retired. You know. Quite a successful. Growing tomatoes, lettuce. The land had a bit of wheat on. They did lot of potato chitting. Cut flowers in the greenhouses. They expanded a little bit but that’s it. That’s where dad worked.
TG: He spent all his, his remainder of his working life.
RG: Yes.
TG: The Preston family that Rachel mentioned are the same ones that Olive was nanny too.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And who owned the Greyhound at Spalding.
RG: Yes.
TG: And in fact, John, his partner only died last week. He was eighty five.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Do you want to just say that again.
RG: Yeah. Dad grew all sorts of veg and things like that. Tomatoes and lettuce. But he absolutely hated tomatoes. It was quite funny really. You grow them, you know and yeah. But he hated them.
CB: What was the origin of that?
RG: I’ve absolutely no idea really but yeah. Yeah. It’s [pause] yeah.
TG: But his —
RG: But we never ate tomatoes like they do in supermarkets now. Red. They’d always got to be firm and orange and they’d always got to be of a certain size. Other things like you have beef tomatoes and things nowadays they just went on the skip. It had got to be if I can remember pink, or pink and white. That was the grade of the tomatoes.
TG: If they were red they weren’t fit to eat.
RG: No. They were thrown out. They were only for frying.
TG: But of course Rachel does the garden. That’s been inherited from her dad I think.
CB: Looks smashing.
TG: Well, your other sister is a horticulturist.
RG: Yes. Helen is horticultural.
TG: In a big way big way down in Spalding.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
TG: Yes.
CB: Stop there again.
[recording paused]
RG: And they went on their honeymoon. The Preston’s had a bungalow at Surfleet Reservoir. And mum and dad went down there. I suppose it was all the time they’d got. They went down there for the honeymoon to the bungalow at Surfleet Reservoir. It’s where the river comes in and there’s a, there’s a sluice gate before it goes out into the sea. Surfleet Reservoir. In the day it was quite a nice little place to be. Yeah, and that’s where they went on their honeymoon.
TG: About three miles from home.
RG: Yes. Well, why not?
CB: Might have got recalled.
TG: Well, yes.
RG: Well, that’s always a possibility isn’t it?
TG: That was it. But —
CB: Stop there.
[recording paused]
CB: So, did you go back to France quite often? Where the crew were buried.
TG: Rachel and, Rachel and I went on holiday in France quite often and always drive. One time when we were coming back we went to Normandy where my father fought and went to some of the cemeteries at Omaha and others. And at the time I think I managed it was sort of pre-internet days really. But I managed to find where Peter’s crew were buried from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and on the way back we travelled to Banneville and to the Commonwealth and found Tuesday Spencer and Weston Clark and Anderson. Their grave. And we came back on the Tuesday and Peter had never set foot abroad. He’d left his mark. By golly he had in France and in Germany from high, from on high and I mentioned I’d been and I didn’t know really how to put it because I didn’t know how it would affect him emotionally. And I said we’d been and found the graves and he did say, ‘I’d like to go.’ So this was on the Tuesday. On the Saturday we jumped in his Rover and I went back to France with him and we had the whale of a time. We had a whale of a time. We not only visited. We visited some hostelries there and we visited Pointe du Hoc and Omaha, and I took him to the graves and he stood beside them and he signed the book. He was very quiet but he was completely controlled and he was able to speak quite easily of them. And so he did and we’ve got photographs of the graves and Peter with them.
CB: So what did he talk about?
TG: When he was there? He would talk about Tuesday. He was, I think the closest because he didn’t know anything much about other crews and that was fairly [pause] fairly part of the course wasn’t it? He knew his own crew but Tuesday had a motor bike and he’d got a girlfriend. I think he was having trouble with this girlfriend and I think Pete used to advise him a little bit on the, on procedure and protocols and things like that. But I think he also used to take Pete to Spalding to see Olive and that sort of thing and have a few pints.
RG: Dad put in here that he socialised an awful lot with Tuesday. He had a little bit more money than dad and if they went somewhere, probably go to London and he would put them up and I think dad quite liked that idea.
TG: That happened once. They made a forced landing somewhere down south and Tuesday had the money and he put the whole crew up in a hotel in London. And Pete was quite happy to participate. He put his back in to that evening I think [laughs]. Really put his back into so, and enjoyed that wouldn’t he? But having said that and between meeting him and Tuesday dying was only eleven months or so wasn’t it? So they were, they were, they were friends but they, they must have known that, well what was going through their minds having looked around you didn’t make plans for the future necessarily.
CB: No. You said he was asked to speak to Tuesday’s parents.
TG: Yes.
CB: What did he think about that?
TG: He described it as it was, didn’t he? He, he, they wanted to speak to him and he was summoned to the office. The station commander. When he returned after ten days or so. And they really wanted to talk to him about Tuesday and how he’d found him because obviously they knew or they had been told that Pete was his best friend while he was down there. I think all he could tell them was —
RG: How it was really.
TG: How it was. And when he’d last seen him and that sort of thing. He didn’t express any emotion at all.
RG: No.
TG: To me. He never expressed any emotion. He just told it how it was and that was all his experiences. The only clue you got to the effect was as we mentioned was the night.
RG: Nightmares. Yeah.
TG: The nightmares if you like to call it that. When he was flying at night. That was the only time he, you would know that there was anything amiss. That he’d been affected. He would talk about his drink. The drinking sessions and the good times. He’d talk about not being able to remember because they’d had just to blot it out. But the middle bit. The bit where it happened he, he didn’t go into any detail other than the funny bits usually. And occasionally obviously the rear gunner being hit. But he was, he was baled out twice. Wasn’t he?
CB: So why did he have to bale out of the aircraft?
TG: I think the aircraft made it back to the UK, in England both times. I think on one occasion he landed in a field and it was foggy. And I’m sure he told me that there was somebody had reported this fellow had come out of an aircraft and a police car was, was on the road and he was the other side of the hedge. And I think they thought he was a German or something to start with because he was running down this hedge side with the police opposite until they could sort of meet up and he identified himself. He did get some shrapnel in the backside once. Didn’t he?
RG: Yes. I think mum used to have it in her sewing box. I don’t know if it’s still there [laughs]
TG: It’s probably —
RG: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think it is now. Yeah. You always, when I was a kid that, ‘Oh, no. That came out of dad’s, dad’s bottom,’ like, you know [laughs]
TG: It had gone through the seat.
RG: Yeah.
TG: Wherever he was.
RG: And when he landed in the tree I think he ripped his leg. But that’s the only injury he got. Yeah.
TG: I think he landed in Norfolk on one occasion if not both. Then struggling back.
RG: The thing is though when you’re growing up you hear, and later on you hear these things and because you’re so engrossed with living —
CB: Yeah.
RG: You don’t take it on board. And then all of a sudden when you get older and you get interested in these sorts of things you think oh, I wish I’d learned more. I wish I knew more about my granddad because he was in the First World War and he, I just knew that he was a horseman but I didn’t know whether he rode a horse. I didn’t know what he did, but he was, he looked after the horse —
TG: A blacksmith.
RG: No. He wasn’t a blacksmith. He looked after the horses that pulled the big guns. You see, I didn’t know any of that.
CB: No.
RG: You know. I didn’t. I mean, ok apart from a picture at my nan’s of him in uniform I wouldn’t have thought. It wasn’t until later on that I’ve got some spoons and knives and things in there stamped with numbers. And they are my granddads and my great uncle’s that they took to the war with them.
TG: They’d be stamped and issued to them, wouldn’t they?
RG: With their, with their service numbers.
CB: No.
RG: I didn’t know. You know, I didn’t know any of that.
CB: No.
RG: And then of course when you get interested it’s too late because everybody’s gone then. Isn’t it?
TG: You see, we’d been across there a lot. Both to the Normandy and to Ypres and the Somme. I nearly lived there. Certainly, if you look behind you when you’re upstairs you’ll see books. I’ve got the 57 Squadron book. The, “57 Squadron at War,” which is very difficult to get a hold of now. I’ve got it. I’ve got it upstairs there but, when I go around to some of these places I mean I often go or used to go to Sleaford and one other, and Norfolk where they’re doing all these re-enactments and you think gosh these are really, because I’m really into these things as you probably gathered. And I start talking to these and they’re all dressed and they, when you actually talk to them they know very little. They want to get dressed up and do battle. They’ve never been to Normandy. They’ve never been to those. They don’t know about, they just want to get dressed up and look you know. They don’t get into it.
CB: They’re actors.
RG: Yes.
TG: Yes. But they’re just enthusiast who want to get dressed up and think it’s fun.
RG: I went.
TG: It annoys me. That they should go and look at those cemeteries, you know. And they’ve never been. I said, ‘What do you think to Omaha?’ ‘What are you talking about?’ ‘Omaha.’ You know. Or, or, or Tyne Cot, or Passchendaele or some of these, you know.
RG: I challenged one at Metheringham Open Day one day. He was there and he had DFC things on, you know.
TG: He was dressed up.
RG: He was an officer and he’d got the DFC. You know, the ribbons.
TG: He was a postman. He’d never been in a —
RG: I said to him, ‘Oh, you’ve got, I see you’ve got a DFC there,’ you know. He did not know what I was talking about. I said, ‘That, that ribbon there. That’s a DFC.’ ‘Is it?’
TG: Yeah.
RG: And I thought, what are we doing here? You know. Yeah.
TG: If they’re going to do that they want to know more than I do.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And my dad was there and he, you know he was reported killed, missing in action to my mum on the 18th of June 1944. Fortunately, in the same post she got a letter from him. He was in Carlisle Hospital with a great lump of shrapnel in him. At Ranville, at Ranville, just up from, from Pegasus Bridge. He’d been smashed up. But as I say after three or four months he was fit enough to go back. That’s where he got this.
RG: I don’t know.
TG: He lived ‘til he was ninety six my father. Red beret and airborne.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And all this sort of thing.
RG: Before he died it was the, was it the seventieth anniversary or something. VE. VE Day.
TG: The week before he died.
RG: Yeah.
TG: My dad was in a home here. My mum died a few years before. And he managed to reach the seventieth anniversary of D-Day.
RG: Yeah. And at the home they did a big, a big thing. It was a Care Centre there. And they did a meal and everything like that.
TG: They got him dressed up with his medals.
RG: And he went and it was, it was a good day. He wasn’t quite sure where he was.
TG: It was his last Friday or Saturday on earth.
RG: Yeah, but he, yeah it was —
TG: He died the following Thursday.
RG: But he’d got his red beret on. And he’d got his medals up and he’d got the photograph sat on his knee all day. Clutched. Of him when he was a young man.
TG: A young man in uniform.
RG: And that. Yeah.
TG: And you couldn’t get it off him.
RG: No.
TG: He had it like this.
RG: He clutched it all day.
TG: He died the following Thursday.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Oh right.
TG: Two years, three ago.
RG: Yeah.
TG: Two and a half years ago now.
RG: But, you know a lot, a lot of people don’t know what you’re talking about when you say these things.
CB: They don’t. No.
RG: No.
TG: No.
RG: I mean, this film I haven’t been to see it. Terry went with some lads in the family.
TG: I went to see “Dunkirk.”
RG: Dunkirk. And I listened to a report on the radio and they, was it the radio? No. Wireless. Whatever you call it, you know. And they said that it’s been made because a lot of people don’t know what they’re talking about.
TG: They don’t know the difference between Dunkirk and D-Day.
RG: And people when they were interviewed them, and they said, ‘Do you know about Dunkirk?’ ‘No.’ You know. And I think to myself, oh dear. It is a shame.
TG: But they don’t know why they’re here.
RG: No.
TG: We, I’m ashamed to say that one of our friends we used to go to France and Germany a lot. Just jump in the car and book a ferry and go down the Moselle or whatever. Last time we went to Lille and Bruges. We ended up right on the coast at Dunkirk waiting for a ferry, I think we came back from Dunkirk.
RG: Oh, I can’t remember.
TG: But we came to the very end where there’s still some guns there. I don’t know if you’ve been on that coast. There’s still some German guns there. And Sheila, who is just a few months older than you and we’re talking Dunkirk and she said, she turned and said to me, ‘Is this where they all came up on to the beaches then? And the invasion.’ And I think, they weren’t going that way. I mean she’s seventy. I mean, I just think how can you go through life —
RG: Yeah, but don’t you think though like I’ve —
TG: Without knowing that it happened hundreds of miles away. D-Day. And they were coming — we were going up there.
RG: But I’ve grown up with Lancaster bombers. I’ve grown up with them, you know. And my girls they’ve grown up with them as well through granddad. And this is how we’ve been. And all, aircraft in the sky, ‘Oh look. There goes the Dakota,’ or whatever. I’ve grown up like that. But a lot of people just don’t know what you’re talking about. I know a few years ago I was at work and it was, it was a nice day and we were in the canteen and we’d got the windows open. And we sat there having coffee and I said, ‘Oh, listen. Oh, there goes the Lancaster.’ No one looked. They looked gone out at me as if I was speaking a foreign language. I said, ‘Listen. Can’t you hear the engines?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘It’s a bomber. It’s going over.’ ‘What are you talking about Rachel?’ I said, ‘It’s the Lancaster.’ I said, ‘It’ll be going back to Coningsby and do its circuit around the Cathedral.’ And they had no idea what I was talking about. Now, that is sad isn’t it? Yeah.
TG: The other thing your dad didn’t like to see and it must have affected him. I sometimes wonder about why he said it, is every time he saw an old airfield in Lincolnshire and he saw the control tower standing derelict he would say, ‘I wish they would pull them down.’ He said, ‘I wish they’d pull them all down.’ I think it was a reminder. He didn’t, he didn’t like to see them. Did he?
RG: No. Not derelict anyway. No.
TG: I mean, I didn’t know —
RG: He was ok at East Kirkby. You know, because it’s all been restored.
CB: It’s restored. Yeah.
RG: Yeah. But he always went to East Kirkby just for a ride. You know, ‘I’m just going to ride.’ Woodhall Spa. East Kirkby. That way on. But yeah. There we go.
CB: Just going back to the, your parents in the war people took very different views as to whether they should marry or not. So why was it that your parents married essentially in the middle of the war?
RG: Just turn that off a minute.
[recording paused]
RG: Wouldn’t like to hear that. She, you know. Why mum and dad got married in the war. I think they, you know had a good relationship. Romance blossomed and I think the idea was well, why shouldn’t we get married? You know. In those days it was the way forward regardless of how long they had got together. I don’t think that entered into it. So, yes. They, they married. Yes.
CB: And we talked about their links and because they were physically not next to each other while the flying —
RG: Yes.
CB: Was going on. So that covers that matter. Thank you.
RG: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So, Terry. On your case.
TG: My dad was in the army and he was on the beaches at D-Day and wounded just after. But they married in 1941 and my dad was on a few days leave and they had a special licence. They decided to get married on the Wednesday night and the ceremony took place at the church on the Saturday. And everything was pretty quick in those days although I was three or four years coming along and the eldest of five brothers. They caught up for it later on, didn’t they? But he survived the war. My father.
RG: And they were married for nearly seventy years.
TG: Nearly seventy years.
CB: You had a long and auspicious career in the police force and to what extent did you come across policemen who’d been in the war and did they talk about it?
TG: Well, only early on did I come across it and only for a short period because the chaps on the patrol car with me were much, much older and had served.
RG: Lofty had, hadn’t he?
TG: There was one chap who was, I remember distinctly. Never had a cigarette out of his hand. And he’d been on the Northwest Frontier, was it? As a stretcher bearer and drummer boy. And he told me a few tales.
CB: In India.
TG: Sorry? In India. Yes.
CB: In India. Yes.
TG: And his skin was still leathery. They called him Lofty. A wonderful character. But he didn’t go too much into, into his experiences and I didn’t see many others who were old enough.
RG: And Vic’s dad. Was he in the war?
TG: Yes, but he didn’t serve with —
RG: No. No.
TG: Vic’s dad. No. I met one or two people. One chap had been, he’d worked in an office in Lincoln and he was, you’d call him an insignificant little chap and he wasn’t very noisy. He kept quiet but when he spoke everybody listened because he’d been on the, in the Navy, I think the Merchant Navy and been torpedoed twice and survived. That sort of thing. I think Alf Dixon who was the office man at Spalding when I joined had been torpedoed in, in the Navy. But I was only nineteen when I joined. And I mean I had school masters who had been, all of them had been in the war. One had lost his leg. The deputy headmaster. That’s a thing.
CB: And what about the felons that you dealt with? Had any of those been guided by the forces originally?
TG: No. No. They, young as I was most of them and they just jumped on to the one side of the fence while I’d fallen on the other at the time. I was on the law enforcement side. But no it didn’t.
CB: So, going back to the war itself you talked about the experience of one of the crewmen and being [pause] we were talking about, touching on LMF.
TG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So, what was that dimension as far as Pete was concerned? What his knowledge.
TG: The man was out of control. He said he was. He just had him, you know he was shell shocked was probably —
RG: Flak happy.
TG: Flak happy was, was the word. He’d gone flak happy. Completely flak happy and gone berserk on the aircraft. Endangering it. As I said, Pete said he hit him with a ammo box and knocked him out. And then he was charged. Probably court martialled. I don’t know for LMF. In these days you’d have probably got a handsome sum in compensation for all the stress he’d been put through. But that’s as far as it went. I don’t think Pete came across it. Or if he did he didn’t mention anything about that at all. Even if he was stressed. I mean obviously what he said they were terribly stressed. You wouldn’t go out and get blind drunk to forget what you’d just seen, done and been through like they did. It was the only release they had. The only release. They above all went from relative safety to the most terrible danger in a very short time. Whereas no other arm, arm of the armed forces experienced that, did they? They were, either they were out there fighting at a fairly consistent level, I know it went up and down but the bomber crews and I suppose the fighter pilots as well went from sitting at home in a pub in England or with a girlfriend and hours later being subject to the most horrendous barrage and being attacked from above and below. And it was a huge contrast for them.
RG: And the frequency of the flying and the raids. If you look at dad’s logbook it sort of says you know, he’s made up the logbook and its flying such and such and where they’ve gone. Good long way away. Then they’re back. And then it’s not five minutes or so before they’re off again, you know. And they would be going at 9 o’clock and 10 o’clock at night. Flying. Night flying. Coming back. Then afternoons. And there wasn’t a good long rest period in the middle so they, they would be tired out, you know. Head wise as well as body. Physical. Yeah.
TG: Sometimes a crew would be lost and of course their uniforms would, and everything they’d left in their billet was moved and their beds made up for the next crew to replace them. The next crew would come. And then before they went to bed they’d probably gone on a raid and be lost and they’d never use the beds that were made up for them. I mean. As you know. This was the —
RG: I don’t think modern society can understand what a lot of they had to put up with that and go through really. I know there’s different things. Different aspects now. But they just had to get on with it in those days. Well, from what I can understand.
CB: You touched on a point indirectly which is that the socialising of the crew and in this particular case Tuesday’s crew was mixed airmen of sergeants and officers.
TG: And, and —
CB: So, how did that work?
TG: There was I think there was pretty well classless. I think those, those divisions were not, Peter never, Pete never mentioned anything of that nature. The only thing he objected to was when they were marched off at gunpoint by the Americans at this base and they were all put in the sergeant’s mess when he said he should have been in the officer’s mess. But they were questioned and all sorts. That’s the only time he ever, but I think he had taken umbridge at the Americans attitude rather than anything else because Pete had no thoughts for what anybody’s background was. He’d treat everybody the same.
RG: No. Absolutely.
TG: Whether he was a prince or a pauper. Quite literally. And he spoke to all people from all of those classes and you could be with him and he could hold a conversation with anybody from any background but he never ever —
RG: Never judged anybody.
TG: He never judged anybody.
RG: No.
TG: And he never sort of said, ‘I’ve got the DFC,’ and everything. He never got, it never got entered into conversation.
RG: He was just a nice chap.
TG: He was just a nice sociable chap who liked a pint after a hard days work at the nursery. And sometimes in later life he’d go down to the Mail Cart on the bus wouldn’t he because of the road safety. But one of the funny things I’ll tell you about Pete when I was first was going out with Rachel. I think I was first married.
RG: I think we were married.
TG: I think we were married. And Pete and your, and Harold.
RG: And his friend George Samsby.
TG: And George Samsby.
RG: And some, one other.
TG: They were a right drinking group.
RG: Oh dear.
TG: And they all used to go to the Dun Cow at Cowbit. Now, me and my mate who was quite a lot older than me were in a patrol car one night and it was about one in the morning coming back into Spalding along Cowbit Bank. And I could see some of the cars outside the well-lit pub because closing time was about ten thirty and this was 1am. The lights are still on. There were a few cars outside amongst which was your dad’s.
RG: Harold’s.
TG: Your brother in law’s and George Samsby’s and my co-driver, he said, ‘Look at that pub. Let’s go and raid it.’ I, I was appalled that these, you know, he says, ‘They’re all drinking.’ So I said, ‘I’m sorry, Brian. I can’t Brian, I can’t.’ He said, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘Because I’m at court in the morning. If I get tied up with that lot I’m going to be here ‘til 4 or 5 o’clock.’ I didn’t mention whose cars they were because I could see it in the paper that, “PC arrests whole family illegally drinking.”
RG: Oh dear [laughs]
TG: Dear me. In the local pub. And I could imagine quite a rift, you know and I’d have to go and give evidence against him and then bail him out.
RG: Oh dear.
TG: But he was wonderful company. He was wonderful. He were wonderful company your dad was. Wasn’t he? He was. He used to work like anything. But when they used to be at Maxey they used to get an allowance to cut the grass at the Royal Observer Corps Post. To pay somebody to do it. Well, they didn’t. They kept the money and cut it themselves. So every year they had a right old booze up and a dinner to which we went with the money for the grass cutting. Resourceful to the last. Wasn’t he? Yes.
RG: He used to have these, you know exercises and they’d you know pretend that there was going to be a —
TG: Nuclear war.
RG: Nuclear war, you know. And away dad would go there. And the first thing that went down into the post as they called it was the beer laughs] It went down, you know. The beer.
TG: That was because they were underground weren’t they?
RG: Yeah.
CB: They wouldn’t want to get it contaminated by radiation would they?
RG: Absolutely not.
TG: It didn’t matter about anything else but they’d be locked down there for a few days, wouldn’t they?
RG: Yes.
TG: With the luncheon, didn’t they? The luncheon meat and —
RG: I felt as though I knew everything about the Royal Observer Corps.
CB: What would you think Pete would have said was his most memorable experience in the war?
RG: Golly. That is a question. In the war.
TG: Well, only the things that he’d mentioned really because he didn’t go into that much detail. He mentioned the Scharnhorst thing because they lost those aircraft and they put it out of action for about a month. The loss of his crew, and those things we’ve already highlighted.
RG: I think he would probably have said it would be his mother in law’s cooked breakfast because when he was at home on leave nan, my nan would always make sure that he got the eggs and he got the bacon and had a good, you know a good breakfast. But I can’t think of anything on the raid side or operations that dad would talk about more than another.
TG: He just, he just did it.
RG: Yeah. I think the loss of his crew. He talked about that a bit but, yeah. No.
TG: It was a, it was a period in his life that —
RG: He just did.
TG: They did. And when it was over he wanted to put it behind him.
CB: Yes.
TG: And what he did subsequently was in complete and utter contrast. Wasn’t it? Growing plants and, and selling them. It wasn’t a noisy machine driven —
CB: Destructive force.
TG: Destructive force. It was a constructive effort.
RG: But all his hobbies and things were RAF connected. Yeah.
TG: They —
RG: Yeah. He had a great love of flying and things.
TG: He liked, liked flying. As I say. The Holbeach Club and his wireless op. His amateur radio and obviously the ROC, RAFA and all this sort of thing.
RG: My sister. My younger sister. She —
TG: There are three of them.
RG: Three of us.
TG: We’ll not mention Jane.
RG: Jane. She lived in Bath and she’d just bought this house and they were having it converted. Fantastic place it was and she wanted dad to see it. Now, dad was a very, very sick man and she wanted us to go. And I said, ‘Dad won’t survive a road trip or a train trip.’
TG: He had a heart attack when he was about seventy eight, so.
RG: Yeah. I said, ‘Dad won’t survive that, Jane. It’ll just absolutely knock him out.’ So she chartered a helicopter to come and fetch us.
TG: [unclear] anyway.
RG: Yeah. But dad was absolutely in his element. He, we set of from Fenland Airfield. Right. You know. Little Fen.
TG: In this helicopter.
RG: All his mates were watching him and this chappy in the uniform and off we went.
TG: To Bath.
RG: Terry and I went to Bath.
TG: With your dad.
RG: Yeah. With dad. And dad sat in the front like this. And as we got, we went over where Prince Charles lives. Highgrove, and that. And when we got —
TG: Highgrove. Yes.
RG: When we got near somewhere or other there was two Hercules in the sky. Now, helicopters fly quite low.
TG: It was over the —
CB: This is Lyneham.
TG: No.
RG: No.
TG: No. The one that was closest.
RG: No.
TG: Fairford.
RG: Where the —
TG: Fairford. It was closed at the time.
CB: Because —
RG: Yeah. Because they were converting for the —
CB: Americans. Yes.
RG: Yeah. Two helicopters, two Hercules were coming like this and we’d got, we were all sat in the back. Got these headsets on and I said, ‘Oh, oh look at those Hercules across there. Look at those.’ You know. We were coming like this. These two Hercules were coming like that. And I thought to myself I don’t know but we’re just a little bit too close to those. So I said to the pilot about these. I said, ‘Oh they’re a bit close to us, aren’t they?’ He went, ‘Silence in the cabin.’ Closed me. So then he kept saying to the radar people and whatever.
CB: Control room. Yes.
RG: Yeah. Control room. He kept saying such and such, ‘This is Echo Tango Lima 546,’ or whatever we were, ‘We are a Jet Ranger. We have five people on board. We are flying from Fenland Airfield in Lincolnshire to a private landing spot in Bath. We are a Jet Ranger. We have five — ’ And I kept thinking and I kept thinking, I kept thinking you keep telling them. And he kept saying it, repeating and the control place said you are de, de, de, der like this. And he kept saying and, ‘Yes. We are a Jet Ranger.’ And he kept repeating it. ‘We are a Jet Ranger.’ And then the call sign like that. I thought, yes you tell them who we are because when we hit there’s not going to be anything left of our Jet Ranger. And then all of a sudden this voice said whatever the call sign. ‘You are a Jet Ranger. You are flying — ’ you know repeated everything. He said, ‘Yes. We are.’ And the next minute our little helicopter, well it wasn’t a little one, we went down like this. We went right down like that. I thought I don’t like this, we’re going down, and these Hercules literally went over the top. And when we got calmed down the captain said, ‘Phew.’ And what it was the call sign of us was very similar to one of those Hercules and they’d got us muddled up.
CB: Oh.
RG: But do you know dad sat in the front and dad said something, ‘Well, Skip. That was a good, good shout.’ Or something like that.
TG: Good show.
RG: Good show. Yeah. And the fella said, ‘I bet you’ve had more experiences than that one.’ And dad said, ‘Yeah. But not as exciting,’ or something like that. But oh dear. But, yeah.
CB: Crikey.
RG: Dad was laid up for quite a few weeks after that one. Oh, you haven’t been recording me have you?
[recording paused]
RG: And he obviously had —
CB: So Terry I just want to go back to what talked about the parents of Tuesday coming down to see Pete. What do you think they were looking for?
TG: Well, Durham is a couple of hundred miles away from East Kirkby at least. And travel wouldn’t be very easy at that time. And they were there waiting for Peter when he returned from his, his short period of rest. Expressly having requested to see him. And there must have been a terrible gap in their yearning to find out more about their son in his last days and to speak to his closest friend of that time. His drinking mate. His flying mate. And Pete was able to fill them in. How they were. What his attitude was. What his spirits were like. Right up until the last time he saw him which was obviously some time after his own parents. The fact that they went out to dinner with Pete when they were down there, the fact that the station commander had accepted them on to the base because it wouldn’t be easy for civilians to get on there at that time must have been a great —
RG: And the five pounds.
TG: Must have been a great comfort to them. And having then travelled home. Probably having had to stay down in Lincolnshire for a day or two. To post him the five pounds in recognition of both the comfort he’d brought to them and also for his recent commission, Pete’s commission, clearly shows to me that the effort that they put in the, that it’s the terrible desire to fill in the gaps in their son’s life as much as they could was for closure.
RG: And dad had done it.
TG: And Pete had fulfilled that and filled that gap as much as he possibly could. He brought them closure. And hopefully they went away, well clearly were much happier than they had have been. But to have lost him without any of this detail would have, they would have always wondered. And it wouldn’t have been an easy journey for them to make because they didn’t know what they were going to hear really.
[recording paused]
CB: So what did he particularly appreciate when he was on his trips?
TG: Coming home. He said, he said that often coming home particularly coming home they’d waste a huge amount of ammunition shooting at the Morning or the Evening Star. Whichever time of day Venus was up. When they were very tense and they thought maybe there were fighters waiting for them to land. But one of the loveliest sights he said was the landscape below. England was always greener and he knew he was in England just from the colour, the density of the green rather than on the continent. He didn’t look out for the Cathedral as, as a lot of crews did. Boston Stump was the, was, was more visible than the Cathedral when they came home.
CB: The Lincoln Cathedral.
TG: Than Lincoln Cathedral. But he particularly loved the greenery. That’s more than anything else he loved to see the green green grass of home as they say. And it was greener than over the water.
CB: Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: I want to take you both together.
RG: Oh dear.
CB: And where shall we do it because it’s nice here. Or we can for it outside?
TG: You can do it outside. Or wherever you like.
RG: Yeah. Do it where you like.
CB: Well, we just have the picture with you.
RG: Yeah.
CB: Just hold it between you. It’ll be nice to do it outside wouldn’t it?
RG: I’ll put a bit of lipstick on I think.
TG: She’s got to do her hair.
CB: That’s good. Let me in the meantime just write my email address on there.
TG: I’ll try and send you three and four at a time. Or whatever.
CB: Whatever. Yeah.
TG: Yeah. I’ll just get my shoes on.
CB: Ok.
[pause]
RG: Yes. It would be quite appropriate to be in our garden.
CB: Well, I think so.
RG: Dad and I spent an awful lot of time on it.
CB: Did you? Yes. I think it looks super. Well, I’m looking to move. To downsize my house.
RG: Oh yes. I don’t —
CB: Thank you.
RG: What was I going to say? I think we ought to downsize.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rachel and John Gill
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGillRA-JT170930
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:38:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Hazeldene joined the RAF from Wales when he saw a poster to see the world from a different perspective. He trained as a wireless operator and during training suspected a couple of incidents of sabotage on the base. Peter was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Finningley. On a mining operation they were hit by anti-aircraft fire. It was only when they returned to base they realised the rear gunner was dead and his turret was awash with blood. On another occasion the flight engineer apparently went berserk and Peter had to subdue him by hitting him with an ammunition box. After his first tour of operations Peter was seconded to the Americans at Polebrook as an instructor. He then was posted to RAF East Kirkby with 57 Squadron. While he was on leave he returned to find his crew were dead or missing. The parents of his pilot travelled to East Kirkby to meet him and come to terms with the death of their son. He started a third tour at RAF Syerston and completed several operations before the war ended. After the stress of operations Peter suffered terrible flashbacks and nightmares for the rest of his life.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
106 Squadron
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-17
bale out
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
final resting place
Gneisenau
H2S
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
heirloom
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
mine laying
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Cranwell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Finningley
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Metheringham
RAF Polebrook
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF West Freugh
RAF Wigsley
Royal Observer Corps
Scharnhorst
Stirling
take-off crash
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5765/WardM [Pesaro].jpg
d9a2d9c693790af82307dda6f15eb90a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5765/AWardEM160217.1.mp3
0e6cbd95c57a49ef84a82479d97093ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ward, Mary
Mary Ward
Elsie Mary Ward
E M Ward
Mary Brown
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Three oral history interviews with Elizabeth Mary Ward (893293, Women's Auxiliary Air Force), her dog tags, an aeroplane broach and a photograph album. Mary Ward was a cook but re-mustered and was promoted becoming a map officer. She served with Bomber Command at RAF Driffield between 1940 and 1944 before being posted to Coastal Command.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Mary ward and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ward, EM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Let me just introduce you. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 17th of February 2016. We’re back with Mary Ward in Crowthorne and we’re picking up on some of the points that needed elaborating upon and the first point is really, Mary, to do with your fiancé Douglas and what happened with that. How did you come to meet him in the first place and what went on after that?
MW: Well, I can’t remember the exact dates of when we met but it was ‘42 and he came with the rest of his crew to my map office to collect some maps. They needed new charts and they, they came to me to pick up the maps and the charts and he stayed behind when the rest of the crew left the office and asked me if I could go out with, if I would like to go to York with him. So, yes. I went to York with him and which followed, several dates followed and then he was diverted and was away for a few, a few days. I can’t remember exactly where the diversion was at this moment and then he came back and a few nights later he, they were, they went to an advance base and, to do reconnaissance over the Bay of Biscay.
CB: And this is flying in Wellingtons.
MW: That was flying in yes and he, he didn’t return that night. Well, several of the crews were lost that night but we, we, I was on duty. Most nights I was on duty when we were operating and we, I stayed until 8 or 9 o’clock in the morning trying to see if there was going to be any news but no there wasn’t any news and several days went by and I said to Squadron Leader Ivor Jones, ‘Do you think there’s any hope?’ And I actually said to him at that stage, ‘I can’t go on with this job. It’s too, too much to take. Losing all these boys.’ And his reply was that ‘I’m old enough to be your father. You’ve got to stop being, you mustn’t relate to this incident. You must put it aside because I need you here.’ So, right, well several months went by and worked very hard. That was a very busy time. And then I got a letter from Douglas’s mother who lived at Richmond. She had been, had been sent the, the um Douglas’s um kit and everything from, from the station. The adjutant had organised, always, always organised these things and, and she said, ‘I would like to meet you. Would you come and stay with me for the weekend?’ She said, ‘I’ve, I’d had a letter from Douglas just before, before he, he went missing and he said he’d met the girl he wanted to marry, he was going to marry.’ But I couldn’t do it then. I’m afraid, Chris, that it was too much for me. I had work. We were in Yorkshire, at Linton and they were in, she was in London so I kept putting it off and she kept phoning me. In the end, several months later, I did go. Very, very emotional. I’ll never forget the time she, when I went to meet her and I stayed the weekend, a lovely house. But she sobbed and sobbed. It really was her only son. The last one in their family and do you want to know what she was a sister, theatre sister in the South Middlesex Hospital and she said she’d married late and all she wanted was a little, a boy which she got and at twenty years old he was killed. Well, we did become very friendly. If you want me to go on with this do you? Ahum. And I went there quite a lot and then the time came for me. It was coming towards the end of ‘45 it would be and she said. ‘What are you going to do? Will you come and live with me after the, when the war’s over?’ I said, ‘No.’ She said, ‘You can have the house. You can have everything I’ve got’. But it was too much. I was too young to tie myself down at that stage and I knew Doug wouldn’t really have wanted me to do, to tie myself down so. And I met Roy and I had, well you probably saw from that diary I had loads of young men from the RAF from, from Australia who really wanted me to, to go back to Australia with them but in the end I decided, no. I would get a job and, and stay here. So we, we parted company really. I did write to her a few times afterwards but she was very disappointed that I wouldn’t go and live and live with her. And then I met Roy and um but that was after when I went back to, to South Wales to um to Brawdy. That’s Coastal Command, Brawdy. That’s where they were actually operating. They were still doing met, met work from there and I was there for a while until they, they closed Brawdy. I think the navy took it on then and then we went, we went to Chivenor, near Barnstable and from there I went to Northwood. That was headquarters at Coastal Command and from there I was demobbed. So, up until that time I think, I can’t remember, but I can, I can find out when I went to Bilbao. Up until that time I really, I mean I don’t, I can honestly say that there isn’t really a day that goes by when I don’t think of Douglas in some way or other and his christening cup is there on the mantelpiece. And his engagement ring. You will be very interested in this because she gave me her engagement ring which is a lovely three diamonds ring which I wore a lot and my granddaughter was looking at my, and she said she liked my rings and I said, ‘Right, well you can have this one when you get engaged.’ So recently, only last Christmas I had Douglas’s engagement ring put right. You know, cleaned up and made, made to fit and everything, you see. It is an old fashioned one of course. It’s quite old. And I gave it to her when she got engaged earlier this year. Well, I gave, I gave it to her boyfriend before then but Abigail now has it and she said, ‘Grandma,’ she said, ‘It’s so beautiful,’ she said, ‘I have to keep putting it in the box,’ back in the box looking at it. So that has been passed, as something that’s been passed on to her, on to her. Through her.
CB: So, you were thinking of Douglas all this time.
MW: Ahum.
CB: Was that -
MW: I only knew him -
CB: How long did you know him?
MW: Three months at the most.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. But three months, three days, almost, almost you could say three minutes is long enough to know. You know you’ve got, there’s an attraction there isn’t there? You see, you’ve -
CB: Right. So, after how long did he propose?
MW: How much?
CB: After how many weeks or months did he propose to you? How long did you know him before he proposed?
MW: Oh only a few, they were all a bit like only, oh it must have been less than a month but he, and he used to make a joke of it because he used to send the boys, the other boys, the rest of the crew were there. They would say, ‘Oh when are you going to marry Mary then?’ And he said, ‘No.’ No. Oh some date in the far distance he would say but I didn’t, I wouldn’t have married anyone until after the war was over. In my, my, it wasn’t, in my book it wasn’t fair really, to get married, not to, but I had a feeling with the boys, with the bomber boys that they really, they wanted to leave something behind and, and if they could marry you and get you pregnant well they would. You know, there was something being, they knew, I mean all the boys knew that they weren’t, they weren’t likely to come back and of course most of them didn’t. It was only the few that um like Cheshire. Leonard was there at that time and his office was next door to mine until I moved upstairs. I was going to say to you, and I’m digressing, is there a possibility that I could get up to Linton?
CB: Absolutely. Yes. We can arrange that.
MW: I did read somewhere in the magazine that they had, they had funding that they, not that money would make any difference but I would just need the authority and perhaps a driver or something to, to go up for a couple of nights.
CB: Well, we do have a link with Linton on Ouse. There’s a wing commander who is responsible for the history of the place.
MW: Ahum.
CB: So I know we can get that sorted.
MW: You have that.
CB: Ahum
MW: Oh.
CB: Peter Jones who’s the, one of the -
MW: Who?
CB: Peter Jones.
MW: Peter Jones. Oh yes.
CB: Jones. He sent you the album back and he deals with all the, I send stuff to him.
MW: Oh really? Oh.
CB: So we can send that -
MW: He sent a very nice letter.
CB: Did he? Good.
MW: And Heather sent one as well.
CB: Good.
MW: Yes.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Well I would appreciate that because I think now as I say I’m just hoping that I’ll get Roy into a nursing home. Then I can have some free time.
CB: Of course.
MW: And do it because I do feel that this is, this is the last straw.
CB: Yeah.
MW: This is, you know, I really must do it -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Now. Otherwise I might do something disastrous because it is at that pitch at the moment, you know.
CB: Well, we, just keep us posted and we can sort it out. I know that because of a conversation separately that I’ve had with -
MW: Yes. I’m sure.
CB: With Peter.
MW: It would, it’s so nostalgic.
CB: Of course.
MW: But in my mind I can take you to the, to the, in to the headquarters, up the stairs into the adjutant’s room, to the intelligence office, the operations room and, and all those places. They’re all in my head you see.
CB: Of course. Of course.
MW: And it would be lovely just to have. I think it would be lovely -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Just to have a, have a look around again.
CB: So you met Doug when he was twenty two.
MW: He was twenty.
CB: Twenty.
MW: Yes.
CB: And you were twenty two.
MW: Yes.
CB: And um -
MW: He would have been, June the, June the um is it -
CB: ‘Cause the 12th was when he was lost. June ‘42.
MW: When he went down.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes. And then in the August, on the 17th of August he would have been twenty one.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes.
CB: So what was the, you had a lot of choice of aircrew on the station.
MW: Had a lot of -?
CB: Choice of aircrew ‘cause there was so many.
MW: Oh.
CB: What was special about Doug?
MW: I don’t know really. He was just, we just seemed to hit it off. He was a very good dancer and I wasn’t and he was a very good skater. He skated at the ice rink at Richmond. And, and all that but I don’t know I don’t even know whether I knew him well enough to know how much he appreciated music but I’ve always been fanatic about classical music and I still am but whether or not he was I wouldn’t really know. He had quite a nice twinkle in his eye you know. He was, sort of a nice smile. Other than that -
CB: And was he a navigator? What was he?
MW: Was he - ?
CB: Was he a navigator or - ?
MW: He was observer plus navigator.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. That was a bit more than a navigator.
CB: So he’d been trained in South Africa had he?
MW: No.
CB: Oh he hadn’t. Okay.
MW: No. Here.
CB: Right.
MW: He was a biochemist and he worked for [Joe Lyons] and he’d only just started. Well I mean, obviously, because of his age. He was only twenty, you see when he was killed.
CB: Yeah. And on the airfield, just going a bit broader than this now, you mentioned last time about you were issuing the charts for the raids but the lads would come and talk to you.
MW: Oh, yes they did.
CB: So what was the basis of that?
MW: The basis of that?
CB: Yeah. Their conversations.
MW: Oh their conversations. Well -
CB: Apart from the fact that you were a pretty girl that they came because also they had concerns. Did they?
MW: They would tell you about their personal life. Tell me anyway. And they would say how a lot of them didn’t want to go to the Ruhr and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t know the target at that time when they came in until we went into the briefing room and everybody else was assembled. The met officer and the intelligence officer and briefing and everything and then once they, we had a large board on the wall, blackboard, and they, and then the route and everything was, was up on that board for them and the squadron navigation officer and the intelligence officer would point out various routes to go which were, which had, heavy, heavy flak and or searchlights and things like that but a lot of the time I know that a lot of them didn’t take any notice of what, where and they went their own way. Cheshire did that an awful lot.
CB: Oh did he?
MW: And they would change course and go over the routes that they thought might be more -
CB: From experience.
MW: Yes.
CB: Because what we’re talking about is a big map on the wall isn’t it?
MW: This -
CB: And it shows the route on this huge map -
MW: Yes. But we had -
CB: On the wall at the end of the -
MW: A big blackboard -
CB: Yeah.
MW: As well on the night when we, a big, like at school.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You know, a big blackboard it was and that’s what we had in the intelligence office to write the names of the, we wrote all the names down on the board that were going and who they were and the number of the aircraft and everything.
CB: Right.
MW: On that board so that when, when you came back in the morning, so when they first started coming back, you would be able to, to, you cross off the ones who’d arrived and what time they’d arrived back and then of course the ones that didn’t come back were still there on the board.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But when they came back of course they came straight up to the briefing office, to the interrogation office and the intelligence officer there and I was there and I took the aids to escape from them and made some more, made the tea for them.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But when, when they were talking to me before they took off, not all of them came in but a lot of them came in, it was mainly about they didn’t really like certain targets. Well, that was obvious really that they were heavily, they were going to be heavily bombed, er shot at. The Ruhr was very, very well protected and Hamburg and places, that was a bit further up. Hamburg is a bit further up but um and of course Berlin was almost, at that time, Berlin, you could only carry the Whitleys and the Wellingtons could only just get to Berlin on the fuel they had. And so there was no, no point in trying to go around twice or anything because they hadn’t got the fuel to get there. It was just, just enough fuel to get them in to, in to Berlin and back but, until the Halifax and the Lancasters came in and then they could of course.
CB: So, we’re talking the early part of the war before the heavy bombers -
MW: Yes.
CB: Came in.
MW: Yes.
CB: Right.
MW: And I mean for a lot of the, for a long time when I went to Driffield, at Driffield all they were doing was dropping leaflets from there but um -
CB: How did they feel about that?
MW: Not very good. But we didn’t have it, Chris.
CB: No.
MW: We didn’t have anything. It’s alright for Churchill to stand up there and say that we’ll do this, we’ll do that but we hadn’t anything to do it with until once the factories got going in this country and we made, well we made wonderful progress of course.
CB: So this added to the apprehension of the crews?
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Is what you’re saying?
MW: Yes they wanted to go, those boys. Yes they, but of course a lot of them weren’t so keen on the, on the target. Going in the Halifaxes, they were very so slow but I mean they used to christen the Whitley as a flying coffin.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Oh you know that do you?
CB: I do. Yes. So when the bigger planes came, so we’re talking about the Halifax and Lancasters, but Halifax in Yorkshire, how did the attitude of the crews change?
MW: It did change quite a bit really because they, for one thing we had, at Linton we would have the first Halifaxes to have cameras so you had a camera in there.
CB: For the target.
MW: But it did show a lot. It showed an awful lot in the first, in the beginning that they were, some of them were nowhere near the target.
CB: Right
MW: I shouldn’t say that should I?
CB: No, you should because these are important points and the review that was carried out proved that they were sometimes fifty miles away -
MW: Absolutely.
CB: From the target. And you -
MW: I had a job then –
CB: You were seeing that
MW: In the beginning. I didn’t do a lot of it mind you.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But I did do it because my eyesight is very short-sighted well not very short but good enough to read a very tiny, and I did a lot of looking at the maps when they came back from the cameras and you could see that, you know, then but the boys seemed to appreciate that. And then we had the other. What was it called? H2O I think.
CB: H2S.
MW: H2S.
CB: Yes.
MW: That’s right. Yes.
CB: The radar.
MW: That was fitted and I think that was we were one of the first stations to get that, you see.
CB: Right.
MW: And those maps were very, very secret and we made sure that they signed for them.
CB: Right.
MW: But of course that soon went by the board and everybody got them and that but Linton was very upmarket in that -
CB: Was it?
MW: Respect but it was -
CB: Right.
MW: We were. I don’t know why but, whether we of course later on with Cheshire there and Chesh was there for a long time and it’s – [pause]
CB: So when, when they came back from a raid they came upstairs.
MW: In to the briefing -
CB: Brought the charts back.
MW: In to the interrogation office, yes.
CB: What happened then? How did it then progress with Ivor?
MW: Oh. Well we, they had they had a cup of tea and a biscuit and they, they had a one to one talk with an intelligence officer. We had Ivor Jones and Brylcreem and what was the other ones called? About four of them there.
CB: Right.
MW: One was the manager from Brylcreem. The hair thing.
CB: Right.
MW: We always called him Brylcreem but Ivor Jones was the senior man.
CB: Right.
MW: And, but they all got an interview. A one to one interview with them and asked where they, what they’d done, how, what, what the opposition was like, what the flak was like and, and that and obviously a lot of the time they had been, been, come back with, with a few bomb holes in their, in the aircraft but what height did they bomb from and how many times did they circle around the target and just general things like that and then they were free to go and sometimes they would come back in to my office and have another cup of tea and sit down and talk a bit but other times they went off to the mess and had bacon and eggs and, and you know it was dawn by then you see.
CB: So, what -
MW: But I stayed till about eight in the morning because some nights I was on again you see but I did tell you about the, the, my role in, was, - the establishment in the RAF you know about that. If they allocated, they allocated at that time one map clerk, special duties map clerk for each station and I was that one for Linton but if, if you wanted leave you had to have liaison with one of the corporals or the sergeants in the intelligence office that didn’t deal with maps but would take over from me but I didn’t have a colleague who I could just say, ‘I want leave.’ And that, and that happened on all the stations because we were only needed on bomber stations really because the rest of the, Fighter Command and Coastal and that, they didn’t need a lot of maps there but it was critical for us to have enough maps available for -
CB: Of Germany.
MW: Yes. If, I mean most of it was covered on a 48-4 and the Mercator’s projection map but - [laughs] Yes.
CB: Big.
MW: All came
CB: Rolled up
MW: Rolled up. My poor fingers. They’re very, very harsh. The edges of maps and charts and charts especially. And you’d try to roll them back to get them into these big chests that we had to put them in and they, and you -
CB: Difficult.
MW: Nip your fingers off with the, if you weren’t careful.
CB: So, some of the crew used to return for another cup of tea.
MW: Yes. They did.
CB: It wasn’t the fact it was another cup of tea was it? They came to talk to you.
MW: Probably.
CB: So what would they be talking about in that case?
MW: Oh, what they were going to do, you know, if they, when they got their leave and where they were going to. It’s just, didn’t talk about what they had done so much as what they, their personal life. And I had one or two conscientious objectors and that was very difficult, very difficult because the RAF had paid a lot of money to train a pilot or a navigator and then after eight to ten weeks of training they decided they couldn’t do it and they became conscientious and the RAF is very cruel to those young men.
CB: Ahum.
MW: You know.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Yes.
CB: I’d like to know more though.
MW: Absolutely. Yes.
CB: So what did they do to them?
MW: Well, they, they were just thrown out of the RAF. No two ways about it. There were no references or anything like that given. They weren’t allowed to re-muster to do another job. It was a very cruel and harsh end but a couple of them got out on religious grounds. They couldn’t come to terms with that fact that God didn’t want them to, to kill other people whereas I will say most of the boys I spoke to and Cheshire was certainly had no regrets whatsoever about going over to Germany and bombing. He didn’t. They started this, we’ve got to, we’ve got to, that was Cheshire’s attitude about it but when he, I don’t know what year when he was flying in 617 on the, and he had a Mosquito and he went low level flying and what they call that and he went to a factory to [drop leaflets] to bomb in France.
CB: In France. Yes
MW: You know this do you?
CB: Yes. Go on.
MW: And he circled around three times I think to warn those girls to get out and they did and then he went in and bombed it you see but one of those girls came back to Linton.
Other: Oh really.
MW: To thank him. Yes. And he said, ‘Oh no. Go away’ he said, ‘We don’t, we’re glad you all got out.’ So, that was his attitude but his attitude changed and he was a different character after Hiroshima. And that is what, he was a different character after that.
CB: Because he was on the bomber -
MW: He was on the -
CB: One of the bombers.
MW: Not on the one that dropped the bomb but -
CB: The second one.
MW: The one that was observing. Yes. Yes. I don’t know much about that because it was, it all took place.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You know, there, but it was -
CB: And then he became a Roman Catholic and then he started his Cheshire Homes.
MW: You have to speak up.
CB: He became a Roman Catholic and he -
MW: Oh he was a Roman Catholic.
CB: Also started -
MW: Yes he did.
CB: Started the Cheshire Homes.
MW: The Cheshire Homes with Sue Ryder yes. But I told you about him being married before didn’t -
CB: No. Go on.
MW: Oh didn’t I? Poor old Binney.
CB: Take that for me.
MW: Are you alright for tea?
Other: Yes.
CB: Do you want to stop for a mo?
MW: Yeah okay. Do you want another bit of cake?
[pause]
CB: So, we’ve just taken a brief break and we’ve been talking about conscientious objectors but what about the other people who came under the title LMF. How did you come up against that?
MW: Um I didn’t see a great deal of that apart in, well I suppose in a way it was about three or four of them actually came through aircrew who, who decided that they couldn’t cope and they were known as conscientious objectors. A lot of them did offer the, the reason for not wanting to continue with flying, with, with bombing was that religion and whether or not they’d been religious people before or whether they’d just taken up with religion I really don’t know but it, they were obviously lacking in some moral fibre yes because it takes a lot of nerve to be a bomber pilot at whatever age. They were young men. This must be an awfully hard for you to go out night after night knowing that you’re not, you probably won’t come back and I think these young men probably couldn’t take that. But on the other hand the RAF had, had paid a lot of money to get them trained to be crew, to be aircrew which was all the air crew, as you know Chris were all voluntary reserves. Nobody was conscripted to aircrew and therefore if you felt fit enough and this was what you wanted to do for the country you should have been able to carry it out after that training but um all I did was offer them tea and sympathy but I couldn’t really do much else except listen and, and that’s what I did. To listen to them. They had various problems. They had this and they had that in their personal life which was, which they felt was more important than being, being, being shot down over Germany.
CB: And in many cases they felt a lot better for talking with you.
MW: Well, I wouldn’t know but I think they came so possibly that they did. Yes. Yes, I had a lot of spare time during the day when I was just tidying maps. I had a large office and when I was just tidying maps and checking on numbers of charts and things. Well, one of the charts which was used practically every night was Europe 48-4 on those were I had to order and perhaps if I’d had a delivery well that took a lot of time putting them all away, putting everything away and that but I did have quite a lot of time, spare time, during the day until we got the target and everything and then I needed to get those ready and the aids to escape which all had to be signed for. So, really and truly they, they, they knew that they could probably pop up to see me or pop up for, to have a chat and come in my office.
CB: Could you just explain what the aids to escape were?
MW: Well um they had a lot, the ones that I was involved with were, were things that they put in their boots and there was maps, there’s a silk map. Now one of them, one of these silk maps I had, of France. They’re back to back on both sides. Silk they are. And I, I did have one and I gave it to my cousin and he’s had it framed so you that can have one side one, one side and other as a picture like on the wall and he’s agreed with me that when he dies that he’ll send it to the museum for you. You’ll have it so you can have it.
CB: Thank you.
MW: There -
CB: Yeah.
MW: But um -
CB: What else did they have?
MW: There’s a compass.
CB: Yeah. That’s a small compass.
MW: Small compass.
CB: Pin head type.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Button size.
MW: That’s right. Yes. And what else were they? I don’t remember too much about, about those.
CB: And then they had made their own arrangements for rations.
MW: Ahum. They, one of, one of the group captains at Linton used to wear a civilian suit underneath his, his uniform.
CB: His battle dress, yes.
MW: But he didn’t fly very often. That was Whitley wasn’t it, was it who did that?
CB: So he could immediately go into civilian clothes.
MW: Exactly. Yes. Yes, yeah, strip off everything if they were shot down and they had a chance of getting away.
CB: Now you moved on from Linton to other places. The Halifax had arrived before you moved. The operations were different because of the camera amongst other things.
MW: Before I moved?
CB: But you moved on from, from Linton. Where did you go to next?
MW: Oh but I was at Linton for three and a half years.
CB: Right.
MW: No. It was Driffield. We were bombed out of that.
CB: Of course.
MW: We did that last time didn’t we?
CB: Yes. Yes.
MW: August the 15th we had a daylight raid.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And we were wiped out of Lint –
CB: Yeah
MW: Er Driffield. Ammunition went up, we’d got people killed and that was a day I shall never forget.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Because it was a daylight raid and it was very early on, you see, in 1940 but, and then I was, then I went, we were moved to Pocklington with 102 and 76 and then we went from, I went on a course and, have I not told you this?
CB: What was the course for?
MW: Well they were very short of cooks.
CB: Oh yes.
MW: They sent me to Melksham.
CB: Oh yes.
MW: To do this course and this was, this was a day when the Battle of Britain was on and I can honestly sit here and tell you that I have no recollection whatsoever of what happened there. Where I was. It is as if there’s a complete blank.
CB: Really.
MW: I know I went to Melksham. I know I passed the course and I know that I came back to Linton but I’ve no other recollection at all and that was because, the only recollection I have of being there is that we were scared out of our wits because they were bombing day and night, daylight bombing and it just went on and on. You couldn’t, but I have a good memory as you know.
CB: This was Germans bombing you?
MW: But I can’t tell you a thing about that.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Nothing.
CB: You’re talking about the Germans bombing you?
MW: Yes. Oh yes. That was the battle yes, the Battle of Britain. That was on then. And then I came back to Linton and that’s where I stayed but I went back to Linton in to the officers’, to the sergeants’ mess to do, to do cooking and I, there was a civilian cook there ‘cause they did have a lot of civilians still working on the stations from the remains from before the war, you see. And the civilian chef and he, he used to give the orders and I took the rations across to the intelligence office. He said to me, ‘Will you take the rations across for the flying,’ for that night. The, the sergeant’s mess and the officers’ mess provided the rations. The tea and the sugar and the biscuits to make tea for them when they came back, you see and I took them across there and Ivor Jones, the intelligence officer, looked up from his desk when I went in and he said, ‘Where are you from?’ And I said, ‘I’m from the sergeants’ mess. I’ve brought the rations for tonight.’ And he said, ‘Oh would you come downstairs with me?’ He said, ‘Would you like, do you know anything about maps?’ I said, ‘No. Not a lot.’ And he said, he said ‘Where is the mouth of the Danube? Do you know that?’ I remember this as plain as anything. I said, is it in the Red, in the, er where was it now? It’s in the, can’t get it, it’ll come back and he said oh and what about so and so and so and so and I seemed to provide him with the answers but I said, ‘What’s all this about sir?’ And he said, ‘I want you to come and work for me.’ I said, ‘I can’t do that.’ I said, ‘I’m already in the, in the -’ you know what it was like in the RAF you had to have a re-muster put you to all the re-mustering, do all that and send it away and they would put it through to the officers in charge. I know this was very early on in the war, in 1940 but it’s he seemed to take command. He was an ex-military man and he, we always called him the colonel and he said, ‘Report to me tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.’ I went back to the civilian chef and he said, ‘He can’t do that. He can’t take my staff.’ I said, ‘Well what I do?’ And so anyway I thought I’d better do what he says. He’s a squadron leader. So I went back and he said, ‘One of these lads, these corporals in the intelligence office, will show you what to do and you can go on a course in about a week’s time to Gloucester and, and then you’ll come back and when you come back you’ll be a corporal. And this, all this happened, you see. It was most, I mean you, you might think I’m telling you a really big story but I’m not. I assure you that is exactly what happened.
CB: And this was all when you were aged nineteen.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: This was when you were aged nineteen.
MW: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: Twenty actually.
CB: Twenty.
MW: Yeah. This is what happened and it was so out of character for anybody to do. I don’t think you’d find anyone else in the RAF who had been promoted like that by, by a squadron leader. Just, just said, ‘Look, you come and you - ,’ and I thought about it afterwards and I thought well I really didn’t know very much. I hadn’t, I had, I wasn’t very good at school really but I was good at geography funnily enough but I wasn’t all that bright at school because I wanted to be outside. I spent most of the time looking out of the window you know instead of paying attention to the board but I think it was perhaps not, it’s not charisma but it’s attraction. People want to talk to me.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And I think he knew that. And of course -
CB: He could sense it.
MW: And this is what worked for him. These boys needed someone. Not motherly love at nineteen or twenty years old but that sort of, so that was where I was and that was where I stayed for the rest of the um until later on. He, he then, Ivor Jones said, ‘I’ve put a recommendation in for you for a commission’. He said, ‘You’ve got an interview,’ on so and so and so and so and I thought about and I said, ‘I don’t want it sir.’ He said, ‘You don’t want it?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want it.’ And he said, ‘Well,’ Anyway I went and I got accepted but I still didn’t want it.
CB: Ahum.
MW: So I refused and he said, ‘Why don’t you want it?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be an admin officer for a start.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be and I don’t want to be, to go away from these boys. I don’t want to leave this job. This job is what I like doing.’ I didn’t like it in that sense but I did, I felt I was needed then, you know. Sort of needed there with looking -
CB: Ahum.
MW: And then a bit later on, another year later he said, ‘Are you, would you, would you consider doing, having a commission now?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want it.’ It just didn’t appeal to me.
CB: No.
MW: To be sitting at a desk or -
CB: Quite.
MW: Or doing these things so then I moved. I’d say I moved on then a bit. I think we’ve done all this -
CB: I think we have. I need to ask you a couple of other things if I may. One is, you were a number of several hundred WAAFs. Two hundred perhaps.
MW: Oh on the station.
CB: On the station.
MW: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the general link between the association between the WAAFs and the flying people?
MW: The flying?
CB: The aircrew.
MW: The aircrew.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Oh we all, all the girls loved them of course. I mean if you wanted a date you didn’t have, it wasn’t much if you didn’t have a date with, with, with aircrew or with an officer or something like that you, you, you were aiming a bit high but with aircrew yes they all liked the aircrew boys ‘cause they were fun you see. They were great, they were really, and er but I didn’t have much to do with the other WAAFs really because I was on shift work, you see. I mean my, my duties weren’t nine to five although I was usually there about 9 o’clock but because I would then have to be, be back in the evening, in the middle of the night and that was a bit traumatic when we, we had a very bad raid one night. We were always having, we were always being bombed at that time. They seemed to target the RAF stations up, up in the north and Cheshire came back and said, ‘It looks worse than we’ve left, what we’ve done in Germany.’ This RAF at Linton but um after then they decided that the WAAF couldn’t sleep on the camp so we were billeted out to various large houses in the vicinity and my, I went to Newton on Ouse which is just down the road from Linton. If you’ve been to Linton you probably know it’s just down the road and um but that wasn’t very good because I had to be, go on my bike in the middle of the night to get back to the office to, for interrogation you see and they used to be droning overhead and me on my bike trying to get back because you weren’t allowed lights or anything. But -
CB: It was dangerous on the road was it?
MW: On the road? At -
CB: Yes.
MW: Not in the middle of the night it wasn’t. No. No, it was, it’s very countrified, you know um but you couldn’t see where you were going in the middle of the night with no lights on.
CB: No.
MW: And there’s aircraft droning overhead but, the ones that were coming back because as I say I stayed until, until we cleared everybody and then it was about 8 o’clock or 9 o’clock and then you were so tensed up you couldn’t go to bed really so we used to hop off into York and have a play around, you know, in York for a bit, come back in the afternoon and have a bit of sleep because you might, I might be, be back on again in the evening you see. If the weather was good then I, you would be back on duty again but if the weather was bad you would have a few days off if it wasn’t fit for flying.
CB: Finally, fast forward to 1945.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: 1945.
MW: Yes.
CB: Fast forward to 1945. You, in your diary you’ve got a very brief statement on the 8th of May, VE day. About the end of the hostilities in Europe. The end of the war.
MW: Yes.
CB: Was the 8th of May. How did you feel at that time?
MW: Where, where the 8th of May, where was?
CB: So you’ve put in here, I’m going to have to do, you’ve put in here, “Down to the beach with Pam and Ray. Peace declared with Germany. Had tea at the Met Office.” So -
MW: Oh is it -?
CB: What happened really that day? Did everybody celebrate?
MW: Oh yes.
CB: Did it just go over their heads?
MW: Went mad. Everyone -
CB: Or what happened?
MW: Oh went mad down at the beach and you let all the dogs out. You know, some of the crews and we, we, had their dogs with them but they couldn’t have on the station. They had them boarded out you see and we went and got all the dogs and took them for a walk down on the beach. It was quite a nice day actually then wasn’t it. That, that year.
CB: And then on VJ day the end of the war in the Far East.
MW: Yes.
CB: Then -
MW: Oh I went to down to Plymouth didn’t I, because we were dancing in the Hoe in the middle of the night. Yes. That’s right.
CB: So, there really was a lot of celebration was there?
MW: Oh dear yes.
CB: With these things.
MW: Yes
MW: Yes. So it sounded as though there was plenty going on then.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Yeah. Right.
MW: Well I wasn’t tied up with anybody at all of course. I didn’t get tied up with anybody after Douglas was killed until -
CB: No.
MW: Until I got, got to know Roy. I did know plenty of boys. I mean there was no shortage of friends to go out and that but I wasn’t over serious about anybody.
CB: No.
MW: Until as I say and that was sometimes think it probably wasn’t a good thing but on the other hand I should, should have probably given it a bit more time but it seemed to me that he was very keen to get married and, and at that time he was a very different person you see.
CB: Of course.
MW: A completely different person but this is what people as you say about the young marriages you, about Douglas, there’s nothing to say that that couldn’t have gone completely wrong because you don’t know the future do you?
Other: No.
CB: No.
MW: Although you think at the time that it’s all going to go -
CB: Yes.
MW: Alright but er -
CB: Yes. There’s another entry where there’s a chap who takes you on a flight after the war is finished over France.
MW: Yes. Oh yes.
CB: How on earth did you manage that?
MW: Well, yes. I was a bit privileged in those days and we yes we went over to France. That was, that wasn’t Roy’s crew. That was another crew. That was from Brawdy wasn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
MW: Yes and oh my goodness me how those, I really got to know what it was like being, being on board a Halifax with going over there oh it was awful. So little space in those things. You couldn’t, and of course you had to wear oxygen masks in those things. Nowadays, it’s completely different and yes that was quite exciting. I’d been wanting a flight but when I got to, I was at Shawbury, not Shawbury, Silverstone. You know the race course that was RAF and I was there for a short time. It was training and they wanted somebody to, to clear the map office ‘cause they hadn’t they’d had they hadn’t had anybody but they had a lot of instruments hanging about, navigational instruments so I went there for a short while and while I was there the nav officer said to me, he said, ‘Now if you don’t behave yourself you’re going up to Lossiemouth tomorrow’[laughs]. He would, he would threaten me you see and I kept saying, ‘Now when you’re going to Oxford again can I come for the trip?’ And he promised me. ‘Yes, he would. We would go.’ So, this particular day it was a really lovely sunny day and I said. ‘Now, look, can I come to Oxford with you if you’re going? And, ‘Oh alright but you won’t like it.’ I said, ‘But look it’s a lovely sunny day.’ Of course it was. There was all this, all this cloud about you see and oh God it was a terrible trip. This was in one these twin light aircraft. What was it? Anson?
CB: Anson.
MW: Anson. Yes.
CB: Avro Anson.
MW: Anson Avro Anson. It was the most awful trip. I’ve never felt so sick.
CB: Did you sit up at the front?
MW: Hmmn? Yeah I went up to the -
CB: Did you sit up at the front?
MW: Yes of course but of course it’s the cloud -
CB: Twin engine. Yes.
MW: But you have to run into cloud and then it went whoohoo! all over the place in those light aircraft in those days.
CB: I must just go to the loo.
MW: Ahum.
CB: Thank you.
MW: I hope it’s clean and tidy. Anyway how are the flowers?
Other: Oh doing well. Thank you very much.
MW: Are you still going?
Other: I’m still going.
MW: Oh good.
Other: Only, only really it’s more of a social thing I suppose because I’ve been doing it -
MW: Don’t, don’t give it up.
Other: No I won’t.
MW: It’s so therapeutic.
Other: It’s my, it’s one of my pastimes.
MW: Isn’t it?
Other: Yes. That’s right.
MW: The next time you come I’ve got a really lovely Daphne out here.
Other: Oh have you?
MW: Yes Daphne, not Miseria um Daphne Odora
Other: Ah huh.
MW: Marginata. And the scent is gorgeous.
Other: ‘Cause not many, not many flowers have a scent now do they?
MW: Not at this time of the year. No.
Other: No.
MW: No. And my, at the back I’ve got so many Hellebores out this year.
Other: Have you? Its’ been a good year for Hellebores.
MW: Have you got Hellebores?
Other: I have. They’re down at the bottom of the garden.
MW: Oh right.
Other: I can just see them.
MW: Yeah.
Other: I’m being very lazy actually because I need a gardener to come again and sort me out.
MW: Right.
Other: The lawns are all fine. They’re all being treated
MW: Yes.
Other: And airyated and God knows what but um -
MW: Well I have the gardener once a fortnight and I’m not giving up that.
Other: No, your garden’s lovely. Your garden’s lovely but you’ve got good soil.
MW: Ahum.
Other: My soil is clay based.
MW: Oh yes.
Other: And it’s a nightmare.
MW: Well I say good. This is sand really it’s -
Other: Yeah.
MW: Sandy.
Other: But it’s looks lovely rich, dark soil.
MW: The water runs through that you need in the summer. It goes very dry.
Other: Yeah.
MW: But I mean the Camelia’s on this wall I brought some the other day. Out already, you see.
Other: Well it doesn’t know what season it is.
MW: Look at the Daffs.
Other: I know. It’s all the same. I know. They’ve all come through haven’t they? It’s incredible.
MW: Yes. What it’s going to be like in a couple of months because everything will be gone.
Other: Well that’s right.
MW: They’re forecasting snow for the weekend aren’t they?
Other: Yes. Yes they are.
MW: The Daphne’s done very well this year and Peter, my friend brought me another one. What’s that one called? That’s over the side there but I don’t, hopefully it’s going to go, go, right in the corner when, as you go out. The Sarcococca, have you got that?
Other: No. I haven’t.
MW: Oh that’s, when you go, when you go out it’s right on the drive.
Other: Ok.
MW: It’s got little white flowers on it.
Other: Lovely.
MW: And the scent is fantastic.
Other: Beautiful. Oh I’ll have to look.
MW: Just pick a bit and take it off with you.
Other: I’ll just have a little look.
MW: Smell it in the car going out.
CB: Sounds super. Thank you.
Other: Yes.
MW: It’s really gorgeous.
Other: Yes. Yes
MW: Yes. Everything seems to be -
Other: Well as I say nothing knows what season it is.
MW: What it is, no.
Other: That’s the trouble.
MW: No.
Other: Isn’t it? Everything’s coming through far too early.
CB: Well the trees are blossoming where I am.
Other: Yeah it’s crazy isn’t it?
CB: Well we were just talking about the Daphne’s and things but I say my garden comes first. I mean I could really go to town on this house and have it all decorated but I’m not going to.
Other: Why bother? No. It’s, it’s
MW: Why spend the, I’d rather spend the money on the garden, you see.
Other: Exactly. Exactly ahum.
CB: You need to get going in a minute I know but final point blossoming is interesting comment in a way, a word because you have all these young girls who are WAAFs on an airfield and you have these young men and they were young men become real men very quickly in the terror of the war. How did the WAAFs react? They blossomed quickly? What was the sort of way things went with WAAFs?
MW: What was the -
CB: How did they react to being in the air force in these circumstances?
MW: In - ?
CB: How did the WAAFs react to being in front line station like Linton?
MW: I don’t think we thought anything about it. I didn’t think, I don’t think we even gave it a thought that we were in, no, I’m sure we didn’t.
CB: But they grew up quickly as well.
MW: We grew up quickly and oh yes, my goodness.
Other: Had to.
MW: You had to. We, it wasn’t, we were there to do a job and at the RAF as you know they, don’t suffer fools gladly. You have to do that job. I’m very concentrated and if I but I go in the straight line, I can’t sit on the, everything goes this way but of course I’m very much a perfectionist as well and I think that gives you, in the RAF that’s, they don’t want, they can’t have people who can’t take orders. If you’re given an order you that’s it, isn’t it?
CB: Let’s get on with it.
Other: Yeah.
MW: No, I don’t honestly think that any of the WAAFs that I knew I knew mostly met office girls in the later stages because sharing a hut and being, being, being an NCO you had, you were given charge of a hut or a house. In the early days at Linton and at Driffield I lived in the married quarters that belonged, that the RAF people had vacated when, you know, the wives, when the war started.
CB: Ahum.
MW: We had their bedding and everything because that was all supplied by the RAF as it is today of course. They, you, you go in naked and you come out naked really don’t you? Because they provide everything -
CB: Yes.
MW: For you but, and it is a very good life if you, if you can stand the discipline.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes.
CB: So here we are in a barrack hut with all these young girls. How difficult were they, as their corporal, to manage their activities?
MW: It wasn’t very difficult really. I know there are a lot of stories. I’ve heard a lot of stories about the WAAF went off with airmen and got pregnant and so on and so forth but it was few and far between in my experience. I mean, you had to be in at five to midnight or whatever it was and you did it. I mean, If the circumstances where you didn’t catch the bus well you just had to pay the price for it. It was there were no excuse in the RAF.
CB: Ahum
Other: No.
MW: No. You just and I think, in my opinion the RAF is rather maligned really in as much what we did during that war hasn’t been, had enough said about it. We did, Bomber Command didn’t win the war as people have said but my goodness what we’d have done without them I’m afraid is, I dread to think. We couldn’t, with Hiroshima coming forward that much if we hadn’t done Hiroshima we would still have been fighting now wouldn’t we? They wouldn’t have given in would they?
CB: No.
MW: No. No.
CB: Well on that note I think we’d better let you get on. Thank you very much indeed and we’ll arrange another meeting. Thank you -
MW: Well I don’t think we have done very much today.
Other: Let’s get all this into -
CB: We’re just talking about Mary’s dog tags and the plane. What was the origins of those.
MW: The dog -?
CB: Those that everybody wore.
MW: Oh yes one is fireproof and the other’s waterproof. Yes.
CB: Right.
MW: And I don’t know which is which mind you but if you were in a bombing raid over here or anywhere if you’d been, if there was very little left that would still be there to recognise, say that that was you.
CB: Ahum.
MW: You had been there and equally if you’d been drowned this one of them would be.
CB: Right.
MW: We were issued with these on the first day and you wore them around your neck.
CB: Right. And it’s got your service number on it.
MW: Yes, your, its um and your religion.
CB: Yes.
MW: I think. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: I say that. They need a bit of a clean-up.
CB: Okay.
CB: And this is little bits of silverware when they were making the Mosquito. They had to use a certain amount of silver in it and there were little bits left over and the boys would make little things like, and this is -
CB: A brooch.
MW: It’s a little brooch from, it’s pure silver and it is from a Mosquito.
CB: Fantastic yeah.
MW: A Mosquito? Yes, it would be, I think. Yes.
CB: Ok. Thank you.
MW: And you’re very welcome to those.
CB: So what we’re looking at now is the detail.
MW: Yes these are -
CB: Where the grave -
MW: Are all the correspondence from you?
CB: Yes. Thank you. And in your binder here we’ve got details of the grave of
MW: Yes.
CB: Douglas Arthur Harsum, your fiancé.
MW: Yes. That’s 58 Squadron. That’s his number and reserve -
CB: And he died on the 12th of June 1942.
MW: Yes. And I think that’s the rest of the crew and that’s his headstone -
CB: Right.
MW: In Bilbao. And these are on board the boat.
CB: How many years was it before you found where he was buried?
MW: This is only about eight or nine years ago.
CB: Right. So it -
MW: Going back.
CB: So it took sixty years -
MW: Yes.
CB: To find out -
MW: To find out.
CB: Where he was.
MW: Ahum.
MW: And I stood there and I mean it’s probably been on the internet. My cousin came for the day and I’d had this well not because of that but I said to him, ‘When you’re playing about on your computer would you like to have a look and see if you can find where this young man was buried?’ And he came back with it. Hello.
Other2: Hello. Hello. Hello.
Other: Hello.
MW: I said um and he came back the next morning. He said, ‘Well that was easy there was only one Harsum in the RAF.’ Because it’s a very unusual name.
CB: Yeah, indeed yeah.
MW: And he said he’s in so and so and so and so and I said to Roy, ‘Would you like to come?’ And he said, ‘No I wouldn’t,’ he said, ‘But why don’t you ask David if he would.’ So we, I rang David and I said, ‘How do you think about it?’ I said, ‘If I pay everything because I’d got this legacy you see from -
CB: Oh did you? Yes.
MW: And I said the three of us will go. And we went and I stood in front of that headstone and it was, I could almost hear Douglas say. ‘You’ve come at last.’
CB: Really?
MW: It was -
CB: It’s very touching.
MW: Strange. It really is. But it’s such a beautiful place.
CB: Is it?
MW: And do you know when we went in the lady that keeps it going she’s English married to um whether he’s Italian I think he’s probably Italian and she took us to the little, the book where you can, and I wrote in it.
CB: A Book of Remembrance
MW: And there’s a little church, a catholic church and, and a protestant church. Catholic one’s not used very often but she said the protestant one they always use it on Remembrance Day and it is open on some occasions but it’s so well kept.
CB: Is it?
MW: And this is a communal grave of course.
CB: Yes. Right -
MW: But that’s on board the, the Bilbao and -
CB: That is the
MW: That’s the -
CB: Commonwealth War Graves. Yes.
MW: And there are the war graves. Can you see [?]
Other: Yes, I can see. Yes. Yes.
MW: You can see and these are, [pause] oh that’s Lorna and me.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And that’s the lady who looks after it and I say there was a cockerel running around.
CB: Oh was there?
MW: I think that’s him there. And when we went back a couple of days later there was a rabbit
CB: Oh was there?
MW: Running around.
CB: Really?
Other: Wow
MW: Beautifully kept.
CB: Yes.
MW: And these are all the ones that, is this of any interest?
CB: Yes. Thank you.
MW: Would you like to take it?
CB: We’d like to borrow that as well.
MW: Would you?
CB: Yes. And let you have that back.
MW: Ok. Oh well you can have a look -
CB: Yeah.
MW: At it when you get back.
CB: Thank you.
MW: I mean you, as I say there’s only us three on it.
CB: Yes.
MW: And you’ll recognise me -
CB: But it’s an important link in what you’ve been talking about.
MW: Right. Well you take that.
CB: Thank you.
MW: And I’ll keep all your correspondence.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mary Ward. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Ward joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in 1940. She served briefly at RAF Driffield but mostly at RAF Linton on Ouse. She trained as a cook before being moved to duties as a map officer. She prepared maps for briefings and debriefings. She was engaged to a flying officer, Douglas Arthur Harsum, who was killed in action on 12 June 1942. She offered a listening ear to aircrew who would visit her for tea and a chat. She describes their fears and the dilemmas of those whom she calls ‘conscientious objectors’. For a time she worked in the office next to Leonard Cheshire’s. She describes the VE and VJ Day celebrations, as well as a flight she took in a Halifax over France. She transferred to RAF Coastal Command towards the end of the war, serving at RAF Brawdy, where she met her husband Roy Ward. She also describes visiting Harsum’s grave in Bilbao some sixty years after his death.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-17
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:11:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWardEM160217
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Spain
Spain--Bilbao
Yemen (Republic)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942-06-12
1945
aircrew
animal
briefing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
debriefing
fear
final resting place
grief
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
heirloom
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
military service conditions
operations room
RAF Driffield
RAF Linton on Ouse
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1213/8847/AGrundyAF150707.1.mp3
16c04ada25c70bfe8f8c41c6fb4da2c5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Donaldson, David
David Donaldson
D Donaldson
Description
An account of the resource
309 Items and a sub-collection of 51 items. Concerns Royal Air Force career of Wing Commander David Donaldson DSO and bar, DFC. A pilot, he joined the Royal Air Force Reserve in 1934. Mobilized in 1939. he undertook tours on 149, 57 and 156 and 192 Squadrons. He was photographed by Cecil Beaton at RAF Mildenhall in 1941. Collection contains a large number of letters to and from family members, friends as well as Royal Air Force personnel. Also included are personal and service documents, and his logbooks. In addition, there are photographs of family, service personnel and aircraft. After the war he became a solicitor. The collection also contains an oral history interview with Frances Grundy, his daughter.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anna Frances Grundy and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
2022-10-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Donaldson, D
Grundy, AF
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: So this is an interview with Frances Grundy, my name is Dan Ellin, and this is for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive and we are at the University of Lincoln, and it is Tuesday, 7th of the 7th 2015. I’d just like to say thank you very much for donating all the objects that you have for us to scan and all the things to do with your father. Could you start by telling us a little about where and when you were born and your early life please?
FG: Well I was born in Dorking during the war in 1942, my father wasn’t actually out bombing at the time but he was certainly actively bombing as it were. We moved around a lot during the war, and the only memories I have of that are really the names of places that they’ve told me about, and of course my grandparents who we visited a lot. My paternal grandparents lived in Southampton and we certainly went there in the war me and my mother, but other places just sort of place names as it were. So it wasn’t till after the war that we moved to London and my father was demobbed and he took up his solicitor’s articles again. And from sort of 1946 onwards I do have clear recollections of life as it were, of what was happening. We had a tiny little house in South Kensington, for five pounds a week that they rented behind a posh Crescent, it was quite near to the Brompton Oratory, and there was a bomb site right in front of our house. And about that time I started going to school up the Brompton Road, the Hampshire School, Susan Hampshire, you won’t remember her, her mother ran a rather strange school but it was quite interesting, and we danced and learned lots of things. And that moved to a church hall nearby behind Harrods and lots of trestle tables, and dancing and things and playing rounders in Hyde Park opposite, well in Hyde Park. Then at eight they sent me off to boarding school, which was a disaster for me because I didn’t like leaving home at eight, and I stayed, that was in, that was near my grandmother who’d by that time moved from Southampton to Lymington, and it was a nice place but I was very very very very home sick, and it was a tradition of the family that you sent the children off young to school. My mother had gone very young to school because her father was a Padre, and so she had gone young to boarding school even younger than me but I wasn’t, I was just plain home sick. They then moved house in about 1950 to another house in Chelsea, which my father lived in until he died in 2004, and I was happy there but again I was sent off to boarding school in Winchester, so all my sort of school days happened in Hampshire, and I came home to London for the holidays. My father moved, he remained a solicitor in the city, I can’t remember when he moved to the NEM, the National Employers Mutual Insurance Company, and probably in the mid-fifties, and then he moved to, he became the Chairman of an Industrial Tribunal when he was sixty so that would be 1975 I think wouldn’t it. Do you want to hear about me now?
DE: Oh yes, you can tell me anything you like.
FG: You said.
DE: What did you do when you left school?
FG: I went to Keele and read maths and economics, and enjoyed the work very very much and particularly the maths, I wasn’t a very good mathematician but I enjoyed the sort of puzzle of it. And then went to work for ICI as a, in the maths group they were doing operational research to optimise the production of chemicals at Mond Division in Cheshire, and worked with a very interesting man who was brilliant at making equations out of chemical production, I couldn’t believe it as I watched it you know. You told him what the inputs were to the products, and what the capacity of the plant was, and all that kind of thing, and all the by-products and everything and he made these absolutely fantastic equations. Anyway we, me and my colleagues, we had to put these into an operational research package which optimised it, and then the result came out, and then you had to write a report, I enjoyed that actually. I got married to John, who was at Keele he was a lecturer in philosophy in 1966, and then I went to work at English Electric Computers for a bit. And then I was pregnant with my daughter who was born in ‘68. And I got a job at Keele in the computer centre and I worked in the computer centre until about 1980, and then got a lectureship in 1981, at the time of the cuts of 1981, and stayed there till I retired. I did a lot on women in computing, women and computers, we wrote a book together called “Women And Computers” which was successful when it came out, it didn’t go down a treat with my employers. I did take my employer to an Industrial Tribunal in 1979 for being passed over and I won, two to one, I admit, it wasn’t a very good win but it was a win and it was 1979 so. [laughs] And but then you know conscious of the fact that there were no women in computing I started to do work on general computing and wrote this book, and got a lot of invitations to go to mainly Northern Europe to talk. And what was quite interesting there was that here I was going to Germany and talking, and you know giving these talks, and making massive friends with German people, generally a lot, a lot younger than me, and but there were interesting things that happened then actually. They were very conscious of the war even the young people that you know they were very conscious of the war I think, well not the young, people my age too. Can I pause for a minute just to collect my thoughts on that because I haven’t thought about it for a long time? The first time I went, I went to Dresden and that’s what really got, well it is relevant, because Dresden you know, Dresden was beautiful and a mess when I got there, but as I left the front, I went to stay with him in London before I left and caught the went to Heathrow or whatever. He said it’s extraordinary, he said, ‘Remember they’re still the’ my father rather, ‘Remember they’re still the enemy’. And I couldn’t believe my ears. [laughs] And I told, and my mother had just died, he was very traumatised by her death, very traumatised, I mean their marriage was was very important to him because of the circumstances under which it happened, under which it all occurred. And I reminded him some years later what he’d said, he said ‘Did I say that?’ You know I mean it was quite extraordinary. And then I had a good German friend whom I worked with in Freiburg and so on and once he said to me, ‘Invite him over tell him to come and see me.’ Because he was reasonably fit at that time, so I went and said, ‘Are you coming?’ He said, ‘no.’ He said he wouldn’t come but he didn’t fly much after the war. And one of the comments he made one of his ho ho jokes, ‘I might fall out of the aeroplane’. Anyway you know there were all sorts of strange reactions in the, back home his brother said to me, and I was obviously very friendly with the Germans, and I was, I was going to all sorts of places a did a big sort of tour giving talks in, not entirely in Germany, in Sweden and Finland and also Austria, and. [pause] Sorry I’ve lost my track again sorry I’ve gone blank I’ve dried up. [pause] Yes I was also very conscious of the fact that my my younger colleagues knew there had been a war, and I did didn’t think about it with them I just wanted to know Germany as Germany is known now, you know the recent programmes on on the on Germany by the Director of the British Museum, Neil McGregor. I mean he was really, that’s the kind of thing I quite liked, and so I my there wasn’t no dislike of Germany and all this had been sort of coming up over the years. And then I retired at in 2004, just after he died and came to live in Lincoln, because my daughter’s working here and I really like the city.
DE: So you were away at boarding school an awful lot during your childhood, what was your father like what were your memories of your father when you were at home?
FG: I, I mean it was a very very strong relationship, it was a great friendship, there wasn’t, all the disciplining really happened at school. And in a sense I’ve passed that on to my children that I haven’t disciplined them properly as they’ve all said, because you were disciplined at school and then you came home for the holidays and and had a good time. But he was always looking after me in a sense, he was sending me things, he was contacting me, they were always writing, they knew I was homesick. And we used to go for summer holidays to my grandfather once he’d retired from the Air Force, went to a small parish in Shropshire where he had this fantastic vicarage and we had wonderful holidays there. And that does bring back the war, because there were things like his flying jacket which he gave to a local farmer, and silk petticoats you know silk, parachute silk, was still around and people talked about it and that kind of thing the residue of the war was still there, this was ‘47/’48 you know. And he used to come up and we used to have these fantastic holidays, and he walked and biked and swam in the lake, and he had a, he had a complete costume, a one piece costume, and he swam the lake and caught a fish down it. [laughs] He was very, he walked a lot, he always walked a lot and he always swam a lot, because having been brought up in Southampton he liked the sea and he liked, they sailed, they all had they had sailing boats and things that they, and he rowed, he didn’t row when I knew him but he rowed as an undergraduate, but he biked and walked, he was quite fitness conscious.
DE: Did he ever talk to you or mention his time in the RAF?
FG: Very, very rarely. The subject would come up and it’s so difficult to recall because was it so much part of their lives. Like he had a friend Ken Kendrick, who appears in a lot of his photographs, and Ken Kendrick was my, and he was friendly with Ken and his wife Ara, and they were friendly right through my childhood and teenage-hood so Ken kept turning up so. And they used to sit and talk about Mildenhall, I think it was Mildenhall, I don’t know it might have been later actually, but they, and they went, they all had a reunion there. And they drove round the airfield and they were going sort of joking as they drove down the runway and they could see the church which you lined up with the runway and all that kind of thing. But nothing about, I think the more interesting things actually, I mean his engagement to my mother was incredibly important to him, I mean and it was only when she died that I realised you know, he was it was just the whole thing was, and how much it was influenced by the war which it obviously was. [background noise] [asking someone working a question]. How much it was influenced by the war I don’t know, in the sense that it that must have heightened the romance, or heightened the you know, that he you know he had this this thing which must have supported him in some way I think. Your question was what did he talk about the war? My mother said more probably, not about, I mean he never talked to me about flying, except well he never talked to me about it, in his dotage I got a mobile and [laughs] he’s sitting in a wheelchair in this in Chiswick Garden [?] in Chelsea and I gave it him to hold and to talk to somebody with and he used it just like an intercom [laughs], that kind of thing because he’d never used a mobile you know kind of you know.
DE: [Unclear] to his ear and left it there.
FG: But there was nothing really. Can I have another minute? There was you know the only thing I can remember was once they somehow got a Lancaster to Battersea Park, and I was about it must have been the time of about the time of the Festival of Britain[?] I don’t know what it was must have been a copy or something, but he was definitely there and there were RAF personnel showing people around so you could clamber in and clamber out, pretty sure it was a Lancaster. And he said to these men this was ’51 right ’52 something like that, and he said to these men, ‘I flew one.’ I’ve never seen him say anything like that, ‘I flew one of these’ you know, and you know they were impressed. And I was quite sort of surprised by him telling them you know, I won’t say bragging about it at all, just you know he was proud enough to say it you know, I can remember that emotion because you got so little of that you know most of the time.
DE: Right so that was an unusual thing for him to do yes?
FG: But what I was going to say was what my mother was said about drinking. They did drink and when I had my twenty-first birthday party they let me have our house and they disappeared somewhere, and apparently they, there was a basement you know come down steps and they came to have a look at what was going on if the house was getting totally damaged, they crept down I couldn’t I didn’t seem them and when they came back the next day or so they said, ‘Well that was a sober affair’. [laughs] And she was so you know how much she’d seen of people being carried out with darts in their kidneys and you know, and people swinging on, I mean them swinging on light fittings lit up, and that kind of thing. And he once, I don’t know, he went out to - this was when I was about fifteen sixteen - he went out to some cocktail party and he must have drunk quite a bit and when he came back he was quite drunk, and she just grinned and carried it through, and she was obviously used to it that was you know, she said he hadn’t been like this since the war, and I was you know, it’s a different personality, I couldn’t, it only happened once or twice after that at fifteen/sixteen, I’d never seen it before you know it was quite shattering.
DE: But you think it seems like it was a normal state of affairs during the war?
FG: I don’t know how normal, but she had obviously seen it before and could cope with it quite well, I don’t know how you know, I just don’t know.
DE: When were they married you say it was very important to him you think?
FG: Well they got engaged in, they were married in ’41 in June, and again he talked about the day of the marriage, I don’t know and when he bought the engagement ring and so on. It was important to him and he didn’t really let on until he was you know he was everything was cut from under him when she died. And the second time he got drunk was actually here, when he came up here after her death and he was you know he was grieving something awful, and I had to follow him back to his hotel that was a bit scary. [laughs] He walked all the way up Steep Hill without stopping he was eighty plus, and he also walked up to the roof of the cathedral at eighty plus.
DE: Crickey.
FG: With a stick so he didn’t do badly you know. But I mean there wasn’t a history of drink at all, and in a sense that’s why I tell the story because when you see the films of people drinking you can begin to understand it because she just gave me this brief insight into it you know of. And then there’s that story in that letter, I don’t know if you read it, that somebody had wrote after he died saying that he had an Australian who had, he had come up, my father had come up to this man who was in the bar drinking a pint and he said, ‘Are you flying tomorrow?’ And that was it, the man said he put the pint aside and that was it.
DE: Yes I have read that.
FG: And I thought it was was quite significant in a way.
DE: Suggests there was a time and a place.
FG: Yes.
DE: And it’s not before an operation.
FG: No. As if he was quite strict about it, and at that young age I don’t know how old he was then, at that fairly young age he could influence people like that without saying anything. I mean other things you know that aren’t relevant, was he had to write a lot of letters to people to the relatives of the dead, of those killed, and he found that quite a strain I think because he was very careful composer of text and letters, and he would put his best effort into it and I do remember him saying that was quite a strain and he actually got his mother to help him sometimes because he needed you know.
DE: Really.
FG: Which is quite interesting. He, later on in life, he I mean he went on fighting even though he’d stopped I don’t think, I don’t think he would have liked life in the RAF, I don’t think it was post-war, I don’t think it would have been interesting for him. I think there was no, I don’t, I can’t say fighting was, I don’t know, but it wouldn’t have been interesting enough for whatever reason, obviously he didn’t like fighting but you know I mean he’d commit himself to that if had to. But he had huge battles at the NEM where he reported, he reported somebody from the DTI for misbehaviour and you know. And then when I took that the case to the Industrial Tribunal he provided a huge amount of help to me over that, and he was right behind me, completely behind me you know, writing documents, having ideas and getting me to find appropriate lawyers and things like that.
DE: Yes, so he liked conflict through just cause?
FG: He did, he did yes, yes, very very much so. I think that’s something that I’ve inherited rightly or wrongly I mean I think I tend to be over the top sometimes I think I probably tried to emulate him. [laughs]
DE: That’s interesting. I think this sounds like seems like a good time to discuss the Imperial War Museum and your father’s photographs could you tell us a little bit about those?
FG: Well as everybody knows Cecil Beaton went to, not everybody but, Cecil Beaton went to Mildenhall in ’41 was it? He describes it in his diaries and took a lot of photographs of, what was as the number of the squadron?
DE: I can’t remember we’ll look it up.
FG: But it was that squadron wasn’t it? And they appeared in my childhood, and they were a big part of my childhood, those pictures, particularly the one of him and the co-pilot and so on, in the cockpit and all of them and we looked at them a lot. But that Cecil Beaton’s “Air of Glory” was a book we we looked at you know that was our father, and I think my mother must have encouraged us to look at that to be honest and to be proud of him. My mother and I went to the Coronation, we got tickets, my grandfather won a ballot for some tickets to the to sit in The Mall at the Coronation, and my mother and I went and she said, “Nobody would have medals like your father”. It wasn’t true I’m sure [laughs] you know she was, and that was still hanging round even then, um I’ve lost track.
DE: So you had a copy of a book of his photographs.
FG: And then it came to me by various routes, I mean I didn’t twig that he was sitting in the co-pilot’s seat and the and somebody else was sitting in the pilot’s seat and he’d been moved out of the pilot’s seat, I didn’t twig at all I just saw my dad. And then gradually over the years, I don’t know how, but it came to me that he had been moved out of the pilot’s seat and been replaced by this junior person, whom I later discovered was called Fisher, and I did get really upset about it, and am still upset about it I think because my father never ever said a word about it. I liked looking at those other photographs of him getting on the air you know, waiting to leave and so on, and I hadn’t really got a clue about what was involved. It was just this sort of black and white romantic pictures almost you know from the war, because he was still watching “The Dambusters” and things like that even after. [laughs] It gradually came to me, and not from my father, and I never discussed it with my father, that he’d been quote “demoted” and I was always very curious about the name of the man in the pilot’s seat. So he and my mother had been very friendly with this woman WAAF officer called Brenda Bolton, she wasn’t Brenda Bolton then she was Brenda Forbes, and she had been serving with my mother at the time the photograph was taken, and after they both died, my parents, I wrote to her and said can you tell me anything about this. And she wrote back and said yes, his name was Fisher I think it was Freddie, and we were all shocked and surprised by this demotion. So I tried to get the Imperial War Museum to tell me anything they knew about the way these photographs were taken, how Cecil Beaton had chosen who was to go where and so on, and asked them to please to if they were going to put some names on to name the people properly. And they seemed to miss what I was trying to tell them, which was that he my father was the pilot and was sitting in the co-pilot’s place, and that the somebody called the captain was not my father, and this man was probably not a captain I don’t know, and they and I tried to explain to them. And they told me they’d understood and he was going to be properly labelled when the pictures came up in a recent in a relatively recent exhibition, and when I got there [laughs] and there was this picture of this man apparently called Fisher labelled what flight officer, what would his rank then?
DE: I can’t remember.
FG: The Donaldson anyway and it wasn’t Donaldson anyway and it was very strange seeing somebody you were so proud of being completely mislabelled. [laughs] And then also at the at North West, the Imperial War Museum North West, where they put on an exhibition about the Lancaster they had this huge really big picture as you walked in of a version of this photograph and they’d completely cut my father out. [laughs] He was not there at all, there was just Fisher sitting there staring at me from the ceiling I was. [laughs]
DE: Oh dear.
FG: Wasn’t it sad. I’d driven all the way over from one side of the country from here [unclear]. But it’s the details that you get from the films about the Lancaster, how they pissed on the wheel before they got in, you know and after you never got anything like that, you never got anything about what it was like, or how cold it was, you know he never said anything about that at all. And I don’t, I haven’t really thought through why not, I don’t know why not, why he would never talk to me, he didn’t talk to anybody about it I don’t think, was it fear or if they did start talking it would never stop, or it was the old RAF thing that you mustn’t I mean tell people the facts as it were.
DE: So when did you begin to really sort of start researching about your father’s time in the RAF?
FG: Well I hadn’t really researched it, well I did that I mean, that wasn’t really research that was just trying to put the record straight. I hadn’t really researched it in any detail then, I mean a friend did a search on rural books and came up with references to his later war. He did talk a bit, I mean going back to that the operation research that I did, he did say that, and I never really paid enough attention probably because of those photographs actually, to his later war record and he did say they were using those techniques that sort of operational research, I mean not exactly what I was doing I was doing optimisation, but for flying formations and so on, they were using what they called operational research techniques in the war for the, in the for in the latter period of the war.
DE: I see.
FG: But the only time you’d get to talk to him ‘cos I was looking at that and I saw FIDO.
DE: The log book?
FG: Sorry yes the log book, and I saw FIDO and I said, “What’s that? What does FIDO stand for?”, and he told me, I don’t know now.
DE: Er its fog something dispersal isn’t it?
FG: Yes. Um Google it up or what.
DE: [laughs].
FG: [Unclear]. He did tell me that and he once said he’d been the thirty something person [?] to fly to to North America when he went on earlier in the war, and he went to collect Hudsons from the United States, he landed in Canada and I think flew home from Ohio via Iceland because they couldn’t fly back. And things like, I would ask him things like, how many, what was the maximum number of nights he went on, every night, I’d said that you know fact.
DE: Yes.
FG: And he told me five, I think it was, which is quite a lot. [laughs]
DE: Yes.
FG: And then I asked him about what was the longest flight you did and that was the trip to Gdansk which I think was eleven hours.
DE: But nothing then to do with feelings or emotions or?
FG: He would comment on other people’s, occasionally I can recall him commenting on other people’s failings but not in any critical way, it was people who had just cracked up or. And I think I do remember him saying that awful phrase “lack of moral fibre” he really hated that, and it was something that he abhorred, I remember.
DE: Right. So what would he comment, he said he heard about somebody else that had cracked up what sort of things would he say?
FG: I can’t remember.
DE: Did your mother talk about the war any more often than your father?
FG: Probably not. I remember once I made a big mistake, I’d come here to stay with my daughter and that was probably, what’s the anniversary of the Armed Forces Day, so Sunday they had services in the cathedral I think it’s Armed Forces Day. Anyway they had a service in the summer and I went and stood outside and I get really wound up about men in bowler hats with umbrellas pretending their still in the armed forces, and I really get [laughs], and I started to take the piss out of them a bit, and my mother went absolutely mad, and actually that did it bring it home to me she said, ‘You just don’t know what it was like you have no idea how awful it was’. And the way she said it, and it really shut me up forever on that you know, taking the piss out of something like that, it was, it was quite interesting that.
DE: She was in the WAAF wasn’t she?
FG: Yes.
DE: What was her role?
FG: Mmm, god I forgot she pushed you know she was a —
DE: A plotter.
FG: A plotter, yes she was a plotter, yes.
DE: What are your thoughts about how Bomber Command has been remembered over the?
FG: Well here again I’ve been really influenced by him you know, he never got upset about it, about them not being recognised. I mean everything I heard about that I heard from elsewhere never from him, he never got upset about it so I didn’t really get upset if you see what I mean. And then I saw criticisms of you know, and also all my friends you know were always talking, well colleagues, were talking about Dresden and the damage the bombing did and so on and I absorbed a lot of that. And you know there was no medal, there was no, and we never talked about the huge casualties either there were casualties. And when you read these stories that your, you know, I’m transcribing now, the matter of fact way in which they talk about death and people being killed, and people being lost and so on. And my father did that occasionally, that you know ex went missing or something, and the the coolness in which they talk about it, I find it in many of these documents, and in the kind of things he said, and so all that went on in a way. There was never, he never, he never said that bombing was a bad thing and he always said people often said to him, ‘Did you bomb Dresden?’ And his prompt and instance reaction was, ‘No but I would have done if I’d been asked to.’ Bang that’s it. So I think when the Piccadilly Memorial was went up I was I was very keen to see it, and I found it emotional, I and in a sense I was pleased that it was there, it was time it was there. But I had a very, very strong feeling about them not being recognised, and I realised it was almost entirely political and not to do with the sacrifices they made and what they went through, and even as I say even when that one went up I wasn’t, I was pleased that something had at last been recognised and put in such a very important place. And I liked the figures, I found them, am not sure, I will see how time progresses, how I like them in the future I don’t know, I’m not too keen on the surround it’s a bit, I don’t know anyway. I did like the figures they were, they really stirred me, but only again that’s me and him, and me and my childhood and all that kind of thing so not really about Bomber Command. When the spire went up yes that, then things changed a bit, I think now I do feel that they were, and I’m reading more and you know and more aware of particularly the latter part of the war, and I feel I’ve neglected that in a sense you know because of those I was going to say damn photographs. [laughs] You know I wish I knew more about the one hundred and stuff, and I am I would be quite keen to have a greater a better look at that because of what it was about, not just the silver foil, but also the jamming, and the going out to detect the radar you know, which I’m only just beginning to learn about.
DE: The damn photographs were they just in the book or were there pictures around the house?
FG: No.
DE: Just in the book?
FG: No way, no way, no way. We all had our wings.
DE: Oh really.
FG: Oh yeah, my mother often wore them, my grandmother, I read my I read there’s one sheaf of letters which were all congratulations to him on getting his the bar[?] to his DSO, and from his mother, and from all sorts of people and that was very interesting, because I don’t think he got quite so many for the other awards but this they were all over the top about that. And my grandfather was offered, his father was offered an OBE, I think, and he turned it down because he said he wasn’t going to stand in the queue at Buckingham Palace with people like they did. And um I’m lost sorry what was I on?
DE: Um.
FG: Yes, the damn photos, yes there not the damn photos, I’m saying the reason I’m saying the damn photos is because they biased my view of the war they they somehow inhibited me from looking at other parts of it which would be much more interesting, and there not damn photos at all. [laughs] I’m just trying to explain why I didn’t know, I knew so little about the latter part of the war.
DE: Yes I think it’s very understandable I think yes.
FG: I’m very fond of those photos don’t misunderstand me. Oh yes and the wings I was talking about the wings, and my grandmother, I went and bought it, I went and bought a huge one with twenty diamonds in it which is quite interesting, and at one point I had five because they were left to me, and I wore one to somebody’s wedding when I was you know that big, and I’ve given them my each of my one children one now so I haven’t got that many now. [laughs] There quite nice brooches actually, I forget about them, there not always appropriate but I did sometimes wear them.
DE: I’ve just got a couple of other things I think which came out from talking to you before we started the interview you mentioned that your father declined to speak at your wedding could you explain that for the benefit of the tape?
FG: What are you trying to say my speech is so [laughs] awful and needs explaining?
DE: We didn’t get it on the tape.
FG: No we didn’t no. He was never, I think he would definitely agree that we was never a very good public speaker and if you listen to the recording of the BBC tape he did in 1941, a propaganda tape on a raid on Turin, while his accent is what I am sure it was then, am absolutely convinced there is overlaid to that a nervousness and a desire to enunciate words very carefully so that they come over carefully. So there’s two things there, there’s the sort of 1940’s accent, plus this nervousness and care with enunciation. And I think that nervousness went on and he never liked making public public statements and when it came to our wedding he refused to, he got his brother to make the the bride’s speech, and he also told John my husband that he shouldn’t he wasn’t to make one. And at the end my father’s brother had ended up the speech with something, some joke like nil desperandum, I’m sorry I’ve forgotten he was a blossomer[?] and not a classical scholar, and John came back with, he did make a speech, he made one statement he said ‘I am homo sapien’. No he would never, he was very nervous, he hated it.
DE: Well obviously managed to get into the aeroplane and do all the countless operations. The other thing which I’d like to expand on if we can his attitude to Germany which you mentioned earlier when you were travelling to Germany, but of course he’d visited Germany in the late thirties do you think that there is any relevance perhaps?
FG: Any relevance to?
DE: His thoughts about?
FG: Germans, Germany no I think I mean he was a straight thinker really. I the only I knew he’d been to several biking tours, one to France that may have been a different one when he went to Germany, and he took the photographs of the, he took a photograph which you can see of the German bunting, Nazi bunting if you like, which is quite shocking. His younger brother Norman does mention that David found this a bit alarming. While the war was on they did, my mother had actually been in Germany when just before the war, she had been there as sort of an exchange student and said how it was the club of all classes [?] and she stayed with somebody and this woman interestingly came to see them after the war, very long after the war and they were they never she said, ‘We didn’t start it it wasn’t our fault’ to them. Erngart [?] her name was, and they were furious, and they that they didn’t hate Germans they just found this very difficult to take, I mean it wasn’t late 1950’s/’60 and so. But they didn’t, they never expressed hatred to Germans in that sense, but this woman they were furious with her saying that it wasn’t the Germans fault that they started the war but they were furious about that. And when I started to go to work in Germany for several sabbaticals, and he was very interested I think, but there was this sudden sort of lapse. [laughs] As I left for the first time to visit Freiburg, or no I think Dresden, and he said as I walked out the door, ‘Remember they’re still the enemy.’ I walked out of the door absolutely shaken, I couldn’t understand what he was talking about, and I reminded him several years later that he’d said it and um he couldn’t remember having said it. And certainly my Germany friend she came to stay with me and when we’d been talking about Anglo German friendships relationships and so on amongst older people, she said she never noticed a thing I mean he was always completely friendly with her, and interested in her, and you know they got on very well, there was nothing at all there. And I don’t think there was with my mother either, you can’t, and I don’t think they did, but they did take a bit of time to get over it. His brother once said to me when I was going a lot he said, ‘Do you like them?’ And I said, ‘Yes’. [laughs] At one time he was very very left wing. [laughs] Have they embarrassed well you know it was very complicated business you know, you’ve got a left wing German friends whose fathers’ fought in the army, you know, it’s it’s it is quite difficult to sort of start a conversation with them because they were in the army throughout the war, and you don’t know, they tell you about what their fathers’ did, so they tell you much more about what their fathers’ said about the war much more. You know I had another German friend, and her father worked at Peenemünde and they fled to Alabama, and they lived in a sort of German enclave in Alabama, that’s another interesting story because she didn’t know anything this contemporary of mine, and they just lived in this enclave where they didn’t know anything. And when she came home, they came back, and she got some, only quite recently I think, some quite nasty shocks because she didn’t know.
DE: No very interesting. I think I’ve ticked all the things that I had jotted down to talk about and we’re approaching fifty minutes of it.
FG: Really thank you very much for listening to me.
DE: It’s been marvellous thank you. Unless there’s any other thing that’s sort of niggling in the back of your mind.
FG: No there’s a lifetime so you know, a whole lot one big niggle. [laughs] It is a lifetime.
DE: Well I shall end it there.
FG: I’d like to thank you for raising all this with me actually I mean it’s aroused my interest in it and I’m very grateful for the opportunity.
DE: We are very pleased that you’ve donated all these things to be scanned.
FG: Well I’m also doing the transcribing. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frances Grundy
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Dan Ellin
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-07
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Sound
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AGrundyAF150707
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Civilian
Second generation
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00:49:05 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Frances Grundy was born in Dorking in 1942 whilst her father was serving as a pilot with the RAF. She describes her earliest memories of growing up during and post war and the special relationship she had with her father. Her father continued his career as a solicitor in London after the war but never spoke about the operations he took part in with Bomber Command. Frances talks about her life, and the research she has carried out from her father’s days as a pilot and recounts some of the memorable items.
heirloom
memorial
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/72/Memoro 462.1.mp3
8ffb522899c95bd9dc21d8a051746b94
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BK: In unserem Wohnzimmer hängt ein solcher Spiegel [emphasises] [takes a small mirror]. Dieser Spiegel hat Geschichte. Er ist jetzt vierunsechzig Jahre alt, nein dreiundsechzig, und er stammt aus England [emphasises]. Vor dreinundsechzig Jahren war ich in England in einem Gefangenenlager. Wir hatten im ganzen Lager keinerlei Spiegel. Im Lager arbeiteten viele der Gefangenen ausserhalb und zwar auch im Schloss nebenan, in dem Englische Wachmanschaften wohnten und da passierte einen dieser Gefangenen das Missgeschick, dass ihm ein Hammer in einem grossen Kristallspiegel in dem Schloss fiel und die ganzen Scherben runterfielen und das war dann der Beginn, das Ende der spiegellosen Zeit in diesem Lager, denn ein Kumpel der unter mir wohnte, oder unter mir schlief in unserer Baracke der fünfzehn Menneken waren, der hat mir diesen zum Andenken geschenkt und da hatte ich einen Spiegel, konnte mich rasieren, damals rasierte ich mich noch, heute ist es das nicht mehr denmassen nötig wie man sieht. Und dieser Spiegel erinnert mich immer wieder dran, darum hängt er im Wohnzimmer, dass es auch anders kommen kann, dass es mir schlechter gehen kann, dass ich nicht immer so leben darf oder dass es sein kann dass es schlechter wird. Und Ich bin nämlich im Jahre ‘44 in Frankreich verwundet worden, kam in Englische Gefangenschaft nach England rüber, wurde in einem Krankenhaus in Liverpool ein halbes Jahr lang sehr gut behandelt, dadurch ist mein Bein gerettet worden, das vermutlich in den Kampfhandlungen in Deutschland sicher kurzerhand abgeschnitten worden wäre. Diese Zeit ist mir unvergesslich denn dort habe ich auch Englisch gelernt, das passierte so, das ich im Bett lag, ich war im Beckengips, konnte nicht aufstehen, gar nichts, und eine alte Zeitung, die die Schwestern dort hatten, die haben sie mir gegeben, die habe ich obwohl ich kein Wort Englisch konnte als ich in die Gefangenschaft kam habe ich einfach von vorne bis hinten durchgelesen und da ich ja nun ein Jahr in Frankreich war als Soldat, hatte ich noch ganz gute Französischkenntnisse, wenn man das mit Deutsch kombiniert dann kann man das meiste Englisch raten und das habe ich auch gemacht und auf die Weise habe ich die Sprache gelernt. Eine Schwester die borgte mir ein kleines Wörterbuch, so’n Taschenwörterbuch, weil sie nun mit Deutschen Gefangenen auch zu tun hatte und das habe ich von vorne bis hinten durchgelesen. Ich erinnere mich noch das erste Wort das ich mir aufgeschrieb in einen kleinen Heftchen das aus alten Krankenblättern von den Schwestern mit Leukoplast zusammengeheftet war, das erste Wort war [unclear] der Unterlagen. Und so habe ich mir alle Worte die mir wichtig erfielen aufgeschrieben und habe dann ganz systematisch gelernt. Die Grammatik ergibt sich automatisch wenn man oft genug liest, wenn man eine Sprache immer wieder [unclear] in einem Zusammenhang liest, dann erschließt sich auch der inhalt der Worte, der Charakter der Worte, wenn man ein Wort zwanzig Mal geraten hat dann weiß man ungefähr was es bedeutet und nun lagen neben mir zig andere Gefangene in einem Lager, in einem Raum waren es mal fünfzig Gefangene oder fünfzig Pazienten, im anderen waren es nur zweiundzwanzig, und die fragten mich dann [part missing in the original file] 1945 nachdem ich also schon zwei Monate mich mit dem, mit der Sprache beschäftigt hatte, ‘ja was liest du denn da eigentlich’, dann habe ich den gesagt, ‘was jetzt alles in der Welt passiert’, dann must du uns da mal was vorlesen, dann habe ich jeden Tag eine Zeitungs [unclear] ein und hatte das große Glück das kein Lehrer mir über die Schulter schaute und gefragt hatte ist es richtig oder ist es falsch. Und auf die Weise habe ich denen jeden Tag, wir waren ja alle gespannt, wie geht der Krieg weiter, ist er bald zu Ende undsoweiter, wir hatten ja keinerlei Nachrichten von Zuhause. Unsere Familie die wusste auch zuerst gar nicht wo wir sind, wir waren als vermisst gemeldet und erst als ich zurückkam, ja, anderthalb Jahre später nach Deutschland aus der Gefangenschaft da habe ich überhaupt erst alles erfahren was alles bei uns passiert ist, dass meine Eltern zum Glück noch lebten, dass mein Bruder gefallen war und mein jüngerer Bruder lebte auch noch. Dieses Sprachenlernen das war im Krankenhaus. Als ich aus dem Krankenhaus rauskam, es war ein historischer Tag, der achte Mai ’45, kam ich in ein Lager in der Nähe von Liverpool, Marbury Hall hieß das und zwar ist das in einem Schlosspark gewesen. Dieser Schlosspark war mit Stacheldraht umgeben das waren in rollen also übereinander zehn Meter [part missing in the original file] und von Zeit zu Zeit war ein Wachturm, wo Englische Posten drauf waren und da waren insgesamt zwei Teillager mit je zweitausend, also viertausend Man drin und dieses Lager war zum grossen Teil von gesunden Gefangenen aber auch von einem kleinen Teil Verwundete. Die Gesunden, die gingen raus, wurden jeden Tag rausgeführt zur Arbeit immer in fünfer Reihen so das also zwei Mann schnell zählen konnten wie viele es sind und die haben also in Liverpool im Hafen gearbeitet, oder sie haben auf dem Lande gearbeitet, und bei Bauern gearbeitet undsoweiter. Und immer wenn sie irgend etwas fanden das man eventuell verwenden konnte, haben sie das mitgebracht und das haben wir dann, haben die Verwundeten geerbt und haben daraus sich Sachen gebastellt. Zwar hatten wir offiziell keine Werkzeuge aber das wurde nach und nach gemacht aus einem Draht. Wir hatten Feldbetten übereinander immer und da war ein Draht der so rüberging von einer Seite zur anderen, oder ein Eisenband, und das wurde rausgetrennt und daraus wurde eine Säge gemacht, da hat einer stundenlang oder tagelang mit einer Nagelfeile dieses Band bearbeitet bis eine Säge zusammenhatte. Ein anderer hat aus einem alten, einer kaputten Autofeder ein Hobeleisen gemacht. Vorher musste er natürlich erstmal Schleifsteine sich gestalten und da hat er dann zwei Steine übereinander gerieben stundenlang, tagelang, bis er zwei Schleifsteine hatte und auf denen hat er dann diese Autofeder solange geschlieffen bis er ein wunderbares Hobeleisen hatte. Aus einem Holzklotz dann das übrige Teil des Hobel zu bauen das war dann sicher kein Problem mehr. Und diese Leute die haben mir dann eben auch aus den Scherben diesen Spiegel zusammengebastellt der für mich eine bliebende Erinnerung ist. Ich habe zwar nicht dort viel gearbeitet. Vielleicht noch eine Ergänzung. Ich habe dort Buchhaltung gelernt, ich habe Stenographie gelernt denn da war unter uns Verwundeten ein Diplom Kaufmann, der dann Unterricht gehalten hat und wer Interesse hatte konnte dann dahinkommen und da habe ich also die Grundlagen der Betriebswirtschaft dort kennengelernt. Hat für mein späteres Studium hat mir das sehr geholfen. Und dann noch wurden abends auch gelegentlich Vorträge gehalten, zum Beispiel hat ein Export Kaufmann, der als Gefangener war, erzählt von seinen Reisen die er vor den Krieg in der ganzen Welt gemacht hatte oder ein Apotheker hat über Kreuter Heilverfahren was erzählt und eines Tages hat dieser Apotheker einen Bericht gemacht wurde [unclear] am schwarzen Brett das er über die Frage Bub oder Mädl, die Bestimmung des Geschlechts [unclear]. Und sonst haben wir diese Vorträge waren in einer kleinen Baracke aber dieses mal war die Baracke, reichte nicht, da war ein so grosser [unclear] das wir im Speisesaal, in einer Speisesaalbaracke diesen Vortrag hielt und er hat uns da aufgeklärt über die Methode und zwar das nach einer langeren Enthaltsamkeit werden meistens Buben geboren, und sonst eben Mädchen. Oder auch den Faust haben wir dort erlebt, das eine Gruppe Goethe’s Faust den ersten Teil gespielt hat, die haben monatelang geprobt und geübt, und sogar die Frauenrollen wurden von Gefangenen in der wunderbarer Verkleidung und so überzeugend dargestellt das das mir das die interessanteste Theateraufführung meines Lebens geblieben ist.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Burckhard Kuck
Description
An account of the resource
Burckhard Kuck (b. 1925) tells the story of a 63-year-old mirror, a present from his fellow inmates when he was detained in a prisoner of war camp in England. Emphasises how the object reminds him of the lack of mirrors in the camp and of the fact life can suddenly change for the worse. Chronicles his detention in a hospital near Liverpool: learned to speak English by reading an old newspaper with the help of a pocket dictionary; used a makeshift notebook made of discarded medical reports held together by medical tape; read the news to his fellow inmates. Narrates his relocation to Marbury Hall on 8 May 1945 and tells anecdote of camp life: inmates making tools from scrap metal; detainees lecturing on bookkeeping, shorthand, and biology; staging of Goethe’s Faust.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Date
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2012-08-17
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Peter Schulze
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00:10:12 audio recording
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Memoro#462
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Great Britain
England--Northwich
England--Liverpool
England--Cheshire
England--Lancashire
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This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
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deu
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Temporal Coverage
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1945-05-08
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
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Royalty-free permission to publish
entertainment
heirloom
home front
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/176/2339/Frost, Bob.2.jpg
4a22fb6eb58e5c781be4f1ae44654285
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/176/2339/AFrostB150707.2.mp3
84e7a270c883b3ce4d4e13c188971538
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Frost, Bob
R Frost
Identifier
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Frost, B
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-07
Description
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Four items. Two oral history interviews with Robert Frost (1383682 Royal Air Force), and two photographs. Sergeant Bob frost flew as a rear gunner with 150 Squadron from RAF Snaith. Shot down on an operation to Essen, he was helped by the Resistance and evaded through the Netherlands and France to Spain. The story of his evasion is available in video form.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Bob Frost and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GC: Right here we go. My name’s Gemma Clapton. I’m the interviewer. I’m here with Sergeant Bob Frost. We’re doing an interview for the International Bomber Command in Lincoln. How about we start with how you joined the RAF and why? Your reasoning.
BF: Well to begin the story. I am Bob Frost. I was born in Camden Town, London, 1st January 1923. I grew up there. Went to the [Lyal Stanley?] Technical School. Took German. Went to Germany before the war and saw Hermann Goering arriving at Cologne Railway Station and scuffles in the streets between Germans for the Nazi party and the few who were opposed. When I got home I told my parents that I thought there would be trouble ahead and there was. The Second World War.
At that time, around about 1937 there was recruiting going on for the air raid precautions and the Auxiliary Fire Service. I joined the Auxiliary Fire Service as a messenger boy and went through the London Blitz operating from Camden town and across Holborn and that part of London. Coming home off watch one morning around about 5 o’clock I saw a man at Mornington Crescent digging at what had been his house, his mother was buried inside. He only had his bare hands, and I thought to myself helping to put fires out is one thing but it’s not stopping them and so I went and joined the Royal Air Force. My father had been in the Royal Flying Corps in the First World War and was back in the RAF in the Second World War.
I passed for all grades of air crew but was told that pilot training I’d have to wait at least eighteen months before starting on pilot training. I thought the war would be well and truly over by then and so I took the offer of becoming an air gunner and went into the air force just immediately after my eighteenth birthday.
It took a year before I went on my gunnery course but I learned a great deal about what really happens to keep an aeroplane flying in the air force. It was a jolly good lesson. I went to Chipping Warden Operational Training Unit and was crewed up there with Bill Randle, the pilot, Scotty Brazill the navigator, Walter Dreschler, bomb aimer — Canadian, and Norman Graham — Canadian, the wireless operator. Whilst on that course we crashed an aircraft, destroyed a barn and knew from the way the crew reacted that we could instantly rely upon each other as a complete unit. It really welded us together.
We were posted to 150 Squadron, Bomber Command at a place – Snaith, near Doncaster in Yorkshire and there on our twenty second trip over Germany when we were carrying one passenger, the second pilot – Del Mounts a United States citizen who’d joined the Canadian Air Force before the United States came in to the shooting war and he was flying with us on his first op to gain experience before taking his own crew.
Going in to the target which was Essen we were hit by heavy anti-aircraft fire that put the port engine out of action. The aircraft relied on that port engine for all the hydraulics and this meant that the turrets no longer worked or anything at all but we pressed on and dropped our bomb, we only had one, a four thousand pounder cookie, on the target area and then headed straight for home. But over Belgium the starboard engine packed up at about thirteen thousand feet and we had to jump out, bail out, and came down by parachute.
I landed in a field which seemed to come up and hit me. When I’d collected myself and my parachute I hid the parachute as best I could and set off in a south-westerly direction using the Pole Star as a guide hoping to head for Gibraltar. We had worked out what you did when you were shot down, not if you were shot down but when and heading for Gibraltar seemed to be the best option available.
In the early light of the morning I came to the outskirts of a small village Kapellen by Glabbeek in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, and I crept around the outside of the village, didn’t dare enter into the centre of it and I noticed a small farmhouse and for some reason that was the place for me. I went, knocked on the door hoping that an elderly lady would answer and I would be able to run away faster than she should she not prove friendly. But the door was opened by a burly young man. He spoke Flemish. It sounded to me something like the German I had learnt at school so I answered in my schoolboy German and the door was slammed in my face. I regarded that as a good sign, knocked again and eventually I’m in the kitchen of the house and there’s grandfather, grandmother, their daughter carrying a baby in her arms and this burly young man – her husband. They took me in and looked after me.
Whilst we were having a bit of a pantomime in their kitchen that morning a woman came along knocking at the door. This was round about 6 o’clock in the morning, to buy meat because the family were also the village butchers and she had seen me skulking around and made pretence of coming to buy meat at 6 o’clock in the morning. I discovered later that she was visited by the local resistance and told if she breathed any word of what had happened she would not breathe many more breaths. She kept quiet.
I stayed with that family for about a week and I was asked if I could ride a bicycle. Yes. And then I followed somebody on a bicycle to a small town Tienen or in French Tirlemont and was taken to the house of Manny and Marcel Renards [?]. Marcel was a stockbroker in Belgium and he gave me a suit. Now he was a big fellow and I was just a young lad of nineteen and the trousers came up under my armpits and I could easily look down and see [laughs] that the suit was really meant for a larger man but it served me well did that suit and I stayed with them for a while before being taken by train to, no it wasn’t a train it was tram to Brussels and lodged at a house of [Ashil Alieu] who lived on the outskirts of Brussels near to Laeken, near the royal palace there.
And whilst there I was taken into the centre of Brussels to the flat of two ladies, both Elisabeth and one of them came back from a shopping expedition and let her shopping bag fall across the table and out of that came a passport sized photograph and lo and behold it was Del Mounts - our passenger on that last trip. I recognised the photo and said ‘yes I know that fellow’, and the look of relief on the faces of those two girls was really good to see. They had queried Del’s story, they had queried my story. I was talking German. Del pretending, they thought, to be an American. The Germans knew that aircraft were coming down and crews were making escapes and so whenever an aircraft crashed they put in dummies on the ground pretending to be out of that aircraft. They would then enter into the underground network and when they got a list of names they would give them to the Germans and the whole line would be wiped out. That happened twice to the line I came through – the Comet Line, which succeeded in helping escape eight hundred and twenty allied air crew during the course of the war but at tremendous cost in lives to themselves.
From my [pause] safe house in Brussels I was taken to another place and there we met Bill Randle, our pilot who had succeeded also in finding his way in to the Comet Line and Del Mounts came along as well and we three were then taken from Paris to St Jean de Luz down in the south west corner of France by train in the company with three other escaping airmen by a young girl, Janine de Greef who was seventeen years of age. She made that journey from Paris to the south west corner of France twenty odd times during the war. So that meant forty trips in all. A real heroine that girl.
At St Jean de Luz I was taken with the other five members to a farmhouse on the outside of St Jean and there I met again Dedee de Jongh, the Belgian girl who had started the Comet Line going. She had been training as a nurse before the war. The war came she was doing her bit looking after the men who had not been able to escape at the time of Dunkirk. And they found that the cost of maintaining these men, because they had to buy all their rations and things on the black market, was prohibitive and they really needed to clear these men back to the United Kingdom and so they took a three Scottish highlanders down to the south west corner, got them over the Pyrenees through Spain, Gibraltar and back to England and that began the opening of the line to bring men back to this country.
From my position in Paris when Janine took us down to the southwest corner we travelled by train and the train was stopped at a frontier and we were taken into a hall, had to produce our identity papers which I had been provided with. I was now a Belgian seaman who had been stationed at Bordeaux and had travelled up to Brussels to his mother who lived there was elderly and not very well. Now I was now going back to re-join my ship down at Bordeaux so I had a reason for travelling. Had anybody examined the address on my papers the street existed but the number did not, so nobody would have had an unwelcome knock on their door from the German authorities seeking to know where this seaman Robert Seamoness [?] as I was known, had gone. They protected people from unnecessary adventure without any harm to anybody. They were a very thoughtful and well-arranged lot.
When I got to the Pyrenees I was taken with the six of us who had travelled from Paris over the Pyrenees by Florentino Goicoechea[?], a Spanish Basque smuggler. He was a professional smuggler and he guided men over the mountains to safe haven as we would thought in Spain. Whilst going over he led the group, Dedee de Jongh brought up the rear, I was the last of the six men and during the crossing I fell into a great pit, knocked all the wind out of me. Dedee saw what had happened and called Florentino back and he lifted me out of that pit like a drowned rat and dumped me on the ground at the side and all was well.
From time to time he would stop by a bush and bring out a bottle of Cognac which was passed around and how he knew one bush in all those hundreds I don’t know but he always found the right one. When we got to the other side of the frontier to cross the river Bidasoa we found that the river was in flood and we had to walk for another five hours to a bridge crossing in order to get on to the Spanish side. Climbing up towards the steep slopes on either side of that bridge there I was stopped looking at a little hut which had the Spanish Guard Seville members inside and one was outside smoking a cigarette. And I lay against the ground looking up at him in the darkness below thinking, ‘For goodness sake hurry up and finish your cigarette. I want to get to the other side.’ Well, eventually he moved off and I moved over and then we were greeted by a car with CD plates on the back and taken to St Sebastian and at that point Dedee left us and returned back to carry on her dangerous work through Belgium, France and up to the frontier. Florentino, he’d gone off and was then ready to bring the next group of airmen across.
In Spain we were taken to the British embassy in Madrid. It was the old Victorian building and the stables had been used there in the days of horse drawn traffic and that became the dormitory for we, the escapers, and there were quite a number of Poles there including the one who was in our group Teddy Frankowski. He wanted to get back to England and we thought he wanted to resume the fight against the enemy. It wasn’t really that. Back on station he had a motorbike and he didn’t want them to sell it before he returned. He thought a lot of that motorbike.
At Gibraltar we were housed quite comfortably but water was the great shortage. The lack of pure water was the great thing there and we were issued with soap. It would float in seawater and when you tried to wash with it was like using a piece of pumice stone. It scraped you clean.
But we were debriefed at Gib and then after almost a week there told to be ready to take off in an American Dakota of the United States 8th Army Air Corps and we were flown back to the United Kingdom. We flew right out over the Bay of Biscay to avoid the land and any fighter aircraft and landed at Portreath in Cornwall exactly five weeks and four days after taking off from Snaith in Yorkshire.
Nobody knew anything about us at all. We asked could we please have an overcoat because by now it was approaching Christmas time and it was jolly cold and we were provided with the proper air force winter uniform, given £5 which was a huge sum of money and a railway warrant up to London.
Bill went to his family. I went to see my mother who was working for the London Fire Brigade at that time at Shaftsbury Avenue and I walked into the place where she worked, she was a cook and said, ‘Hello mum,’ and we both stood and hugged each other. She hadn’t received anything other than the telegram saying that I was missing. She had called my father who was stationed at Chivenor in North Devon and they had both gone up to visit my brother David who was evacuated not far from Doncaster and then they went across to the squadron to see if there was any news of what had happened to me but there wasn’t any because I hadn’t been picked up by the Red Cross or anybody else. The shock of that telegram caused my father to become ill and he was admitted to Sheffield Military Hospital suffering phlebitis in his legs and unfortunately was not passed as medically fit for service anymore and was discharged from the air force. I’ve always regarded my father as one of the casualties of war.
I went back to where the squadron had, was or so I thought but when I got there I found it was no longer in this country. It was at [?] in North Africa. No, I didn’t want to go to North Africa thank you very much and so I was sent back to London and sent to RAF.
[pause]
And I was sent to RAF Uxbridge as a holding unit, I was put into a barrack room with a number of other aircrew NCOs of all aircrew trades and in the morning ordered on parade on the barrack square and was being marched up and down with these lads who I discovered had been sent to Uxbridge for court martial as lacking in moral fibre. They thought because I was wearing an air gunner’s brevet that I was one sent there for court martial. So I left the parade ground. A warrant officer standing on the side bellowed at me to get back on parade and I told him in two words what to do.
And then went to see the adjutant and explained to him that I had not returned back to this country in order to be marched about on his parade ground. He was most surprised and that evening I went home with an open leave pass in my pocket whilst they decided what on earth they were going to do with me. And the upshot of all that I was posted to the RAF Marine School at Coswall [?] in Scotland teaching the marine side of the air force what to do with such weaponry as they carried and tactics against enemy aircraft attacking them because a lot of them were engaged on air sea rescue in the North Sea and the best advice that could be given and the skippers of those north sea ASR boats agreed, was to leave the 303 machine guns wrapped up in oiled casings and not try firing them off against a Junkers 88 equipped with twenty millimetre canon. The best thing they could do was to shut down the engine, leave no wake and hope that the aircraft would start running out of fuel and leave them alone.
They did a jolly good job those chaps but I wanted to go back into the air force but not bombing this time but to go back supplying munitions to the underground movement and I succeeded in being posted to an operational training unit which would have led me on to 644 squadron flying Halifaxes, dropping supplies and also glider towing troops across the channel. But the air force stepped in and said no you’re not allowed back on ops anymore and none of our crew ever went back on operations again because if, we assumed we should come down again and were caught questions might be asked of us as to what had happened the first time around. Whether that be the case or not I’m not too sure but I finished my time in RAF Bridgnorth in Shropshire and there in the sergeant’s mess I met a young WAAF, a hospital steward, we were married two years later and we had fifty years and six months of happiness before eventually she succumbed to motor neurone disease.
Now I live in Sandwich. A daughter looks after me. She lives nearby and the friends I made during the war we’re on to the great-grandchildren. They have become our family. And to those people working in the resistance I really do accept them as the real heroes. If we were caught it was POW. If they were caught the whole family was caught and what happened to them I hate to think, in the concentration camps.
The stories I’ve heard from their relatives and the fact that when I went back to Paris to see Robert and Germaine who’d looked after me in ’42, Robert was no longer there. He’d been arrested in ’43 – executed in ’44. Germaine, they were going to send to forced labour for them. She refused to work for them and so was put in to Ravensbruck concentration camp. She survived, became aunt to my children and lived to be ninety years of age. Then she gave her body to the local hospital. I was given her two bibles. The old and new testaments in French and those bibles are now lodged in Canterbury Cathedral where they have a French chapel and a service in French every Sunday afternoon to the memory of a very brave person. That’s my story.
This is the Observer and Air Gunners Flying Log Book. And you had to get it signed every month as being accurate. This is to certify 1383682 LAC Frost R qualified as an air gunner with effect from the 23rd of January 1942. So I became an air gunner sergeant on the 23rd of January 1942. And that was Number 8 Air Gunnery School Evanton, Scotland, north of Inverness. Results of air gunnery course - exam mark ninety percent. Remarks – well above the average and then they made a ricket of the stamping here, well above the average. Should make an excellent air gunner. J Compton, Squadron Leader. I came top of the course.
That was why when I went eventually to the Operational Training Unit at Chipping Warden they put so many pilots, so many navigators, so many wireless operators and you were all in to a big hangar - sort yourselves out into crews. There were ten pilots, ten navigators and so on you see and that is what happened. This is my 12 OTU Operational Training Unit, the different flights, circuits and landings, circuits and landings, instrument flying, circuits and landings, cross country’s and all that kind of thing. That was the gunnery school and I came down from there as I say and they asked did I want to accept a commission or apply for a commission ‘cause I came top of the course and I said no thank you. I just want to be an air gunner. That’s all I’ve joined for.
And then we go to number, that was 12 OTU. That was in Oxfordshire and I’m crewed initially there. Let’s see if I can give you this. Evanton that’s there. Now here’s 12 OTU. Now look, date, hour, aircraft type, pilot and my first pilot and we’d sorted ourselves out in this big hangar – Sergeant Lock L O C K. I look down the list and his name never comes up again. What happened?
I’m near to Oxford at this Operational Training Unit. There’s a heavy air raid on London. I asked for a twenty four hour pass to go and see if my home was still ok. Remember I’d been through the London Blitz and knew what could happen. So they said yes you’ve got twenty four hours out and back so I took off, went home, everything was alright. I came back and one of the pilots there Sergeant Randle said to me, ‘Bob would you like to fly with me?’
I said, ‘No thank you I’m flying with Ginger. Ginger Lock.’ He said, ‘Ginger Lock’s not flying with anybody anymore.’ He had taken up a Wellington aircraft and sat in the back where I should have been sat was a chappy who was going to become a wireless operator air gunner. He’d done his wireless course and he was waiting for his gunnery course and the opportunity to fly in an aeroplane was too good to be missed. Ginger flew that aeroplane and the whole crew with him, a scratch crew, down to Henley on Thames where Ginger lived and they flew down over the River Thames up the hill on the other side straight into the trees at the top and he wrote the lot off. Had I not had that twenty four hour pass? And that was my introduction to what flying was all about? You see?
So I’m now flying with Sergeant Randle. And the first trip that we did together, you can’t imagine it, detail not carried out. Landed at Llanbedr. It was a cross country exercise. Navigation for the navigator. Remember we were an Operational Training Unit and the aircraft that were flying at these Operational Training Units, these OTUs, were all aircraft that were no longer fit for operational flying. They were clapped out. And so you got more crashes from these places than anywhere else because the aircraft as I say were clapped out. And the first trip that I did with Bill we landed because the aircraft was clapped out. That meant that it wasn’t working. Come home again.
That went on there and now I’ve got Randle, Randle, Randle, Randle, Randle all the way through until we come to the 21st of June 1942. We took off at 9:30 in the evening and we were going on a cross country navigational exercise. Crashed near Whitton, Whitton is in Lincolnshire, at 1:52 in the morning. We’re bowling along, I say bowling along in the air and the engines start playing up and Bill says get ready to bail out. Walter, our front gunner, bomb aimer said he didn’t think that was a good idea. We were too near the ground. So Bill said right take up crash positions and we crashed near Whitton. We hit a barn. I’ve got a picture of it somewhere.
[pause]
And when Bomber Command Museum was opened and we met together forty odd years after the war, the day after that we went to where we had crashed to see what it looked like and that was taken there and that’s was the farmer’s son who’s now grown and has replaced his father as farmer. They weren’t owner farmers they were tenant farmers and they’d had a new barn built – a brick one. The one we crashed into was a wooden one with a thatched roof and when Norman our wireless op, I’ll show you Norman [pause]. This one here, the Canadian wireless op. Now he would be sat about the middle of the aircraft and he came out through the thatched roof swearing what do the so and so British put on their houses ‘cause we didn’t know it was a barn at the time but he found Bill Randle the pilot unconscious in the crash so he dragged Bill out. I was in the rear turret and the gun sight that was right up in front of me came back, hit me on the head, I’ve still got the scar up there somewhere and it knocked me unconscious. Only for a little while, not for hours but just for a few seconds and I’ve got my turret turned sideways so that you could open the doors and drop out the back. That was how you got out of that particular one at that time and I opened the doors and there running alongside the aeroplane is this lad. Can you see the one right at the end, at this end, that’s it you’ve got this hand on it. That fella Scotty, the navigator. He was running down the side of the burning aircraft to get me out of the turret. When I say it was that crash that brought us together we realised that we would look after each other whatever happened and that really welded us together as a crew. If anybody in the crew said turn right we all turned right. You didn’t argue. The pilot was the one in charge but if anybody in the crew saw something that needed instant action and they said stand up, sit down, jump about, do anything, you did it. You didn’t say why, you just did it because you trusted each other. Now I’m the last one alive.
GC: Well we’ve got your voice on tape now.
BF: So -
GC: It won’t ever be lost again.
BF: You see, that’s these things. Now you’ve seen Daphne.
GC: Yes we have Daphne.
BF: As a young - when a fellow had seen her with her three stripes on -
GC: Ahum.
BF: Tell me when you’re ready. I met Daphne at RAF Bridgnorth in Shropshire in the sergeant’s mess. She had just been made a sergeant. She had a boyfriend before then who was an airman and she had been a corporal but when he saw Daphne with her three stripes on he turned tail and ran. But Daphne came into the mess and two years later we got married. Best thing I ever did.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Frost. One
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Frost recounts experiencing the London Blitz as a member of the Auxiliary Fire Service. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained at the Air Gunnery School at Evanton, Scotland. He was then posted to the Operational Training Unit at RAF Chipping Warden. He describes an aircraft crash in Lincolnshire while at Chipping Warden. His operational posting was to 150 Squadron at RAF Snaith. On an operation to Essen, two of the Lancaster’s engines were damaged and the crew bailed out over Belgium. Frost describes being taken in by a farming family and sheltered by the resistance. Reunited with his crew, they were passed along the Comet Line through Belgium and France, being accompanied from Paris to St Jean de Luz by Janine de Greef. They met Dedee de Jongh who, together with a Basque smuggler, accompanied them across the Pyrenees into Spain. From Madrid they were driven to Gibraltar and flown to the United Kingdom. Bob Frost did not undertake any further operational flying. He was eventually posted to RAF Bridgnorth, where he met his wife Daphne, who was in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force.
Creator
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Gemma Clapton
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-16
Contributor
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Julie Williams
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:43:03 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFrostB150707
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England
France
Spain
England--Northamptonshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Essen
Pyrenees
Netherlands
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
12 OTU
150 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
air sea rescue
aircrew
bale out
bombing
civil defence
crash
crewing up
de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007)
evading
faith
ground personnel
heirloom
Lancaster
military ethos
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Evanton
RAF Snaith
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1278/19442/PParkerJJ1616.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1278/19442/BPilbeamAFParkerJJv10001.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1278/19442/BPilbeamAFParkerJJv10002.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parker, John Joseph
J J Parker
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer John Joseph Parker (1062881, 121671 Royal Air Force) and contains documents, heirlooms and photographs. He served as ground personnel.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ann Pilbeam and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Parker, JJ
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[two photographs]
Inscribed watch/compass
Combined watch / compass inscribed 'To F/O Parker from Ansty H.G.
[page break]
1.
[underlined] The Watch! [/underlined] April 8th 1994
Sometimes life is like a jig-saw puzzle and it is often many years before the pieces fit together.
As long as I can remember, my father has had a watch. It is on a leather strap and has a clock face surmounted by a compass face.
It is inscribed on the back/ To F/O Parker from Ansty H. G.
I always knew my father had been stationed with R.A.F. at the flying school at Ansty and that the watch had been given him when he left.
Yesterday myself, husband Rob and youngest son, John visited Coventry. I had nevr been before. I was impressed and moved by the ruins of the old cathedral merging with the glory of the new one.
We went into a visitors’ centre and watched a film on the bombing and rebuilding of Coventry. I learnt things I never knew. 500lb of bombs in German planes brought over on the night of Nov. 15th 1940. A city reduced to rubble with great loss of life. The hopelessness of a situation which incredibly quickly turned into building for the future.
The next day we visited my father and he asked how we enjoyed our day and
[page break]
2.
and what we thought of the cathedral and the new.
And then he said
“I WAS THERE”
There is so much about his war experiences that we know nothing of. This was to be one of them – now to be told 54 years after the event.
He was stationed at Ansty (we saw the sign yesterday). He was there in November 1940 – a month before I was born.
On the evening of Nov. 15th Coventry’s ordeal began. Father said the bombing lasted from dusk until dawn and Coventry lit up the sky.
At dawn, about 2,000 men, including my father, were taken in Coventry. Amidst the smoking rubble they helped to bring out those alive and the dead. Often the search was slow and impeded by those grieving when members of their family were young dead. Sometimes when working on a house or in a garden a fire would suddenly start up again and flames would shoot up.
Many families began to collect their few belongings and make their way out of the city to sleep on the road sides. They had cardboard or wooden boards to sleep on. But also were many people travelling into the city from other places, anxious for news of family and friends.
My father said they worked for
[page break]
3.
days, eating and drinking on site until the search for people was over and dangerous rubble had been cleared.
[underlined] P.S. [/underlined] I took the watch to Judith Miller from the Antiques Road Show (2015) and she was fascinated by the story. She could and would not put a value on it – just priceless she said!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Inscribed watch/compass
Description
An account of the resource
Combined watch / compass inscribed 'To F/O Parker from Ansty H.G. and a note written by John Joseph Parker's daughter.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Format
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Watch/compass
Language
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eng
Type
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Physical object
Identifier
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PParkerJJ1616, PParkerJJ1617
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1994-04-08
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Coventry
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-11-14
1940-11-15
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
bombing
heirloom
RAF Ansty
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Translated from the original in German: Present are Mr Heinrich H. and Mrs Martha H. (mother) and Lothar S. (eight years old) and state:
We were having dinner on the first floor of our temporary accommodation, the three of us and our daughter, Anna S., née H. Then the alarm sounded. We therefore went with our suitcases to the cellar. We were the first ones there. Over a period of time, the others appeared. In the meantime, we had run up the stairs again and fetched two more suitcases. By then, all the others had also come down, Miss Schaumberg, Mrs Schmidt, Mrs Ahrens, the Brunner family without their daughter, with a six-year old boy. They have also gone missing, just as my daughter. The air raid warden Döring was not present. After about half an hour, we could not bear it any more in our cellar because of the smoke. Our rear building had been hit by many bombs. It was really thick smoke.
We went through the breakthroughs, Königstraße downward towards Moltkestraße but we only got as far as no. 81. We couldn’t go any further and had to turn back and we got out at 79. There was a gateway where we got out. In that cellar were about 25 people including women with small children. Three of us went out when we heard our daughter shouting for help. Everything was burning, all the doors, we couldn’t do anything and we couldn’t turn back. We ran down on pavement on the right side. My daughter had trouble with her heart and was probably also frightened to run through the fire. Maybe she turned back to the cellar where the people still were. Whether she ran out again, we can’t say. We went on. Where Weber’s cheese shop was, we had to stop because there was an air twirl. We had to get our breath back. From the army ordnance depot [at 93] people were shouting to come over to them. That’s where we went. But it became unbearable there too because of the heat and the smoke and then we went to the other side, in the garden of the former Jewish temple. There we spent the night, in the fire trenches.
In no. 81 too were many women with small children. They were sitting on mattresses.
Mother and brother had searched for jewellery and rings among the personal effects salvaged by the police. They found two rings of the missing person – the wedding band and an aquamarine – which had been salvaged from 1 Moltkestraße. Well, the mother said, she must have run after us from the house and I heard her on the street shouting for help for a long while. The woman was probably frightened by the flying sparks and ran into another house. There she perished. Also her golden watch with 5 diamonds, a family heirloom, has been found, partly charred. Two diamonds could still be recognised, the gold casing is in parts completely oxidised and so charred that the clockwork is visible.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Heinrich H , Martha H's account of the events at lower Königsstraße 77.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-03-15
Contributor
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Harry Ziegler
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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Record 34
BKasselVdObmv10034
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Title
A name given to the resource
Heinrich H, Martha H and Lothar S
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
fear
heirloom
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1110/26177/BRhodesG-KPayneAv1.2.pdf
d5a02c511d29c08f78d3593481d03102
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunders, Roy and Honor
Roy Saunders
R Saunders
Honor Saunders
H Saunders
Description
An account of the resource
158 items. Oral history interviews with Roy Saunders (b. 1930) and Honor Saunders (b. 1931) and six albums of family photographs. Both experienced the London Blitz. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1638 ">Foreshaw and Carter Photos</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1639 ">Foreshaw Family</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1640">Roy and Honor Saunders</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1641">Saunders Family</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1642">Thorpe and Diver Family</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1643">Thorpe Family</a><br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy and Honor Saunders and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Saunders, R-H
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
1 of 10
[underlined] Grace and Ken Rhodes – War history [/underlined]
I am sure you have obtained lots of information from Grandma Saunders, who lived through the war.
You specifically asked about my Mum and Dad’s part in the war. I can give you small snapshots of what happened but, as I am sure you have found out, in the years following the war it was never discussed and one never asked questions. Indeed for me at school in the 1950’s and 60’s our history lessons stopped around 1900. What I did discover was mainly as a result of something on the TV (when there were programmes, often comedies, such as ‘allo ‘allo and ‘Dads Army’) which provoked some comment. I was also old enough to be present when friends of my parents who owned a record shop came to visit. The owner had worked in the development of radar and associated technology during the war with its application to ships etc. He and my Dad would sit exchanging stories with his wife, Mum and I sitting quietly trying to take it all in. So often I would have liked to ask questions but I felt this was not the time or place to do so. I guess this was a part of their lives I had no idea about. In retrospect I am not sure how much my Dad told my Mum.
Firstly the outline of their war. Dates and some information about this comes from their rather brief war records which I obtained this year.
Dad enlisted in September 1940 into REME (Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers), where he trained as an electrician and was posted to Croyden [sic] where he was promoted to Lance Corporal. On 4.11.41 he embarked to go abroad (to India) then on 30.12.1941 he embarked for ‘M/E’ which I think was Singapore to defend Singapore from the expected attack from the sea by the Japanese. Within weeks of his arrival the Japanese attacked but through the jungle trapping all the troops (from several countries) on the spit of land where Singapore was built. The Commander surrendered and all, the military and the civilians were taken prisoner. In the records it states “Missing in Malaya 15.2.1942” Then it says “Prisoner of war in Jap Hands” but no date (see later)
Dad’s unit was moved to work on the notorious Burma Railway but he ended up working in the hospital and cookhouse. In practice the hospital had no drugs or any way to treat ill and injured men. No anaesthetics, antibiotics or any medicines. No medical or dental equipment. The cookhouse had minimal supplies of basic foods and all had to survive on so little that malnourishment was rife.
[page break]
2 of 10
The next part says “Released by Allied Forces, 12.9.1945” There are no more formal entries and as far as I know the prisoners were brought back to the UK by sea in ‘hospital’ ships to allow time for the doctors to treat the many diseases and injuries they had. Your Grandma remembers him coming home in August of 1946 so he was nearly 11 months coming back. At that time he still only weighed 7 stone.
Like many of those he had suffered from Yellow fever, Jaundice and Malaria (which reoccurred several times up until the 1980’s), had extensive leg ulcers and suffered with his teeth. He was lucky, many did not come home. The conditions in the camp also caused subtle but lasting damage to his heart.
Mum enlisted in October 1941. As a woman with no dependents, she decided to enlist rather go into the Ammunition factories or away as Land Girl. Why the Royal Airforce I don’t know but whilst she was in the recruitment office a Naval Officer came in and asked if the Airforce could supply them with drivers (why? Mum always said it was because the WREN’s would not lower themselves to drive as they were the senior service!) When her turn came to register she asked if she could become a driver? They agreed and at the end of the war she ended up able to drive heavy lorries as well as cars. I don’t know were [sic] she trained but in June 1942 she was posted to Charmy Down near Bath, Somerset (about a mile from where Stephen went to University). Not only did drivers take officers and the pilots where they needed to go, they would collect and deliver items and stores etc. In addition in poor/foggy weather they would help the planes to land by lining up along the runway with headlights on to guide them in. She then transferred to RAF Colerne August 1943, another fighter command base. In August 1944 she was transferred to Broadwell, in Oxfordshire, (near RAF Brize Norton). She was discharged in October 1945.
At some point she was being transferred abroad but just before they went the authorities stopped it because they could not get her husband’s permission for her to go abroad. This in spite of them making her Dad, Grandpa Foreshaw, her legal ‘next of kin’ when Dad went abroad. I don’t think that would happen today! I think Mum was happiest at Charmy Down, she always spoke of that base not the others.
Mum made several friends in the billets. Many of the ladies were from european [sic] countries invaded by the Germans. Her best friend and fellow driver who I met on many occasions until she died in the 1990’s, was ‘Aunt Nell’, a lady from Holland who worked in London as the Head Housekeeper in a couple of big London Hotels. But there were many others and I have some
[page break]
3 of 10
photos. I have no idea of who they all were. In the records it says her conduct etc was excellent, though I remember Dad commenting that she was nearly court marshalled! She was seen handing cigarettes to some Italian PoW’s in a camp next door to the base. The Commander asked her why and she said she hoped someone was doing it for Dad (she knew he was a PoW by then) and he just said “Never do it again, OUT” and she heard no more. Mum was about 10 years older than the majority of pilots and was more of a mother figure. I think she felt it greatly when many did not come back after sorties. The picture of a small wooden spitfire (attached) was carved for her by a pilot in 1945, possibly to commemorate VE day in May that year. It was always part of my upbringing and I have kept it. I also have her Autograph book with some signatures, poems, messages and even a cartoon! But it is not easy to read or copy.
She did comment to me how she did not appreciate how hard it was for the civilians to live on their rations. Although supplies were limited in the services, they did not go badly short of anything. She realised after the war that, when she went home on leave to her parents (as Mum and Dads house had been requisitioned to house a bombed out family), she ate probably the whole families butter ration etc in those few days, as well as other things!
Note:- Now this is where dates just do not match up as she was still in service when Dad arrived back in the UK as she was granted emergency leave to go home to him. That needs to be sorted. However that is not important here for you.
Some stories.
Dad did not hate the Japanese. In spite of everything he never condemned them. He did say that officers often treated their own soldiers nearly as badly as the prisoners. He spoke of a cultural difference where the Japanese could not accept surrender so the allies were ‘cowards’ for surrendering at Singapore. Indeed he said that when they were liberated his relief was tempered by the fact that the one Japanese officer, who had done his best to treat the prisoners well, had committed ‘Hara-kiri’ a form of ritual suicide (by the upper class Japanese). He was also sad when he went back to Burma in the 1980’s, the tourists split cleanly into Japanese and British and Commonwealth groups each side of the room and there was little sign of forgiveness.
All the men suffered from ulcers, mainly on the legs. They would go to the fence round the camp and entice the local village dogs in to lick the ulcer with their rough tongues. This cleaned them and stopped infection.
[page break]
4 of 10
However ‘Cleanliness’ could be fatal! There was a Dutch POW camp nearby which was wiped out in three weeks by dysentery. The men washed their tin plates in the river and it was contaminated water. The British wiped them ‘clean’ by eating every last thing and not washing them.
A local Burmese man (village leader??) tried to help the prisoners, bringing such things as herbs, bits of food, anything which might be of use. Dad did know his name and his actions were part of a TV programmed [sic] at one time. But I cannot remember his name or any more. We forget that the Japanese treated the locals in just as bad way.
The then Bishop of Singapore, Leonard Wilson, was captured and went at one point with the POW’s. Mum said that he had confirmed Dad whilst in the camp. I can remember him, as the now Bishop of Birmingham, always leading the Remembrance Service at the Albert Hall on the TV in the 60’s. I now realise why he took the service.
For one Christmas, the cookhouse tried to produce something that roughly resembled a Christmas Pudding! Dad would not say what they put in it! idea good, execution not so good!
The Japanese took anything of value from the POW’s and carried out regular searches. However Dad kept his wedding ring safe all those years. I will leave it to you to work out how!
I fear other stories tell of the worst side of human nature. However looking back I think thinking of home and his family kept Dad going and helped him to survive after the war (research has since shown that married men were more likely to survive).
After the war:
When Mum and Dad were able to get back into their own house after the war, they found it very difficult as rationing was even more severe then than during the war. They were not part of that local community which helped each other and spread any surplices amongst themselves. For example, all Dad wanted was a bottle of beer and the shop said he could not have one. Then the boss said “Bring me a bottle, any bottle, empty, dirty and I can let you have a bottle of Beer” Indeed Mum sent Dad out to do the weekly shopping as he was so thin, with yellow skin and scars, that the shop keepers took pity on him.
[page break]
5 of 10
I hope this gives you some more information. I regret that I know no more. It is now lost for ever.
Annette
[underlined] Photos [/underlined]
First postcard sent by Ken Rhodes as a POW.
[photograph of the front of a postcard]
[inserted] Arrived [indecipherable words and date] [/inserted]
[ink stamp]
MRS. E.K. RHODES.
1, ABERDEEN ROAD,
DOLLIS HILL,
LONDON. N.W.10.
ENGLAND.
[photograph of the reverse of the postcard]
[underlined] RHODES. E.K. 7642018 L/CPL. [/underlined]
[indecipherable date]
MY DARLING,
I AM A PRISIONER [sic] OF WAR. AM FIT AND WELL. DON’T WORRY. HOPE YOU ARE ALL WELL. GIVE MY LOVE TO ALL AT HOME. TED CLIVE AND ALL ARE STILL WITH US. NO NEWS OF YOU SINCE LEAVING HOME. GIVE JAMES MY LOVE. AM BEING TREATED VERY WELL TONS OF LOVE TO ALL. LOVE KEN
This was one of the first cards that came back about the PoW’s. It was delivered by several army officers and government officials who wanted to confirm that it was not a forgery. I don’t know if they went to Mum’s airfield or she went home but they wanted to know if there was anything in the message that might confirm it was genuine and from Dad. There is, the comment ‘Give James my love” proved it. James was the cat! The card was addressed to Grandpa Foreshaw’s house as this was Mum’s address at the time. Note that the details of the date had been partially erased. You may also note the comment about ‘being treated well’.
[page break]
6 of 10
[photograph of a Souvenir Order of Service, headed “Your Finest Hour 1939 – 1945” by Winston Churchill]
This is the front of an [sic] Souvenir order of Service called your ‘Farewell Service’. It contains words and and [sic] pictures of both Military and Political figures and a short service which I assume servicemen could attend. It was published two weeks after VJ day in August 1945. I know little about it and need to do more research. (Interestingly there is a copy on sale in the USA for 300 dollars!)
[colour photograph of a wooden model of a Spitfire]
This is the Spitfire that I spoke of earlier. Starting to show its age after 75 years. The inscription is on the base. Note Mum’s initials are where the identifying numbers would usually be.
[page break]
[colour photograph of the tail of the model Spitfire]
[colour photograph of the base of the model Spitfire with the inscription “R BROADWEL 1945 MAY V. YEAR”]
[page break]
8 of 10
This is a copy of the letter sent to all who were held as POW’s by the Japanese
[colour photograph of a letter from King George]
[Buckingham Palace crest]
The Queen and I bid you a very warm welcome home.
Through all the great trials and suffering which you have undergone at the hands of the Japanese, you and your comrades have been constantly in our thoughts. We know from the accounts we have already received how heavy those sufferings have been. We know also that these have been endured by you with the highest courage.
We mourn with you the deaths of so many of your gallant comrades.
With all our hearts, we hope that your return from captivity will bring you and your families a full measure of happiness, which you may long enjoy together.
[signature of King George VI]
September 1945.
[inserted] Dec 1945 [/inserted]
[page break]
9 of 10
In looking for the photos I have found one of Uncle Wally in uniform serving in the First WW.
He was your Great Grandmothers brother in law, married to Alice.
[black and white photograph of man in uniform sitting in a chair]
[page break]
10 of 10
Here are the photos of my Mum and Dad in uniform at the start of the war.
[black and white photograph of Ken Rhodes in uniform]
[black and white photograph of Grace Rhodes in uniform]
Compiled by Annette Payne (Ne. Rhodes), daughter of Grace and Ken.
August 2016
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grace and Ken Rhodes - War History
Description
An account of the resource
A description of their time during the war by their daughter. Her father joined the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers in September 1940. He was captured by the Japanese in Singapore, 1942. He was released on 12 September 1945 and came home on a hospital ship.
Her mother enlisted in the RAF in October 1941 and became a driver.
Included are some of her father's stories of his time as a prisoner.
There is his first postcard home as a prisoner, a photo of 'Your Finest Hour', photos of the Spitfire model given to her mother, a copy of a letter sent to prisoners of war held by the Japanese, from the King, a photo of Uncle Wally in Army uniform and photos of her father and mother at the start of the war.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annette Payne
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
10 typed sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Text. Personal research
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BRhodesG-KPayneAv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
British Army
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Croydon
Singapore
Burma
England--Bath
England--Colerne
Malaysia
England--Somerset
England--Wiltshire
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
ground personnel
heirloom
prisoner of war
RAF Brize Norton
Spitfire
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10080/MToombsG1590211-150806-04.2.jpg
c13fd92331d87ab0e0c711e7f399152c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
George Toombs' memorabilia
Description
An account of the resource
George Toombs’ collection of memorabilia, including dog tags, flight engineer's brevet, sergeants stripes, Royal Air Force cap badge, one b/w photo of George Toombs in cadet uniform and a signed piece of parachute silk dated 1945.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
George Toombs
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
photograph of eight objects
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Physical object
Physical object. Clothing
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MToombsG1590211-150806-04
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
aircrew
heirloom