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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/3/6/ANocchieriF170202.2.mp3
b83e3fdf3e05eaa55090f4da0746ef37
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Title
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Nocchieri, Franco
Franco Nocchieri
F Nocchieri
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IBCC Digital Archive
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One oral history interview with Franco Nocchieri, who recollects his wartime experiences in Pavia and Voghera.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2017-02-02
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Nocchieri, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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FA: Sono Andi Filippo e sto per intervistare Franco Nocchieri. Siamo a Gropello Cairoli in provincia di Pavia, è il 2 febbraio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Nocchieri per aver permesso questa intervista. E’ inoltre presente all’intervista Carlo Intropido, amico dell’intervistato. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Nocchieri, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza durante il periodo, diciamo della Seconda Guerra Mondiale?
GN: Sì, sì, Allora, esperienza della guerra, vediamo un po’. Posso cominciare da Casteggio. A Casteggio c’è una zona che si chiama il Pistornile e là c’è, c’era, penso che ci sia ancora, un istituto o un orfanotrofio, giusto? Quando c’era la guerra io sono stato lì, da ragazzino, proprio, no. Il problema, il problema qui è, era la fame, lì si soffriva proprio la fame era fame, perché sia a mezzogiorno come la sera, patate in brodo. Una scodellina di alluminio, perché adesso non è di alluminio, no, tant’è che l’alluminio veniva su con roba bollente, no. Mezzogiorno, sera, patate, e noi altri ragazzini, era talmente la fame che scavalcavamo il muro eccetera eccetera e andavamo a rubare il fondo del, il crostone, così in dialetto, della verza, non il crostone dentro la verza ma quello proprio, per far la fame, per eh. E sì, poi qui, siccome poi, sì, era ormai iniziata la guerra no, c’erano ancora i materassi con dentro, come si chiama quel coso lì, del, del, le pannocchie, come si chiamava quelle cose lì? La, la.
CI: Il granturco.
FN: Del granoturco, la pannocchia. Allora i materassi erano fatti con quello, ecco.
CI: Ah.
FN: Lo sai, io non lo so, penso, cioè eh. Comunque. E poi in questo istituto c’era il problema della notte per le cimici. C’erano tante di quelle cimici che ogni tanto cercavano di pulire un dormitorio di cento ragazzini. Che, ogni tanto, cercavano di pulire e col martello picchiavano sui letti e volavano giù tutta una striscia di cimici [laughs] e veniva poi pulito con lo zolfo. Mettevano lo zolfo in mezzo a questo camerone, lo bruciavano e, e poi ritornavano, ecco questa era la vita di allora. Questo in grosso modo, no. Casteggio. Perché, e no, tu non puoi parlare perché se parlate così, mi fa le domande lui forse io vado più avanti no, perché sono stato lì, perché ero stato preso, adottato da una persona, che era un po’ matto, allora non si guardava tanto, adesso per adottare un bambino, per dire, c’è una burocrazia che ti, taccate al tram, beh sai una volta andavi al nido qui a Pavia e o bene o male prendevi un bambino e te lo portavi a casa. E io sono finito così uno che aveva poi, eh, che aveva l’osteria che poi racconto man mano vado avanti no, ecco. Ed ero andato a finire quel, quello lì di quell’osteria a Reggio, come lo chiamavano. Siccome era un donnaiolo, aveva l’osteria no e per liberarsi di me mi metteva negli istituti. Dopo mi veniva a prendere a secondo i suoi giri così. Beh, questo era la’, poi c’è, andiamo a Voghera, Voghera, qui incomincia sempre in un orfanotrofio cui ero e qui la scuola, una volta facevano, venivano promossi quelli che agli insegnanti davano il salame e invece io a Voghera mi avevano promosso in base ai bombardamenti, no. Cioè, ero in un istituto, proprio in fondo di Voghera, era una scuola professionale che era davanti alla stazione, giusto? Voghera. Non mi ricordo più come si chiama quella lì, niente. Eh beh, andavo in quella scuola. Però di scuola ne ho fatta pochissima perché come partivamo dall’istituto, eravamo quattro cinque ragazzi, beh, quando andavamo in istituto, quando eravamo a metà strada suonava l’allarme. E noi eravamo contenti, perché invece di, invece di andare a scuola andavamo in giro per la strada a giocare, ma però, quando suonava l’allarme, a scuola non si entrava. Quindi quasi tutti i giorni era così, di conseguenza, un giorno di scuola, un giorno sotto i bombardamenti. Perchè lì bombardavano per ore, non hanno mai preso la scuola, ma gli aerei hanno incominciato a rompere le scatole. E invitavano di andare nei rifugi ma io come ragazzino, noi ragazzini ci guardavamo bene dall’andare nei rifugi. Quando arrivavano gli aerei così, per noi era tutto un, eravamo quasi contenti perché vedevamo questi aerei [makes a noise] e che, questo Voghera. Naturalmente il problema della fame, a Voghera io non l’avevo perché nell’istituto bene o male si mangiava. Poi avevo una tessera del pane falsa, ma o bene o male con la tessera del pane, ma insomma, con il mangiare o bene o male ce la cavavamo, tempo di guerra. E poi, e poi dove incomincio, boh, dove, dove, ecco, allora. Io abitavo nel paese Campospinoso Albaredo, sai dov’è? Campospinoso Albaredo è stato proprio la mia vita fino a quando è finita la guerra, no. Dunque, di Campospinoso Albaredo posso dire per esempio quando arrivavano i tedeschi, che arrivavano con cannoni, mitragliatrici, su carri trainati da cavalli, ma tanto belli e grossi, e passavano e noi ragazzi tutti contenti perché vedevamo tutte ste cose qua. Poi, ah, nel paese, lì a Campospinoso Albaredo la fame non c’era proprio come paese perché le uova o bene o male c’erano. Poi c’era un macellaio che uccideva tutte le settimane la sua mucca poi c’era chi uccideva il maiale, l’unico problema sì a volte mancava la carne, lo zucchero però si salvava coi gatti, lì i gatti ne giravano ben pochi perché mi ricordo io che mangiavamo i gatti come si mangiava un coniglio in tempo di guerra. In tempo di guerra era un po’ spinoso beh! E i tedeschi non hanno mai mai mai mai disturbato per la verità eh, passavano poi avevano fatto una specie di accampamento ma lasciavano vivere. [pauses] Dunque più che i tedeschi davano fastidio i repubblicani, i fascisti, quello lì sì, i repubblicani, durante, io parlo perché ero dentro, in un’osteria no, qui facevano da mangiare eccetera eccetera, lì quando era mezzogiorno mi pare sì, c’era il giornale radio che parlava il Duce e bisognava alzarsi in piedi. Se uno non si alzava in piedi intanto che c’era il telegiornale erano guai seri. Potevi essere prelevato dai fascisti, prelevato e andavi a finire a Villa Triste Broni e lì, beh, lo sai, potevi sparire completamente, no? quello lì. Dunque, ah, sì. I tedeschi, i tedeschi, eh dunque, i tedeschi, c’era l’osteria, l’unica volta che hanno dato fastidio è che sono venuti lì a cena una sera, erano una qundicina o più, hann cenato, tutti armati eh! Han cenato lì eccetera, poi hanno incominciato a bere, si sono scaldati un po’, eh me lo ricordo proprio, ero un ragazzino insomma no, ecco, e a un bel momento si sono levati proprio tutti tutti proprio nudi come dio li ha creati, tutti eh, e hanno cominciato a cantare e bere, cantare e bere, così sono andati avanti per un po’, poi sono scesi in una, c’era una cantina grossa sotto nella osteria, sono scesi in quella cantina lì e hanno aperto tutti i rubinetti delle botti, io ero terrorizzato perché poi dopo il Risù cher era quello che mi aveva preso in adozione era andato a dormire e m’ha lasciato da solo. Io ero terrorizzato, non tanto per i tedeschi ma ero terrorizzato da questo Risù perché poi alla mattina le botte erano tutte mie, no? Comunque hanno fatto un disastro, se ne sono presi e sono andati. L’unica cosa, no, no, no, loro non hanno pagato, no no, hanno mangiato e hanno bevuto e tutto, continuavano a ballare per l’osteria, lì così nudi nudi, poi sono andati alcuni nudi hanno preso il loro fucile e se ne sono andati e buonanotte suonatori. Che avevano un accampamento lì. Però nel paese poi era arrivato il terrore, c’è stato un momento che era arrivato il terrore dei mongoli. Perché si diceva che erano arrivati i mongoli che prendevano le donne, via eccetera. E il paese c’è stato una volta che era stato terrorizzato per questo, che c’erano, che erano poi, erano arrivati alla frazione lì attorno, non mi ricordo più le frazioni, per andare a San Cipriano giù di lì, c’erano delle cascine e questi mongoli, che erano arrivati insieme ai tedeschi, li chiamavano mongoli, poi io non so se erano mongoli, quel che erano. Andiamo avanti. Il pericolo soprattutto in questa osteria era Radio Londra perché c’era il Risù così che non era un fascista, no, e lui riceveva, tramite Radio Londra, e poi trasmetteva ai partigiani, tutto di nascosto. Io ero lì e di notte lui accendeva Radio Londra e l’ascoltava, io ascoltavo, ma eh, però era, di quello io avevo paura, seppure come bambino in sostanza, capivo e avevo paura perché se ti prendevano mentre ascoltavi Radio Londra ti fucilavano sul posto lì, non c’era via di scampo. Dunque, poi andiamo avanti. I tedeschi quando poi c’è stata quasi il fine della guerra, i tedeschi si ritiravano no e come erano andati giù tornavano indietro coi carri coi cannoni e allora c’era un ordine quasi tacito di non disturbare e di lasciarli andare, a lasciare passare perché poi hanno cominciato i partigiani e dei partigiani avevamo paura che disturbassero queste colonne, no, allora anche quelli i tedeschi avrebbero reagito e allora come tacito passavano zitto lì eccetera. Mentre invece poi qui al Ponte della Becca tre o quattro cinque partigiani, quello sono testimone, hanno arrestato un cento o più di tedeschi perché si sono messi d’accordo mentre i tedeschi si erano raggruppati lì, prima del Ponte della Becca, a Campospinoso andando giù verso Pavia, Tornello, è il paese, Tornello, subito dopo Tornello si sono piazzati i tedeschi e quattro cinque partigiani hanno fatto del fracasso, cioè quattro cinque, uno qui, uno là, uno là, uno sparava, l’altro dava ordini, l’altro così, e invece erano solo quattro, cinque. I tedeschi si sono spaventati e si sono arresi quattro, cinque uomini, in sostanza, no. Andiamo avanti. Oh, poi arriva, ah beh sì, quando ero ragazzino c’era il Balilla [laughs] c’era il Balilla che il Risù, sempre quello che mi adottava, non ne voleva sapere, di fatti io sono stato uno dei fortunati che non ha messo su perché era obbligatorio mettere su la divisa con tutte ste’ cose, i ragazzini ci tenevano, non perché erano fascisti ma da ragazzini avere una divisa così, poi, invece io sono stato esonerato però io ero, c’era la sede dei fascisti era proprio a fianco della osteria dove, che l’osteria era responsabile di quel locale, un grande salone, che poi, finito la guerra è servito come balera insomma, no, e lì c’era una biblioteca con diversi fucili e la biblioteca io prendevo i libri, mi piaceva leggere, no, libri del Salgari allora eh, e poi i fucili, mi divertivo con i fucili, li prendevo, andavo fuori nell’orto, sparare così, racconto cose così, siccome hai detto di raccontare e io racconto quel che mi viene in mente, no, poi comincia la Radio Londra l’ho detto no? . Ecco, per cominciare la, i bombardamenti, ecco, qui sì, dunque. Bombardamenti io mi ricordo che incominciavano a arrivare i caccia quattro cinque caccia, facevano un bordello di quei bordelli, ma come quando passano quelli aerei supersonici, lì, i Tornado, ecco, era quel rumore lì, ne arrivavano quattro cinque insieme, tutti [unclear] e arrivavano all’improvviso no e giravano sempre intorno a il Ponte della Becca, prendevano verso Pavia ah, eh non mi ricordo più, beh, c’era un posto che era una polveriera, una polveriera grossa, adesso sono tutte case, non so se sai dov’è, allora, passi il Ponte della Becca, vai avanti, poi c’è la strada, beh insomma è un punto che c’è una grande curva che poi sono ritrovati arrivi a Pavia il [unclear], una volta era Darsu, una grande curva, la strada che va giù, una grande curva, orca, non mi ricordo più i nomi, prendi la cartina e vedi. Beh, adesso son tutti villette, case, lì c’era la polveriera, e questi caccia giravano intorno al Ponte della Becca e a quella polveriera lì perché lì i tedeschi avevano messo giù la contraerea e la contraerea, quando arrivavano i caccia, sparava ma poi un bel momento i caccia lo facevano tacere [laughs] mi sono spiegato, se no, sì, piombavano e bombardavano anche, no. Per esempio, il Ponte della Becca l’hanno bombardato un centinaio di volte, l’hanno mai buttato giù, lo foravano, l’hanno buttato giù i caccia l’ultimo giorno di guerra. E allora sono andati giù, hann buttato giù i piloni di là, un pilone e una volta sul Ponte della Becca io giravo con la bicicletta e avevo un’anguria di dietro. Venivo verso Broni e l’hann bombardato io c’ero sopra, l’hann bucato però non mi sono fatto niente. Ho portato a casa un anguria intera [laughs]. Ponte della Becca. Arrivano i caccia. Quando i caccia erano riusciti a fare tacere l’artiglieria, allora arrivavano i bombardieri. Arrivavano parecchi, no, quattro cinque qui, quattro cinque là, avevano un rumore poi anche strano, una cosa e lì lanciavano giù le bombe sul Ponte della Becca, sul, su quella polveriera lì e sul Ponte del Ticino e noi ragazzi dei genitori non ce ne siamo neanche accorti dalle case perché i caccia mitragliavano eh, non scherzavano mica, facevano di quelle mitragliate e noi invece fuori a guardare perché era, ci piaceva vedere, no. Erano tremendi quei, quelli lì, quei caccia lì erano americani, non so qual’è, però erano anche cattivi perché per esempio correvano dietro a chi andava in bicicletta. Se vedevano una bicicletta sulla strada, quella la facevano fuori. C’era uno lì che era un sordomuto che andava in giro con un carretto con i buoi, carro con i buoi no, ma lui non sentiva, andava tranquillo [laughs]. L’hanno fatto fuori, proprio. Erano tremendi eh! Sparavano, andavano di quà, li sentivi e vedevi proprio le mitragliate che se vedevano sulla strada era verso sempre le quattro, tre e mezza, le quattro, se vedevano qualcuno sulla strada, quello aveva finito di vivere. I caccia, i bombardieri no, i bombardieri buttavano giù le loro bombe poi le vedevi poi eh, poi se ne andavano e via. Tutti i giorni, più o meno tutti i giorni, ma per un bel po’ eh. La polveriera l’hann fatta saltare parecchie volte che poi da Campospinoso Albaredo si vedevano proprio le fiamme, che venivano su, le botte via eccetera no. Eh, sempre in fatto di bombardamenti, il Pippo, famoso Pippo, no, che, quello proprio l’ho vissuto in pieno io, il famoso Pippo, no, che arrivava lì, lì le luci, se vedevano un lumino era, era, [laughs], e il Pippo arrivava alla sera sempre a un certo orario e buttava giù, questo lo posso testimoniare bene, buttava giù degli oggetti come delle navi, ne avevo una io, navi in miniatura, ma belle eh, io ne avevo una, disinnescata me l’avevano, erano proprio anche fatte bene, oppure aeroplanini oppure penne stilografiche e naturalmente Pippo le buttava giù, no, oltre che prendere le luci, se vedeva una luce, un lucino, appena appena, si accendeva un fiammifero, quello lì lo vedeva, era tremendo e buttava giù sti oggetti e noi naturalmente da ragazzini incoscienti andavamo a raccoglierli. Poi siamo stati avvisati che. Comunque c’è stato, questo lo racconto perché mi è sempre poi rimasto anche in mente. C’è stato un ragazzino della mia età no, eravamo sempre in gruppo, no, e ha raccolto un bordello di queste cose qui. Non sapevamo ancora che avevano questo effetto e ha raccolto e si è messo nella testa di andare a pescare. Buttandole dentro secondo noi, no, buttandole scoppiavano. E difatti siamo andati in riva al Po e io non so qui e lì sempre ci siamo sparsi per venire ed il pesce così così, lui è rimasto da solo e buttava dentro queste cose qui. E poi un bel momento una è scoppiata, l’ha fatto scoppiare queste, l’han raccolto su col cucchiaio quel ragazzino lì. E’ scoppiato anche lui, tutto un. Bene. Disgrazia vuole che fanno il funerale a questo ragazzo, tutto una fila, il paese Campospinoso aveva, c’era una strada dritta che andava a Baselica, un paesino lì, una frazione, un paesino, allora era una frazione, dove c’era il cimitero. Su quella strada lì vuoi mica dire che arriva, che arrivi i caccia proprio mentre c’è il funerale un fuggi fuggi generale nei fossi hanno mitragliato la cassa perché poi non c’erano i carri, la macchina, quando facevano un funerale portavano tutto a spalla no, e quello che avevano, portavano in spalla sto ragazzino che poi c’era dentro della carne tutta maciullata l’hann messo giù, preso in mezzo alla strada, son scappati nei fossi, hanno mitragliato anche la cassa, l’hann forata in un modo, una mitragliata di quelle lì, no, quando sono andati via poi hanno continuato il funerale con tutta sta cassa rotta. Mah, niente. Ecco questa, la storia, questa era del Pippo. Dunque, ecco, quindi, maciullato durante il funerale. Ponte Becca, dunque, poi io non so cosa devo raccontare ancora, fame no, della Becca. Ah sì, io, per mangiare, io come ragazzino sempre su ordine di quel pazzo, io lo chiamo pazzo, mi mandava a prendere il formaggio ad Albuzzano. Albuzzano c’era uno che aveva, allevava maiali, aveva una specie, faceva del formaggio, il burro, e io, ecco da Campospinoso andavo in bicicletta ad Albuzzano. Però io ero sempre terrorizzato perché alla fine del Ponte della Becca c’erano sempre lì i tedeschi che fermavano tutti, chi era in bicicletta magari gliela portavano via e io passavo lì col zaino e [pauses] non mi hanno mai fe rmato né niente e che quando tornavo col zaino dietro, con il formaggio, specie di formaggio, il formaggio, il burro eccetera, quelle cose lì, avevo il terrore che mi fermassero, non tanto il terrore dei tedeschi quanto per il Risù, quello lì era il motivo che poi prendevo un bordello di botte perché avevo avevo preso tante, se la prendeva con me mica coi tedeschi quello lì, ecco. Non mi hanno mai fermato, sono sempre passato avanti e indietro, quasi tutte le settimane con la mia scorta di formaggio, me la sono cavata così. Andiamo avanti. Ecco, poi allora qui siamo già [pauses] per tenere, c’era andavo a Stradella con la bicicletta a prendere il ghiaccio perché allora per tenere fresca la roba c’erano dei piccoli frigoriferi, scatoloni, mettevi dentro il ghiaccio e sempre con il pericolo dei caccia eh, perché, però me la sono sempre cavata fuori. Poi, vediamo un pò, andiamo avanti, eh!, E poi comincia la, i partigiani. Dunque, nei partigiani, è successo che, era tutto su lì, Cigognola, sulle zone, , sulle colline di Broni, no, Cigognola, tutti quei posti lì, partigiani del paese, ero andato su a fare il partigiano, no, però l’inverno [laughs] faceva freddo e sulle colline non vivevo e allora sono ritornato al paese, c’era un segretario che si chiamava podestà, podestà, era una brava persona e invece di farli, arrestare è andato d’accordo con i tedeschi in modo che, hanno, c’era, hanno organizzato la Todt, si chiamava la Todt, per fare le trincee sull’argine del Po, che era divertimento per noi ragazzi perché ci andavamo dentro poi a giocare, no, e hann fatto la Todt tutti sti giovani sono andati lì se la sono cavata fuori, però poi sono saltati fuori i fascisti, quelli sono diventati pericolosi più, ma di un bel po’ più dei tedeschi che poi era venuto un po’ anche l’odio, sai com’è, no. C’è stato un giorno che io ero a Broni e tornavo verso il paese. Quando sono arrivato davanti al cimitero di Broni, quattro cinque partigiani, no, fascisti, fascisti, quattro cinque fascisti mi, m’hann fermato, ero ragazzino, mi hanno fermato e mi hanno detto: ’Vieni, vieni qui perché tu sarai testimonio di quello che facciamo’. E lì c’era la ferrovia, sotto lì c’era la ferrovia, c’erano, cosa sarà stato, una quindicina di giovanotti, vero, e quattro e quattr’otto li hanno uccisi tutti e io ho visto, proprio visto, no, che coi mitra, lo Sten, avevano lo Sten loro, una specie di mitra che era lo Sten, tutto vuoto così, li hann fucilati e ‘adesso tu vai in paese e avvisi che noi abbiamo fatto questo’ e io sono andato in paese e ho detto: ’guarda, i hanno fatto questo e questo’. E c’erano dentro dei giovanotti del paese di Campospinoso Albaredo quello, che quello mi è rimasto impresso anche quello. Dunque, poi, e poi basta [pauses] e adesso io più o meno io ho raccontato quello che mi è venuto in mente poi non lo so, adesso sta a voi farmi le domande.
FA: Come, vuole dirci come si chiamava quello che lei chiama Risù, di nome?
FN: Ah, beh è morto, sì, Bruschi Alessandro. Quello lì, sì, era tremendo quello lì, è stato proprio il mio carnefice sotto un certo aspetto, no, poi dopo io un bel momento quando sono arrivato a quindici anni non ce l’ho più fatta.
CI: Fiorentini non l’hai mai visto?
FN: Fiorentini?
CI: Fiorentini, la belva, quello che comandava?
FN: Ah, sì, sì, ecco, questo potevo, questo era di Varzi, quello lì, o no? Bravo, quello l’ho visto. Cioè l’hanno fatto passare per il paese di Broni anche dentro una gabbia con un carro tirato dai buoi fino a Pavia e lui era dentro e naturalmente quando passava per il paese chi con l’ombrello, chi sputava, chi, quello l’ho visto sì. Fiorentini deve essere stato. Sì, sì, sì, sì. Poi dopo tutto questo, questo Risù, quando sono arrivato a quindici anni, poi non ce l’ho più fatta perché lui, lui picchiava sempre, no, e allora mi sono ribellato e sono scappato, via. Lui ha chiamato i carabinieri, carabinieri sono venuti da me, ma io detto: ’quello non è mio padre, se mi portate indietro poi io scappo ancora’. E i carabinieri allora, si sono fatti vedere una volta, non mi hanno mica detto più niente. Poi dopo io ho fatto tutta un’altra vita che poi sono entrato nell’Artigianelli, ma la guerra era finita oramai. Io gli Artigianelli li ho fatti, sì proprio alla fine della guerra. Perchè dopo io sono andato, ho trovato tutti bei genitori lì, poi è stata lunga la faccenda, no, tutto lì.
FA: E quando bombardavano il Ponte della Becca, la polveriera, era di giorno quindi?
FN: Sempre di giorno, i caccia e i bombardieri, sempre di giorno, sempre nel pomeriggio, più o meno dalle tre e mezza alle quattro, praticamente tutti i giorni quelli arrivavano, prima i caccia che facevano un bordello che durava anche una bella mezz’ora e più, che andavano e poi tornavano, andavano [makes a droning noise] facevano poi non li sentivi più, poi tornavano e facevano diversi giri. Poi veniva un silenzio mortale perché poi dopo bisognava raccogliere i cocci, per dire, no, per vedere i disastri che facevano, no, e poi toccavano, e allora poi arrivavano i bombardieri che li sentivi proprio da lontano, facevano anche rumore [makes a droning noise] impressionava anche se, tra l’altro, no, e bombardavano quasi sempre sempre sempre. Come arrivavano i bombardieri dopo bombardavano. La contraerea veniva messa a tacere, vero, e allora i bombardieri arrivavano tranquilli, anche il Pippo, la contraerea non riusciva mai a fare niente perché puntavano quei famosi fari, no, un po’ ma non lo buscavano mai perché poi tra l’altro Pippo veniva, girava sopra a bassa quota. Si credeva sempre che era in alto, no, ma invece era sempre a bassissima quota Pippo anzi sì, se era un giorno o una notte con la luna così rischiavi di vederlo, se era buio buio non lo vedevi però se era lo vedevi proprio, sempre a bassa quota è stato Pippo. La gente ha sempre creduto che era in alto, chissà dove, ecco perché la contraerea non è mai riuscito a prendere quegli aeroplani lì che loro con i fari andavano in alto ma lui era in basso. Non so più cosa dire.
FA: E’ mai riuscito a vederlo lei?
FN: Sì, sì. Ah io, poi tra l’altro ero curioso, ero tremendo, ero un po’ il capogruppo di sti giovanotti, quei ragazzotti lì, no, e anche quando arrivava Pippo io scappavo fuori dall’osteria così e di notte per vedere eccetera, non stavo fermo un minuto, sono riuscito a vederlo sì, parecchie volte. Sempre di sfuggita eh. [unclear] Dava un senso che era sempre lì invece era dappertutto. Correvi da una parte lo sentivi di là, correvi dall’altra lo sentivi, era sempre, magari, magari erano anche in due o tre, di quei aerei, però dava il senso sempre di uno, il Pippo, così chiamato, così famoso, per noi ragazzi era una, era quasi una, ma ci piaceva anche per dire, non ci rendevamo conto del pericolo, per quello che.
FA: Non avevate paura?
FN: No non, io non ho mai avuto paura, no no no. Io l’unica cosa che avevo paura era Radio Londra, Radio Londra.
CI: Posso parlare?
FN: Parla!
CI: Tant’è vero che Pippo avevamo pensato che a un certo momento che non era uno, erano in tanti.
FN: Sì eh.
CI: Si trovano dappertutto. Lui lo conoscevano tutti, lo vedevano tutti in tutti i posti, sempre lo stesso orario.
FN: Sì, sì, erano tanti.
CI: A un certo momento, ma sono in tanti, non può essere solo uno.
FN: Per noi era.
CI: E’ qui, è là, era, è dappertutto.
FN: Cioè per noi, peri noi tutti, anche la gente così, era uno, difatti, Pippo era uno. Però chissà quanti erano in giro perché il rumore era sempre quello, in qualsiasi angolo dove andavi, sentivi sempre quel rumore lì, quindi erano in tanti. Però era uno. Come dire [unclear], loro facevano il loro dovere, no. Gli adulti avevano paura, ma noi ragazzi no, neanche dei caccia così, noi non avevamo paura. Per noi era un soprappiù, era vorrei quasi dire un divertimento, un divertimento perché era anche un po’ una novità vedere sti bolidi, quegli apparecchi, il baccano, poi le mitragliate, perché vedi, ci sono state parecchie volte che vedevi proprio le pallottole che viaggiavano davanti a te perché quelli lì. E c’era la lomba, ecco qui, lo sfollamento, Milano, i Milanesi che si scaricavano proprio a Broni, tutti quei posti lì, no. C’era la Lombarda, che era la società di corriere, era così famosa, le corriere che andavano a Carbonella doppie col mantice in mezzo, quelle sempre puntuali alle sei, non sono mai state bombardate né mitragliate, si capisce che forse c’era una specie di accordo perché partivano da Milano, venivano a Pavia e se, erano sempre un quattro cinque corriere, neh, doppie, alle sei Campospinoso Albaredo alle sei passavano, si fermavano all’osteria perché si fermavano a bere eccetera eccetera, no, cariche anche fin sopra, andavano a Carbonella ma quelle cariche di persone, uomini, donne, di tutti i colori, arrivavano e andavano verso Broni, Stradella, così, la Lombarda si chiamava, sai perché quello me lo ricordo! Però non sono mai stati mitragliati. Mitragliavano uno in bicicletta, per dire, mentre quelli lì non li hanno mai, mai, mai toccati. Si capisce che, come ho detto, o era un accordo o sapevano che erano sfollati perché gli aerei li vedevano quelli lì eh perché erano grossi così quelle corriere, non so se c’è ancora quella società lì a Milano la Lombarda, non lo so. Però era quella insomma. Fate domande voialtri vi rispondo.
FA: Invece quando era a Voghera che era più piccolo, andavano sulla stazione?
FN: Solo sulla stazione.
FA: Solo lì.
FN: I caccia. Solo sulla stazione, almeno io, per me era quello. Ma però mica sempre bombardavano. Passavano tutti i giorni praticamente perché noi partivamo lì da quell’istituto lì, sì, traversavamo, perché era proprio l’inizio dove c’era, non so se il prato con le carceri, le carceri, davanti c’era quell’orfanotrofio lì, traversavamo tutto Voghera, e suonava, quando eravamo a metà Voghera, a metà strada, suonava l’allarme, che noi l’aspettavamo, cioè noi ragazzini andavamo a scuola, speriamo che suona l’allarme, speriamo che suona, la scuola, suonava l’allarme e loro, sai, tutta la gente scappava nei rifugi. , Noi invece scappavamo, quel fiume, no il fiume, fiumiciattolo, era cioè la Staffora, quando era in piena era tremendo, la Staffora c’era, c’era, c’è ancora, no, scappavamo lì, giocavamo lì, a tirare sassi. E lì bombardavano o se non altro passavano per spaventare più che altro. Naturalmente le scuole venivano sospese e noi siamo sempre stati promossi lo stesso. C’era la maestra di italiano che era una sfegatata, una fascista, beh stavo dicendo, una [unclear], una fascista ma era brava come e nell’esame finale, per essere promosso, mi ha chiamato: ‘Nocchieri!’. Bisognava alzarsi in piedi sull’attenti perché allora che eran tutti , e ‘chi sei tu?’, eh beh non so neanche come mi e’ venuto in mente: ‘sono un italiano e amo la mia patria’, seduto, promosso. Io sono stato promosso in italiano con quella frase lì [laughs]. Per dire no, e ora c’era un maestro, un insegnante, era un prete, lo chiamavamo Bà. Bà, l’era cattivo, aveva sempra una verga in mano. Bà se non sapeva, non rispondeva, ti chiamava davanti a lui, con la verga, ti faceva mettere le mani cos’ì, no, e poi ti picchiava il Bà. Se per disgrazia tu facevi così ne prendevi dieci volte il doppio. Diventava cattivo, picchiava, però ai ragazzi, c’erano dei ragazzi che venivano dalla campagna, no, e li mandava fuori dalla scuola scavalcando un muro a prendere, farsi dare una gallina, o le uova, e quelli erano fortunati perché quelli che avevano la cascina, che avevano le galline, andavano a casa, prendevano la gallina e gliela portavano, invece io, con altri, eravamo un quattro cinque, dell’orfanotrofio, dove andavamo a prendere le galline e insomma io, alzo la mano, vado a prendere e mi ha lasciato andare io e un altro e quando siamo rimasti fuori dalla scuola, e adesso cosa facciamo, dove, come facciamo a portare una gallina, quello se, se non portiamo una gallina ci da tante di quelle botte, stiamo, e noi siamo andati a rubare le galline [laughs], beh in un pollaio abbiamo rubato le galline abbiamo, sai, le avventure della scuola. Della guerra perché quello lì si capisce che aveva sempre fame, no, e allora lo mandava, non poteva andare fuori adesso viene neanche da parlare, ma allora e vabbè, c’è chi mandava a prendere le uova o bene o male bisognava tornare indietro con qualche cosa e allora noi, per non essere interrogati o giù di lì, chiedevamo di andare fuori di scuola ma per noi era brutta perché non avevamo i genitori, la cascina, loro, bisognava andare raccontando, c’era un ragazzo che era diventato, ma quello era grande, cleptomano, tutti i giorni andava dentro in qualche negozio e rubava o un salame o delle scatole di marmellata o rubava, o lo zucchero, rubava sempre un bordello, noi lo sapevamo, quando arrivava in istituto, cioè un collegio non era un istituto, ero, , arrivava in collegio, gli buttevamo su una mantella sulla testa, gli portavamo via tutto [laughs] e lui il giorno dopo era daccapo, tanto per divertimen to, per dire! . Sì perché c’era l’orfanotrofio c’erano i maschi da una parte e le femmine dall’altra e naturalmente noi maschi quelle, [laughs] le femmine le erano un po’, su, mi spiego, e allora cercavamo di andare di nascosto dalle femmine ma c’erano sempre le suore che ci bloccavano e le studiavamo in tutti i modi per cercare di andare di là. Le avventure di istituto. E in tempo, sì in tempo di guerra lì, ecco, c’era un orto grandissimo lì dietro l’istituto in cui si erano piazzati, hann messo giù le tende tutto, gli indiani, mi viene in mente adesso, un accampamento di indiani. Dall’alto dell’istituto si vedeva questo accampamento. E noialtri, io sempre in testa perché le combinavo sempre, le tende eravamo convinti che c’era qualche cosa di buono, del cioccolato, così, e allora buttavamo giù i cuscini in quell’accampamento lì l’inizio, però per andare là bisognava passare dove c’era il reparto delle femmine, e o bene o male aspettavamo che passassero suore, c’erano delle suore un po’ anzianotte, e quando passava una suora, due o tre sotto là e zac!. E c’è stato un giorno che abbiamo portato via un sacco, no, due o tre sacchi di roba così. Eravamo convinti che era zucchero, li abbiamo portati su nelle camerate e poi quando li abbiamo aperti era tutto pepe e allora pepe dappertutto, un disastro solo, da ragazzi, mi è venuto in mente adesso. Li indiani, c’erano anche indiani in tempo di guerra, sì, sì, me lo ricordo, il pepe, lì eccetera. Avevo una bomba a mano io. C’era uno del mio paese che è stato chiamato a fare il militare e allora era stato traferito lì nella ferrovia, la stazione di dietro lì[unclear], le ferrovie insomma ecco, faceva il militare lì. Io quando ho saputo che era lì, allora andavo a trovarlo con un altro compagno così, perché ho detto, la fame non era un problema ma c’erano dei momenti che facevi la fame anche lì, no, la fame è la fame! E allora quando andavo lì a trovare questo amico, diciamo così del paese, preparava sempre qualcosa da mangiare, ci dava da mangiare sempre in due, traversavamo tutti i binari, nessuno ci diceva niente, traversavamo i binari, andavamo lì, ci dava da mangiare. E un giorno mi ha dato una bomba a mano, la Balilla, si chiamavano Balilla quelle lì, e me l’ha data lui e ero diventato il padrone dell’istituto con quella Balilla, del collegio con quella Balilla lì. Poi lo sapevano tutti che l’avevo e allora tutti avevano paura di me [laughs]. Poi un bel momento glielo data indietro perché mi aveva spiegato di non tirare questa qui, se no scoppiava e allora poi glielo data indietro. Tempo di guerra, eh. Dunque, sì poi c’era quello lì, l’ho detto, accennato, che ecco, di qui anche i ragazzi avevano paura. C’era la Villa Triste a Broni. Proprio dove c’è la piazza a Broni grande lì c’è ancora quella villa lì. Ecco, lì è dove entravano dentro e sparivano. Uccidevano eccetera, la chiamavano Villa Triste, che l’aveva in mano prima i tedeschi poi i fascisti. Eh ma, soprattutto quando l’hanno presa i fascisti, allora lì sparivano parecchie persone, anche del mio paese ne sono sparite diversi. Quelli li uccidevano o chissà ecco. Di questa qui da ragazzino, che da ragazzino avevamo paura difatti io andavo a Broni sempre mandato a prendere qualcosa dal Risù, da fare le spese e via eccetera, io poi soldi ne avevo in abbondanza perché li prendevo dove c’erano, c’era, erano nell’osteria, no, sapevo anch’io che, e c’era un cassetto con i soldi che prendevo, io ne prendevo solo una manciata, mettevo in tasca, andavo a Broni, Stradella, andavo nelle pasticcerie, a mangiare la cioccolata, i biscotti, ne facevo delle scorpacciate, ci andavo di frequente, no, per fare delle commissioni, nello stesso tempo io vedevo e questa villa qui, anch’io da ragazzo ci giravo al largo perché avevo paura, anche era entrata un po’ nella nostra mentalità, no, e allora, Villa Triste sì, c’era a Broni sì. [unclear] La Todt l’ho detto, sordomuto quello là che l’hanno ucciso, Pippo.
FA: E a Broni e Stradella invece non bombardavano?
FN: No. Sì, poteva fare disastri Pippo, perché Pippo era anche lì. Però Broni, Stradella non è mai stata bombardata, che sappia io, no, no, no. Che poi Broni e Stradella erano diventate il centro vero e proprio degli sfollati milanesi eh, perché tutti i giorni c’era la Lombarda, c’erano queste corriere lombarde, tre, quattro, a volte sei, tutte in fila e si scaricavano tutte a Broni e a Stradella. Poi andavano su nelle colline ma tutto il giorno era una fiumana di persone, però il paese così, Broni e Stradella, le ferrovie, no, non è mai stata, anche l’industria che c’era, le robe via, la Gea, tutte quelle ditte lì grosse abbastanza ma non sono mai state bombardate quelle zone lì, che sappia io. Allora, fate domande e io vi rispondo.
FA: Va bene.
FN: [unclear]
FA: Vuole dirci qualcos’altro?
FN: No, [unclear] sono magari dopo quando siete andati via mi viene in mente delle altre. Tedeschi ubriachi, le fucilazioni, testimoni, sono cose vere queste eh, che ho raccontato, mica le invento eh. Società, avevo dimenticato società la Lombarda, la Lombarda la chiamavano, biblioteca, giovanotti, tedeschi ritirata, , amico maciullato, non mi ricordo più il nome, era un ragazzino, aveva la mia età, funerale, anche qua hanno mitragliato, la Todt, la Todt anche quella lì, faceva, che poi era il disastro quando c’era il Po in piena, con tutto l’argine bucato perché c’è stato una volta che poi il Po era arrivato fino a Campospinoso Albaredo, sì, me li ricordo un anno e appunto perché l’argine era bucato e l’acqua, era bucato da queste trincee che facevano, no, era bucato e fino a Campospinoso Albaredo una volta è arrivato il Po, anche lì c’era un bel, era un bel disastro eh, e allora e poi finita la guerra allora andavamo a prendere le lepri, correvamo dietro le lepri perché non c’era più il divieto di caccia perché in quel paese lì, Campospinoso Albaredo era il paese, era un padrone solo, gli Arnaboldi, e ho conosciuto Arnaboldi, proprio il figlio, la madre, la figlia, era un padrone solo, terreni e tutto.
CI: Era ricco.
FN: Eh?
CI: Era ricco.
FN: Era Arnaboldi. Adesso tant’è che c’è ancora, adesso c’è il ricovero intestato ad Arnaboldi poi quando poi è morto anche il figlio andava a cavallo non so è morto, allora il paese hann cominciato a venderlo, casa per casa, l’han venduto tutto però Arnaboldi era, conte Arnaboldi, capitava.
CI: Era una potenza.
FN: Era una potenza allora, quel paese era così e tutti, tutti, tutti lavoravano nella proprietà di questo conte. Quello di Campospinoso Albaredo che poi adesso si è allargato ma il paese era tutto su una striscia [unclear], tutti, tutti, tutti lavoravano per questo conte, la terra. E poi aveva ogni famiglia c’era la raccolta del baco da seta, ogni famiglia aveva la sua stanza del baco da seta e il conte Arnaboldi, il bozzolo così bisognava consegnarli tutti a questo conte, venivano pagato un tot ma non so era così, però era conte Arnaboldi quel paese lì, lo sapevi, lo sai adesso.
FA: Va bene. Allora la, la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
FN: No, io, non so, adesso, quello, io ho raccontato quello che mi è venuto in mente.
CI: Fuori programma.
FN: Fuori programma.
CI: Una cosa che ricordo bene di te quando eravamo là agli Artigianelli, tu sei arrivato che eri già, avevi già quattordici anni o che, io
FN: Eh sì, perché, sì, sì.
CI: Noi lì eravamo, beh
FN: Avevo finito
CI: Un collegio da preti, no, quindi c’era un certo comportamento e lui l’è rivà e l’ canteva, s’è scincà la pel del cul, Donna Vughere, Donna Vughere, s’è scincà la pel del cul, Donna Vughere fala giustà.
FN: Ero, no, io.
CI: [laughs] Te lo ricordi te?
FN: Sì. Eh, io ero ragazzino. Lo dico adesso.
CI: Era un po’ differente da tutti gli altri. Lui era venuto, gli altri sono venuti in un età un po’ meno, dopo la quinta elementare ma lui è arrivato già, sui quattordici anni, quindici, era, poi aveva subito una vita un po’ disastrosa via, cioè, era euforico, teneva allegro un po’ tutti eh, era un po’ un punto d’appoggi, da esterno diciamo, diceva delle cose che gli altri non si permettevano di dire ma lui.
FN: Ma no, è perché io, io ho avuto anche quella fortuna lì, nonostante tutto, io sono sempre stato un ragazzo buono, cioè bravo, buono ecco più che altro, mai cattivo.
CI: Sì, di animo buono.
FN: Ecco, animo buono. Però sono sempre stato uno, un tipo allegro e ne inventavo di tutti i colori. Per esempio io quando sono entrato negli Artigianelli, ero, sempre stato anche attivo, no, non so se c’entra con la guerra, però io.
CI: No, ma hai spento?
FN: E’ spento.
CI: Spento.
FN: Io però adesso tanto per andare dentro un po’ in tutto nel, quando sono venuto negli Artigianelli io sono sempre stato un tipo in movimento, non stavo fermo no e ho sempre organizzato tante cose, tant’è che poi è quello che ho raccontato adesso, devo avere anche delle fotografie lì. Tant’è che avevo preso anche una certa carica negli scout, no, hai presente che ci sei anche tu negli scout.
CI: Sì, sì negli scout eravamo.
FN: E nell’Azione Cattolica. E mi avevano messo anche, mi avevano dato degli incarichi di responsabilità. E allora nelle mie.
CI: Eri capogruppo te.
FN: Sì. E allora io organizzavo e avevo organizzato una gita in barca, che è quando è annegato [pauses] un ragazzo. Insomma, io ho, poi dopo sono andato, ho imparato, sono diventato insegnante, ho diretto un grande stabilimento ma organizzavo sempre le gite io, nelle scuole soprattutto.
CI: Aveva sempre la macchina fotografica a tracolla.
FN: Sì, io c’avevo sempre.
CI: Appassionato di macchine.
FN: Quello ormai è diventata vecchia, me la son messa qui quando.
FA: Quando è entrato nell’Azione Cattolica?
CI: No, beh, era una cosa particolare interna, ero, io ero l’unico che ero nelle, però per essere boy scout bisognava essere anche nell’azione cattolico. Io ero l’unico, ero un boy scout ma non ero iscritto all’azione cattolica.
FN: Sì, ma prima c’era l’Azione Cattolica dentro, l’Azione Cattolica era come c’era a Pavia, era un’associazione.
CI: Sì, era negli oratori no.
FN: Era un’associazione.
CI: E lì era radicata come internamente.
FN: Sì, come era negli oratori, insomma giovanotti così no, tant’è che quando siamo andati a Roma ho preso tante di quelle botte ma le ho date anche mi è, perché avevo in mano una statua di San Pietro, eh!
FA: Ma chi è che l’ha picchiata?
FN: I compagni, è per quello che poi non, i compagni mi sono sempre andati giù per traverso, no. Vabbè. Giravo per Pavia con un coltello perché c’erano i compagni, perché loro era il momento, vestiti da Boy Scout, sti uomini anche di una certa età che ti prendevano in giro, ma mica venivano vicino a me però. Gli altri scappavano ma vicino a me non ci venivano. A Roma tutti, se ti ricordi il nome perché, l’organizzazione , a Roma c’è stato, era l’organizzazione organizzato da Carlo Carretto, i baschi verdi.
CI: Carlo Carretto era il presidente dell’Azione Cattolica italiana.
FN: I baschi verdi, i giovanotti edell’Azione Cattolica li chiamavano i baschi verdi, a Roma tutti coi baschi verdi, no, che erano allora più di cinquecentomila. E noi andavamo a dormire con gli Artigianelli, col Vergari andavamo a dormire un po’ fuori Roma. C’era un capannone, c’erano delle suore lì e facendo la strada, vero, perché i compagni in quel, quando c’è stato l’incontro con il Papa, avevano paura di tutto questo baccano di questo giovanotti, allora avevano dato ordine di, tutti, di rifugiarsi loro nelle loro sedi. Senonché c’è stato un errore che quando è venuto, veniva oramai il discorso del Papa, tutti questi giovanotti se ne tornavano nei loro posti dove dovevano andare a dormire e nello stesso tempo i compagni avevano la libera uscita per uscire dalle loro sedi e ci sono stati gli scontri, ecco, e allora, il mio gruppo, vero, che poi posso farti i nomi, Barbierato, tutti quei, tu li conosci, li hai conosciuti no, eravamo tutti insieme e andavamo giù verso il [unclear] e nello stesso tempo veniva su un gruppo di uomini, maturi anche uomini maturi e lì c’è stato uno scontro, [unclear], cioè ma quelli là, noi l’avevamo presa così andavamo giù tranquilli, quelli là hanno cominciato a dare botte e tutti sti ragazzi, compagni, amici, scappare a destra e a sinistra, io sono rimasto da solo con quella statua lì, ho preso tanti di quei calci, ma ne ho dati via dove potevo e alcuni li ho feriti anche seriamente e nello stesso tempo, neanche a farlo apposta, è venuto fuori un temporale. Nello stesso tempo hanno fatto, facevano, si sono messi a fare i fuochi artificiali. Tra temporale, tuoni e fuochi artificiali è venuto fuori un bordello, hanno chiamato la croce verde, eh caro mio, non c’era mica tanto da scherzare eh, ecco. Comunque tutte le gite che io ho fatto, ho sempre avuto dei morti.
FA: E chi c’era come Papa?
FN: Pio XII.
CI: Pio XII.
FN: Era Pio, sì, Pio XII.
CI: Pio XII. Papa Pacelli.
FN: Papa Pacelli deve essere.
FA: E che anno? Più o meno?
FN: ’48, o no? ’48.
CI: ’60?
FN: No, che ’60. ’48.
CI: ’48.
FA: Va bene.
FN: No, no, no.
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Interview with Franco Nocchieri
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Franco Nocchieri recalls his early years as an orphan in several different towns in the Province of Pavia. He describes the bombing of the Voghera railway station, which started while he was heading to school. He goes on to explain how he and his schoolmates used to cheer during air-raids, as they were free to skip school and play. He recounts his experience as live-in delivery boy at his stepfather’s tavern at Albaredo Arnaboldi, a vantage point from which he witnessed the daily attempts to destroy the Ponte della Becca, a bridge across the Po river. Franco describes his memories of ‘Pippo’, which he tried to watch every night, and mentions it dropping explosive devices disguised as fountain pens and toys. He describes the difficult coexistence between the local population and Axis troops, stressing the brutality of fascist militiamen. He also describes the fearsome reputation of a prison in the nearby town of Broni, known as ‘Villa Triste’, where many people disappeared. He remarks on his fearless attitude, except while listening to Radio Londra, which was a criminal offence at the time. Franco comments on the food shortages of the time and describes how the poor resorted to eating cats, which were considered to be a substitute for rabbit. He also recounts several wartime events, including: a narrow escape from the Ponte della Becca bombing; widespread fear inspired by so-called ‘Mongols’ (which were part of a German foreign division); a public execution; a friend killed by a bomb believed to have been dropped by ‘Pippo’; the strafing of a funeral procession, and the sight of Felice Fiorentini, a war criminal dubbed 'The Beast', being paraded in and around the province in a cage after the end of the war. He also mentions various stories from his time as a member of the Azione Cattolica Italiana, a Roman Catholic lay association.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Broni
Italy--Voghera
Italy--Pavia
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2017-02-02
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01:05:47 audio recording
Language
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ita
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ANocchieriF170202
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/8/16/PPfeiferKW1601.2.jpg
0450b59d1d85189add452a3dedb38f49
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/8/16/APfeiferKW160627.1.mp3
c26ca3cc75b7c84732e467d5dd9a806b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Pfeifer, Charly
Charly Pfeifer
C Pfeifer
Karl W Pfeifer
Description
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One interview with Karl Wilhelm Pfeifer (b. 1941), a schoolboy in Betzdorf an der Sieg during the war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pfeifer, KW
Date
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2016-06-27
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PS: Lieber Charly,
CP: We can talk English, if you like to.
PS: Nein, es ist besser auf Deutsch. Können Sie mir erstmal ganz einfach ein bisschen von Ihrer Jugend erzählen. Die ersten Erinnerungen die Sie haben.
CP: Ja, die hängen natürlich zusammen mit den Zweiten Weltkrieg, weil, das ja außergewöhnlich, Krieg ist immer außergewöhnliche Situation, und da ich in der Nähe einer Stadt wohnte, in der zum Beispeil, sehr viel militärischer Nachschub über die Eisenbahn verschoben wurde, gleichzeitig gab es dort eine Fabrik für Lokomotiven und Industrie für Reparatur von Lokomotiven undsoweiter. Weil alles was in der Nähe im Krieg zerschossen wurde, wurde dort repariert. Also waren die Alliierten daran interessiert, diese Werke und die Eisenbahn, den Eisenbahnknotenpunkt stillzulegen durch air raids, was sie dann auch gemacht haben. Und ich kann mich dann als Kind in soweit daran erinnern, denn Bombenabwürfe sind ja nun nicht uberhörbar. Dann war es so, das abends und nachts, wenn die Alarmsirenen gingen, wir natürlich aus dem Bett mussten. Meine Mutter, mein Vater hatten schon immer einen gepackten Koffer da stehen. Und dann sind wir los in, entweder einen Bunker, das war aber kein Bunker der extra errichtet wurde, sondern das war ein Stollen von einer ehemaligen Mangangrube, oder aber wir sind, war auch wir bei also in einen Eisenbahntunnel dann nachts. Und… [dog barking] Dann ist klar das nach Bombenangriffen die Stadt dann brannte und ich kann mich erinnern dass meine Mutter mich auf den Arm nahm, weil ich alleine nicht so aus dem Fenster gucken konnte, schauen konnte, und ich dann gedacht habe das die Sonne rot scheint weil der Himmel rot war, aber in Wirklichkeit war das ja nur der Wiederschein des Feuers aus der Stadt.
Speziel kann ich mich erinnern an den Winter 1944-45, wenn wir Kinder spät nachmittags draußen gespielt haben, und es war blauer Himmel, dann konnten wir die Abschüsse der V2 Raketen sehen, weil in unserer Nähe, war nur ein Paar Kilometer weg von uns, war eine Abschussstation für V2 Raketen und im abendblauen Himmel konnte man schön sehen den Kondenstreifen der Rakete und wenn Brennschluss war, sah man nur noch in der Abendsonne den hellen Punkt weiterfliegen. Die wurden damals aber schon nicht mehr in Richtung England geschossen, sondern Richtung Belgien und Holland, weil sich in dem Bereich die Alliierten schon befanden, nach der Normandie. Und das war natürlich für uns Kinder interessant, weil logischerweise wir das ja nicht so als Krieg empfunden haben, weil wir ja nicht direkt da involved, also beteiligt waren, sondern mehr als, ja eine Art von besonderer Ablenkung aus dem Tagesgeschehen heraus. Und wir sind dann, dass weiss ich noch, 1945, sind wir dann von Zuhause weg, weil so viel gebombt wurde, und sind das, aber nicht allzu weit weg, sind wir in so‘n Dorf gezogen, was für Bombardements kein Interesse war, wo also nichts war, keine Industrien und nichts. Da wo ich zum Anfang wohnte war natürlich viel Industrie und dran war man ja interessiert. Und das direkte Ruhrgebiet, das war ja auch nur 80-90 km weg von mir, damals, so dass wir das alles also mitgekriegt haben. Wo ich mich noch dran erinnern kann war dass, sehr oft, abends, wenn‘s dunkel wurde, dunkel war, wir, ein einzelnes Flugzeug kam, wir nannten ihn den eisernen Gustaf und der machte aber nichts anderes, das war der Pfadfinder, der vor wegflog, und dann die sogenannten, wir sagten Christbaüme, Weinachtsbaüme, gesetzt hat, das war also, sah aus wie ein Riesending mit Leuchtkugeln, das also die ganze Gegend erhelte, und das war wie wir, wie ich dann später erfuhr, als ich älter war, dass das kein Schauspiel war, sondern dass das die Zielmarkierung für die Bomber war. Und auch als Kind haben wir natürlich nicht gewusst, sind das nun Englische Bomber, sind das Amerikanische Bomber oder, für uns waren das einfach nur Bomber.
Nachwirkungen von all diesen Dingen, nach den Krieg, als ich dann selber einigermaßen unterwegs war, also selbststandig war. Wir haben sehr viel aus der Natur gelebt damals, das hieß, wir gingen im Herbst, auch Pilze sammeln undsoweiter, und da haben wir zum Beispiel massenhaft nicht explodierte Brandbomben gefunden, Stabbrandbomben, das waren Fehlwürfe, die also die Stadt nicht erreicht haben, sondern in einem Waldgebiet runtergegangen sind. Das könnte ich Ihnen hier auch, ich habe extra deshalb hier Google Earth angeschmissen. Ich kann Ihnen das mal zeigen wo das war. Ok?
PS: Ach ja, können Sie mir sagen wo Sie eben gelebt haben?
CP: Betzdorf an der Sieg, das ist 90 km nordöstlich von Köln. Köln ist für jeden ‚n Begriff. Da bin ich geboren, aufgewachsen und ich bin 1961 erst nach Jever gekommen hier, durch die Luftwaffe. Sonst habe ich da unten gelebt, in dieser Gegend, dicht, dicht zum Ruhrgebiet. Das ist, was ich Ihnen jetzt erzählt hab, ist alles nichts von Jever hier. Jever war nichts los hier. Die Bomben, das weiß ich von Bekannten, die Bomben die hier gefallen sind, waren alles Notwürfe, dass heißt die sie in Bremen nicht so wie Wellington, die sie in Bremen nicht losgeworden sind wegen Wetter, oder Wilhelmshafen vorbeigeworfen haben die hier, aber meistens im Land hier und wo nichts passiert ist. Aber wie gesagt, zu meiner Zeit, da unten ist sehr viel bombardiert worden, weil ja auch alle Flugzeuge, die Bomber, auch in der Nacht, wenn die zum Ruhrgebiet flogen, flogen die immer über uns weg. Weil wir, halt, aus der Luft betrachtet waren wir direkt vor der Haustür, wenn man so will. Denn aus der Luft betrachtet sind ja 80-100 km keine Entfernung. So, und [pauses] ich weiß allerdings, also eben nicht mein Erleben, das weiß ich auch aus der Erzählung meiner Tante, die dort nach wie vor, als wir mal kurzfristig weggezogen waren wegen der Bombenwürfe, die ist dort geblieben und die hat auch erlebt, wie dann die Amerikaner eingerückt sind dort und wo also gegenüber auf den anderen Hügel noch Deutsche lagen und die sich dann gegenseitig da beschossen haben. Hat’s auch noch ein Paar Tote gegeben, liegen noch drei und auch ein Amerikanischer Leutnant liegt noch bei uns in meiner Heimat noch auf den Friedhof heutzutage. Und das ist aber alles relativ schnell gegangen da denn das waren die letzten Kriegstage wo also, die Alliierten rückten vor und die Deutschen rückten nur immer weiter weg. Das war also nicht mehr weiter viel, wiegesagt. Nach dem Kriege dann [waren] wir als Kinder natürlich sehr interessiert an allem. Wir sind also überall hingelaufen, wo abgeschossene Panzer lagen, wo abgeschossene Flugzeuge lagen, weil das für uns Kinder interessant war sowas. Da sind natürlich überall hinmarschiert. In der vicinity, also in der Nähe da wo wir hinlaufen konnten. Und da gab es für uns natürlich einiges zu sehen, für uns Kinder, wir waren ja neugierig, wie, wo, was ist da. Ja, ich bin auch in dieser Gegend zur Schule gegangen. Bin dann nach der Schule, wie in Deutschland üblich, habe ich ‚ne Lehre gemacht und am Ende dieser Lehrzeit von dreienhalb Jahren bin ich dann zur Luftwaffe gegangen. Und hab dann so die Standardausbildung gemacht bei der Luftwaffe, Flugzeugführerschein, Fluglehrerlehrgang, irgendwann Offiziersschule und also was hier, und hab auch sehr viel Ausbildung in America gemacht, war also sehr oft in Amerika drüben, und bin dann 1993 hier in Jever Airbase auch pensioniert worden. Habe mich aber trotzdem immer weiter mit der Luftwaffe beschäftigt. Der Fliegerhorst Jever hier ist so mein zweites Zuhause. Und so ist das auch gekommen, nachdem ich die ersten Verbindungen mit Jack Waterfall hatte, das ich dann diese Geschichten wieder intensiviert hatte. Ich wusste zwar sehr lange schon, ich wusste, seit Anfang der Sechziger Jahre wusste ich, wo die Wellington abgestürtzt war, weil ich kannte den Förster, den Vor-Vorgänger von Carsten Streufert, den kannte ich auch gut, der hat mir das mal eines Tages gezeigt und damals, 1960, war das ja gerade zehn jahre, zwanzig Jahre her und die Baüme waren dann noch nicht so wie sie dann heute sind, das war alles noch gut sichtbar. Und wir haben dann damals auch schon Einzelteile gesammelt die man so noch oberflächlich fand weil wir in den Neunzehnhundertsechziger Jahren noch nicht die, oder überhaupt, wir hatten überhaupt keinen Metalldetector, oder wie wir sagen Minensuchgerät. Heute haben wir natürlich, ich auch, das modernste Gerät. Wenn ich heute da langgehe, piept es an allen Ecken und Kanten, weil immer noch Blechstücke, Munitionen und allesmögliche im Boden leigt. Denn die damalige Luftwaffe im Dritten Reich hat ja nur oberflächlich abgeraümt, die Grossteile die da rumlagen. Alles andere da hat keiner gesucht, was da an Kleinzeug rumliegt. Und deshalb findet da man das heute noch. Und Ich bin mir sicher, da will ich zunächst auch mal hin, dass man an anderen Stellen auch noch genügend findet. Denn südlich vom Flugplatz, die Wellington die ist ja runtergegangen im Upjeeverschen Forst. Noch weiter südlich sind auch welche abgeschossen worden und um die Stellen denke ich hat sich heute noch gar niemand gekümmert. Es ist auch in Deutschland ein bisschen kompliziert weil man, weil offiziell brauche ich ja jedesmal die Genehmiegung vom Landeigentümer, das ich da überhaupt hin gehen darf und normalerwiese müsste ich noch eine Polizeiliche Genemiegung haben, weil ja immer die Gefahr besteht, Munition zu finden und ähnliches. Die brauche ich aber nicht, weil ich Gottseidank Munitionsfachmann bin durch die Luftwaffe und Sprenglizenzen habe und Feuerwehrlizenz, so das ich das eigen verantwortlich machen kann. Aber am sonsten ist das immer mit Schwierigkeiten verbunden, weil viele Landeigentümer sagen nein sie wollen das nicht, das man auf ihrem Land keine Löcher gräbt zum Beispiel. Ja, [pauses] zum Krieg fallt mir natürlich jetzt im Moment so gar nichts mehr ein.
PS: Sie deuteten vorher… Sie haben mir vorher die Bilder gezeigt von der Gegend um Betzdorf und den anderen Ort. Können sie mir das moment noch einmal wieder ein bisschen erzählen, der Ort wo Sie Pilze…
CP: Ich bin aufgewachsen in einem Ort, der heißt Scheuerfeld. Da haben wir letztens erst 1100 Jahre Bestehen gefeiert. Das ist eigentlich ein ganz besonderer Ort. Das war zu der Zeit da unten als ich geboren wurde noch Gebiet der Freien Männer, so nannte man das, änhlich wie hier in Ostfriesland, deshalb heißen die Ostfriesen ja auch die freien Ostfriesen. Und dieser Ort liegt ungefähr zwei Km von der Stadt Betzdorf weg. So dass das letztendlich, wenn ich das aus der Luft betrachte, eine Einheit ist das ganze. [pauses] Ja wie gesagt, da bin ich halt geboren, aufgewachsen und habe das halt erlebt was ich vorhin nun berichtet habe, aus der Kriegszeit, genau in dieser Gegend da.
PS: Sie hatten mir da auch erzählt warum….. Sie hatten da eben etwas von Scheuerfeld und Betzdorf erzählt in Verbindung mit den Bombardierungen.
CP: Ja, genau. Weil in Betzdorf diese Werke waren, Eismann Ausbesserungswerk, Lokomotivenfabrik, also wo Lokomotiven gebaut wurden, und viele, viel Gerät der Bahn, der Eisenbahn war ja zum Teil nach Bombenangriffen nicht mehr zu reparieren also musste man ja auch noch neue Lokomotiven bauen. Und in Betzdorf war ein grosser Rangierbahnhof, wo also Waren, Kriegsmaterial zu Zügen zusammengestellt wurde, die dann halt irgendwohinn an die Front fuhren, und auch mit Kanonen drauf, Panzer, Munitionen, was weiss ich, und deshalb war Betzdorf für die Alliierten vom Interesse, logischerweise Nachschub abschneiden und halt verhindern das noch, durch Bombardierungen, das noch Lokomotiven gebaut or repariert wurden, undsoweiter. Das war ein Hauptgrund warum dort viel bombardiert wurde.
PS: Sind Sie noch in… haben Sie noch Familie in Betzdorf? Und Scheuerfeld?
CP: Nein, nur Bekannte. Schulfreunde. Meine Familie, meine Eltern sind tot und meine Geschwister wohnen überall nur nicht mehr da. Da wohnen nur noch Freunde, Bekannte, keine, keine Verwandtschaft von mir mehr. Wobei ich, wobei muss ich sagen, ich komme ein Mal im Jahr komme ich dorthin. Ich besuch also, einmal im Jahr besuche ich mein Schulfreund da unten. Ich bin ja auch, wie Sie sehen, Jägersman und mein Schulfreund hat auch ein Jagdgebiet da unten und da fahre ich einmal im Jahr zur Jagd da runter und frische die Jugenderinnerungen auf.
Zum Beispiel, habe ich, ich erzählte ja vorhin das wir im Winter da gesehen haben wenn die V2 flog. Da bin ich inzwischen mal gewesen, wo die abgeschossen wurde und das waren ja zum Teil ganz einfache Abschussgebiete. Da hat man einfach mitten im Wald irgendwo ‚ne Betonplatte gegossen, mehr war das nicht, und der Rest war ja alles in LKWs, die dann drumrum im Wald gut getarnt standen und da bin ich zum Beispiel hin gewesen, ein Ort der heißt Bad Marienberg und dort habe ich dann im Wald auch noch so eine Platte, so ne Abschussrampe, so ‚ne Platte gefunden. Das war Bad Marienberg und eine andere Abschusstellung, die war nicht weit davon, die hieß Hachenburg.
PS: Und das waren die V2.
CP: Ja, das war V2. Das wird auch gut beschrieben in einem Buch, das da heißt “Kriegsschauplatz Westerwald”. Da kommt das drin vor und dann gibt‘s aus dieser Gegend noch ein Buch, das hieß, ich erklär das gleich, “Gefrorene Blitze”. Das stammt aus den Volksmund, das heißt, das haben die Leute so gesagt, wenn die V2 ab einer bestimmten Höhe zog die auch Kondensstreifen und genauso wie bei jetzt von den Jets wenn der Kondenstreifen anfangt zu zerfallen, irgendwann zerfiel der natürlich auch und weil der eine Zeitlang da war und sah aus wie ein Blitz, haben die Leute auf den Land das “Gefrorene Blitze” genannt. Und so heißt auch das Buch. “Gefrorene Blitze” behandelt die V2 Stationen im Westerwald. Und das ist ja direkt an meiner Heimat. Ich bin zwar Rheinland-Pfälzer aber der Westerwald grenzte direkt an meiner Heimat dran.
PS: Hat der Freund den Sie hin und wieder besuchen noch Erinnerungen? Haben Sie je noch darüber gesprochen?
CP: Ja, wir haben vorwiegend nur über Nachkriegsdinge gesprochen. Zum Beispiel, wenn wir im Wald waren und Brandbomben eingesammelt haben und sowas. Aber ob er direkt noch aus den letzten Kriegsjahr oder so noch was weiß, oder das letzte Halbjahr, sagen wir mal 1945 Januar bis Mai, das weiß ich nicht, da musste ich ihn ja fragen, weil wir uns weniger darüber unterhalten haben.
PS: Ich weiss jetzt nicht ob ich das aufgenommen haben. Können Sie mir vielleicht noch Moment von dieser Erfahrung mit den Brandbomben erzählen?
CP: Ja, Wie gesagt, Die Brandbomben steckten, das waren die Sechskantstabe, so lang, die stachen einfach den Waldboden, weil sie nicht explodiert waren. Und wenn wir Kinder im Wald waren zu Pilze suchen oder sonst, haben wir die natürlich gefunden. Und neugierig wie wir waren haben wir natürlich auch welche mitgenommen. Weil das war so. Wir haben in diesen Dingern gar keine Gefahr gesehen, weil diese Sachen alle bei uns in der Schule sehr genau beschrieben waren. In der Schule auf den Fluren überall hingen Plakate, „Hände weg von Fundmunition“, und da waren die einzelnen Sachen, die man finden konnte, waren da alle beschrieben und da waren zum Beispeil die Brandbomben auch beschrieben. Und da ich mich zu der Zeit auch schon, was ich heute noch tue, für alle diese Dinge, Waffen und Kriegsmaterial und Sprengstoff und alles interessiere, habe ich also.. Also die Brandbomben da habe ich natürlich nicht mit vier Jahren gesucht, sonder das war in der Zeit wenn wir schon alleine in den Wald gingen um Pilze zu suchen, da war ich zehn, elf, zwölf Jahre alt. Und da hab ich mich also schon sehr für Munition und Sprengstoff und all sowas interessiert. Und das habe ich natürlich später beim Militär alles ausgebaut das ganze.
PS: Und wenn Sie jetzt zurückdenken an die Kriegszeit, gesehen von heute, welche Eindrücke haben Sie?
CP: Sagen wir mal so. Was störend war, war nachts aufzustehen und in den Bunker zu rennen. Am sonsten, für uns Kinder, war das eine interessante Zeit, weil immer was los war. Und dann, man sah Flugzeuge am Himmel und wusste natürlich als Kind noch nicht genau überhaupt nicht wer ist wer, man wusste nur “die mögen sich nicht” weil da geschossen wurde oben, das hörte man ja unten. Von daher war es seine erlebnisreiche, interessante Zeit. Wie gesagt, mal abgesehen vom Bunkerlaufen nachts und änhlichen. Und was natürlich gestört hat, uns Kinder, gegen Ende des Krieges, Kinder haben ja immer Hunger, und Essen war immer weniger gegen Ende des Krieges. Das hat also eine bischen gestört, dass man vom eigenen Magenknurren, nicht nur von der Sirene wach wurde nachts, sondern auch vom eigenen Magenknurren. Aber am sonsten was tagsüber war und was so geschah um uns drum rum, weil ja außer Bombardements direkt am Boden bei uns zu der Zeit keine Kriegshandlungen waren. War ja nix, das war ja alles in der Luft. Und deshalb war es für uns Kinder immer interessant. [pauses] Meine Schwester, das ist ein Phänomen, das müssten aber Psychologen klaren. Meine Schwester ist im März 1945 geboren, das heißt die war bei Kriegsende drei Monate alt. Und das war die Zeit wo also sehr viel Bombardement war, und sehr viel geschossen wurde in der Luft und und und. Was ich später erlebt habe war, da habe ich mich immer gefragt, wie kann das sein. Wenn wir beim Essen sassen, und es kam in der Küche nur eine Fliege angeflogen, da ist meine Schwester vom Stuhl gesprungen und hat sich unterm Tisch versteckt. Obwohl sie das ja eigentlich gar nicht, sie war drei monate alt als das alles passierte. In wieweit man das ganze Getöse im Mutterleib schon mitkriegt weiss ich nicht. Ich sag dass ist ein Fall für irgendein Psychologen, rausszufinden wie sowas kam. Aber meine Schwester brauchte nur eine Fliege sehen die ankommt, irgendwas was in der Luft fliegt, war die verschwunden, weg.
PS: Jetzt wo Sie seit einigen Jahren die Beziehungen, gute Beziehungen zu den Briten haben, wie sehen Sie das ein bisschen alles, ich meine die Bombenkampagne und, ja?
CP: Ja sagen wir mal so. Nicht nur die Engländer und Amerikaner haben gebombt, wir haben auch gebombt. Also beruhte auf Gegenseitigkeit. Deshalb bin ich auf niemandem gram. Und dann, habe ich auch heute den Standtpunkt dass die Welt noch wesentlich besser sein könnte, wenn wir keine Politiker hatten. Denn sehr viele Politiker sind ja Schuld an manch einem Desaster. Und wie man ja jetzt auch sieht in unseren Beziehungen mit den Verwandten der ehemaligen Besatzung und und und, Leute unter sich vertragen sich in der Regel immer gut. Das ist überhaupt kein Thema und ich hätte auch keinen Groll gegen irgendjemandem, was weil das ist halt Krieg. Da fürt nicht nur einer Krieg, sondern da führt auch der andere Krieg. Und da muss man halt rechnen, damit rechnen dass es da Tote und Verletzte gibt, und und und. Nur also ich stehe dem ganzen, und das war auch in der Zeit wo ich in Amerika war, eigentlich positiv gegenüber, weil ich mir sage, die Leute unter sich vertragen sich in der Regel immer gut. Irgendwelche die dann, da gibt es ja ein spezieles Wort für in Deutschland, Scharfmacher, Leute die also solange hetzen, aufhetzen bis der nächste meint er muss mal zum Gewehr greifen. Also ich will das was wir hier machen und deshalb wollen wir das auch für die Zukunft weiter aufrechterhalten. Da bin ich auch mit Jack einig, wir können uns naturlich, alleine schon aus Kostengründen, nicht jedes Jahr treffen hier. Aber wir werden das ganze am Leben erhalten und vielleicht haben ich ja noch die Gelegenheit, wenn meine Gesundheit mir keinen Strich durch die Rechnung macht, noch irgenwelche anderen Absturtzstellen zu erkunden hier und vielleicht noch Kontakt zu anderen Leuten bekommen in England. Denn die Zeit drängt ja. Wir als Zeitzeugen sterben aus und die Englischen Zeitzeugen sterben genauso aus, so dass man irgendwann keinen mehr hat mit dem man über diese Dinge reden kann, den man, weil halt niemand mehr da ist. [pauses] Und Ich habe leider, leider auch in meiner Heimat da unten, wie gesagt, ausser mein Schulkameraden, auch niemanden mehr der so alt ist, dass er mir berichten könnte, den der müsste ja so wie Heino, 94 sein. Und, Ja und ich selber bin auch 75 und viele von meinen Bekannten da unten leben schon gar nicht mehr. Mein Schulfreund, auch 75, Paar noch drum rum, aber es gibt natürlich auch welche die sich im ganzen Leben für sowas gar nicht interessiert haben, die wissen auch nix zu erzählen weil sie das nicht interessiert hat. Und wir wie gesagt, wir haben früher, als Kinder, alles was mit Militär zu tun hatte, was wir gefunden haben im Wald, haben wir mitgenommen, haben wir gesammelt, zum Leidwesen meiner Eltern, den die mochten ja auch keinen Sprengstoff und keine Bomben im Haus haben. Aber ich hatte, wie das früher auch im Land so war, wir hatten neben dem Haus ein Hühnerstall, und änhliches, da immer alles versteckt. Aber wie gesagt, kenne ich leider niemandem da unten der also älter ist und der sagen könnte “Ja, ich habe noch das und das erlebt”.
PS: Wissen Sie von mehreren anderen Absturtzstellen hier in der Gegend?
CP: Ja es müssen noch zwei in der Nähe vom Ems-Jade-Kanal liegen und im Bereich Wilhelmshaven müssen noch welche sein, wo ich aber nicht auf‘m Meter genau kenne, wäre aber herauszufinden.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Charly Pfeifer
Creator
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Peter Schulze
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Charly Pfeifer recounts his experiences of the bombing of Betzdorf an der Sieg, a small town not far from the Ruhr. He explains the strategic importance of the city, due to the presence of locomotive works. He recounts taking shelter from the bombs in a former manganese mine. He remembers the time as a child, when he used to go into the forest looking for mushrooms and finding incendiary devices. He tells that he wasn’t afraid of these objects because at school there were posters with detailed descriptions of the ordnance. He happened to find V-2 ramps hidden in the forest. He explains how it was a very interesting time for children because there was always something happening. The most annoying aspect, he remarks, was being woken up, not only by the air alarm, but also by the rumbling of his own tummy. He recounts seeing Pathfinder aircraft, which they as children used to call 'The Iron Gustav' and when it dropped the target indicators, which they called 'Christmas trees'. He tells about his sister’s weird and unexplainable behaviour. Although she was only three months old at the time of end of the war, later on whenever there was a fly coming into the kitchen, she jumped down from her chair and quickly hid under the table.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-27
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Language
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deu
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Betzdorf
Germany
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:35:31 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APfeiferKW160627
Coverage
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Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
incendiary device
Pathfinders
target indicator
V-2
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/126/20/ACarterRH150629.1.mp3
8d3dc3e95f435d5e1448963ba9a2e5f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Carter, Robert Haywood
Bob Carter
Robert Carter
Robert Haywood Carter
Robert H Carter
R H Carter
R Carter
Description
An account of the resource
16 items. The collection contains an oral interview covering childhood and wartime experiences of Robert Haywood "Bob" Carter who was a farm labourer and auxiliary fireman during the war living close to RAF Dunholme Lodge. Documents including identity cards and clothing ration books for Robert Carter and Eva A Haire as well as a victory message from the King and prisoner of war camp money vouchers; newspaper article about an airman reunited with his wife after being a prisoner of war, Photographs of home guard and auxiliary fire service personnel in Welton and Dunholme.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bob Carter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-29
Identifier
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Carter, RH
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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[Before the interview commences there is some preliminary chatter; not transcribed]
DE: Right. So, this is an interview with Bob Carter. My name is Dan Ellin. This is for the Bomber Command Digital Archive and we’re actually at Lincoln University. So Bob could you tell me a little bit about your childhood for a start please?
RC: Well I was, actually, I was born at Scampton, just on the Tillbridge Lane in a farm cottage there. But I don’t remember it because in those days seventy percent of village workers, men, worked, um, on the farm. A few came in to work in the factories in Lincoln but it was so labour intensive in those days on the farm and horses of course and um, so the men moved around mostly, very often for another sixpence a week. They’d moved to another place. And this is what happened I think in my life. I was born at Scampton there and we went then to Ingleby which is near Saxilby. I do just remember a little thing happening there actually with, our neighbour had geese and I found a goose egg and I thought I was doing a good thing and was taking this goose egg in to this woman and she sort of screamed at me when she saw me. I didn’t know that the goose, the geese, were actually sitting on these eggs to produce young ones [laughs], others and I dropped the thing because I was trying to shut this big farm gate with one hand and I suppose I’d only be about three years old. Anyway, we moved from there to Scothern. And then Scothern we moved to Welton. And I was five. In that time I was only five and done all those moves and I started school at Welton when I was five years old. So I was there. And then at twelve of course, at twelve years old the war started. And do you want me just to carry on?
DE: Yeah, yeah definitely, yeah.
RC: That was to us kids I suppose which would be wrong we would be all excited because this war was going to start until we, it grew on us that it was something more serious. But they were starting to rebuild Scampton at the time. I think it was about 1936 or somewhere there. Scampton was being rebuilt so we got used to seeing a bit of activity up there. But as, as the war went on then Dunholme Lodge, all these other airfields in Lincolnshire, Dunholme Lodge was made. And I’d, I’d left school, and went to, at fourteen I left school and went to work at Scothern Dairies for the harvest time of that year ‘cause I left at the Easter and then I moved to a, a farm halfway up Welton Cliff Road. Their name was Carter but no relation to me and then he asked me to go to his son’s at Faldingworth and he said he wants a tractor driver and so I went to, from Welton I used to cycle every day to Faldingworth and driving this tractor. And of course I wasn’t old enough to do that really but Jack the boss, he used to give me, if I had to come to Welton to borrow one of their machines, rolls and different things, he used to give me his trilby to wear so the policemen might think it was him on the, on the tractor. It never, it never dawned on me that’s why he was doing it at the time but as the years went by I realised and I never got stopped anyway.
So, but I had a year to - before I went there I was working on the farm up on Welton Cliff there and of course it’s horses was the main thing. In those days farms were known by how many horses. It would be a six horse farm or a ten horse farm or that sort of thing. Tractors were just coming in. They had a couple of tractors but I had to work and when the potatoes were being lifted I had to drive the carts up and down the fields to the pickers and I was only of course about fifteen then. And I had to yoke these horses out in a morning and some of them were quite tall and one, a mare, she was very awkward because when she saw me coming with her collar she would hold her head right high up and there was me trying to reach her so I thought, “Oh I’ll beat you to that. I’ll get in the manger at the front and then I’ll be able to reach.” So I threw this collar into the manger and I clambered in to it, into the manger, and yes, it did happen, as you might be thinking, yes, the mare backed off away from me and I couldn’t reach her then. But it only happened once and I never forgot that incident but I used to have six to do in the morning, six horses to yoke up and get them to the fields up as far as Scampton to the A15 there. His land went all that way and I was involved in that, then I got helping the shepherd in the winter time with some sheep out on a turnip field in all weathers. We just had to get these turnips up and cut up and feed, feed the sheep and um, eventually I had a chance to go to Dunholme Lodge Farm to White’s Dunholme Lodge Farm.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And I, so I moved employment and went to Dunholme Lodge Farm. I stayed there right on, right through the wartime. So and in this time they’d bought, they made the land at Dunholme Lodge into an airfield. And I lived on the road from Welton to Scampton so looking out our, our front room we looked straight up the runway of Dunholme Lodge. You could see, in the far distance you could see Lincoln Cathedral.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And all that and so we were seeing things first hand really and the, all the administration offices were all on the outskirts of the farm, on Dunholme Lodge Farm, so we saw quite a lot going on there in the daytime.
DE: Do you know how the farmer felt about losing some of his land to the airfield?
RC: No ‘cause it happened when I went there so I don’t know. I was, I was thinking about that only the other day. They must have took about half of his land.
DE: Ahum.
RC: That he had. When I think what he had was down towards Dunholme and then we got the land back after the war. But they must have taken half of his land. Yeah.
DE: So you’re saying you were living at the end of the runway there. Can you, any, any stories you can, you can tell?
RC: Yes. We, we were supplied with a metal table in, in our kitchen because we were within, I think it was eight hundred yards of the perimeter of Dunholme Lodge. So we were allowed to have a better shelter, bomb shelter.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Which was very handy until you’d knock your knees against it [laughs]. Being steel it didn’t give up, give way at all. But eventually they asked if we would give it up. They wanted to send them to London because London was getting all the bombing and so we did give it up eventually and went back to a wooden table.
But when they were taking off northwards they were coming almost straight for our house we were the last house up that road at the time. Today there’s quite a lot of houses gone beyond it now
DE: Ahum
RC: All at the back there as well. It was all fields and they were so low we used to wave to the pilot and the co-pilot, the flight engineer as they went past they were so low. We could see them.
And my mother used to take in, we had a spare bedroom. Eventually my mother used to take in the airman’s wives that had came to see their husband for a weekend or week or something like that. And she said, “I won’t take flyers in case anything happened“ but she eventually did and she took this couple in actually. Young couple, hadn’t been married long and they were from Ipswich and he was, he was in 44 squadron which was a Rhodesian squadron and the 44 was stationed there at one time and he was in - their lettering was KM and he was in S. S for Sugar. And she the, the briefing room used to be down near what is known now as William Farr School. Down there their briefing office and so she used to walk with him around with him there when he went for his briefing in the afternoon and then they’d be away at night. And I was in the local fire service and I had to do every fifth night. I had to do duty and one night I was going home next morning at 6 o’clock, had to get ready and go to work on the farm and I was watching them coming in and of course they were quite low. They were going, they were landing north to south in the morning and I saw KMB go past.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Quite plain to see because they were very low so you couldn’t miss it. Anyway when I got around the back the back of our house going in the back door Kath was looking out the bedroom window, his wife and I said, “Has he come in yet?” She said, “He’s just gone in.” and I said, “No that was B. That wasn’t S”. She said, “No it was S.” so I thought well I’m not arguing. I had a good plain view of it, broad view of it and so I left it at that.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Off I went to work at the farm. Then during the morning I had reason to go around into our barn at Dunholme Lodge for something and just over the fence was all the administration offices of the RAF and such like and I saw this officer with this woman. Be about, getting on for a hundred yards away from me I think and I thought oh that does look like Kath. Anyway we’d finished work at 12 o’clock on a Saturday so I went home 12 o’clock and I knew as soon as I walked in our back door there was something was wrong I thought. So I said to my mother what’s wrong. She said, “Frank’s hasn’t come back”. I said oh. She said, “No they’ve been and picked her up.” I said, “Oh I knew that was her.” I said I saw her from the farmyard. I said I thought that looks like Kath and they’d been and collected her and she stayed with us a little while after that and then we found out he’d been taken prisoner
And eventually it was getting, this was getting on late in the war of course and they escaped and got home again but they, they escaped into, into Russian lines ‘cause they came down to see us then after he’d got home again and they said they’d escaped into the Russian lines and that was worse than being with the Germans. They nearly got shot with the Russians, convincing them who they were. And one newspaper had it, the headline - Home By Way of Odessa - and that was the way they’d come home and he told us, he said, he didn’t tell us they were attacking Stuttgart. I never, as we were talking after ‘cause they came up and had a holiday with us and he said he doesn’t know if he was thrown out, blown out or how he got out of his aircraft all he remembered was landing in this street in Stuttgart and the SS women bent over him, questioned him, getting to know where he was from all the rest of it before he came to his senses and all the rest of it and they would never let on and when he was a prisoner of war he was in solitary confinement because he just wouldn’t talk and they used to bring him out every morning the Germans did in the office, into the office and quiz him and said to him one morning, “Ah Sergeant Walters. Now then, let’s see, Scampton wasn’t it?” and he thought wow you’re only two fields away but he said I never would let on where he was and Dunholme Lodge was only a couple of fields from Scampton anyway and he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t tell them where he was from.
But they came and had this holiday with us and I had the good fortune ‘cause I went - going back to the farm.
DE: Ahum
RC: You couldn’t change jobs other than farm. Well you could if you wanted to go in to the army. If you went, if you left the farm you got automatically got called up in to the army.
DE: Ahum.
RC: But I think it was about 1947 when that was lifted and I couldn’t wait to get off to try and get a job with a bit better wage to it. And I started truck driving.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And that really was the basis of my working life through was on the trucks so I used to get down to Ipswich when Fysons had a factory here in Lincoln and we used to take stuff from there to Fysons in Ipswich and I used to call and see Kath and Franl and stop the night with them sometime if I wasn’t going to get home again. Stopped the night with them.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And he’d got, he was in to civvy street then of course and he was making himself a motorbike and sidecar in his shed. Building this all up and everything and then he contacted us one week and he said, “You’ll never guess.” So we said, “What?” He’d got this thing done but he couldn’t get it out his shed. He had to take the side of his shed off or something to get the thing out of his, out of his shed yeah. But yes I haven’t heard from them for years. I don’t suppose they’re alive. They were older than me so.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I suppose they’ve passed on now. Yeah.
DE: But you struck up a friendship while they were living with you and carried on.
RC: Oh yes. Yes, we, we, they used to come. We used to go down to the Nelson at Dunholme. They liked that seemed to like that pub and we used to go down there with them and yes. So, well I think at the time she was only about eighteen but I have a newspaper, the Daily Mirror, from that time and they are on the front page, Kath and Frank are, and the Mirror paid for them a weekend in London and it was saying about how he’d been a prisoner of war and such like and they paid for the to have the weekend in London for them both, bought her an outfit and top seat in a, in a theatre. Top seat - seventeen and sixpence. That was the price of a top seat in those days. Yeah they gave them weekend out and then they came up to see us and we couldn’t believe it. My sister, a younger sister of mine went to our door that morning and picked up the paper – the Mirror.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And she’s looking at it walking back up the hallway and said, “That’s Frank and Kath,” and blimey we are famous yeah.
DE: Smashing. You say you were in a, in a bit of a hurry to get out of farm work as soon as you could. Was, was -
RC: Well the wages weren’t good.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: The wages weren’t good and there was better, the war was over and so there were better opportunities about plus there was no fear of getting pulled in to the army or something like that.
DE: Ahum.
RC: If, if, if you left. You could leave the farm but they’d have you for your fitness and what not straightaway and have you in in no time. Or I think it was coalmines as well where they were, they didn’t have to enlist without they were called up. So, yes so I travelled the length and the breadth of this country and it came in handy for some people. People started to go more around the country for their holidays and people, see they didn’t have cars. In my younger days there, there was only two people in Welton had cars. Nobody else had a car.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: But people got their own cars and people very often would come to me, hey Bob how do you get to so and so wherever they were going holidaying and I was often having people coming on a Friday or something and say oh tomorrow we’re going to - where’s the best way to go sort of thing.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And this was of course before motorways. Even the A1 was only just an ordinary road. It wasn’t even a dual carriageway.
DE: Yeah.
RC: Dual carriageways became a new thing to have dual carriageways before motorways and such like.
DE: So who would be the two people in the village that had a car then?
RC: There was a shop. Well they had a van. Well they had a van. It’s now the co-op at Welton. It was some people called Applewhite.
DE: Ahum.
RC: They had, they had a van and the people who had a car - the post office did. I think, can’t remember what they did? I think another family did have a car I suppose he was business of some sort. But our job when we left school used to be, “Don’t run off you lads. I want a push with my car” and that used to be and we’d push him from the school was, it’s flats now I think almost on Welton Green and that was the only school there was in Welton. Just this one building. So I did all my education there and the woman who had the post office at Welton, her name was Crosby but she eventually married George Howton [?] who were our teacher and it was him that wanted a push with his car and we’d push him right down as far as Hackthorn Lane before the thing struck up and he daren’t stop it again so he just left us all to walk back. We tried to get out of school quick before he mentioned this big word, “Don’t go away lads,” you know. Oh dear. Here we go again. Yeah. Good old days.
DE: Marvellous.
RC: Yeah.
DE: So you, you were showing us earlier some photographs which you’ve kindly let us scan for the archive. There’s one with some people in the Home Guard and one with, with Auxiliary Firemen. Can you tell us a little about those pictures?
RC: Yes well like I was showing you the photographs of dad’s armies as it’s called, the Home Guard were called. My dad was a corporal and our next door neighbour was also a corporal and then there were others. And there was one officer. Oh the village blacksmith he was a sergeant. But we were doing, it would be for November memorial I should think. There was this parade on at Welton and the Home Guard from around about, from Dunholme and all those places I think they came as well but my dad and Harry Lawrence next door they were going to be guard of honour at the cenotaph at Welton and they were the only two with rifles anyway. And so Harry being smaller, a bit smaller than my dad came around ‘cause he lived next door to us and he was concerned that they would get it together when they sloped arms and presented arms you see and my dad said to him, my dad had been in the army when he was younger and he said, “Don’t worry I’ll count to you”. He said, “I’ll say one two three one two three without anybody really hearing,” he said so they’d got this all worked out. So they thought they’d give it a try in our kitchen. So they stood there side by side and my dad said, “One two three one two three,” and they went to slope arms, of course they had to do it all properly. They had to have, they had to have the old bayonets fixed as well. The old type bayonets. I don’t know, about thirteen inches long, and Harry stuck his straight through our kitchen window - ceiling. And as the, as the thing came on television what not - Dad’s Army I think about that occasion. I thought, oh so funny. They needn’t have to have the bayonet fixed on. It didn’t matter at that time. But they had to everything proper yeah. Oh, so funny that was.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah.
DE: The other photo you had was the Auxiliary Fire Service.
RC: Yes the fire service. We were, we had two of the places at the, down in the backstreet. One for the pump and the other for the, for the room where we, well the beds in it and the table, what not where we - I joined the fire service there. You had to be the Home Guard or something. It wasn’t everybody had a fire service in the village. We had one so I joined the fire service.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And we went out to one or two crashes and what not. We went out on to Dunholme Lodge when it was being, apparently they were laying the runway at the time but of course there wasn’t much light to be going on and there was an Irishman there, I think it was an Irishman and I think he’d been the night watchman or something over all the goings on there but something had caught fire and the fire engine had, oh it was the RAF the RAF had got one there that’s right. And they’d used foam on this fire and -
DE: Ahum.
RC: We got there and this chap was right panicking. He’d lost his watch. His pocket watch and of course you’d got blobs of foam about and he was trying to find tis pocket watch. Well I thought he wasn’t bothered about the fire or anything it was his watch he was looking for. Yeah. He didn’t find it while I was there anyway. He lost his, why they put foam. Water would have done but yeah there was quite a few Dads Army type of things happened then when you look back. No wonder they made a programme of it really. It was silly things did happen yeah.
DE: So how did being an auxiliary fireman fit in with, with working on the farm?
RC: It had to fit in. That’s it. We used to be on every fifth night from 10 o’clock till six in the morning. Then you’d got to go to work. If, you know like if there’d been a red warning and you’d stayed you couldn’t go to bed but it was alright you could go to bed if there was no red warning.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And we were attached to Charles Warner’s had a garage at the top Wragby Road, top of Lindum Hill, Wragby Road area and we were attached to them and we were supposed to let them know if we were turning out. I think really we were supposed to wait until they said we could go but we found out if we did that we’d never go. They’d never let us go. They’d say oh we’ll go first if they need two pumps we’ll call you out. So when we did have to turn out we’d wait while they’d gone then we’d ring Lincoln and tell them it was urgent and we’d turned else we’d never have got out.
RC: We went to Hull one night.
DE: Really?
RC: The old way when you had to go around Gainsborough and around
DE: Oh of course, yeah. Yeah.
RC: Oh I tell you what. That night, that was frightening. Really frightening. Terrible experience, that, I mean. It really took a pounding Hull did. And not knowing the place as well.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And it sounds silly really but one of the, well he was our boss really of the crew I was with [?] he said, “Have a look down there and see if you can see a hydrant”. Well a hydrant in those days I think they’re on the floor now. There used to be a yellow plate on the wall and you knew that the hydrant then was four feet from that. And the silly thing was that the ships that was in the dock and all the the dock warehouses were blazing away and we couldn’t get near. All that water and we couldn’t get near it cause the ships were burning anyway and so he said see if there’s a hydrant around there and I’m looking for this for the plates on the wall or something and I just – “there aint one around here” and then a voice in the dark, a voice in the dark alleyway said, “Isn’t there one around here”, and I looked - it made me jump at first and there was this, a woman’s voice and it was this young, I don’t know how old she’d be - eighteen or nineteen nearly about my age and she said, “Our house has been hit” and I said well, “you didn’t ought to be here. There’s a police station down there”, I told her where the police station was. I said go there.
Anyway, when I went, I’m looking around and realised that our crowd had gone.
DE: Ahum
RC: And I thought now where has everybody gone? Here I am. I don’t know where I am. I don’t know the place at all and just down the road was a fire station so I went down and I said that I was with Welton I said and they said oh they’ve gone down to a wood yard down, I forget the road now to me it didn’t mean a thing and he said alright you can stay here and take messages. I thought -charming. I don’t even know the place and I’ve got to go to other pumps and I didn’t have to go with any luckily enough and after about an hour our pump turned up. They came back from this wood yard and so and we came home.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And like I say when you got home you still had to go to work.
DE: Ahum.
RC: You know. That’s how it was in those days. Yeah.
DE: Yeah so what so what so what sort of pump did you have and how many people?
RC: Foster Gwynne, Foster Gwynne pump. Made in Lincoln. They was mainly Coventry Climax pumps and we used to have competitions sometimes and they would, they would seize up sometimes some of these Coventry Climaxes would and they’d overheat and our Foster Gwynne’s would be whooping it out - two channels sixty pound pressure. Brilliant little pump it was. It was made in Lincoln that was.
DE: Ahum
RC: And I often wonder who finished up getting that. And most of the pumps the Coventry Climaxes they were painted grey or red. Ours was its original chrome and everything and that’s why we used to go around on a Saturday afternoon polishing it. We were proud of our little pump.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And they couldn’t do anything about it but they were a bit jealous of it I think some of the bigger fire stations that we had this little pump. Yes we used to have some good fun with that. Yeah.
DE: And how many people were you? Were you, were -
RC: It was a five man pump that was.
DE: Right.
RC: Yeah. It was. I had to take, it was my job to take the first roll of hose and you’d stand there with your arm out while the number two came and grab it as it came past, connect it then I had to at the back of the pump get the third hose, length of hose.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And the, and the hand pump and run off down with that.
DE: And what sort of vehicle pulled the thing?
RC: Oh a Daimler. I don’t know whose it had been but obviously it had taken over by the government obviously. Yeah we had this Daimler. Lovely car
DE: Ahum
RC: By jove it was. Yeah we had that at Welton yeah, yeah.
DE: How did, how did you feel being in the fire service then?
RC: Pardon?
DE: How did you feel being in the fire service?
RC: Well, we, we felt one up on the Home Guard anyway. At least we were one point higher than them. Not a lot was said on that line really I suppose. Its age wise you know. I was lucky that I enquired there and they said yeah we need another. We need another one in ours to make our numbers up for the pump and you see they needed at least well needed about thirty all together. They needed twenty five for the pump people and then there was always somebody would have to stay on the phone if you turned out.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And that’s how we got by and like I was saying before we, we in the fire service we got paid for it. I can’t remember what it was but we used to get it monthly. But it was, especially if you worked on the farm it was very nice. It was, I can’t remember now probably a fiver if that much but it was always appreciated.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And then there was a parade or something come along so we were having a bit of a practice at marching in the back street of Walton. Always having a bit of little laugh between us about it and then we did an about turn and there was two of the officers from Lincoln [laughs]. They halted us when we got to them. They tore us a strip off and said you’ll be better than them at Buckingham palace by the time they finished with us so we were put through our paces a bit but I think there was some big parade going to be in the village and we was going to turn out as well, we had to have to turn out as well with them yeah.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah there was some good times on it yeah.
DE: Did you get much training?
RC: No, no you didn’t. There really wasn’t too much training. One thing you had to do you had to be able to carry from off the first floor with a ladder up to the first, up to the second floor. You had to be able to carry an eleven stone person up on his back down this and I remember I did it.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And I was only about eighteen but you know I worked on the farm throwing sacks of corn about and you were used to, you know and if the person you’re carrying just stays limp and doesn’t try and do it for you sort of thing.
DE: Ahum.
RC: It wasn’t too bad. And we were talking about the rectory had a big place like that where we were, a flat roof and so we was able to do it from that yeah. And he had some nice pear trees in that rectory as well. They were very nice. So sometimes if the red warning was on, we couldn’t go to bed so we used to walk around and have a pear.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah.
DE: Can you explain red warning for us?
RC: Well that’s when there’s a raid on sort of thing and the night that Lincoln Nurses’ Home got hit that was one Sunday teatime.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I was at home at about half past five. We heard this explosion even at, even at Welton and we came out and stood outside our back door which was Hackthorn side sort of thing and to anybody listening it was Hackthorn out our back door, out that way but we heard this German and looked up and it was just broken cloud up above but I did just see it.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Go from cloud to cloud sort of thing but they did get it down over Grimsby. But the, the Kirton Lindsey was fighters and oh five minutes more after that there was the spitfires err Hurricanes going towards Lincoln from Kirton Lindsey way and you felt so helpless. You felt like saying, “Oi they’ve gone that way,” and anyway he was shot down near Grimsby. Yeah. I remember that happening. We didn’t know while later on that it was near the Nurse’s Home where the bomb went off but there was, it was obvious that Ruston’s, they, I mean the Germans knew about Ruston’s and that’s why but they used to say that lord Haw-haw used to come on and break into English radio, Lord Haw-haw and he, for Germany and he said one night we shall not bomb Lincoln Cathedral because our pilots know the way to Sheffield when they get to Lincoln Cathedral. I remember that happening yeah. He’d break into the, I think it was the 9 o’clock news on the radio.
DE: Ahum
RC: Not every night but it made people put the radio in case he did, hear what he had to say. Yeah. Lord Haw-haw yeah.
DE: Did you ever witness any aeroplane crashes then when you were in the fire service?
RC: The one, that one on, on at Scothern on a Saturday afternoon. There was a Lancaster at, oh three parts of the way up that cliff road Welton Cliff Road toward Scampton, a Lancaster and I think he must have run out of fuel. No fire or anything and he was just on top of a hedge in a way, just run into a hedge. Another, another half a mile he’d have been at Scampton sort of thing but I think they must, but they took it to bits and took it away again.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah that was about the only actual fires that we, we, we saw in our time yeah.
DE: You were talking earlier about another? Another crash that you’d attended?
[pause]
Where there was another crew as well, another fire crew as well.
RC: Oh that was when the, the RAF crew.
DE: Ahum.
RC: That was the one at Scothern.
DE: Right you talked.
RC: If we’d known where they were from Welton they said Dunholme but in those days it was Dunholme Lodge was the thing that stuck in your mind.
DE: Ahum.
RC: But Dunholme village wasn’t that way at all. If we’d known it was actually, it would look like Dunholme cause Scothern from that angle was beyond Dunholme.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And if that woman had said, you know it looked like Dunholme. Dunholme was there and Dunholme Lodge was over on the right. We would have been straight there, we’d have been there by the time we were going to Dunholme Lodge and finding them still gawping there down the road at all the smoke.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: We’d have been, we’d have been there but we couldn’t have done anything.
DE: Ahum
RC: The biggest pieces was the wheels.
DE: Really?
RC: There was just nothing left of it. It hit the high cables.
DE: Ahum.
RC: It hit the yeah hit the high cables and it just blew it to pieces. I don’t think there was a bomb on board and been blown to pieces that way. It might have had but I didn’t hear exactly. I know it had hit the cables.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah and they were all killed on it yeah.
DE: Talking about some, some probably happier times did you, talking about seeing certain, certain people?
RC: Oh yeah, yeah well at the Black Bull at Welton was the nearest pub for them just out of Scampton and I was at the green one, near the green, Black Bull area one night and this car pulled up and these two young RAF fellows got out and a dog with them and off they went in to the Black Bull for a drink. And then this, this raid took place down to the dams.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And it became more, it was all in the news quite a while every day about this busting the dams and dambusters and all this, that and the other and Gibson’s photograph became more prominent in the papers and then one day I’m looking at the paper and I looked at this, this photo and I thought I don’t believe this and it was Gibson and another man. Looking at him this was one of the photos of the fellows I’d seen that day outside the Black Bull.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And the dog would have been N*****. I mean it fussed around me and I thought nothing of it at the time. I mean I liked dogs and thought of nothing but you know I can do it, I in my own mind I can say I was stood near him but it’s only as he’s became more popular, his picture was always in the paper it suddenly struck me I thought he was one of them blokes.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah. And then they was on about when his dog got run over. His, his his batman was also his truck driver he got fourteen day [unclear] for that.
DE: Did he?
RC: Yeah. We used to get, we used to know this from some of the lads, ordinary lads that used to come into the Black Bull used to play darts with or whatever, football or something used to play football with us yeah and they said it was outside. One airman, and I thought he said one of the airmen he’d been to when he was getting his crews together and he’d been to the middle another airfield forgotten the name of it just south of Lincoln anyway but he was I was just been reading a book the other day and it said outside Scampton main gates.
DE: Ahum
RC: And I thought these blokes had told me at the time it was outside this other camp main gates that he was getting his crews together ready for this raid but he said he got two weeks [unclear] for letting the dog get out the - and that was another thing, they used to have open days at Scampton and Hemswell.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And some of the lads would say, “Are you coming on Saturday Bob?” and I’d say, “Oh yeah of course and I said yeah see N*****’s grave” and they said, “You won’t. This year you’ve got to go a different way.” ‘Cause I knew Scampton, I saw it built and everything and used to go past it a lot and they were saying, they said to , “You know last year when you went this way, that way,” and I said, “Yeah.”, “Oh you’re not doing that this year you’ve got to inside the main gates and you’ve got to go left,” and they was telling me where and I knew where they meant you see and I said oh we shan’t go past N*****’s grave then and they said, “You will. We’ve moved it”. And all they’d done was pull the cross up and put it somewhere else and then there was a bit back in the Echo I was reading they was on about where was N***** buried and I thought I bet nobody really knows - this is between me and you – I thought nobody really knows where that dog was buried. They just used to move the jolly cross to suit them. Yeah
DE: Have to get Time Team to
RC: Yeah.
DE: To come up.
RC: Oh dear yeah but yes those were good days out they were yeah ‘cause they, when they first opened I was, I used to be errand boy for a local butcher at Welton before I left school. Used to go before school in the morning, after school at night and all day on a Saturday and me and there was the butcher and he had the man that worked for him Ken [unclear]
DE: Ahum.
RC: And Ken used to do Scampton and Hemswell married quarters. There was eleven officers houses at Hemswell and err Scothern err Scampton.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And thirty four ordinary house and Hemswell was just the same they had thirty four and we used to ‘cause you see rationing was on so you had to be joined with a butcher somewhere.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And we used to do them on a Saturday morning and another lad who worked for them for a bit he used to go with the boss himself and he used to do Welton and Dunholme. They used to come back for dinner and then after dinner the boss and Ken who I’d been with they used to go to Snarford and Foldingworth and out that way on the butchers round with the joint sort of thing, the rations and that sort of thing and me and the other lad used to stop and used to scrub the shop and the slaughterhouse.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Cause they used to slaughter a lot of their own animals themselves there and I used to get six shillings a week for that and then when I was leaving school he wanted me to go full time. Oh and we used to have my meals there as well on a Saturday but he wanted me to go there full time and, and have my meals at home - for eight shillings. And I was getting, and my dad said you get a pound on a farm and that’s how I come to really go on a farm. That’s all they used to pay you for that. There wasn’t a joint of meat I didn’t know. I used to make stones of sausages and they were renowned for their sausage at Welton, their sausage. I can say their name now cause they’re not alive now – Applewhite. He was renowned for his sausages. His Lincolnshire sausages. I made stones of the things before I went to school in the morning.
And then there was one morning I got an order he wanted me to take to the farmer at Dunholme - a Mr Lilley and so off I went on my bike. This was before I went to school and there’s me going down down there and while I’m going down there Ryland towards Dunholme and there was a Hampden cause this was before Lancaster.
DE: Yeah.
RC: And I thought what’s he doing just going around and around like that. And then I saw a parachute come out of it and I thought wow a chap’s jumped out of that and I eventually got to Lilley’s down at Dunholme and they used to, nobody locked the doors, they just used to shout come in and I knocked on the door and come in and I went in and there was an airman sat there.
DE: Ahum.
RC: With his hand wrapped up and it wasn’t him that I’d seen jump out the aircraft but he had jumped out of it. And he’d landed in the hedge of this farmhouse and he’d hurt his thumb.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And what had, what had happened was that the Hampden couldn’t get it’s wheels down but they jumped out and then he got his wheels down and he landed safely at Scampto. Yeah but the crew had all, but the pilot, had jumped out and he was, what he was doing as well he was using fuel up as well and then he would belly land it somewhere. That was the plan.
DE: Ahum.
RC: But then his wheels came down so he went to Scampton and landed yeah but the chap sat in the house waiting for the ambulance to come and whoever was going to come like to him and I think he’d broke his thumb or something yeah. So you saw a bit of life at times.
DE: Going back to the dams raid from Scampton.
RC: Ahum.
DE: The first time I met you, you told me a story about seeing them take off.
RC: Oh yeah. Yeah we had a like we’ve had lately a lovely, lovely day you know the weather had been absolutely perfect and me and the lad next door to us George Lawrence I bumped into him only a couple of weeks ago in Gainsborough market and we remarked about this story which I’m about to tell you. So we stood there talking away and suddenly we heard the familiar noise of these Lancasters and we looked towards Scampton and there’s these three Lancasters flying ever so low and weren’t attempting to gain height at all. They were just, and we were almost speechless seeing them so low and they went by and George said to me, “Look they’re sending them barrels of beer now.” and I said, “Yeah.” and off they went to over between Welton and Hackthorn and ever so low not trying to get any higher. Course then when we heard the news and as time went on we found it was a low level job all the way anyway and we realised that what we’d seen were the bombs, the different type of bombs that they’d got on yeah. But we never, we never saw any more take off that night from Scampton although there was more went but I don’t know. I don’t know which way those three had took off because the way they were coming there wasn’t a runway facing that way so they must have took off somewhere, circled around and then got the height they wanted to be and that was it and off they went. Yeah. Saw that quite clear, yeah.
DE: Well that’s smashing. I think I’ve well I’m almost running out of questions. What do you, what are your feelings about the way bomber command has been remembered over the last seventy years?
RC: Oh I think it’s very good I, I I’ve got loads of books on it and there’s, there’s, there was three books came out about, with all the crashes that happened, where they’d flown from, where they’d been going to. I can’t remember the name of them. Have you seen them?
DE: I think so, yeah.
RC: But we later on in life we lived in Lincoln and we had a bed and breakfast place and we had these books and sort of things out.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Not to be taken away. Then we suddenly find that I think its number three book was missing. We must have had somebody staying with us saw something in it that rung a bell with them, with, about someone they knew probably and they must have took it home.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And they’re out of print now. They’re out of print. I couldn’t get another one.
DE: Oh dear.
RC: I went to Ruddocks and they said oh they’re out of print now. So I’ve got the other two which, you know and I often get them out. I think oh yeah I remember that one. They’d ring a bell with me but yes cause it was sad about that because any of those Lancaster books I have to refrain myself a bit now ‘cause the bookshelves tend to get rather full you know but yeah I love reading about them.
DE: Yeah.
DE: Yeah so these books did you manage to go through them and find crashes that you knew about?
RC: Yeah, yeah two like I say two of them, the other one someone took it home anyway with them and if you notice at the time you could say something you know, have you pick a book up by the way.
DE: Yeah.
RC: So it was more sad because I couldn’t get another.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I don’t know how much they were at the time but that weren’t the point if I could have got another but no so I’ve just got the two of them. I’ve got loads of other sort as well about the Lancasters but those have got, they’ve the crew in and 44 squadron they were Rhodesian squadron actually at Dunholme Lodge. I think they came from, I think they came from up Brigg side some, not Brigg near to Cleethorpes side somewhere like that. Ludford, not Ludford but somewhere like up there I think they came.
DE: Ahum.
RC: To Dunholme Lodge oh and then after they’d left Dunholme Lodge we got, we got the Polish people. Now that was an experience that was.
DE: Really.
RC: Oh had a laugh with them at Welton we used to have. On bikes a lot of them.
DE: Yeah.
RC: And of course they didn’t, Poland didn’t ride on the same side of the road as we did but that didn’t matter to them they – dear, dear me. We, yeah, they used to be all over the road with their bikes and didn’t get involved with the local people very much. Anyway, us lads was at the fish shop one night. I mean Welton now has a good name, it’s always had a good name, Welton fish but anyway I went at the fish shop one night and this young oh and the I’ll say this the WAAFs Polish WAAFs most of them most could go on a slimming course I’ll put it that way and we were at the fish shop this night and this really smart girl WAAF came along. Polish. And she just wanted a bag of chips and there was three or four of us and I was always up for a dare and anyway so one of them said I bet you don’t speak to her when she comes out so I said I bet bet I dare so anyway out she came and I said I’ll push your bike and you eat your chips and I tried to explain to her that and she just sort of smiled and I walked with her bike and at Welton village hall used to be the that’s where Polish people were stationed when they come and Welton well not the old one, it’s a new one but it used to be used to be WAAF community meeting place where that was and we got nearly there and thought I’d better not go any further. I was about fifty, a hundred yards away from there and I sort of indicated to her that I wasn’t coming any further and so off she went and I went back and having a good laugh we was you see and anyway after that I got talking to must have been some English airmen that was there and I never saw this WAAF again you see. I never saw her again and they said she’d been moved and they said oh if they know that she’d been talking to an Englishman they’d move her to another camp ‘cause I never saw her again.
DE: Ahum.
RC: I saw some that I used to see regularly you know but that one, she was really a lovely looking lass and you know quite slim compared to what all the others were yeah and they reckoned yeah reckoned they had moved her to another camp.
DE: Crikey.
RC: Yeah so yeah but yeah some these things you suddenly remember again. You know.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Memories.
DE: The other things that you brought with you are some Italian POW.
RC: Oh yes they were, they were two Italians. We had two Italian prisoners who worked with us at Dunholme Lodge and there’s a cottage down there now it’s used as a memorial place.
DE: Ahum.
RC: For Dunholme I don’t know if you’ve been to it or not down at the bottom of the farmyard yeah and they, there was three of them. Two smallish fellas - Italians and this really biggish bloke and he only had to do two hours a day on the farm and quite honestly we could do without him. He was useless. Anyway and there would be I think they came from Kirton Lindsay there were two camps there was a German and an Italian camp there. Anyway I got to be sort of spokesman for these two lads, got to understand them a little bit and any problems they had I’d see David Whites and you know tell him. Anyway they, they were saying, and they good little workers as well they were and they were saying something about the food and they said would I ask David Whites if he could send him back to camp and they would look after themselves. So righto so when I saw the boss I said I don’t reckon they get much food I reckon. And he used to walk into Lincoln this fellow did you see at the weekend and they reckon he knew a woman in Lincoln and he was taking her food. So anyway David Whites got it done and they took him back to camp and these two lads managed on, and do you know the three months they really were like little pigs. You know they really did put some weight on Gino [?[ [unclear] and Mosello[?] [unclear]
DE: Ahum.
RC: Mosello Ovello [?] [unclear] Italy – that’s, that was his address. I used to write to him when they went back after the war and I went, as I say they stayed until the end of the war until they were repatriated. And then they have open days at Dunholme Lodge now. Their gardens. About twice a year and the spring and over the years David Whites married, he married a vet. His wife was a vet. She’s died now. But one of the Italians was so excited one day he was on about Mr Whites. And I said yeah? That’s the vet’s car. He’d seen them around one of the crew yards plenty kissy kissy he said [laughs] and eventually he did marry the vet and now he’s got, he’s got two, I don’t know if he’s got a daughter but he’s got two sons and they still live up there. And I thought when had this place, remembrance place, bottom of the farm and opened up the, the farm and I thought I’ll have to have a look around there one of these times so I went one year. Well when they found out that I knew these Italian prisoners I’m the only one now alive that worked there, you see, you know.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And when they knew that I was, I knew these Italians and reeled off the address like I did you just now I said yeah I used to write to them. Oh they thought it was marvellous they did.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: And you know I’m sort of very friendly with them now and go up and look around and they always get on and say we never met anyone who knew these Italian prisoners. I said oh yeah I remember them coming, I remember them when they went I said.
DE: Ahum.
RC: So I was there until I was about twenty five or six something like that I worked there. They were nice lads and one of them wanted me to go to Italy and marry his sister or something yeah but Marcello Orvello [?] yes they were nice lads and they used to, one of them used to come to the dances at Welton and I used to say to them they’d be no bother to you if you’re no bother to them.
DE: Ahuh.
RC: I was sort of in charge of, no I wasn’t nobody bothers them. And [?] used to love it, coming to the village dance at Welton but they used to say you remember [unclear] I used to smoke then they used to bring me their full packet of cigarettes cause they, neither of them smoked then like.
DE: Ahum.
RC: And with this here other fella and it turned out actually when he was taken back to camp they said to me used to say to me the next day I wasn’t to bring any food with me, good eat with them. [unclear] they called food [unclear] you had to eat with them so I said to me mother I didn’t need a pack up.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Marcello [?] and [unclear] want me to have my dinner with them. What I’m going to get I don’t know and I went with them and they did it all over the open fire in a frying pan sort of thing. Everything went into this frying pan sort of thing and they also showed me the room he had, the other bloke had a room on the right. They was upstairs and on the back of the door was a swastika of the other fella.
DE: Ahum of the other guy, right.
RC: They got rid of. Yeah and he was a German but they were Italian so they must have been at Kirton Lindsay camp both of them.
DE: So they were living in a farm building?
RC: Yeah oh yes it’s still there now and it’s used a remembrance place now. Yeah
DE: And what sort of work were they doing on the farm?
RC: Same work yeah what we did.
DE: Ahum.
RC: Yeah one of them used to drive one of the tractors in the end.
RC: And they had quite a bit of freedom to come and go.
DE: Oh yeah yeah they were no bother them lads weren’t no. But yes they told me their address and if ever I was in Italy. They told me around to visit. I’ve been to Italy just over in to Italy once on a holiday like but I never got around to going. Well actually [?] left me a photograph, he said it was his sister, come and marry my sister you know. And I haven’t got it. I don’t know where it went to, yeah.
RC: But there wasn’t any sort of hard feelings with them being in the village.
DE: No, no, no, no, no we had some good times together but, but the Whites were over the moon because they’d met someone who was still alive that worked on the farm and knew these Italians. Their dad used to tell them about these Italian prisoners oh yes [unclear] and [unclear]. [unclear]. I said I wrote letters there. They didn’t get there. I used to get them back. The trouble was when I got a reply I couldn’t read it and in finding somebody in Welton who could decipher it all and it was very, very difficult and I think that’s what
DE: Right.
RC: In the end we sort of drifted apart. We never, you know, so what he was actually saying in the letters. Well he did say, I got it done once, would I ask Mr Whites if he would get them back to come and work for him again
DE: Ahum
RC: Yeah they loved it there. And we got the land back from Dunholme Lodge as well while they was with us as well and had all that to plough up.
DE: Right.
RC: And had to rush around that spring and put barley down and all of it there and yeah but
DE: Right.
RC: Yeah we had some good times with them.
DE: I think that’s smashing unless there’s anything else you can think of.
RC: No.
DE: Might be of interest that’s a wonderful interview thank you very much.
RC: No it all happened in such a short time. Something happens even nowadays and it reminds you then of something, oh yeah I remember a similar thing happening in you know and I’m glad I can still, my wife wouldn’t think so like but I think my memory is pretty good. [laughs]
DE: I think so too, yeah.
RC: You’ve got to remember what you’ve got to remember when the wife’s around [laughs]. Yeah no but she would, she said if she’d come with me today she said all she would be able to say was that she lived at Metheringham and they built that aerodrome. We are going actually, probably go Saturday anyway. Never been to their to their -
DE: Oh. The Visitor Centre.
RC: The Visitor Centre. We always say we’re going but never get there. Yeah but yeah I’ve seen it all happen. Saw Scampton when it was all being built. About 1936 when they started to rebuild that and I’m told that in the First World War it was more where the showground is.
DE: I think that’s right yeah.
RC: All that way so I don’t know. I used to be, I used to play golf with the flight engineer off the Vulcans.
DE: Ahum.
RC: He’s dead now. A chap from Hykeham and he said that they used to go on these with the Americans on these bombing,
DE: Exercises.
RC: Exercises and the Vulcans used to go out tops every time like, you know. They reckoned they were brilliant aircraft. And when they come back from America when they came back from abroad with them they had to go through like you would if you were on a flight, you had to go through customs and whatnot but they used, I think he said they used to come back through Grimsby and so Waddington would tell Grimsby that they’d got aircraft coming back from you know and used to tell them time of arrival, you know and John said if we’d get up to forty thousand feet he said and you got a good back wind he said with the Vulcans he said we can knock an hour off easily. That’s what he said. From America. And he said some of the lads used to, he wasn’t a big drinker John wasn’t but he said you had to back a whisky and what not and what’s the name would come and say you’ve got a plane coming back from America something and oh they’re in, they’ve been, they’ve gone home ages. [unclear] Yeah. Them Vulcans could really move.
DE: Yeah.
RC: If they kept to forty thousand he said. Yeah
DE: Smashing that’s great thank you ever so much.
RC: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rob Carter
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Fire fighters
Description
An account of the resource
Rob Carter was born in the village of Scampton and reminisces about his life on the land before the war. He recounts the foundation of RAF Dunholme Lodge, which his house overlooked. During the war, he served in the Auxiliary Fire Service. He was called to put out the fire at an aircraft crash site near RAF Dunholme Lodge. He describes the pumps that the Auxiliary Fire Service used, Foster Gwynne and Coventry Climax. He recounts experiencing bomb attacks on Hull and Lincoln, in which the Lincoln Nurses’ Home was hit.
Creator
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Dan Ellin
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-29
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
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01:06:53 audio recording
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eng
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ACarterRH150629
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Hull
England--Lincoln
England--Welton (Lincolnshire)
England--Scampton
England--Yorkshire
Type
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Sound
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
crash
firefighting
home front
prisoner of war
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Kirton in Lindsey
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/15/25/ABoschD150730.1.mp3
2448e92d76f47177718312bd530f4e19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bosch, Dirk
D Bosch
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Dirk Bosch (b. 1931) a schoolboy in Amsterdam during the war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-07-30
Identifier
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Bosch, D
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being carried out on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Mr Dirk Bosch, the interviewer is Mike Connock and the date is the 30th of July 2015 and the interview is taking place at Welton. Right, if you just tell me a bit about where and when you were born.
DB: I was born in Amsterdam, July 1931, just about eighty four years ago therefore and when war broke out I therefore was only I was only eight years and a number of months old. That’s very young and my parents obviously tried to shield me from everything. We lived in Amsterdam and I do remember that when Holland had capitulated as they obviously would have. They would either have been overrun by superior German forces or capitulate so I think it was a sensible option. The country is small. In the First World War which was often mentioned 1914 1918 the Netherlands were neutral and we liked it. We took that as a good thing and we wanted to be neutral again. So we tried to be neutral. We did not mobilise in the face of Germany because we thought we could pacify her. We could keep them quiet which meant that when war broke out we were not prepared. We were knowingly and consciously not prepared. My brother therefore who was of that age, older, about 12 years older than me [pause] he was lately, late on called up and he was got ready for the front because we didn’t engage, we didn’t engage with the Germans. It was that quiet. But he late on was called up and he was got ready for the front with no preparation to speak of. No training. No exercise. Just in, issued a uniform, keep him in that barracks there and you know he was very soon to go to the front when fortunately the war ended in Holland. We were not unhappy with that as such. It, it was the best of two evils really.
So I remember standing along one of our main entry roads into Amsterdam and the Germans came in in endless columns. Nearly all in transport. There weren’t any, any boots on the floor. They were nearly all were in transport and they dashed past us, they rushed past into the centre of Amsterdam and from there probably onward. The Germans being Germans will have been well organised. And that afternoon. Whatever time it took - that was it. We were now occupied. You didn’t notice that much on the day. We didn’t hear any
MC: I was going to say, you were going to say I just wondered how the schooling, your schooling was, you know, up until that time.
DB: OK.
MC: Can you?
DB: Well yeah I’m trying to recoup where I was. Anyway the Germans were all through town and for one thing they took our school. We had a nice, fairly modern school and they took it for a hospital. We therefore, the pupils had to join another school and I haven’t got the dates and times precisely I know but it was something like 8 to 1 for the one school and one to half past five for the other school and that alternated. So, that, the prettier school that the Germans had, had taken for the hospital, that was built right into the middle of blocks of civilian houses and they had, I’m sure, done that on purpose to make sure that the RAF or whoever wouldn’t come in to bomb or anything. Well in the first place everything was pretty quiet. We were told at a fairly early time but I don’t know how early that we had to hand in our radios and my parents did but the neighbour below us because we lived in flats, the neighbours below us hid theirs. Now if it had been found they would have been shot. As easy as that. But it wasn’t found because the man was a worker at a local bank and he had all sorts of nooks and crannies at his disposal, vaults and safes and he could manage to scriddle[?] his radio away. We did of course see Germans walking and we also had what we referred to as the NSB which is the National Socialist Bond or something and they acquired uniforms. They were given uniforms and they were put on the street corners selling their particular paper which I’ve never ever seen anybody buy. That was the most ostensible signs. There was, there were declarations. The Germans put declarations on walls and house sides and the declaration would be in the gothic lettering. We couldn’t hardly read it but then they also put what we would call today normal, normal script, normal font next to it and we were supposed to read that and see what we were to do and not to do because that was what it was all about. We had an underground and the underground was active but very cautious because we had little to gain. We couldn’t do anything that was terribly significant. I mean you wouldn’t go and kill a German soldier because the repercussions would be tremendous and you wouldn’t have achieved much. So we just saw them march and they sang. We had a curfew. Not I suppose at once but I only remember it if it was all [?] time we had a curfew at night, fairly early. I would think depending on how light it was. Something between 6 and 7 and then at night when we had little to do but go to bed we could hear the singing and marching. There was of course no transport to speak of because at, in 1940 stroke ‘45 we in Holland had very few motorcars in the first place. I mean who had a motorcar? I had one uncle who had a car and I had twelve uncles, you know and, but that was how life was. That was normal. We had bicycles. The use of the bicycles was fairly limited because the Germans built cordons and let all the bicycles run into it but none out. They took the bicycles for melting down the rubber of the tyres and the steel or the metal anyway for their, for their weapons production. So people became terribly frightened and cautious about using their bicycles. The out, the way out was by using the bicycles without tyres. It’s possible. It makes it a much slower process and very loud especially on cobbles. The things rattle like hell but what developed was that parties of people not many at once would go ‘up farmer’. Now ‘up farmer’ means you go and sort out a farmer somewhere in the country. You take your box camera or your, a couple of sheets or whatever you have in the cupboard and you try and exchange that for something to eat because the, at this time, the time I’m talking about but not sure how to to identify we had no food and the farmers were sympathetic and I did take our stuff. I suppose I more or less had to, er but they would they would try to give you something to to take away and the thing to have was peas because they were long lasting things and wheat. Wheat was always fancied. Er Potatoes. Potatoes could last a good while but anyway anything they would give and then the people would walk the bikes so they wouldn’t matter so much if they made a bit noise but there were trips beyond a single day so they would have to sleep somewhere by the roadside right on top of the bikes so that they wouldn’t get stolen or anything with their gear on and then the following day they would have to continue their journeys. Now my sister, who at that time must have been anything between fifteen and twenty, sorry I can’t know much better she did a couple of trips and she did it with a friend of hers, also of course a young lady and there was, I never heard of any problems that they had with the German soldiers. They were stopped and they were asked what they were doing and what they had there and they happened to get away with it. They didn’t lose any gear but a number of people would relate their stories. They were stopped by German soldiers. They would take everything they had got from the farmers and the bikes and they would have to walk the rest home with nothing. That of course was very, very unfortunate very unpleasant. So as war progressed we got we had less and less food. The Germans provided a system of ration cards and food to, to cover those ration cards. There was also what was known as centrale keuken - centralised kitchens and you had ration coupons for those kitchens and it was my not ever so pleasant duty to go with a pan to some shack somewhere and get your, your ration of slops whatever it was and carry them, carry that home again and when it got home it was a very unanimous sort of slops you know. There was, you could see perhaps a little bit of the potato or a little bit of carrot but you couldn’t really tell what it was. It was just like a thick soup basically and then if you wanted to warm it up somewhat or something you did not have any fuel. There was no gas. There was no electricity. Electricity wouldn’t have helped in this instance because in Holland we used gas for all that and electricity really only for lights, radio, that sort of thing. So we had stoves in our main room in our lounge, our sitting room - living room. We had stoves and where they came from I don’t know but there was a supply of little stoves. Little metal boxes and those boxes were more or less open in the bottom and had a hole in the top and they had a little drawer in the bottom and had the shelf in the middle like a roster with, you know that the air could pass through. And us kids were sent out to find branches and bits of paper and anything that would burn and what you could do you could put the little square box, metal that was on top of your stove your main stove in the lounge and the draft would come from the bottom, draw through the grid, the grill and you had some paper in there and you lit it and put your branches fired your branches, your bits of timber anything you could find and that would then burn quite well. You could put a pan on the top of it and the pan shut off the top so you have got an opening in the bottom for the air to go into, then you had a, it, it went through the fuel if you like. Then there was a vertical enclosure of it and that was not quite, did not quite go to the top. So the air that rose being hot would go over the top and at the back it would be sucked away into the works of the stove and go up your, the chimney in to the environment so that way you had a heated source and you could warm something a bit. Obviously later, in later years when it got colder and that last winter ’44, ‘45 wasn’t it, it was a very bad one. A very strong winter. It was not it, it, it meant nothing. It was not enough heat to do anything. At that time we would sit in our kitchens. It would be dark early. I don’t know what this discipline of lighting we had whether the clocks were forward or backward or two hours forward or two hours backward even we, I don’t know but it was light, it was dark early and you went to bed early. We sat in our kitchen and our kitchen was about ten foot by a good four foot and there was one little table in it. There were in fact six of us. My brother, two sisters, my father, my mother and myself and we would, we would sit on that around that little table a little table of about 60cm by 120metre, you know, very small and my mother would be invariably darning. My sister would be rehashing, recycling clothing would be unpicking the seams, would be cutting away the edges would be putting it back together and later sew it again on a hand sewing machine and then it would be a different size. It would be smaller because everything would have been uniformly proportionately be reduced and that was for somebody else to be used and that’s how we went with that. The ice on the windows was measurable it was at the bottom end of the of the window pane where some melting might have occurred and it had come down. At the bottom of the window pane it would be a good half inch thick and the whole pane would be filled with ice. And it would be rather beautiful to be honest where all these patterns that these crystals make. But upstairs, and I slept upstairs it would be absolutely freezing. It is unbelievable. People did not only died of hunger but they also died of cold of course. Now there is a big thing not yet mentioned to you which had its own affect all through and at one point we had on one the morning when we stepped out we saw people with funny yellow stars on their clothing and I had no idea. I had no idea what it was about and I don’t know if I very soon did because as I said my parents tried to keep me out of things. Not ever so religiously but on the whole you know I didn’t know about. But those of course were the Jews and at a given time these people all came out with these yellow stars on their coats and as you know the Jews wear a lot of black. Black overcoats are a favourite and then they had a very poorly sewn yellow stars on their coat. You could see someone very unused to sewing sometimes had sewn them on. Big course stitches you know five points that was all really. But once they were identifiable and identified they were sitting ducks. I suppose that there would have been certain ones who didn’t do it. They were very much in danger if they were found out but the ones who did do it were little better off. One morning and I, one of the things I remember, and I don’t think I have a memory for everything at all but one thing I remember when we walked to school from where we lived we crossed a rather main artery, you know, major road and as we came from the side street that we used to cross it and continue on the other side to my right were a number of German trucks, open trucks and there were people being ushered along the pavements. There were German soldiers stood along the pavement in in rows that I walked in between and the Germans were all armed and they were sort of roughly made to get into those trucks, standing on top in the open and those that had been filled were just having to stand there and wait and the rest will no doubt would have filled because we just crossed that road and we went on. Talk about it. We had no idea we had no idea. Nobody did. Perhaps at that time the right people hadn’t even been addressed to Hitler to set processes in in motion. I don’t know but we, Germans to us were our neighbours. We had a certain respect for Germans. Other countries as well. Holland by the nature of its minerals, its ores and other things we were dependant on foreign countries for much of our industrial product and we knew Germans and French and English well. On, even on the quite simple schools you learned the three languages German English and Dutch err German, English and French because you were expected later to be able to converse with these people.So, I’m trying to pick up my train of thought here. We, we had seen Germans we had known we knew, were more into German music than English or French music and we would have some idea of German films. Even in the, the wartime in the beginning of the war we could still go to cinemas but only to see German pictures and we spoke of Heinz Ruhmann because he was such a funny man. We didn’t mind Germans at that level somehow because oh they would look after us. The Jews would be alright. They were, after all they were Germans. They wouldn’t do anything nasty. It wasn’t in ‘em. And although we had our underground from the word go and people were very much anti the German sympathisers we didn’t at that point hate the Germans, strangely enough. Perhaps my memory is not perfect on that score or my knowledge but that’s how it must have been for at least for a good proportion. So we went into that period and the Jews were being deported to work camps. We understood that the Jews were being taken to work for the Germans. Now it wasn’t very nice. It wasn’t right, it wasn’t good but they’d be back soon. They wouldn’t be long. So there they went and the Germans started to empty their houses or their flats or whatever you know. We referred, in our idiom we referred to all that as houses. They started to empty their houses and if you looked in the railway yards you could see long columns of wagons with enormous banners on them from back to front and it says liefde giften van Holland [?]which means love gifts from the Netherlands. This of course was a lie but nobody was even shaken too much about that. After all we didn’t have that much respect for the German decorative but in any case we didn’t know what was going on and what happened was that those wagons were all being run off to Germany and somehow were made available to Germans. We of course in Holland had lots of waterways and near us in one of the canals we had one of these big lighters [?] . Are you familiar with lighter? A lighter is like a big open house a big hull really that’s all it is. And they were full of small items. I proudly, we jumped into them and do you know was rummaging about and I proudly brought some bank slips home. I had no idea what a bank slip was but I could, could draw on that. So I brought that home for drawing on and for writing on. Just a few things. I think I was then told not to do it again but that was the long and the short of it. So and by and by that disappeared. Now those houses stood empty and as it got cooler and colder eventually we Dutch people of Amsterdam came and broke open the the doors because in Holland and certainly at that time there was one front door and several flats off it so the flat, the front door could usually be opened with a latch key. So they kept, they left the front doors in the beginning but they began to take all the stairs away. They took the stairs away right to the top to the third or fourth floor they burnt them of course. That was fuel. And when that had gone they took the doors on the higher floors away and when they had gone they took the floors of the floor of the other floors away and when they had gone they took the beams and rafters until they were stood there empty. The front door by that time would have gone as well but they, they were empty carcases of houses. The bricks of course remained and I think out of caution and health and safety they left some of the beams so they wouldn’t collapse on people. But that that was that. That disappeared. We had one Jewish couple - couple from family which we were acquainted with and they disappeared. We knew through my sister there was a girl in that family Stella and her father and mother and their fathers and mothers they all disappeared one day. Gone. And only the girl herself came back. After the war, I don’t know I think it was the Americans who found them in their concentration camp. After the war they were first taken back to another part of Germany and then to Sweden and from Sweden to America and we have known them and we have visited them in New York where she had by that time married a German. A German Jew. He had also been in a, in a concentration camp and they, they told us stories not too much because it’s distasteful and you don’t like to talk about that but on the other hand they were very keen that young, younger people, their own kids would be well acquainted of facts. Right. What I would want to say is are you happy that little?
MC: Did your parents work at that time? Were they, what did they do?
DB: At -
MC: For work
DB: At that time women very rarely worked in Holland. They were housewives. Holland of course had a reputation for being clean and everything. Well those women at home were always cleaning and they cleaned the streets in front of our flats and we, carpets were being beaten twice a week and it was quite a, quite a thing you know and all carpets were taken up – carpets and rug, rugs, and my mother would talk to the lady below us and they would come together, take all the carpets and rugs out. Some of ‘em had special steps, wooden steps, very tall about seven steps to a set and they had two brackets in the top rung and they would bring down a long wooden pole and they would push the pole through the brackets and big the eyes and then they would put the carpets over the pole and they would hold a corner of it in one hand and the carpet beater in the other hand and they would give it hell and, I didn’t know that at the time but there was even regulation about it. Not everyone could at any time beat a carpet. You couldn’t do it before and I’m guessing 8 o’clock because people might still be sleeping. And you couldn’t do it longer than 10 o’clock because it was about time that it stopped and when those carpets were being beaten and remember that was all down the street and those buildings are four storeys high so it echoes and the din was enormous and then when it was done it had to be rolled up, taken up the stairs, the stair carpets had to come down as well and the stair carpets were sewn together so that when they were rolled out they took the shape of the stair and then they had the carpet rods and they were, had to be reinserted under the eyes that were drilled into the carpet to the stairs however and then peace was restored. But it was not of any import in itself of course. Not relevant to the war. That always happened but that’s what the ladies did. They cleaned. My father was made to work somewhere because just at that time when the Germans came in he’d become sort of redundant because of the slump because by that time you know you had the big malaise and he was, was set to work in fields because I know this because the Germans loaded them up on trucks and ran ’em to the fields somewhere and gave them jobs to do. I spent the whole day there. I had a fishing rod and stayed there all day and had a marvellous time. Excellent time. And the Germans stood guard armed over these elderly Dutch workers. So I don’t know what he did. I never went to look. I don’t know if I’d have been allowed to get any nearer. Perhaps I was as near as I could get but they will have been building bunkers or tank, tank stops, tank – I don’t know. And really on the whole therefore we didn’t have an awful lot to do with them. I would, I was involved in taking an illegal paper. Now illegal papers were serious business and the Germans here again would kill people. Because they wanted, at all costs I think they knew the punishment was out of step with the offence but they knew that it had to be stopped at source because the illegal papers told people things they didn’t want you to know. There was, the only news I know we had was a news cinema in town. For a little while we had the radios and that already very quickly turned into propaganda medium. Let’s not be mistaken about this all the time everywhere but the when the Germans said that over the front at this point the German forces have carried out tactful for retreat for the good of the war and therefore be in a better position. No. They had been beaten and they had been beaten back but you didn’t know that and you didn’t know what you could believe and what you could not believe. We thought even the illegal newspapers were written with a view to bolstering morale of the readers and could have been prettified but we chose not to believe that because we wanted to to hear the best and therefore well anyway one day I had to take it to the next person to read it. It was after curfew. We were lived in a quiet street and there would rarely be anybody around in the daytime and at night. It was absolutely empty. So I had to take the illegal paper over the road. I came downstairs singing and dancing because I could do the stairs in the pitch black. Knew exactly where everything was no problem. I got out of the front door. It was a moonless night. No light whatsoever. Street lights had long gone. I stepped out and I suddenly became aware that there was somebody and I could just about having got close, too close see that it was a uniform and I thought, “Oh my God what do I do?” I thought go straight on. Make out that it’s nothing so I skipped on and went over the road. I had my latchkey, the latchkey ready. I threw the latchkey in to the lock, opened it and shut the door behind me and stood with my heart beating cause if I’d gone back they would have hurt my parents if I’d gone forward the other people could have been but they could have denied all knowledge and could have said, I just fled. So that is what I did. Later on I learned it was actually a navy man and the navy wouldn’t have had anything to, to, no axes to grind, you know what I mean. That was one little event. Another little event was we had to walk everywhere because there were no longer any trams. There was were few buses in Amsterdam anyway but they weren’t there. No trams, no buses. All you could do was bikes and I’ve said something about that. Or walk. And we walked everywhere. I had an aunt who lived about two hours walking north of Amsterdam beyond the harbour. And I remember walking there and a couple of my mates came with me. We did that a lot. You could go anywhere with your mates and come in. And there was little tiny boat probably a mine dredger or something in the harbour and kids were selling a little puppy dog for half a loaf, half a German loaf. German loaf of course is quite a brick you know. They weren’t very good. On the same walk having arrived on the other side of the harbour we walked on and there was a lot of shouting and running about. We saw that a group of people was attacking a baker. He was delivering bread. That was common. That was ordinary at the time. There is nothing new under the sun is there? These deliveries from supermarkets well they were already delivering bread by cart from the bakers and as the man had arrived at his destination house and had rung the bell he’d left the hood up and there was a big cover on it, a hard cover and the people were in it, robbing him of his bread. And he ran back oh six foot of it and slammed the cover down and I remember that one loaf had spilled out from it from under the cover under the cart and I was well inclined to go and pick it up and have it but it was gone before I could even begin to make ground and it was one of those well one and a half inch high loaves because there was no yeast. There was no yeast. There was no salt. The flour was course and hadn’t really been strained or [unclear] or whatever you do. That was, that was why the bread was as it was. What we did do and did a better job of it if we got the opportunity we went into the countryside when they were harvesting and we walked behind the err what do you call it, the machine, the big machine
MC: Combine harvester?
DB: The combine yeah. We walked we used to walk behind the combines. No I’m lying we didn’t have the combines. It was a scythes job.
MC: Yeah.
DB: Remember that?
MC: Yeah.
DB: When they would be scything, the farmers would be scything and there would be somehow, there would be ears of grain on the floor. I don’t know how they got removed from the stalks but they were like the ears and from the bundles you know the sheaves and those we were allowed to pick up and put in bags and there was usually a German soldier stood in the field but they didn’t fuss with that. A field is a big thing to cover and they didn’t have that many people on hand. If, if they, if they’d done anything like shoot at people it would have been very difficult for them to keep control over all the people that were there. I don’t think they would have been too keen.
Right. Well I would hardly say this is all but I’ve?
MC: So you mentioned about the, you heard, used to hear the bombers going over. Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about that
DB: Right well at night and remember about the curfew we would go to bed early and in the dark I remember it always dark pitch all the time. In the dark you would lie listening and listen with the certain knowledge of what you were going to hear. There was no traffic. There were no cars, no buses, no trams. There were no planes of course. There wouldn’t have been any bicycles without tyres at that time of night. But what you would hear and there was some magic about it you would hear planes and the planes you would hear you wouldn’t hear the beginning of. You would, you could never say it’s started because it was either there or it wasn’t there. They, that merged into the silence so thinly because it was so far away that you couldn’t make it out. Not until there were more of ‘em and they were nearer and then you would hear the anti-aircraft guns and the anti-aircraft gun would at first, in the early stages they would be busy. You know the lights would be crossing the skies quite wildly it seemed. Sometimes they would pick one out and let’s say it was a Lancaster it would just go off and the aircraft gunners would aim at it but it would be too high. They would be invariably be too high and it would just go on. They wouldn’t lose it whether they, whether because of the aircraft moving them not being good enough to hold on to. Not that easy I think but they would lose it then and through the night you would hear that distant drone and you would know that it was power, powerful drone excuse me power, powerful drone because one aircraft would not have made that particular noise. It was the numbers that made the difference. And when you were in your bed alive [?] to it and that being the only sound you heard it had a big significance. You knew that this mattered, it mattered to our good because it was the only bit of war effort that we witnessed and it happened to the German’s detriment. That’s the other thing that would make it good. And they would drone over and over and over and we would normally not hear the end of it. Hard enough to do but by that time we would be asleep and then sometimes we would hear an aircraft. Normally a single, an aircraft come over low and land. Low and very loud. Not like the drone. Not power or anything. It would probably have been it and it would come over low and just miss the tops of the houses or steeples or whatever and it would be on its way back and you would know that there would be people sitting in there – four, five, ten, I don’t know. And they would be in danger. And they might die. And they would go over and go towards the west. They would soon be over the sea and they would all be sitting in there praying that it would stay up. That it would make it to Norfolk, Suffolk you know. The first stops. Not Lincolnshire I don’t think because that would make it such a wider angle. It would be farther to fly. We don’t know whether we ever heard one that went down. We don’t know whether we ever hear one that put down safely you know. That, that was a very relevant sort of noise [unclear]. It sort of, of course when the war ended we were in a bad way. In Amsterdam in particular because we were above a certain line. I don’t need to go in to this here but the Germans had perforated the dykes so the water had come in and much of Holland is below sea level so a lot of area had been inundated err the food [?]still could come to us very easily but somehow somewhere an agreement was reached for the allies to drop food. Now there will have been a lot of people who knew detail of that you know. The underground resistance workers. We didn’t. It wasn’t for us to know but what we did know is that one day we heard an aircraft as loud as we ever have heard one and only feet high. Came over, we could see the members of the crew and we were waving whatever we got. They were waving. We were cheering. You could hear the cheering over everything [short pause]and that was marvellous. They had dropped food and they were on their way back. They were waving to us. People were on the rooves especially where they were flat and they were waving with sheets and towels and flags. You weren’t supposed to have flags. And everything and the big thing of it was we knew it was true. Now it was true. We were liberated. It was, was enormous. And that is why it is so big in Holland.
MC: So when did you get access to the food? Did they bring it?
DB: That was, that was out of our scope. That wasn’t for us. There were authorities and the authorities took it and they were our authorities. Dutch. And they did it proper but don’t forget they didn’t throw down bread loaves they throw down flour. Threw down flour and that had to be collected, baked and the, the bread which came almost overnight which was so good. Was white. We didn’t believe that you could have white bread like that. It was white and it was high. It stood like that. We couldn’t believe that either. And then we got food at school. They provided food through the schools so that the kids could have food and well that, if you like, was it. That was almost the very last act of the war. The Germans had had enough and you can’t blame ’em. The Germans who were there had had enough and they set off walking. They walked. You see Holland is not a big country as you well know and I think it would still probably take three days to cross it on foot you know. But they set off, they set off walking home. Oh and the edge of Amsterdam was a pile and each German solder threw on it a bayonet, his gun, his rifle whatever he had. All his arms and that pile was growing all the time. We looked at it jealously because us kids you know, thought marvellous I’m going to pinch one of them but you didn’t get that chance. I suppose if I remember correctly it was the underground that guarded it, people of the resistance and, and that was, and there was only one other thing an account that the war was over. Germany had capitulated. On the corner of the Dam Square in Amsterdam where the palace is is a principal hotel and the German officers used it and they thought it would be fun. All the people had come out again. It was lively on the Dam Square lots of people walking and being merry and they thought it would be fun to aim their sub machine guns on it and start rattling and they killed a number of Dutch people on the square after the war had ended.
[tape stops]
MC: So the Dutch railways?
DB: This is running?
MC: Yes, yeah just
DB: The Germans had left the Dutch to run the Dutch railways but they made diligent use of it. They used it for freight of all sorts, armaments perhaps. I do not know. And personnel. And when it got a bit further in to the war and the underground was thinking what more could we do to help here, a difficult organisation you must understand they decided to encourage the Dutch railwaymen to go on strike and that would just throw down the Dutch railways bang [we won[?]. And I don’t know how they achieved it but they did it and the Germans were a bit, very upset about and very much crossed their line of approach, their system. And for one thing they, they did kill a number of railwaymen for the reason, for that reason and they tried to find more all the time and there were those who were just at home. My uncle was a railwayman and he and his wife also were harbouring a Jewish woman. But in the first place they had got a one escapee or what shall we call them? A person who avoids the German occupation but, or, or imprisonment but she would have gone to the camps. Well they had the one lady had a position in the eaves in case of danger. That was the Jewish woman. And when they did in fact come and they did of course they had personnel records so they could go straight to the addresses of the people who hadn’t turned up and they came to look for railwaymen and there my aunt was hiding this Jewish woman but they got her into the eaves somehow in time but there was very little time to do anything about my uncle. Well in Holland we have the custom of every day taking off the bedclothes and airing them over a chair or something so she forced my uncle on the chair because she was a very quick witted woman. She forced my uncle on a chair next to the bed and threw the bedclothes over him. There is a version of this story that the Germans came through the house all right. Never got anywhere near this Jewish woman but when one of the Germans looked and my aunt looked at him she saw him look at the pair of shoes appearing from underneath the bedclothes and she then believes that he thought, ‘no, leave them be’. Not all Germans were of course bad. I believe that they with the war being over we, you know they wish they had been. I know that I was later in Switzerland of all places and I was on an outlook post in a in a Swiss forest and there was another chap on the top there and we got talking and he asked what nationality I was and I said I was Dutch and he shrunk, he visibly shrunk and he said, “You must hate me”. You know there were good people. Not that many.
MC: So after the war you stayed in Holland?
DB: I stayed in Holland. I did a job and um but not immediately of course and actually it is a bit relevant. We had people doing health checks and a lot of us who had been hungry in the war we were underweight. And if you were underweight there was a system whereby Danish, Swedish, I think Swiss families had opened up to Dutch kids to put some weight on again and I was chosen to go to Denmark which I well enjoyed by the thought of it. That would be good for me to see this country. It would an adventure and everything and I was well keen to go but not all that long before the travel time it was full and I couldn’t go. Well that wasn’t good at all because I had to have my end exams, my final examinations from school at that time but with the prospect of going away my head teacher said he’d prepare me one on the basis of my schoolwork which would have been considerably better than than the exam so I was happy and now I had go again. So I locked myself up to study and then I got a place in England. I got a place in Lincoln. So at the late hour I was taken to a place called Woodlands near Doncaster which was an, I think an RAF base. May have been an army base and we slept in Nissan huts and I spent six weeks in Nissan huts and eight weeks with family.
MC: And how old were you at that time?
DB: Fourteen I believe and the people that had the honour of having, receiving me, for getting me were the parents of my wife. Can you imagine, I often think of this, somewhere in Amsterdam in an unknown place sits an unknown person who says who have you got down for Denmark? Oh no, no they’re full. At that moment my life changes. I don’t know that. I will never know the, and then somebody says there are a few places left in England. And that’s when my life changes, changes again. And even the, it even chooses my wife. So the war has got something to answer for don’t you think?
MC: Absolutely yeah yeah it can change your life yes. So after, after that you just stayed in Lincoln?
DB: I worked in Holland at the savings bank, the Holland Steamship Company that sailed to Falmouth and Fowey and Manchester and Liverpool and London and I got some free, free sails, sailings with and I then worked at my uncle’s who had a factory in [unclear] in a small metalwork. I then worked for an importer no I worked yeah, yeah importer, exporter of chemicals and aromas and I worked somewhere else, I can’t remember now. I mentioned I also did administration for a small dealer in household objects. Anyway I came back from time to time to – just because I liked it to be honest. I liked to do it and to come here and I had certain opportunities and I once or twice came to my then still foster parents unannounced and they put me up sweet as anything no problem. Then they came once or twice to Holland. Then Mavis came to Holland once - no with a friend and I just grew in the normal way that things grew and that really became the end. Now let’s see if there’s anything there must be something left. I had a feeling that there was something significant yet to tell you. No I can’t, I can’t think. I’ve certainly gone over all the major things that I have to tell you. It’s - unless you have any questions that -
MC: No.
DB: No my brother was the same age that I have referred, have I, have I referred to him
MC: [unclear]
DB: My brother in law but yes he was my brother in law was deported to Germany as a, as a worker. He could drive car which very few people could and he drove cars and buses in Germany of labourers or workers from their lodgings to the factories. Now my brother was the same age group but he didn’t have to go because he’d been working in the horticultural industry and his boss had quicky diverted to vegetable growth, growing veggies and he became a protected worker thereby. My sisters. My younger sister worked what that was commonly, in service and my older sister in the clothing industry and did well after the war and went to America and had a small department in a patterns factory in in New York. A company called Simplicity.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dirk Bosch
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
Dirk Bosch was eight years old when the German army occupied his home town of Amsterdam. In this interview he describes what life was like for him during this time. He refers to seeing Dutch Jews rounded up and deported. He describes the hunger of the time and the effort to find food by travelling to the countryside and hoping for help from the farmers. He also speaks about the dangers he faced while taking illegal newspapers to a neighbour. He describes the sound of the Lancaster bomber aircraft flying overhead at night. He also describes Operation Manna.
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-30
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:16:00 audio recording
Identifier
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ABoschD150730
Spatial Coverage
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Netherlands--Amsterdam
Netherlands
Language
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eng
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
1945
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
Holocaust
home front
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/45/Memoro 1818.1.mp3
b81e0809df6c01896f1b8dc7c66c89a2
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MTB: [part missing in the original file] Una cosa tragica. Una cosa tragica. Tre ore, in continuazione, sotto le bombe. Una cosa spaventosa. Tre ore. Arrivavano da Grottaferrata gli aerei e si dirigevano in questa maniera verso il centro di Frascati. Da Grottaferrata, così, verso il centro di Frascati. E dove aveva finito quel gruppo di aerei e iniziava quell’altro, quindi che tu avevi bombardato fino a qui e quell’altro da qui e andavano avanti. Quell’altri da li e andavano avanti, fino a che non sono arrivati fino a qua. Allora, l’allarme c’è stato ma immediatamente è [pause] iniziato il bombardamento, so’ arrivati gli aerei. C’è stato l’allarme, però i tedeschi che stavano li lo sapevano, perche mio zio Amadei che aveva il negozio di panificio, un tedesco gli disse: “Signor Amadei, domani stia attento che è una brutta giornata”. Infatti mio zio poi è rimasto sotto il negozio ed è stato poi dai [pause] pompieri, da della gente che ha cercato di salvare persone, salvato e portato a Roma all’ospedale. [part missing in the original file]
MTB: No, i rifugi sai cos'erano, erano le cantine, erano le cantine. I rifugi non c'è n'erano. Se lei pensa che come rifugio c'avevamo [pause] Quindi c'erano questi villini, c'era un viale, e i villini, uno di qua e uno di qua, in fondo al viale hanno scavato e sono andati giù un du’ metri, tre metri. Ecco come stavamo ricoverati. Che se ci prendeva la bomba in pieno non ce trovavano nemmeno un capello. Non trovavano niente, non trovavano.
Unknow interviewer: È morta molta gente a Frascati?
Si. Molta gente. Moltissima, famiglie sane. Anche perché appunto non c'erano i ricoveri e c'erano queste cantine, questi tinelli. E la gente andava nel tinello, nella cantina del tinello. Eh [pause], se, ma [pause] Guardi che hanno fatto a pulire, mo’ [pause] Tra parentesi i tedeschi stavano a Frascati, c'era Kesserling, ma le batterie hanno sparato. Una in piazza Mazzini è saltata per aria, quelle di palazzo Moroni hanno sparato fino a un certo punto, poi dopo vista la brutta non hanno sparato più, e a villa Torlonia c'erano altre batterie, eravamo circondati dalle batterie. Hanno sparato ma questi hanno fatto a pulire tre ore senza misericordia. Tre ore senza misericordia. Quindi hanno cotto dappertutto. Chi se’ salvato po’ dirse fortunato. Dopo de questo.. Infatti quando siamo usciti dal ricovero di questi villini, questi di questa parte, quelli che davano verso Grottaferrata, erano andati tutti distrutti meno il nostro che era distrutto dietro e davanti no. Tanto che mia madre uscendo e ritornando su dal ricovero fa: "Uh, hanno aperto la porta de’ casa ma io l'ho chiusa”. Capirai! I pompieri gli han detto: “Signora, troppa roba se è aperta”. Capirai. Nun c'era più niente era saltata per aria tutto.
Ma c'era una sensazione strana. Una sensazione strana. Forse la paura maggiore è stata perchè tutti pregavano e: "Santa maria madre di Dio [screams loudly] Questo scatto che c’era man mano che sentivi che il botto era più vicino, ecco quello ti metteva l'angoscia, la paura.
UI: Com'e stato essere bambini in tempo di guerra?
MTB Ma non c'era niente. Cioè non c'era niente. C'era la tessera per il pane. Eh, noi - ringraziando Iddio - il pane lo abbiamo sempre un po’ avuto dal momento che mio zio c'aveva il negozio di panificio e allora con la tessera ti davano i due etti. Se poi erano due etti e mezzo lasciava correre. Tutto li, sennò non c'era niente. Non c'erano dolci, non c’erano cioccolate, non c'era niente di niente.
UI: Pero c'erano le verdure e la frutta.
MTB: Sì, le verdure e la frutta. Questo si, moltissimo anche perche’ in turno [pause]. Adesso anche se Frascati sta diventando un cemento completo e siamo ossessionati dall'avanzata del cemento da Roma verso Frascati. Infatti non siamo più un paese, siamo una borgata. Vere peggio, forse. Allora no, allora cioè che era frutta e verdura era una cosa favolosa. Una cosa favolosa.
UI: La carne?
MTB: Sì, sì c'era la carne. Sì, carne, pollo, sì questa roba c'era.
UI: E la scuola?
MTB: Eh la scuola, la scuola subito dalle suore io so’ andata [pause] Alle scuole comunali che si [part missing in the original file]
MTB: Il giorno dell'otto settembre mio padre era impiegato alla camera dei deputati e venne chiamato dal direttore della Camera e gli disse "Boazzelli, devo dirle con dispiacere che c'è stato un bombardamento fortissimo a Frascati. Lei vada subito e vada a vedere la sua famiglia. E lui ha dovuto litiga’ coi tedeschi perchè non c'erano mezzi ed ha dovuto sali’ per forza su un camion tedesco. E siccome lui aveva fatto la guerra ed era stato preso prigioniero nella guerra ‘15-18 degli Austriaci. Quindi non era molto tenero. Non hanno [pause] Si vede che l'anno visto che s'era tutto arrabbiato e l'hanno sceso qui vicino all'ospedale col.. E quindi è arrivato a casa ed ha trovato tutto quanto così ed ha detto "Beh, cercate d'anda’ via, cercate d'anda’ a Roma". E però non c'erano mezzi. Era saltato per aria tutto. E quindi co [pause] a piedi siamo arrivati vicino Morena, giù Ciampino [pause]. A piedi. E per trovà un mezzo che ce’ portasse a Roma da un fratello di mio padre che abitava a Roma. Mio padre è rimasto li perché durante la notte c'è stato il sacallaggio [sic] della gente molto per bene che andava a ruba’ dentro le case. E quindi [pause] Ebbè, è normale, non è che sia normale. E noi siamo andati a Roma. Poi dopo ci ha raggiunto, quando non c'era nulla da fare che aveva cercato di sistemare un po’ de cose mio padre [pause] è venuto a Roma pure lui, e abitavamo tra Porta Pia e piazza Fiume, via Pagliari. Ecco abitavamo li. Infatti quando sono entrati gli Americani [pause] gli Americani sono entrati per cosa, come si chiama [part missing in the original file]
MTB: Mah, sa. È stata tutta una cosa, praticamente, che, di liberazione. Ecco perché tutta gente che arrivano, che c'è liberano. C'e danno da mangiare, c'e danno,cioè tutti liberi. Cominciava, sa, si, come c'erano gli Americani [pause]Non esisteva più il re. Perché giustamente il re, molto intelligentemente, mentre noi stavamo sotto a bombe lui scappava pe’ 'ndarsene in Egitto e compagnia bella. E quando siamo andati noi all'ospedale Fatebenefratelli a trovare mio zio Amadei che era rimasto li sotto il negozio c'erano un sacco di ragazzi giovani di 18-20 anni che avevano combattuto qui a Porta?
UI: San Paolo
MTB: A porta San Paolo, e vicino a mio zio c’era un ragazzo che c’aveva avuto 18-19 anni co' a pancia squarciata, e che chiamava la madre. E allora mia madre si avvicinò li a salutarlo, a accarezzarlo, na' cosa e n’altra. Queste sono i ricordi da bambina di momenti particolari. E infatti io quando sento nominare Casa Savoia vado un po’ in bestia, perche io capisco che lui voleva salvare il figlio e faceva bene a mandarlo via, ma che andasse via lui no, e rimanesse a vede’ quello che succedeva, de trattala meio. [part missing in the original file]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maria Teresa Boazzelli
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Maria Teresa Boazzelli describes the bombing of Frascati on 8 September 1943 and provides an account of life inside an improvised shelter: people praying and screaming after explosions. She explains how the Germans had been expecting the bombing and had sent a covert warning to her uncle. In the aftermath of the bombing, she describes the experience of finding her home partially destroyed and their subsequent journey to Rome on foot. Maria also provides recollections of daily life in Frascati during the war and describes the aftermath of the Battle of Porta San Paolo in the context of the fall of the Fascist regime. She also talks about her feelings regarding King Victor Emmanuel’s escape from Rome.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:09:02 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Rome
Italy--Frascati
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-08
1943-09-08
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#1818
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/46/MemoroDE 14947.1.mp3
b9a1d1a023b500101b49561eb5b9c0a9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Am 7, am 7. Oktober wurde ja Dresden ‘s erste Mal bombardiert, und ich hatte eigenartige Weise an dem Tag irgendwie Angst und meine Mutti sagte “ach ich schäle jetzt noch Kartoffeln weil wenn Vollalarm, nach’m Vollalarm können wir ja wieder hoch”. Und ich ging da mit meinem Bruder runter und traf unten einen Jungen aus unserem Haus, der genauso alt war wie ich, also zehn Jahre, und sagte, “Du geh doch bitte mit in Keller, ich hab heute irgendwie so Angst”, und da sagte er “nein das darf ich nicht, ich muss zu meiner Oma und zu meinem kleinen Baby Schwesterchen” und ich hab wirklich gekämpf, wie um sein Leben, “bitte geh doch mit und so weiter, dann lass Dich halt mal von Deiner Oma schimpfen, aber Du gehst jetzt mit”, “nein, ich darf des nicht”. Und der Junge ist dann leider auch ums Leben gekommen, weil er hinterher mir dann Vorwürfe gemacht hat, hätte ich ihn mir dort fester angehalten. Als dann dieser fürchterliche Brand, ne Sprengbombe war’s, in die vierstöckingen Haüser runterkam, war erstensmal ein fürcherlicher Staub, trotzdem kam Staub rein, und dann hiess es, also über den Schutthaufen können wir nicht gehen, vor allem nicht wir Kinder, da gab’s Durch, einen Durchbruch, aus Ziegelsteinen nehme ich an, und da war, war daneben gestanden eine Riesen Wanne, das musste immer der Schutz, dass musste der Schutzwart musste immer hinstellen mit frischem Wasser, und Hacken [?] und Beile zum durchschlagen, und wir mussten auch alle immer ein [sic] Bademantel dabei haben, oder ein Handtuch, damit wir dann den Staub weghalten konnten von unserer [sic] Mund und Nase. Und dann sind wir durch den Durchbruch, es war also ganz komisches Gefühl, in ‘ne fremdes Haus und dann noch einmal durch in Durchbruch und dann kam man auf eine ganz anderen Strassenseite, kam man dann raus und wir liefen dann nach Dresden Neustadt und meine Mutti hatte den Bademantel an und ich hab mich geschämt und sagte “zieh doch den Mantel aus, was sollen den die Leute denken am, am, am Sonnabend Mittags mit Bademantel” und meine Mutti sagte “ist mir alles gleich, Hauptsache weg, Hauptsache weg von Dresden”. Und, und ganz eigenartig ist, was ich auch noch manchmal überleg, meine Enkelin, die ist auch am 7. Oktober geboren, 1990, und da dachte ich mir, eigentlich, wenn’s, wenn’s nach meiner Mutti gegangen wär, waren wir ja gar nicht in Keller, wäre ich eigentlich auch da gestorben, am 7. Oktober. Und da haben wir eben erst vor kurzem wieder debattiert, eigenartig, 7. Oktober.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gerda Gentner
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:03:08 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#14947
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Gerda Gentner (b. 1934) recalls the first bombing of Dresden on 7 October 1944. Gerda describes how she unsuccessfully tried to persuade a young boy to take shelter with her in the basement and reminisces her feeling when she knew that he had died as result of his determination not to abandon his grandmother. Recollects the explosion of a bomb which shattered the house and describes how she and his mother emerged in city changed beyond recognition, still wrapped in bath robes used to protect from dust. Emphasises the coincidence of her granddaughter being born the same day.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nikolai C C Schulz
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/49/Memoro 10169.1.mp3
fab50146aa4a614d17bcaebd9df4dd67
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Agnes Stocker: 5. März 1945, hiess es, die Russen werden, kommen näher und wollten die Insel einnehmen. Sie kamen aber momentan nicht über die Dievenow und wir wurden gezwungen, am 5. März alle die Stadt zu verlassen. Wir waren, wurden also evakuiert, mussten uns eine andere Bleibe suchen. Und dann sind wir am 5. März abends auf die Chaussee; und es waren ungefähr bis Swinemünde, bis zum nächsten großen Hindernis, das war die Peene, die wir überqueren müssten, nein die Swine, Entschuldigung, die Swine, die wir überqueren mussten, und die wurde nur mit Schiffen, mit Booten konnten wir übersetzen, dass dauerte natürlich. Und da ist die Stadt, praktisch also wir haben glaub ich nur einen Kilometer in einer Stunde fahren können, war vollkommen verstopft. Und da hat meine Mutter gesagt, nein, sie hat einen Bruder in Kalkofen, das war auf der Strecke, da sind wir abgebogen, dass heisst nicht mit dem Treck, den wollten wir ja mitnehmen, damit ist mein Burder, eine Cousine und meine Schwester, sind bei dem Treck geblieben, wir hatten einen Treck uns gemacht, wo wir auch noch meinen Grossvater mitgenommen haben, der lebte bei seinem Sohn in Hagen. Und ja der ist mit uns dann nach Kalkofen und da hat mein Onkel dafür gesorgt, dass wir mit Booten über das Haff rausfahren konnten nach Ueckermünde. Und in Ueckermünde waren dann wir erst mal ein paar Tage in Kalkofen und dann sind wir rausgekommen und dann haben wir in Ueckermünde auf ein Schiff gewartet damit es, damit wir weiterhin übersetzen konnten, wir wollten nach Neukalen in Mecklenburg. Und das war ein Ort, wo meine Tante aufgewachsen ist und die hatte dort Verwandte und das war unser Ziel. Und am zwölften März war der grosse Angriff auf Swinemünde. Ein grosser Bombenangriff auf Swinemünde Mittags um zwölf. Und da ist, nach den Bombenangriffen, und meine Schwester, also unsere Schwester, und unser Bruder und diese Cousine waren zu der Zeit gerade in Swinemünde. Die sind übergesetzt, die haben so lange gebraucht und die waren gerade in Swinemünde. Und meine Mutter, meine Tante und ich, wir haben in Ueckermünde, das ist Luftlinien-mäßig vielleicht zehn Kilometer weg, und da haben wir das alles mit ansehen müssen, wie viele Bomben gefallen sind undosweiter, und wie die Tiefflieger angekommen sind. Jedenfalls haben wir gedacht das gibt es nicht, das wir, das die drei wenn sie noch in Swinemünde wären, mit den Treck rauskommen. Meine Mutter war restlos fertig, Tante Emi war restlos fertig und ich auch, das haben wir unmittelbar mitterlebt. Die Toten die es dann gab, da ist extra ein Friedhof, das ist der Golm gewesen, also ist auch heute noch der Golm, so eine kleine Bergkupel und da sind, ist ein Friedhof eingerichtet worden, und der war, der ist mit 25000 Toten. Man sprach immer von Dresden, glaub ich, der grösste Luftangriff, aber da waren es noch mehr, so viele Menschen gestorben, die man nicht registriert hat, durch die Flüchtligen, die per Booten über die Ostsee von oben, von der ganzen Küste angekommen sind und, ja, das waren 25000 Tote. Und wir haben dann noch gewartet, ätliche Tage, und auf einmal standen alle drei gesund vor uns, und der Wagen war auch unbeschädigt und die zwei Pferde waren auch unbeschädigt. Sie haben so ein grosses Glück gehabt und sind gut angekommen in Neukalen. Aber da haben wir nur eine Weile gelebt. Wir sind da untergekommen bei Verwandten undsoweiter. Und dann hiess es, die Russen sind über die Dievenow und in Anmarsch. Mussten wir also wieder weg, wir wollten also gen Westen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Agnes Stocker
Description
An account of the resource
Agnes Stocker (b. 1932) recounts her evacuation from her hometown and the journey to Ueckermünde. Agnes tells how she get separated from her sister, her brother and her cousin (who followed the road to Swinemünde), while she, her mother and her aunt first took refuge at Kalkofen and then took a boat to Ueckermünde. Describes the Swinemünde bombing as seen from Ueckermünde - recalls aircraft strafing, emphasises 25000 casualties and compares this operation to the bombing of Dresden. Agnes explains how the high death toll was due to the number of refugees who had fled from the East coast of the Baltic Sea by boat. She recalls how her sister, her brother and her cousin were caught in the city under attack, her anguish at not knowing their fate, and her relief when she eventually reunites with them.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-11-06
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:06:06 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#10169
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Poland
Germany
Poland--Świnoujście
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Ueckermünde
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nikolai C C Schulz
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
displaced person
evacuation
home front
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/50/Memoro 1031.2.mp3
88b700827a065365bf7920cc4a244493
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Brigitte Terboven: Ja, es war im Mai 44. In dieser Nacht mussten wir wieder mal, wie so oft, jede Nacht mussten wir ja raus, weil es Fliegeralarm gab, nicht nur tagsüber sondern insbesondere nachts kamen die Fliegeralarmen, die Bombergeschwader und flogen über uns weg, irgendwohin und in dieser Nacht war ein Angriff auf Essen. Das Ziel war eben die Stadt Essen, das Ruhrgebiet überhaupt. Ein Britischer, wie es hiess, Bomberverband kam und die in der nähe gelegene Flakbatterie durfte nicht schiessen, so hiess es später, weil Deutsche Nachtjäger in der Luft waren, nicht, da hätte ja dann möglicherweise ein Nachtjäger getroffen werden können. Ein Nachtjäger verfolgte einen Britischen Bomber und der, um schneller weg zu kommen, warf eine Luftmine einfach irgendwo runter und die kam 20 meter neben meinem Elternhaus nieder und das ganze Haus fiel zusammen wie ein Kartenhaus. Die Kellerdecke blieb zwar erhalten, aber in dieser Nacht war niemand von uns im Keller. Wir waren auf dem Wege in den Keller aber das war auch alles. Es sind vier Personen, meine Mutter, ein Ehepaar aus der Nachbarschaft und die Frau des Hauptmans dieser Flakbatterie ums Leben gekommen. Mich hat man rausgeholt. Ich soll, ich weiss es nicht mehr genau, ich war ja 14 Jahre alt, nach meiner Mutter gerufen haben, weil ich merkte, ich liege, aber ich liege nicht im Bett, ich liege, ich bin furchtbar eng, das weiss ich noch, und ich schmecke, ich habe Sand im Mund, oder Dreck, oder irgendwas, das habe ich gemerkt, das ist meine unmittelbare Erinnerung, und dann bin ich bewusstlos geworden und erst am nächsten Vormittag im Krankenhaus wieder zu mir gekommen. Und es hatt mich schon sehr gewundert dass mein Onkel, der Bruder meiner Mutter, im Verlauf des Vormittags kam, aber es gibt ja Zufälle im Leben und ich habe da nicht weiter drüber nachgedacht. Man hat mir die ersten acht Tage nicht sagen dürfen, das meine Mutter ums Leben gekommen war weil ich so schwer verletzt war, so das man nicht wusste, ob ich überhaupt überlebe.
Mein Vater war, wie gesagt, eingezogen und man kannte nur seine Feldpostnummer und hat an diese Feldpostnummer ein Telegramm geschickt, was er aber nicht bekommen hat. Mein Bruder war Luftwaffenhelfer, den hat ein Lehrer unserer Schule freundlicherweise geholt, als er erfuhr, was passiert war. Und mein Vater kam eine Woche später, da hätte meine Mutter Geburtstag gehabt, ihren 47sten, da hatte er es geschaft Urlaub zu bekommen und er kam, er stieg in Wuppertal in die Strassenbahn, damals fuhr noch eine Strassenbahn nach Cronenberg hoch, und traf einen Bekannten, der ihn kondolierte und mein Vater wusste überhaupt nicht, warum und weshalb und das war natürlich entsetzlich für meinen Vater. Mein Vater erst hat mir dann gesagt was wirklich passiert war. Mein Bruder hatte mich schon einige Tage vorher im Krankenhaus besucht. Als Luftwaffenhelfer trug er ja diese Hakenkreuzbinde mit, die rot-weiße Binde mit einem Hakenkreuz drauf, und auf dieser Binde hatte er einen Trauerflor, auch eine schwarze Binde. Und ich fragte ihn, “warum hast Du das schwarze Ding da drauf”, und er sagte, “damit es nicht dreckig wird”, so ganz beilaüfig, und sprach dann schnell von was anderem und ich habe ihm geglaubt. So naiv war man und man wehrte sich ja auch gegen tragische Erkenntnisse. Es war, das Leben war bedrolich, das wussten wir alle. Wir hatten kaum was zu essen, wir hatten im Wuppertal, als die Amerikaner dann ein Jahr später kamen, wären 1200 Kalorien pro Tag im Ruhrgebiet an Nahrungsmitteln auf den Lebensmittelkarten auszuteilen gewesen. Im Wuppertal war es besonders schlimm, da gab es nur 600 Kalorien pro Kopf. Und es war eine so schreckliche Zeit, die 44-45, die Zeit, da gab es so viele Tote zu beklagen, nicht nur gefallene Soldaten, sondern auch Bombentote, so das die Todesanzeigen in der Zeitung etwa 6-7 cm im Quadrat gross sein durften, weil einfach der Platz nicht ausreichte in den Zeitungen. Und jeder gefallene Soldat, und jeder Bombentote hatte dieses eiserne Kreuz in der Todesanzeige, links oben, glaub ich, oder rechts oben, das weiss ich jetzt nun nicht mehr, in der Ecke was dieses eiserne Kreuz angebracht. Ich weiss nicht, wie viele Seiten in der Zeitung voll waren mit diesen kleinen Todesanzeigen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Brigitte Terboven
Description
An account of the resource
Brigitte Terboven (b. 1930) recalls the bombing of Essen and the dropping of an air mine by a British bomber which was trying to evade a German night fighter. The bomb hit the ground about 20 meters from her home which collapsed like a house of cards. Remembers the death of four people, including her mother; how she was severely injured, barely survived and kept in the dark about her mother’s death for a week. Describes the attempt to bet in touch with her father with the news of his wife’s death and how he was informed only a week later, coming home on her mother’s birthday. Emphasises wartime hardships: food rationing; daily calories intake dropping from the notional 1200 calories to 600; reduced spaces for obituaries in newspapers.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-09-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:06:25 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#1031
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Luftwaffenhelfer
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/67/Memoro 15496.2.mp3
eb7972ded45a668661f8d92a5ede35eb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Jörg Funfoff: Es ist so. Ich bin Jahrgang 1942, aus dem Sommer und kann im Grunde genommen nichts vom Krieg erinnern, aber da gibt es doch etwas. Das ist mir übrigens erst sehr spät wieder eingefallen und das sind authenthische Momente. Die stammen aber aus dem Frühjahr 1945, ich vermute aus dem Februar, das habe ich mir später erst erklärt. Ich stamme aus einem, aus dem Berliner Norden und wir waren, wir saßen genau in der Einflugschneise der Bomber. In der Dorfbraue [?] von Heiligensee heulte die Sirene auf, aber wir hatten schon so ein Ohr das wir die Bomber schon früher anfliegen hörten. Szene irgendwie Abends was weiss ich, 22 Uhr, meine Eltern gehen ins Bett, die nannten das “wir werden jetzt ins Bett steigen”, das war ein authenthischer Begriff dafür. Ich hatte am Fussende ein Gitterbett, stehe da drin, meine Eltern tauchen also in die Betten ab, und ich stehe und sage “Fieger”. Und mein Vater: “Ach quatsch, der Junge, wat der erzählt”, liegt sich in Bett, meine Mutter aber bleibt stehen, jeht an det Fenster, hebt diese Rolleau zu der Verdunkelung so ein bisschen weg und lauscht und sagt, “der Junge hat recht”. Und das war ein Zeitpunkt, da war ich gerade mal zweieinhalb Jahre alt. Und ich nehme an das ist auch der Grund warum sich das eingeprägt hat. Wir haben die [unclear] gepackt, raus in den Bunker.
Wir hatten einen Erdbunker im Garten. Das war eine halb unterirdische Anlage, aus Erde gebaut. Man ging ungefähr vier Stufen runter, die waren so mit Pflöcken und Ästen gesichert, also richtig Pfadfindermässig sah det aus. Und da konnten auf zwei langen Bänken, das war auch Erdbänke ebenso gesichert, konnten ungefähr fufzehn Personen sassen, da kamen auch die Nachbarn rüber, die hatten ja die, also nach dem man die Flieger hörte, ging dann die Sirene los. Also praktisch hatte ick die Vorinformationen schon. Deswegen war ich glau ick [unclear], hat sich das eingeprägt, der Junge macht wat richtig, war so eine Form von Anerkennung. Runter in den Keller, in diesen Erdbunker, Entschuldigung, und der ist, ein Erdbunker ist halb unterirdisch, oben druber ist eine Ladung von dünnen Stämmen und Ästen und dann Erde draufgeschichtet und dieses Mistding rettet niemandem vor einer Bombe, niemandem. Aber das ist den Vorortbewohnern eben aufgespatzt (?) worden und war teilweise auch Pflicht und manche haben es aus reinem Interesse gebaut, wir hatten sogar auch Helfer dabei soweit, das ist mir aber später erzählt worden. Und nun saß man also da unten und musste genau wie in den anderen Bunker abwarten bis also die Warnung aufhörte.
Und da erinnere ich mich an einen zweiten Punkt, und zwar ist das, eine Oma aus der Nachbarschaft, nämlich Frau Stark, die kam auch immer in diesen Bunker, wie auch andere Nachbarn und die saß da und die hatte sich, so waren die Berliner eben, die hatte sich einen Eimer Wasser mitgebracht, in dem Kartoffeln drin waren. Und die schälte die Kartoffeln während sie da unten saß, machte die wat nützliches. Dat war ja nur eine unproduktive Wartezeit. Und jetzt sah ich als kinderjunge wie die, während sie die Kartoffeln schälte und schnitt, sich eine Scheibe abschnitt und aß. Ich muss geguckt haben wie ein Auto den ich wusste von Zuhause, Kartoffeln ißt man gekocht, die ißt man nicht roh. Ich muss so dusselig geguckt haben dass mir Frau Stark eine von diesen Kartoffelscheiben angeboten hat. Und ich habe dann davon gekostet und dann war so das alle ins Lachen gerieten, auch det erinnere ick weil ich ein so dusseliges Gesicht gemacht haben muss. Det waren so eigentümliche Erfahrungen von einer Bunkersituation und Geborgenheit, in der man sich im Grunde genommen als Kind zu Hause fühlte. Also ich habe nicht diese höllischen Ereignisse der Innerstädte undsoweiter miterlebt, ich bin eben ein Vorort Produkt.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jörg Funfoff
Description
An account of the resource
Jörg Funfoff (b. 1942) recounts the experience of being a young boy at Heiligensee, a Berlin suburb; on the flying path of approaching bombers. Narrates how he was the first to hear the bombers approaching before they are in sight (a fact he was proud of) and the time he spent inside a makeshift shelter dug in the garden and covered with twigs and branches. Emphasises the uselessness of that kind of shelter and mentions an old woman from the neighbourhood who used to sit inside peeling potatoes.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:05:21 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#15496
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/68/Memoro 15628.1.mp3
8c81fb9a1dccb84e06f78347255c9c39
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: Also ich bin Jahrgang 1936. Meine bewussten Kindheitserinnerungen, an die man sich so erinnert, sind eigentlich Kriegszeitenerinnerungen. Als der Krieg begann war ich drei Jahre alt, als er aufhörte war ich etwa neun. Und, ja, das war Alltag. Man konnte sich gar nicht vorstellen das es was anderes, das es eine andere Zeit geben könnte, ohne Bombenalarm, in den Keller runterlaufen, in den Bunker hasten, ohne diese Leuchtspuren am Himmel, ohne Artillerieabwehrfeuer in der Nacht, wecken durch Alarm, schnell noch die Oberkleidung anziehen, denn man schlief ja halb angezogen, das gehörte also zur Überlebensstrategie. [alarm clock goes off] Dann schnappte ich mein kleines Köfferchen, wo ich meine drei, sieben Sachen drin hatte, und einen kleinen Rucksack, Oma, Opa war ja wieder eingezogen, aber nicht als Soldat sondern war bei der SHD, bei der Schutz- und Hilfstruppe, und Oma nahm den schweren Rucksack und wir hasteten zum Bunker, der war ungefähr, fusslaüfig, fast ‘n Kilometer entfernt. Und ich weiss noch eines Nachts, Oma fiel, und Oma konnte allein mit dem schweren Rucksack kam sie nicht richtig hoch, die Leute hasteten vorbei. Ich rief, helft doch der Oma, helft doch der Oma. Es hat so lange gedauert bis dann jemand angehalten hat im Lauf und der Oma aufgeholfen hat, damit wir in den Bunker kamen. Ich hatte einen kleinen Hitler, so aus Pappmaché, angemalt, [showing the puppet’s raised arm] der war abgebrochen, das war für mich damals schon als Kind, als Kind, war das für mich schon ein Verlust. Wurde immer wieder angeklebt, aber fiel immer wieder langsam runter. Symbolisch eine durchaus bedeutsame Geste. Die Fliegerangriffe waren furchtbar. Man saß im Keller als der Barmen Angriff kam. Das werde ich nie im Leben vergessen, Licht ging aus, die Einschläge waren sehr sehr nahe zu hören, das Haus bebte, alle hatten Angst, alle, schrien zum Teil. Die Männer gingen behertzt schon nach oben und guckten, na ist in der Nahe etwas eingeschlagen? aber es war ja Barmen, das erste Wuppertaler Ziel. Das zweite Wuppertaler Angriff auf Elberfeld wo wir wohnten haben wir nicht abgewartet sondern... Ich heisse Schauerte, die Schauertes sind im Sauerland so beheimatet wie Schmidts im Rheinland und wir haben eben auch Verwandte [emphasis] im Sauerland gehabt und zu dem ist meine Mutter die wiederverheiratet war, natürlich direkt nach der Trauung, mein Vater starb als ich einanviertel Jahr alt war an TBC, mein Stiefvater geheiratet, eingezogen, zweimal [emphasis] zum Heimaturlaub gekommen, daraus resultieren meine zwei Halbgeschwister und naturlich beim dritten Urlaub überhaupt nicht mehr wiedergekommen, vermisst. Also meine Mutter mit meinen zwei kleinen Geschwister, meine Oma und ich, wir evakuierten sag ich mal ins Sauerland und haben den Eberfelder Angriff gehört. Unser Haus hat überlebt, aber die Giebelwand zur linke Seite zum Nachbarhaus war völlig weg weil das Haus war also getroffen worden und es war ein Gründerzeit-Mietshaus gewesen, erste Etage wir wohnten, nebenan wohnten Ralenbecks, hatten die andere Zweizimmerwohnung, und die hatten keine, die guckten wenn man die Tür reinging, direkt ins Freie. Nun haben die dann bei uns gewohnt, bis wir aus dem Sauerland dann wiederkamen. Es war eine fürchterliche Zeit, kaum was zu essen, wir konnten aus dem Sauerland immer wieder was mitbringen, Hamsterfahrten, auch nach dem Krieg noch, mit meiner Mutter Hamsterfahrten gemacht. Ich, kleiner Bömsel [?] auch im Rucksack, und dann zu den Verwandten hin. Die Züge heillos überfüllt, heillos überfüllt, auf den Trittbrettern, in den Coupées hinein, auf den Puffern, überall fuhren die Menschen mit. Das war auch hinterher noch, als ich in die Stadtmitte zur Schule musste, mit der Strassenbahn zu fahren, wir sind nur auf den Außenleisten gestanden und haben den Eltern den Platz im Wagen gelassen. Das grösste Erlebnis für mich war, und dann will ich von auch dieser Zeit gar nicht mehr grossartig erzählen wir haben’s ja alle überlebt, mit Aussnahme meines Stiefvaters, war als Deutschland dann schliesslich am 8. Mai kapitulierte und an dem Abend meine Oma mir sagte, „Junge, du kannst dich, kannst ausziehen wenn Du ins Bett gehst, kommt kein Angriff mehr“. Das hab ich nicht glauben wollen. Ich hab mein Leibchen, war ein selbstgestricktes Ding da von der Oma, als Unterzeug, wo man auch an Strapsen die langen Strümpfe dran machen konnte, das war furchtbar, ein Horror für einen Jungen, weil das war fast wie Mädchen und so, aber dies Leibchen lies man natürlich zur Kriegszeiten nachts immer unter. Ich habe der Oma nicht geglaubt, ich hab das Leibchen druntergelassen di ersten Nächte. Dann stellte sich langsam doch der Glaube ein, das diese schlimme Zeit vorüber war.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interviews with Jaun Schauerte
Description
An account of the resource
Jaun Schauerte (b. 1936) recalls rushing to the shelter with a suitcase and a bag pack. Remembers one night when his grandmother fell under the heavy weight of the rucksack and nobody stopped to help her. Recalls the Bremen bombing, while he was inside a shelter; being evacuated to the Sauerland with his relatives; the Elberfeld bombing and how their house survived the attack unscathed. Recounts anecdotes of a small Hitler figure made of papier-mâché; wartime hardships; trips to get supplies and overcrowded trains. Describes the end of wartime precautions on the evening Germany surrendered.
Date
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2016-06-09
Format
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00:07:07 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#15628
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/69/Memoro 4898.1.mp3
afdd3d84544e3c939509e606c40a0a42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MM: „Das ist, am 13. Februar ist meine Mutter, das Haus ist völlig verbrannt, der ganze Block brannte, und meine Mutter, die war grade von der Arbeit gekommen, Spätschicht, und hatte sich nur hingelegt und hatt den ersten Alarm, „alle in den Luftschutzkellern, grosse Angriffe auf Dresden stehen bevor“, haben die durch’s Radio gesagt und da hat sie gedacht, ach ich blieb liegen. Plötzlich war ihr [unclear] als da fällt eine Puppe runter [unclear] bei mir und da wurde sie aufgeschreckt und da ging auch schon das Licht aus und da hat sie die Tasche und den Koffer genommen und ist in den Keller und hat vorher noch mein Konfirmationskleid vom Bügel gerissen wie sie dachte es war aber eine Kunststoffschürze, die hatt sie noch in den Koffer gesteckt und dann in den Luftschutzkeller gegangen und dann, der erste Angriff der hat das Haus nicht beschädicht und da ist meine Mutter noch raufgerannt, hat überall noch die Gardinen abgerissen weil natürlich sämtliche Fenster kaputt waren und die wehten raus zum Fenster, die währen ja auch sofort, wie sie dachten, Brandherde gewesen aber am zweiten, bezeihungsweise am Mitternachtsangriff, um neun war der erste, viertel neun, ist das Haus auch ausgebrannt, da ist vom Hof her auch Phosphor gekommen. Da ist sie raus und an den Elbwiesen entlang zu ihren Elternhaus und ist auch heil angekommen. Allerdings die Stiefel die sie hatte, die hatten Brandlöcher und die eine Tasche, die hat sie weggeworfen. Ja, [background noise] ich war zu der Zeit bei meinen Grosseltern und wie jetzt der Angriff began, man sah den Himmel blutrot, da ist meine Tante, ihre jüngere Schwester, mit mir in die Stadt gegangen, wir sind also rein in die Stadt, und kamen kaum vorwärts, da kamen schon die ersten Flüchtlinge und Ausgebombten, und da war so ein Gedränge das wir einen Umweg gemacht haben und sind dann merkwürdigerweise an einer Schule vorbeigekommen und da sagte jemand: “ihr Haus brennt, aber die Mutti lebt”, die wohnte da in der Nähe. Und dann sind wir da ungekehrt und sind zu den Grosseltern in das Haus gekommen. Und meine Mutter war dann schon da und meine Cousine, sieben Jahre jünger, ich war ja vierzehn, da kam mir entgegen und rief:” [unclear] ist alles verbrannt”, Ja, ist alles verbrannt, “der Puppenwagen auch?” Das war das schlimmste [unclear]“
Memoro DE: „[unclear] Erzählungen was, wie soll ich sagen, was fehlt ist einfach warscheinlich der Geruch auch dieser Brände, die Schreie, warscheinlich viele Tausende Menschen verletzt, verbranntes Fleisch…“
MM: „Furchtbar. Das habe ich alles nicht so mitgekriegt, weil wir am Elbufer gegangen sind und der ganze Feuersturm ist in die Stadt reingezogen, weil ja der Sauerstoff verbraucht war durch die Hitze und da zog das alles in die Stadt rein. Ausserhalb auf den Elbwiesen war es nur rauchig und natürlich hab ich dann um Mittag die Tiefflieger gesehen. Da hab ich mich mit meiner Tante auf die Eisschollen gelegt, war ja Februar, und haben Körper eingezogen und gesehen wie die Tiefflieger über die Elbe geflogen sind und ich, obwohl es alles geleugnet wird, meine doch, das die geschossen haben, es war ein Lärm, und mit Maschinengewehren, warum ja auch nicht, wurden auch Bomben geworfen. Und Jedenfalls sah man auf den anderen Elbufer sah man die Leute die sich hinwarfen. Ob sie nun getroffen waren [?] oder bloss sich auch hinwarfen, jedenfalls die Tiefflieger die hat man ja gesehen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margarete Meyer
Description
An account of the resource
Margarete Meyer (b. 1936) describes the 13 February 1945 Dresden bombing and recounts how her mother reacted to the alarm. She rushed to the shelter and took some belongings, including what she thought was her confirmation dress. Explains how her mother managed to leave the house after the second attack and escaped to the open fields along the river Elbe. Describes how she managed to reunite with her at her grandparent’s house after fleeing along streets, overcrowded with refugees and injured people. Describes how she didn’t experience the firestorm because she was on the Elbe riverbank, where she saw aircraft bombing civilians and people taking cover by throwing themselves onto the ground.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-02-15
Format
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00:04:15 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#4898
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Dresden
Germany
Europe--Elbe River
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
displaced person
home front
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/71/Memoro 1546.2.mp3
3e225be819b1fb48286e50ab5fa2343b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CWB: “Also jetzt geht’s über mein Erlebnis zu der Erinnerung im Luftschutzkeller. Der Luftschutzkeller war ja jahrelang ein Ort, wo man mehr Zeit verbringen konnte als in der eigenen Wohnung und eine ganz besondere Situation über die ich noch nirgendwo im Roman oder in Literatur etwas wirklich adäquat beschreibendes gefunden habe, aber vielleicht gibt’s irgendwo, ich kenn’s noch nicht. Also der Luftschutzkeller ist ein Raum in den man höchst unfreiwillig als Hausgemeinschaft eben getrieben wird durch ein Signal, nämlich die Sirene. Wenn man das nicht befolgt hat man noch mehr Risiko, nämlich in der Wohnung sozusagen von Bomben umgelegt zu werden, aber das Risiko natürlich im Luftschutzkeller ist auch sehr erheblich denn man kann ja verschüttet werden, man muss auf ängstem Raum sogar mit Sauerstoffmangel, muss man da mit Leuten, mit dem [sic] man vielleicht verfeindet ist, Deutschland ist ja das Land der Nachbarschaftsprozesse weltweit führend, zu unser Schande sei es gesagt, zur Schande der Rechthaber und Kleingärtner. Und da ist also im Luftschutzkeller eine besondere Atmosphäre, und ganz generell ist mir schon als Kind aufgefallen, das sich im Krieg die Geister scheiden. Der Krieg ist vielleicht [emphasises] leider nötig, damit die Leute sich entscheiden. Jetzt in diesen Friedenszeiten leben alle so nebenander her und zeigen unsere spitze Ecken und Kanten nicht, aber im Luftschutzkeller kommt eben alles raus, das ist eine Kathartische Situation. Da war ich also gerade dreizehn, den mit dreizehneinhalb kam ich weg aus Berlin im Rahmen der Kinderlandverschickung. Also mit dreizehn Jahren und naturlich mit zwölf schon auch, aber ganz besonders schlimm war es 1943, als nämlich Deutschland die Lufthoheit verlor. Wir hatten kein Öl mehr als Bargut, dass heißt, unsere Flieger, unsere Abwehrflotte wie auch unsere Angriffsflotte waren zwanzig Jahre voraus, das habe ich jetzt in [unclear] gelesen technisch, aber sie konnten nicht mehr starten. Dass heißt, wir haben die Lufthoheit verloren, das war eine ganz bestimmter Tag. Plötzlich konnten die [unclear] ungehindert einfliegen und dann hat dieser Englische Luftmarschall den Befehl gegeben eben, als Vergeltung auf die V-Waffen, die Vergeltung auf die Vergeltungswaffen, nichts mehr zu schonen, dann fing tatsächlich der Terrorkrieg an und ja zu unseren Ungunsten. [part missing in the original file] Also diese Situation des Luftschutzkellers die ist so unvergesslich und hat sich mir so eingeprägt, nun ist ja das Alter von dreizehn Jahren auch eine Prägezeit, es ist ja auch der Beginn der Pubertät, man ist hell wach in jeder Beziehung, weiss noch nicht genau was in der Welt los ist. Wir hatten im Haus auch berühmte Leute, zum Beispiel war da der Feldmarschall Milch, der einzig jüdische General der Deutschen Wehrmacht, der ja von, also der Name ist ja ganz klar Milch, ich habe ihn auch ganz gut gekannt, vom Fahrstuhl und vom Luftschutzkeller, sehr netter Mensch, der war ja derjenige wo Goering dann gesagt hat, “wer Jude ist bestimme ich”, weil Himmler den abschiessen wollte. Es war ja ein erbitterter Kampf zwischen Goering und Himmler. Und im Übrigen war meine Mutter mit der Frau von Goering befreundet weil die Emmy Sonnemann eben eine Schauspielerin war zur Zeit meiner Mutter da waren die Kolleginen. Wir hatten also einen Draht zu Goering, der war aber nicht benutzt, einmal versucht, es ging dann schief. Also im Luftschutzkeller dann haben sich die Geister geschieden, worüber geredet wurde, und es war eine richtige Todesangst da, denn jedes Mahl wenn der Alarm zu Ende war, ging man raus und musste erstmal prüfen ob man verschüttet war und am Schluss war ja auch alles kaput, nur wir kamen noch raus und zum Teil fielen noch Bombensplitter während auch schon Entwarnung war. Und ein Bombensplitter viel mal direkt vor meinem kleinen Bruder, der war damals ein Baby, nieder, und da hatte ich wieder so’n religiöses Erlebniss, also er soll weiterleben, und der lebt ja auch heute noch und ist mein lieber Bruder, [unclear] zwölf Jahre junger in Brüssel. Und in den Keller dann, das hat man mir erzählt, ich erzähle etwas indirekt, was mir viele Leute erzählt haben aber ich habe festgestellt das besonders wenn man etwas Gutes tut, wenn man etwas mit ganz reinem Gewissen tut, was so durch einen hindurchfliesst, und gar nicht im Umweg über’s Gehirn geht, das man das dann vergisst weil es offensichtlich inspiriert ist und man ist in irgendeinen Lebensfluss oder Heilstrom angeschlossen. So war das auch, jedenfalls hat man mir berichtet, das ich reihe um gegangen bin und die Leute getröstet habe, also ganz bedeutende Leute die im Keller dann eben ihre Angst durchbrechen liessen. Und dieses Erlebnis, also diese erzwungene Gemeinschaft, die Leute die nichts gemeinsam haben außer der Adresse und dann diese notdürftig abgestützten luftschutzkeller, die auch nicht viel aushalten und diese Stimmung und das lustigste war noch, wenn die Sirene tönte, am Schluss haben wir uns ja gar nicht mehr ausgezogen, weil es sich nicht lohnte, wir haben uns in Kleidern auf’s Bett gelegt um schneller im Keller zu sein und wenn dann eines Tages mal keine Flieger kamen oder nicht wie damals neun, halb zehn Uhr Abends dann mit den Berliner Witz, haben sich die Leute im Treppenhaus versammelt und haben gesagt: “Ach Jotchen, ach Jotchen, et wird Ihnen doch nischt zujestoßen sein”, nicht, also dass man sich dann noch um die Alliierten sorgt, ob diese Flieger da ankommen. Faszinierend war’s die Scheinwerferkegel, das ist für mich ein Gleichnis der Erkenntnis geworden. Da kamen also die Flugzeuge und ein Scheinwerfer hat den erfasst und wieder verloren und dann hatt man einen Kegel gebildet und der Kegel wurde zum Kreuz und dann konnte das Flugzeug abgeschossen werden. Das ist für mich ungeheuer sinnbildlich, das habe ich mir angeguckt, das fand ich faszinierend. Und eines Tages bin ich im Grunewald spazieren gegangen, wir wohnten nicht weit weg davon, und da sah ich etwas, was ich auch nie vergessen werde. Ich sah in Puppengröße, also etwa ein Meter, sah ich einen Alliierten Piloten, völlig eingeschrumpft, wie also in einer Maschine eingeschrumpft, aber alles war erkennbar, Gesicht und alles, und dann habe ich mir nachher von Physikern erklären lassen, ich hab das verboten, Entschuldigung, ich hab das vergessen, verloren, was es für eine Erklärung war, jedenfalls habe ich diesen eingeschrumpften Piloten da gesehen. Und eine Sache erinnere ich mich auch noch, wir hatten ganz getrennt immer alles was mit Bad und Toilette zu tun hatte von unseren Eltern, und einmal da war es so dringlich das meine Mutter reingekommen ist und sagt “Kinder guckt mal weg” und hatt sich dann auf’s Kloh gesetzt ohne das wir zugeguckt haben, aber jedenfalls das meine Mutter in meiner Gegenwart, damals dreizehn Jahre alt, sozusagen, pinkelte das war für mich auch so ein Erlebnis was ich nicht vergessen werde, es hat ja eine gewisse Vertrautheit hergestellt. Ja, das sind also eingeprägte Erinnerungen, die eigentlich ganz stark sind, nicht, die, kann man mich nachts wecken und ich kann das alles noch erzählen.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Christoph Wagner Brausewetter
Description
An account of the resource
Christoph Wagner Brausewetter (b. 1929) recounts the hardships civilians endured inside a shelter, the risks involved and the fact they spent there more time there than at home. Maintains that the worst year was 1943, when aircraft were no longer able to take off and Germany lost its air supremacy. Mentions his neighbour Field Marshal Erhard Milch and how his mother got acquainted with Goering’s wife. Tells of how a bomb splinter nearly missed his baby brother and how this triggered a religious epiphany. Describes moments of humour when, waiting for the next bombing, they wondered if something had happened to the bomber crews. Narrates how he was fascinated by the searchlights forming a cross when coning an enemy aircraft and the moment he stumbled upon the shrunken corpse of an allied pilot in the Grünwald forest.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Format
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00:08:12 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#1546
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Grünwald
Germany--Berlin
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
home front
sanitation
searchlight
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/73/Memoro 4243.2.mp3
567dca1b364de2a5bacc4b0dce0fc037
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MD: Ein Eindruck noch der mir auch unvergesslich ist, ist das eines Tages, hat meine Mutter mich Brot holen geschickt nach [unclear] in das Dorf oben auf’m Berg [pauses] und ich war [clears her throat] noch auf der ebenen Strecke, rechts in einiger Entfernung war Wald und es kamen Tiefflieger, ganz viele und der Wald fing an zu brennen und ich kriechte eine panische Angst, ich habe mich in diesen Graben geschmissen obwohl der sumpfig war oder feucht damit man mich nicht sieht, weil es ganz ungeschützt alles war, offener Weg und ich gehört hatte dass die Tiefflieger auch auf einzelne Menschen schiessen, die sich da in der Gegend rumbewegen. Und ich lag dann da in dem Graben und hörte also dann immer zu den Tiefflieger und hab gebetet, dass das bald vorbei ist und ich bald aufstehen und nach Hause rennen kann, aber es hatt sehr lange gedauert. Und dann habe ich gesehen wie Soldaten flohen. Die kamen aus dem Wald. Und [clears throat] als ich dann endlich zurück konnte, also so’ne Pause mal kam mit den Tieffliegern, da sah ich wie diese auf der Hauptstrasse, auf der Dorfstrasse so durch rannten und liefen.
Unknown interviewer: Deutsche Soldaten.
MD: Deutsche Soldaten, die völlig abgerissen waren, schmutzig, kaputte Uniform, hungrig, aber auf der Flucht. Die Dorfbewohner haben, wollten schon denen irgendwie was zu essen geben, obwohl niemand viel hatte aber sie haben sich also auch gar nicht lange aufhalten koennen. Und tatsachlich, nicht lange danach, vielleicht ein Paar Stunden danach, kamen die Amerikaner durch’s Dorf gerollt auf Panzern. Da hab ich zum ersten Mal Schwarze gesehen, auch alle in Uniform, chic, gut rasiert, frisch gekämmt, als ob sie jetzt grade einen Ausflug machen würden. So sahen alle aus und alle waren auch alle ganz nett und freundlich, und schmissen so ‘n bisschen Schockolade in die Kindermenge. Die Dorfbewohner standen am Rand und guckten mit offenen Mündern. [pauses] [clears throat] Zunächst hatten wir Angst, aber als wir sahen dass die uns dann gar nix taten sondern einfach nur durchfahren wollten, wohin auch immer, warscheinlich hinter den Deutschen Soldaten her, da wurden wir dann etwas mutiger und einige sachten sogar: ‘Please give me chocolate’ und die kriechten dann auch was.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maria Domanovszky
Description
An account of the resource
Maria Domanovszky (b. 1937) recounts how she threw herself into a swampy ditch when under fire and how she lay down praying and hoping to get back home safely. Describes German soldiers with torn and dirty uniforms escaping from a burning forest. Tells memories of the first encounter with black American soldiers: they were friendly, looked well-dressed and threw chocolate to a crowd of village children. When the adults standing nearby realised that the soldiers were no cause of alarm, they asked for chocolate as well.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Date
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2010-08-04
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:03:00 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#4243
Rights
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This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
African heritage
childhood in wartime
faith
home front
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/77/Memoro 1722.1.mp3
af1abfd37196c51a1aee44e3d4f12c2d
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PB: Il 1939. Quando seppi della Banca della Memoria, mi tornarono in mente gli anni della guerra che vissi a Firenze con la mia famiglia. Sono certa che i trascorsi di bambina abbiano fortemente determinato la mia vita. Com’era consuetudine a quei tempi la mamma partorì in casa, con l’aiuto di una levatrice: la signorina Rosalinda, che tutti chiamavamo Linda. Era una donna già in là con gli anni, dall’aspetto mascolino, almeno a giudicare dal sigaro che teneva sempre in bocca. Le difficoltà della vita l’avevano resa fredda, risoluta e impassibile, con la gonna blu e la camicetta bianca bene accollata, aveva l’aspetto di un’austera governante. Una donna severa ma simpatica. Avevo appena un anno quando l’Italia entrò a fianco dei tedeschi durante la Seconda Guerra Mondiale. Ricordo che erano momenti drammatici. Non appena la sirena dall’arme ci avvertiva di un imminente bombardamento, correvamo nei rifugi, quei luoghi freddi, lugubri, anonimi, dove si pregava tutti insieme. C’erano uomini, donne, bambini tutti uniti dallo stesso destino ma con una spina nel cuore, e la certezza che di lì a poco sarebbe ricominciato tutto come prima. Poi fummo costretti ad un primo sfollamento a Scopeto, un paesino vicino ad Arezzo. La sera dopo cena tutti gli sfollati si riunivano intorno alla grande tavola della cucina a giocare a tombola, per esorcizzare i momenti drammatici che stavamo vivendo. Poi le luci dei bengala che illuminavano il buio della notte, ci faceva scappare attraverso i campi, ci facevano scappare attraverso i campi, terrorizzati, e ci sdraiavamo lungo i solchi per nasconderci alla loro maledetta vista. Ma non bastò, perché i commenti, i notiziari radiofonici dicevano che Firenze era minacciata dai bombardamenti. Allora il babbo decise di trasferirsi in via Santa Elisabetta dietro piazza del duomo. “Qui saremo al sicuro” disse il babbo “Non vorranno sganciare le bombe sulla cupola del Brunelleschi”. Le sue parole non furono infondate. Faceva grandi code per procurarci un chilo di pane. Qualche volta al mercato nero trovava pacchetti di pasta, bottiglie di latte, sacchetti di zucchero, ed era una grande festa. Durante questo periodo stavamo, dopo tutta [?] la notte, sui gradini delle scale, sempre a pregare, ma anche ad ascoltare terrorizzati il rumore degli aerei che volavano sopra le nostre teste, seguito dal fischio delle bombe che per fortuna correvano lontane da noi. Sentivo una grande nostalgia della mia casa di via Berchet mi mancava il giardino con le sue piante, il bersò con l’altalena, dove amavo rincorrere le nuvole, era il mio luogo magico, dei sogni. Questo ed altri sono racconti che ho raccolto in un libro autobiografico scritto in omaggio ai miei genitori.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Paola Bianchi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Paola Bianchi (b. 1938) recalls daily life in wartime Tuscany. She describes Rosalinda, a strict midwife, and recounts how people used to take refuge in shelters. She also gives an account of how, during the evacuation to Arezzo, they rushed to take shelter in the nearest ditch at night. Paola also remembers her father’s decision to return to Florence and his subsequent attempts to get food on the black market.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#1722
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Florence
Italy--Arezzo
Italy
Format
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00:04:40 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Francesca Campani
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
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Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/80/Memoro 4420.2.mp3
6e728ac606011bc9eec02142acfb5eb8
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CG: Sono Carlo Gasparini, sono nato a Milano il 17 agosto 1930. Tra i ricordi di guerra sicuramente ci sono i ricordi peggiori, cioè quelli dei bombardamenti. Me ne ricordo uno del 1943, un bombardamento notturno. Quando suonò l’allarme ci precipitammo per la strada correndo verso il rifugio e uscendo dal portone c’erano dei grappoli di razzi illuminanti che illuminarono la città a giorno. Sembravano i fuochi d’artificio solo che scendendo molto lentamente si vedeva praticamente tutto. E mi presi una gran paura perché in effetti tra le bombe che cadevano e queste luminarie lo spettacolo non era certamente simpatico, e ritornai dentro e mi infilai in cantina dove rimasi fino a quando non cessò l’allarme, questo me lo ricordo abbastanza bene. Però il peggio venne l’hanno dopo quando, essendo le scuole praticamente chiuse, infatti la scuola San Domenico era diventata un ospedale, mia madre insisté per mandarmi a prendere i compiti dal mio compagno di classe che abitava in via di Barbiano, mi feci un tratto di via San Mamolo lì per la panoramica e, voltando per via di Barbiano, arrivai a casa di questo mio amico il quale mi diede i compiti, cominciammo a parlare un attimo quando improvvisamente suonò l’allarme. Tutti si precipitarono in un rifugio, che le famiglie che abitavano in quella casa avevano fatto scavare nel terreno circostante, ed era costituito da un tunnel vestito di mattoni che però non aveva sfondo, cioè praticamente questo tunnel si fermava contro una parete e non era stato terminato. Io che correvo come una lepre arrivai per primo e chiaramente mi ritrovai contro la parete, solo che arrivò tanta gente che cominciò a premere quindi a un certo momento ero praticamente schiacciato contro la parete. Mentre eravamo dentro cominciarono a cadere le bombe, ma molto molto vicino. Le donne erano quelle che urlavano più forte, mi ricordo gli urli ‘Questa bomba è per noi! Oddio ci siamo! Quindi rimasi molto impressionato e sentii lo scoppio delle bombe molto vicine. Quando finalmente, dopo alcuni minuti la caduta delle bombe terminò, uscimmo e ci rendemmo conto che in effetti erano cadute a poche decine di metri. Mi ricordo perfettamente un prato con degli alberi, dove dei cavalli impazziti correvano al galoppo nitrendo e praticamente fuggendo dal recinto, dalla stalla dove si trovavano. Fortunatamente la casa non fu colpita, e anche se poi ci furono parecchi danni perché caddero degli alberi eccetera, e vi furono anche dei feriti e dei morti. Però l’allarme non era ancora terminato ragione per cui appena io uscii all’aperto, con la mamma del mio amico dissi ‘Guardi signora io avrei piacere di tornare a casa mia’ e lei mi sconsigliava e io dissi ‘Ma guarda io faccio tutta la parte alta cioè proseguo per via di Barbiano, scendo da via San Vittore e arrivo facilmente a casa mia’. Però quando uscii mi resi conto che la strada di via di Barbiano era stata bombardata, ragione per cui ritornai sui miei passi, rifeci via panoramica e la parte alta di via san Mamolo però quando arrivai davanti a Villa Verde c’era una casa che era stata completamente distrutta. Mi fermai perché chiaramente la strada era ostruita, c’erano i pompieri e c’era anche tanta gente che guardava che cosa stava succedendo e qualcuno disse: ‘Ah, da qui in avanti tutta la parte sinistra è stata colpita’ dove c’era la mia casa. Quindi mi precipitai [emphasis] a casa pensando al peggio. Invece quando arrivai davanti a casa la casa era completamente salva, non era vero che la strada era stata bombardata oltre Villa Verde e quindi per fortuna andò tutto bene, e questo certamente fu, è un ricordo abbastanza pesante perché per cinque minuti mi preoccupai moltissimo per i miei e per la mia casa.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carlo Gasparini
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Carlo Gasparini (b. 1930) talks about his memories of the bombing raids on Milan. He provides an account of a night bombing with many flares that illuminated the sky as if it were day. He also describes the rush to safety during another bombing, and how inside the shelter he was forced against the wall. Carlo also recounts his memory of frightened horses escaping from their fenced enclosure, and his fear for his relatives lives because his home had been bombed.
Format
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00:04:51 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#4420
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Milan
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
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Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
fear
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/81/Memoro 5523.2.mp3
90f33533fd9ffacc5e279e81543ea85f
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DC: Non è stato molto bello anche perché io a sei anni ero saggia e orfana di padre e madre.
[part missing in the original file]
DC: E allora son stata in collegio [unclear] io sono nata che mia madre aveva già sette figli però aveva quarantacinque anni lei e poi è morta a cinquanta, per, non so se era una appendicite adesso non so bene. Perché io poi non sono stata molto vicina ai miei fratelli per il fatto che eh son stata in collegio e poi uscita dal collegio avevo qui una mia sorella maggiore che aveva casa qui a Milano e mi ha portato qui a Milano. E qui ho finito un po’ le scuole insomma.
[part missing in the original file]
Other: Com’è il fascismo?
DC: Ah è terribile guardi, ho visto delle scene terribili. Portar via degli uomini che, gli davano l’olio, il bicchiere di olio di ricino. Proprio uscendo dal, eravamo sul marciapiede.
[part missing in the original file]
DC: Vedere questi uomini braccati, da questi altri uomini con questo bicchierino che gli davano, non so guardi, una cosa pietosa è sempre stata.
[part missing in the original file]
DC: Beh in collegio non tanto, è stato quando io sono venuta a Milano che avevo otto o nove anni.
[part missing in the original file]
DC: Noi abitavamo in via Napo Toriani e una notte, come sempre tutte le notti c’era i bombardamenti e poi finito il bombardamento dopo una mezz’ora arrivava il famoso Pippo che avrà sentito nominare forse, no? E però non sentivamo perché l’allarme era cessato. Fatto si è che noi eravamo, eravamo ragazzi, insomma quindici sedici anni, sa a quell’ora lì non si è, a quella età non si è nemmeno tanto molto.
[part missing in the original file]
DC: Esperti non nel senso esperti, nel fatto che eravamo incoscienti insomma. Ci siamo messi a correre perché abbiamo visto le fiamme credevamo fosse la Stazione Centrale e invece era la Bicocca, era la Pirelli. Insomma c’erano le mitraglia [sic], questo qui dell’aeroplano Pippo con la mitraglia, si vede insomma, eravamo tutti pieni di schegge, eravamo in tre o quattro, eravamo tutti pieni di, è stata una notte terribile, terribile è stata.
[part missing in the original file]
DC: Eh si correvamo verso la stazione incoscienti e ci è capitato così insomma. Chi si andava, perché poi i portoni erano chiusi, perché c’erano i capi scala che chiudevano perché andavano nelle cantine a rifugiarsi. Quella notte lì non avevamo nemmeno, non trovavamo nemmeno una porta da andare, da entrare per essere fuori dal marciapiede insomma. Una cosa tremenda. Quella è stata proprio, una scena che non si può dimenticare insomma.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Delia Cardini
Description
An account of the resource
Delia Cardini recalls her childhood as an orphan in a boarding school and how, at the age of 10, she moved to Milan. She remembers how the Fascists used castor oil to humiliate their opponents. Delia also describes how, after a night bombing, she was running to the train station, when suddenly 'Pippo' arrived and started shelling the area, she remembers it as a terrible night.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:03:49 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#5523
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Milan
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/87/Memoro 12241.2.mp3
ed78b3e40528241e9cf33b2ee2d9318c
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SM: Di tutto il periodo della guerra, quello che mi è rimasto impresso è il giorno del bombardamento perché io stavo in ufficio, tutto pensavo meno che sarebbero andati a San Lorenzo a scaricare le bombe gli americani. Quando però si seppe, mi ricordo che immediatamente io lo chiesi e mi fecero uscire e quindi mi avviai a casa e il particolare che non dimenticherò mai è di questo bambino che se lo vedessi adesso lo riconoscerei (coi calzoncini corti, c’aveva i calzoncini beige e una camicetta chiara, pure la camicetta) e mi ricordo che io piangevo, ero sola e piangevo e mi ha chiesto ‘Perché piangi?’ e io gliel’ho detto perché ‘Hanno bombardato il quartiere dove abitano mamma, mia sorella eccetera’. ‘Ti accompagno io’. Senza dire una parola m’ha accompagnato fino a casa facendo tutto Castro Pretorio perché lì l’ho incontrato, Castro Pretorio, via Tiburtina, via degli Equi mi pare, che feci, tanto è vero che lì c’era un fabbricato che era già stato bombardato e vidi questa affaccia, no facciata, a penzoloni alla finestra, una testa, doveva essere una donna secondo me, era stata colpita direttamente. Poi sono arrivata a casa e ho visto che loro erano usciti naturalmente dal rifugio, da quel rifugio che la sera prima ci sembrava fosse sicuro perché papà aveva detto: ‘Se domani dovesse suonare l’allarme voi mettetevi in quell’angoletto, lì quello è un posto sicuro. Quando sono arrivata lì ho visto che invece era l’unico, l’unico angolo del fabbricato che era andato completamente distrutto.
[part missing in the original file]
SM: Quindi ho visto mamma ci siamo naturalmente abbracciati, zia che aveva sentito, che non aveva sentito l’allarme, perché zia non sentiva, non voleva scendere al rifugio. Quindi questo raccontava mamma. Ma la cosa impressionante di questo bambino che è quasi scomparso, mi ha fatto con la manina così e se ne è andato. Questa è la cosa che, e ancora oggi, se io, a me questo bambino non mi sembra cresciuto, io me lo ricordo bambino, se lo, se me lo indicassero tra cento bambini lo riconoscerei perché per me non è cresciuto, è rimasto bambino, e questa, è si. E poi c’è il particolare dello stesso momento che la, quella signora che abitava nello stesso pianerottolo nostro, disse a mamma: ‘Signora Maria domani mattina devo andare a prendere l’assegno (del marito che era richiamato alle armi) se suona l’allarme i bambini stanno soli me li prende lei?’. Mamma le disse ‘Come no!’ e quindi quando andai io a casa mamma, e Franca e zia Lucia stavano co’ questi due bambini aspettando che tornasse la mamma, e invece questa mamma non è tornata perché è stata folgorata per San Lorenzo.
[part missing in the original file]
SM: Ci fu ecco, l’altro episodio, altro episodio, adesso mi sto ricordando, della morte del marito di un’amica che abitava lì di fronte a noi, erano appena sposati, Gabriele, infatti Gabriele nostro porta il nome del marito di questa amica che volevamo tanto bene sia a lei che si chiamava Antonietta e al marito, questo bel ragazzo. Era partito la mattina per andare per andare a militare, in caserma, non è tornato più. Gli volevamo talmente bene che quando nacque Gabriele, mi ricordo misi nome Gabriele, per ricordare questo ragazzo che era veramente bravo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Silvana Morganti
Description
An account of the resource
Silvana Morganti (b. 1924) recalls the bombing of the San Lorenzo neighbourhood in Rome, in which she describes the sight of dead people, a destroyed shelter, and children waiting for their dead mothers to return. Silvana also explains that she christened her child Gabriele, in memory of friend who died.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#12241
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Rome
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-07-19
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:05:02 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
bombing of Rome (19 July 1943)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/88/Memoro 12791.2.mp3
9d1650f66e79dcef30f56c556e366148
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GL: Ho visto, em, quand’er’un [?] ragazzino per esempio io ho vissuto un bombardamento, era una bomba che gettata [?] su Segni, si sentì solo l’esplosione e noi corremmo subito diciamo verso dove esplose sta’ bomba, che l’ha sganciata ‘n aereo de, ‘n aeroplano, de caccia, un caccia. Io siccome Segni e’ fatta di tutti vicoletti, no? io so’ corso sopra verso che tutti correvano lì, perché un’ sapevo che era diciamo non so, poi a una curva, un vicolo stretto, tutti, ho visto un pezzo de mano, per terra, che la pestavano e non se ne accorgeva nessuno. Io mi son bloccato lì, non c’ho avuto più il coraggio di andare avanti, non ho visto quello era successo co’ sta bomba, perché so stato pietrificato proprio, mi so’ fatto subito indietro e so’ scappato, so scappato mi so’ fatto indietro e poi mi so’ messo a vede’ i feriti e i morti che passavano diciamo vicino una strada, una cosa raccapricciante, cioè cose.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gino Lanni
Description
An account of the resource
Gino Lanni (b. 1935) describes how he ran through the alleyways of Segni in the aftermath of a bombing. He also recalls his experience of seeing a severed hand being trampled by panic-stricken people and also the sight of dying civilians.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:01:36 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#12791
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Segni
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-03-07
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/89/Memoro 15131.2.mp3
06d0d0560505520a5591244376cbaf4f
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MB: La guerra lì abbiamo patito, non proprio cinghia cinghia ma tanta, abbastanza fame, si mangiava polenta. Al mattino si andava a scuola, c’era una volta quelle stufe con la piastra sopra di legno, si faceva abbrustolire una fetta di polenta, per colazione, e [cries] due fichi.
[part missing in the original file]
MB: Si andava a scuola e c’erano i caccia, la stazione del paese che c’era, che passavano da Vicenza andavano nel Brennero i treni, proprio.
Other: Una linea importante.
MB: Importante molto, e quando c’era qualche treno fermo, allora c’erano i caccia che arrivavano e mitragliavano. E noi quando c’era i caccia ci dovevano, dove eravamo fermi perché quelli che vedevano mitragliavano eh.
Other: La scuola era molto vicina alla stazione?
MB: In paese proprio, due chilometri, ed era mica tanto distante.
Other: Due chilometri. Dov’è che vi mettevate al riparo, dove?
MB: Perché io mi ricordo come ho detto prima, un giorno si ritornava a casa da scuola e si costeggiava questo fosso di acqua, e per non, che mi vedessero siamo andati.
Other: dentro il fosso stesso, a bagno?
MB: Si, si.
Other: E che bambini, eravate bambini?
MB: Avevamo dieci anni.
Other: Dieci anni.
[part missing in the original file]
MB: Però dopo finito le mitragliatrici che facevano gli aerei noi si andava nei campi a raccogliere i bossoli di ottone da 20 centimetri e poi si vendevano.
Other: Si vendevano.
MB: Si vendevano.
Other: Si vendevano.
MB: E no era soldi che si teneva noi eh.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Matteo Basso
Description
An account of the resource
Matteo Basso (b. 1934) recalls his diet during the war: at school for breakfast, he used to eat a slice of polenta and two figs. He also talks about his experience in being caught out in the open when a formation of aircraft dropped bombs close to the school, and how he had to take shelter in a ditch. Matteo also remembers how, after the attack, he went to a field to pick up copper shell cases to sell.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:02:26 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#15131
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/90/Memoro 888.1.mp3
fd4384772bb19b8a281c03a0dcbbb229
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MF: Al mattino mio papà si alza presto, va a fare un giro nel suo orto, prima di andare a lavorare e ti trova un buco come di una bomba, il buco di una bomba, grande grande, come vedere lì quella la terra tutta tirata su. Allora corre in casa e chiede a mia mamma, dice a mia mamma: “Di’ guarda che di là han buttato una bomba”. Si vede che non è esplosa perché noi non ce ne siamo accorti, però è caduta nel molle, non è scattata la spoletta (queste sono tutte cose che dicevano loro) la spoletta, poi c’era un’altra cosa, la sicura che cos’è? Poi la bomba è rimasta lì, come una bottiglia piantata nel prato, praticamente. Allora hanno chiamato.
[part missing in the original file]
MF: Gli artificieri
Unknow interviewer: quelli dell’UNPA
MF: No, quelli dell’UNPA erano tutti al [unclear] ubriachi come oche, perché erano contenti che Mussolini aveva dichiarato la guerra, e saremmo diventati padroni del mondo. Invece così non è stato, e i francesi ne hanno approfittato, han capito che in Italia c’è il vino buono, han detto: ”Quelli vanno a bere di sicuro”, ma non ce n’era manco uno in giro, facevi in tempo a morire cento volte. C’erano però quei, i razzi, i, no.
[part missing in the original file]
MF: No i bengala [background voice] quelli dei fari dritti che sembravano delle braccia, delle enormi braccia.
[part missing in the original file]
MF: I riflettori, illuminavano dappertutto, dove c’era un obiettivo loro lo illuminavano.
[part missing in the original file]
MF: Difeso? Non hanno mai difeso nessuno perché poi.
[part missing in the original file]
MF: A centrare un aereo con quelle luci lì è un po’ difficile
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margherita Franco
Description
An account of the resource
Margherita Franco (b. 1934) describes how an unexploded bomb was found in the garden of their house. Mentions technical terms she learned at that time and describes how her father resorted to the Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea bomb disposal units, and describes their lax approach to discipline. She also describes searchlights circling in the night sky.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:01:59 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#888
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
childhood in wartime
civil defence
searchlight
Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/171/PFilliputtiA16010082.1.jpg
adebecc2bf087069657b48a0830f2617
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bombers flying over San Giorgio di Nogaro
Description
An account of the resource
Bombers fly over a town. In the scene, every window is lit up. Civilians are running for shelter. A woman reaches out for her child. One man remains stationary and seems confused. The five aircraft are being targeted by anti-aircraft fire.
Label reads “207”; signed by the author; caption reads “Caption reads “3 GENNAIO 1945. Bimotori alleati, provenienti dalla marina in formazione libera, sorvolano S. Giorgio di Nogaro UD nelle ore serali sotto il tiro dei proiettili traccianti delle batterie tedesche della Baiana.”
Caption translates as: “4 January 1945. Allied twin-engines aircraft coming from the sea in an open formation, fly over San Giorgio di Nogaro (Udine province) late at night. They are targeted by tracer shot by German batteries at Baiana.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010082
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Antiaircraft artillery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--San Giorgio di Nogaro
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
anti-aircraft fire
arts and crafts
bombing
childhood in wartime
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/179/PFilliputtiA16010090.2.jpg
22a207b58ea037c4a8887b0a63f3bde5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bombing of Dresden
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010090
Description
An account of the resource
Men, women and children flee in panic surrounded by fire and destruction. One man falls to the ground near a pylon. Two ships are visible in the background and the nearer of the two has taken a direct hit and exploded in flames. At the top of the picture, six aircraft continue to bomb, causing further explosions and plumes of smoke.
Label reads “225”; signed by the author; caption reads “(I) DRESDA, GERMANIA, l’APOCALISSE CHE POCHI CONOSCONO. 13 FEBBRAIO 1945. La Bomba atomica sù Hiroshima provocò 71.000 morti, il bombardamento sù Dresda, sei mesi prima ne aveva provocati almeno 135.000. La tempesta di fuoco più violenta di tutta la storia, Goebbels diceva che a Dresda, c’erano solo fabbriche di dentifricio e talco, ma a Dresda furono i civili a pagare, e a un prezzo spaventoso. Il triplice attacco sù Dredsa, l’operazione “colpo di tuono” iniziò alle 22.15 del 13 Febbraio 1945, d’improvviso il cielo sì illuminò a giorno: erano le cascate di bengala al magnesio, in 3 minuti con un rombo assordante, planarono sulle case 244 ”Lancaster”…"
Caption translates as: “(1) Dresden, Germany – The Apocalypse That Only A Few Know. 13 February 1945. The atomic bomb on Hiroshima caused 71,000 deaths. Six months earlier, the bombing over Dresden caused at least 135,000 deaths: the most violent firestorm in history. Goebbels said that, in Dresden, there were only toothpaste and talcum factories. However, those who paid the consequences were mostly the civilians. They paid a horrendous price. The triple attack over Dresden – operation “Thunderclap” – began on 13 February 1945 at 10.15 pm. Suddenly, the sky became floodlit with magnesium flares. Within three minutes, 244 Lancaster aircraft glided [sic] on the houses, making a thunderous rumble…”.
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Dresden
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
arts and crafts
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
incendiary device
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/225/Bombe-a-Torino_2.2.mp3
9e318f7fefd794c0070f79c6d0b4297e
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LB: Dobbiamo parlare del passato. E non è una cosa tanto tanto semplice. Anche perché difficilmente i giovani capiscono quello che noi abbiamo passato, trascorso. Soprattutto la mia generazione che ha passato il periodo maledetto della guerra, ed ero giovane all’epoca, cioè ero piccola, più che giovane.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Negli anni ‘43, nacque tra le altre cose la mia sorellina.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: E mio papà cercava di fare il possibile per darci da mangiare, perché non si trovava nulla, la bambina era piccola piccola quindi.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Io andavo a scuola dalle suore del paese dove ero.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: E poi, c’è stato un periodo che la bimba, la mia sorellina si è anche ammalata quindi bisognava darle il primo, il primo latte della stessa mucca, insomma che la mamma, mi obbligava, beh non c’era papà a casa quindi doveva farlo io, mi obbligava andare prima della scuola a prendere il latte per la bimba, che se no aveva mal di pancia, aveva. Allora, io, nove anni, prima di andare a scuola, partivo con la mia bicicletta e andavo, la chiamavano Nona Baila, la baglia [sic] del mio papà che aveva una cascina e che ci aiutava, ci dava anche qualcosa da mangiare, eccetera, a prendere questo latte e [laughs] facevo quattro o cinque chilometri in bicicletta, nove anni eh ricordatevi [emphasis]. Arrivavo alla cascina, solo che, per entrare nella cascina c’erano [laughs] due oconi.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Comunque queste oche mi correvano dietro e mi mordevano il culo.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Al che la nonna, la nonna Baila mi dice ‘Ma fatti furba, ma vai a slegare il cane quando arrivi’. E così allora, così feci, e questo episodio insomma finì perché Fido, il cane, correva dietro alle oche e io potevo andare a prendere il latte.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Passato un certo periodo di tempo, insomma, sempre nello sfollamento, la sottoscritta doveva dare l’esame della quinta elementare e le suore me lo fecero fare in quarta elementare.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Dal paese che era Osasco di Pinerolo dovevamo andare a Pinerolo per dare l’esame perché lì non c’era la scuola.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: E allora le suore organizzarono il trasporto di questi bambini che dovevano dare l’esame d’ammissione a Pinerolo e ci fecero viaggiare molto comodamente con due panche su an tamagniun [carro agricolo], al dis io [sic], trainato dai cavalli [laughs] e siamo andati a Pinerolo a dar l’esame.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: E poi successe che, con i tedeschi, partigiani, tutte queste cose che eccetera.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Un bel giorno arrivano le SS e bussano alla porta di casa mia prelevano mio padre e lo portano sulla piazza del paese e la sottoscritta, siccome urlavo, mi portano, mi portano anche me su al paese nella piazza e vedo che mettono uno a destra uno a sinistra, uno a destra uno a sinistra. Insomma a un certo punto mio padre lo liberano, però da quel momento papà non voleva più stare lì e abbiam deciso di tornare a Torino.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Torino era mezza bombardata.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Non si trovava tanto da mangiare, si mangiava quello che, c’era la tessera annonaria, c’era il pane, non c’era, ecco perché dico che papà ha fatto di tutto per sempre portarci il pane, almeno il pane.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Posso ringraziare mio padre, non ho mai mangiato il pane nero, ho sempre mangiato il pane bianco perché papà riusciva in qualche modo a procurarselo e si mangiava come si poteva, insomma a quel periodo. E però c’era il fattore scuola, e c’erano ancora i bombardamenti. Quindi io ho iniziato a fare le medie.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Papà mi ha iscritto a Torino, quindi a volte prendevo il tram, dovevo andare a scuola, trovavi, arrivava un bombardamento, tutti giù dal tram, cerca. Erano periodi.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: Fino agli anni ‘45 che poi c’è stata la Liberazione. Comunque, eri a scuola e veniva, suonava l’allarme e bisognava scappare. Finisce il periodo maledetto, arriva la Liberazione e allora.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: C’è stata più libertà, c’è stata più, la gente sta tutta allegra, si ballava nei cortili delle case, non come oggi che sono pieni di parcheggi, di macchine eccetera, quindi eravamo tutti allegri contenti, ehm ti trovavi nel cortile anche noi adolescenti, stavi anche a chiacchierare, a giocare ehm, a scambiarti le idee, così come.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: La festa è durata parecchi, parecchi diciamo mesi, perché ti trovavi, ehm intanto potevi accendere la luce non dovevi, perché durante la guerra c’era l’oscuramento, quindi a una certa ora dovevi tirare giù le persiane, e non far vedere la luce, e quindi avevi molta più libertà.
[part missing in the original file]
LB: E poi intanto sono cresciuta e quindi ho dovuto, ho smesso di andare a scuola, ho iniziato le scuole superiori poi non volevo più studiare, allora il papà mi ha detto, allora vai a lavorare.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lidia Barberis
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Lidia Barberis (b. 1934) remembers her early life in Turin and Piedmont under the constant threat of bombing. She describes her father being taken away by the SS, the daily chores and a precarious trip by horse-drawn cart. Describe the postwar period as full of joy and anticipation.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:07:14 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#Bombe-a-Torino_2.html
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Turin
Italy--Pinerolo
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Waffen-SS
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/226/591.2.mp3
6d2bbd6a840e3c8def43e132e9049dca
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LG: C’erano le persone che si chiamavano dell’UNPA.
[part missing in the original file]
LG: Ecco c’era un corpo di volontari chiamato UNPA, che avevano una fascia così con su questa sigla, adesso non ricordo cosa volesse dire, ad ogni modo facevano come la protezione civile, se per esempio la casa era crollata e c’era bisogno di andare sotto per tirare fuori delle persone, di scavare, di fare delle cose, loro intervenivano. E ogni caseggiato aveva il capofabbricato. Il capofabbricato che aveva il compito, il dovere di far uscire tutti dall’appartamento, no? Certi invece non volevano ‘Io muoio qua nella mia casa, non voglio andarmene, piuttosto che fare la morte del topo voglio morire nel mio appartamento’. Però loro avevano proprio, anche litigando dovevano farli andare fuori, farli andare al rifugio ecco.
[part missing in the original file]
LG: Le porte erano, beh, quando si doveva andare ovviamente si entrava, no? Però di giorno, a me personalmente era capitato, avevano una capacità di tante persone.
Unknown interviewer: Eh quello signora [?].
LG: Più di quel numero non potevano ospitare, per sicurezza, per tante cose, e una volta io e con le mie amiche eravamo, bigiavamo scuola [laughs] eravamo in una fiera sui bastioni di Porta Venezia, e quando è successo, come si chiama, l’allarme, siamo scesi sulla Vittorio Veneto, lei conosce magari, insomma Vittorio Veneto, lì c’era la capienza di quarantatré persone e a noi non c’han fatto entrare, allora abbiamo dovuto attraversare tutta piazza della Repubblica che è una delle poche piazze di Milano grandi, no? Per arrivare dall’altra parte perché noi stavamo a Porta Nuova in quel momento, ormai io ero già via da qua, e dopo poco è successo che hanno mitragliato un uomo che era col cavallo, e hanno ammazzato anche il cavallo, che era col carro che passava dalla piazza, perché l’aereo era venuto giù e, questo era di pomeriggio che è successo. Perché non potevano ospitare tutti quelli che passavano, se c’era un rifugio piccolo limitato, più di quello non poteva.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Luciana Cella Guffanti
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Luciana Cella Guffanti (b. 1932) describes the role played by officers of the Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea during the bombings of Milan, especially when they had to persuade reluctant people to go to the shelters. She describes an occasion when the alarm sounded, and she and her friend were prevented from entering an already overcrowded shelter and had to cross the vast Piazza della Repubblica which was being strafed.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:02:30 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#591.html
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Milan
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
strafing
Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/227/10449.1.mp3
c2f325c55e3644c2a933fc441ae7005a
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RG: C’era il coprifuoco eh ragazzi, si chiamava coprifuoco. Tu dalla sera dovevi tappare le cose, le finestre perché arrivava Pippo che si divertiva anche, perché poi in un certo senso si divertiva, perché lui aveva preso la linea ferroviaria Modena-Brennero, Modena-Verona, cioè dove abitavo io passava passava la ferrovia, anche attualmente, passa a venti metri da casa, infatti nel cortile noi abbiamo avuto anche delle bombe, che tentavano di colpire Pippo ma non ci sono mai riuscite. Dopo la guerra, chi guidava, insomma l’aviatore di Pippo è venuto anche in Italia è venuto. I bambini alle 10 ti dicevano ‘A gh’e’ Pippo’. E lo sentivi che arrivava e cercava di bombardare, perché anche e soprattutto mandavano in Germania, perché io ho visto quel signore quando ha parlato di Ausiz [Auschwitz], io vedevo, noi bambini vedevamo i treni pieni, i treni merci pieni di deportati, che ci urlavano e ci chiedevano da bere e ci picchiavano nelle dita, o le nostre mamme perché erano soprattutto le donne, che cercavano di, tentavano [emphasis] di allungargli, buttargli qualcosa da quei finestrini dei mercati bestiame, dei vagoni bestiame, no? Era ‘na roba da matti, e cosa facevano? Cercavano anche di farli passare di notte, oppure facevano passare le armi, e Pippo cercava di centrarli.
[part missing in the original file]
RG: Ma in genere, almeno nella zona lì intorno, dei morti, dei feriti causa Pippo io non ne ricordo ecco.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Rosanna Giungi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:02:20 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#10449
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Verona
Italy--Modena
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Rosanna Giungi (b. 1933) describes how Pippo disrupted daily life in wartime, affecting especially those close to the Modena-Brennero and Modena-Verona railway lines. Reminisces the sight of Germany-bound trains packed with people desperately asking for food and water, and stressed the role of local women in helping them.
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
Holocaust
home front
Pippo