1
25
527
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1543/28493/EFiedlerMDowardA940920.2.pdf
8b8543fadf5f2acd6bad2b84e734ca28
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tansley, Ernest Henry
E H Tansley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tansley, EH
Description
An account of the resource
98 items. <br />The collection concerns Pilot Officer Ernest Henry Tansley (1914 - 1943, 149542 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 57 Squadron and was killed 2 December 1943. Collection consists of photographs, letters, memoires, biographies, accounts of operations, logbook extracts and official/personal documents.<br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Anne Doward and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br />Additional information on Ernest Tansley is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/122894/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Approximate translation
20.9.94
[underlined] Evangelical Parish of Trebbin [/underlined]
Dear Mrs. Doward,
By a roundabout route your request came to us. We understand that you wish to learn something about the shooting-down & death of your father. Our records reveal the following Entry in the burial register of Trebbin (see enclosed).
On the 6th December 1943 8 bomber soldiers (5 Anglo-Americans and 3 Canadians) were buried at St. Anne’s (?) cemetery behind the rearmost chapel. They were shot down on a bombing raid to Berlin by a German night-fighter on the 3rd December and crashed in flames on the new clubhouse of the Rifle Club (behind Ludwig’s Meadow).
The list of personnel is in the hands of the Magistrate
High Command of the German Army,
Army Records Office for War-Related
Persons & Prisoners.
Dept IU 2 Saalfeld
No. 471/7.11 1617/44
Dalton, Brown, Park, Groves, Lewis, Moad and 2 unknown.
So your father must be one of the 2 unknowns. In the cemetery register of the parish there are also entries (see enclosed) but the names have been crossed through at a later date and someone has added the following:- “Sent back home”.
Consequently your father was buried in Trebbin but at some point was taken away again. Home, in this case must mean England. Certainly there are places in your Country which undertook such re-burials and could give you information in this respect.
Kind regards from Trebbin
M. Fiedler, Pastor.
[page break]
[original letter in German]
[page break]
[burial register extract]
[page break]
[burial register extract]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Anne Doward from Pastor M Fiedler
Description
An account of the resource
Handwritten translation of original Germany reporting her request for information about the shooting down and death of her father. Writes that crew were buried on 6 December 1943 is St Anne's (?) Cemetery. They were shot down by a night fighter on 3 December. Mentions location of crash and German documentation. Her father was one of unknowns recorded and was subject to later reburial. Includes German burial records.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
M Fiedler
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1994-09-20
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Handwritten translation and printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
deu
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EFiedlerMDowardA940920
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Essex
England--Rochford
Germany
Germany--Trebbin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1994-09-20
1943-12-03
1943-12-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Christian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
crash
final resting place
killed in action
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/272/1150/PBubbGJ16010131.1.jpg
83d6c0dee7e7da70d5a996b9182ba206
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/272/1150/PBubbGJ16010131.3.pdf
8324e3ad1c4d71065ab037e623526ff9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bubb, George. Album
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The album contains photographs, propaganda, service material, memorabilia and research concerning George Bubb's service with 44 Squadron at RAF Spilsby.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bubb, GJ
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
44 Squadron and the Wesserling Raid 21/22 June 1944
Description
An account of the resource
Six page document courtesy of the late Allen White - 44 Squadron Historian. Reproduces narratives from three 44 Squadron crews involved in the operation. Overall the operation lost 37 crews from 120 launched against Wesserling oil refinery near Cologne. 44 Squadron dispatched 16 aircraft of which 6 were lost. Germans successfully interfered with Oboe of pathfinder Mosquito aircraft and the operation disintegrated. First narrative recounts experience of Squadron Leader Cockbain who lost control of his aircraft after attack by night fighter. Some crew baled out before he regained control and after a struggle successfully returned to base. Second narrative recounts experience of Cockbain's flight engineer, Walter Faraday. Reports on damage and that rear gunner is stuck in malfunctioned turret. Describes recovery to base and feelings next day. Final account from this crew is from the mid upper gunner Albert Bracegirdle who baled out and awoke in a forest. After evading he hands himself in due to injury and the fact he is deep in Germany. He notes that two other squadrons on the operation lost six crews. He notes that plan was standard 5 Group low level marking technique but bomb on H2S if no markers. However operation bore the brunt of successful night fighter action. An account of the loss of Pilot Officer R Woods aircraft is given by W/O A Sergeant Royal Australian Air Force. This was their second operation and they were hit by night fighter and had to bale out. Recounts crew struggling with parachutes while others are injured or dead. Three crew members survived and were caught the next day. The final account of the operation is from Sergeant F Preston, one of the only three crew to survive from Pilot Officer J W Sholtz crew. He recounts he was blown clear after the aircraft exploded and opened his parachute and landing with some small injuries. He then headed for southern France. The final account is of Ric Green a navigator on 44 Squadron who did not fly on the attack but reported his feelings the next morning on finding so many crews missing from the previous night. There follows a role of honour for six crews lost on the operation. Notes that the first crew on the list, Flying Officer R Wood Royal New Zealand Air Force was the only Bomber Command crew lost that contained members of all three commonwealth air forces plus a representative from the United States Army Air Force.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
207 Squadron association
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBubbGJ16010131, PBubbGJ16010132, PBubbGJ16010133, PBubbGJ16010134, PBubbGJ16010135, PBubbGJ16010136, PBubbGJ16010137
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal Canadian Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-21
1944-06-22
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
44 Squadron
5 Group
619 Squadron
bale out
Distinguished Flying Cross
final resting place
H2S
Ju 88
Lancaster Finishing School
Mosquito
Oboe
prisoner of war
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Syerston
shot down
target indicator
training
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1414/28199/EBuppingerAWareingJXX09XX-01.1.pdf
6e178faa8c858c1dc022fb0dca704064
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wareing, Robert
R Wareing
Description
An account of the resource
258 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Robert Wareing DFC* (86325 Royal Air Force) and contains his flying logbooks, prisoner of war log book, memoirs, photographs, extensive personal and official correspondence, official documents, pilots/handling notes, decorations, mementos, uniform badges and buttons. He flew operations as a pilot with 106 Squadron. After a period of instructing he returned to operations on 582 Squadron but was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Andrew Wareing and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wareing, R
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] Reply:- c/o Capt A. Buppinger R.A.S.C, C.S.D. Soulbury [underlined] Bucks. [underlined] [/inserted]
[Hotel Rembrandt crest]
HOTEL REMBRANDT,
LONDON,
S.W.
7.
[underlined] Sept [/underlined]
My Dear Joan,
Thank you for your letter which I received last week, & I apologize for the delay in writing. I wanted to write you as soon as I returned but was bound down by the Air Ministry. However as they appear to have given you a certain amount of information, I’ll tell you what I can. You will appreciate my difficulty I know, but I will be completely truthful & honest with you, as I think you can take it the right way.
We had bombed our objective on the night of 7/8/Aug.
[page break]
& were approaching the French Coast east of Le Havre. About 6-10 miles from the coastline, we were attacked by a German fighter, who came in three times & eventually set the aircraft ablaze in the cockpit. The rear gunner, mid-upper gunner wireless operator & bomb aimer were killed & I have personally seen their grave. The engineer baled out first, followed by the second nav, (Bob King.) & I followed them. King was burnt a little & I burned my legs getting out, & sprained my ankle on landing. Bob was still flying the aircraft in all this, & believe me Joan, I feel very
[page break]
proud of him. He was a real skipper & stuck to his job.
I wandered about all night trying to find assistance & finally at nine o’clock next morning, contacted some French people who passed me on from one to another until that evening I was taken (with Paddy Tarrans the engineer) to a farm in the woods. Here we hid for three weeks while a local doctor looked after my burns, & ankle, & patched up a few scratches on Paddy. While there they told me that King had been caught by the Germans & taken to Le Havre Hospital to get his
[page break]
burns dressed. Bob was picked up by a renegade Frenchman & passed over to the Germans, who also took him to the same hospital. He was a little worse off than we, but exactly how much I could not discover. The Frenchman concerned was picked up by the local Maquis, & they showed me Bob’s signet ring, wrist watch & your address which he had written out. These were retained by the Chief of the local Resistance movement for, I presumed, restoration to you.
As far as I know, they were both in Le Havre Hospital
[page break]
right up to the time of capitulation & since then I have been eagerly awaiting news of their return.
When our troops moved to within six miles of our farm, Paddy & I made a dash for it& got in touch with them on 1st Sept. Then by degrees we were passed back to the beach head, & embarked by sea for Newhaven on the 7th Sept.
Since then I have been busy with medical boards, hospitals, kit chasing, (about £40 worth missing!) & sick leave. I have my ankle
[page break]
encased in plaster, & it should be all right by the 16th Oct.
The point about Bob, Joan, is that he may or may not have moved out of Le Havre, we shelled & bombed it too, but tried to avoid the hospital etc etc. So you see – I don’t want to raise false hopes of any kind. I have told you all I know, & I can but add that I hope & pray that things will come out all right for you. I think I know enough about you to realise that you will understand.
Did you know that bob had driven his car to the usual
[page break]
garage in Market Harboro’ for servicing? I mentioned it to the Adjutant & asked him to let you know. If you want to dispose of it or anything like that, let me know & I’ll be very pleased to do anything to help you.
I’ll try & visit you when I can, & we will have a more personal talk.
Goodbye for now, & remember Joan – you have a husband to be proud of.
Yours very sincerely Alan
[page break]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Joan Wareing from Alan Buppinger
Description
An account of the resource
Describes events during an operation to support the Normandy troops when Robert Wareing's aircraft was attached by fighters and set on fire. Four crew members were killed and four baled out. Author and one other evaded with help of French resistance, linked up with allied troops and returned to England. Two other crew including Robert Wareing were caught or handed over to Germans. Both were in Le Havre hospital. Continues with subsequent events and discussion about Wareing's car which he left in Market Harborough.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
A Buppinger
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Christian
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Seven page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBuppingerAWareingJXX09XX-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
France
France--Le Havre
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Leicestershire
England--Market Harborough
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-09-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bale out
bombing
evading
final resting place
killed in action
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
prisoner of war
Resistance
shot down
tactical support for Normandy troops
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/219/3359/PCahirJ1601.1.jpg
7a7bc04ecbf0bcccac4bb87cf872c71a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/219/3359/ACahirFS160608.2.mp3
8e770b50bb0ff69fc5e3b1766aef81c7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cahir, Francis Shamus
Francis Shamus Cahir
Jim Cahir
Francis S Cahir
Francis Cahir
F S Cahir
F Cahir
J Cahir
Description
An account of the resource
44 items. An oral history interview with Francis Shamus "Jim" Cahir (419441 Royal Australian Air Force), letters, documents, photographs and a sub collection.
He flew operations as a mid upper gunner with 466 Squadron. His aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jim Cahir and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-09
2016-06-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cahir, FS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: So, this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s with Jim Cahir a 466 squadron mid-upper gunner and prisoner of war. The interview is taking place at Jim’s place in Airport West. Just across the road from mine as it happens. It’s the 8th of June 2016 and my name’s Adam Purcell. Jim, let’s start from the beginning.
JFSC: Yes.
AP: Can you tell me something of what you were doing before the war and why you joined the air force?
JFSC: Yeah. Well I was eighteen and the position with the government in those days, and this was 1942, was that all eighteen year olds you were called up in 1942 and they had to join the army. But I had more interest in the air force so I signed up after great trouble with my mother, who I can well understand, giving me permission to sign up for the air force. Eventually she did and I can understand much later that why she didn’t want me to join the air force. She’d lost her, my father, her husband only some years earlier. And I was still only very much a young boy at eighteen. But I went into the army as requested by the army authorities and I spent nine months in the army which I enjoyed, quite candidly. And then I was on the way to go to go to New Guinea and I’d reached Queensland for more training in the army when the air force decided to call out of the army all those young fellows like me who were young. We were eighteen. We’d signed up as volunteers. We’d had the education necessary. We’d already passed. So I was called back along with a lot of others from Queens, northern Queen, northern New South Wales and Queensland to join the air force, which I had already actually signed up for. And that was in August 1942. I was discharged from the army at 12 o’clock one day, and I was in the air force the same day at 1 o’clock, which was very disappointing because I mentioned I was going to get a bit of leave there but it never occurred. But anyhow, I joined and from that point on I became an air force recruit which, and I went to the usual places, Somers which was Initial Training School. And then after a couple of months at Somers I was posted to Parks in New South Wales which is a wireless school. And I spent six months at Parks and then I was transferred to Port Pirie which was a gunnery school. And from that point on I became an accomplished operator of radio and gunnery. At least I thought I was. From that, at that stage things were pretty desperate here in Australia. This was, must have been in 1943, early ‘43. And I was selected along with some others to do a special gunnery course at Mildura. I was dragged out of a draft that was going to England to do this course in Mildura. But it turned out after some time, a couple of months I think, three months maybe, that they trained us but they had no planes to allocate to us or for us to be a part of the crew. We were all sent back to embarkation depot which happened to be at the showground in Flemington there. From there we hung around for a period of time and was then put on the ship to go to England which we really didn’t know what was going on. We were just put on one day and sailed the next night I think. And the trip was very interesting to the extent that we passed through New Zealand. The ship got lost, believe it or not, in the Pacific Ocean, outside the port of Cuba, or Panama first. And we were approached by the American Air Force with a bomber with bomb doors open and, as far as we could see, a half dozen rather large menacing looking bombs. That flew directly over the ship. The ship was now silent in the Pacific Ocean and obviously they were getting directions from the Americans what to do. We eventually landed in panama, went through the Panama Canal. From the Panama Canal we went up to New York and set sail for, across the Atlantic for England. And we landed in England in Cardiff. And ended up being transferred from Cardiff to London just to be in time for an air raid that none of us had experienced and we thought it was very exciting. But the Londoners knew better than we did and we were hustled down to a air raid shelter for [pause] whilst the raid went on. From then we joined the — Brighton which is in south of England. And it was the home town of the, all the Australians. Where they had taken over the two big hotels and we were sort of landed in one of the hotels, not as a hotel but just as a sleeping establishment and for further schooling on wireless and air gunnery etcetera. From that point I was allocated to [pause] I’m trying to think of the name of the place, doesn’t matter. To a further advanced school for gunnery and for wireless and then eventually ended up on 466 Squadron.
AP: Can you tell me how you met your crew? Tell me how you met your crew?
JFSC: Yes. Yes. We sort of knew but there was quite a crowd. There was twenty odd I think, new recruits. And we were told that we were to crew up and we were put into a hangar more or less with the rest of the crew and I was approached by my pilot to be. And he was — I was acceptable to him and he seemed to be very acceptable to me. And thus from Pat Edwards, the pilot I met the rest of the crew who had, he had more or less selected prior to meeting me. So I became the last member of the crew as were all the others. It was amazing. Always amazed me that you could throw all those fellows together and they’d come out. Go in the entrance, come out at the exit all crewed up and all happy to be crewed up with those particular people who selected them or talked to them about it. From there of course it was, things were — more training on the squadron and a lot of daily flying on journeys across England and also night flying which was at that time quite terrifying to us who had never been in a plane at night. And you had to take off in the half light and come home in pitch black and try and find your own aerodrome was, I hate to say it but it was an effort on behalf of us by the navigator George Britt and the pilot and there were occasions they were dependent upon me to sight certain land beacons. To advise them that a beacon over there on the starboard side signalling such and such. AD, or some such thing. And that’s how we got home on one or two occasions but the authorities on the squadron didn’t know that.
AP: Very good. Backtracking a bit can you tell me what your thoughts were the first time you ever went in an aeroplane?
JFSC: Say again.
AP: What your thoughts were the first time you ever went in an aeroplane?
JFSC: Yes. That’s, I was very happy to be crewed up with Pat Edwards whose photo is there and his story is under there which I wrote.
AP: Oh excellent.
JFSC: And you can read and take a copy if you so desire. Tells what a wonderful bloke he was. I was very happy and it was exciting. There was no fear on my part as to the first time and that was only [pause] that was only more or less short trips around the aerodrome. The thing was that he had to find, I think, navigate around the Yorkshire in general and find your way home. And we spent quite some time doing that and we were, we thought we were pretty proficient at it.
AP: By the time you finished. You told me a little about when, when you first got to England and the first air raid shelter when you just arrived, before you got to Brighton.
JFSC: Yes. Well we certainly, we landed as I said landed at Cardiff. Came up by train to London and whilst we were in the train, not, more or less on the express of London the air raid sirens had sounded which meant that the train was slowed down and did stop temporarily somewhere and then obviously had instructions to carry on to whatever London station it was, which we’d forgotten. And I think really looking back on it was a foolish time in that we were in an air raid after being in London no more than half an hour and it was sort of exciting but we didn’t realise how ridiculous that thoughts were. And everybody was saying, ‘Oh,’ you know, ‘Write home about the air raid,’ and that, but really it was [pause] we were taken out of the train at one of the major stations and taken to an air raid shelter in a hotel, the basement of a hotel. Where? I don’t know. But the air raid did not last very long. And I sort of heard the guns firing and that’s about all.
AP: What, what did you think of wartime England in general? When you — your first impressions.
JFSC: I was amazed at the number of uniforms from different nationalities. There were hundreds or there were thousands of different nationalities walking around London, obviously on leave, all with different uniforms. And I thought who were the Brits and who were the — [pause] Anyhow, we soon found out how and it was an exciting time. We had twenty four hours I think in some hotel in London. And then we moved down to Brighton which was on the coast, South coast. After being in Brighton for a period of time we knew we were in England and we knew that they were pretty stoic. There was air raids, not every day. But Brighton, being on the coast, sort of seemed to be a place that the Germans seemed to like and drop bombs on. And we became quite used to air raid sirens and air raid warnings and we took notice of them. It wasn’t quite as exciting as the first one. It was more, we were more reasonable and realistic about it.
AP: What sorts of things did you do in England when you weren’t, you know on operations, what, what were you doing on leave for example, to relax?
JFSC: Well, we didn’t get plenty of leave from Brighton but we did get some and we’d head for London which was the Mecca of most airmen’s dreams or wishes to see. And we’d have a day or two leave but we had to go back to Brighton. It wasn’t until we got to another town [pause] I can’t [pause] my memory’s slipping on me. I can’t think of it. It was a training camp and we were introduced to Halifaxes there. And we had to do a certain number of hours. More the pilot had to do a certain number of hours training in there. Naturally the crew, we’d already been picked and we spent some time at this place and eventually moved from there to Leconfield which was the home of 466 Squadron and just continued our training there for some time.
AP: What did you think when you first saw a Halifax?
JFSC: A huge plane. I hadn’t seen anything like it. We was really, I can understand us being shipped out of Australia to England. I mean they wanted air crews but here in Australia the biggest plane they had was sort of a Hudson bomber which was out of date. And there was nothing to it to take its place and — that I know that I know of, oh they introduced flying 14 Liberators many months, many months. Maybe twelve months, maybe longer to Australians flying in from the northern parts of Australia and the islands. But I, I hadn’t seen a plane the size of a Halifax, and particularly four engines in it too. The biggest plane I’d probably seen was one with one engine in it. So our learning was very dramatic, very quick, and quite exciting.
AP: So what happened when you got to Leconfield?
JFSC: Leconfield. The training still continued. But it was getting more serious all the time. We did a lot of night flying, a lot of flying. Well, searching for planes that had come down over the North Sea quite often. Or, I presume, submarines or something like this. And I can remember going as far as Norway at one stage along the coast. Not that I saw Norway but what I knew was there we were flying up and down a stretch of the North Sea, or the Atlantic Ocean. I don’t know which was which now. Probably didn’t know then [laughs] either. Never saw a thing. But it was the Yanks had been to bomb a nuclear outfit in Norway that the Germans had set up and it was there — I think they called it a heavy water unit. It’s come back to me just then now. I was fishing for the name. And they had lost a few planes going out. We were pulled out to go and look for them. We could have dropped a dinghy if we’d seen anything. But I do believe that any plane that came down in the North Sea was doomed and I don’t really know of anybody but I’m sure there were some that did survive but I don’t know. I never met anybody that survived the North Sea or the Atlantic in the middle of winter which was December. So, that was more or less part of our training but part of our employment to try and save American lives. Never saw anything so —
AP: What, what happened next? Now you were at, you were on ops.
JFSC: On?
AP: Were you on operations now at 466?
JFSC: Yes. We were from that point on more or less we were treated as operational. That, that could have been really an operational trip but it wasn’t treated as. Then the next trip was dropping mines along the coast of Holland and I can’t think of the name of the place and I can’t show you a log book because I don’t know. I have no idea what happened to mine and it’s a thing of the past. It hasn’t, it did upset me originally but I thought — well what of it anyhow? I remember what I had to do and what I did. And I was dropping mines and very, very I understand that they’re very clever, mines, they, we sailed — or flew along the coast.
[someone enters the room]
AP: Hello.
Other: Hello. Hi.
AP: Where were we?
JFSC: Yeah. Oh yes. I was telling you about the mines.
AP: Oh yes.
JFSC: And they were very crafty, mines. They were, I think about two hundred and fifty pounds mines which was more or less, I think, I don’t know — my memory might be astray there. And they were dropped at a certain speed of the aircraft and at a certain height and they sank to the bottom and they lay dormant on the sea bed for a set period of time, might be three months, might be six months. I probably did know at that time but I can’t be sure. But yeah, then they floated to the surface, or not quite the surface but to a required depth, which caught heavier ships rather than somebody in their rowing boat. And they were supposed to have been very successful in that the Germans would sweep for mines, be clear, because they couldn’t scrape the bottom and then they’d declare that area clean and then the thing would come up some time. Now, all that was told to us and I think they were probably the truth. I don’t know. But we believed it. And we thought we were doing a good job. So that was the first operation we had. The danger in that was that you were flying at night at fairly low altitude dropping sort of high explosive. That if you had the wrong height and these explosives hit the water they’d explode and they’d do the exact opposite to what they were meant to do. They’d blow you up.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: That was the main thing. And then also German fighters would patrol the coast and they had an advantage that they were controlled by radar etcetera. And they’d pick up you flying at a relatively low speed and not coming back. That’s what it amounted to. And there were quite a number who never came back as a result of mining operations. And it’s, I remember it was the entrance to the main shipping harbour in to Belgium or Amsterdam, somewhere in that area. And we would mine the, along the coast and to the mouth of the river, I suppose. It might have been river. I don’t know. Gulf anyhow. And I wish I could remember the name of the place. Well known port. Biggest port, I think in Europe. So that was the first one and we thought we were pretty good naturally. Then we had an operation to — we had a couple of them, mining. And then we did one to [pause] oh dear. The German city is, was in the Ruhr and in English it means food. So if you knew German you’d be able to tell me where I went. Food. Damn it.
JFSC: Essen.
AP: Essen. That’s right, very good. That was the first one. Essen. And then we had, came back and we were on another trip to Frankfurt on the Ruhr. Frankfurt – on – Main. The other Frankfurt’s over, well over in the eastern Germany. And we bombed Frankfurt but on our way home and a German night fighter took to us [unclear] in the – German night fighter took to us and shot us down. And I can tell you who it was. We’ve traced him. Heinrich Rokker. And he’d shot down sixty seven. He was an ace, as you can imagine, in the Luftwaffe and he shot down sixty seven four-engine bombers, Halifaxes and Lancasters. And he shot us down. And we only found that out much later. One member of the crew had paid a, he’s dead now, this member of the crew paid a visit to this Heinrich and was well received and he said the greatest danger it was that he couldn’t get away from Heinrich who was very happy to entertain him all day and all night. I never met Heinrich but I know all about him. And I’ll get to the reason that later on because that will tell you the story of what actually happened. So we were shot down and Patrick Edwards, who was twenty one at the time. I was just turned twenty. The rest of the crew were —
JFSC: The rest of the crew were twenty, twenty one, twenty two except for one old bloke who, he was, he was old. At least in our mind he was old. And his name was Ralph Parsons. We used to refer to him as Bloody Old Parso because he was so old. He was twenty seven. So that was the age of the crew, twenty seven — one. The rest in the vicinity of twenty, twenty one, twenty two I think. At the, the whole crew are now dead. I’m the sole survivor. I’m the sole survivor at, well ninety three really. Well ninety three next month.
AP: Looks pretty good for it too.
JFSC: Yeah. Yes. So I didn’t expect to be the sole survivor at all, but that too was a case of — we were shot down there. The starboard engine was shot to pieces and burst into flames. And all engines had exhaust, not exhaust, what do they, they call them? Extinguishers in them, which were supposed to control any fire that occurred in the engine itself. And the pilot ordered the extinguishers to be put on in the starboard engine, and the engineer did that, he reported, he did that, but he said they didn’t work, or they weren’t good enough. And never, I’ll never know of course but the fire still continued until it broke out into the wing itself, and then it spread along and it was burning fiercely in the engine and it spread out into the wing. And that would have traced oil or petrol coming down from the tanks there. And I was sitting in the mid-upper turret, and I was sort of looking down on it. So I could sort of report to the pilot exactly what I saw, which I did do. But it was a fierce fire and it got fiercer as it moved along the wing, and not certain whether it actually hit the inboard engine or not. Probably if it didn’t it would have, so the pilot baled us out, gave us instructions to bale out, which we did, six of us. And he stayed with the plane, and it was only his bravery and, and thought for us that he stayed with the plane and allowed us to get out in time. But he crashed in the plane and was killed obviously on impact. And he was buried at a little village called Belterhausen. B E L T E R S E N, I think. You can check that one. And [pause]
AP: I’m just going to stop it here.
JFSC: Still means a lot to me.
AP: Oh I’m sure. I can, I can tell it does because you still have your pilot’s photo up on the wall.
JFSC: Just give me a moment.
AP: Yeah. No problem at all.
[recording paused]
JFSC: Strange after all these years, and that was in December the 20th 1943 and here I am emotional. Anyhow, Pat was, gave his life for his crew and, I’m still in contact with the only member of his, the Edwards family that exists. Bruce Edwards was Pat’s younger brother, and I went and visited Mr and Mrs Edwards who lived in Newcastle. That’s when I got home and was able to tell them of my experience with their son Patrick, and how I owed my life to him. Bruce was only a schoolboy at the time and I’ve kept up contact with him right up until a phone call about a month ago just to find out how I’m going. And I have been up and I’ve stayed with the Edwards’ but they’re all dead except Bruce. Pat’s sister Mari who I got on well with in Newcastle. And she married an RAF bloke and lived in England, in England. And the times I’ve been to England I’ve always gone to see Mari. But she died just fairly recently. So the only connection is Bruce who is a retired solicitor now. So that’s my connection, but with the Edwards family which I’ll never forget of course.
AP: What was the first moment that you realised that you’d been shot down?
JFSC: Well, I probably had the best view of the fire. I’ll just turn that heater down a bit. I probably had the best view of the fire. Well I did have the best view of the fire because the others, some of them didn’t see it at all. And I remember saying to Pat, ‘Pat that’s breaking out into the wings.’ And he said, ‘Well, look at it we’ll have to abandon the aircraft, and I said, ‘I think so,’ and that’s when he said to abandon. So I suppose my view of the fire affected what I said. And which I believe was correct because when you’re sitting on front of a big flames, burns and smoke burning. And you could see it gradually moving along into the other engine, you had to make some decision, and Pat obviously was more occupied with — and the plane at this stage had gone into a dive. Because it lost power on one engine, and I think it probably lost the power on the other engine in due course. He had trouble in controlling it, and he eventually did get some control over it. That’s where it enabled us to get out because if it had gone into a spin you could — the centrifugal force would plaster you on to the walls of the plane, and that’s it. So, I probably didn’t realise then. I wasn’t — funny thing, I wasn’t frightened, like thinking back over it. I was, I knew what I was saying, I knew that what I was saying was the actual facts, and I knew that as soon as Pat said, ‘Abandon aircraft,’ I had to go, along with the others. So I bailed out of the rear entrance. And I fell, like I was conscious. I didn’t have time to take off — I had an electrical suit on for warmth, didn’t have time to take that off or anything like that. It would have been difficult to take it off anyhow. It would have been mad if I’d have tried it. So I fell and I can remember turning over. I can remember the plane passing over me and I was conscious I didn’t want to be caught in the tail of the plane. There were some cases of some poor individual got parachute — got caught up in the tail of the plane and he was dragged to his death. I think it has happened more than once. So I was conscious of that so I saw the, I don’t know whether you should have counted one, two, three, four, five or what, but I don’t remember doing that but I remember the tail of the plane passing over my head and disappearing and that’s the last I saw of it. It was on fire burning. I saw what happened. And I know now that we were over mountains and the plane must have come down on the other side of the mountain, and that blocked my view of anything that happened. That’s my interpretation of why I didn’t see it crash. So I landed in the ploughed paddy. You wouldn’t believe it, nice relatively soft landing in a ploughed paddy having no idea where I was. I managed to do all the wrong things. Got tangled up in the shroud, fell over backwards and in a cow shed but I was alright. I fought my way out of the shroud. And the instructions were very strict by the RAF. Get out of the area as fast as you can. Bury or hide your ‘chute. Hide up if it’s daylight. Hide up. But we didn’t fly during the days over the enemy territory, so it was unnecessary. But scram as fast as you can. And I did all those things. I gathered all the ‘chute up and I got into a forest which I just walked into. It was a pine forest of some description and after I’d gone in a certain distance — I didn’t have a clue where I was. I didn’t have a clue, north, south, east or west. But the main thing was get out of the area you came down in. And the plane was probably coming down at four or five hundred miles an hour so that everybody came down at a different time. And as far as I can see I was probably the second last or last out of the plane. So I don’t know what happened to the others and they didn’t have any idea what happened to me. I dug a hole with my hands in the forest and put the parachute and equipment that I had on me — Mae West and harness. And I tell you we all carried a kit, escape kit which contained a certain amount of money of all denominations and Horlicks tablets. And tablets which you’re supposed to put in a rubber water bottle and it purifies the water. And then the main thing was a silken map about the size of that and on one side was the map of Germany with the rivers and the main roads as far as I can remember. I would like to have kept that. And on the other side of — Europe, France, Belgium and Holland etcetera, and the same thing, but on the other side of the handkerchief. It was a handkerchief or a half scarf and that was silk. And that was all sort of in the escape kit which was kept in a pocket in your battledress here. And you wouldn’t dare open it unless you came down.
AP: Unless you needed it.
JFSC: Blokes were always dead keen to get hold of that that money. I can remember, in due course that was. I went for my life. Then after a bit of a rest in the forest I decided to go further on as far as I could but I wanted to hide up during the day. So I came to the edge of the forest when daylight was more or less breaking and I couldn’t see anywhere other than a bridge, little bridge. And I spent the next day underneath the bridge along with all the spiders etcetera, [laughs] which didn’t help me. At that stage I opened up my escape kit as they were known then and I counted my money which was, from memory was Dutch and Danish and French, Dutch, yeah. And I don’t think it would have got me very far on the local bus. There was hardly anything. But it was all genuine money and we had been promised that it was genuine money. You had to hand the escape kits back in when you landed at home. And they said that it was a death penalty for anybody who had counterfeit money in Germany during the war years. That’s what we were told. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t, I don’t know. But I accepted the fact that it was the correct money. So I counted that a couple of times just in case I made a mistake. It was impossible, make a mistake [laughs] anything up to five, five notes or something. And then darkness came and I was ready. I’d had, believe it or not I’d had a sleep of some description underneath the bridge. And then the darkness came and I was about on my way. I’d taken my flying boots off to relieve my feet a bit and counted my money again. That was important [laughs] because it filled in the time, looked at the map, and thought, yes — Paris. I’ll have a week in Paris before I turn myself in, or I contact the underground. So I marked out. It never occurred to me I had to cross two or three rivers between Frankfurt and the Rhine. And the Rhine at that point as far as I could see must have been half a mile wide. And I think, oh that’s alright, I’m sure to get over that. But then I was about to move and I’d stopped in a barn. It was about to snow, cold like today. And that’s why I’d stopped over night and had a bit longer than normal. And I’d made a hole in the weatherboards of the barn. I think I knocked out a notch in it, made it a bit bigger with another piece of timber. And all of a sudden I saw a farmer coming up carrying a gun, a rifle of some description, and two dogs. I’ve had it if he comes in the barn. And he did, with his dogs. Came in the barn and he poked round quite some time and I’m hiding behind stacked wood, firewood in a corner. And I thought I’m getting away with this. And the blinking dogs smelled me out and they got very excited. The farmer got very excited. And the only person who was calm and, as a cucumber was me. But anyhow he’s screaming his head off which made the dogs more excited and barking, and the look of them. They didn’t need a dentist to look at their teeth, they had perfect maulers and both of them fronting me and his screaming and dark brought more people out of the farmhouse which not so very far away. I don’t know. I say a hundred metres but I haven’t got any idea really. But it was quite close. And they came running, women and all and I was a goner. I knew I was a goner. So I went — the only. In the end the only person that was calm was myself. The people that came were excited, he was excited, the dogs were excited. And it was a real circus except I didn’t enjoy it. Anyhow, I was marched down the main street escorted by a young bloke who had a gun who’d come out of the farmhouse and could have been a soldier on leave. I don’t know. And the old farmer with his shotgun which he’d joined together at this stage ready to put a bullet through me. There’s no way knowing I was going to make a break for it at that stage. And I got knocked about a little bit by a young bloke who, you know. It was the old — he, I think he kicked me once or twice but it was mainly this [demonstrates] and I reckon I would have taken on Joe Louis, I would. You know. A really. At least I thought I was. But I was sensible enough not to fight back. If I’d fought back I’d heard tales of some blokes fighting back, silly, and getting beaten up good and proper. But I didn’t fight back. I protected myself as best I could which wasn’t particularly good. They marched me down. I met another bloke. They searched me for the umpteenth dozen time in that march down the village street. Everybody wanted to make certain I didn’t have a gun of some description. They even made me take the flying boots off. I don’t know what they expected in there. Luckily at that time they gave them back to me. They took them in a van later on. And then I met a bloke who went through me again as I went in. He picked up what I did carry always with me, Rosary beads. And I still carry them and I, he took them from me. He threw them on the ground and he stamped on them. And I wasn’t going, that about what it amounts to, I wasn’t going to pick them up. I thought, well I don’t have to have them. And I walked on, or was pushed on. And I’d gone another twenty or thirty metres I suppose and I felt a nudge on my back. And I sort of turned around expecting to find another bloke with a gun in his hand. And this was an old bloke who was probably not — well I was twenty I think at that stage and he was probably forty at the most but he was an old bloke as far as I was concerned. And he nudged me and said, ‘Catholic?’ And I nodded and he dropped the broken rosary beads in to my hand. And they were too, well I used them for a long time but they eventually sort of broke. Some of them were broken and they were cracked and that. They were sometime like that. And I don’t know what I’d done with them in the long run. I’d lost them so, and I never saw him again. And I don’t think anybody saw him doing it. I don’t know. But anyhow they were a great comfort to me. Then I was pushed into a cell. The local lock up which was below, the window was at the surface of the footpath outside. The cell was below and it was a broken window and I didn’t — I suppose it was, actually, as it turned out all that was locking me up locally until they got somebody of authority. And this was true. A bloke arrived. He had a hat on which had a velvet hat and he had a leather coat on and I’d been to the pictures about a week before in England the week before and I saw an SS bloke with the velvet hat and the leather coat. And he was come to take me. I thought, ‘Oh, hell’s bells.’ And whilst I was in the cell the local kids threw rubbish at me. Saw that the window was broken and I spent most of the time going from one side to the other. Down, up and down. And they threw everything at me and yelling at me but I didn’t understand a word of German so I couldn’t understand it. Anyhow, the SS bloke, he was an SS, Gestapo rather, bloke with the velvet hat and leather coat, and he came on a motorbike. So he took me away on a motorbike and chained me like that to the seat. Not, not — he rode a — what do you call it, a sidecar? So I was chained to the sidecar and I was hoping he was a good driver because I was going to arrive in a bad mess. Anyway he was sent and we arrived at a jail in Frankfurt. I wasn’t very far away from Frankfurt. And — am I alright?
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
JFSC: From there I was passed. He tried to do an interrogation and his English was [unclear] but I thought I was a smarty. I said that I couldn’t understand him and his English wasn’t good enough and that made him mad. And it made me mad too because I thought a stupid thing to say. I should have had more sense, just ignored him. And then I ended up in a place called Dulag Luft which every prisoner of war, air force prisoner of war finished up in. Dulag Luft. And that was in to a cell which was pretty, far less than — I could touch both sides. Because I used to do my exercise and I was there for about a week and I had a couple of interrogations. And all they got out of me was name, number and rank. And I stuck with that because the powers that be in England said, ‘If you start answering or have conversations with them you’ll find it, find it hard to stop.’ And that’s true. I spent Christmas day of all days in this lock up. Never saw a soul. Said, yelled out ‘Happy Christmas,’ [laughs] to anybody that could hear. Somebody in another cell — they yelled out too. That’s all we said. But my worry was that I was alright but I knew my mother who was a widow would be suffering. They would, the air force would have told her that I was missing on operations, which was right. Whereas I knew I was alright. So there you are. I upset the interrogators by insisting and quoting the Geneva Convention that that was all I had to say and he knew that was right. So in the end the Yanks got me out in the strip to the extent there was a big raid somewhere. The American Air Force had had a big raid on one of the cities somewhere very handy. I don’t know where. And they wanted the cells. And at least I take it they wanted the cells because all of a sudden there was about thirty air force blokes pushed out of their cell, their own private cell and gathered together and I think the Yanks were going to go in to there. I don’t — but that’s a certain amount of guesswork but it all happened all of a sudden. So, from there I went to, from Frankfurt. From Dulag Luft outside Frankfurt to Stalag 4B in Muehlberg in Saxony which is over in South East Germany in between, probably Berlin, Leipzig and Dresden, that group of. And Saxony was in that area and we were in Muehlberg. And I remained there in Muehlberg [pause] Am I going on too long?
AP: No. No. I have all the time in the world.
JFSC: I remained there. I had ideas of escaping and I changed places with a South African. The air force never worked. They were, couldn’t be trusted on the outside of the wire and they had, the Germans had good reason [laughs] to believe that. So, and the army, there was the camp at one stage had about forty thousand prisoners in it of every nationality. And I changed. And the army had to work. And they were taken out in work parties to do anything and everything I think. So I thought that’s a way out. If I can get out the main gate I’m on the way home. I had some funny ideas. I was optimistic. So I changed places entirely, with clothing, with any letters, where he came from in South Africa, where I came from in Australia. And we wrote our names down and put a sort of name there so that if we were caught we could say, ‘Yeah. That’s my home address.’ I went out and I spent a few days out as a private. I don’t know what his name was now — and working in the forest. And I found there were tighter restrictions there than in the camp. At least I thought so. There were more guards. They seemed to be closer to you all the time and at night you were locked up with a padlocked door sort of thing. So I thought, and the arrangements that were that they would, the workers would come back in to the main camp, Stalag 4B, for a shower if they were doing dirty work and we were doing dirty work. And I came back. It was every day but I don’t know every ten days you got a shower or something like that. You had to sort of wash in cold water otherwise but these were hot showers in the camp. And I’d arranged to come back. I decided to go back into the camp by changing places again with him, with this South African. At the shower we sort of changed. And that was the last time I saw of him. I never — I did it with another bloke but it wasn’t satisfactory. He was, he seemed to be more scared than I was. He was probably right too. And he didn’t last very long. He wanted to get out of the camp and get back to his mates, I think, in the work party. Anyhow, so that was my attempt, pretty poor. But then we were, had a secret radio in our hut and it was in a broom that sat in the corner of the hut and was inside a broom and it sat there for as long as I can remember. Long before I got there and I presume long after I left, it sat there. And a couple of RAF wireless operators had built it and I understand that they had a German soldier who had broken the rules at some time or other and they were blackmailing him that they’d tell the commandant if he didn’t do this and didn’t do that and they, they got a valve for the radio. And they built it. I don’t know how but they, it’s claimed that. The two of them were pretty smart boys apparently. So at 9 o’clock every night they came up to listen to the BBC news. They weren’t in the hut with the, with the radio. I think that was sort of part of the security. They’d come up in the darkness which was quite risky and settled down. And about two hundred blokes would be on the watch for Germans, peering into the darkness. So, and they’d make a list. I’d write the list and the news down and that would go around all the English speaking huts. The French, I think, did their own thing. I don’t know but it wouldn’t have been much good in have a radio in French when nobody could speak French but and then that would go around. Somebody would take it around and then I believe the bloke in our hut used to eat the paper [laughs] most paper would burn but he used to eat it. I don’t know whether he was that hungry [laughs]. So we didn’t know what was going on, and towards the end we could hear the guns firing from, from, coming from the Russians in the east. And we could see the bombers flying in to bomb Berlin and Dresden. And we were about thirty kilometres from Dresden when the big raid occurred. And Dresden, as far as I can remember, burned for a week. They couldn’t control it. And it used to flame up during the night and the smoke would be there during the day, black smoke. It was the best part of a week before they controlled it. Then the Russians overran the camp. Just to finish off quickly the Russians overran the camp, Zhukov’s army, he was the big noise in the Russian army. He over rode the camp and he said to our man — we had what we called a Man of Confidence who was our man between us and the Germans. And he was a Canadian who spoke German. And he acted as a Man of Confidence and was very good at it too. And the Germans accepted him and he accepted the Germans. So he was telling us what was happening. And then all of a sudden the Germans disappeared one night completely. We didn’t know it, never knew anything about it. And they disappeared one night. We’d wake up in the morning, we used to have roll call at 7 o’clock or half past 7. Something like that, every, and we had to get out of bed and stand in the cold and they’d count them. Some blokes would say we’d trick the Germans. We used to have five in a row and then they’d gradually move together and he’d count four. Then you’d have to have a recount. And then the next recount they’d move out the other way and he’d got seven. But there used to be arguments in the camp as to whether we should do it or not because blokes were shivering. But it’s the only thing we could do [laughs] It was really funny but it was a bit annoying in the cold. Anyhow, the Russians were in control and they said what food in the camp was yours and you feed yourselves and then you’re on your own. And this was from the Russian Army. So we did use the food in the camp and then of course we had to go outside and the Russians were sort of in control of the camp but you just had to be very careful not to annoy them otherwise they’d shoot you. I went out one time to get a couple of chooks. Get a chook anyhow, to cook. We had nothing to eat. And I went out with three other blokes and I went out looking for the chooks. And one went, I went one way and another went the other way and I struck up with a Russian who — I heard the bolt of his rifle change. And he was shoving at me and that and I‘ve got my hands in the air and I got a chook in one hand. And when, and then I made a bolt for it. He was as full as a goog. He was drunk. He couldn’t, could hardly stand to hold a rifle and I thought well it’s now or never. So I made a bolt down one lane and back to where the other blokes were. And all I could say they tell me was, ‘Ruski, Ruski. They’re coming they’re coming.’ We rushed down to the cellar. By the time we got down to the cellar I’d got a dead chook. I’d strangled it [laughs] poor old chook. But we enjoyed him. In due course we enjoyed him and the Russian never came near us. So we had, then I decided that’s enough for me. I’m going. The Americans were coming up from the west. The Russians were already coming east and they were saying, ‘You’ve got to stop in the camp.’ The Russians were. But five other blokes and myself that I talked into, air force blokes. I said, ‘I’m going if anybody’d like to come with me. And I want you to come with me because I’m scared stiff.’ And we went and we got out of the camp and we went to a place called Riesa. It was a little village on the River Mulde. I can remember those clearly. I can remember. And the war ended whilst we were in Riesa. And the Russians fired up the main street and they ran their tanks straight through houses where blokes took a liking to. And they fired heavy artillery shells. I don’t know where they landed but they certainly were too close. And by then we had commandeered a unit on the second floor so we could watch the river. And we were waiting for the Yanks to sort of cross the river. And we waited and we waited for three or four days and we decided to — some were the other blokes said that we would pinch a boat but nobody knew where a boat was. We’ll make a raft. Nobody had a hammer, nails or anything. And then it was decided to swim it and I thought, Oh. Swim it, bloody half a mile wide. And all I’ve got is have I learned to swim twenty five yards. Anyhow, we saw an American patrol approaching to this broken down railway bridge that had been, I don’t know who did it, probably the Germans to stop the Russians from following. And we made for this. We thought, oh we’ll make, I don’t know how we were going to get across but we made for it and the American blokes came and they luckily had a Russian interpreter and the Russians came up behind us and we’re on the edge of the bridge and the Russians are here. And the Americans were off. They’d stop for thirty forty metres away from the bridge. Candidly I thought the third world war was going to break out any time and we were the meat in the sandwich. But it didn’t. All of a sudden, I don’t know what happened but the Americans brought one of those tanks that had a span on it that they put over and we went over that on our hands and knees. I was dead scared that somebody had rocked the thing but [laughs] and I’d fall into the river and think that’s the end. And we were taken by the Americans to Leipzig. From Leipzig they in due course flew us to Brussels. We got out of the plane and were told to lay in the grass in the sunshine in Brussels. And the Lancasters arrived and it was beautiful. It was good. I’d never travelled in a Lancaster before. And I was the only one with a jacket, a recognisable jacket. And I got invited by the pilot to take the pilot’s dickie seat and the rest of the blokes who were air force had to be [laughs] down the back, being pushed further. No seats or anything. So landed in England and I was crook. I got shoved in the hospital and eventually came home.
AP: How did you find after that rather —
JFSC: How did I —?
AP: After that rather amazing experience how did you find getting back to civilian life?
JFSC: Getting [unclear][pause] I don’t know what I’m doing here. I’m getting [pause] No. It doesn’t seem to be working. I don’t know what that means.
AP: You don’t know what that means. After that rather amazing experience how did you find re-adjusting to normal civilian life?
JFSC: I had a job to go back to which helped a lot. And I came back and I did miss folks who were in the camp with me a bit in that they were ahead of me. I went in the hospital in England for a couple of weeks. Ten days. A couple of weeks, I think. I can’t remember. And they moved on whereas I was stationery. And eventually I sort of had and I didn’t have the crew that I’d been used to because they’d moved on. And they were four weeks, fortnight in front of me I think, never caught up with them at any stage. But I made, I met up with some other blokes that I knew. Eventually knew or got to know. And I think I handled it alright. I knew I was going home in due course, the shipping problem. There was a shipping problem in England immediately after the war. They, the Brits did the right thing. They were trying to move all the foreign troops out of the country. And they had thousands upon thousands of Americans there. And French. And every, every nation under the sun was there. They were all saying the, ‘When are you taking me home?’ attitude. And I had to wait until they had a ship load of Aussies going home, which I did do. But by that time I’d settled down in England. The company I worked for in Melbourne had an office in London so I got in touch with the London office and they gave me a job for a period of time which meant that I had to get permission from the RAAF to take it, naturally which I did do. And I took this job with William Horton and Co which was my company. And I worked for them and I came home in late November ’45, or December ’45. I’m not certain what date. But that job helped considerably I’m sure and I got double pay which was very nice. The company gave me pay and of course I was getting back pay from the air force [laughs] and nobody minded. They knew. The company said they knew I was being paid. And I said, ‘Oh yeah. I wouldn’t give that up. Actually the air force should give me more money than any company.’ [laughs] So then I was discharged in April ’46, I think. And I haven’t had any trouble. I’ve had a good family right from the beginning. I wasn’t married. I married in some years. Not — Glenne is my second wife and I’ve been married to Glenne for twelve years. And I was married to my first wife for sixty one I think years. I was married in ’49 and she died in 2003 I think. So that’s quite some time isn’t it? So I’ve had a very happy time in my life and that’s all helped. And I’ve got a good family. I’ve got one brother left now and he’s sixty. And I’ll be sixty three next month. And he’s sixty. And we’re funny thing just this is nothing to do — with my father was in the First World War. Can I — ?
AP: Yeah. Keep going. Please.
JFSC: Was in the First World War and won the Military Medal on Anzac Cove. And wore the Military Medal at the time when he was moved to Flanders. And he was recommended and the story over there recommended for the DCM. And everything went forward by two CO’s. And he never actually collected it. And he never did anything about it. And Paddy, my brother and I are now fighting for it. And it’s been going for five years.
AP: Oh yeah.
JFSC: And it’s all in writing by two separate CO’s, nothing to do with us. We think that he was awarded it and then the war in September 19 what ‘18 and the war ended in November and they said — right that’s all finished. Whoof. Everything entered the junk yard. But that could have happened. But now, it’s quite interesting. I’ll show you the latest letter I’ve got from them. Just at the top. No. No. No. Yeah. There.
AP: That one.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Oh yes.
JFSC: Yeah. You can read that letter and that’s the position that it’s in.
[pause]
AP: Still learning.
JFSC: Still there. Yeah. That’s Paddy reckons he knew the CO but I said, ‘You can’t put that in the same letter. He’ll think we’re bribing him.’
AP: Another one.
JFSC: Yeah. So that’s just aside.
AP: Yeah. So I was actually going to ask whether you had any family in the first world war so that explains that side.
JFSC: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: So I guess that also explains why you —
JFSC: Yeah, certainly. I’d like you to read that.
AP: Yeah. Certainly.
JFSC: That, to me, is the most important document I’ve got. But that’s the photo of him with the Military Medal but then below that his —
AP: Yeah, very nice.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: I guess that explains why you joined up and why you wanted to join the air force and not the army.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Most of all because of your father’s experience.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Alright. One last question before we wrap up. For you what is Bomber Command’s legacy and how do you want to see it remembered?
JFSC: How do I — ?
AP: How do you want to see Bomber Command remembered?
JFSC: I think they were the most amazing blokes I have ever met and likely to meet because it was a dicey situation there and yet they all took it in their stride. I’m sure that there were some who reneged but I never heard of them. I never saw them or heard of them on my squadron. But I don’t know. And blokes that I know even now that, even though I didn’t know them during the war years like for instance Laurie Larmar and jack Powell who was actually in Stalag 4B at the same time as I was but I didn’t know him. But I know he was because I’ve got a list of blokes who were in Stalag 4Band he’s among them. And also he’s told me stories and they’re still an amazing lot of fellas. And in the crew I had two Englishmen — the rear gunner and the engineer. And all engineers were English because Australians didn’t, didn’t train engineers, flight engineers. And the result is that we had an English engineer. And they’re both dead now. And their father was Australian. And I kept in touch with them but they all died of natural causes I’ll put it then. And they were still the same. There was, I’d ring them up and they’d ring them me. I think I did most of the ringing but they, the last one to die was the wireless operator and he died in a rest home in New South Wales fairly recently within the last twelve months. And he was still the same wireless operator that I flew with and anytime I went to Sydney I always went to see him. He used to drive me mad at times because he thought he was still in the air force [laughs]. But he was, he was the only officer in the crew too. Not that we took any notice of him. He had no authority really. Maybe on the ground but he didn’t in the air. Patrick was the authority and I admire you and admire the people that are doing something for. I said to Glenne, my wife, ‘I wish that I could do something.’ I said Laurie and I sat on seats while the people who did all the work around us weren’t in Bomber Command but they did so much for Bomber Command. And the pair of us just sat on seats. And she said, ‘But how old’s Laurie?’ I said, ‘Oh he’s ninety odd.’ And she said, ‘Do you expect him to carry tables or something?’ She said, ‘You’d be silly enough to carry one.’ I said, ‘No but I didn’t.’ So that’s I don’t know whether that shows you anything or not but it’s a marvellous organisation. I do belong to bomber Command in England. And I belong up here in Australia. Yeah. That’s —
AP: Bomber Command Association UK.
JFSC: It’s yeah the RAF really.
AP: Yeah.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: So you’re still part of the active veteran community if you like.
JFSC: Well, yes. I am when I can be.
AP: I think I saw you on the television news once selling, selling for Legacy or something at [unclear] fields.
JFSC: Yes. That’s right. I’m all for it, and whether anyone will attest to that or if I can give some help. Now one of the —
[pause]
JFSC: Can you imagine how blokes were in the Lancaster as they stand and this is what happens to them when they crash.
AP: Oh wow.
JFSC: Harsh what those pieces.
AP: Of your aircraft.
JFSC: Where they come from.
AP: Wow.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Hits the purse strings.
JFSC: Yeah. I’ve been to that site. I don’t know where the other half is.
AP: Wow.
JFSC: Yeah. And they were all Bakelite.
AP: Yeah
JFSC: Today they would be plastic.
AP: [unclear] That’s astonishing.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: That’s very cool
JFSC: Somebody said what are they to you? I said I couldn’t put a value on them. They meant so much to me.
AP: Yeah. I can very much appreciate that.
JFSC: But [pause] you know it doesn’t kill me the thought of it but that I went to the Germans [pause] got a photo of them there, no blow me I must have taken it down. Got bits of [pause] I went to Germany with Glenne really to see where the plane crashed and where Patrick was buried originally. I’ve been three times to Germany. And I went and I met Germans. Two or three Germans who were — I suppose one was a detective. One was a real estate bloke. One was a railway man. One was a fireman later on. So who were interested and I’ve got their names and I’ve got their photo. If you want them you’re welcome to it — who were interested in chasing every plane that came down around Frankfurt. The area around there I think, more or less, home towns. They didn’t live in Frankfurt but they lived outside Frankfurt and then they started a little museum which they’ve got the tail plane of my plane and there’s no doubt about it because on the tail plane on the inner part of it is 274 and the 7 is the German — not the German 7 but the English 7. And they sort of had part and parcel of just the big tail plane and they took me to where the plane came down and that’s where they came from. And then they spoke, one in particular spoke very good English. And he asked me would like to see where Patrick Edwards was buried originally. And I said yes. I took the codes from my hand and they took me to the original site. And that was in the Belterhausen cemetery. And after the war the RAF went through Germany and [pause] what do they call it whatever the word is took in turn all airmen in a Commonwealth grave. And Pat is now in the Commonwealth governments. I think that’s what it’s called. There’s about three thousand airmen buried in —
AP: Reichwald or something.
JFSC: Not the town, town below. My memory’s just fading a bit.
AP: Hanover. Hanover.
JFSC: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where he’s buried.
[pause]
JFSC: One of the bravest men I ever knew.
AP: On that note I think I’ll turn the recording off. Thank you very much Jim. I really appreciate it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ACahirFS160608
PCahirJ1601
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Francis Shamus "Jim" Cahir
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:08:33 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-08
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Cahir grew up in Australia. He originally joined the army but later was transferred to the Royal Australian Air Force. He flew operations as a mid upper gunner with 466 Squadron. His aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war. after several failed escape attempts, he was eventually liberated by the Russians.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Oberursel
Poland--Tychowo
Germany--Riesa
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
466 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bale out
crewing up
Dulag Luft
faith
fear
final resting place
Halifax
killed in action
mine laying
prisoner of war
RAF Leconfield
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1211/15764/EStottAEBlandfordJ440504.1.jpg
95b18e2fce34c513edf705c5f9baab73
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stott, Robert
Stott, R
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Robert Stott (162588) DFM and contains photographs, letters and correspondence relating to his award of the Distinguished Flying Medal and his subsequent death in action on 26/27 November 1943. He flew operatoins as an air gunner with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna. <br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jim Yule and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle. <br />Additional information on Robert Stott is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/122514/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">IBCC Losses Database</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Yule, J
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EStottAEBlandfordJ440504
Personal letter dated from Agnes Stott to Mr. Blandford regarding the safe return of his son; two days before news of the loss of her husband, and information of burial in Belgium
194 High Street
Musselburgh
Mid. Lothian
4:5:44
Dear Mr. Blandford,
Im [sic] thanking you for your letter received here 25/4/44. And I am more than delighted that your prayers have been answered and your son returned to you. Two days later I received word that my husband was killed on the 26th Nov. 1943 and three days later buried in grave No.355 in the cemetery of St. Frond, Belgium.
Four other members of the crew are buried in neighbouring graves.
This news reached me unawares as I always believed my husband would return to my son and I. However we must carry on in the best way we can. Thanking you again for writing me. Trusting you and your son are reunited very soon.
Yours most sincerely,
Agnes E. Stott
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Robert Stott's wife, Agnes to Mr Blandford
Description
An account of the resource
Letter to Pilot Officer Blandford's father, thanking him for his letter, celebrating the fact that his son had survived and sharing the news that Robert and other crew members had died.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Agnes Stott
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-05-04
Format
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One handwritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EStottAEBlandfordJ440504
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11-26
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
final resting place
killed in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1211/15771/EStottAEBlandfordJVarious-0001.1.jpg
65f04fc15b366f25038cdf1a94c878ce
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1211/15771/EStottAEBlandfordJVarious-0003.1.jpg
d3dbeb216b0679a7febe5e494a6998eb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1211/15771/EStottAEBlandfordJVarious.2.pdf
9b8ab774343edb9a8f8c4b861f0263a8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stott, Robert
Stott, R
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Robert Stott (162588) DFM and contains photographs, letters and correspondence relating to his award of the Distinguished Flying Medal and his subsequent death in action on 26/27 November 1943. He flew operatoins as an air gunner with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna. <br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jim Yule and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle. <br />Additional information on Robert Stott is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/122514/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">IBCC Losses Database</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Yule, J
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EStottAEBlandfordJVarious
This letter is a repeat of EStottAEBlandfordJ440504.
194 High Street
Musselburgh
Mid. Lothian
4:5:44
Dear Mr. Blandford,
Im [sic] thanking you for your letter received here 25/4/44 and I am more than delighted that your prayers have been answered and your son returned to you. Two days later I received word that my husband was killed on the 26th Nov. 1943 and three days later buried in grave No.355 in the cemetery of St. Frond, Belgium.
Four other members of the crew are buried in neighbouring graves.
This news reached me unawares as I always believed my husband would return to my son and I. However we must carry on in the best way we can. Thanking you again for writing me. Trusting you and your son are reunited very soon.
Yours most sincerely,
Agnes E. Stott
The second is a letter of sympathy for Mr Blandford from Agnes Stott.
194 High Street
Musselburgh
Mid. Lothian
Scotland
11:2:44
Dear Mr. Blandford,
Im thanking you for your kind letter received here on the 3rd[?] Feb. 1944. I did not know how to take the news of my husbands [sic] death as the Air Ministry had not by then confirmed their letter arrived the following morning & they did tell me is that Bob is a “missing believed [inserted] killed [/inserted] Casualty” and that any further news received they will let me know.
The wireless operators [sic] wife & the bomb aimer’s father sent me the same news as you did.
And [?] I can say at this awful [?] time of waiting is God to give you strength to carry on. I know he will not let us suffer unnecessary[sic]. My Baby is my great comfort in this time.
I wonder if you would let me know/what [sic]
2)
news you received of your loss. I will let you know if I receive any more news.
I am
Yours very sincerely
Agnes. E. Stott
The third letter is from P/O Whittle to Mr Blandford trying to reassure him about his missing son.
[Ends of some words missing from right hand side of letter due to incorrect scanning]
P/O. G.G. Whittle D.F.M.,
Officer’s [sic] Ward
R.A.F. Hospital
Rauceby
Lincs.
14-1-44
Dear Mr. Blandford,
Many thanks for your letter received yesterday. I can appreciate how Mrs Bland [letters missing]
and yourself feel under the circumstances. So far I have not written to any of the relat [letters missing] of the crew. I do not think that I ought to until we get information as to their where abouts [sic].
At the time the crew were reported missing I was in hospital with a perforated ear-drum. I am once again in hospital with [letters missing]
[page break]
EWhittleGGBlandfordJ[Date]
same trouble.
When I arrived back a [missing letter]
the squadron I made enquiries but I am afraid I wasn’t very lucky. It seems that except for one spot – Frankfu [missing letters]
the trip was very quite [sic].
I am sorry that I can’t help you very much, [missing letters]
am right thinking one never can [missing letters?]
recognising the other aircraft. Any day now we should get some news though. I am confident that it will be good news - Bill Wallace was one of the be [letters missing]
pilots on the squadron. From my own experience I can assure [letters missing?]
that there would not be any panic – a big factor when a crew is baling out. If I should [letters missing]
hear anything. I have connections at the Red Cross – I will telegr [letters missing]
you straight away.
Yours sincerely
G.G.Whittle
P.S. My station address is on the envelope.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letters between Robert Stott's wife, Agnes and Mr Blandford
Description
An account of the resource
Five letters from Agnes Stott to Mr Blandford, a fellow crew member's father, and one to Mr Blandford from a fellow crew member (Pilot Officer G G Whittle) who did not fly with them on their last operation.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Agnes Stott
Pilot Officer G G Whittle
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-01-14
1944-02-11
1944-05-04
1943-12-19
1944-01-07
1944-01-28
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Photocopies of six handwritten letters
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EStottAEBlandfordJVarious-0001
EStottAEBlandfordJVarious-0003
EStottAEBlandfordJVarious
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1943-12
1944-01
1944-02
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
final resting place
killed in action
Lancaster
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1492/43441/ERowleySClaydonFM490502.2.jpg
42ea721e82231ad69d27b98769ae3177
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Claydon, Frank Edward
F E Claydon
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Claydon, FE
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Frank Edward Claydon (130537 Royal Air Force) and contains correspondence, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 166 Squadron and was killed 14 January 1944. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frances Madeley and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on Frank Edward Claydon is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/104367/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Frank Claydon's Widow from Air Ministry
Description
An account of the resource
The letter advises that her husband's body has been positively identified after exhumation. He has now been moved to the British Military Cemetery, Berlin.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Air Ministry
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1949-05-02
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten sheet
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ERowleySClaydonFM490502
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1949-05-02
aircrew
final resting place
killed in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1586/43752/MHuntWR520376-200127-02.1.jpg
6b5a1cbe482e5f06aa54fc113c5c95fb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hunt, William Richard
W R Hunt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-01-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hunt, WR
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Nine items including a photograph album of 18 items. The collection concerns Sergeant William Richard Hunt (520376 Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. He flew operations as an observer with 35 Squadron and was killed 19 May 1942.</p>
<p>The collection includes an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2561">album</a> with scenes of Gibraltar and Oran (Algeria), pre-war aircraft and RAF stations.<br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by William John Hastings and catalogued by Benjamin Turner. <br /><br />Additional information on William Richard Hunt is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/214002/">IBCC Losses Database</a></p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Notification of death
Description
An account of the resource
A letter sent by the Air Ministry detailing the death of Sergeant William Richard Hunt. The letter includes the date of William Richard Hunt's presumed death and where he is buried. It is signed by a Flying Officer.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Air Ministry
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-02-06
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-05-20
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
France
France--Ardennes
France--Charleville-Mézières
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Single page typewritten letter
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MHuntWR520376-200127-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
final resting place
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2514/43473/EAirMinCanniffJ441124.1.jpg
4b9fcc032fcefd36c409052a5727d3c1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Canniff, James
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. The collection concerns Sergeant James Canniff (652687 Royal Air Force) and contains correspondence, documents, and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 106 Squadron and was killed 25 August 1942. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Kathleen Smit and catalogued by Ella Keogh. <br /><br />Additional information on James Canniff is available via <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/103632/">the IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-20
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Canniff, J
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Report on Sergeant James Canniff’s Death
Description
An account of the resource
Reports that following Canniff’s death he was buried in Grave 34 in the English section of the Military Cemetery at Westduin. His was buried next to two comrades, Sergeant Johnson in Grave 33 and Sergeant Collingwood in Grave 35.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Air Ministry (Casualty Branch)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-11-24
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-08-25
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Netherlands
Netherlands--Hague
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Service material
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten letter
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EAirMinCanniffJ441124
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
106 Squadron
aircrew
final resting place
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2198/40172/BMcInnesAMcInnesAv1.2.pdf
039409582741300cd52a4251b3dd8e46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Royal Air Force ex-Prisoner of War Association
Description
An account of the resource
97 items. The collection concerns Royal Air Force ex-Prisoner of War Association and contains items including drawings by the artist Ley Kenyon.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert Ankerson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-29
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF ex POW As Collection
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Alan McInnes memoir
A German Holiday 1944-45
Description
An account of the resource
An autobiography by Alan of his time as a prisoner of war. He describes the night they were shot down over Germany. Also his training with his mainly Australian crew. Then he goes into more detail regarding the operation when he was shot down.
He describes their capture, mistreatment and interrogations at various locations. After interrogations at Dulag Luft they were sent to a transit camp in Frankfurt then on by train to Heydekrug, Stalag Luft VI. Although their camp section was new it was cramped and basic. He describes camp life in detail. As the Russians got closer they were sent by train to an Army camp at Thorn. He read a copy of NCO education in the camp. These courses were extremely popular and supported by text books sent from the UK. Exams were sat and papers sent to the UK for marking. At Thorn they marched to Stammlager 357 but not for long. They then marched back to the railway and were sent to Fallingbostel. He describes the rail journey in detail, then in greater detail he describes camp life.
Later he was moved to an officer's camp at Eichstadt. This turned out to be an Army camp which refused them and they were sent to Sagan. He stayed there for a short time then was moved to Stalag Luft 3, then 111A. As the Russians neared they moved again. After a couple of days waiting in trucks they returned to their camp. The railway system was breaking down as the end of the war neared.
After the Russians reached them they were allowed out of the camp but still remained billeted there. He writes about his impressions of the Russians.
His journey home was delayed by rain that did not allow aircraft to fly.
His story ends with his retelling of the night his aircraft was shot down, his night in Brussels and his return to England.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alan McInnes
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Magdeburg
Australia
Great Britain
England--Lichfield
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Stendal
Switzerland
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Lithuania--Šilutė
Poland
Italy
Canada
United States
Poland--Szczecin
Poland--Toruń
Greece
Greece--Crete
Poland--Vistula River
England--Staverton (Northamptonshire)
Germany--Bad Fallingbostel
Poland--Żagań
Poland--Bydgoszcz
Poland--Poznań
Germany--Pasewalk
Germany--Neubrandenburg
Germany--Stavenhagen
Germany--Malchin (Landkreis)
Germany--Güstrow
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Lübeck
Germany--Eichstätt
Germany--Munich
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Eisenach
Germany--Fürth (Bavaria)
Germany--Treuchtlingen
Germany--Ingolstadt
Germany--Regensburg
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Plauen
Poland--Wrocław
New South Wales--Sydney
Victoria--Melbourne
New South Wales
India--Jammu and Kashmir
China
England--London
Germany--Elbe
Germany--Potsdam
Germany--Jüterbog
Ukraine--Odesa
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Halle an der Saale
Belgium--Brussels
England--Brighton
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Hannover
Ukraine
Germany--Luckenwalde
Poland--Poznań
Germany
Germany--Hof (Hof)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
85 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BMcInnesAMcInnesAv1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01-21
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
83 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
bomb aimer
C-47
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
Dulag Luft
entertainment
final resting place
flight engineer
Fw 190
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
ground personnel
H2S
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
incendiary device
Lancaster
Mosquito
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
radar
RAF Bicester
RAF Lichfield
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wyton
Red Cross
shot down
sport
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 3
Stalag Luft 6
target indicator
the long march
training
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1157/11716/AThomsonGB171103.1.mp3
a0197b913e467d676a48c2f6a70f7465
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thomson, George
George Buchanan Thomson
G B Thomson
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer George Thomson (b. 1924) and five memoirs giving accounts of being shot down and his time as prisoner of war. He flew operations as a navigator with 15 Squadron and was shot down in September 1944.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by George Thomson and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Thomson, GB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right. So that’s live. Ok. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alastair Montgomery. The interviewee is Warrant Officer George Thomson, and the interview is taking place in George’s home in Newton Mearns near Glasgow. And this is the second part of an interview. The previous one concerned George’s life in the air and this is going to discuss his period from being shot down, captured and hopefully some of the period of the Long March. George, if you’d like to tell us about how you came to leave the aircraft and what happened when you reached the ground.
GT: Right. Well, 12th of September ’44 the target was Frankfurt. Three hundred and ninety eight Lancasters were scheduled to bomb Frankfurt that night. It was because of troops moving through the central station in Frankfurt. That was the target in any event. But we, part of 3 Group actually were doing a diversionary towards Mannheim first of all before turning up to Frankfurt. Others were going direct to Frankfurt. And we flew, flew at low level across France. We actually flew at about a hundred feet across France. My pilot loved flying low and we didn’t start climbing until we got to the German border. And we climbed up and we actually got to the bombing height of sixteen thousand feet and just to the north of Mannheim when we were attacked by two aircraft. There was one came in from the rear and there was a ME110 underneath us with the upward firing guns. And it fired and we didn’t know it was there of course but it obviously it hit our bomb bay and set some of the incendiaries alight. And although the wireless operator was trying to put it out with the fire extinguishers eventually the flames were spreading to the wing and the pilot just ordered us to bale out at that stage. So we baled out probably about local time over there it was about a quarter to twelve. It was a quarter to eleven here our time but I think it was about a quarter to twelve over there. And we’d taken some evasive action so probably we baled out at about twelve thousand feet. And the flight engineer went first. I went second. And the bomb aimer came out after me. And then the wireless operator. And the two gunners went out through the rear door. The pilot never got out at all. Anyway, we got out and we landed. Coming down you just don’t know when you’re going to hit the ground and I did eventually land in this field of maize. It was probably about four feet high. It was a very tall crop of maize which helped to break my fall. When I stood up and looked around I spotted a parachute up a tree in the corner of the field. It wasn’t at the top of the tree. It was lower down but caught up on one of the branches and I wandered over to see who this was. And it was the flight engineer who’d baled out ahead of me. And the two of us decided that we should get out there as fast as we could. We buried our parachutes and Mae Wests and we headed off then. We had a decision to make whether we’d head for Switzerland or head for Alsace Lorraine and we decided to go to Alsace Lorraine direction in the hope that we might pick up with British or American troops that were moving up in that direction in any event. So off we went and we walked that night ‘til we got to probably about 4 o’clock in the morning. We got to a river and there was no chance of us getting across that river. It was beginning to get a bit light anyway. The river was fairly fast flowing. Fairly wide. On the other side there were woods and ideally if we could have got into the woods it would have been better. But we couldn’t get in to the woods. And further down, about a hundred and fifty yards downstream there was a bridge with traffic occasionally going back and forward over it. So we decided we would stay where we were on the bank of this river. And it was actually on the edge of a farm. The farm buildings were probably about a hundred and fifty yards away and there was a slope from the farm fields down to the river and we just decided to stay in this slope in amongst the reeds and we stayed there pretty well all day. Pretty monotonous as you can imagine. And we periodically had a look over the top to see if there was any activity in the farm but there was none at all. We didn’t see anybody moving around and didn’t hear anything happening at all. So we waited there until it got dark enough that we could move down toward the bridge and we took a chance to get across the bridge. Traffic had pretty well subsided by that time. Most of it was military traffic. And we got across the bridge into the woods on the left hand side of the road and the rain came on and it pelted down. And we decided to get in to the woods and shelter there rather than walk on and get soaked. So we went into the woods and got shelter. In fact we found an old tin bath that we thought we’d put over our heads and that would keep us dry. But the noise of the rain [laughs] falling on the tin bath was more than we could bear. So we discarded the tin bath and just got wet. Not as wet as we’d have got if we’d carried on walking. We probably stayed there until about 3 o’clock in the morning and then started to walk on from there. Keeping to the woods but following this road that seemed to be running in the right direction. And periodically there was the odd bit of traffic on it but maybe one or two vehicles in an hour. That was all. During, and all military equipment that was being shipped around at that time. So we carried on walking until we got to the stage where we were, we hadn’t really slept at all so we decided that we’d doss down and have a, we’d taken a decision to walk at night and hide by day. So we, we carried on walking until we felt sufficiently weary that we’d bed down somewhere in the wood and we did. And we spent the day, most of the day there. And then carried on walking when it got dark again. Continued to follow this road which was going in the right direction and had another night in, in the wood. Walking through it and then the following day we rested up again. And we had one escape kit between us. Barry, the flight engineer had left his in the aircraft which wasn’t very smart because your escape kit actually fitted into the pocket of your battle dress. So we had one between us and we, we shared that out as best we could. But on that third day going down we eventually got to a point where there was a, the wood was beginning to thin out a bit and we could see this barn. It appeared to be deserted but it was sitting well off the road. We couldn’t see the farm at all. The barn it belonged to. But we watched the farm, the barn for quite a while. And then when we decided that it was vacant, there was nobody in it we went into this barn to shelter for that day and there was a ladder up to the loft. And we went up into the loft and there was some baggage stored up there. Farm baggage of various kinds and we, we got behind it and the two of us just bedded down for the day there. We took turns at sleeping. One of us kept awake and the other would go to sleep and then we’d turn over. And in the procedure when I was awake one time I was ferreting through some of the rubbish that was up there and I came across a pile of old newspapers. Pre-war newspapers. I couldn’t read them because they were in the old style German and even in the new style German I still couldn’t have read them. But in amongst the papers I came across a page with an advert for a petrol station and it had a map of the area. So I took the map out and that was it. Barry, before then Barry had actually said the first day when we were down by the river sheltering Barry had said, he was a pipe smoker and he had a tobacco pouch. And he said there was a map inside the tobacco pouch. So he opened up the tobacco pouch and took out the map and it was a map of the south of France [laughs] which wasn’t very much use to us at that time. But I found this. This map gave us our area. The roads in the area and it was pretty much as, as they were today. Or at least on that day when we were searching for them. So we stayed there until it got dark again and then we continued walking and again keeping to this road and following it going in the right direction. And eventually we got to the stage where we were really fearing that this walking through the wood was a slow process. So there was very little traffic on the road and we decided that we could probably walk on the road because it was a long straight road. It wasn’t quite an autobahn. It was just a long straight road and you could see traffic coming or going. And if any traffic was coming we just dived in to the side, into the woods and stayed there until the traffic passed. And that was it. We, we carried on in that way. We, it was probably, it was nearly a downturn because we walked on and we ran out of wood. And we had to walk on the road without any shelter from woods that we could go into. And there was a, of course the two of us in one area we passed a big farm field. And there were two labourers working in the field away at the other side. And they saw us and we saw them so we just waved to them and they waved back. I think the fact that there were two of us was a, was a safeguard in a way. And we carried on walking and lost sight of them. And we, we came to a slight bend in the road and we turned down this bend in the road and consternation. There was a village straight ahead of us. Houses on either side of the road. Not a very big village. Maybe about thirty houses. And there were women standing in the street and kids running about and they’d spotted us. And we thought oh what do we do? If we turn and walk back a way it might give some cause for alarm so we carried on walking and we just walked past the ladies. Nodded to them as we walked past. We were still of course still in our uniforms and I suppose the fact that our uniforms were not too dissimilar from the Luftwaffe uniforms maybe they just thought we were Air Force personnel. Luftwaffe personnel. But we just carried on walking straight through them and we got to the other end and then decided that we’d better sort of maybe try and find a bit more shelter. We had a [pause] another night we came across woods again and we walked into the woods and we had another night of shelter there. We changed our plans and decided we’d walk during the day and shelter at night. And we carried on walking the next day. And keeping to the side of the road but just walking down there were thin woods on the right hand side. And we came across a workman’s hut at the side of the road and we decided that, we watched it for a bit. There was no sign of any activity around about it so we went into this workman’s hit and decided to have a bit of a doss. You know lay down and get a bit of a rest. There was a knot in the wood panelling that faced the road. And you could watch what was happening through this knot in the wood. And consternation. An Army truck drew up alongside us. I thought this is it. This guy is coming into the hut. He got out and a woman got out the other side. And the two of them walked towards the hut but never came into it. They walked in to the woods. And about fifteen minutes later they walked back out and got into the truck and drove off. And if they were satisfied so we were we [laughs] because they hadn’t bothered with us at all. And that was how we managed to sort of evade any contact with civilians at that point in time. We carried on walking and by this time we were getting a bit peckish at this point. And we just found that down the roads that there were, the road sides they were lined with apple trees at this stretch. And of course we could get the apples off the trees and that was fine. That was, that helped to augment our poor rations that we had with us. And we got down a bit further on and we came across another workman’s hut set well back off the road. And it was getting towards evening by this time. And we had a look at it and nobody was around it. So we went into it and stayed the night in it and that was, that was fine. We’d also these apples to eat to augment our poor rations that we had. And the next day we carried on walking again and this time we came across another workman’s hut set back from the road. And this was an even better workman’s hut because it had a stove in it and a chimney out the top. And we’d actually passed a field on the way down towards this before we saw this hut with potatoes growing in it. So we dug up some of the potatoes and filled our pockets with the potatoes and took them with us hoping that we might be able to find some way of being able to use them. And of course when I came across this workman’s hut it was set back about thirty yards off the actual road. Up a very small path. It was fine. So Barry went off to gather some firewood to get the stove going and I went off in search of water. One of the things we had in our escape kit was a plastic water bottle with water purifying tablets. I found the river and filled up the bag and went back to the hut. And we got the stove going, roasted the potatoes, threw in some apples. So we had a two course meal. And before going to sleep I went outside to relieve myself. And to my horror there was flames shooting out the chimney about two or three feet in the air. So I went back in put the fire out and we stayed that night in the hut. That was ok. Nobody came anywhere near us. And then the next day we carried on walking. And this was about [coughs] excuse me about our seventh day walking and we got into an area where there was more suburbs. You could see these buildings down the side of the road but we kept clear of them until we got down to a point where we reached the road we were on actually ran in, right into this town. And we decided what we’d do and we thought well we’d better just take the chance and walk through the town. And we walked through, started walking through the town and we heard footsteps behind us and dived into a garden and hid behind a hedge while this person walked past and then we resumed our walk through the town. And we came across a marshalling yard, a railway marshalling yard and decided to go in and explore it. We knew we were getting down towards the Rhine and the, we thought there might be a possibility of getting down, finding a train or something that would take us across the Rhine. We had no idea about the size of the Rhine at that stage. I’ve seen it subsequently and I know we probably wouldn’t have got across it at all. Anyway, this town was called Rastatt. And we, we were in the marshalling yard. We actually got stopped by a uniformed person. He might have been a policeman. We couldn’t tell from his uniform but he nattered away to us and we just stood and shrugged our shoulders. And he lost interest and wandered off. I think he maybe thought we were foreign workers because there was a lot of foreign workers in Germany at that time. Anyway, he wandered off. We just beat it out of this place and decided to get as far away from Rastatt as we could but heading continuing to head towards the Rhine and Rastatt is actually situated right on the Rhine. The north bank of the Rhine. And I’ve been back at Rastatt twice on my travels post-war and it’s a beautiful town and we didn’t appreciate that at the time we were there. And we walked on that, this was the morning of our eighth day we walked on into the wood on the right hand side of the road and kept walking following the road for a bit. And then about 3 o’clock decided we’d better bed down. We weren’t going to get anywhere near the Rhine when it was beginning to get daylight. So we found a sheltered spot in the wood and bedded down and went to sleep there. And I was awakened somewhere about 7 o’clock with Barry shaking me in the shoulders and saying, ‘Look who’s coming.’ I looked up and there was four German soldiers bearing down on us with fixed bayonets. And there was a man standing, an elderly man standing in a corner. Quite a bit away. We decided he’d come in to, he was holding a bundle of wood in his arms. He’d come into the wood to gather wood. Into the wood to gather firewood and he’d spotted us and then gone to report us to this German Army camp which was two hundred yards away. We’d actually, we hadn’t seen it in the dark and it was actually an armoured regiment there but they were Austrians. Anyway the four soldiers took us back up to the camp and we were left there for quite a bit until the two officers eventually appeared. And they seemed slightly amused at the fact that we’d been caught you see. They, they could, well they didn’t speak any English. And eventually after about half an hour decided that they’d better get rid of us. So they loaded us onto a truck with two guards and they drove us into Rastatt and we went into the local county jail. What had probably been this county jail. It was still, this was under the control of the Austrian regiment that was running the camp as well and we got stuck in individual cells. I’d been in the cell about an hour when the door opened and in came this German officer. Well, he was, again he was an Austrian. But I didn’t know that at the time. But he came in with an NCO and the NCO said, ‘English?’ And I said, ‘No.’ ‘Ah, American.’ And I said, ‘No.’ And that was him. That was all the NCO knew was English and American. So he turned and spoke to the officer and then the officer turned and spoke to me in almost faultless English and said, ‘If you’re not English and you’re not American what are you?’ I said, ‘I’m Scottish.’ So he turned and explained to the NCO and the two of them had a wee bit of a conversation. The NCO then left the cell and he came back about five minutes later with a tray with a dish of meat and potatoes, a mug of coffee and a slab of bread. And the interesting thing was that during that period when the NCO was out of the cell the officer never asked me any questions about where I had come from, where I’d been shot down what was the rest of it. He was more interested in telling me he’d been educated at Oxford. He’d been educated at Oxford University. Went back to Germany in 1937. And, and that was it. And then they left me and they went up to Barry’s cell which was two up from where I was. And opened the door and the NCO said, ‘English?’ And Barry said, ‘Yes.’ And they just shut the door and left him. He got fed at lunchtime. I got fed again at lunchtime. But I was grateful for this substantial meal that I got in the morning. So we were there three days and the three days were just I suppose they were trying to organise what they would do with us. The second day I was there I was in the toilets and this English officer came in [pause] wearing, he was a flight lieutenant in uniform. But in his best blue. He didn’t have battle dress on. And I thought that’s suspicious and he said to me, ‘What squadron were you in?’ I said, ‘Mind your own bloody business,’ and walked out and left him. The interesting thing is that when we left there on the third day that officer didn’t come with us. There was just the two of us. So he was obviously a German. Where he’d got the uniform from I don’t know and how they’d managed to get a full dress uniform. Anyway, he didn’t appear and we got taken out and put into a covered in truck. And there was two bench seats, one on either side of the truck and we had two guards with us and we were taken about twenty miles up the road to another village. But the funny thing was, and I was telling a group I was speaking to last night that there were three or four civilians sitting across from us and there was a girl of about eighteen or nineteen. She had a bag at her feet. And she kept looking across at us and smiling. And then she spoke to the guards and I didn’t know what was going on but the guards obviously gave their assent. And she went in to the bag and pulled out two apples and gave us an apple each. Which I found rather strange that a German civilian was feeding prisoners of war. So we go up to this other little village and it was a place that had very very rustic and the prison was something that you’d see out of a western movie. They opened the door in the main street and there was two steps down and that was you in the cell and they shut the door. So the two of us were put in there and discovered that there were three others in there. There were two other Bomber Command aircrew and an American fighter pilot. And the next day the five of us got moved because we were heading to Dulag Luft at Frankfurt, and we actually got a train that took us up to Frankfurt. And then we got a tram car from the central station in Frankfurt which was a bit knocked about out to Dulag Luft which was on the south side of Frankfurt. And we were there. By this time Arnhem had taken place. And of course the place was loaded with airborne prisoners. And we were again, we were there three days and I was interrogated only once. I was taken into a room about this size with a big desk and an officer sitting behind it and behind him was a map of England with all the, all the bomber stations mapped on it. Including Mildenhall where I’d come from. And he asked me questions and I said, ‘Well, I can only tell you my number, rank and name and that’s all.’ ‘What squadron were you on?’ I said, ‘I can’t tell you that.’ ‘Well, you can, you know,’ he said, ‘Because the Army have regimental numbers and you have squadron numbers. So you can tell me your squadron number.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘Squadron number’s totally different from a regimental number,’ and I said, ‘I can’t tell you.’ So he didn’t press the point. He offered me a cigarette which I refused. I was desperate for one at that time but I refused it and I was taken back to my cell. And the next day we were moved into a large assembly room where they were gathering together prisoners that were going to be moved to a prison camp. And I met up with my bomb aimer and my wireless operator. They were both there and they’d been there all the time that we’d been on the loose. And they were told of course that we were dead because they couldn’t find us. That was, the presumption was we were dead. And the one that was missing was our rear gunner who was Isador Spagatner. He was an Austrian Jew. He’d actually been born in this country but his parents were Austrians who had left Austria and come over here to get out of this Hitler regime. And Spag had been born over here. But he was the most Jewish person I’ve ever seen in my life. And he always carried a revolver in his flying boot in case he got shot down because he reckoned he could take four or five and then keep one for himself. When he baled out his revolver fell out of his flying boot and he landed in Mannheim station without his revolver. And he was halfway up a pole with a rope around his neck when he was rescued by the railway police. And they immediately handed him over to the Luftwaffe. Being in Frankfurt I suppose it was easy. Being in Mannheim that was it was easy for them to do that. There was plenty of Luftwaffe people about. And he got whipped in, he went, he went up to Dulag Luft but he was only there for a couple of days and then he got whipped straight into in a prison camp and we met him eventually when we got to the prison camp. But we left there. We went, we went into, on to a train which was a corridor train and there was sixty each compartment and the guards at either end of the corridor. And we were each given a Red Cross parcel. Which of course had ample food in it but what we wanted. We were desperate for food at that time. We’d had food in Dulag Luft. In fact Dulag Luft had a bad reputation because the people that were serving us in it were Air Force. Ex-Air Force. Well they were still Air Force. Air Force personnel who’d either volunteered to stay on and serve the Germans and quite a number of them actually got prosecuted when they came back to this country. Anyway, we were going —
AM: Royal Air Force personnel?
GT: They were Royal Air Force personnel. Yeah.
AM: Oh I see.
GT: Aye.
AM: Right.
GT: Some of them got quite long prison sentences when they came back because they reckoned they were working for the Germans.
AM: Right.
GT: Anyway, we were five days in this train. Well, we travelled across Germany to get to Stalag Luft 7 which was near Bankau in Silesia. On the borders of Poland and Czechoslovakia. We were the furthest. One of two that were the furthest east camps in Germany. And we got there eventually. Got off the train at a place called Bankau which was about less than a mile, three quarters of a mile from the prison camp. Walked up the road to the prison camp. The prisoners who were already there knew that we were coming because they could see the train coming in. And one of the first person we saw was the rear gunner. He’d got there before us. The German procedure of course was that you, they took your identity disc off and you got a German identity disc. And you were given a number which related to the camp you were in. So my German identity disc had Stalag Luft 7 at the top and number eight hundred and seventy. I was eight hundred and seventieth in to the camp. The camp had only been opened up in June ’44 and it was still in a temporary stage of construction. The compound we were in was occupied by a series of wooden huts. Garden huts. Like big garden sheds. And six or seven men to a shed. And of course we got split up and put into one in here, one in there. We were in these sheds while in the next compound they were still building the new proper camp. Well, we’d been there two or three days and there were about seven or eight Army personnel there who’d been caught at the, mostly glider pilots who’d come down and been picked up and brought up there. And the Germans realised that they were Army personnel and they really should be put, they were mostly corporals and they should really be doing some work. So they arranged that they would have to go into this new compound and help put up the huts that were being erected in the, to develop the camp. So the seven or eight of them went in that day and we sort of, well we didn’t spend all day watching them. I didn’t certainly do that but quite a number were just down at the fence watching what was going on and they were getting the odd tool thrown across to them. Anyway, about 4 o’clock in the afternoon the seven came back in and came back into the camp. And then the next day they went out again but it wasn’t the same seven. It was seven of the Bomber Command personnel wearing the Army uniforms. And of course the German guards had changed and they didn’t know who they were. So they went into the camp and started working on the huts that, there was this hut that was nearest to the wire and they started working on it and actually what they were doing was dismantling most of the work that the Army boys had done the day before. And when they came out they came back in to the main compound. They slammed the door and the roof fell in. And that put an end to working. There was nobody else worked on these camps. Camp buildings. And the seven or eight Army personnel were moved away immediately. Almost immediately. And they would go to an Army camp and probably be working because the Army boys were, were made to work.
AM: Yeah.
GT: I don’t know what happened to any of the Army sergeants and above but any, all aircrew didn’t work. You didn’t. There was no work to be done at all because it was mayhem if aircrew got into it at all. As witnessed by what happened to the roof of this building. So eventually we got moved in the beginning of October. We got moved in to the new compound. Now, the new compound consisted of eight barrack blocks. And each barrack block consisted of fourteen rooms, a centre corridor and seven rooms on either side. And each room accommodated twelve prisoners in double bunks. And it was fresh. It was clean. It was. It was, there was a stove in the room and there was also two latrine blocks. One on either side in between the barrack blocks. There was a cook house and storage room. And there was another room which was a recreational room and we called it a little theatre because there was a stage in it. And it was used quite a bit. So we were in there and the sixteen foot high barbed wire fence that was around us, double fence and inside that there was about four, four or five feet inside that there was a trip wire which was about that height off the ground and you didn’t cross that wire. You crossed it at your peril. If you crossed it you got every chance of being shot by one of the guards in the guard towers that were surrounding the camp. In fact, one chap who obviously had gone a bit [pause] lost the place here. He actually went across the wire and tried to climb the fence to get out of the camp and he was shot by one of the guards. And there was a second one shot. A Canadian sergeant who was in the block next to ours. We were in block number one and there was an air raid had gone. And you weren’t allowed out if an air raid was on. You just stayed in your [pause] The all clear went and he left his billet to go to the cookhouse to collect the rations for their lunch and he was shot by one of the guards in the tower. The problem was the air raid all clear had not gone in the camp. It had gone down in Bankau. In the village three quarters of a mile away and it had been heard there and he thought it was the camp all clear. And that’s why he went out and he was killed as well. That guard disappeared from the camp. He was never seen again. He probably ended up on the Russian front. I don’t know what happened to him but he was away. And that, that was, that was basically it. And then of course we we occupied our time in the usual ways. We had the compound where we, in the centre was was laid out like a football pitch. It could be used as a football pitch. I played rugby on it. I’d played rugby at school. And I played rugby in the RAF on the squadron when I was on it. Now, the bomb aimer he was a Welshman. He was a very keen rugby player and we played quite a few games there. And there was football as well. And of course you walked the compound around to get exercise. And there was a library stocked by the International Red Cross. And there was two or three of the lads from one of the other billets had actually made a Monopoly set by hand. They’d hand-made this monopoly set which, and you could borrow it. A room would get it for a night and it would go around. Played a lot of Bridge. The Bridge situation. The last time I played bridge in my life was actually in the prison camp. But it was, it was, well, well organised and well run. And —
AM: What were the theatre shows?
GT: Well, there was there was two, two orchestras in the camp.
AM: Right.
GT: There was a semi-classical orchestra. Violins mainly. And there was a piano accordion orchestra which was run by a Canadian sergeant who had organised that he was a very very good piano accordion and he had about, there was about six accordions in the —
AM: Where did they get they get the instruments from?
GT: Well, the International Red Cross.
AM: Right.
GT: Supplied them and the, we had concerts. And the first concert was opened up in the beginning of November and we had a concert at least once a week. We also had film shows. We had two film shows. One, the Germans actually operated the cinema equipment and the first one we went to they ran, there were three reels and they ran one, three and two. So it was a bit jumbled up. You didn’t know. You saw the end before you saw the middle part. And then at, at Christmas, just before Christmas they had a big do with both orchestras playing and it was, it ran for two nights. We were, I was there the second night and apparently the first night, at the end of the concert the POWs had stood up and sang the national anthem. The night I was there the commandant who was a guest, the German commandant was a guest, he stood up and said, ‘You will not sing your national anthem.’ And the senior British officer who was a chap, Peter Thomson, an Australian he stood up and said, ‘Land of Hope and Glory boys.’ And we sang it three times. Much to the consternation of the Germans who couldn’t get out of the place. And they opened, they opened the windows and they said it was actually heard down in Bankau three quarters of a mile away. Because the whole, the whole camp took it up at that time and by this time there was fifteen hundred in the camp. And if you can imagine fifteen hundred voices singing Land of Hope and Glory. So that was it. And then we, there was a [pause] my rear gunner was not in a, we were in block number one and my rear gunner was in block number seven. And it was, he was, the room he was in was mainly Canadians and they applied to the International Red Cross for skates. And they got six pairs of skates but they couldn’t use them. So they applied to the German authority for permission to build an ice rink. And it was duly granted and they started building this ice rink between two of their, two of their accommodation blocks. And they were piling up the sand to create a sort of a well that they could flood. And of course it was so blooming cold at that time it froze over without any bother. What the Germans didn’t realise was that the sand that was being built up also contained sand that was coming out a tunnel that was being dug from one of the barrack blocks. About two weeks after they started on it the actual, the Germans found the tunnel and the thing got scrapped. But we were probably the only camp in Germany I would think, the only POW camp in Germany that actually had an ice rink. And the tunnel would never have been used because by this time through the International Red Cross the message had come out that there was to be no more escapes after the Great Escape took place. And they didn’t want any more situations of that nature. So there were no escapes at all. There was two or three guys did try to escape. One tried to escape under a pile of laundry that went out. And he was found just before he got out of the camp. And another chap tried to get out underneath a truck. And he was found and he was brought back in. There was a block of cells. Six prison cells. You got four days solitary if you were caught doing anything that you shouldn’t have been doing. Anyway, that was it up until the time when it got to January ‘45 and of course the Russians were pushing in from the east. They were coming. Moving towards the west.
AM: Do you want a wee break?
GT: Aye.
AM: Aye.
[recording paused]
AM: George, just before we finish the bit about the camp and move on to the Long March was there any way that prisoners could hear what was going on in the outside world or in the war?
GT: Yeah. I omitted to mention that at Stalag Luft 7 there were about three hundred and eighty odd prisoners moved in from other camps.
AM: Right.
GT: While Stalag Luft 7 was being built they were in temporary camps. Mostly in Army camps. And then they got moved in and a group of them who were moved in actually brought with them their own radio. But one of the, one or two of the wireless operators had managed to build a radio. And the Germans knew that they had this radio but they never could find it. Now, they were moved from an Army camp into Stalag Luft 7 and they obviously were searched when they came into the camp. Never found the radio. When we got moved from the temporary compound in to the main compound again we were all searched before we went in. Our baggage was searched, we were searched and yet within two days of getting in that radio was up and working. And they listened in the BBC two or three times a week. They took the message down in shorthand and then had it typed up and there was a group of POWs who went around the blocks and read this out to the residents in each block and then destroyed the paper. And, and that was it. So we, we got news about three or four times a week from the BBC and we probably knew more about what was going on the war than the Germans actually did.
AM: Really. Amazing.
GT: Yeah. And they still never found that radio. The other thing I should have mentioned was that the Gestapo visited the camp about once a month and the German officers in charge of the camp were always concerned about this. And they used to give us about two days notice of when the Gestapo were coming so that anything that we didn’t want to be found could be hidden away in time. And particularly this radio for example. And the Gestapo would come in, spend the day in the camp. Go through the camp. Search the rooms. They still never found that radio. And as I say the Germans were good enough always to alert us to the fact that the Gestapo were coming because they feared them more than, probably more than we did. If they’d found anything that was illegal they would have been for the chop as well. They’d have been demoted or whatever or sent to the Russian front or wherever they sent these boys to. So that was it.
AM: So, perhaps you could tell us a little about the end of the time in the camp and then move on to the, what’s become known since as the Long March.
GT: Yeah. Well, the, the Long March was by January ’45 it was known that the Russians were pushing on. Moving further west and the Germans had made up their mind that they were going to evacuate the camps and move all the prisoners to the west as well. I never found the rationale behind that because to some extent they could have left us and let the Russians get hold of us. Anyway, by about the middle of January we were alerted to the fact that we might have to move soon. And in fact on the 17th of January we were given one hour’s notice to move. It happened, it didn’t take place. It didn’t take place until the 19th. That was two days we had spare. Some of the boys made sledges out of old bed boards so that they could tow their gear with them. I didn’t want to be bothered with that. The chap I shared the accommodation with in the bunks he didn’t want to be bother with that either. I’d got some spare material. A canvassy type of material. I made a rucksack which I could just put on my back and carry whatever I wanted in it and that was fine. But we eventually moved off from the camp on the 19th of January at 3 o’clock in the morning. And the, it was blowing a blizzard. It was snowing like nothing I’d ever seen before because that part of the country is well for snowdrifts. And we left, as I say about 3 o’clock in the morning and we did sixteen miles before we stopped. We had a couple of breaks on the way for about ten minutes. Fifteen minutes. And then we carried on walking. It was difficult to see where you were going and of course there were guards on either side of us in any event. There was fifteen hundred of us on the road, stringing along. And we had, we’d saved some of our Red Cross parcel material which was pretty sparse anyway. We didn’t get Red Cross parcels every week now. We’d saved some of the material from the Red Cross parcels that we could take with us which is just as well because over the three weeks we were on the road marching we got very little food given us. So we moved on. We did the sixteen miles and it was the middle of the next afternoon before we stopped. And we stopped at a school room, a deserted school room and we slept on the floorboards in the school. There was no furniture in the school room but obviously it had been abandoned and we slept there. And we got some small rations in the morning. And then we moved on again from there and we did another fourteen miles. I think the idea was to get us across the River Oder so that they could blow the bridges and stop the Russians from getting across. It didn’t stop the Russians anyway. But the third day we actually got across the Oder and we then spent that other night in a farm. Barns. A working farm but we were in the barns. I buddied up with a chap that — a fellow, Geoff Lee. A New Zealand pilot who was in Coastal Command. And the interesting thing was that I’d actually seen him being shot down a fortnight before we were shot down on the newsreel in the station cinema. It was, they showed in the newsreel a piece that was a Coastal Command attack on on German shipping going up the German coastline. And he was, he was flying a Bristol Beaufort and he and his navigator made this attack and they got, they got struck and he more or less went straight in. And Bristol Beauforts were not known for their floatability. But it stayed afloat long enough for him to get out. And the navigator sat behind him in a separate compartment and his only way out was through a hatch in the bottom. And Geoff, having got out then went down to see if he could find where the navigator had gone, and never saw. Never found. The door was open but the navigator had gone. Never saw him again. And of course he got picked up by the Germans within, they were only about a half a mile off the shore. And when I arrived in Stalag Luft 7 at the temporary camp he was the fellow I was sleeping next to. Geoff Lee. And we just kept together after that. But I went out to New Zealand and spent some time with Geoff and his wife after the war with my wife. So we didn’t do too bad. Anyway we had these, these days of walking and days of resting. We’d only one two day pause when we actually stopped and didn’t move on for two days. And we got some very sparse rations. The [pause] Geoff had been a farmer. He, he didn’t have a farm of his own but he worked on a farm in New Zealand and one of the nights that we spent in this farm building he said to me, ‘Let’s go and sleep with the cattle.’ So we went into the section where the cattle was and bedded down with them because it was warm. And it was fine. And he also went scouting around and he got some molasses which was of course fed to the cattle. And we just ate some of the molasses as well. Gave us something to put in to our stomachs. And then we moved on from there and we were three weeks on the road. They kept promising us that we’d get transport but we never really got it. The third day we were out in the camp there were about sixty of the POWs were so desperately ill that they had to, they put them into what had been a civilian hospital and left them there. And they would actually have been overrun by the Russians in time. And the rest of us just beavered on. They had one horse and a cart that could pick up folk that couldn’t walk any further but mostly carried on. I think probably at the end of the day we lost about eighty out of the fifteen hundred who were left behind. I think one or two of them actually died. I’ve no record of that but I read an article at one time that said that forty or fifty had died but I had no knowledge of that at all. I never heard any message to that effect. Anyway, we eventually got on to a place called Goldberg and we were there for a couple of nights. And then they organised a train from there. And of course it was a cattle train. Cattle waggons. Fifty five men to a cattle wagon. And we got on to this train and we were taken from there going further west over three days. We stopped at night and they would let us out at night for a spell. Then back into the trucks and lock us up again. But we eventually got to a place about thirty miles southeast of Berlin. And that was a village called Luckenwalde and there was a prison camp there and we were stuck in it. Now compared with the one we left at Stalag Luft 7 which was to some extents palatial Luckenwalde was the pits. It was an ex-Army camp occupied by the French and the French by the time we got there there was about three thousand British and American POWs who’d been evacuated from their camps and had walked west. We got there and we were in huts that occupied just about three hundred to a hut in three tier beds in blocks of nine. And it was the filthiest place I’ve ever been in. Within twenty four hours we were all covered in body lice. Every one of us. And we never got rid of them until we got back to this country. We’d been there about, probably about three weeks when half way through the third week when our block with three hundred in it were told we were being moved again. And we were taken down to the station and loaded on to cattle trucks once more. And we stayed there for three days. They couldn’t move us because [pause] we didn’t know what was happening. We had no idea what was going on. And most of the guards that were there were German Dad’s Army guards. And there was wire fencing around the part where the cattle trucks were and occasionally the villagers would come down and stare at us, you know. Look through the fence. See what we were like. Were we human? Whether we had two heads. And some of the prisoners would do a deal when the civilians that come down. And you got two tins of coffee in your Red Cross parcels and they were, they each contained two ounces of concentrated coffee. You used to be able to get them in this country.
AM: Camp coffee.
GT: That’s right. It was, it was crystallised coffee.
AM: Right.
GT: Anyway, they used to trade these for eggs. A tin of coffee would get you half a dozen eggs and that was fine. The only problem was that the civilians when they got back opened up their coffee it wasn’t coffee that was in it at all. It was sand. And they couldn’t come back and complain.
AM: No.
GT: There was also one guy. An Australian pilot. We were allowed out of the vans most of the day and he, he got chatting with one of the guards who was a sort of German Dad’s Army type and asked to see his rifle. And the guy handed it over. And the Australian fella had a look at the rifle. Aye, it’s fine. Handed it back to him. He kept the bolt. The bolt was, the rifle was useless without the bolt but the guard didn’t know he had no bolt in his rifle when he got It back. Anyway, we were there for three days and got moved back to the camp. And there’s a book which I’ve got a copy of, it’s called, ‘Footprints on the Sand of Time.’ And it gives you a bit about each camp in it and also lists all Bomber Command prisoners of war from day one right through to the end. And it tells you in this article that this group that were being moved from Luckenwalde were intended to go to be taken to Berlin to be held as hostages. They couldn’t get us there because the Americans had bombed the railway line and there was no way they could get us there so we got back up to the camp. But the camp was a pretty filthy place as I say. When we got there originally we were desperate for food and the, we discovered that the French prisoners that were in the camp had quite a stack of Red Cross parcels and they wouldn’t hand any of them over. And a senior British officer had words with the German command and eventually the Germans went in and took the parcels and handed them over to us and left the French short of parcels. So we got some food. I’ve got a note here of what we actually got to eat on the way. The rations that we were given on the three week march consisted of, from the Germans three loaves of bread, four packets of crack bake. Crack bake was something similar to Ryvita.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: A packet of small biscuits, four plates of porridge and a cup of barley. And that was all we got in the three weeks apart from what we could scrounge ourselves. So we were there until, again the Russians were continuing to move to the west. And it was known that the Russians would eventually reach Luckenwalde as well. And they did reach us. Around about April ’45 they came into the camp. We woke up one morning and the guards had gone. We were left on our own and that same morning the Russians came into the camp. And the next day they brought in two vans loaded with rifles to hand out to us. And we told them to go and get lost. We weren’t going to start fighting with the Russians. Alongside the Russians. And that same day an American press photographer in a jeep with a driver had got lost and they found the camp. And they decided that they would hightail it back to the American lines. The Elbe, just southeast of Berlin. Apparently the arrangement was that the Americans would move up to the west bank of the Elbe and the Russians would move up to the east bank and this newspaper reporter hightailed it back to the Americans. And the next day the Americans sent a fleet of trucks to take away the sick and the wounded and the Russians opened fire on them. Drove them back. Kept us there for a month. Didn’t supply any rations. They gave the camp two horses and a cart and we had to go and find our own food. There was a group set up that did that around the farmyards and got whatever they could. And apparently the Russians wanted to have an exchange of prisoners. The Russian prisoners were very far and few between and there was three thousand of us British and American. And apparently the Americans of course did not have three thousand prisoners. So my understanding is that they actually crossed the Elbe and took sufficient prisoners to make up three thousand. And then said to the Russians, ‘We can do an exchange. We’ve got three thousand prisoners.’ And after a month in the prison camp with the Russians there some lads tried to get out of the camp and make their own way. But some were successful and some weren’t. After a month we were loaded on to trucks and the Russians drove us up to the Elbe and we walked across one pontoon bridge and the Russian prisoners walked across another pontoon bridge about fifty yards down river. And I don’t think any of these Russian prisoners lasted more than a month.
AM: No.
GT: They were sent to gulags or shot but they weren’t, the Russians didn’t believe in the International Red Cross. They didn’t supply food to their own prisoners or anything of that sort.
AM: No.
GT: That was it. So we were taken then. The Americans then took us to a place called [unclear] which was a small, well a reasonable size town but outside the town there was a Luftwaffe fighter base. And we were there for three days having the option of eating white bread for a change. And we were well fed and then after three days they flew us in a fleet of Dakotas down to Brussels. Our aircraft was the last, probably the last one to land because they, they either didn’t have a navigator or the navigator didn’t know where he was going. We landed at the airport and we taxied to the end of the runway and the pilot said — there was only twelve of us in the plane. We were, as I say the last one out. Most of the planes were carrying twenty or twenty four. We got out and we were standing at the end of the runway wondering what to do. We could see at the far end where we should have been. There had been a band there to welcome us in and it had packed up and gone away. And eventually an RAF Regiment sergeant arrived on a bike and said, ‘What are you all doing here? You shouldn’t be here. You should be up at the other end. Get moving and get up there.’ So we told him what to do with his bike and offered to help him do it. And he decided that prudence was the better option and he just disappeared. There was a Lockheed Hudson parked at the end of the runway and the pilot came across to me and he said ‘What are you lot?’ And I said, ‘We’re prisoners of war that are trying to get home.’ He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘What squadron were you on?’ I said, ‘15.’ He said, ‘So was I at one time.’ he said, ‘I was on 15 for a while,’ he said, ‘Get aboard.’ So he loaded the twelve of us in to this Lockheed Hudson and took off. And he called up Brussels Airport and said, ‘I’ve got prisoners of war. Where do I take them to?’ He was told to land immediately and bring them back. The other POWs that were, that had landed in the other Dakotas were kept there. They were about three days in Brussels before they got flown home. So this pilot just switched off and carried on flying over to England and then called up and said, ‘I’ve got prisoners of war aboard. Where do I take them to?’ And he was directed to Westcott in Buckinghamshire which had been our OTU. And we landed there and they were expecting about four or five hundred coming in and of course there were only the twelve of us. And we were taken into this big hangar and it was set out, two big long tables set out for meals. Anyway, they did give us a meal. They deloused us first of all. That was the important thing. And then we went in and had a meal. Then the two doctors came in and checked us out. And one of them said to me, he said, ‘I know you,’ he said, ‘You stay in Giffnock.’ I said, ‘Well, my parents stay in Giffnock and they’re still there.’ He said, ‘I used to see you going to school.’ He said, ‘Who was your doctor?’ I said, ‘Dr Armstrong.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That was a different practice.’ Armstrong actually operated on his own. He was in Eastwoodmains Road and the old Eastwood School which had just opened off Eastwoodmains Road. And it’s about three miles away from where it is now. His practice was up there and he apparently used to see me. And how he recognised me I don’t know because I hadn’t had a hair cut in about two months. And anyway he said, ‘Well, we’re not going to keep you here. We’re going to give you, take the bus into London and you’ll get a train up to RAF Cosford in Shropshire.’ So we got taken into London. We got ten shillings each and we got taken into London and we had about an hour and a half to wait for our train. So we all disappeared into the bar. And after two and a half pints I was getting a bit puggled. And I obviously wasn’t thinking straight because in the bar there must have been a loo. But I left the bar and went out into the station to look for a loo. And of course I was in my decrepit battle dress. I didn’t wear a regulation shirt. I was wearing a navy blue towelling shirt which I always flew in and I got stopped by two military police. Army military police. ‘Where are you from?’ I said, ‘Well, from Germany. Ex- prisoner of war.’ And by this time two or three civilians had gathered around to hear the conversation and three or four of the lads in the bar had missed me and they came out to look for me. So when the, the Army police saw the others coming out they just disappeared. They thought let’s get out of here. So we got taken back in to the bar by some of the civilians that had gathered around us and bought more drinks. Eventually got on the train up to RAF Cosford. Probably about 8 o’clock at night. We had a, a meal and our uniforms were taken away from us and we were measured for new uniforms. And we had a medical and then went to bed in Nissen huts. And the next morning we got up and had breakfast and collected our new uniforms which were brand new. Correct badges up on them. Correct stripes on them as well. Even to the point where one chap, I can’t remember his surname but it might have been Gibson but anyway his first, his initials were VC. Victor. I don’t know what the C was for. But he was registered as Gibson, VC. And he got his new uniform with a VC on it. Which of course he protested about and had it taken off. And at lunchtime that day I was on my way home. We were only there overnight and sent on my way home and got home later that day. And spent, spent about two or three months in between times going up and down to RAF Cosford for checks. And then eventually I got a message to report to London. To a hotel in London. Went down there. This was around about the end of October, early November and I met up with my flight engineer at this hotel occupied by Army personnel. And I said to this Army guy at the door when I went in, I said, ‘What sort of a place is this?’ He said, ‘It’s for overseas postings.’ I said, ‘You must be joking,’ I said, ‘I’m not going to an overseas posting.’ He said, ‘You’re two floors up.’ So we went up and all they wanted to know from both of us was had we got any assistance when we were on the loose in Germany. The eight days we were. And we said no. ‘Well, that’s fine. Thank you very much. Off you go.’ They didn’t need to bother to call us down to London to find out that information. And then back home. And eventually I got another posting to go down to a refresher course. And went down to this refresher course and met up with my bomb aimer. And we were both in this so-called refresher course. It lasted a month and it was a total waste of time. And at the end of the month John of course he had joined the Air Force in 1937 as a boy apprentice. Trained as an engineer and then volunteered for aircrew. And the flight engineer was the same. He was the same. So the two of them actually stayed on. John still had three years to do of his service. So he stayed on and I was taken in to, the day that John left I was pulled into a remustering room. I saw this flight lieutenant and he said, ‘Well, you realise Thomson that you won’t be flying again.’ And he said, ‘You’ll have to remuster. I’m supposed to remuster you as a clerk general duties.’ I said, ‘Over my dead body I’ll remuster as a clerk,’ I said, ‘I joined the Air Force to fly. Well, you can’t get out because you’ve only been a prisoner for nine and a half months and you’ve got to be a prisoner for twelve months you got an immediate discharge when you came back. Anything less than nine and a half months you still had to do your time. So I refused to accept his remustering and I was pulled into the, the squadron leader the next day who was in charge of the remustering group. And his opening remarks were, ‘You’re making a bit of a nuisance of yourself, Thomson.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘I’m not.’ I said, ‘The guy I saw yesterday was, he wanted to remuster me as a clerk. I didn’t join the air force to be a clerk.’ So he went through the usual gammit, ‘You’ve only been a prisoner for nine and a half months and you can’t.’ He was looking at my file and he said, ‘Oh I see you stayed in Giffnock.’ I said ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘My parents live in Giffnock and I stay there.’ He said, ‘Do you know a family called Whitelaw?’ I said, ‘Yes. They stay in Braidholm Road. And there’s two girls in the family and one was at school with me.’ He said, ‘Oh. They’re my nieces.’ And he looked at me and he said, ‘What is it that you want?’ I said, ‘Out.’ And he signed my papers and I got out. It took me three weeks to get out mind you but my wireless operator did another six months before he got out and he was driving trucks around England. He was re-mustered as a driver. And Spag, the rear gunner he got out because he’d been medically unwell. He was older. He was actually thirty nine when he was flying with us. So he really shouldn’t have been there at all. And that was, that was it.
AM: What did you do after the war?
GT: I went back to the bank. I was in the bank before I went into the air force. Went back to the bank. The interesting thing was I think because of the Air Force training I got it was concentrated training. I mean we did, my initial training was at Scarborough. I had twelve weeks in Scarborough. And then I went to Bridgnorth to Elementary Air Navigation School which was a ground school and spent nine weeks there at Elementary Air Navigation. And then went from there to Northern Ireland for flying training. And eventually went back down to, posted from there to Westcott, Bucks for Operational Training Unit where we crewed up. And that was it then. Went from there down to Shrops, to Suffolk and went to various bases we were in. We were on Wellingtons when we were at Westcott and then we went down there and went onto Stirlings. And we spent quite a bit of time on Stirlings and then went converted on to Lancasters before we went to the Squadron.
AM: Right. Just —
GT: There was a body operating in Wales called Hero’s Return. And I heard about it through the Aircrew Association. And I phoned this Hero’s Return place in Wales and I said, ‘I would like to go and visit my pilot’s grave.’ I knew where it was. It was in a place called Dürnbach. Forty miles south of Munich. And he said, they said, ‘Yeah. Well you can do that. We can finance that for you.’ And I said, ‘My wife would like to go too.’ ‘That’s alright. We can do it for both of you.’ So I phoned my bomb aimer who was in South Wales and I told him and he got in touch with them. And it was arranged that the three of us would go and they paid seventy percent of our costs and we, one of the problems at Dürnbach, outside Munich was that the, it was difficult to get accommodation with a large lake. I think it was called Titisee but I’m not very sure about that.
AM: It is Titisee. Yeah.
GT: It is Titisee isn’t it.
AM: Yeah.
GT: And my travel agent in Helensburgh at that time eventually got us accommodation which she got three places and we had to pick one. And we picked the one that we thought was best located. It was halfway up a mountain because it was a ski resort. And Titisee is used by the people from Munich as a weekend resort and it’s not a place for English tourists. So we got there eventually and we had a mix up getting there because the original plan was the travel agent told us how to get there. Fly to Munich Airport. Take the train in from the airport to Munich. It’s about an hour in the train in to Munich and get a train from there down to Titisee. So we, John, but John had, his legs were not very good and he had arranged that he would get transport when he was in the airports. So when we got to Munich there was a chap waiting for him with a wheelchair.
AM: Wheelchair.
GT: And we were walking along and this this chap said, he was German of course, he said, ‘Where are you going to?’ And we said, ‘We’re going to Munich. We were going to get the train to Munich. He said, ‘You don’t want to get a train to Munich,’ he said, ‘You want to get a bus.’ He said, ‘I’ll take you to the bus. And it’ll take you to Munich quicker than the train will.’ So we got on the bus and I was paying for the three of us and the driver said to me, ‘Where are you going to?’ And I said, ‘Well, we’re going to Munich and then we’re getting a train down to Titisee.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You don’t want to get the train.’ He said, ‘There’s a bus that’ll come in behind me at Munich. Get on the bus and that’ll take you down there.’ So we did that. And we got down. The only trouble was it went down the wrong side of Titisee and it went right around the whole lake before we got to our destination. Anyway, we got a taxi up to the hotel. We got in to the hotel no bother at all and we were getting the middle of the afternoon. And after we were in our rooms I went down to reception. There was a lad at reception he was probably in his mid-30s and I said to him, ‘What time’s dinner?’ He said, ‘We don’t do dinner.’ They had two dining rooms but they didn’t do dinner. I said, ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘Well, don’t worry,’ he said, ‘I will take you down to the village.’ He said, ‘There’s plenty of pubs in the village. If you went to the pub, have a drink, have a meal, have a drink and get a taxi back up.’ ‘Fine. We’ll do that.’ So we did that and we came back up after 10 o’clock at night when we got back up and he was still in reception. And when John went to his bed I said to my wife, I said, ‘I’m going to go down and have a word with this guy.’ So I went down. I said to him, ‘I should tell you why we’re here. We’re here because I want to visit my pilot’s grave,’ The mid-upper gunner was buried beside him as well, I said, ‘At Dürnbach.’ I said, ‘I know it’s about eight or nine miles from here but,’ I said, ‘How do I go? Do I take a train or do I get a bus or do I take a taxi?’ He said, ‘No. Don’t do any of these things. I will take you.’ So the next day he took a day off and he took us there just after lunch. And he stayed with, he came into the British War Cemetery. He came into the cemetery with us and he stayed with us and then he brought us back up to the hotel. And on the way back up he said, ‘Would you like a meal tonight?’ And John said, ‘I thought you didn’t do meals.’ He said, ‘I can do a cold meal.’ So John said, ‘That’ll be fine. A cold meal would suit me.’ So we all agreed to have a cold meal. So he said, ‘Come down at half past seven. And go into the smaller dining room.’ So we came down at half past seven and went in to the smaller dining room. And there was a big round table set out with plates of various cold meats on it, a bottle of wine, coffee cups and such like. And then this chap came in with a bottle of schnapps and we had a glass of schnapps each before we had our meal. We had the meal and we got a sweet after it and he came back in and gave us another glass of schnapps, and that was it. And he didn’t charge us for the meal. We paid our normal bill for the accommodation and that but that was all. And it couldn’t have been better. So I came back and I told the travel agents when I got back that, ‘Don’t send anybody to Titisee by train. Tell them to go by bus.’
AM: I think, George that’s a remarkable way to finish a remarkable.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Story. Thank you.
GT: My pleasure.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with George Thomson. Two
Creator
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Alastair Montgomery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-03
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AThomsonGB171103
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:27:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
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George Thomson was a navigator with 15 Squadron based at RAF Mildenhall. On their nineteenth operation they came under attack and had to bale out of the aircraft. The pilot and mid-upper gunner both died. When he landed he saw a parachute stuck in a tree at the other end of the field and discovered it belonged to his flight engineer. Together they evaded capture for eight days before they were discovered. He spent the rest of the war as a prisoner of war in Stalag Luft 7 before embarking on the Long March.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Suffolk
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Munich
Germany--Oberursel
Germany--Rastatt
Poland--Tychowo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
15 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Dulag Luft
entertainment
evading
final resting place
lynching
navigator
prisoner of war
RAF Mildenhall
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/469/8352/ABaronC160321.1.mp3
385c27519d9e75f7bcf44a0808ce8da5
Dublin Core
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Title
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Baron, Charles
C Baron
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Baron, C
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Charles Baron.
Date
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2016-03-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Anna Hoyles, the interviewee is Charles Baron. The interview is taking place at Mr. Baron’s home in Louth Lincolnshire on 23rd March 2016.
CB: Here we are I volunteered for aircrew 1940, you can have a copy of this [laughs], I think the calling up system was somewhat chaotic at that time because it took the authorities another eight months to send me my calling up papers, the instructions were that I report RAF Uxbridge where I was issued with a uniform for an AC2/UT/AIROBS i.e. that means an Aircraft Hand Second Class under training for Air Observer close brackets, I volunteered for pilot but my eyesight test discovered that I was partly colour blind and that made it no good so err, when ‘cos I oh yes yes well then I’ll read this and then you’ll see what’s what’s useful and what isn’t, umm err, I volunteered for pilot but my eyesight was partly colour blind I remember that I had whilst I was at Uxbridge I was posted to Uxbridge and that’s where I got this funny title, which consisted of roast beef stroke yorkshire pudding followed by plum duff I remember being impressed and pleased that I had volunteered for aircrew as a meal that size and nature had not been at our table for years. I was then given a train ticket to Blackpool and billeted with several others in a seaside boarding house there were about ten of us recruits billeted there and most of them were friendly except well yes that’s nothing, I spent six weeks marching up and down the promenade after six weeks parading at Blackpool we were posted to a receiving wing based at Stratford on Avon I was here for two or three weeks and wasted my time as it was merely a holding post pending a vacancy for proper training at an Initial Training Wing ITW, this was well worth the wait as early in 1941 I was posted to Number Two ITW Initial Training Wing and billeted in Emmanuel College Cambridge I shared students quarters with two other navigation trainees, tell you I had it soft, the courses were for me actual luxury as I realised quite soon that I had what I had missed by not going to university for further education [laughs]. There was some forty of us billeted in different colleges we livened the local populace by marching everywhere at one hundred and forty paces per minute I remember our first drill lesson [laughs] ? standing for attention and being lectured by an instructor who was an obvious Londoner, I remember very ‘stinctly his first instruction relating to smart appearance which was, [how do I read this] ‘now tomorra I want all your buttorns cleaned’ [imitating a London accent] that was exactly what he said [laughs]. At Cambridge we were initiated in the mysteries of air navigation, air recognition, meteorology, morse and similar too many to remember in detail, the course lasted eight weeks I passed the course and was promoted to LAC Leading Aircraft Hand with my daily pay increased from two and six a day to five and six a day [emphasis]. We were then posted to Sealand near Chester for onward transmission by sea to Florida where where we due to spend six months being thoroughly trained in air navigation by Pan Am pretty good hey, on arrival at our embarkation port Avonmouth four of us found that our papers had not been received and the ship left without us [laughs], we were returned to Cambridge and you can imagine our feelings, this time we were billeted at Downing College where we cooled our heels for some weeks before I was called before the CO and asked if I would be prepared to volunteer for a highly secretive and dangerous training [whispers], as I would have been prepared to go anywhere to serve and play some useful part in the war I said ‘yes please sir’, after a day or so I was sent to Air Ministry where I was given some very odd looking diagrams to study and provide answers to various questions passed out and satisfactorily shortly after my return to Downing College I was posted to Prestwick. At Prestwick I was introduced to air born radar instead of six months full training by Pan Am I received six hours air training in a Blenheim 3 which was a twin engined bomber which had been furnished with a radar set for me to study during which time my training consisted of using the radar to instruct my pilot to follow and close with a target aircraft at night until he could actually see the target I was using a radar set to do this you see and I had to understand how to operate it the object would have then been to be able to shoot down the target I was passed [coughs] above average and then promoted to Sergeant Navigator Radar with a daily pay increase from five and six to, you’ll never guess, thirteen shillings a day [whispers] this equated to four pound eleven a week and was more than I had ever earned as a civilian [laughs], had I been passed average I would have been posted to an operational training unit for further training before being posted to an operational squadron I was bypassed because I passed above average, I think I told you, I was sent to Canadian Operational Squadron at Accrington Northampton er Northumberland where I spent several interesting months, our operation area was the North East included such targets as Newcastle and Durham so I expected a good deal of activity however compared to Southern England it was [?] and disappointing, I teamed with a Canadian pilot Sergeant Hughie Gorr we became very close friends and after the war we exchanged home visits, he and I stayed together as a crew for about three years. He proved his worth as a talented pilot on many occasions but one in particular sticks in my memory that happened quite soon after I was posted to Accrington the squadron oh yes this was Number 406 Canadian Squadron also maintained, you can have a copy of this photocopy of this no problem at all, also maintained a detachment at Scorton near Catterick in Yorkshire where all crews spent about one week in four, on one occasion we were on patrol at night there when one of our two engines failed and Hughie said ‘I think I can make it on one engine if you give me a course for base’ I duly did so but very shortly afterward the other engine failed [laughs] and Hughie said ‘bail out’ I opened the rear hatch and was halfway out of the aircraft with my parachute on and Hughie said ‘ooh I can see base and I am going to make a glide landing’ bearing in mind that this was dead of night his confidence was a tribute to his piloting skill when we less than a thousand feet and too late to bail out he said ‘oh lord it’s a dummy’ in other words a dummy was a false runway close to the proper runway and built to mislead enemy activity, I reluctantly climbed back in the aircraft er closed the rear hatch and settled down to await my fate it was then considered to control the engineless aircraft but kept the wheels up and made a crash landing in a field roughly fifty yards from a small wood I then climbed out [whispers] with a bruised knee, and that was that was quite an experience, er as enemy air activity was very low the squadron was posted for a year to Scotland not far from Prestwick where I had received my radar baptism this posting was also not terribly exciting and when volunteers were called to venture overseas to join the Middle East battle Hughie and I were happy to do so we were then posted to Wilmslow in Cheshire to be fully kitted out for overseas duties and then to Avonmouth where we boarded a steamer bound for Freetown in Sierra Leone our ship was part of a convoy on arrival at Freetown after surviving a few submarine scares we then boarded another steamer bound for Takoradi in the Gold Coast what was called the Gold Coast er that’s now Ghana of course, which went without convoy protection but fortunately we had no attacks from enemy submarines, we learnt while on board to Takoradi that all the passengers were aircrew and that the RAF had built an airport there for the purpose of ferrying fighter aircraft to the war zone in the Middle East, the aircraft had been shipped separately, this is very interesting, in knock down form for assembly in Takoradi the reason for this was that the Germans controlled the Mediterranean and it was considered to wasteful to fly direct aircrew had to wait a few days while the aircraft arrived and were assembled and then flown in convoy to the war zone across Africa, the route from Takoradi to the base in Egypt called Abu Suweir was a long one and we had to stop several times for refuelling and this meant overnight stops at Maiduguri Nigeria, El Fasher in Darfur, Wadi Halfa on the Southern Nile and finally up the Nile to Abu Suweir that’s how we got to Egypt. Unfortunately when we landed at Takoradi I was bitten [laughs] I was bitten by an annapolis mosquito and spent the next three weeks in a military hospital recovering from malaria this meant that Hughie and I missed our convoy and so our Beaufighter was three weeks late we were further delayed because our plane suffered a magneto drop and we had to leave our convoy for an emergency landing in another strip at El Geneina this meant we had to wait another week or so while a replacement engine was flown out to us finally we flew on our own the rest of the way by the time we arrived in Egypt, Montgomery had won the battle of El Alamein, it’s the story of my life [turning pages over] experience. We stayed in Egypt with 89 Squadron for about six months 89 was commanded by a well known commander called Wing Commander Stainforth he was a magnificent pilot and 89th Squadron he was given what was about three times the size of a normal RAF Squadron having a detachment as far away as Malta, Abu Seweir was comparatively quiet and our duties were largely uneventful patrols though I do remember coming out of cloud over Alexandria being mistaken by a JU88 by our own Mediterranean fleet and hastily removing ourselves from a concentrated anti-aircraft barrage. Now around the time this time Hughie was seconded temporarily for ferry duties and I was a spare navigator a squadron leader pilot who had completed his tour of Whitley bombers was posted to 89 Squadron to learn to fly Beaufighters the aircraft Beaufighter and I acted as navigator while Hughie was away Squadron Leader Clements had great difficulty in mastering the Beaufighter which tended to swing to starboard on take off and landing one day we took off as usual but squadron leader temporarily lost control and we were at right angles from the runway before we had got to the end we then wondered around the sky while I showed him our various points of interest Port Said, Alexandria and so on and eventually we approached our own airfield and he began his descent on landing he failed to control the swing tendency but this time on the landing the aircraft was once again at right angles to the runway [laughs] and heading straight for to a Hurricane which was occupied the Hurricane was, its’s engine, where are we, was running because the chocks had not been removed because the people who pulled the chocks away the aircraft er yeah the airmen who pulled them away couldn’t quite rightly saw that if they stayed where they are they would get killed by us you see, so anyway, I still remember I had not yet been [?] so he so that he was stationery I still remember the look of absolute panic on the face of the hurricane pilot as we removed his starboard wing [laughs] can you imagine that as we went by [laughs] the nearest the furthest away he could get so yes so fortunately he didn’t get hurt at all the squadron leader added to our problems by turning around in ever decreasing circles and the undercarriage finally collapsed on the ground we stopped I had a slightly bruised knee for the second time I also remember Squadron Leader Clements saying ‘I’m terribly sorry flight sergeant’ I was a flight sergeant by then my own reply had better not be printed. Fortunately Hughie returned the following day there was very little action around this time and when early in 1943 we were asked to volunteer for a three month detachment in India where the Japanese were reputed to be bombing Calcutta heavily and frightening the local population many of whom ran panic stricken into the jungle we gladly responded positively the volunteer flight of eight Beaufighters was commanded by Flight Lieutenant George Nottage a first class chap he and I became great friends after the war, after an interesting albeit uneventful side trip Dum Dum Airport Calcutta with various stops in the Gulf and in Bombay we arrived and moved to RAF airfield at Bicarchi [?] we then found that the enormous Japanese bombing turned out to be three Mitsubishi bombers flying at night with their lights on, I’m not joking, and carrying antipersonnel bombs, the night after we arrived the first of our eight crews on night readiness was piloted by a chap called Flight Sergeant Pring sure enough three Japanese bombers in formation with their lights on approached Calcutta and Pring duly shot them all down in four minutes his radar navigator W Warrant Officer Phillips didn’t have a much to do, two nights later three more Japanese bombers approached Calcutta this time shot down by an Australian flight lieutenant, the name escapes me, and his radar navigator Warrant Officer Moss unfortunately Moss could not have been looking at his radar set at the time because he overlooked the Jap fighter that was shadowing his three bomber friends and he shot the Beaufighter down happily happily, there is no tragedy in this so unhurt when they crash landed they were picked up by Burmese Irregulars [?] called Force 136 who looked after them and they were taken to the nearest allied post and in due course returned to us, thereafter Japanese night bombing ceased because they didn’t know about radar you see radar was so important to us enough in the war it was one of the keys that got us the win, I forgot to mention on arrival at Dum Dum we were told that as were now under RAF India Command our service was to last three years and not three months [laughs] you can imagine our reply [laughs] but I wouldn’t tell you. Consequently we spent most of our time in Burma what is now Bangladesh we were based in Chittagong resorted to intruder flights over Burma where our targets were mainly trains and convoys of lorries these were fairly long flights and I remember in particular Rangoon and Mandalay we also dropped the occasional senior officers to Infall [?] where the 14th Army were besieged the airport there used to be attacked during the day but we managed without incident, er one hot summer day what’s all this about, oh yes this is interesting, one hot summer day in 1943 I was laying on my Charpoy [?], do you know what Charpoy it’s a straw bed, er where am I oh yes, er perspiring freely, wh en an officer came to my billet and told me to quote his own words ‘George wants you’ and I asked ‘why?’ and the officer didn’t know ‘I don’t know go and ask him’ I duly presented myself at the officers mess and in due to course to George Flight Lieutenant Knowledge Flight Lieutenant Nottage came to the door and said ‘oh hello Charlie move your move your stuff in here you’re an officer now’ that’s how I got promoted this was the sum total of my officer training it’s silly isn’t it [laughs] but it’s true [laughs]. As an officer in addition to my navigation duties I was given various jobs i.e. savings officer, officers mess, bar officer and entertainments officer, every Friday I sat at the end of the airmen’s weekly pay parade and collected such amounts as such as each airman gave paid from his weekly wage to be handed a savings certificate in return for his donation which I then banked. My bar officer duties consisted of replenishing stocks from weekly visits to Calcutta and setting prices for all the different types of alcohol initially I made myself very unpopular by raising the prices but this changed completely when I opened the bar for free for the five days around Christmas, I am considered to be responsible for the squadron leader admin acquiring DT’s. My most memorable experience as an entertainments officer was when I learnt that Vera Lynn was visiting the area this was just after the end of the war in Europe actually and Egypt and so on, I made an emergency flight to Calcutta and at short notice given an appointment and I successfully persuaded her to come to Bicarchi and giver a concert there which was of course highly successful despite the fact the only date we could offer was the Sunday at which she said ‘well it’s me day off really but I’ll do it for the boys’ what a wonderful person she is. Shortly after my pilot and various other officers having completed their flying duties were flown home, my flying duties were also completed but instead of being flown home I was promoted to Flight Lieutenant and posted to Basci [?] Air Quarters in Delhi there I was initially responsible for organising the various training headquarters throughout India for Indian Air Force Ground Crew, excuse me, nearly finished. After a few months I was transferred to the organisational department with the grand title of ORG1A here I was once again promoted to squadron leader and was involved with planning the invasion of Singapore unfortunately somebody dropped an atom bomb and ruined all my work subsequently I handled various aspects of construction on airfields under our control and exceptionally after the war ended this included the Indian Officer Building of British Overseas Aircraft. At long last I was posted home with my wife, not this one [laughs], Winnie was a WAF corporal whom I had met in Accrington years ago we’d been in correspondence since then and she followed me to India via Ceylon at the first opportunity but the disparity in our ranking met with some disapproval but we still married in Delhi and gave a popular ceremonial drinking party on arrival in England in 46 after due leave with my new family [?] er oh yes well after that I mean you don’t want to know you won’t
AH: I wouldn’t mind knowing what you did after the war?
CB: Oh right, my work at Air Ministry was a member of the British bombing survey I was posted to Air Ministry to assist in the analysis of the different bombing targets as instructed by Air Marshall Bomber Harris you’ve heard of him, his policy of bombing towns to break the morale of the German people was considered [coughs] correctly in my view as wrong both strategically and morally because the carriage that resulted the carnage that resulted failed completely to break the German civilian aircraft German civilian morale and cost our Bomber Command fifty per cent casualties the highest casualty rate of any arm of any service in allied command that’s true Bomber Command, well I had an elder brother he didn’t last there you go. On my release later in 1946 the RAF paid for a short course in business admin and a posting for two years, do you still want to hear that, at six pounds per week [laughs] er in a repetition woodworking company specialising in turnery where I was supposed to continue my business training in fact I was in effect an underpaid office manager my boss was so pleased with me that he doubled my pay to twelve pounds per week ‘cos he only paid six of it and the government paid the other however when the two years were completed and the government subsidy of six pounds per week ceased his attitude changed during this time I qualified as a Chartered Secretary my workload kept on increasing and after blazing row I left, still go on. It took me a few months to find a decent job during this time I kept the family in funds by selling insurance door to door you know life insurance door to door for the United Friendly Insurance Company, the branch I worked for used to give a ballpoint every week to the salesman who sold the most insurance during the week after five weeks I had acquired five ballpoint pens and the inducement for all salesmen ceased, during this time I kept on answering advertisements for office managers as a result of which I recognised I acquired a recognised office managers job in Thetford ooh six hundred and fifty a year getting all right, Winnie and Rosalind remained in the rented flat in London for a few months as it took me some time to find suitable rented accommodation in Thetford, er well nothing there really nothing. We stayed in Thetford until 1969 1949 sorry the company I served manufacturing company raw material moulded pulp the raw material was discarded cardboard boxes which by immersion into water produced articles such as baby baths, trays and flower bowls we were in fact the largest producer of babies baths in England, it had another division in a branch factory in Newmarket using vulcanised fibre to make two thirds of Britain’s coal miners helmets at that time the miners workforce in the UK numbered seven hundred thousand, one of the papier mache formed the basis for motorcycle crash helmets which we sold to a firm called Helmets Limited for the vast sum of two shillings and ten pence, when the Duke of Edinburgh initiated the idea that all cyclists should wear crash helmets I persuaded my company to market a new product as we had the equipment and the technique to make completed cyclists and motorcyclists helmets, I was given carte blanche by my boss to devise a new production line and advertise and market the product which I named the Centurion this product rapidly became the most successful of all work and profit doubled during that time I qualified by correspondents course as an AC as a cost and works accountant now enjoys a more prestigious title a cost and management accountant ACMA the company was owned by an absentee board of directors I was congratulated by the chairman who said that as a result of what I had done about the crash helmet I would be given a bonus of one hundred pounds this resulted in my leaving the company and taking a job in Calcutta as chief cost accountant for the largest group of paper mills in India at three times my previous salary, oh you don’t know anymore it goes on you know, well basically after that oh yes of course I was in India, gr oooh, oh yes that could be interesting actually. I left my family with Winnie daughter Rosalind aged eight then she’s now sixty nine now she’s seventy no rising seventy still going strong.
Other: No, no you mean Winnie you mean no no no you don’t mean Ros.
CB: I mean Rosalind her daughter is nearly seventy yes that’s right, er how could she be nearly seventy then? Oh yes of course she can but I’m ninety five. In Aiden I bought a blue Rolex Oyster Royal for fourteen pounds which I still have, [laughs] must be worth a hundred or two, we landed in Bombay proceeded by rail to Calcutta here we were met taken by road to Chandannagar [?] which is on the Hooghly River about thirty miles away where we billeted in a very large flat in a compound with other paper mill executives, errr well nothing very well yes [laughs] well I’ll show you how it changed my life I was soon advised that as cost accountant I was responsible for all the accounts and I controlled the stores at that time two large paper mills the largest being in Chittiga and the other where I was based in Chandannagar [?] I was provided with a chauffeur driven limousine which enabled me to visit both mills every day Monday to Friday at each of which there was a storekeeper controlling very valuable stores for equipping the papermill machines at each mill a large area was allocated for storing of thousand tonnes of bamboo sticks for bamboo we made the paper out of the bamboo, ah and having been cut down by contractors from miles around the bamboo was weighed on arrival before being unloaded and the moisture content which varied from freshly cut forty percent moisture down to seasoned around ten percent was weighed at the main at the mill weighbridge and the contractors were paid only for the seasoned weight this was obviously capable of corruption between the contractor and the weighbridge keeper I very soon found that corruption was endemic in the end this was an example I appointed a [?] the weighbridge keepers who were Indian but understood and spoke English as at the time I spoke no Urdu one of the weighbridge keepers said to me ‘don’t worry Barron saab while I am in your backside no harm shall come to you’ it was impossible to sack anybody at the as the union was very strong so I merely had him sidestepped the other stores housed in large buildings which were locked up out of working hours by the storekeeper this was also subject to corruption and as the chief engineer British was also corrupt I found in due course that control was virtually impossible, the Head Office was in Calcutta and my own boss whose title was simply the boss my own boss he was number one and I was number four answered my query on the subject of corruption by saying tongue in cheek ‘you can take anything which you can eat or drink but nothing which crackles or rings’ there you go, social life was good especially for me, after a few months Winnie took Rosalind home to England we’d already booked Rosalind for a place in boarding school I’d taken the oh yes I’d taken the opportunity to play my violin and in fact I joined the Calcutta Symphony Orchestra as deputy lead violinist the orchestra was composed largely of amateurs like myself and it was conducted by a Welsh Englishman David Jacobs whose family owned several jute mills as Calcutta was on the world circuit of prestigious soloists and I was the only fairly knowledgeable musician we occasionally entertained famous names such as [?] and I was placed next to him keep him entertained at dinner in the luxurious head office dining room [?] and I took to each other and we had a most stimulating discussion about the life of a professional musical soloist he invited me to call on him at the Savage Club in London whenever I managed to get back to England unfortunately he died before my first home leave, I did call on David Jacob’s family in London to go and see, err [flicks through pages], oh yes [laughs] the work conditions were not without interest and occasional excitement as for example when my office was invaded by some hundreds of bamboo coolies demanding a rise in wages this was understandable because they were quote “outcasts” unquote and were at the lowest possible rate of pay thirty rupees per month about ten shillings per week of fifty pence as we now call it my hands were tied but I did manage to have their pay increased as a result of my representation on their behalf at head office this put them on equal pay with the next cast rank above whose member well the members were not at all pleased. I was rather more for more fortunate than the chief engineer of a large engineering company in Calcutta when his workforce through him in the boiler [laughs], as the executive responsible for labour relations throughout both paper mills I was chairman of the grading committee, er oh yes mmm, you don’t want to know about all that, oh yes well during this time yes I got a Dear John letter from Winnifred telling me she was leaving me and wanted to marry my best friend I was naturally devastated there had been no hint of this before I left England, my six months furlough was not due for about another year but my company were good enough to bring my furlough forward for a few months during this time I managed to divorce Winnifred and put Rosalind into a good private school and then er when I came back I had time to spare and I it was six months you see and after a couple of months I got a temporary job in National Farmers by the National Farmers Union as a representative of Joe Nickerson and Company have you heard of them well it’s very big locally er it’s a seed growing company which offered to pay me adequately for introducing a new lawn seed called “Agrosstistolernepherous” [?] to retail seed sundries man and they gave me free rein to go where I wished and call on retail seed sundries man and after, I’m cutting this short, after a few weeks I decided to report and after initial annoyance that I had not sent them weekly reports Nickerson were delighted with the number of seed sundries men I had appointed added to their customers, the annual summer dinner dance I was invited to attend as their guest the organiser was the managing director’s PA and who introduced herself to me during the course of the evening her name was Janet Franklin and we were married about one month afterwards, unfortunately I received an urgent call from my Indian employers to return to India immediately a flight [coughs] a flight had been booked for me to return on Christmas Day which meant I had to leave Janet behind for about two months while she had while she put her local affairs in order and she joined me a eighteen months later ahhh [long sigh]. I soon realised that the salary I received in India could be equalled with the greatest of difficulty and required considerable initiative and therefore initially having qualified for management accountant I decided to use it in the field of management consultancy so the first company I joined was a firm of charlatans and I left them to try my luck as a self employed consultant at this I was reasonably successful but my plants were rarely close to our home in Sussex being largely in Scotland and Northern England and this necessitated almost continued absence so when Jan Janice, not this lady, was hospitalised following a miscarriage we decided on her release to look for a home much closer to her family living in Grimsby and near Louth where she had been educated so then sixty one sold the house er in Sussex where we lived um for seven thousand five hundred pounds er and then we bought The Elms no we bought The Elms for seven thousand five hundred I think we sold the Sussex one for about the same The Elms was a large six bedroom house here in Louth er and then I was introduced to a gentleman called Ken Addison who was a general manager of a polythene film extrusion company owned by Pickford Paper Mills Ken was very anxious to run his own company but had no capital neither did I however in my travels I had made friends with a well to do business man named Anthony Jowell who was prepared to invest three thousand pounds and we needed about ten thousand although I had no money of my own my financial reputation was such that I was offered three thousand by the bank which was then the National Provincial Bank and Addison had a friend in the scrap metal motoring business and I persuaded his friend to buy three thousand to buy one thousand shares and make a shareholder for three thousand pounds and he did so the odd two thousand shares I presented to Ken Addison and he was the MD and I was the financial director that’s when we made some money real money, er do you want to know how [laughs], got pages yet, is that enough?
AH: Yeah [laughs] thank you its very interesting
CB: Cos I made another I started another company double glazing after this we sold our company that was where made some real money the first time but do you know what taxation was then? Maximum taxation of anything over one hundred thousand earnings was eighty five percent and capital gains that was the cheapest way out that was forty percent so when we sold our company we had to give the government forty percent of it doesn’t happen now its about fifteen not fair is it.
Other: If you remember tax on unearned tax on unearned income as opposed to earned income was ninety eight percent.
CB: Yeah the maximum
Other: Can you believe it?
CB: Ninety eight percent for unearned income if you were a rich person that’s the sort of money that they ought to be charging the very rich now but they don’t do they? Well that’s about roughly it oh yes the other company was double glazing
Other: Yes
CB: Yes Primo Windows
Other: Primo Windows
CB: Of course you don’t come from this area and I sold that after ten years having got this three thousand pounds and I sold that for another three hundred thousand ten years later so there we are okay.
AH: And where were you from originally?
CB: Pardon
AH: And where were you from originally?
CB: Islington.
AH: Really.
CB: Yes, 17 Chapel Market second floor above a shop of a er shop anyway where I shared two rooms with my mother, father, two brothers and a sister that was where I started.
AH: And why did you want to join the RAF?
CB: Where did?
AH: Why did you join the RAF?
CB: Well I I thought what a marvellous thing what a wonderful thing to be able to do fly like that
Other: And there was a war on too.
CB: Yes and there was a war on it was either RAF [burps] or army or navy and not being a very good swimmer navy was out for me and the army I didn’t fancy being in those blasted trenches all the time and the RAF sounded much more interesting and they accepted me so there we are [takes a drink], so I can let you have a copy of the relevant stuff if you want it [sifts through papers] er
Other: I can print some off
CB: Yes can you print pages four, five,
Other: Yes I’ll just go get it turned on
CB: Six and seven and eight I think that will do. And er at that time er I was given a job with the British Bombing Survey Unit er what the start of it actually the chap in charge was an air marshall I mean he was this was to have to investigate an air chief marshall’s duties so I I was I was a senior assistant to the bod [?] I forgot who it was now it was a very very well quite a well known name.
Other: Well that was Harris wasn’t it?
CB: No no that was the chap we were investigating.
Other: Oh right yes okay. So which is two cups I think they were actually these are clean.
CB: No these are new ones.
Other: Yes they are, there you go.
AH: Thank you.
Other: Did you have sugar? Lots of musical terms on there [laughs]
CB: Yes, er I can’t the trouble is my memory is not good it really isn’t and I.
Other: Very good you’ve just got ninety five years of memories to to drag out that’s the thing it’s the hard drive that’s full.
CB: What?
Other: The hard drive is full.
CB: Yes [laughs] I reckon.
AH: So what did you do exactly when you were there?
CB: When, when? I was well I had an office and a secretary I think yeah I did and I er I visited a I forget where a lot of information about how many aircraft which type of aircraft had had a percentage more er knocked down by the Germans and so on all sorts of things like that a lot of statistics and the statistic showed um cos I said the best things to do is to look at all the places that we were told to bomb by Harris and what the results were and he kept on um er he kept on giving the giving air command giving er fighter command the instructions to go bomb towns more than military targets and that’s why I said we killed a lot of German civilians and as a result of that that was part of my report when I said that we we er um unnecessarily went for these and put as my real reason which wasn’t quite my real reason the fact that we lost so many aircraft of our own fruitlessly that was really the sum total of what I found and he was disgraced and sent sent er but I wasn’t the only one there we were we were there was about a good half dozen of us going different areas and so on and so forth it was an important thing British Bombing Survey Unit there I had it all written down there so if you want to know [laughs] that’s what I was mainly in charge of or partly in charge anyway all right.
AH: And what reaction did you get to your report?
CB: Report well the report was then read by the top brass in Air Ministry and in due course he got the sack [laughs] well he was er he was dismissed to some very minor post in South Africa and er had no real power or duties after that and it’s only recently that some some idiots have started to resurrect him er as what a wonderful good chap he was but he really wasn’t there you are history can be distorted sometimes.
AH: And was the general view of like your family what did they think of Harris at the time?
CB: He was well they knew nothing any apart from the fact that I had lost a brother who was a navigator on Lancaster’s er I was lucky I was stuck where well I started before he did er and er didn’t get involved in bombing I was night fighting and intruding [?] and you were fine in there
AH: Where was your brother stationed?
CB: Pardon.
AH: Where was your brother stationed?
CB: Oh stationed in England and er his grave which we have visited is at er
Other: Hanover
CB: Hanover in Germany.
Other: That was very emotional wasn’t it?
CB: It was yes yes, he was he was a brainy fellow too and er he was a much brighter bloke more intelligent fellow than his elder brother who was a bit of a well nothing important shall we say yes.
AH: What was your brother called?
CB: Well he was originally christened Emmanuel but then people called him Manny and he didn’t like that so he rechristened himself Ernest and he was then called Ernie [laughs] in the same way as well I might as well admit I was born and christened my parents christened me Cyril and I didn’t like Cyril particularly in the air force where they made fun of it so I said my name was Charles and I have been Charles ever since now well it began with C so that was enough [laughs].
Other: You couldn’t do that nowadays could you [laughs] in fact it is much easier to change your surname than your given name.
CB: Well there you go.
AH: And what was it like working with when you started training on radar did you know anything about it before?
CB: Nothing whatso, well nobody did it was a high ever so secretive and as I say it was a very very important arm of the of the armed forces because we got to it before the Germans did and in consequence our our bomber um our defence night fighter defence er and day fighter for that matter ‘cos you could see them from oh even miles away so then [?] you could trace them it starts off with a ground office you’ve seen those photographs of WAFS with the stick in their hand [laughs] you can see their underclothes and there all round the table pointing at things and these are the directions that they are pointing at because you got the table was the map and they pointed to all and were told as they were told they pointed towards them and it was all done by the people controlling the radar because the radar it was a way of controlling um it would start off with a name radio direction finding that was what it was you see and they are all around us you can’t feel them or anything but there they all are and it was fantastic I wish I could remember the chap who discovered how to use them because he got highly decorated for it I think we met himah what was his name no good if it comes to be I’ll let you know but you can find that out anyway.
AH: Was it difficult to learn?
CB: We didn’t have much time did you, er I um my sole instruction of reading I had to read two tubes were two air tubes and various funny pictures upon them er one the left hand one had a line there straight along and that was the line started with the ground and ended and ended much in line with the heavens and if you were at ten thousand feet for example a little blip occurred at ten thousand it was all measured so that you would know if he was above you or below you and also how much above or how much and the distance and then you had another one like that another line like that and and there it was to the right of the left of the line either they were east or west as you were flying and however near you were or near they were to you or however further away and the idea was for us to move to use the radar which we could direct which we could find where if there was an aircraft in front of us within our our distance and our distance at that time was above er the distance we were above the ground so the higher we went the longer the tine the longer the line and this little blip was you could have a half dozen blips er above or below and there was there was also you could tell friend from foe by because they had a little er piece of equipment that once the little thing you looked at looked for and once you got the line you tried to follow it and catch it catch up with it then your pilot who had who had in a Beaufighter ohhh um four canon and six machine guns you could then shoot it down and he wouldn’t even know what hit him you see and a lot of people did that when the time came I was quite good at it as it so happens er it was as a sergeant a flight sergeant although we were on duty a lot when the commanding officer or senior officer came and there was a raid on he took over and he then went up when there was an aircraft there to get shotdown before we got a chance at it we used to get very cross about that but we weren’t officers [laughs] but there we are there all sorts of things I could teach you it would take years.
AH: Did you have to stare at it all the time?
CB: No no if the er we had loudspeakers attached to our ears and if the command if we heard there was ‘action is required’ or whatever we then we then stared we then stared at but we used it for all sorts of other reasons we used it for I had a map in front of me and if I wanted to get to a particular place a particular place say we were fifty miles away I could er I could use the radar to check where the objective was roughly and then get closer to it and closer to it until the pilot could see it so it was quite interesting – ahh I can’t remember it all that well it was a long time ago.
AH: What were the Beaufighters like?
CB: Oh great stuff um I’ll show you one.
Other: Oh right where is it its not a very big one
CB: There’s your Beaufighter [shows a picture] the pilot was there and I was there okay and we communicated by radar by telephone that’s it very manoeuvrable it was oh yeah and he was thank heaven for me he was a first class pilot and he seemed to think I was a decent navigator so we got on well in fact we got to know each other and he visited us after the war and we visited him in Canada, yes but he’s dead now died of natural causes.
AH: How come you went to a Canadian Squadron?
CB: That was when at the time it was the nearest definite one that was available that’s all I cannot tell you why I was picked in the Canadian Squadron or not I was very pleased about it eventually it didn’t make any difference to me whether it was Canadian or English but the Canadians were a good lot they really were, yeah I imagine that they were ones that had been they had been fully equipped and were and had so they were granted an airfield and off we went.
AH: And when you were flying to Rangoon and Mandalay were they Beaufighters as well?
CB: Oh yeah yes they were Beaufighters as well very very serviceable aircraft then they were outgrown in speed er and er by the Mosquitoes you heard of the Mosquitoes and I but the last couple of months they finally because we were the forgotten air force really out in India um we had to put up with Mos with Beaufighters for two and a half years really and then for a few a couple of months that was all I was I converted to Mosquitoes and then they said ‘no you are an officer now we’ve got an office for you now in Delhi go there so we went there do as you are told’.
Other: It was in Delhi where everybody ran screaming into the when the Japanese came over everybody ran screaming into the woods in Delhi.
CB: No from Calcutta which is east east they came and they took over Burma
Other: Oh yes
CB: And eventually they couldn’t they didn’t take over what is it now part of India called Bangladesh no it’s separate now which was Bengal which was at this end of Burma and so they never took that over completely although the British Army had a had an army which was defended they defended itself for who what was the number of that [?] well it’s in there somewhere I think anyway and er they defended themselves but they didn’t couldn’t defend them from the Japanese taking over Burma and that was when we had to fight from in the air to get it back and at that time the east part er the north east that way we managed to hang on to that bit and I was stationed at Chittagong you’ve heard of Chittagong look at the map and you’ll get a rough idea I suppose it would interest everybody it would interest at that time all we wanted to do was get home of course but three years [laughs] – and as I always did what I was told I got promoted [laughs].
Other: Don’t believe a word of it [laughs]
AH: Could you describe a flight for example to Rangoon?
CB: Could I describe a flight most of the time it was boring it just went boom boom boom for a thousand miles or so from where we were was it no it wasn’t quite as far as that it was about six or seven hundred miles oh yeah easy um that’s right then we had to find where we told to shoot at which we did through radar [laughs] and fly back unhurt we were lucky.
AH: What did you do in your spare time?
CB: How dare you [laughs] I don’t know what I did in my spare time probably got drunk half the time we had quite a lot to drink but that was in our spare time we were not supposed to well we had those of us who survived anyway had the common sense not to get drunk so that we couldn’t operate decently after all we had a family at home.
AH: Were there other people that didn’t though?
CB: Well people did get killed yes, Pring the man who shot those first three he didn’t survive so it was one of those things, ah.
Other: Still there can’t be many more survivors around really.
CB: Oh there are.
Other: No there can’t be you’ve got to be
CB: No not now who are still alive
Other: You’ve got to be seventy five upwards haven’t you at least may be more
AH: Yeah more may be
CB: Oh yes you won’t have any youngsters, I was always twenty years younger than the century very easy to remember.
AH: And was your father in the First World War?
CB: He was but er he wasn’t English he was Rumanian and my mother was Lithuanian and I am a Jew as you’ve gathered.
AH: So when did they come to Britain?
CB: Oh they came they came to Britain from their relative countries before the First World War before the First World War to escape the er Pogroms, Russian Russian and Rumanian Pogroms and er they had relatives that I lost touch with I’m afraid a long time ago they had relatives in Manchester and er and er in London so er we ended up in London and er I cannot understand this but we ended up in London but the people who to be honest I can’t explain it but the people who they got in touch with who they were related both my mother’s relatives related to people in Manchester why my parents and co ended up in London and settled there I just cannot tell you but they did and of course there was quite a large Jewish population in the east end of London and er.
Other: Anyway London was nearer to Europe.
CB: London was nearer to Europe so it was easier to get to I suppose yes, there is so much of my early years I just cannot understand the domestic situation all I know is that we were not very well off you see there we are.
AH: Were you aware of the build up were you like Cable Street and?
CB: Cable Street
AH: Yes
CB: Cable Street that was Jewish yes that was Jewish but we didn’t live there that was the east end for some reason or other we settled in I no there was in Chapel Street London it was a Rumanian Jewish settlement and it was a market and they used to have stalls stalls stalls rather outside shops some of them quite a few of them had er either owned or rented the shop and were quite well to do but my parents did have a shop and had to rent a stall so there we are no we weren’t very well off shall we say [laughs] there you go it happens.
Other: So the remote chance of you being in North Lincolnshire at this point in time amazing isn’t it.
CB: Well as I say that that you’ll find in there as to where why we came to Lincolnshire why I came to Lincolnshire we didn’t come together my first wife had gone off with my best friend and my second wife I hadn’t met until I er was asked by these Nickersons who were very very wealthy farmers in where we are very wealthy now and er by Nickersons to er and I volunteered I put an advert in the Times ‘cos I’d done the divorcing bit and I had four months to spare before I went back from my six months furlough back to my accounting firm in India you see and er it was then I put this advert in the Times saying I had this four months did anybody want to employ me and they did having interviewed me here some in Grimsby yes and given me this job er particularly it was rather nice for them no no no this was a long time after after [?] I’m getting myself confused I’m sorry but er
Other: You know there used to be in the time when lots of people worked in India and other places and they would normally do two and a half years overseas and then come back for six months.
CB: This is what I did.
Other: This is what he did and I’ll tell you they were a bit of a menace sometimes because they were coming back with nothing to do for six months can you imagine it.
CB: Well as I say.
Other: Particularly if they didn’t have families you know.
CB: Well I had lost my first wife I’d divorced my first wife and her daughter had been born then Rosalind who’s alive now but er I’d got her into what’s the name of the top class school?
Other: Roedean
CB: I got her into Roedean so she had a Roedean education and on holiday she used to be with my sister my sister had a home in London and it was quite a nice home her husband was the you see that carpet there in the next room have you had a look at it it’s a very good one he used to be the branch manager of Derry and Toms Carpeting department [laughs] and I got that comparatively cheaply but I suppose probably wouldn’t make much difference now I’ve had it some considerable time but it’s a very nice carpet do you want to have a look at it? [laughs]
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Charles Baron
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-21
Format
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01:09:51 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaronC160321
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Baron grew up in London and volunteered for aircrew in 1940. He trained as a navigator and on radar. He later volunteered for overseas duties and was posted to India where he flew intruder operations over Burma. After the war he worked training Indian Air Force ground personnel and with the British Bombing Survey. When he left the Air Force he qualified as a Chartered Secretary and worked in India and the UK.
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
Egypt
Great Britain
India
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
aircrew
Asian heritage
Beaufighter
Blenheim
entertainment
faith
final resting place
forced landing
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
navigator
perception of bombing war
radar
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1930/38411/EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0001.jpg
32a3a64dd7fa8bb020f5b2cbe0a848cb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1930/38411/EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0002.jpg
a670e6d0c8698791e3d884197b48e97d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1930/38411/EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0003.jpg
511198a9f46c3aa2cd513025d8942a9a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1930/38411/EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0004.jpg
b598f984e705c7c6b9007024866a0aea
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dwyer, John Henry Patrick
J H P Dwyer
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dwyer, JHP
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant John Henry Patrick Dwyer DFM (b. 1913, 746829 Royal Air Force) and contains documents, correspondence and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 57 Squadron and was killed 9/10 November 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John L Dwyer and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on John Dwyer is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/106743/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Letter to JHJP Dwyer's Wife
Description
An account of the resource
The letter from the wife of a crew member, Sergeant Bartle, asks if she has heard anything about the crew. She has been in touch with Pilot Officer Griffin's wife and Pilot Officer Walsh's wife. Air Gunner Grellier's mother also wrote to her. Sergeant R O'Neil, a second gunner, is reported dead.
Creator
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Annie Bartle
Date
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1943-09-16
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Manchester
Northern Ireland--Londonderry
Germany--Lüneburg
New Zealand
England--London
England--Lancashire
Germany
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
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Two double sided handwritten sheets
Identifier
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EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0001, EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0002, EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0003, EBartleADwyer [Mrs]430916-0004
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription. Allocated
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-11-09
1942-11-10
1943
air gunner
aircrew
final resting place
killed in action
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/160/3631/ATolleyF150702.1.mp3
1f262a350f3520a97a72c9378cac3278
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tolley, Frank
F S Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Stanley Tolley (b. 1921, 1152777 Royal Air Force), his log book and four photographs. Frank Tolley was a Lancaster bomb aimer with 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. He completed 22 daylight and night time operations before the end of the war in Europe and also flew on Operation Manna, Operation Dodge and Cook's tours.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Tolley and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Tolley, FS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Frank Tolley. And this interview is taking place at Mr Tolley's home in Sale near Manchester on the second of July, two thousand and fifteen. So, we've talked a little bit about what, what we er, want you to talk about, Frank. Perhaps if you could just start off with with you date of birth, and where you were born.
FT: According to my certificate I was born on the twentieth of July, nineteen twenty one, in Tipton, which was then Staffordshire, now West Midlands.
AM: Right. And what, what, erm, what was your early life like, what did your parents do?
FT: My father was a railway signalman. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, and er working at home. She er, she never went out to work after she married. Erm.
AM: What about family? Did you have brothers and sisters?
FT: I had three younger brothers, no sisters. I didn't know anything at all about girls. When, er you were growing up it was sissy to know girls in my day. (Laughs) How times have changed. No it was all pals. You were always kicking a ball around with pals, or using a bat or whatnot, or cycling. Yeah. Life was great, it was super. (slight pause) School-days. But, er, like most families in the twenties, we were very poor. Dad had to have his smoke, and his ale (unclear), and he was an ex-service World War One Royal Marine, but he received a pension because he developed pneumonia, and became unfit for duty any more, and he used to have his pension, his pocket money, and when he came home he'd turn over all of his wage to my mother, and she had to do the best she could with it. I well remember, I think it was nineteen twenty six or seven, the General Strike. I thought it was great having Dad at home all the time. We were on the coal banks picking coal, and I remember my mother crying on one occasion, and I learned later that Dad had been to the branch office of the union, and came back with a two pound bag of sugar and a quarter of tea, quarter pound of tea. That's all they had coming in for the week. But apparently my maternal grandparents subsidised us during the strike time. To add insult to injury, er, when my father went back he went back for a wage less than he was getting before. That, that's how it was, they came- it was the General Strike! Everybody seemed to come out. The miners started, but er, the miners went back eventually, they left the railwaymen holding the baby, so to speak, (chuckles) and that's – I'm repeating not from what I've read, but from what I learned and what I was told during that time, you see. Yep. And (pause) during that time I did get a place at Tipton Central, which became a grammar school. I only went there for three months, and my father was upgraded, but it meant that he had to move to another signal box which was a few miles away, and we moved out of Staffordshire into Worcestershire. My parents were ignorant to the fact that I could have had a transfer, so I went back to an ordinary school, and left there when I was fourteen. I had to go and get the first job I could to help the family exchequer, my mother. I wanted to go into an office, not realising that as an office boy all you did was lick stamps and put them onto er-, and run errands. The only job I could get, apart from going into a factory, and I didn't want to do that, was as an errand boy with a grocers. Fifty four hours a week for ten shillings a week. When you weren't developing er, delivering orders, you would be in the back of the shop working there, and I lifted – (background beeps and rustling of papers)
AM: So we just had a pause while there was somebody at the door, and Frank was talking about working at the grocers, so off you go Frank.
FT: And then I say, when you wasn't delivering your orders, one of the jobs I did was working at the back of the shop, lifting, I was fourteen remember, hundredweight casks of butter from floor to table. It's a wonder we weren't ruptured, yes, yes a hundredweight would be about er, fifty kilos. It's quite, er, quite a weight to be lifting at that time, cheeses were sixty pounds, and you had to (unclear). And then, another job was having a load of goods in a basket, put on my arm, and sent round side streets selling to women who was waiting for Friday to get paid, and I'd got to try and sell what I had in my basket. It was, it taught you how to work, but it was hopeless, I, I didn't like the job, and when I saw anybody from school, that had left, coming along, I would dodge down a side street because I felt ashamed doing the job that I was, a proper little snob, really (laughs). Because I wanted to do better than what I was doing, that was life's end, and sadly, very sadly, it was the war that gave me my, my opportunity. It was. Joining the RAF was like, er, university for me, met all types.
AM: So, what year did you join?
FT: Nineteen forty when I was er, just after I was nineteen. I would have been called up when I was twenty, but I had a hankering, because I was keen on photography, I used to print my own, and I thought it would be good to be an aerial photographer, not realising it wasn't manual any more, it could be done automatically, and all that, and anyhow, I joined the RAF, and became a ground gunner, and then, when the Regiment was formed, I was one of the founding members of the RAF Regiment. But I was with them for about eighteen months before I was accepted for flying, and er-
AM: What sort of things did you do in the Regiment?
FT: I hadn't got a School Certificate, you see, I didn't have a School Certificate, so I couldn't go directly for flying, but (slight pause) one night I was, in the Regiment, I was manning Hispano-Suiza cannon, the type they had in the fore-wing of the Spitfire and Hurricane, and Gerry passed over our airfield, which was near Nuneaton, it was called Bramcote, RAF Bramcote, to bomb Coventry, but they were too high for the range of this Hispano-Suiza, and next day I went home, hitch-hiked through Coventry, I lived on the West side of Birmingham, of course saw Coventry and saw how, how things were (unclear), and though, 'hells bells, if this war is going to be won, it's going to be won from the air'. That was my reaction. I wasn't being disparaging about the Army, or the Navy, but I felt that's how this war was going to be won. Went back, expressed my sentiments to the fellows in the barrack room, and said, 'look, we have automatic weaponry training, I'm going to see if I can become an air gunner'. And several others, three or four others said, 'that's an idea, we'll join you'. The next week, we went on the same afternoon, but separately, for interviews before the, er, the station commander, the squadron commander, the padre, and the education officer. And er, er, my colleagues, they were accepted straight away, and left the Regiment within three weeks, but they offered me, much to my surprise and delight, the PNB scheme that was to train as pilot, navigator, or bomb aimer. Jingo! If there's a chance of being a pilot, when the war's finished I'm going to be alright! That was me. So I gladly accepted that, apart from which, it was top rate of pay for (unclear). (chuckles) And, but, I had to wait over six months for my course to come through, and do you know that, it was just luck of the draw, my colleagues that had gone as air gunners, they'd all had the chop, they'd all been killed. These three of four of them, including my best pal, and he came from Walton in Liverpool, he was twenty one, and this was in nineteen forty three, and he can only have done three or four operations, (pause) from (pause) I have his memorabilia, which I've had from er, well memorandum actually, from the Imperial War Museum, from the computer there, and I've got the er, grave where he was buried, which was in Belgium, the grave row and number, and maybe this year, if I can, er, I'll go across there, put a British Legion cross, wooden cross on, on his grave. I can't remember the names of the others, but it's er, it's just how, how things were. And, er -
AM: So when you started your training.
FT: Yes, I went up to Scarborough for the, erm, initial training, which was groundwork, and learning the the, er, constellations, because we, we needed this later on, we needed to know the stars, and whatnot. And then, following that, went to an airfield near Carlisle to fly in Tiger Moths, twelve hours in Tiger Moths, but I didn't solo. Some did, some sort of got it very quickly, but I had some ear trouble, and I couldn't hear, and I was scared stiff to report this because I didn't want to be dropped off. And, anyhow, from there I came up to Manchester for the first time, went to Heaton Park, and there was a holding unit to decide what we would train for, be it pilot, navigator, or bomb aimer, and I, I knew it wouldn't be pilot because I hadn't soloed, And (slight pause) from there you went to Canada, or from, or to South Africa for your training, but the camp was chock-a-block with us cadets, and a number of us were billeted with local families, and I was billeted with a Jewish family in Prestwich. The first time I'd had any dealings with Jews, they were delightful people, thoroughly enjoyed it. Could be the fact that I met, was introduced to, one of the neighbour's daughters, and we palled up whilst I was there (chuckles). And anyhow, went to Canada. I couldn't tell my parents where I was going, but I, I said, when I went on embarkation leave, that, 'when I know, I will write to you, and put five ha'penny stamps on the letter if I'm going to Canada, or two penneth and a ha'penny stamp if I'm going to South Africa.' They had the letter with five ha'penny stamps on, so they knew where I was going. I was away for about five or six months, and do you know, whilst I was over there, I met a (slight pause) a physical training instructor, a sergeant, who lived in the same road as myself, he was two years ahead of me at school, two years older than me at school, and he'd been training over here in Manchester, paratroopers. He'd done quite a number of jumps himself, and so they just sent him across to Canada, for a break, I suppose, doing two years over in Canada, as a physical training instructor. And he was shopping, as I was, when we met, for his, his daughter, who'd been born just a week or two after he'd got over to Canada. And I said, 'well, I'll be going back shortly, I'll take those back for you'. Because, his brother worked for the same company as myself, and this I did, I took them for his wife. Later on, another coincidence, when war had finished, to find us something to do before the squadron stood down, we went over to Italy to bring troops back for demob. They'd come back with us in three hours, or by land and sea in three days, and some of them had been out there for years, and I suppose they thought, 'well we've come through all this, we might just as well finish off going with these, with this crazy bunch', and we could put in twelve, lying down in the fuselage, and we left one gunner behind, and took one with us to hand out the sick bags. And I would have a couple of them coming into the nose, give them a break, let them see just what happened, because I had a good viewing in those-, upwards, sideways, and downward, so yes, so they liked that. But the first time we came back, I remember, one chap must have had it blooming hard, because once he got out, as soon as he got out of the aircraft, he kissed the ground.
AM: Yes.
FT: Yeah, yeah, was so touching to see.
AM: So glad to be back. Tell me a bit about the training in Canada, what was that like?
FT: Oh, (unclear) I went first of all to (pause) Pingo. On the north shoreline of Lake Erie to do bombing and gunnery. Did bombing in Avro Ansons, and the gunnery in Blenheims. And then did navigation, went to No.1 AOS, Air Navigation School of the Canadian Air Force, in Malton, that was near Toronto, 'Torronno', they called it, Toronto, and we did, I think about six weeks of a navigator's course, you know, just in case the navigator went for a burton then you'd be able to muddle through (chuckles), probably. But the only navigation that I did was when we went to, over to Italy, in the daylight, and give our navigator a rest, let him take a view all round. I, I navigated us there. But there were times when I had to go into the astrodome that was between the pilot's cabin, er, the pilot's area, and the mid upper gunner, which you saw there, and I would have the astro compass with me, and I would take, and this is where you learned about the stars, the different constellations, I would take a shot of two stars, and the readings on the compass from those two stars I would pass down to the navigator, and providing I'd given him the names of the right stars for him to check, and my readings were correct, he would then plot them onto his Mercator chart, and where the cross was, he would relate that to the cross that he'd got, to see just how near, or how far, he was away, and, you know, that helped sometimes. On one occasion we had the scanner knocked off, and, I think that was on Cologne, and that was a bad night, we lost, we lost three from our, our airfield on that occasion (pause) quite a lot, (pause) lost that night, it seemed as though the Germans knew every turning point that we made, and our gunners had to call out whether they saw aircraft shot down, for the navigator to plot, but they were calling through so many that the pilot said, 'don't call out any more, the navigators got enough to do to get us there'. That's how it was. And weaving and doing, we weren't lost, so to speak, we were unsure of our position. And then suddenly, I saw lights ahead, and I said, 'bloomy, we're coming over Switzerland, and they opened a token barrage at us, not, not to hit us but to show that we were over their territory, and the navigator gave a general direction course from that for home, and daylight broke before we crossed the coast in France, and I was able from my maps, I was able to give the navigator a pinpoint, and he just, 'alter course, only very slightly', to the pilot, and he brought us (pause) over-
AM: He brought you home.
FT: Yes, yes. Aye.
AM: Just going back to the training, you did the training in Canada (FT agreeing in background) to be a bomber, you did some navigation, but the bomb aimer training. So what was that like, the bomb aimer training part of it?
FT: Oh, well it was very much hit and miss. The bomb sight that we had there was the -, not a patch on the one that we used, that's because it was a computerised one that we had before. And er, there was a bigger barrel on the er, aiming, er, in every target area, and you went with the bigger barrel, and if you hit the bigger barrel or you-, that was it. But nobody ever hit the bigger barrel. (chuckles) We got near to it at times. It, it was fun. It just gave you some idea, and you were firing on, at a drone that was being towed by another aircraft, you see, and there were several of you firing at the same drone, but you, you had different er, coloured, er (pause) the bullets were painted or something. Anyway, they knew from the colour of the surrounding holes who'd fired, do you see, and how they, they related your proficiency as a gunner. Not, we only did this to be able to operate the guns. But, I had to on one occasion, not to operate, I had to take the place of our rear gunner. He was a bigger fellow than I was. His, er, he wore a heated jacket, you plugged it in, as I could in the nose, because there are two cold places. His went for a burton on one occasion, and he passed out. We couldn't make any contact with him at all. But I had to go down, get him out, bring him up, and fill him with coffee and get him thawed out, but I had to take his place for a couple of hours. Oh, was I glad that I wasn't an air gunner. You swung to port or to starboard, and your back was exposed, and up there between twenty five and thirty thousand feet,
AM: Cold.
FT: Oh, blooming cold. Be alright for baling out, I suppose, but oh, it was cold and so cramped, too.
AM: Especially if he was bigger than you.
FT: He was, yes.
AM: When you got to the end of your training, what happened then, then, you, how, you came back from Canada?
FT: Yes, yes, came home from Canada, and went to advanced flying unit, you know, to be, er, flying again in Ansons for er, (pause) bombing, er, going on to do bomb sights, and the navigators were there as well, doing navigation exercises and whatnot. And I was operating a camera then, a hand held er, to er, we would be told to photograph at a certain position, and I have several photographs. Some a mile away, some dead on, which was quite good, was important to everybody that er, were able to read the maps, to er, sufficiently to get on that right spot. So that was good. And er, our pilot, after he left us, he got the DFC for er, because we had some good bombing results. But er, (AM interrupts) the pilot and I, we met, after advanced flying unit, we had to go to operational training unit, OTU, and the pilot and I, we arrived within minutes of each other. He was then a warrant officer, and I was still a sergeant, and he and I were put into the same nissen hut. Nobody else in there, we were chatting away there for half an hour. So, we seemed to be getting on. He was an Australian, he'd been over here for a little while, he'd been flying, I forget what, aircraft that they trained the radio operators in, so he'd done quite a bit of flying in this country. And we seemed to get along quite okay. He was a bit younger than me. And he said, 'we'll be queuing up tomorrow,' and then in the next breath said, 'would you like to be my bomb aimer?' And you know, 'why not?', I thought, so I said, 'yes', because we seemed to get along quite well, and I suppose he thought I was okay, and I thought he was okay. Next morning, I was (unclear) around, and he went out and he er, met the gunners, who'd trained together, and the radio operator, and navigator. The navigator didn't stay with us, only for one or two trips, he was a bit behind, so he was given more training there, and we collected a navigator who'd like-ways been in his position, but he was alright, was Bill Porter, we got along quite well with him. He, his home had been bombed down in Essex. Anyhow, we crewed up and did bombing and navigation operations, training from Moreton in the Marsh, and then we moved, we were flying then in Wellingtons, and that's where I, er, handled the aircraft. I would have to have taken over if the pilot had gone, though goodness knows what would have happened, but that's how it went. But when we went to the conversion unit, to go onto four engines, we did just a couple of circuits and bumps in a Halifax, and then they decided er, because they had some Lancasters come in, that we go on to Lancasters, which from the pilot's and my point of view was a much better proposition, that we have to get on to the Lancs. And there we picked up our flight engineer, and with four engines you needed to have a flight engineer, and he was very good. He'd got it almost to a pint, the amount of fuel you had. But he was also a pilot, he was one of these surplus to requirements towards the end, and so a number of them were sent to St Athens(?) to do a flight engineer's course. He was a bit uptight, a bit upset about that because he'd trained to be a pilot, and he wanted to be a pilot. But in doing that I would have been likewise, but it so happened that he had to be er, a flight engineer. But on one occasion when we were still flying dual controlled aircraft, after our pilot had been passed as being okay, we were flying around and Bruce let (pause), I forget his name.
AM: It's gone.
FT: Jo! Jo Platt, land it. He was there ready to take over, but Jo Platt made a perfect landing. 'Oh, thank heaven for that. Hope neither of them get, get done, because I wouldn't want to be taking over on a big aircraft like this'. But, we were alright. We were hit on a couple of occasions, like I say we had the radar scanner knocked away, which may have saved our life, our lives, on that occasion. That was when we went to (pause) Nuremburg
AM: Nuremburg.
FT: and we got lost on the way back. And so the (pause) Jerry, because our scanner had gone, he couldn't track on, on to you. Apparently, what happened when we had the H2S working,
AM: The H2S?
FT: Yes, H2S that was called, that was the forerunner of the television and computer, yeah.
AM: Okay
FT: So, getting (pause) Jerry used to track on that, and so to counteract that, in the nose, I used to have bundles and bundles of tin foil to drop through the window chute to scatter about, and it blocked, it blocked their readings, you know, and stopped them tracking us. You know, imagine all these pieces of tin foil, they'd be about so long, and be about that wide, and be opened and scattered, you know, it reminds one of the, er (pause)
AM: So Frank was showing me how long they were, and they were about twelve inches long and a couple of inches wide.
FT: No, they wouldn't have been a couple of inches wide
AM: Less than that, an inch.
FT: This is, it certainly did the trick, dropped through the window chute. We used the window chute firstly because other than that when you needed to go to the loo, you had to go down, and it was situated behind the pilot's, er, behind the rear gunner's place, but we up front, we carried a jam tin, and we used that, and it would be passed down to me to pour down the window chute, otherwise, you see, you'd have to er, take off your oxygen, and take your oxygen bottle down with you (chuckles) it was all very crude compared to today’s flying, sort of thing. But it did us alright. But I did see the result of a miracle on one occasion, we, we'd been debriefed from one raid, we were going off to the mess, and a crew comes in and the bomb aimer is carrying his parachute, and it's torn to ribbons. He had a piece of flak about that long, with the widest part about like that. He'd clipped his chute on, as he always did before a bombing run, leaning over the target, er over the bomb sight, and this had come through, hit him in the chest, (unclear) at the foot of the pilot's controls, and he wasn't marked at all, yet it had torn his chute to ribbons, and he, you know, he was just (unclear) hanging with his (unclear) and they said, with this piece of flak. But his crew, they were going on leave the next day, so I suppose the rot set in, you know, the shock, when this thing hit him when, when he got home, but it's amazing how these things happen, 'cause another crew, on another occasion, brought their bomb aimer, he, he, he had the chop whilst they were up there. But they brought him back, they didn't drop him out. They brought him back. Yes, it was-
AM: Just going back to, you finished your training, you crewed up, you got your pilot, your whole crew (FT agreeing in background), so what squadron did you-?
FT: Six two five
AM: You were in six two five, where was that based from?
FT: That was over in (pause) Kelstern, that was the satellite airfield from Binbrook, Binbrook was the main one. Oh, it was very hard there, the sleeping quarters in the nissen hut was, oh, a good half hour away from the airfield, and the (pause) briefing and debriefing room, and the mess and whatnot (background noises, lawnmower)
AM: I'm just going to-. Okay, we think the strimmer's gone, so we'll continue, so erm, you're in Binbrook, in the nissen huts.
FT: We weren't in Binbrook, we'd like to have been in Binbrook
AM: Oh. You were in the satellite to Binbrook.
FT: Yes. It was very, very hard, in fact we had, we ran out of food, they hadn't even got food to us because er, vehicles couldn't bring food to us and we were there on the airfield trying to dig snow away for the runway, but to no avail, there was far too much, and as I say, we had to have food dropped to us, bread never tasted so good (chuckles). But it was, it was alright, but, you know-
AM: Did you fly your first oper-
FT: We did, we flew- we, we went, we joined the squadron in January forty five, and it wasn't until February the first that we flew our first operation. We had been, er what, er, briefed about eight or nine times and er, (papers rustling in background) I think the second, the second of February when we did our first op, but from my log book I'd copied, I'd lost this, and I found it again, and I've two more, more sheets describing the operations.
AM: So these are some details of the operations that you're showing me now, Frank.
FT: Yes, and-
AM: Might try and get a copy of that afterwards, if that's okay
FT: Oh yes, I can get copies on there for you, but you will see Dresden on here, if I can find some specs (long pause), yeah, here you are, Dresden. Gives you an idea. That was nine hours ten minutes, that flight, and the next night eight hours fifty minutes we went to Chemnitz. From the time of taking off at er, ten to ten at night for Dresden, and returning from Chemnitz , landing from Chemnitz, that was thirty three hours, which is eighteen hours flying in thirty three hours, and the rest of the time we, we'd been to bed, we'd been had three meals, we'd been debriefed from Dresden, and briefed for Chimnitz, but there was no aircrew medal for us.
AM: No.
FT. No, no, we had the France-Germany one which whether you were in action or whether you were desk-bound, or whatever, and desk-bound were people were needed, of course, in Germany, in France and Germany as well as those in action, but there was no distinction, but what happened, last year the Prime Minister decreed that aircrew that didn't receive the Aircrew Europe Medal should have a clasp with Bomber Command on it to go on the thirty nine forty five star, which happened, the er, the fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain, they had a similar clasp to go on the same ribbon with Fighter Command on it, and that, that was just to show that we were aircrews.
AM: Indeed. You were showing me some of the operations that you went on, there, Dresden and, how many operations did you do?
FT: Er, twenty two bombing, but I bombed on twenty occasions, not twenty two, and er, did Operation Manna, did four of those jobs.
AM: Yeah. Tell me about the difference, then, between the bombing runs and Operation Manna.
FT: Oh, it was such a relief after all the bombing to be doing Operation Manna. Sadly, it had to be done, they were dying in their thousands, and the Germany commander of the Western province knew it was all over bar the shouting, and he accepted that a truce be arranged so that we could go over there unmolested with the bomb bays full of food parcels to drop at different points. And, this was fixed for the first of May nineteen forty five, but they were so desperate, as I say they were dying in their thousands of starvation, that the RAF went on the twenty ninth and thirtieth of Feb-, of April, before the truce was official. And we flew at between three hundred and four hundred feet across the North Sea to er, well the first two drops er, before the truce, was in the Hague area, and my crew, we did another two after that to Rotterdam, but we went on leave then, so we, we, we didn't do the eight. The Americans went on the first of May, and they, er, they dropped six thousand tons in six drops in from Flying Fortresses, and we did seven thousand and twenty tons from, from Lancasters in eight, eight drops. And the story goes that the Americans, when they programmed this, they said they were the first to drop food to the Dutch. When I heard this I thought, but my log book proved that that was wrong, and I thought, 'no mate, but they were right'. Maybe they were the first to drop food to the Dutch once the truce had been signed, but we'd been twice before, but that was not mentioned in their programme (chuckles). I can't say, 'because they didn't know', because both forces knew what the others were doing, sort of thing. (unclear) Dresden, because they realised what had happened, what we'd done, the Americans went the next morning to bomb nothing there, just to be part of it.
AM: That was the Dresden bombs that you're talking about.
FT: Because there was no doubt about it, it was a genocidal raid, er, they say twenty five thousand were killed on that one night.
AM: Did you think that at the time, Frank, or were you, at the time you were just doing your job?
FT: Well when we, yes, when we went over there on that one, it was just one, I think we were third wave, it was just one mass of fire and flame, and the master bomber, I remember he called to us, 'overshoot five seconds'. That's a thousand and one, a thousand and two, that's how you got your five seconds. Didn't use the bomb sight, you just released them. He'd have done better just telling us to scoot off, go back. But, I tell you, twice we didn't bomb. On one occasion we went to (long pause) Breman, I think it was, on army support, and as we approached them it was ten tenths cloud, and when we got into the area the master bomber was calling us down, there was about three hundred of us, I was scared stiff, he was calling us down, so we could-, it was on a daylight, we couldn't see each other going through cloud, and I liken it to driving a car at sixty miles an hour, nose to tail, in fog (chuckles). That's how it seemed to me. Oh, I was glad when the master bomber called, 'Return to base'. We couldn't break cloud-base, and we didn't want to be doing as had happened on another occasion before, friendly bombing, you know, er, bombing your own troops, or your own people, so the master bomber said return to base, and we returned to base with er, landing with full bomb loads.
AM: With full bomb loads?
FT: Yeah, but you see, we hadn't, we hadn't got into the target area for me to do the necessary, so the pins were still stuck in the fuses. Yeah. But, er, there was that time, another time, when I said I wasn't bombing. That was in Nordhausen and we went to Nordhausen where the Germans had built, underground, a factory to replace the one that Bomber Command had bombed out at Peenemunde, where they were making the V1 and V2 rockets.
AM: Yeah
FT: And when we got over there again it was ten tenths cloud, and there were no over (unclear) target markers by the er, pathfinders. As I say it was another daylight, but bombs were being dropped everywhere, and I called the pilot, I had got everything ready, like before, 'I'm not bombing'. Because we'd been debriefed, we'd been briefed to the effect that there was a prisoner of war camp nearby, and I thought, 'hells, if any of our chappies had baled out, and been put into there'. I didn't want our bombs to be killing them, so I called to the pilot, 'I'm not bombing, it might be friendly bombing'. But the navigator called, 'oh, I've got it here on H2S'. So the pilot called to him, 'alright, bomb from your desk', which he could in case I'd gone for a burton he could, he, he had a pair switch there to enable him to get the picture on, on his apparatus, and release the bombs from there, which he did. But we found later that it wasn’t a prisoner of war camp, it was a slave labour camp, which was the same thing, you didn't want to be killing them. Anyhow, we failed to er, break through to hit this, this factory, but, and this probably explains why we did so much blitz bombing after that one, papers released since depict that the war would be going on another four months, Germany would have obliterated London with these rockets, and Oxford, where, which was never bombed, Hitler didn't intend having Oxford bombed, that was going to be the, the, er, German operating headquarters in this country, and they reckon that if the war had gone on for another four months Gerry would have got here with smashing London. There. So. That's why Bomber Harris, I suppose, did try getting the, demoralising the people. But we did such a lot of slaughter toward the end, there's no doubt about it. They, they weren't all military targets. No. And it er, (unclear), but you never forget about it. If you didn't talk about it, it would probably drive you round the bend. Fifty years after the war, my grandson er, Paul, up in Scotland, wrote to me from his school, said they were doing a project on World War Two, would I help him? Wrote back, 'alright Nick, how?'. His other grandpa had died by that time. And er, he sent me a list of questions, which I have somewhere, and among them was one, 'What do you think about killing people?' 'Gosh, Nick is that your question, or is this being asked by a teacher?' …. My answer to that was, 'Nothing. Until much later. Until after your father was born'. His father being my elder son. When I get something on my mind I tend to resort to poetry, I wrote him some poetry, and you've got a copy of it, haven't you? That's why er, that was written, just to enable him to understand.
AM: Understand. I'll copy that, the poem. To go with the tape.
FT: Well, I've got (microphone noises) something on the, on, on the Wellington.
AM: We're just having a look for Frank's poem. (Background noises). Here we are, we've found one, so I'll bring this with the tape. Or a copy of it. I can't see it without my glasses, Frank. (chuckles) I'll read it in a moment. (Pause) Do you want to read it out? For the tape?
FT: Yes. “Fifty years after World War Two my eldest grandson enquired of the part I then played, and What Did I Think About Killing People? Replying to this I recalled in nineteen forty I joined the RAF, not for a laugh, or for fun, but because war had begun. One who dared, I was scared. Up there in the sky, hoped I would not die. Later, in a Lancaster bomber's nose, looking down for the target markers. There! To port, the target's lit. Skipper and engineer see it too, and the aircraft's course is altered by ten degrees. I call, 'open bomb doors and report. Still too far to starboard. Left, left. Left, left'. And again, 'left, left. Keep it steady now. Steady, Steady'. With target on the bomb sight's cross, so, pair switch pressed, bombs all go, there below it's all aglow. When I call, 'close bomb doors', all the crew seems more composed. When navigator directs skipper, 'change course. Compass, three twenty degrees'. Now we're returning to base. Will a fighter give chase? Will there be more flak? All crew hope, maybe pray, we will again see Lincoln Cathedral when night becomes day. No thought, or prayer, for those we've killed, until much later. Only that another operation has been fulfilled. Then, at last, the war is over, and the thankful feeling that life is now a bed of clover, and I am proud to become a father. But, now for 'until much later'. Thoughts return of targets bombed, and wondering how many children, how many mothers did we kill in our participation to eliminate the Nazi ill.” That's what it was. (Pause) Don't. I'll sign this one for you. In (unclear) pen?
AM: Yeah. (pause) So it was much later that you thought about it?
FT: Yes, it was er, um, three or four weeks afterwards, you know, you couldn't, couldn't say much in reply to that, but I must find, I must find the other, see I've got here, one of three. It's (paper rustling), some of the information I've got notes, it's not all out of my log book, as you'll see at the very end of the last one, it's, er, it'll tell you how many aircraft were lost.
AM: Yeah.
FT: But I'll have to turn up the others and let you have a copy...
AM: Yeah, we'll copy all those afterwards
FT: of all three, yeah, yeah.
AM: So the war ended,
FT: War ended, thankfully. And then to find us something to do before we stood down we went across to Italy, er, er, to bring troops back, and the first time that we went over there (slight pause) I, erm, I, I, I navigated so the navigator could have an overview of the place. We went to (pause), we were billeted overnight, well for two or three nights, in, in the first instance, er, just outside of Naples, and on one occasion with two of the crew, I went sightseeing around Garibaldi Square, and went up into the Palace of Naples, and coming down the steps, three ATS girls were walking up, and lo and behold one of these was one that was with me at Sunday School years ago. That's how small the world is. But I'd also met her hitch-hiking between Coventry and Rugby when I was in the Regiment. This Army van pulled up, and give me a lift, and when I got in there was several ATS girls in, and she was one of them there. So for her I brought one or two things that she'd bought to take home to her parents. She lived about half a mile from my home. Yeah. (chuckles) How small is the world?
AM: Small world. What did you do after the war, Frank?
FT: I went back to the old company, where I could get a couple of quid more a month there than anywhere else, and it was, my pay, was less than half what I was getting in the RAF two weeks before. (Laughs) But, that was my experience of recession, but the fact was you'd come out all in one piece, probably fitter than when you went in, and that was a, a great compensation. But it took me about four years to catch up with those that had stayed behind. But they were very helpful, I was helped a lot. When I went back, then eventually they decided they wanted someone to come and develop sales up in the North West, and so I was given the opportunity to so do, which pleased my wife well, because she came from Warrington, and she couldn't believe we were coming back north. She'd moved down to the Midlands.
AM: When had you met your wife, Frank? Did you meet her during the war?
FT: Yes, yes, yes. When, er, when I had to come to Manchester, she and I, we had a mutual friend in Birmingham, and Mary said, 'Oh if you're going to Manchester, you must go across to Warrington and meet Bettie', which I did two weeks before I went to Canada. I wrote to her, as I did to other people I met along the way. And the er, (pause) for female cousins and girls that I knew I brought fully fashioned stockings back for them, with what little money I had. But I, I didn't have a pair to give to Bettie, and so she had nothing, and Bettie was the last one that I met, sort of thing. But, er, she came down to our mutual friend's one weekend, and we met up with her in the, in the, er, Mecca one Saturday evening, dancing, and we, we got along quite well, and the thing is, she said, 'Come up, come up next weekend'. Which I did. Because the first time I went, to her home, she was out. She'd gone to stay with, er, she'd gone to visit her friend from school, who was born, they were both born, in that house. There, that thatched cottage.
AM: Frank's showing me a picture on his his wall of a thatched cottage.
FT: yes, yes. That was the school house at Whinney, a little village just outside of Warrington, and at that time, when my wife was born, it had become split into two, one family lived in one part, and another family lived in the other. And my wife was born on the one side of it. And she'd gone to visit her friend. But my father in law, I would say, thought, 'Here's a likely looking fellow here, I'll get rid of one of them'. So he gets on his bike and goes to her, and she comes back on the bus, and I'm absolutely amazed, this big family, they, there were nine of them there, one was missing, she was in the Land Army, she was, er, that was Audrey, who came next to Bettie, Bettie being the eldest. The eldest of eleven. One, Rowena, died at six months when she caught measles from the triplets (chuckles), yeah, my mother-, my late mother in law had triplets among these eleven children. And in the triplets, the middle one, was Derek, he was the only boy of eleven (chuckles). But they seem to have got it so well organised, at the, at the, I had tea with them and everything was so, so well organised, and at times when it wasn't so at camp, I would refer, I would say, 'it needs the Deans here to get it organised'. 'Who are the Deans?' and then I'd have to go into the story and telling of this amazing family that I'd I'd met in Warrington. (laughs)
AM: Your wife's family.
FT: Yeah.
AM: I think we can't end the interview, Frank, without you telling me about the Imperial War Museum. And the zip wire.
FT: Oh, the zip wire (laughs)
AM: Tell me about the work you do for the Imperial War Museum North.
FT: Yeah, (unclear) I was going to a veterans meeting, and I saw what they were doing, and they had several volunteers with whom I spoke with, and they thoroughly enjoyed going, and so I decided I, I, I would help, because they were still after volunteers, and I go, normally, every Wednesday morning, not every Wednesday, but most Wednesday mornings. Sometimes, on other occasions, when needs be, and I generally work in the, on the ground floor, with the computers, on the computers there. Yes, I find it very good indeed. But (slight pause) a while ago, my church, it was (pause), the church hall roof, it was found, needed to be replaced, and the cost for this was going to be forty thousand. So how are we going to get the money? We started fund raising, and it so happened that at the Imperial War Museum they were having a wire erected from the top, right across the er, Manchester Ship Canal, to the Lowry Theatre. They'd done this two years earlier, and I was on voluntary duty on, at that time, and I was so fascinated by it I said, 'oh, what's the age limit?' 'Oh, there's no age limit. Two years ago we had a fellow who was eighty nine'. And, 'oo, I could do it then?', and he said, 'yes, if you have forty five pounds', which I hadn't. So I said to him, 'well, I'm a volunteer here, could I not do it as publicity for the museum?' 'Oh no, no'. Anyhow, about ten minutes later they came after me and said, 'yes, we've decided that you can do it'. So without any more ado, I just did it. And so I became the oldest, at ninety one, to have done it. And then I thought that this would be an idea for fund raising, so I reported at church that I would do this for a fund raising exercise, and so far I've raised, I think it's over three thousand-
AM: Three thousand pounds
FT: Yes, yes, from doing it again. But I didn't tell people that I'd done it before.
AM: So you've actually done it twice then? When you were ninety one, then again this year.
FT: Yes, yes, you've seen pictures-
AM: I was there, Frank. I watched you come down the wire. I did. And er
FT: I came, after, they wanted to film me actually on the wire, this is before I went on, and they were doing this, and then they'd bring me back in again. I said, 'you should have let me go then. People down there that have come to see will think that I've changed my mind, I'm not going'. (Laughs)
AM: But you did it, and you've raised three thousand pounds. And I do have a picture, which I'll put with the tape.
FT: You, you you've got picture, have you?
AM: I've got pictures, yeah, I think we'll call it quits now, Frank, because you've been talking for an hour, so thank you very much.
FT: What a line-shoot, eh?
AM: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frank Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Tolley was born in 1921 in Tipton and left school at fourteen to work as an errand boy for a grocer. He joined the Royal Air Force at nineteen as a ground gunner, and was in at the inception of the Royal Air Force Regiment. After eighteen months he volunteered to become an air gunner, but instead was selected for pilot, navigator and bomb aimer training. After his initial training at Scarborough, he went to Carlisle to fly Tiger Moths, but didn't solo. He went to Canada to train as a bomb aimer, then came back to Moreton in the Marsh for more training before joining 625 Squadron at Kelstern. He describes some bombing operations and deploying Window. He completed 26 operations. After the war he went into sales in the north west, where his wife had come from. At the time of interview he volunteers at the Imperial War Museum North, and has raised money making two zip-wire jumps across the Manchester Ship Canal.
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-02
Contributor
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Peter Adams
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal
Format
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01:06:43 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATolleyF150702
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dresden
625 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
fear
final resting place
ground personnel
H2S
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
RAF Kelstern
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/609/8878/PMcNamaraL1502.2.jpg
1a52a0cc7a6a6bd8198d87fbb16b0d28
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/609/8878/AMcNamara150722.1.mp3
d96debe0280ffed1ce08c4e80939bcf2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McNamara, Len
L McNamara
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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McNamara, L
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Len McNamara (1924 - 2020, 1814123, 185344 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 10 and 75 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-22
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Ok,so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Len McNamara. And the interview is taking place at Len McNamara's home, in Southport, on the twenty second of July two thousand and fifteen. So Len, if you would just tell me a little bit about your childhood, background, and then how you came to join the RAF.
LM: I was born in Bristol in nineteen twenty four. My father was a chef, or cook as they called them in those days, and he worked at Fishponds, Bristol Mental Hospital, which is at Fishponds, on a very huge estate there, and my mother was a mental nurse. I was the eldest of three boys, I had a normal Elementary School education, went to night school, and when I was, left school at fourteen I was an apprentice plumber. Joined, as most lads I was associated with, joined the Air Training Corps, which had a very strong following in Bristol, and after going through, suffering, seeing the bombing of my home town, Bristol, I decided, if I could, I would like to join the Air Force, and be a member of the bomber squadrons. In December nineteen forty three I volunteered for air crew, and I went down to Euston House in London on a three day selection board, and was selected for air crew, and was told I would be called up later. Um, in March nineteen forty three, on the twenty first, the day I was exactly eighteen and a half years old, I reported to Lords Cricket Ground ACR-
AM: (interrupting) Nineteen forty four.
LM: Nineteen forty three.
AM: Forty three or forty four?
LM: Forty three.
AM: Ok.
LM: Um, after spending about three weeks in London, Earls Court Road, being kitted out and doing elementary field programmes, I went up to Bridlington to Air Gunners ITW. The course up there lasted approximately six weeks, and from there I went down to (pause) um, Elementary Gunnery School which was at Bridgenorth. Actually, did nothing at all there, cos they were just setting it all up and it was just hangers. From there I went to number one ATS at Pembrey, in Wales, did my gunnery course, and we were flying on, doing the gunnery on Blenheims, with Lysanders towing the drogues.
AM: So you, you were shooting at drogues.
LM: Yes, shooting at drogues. I passed out and was presented with merit honours in August of forty three, and from there I went to 10 OTU at Abingdon. At Abingdon it was crewed up, the skipper being Pete Catterswife, who was a Canyan, navigator was a-, from Taunton, and the wireless operator air gunner was an Australian, Bob Wright, and I can't think of anybody else who was crew at that time.
AM: How did you get together? Who approached who?
LM: We just all went into just a big room, and all I remember is being introduced to the crew. I don't know whether it was the navigator, or what, because (unclear), and he was West country, from Taunton. It could have been that. Anyhow, we crewed up there, that's right, navigator (pause), oh, and the bomb aimer, who was an ex Glasgow policeman, Bob McLuer. And I think we spent about two to three weeks at Abingdon, flying on Whitleys, and once the crew, skipper was solo on the Whitleys, we then went out to the satellite airfield at Stanton air, air, Stanton Harcourt. On completion of the OTU we then went up to Marston Moor, and did our conversion on to Halifax. Then they were flying Haliax ll's, which weren't all that clever, but nevertheless, the Halifax was a very well built aircraft, and more crew comfort than some of the others. On completion of the course at Marston Moor, we then went to Driffield on an escape and evasion course. I think it was about two weeks there, doing all sorts of things, getting over barbed wire, crawling through ditches, you name it, and we finished up with an escape and evasion exercise where we were dropped off in pairs on the North Yorkshire Moors, and then had to find our way back to Driffield. One, two of the Australians had a good experience, they got as far as (pause) oh, seaside town. Scarborough.
AM: Scarborough.
LM: And they found an army vehicle which was unattended, and drove back in that. I think the outcome was that it was some army Major's transport. Anyhow, they did that. And we, some of us got to Norton. We jumped on the train there, and when it got, not to Driffield station, to one of the minor stations before, we got out the wrong side and back in to Driffield without being stopped or caught. Um, after doing this escape and evasion, we were posted to the Shiny Ten Squadron in January nineteen forty four at Melbourne, just outside York. There were several crews went there, and we did two mine laying operations from Melbourne. On one of them the aircraft was shot up a bit by ack-ack, but the only comment was 'several holes in the aircraft, no member of crew hurt' (chuckles). From there, one five eight at Lissett were converting to the Halifax lll's, and also they'd lost one flight, C Flight, which went to Leconfield to form another squadron. So there were four of us, new crews of us at Shiny Ten who were then posted to Lissett. And we went there, and were on B Flight. Lissett was a very happy station. Everybody was very sociable, and a good atmosphere all round. While there I was having sinus problems, so I went up to the hospital at North Allerton, and had to go and have a minor sinus operation. As a result of that I was limited to flying below ten thousand feet. At that time I, with my own crew, had completed seven ops, and because of my sinus problems I was grounded from flying on operations, so they had a spare gunner in my place. On one of those trips to Tournai on (unclear) they got shot down. Three of the crew bailed out, the navigator and the flight engineer became prisoners of war. The rear gunner who had taken my place as a spare, he bailed out, but his chute failed to open, and he was found in a lady's, in France, in a lady's back garden, and his chute pack with him unopened. So it was quite a shock for the lady concerned. I have visited where the crew crashed, and also where everybody was found. I went with my son, er two of my sons and a grandson, and we found the local mayor was very cooperative, and showed us everything they could. The crew, the other ones who didn't survive, are buried in a small plot by the War Graves Commission in Meharicourt, and I have made a few visits there. There are quite a few members of 158 buried there, also the famous air gunner VC, Jan Mynarwski is buried there. From then I spent the rest of my time at Lissett as a spare gunner. Fortunately I was in the position of, I did fly with some crews for quite a period. One was Ted Strange. His air gunner, rear gunner had appendicitis, so I flew with them on their last seven ops, and they were a very fine crew, and I got on very well. I then was crewed up with Sam Weller, B Flight commander. Trips with him were few and far between, but I did, I then was crewed up with another Australian crew, and I did their last six ops with them. I did a couple of odd spare trips, and, but very quiet time really. I did fly with one crew, Canadian crew, which I wasn't happy with, and when I got back I said to the (unclear) that I didn't wish to fly with them any more because there was too much talking, and not enough attention paid to the job in hand. He assured me I wouldn't fly with them any more, and I didn't, and tragically, they did lose their lives on an operation not long after. In the October of, correction, in September of forty four I was then crewed up with a Canadian crew, and I flew with them for my last trips, my remaining trips of (unclear). I did, I think it was five or six with them, and then one day we came back form a daylight raid on Cologne, on thirtieth October, that was, and the Wing Commander, Wing Commander Dobson, came out to meet me, and said, 'congratulations, you've finished your tour now, and your commission is through'. The crew only had about three more ops to do to finish their tour, and I said, 'oh, I'll stay with you if you want', and the Wing Commander said, 'you've had enough, done enough. You've had nine months continuous operational flying, you've done your share, you're going to have a rest'.
AM: So that was that.
LM: From then I was posted to Langar, just outside Nottingham, as an instructor. Wasn't enjoying that very much , and a call went out for two second tour gunners, and Tony Dunster was an ex 4 Group gunner like myself, on Halifax's, we were posted, he volunteered, and we went down to Wolfarts Lodge to crew up, and we crewed up, the crew we crewed up with, the skipper was on his second tour, he was a New Zealander, and the rest of the crew, the wireless operator, the bomb aimer and the navigator, and flight engineer, had all been together on their first tour, flying Stirlings, as had the captain. And, I must admit, none of us were very enthusiastic about the Lancaster. Those of us on Halifax's said that the Lanc was a Woolworth's effort, and the Halifax was the Marks and Spencers, In all honesty, the Halifax was more favourable to the crews. It was easier to get around in, and easier to get out of in an emergency. Neither the Stirling boys, nor Tony and I liked the Lancasters at all. One incident we had with the Lancaster, was we were down at, way down in, er, Germany, I can't remember the target at the moment, this conversation, but it was way down, oh, Magdeberg, it was, and we were just doing the run in on the target, and we had an engine go up in flames. Nothing to do with any enemy action, it's just we had a glycol leak which caused a fire in the engine, and the engine couldn't be, it wouldn't feather, so we went all the way back to base with an engine, a prop just windmilling, and got back an hour after everybody else.
AM: Safely, though.
LM: Safely. One of the best jobs we ever did was the Manna Operations to Holland, dropping food. We loaded our crews ourselves, they had like a hammock in the bomb bay, and we loaded everything there, then we went over and dropped the food. And that was the most, the best thing we ever did.
AM: How many drops did you do on Operation Manna?
LM: Two.
AM: You did two.
LM: Yes
AM: How low were you flying?
LM: Oh, practically ground level. It was amazing because (pause)
AM: Could you actually see the people?
LM: Oh yes. As you were flying over there were people in their boats, and that, waving like mad to you, and some of them waving that enthusiastically they could tip over, but it was really fantastic to see it, and doing it.
AM: As a contrast to what you were doing before.
LM: Oh yes. Before, I mean before it was a question of destruction, but this question was saving lives. So, and (pause)
AM: Going back to the destruction, if you like, what, what, what did it actually feel like for you, there in the, as a, you were a rear gunner?
LM: Yeah, rear gunner. Well, actually it's amazing because being the rear gunner you never saw what you were going in to, you only saw it as you were coming out of it. And I was one of the gunners, there was loads of us, we never looked for trouble. Some, you had some people were gung-ho, drawing attention to themselves, but I was always taught, and others did, never draw attention to yourself. Just sit there quietly watching, and keeping your eyes open.
AM: Did you actually ever use the gun?
LM: Never.
AM: Never?
LM: No. I seen them, but you, just you sit there quietly, keeping an eye on what-
AM: But you could have done if you'd had to.
LM: Oh yeah.
AM: And what was it like in the suit, when you were all plugged in? Were you always warm, because it was really cold, wasn't it?
LM: Yes, but I really enjoyed it in the rear turret. You were in a world of your own there, you were your own companion. The only thing, it did get very cold, but then we had electric suits, and something we could never understand, ICW at Bridlington, you had to strip a Browning down, blindfolded. It's all laughable when you think of it, because in the turret it was minus forty, if you'd touched any metal you'd have frostbite, so why did we have to do all that?
AM: But you could, if you had to? With gloves on.
LM: Yes, if you had to. (laughs) But that was er-
AM: What, what do you think about the bombing now? You know, in retrospect.
LM: Well, it's more accurate, isn't it. I mean, you've got all the aids.
AM: No, sorry. I mean about when, when you were actually doing the bombing, dropping the bombs , what, what do you think about that now, in thinking about-
LM: I, I've still no regrets about it at all. Having lived and seen my own city destroyed, with no problems at all. And all I can say, it's like people are on about it all, what all the fuss and bother's about. There has been a book written since then, which I have. Written, I forget the name of the author, but he had, once the Communists had gone from Eastern Germany, and all the records came out, there was a lot going on there, all the equipment for submarines being manufactured there, it was a big staging post for the Eastern Front. There was loads of military there, and we were quite justified. I don't know what, all this outcry afterwards. It's easy to be wise after the event.
AM: And you got the DFC?
LM: Yeah, yeah.
AM: For the number of tours.
LM: Gary has got a letter that shows-
AM: Has he?
LM: Yeah. But there were, I mean, I had, I know I flew with numerous crews, but with the exception of the odd one or two, I was fortunate, I flew with very good, well experienced crews, and some of them had had an horrendous time. In fact, er, can we have just a (unclear).
AM: Yes, of course. (rustling noises)
LM: When Douggie Bancroft, Flying Officer Bancroft, who I did quite a few, they, they got badly shot up, and they landed at Hurn Airport, in, er, outside Bournemouth, and nobody ever understood how they managed to get the aircraft back there. In fact the instrument panel is in Canberra, in a museum in Australia, from that aircraft, and obviously the crew that survived, er two of the crew, they never found, never found their bodies. They reckon they must have fallen through the hole in the aircraft where it was badly burnt. And they all got immediate awards, DFMs and DFCs. They thoroughly deserved it. But they were a fantastic crew that I had the privilege to fly with for the remainder, the rest of their tour.
AM: Yes. So, I'm looking at all the different ones. So you had a Kenyan pilot, Canadian pilots, Australian pilots, New Zealand pilots, English pilot. You went through the lot.
LM: Yes, yes. I was lucky.
AM: Any difference? What were the differences of the nationalities? Other than the obvious ones about language.
LM: Yeah, there isn't no difference at all. They were all first class captains. Very happy crews, and, you can't explain the comradeship with your crew. You were closer than you were with your own brothers. I suppose the reason, you depended on each other for your lives. We had a good social life together, and that's it.
AM: Did you get down to Bridlington, from Lissett?
LM: Yeah, yeah. I've walked back from there many a time.
AM: You've walked? From Bridlington to Lissett?
LM: (laughs)
AM: How far's that?
LM: About eight miles. Eight, ten miles. Yep. Come back many a night in the crew bus, not on the seat, but on the floor (laughs).
AM: You enjoyed it, then?
LM: Oh yes. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
AM: And then, as, after that, you ended up with 75 squadron?
LM: Yeah.
AM: And then, I'm just looking at a sheet of paper here than Len has given me with all his pilots on. So, 75 New Zealand squadron, you were there 'til the end of the European war.
LM: Yes. Yes.
AM: So what was it like at the end, then? What was your last tour? Were they Operation Manna? Er, not tour, sorry, your last operation.
LM: I don't know.
AM: Because the Operation Manna ones would have been, May forty four?
LM: They were May time, weren't they. Because the war finished, I think it was in May. It was May, wasn't it?
AM: Yeah.
LM: I know because everything went mad on seven five squadron at Mepal, but (pause) that was fantastic, because when we come back off leave from seventy five New Zealand, all of us crew, we all used to come back, meet up in London, before coming back to Mepal, and have a night in London. But we used to go to Mepal village. Lovely, all the Kiwis getting to do their war dance in the bar. It was great.
AM: So what was it like at the end, then? What, how did it, for you, how did it end?
LM: It was just like a, really a bit of a let down. I thought we weren't treated very good. I know the New Zealanders were going to go out on, I forget what they call it, they were going to go out to India, and that. They went to Scampton, all the Kiwis, and all the English people, we were shipped up to Snaith, in Yorkshire, just to be selected to ground jobs, and I finished up at Ringway, on the parachute school, to initially, to be instructor. But I thought, 'no thank you'.
AM: No? You hadn't enjoyed it the first time round.
LM: So that was that.
AM: So what did you do.
LM: I can't, I'm trying to think, 'what did I do?' (Pause) Oh, yeah. I finished up, from there I went out to India, that's right, went out to Karachi, and we did nothing. Christmas, it was. Christmas of forty four, that's right. Arrived in Karachi, and there's four of us in a tent there, and we were just doing nothing. We used to go in to Kara-, it was Mauripur Airport. We used to go in to Karachi, and there was a club there, and that. We used to go in gharrys as they called them, the horse drawn taxi there, and we were told not to say anything as they went through some areas, let the driver sort I out, and that was that. But-
AM: How long were you there for? Was that forty four or forty five?
LM: That was forty four.
AM: Forty four. So that was before the Operation Manna, then?
LM: No, it was after everything.
AM: Oh, ok.
LM: Let's see. (pause) The war finished, I finished my tour and ops in October forty four, no, this was forty five, of course it was.
AM: So it was forty five.
LM: Forty five.
AM: I'm just trying to get my chronology right.
LM: No, forty five, it was. We went out to there, and then from there we went across to Ceylon, and then we went up to Kandy.
AM: What were you actually doing?
LM: Nothing!
AM: Oh, right.
LM: We were just shipped out the way. And we finished up at Kandy with a few more bomber, ex Bomber Command people, and then they decided to give us a three months Officers admin course. (chuckles) And then at the end of that we were shipped out to Singapore, we went on the Cape Town Castle, it was. Yeah. From Ceylon to Singapore, and I finished up on the embarkation unit there, working. But my sinus problems came out again, and I went in the hospital there. And the hospital was at Changi, which used to be, as I understand it, was a mental hospital, and of course all the Japanese were in (unclear) all around the beds, cleaning and that. And then I was sent home from there, repatriated.
AM: How did you get home?
LM: They flew me home.
AM: On what?
LM: A York. Flew me home, in stages, you know staging all the way through. Landed at Lyneham. Where did I go after that? Oh, then, (pause) that's right when I got back (pause), I missed that out, yeah, we went through Compton Bassett, and we did a code and cypher course, and we were all told when we went there, irrespective of what happens, you will pass the course, and we weren't, we were allowed to go to the Officer's Mess to collect our mail, and we had to pay the Officer's Mess bill, but all they did, they curtained part of the airman's dining hall off, and gave us that as a lounge with a field telephone to the Officer's Mess if you wanted any drinks. Obviously we never bothered, we always used to go into the local (unclear) and that. I'd forgotten about that, it'd all gone.
AM: I'm dragging it all back out.
LM: Yeah, I forgot all about that. 'Cos we, we went there before we went out to Ceylon, er, out to Karachi, and that.
AM: To go to Ceylon, and Karachi, and Singapore, to do nothing, just-. How many of you?
LM: Oh, there must have been hundreds of us. We were treated like dirt, at the end of the war, irrespective of your rank. We were just shipped out there out the road, out the way. The Navy got rid of all their surplus air crew. The RAF hung on to all of us.
AM: Why do you think they did?
LM: I don't know. I mean, I, because I'm a number, a (unclear) a number, I wasn't demobbed until forty seven. May forty seven.
AM: Could you have been, if you'd have wanted to go earlier?
LM: No. We weren't given the choice. We were all just shipped out, well we all thought personally we were just pushed out the way. They didn't know what to do with us.
AM: Was that RAF in general, or just Bomber Command?
LM: Well, I don't know, it was RAF, to do with RAF, not Bomber Command.
AM: They were still paying you?
LM: Oh yeah, yeah, but it was disgusting. That's right, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's right, I went-
AM: Seems a long way to go to do nothing.
LM: Well, it was, I mean, finished up at, in fact, the Officers Mess, embarkation Officer's Mess was out, Karikal House it was, and it was out by number ten dock gate, and in a beautiful big house and grounds. And a Japanese Admiral died there earlier, he's buried in the grounds of this big Karikal House, beautiful, and huge grounds. But, er, but, it's like the food we had there, it was all dehydrated stuff. And chicken, we used to see them coming in crates.
AM: And then they had to sort of wet it to cook it?
LM: Oh yeah. But, it was horrible.
AM: So what happened when you were eventually demobbed?
LM: I went, I was, we went up, I forget where it was, it was up Lancashire way somewhere, and just went up. A nights stop there. And just give the uniform in, and the suit, and that was it. It's a big laugh, because, because of the weather back here, there was a shortage of vegetables, and that, no potatoes, and all that jazz, but, I can't even remember the name of the camp where we were, when we were demobbed. Somewhere in the Lancashire area, I don't know where it was.
AM: What did you do afterwards, Len?
LM: I went back to finish my apprenticeship. I went back to finish my apprenticeship in plumbing. What happened, you went back and finished it, and you got full tradesman's rate, but the firm was compensated by the government for that. Got my indentures, and that was that. And then, I got fed up. I wished I hadn't of come out. The reason I come out was we were going to get married, and my wife wasn't keen on the service life, as she thought. So, I come out, and I thought, 'I'm fed up with this, I want to go back in'. So I went and they said, 'oh, you'll have to come back in as an airman, because your commission’s gone'. And I thought alright, I'll come back in the air traffic control branch.
AM: So this was after you'd finished your plumbing apprenticeship.
LM: Oh, yes. I was working as a tradesman.
AM: So you worked as a plumber?
LM: Yes, but I was getting fed up with it, and I was missing service life, and I wanted to get back into it. And the pity of it is, once I got back in, with the travel you did, and that, my wife thoroughly enjoyed it.
AM: Where did you meet your wife?
LM: Oh, I met, during the war we were at Bristol, we went out to Bath in the building business, working on bomb damage repairs, and we were doing work, just at the bottom of the road (unclear), and we were working on it, and that's how I come to meet her. She was fifteen and I was seventeen then.
AM: So that was before the RAF, even? You met her before you joined?
LM: Oh, yeah, oh yeah.
AM: And when did you get married? What year did you get married?
LM: Got married in forty seven, June forty seven. We were engaged, and that was that. Well, after I come out, I come out in May forty seven, and we got married in the June.
AM: When you went back in, then, so you did your plumbing, and then you went back in to the RAF, what did you do? What sort of things did you do?
LM: Air traffic control.
AM: You were in air traffic control.
LM: Yeah, air traffic control, straight on. And it was fantastic. Everybody was so kind to me. Don't matter what rank, station commanders, it was just what ribbons I had, and I was better treated then than we were at the end of the war, at Compton Bassett, and places like that. Because they were all wingless wonders there.
AM: So how long were you in air traffic control for? (pause) Ish.
LM: Oh, from fifty three to seventy one.
AM: Oh, right through.
LM: Yeah, I enjoyed it. Lovely. Yes, I trained on GC, ground control approach as a director, what they call a director, on that, and then became a local controller.
AM: Which airport were you based at?
LM: I was at, down at (pause) down at (pause), oh I can't think, it's where all the helicopters are down south, Chinooks and all that, I'll soon tell you.
AM: It's gone.
LM: Odiham! I was just going to pick the tankard up, because when I left there they presented me with a tankard. I was at Odiham, and, oh, that's right, because while we were at Odiham we had a mobile x-ray that come round, and they found Renee had TB. So she went into a sanatorium that way, and they transferred her to one outside Bath. Of course, we had young children, and mother, not, two of my sister in laws lived in Bath, one had the two girls, we had two girls then, and then there was two boys, and mother had the two boys in Bath. So I was then posted to, I'd been at Chivenor, that's right, I'd gone from Chivenor up to Colerne outside Bath, so that's it, they moved me to Colerne on compassionate grounds, because my children were in Bath, and they did that. And then from Colerne, when everything was, my wife was back and that, went up to Dishforth. Dishforth, Dishforth out to Germany, Wildenrath in Germany. So that was that. That's where I, and then I come home from Wildenrath in Germany, and, where did I go? Trying to think. (long pause). Oh God, no, I can't remember where I was when I came home.
AM: Oh well, it doesn't matter. What was it like being back in Germany?
LM: It was lovely. I was at Wildenrath, and the Dutch people we used to go on a roam on, and the German people were alright. In fact, on Wildenrath they had what they called GSO, German Service, and oh they were using what they had, huts and that, as married quarters. It was great. I enjoyed it. I can't think where I was. Oh, of course I was, I was down at Halton when I finished. Yeah, that's right, I went to Halton. I was the sole, all they had a Halton was a grass airfield, and Chipmonks for air experience for the cadets, you know, the apprentices, and I was the sole controller there. It was lovely. Had a fantastic time there.
AM: Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. That was really interesting.
LM: Sorry I couldn't remember names going through.
AM: Oh, don't you worry about that.
LM: But they're all down there, and Gary's got a copy of the recommendation for the DFC.
AM: Thanks, Len. I'll make sure we take a copy of that, then.
LM: Oh, I think I've got another spare copy.
AM: We'll find one. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Len McNamara
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-22
Format
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00:40:20 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcNamara150722
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Royal Canadian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Len McNamara was born in Bristol in 1924. An apprentice plumber, he joined the Air Training Corps and volunteered for aircrew. Discusses his initial training at various stations, the gunnery course he passed with merit and honours, an escape and evasion course he attended, and crewing up with Pete Catterswife, a Kenyan. He flew Whitleys and then then converting to Halifaxes. Len was posted to 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne. He discusses mine laying and bombing operations, aircraft damage, social and service life at RAF Lisset, military ethos and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After sinus problems, he was a reserve gunner going on operations with various aircrews. Len was posted to RAf Langar as an instructor, but volunteered as second tour gunners and was posted to RAF Woolfox Lodge to crew up with a New Zealand pilot on Lancasters. Discusses engine problems, Kenyan, Canadian Australian, New Zealand and English pilots, talks about Operation Manna and discusses 75 New Zealand Squadron. At the end of the war he finished up at RAF Ringway as parachute instructor.
Len was then posted to various locations abroad, did a code and cipher course and was demobilised. He went back to his plumbing apprenticeship, got married, settled in Bath but wanted to get back to service life. He started back as an airman and went into the air traffic control branch serving at different stations in Great Britain and Germany until he retired in 1971. Len was into post war meetings and memorial visits.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Cheshire
England--Rutland
Sri Lanka
Singapore
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
10 Squadron
75 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
escaping
evading
final resting place
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Abingdon
RAF Langar
RAF Lissett
RAF Melbourne
RAF Ringway
RAF Woolfox Lodge
recruitment
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1111/11601/ASaundersJ170609.1.mp3
9eb6de7875d7e6d31dad307ae215e888
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Simon, Francis William
Frank Simon
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Jillian Saunders about her father, Francis William Simon (b. 1917, 2211910 Royal Air Force), his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 153 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jillian Saunders and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, some items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Simon, FW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right. I’m just going to pop that there but just ignore it. So, today it’s Friday the 9th of June. The day after the election 2017. And this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m with Jill Saunders today and we’re at Jill’s home at [ buzz ] Whiston, in Rotherham. And Jill’s going to talk to me about her mum and dad and their experiences during the bomber war. But then we’ll also come on and talk a little bit about Jill’s experiences since with regards 153 Squadron and also with regards to research into a specific plane. So I’m going to start off, if that’s ok Jill just to ask you a little bit about what you know and what you can remember about your mum and dad’s childhood. Perhaps we’ll start with your dad first. How old would he, can, can you remember what year he was born?
JS: He was born, he’d have been, he’ll be a hundred in, next month.
AM: Ok.
JS: So he was born in 1917.
AM: Right. Ok. So just towards the end of the First World War then.
JS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: Where was he born?
JS: He was born in Salford. His mother died when he was twelve. And his father died about eighteen months later.
AM: Right.
JS: Of a heart, of, well no. His mother died, she’d had an operation for, to have her tonsils out and they left a swab in and she got septicaemia and she died. Which he never got over. And his father I’m not supposed to know it but he was found hanging in the outside loo about eighteen months later.
AM: Right.
JS: So my father was actually brought up by his much older sister, Margaret who he idolised. She was his mum virtually.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And he lived with her until after the war. Until he got married.
AM: Did he have brothers and sisters?
JS: No. No. No, he didn’t.
AM: No. So did Margaret.
JS: Well he had his sister. Margaret was his sister who brought him up.
AM: Of course.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But you said she was considerably older than him.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That’s alright.
AM: I’m thinking aunt rather than sister there.
JS: Her son, Les died last year, in fact. He was eighty. He was my cousin obviously and he thought the world of his Uncle Frank and Auntie Peggy. And told me once how, I think it would be in November ’44 he’d be about ten or eleven, something like that. He went to school one day. They were preparing for the Christmas concert and they needed some gold paint for something so the teacher said, ‘Anybody got any gold paint?’ So he said, ‘I’ve got some at home, sir.’ ‘Go home and get it then.’ And when he got home his mum, that’s my dad’s sister Margaret was there making tea and toast for a full seven aircrew who were all sitting around on the living room floor. So, young Les walked in and sort of wow. And they made a fuss of him and he had some tea and toast. And it was the naughtiest thing Les ever did in his life. He didn’t go back to school. They took him to Bellevue for the afternoon.
AM: The zoo.
JS: Yeah. And funfare as it was in those days. And he thought that was great fun. And you know they all made much of him and he remembered my dad and all his crew until the day he died which was last year.
AM: Yeah. It just shows you doesn’t it? So did your dad go to school in Salford?
JS: Dad went to school in Salford. Yes. He was Salford born and bred. Proud to be a Salfordian. And started work. He got an apprenticeship as a fitter.
AM: So, did he leave school at fourteen or —
JS: I don’t know what age he would be.
AM: No. Because it was usually the fourteen for school certificate.
JS: Something like that. He was bright though. Totally wasted. And he was a brilliant engineer. And I think he served his time at Reynold’s. Reynold Chain. That was in Trafford Park, I think in those days. In fact, he worked at the time with Harold Goodwin the actor who was in a lot of war films including, ‘Bridge over the River Kwai.” Little man. He was in quite a lot of war films. And every time one of these films came on TV my dad would go off. ‘There he is the little so and so.’ He was a conshy. He wouldn’t go in the war.
AM: Ok.
JS: But he made all these films afterwards which really wound my father up.
AM: I can imagine.
JS: So, yeah. So he, as I say he served his time as a fitter. In his latter years he was such a good engineer his nickname was Two Thou Frank because everything had to be done to two thousandth of an inch or less. He was just meticulous with everything. The paperwork. You know. He drove me mad with my homework. You know. I had to underline my answers and it had to be neat. He was just that sort of guy really.
AM: So what, so if he started work and apprenticeship.
JS: Yeah.
AM: As a fitter.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What year would that be then? ‘Ish?
JS: I don’t know.
AM: Or am I, obviously pre-war.
JS: It’s pre-war. Yeah. And I know he was a Volunteer Reserve.
AM: Right. So, so this is when?
JS: Because I’ve got his little VR badge. And I think he moved onto AV Roe’s working there and was classed as Reserved Occupation.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, he was actually older and later joining the fray.
AM: Right.
JS: Than most his contemporaries —
AM: So he actually worked at AV Roe as an, as and engine, a fitter.
JS: Which is where, where he met my mum.
AM: An engineer. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And he finally got his call up papers and kept for years his one way ticket. His rail ticket. Which —
AM: Yeah.
JS: I threw it out of course. He called it his one way ticket. So, yeah. So then he, he trained for the, they wanted him, they were short of engineers in the RAF and it was the obvious place for him to go really. He trained at St Athan as most of them did. Then he, I’ve got his logbook there. He went through various places but ended up in 166 Squadron at Kirmington.
AM: Ok.
JS: And then in October ’44 he’d crewed up with six Australians at Kirmington.
AM: Right.
JS: Formed a crew, and they were sent down to Scampton to form 153 Squadron with a number of other crews.
AM: Did he tell you anything about the crewing up process? And how they, how that particular —
JS: Yeah. He didn’t, he didn’t but the two guys in his crew that I spoke to and that I met in 2006 did in that they were all just more or less shut in to a room and said form yourselves into a crew. Now, I don’t know whether my dad picked them or they picked him but he ended up in an all Australian crew apart from himself.
AM: I think that was what was in my mind. How did he end up with six Australians then?
JS: Whether the six of them had got together and we need an engineer he’s the only one left. I have no idea. I don’t know who would. Whether the skipper picked them all or who knows.
AM: We’ll never know.
JS: No. No.
AM: But from there they would have gone on to —
JS: So they started ops, I think late October ’44.
AM: They would have gone to Heavy Conversion Unit.
JS: They did that before. He did that before.
AM: Ok. So then the crew.
JS: If you, if you can stop that I’ll go and get his logbook and —
AM: We’ll have a look at that afterwards.
JS: Yeah. Alright.
AM: Oh, well hang on. So what I’ve got here in my hand is a copy of Jill’s dad’s logbook. Jill’s got the actual logbook. And once they’d crewed up and were actually ready to start operations they moved from 166 Squadron to 153 Squadron. Jill, have you any idea why? Why did they move squadrons?
JS: They were just for, as far as I’m aware they were just actually forming a new squadron, 153.
AM: Right.
JS: And I, I don’t know that it was only 166 that was sent there or whether there was others sent there as well to make up the squadron. I could find that out for you. I only need a phone call to Bill Thomas and he would tell me.
AM: Yeah. No. It’s just interesting.
JS: Yeah.
AM: To wonder. Because obviously I’m looking. I’m looking at [pause] I saw the training and the familiarisation. The circuits and landings. All the rest of it. The night bomber. Fighter affiliation. Diversion and bullseye. Almost all with Pilot Officer Mettam.
JS: Yeah.
AM: As the pilot. But for some of them, and we’re in Halifaxes at this point as well. So, Pilot Officer Mettam. Was he one of the Australians then that became the —
JS: Yes.
AM: The final crew.
JS: He was his pilot.
AM: Right. Ok.
JS: Right the way through.
AM: Yeah.
[pause]
AM: So what we’re looking at now is that in —
JS: Also had to do dual and solo. The flight engineer had to be able to fly.
AM: Right. Yeah.
JS: Himself.
AM: Yeah.
JS: In case anything happened to the skipper, of course.
AM: So then in September 1944 when the training had finished that was when they moved the following month in October ’44 to 153 Squadron. So he was based —
JS: At Scampton.
AM: At Scampton. And did he, what did he tell you, if anything, did he tell you anything about the operations? Any stories. Any — or just what it was like.
JS: He — no. He only told me about coming back with the full load on. But I subsequently found out a couple of stories from the skipper and tail gunner when I met them. The tail gunner was a real comedian. Apparently, when they all got back and went for their bacon and eggs Ned didn’t. He went straight to the parachute shed to chat the girl’s up who were folding up parachutes. But that was what Ned was like. He said they were coming back, I don’t know whether dad was with them or not at the time, from one op and he said they were on fire. He was in the rear turret and there were sparks and all sorts flying and they were coming down and he could hear them jettisoning fuel, and you know and preparing for a nasty. And he got on his mic and said, ‘Are we baling out, skip?’ And Mettam, in his voice, ‘No. That won’t be necessary,’ And brought it down sweet as a nut. He also, then Mett himself did tell me once they were diverted to Manston. I don’t think it was the one that dad was on because I’m sure he would have told me but he overshot at Manston which is very, not like Mett but the problem being that as he overshot he hit a ploughed field and the furrows instead of going the way he was going went the opposite way. So I said, ‘Well, what happened?’ He said, ‘Well, the nose dug in,’ he said, ‘And it flipped over.’ Completely flipped over from the back end over the front end. I said, ‘What the hell did you do?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We all got out and scratched our heads, looked at it, laughed and hitched a lift back to Scampton.’
AM: What happened to the plane though upside down in the ploughed field?
JS: That’s right. It wasn’t their problem was it? So, yeah, I mean I did found out a little bit from them two. Dad didn’t speak a great deal apart from he did tell me a few times about the time he came back with a full load on and I think that must have really frightened him. Having to land with a full load that they had been trying to get rid of for a few hours.
AM: Did, did he ever say anything about what he saw as the differences between, because looking at it most of the training was done on Halifaxes and then right towards the end of the training in September they went on to Lancasters.
JS: That’s right.
AM: Did he ever talk about the difference between the two?
JS: No. He only ever spoke about Lancasters.
AM: Right.
JS: He never mentioned Halifaxes at all to me. I think like most of them he was in love with the Lancaster and still are.
AM: And that was the one he did all his operations on.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So. So, I’m looking at the logbook and the first operation was to Essen. And then a couple of Colognes. Nights. A fair mix actually. Mainly, mainly night. Mainly night operations. Cologne. Dortmund. Düren. [unclear] Freiburg. And did he ever say anything about the operations. How he felt about them or —
JS: The only thing he did tell me about was having his bacon and egg and them saying, ‘Flying tonight, sir?’ Which when I watched the “Dambusters” film and having eaten in the mess at Scampton I found it very difficult to actually eat in there. To even go through the doorway. It was just, yeah it sent shivers down my spine.
AM: I think you said, so I’m looking at the operations and we’ve, let me just find the right page. I think in total he did —
JS: I think it was nineteen. I think.
AM: Nineteen.
JS: I think it was nineteen.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I’m trying to find out because they were, they were transferred as a crew down to 582 Pathfinders at Little Staughton in January ’45. Dad was admitted to hospital in Ely in February ’45 and mum did tell me that he, he had done an operation in Pathfinders.
AM: Right.
JS: But there’s no record of it anywhere.
AM: No.
JS: And I think that’s perhaps because he was, didn’t get his logbook filled in and was whipped in to hospital quickly.
AM: Right.
JS: I don’t know.
AM: Because, yeah because on the logbook as you say it shows the last one as number eighteen in January ’45 over the Bay of Biscay. And then you said he was ill.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What, what was, what was wrong? What happened?
JS: He took bad with stomach ulcers and in those days if you had a stomach ulcer they cut you vertically from top to bottom and removed all sorts of things. And he suffered for the rest of his life.
AM: Right.
JS: With duodenal ulcers. I mean today you take a course of antibiotics. I did myself only a few months ago.
AM: How long was he in the hospital? You say he was in the hospital in Ely.
JS: Ely.
AM: Yeah.
JS: In Cambridgeshire. Yeah. Because he was taken from — he was taken from Little Staughton which is Cambridgeshire way isn’t it? And I presume Ely was the biggest hospital.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Looking at the photographs of him just after the war and on honeymoon painfully thin and gaunt. It had obviously, the war and the operation had really taken it out of him.
AM: Well, you know it’s a huge operation.
JS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: And he wasn’t tall to start with. Five foot seven and a half I’ve read on his, on his commencement papers.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, obviously then he was that was it he didn’t fly again.
JS: He was. Yes. He then went into, he was made to, made to go in the Home Guard.
AM: Because he left. He was actually discharged in May ’45. So then he went in the Home Guard. Any stories about that?
JS: No. He just found it all very amusing and like little boys playing with sticks over their shoulders. Just like Dad’s Army, in fact.
AM: And he would be quite a bit older than them.
JS: Yes.
AM: Well, older than the young ones.
JS: Of course.
AM: Obviously then there’s old.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Old ones as well.
JS: Yeah. And I think he was one of the few that had actually seen action.
AM: Yeah. He would have been twenty eight by then. Which was actually quite old for a flyer.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: So, tell me a bit about your mum and then let’s come back to your mum and dad together. Tell me a little bit about your mum’s early background and where she was born.
JS: Mum was born in Kendal in the Lake District. A country girl. She was one of nine in a small house up there. Left school reasonably early. She was born in 1920.
AM: If she was one of nine did she ever describe to you, talk to you about what sort of house they lived in?
JS: Oh, my God. Yeah.
AM: Go on. Tell us about that.
JS: I’ve been in there.
AM: Oh, you have.
JS: I have.
AM: Describe it for me then.
JS: Just an ordinary [pause] well they were all grey stone built.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Got to be in grey stone in Kendal. Just an ordinary semi with three bedrooms and a downstairs toilet. They did have an indoor toilet and a little bit of a bathroom downstairs off the kitchen. But very small and there was five boys and four girls. And they all had crazy senses of humour. She’s often told me about how they were all tops and tails in bed and many a night the boys would sneak in when they had just gone to sleep, crawl under their bed and just lift the bed up. Frightened them to death. They, they were all she had one brother who she came in one day, she ran in from the garden because she could hear her sister screaming. And her brother had a roped down on to the kitchen table with a carving knife dangling on a rope wrapped around the light fitting swinging. Lowering it like a [laughs]
AM: As you do.
JS: Yeah. And those were the sort of things. They had to make their own fun.
AM: Well, yeah.
JS: And they sort of tortured each other.
AM: The television. Sitting in front of the television.
JS: That’s right.
AM: Where was she in the age range? Somewhere in the middle? Top or bottom?
JS: She was right in the middle, I think.
AM: In the middle. Right.
JS: In fact, the youngest of them mum always said our Lenny was born, she was on the change when she had him. He was the first to die in actual fact. My mum was the last one to die. She died three years ago. She was ninety four.
AM: So she left school at fourteen.
JS: Yeah. And as you do in Kendal you go to work at the K Shoe Factory which later became Clarks. And she was there with all the girls doing piecework. She did piecework all her life and quite happy.
AM: Describe for the tape what piecework is.
JS: Piecework is, you get paid for, per item. So the more items you do per day the more money you get. So it had a great impact on her life because her idea of doing something well was doing it as fast as she possibly could. She went to the gym which she did in her fifties and sixties it was, ‘I’ve finished,’ in ten minutes flat because she’d just tear around like a lunatic. Everything she did was at break neck pace because she was used to being on piecework. She later went on, she carried on for the rest of her life as a machinist. And worked for a number of years making nurses uniforms.
AM: It’s just piecework’s not a phrase you would hear now.
JS: No. No.
AM: And of course —
JS: I don’t know what they’d call it now.
AM: When you said she did piecework.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. It was the only thing.
AM: So, so back to she worked at —
JS: Yeah.
AM: The K Factory.
JS: She worked at Ks. And then the war broke out so she would be about nineteen. Nineteen and a bit. They were obviously stopped from making shoes into more useful footwear and she ended up on flying boots for the RAF. And she told me how as the flying boots went along the production line and they all did their little bit to them and all the girls to relieve the boredom and because they felt they had to, no. They wanted to. Slipped little notes in the boots as they went along in front of them. Little slips of paper. You know, “God bless the RAF.” “Good luck.” “Stay safe.” All that sort of thing.
AM: Nowadays it would be have my mobile number.
JS: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So then after a while there she was all her brothers and sisters were doing their bit in various places, she was sent down to Manchester to work in the munitions factory in Trafford Park. And while she —
AM: Did she have a choice of what war work she did?
JS: No. No. She was just —
AM: Quite the opposite. That’s where she was sent.
JS: She got a notice that’s where she was going and that’s where she went. And then once she was sent there of course there was a little bit of room left in the home where she was brought up so her mother, my grandma then had to take in evacuee children. She had two little boys. One didn’t last too long. And then the second one was from the North East. A pale sickly child and of course nice fresh air and good food as far as, well to what he’d been used to his parents came to visit him and didn’t recognise him. So, yeah mum’s now in, I think it was AV Roe she was in. It was, she was making parts for Lancaster bombers and she was doing something with a bit of metal. I don’t know what it was and in came a load of airmen and dad was amongst them. They were obviously all engineers. As part of the training learning how it was all put together and their eyes met over, I don’t know whether it was a lathe or something like that and that was that. they started going out together. And they got engaged. He sent her money to go and get a second hand ring somewhere. He wouldn’t get married until after the war. She used to go home at weekends, I think. Now and again. And her sister, my auntie did tell me that whenever she saw dad by this time was on ops and whenever she got up in the morning and read the newspaper and it said a thousand bomber raid over so and so again last night. Apparently, the colour just drained from her face and she wouldn’t eat her breakfast and couldn’t do anything. And they all left her alone until she got a telegram because dad always sent her a telegram when he, as soon as he got back. After he’d his bacon and eggs I suspect. And as soon as she got the telegram she was alright. But he wouldn’t get married ‘til the war was over. And his war was over when he got [pause] well when he came back of the Home Guard I suppose after he’d been discharged from the RAF.
AM: You were telling me some stories about your mum. So when she’d moved to Trafford and was working at the AV Roe factory obviously she would end up in digs.
JS: Oh yes. That was the only thing she would ever spoke about. I mean she never spoke about the work or the girls or anything. It was just the horrible digs she was put in and there and it was bed bugs and fleas and it was filthy dirty and icy cold. And she couldn’t wait to go home at weekends. She hated it and she was lonely and she was a very timid soul. A very nervous person. You know to be taken from her nice comfortable country existence like that to be sent to a big city to have to do that and put up with all the bombing and everything else. I remember when it was D-Day she said, she said they knew it was brewing and that morning she said all through the night they’d heard aircraft going over. She said it was just a constant drone all night long and they knew that something was, was happening. And that morning the hooter went in the factory, Everybody to the canteen,’ and they all lined up in the canteen and the guy said to them, ‘Let’s just say a prayer for the lads. This is it. This is D-Day,’ and she said they all just you know had a few minutes for the, for the boys.
AM: Sorry that gulp was me sipping water. So then obviously you said he sent this telegram every time he got back.
JS: Every time. Yeah.
AM: From ops. I’m just trying to piece together in my mind so she’s still there working when he was in hospital in Ely as well.
JS: Yes. She must have been.
AM: She must have been, mustn’t she?
JS: She must have been. Yeah.
AM: And then come the end of the war he’s in the Home Guard.
JS: Yes.
AM: Well, not the end. From his discharge which was in May ’45.
JS: Yes. He went into the Home Guard.
AM: He’s in the Home Guard.
JS: In the Manchester area again, I presume. I don’t know for sure but I presume it was in his home town. I think it was in Salford.
AM: And she would still be in Trafford Park or would she have moved back up to Kendal.
JS: I have no idea when she moved back. I’ve no idea.
AM: But obviously they’d got engaged by then so —
JS: It was all go then. Yeah.
AM: So when did they get married? ‘ish?
JS: Well, I was born in ’49 and I think they’d been married two to three years before they had me. 18th of April err 27th of April.
AM: Where did they end up living?
JS: She moved down to Salford to be with him. They moved in a, oh it was an awful house. I can remember it even as a kid. It was four back to backs next door to the school. And when it rained we had buckets everywhere. It was cold. It was damp. The toilet was a hundred yards away in a block with three others to go with the other three houses that were back to back with.
AM: Just explain what back to back, what you mean by back to back.
JS: Well, these were, it was two semis and then attached to them at the back of them was another two semis. So it was a square block of four properties.
AM: And that means that the windows were only on the front because the —
JS: That’s right.
AM: Back wall is the dividing wall.
JS: Two walls.
AM: Between the two properties.
JS: Two walls.
AM: Which is why we call them back to back.
JS: That’s right.
AM: It’s like four in a square as you say, isn’t it?
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And torn up newspaper for loo roll. I can remember my mum always going mad that, ‘Mrs Garforth, next door has been using our toilet again. I can tell.’ [laughs]
AM: So the toilet was at the end of the —
JS: The toilets were along the side. So [pause] let me see. You’ve got the four houses there.
AM: You’ve got your four houses in a square.
JS: Back to back.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And there’s a bit of a garden here and the road there.
AM: Right. So in the front of each house.
JS: And there.
AM: There was a garden but then at the side of them —
JS: No, there wasn’t. No.
AM: No.
JS: The front of that house and this one were on the, on the road.
AM: Oh right. Ok.
JS: Right. This was ours. This one here. And the front door was here.
AM: Right.
JS: So it was on the corner and was that one. And the toilets were there.
AM: Right.
JS: Difficult to explain.
AM: And were there four separate toilets then?
JS: And so we had to go from, yeah.
AM: Ok.
JS: In a row. So we had to run from here.
AM: But you were further away.
JS: The furthest away.
AM: Because you were furthest away house from there really.
JS: Yes. That’s right.
AM: From the toilets.
JS: And that was Mrs Garforth’s. And our toilet was quite handy for her [laughs] And my primary school was here.
AM: Right.
JS: The school yard gate was there.
AM: Right.
JS: So whenever they couldn’t find me as a two year old I was in the school yard playing with the kids. And the teachers knew me and they’d take me in to class with them at two and three years old.
AM: I’m trying to think. 1949. Would rationing still be on?
JS: Yes.
AM: It would, wouldn’t it, then. So no sweets or anything like that.
JS: Oh no. No. No. You were lucky if you had clothes on your back. Times were really hard. Tin bath in front of the fire.
AM: Yeah. Once a week.
JS: By this time my dad was working at the power station. At Agecroft Power Station. And he used to go off on his bike. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Agecroft Brew, but it’s about one in one. Cycle down there to do his stint at the power station and then have to cycle all the way home and many a time we didn’t see him. I didn’t see him for days on end because he’d go to work and then it was can you do some overtime? So he’d go straight into overtime and then during the overtime there’d be a breakdown so he could be there for forty eight hours. And there was no phones or anything.
AM: No.
JS: He’d go off to work and we really didn’t know when he was coming back.
AM: Did your mum work? Or was your mum at home.
JS: Mum was working full time as a machinist. Yeah.
AM: Oh, you said she worked her whole life [unclear] Yeah.
JS: Yeah. So the next door neighbour was the caretaker of the primary school that I’ve just described and they became great friends. And she was the grandma that I never had was Auntie Nellie. She babysat so that they could both go to work. She was a wise old soul. She virtually brought me up.
AM: So how long did you live in in those houses?
JS: We lived there until I was about seven.
AM: Right.
JS: And then we thought we’d hit the big time because we were granted a council house a couple of miles away. And I mean it was the business, you know. We’d made the big time.
AM: Indoor bathroom. Indoor loo.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Nice big garden. It was in a state and dad set to and he made it lovely. It was his pride and joy. But in those days the rent man came on a Friday or whatever it was. You had to pay him in cash. No pets. You did as you were told else you were out. No benefits. No nothing in those days.
AM: No. Well yeah. Its, I’m just trying to think what year National Health came in. ’50. I can’t think.
JS: I think there was national health but there was no benefits as such.
AM: No.
JS: I mean you were privileged if you got a council house and you made sure you paid your rent. And you had to be, you had to be a good upstanding family with a full time job and able to afford the rent. There was no housing benefit or anything. If you couldn’t afford the rent you couldn’t have a council house. Times are different now.
AM: So then you grew up.
JS: I grew up.
AM: Got married. Moved away.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Your dad carried on working. I think you said your dad died.
JS: He carried on working. He worked hard all his life. Yeah. And then he had a heart attack in ’73. Died in ’73. He was only fifty five. It should never have happened.
AM: So quite young.
JS: Never have happened.
AM: Relatively speaking.
JS: I mean in this day and age they’d have put a stent in and he’d have been alright.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Again. And the care was dreadful. Within ten days his back was covered in bed sores. I didn’t believe him. I thought he was joking. Then he leaned over and I saw his back. It was raw. Absolutely blistered from top to bottom.
AM: It’s just how things have changed. When you do look back at something like that it makes you realise how much things have changed.
JS: I saw him the night before he died and he was fine. He’d watched the Cup Final. Manchester United. He was made up, buzzing. ‘Look at, they’ve moved me up here.’ ‘Well, that shows you’re getting better. Look. Your charts back.’ ‘Yeah. Ok.’ And then I got home and I got a phone call 6 o’clock the next morning, ‘It’s the hospital here.’ I said, ‘Is it my dad?’ ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Is he dead?’ She said, ‘Yeah. There’s nothing you can do. We’ve told your mum on the phone to get down there as soon as you can and then come here at 9 o’clock for his things.’ Well, by the time we got to my mum’s house she was running up and down the stairs just completely hysterical. They just told her over the phone and she was on her own. And we got there and he was still in his bed with the curtains around. Oh, there’s a bag with his things in. Sign for it. Sign for a post mortem. Come back tomorrow.’ And my husband said, ‘No. You’re not doing a post mortem.’ ‘But we’re — ’ He said, ' No. He’s dead. Peggy, don’t sign.’ I’ve never seen my husband be like that before. It was quite barbaric really. He didn’t deserve it. He worked long and hard all his life. He had a really tough life.
AM: So, tell me a little bit now about you and afterwards and 153 Squadron and and your relationship and what you do.
JS: Yeah. Well, because of dad’s discharge from the RAF Mett, his skipper was his hero and dad was all set for going back to Australia with him after the war. But of course because he was hospitalised and everything he lost touch with them all. And he tried ‘til the day he died to find them all but they were all Australian and there was no internet and phones or anything in those days. And he spent hours in the library but he wasn’t able to come up with anything. And on and off from thereafter I kept having a dabble myself and then the internet struck up and in 2006 I got hold of a guy who was on the internet, down as a representative for 153 squadron. And his phone number was there so I rang him and I said, ‘Is that Bill Thomas?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘153 Squadron.’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘My dad was with 153 Squadron.’ And he said, ‘Just a minute. What was his name?’ And I told him and he said, ‘That’s right. Came down from Kirmington. 166.’ I said, ‘Yeah, that’s right.’ He said, ‘Yeah. His skipper was Hal Mettam.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Hang on a minute,’ he said, ‘I’ve got Mett’s phone number here. Do you want it?’ Well, I couldn’t believe it. I really couldn’t believe it. I sat on it for two or three hours before I rang him and he, he was quite curt with me when I, when I rang. He was a bit off guard. He was moving house. He was about to eat his dinner and that was that and I put the phone down. Well, he put the phone down. And I thought well at least I’ve spoken to the guy and I set to and I wrote him a letter. Enclosed a few photographs and my contact details and I stuck it in the post. I got home from the work the following night and this Bill Thomas called me again. He said, ‘How did you get on speaking to Mett?’ So I said, ‘Well, it was a bit of a weird conversation really.’ He said, ‘Yeah. He was a bit aloof.’ He said, ‘I’ve got another one for you.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Another member of his crew.’ I said, ‘Oh, go on then.’ ‘Ned Kennedy, his tail gunner.’ I said, ‘Yeah. That’s right.’ He said, ‘He lives in Scarborough.’ I said, ‘Oh wow.’ And he gave me the phone number. I said, ‘Scarborough?’ He said, ‘Yeah. Scarborough, New South Wales.’ I said, ‘Oh right. Ok.’ So I waited ‘til the early hours of the morning and I thought right I shall ring now, because of the time difference. A little lady answered the phone and she put me on to Ned and he said, ‘Hello.’ I said, ‘Is that Ned Kennedy, 153 Squadron?’ ‘Yes. ‘I said, ‘Do you remember your flight engineer?’ He said, ‘Frank. Yes.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m Frank’s daughter.’ ‘Well, bugger me,’ he said in a broad Australian accent. He said, ‘You sound just like your dad. I can hear him now saying “Want a cup of tea, skip?”’ So, cutting a long story short I got home again the next night and lo and behold there was an email from Mett, the skipper which took me by surprise. Apologising and saying yes he did remember and everything. And, and we kept in touch. And in May ‘07 Mett came to the reunion. I went to the first reunion. And Ned, very sick, in a wheelchair got on a plane and came over from Australia and we all met up at the reunion and there wasn’t a dry house in the house.
AM: Where was it? Where was the reunion?
JS: It was at the Holiday Inn in Lincoln. Prior to that they had them at another hotel in Lincoln and we had it then at that hotel for three or four years and I started to get involved. And now we have it at the Bentley.
AM: So, how did you get involved in doing more?
JS: I got involved, particularly. There was one year we went and one of our vets was taken poorly the day before as happens because they’re all getting elderly and said he couldn’t make it and the staff at the hotel were insisting we paid for his room. And the secretary at the time was, ‘Oh. Ok then. Yes.’ And started to write a cheque. And they were also insisting that in future years all these veterans must be insured in case they couldn’t come. And being the rubber gob that I am stuck my two penneth in and said, ‘No. You are not being paid. You can’t tell me you did not sell that room last night.’ ‘Well um —' I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘There’s no way you’re having money out of us,’ I said, ‘These guys are veterans. They’re OAPs,’ you know, ‘Stop taking the mick,’ I said, ‘And regards insurance you can stick it.’ And they were sort of oooh. And then one or two people said, ‘Good on you, Jill.’ De de de de de de. Bill Thomas, in those days used to write a newsletter three times a year handscript and send it out to people. I said, ‘I’ll type that out for you Bill if you like.’ ‘Oh, will you?’ And it just sort of snowballed from there. I was elected to take over from madam who was saying yes to everything. And I started typing the newsletters for him and adding a little bit and then it got to the stage where I was actually doing them. And then arranging they decided after that particular incident to move hotels for the reunions. And we moved and I took over the bookings of that and then, you know as the vets have sort of either died or not been able to, to keep up Bill Thomas who was the secretary decided we should have an honorary secretary, an honorary treasurer and what have you. The next generation down. So that was how I got the post of an hon sec.
AM: That was you. So do you still have an annual reunion?
JS: Yes. We had it last month.
AM: How many Second World War veterans have you still got?
JS: Well, on the books we’ve got [pause] about half a dozen or so. Maybe more.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But we only had three show up this year. In fact one of them with his family came over from Majorca. He lives in Majorca now and he comes quite often. He’s a case is Jack, er the year before we went to the BBMF and we were having a look around and he got in the Lanc and he was sat in the pilot’s seat. He was a pilot. He’s the only pilot we’ve got left. He sat in the pilot’s seat and as we were walking away he was walking with his two sticks. I said, ‘Did you enjoy that, Jack?’ He said, ‘Aye. But I couldn’t remember where the undercarriage switch was.’ He’s got a wicked sense of humour. A very nice chap. The other one is Taf Owen. He did a Manna drop.
AM: Aneurin.
JS: Hmm?
AM: He’s called Aneurin.
JS: Yeah. We all call him Taf. Yeah. He did Manna drops. He’s our president. And Les Jenkin. Les [pause] Oh God. I forget his surname now.
AM: I’ll find out off you after if they’ve all been interviewed.
JS: Yes. Yes. He has. Les. Oh. my goodness. Well, his daughter’s treasurer anyway.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So —
AM: Tell me a little bit about the research you’ve been doing into a specific Lancaster.
JS: This specific Lancaster.
[recording paused]
AM: Well, tell me. So go on. So tell me about the plane.
JS: Right. Right. As part of my role as hon sec I decided one year a few years ago that we should get a bit more high tech and develop a webpage and a Facebook page. So I started them off and we’ve had all sorts of contacts come in via both. We’ve picked up a lot of new members. Particularly this last year. I think it’s because a lot of people going into their genealogy and stuff now. And things are beginning to tie up. Coincidences are happening. And, you know we had a couple meet up at the reunions whose fathers were, flew together and that sort of thing and it’s been, it’s almost spooky at times. Anyway, sometime last year via our webpage I got an enquiry. I was contacted by a guy in Germany called Roland. ‘I have some pieces of an aircraft. One of your aircraft from 153 Squadron. Would you like them? I found them in the forest.’ And he gave me the number of the aircraft. He’d done a little bit of research himself so, ‘Yes please.’ So arrived a box full of pieces.
AM: And I’m looking at —
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly that.
JS: Yeah.
AM: A box full of pieces.
JS: Yeah.
AM: From, blimey.
JS: They smell weird.
AM: I will take a photograph.
JS: Yeah. Well, I’ve got. I did take some photographs. Somebody reckoned that that particular, we thought that was leather but he was thinking it was part of the self-sealing liner for a fuel tank.
AM: Ok.
JS: Anyway, after a bit of research I discovered that this particular aircraft, it went down in March ’45. It was on a raid to Nuremburg with a crew and it was their first operation. And it was fully loaded with a four thousand pounder and fourteen hundred and seventy incendiaries and it was hit by a night fighter. It was virtually vapourised. But this gentleman in Germany has done a lot of research. He’s been and found their graves. He’s sent me all the information he’s got plus photographs of the crash site plus a report from the local mayor about the incident which I’ve had translated. And I’ve managed to find relatives of [pause] how many members of the crew now? I think it’s, well it’s four lots of relatives I think I’ve managed to contact who’ve become members. Yes. There we are. One. Two. Three. Four lots. So, that is still ongoing. We, at our AGM discussed it, wondering what to do with it all and seeing as the pieces are so small first refusal on the pieces has been to relatives or descendants of any of that crew. And the rest we thought we would take the most convenient bits and put them in a little presentation box. A glass fronted thing with a document which I’m trying to pull together of what exactly happened to it and give it to them at the Scampton Heritage Centre to put with the other 153 stuff that they’ve got there. That’s as it is at the moment. I’ve made lots of notes but we’ve not put a document together and we’ve not had a presentation.
AM: And did, did you say your dad had flown in that plane?
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And part of my research shows that my father flew in that, in that particular aircraft on one occasion. I think it, did I say it was October ’44 and it went down in March ’45. There’s also Tom Tobin who you have on your records. It was his, his favourite aircraft. He did about fourteen ops in it before it went down.
AM: But not that one.
JS: I’m in touch, regular contact with his daughter in Australia. A Douglas McCourt also flew in it on March the 2nd. I’m in contact with his son in South Africa. And Doug is ninety five and still going strong. And there is another. You have Peter Baxter’s memoirs on record. His son, Mike Baxter is in our Association because his father was the engineering officer for 153 and he actually flew in it as well. And he says in his memoirs, “We flew in Lancaster W-William. Appropriately numbered with my initials PB642 Peter Baxter.” So yes. It’s quite incredible really tying it all together. We’ve got a couple of photographs of members of the crew. We’re still trying to find more. As I say I’m still pulling it all together.
AM: Those pictures of the graves at the back.
JS: These are pictures of the graves.
AM: Where are the graves?
JS: At —
AM: Durnbach.
JS: Durnbach War Cemetery. And this is where he found the pieces. These are photographs of where he actually found the pieces of the aircraft.
AM: Given that there were that many, I mean you describe it as virtually vapourised.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Given that there were that many incendiaries on them.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: It sort of makes you wonder.
JS: Yeah. Tiny little pieces.
AM: What went in the graves.
JS: According to, according to the mayor in his report he says [pause] where is it? [unclear] Yeah. That, that’s what Tom [pause] Tom Tobin was in it. Flew fourteen ops in it or something. I’m just —
[pause – pages turning]
AM: Yeah. it’s, it, it is absolutely fascinating to look at the, to look at the photographs of where he dug the pieces up from.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It actually looks like wood smell.
JS: It is.
AM: It’s come down in woods.
JS: I’ve got the actual crash site and a map with it plotted on it. As I say, I’ve really got to bring all this together.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That’s my ongoing project at the moment.
AM: Yeah. but although you describe them as quite small pieces, which they are there’s quite a lot of it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: There’s a whole box of it.
JS: Well, there’s two boxes arrived. I mean one box arrived within days. And another one a few weeks later.
AM: How did he know?
JS: I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean most of that information in there in the graves and everything all tallies up and he, there’s a lot of Germans now doing this.
AM: Oh yeah.
JS: With metal detectors.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And then following it up and researching it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And that’s what he does a s a hobby etcetera. But I found it particular spooky when I opened the box. It was just a cardboard box. It had leaves and mud and twigs and things in it as well. And the smell as I opened the box and as I touched a piece and thinking dad’s flown in that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: We just, we both just stood there and we actually shivered.
AM: A little shiver.
JS: There’s one place. Is it that page?
AM: Your dad could have probably told you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What they were and where they were from.
JS: Like this one we worked out that this piece we worked out at the AGM that that’s got to be part of the one of the seats because they’re screws rather than rivets. Right. So it would have been screwed into the wood.
AM: So I’m looking at a piece of metal that’s maybe eight inches long.
JS: Yeah. And you see that’s the interior colour paint.
AM: And maybe about, yeah, about three quarters of an inch wide. You can see the green paint on it and the one, two, three, four, five, six screws with the screw heads. And on the other side of the metal where the screws have gone through it, the whatever it was and it looks like some sort of leather seat cover.
JS: That would have been a washer of some sort on the other side with it being screwed you see.
AM: It’s, I will take some photographs of this. It’s fascinating.
JS: As I say we decided in our infinite wisdom that that would be part of a seat.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because it will have been screwed to something wooden which would be a frame for a seat.
AM: Yeah.
JS: As opposed to rivets in, in other bits, you see.
AM: Crikey. So we’re looking at a Lancaster with rivets through it here and I wish I could bring Rosie the riveter in. I’ll tell Jill about Rosie the riveter later.
JS: That would be interesting. You know they’re quite heavy.
AM: It is absolutely fascinating.
JS: Yeah.
AM: To look at and think what, what they are and what they were
JS: We’ve scoured them all to try and find numbers on them but you can, you can feel the different metals. [unclear] probably a bit of shrapnel judging by the weight of that.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s absolutely fascinating looking at all these. I’m going to switch the tape off now and then take some photographs.
JS: When it first arrived —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Interview with Jill Saunders
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Annie Moody
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-06-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ASaundersJ170609
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:53:45 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Jill Saunders’s father Frank Simon was born in Salford in 1917. He served an apprenticeship as a fitter before joining A.V. Roe. He had joined the RAF volunteer reserve but as he was in a reserved occupation, he was only called up in 1944. He trained at St Athan as a flight engineer and was subsequently posted to 166 Squadron, based at RAF Kirmington, in October 1944. The remainder of his crew were all Australians. They were one of the crews sent to RAF Scampton to form 153 Squadron. Altogether, Frank flew 19 operations before his crew were transferred to the Pathfinders at RAF Little Straughton in January 1945. However, he became ill and was hospitalised in February 1945. It was while working at A.V. Roe that Frank met his future wife, Peggy. She was born in Kendal in 1920 and had worked at a shoe factory before being conscripted to a munitions factory in Manchester. They married after the war. Frank worked at a power station until his death at the age of 55 in 1973. Peggy lived into her 90s.
In about 2006, Jill made contact with the 153 Squadron Association and through it, with two of Frank’s former crew. She became involved in the running of the Association and remains Honorary Secretary.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
final resting place
flight engineer
Home Guard
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Kirmington
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
shot down
training
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hunt, William Richard
W R Hunt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-01-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hunt, WR
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Nine items including a photograph album of 18 items. The collection concerns Sergeant William Richard Hunt (520376 Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. He flew operations as an observer with 35 Squadron and was killed 19 May 1942.</p>
<p>The collection includes an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2561">album</a> with scenes of Gibraltar and Oran (Algeria), pre-war aircraft and RAF stations.<br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by William John Hastings and catalogued by Benjamin Turner. <br /><br />Additional information on William Richard Hunt is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/214002/">IBCC Losses Database</a></p>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Golbey, le 19 Septembre 1945
Bien chère Madame.
Je me permet de vous écrire cette lettre pour vous faire connaître que j’ai bien reçu votre lettre dans laquelle vous m’avez fait savoir que vous me remerciez des détails que j’avais bien voulu vous donner au sujet de la mort de votre malheureux fils.
Croyez bien Madame que j’ai fait tout ce que j’ai pu pour vous donner satisfaction et pour permettre au cœur d’une mère éprouvée d’être rassuré sur le sort d’un être doublement cher.
Je m’excuse tout de suite de ne pouvoir vous adresser cette lettre en traduction anglaise. J’ai disposé un certain temps d’un interpréte bénévole. Hélas, cette personne a quitté la région et je suis maintenant placé dans l’obligation de m’exprimer dans ma langue maternelle.
Croyez bien qu’elle n’en est pas moins aussi sincère à votre égard. Au cours de la guerre 1939-40, j’ai vécu assez longtemps dans un secteur et avec des militaires de l’armée britannique. Croyez que j’ai pu les apprécier à leur juste valeur et que je puis que leur exprimer à tous ma satisfaction personnel pour leur attitude et leur conduite qui a été des plus correctes vis à vis de notre pauvre pays de France.
Il est des choses dans une existence qui ne s’oublient pas. Celle ci restera toujours gravée dans ma mémoire et soyez persuadée que je garde vis à vis la Nation Britannique tout entière la plus profonde reconnaissance.
Vous me faites connaître sur votre lettre que vous ne savez comment me remercier? Puis-je me permettre de vous faire une humble demande? Pendant mon séjour auprès des militaires britanniques, j’ai apprécié en de maintes occasion l’arome et la délicatesse de votre tabac blond.
Serait-ce trop vous demander que de vouloir bien me faire un petit envoi de ce cher tabac? Vous me croirez certainement bien osé, mais c’est une petite excuse pour moi, car je suis un enragé fumeur et le tabac en France est rare. Je vous en serais extrémement reconnaissant.
De mon côté, je me ferai un plaisir de vous accueillir chez moi, si un jour au cours de l’un de vos pélerinages en France sur la tombe de votre cher fils, vous daigniez venir me faire une visite.
Comme vous me le demandez sur votre lettre, je vous fais parvenir les épreuves des photos prises au cimetière d’Aiglemont (Ardennes). L’épreuve marquée d’un X vous indique la tombe où repose de son éternel sommeil votre regretté garçon.
Avec mes meilleurs souvenirs, je vous prie d’agréer Madame l’expression de mon profond dévouement.
A Bally T.S.V.P.
[page break]
Mon adresse.
Monsieur BALLY, Auguste.
Adjudant de Gendarmerie à GOLBEY.
(Vosges)-France-
[page break]
Golbey, 19th Sept. 1945
My dear Madame,
I am writing this letter to let you know that I duly received your letter in which you thank me for the details I have been able to give you on the subject of the passing of your dear son.
Believe me dear madame that I have done my utmost to give you satisfaction and permit a mother’s heart to be assured of the fate of a Being doubly dear.
I ask you to excuse me for addressing you in French, but I have lost the services of a kind interpreter He has left this vicinity, and I am now obliged to write you in my mother tongue.
Believe me however that my words are no less sincere. In the course of the War 1939 – 40 I lived in a sector with British soldiers, and learned to appreciate their true value, and I express to them my personal satisfaction with their attitude and conduct which was always correct in my poor country of France.
It is one of the things in my existence which I shall never forget. It is graven in my memory, and be persuaded that I shall [word deleted] look to the entire British nation with the most profound gratitude.
You ask me in your letter how you can thank me. May I be so bold as to make a suggestion? During my stay with your soldiers I appreciated many, many times the aroma and delicacy of your light tobacco. Will it be too much to ask you to send me a small parcel of that cherished tobacco. You will certainly think it is very bold of me, and the only excuse I can offer is that I am a desperate smoker and tobacco in France is rare. I shall be very grateful to you.
From my side, it will be a great pleasure to [deleted] meet [/deleted] [inserted] receive [/inserted] you at my house, if one day in the course of a journey to France to see the tomb of your dear son you will do me the honour to visit me.
As requested, I am sending you the negatives of the photos taken at Aiglemont. The negative marked with a cross indicates the tomb where reposes your son in his eternal sleep.
My best wishes, etc etc.
[page break]
Paris 258K
2 1/2 hrs
3 miles North E of mezieres – charoevlle
Railway mezieres to Givel[deleted] l [/deleted]
Paris
8.30 Sunday
11.04 [indecipherable word]
[indecipherable word] station
Paris
11-13. to Gwett.
12.35
Brussels to Gwett
9am 10.50.
Cooks
9-50 Heathrow Brussells 10-40.
Brussels
9.25
L
10.20
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Mrs Hunt
Description
An account of the resource
A letter written in French, with accompanying English translation sent to Mrs Hunt. The French letter was written by an Auguste Bally, an Adjudant in the Gendarmerie. The letter is sent as a reply to Mrs Hunt, thanking Bally for information on her son's death and details of his burial. Bally reminisces his time with British soldiers. Bally later asks for some tobacco. The reverse of the English translation details various times and locations handwritten.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Auguste Bally
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-09-19
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1945
1945-09-19
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Golbey
France--Ardennes
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
British Army
Language
A language of the resource
fra
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Type written double sided letter with accompanying translation
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Benjamin Turner
Frances Grundy
Steve Baldwin
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBallyAHuntH450919-0001, EBallyAHuntH450919-0002, EBallyAHuntH450919-0003, EBallyAHuntH450919-0004
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
final resting place
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Malcolm
Malcolm H Payne
M H Payne
Description
An account of the resource
54 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant Malcolm L Payne (417512 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations from RAF Bardney as an air gunner with 9 Squadron and was killed in action along with other members of his crew on 13 July 1944. The collection consists of his letters to Miss Doris Weeks, letters from Doris Weeks to Malcolm Payne's mother after his death and official letters to Doris Weeks from the Royal Australian Air Force concerning his death, grave and bequeaths. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Debbie Brown and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />Additional information on Malcolm L Payne is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/118239/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, MH
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Australian Red Cross Society Symbol]
AUSTRALIAN RED CROSS SOCIETY
LONDON ADVISORY COMMITTEE
P.& 0. OFFICES,
VICTORIA HOUSE,
STRAND,
LONDON, W.C.2.
HB/SF/AH/5315
6th July, 1945
Miss. D Weeks
37, Hawthorn Road,
Bunker’s Hill,
Lincoln.
Dear Madam,
[underlined] F/S M.H. Payne. Aus. 417512 [/underlined]
With reference to your recent letter, we have been advised by The Royal Australian Air Force, that they have advised you that F/S Payne was buried in the Local Cemetery Court L’Eveque.
Should we receive any further details we will at once let you know.
Yours truly,
Ida Francis
Commandant
Secretary – London Committee
[Page Break]
[Postmark]
[Postage Stamp]
Miss. D. Weeks,
37, Hawthorne Road,
Bunker’s Hill,
Lincoln.
[inserted] Fondest wishes on your birthday Love Babs + Leo [/inserted]
[inserted] W/O. C. O’Neill, 50 High Street Coleshill, Warwick [/inserted]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Doris Weeks from Australian Red Cross
Description
An account of the resource
Informs that Royal Australian Air Force have advised that Flight Sergeant Payne was buried in the local cemetery at Court L'Evegue.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Australian Red Cross London Advisory Committee
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-06-07
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EFrancisIWeeksD450706
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
France
France--Haute-Marne
France--Arc-en-Barrois
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-07-06
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Claire Monk
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten letter and envelope
final resting place
killed in action
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Warren, George
George Clarence Warren
G C Warren
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-08-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Warren, GC
Description
An account of the resource
47 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer George Warren (162041 Royal Air Force) he flew operations as a navigator with 626 Squadron until he was killed <span>16 March 1945 on an operation to Nürnberg. The collection contains his log book, correspondence and photographs.</span><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Harris and Vanessa Hibbert and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on George Warren is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/124450/ ">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This summary of George’s life was written by his sister Beryl Warren (later B. Walden) for her grand daughter to read out at school. The friends of George referred to on page 2 who was working at the War Tribunal was Mary Carter. I have not been able to trace her.
There are two letters from her to George’s mother enclosed in the clear wallet which speaks of his grave being located.
[page break]
Flying Officer George Clarence Warren B.A.
Read by Rose Miranda Hibbert.
I never met my Great Uncle George, but my Grannie B told me about him. He was her older brother who often bought her books and took her on country walks and bicycle rides. He taught her how to write fairy stories, make pictures and then turn them into little books, he also took her on walking expeditions to the Welsh mountains. She remembers he was always busy – making model aeroplanes, fly-fishing flies from feathers and coloured thread, and developing and printing his own photographs. He was a keen fisherman and sometimes caught a trout for breakfast, he wrote poetry enjoyed playing golf and he was very interested in the new aero planes; flying machines were quite new and special 75 – 80 years ago and George loved them and went to the local airport whenever they held an open day – at that time few people travelled by air, they took a train or a ship. At school he was a clever student and when the second world war began in 1939 he was 17 years old and already studying Spanish and French at university. He joined the RAF as soon as he graduated in 1942 and began learning to fly an aeroplane – he thought this was great. He was posted to Bomber Command in 1944 and spent the last months of his life flying over Germany at night, dropping bombs on German war factories. He knew the R.A.F. had to do this in order to win
[page break]
the war, but he didn’t like to think that some of the bombs would injure German families.
He wrote a lot of poetry at this time. His plane was shot down after a raid on Nuremburg in South Germany in March 1945, just before the war ended. Through a university friend of his working as an interpreter at the War Tribunal in Germany, his grave was traced to a small German village church in Burgobenbach near Ansbach. My Grannie visited the village in 1946 and found the people very kind, friendly and sympathetic. My Great-Grandmother gave a donation to the church and the money Great Uncle George left was given to his school King Edward’s Birmingham to set up a Spanish prize for senior students.
Because of this war I did not have the chance of meeting my Great Uncle and I am very sorry about this because I know he and I would have been great friends and like Grannie B I am sure I would have learnt a lot from him.
Vanessa Hibbert her mother added
What an appalling waste of life. It fills me with the hugest regret. Anyway, here we are enjoying the freedom to express ourselves and think our own thoughts and that is his legacy and our inheritance to celebrate.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A Brief Introduction to George Warren's Life
Description
An account of the resource
The summary was written by George's sister for her grand-daughter to read out at school. Although Rosemiranda never met Great Uncle George she was told all about him by her Grandmother.
George did well at school and he was fascinated by aeroplanes. He enlisted, joined Bomber Command but was shot down over Nuremberg in March 1945. His grave is in Burgoberbach, near Ansbach.
Her mother has added a footnote about the appalling waste of life.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Beryl Warren
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BWarrenBWarrenGCv10001,
BWarrenBWarrenGCv10002,
BWarrenBWarrenGCv10003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Nuremberg
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
aircrew
bombing
final resting place
killed in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/205/3340/ABatesP151009.1.mp3
f5fd2ef009e496cfc1da092a451f6c89
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bates, Philip
Philip Bates
P Bates
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Philip Bates (1307447 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 149 Squadron until his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bates, P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Mr Philip Bates at home in Urmston, Greater Manchester on Friday 9th of October at 2pm. Mr Bates could you please confirm your full name?
PB: Yes. Phillip Bates.
BW: And your rank.
PB: Sergeant when I was shot down but warrant officer when I returned back from being a prisoner of war.
BW: Ok. And do you recall your service number at all?
PB: Yes 1307447.
BW: It’s surprising how that -
PB: And I can tell you my prisoner of war number as well
BW: Ok.
PB: 222803
BW: 222803
PB: Stalag 4b.
BW: Ok. And what squadron were you on, sir?
PB: 149 at Lakenheath.
BW: Ok. So if you could just give us an idea of what your life was like prior to joining the air force so where you grew up and any sort of significant movements before joining the RAF and what prompted you to join.
PB: Yeah. Well I’m a native of Burnley, Lancashire, a cotton weaving town, until I was employed as a junior clerk with a local manufacturer but once the war started I was keen to get in and immediately after the fall of France I volunteered for the air force. And -
BW: So this would be May 1940.
PB: This would be May 1940 and went to Blackpool for a fortnight square bashing.
BW: Ok.
PB: Those of us who were on that particular course were then posted to Cosford and -
BW: Ok.
PB: Nobody thought about anything in those days except the imminent invasion of Britain and we who’d been in the air force a fortnight were given the job of defending Cosford against German paratroopers which was the most farcical thing you could ever imagine so a friend and I very quickly sneaked away to the orderly room and volunteered for training as flight mechanics and we both -
BW: Ok.
PB: Trained as flight mechanics and then as fitter 2E’s and my friend was posted to 149 squadron where I met up with him in 1943. I went to 86 squadron, Coastal Command flying the Beaufort torpedo bombers and moved from there to Scotland and eventually I was sent to Sealand to a huge maintenance depot on a six month potential NCO course with the intention that when I returned back to my unit I’d be made a corporal but whilst I was at Sealand a Manchester landed and this was June 1942 and I went to look at this Manchester. I’d never seen anything bigger than a, than a Wellington before and this thing was stood there with its bomb doors open and this was a few months after Butch Harris had taken charge and I looked up into that bomb bay and I said to myself. ‘Bomber Command is no longer a joke. It’s big. It’s getting bigger. I’ve got to be part of it,’ and so the next day I volunteered for training as a flight engineer.
BW: Ok.
PB: And I trained early in 1943. Posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Waterbeach where I was crewed up with a crew who had just finished their OTU on Wellingtons and we went from there.
BW: And so just thinking back to your decision to join Bomber Command. You’d already had some technical training -
PB: Yes.
BW: At that stage.
PB: Yes.
BW: And so you wanted to further that as a flight engineer.
PB: Well the obvious job for a fitter 2E was to be, was to be a flight engineer.
BW: Ok.
PB: And it didn’t require a great deal of training to bridge the gap of course.
BW: And there were a number of guys who went through Halton. Did you do any training for flight engineering at Halton or not? With [?]
PB: No. St Athan.
BW: Right.
PB: St Athan.
BW: So you weren’t one of Trenchard’s brats or anything?
PB: Oh no I wasn’t a brat. I was too old to be a brat [laughs].
BW: And so it was the sight of the Manchester that prompted you to join.
PB: Yes.
BW: Properly Bomber Command.
PB: Yes, yes.
BW: Were you able, at that stage, to volunteer for flying duties or did that come later? Did you foresee that as being part of that trade as a flight engineer?
PB: Once I became a flight, once I became a flight engineer obviously I was going to go into Bomber Command.
BW: Ok. And -
PB: When I arrived at St Athan I was given choices I could train to be. I could train to be on Stirlings or Halifaxes or Lancasters or Sunderland Flying Boats or Catalina Flying Boats. Now, as a fitter I’d always worked on radial engines and so I chose this, I chose the Stirling for the reason that it was Bomber Command and it had radial engines. It perhaps wasn’t the wisest choice. I’d have been better off on Lancasters probably but I I I liked the radial engine so that’s why I chose Stirlings.
BW: Speaking as an engineer how did you find the radials then? Were there, were there particular properties about them that you liked?
PB: Yes. They, they, they were more powerful than the Merlin for starters and they were more dependable and they could take more, they could take more damage.
BW: That’s er that -
PB: When I when I was a boy very keen on aircraft now to me the inline liquid cooled engine was just a big motor car engine. The radial was a proper aeroplane engine.
BW: Ok.
PB: That’s what it was all about for me. The radial was a proper aeroplane engine. The other was just a big motor car engine.
BW: I’m sensing there there’s a difference between the aerial engine and flying. Did you have a wish to fly at an early age?
PB: Well as a fitter whenever I worked on an aircraft and a pilot came along to do a test flight I invariably asked if I could go up with him so I flew on, I flew on Lysanders, Blenheims and Oxfords as a passenger.
BW: And which of those was your favourite? Which was -
PB: Oh the Lysander.
BW: Really?
PB: Oh gorgeous. You’re going, you’re going along and there’s a slow, you heard a terrible creaking noise and the slots and slats worked and the flaps come down.
BW: Ahum.
PB: And you could practically stand still. Wonderful aeroplane. Wonderful.
BW: They used that -
PB: Aeroplane.
BW: On special duties -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Squadrons.
PB: Short take off, short landings.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But they were, they were a lovely aircraft to be a passenger in.
PB: Oh yes.
BW: Was it?
PB: It was a marvellous aeroplane was the Lysander. I loved it.
BW: Did you get many flights in those?
PB: Yes quite a few. Yes. I was on, I was on an ackack calibration unit. We worked in concert with the defences of Edinburgh the Forth Bridge and the Rosyth dockyard and I was once in a Lysander where we did dive bombing exercises on the Forth Bridge which was fantastic.
BW: Brilliant.
PB: Absolutely fantastic. It was like being in a JU87 almost.
BW: And this was just to calibrate the ackack guns as you say.
PB: Yes.
BW: To make sure they had the right sort of -
PB: Yes.
BW: Ranging or -
PB: Yes. Yes.
BW: Distance. There were no rounds fired in these -
PB: No. No. No just -
BW: Just to make sure.
PB: Calibration yeah.
BW: Right but either way the pilot imitated a dive bombing manoeuvre on a
PB: Yeah but we had a real clapped out aircraft.
BW: So having had some experience of Lysanders, a single engine aircraft and Oxfords the twin engine.
PB: Yeah.
BW: You then -
PB: All radial engines of course.
BW: And radial engines yeah you then opted while you were at St Athan to go forward for Stirlings.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And what was the course that lead you from St Athan to your squadron? How, how did you go about getting that?
PB: Well, we, we completed our course and we got our brevies and were posted to, to Waterbeach Heavy Conversion Unit and I was introduced to a pilot, a Pilot Officer Cotterill and he was my skipper and I then met the rest of the crew and we took it from there. Did our heavy conversion training.
BW: And how long did that take? Roughly.
PB: Not very long. Maybe about eight weeks I suppose. Something like that.
BW: And was most of that or all of it daylight sorties or were there night time -
PB: No.
BW: Ops involved as well?
PB: We did, we did two four hour sessions of daylight take offs and landings, circuits and bumps. Take of twenty minutes to take off and land for four hours. And having done eight hours of that in daytime we did another eight hours at night and then after that we did, we did cross country flights.
BW: And when you met your crew at this point did you stay together from the conversion unit through to, on operational squadron as the same crew or were the members interchanged?
PB: We lost two members. We lost two members shortly after we joined the squadron.
BW: And was there a reason behind that at all?
PB: Yes. Our first, our first navigator, Geoff was a regular soldier stationed in India when the war broke out. Browned off. To escape he volunteered for training as air crew. He had a stammer which didn’t help and he was a useless navigator and we knew he was useless and our first trip was a very simple mine laying in the North Sea and he flew us straight through the balloon barrage at Norwich coming back and the next day he packed his kit bags and left us.
BW: And was that his choice or -
PB: No. No, that was forced upon him.
BW: Right ok so it wasn’t something there like a moment of self-awareness. He decided to leave.
PB: No. No, he told, he told us he said, ‘They decided I’m not suitable for Bomber Command. I’m being posted to a Coastal Command station.’ Well I think that was just a face saver on his part. I can’t imagine what happened to him but he couldn’t navigate for toffee. Even, even, even with a Gee set he was useless.
BW: Ahum.
PB: And then we did two mine laying trips. We did a lot of fighter affiliation exercises and our mid upper gunner [Bolivar?] a Londoner was brilliant during, during fighter affiliation. Now, Len, Len the wireless operator was always sick. He spewed up everywhere and I sat there and think, ‘Why don’t you crash the bloody thing and get it over with.’ That’s how bad I felt and Bob was as happy as could be but we did two mine laying trips. One in the North Sea -
BW: Ahum.
PB: And one in the river estuary at Bordeaux and then our first target was the opening night of the Battle of Hamburg. 24th of July.
BW: This would be 24th of July 1943.
PB: Yeah. The next night we went to Essen. The next day our mid upper gunner reported sick with air sickness. Now, how he suddenly became air sick overnight I do not know but that was the end of him. So we had a new navigator and a new mid upper gunner.
BW: Sometimes after raids like that men would be removed if they were felt to perhaps have broken at some stage. Do you -
PB: Oh yes.
BW: Do you think that might have been an impact?
PB: Yes. He was still, he was still on the station when we were shot down and I’ve often wondered what he made of it that morning when he woke up and found five empty beds.
BW: And so if I can just touch again on the fighter affiliation. What kind of exercises were carried out there?
PB: Well either, either a Spitfire or a, or a Hurricane would make mock attacks on us and the gunners would give instructions to the skipper as to what evasive action to take and it was quite, it was quite, because our bomb aimer was a failed pilot who could fly, fly a Stirling perfectly well and the Stirling had dual controls so him and the pilot used to work together and we could really throw it about. Really throw it about. You could never have done that on a Lancaster what we did with a Stirling,
BW: No. There was only a single set of controls.
PB: Yeah. Oh it was a wonderful aircraft. Wonderful manoeuvrability aircraft. Couldn’t get very high but by George it could, it could manoeuvre.
BW: And so you mentioned about the raid on Hamburg. That was pretty close to being your first operational sortie.
PB: That was our first target yes after two mine laying trips.
BW: And what, what do you recall about that at all because it was Operation Gomorrah, the raid on Hamburg was pretty significant.
PB: It was operational. What, what, what was most fascinated me most was the colours. The colours of the lights. Reds, greens, yellows. Searchlights, blue searchlights, tracer shells, flak it was an incredible sight. An incredible sight and when you see, when you looked down and someone had just released a string of four pound incendiaries you’d get this brilliant white light like that and then it slowly turns red as the fire gets going. An incredible sight.
BW: So you’d see a sort of a line of white which would -
PB: Yes.
BW: Presumably be the magnesium -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In the incendiaries -
PB: Yes.
BW: Setting fire to the building which was then of course -
PB: Yes.
BW: Catch turn orange and burn.
PB: Yes it was quite remarkable.
BW: And did you only make the one raid on Hamburg or did you return because there was -
PB: We, we, we -
BW: Four days I think.
PB: In ten days this was our introduction to the target. In ten days we did four Hamburgs, an Essen and a [Remshite]
BW: Wow so you flew right through the raid on, or the operation against Hamburg -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In that case.
PB: And the second night of course. The night of the firestorm oh, deary deary me, that was terrible.
BW: Were you aware at all of what was, what was going on? It seems a lot of information has come out subsequently. What were you sort of aware of the damage at that time?
PB: Well where -
BW: While flying.
PB: On the second night when we were back over the sea I went up into the astrodome and looked back and there was only one fire in Hamburg that night. It looked to be about three miles across and it came straight up white, red and black smoke thousands of feet above us and I said over the intercom, ‘those poor bastards down there.’ I couldn’t help myself. It was a terrible, terrible sight. I’ve never seen anything like it on any other target.
BW: At once it’s a spectacular sight but it’s also when you see that sort of thing -
PB: We, we, we killed forty thousand people that night.
BW: When did that, when was that made aware to you? When did you become aware of that sort of statistic? Was it pretty soon after or was it -
PB: Well the newspapers reported it a couple of days later and gave the number of dead.
BW: Right.
PB: And quite honestly I was disappointed. I thought from I saw it must have killed more than that.
BW: It sounds like they might have underestimated.
PB: Yeah. But forty thousand people were killed that night.
BW: Ahum.
PB: Compare that to how many were killed in London in the entire period of the war. There was no comparison.
BW: No. It’s different isn’t it?
PB: But we never, we never, we never achieved anything like Hamburg again until Dresden of course and in Dresden it only killed twenty odd thousand.
BW: And so Hamburg has obviously made quite an impression for that reason.
PB: Hamburg, I think was undoubtedly Bomber Command’s greatest success of the war. I’ve just, I’ve just read a book by Adolf Galland who was in charge of the German night fighters and the things he says about what the consequences of Hamburg and what it meant to the High Command and the changes it was, it shattered them. Completely shattered them.
BW: So it had, it had certainly had ramifications on the ground but it had more ramifications for the Luftwaffe High Command is what you’re saying.
PB: Yes. Yes. It terrified the German fighter defence to pieces. Terrified them.
BW: And did you see many night fighters at this stage over Hamburg? Were they active?
PB: No because it was it was the first, it was just the introduction of Window and everything was at odds.
BW: And so Window was the anti-radar -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Jamming mechanism.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Where they chucked out strips of aluminium.
PB: But they recovered, they recovered from, from Window very very quickly and they got, they got a new form of defence which was more effective they forced it out before, before Window and I’ve read the German view that Window did more harm than good for Bomber Command in the long run because it completely organised their defences.
BW: But at least on that night or on those nights that you were flying over Hamburg the fighters were ineffective because -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Of the use of Window.
PB: The first night there were eight hundred aircraft and we lost twelve.
BW: Wow.
PB: And most of those were lost because they were off course. Separated away from the protection of Window.
BW: Were there any hits from the ackack below? German anti-aircraft fire was renowned as being very accurate. Did you feel that as you were flying over there?
PB: The one thing, the one thing that fascinated me about ackack was that the smell of cordite filled the aircraft. You were flying through clouds of the stuff but when we landed the bomb aimer and I always got our torches and we searched underneath the aircraft and if there was no damage we were disappointed. We expected to have been hit.
BW: So that, that, sort of, I suppose summarises or encompasses your first few trips on operations. What happened after Hamburg? What were the next -
PB: Well we flew on -
BW: Significant raids for you.
PB: We flew on the last two raids ever carried out on Northern Italy and we flew twice to Nuremberg which we always regarded as a particularly important Nazi target and we did a few other various towns in the Ruhr and then on the 31st of August we went to Berlin and that was something else. That was an absolute complete fiasco.
BW: And this was still 1943?
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: In August ’43.
PB: Yeah. The raid on Berlin on the 31st of August. Well the trouble was we’d been, we’d been to Monchengladbach the night before and we quite often did two nights, two consecutive nights. Well, you do Monchengladbach you get very little sleep, you go for briefing and you’re told its Berlin. There were howls of rage from all the air crews and that manifested itself later because that night about eighty aircraft ditched their bombs in the North Sea and returned early. Biggest number ever ‘cause people weren’t prepared to go.
BW: That, that almost sounds a bit like a mutiny in a way doesn’t it?
PB: It’s not far off.
BW: Down tools.
PB: It’s not far off really but the raid was also badly planned. All the damage to Berlin had been in the west and it was intended that this raid should do damage in the east and so we were sent to a point south of Berlin. There was Berlin on our left. We expected to fly seventy miles east. Split-arsed turn, fly seventy miles back and approach Berlin from, from the east. Now, nobody did it. The pathfinders put their markers down two miles south of where they should have been and we all approached from the south so the creepback extended miles and miles and miles. We killed less than a hundred people in Berlin. We lost over two hundred airmen killed and over a hundred prisoners of war. It was a complete and utter fiasco.
BW: Wow and that simply stemmed from, as you say, the pathfinder markers being dropped two miles south.
PB: And we’re coming from the south.
BW: Yeah.
PB: You can imagine it, practically no bombs and the Germans that night for the first time put down these parachute flares. It was like driving down the Mall with all the lights on. It was an incredible sight and it’s such a big place to get through. It takes forever.
BW: And so the gunners clearly with those parachute flares they could have a clear sight presumably of the bomber stream.
PB: And you’ve got day fighters looking down.
BW: Wow.
PB: As well as the night fighters looking up and you’ve got the schragemusik by this time as well.
BW: Which are the cannons in the back of an ME110 to fire vertically underneath the bomber yeah.
PB: Yeah or a JU88.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Or a Messerschmitt 110.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Seventy degree angle, in between the inborn engine and the fuselage hit the main tanks. All you’d see is a great big flash in the sky and that’s it. It was gone.
BW: The crews often said they didn’t know they were there.
PB: No.
BW: Those who survived didn’t see them.
PB: You could see an aircraft flying peacefully and then the next second it’s a ball of fire and you’ll see no tracer and a myth arose and the myth was that the Germans were firing a new type of bomb, a new type of shell which we called a scarecrow and it was designed not to shoot aircraft down but to explode and give the impression of an aircraft blowing up and for months navigators would log these and they weren’t scarecrows. The Germans never had a scarecrow. They were aircraft blowing up.
BW: Actually the aircraft themselves.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And -
PB: And the irony of that is that in the First World War the British had upward firing guns to attack zeppelins.
BW: Ahum Yeah.
PB: [laughs] They never learn.
BW: Because they were difficult to shoot down as well. But so ok from, from there that’s two operations on the trot really. Monchengladbach and Berlin.
PB: Yeah.
BW: You mentioned those airmen killed. Were any of those from the squadron? Did you know any of those guys at all? Were there Stirlings in that lot that were shot down?
PB: Er we there was a raid on Berlin on the 24th of August as well but we were on leave but a crew that we trained with went missing that night and a friend of mine got shot down on the night we were on. A fella called Lew Parsons. He was shot down on the 31st .
BW: Luke Parsons?
PB: Yeah. L E W, short for Lewis.
BW: Oh I see. Lew Parsons.
PB: He was a flight engineer.
BW: And he was shot down on the 31st of August.
PB: Yeah. Yeah. But it, it was a dreadful night. Anyway, the next day our skipper and our navigator were commissioned officers and so the next day we met up with the skipper and he said Johnny’s reported sick and Johnny was our navigator. Flying Officer Johnny [Turton ]. A fantastic navigator. Absolutely fantastic and he’d gone sick and later in the day we were given a replacement. Another flying officer but a New Zealander by the name of McLean and he was the exact opposite from Johnny. Johnny was a big outgoing personality who radiated confidence. This chap had no, no, no personality whatsoever. He was with us five days. We scarcely ever saw him. We scarcely ever spoke to him. We never even learned his Christian name. And he got us shot down.
BW: And that was, of course then going to be your last -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Last flight.
PB: Yeah 5th 5th of September. Mannheim.
BW: Ok. I was just going to ask a question there and it’s just gone from my memory but I’ll probably come back to it. So, oh yes how far into your tour were you at that point? It sounds -
PB: That was our fifteenth trip.
BW: So exactly halfway through.
PB: Exactly halfway. We knew with Johnny we could do, we could do the tour because he was so brilliant but without him we were lost and he finished his tour. He joined another crew, finished his tour got his DFC, survived the war. He was brilliant.
BW: It’s strange how fate goes isn’t it?
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Before we move on to your experience of being shot down I would just like to ask about what it was like for you as a flight engineer in the sort of preparation and flying out. What sort of things you would do? Perhaps if you could give us a sense of preparation you would go through to -
PB: Yes.
BW: To board the aircraft.
PB: Yes.
BW: What it was like to then go up in a Stirling.
PB: Well to begin with once we got out the aircraft there were a great many pre-flight checks to do. One of them was to go up onto the main plane with a member of the ground crew. Now, we had fourteen petrol tanks on a Stirling. Sometimes we only had the four main ones. Sometimes we had fourteen. Sometimes we had a mixture but my job was to go up on to the main plane with a member of the ground crew and he would open up the filler caps on all the tanks that were supposed to be full and I had to check visually that they were full to the, to the brim. Now, every night I’m stood on the leading edge of a Stirling. I’m twenty feet above the ground. I think when he moves to the next one and I follow, if I slip I’ll roll down the main plane I’ll fall fifteen feet to the tarmac and at the very least I’ll break an ankle and I’ll be alive tomorrow morning and I always, always considered that thought. I never did it of course. The thought was always there. It was in our own power to be alive tomorrow morning [laughs]. But once, once in the air my two main jobs was one to monitoring engine performance making sure the pressures, temperature etcetera were as they should be and that we were flying at the right airspeed and the right revs and the other was calculating every twenty minutes I had to calculate the amount of petrol used from whichever tank doing the past every twenty minutes recorded so that I always knew how much petrol remained in each tank because they weren’t over generous with their petrol allowance and people did run short very often. So that was, that was important, to keep, to know exactly how much petrol you had and where it was.
BW: So even though you’d done inspections and the ground crew had correctly filled the tanks presumably you could encounter unknown winds and like a headwind.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And use your fuel more quickly.
PB: As I understand it the calculation was made. This is your track. It’s so many miles. You’ve so much petrol. We’ll give you so much and we’ll give you another three hundred and twenty gallons as a, as a reserve.
BW: Reserve.
PB: But of course you get off track, winds are against you, anything can happen. You can’t hold height, you’ve got to get into rich mixture to climb again. All sorts of things could happen to make you use more fuel.
BW: And that would include of course having to take evasive action over the target or anything like that.
PB: Yes, evasive, any time when you had to open up the engines and go into full fuel. We were using a gallon a minute.
BW: That’s pretty significant and that’s just through one engine. A gallon a minute through an engine.
PB: No. It’s, that’s the aircraft.
BW: Oh, the aircraft. Ok.
PB: A gallon a mile through the aircraft.
BW: Oh right.
PB: A gallon a minute through each engine yes.
BW: And I think you said the Stirling was a, was a lovely aircraft to fly. What was your experience generally of the environment in which you were having to work? Was it cramped or was there enough room to do your job?
PB: I’ve only been in a Lancaster once and it horrified me. There’s no space to breathe. You could hold a dance in a Stirling. It was huge and because of the short wingspan it was so highly manoeuvrable. It was a beautiful aeroplane but it couldn’t get any height. Couldn’t get any height.
BW: A limited ceiling.
PB: We had to fight to fly at thirteen thousand. On the last night at Hamburg. The night of the big storm we did two runs over Hamburg at eight thousand feet with the bomb doors frozen up.
BW: Wow.
PB: That was a terrible night.
BW: Just out of interest the air supply gets pretty thin around ten thousand feet. Did you ever have to use oxygen?
PB: It goes on automatically at ten thousand feet.
BW: Right.
PB: Ten thousand feet, oxygen on and skipper charges into S gear.
BW: Into S gear.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And does that give you extra boost through the engines?
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Ok and were you able, in some cases crews had to stow their parachutes. Were you able to move around with your parachutes on or did you stow it?
PB: No it was always stowed. Always stowed away.
BW: How did it feel when you were actually bombed and fuelled up ready to go and you’re at the threshold of the runway and you’d got the green light. Could you just talk us through that?
PB: Well -
BW: What you were feeling there and what you were doing?
PB: I experienced three feelings. Between briefing and going out to the aircraft, absolute terror. Once we delivered the bombs and the photoflash had gone off, wonderful. Once back eating bacon and eggs very, very satisfied. Those were the three emotions that I suffered.
BW: How did it feel when you were given that that green light? Presumably as a flight engineer you followed the pilot through on the throttles.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you feel this surge of power of the engines going.
PB: Yeah all all the while was concentrating on getting the thing up because the Stirling had a violent swing. It had this ridiculous undercarriage and because of the torque of the engines it swung to starboard and you had to correct that swing either on the throttles or the stick. Now, if you got a cross wind as well that swing could be quite dramatic and it went like that and then like that.
BW: So a violent swerve either way.
PB: The undercarriage just collapsed you don’t want an undercarriage collapsing when you’ve got a thousand -
BW: No.
PB: Incendiary bombs stuck in the belly [laughs].
BW: Were there any incidents where aircraft were unable to take off because of that? They perhaps didn’t control the swing or there was a cross wind.
PB: Oh yeah. The very first Stirling on its very first flight in the hands of a very skilled test pilot on its very first landing wrote its undercarriage off.
BW: Simply because of the swing due the power in the engines.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the imbalance.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And yet it looks from, as you say, the size of it -
PB: Yeah.
BW: It looks a very stable beast to fly.
PB: It’s incredibly strong that way. It’s not very strong that way.
BW: So longitudinally strength.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And laterally not so good.
PB: It was a very strong undercarriage but it’s so tall it [put a side strain on it] like that.
BW: Yeah.
PB: It goes. Time and time again.
BW: And of course these are pure manual controls. They’re not power assisted in any way.
PB: Oh no. No.
BW: So, but it was generally very smooth to fly and very easy to fly once you were airborne.
PB: Oh it was a beautiful aeroplane to fly. Beautiful. It really was. It was like a [? ] You could do anything with it.
BW: How many were, were in your crew? There were normally seven in a Lancaster.
PB: Seven yeah.
BW: The same in the Stirling.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you had initially for your first part of your tour you had Johnnie [Turton] as your navigator.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And your pilot. Who was your pilot?
PB: Pilot. When I joined him in May it was Pilot Officer Bernard Cotterell.
BW: That’s right.
PB: By the time we were shot down he was Acting Flight Lieutenant Bernard Cotterell.
BW: Is that C O T T E R -
PB: Yeah.
BW: I L L?
PB: Yeah. E L L.
BW: E L L. And so who are the, you mentioned your wireless op.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Um, who was Len -
PB: Len Smith. Bomb aimer was Alan Crowther.
BW: Alan Crowther.
PB: Yeah the rear gunner was John [Carp?] a Scotsman.
BW: John [Carp?]
PB: He was always known as Jock rather than John.
BW: Jock.
PB: And the new, the new mid upper gunner was a Newcastle lad called Ray Wall.
BW: Ray Wall.
PB: Yeah, Ray Wall. There were only five of us, as I say, left from the original crew and of those five I was the only survivor. The mid upper, the mid upper survived and this new navigator survived?
BW: And so from there we’ve looked at sort of the raids and the preparation for them. What sort of things would happen on the return to base? You’d obviously be debriefed but what form would that take?
PB: Well, we, we, we always flew at the recommended airspeeds which got you the most miles per gallon. A lot of people just simply flew back as fast as they could regardless of wasting petrol so we were invariably the last aircraft to land which meant we always had to queue up to wait to be de debriefed which was a nuisance but then of course it was the bacon and egg lark. Bacon and egg time and off to bed.
BW: And what, what was the accommodation like? You were all crewed up. Were they in nissen huts. Was there a crews either side or was it -
PB: We, we, we were in a nissen -
BW: Different.
PB: Hut and I think we shared it with two other crews and one morning, one morning you would find that half the beds are made up and all everything’s gone because they had disappeared but the thing is you never, you never associated with anybody outside your crew. There was no point to it.
BW: Really.
PB: No point to it at all. A crew was a very. very tight little, little group. We did everything together.
BW: And so even though there would be two other crews in the, in the nissen hut with you you would still socialise only with your own crew.
PB: Oh yeah we never bothered with anybody else. Very rarely spoke to anybody else even.
BW: And where did you go during your off-duty hours? Where did you socialise?
PB: Oh the village pub in Lakenheath.
BW: Do you recall the name?
PB: No, I don’t actually. No.
BW: Ah.
PB: But I do remember there was a Mrs Philips who used to provide us with suppers some times. Just across the road. She used to put on bacon and egg suppers. I don’t know where she got the bacon and eggs from but she used to put on bacon and egg suppers.
BW: Just as a special treat for you.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the rest of the crew.
PB: But you know you sit in the village pub at night and you were surrounded by farmers and butchers and bakers and all the rest of it. People for whom the war was just something they read about in the newspapers and you were just so happy, you’re so happy. It’s wonderful. There’s nothing like a crew. Nothing. Incredible relationship. Incredible.
BW: And did you have opportunity to mix with other locals? Not just the, the tradesman there, if you like, the farmers and the bakers or whatever?
PB: No. The only time we went out, off the camp was to go in to the little pub. On the nights we weren’t flying. We were in there every night we weren’t flying.
BW: Were there station dances at all or anything like that?
PB: No. There was no station. You’d the airfield there, you’ve the mess here and your billet over there and something else over there. If you didn’t have a bicycle you couldn’t exist in Lakenheath.
BW: So quite a distance between -
PB: Distances are immense. And I’ve visited it since the war. It’s an American town now.
BW: Yeah. It’s, it’s a huge place.
PB: Oh it’s a big place and when I, when I was there talking to them they produced some information about the wartime use and they spelt Stirling as if, as if it was the bloody currency [laughs].
BW: Were there, just out of interest, were there other crews in the pub where you went or was it pretty much just you guys?
PB: Well no doubt there were.
BW: Right.
PB: But we just sat in our corner and nothing else existed.
BW: Right.
PB: Nothing else existed.
BW: So tucked away in your own -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In your own little world.
PB: And there my skipper named my first daughter.
BW: Right.
PB: My skipper. I don’t know how we got on, how the conversation got around to that actually but one evening for some reason the skipper said if my wife and I were to ever have a daughter we were going to call her Penelope. I never forgot that and so very many years later when my first daughter was born she simply had to be Penelope. I had no choice.
BW: Well. As you say it obviously comes from being a tight crew.
PB: Yes.
BW: And that connection.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Ok. You mention then about your trip to Mannheim and this New Zealand navigator.
PB: Yeah.
BW: About your, of your crew.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Who, who got you shot down?
PB: Yeah.
BW: Just talk us through that if you would, please.
PB: Well we had a full petrol load which means a minimum bomb load of course. We were briefed for Munich and when briefing had been completed the CO said there’s a Mosquito on its way to Munich at the moment because it’s feared the weather may break down there so we’re going brief you for a possible alternative for Mannheim. So we had a second briefing then. Now, we’d no idea where we were going which meant of course the navigators had two flight plans to prepare. They’d doubled the work in the limited amount of time so they were under stress from the start. So we, we, we retire to our aircraft. Do all our pre-flight checks and the CO comes around in his van and says Munich is scrubbed. You’re going to Mannheim. So off we go. Immediately we cross enemy coast we were hit by flack. Now this had never ever happened to us before. He’d taken us straight over a, straight over a gun batt. I was shocked and I thought I’m going to spend, I’m going to spend the next hour checking the fuel in the hope we were losing fuel and we could turn back. And I went and did a meticulous check on the fuel but we weren’t losing fuel of course. Now, the raid was cleverly designed. You’ve got Ludwigshafen, the Rhine, Mannheim. If you fly over Ludwigshafen into Mannheim a creepback occurs. You get two targets for the price of one. And so that was the way we were to enter. So, to make sure we got it right for each wave of the attack the pathfinders was putting down a red marker. Now if you turn on a red marker on to the right course you flew straight over Ludwigshafen straight to Mannheim. So as we, as we were approaching the point where we could expect to see the flare the navigator says, ‘Keep your eyes open now. You should be seeing a red flare any time now.’ And suddenly there’s a red flare there and another red flare over there.
BW: So one to your left and one to your right.
PB: Yeah. So which, which is, which is the correct one? Only the navigator knows which is the correct one. ‘That one,’ he says.
BW: On the left.
PB: Nearer to the target. We get to the target five minutes early. The skipper makes what I still think was the right decision. He said we’d been hit by a bomb once at Nuremberg so we knew that. You’re either the only one over the target or the bombs are coming down from Lancasters. The skipper did an orbit but unfortunately the radar picked us up and as soon as we start to go in a blue searchlight comes straight on.
BW: Which is the radar guided one.
PB: Yeah and then then the column builds up and we’re flying straight over with the bomb doors open. So we continued like that until the bomb aimer got a sight and then you let the lot go in one go and we didn’t wait for a photograph. And over a target I always went up in to the astrodome facing backwards to help the gunner search for fighters and I was up there [ and we slowly began to pull away? ] and there were only a couple of searchlights on us and I thought I’d better check on my engines cause they’re getting a terrible thrashing. You’re only allowed a few minutes on full power so I get down, I get down from the pyramid and have a very long, I have a very long lead on my intercom so I can, don’t have to keep plugging and unplugging and I get down and I’m just going over to the instrument panel and suddenly there’s a terrible screaming and Len, Len the wireless operator had been just behind the main spar pushing out pushing out the window came running up through the main spar screaming, tripped over the pyramid, fell across my lead, pulled it out so I lost all communication and he fell at my feet and then this huge fire broke out in the fuselage and I’m steeling myself to stand and step over Leonard’s body to get to the fire extinguisher and out of the corner of my eye I see the mid upper gunner get out and put his chute on. I turn around. The navigator’s already on his way down the steps so instead of going for the extinguisher I go for my parachute and follow the navigator. I get to the top of the steps, the hatch is open. The navigator’s gone. I slide down. I get my feet through. The bomb aimer had gone up in to the second pilot’s seat to help the skipper. He started to clamber down from the, from the seat as I go past. I get my legs through. I feel a pressure on my back. I turn. Alan’s got his knees pressing in my back, tap him on the knee and go and as I go I feel the aircraft break in two and Alan never got out. So the rear gunner and Len were killed by the fighter. The skipper was wounded by flak that also set the port inner on fire and the skipper and Alan never had a chance of getting out because the aircraft had broken in two. The tail unit with the rear gunner’s body in it landed a considerable distance away. The main wreck landed right on the German Grand Prix racing track at Hockenheim.
BW: Wow.
PB: I have the map. I have a map showing the exact position and I saw the fire. It was a huge. We’d over a thousand gallons of petrol on board. We had enough petrol for Munich and the three in the aircraft were completely destroyed. Only, only fragments of bone left. The air gunners body was complete and so in the cemetery now at [Bad Tolz?] there’s a, there’s the rear gunners grave there, then there’s a headstone for Len, a headstone for the skipper, a headstone for Alan but what bits of fragments of bone there were are all buried in front of the skipper I’m sure. It was just symbolic. Never, never let the relatives know that of course. Never mention fire to the relatives but those two graves were empty and what bits there were were in front of the skipper which is right and proper.
BW: And you, you must have been pretty close to the ground when you baled out yourself.
PB: No. Oh, no. I was about ten thousand feet.
BW: Oh right. It was, it was the sense I was getting that it was almost a last minute sort of thing where you were able to escape.
PB: No. No, the aircraft broke in two very quickly. It was a tremendous. What happened I think the JU88 killed the rear gunner and then from, there’s a pump on the starboard engine, and dual pipelines to the rear turret that power the turret. Now I think it hit those pipelines. You’ve got hydraulic oil pressure, high pressure, high temperature came out and that’s what caught fire. The fire then came underneath the mid upper gunner, hit Len when he was doing the window in and stopped before it reached me but it was, it was a terror, it certainly was a fire and although I didn’t know till much later virtually simultaneously flak knocked out the port engine and the port inner engine and wounded the skipper and Ray, Ray told me later that when the skipper gave the order to bail out he [signed to say] as if he was badly hurt.
BW: And then at that point, the stricken aircraft, it must be almost I guess vertical if it’s broken up at that point.
PB: It didn’t, it didn’t go like that when it hit the ground it was it just come straight down like that.
BW: Yeah.
PB: I dare say some of it is still there buried under that racetrack. Some of the engine. But later I had a friend in Germany who was, who was in Ludwigshafen. He lived in Ludwigshafen. He was a schoolboy in Ludwigshofen. He may well have been on the flak gun that night for all I know.
BW: That would have been a coincidence wouldn’t it?
PB: Well after, he worked for the postal service after the war and when he retired he set himself up as what he called an air historian and he excavated a lot of shot down bombers and he was very keen on Bomber Command and he provided me with a lot of information and he produced a woman who’d been a schoolgirl in Hockenheim and on the morning after we crashed, after we were shot down, a neighbouring woman knocked on her door and she had what they described as a Canadian airman with them. It was in fact a New Zealander and the girl’s mother gave him a drink of water and later in the day the girl’s interest was aroused and she and a girlfriend went out to look at the crash and she provided me with a map of the actual crash site just by the, so whenever the German Grand Prix comes on I always, always watch it for a few minutes. I don’t like grand prix racing but I always watch it for a few minutes.
BW: Just that particular one.
PB: Yeah. That’s where it crashed.
BW: And have you been back to Hockenheim at all?
PB: No. No, I’ve not. No, I’ve not.
BW: But the information’s come through to you.
PB: Yeah.
BW: As to what’s happened.
PB: Peter provided me with a lot of information.
BW: What’s the air historian’s name? Do you recall?
PB: Peter Mengas M E N Mengas G A S.
BW: G A S.
PB: Peter.
BW: And is he still around?
PB: I don’t know. I’ve not, I’ve not heard from him for a year or two now.
BW: So you’ve managed to get out of the aircraft yourself.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And this is night-time. About ten thousand feet over Germany.
PB: Yeah 1 o’clock. It was just about midnight on my watch. It was 1 o’clock in the morning German time.
BW: And you pulled the rip cord and -
PB: Well, no. This was the problem when I, when I first joined the squadron I got a harness which could be adjusted. Now, I moved about a lot in the Stirling. I’ve controls there, there, there and there.
BW: All around the -
PB: And I used to [bend down?] around number seven tank and the shoulder strap would fall off and I thought I’ll get this fixed but I never did of course so when I baled out I was terrified of falling out of my parachute so I daren’t open it until I got myself you know [? ] as I could.
BW: Sort of braced against the straps were they?
PB: And when I opened it and I felt oh that’s it but it wasn’t that was just the parachute pulling the pack off my chest and then bang.
BW: The snap of the canopy.
PB: And I took all the weight there. The shoulder straps were up here. I came down in agony. I don’t know why it didn’t castrate me.
BW: Because of the tight grip around the -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Groin area where the -
PB: And then when I eventually I saw the ground rushing up and I rolled myself into a ball as I’d been taught and this buckle took two ribs with it.
BW: On the left hip.
PB: Yeah. Broke, broke two, broke two of my ribs and so I, it was, it was very painful. Very painful. And this is funny really by the next day my left side had seized up and I’m walking in a westerly direction trying to get to France [laughs] and, I don’t know and there was just one house which I had to pass and I thought, I thought a girl stood in the window had spotted me. I wasn’t certain but I thought she had. Anyway, I kept going and suddenly I hear a shout and I turn around and there’s this chappy running towards me and running behind him is a woman, presumably his wife and the two things I didn’t believe. I didn’t believe that fighting men put their hands above their heads like the baddies in the cowboy films and I didn’t believe the Germans went around saying. ‘Heil Hitler,’ to each other but as this chappy approached without any conscious effort on my part my hands went up. This one went up. This one wouldn’t.
BW: Your right one.
PB: He saw me like. He stopped running [?]and, ‘Heil Hitler.’
BW: So because you can’t raise your left arm you can only raise your right arm he thinks you’re doing the salute.
PB: He thought I was a Luftwaffe chappy. ‘Heil Hitler,’ he said [laughs] Well, I just I was in a pretty perilous state by this time. I just collapsed in to hysterical laughter. I just stood there and laughed and laughed and laughed and his wife came along and she sized up the situation immediately. She put her arm around me, took my weight on her shoulder and led me towards the town and the very first house we came to she made a very, very cross old woman let me into her kitchen, sit me down and made me a cup of coffee. So this woman very unwillingly gave me a cup of coffee. I hadn’t drunk anything for twenty four hours and I took a sip and I thought, ‘Bloody hell, I can’t drink this. It’s absolutely disgusting,’ and I thought, ‘Well if I don’t drink it it’s a great insult to this woman who’s been so incredibly kind to me,’ so I had to drink it. That was my introduction to the German diet oooph [laughs].
BW: And so you managed from a rough landing in a loose parachute in God knows where -
PB: Yeah.
BW: To get yourself together. You didn’t meet any of the other crew at this point because you obviously talked about -
PB: The -
BW: Yourself.
PB: The mid upper gunner landed right next to a railway signal box and was arrested within seconds. The navigator landed in a tree and had to be rescued. So they were captured very quickly. Both of them.
BW: So there was just you on your own at this point.
PB: I was on my own.
BW: Were you knocked unconscious or, or did it take some time to come around? I mean you’ve obviously had to get rid of your chute and -
PB: No I, I, I was shocked. I was shocked obviously and I was in pain from these ribs but I said I’ve a duty to the RAF and that was to get to Gibraltar. [Laughs] It’s a long way away.
BW: Yeah.
PB: I’d got the Rhine to cross for one thing. That’s not, that’s not easy. [laughs].
BW: And so the, the people that, that met you I mean you talk about heading west towards France and Mannheim is, is quite deep in western Germany.
PB: Yeah.
BW: So you’re actually being met by Germans at this point.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But they assist you.
PB: Yeah.
BW: So what then happened? Did they, they pass you on? Or -
PB: Well this couple took me to the police station where the other two were already held although I didn’t know it and we were kept there for about three days and a couple of Luftwaffe chappies arrived to take us up to Frankfurt to Dulag Luft interrogation camp and when we left we were given a bundle of the rear gunner’s clothing and his flying suit had hundreds of holes in it. The cannon shells must have hit the turret and exploded, it was absolutely riddled and his helmet and his, his oxygen mask was soaked in blood and there were the four guns from the rear turret as well. So we had that to carry. And we had, we had an adventurous journey. We couldn’t, it, this was the most successful raid on Mannheim Ludwigshafen at that time and it was complete chaos and we had to go by train in to a big detour so we travelled that day and went to a Luftwaffe camp and stayed the night in the guard room there and the next day we go back to the railway station and it was a, it’s a station something like Victoria in Manchester. A long corridor with steps going up to the various platforms. We were on the platform and what I call a typical Daily Express German came along, feather in his hat and oh he was furious he was furious and Hitler had issued an order to all military and police units that if civilians get hold of airmen before the authorities do the authorities were not to interfere. They must leave it to the discretion of the civilians what to do with them and this one was stark raving, oh he was angry. And in the air force there’s an offence known as silent contempt. You don’t do anything but you look at an officer who’s ticking you off and look at him and make it obvious you think he’s [lowly?] and it’s a serious crime in the air force. Well Ray and I were giving this chappy the silent cont and the navigator said, ‘Stop being a bloody fool.’ He was a good deal older than we were and eventually this chap storms off and we thought, ‘Oh that’s shown him.’ A few minutes later he’s back at the head, the head of a posse and they’re obviously, obviously intent on doing us serious bodily harm but fortunately there was, there was a train on the other side of the platform. Now, whether it was a troop train or not I don’t know but half a dozen soldiers got out and ranged themselves between us and the, and this crowd and our two Luftwaffe chappies whipped us down the stairs, along the corridor and up another platform and hid us in a room that was obviously used by guards full of red and green lamps and flags and so on and we hid in there until our train arrived and then ran back as fast as we could and got put on the train. But it was, when we thought about it later we were very nearly hanged or beaten to death or kicked to death or something very near but it was only, it was only those soldiers who saved us and that was contrary to Hitler’s orders.
BW: Because the RAF crews at this time presumably were being christened terror flieger.
PB: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BW: And so the civilians were -
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Properly against them.
PB: Well there were a hundred Bomber Command people were killed by Germans and more than two hundred Americans because Americans, there were a lot more Americans. They had ten to a crew.
BW: And at this point in a station as you mention they’ve reunited you with the navigator and -
PB: Yeah. Well they were in the police station. Unknown to me at the time.
BW: Yeah.
PB: I met them when we got out of the police station. But before I left they gave me a shave. A fierce little barber came in and then he got out this razor and I thought, ‘I hope to God the air raid sirens don’t go off.’ [laughs]
BW: Yeah ‘cause he might, he might stop shaving you and decide to use the razor for something else.
[laughs]That’s the only time I’ve been shaved with a cut throat razor. I don’t want to ever experience it again. [laughs]
BW: So they’ve tidied you up and reunited you as a crew.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Presumably they didn’t interrogate you at this point even though you were in a police station. The Luftwaffe officers took you over and put you in a transport. Is that right?
PB: Yeah. We were taken, we were taken to Dulag Luft at Frankfurt and there I was put in a cell there. Quite a big cell really. It had, it had, it had a very long radiator attached to one wall and there was a bed attached to the floor alongside a radiator and there was a table and two chairs and there’s a bucket in the corner and two windows with shutters on from outside and a very dim light. No ventilation and all I could do was lie flat on my back with these ribs and although it was mid-September the heat on the radiator was turned up full. So I lay there for three days getting hotter and dirtier and stickier and the air getting fouler and fouler and then suddenly somebody opened the shutters. A very smart Luftwaffe officer walked in with a couple of files under his arm, put them on the table opened the windows wide and motioned for me to join him, poured two cups of English tea, a plate of English biscuits, a packet of English cigarettes and then the interrogation started.
BW: And at this point is there just you and this Luftwaffe officer?
PB: Yeah.
BW: In this cell?
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so he’s expected you to get up from the floor to the chair to sit in front of him. Nobody has assisted you at this point?
PB: No. No. No.
BW: So presumably your body’s quite stiff as well.
PB: Very very stiff indeed. Very stiff. I never -
BW: Well -
PB: I never had any medical attention at all. Never. I’ve got a great knob of bone there that will never heal.
BW: And so the interrogation begins and presumably, from what you’re staying, this is daytime at this point.
PB: Yeah. When he put these files down on the table there were two of them and the top one said Royal Air Force Bomber Command 149 squadron. I thought, ‘How the hell does he know 149?’ I said, ‘I wonder if the others had been forced to talk,’ and I had pictures of Humphrey Bogart being tortured by [laughs] but it was obvious the rear part of the fuselage wasn’t burned and the letters OJ. So, he gave me, he have me a great deal of information. First, generally about the air force and then specifically about 149 squadron.
BW: And because the letters on the aircraft had not burned through.
PB: No the -
BW: So the squadron’s code OJ were still visible.
PB: OJ means 149. They knew that so as I understood it he was trying to do two things. He was giving me a lot of information most of it factual but some which he picked up and he hadn’t had checked yet [or someone had corrected] and from my reaction [he got?] and then he picked up bits from me that he could put. That was the whole purpose of it. I don’t know what did affect the war effort. I don’t think very much. Anyway, eventually he finished and this was the middle of September and he said, ‘Are there any questions you want to ask me?’ I said, ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘What’s been happening in the war in the last few days?’ He said, ‘Italy has surrendered.’ I said, ‘Oh good. One down, one to go.’ [laughs] Well he didn’t like that [laughs] so he picked up his files and he left.
BW: You weren’t tempted to salute him either.
PB: But when we, when we were being transferred by cattle truck from Dulag Luft to Saxony to Stalag 4b we were in these cattle trucks and we had a German guard in with us and we had with us at one stage the only German I ever felt sorry for. He’d been born in Germany and when he was a very small child his people had gone to America. He’d been brought up in Brooklyn. He had a tremendous Brooklyn accent and he’d, they’d never taken American nationality and early in ‘39 or late in ‘38 they’d come to Germany on holiday and he was immediately conscripted and there he was [laughs]. Oh dear. So I’d never known anybody feel as sorry for himself as that poor fella. He said, he described his comrades, he said, ‘Bloody mother f***ing, c**k s***ng krauts,’ and those were his comrades [laughs].
BW: And they didn’t speak American -
PB: Deary, deary me,
BW: So he got away with it.
PB: Oh he did feel sorry for himself. And I’ve often wondered what happened to him because when the Ardennes offensive took place Hitler put a lot of American speaking Germans into American uniforms and of course they were shot immediately if they were captured. He was an absolutely perfect candidate for that job.
BW: Yeah. Quite possible.
PB: So I don’t know what happened to him but oh deary me he did feel sorry for himself
BW: And so it seems a fairly, alright it’s uncomfortable but it seems a fairly civil interrogation from the Luftwaffe officer before you -
PB: Oh it was very friendly. Very friendly very friendly. I mean I’d been lying in there for three days thinking about Jimmy Cagney and Humphrey Bogart and it was nothing like that [laughs]. No, he was charming. Really charming.
BW: And how soon after the interrogation ended and he stormed out did you then leave for er -
PB: Well I left the cell then went to the main part of the camp and stayed there for about a week until there was enough of us to make up a wagon load.
BW: And this was still at Dulag Luft.
PB: Yeah.
BW: In Frankfurt.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so you’re there a little while longer transferred to Saxony.
PB: Yeah and we were lucky and we were unlucky. We were unlucky in the fact that all the luft camps run by the Luftwaffe were full and so we were sent to the biggest prison camp in Germany which was run by the army. It contained about ten thousand permanently and it had scores of working parties attached to it so that prisoners used to come in and get recorded and then sent out to work in mines or factories or quarries or whatever so there was a regular turnover. There was about ten thousand of us there permanently but a tremendous lot of Frenchmen, a couple of thousand Russians who were starving to death and various other nationalities and of course the German army didn’t have the same relationship with us that the Luftwaffe personnel would have had. In fact they hated us.
BW: Was there any, any ill will directed towards you because you were air force?
PB: They didn’t like us. They told us, they said, ‘When Germany wins the war you’ll spend the rest of your lives building the cities that you’ve destroyed but if Germany lose the war you’re soon to be shot.’ That was their attitude.
BW: And even though this was an army camp they, it sounds as though they weren’t just, were they just military personnel? The ten thousand French and Russians were they soldiers that were captured?
PB: Well I don’t know what they were.
BW: So they could have been.
PB: They were dressed in civilian, some in civilian clothes,
BW: Yeah.
PB: Some in bits of clothes. Some were in military uniform but we were lucky too because this was September. Italy had retired from the war. The Germans had taken over the Italian prison camps and they set up two new compounds in 4b. An RAF compound and an army compound. Now, a couple of thousand Desert Rats who’d been prisoners in Italy came in just as we did. Now, without them we’d have been in a right mess because the Germans gave us nothing.
BW: So you were on low rations and you were, were you made to work at this stage as well?
PB: No. No. They couldn’t make us work. Not with our ranks.
BW: Right.
PB: But you know we were put into a hut which has three tier bunks to sleep a hundred and eighty men. They gave us a sack which contained something or other which was supposed to be a mattress, two pre- First World War blankets and that was, that was all they gave us. No knife, fork, spoon, no cup, no plate. Nothing. And yet the food comes up, a great big vat of soup and all you’ve got’s your bare hands. So the army helped us a lot there.
BW: Presumably because they were allowed or brought with them their kit and they shared it.
PB: They brought with all their kit, yeah. Yeah. I mean they’d been prisoners years some of them.
BW: So they knew, they knew how it worked.
PB: They knew the ropes so yeah they knew the ropes alright but the difference between the army and the air force was, was, was incredible. The army compound was run like a barracks. There was a sergeant major in charge of each hut. Total control. And each morning at 7 o’clock there was roll calls outside in decent weather. The roll call in the army compound took fifteen minutes. The roll call in the RAF compound could take two hours. That was the difference in our attitudes. The army would say, ‘We’ll show them what real soldiers look like.’ and we’d say, ‘We’ll cause them so much bloody trouble they’ll wish they’d never been born.’ Different attitude of mind altogether.
BW: And so this is the, the British army in their compound.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Organising themselves to do their roll calls -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Like that.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the RAF took the view well we’re there to -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Make a nuisance of ourselves.
PB: That’s it exactly. One day the Germans got so exasperated they brought the senior sergeant major and they stood him there and we’re all lined up in fives and he starts telling us we’re a disgrace to the bloody nation, we’re a disgrace to the air force and the replies he got. He’d never been spoken to like that in his life before. Never, ever, ever. He just went redder and redder and redder. Eventually, he turned on his heel and went and we never saw him again.
BW: Gave that one up as well.
PB: I know we really, we really did everything we could and we tamed the Germans eventually and it went whenever a German entered our hut whoever saw him first would shout, ‘Jerry up’ and whatever you were doing you could get away. At the end of the war the German would walk in to the hut, he’d stand at the door and shout, ‘Jerry up’ and wait two minutes before he walked in.
BW: It’s interesting you, you made a comment just before that although the Germans gave you nothing they didn’t make you work either because of your rank.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the thinking was in the, in the early days with the RAF aircrew was that if they were all sergeants they would be treated better in prisoner of war camps.
PB: Not treated better, just treated differently in that they didn’t work.
BW: Right. So it was a case of you’re not made to work you were just -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Well you were just there and you exist, sort of thing.
PB: Yeah and the food of course was disgusting. The flour was ten percent what the Germans optimistically called wood flour. Which was sawdust. We, we, we had soup at lunchtime. A great vat of soup. We had [minute?] soup which was disgusting. We had [mara?] soup which was even more disgusting and most disgusting of all we had a soup that apparently was made from what was left of sugar beet after the beet er after the sugar had been extracted and we got a handful of boiled potatoes, usually rotten. That was the midday meal and then in the late afternoon you got a piece of bread to be divided between five people and a blob of white stuff which was supposed to be butter, it was about ninety percent water, and a spoonful of jam apparently made from beetroot or swede or some such and you’d get this piece of bread and it’s not a big piece of bread and it’s got to be shared between five people and every, every one of the five pieces had to be absolutely identical with the other four so we picked the man with the best irons and steadiest hand and he cuts the bread up and he gets last choice and the five pieces and he gets the last choice.
BW: And it went on like that for days.
PB: But we had the Red Cross parcels fortunately.
BW: How often were they delivered? Were they regular?
PB: Every Monday we got a Red Cross parcel.
BW: And were they delivered intact or were they interfered and inspected by the Germans.
PB: They were delivered intact until it was decided that they were being used in escapes and so after that they were all opened and every tin was punctured so that it had a limited lifespan. You couldn’t, you couldn’t store it up.
BW: And you see in war films, popular war films, the sort of black market operating in a prison camp and trading and bartering. Does that, did that ever happen?
PB: Oh yes, it was all, with cigarettes you could buy anything. Now in the RAF compound we had two people. We had an English and an Italian name. A chappy called [Gargini]
BW: [Gargini]
PB: Now he was, he was a skilled technician in British, in BBC television and he was an absolute wizard with the electricity. He built at least two radio sets and he also made a succession of heaters, immersion heaters, which you could put in a cup of cold water and fire up in no time at all. And we had another chap who was in fact was a civilian. Terry Hunt his name was. He worked for British Movietone news or some similar company and if you went to the cinema in England during the war from time to time to time on the newsreel you’d see shots taken from the nose of a light bomber during attacks on France. Now Terry was one of the men who took those photographs. He was given a degree of training. He was given an RAF uniform, he was given a RAF number, an RAF rank just in case he was shot down and captured and he had a camera. He had it inside a hollowed out bible with a little hole in the spine through which he took his photographs. Two quite remarkable men there.
BW: And that, that bible with the camera in he used in the aircraft and he kept with him in the prison camp did he?
PB: No. He got it whilst he was in the prisoner.
BW: Oh made it in the prison right.
PB: How he got through well cigarettes you could get anything with cigarettes. You could buy a woman for three cigarettes but there were no women.
BW: And in that case there must have been some sort of interaction with the German guards at that point -
PB: Oh yes.
BW: To be able to bribe.
PB: You waited. You waited until after dark and then you went out and found a guard and said [?] ‘Yah yah yah,’ out it came from a bag in his gas mask case gave him this bit of bread ‘[?] cigarettes?’ ‘Nein. [?]Nein. Deutschland caput’ [laughs]
BW: A piece of bread for twenty cigarettes.
PB: But you could buy anything with cigarettes.
BW: And did you partake in that yourself, did you?
PB: Oh yeah I was out most nights if I had cigarettes buying bread. It was, it was much better bread than we had. It was rotten bread but it was much better bread than we had.
BW: And did you, did you feel able to strike up a rapport or even an element of trust with some of these guards. Were you always meeting the same one or did you have to interact with others?
PB: No, whoever happened to be walking around the compound at the time. Some relationships must have been, must have been formed because big items were bought and of course if there were ever workmen in the camp all their tools were raided. They soon [? ] their tools.
BW: So there were, there were guys in the camp who were raiding the Germans’ tool sets.
PB: Yeah you see we, we had, you know, you got hundreds of air crew. You’ve got a couple of thousand senior NCOs in the army. You’ve got every talent. You’ve got architects, musicians, dancers, journalists. You got all sorts of people and it was amazing what could be done.
BW: And I believe they had classes in the prisoner of war camps as well to keep the men occupied.
PB: Oh yes. We, we had a little library in each hut. Some of them manned by professional librarians, we had lecturers. We had, we had a theatre group and a radio theatre group. We had people who went around individually giving lectures. The most popular lecturer was a chappy, an army man, who’d worked for a very prestigious London undertaking firm and the stories he had. Oh deary me. Deary, deary me. He was a popular lecturer he was.
BW: And so was your days, were your days regulated in any sense? Was there a structure put to you?
PB: No. You had a roll call in the morning, a roll call in the evening. That was it. And then you had the food arriving at mid-day and again about tea time and other than that you were on your own.
BW: So would you have about two meals a day then? Your main midday meal and a meal in the evening?
PB: I don’t think we ever had a meal at all really [laughs].
BW: Well, yeah.
PB: But yeah that’s the way it worked.
BW: Yeah.
PB: On Fridays, on Fridays, Friday was a big day. On Friday you got pea soup and pea soup was so good we didn’t get any potatoes on Friday. Well pea soup was the only soup we ever really ate. The pea soup was quite good.
BW: And do you still like it to this day or does that remind you?
PB: I like pea soup. Yes.
BW: Yeah.
PB: But we Lancastrians had a Red Rose Society. The Yorkists had a White Rose Society and there was a motoring club for people interested in cars or motorbikes. There were all sorts, all sorts of things set up. Every hut was given the name of a British football team. My hut was Wolverhampton Wanderers and a league was set up and matches were played and points scored and then in the RAF compound we formed the rugby pitch as well, I played a lot of rugby.
BW: Even, even though you’d had a bad injury from parachuting you were still able to play rugby.
PB: Eventually. It took, it took, it took about six months until I felt really free but -
BW: Did you manage to get any medical treatment from the British -
PB: No.
BW: While you were in the camp?
PB: Never. Never. I never bothered the British. By then it was healing. They even, even tried to play cricket but that didn’t work. The ground was too soft.
BW: What sort of ground was it? Was it sandy?
PB: It was sort of sandy soil, yeah.
BW: So and we’ve probably all have an image here of Sagan and the Great Escape -
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the sandy -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Sort of soil
PB: Yeah.
BW: And it was pretty much like that was it?
PB: When I played rugby every time I I got a graze and there was any blood it always went, always went rotten. I always had to go and get it, get it drugged up always, always went rotten.
BW: And what sort of drugs could they give you? Was there penicillin?
PB: Red Cross. Red Cross I don’t know what they were but the Red Cross provided drugs and we had, we had certain medical. We had a couple of army doctors as well. We had an English woman in the camp.
BW: Do you recall her name at all?
PB: Well we knew her as Mrs Barrington. She was an English woman. I don’t know whether she was divorced or widowed but sometime in the 20s or very early 30s she had a son called Winston and they had a holiday in Switzerland and met a German who got on very well with and they went back again a few months later and she married him and she and her son went to live in Germany. And then when, when 1938, ‘39 came along and war was obviously imminent she sent her son back to England to live with her parents and in due course he joined the air force in Bomber Command, got shot down, wrote to her where she was living in Vienna and she wrote back and eventually she decided she wanted to be nearer to him then that so she left Vienna and went to live in Muhlburg which was about five kilometres from the camp.
BW: Muhlberg.
PB: Muhlberg yeah and by this time her husband was a very high ranking Luftwaffe officer and when she moved to Muhlberg her husband came with her and we know that he visited the camp and we know that he met the commandant but we don’t know what happened there of course. We don’t know whether some informal arrangement was agreed between them or whatever but it was a fact that airmen were never allowed outside the camp because they’d just disappear but Barrington got outside the camp with French working parties several times, met his mother in Muhlberg and by early 1945 she was getting worried about what her fate would be when the Russians arrived and he reported that to the, to the escape committee and they decided she should be brought into the camp and the next time he went out he took some spare clothes [and met her] she came in to the camp, put in to RAF battledress and was hidden away under the stage in the theatre and stayed there for a few weeks till the end of the war. Not only until the end of the war but until we got away from the Russians but it took us a month to get away from the Russians.
BW: So you mention there about hiding her under the stage in the theatre -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In RAF battle dress uniform.
PB: Yeah.
BW: How did the, the tide of war affect you because many prisoners were forced on the long march but presumably if you were in Saxony in sort of lower -
PB: Yeah.
BW: South eastern Germany. Were you part of that of that -
PB: No.
BW: To evacuate the camps.
PB: No we weren’t in Poland. We were in Germany. Now, by this time the air was full of British and American fighter bombers. Everything that moved was attacked and the commandant gave us the opportunity, ‘If you want to be marched west across the Elbe we’ll take you,’ and the Poles of course jumped at that chance. They didn’t want to be with the Russians. And we said, ‘No. We’ll stay where we are until our allies arrive.’ [Laughs] Our allies.
BW: So you all managed to stay in the camp without being evacuated.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so this Mrs Barrington stayed in the -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Theatre at this time.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Under your protection.
PB: Yeah she kept hidden. Eventually, when the, when the Russians arrived they made no arrangements whatever for us and so all we could do was break down this perimeter fence and stream out into the countryside to search for food and that went on for about three days and then the Russians got themselves organised and clamped down on it. We came and got a bargaining counter. They held thousands of British and Americans and there were tens of hundreds of thousands of Russians in the west and the Russians wanted them back. Many, many of them even wore German uniforms and they knew if they went back they knew what their fate would be so they didn’t want to go back so there was a lot of bargaining and we were part of the Russians strong hand and then they marched us out of the camp, marched quite a considerable distance and they put us into what was obviously a big maintenance depot full of huge workshops and we were billeted there and still nothing was happening so we began to drift off in twos and threes and tried to make our way across the river on our own which eventually we did. We, we were relieved by the Russians on St George’s Day, the 23rd of April and I reached the American lines on my 24th birthday. The 23rd of May. Exactly one month later. And then it was like moving from hell in to heaven. I lived for a week on steak and ice cream.
BW: You didn’t, you’d been on such bad rations there was no problem moving to that sort of -
PB: No. No. Never had any -
BW: High protein diet.
PB: A lot of people spent a lot of time sat down with their trousers around their ankles [laughs]
BW: You obviously had a tougher constitution.
PB: Yeah -
BW: So it didn’t affect you.
PB: It didn’t affect me. But oh it was great with the Americans. Even went to the cinema. They had a mobile cinema. I saw a film about a book which I’d read whilst in Germany. And then, then we were flown by Dakota to Brussels and handed over to the British. We arrived in Brussels on a Saturday afternoon. The British gave us a ten shilling note and a handful of Belgian coins and turned us loose on Brussels for a Saturday night [laughs]. And the next day we climbed on board a Stirling and flew back to Kent and from Kent we went up to Cosford which was a receiving centre and Cosford had been my first station in 1940.
BW: So this was almost a reverse of your trip out there because you’d gone out on a Stirling.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And then you were flown back from Brussels to Kent in a Stirling.
PB: In a Stirling.
BW: How did it feel to be back on your old sort of type of plane again?
PB: Oh it was funny really. About, about four Stirlings and one Lancaster landed and everybody but me and two other fellas ran for the one Lancaster. [laughs] I was more than happy to get into a Stirling.
BW: And that, that night in Brussels when you’d got a ten shilling note in your hand.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And a few Belgian pennies that must have been pretty memorable. How did it, how did it feel?
PB: I had a terrible emotional shock. There was a great big underground convenience and I was stood in there weeing away and in walked two women cleaners [laughs] and that rather set me back. I don’t remember much about what happened that night actually. I know I’d no money left at the end of it.
BW: Justifiably lost in celebration I think.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so you were only twenty four at that stage.
PB: I’d just had my twenty fourth birthday, yes.
BW: And you, I guess you got, in retrospect, you got back to the UK pretty quick. I mean the war had only been over sort of three weeks when you were then passed over to the, to the British.
PB: Yeah.
BW: In May.
PB: Yeah.
BW: ‘Cause obviously some guys in service had to wait a long time to be repatriated.
PB: Oh some didn’t get back until well after the September.
BW: And so when you get back to Cosford.
PB: Yeah.
BW: What happened then? Were you able to, I mean, were you still in touch with your other crewmates at this point in your -
PB: No. No. Long lost them somewhere along the way. We were, first of all we were made to give a written description of how we were shot down which seemed to me to be to be a waste of time and then we were medically examined and bathed and haircuts and kitted out with new uniform and then we were sent on six weeks leave on double rations and by this time of course I’d been, I’d been qualified long enough to have become a warrant officer. And I had a lot of back pay. Got paid all the time.
BW: And how, how did they pay you? ‘Cause now it goes straight into your bank account but then did they give you cash?
PB: Cash.
BW: Or did they give you a cheque?
PB: I can’t remember. I can’t remember. I didn’t have a bank account so I don’t, I don’t really know. I know I had a lot of money to come. Several hundred pounds. I’d earned it. [laughs]
BW: Absolutely.
PB: I’d done more damage to German morale as a prisoner than I ever did as - [laughs]
BW: If I can, if I can just hop back to a point you made in the camp. You said there was an escape committee.
PB: Yes.
BW: And as I say they’re sort of impressions of, of “The Great Escape” come to mind. Were there any escape attempts made there?
PB: Oh yes there were people escaping all the time.
BW: Successfully?
PB: A couple of hours, two days. Maybe a week if you were lucky.
BW: So there was quite an active escape -
PB: Oh yes, yes.
BW: Committee from the RAF there.
PB: Oh yes there was a lot of escaping. What, what, what was a popular thing from time to time a British soldiers would come through the camp to be registered and recorded and photographed etcetera and then sent out on working parties and some airmen got the idea it would be easier to escape from a working party then from the camp and so they exchanged identities and this in the end caused tremendous confusion to the Germans because there was a New Zealand soldier, a Desert Rat who’d been captured and held in prison in Italy and he’d escaped and got in with a with a group of partisans and as he was the only professional as it were amongst the partisans he soon became their leader and he carried out minor acts of sabotage and he became a sort of Robin Hood and rumours were circulated about this new Zealander who was doing this, that and the other and the Germans got to learn of this and eventually they captured him and they decided to send him to Germany for trial but it wasn’t known whether he was to go to Berlin or to Leipzig so as 4b was about halfway between the two he came to 4b and was locked up in the [straflagge] and there he made contact with French working parties. French used to work in there regularly and the French notified the British and it was known that if he went to either Berlin or Leipzig and was put on trial he’d be found guilty and he’d be shot and so they decided that he had to be rescued and a plot was formed and the French removed a window from the room where the showers were in the [straflagge] and put it back in a temporary position and he was briefed that when it was known that he was going to leave he was to insist upon having a shower and he was to go in to the shower room and escape from this window and be smuggled in to the camp and one day quite out of the blue we were all told to get over to the French compound as quickly as we could and to start a riot and we all got there and started fighting and jostling and messing and shouting and all the German cars were rushing to the French compound and this chappie escaped and he was hidden above a ceiling in a hut up in the dark, in the rafters and remained hidden until the end of the war. And the gestapo arrived and they made our lives hell for a week and they tore the camp to pieces and eventually we put about the rumour that he’d now left the camp and was on a train going to Switzerland so they all moved out to Switzerland [laughs] to the railway lines then and we were left in peace but he remained in the camp until the end of the war and eventually got back to New Zealand.
BW: Wow.
PB: Remarkable story.
BW: I mean yeah he was -
PB: I’ve got his name somewhere in a book but I can’t remember it off hand.
BW: It would be interesting to, to find his name and look him up.
PB: Well I can get it for you.
BW: Doesn’t, doesn’t need to be straightaway. We can get that afterwards.
PB: I can get it for you in a flash.
BW: Ok well just pause the recording for a moment.
PB: So we’re just looking at a book here called “Survival In Stalag Luft 4b”
BW: Yeah.
PB: And his name is Tony Hunt.
BW: Terry.
PB: Terry.
BW: Terry Hunt.
[pause]
PB: 136
[pause]
PB: Frederick William Ward he’s called.
BW: Frederick William Ward.
PB: Yeah. Born in February 1912. Captured in North Africa in July ‘42. [pause] That will tell you about him there.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Fred Ward and this is, this is in the book by Tony Vercoe um which I’ll look up.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Um it says that he, he was captured and then interrogated and then will go into more detail about the activities with the French workers as you say. There’s a description there.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And then this lady you mentioned is called Florence Barrington.
PB: That’s right. Mrs Barrington.
BW: With a thirteen year old son, married a German photographer and that also gives us the correct name of, just so that I’ve got it right, Muhlberg M U H L B E R G so that helps identify -
PB: Yeah. Muhlberg.
BW: The camp.
PB: Muhlberg on the Elbe.
BW: Yeah. What I’ll do if you don’t mind I’ll have a look at this separately and sort of off air of the recording.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But that, that’s great that is good information.
PB: Yes. You’ve got the full story there.
BW: So we were talking just briefly before about some of the escape attempts and how you’d helped to rescue this New Zealander from, from being shot.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Were there any other memorable attempts at all?
PB: Yes. Yes, there was one other memorable one. I had a friend, Fred Heathfield, who was a Halifax pilot with 51 squadron. He’d been shot, he’d crashed landed a Halifax on three engines in the pitch dark in Belgium and lived to tell the tale and I think the only thing that kept him alive was that he had his parachute on his chest and that took the main force of the impact. He got two black eyes and a broken nose. He was eventually captured in an hotel in Paris but he was, he was a pilot. I was a flight engineer. There was a Luftwaffe field a few kilometres away from the camp and Fred and I decided that if we could steal a JU88 we could fly at low level to Sweden and we, we started to try to get some information about German aircraft but by this time the Germans had issued a warning to all prison camps saying that because of the seriousness of the war situation there were certain areas of Germany which could not be identified but which were of importance to the, to the safety of the country and anybody caught in such an area without authority would be shot out of hand so we decided not to bother and we gave what information we had to an Australian pilot. What was his name? I’ve got a book by him in there. Anyway, this Australian pilot had a Canadian bomb aimer in his crew and I think he’d been brought up in the French speaking part of Canada because he spoke French like a native and also had quite a good knowledge of German and they decided that they would put this plan into operation but instead of flying to Sweden they would fly east and land behind Russian lines and give themselves over which to me sounded like a suicide note. And they left the camp. They went they went out with a work, we agreed to provide cover for three days so for three days the Germans wouldn’t know they were missing and they went out with a working party and disappeared and it was the night of Dresden. The night they went out was the night of Dresden and they, they, they walked. They were stopped several times and were able to convince whoever stopped them that they were French volunteers who were being moved from one job to another job and were on their way there and they got to this airfield and they lay up in the woods surrounding the airfield to watch what was going on and a JU88 landed and it was refuelled and they thought that’s it. So they find a log of wood and they picked it up and put it on their shoulders and marched to the edge of the airfield, put it down, got inside the JU and, what was his name? Anyway, he sat in the cockpit looking at the instruments and the controls and sorting out what’s what and the ground crew come back and said, ‘What are you doing in here? Foreign workers aren’t allowed in German aircraft. Clear off.’ And they got out, they picked up their log of wood. They walked back to the camp and I remember it plainly I was stood at one end of the hut and the door was at the far end and suddenly, Geoff his name was, Geoff and his bomb aimer Smith come walking down the hut and the Germans never knew they’d been away. Never knew they’d been away. And they’d been sat in a JU88.
BW: And they’d nearly got away with it.
PB: If they’d landed. I mean the Russians didn’t ask questions. If you got out of a German aircraft they shot you.
BW: Yeah.
PB: It was the daftest idea I’ve ever come across in my life but that’s what they’d decided on. Geoff Taylor. He was, he was, he was a journalist in Australia and he wrote a book called “Piece of Cake” which had a forward by Butch Harris of all people. I’ve got a copy in there and that was the most audacious escape but of course like all other escapes it came to nothing in the end.
BW: And were there quite a few others who tried and -
PB: Oh yes. It was sport.
BW: Captured.
PB: It was sport. This notice that the Germans issued said escaping is no longer a sport but that’s what it had been. When you read about people who spend all their time organising an escape they’re just a bloody nuisance to everybody. They ruin life in the camp. Everybody has to give way to them. They’re not going anywhere. They might be out for a week but they’re back.
BW: And in the meantime everybody else is perhaps suffering.
PB: Everybody’s inconvenienced, yeah.
BW: Yeah but they’re getting more inspections presumably.
PB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To have a fella like Bader in your camp must have been hell. Absolute hell.
BW: That’s why they decided to put him in Colditz.
[pause]
BW: And you hadn’t been tempted to try yourself. You were making yourself a nuisance in the camp you made life -
PB: Only this -
BW: Miserable for the Germans.
PB: Mad plan we had to fly to Sweden which we gave up on. It was impossible. But we had an Australian pilot killed in the camp in a flying accident. This Luftwaffe camp was only a few kilometres away and once the airmen there realised that there were now airmen in 4b occasionally they’d come over and give us a bit of a, a bit of a thrill. They did and they’d come across in a JU86 which was an obsolete bomber based on a, on a civil aircraft. It was a bit like a Hudson it was and it were coming over the camp in a shallow dive right along the full length of the French compound which was the biggest and climb away and all the airmen in the compound would be going like this.
BW: Waving.
PB: And the army went mad. The army said, ‘You’re going to kill us all the way you’re going.’ You know, these lads know what they’re doing. Anyway, one came over one day and it wasn’t an 86 it was an 88 a powerful, big, powerful machine and he came perhaps a bit steeper than usual and when he pulled up his tail mushed in and his tail went into a wire fence and it dragged about twenty feet of wire and two or three fence posts with it. The tail plane hit this, hit this Canadian pilot who was walking around the compound. Killed him instantly. One of the posts hit his companion and badly injured him and I was in our own compound and I could see through the French huts and I saw this thing. It was no higher than that. I don’t know why the airstream wasn’t tucked in the ground and eventually it climbed away with all this wire streaming behind him and the Luftwaffe gave a splendid funeral to this Australian and we were told that the pilot had been stripped of his brevvy, stripped of his rank, and posted to the eastern front as a common foot soldier. I think, it think they just told us that to pacify us. I can’t believe for a moment that that’s what happened but that’s the story they gave us but to be killed in a flying accident walking around a prison compound it’s a bit much isn’t it?
BW: Yeah and as you say there’s got to be some for the tail wheel to be that close to the ground that there’s got to be the plane itself has got to be very, very low.
PB: It was no higher -
BW: Ten feet or less
PB: Than that. I don’t know why the airstream wasn’t hitting the ground.
BW: And that you’re indicating’s about two foot -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Three foot.
PB: Yeah I just saw it go I could see it between the huts.
BW: Wow.
PB: And then it just climbed away with all the stuff just trailing behind it. Beautiful piece of flying. Wonderful skilled bit of flying.
BW: Just unfortunate consequence.
PB: Yeah. So we did get excitement from time to time.
BW: How did it feel when the Russians came to liberate? I mean -
PB: Oh -
BW: You must have had a pretty limited amount of information getting through and an impression of what the Russian forces were like. How did it feel when they -
PB: Well -
BW: Came into the camp?
PB: Well the first thing on the newsreels I’d seen pictures of refugees in France and suddenly early in April we got German refugees going past the camp and it was, it was an incredible sightseeing German refugees like that and they were streaming past the camp to get over the Elbe. And then we could -
BW: The Elbe must have been quite close to the camp
PB: Oh it was only about five kilometres and then we heard gunfire and then on St George ’s day early in the morning someone rushed into our hut shouting, ‘The Cossacks are here,’ and we went out and on the main road there were four of the scruffiest most dreadful looking men I’ve ever seen in my life. On horseback. Oh they did, they looked murderous, every one and they were loaded down with sandbags full of food and ammunition and God knows what and they just sat there and later in the day the infantry arrived and they made no provision for us whatsoever. Nothing. So we just broke out of the camp to steal food and steal drink as well and steal women as well no doubt but the Russians clamped on that and then they started to register us and they were going to send us to a Black Sea port, Odessa or some sort of place, and sail us home from there they said. When the Americans are only five miles away. The other side of the river. And they started to register us and they had great big women, great big fat women, tables outside, taking the records, and they got some funny ones. There was a Micky Mouse and James Cagney, Humphrey Bogart and it became chaotic and eventually we just said oh blow this and they packed it in and then they moved us, as I say, out of the camp and up into this maintenance depot.
BW: So they realised you were giving them some spoof names -
PB: Yeah.
BW: And not helping at all
PB: We sat in this maintenance depot about five of us who were all together and suddenly the most horrible screaming and I said the Russians have either got a woman or they’ve got a pig let’s go and to find out which it is. So we followed the noise and we came to a place and there were two Russians. There was one dead pig lying down and there’s another Russian with a pig like a cello with his hand way inside of it and the pig screaming away and we sit and we watch all this and we’re thinking they’ll give us something and we watch and we wait and eventually they killed it and they cut off the ears and gave us the ears. They took two pigs and gave us the bloody ears off one of pig.
BW: And kept the rest for themselves. And in general when they, as you put it, got their act together in terms of organising the camp presumably they re-erected the fence post that had been torn down.
PB: It became a far, far, far worse place than it had ever been.
BW: Yeah.
PB: They turned it into a punishment camp for German civilians. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of Germans died in that camp over the next five years and so the natives at Muelburg are attached to us really. We both suffered in that camp. It was a dreadful place. What it must have been like when it was dreadful when we were there. What it must have been like.
BW: And they weren’t bringing the civilians in while you were there?
PB: No, no.
BW: They presumably -
PB: No. It was after, after they’d repaired it and repaired all the damage we’d done.
BW: Yeah.
PB: And I think it was about five years they had it as a punishment camp. Must have been hell on earth. Hell on earth. Hundreds if not thousands died and this was just because of complaining about some regulation or other that the Russians had imposed. Anything at all, straight in there. Shocking that.
BW: But they didn’t, did they impose a regime on you as RAF crew waiting to be repatriated during that sort of interim period of April, May.
PB: Well it was all chaos. It was all chaos. I had quite an experience on VE day. They had their VE day a day later than ours because apparently they weren’t satisfied with the arrangements that the west had made so they decided to have their own, their own VE day the next day and I was, I was walking in the German town. Why I was alone and not with any of my friends I don’t know but I was alone and I was walking through this town and suddenly two Russian officers grabbed me and took me to their mess and gave me a huge meal. All, all looted German property of course. Animals, vegetables. The lot. And a particular sweet which I learned later was made from sour milk and it was absolutely gorgeous and after the meal they took me to a public hall where there was to be an address by a general followed by a concert and it was full of full of Russian soldiers, men and women, in all sorts of different uniforms and this general came onto the stage and I got, I got an example of what it was it was like being in a totalitarian state. He made a speech and the only words I heard were Churchill and Roosevelt every now and again he’d pause and somewhere at the very back of the, of the gallery [clapping sound] and immediately everybody’s clapping and immediately they all stopped like that.
BW: As if somebody was coordinating it.
PB: Someone’s coordinating. The whole thing was coordinated and eventually the speech finishes and we had this concert and it was absolutely fantastic. Oh the music and the dancing and the singing unbelievable. Unbelievable concert. It was terrific. Now what happened when it finished I’ve no idea. I haven’t a clue what happened to me that night. Not a clue. Not the slightest idea. I know I joined up with my friends the next day but what happened that night I don’t, I’ve no idea but I’ve never seen anything like the performance that these women who seemed to just move like that.
BW: Gracefully across -
PB: No, no leg movement at all.
BW: The stage yeah.
PB: And the Cossacks down on their heels kicking. Oh it was a fantastic concert and the singing and the balalaika playing. A night to remember that was. And that was VE day. VE day Russian version.
BW: How had you managed to celebrate it in the camp at all? You mentioned it was quite different to our celebration were there any –
PB: Well we didn’t know. We didn’t know it was VE day.
BW: So the only indication you got was from the Russians when they -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Held their celebrations.
PB: And as I say by this time we weren’t in the camp and in fact we’d broken and were trying to get across to the Americans on our own.
BW: And you mention you were in the town at this stage in Muhlberg.
PB: Ahum.
BW: What, what was it like what was your sense of being in the town? Were there, firstly, was it damaged but also were there German civilians who might be hostile.
PB: No.
BW: To the RAF at all.
PB: The civilians couldn’t get us in to their houses fast enough. We were never we were never short of somewhere to sleep or somewhere to wash.
BW: Right.
PB: Because I think the theory was if ten drunken Russians hammered on the door at midnight looking for women we would go to the door and say it was under British occupation you’ll have to go next door. It never worked out in practice [thank God] but that was the theory I think. They couldn’t get us into their houses fast enough.
BW: So a bit I suppose a bit of a protection there for them if the -
PB: Yeah.
BW: If the Russians had seen western RAF aircrew in a house -
PB: Yeah.
BW: They would be less likely -
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: To interfere with it.
PB: And we slept we slept on a feather bed with a feather bed on top of us with a great big bed oh it was wonderful.
BW: And the Germans managed to put you up in the sense that they would feed you as well.
PB: Yes. Yes,
BW: Even though they would have probably been rationed at this stage and -
PB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they couldn’t do enough for us.
BW: And did you get to go back to Muhlberg in the intervening years?
PB: No, because I don’t know where we were. I don’t know where the Russians had moved us to.
BW: Right.
PB: The, the Stalag 4b Association organised trips to Muhlberg later and they became very popular because the Muhlberg people themselves were in the same boat but I never went. In fact they had a trip this year starting off in Berlin and moving down to Muhlberg.
BW: And when you came back to the UK we picked up the story at Cosford and we picked up the extra pay that you’d been awarded.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you were washed and brushed up. What then happened to you sort of post war from Cosford?
PB: Well I was given three options. I could come out immediately or I could go to oh what’s the Yorkshire town, the spa town?
BW: Harrogate.
PB: Harrogate. On a rehabilitation course and then come out or I could opt to stay in until my normal release date. Well I thought there was still a chance of getting back on flying and getting out east and bombing Japan so I opted to stay in and I got posted to a, to a Mosquito squadron near, near Newcastle and there, there I became in effect the squadron warrant officer. I sat in an office all day doing nothing but we had a very, very good rugby team. Our sports, our sports officer was a first class scrub half and we had a very good rugby team and we won the group cup without any difficulty and we got drawn in for the semi-final of the national cup and we got drawn away against Ringway and we came down to Ringway and we found that although paratroopers are army the people who trained them were airmen and practically every one of them was a rugby league professional. So, we turned out on a rugby pitch at Ringway about six hundred red cap paratroopers lying around the pitch cheering their side on. We were up against these great hulking fellas who were fit like butchers dogs. Oh they murdered us. Absolutely murdered us.
BW: And do you still retain an interest in rugby league despite that? Do you follow -
PB: Not rugby league. I don’t like rugby league but we were, they were playing rugby union but they were rugby league professionals.
BW: Right.
PB: But when we got back, when we got back to Acklington I thought that’s it. There’s nothing, nothing doing for me now so I asked to be released and I was released within days.
BW: And was that in 1945?
PB: That would, no, it would be 1946.
BW: ’46.
PB: Yeah.
BW: From Acklington and from then on what happened in your civilian life?
PB: Well, I couldn’t settle.
BW: Your post war life.
PB: I couldn’t settle. I got I got a job as a clerk with a, with a big chemical manufacturing company and I was in this office with about six other people who were as dull as ditchwater, been there forever and all I was doing was calculating lorry loads [eight car loads used to go there and six car loads to go there?] making up that and oh it was absolutely soul destroying. I stuck it I think for three months and then I thought I can’t, I can’t, I can’t settle to this so I then decided I thought the only way to get some companionship again, get some comradeship again was if I joined the police force so I went to, I went to the police station in Burnley and they said, ‘We’ve no, we’ve no vacancies but we can put you in touch with our central organisation.’ So they did and I was called for interview at Wallasey and got into the Wallasey force with three other people and when we went to the police training school we found that three people on the course were Burnley recruits. Burnley. But this gave me my first insight into the police they were recruiting people but they wouldn’t recruit Burnley people. They wouldn’t have anybody who lived in the town going into the police force. So that was the first lie from the police. I worked hard. I came out top of the class and we got to Wallasey and for the first fortnight I was sent out on patrol with another policeman who’d been on patrol for years and I learned how to, I learned which cafes you could sit in the back rooms of and drink coffee and I learned all sort of tricks that really you shouldn’t be doing and it was a complete and utter waste of time and in a small force like Wallasey the opportunity for promotion were very, very few and far between. You had people who had been pounding the beat for fifteen years. They’d passed their sergeants examinations, they passed their inspectors examinations and they were still pounding the beat and the only way you could get on was to curry favour. Start oozing up to some officers and telling tales. It was the exact opposite of comradeship. Everybody’s telling tales about everybody. I thought I can’t stick this so I resigned from that and I was playing rugby in Burnley then and one of the team was a cotton mill owner and he said, ‘If you ever want a proper job I’ll give you a job in a cotton mill,’ so I went to work in his cotton mill and that was no good. And all the time I’m in touch with my bomb aimer’s father. Had regular correspondence and I said to him, ‘I can’t settle I’m going to go back into the air force.’ And he said, ‘Well don’t do anything for the next fortnight,’ and I received a letter -
[interview transmission interrupted]
BW: Alright, so we’re only, we’re only a couple of minutes from the end and I was just asking Mr Phillip Bates that after the end of the war in conclusion he’d said that he’d had a good war but it had had its moments um that were not entirely enjoyable but that overall he’d enjoyed it, his service in the RAF but I was asking just about the commemorations and the national, now centre, at Lincoln and you mentioned that you’d been down to London for the unveiling of the memorial there.
PB: Yeah.
BW: At Green Park.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you got to meet Camilla as well did you say?
PB: Yes Camilla and the Prince of Wales. I got to shake both their hands. The Prince of Wales surprised me really. It was probably, it was probably the hottest day of the year and everybody had taken his blazer off and I was wearing my Raf Ex-Pow Association tie and the Prince of Wales came along and immediately recognised my tie which surprised me. And as he shook my hand he said, ‘Where did they keep you?’ I said, ‘Stalag 4b, sir.’ He said, ‘Were you a digger?’ I said, ‘Oh no I wasn’t a digger, sir. No. I left that to other people,’ and he was quite jovial and then of course he moved on and made his way down the line but I was amazed that he recognised my tie instantly.
BW: That’s a very nice point that, you know, he’s identified you by that.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And spoke to you particularly because of it.
PB: And part of the Royal Air Force. I’ve got photographs of it all.
BW: And how about now that there’s a centre for Bomber Command in Lincoln?
PB: Well yes he’s lost his football again. I was due to go there and a friend of mine, Dominic was taking me but when it came to it I wasn’t fit to go. I couldn’t have sat in a car for three hours. I just couldn’t. And then another three hours coming back. And Dominic also had a cold so we were ashamed to admit it and then again it’s Lincoln. It’s Lancasters. Bugger the Lancasters I say.
BW: Well perhaps it didn’t prove as reliable as the Stirling because it didn’t fly. They were trying to get the Lancaster flying for the Friday unveiling but they didn’t and I think it may have flown -
PB: Yeah.
BW: The day after but -
PB: What annoys me they chopped up every Stirling. Now, you think they could, it was the first four engine aircraft we had. You’d think they could have had two or three for museums wouldn’t you?
BW: Ahum.
PB: But no they chopped up the lot and that really does grieve me.
BW: And even now they’ve got a Halifax in Elvington.
PB: Oh I’ve seen that.
BW: Which is nicely renovated and so on.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Doesn’t fly.
PB: And it’s got, it’s got the Stirling’s engines in it as well. It hasn’t got Rolls Royce in it it’s got Hercules. It’s a mark iii. It’s that one. The mark iii.
BW: That’s the picture on the wall yeah. And there is a Halifax that they dug out or pulled out of a Norwegian fjord in 1973.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And that is in the Royal Air Force Museum in London.
PB: Yeah. Well for years we hoped that they’d would find a Stirling somewhere but er somewhere in Holland but they never did.
BW: Ahum ahum.
PB: A great shame because it was a beautiful aeroplane.
BW: Could take, from what you were saying, could take a fair bit of punishment and keep flying.
PB: Yeah it was a lot bigger than a Lancaster of course but it had some disadvantages you see. It couldn’t fly high and it couldn’t carry big bombs. It didn’t have a bomb bay. It had three separate ones which gave immense strength to the fuselage because you had these girders running the full length but you could only get a two thousand pound bomb in it so we mostly carried incendiaries.
BW: So just thinking in brief terms about the structure of a bomber formation in that case because you’d see that the pathfinders were going first to mark the target.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Presumably the Stirlings would then go in with the incendiaries.
PB: No. No, we were our main raid was either five or sometimes six waves.
BW: Right.
PB: And the Stirlings were always in the third wave. We got some protection from the first two waves going out and some protection from the last two waves coming back because we were a bit slower than they were. So we were always in the third wave.
BW: Right.
PB: Except, except Peenemunde. Now, that, that’s a terrible story. The night before Peenemunde we went to, we went to Turin and somewhere our radio packed in and we didn’t get the message telling us that East Anglia was fogged up and we had to land in Kent or Sussex. Wherever we could. We didn’t get that message so we arrived back at Lakenheath and asked for instructions to land and they said. ‘You can’t land here. It’s totally fogbound but if you get over to Oakington you might just get down.’ Well, we got over to Oakington, the other side of Cambridge and we just landed. They closed the, closed the airfield immediately we landed and they debriefed us and fed us and provided us with beds and in the early afternoon we went down to the airfield and the Lancasters of seven group were being bombed up and we knew we were on again that night and we were going on leave the so next day so we weren’t anxious to go bombing that night. Anyway, we’d no choice we started the port outer. Come to the port inner, nothing. The starter motor was dead. The starter motors they had in Oakington would fit a Lancaster, it wouldn’t have fit us so we rang Lakenheath to tell them. Eventually a lorry arrives with some fitters and a new starter motor and we landed at Lakenheath just as the squadron is taxiing out for take-off and we were very, very happy because we were going on leave the next day and then I discover we’d missed bloody Peenemunde and at Peenemunde the Stirlings went in first at five thousand feet in brilliant moonlight and all the fighters were circling in Berlin because Mosquitos were dropping target indicators on Berlin. The Germans got away scot free. Eventually the Germans twigged what was happening and got the fighters over and shoot down forty Lancasters and Halifaxes. Stirlings, scot free.
BW: And because you, they’d have been in the first wave.
PB: Yeah.
BW: They got away with it.
PB: There were three, there were three targets. The first one was at the very southern end was all the housing and the Stirlings destroyed that and then the next waves destroyed the science laboratories and then the assembly works and we missed it and it’s grieved me the rest of my life. I’d have given anything to have been on that raid and we were so happy that we weren’t. Oh, a friend of mine got shot down that night. No. I’d have loved to have been on Peenemunde.
BW: I mean that was, that was announced at fairly short notice. It was, you know sometimes a raid has to be planned quite well in advance.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But this was because of the intelligence about the weapons.
PB: Yeah.
BW: They were developing their short notice.
PB: The crews weren’t told, they were told that they were attacking an experimental place for new radar [and the better job of the radar they’d better defend themselves because they destroy all the latest airborne radar] that was the story that was given to aircrews.
BW: Interesting.
PB: Oh I’d have given anything to have been on that raid. Anything. Five thousand feet, brilliant moonlight and you were the first in.
BW: As you say it’s how fate goes isn’t it?
PB: Yeah.
BW: But -
PB: I’ve just been to the funeral of a friend of mine. George. He trained in Canada as a navigator. As a Mosquito navigator which is a specialised navigation job. He qualifies, he gets his brevvy, he’s ready to join the squadron and the war stops. They never even, he never even saw a Mosquito. Oh what a terrible thing to have happen to you. Terrible.
BW: Gone through all that. Well, I was reading in the prep really that they launched a raid on Peenemunde.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And just looking here at some of this um yeah it says here that 149 squadron took part in the early offensive against Germany.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And took part in the first thousand bomber raids with Stirlings.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Made a significant contribution to the battle of the Ruhr, Battle of Hamburg and the raid against the V weapons experimental station at Peenemunde.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And then between February and July ‘44 and in addition to dropping high explosives on the enemy the squadron helped supply the French maquis with supplies, arms and ammunition by parachute.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Of course that would be after you’d been shot down.
PB: About eight weeks after we were shot down Stirlings were taken off German targets completely. Some of them converted to Lancasters. Those that kept their Stirlings were used to drop supplies in France and to do mine laying and later to tow, to tow gliders but they never went to Germany again. The loss rate was unsustainable. I’d been on raids where we lost one in every five Stirlings. You can’t, you can’t keep that up for very long.
BW: No. No. Not at all. Do you think there was a particular weakness perhaps in the Stirling that the losses were so high or was it just good -
PB: You couldn’t get any altitude.
BW: Just because they were restricted to -
PB: Yeah, yeah.
BW: Low ceiling.
PB: Altitude. I mean, I had friends who flew at twenty two thousand feet. On a good night we would get thirteen. On a poor night we would get eleven. Everything that was thrown up reached the Stirlings and everything that was coming down reached the Stirling as well [laughs].
BW: I think you mentioned at one point a bomb hit your aircraft. A bomb -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Dropped from the aircraft above.
PB: This was the Nuremberg. I think it must have been a thirty pound incendiary because it went straight through. If it had been a four pound I think it would have stayed in the wing and burned. If it had been [eighty] it would have taken the wing off. Left quite a sizable hole.
BW: I would just like to show you this. There’s a photo here of a Stirling crew of 149 squadron based at Lakenheath.
PB: Oh.
BW: And I just wonder whether you might recognise any of the names. It’s only a longshot.
PB: Oh.
BW: But there’s -
PB: As I say we never bothered with other crews really.
BW: No.
PB: Except the ones we trained with at -
BW: But it looks like it’s outside the mess at Lakenheath that picture.
PB: Yeah I don’t recognise the photograph. Crowe, that’s a familiar name, Crowe. Oh he was a POW that’s why I know him. Was he a flight engineer? I knew a Tweedy in prison but he was a soldier. I don’t recognise the faces at all. Don’t know why their wearing uniform instead of battledress but there we are. Battledress were far more comfortable. That’s interesting. 27th of September. Oh well they would have been newcomers on the squadron when we were there. The average life expectancy was only six weeks. I had two friends, both on Halifaxes -
BW: Thank you.
PB: Both shot down on their first trip and my friend who were in training, a flight engineer on 15 squadron did four operations and got shot down twice.
BW: Right. I think that sort of brings us to the end as I say unless there is anything else you want to say.
PB: Well I hope I haven’t bored you.
BW: Not at all sir. No not at all there’s plenty of information. Some really interesting and diverse experiences. It’s been very kind of you to share those with me.
PB: It’s a pleasure.
BW: So thank you very much -
PB: A pleasure.
BW: For your time um what I’ll do is I’ll come to the signing of the release form now and a couple of photos so I’ll end the recording there and we’ll sort out the paperwork.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ABatesP151009
Title
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Interview with Philip Bates
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:13:03 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter
Creator
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Brian Wright
Date
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2015-10-09
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Bates grew up in Lancashire and joined the Royal Air Force in 1940. He served as ground crew with Coastal Command before remustering as aircrew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 149 Squadron until his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Poland
England--Lancashire
England--Suffolk
Poland--Tychowo
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
149 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
displaced person
Dulag Luft
entertainment
fear
final resting place
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
incendiary device
Ju 88
Lysander
Manchester
Me 110
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Nissen hut
prisoner of war
RAF Lakenheath
RAF St Athan
RAF Waterbeach
Resistance
Scarecrow
searchlight
shot down
Stirling
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/814/10795/PEvansD1701.1.jpg
be6c23d38e2a8e7d58bf746d24b73cd4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/814/10795/AEvansD171101.2.mp3
8b704edec0878915d80776e23df1154d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Evans, Ernest Darwin
D Evans
Description
An account of the resource
71 items. An oral history interview with Darwin Evans (1921 - 2017, 1049547 Royal Air Force) and photographs, including several of Lancaster nose art, Lancaster W4783 AR-G George, and crashed or damaged aircraft. Darwin Evans served as an assistant to the Navigation Officer in 1 Group.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Darwin Evans and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Evans, D
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright, interviewing Dawin Evans on Wednesday 1st November, 2017 at two o’clock in his care home at [beep] in Lancaster.
DE: Yes.
BW: Also, is Ray Hesketh who is Dawin’s nephew. So how should I address you, as sergeant or Darwin, do you mind?
DE: Darwin.
BW: [Chuckles] Darwin, ok. Speaking just before you said that your birthday was- Your date of birth was 8th of June 1921, and you’re now ninety-six. When you were living with your family and your parents were- Did you have any other brothers and sisters?
DE: I have one brother, yes, he’s two and a half years younger than me.
BW: What’s his name?
DE: Raymond, Raymond Owen.
BW: And where abouts were you born Darwin, where did you grow up?
DE: I was actually born in Kirkham by chance because my grandparents happened to have retired there.
BW: That’s near Preston isn’t it? In Lancashire.
DE: Near Preston yes.
BW: Where did you go to school, was it the local school in Kirkham or did you- Were you sent away?
DE: I went to junior- You see, we were affected by the big depression and we had a farm outside, outside Kirkham, course my grandfather was a colleague of Charles Darwin and that’s how I- When he, when he got married and had children, they all got Darwinian names.
BW: Right
DE: And one of them was Darwin, he were twins, and he got killed in the First World War at Passchendaele, and to keep the name going I was the first, I was the first grandson to come along so I got, I got Darwin. Now Ernest is a family name as well so they tagged that on.
BW: So is your full name Darwin Ernest Evans?
DE: Ernest Darwin.
BW: Ernest Darwin-
DE: Which can make things difficult.
BW: What was the association with Charles Dawin then, how-
DE: What was what?
BW: What was the association for your grandfather with Charles Darwin, what?
DE: What, what was?
BW: What was the association with Charles Darwin?
DE: Well, he was a colleague, I don’t really know it’s a long time ago. He must’ve been quite young you see, and he was involved in some of the research and we kept- We’ve kept that research going until recently. You don’t realise it but the family spent a long, long time persuading hens to lay an egg a day, instead of a clutch at Easter.
BW: Right.
DE: And the reason you’ve got all these eggs now is because of my family and colleagues.
BW: Interesting, and when you were at school what were your subjects, what was your ambition, what were you studying?
DE: I wanted to be an engineer. See I went to the first grammar school in the country, to have engineering as a subject, that’s not metal work, that’s a complete- I was very fortunate, but unfortunately the, the great depression meant that we couldn’t continue and we had to go to Blackpool. My father lost- They had to sell up at Kirkham, the town house and the farm. My father had to get a job in Blackpool and I went to Blackpool and I went to that first grammar school at Blackpool who taught me engineering, so I could use a lathe at twelve.
BW: Wow, and were you, were you wanting to be a specific type of engineer?
DE: Not particularly
BW: Ok, and when did you leave school, what sort of age were you when you left?
DE: Left school?
BW: Yeah
DE: I was seventeen, you see, I realised I was a - No it’ll get far too complicated but I- When we went from- We actually went to live in Walsall[?] for a time and when I came back, I couldn’t go to Baines Grammar which taught engineering. I had to go to Blackpool Grammar which was just no good for me so I packed in at sixteen from Blackpool Grammar, and I got a job at a Blackpool corporation as a junior engineer, training to be a junior engineer and continued studying at Blackpool technical college.
BW: I see, and in discussion with you before you said you were an electrical engineer, you-
DE: Well, I was training-
BW: Ok, and so at sort of seventeen this will be 1938 or there abouts-
DE: About that yes.
BW: Yeah, did you have ambition to join the RAF at that stage or no?
DE: No, I was interested in aeroplanes you see, I was always interested in model aircraft and I was one of the pioneers of model aircraft, in this country.
BW: Right
DE: And so I had that interest, but see I was frightened of being conscripted into the army. If I was going anywhere, I wanted to be RAF and, so when the war came, I volunteered for- I could only volunteer for one job, that was aircrew, and I didn’t want to be a pilot so I volunteered to become an observer or a navigator.
BW: And, what put you off being a pilot?
DE: Sorry?
BW: What put you off being a pilot, anything in particular?
DE: I just wasn’t interested.
BW: And when did you enlist then?
DE: At the end of 1940.
BW: And it was the fear of- Or the dislike of being conscripted into the army that prompted it, it wasn’t necessarily a-
DE: It was yes.
BW: -compulsion to join the RAF for any other reason?
DE: Well, I was interested in the technology anyhow of it.
BW: Yeah, and what happened through your training, were you streamed to be navigator and that’s what you became? Talk me through that.
DE: I was in the first group that went to aircrew receiving centre in London, and I went and joined up in London and then we- At, where is it? At- In, I forget the name of the place. In London anyhow, we joined up with a whole lot of- That was the first intake, first big intake for pilots and navigators in London and we- I went there and we were brung up in groups of thirty and eventually we went to the- The thirty of us went to Shawbury to be trained as observers, and I did that. That was what they called initial training wing, and then we went back to London and we tatted around for a time, and then we went to, to Bobbington which was a training place, thirty of us, and I was involved in an accident there, not a very bad one, but it knocked me about a bit and it brought on this eye trouble which is a family trouble, which is retinitis pigmentosa. So, I was unable to continue my flying duties at all, but I could still fly but not operate or anything like that.
BW: Do you recall what happened at Bobbington to cause the accident? Was it air or-
DE: Well, there was snow on the ground and the Anson tried to take off and one of the wheels locked and it spun round and went off the, off the runway and hit a concrete building and stopped very suddenly and it knocked- It broke my face quite a bit, I’ve had to have ham and chisel jobs on my face because of it.
BW: Oh dear.
DE: And it still effects my breathing.
BW: And in terms of the retinitis that you mentioned, how do you feel that was triggered by the accident, was it through-
DE: It was triggered by it, but it was a good thing, I’m the only survivor of those thirty young men, who went to Bobbington, twenty-nine of them vanished, died.
BW: Through later war service, not through that particular accident?
DE: Yes war service.
BW: Right. So you were able, it seems to complete your training as a navigator, were you close to finishing at that point or were you reassigned?
DE: Yes, I got extra training so I could become, I was- I went to a place called Cranage, when you’re in the RAF as you’ll probably find out, you have to have a trade, and I became a compass adjuster and I became assistant to the officer, the navigation officer.
BW: And what was your unit at Cranage, do you remember?
DE: Well, I was training.
BW: Ok so you weren’t assigned to a squadron at that point?
DE: I weren’t what, sorry?
BW: You weren’t assigned to a squadron at that point?
DE: Oh no, no we went to 460 when I finished that training.
BW: And so, you didn’t go through a heavy conversion unit or operational training unit?
DE: No, I could still fly. I still kept my log book and I was made a sergeant the same as if I'd been aircrew.
BW: And this is an interesting distinction because in the majority of cases, chaps who went through aircrew training were promoted sergeant and then continued in their trade flying operationally.
DE: That’s right yeah.
BW: You’re unique in the sense that you were promoted sergeant but you, I take it, weren’t flying operationally but you were flying?
DE: No I could still fly you see, and I still kept my log book and everything but I couldn’t operate because I had- I hadn’t finished my training. But I did some extra training to be assistant to the navigation officer.
BW: And from there you went on to 460 Squadron?
DE: 460, Australian squadron.
BW: When abouts would that be, do you recall? Would it be ‘41, ‘42?
DE: That was at a place called Breighton. We were flying Wellingtons, Mk 4 Wellingtons.
BW: And would this have been about 1941, ’42?
DE: ‘41 yeah.
BW: What were the Wellingtons like the fly in?
DE: Well, we had daft ones, the ones we had had prattled[?] with the engines which they were very underpowered, and they used to get shot up badly with, with flak, but we didn’t get many casualties on Wimpy’s. It was only when they changed us to Halifaxes, that’s when we ran into trouble.
BW: And were you with 460 Squadron at the time, when they changed to Halifaxes?
DE: Yes, we were sadly, oh I had a dicey do there.
BW: What happened?
DE: Well I was flying, I had to fly as part of the job to adjust the compasses and the radio equipment in the air, and we landed at Breighton, we were going to Binbrook and we put down and I opened the door of the side of the aircraft, and just as I did that they said, ‘Would Sergeant Evans report to the navigation officer immediately’. So, I got out and got on my bike, I left my parachute and everything and went to the navigation place. Now the crew took off to go to Binbrook and they said if I wasn’t there they’d take off and leave me you see, which they did. I’m sorry I'm having great difficulty, and- It took some time to do what I had to do at the navigation officer, and when I- I can’t remember the details but when I went to my room, I shared it with another bomb- One of the armourers and he took one look at me and his face went pale, because he thought I was a ghost. This Halifax had lost an engine taking off at Binbrook and they were all killed. Except me. Of course I wasn’t there but I didn’t know this was happening and it never occurred to me to take my name off the, off the crew list. That caused endless trouble, if you want to go into that sometime, I’m not really well enough to, to go into details. So, this is one of the cases where something has happened and it’s saved my life, all the rest of the crew, the seven were all killed, except me, and I had great trouble with the padre and I was bothered about sending a telegram to my mother that I’d been killed and everything. So, that’s what happened there.
BW: And do you recall the date at all when that happened, or there roughly whereabouts?
DE: Well, it would be in ‘42.
BW: And did you know the crew, were you flying with them regularly?
DE: Oh very well, very well yes. The crew were all buried in the cemetery at Binbrook.
BW: Do you remember any of their names at all?
DE: Not really, I can’t now, no. That’s seventy odd years ago.
BW: And as a compass adjuster did you fly with all the crews in the squadron?
DE: Yes, you see, yes you see. In those days before we got Gee, we had to do a whole lot in the air, that’s why I kept my log book and everything and I was still flying duties at the time.
BW: And you flew as the eighth member of the crew in effect?
DE: I did, yes
BW: So these must’ve all been daylight sorties that you flew, when the crew were not rostered for night ops, is that right?
DE: Yes.
BW: And what were the sort of schedules for you, adjusting the compasses, would it be every week, or every month or?
DE: Every month.
BW: Ok.
DE: I did a lot of flying [chuckles]
BW: So in some ways, you’d be in the unique position of getting to know the crews who were in the squadron, but also seeing those who would ultimately not come back?
DE: Oh that’s why I was able to take all the photographs and things, I served at some time or other with all six squadrons.
BW: In 1 Group?
DE: In 1 Group, yes. I even learnt to speak some Polish.
BW: Because 300 Squadron were the Polish squadron within one group weren’t they?
DE: That’s right I was with 300, I was with [unclear], I was with them at Faldingworth?
BW: How did you- Just out of interest, how did you rate the poles compared to the Australians or the British crews?
DE: I think they were incredible, there were twelve-hundred poles, sorry fifteen-hundred poles ran 300 Squadron, the twelve Englishman, we were all specialist- They had to draft me in because of problems they had.
BW: Such as?
DE: Well, swinging the compasses and all that, and doing adjustments in the air you see, ‘cause we- It was quite complex which I can’t go into now but I used to see- You had to use a beacon, and I was just able to get four, four trips in, four adjustments in because their beacon only lasted half an hour and I did it at Spurn Head off Hull, flying backwards and forwards off Spurn Point.
BW: So all the crew would be in the aircraft and would be briefed for the sortie to calibrate or adjust the navigation equipment, but you in effect would be in charge because you’d have to direct the aircraft in order to get the readings from the beacon?
DE: Well I had to do- The wireless operator did a lot of the stuff, but it would take quite a time to go into the technology of it. But I had to swing the compasses, adjust the compasses before we flew, and then I was able to use those results to adjust the radio beacon on the 1154 receiver.
BW: How long would it take to complete the swinging of the compass?
DE: Oh about an hour, it had to be done every month.
BW: And roughly how many flights would you get in a day, would you do one a day, or would you-
DE: Something like that, yes. It varies of course depending on the weather and stuff.
BW: How many of them, how many of the adjusters were there, was there just you within the group or were there a group of you?
DE: Well there were two of us.
BW: Do you recall the name of the other colleague of yours?
DE: It was George McDowell.
BW: And could you perhaps describe what you might do briefly, in terms of any checks or drills you had to do? So you’ve had the briefing in the crew room to undertake this sortie, what sort of things would you be doing when you get out to the aircraft?
DE: Well, we never actually operated in Halifaxes because they were so dangerous that they Aussies lost their whole crews before they did any operations, and they went on strike the Aussies did and wouldn't fly the Halifaxes, so they moved us down to Binbrook and gave us Lancasters.
BW: Now that is very interesting because you would think that the replace with the Lancaster would happen just because it was being brought in as a better aircraft, but it was as a result of the Australian crews refusing to fly the Halifax?
DE: It was yes, it was yes, it was terribly dangerous. They were very underpowered the original ones.
BW: Were these the Mk 1 Halifaxes?
DE: Yes, Mk 1’s yeah, and we had Mk1 Lancasters and that ARG Lancaster that’s in the museum in Australia, that was one of our original aircraft and did ninety-two ops.
BW: That’s quite a famous aircraft for 460 Squadron.
DE: It’s a famous- It’s the most famous Lancaster. It’s in the war museum at Canberra in Australia.
BW: And, you mentioned also I think, that there was a crew that crashed one of their Halifaxes, were you on board when that happened or was it just [unclear]-
DE: No, no I was left behind. See I had to go to the navigation officer, but I can’t remember why now because we weren’t operating, we never actually operated on Halifaxes as the Aussies wouldn’t operate them. We had enough trouble changing over from Wimpy’s to Halifaxes without operating them.
BW: So from there you pretty well went straight onto Lancasters?
DE: Yes
BW: And were you- Was 460 Squadron the first unit in 1 Group to get Lancasters, or did you fly them first?
DE: Well we weren’t the first but we were one of the first.
BW: And what was your experience like flying the Lancaster, did you rate it better than the others?
DE: Oh far better, far better than a Halifax, yes. Actually, there were plusses and minus of both of them.
BW: The saying was that they designed the Lancaster to get into and not get out of?
DE: Well, the- I always felt it’d been made out of bits and pieces that nobody else wanted the Halifax, they were made in Preston of course, by Dick Kerr there.
BW: That’s right, and you took plenty of photographs as you said and you, you know, you’ve kindly arranged to donate copies of those to the museum on a CD.
DE: Well what happened was, most English people didn’t get on very well with the Aussies, but I did. I did very well, and they taught me photography and supplied me with the cameras and things. So I was able to take hundreds of photographs, quite illegally, of the Lancaster era, that’s how I come to have all those photographs.
BW: So how did you manage to develop them and keep them out of official hands?
DE: I did, and I made a homemade amplifier, enlarger and everything. Oh, it was all done, all done in the bedroom. Hundreds of photographs, actually some of them got lost sadly, but there’s still a lot.
BW: And when you were on base, you mention this was- This developing of photographs was done in your bedroom but did you not stay in the sergeant's mess on the base, were you located off base?
DE: Yeah, this was in the sergeant's mess.
BW: Right. And did you share accommodation with other crewmen?
DE: Mainly Aussies, I- The Aussies taught me a lot.
BW: How come you think you got on better with them than most other Brits?
DE: It was just my character I suppose, the Aussies were much better than our people [chuckles] much more resourceful. They would do all kinds of things that the English people wouldn’t do, and I liked it that way.
BW: And in your photographs you’ve got some of Lancasters that have been, well, not necessarily shot down but they’ve crash landed back on the airfield.
DE: That’s right yes, quite a lot. You see when we were doing the wimpy’s, one of my jobs was trying to find out where the wimpy’s had dropped their bombs, which wasn’t usually where they were supposed to of dropped their bombs, but you see I knew what the winds were, which the crew didn’t and I’d all kinds of information and when they came back, I had to set [unclear] to try and find out where they dropped the bombs so they could send the reconnaissance Spitfire’s out.
BW: And how soon after the ops would you have to that? Immediately?
DE: Right away, as the information came in, and the crew remembered.
BW: So I presume you’d be in the debriefing room that night when the crews came back?
DE: I was there going and coming back. I gave out all the charts and maps and times and everything, I was assistant to the navigation officer you see, so I virtually ran the navigation office. Old Mac was no good at that sort of thing, but I had the technical knowledge to do it.
BW: So, when people see in the newsreel footage the curtain going back and the crews being briefed about the routes and things, that map that they see that was what you put together was it?
DE: It was yes.
BW: And all the information on the briefing notes for the navigators and bombers?
DE: That’s right yes, yep. That was in the middle of the night. Of course, the wimpy’s didn’t last very long, they had these American engines and they had a very short range so they were back pretty early, they were often back by eleven o’clock at night. They’d been and gone, they’d been and come back, eleven and twelve o’clock.
BW: Do you recall any of the particular instances seen in your photographs where Lancasters-
DE: I’m sorry, any what?
BW: Do you recall any of the particular instances of Lancaster crashes that you photographed, were there any memorable ones?
DE: Well not really, you’ll see there’s quite a number in those books. You’ve got a lot of my photographs there, if you look at the ones on Lancaster at war, you’ll find a lot more, unfortunately a lot got damaged. But there’s still a lot.
BW: And what other nationalities did you fly with in 1 Group?
DE: One what?
BW: What other nationalities did you fly with?
DE: Oh everything, everything from- Australians mainly, New Zealanders, South Africa, English of course and others, and of course I- The Poles got into difficulty so I got sent to 300 Squadron for a time, and then they realised I’d done a good job there and they were having trouble with 12 Squadron and others which I was able to go and sort out. They actually put me temporarily in a place Ludford Magna. I wasn’t doing official work for 101, it had its own people they were alright, but I had to go and go to Wickenby and other places to sort them out. I became a kind of, what you call it? An expert or a sorter out.
BW: Trouble-shooter?
DE: Having great difficulty.
Other: Do you want something-
BW: Are you alright Darwin, do you want to take a break?
DE: I could do with going to the toilet.
BW: Ok I’ll pause it there. Ok, so we were talking about your time on 460 Squadron just before, and you were obviously with 1 Group for many months, if not years and there are different photographs here showing snow conditions-
DE: Well I didn’t sell them. You see, you had great difficulty getting photographic equipment, and many of the photographs were taken on redundant x-ray film, thirty-five millimetre. So it’s achromatic[?] it isn’t, it isn’t the- I took many hundreds but some got lost. In fact a lot have got lost since.
BW: But I was saying, you, you must’ve seen the bombers operate in all weather conditions, there’s pictures of aircraft in the ground in snow and all sorts-
DE: Oh yes, I was, very true. You had just no idea at the end of the war when the Lanc’s and others went up to twenty-four- thousand feet, up above Lincoln and twenty miles away it vibrated, the whole area vibrated. It must’ve been awful in Germany when they heard all these aircraft coming, you’ve just no idea how noisy they were, three-thousand engines running.
BW: How did it feel being on the inside of the aircraft when you were flying with the crew?
DE: How many what?
BW: How did it feel being on the inside of the aircraft when it was in flight?
DE: Well it was much the same, you, you couldn’t tell really.
BW: Was it difficult to communicate with the others, apart from the headsets that you used?
DE: That’s right, yes.
BW: You mentioned before, one of the items of equipment you used was Gee?
DE: Gee, yes
BW: And there was also Oboe and H2S, what- Can you describe what it was like to use those?
DE: Well, Oboe was a system that automatically dropped the bombs over the target, Oboe did. So that was fitted to Mosquitos, and they automatically dropped a marker bomb, no matter what the weather was, and the Lancasters then dropped green markers round it, to show an area where they had to drop the bombs, and this kept being moved you see. They were, they were seven-hundred aircraft dropped bombs in about twenty minutes so it was pretty well continuous dropping bombs.
BW: And of course, they’re going to depend on your navigation calculations in the-
DE: Well, it wasn’t mine but other people, no that’s what Oboe did. Well, yes, they were able to work it out by trial and error over the target.
BW: You mentioned previously that in the early days you, and indeed all navigators, had to use their own maths, their own dead reckoning if you like, to navigate to and from the target.
DE: Yes it very was dead reckoning too, it wasn’t very precise.
BW: And you were one of those who presumably got first go at the new navigation instrumentation when it came in?
DE: That’s right, well that was Gee you see, which was an electronic system, a markers. That was the first big step on navigation replacing the 1155 direction finding receiver. And H2S of course was when you could see the ground through, electronically when you were flying.
BW: Did you get to use that at all to-?
DE: Well I didn’t, I didn’t no, I didn’t need to do see I wasn’t navigating. The crews did.
BW: So you weren’t taught how to use that?
DE: I had to issue the instructions for Gee and all the rest of it.
BW: And were there various developments in that equipment that took place that you had a hand in, or did you just have to learn to train, learn to use them?
DE: Well, it was always being developed, when Gee first came out it was very secret and all the people who maintained it were, what do they call it? Over in America and Canada to keep it secret, and that’s what happened. The people who maintained it originally were all Canadians.
BW: And did you get any sense at all as to how effective the German systems were either in countermanding the British or the effort?
DE: Well what happened you see, I was with 101 Squadron for a time and they carried an extra member of the crew who spoke German, to give the night fighters the wrong instructions, but they sorted that one out, they just had girls giving flying instructions to the night fighters, so it was continuous battle that way.
BW: There were many raids of course flown across enemy territory, do you recall any particular raids that you were involved in the navigation preparation for? Maybe for example in the Ruhr valley or against Peenemunde, or anything like that, do you recall particular memorable targets?
DE: Well, course depending on the weather how long the night was. I mean at the famous thing [chuckles] was the Ruhr valley, happy valley as they called it, and that could be bombed in winter when the nights were shorter, but later on when the Mosquitos came along, they used to bomb Berlin every night because their crews were about twice the speed of a Lancaster.
BW: You never got to fly one though did you?
DE: No, there were only two seaters. The most I did was sit in one.
BW: Do you recall any particular individuals on the squadrons that you served in, commanding officers or pilots or crews?
DE: Well I’ve forgotten names quite frankly, the- One of the friends was George Saint Smith who flew, that’s the RG Lancaster for a time, I think he did about twenty ops on that, and then he went to pathfinders, and then he went to Mosquitos and got killed flying Mosquitos, they were particular friends of mine, and his navigator.
BW: Do you recall the circumstances in which they were lost, which raid it was and when?
DE: No I don’t, no
BW: When it came up towards D-Day in 1944, were you involved? 460 Squadron did fly over that period of time particularly?
DE: Oh yes we-
BW: Were you involved in the preps for D-Day?
DE: We were very involved with D-Day, you see, what happened was that, when squadron was formed, they wanted a special flying squadron and originally they were going to Binbrook, and Benbrook got an additional twelve, twelve positions for Lancasters. So there were battle between 3 Group and 1 Group and eventually it was- To stop that problem they formed 5 Group, which was 617 and 9 Squadron, and of course they had a redundant system at Binbrook so 460 Squadron before a four flight squadron, it was the only one and we had to operate fifty Lancasters and frankly it was too much. It took at least a minute to get each Lancaster off, and even at that it was a lot of Lancaters, you know, it wasn’t easy.
BW: And that would’ve been a lot of work for you as a compass adjuster to get through all of them?
DE: Oh very much so yeah, well I used to do other things as well. I used to go and help them- I used to go and help the friends of mine who were sending the Lanc’s off and bringing them back, and I was interested so I used to go and help. I’d be with them at the caravan, you probably hear we have a green? Has that come up?
BW: Yes, yes when they gave them the green light.
DE: Well, there was a man with a green you see, my eyesight wasn’t that good then, now what used to happen, I used to go and help them, it wasn’t my job and when I saw the Lanc go down the runway, as I saw it take-off, I gave him a bang on his back and then he’d give the green to the next Lanc went off, and that went off. It took three-quarters of an hour to get those aircraft up.
BW: Simply because of the volume, but also because of the take-off run for each aircraft. When they’re heavily laden they have-
DE: Very much so.
BW: And that makes sense in terms of your photographs, as you said because a lot of them are taken from the holding point and either in or near the caravan, because you see Lancasters taking off and approaching to land as well.
DE: And coming back crashing
BW: There’s quite a few of those
DE: Very many, too many. There were often, weren’t badly damaged.
BW: But there are photos that you’ve got of some of the battle-damaged ones where they’ve obviously had gun fire through the control services and the air frame?
DE: Yeah, what are you gonna do with them- Are you going to borrow those photographs?
BW: The originals will stay with you and your family, the copies will go to the archive, the digital copies will go to the archive
DE: Well you’ve got them, oh bloody hell, you’ve got them with the Lancaster at war, all those photographs?
BW: Yes
DE: They’ve got this outfit called lancfile[?], all my negatives being kept under special conditions so they last. But there were hundreds of them at one time.
BW: Did you fly any other aircraft apart from the Lancasters towards?
DE: I did two or three trips when I was training on Bristol Blenheims and Halifaxes and Ansons.
BW: Did you fly any other aircraft towards the end of the war, were you-
DE: Not really, no, I finished up with the Lancasters. They sent the Aussies back to Australia and they shut down 300 Squadron with the Poles, so that left 4 Squadrons and they had four twelve flight squadrons went to Binbrook, that’s what happened. When the war finished, we had those four squadrons there and I was doing- I was looking after those with the others when, when I left the RAF.
BW: Talk me through the latter stages of the war, the sort of early 1945 and VE Day and the end of the war.
DE: That’s right yeah.
BW: What happened there? Talk me through those months.
DE: Well on D-Day I worked one-hundred-and-thirty-two hours one week. Getting the aircraft off, early in the morning ‘cause we were operating fifty Lancasters. We could drop as many bombs round D-day just the one squadron as the Luftwaffe dropped on London.
BW: And what happened afterwards, talk me through the latter months of the war and the end of the war.
DE: Well nothing, we just played about and people just kept retiring as I did. I got out on what they call Class B, which as I came in and they got me back in my job at Blackpool as soon as they could because of getting things sorted out.
BW: In terms of demobbing the servicemen?
DE: Sorry what's that?
BW: In terms of demobbing the servicemen, when you talk about sorting, sorting things out they got you demobbed quickly is that right?
DE: Sorry I couldn’t follow that.
BW: When you left the air force, you say you went out as Class B?
DE: Yea that’s right well-
BW: Was that a quick departure?
DE: I went out back onto studying, and getting on in the maze office to at Blackpool corporation, and studying but things went badly wrong for a time, caused me a lot of trouble.
BW: Is that something that you can, you can talk further about or summarise, what happened?
DE: Well, well it’s difficult to tell you really. We had a daft lecturer who tried to wangle me extra time off and it didn’t work, and it cost me a whole extra year.
BW: So when abouts did you leave the RAF? Was it shortly after the end of the European war in ‘45?
DE: It was January ’46
BW: And from Binbrook then you came back to Lancashire-
DE: And back to Blackpool, yes
BW: Back to Blackpool, continued your education?
DE: That’s right.
BW: And in short you presumably ended up as an engineer with Blackpool council?
DE: Yep, that’s it.
BW: And talk me through the years after the war, what happened, where- What was your progressing?
DE: Well, I had to continue studying, I got promotion and went to, went to Preston, to the headquarters at Preston, and eventually we saw an advert in the paper for a job with atomic energy, a research job and I thought I could do that. So I became a junior, what do they call it? I was a senior officer there later on, so I got the job as a- On research in atomic energy at Preston there, and I continued from there until I had to retire because of my eye trouble, I had twenty years on nuclear research.
BW: Presumably that was Salwick was it?
DE: At Salwick yes. That was my headquarters, but I operated all the, all the officers at Harwell and even Aldermaston I worked on the bomb project, and worked wind scale and I went over to America as well and Canada, I went all over the place with the nuclear research.
BW: What aspect of nuclear energy were you looking at was it with a view to- You mentioned bomb project so were you involved with the development of British atomic bomb-
DE: The bomb sorry what?
BW: You said you were involved with the bomb project, were you involved with the British development of the atomic bomb?
DE: Well I was very surprised, you see that they realised I had unusual skills. Believe it or not you think of atomic energy as being to do with heating, well I was the top heating man in atomic energy, if there was any heating troubles, you’d finish up with me, believe it or not, and that’s what happened. I had twenty years on that, on AGR there.
Other: How did you get into the bomb, Darwin?
DE: What sorry?
Other: How did you get involved with the bomb at Aldermaston?
DE: Well not directly. It takes a lot of people to do that kind of work, I was the heating man and I had to do quite a lot of work on the, on the fuel, supply that. It’s difficult for me to remember details now, but I was very surprised that they were very open with me at Aldermaston and I said, ‘Well, I can’t understand this because you don’t know’, ‘Well you’ve got the same clearance as we have so why not?’. That was their argument, you couldn’t get a nicer lot of people then the ones at Aldermaston, and eventually they shut it down. When atomic energy authority left Aldermaston, the government took over and I never went again. But I still did consultancy work.
BW: And did you travel out to America or to the Pacific to see any of the bomb tests, or were you just involved in research for that project?
DE: No, I went mainly for the library at Argonne in Chicago, and we- The- It’s difficult to see, you know that some atomic energy is medical, very short range you see, and there was a- Most of that work was done in Canada, and at Springfields we probably had the best engineering job in the country, in Europe, we actually did the work there on that reactor at Snowy River in Canada.
BW: And so, when you talk about being involved with the heating part of nuclear energy, were you looking at containing the heat or dissipating the heat?
DE: It was making the fuel usually, and doing research. There’s an awful lot of research goes on which you- See to do all this I could spend days doing it if I had, what you’re doing, what we’re doing and- We actually did engineering work on Snowy River for making, making this specialised medical nuclear equipment.
BW: The sort of thing they might use in-
DE: In hospitals.
BW: Yes, to detect tumours and-
DE: It was all done in one reactor in Canada at the main place called Snowy River in Canada. You see there weren’t any of us were experts, remember there was nobody in atomic energy could said they were atomic energy, and we were all engineers, physicists, chemists and think of it, we were that. So, I went over there as an electrical engineer and other stuff and so did others, you just had to learn as you went along.
BW: And you were in that field of work for about twenty years you said?
DE: Twenty years, yeah.
BW: And what did you move onto after that, did you retire or did you continue working-
DE: I had to retire as my eyesight got worse, I had to retire and eventually we came here, we came to live in Warton.
BW: And you mentioned that you married, and obviously have a wife, did you have a family as well?
DE: No we didn’t she kept having- She kept losing the children at three months, kept having miscarriages which was very sad.
BW: A shame, and so you heard in recent years about the moves to finally recognise the contribution by bomber command in the war effort. What are your thoughts on this and the development at the centre? Is it reassuring that it’s taking place for you now?
DE: It kept coming up about it, as time went on people took more interest. Just after the war nobody was interested, they were all glad to see the last of it, but as time has gone on they realised that we were all getting very old and ancient and if they want to get first-hand accounts, they better get cracking. I think that’s what’s happening.
BW: But hopefully its reassuring for you that people who served in bomber command and those who survived and those who didn’t are being commemorated?
DE: Well we’re all getting- I didn’t take part operationally but I was there planning and doing all kinds of things as well.
BW: Well I think Darwin, those are all the question that I have for you, is there anything else that you would like to add that perhaps we haven’t covered at all?
DE: I don’t think so, I could do a lot more but there’s probably enough for your needs.
BW: Very well, thank you very much for your time Darwin and thank you very much for your contribution to the bomber command centre.
DE: Well I feel I ought to do with all those colleagues of mine who’ve all died. I lost a lot of good friends, especially among the Aussies who taught me- The Aussies taught me a lot. It was partly due to the Aussies that I became interested in getting things hot.
Other: How’s that? How’s that Darwin?
DE: Well now, where can we go? When they started flying at twenty-four-thousand feet the oxygen supply used to freeze up in the turrets and so, an Australian electrical man and me we actually made heater devices that went on the oxygen supply for the rear gunners. I actually went home- I had a lathe at home and actually made the components for these heater systems and Len, this Aussie, was a very clever bloke and he showed me how to get things hot, you know, in an easy way. We, we used to go into Grimsby and buy replacement electric fires and strip it all down and I would do work at home and go away and come back and we built these heaters. I don’t know how other squadrons did but we equipped the gunners with heaters on the oxygen supply and that gave me the background which made it poss- And I knew about thermocouples and things which I wouldn’t normally of done, and that’s how that came about, they gave me the interest of getting things hot and of course, when I say hot I say really hot, we did all kinds of things which involved getting things to two-thousand degrees Celsius. When you think Iron melts at fifteen-hundred and we were seven-hundred degrees up above that, and I had all that sort of things to do. It were only because of these Aussies giving me the background that I was daft enough to do it.
Other: Interesting.
BW: So what would be kept at two-thousand degrees? What would you need to-
DE: That was- Well that was a fuel, the four AGRs which is a ceramic fuel, that melts at these temperatures but that was another project that never came up that involved coating, how can I put it? Involved, involved coating uranium dioxide with a film, very thin film, at these enormous temperatures, so it would stand the temperature in the reactor. It’s not very clear it isn’t. Really to do all this I should be given time to work it all out.
BW: But what’s interesting is that, the development that took place from learning to keep gunners warm in the back of a Lancaster lead to you developing things like thermocouples or the technology to coat uranium.
DE: That’s right, it did, it did, and this other stuff as well. You’re right there. That involved going buying stuff in Grimsby, buying spare electrical heaters in Grimsby [chuckles].
BW: I bet there’s many an Australian gunner who would, you know, thank you for your efforts in keeping them warm in the back of a Lancaster
DE: Well, well what happened was that it was, I had to- We actually flew at twenty-nine-thousand feet when we were doing that work, course it was twenty-four-thousand at night so we had to go higher up in the daytime, and that’s what was happening, that I had to do that. As I say I've been to twenty-nine-thousand feet in a Lancaster and being the RAF, we had thermometers and some were Fahrenheit and some were centigrade and I couldn’t understand why they both read forty, and it was only then that I realised there’s a crossover point between Celsius and Fahrenheit, minus-forty the temperatures cross over.
BW: Fascinating.
Other: Did you invent anything else for the Lancasters?
DE: Did what?
Other: Did you invent anything else with the Aussies, to help with the crews, or anything like that? No?
DE: I can’t think of it at the moment, no.
BW: Did you get to socialise with them much off base, or in base, you know, in the messes?
DE: No. I actually made- I used to go home making special tools.
BW: And where did you meet you wife, did you meet her in Lancashire after you demobbed? Or in Lincolnshire when you-
DE: Yeah, Lancaster, fell walking. We were both interested in other things, you see, I was never very well and the doctor said, ‘Darwin,’ he said, ‘You want to go walking, to try and get yourself breathing a bit better’. So, he suggested I join the CHA and eventually Alice joined the CHA, we got together and then got married.
BW: And that presumably was after the war it wasn’t-
DE: That was after the war.
BW: Yeah, when did you get married by the way?
DE: Well you see I was quite late getting married, in ‘53. We were married- We’ve been married over sixty years. I’ve also become a radio amateur among other things, to learn about electronics.
Other: You did a lot of work with steamtown and the model railway as well.
DE: That’s right and that, yes. You’ll find if you go to Cinderbarrow, you’ll find name is on the building, they called the building after me I’d done so much for them.
BW: That’s good of them.
DE: The model railway at Cinderbarrow.
BW: Right, well once again thank you very much Darwin it’s been pleasure and very interesting to talk to you and meet you and thank you very much for your contribution and for allowing me to interview you.
BW: So you’re going to borrow the- He got up in bed, I got rounds rattling on the roof of the Nissen Hut, it actually shot us up.
BW: So this was at-
DE: So I've been shot up by a German aircraft in bed.
BW: So this was at Ludford Magna while you were asleep?
DE: That’s with 101 Squadron, yeah.
BW: Did the sirens go off?
DE: Did what?
BW: Did the sirens go off to warn you?
DE: No they didn’t, no, what happened was the girls were in the next line, next to us and they had a toilet block, they were told on no account the door had never to be opened when the light was on and this and that, and some daft girl left the light on and the door open and the JU-88 came cruising over and shot up this toilet block. We got quite a lot of the rounds ricocheted onto us. It blew up the ladies' toilet block.
BW: [Chuckles] A vitally strategic target.
DE: Yes. Marvellous bit of flying.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Darwin Evans
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEvansD171101, PEvansD1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:07:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cheshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
Description
An account of the resource
Darwin Evans volunteered for aircrew in 1940 and began training as a navigator. After an accident while training at RAF Bobbington (later RAF Halfpenny Green) ended his operational flying duties, he retrained as a compass adjuster at RAF Cranage and served as an assistant to the Group 1 navigation officer until January 1946. Evans describes flying with crews monthly to calibrate the aircraft compasses and his role in operation briefings. He recollects a good working relationship with the Australian aircrew of 460 Squadron and the Polish aircrew of 300 Squadron, and narrowly avoiding a fatal crash at RAF Binbrook. Finally, he explains how his trouble-shooting role in Bomber Command (inventing heaters for rear gunner oxygen supplies) prepared him for his post-war career as an electrical engineer in nuclear energy research.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
1 Group
101 Squadron
300 Squadron
460 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
crash
final resting place
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Lancaster
navigator
Oboe
RAF Binbrook
RAF Breighton
RAF Cranage
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Shawbury
take-off crash
Wellington
-
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Peadon, Alec Henry
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Peadon, AH
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. An oral history interview with Sybil Green (b. 1929), photographs and documents. Her Brother, Sergeant Alec Henry Peadon was killed 31 August 1943 when his 78 Squadron Halifax was shot down over Belgium. <br /><br /><span>The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Sybil Green and catalogued</span> by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/221937/">Alec Henry Peadon</a> is available via the IBCC Losses Database.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-04
2016-06-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
War Grave Visit
Description
An account of the resource
Form WG3 detailing travel arrangements for Mr and Mrs Peadon and Mrs J Hunter to visit Alec's grave at Antwerp.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
British Legion
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1955-07-25
Format
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Four typed sheets
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MPeadonAH1578531-160504-040001, MPeadonAH1578531-160504-040002, MPeadonAH1578531-160504-040003, MPeadonAH1578531-160504-040004
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium--Antwerp
Belgium--Brussels
Belgium--Ostend
Great Britain
England--Dover
England--Lincoln
England--London
Belgium
England--Kent
England--Lincolnshire
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1955-07-25
final resting place
killed in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1816/32149/EJanesMFMonksA[Date]-01.jpg
1c5b065ccb0bad6ae6af63f7781f8587
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Monks, Maurice Arnold
M A Monks
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Monks, MA
Description
An account of the resource
39 items and a subcollection of eighty-one items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Maurice Arnold Monks (152996 Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. Sub-collection contains photographs taken while he was training in Canada. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 166 Squadron and was killed 13 June 1944.<br /><br /> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2023">Monks, Maurice Arnold. Photograph album</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Hilary Megget and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />
<p><span data-contrast="none">Additional information on Maurice Arnold Monks</span><span data-contrast="none"> is available via the</span><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":200,"335559740":276}"> <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/116453/">IBCC Losses Database.</a></span></p>
<p><span data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":200,"335559740":276}"> </span></p>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PHONE: WHITEHALL 8131.
TELEGRAMS: BRITEGION, PHONE, LONDON.
BRITISH LEGION
(Incorporated by Royal Charter).
FOUNDED BY THE LATE FIELD MARSHAL EARL HAIG (1921)
PATRON: HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN.
[British Legion crest]
Our Ref. WG/1
PALL MALL, LONDON, S.W.1.
Date as postmark
Dear Sir or Madam,
Your name and address have been passed to the British Legion by the Netherlands War Graves Committee together with an invitation to you and close relatives to visit the War Cemetery in Holland in which your relative is buried.
I now write to inform you that the British Legion has accepted the invitation and agreed to organise groups which will leave London on the following dates:-
Monday 2nd May returning on Friday 6th May
Friday 27th May “ Tuesday 31st May
Friday 17th June “ Tuesday 21st June
Friday 8th July “ Tuesday 12th July
As in previous years all members of the groups will be accommodated in Dutch homes, freely opened, without recompense from any source as a token of gratitude for the sacrifices made by the British people, all costs for internal travel whilst in Holland being met through the generosity of the Netherlands War Graves Committee.
The cost per person is thus limited to the cost of travel to and from Holland, and calculated from London will be £10.10.0.
Should you wish to take advantage of this invitation please address your request for application forms to the General Secretary, British Legion, 49 Pall Mall, London, S.W.1. marking your letter “Dutch Pilgrimage” and give the name of the cemetery concerned.
Yours faithfully,
M.F. Janes
Secretary – Welfare Department
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Title
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Letter from the British Legion
Description
An account of the resource
Invitation to visit relative graves in Holland from the Netherlands War Graves Committee through the British Legion. Provides list of dates and gives details of arrangements.
Creator
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British Legion
Format
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One page typewritten letter
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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EJanesMFMonksA[Date]-01
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
Netherlands
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
final resting place
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1477/30532/MDyerJH1217992-160108-01.2.pdf
c4f20bb39d2d50bcbbba08b2cca2b56d
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Dyer, John
J H Dyer
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dyer, JH
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. The collection concerns Sergeant John Dyer (1217992 Royal Air Force) who was a wireless operator on Lancaster with 106 Squadron and was killed on operations 2 January 1944. Collection contains an account of operation and crew newspaper cuttings and photographs of his crew. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Christopher Dyer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on John Dyer is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/106752/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
T Sgt John Dyer from his niece Christine Dyer Lancaster MK3 JB645 ZN‐F left Metheringham in the early hours of the 2nd January 1944 on an operation to Berlin, the take‐off time having been delayed for some 4‐5 hours due to poor weather. They were part of a 421 strong force of Lancasters from No's 1,3, 5, 6 and 8 group. The aircraft was lost and all the crew killed. In 1948 Dyer’s parents were contacted by the Missing Research and Enquiry Service to inform them that his remains had been found, along with the rest of the crew, having been buried by the villagers of Nudow in the local cemetery. The aircraft had come down near the village which lies about eight miles south west of Berlin. The crew’s remains were re‐ interred to the British Military Cemetery in Berlin. Pilot Officer Edward Holbourn was the pilot. He was 27 years old and from Worthing in West Sussex. He was married to Hilda May Holbourn. Sgt Edward Burton was the Navigator. He was 20 years old and from Folkestone in Kent. He was the son of Ralph Withers and Kate Burton. Sgt Herbert Walmsley was the Flight Engineer. He was 21 years old and from Morecambe in Lancashire the son of Thomas and Martha Anne Walmesley. Flight Sgt Stanley Mattick DFM was the Rear Gunner. His age and home town are unknown. He was awarded the DFM in 1943 while serving with 61 Squadron, the award was gazetted on 15th of October 1943. Sgt Thomas Powell was the Bomb Aimer. He was 21 the son of Thomas and Marjorie Powell from Woodside Surrey. Sgt Thomas Mallet was the Mid Upper Gunner. He was 20 years old and from Sunderland Co Durham the son of Elizabeth Mallet and step-son of Alexander Clark. Sgt John Dyer was the Wireless Operator/Air Gunner. He was 21 years old from Stahern near Melton Mowbray in Leicestershire. He was the son of Harold and Nellie Dyer and brother of Maurice
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
T Sgt John Dyer
Description
An account of the resource
Note from his niece which gives outline of operation to Berlin on 2 January 1944. Mentions that Missing Research and Enquiry Service contacted his parents with news that his remains had been found and he and rest of crew were buried in the village of Nudow near where their aircraft came down. Gives details of all the crew.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
C Dyer
Format
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One page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MDyerJH1217992-160108-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Kent
England--Folkestone
England--Lancashire
England--Croydon
England--Durham (County)
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
England--Leicestershire
England--Melton Mowbray
Germany--Ludwigsfelde Region
England--Morecambe
England--Sussex
England--Sussex
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01-02
1943-10-15
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
crash
Distinguished Flying Medal
final resting place
flight engineer
killed in action
Lancaster
navigator
pilot
RAF Metheringham
wireless operator
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Palmer, Robert Anthony Maurice
R A M Palmer
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Palmer, RAM
Description
An account of the resource
38 items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader Robert AM Palmer VC, DFC and Bar (115772, Royal Air Force) and contains his log books, photographs, fact sheets, newspaper cuttings, documents, correspondence and a substancial history of his last operation. <br /><br />He flew one hundred and eleven operations as a pilot with 75, 149 and 109 Squadrons and was killed 23 December 1944 when leading a daylight operation as an Oboe marker.<br /><br />The collection also contains 51 items in a <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2178">Photograph album</a>.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Penny Palmer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Robert AM Palmer is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/221528/">IBCC Losses Database</a>
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[missing letters]LEPHONE NO.: GERRARD 9234
TRUNK CALLS AND TELEGRAPHIC ADDRESS } “AIR MINISTRY,” LONDON
AIR MINISTRY
(Casualty Branch)
73-77 OXFORD STREET
LONDON, W.1
P.426714/1/P.4.A.2.
27 September, 1945.
Sir,
I am commanded by the Air Council to refer to the letter addressed to you on 13 June, and to the subsequent telegram, and to express to you the very great regret with which they learned that your son, Acting Squadron Leader Robert Anthony Maurice Palmer, V.C., D.F.C., Royal Air Force, is now known to have lost his life as the result of the air operations on 23rd December, 1944.
A report now received, from U. S. army authorities confirms the information already furnished by the repatriated member of the crew of the aircraft in which your son was flying, that the six other members of the crew lost their lives and were buried in the cemetery at Hoffnungsthal, approximately ten miles east
/of
A. Palmer, Esq.,
52, Bellman Avenue,
Gravesend,
Kent.
[page break]
of Cologne. The report adds that their graves are 14-19 in Row B.
The Air Council desire me to convey to you their profound sympathy in your bereavement, and to say how deeply they deplore the loss of this gallant officer.
I am, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,
Charles Evans
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Robert Palmer's father from the air ministry casualty branch
Description
An account of the resource
The Air Council had learned that his son Acting Squadron Leader Robert Antony Maurice Palmer VC DFC RAF was now known to have lost his life as a result of air operations on 24 December 1944. According to information from one surviving crew, the other six members of the crew lost their lives.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
C Evans
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-09-27
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-09-27
1944-12-24
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Kent
Germany
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Wahner Heide
England--Gravesend (Kent)
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
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Two page typewritten letter
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SPalmerRAM115772v10008
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Frances Grundy
aircrew
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
final resting place
killed in action
pilot
Victoria Cross