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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/126/20/ACarterRH150629.1.mp3
8d3dc3e95f435d5e1448963ba9a2e5f5
Dublin Core
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Title
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Carter, Robert Haywood
Bob Carter
Robert Carter
Robert Haywood Carter
Robert H Carter
R H Carter
R Carter
Description
An account of the resource
16 items. The collection contains an oral interview covering childhood and wartime experiences of Robert Haywood "Bob" Carter who was a farm labourer and auxiliary fireman during the war living close to RAF Dunholme Lodge. Documents including identity cards and clothing ration books for Robert Carter and Eva A Haire as well as a victory message from the King and prisoner of war camp money vouchers; newspaper article about an airman reunited with his wife after being a prisoner of war, Photographs of home guard and auxiliary fire service personnel in Welton and Dunholme.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bob Carter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-29
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Carter, RH
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Before the interview commences there is some preliminary chatter; not transcribed]
DE: Right. So, this is an interview with Bob Carter. My name is Dan Ellin. This is for the Bomber Command Digital Archive and we’re actually at Lincoln University. So Bob could you tell me a little bit about your childhood for a start please?
RC: Well I was, actually, I was born at Scampton, just on the Tillbridge Lane in a farm cottage there. But I don’t remember it because in those days seventy percent of village workers, men, worked, um, on the farm. A few came in to work in the factories in Lincoln but it was so labour intensive in those days on the farm and horses of course and um, so the men moved around mostly, very often for another sixpence a week. They’d moved to another place. And this is what happened I think in my life. I was born at Scampton there and we went then to Ingleby which is near Saxilby. I do just remember a little thing happening there actually with, our neighbour had geese and I found a goose egg and I thought I was doing a good thing and was taking this goose egg in to this woman and she sort of screamed at me when she saw me. I didn’t know that the goose, the geese, were actually sitting on these eggs to produce young ones [laughs], others and I dropped the thing because I was trying to shut this big farm gate with one hand and I suppose I’d only be about three years old. Anyway, we moved from there to Scothern. And then Scothern we moved to Welton. And I was five. In that time I was only five and done all those moves and I started school at Welton when I was five years old. So I was there. And then at twelve of course, at twelve years old the war started. And do you want me just to carry on?
DE: Yeah, yeah definitely, yeah.
RC: That was to us kids I suppose which would be wrong we would be all excited because this war was going to start until we, it grew on us that it was something more serious. But they were starting to rebuild Scampton at the time. I think it was about 1936 or somewhere there. Scampton was being rebuilt so we got used to seeing a bit of activity up there. But as, as the war went on then Dunholme Lodge, all these other airfields in Lincolnshire, Dunholme Lodge was made. And I’d, I’d left school, and went to, at fourteen I left school and went to work at Scothern Dairies for the harvest time of that year ‘cause I left at the Easter and then I moved to a, a farm halfway up Welton Cliff Road. Their name was Carter but no relation to me and then he asked me to go to his son’s at Faldingworth and he said he wants a tractor driver and so I went to, from Welton I used to cycle every day to Faldingworth and driving this tractor. And of course I wasn’t old enough to do that really but Jack the boss, he used to give me, if I had to come to Welton to borrow one of their machines, rolls and different things, he used to give me his trilby to wear so the policemen might think it was him on the, on the tractor. It never, it never dawned on me that’s why he was doing it at the time but as the years went by I realised and I never got stopped anyway.
So, but I had a year to - before I went there I was working on the farm up on Welton Cliff there and of course it’s horses was the main thing. In those days farms were known by how many horses. It would be a six horse farm or a ten horse farm or that sort of thing. Tractors were just coming in. They had a couple of tractors but I had to work and when the potatoes were being lifted I had to drive the carts up and down the fields to the pickers and I was only of course about fifteen then. And I had to yoke these horses out in a morning and some of them were quite tall and one, a mare, she was very awkward because when she saw me coming with her collar she would hold her head right high up and there was me trying to reach her so I thought, “Oh I’ll beat you to that. I’ll get in the manger at the front and then I’ll be able to reach.” So I threw this collar into the manger and I clambered in to it, into the manger, and yes, it did happen, as you might be thinking, yes, the mare backed off away from me and I couldn’t reach her then. But it only happened once and I never forgot that incident but I used to have six to do in the morning, six horses to yoke up and get them to the fields up as far as Scampton to the A15 there. His land went all that way and I was involved in that, then I got helping the shepherd in the winter time with some sheep out on a turnip field in all weathers. We just had to get these turnips up and cut up and feed, feed the sheep and um, eventually I had a chance to go to Dunholme Lodge Farm to White’s Dunholme Lodge Farm.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And I, so I moved employment and went to Dunholme Lodge Farm. I stayed there right on, right through the wartime. So and in this time they’d bought, they made the land at Dunholme Lodge into an airfield. And I lived on the road from Welton to Scampton so looking out our, our front room we looked straight up the runway of Dunholme Lodge. You could see, in the far distance you could see Lincoln Cathedral.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And all that and so we were seeing things first hand really and the, all the administration offices were all on the outskirts of the farm, on Dunholme Lodge Farm, so we saw quite a lot going on there in the daytime.
DE: Do you know how the farmer felt about losing some of his land to the airfield?
RC: No ‘cause it happened when I went there so I don’t know. I was, I was thinking about that only the other day. They must have took about half of his land.
DE: Ahum.
RC: That he had. When I think what he had was down towards Dunholme and then we got the land back after the war. But they must have taken half of his land. Yeah.
DE: So you’re saying you were living at the end of the runway there. Can you, any, any stories you can, you can tell?
RC: Yes. We, we were supplied with a metal table in, in our kitchen because we were within, I think it was eight hundred yards of the perimeter of Dunholme Lodge. So we were allowed to have a better shelter, bomb shelter.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Which was very handy until you’d knock your knees against it [laughs]. Being steel it didn’t give up, give way at all. But eventually they asked if we would give it up. They wanted to send them to London because London was getting all the bombing and so we did give it up eventually and went back to a wooden table.
But when they were taking off northwards they were coming almost straight for our house we were the last house up that road at the time. Today there’s quite a lot of houses gone beyond it now
DE: Ahum
RC: All at the back there as well. It was all fields and they were so low we used to wave to the pilot and the co-pilot, the flight engineer as they went past they were so low. We could see them.
And my mother used to take in, we had a spare bedroom. Eventually my mother used to take in the airman’s wives that had came to see their husband for a weekend or week or something like that. And she said, “I won’t take flyers in case anything happened“ but she eventually did and she took this couple in actually. Young couple, hadn’t been married long and they were from Ipswich and he was, he was in 44 squadron which was a Rhodesian squadron and the 44 was stationed there at one time and he was in - their lettering was KM and he was in S. S for Sugar. And she the, the briefing room used to be down near what is known now as William Farr School. Down there their briefing office and so she used to walk with him around with him there when he went for his briefing in the afternoon and then they’d be away at night. And I was in the local fire service and I had to do every fifth night. I had to do duty and one night I was going home next morning at 6 o’clock, had to get ready and go to work on the farm and I was watching them coming in and of course they were quite low. They were going, they were landing north to south in the morning and I saw KMB go past.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Quite plain to see because they were very low so you couldn’t miss it. Anyway when I got around the back the back of our house going in the back door Kath was looking out the bedroom window, his wife and I said, “Has he come in yet?” She said, “He’s just gone in.” and I said, “No that was B. That wasn’t S”. She said, “No it was S.” so I thought well I’m not arguing. I had a good plain view of it, broad view of it and so I left it at that.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Off I went to work at the farm. Then during the morning I had reason to go around into our barn at Dunholme Lodge for something and just over the fence was all the administration offices of the RAF and such like and I saw this officer with this woman. Be about, getting on for a hundred yards away from me I think and I thought oh that does look like Kath. Anyway we’d finished work at 12 o’clock on a Saturday so I went home 12 o’clock and I knew as soon as I walked in our back door there was something was wrong I thought. So I said to my mother what’s wrong. She said, “Frank’s hasn’t come back”. I said oh. She said, “No they’ve been and picked her up.” I said, “Oh I knew that was her.” I said I saw her from the farmyard. I said I thought that looks like Kath and they’d been and collected her and she stayed with us a little while after that and then we found out he’d been taken prisoner
And eventually it was getting, this was getting on late in the war of course and they escaped and got home again but they, they escaped into, into Russian lines ‘cause they came down to see us then after he’d got home again and they said they’d escaped into the Russian lines and that was worse than being with the Germans. They nearly got shot with the Russians, convincing them who they were. And one newspaper had it, the headline - Home By Way of Odessa - and that was the way they’d come home and he told us, he said, he didn’t tell us they were attacking Stuttgart. I never, as we were talking after ‘cause they came up and had a holiday with us and he said he doesn’t know if he was thrown out, blown out or how he got out of his aircraft all he remembered was landing in this street in Stuttgart and the SS women bent over him, questioned him, getting to know where he was from all the rest of it before he came to his senses and all the rest of it and they would never let on and when he was a prisoner of war he was in solitary confinement because he just wouldn’t talk and they used to bring him out every morning the Germans did in the office, into the office and quiz him and said to him one morning, “Ah Sergeant Walters. Now then, let’s see, Scampton wasn’t it?” and he thought wow you’re only two fields away but he said I never would let on where he was and Dunholme Lodge was only a couple of fields from Scampton anyway and he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t tell them where he was from.
But they came and had this holiday with us and I had the good fortune ‘cause I went - going back to the farm.
DE: Ahum
RC: You couldn’t change jobs other than farm. Well you could if you wanted to go in to the army. If you went, if you left the farm you got automatically got called up in to the army.
DE: Ahum.
RC: But I think it was about 1947 when that was lifted and I couldn’t wait to get off to try and get a job with a bit better wage to it. And I started truck driving.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And that really was the basis of my working life through was on the trucks so I used to get down to Ipswich when Fysons had a factory here in Lincoln and we used to take stuff from there to Fysons in Ipswich and I used to call and see Kath and Franl and stop the night with them sometime if I wasn’t going to get home again. Stopped the night with them.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And he’d got, he was in to civvy street then of course and he was making himself a motorbike and sidecar in his shed. Building this all up and everything and then he contacted us one week and he said, “You’ll never guess.” So we said, “What?” He’d got this thing done but he couldn’t get it out his shed. He had to take the side of his shed off or something to get the thing out of his, out of his shed yeah. But yes I haven’t heard from them for years. I don’t suppose they’re alive. They were older than me so.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I suppose they’ve passed on now. Yeah.
DE: But you struck up a friendship while they were living with you and carried on.
RC: Oh yes. Yes, we, we, they used to come. We used to go down to the Nelson at Dunholme. They liked that seemed to like that pub and we used to go down there with them and yes. So, well I think at the time she was only about eighteen but I have a newspaper, the Daily Mirror, from that time and they are on the front page, Kath and Frank are, and the Mirror paid for them a weekend in London and it was saying about how he’d been a prisoner of war and such like and they paid for the to have the weekend in London for them both, bought her an outfit and top seat in a, in a theatre. Top seat - seventeen and sixpence. That was the price of a top seat in those days. Yeah they gave them weekend out and then they came up to see us and we couldn’t believe it. My sister, a younger sister of mine went to our door that morning and picked up the paper – the Mirror.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And she’s looking at it walking back up the hallway and said, “That’s Frank and Kath,” and blimey we are famous yeah.
DE: Smashing. You say you were in a, in a bit of a hurry to get out of farm work as soon as you could. Was, was -
RC: Well the wages weren’t good.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: The wages weren’t good and there was better, the war was over and so there were better opportunities about plus there was no fear of getting pulled in to the army or something like that.
DE: Ahum.
RC: If, if, if you left. You could leave the farm but they’d have you for your fitness and what not straightaway and have you in in no time. Or I think it was coalmines as well where they were, they didn’t have to enlist without they were called up. So, yes so I travelled the length and the breadth of this country and it came in handy for some people. People started to go more around the country for their holidays and people, see they didn’t have cars. In my younger days there, there was only two people in Welton had cars. Nobody else had a car.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: But people got their own cars and people very often would come to me, hey Bob how do you get to so and so wherever they were going holidaying and I was often having people coming on a Friday or something and say oh tomorrow we’re going to - where’s the best way to go sort of thing.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And this was of course before motorways. Even the A1 was only just an ordinary road. It wasn’t even a dual carriageway.
DE: Yeah.
RC: Dual carriageways became a new thing to have dual carriageways before motorways and such like.
DE: So who would be the two people in the village that had a car then?
RC: There was a shop. Well they had a van. Well they had a van. It’s now the co-op at Welton. It was some people called Applewhite.
DE: Ahum.
RC: They had, they had a van and the people who had a car - the post office did. I think, can’t remember what they did? I think another family did have a car I suppose he was business of some sort. But our job when we left school used to be, “Don’t run off you lads. I want a push with my car” and that used to be and we’d push him from the school was, it’s flats now I think almost on Welton Green and that was the only school there was in Welton. Just this one building. So I did all my education there and the woman who had the post office at Welton, her name was Crosby but she eventually married George Howton [?] who were our teacher and it was him that wanted a push with his car and we’d push him right down as far as Hackthorn Lane before the thing struck up and he daren’t stop it again so he just left us all to walk back. We tried to get out of school quick before he mentioned this big word, “Don’t go away lads,” you know. Oh dear. Here we go again. Yeah. Good old days.
DE: Marvellous.
RC: Yeah.
DE: So you, you were showing us earlier some photographs which you’ve kindly let us scan for the archive. There’s one with some people in the Home Guard and one with, with Auxiliary Firemen. Can you tell us a little about those pictures?
RC: Yes well like I was showing you the photographs of dad’s armies as it’s called, the Home Guard were called. My dad was a corporal and our next door neighbour was also a corporal and then there were others. And there was one officer. Oh the village blacksmith he was a sergeant. But we were doing, it would be for November memorial I should think. There was this parade on at Welton and the Home Guard from around about, from Dunholme and all those places I think they came as well but my dad and Harry Lawrence next door they were going to be guard of honour at the cenotaph at Welton and they were the only two with rifles anyway. And so Harry being smaller, a bit smaller than my dad came around ‘cause he lived next door to us and he was concerned that they would get it together when they sloped arms and presented arms you see and my dad said to him, my dad had been in the army when he was younger and he said, “Don’t worry I’ll count to you”. He said, “I’ll say one two three one two three without anybody really hearing,” he said so they’d got this all worked out. So they thought they’d give it a try in our kitchen. So they stood there side by side and my dad said, “One two three one two three,” and they went to slope arms, of course they had to do it all properly. They had to have, they had to have the old bayonets fixed as well. The old type bayonets. I don’t know, about thirteen inches long, and Harry stuck his straight through our kitchen window - ceiling. And as the, as the thing came on television what not - Dad’s Army I think about that occasion. I thought, oh so funny. They needn’t have to have the bayonet fixed on. It didn’t matter at that time. But they had to everything proper yeah. Oh, so funny that was.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah.
DE: The other photo you had was the Auxiliary Fire Service.
RC: Yes the fire service. We were, we had two of the places at the, down in the backstreet. One for the pump and the other for the, for the room where we, well the beds in it and the table, what not where we - I joined the fire service there. You had to be the Home Guard or something. It wasn’t everybody had a fire service in the village. We had one so I joined the fire service.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And we went out to one or two crashes and what not. We went out on to Dunholme Lodge when it was being, apparently they were laying the runway at the time but of course there wasn’t much light to be going on and there was an Irishman there, I think it was an Irishman and I think he’d been the night watchman or something over all the goings on there but something had caught fire and the fire engine had, oh it was the RAF the RAF had got one there that’s right. And they’d used foam on this fire and -
DE: Ahum.
RC: We got there and this chap was right panicking. He’d lost his watch. His pocket watch and of course you’d got blobs of foam about and he was trying to find tis pocket watch. Well I thought he wasn’t bothered about the fire or anything it was his watch he was looking for. Yeah. He didn’t find it while I was there anyway. He lost his, why they put foam. Water would have done but yeah there was quite a few Dads Army type of things happened then when you look back. No wonder they made a programme of it really. It was silly things did happen yeah.
DE: So how did being an auxiliary fireman fit in with, with working on the farm?
RC: It had to fit in. That’s it. We used to be on every fifth night from 10 o’clock till six in the morning. Then you’d got to go to work. If, you know like if there’d been a red warning and you’d stayed you couldn’t go to bed but it was alright you could go to bed if there was no red warning.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And we were attached to Charles Warner’s had a garage at the top Wragby Road, top of Lindum Hill, Wragby Road area and we were attached to them and we were supposed to let them know if we were turning out. I think really we were supposed to wait until they said we could go but we found out if we did that we’d never go. They’d never let us go. They’d say oh we’ll go first if they need two pumps we’ll call you out. So when we did have to turn out we’d wait while they’d gone then we’d ring Lincoln and tell them it was urgent and we’d turned else we’d never have got out.
RC: We went to Hull one night.
DE: Really?
RC: The old way when you had to go around Gainsborough and around
DE: Oh of course, yeah. Yeah.
RC: Oh I tell you what. That night, that was frightening. Really frightening. Terrible experience, that, I mean. It really took a pounding Hull did. And not knowing the place as well.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And it sounds silly really but one of the, well he was our boss really of the crew I was with [?] he said, “Have a look down there and see if you can see a hydrant”. Well a hydrant in those days I think they’re on the floor now. There used to be a yellow plate on the wall and you knew that the hydrant then was four feet from that. And the silly thing was that the ships that was in the dock and all the the dock warehouses were blazing away and we couldn’t get near. All that water and we couldn’t get near it cause the ships were burning anyway and so he said see if there’s a hydrant around there and I’m looking for this for the plates on the wall or something and I just – “there aint one around here” and then a voice in the dark, a voice in the dark alleyway said, “Isn’t there one around here”, and I looked - it made me jump at first and there was this, a woman’s voice and it was this young, I don’t know how old she’d be - eighteen or nineteen nearly about my age and she said, “Our house has been hit” and I said well, “you didn’t ought to be here. There’s a police station down there”, I told her where the police station was. I said go there.
Anyway, when I went, I’m looking around and realised that our crowd had gone.
DE: Ahum
RC: And I thought now where has everybody gone? Here I am. I don’t know where I am. I don’t know the place at all and just down the road was a fire station so I went down and I said that I was with Welton I said and they said oh they’ve gone down to a wood yard down, I forget the road now to me it didn’t mean a thing and he said alright you can stay here and take messages. I thought -charming. I don’t even know the place and I’ve got to go to other pumps and I didn’t have to go with any luckily enough and after about an hour our pump turned up. They came back from this wood yard and so and we came home.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And like I say when you got home you still had to go to work.
DE: Ahum.
RC: You know. That’s how it was in those days. Yeah.
DE: Yeah so what so what so what sort of pump did you have and how many people?
RC: Foster Gwynne, Foster Gwynne pump. Made in Lincoln. They was mainly Coventry Climax pumps and we used to have competitions sometimes and they would, they would seize up sometimes some of these Coventry Climaxes would and they’d overheat and our Foster Gwynne’s would be whooping it out - two channels sixty pound pressure. Brilliant little pump it was. It was made in Lincoln that was.
DE: Ahum
RC: And I often wonder who finished up getting that. And most of the pumps the Coventry Climaxes they were painted grey or red. Ours was its original chrome and everything and that’s why we used to go around on a Saturday afternoon polishing it. We were proud of our little pump.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And they couldn’t do anything about it but they were a bit jealous of it I think some of the bigger fire stations that we had this little pump. Yes we used to have some good fun with that. Yeah.
DE: And how many people were you? Were you, were -
RC: It was a five man pump that was.
DE: Right.
RC: Yeah. It was. I had to take, it was my job to take the first roll of hose and you’d stand there with your arm out while the number two came and grab it as it came past, connect it then I had to at the back of the pump get the third hose, length of hose.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And the, and the hand pump and run off down with that.
DE: And what sort of vehicle pulled the thing?
RC: Oh a Daimler. I don’t know whose it had been but obviously it had taken over by the government obviously. Yeah we had this Daimler. Lovely car
DE: Ahum
RC: By jove it was. Yeah we had that at Welton yeah, yeah.
DE: How did, how did you feel being in the fire service then?
RC: Pardon?
DE: How did you feel being in the fire service?
RC: Well, we, we felt one up on the Home Guard anyway. At least we were one point higher than them. Not a lot was said on that line really I suppose. Its age wise you know. I was lucky that I enquired there and they said yeah we need another. We need another one in ours to make our numbers up for the pump and you see they needed at least well needed about thirty all together. They needed twenty five for the pump people and then there was always somebody would have to stay on the phone if you turned out.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And that’s how we got by and like I was saying before we, we in the fire service we got paid for it. I can’t remember what it was but we used to get it monthly. But it was, especially if you worked on the farm it was very nice. It was, I can’t remember now probably a fiver if that much but it was always appreciated.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And then there was a parade or something come along so we were having a bit of a practice at marching in the back street of Walton. Always having a bit of little laugh between us about it and then we did an about turn and there was two of the officers from Lincoln [laughs]. They halted us when we got to them. They tore us a strip off and said you’ll be better than them at Buckingham palace by the time they finished with us so we were put through our paces a bit but I think there was some big parade going to be in the village and we was going to turn out as well, we had to have to turn out as well with them yeah.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah there was some good times on it yeah.
DE: Did you get much training?
RC: No, no you didn’t. There really wasn’t too much training. One thing you had to do you had to be able to carry from off the first floor with a ladder up to the first, up to the second floor. You had to be able to carry an eleven stone person up on his back down this and I remember I did it.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And I was only about eighteen but you know I worked on the farm throwing sacks of corn about and you were used to, you know and if the person you’re carrying just stays limp and doesn’t try and do it for you sort of thing.
DE: Ahum.
RC: It wasn’t too bad. And we were talking about the rectory had a big place like that where we were, a flat roof and so we was able to do it from that yeah. And he had some nice pear trees in that rectory as well. They were very nice. So sometimes if the red warning was on, we couldn’t go to bed so we used to walk around and have a pear.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah.
DE: Can you explain red warning for us?
RC: Well that’s when there’s a raid on sort of thing and the night that Lincoln Nurses’ Home got hit that was one Sunday teatime.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I was at home at about half past five. We heard this explosion even at, even at Welton and we came out and stood outside our back door which was Hackthorn side sort of thing and to anybody listening it was Hackthorn out our back door, out that way but we heard this German and looked up and it was just broken cloud up above but I did just see it.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Go from cloud to cloud sort of thing but they did get it down over Grimsby. But the, the Kirton Lindsey was fighters and oh five minutes more after that there was the spitfires err Hurricanes going towards Lincoln from Kirton Lindsey way and you felt so helpless. You felt like saying, “Oi they’ve gone that way,” and anyway he was shot down near Grimsby. Yeah. I remember that happening. We didn’t know while later on that it was near the Nurse’s Home where the bomb went off but there was, it was obvious that Ruston’s, they, I mean the Germans knew about Ruston’s and that’s why but they used to say that lord Haw-haw used to come on and break into English radio, Lord Haw-haw and he, for Germany and he said one night we shall not bomb Lincoln Cathedral because our pilots know the way to Sheffield when they get to Lincoln Cathedral. I remember that happening yeah. He’d break into the, I think it was the 9 o’clock news on the radio.
DE: Ahum
RC: Not every night but it made people put the radio in case he did, hear what he had to say. Yeah. Lord Haw-haw yeah.
DE: Did you ever witness any aeroplane crashes then when you were in the fire service?
RC: The one, that one on, on at Scothern on a Saturday afternoon. There was a Lancaster at, oh three parts of the way up that cliff road Welton Cliff Road toward Scampton, a Lancaster and I think he must have run out of fuel. No fire or anything and he was just on top of a hedge in a way, just run into a hedge. Another, another half a mile he’d have been at Scampton sort of thing but I think they must, but they took it to bits and took it away again.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah that was about the only actual fires that we, we, we saw in our time yeah.
DE: You were talking earlier about another? Another crash that you’d attended?
[pause]
Where there was another crew as well, another fire crew as well.
RC: Oh that was when the, the RAF crew.
DE: Ahum.
RC: That was the one at Scothern.
DE: Right you talked.
RC: If we’d known where they were from Welton they said Dunholme but in those days it was Dunholme Lodge was the thing that stuck in your mind.
DE: Ahum.
RC: But Dunholme village wasn’t that way at all. If we’d known it was actually, it would look like Dunholme cause Scothern from that angle was beyond Dunholme.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And if that woman had said, you know it looked like Dunholme. Dunholme was there and Dunholme Lodge was over on the right. We would have been straight there, we’d have been there by the time we were going to Dunholme Lodge and finding them still gawping there down the road at all the smoke.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: We’d have been, we’d have been there but we couldn’t have done anything.
DE: Ahum
RC: The biggest pieces was the wheels.
DE: Really?
RC: There was just nothing left of it. It hit the high cables.
DE: Ahum.
RC: It hit the yeah hit the high cables and it just blew it to pieces. I don’t think there was a bomb on board and been blown to pieces that way. It might have had but I didn’t hear exactly. I know it had hit the cables.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah and they were all killed on it yeah.
DE: Talking about some, some probably happier times did you, talking about seeing certain, certain people?
RC: Oh yeah, yeah well at the Black Bull at Welton was the nearest pub for them just out of Scampton and I was at the green one, near the green, Black Bull area one night and this car pulled up and these two young RAF fellows got out and a dog with them and off they went in to the Black Bull for a drink. And then this, this raid took place down to the dams.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And it became more, it was all in the news quite a while every day about this busting the dams and dambusters and all this, that and the other and Gibson’s photograph became more prominent in the papers and then one day I’m looking at the paper and I looked at this, this photo and I thought I don’t believe this and it was Gibson and another man. Looking at him this was one of the photos of the fellows I’d seen that day outside the Black Bull.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And the dog would have been N*****. I mean it fussed around me and I thought nothing of it at the time. I mean I liked dogs and thought of nothing but you know I can do it, I in my own mind I can say I was stood near him but it’s only as he’s became more popular, his picture was always in the paper it suddenly struck me I thought he was one of them blokes.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah. And then they was on about when his dog got run over. His, his his batman was also his truck driver he got fourteen day [unclear] for that.
DE: Did he?
RC: Yeah. We used to get, we used to know this from some of the lads, ordinary lads that used to come into the Black Bull used to play darts with or whatever, football or something used to play football with us yeah and they said it was outside. One airman, and I thought he said one of the airmen he’d been to when he was getting his crews together and he’d been to the middle another airfield forgotten the name of it just south of Lincoln anyway but he was I was just been reading a book the other day and it said outside Scampton main gates.
DE: Ahum
RC: And I thought these blokes had told me at the time it was outside this other camp main gates that he was getting his crews together ready for this raid but he said he got two weeks [unclear] for letting the dog get out the - and that was another thing, they used to have open days at Scampton and Hemswell.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And some of the lads would say, “Are you coming on Saturday Bob?” and I’d say, “Oh yeah of course and I said yeah see N*****’s grave” and they said, “You won’t. This year you’ve got to go a different way.” ‘Cause I knew Scampton, I saw it built and everything and used to go past it a lot and they were saying, they said to , “You know last year when you went this way, that way,” and I said, “Yeah.”, “Oh you’re not doing that this year you’ve got to inside the main gates and you’ve got to go left,” and they was telling me where and I knew where they meant you see and I said oh we shan’t go past N*****’s grave then and they said, “You will. We’ve moved it”. And all they’d done was pull the cross up and put it somewhere else and then there was a bit back in the Echo I was reading they was on about where was N***** buried and I thought I bet nobody really knows - this is between me and you – I thought nobody really knows where that dog was buried. They just used to move the jolly cross to suit them. Yeah
DE: Have to get Time Team to
RC: Yeah.
DE: To come up.
RC: Oh dear yeah but yes those were good days out they were yeah ‘cause they, when they first opened I was, I used to be errand boy for a local butcher at Welton before I left school. Used to go before school in the morning, after school at night and all day on a Saturday and me and there was the butcher and he had the man that worked for him Ken [unclear]
DE: Ahum.
RC: And Ken used to do Scampton and Hemswell married quarters. There was eleven officers houses at Hemswell and err Scothern err Scampton.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And thirty four ordinary house and Hemswell was just the same they had thirty four and we used to ‘cause you see rationing was on so you had to be joined with a butcher somewhere.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And we used to do them on a Saturday morning and another lad who worked for them for a bit he used to go with the boss himself and he used to do Welton and Dunholme. They used to come back for dinner and then after dinner the boss and Ken who I’d been with they used to go to Snarford and Foldingworth and out that way on the butchers round with the joint sort of thing, the rations and that sort of thing and me and the other lad used to stop and used to scrub the shop and the slaughterhouse.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Cause they used to slaughter a lot of their own animals themselves there and I used to get six shillings a week for that and then when I was leaving school he wanted me to go full time. Oh and we used to have my meals there as well on a Saturday but he wanted me to go there full time and, and have my meals at home - for eight shillings. And I was getting, and my dad said you get a pound on a farm and that’s how I come to really go on a farm. That’s all they used to pay you for that. There wasn’t a joint of meat I didn’t know. I used to make stones of sausages and they were renowned for their sausage at Welton, their sausage. I can say their name now cause they’re not alive now – Applewhite. He was renowned for his sausages. His Lincolnshire sausages. I made stones of the things before I went to school in the morning.
And then there was one morning I got an order he wanted me to take to the farmer at Dunholme - a Mr Lilley and so off I went on my bike. This was before I went to school and there’s me going down down there and while I’m going down there Ryland towards Dunholme and there was a Hampden cause this was before Lancaster.
DE: Yeah.
RC: And I thought what’s he doing just going around and around like that. And then I saw a parachute come out of it and I thought wow a chap’s jumped out of that and I eventually got to Lilley’s down at Dunholme and they used to, nobody locked the doors, they just used to shout come in and I knocked on the door and come in and I went in and there was an airman sat there.
DE: Ahum.
RC: With his hand wrapped up and it wasn’t him that I’d seen jump out the aircraft but he had jumped out of it. And he’d landed in the hedge of this farmhouse and he’d hurt his thumb.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And what had, what had happened was that the Hampden couldn’t get it’s wheels down but they jumped out and then he got his wheels down and he landed safely at Scampto. Yeah but the crew had all, but the pilot, had jumped out and he was, what he was doing as well he was using fuel up as well and then he would belly land it somewhere. That was the plan.
DE: Ahum.
RC: But then his wheels came down so he went to Scampton and landed yeah but the chap sat in the house waiting for the ambulance to come and whoever was going to come like to him and I think he’d broke his thumb or something yeah. So you saw a bit of life at times.
DE: Going back to the dams raid from Scampton.
RC: Ahum.
DE: The first time I met you, you told me a story about seeing them take off.
RC: Oh yeah. Yeah we had a like we’ve had lately a lovely, lovely day you know the weather had been absolutely perfect and me and the lad next door to us George Lawrence I bumped into him only a couple of weeks ago in Gainsborough market and we remarked about this story which I’m about to tell you. So we stood there talking away and suddenly we heard the familiar noise of these Lancasters and we looked towards Scampton and there’s these three Lancasters flying ever so low and weren’t attempting to gain height at all. They were just, and we were almost speechless seeing them so low and they went by and George said to me, “Look they’re sending them barrels of beer now.” and I said, “Yeah.” and off they went to over between Welton and Hackthorn and ever so low not trying to get any higher. Course then when we heard the news and as time went on we found it was a low level job all the way anyway and we realised that what we’d seen were the bombs, the different type of bombs that they’d got on yeah. But we never, we never saw any more take off that night from Scampton although there was more went but I don’t know. I don’t know which way those three had took off because the way they were coming there wasn’t a runway facing that way so they must have took off somewhere, circled around and then got the height they wanted to be and that was it and off they went. Yeah. Saw that quite clear, yeah.
DE: Well that’s smashing. I think I’ve well I’m almost running out of questions. What do you, what are your feelings about the way bomber command has been remembered over the last seventy years?
RC: Oh I think it’s very good I, I I’ve got loads of books on it and there’s, there’s, there was three books came out about, with all the crashes that happened, where they’d flown from, where they’d been going to. I can’t remember the name of them. Have you seen them?
DE: I think so, yeah.
RC: But we later on in life we lived in Lincoln and we had a bed and breakfast place and we had these books and sort of things out.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Not to be taken away. Then we suddenly find that I think its number three book was missing. We must have had somebody staying with us saw something in it that rung a bell with them, with, about someone they knew probably and they must have took it home.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And they’re out of print now. They’re out of print. I couldn’t get another one.
DE: Oh dear.
RC: I went to Ruddocks and they said oh they’re out of print now. So I’ve got the other two which, you know and I often get them out. I think oh yeah I remember that one. They’d ring a bell with me but yes cause it was sad about that because any of those Lancaster books I have to refrain myself a bit now ‘cause the bookshelves tend to get rather full you know but yeah I love reading about them.
DE: Yeah.
DE: Yeah so these books did you manage to go through them and find crashes that you knew about?
RC: Yeah, yeah two like I say two of them, the other one someone took it home anyway with them and if you notice at the time you could say something you know, have you pick a book up by the way.
DE: Yeah.
RC: So it was more sad because I couldn’t get another.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I don’t know how much they were at the time but that weren’t the point if I could have got another but no so I’ve just got the two of them. I’ve got loads of other sort as well about the Lancasters but those have got, they’ve the crew in and 44 squadron they were Rhodesian squadron actually at Dunholme Lodge. I think they came from, I think they came from up Brigg side some, not Brigg near to Cleethorpes side somewhere like that. Ludford, not Ludford but somewhere like up there I think they came.
DE: Ahum.
RC: To Dunholme Lodge oh and then after they’d left Dunholme Lodge we got, we got the Polish people. Now that was an experience that was.
DE: Really.
RC: Oh had a laugh with them at Welton we used to have. On bikes a lot of them.
DE: Yeah.
RC: And of course they didn’t, Poland didn’t ride on the same side of the road as we did but that didn’t matter to them they – dear, dear me. We, yeah, they used to be all over the road with their bikes and didn’t get involved with the local people very much. Anyway, us lads was at the fish shop one night. I mean Welton now has a good name, it’s always had a good name, Welton fish but anyway I went at the fish shop one night and this young oh and the I’ll say this the WAAFs Polish WAAFs most of them most could go on a slimming course I’ll put it that way and we were at the fish shop this night and this really smart girl WAAF came along. Polish. And she just wanted a bag of chips and there was three or four of us and I was always up for a dare and anyway so one of them said I bet you don’t speak to her when she comes out so I said I bet bet I dare so anyway out she came and I said I’ll push your bike and you eat your chips and I tried to explain to her that and she just sort of smiled and I walked with her bike and at Welton village hall used to be the that’s where Polish people were stationed when they come and Welton well not the old one, it’s a new one but it used to be used to be WAAF community meeting place where that was and we got nearly there and thought I’d better not go any further. I was about fifty, a hundred yards away from there and I sort of indicated to her that I wasn’t coming any further and so off she went and I went back and having a good laugh we was you see and anyway after that I got talking to must have been some English airmen that was there and I never saw this WAAF again you see. I never saw her again and they said she’d been moved and they said oh if they know that she’d been talking to an Englishman they’d move her to another camp ‘cause I never saw her again.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I saw some that I used to see regularly you know but that one, she was really a lovely looking lass and you know quite slim compared to what all the others were yeah and they reckoned yeah reckoned they had moved her to another camp.
DE: Crikey.
RC: Yeah so yeah but yeah some these things you suddenly remember again. You know.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Memories.
DE: The other things that you brought with you are some Italian POW.
RC: Oh yes they were, they were two Italians. We had two Italian prisoners who worked with us at Dunholme Lodge and there’s a cottage down there now it’s used as a memorial place.
DE: Ahum.
RC: For Dunholme I don’t know if you’ve been to it or not down at the bottom of the farmyard yeah and they, there was three of them. Two smallish fellas - Italians and this really biggish bloke and he only had to do two hours a day on the farm and quite honestly we could do without him. He was useless. Anyway and there would be I think they came from Kirton Lindsay there were two camps there was a German and an Italian camp there. Anyway I got to be sort of spokesman for these two lads, got to understand them a little bit and any problems they had I’d see David Whites and you know tell him. Anyway they, they were saying, and they good little workers as well they were and they were saying something about the food and they said would I ask David Whites if he could send him back to camp and they would look after themselves. So righto so when I saw the boss I said I don’t reckon they get much food I reckon. And he used to walk into Lincoln this fellow did you see at the weekend and they reckon he knew a woman in Lincoln and he was taking her food. So anyway David Whites got it done and they took him back to camp and these two lads managed on, and do you know the three months they really were like little pigs. You know they really did put some weight on Gino [?[ [unclear] and Mosello[?] [unclear]
DE: Ahum.
RC: Mosello Ovello [?] [unclear] Italy – that’s, that was his address. I used to write to him when they went back after the war and I went, as I say they stayed until the end of the war until they were repatriated. And then they have open days at Dunholme Lodge now. Their gardens. About twice a year and the spring and over the years David Whites married, he married a vet. His wife was a vet. She’s died now. But one of the Italians was so excited one day he was on about Mr Whites. And I said yeah? That’s the vet’s car. He’d seen them around one of the crew yards plenty kissy kissy he said [laughs] and eventually he did marry the vet and now he’s got, he’s got two, I don’t know if he’s got a daughter but he’s got two sons and they still live up there. And I thought when had this place, remembrance place, bottom of the farm and opened up the, the farm and I thought I’ll have to have a look around there one of these times so I went one year. Well when they found out that I knew these Italian prisoners I’m the only one now alive that worked there, you see, you know.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And when they knew that I was, I knew these Italians and reeled off the address like I did you just now I said yeah I used to write to them. Oh they thought it was marvellous they did.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: And you know I’m sort of very friendly with them now and go up and look around and they always get on and say we never met anyone who knew these Italian prisoners. I said oh yeah I remember them coming, I remember them when they went I said.
DE: Ahum.
RC: So I was there until I was about twenty five or six something like that I worked there. They were nice lads and one of them wanted me to go to Italy and marry his sister or something yeah but Marcello Orvello [?] yes they were nice lads and they used to, one of them used to come to the dances at Welton and I used to say to them they’d be no bother to you if you’re no bother to them.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: I was sort of in charge of, no I wasn’t nobody bothers them. And [?] used to love it, coming to the village dance at Welton but they used to say you remember [unclear] I used to smoke then they used to bring me their full packet of cigarettes cause they, neither of them smoked then like.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And with this here other fella and it turned out actually when he was taken back to camp they said to me used to say to me the next day I wasn’t to bring any food with me, good eat with them. [unclear] they called food [unclear] you had to eat with them so I said to me mother I didn’t need a pack up.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Marcello [?] and [unclear] want me to have my dinner with them. What I’m going to get I don’t know and I went with them and they did it all over the open fire in a frying pan sort of thing. Everything went into this frying pan sort of thing and they also showed me the room he had, the other bloke had a room on the right. They was upstairs and on the back of the door was a swastika of the other fella.
DE: Ahum of the other guy, right.
RC: They got rid of. Yeah and he was a German but they were Italian so they must have been at Kirton Lindsay camp both of them.
DE: So they were living in a farm building?
RC: Yeah oh yes it’s still there now and it’s used a remembrance place now. Yeah
DE: And what sort of work were they doing on the farm?
RC: Same work yeah what we did.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah one of them used to drive one of the tractors in the end.
RC: And they had quite a bit of freedom to come and go.
DE: Oh yeah yeah they were no bother them lads weren’t no. But yes they told me their address and if ever I was in Italy. They told me around to visit. I’ve been to Italy just over in to Italy once on a holiday like but I never got around to going. Well actually [?] left me a photograph, he said it was his sister, come and marry my sister you know. And I haven’t got it. I don’t know where it went to, yeah.
RC: But there wasn’t any sort of hard feelings with them being in the village.
DE: No, no, no, no, no we had some good times together but, but the Whites were over the moon because they’d met someone who was still alive that worked on the farm and knew these Italians. Their dad used to tell them about these Italian prisoners oh yes [unclear] and [unclear]. [unclear]. I said I wrote letters there. They didn’t get there. I used to get them back. The trouble was when I got a reply I couldn’t read it and in finding somebody in Welton who could decipher it all and it was very, very difficult and I think that’s what
DE: Right.
RC: In the end we sort of drifted apart. We never, you know, so what he was actually saying in the letters. Well he did say, I got it done once, would I ask Mr Whites if he would get them back to come and work for him again
DE: Ahum
RC: Yeah they loved it there. And we got the land back from Dunholme Lodge as well while they was with us as well and had all that to plough up.
DE: Right.
RC: And had to rush around that spring and put barley down and all of it there and yeah but
DE: Right.
RC: Yeah we had some good times with them.
DE: I think that’s smashing unless there’s anything else you can think of.
RC: No.
DE: Might be of interest that’s a wonderful interview thank you very much.
RC: No it all happened in such a short time. Something happens even nowadays and it reminds you then of something, oh yeah I remember a similar thing happening in you know and I’m glad I can still, my wife wouldn’t think so like but I think my memory is pretty good. [laughs]
DE: I think so too, yeah.
RC: You’ve got to remember what you’ve got to remember when the wife’s around [laughs]. Yeah no but she would, she said if she’d come with me today she said all she would be able to say was that she lived at Metheringham and they built that aerodrome. We are going actually, probably go Saturday anyway. Never been to their to their -
DE: Oh. The Visitor Centre.
RC: The Visitor Centre. We always say we’re going but never get there. Yeah but yeah I’ve seen it all happen. Saw Scampton when it was all being built. About 1936 when they started to rebuild that and I’m told that in the First World War it was more where the showground is.
DE: I think that’s right yeah.
RC: All that way so I don’t know. I used to be, I used to play golf with the flight engineer off the Vulcans.
DE: Ahum.
RC: He’s dead now. A chap from Hykeham and he said that they used to go on these with the Americans on these bombing,
DE: Exercises.
RC: Exercises and the Vulcans used to go out tops every time like, you know. They reckoned they were brilliant aircraft. And when they come back from America when they came back from abroad with them they had to go through like you would if you were on a flight, you had to go through customs and whatnot but they used, I think he said they used to come back through Grimsby and so Waddington would tell Grimsby that they’d got aircraft coming back from you know and used to tell them time of arrival, you know and John said if we’d get up to forty thousand feet he said and you got a good back wind he said with the Vulcans he said we can knock an hour off easily. That’s what he said. From America. And he said some of the lads used to, he wasn’t a big drinker John wasn’t but he said you had to back a whisky and what not and what’s the name would come and say you’ve got a plane coming back from America something and oh they’re in, they’ve been, they’ve gone home ages. [unclear] Yeah. Them Vulcans could really move.
DE: Yeah.
RC: If they kept to forty thousand he said. Yeah
DE: Smashing that’s great thank you ever so much.
RC: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rob Carter
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Fire fighters
Description
An account of the resource
Rob Carter was born in the village of Scampton and reminisces about his life on the land before the war. He recounts the foundation of RAF Dunholme Lodge, which his house overlooked. During the war, he served in the Auxiliary Fire Service. He was called to put out the fire at an aircraft crash site near RAF Dunholme Lodge. He describes the pumps that the Auxiliary Fire Service used, Foster Gwynne and Coventry Climax. He recounts experiencing bomb attacks on Hull and Lincoln, in which the Lincoln Nurses’ Home was hit.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-29
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:06:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Identifier
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ACarterRH150629
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Hull
England--Lincoln
England--Welton (Lincolnshire)
England--Scampton
England--Yorkshire
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
crash
firefighting
home front
prisoner of war
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Kirton in Lindsey
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dirks, Heino
H Dirks
Heinrich Dirks
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Heino Dirks (b.1922), a German firefighter at Jever airbase.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-26
Identifier
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Dirks, H
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Heino Dirks
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Airplanes, Military--Accidents
Fire fighters
Germany. Luftwaffe
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Schulze
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-26
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:03:27 audio recording
Language
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deu
Identifier
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ADirksH160626
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Jever
Germany--Hamburg
France
Belgium
Germany
Russia (Federation)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln. For more information please visit https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items-not-available-online
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Heino Dirks recounts his younger life in Jever, his experience as a decorator's apprentice in Wilhelmshaven and his service as a firefighter at Jever Airbase. He recollects the crash of a 37 Squadron Wellington R3263 when on duty and his efforts to extinguish the fire. He chronicles his military life in the Luftwaffe, serving in Belgium, France and Germany until being taken prisoner by the Russians. He recollects his escape from a Russian camp together with a friend and his adventurous journey back home. He reminisces about the bombing of Hamburg, when he went to visit his sister. Herr Dirks recounts the hardships in pre and post-war Germany.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-06-06
1940-06-07
bombing
crash
firefighting
prisoner of war
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/50/404/PZuccoM1601.2.jpg
c264f2437b011e5ede53762d870c2267
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/50/404/AZuccoM160802.1.mp3
23d5a3864e818ac94f2ee948316c6abe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Zucco, Marina
Marina Zucco
M Zucco
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marina Zucco who recollects her wartime experiences in Monfalcone.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Zucco, M
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marina Zucco
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Marina Zucco recalls wartime memories in Monfalcone: how her father rented a flat conveniently located above a shelter, in which they remained for hours eating food they had brought from home; the day the ‘all clear’ sounded immediately before a second wave of bombers approached the town; a fireman holding her so tightly she could feel his metal buttons pressing on her chest. Stresses solidarity and kindness and mentions some tall and skinny German boys who came home to have something to eat. Describes a bombing she eye-witnessed and mentions her mother holding her tightly while shell splinters were falling on the roof, making an unforgettable clattering sound. Describes black-out precautions. Narrates the end of the war, when American soldiers were giving chocolate, chewing gum and cheese to children. Reports the devastating effects of bombs aimed at the shipyard, an event narrated by her sister who had sought refuge at the castle. Gives a long account of her post-war life and explains her point of view on a range of current topics including immigration and politics.
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AZuccoM160802
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Monfalcone
Italy
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Giulia Sanzone
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-02
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:11:58 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
firefighting
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/272/1130/PBubbGJ16010079.1.jpg
9ae7a29787b10eb4d63e5a6bdd408e19
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/272/1130/PBubbGJ16010079.2.pdf
619fe6c112cbaf78be7c2e7c4a56d044
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bubb, George. Album
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The album contains photographs, propaganda, service material, memorabilia and research concerning George Bubb's service with 44 Squadron at RAF Spilsby.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bubb, GJ
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Totaler Krieg
German publications - bombing in England
Description
An account of the resource
Propaganda booklet about total war containing photographs quotes and text about bombing.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
multiple page booklet mounted on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Physical object
Text
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBubbGJ16010079, PBubbGJ16010080, PBubbGJ16010081, PBubbGJ16010082, PBubbGJ16010083, PBubbGJ16010084, PBubbGJ16010085, PBubbGJ16010086, PBubbGJ16010087, PBubbGJ16010088, PBubbGJ16010089, PBubbGJ16010090, PBubbGJ16010091, PBubbGJ16010092, PBubbGJ16010093
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
England--Coventry
England--Liverpool
England--London
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Poland--Warsaw
England--Lancashire
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939-09-01
1940-05-14
1940-05-18
1941-04-25
1943-06-24
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending text-based transcription. Other languages than English
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
bombing
childhood in wartime
firefighting
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
home front
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/126/1279/PCarterRH1501.1.jpg
822a80f2e2463eee9e5c5abadcbb5ac9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/126/1279/PCarterRH1502.1.jpg
60ec0f6cb0fc6ebde5d33283a03bbbe7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carter, Robert Haywood
Bob Carter
Robert Carter
Robert Haywood Carter
Robert H Carter
R H Carter
R Carter
Description
An account of the resource
16 items. The collection contains an oral interview covering childhood and wartime experiences of Robert Haywood "Bob" Carter who was a farm labourer and auxiliary fireman during the war living close to RAF Dunholme Lodge. Documents including identity cards and clothing ration books for Robert Carter and Eva A Haire as well as a victory message from the King and prisoner of war camp money vouchers; newspaper article about an airman reunited with his wife after being a prisoner of war, Photographs of home guard and auxiliary fire service personnel in Welton and Dunholme.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bob Carter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-29
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Carter, RH
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
20 auxiliary firemen
Description
An account of the resource
Group portrait of 20 auxiliary firemen in three rows all in uniform with peaked hats. Front row of eight are sitting on chairs, second row of seven standing and back row of five standing on hidden support. Bob Carter is left hand man in back row. In the background a brick building with windows on either side of a large wooden double door. On the reverse 'Grandad Top row 1st left'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCarterRH1501, PCarterRH1502
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
civil defence
firefighting
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/126/1280/PCarterRH1503.2.jpg
8bbc4c0c329017e97e4789748e1f0d8e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/126/1280/PCarterRH1504.2.jpg
c363067b857f2bc57b5fb9ccc31d2724
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carter, Robert Haywood
Bob Carter
Robert Carter
Robert Haywood Carter
Robert H Carter
R H Carter
R Carter
Description
An account of the resource
16 items. The collection contains an oral interview covering childhood and wartime experiences of Robert Haywood "Bob" Carter who was a farm labourer and auxiliary fireman during the war living close to RAF Dunholme Lodge. Documents including identity cards and clothing ration books for Robert Carter and Eva A Haire as well as a victory message from the King and prisoner of war camp money vouchers; newspaper article about an airman reunited with his wife after being a prisoner of war, Photographs of home guard and auxiliary fire service personnel in Welton and Dunholme.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bob Carter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-29
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Carter, RH
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
17 auxiliary firemen with fire pump
Description
An account of the resource
17 auxiliary firemen standing in a group behind and to the sides of a fire pump which has large bore hoses on the front and coiled hoses on the rear. All firemen are in uniform tunic with belts and peaked hats. In the background a brick wall. Pump is a Foster Gwynne. Bob Carter is front row fourth from left. On the reverse '1943-44'.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Frisby
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943
1944
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCarterRH1503, PCarterRH1504
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
civil defence
firefighting
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/153/1614/AKohlerH170303.2.mp3
d2f0f472887d968b2df90cc90be0d7ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Köhler, Helmut
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview with Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) who recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer and the breaching of the Eder dam. His recollections cover life in German bombing cities.
The collection was cataloged by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HZ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Harry Ziegler. The interviewee is Helmut Köhler. The interviewee, the interview is taking place at Mr Köhler’s home in [omitted] Kassel on the 3 of March 2017. Also Herr Köhler, dann fangen wir mal an.
HK: Ja, also geboren wurde ich am ersten August 1928 und zwar hier in Kassel, im Rotenkreuz Krankenhaus und zwar in der Hansteinstrasse 17 haben wir gewohnt, das ist im Stadteil Wehlheiden, also nicht hier, sondern im Stadteil Wehlheiden. Und da bin ich, hab ich vier, drei Schwestern gehabt, ältere Schwestern, ich bin also nur unter Frauen gross geworden und leider ist mein Vater schon gestorben als ich knapp drei Jahre war, also 1991 ist, 1891 [?] ist schon der Vater gestorben und da war die Mutter mit vier Kindern alleine und der Vater war im Studienrat weil er einen Knieschaden hatte, desshalb ist er im Ersten Weltkrieg kein Soldat geworden, er hat also im Krieg warscheinlich einen Meniskusschaden durch Fussball haben sie gespielt und heute wär das operiert worden, aber damals konnten sie das nicht und desshalb ist er kein Soldat geworden. Und da hatt er hier in Kassel im Realgymnasium eins sein Studium, sein Abitur gemacht und hatt dann auch studiert in Marburg und zwar Geschichte als Hauptfach und hat da auch promoviert. Und a, und, er stammt also aus Gudensberg und die Vorfahren, also seine Eltern und seine Grosseltern und ich weiss nicht wie viele Generationen zurück, die hatten das Baugeschäft in Gudensberg, ein Bauunternehmen und meine Mutter, die stammt aus Rellingen bei Pinneberg in Schleswig-Holstein und die haben sich kennengelernt auf einer Hochzeit [laughs] die ein Gudensberger Freund von meinem Vater und einer Pinneberger Freundin von meiner Mutter, da waren sie beide eingeladen, haben sich kennengelernt neh und so. Na ja gut und so bin ich groß geworden praktisch ohne Vater und musste natürlich dann auch zum Gymnasium, Realgymnasium eins, das hieß damals Paul-von-Hindenburg-Schule. Und bin dann eben wie gesagt vier, fünf Jahre ganz normal zur Schule gegangen und am ersten September im ’39, Ostern bin ich dahingekommen, und im ersten September ’39 began der Krieg und da waren mit einem Schlag in einer Woche die ganzen jungen Lehrer weg und da kriegten wir die alten pensionerten Lehrer und dann waren aber zum Teil Lehrer, die mit meinem Vater zusammen an der Schule gelehrt haben [laughs], das war natürlich sehr interessant, ‚ach hier das ist der kleine Heinrich‘, neh, das war ich dann, neh. So und so sind wir dann, haben wir dann Schule gemacht war ganz normal, aber dann eben wiegesagt bis ’43 und dann wurde der Luftkrieg härter, da waren schon mehr mal Angriffe hier und dann kamen wir, als Schüler mussten wir dann Luftschutzwache machen nachts in der Schule, so fünf, sechs mit einem Lehrer zusammen, kriechten wir oben im Dachgeschoss so‘n kleines Zimmerchen mit‘em Feldbett und so haben wir den Krieg kennengelernt und in der Zeit ging dann auch in ’44, neh ’43, ging dann die Edertalsperre kaput, und das haben wir sehr gut beobachtet wie die Riesenwelle Wasser kam neh, na ja gut. [sighs] Jedenfalls, dann die Sommerferien waren rum und dann wurden wir zur Erntehilfe abkommandiert, vier Wochen mussten wir den Bauern helfen, Ernte zu machen und dann kamen wir kurz in die Schule und dann war am 22 Oktober 1943 der grosse Angriff hier. Und den habe ich in der Hansteinstrasse mitgemacht, wo ich geboren wurde. Und das war wirklich grauenhaft, also was ich da in den Keller so erlebt habe, auch die einzelnen Menschen, die da alle sassen, viel ältere Frauen und auch ein Paar Männer, ein hoher Offizier, der hier beim Generalkommando beschäftigt war der hat da immer ein bisschen beruhigt und so, also, es war schon grauenhaft, die eine Frau, die hat nur dauernd gesungen, vor lauter Anstrengung, und die andere die hat nur gebetet und so, und meine Mutter hat ganz still gesessen da, Hände gefaltet und dann gingen durch die detonierten Bomben dann gingen, flogen dann die Kellerfenster rein und dann, also er war grauenhaft. Na ja, und dann ist unser Haus nicht abgebrannt da sondern auch ein Paar Nebenhaüser und da hab ich mitgelöscht so und dann. Ja und dann waren die Schulen in Kassel alle kaputt, so und da haben wir drei Wochen, haben wir uns gefreut, hurrah die Schule brennt, uns gefreut alle, und so nach drei, vier Wochen dann haben wir dann doch bisschen im Zweifel geguckt und sind wir mal zu unser alten Schule gegangen, da war die ein riesen Trümmerhaufen aber die Kellergewölbe die waren noch da und da hatte die Schulsekretärin ihr Büro eingerichtet im Keller und da hatt‘se dann gesagt: ‘Jungs, also, Schule wird’s nicht mehr geben in Kassel’ und so war’s dann auch. Da wurden nach dem grossen Angriff, da sind ja etwa zehntausend Menschen umgekommen, und die ganze Altstadt, alles ein Trümmerhaufen, also es war grauenhaft neh und da sind die ganzen jungen Mütter mit ihren Kindern in einer Woche alle aus Kassel weggeschickt worden, die kamen alle in irgendwelche Lager, die Organisation die war damals schon wirklich klasse neh. So, und wir kamen in ein verlassenes Arbeitsdienstlager nach Bracht, bei Marburg liegt das, das war so alles ein Arbeitsdienstlager mit Baracken und da kamen wir alle rein.
HZ: Ist es Bracht mit B?
HK: Bracht mit B, R, A.
HZ: Ja.
HK: So etwa neh. Ich bin nachher nie wieder da gewesen. So und dann schliefen wir in den Hut, in den grossen Baracken da, zwanzig Leute gingen da glaub ich rein, dann immer zwei Lehrer dabei, die schliefen auf Strohsäcken dann und so und dann am Tag hatten wir da ein bisschen Schule und dann kriegten wir irgendwie die Nachricht das wir zur, als Luftwaffenhelfer eingezogen wurden und wir konnten dann nach Hause also im Dezember 1944, konnten wir, die wir bald eingezogen wurden, schon nach Hause. Und dann am fünften Januar mussten wir antreten Schule [unclear] Schule mit einem Papkarton und da stand da genau drinn was man da alles mitbringen durften, zwei Unterhosen, und ein Paar Socken, alles so was [laughs]. Und dann wurden wir auf’n LKW geladen und da stand da drauf:’Eltern durften nicht da mit’ oder so änlich wurde das da bezeichnet und von meinem Freund Erich, der mit mir grossgeworden ist, die Mutter die war klever, die ist dann hinter uns her gegangen wo wir zum, und wo wir auf der einen Seite von dem LKW standen dann ist sie auf der anderen Seite durch so’n Buschwerk und hat den Fahrer geholt und hat gesagt:’Hören Sie mal, wo fahren Sie den hin, mein Sohn ist hier bei’. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Nach Heiligenrode’ und da wusste, wusste meine Mutter, hatte gleich Bescheid, wussten die zumindest wo wir Jungen hinkamen. Und da sind wir furchtbar ausgebildet worden, also furchtbar, jeden Tag acht Stunden und das im Januar bei Wind und Wetter und da wurden wir auch fast alle krank und erkältet und alles sowas. Und dann so nach’m viertel Jahr wurden wir eingesetzt und auf, ach so und dann fragte dann der Hauptmann, der Kommandeur, der war im Zivilberuf war der Studienrat und zwar in Matte, Mathematik [laughs] und der fragte dann:’was wollen Sie werden?’ Wir waren ja alle per Sie plötzlich mit fuffzehn Jahren und was wollen sie werden, was wollen Sie [unclear] , und da habe ich gesagt:‘Baumeister, Herr Hauptmann, Baumeister’. ‚Umwertung‘, das war also wo die Zielwege aufgezeichnet wurden, das wurde viel mit Zeichnung das war natürlich was neh. Und ein anderer Klassenkamerad der sagte: ‚ich will Elektroingenieur werden‘, der kam zum Funkmessgerät, das war der Vorgänger vom Radargerät, und so hatten manche schon Vorstellung und die die gar nix wussten die kamen zur Kannonen [laughs] na ja und so wurden wir dann ausgebildet. Und ja und so ging das weiter bis zum, also Januar bis etwa Juni und da wurden wir verlegt von der Flakstellung Heiligenrode zu der Flakstellung Niederkaufungen, da war nämlich ein grosses Heeresdepot und zum Schutz von diesem Depot wurde oben auf dem Berg, das ist heute noch hier, Papierfabrik heisst das, Richtung Kaufungen wenn se da mal [unclear], da waren wir zum Schutz da, so und dann war immer Fliegeralarm aber es passierte nix und da haben wir von der Umwertung, wir mussten auch Sperrfeuer schiessen und das wurde von der Umwertung aus gemacht, das war das Flug-Malsigerät, das war so’n, [unclear] und manchmal wurde Sperrfeuer geschossen, den das Vermessen der Entfernung war sehr schwierig damals neh, am Tag ging das durch die vier-meter Basis, aber am nachts war das schwierig. Und das war in der ganzen, in dem ganzen halben Jahr vorher nicht einmal passiert. Und da bin ich mit’m Paar die den Zielweg nicht aufzeichnen brauchten [unclear] Malsigerät wir haben oben zugeguckt wie da die Flak geschossen hat und da ist wohl das Stichwort gekommen Sperrfeuer und unsere Batterie hat das nicht gemacht weil ich net da war und meine Kumpels. Und da simma nächsten Tag wurde eine zbV Batterie aufgebraut und dann kam der Hauptmann schon auf mich zu und ’Sie wissen ja warum sie jetzt versetzt werden’. Da kam ich zur zbV Batterie mit vierleutenarme [?] und da wurden wir dann umgeschult, sollten wir eigentlich nach Breslau, [clears throat] und da haben wir schon das [unclear] gepackt und alles neh und da kamen kurz davor in der Doppelbaracke da war die andere Seite, da war der Oberleutnant, der Batteriechef und der telefonierte plötzlich, da haben wir alle gehorcht und da hatt er gesagt:’Wunderbar! Ist ja wunderbar! Herrlich! Toll!’ und so und da kam er gleich zu uns rüber: ‘Wir fahren nicht nach Breslau, das ist eingenommen worden von Russen’. Und dann kamen wir zur 12,8-Batterie, wurden wir umgeschult, nach Maronhüls [?], da in diesen ehemaligen,
HZ: Wie heisst das?
HK: [unclear] hiess das Nest, das Dorf, [unclear] ist eine grosse Stadt in das [unclear] gebiet da am Rand und da war eine V2-Herstellungs, so ‘ne Fabrik, die das herstellten oder auch schossen oder wie das war. Und die wurden da immer, wenn Flieger kamen, Feinde, da wurde das eingenebelt neh. Und dann wurden wir ausgebildet an den Kannonen und eines Tages da flogen mehrere Kannonen in die Luft durch Rohrkrepierung, das war also Sabotage von Munitionsfabriken, haben irgendwelche Fehler eingebaut.
HZ: Haben dann bei Ihnen waren da auch Russische Hiwis oder waren da auch andere in den Flak?
HK: Ja, waren da [unclear] dabei, Russische weniger, aber italiener, diese Badoglio-Truppen,
HZ: Ja.
HK: Diese von dem abgesprungenen General Badoglio neh, oder Serben glaub ich und so was, die wurden dann da beschäftigt. Und irgend einer hat da warscheinlich so was erfunden dass das und da krepierten in ganz Deutschland bei der 12,8 die Granaten und da hatten sie keine Kanonen mehr. Da kamen wir wieder nach Kassel, hier oben in Welhheiden da haben wir in so einer Baracke gewohnt vierzehn Tage oder was und dann kriegten wir den Einsatzbefehl zur Vierlingsflak Umschulung am Edersee auf der Talsperre. Die war wieder hergestellt, die war ja kaputt, wissen Sie das durch die Ballbombe,
HZ: Ja, die rolling bombs.
HK: Die da rotierte neh, das war ne ganz, technisch ne ganz tolle Sache neh, da muss ich wirklich sagen also war schon klasse aber als wir hinkamen war die schon wieder zugemauert, also das war für mich als Baumensch ein riesige Leistung innerhalb vom Jahr, oder halbes Jahr was die das alles fertigmachen, so sieht’s heute noch aus, ist da nachgemacht worden.
HZ: Wir sind da mal da gewesen, ja.
HK: Also das ist also eine riesige Leistung gewesen, wie die das alle gemacht haben, das weiss ich net, jedenfalls dann wurden wir auf der Vierling, da hatten wir oben auf der Mauer da war so’n holz, Holztürmchen aufgebaut da standen vier, drei Vierlingsflak [laughs] und da soll’n wir nun, wurden wir ausgebildet. So und dann am zwanzigsten, so und dann weil wir vier Kasselaner waren dann wurden wir immer weggeschickt zum Kurierdienst weil man der, Autos gab’s ja nicht, sie mussten also die Kurierpost, die musste zur Heeresgruppe, zur Luftwaffengruppe, des war hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke hier in Kassel und da konnten sie an einem Tage nicht mit der Bahn hinfahren und wieder zurückkommen und da haben sie uns vier Kasseler immer eingeteilt, da konnten wir zuhause schlafen. Und da hatten wir das natürlich wunderbar. Und [unclear] ich mal wieder wegblicken, Anfang Februar oder irgend, Mitte Februar war das, da sagte mir der Schreibstubenbulle da, sagte:’Hör mal, wenn du jetzt nach hause gehst bring dir mal ein Paar Zivilklammotten mit’. Ich sag:’warum dann das?’. Das habe ich dann gemacht und dann zwei Tage später bei der Befehlsausgabe, da sagte der Hauptmann: ‘Wer hat Zivilsachen mit?’ Ich, Herr Hauptmann’, ‘morgen Abmarsch’ und da war die Entlassung hier neh. 20 Februar 1944 wurde ich von der Flak entlassen, ich war der erste [laughs], werde ich nie vergessen. Na ja, und dann war ich ein Paar Tage zuhause und da kriegte ich die Einberufung da, die hatte ich ja schon und dann hatten wir den Angriff hier etwa, ich weiss des Datum leider net mehr, am zweiten März oder irgendsowas, muss jetzt, grade jetzt auf die Zeit [unclear] muss das gewesen sein,
HZ: Ich hab mir.
HK: Da ist das Haus getroffen worden und ich war da zu Hause und da war ich mit ein Paar Freunden in einem Bunker.
HZ: Ja?
HK: Das erste Mal in meinem Leben in einen Bunker gewesen, weil da einer Musik machte, da war immer so’n bisschen was los. Und da kam ein Junge rein der sagte: ‘Helmut, stell dir mal vor, bei euch da in der Strasse brennt’s wie verrückt’. Und da bin ich raus, der Luftschutzwache wollte mich net raus lassen, da hab ich ihn weggeschoben, das war mich ganz egal [unclear] und da kam ich hin polterte die treppe hoch so, kurz vor mir ist die Holztreppe eingekracht, desshalb würde ich heute als Baumensch nie eine Holztreppe bauen, immer ne Betontreppe [laughs]. So und da stand ich unten und sah wie aus unserem Wohnzimmer, unserem Herrenzimmer die Flammen [unclear] schlugen und ich konnte nix machen. Da guckte ich so an mir runter da hatte ich Hose an und Schuhe an, keinen Kamm, keine Zahnbürste, da kam ich mir vor wie der ärmste Mensch den’s gibt auf der Welt, wirklich dieses Gefühl, das habe ich schon meinen Kindern erzählt, das war furchtbar, da stand ich da ach Gott, mein Wintermantel der hängt da an der Gardrobe, alles so und kam ich da gar net dran, das war eine furchtbare Nacht. Da bin ich mit meinen Freund, der war auch zufällig da, und da sind wir in den Keller, haben das bisschen was Mutter so’n Paar Koffer und so was, haben wir dann raus auf die Strasse gestellt, na ja und das haben wir dann, haben wir später mit einem Pferdefuhrwerk geholt und alles nach Gudensberg geschafft zu Verwandten.
HZ: Ja, die Geschichte wo Sie da noch zur Stadtkommandantur gegangen sind [unclear] mir erzählt haben.
HK: Ja, das ist da passiert.
HZ: Ja, die könnense noch amal für das Band erzählen.
HK: Ja, gut und da hatte ich ja di Einberufung und dann, so die hatte ich ja vorher schon deshalb bin ich ja bei der Flak entlassen worden, und dann einberufen sollte ich werden, das glaub ich am 6 März oder irgendwas sollte ich da antanzen und am zweiten oder so dann passierte der Bombenangriff und da hat der Onkel gesagt, neh, richtig, der Onkel hat gesagt:’Neh, das geht net, da kannste net weg’, ich sage:’Was mache ich den jetzt?’ ‚Ja dann, geh doch mal zur Ostkommandantur’, und da bin ich dann nach Kassel, ich glaub sogar gelaufen, [unclear] viele Stunden, und dann war die Geschichte ja mit der Ostkommandantur, wo ich draussen stand der Posten und da sagte ich, ‘Luftwaffenoberhelfer Koeler hier der will zum Ostkommandanten sprechen’, [laughs] das ich überhaupt den Mut hatte da staune ich heute noch, und wo er dann, wo ich dann sagte: ‘Ich bitte da um ein Paar Tage Urlaub, meine Mutter ist alleine und wir haben ein Paar Sachen rausgeholt aus’m Keller, die stehen da alle noch und ich muss, meine schwangere Schwester kann auch net helfen und so neh, und dann hat er dann gesagt also, na ja, mich mitleidig angeguckt und da hat er gesagt: ‘Na ja, melden sich in acht Tagen wieder’. ‘Jawohl!’ Und dann bin ich dann los und dann hat der Onkel gefragt: ‘Hat er überhaupt gefragt wo du wohnst?’, da hab ich gesagt: ‘neh’, ‚das ist gut, da gehst du nicht mehr hin‘. Und dann haben wir den englischen Rundfunk gehört abends, ‘Hier ist England, Hier ist England’. Und dann habe ich dann nun, haben wir dann nun bald erfahren wo die Amerikanischen Truppen, die sind dann in Remagen über’m Rhein weg, und dann waren sie schon über Frankfurt weg, und dann sagte der Onkel: ‘Das dauert keine zwei Wochen dann sind die hier’, und es stimmte auch. Am ersten April waren die ersten Amis in Gudensberg. Und so bin ich davongekommen. Und vorher hatte ich noch, da hatte mich mit so’n Mädchen da getroffen, standen wir so im Hauseingang, Ich konnte ja nur abends weggehen, am Tage lies mich der Onkel net raus, da kam einer plötzlich [makes a noise] stand einer neben mir, guckte mich an, sagte: ‘Bist Du den verrückt?’, der dachte ich wäre so’n Desertierter, er war nämlich auch einer. ‚du stellst dich hier hin, eben haben’se drei da oben erschossen‘, die haben’se erwischt neh, und da wurde es mir natürlich unheimlich, da bin ich auch abends weggegangen. Ja und bis die Amerikaner kamen. Das war ein Karfreitag, erster April 1945 [laughs], Karfreitag war das. Und die Tante hatte vorher schon ein bisschen Kuchen gebacken und dann sassen wir dann am Küchentisch und haben Kuchen gegessen. Auf einmal klopft es an der Haustür. Da kamen die ersten Amerikanischen Soldaten. Vor jedem Haus hielt ein, wie nannten die sich diese drei-achsler?, LKWs, na ja gut, weiss jetzt nimmer, und da sassen immer zehn Mann drauf, Amerikaner und im jedem Haus kam da Einquartierung und da mussten die Zivilleute alle raus. Und da kam der Unteroffizier oder was er da war, weiss ich net, der kam als erste sah mich an: ‘Raus!’, so ‘Raus!’. Da sag ich: ‘Moment muss ich Schuhe anziehen‘, zieh am ende Schuhe, dann kam ich die Treppe da runter und da standen zwei mit der MP und haben sie mich abgeführt zum Ostkommandanten. Und da war so’n netter kleiner Dolmetscher und der fragte: ‘Warum sind sie kein Soldat?’ Sag ich: ‘Ich war bei, als Luftwaffenhelfer’. Konnte er nix mit anfagen. [unclear] Und diesen Luftwaffenhelferausweis den hatte ich in der Tasche und dann wollte ich ihn zeigen und da fiel er vor lauter Aufregung fiel mir da hin, da war der schneller da und, ‘Ach!’ sagte ‘jetzt weiss ich was sie waren’. Da ist er zu seinem Boss hingegangen, zu dem Kolonel oder, neh Kolonel war er net, also der Offizier neh, und da kam der raus und dann guckte der mich an. This fellow is [unclear], ab und da bin ich auch schnell nach hause und so bin ich davongekommen. Draussen standen dann da, die haben sie alle aufgesammelt, die verwundet waren, Verwundetenurlaub und so und die sind dann alle nach Frankreich abgeschoben worden. Mussten ein Jahr im Bergwerk arbeiten und so. Ich bin da davongekommen. Das war meine Zeit in Gudensberg und da war ich eben fünf Jahre in Gudensberg, Fussball gespielt und so, das war eine schöne Zeit, aber in Kassel gab’s keine Schulen, des erste halbe Jahr gab’s nix. Und mein Freund hier, der Erich, der ist in Kassel weiter geblieben und der hat mich immer mal besucht in Gudensberg und der sagte eines Tages: ‘Helmut, im Herbst geht die Schule wieder los‘, die Albert-Schweitzer Schule, hier in der Kölnischen Strasse, die hiess damals Adolf Hitler Schule während des Krieges [laughs], und der sagte der Rektor da das ist der Ale Witschi [?], der mal zu uns in der Flakstellung kam und mit dem habe ich jetzt mal gesprochen über dich und der hatte gesagt ich sollte mal kommen, sollte mal gucken, der hätte einen Plan für mich. Da bin ich dann hingegangen, habe einen Ausbildungschef gefragt, hier ‚n Meister, darf ich da mal dahingehen? Ja selbstverständlich. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Gut, zwei Tage Schule haben wir in der Woche. Und in den zwei Tagen kannste zur Schule gehen und die anderen vier Tage, weil ja Sonnabend auch ein Arbeitstag war, da gehste in die Lehre. Frag mal deinen Lehrmeister ob er das macht.
HZ: Und was haben sie da für eine Lehre gemacht?
HK: Maurerlehrer.
HZ: Maurerlehrer.
HK: So ich war im Baugeschäft, und meine Mutter stammte auch aus dem Baugeschäft, also für mich gab’s gar nichts anderes, ich war, begeistert bin ich heute noch. Ich wollte Baumeister werden, was das damals war weiss ich net, aber das wollte ich ja einfach werden und da musste ich, ja Schule gab’s nicht mehr und da hab ich gesagt, jeden Tag beim Onkel Stall misten wollte ich auch net, ich will Lehre machen und so. So ist das gekommen. Und die Tochter von dem Bauunternehmer hier in Kassel, die war eine Freundin von meiner ältesten Schwester. Also wir kannten die, die Familie kannte sich persönlich sowieso. Nun dann bin ich zum Vitrokin [?], das war der Rektor, der Kommissarische Rektor von der Schule und der hat mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel den der kam in unser Flakschirm das hat man auch Unterricht gekriegt [unclear] Flakschirm weil wir Schüler waren neh und dann hatt er manchmal gesagt [unclear]:’Ach Jungs, habt ihr noch mal, nimmt mal eine Tasse Kaffee für mich’ Und dann kam so, alles zu Fuss, [unclear] und der war wie’n Kumpel für uns, das war der Lehrer, und dann hat er mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel da neh, sagte mach dein Lehrmeister einen Vorschlag und da machste bis Ostern das und dann kriegste das Zeugnis der Mittleren Reife, das hatte ich auch net, hatte ich nix, Schule kaputt, und so haben wir das gemacht. Dann bin ich zwei Tage zu Schule gegangen, richtig noch Latein und Matte und alles sowas neh und dann habe ich so ein Einheitszeugnis, so gross, stand ‘Alles befriedigt’ [laughs]. Na ja gut, und das ist meine Schulausbildung gewesen, kein Abitur gemacht, gar nix. Na ja, und dann habe ich dann studiert, habe ich dann meine Maurerlehre gemacht, an der staatlichen Ingenieurschule beworben, und das war ja auch so tragisch. Da musste zwei Tage Aufnahmeprufung sein neh, mit dem bisschen Wissen was ich da aus der Schule hatte und dann waren, dreisig haben, wolltense aufnehmen, und driehundertsechsig Bewerber kamen da in die Schule am Königstor als Offiziere und hatten noch ihre Offiziersmäntel an und so weil wir nix kaufen konnten [unclear]. Und da bin ich natürlich mit Glanz und Gloria auch durchgefallen. Und da habe ich mich auf die Hose gesetzt. Mit einem Freund aus Gudensberg zusammen, den Roman [unclear], der stammte aus Litauen, der war da Flüchtling, und da haben wir da richtig gepauckt. Hier neben uns da wohnte der Doktor Enders, Mathematik, Studienrat, war’n Kollege, Freund von meinem Vater, genau hier in der Parallelwohnung in der [unclear] und der hat uns dann Mathe beigebracht. Plötzlich viel es mir wie Schuppen von den Augen, plözlich konnte ich ne Gleichung mit zwei Unbekannten, das war gar kein Problem mehr. Und so bin ich dann zur zweiten Prüfung ein halbes Jahr später und da hab ich’s bestanden und so hab ich meine Paar Semester, fünf, sechs Semester glaub ich, [unclear] Ausbildung
HZ: Gemacht.
HK: So ist das geworden. Und dann fanden wir keine Arbeit und so. Und dann bin ich da mit einem Kollegen hier rumgelaufen ob als Maurer ein bisschen Geld verdienen konnten, als Maurer kriegten’se [unclear] Arbeit das war ’52.
HZ: Das war [unclear].
HK: Das war ganz ganz schlimm neh. Und dann hatte ich durch einen Onkel, der war in Bielefeld Stadtrat und der hat mir vermittelt beim Bielefelder Tiefbeamt eine Aushilfstelle für einviertel Jahr und habe auch bei denen gewohnt, es waren so Industrielle die haben da heute noch so Fabriken und so was Graustoffwerk und da hatten sie aber keine Planstelle und mittlerweile habe ich mich beworben bei einer Hamburger Firma die ein Onkel von mir kannte weil der Besitzer, der Vater von dem jetzigen Besitzer er war, war ein Studienkollege von meinem Ober, so hat sich das ergeben. Und die bauten Helgoland wieder auf, weil Helgoland ja ein Abwurfgebiet von der Britischen Armee war nach’m Kriege, da haben sie X Bomben ausprobiert, die ganze Insel Helgoland die war praktisch unbewohnbar, Blindgänger und die mussten wir, wurde praktisch umgepflügt die ganze Insel, drei meter da weggetragen und dahingepackt und da gingen natürlich immer die Blindgänger und die Bomben hoch. Die Bagger die hatten solche Stahlplatten davor, das der Fahrer net verletzt wurde. Und kurz davor kriegt ich ein Telegramm, das habe ich übrigens noch, nächste Woche nicht, Telefon gab’s ja gar net, nicht nach Helgoland sondern Mönchengladbach. So, Telefonummer aufgeschrieben, da bin ich nach Mönchengladbach gefahren da kriegte, hatte die Firma einen grossen Auftrag gekriegt, das englische Hauptquartier, das Hauptverwaltungsgebaüde, das steht übrigens heute noch, da habe ich auch jetzt ein Bild gefunden noch davon und das hatte ja zweitausendzweihundert und so und soviele Zimmer, Britische Rheinarmee. Und das habe ich, da war ich Bauführer nannte sich damals. Waren wir drei Mann und hatten teilweise bis vierhundert Leute beschäftigt. Britische Rheinarmee hiess das glaub ich. Und da habe ich auch die Einweihung mitgemacht, da haben wir noch, vorne in den Haupteingang, in dem Pfeiler, da haben wir noch eine Kassette eingemauert die muss heute noch [unclear] sein, sind noch warscheinlich noch Namen die ich noch merkte, ich weiss es nimmer so genau, mit ne silbernen Kelle haben wir da [unclear]. Und das war meine Grösse und auch eine, da habe ich viel gelernt [unclear]. Ganze drei Jahre war ich da. Das war sehr interessant und da habe ich mit einem Englischen Pionieroffizier viel zu tun gehabt neh, das waren die die eher kein Deutsch konnten. Und ein Ziviloffizier der war mittlerweile dann, er war früher auch bei den Pionieren gewesen und der war dann entlassen worden wegen Alter, der war dann schon Ende fuffzig oder irgendwas, und der wollte noch als Zivilingenieur und der schlief auch in einer Barakke von uns und dem haben wir auch Skatspielen beigebracht.
HZ: [laughs]
HK: Und dann haben wir auch mit dem die Weltmeisterschaften damals wo Deutschland Weltmeister 1954, da hatten wir noch kein Fernsehen und alles so was. Da hat er mit uns geguckt, da haben wir auf’n Stuhlen gestanden und [laughs], na ja und das war der mister Webster und der hat mich so ein bisschen aufgeklärt, der sagte, hören sie mal Herr Koehler, der sprach ganz gut Deutsch, weil er eine Deutsche Frau hatte aus Aachen und der sagte: ‚Die können bestimmt auch Deutsch‘, und da habe ich mal irgendwie was falsch verstanden und da hat er mich zur Rede gestellt. Mister Buru, was er für einen [unclear] hatte weiss ich nicht, Major, Major Buru, und da habe ich gesagt: ‚so Major Buru‘, habe ich in Deutsch dann gesagt, ab jetzt kann ich kein Englisch mehr‘ und da hat er gelacht und da kam der mister Webster dazu und da haben die ein bisschen gequatscht und seit dem haben wir nur noch Deutsch gesprochen und mit den anderen Kollegen genauso [laughs]. Das war nun meine Zeit mit den Engländern und ich wollte immer nochmal nach’m Kriege hin, nach der Zeit hin, aber ich bin nie wieder dahingekommen. Es muss heute noch da und wenn sie mal da in der Nähe sind, Mönchengladbach, Ortsteil Hardter Wald, das ist ja’n Riesenbezirk, das sind ja, das ist hier wie ‚ne Stadt, da lebten fast zwanzigtausend Menschen, da gab’s Schulen und für die Offiziere, und Offizierskasino und Kino und Theater und da haben wir mehrere Baustellen gehabt, das war meine schönste Zeit so mit
HZ: Aus [unclear]
HK: Und von da aus sollte ich dann nach Berlin da kriegtense in Berlin ‚n Auftrag, und weil wir nun damals für das Englische Hauptquartier bauten, da waren wir für die DDR Feinde. Das war der Karl Eduard von Schnitzler hiess der, Sudel-Ede hiess der, der brachte so politische Kommentare jeden Tag, das war so’n Richter. Ich weiss nicht ob sie den Namen schon
HZ: Den Namen kenn ich noch ja.
HK: Eduard von Schnitzler, der Sudel-Ede hiess er bei uns, und der hat da mal gesagt: ‘Es gibt sogar Deutsche die für die feindlichen Truppen heute noch bauen’ und da haben wir sogar, wurden die Namen genannt, unsere drei Namen. Und ich hab’s selber net gehört, das haben sie von Hauptbüro aus Hamburg habense uns das gesagt, also hütet euch, die Verbindungsstrasse zu fahren zwischen Helmstedt und Berlin, [unclear] vielleicht festgenommen. Und dann sollte ich nach Berlin, da hätten wir nun fliegen können von Hannover aus und da hab ich dann hier alles mögliche mobil gemacht hier in Kassel neh. Durch so‘n befreundeten Architekten, dann kriegte ich dann ‚ne Stelle bei einem Architekten hier und von da aus, na ja, das interessiert sie jetzt [unclear]. Und so bin ich nachher bei der Stadt gelandet, bei der Stadt Kassel und hab für die die Kläranlage, das war der erste grosse Massnahme, die Kläranlage baute, seit dem haben sie mich übernommen und da war ich naher auch in zwanzig Jahren Sachgebietsleiter vom Brucken und [unclear] Bau. Wenn sie jetzt über eine Brücke fahren ist alles so [laughs]
HZ: [laughs] kann ich sagen.
HK: Na ja gut das ist mein Lebenslauf.
HZ: Ehm, so, weil sie schon mal angefangen, angesprochen haben mit dem Bombenangriff auf Kassel, was denken sie eigentlich wären so prägende Erlebnisse gewesen die sie vielleicht auch heute noch beschäftigen?
HK: Ja, die mich heute noch beschäftigen, ich seh’s jetzt erstmal vom baulichen Standpunkt her. Die ganze Altstadt, die aus‘m Mittelalter noch stammt, die ist mit einem Schlag innerhalb zwei Stunden war alles kaputt und zehntausend Menschen in den Kellern, so, und die haben einen schönen Tod gehabt. Die sind an Sauerstoffmangel eingeschlafen. Den Keller hat wir ja früher net met waagerechten Decken gemacht sondern es waren nur Gewölbe, sonst ging aus staatlichen Gründen net anders neh. Und da sind die eingeschlafen, die sind regelrecht gebacken worden, oben bis auf diesen brennenden Schutt rauf und dieses Gewölbe war wie Backofen beim Bäcker. Da sind die zusammengeschrumpft so wie wir, wir wären plötzlich so gross gewesen, dieses ganze Wasser wäre verdampft neh. Die haben eigentlich einen sehr schönen Tod gehabt. Entschuldige wenn ich das so sage heute, das will ja keiner hören. Die sind eingeschlafen, Sauerstoffmangel, eingeschlafen und nie wieder aufgewacht. Und sind gebacken worden. Denn Ich habe die ja nachher gesehen wo sie aus den Kellergewölben rausgeholt wurden, von Gefangenen her, die ehemaligen Nazis und die mussten die da rausholen. Nach’m Kriege und so neh.
HZ: Sind da eigentlich beim raümen weil sie da auch dabei waren, sind da auch Zwangsarbeiter und Kriegs, wie heiss’ns, Kriegsgefangene eingesetzt worden?
HK: Ja diese, Kriegsgefangene, waren da auch. Das will ich noch mal kurz sagen. Die Flakstellung wo wir waren bei der Flak. Ich war nun bei der Umwertung, und der, war mein Schulfreund hier und der Elektrofritze da, wir hatten zuhause, der Mann, der Ober der war schon ein grosser Elektroindustrielle und so, Funkmessgerät und so. Und wennse zur, an’s Geschutz kamen, da war, drei Kannoniere waren Luftwaffenhelfer, die stellten diese Messgeräte an, wir konnten das ja viel besser als die Soldaten die vorher da waren, weil wir schneller und pfiffiger waren neh, das waren drei Luftwaffenhelfer an jeder eine Kannone, die die Breitengrade, Höhengrade und die Entfernung eingestellt haben und der Ladekannonier das war ein Deutscher und die Zureichen die Munition, das waren meistens Russische Kriegsgefangene. Müssen sich das vorstellen, die saßen, oder Französische, die saßen mit uns in dem kleinen Wald da neh und haben gebibbert. Dann habe ich dann auch von denen die, zum Teil Deutsch, hattense immer Hunger und dann kriegten sie von uns immer eine Scheibe Brot neh und alles so was. Wir hatten ein gutes Verhältnis mit denen, das war das mit den Kriegsgefangenen und die waren natürlich auch viele in der Industrie hier in Kassel, in Kassel hatten wir die Junkerswerke und so,
HZ: Da hätten [unclear] der Fieseler.
HK: Fieseler und so. Und auch die Munition herstellten [unclear] war früher neh und so und deshalb war ja auch die Flak hier rings rum und so. Ja und so haben wir viel mit den Kriegsgefangenen, wie viel da nun tot gegangen sind hier in der Stadt, die wohnten ja net hier in so, die wohnten immer ausserhalb in so Lagern, desshalb sind net allzu viele da umgekommen von den Kriegsgefangenen.
HZ: Nöh, ich hab bloß, ob die dann auch eingesetzt, ob die dann auch eingesetzt wurden beim raümen. Ich hatte da, ich hatte da von dem, da hatt schon mal einer Überlebensberichte veröffentlicht ‚93, die habe ich mir mal angeguckt und da sind auch zumindestens zwei Holländer und ein Franzose dabei. Aber, weil halt dann die Zeitungen hier, die Regionalzeitungen, die fragen ja dann schon nach Zuschriften, aber weil das ja dann immer bloß regional gemacht wird, da kriegt man ja dann immer bloß die Deutschen Stimmen,
HK: Richtig. Richtig, genau. Richtig.
HZ: Die von dem anderen, da hört man ja nix und das wär natürlich auch mal interessant.
HK: Nein also Holländer waren viele, Kriegsgefangene Holländer waren viele hier in Kassel. Und hier eine kleine Episode wo wir aus dem Keller mit meinen Freunden, aus dem, irgendwo brannte es, aus dem Keller haben wir dann die Paar Sachen rausgeholt, die lagen tagelang, vier, fünf Tage auf der Strasse, da hat keiner was geklaut oder irgendwas neh. Und dann wo wir dann mit dem Pferdewagen hier nach Kassel kamen und haben das dann abgeholt wollen, da war mitten in der Strasse, also die Hansteinstrasse, die Uferstrasse ist, genau in der mitte der Strasse war ein Riesenbombentrichter. Wir konnten also mit dem Wagen garnet zu unserm Haus finden.
HZ: Ja.
HK: Es war nur so’n schmaler Streifen an dem Vorgarten links und da hätten wir die ganzen Sachen da vorne an die Hauptstrasse bringen müssen, wo der Wagen stand, und da bin ich unten in die Hauptstrasse rein und da kam mal zwei Männer und da sag ich:, kommt mal her, wollt ihr mir da ein bisschen helfen?‘, das waren Holländer und die haben mir geholfen diese Sachen dahin und da habense so’ne Flasche Wein also von meinem Vater her, der hatte noch so‘n Weinschrank und da waren noch ein Paar Flaschen Wein drin und da hab ich ihnen eine gegeben und eine habense mir noch geklaut, das hab ich aber erst später gemerkt aber das hab ich ja eingesehen, das war schon richtig neh und so und das waren Holländer. Die haben mir dann geholfen. Also die liefen dann hier rum, so Freizeit, haben net dauernd gearbeitet, aber wie das war weiss ich net. Also über diese Verhaltnisse weiss ich eigentlich wenig Bescheid, die waren nur da, aber was se sonst so gemacht haben weiss ich net.
HZ: Da hat’s, ’95, die haben mal eine Wiedervereinigung hier gemacht, da haben sich welche hier in Kassel sogar wieder, wieder getroffen. Aber wie gesagt, die, man hört halt die Stimmen, man hört halt immer bloß die, also die Deutsch waren und auch hier im Gebiet geblieben sind, weil ich glaube das da einer in Bad Nauheim zum Beispiel die Hannoversche Allgemeine liesst, die werden, da gib’s halt dann keine Zuschrifften, desswegen habe ich da bloß immer so, so gefragt.
HK: Also es gab ja viele persönliche Schicksale auch neh, das auch sich Freundschaften gebildet haben. Zum Beispiel hier hatte mein Onkel in Gudensberg, der kriegte einen Polnischen Kriegsgefangenen, so als Hilfe, und das war ein Polnischer Student, war ein hochintelligenter Kerl, Jurek hiess er, und der hatte vorher noch nie was mit Landwirtschaft zu tun gehabt, der musste da milken lernen und so, der hatte es sehr gut beim Onkel, der durfte nur net am Tisch sitzen, sondern der musste am Küchentisch, da wurde so’ne Platte rausgeschoben, da sass der. Und mit dem bin ich dann zusammen auf’n Acker und hab gehackt und so und da hab ich ihm die Deutsche Grammatik beigebracht, das wollte er gerne wissen und ich hab da auch die Polnische Grammatik mitgekriegt, also das war aüsserst interessant. Und die Geschichte, er interessierte sich für alles, also war schon interessant neh. Hatten ne richtige Freundschaft geschlossen neh, der war nur zehn Jahre älter oder was, aber trotzdem. Und der ist auf einem Polnischen Zerstörer Soldat gewesen und da kamen die Stukas gleich am ersten oder zweiten Tag und haben den versenkt in der Ostsee und da haben sich ganze drei Mann retten können und er konnte gut schwimmen und hatt dann, durch’s schwimmen hatt er dann sich’s Leben gerettet. Und dadurch das er nun gut Deutsch konnte und sehr intelligent war, ist er in dem Polnischen Reisebüro Orbis nachher angestellt gewesen, in Danzig, neh in Posen glaub ich war das, neh Danzig, Stettin, entschuldigung, es ist, so ist das heute mit dem alten Kopf, Stettin. Und der hat mich hier mehrmals besucht. Der war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier in Deutschland sich bewegen durfte und der hat die Deutschen Reisegruppen, die wurden an der Grenze abgefangen und dann, die mussten ja alles ohne Aufsicht neh und wenn ne Deutsche Reisegruppe war, dann haben sie ihn eingeteilt weil er auch Deutsch konnte und wenn hier eine Reisegruppe aus Kassel kam, dann hatt er gesagt: ‚Sie kommen aus Kassel?‘, ‚Ja‘ ,Kennen sie Helmut Koehler?‘ ‚Nöh‘. Dann hatt er ihn die Telephonnummer gegeben, ja da hatte ich schon Telephon richtig, Anfang der 60er Jahre oder wann das war, ändert doch, ja so ungefähr, was soll denn, und da hatt er gesagt: ‚Rufen sie an wenn sie jetzt zuhause sind‘. Und da kriegt ich da X Telephongespräche hier von allen möglichen Leuten, ich soll sie grussen vom Yurek, [laughs] war schon interessant. Und dann kam er dann wirklich mal an und hat, er war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier nach Deutschland kommen konnte. Und dann kam er hier an, hatte vorher angerufen, war meine Frau da, die kannte den Jurek ja net und dann sagt’se, rief sie mich an im Büro, sagt‘se:‘Der Jurek hat angerufen‘. Jurek, ja dein Polnischer Freund, ja ja. Und dann haben wir am Fenster gestanden, um fünf oder was wollte er kommen und hatt sich dann, savott, [unclear] sieht genauso aus. Und der war jahrelang gleich nach’m Kriegsende hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke da kamen die ganzen Polnischen und Russischen Kriegsgefangenen wurden da erstmal einquartiert und da war er Chef der Lagerpolizei. Da hat er mich eingeladen zu seiner Hochzeit, da hat er geheiratet und da hat meine Mutter gesagt: ‚Du kannst da net hinfahren, erstmal komste da gar net hin‘, erstmal von Gudensberg aus nach Kassel fuhr gar kein Zug richtig, und dann von hier aus laufen bis zur Hasenhecke das war in Waldau ganz, ich weiss net ob sie das genau so kennense.
HZ: Wir sind heute oben gewesen.
HK: Waldau, das ist so ganz unten an der Fulda da neh. Das ist noch mal mindestens zwei Stunden Fussweg neh, wie willste denn dahin kommen und da bin ich da net hin. Und da hat er mich am Bahnhof abgepasst, ich hab ja da schon gearbeitet, da hat er gesagt:‘So, du bist auf meiner Hochzeit nicht gewesen‘, da hat er mich ein ganzes Jahr lang net angeguckt, da kam er [unclear]. Und der, ich hab noch Post von ihm heute, da hatt er mir, ach, x-mal geschrieben und da kam er hier und dann hatt er mir von der Polnischen Politik berichtet, hier bei mir durfte er das jetzt sagen. Also das waren Zustände, wissense [unclear], soundosoviel Quadratmeter eine Person, durfte glaub ich nur zehn Quadratmeter Wohnfläche haben für eine Person sonst musseste zahlen, also unmögliche Zustände. Na ja gut, das war mit den Polen.
HZ: Und noch, noch irgendwas von der, noch irgendwas aus ihrer Zeit von der, bei der Flak?
HK: Von der Flak, neh. Ja gut also, wie gesagt, hier wo wir am Edersee waren, alle, zweimal in der Woche musste ich nach Kassel fahren, ich hatt’s natürlich gut, da brauchte ich keinen Dienst mehr zu machen. Und so habe ich auch viele Angriffe mitgemacht, die letzten Angriffe neh. Und da war ja meine Mutter und meine [unclear] schwangere Schwester die waren dann schon in Gudensberg, aber die Wohnung war immernoch da, die ist erst ganz, ja, letzter Angriff oder vorletzter Angriff auf Kassel. Und da war die Nachbarin die hat ja gesagt: ‚Helmut, kannst ruhig hier schlafen, wenn Fliegeralarm kommt da mach ich dich schon wach‘. Weil ich das [unclear] gehört habe, als junger Bursche [laughs] und so war das neh. Ja also da gibt’s eigentlich und dann die Angriffe hier. Dann eines Tages hatten wir einen Blindgänger im Haus, das war in der Silvesternacht, vom ‚44 auf ‚45, da war ich am Edersee und Neujahr musste ich Kurierdienst machen und da war ein Zettel an der Haustür: ‚Vorsicht, Blindgänger‘. Alle Leute [unclear] raus, die mussten alle weg. Da ist durch die Decken, durch die Bäder, wir hatten sogar schon Bäder damals, ist die Bombe durch die ganzen Bäder durch und über der Luftschutzkellerdecke ist die Bombe hängen geblieben, wenn die explodierte waren sie alle tot. Und meine Mutter, wir wohnten im dritten Stock, die ist als erstes raufgegangen, die wäre fast da reingefallen in das Loch, die hat das erst gar nicht gesehen weil ja kein Licht da, kein Strom und nix. Und dann hat sie geschrien und dann die Leute alle: ‚Ach Gott!‘ durch die Badewanne durch, war plötzlich ein Loch [laughs]. Na ja, und das haben’se dann wieder irgendwie geflickt, bis es dann ganz kaputt ging. Ja und als Luftwaffenhelfer das was insofern ‚ne interessante Zeit weil das für uns eben, ja, wie soll ich das sagen, wir waren aufgeweckte Gymnasiasten und wir hatten plötzlich eine Zeit vor uns die, die wir net richtig begreifen konnten, habe ich ja eben schon gesagt was is wenn der Krieg jetzt zu Ende ist, was passiert denn mit uns? Diese Gespräche hatten wir schon.
HZ: Das könnten sie auch für das Band nochamal dazu sagen, weil das haben sie mir ja schon vorher mal erzählt. Die Gespräche dann das die vielleicht, das da vielleicht die Flakhelfer so einen Sieg des Dritten Reiches gar net so entgegengesehn haben.
HK: Ja, das war zum Beispeil nach dem Angriff, nach dem Attentat auf‘m Hitler, das war der 20 Juni, Juli, glaub’ich, Juni.
HZ: Juni.
HK: 20 Juni 1944.
HZ: ‚44.
HK: Und dann, wie gesagt, dann in der Kabine, von der Funk, ach wie heisst der, wo die Nachrichten kamen, da wurde dann immer so die Lage da mitgeteilt, Hitler ist davongekommen undsoweiter, aes wurde da immer mitgeteilt. Und da kam der Hauptmann, Leutnant [unclear] und konnte dann [unclear] hören. So und da haben wir abends im Bett gelegen und haben dann gesagt: ‚Hier, das was wohl jetzt wird hier‘ undsoweiter und der Hitler ist davongekommen und da hat der einer gesagt.‘So’ne Scheisse!‘ [laughs], das werde ich also nie vergessen. Und da haben wir schon drüber unterhalten. Was wäre gewesen wenn und da haben wir aber auch debatiert drüber was des auch der Stauffenberg neh, was der auch für Fehler gemacht hat. Wenn er schon sowas macht, das Attentat auf’n Hitler, dann hätte er das auch richtig machen müssen. Er hätte warten müssen bis der tot ist, net vorher schon weglaufen. Er ist ja weggelaufen wo es da explodiert ist, er hätte sich erkundigen müssen, ist er nun wirklich tot oder so, und dadurch ist [unclear] das alles entstanden, wäre er danach stehngeblieben und hätte anschliessend erschossen, dann wäre er zwar auch erschossen worden aber so ist er auch umgekommen. Also das haben wir damals diskutiert, also der Stauffenberg hat da Fehler gemacht. Also so sachliche Gespräche haben wir als junge Leute gemacht, das ist mir noch gut [unclear] aber sonst mussten wir immer das machen was befohlen wurde, eigene Initiative konnten wir net haben.
HZ: Die, ehm, da werden verschiedene Zahlen angegeben, wie viel Flakhelfer einen Luftwaffensoldaten ersätzt hätten, ‚43, da heisst es, die einen sagen das wären, ein Flakhelfer für einen Soldaten gewesen, andere sagen das seien drei Flakhelfer für zwei Soldaten gewesen. Wissen sie da irgendwas?
HK: Hab ich ihnen ja eben gesagt, also diese Posten die wir hatten an der Kannone, die wären sonst von Soldaten gemacht worden
HZ: Also eins zu eins.
HK: Also jede Kannone wurden drei Soldaten gespart. Und wenn’s so’ne Grosskampfbatterie, die hatten acht Kannonen, acht ortsfeste Kannonen, also drei mal achzehn, vierundzwanzig Soldaten wurden schon alleine Kannonen gespart. Und dann kam dazu noch Kommandogerät, da hatten wir auch pfiffige Schüler von uns, die waren am Kommandogerät, da waren auch mindestens dreie, ich weiss es heute nicht mehr so genau, jeden [unclear] und Funkmessgerät. Und dann hier die Umwertung, wo wir nur Luftwaffenhelfer waren, da waren ja früher Soldaten. Also ich hatte alleine, ich war mal eine Zeitlang [unclear] Unteroffizier der, des Befehlsgewalt hatte über die Umwertung, der musste zum Lehrgang, da muss ja einer Stellvertreter sein und da hatt der Hauptmann bestimmt das war ich. Und in der Zeit ist das passiert mit dem Sperrfeuer und da musste ich natürlich bestraft werden, da kam ich zur zbV Batterie [laughs] das ist so kleine Erinnerung, da wurde ich bestraft. Na ja aber schon, das sind dann schon also vierundzwanzig, ich möchte mal sagen schon fast dreissig Soldaten wurden da schon gespart an einer Flakstellung, und wir waren ja ungefähr dreissig Luftwaffenhelfer.
HZ: Sind da auch welche von denen die sie gekannt haben, sind da auch welche gefallen?
HK: Neh.
HZ: Neh.
HK: Also wir haben zwar einen Bombenangriff mitgemacht und zwar in Kaufungen, da wo des grosse Lager von Panzern und LKWs war von der Deutschen Industrie, da ist genau zwischen der Flak, zwischen der Geschützstellung und zwischen der Befehlsstelle, da waren ungefähr, hundert, hundertfuffzig meter dazwischen und genau da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich runter [unclear], genau dazwischen, und da hatt einer noch hier, am Fuss hier, irgendwie‘n Stein oder was da, kam ins Lazzaret hatte eine Verse kaputt. Das war das einzige was ich erlebt habe. Aber hier vorne, in der [unclear] hier, wenn sie hier ein Stückchen runtergehen, zum Auestadion, da ist, geht’s links die Ludwig-Mond-Strasse hoch und das war früher alles freies Feld und da stand eine Flakstellung, die haben viele Tote gehabt da. Da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich über die Flakstellung weg, aber wie viel das wurde damals nicht bekannt gegeben. Da waren also mehrere Schüler die sind dann umgekommen aber zahlmässig waren es verhältnissmässig wenig, dass muss ich schon sagen. Die haben schon ein Bisschen auf uns jungen, junge Burschen so’n bisschen Mitleid gehabt oder so. Auch die Offiziere, das waren alles Familienväter und so. Unser Batterieschef der war von Beruf Mattestudienrat und der sah nun die armen Jungen da und hatte vielleicht selber auch Kinder zuhause und so. Also die haben uns schon so’n bisschen [unclear], das haben wir damals nicht so gemerkt, das haben wir nur dann später so erzählt wenn wir mal zusammen waren, na ja.
HZ: Gut.
HK: Weiss nicht ob ich ihnen viel dienen konnte mit dem, also, eh.
HZ: Des ist, des is ok, da bedanke ich mich. Weil das geht ja um ihre Erinnerungen, das geht ja net da drum.
HK: Ja, sicher, ich meine, Politik wurde damals ja ausgeschlossen, Politik gab’s die ganze Woche Politik, das kannten wir ja net gar net, also wenn da einer was von Politik erzählte wusste da einer gar nix mehr da anzufangen. Was Hitler sagte das war Evangelium. Und ich kann mich erinnern, das war wo wir am Edersee waren, sind, Weihnachten, ja hatten wir keinen Ausgang, mussten wir da bleiben Weihnachten, Weihnachten ‚44, ah da gab’s da ein Festessen, da gab’s net nur Sauerkraut und Pellkartoffeln, das gab’s fünf mal in der Woche, da gab’s dann zu Weihnachten ein Stückchen Fleisch ob das nun vom Hund war oder vom das wusste kein Mensch. Und da sassen wir in der Kantine und da sagte dann der Hautpmann: ‚Na, nun wollen wir mal ein Weihnachtslied singen‘. Da waren wir alle so traurig, wir Jungen, kriegte keiner einen Ton raus und einer nach‘m anderen ging dann raus und ich musste dann auch raus weil Tränen kamen und dann standen im Saal und heulten aber wie, ein Geschluchze und so. Also man merkte dann doch diese innere Ergriffenheit unter uns Schülern, wir waren net alle so, und dann mussten wir dann die Reden von Goebbels glaub ich oder wer das war, mussten wir dann anhören. Also es war schon manchmal schwierig, das kann ich ihnen sagen. Genau wie ich mal als Pimpf, wie war denn das, ich war hier auch, Hitlerjunge net zuerst waren es Pimpfe neh, also Jungvolk hiess das, mit zehn Jahren und so, da kriegtense die Uniform da waren wir ganz stolz drauf. Und dann war, wie war denn das eigentlich, jetzt weiss ich nicht zu welchem Anlass, denn da musste ich in der Stadthalle auf der Bühne an der Fahne stehen und vor uns dann, war das nach dem ersten Angriff auf Kassel glaub ich, das war ‚42, was, so war das, da kam der Joseph Goebbels und hat’ne Rede gehalten, da [unclear] so fünf, sechs Meter hinter’m Joseph gestanden, mit der Fahne neh, da konnte sie ja nix ändern dran, sie wurden einfach bestimmt, konnte sie sich net wehren oder so, das weiss ich immer noch so und da hat unsere Herzen werden starker und was er da alles gebrüllt hat, das ist zu erinnern. Genau wie einmal, das war glaub ich zum Reichskriegertag, ‚39, da war ich grade so‘m Pimpf, da war der Hitler hier in Kassel, zum Reichskriegertag, das mus ‚39, nah sie konn’s ja besser recherchieren, ich weiss nicht mehr wann das war, und da waren wir an der schönen Aussicht und da sollten wir absperren und, aber die Leute haben uns kleinen Jungen ja weggedrängt. Da bin ich hinten auf die Mauer die ja heute noch da ist und hab von oben geguckt und ich sag immer heute noch zu den Jungen, da hat mich der Hitler begrüsst, da guckte er nämlich grade dahin, machte immer so net, und grade da in dem Moment wo er zu mir guckt, da winkte er, da sag ich er hat mir zugeguckt [laughs] [unclear] das wissen meine Enkel sogar [laughs] [unclear]. Ja, Hitler, das ist so, für meinen Begriff, war das schon ein grosser Stratege und ein unheimlich schlauer Mensch, ganz egal was er nun gemacht hat, das Ergebniss war ja schlecht, aber wie er das gemacht hat, es gibt in der ganzen Geschichte, sie kennen die Geschichte besser, so Napoleon oder, ganzen Kriegen so, wie der Cäsar und so, das waren Strategen neh, oder hier, Dschingis Khan und so, wenn man sich vorstellt, in der Zeit, die kommen von der Mongolei mit Pferden und was weiss ich alle hierher, und beherschen ganze Riesenreiche hier. Also das ist schon eine gewaltige Sache und in diese Kategorie gehört meiner Meinung auch der Hitler wenn auch jetzt negativ seine Taten waren, aber er war Stratege, er hat bestimmt was jetzt gemacht wurde und die ganzen Generäle, die Feldmarschälle mussten das machen was er wollte. Das ist gar nicht so einfach sich das vorzustellen. Ich will den net in Schutz nehmen, net dasse denken ich wär ein alter Nazi oder so neh [laughs]. Aber er war wirklich und mein Vater der war jawohl, gut ich wusste nur, er hat jetzt eine Doktorarbeit gemacht über den Alten Fritze da und den Schlesigen Kriege da, und was er verehrt hat, das weiss ich von meiner Mutter her, Napoleon. Das war für ihn ein Riesenstratege wohl. Da hing sogar im Flur ein Riesengemälde von Napoleon, da kann ich mich als Kind da noch erinnern. Also es gab in der Welt mal so bestimmte Typen die übernormal strategisch begabt waren, das wissen sie besser, [unclear] sowas hier dazu erzählen [laughs] aber das ist meine Empfindung hier, meine Empfindung.
HZ: Gut, dann bedanke ich mich jetzt auch [unclear] mal.
HK: Ja, ich hoffe das.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Helmut Köhler
Description
An account of the resource
Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer. He provides a first-hand account of two attacks on Kassel, the first on the 22 October 1943 and the second in March 1944. He describes his time spent inside the air-raid shelter; how he helped extinguish fires; the destruction of schools and the entire old town being razed to the ground. He also discusses everyday life in an anti-aircraft unit, the process of matching skills to roles, training, and anti-aircraft fire. He mentions being posted to a special deployment unit as a punishment for noncompliance, following which he was re-trained on quadruplet anti-aircraft guns at the Eder dam. He briefly talks about the breaching of the Eder dam and the ensuing flood wave. Helmut Köhler recalls Russian and French prisoners of war manning flak batteries. He describes an unexploded bomb in his house on new year’s eve 1944. He stresses that Luftwaffenhelfer freed up soldiers for combat roles and highlights how the replacement ratio was almost 1:1. He mentions his first encounter with American troops in Gudensberg at the end of the war.
Creator
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Harry Ziegler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:59:29 audio recording
Language
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deu
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKohlerH170303
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Kassel
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Gudensberg
Germany
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Temporal Coverage
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1943-10-22
1944-03
1944-12
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
childhood in wartime
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
firefighting
Luftwaffenhelfer
prisoner of war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/162/2012/ADraegertH180209.1.mp3
7d2224183e7f8aade3fac374613aa495
Dublin Core
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Title
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Draegert, Hubert
H Draegert
Description
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One oral history interview with Hubert Draegert, who lived in Berlin and was later evacuated near Wroclaw.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-02-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Draeger, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PS: Bevor wir anfangen, bitte ich Sie folgende Fragen zu beantworten, damit wir sicher sind, dass dieses Interview nach Ihren Wünschen sowie den Bedingungen unserer Sponsoren gemäß registriert wird. Sind Sie damit einverstanden, dass dieses Interview als eine öffentlich zugängliche Quelle aufbewahrt, die für Forschung, Erziehung, online und in Ausstellungen verwendet werden kann? Ja oder nein?
HD: Ja.
PS: Gut. Das dieses Interview unter einer nichtkommerziellen Creative Commons Attributionslizenz, die mit den Buchstaben CC-BY-NC das bedeutet das sie nicht für kommerzielle Zwecke benutzt werden darf, öffentlich zugänglich gemacht wird? Ja oder nein?
HD: Ja.
PS: Danke. Das dieses Interview an sie zurückzuführen ist? Ja oder nein?
HD: Was heisst zurückführen?
PS: Ja, dass Sie der Author.
HD: Ach natürlich, ja, klar, wer sonst. Ja.
PS: Und dann noch, sind Sie bereit, der Universität das Copyright Ihres Beitrags zur Verfügung zu stellen, damit es zu jedem Zweck verwendet wird, aber dass das Ihr moralisches Recht, als Urheber des Interviews nicht in Betracht nehmen wird nach dem Copyright, Design und Patents Act vom Jahr 1988 gemäß, damit Sie identifiziert werden.
HD: Ja.
PS: Ja?
HD: Ja.
PS: Danke. Jetzt, also, dieses Interview wird für das International Bomber Command Digital Archive durchgeführt. Der Interviewer ist Peter Schulze, der Befragte ist Herr Hubert Draegert. Heute ist der 9 Februar 2018. Ihr Interview wird Teil des International Bomber Command Digital Archive, das bei der Universität Lincoln untergebracht und vom Heritage Lottery Fund finanziert wird. Also, also, lieber Herr Draegert, konnen Sie mir erstmal was von Ihren, von Ihrem Haushalt erzählen, von Ihrer Familie, die, sagen wir, die ersten Erinnerungen die Sie haben.
HD: Also, die ersten Erinnerungen sind im Grunde genommen 1941, als mein Vater, der war da noch nicht Soldat, der wurde erst 1942, als mein Vater mit mir in die Innenstadt, also in die Mitte Berlins ging, um uns anzuschauen wie die Staatsoper Unter den Linden abbrannte oder die war getroffen. Die Staatsoper war eines der ersten Gebaüde mit die in Berlin getroffen wurde und weil mein Vater Musikliebhaber war, hatte der natürlich, jetzt ist er auf die Idee gekommen, dass müssen wir uns angucken. Mal Zwischenfrage, nehmen Sie das jetzt irgendwie auf oder schreiben Sie mit?
PS: Nein, nein, es wird aufgenommen.
HD: Wird aufgenommen, also kann ich flüssig reden.
PS: Ja, ich wollte noch eine Sache hinzufügen.
HD: Bitte.
PS: Wenn sie hören dass ich schweige, das Wichtige ist dass man Ihre Stimme hört und nicht meine.
HD: Aha.
PS: Also, lassen Sie ruhig die Erinnerungen empor.
HD: Fließen, ja. Ok. Also zurück, wir haben besichtigt 1941 den, praktisch die Zerstörung der Staatsoper Unter Den Linden aber das war zu der Zeit noch ein aussergewöhnliches Ereignis, so dass also viele Berliner sich diese Kriegschäden ansehen. Ich erinnere auch einen weiteren Bombenschaden in Kreuzberg, wo mein Vater auch noch mit mir mal hinging, wo ein Eckhaus getroffen wurde und viele Berliner nun also staunten über diese Schäden. Das hat sich natürlich mit der Zeit gegeben als dann die Zerstörung immer mehr Überhand nahm, und das also, sagen wir mal, zum täglichen Lebensablauf gehörte. Die Staatsoper ist insofern interessant, weil Hermann Göring, der damalige Chef der Deutschen Luftwaffe und Chef hier in Berlin, der Ministerpresident des Staates Preußen nun alles dransetzte um dieses Opernhaus, das seiner Aufsicht unterstand, sofort wieder aufzubauen und nun ist was besonderes passiert dass, trotz des Krieges, haben die Nazionalsozialisten alles dran gesetzt dieses Opernhaus wieder aufzubauen, es wurde 1942 in einem Gewaltakt wieder fertiggestellt. Ich erzähl das deswegen weil mein Vater, wie eingangs gesagt, Opernliebhaber mich nun in meine erste Oper schleppte. Das muss also praktisch 1942 gewesen sein, ich war sechs Jahre alt. Ich kann mich an Inhalt wenig erinnern aber ich rieche noch heute den frischen Putz in dem Opernhaus und die Deckengemälde waren auch nicht komplett ausgeführt, es roch alles nach frischem Mörtel, nach frischer Renovierung. Das Ende dieser Oper geschah dann spätestens 1944, wurde sie wieder getroffen und am 3 Februar 1945 war ja der größte Angriff der glaub ich jemals auf Berlin geflogen wurde, wo die ganze Innenstadt in Schutt und Asche ging, zum Beispiel das Berliner Schloss, das jetzt wieder aufgebaut wird, allerdings nur in den aüßeren Formen, aber als grosses Museum eines Tages in Berlin sicherlich ein Höhepunkt darstellt, das war der schlimmste Angriff und auch an den habe ich noch Erinnerungen. Jetzt mache ich erstmal ein Punkt.
PS: ich wollte Sie zurückbringen,
HD: Ja?
PS: Wollten Sie jetzt etwas schon hinzufügen?
HD: Neh, sagen Sie mal jetzt.
PS: Ich wollte Sie Moment noch zurückbringen zu ihrer Familie. Ob Sie mir ein Bißchen erzählen konnen, wo Sie geboren sind, in welchen, in welcher Umgebung Sie aufgewachsen sind und, Vater, Mutter, Geschwister?
HD: Ja, sage ich ganz gerne. Also, ich bin geboren 1936, in Berlin. Wir wohnten im Norden Berlins, im Afrikanischen Viertel, wir hatten eine Dreizimmerwohnung, mein Vater war, [unclear] man sagte damals, Bankbeamte, er lernte in einem Jüdischen Bankhaus in Berlin und insofern war er eigentlich so geprägt dass er nicht in der NSDAP drin war, sondern eben durch diese, durch seine Tätigkeit offensichtlich politisch ein wenig informierter war als manch ein anderer aber er musste dann in ein anderes Bankhaus wiel das Jüdische Bankhaus ja aufgelöst wurde. Wir, mein Bruder ist 1928 geboren, der ist 1944 wurde der Luftwaffenhelfer, dass heisst also mit sechzehn Jahren, fufzehn Jahren glaub ich, wurde der zur Flak eingezogen in Berlin, dass heisst die ganze Klasse wurde eingezogen und ging mit dem Lehrer in eine Geschützbatterie in Berlin-Tegel, wo ich ihn dann als Kind auch besuchte. Meine Mutter war Hausfrau und wir lebten relativ friedlich bis 1943, wo mein Vater eingezogen wurde. Mein Vater ist, hat den Krieg überlebt, er sass in Dänemark und ist dort von den Britischen Truppen in Gefangenschaft genommen worden und hatt seine Kriegsgefangenschaft in England erlebt, in Leeds. Und es gibt die schöne Geschichte von dem Englischen Verhöroffizier der ihn fragte: ‘Sagen Sie mal, Herr Draegert, haben Sie Kinder?’, ‘Ja’, ‘Wie viel?’, ‘Zwei’, ‘Geboren wann?’, ‘1928 und 1936’, Und da sagte er mit einem lächelnden Blick, so erzählte es mein Vater immer: ‘Aha, Herr Draegert, dann haben Sie ein Kind für den Führer gezeugt’. Damit war also klar das [laughs], aber wie gesagt, das Ganze war irgendwo so, dass er eigentlich, als er 1947 nach Berlin zurückkam, gesund aussah, also das ganze gegentiel von dem was man so sah, wenn die armen Kriegsgefangenen aus den östlichen Landern zurückkamen, also sprich Sowjetunion. Ja, mein Bruder, wiegesagt, im, also Luftwaffenhelfer, unsere Wohnung ist nur leicht beschädigt worden, dass hiesst bei den ersten Luftangriffen sind alle Fensterschieben raussgeflogen und ich erinnere noch wie ganze Kolonnen von Glassfirmen bei uns um das Haus sich aufstellten, das war so ein langer Siedlungsblock und es wurden die Scheiben wieder eingesetzt, man wunderte sich warscheinlich ein bisschen, wo man die Hoffnung her nahm, das nur die neuen Scheiben das überleben wurden, es dauerte auch gar nicht lange, war der nächste Angriff da flogen die Scheiben wieder raus und meine Eltern hatten da irgendeinen Herrn in der Familie der uns dann die Fenster mit Pappe oder mit Brettern vernagelte. Es musste ja auch, und das ist meine Kindheitserinnerung, immer scharf drauf geachtet werden, das die Verdunkelung eingehalten wurde, dass heisst wir hatten vor allen Fenstern Rolleaux aus schwarzer Pappe, die abends rechzeitig runtergemacht werden mussten, damit die feindlichen Flieger kein Licht sehen sollten. Es passierte natürlich, dass meine Mutter mit mir irgendwann unterwegs war, ausserhalb Berlins und wir vergessen hatten im Badezimmer das Licht zu löschen, dass heisst in dem Riesenblock war ein Badezimmer, Fenster waren ja relativ klein, was nun nachts hell leuchtete und gross, grosser Ärger, der Blockwart machte meiner Mutter natürlich große Vorwürfe, sowas darf nicht passieren und man hat dann aus der über uns liegenden Wohnung versucht, mit einen langen Teppich es aussen abzudunklen, damit also der Lichtschien die Flieger nicht also auf eine Spur lockt. Das sind so Sachen die ich als Kind immer erlebt habe, andererseits war auf dem Hausflur war immer, standen immer Wassereimer und Beutel mit Sand und die sogenannte Feuerpatsche, ein Begriff der damals neu war, dass heisst irgend einen Stiel mit einen Lappen an und der sollte dann in den Eimer getunkt werden um das möglicherweise entstehende Feuer auszuschlagen, das haben wir nie benutzen brauchen, wir hatten nur eine einzige Stabbrandbombe, die oben durch die Wohnung durchging, das war so eine rechteckige mit einen Eisenkern, die waren uns damals sehr vertraut und wir Jungs sammelten auch Bombensplitter, unter anderem auch diese Eisenkerne. Und diese Bombe schlug auch durch unsere Decke, guckte bei uns oben in der Decke raus und ein behertzter Mann versuchte sie von oben rauszuziehen, übersah dabei dass ein Brand, ein Explosiv-stoff drin war, dass heisst der Mann verblutete in dem Moment und das war eigentlich so die schrecklichste Erinnerung die so unmittelbar ich erlebt habe. Aber ein Feuer enstand nicht, im Endeffekt ist also die Wohnung erhalten geblieben nur durch den zunehmenden Andrang der Bombenangriffe auf Berlin hiess es ja, Müttern mit Kindern, wenn sie nicht gerade in der Produktion wichtig waren, sollten evakuiert werden, dass heisst aufs Land. Und wir hatten dann die Möglichkeit, nach Schlesien, in der Nähe von Breslau, einen Bauernhof zu finden, wo ein entfernter Onkel lebte, und der nahm uns auf und so habe ich, Ende ‘43 bis Ende ’44 in Schlesien gelebt als Kind, im Prinzip sehr friedlich denn man sagte immer, bis dahin kommen die Engländer nicht, oder die Amerikaner. Und so war es wohl auch, es waren nur eigentlich wenige Bombenangriffe auf Breslau und man wusste auch nicht genau oder ich kann es heute nicht sagen, ob es nicht auch Russische Angriffe waren. Jedenfalls man war dort sicher, man lebte dort im Grunde genommen in Frieden und wir fuhren nur ’44, Ende ’44 nach Berlin zurück, um immer mahl zu gucken, steht die Wohnung noch? Es war ja nicht so, dass man immer telefonieren konnte und mit den Nachbarn sprechen konnte, das ging ja alles gar nicht so einfach. Also schauten wir uns die Wohnung an, die Wohnung war belegt mit anderen ausgebombten Menschen, was auch wieder zu Konflikten führten, weil meine Mutter natürlich meinte: ‘Na, wie leben die sich den hier in unserer Wohnung aus?’ undsoweiter. Aber in dem Moment wo wir Weihnachten ’44 hier in Berlin verlebten, mein Vater war natürlich in Dänemark, sass der fest an der Front, da brachen die Nachrichten doch rein oder man hörte ja auch den Englischen Sender, das machte mein Bruder mal, als Luftwaffenhelfer, der wusste damit umzugeben, [mimics the first notes of Beethoven’s 5 Symphony], also BBC und wir wussten also, oder mein Bruder wusste, dass die Russen also eine Offensive gestartet haben von der Weichsel bis an die Oder, also auf den Marsch waren. Am 16 Januar kamen sie ja dann an der Oder an, das heisst also wir kamen nicht mehr zurück nach Schlesien, meine Mutter versuchte es noch, wurde aber in Breslau von Deutschen Soldaten aufgegriffen, die ihr sagten: ‘Na, sagense mal, junge Frau, wo wollense denn hin?’, na dann sagte sie: ‘Na, ich will nach in das, dieses Dorf wo wir waren, in Juliusburg’. Da sagte sie: ‘Sie sind wohl verrückt, da sind die Russen schon’. Also kam sie wieder zurück, konnte sogar mit den Eisenbahnzug fahren, musste nicht also trekken, beziehungsweise laufen, so wie di anderen Flüchtlinge, diese schreckliche Zeit, weil’s ja auch einer der härtesten Winter damals war, im Januar, so dass sie, wir also hier in Berlin blieben, wir hatten alle unsere schönen Sachen, was man so auch hat, Silber und Besteck und Bettwäsche, das hatten wir alles nach Schlesien verlagert um es hier vor dem Bomben zu sichern aber nun war’s weg und nun, die Wohnung hatt’s überstanden aber di Sachen waren weg. So, nun waren wir wieder in Berlin und, ja, dann kam eben die Zeit wo die Bombenangriffe ja doch immer stärker wurden, 3 Februar wie gesagt ’45, einer der schwersten Angriffe. Am 26 Februar hatte ich Geburtstag, da wurde ich neun, war wieder ein schwerer Angriff, ist da als glaub ich Kreuzberg untergegangen. Des schlimme war, das sprach sich auch rum, das die Phosphorbomben die Menschen wenn sie der Phosphor sie traff, dann brannte es auf der Haut, dann ging die zum Teil in die Löschteiche, es gab so Löschteiche in Berlin, oder überhaupt, um Löschwasser für den Brand zu haben, dann tauchten die Menschen unter in diesem Wasser, und wenn sie rauskamen, brannten sie wieder, also das war eine ganz ganz fürchterliche Geschichte diese Phosphorbomben. Wir selber haben hier in unmittelbarer Nähe bei uns einmal eine Luftmine erlebt wo wir also richtig, von man so vom, von der Sitzgelegenheit so ein bisschen hochging, wo der Kalk so aus der, aus dem verstärkten Luftschutzkeller rieselte. Und als Kind hatte man natürlich Angst und die Mutter war bemüht uns zu schützen und wir hatten hier in der Umgebung in einem grossen Strassenbahnhof einen Tiefbunker für Mutter und Kind. Und dann hatten wir also eine Zeit wo wir abends so gegen acht oder weiss ich nicht, mit seinem Köfferchen halben Kilometer liefen, um in diesen Bunker einzukehren, Mutter und Kind und da konnte man schlafen und dann hörte man das auch nicht krachen aber es war immer dieses, diese Neugierde beziehungsweise die Angst wenn man um die letzte Ecke kommt [laughs] steht das Haus noch oder steht es nicht? Wie mann das so in anderen Sachen überlebt hat, ich habe dann auch gesehen, als diese Riesenluftmine die da bei uns runterging, das da hiess immer, da sind achtig Menschen ums Leben gekommen. Die ist so seitlich gegen die Mauer unten wohl eingeschlagen so dass sie den ganzen Sand, der dort als Schutzwall errichtet wurde, zur Seite und dann ist das Haus in sich zusammengestürtzt, einschliesslich Luftschutzkeller und daher diese hohe Anzahl von Toten. Ja, das sind so diese Dinge die im Augenblick, vielleicht machen wir hier mal eine Sekunde Pause und Sie fragen weiter.
PS: Ja, ich wollte Sie zum Beispiel, wir werden ein bisschen dann zurück kommen auf das was Sie mir jetzt kürzlich erzählt haben. Ich wollte wieder noch zurück gehen, zum Beispiel,
HD: Ja?
PS: Sie sagten Sie sind im Afrikaviertel.
HD: Afrikanisches Viertel. Ja?
PS: Können Sie mir ein bisschen erzählen, warum das eben so, diesen Namen trägt, trug und wie das Leben in dem Viertel war?
HD: Also, das ist eine Gegend im Nord-westen Berlins, das ist in den Zwanziger Jahren, Ende Zwanzig, Anfang Dreissig, gebaut worden im Rahmen, man würde heute sagen, sozialer Wohnungsbau, also ein Grosssiedlungsbau und es gab einen berühmten Architekten, dessen Namen heute noch in Berlin eine Rolle spielt, Bruno Taut, die also, Taut, T, A, U, T, die also Siedlungsbauten errichtet hatten, und meine Eltern konnten also 1931 eine frische Wohnung beziehen, erst in der Afrikanischen Strasse, so halt, die heisst heute noch so, und dann sind wir umgezogen in die Togostrasse. Und warum Afrikanisches Viertel? Sie wissen dass Deutschland, oder das Deutsche Reich eigentlich das letzte Land war, was so ein bisschen Kolonialbesitz auch haben wollte, der Deutsche Kaiser und die Deutschen Kolonien war Deutsch-Südwest, Deutsch-Ostafrika, Kamerun und Togo. Und nach diesen ist um die Jahrhundertwende die Gegend hier benannt worden also die Togostrasse, die Swapokmuder, die Windhuker, Transvaal, ach was noch? Wis ich nicht, also jedenfalls, und daher der Begriff Afrikanisches Viertel. Was im Augenblick ein bisschen hier politisch umstritten ist weil, vielleicht wissen Sie es am [unclear], weil es Forderungen gibt bezüglich [clears throat] der Hereros die damals von den Deutschen Kolonialtruppen da vernichtet worden sind, man spricht so von einem ersten Genozid, den es damals gegeben hat und es gibt also jetzt Forderungen, schon seit Jahren immer an die Bundesrepublik hinsichtlich der Entschädigung und in dem Zusammenhang kommt also auch die Frage auf ob, zum Beispiel die Petersallee in Berlin oder der Nachtigalplatz oder die Lüderitzstrasse, das sind alles Begriffe aus der Afrikanischen Kolonialzeit, unbenannt werden sollen in Menschen die also in Afrika eine Rolle gespielt haben. Soweit also Afrikanisches Viertel. Die Gegend selber ist sehr schön und ist auch heute noch schön und dabei ist ein grosser Volkspark, der Volkspark Rehberge. Also wir hatten dort eigentlich eine schöne oder wunderbare Umgebung, wir waren nicht so in der Stadt drin, sie müssen sich also nicht vorstellen, mit Hinterhaüsern oder dergleichen oder enge Wohnbebauung, sondern Ziel war damals sozialer Wohnungsbau: Licht, Luft und Sonne. Punkt.
PS: Wissen Sie überhaupt, wissen Sie ob es zu der Zeit, ehemalige, sagen wir, Kolonialafrikaner im Afrikaviertel lebten, ob also Herero oder andere da lebten oder ob das nur ernannt worden ist aus kolonialen.
HD: Nein. Nur in Erinnerung an das Kolonialreich, ich habe da zu der Zeit keinen farbigen Menschen gesehen, das einzige was man mal als Kind sah das war der berühmte Sarotti-Mohr, wissen Sie was’n Mohr ist, sagt Ihnen das was?
PS: Ja.
HD: Also, der Sarotti-Mohr, sa heisst also das Label der Schokoladenfirma und das haben sie glaub ich heute noch aber es ist auch umstritten und da gibt’s in Berlin die Mohrenstrasse aber das geht auf die Preussische Geschichte zuruck. Man wollte wohl um die Jahrhundertwende hier der, es gibt einen Zoomenschen, Zoo Erfinder in Hamburg, Herr Hagenbeck, der wollte hier in Berlin so einen, wie soll ich sagen, so eine Art, grossen Zoo, afrikanisches Leben hierherbringen, mit wilden Tieren, mit Elefanten undsoweiter, aber durch den Ersten Weltkrieg ist es nichts geworden und dann ist ja Deutschland auch die Kolonien losgeworden im Versailler Vertrag und ich glaube England und Frankreich sind dann an die Stelle getreten.
PS: Jetzt Moment zurück zu Ihrer familie.
HD: Ja.
PS: Wie war Ihre Wahrnehmung des Nationalsozialismus in der Familie? Sprachen Ihre, also sprach man darüber? Als kleines Kind hörten Sie dass Ihre Eltern darüber diskutierten und sprachen? Wie war also die, sagen wir, die Atmosphäre in der Familie?
HD: Also die Atmosphäre war so wie ich ja Eingangs schon schilderte, mein Vater war nur durch seine Berufstätigkeit nicht parteilich, also sagen wir mal, im weitesten Sinne ein Nazi, sondern der hat die Sache sehr nüchtern gesehen und ich kann mich erinnern immer, das wenn der Grossvater auch kam, dass dann die Männer vor dem Radio auch standen während des Krieges und sagen wir mal den Frontverlauf verfolgten. Ich glaub auch sogar dass wir eine Landkarte hatten wo, mit bestimmten Nadeln mit roten Punkten oder weiss ich wie, der Frontverlauf skizziert wurde. Und ich werde immer einen Satz nicht los den mein Vater wohl sagte: ‘Wir verlieren den Krieg’ und vielleicht auf die Frage ‘Warum?’, ‘Wir haben kein Öl’, oder ‘es liegt am Öl’. Das ist mir erst im Nachhinein natürlich klar geworden warum dann die Wehrmacht unbedingt also bis zum Kaukasus vordringen wollte oder bis zu den Ölfeldern, das war mir damals als Kind natürlich nicht so klar, was das zu bedeuten hatte aber so ist die Atmosphäre ungefähr gewesen. Mein anderer Onkel erzählte immer, davon des, der war im Geschaftsleben hier tätig, der ist nicht eingezogen worden weil man ihn brauchte und der hatte wohl Verbindung zu Wehrmachtsangehörigen und der horte mal irgendwie mal eine Geschichte wo dann doch davon die Rede war es müsse also Lager geben in Deutschland wo die Menschen also drangsaliert wurden, zum Beispiel die Juden, hier in Berlin und also, warscheinlich war Auschwitz gemeint oder Birkenau und jedenfalls beim Bier ist dann wohl mal ein Wort gefallen und er erzählte dann auch in der Familie und das habe ich mitgekriegt, das er Schwierigkeiten kriegte weil irgendeiner gesagt hatt: ‘Na, Herr Draegert, sie erzählen da aber Greuelmarchen. Sowas gibt es nicht’. Und der hat wohl lange ringen müssen aber weil er wichtig war, der war Leiter eines Betriebes hier in Berlin, ist er irgendwie mit einem blauen Auge davongekommen und als man ihn dann, und das war ganz spannend eigentlich, das habe ich als Kind natürlich dann bewusst mitgekriegt, als man ihn dann vorlud, jetzt zu einem Büro der Gestapo 1944, ist er am selben Abend am Kaiserdamm, wo er wohnte, ausgebombt worden, dass heisst also, die Bombe schlug so ein dass sie die Vorderfront des Hauses wegriss und wenn man auf dem Kaiserdamm stand, dann konnte man sogar noch die Lampe hängen sehen, und die hängt jetzt heute noch bei mir, jetzt konnte man sagte, da hatt er sich eine schöne Geschichte ausgedacht, nein, die stimmt aber wirklich. Aber der Witz, oder sagen wir man, das Glück für ihn war, dass er nun bei dem angegebenen Termin sagen konnte: ‘Meine Herren, ich bin heute ausgebombt, ich muss mich erstmal um meine Sachen kümmern’. Und da hat man ihn praktisch ziehen lassen, und er ist mit einem blauen Auge davongekommen. Also will sagen, und der dritte Onkel, der sass in Russland, der war dort und weil er früher Bankbeamter war, musste er da irgendwie auch so einen Betrieb leiten oder so, der ist aber durch den Rückmarsch so gekommen dass er in Liepzig in Amerikanischer Gefangenschaft geriet und dadurch auch den Krieg überlebt hat und glücklich war das er nicht in Russische denn das hätte anders ausgehen können, nicht, der war in Berdytschiw in der Ukraine, und da weiss man nicht wie, wie mann dann mit ihm umgegangen wäre. Also, will damit sagen, es war eigentlich eine sehr entspannte Atmosphäre, ich kenne keinen bei uns in der Familie der also mit’na SA Uniform oder sowas rumrannte. Lediglich, ach so, das muss man vielleicht sagen, mein Vater der war im Betrieb, die hatten hier so eine Art Betriebsorganisation, ich weiss nicht mehr wie das hiess, jedenfalls so wie in der DDR gab es so eine Art Werkschutz, und die hatten eine Uniform, und diese Uniform hängt bei uns immer im Schrank. Und nun war mein Vater längst Soldat, er stand also an der Küste Dänemarks und am Skagerrak und gab, hat nie in seinem Leben einen Schuss ab, also der hat Schwein gehabt, er war bei der Kriegsmarine und diese Uniform hängt nun in unserm Schrank und als nun die Russen einzogen in Berlin und man ja nicht sicher war dass die also Wohnung für Wohnung durchsuchten und sagen wir mal nach irgendwelchen Schätzen suchten, wusste man schon, das sprach sich schnell um, wenn die so eine Uniform sehen, dann denken die, Uniform ist Uniform, dann wird derjenige auf der Stelle erschossen. Und meine Mutter nahm rechtzeitig die Uniform, rollte sie zusammen und vesteckte sie im Keller unter den Kohlen, wir hatten noch Ofenheizung, und der Keller war mit Briquettes voll, und da wurden diese militärischen Sachen versteckt. Auch ein Hitler Bild kann ich mich nicht erinnern hatten wir nicht zu hängen, obwohl ich das natürlich von der Schule her kannte, da hingen natürlich überall die Bilder. Also dieses, zu dem Thema Familie. Also Punkt an der Stelle und Sie fragen vielleicht von derweise weiter.
PS: Ja, ich muss sagen, Ich wäre sehr daran interessiert mehr über, seis über ihren Bruder bei der Flak zu hören,
HD: Ja.
PS: Und spater auch über ihren Vater, auch das Thema der Gefangenschaft in Leeds.
HD: England, in Leeds, ja. Also, mein Bruder, wie gesagt, war Luftwaffenhelfer, der ist also, mit fünfzehn, das muss ja ’43 gewesen sein, ’43, wurden die eingezogen, der kam dann plötzlich mit einer Luftwaffenuniform die ihm etwas zu gross schien, also ein, eigentlich ein jämmerliches Bild. Die ganze Klasse ging also aus der Schule raus, wurde in einen anderen Stadtteil, hier in Berlin Tegel, verlagert, dort war eine sogenannte Batterie, und da standen also Luftabwehrgeschütze, Flak nannte man das damals, und auch das Kaliber weiss ich natürlich heute noch, vieles vergisst man aber so’ne Dinger hat man natürlich sich gemerkt, Kaliber 10,5. Und mein Bruder war dann eingeteilt für das sogenannte Funkmessgerät, FuMG wurde das damals abgekürtzt und ich vermute das es so eine Art Vorlaüfer des Radars gewesen, der sass also in so einer Kombüse und hatt dann den Nachthimmel irgendwie beobachtet, heranfliegende Flugzeuge und die Ortung und die anderen Kameraden, die standen neben der Flak und mussten dann auf Grund seiner Anweisung oder Hinweise die Flak ausrichten und wenn dann die Flugzeuge nachts kamen, dann schossen sie also in den Himmel, da war ich natürlich nicht bei aber am Tage, als ich die Batterie besuchen durfte, da erinnere ich noch wie um das Kanonenrohr immer weisse Streifen gemacht wurden, das war also der sogenannte Abschuss. Bei meinem Bruder war es aber nur so, das der da [unclear], das der nun Funk hörte, weil Funkmann war er im Funkmessgerät, hörte der natürlich wie eingangs erwähnt, auch den Britischen Sender und dann den Soldatensender West, den Deutschen Sender. Dass heisst also der war für seine fufzehn, sechzehn, siebzehn Jahre sehr informiert und wenn er hier bei uns zu hause war, dann hörten wir natürlich auch über den Rundfunk hörte er dann und wir mussten immer ganz vorsichtig sein, das darf der Nachbar nicht mitkriegen, und dieses berühmte Trommelzeichen von BBC, das war ja etwas durchdringend, also da musste man schon genau hinhören, aber mein Bruder wusste also wie es geht. Aber dann kam die schreckliche Situation, dass die ganze Batterie anschliesslich Lehrerpersonal nach Jugoslawien versetzt wurde und dann haben wir abends, im Lichterschein der trüben Laterne, es war ja alles abgedunkelt, mussten wir nun zugucken wie die Jungs an einem langen Strick die Kannonen zogen auf Plattenwagen der Eisenbahn und dann fuhren die bei Nacht und Nebel also Richtung Jugoslawien ab und die Mutter weinten natürlich bitterlich und die Jungs machten auch keinen Eindruck dass man das Gefühl hatte, jetzt geht’s in ein grosses Abenteuer. Also mein Bruder war Flakhelfer in Jugoslawien und daher weiss ich nur, kannte ich nur den Begriff der Partisanen, dass heisst also die Jungs waren von Anfang an darauf getrimmt nur im Block zu gehen, nicht alleine, es bestand immer die Gefahr möglicherweise aus dem Hinterhalt irgendwie von Partisanen angegriffen werden. Mein Bruder kam auch zu uns nach Schlesien, also man muss sich vorstellen, so ein sechzehnjähriger, heute, ich weiss nicht wie ein Vater heute denkt, wenn so ein sechzehnjähriger also nur durch die Weltgeschichte fährt, ob er nicht Angst hat. Der fuhr dann durch Halb Europa mit den sogenannten Soldatenzügen oder Urlauberzügen und kam auch nach Schlesien und erzählte immer voller Interesse und wir lauschten natürlich wenn er, sagen wir mal, fuhr ohne Genehmigung, offensichtlich hatte er da den Mut gehabt, ich weiss es nicht mehr so, aber es muss so, leider ist er tot, er kann’s mir heute nicht mehr bestätigen, aber er war also in der Hinsicht mutig, das er sich dann im Kloh des Eisenbahnzuges einschloss wenn die sogenannten Kettenhunde, die habe ich auch erlebt als Kind wenn wir nach Schlesien fuhren, das sind immer Soldaten mit irgendwelchen Schildern auf der Brust, mit’m Stahlhelm auf und so, das müssen wohl SS-Leute gewesen sein, die die Züge kontrollierten und von irgenwelchen Männern natürlich wissen wollten, warum sind die im Zug, haben sie einen Urlaubsschein, müssen sie irgendwo hin oder wie geht das. Also mein Bruder war da sehr couragiert, der hatt das überlebt, kam dann zum Schluss noch nach Prag. Prag war ja so ziemlich lange noch von der Wehrmacht besetzt und der Krieg da war wohl relativ harmlos, hat sich aber dann doch nach Westen dann, also Richtung Deutschland wieder zurückziehen können oder mit der ganzen Truppe, hat es sogar bis Berlin geschafft und nun kommt das besondere: Ende Oktober endete seine Luftwaffenzeit und diese Jungs waren alle vorgesehen für den Offizierslehrgang. Und mein Bruder mit seinem Wissen wusste genau, also wir müssen sehen das wir überleben wie auch immer. Und ich weiss auch dass seine Kameraden zum Teil, da waren welche bei, die bis zum Schluss den Führer verteidigen wollten und die Klasse hatte grosse Verluste. Will sagen, mein Bruder war so pfiffig das er für zwei, drei Monate untertauchte, aber bevor es soweit war, kam sein Batteriechef, also ein Luftwaffenoffizier zu ihm, wieder auf ihn zu und sagte: “Draegert, Sie müssen sich jetzt für eine Einheit entscheiden, wo Sie hin wollen, als Offiziersanwärter. Wenn nicht, dann werden Sie entschieden’. Und wir werden nun dann nachhinein wissen landeten so ne Jungs bei der Waffen-SS, so mindest karteimässig. Und also er ist auf Grund dieser Empfählung dieses Offiziers hatt er sich für die sogenannten Lenkwaffen entschieden, was immer das sein mag, jedenfalls die Lenkwaffenabteilung lag in Giessen und das muss wohl so gewesen sein und so hatt’s mir mein Bruder bestätigt, das Schreiben ist entweder nie angekommen oder aber, und das war seine Vermutung, Giessen war bereits von den Amerikanern besetzt. Das heisst also dieses Thema hatte sich erledigt was aber noch lange nicht bedeutete, dass er jetzt hier in Berlin sicher war. Und ich weiss auch das Nachbarn nachfragten, warum ist Ihr Sohn nicht an der Front bei meiner Mutter, weil meine Mutter sehr sehr ängstlich war und mein Bruder tauchte auch nicht mehr bei uns auf, der hatte irgendwelche Hilfsdienste am Bahnhof mitgemacht, also Koffer schleppen und Betreuung von Flüchtlingen oder solche Geschichten, irgendwie hatte er es geschafft, bis zum Einmarsch der Russen. Und hatt überlebt und war ein ausgesprochen, wie soll ich sagen, konnte mir der Situation offensichtlich so umgehen, dass er in erster Linie an sich dachte und nicht an den Führer, wen ich dass so formulieren darf, er hat dann, das Glück oder Unglück die Russen suchten bei uns im Keller einen jungen Mann der gut sprechen konnte, artikulieren konnte. Das er nun Soldat war haben sie nicht gesehen seine Klammotten alle entsorgt mit seiner kurzen Hose oder wie auch immer und mein Bruder wurde dann von den Russen in Anspruch genommen und zog dann mit denen hier mit einen Lautsprecherwagen durch unsere Wohngegend und dann praktisch der erste Befehl über Rundfunk, nicht über Lautsprecher, ertelit wurde, dass heisst die Menschen wurden aufgefordert die Enttrümmerung vorzunehmen, die Strassen zu saübern undsoweiter und sofort. Meine Mutter hatte wahnsinnige Angst um ihn, dachte jetzt ist so in letzter Minute aber er hatt es überlebt und er hatt auf Grund dieser Erfahrung dann später sogar den Kontakt zum Rundfunk gesucht und hatt dann eine Lehre beim Berliner Rundfunk in Berlin angetreten, im Jahre 1948, ’47 glaub ich, ’47, ja. Ja also, das war mein Bruder. Jetzt wollten Sie noch wissen von meinem Vater.
PS: Ja, also eben, ein bisschen wenn Sie sich etwas erinnern an sagen wir seine Kriegserfahrung, die Zeit wo er eben in Dänemark war und auch etwas erzählt hatt von seiner Gefangenschaft in England.
HD: Ja. Also der sass in Friederickshavn, das ist oben die nördlichste Spitze von Dänemark, er war Marinesoldat ist aber nie auf einem Schiff gewesen, auf Grund seiner Tätigkeit als Bankbeamte war er, sass er, wie es so schon hiess, in der Schreibstube, hatte also immer einen Verwaltungsjob und erzählte halt von irgendwelchen Situationen wo er oben an der Küste stand, er musste auch mal Wache schieben aber da passierte wohl nicht viel. Und ich erinnere, oder wir erinnern uns noch an die Zeit als wir aus Dänemark Packete auch kriegten, dass heisst die Möglichkeit bestand wohl damals auch für die Soldaten dort regelrecht einzukaufen, ich kann mir vorstellen das der das beschlagnahmt wenn sowas hat und schickte uns nach Schlesien also irgendwelche Lebensmittel, das muss wohl prima haben wir ja nun mitgekriegt das in Sachsenhausen, im KZ, die Dänische Währung kopiert wurde und so, die Dänische Wirtschaft unterlaufen wurde, warscheinlich sind die Soldaten mit diesen Geld bezahlt worden und mein Vater lebte da im Prinzip sicher. Jetzt war der Krieg zu Ende, und wenn ich ihn richtig erinnere sind die Engländer gar nicht bis da oben gekommen sondern die Wehrmacht hat kapituliert und die sind mit Sack und Pack von Friedrichshafen durch Dänemark gerollt, mehr oder weniger unangefochten, Richtung Schleswig-Holstein und sind dort von den Briten in Empfang genommen worden, sind dann erstmal nach Belgien weitergeleitet worden. Dort in Belgien hatt er schlechte Erfahrungen gemacht, die Belgischen Menschen sind über die Deutschen Soldaten natürlich hergefallen, haben sie geschlagen und bespuckt, also sowas erzählte er, nun wenn man die Geschichte mit Belgien kennt hat man beinahe schon Verständnis dafür. Also jedenfalls Belgien war nicht gut und sie sind dann verladen worden über den Kanal nach England.0 Und dort war er also Prisoner of War und wieder landete er in einer Schreibstube und war zum Schluss irgendwie Stellvertretender Lagerleiter oder in sowas. Also dem ging’s da, unter allen Umständen, soweit menschlich einwandfrei, ich habe nie ein böses Wort gehört aus der Richtung. Er hatte auch Kontakt mit irgendeiner Englischen Familie in Leeds, aber was daraus geworden ist das weiss ich nicht. Jedenfalls 1947 kommt mein Vater mit einen Riesenseesack hier in Berlin-Grunewald an, mit einen grossen Flüchtlingstransport und die kam auch nicht mehr im Güterwagen an sondern die hatten dann schon ’47 fuhren sie also doch etwas menschlich mit normalen Personenwagen. Mein Vater stieg aus dem Zug, er sah gut genährt aus, also ein Bild des Friedens und für viele Leute doch überraschend, weil man ja die andere Seite kannte. Noch kam ja noch gar nicht so viel aus der Sowjetunion, die blieben ja bis ’55 da. Also, und mein Vater brachte nun Sachen mit aus England in dem Riesenseesack die wir natürlich heiss ersehnten, zum Beispiel Cadbury, seitdem weiss ich was Cadbury ist. Ich weiss nicht ob es heute noch gibt die Schockoladenfirma.
PS: Ja, ja.
HD: Und das zweite war, was ich erinnere war, eine grosse Büchse Nivea, im Nachhinein stellte sich heraus, also Nivea in Hamburg ist wohl erhalten geblieben und hat erstmal für die Engländer produziert, jedenfalls brachte er eine Büchse Nivea mit, und Koffee vor allen Dingen und Tee. Also es war ein Fest des Friedens, meine Mutter war glücklich und im Nachhinein, aber das gilt nicht für mein Vater, wir haben im Umfeld so ein Paar Leute die sind in England geblieben. Also es muss auch Situationen gegeben haben wo, wenn sie keine Familie hier hatten und dort Anschluss fanden in England, offensichtlich sogar in Grossbritannien geblieben sind, also will sagen unter’m Strich mein Vater hat Glück gehabt. Ist nach Berlin zurückgekommen, als Bankbeamter im Westteil der Stadt gab es keine Arbeit mehr, dir Banken waren alle verstaatlicht, beziehungsweise sind aufgelöst worden von den Russen, es war ja hier alles anders. Und langsam entwickelte sich erst die Differenz zwischen Ost und West, Westberlin, Ostberlin und er musste also andere Tätigkeiten ausüben und er ist 1950 kehrte er wieder in das Bankgeschäft zurück, in die Zentralbank also die eine Unterabteilung der Bank der Deutschen Länder war, und später Deutsche Bundesbank in Frankfurt-Main. Aber seine alte Bank, bei der er bis zum Schluss tätig war, bis also, [unclear], ’43, die gab’s nicht mehr, die wurde ja aufgelöst und die war dann später in Frankfurt-Main und da ist er natürlich nicht hingezogen. So, das war mein Vater.
PS: Hatte er Ihnen, also das war, er war in der Gegend von Leeds.
HD: Ja.
PS: Hat er Ihnen irgend, haben Sie noch irgendwelche Erinnerungen das er Ihnen etwas noch erzählte von dem Gefangenenlager wo er war oder etwas das Ihnen so einfällt?
HD: Der war zuständig für die, für irgendwie das Kraftfahrkorps, irgendwie für die Lastwagenverteilung und Organisation von Transporten undsoweiter. Ich hab natürlich aber da müsste ich mal suchen, ich habe sogar noch seine Personalakte die er mitgebracht hat und wir haben mal, oder meine, mein Neffe der lebt jetzt bei London und die haben mal im Englischen also in dieser Organisation nachgeforscht und haben die Unterlagen gekriegt. Alos, wir wissen wie der Fragebogen aussah, aber das werden Sie ja auch alles haben. Nicht, also was er beantworten musste, in welchen politischen Organisationen er war oder nicht war, das haben wir alles, aber aus dem Lager selber. Es war, vielleicht war er auch vorsichtig um, sagen wir mal, nicht den Eindruck zu erwecken, vielleicht manchmal ist er so in Gedanken gekommen, das der eine oder der andere gar nicht so scharf war wenn er zum Beispiel keine Familie hatte nun in das kaputte Deutschland zurückzukehren, wenn er in England eine Möglichkeit des Lebens sah. Bei meinem Vater war das nicht so, der wollte nach Hause natürlich, der wollte uns ja wiedersehen. Familie ist ja gottseidank intakt geblieben, wir haben also auch wenig Kriegsopfer in der Familie gehabt, alle habense irgendwie Schwein gehabt. Ja, nee also, mehr aus dem Gefangenenlager kann ich Ihnen nicht sagen, ich weiss nur dass mein anderer Onkel, der war in Frankreich dann bei den Amerikanern im Gefangenenlager und als die mitkriegten, die Amis, dass der Musiker auch nebenbei war, haben sie ihm ein Cello gegeben und der hat die Gefangenenkapelle organisiert. Also auch der kam eigentlich zurück mit einem sehr offenen Verhältnis zu den ehemaligen Kriegsgegnern.
PS: Ja, dann, jetzt ein bisschen zurück zu Ihnen.
HD: Ja.
PS: Wie, was, welche Erinnerungen haben Sie von der Zeit in der Sie in Breslau evakuiert waren, auf dem?
HD: Bauernhof.
PS: Ja, auf dem Bauernhof Ihres Onkels, wenn ich mich nicht irre.
HD: Ja, ja, der war da Gutsinspektor, wie man das nannte, und da habe ich natürlich die besten Erinnerungen. Weil, ich konnte dann auf dem Trekker mitfahren, ich habe gesehen wie Viehhaltung war, das funktionierte aber, Sie interessieren sich ja für die politischen Dinge, da weiss ich nur eins: das ich meiner Mutter Ärger bereitet habe, warum? Ich bin dort natürlich in die Schule gegangen und die Lehrerin in der Dorfschule die war eine stramme Parteigängerin, sie trug auf ihrer Bluse immer das grosse, relativ grosse Parteiabzeichen, das erinnere ich, und nun kam ich als Berliner in diese Dorfjugend. Und die Jungs die waren natürlich neugierig oder man, mutmass, ‘na, der kommt aus Berlin’ undsoweiter, und da ich hatte wohl zu der Zeit eine ziemlich grosse Klappe, wei man heute sagt, das heisst also als Berliner sowieso und ich erzählte wohl immer lustig von den Bomben in Berlin, zum Beispiel das wir Bombensplitter gesucht haben. Wir Berliner Jungs, jeder hatte eine Zigarrenkiste hier und wenn der Angriff vorüber war am nächsten Tag, dann ging man über die Strasse wenn in der Gegend was eingeschlagen war und man suchte Bombensplitter. Da hatte man einen ganzen Kasten voll und das tauschte man aus, also solche Sachen. Oder diese Kondensstreifen, weiss nicht ob Sie wissen was das ist, die Engländer die warfen so’n Streifen ab, die waren aussen Schwarz und innen silberig, die sollten das Funkmessgerät meines Bruders praktisch irritieren. Und die Dinger landeten wie so’n leichter Regen oder Schneefall auf der Strasse und die sammelten wir ja ein, das sollte man immer abgeben aber das haben wir natürlich nicht immer gemacht. Und diese Geschichten, und von den Bomben und so, wichtigtuerisch, wie man als Kind ist, muss ich wohl erzählt haben. Jedenfalls kam dann, eines Tages, entweder war es der Dorfgendarm oder der Parteimensch aus dem kleinen Dorf zu meiner Mutter oder bestellte sie ein und ermahnte sie, sie solle doch ihr Erziehungsauftrag wahrnehmen, denn der Junge erzählt hier defätistische Sachen. Ja, das hat er nicht zu machen, das hat er zu unterlassen. Also nun kam meine Mutter und dann kam der Onkel dazu, der hatte zwei Jungs die waren im Krieg, an der Front und der sagte: ‘Um Jottes willen erzähl ja nicht wat, det gibt nur Ärger!’. Also, mir, ich kriegte als Kind den berühmten Maulkorb verpasst, des war so’ne Sache. Am sonsten war natürlich, im Nachhinein ist es mir erst auch deutlicher geworden, das wir auch Fremdarbeiter hatten und in der Gegend waren es natürlich überwiegend Polen, die dort auf dem Gut arbeiteten, die waren aber normal untergebracht, ich kann mich nicht erinnern dass sie in irgendeinerweise jetzt drangsaliert wurden. Ich hatte sogar einen Polnischen kleinen Jungen mit dem ich spielte, also das war für mich, also dieser Gegensatz, Deutsche Polen und so war da nicht spürbar. Habe ich nicht erlebt, ja wir waren da also ganz friedlich. Ich habe übrigens jetzt nach vielen Jahren den Weg da zweimal angetreten nach Breslau und hab die alten Stätten besucht, hab auch das Haus wieder gefunden aber ich konnte mich leider nicht so verständlich machen was ich eigentlich wollte, ich wollte eigentlich nur wiedersehen und eigentlich mit den Leuten die jetzt da wohnen ein Versöhngespräch oder überhaupt ein Gespräch führen aber ich hatte dafür, die waren abständig, zurückhaltend, vielleicht im Hinterkopf den Gedanken, der will da einen Anspruch gelten machen oder was, hatte ich ja gar nicht und sie würden die Bude nicht [unclear], ja, bloss es war ein Stück Erinnerung und ein Stück Heimat. Und da meine Mutter aus Schlesien kommt, habe ich ohnehin mal das Gefühl, ich müsste unbedingt mal nach Breslau, ich bin, vielleicht wäre vielleicht auch ein guter Schlesier geworden. Also eine gewisse, ein gewisses Interesse für die verlorenen Gebiete im Osten. Ja, das war also so in Juliusburg, am sonsten sagte ich ja auf dem Bauernhof und das Leben war absolut friedlich. Ach, eins vielleicht noch, das fiel mir, das erinnere ich auch, da kamen mal die beiden Jungs von den Gutsverwalter, der eine war bei der SS, der andere war bei der Luftwaffe, und ich vermute also dem Gespräch nach waren die an der Ostfront, das heisst also in Russland, und mich schmissen sie aus dem Zimmer raus, also die müssen irgendwelche Geschichten erzählt haben, die nicht für Kinder ungeignet waren. Ergebnis war nur, nachdem auch meine Mutter den Befehl kriegte, in der Umgebung Schützengraben zu ziehen, also aussschöppen, Ende ’44. Muss man es mal überlegen, also die Kriegsheeresführung wusste was auf sie zukommt, aber der Bevölkerung der ist es nicht gesagt worden, und meine Mutter musste Schützengraben ausheben. Und da kam das Gespräch auf Onkel August, so hiess der Onkel, der sagte eines Tages mal: ‘Na ja, also, es macht kene Jedanken, wenn die Russen kommen, dan gehen wir über die Oder’, wir waren also, wenn mann jetzt flussabwärts blickt, waren wir rechts der Oder. ‘Dann gehen wir nach links auf die linke Seite in Breslau, und dann’, und der Satz der ist mir im Ohr geblieben, ‘dann hauen wir die Russen zurück’. Na ja, wie es ausgegangen ist wissen wir. Wir haben den Kontakt nach dem Krieg nie wieder aufnehmen können, ich weiss nicht ob die Familie es überlebt hat, was aus den Jungs geworden ist und der Gedanke nun mit den Leuten darüber mal zu reden und so ein bisschen Vergangenheitsbewältigung zu machen, der ist leider gescheitert, ich hatte den Eindruck, die wollten nicht, und, na ja, kann man nichts machen. Also, das zum Thema Schlesien.
PS; Also, ich wollte Sie, wir sind also fast zu Ende, nur noch ein Paar, ein Paar Fragen.
HD: Ja.
PS: Sie hatten mir erzählt das Sie mit Ihrer Mutter Zeit im Bunker verbracht haben.
HD: Ja.
PS: Das war noch in Berlin.
HD: Das war in Berlin, ja.
PS: Welch Erinnerungen haben Sie? Also Sie waren nur mit Ihrer Mutter? Waren da auch andere Familien? Wo war dieser Bunker?
HD: Der Bunker war hier in der Müllerstrasse, also kennen Sie Berlin, sagt Ihnen das überhaupt was?
PS: Ja. Ja, ja.
HD: Ja. Also, Müllerstrasse, das ist so im Nordwesten und das ist ein grosser Strassenbahnhof gewesen, der hatt den Krieg auch überstanden, da ist wenig oder gar nichts kaput gegangen und unter den Hallen der Strassenbahn, da ist während des Krieges dieser Bunker gebaut worden. Zwar ein Tiefbunker und in den musste man dann durch die Bunkerschleusen, diese riesen Eisentüren, vorne war die Luftschutzwarte, die hatten immer so einen besonderen Helm auf und irgendwie Gasmasken umgehängt, das war immer sehr martialisch und da sind wir durchgewackelt und da wurden uns die Raume zugewiesen und da lagen, waren da Pritschen so auf, die Luft war so wie im Bunker so ist, und man sass still und wir Kinder schliefen, und morgens da gab’s auch kein Fruhstück im Bunker oder so was sondern dann wenn die Sonne oder wenn das Licht wieder da war dann, wie gesagt, wurden wir dann geweckt und standen wieder auf und gingen zurück und wir hatten also einen halben Kilometer Weg ungefähr zu hinter, zu absolvieren und dann die Frage: steht’s oder steht’s nicht? Man merkte das im Bunker nichts, kann mich nicht erinnern das man irgendwie, das der Bunker gewackelt hat, wenn da die Bomben einschlugen oder was. Wie gesagt, bei uns im Norden in dieser Ecke, im Afrikanischen Viertel, waren die Schäden nicht so gross. Die Gegend war also nach dem Krieg relativ schnell enttrümmert oder entrümpelt oder die Strassen wieder zugänglich, wir hatten da also ein gewisses Glück muss ich sagen. Erst wenn man dann mal später in die Innenstadt fuhr, dann sah mal eigentlich, das wahre Ausmaß der Zerstörung, da oben war es nicht. Wir hatten ja die grosse Kaserne neben uns, die damals hiess sie Hermann-Göring Kaserne, war eine Luftwaffenkaserne die für uns beim Einmarsch der Russen natürlich die Quelle für Nahrungsmittel war, plötzlich war keine Kontrolle mehr da, die Menschen, wir stürmten also in diese Kaserne und die Läger waren voll mit Lebensmitteln und mit, ich bin durch Kaffebohnen gewatet, oder waren’s Erbsen, jedenfalls wir nahmen mit was wir mitnehmen konnten und raümten da aus und dann zog ja erst die Briten ein. Denn Berlin war ja erstmal von den Russen ganz besetzt, dann kamen im Juli die Amerikaner und die Briten nach und der spätere Französische Sektor wurde ja erstmal Englisch. Die Franzosen kamen ja erst im August zu uns. Und die Engländer haben sich dadurch beliebt gemacht bei uns, das es hiess, neben der Kaserne werden auch unsere Blöcke für die Soldaten benötigt und es bestand die Gefahr, das wir aus den Wohnungen müssten. Es ist aber Gottseidank dann nicht eingetreten. Aber eine zweite Sache erinnere ich noch, die Engländer forderten auf die Leute sollen ihre Klaviere abgeben. Und wie meine Mutter das geschaft hat, das sie die Leute also entweder keine Angaben gemacht hatt oder was, wir haben unser Klavier behalten. Vorher hatten die Russen ja schon unsere Radios abgeholt oder mussten wir abgeben, Telefone mussten wir abgeben und, wie gesagt, das Klavier haben wir ja behalten und die Engländer haben also darauf verzichtet, uns da zu vereinnahmen. Aber dadurch das die nebenan in der Kaserne waren, muss wohl das Starkstromkabel bei uns immer durchgegangen sein, jedenfalls wir hatten, trotz aller Stromsperren und dergleichen Dinge, hatten wir eigentlich während des ganzen Krieges und auch danach immer Strom. Jetzt war die Frage, Strom wurde kontingentiert, man durfte ja nicht so viel, Kraftwerke gaben das ja gar nicht her. Und nun war wieder mein Bruder, der da beim Militär pfiffig wurde und man fand dann Möglichkeiten um den Zähler zu überbrücken. Oder viele Leute gingen dann abends in den Keller um sich was warm zu machen, auf Kosten des Hauses, and die Leitung der Kellerbeleuchtung rangehen, all solche Geschichten nicht. Also, insofern, viele Erinnerungen auch an die Briten und dann, wie gesagt, kamen die Franzosen, insofern haben wir alle drei Besatzungsmächte kennengelernt.
PS: Hatten Sie Angst als Junge in den Bunker, ich meine, können Sie sich erinnern an die Gefühle die Sie hatten?
HD: Neine, ganz im Gegenteil, das war sicher. Der Bunker vermittelte das Gefühl der Sicherheit. In dem Bunker hatten wir keine Angst. Es gab ja noch den grossen Hochbunker am Bahnhof-Gesundbrunnen, da steht ja noch’n Stück, ist ja übrig geblieben weil man’s nicht sprengen konnte wegen der Eisenbahn, und da waren wir auch mal da als wir mal aus der Stadt kamen und vom Bombenangriff überrascht wurden, gingen wir dort in den Bunker und haben dort den Bombenangriff überlebt. Das merkte man ja nicht, das Ding bewegte sich ja gar nicht, also die waren so stabil. Der Bunker bot absolute Sicherheit und wir kamen auch rein, es war ja, man hat manchmal im Nachhinein Geschichten gelesen, das Menschen rein wollten und der Bunker der war überfullt, die haben dann keinen mehr reingelassen oder so, dass habe ich nicht erlebt.
PS: Ihre Mutter gab auch nicht den Eindruck, Angst zu haben?
HD: Nö, eigentlich nicht. Na wir sind ja hingegangen weil uns die Bunker im Grunde genommen Schutz gewährten, nicht?
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an die Bombardierung des 3 Februars? Sie sprachen auch etwas von Phosphorbomben.
HD: Ja, die Phosphorbomben, dass muss in Kreuzberg, muss dass ganz schlimm gewesen sein, wo die Ritterstrasse, so hiess damals, war mit sehr viel Textilfabbrikken und Hinterhof Etagen und da ist ja also tabula rasa gemacht und ein ganzes Stadtviertel ist zerstört worden. Und wie gesagt diese Phosphorbomben mit der, mit den schrecklichen Brandschäden und wer also Phosphor, wenn die Bombe plazte und man kriegte Phosphor auf die Haut, das war ja nicht zu löschen, nicht? Unter Wasser ging die Flamme aus und kam wieder Sauerstoff ran, dann ging das wieder los. Das haben wir insofern, den 3 Februar insofern gesehen weil über Berlin, das ist eigentlich unvorstellbar, aber, eine Wolke hochging, eine schwarze Wolke, wir sind, wir konnten, wir hatten so eine höheren Punkt bei da uns Park und da konnte man und da sind wir raufgegangen als Kinder und konnten über Berlin diese Riesenwolke sehen. Da brannte ja nun das Schloss, die Oper und die ganze Innenstadt ist ja da an einem Tag kaputt gegangen. Das ist ja das was im Nachhinein für uns Leute hier unverständlich war, warum man nicht, warum das Stauffenberg Attentat zum Beispiel nicht geklappt hatt, warum man nicht längst kapituliert hatte, diese sinnlosen Zerstörungen am 3 Februar, 26. Oder Potsdam, wennse darann denken, 14, 15 April ist Potsdam bombardiert worden für nichts und wieder nichts und der Gedanke den Bomber Command ja warscheinlich hatte, ja den Willen der Bevölkerung zu brechen oder, sagen wir mal, Aufstände zu provozieren, das ist ja nicht aufgegangen wie wir ja nun im Nachhinein wissen. Die Bevölkerung ist ja nicht, wir haben ja nicht jetzt gegen die bösen Nazis geschimpft sondern der Feind kam aus der Luft, nicht? So war ja warscheinlich die Denke damals.
PS: Ja, gerade Sie haben einen, sagen wir, Anstoß gegeben auf, sagen wir, die letzte Frage und das ist eben wie Sie, wie Sie eben damals, was Sie damals dachten von den Bombardierungen und auch wie Sie das heute, siebzig Jahre spater, sehen.
HD: Ja, also, wie soll ich sagen, also?
PS: Sie hatten mir, also wenn Sie mir, hätten sie noch etwas hinzuzufügen auf das was Sie mir eben gesagt haben, wie Sie das damals sahen?
HD: Ja, na ja, ich war damals Kind, also wir waren als die, es waren ja so ungefähr, wir sind hier am 24 April befreit worden und in den letzten Tagen gab es also keine Angriffe. Ich glaube Potsdam so am 15 das war das letzte und in dem Moment wo die Bombenangriffe aufhörten und der Krieg zu Ende war, man hatte zwar andere neue Ängste, nicht? Das hing nun wieder mit der Roten Armee zusammen aber da hatte man ja doch das Gefühl, Gott sei dank, dieser Terror, wie man sagte, der Luftterror von oben ist zu Ende. Also das man nun jetzt liebevoll dachte, die Amerikanischen und Englischen Bomber wollen lediglich die Nazis beseitigen, nee, nee, nee, es waren natürlich die Verluste in der Bevölkerung und in der Substanz. Und wenn man heute nun nach Syrien guckt, wie desselbe wiedermachen, diese sinnlosen Zerstörungen, ja, also, wir, die Bombardierung hat offensichtlich den Wiederstand, ja, sogar noch gefördert, nicht? Im eingangs sagte ich ja die Klassenkameraden von meinem Bruder, da waren ja welche bei die haben ja, die wollten ja noch mit der Panzerfaust wollten die ja noch den T34 ja zerstören, nicht? [coughs] [unclear] Entschuldigung [coughs].
PS: Kein Problem.
HD: [coughs] Ja, Herr Schulze, im Augenblick fällt mir nichts weiter ein.
PS: Ja, eben, sagen wir jetzt die allerletzte Frage.
HD: Ja.
PS: Wie sehen Sie, wenn Sie zurückblicken auf die Zeit, jetzt siebzig Jahre nach dem Krieg, wie sehen Sie das, welche Meinungen haben Sie von dem, von den Bombardierungen, von den, welche Gedanken kommen Sie ihnen jetzt?
HD: [coughs] Ja, also, ein Gedanke der mich immer oder uns immer beschäftigt hatt war eben, dass die Bombardierung der Zivilbevölkerung sinnlos war. Man hatte Verständnis, oder hat bestimmt Verständnis gehabt, wenn also Bahnanlagen, Industrienanlagen, das Ruhrgebiet zerstört werden, aber nun gab’s ja tatsächlich und das ist ja durch die Politik im Kalten Krieg so ein bisschen bestätigt worden, als würden in Berlin zum Beispiel bestimmte Areale nicht bombardiert worden sein, nämlich die die unter Umständen in Amerikanischen Besitz waren also AEG am Gesundbrunnen, da ist nichts kaputt gegangen und schräg rüber die Wohnquartiere sind zielgerichtet kaputt gemacht worden. Man konnte sich das als Kind nicht vorstellen oder überhaupt nicht vorstellen das man bombardieren kann, so punktmässig. Oder dann kommt die andere Geschichte hinzu von Wiesbaden, sagt man immer, die Amerikaner haben Wiesbaden nicht kaputt gemacht weil sie wussten dass sie da eines Tages ihre Komandozentrale unterbringen und so ist also Wiesbaden nicht kaputt gegangen aber nebenan die Stadt Mainz die ist natürlich zerstört worden. Also so’ne Sachen hat man schon im Nachhinein bemerkt und gelesen und man hatte damals also das Gefühl man soll persönlich getroffen werden und das empfanden, gluab ich, viele Leute als, ja, will nicht sagen ungerecht, wir haben ja den Krieg angefangen, also von Recht kann man da nicht sprechen aber zumindest im Ergebnis nicht, hat’s nichts gebracht, ja?
PS: Und das ist auch das was Sie sagen sie auch heute denken.
HD: Das allerdings ja. Das muss man immer noch dazu rechnen, ja. Sie wissen ja, der Zeitzeuge ist der Feind des Historikers, wie man so schön heisst. Der Historiker sieht das alles aus seiner Kenntnis und der Zeitzeuge, der bringt natürlich dann immer noch persönliches mit rein. Herr Schulze, was kann ich noch für Sie tun?
PS: Ich habe, sagen wir, nur eine einzige Frage noch. Und das ist wirklich die allerletzte.
HD: Bitte [laughs].
PS: Ich habe Sie schon [unclear] in Betracht genommen.
HD: Nein, nein, das macht, ist interessant mal über die Dinge zu reden.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich ob einige Ihrer Verwandten Erinnerungen an die Zeit haben? Ich weiss nicht ob Ihre Grosseltern oder so etwas miterlebt haben. Das hatt nichts mit den Bombarderierungen zu tun, vom alltäglichen Leben in Berlin.
HD: Das alltägliche Leben, meine, also man hat normalerweise vier Grosseltern, die eine Seite, die Väterliche Seite, lebte in Moabit und da ist die Oma, die hat das mitterlebt, wenn die einkaufen ging, das die Menschen, und zwar hier die Jüdischen Mitbürger, in der Levetzow-Allee zusammen, oder versammelt wurden und dort war, stand wohl auch eine Synagoge und von dort in Kolonnen losmarschierten. Meine Oma will das gesehen haben, will das auch als tragisch oder was auch immer empfunden haben, aber es war halt so eine bleiernde Stimmung in der, das man immer sagte darüber darf man nicht reden oder man kann da auch nicht protestieren es, also meine Oma hat’s gesehen, man kann also nicht sagen wir haben nichts gewusst. Meine anderen Grosseltern, die lebten in Charlottenburg, die sind ausgebombt worden, die hatten dann eine Laube draussen in Britz, also im Süden Berlins und haben dort den Rest ihrer Tage dort verlebt. Mein Onkel, wie gesagt, ist am Kaiserdamm ausgebombt worden und hat, und die Unterlagen habe ich noch, man ging dann zum Bezirksamt und liess sich bescheinigen das man ausgebombt ist und dann kriegte man eine Unterlage und da, und den, einen Bezugsschein für ein Messer, eine Gabel, ein Kochtopf undsoweiter. Und man musste auch aber gleichzeitig eine Verlustanzeige machen und da gibt’s dann natürlich nur die bösesten Geschichten, also bei meinem Onkel steht auch das er zwei Perser Teppiche bei sich hatte und meine Tante hatte einen Edelpelz und irgendwelche Leute haben mir dann mal ausgerechnet, sowiel Perser Teppiche hatt’s auf der ganzen Welt nicht gegeben wie plötzlich nach den Bombenangriffen hier bemängelt worden. So wie wir es ja auch erlebt haben wenn man unterwegs als Turist bestohlen wurde, weiss ich, irgendwo, und Photoapparat weg, dann war das bei der Polizei, immer eine Leika nicht, und immer ein bisschen höher wert, ja. Also, diese Sachen, an die erinnere ich mich natürlich. Und vor allen Dingen wie mein Onkel, der nun Betriebsleiter war und hier mit den Russen auch seine Schwierigkeiten hatte, dann seinen eigenen Betrieb abbauen musste, weil das dann nach Russland alles transportiert wurde, das war schon, aber das ist ja nicht jetzt Ihr Thema.
PS: Gut also, ich, das war alles sehr sehr sehr interessant, was Sie mir erzählt haben und ich würde jetzt damit aufhören, ich glaub ich habe Sie schon genug in Betracht genommen.
HD: Sie können jederzeit wieder anrufen wenn Ihnen etwas einfällt.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Hubert Draegert
Description
An account of the resource
Hubert Draegert remembers his wartime experiences, first in Berlin and then as an evacuee at his uncle’s farm near Wroclaw. He mentions the bombing of the Berlin State Opera and the repeated efforts made to rebuild the gutted building. He remembers the 3 February 1945 bombing, stressing how his neighbourhood was not heavily damaged. He tells of his brother who was drafted as a Luftwaffenhelfer with all his classmates. As a radio operator, his brother listened to the BBC and was therefore always up-to-date on the course of war. Herr Draegert mentions various episodes of his own life as an evacuee: Polish foreign workers; his mother digging trenches as the Russians approached; being reproached by a police officer for spreading defeatist stories at school. He remembers collecting bomb fragments and strips of tinfoil window so as to trade them with other children. He mentions his father working in a Jewish bank before being drafted into the Navy in 1943 and his father's subsequent time as a prisoner of war near Leeds, where he was treated humanely. Hubert Draegert reminisces about the time spent in the shelter with his mum, stressing the sense of safety it provided. He describes the effects of incendiaries on civilians and emphasises how the bombing didn’t turn the population against the regime and were therefore a failure, although factories and transport hubs were, in his eyes, legitimate targets. He describes blackout measures; food rationing; firefighting with domestic implements; and the opportunistic behaviour of civilians. He recollects British soldiers impounding pianos. He reflects on the bombing war, stressing the gap between scholarly interpretations and eyewitness accounts. He emphasises that targets were not always chosen according military priorities but rather the Allies’ post-war agenda.
Format
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01:13:00 audio recording
Language
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deu
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Berlin
Poland--Wrocław
Germany
Poland
Temporal Coverage
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1945-02-03
1943
Creator
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Peter Schulze
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2018-02-09
Type
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Sound
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ADraegertH180209
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
Luftwaffenhelfer
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
shelter
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/169/2248/Howard, Irene.2.jpg
a7acc4013a5e27bd1419f63178ef6036
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/169/2248/AHowardI170112.2.mp3
e4839f9f85a4947dedbaf8db9f5ca660
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Howard, Irene
I Howard
Description
An account of the resource
31 Items. An oral history interview with Irene Howard née Green (1925 - 2018), Civil Defence Warden Service and war damage compensation documents, identity cards and ration books as well as various Christmas greetings and photographs of family. She worked in a factory in Manchester during the war and as an Air Raid Precaution Warden. Her house was bombed in December 1940.
The collection was donated by Irene Howard and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Identifier
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Howard, I
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-12
2017-03-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt. The interviewee is Mrs Irene Howard. The interview is taking place at Mrs Howard’s home in Coleby, Lincolnshire on the 12th of January 2017. Also present is Michelle Nunn. Okay. Thank you Irene for agreeing to be interviewed. Perhaps you could give me some background information of when and where you were born and carry on from there?
IH: Right. My name was Irene Green when I was born. I was born on 26th of September in 1925 and we lived in 10 Tarbuck Street, Salford 5, we lived and I was the youngest of quite a large family. My mother, she didn’t work ‘cause she had a lot to look after but my father did. He worked for the Salford Corporation. He had a barge drawn by horse that he used to bring home if he was near us at dinnertime. He’d [start?] the farmers to, you know to pick the produce up for Salford Corporation where the horse and carts used to be waiting for them to take them into towns you see. That’s what me dad did and of course you see I had all the, about four or five sisters altogether and of course I’d been a bridesmaid quite a few times for each one or the other you know. The thing was that when I was born our Lily, that’s the one that passed away at thirty two, she was twenty one so she was quite disgusted with mother, having a baby when I’m twenty one, but mum said, ‘She spoiled you’ she said ‘She dressed you up like a doll.' So I always had decent clothes and I got quite, I think that’s why I’m a bit snooty you know because of it ‘cause you’re really in the streets, you see, you know these side streets, you see they were small streets that had twelve houses, six either side. They came off a long street, you know called Regent Street. They all had different names, these streets and they had black walls at the bottom. That sort of streets they were. We had a wide back entries so they could come down to empty the dustbins, the men, you see, so therefore what’s the name, we lived in this house and it had gas mantles. That’s all you were had to see. Nothing else. And we used to have a radio what had a accumulator attached to it, you see and you used to have to take it to go and get it charged. Be careful not to get any acid on yourself. This is what they used to say, me mam and dad and of course me dad was very strict. We all had to sit properly at the table for meals. You weren’t allowed to have them anywhere else and if you didn’t get on with your meal instead of messing about with it you got told off to eat it. You’d better eat it up because you’ll get it again and he wouldn’t but that’s what he used to threaten with. And anyway he was a very good father because at weekends when he was not on the barge he took over the meals. He cooked all the meals for mam. He said mam cooked ‘em all week she needed a rest so with whatsisname he used to get up and cook and he knew every step on the stairs ready for your breakfast. He’d have the bacon cooked, hanging on a toasting thing what he made, the tongue and he hung it on the thing against the fire so the toast was made. He used to put the bacon, put your plate, you know, these thick plates we had on them days on the thing that was holding it and put the egg on and the bacon used to drip on to the egg to cook. Oh it was beautiful. Never tasted it since. But he always knew which step was coming downstairs but you was always made to go to the sink even though it was cold water. Get your hands and face washed and your hair done. Then you were allowed to come to the table for your breakfast. That was me dad. That’s what he did. And then he used to cook all the dinner. Roast beef and all that we had, and Yorkshire pudding but we always had us Yorkshire pudding first, on its own, and a bit of salt on, a bit of sugar on it. Yeah. That’s how we had our Yorkshire pudding and then you had your main meal you know and then, dad would bake. He used to make apple, always a plate pies. There was apple pie, there was custard pie, there was a current pie and a jam pie. Jam tart as they call them now and so he did all that and we used to have the apple pie with custard for the sweet after. But he did all the cooking and our girls had to you know take turns to you know do all the washing up. That was mam’s time off ‘cause he said 'She’s looked after you all week, and cooked your, and everything.' He said 'Her time to have a rest.' Yeah. He always did that. Yeah, he was a marvellous father and I was spoilt by him even though he had the others. He used to take me to see my Aunt Ada on bank holidays. I had to be all dressed up. Me dad used to put his suit on and have a white stiff front you know underneath like they used to have years ago and his whatsit this like hat he had. Not trilbies, they were called something else. Anyway, we used to go on the tram ‘cause it was trams then. We’d go all the way to Brant Broughton[?]. That’s what it was called in that there. This aunt of mine, well it was me dad’s, one of me dad’s sisters, she had a shop on the corner opposite Strangeways prison, she did. It was fruit side one and all groceries the other and of course we used to, we used to go there and stay with Aunt Ada for a few days, well for a few hours rather, with Uncle Herbert and I think, I always thought she gave me dad a bit of money to have a drink [laughs]. I’m sure she did because when we came home we used to always stop before we come on the tram. He used to call in on this pub to go and have a pint and it was funny really. And I had to stand outside with a lemonade and, ‘If any man spoke to you, shout me.' You know, that was it then, them days. Which you did and I used to wear, always wore a hat. Like a straw bonnet affair and you see when I was a bit older it was like a boater we had. Velour hat. And of course this day it rained and it was a white hat and it blew off my head [laughs] and I was crying with my hat wet so me dad played hell with me mam when he got home ‘cause she didn’t put my elastic underneath it, not that I liked the elastic but that was it, you see and the couple that was over, the governor and that over Strangeways prison then, their daughter was the same age as me and she had some beautiful clothes. I mean she used to give them to my Aunt Ada to send for me, you know, and that sort of thing. That’s how we used to do, well you know until me dad passed away in 1936. He was only sixty one. He had a stroke but they didn’t, able to do things like they are today. He had it at work and so of course me dad was you know going about with a walking stick and that and so we had to manage ‘cause we had to pay doctors’ bills then ‘cause I used to go and pay it for me mam. A shilling a week. Go to the receptionist at the doctors and give her a card and she signed it and took the shilling and that’s how she paid for the doctor, me mam. And I’ll tell you what’s the name used to sit near the door because he made stools. Big stools to sit on. We had four and they used to stand in a recess ‘cause there were too many chairs, couldn’t get around the table. So he made these stools and two of them sat on them and I had to stand between me mam and dad at the table because I was the youngest and that you see and that’s how they did. They both had their rocking chair. Me mam’s was a black one and it was like low and she used to sit in that and me dad sat in one with arms and it was that side and me mam was this side of the table and so of course with what’s ‘is name that’s how I lived and as I say the front room was the posh room. You weren’t allowed in it unless there was a wedding and then of course we had a gate-leg table in the middle and you wound an handle and it opened and you put a piece inside it you know then mam used to bring out a white chenille cloth and all that sort of thing and then a neighbour, somebody she was friendly with would come and get the meal ready if it was a wedding you see and then all the neighbours would come in to wish the couple with a drink, you know, sherry or whatever. And that’s how we did in the front room. And our Lily wanted a sewing machine so mam bought, you know saved up money and they got it. It was a Singer sewing machine that had the lid and [?] that’s how it was and that was under the window and of course you see when me dad died the sons stayed up all night you know while he was laid in his coffin. Yeah. I don’t know what law that was but that’s how they always did ‘cause they’d put white blinds down your windows, upstairs and down, and then put curtain, like white sheets they were round and the coffin used to sit in the front room you see so you could see him and then they’d put the lid on when it was time for the funeral. When it was the funeral he had a horse and coaches in them days. There were four black horses for the hearse and then there was four coaches after, you know. And the neighbours used to collect, somebody’d died in the street and they’d get, buy a cross and it would hang up at the end of the street on the wall for our neighbours all to see it and that used to hang at the back of the hearse, you know, where it was whatsit, it was all glass you see and they used to hang it at the back. The other wreaths would sit on the top of the coffin, you know on top of the roof of the hearse and that was his funeral. I’ve got, the bill’s in there. I could show it you because it was only about five pounds summat, you know. That’s where it is today. Yeah I found it. I meant to tell you. Yeah.
Of course as I grew up to go to school in them days. You didn’t have nursery schools or things like that you just went straight to school. The school was in the next street sort of thing because it became a warden centre you see, in the war and that’s where I used to go to school. Just around the corner, you see. I went there 'til I was eleven and then I went to Tatton Road School to finish until I was fourteen and as I say I was fourteen one day and then on the Monday I went to work at Goldsworthy’s you see. It was an emery place. ‘Cause my brother worked there. My eldest brother, our Bill and he what’s the name, he was the maintenance man at this place and so of course he had got me a job there. That’s how I come to work and I worked from Monday morning to Saturday dinnertime for ten shilling a week. That’s what you got and as I say school was very nice. The little, what they called Saint er no, Regent Street School where I first went the headmistress was very kind and if a child couldn’t come to school ‘cause they’d got no shoes she would take them up the road and buy them a pair of shoes and threaten them if their mother dared to pawn them. That’s what it was and the shoes was only about a shilling or something. They were cheap little black shoes she bought them to make sure they came to school. Yeah ‘cause people used to help them out ‘cause the father probably couldn’t get a job and the mother didn’t work in them days. No mothers went to work when I was young. They were all at home, you see and that’s how it used to be and they used to be, down our back entry there used to be a bookies where they had a [?] who stood outside and if someone saw the Ds, as they called them, coming down Regent Street they’d warn him and you see the bookie would disappear, shut all up and sometimes they’d end up in our house. Me mam said, she used to tell me about this. One day he managed to run across to my Aunt Lena ‘cause me mam’s sister lived opposite and of course she put my Uncle Jess’s dinner on the table and he ran and sat there and sat there with it and the Ds were running wondering where he’d gone and went through our house, of course there weren’t anybody there, they went across the road and my Aunt Lena said, ‘What are you doing in here? Here’s my husband’s having his dinner,’ she said. She started on him. Anyway, he said, ‘I’m very sorry Mrs,’ and off they went and that was the bookie sat there, you know, making out he was eating Uncle Jess’s dinner. Honestly, some of the things they did, you know you have to laugh about it really, you know. Things that, you know, you won’t see today anymore and that was how it used to be you know [laugh] and that and as I say we had a good laugh because my sisters were all good. I had one birthday I had a new dress for every day because they were only about a shilling. They were cotton dresses, you know and then I used to have little white socks and black patent ankle straps. That’s what we had and that and as I said our Lily was always dressing me up you know and that and I used to have a posh, a coat on with a little velvet collar but I never like velvet dresses ‘cause me mam used to have a lady that used to make dresses you see and me Aunt Lena living opposite she had a daughter. She was a little bit older than me our Elsie and she whats the name she used to, we used to have to both had to walk up to see this lady to get measured for a dress, a special dress but I never liked velvet. Oh I hated velvet. Didn’t like touching it, you know, so I never got a velvet dress because I refused to have one you see ‘cause I used to say to me mam I don’t like and our Lily used to say if she doesn’t like one mother let it be you see as if she was my mother and yet she created when I was born ‘cause she gave me my name because we had, well she was me mam’s cousin, not mine. She used to be always at our house ‘cause her mother was me mam’s aunt. She was a little old lady used to come with her shawl on every day from up where Salford station was. She lived up there and she used to walk down to our house and she always sat in a chair behind the back door ‘cause we had to, we used the back door more than any and she used to sit there in between that door and the sink. She never sat anywhere else and she had, you know, her hair done up in a bun. And she must have been old. Her name was Aunt Charlotte we called which was her name. Well her daughter used to be always be at our house, you see. She had a son and a daughter. And I tell you, well her son came because he used to be a coal, had a coal lorry bringing us coal and I’ll tell you our Alice said when I was born she said, ‘Oh what do you think mother if our Sal,’ that was me mam’s name, they always called her Sal, ‘Gives the baby your name?’ Well she hit the roof. Yeah. I’d never heard her go on before so much till mam was telling me how she shouted and went on. She said, ‘You’ll not call that girl that name,’ she said. Now our Alice said, ‘She could be called Lottie.’ ‘No way,' she said, ‘is she being called that terrible name.’ She said, ‘So there.’ She said, ‘You can forget it.’ So then our Lily comes home from service ‘cause she used to come at weekends. She was at an hotel and she come in and she, she said, ‘Oh mam,’ she said, ‘We’ll call her Irene.’ She said, ‘Oh, I’ve never heard that name.’ She said, ‘Well no, it’s all the rage now. It’s for peace.’ And that’s how I got my name [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah I was nearly called that you know. Yeah when the war broke out as you know 1939, September 3rd and what’s ‘is name you see our Bett lived opposite then. She got Aunt Lena’s house opposite and Aunt Lena had passed on and anyway you see she got married in 1935 our Bett did and he paid for us to have the electric in you see and then our Nellie came up with this here beautiful flakestone bowl for mam you know and that and of course you see then I had to go to work and I went to work at Goldsworthy’s where they made sandpaper and emery paper and it had a square roof, it did, at the top. Well, when we were there we had to do fire service at weekends so we always had it on a Sunday and the men used to do it on a Monday all day er Saturday all day. That’s how we did and we had to go up on that roof and if any incendiaries, if there was an air raid on or incendiaries were dropping we had to go and race and damp ‘em down you see with sandbags or get the stirrup pump and that’s how it came about and of course you see when I got my papers, calling up papers, me mam was in a right state. She’d never heard of women getting called up. I said, ‘Well it’s different today mam.’ So I had to go to the recruiting centre with my letter to prove and so he said, ‘What had you thought about?’ And I said, ‘Well I don’t mind the army, or the RAF,’ I said, ‘But I won’t go in the navy because,’ I said, ‘I can’t swim.' You know, I said not that I’d be wanting to go to swim but I just don’t want it you see. So he said, ‘That’s fair enough.' He said, ‘Have you got any independent relatives that you have to look after?’ And I said, ‘Me mother.' ‘Oh well you can’t go in one of the forces,’ he said. I looked at him. I said, ‘Why?' He said, ‘Well, we don’t take, we don’t like to take people away from any parent that’s left,' he said, ‘And I assume your mam must be getting on.’ I said, ‘She is.’ So he said, ‘Well you’ll have to go in to the civil defence.' So he said, ‘What would you like to do?’ So I said 'Alright then. I’ll go in as a warden.' You know, an ARP Warden and that’s one of the letters thanking me, you know, for being in it and having to be out when an air raid was on but I was fortunate because living in Old Trafford then you see with what’s ‘is name I could look at staying in my own street to keep my eye on me mam and that’s how it came about then and so of course I was an ARP Warden. We had a uniform and everything of navy blue. A blue shirt and a tie and everything you know because we had parades you see and that were the Home Guard and that you know and so we used to have to be there with the sandbags at the corner of the street and the stirrup pump and then whatsit but the men were very good to me. I was the only woman in it and the men were very good. They taught me how to play darts in my spare time and that’s how I come to play darts. Through these men. And one of them used to always come around to see if I was alright when there was a raid on. I was managing you know to get down the street and put a sandbag on it or if it got to be a bit more to get the stirrup pump and that and do in the night.
CH: It was quite dangerous what you were doing then?
IH: Yeah. It, well it says there about danger you know and all that but you don’t think of that when you’re young. All you think of you’re doing a job for your country. Standing up for your country against flaming Hitler, you see but the other story’s better when I, when we got the Blitz ’cause no what’s its went. No sirens went on that Sunday night.
CH: Were you still working as an ARP Warden then?
IH: Oh yes you still had to go to work oh yeah. And that’s how you come to have to help over the factory to go up on the roof to put fires out. We did you know ‘cause you were that and that that was your job instead of racing off to my depot when it come on in the daytime I had to attend to the factory and do, you know. Do that you see, we did. When I think I can’t climb up one step now and I used to have to be up on the roof [laughs] but you could see for miles all around Manchester and everywhere you see and that and as I say on the night that the Blitz came it was near Christmas, 21st of December and we’d just finished us tea of a Sunday. Well I was just clearing the table ‘cause as I say we always had to sit at a table. Me mam was just washing up the few pots and all of a sudden I thought that sounds like a plane. So I thought I’d carry on. Anyway, all of a sudden bump. Oh I thought, ‘Oh my God.' I said to me mam, I said, ‘Here’s the enemy.' She said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘I know the sirens haven’t gone' I said 'But they’re we are. They’re on us,’ which they did. We got no siren so we couldn’t get to the shelter ‘cause we had to come out of there to get right up to the top road you see ‘cause they were going to build flats and when the war started they turned them into underground shelters. This is what it was and so therefore I said, ‘there’s no good us going out mam,’ ‘cause we used to go most nights ‘cause they were very good the council ‘cause they gave us bunks to sleep on you see you know they’d fasten them together because the first time they put them in people turned them over [laughs] turned over so we used to have a laugh in the shelters you know and so of course what’s the name they fastened them together then. It was alright. Mam used to get on the bottom one and I used to climb on the top one you see and our neighbour lived across the road, Nora. She had two little boys. Her husband worked away a lot you see and she always called me mam Granny Green which of course was our name and she had Tony and John you see, so of course on the night of the Blitz I said to me mam, ‘Well I’ll go under the table. It might be safe there,’ and I said, ‘You sit in the coal house,’ which was under the stairs, on the chair. I said, ‘At least it might help.’ Well we sat there and the bombs was coming down oh it was terrible. Really, really terrible. I kept thinking, ‘Oh God has it got my name on it?’ You know. You did all these things. I said to me mam, ‘I can’t stop under here mam,’ I said, ‘I can smell burning.' So she said, ‘You can? I said, ‘Yeah. Come on,‘ I said, ‘We’ll sit on the stairs.’ Well when I sat on the stairs I smelt it more so I crept up the stairs and looked and I thought, ‘Oh my God. The roof’s on fire.’ It was incendiaries all on the roofs and then of course you see as we sat there all of a sudden the flipping house shook as if it was coming on top of us and it was an oil bomb been thrown out of a plane and it dropped next door it did and of course it shook the house. It was terrible. All the windows shot out. I said to me mam, ‘Oh God.’ We prayed, I’ll tell you. Ever so hard. We thought this is our end. We did. Me mam said, ‘You climb up that machine, sewing machine on the window and you try and get out of that window and don’t cut yourself.’ I said, ‘What are you going to do?’ She said, ‘Stop here, I’ve had my life.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘If you’re stopping here I stop here.' I said, ‘If we go,’ [tearful] sorry. I said, ‘We go together,’ and that so anyway we’re there and then we could hear the others shouting in the street, ‘Please help us. Help us,’ you know and we heard some men and I thought, ‘Oh God shall I get this door open,’ So I got the axe and was banging on the door because with the bomb it had lodged the door and it wouldn’t open and that so of course I kept banging and somebody shouted, ‘Is somebody there?’ So I said, ‘Yes it’s me and me mother,’ I said, ‘And we can’t get the door open to get out,’ I said, ‘And we’re on fire upstairs.’ He said, ‘Yes, we know lass’ he said, 'Anyway, we’ll try this side hammering and you bang your side with that hammer,’ and that was how I got the door open you see. Well, we come out and there was Nora standing there with the two children shouting, ‘Granny Green. Where are you Granny Green?’ ’Cause we used to go to the shelter together so of course I said, ‘We’re here Nora, we’re alright.’ So of course when we got outside I thought, ‘Oh God this must be hell,’ you know, when you saw the blazing and all the smell and that from the bombs that was coming down so I picked up little’en, her little boy Johnny and put him under my coat. Me mam has her shawl on you see. They wore shawls then and she had, Nora had Tony, the one a bit bigger and so we set off to get up to the shelters while it was bombing you see ‘cause we didn’t know any other and the smell was terrible you know what they put in the bombs and all we could hear was the fella saying, different fellas shouting, wardens, ‘Keep against the wall.’ You had to come out of our street, go over Regent Street and up another little street to get to the main road so of course we kept against the wall. We couldn’t go fast anyway because I had got Johnny, me mam wasn’t very good on her legs and she, Nora had got Tony so I crept along the walls like that till we got to the main road and I thought oh God look at it. All the blazing you know so we tried to keep the kids away from it. We crossed the road finally and there was like a wooden board, you know where they put the wood up to stop people going in and there was so much gravel on the floor and then the pavement come so of course when we just got that side and we stopped for a breath to get me breath, well me mam did anyway and all of a sudden Nora fainted. I thought, ‘Oh my God what am I going to do?’ So I grabbed Tony, pushed him under me mam’s shawl and she kept him under her shawl and I thought well I can’t pick her up. I can’t help her and all of a sudden a fella, it must have been God. This fella come running up in a uniform I think he must have been a bus driver or something he said, ‘Don’t worry lass,’ he said, ‘I’ll take her to sick bay,’ and he picked her up and he said, ‘Whatever you do don’t move.’ I looked at him and said, ‘Don’t move?’ ‘No. No, don’t move and keep them children close to you. Don’t let ‘em say anything. Just stay there like statues,’ he said, ‘Else they’ll shoot ya’ I said. ‘You what?’ I said, ‘We haven’t been invaded have we?’ And then the fella went running off with Nora you see and I thought, ‘My God, they must have come down in parachutes.’ You know, you didn’t know what to think. So I said to mam, ‘Don’t say anything mam. Just let us stand here like statues and keep Tony hidden and I’ll keep Johnny hidden.’ Well, all of a sudden I looked up the road and I thought what on earth’s this coming ‘cause I’d never seen a plane as low as that and it was one of their planes and it had been hit and it was on fire you know near the, in between it must have been because the pilot was trying to get it off the floor. This was what he was trying to do. Of course the one who was shooting was a rear gunner. He was going berserk with the machine gun. He was spinning it one way and then another. Well bullets were falling on the pavement in front of us and I thought oh my god we’re going to be, you know, shot. That we’ve got out of the house. We’ve come all this way up here. Now it’s going to be our end against this barrier. Anyway, we kept still and of course the fella kept trying to get his plane up. Mind you he didn’t because it ended up in the cotton mill that was blazing what they’d bombed it got so far and of course it dived in there and that was it. But oh, so of course then we’re still stood there and the fella come running back. He said, ‘You’re alright?’ And I said, ‘Yes, thank you.’ I said, ‘How did you know?’ ‘Well I was further up the road,' he said, ‘Duck, I left my bus up there blazing,’ he said and, ‘Therefore' he said 'I came running down to get to the shelter myself when I saw the predicament you were in.’ I never knew the man. I never knew his name even to thank him. I kept saying, ‘Oh thanks ever so much. You saved us,’ which he did really because we could have all been shot and then of course he said, ‘Come on, I’ll take the kiddies to their mother in the sick bay.’ So he took the two kids, two little boys to their mam and then me and me mam, got round and as we got down into the shelter this other sister Emily that lived near us she fainted ‘cause she thought we’d been killed ‘cause somebody had said our street had gone up which of course it did and that was how it went and then of course then they brought us a cup of tea. The WRVS, they were in there and that so of course when we came out when the all clear went I came out to devastation. Yeah. When the all clear went we came out the shelter to devastation. Houses and probably looked like, I don’t know. You thought they’d all been knocked over like dominoes and so of course we got to our street, we got to our door and of course it had blown open and all that. The windows was all out and it was still burning. They couldn’t get enough water in Salford you see to get them out and anyway me mam burst in to tears and I was hugging her, kissing her ‘cause I was in tears ‘cause when you see your home gone that like and the beautiful furniture you had and that you see and then Mrs Leatherbarrow that lived next door she come up and then she saw hers and her and mum clung on together ‘cause they’ve been there all these years together and they were crying so I said shall we go around the back and see if we can get in any way there? So me mam and Mrs Leatherbarrow walked together and I walked behind and when we got in to the entry I looked. I said, ‘Oh we’re not going to get in,’ I said, '‘cause it looks like the ceilings already come down in the kitchen,’ ‘cause the kitchens was at the back. Well opposite, the street opposite weren’t too bad. Yes, it had a coal thing in it [Johnny Perrin’s] old coal place. You’d have thought it would have gone up with that you know next door but it didn’t and of course these two ladies, they were catholic ladies, they were very nice, really ladies. Two Miss Quigley’s they were and they had this beautiful house there and our [Ida?] got their house you see and they come out and they were saying how sorry they were to mam and Mrs Leatherbarrow. ‘We’re going to make you a cup of tea and you’re coming in to have a drop of brandy,’ which I thought was lovely of them. So I just said, you know, ‘I’ll be alright.’ She said, ‘You can come in my dear,’ she said, ‘As well, if you like,’ she said, ‘And we’ll make you a cup of tea.’ Anyway, they were talking and all of a sudden Mrs Leatherbarrow, you didn’t hear women swear, she started off and I thought, ‘Who’s she shouting at?’ and it was Hitler she was going on about and I looked at her and she said 'If I get so and so I’ll wring his neck with my bare hands.' I said, ‘What’s the matter?’ She said, ‘Look,’ and when I looked her Christmas puddings were stuck to the wall outside [laughs] and they were just there stuck like that. I think it was three or four. The plate, the basin was smashed on the floor. The blast of the bomb had shot 'em out the bloody kitchen and they’d stuck on the wall in the entry. Well I started laughing. I couldn’t help it but then of course, we all laughed then. It seemed [it was coming up] through the tears but oh it was funny. I’ll never forget seeing them Christmas puddings. It was if they’d been thrown 'em at the wall and it stuck there, you know well she did and surely if she’d spotted him she’d have gone for him and wrung his neck. She would honest to God, when she turned around, I never noticed the puddings when I first went down the entry in our house and hers and I tell you we were busy looking if we could get in the back way, you know, like you do, thinking well I might rescue something and so of course that’s what happened, she’d spun around and spotted 'em. Well she, of course it broke it then. We was all laughing ‘cause it did, they did look funny and that’s what our Michelle meant, because you know, it was so funny seeing Christmas puddings pinned to a wall you know and of course [laugh] we started laughing and that helped them all to laugh. Well me mam and Mrs Leatherbarrow and the two Quigley ladies and that. We tried to get in at the back but the ceiling upstairs had come down on the, you know on to the bottom and that so we could have got in but you’d be stood on a lot of rubble. You’d have to be careful. And well we did get in me and our Emily and our Emily stood on one side and she passed me some pots and things to save but I wish we’d gone and tried to get in the front. Anyway, I thought when we went home I thought I’ve got to get me mam something else you know I’m saying to myself. I thought I’ll get in. I’ll go around the front so of course I went around the front. People were saying, ‘You can’t go there.’ I said, ‘I can,’ I said, ‘It’s our house,’ I said to this fella ’cause it was our house after all whether it was on fire or not. He said, ‘You’ll get burned.' I said, ‘I won’t. Clear off,’ I said. I was that mad. I was only, I know mam would have said I was rude and played hell but anyway, I ran in, got myself on the table in the middle and I thought, ‘Oh I’ll have to get her that flakestone bowl,’ so I got it, I hooked it off the thing but I didn’t dare take the rose down because I didn’t know if the ceiling would come down on me you see so I thought I’ve got a flakestone bowl with the chains in it and that mirror and that mirror was in the front room yes yeah ever since I was a little girl. Must be a hundred years old or more. And I know that the flakestone bowl was bought in 1935 but I don’t know whether I can get it out for you. It’s in the what’s the name to show you. If you come with me in my bedroom.
[recorder paused]
So therefore after I got these things for me mam she come around you see at the front, her and Mrs [Leatherbarrow] and I said, 'Look mam, I’ve got you these,’ and she said, ‘Oh bless you.’ I said, ‘Well you’ve got to have some 'at, mam,’ I said, ‘Out of it.’ Anyway then my sister who lived in Old Trafford she came all the way from Old Trafford ‘cause she’d been told that Salford had caught it, you know. They hadn’t. So our Bett came and she’d got a baby ‘cause our Valerie was born on the Friday as the war broke out on the Sunday so she’d got our Valerie see. She’s still living, our Valerie. I’ve been to see her this last year. Our Simon took me. I’d never been before so I’ve not seen them for, getting on for over seventy years and ‘cause her brother had turned up one day on a motorbike, our Jamie and he went over to number 8 where I lived when we first moved in you see as a family then and I moved in number 8 you see and he was at number 8 looking all around and Ann next door, she said, ‘Can I help you?’ And he said ‘Yes, I’m looking for my Auntie Irene.’ She said, ‘Oh she don’t live here now,’ she said, ‘Since your Uncle Stan died,’ she said, ‘She lives over there at number 4.’ Well Ann, it was a bank holiday and Ann shouted over the road, ‘Rene you’ve got a visitor.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Have I?’ ‘Yes,’ she said, ‘It’s your Jamie.’ Well for a minute I couldn’t think who. I thought, ‘Who’s our Jamie?’ You know and of course when he put his head around the corner he said, ‘Oh Auntie Irene' and we were both there daft as anything but you can’t help it can you when you haven’t seen anybody for all them years and it was like when our Simon took me to see our Valerie ‘cause he wanted to go to Bolton about a bike, ‘cause he’s bike mad our Simon, and anyway he took us and our [Anita?] was with us ‘cause she’d lost Keith you see[?] and so of course when we found our Valerie’s you know at Hyde and it was up a slope so he left the car down and he said, ‘I’ll go and knock on the door and see if she’s in.’ 'Cause she didn’t know we was coming. So he went and knocked on the door and she come out and she said, ‘Yes,’ ‘cause she didn’t know our Simon you see. So he said, ‘I’ve brought your Auntie Irene to see you.’ ‘What? Where is she? Where is she?’ And he said, ‘Hang on a minute,’ he said, ‘She can’t walk up here,’ he said, ‘She’s had an accident.’ ‘What sort of?’ He said, ‘Well it’s her leg’ he said. So he said, ‘I’ll bring her up in the car.’ ‘Well I’ll get my shoes on.’ She’d been in the house without her shoes you see and so of course she had some steps. Anyway, they helped me up the steps so we had a lovely afternoon you see of course. And that’s when we told her that our Anita’s husband had died, that’s when [unclear] I said it was lovely to see you and she writes to me now, our Valerie and I mean she’s getting on because she was born in ’39 you know when the war, well it came two days after. Yeah. She did ‘cause our Bett [interrupted].
CH: You were saying that she turned up at the house when it had been bombed.
IH: No.
CH: Your sister.
IH: Oh yes. Our Bett. Yeah. She came from Old Trafford where she lived and she turned up. She said, ‘Where are you mam?’ I said, ‘We’re here.’ She said, ‘Come on, you’re coming to stay with us.’ She said, ‘You’ve got nowhere to go, you’ll have to go back to the shelter to sleep,’ which we would have had to have done ‘cause nobody, we had nowhere to go. The other people didn’t and so we went to live at our Betts at number 14 Hamilton Street. It’s one [unclear] of these, on one of mam’s papers, that was it 'cause that’s where we went to stay you see ‘cause she’d got our Valerie as a baby and her husband in a three bedroom so we went and stayed there. Well, I had another sister that lived in Little Hamilton Street. Our Edie. She was the eldest one. Well a landmine came down, ‘cause we was in our Bett’s shelters, and it was dressed like a man, this landmine. And our Jim, our Bett’s husband thought it was and he said, ‘I’ll have that,’ so and so and he ran out the shelter and as he did do it landed on where our Edie lived just in the next little street what was called Little Hamilton Street. The one we were in was big Hamilton Street. And it tied itself around a chimney and blew up. So their street had had it you see and Jim felt the vibration but they had thought it was a fella, a German coming down, you see, with a parachute and it was dressed as a fella. It was a landmine. Yeah.
[recorder paused]
CH: Okay.
IH: Yeah. So of course therefore you see with what’sit we went to live with our Bett in Hamilton Street and then our Edie and her husband and sister and all their, they had to come and live with us as well ‘cause when that landmine hit it cleared their street. A small street called, small, Little Hamilton Street and therefore we’re what’s its name you see so we all had to live together in our Bett’s which was good that she had room for us and that you see. Anyway, then our Nellie came because she’d been her husband was the one that sent them Christmas cards to us, Robert and she’d I can’t think where she’d been staying. She’d been staying with somebody. She had a little boy, Harold. He was born the day after my birthday in September as the war was broke out and anyway she what’s the name so of course she managed to get this house in Old Trafford not far from our Bett’s it was, you know, and it was 2 Barrett Street and the street that Laurie[?] was born in you see and because what’s the name we lived there and she was on shift work our Nellie did, working for the force, I can’t remember what she did, it was something to do with the forces anyway. That’s what she did. Well her husband was called up the day war broke because he was in the territorials so he went. He went before Harold was born and he never saw that child. When he came back he was five years old, Harold was ‘cause I used to look after him when our Nellie was on shifts. My hours were different than hers so when I was at work she had him and then me mam had him for the short period ‘cause we lived together you see. So of course when Robert came back home he wouldn’t have anything to do with him. ‘Send that man away mam. Send that man away. We don’t want him here.’ So our, poor Albert had a job to get, Robert rather, to get little Harold to accept him but that’s it, you see that’s what would have happened with a lot of little kiddies wouldn’t it because you see the parents, the father would be away and that would be it, you know. When you think about it. So of course we weren’t so bad then. We got, went to live in 2 Barrett Street, you see and that and that is just a field today. Our Simon had to go to Bolton. He wanted to see a bike. He’s nearly fifty you know, me grandson. Like Michelle. And he what’s the name, there that’s Michelle’s wedding up there. And he comes and looks after me and everything you know. Takes us out and all that and I’ve got into to all the bi-cycling things that he does on telly. Yeah. So that’s what we did and I tell you then we were put in for, my sister did it for her to get the money for her house and then she rang me up from Old Trafford when they come to live in here and she said, ‘Oh they’re paying out. You’d better send mam’s papers in and also put your own in to prove who you are,’ and I did and they all come back and it said sorry but you’re not the next of kin. Well who the hell was the next of kin? I mean there was only me and I put down you know my marriage licence I sent, and my birth certificate so we never got a penny of it.
CH: Your mother didn’t get anything either.
IH: No. Nothing. Because it was her papers I sent in ‘cause she’d passed away, me mam had, by the time they paid out. She’d passed away in 1948 and it was getting on to fifty something when they paid out so me mam never got a penny for a three bedroom beautiful house that she had. Yeah. And I mean if you look at it, it tells you how much she would have got. Eighty eight pound for a three bed house but we didn’t have any money you see with the war you see. So, and I think we got five pounds to buy clothes for me and her ‘cause all we had was what we stood up in. We got one or two clothes from the Red Cross that was really very nice and that ‘cause I always wore Deanna Durbin hats. I loved 'em. Oh I did. And I got a lovely three quarter coat off them and that and I had a, like a maroon dress I’d bought, I managed to get and I washed this coat and it come up beautiful. Well I was queen, I’ll tell you [laughs]. I used to put this coat on and me Deanna Durbin hat, me handbag and it was lovely.
Because you see my first boyfriend was killed in the war. He was a messenger boy when it started. Biking from where he lived up at the Crescent at er, near Salford Royal Hospital they lived ‘cause that nurses place there that was bombed you know, they was all killed. All the nurses in it and they got a plaque on the hospital wall with all the names on it and Jimmy lived up there. I never met his family ’cause we didn’t in them days. You didn’t go, you know. And I tell you from being, you know, what, I must have been fourteen and he was about sixteen. Course he was going from post to post with messages in the war when, you know, when the sirens went and so of course he got his calling up papers and he went into the Royal Wiltshire[?] Fusiliers, Jimmy did and we used to write letters to each other and of course then he came home on embarkation leave. Me mam left us in, mam never met him. She used to see him on the bike because Nora did. Nora used to say when Jimmy Splinters and her get married we shall have a great big do in this street. Always called him Jimmy Splinters and of course he came home on embarkation when we were living in Old Trafford at 2 Barrett Street and we went to see Honky Tonk at the Gaumont cemetery, cinema rather in what’sit, in Manchester we did and he said, ‘Oh I wish I could stay with you all the time.’ I said, ‘Like everything else lad,’ I said, ‘You’ve got to do, you’ve got to go.’ And he said, ‘I’ll write soon as I best know where I’m going.’ Well of course he ended up at Burma didn’t he? And then of course he got killed. So our Bett, er, our Michelle does a lot and she said, I said I wish I knew if he was buried ‘cause I always felt he might have been killed in the jungle and left there, you know. And I thought if I know he’s buried I’ll feel better about it ‘cause I still to this day go down to our church on Remembrance Day and put a cross for him you see but I let our little Georgia ‘cause the school comes as well. We have it in our church on the proper day, the 11th, and so of course our Jenny used to take it off me and go up when, you know when they used to put the cross, you know, put the wreath up and now our Georgia does it for me. Took it up, you see. So Christmas, not this Christmas gone but Christmas before, our Michelle said, ‘Oh nan,’ she said, ‘I can’t take you to Japan,’ she said, ‘I haven’t the money,’ she said, ‘But I’ve got this for you’ and she brought me the photograph of the cemetery where Jimmy is in. Would you like to see it? Just switch that off then.
[recorder pause]
I met my husband because he was stationed at Manchester you see at the time. On the Kings Road Barracks, that’s right, Kings Road Barracks and that’s how I met him you see ‘cause I met him through our Elsie, you see. My cousin. That was our [Nita’s?] godmother. She died at twenty five, you know, of rheumatic fever, our Elsie did. She never married. She was engaged. And then he died not long after. Her boyfriend. He didn’t want to live without her. He laid across the coffin. He didn’t want them to bury her in it. He really was in a state he was. Anyway, as I was saying that em, she introduced me to Stan and of course I didn’t take him home or anything and one night our Nellie came home and said, ‘there’s a good film on at the picture house.’ I can’t remember what they called it in Old Trafford. So I said, ‘oh.’ She said, ‘Shall we go?’ And so I said, ‘Oh I can do,’ ‘cause it was a night I told Stan I didn’t come out you see. You get found out you see and so therefore I go in with her to the pictures and I never saw him near the barracks ‘cause it was next, near to the pictures and of course we went in to see this picture and came walking out with our Nellie and he spotted me and he shouted so of course I looked around and our Nellie looked at me, ‘Who’s that?’ I said, ‘Just a soldier.’ I didn’t know what to say to her you see. And so she said, ‘Well you’d best go talk to him [unclear].’ You know what mam would be like.' So I said, ‘Alright, I’ll go and have a word with him.’ He said, ‘I thought you said you didn’t come out on this night.’ I said, ‘We don’t reckon to do,’ I said, ‘We reckon to do the washing,’ I said, ‘but it was our Nellie wanted us to go.’ So he said, ‘Oh alright then.’ So I said, ‘I’ll see you another night.’ So that was it. Of course you get a lecture then from an older sister don’t you? Honest to God. ‘You’re too young to be having boyfriends.’ I thought, well what wrong, harm is there, I said, ‘We’re not doing anything wrong.' I mean we only went to the pictures or something like that because we didn’t have any money hardly in them days. I mean I only got ten shillings a week and me mam used to take it and give you a shilling back and that’s all I had there. I used to give her that back sometimes and that but when you think about sometimes these things you know if you’ve got a bigger sister they want to boss you about and that, you know. And that’s how I met Stan. And then of course later on he used to come and see me mam and that, you know but me mam never wanted me to marry him. She’d have let me marry Jimmy because he lived where we did, Salford but she didn’t think it was right to come all this way out here to another place, another country, well it wasn’t another country but you know the older generation looked at it like that. Anyway, she did ‘cause she came for a weekend to see his mam and family near Waddington. Of course his mother was a, what was it, how do I say it? That’s not being recorded is it? Oh Christ I’d better not say it.
Other: You can say it mum.
IH: No, she used to go out with some of the airmen. Dad was there. His dad. Oh yeah because when they went out for a drink me mam was there with them you see and me mam was talking to the old, the old man was talking to her and anyway he said, ‘She thinks I’m bloody daft.’ He said, ‘She thinks I’m blind but I know what she’s up to,’ you see. Because she had two that didn’t belong to him but he accepted them [unclear]. Yeah. You know, that’s how it was. So of course that was awful in mam’s eyes so she didn’t want me to marry Stan and, ‘And if you go to live in Lincolnshire,’ she said, ‘Don’t you get like that.’ I said, ‘Mam I wouldn’t dream of it.’ She played hell because of that and that’s why she did. It was nothing against him himself. It was because of his mother and how she carried on, you know. Yeah. I mean I was dumbfounded. I couldn’t believe it you know that the old fella accepted it. I don’t think my father would have. Christ I don’t think so. Oh I couldn’t’ see me mam anyway. Because me Aunt Lena was a bit like her, me mam and there was another lady called Mrs Delaney. The three of them used to go out on a Sunday to the Regatta for a drink Sunday dinnertime ‘cause dad had done dinner and all that you see and they used to call them the three merry widows. Well they wasn’t really you see [laugh] ‘cause there was only Aunt Lena who hadn’t got Uncle Jess and that, you know, for year’s ‘cause she had about nine children me Aunt Lena and they’ve all gone, well they must have done. Must have all gone the same. Yeah. But you know when I think about it you know, you know she was quite alright with Stanley but I did tell her, I said no way will I go to Lincolnshire while my mother lives and that and of course Anita was born when mam was there at 2 Barrett Street, you see ‘cause I had her at home ‘cause I’ve got, I paid two guineas for the midwife, you know, in them days. Oh yeah. I’ve got the receipt in that box. Yeah. Two guineas. Paid the midwife for our Anita ‘cause that’s what you did in them days you see ‘cause if you went in hospital you hadn't the money to pay so you had them at home and you had a midwife come. Yeah. She was born on the Sunday. There’d been a thunderstorm the night before and mam said that’s what did it [laugh] ‘cause you see when I first started they said oh you’ll have it about the 12th of September. So anyway as time went on she kept popping down and seeing if, ‘What are you playing at? Are you keeping it?’ I said, ‘Yeah [laugh].’ Anyway, I didn’t. They got the dates wrong and she was born on the 29th and it was a Sunday and the night before you see, our Thomas, that was one of my sister’s sons ‘cause they used to come and stay with gran you see and he was all excited ‘cause he thought I would have it on his birthday the day before but it didn’t. She come on the day after. They used to pull her about on this stool and all sorts they did, our Margaret and our Thomas. Yeah. They were harmless [unclear] those two. Mam used to, when they were at Salford me mam used to give them their dinners you see while our Emily went to work ‘cause her husband was a brickie. I had two brother in laws that were bricklayers, our Betts husband and Tommy, our Emily’s and they didn’t work in the winter you know in them days when it was bad weather. They were off, out of work, you see. And so Jim went to Carborundum then down at Trafford Park and that and he was alright then, you see, but Tommy stayed as a brickie you see but they used to go and do what they called foreigners[?]. You know, they used to go in furnaces and things. They used to be emptied out and done. They’d have to go inside sweltering, sweltered they were when they let the fires out to repair them inside, you see. It was the only way they could do them. So I thought my God they used to have to take clean shirts with them because the shirts and things would be that wet you could have wrung them out, you know, when they were inside these things, furnaces sort of thing what they had to repair.
CH: Did you say your husband was in the forces?
IH: Oh yes. Yeah.
CH: Can you tell us a little about your life together when he was in the forces.
IH: Yeah well you see after we got married he, they got moved which is of course happens, you see and then of course he used, we used to have to write to each other then and he was up at the top of Scotland, Stan was, looking after the bombing they had to get these bombs on planes and all sorts ‘cause as I say it was called Mossban[?]. Well there’s no such place as Mossban so you see they must cut out all the names up there right in the top of Scotland. He said it was bitter. Bitter. The weather. And they used to sometimes have to sleep in tents up in Scotland. Yeah. Oh he said it was freezing and of course sometimes a bloody bomb would go off and kill soldiers and they had to go around picking the pieces up and he only told me it once he said, and I knew it was something because he didn’t sleep. He was tossing and turning and I knew there was something going on and I said to him next morning, I said, ‘What was the matter with you?’ ‘Oh nothing.’ ‘Yes there was,’ I said, ‘Because,’ I said, ‘You couldn’t sleep.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I was never going to tell you but,’ he said, ‘That’s, these things happen up there,’ he said. ‘Many times the bombs go off. One of us is always blown to pieces,’ and they used to have to pick the pieces up to you know for them to bury them then you see. If the parents wanted them at home it was alright. They used to go home in a coffin. They never saw them. Otherwise they were buried up there. Right at the top of Scotland it was, you know. And I thought, God, it must have been terrible having to go picking up pieces mustn't it? When you think about it and that. Of course he was in civilians when we went to whatsit to live here. We went to live with his sister in law at Waddington and his brother was the baker there at Waddington. Henry was lucky. Henry went in the air force but he was stationed, he went straight to Canada in a cookhouse there. He never saw the bloody war because he never did no firing, no bombing, nothing and he was there all the years so he was very lucky and that, you know and when I think about it. It was Ethel’s fault. Ethel was sick of him not coming home so she went and complained to the commanding officer at Waddington camp and anyway Henry ended up coming home. He wasn’t very pleased. I think myself he had a woman there to be honest the way he went off. You know he really was mad ‘cause he was enjoying himself in Canada you see. Yeah. Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Irene Howard
Description
An account of the resource
Irene Howard grew up in Salford and describes her life there before the war. During the war she worked in a factory and as a fire-watcher before being called up. She served as an Air Raid Precaution Warden. She describes being bombed at home, trapped and rescued, during the Manchester Blitz in December 1940. She describes the death of her first boyfriend, how she met her husband, the birth of their first child and their eventual move to Lincolnshire.
Creator
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Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-12
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Janet McGreevy
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:55:59 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHowardI170112
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Salford (Greater Manchester)
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
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1940-12-22
1940-12-23
Air Raid Precautions
bombing
civil defence
firefighting
home front
love and romance
memorial
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/284/3440/PJonesS1602.1.jpg
cd8000972997724f8d73f70892695f1f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/284/3440/AJonesS160111.2.mp3
d436a91b68c003aa309ec404d0f2e6ff
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Jones, Susan
Susan Jones
Sue Jones
S Jones
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Susan Jones (1923 -2017), and a photograph. She worked at A V Roe, Ivy Mill, Failsworth throughout the war from the age of 16 to 21.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jones, S
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GR: You can even tell us what your first Manchester United match was as well.
SJ: Oh.
AM: In a minute.
SJ: Well I’ll tell you something now my husband, eh, go on. We’re getting too carried away.
AM: We are aren’t we? Let me stick that somewhere where it’s not obvious. Right, so today is Monday the 11th -
SJ: Yeah.
AM: Of January.
SJ: January.
AM: 2016 and this is Annie Moody on behalf of the International Bomber Command and I’m with a lady called Sue Jones today in Failsworth near Manchester and Sue is going to tell us her story and if you would Sue, going right back to the very beginning you told me you were born in 1923. So where were you born? What area?
SJ: Ardwick, Manchester.
AM: in Ardwick. Right.
SJ: And unfortunately I was about four year old when we had to leave Manchester because we lived in Viaduct Street and opposite was a railway station and you know the sulphur fumes and that got on my brother’s chest and we had to move. So my grandma lived in, my mum’s mum lived in Failsworth. Well Failsworth then was just a little village, right and it was, the air was purer and the doctor said, ‘If you don’t get this lad out of this, you know, area, he won’t live to be that long ‘cause he was very, he was a fourteen pound baby when he was born. Yeah. So, and he suffered with his chest you see.
AM: Right.
SJ: So that’s when we come to live in Failsworth. And I’ve been at Failsworth since then.
AM: Ever since.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: How many brothers and sisters have you, did you have?
SJ: Well my mother had eight children and they were five sisters and three boys.
AM: And where did you come in that?
SJ: I was the eldest of the lot.
AM: Oh Right.
SJ: I was the little mother. Right and there’s Rosie, she’s fell -
AM: We’re just exclaiming ‘cause the doll’s just fallen on my head but I’ll be fine. What did your mum and dad do, Sue?
SJ: Well my mother never worked obviously in them days.
AM: No.
SJ: They didn’t work when they had children and when they got married they didn’t work. My dad worked. He came out the army ‘cause he was in the Royal Horse Artillery, came out of the army and worked with horses on the railway. On the railway, you know the railway yard.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: And then he left there and went to the post office and he finished his days at the post office.
AM: Right.
SJ: Manchester.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: In Newton Street.
AM: The big one in Manchester.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: I know exactly which one you mean. Yeah. Yeah. What sort of house did you live in?
SJ: Well we lived in a few houses you know. It was just a two up and two down and then as my mum started having the babies we had to move and get a larger one, you know, three bedroom but at first we all scrambled in together. There was two in a bed, you know and not like today when you can have your own bedroom and your own bathroom sometimes you know but they were good days. We enjoyed them but we always, we always got the childhood diseases you know. We got everything that was going and my mum said to one of the doctors down there in Manchester, ‘Why is it my children always get everything that’s going? And those little ones next door, you know, in the next street they’re running about with nothing on their feet, and their noses are running and everything,’ you know and he turned around and he just said one sentence. He said, ‘You keep them too clean.’
AM: Too clean. I thought you were going to say that.
SJ: Yeah. He said, ‘Let them rough it.’
AM: so you’re not immune to all the dirt and -
SJ: Exactly.
AM: [Grub?] Blimey. What sort of thing, when you said you had good fun and you were playing outside and that, what sort of things did you play at then?
SJ: Well we just played with a ball. We didn’t, never had any money hardly you know because in them days I mean my dad was working, he was, when he started at the post office he was on a better wage but it was only about two pound odd a week you know and we just played. My dad made us a lot of toys with wood ’cause he was good at carpentry and he used to keep and breed, linnets and canaries, my dad and he had them all around the wall you know. Unfortunately, I opened the door once and let one out and he never got it back again so I was in the bad books for a few weeks after that.
AM: When you say all around the wall you mean in cages.
SJ: In cages.
AM: In cages.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: Right. Linnets. That’s got a really nice singing voice hasn’t it?
SJ: Yes.
AM: A linnet.
SJ: You don’t hear linnets now do you? You hear canaries but you never hear much about linnets do you?
AM: No. So where did you go to school? What was your school called?
SJ: Well my first school was Burleigh Street School in Ardwick.
AM: In Ardwick, Yeah.
SJ: And then of course we moved up here and I went to St Mary’s Road. It was a big school there and I was the top in the school there and I passed to go to the, what they called the Central School, you know. I don’t think there was, there were grammar schools but they weren’t like the schools what they are today.
AM: No.
SJ: And I passed to go to the one overhead at this school and it was, they called it the Central School but you see my mum couldn’t afford to let me go because you had to have hockey sticks and you know.
AM: Uniforms.
SJ: And my mother couldn’t, well we didn’t have any money you know but she was a good mother, a good parents we had. So loving and we were brought up you know –
AM: Proper
SJ: To respect people and everything. We had a different bringing up then what they are today. I think they let the kids grow up too quick today. The children, you know.
AM: So you didn’t get to go to central school then?
SJ: No.
AM: What school did you move to then?
SJ: Well we moved then to Holy Trinity. It was a church school, just Failsworth. The school’s knocked down now obviously but the church is still there at the bottom of Broadway and I loved it there.
AM: Did you?
SJ: Yeah but I was marking time for two years there because I was, I’m not boosting myself you know but I was very clever at St Mary’s Road. You had to be. It was forced into you, you know, then. I mean if you only turned your head then you got a bad mark and after, on the Friday you always separated in to four different houses. I was in Beech. Beech house and if you got, if you just turned your head like that - bad mark and if you got three or more, three or more bad marks - cane, you know. And your name in the punishment book.
AM: Even the girls. Caned where? On the hand?
SJ: Yeah. Cane or the strap. And then my report came back saying she’s very intelligent but what did I say it was?
Other: Insolent.
SJ: Insolent
AM: Insolent.
SJ: So when my mother’s mother, my grandma got hold of this and she was a very self, she self-read you know and everything. She was very clever my grandma and she looked at it and she said, ‘Insolent?’ She said, ‘Have you been giving cheek Susan?’ I said, ‘No grandma,’ I said, ‘You daren’t. You daren’t even speak, you know, to the teachers.’ You were frightened to death of the teachers then. ‘Right.’ so of course she went to the, yeah, she went to the headmaster, Mr McCabe. I’ll never forget him. ‘What do you mean by this? What’s the meaning of this? Has she been giving you cheek?’ ‘Oh no Mrs Cooper,’ she said, ‘She’s very very intelligent but,’ she said, ‘It’s the way she looks at you.’ So my grandma, she said, she was amazed, she said, ‘How dare you put anything like that in front of a girl’s report, my granddaughter’s report. Alter it,’ she said, ‘Or I’ll have you before the Manchester Education Committee.’ Ooh she was there and I think we all take after her in a way, you know. We will not stand for anything like that. So we altered it. And then and I cried when I left that school because I was fourteen years old. I was at, I left school on the Friday and on the Monday I was in the co-op laundry. Working.
AM: Right.
SJ: At 8 o’clock in the morning.
AM: How did you get that job then?
SJ: Well one of our, in the same street where we lived, we’d moved from my grandma’s then to another street and the lady in there was on the union, you know, she was a union member and she got me the, ‘cause in them days you could go in one job, out of one into another, you know. There was no problem. Well I didn’t like it at the laundry so I got a job in the cotton mill and in fact it was this one here, what is Morrison’s now. Morrison’s.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: Supermarket.
AM: Yeah. I’ve seen Regent Mill as we came down.
SJ: Oh that was farther up.
AM: Yes. Nearer to -
SJ: Farther up the road. No this is Morrison’s here.
AM: Right.
SJ: It’s the big supermarket as you know and it was there I worked in that cotton mill.
AM: So what did you do in the mill?
SJ: I worked in the card room. Do you understand it?
AM: I do.
SJ: In the card -
AM: I do.
SJ: Room. Well you know the cards?
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Well I had fifteen of them. I had thirteen of them Egyptian cotton and the other was American cotton. Well of course the Egyptian cotton when the war started like, they had to shut the mill down and that’s when I got a job at Avro’s.
AM: That just, just I’ll come on to Avro’s in a minute. Just going back to the cotton mill. What was it actually like then? Was it as noisy everybody says?
SJ: Oh very. Very. My mother didn’t know because she had two brothers who worked in the spinning room there.
AM: And that’s even noisier with the shuttles going backwards and forwards.
SJ: And they came home to my mum and they said, ‘What are you letting our young Susan go to work at the mill for?’ my mother said, ‘I didn’t know she even worked in the mill.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘I didn’t tell you mum because you wouldn’t have let me go,’ I said, ‘But it’s more money,’ and that’s what I went for, the money, because I used to tip everything up you know. So they said, ‘Well get her out. She’s no rights to be in there,’ but I loved it in the mill. I did. I only worked there twelve months.
AM: Camaraderie, was that the word?
SJ: Exactly.
AM: You were all mates together.
SJ: All my working life has from, up to Avro’s was all camaraderie.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: You know it was, I’ve loved my working life. Well I’ve had to do because I mean there are been some places what I’ve worked at like Ferranti’s. Do you remember Ferranti’s?
AM: I do.
SJ: Well I worked there, soldering and could I solder? Could I bugger, excuse the language. I kept, everytime, kept melting the wax
AM: We’ll come –
SJ: You know.
AM: On to that in a bit. So you’ve worked in the laundry.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: You’ve sneaked off to the cotton mill without telling your mother.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: And you worked in the cotton mill twelve months.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: So what year are we now? ‘38?
SJ: ‘39.
AM: We’re up to ’39.
SJ: Yeah. Round about near as 1940.
AM: Right. Ok.
SJ: I think it was. Just before I started at Avro’s.
AM: Right.
SJ: So out, what, how did you move from the cotton mill to Avro’s then?
AM: Well this, it closed down and we had a choice of going in the forces, going to another cotton mill or going in munitions. Well I wanted to go in the navy and my mother wouldn’t let me go.
AM: Why did you want to go in the navy?
SJ: Well at that age I thought it was –
AM: See the world.
SJ: Exciting and see the world.
AM: But at this point we knew war was coming.
SJ: Yeah and well I dearly wanted to see a bit of, you know -
AM: A bit of excitement.
SJ: Exactly. So mother, she wouldn’t let me go so that was the end of it so of course I plumped for munitions. I didn’t want to go back in the mill again.
AM: No.
SJ: I plumped for munitions and I went and started at the Ivy Mill in Failsworth and they had to do a rota, like, nights and days. Well the first month I was on days and then I thought my friend was, who I’d made friends with there she was going on nights. Well I was only sixteen and my foreman said, ‘What do you want to go on nights for? I said, well I said, ‘Betty’s going on. I want to go on with her.’ He said, are you, ‘How old are you?’ I said, ‘I’m nearly eighteen.’ I was a good liar I’ll tell you. And he said, ‘Well alright,’ ‘cause they didn’t bother then so much like they do today. It’s all health and safety now and everything isn’t it and they were, the union wasn’t good then. Anyway, it was only in its infancy then the union. So, and I started there. I started on nights and I continued for five years solid.
AM: Right.
SJ: And the first twelve months I worked twelve hours a night for seven nights a week and no break.
AM: Blimey. Tell me what -
SJ: All we got was once a month we got what they called a late night. Instead of starting at 7 o’clock I started at half past nine so we used to go in the Church Inn then and we used to have, my mam used to give me two bob, two shillings to get my dinners and what I used to do I used to get four port and lemons which was six pence each. Six pence for a port and lemon.
AM: Which was a lot of money then.
SJ: Yeah. So I used to get them and then I’d go singing after and then I went, I went in Avro’s after. I weren’t drunk. I were just a bit merry.
AM: A bit laughy.
SJ: A bit merry.
AM: Go back to the beginning at Avro’s then. So you went, you went to work at Avro’s. What, what was it like and what did they do? What was the factory like?
SJ: Well there, that’s the factory there.
AM: Right.
GJ: That’s the –
AM: I’m looking at an empty picture of it but I’ll take a photograph of it afterwards.
GJ: Yeah. That was the actual [third floor] -
AM: So it’s just a huge -
SJ: On the third floor.
SJ: It was just a huge floor.
GJ: The same as it was during wartime.
AM: Yeah just a huge, steel framed building with pillars.
GR: What was your actual job when you started? What was you doing?
SJ: Learning to, on the ribs of the undercarriage door. I don’t know if you understand that.
GR: Oh Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: Before your skins were put on.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: I was learning to rivet and drilling, you know. And then I I moved myself up then to completing it.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: You know, I was a very quick learner.
AM: I was going to, how did you learn, how did they teach you, you know? What was your first, tell me about your first, can you remember your first day at Avro?
SJ: Yes. The first day I went I was in short socks, short white socks, a wrap over pinny -
GR: Short white socks.
SJ: No not like that, you what [laughs]
AM: We’re looking at a picture which all which I’ll also take a picture of.
SJ: If my dad would have seen me like that. Oh no.
GJ: She’d have got sent home.
AM: We’re looking at a cartoon of a Rosie the riveter now. So short white socks but a pinny.
SJ: And a wrap over pinny.
AM: Right.
SJ: And I looked around and my hair was long but it wasn’t curly. It was straight. I’m telling you these things ‘cause I altered afterwards. When I’d been there six weeks when I got back on nights. I wore the dungarees like, like in there you know. And I did my hair, I used to sleep in forty, forty -
AM: Curlers.
SJ: Steel rollers. I can’t even sleep in plastic ones now never mind -
AM: Tell me about your rollers after. Go back to your first day. So you got your pinny on and your white socks.
SJ: And I was taken up to the supervisor’s office. The foreman’s office. And he said, ‘Right. Go over there and there’s a chap there,’ I forget his name now, I can’t remember his name, he said, ‘He’ll teach you. Show you what to do.’ So of course he sat me on the bench. He said, and you, you know, he put the rib of the undercarriage door. He said, ‘Now I’ll show you.’ I had a gun and do you know what I mean?
GJ: Rivet gun.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: I was just going to say that -
SJ: Riveting gun.
AM: But, but explain to me for the recording what that was like then.
SJ: Well it was a long metal thing.
AM: Right.
SJ: And he had a sleeve on the end because I had to do mushroom head rivets and countersink.
AM: You’ll have to explain that to me.
SJ: No. Well you’ll, he’ll explain it to you won’t you cause he knows don’t you?
GR: No. No, you explain.
SJ: Well, mushroom head was like a mushroom head you know.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: A mushroom.
AM: Yeah I do. Yeah.
SJ: And it was about that long.
AM: Right.
SJ: Right. And then the mushroom head was on the end of it.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Well to get the countersink there was a flat head and they had it, they did that for speed apparently. I believe so. They told me that anyway. And they used to put a sleeve what they called a thing what used to go over the what can I, what can I say, over the, where I’m pointing.
AM: Yeah. So -
SJ: The thing on the end. You see I’ve forgotten a lot of this. You know. The names of these and that.
AM: Oh that doesn’t matter. It’s just what you remember.
SJ: Yeah well anyway I put the sleeve on you know and I was I was the quickest riveter on nights ‘cause like I say I was pretty clever at that.
AM: You were intelligent. Yeah.
SJ: I used to pick up things very very easily you know and I stayed on nights then for five years. So the first twelve months of course we didn’t have a break only then till half nine and then after that they knocked the Saturday nights off and then didn’t we have a ball on the Saturday nights believe me. And then we found out that, you see, I was only getting three pounds three and six pence a week because in the engineering you didn’t come into your top money until you was twenty one. So, you see I wasn’t on top money.
AM: And were you all, presumably you were nearly all females as well.
SJ: Well no. When we went on nights half of them were men.
AM: Were they?
SJ: And they resented us at first when we first when we went on because they thought we were going to try and take their jobs off them.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Well, I mean how could you do? There was a war on. Everybody had to do a job, you know.
AM: Did you get paid as much as them?
SJ: Oh no.
AM: No, I didn’t think you would.
SJ: They were on top money them, you know. Men.
GJ: Yeah, but you still did the same jobs.
SJ: Hmmn?
GJ: You still did the same jobs.
SJ: Oh Yeah.
AM: That were why I were asking really, it’s just -
SJ: No. We did the same job.
AM: It was an accepted thing that the women got less than the men regardless wasn’t it?
SJ: Well I think they do now. I don’t think they’ve altered much really but anyway and you know most of them wanted me to work with them because I was that quick. I was getting, we was sort of weeks in front with our jobs you know. I mean the foremen and the rate fixers didn’t know that or else they’d have timed the job again you know.
AM: And everybody else would have had to go quicker.
GJ: They used to make her go in the toilets. The ladies. When the rate fixer came around.
SJ: Yeah.
GJ: ‘Cause she was too fast.
SJ: The rate fixer.
AM: Because she was too fast.
SJ: You know to come and time a job, a new job like said, you, and I’m going to, I’m going to swear now. Oh no I won’t swear ‘cause I’m -
AM: Oh go on. You can.
GR: Go on. You’re allowed.
SJ: My mate used to say, ‘Piss off into the toilet. Go on. Go and piss off in the toilet,’ he said, ‘And stop there till I come for you,’ and they got the slowest riveter to time the job you know.
AM: Right.
SJ: No, so no I loved it there. I did really.
AM: Gary, you’ve probably got better questions than me about the riveting and everything.
GR: Well obviously the Lancaster didn’t come along until about 1942. Can you remember what the first planes were?
SJ: The first one I worked on was the Anson. Avro Anson.
GR: Avro Anson. Yeah.
SJ: Right and then the Manchester came.
GR: Of course ‘cause it was Avro. Yeah. Then the Manchester.
SJ: And that was no good so -
GR: Yeah.
SJ: The Lancaster was born out of the Manchester.
GR: Yeah because the Manchester was just a two engine.
SJ: Yeah.
GR: Bomber although it was the -
SJ: A bomber.
GR: Same shape as the Lancaster.
SJ: Yeah. Similar.
GR: Then they put the extra two engines in it and that so –
SJ: No. It was oh it was my baby that. I loved it. I loved my Lancaster. And -
AM: If you, were you always working on the same bit or did you work on all different bits of it?
SJ: No. I worked on the undercarriage doors. I worked on, they had the bomb doors there for a few weeks but they found out like that it was too big, too long so they moved it to Woodford.
AM: Right. In Cheshire.
SJ: And I worked on the trailing edge. That’s on the wing.
GR: On the wing. Yeah.
SJ: And the ailerons.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: You know the ailerons.
AM: Yeah that’s the, even I know what that bit is.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: The flap things.
SJ: And the nacelle. You know, the nacelles.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Covering the nose.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: And things like that.
GR: And was that all in the same factory?
SJ: Oh yes.
GR: So you -
SJ: You see the reasons I worked on them was sometimes if you got a shortage of the undercarriage doors they would put you on another job. You know, until you know the shortage -
GR: Yes. Yeah.
SJ: Of stuff. So, oh I really loved, I loved it there. I did. Honestly.
AM: What, when you say, why did you love it? ‘Cause of the people or the work or -
SJ: Well the people and then and not only that they moved these girls and men from different parts of the country, redirected them into munitions [excuse me] and we had some girls from Newcastle and Durham and oh what lovely people they were. They was, you know really lovely people. I love the Geordies.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: You know, ‘cause they are such a lovely people.
AM: Where did they all stay if they brought them down?
SJ: Well they had different people on registers what would -
AM: Taken in.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Take them in. Lodgings you know.
AM: You know, going back to the Lancaster then so you were working on very specific parts of it.
SJ: Yeah.
AM: When did you see your first one? Full one.
SJ: Well sometimes they used to run trips out to Woodford ‘cause they assembled them at Woodford.
AM: Right.
SJ: And every now and again like you didn’t get any time off. If you wanted to go it was Sunday afternoon before you started Sunday night work. So we went and we went on these trips sometimes and I had a little inspector. Jimmy he was called. Oh he was a swine him. Absolutely he was. Everything, he, ‘that won’t pass. Take it back and do it again,’ you know and I’ll tell you what we did with him one time. Anyway -
AM: Hold that thought.
SJ: Anyway, we went to Woodford and, but Jimmy he says to me, not only me, there was a few of us, you know, he said ‘Now, I’m going to try and get us in a Lancaster just for taxiing up’, you know which he did and we got a taxi ride you know. When I tell people this I say oh no we didn’t go on any bombing missions. We only just taxied up, you know and I daren’t have said anything to anybody till the war was over and everyone had died. You know what I mean. And oh and I’d have got into trouble ‘cause I did get in trouble you know. I’m a criminal actually.
AM: Come on. Tell us.
SJ: Have you ever known anybody late on nights?
GR: No.
SJ: No. Well I was ‘cause I used to do my hair up and put my make up on you know and got, you know -
AM: All this comes back to the rollers and everything -
SJ: Exactly.
AM: From the long straight hair then.
SJ: Yeah when –
AM: When did all this change then from long straight hair and white socks to something different.
SJ: Well I’d seen the girls what were there and I took notice of them. They were all dressed like, in glamour although we was working. We didn’t wear turbans or anything like that like she did. You know what I mean. Oh you’d spoil your hair if you put a turban on, you know. Anyway -
GJ: You wore scarves though didn’t you?
GR: Yeah.
GJ: Sort of thing like.
SJ: No I didn’t.
GJ: Oh I thought -
SJ: No. I didn’t wear anything on my hair. None of us did. Only one woman and well she was a lesbian so I mean -
GJ: You’re being recorded.
GR: It doesn’t matter.
AM: That’s alright.
SJ: Well it don’t -
GR: Speak as you find.
SJ: She used to get up on the stage singing, “oh Johnny. Oh Johnny,” you know and she always wore trousers and -
AM: Oh Johnny, oh Johnny.
SJ: And walked about and her hair cut like a man. You know.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: I didn’t know what a lesbian was, me, at that age. Did I heck. Somebody told me later on and I said, ‘Well what’s a lesbian? What are they?’ Anyway, and they told me and I said, you know, I said, ‘Oh alright then.’
AM: Come back to your hair.
SJ: Anyway -
AM: I want, I want to know about this metamorphosis. Is that the word?
GR: Yeah.
AM: From your white socks and your long straight hair to your curlers.
SJ: Well then I -
AM: and I’ll bet you had makeup on as well.
SJ: Right. Well, I was made to wear dungarees.
AM: Right.
SJ: Right. Well that was the start. And then, and the reason I put that scarf on then was just it was part of the makeup of like when we go to Saddleworth.
AM: Yeah. From your re-enacting.
SJ: Yeah for re-enacting.
SJ: And then I started putting these curlers in my hair and I started doing my hair ‘cause it was long you know and I had all curls down here and a big bunch of curls here. I looked in the mirror and I thought, ‘Well you will do me now.’ you know.
AM: How old are you at this point?
SJ: Sixteen.
AM: Sixteen. Yeah
SJ: And nothing fazed me. I wasn’t frightened of the bombs or anything like that ‘cause I, I’ll tell you another story after but where was we now?
AM: So you’ve got curlers in.
SJ: Oh so I’ve got curlers in.
AM: Did you wear makeup? When did you start putting makeup on as well, lipstick and -
SJ: Well you know I was part of a gang then with the girls like you know so I –
AM: What did your mum think of that ‘cause that must have been a big change?
SJ: Well my dad used to, didn’t allow us to wear makeup or anything like that. And lipstick. You know what I used to do if I was going out on the Saturday night?
AM: Put it on -
SJ: I used to put it in -
AM: In the shed at the end.
SJ: In the toilet
AM: How did I know that?
SJ: Yeah. And I’ll tell you what. Before -
AM: And wipe it all off before you came home.
SJ: Yeah and I tell you I used to pull the chain in the toilet and put my hankie in it, in the water and wipe it all off. That’s how I had to do. I know it sounds, it sounds, you know, awful but these are the things you had to do. [laughs]
AM: So there’s about three, three stories you said you’ll come back to. Tell me what you did to Jimmy.
SJ: Oh alright then. Well we was that fed up with him. He was on nights you know and we used to brew up for him so I said, oh I said, ‘I’m sick to death of him.’ I said, ‘I know what I’m going to do.’ so I got a packet of Epsom salts and I put them, I put them in his brew and bags of sugar, stirred it up and he drank it. Well for the next six nights he wasn’t in work. And we were going-
AM: Do you know what Epsom salts do don’t you?
GR: Yeah we do.
SJ: And we were going around saying, ‘Oh don’t tell anybody. If we got found out they’re going to hang us. We’ve murdered him.’ you know, and we was terrified. We was walking on eggshells for a week. Anyway, he came in on this seventh night and we said, ‘Oh,’ and we’re all, five girls there was, all went out together you know and we all gathered around him and we said, ‘What’s the matter Jimmy? Are you alright?’ You know, ‘What’s happened?’ you know. He said, ‘What’s happened?’ and I’m going to swear again but it’s not my swearing it was his, he said, ‘It’s that bleeding cheese and onion pie what I got in the canteen.’ [laughs] Well, honest to God we daren’t say anything at all. We kept it to ourselves until we left you know and I never told anyone because I thought if it gets back to him but honest we were frightened.
GJ: Would have been hung.
SJ: Terrified we was. The police are going to come. They’re going to arrest us. And then another story what I told was when I started [laughs], do you want a tissue?
AM: Thank you.
SJ: And I’ve told you before have you ever known anyone what’s late on nights.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Well I was, well I got told by the management, my manager, he told me and then I got a verbal warning and then I got a written warning and I had to go before the magistrates in Manchester ‘cause this is what happened. You was on war work. You was -
AM: Yes.
SJ: You know, everything had to be so, you know you couldn’t be late. You couldn’t do this, you couldn’t do that and I come before this magistrate. A big fat fellow. I’ll never forget him. And I’m only sixteen and I’m stood there. You know and I must have been insolent then because I didn’t care. You know, I just stood there waiting while he said something and then I could go home. He said, ‘Susan’ (my single name was Madeley, you see, he said, ‘Susan Madeley.’ I said, ‘Yes sir. He said oh so and so and so and so about being late and things like that and he said, ‘Do you know there’s a war on?’ I said, ‘Of course I know there’s a war on.’ I was dead insolent you know. Dead cheeky. I said, ‘Of course I know there’s a war on,’ I said, ‘I work in munitions.’ he said, ‘That is the reason why you should be on time.’ He said, ‘I’m going to fine you five shillings,’ he said, ‘And if you come before me again,’ he said, ‘I’ll put you in prison for seven days.’ so from then I had to be early every night. I had to make sure, you know.
AM: I’m laughing but I’ve never heard of anything like that before.
GR: Yes.
SJ: Yes. Oh yes.
AM: That you would actually end up in front of the magistrate.
SJ: You understand don’t you?
SJ: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Have you heard that?
GR: Yeah it’s like a soldier absent without leave. It’s, it’s in war work
GJ: War work.
GR: War work.
GJ: Yeah.
GR: But how late was you? I mean if your -
SJ: It was about a quarter of an hour, half an hour, half an hour.
GJ: Half an hour.
SJ: Yeah.
GJ: That is late.
SJ: Well -
GR: What, every night?
SJ: Oh no. Just about a couple of times a week, you know. Caught.
GJ: She had to make sure she did her hair before she went out to work.
SJ: Oh Yeah I mean I had to go looking -
GR: Good.
AM: You know, right, all this thing about doing your hair and everything ‘cause all the girls did but were you looking at boys at this point?
GR: That’s a nod of the head [laughs]
AM: That’s a nod. But in a much more innocent way, I imagine than than we -
SJ: Well they weren’t the boys because the boys was called up.
AM: Right.
SJ: You know I mean my brother our Ned he went in the navy. He was only eighteen. I mean he went in a boy and came out a man. Fortunately he came home but they were boys. To me they were elderly. They were in their forties or fifties or something
GJ: Oh yeah.
SJ: What couldn’t be called up?
AM: Right.
SJ: You see.
GR: Because that’s what I was going to ask you. The men you was working with in the factory they were older men.
GJ: Yeah.
GR: Who, so there were no younger men.
AM: For whatever reason weren’t -
GR: And they’d all been called up.
SJ: There was just my, my mate there. Cliff. He was, he was about twenty but he was waiting to be, he was waiting to go in because he said, ‘I’m going in the air force,’ you know.
AM: Right.
SJ: You know.
AM: And for quite a lot of people like that they had their initial interview and all the rest of it but then it might be quite a few weeks or even months before they got called up for their training.
SJ: Yeah exactly.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Or they could go voluntary.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: You know well he was waiting he was going voluntary you know but no and we had and another time we went, used to be able to take wounded soldiers out. St Marys Hospital, you know, they had a scheme there you know the wounded soldiers what came home anyone could take them out for the day.
AM: Right.
SJ: So of course us girls decided we’d take them out like you know so, but before we could take them out we had to get some money to take them out so we had raffles. And oh we raffled one of my friend’s umbrella. We had nothing to raffle anyway.
AM: And you tipped all your money up to your mum didn’t you.
SJ: Yeah exactly.
AM: So you didn’t have any money.
SJ: And we’d nothing to raffle so somebody else give us a duchess set like you know
AM: Like a mirror and a brush and that. Is that a -
SJ: Yeah. Things like that you know so we’d raffle that and then we thought well I’ll tell you what we’ll get a hundred Gold Flake cigarettes ‘cause the canteen used to get a ration of cigarettes you know. So they only had eighty so we said we’ll have to make, give us the full strength then you know the Capstan full strength. So we shoved it in the middle of the gold flakes because they were a similar colour like. So we got the money. We got eleven pound odd which was a lot of money then. Anyway, we went to St Mary’s and we got there. They said they weren’t doing them anymore. [laughs]. We had all this money. So we thought, ‘what are we going to do?’ so we went in Yates’s and -
AM: You went drinking [?]
SJ: We had gin and limes and we got a small bottle of, we were spending, we spent all the money.
AM: How many of you were there?
SJ: There were -
AM: Ish?
SJ: About eight of us.
AM: And you spent eleven pound.
SJ: And we got bottles of gin to bring home.
AM: Ah. Right you didn’t drink it all at once then.
SJ: Oh we had enough.
AM: I was going to say you’d never have got out of there.
SJ: We’d had enough. And we used to come home on the car and there was a lady one of the conductors and we always called her Greer Garson ‘cause she looked like her and she knew where we worked you know and one of our girls was going up and down the -
GJ: Tram.
SJ: The tram singing like, songs obviously, everybody was joining in, you know. Well we got -
AM: You can just imagine them can’t you?
SJ: So we got in there and honestly we crawled up the stairs.
AM: What did you -
GJ: In work, at Avro.
AM: What did you have, oh in work? You went to work after.
SJ: Oh we went to, well we had to do.
AM: You’d be back in front of that magistrate if you’re not careful
SJ: I know. I’d have got put in prison I’ll tell you. So we gets there in work and of course when my mate sees me he said, ‘Piss off into the toilet. I’ll cover for you.’ Well, I was as sick as a bloody parrot. Oh I was sick that night. I could not, I couldn’t do any work. We were miles in front mind you. You know it wasn’t as if we were behind.
AM: It’s good you were good at your job.
SJ: Well, we said, ‘What are we going to do?’ Of course they didn’t say anything to us that night ‘cause -
AM: There’s no point if you’re all that drunk.
SJ: ‘Cause we were all the same. Anyway, the next night when we went in they said, ‘How did you get on with the wounded soldiers?’ ‘Well, when we got there they wasn’t doing them anymore.’ ‘So what have you done with the money?’ So we said, ‘Well we went in Yates’s’. Honest. You know honestly.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: We went in Yates’s and you know we had a bit of a whatsit you know.
AM: A bit of a knees up.
SJ: Well we got sent to Coventry then for about three weeks.
AM: For spending everybody else’s money that they’d all paid for raffle -
SJ: Yeah.
AM: Raffle tickets for.
SJ: Well what could we do? We didn’t know who’d bought what and who’d bought, you know. I mean we couldn’t go and divide well we could have done. We could have divided the money out but we didn’t.
AM: For people listening.
SJ: We had no money left anyway.
AM: For people listening to this tape in years to come tell me what Yates’s was like.
SJ: Oh.
AM: In comparison to a posh pub nowadays what was a Yates’s wine lodge like?
SJ: Well it was a long bar, you know and our, we just stood there like, you know. I think we sat down. I think we had to sit down actually because we couldn’t stand up at the finish you know so we had to sit down and we just sat there and everyone was enjoying theirselves you know and people were singing because although there was a war on I mean people’s natures never altered. I mean there was no, you know, people sort of stuck together and helped one another and the same myself nothing phased me. It was my parents what did all the worrying. I didn’t do. The only thing I worried about was when the bombs, not the bombs, when the planes came over we used to work through, through the sirens until the imminent danger. That was when they were overhead.
AM: Right.
SJ: Well then we had to go to the shelter. Well they were cellars and there was cinders floors and whitewashed walls and going up the walls were big cockroaches like that and when I looked at these I thought I’m not sitting in here with that lot you know so I joined the first aid and I got a medal for that after the war. It’s only a bit of tin anyway isn’t it?
GJ: that’s nice. It’s a civil defence medal
SJ: I know. Well
Other: The defence medal.
AM: You got the defence medal.
SJ: Aye. I never wear it. Anyway, I don’t know where it is now. I don’t know anyway.
GJ: On your coat.
AM: So instead of being in the cellar with the cockroaches -
SJ: I joined the first aid and the civil defence. Like you know, civil defence and fire watch and then I had to go on the roof with my stirrup pump.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: That was one of my jobs and I thought, right I was more frightened of the bloody.
AM: Cockroaches.
SJ: Cockroaches then what I was with the bombs.
AM: How often -
SJ: Do you know what I mean?
AM: Did that happen, that there were there bombing raids over?
SJ: Well.
GR: This was during the Manchester blitz wasn’t it which was 1940/41?
SJ: Well no, I wasn’t there then.
GR Oh.
SJ: No. I wasn’t there at Avro’s then but they did try to get Chadwick and you know Greengate?
GR: Yeah.
SJ: They did try and get, they did, they had a gun on the roof or something.
GR: Yeah, ‘cause the Luftwaffe targeted the docks in Manchester.
SJ: Yeah.
GR: And they were after the Avro works.
SJ: Yeah.
GR: ’Cause, you know there were quite a few of the works dotted around Greater Manchester.
SJ: That’s right
GR: So yeah.
SJ: Yes. We had a bomb.
GR: Did they ever come close? Did they get you?
SJ: Yeah, no, while I was up there?
GR: Yeah.
SJ: No. No. No. I was stuck there with my stirrup pump.
GJ: Yeah.
SJ: And my water and had nothing to do.
GJ: They were in the area though because -
SJ: Oh yes.
GJ: There were places in Oldham that got bombed.
GR: Yeah. Yeah
SJ: They dropped one in this next street.
GR: Yeah.
GJ: In the next street in Ardwick.
GR: Yeah. And they bombed Old Trafford.
SJ: Oh I know. I know. I know they did really. I was really upset about that.
AM: Tell me about football then. We were talking before we switched on about, about you went with your mate from Avro, did you say? To your first match. Or -
SJ: Who did I go with?
GJ: Not Cliff.
SJ: No. I think it was a lad what I was knocking about with at the time. I think he was -
AM: Define knocking about with.
SJ: He was a United supporter you know. So of course it suited me that so we went and funny enough it was raining but that was my first match and I put my umbrella up. [laughs] Well, you can imagine what happened. The fellas at the back they were get that f-ing thing down and I turned around, ‘Who do you think you’re talking to,’ you know. Oh this fella said, he moved away. We had to stand up then you know. There was no seats. He moved away from me. He said I’m not standing near you while she’s talking like that and he’s talking like that to her but that was my first -
AM: Match.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Mistake really. Putting an umbrella up but then of course I met, Avro finished then you know and -
AM: When did Avro finish?
SJ: 1945.
AM: Right.
SJ: That was the end of the war wasn’t it?
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Well -
GR: And then they scrapped all the Lancaster’s didn’t they? When the war finished.
SJ: Oh.
GR: There was thousands of -
SJ: I know. It’s terrible.
GR: Lancasters after they brought all the prisoners back and used them for shuttle services but they just -
GJ: Yeah.
GR: They scrapped them.
SJ: Mind you they did the Manna
GR: Yeah. They’d just been -
SJ: In Holland, didn’t they?
GJ: That’s right. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Operation Manna. Yeah.
SJ: So, but after that I went, I went back in the mill for about three weeks because I was accused of flirting with one of the women’s husbands and I weren’t flirting with him. I was just talking to him.
AM: I was just going to say and did you?
SJ: Yeah. I was just talking to him. Anyway, I left there and then I went to, where did I go then, I went to -
GJ: You went to Morgan Evanite.
SJ: Lilly works.
GJ: Oh Lilley works and then Morgan Evanite. Yeah.
SJ: And then I went from the Lilly works to Morgan Evanite doing, making battery boxes for cars and things, you know.
AM: And you mentioned Ferranti’s as well.
SJ: Oh, yeah.
AM: You were doing some welding at Ferranti’s.
SJ: I worked at Ferranti’s. That was where I made the, I’ll have to get a new set of teeth. No, I made the biggest mistake there. I worked in the railway room there where they were doing the soldering you know but I worked at the Hollinwood one and then I worked at the Moston one and there they always asked you had you had worked at any of the others. Well if you said yes they would have looked up your record so you say no you’ve not worked at anybody else’s, you see. So that was another lie. I was a good liar you know. I was really. And then I worked on making, drilling and putting screws and, not screws. Yeah them -
AM: Bolts.
GJ: Fuses.
AM: Bolts.
GJ: Fuses. No.
SJ: No. You drill them. Yeah screws, don’t you, you drill the screws. I was doing that when they knew I’d worked at Avro’s with the driller they put me on.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Fire, you know, fire places because we used to make them for the Queen Mary. You know the fire -
AM: Yeah.
SJ: The fire things, you know.
GJ: What? Fire guards.
SJ: No. Fire -
AM: Fire hydrants, fire -
GJ: Extinguishers.
SJ: No.
GR: Fireplaces.
SJ: You know fires, fires, the fires you know electric fires.
GR: Electric fires. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Oh Right. Got you.
SJ: I was trying to think of that.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: Electric fires. Yes we used to make big ones for the Queen Mary.
AM: When did you meet your husband? You know you talked about knocking around with boys.
SJ: Oh. Well yes but there was one thing about it in my day you went with a lad, I went with quite a number of lads. I’ve been engaged four times. [laughs] that was difficult.
AM: Did you get to keep all the rings?
SJ: Yeah. I pawned them after.
AM: Go on.
SJ: No. What it was, the lads were going abroad and you know and they said -
GR: Yeah.
SJ: We want someone to come back to, you know, and unfortunately two of them came back home at the same time so I had to stay in and I sent my mum out to them you know and she said, ‘No she’s not in love. She’s working,’ you know. But what you had to do. And I felt sorry for the lads you know and they said well let’s get engaged, you know and they were only cheap rings. You know what I mean they weren’t, ‘cause they never minted any 22 carat gold. No. I mean when I, when we got married I mean I had one what had been pledged. You know a 22 carat.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: Because there were no, they were 9 carats.
AM: So you got engaged four times. What happened to the four blokes then?
SJ: Well I never seen them again. Only them two. So I just imagine that they got killed.
AM: That they didn’t come back.
SJ: You know.
AM: Yeah.
GJ: One of them was a GI wasn’t he?
AM: Oh an American.
GJ: A GI.
SJ: Oh aye.
AM: Did you go dancing? Palais and all that.
SJ: We used to get, when we was on nights. Tuesday afternoon and Thursday afternoon we used to go to the Plaza and the Ritz.
GR: The Ritz.
AM: Oh the Ritz.
SJ: And that’s where all the Yanks were, right. And we used to have a good dance with them, you know. And I met this bloke and he was, he come, he told me later on like that he come from Paris in Texas and I wasn’t ready for settling down at all me you know what I mean. I used to think there was something wrong with me because I was never in love with anybody. You know what I mean, like you’d hear some girls saying, ‘Oh I think he’s gorgeous,’ and all this that and the other you know and I used to think, ‘he’s alright,’ like, you know. I didn’t like anyone who wore grey socks and I didn’t like anyone who -
GR: I’ve got black on.
SJ: [laughs] Oh it’s different now. No. No. If I seen a lad with grey socks he turned me off. Anyone who didn’t have nice teeth. No.
AM: Oh I’m with you there. I like nice teeth.
SJ: Yeah I couldn’t stand that. But you see in them days going out with a lad you could go out with a lad three or four weeks and you’d never get a kiss off him. He’d shake your hand and say, ‘It’s been lovely. Can I see you again?’ They don’t believe me when I say that. Today, I said, you only meet them one day and they’re in bed the next day aren’t they? But you see you didn’t do things like that because on the back of every, in Piccadilly there used to be toilets downstairs.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: Right. Because I worked, another story was I worked at Lewis’s? You know Lewis?’
AM: I do. I do.
SJ: When we knocked the Saturday night off I used to finish work on the Saturday morning, take my mum a cup of tea up, get washed and changed and be at Lewis’ by half past eight, quarter to nine and I used to work in the haberdashery. We all did. All the girls did for more money and we worked then till 6 o’clock. Now, having no sleep from the Fri, you know, early Thursday night to the Saturday night and then from when we finished at Lewis’ we used to go to the Piccadilly, a wash and brush up and put our make up and go and have a drink on Rochdale Road you know. When there was any beer to be had. We used to go pub crawling, you know. You used to have to take a glass with you so they’d think you’d been there and been drinking you see otherwise if you just went in for a drink they wouldn’t serve you because they’d know that you hadn’t been drinking there all night. Oooh I could go on and on and on.
GR: Brilliant.
AM: So, so you’d been out with all these various different lads.
SJ: Oh yes.
AM: You’ve never fallen in love until
SJ: Well I worked -
AM: Sorry. You go on, your work, keep going.
SJ: I worked at Morgan Evanite. It was a rubber works making, like I said them rubber things for car engines you know.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Batteries. And this bloke come in and must have started like you know and I said to this mate of mine, I said ‘Oh look at him over there,’ I said, ‘He’s, isn’t he lovely, him.’ do you know? So she said, ‘Oh here she goes again.’ I said, ‘I’m going to talk to him,’ So I went and when we were finishing work he was starting night work you see so when we were getting ready to clock off I just moved up near him and he was sat down so I said to him, ‘Oh hiya,’ I said, ‘what are you thinking about?’ he said, ‘I’m thinking about the fun I’ll have when I get married.’ So I said, ‘Oh’ I said. Are you getting married?’ So he said, ‘No.’ he said, ‘I’ve not met the right one yet,’ and I thought, ‘Well you have now [laughs].
GJ: You have now [laughs].
SJ: So from then on he said when he come on days he knew where I worked then and he said and, ‘I started taking notice of you,’ you know and of course he asked me out then and I chased him till he caught me. [laughs] Oh I loved him. Oh he was a lovely man.
AM: What was he called?
SJ: He was called Albert. Albert Jones and he was on his demob leave. He’d been in the navy.
AM: Right.
SJ: You know and he’d been all over the world. He’d been on the Russian convoys. He’d been on Malta convoys. South Atlantic, you know he’d been on that one as well. He wasn’t on D-Day cause he was always abroad somewhere else. Oh he was a lovely man and I loved him. You’ve heard of, I don’t know whether you believe in it or not, love at first sight.
AM: Yeah.
SJ: ‘Cause I fell in love with that man.
AM: Well it obviously was cause you’d been engaged four times. You’ve been, you’ve never seen what everybody else was going on about and then all of a sudden, I’m having him.
SJ: Yeah. That’s it exactly. I said well you have now, he’s ticked most of the boxes. He’s not married.
AM: Not got grey socks on.
SJ: Not engaged, he’s just come out of the navy, you know.
AM: Right coloured socks.
SJ: Oh yes black. Black socks. But no we -
AM: So you got married. When did you get married then?
SJ: No, it was, I’ve had a very colourful life but a clean one if you understand what I mean. It was -
GR: Yeah.
SJ: It was a clean life because I mean, you didn’t, you didn’t sleep with them then like they did now even that Yank he was, he used to take me to the officers club in Deansgate you know and he used to just bring me home, bring stuff home, give it to my mam you know like tins and stuff what we couldn’t get and he, he really, he was a really nice bloke. In fact I had a letter. He was engaged when back home and I had a letter from his young lady. She was called Helen. And she said, ‘I’d like the truth,’ like you know, ‘if you tell me if there’s anything between you.’ and of course I thought, right away I answered it, you know and I said, ‘No. No way.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘They come over here and their lonely, you know for home, you know,’ like you do and it’s just company, you know. I said, ‘No. He’s a very nice person.’ and there was no way would I, I’d marry a Yank and go. I was a home bird me really. You know I’d never go to America me. Never. Although we’ve been to Russia haven’t we?
GJ: Ahum.
SJ: And Malta. We’ve been most. And Australia we’ve been so, you know, I mean I’ve been well travelled. Do you know what I mean?
AM: How long were you married for? I take it Albert’s -
SJ: Well.
AM: Not with us anymore.
SJ: No.
GJ: Yeah. He’s been gone twenty eight years now.
AM: Oh Right. Quite a good while now.
SJ: No. We was married, he died in the June didn’t he? And if he would have lived up to the December I’ve just celebrated my anniversary now, 20th of December.
AM: Right. Just before Christmas.
SJ: Just before Christmas. It would have been sixty eight years.
AM: Right.
SJ: But he died just before our ruby wedding. So yes and I talk to him and I play hell with him sometimes you know and say what are you doing up there? You should be down here with me, you know.
AM: Enjoying yourself at these re- enactments.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Have you got any more stories to tell me?
SJ: Oh I don’t think so. I’ve wrote me, I’ve wrote -
GJ: You have. You’ve filmed with Ewan McGregor.
SJ: Oh I’ve filmed with Ewan McGregor.
AM: Go on then.
GJ: At RAF Coningsby.
AM: Oh course he did that thing about the -
GJ: Bomber Boys.
GR: Yes.
SJ: Did you see that thing about the Bomber Boys?
AM: His brother’s a pilot isn’t he?
GJ: Yeah.
SJ: Colin. Oh their lovely lads. Absolutely. They’re just like talking to you. You know, so natural and -
AM: Yeah. Normal.
SJ: Exactly.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Yes they are and we were in there on one of the days. Was it Remembrance Day? And they’d just come out of the Lancaster.
GJ: it was the week before when you filmed with them on the Wednesday before.
SJ: Well, anyway, whatever.
GJ: Yeah.
SJ: Yes that’s Right it was wasn’t it and they did the, and Colin had just flew the Lancaster and they’d just come in to land and whatsthename was with him, Ewan and he’d seen me. I was just stood there like that looking at it, you know and he clapped eyes on me and he come running across. Ewan give me a big hug and then Colin come and give me a big hug you know and I thought, I looked at this woman and bet she thought, ‘Who’s she? Is she one of his grandmas?’
GJ: It was Remembrance Day
AM: It’s the woman who built this bit.
GJ: And that was after filming. The weekend after.
SJ: That’s Right.
GJ: They chauffeured us down to Coningsby to film ‘cause my mum,
GR: Yeah.
GJ: They’d got me on the phone to me ‘cause we’re re-enactors and we do a lot of stuff like that and they got on and said, ‘Could your mum teach? We’re doing a film “Bomber Boys.” We want your mum to teach one of the stars to rivet,’ but we didn’t know -
GR: Yeah.
GJ: About Ewan McGregor then did we?
AM: So did you then? Did you teach him how to rivet?
GR: Yeah.
GJ: Yeah. Showed them how to do it.
SJ: Yeah I sat them there and Norman, we had a laugh with him, Norman, one of the crew up there, you know, we see him every year he said, ‘I’ve got to put this microphone’ I said, ‘well where do you want it?’ He said, ‘I want it down there.’ I said, ‘Well put it up here like that,’ you know. So he said, ‘Do you mind?’ I said, ‘Oh go on. You’ve seen it all before. Go on,’ and like that and he put it up there you know and the microphone and I’m sat down and I got hold of this gun but oh honestly it was so heavy to me then.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: To what it was then, you know years ago.
AM: You didn’t have muscles like that.
SJ: Yeah. That gun there. And I said, ‘I’ll tell you what,’ I said, ‘You sit here.’ I said, ‘You do the gunning,’ I said, ‘And I will put the the rivets in,’ and Norman was at the back doing the rivets, you know, with the flat lump of iron.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Flattening them at the back. So there we was and it was like that and he said, ‘I’m going to take that,’ he said, ‘back to Los Angeles with me and put it on one of my motorbikes.’ I said, ‘Ah that’s nice,’ you know.
AM: And is that on the film? I’ll have to Youtube this.
GJ: I don’t know whether he says that on the film.
GR: No.
GJ: But the film shows my mum coming, about twenty minutes into it, “Bomber Boys.”
GR: Yeah.
GJ: She’s on his arm coming into the hangar at Coningsby and looking up and she’s touching the Lancaster.
GR: ‘Cause we watched the film and I think that’s the one with, John Bell was there wasn’t he that day? Because John Bell was in the film.
GJ: I can’t remember.
GR: I think Frank Tully is. Frank Tully.
AM: I think it might have been recorded over a few days.
GR: And there was about six, yeah they did because Frank Tully went for two days.
AM: Right.
GR: So yeah.
GJ: Yeah they did different days of filming.
GR: Yeah.
GJ: ‘Cause they filmed at that pub. The -
SJ: Bluebell.
GJ: The bluebell.
SJ: Yeah. Well my name’s up there on the ceiling.
AM: Because?
SJ: They got me to get, get up and sign on the ceiling near Prince William. Next to Prince William’s because he went in there.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: And all the pilots and all the lads who had been in the Dambusters.
GR: Yeah.
SJ: Them what was still living like all signed. So I said, ‘How am I going to get up there now?’ You know, they’ve no steps.
GJ: You said you’ve got Stan who was the previous owner of the Bluebell before he retired a year or two ago he said, ‘Come on,’ he said, ‘Rosie we want your signature up there ‘cause you worked on the planes,’ you know.
SJ: So they humped me up there and I looked around and I said, ‘Take your hands off my bum.’
AM: On that note, thank you.
Dublin Core
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AJonesS160111
Title
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Interview with Susan Jones
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:03:33 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Annie Moody
Date
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2016-01-11
Description
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Sue Jones was born in Manchester. When the mill where she worked closed at the beginning of the war, she went to work for Avro. She worked on Ansons, Manchesters and then Lancasters. She describes the camaraderie on the factory floor. She also found herself in front of the magistrate because of being late. She was more scared of the cockroaches in the shelter than the bombs, so she volunteered for first aid duty and civil defence fire watch.
Coverage
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Lancashire
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1940
Anson
bombing
civil defence
firefighting
home front
Lancaster
Manchester
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/3453/AMcClementsI150921.1.mp3
495f8692ab783942e0003d27bb29680a
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McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McClements, R
Requires
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1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Iris McClements. Ex-Royal Observer Corps. And I was stationed in York 1944. Previous to that we’d lived in the country to, I think, up about the age of fifteen I recall being in the so-called Home Guard. I don’t know whether I was old enough. I do remember the stirrup pump and that was my little war at that time. Later I joined the, what was called the WJACs which was the Women’s Junior Air Corps. A grey uniform. I can remember learning the theory of internal combustion engine. I don’t recall the date but it’s in my diary that I was very quickly made a sergeant. But memory’s fading now up to the time when I had to go in to the war. My age. I was first of all going in to what was called a reserved occupation which was driving. And my father had such confidence in us that he said what we could do, whether you could or not. And what I did was I went and have a driving test. I hadn’t been in a car previously and — but we were all connected with the driving trade so maybe it was instinctive that I should go on the test. Found myself on — not a car but a lorry and that driver took me to a hill where he said you normally use the matchbox behind the wheel to see if he took off without dropping back. I passed that but I had trouble with the gears. And he said I can see you’ve been used to a syncromesh gearbox which didn’t mean a thing to me. Anyway, I got the job but as I hadn’t already got my driving licence and that was my first time on the road. He never knew that. We decided it was better to go and join the Observer Corps. Because that meant that I could live at home. Home being a boat on York river at that particular time. The Royal Observer Corps was affiliated to the RAF. We got handed on into our area which was North Leeds. The outposts where two men plotted and as far as I recall on our table it was where the three points met. That put us where our aircraft was. I’m always amused to think that we were actually plotting aircraft across an area which wouldn’t take seconds now. Had hostile. H for hostile. We’d have a block of aircraft a mile wide which was in the centre of all the airfields in Yorkshire. As I recall they would go around in a circle. I could be wrong. Until they gathered up and this was probably two fifty plus on our table heading for Reading where I understand they took off to go over Europe. We were on multi shifts which I don’t recall being a problem except you got a long weekend. Or a short one. Consequently, when York was bombed I was on my day’s sleep and never knew anything about it. The aircrew would come in to York where I met my husband who was [pause] the only things in those days were cinema and if I look at my diary it was cinema nearly every other night or dancing. And we [pause] he would come in to York with the crew. I don’t think we ever felt in any danger although York was absolutely full of airmen and the things you hear about happening these days. We were never aware of any being afraid of anything. I think they just used to go around in their day off. Seven members. Catch the bus back. And then if they were on stand down they would come in to York. And I can remember being caught having lemonade in the pub my parents frequented. The landlord said he’d seen me in the pub. And feeling very guilty he did add that I was only having lemonade. But that was the situation in those days and eventually we met. And I have, after the war, I was only in the war period of a year but I can remember desperately rushing back. First of all, we, having been in the motor trade found that there was an opening to secure the bikes that a lot of Canadians would have to travel around. And so, we, it put us in the direction of actually relieving them of their bikes as they were going back and putting us in business. So, I do recall dashing back between buying to get my weekly wage. I thought because I’d only worked half a week I thought two pound fifty was worth having. And really this was the sort of the end of the war. The beginning of my career.
Other: Excuse me.
IM: Just that we were in a position to befriend Canadians or whatever. And they I think were reasonably well provided for. But I can recall one Canadian being invited for tea. And I, with the family, if you heard that they had a certain things in the shops. It might be bananas. I don’t think they actually were. I don’t think they were bananas but this is an example. The shop had opened because there was baking that day and we went and queued to buy what you would call a tea plate size apple pie because the Canadian was coming for tea. And it happened to be the plate that was put in front of him and to our horror he devoured the lot and it was meant to be shared between the family [laughs] We never told him. But that was it. You queued. There were, the shop might get a pair of shoes in and you would buy them even if they were a half a size too small. Or anything else that you queued for. I don’t remember being particularly sorry for ourselves in any way. We didn’t — I don’t recall missing anything. But inevitably we did hear and did in fact witness a plane which crashed in the centre of York onto a housing estate. And I can remember having a discussion which bicycle we could go — to see if we could help. Not to witness but to help. And my father got the bike. It only had one pedal. Consequently, he arrived on the scene just in time to get what probably was, whatever the explosion was. Bomb or otherwise. He fortunately wasn’t going around the corner when it happened I think. He got away with it. But there’s still evidence of where that plane crashed in the middle of York. And of course, I’m going to lighten it to the fact that my husband had a similar situation. Icing up. I never understood why York iced up during the daylight actually. I witnessed it because it was daylight. In his case he had a different situation I think which he didn’t talk very much about but he didn’t tell anybody else either. But I think it was a miracle that he’s alive because they had various situations where they were — and I’m also have to go back to one thing he left out about the, his aircrew survived the war except for one person. And the reason that I refer to this is because we, or my father was involved although he didn’t know. The man decided he would just go on a trip which was going to be an hour or so and as he happened to have a family at Melbourne. And they were reported returning to Melbourne but whether they went down in the Humber or what there was never any trace of them. But I go back to the fact that my husband-to-be sneaked my father’s car out of the garage to take the —
Other: Widow.
IM: Wife. To the station to put them back out of the area. My father never knew about that. But then towards the end of war we had VE celebrations we had on this boat that we had. It seemed, it seemed we had half York on deck. I don’t know whether there was any danger of it ever capsizing or not but the — we had the decorations. The council put photographs which I have of the boat being illuminated and celebrating the end of the war. And strangely enough I don’t recall my husband-to-be being there on that occasion. He’d probably gone back to Ireland by then. That was where his home was. But on the other hand he decided to come back and as already stated he was employed by my father until the time that we [pause] until we went in to business on our own accord. In Wakefield. Later, when the VJ celebrations came on I was unfortunately in bed with chicken pox and so that was the end of my war. Interestingly, my husband’s place, where he flew from, isn’t a million miles away and on his eightieth birthday my son arranged for a helicopter to land in the front garden. Take him over York. Over the airfield where he flew from, for his celebration. Now, that airfield they’ve got permission to restore the control tower. And all our memorabilia, 10 Squadron, is there for volunteers who are restoring this property. It can be visited but by pre-arrangement. Ok.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank Iris McClements at her home for the recording on the 21st of September 2015. With great thanks we do.
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Interview with Iris McClements. One
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Iris McClements was a member of the Women’s Junior Air Corps and then the Royal Observer Corps. She met her husband on one of his visits to York.
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Julie Williams
civil defence
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Royal Observer Corps
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/334/3495/AStavesS160423.1.mp3
79fd6dc3485907437b012845478e0c3f
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Staves, Sheena
S Staves
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One oral history interview with Shena Staves.
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2016-04-23
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Staves, S
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PC: Hello, it’s Saturday the 23rd of April 2016. My name is Pam Locker and I am in the home of Mrs Sheena Staves, of ******* Cottingham, Hull. And, can I just start Sheena, by saying on behalf of the International Bomber Command Memorial Trust an enormous thank you for agreeing, to, to talk to us. Ok, so um I know that the main story that you want to talk about today is your experience as a young person of the bombing in Hull. So, would you just like to tell us a little bit about your early life?
SS: From before the war?
PC: Whatever you want to say, you know, where you lived, your siblings and so forth.
SS: We lived in Hoven [?] Road, Hull. My parents, two brothers and a sister. Both my brothers were involved in the war, one in the Navy and one in Bomber Command. My sister wasn’t she um, there you go, and my father was a fire watcher as well. I can remember the day war broke out and that evening, that night, the sirens went for the first time, everybody shot down into air raid shelters or under the table, somewhere like that, and my sister had hysterics. But I didn’t. That was just the first night and then it was peaceful for quite a while, until they started bombing.
PC: Where did you sit in the family? Were you —
SS: I was the youngest,
PC: Right.
SS: The baby.
PC: And how old were you in 1939?
SS: Well, I would be just about twelve. Yes, twelve a month after war broke out. My school was Newland High School, all girls, and it was immediately evacuated to Bridlington, but I didn’t go. I came to Cottingham School and although only being eleven, twelve I was put in the top class. And, if the sirens went I had a bolt hole, somebodies home to run to because there weren’t any shelters as early as that. But then my school came back and we went in the morning to Newland High School and the whole grammar school boys had the school in the afternoon. We didn’t mix at all, but then it gradually got back to normal and we were there full time. But um, whereas before the war you hung your coats in the cloakroom, no, they had to be hung in the school, in the classroom, and you didn’t have to change your shoes either, because, of course, if the sirens went you had to shoot out the air raid shelters, and again um —
PC: So, these were all the children whose parents had decided that they didn’t want to evacuate them?
SS: Well, a lot of them did evacuate to Bridlington, but when the school again, after the Christmas, I think they nearly all came back, they didn’t want to be, I think that probably Bridlington was as dangerous as Hull, being on the coast. But everything just sort of went back to normal, you, you, nobody panicked, we weren’t that sort of family, or people, so err, school was just back again, I think we missed one day, when the water mains were bombed in the street, so we couldn’t go that one day, but that was all we missed. We had an air raid shelter in the garden and we just went there, night after night, and it was, the blitz was on when I was taking my school leaving certificate, but you got no allowance for having been up all night being bombed. Where now they get an allowance if they’ve to a cough and a cold, I think. We got no allowance for that, but fortunately I did pass them all, but in the middle of the mathematics, arithmetic exam the sirens went and we all shot down to the air raid shelter and the teacher said, ‘don’t you talk about it,’ we don’t talk about it,’ [laughs]. We all sat there, no light, darkened air raid shelter, mud floor, [whispers] ‘what did you get for that?’ [laughs], typical. And then we went back to finish the exam in our classrooms. Nowadays that would not come off at all, but, I can very well remember going night after night into the air raid shelters, and after the third time of having gotten out of bed and going to the air raid shelter, my mother made me stay asleep and she stayed in the air raid shelter with me, while my sister was in the house on her own. Not, it was an awful problem for my mother, I think, to know whether to stay with me or my sister, but we came through it but it was unfortunately taking my exams during that time, it was a big strain being in and out of bed all night, then go to school the next day as normal. And, of course, I did lose some friends in the war, the desk next to me was just empty when you got to school and you would realise what had happened, but nobody seemed to panic over it, It was one of those things, and there’s a house at the corner of National Avenue and Bricknall Avenue, who had a huge garden at one side and that’s where my friend lived, and they took a direct hit and they never re-built that house, it’s a garden now, but when I go down there I often think of her, Brenda —
PC: And how old was she?
SS: She’d be about thirteen I think, thirteen, fourteen when the blitz was on. But you just sit in the shelter and listen to the bombs dropping and think well, that one’s missed me, and hope that the next ones do and wondering how my father was doing fire watching, because that was quite a dangerous job too. But, we got through it, you just had to. You know you see the craters and wonder how things had worked out for people and I remember, as I’ve told the girls many times, my grandma, Nana, as I called her, appeared on our doorstep one day, holding, I don’t know what you call them, but you put bottles of spirits in, it had a special name, and that was all she had left of her home, and her living, because she had a little corner shop at the corner of Mayfield Street and, I forget the other one, and she just said ‘I’ve been bombed,’ and that’s all, everything was gone. Her living, she had her handbag fortunately, but there was nothing else there. She stayed with us for quite a while, and then she went back to the West Riding where she had come from and she lived there. Because I used to go and stay with her and one of her sisters, in the Easter holidays and the summer holidays, to get away from the bombing. My parents took me and I used to stay there and I fortunately had a cousin about my age who would help things along rather than just being on my own and not knowing anybody. So, I used to go there a lot [laughs], we used to err, it was a little village called Royston in the West Riding, Wakefield, Sheffield area, and they had two cinemas, one changed three times a week and one changed twice a week [laughs]. Betty and I used to go to the cinema every night [laughs], err because it was safe and it was safe out in the West Riding as well. My mother used to send food parcels sometimes, and one time she sent kippers, well, you can imagine the smell. They wouldn’t deliver them. We had to go to the post office for them and sort of say ‘we don’t know what these are,’ [laughs], they were kippers. You know, it was just the sort of thing you did. You could get hold of anything that was scarce, she would send them to us. I quite enjoyed those holidays. We used to go cycling around the West Riding, with no thought of safety. We used to, if we were getting thirsty, we would go into the pit canteens, all these burly miners there and we would get a drink of something [laughs]. They invariably gave it to us, they didn’t charge us for it. I just think of the difference today when they haven’t got that freedom any more. That we could go cycling around the West Riding, without any worries and without having to think, were we all right and the people looking after us didn’t have to worry either, and I think the youngsters miss that freedom that we had, but [pause], I don’t know, anyway [laughs]. I don’t know what else you want to know, that I can tell you.
PC: When, can you remember the dates of the blitz in Hull?
SS: No, I can’t. I know it was a springtime and it would be about forty, forty-four wouldn’t it be? Forty-three, forty-four time. I connect it with my age, but it would be either forty-three or forty-four it would be, and it was springtime, the worst of the blitz was, but we had bombing all the time, all year round, bombing sometime or other but err.
PC: What every night?
SS: During the blitz it was every night. Night after night after night yes. That’s why my mother let me stay in the air raid shelter, to get some sleep. At other times, it more or less started straight away did the bombing. You’d hear a lot of bombs, don’t know what you call them. There would be five bombs, one dropped after the other, and you’d say. ‘that’s the last one.’ They would drop them in a row, you know, if it was nearby, we’d think thank goodness, it’s missed us, but it didn’t miss many people I’m afraid. A lot of them got it. I think Eastholme got the worse because of the docks, and the manufacturing areas there. We didn’t get such a lot. But I remember my sister cycling to work in the Stoke Ferry area and a bomb going off and she bumped her knee. She fell off her bike and she bumped her knee and I’m afraid she was in plaster for a year after that, something happened to her knee, and they blamed that on the bomb going off and she fell off.
PC: So, it was day time and night time?
SS: Oh, they did come in the day time, yes, yes, day time bombing, but not so much, but err, I’m afraid that sometimes we used to sit and watch the bombs going over, going somewhere else and missing us. But, when they came back from, sort of the Midland areas where there was manufacturing, they would drop their bombs here to get rid of them. They didn’t wait until they got over the North Sea, where it wouldn’t of hurt anybody they dropped them over somebody or other and um, so that was the blitz. It wasn’t a very good time, but, as I say I had a bolt hole on the way home, just where, well it was the women’s hospital on Cottingham Road, half way between Hall Road and the school, and there was a bungalow there that I had to go to if the bombing started during the day when I was coming home or going to school and funnily enough it got bombed, so it wouldn’t have been much good would it? But, I remember going there and, there was a house on Priory Road that in term time when I was at Cottingham School, cos’ they hadn’t gotten any shelters, and if the sirens went, you, you ran home and so I had a house on Priory Road, people my mother knew where to. And they would have to go sometimes, cos’ the sirens would go and you wanted to shelter, and it was a good walk from Cottingham School, to, to Hovan [?] Road, which I did four times a day. But, um, anyway, I got through it. I came through err, it must of formed our natures, our characters I think, a lot, going through all that sort of thing. It wasn’t easy, but you were British and you, and as Malcolm used to say, ‘press on regardless.’ When he was so ill at the end it was just a case of ‘press on regardless.’ It’s there and that’s the sort of thing that the war brings out in you, you’re stoical. And, um, I don’t think there’s much else I’ve got to say.
PC: Did you, as a young person did you, can you remember how you felt, what you thought about the future? It must have seemed relentless.
SS: Um, no, you did wonder what was going to happen after the war, but I think you more or less took things day by day, because during the war you didn’t know whether you would be here the next day, so you just made the most of the day you’d got and didn’t think too far, I mean, I know what I wanted to do and err, and fortunately I managed to do it, but um, you didn’t think too far ahead, because it was not, there was nothing to be sure of. Even as a teenager, you, you felt that even though, you know [pause] I enjoyed my teens, but nothing was permanent. You know, boyfriends were temporary, you met them and then they would be gone into the forces, or they were in the forces and would move on. Nothing was, err you didn’t sort of think this is going to go on for years because nothing did, [laughs], it was temporary. But we got through it.
PC: Mm, mm. And what about the practical things of life, you know, food and —
SS: Well it was —
PC: How did all that work?
SS: Well, it was rationed, of course, you, you didn’t have a lot, and I look back now as a housewife and I wonder how my mother managed but she did manage. My father was a butcher and people used to say ‘oh, well, you won’t be short of meat,’ but believe you me [laughs] Saturday night came and my mother didn’t know what she was getting, she’d just get what was left. So, it wasn’t a case of ‘you’re a butcher, you’ll have steak and chops time you want them’, because we just didn’t, we got what was left of the rationing and food was scarce of course and sweets were unknown more or less, so it was very little. And, of course, clothes were rationed, so if shoes, well yes, so if shoes came in a shop the word went around and you all shot off and got your shoes [laughs], or whatever was coming in because it was all scarce. There wasn’t the temptation of sweets that they have now. You just couldn’t get it and that’s all there was to it. You just accepted it. It was there, there was no use binding [?] about it, we just blamed Hitler and said it was all Hitler’s fault, so we didn’t err —
PC: So, when shops were bombed, I mean, how, was there, because the food, was there some organisation that meant that food could come in from elsewhere, or, how, how did it work?
SS: I don’t know about food, because I was too young to think about that I suppose, and I don’t think the shops my mother used were bombed, except for me nanas. She was, it was just a little corner shop that she had, but um —
PC: Was that your mother’s mum?
SS: It was my mother’s stepmother actually, and as I said she went back to the West Riding, but she had lost her livelihood which was hard because there wasn’t a lot of pensions in those days no.
PC: So, what did you do when you had time off? What sort of things did you do while you were in Hull?
SS: Went to the cinema, and as I got older of course, we went to dances, you went dancing a lot, yes, the Beverley Road Baths, and um, in Cottingham, there was the hall in Cottingham, what do you call it? It isn’t there anymore. Do you remember Christina? [talking to someone else in the room} No? Err, and we, I think we used to walk, I think we used to walk home, with no worry, and err, you would drop a friend off and you would probably end up on your own walking the last bit of the way home, because there weren’t any buses, so you walked. And food was rationed so we were all nice and slim and healthy. I think we were healthy during the war because the rations were a healthy ration. There was enough to get all your nutrition, and err, father of course, grew quite a few vegetables in the garden as well, to feed us. No, any more prompts?
PC: Did you, did you go into the city at all, did you see —
SS: Yes, yes, we —
PC: Do you have memories of what it was like in the city?
SS: Yes, yes. There was one street, I can’t remember what they call it but it was where my mother used to go for cakes as a treat, to Fowlers’ the shop, and it was completely flattened and lost. There was no more of that street anymore and they never re-built it. And, of course, a lot of the shops were bombed as well, big holes in the city. And, where the car park is, down, where the library is in Hull, it was a museum and of course it was bombed as well, so we lost that museum. It was an interesting museum, I remember it. But it was gone.
PC: Did it stay open in the war? Did they move things?
SS: I think they moved anything that was particularly um, valuable or unusual, but otherwise, no, it just got flattened, and that was the end of that one. And they never re-built it as there’s a car park there now and, across the road from that car park, just in front of the new theatre, there was just a façade of some building because it was bombed behind it and there’s still what was a cinema down Beverley Road, isn’t there? That again is just a façade, the rest was bombed. Yes, we did go into Hull, err, but not very much, because I think we were a bit too young to go into town on our own. In those days, they thought you were anyway at thirteen, fourteen but we went to the outlying cinemas the ones that were nearer home, and I think they’ve gone now. I should think they have.
PC: Do you have any memory of what the city looked like before —
SS: Vaguely —
PC: Are there any memories that you would like to share about that [indistinct] —
SS: I can’t remember that much, because at that age, in childhood and that age, you don’t particularly take it in. I was, I can err, remember places being there, the Regal Cinema which is now gone that was opposite the station, the Regal was there and there was a theatre down across the road from there. But they would have probably gone anyway. They were bombed. And of course, if they were bombed during the day there was loss of life I suppose. It wasn’t, it was a good time in some ways because people got together more, they worked together more, they had a mutual enemy and so instead of going at each other they went at Hitler and Lord Haw Haw [laughs]. We used to listen to Lord Haw Haw and my mother used to get so angry.
PC: So, everyone had a radio?
SS: Oh yes, we had a radio, everyone had a radio, I think in those days and listened to the news. I can’t remember listening to anything else, never listened to the children’s programmes, I was too busy reading, avid reader. So, we did go to the cinema, when I was in the West Riding more than anything else, because I certainly wouldn’t have gone into Hull to the cinema at that age, but I did go to the outlying ones. So, you, you made your own amusement I think, a bit more. Played with friends, yes, they would run home if the sirens went, [laughs] wasn’t much fun in that way, but we did have a good time. You know, it was err, I suppose I was lucky having parents that were quite stoical as well and, as I say my sister used to have hysterics at times, but it didn’t last long because my mother used to tell her ‘control yourself’ [laughs]. Well she was older than me so perhaps she realised the dangers more than I did.
PC: So, playing with your friends, where did you play?
SS: In the street. Because there wasn’t any traffic. Err, even before the war we played in the street but during the war petrol was rationed so cars were off the road and we used to play in the street, skipping, quite a few of us yes. I’m afraid I was naughty and used to climb the lamp posts and swing from one of the [indistinct] laughs. And we used to open the little doors at the front, where the men used to read the machines and we used to read them as well. No, it was hopscotch. Skipping, ball and top, ball and —
PC: Did you all play together, boys and girls?
SS: Yes, yes, yes, we did yes. The boys would be nuisance sometimes and we were a nuisance to them sometimes but, yes, you were all neighbours and err, and parents knew where you were and I had one friend whose mother used to blow a whistle when she wanted her to come home. The whistle would go and ‘Lynne you have to go home now’ [laugh}s. Otherwise, we didn’t have watches, somehow, we knew the time to be going home.
PC: So, did you all instinctively meet at a certain time in the day? And then —
SS: Yes, you would just meet in the street you’d see out and —
PC: You’d get up and have breakfast —
SS: Yes, yes, somebody would come and knock on the door probably. In those days, we had ten foots [?} the back of the houses, so somebody would come and knock at the back door for us and we would go out, err, it was a good time in that way, and, as I got a bit older, and when I started having boyfriends it was quite a good time as well. Because, as I said, nothing was permanent so you could just enjoy yourselves, err and not worry about things as the young people do now. I think they worry more than we used to do. But, no the bombing wasn’t nice.
PC: So, if the siren went off you would all —
SS: Go to —
PC: Scatter to your own homes?
SS: To your own place yes. To the air raid shelter yes.
PC: And they were in the garden?
SS: Yes, we’ve still got one.
PC: Oh really?
SS: Yes, yes. A six berth it was. We didn’t come here until after the war of course, but it’s six berth with a light over each bunk wasn’t there. My daughters used to play a lot, but we’ve still got it. It’s still out there. It would take a bit of knocking down I think. They used to knock them down after the war and um, the one we had at my home was knocked down and run over, but we just left that at a storage place. Very useful, but um, it’s still there.
PC: So, where you lived, were there bomb sites close to where you lived? Where you went —
SS: Not far away, no not too far away. The street in which I lived wasn’t bombed fortunately, but there were some, I would say four or five hundred yards away there would be something that was bombed. But we fortunately weren’t, but you could hear them going off not too far away and the earth would shake.
PC: And was there a smell or was it —
SS: Yes, there was a smell, and when I went to Eden Camp and sat in the air raid shelter there I said, ‘Oh I can smell the war.’
There would be, I say after the blitz it would hanging in the air, the bombs that had gone off, the explosions, would, yes there was a smell.
PC: Sort of like cordite?
SS: Yes, I couldn’t think of the word, yes there was a smell. But, um, you accepted it I suppose, and um. I’ve been known to go to the top of Skidby Windmill and watch the bombing.
PC: Really?
SS: Yes, because we were friendly with the people at Skidby Windmill. And they used to watch it, they could see the area where the bombs were dropping as well.
PC: So, how hold would have been then?
SS: Well, it would be about thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.
PC: Mm, mm.
SS: And as I say I think it would have been forty-four when the, so —
PC: How did you feel watching the bombing happening in the distance —
SS: Well err —
PC: Or did you feel detached or —
SS: Yes, I think we did, yes. It was accepted after a while. When the war first started and the bombs started dropping you were err, not really afraid, but cautious and wary of, err, you could hear them getting nearer, the bombs, err, but you just, accepted it, it was there, it was part of life that, it was no use going into hysterics over it at all. It would have done any good at all whatsoever, so you just more or less accepted it. But we the dog during the war, and our bath was one of the old-fashioned ones on little legs, and before the air raid sirens went he would be upstairs and under that bath. Yes, he knew. He would hear the, the aeroplanes coming over and we, if, if it was during the evening we would say, well you know, they are coming, sometimes they flew straight over us and went to further afield, Manchester, Liverpool, but it was amazing how that dog knew. But they do, do, dogs they can hear, yes, they know, and he did. Poor old Frisky, he used to warn us that it was —
PC: So, did you drag him out from under the bath and take him with you or —
SS: He came with us [laughs], he came with us yes, yes, he used to —
PC: So, they would come over one way and then they’d come back again?
SS: Yes, you would hear them coming back and, and as I say if they had any bombs left they would drop them over the Holderness area where the docks were. So, it was —
PC: So, it was sort of double trouble really having —
SS: Well, you knew that they had to come back, so that that you know it was, [pause] —
PC: So, were you able to sleep at all during the night raids? And did you —
SS: Oh yes, that’s why my mother left me, because I was fast asleep in the air raid shelter you see.
PC: Oh, I see, right, right.
SS: Yes, I would go to sleep in the air raid shelter, and when the all clear went, she would, I would go back upstairs, but as I say, after the third one she would leave me, because I was taking exams and she felt I needed the sleep rather than dragging me upstairs again. But it must have been hard for her because my sister was in the house on her own and I was in the shelter. Who did she go with? So, um —
PC: So, did you sometimes have more than one raid?
SS: Oh yes. Oh yes. As I say, after the third one, that’s why I stayed —
PC: Oh, my goodness.
SS: The sirens would go and they would pass over and the all clear would go and you would go back into bed and the sirens would come again, and you were sort of in and out of bed half awake. But mother always had a flask of tea, I think it would be, coffee in those days and a pack of sandwiches ready, and take them into the air raid shelter and um, and stay there as long as we needed to [laughs]. It was part of life.
PC: And then up in the morning and back off to school?
SS: Yes. And, as I say, no concessions given during the exams. You just got on with it [pause] so—
PC: And did you all, when you got to school, did you all talk about the bombings?
SS: Not a lot no —
PC: Was it all part of life?
SS: It was just part of life, and, as I say, if you saw an empty desk, you would think “Oh dear”. And wonder, cos’ not everyone had telephones in those days, and there was no, err, communication like there is now. You would just wonder, you know, how, has that been a fatality, or just an injury or what it was. You would find out eventually, that something had happened. But no fuss made at school. They wouldn’t stand up and say ‘well so and so has been, their house was bombed in the night,’ and that sort of thing. No, no. Now, of course it’s, they view it differently don’t they, but we just got on with it. And you did tend to, at least I did, tend to play in a group, so it won’t as if it was me best friend and I’ve nobody to play with, err or talk to. Because you were in a group and so you just accepted it [laughs]. It was one of those things. It seems awful but —
PC: Not at all. Did you, were you aware of conversation amongst the adults —
SS: Yes, yes, my parents used to talk about the war, and of course, avidly listen to the news and what was going on and err, follow it, with both my brothers being involved in it. My elder brother was at sea and we would follow where he was and what was happening. His ship did get bombed off the Aberdeen, off Aberdeen, off the Scottish coast. His ship was bombed, and sunk, and he got on to a raft, and he, the Germans machine gunned them on the raft. Then he sent a telegram saying, ‘I’m coming on such and such a train,’ and my mother went to meet him and he had a pair of men’s leather dancing pumps on. ‘What have you come home in those things?’ he said, ‘I haven’t got anything else. The ships been sunk.’ So, he got told off [laughs] before he’d even got home. She met him at the station poor man.
PC: So, they hadn’t had any word that the ship had been sunk?
SS: No, no, no and they wouldn’t have done either until they had officially released that news, he just wrote ‘I’ll be coming home in such and such,’ well a telegram in those days, ‘coming home on such and such a train.’
PC: And he survived the war?
SS: Pardon?
PC: And he survived the war?
SS: Both my brothers survived the war, we were very fortunate in that, yes, he did. We knew of other people who had lost family and it must have been awful, terrible. But Peter, who was in the RAF, he used to come home because he was only in Lincolnshire between raids, and ended up bringing half his crew with him I think. The pilot was Australian and he used to come every leave. He always came to our house when he was on leave and made it his second home. And I had a boyfriend who was Dutch and he did the same thing. They always brought their washing with them of course [laughs] for my mother to do. But they both made it their home and we continued hearing from them both. Well, the Australian until he died but the Dutch boy wrote until after he got married. He actually invited us to his wedding in Holland, but of course we didn’t go, but you know, there were grateful of a home. A fire to sit by, rather than, the RAF especially got criticised because they went into the pubs. Where else had they to go? And my elder brother, my elder brother went to sea and at one time he was on a Cape Town to South America run, and my other brother was in Southern Rhodesia training. They couldn’t meet because Harry was an officer and Peter was an AC plonk, they couldn’t meet in a public place in South Africa. Which was appalling because of the apartheid. So, fortunately my older brother had made friends in Durban, being across there so often, so they used to go there to meet. But I think it was awful. Brothers were not allowed to meet. That was South Africa at the time, so —
PC: What does AC plonk mean?
SS: Well, he was the lowest rank in the RAF when he was still training, and they just used to call the aircraftsmen whatever it was. Plonk. It was just a joke, you know, the lowest rank possible. And, of course Harry was way up there in the navy [laughs]. Anyway, they did meet so it wasn’t so bad, and they both survived, thank, thank goodness, yes, I don’t know—
PC: You talk about fires, and warm pubs and so forth. How did the weather affect things —
SS: The bombing?
PC: Do you have any memories. Do you have any memories of sort of —
SS: Oh, do you mean relating to the war?
PC: Yes.
SS: Well of course, if was foggy they couldn’t come over. If it was heavy fog at the time, they wouldn’t, they couldn’t come and you’d think oh, well, perhaps they won’t, but it didn’t mean that it wasn’t foggy over there. You didn’t always know. But they didn’t come, they liked a nice moonlit night. Clear skies and moon and daylight of course, you could get it in the evenings. They’d come over, and the guns would be going off as well, ack ack as we called them in those days, the anti-aircraft guns would be firing at them and you would hear them going as well. Everything was scarce but we didn’t bother and I was very, very welcoming of somebody’s cast off clothes. Somebody grew out of them and they were all passed down and they were very welcome yes.
PC: So, could you get warm in the shelters?
SS: Not really. We had all in one suits, warm ones, to put over your pyjamas, like Churchill wore, his siren suit, and there were blankets down there and there would be hot water bottles. There was no other way, was there? You know, it was, just sat it out. Waited for the all clear, hopefully.
PC: So, everything had to be very organised in the kitchen before —
SS: Yes, yes —
PC: All the time —
SS: All the time. My mother was an organised person anyway but err as you say —
PC: Grabbed the kettle, grabbed the flask, grabbed the sandwiches —
SS: The flask would be there yes. We didn’t have any sort, she wouldn’t have lit the kettle in the, in the shelter. Well, you wouldn’t have been able to, there was no electricity. You wouldn’t do it for safety sake, I don’t think. There’s not a lot of room in a shelter. You get a few people in it. She always had something ready, because sometimes you would be in for quite a long time. Fortunately, we had an outside loo, which was just outside the air raid shelter so we didn’t have to worry about that.
PC: And what about lighting?
SS: I don’t remember lighting in our air raid shelter but there was lighting in that one. You can see it if you wish to.
PC: I would love to. [pause]. Super, so, you were you able to read?
SS: Oh, yes, I was an avid reader —
PC: In the shelter, I mean —
SS: We had torches —
PC: Ahh.
SS: Because I would read under the bedclothes with a torch when I wasn’t supposed to be reading you see, so we had torches in the shelter, yes that was it. But during, I would just lie down and go to sleep. I don’t know what my mother did, poor woman but that was me, it was err just —
PC: So, most of the time it would be just you and your mum —
SS: And my sister.
PC: And your sister if she came, if she could be persuaded to come.
SS: Yes, yes [laughs]
PC: And, and that would, be it?
SS: That was it.
PC: And the dog?
SS: The dog, and father if he wasn’t on duty —
PC: On watch.
SS: On watch, Yes, he would be there. But even then, he would tend to pace around the garden and down the ten foot to see what was going on, that everything was, was safe. Because I’m afraid you did have people who took the opportunity of getting into your house.
PC: Good gracious.
SS: It happened, that sort of thing. So, he used to be more pacing around. I don’t ever remember either of my brothers coming into the shelter, and they must have been at home sometime during the blitz, but they probably would refuse to come in I don’t remember them coming in.
PC: Mm, mm.
SS: Only when you came out of the shelter, after it all, neighbours coming out of their shelter that you’d say, ‘you all alright, is everything OK’? That sort of thing, yes. The neighbourhood, everybody was very friendly, working together cooperating. My next-door neighbour, our next-door neighbour, her husband had to go in the forces and she had two little children, and my mother sort of mothered her, because she was very young. Father, used to, she once had a burst water pipe, and I remember my father going. It was in the middle of winter and pipes used to burst in those days, and helping her out. All the neighbours did, but so many of the men were away, just the women there. So, no, my father went through the first world war and came out, but my mother lost her first husband in the first world war, and she never knew what had happened to him. He was just missing presumed killed, and then eventually they said he must have died. But my elder brother, it was his father you see, he went to Holland and found his grave, and he died as a prisoner of war and my mother never knew and I felt so sorry for her. She hated Armistice Day, she was really very upset on Armistice Day. So, he did find him but it was after my mother had died unfortunately. He found his father’s grave.
PC: So, was he, was he in the trenches?
SS: Yes, yes, he was in the trenches. But how he came to be in Holland we never found out because Holland wasn’t in the first world war. We never managed to find out. It’s too late now, I’m afraid, to find out but he did go and satisfy himself as to where his father was. It was a hard time.
PC: So, your father, what did he do?
SS: He was in, In the first world war?
PC: Mm.
SS: He was in the army. But err, he went out, he was out in the Middle East and the Far East. Err, in Israel, Afghanistan, Burma and all round that side of the war. So, he, but there was quite a lot of fighting in the first world war, out in the Far East. Yes, because they came over into India and came that way, but err, he wasn’t deeply involved in it. We had quite a lot of photos, but I’ve given them to my nephew. Not having any sons, myself, he was next in line for that sort of thing so he had those, but no.
PC: So, did your parents, did you ever get a sense of how your parents felt about another war in their lifetime.
SS: Oh, my mother was very, very anti Hitler, anti -Germany, with losing her first husband, in the first. Oh yes, she was very bitter about it, and yes, and err, very, very patriotic. You know, if the national anthem came on the radio, we stood up, even like this, we stood up for the national anthem yes. She was very bitter against the Germans, yes. Which is understandable. She was left with no pension. There was no pension then. Because they didn’t know he was dead. She didn’t even get a war pension, so she had nothing. These days it wouldn’t be allowed. No, but like the rest of the British nation, she coped, and then married my father but he wasn’t —
PC: How did they meet?
SS: I don’t know. I have no idea how they met. It’s a shame. You don’t think of these things until the time has passed and there is absolutely nobody left now to know. How they met I don’t know, no idea. But err, he came from a very big family as well. They were all nice people. My Granny —
PC: Was he a Hull lad as well?
SS: Oh yes, yes. I don’t know about my mother’s first husband. She never really talked about it, people didn’t in those days, and father said very little about his part in the war in Afghanistan. But I remember him saying to us that that part of the world will always be in turmoil, there will always be fighting. He was on Khyber Pass, of course. He said there would always be fighting there always will. And it’s true, isn’t it? Their fighting now.
PC: So, what was his, as an air raid warden, did you get a sense of what he—
SS: He wasn’t actually an air raid warden, he was up on the roof of the buildings—
PC: Ahh.
SS: In case—
PC: Fire watching.
SS: Fire watching, yes. And if a fire bomb dropped they would have to put it out. Sand yes.
PC: So how did that work?
SS: Well, he would just be walking around the top of the building watching for things dropping and just had his own area, the town end of Beverley Road, for the shops there. They didn’t get bombed though, I think he had the job of putting the fire bombs out once or twice. Buckets of sand. We all had buckets of sand left in the garden so, if one dropped you could put the fire out.
PC: Dangerous work.
SS: Yes. Yes, but they did it. They just did it. I had a brother-in-law who couldn’t be in the war because of a disablement and he used to go watching, I can’t remember what they were called, along the coast for the Germans coming over so he would spend the night with other people, doing that sort of thing. So, even those who couldn’t physically take part in the war would be doing something, to, to help. But I was, I was too young to be, to have to do anything, err, because the women got called up as well to do the jobs. Err, I can’t think of anything [laughs] it will come to me afterwards.
PC: So, at the end of the war then, how old were you at the end of the war?
SS: I would have been about sixteen, seventeen. I was at technical college by then doing a pre-nursing course, and I remember us all going to the headmaster and saying, ‘can we, can we go out,’ because the sirens were going and the church bells were all ringing, and he said, ‘yes, off you go,’ so off we went into the town to join in all the celebrations [laughs]. But we went back to college next day. It didn’t stop, we [indistinct]. It was a huge relief, even at that age for me. It was a huge relief that we wouldn’t be getting bombed anymore hopefully, everything could gradually get back to normal. It didn’t change an awful lot, other than that. You were still on rations and things were still scarce, but it was just the huge relief that that was it and things would get back to normal eventually. And they did.
PC: Tell us a little bit, if you can [laughs] about your celebrations.
SS: Oh well, I was far too young to drink. I was forty-five before I ever went in a public house. My father was dead against it. No, it was just a case of, in the city, Paragon Square, just dancing around, joining everybody and having a good time, and celebrating, like you see them in London outside Buckingham Palace, just dancing around. We hadn’t got the King and Queen, but you were just going around the town and just sort of being joyful and happy and getting over it. It went on into the evening and then you got the bus home. And that was it. We didn’t go on for too long. It wasn’t getting drunk [laughs], no, no. I say, I was forty-five before I went in a pub, and I remember going in it and thinking ‘I don’t know what my father would say if he knew I was in a pub.’ He wouldn’t even have sherry in a trifle. So, no, we survived and had a good time without drinking alcohol. We had a very good time, yes. So, no it was —
PC: I guess Hull would have been, you know, being a port and there would have been lots of activity —
SS: Oh yes —
PC: In terms of lots of sailors and —
SS: Oh yes. Yes, I think my house, well my mother’s house was known as the United Nations. But I took everybody home. My mother said, ‘whoever you meet bring them home.’ So, they would come home and they were all right. I say, the Dutch boy and the Australian boy and there was another one from my brothers [pause] who used to come home, and my mother would feed them and she would say ‘they’re all right as long as they come home and see where you live and see it’s a decent place,’ and they were really all grateful for a fire place to sit around. So, err, no —
PC: That must have been very interesting growing up —
SS: It was —
PC: Exciting —
SS: It was, yes. You met all sorts of people. I remember a Frenchman who lived in Algeria, and that was interesting because my parents would talk to him about his home, and he kept in touch for a long time after the war as well. And err, the Poles and Czechs, and you know, everybody got together, there was no feeling of nastiness or anything, it was all, you know, just friends together. Yes, yes, at the dances you used to meet all sorts of nations. I remember going to the hall in Cottingham for a dance, and it was when the Americans had come and we didn’t realise that they were all coloured men, and do you know, a lot of the girls walked out when they walked in there and saw them. We didn’t, my sister-in-law and I didn’t. I mean, I don’t see why. But err, thinking of the coloureds, after the war, oh, after I was married, for a while I worked as a secretary to the doctor’s in the village and he was doctor to the university and I remember giving an injection to a coloured student, and when I went down to the chemist, which was underneath the surgery, he said ‘you haven’t had to give an injection to that n***** have you?’ I said to him ‘yes [emphasis] I’ve nursed children who are coloured children, it’s only skin. Your eyes are a different colour to mine.’ He was horrified that I’d given an injection and touched, and he was a lovely boy as well, he was ever so nice. Because the prejudice, and that was it, when all the girls walked out of Civic Hall in Cottingham.
PC: And were they Americans?
SS: Yes, they were Americans and they were billeted at the end of Northgate along there opposite the West End Road, is it there now? There’s a police station there now I think, but that was where they were billeted. We did have refugees, but they did on Priory Road, children refugees, who’d been evacuated from their own country, foreigners. So, we had those there as well. And, with being a port, as you say you got a lot of foreign sailors in but mother’s house was United Nations.
PC: [Indistinct}
SS: Well, as I say they were all, they were all nice boys, there was no nastiness about them. There was nobody who wanted to go further than they should do probably, shall we put it that way? Never thought about it myself. But a lot would look for it, for sex. But they were just grateful to get into a family home a lot of them, I think. I don’t know how my mother made the rations go. She almost always gave them bacon sandwiches, something always manged to stretch. Probably do without herself, my mother. People used to think because my father was a butcher, have I said that?
PC: Mm.
SS: That we got more —
PC: That you got more than you —
SS: No, we didn’t so —
PC: Did you, did you feel after the war that Hull got the recognition that —
SS: No, no. It’s just like Bomber Command never got it. Yes, yes, we were a North Sea port and not recognised for, because I think, I think we lost more, like Bomber Command lost more in proportion the number of people who were in, and I think Hull did. I think Hull got more bombing in proportion to London. We certainly got a lot. But err, it was mostly in East Hull, got the worst of it. But um, no, we came through. We got through it all, and I got through this interview [laughs].
PC: It’s been an excellent interview.
SS: Thank you.
PC: There was one other thing I wanted to ask you about and that is of course you were married to someone in Bomber Command.
SS: I didn’t know him when he was in Bomber Command.
PC: Right, right.
SS: I didn’t meet Malcom until after war, well after the war, so I didn’t know him then, but I’ve heard enough about it since. And if you had come four years ago, you’d have found the house full of Lancaster bombers. Everywhere weren’t they Christina? Yes. Every room but that room, but there we had a little clock with a Lancaster bomber on it as well. But everywhere was, up the walls, there were fifty-six frames with photographs in —
PC: Good grief —
SS: And, of course, most of them have gone to [indistinct] so they will be in the archives for you. Cos’ as I say, he saved everything. Even the —
PC: Was there anything that you wanted to include in your interview about his experiences that were perhaps —
SS: Well —
PC: Particularly important to you, from your perspective.
SS: Only for him, from his perspective, again being stoical, he would come back off a raid and see an empty bed and it was stripped so they knew that one had gone and they would wait for others coming back and which, have you seen the Bomber Command war memorial in London.
PC: I have.
SS: I thought it was very moving, and it was the one at the end, that happened to be the wireless operator that is standing, like this, waiting for some of the others to come back. And, you know, they say, they looked and they’d say, ‘oh so and so’s pranged it.’ And again, Malcolm was very stoical about it. You knew it was going to happen. So, you didn’t go over the top but err. I know one thing that they’d always say, when they were flying back to Lincolnshire they looked for Lincoln Cathedral but they would also look for a Windmill, which was Uncle Harry’s windmill, Malcolm’s uncle. And, it’s still standing is that windmill but —
PC: The one in Lincoln?
SS: Yes, just outside Lincoln, somewhere near Sleaford way. It would be in the archives because there’s a photo and it says, ‘Uncle Harry’s wind.’ And wren {indistinct] the pilot says the same thing ‘when we saw the windmill we were nearly home then.’ But they always say it was Lincoln Cathedral they looked for but 207 Squadron looked for Uncle Harry’s mill [laughs]. I don’t know other than that. He never talked a lot about it. He didn’t say very much. It did produce a strong comradeship amongst them. As the pilot says, ‘everyone was reliant on each other in that aircraft.’ In fact, he said, ‘even though I was the captain, I was the one that they could do without more than any of the others.’ And err, so they had a very strong bond with them and this one that’s left, rang me up the other day to see how I was doing, and you know, kept in contact with two of the wives who are widows now. They did have two reunions. Just two of them were missing, the Australian and the South African, but twice we’ve had a reunion of the crew which was lovely for them, and for me to see them as well, yes it was a very, very strong bond they made. So, it but, it was always a relief when they turned for home he said, on their way, and hope they weren’t shot at on their way home. As Malcolm said, ‘you’re in a tin can full of bombs. You’ve nothing to dull the sound there’s no heating, and if somebody hit the plane the bombs would go off and you’d had it.’ It wasn’t much fun and he couldn’t wear gloves because he was the wireless operator. So, he had silk gloves which I’ve given to my grandson, and he’d worn the fingers out, because he couldn’t wear the leather gloves that the others had on because he had to be able to use his finger. You’ll have to go see all his things in [indistinct]. When they get done again. I don’t know what stage there at, because you took it to bits, didn’t you? And then Christina’s husband who was doing most of this was very ill, and is still very ill, so this will get sorted out again. But it was interesting.
PC: So, you married in Hull?
SS: Yes, we married in Hull, at St John’s Newland, yes in Hull.
PC: And you settled in Hull?
SS: We settled off Bricknall Avenue which strictly was in Cottingham, yes and then we move here, and we’ve been here since 1955.
PC: And you had two daughters?
SS: Yes, two daughters. The other one’s away at the moment on holiday so no, um, I’ve a very good family, all along the line. I don’t know what I would do without you {talking to someone else in the room}. I really don’t. I don’t know how people manage on their own when they are widowed. It must be very hard work. Because when anybody, when my mother and father died I had two brothers to see to it all and when my mother-in-law died Malcolm saw to it all so I’ve really no experience of coping with it all but we managed, we managed. He’d kept everything, every bit of paper. He had two, what do you call them? What do you call those—
Somebody else in the room: Filing cabinets.
Filing cabinets, one with four drawers and one with three drawers they were full. His bedroom was full of boxes full of papers, the spare room was full of boxes and boxes of papers. I had to go through every one. I sat on that chair with a rubbish bag at the side and a saving at the other and every time I threw something away I would say, ‘I’m sorry Malcolm but it really has to go’ [laughs}. And he had always been really meticulous about taking addresses off every letter, if he threw one away, and so although I knew it wasn’t necessary I was tearing the addresses off every one.
PC: What did you do in civi street?
SS: Err, well I was nursing at first and then I went as secretary to two doctors in the village here.
PC: And what did your husband do?
SS: He was an accountant. He ended up, do you remember King and Co in the Market Place —
PC: No, sorry?
SS: You don’t?
PC: No.
SS: Well, he ended up as managing director there and then they got taken over and he went to the Blind Institute as manager there, but he was an accountant by training, so everything had to be done to a penny. But he left everything all right in the end, didn’t he, Malcolm. So, we coped, as usual. Poor man, nobody should have suffered like he did in the last year of his life. It was terrible wasn’t it Christina? He has cancer of the face. I couldn’t even recognise him, which Dove House [?] said, it was a bereavement in itself. I would sit there, he was here and I would say ‘it’s not Malcolm, even his hands didn’t look the same.’ I don’t whether I’ve got some photographs of him. [rustling]. No, I did have some photographs. You took some photographs of him, didn’t you? They were awful. There one on the other side, of him.
PC: You can see he was a handsome man.
SS: He was in his time yes. But um, he really went through it at the end, but err, there’s when we went to Buckingham Palace.
PC: That’s lovely, let’s have a little look at those.
SS: I think they’re all family, I don’t think there any of Malcolm here these are all family.
PC: Shall we stop the recording?
SS: Yes please.
PC: is there anything else, before we look at these wonderful photos, is there anything else, that you can think of that you would like to add? Anything at all.
SS: I can’t really, no. As I say not from during the war, oh that’s Bomber Command. Not really.
PC: In that case, I would just like to say a huge thank you to you that fascinating story and thank you very much for sharing it with us.
SS: There’s a photo here, it’s not Malcolm isn’t on it. This would have been during the war, Christmas. And that’s Malcolm’s pilot, no, my brother’s pilot from Australia.
PC: I’m going to end the recording now.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AStavesS160523
Title
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Interview with Sheena Staves
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:05:42 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Pam Locker
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-23
Description
An account of the resource
During the war Sheena lived in Cottingham, a village close to Hull. She lived with her mother and father (who was a fire watcher). He fought in the Far East during the first world war. She had two elder brothers, one in the Navy and one in the Royal Air Force. She also had an older sister. Sheena was thirteen when war broke out and she continued to attend school. Many of her peer group were evacuated to Bridlington, but Sheena stayed at home. She describes what it was like being a teenager during the war and how this affected her daily life plus activities. This included school exams, relationships with family, friends, and boyfriends. Sheena talks about the social impact of the bombing including rationing of food and clothing. Sheena’s husband was a pilot in Bomber Command, she is a widow, has two daughters and trained as a nurse.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Hull
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
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Jan Hargrave
Air Raid Precautions
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
memorial
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/178/5614/MBriggsR1893726-160226-060001.2.jpg
ff7f5a21bb916786c09b25fbc095daf5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/178/5614/MBriggsR1893726-160226-060002.2.jpg
d3c7a946a5463f91b8e72cff19449151
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briggs, Roy
R Briggs
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. One oral history interview with Roy Briggs (1893726 Royal Air Force), his logbook, service material, training material, official documents and 12 photographs. Roy Briggs trained as a wireless operator and flew four operations with 576 Squadron from RAF Fiskerton. He also took took part in Operation Manna and Operation Exodus as well as Cook’s tours over Germany.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Roy Briggs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
Identifier
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Briggs, R
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Voluntary Fire-Fighting Parties membership card
Description
An account of the resource
Card certifying Roy Briggs as a member of Battersea Voluntary Fire Fighting Parties
Format
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Printed card
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MBriggsR1893726-160226-060001, MBriggsR1893726-160226-060002
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
civil defence
firefighting
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/375/6519/POtterP16020009.2.jpg
53079efc6c08367ecdb14e7f39f4bd25
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Otter, Patrick. Album
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. A multi page album containing images of scenes from 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook, and photographs of ground personnel in various situations including a bomb dump, an officers’ mess, a control tower, and medical and dental facilities. It also contains photographs of a sports day, family photographs and a sailing trip.
Identifier
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POtterP1602
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Control tower, crashed aircraft and fire practice
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph 1 and 2 are of a control tower. On the roof is '04'.
Photograph 3 and 4 are of the remains of crashed aircraft.
Photograph 5 is of a man in a shirt and tie with a hose laying out foam from a hose.
Photograph 6 is of the same man being supervised by an airman.
Photograph 7 is of fire training. Two men with a hose and a fire engine in the background.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Seven b/w photographs
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
POtterP16020009
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
control tower
firefighting
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/407/7065/PAnsellHT1624.2.jpg
5ae8249218e8f2b5dcb4ac9e131364fd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/407/7065/PAnsellHT1625.2.jpg
2ad534e7b1fc630f04624adb8c18d539
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ansell, Henry
Henry Ansell
H T Ansell
Description
An account of the resource
28 items. The collection concerns Sergeant Henry Thomas Ansell, DFM (b. 1925, 1893553 Royal Air Force) and contains his logbook, his release book, a school report, two German language documents and several photographs, his medals and other items. Henry Ansell served as a flight engineer with 61 Squadron and 83 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Vicki Ansell and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Ansell, HT
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Title
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Firemen on parade
Description
An account of the resource
A group of firemen being inspected by an officer. In the background is a fire engine. On the reverse 'Ansell Barking'.
Format
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One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
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PAnsellHT1624, PAnsellHT1625
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Essex
Creator
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Newsphotos, Roland Shaine Portraits, Ilford, Essex
firefighting
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mr Herbert R., Kassel, Moltkestraße 8 and makes the following statement:
I am from Essen. We moved to Kassel on 1 August 1942 to escape the terror bombing.
After the alarm came, we, my wife Else and daughter Christel and my sister-in-law Emilie Mühlenbacher and her brother Werner, went to the air raid cellar in our block of flats in 8 Moltkestraße. The powerful explosions shook the houses. Our street too was hit by an explosive bomb and in addition to that, it was raining innumerable incendiaries on our houses. The rear building was already on fire. The fire had been working its way already down from the roof timbering to the third floor. Fumes, smoke and dust where coming into our air raid shelter. The house opposite, Moltkestraße 7, was not on fire yet. The whole row of houses opposite still seemed safe. There was, however, a huge bomb crater between nos. 7 and 11. Our ARP warden said: “We have to get out of here, otherwise we’ll all die!” I collected my family and we agreed that we would quickly run to the house opposite. I wanted to go and save our suitcases. But my wife said: “Please, let it go and only save us, me and the child!” – At this point the man breaks down in tears, overwhelmed by the memory. – Before we ran across, I soaked coats and blankets and so we ran across to the stairwell of no. 7. When we turned around, my sister-in-law and the little boy weren’t there. They were afraid to run through the fire which was burning foot-high on the street. I said to my wife: “Stay here; I go and get the others.” In that moment a sergeant came along who said: “If it gets worse, I’ll take your wife and the eight-month old child with me in the cellar.” So I ran back to get the other two. As we get back to no. 7, there’s no sign of my wife and my child. The sergeant had probably taken them with him in the cellar. Here everything was in chaos. The women were channelled through the breakthrough, so as to get from the Detmolder Hof [a pub] to the Lutherplatz. I ran through two breakthroughs, shouting the names of the missing, but did not get an answer. So I ran back and thought: Maybe they’re still at the back. But I could not find them. I now hoped that they’d been fortunate enough to get to the Lutherplatz and wanted to run there through the street.
Because of the firestorm, I had had to wrap a blanket around my head. I couldn’t see anything and as I was running, something got between my legs. It was the overhead wire of the tram. I was on Königstraße. Because of the heat and the smoke I felt faint. I fell. Then I felt something wet with my hand. It was a clear puddle, in the middle of the street. Water was welling up into the street, probably because of a broken mains. I wetted my mouth and rolled in the water. I had a bath like a canary. That woke me up a bit. But I had burnt my hands and feet. Then a few soldiers came running along, saying I couldn’t keep lying there because the houses would collapse. And already burning debris came falling down. So they ran away. I crawled further down the street and reached a hydrant. I lay under the water jet. More soldiers came, also a Dutchman who has done many good things, and they thought I’d get pneumonia if I stayed there and they carried me in a tunnel which was on the neighbouring plot. There was an almighty throng, many injured. I had a look at my watch. It had stopped at 11.20, probably because water had got in when I was rolling in the puddle. A soldier said it was twenty to one. Now we were waiting for the morning. A nurse bandaged my hands and feet and men from the auxiliary service brought me to the rescue centre at Henschel and Son. In the afternoon, I was taken by a truck to the Möncheberg hospital. On Sunday, I was able to open my eyes again. Then I travelled to Essen. I hoped to hear from my family there. But they were and remain missing.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Herbert, R
Description
An account of the resource
Mr Herbert's account of the events at Moltkestraße 7 and 8, Untere Königstraße.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Identifier
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Record 1
BKasselVdObmv10001
Contributor
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Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
fear
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mrs Maria V., Wilhelmstraße 2 ½, 1st floor and makes the following statement:
By about half eight, we had alarm and then the shooting started. I was always the first in the cellar which amused the other tenants because of my fearfulness. Soon, the rear building was burning, after an hour or so. My husband and my son tried to save the building but came back after ten minutes. My husband had burnt his hands. He sank on a chair and said: “I can’t go on.” Then the men tried to open the breakthrough to Klingebeils’. Their house must have collapsed. From there we just had smoke come through and a voice said to me: Bend down, bend down!” I bent over, always further down, where there was still some good air. Then I passed out. When I woke up again, I guess that I had been lying there for hours, I could see that everything behind me was on fire. I was lying in the breakthrough to Klingebeils. My feet were getting hot. I can’t remember where I got out whether through the Stadtparkgarten or through Wilhelmstraße.
Everywhere on the Friedrichsplatz were dead bodies. I searched for the others everywhere, I thought, maybe somebody will come past here. But no one came. Then I went to the train station because I could no longer bear the sight of all these dead people. There I asked someone where I could find something to drink because my mouth was burning. It was already daylight. I’d guess that it was about ten. The city centre did not burn any more, only in Kölnische Straße a few houses were still in flames. Then I went to the town hall where I was given a coffee. I thought to return to where I came from, Lippstadt, but I was told that it would be better if I looked for the missing first. I therefore went back to Wilhelmstraße. There, I met my brother-in-law, the furrier Hugo Meßling, he had been in the Stadtpark where he had been on duty as an air raid warden. That’s how he was saved. All the others had been killed. My husband too. I did not want to hear anything of the sort, I was the only one saved, as through a miracle. Because that inner voice had been saying ‘bend over, bend over, bend over’ and because I had to vomit twice. But my husband and family have all been killed, except Herr Meßling. I did not want to know and believe that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maria, V
Description
An account of the resource
Maria V's account of the events at Wilhelmstraße 2 ½
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Record 3
BKasselVdObmv10003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mrs Karoline K., Obere Karlstraße 17, now Harleshausen, Pideritzstraße 7, and makes the following statement:
In the evening of the air raid, there were only a few cinema-goers left in the pub. Mainly soldiers who were having a drink after the screening which had finished by half seven. They, together with other guests, came with us to the cellar but they went to the public one whereas we went to the private one for the people living in the house. We were originally in our business, in the dairy, across from them. The air raid had taken us by surprise, just as we were coming home. My daughter had been washing her feet and therefore ran without stockings to the cellar. My husband didn’t want to go at first. He said: “There won’t be anything.” Because we had had a number of false alarms. When the shooting started, however, he shouted from above: “I’m coming, Mother!” That calmed me down. As he entered, his hat was blown of his head; it was not before time.
So the whole house community was together. And then came the heavy hits. It didn’t take long and Mrs Dötenbier appeared and asked if she could stay with us. She had come through the breakthrough. But we had smoke and phosphorous coming into the cellar and so we had to flee to the public shelter. We held wet cloths to our mouths. My husband did not follow us through the breakthrough at that time as he was still trying to put the fire out. It must have been about 11 when I went with Mr Schwan. We weren’t aware that it had stopped. We thought the raid was still going on. We had to operate the ventilators to get air. The French POWs had already started pumping at eleven. I saw little Ruth Niemann and I gave her a pill as she has trouble with her heart. I comforted her because her mum wasn’t there.
No one let us out of the cellar, about half eleven, Mr Zedler and Mr Schneider let no one leave the cellar. There were also soldiers and policemen. We were told the men had to operate the ventilation pumps below and the women the ones above so that we would get oxygen. I thought I’d burst. It was too hard. My daughter also could no longer operate the pump. Mrs Vogt died of a heart attack through the work. They would not let her or her children leave. These weren’t oxygen pumps but fresh air pumps and we only pumped smoke in. The women were exhausted. In my view, we should have lain down and kept still. My husband had a heart condition but our daughter was healthy. About a quarter to one, my husband asked what the time was. My daughter had sat down, my husband was lying on the floor. They were so quiet. I thought: Is that death? Then I became tired and thought I don’t know how much longer I can bear this.
After that I must have gone to sleep. But it was a peaceful going to sleep, just as when you get home from a walk, and it was cold outside and then you get into your flat, where it’s comfortably warm and you go to sleep. My husband said at the end: “I don’t understand why no one comes to rescue us.” We were told that the gate had not been on fire so that we would have been able to get out. From the Friedrichs-platz, Mr and Mrs Schwan too had been driven by soldiers to the Bürgersäle. They also died with the exception of Mrs Schwan. A Mr Steinmetz from Karlstraße managed to get his children out and also wanted his wife to come but she did not have the courage to leave and stayed there. That was roundabout 11. One woman said: “I take responsibility for my own life!” So they let her go. The two air raid wardens who prevented us from leaving had good intentions but they too suffocated with the others. I don’t remember much after that. By one o'clock I was unconscious.
Herr Siebert – he works for Auto-Cöster – told me that the old Mr Cöster had stripped off and had a screaming fit after he’d told him the course of his life.
I woke up two days later in the Jäger barracks, Frankfurter Straße. I don’t know how I got there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Karoline, K
Description
An account of the resource
Karoline K's account of the events at Obere Karlstraße 17 (Bürgersäle).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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Record 4
BKasselVdObmv10004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
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Harry Ziegler
Creator
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Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: The Landgraf-Karl-Straße had also suffered a shower of incendiaries albeit a thinner one. According to the town official the following happened here:
An incendiary dropped through the roof of a house into a bath tub which had been filled with water which was intended to be used to extinguish fire. The bomb broke through the bottom of the tub and was extinguished by the water which was pouring down. Then the water ran down the stairs where a canister with phosphorous was starting a blaze. The water extinguished that too all by itself.
A similar story is being told about a larder. An incendiary had dropped in it. Through the heat, a lead pipe started to melt and the water which poured from the pipe extinguished the fire and the bomb.
A third piece is told by the occupational health nurse Miss Emmy Zoberbier who works for the public health office. Where she lives, Königstor 53, an incendiary dropped through the roof during an air raid two years ago. It did not do any damage. A few days after the raid, Mrs Schlunk goes up to the attic to tidy up her stall there. As she enters, she thinks: Who put the stove on? I haven’t had the heating on up here for years. The stove had burst. As she examines the stove, she finds a burnt-out incendiary bomb and its ashes where they should be: in the ash box.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Emmy Zoberbier and anonymous respondents
Description
An account of the resource
Three accounts of the events at Landgraf-Karl-Straße.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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Record 5
BKasselVdObmv10005
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mr Anton J., Kassel-Kirchditmold, Opferhof 3 and makes the following statement:
On the evening in question I was visiting Mr Iffert in his flat. Present were also his wife, his father, his son, his sister-in-law, Mrs Hausmann, and the apprentice Mohr. The two assistants had left the house a little earlier. We were having tea. When the alarm came, I was standing outside, on Freiheiter Durchbruch. I made tracks. As Mr Iffert confirmed later, his family went down to the air raid cellar whereas he had to join his volunteer unit. This was a bit further up on the same street. When the incendiaries created the first fires, Mr Iffert helped with rescue and fire-fighting. When the bombs stopped dropping, he found time to attend to his family. The relevant block leader informed him that his relatives were no longer in the house but had to flee through a breakthrough into the neighbouring Scheldtsche house. The whole street had been on fire. Explosives had been dropped everywhere too. Mr Iffert then started to search but he was in the dark because there was no electricity and he did not have a torch either. His search was unsuccessful. He made his way through all the cellar breakthroughs but did not find anything. He now believed that his relatives had saved themselves and returned to the rescue and fire-fighting operation in the Wildemanns-gasse and the Platz der SA.
He only discovered a trace of his relatives a few days later, in the staircase of the public air raid shelter Hinter der Waage 1. Here, he found his father whom he could identify without any problems. He had two gold pieces with him and a fob chain which he knew well. From this, he drew the conclusion that his other relatives had to be also in the air raid shelter. This assumption proved to be correct. When we sifted the ashes and remnants of bones which had been found in the cellar, a process in which I was involved – we put up a big sieve and poured everything through it – he found his wife’s key ring, his father’ and his sister-in-law’s wedding bands and his wife’s half-charred wedding band. They came to this air raid shelter through the breakthroughs. In that cellar we found 21 wedding bands, 2 dog-tags of soldiers, the baldric of a work command leader, several bags, wrist watches, signet rings, medals, brooches and other things. We passed them on to the detective force.
Iffert’s air raid cellar was so well preserved that nothing would have happened to them there. It had not overheated. People had lost their heads, however, and ran through all the breakthroughs. It was the result of poor leadership.
I was on duty outside during the raid. I was in a cellar in Wolfsangerstraße. The house had already been wrecked on 3 October. The rest was destroyed during that night. I think it was no 61.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anton, J
Description
An account of the resource
Anton J's account of the events at Kassel-Kirchditmold, Opferhof 3.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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Record 6
BKasselVdObmv10006
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mr Heinrich Peter Sch., formerly of Hohenzollern-straße 56, and makes the following statement:
I came at about 8 from the Wilhelmshöhe train station and managed to get with the tram as far as the Red Cross [hospital]. Then the alarm went and we had to continue on foot. I walked through Kaiserstraße at a leisurely pace and got home by about half past eight. Part of the people living in the house were in the cellar, the other part in the offices of my business. I was debating with my housekeeper whether I should go and get my two dogs from the flat and wanted to put on my firefighter’s uniform to go to my deployment site when the anti-aircraft guns started to fire. So I went quickly to get my two dachshunds and helped to carry down the air raid luggage which was on the ground floor and then we waited for what was going to happen. It took a few minutes and then we had incendiaries close to the house and on the pavement. I put a bucket over them and extinguished them this way. I also ran several times up to the attic as I had to assume that the houses would be hit by incendiaries too but so far, everything was fine. I was once briefly in the cellar when we had a hit close by. I can’t even say where. I only went to the cellar to calm down the women – most of the people in the house were women. I managed to do that.
Then I saw from the courtyard, that light green smoke was coming from my cousin’s bedroom window on the third floor. I shouted down to the cellar that my cousin should come up and I showed him that and then we both ran to fight the fire. The bedroom was full of smoke, the incendiary bomb was lying on top of a wardrobe. We tore down the curtains and it was relatively easy to extinguish the bomb. My cousin was too particular and wanted to clear the dirt but I said we had better look in the attic as that bomb had probably not been the only one. I found another three, two of which I extinguished with sand and water. The last one I grabbed and threw through the window down on the street as I had run out of sand and water. By doing so I could see Hohenzollern-straße and had a shock. The whole street, as far as I could see it, up to Annastraße and Ständeplatz, was covered with incendiary bombs. I was reminded of the torch parades of the SA, only that these things burnt green rather than red. I assumed that things would look the same on the court-side of the house. I had the right vantage point on the third floor. But to my delight, the print shop had not yet been hit. So I ran back to my cousin who was still working there and told him: “So far, it’s gone well. I hope our luck holds. Get a move on to get finished; I’m going to extinguish a few bombs in front of the house.” I put out some more bombs with a bucket downstairs and had a little inward fit of rage. The whole street was deserted and I thought if only one person from every house helped cover that big source of light – because for that mob up there our brightly lit street was a wonderful target and I expected that further incendiaries would follow.
And that’s why I was worried about my cousin who was still up there in the house. I thought if they now hit the house, he’ll be blown to all four winds. When he still did not appear, I ran up the stairs, shouting his name more and more loudly but I could not make myself heard over the infernal noise. I found him finally on the third floor and upbraided him for not coming down instead of using his fire swatter. So we both ran down the stairs. And now comes the tragic bit: as we are about the level of the second floor, there was a scary blow, I squeezed myself into the wall and we both lurched and fell down the stairs without understanding what had happened. The smoke, dirt and grime we had in our respiratory passages were excruciating, in our mouths, noses and lungs. I only recovered my sense as I reached the entrance to the cellar. I called: “Henner, are you here?” You couldn’t see anything of course. Everything was dark. It seemed that we were unscathed. I immediately ran down to the cellar stairs to go and see how the women were doing in the air raid cellar. I tripped over a chunk of masonry, it was dark everywhere, when I remembered my torch. And as I want to get into the room, I had a terrible shock. The light of the torch reached maybe half a foot. Everything was full of dust. And to my horror, I see that the room is full of the fragments of the cellar vaults. The ceiling had been penetrated. I said to my cousin: “They’re all dead.” Then I shouted individual names in order to find out whether anyone was still alive under the rubble. And I could hear, when the outside noise wasn’t too strong, a low whimpering noise. My cousin said immediately that we had to fetch help from the neighbouring houses and I said to myself, the stairwell we also be impassable because it is above the cellar. We also could not get to the breakthroughs; that way was blocked. The only remaining escape was across the courtyard and over the garden walls.
When I had climbed up the wall to the next courtyard far enough so that I could look over it, I saw that number 54 was ablaze from the ground floor up and that the entrances to the cellar were blocked by burning beams. It was unlikely that we would find help there. Then I thought: maybe we can do it on our own. Maybe a hollow space had been formed when the vault collapsed and I can get to the people underneath. Therefore we quickly made our way back to the cellar. At the entrance to the cellar I shouted again the names and listened very closely. I also shouted the names of my dogs but all I could here was whimpering, fainter than the first time. We urgently needed help. My cousin came and shouted: “Go and get help!” So back on the wall to number 54. After I jumped off in the courtyard next door, I must have stayed on the ground dazed for a bit but I woke up again, through the roar and crackle of the fire. I felt a leaden tiredness and exhaustion and it took me a few moments to get up again. I had probably inhaled smoke and gas. As I was upright, I lurched and staggered like a drunk. Now the paling to Westendstraße 5 blocked my way. I threw myself against it a couple of times with my full weight and it finally gave way. On the short way to Westendstraße, I had to lie down a few times because of exhaustion. The courtyards were full of smoke. But luckily I kept my wits about me and every time I fell I told myself: “Keep your mouth close to the ground, breathe deeply.” That helped. At the entrance to the cellar, I finally saw another human being, a young air force helper! A marvellous chap! He dragged me into the cellar where someone washed my face and gave me something to drink. I vomited much grime and dirt and I felt better. In exemplary readiness to help, Benno Mainzer and two neighbours volunteered to follow me. We could no longer travel via the courtyards. Through the cellars, then! We got as far as a few metres to the breakthrough to our house - but there we came to a stop. White, acrid wood smoke came in through the windows into the cellars and filled them and made it impossible to breathe. We had to turn back. So we went back to Westendstraße 5. That cellar was also filling with smoke and fumes, it had to be evacuated. I quickly helped to guide people into the open and then I tried to get through Westendstraße to Hohenzollernstraße. At the junction, I saw what had happened. Our house (number 58) and the one next to it (number 60) had disappeared and the same went for the house opposite. Heaps of bricks from both sides had trapped a van in the middle of the street and it was burning out. Behind me, a man came out of the cellar of the Martini-Eck. I shouted at him: “How many people are left in your cellar?” Answer: “I’m the last one!” I shouted: “I need help! In our house people are trapped under the rubble!” He advised me to get help from the railway bunker in Bismarck-straße.
This was a terrible journey. Luckily, the firestorm made its way up Westendstraße, I therefore had it in my back. Park-straße was impassable. Therefore: Kölnische Straße. Down Bismarckstraße, against the firestorm to the entrance of the bunker – that finished me off. I had to go to the emergency room first because of my eyes, a mate from my fire brigade unit led me there. After I had been patched up, I searched for the guardroom. And there, I had a terrible disappointment! I was told that it was no longer possible to get onto the street, to help people. I tried several times that night on my own, occasionally with the help of neighbours who had also found their way to the bunker, and at two or three in the morning, we managed to get as far as the junction of Hohenzollern- and Westendstraße but it was impossible to get closer.
Concerning the time, I think that we were hit about a quarter past nine and that the raid lasted until about a quarter to ten. Round about that time, i.e. the end of the air raid proper, I must have reached the bunker.
The morning after the disaster, towards eight, a rescue unit of the SHD arrived. We could first recover my cousin’s body, sitting at the bottom of the stairs. People then also found his wife’s body. When I asked what would happen with the dead bodies, I was told that they were seized by the police who would see to everything. “You have no authority to make any arrangements!”
In the afternoon, I took my car, which luckily had been spared, and drove to friends in the countryside in Reichenau near Hess. Lichtenau as I was literally on the street. I drove every day to Kassel to help retrieve bodies and to discharge all my other duties. That was particularly difficult as all documents had been destroyed.
A few days after the disaster I realised that I had an increasing pain in my anus. First, I thought it was piles. When I was in Fulda at Christmas time, visiting my sister, it became unbearable. Prof Dr Hertel diagnosed a tear in my gut. I was operated upon on 11 January.
On the first floor of our house lived the families Schade and Noll. Luckily, none of them were there that night of terror. I lived on the second floor with my housekeeper, Miss Katharina Wölk, and also a Miss Margarethe Walter who were both among the victims. On the third floor [lived] my cousin, who died as did his wife and their domestic Miss Bachmann (Anneliese). Their child, Michael, was in a kindergarten in Sooden-Allendorf.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Heinrich Peter, Sch
Description
An account of the resource
Mr Heinrich's account of the events at Hohenzollern-straße 56.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Record 7
BKasselVdObmv10007
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
animal
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is the teacher Mr Karl L., Wickenrode, and makes the following statement:
I arrived at Kassel train station around half four with the express train from Lorraine. I had all my luggage with me, particularly all my research notes on the ethnology of Lorraine. I went directly to my niece, in the Chamber of Crafts, and left several suitcases there. I could not take them all with me to Wickenrode. On the other hand, I did not feel that they’d be safe with left luggage. In my rucksack, I had sixty cartridges and my three-barrelled shotgun with telescopic sight which I intended to take with me on the bus. The rest, including the bottles of Cognac and my research notes, I wanted to leave in Kassel for the time being. I was ill that day and arrived in Kassel with a temperature. I went down to the theatre. There, I had a glass of beer. The landlord came to my table and said, gesturing with his head towards the theatre: “As long as that thing’s there, they won’t leave us alone.” I told him that I had all my luggage at the station and in town to which the landlord remarked: “Better to take with you what you can carry.” I therefore went back and retrieved two more pieces of luggage. When I arrived at the bus, which always leaves from Friedrichsplatz, it was already jam-packed. The next one would take us. It was about a quarter past seven. As the bus leaves, I said in jest: “Look out! We’ll have lots of excitement!” They people on the bus shouted back: “Don’t make jokes like that!” Just as the bus had left, the sirens started to wail. The Friedrichsplatz was empty in no time. And then the bombs started to drop. The new office prefabs burned immediately. They caught fire first. I ran into a house in Frankfurter Straße. I did not go into the cellar but stayed under the stairs. Soon the house was on fire above me. Someone shouted: “Don’t go out! Don’t go out!” I went anyway, however, and that was what saved me. I think all the people in the cellar burned to death.
People were running past me to the Weinberg. The whole street was ablaze. So I turned right. I wanted to flee to the Aue. I asked those who were running past me: “Where are you going?” “To the shelter in the Weinberg!” Incendiaries were pelting down. I came to the first entrance: jam-packed. We were told: “Only women are allowed in.” To the next entrance then. The second shelter was also full. To the third entrance. I had just entered the tunnel when the second wave of bombers arrived. It was terrible.
Later, we ran out. Everything around us was on fire. Then the refugees came from all parts of the city, more and more of them. They came from the old town, from Wilhelmstraße, Hohenzollernstraße, even from Holländische Platz. From all corners people came. They talked about heavy bombs, innumerable incendiaries and showers of white phosphorous. Then the Rondellchen, the little round temple next to the art gallery, started to burn. Now the order came: “All men out for emergency service!” We ran to the houses on Frankfurter Straße to firefight and rescue. We managed to salvage quite a lot. A Mr Hausmann saved a lot of typewriters. And then the fire brigade came. The last waves of raiders gave the upper new town the rest. Kassel was a single sea of flames, from the upper to the lower parts. On the pavement, from the Weinberg to the Friedrichsplatz, we found fifty or sixty incendiaries.
The following morning revealed a terrible picture. The whole city was trampled, torn and shattered. Then the big bomb in the Aue exploded. A woman was killed by a splinter through her heart. People screamed. I ran down to Brüder-straße in order to get across the Fulda Bridge. I was stopped. At the same moment, a dud exploded at Marstaller Platz where the Restaurant Wilhelm is. When I walked through Kaufunger Straße, people were still or already trying to put out fires. Massive houses were still collapsing. Then came trucks bringing food stuffs into the city. People behaved splendidly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wickenrode, Karl L
Description
An account of the resource
Mr Karl L Wickenrode's account of the events at Frankfurter Straße, Weinbergbunker, Marstall and Kaufunger Straße.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-03-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Record 8
BKasselVdObmv10008
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
displaced person
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mrs Hannah K., née Sch., born 19 December 1913, from Sanderhausen and makes the following statement:
We were burnt down in the terror attack of 23 October. We moved in with my mother-in-law in the Pinne [a pub]. When the alarm came, we immediately went down. This time, they were all down early. We were not in the big public shelter but the little one for people living in the house. Then the raid started and my mother-in-law and my husband were standing together in another part of the cellar opposite. I was frightened and ran into the big shelter with my child (Manfred, born 3 February 1940). And it was like that: When the smoke started to come in, I saw that people held cloths in front of their mouths. I took the boy’s underpants off so that he could hold them damp against his mouth. Then we ran back into the cellar where we had been first. My husband had been looking for me and calling me and he was supposed to help open the breakthroughs. And I was fairly lively and suddenly we were out of water. The boy became sleepy. I thought we’ll suffocate. A woman from the big shelter whom I didn’t know, gave me something sweet and I said: “Give the boy something too,” and I think the boy flinched and fell back. I was not with it anymore and thought my boy was with me and then ran somewhere else. For days I thought I had the boy with me. And then people shouted we should kneel and I did and then the light went out and I fell over. I did not feel any pain, I was only sleepy. My husband fell over a heap of sand in the corridor. The only carried him out at half ten because dead bodies were lying on him. It had been thought that he too was dead.
I woke up about eight in the morning. I fell asleep a long time after the raid. Possibly about one. The others were already all lying there and were all asleep. When I woke up I noticed the fresh air. A woman was lying on top of me and had a leg over me or it was even two women, and I said to the people to give me a hand but the women were themselves unconscious. I shouted for help but no one came. But then rescue units came. I picked myself up. I kept shouting “Manfred!” and then a child shouted “Mummy!” and I’m certain it was him. Around me were lots of dead children. Mine was not among them. Then it went dark. The rescuers came and carried me out. I shouted: my child is still in there. It’s possible that he was lying there and I didn’t see him. I was brought to the Renthof. I thought they would bring my boy too, they also brought many people but not my child. I was so dazed and weak, I could not look after my child. I think it is possible that the unknown woman who gave me something against fainting, took the child because she thought I didn’t want him anymore. More children were saved than adults, probably because they had less smoke down there. I should have stayed with my husband, then this would not have happened. The following morning (Saturday) I found my husband. He was at the Renthof. There were so many dead people and he looked at them all. Then we ran to the Pinne where they carried out the dead. There were so many, they could not bring them all out at the same time. We then travelled to Rengershausen and the next day back to Kassel although we should have gone to Fulda but we did not have the peace to do so. And then we looked at more dead people from the Pinne, only at the Pinne. But we did not find our boy. The rescue units told us that they had brought out dead and living children. They did not know anything about our boy. It was said that that they had all been laid out at the cemetery, all the dead, but I did not know that they were there.
Description of my boy: dark blond hair, eyes grey-blue, of average size, round face, jabbered the whole day, couldn’t say his name. When he could not remember his name, he always said: “I am a boy!” He was dressed in a light blue jumper, I draped my brown cardigan around him, blue shoes and knee-socks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hannah, K
Description
An account of the resource
Mrs Hannah, K's account of the events at Wildemannsgasse 19 (“Pinne”).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-03-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Record 12
BKasselVdObmv10012
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
fear
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is the sculptor Heinz Wiegel (Lance Corporal) and makes the following statement:
I must start by explaining that our house had already been hit by incendiaries during the air raid of the night of 27 August 1941. The neighbouring house towards Murhard-straße and the corner house opposite towards Murhard-straße were burnt out. Our upper floor had to be rebuilt. The construction waste from the renovation stayed there. It made it easier to put out two incendiaries later. We also had iron doors up there. Our house was hit by five incendiaries and two smaller canisters with phosphorous. One burnt down to the second floor, it had probably entered through a window on the third floor. A ceramic bowl stood on our table, it had sand in it and because of that I could throw the filth out.
On the evening in question were sitting in the living room. My father was also there. The wireless stopped. I said to my wife: there will be an alarm. She took the suitcases and my father went on his way home to Große Rosenstraße 21. That’s where he died. We, my wife and daughter, ran to the cellar. Women and children were already there and a paymaster. Then incendiaries fell in quick succession and then a blockbuster at Luisenplatz. Then the lights went out and an explosive dropped on Murhardstraße and the tooth gap [an empty plot]. I could hear and smell that something wasn’t right. I ran through all the flats and tore the nets from the windows because the shower of sparks had already started. It came in from the burning houses around us. I went up to the attic. On the fourth floor, where Mrs Nitsche lived, I put the fire out together with Mrs N. Her toilet was on fire. I put the incendiary out. The air raid warden Schlotzhauer fought the fire on the third floor. A Mr Möller, and my wife too, brought water and then I went up to the attic. A couple of light canisters had fallen into a corner of the roof. I put them out with water. Then a fire was burning through from the ceiling of the third floor. An old chest was standing there and I got up on that chest and chucked water from half-filled buckets on the fire. I also went into the little room next to it. I brought the ceiling down with a broom handle because in the corner the fire from the house next door was coming through. I don’t know how long that took. I remember though that I was wishing for number 7 to burn down.
The church burned like a flaming torch. The old barracks too. The shower of sparks was intense. We saved the house in the fight against the fire. I had smoke poisoning. The Hitler Youth put a fire guard into our house. My wife took me to the Red Cross as I had lost my sight but it was restored there. The following day we travelled to the Blue Lake because I couldn’t bear the air [in Kassel]. Our house started burning again but soldiers put the fires out.
On reverse of the page:
My father died that night. I have been told the following by eyewitnesses: My father must have arrived in Große Rosenstraße at the start of the raid. The incendiaries in the house were put out with my brother-in-law’s help. One canister [dropped] in the shop, another at the front door, everything was on fire. At that point several people from the house threw their buckets away and took off. In the house next door [Text becomes incoherent and then stops.]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wiegel, Heinz
Heinz Wiegel
Description
An account of the resource
Heinz Wiegel's account of the events at Luisenstraße 9 and Große Rosenstraße 21.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-03-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Record 13
BKasselVdObmv10013
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. Translations of statements held by Stadtarchiv Kassel recorded by the Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel about the bombing of Kassel 22/23 October 1943.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Translated from the original in German: Present is Mrs Käthe Sch., née Sch., born 5 January 1906, and makes the following statement:
Before eight in the evening, the wireless stopped. That’s when we put our coats on. We had tickets for the bunker of the railway. With me were my daughter (19 years old) and my grandchild, my parents and my 15-year old son. My siblings (the Gutheil family) had already gone ahead. The alarm started towards eight o’clock. Then my parents and I ran to the bunker. My son, as dispatch runner, had to stay there. By about half nine we were told that our house and the whole street were on fire. At about ten my son turned up completely black in the face. He had been helping with putting out fires in our house and then had been buried. (Cf. the report of the son which makes no mention of this.) But the men managed to get out. Some women had stayed back. Towards eleven, we noticed smoke coming into the bunker. The children started to cry and our eyes started to water. But there was no water for us because it became so scarce that we were not allowed to take any. Then we sat there. The bunker takes 800 people and 1200 were there. It was a terrible ordeal and our tongues burnt with thirst.
At six, I got out to have a look around and got as far as Westendstraße. Where Hohenzollernstraße is, I turned back. You couldn’t get through. Everything was on fire. Sparks were flying. It was terribly windy. So I went back. We sat there until half seven. It was morning. We were told we had to get out. The air was all used up and we would suffocate. And so we left, ran through the flames up Bismarckstraße and through Kölnische Straße to the town hall. On the way, we saw many bombed-out people, sitting on chairs along the street or on the curb. And they had their bundles. I did not hear much wailing and moaning. Here, less was on fire. In the town hall were given milk to drink and were taken to the Wittich barracks. From there we moved to Gemünden and der Wohra where we are living in a flat of our own.
The son, Harry T., born 17 November 1928, makes the following statement:
When the others had left the house, I stayed in the flat at first. Then I stood by the front door of the house. Then the ack ack started firing. Then fire broke out on Hohenzollern-straße. The air raid warden, Mrs Almeroth, got us out for firefighting because our attic started burning. While we were putting out fires, an explosive bomb dropped in a corner of the yard. The hose caught fire while we were firefighting. When we couldn’t go on anymore as the fire was too fierce and we had run out of water, we went down to the entrance hall. On the ground floor, the flat of the Hungerland family was on fire. They carried their furniture into the entrance hall. But it was destroyed by fire anyway. That flat was directly above the air raid cellar and because there was danger that the house would collapse, the air raid warden said people should go to the shelter in Bismarckstraße. It was sometime between 10 and half past. And as there was nothing left to salvage – our flat had also been destroyed already – I went up Westendstraße, through Parkstraße to the shelter on Bismarckstraße. In Westendstraße some people were still on the street. I had to pay attention that I did not get hit by something, stones or masonry or wooden beams. All the people from our wing of the house went to the Bismarckbunker. Herr Ferdinand Theune was killed. He tried to get back into the house to fetch his dog because it was barking so. Then the house collapsed. I don’t know what happened to his wife and his many children. I went back there in the morning, at about six, but by that time the house was just a pile of rubble.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Käthe Sch
Description
An account of the resource
Mrs Käthe Sch's account of the events at Luisenstraße 2, Old Barracks (north wing), Railway Bunker, Bismarckstraße. Included is a statement by her son, Harry.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-03-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Harry Ziegler
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Record 15
BKasselVdObmv10015
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kassel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-22
1943-10-23
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Vermisstensuchstelle des Oberbürgermeisters der Stadt Kassel
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
firefighting
home front
shelter