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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1543/28489/BDowardATansleyEHv2.1.pdf
a5bc3044ecbe7ba5221e2c6bfc701cf3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tansley, Ernest Henry
E H Tansley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tansley, EH
Description
An account of the resource
98 items. <br />The collection concerns Pilot Officer Ernest Henry Tansley (1914 - 1943, 149542 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 57 Squadron and was killed 2 December 1943. Collection consists of photographs, letters, memoires, biographies, accounts of operations, logbook extracts and official/personal documents.<br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Anne Doward and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br />Additional information on Ernest Tansley is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/122894/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Anne Doward nee Tansley. I was born into war torn England in May 1940 and had a Mummy Irene, Daddy Ernie and a big brother Peter aged three. Dad was born in West Ham, Essex in 1914 and after leaving college, he went to work as an office clerk to a firm of Shipping Agents. After several years and by then married with a young son, he gave up office work and joined the Dock industry where he became a stevedore, the prospect of better wages being the incentive. Around the time I was born, and because of the unsettled times, my father was no longer living at home having been transferred from London to work in Scotland at Gourock Docks. I spent the first year of my life in Scotland because Mum was determined not to be separated from my father for longer than was necessary. I remember her telling me how she had travelled on the long train journey with three year old Peter and myself. At only six weeks old she had carried me in a suitcase (hopefully with the lid open). It wasn’t an easy journey to make with a small baby but the train was full of young servicemen who helped to keep Peter amused and made up bottles of milk for me, for which Mum was extremely grateful. After much research, I discovered that Dad, despite being in a reserved occupation had signed up to join the R.A.F in March 1941. Unhappy with the way the war was going, he wanted to help ensure a safe, happy future for his family. He was placed on the ‘reserve list and eventually called up in the August. After undergoing initial training in the UK, he was sent off to America to undergo his flying training as a pilot and he was there from December 1941 until his return to England in October 1942. Once back in England he continued with his training until July1943 when he and his seven chosen crew members were posted to 57 Squadron in Scampton, Lincolnshire to fly the Lancaster bomber. Tragically, they all lost their lives on a bombing raid to Berlin on the 2nd December 1943. My memories of Dad were very few indeed as I was only three years old, but I clearly remember that early December day when the telegram boy knocked at the door. We had been staying at the home of Mum’s parent’s, looking forward to Dad’s next leave, hopefully in time for Christmas. Mum answered the door, with me as usual, clinging to her skirts as I was always a shy little girl. She stood in the hallway and when she had finished reading the telegram, she sat down on the stairs and began to cry. Not having seen her cry before, or understanding why she was upset, I climbed onto her lap, put my arms around her and said “don’t cry mummy, I’ll look after you”. Three months later on the 12th of March 1944, Bobby arrived, my new baby brother. There are only a few precious memories of Dad which were imprinted on my mind all those years ago, probably because they were happy ones. At the time, we were living at 7 Church Hill, Thundersley, the last of four little bungalows on the side of very steep hill. We had probably moved there when Dad returned from his training in America. It overlooked lovely woods that were full of bluebells in the spring, and I remember watching children toboggan down the hill in the snow. Young Peter was probably in the thick of it! I know that Dad was gentle and kind and remember holding his hand as we walked Peter to school one day. It was in this bungalow that I have my few precious memories of Dad. I can see him now, so plainly, out in the back garden digging. It was a sunny day and Mum helped me down the steps at the back door so I could run down to help him. It was some years later that I asked Mum who the
[page break]
man was that I remembered in the garden. She simply said “that was daddy, digging me a veggie patch” I had just needed to know for sure that it was him. Another vague memory was when Dad must have come home on leave. We were all in the front room of this same bungalow and Dad was still in uniform. I remember he turned to Peter and myself and told us we could go and look in his bag to see what we could find. I remember well that the bag was in the hall, near the front door so he must have only just arrived. We ran out to the bag to open it but our little fingers struggled with the fastenings. Dad came to the rescue but sadly I cannot remember what that precious gift had been. My other remaining memory was in this same front room. Dad was again wearing his uniform and he was holding me in his lap. I had my coat and bonnet on and we were waiting for Mum to finish getting ready. Maybe he was going back after his leave and it was the last time I ever saw him – I will never know. After that, we must have lived with my grandparents in their lovely old house ‘The Poplars’ as that is where Bob was born and is where most of my memories are. Despite everything, they seem to be happy ones. There was a huge garden to play in, a sunken garden with fish pond, an orchard at the far end and always eggs to collect from the hens. Indoors, the scullery was one of my favourite places. This is where I would ‘help’ Nan when she was baking, sending flour everywhere and help Grandpop to mash up hard boiled eggs to feed to his baby canaries (he kept a lot of chickens). We spent many happy times in the parlour, gathered round the old black range and it was here that my grandfather would puff away at his pipe and blow smoke out of his ears. That always made us laugh and he would also tell us little ones, ghost stories. He was good at telling stories, but the ghost ones frightened the life out of me. It was in this room that a door led to the cupboard under the stairs and I remember the times when wailing sirens meant Peter and I were hurried out of bed in the dead of night to take shelter in there. Although there was a proper shelter in the garden, Mum always liked to keep us together in the cupboard, knowing I was frightened by the sirens and was afraid of the gas mask. In 1944 I had to have my tonsils removed and I remember Mum driving me to the hospital in Tilbury in a car she had borrowed. When I was taken to the ward I was dismayed to find I was being made to sleep in a cot, after being used to a bed at home. A little boy next to me had his tonsils removed on the same day as me and the next day he was given a bowl of ice cream. I sat eagerly hoping that I would get some too but all I was handed was a fig!! I took one bite and then threw it as far as I could under my cot. I was never given any ice cream! When Mum took me home however, I found that she had arranged a little party for me with sandwiches, cakes and jelly. Everyone tucked in but me, as my throat was still too sore but the jelly slid down nicely. The thing I hated most at the hospital was watching the blackout blinds being pulled down at night before we could have any lights on. At some time before I started school we moved to our own little bungalow, not far from my grandparents. Moving day was memorable because our local friendly coalman kindly did the honours, using his coal lorry! Opposite the school I later went to and which Peter was already attending, was a sweet shop where we were sometimes allowed to buy a penn’orth of our favourite sweets. Mine were liquorice
[page break]
comfits which I would carefully carry home in the twisted cone of paper. A luxury of being at school was the occasional tin of chocolate powder which all the children were given, courtesy of the Canadians. Peter used to help me prise the lid off my tin so we could sample it before reaching home. All three of Mum’s brothers prospered leaving her to struggle on the best she could. The visits to her dressmaker soon came to a halt and it was make do and mend, and for us children, other people’s hand me downs. I will never forget my eighth birthday when I unwrapped two new summer dresses and a pair on ankle socks. I thought all my Christmases had come at once. Mum didn’t seem able to settle for long and we moved around a lot before finally making our home in Hockley, Essex in 1949. This was the ninth home I had lived in !! It was a long unmade road, the houses interspersed with open fields and areas of woodland. It was lined with plenty of trees, many of which were fine old oaks. This is where we settled at last and spent our growing up years. By this time however, young Peter was ensconced in a boarding school, courtesy of the R.A.F. We had some good times there. Peaceful days when we could wander off to play in the woods, climb trees, play a game of make shift cricket or simply look for butterflies and grasshoppers in the long grasses. Sometimes we would meet up with old Mrs Muir, the ‘goat lady’ and the peace would be shattered by the noisy bleating, or we would all cycle to the nearby river to have a paddle, or if the tide was out, squelch in the mud looking for crabs, Mum included. We would then cycle home, happy but muddy and looking forward to tea. Mum was offered part time job in the local ‘corner shop’ which helped to eke out her R.A.F. pension. It could hardly be called a shop nowadays as it was in the front room of an old house run by two quite elderly sisters. The shop was dark and dusty and until I got to know them better I was rather afraid of going in there alone. A loud bell jangled over the door as you entered and because it was so gloomy, you had to be careful not to trip over the sacks of potatoes stacked on the floor. They sold sugar which was weighed out on scales to whatever amount you wanted, and then poured into stiff blue paper bags, and if you could only afford a quarter of a pound of butter, they quite happily cut a half pound pack in two for you. Although times were hard, Mum didn’t like us to always have margarine on our bread so she would buy half a pack of marge and another of butter and I usually had the job of blending the two together for teatime. There was no electricity in the road when we first moved there so no ‘mod cons’. No television, washing machine fridge, freezer, vacuum cleaner or central heating, even if you could afford them. A flat iron was heated up on the gas cooker and on many a night we cursed when we stuck our fingers through the delicate gas mantles when we went to light them. Matches and candles were always to hand. In the evenings we would play cards or shove-halfpenny, have a game of draughts, darts, do jig-saw puzzles or read. Sometimes, if the battery for the radio had been charged up, we would listen to things like ‘Dick Barton Special Agent’ when it was being broadcast. We would sit in the dining room with the lights out and watch the shadows dancing round the room from the flickering flames of the old black oil stove. They are all good memories. Although life wasn’t easy for Mum on her own and we had few luxuries, we always seemed happy enough and knew we were loved. She dedicated the whole of her life to us, even refusing offers of marriage as she didn’t want anyone else looking after ‘Dad’s children’. She wasn’t very good at showing us affection but she was always there for us.
[page break]
Mum was a very private person, keeping herself to herself and she made no real friends. None of us were very outgoing. Peter, when he returned from boarding school was a very different child. He had suffered badly at being taken away from the love of his family and had developed a bad stutter. He had, in fact, been robbed of is childhood and had grown up without the fun of being with his siblings and Bob and I had lost our much loved big brother who had always looked out for us. He had now become this serious young lad, taking on what he felt was his responsibility to the family. He went out and found himself a job in a printing firm when he was fourteen and they held the job open for him until he finished the next term at school so he could officially leave. Although the firm was taken over several times by larger companies, he stayed faithful to them. Peter gave up any chance of marriage and stayed at home to look after Mum, even tending her when she was diagnosed with terminal cancer, until her death aged 69. Peter himself died from an unexpected heart attack when he was 64, and very sadly, Bob was the one who found him. Bob was different in as much as most of Mum’s love was showered upon him. Peter and myself accepted this, understanding, even at that young age, that he was the mainstay of her life, the last link to Dad. He was bullied at school and grew up with little self- esteem. He was a very nervous young man, completely lacking in confidence and has never really outgrown it. I love him dearly. That just leaves me. I have always been very shy and find it uncomfortable meeting with strangers face to face. Like Bob, I too lack confidence and being unsure of myself am easily hurt. My one success was when I wrote a little book about my search for my much loved Dad. I think the loss of a father figure from our lives at such an early age probably had a lot to do with the way we all turned out. My first introduction to the harshness of the outside world began in 1951 when I started at my Secondary school in Rayleigh, a neighbouring town. Hockley was a small village then and I had made one or two good friends in our close knit street, but at Secondary school I had to mix with ‘outsiders’. I suppose we had led a fairly sheltered life, Mum was always there to look out for us, so I was quite unprepared for my first day at the Tech. We were in our classroom, and when our teacher called out our names we had to stand up and answer his questions. Then it was my turn –“What does your father do?” “I don’t have a father” I blurted out. I could feel dozens of pairs of eyes looking at me. Why did I have to be the only one who did not have a father? That’s when the whispering started and in my ignorance, I didn’t know why. I just wished the ground would open up and swallow me. Still I had to stand there and give an explanation. When I arrived home from school that afternoon, I rifled through drawers and cupboards until I found a tiny creased photo of my dad which he had sent home from America. On the back was written – Carlstrom Field, Florida, and the date, 22nd January 1942, and it was where he had started his pilot training. I found it difficult to believe that this smiling young man, dressed in khaki like an American soldier, could possibly be my dad but I carried that photo with me every day after that, and I still do. It was over 50 years later that I discovered it had been taken on his 28th birthday. When I left school in 1956, I went to work in a Travel Agency. It was here that I had my first taste of flying, being entitled to cheap and sometimes free holidays. Life continued and I eventually married and had two lovely daughters. It wasn’t until the death of my younger daughter, Mandi, on Valentine’s Day 1989 at the age of just twenty one, that I recalled how important photographs
[page break]
were. I had made up a special album of photographs to remember her by, but what memories did I have of Dad. Obviously personal ones hardly existed and Mum could never bring herself to talk much about him and consequently had kept very little to remember him by. I felt that now was the time to begin my search. I had to find out about this dear man whom I had loved and missed for over 50 years, but where to begin… His death certificate was the first thing I applied for and even this showed information that was new to me. I now knew his rank and unit. Pilot Officer Ernest Henry Tansley, 149542, 57 Squadron. His age 29, place of death, Trebbin, Germany. What upset me most was written under date of death. 2nd December 1943- that I knew, but why ‘presumed’? I cast my mind back to my childhood and recalled Mum saying that he hadn’t been identified and had been presumed killed . For years I had lived in the hope that one day my daddy would walk through the door and everything would be alright again. I could now see that the ‘presumed’ applied to the date of death, but why didn’t they know? All sorts of possibilities flitted across my mind and I took out my small crumpled photograph and studied it again. Supposing he had survived the crash and had been lying somewhere, injured, with no on to help him. It didn’t bear thinking about and I wasn’t sure that I wanted to know any more, so tried to put it out of my mind. After a few months, I decided to start my search in earnest and after about two years of writing to newspapers R.A.F magazines and the usual official sources etc. I was amazed by the amount of information I had collected. There were letters from wonderful, kind hearted veterans, many of whom had flown with 57 Squadron and were only too pleased to help in any way they could and others telling me of further sources and people I could contact. I stayed friends with many of these lovely men until they too ‘went to the skies’. From advertising in local newspapers, I eventually knew the names of all of Dad’s crew members and had contact with a relative for each one. They sent me photos and gave me background information on their loved ones. I managed to trace each of the 22 missions on which they had flown including Peenemunde, and the raids on Hamburg and Berlin. I discovered the place where their doomed Lancaster had crashed after being shot down and was in contact with a gentleman who lived in the houses next to the crash site. He even had a piece of the Lancaster, which he very kindly gave to me together with a map of the crash site and photos of the wreckage. The final flight of JB 529 DX-P was to Berlin on the 2nd December 1943, from East Kirkby airfield. Unexpected strong winds had blown many of the aircraft off course and Dad’s Lancaster was spotted, flying low, possibly already damaged, over the small town of Trebbin at 11pm German time. It was caught in searchlights and attacked by a JU 88 from the nearby Jutterbog airfield. PPeter retaliated but very sadly the aircraft exploded and all eight men on board were lost. SGT. IVOR GROVES. Wireless Op, age 20. SGT. LEONARD BROWN, Flt. Eng. age 20 P/O DOUGLAS PARK. Navigator, age 20. P/O ROY LEWIS, Mid-Up Gnr, age 21 P/O JACK DALTON. 2nd ‘dickie’ Pilot, age 22. SGT. HAROLD MOAD Rear Gnr, age 23 P/O ERNEST PATRICK ,Bomb aimer.age 25. P/O ERNEST TANSLEY PIlot, age 29 LET US KEEP THEIR CANDLES BURNING The result of this research culminated in me thinking I might be able to write a little book about the experiences of Dad and his crew. This I finally achieved in 1966.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anne Doward nee Tansley
Description
An account of the resource
Biography of Ernest Tansley's daughter Anne. Writes of background and family. Gives service history of her father including joining, training in England and the United States and eventual posting to 57 Squadron at RAF Scampton. Writes of her memories of her father including recollection of her mother receiving information that her father was killed in action, birth of her baby brother and other memories of her childhood and her mother coping with loss of her husband. Continues with experiences after the war and her eventual search for information about her father including his crew and their final operation.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
A Doward
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Six page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BDowardATansleyEHv2
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Essex
United States
England--Lincolnshire
England--Thundersley
Florida--Arcadia
Germany
Germany--Trebbin
Florida
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-05
1941-03
1943-07
1943-12-02
1951
1942-01-22
1956
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
57 Squadron
childhood in wartime
heirloom
Ju 88
killed in action
Lancaster
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
shelter
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1110/26180/MSaundersA[DoB]-171003-01.pdf
204a034a79927b297e3e2b0268d8af8b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunders, Roy and Honor
Roy Saunders
R Saunders
Honor Saunders
H Saunders
Description
An account of the resource
158 items. Oral history interviews with Roy Saunders (b. 1930) and Honor Saunders (b. 1931) and six albums of family photographs. Both experienced the London Blitz. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1638 ">Foreshaw and Carter Photos</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1639 ">Foreshaw Family</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1640">Roy and Honor Saunders</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1641">Saunders Family</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1642">Thorpe and Diver Family</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1643">Thorpe Family</a><br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy and Honor Saunders and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Saunders, R-H
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
My Maternal Grandparents
Their Family, Childhood and War Time Experiences
Description
An account of the resource
A document written as a Summer Project whilst Aidan was at school. She discusses their early years after her grandparents got married in London. During the war the family moved to Wales for safety.
After the war John, possibly her brother, became a respected vet who specialised in cancer.
There are short biographies of Alfred Carter and John Carter.
Aidan then details the plan for her project.
There are questions and answers for her grandmother, Honor Saunders, the war time questions and family history display great detail.
Her grandfather, Roy Saunders is also questioned in detail. He was unfit for military service, worked for the railways then applied and was accepted for work on the railways in Nigeria.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Aidan Saunders
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
61 typed sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Text. Personal research
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MSaundersA[DoB]-171003-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Wales--Llandovery
Singapore
Burma
England--Colchester
Poland--Warsaw
England--Ely
England--Isleham
England--Looe
Nigeria--Lagos
England--Brighton
England--Lancing
England--Welwyn Garden City
England--Wantage
Poland
Nigeria
England--Essex
England--Herefordshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Sussex
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
African heritage
bombing
childhood in wartime
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
evacuation
faith
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
home front
propaganda
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/522/32093/BMannAMannAv3.2.pdf
8d2f09c086bd0149c025df13d8536dd3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mann, Alan
A Mann
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mann, A
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alan Mann (b.1926). He was an apprentice at De-Havilland during the war and experienced bombing in 1940.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Alan Mann and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The other day I watched a programme where a family attempted to show what it must have been like to have lived in the war. It involved dressing up in 1940 clothes and spending time in an Anderson shelter, with sounds of an air raid and the music of Glen Miller. I found I could in no way relate to this and felt it did little to show people what it was really like. The war has been very well documented and there is no shortage of material for people interested in reading about the war, but what was it really like for me?
In 1938 I was eleven years old and lived with my parents in Lewisham. I was aware that there was talk about another war with Germany and saw various preparations taking place. I had recently joined my new school, Brockley Grammar in Hilly Fields and there was talk about the school being evacuated. Towards the end of the year the school was evacuated to Robertsbridge in Kent, I chose not to go.
I remember seeing anti-aircraft guns being installed in Hilly Fields, close to my school, windows being taped up, buildings being protected with sand bags and gas masks being issued. Although I can remember a lot of events I cannot recall the specific dates on which they occurred. However with the aid of the modern computer and by re-reading various books on the subject, I am now able to record events more clearly, but for what purpose? Mainly so that my recollections can be easily accessed for future reference and perhaps somebody else may find something of interest. My father served throughout the First World War and I now deeply regret not finding out more about his experiences.
In starting to write this I find it difficult to accept that the war started over sixty five years ago and must now be considered history, but here goes!
My first recollection connected with the forthcoming war was at a Biggin Hill flying day. Together with my parents we used to visit RAF Biggin Hill for their annual flying display, held to celebrate Empire Air Day and visited the last one on the 20th May 1938. Being very interested in aircraft I was well aware that the Germans had a modern air force and a very formidable new fighter, the Messerschmitt BF 109.
At the show we were treated to air displays by the squadron’s Gloster Gauntlets, Gladiators and other biplane aircraft. As I recall most of the show consisted of ancient biplanes, fighters and bombers, however we did have a fly past by our latest monoplane fighter, the Hawker Hurricane. On the ground we were allowed to see a closely guarded Hurricane and Spitfire! The Spitfire shown was evidently the first production model. Also featured were the latest additions to the RAF, a Wellington Bomber, a Blenheim and a new monoplane the Defiant. I remember leaving the show being very impressed with the Hurricane and Spitfire but also concerned that the squadron’s main aircraft was still the biplane Gauntlet, certainly no match for the Messerschmitt.
Gloster Gauntlets, top speed 230 mph Messerschmitt BF 109, top speed 350 mph
I had seen pictures showing the results of the German air force bombing villages in Spain,
(Spain’s civil war, 1936 to 1939) and was well aware what could be in store for us in the event of
Page 2
another war with Germany.
During this period I had attended various local schools catering for those children not evacuated, ending up at a local school called Morden Terrace. Eventually I was offered a place at the South East London Technical Institute (SELTI) and in September 1938 began a three year course in mechanical engineering.
To add some order to these recollections I have decided to place them in the order they happened, beginning with the day Germany invaded Czechoslovakia.
In March 1939 Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and then on the 1st September invaded
Poland. We gave Germany an ultimatum which they chose to ignore. As a result our Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain announced at 11am on the 3rd September 1939 that we were once again at war with Germany. France joined us as did most of the countries in the British Empire and the Commonwealth.
This was a very sombre occasion as my parent’s memories of the last war were still very fresh in their minds. Shortly afterwards the air raid siren sounded and we expected the worse, but fortunately it was a false alarm. We obtained our main information about the progress of the war from the radio, especially the evening 9 o’clock news. The BBC had decided to name its announcers so that we could distinguish them from imitations by the German propagandists. I still remember the start of the news which began “Here is the news, and this is Alvar Lidell reading it”.
The BBC news bulletins, although censored, gave us an idea of the progress of the war and generally determined how we felt. Initially we expected heavy bombing by the German air force but as this did not materialise we began to feel more confident.
The main evacuation of children from our cities commenced shortly afterwards, although the first evacuation had occurred at the time of the Munich Crisis, a year earlier.
Following the German invasion of Poland in 1939 the British Expeditionary Force was sent to France shortly after Britain and France had declared war on Germany. It was commanded by Lord Gort, who was under the command of the French General Maurice Gamelin. The BEF was considered to be a formidable fighting force and together with the huge French Army we had every reason to think the war would soon be over, however most of us were unaware of the political situation in France at the time. The senior French generals could not agree on a coordinated plan of attack, preferring to wait to see what the Germans would do. In the pre- war years the French had built a series of fortifications known as the Maginot Line and the Germans had built a similar one called the Siegfried Line. Most of the allied forces were sent to reinforce the Maginot Line against the expected German attack.
At this time the French had the largest army in Europe, with the support of a large air force and navy, however its Generals were mostly veterans of the First World War and consequently thought in terms of defeating an expected attack at the Maginot Line.
On the 14th October.1939 our battleship HMS Royal Oak was hit by 3 torpedoes and sunk with heavy loss of life, whilst at anchor in our Naval Base at Scapa Flow.
On the13th December.1939 we lost an aircraft carrier, HMS Courageous. I remember visiting this ship earlier in the year at a Royal Navy open day at Portsmouth and being impressed with its size. The German submarine U29 fired three torpedoes with two hitting the ship. It sunk in less than 15 minutes killing 518 of its crew, including the Captain. This was not a good start to the war!
German warships and in particular their pocket battleship Graf Spee, had been very active in sinking our merchant ships. The Graf Spee was eventually sighted by three of our cruisers, Ajax,
Achilles and Exeter and after a short engagement was eventually scuttled on the 13th December
1939 in what has since become known as the “Battle of the River Plate”. At last we had some good news which helped to cheer us up!
In 1939 Britain only grew enough food to feed one person in three and the German submarines and surface ships now threatened to starve the U.K. into defeat. But it was not just food, many other
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essential things had to be imported such as rubber, wood, crude oil etc, were now threatened.
Petrol (distilled from imported crude oil) was rationed soon after the war started and butter, sugar, bacon and meat rationed from January 1940. so even before the first signs of war in France we were already feeling the effects of the war.
HMS Courageous HMS Royal Oak
The first deployment of our forces was completed by the 11th October 1939 at which point 158,000 men and their equipment had been transported to France. It was lead by our General Lord Gort, aged 53, under the Supreme Commander of the French Army, General Maurice Gamelin, aged 68, both veterans of the First World War. The majority of his troops were stationed along the Franco-Belgian border at the Maginot Line. Belgium and Holland were not at war and so no troops were sent to them.
By September 1939 we had rapidly modernised our Air Force which now featured over 500 of the latest Hurricanes and Spitfires. Although still falling far short of the estimated strength of the German Luftwaffe, it was a considerable improvement on our resources in 1938, at the time of the Munich Crisis.
Most members of the French army were in the infantry. The first armoured divisions had just been formed but the first three would not be ready for action until the spring of 1940. At the start of
the war the French air force had 826 fighter planes, including 370 modem fighters capable of taking on the latest German fighter, the Messerschmitt 109. It also had over 400 modern bombers, plus a large navy featuring some very useful capital ships. By the spring of 1940 the French air force had increased to 740 modern fighters.
Over the next few months troops, materials and vehicles continued to be sent to France and by the 13th March 1940 the BEF had doubled in size to around 316,000 men, with further tanks, guns, ammunition and supplies including an initial RAF detachment of about 500 assorted aircraft. With our combined Forces it did not seem unreasonable to expect that we would quickly defeat the German army. . However after establishing our armies at the German frontier General Gamelin, instead of attacking, decided to wait to see what the Germans would do.
On the 1st January 1940, conscription began of all able-bodied men between the ages of 18 to 27, later this was increased to the age of 50. You were exempted if you could prove you were employed on vital war work. My brother, an apprentice printer aged 20, had already volunteered for the RAF. On completion of his training, as an airframe fitter, he was transferred to an RAF training airfield at Oudtshoorn in South Africa.
In early February we became aware of a German merchant ship called “Altmark” which we understood contained a number of crews from merchant ships sunk by the German pocket battleship
“Graf Spee”. We then learnt that it was located in neutral Norwegian waters, however, despite this,
on February 14th 1940 our destroyer HMS Cossack sailed into Jossing Fjord and with the call “OK
mates the Navy’s here” rescued 299 of our sailors. At last we had something to be proud of, but not for long!
It soon became apparent that Gamelin was not willing to engage in an attacking battle with the
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German army, somehow hoping this could be avoided. This indecision gave Hitler time to decide when and where to attack. When he was ready, on the 9th April 1940, Germany avoided the Maginot Line by invading neutral Denmark and Norway and then followed with the invasion of Holland, Belgium and then attacked France, avoiding the Maginot Line by going through Belgium.
This took the French generals completely by surprise as they were not expecting or prepared for this development and never recovered in sufficient time to confront the Germans with any great force. Without leadership the French morale soon crumbled under the sudden attack from the air and German armour.
The German advance had been achieved by the combined use of tanks, infantry and aircraft in what has become known as a blitzkrieg.The word, usually shortened to blitz, means a “lightning war” and is associated with a series of quick and decisive short battles aimed at creating fear and confusion in the opposing force and delivering a knockout blow before it could fully recover.
The German air force (Luftwaffe) played a very important part in this exercise using the Junkers 87 Stuka dive bomber to create panic and confusion in both the troops and retreating civilians.
Junkers JU 87 “Stuka” dive bomber
When the fighting in France finally began it soon became apparent that the majority of the French forces were already demoralised, due to bad leadership and political corruption and when the Luftwaffe started their bombing campaign the French army quickly disintegrated, leading the way open for immediate action by the German army. French troops were seen to throw away their guns and even discard their uniforms to join the fleeing civilians. There were even reports about some French pilots actually trying to prevent our aircraft from taking off for fear of reprisals, saying "why risk your life when the war is already lost".
On May 10th 1940 Chamberlain resigned due to ill health and Winston Churchill became our new Prime Minister, this despite some hostility from members of our government. Some, like the French, thought the war was already lost and that we should be talking with Hitler in an attempt to obtain the best terms for surrender. Fortunately Winston’s inspiring oratory resulted in a small majority in favour of us continuing to fight.
Without the full co-operation of the French forces and the almost immediate surrender of both Belgium and Holland, General Gort decided that our continued presence in France had become untenable and on the 26th May we began evacuating our troops from Dunkirk.
Although we managed to save 338,226 allied troops we had to leave all our supplies behind, including 615 tanks, 2,472 guns, 65,000 vehicles, 25,000 motorcycles, 416,000 tons of stores, 75,000 tons of ammunition and 162,000 tons of petrol. (These surprising and very precise figures have been obtained from historical records and demonstrate the extent of the disaster).
In just a few weeks Britain had gone from having one of the best equipped armies to being almost non-existent, and this without engaging the enemy in any major battle. We at home could not
believe it and wondered what disaster was going to happen to us next!
During the few weeks of actual fighting it has been estimated that the French lost 757 aircraft
(mostly on the ground) and two million French soldiers had surrendered. However some must have
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fought because the French lost nearly 94,000 dead with 250,000 wounded. The British lost 3,475 dead and 15,850 wounded, with many thousands taken prisoner.
General Lord Gort, commander of the BEF was subsequently criticized for his actions during the short French campaign, but most realised that without support from our allies he had little choice but
to withdraw. His subsequent actions meant that a high proportion of our troops were saved and thus able to fight again, but the loss of so much equipment was extremely serious.
While the RAF’s Hurricanes and Spitfires had already proven themselves against the German Luftwaffe the RAF had lost a considerable number of its valuable front line aircraft and experienced pilots. The operations in France cost the Royal Air Force a total of 959 aircraft, including 477 of its latest Hurricanes and Spitfires and other aircraft including bombers operating from UK. bases. Two hundred and eighty of our fighter pilots had lost their lives or had been taken prisoner.
Well aware of the speed with which Germany had just conquered most of Europe we wondered just how much time we had before Germany turned its attention to us. Before using its ground troops the German Air Force had softened up the target by intense bombing and we expected the same would happen to us. There were plenty of rumours about German agents (fifth column) being already here, the forerunner of an attack by German airborne soldiers. This was reinforced by the German radio frequently giving accurate reports about local conditions in the UK.
This waiting for the expected attack was unnerving while we waited for the sound of church bells, the warning that an invasion had began, however unlike the French and other Europeans we were prepared to defend our Country, although unsure what with! True we had a newly formed Home Guard, formed of civilians either unfit or too old to join the regular forces, armed with a variety of home made weapons and little else, apart from a display of British defiance!
We had heard frequent reports of atrocities being carried out by the Germans on prisoners and refugees which only hardened our resolve not to let them land. Our immediate problem was how were we were going to stop them? After Dunkirk we had no army and a depleted air force with only 331 modern Spitfires and Hurricanes to defend Britain from the expected invasion. If the Germans attacked Britain right away Dowding, who was in charge of Fighter Command, was concerned that his forces would be hard pushed to keep them at bay, and it was an immediate attack that was thought most likely.
Seeing the remnants of our army arriving back in the UK we had to accept how vulnerable our position had suddenly become. On the home front we were already suffering from the effects of both food and material shortages and with the fear of an invasion imminent our future suddenly looked very bleak When war was declared on September 3rd 1939, together with the considerable forces of France, we had every reason to expect a quick end to the war; however things had not gone according to plan and in just ten months we were facing defeat!
Like the French we had many people saying the situation was hopeless and that we should try to get the best possible terms for surrender, but unlike the French we now had a fighting Prime Minister in Winston Churchill. Through his broadcasts he encouraged us to keep our nerve and to fight on. Despite little resources he assured us that we could and would eventually win. Then to make matters worse, on the 10th June thinking the war would soon be over and wanting a share in the spoils, Italy declared war on us.
On the 22nd June Franc finally surrendered. All this happened within a few weeks from Germany commencing the ground war in Europe. We had no doubt what was in store for us and wondered how long we had before the invasion of our island. Winston Churchill, our new prime minister, then assured everybody that we would and could fight on. There can be no doubt that his attitude and speeches helped us to believe we still had a future, despite certain defeat staring us in the face. Unfortunately some modern historians find it difficult to accept the fact that without Churchill’s leadership our government, with some public support, may well have been seeking the best terms for surrender. People alive at this time will remember the importance of Churchill’s oratory on our morale; we trusted him and his leadership.
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Although the French Army was shattered, the French Navy was still very much intact. Darlan,
the Admiral of the French Fleet, had told Churchill that the Fleet would be sunk before it ccould be
surrendered to the Germans; however Churchill was not convinced. If the French Navy had fallen
into German hands the situation at sea would have become critical. Added to all our other problems this could have been the last straw.
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of Germany Winston Churchill, UK Prime
from 30th January 1933 to 30th April Minister from the10th May 1940
1945 until 26th July 1945
Churchill was therefore faced with a decision, either to trust that Darlan would and could keep his word or that events would quickly determine the result. On the 22nd June France finally surrendered and it was time for Churchill to decide what he had to do.
On the 1st of July Churchill, with the backing of our government, gave Darlan an immediate ultimatum regarding the fate of the French Navy. On the 3rd July the British surrounded the French Fleet at the port of Mers-el-Kebir right outside Oran, Algeria. Churchill's message was loud and clear, “sail to Britain, sail to the USA, or scuttle your ships within the next six hours, or we will be forced to take action”
At first the French refused to speak to our negotiators. Two hours later the French showed the British an order they had received from Admiral Darlan instructing them to sail the ships to the USA if the Germans broke the armistice and demanded the ships. Meanwhile the British had intercepted a message from the German sympathetic French Vichy Government ordering reinforcements to move urgently to Oran. This was not good news. "Settle everything before dark or you will have reinforcements to deal with” Churchill told them but received no reply. Churchill was left with no alternative other than to order an immediate attack on the French ships.
An hour and a half later the British Fleet attacked and in less than ten minutes, 1,297 French sailors were dead and three battleships sunk. One battleship and five destroyers managed to escape. We suffered no loss or damage.
While the French were furious over the events the reaction in England was the exact opposite. For the first time since taking over as Prime Minister Churchill received a unanimous standing
ovation in parliament. Churchill had a message for the British, for Hitler, and for the rest of the world and that message was heard loud and clear, England was prepared to fight on whatever
the outcome!
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Sometimes at weekends and evenings I cycled with a school friend to see what was happening
at our local airfield, RAF Biggin Hill. We had discovered a field in Downe which gave us a good view of the northern part of the airfield. The main road from Bromley to Westerham, which
previously passed through the airfield was now closed, the traffic being diverted through country lanes to Westerham.
From our vantage point we had a good view of the aircraft, which were mostly Hawker Hurricanes. The squadrons had been very active having been involved in the battle for France and our subsequent evacuation from Dunkirk. The aircraft and buildings had been camouflaged during September 1938 at the time of the Munich crisis, when Hurricanes slowly began to replace the Gauntlet biplane fighters. Although we saw little of the German air force it was evident that air battles had been occurring off the coast, from news we heard on the radio. The war news was not good, as we had already lost some of our capital ships and the German submarines were very active sinking our supply ships. The war was already beginning to have an effect on our well-being and we were very apprehensive as to what the future held in store for us.
From the 10th July, now recorded as the start of the “Battle of Britain”, the Germans carried out heavy raids on Falmouth, Swansea, Aberdeen and Cardiff. This was phase two of four phases in the German plan deemed essential to obtain air superiority prior to a successful invasion of our shores.
Phase 1: The Luftwaffe would attack our shipping in the channel to test our RAF’s response.
Phase 2: Eagle Attack, an attack on our air defences and southern towns.
Phase 3: The Attack on Airfields intending to destroy our RAF.
Phase 4: The Blitz, an attack on the civilians in London. causing them to seek a surrender.
Hitler was convinced that in our current situation our government would have no choice but to seek talks in order to secure the best terms for our surrender. By demonstrating the strength of his Luftwaffe Hitler hoped to speed these talks on their way.
On the 19th July Hitler gave us the last chance to surrender on his terms and on the 22nd July Lord Halifax responded by saying that we would continue to fight until we had secured freedom for us and others. This was good to hear, but did little to convince us that we had much left to continue the fight. All we had to stop the Germans was our Royal Navy and a depleted Royal Air Force. Up to now the RAF, mainly consisting of Hurricanes, had shown that they could compete against the Messerschmitt 109 and were more than a match for their bombers. We were aware that the German Luftwaffe had already shown itself to be a very formidable fighting force, much larger than anything we could offer. Our Royal Navy was busy protecting our merchant ships and was prepared for possible action against German capital ships.
At this stage I had personally seen little of the fighting, apart from watching news reels and hearing the news on the radio, both censored in our favour. However this all changed on the 18th August with the introduction of phase three of Hitler’s plan, with attacks on our air fields, including Biggin Hill.
Thirty bombers attacked the airfield causing damage to the motor transport sheds. Two airmen were killed and three wounded. A number of high explosive and delayed action bombs were dropped on the airfield, but it remained operational. Three further raids occurred on the airfield on the 22/23rdAugust and the following two days, but the airfield didn’t suffer any further damage. I was unaware of these raids when, with a school friend, we decided to visit the airfield on Saturday the 30th August.
I remember it was a sunny evening and, with my friend Ron Poole, decided to cycle to our local airfield to see what was going on. We arrived about 5.30 and settled in at our usual place. Nothing much appeared to be going on apart from a few Hurricanes being refuelled when suddenly we saw many aircraft coming in very low and then things began to happen. We heard the rattle of machine guns and then the deafening sound of bombs exploding, much too close for our comfort. The noise was terrific and in a very short time our airfield was in a mess with planes and vehicles burning
everywhere. There had been was no warning that anything unusual was about to happen, but in a
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few moments the scene had changed and the airfield was now in a mess, with fires, explosions and the noise of fire bells and smoke and dust covering the airfield.
When we first saw the aircraft we thought they were Blenheims, but soon became disillusioned! After the initial shock we decided it was time to leave and didn’t visit the airfield for some time after
that.
An official report of the raid reads as follows:
“Saturday August 31st 1940 at 1800 hours.
For the second time that day Biggin Hill was bombed and almost put out of action. Oil tanks were hit and set ablaze, the main electricity cable was hit and cut the power lines to all buildings. With hangars and roadways cratered it was anticipated that the airfield would be out of action for at least two days.
Nine Ju88 bombers had managed to get through the British defences taking everybody by surprise and struck Biggin Hill with a low level bombing attack, dropping 1000 lb bombs and causing mayhem. The transport yard was destroyed, storerooms, the armoury and both officers and sergeants messes were severely damaged, two hangars had been wrecked earlier in the day and now another hanger was almost flattened and on top of all that telephone and communication lines were severed and gas and water mains ruptured. Casualties amounted to thirty-nine personnel killed and thirty five injured”.
Raids continued on the airfield until the 20th April 1941, a total of 25 causing considerable damage. 42 personnel were killed during the raids with many injured. Biggin Hill was considered a very important target by the Germans, but remained operational throughout the war. During this period the weather was very good and we watched many contrails in the sky, caused by the fighting aircraft and sometimes heard machine and cannon fire. The good news was that we were told we were winning the battle.
On the 7th September the Germans put into action phase three of their plan to terrorise the civilian population and, as a result, force our Government into suing for peace. The German Luftwaffe switched their attack from the RAF airfields and attacked London, which became the official start of the “Blitz.” This was very fortunate as it allowed the RAF to recover, but not so good for the Londoners. This switch of the German attacks away from our airfields has been considered by historians as a great German blunder that may well have lost them the war.
On Sunday the 15th September1940 we were informed that we had shot down 183 aircraft for the loss of only 30, good news indeed. In fact actual figures compiled after the war showed that we had destroyed 56 for the loss of 26. However it was apparent that the Germans could not sustain these losses, especially the loss of their experienced aircrew.
In the meantime our bombers had been attacking the embarkation ports and destroying their invasion barges. Goring had promised Hitler that the RAF would be destroyed in a maximum of three weeks, allowing the invasion to take place. This obviously was not happening and Hitler decided to delay the invasion and to concentrate on the invasion of Russia. Unfortunately we did not know this at the time and still thought that the expected invasion could still occur at any moment.
History shows that although we had lost a lot of aircraft, the loss of experienced pilots was more serious. The figures showed that the situation, prior to switching the attacks away from our airfields,
was such that our RAF would have been unable to continue for much longer, perhaps days at the most!
While the critical Battle of Britain officially commenced on the 10th July 1940 and ended on the 31st October, the air raids and destruction continued long afterwards. However for me the real Battle of Britain began on the 26th May 1940, when our troops began to arrive back from Dunkirk, and didn’t end until the fear of an invasion had receded, when the Germans invaded Russia on the 22nd June 1941. This was the period when I felt we could and probably would lose the war.
Phase four of Hitler’s invasion plan began on the 6th of October and continued until the 31st of
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October. As the long hot summer ran into October the German daylight bomber losses became too heavy to sustain, and they started to operate only at night.
The London Blitz started on the 7th of September 1940 and continued until the 19th of May 1941, for 76 consecutive nights, resulting in over a million London houses being destroyed or damaged. During this period many of our other cities were also attacked, resulting in further damage and loss
of life. Coventry, for instance, was almost completely destroyed on the 13th November 1940. In one night, more than 4,000 homes were destroyed, along with around three quarters of the cities
factories. There was barely an undamaged building left in the city centre. Two hospitals, two churches and a police station were also among the damaged buildings. More than 600 people were killed and over 1,000 had been badly injured.
The Blitz had killed at least 60,575 with 86,182 wounded; however the bombing had not achieved Hitler’s intended goal of demoralizing the British into surrender and by June 1941 the threat of an invasion of Britain had passed. Hitler had by this time realised that the British were not going to be terrorized into accepting defeat, as had happened to the rest of Europe. He then turned his attention to attacking Russia and the Battle of Britain was finally over and Germany finally conceded that she had not won the battle to gain air supremacy necessary for an invasion of our island, despite all the odds being in her favour.
When the Battle of Britain officially ended, figures obtained after the war showed Germany had lost 1389 aircraft with 643 badly damaged. As the battle took part over the UK, most of the German aircrew shot down were either killed or became prisoners. We lost 792 aircraft shot down and a considerable number destroyed on the ground. Apparently the loss in aircraft was never serious as these were being replaced. However the loss of experienced pilots was crucial. We had lost 544 pilots killed, with a large number seriously wounded. This represented a very high proportion of the pilots available to continue the battle. It was calculated that if these losses continued the RAF would soon be put out of action, perhaps in days.
What did the battle achieve? The answer is very simple; it prevented the Germans from
obtaining air superiority, allowing us to remain in the war. If we had lost the battle the Germans may well have invaded and we would have had very little to stop them. We would then have become another member of the Third Reich! Some youngsters may well ask would this have been a bad thing? To this I would say look at what had happened to those countries already under German rule and if you really care, take the time to study the considerable amount of documentary evidence available. If this was done then I am quite certain the question would not arise. We should never forget the debt we owe to those who lost their lives fighting the “Battle of Britain” and remember the considerable part my local airfield, Biggin Hill, contributed to winning this battle.
At the start of the Blitz my brother was in Africa, my father was working at the Evening Standard, a newspaper owned by Lord Beaverbrook, and my mother was working part time at the Dockhead School, Bermondsey, where Tommy Steele (aged about 6) was a pupil. We kept chickens in the garden and I had a mongrel dog called Raff and a pet tortoise. My father was trained in first aid and was an air raid warden. Food was in short supply as was clothing and other items considered essential for a normal existence. We still thought invasion was imminent and generally felt very depressed with the war news.
Frequent telegrams were arriving indicating the loss of loved ones. Two of my brother’s friends in the RAF had already been killed and my parents talked of others they knew who were no longer with us. A lot had already happened before the first bombs had fallen on London, mostly bad news, all contributing to our general depression.
Some house-holders had an Anderson shelter. The Anderson shelter was designed to go in a garden and over one million were issued by the end of 1938. Eventually over 2.5 million were issued, free to people earning less than £250 per year, otherwise the cost was £7. They measured 6.5 ft. by 4.5 ft. and consisted of curved corrugated iron sheets. They had to be sunk 3 ft. in the ground
and covered with earth and sandbags, the front entrance had a sandbag blast wall. They were
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designed to accommodate 4 to 6 people. They were cold, draughty and damp, but nevertheless saved a lot of lives. They were usually lit by paraffin oil lamps and unheated. Like most things paraffin, candles and batteries were all in short supply. Everything needed for creature comfort seemed to be unavailable; “after all there is a war on” we were told
My father had strengthened our cellar and placed planks of wood on which we tried to sleep. It had electric light, but very few other luxuries. For the first weeks the Germans seemed to do as they pleased, with little opposition. We heard a few anti-aircraft guns firing, but saw little of any real
opposition from our fighters. On most days and nights we heard bombs exploding and the bells of rescue lorries. The next day we saw damaged houses and heard about people being killed and
wounded. This was mostly by word of mouth as the news on our radio and newspapers were
censured. If we listened to the German radio an Irishman, William Joyce, known by us as “Lord Haw Haw“ gave his version of the air raids. In the evening we listened to the radio and sometimes played card games or Monopoly.
I remember my mother frequently joining a queue, although mostly she had no idea what she was queuing for. It didn’t matter, if it was still available when she got to the head of the queue she bought it anyway. A sausage, rabbit or even offal was considered a luxury. Lack of essential food was becoming a problem, even fruit and vegetables were now in short supply.
The actual Blitz has been very well documented, so I will only comment on my experience. I spent a lot of my school attendance in their air raid shelter. Sometimes I accompanied my mother shopping at Lewisham and Catford, but nearly always spent some time in a convenient surface shelter. We later heard that these were not safe. They were constructed with a brick wall and a heavy concrete roof. Consequently if a bomb landed nearby the blast could cause the walls to collapse and the heavy roof fall on the people inside. We had heard of deaths so caused, but with bombs exploding near by it somehow seemed safer to get under cover. Incendiary bombs were falling everywhere and to make life even more exciting, the Germans added a device which caused the incendiary bomb to explode, causing an extra hazard.
Eventually we had more anti-aircraft guns and these brought another danger, that of falling shrapnel. I remember my father saying that there was more chance of being hit on the head with
a piece of hot shrapnel than being hit with a bomb! One thing I recall is that our Navy brought some ships up the Thames to assist the London anti-aircraft guns. Cycling to Greenwich I remember seeing a destroyer which we were informed was the famous “Cossack,” the destroyer which had achieved fame when it had rescued our merchant sailors from the German prison ship, “Altmark”.
The London Blitz officially ended on the 19th May 1941 but we were unaware of this at the time
and still expected the raids to continue. The Germans had decided to halt the bombing when it
became apparent that bombing alone was unlikely to cause the British civilians to request their Government to surrender. The Germans apparently could not understand this as bombing civilians, or even the threat of bombing had worked very successfully before, as in Belgium, Holland and France.
During the Blitz on London more than 36,000 bombs had fallen, killing 12,696 with over 20,000 seriously injured. More than a million homes had been demolished and many more badly damaged. Germany had hoped that the civilian population would be forced to surrender, but I was not aware of any such feeling. Hitler had certainly made us very angry, but all this did was to make us more determined to continue the fight. Unfortunately we civilians had nothing with which to fight back, however it helped boost our morale when we heard that our bombers were active over Germany, especially when they bombed Berlin!
When I hear people calling our bomber boys murderers I despair, how can they ignore the fact that the Germans were the first to bomb civilians and then to ignore the indiscriminate blanket bombing of our cities, with the intention of destroying the morale of its citizens?
Fire watching had now been introduced and employees became responsible for detecting fires
in their buildings. My father had to spend several nights a week on fire duty. Those of us who
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ventured out at night had to contend with the black out. It was almost impossible to see
anything. In the winter houses and factories burnt a very sub-standard coal called nutty slack, this resulted in a sulphurous gas called smog. It was far from pleasant when this was added to fog and the blackout. Despite the London Blitz being very well documented I feel it is necessary to list a few of the instances in order to show the result of some of these raids.
On the 7th September 1940 300 bombers accompanied by over 600 fighters bombed the London docks and central London, starting over 1,000 individual fires and causing a considerable amount of
damage; 430 people were killed and over a thousand seriously injured. The fires were clearly visible by me in Lewisham.
17th September Marble Arch underground station received a direct hit, killing 17 and injuring
many others. By mid October well over 250,000 Londoners had been made homeless.
11th January 1941 the Bank underground station received a direct hit and killed 117 and
left hundreds seriously injured.
19th March 500 bombers accompanied by a large number of fighters attacked the docks and central London. 750 were killed and over 1,000 injured.
16th April 685 bombers accompanied by 700 plus fighters dropped a large number of high
explosive bombs and incendiaries causing more than 2,000 individual fires. Over 1,000 were killed and many more seriously injured. The all clear sounded at 6 am on Sunday morning when over 700 acres of London had suffered severe bomb damage, with 11,000 homes destroyed or badly damaged.
The bombing had extended as far as Lewisham, Deptford and Croydon. Main line railway stations had been put out of action, including Waterloo and thousands of streets made impassable. Over 600 water mains were broken and the supply of gas and electricity badly disrupted. Telephone lines were broken, adding to the communication problems of essential services. The last fires were finally extinguished four days later. We could clearly see the fires at the docks from Lewisham and heard the sound of bombs dropping ever closer. The Germans seemed to proceed unhindered with little anti aircraft fire or the presence of any of our night fighters. Next day we discovered more wrecked and damaged houses close to where we lived. It took several weeks before services were back to some normality. Fortunately there were few follow-up raids to disrupt the necessary repair and salvage operations.
Although the above lists only some of the serious events even a single person killed would cause hurt and despair to the family affected. During every raid I wondered if I would survive or if I should suffer a serious injury, a loss of a limb or eyesight.
After the raid, those of us not directly affected just carried on as usual. Somehow we were grateful to still be alive and determined to make the most of the next day, after all what else could we do? I think most of us felt that if we could only survive the present day, tomorrow had to be better or perhaps the next day! The last thing we wanted was for the Germans to win. We were pleased every time we heard our bombers had raided Germany, but concerned to hear of our inevitable losses.
The Churchill broadcasts helped tremendously by strengthening our morale. The radio and newspapers also helped by concentrating on whatever good news they could find and censoring the bad. We were certainly not enjoying life and wondering just how much more we could take when suddenly Hitler decided to turn his attention towards attacking Russia, in order to gain access to its oil, mineral and other resources. Hitler expected it to be a quick victory and it nearly was until the Russian winter took a hand. While this saw the end of the concentrated raids, the bombing of civilians still continued.
During the Blitz my father and his crew were busy dealing with incendiaries, while the experts dealt with the unexploded high explosives, sometimes with tragic results. We owed a lot to them
and many others, especially the firemen and ambulance drivers who regularly risked their lives and to the women who were seen driving the rescue vehicles and helping in so many other ways. In one
of the raids, just before Christmas, I lost a cousin Olive who was an ambulance driver. It was
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amazing that so many people were ready to risk their lives while helping others, the events certainly brought out the best in people.
The Italians had a formidable navy based at Taranto, in the Mediterranean and on our navy decided it was time to do something about it in what has become known as the Battle of Taranto.
On the night of 11/12th November 1940 our Royal Navy launched the first all-aircraft ship-to-ship naval attack in history, flying a small number of obsolescent Fairy Swordfish biplane torpedo bombers from an aircraft carrier, the HMS Illustrious.
The first wave of 12 aircraft left Illustrious just before 21:00 hours on 11th November 1940, followed by a second wave of nine about 90 minutes later. Of the second wave, one turned back
with a problem with its auxiliary fuel tank and another launched 20 minutes late following
emergency repairs to damage from a minor taxiing accident. We lost two aircraft shot down.
The devastation wrought by the British carrier-launched aircraft on the large Italian warships was the beginning of the rise of the power of naval aviation, over the big guns of battleships and was subsequently copied by the Japanese on Pearl Harbour. The Italian fleet lost about half its strength in one night, and the next day the Italians transferred its undamaged ships from Taranto to Naples to protect them from similar attacks. This was news we badly needed to hear!
Fairy Swordfish
In April 1941 Germany launched their African offensive and invaded Yugoslavia and Greece. Then on the 24th May we heard that our most famous capital ship, HMS Hood had been sunk during an engagement with the German battleship, Bismarck. The Hood had a crew of over 1,700 and only 3 survived, we couldn’t believe it! Later we heard that Winston Churchill ordered the Bismarck to be sunk at all costs and on the 27th May it was! Nevertheless we couldn’t help wondering what was wrong with our warships. We knew our Navy was doing an excellent job protecting our merchant ships from submarine attacks, but when faced with the more modern German surface ships and attacks from the air the results were not so encouraging.
Now a teenager I was well aware that my schooling was seriously lacking, although by experience I had learnt about the things that really mattered, the help and friendship of others when most needed. Wealth and status meant little in an ir raid we were all equal, just people trying to survive.
In May 1941, aged 14, I had finished my three years at SELTI and went to work at the Redwing Aircraft Company in Croydon. I was shown how to rivet fuel tanks for Wellington bombers, but the interest did not last long. I sought something more interesting and, on the 17th June, joined the No.1 Maintenance Unit and Barrage Balloon Centre at RAF Kidbrooke as a Trade Lad, on a seven year mechanical engineering apprenticeship. This was also the home of the RAF Skyrockets Dance Orchestra conducted by Paul Fenhoulet and my introduction to dance and swing music.
If I remember correctly I started work at 7.30 until 5.30 and on Saturdays until 12.30, to complete a 50 hour week. We had a ten minute break in the morning and afternoon where we were allowed to sit down. I remember my wage was 17shillings and sixpence (85 p). I worked with a
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Rolls Royce fitter who had recently returned from fighting in Africa. He had been with the 8th army as a gunner in a tank and had suffered ear trouble. When told he had Gunner’s Ear he was puzzled as he thought the doctor had said Gonorrhoea! Our job was to repair damaged Merlin aero engines.
Being a reasonable distance from where I lived meant that I could cycle to work; this in itself could be quite eventful, as I remember arriving at work in a very dishevelled state after cycling into a recently created bomb crater. Cycle and car lamps had to be hooded to prevent any light escaping upwards; unfortunately this also prevented most of the light reaching the ground!
On the 22nd June 1941 Germany invaded Russia. June also saw the start of clothes rationing and the utility system for retail goods. In November, unmarried women aged 20 to 30 were conscripted into the services or other war work. By mid 1943 most single women, between the ages of
20 and 40 were conscripted into the forces or industry. My uncle Reg had to report for work in the
building and repair industry, this meant that he was away from home for considerable periods, his wife Ethel was detailed to work in the local laundry. Apart from young men away in the services we now had families broken up by older members being detailed to join various civilian services on war work. While not affecting my parents or me directly, it did add another concern.
By the end of the year food had become a major problem and we were all feeling the effects of
rationing, this had begun in January 1940. We had been issued with a food ration card and had to
register to buy food from a specific shop. The shop was then issued with the relevant amount
of food for the number of registered customers. However, as food was in short supply, the shops often did not receive enough for all their customers. News that a delivery had arrived at the shop
spread fast and long queues soon formed as everyone was keen to get their share before it was all
sold.
Each person’s weekly allowance was 4 oz of bacon and ham, 2 oz of butter and 8 oz of sugar. In March meat was added to the value of 1 shilling and 6 pence (6p) and. over the next two years other foods added including 1 fresh egg, 1 packet of dried eggs every 4 weeks, 4oz of margarine, 2 oz of cheese, 2 oz of tea, three pints of milk, 1 pound of jam every eight weeks and12 oz of sweets every four weeks.
Other foods rationed between 1940 and 1942 included dried fruit, canned fruit, rice, cooking fat, biscuits and breakfast cereals, while some foods such as potatoes, onions and fish were not rationed but difficult to obtain. Fresh fruit was also in short supply but was not rationed. Only fruit which could be grown in Britain, such as apples, pears, raspberries, blackberries and strawberries were sometimes available. Imported fruit such as bananas, oranges and peaches were not available in the shops.
Clothes and furnishings were rationed on a points system, in1943 we were each allowed 66 points a year, reduced to 48 in 1942, 36 in ’43 and 24 by the end of the war. A man’s overcoat took 18 coupons, a suit 26 and shoes 9, a woman’s simple dress took 11 and her shoes 7. Children aged 14 to16 got 20 more coupons. However we had a flourishing black market run by “spivs” who managed to obtain most things to be sold at an inflated price.
As well as food and clothing many other items were in short supply. A utility range of household furniture was introduced. The items were plain, functional and hard-wearing, but the only option for people who had lost their homes in the bombing and for newly married couples setting up their first home.
Canteen food was not very appetizing and I remember frequently feeling very uncomfortable after a cooked meal, so mostly stuck to salads or things that I could recognise. In restaurants a meal was limited to five shillings (25p) and could not have more than three courses; with meat and fish unable to be served at the same sitting.
Establishments known as British Restaurants appeared and were run by local authorities, who set them up in schools and church halls, intended as a temporary emergency system for feeding those who had been bombed out. By mid 1941 the London County Council was operating 200 of these restaurants and from 1942 to 1944 there were around 2,000 of them open to anybody. They
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proved very popular and greatly appreciated as a three course meal cost only nine pence (4p in new money).When I used them I had no complaints and found the meal better than some others I had experienced.
Despite the end of the blitz raids by German bombers and fighter bombers continued to cause damage and disruption. Barely a day or night passed without the sound of an air raid warning.
After two years at Kidbrooke I realised that at the end of a seven year apprenticeship the best I could hope for was to end up as a competent fitter, not what I wanted. Somehow I managed to get an interview with the station commander, Wing Commander Clapp, to ask if it would be possible to have my apprenticeship transferred to an aircraft Company, I was 16 at the time! Surprisingly he found time to talk with me and agreed to consider a transfer if I could find an aircraft company to take me. As a result in June 1943, my apprenticeship was transferred to the famous de Havilland Aircraft Company and after a year training in their technical school started work in their engine division at Edgware. The journey from my home in Lewisham was daunting to say the least, Lewisham to London Bridge station, then underground to Edgware followed by a fifteen minute walk to their works at Stag Lane, to clock in at 7.30 am.
I remember people sleeping on the underground platforms and the smell; there were no proper toilets, the smoke filled railway carriages with the windows heavily taped and shut during the blackout, the crowded trains and delays caused by enemy action, the smog and frequently travelling next to somebody being sick, this was all part of the war as I remember it! Despite the problems of getting to work we, apart from office staff, had to clock in and five minutes after starting time the
clock cards would be removed. After that you had to ask the foreman for permission to start work and pay was then deducted per quarter of an hour.
.
Sleeping in the underground stations
I joined the Air Training Corp shortly after it was formed and particularly enjoyed the weeks spent at RAF airfields. For a week we became part of the airfield’s wartime routine, hopeful for a
chance of a flight. During my stay in the ATC I had visited three RAF airfields, at Odiham, Wing and Holmsley South, enjoying flights in six aircraft, a Cygnet, Lysander, Wellington, Ventura, Tiger Moth and Dakota. .
The Commanding Officer at Wing was Wing Commander Lionel Van Praag, a speedway rider I remembered from the pre-war days when I had regularly visited the New Cross Speedway with my father. Lionel won the Speedway World Championship in 1936 riding against Eric Langton and I can still remember the event. Many years later I met a WAAF officer who in 1942 was stationed at Wing, she was surprised that I had even heard of Wing let alone knew the Station Commander’s name!
In March 1941 a new shelter appeared, the Morrison. This was a steel structure designed to hold 2 to 3 people lying down. It had a thick steel roof with open wire sides and intended to be used as a
table. It was not very popular and could be a death-trap if the building collapsed on it. Figures
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revealed that in November 1940 the majority of Londoners were not using special shelters, 27% used the Anderson, 9% public shelters and 4% used the tube stations the rest, including me, slept in their homes.
On December 7th 1941 Japan bombed Pearl Harbour and at last America was forced into the war. A few days later, on the 10th December, we were shocked to hear that Japanese aircraft had sunk two of our capital ships, our latest battleship the “Prince of Wales” and our battle cruiser “Repulse”, few of the crew were saved. Would the bad news never end?
The first US infantry troops of around four thousand men arrived in Britain on January 26th, 1942 and eventually swelled to more than 1.5 million. We began to see the first of the Americans
and I was not particularly keen on what I saw. To me they appeared brash and cocky, wore smart
uniforms and had plenty of money to spend. It was obvious that they had not just endured three years of war! Not surprisingly they were just what our girls wanted; with their boy friends and husbands away they were not concerned at being seen in the arms of the GI’s. It may be significant that the Ministry of Health launched a campaign to warn the public against Venereal Disease shortly after the GI’s arrived!
Prince of Wales Crew 1,600 plus Repulse Crew 1,000 plus
Commissioned 19th January 1941
Venereal disease I am sure was news to most of us, it certainly was to me. My main contact with girls had been in the factories and I was not impressed. These were girls who had been conscripted for war work and away from home for the first time. Sex seemed to be their main topic and they delighted in embarrassing young apprentices with suggestive talk and displays of naked flesh.
With the shortage of suitable male partners many of the girls had apparently formed liaisons with other females and appeared not to be concerned when caught in comprising positions. Some men working in the factories had recently returned from our Forces and were not impressed to see how their wives might have behaved when they were away. I was reassured to learn that my colleagues also felt uncomfortable when in the company of these girls, especially when serving time in the work shops.
It may have been noticed that I have not mentioned our Army apart from their evacuation from Dunkirk. The simple reason s is that there was very little good news to report and to make matters worse, on the 15th February 1942 General Percival surrendered Singapore to the Japanese in what has been described as the worst and largest capitulation in British history.
In only seven days of fighting Singapore was surrendered and about. 80,000 of our troops joined the 50,000 British, Australian and Indian troops already captured during the disastrous Malayan Campaign. The Japanese treated our troops with appalling cruelty and inhumanity, many dying in captivity. Churchill was not amused and confirmed our opinion that something was seriously wrong with our generals.
October 1942, at last we had the prospect of good news when General Montgomery commenced the greatest bombardment in history with a surprise attack on the German army in North Africa,
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This started on the evening of 23rd October and, together with the RAF, eventually resulted in the end of Rommel’s African Campaign.
Sometime in November, about 3 o’clock in the morning, I remember it was cold and raining, our house at 43 Overcliff Road, Lewisham received a direct hit. My Aunt Ethel and Uncle Reg were staying with us as their flat in nearby Brockley had been badly damaged. We prepared for bed soon after listening to the 9 o’clock news, the siren had already sounded and we could hear the usual noise of aircraft, anti-aircraft guns and bombs dropping in the distance. We tried to sleep in old clothes on wooden planks covered by a blanket. The planks were placed both sides of the cellar accommodating the five of us. With a supply of coal at the far end of the cellar the air was far from fresh. At the time we were hit, although I was awake (the noise of an air raid did not encourage
sleep) I cannot remember hearing the actual explosion of the bomb, but became aware that I was
suddenly in darkness and covered in dust and rubble. It was completely dark, I heard my father calling to hear if we were all right and we all replied saying we were. Evidently both my mother and aunt said that they couldn’t move because they were covered in debris. I was still lying on the wooden planks but found it was difficult to move and breathe because of the dust and rubble.
My uncle had been in the garden to have a smoke and said he clearly remembered hearing the sound of bombs dropping and then reaching the top of the cellar stairs, but little else. He landed on top of my father. My father was asking us to turn off the gas. Something was lying on my legs and I discovered it was the gas meter. I could smell gas and hear water running but was disorientated and couldn’t find the tap to turn off the gas.
I cannot remember how long we lay there, but the next thing I remember was hearing somebody asking if we were all right. A torch shone and soon people were lifting us out. We stood in a rubble
strewn road, in the wet and darkness, but could not see our house! Luckily apart from some cuts and bruises we were all in one piece. I remember feeling thankful that we were all alive but feeling very cold, wet and dirty. There seemed to be a lot of people speaking and helping us and the next thing I remember was being taken to a disused snooker hall in nearby Catford, which was being used as a rescue centre. My memory is vague as to what exactly happened next, but somehow we ended up with a mug of hot tea and clean dry clothes.
My next memory is going back with my father to see what could be rescued. I was surprised to see our house was just a heap of rubble, the house and the adjoining house, number 45 had just gone! Where our garden should have been was a big hole. No chickens, tortoise or dog. We could not even discover the cellar door or the stairs leading to the cellar. How we had survived was incredible, there was nothing left to save!
My uncle said he believed my dog was in the garden with him but despite hoping that somehow he had survived we never saw him again. It was like losing a member of my family and somehow I felt responsible.
A lot of our elderly neighbours had moved into the country and their empty houses were commandeered by the council. We were given one of these houses as temporary accommodation, but we did not realise how temporary it was going to be! A week later a bomb had fallen nearby and the house was declared unsafe. We were then given another house, where we managed to stay for the rest of the war, despite replacing windows and other damage.
During the Blitz and early part of the war we listened to the radio which featured plenty of dance music and variety shows, but I cannot remember hearing any American bands, including Glen Miller. My first introduction to Glen Miller was probably at the cinema. Miller and his band appeared in two Twentieth Century Fox films, in 1941's Sun Valley Serenade and 1942's Orchestra Wives. I remember buying a 78 rpm recording of Joe Loss playing In the Mood which became a UK’s best seller, but this was probably after the Blitz. At the beginning of the war, all cinemas were main introduction to American bands came from listening to radio broadcasts from the American however this did not last very long and most cinemas had re- opened by the time of the Blitz. My
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main introduction to American bands came from listening to radio broadcasts from the American Forces Network; however this didn’t start until July 4th, 1943.
Air raids continued to have an effect on our lives. The raids were being carried out mostly by fighter bombers. These came in very fast and frequently without warning. At 12.30 on Wednesday afternoon of the 20th January 1943, several Focke Wulf 190’s fighter bombers came in fast and low (the balloon barrage was down) and without warning began machine gunning the streets in Lewisham. Many people reported near misses, including my father who was coming home for lunch. As the aircraft flew overhead machine gun bullets hit the houses and streets. My father said that he was aware of the sudden noise of the aircraft but they flashed past too quickly to see much else. They eventually dropped their bombs on a school at Sangley Road, Catford, killing 38 children and 6 teachers. 60 children were seriously injured. The air raids and killing had not stopped with the Blitz.
I recently read in a local newspaper of eye-witness accounts of how the Germans had especially
targeted the school and people remembering seeing the pilots waving as they flew overhead! One woman who was having her hair done heard the noise of the aircraft and rushed outside to see the Germans circling and targeting the children in the playground.
The school was in a built up area and the aircraft were flying very low at over 300 mph, which is 440 feet per second, so the aircraft would have been visible for only a fraction of a second, assuming you were looking in the right direction at the time. It makes no sense that the pilots would risk their lives just to target a school, despite how we felt about them at the time. While these reports may make interesting reading I don’t see the value in reporting incidences that obviously cannot be true.
The result of five years bombing was to be seen everywhere. While the streets were cleaned, nothing could be done to hide the damaged and demolished buildings. On the 3rd March 1943 there occurred the greatest loss of life in one single incident. On that day there had been 10 raids on London and at 8.17 pm the alert sounded at Bethnel Green. In the tube station 500 people were already installed. It was raining and the entrance to the station dimly lit with only a 25 watt bulb. The stairs were wet and slippery. A large number of people were approaching the station when the local “Z” anti-aircraft battalion fired 60 rockets. The noise was deafening and caused an estimated 1,500 people to surge towards the entrance to the station. Somebody slipped and people behind fell down the stairs crushing those below. This resulted in 173 people being killed, including 62 children. There were also a large number of serious injuries.
6th June1944 was D day when we landed back in France. At last the end of the war appeared in sight. By this time we were really feeling the effects of the war, the shortage of food, clothing, loss of loved ones, the long working hours with little time for relaxation and the uncertainty as to what the future would hold. Would this end in disaster? Historians are fortunate in that they are able to review events knowing the result, whereas those actually living the event did not. Unfortunately many of today’s representations of events in the war do not portray them as I and other veterans, remember.
While we were hoping that the war would soon be over we were in for another shock. On
June 13th 1944 the first of Hitler’s revenge weapons hit London, landing at Hackney and killing six. The V1 flying bomb (Doodlebug) carried one ton of high explosive and no pilot. It flew at about 350 mph. By the end of August over 3,000 had been launched with 500 hitting the South East of England and London. They landed at any time, day or night. Eventually the flying bombs were intercepted by our fighters, anti-aircraft guns and barrage balloons, the launching sites receiving the attention of our bombers.
I am disgusted how some today are all too ready to criticise the supreme effort made by the bomber arm of our air force. Flying in a British bomber during World War Two was one of the most dangerous jobs imaginable. 55,000 aircrew died during the war with many more taken prisoner, the highest loss rate of any major branch of the British armed forces. Yet there is no official campaign
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medal commemorating the sacrifices of these men. It is seldom mentioned that we lost over 2,000 American and British air crew during the bombing the launch and development sites of the V weapons. Those bombs which did get through caused a tremendous amount of blast damage. We listened for the V1’s engine to stop and knew that we had only seconds to wait for the explosion. When the sites were overrun the flying bombs were launched from the air by Heinkel bombers.
The flying bombs killed 8,938 with an estimated 25,000 seriously injured. Lewisham came third on the list of hits with 114; Croydon came top of the list with l4l and Wandsworth second with 122.
The original German plan was to launch 200 bombs an hour, but the most they ever achieved was 200 a day, but this was enough to severely dent our morale! People were leaving London in huge numbers. In mid July 1944 15,000 were estimated to be leaving the main London stations a day! Between 1.5 and 2 million people had left during the summer, which had been particularly wet and cold. Many businesses and Civil Service departments were evacuated and the absence of people
became noticeable, especially to those having to travel through London. Some of the worst incidents
occurred in South East London, close to Lewisham where I lived. I recall one event which occurred on my mother’s shopping day.
Friday the 28th July at 9.41 a V1 bomb landed at the Lewisham market, killing 59 with 124 seriously injured. The resulting blast destroyed and badly damaged over a hundred shops, flats and houses. It came as a great shock to see so much damage where our local shopping centre had once been. Everybody seemed to know somebody who had either been killed or seriously wounded.
My mother went shopping as usual in the afternoon, unaware that her shopping centre had been
demolished. She didn’t do much shopping that day and had a harrowing story to tell when I arrived home in the evening.
Lewisham market after being hit by a flying bomb on the 28th
July 1944
8th September 1944 the first V2 rocket landed in Chiswick, killing 3 with 17 injured. The
rocket hit at about 3000 mph, with no warning. It carried a ton of high explosive and the impact caused a deep penetration. The effect was like a mini earthquake, with damage being recorded up to a quarter of a mile away.
The high death rate was mainly caused by the lack of any warning. Some of the worst tragedies again occurring in South East London, many close to where I lived.
Over 500 were killed and many more injured in just 14 instances, with the worst one occurring at New Cross on the 15th November, when a rocket landed on a Woolworths store killing 173 and
leaving many more seriously injured. I lost another cousin, Joyce.
27th March 1944 was the last day of the rocket attacks, unfortunately one of the final rockets
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fell on Hughes Mansions, in Vallence Road, Stepney, killing 134 and seriously injuring many
others. The last rocket fell in Orpington on the same day and the final flying bomb in
Swanscombe the next day. The intention of the V weapons was to kill and wound civilians in the hope that it would destroy their morale, but it didn’t happen and future generations should realise this and that they owe their freedom to this generation.
The later attacks affected us even more; because they were unexpected and by this time we were feeling very exhausted and thinking the war would never end, and then on the 30th April we heard that Hitler had committed suicide.
On the 7th May 1945 Hitler's successor, Admiral Donitz, offered an unconditional surrender to the allies and on the 8th May we celebrated Victory in Europe day. On Monday the 7th May 1945 Germany finally surrendered and at last the European war was over. We officially celebrated victory with a holiday on the following day, called Victory in Europe day or VE day. What happened on
this particular day? Did we all get drunk and dance around merrily? I saw little evidence of that. It
is true that there were thanksgiving services, victory salutes and impromptu street concerts, but the majority of us were just thankful that we had survived physically uninjured.
Pierre Clostermann, a French pilot who had flown from Biggin Hill, wrote “That evening the Mess was like some extraordinary vigil over a corpse. The pilots were slumped in their chairs; no one spoke a word or sang anything. Round about eleven o’clock someone switched on the wireless and we listened to some music.”
Lieutenant Colonel H.W.L. Nichols wrote from Germany “We were all taken by surprise when
the surrender was announced on the wireless, as we had no hint of it coming so soon. It was a bit of an anti-climax though and there was no excitement in the mess. We trooped into the bar had a drink on the strength of it and were all in bed by 10.30”. Major A.J.Forest also wrote from Germany “inwardly I felt melancholic, I wanted quiet to absorb this overwhelming blessing, the restoration of peace after six years of war and above all to be alone”
I spent VE day with my parents and had difficulty in accepting that the war was over and would no longer suffer the apprehension felt upon hearing the sound of an air raid warning. Next day we went back to work and found that little had changed and then realised that the war would not finally be over until Japan had surrendered. It looked as if the war with Japan would be hard fought and an eventual end to the war a long way off.
Six de Havilland Students, photographed for the DH magazine
I am standing top left. The aircraft is an Avro Lincoln.
Early in 1945 I had been transferred to work at Hatfield, promoted from a trade apprentice to an aeronautical student. This meant that I could now continue my training in their design offices; it also meant a considerable increase in travelling time, as I was still living in Lewisham. The factory working week was 50 hours including Saturday mornings, reduced to 48 for senior staff and office
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workers. As a student I was now expected to aim towards becoming a member of a professional body such as the Royal Aeronautical Society. To do this I had to attend evening classes, preferably at Hatfield. After much discussion I was allowed to enrol back at my old school, the South East London Technical Institute, in order to study for the Higher National Certificate in mechanical and structural engineering, three nights a week!
It was a rush to get back from Hatfield in time to start evening classes at 6.30 pm; however I cannot remember having any time off due to stress or illness. It was later shown that despite the
horrendous working conditions very few days were lost due to sickness or other causes. If we were lucky we had a whole week off for a holiday, which if I remember correctly, was unpaid. I cannot As far as I was concerned the war might be over but nothing much changed, the daily chore was just the same. Food and other materials were still in short supply and rationing still continued. Thr remember either my family or me actually having a holiday during the war.
As far as I was concerned the war might be over but nothing much changed, the daily chore was
just the same. Food and other materials were still in short supply and rationing still continued. The war with Japan was still going on but seemed too distant to be of particular concern until the 6th of
August 1945, when we became aware of a devastating new weapon called the atom bomb. The
United States had dropped an atom bomb on Hiroshima causing extensive damage and loss of life.
The Americans gave the Japanese an offer to surrender but the Japanese generals refused and so on the 9th of August the US dropped a second atom bomb, this time on Nagasaki.
The Japanese government then realized that they had little alternative but to immediately consider a surrender. On the 14th August the Japanese unconditionally surrendered to the allies and on the 2nd of September 1945 the U.S. General Douglas Mac Arthur accepted Japan's surrender thus formally ending the Second World War
Subsequently historians have reviewed the use of this deadly weapon forgetting that we were still at war. Without employing this weapon there can be no doubt that the Japanese would have continued with their horrendous form of unconditional warfare, with death seen as an act of heroism. This would have cost the lives of many more Americans and allied troops. If the Germans or Japanese had such a weapon do these historians really believe they would have hesitated before using it? Who knows what might have happened if the war had continued and Germany or Japan had been allowed to become the first to use an atomic weapon.
One of the last of our Bomber Command raids was on the German city of Dresden. Many historians have managed to convince our younger generation that we had committed a horrendous crime against innocent civilians. They forget that we were still at war having experienced five years of indiscriminate German raids on our cities, with Hitler promising even more deadly attacks. We rejoiced when we heard our bombers had caused maximum damage to their German cities, letting them experience what it was like to be on the receiving end of bombs they had enjoyed dropping on us.
The result of reviewing this one raid on a German city is that the tremendous sacrifice made by our bomber boys during the war has been forgotten. Instead of being considered heroes they have been unjustly vilified, but was the Dresden raid justified? I recently came across a thist statement written by a German scientist:
“Dresden was not simply a cultural centre, there were factories there manufacturing weapons and equipment for the Nazi war effort. To produce an atom bomb a supply of heavy water is needed and
the main source had already been destroyed in Norway. There is sufficient evidence that the Nazis
were producing heavy water in the centre of Dresden, under the impression that because of the large civilian population it would not be bombed. Dresden was also an important rail base for the Nazis to
send troops and equipment to the front and so would be considered an important war target.”
I have also read that right up to his suicide on April 30th 1945 Hitler was still hoping for news that much of the evidence being destroyed in the latter stages of the war, we cannot be certain just how
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advanced the Germans were towards obtaining such a weapon and did the raids on Dresden on the 13/15th February finally convince him that this was not going the happen?
We will never know if this was true, but if it was suspected that Dresden contained such an important war target then it was right to be attacked. While historians argue that with Germany’s surrender only weeks away we should not have bombed the city. The truth is that I, and probably most of us, did not know the end of the war was only weeks away and felt as though it would go on for ever.
Demobilisation began on the18th June 1945. Bread was rationed after the war, on the 21st July 1946, and food rationing did not finally end until July 1954.
At the end of the war I was aged 18 and with three years of my apprenticeship to complete had enjoyed very little social life. I had had some contact with factory girls but had not been impressed. I
was thankful that I had not suffered any injuries nor lost any of my close family, although my brother
had lost his wife.
During my brother’s stay in South Africa he had married the daughter of the owner of a well known Cape Town newspaper, Cape Argus and on his return to the UK he had to leave without her; however some months later she managed to get a passage on a merchant ship but never arrived. My brother received a telegram to say she had become ill on the voyage and had subsequently died and been buried at sea. It was a sad occasion for me to accompany my brother to Southampton to collect her things, which included presents for us.
In May 1944 there were nearly two million American service men over here, plus
Canadians and other nationalities. The American GIs had plenty of money to spend (the ordinary GIs earning five times more than a British private) and a smart uniform, their accent reminding us of the glamour of Hollywood films. They had gum and candy, silk stockings, plenty of cigarettes and were generally very polite. What else did a lonely girl need? As a result these friendships produced a lot of “Dear John” letters written to their husbands and fiancés overseas. Some of our returning soldiers (over 265,000 had been killed) did not find the expected welcoming homecoming.
To become pregnant out of marriage was considered a very serious breach of family life. I have had personal experience of this when my cousin became pregnant by her American boy friend and was asked to leave home. Despite subsequently keeping in touch with my uncle I never found out what happened to her.
By the end of 1945 the number of divorces had reached 25,000, compared with less than
8,500 in1938. By the end of the war over 100,000 British girls had married American and Dominion servicemen. The number of illegitimate births had reached 64,000 by the end of the war. Venereal disease had become a major concern and there was an added problem of relationships ceasing, when their lovers had to return overseas, some to their wives! The end of the war certainly raised many problems. To many the peace was going to prove a very difficult time!
Perhaps the reader can now see why dressing up in war time clothes, sitting in an
Anderson shelter and listening to a recording of bombs falling has little to do with the reality of my war. One important ingredient missing is how we felt at the time, personal memories which can only be recalled by those that were present at the time. For some the memory may be of a particular instance which is very painful to recall, for me it was part of my teenage experience.
I was too young to do any fighting, but at least I had survived and with my war years still
reasonably clear in my memory have been able to document some of my wartime memories.
Hopefully this recollection will do a little to help; if only to cause the reader to reflect that there was more to the war than can be depicted by sitting in an Anderson shelter. A famous
novelist, J.B.Priestly wrote, “The British were absolutely at their best in the Second World
War. They were never so good in my lifetime before it, and I’m sorry to say that they’ve never been so good after it”
I am very grateful that my computer and reference books have allowed me to quickly
check facts and figures which the passing years may well have caused my memory to distort.
Page 22
Having asked my wife to read this, in order to correct any grammatical and spelling mistakes, she said it was a noble effort, but what was the purpose, who would be interested? I had no idea, I just felt the need to record the war as I remembered it and to express my concern at some of the inaccuracies being displayed in recent television programmes and films. I have no problems with most documentaries; they are generally excellent, especially those of the Great War.
When I see pictures of the terrible trench war I think of my father. He had joined as an
infantry man at the beginning of the war in 1914 and was present at some of the famous battles. However I showed little interest in hearing about his wartime experiences, after all to me it was ancient history! Now I deeply regret the lost opportunity. His war ended on November1918 with a horrifying casualty rate of 35.8 %. But just a few years later he must have been well aware that
another war was a distinct possibility. I can now imagine how he st have felt, with memories of his
war still very fresh in his mind! I also think about the problems faced by my parents and others,
in trying to look after their families.
After the war we learnt that Hitler had not approved any plans for an invasion of the British Isles. None of the plans submitted were considered feasible, especially with the Royal Navy still intact a seaborne invasion was out of the question. But Hitler assumed invasion
would not be necessary, based on what had happened in Europe. After a short blitz on the British civilian population he assumed we would soon sue for peace, especially following the defeat and evacuation of our troops at Dunkirk. Most thought it would be a matter of weeks before Britain admitted defeat, including America but they had not reckoned with the courage of our youngsters in the Royal Air force and the character of the British people, led by our exceptional Prime Minister, Winston Churchill.
The war was certainly a defining moment in my teenage life, having come so close to being a witness to the end of the British Empire.
Alan Mann
June 2008
Revised February 2017
I acknowledge that without a computer and access to the Web for additional information and pictures, my teenage memories of the war would have remained just memories.
Alan
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
My recollections of the War
Description
An account of the resource
Reminisces about pre-war and early war days as a schoolboy in Lewisham. Recalls events at the beginning of the war. Includes photographs of aircraft and naval ships. Continues with history of events through the war's early years including conscription, German actions in Europe, battle of France, Dunkirk and the battle of Britain. Included detailed accounts of German air force attacks. Continues with account of the Blitz, details of bomb shelters and casualties. Includes photograph of Hitler and Churchill. Describes Royal Navy attack on Taranto and includes photograph of Swordfish. Continues with German offensives in North Africa and the Balkans. Mentions his job at the Redwing Aircraft Company and joining No 1 Maintenance Unit and Barrage Balloon Centre at RAF Kidbrooke as an apprentice. Continues with more war history and details of rationing. In 1943 transferred his apprenticeship to De Havilland Aircraft Company. Discusses life during the war including bombing and people moving to the country. Mentions D-Day, V-weapons, Bomber Command operations. In 1945 was transferred to Hatfield. Goes on to describe events in 1945 and the end of the war followed by comments on American servicemen in the United Kingdom.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alan Mann
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-06
Format
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Twenty-two page printed document with colour and b/w photographs
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BMannAMannAv3
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Kent
England--London
England--Hertfordshire
England--Hatfield (Hertfordshire)
England--Herefordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938-05-20
1938
1939
1940
1941
1941-05
1942
1943
1944
1945
2008-06
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
bombing
childhood in wartime
firefighting
home front
Hurricane
incendiary device
Me 109
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Biggin Hill
RAF Hatfield
shelter
Spitfire
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/41/292/PDiniA1701.2.jpg
658f1d6a032ffa6bcbd5c3c49cd421b2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/41/292/ADiniA170105.1.mp3
31de13960fd5778c440cf8904128d287
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dini, Alberto
Alberto Dini
A Dini
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Alberto Dini who recollects his wartime experiences in Trieste.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dini, A
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Bene signor Alberto, grazie allora, vorrei che lei mi raccontasse qual è il ricordo più remoto che riesce a recuperare, potrebbe essere un ricordo familiare, di cosa faceva con la sua famiglia, suoi genitori, aveva fratelli o amici. Qual è il ricordo più antico che riesce a recuperare?
AD: Il ricordo di che tipo?
AP: Qualsiasi.
AD: Eh è un po’ difficile.
AP: Mm, potrebbe essere un ricordo famigliare o il, che cosa faceva prima della guerra, andava a scuola?
AD: Sì certo, è un ricordo che forse è legato, è condizionato dall’argomento di questa intervista: le giornate che si trascorreva allora nel, all’asilo. L’età era quella, quando è scoppiata la guerra era giuso appena, appena, frequentavo l’ultimo anno del, dell’asilo. Eeeh l’aviazione aveva un suo ruolo allora: l’impresa di Italo Balbo, le, tutte le altre vicende legate ai primi, ai primi mesi di guerra dove era l’aviazione coinvolta e attrice di primo piano. E che anche noi bambini si giocava all’aeroplano mettendo uno davanti con le mani aperte e l’altro dietro con le mani sulle spalle e faceva l’aeroplano. Poi la fantasia andava a sbizzarrirsi e facendo, immaginando combattimenti impossibili eh, ecco questo era così come lei mi ha fatto la richiesta, la domanda sul, visto l’argomento poi che si svilupperà sull’aviazione che ho legato, ho ritenuto opportuno legare come presentazione, e come biglietto di presentazione.
AP: Ottimo. Cosa le veniva raccontato a scuola? Lei mi stava parlando dei momenti in cui la guerra è cominciata.
AD: Sì.
AP: Si ricorda quando è scoppiata la guerra? Se per esempio...
AD: Sì, la dichiarazione, il discorso della dichiarazione di guerra fatta da Benito Mussolini.
AP: Mi parli di quel momento, cosa si ricorda? Dov’era?
AD: Ero in cucina con i miei genitori eeeh si stava ascoltando quanto aveva da dire il capo del governo del momento, il Duce, noto come, come tale. Era venuta da noi una vicina che non era in possesso di un apparecchio radio, perché in quella volta l’apparecchio radio era ancora considerato un lusso. Eeeeh, al momento in cui il, il duce è arrivato a pronunciare la parola fatidica della dichiarazione di guerra presentata agli ambasciatori di Francia e Inghilterra (Gran Bretagna mi pare che l’aveva citata come tale) eeeh la signora che era venuta da noi scoppiò a piangere, quasi un presagio che poi appunto successe che il marito morì allo, nello sbarco in Sicilia delle truppe anglo-americane. Ecco quello è un ricordo che sarà sempre presente nei miei ricordi di guerra.
AP: Capisco. Cos’è avvenuto a scuola? Si ricorda cosa le hanno detto le sue insegnanti? La guerra le è stata spiegata in qualche modo?
AD: No. Era un fatto, quasi una necessità per l’Italia di entrare in guerra per avere allora non, non mi rendevo conto di cosa, come, quando, con chi, ehh era uno stato di guerra che presupponevo fosse uno stato di estrema gravità, ma soltanto sensazioni, niente di concreto.
AP: Ricorda cose, manifesti di propaganda, dei discorsi?
AD: Si manifesti ce n’erano, anche proprio che invitavano a tacere ‘Il nemico ti ascolta’ eeeh non mi ricordo altro così che però era significativo perché ‘Taci il nemico ti ascolta’ era l’immagine di un soldato inglese, tipico il profilo con l’elmo della forma particolare che era in dotazione all’esercito inglese che era questo invito alla riservatezza.
AP: Se lei dovesse provare a spiegare qual era l’atmosfera dei primi mesi o dei primi anni di guerra, che cosa, che cosa si ricorda? Paura, indifferenza, senso di attesa?
AD: Bah eeeh, la partenza, l’arruolamento più o meno forzoso di mio fratello per andare a volontario, perché fra me e mio fratello c’era una differenza di quindici anni dunque lui era in pieno, la persona che poteva risolvere [laughs] i problemi della patria andando pure lui a, a far la guerra. Dunque lui, mia sorella che si era sposata e col marito che era in procinto di partire, destinazione Africa settentrionale. Eeeh uno stato così di, ma quasi un intontimento, un almeno quello che provavo io, tutte queste novità, questi imprevisti, queste queste cose che si sviluppavano con un ritmo crescente, i notiziari di guerra, i bombardamenti, le notizie dei primi bombardamenti sulle città italiane o dei bombardamenti dell’aviazione italiana su malta, Tobruch eeeh nomi che erano abituali, usuali a sentire con la frequenza quotidiana di, di fatti di guerra di questo tipo.
AP: Quindi la realtà non era cambiata molto, continuavate a fare la vita di sempre.
AD: No, no, no. Poi c’era anche qualche altro parente che aveva così questo stato di arruolamento, di provvisorietà o di stacco di quello che era l’attività quotidiana per essere trasformata in un’attività legata all’ambiente bellico.
AP: Si ricorda qualcosa di come la vita di queste persone sia stata trasformata dall’inizio della guerra?
AD: Mah più o meno tutti quanti hanno avuto delle delle trasformazioni nelle proprie abitudini, nelle proprie usanze. Eeeeh un parente, uno zio, fratello della mamma che eeeh era stato coinvolto come, a malavoglia perché so che era una persona ormai vicino alla pensione, che era stato forzatamente imbarcato su una nave che al terzo viaggio poi questa nave venne silurata all’uscita da Pola e lui non fece ritorno, non ritornò a casa appunto perché vittima dello stato d’arme. Eeeeh anche indirettamente c’era sempre qualcosa che faceva riferimento alla guerra, tipo appunto il gioco innocente di due, di più ragazzini che facevano un aereo con le proprie, con i propri arti.
AP: Facevate delle esercitazioni, qualcosa del genere, ad esempio a scuola?
AD: No, esercitazioni no. C’era ecco per esempio il, l’incartamento delle finestre per evitare in caso di spostamenti d’aria di essere feriti da, dai vetri che si, avrebbero potuto, si sarebbero potuti rompere per lo spostamento d’aria o per un’esplosione nelle immediate vicinanze.
AP: Lei mi ha parlato fino a questo momento di questa sensazione di attesa, questo senso di sospensione quasi irreale eccetera, quando è terminato? Quando quando si è trovato con la guerra in casa, quando lei ha avuto esperienza diretta?
AD: È il momento in cui i soldati tedeschi sono arrivati a Trieste, dopo l’armistizio, calcolandoci traditori hanno invaso il Veneto e hanno creato uno stato denominato Adriatisches Küstenland che era una provincia agganciata al Reich, praticamente un’appendice di quella che era Austria ma non era più Austria e questo, l’annessione praticamente di trovarci stranieri senza aver varcato alcun confine. Quello è stata una visione palpabile di un qualche cosa di grave che stava incombendo su di noi.
AP: In quel momento come è cambiata la sua vita, si ricorda come?
AD: No, la mia vita non è cambiata, di molto, mmmh ecco la scuola era stata requisita per ospitare soldati tedeschi, e allora io dovevo andare ben più lontano di quello che ero andato fino ad allora, perché eeeh la scuola era proprio vicinissima a casa mia. Essendo stata occupata dalle truppe tedesche eeh ho dovuto spostarmi.
AP: E questo stato va avanti fino.
AD: Fino alla fine che poi è si, finito con un lungo bombardamento, quotidiano, che è durato più giorni, continuo, di cannone del Castello di San Giusto alla villa Geiringer nel piazzale della, dell’università dove tiravano, sparavano questi cannoni, rispondevano altri cannoni che erano sul crinale del Carso, eeeh soprattutto quando c’era prima, quando c’erano gli allarmi aerei che c’erano incursioni o previste o in corso e allora c’era l’artiglieria antiaerea se no i cannoni di normale dotazione alle batterie del castello di San Giusto, che sparavano verso il Carso per evitare l’avvicinamento dell’esercito Jugoslavo. Ecco son stati due o tre giorni praticamente in cui era meglio restare a casa e non uscire, per evidenti pericoli. Sono uscito da casa il pomeriggio del giorno, di un giorno, uno dei primi giorni adesso non ricordo esattamente, quando si è capito, per quelle cose che in tempo di guerra si captano anche se non si sentono, abbiamo captato che la guerra era finita perché il cannone non ha sparato più e allora siamo timidamente, furtivamente ci siamo avventurati in strada, e abbiamo visto quello che era uno spettacolo di combattimento strada, non strada per strada ma insomma un combattimento ravvicinato, vicino a casa mia c’era il tribunale dove c’era la roccaforte dei, dei tedeschi che cercavano di opporsi fino all’ultimo alla conquista del del truppe jugoslave.
AP: E lì ha capito che la Seconda guerra mondiale era arrivata alla fine.
AD: Era arrivata alla fine appunto: da un silenzio irreale, da un fracasso, da un frastuono assordante del del cannone e di altre armi leggere che appunto improvvisamente, come come gran finale o, forse sono irriverente, accostare agli spari io del, dei fuochi d’artificio che finiscono con due gran botti, qui i botti sono finiti quando sono entrati i carri armati neozelandesi che hanno fatto fuoco sul tribunale e ponendo fine con la resa dei tedeschi, ponendo fine alla guerra, perché per me la guerra è finita in quel momento.
AP: Ora però vorrei portarla un po’ più in dietro. Lei ha, mi ha parlato di quando ascoltava la radio, notizie di bombardamenti su altre città italiane.
AD: Sì.
AP: Qual è stato il primo bombardamento di Trieste che lei ricorda.
AD: 10 giugno del ’44. Il primo bombardamento sulla città.
AP: Si ricorda dov’era?
AD: Sì, perfettamente anche più volte così menzionato con amici o. Era una giornata di sole, era il 10 giugno del ’44, una giornata che io ero rimasto a solo a casa per permettere, cioè perché mia mamma era andata ad accudire le quotidianità dell’acquisto dei generi alimentari, quei pochi che si trovavano perché non non c’era molta disponibilità. Poi c’erano le tessere che garantivano un qualche cosa che non riuscivano a garantire, allora ero rimasto solo perché i maschi della casa erano tutti in giro per il mondo: mio fratello in Grecia prigioniero dei tedeschi in Germania, eeeh mio cognato disperso in Africa, mio papà disperso da qualche parte in Italia, ero l’unico uomo di casa a dieci anni, no otto, sempre otto. Eeeeh [pause] è stato così come, anche quello, mi sono immaginato che stava cambiando rapidamente qualcosa, mi sono affacciato alla finestra, che avevo avuto istruzioni di come fare, cosa fare eccetera eccetera, ho avuto la sensazione che qualche guaio stesse incombendo sulla città, di fatti improvvisamente si sono sentiti i rumori dei motori molto forti mentre prima le altre volte passavano altissimi, si vedevano più scie che aerei. In quel giorno, affacciandomi sono riuscito a distinguere l’aereo, dunque erano molto bassi, appena ho, mi sono reso conto di cosa stesse per accadere, sono uscito dall’appartamento, stavo al quarto piano, sono sceso fino al secondo, al primo, a quel punto uno spostamento d’aria m’ha fatto, m’ha buttato su tutta la rampa di scale, non mi sono fatto niente però ho mi sono reso conto che era caduta la bomba molto vicina e di fatti così era avvenuto. Quello è stato l’impatto con la guerra guerreggiata.
AP: E cosa è accaduto dopo? Dopo l’episodio dove è volato.
AD: Eh naturalmente la famiglia si è ricomposta nelle varie emergenze, come arrivava a casa uno o l’altro.
AP: Qual è stata la reazione di sua madre quando è tornata a casa?
AD: Ah di sollievo di trovarmi, di trovarmi in vita praticamente. Perché la casa non era stata colpita però lo spostamento d’aria m’aveva fatto fare la fine di un moscerino davanti a una tempesta.
AP: E da questo momento in poi gli allarmi diventano una cosa.
AD: Una quotidianità, la seccatura era quella quando capitavano di notte verso le due, due e mezza, tre di notte che magari con la bora urlante per strada, e dover balzare dal letto e correre verso una sicurezza piuttosto precaria che offriva la cantina trasformata in ricovero.
AP: Provi a descrivermi con parole sue cosa accadeva o cosa si ricordava, cosa si ricorda lei adesso dal momento in cui lei si svegliava o veniva svegliato, al momento in cui tornava a casa dopo il cessato allarme. Cioè cosa cosa accadeva? Suonava l’allarme, poi insomma doveva svegliarsi.
AD: Correre verso un, un’effimera sicurezza che era rappresentata dal rifugio fatto nelle cantine, sotto la casa praticamente, non si aveva l’impatto con la bora, col freddo, perché essendo all’interno della casa avveniva più o meno abbastanza attutito questo impatto. Però in cantina c’era la fucina delle malattie per tutti i ragazzini, che cominciava uno ad avere una malattia e la passava a tutti gli altri e quando aveva finito l’ultimo cominciava la nuova. Eeeh da ragazzini non si sentiva molto il fatto che la guerra poteva rappresentare un pericolo mortale per noi, era un’interruzione seccante di una dormita che si auspicava durasse molto poco, di fatti tante volte, cioè visto che sono a contare questa cosa qua, sono durati abbastanza, abbastanza poco tempo per non avere conseguenze di altro tipo che non una seccatura, e la voglia di tornare sotto sotto delle lenzuola ormai fredde.
AP: Quando eravate giù in cantina.
AD: In cantina si faceva scambio di giornalini, soldatini, di figurine, questo a livello di ragazzini.
AP: Provi, provi a raccontarmi un po’ di quella atmosfera.
AD: Eravamo.
AP: Era, lei era con altre persone?
AD: Sì perché in casa c’erano tanti tanti giovani, tanti ragazzi, tanti, un po’ di molte età, cioè non che fossimo tanti, c’era il ragazzino di dieci, come quello di cinque, come quello di otto che rappresentavo io la categoria, era e si faceva, se era di giorno si andava, si cercava di uscire sfuggendo all’attenzione del capo fabbricato, che era una persona incaricata da dalle autorità non so di che tipo se comunali, se di partito, ma comunque era qualcuno che doveva stare attendo che nessuno uscisse dalla casa durante l’allarme, i ragazzini sono sempre quelli che riescano a sgattaiolare dappertutto e io mi trovavo tra quelli che andavano a giocare a guardia e ladri invece del giardin pubblico si andava a giocare per le strade attorno alla casa. Oppure traffico commercio di albi di vario tipo, non c’era Topolino quella volta ma c’era altri albi abbastanza adatti all’educazione dei dei giovani.
AP: Quindi scambiavate fumetti?
AD: Fumetti, figurine, figurine di guerra naturalmente, o figurine di di, con scenari di panorami eccetera così, ambientali, ecologicamente oggi qualificati.
AP: Appropriate. Si ricorda di giochi?
AD: Il gioco, il gioco dell’oca, il gioco del tranvai, il gioco di shanghai, eh quelle cose lì, le asticciole che.
AP: Lei mi ha parlato di soldatini prima.
AD: I soldatini.
AP: Ha dei ricordi particolari di quei soldatini?
AD: Eh io sì, perché erano la riproduzione su metallo eeeh di un qualche cosa che lontano, da qualche parte stava succedendo realmente, e allora ci si immaginava un po’ di essere partecipi anche noi attraverso quella figurina di piombo vicino a chi in quel momento stava, stava vivendo in prima persona.
AP: E quindi li scambiavate, ci giocavate.
AD: Sì, ci faceva anche la guerra tirandoci un qualche cosa tipo rappresentato, un, una gomma per cancellare le le tracce della matita come proiettile per, una volta colpito il soldatino questo cascava era morto.
AP: Eccellente. I gli adulti, i suoi genitori che cosa facevano in quegli stessi momenti? Cercavano.
AD: Chiacchieravano, chiacchieravano da qualche parte in questo angolo di di sicurezza, chiacchieravano chiacchieravano dei problemi del momento, della difficoltà di trovare generi alimentari, del delle poche ore che gli erogavano l’acqua o la luce, perché mancava tutto a determinate fasce, non c’era niente.
AP: Mi racconti, mi racconti di più di queste privazioni e mancanze.
AD: Le privazioni sono cominciate col primo bombardamento, le privazioni dovute dai danni che erano, che le bombe avevano provocato sulla città o in determinati punti strategici della città dove c’erano queste queste installazioni: il gasometro, uno dei degli obiettivi che indirettamente erano stati colpiti e perciò l’erogazione del gas era un pericolo oltre che non aver la potenza di erogare su tutta la città. Poi a seconda dei bombardamenti la mancanza di acqua, perché era stato preso l’acquedotto, perché era stato lesionato, la corrente elettrica perché perché la corrente elettrica, non perché avessero danneggiato, ma perché era un bene molto prezioso che andava centellinato e allora fino a una certa ora della sera non c’era corrente elettrica, cominciava per fortuna verso verso l’ora di cena ammesso che ci fosse qualcosa da cenare eeeh e allora erano di moda le lampade a petrolio con lo specchio per avere doppia, doppia luminosità eeeh erano tutte queste così eeeh.
AP: Lei mi ha parlato della radio a casa, la radio commentava questi avvenimenti, parlava del bombardamento su Trieste?
AD: Parlava, sì, ma come puro fatto di cronaca, non con commenti. I commenti erano sul numero di delle vittime magari ma non sulle cause o come andare ad analizzare o trovare motivi per cui, niente era un un elenco di cose di danni dove erano stati colpiti, case o obiettivi militari. Militari niente neanche uno quando [laughs] abbiamo constatato però c’erano obiettivi su cose che potevano andare, le scuole per esempio, in qualche parte sono, oppure sui sui sul trasporti, era stato distrutto tutta la parte della ACEGAT cioè quella società che garantiva i trasporti urbani che era stata praticamente distrutta perché era sul porto, il porto aveva i suoi danni ma, ma erano ininfluenti sul sul funzionamento della vita quotidiana della città. Aveva fatto danni aveva affondato navi, aveva fatto i guai per una categoria che non riguardava la popolazione, cioè le necessità quotidiane della popolazione, e da quel tipo di bombardamento non non veniva coinvolto ecco.
AP: Erano un po’ danni collaterali.
AD: Ecco sì, anche se forse più, che erano più danni più sostanzialmente più dannosi quei bombardamenti su quelle strutture che non sulla casa del normale cittadino, quello lì era un danno di carattere affettivo o morale.
AP: Lei ha detto danno di carattere affettivo, morale eccetera.
AD: Sì quando uno non trova più la sua casa.
AP: Lei ha avuto un’esperienza di questo genere o ha conosciuto qualcuno che.
AD: No per fortuna no, non ho avuto la conoscenza diretta.
AP: Però riusciva a ad immedesimarsi nel.
AD: Beh oddio sì, perché quando si andava in giro. La prima cosa dopo il bombardamento con mia madre siamo andati a cercare se la nonna, la mamma di mia mamma, era era riuscita indenne o meno se avesse avuto danni dal bombardamento. Constatato che era in buona salute, però siamo passati per la zona che tratti di strada erano scomparsi sotto il macello delle bombe.
AP: Qual è stata la sua impressione nel vedere la città?
AD: Eh di meraviglia perché era una presa di contatto tangibile, di vedere da vicino perché poi in una zona verso Sant’Andrea dove c’erano delle rotaie del tram che erano volate sopra gli alberi. Eh e quello era anche un altro modo per valutare la gravità e la serietà di un qualche cosa che se fino allora non era stato visto, da quel momento diventava una cosa reale.
AP: Quindi per la prima volta lei si è trovato coinvolto.
AD: Sono entrato in contatto con una realtà tragica.
AP: In quella circostanza, com’è stata la sensazione di essere un bersaglio, cioè la consapevolezza che qualcuno.
AD: Non reputavo, non mi reputavo un bersaglio. Avevo una strana sensazione ‘A me queste cose non possono succedere’
AP: Me ne parli.
AD: E tante volte mi domando ‘Ma perché io ho avuto questa sensazione’, forse questa sensazione mi ha aiutato a superare dei tempi, del dei fatti o delle cose che eeeh altrimenti non lo so quanto avrei potuto sopportare.
AP: Quindi lei ha avuto.
AD: Perché i disagi che le dicevo prima, la mancanza di servizi, la mancanza di vitto, la mancanza di sicurezza dell’incolumità, la mancanza di tutto, delle materie prime per una vita appena accettabile.
AP: Quindi lei si è trovato in questa situazione di grande disagio materiale e morale ma allo stesso tempo si sentiva quasi protetto.
AD: Perché proprio a me doveva succedere?
AP: A me non capiterà?
AD: Un discorso presuntuoso?
AP: Mah sì.
AD: Però non lo so, mi è venuto che a distanza di tempo pensando e ripensando su quegli episodi là eeeh non non so dare una spiegazione.
AP: Quindi a distanza di tempo le colpisce questo, le colpisce questo stacco.
AD: In occasioni come queste di questa intervista che la mente è andata su un qualche cosa che mi ero dimenticato, lei me l’ha fatta riportare alla memoria.
AP: Certo.
AD: E così anche tanti altri per esempio le ore trascorse a far la fila per andare a prendere l’acqua quando mancava l’acqua.
AP: Mi parli di questo: dove prendevate l’acqua?
AD: Da da un fondo, un deposito di ferro vecchio si chiamava appunto ferro, un deposito di ferri inutilizzabili pronti per andare in fonderia e lì c’era un tubo con un rubinetto in cui si poteva pazientemente uno alla volta a soddisfare una, una discreta, un discreto numero di utenti attingendo le acque in secchi, bottiglie, damigianette eccetera eccetera, ognuno andava via col suo carico di acqua perché non c’era acqua.
AP: Che poi lei portava a casa con.
AD: E si portava a casa, ognuno la sua razione di acqua per le necessità anche di bere o di preparare da mangiare
AP: Certo.
AD: Era un po’ meno consigliabile adoperarla per pulizie personali.
AP: Prima di cominciare l’intervista lei mi ha accennato brevemente all’incontro con un aviatore tedesco, vuole parlarmene?
AD: Mah è stato un incontro così, camminando per strada si aveva l’occasione di incontrare gruppi di soldati tedeschi, ma, faceva parte della Luftwaffe, con la loro divisa azzurrina eccetera. Eeeeh la cosa che che a posteriore mi stupisce ancora, come un, ormai un esercito allo sbando, o vicino allo sbando come era l’esercito tedesco che potesse avere fra i suoi componenti ancora tanto fanatismo. Quando si incontravano il saluto non era un ‘Ciao’ come si sarebbe potuto supporre tra commilitoni, ma con il, la la classica frase ‘Sieg Heil’ cioè un saluto al loro Führer. Eeeh per cui anche andando in questo negozio dove c’è stato l’incontro fra mia mamma e il tedesco e molto marginalmente io come, forse come attore perché io avrei dovuto a dieci anni forse diventare membro della Luftwaffe e quello aveva dato un po’ di così sgomento a mia madre perché immaginava che il soldato tedesco avesse potuto avere queste doti di creare un soldato da un ragazzino di dieci anni, otto, anzi.
AP: E lei come si è sentito? Spaventato, lusingato?
AD: Lusingato!
AP: Sì?
AD: Ho detto veh guarda questo qui che io guardavo da sotto in su, perché la mia statura di allora e l’altezza del del tedesco, acuivano, aumentavano la disparità di dimensioni.
AP: Capisco.
AD: Ecco eeeeh così, si vivevano sensazioni strane cose che oggi sono inimmaginabili.
AP: Lei m’ha parlato proprio di sensazioni strane che oggi sarebbero inimmaginabili, se dovesse spiegarmi qual è la cosa.
AD: La stranezza?
AP: Qual è, provi a a spiegarmi la la stranezza.
AD: Il fatto di andare la sera quando non c’era più, cioè quando c’era, non c’era luce, e la luce, il fatto dell’assenza della luce favorevole, favoriva il fatto di andare al Boschetto armati di una sega fatiscente per buttare giù un alberetto per andare, per portarlo a casa per avere la possibilità di scaldarsi perché altrimenti niente scalda, riscaldamento. Questo, ben sapendo che se i tedeschi stessi o la Guardia Nazionale Repubblicana che era l’alter ego fascista dei dei carabinieri eeh sparavano. E allora bisognava essere velocissimi buttarsi a terra per evitare le pallottole che a volte fischiavano vicino alle orecchie e poi si raggiungeva casa cercando di evitare le pattuglie che controllavano l’osservanza del coprifuoco perché a una certa ora della sera, verso le 10, 11, scattava il coprifuoco chi veniva pescato fuori veniva arrestato e poi qualche volta a seconda della ripetizione del caso c’era anche la deportazione in Germania o almeno in Risiera.
AP: Mmmm e come vedevate questo fatto del coprifuoco, cioè è una cosa che avevate voglia di sfidare, che.
AD: No la necessità di provare, trovare del legname per fare fuoco.
AP: Quindi semplicemente una cosa che di necessità, occorreva sfidare.
AD: Però abbiamo trovato io e mio fratello, abbiamo trovato modo di fare l’albero di Natale. L’abete costava uno sproposito rispetto allora, dei prezzi di allora, del costo delle, se non si trovava del pane non si aveva di sicuro da spendere per un abete su cui fare poi l’addobbo natalizio. Abbiamo fatto l’abete facendo cosa? Un manico di scopa, con un punteruolo fare i buchi, prendere i rametti dello scarto delle delle ramaglie dove c’erano questi, questi alberi si prendevano senza timore di rappresaglie, si faceva, si appuntiva il rametto e si infilava dentro, poi con i soliti addobbi che si tramandavano di di di anno in anno eeeh eeh poteva sembrare un albero vero. E quello era il nostro albero di Natale per il natale del ’43 e il natale del ’44.
AP: Lei mi ha parlato di Natale questo mi porta con una certa facilità a riti celebrazioni religiose eccetera: lei si ricorda qualcosa detta da figure religiose, parroci? Cioè la guerra entrava in un sermone, una predica, qualcosa cosa del genere?
AD: C’era nel mese di maggio e presso qualche chiesa, lo so perché questo, dovevo seguire la mamma in via Rossetti alla chiesa delle Grazie dove c’era un prete che sfidava gli occupanti di allora, gli occupatori di allora per, con discorsi di attualità di conforto, ma nello stesso tempo di conforto per le famiglie che avevano senz’altro dei componenti della famiglia in guerra o zone di guerra o addirittura già scomparsi. E allora mi trovavo ad andare il mese di maggio, era, avveniva questa, questa appuntamento con questo prete eeeh in maggio, in giugno la chiesa venne distrutta in pieno da una bomba. Eeeh per il resto sì, si faceva il giro delle chiese a vedere i presepi come più o meno avviene ancora oggi. Ehm altri ricordi di di legati al mondo della chiesa o della fede non ce n’ho.
AP: Non si ricorda se per esempio qualcuno dava una giustificazione o tentava di spiegarlo in un modo piuttosto che in un altro.
AD: No no, a meno che io me ne sia accorto no.
AP: Lei prima mi ha parlato del primo grande bombardamento, ne ricorda degli altri?
AD: Sì, allora per combinazione il primo era il 10 giugno del ’43, il secondo al 10 giugno, ehm 10 settembre dello scorso, dello stesso anno, e poi ben più robusti in febbraio del ’45, il 5 febbraio, il 10 febbraio sono, case che hanno, le fiamme le hanno divorate per più giorni in piazza, in piazza Carlo Alberto, via Ghirlandaio, sono zone che, urbane non parlo dei danni sul sul porto, parlo delle delle abitazioni coinvolte ecco questa era, i ricordi che ho queste quattro date che probabilmente saranno state anche altre. Per esempio qualche volta venivano di notte e bombardavano lo scalo ferroviario di Opicina, Villa Opicina, o, o il deposito di petroli verso Muggia, eeh ecco quelli erano dei momenti insomma che [pause] che componevano le varie diversificazioni nel corso della giornata, nel corso della guerra che avevano tutte queste queste escalation di intensità di bombardamento, di ampliamento di zone coinvolte nei bombardamenti ecco.
AP: Quindi la cosa è andata peggiorando nel corso.
AD: Peggiorando senz’altro.
AP: E quindi mi parlava di questo scenario di case devastate eccetera.
AD: Era sempre sì.
AP: Quindi anche ehm i suoni, gli odori erano diversi.
AD: Io non, non ho avuto nessuna conseguenza da, però c’era un, un misto di polvere, di cose che che sono in fase di, si forse per una carenza di pulizie per difficoltà di approvvigionamento dell’acqua era così, anche quello una componente del, dell’aria che si respirava allora.
AP: E nel frattempo lei continuava ad andare a scuola, nel frattempo continuava ad andare a scuola.
AD: Sì, si continuavo, andavo a scuola, il mio anno scolastico nel 1944 l’ultimo di guerra perché dopo [unclear] è stata è finita la guerra eeeh sulla pagella che da qualche parte devo avere ancora, son segnati mi pare diciotto giorni di scuola in un anno scolastico, però avevamo la fortuna di avere una maestra che sapeva fare il suo mestiere e che nella valutazione di fine anno ha saputo dare una descrizione della diligenza dello scolaro attraverso quello che conosceva. Era degli anni precedenti, perché si era una specie di famiglia allargata, e allora queste cose, non richiedevano una compassata interrogazione.
AP: Venivano capite.
AD: Sì.
AP: Tra i suoi compagni di classe.
AD: Sì.
AP: Lei ricorda vittime di bombardamenti?
AD: No.
AP: Qualcuno ad esempio che è arrivato ferito o che poi non si è.
AD: No no, nessuno per fortuna.
AP: Per fortuna no. C’è un’altra cosa che mi incuriosisce, lei ha parlato di ricoveri privati, quindi cantine.
AD: Sì.
AP: Ha avuto esperienza di ricoveri pubblici?
AD: Sì.
AP: Cosa cambiava?
AD: Sì, vicino a casa mia c’era una galleria scavata appositamente per servire da ricovero in caso di bombardamenti, un ricovero antiaereo come denominato allora. Eeeh: l’odore dell’umanità.
AP: Mi spieghi.
AD: Un’umanità un po’ sporca, fatta da odore di disinfettanti, di melissa [emphasis] che era l’odore imperante allora, era il toccasana per tanti guai piccoli guai, dove l’umido era una cosa normale, le pareti gocciolavano e lì bisognava trascorrere gran parte delle ore aspettando che suonasse il cessato allarme e si potesse tornare a casa. La decisione di andare nel rifugio anti aereo era derivato dal fatto che mio fratello in una peripezia durante la sua prigionia aveva portato a passare per Norimberga in Germania e lì lui [coughs] era rimasto scioccato di vedere l’entità di danni dei bombardamenti degli americani su quella città e allora una volta arrivato a Trieste ci aveva imposto come l’uomo che si sostituiva alle mie, alle mie facoltà di capofamiglia, di uomo del di famiglia, aveva consigliato più che imposto, aveva consigliato, ma fermamente di andare in questi ricoveri per, per paura che si verificasse, si ripetesse la stessa cosa a a Trieste, ecco allora come si. Per il resto anche lì si tentava, come gli altri ragazzi, di inventare qualcosa che non era più lo scambio di figurine o di soldatini eccetera ma erano giochi dati non so, fatti coi sassi con, o di saltare, atleticamente preparatori verso un qualche cosa.
AP: E gli adulti facevano più o meno la stessa cosa?
AD: Chiacchieravano, commentavano, che forse la guerra sta finendo che ancora un po’ ci si, ci si ritroverà a vivere una vita civile e non più quella vita da sinistrato che si stava vivendo.
AP: Si fumava all’interno del ricovero?
AD: Si fumava? Sì, c’era chi fumava ma in quei ricoveri là veniva consigliato più o meno delicatamente o educatamente di non fumare perché l’aria già viziata di per sé stessa che andare ad ammorbare con odori di tabacchi non certo di prima scelta e allora il fumo il fumo era pressoché bandito.
AP: Capisco. C’era qualcuno che commentava sugli equipaggi degli aerei?
AD: Su su che cosa?
AP: Sull’equipaggio degli aerei cioè.
AD: No, veniva calcolato un mezzo per venire a fare più danni possibili verso un occupatore, non ho mai sentito l’aviatore come un nemico della mia patria, cioè come a me come italiano. Quello che veniva a bombardare era per bombardare i tedeschi che ci occupavano.
AP: Quindi lei non ha avuto la sensazione di.
AD: Non ho visto il nemico proprio, sì una persona pericolosa, un attraverso un mezzo forse più pericoloso, ecco ma non.
AP: Non ha avuto questa sensazione di essere in un certo senso odiato?
AD: Non ho mai sentito il pilota, i piloti come nemici.
AP: E nemmeno le altre persone, cioè non c’era nessuno che lanciava improperi o cose di questo genere.
AD: No no no, non non li ho mai sentiti. Imprecavano il fatto di essere stati svegliati di notte per correre al rifugio ma non verso qualcuno, una protesta così in senso lato.
AP: Impersonale.
AD: Impersonale.
AP: Capisco. C’è una cosa che mi incuriosisce anche relativa al dopoguerra, e quando è finita la guerra negli anni successivi lei è ritornato su questi fatti, magari con persone che erano suoi coetanei all’epoca o ha preferito dimenticarsene?
AD: No, no son tutte cose che son rimaste con me.
AP: Fino a?
AD: Pochissime volte sono state riesumate non so, nel corso di qualche, qualche chiacchiera fatta fra amici eccetera, eeeh si può dire la prima volta che, in questo momento era che io sto tirando fuori delle cose che via via che sto parlando mi accorgo di, che nella mia memoria.
AP: Sono rimaste.
AD: C’è un angolino di queste cose qua, altrimenti è una cosa che ho lasciato perdere ma non perché deciso di lasciar perdere, perché è stato spontaneo, come quella sensazioni di prima ‘A me non può succedere’ non non mi interessa, il fatto della guerra che io quello che ho avuto ho subito, ho vissuto sulla mia pelle, forse mi ritengo fortunato di averle vissute, mi hanno forgiato per il proseguo della mia vita, nella mia carriera lavorativa eccetera eccetera.
AP: Quindi ritiene che in un certo senso la sua vita sia stata trasformata da quegli eventi?
AD: Condizionata, senz’altro.
AP: In che modo?
AD: Appunto di sapermi adattarmi alle difficoltà della vita, perché quelle che ho vissuto durante la guerra sono difficoltà, di altro tipo, però le difficoltà sono sempre alla fine, bisogna interpretarle nella maniera favorevole, non sfavorevole. Se io ho patito la fame allora eee se un giorno mi dice, sono costretto a saltare un pasto non faccio un dramma, anche due, è una cosa che ricordo di allora e che si può vivere si più sopravvivere senza luce, senza gas, senza acqua, senza la pace.
AP: Capisco. Direi che è stata una bellissima intervista
AD: Spero
AP: Ho raccolto un sacco di materiale particolarmente interessante, le viene in mente qualcosa d’altro? Vuole aggiungere qualcosa?
AD: Dovremmo stare qui ancora un bel po’ perché chissà da dove, da che parte, anche di qualche angolo della mia memoria può venire fuori qualcosa.
AP: C’è qualcosa di, magari ho toccato qualche argomento prima, vuole aggiungere, le è venuto in mente qualche altro dettaglio?
AD: Frequentavo una congregazione di preti dove mia mamma mi mandava per stare in pace un po’ lei perché ero abbastanza vivace, ne combinavo di tutti i colori, una specie di Pierino oggi si direbbe, e allora, beata l’ora che aveva trovato questo sfogo mi mandava anche abbastanza vicino a casa e c’era un prete di origine boema che sapeva fare coi ragazzi, mi interessava, era sempre pronto per fare, partecipare lui stesso ai nostri giochi, ai giochi di squadra di ragazzi, all’interno della congregazione c’era anche un teatrino dove, si giocava e basta. Con la fine della guerra il giorno stesso in cui sono cominciati i bombardamenti, questo prete, posso fare anche il nome eventualmente, padre Placek [?] essendo boemo è un cognome di quelli, non l’ho più visto, e non sono mai riuscito a sapere che fine avesse fatto, forse quelli che erano i frequentatori della della congregazione più vecchi di me forse loro eeeh possono sapere che fine abbia fatto questa questa persona, io non l’ho mai voluto approfondire, forse per non ricevere qualcosa di sgradevole nel nel scoprire qualche cosa che avesse determinato la sua scomparsa.
AP: Un destino funesto. Capisco.
AD: Ma vede ci sono cose che.
AP: Se, se, se. Bene, direi che se non le viene in mente nient’altro potremmo, potremmo chiudere qui.
AD: No, almeno mi sembra di no poi magari in seguito. Dovrò dovrò pentirmi di aver interrotto questa conversazione.
AP: Allora in questo momento spengo il registratore.
AD: Nell’ultimo anno di guerra, nei cieli di Trieste si era presentata o meglio era stata notata la presenza di un pilota, di un aereo, forse una cicogna. Questo pilota era un po’ mattacchione, buttava bombe dove vedeva luci e spesso faceva anche qualche danno più serio ma erano bombe di piccolo calibro che venivano sganciate, la fantasia popolare l’aveva definito, l’aveva chiamato Pippo, a dire Pippo nel 1944, qualsiasi persona della mia età sa a che cosa si può riferire.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alberto Dini
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-05
Contributor
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Francesca Campani
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:52:49 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
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ADiniA170105
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Trieste
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-10
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Alberto Dini reminisces his wartime life in Trieste starting from the declaration of war until the end of the conflict. Describes life under the bombs, stressing disruption of utilities, devastated streets and chequered schooling history. Describes the bombing on the 10 June 1944, mentioning the sense of impending doom he felt immediately before being hit by a blow. Highlights the belief that nothing bad could happen to him and stresses the importance of his positive attitude as a coping strategy.
Mentions childrens pastimes such as mimicking aircraft dogfights, playing Mikado or cops and robbers, trading toy soldiers, cards and comics. Recounts wartime anecdotes: assembling a makeshift Christmas tree, wood-pilfering after curfew and the encounter with a Luftwaffe serviceman who foretold how he would have a career as a pilot.
Mentions how he tried to escape the vigilance of the warden to play hide-and-seek outside and reminisces on life in large underground public shelters: dripping walls, fetid sweat, damp air, and smell of rot. Remembers the omnipresent scent of Melissa (Melissa officinalis) then widely used as a cure for all. Narrates how his elder brother came home after he had witnessed the bombing of Nuremberg and urged his relatives to never use domestic shelters. Mentions Father Placek, a Bohemian priest who disappeared during the war and another member of the clergy who defied the authorities. Describes "Pippo" dropping small bombs, identifying the aircraft as a Storch (Fi 156). Maintains people had a non-judgemental view on bombing and saw the Allies as liberators. He never heard civilians cursing aircrew. Describes how he tried to forget the war until recently. In hindsight, he considers himself a lucky man because wartime hardships gave him a greater resilience that helped him later in life.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
bombing of Trieste (10 June 1944)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
shelter
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/49/405/ABencinaA160801.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bencina, Angelo
Angelo Bencina
A Bencina
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Angelo Bencina who recollects his wartime experiences in Monfalcone.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-01
Rights
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The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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Bencina, A
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IBCC Digital Archive
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AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare Angelo Bencina per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre. Siamo a Monfalcone, in provincia di Gorizia ed è il primo agosto 2016. Grazie per aver permesso quest’intervista. Sono inoltre presenti all’intervista il signor Tullio Sarcina, Pietro Comisso, Maurizio Radacich, Giulia Sanzina. Prima di cominciare vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata esattamente come desidera. È d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso l’università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e che infine essa sia liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi supporto e formato per mostre, attività di ricerca, istruzione e come risorsa online?
AB: D’accordo.
AP: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
AB: D’accordo.
AP: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato per l’International Bomber Command Centre?
AB: E sono d’accordo.
AP: Grazie. Possiamo cominciare. Come prima cosa, vorrei che lei mi raccontasse il più vecchio dei suoi ricordi. Che cosa si ricorda? Qual’è la cosa più antica che riesce a ricordare? Dov’era, cosa faceva?
AB: Innanzitutto bisogna calcolare che mi gavevo quatro ani perciò nel ’44 eh non xe che, insomma go tante memorie de attività che go fatto eccetera eccetera. Quel che me ricordo, la prima cosa che me xe restà impressa, disemo xe appunto il bombardamento de quel che me ricordo. Eh, sì, prima di tutto devo dir che mi abitavo, iero tra la stazion de Monfalcòn, vicin Via Randaccio disemo, Androna Randaccio e Via Romana. In pratica ierimo tra la stazion, la fabrica del gesso, la fabrica dell’oio, dopo iera la Solvay, iera la, in pratica, e dopo el cantier. In pratica, in pratica lì iera quasi tutti quanti. E quel che me ricordo più de tuto xe stà una sera che ga sonà, non xe che mi go sentì che ga sonà l’alarme ma i miei, i miei genitori, a un certo momento, i me ga ciapà, i me ga inbalado, disemo, e mi, qua go anche che ve go fato la cartina dove che abitavimo, in pratica semo circa a cento metri dalla stazion. Da lì se doveva andar alla Caverna Vergine, che xe altri cento metri su, oltre le sine, dove che iera un, intanto iera due rifugi, iera il rifugio della Caverna Vergine dopo là il rifugio iera dei pipistrei, Caverna dei Pipistrei, dopo più a sinistra iera altri ma quel lì xe una cosa che, in Via Romana iera altro, tutta roba della Prima Guerra Mondiale comunque. Quel che me ricordo mi xe questo: ciapado, imbalado, noi gavevimo una, dopo ve mostro lì se ve interessa, se andava da un passagio de un nostro vicin, se andava in Androna Randaccio, se piazzavimo, disemo, proprio davanti al piazzal della stasion, in quel momento lì, i me ga buttado, me papà, me mama iera lì, drio el mureto - che ve mostro anche quel iera fino a poco tempo iera proprio l’originale che xe el bar lì dalla stazion, quel fora - e lì semo stai sò ma mi me gaveva girà e quel che mi me ga restado ma molto impresso ancora oggi iera il ciel carigo de tondi rossi, de luci rosse e bianche, ecco quella roba lì xe quel che me ricordo che non, che me ricordo punto e basta. El resto neanche non me sono accorto che i me ga ciapà, me ga inbragado e semo andai in caverna, no. Ecco, quel se quel che mi me ricordo de quella notte. Per il ritorno neanche, probabilmente dormivo non so cosa, punto e basta. Un’altra roba che me ricordo sempre de quei giorni lì, però non iera de notte ma iera de giorno, andando sò da l’attuale, xe bon iera anche la vecia, xe, disemo la strada che dalla staziòn porta giù verso la fabbrica della pegola quella che xe lì a, ma porco cen, bon adesso non me vien in mente, Via Belforte e non la iera, non la iera disemo asfaltada, el iera de giorno però. In quel momento sentimo un rumor de aerei, vedemo cioè ierimo muli, muleria che zogavimo lì sò per la riva e iera dei apparecchi che gaveva due fusoliere, cioè non iera una sola ma iera due, e quel che ne restà impresso dove che andavimo, i buttava, iera tanti foglietti, non iera foglietti, iera come de argento, biglietti de argento che iera el ciel pien, pien, e luccicava perché era de giorno. E proprio qua davanti me xe passà un pacchetto cussì, che se vedi che non se ga sfoiado, e me xe cascà proprio addosso, dopo gò savu che i diseva che quelli serviva per confodere i radar eccetera eccetera, quella roba lì xe quel che me ricordo. Questo per quanto riguarda i bombardamenti de Monfalcòn. Dopo un poco, siccome mia mama la xe furlana, no, semo andai, questo qui non c’entra coi bombardamenti, penso, se gavemo, semo andai sfolladi in, a Saciletto de Ruda, eccola. Là invece semo stai abbastanza tempo fino a fine della guerra e lì me ricordo altre robe. Ad esempio mi me ricordo, a Saciletto che xe un castel, no, e quel che me ricordo ben ben xe che a un certo momento, bon, del castel me ricordo che verso, per andar verso Saciletto ghe iera un fossato, iera una porta tipo ovale, insomma come, rossa, era un canal, disemo sotto lì e l xe vegnu sò sta porta rossa, xe rivà un con la zampogna e se ga messo a suonare la zampogna. Se vedi che doveva esser sà gli inglesi o chi, quel che me ricordo lì. Dopo un’altra roba che me ricordo, ah sì, iera lì del, sempre nel vicin al castel, iera una piscina e senz’altro iera, iera i americani o inglesi, per mi la differenza no ghe iera. E quel che me ricordo iera che i beveva tanta di quella birra e dopo i faseva, iera la piscina carica dei bottiglie dei birra svode, e i doprava le bottiglie ma non, i ghe metteva un, allora acqua, quel che me ricordo mi, una goccia dei oio, un ferro incandescente, i faseva cussì, saltava la bottiglia, usava come bicier, questa xe quella roba che me ricordo mi. E dopo me ricordo, no, un‘altra roba, bon lì xe morto mio fradel che gaveva pochi anni, xe stà [unclear], xe stado sepellito a Saciletto, non go mai savu esattamente cos che gaveva, i diseva che iera cuore in cinque parti ma comunque. Un’altra roba che me ricordo, sì, un’altra roba de mia mama era, andava a Cervignan, da Cervignan a Saciletto e a metà strada la me ga contà quando che la xe arrivada a casa che, ela e una sua amica i se ga nascosto drio un alberon cussì grosso, che xe dove che xe la strada che da Cervignan Saciletto porta per andare a Gorizia anche. Era l’apparecchio che lo ga ciamà Pippo che le ga mitragliade e se ga salvà drio, drio l’albero ecco, anche questo me ricordo. E altre robe. Bon a parte, dopo la guerra lassemo star che voi non ve interesa naturalmente. Dopo la fine della guerra andavimo a caccia de balini robe varie perché andavimo, cioè gavevo un picon che pesava più de mi e noi lì in Via Romana iera campi e campi e andavimo a fero e poi vendevimo le schegge quel quel’altro. Quando trovavimo ad esempio una cova, la cova iera i balini de piombo, podeva esser quei della prima guerra, ma podeva esser anche roba della seconda e andavimo a venderlo in fondo a Via Romana, no. Un’altra roba, eh, un’altra roba gemo trovà anche armi e noi ierimo, disemo, se gavemo fatto la banda della Via Romana, la banda della Via del Pozzo eccetera eccetera ma dopo gavevimo noi ierimo giovanetti, cinque, sei anni, sette eccetera eccetera, però iera anche muleria anche molto più grande e lì se le davimo de santa ragione, non dico che se tiravimo coi mitra che gemo trovà anche dentro ma insomma andavimo lì. Più de un ghe ga lassà i diti o ghe ga lassà quell’altro, ma naturalmente eh bon. Adesso non vado avanti con le storie [laughs] perché altrimenti e andavimo sù per i monti a cercar roba anche dentro tra i busi, tra le grotte e ancora oggi se trova roba. Anche perché se come faso lo speleologo roba della prima poi ma la maggior parte perché della seconda non mi interessa. Dopo altre robe che me ricordo se quando che xe saltà in aria ad esempio la vecia strada per Trieste, allora faso ancora un passetto indrio. Qua iera, xe, iera stà i quarant giorni dell’invasion, cioè che iera vegniu i sloveni e siccome, e quel che me ricordo ancora xe che mia sia, cioè la sorella de me papà, io avevo due sorelle, el gaveva due sorelle, la xe stada anche e la ga ciamada perché la conosceva tre lingue come interprete tra italiani e sloveni la ga ciamada. Mio papà anche per noi, cioè noi, mio papà e le sue sorelle e la famiglia, lori saveva tedesco, italian e sloven perché i iera sotto l’Austria, i gà fatto scuole tedesche in pratica, no, e a causa de questo i ga podu anche salvar certa gente ecco tanto per, questo xe quel che me ga contà eh me papà e me zia eccetera eccetera. Un’altra roba della guerra meglio che lasemo perder perché altra roba cossa. Beh, andando in giro per i monti lì, andavimo specialmente a miccia, e andavimo a miccia allora se mettemo cominciado, allora il Monte Spaccà che iera una batteria da ottantotto tedesca, dopo la iera vicino a Ronchi a Villa Hinke anche lì iera una batteria tedesca da ottantotto. Dopo iera, quando perché noi andavimo alle terme romane che le iera, andavimo a far el bagno sotto no, e lì iera anche dei, una batteria tedesca doveva esser anche lì, dopo dovessi esser anche, no iera una batteria ma dovessi esser una mitragliatrice sulla rocca, no rocca, rocca e dopo xe la le Forcate e dopo xè la Gradiscata, sulla Gradiscata ancora oggi xe una piattaforma, lì doveva essere una mitragliatrice ancora oggi. Inutile che ve conto che nel andar in giro per il Carso cossa gavemo trovà eccetera eccetera, questo xe il meno quel che me ricordo mi. Perché in pratica fin al ’50 ecco andavimo sempre a cerca roba eccetera eccetera, se non altro per vender, per vender perché con diese lire ciollevimo il gelato oppure andavimo al cine. Ecco, tutto qui. Sta roba poi, ah sì bon, andavimo. Specialmente, dove che adesso xe la cartiera no iera el ponte, il ponte iera saltà, perché iera passà un carico de munizioni in un carro, però lì iera tanti de quei bossoli de cannon che andavimo sò, andavimo sotto anche, li tiraimo sù, svodavimo che iera della miccia bianca, me ricordo non capiso perché la iera bianca, e andavimo a vender i bossoli de otton per, sempre per ciapar qualcosa. E lì se andava avanti, cercar, cercar, cercar. Ah sì! Dopo, sa, nel ’46 go comincià ad andar a scola, anzi go la pagella del governo alleato addirittura prima elementare, se volè ve la anche ve la mostro perché penso de esser l’unico ad averla. E go tutto, perché mi tegno tutto, go prima seconda terza, e quel che me ricordo xè che i americani ne dava stecche de cioccolata, no stecche iera ehm scartossi grande come, no scartossi, scatolette come queste, le iera come se le gavessi cera color verde ma la iera talmente dura la cioccolata che metà basta, questo quel che me ricordo. Dopo finida la guerra, questo disemo periodo ’45, ’45-’46 sì, ’46 go comincià scola, dopo xè stado, ah, il cantier ga incomincià a metterse a posto e i ne ga portà, i ne portava in colonia, anche quel xè, in colonia, in montagna qua, le montagne vicin, e quel che me ricordo xè, mi non so ma quanto buona che iera la pasta sciutta che ne portava i militari, adesso non so se iera la pasta sciutta bona o la fame, comunque me ricordo anche quel. E dopo me ricordassi anche tanta roba ma lassemo perder perché non, non so.
AP: Il primo ricordo.
AB: Eh.
AP: Il suo bombardamento de notte.
AB: Esatto.
AP: Lei la se ricorda un circa le date, quando xe successo?
AB: La guardi, xe stà il primo bombardamento, adesso so che il primo bombardamento lo ga fatto il giorno de San Giuseppe ma adesso non so se xe quel, comunque xe notturno, xe la prima volta che me go ricordà de esser andado via, che me go girà e go visto carigo el ciel de ste luci, me ricordo le rosse senz’altro, sarà stà anche bianche altri colori non so ma le luci rosse se quelle che me xe stade proprio impresse. Son tornà più di una volta lì, no, e xe ancora sto muretto e dall’altra parte, ah sì quel me son dimenticà de dir, dall’altra parte xe cascà una bomba d’aereo. Fasè el conto, questo xe el muretto, no, però qua iera perché la strada de Androna Randaccio andava così, qua xe la osteria, go sentì, no mi go sentì, go ciapà e me ga buttà lì, la bomba xe cascada lì ma non la xe esplosa perché el terren iera mollo, mollo, mollo, perché se la esplodeva noi qua non se iera. E ogni volta che passavo, che passo fino a pochi anni fa perché adesso i gà messo aposto ma non xe che non me son accorto mi che xe cascà la bomba, me ga dito me papà, mio fradel, tutti quei lì no che iera cascà la bomba, iera una roba cussì però non la xe esplosa. Perché a cinquanta metri abitavimo lì noi no. E dopo, ah sì eh, e dopo noi gavevimo la casa li ancora sotto l’austria no, nel ’15, cioè semo diventai paroni nel ’15 ma semo vegniudi qua molto prima perché iera anche de Trieste, gavevimo parenti a Trieste. E quando che ga tirà, oltre a, i gà tirà anche i spezzoni, no, e un de quei spezzoni ga colpì, vicino alla stasion lì, ga colpì la nostra casa. E gavevimo una staletta noi, una stelatta in legno che dentro iera la cavra e un porcell, gavevimo cavra e porcell, addirittura quando che xe italiani ne ga fatto, i ne ga dito che noi semo agricoltori, gemo delle bestie, ne ga subito fatto pagar la tassa per quelle robe lì no. Eh bon, conclusion, le xe morte eccetera eccetera, go anche i documenti per i danni de guerra eccetera, eccetera, perché go ancora le carte de l’epoca, però non me ricordo neanche se ge ga dado perché voleva tante de quelle carte che non go ben capì se ge ga dà rivà a tirarle fora però il spesson lo go qua, perché se te vol te lo mostro adesso perché quel xe un ricordo. Noi non buttemo mai via niente! E’ questo, ailo qua.
AP: La me racconti la storia de questo oggetto.
AB: No, sto qua xe, questo qua ga brusà la staletta con le bestie e dopo un toco de casa. Mi non me son neanche, questo qua me lo ga dà me papà quando gavevo diese anni, lo me ga, lo tegniva, lo tegniva allora me gà spiegà cos che xe. Sto qua iera me par una robetta cussì lunga che li tirava sò per darghe fogo insomma, so che brusava brusava non so cos che iera dentro, sarà stà non so fosforo, cos che iera e questo iera quel che gavemo trovà tra le macerie lì della camera e lo tegnimo sempre come ricordo dell’epoca.
AP: La me ga parlà dei suoi genitori.
AB: Eh.
AP: I suoi, lei la iera piccolo, la me ga contà che la gaveva quattro, cinque anni.
AB: EH.
AP: Ma negli anni successivi i suoi genitori ge ga spiegà qualcosa della guerra, ge ga raccontado altre cose o i xe stadi zitti, che cosa ge ga raccontado? O come ge la ga spiegada?
AB: A dir la verità, me papà, alora, ierimo, roba della guerra so soltanto che me papà, me papà, me mamma, e me sia, allora una la iera a Milano, una mia sia, quell’altra mia sia [unclear] invece se vigniuda con noi e me papà, quando chi gavè, no della guerra non me ga contado niente.
AP: I xe sempre stadi.
AB: Mi so soltanto che lavorava in cantier, però dela guera non me ga contado niente. Però so soltanto che, finida la guerra, lui da Saciletto de Ruda fino in cantier andata e ritorno in bicicletta che sia piova che sia neve che sia perciò non iera tanto semplice la vita a quell’epoca, no. Altra roba della guerra, gavevimo un sio che faseva carabinier, lui ga sempre lavorà in quel cantier ecco. Altra roba non.
AP: La me ga contà prima de gente che ga perso.
AB: Come?
AP: La me ga contà de gente che ga perso diti, tirando su.
AB: Ah, eh, ma sì ma, allora, sì un de, ad esempio Mario, ma xè ancora vivo, Mario Satta che fa il tipografo, che iera uno dei nostri capi della banda de Via Romana ma più che capobanda lui iera me ricordo faseva lotta greco-romana, boxe eccetera eccetera e lì noi gaveimo in Via, gaveimo una grande cortivo che iera sei sette famiglie lì, ierimo tanta muleria gio, picia, dopo iera anche quei più grandi, e lì se davimo da far andar a cercar roba per vender e in più se faseva anche sport, ma sport tanto per dir. Buioi de latta che iera pomodori, una sbarra de ferro, incementà dentro con cemento per far sollevamento pesi, me ricordo che go fatto mi all’età de sette, otto anni, mi non so come go fatto, o diese gavevo, cinquantaquatro chili alsado ancora quel me ricordo. Dopo fasevimo boxe dentro tanto xe vero che go el naso spaccado perché go ciapà un bel carot. E dopo, dopo se zogava anche giochi un pochettin meno pericolosi tipo coi tapeti però quel che iera più de tuto, fasevimo i fusili col lastico, poi le cerobotane coi pomei, dopo le freccie con le ombrelle quelle lì iera gravi, andavimo a sgransi con le freccie e con le ombrelle per ciaparli. E lì se divertimo. Andavimo a fregar erba, ciamemo cussì panocie perché fasevimo anche allevamento de conigli ma ben sui trenta quaranta conigli, ma non solo mi, fasevimo tuti. Dopo fasevimo anche da Stolfa la coltivazion dei bachi da seta, anche quei. Andavimo a spigolar, andavimo a runcola, insomma se faseva de tuto per, questa xe. Apena finì la guerra però eh perché durante la guerra dopo semo andai in Friuli ecco ma dopo se gavemo, zogavimo a balòn le prime squadre, tipo la della Via Romana gavemo zogà tuti, dopo xe cioè e altra roba.
AP: Lei la me ga parlà de scola.
AB: Eh.
AP: A scola I ve ga contà qualcosa della guerra o niente? Come ve la ga contada?
AB: No, a scola, quel che mi me ricordo de scola xe che go sempre odiado Garibaldi! Mi go fato prima, seconda, terza, quarta e quinta. In terza se dava l’esame, non come adesso, se dava l’esame in terza e in quinta. I me ga chiesto de Garibaldi, ancora oggi mi lo odio. Perché per mi Garibaldi xe un mercenario ecco, allora sa quella volta non me andava zò, no perché quando che se rivai qua i ga incomincià a inculcarne in pratica. Inso mma, italian, italian, italian! Ma noi savevimo anche, noi ierimo austro-ungarici anche e mi go sempre sentì parlar ben de l’Austria-Ungheria tanto è vero che oggi mi fazo parte anche dei Freiwilligen Schützen, tra parentesi, no. Come che la conta, perché mi me dispiasi ma non me va, non me va italiani.
AP: E quindi anche gli italiani ghe ga contà qualcosa dei bombardamenti, della guerra?
AB: De, allora della guerra per forza, la fasi conto che ad esempio là sotto, el tunnel sotto la Rocca noi lo conoscevimo quando che andavimo a fregar roba perché lì era, el primo toco xe naturale e dopo il resto i lo ga fatto artificiale, no. Lì andavimo a veder se trovavimo. Sotto lì iera tedeschi, che lì dopo i portava le munizioni, anche le munizioni dove che iera ottantotto e in più so anche sora la Gradiscata perché lì, prima de andar alla Gradiscata iera una caverna che la ciamavimo al Caverna dei colombi e dentro iera cussì e sotto iera ancora, iera un pozzo che dentro iera anche delle pistole, quello me ricordo. E insomma, noi cercavimo sempre roba per andar a vendere ecco. Però tutti i busi che xe qua posso contarghele un per un eh! Ad esempio lì dalla stasion i ga, disemo i ga messo un’inferriata sora un buso perché iera pericoloso. Dopo xe, andavimo alla, ah sì fasevimo raccolto ma roba della prima guerra invece al mulin che iera al lago de Pierarossa, fasevimo raccolta de settantacinque. Li gavemo messi sotto el ponte in un buso così gavemo carigà, un bel giorno se trovemo che faseva lavori, le cose ne ga fregà tutti i settantacinque. Dopo lì dalla cava, ah lì dalla cava, altra roba che me ricordo, braghette curte, sò dalla cava, quella che xe in Via Romana, due bombe in scarsela, son andà in stasion lì dalla polizia, go trovà ste qua [laughs] ghe digo. Ga ciamà mia mare, go ciapà tante di quelle pacche che metà basta. Ecco, da quella volta non le go mai più portade a casa. Messe sempre da parte però. E dopo se ga trovà roba che ancora oggi esisti ma non ge la disemo a nessuno. Roba, roba della prima, roba della prima però. E posti iera roba della seconda. La xe là sepolta e che resti sepolta.
AP: Go un’altra curiosità.
AB: Come?
AP: Lei la ga fioi?
AB: Go due fie.
AP: Sì.
AB: No, la scusi, no due fie, due nipotine. Allora là xe la sacra famiglia se vedi no, ecco, quella là sotto xe mia fia con le due nipotine. Quello là xe suo marì. Sora xe mio fio, quelle là xe le mie nipotine, allora xe mio fio con la mula e mia fia col marì. I abita, son stà, son tornado, son tornado il giorno undici. I abita, allora, mia fia, la xe laureada in fisioterapia e la xe andada in Francia e comunque la se ga sposada in Francia, la xe sui Pirenei, dalla parte dell’Oceano Atlantico, in pratica xe proprio sul confin con la Spagna. La ga comprà una malga insomma col marì tutto quanto, una vecia stala la ga messa a posto e xe ventimila metri quadri. E la ga ciamà la malga la ga ciamada ‘ciapaquà’, forse non la sa cosa significa ciapaquà ma comunque ‘malga ciapaquà’. Due nipotine, una da sei anni, una da nove anni. Le sa el talian, perché ge mandemo su roba de, sa meglio de mi el talian el che, sa el talian, sa el spagnolo e sa el francese.
AP: Ecco, volevo domandarghe, a fioi e nipoti, lei ghe ga mai contado de queste cose?
AB: No, no mai.
AP: Cossa ghe diseva?
AB: No, no, no i me ga mai, a parte il fatto che sia me fia che me, suo marì i xe antimilitaristi, antimilitaristi insomma, i ga fatto baruffa perché ghe iera passà uno per i campi lì la sora de lori col fusil ghe ga dito de tutto, perciò non go togado quell’argomento. Ah, da pici, la parla da pici?
AP: Da pici o adesso.
AB: Allora da pici xe poco da dir perché insieme anche a Tullio lì, a sei anni gemo incomincià a far i scout, in pratica son boy scout ancora adesso. Perciò vita all’aria aperta tutto quanto eccetera eccetera. Go lavorà, allora femo così, go lavorà in Germania anche perché dovevo andar a far il militar ma mi il militar non lo volevo farlo no. Allora me ga mandà rivedibile una volta, rivedibile quell’altra, a un certo momento digo mi son andà a lavorar, son andà alle scuole avviamento che per mi xe le scuole migliori che sia mai stade anche se i le ga eliminade. Lì go imparà a lavorar, go avudo dei professori veramente boni veramente. Se son andà a lavorar in Germania che so far sia il piastrellista, sia il saldador, sia il tornidor, sia il falegname. Gavemo avu un avviamento al lavoro che xe stado qualcosa de bel. A un certo momento, bon, dovevo andar a far il militar. Bon, speta, speta, go trovà lavoro di qua, go trovà lavoro di là, [unclear], bon, speto un anno, speto due, allora un mio amico sempre, oh sempre scoutismo eh, mio amico scout el se ga diplomado in ragioneria, lui faseva la quarta bon allora cosa, me ga imprestà i libri a mi, mi me go messo digo si sa cossa far pet che me metto a studiar anche mi no. Bon. Allora sì, iera semplice studiar però el bel xe questo, sempre per quanto riguarda italiani no. Allora, bon, comincià a studiar. Allora noi gavemo fatto scuola de avviamento industriale, gavemo fato delle sezioni, dei disegni tecnici ma roba ma lavoro de tornio, allora ‘ti non te pol far perché non te ga fatto le medie!’ come non go fatto le meidie? eh non go fato le medie, bon ah, me ga toccà dar l’esame della terza media compreso el latin. Siccome me mancava tre anni prima de, bon allora l’esame de terza media, go dà l’esame della prima ragioneria, son andà direttamente in seconda, go fatto seconda terza e quarta, in quarta go dà l’esame de quinta e su ottantadue de lori semo stai promossi mi e quel che studiavimo insieme. Tiè! Son partì per militar, ah momentin. Quando fasevo scuola a Gorizia, andavo da Viertaler e ghe disevo, la guardi che i miei voti xe cussì, cussì, cussì, posso finir un mese prima? Sì se [unclear], sì. E allora finivo un mese prima, andavo in Germania a lavorar in fabbrica e tornavo un mese dopo. E cussì per i tre anni e cussì go imparà anche il tedesco za che iero, no. Go dà l’esame naturalmente, in quarta go dà anche l’esame de quinta e son andà militar. Son andà militar e bon, go fatto el militar a, allora a Orvieto il CAR e invece a Pordenon coi 132 Brigata corazzata ‘Ariete’, carrista. Sul mio carro gavevo, guarda caso, solo che altoatesini, se parlava in tedesco. Insomma, mi me piasi quella vita lì e po bon. Alla fine ga dito, vuole mettere, se voglio mettere firma, magari, sa, ghe go dito, ma non sotto l’esercito italian ghe digo no. Perché me gavevo, gavevo un tenetin de Roma, no, che ne voleva metter sull’attenti, allora lui voleva punirme mi e mi invece lui lo go punido nel senso che go dito non si presenta all’appello, non fa così, non fa colà, perciò che me capita sotto la naja uno cussì. E dopo, siccome go tutti i, anche tutte le carte, me son accorto soltanto due anni fa, che mettevo a posto le carte, che me volevo far el militar ma se me trovo un maresciallo che me metti sull’attenti. Sa cosa che xe successo? Che nel mio congedo i me ga scritto:’diploma de terza avviamento superiore’. Perché se i me scriveva che son perito, che son ragioniere perito commerciale, i me faseva far l’ufficiale, no. E allora go dito, ecco, che fortunato che son.
AP: Volessi farghe ancora due domande.
AB: Eh.
AP: Quando praticamente, tornemo per un attimo al tempo del, della seconda guerra mondiale, quando lei la vedeva scender queste luci
AB: Sì, sì.
AP: Lei cosa la pensava? Xe delle persone che ghe sta tirando addosso? Che xe una specie dei spettacolo?
AB: Ghe posso dir solo una roba, non savevo cos che iera. E non go capì che iera guerra, ecco. Cioè, mi me son accorto che iera la guerra quando che semo andai a Saciletto.
AP: Dove che la ga capido cosa iera successo.
AB: Esatto. E me ricordo ancora un’altra cosa, me ricordo che scavavimo dove che xe le mura del castel, el porton, non so se la xe mai stada là de quelle parti, ma ierimo mi e mio cugin, gavemo tirà fora dei birilli cussì, iera bombe a man, ancora oggi me lo ricordo ben. E dopo me ricordo ancora lì dal pontisel che iera un toco de coso de bazooka cussì. E lì me ricordo ancora che correvo drio ai carri armati e go ancora una cicatrice qua che son cascà dal bordo di un scalin de, non me ricordo.
AP: Carri armati che iera inglesi o americani.
AB: Oh, per mi iera, se iera quel con la zampogna mi pareva.
AP: Podeva esser inglesi.
AB: Podeva esser inglesi.
AP: E adesso l’ultima domanda. Lei la me ga dito che, quando che la iera picio
AB: Eh.
AP: ghe sembrava una roba che non la capiva, la vedeva queste luci.
AB: Esatto, non savevo, ecco esatto.
AP: Quindi iera soltanto un spettacolo. Adesso xe passà settant’anni.
AB: Lo go ancora come iero cussì. Ancora, uguale. Uguale.
AP: Percui lei non la ga cambià idea sulle persone, sugli aerei.
AB: No. Uguale uguale, come il pacchetto de strisce, disemo, che me xe cascà davanti cussì. Iera de giorno. E, iera che luccicava ma luci, iera una bella giornata de sol e iera sti argenti che luccicava che iera, iera che bel, che bel, che bel, pum! Un pacchetto de roba, iera lunghi cussì, cussì, un paccheto cussì, paf! Larghe così. Quel xe quelle robe che me ricordo più de tutte proprio. Proprio de, ciamemolo guerra perché se i rivava, se i disturbava i radar penso che iera ancora qualcosa, no.
AP: Certo. E adesso, cosa la pensa de chi volava sugli aerei? Perché questi qua ghe tirava bombe in testa.
AB: Eh bon, oh, [laughs], a dir la verità.
AP: La ga mai pensado a la guerra?
AB: No, no, no. Così no. Oh, mi me piasi, ghe digo subito che ad esempio me piasi, allora, me piasi Stukas. Allora i Stukas per conto mio per farli i ga, i li ga fatti drio agli albatros o drio agli oocai, mentre quegli inglesi senz’altro i li ga fatti perché per via della picchiata proprio l’altro giorno che i mostrava sta roba qua. Le rondini senz’altro xe stade, se stade dixemo pensade, cioè i Spitfire pensadi per le rondini perché le ga delle virate che xe qualcosa. E sta roba qua la go pensada anche quando son stado lì ultimamente in Spagna, in Francia dopo in Spagna che la ghe iera tante de quelle rondini, faseva tante virate mi me pensava de veder i Spitfire ghe digo subito. Roba della seconda guerra mondiale, vedo tutti i film, tutto quanto perché me piasi, no. Della prima poi xe tutto altro de quel che posso contar vita e miracoli, ma della seconda.
AP: Questo xe quel che la se ricorda.
AB: Eh?
AP: Questo xe quel che la se ricorda.
AB: Sì, della seconda, oddio a parte, a parte i film oppure i libri che legio.
AP: Certo.
AB: Ma libri della seconda se pol dir che no legio, stago leggendo adesso Rommel in tedesco la guardi lei. Ecco.
AP: Va bene, Angelo. Xe sta una bellissima intervista. Grazie, te ne ga contà delle cose veramente interessanti.
AB: Sì, neanche non, [laughs], ah, forse, dopo me vien in mente sempre a pici no, sotto i portici drio el campanil lì de Monfalcon ghe iera DDT e MCC, iera quando ch’i xe vegnudi e l dava el DDT la sà per disinfettar e vegnu fora la frase:’Duce, Duce torna, ddt, magari con Claretta’. [laughs] Vegnu fora, con cossa che.
AP: Questa xe bellissima.
AB: Quelle robe che, vabbè, eh oh!
AP: Bene.
AB: Queste xe la roba che, sì ma no ma.
AP: Allora, xe sta delle bellissime storie. Le la me ga contà delle cose che mi non savevo, quindi grazie, xe stà una bellissima storia e xe stà una storia che probabilmente anche agli altri ghe piaserà ascoltarla. E quindi semo veramente contenti che lei ne ga fatto far questa intervista, penso che sia riuscida benissimo e non posso che ringraziarla.
AB: E adesso posso offrirve qualcosa de bever?
AP: Molto volentieri.
AB: Allora cominciemo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Angelo Bencina
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Angelo Bencina recalls wartime memories in Monfalcone: a cave being modified as a shelter; the descent of bright red and white target indicators at night; a bomb which nearly missed him and didn’t explode; Window radio counter-measures being dropped. Describes how incendiaries hit his parents’ house, which suffered heavy damage and explains that he has kept a spent fragment as a keepsake ever since. Retells the story of his mother being caught-up in a bombing attack with a friend and how they survived by hiding behind a large tree. Remembers American soldiers giving chocolate to him which was difficult to chew. Describes how he and his friends used to salvage shell cases and military equipment for their scrap value and with the money they would buy cinema tickets and ice creams. Stresses his anti-Italian sentiments and his appreciation for German culture, a position compounded by his admiration for the Hapsburg Empire and a keen interest in the history of the First World War. Mentions how he avoids talking of war memories with his relatives, who are avid pacifists.
Creator
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Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-01
Format
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00:41:36 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ABencinaA160801
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Monfalcone
Italy
Coverage
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Civilian
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
target indicator
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/52/406/PVivodaP1601.2.jpg
0a9669cd0c82e0690cf10d70cc92201d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/52/406/AVivodaP160801.1.mp3
9b976da663dd8437bff97a3e04eeb2d0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vivoda, Paolo
Pietro Vivoda
P Vivoda
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Paolo Vivoda who recollects his wartime experiences in Monfalcone.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Vivoda, P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PC: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare Pietro Vivoda, detto Paolo, per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center. Siamo a Monfalcone, in provincia di Gorizia, è il 1 agosto 2016. Grazie Paolo per aver permesso questa intervista. Sono presenti all’intervista Giulio, Giulia Sanzone, Pietro Comisso, Maurizio Radacich. Prima di cominciare vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata come desidera. È d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso l’Università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’Università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e che infine essa sia liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi supporto/formato per mostre, attività di ricerca, istruzione e come risorsa online?
PV: Sì.
AP: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
PV: Sì.
AP: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato per l’Archivio Digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center?
PV: Sì.
AP: Grazie, possiamo cominciare. Dunque Paolo, grazie per questa intervista, per cominciare vorrei chiederle: qual è il più remoto ricordo che riesce a recuperare? Qual è l’evento più distante nel tempo che si ricorda?
PV: Questo de la guera, senz’altro pol esser un avvenimento lontano, lontanissimo, [pause] probabilmente proprio quel giorno, ho una foto de esser su, sulle ginocchia de un soldato tedesco, sul camion dove vengono caricati i feriti; ho soltanto una foto di questo, e probabilmente in quel momento è parché no son mai stado poi, né prima né dopo, in ospedal de conseguenza [pause].
AP: Cos’era successo in quel giorno?
PV: Quel giorno l’è stado un spettacolo teatrale al teatro del cantier di, de Monfalcon, durante le ore de lavoro parché non era, non erano presenti i lavoratori ma i famigliari, spettacolo che, de magia, del, Dolfo, par mi era Dolfo ma gaveva un nome simile, il mago e quel che ricordo, che ricordo, l’è un ricordo forse ‘nche ricostruido, ricostruido da mia mamma perché de lei me ricordo benissimo le ferite, le ferite sulle gambe, sulla schiena, anche ferite con degli, grandi cicatrici, e dopo quando se parlava del quele cicatrici, dello spettacolo, del bombardamento, del, dela fuga, dela fuga nel bunker, via dal teatro nel bunker, non mi ricordo le persone però mia mamma diceva sempre che la nonna Boscal col nipote Paolo, metri, cinque, dieci metri dietro a noi dove son rimasti entrambi, vittime, due persone che abitavan nella casa di fronte, quindi. Una delle tante cose del tempo remoto, perché a Monfalcone, a Panzano cerca, nella parte dei cantieri ne iera tantissime de case rotte, per noi era le case rotte, case distrutte dai bombardamenti, e la mia per fortuna no, quelle vicine no, però a cinquanta, cento metri de via de casa mia ghe n’era tantissime de distrutte. Sotto casa mia c’era un grande bunker, uno dei grandi, duecento persone; mi ricordo che passavo tantissimo tempo nel bunker perché era proprio sotto casa mia, e quando sentivo un rumor de un aereo gridavo ‘Mamma, penchi, penchi’, e via in bunker, ‘ndavo anche solo in bunker, e avevo due anni, tre anni, questo me ricordo! Me ricordo anche che lì vicin era, veniva de guardia un vecchio soldato tedesco, de guardia del posto, che lui avendo un figlio della mia età me portava spesso caramelle, cioccolata, qualcosa da, de conforto a mi: el mio, el mio ‘chicchecco’. Ecco questa sé i ricordi, i primi ricordi che go, i ricordi dela guera, dopo comincia a essere i ricordi dopo la guera. Un altro ricordo che digo sempre, che quando sono nato mio, mio ‘pà è andato in Carnia a prende una capra, e la ga portada a Panzan e mi son cresciudo col late de capra, mi son [laughs] un cornuto dall’inizio [laughs], capre che poi gavemo, ecco quel el me ricordo ben perché le gavemo poi fin al 1950-51, quindi me le ricordo ben. Altri ricordi de quel momento non, non go perché iero troppo piccolo, dopo penso che ze stadi anche, iera ricordi de mio fradel, de mia mamma, de mio papà più che miei, no, quindi.
AP: Cosa, cosa la se ricorda de questi racconti? perché magari dopo la guerra o dopo che sé finida, magari se ricorda qualcosa [unclear].
PV: Sì, me ricordo che la sé finida, me ricordo dopo la guera che iera forse più guera che no prima, per noi no, va ben i bombardamenti iera pesanti, ma me ricordo quando mime son sveado per ‘no scoppio sotto casa nostra, quando che i meteva le bombe perc, per, per impaurir per intim, per farche timora ale persone che dimostrava simpatia per, per la Jugoslavia, per la, per Tito disemo; e g’aveva messo ‘na bomba sotto casa nostra dove che poi, due giorni dopo, la zente che doveva ‘ndar sé ‘ndadi via parché i ‘va capio. Me ricordo, me son sveado perché era tutte le lastre rotte, no iera più’na lastra intiera, e questo succedeva nel ’46.
AP: Quindi dopo la guerra.
PV: [pause] Giusto, nel ’42, nel ’47, sì nel ’46, perché poi ‘l nipote di questa signora nasse nel ’47, a Pola, quindi, giusto nel ’46 , forse era anche il ’45 ‘ncora eh, ‘pena ‘penna finita la guera. So che sé stadi tanti casi a Monfalcon de questo, de bombe, de scoppi, de, ricordo che mio fradel andava a scuola, diseva ‘Ah ma mi, tornavo casa de scola, l’ho visto, ‘l mat in bicicleta, se passà, tirà fora la pistola [mimics gunshot] ghe ha sparado a uno’, pe’ strada eh!, davanti de tutti, quindi ecco questo sé, no sé un ricordo mio ma sé quel che diseva lui, ‘vea cinque anni in più de mi, quindi. Ha visto, ha visto meo de mi quel che era la guera.
AP: Lei me ga parlà de sua mamma con delle cicatrici molto evidenti.
PV: Sì, sì.
AP: Sua mamma cosa g’ala contado de questa , de questo fatto?
PV: Ehh che zera successo in quel, in quela volta che semo ‘ndai a veder el teatro, e che mi ero in braccio de mia mamma, mio fradel era per mano, e prima de entrar nel bunker, stavamo entrando nel bunker, sé stado questo scoppio vicinissimo, dove che ela l’è stada molto ferida, mi me ricordo che ‘veva le cicatrici su una gamba, che da ‘na parte iera entrde delle schegge da l’altra che iera uscide, quindi me ricordo del genocio de mia mamma, e poi della schena de mia mamma, e poi quel ela raccontava che mi ero in braccio de ela, me fradel che iera per man sé rimasto completamente spogliado dallo spostamento d’aria, e poi quel che raccontava che dal cantier vien fora tutti, va in cerca de la gente, mio papà trova mia mamma, torva mio fradel e mi no ’l me trova: ‘l me trova due giorni dopo, no iero né fra i vivi né fra i morti; me trova due giorni dopo tutto, tutto fasciado, probabilmente mi no go dito niente, non, no so quanto che rivavo a cavar o quanto che savevo parlar, e mi no g’avevo niente, ero tuto fassado, ma probabilmente dovudo al sangue de me mama, non mio perché mi no go vudo niente, niente altro che, che questo puntin, penso che poi chi, chito che g’abbi dato importanza a ‘na roba del genere, ma no sé gnanca un graffio, perché no sé un segno esterno, e no sé una roba grossa, perché se g’avevo ‘na roba più grossa probabilmente no ero qua, ehh. Quindi, poi sé tutte ricongiutture che sé restade, mi no go mai dado tant’importanza, serto se fossi viva mia mamma oggi ghe domandassi qualcosa in più, ma perché, perché me sé stado destado un attimo de più interesse su questo, se no, se no.
AP: Certo. Quindi lei no la ga mai parlado con i suoi genitori de queste cose qua ?
PV: Sì, sì se ga parlado perché mi sta roba la so dovù da lori, no.
AP: Certo.
PV: Mio papà ga dita ‘Ciò no trovarte fra i vivi iera longhi, no te go trovà gnanca fra i morti’. E dopo iera vignù fora che quei che era drìo de noi, che mi cono, conossevo, mi no me li ricordo perché no me ricordo quela roba lì, ma la nona e ‘l nipote Paolo sono come mi, lori iera rimasti sotto al bombardamento; e l’è stadi anche più morti quella volta perché chi che era stado fora dal bunker iera spacciado.
AP: Un secondo fa lei la ga parlà de un puntino e la se ga indicà la fronte: de cosa se tratta esattamente?
PV: Una, una stella de metallo, un puntin de metallo. Questo sé venudo fuori dopo quarant’anni quando me sta, me sta diagnosticado due ‘carenze nel visus’ , quindi l’oculista me g’avea diagnosticado de metter su i ociai, e la mia dottoressa la ga voludo che fasso i raggi in testa, che non sia qualcos’altro, e iera vignù fora questo, questo stellina de metallo, questo, che sé in mezzo proprio all’osso, perché leggermente qua a sinistra ‘vemo l’osso spesso sei millimetri circa, in mezzo all’osso sé questa scheggia de metallo, che poi mi, chiedendo, digo come posso cavarmi questa scheggia, e l’unica, l’unica pol esser solo che quel bombardamento perché non, non son mai stado in altri momenti; e poi se te ciapi una qualsiasi roba in testa te resta la cicatrice se te ga un bel taio, ma no te resta dentro niente, questa invece iera proprio un, un niente che sé restado dentro ma che sui raggi se lo vedi, e che me g’aveva molto meraviglià quando sé vignuda fora sta roba, solo che mi g’avevo già ormai quarantacinque anni, sì me g’aveva meravigliado però sé finido là insomma, no, no ghe go dat tanta importanza, no me ga mai dado disturbi e ghe ho dita ‘Questa sé una scheggia americana, domanderò i danni, domanderò la pension ai americani, no’ [laughs], che poi no ho mai fatto niente ovviamente [laughs].
AP: Questo sé un aspetto interessante il, all’epoca, cioè, lei la sé stada una persona che se ga preso una bomba addosso, che cosa la pensava de quei eventi? O come ghe li ga spiegadi? Perché ela la sé stado ferido quando l’era ancora bambino, in genere i bambini da piccoli chiedi ‘Perché?’, chiedi giustificazioni: glila ga chiesto informazioni ai suoi genitori, o i suoi genitori, in qualche maniera, ghe ga spiegado cos’era successo?
PV: Ma se ne ga tanto parlà dela guera, poi la guera no ‘a iera finida nel ’45, ga continuado perché qua da noi ga continuado avanti ancora, gente che spariva, gente che, sé lapidi a Monfalcon del ’47 o ’48 che sé stai copadi qualchidun per motivi politici, per motivi pfff, sì più che altro politici. Monfalcon ga ‘na storia abbastanza, poco, poco conossuda penso, ma sé stado un sacco de gente che ga lassado Monfalcon e che sé ‘ndada nella futura Jugoslavia de Tito, nella democrazia futura, no; sé anche tanti ritornadi, e tanti no sé ritornadi perché no i podeva tornar, ma noi g’avemo g’avudo tantissima gente, quindi quel, la guerra no iera solo la guera de bombardamento, perché qua iera, no iera solo la guera del tedesco; quando mi go visto che sé stado portado via, ecco, mi me ricordo questo, ‘l mio tedesco l’era stado portado via da due neozelandesi, finida la guera, quindi quei giorni là, lui sè stado portado via perché frequentava una signora che era ‘na casa vicin, ma iera ‘na roba normale insomma, l’era ‘na roba, mi son nato nela guerra e quindi par mi la guera doveva esser la roba più normale de ‘st mondo, no; poi finalmente e per fortuna la ga anche finido.
AP: Certo. E adesso a distanza de settant’anni, la pensa ancora che sia una cosa normale? Magari ga cambiado?
PV: Noi no semo più entradi in guerra, però oggi noi gavemo soldati italiani che i sé in venti, venti, venticinque parti nel mondo per le guerre: l’è terribile [emphasis]! Però sé la realtà.
AP: Capisso.
PV: L’Europa no sé più in guera direttamente, forsi, forsi invece la sé, la sé diversa, perché vedemo cos che sé oggi in Europa, eh! [scoffs].Quindi la guera sé sempre. Sé una pochi de anni che digo che l’omo, l’omo sé veramente la, l’animale più bestia, no, le bestie no, sé animali, noi semo bestie, perché se continua a ricoparse come che fossimo, oppure co’ quela ‘Sé notizie?’, ieri sé stado sbarcado milleduecento persone, milleduecento ieri, un giorno l’è sta tremila persone, sbarca la nostra Marina o altre marine anche, in Italia de zente che scampa, ma semo nel 2016, no semo nel ’45.
AP: All’inizio dell’intervista lei la ga usado un’espressione curiosa, “penchi”, ‘penchi, penchi’, che cosa vuol dir? Il suo soldato tedesco.
PV: Eh, ‘l ‘Chechecco’.
AP: Sì.
PV: “Chechecco”. Tedesco par mi iera ‘chechecco”, no, nel mio linguaggioera ‘chechecco” perché co’ ‘na roba che mi gavevo imparado prima de dir altre parole mi g’veo imparado a dir ‘Pà’, questo no melo ricordo mi ma era un racconto de mia mamma che mi andavo dalla signora che abitava sotto de casa mia, che la iera friulana de Campolongo, de, sì me par de Campolongo, e che ‘ndavo a domandarghe ‘Tina, Tina pan’, mi no savevo dir né ‘bongiorno” né niente ma saveo dir ‘Tina pan’ ‘E non lo go ancora fatto, vien dopo’, ‘va ben, va ben, vado de Anna’; andavo de ‘n’altra signora, ‘Anna pan’: mi rivavo aportar casa un tocco de pan che lori i rivava a far e che noi, sì probabilmente iera fatto anche da noi perché mio papà a cio’ ‘l sal a Punta Sdobba co’ la bicicletta e i lo portava in Carnia, pe’ portar casa qualcosa de magnar, come che ha portà casa la capra, faseva anche questo. Però no zera de mia prima persona, sé robe riportade dopo, no, perché mi non le go viste.
AP: Certo.
PV: Eh! [pause] Però sé ricordi de quella volta, ricordi che poi magari mi li go anche lassadi andar, che orami pe’ fortuna no i ga presguido, no, mentre qualchidun, ecco quei ch’era ‘ndati a Pola, dopo anni, quando che sé tornadi, che i me contava, lori i ga continuado ‘na vita così, un poco avventurosa anche dopo, che per noi no la iera insomma.
AP: Bene, ghe vien in mente qualcos’altro?
PV: [pause] No.
AP: Bene Paolo, è stà una bellissima intervista, grazie! Go imparà delle cose che mi, personalmente, no savevo, quindi grazie per ‘verme contà delle cose così interessanti. I miei colleghi all’università sarà contentissime de ‘scoltarla, e quindi se no la ga niente de, d’altro de aggiunger podemo finir qua.
PV: Niente, ringrazio voi e fatene buon uso.
AP: Grazie.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Paolo Vivoda
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Paolo Vivoda remembers a bombing attack which started moments before the show of the stage magician Delfo, his mother barely made to the shelter and was injured, others died. Paolo lost contact with his parents, only for them to reappear two days afterwards, alive but covered in bandages. Describes the shelter under his house able to accommodate about 200 people and mentions a friendly German soldier who used to bring sweets and food to the children. Describes the heated political situation in Monfalcone after the war and mentions a recent CT scan which revealed a tiny, painless, metal splinter still embedded in his forehead.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:10 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Marco Dalla Bona
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AVivodaP160801
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
entertainment
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/991/7644/PBuvoliA1801.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/991/7644/ABuvoliA180702.1.mp3
3c7127d35c86a549ce24a9ea29707f55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione
IFSML
Description
An account of the resource
Two item. An interview with Alberto Buvoli, who recollects his wartime experiences in Udine and in the Friuli area, and a propaganda flyer produced after an Allied bombing.
Permission to publish the collection has been kindly granted by the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Udine, Italy).
The collection has been catalogued by IBCC staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
his content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
IFSML
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alberto Buvoli
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:30:12 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABuvoliA180702
PBuvoliA1801
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Udine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Alberto Buvoli recollects his wartime childhood in Udine, when he lived in the railway station area. Describes how furniture was moved to a safer place at the onset of the war and explains air raid precautions, such as leaving the windows open and putting paper strips on glass panes. Mentions the standard attack sequence consisting of strafing, bombing, and finally dropping incendiaries. Reminisces the smell of fires and the sight of spent incendiary devices.
Explains the differences between different kinds of shelters: tunnels;
re-purposed basements beneath substantial buildings; and small, private, concrete structures. Reminisces about heavy bombing which destroyed his home, how they were temporarily housed inside a tunnel and his subsequent life as an evacuee in the countryside. Narrates an episode in which German soldiers showed appreciation for piano music and later came back to enjoy the homely atmosphere of his flat. Describes the conflict as a relatively care-free period: his parents tried in every way to protect him from the horrors of war while farmers provided non-rationed supplies. Bombings were an unavoidable consequence in the state of war.
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/419/7645/PNicolisI1801.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/419/7645/ANicolisI180615.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Inge Nicolis
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:02:06 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ANicolisI180615
PNicolisI1801
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Description
An account of the resource
Inge Nicolis, the daughter of a Swedish engineer and an Italian woman, reminisces about her wartime experiences in Milan. She stresses the sense of having been thrown into a tragedy and the anguish of not being able to evacuate Milan on the grounds of her nationality. Provides details of her education and her difficult relationships with teachers and her school mates, on the grounds of cultural and religious differences. Describes the practical attitude of her caring and protective father, who was also a warden, and the behaviour of her mother, who was affected by the bombings, near to breaking point and resorted to different coping strategies. Describes everyday life in Milan mentioning civil defence practices, family conversation about ongoing war events, blackout, and her friendly relationships with local Gipsy communities. Provides a vivid account of one of the first bombings she eye-witnessed from the rooftop of her house and contrasts the incident with later attacks, which were much more severe. Reminisces widespread destruction and fear of danger, although tempered by a fatalistic attitude. Describes the atmosphere of horror of the Piazzale Loreto killings (10 August 1944), and later the sight of Benito Mussolini and other senior Fascists on public display at the same spot (29 April 1945). Links the experience of being at the receiving end of the bombing war with her strong pacifist stance and the disposition to side with the underdog.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-10
1945-04-29
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending OH transcription
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
coping mechanism
fear
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/420/7646/ATencaMontiniN180613.1.mp3
37974c4a4e8763b561718fcbcd24b570
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Nino Tenca Montini
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-13
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:35:31 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATencaMontiniN180613
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Udine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Nino Tenca Montini reminisces about his wartime experiences in Udine and in the Friuli region. Describes the family shelter as a concrete reinforced basement, sparsely furnished with wooden benches. Recalls the urge to escape the vigilance of adults and dash out to see the damage and pick up scrap and spent shells. Reminisces about a Cossack distraught by the death of his horse after a bombing. Recollects his countryside life as an evacuee in Gervasutta, Terenzano e Forni di Sopra, where he eye-witnessed the aftermath of the Forni di Sotto reprisal. Describes shelters in the countryside consisting of dug outs or bell towers, and reminisces the awe of watching low-flying bombers surrounded by anti-aircraft fire explosions. Reminisces about being strafed while on a country road and stresses the inaccuracy of popular depictions of shelter life in media: people were silent and pensive, not agitated. Elaborates on the legitimacy of the bombing war being sympathetic with aircrew. Considers himself lucky for escaping the war unharmed, expresses his closeness with the victims of present day conflicts and stresses his distaste for military life.
animal
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
perception of bombing war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/421/7647/AAn01688-180615.2.mp3
4eddf1d2c6a980b6bc0d339c5779b361
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with an eye-witness of Milan bombings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:21:11 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn01688-180615
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Description
An account of the resource
The informant describes two bombings he eye-witnessed in the Sesto San Giovanni and Niguarda area. During the first, he was in a basement adapted as underground shelter: he recollects women reciting the rosary and a queasy sensation in the stomach caused by explosions. During the latter he found himself in an open space in which trenches have been dug and saw the bombs falling. Describes how he gradually became used to violence and destruction; the sense of danger being tempered by his natural inquisitiveness. Stressed the inefficiency of anti-aircraft fire and the gradual escalation of the bombing war. Mentions the widespread sense of solidarity and mutual support: factory workers pilfering coal at great personal risk, and the role of the “Soccorso Rosso” clandestine mutual support network. Recalls an atmosphere of fear and episodes of violence, mentioning loathed Fascist militiamen and episodes of the resistance in Milan. Elaborates on how the bombings were the just retribution for starting the war.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending OH transcription
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
fear
home front
perception of bombing war
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/423/7650/AFiorotP180719.1.mp3
8e9001dbbd1a2e77b0d73becd348c95c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fiorot, Piero
Piero Fiorot
P Fiorot
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fiorot, P
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Piero Fiorot who recollects his wartime experiences in Sacile.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Piero Fiorot
Description
An account of the resource
Piero Fiorot reminisces about his pre-war life in Sacile: schooling, fascist paramilitary training and indoctrination, curfews, rationing, and doing business in a tightly controlled, closed economic system. Contrasts the relatively tranquil life during the first stage of the war with the chaos following the fall of the Fascist regime and the brutality of the subsequent German occupation. Recounts wartime anecdotes such as dropping of propaganda flyers, clandestine listening of British broadcasts, evacuee’s life, German mop ups and killings, anti-aircraft fire, and damage caused by jettisoned bombs. Describes the tense atmosphere inside a shelter with people weeping and praying, and contrasts it with his care-free attitude. Stresses the strategic importance of the city, owing to its railway station and the nearby railway bridges. Describes the 1944 Sacile bombings and provides details on the 5 November 1944 attack in which a bomb nearly hit the private shelter of the Balliana family and many children lost their lives. Reminisces about the funeral and the sight of his schoolmates in white coffins. Speaks critically of the Resistance accused to provoke avoidable reprisal and mentions some victims of German brutality such as Raimondo Lacchin and Marco Meneghini. Describes Pippo dropping supplies and small antipersonnel mines, stressing how children were easily maimed until they were told not to pick them up. Mentions his friendly relationship with Heinrich and Peter Paul, two Luftwaffe pilots based at the nearby Aviano airfield who supported him in many circumstances; describes a fortuitous reunion with the latter. Provides details on the early post-war years and elaborates on the legitimacy of bombing. Recounts how British forces were generally hated and stresses the difficulty to reconcile the bombings with the idea of being liberated.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Sacile
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-18
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1944-11-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending OH transcription
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFiorotP180719
bombing
childhood in wartime
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/438/7769/PToccacieliG1701.1.jpg
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b6c7a5b2341b0666d2685dd1cd5e607b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toccacieli, Guido
Guido Toccacieli
G Toccacieli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Guido Toccacieli who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toccacieli, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare il signor Giulio Toccaceri per l’International Bomber Commande Centre Digital Archive. Siamo a Milano, il giorno 10 dicembre 2012. Grazie signor Guido per aver acconsentito a questa intervista. Come prima domanda,
GT: Dica.
AP: Vorrei chiederle, qual’è il ricordo più antico?
GT: Più antico?
AP: Potrebbe essere qualcosa, un ricordo famigliare. Chi erano i suoi genitori? I suoi fratelli? Dove viveva prima della guerra?
GT: Ah. Vabbè, io sono nato a Bergamo perché mio padre in quel tempo lavorava a un campo d’aviazione di Ponte San Pietro che era il campo della Caproni. Lui era specialista in altimetri e volava con gli Sva, [laughs] ancora, era aerei di molto prima della seconda guerra mondiale, della prima guerra mondiale. Erano gli aerei della prima guerra mondiale. Quindi io sono, fino allora sono stato a Bergamo, fino all’età di cinque anni e qualcosa. Poi arrivato a Milano a sei anni, quindi era il 1935. Io dal ’35 sono, abito a Milano. E fino al trenta, dunque la mia vita cos’è stata? Ragazzino che andavo a scuola fino al fatidico 1940 quando è scoppiata la guerra. Dunque avevo undici anni esatti e facevo la quinta elementare.
AP: Che cosa ricorda di quel giorno?
GT: Della mia vita scolastica?
AP: No, di quando è stata dichiarata la guerra.
GT: Ah, ehm,
AP: Si ricorda dov’era?
GT: Anche sì, ero a Milano, esattamente in Via Ingegnoli che è una zona di, ora dicono Città Studi, era allora una zona vicino a Lambrate, alla stazione di Lambrate e lì è cominciata la, diciamo la vita da, in guerra. Il problema della guerra in quella zona era quello che inizialmente, dunque noi abbiamo subito il primo bombardamento, se a lei questo può interessare, nel ’42. Il primo bombardamento nel ’42, dove, se posso aggiungere, poi [laughs]. La mia nuova moglie che, nuova moglie, moglie da sempre, abitava in una località vicino a me a Piazza Bacone e perse la casa anche lei ma questo io l’ho saputo dopo [laughs] quando ho conosciuto lei da fidanzata. Comunque hanno cominciato lì, il primo bombardamento nel 1942. Ma non penso che fossero, non so se, potevano essere francesi o inglesi in quel momento che c’hanno bombardato, questo non me lo ricordo nel ’42. Se erano già, erano già inglesi che sono arrivati, penso che siano, sì, sì, dovevano essere inglesi e quindi lì abbiamo cominciato ad avere dei morti, no? Nella zona di Milano, nella zona che avevano bombardato, anche perché la nostra zona era particolare. Aveva vicino uno scalo ferroviario, quindi alcune fabbriche abbastanza importanti tra queste l’Innocenti che produceva poi armi per la guerra. E quindi da lì abbiamo incominciato a soffrire e fare la vita di quelli che tutti i momenti, in caso di allarme, si finiva nei rifugi [laughs] che organizzavano naturalmente nelle case allora, erano ponteggi nelle cantine proprio per evitare che questi crolli venissero a discapito nostro, ecco. E questo era la, quello che io conosco, il momento della guerra, dello scoppio della guerra adesso, quindi avevo undici anni però eh, quando è scoppiata la guerra quindi. Quello, il nostro problema maggiore era quello e poi è cominciato il problema, vabbè, della alimentazione, mancanza di cose è stato quello che, è stato il mio inizio, la mia, diciamo, la prima giovinezza diciamo, undici anni, un adolescente che si è trovato così però personalmente non tanto. In seguito poi naturalmente cos’è stato le cose meno, i familiari meno importanti, cioè più complicate furono che mio fratello dovette andare militare. E da quel momento, vabbè era una cosa, non ha fatto la, non è andato in guerra, mio fratello è del 1921 quindi nel ’40 aveva diciannove anni, è andato a fare il servizio militare fino. Dunque nel ’40 quando è successo che il primo armistizio che c’è stato? Nel ’42 mi pare, no, ’44, ‘44. ’43, ecco nel ’43. Sì, nel ’43, dunque, avvenne che mio fratello tornò a casa. Tornato a casa e c’è stato pochissimo tempo perché e lì è cominciata subito la Repubblica Sociale Italiana. Mussolini che era stato poi catturato e liberato da Skorzeny, il famoso tedesco che nel Nido d’Aquila sulla, dov’era? Sul Gran Sasso, ha presente che fosse sul Gran Sasso allora. E da quello è incominciato il problema diciamo del fratello che è scappato, si è richiuso in casa ed era considerato renitente allora. Perché poi la Repubblica Sociale richiamò tutti i militari che avevano lasciato. E un bel giorno, tornando da scuola, ero giovanissimo, facevo le medie allora, tornando da scuola trovai la casa circondata dalle cosidette Brigate Nere che erano state create dal fascismo proprio che era, chiamiamola la polizia politica dei, del momento del regime fascista. Riuscirono a scoprirlo perché c’era stata una, come si dice, una spiata ecco. L’avevano saputo. Io sono arrivato a casa, ho trovato tutta questa cosa, mi hanno fermato ehm, e ho visto mio fratello prendere, caricare su una camionetta e portarlo via. S’immagina il dramma in quel momento nella casa. Quindi siamo arrivati al ’44, ’43. Poi mio fratello fu mandato, ricordo benissimo il tempo di guerra, fu mandato a Carcare. Carcare, Savona, sui colli di Cadibona, sì. Fino a un bel momento quello che era successo fino allora, bombardamenti non ne avevamo poi tanti avuti ehm, fino al ’43. E nel ’43, esatto, cominciarono i bombardamenti, quelli pesanti a Milano fatti dagli americani, penso, o forse dalle forze alleate. E lì subimmo dei bombardamenti molto pesanti. Agosto del ’43 è stato un macello, 15 agosto, 16 agosto a Milano è stato un disastro. Milano è sparita in parte, il centro di Milano in qualche via che non esiste ancora più adesso perché [unclear], è scomparsa e da allora, ecco cosa è successo. Da allora mio fratello riuscì a scappare lo stesso da Carcare e fu nascosto dai miei zii in questo periodo e lì andò bene perché poi non successe più niente. Mentre noi eravamo sfollati in un paesino vicino a Milano in una scuola elementare ed eravamo io, mio, mia sorella, sì, mio padre, mia madre. Mio padre faceva avanti indietro perché lavorava ancora a Milano papà e quindi siamo rimasti là fino a che la guerra è terminata. Ecco, altri episodi che diciamo riguardino me personalmente non ne ho, non ho subito cose. L’unica cosa che posso raccontare è stato bruttissima. Finita la guerra sono arrivati gli americani a Milano e io poi, come tutte le altre persone, siamo andati a vedere quella brutta faccenda di Mussolini impiccato, cioè impiccato, era già ucciso in Piazzale Loreto.
AP: Continui.
GT: Dunque, quella è stata una cosa che ci ha colpito non tanto per, ragazzo cosa avevo, ormai avevo quindici, dunque, ’45, sai [unclear] gli americani a liberarci, ecco quello è stata la causa più, a liberarci, sì, ormai avevano liberato tutta l’Italia, i tedeschi erano scappati. Ah, le cose, il brutto che succedeva allora erano le retate che facevano le Brigate Nere, questi della X Mas mi ricordo che c’era il famoso Osvaldo Valenti che era un attore, allora era molto in voga, e coso. Poi, Ah, ho assistito a, dopo la liberazione, a diverse fucilazioni di cosidetti fascisti di allora, io non potevo conoscere tutte queste cose, ero un po’ fuori dal, di questi fascisti che avevano, non so, li avevano fucilati proprio in mezzo alla strada così cioè. Ragazze rapate, pitturate di rosso sulla testa che camminavano in mezzo a discredito di tutti [laughs] che, ecco, queste cose che la guerra mi ha lasciato dentro. I bombardamenti sì, è la cosa più paurosa anche perché un, devo dire un ragazzo non è che si spaventasse per questo. No, questo no, non ho subito terrore per i bombardamenti, no, non ho provato paura. Ecco questo è quanto posso dire del mio periodo diciamo dal ’40 al ’45, quando è stata la liberazione, insomma.
AP: Mi ha parlato prima di un rifugio.
GT: Sì.
AP: Vuole descrivermelo?
GT: Ah.
AP: Come era fatto?
GT: Il rifugio dove, di casa mia?
AP: Esatto.
GT: Cantina. Cantina, paletti di supporto di legno, basta. Tutto lì. Non c’erano cose particolari. Niente assolutamente. Si andava in cantina sperando che reggesse [laughs]. La casa non era grande d’accordo però e dentro, con le donne che magari pregavano [laughs] come in queste cose e i bombardamenti che arrivavano perché l’allarme arrivava molto spesso. Ah, poi nell’ultimo periodo, prima che finisse la cosa, arrivava un certo Pippo. Era chiamato un aereo che non so di che provenienza fosse, se inglese, francese, americano. Arrivava su Milano, sganciava una bomba e basta, e andava e questo è stato per un po’ di volte. Infatti lo chiamavamo Pippo. ‘Arriva Pippo, arriva Pippo’. Ecco [laughs] questo è un ricordo di quella, del bombardamento.
AP: Si ricorda come la gente viveva
GT: Ah poi, il bombardamento, sì, d’accordo posso aggiungere adesso mano a mano che mi ricordo, l’ultimo quello terribile è stato fatto nella zona di Gorla dove è caduto su una scuola. Sono cadute le bombe su una scuola, hanno fatto molti molti morti per i bambini, questo tra i bambini di scuola proprio. Quelle sono state le cose che hanno colpito di più diciamo il fatto che si bombardasse un po’ così e non certo. Gorla è sempre vicino alla stazione centrale, si può immaginare che magari ci fossero però eravamo già verso la fine della guerra. Non so se è stato il colpo finale che volevano darci per, dare a noi, dare allo stato italiano, a Mussolini soprattutto perché allora eravamo isolati dall’Italia noi eh, siamo stati. I tedeschi avevano preso il potere anche su Milano quindi, c’è la guerra, si era formato il Vallo lì in Toscana, Lazio, cos’era, come si chiamava?
AP: La Linea Gotica?
GT: La Linea Gotica forse sì. No, non era la Linea Gotica, forse eh? Dunque, dunque, era la Linea Gotica, possibile. Montecassino, c’era la Gotica, sì, Gotica [laughs]. Gotica, sì.
AP: Questo mi dà l’opportunità di una domanda.
GT: Sì.
AP: Qual’era la vostra percezione? Lei ha parlato di essere, di sentirsi isolato. Avevate la sensazione che le bombe erano dirette a voi? Allo stato italiano? Ai tedeschi? Come vedevate la cosa allora?
GT: Beh, ma, dunque, no, no, [unclear] lo stato italiano senz’altro. Senz’altro. Eravamo alleati dei tedeschi quindi, sì, sì, vabbè. No, avevamo la sensazione che si creasse proprio il panico, proprio di creare qualcosa tra, che, non so, probabilmente che i civili si ribellassero magari a tutto questo stato di cose. Perché ci bombardavano? Perchè venivano a bombardare le popolazioni? Poi abbiamo saputo pian pianino di cose ancora peggiori perché se pensiamo poi cosa è successo a Dresda [laughs], capisci? Quindi era proprio creare questo stato di, forse di sollevazione contro la guerra, certo, non eravamo certo un alleato comodo nè forte per i tedeschi, e quindi presero in mano il potere loro. Insomma praticamente certamente bombardavano anche noi, ma forse per eliminare, più qualche cosa, togliere diciamo una forza, farci smettere per togliere una forza ai tedeschi.
AP: Vorrei riportarla a quegli anni.
GT: Sì.
AP: Sempre tenendo presente quello che mi ha raccontato adesso.
GT: Sì.
AP: Lei si ricorda conversazioni di adulti a proposito dell’essere bombardati eccetera? Che cosa diceva la gente, ad esempio, in negozio, per strada?
GT: [sighs] Praticamente, no, la gente cominciava ad essere un po’ stufa della guerra, cioè stufa della guerra, non si mangiava eh, questo era il problema, quindi. Ma per un certo momento intendiamoci all’inizio li abbiamo odiati questi bombardamenti perché ci bombardavano. Sì, siamo in guerra, d’accordo però. Quello che ritenevamo forse noi della guerra era farla direttamente sì, ma non, non inserendo le persone, le popolazioni civili in questo coso, forse non era il caso. E l’avevamo chiamato questa era la cosa del terrore, proprio creare un terrore in modo tale che qualcuno si, qualcuno che contava si risvegliasse, somma sai [unclear] è stato, forse è stato quello che poi è successo ma [unclear]. Per cui poi il regime fascista è caduto perché qualcuno si era mosso in quel senso lì o forse perché, forse non aveva visto l’interesse particolare di fare una guerra assieme alla Germania non so, [unclear]. Poi io, sai, io sono sempre vissuto in una famiglia che diciamo. Papà ha avuto sempre delle, delle idee socialiste e quindi eravamo un po’ contro questo, poi accettando tante cose perché devo dire noi siamo stati, all’inizio siamo stati anche abbastanza bene. Ai ragazzi non dispiaceva anche andare a fare le adunate, si divertivano, cioè questo era quello che aveva lasciato un pochettino il regime fascista sulla mentalità delle persone. C’erano, alcune cose insomma, c’erano, erano fatte bene insomma perché difendevano i lavoratori, posto di lavoro, cioè tante cose che avevano, bè, questo era un po’, diciamo il fondo fascista di Mussolini, socialista di Mussolini che poi certamente non è, non è proliferato in quelle cose però è quello. Lo stato però, non eravamo con, all’inizio non eravamo proprio tanto convinti che fosse brutto, è scoppiata, sì la guerra è sempre brutta però, mah, poteva anche starci insomma ecco.
AP: E suo padre.
GT: Io non capivo proprio molto bene quella, non c’era quella comunicazione che c’è adesso, quindi era tutto. Dopo ci siamo accorti che era tutta propaganda quindi abbiamo subito un po’, continuato a subire quello che era, diciamo l’inseminazione data da vari anni di fascismo, dal 1922, e vabbè che non era mica tanto, ’29 sono nato io quindi [laughs].
AP: Suo padre come le ha spiegato la guerra, se gliel’ha spiegata?
GT: [sighs] Mio papà, dunque, la guerra lui non l’ha fatta. Lui era specializzato quindi la prima guerra mondiale papà non l’ha fatta, la ’15-’18 quindi. Lui come specialista ha sempre lavorato nelle aziende che fornivano materiale per la guerra. Quindi la guerra direttamente lui l’ha vissuta attraverso il lavoro che faceva, non è che. Ma all’inizio non, posso dirle che non è che fosse contrario, forse aveva, qualche cosa era rimasto di una educazione socialista quindi non era propenso, però neanche proprio completamente alieno devo dire, questo che un ricordo che possa avere io di papà.
AP: La cosa è cambiata quando sono cadute le prime bombe sui civili?
GT: Eh certo, eh certo, eh certo.
AP: Mi racconti questo passaggio.
GT: Eh, le bombe sui civili proprio hanno cambiato un po’ la mentalità delle persone insomma. Si sono proprio un po’ rivoltate dentro, no, in quello che si sentiva dire, ‘ma questi ci bombardano’. Sì, eh, un certo astio per forza, ci bombardavano loro, non potevamo avere però la colpa, la colpa di che cosa? Nostra che abbiamo fatto la guerra. Nostra che ci siamo, ci siamo messi in questa situazione, eh, questi erano i discorsi che facevano loro. Poi è stato anche poi il dramma che non eravamo, sapevamo di non essere, anche noi ragazzi, di non essere all’altezza. Prima di tutto perché ci si misurava con la capacità, diciamo, di fare la guerra dei tedeschi. Noi non l’avevamo questa capacità. Ehm, visto poi quello che era successo e che avevano riportato dei reduci dalla Grecia disastri, cose, l’organizzazione proprio italiana non fatta proprio, assolutamente una cosa così. E quindi, ma abbiamo cominciato a dire che avevamo sbagliato insomma noi italiani a fare la guerra, ad accettare questa, questa guerra così. La punizione, vabbè forse era troppo forte, i bombardarci e morire, eravamo in guerra, vabbè. Abbiamo detto: ‘E’ così, cosa vuoi, non potevano fare niente’. Dovevamo subire e abbiamo subito.
AP: Provi se, se non le dispiace, a ricordare questo senso di impotenza, l’idea di ricevere bombe dal cielo e non poter fare nulla. Provi a ricordare cosa provava quando era bambino.
GT: Eh, difficile. [pauses] Niente. Per me capitava come una, come una, qualche cosa, una disgrazia che doveva venire, qualche cosa. Un qualcosa che non me la, contro il quale non potevo fare niente dentro di me, non potevo fare niente, non potevo. Ma neanche, però neanche il desiderio di mettermi lì, da ragazzo, con un cannone a sparare agli aerei che scendevano, no, no, no. Però un po’ effettivamente bisogna dire una cosa, siccome questi bombardamenti all’inizio quegli inglesi noi li odiavamo un po’ questi inglesi, eh, pensavamo che fossero un pochettino. Non sapevamo cosa poi succedeva quindi questo poi, questo è un paragone che si, non si può fare perché dopo l’abbiamo visto e quindi dopo ci hanno aperto le cose. Non sapevamo cosa subivano gli inglesi, gli inglesi a Londra con le bombe che, Hitler mandava le V2. Eh, potevamo dire, però è una rivalsa contro quello che, ma non c’era, non c’era, non c’era una volontà politica che, aiutasse a pensare una cosa piuttosto che l’altra, eravamo un po’ allo sbando insomma, non eravamo vabbè, subivamo un po’ questo, del partito, queste cose che ti tenevano un pochettino proprio al di fuori di tutte queste cose. Odiavano questo, quello, bisogna odiarli, sì, famoso manifesto, il nemico ti ascolta [laughs], famoso manifesto, grandioso che faceva. Ridevamo perché dicevamo, la lana Churchill si ritira, dicevamo, la lana Churchill perché si ritira, taci il nemico ti ascolta, avevamo dentro tutte queste cose che venivano dalla preparazione che aveva fatto il partito fascista sul popolo italiano. Quindi abbiamo un po’ fatto fatica proprio a uscire fuori dalla cosa. La guerra all’inizio sì, vabbè c’è la guerra, è inevitabile, dicevano. A un ragazzo però, sapere cos’era la guerra, era stata un po’, era un po’ una cosa, non facile da, sì, da accettare sì forse, forse un gioco più grande di noi o forse volevamo partecipare [laughs], da ragazzi, sa, non è semplice, non eravamo adulti capaci di interpretare tutte queste cose che poi sono successe. Molto difficile.
AP: A proposito dell’interpretazione.
GT: Sì.
AP: Mi ha accennato ai bombardamenti dell’agosto 1943.
GT: ‘43, 15 e 16 agosto.
AP: Vuole raccontarmi qualche cosa di più?
GT: Vediamo.
AP: Provi a tornare a quegli anni, a quei mesi.
GT: ’43, sì fino allora non avevamo subito delle grandi cose a Milano, onestamente. Bombardamento che ci ricordavamo di più era quello di, era dell’inizio della guerra nel ’42. Ppi bombardamenti veri e propri non ne abbiamo avuti a raffica come sono venuti lì con questi enormi aerei che arrivavano a onde [makes a droning noise] e forse no. Sono stati i primi che hanno proprio creato proprio un panico assoluto nella gente che c’era. Proprio è stato, sono stati quelli del ’43. Milano ricorda solo, sì del ’43.
AP: Si ricorda le sue emozioni? Che cosa provava lei?
GT: Gliel’ho detto,
AP: Estate, estate del ’43.
GT: Non paura, chissà perché, personalmente come, non ho provato paura.
AP: Le altre persone attorno a lei, della sua famiglia?
GT: Certo, evidentemente, sì, certo. Vabbè, c’erano, [laughs], erano prese, erano preoccupate per i figli tant’è vero che c’è stata il famoso esodo da Milano, tutti cercavano di andarsene via. Ma sì, un paio di notti siamo andati a dormire nei prati perché bombardavano, sapevamo ehm. No paura non ne ho provato, paura vedendo gli altri che avevano paura, a me sembrava che avessero troppa paura. Però non ho provato nè paura nè, neanche senso di odio, sì, bombardavano e vabbè, è la guerra. Ecco, c’era una certa fatalità nel pensare quelle cose lì, una certa fatalità, infatti non ho riportato nessun trauma del fatto di aver fatto, il trauma che si poteva riportare. Ricordare la fame, ma sì, la ricordo ma non è neanche diciamo una causa di queste cose, non è neanche una cosa. Io personalmente non ho portato dei traumi per queste cose.
AP: Mi ha parlato di Gorla prima. Gorla.
GT: Gorla, sì, sì.
AP: La bomba sulla scuola.
GT: Questo ci ha fatto male, sì.
AP: Si ricorda qualcosa all’epoca? Come è stata annunciata?
GT: Niente, dunque, era stata annunciata che, niente, un bombardamento è avvenuto, hanno buttato giù, no, una solita cosa, hanno fatto un raid, no, come si chiama, aereo ha colpito Gorla. Presumo che dovessero colpire la stazione centrale, ecco, questo lo dico io .Abbiamo tutti pensato che la zona, essendo la stazione centrale un certo posto di smistamento per truppe cose, penso non sia stato un bombardamento però tipo, come si dice, come ho detto, annunciato prima tipo terroristico [emphasises] ecco, no, eravamo già un po’ più verso la fine di questo [unclear]. Io la ritengo, non so, un errore proprio grave di, o forse un ultimo rigurgito. Eh beh ma una bomba poteva capitare, poteva spostarsi di cinquecento metri. Non penso che fosse stato un obiettivo ecco, è caduta ma però Gorla come dico era stata la stazione centrale ecco [laughs] perciò c’era un obiettivo. Come le bombe che sono cadute nella mia zona l’obiettivo c’era, c’era lo smistamento di Lambrate quindi era un nodo ferroviario.
AP: Mi ha parlato prima della Innocenti.
GT: Sì, c’era la Innocenti lì eh. Quindi, lo smistamento, venivano fuori le armi dall’Innocenti e subito partivano con lo smistamento ferroviario.
AP: Quindi.
GT: Ecco, una cosa che non abbiamo, che ho dimenticato, ecco questo. Qualche, c’è stato un momento, adesso l’anno però eravamo già un po’ più avanti, dal 40, i mitragliamenti ai treni.
AP: Me ne parli.
GT: Ecco, questa è stata [unclear] quindi proprio c’era una perché i treni erano, in quel momento non c’erano, non treni militari, erano treni civili e questi caccia che arrivavano, non so se fossero americani, inglesi, non, mitragliavano i treni. Questo è stato proprio brutto perché queste cose le ho riviste magari in tanti film dove si vede che mitragliano proprio i treni e la gente scappa fuori. Questo è stata una cosa, ecco, quello lì. Ecco, c’erano questi contrasti che, non capivo quelle cose lì proprio per creare terrore soprattutto, eh, guardi, che hanno mitragliavano i treni. Non erano convogli militari quelli che ho conosciuto, quelli ho saputo io quindi.
AP: Se dovesse spiegarmi la differenza tra mitragliare un treno e bombardare, come la spiegherebbe?
GT: Dunque, la spiegazione che posso dare oggi. Bombardare, bombardare, mitragliare un treno dipende: è un obiettivo militare o mitragliare un treno così solo per mitragliare un treno, pensando che. Bombardare obiettivi militari o una città per fare terrore? Milano è stata bombardata per fare terrore. Non è stata bombardata per, perché c’erano cose particolari, non era. Differenza, vorrei capirla io, come viene, queste pattuglie che vanno su due caccia [unclear] che vanno lì, mitragliano un treno scoprendo che c’è, magari non sapendo che è un treno civile si bombarda, si mitraglia un treno. A Milano, nella zona intorno a Milano, ma che obiettivo è? Per me è per fare terrore, per far cessare, proprio per fare rimuovere la gente, ‘basta adesso, noi non ne possiamo più’, per me. Però strategicamente, non sono uno stratega.
AP: E Pippo come c’entra in tutto questo?
GT: Come?
AP: Pippo. Lei ha ricordato Pippo. L’aereo.
GT: Ah Pippo anche questo qui, che signi, ecco, il significato. Terrore. Può arrivare un bombardamento, crea panico, perché una bombettina non ha mai fatto, ma non credo che sia mai successo un morto per Pippo. Com’era? Come mai arriva questo aereo? Ma sempre per tenere in allarme, cioè, per provocare questa ansia nella gente che si muova, che faccia qualche cosa, che da dentro, si muova da dentro per far finire queste cose. Eh, solo quello, solo quello. Quella è una strategia che. Altro [unclear]
AP: A distanza di settant’anni, è cambiato la sua opinione verso chi la bombardava o chi la mitragliava? Lei pensa che ci sia una differenza tra quello che pensava da bambino e quello che pensa lei adesso?
GT: No, penso che sia stato proprio una cosa per creare proprio il terrore. Per creare terrore e far smettere la gente di, cioè provocare questa, dall’interno questa, questa rivolta, no, contro, contro chi dei nostri faceva la guerra, farla smettere, insomma, farla cessare, farla cessare.
AP: Lei mi ha accennato a sua moglie che ha perso la casa.
GT: Sì.
AP: Questa cosa vi ha unito in qualche maniera? Avete passato le stesse esperienze? Vi siete sentiti uniti? Ne avete parlato?
GT: No, no, no, in questo no perché, beh ma lì è stata un’altra tragedia, lei era una bambina, aveva nove anni, otto anni, nove anni. Hanno perso la casa perché è caduta a Milano in Piazza Bacone e la sua casa è crollata e lei si è salvata perché era in rifugio con i parenti [laughs], con e basta. Da lì è stata un po’ una tragedia per lei dopo, quello che ha subito lei ma era piccola.
AP: Si ricorda cosa era successo?
GT: Sì, dopo lei ha dovuto, eh, hanno perso tutto la casa, hanno dovuto andare presso dei parenti, insomma c’è stata tutta una concomitanza di cose negative per lei, per la sua infanzia voglio dire eccetera eccetera. Questo sì però è lei che, quello che poi ha provato lei io non lo so [laughs].
AP: Prima mi ha parlato di Mussolini e di altri a Piazzale Loreto.
GT: Sì.
AP: Vuole raccontarmi qualcosa di più?
GT: Beh, noi ci siamo trovati, dunque, a Piazzale Loreto perché ad un certo momento, è abbastanza vicino alla zona dove abito quindi [unclear] scesi in strada [unclear], siamo corsi tutti a Piazzale Loreto e abbiamo visto quello spettacolo abnorme, spettacolo orribile. Da ragazzo non l’ho subito però mi ha dato fastidio subito quindi Mussolini, Petacci, Bombacci, c’era un, beh, c’erano questi gerarchi fascisti che io adesso non ricordo mentalmente chi è che era appeso. La cosa più brutta che ho provato. Dunque poi a un certo momento è arrivato un camion, dopo le spiego perché è arrivato il camion, è arrivato un camion e hanno staccato, hanno incominciato a staccare. Quando sono arrivato io la Petacci era ancora con le gonne giù, cioè al contrario e quindi era praticamente nuda o seminuda. Dunque il camion. Su c’era un deposito di benzina, li avevano attaccati tutti sul deposito di benzina alla base di questo striscione di metallo che c’era su e hanno incominciato a tagliare la corda e li hanno calati a uno a uno. Quando sono arrivati a Mussolini, hanno tagliato la corda di netto, non li hanno presi, l’hanno, l’hanno fatto cadere sul camion apposta. E’ stato una roba, è stato una roba pazzesca, la gente che andava a sputare addosso, a calci, urlando cose inenarrabili, basta, dopo [unclear] questa era, una corrida, con tutti i matador [laughs]. Glielo dico visto adesso, con tutti i matador che sputavano, urlavano, imprecavano ancora contro un’ammasso lì poverino, una cosa, poverino dico perché in quel momento poteva fare, ma non mi ha fatto pena in quel momento. E’ stato troppo la ribellione [unclear] perché lì non è più una ribellione perché tu sei nero io sono rosso, tu sei verde, no, no, è una ribellione contro qualcuno che in fondo la guerra aveva fatto morire i figli, mariti eccetera e quindi una guerra che non, che forse l’italiano non ha sentito insomma, l’ha sentito attraverso la, esclusivamente la politica, la forza del fascismo nel fare propaganda, però questo da ragazzo io l’ho capito dopo eh. Il momento io ho vissuto delle cose basta poi il giudizio allora io non potevo darlo, guardavo e basta. Ora.
AP: Resti per favore
GT: Sì.
AP: Con le emozioni di quel momento
GT: Sì.
AP: A Piazzale Loreto.
GT: Sì.
AP: Si ricorda le grida? Si ricorda che cosa dicevano?
GT: Le devo ripetere?
AP: Se se la sente.
GT: Non credo che siano, ‘Porco! Sei un porco! Hann fatto bene! Bastardo!’ E cose del genere. Ne hanno dette di tutti i colori, adesso degli epiteti che non potevano [unclear]. ‘Ti sputo addosso, in faccia, hai fatto morire mio figlio!’ e tutte cose del genere. ‘Porco te e quella puttana della, della tua Petacci!’. [sighs] Poi un’altra cosa che mi ricordo, beh ma quello non [unclear], ho visto catturare Starace, no, che poi l’hann fucilato lì vicino. Dunque sì, in quel momento è sempre Piazzale Loreto, nella zona e a un certo momento proprio, sì, l’avevano catturato, era Achille Starace, segretario del Partito Fascista Italiano. Achille Starace a un certo momento, non so, lo avevano scoperto non so dove l’avessero preso, questo non lo so, lo portarono lì, lo fecero passare davanti a tutto questo spettacolo, lo portarono lì di fronte e [unclear] gli spararono, lo fucilarono lì, poco distante da dove era, il suo capo era appeso. Quello sì. [unclear] ma sono tutte cose che non si sono, diciamo, proprio susseguite in un modo così da una cosa all’altra, che poi ho visto anche lì come le ho detto prima ho visto uccidere dei, in Piazzale Aspromonte ho visto uccidere un certo, allora. Lo chiamavano Pasqualone, era il ras della zona del partito fascista di, di Lambrate, era proprio segretario del Partito Fascista lui, era un, omone, poi andava sempre con la pistola infilata per fare vedere, sempre camicia nera e lì l’ho visto fucilare anche lui poverino in Piazza Aspromonte, portato lì. E’ sempre brutto, è brutto, sono cose che, uno è difficile credere che sia o non sia, hann messo lì e [unclear] niente. Niente, sono cose che mi ricordo della guerra dal ’40 al ’45 poi sono arrivati gli americani. Ah, poi ho fatto un viaggio su un carro armato che arrivava da Via Padova. Arrivava da Via Padova che è una zona [laughs] est di Milano e a un certo momento mi, questi bei americani che salutavano [unclear], ero lì con diverse persone, un ragazzo, [unclear] un americano mi ha tirato su un carro armato, sono arrivato, avrò fatto trecento o quattrocento metri sul carro armato [laughs], ecco. Allora erano cose che poi non so, sì, in questo caso si ricordano perché giustamente come avete voi [unclear] elencato, si ricordano poco poco, è difficile proprio però perché [unclear] risalendo magari ce ne saranno state anche, non eclatanti no perché quelle me le ricordo di più. Insomma, la cattura di mio fratello è stata eclatante, l’uccisione di Mussolini eclatante nel senso della visione di un ragazzo. Quindici anni, salire su un carro armato americano ecco [laughs]
AP: Mi ha parlato di Osvaldo Valenti.
GT: Sì, Osvaldo Valenti, era della X Mas lui, sì, sì, sì. Ah beh sì, Osvaldo Valenti, quello lo conoscevamo come attore, no? Perché anzi, allora non c’era la televisione [laughs]. Lui e la Luisa Ferida che era la sua amante diciamo o sua moglie, non so cosa fosse. E c’era la famosa Villa Triste a San Siro e lì torturavano i partigiani però, ecco, quello sì, quello me lo ricordo. Poi c’erano le Brigate Nere in Via Rovello. Le Brigate Nere c’erano, sì. Ah, una volta, ecco, in tempo di guerra, verso l’ultimo periodo di guerra, mio fratello era tornato da militare e quando era poi scappato la seconda volta, tornato da militare, no, la prima volta, sì, no, la seconda volta perché poi è andato a fare il militare con i repubblichini e poi è scappato e ha portato a casa il fucile. Un giorno mio padre che se adesso fosse qui forse poverino, ha rischiato con noi, perché? Dunque, amico di un, in quel momento già c’erano i partigiani che aleggiavano ancora in città, no? Qualcuno che era dei partiti. Mio padre conosceva queste persone da vecchio povero socialista e un giorno mi dice: ‘Ma qui abbiamo un fucile in casa. Non preoccupatevi, lo diamo, do io, so io a chi darlo’. ‘E vabbè, ma come facciamo? Chi esce con un fucile?’. Di sera non si poteva, coprifuoco [laughs]. Allora ha inventato una cosa. Ha preso il tappeto che avevamo nella camera e ha messo dentro il fucile. Ha avvolto il tappeto e ha detto a mia sorella e a me di portarlo in un certo posto. Cosa che abbiamo fatto. Pensa il rischio che abbiamo corso due ragazzi con il tappeto con dentro un’arma di guerra, con i partigiani che c’erano in giro e i fascisti che cercavano queste cose. Quello me lo ricordo ma non l’ho mica digerita bene con mio padre che c’ha mandato a fare questo lavoro [laughs], per portare un’arma di guerra, fucile poi praticamente figuriamoci. Ecco questa è una cosa che mi sono ricordato di quelle cose lì poi. Periodo di partigiani non tanto perché, cioè sapevo che ce n’erano, che li prendevano, li catturavano e poi naturalmente li hanno fucilati diversi nella mia zona, li hanno fucilati al Campo Giuriati. E lì è stato una brutta cosa e abitavano lì, c’è ancora la targa adesso di questi partigiani insomma, fucilati al Campo Giuriati. Della guerra, del dopoguerra posso raccontare di più [laughs]. Allora incominciamo dalle bande.
AP: Si ricorda.
GT: Della nera.
AP: Si ricorda la sirena?
GT: La sirena, oh, mamma mia! [mimics the high-pitched prolonged sound of the alarm] eccola e poi quando era finite invece suonava [mimics a different alarm sound] continuava a suonare a lungo, questa suonava a [unclear] e l’altra invece dava un segnale di fine allarme. Perché c’era il preallarme, l’allarme e il fine allarme. Sì, questo sì e anche quello, quello era. Ah, bombardamenti, ‘arrivano, arrivano, arrivano!’, poi magari falso allarme. Che poi di contraerea a Milano non ce n’era, non sparavano neanche un colpo, qualcuno così poi, quindi, sì, le sirene, l’allarme, però dopo. Evidentemente ci siamo abituati anche a quello eh. L’allarme c’è però pazienza [laughs], speriamo che non bombardino qui ecco eh. Dopo un certo momento penso che tutti poi in guerra si rassegnino eh, come una cosa inevitabile ma ormai dopo è venuta, è la guerra, l’hanno fatta, ci hanno obbligato.
AP: E’ stato una bellissima intervista.
GT: Ma, non credo [laughs]
AP: Siamo molto contenti, io e i miei colleghi di aver fatto questa bellissima chiacchierata.
GT: La ringrazio.
AP: E’ stato un piacere parlare con lei. Se non ricorda nient’altro, non vuole aggiungere nient’altro, io concluderei.
GT: Cerco, cerco poi. Uno non è mai preparato a queste cose e poi, ma guardi che. No, non è perché ma uno magari soffre non vuole parlarne, no, no, no, gliel’ho detto, non ho. Non credo di aver subito degli shock perché ho subito la guerra da civile ho subito, da civile, da ragazzzo ho subito la guerra, non credo. Ho sofferto solo un po’ la fame, quello mi dava fastidio, non c’era niente da mangiare, a Milano poi assolutamente, i bollini, andare a prendere il pane con i bollini, con, quelle cose, razionato. E’ così dai [laughs].
AP: Va bene, signor Giulio.
GT: Ma io ringrazio lei.
AP: E’ stata una bellissima esperienza.
GT: Anche per me.
AP: E concludo.
GT: C’era una caserma. Quando io prima ho detto che arrivando a casa avevo visto la casa circondata dalle Brigate Nere e mio fratello fu portato, perché era renitente, era scappato nel ’43, mi pare, no? ’43 è venuto Badoglio.
AP: Sì.
GT: Quando venne Badoglio, ecco, e lo portarono nella caserma di Corso Italia. Corso Italia c’era la caserma dove mettevano dentro tutti quelli che avevano recuperato, scoperto che erano renitenti e li avevano portati lì. E lì li avevano fatto firmare poi l’adesione alla RSI. ‘O ti mandiamo in campo di concentramento in Germani o vieni’. E lui Firmò per la RSI perché e l’unica persona che ha potuto andarlo a visitare è stata mia sorella che è andata a visitare appunto mio fratello prima che lo arruolassero nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana e questo è stato uno dei, diciamo delle cose che mi ha colpito di più come ragazzo diciamo come ragazzo [unclear].
UI: Quanti anni aveva il suo parente?
GT: Eh?
UI: Quanti anni aveva sua sorella?
GT: Mia sorella è dunque del ’24, aveva cinque anni più di me. Quindi io avevo
UI: [unclear]
GT: Nel ’43. Aveva cinque anni più di me. Era, sì, sì, quello è. Quella è una cosa che non ti inventi adesso perché, no, no, non ho nominato la persona a chi abbiamo portato il fucile perché era partigiano [unclear]
AP: Va bene.
GT: No assolutamente, nomi diciamo di persone che
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Guido Toccacieli
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Toccaceri remembers his wartime experiences as a schoolboy in Milan: the day war broke out, food shortages, his father working at an airfield near Bergamo, train strafing, basements used as makeshift shelters, being evacuated outside Milan with his family, fascist militia round-ups, tortures at ‘Villa Triste’, and disposing his brother’s rifle wrapped in a carpet. Remembers the 1942 and 1943 bombings, describes the Gorla bombing and elaborates on his legitimacy. Gives a first-hand account of Mussolini’s corpse being desecrated at Piazzale Loreto and the capture of a prominent fascist leader. Tells of his brother, a draft-dodger, captured by fascist militiamen. Describes a summary of executions of fascists, and female collaborators head-shaven and paraded in shame at the end of the war. Mentions a sense of helplessness, resignation towards the regime, which changed after the bombing escalated, and describes the attacks as the just retribution for starting the war and siding with Hitler.
Creator
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Alessandro Pesaro
Date
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2017-12-10
Format
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00:50:49 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AToccacieliG171210
PToccacieliG1701
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1943-08
1944-10-20
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/439/7792/AVendraminL180717.1.mp3
1fac857c4ece118fe4b997062d1f9ca7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Vendramin, Lidia
Lidia Vendramin
L Vendramin
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Lidia Vendramin who recollects her wartime experiences in Sacile and surrounding areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2018-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Vendramin, L
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lidia Vendramin
Description
An account of the resource
Lidia Vendramin reminisces her childhood in Sacile including details on her primary schooling, family, and town life. Contrasts the public manifestations of joy the day the war was declared, with the shock and dismay of her parents, whose lives had been profoundly affected by the First World War. Describes the first bombings aimed at the railway lines and the subsequent, more severe attacks which targeted the whole town. Reminisces about her life as an evacuee at Nave and provides an account of night bombings on Aviano and Treviso, describing target indicators, flares, and the muffled noise of distant explosions. Stresses her sense of hopelessness, and the difficulty to make sense of meaningless violence and wanton destruction. Claims that parents tried everything to keep their children out of the horrors of war, and stressed how she had to piece together different bits of information to understand the events she had eye-witnessed. Mentions widespread solidarity among co-workers, who rushed to patch up a plant. Describes convoys packed with Jews and Italian prisoners of war en route to Germany and mentions various acts of kindness: women trying to pass food to the prisoners or collecting the notes they dropped on the railway tracks hoping to send news home; railwaymen sabotaging trains. Mentions some anecdotes connected about Pippo and the Resistance. Stressed how the droning sound of aircraft haunted her for years after the end of the war. Having been at the receiving end of the bombing war, it justifies her keen interest in the history of the second world war and human destructivity. Expresses sympathy for the victim of present day conflicts and elaborates on the present state of global politics and society.
Creator
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Alessandro Pesaro
Date
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2018-07-17
Format
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01:01:27 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AVendraminL180717
Coverage
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Civilian
Conforms To
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Pending OH transcription
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Sacile
Italy--Aviano
Italy--Treviso
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
Holocaust
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
prisoner of war
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/452/7941/APederielliM171212.2.mp3
e2651d9ab1831a92ac693f20ef9544b7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pederielli, Marco
Marco Pederielli
M Pederielli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marco Pederielli who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-12
Format
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pederielli, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare il dottor Marco Pederelli. Siamo a Milano, è il 12 dicembre 2017. Grazie dottor Pederelli per aver acconsentito a questa intervista.
MP: Pederielli.
AP: MI perdoni. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. Grazie per aver acconsentito a questa intervista. Mi parli per favore del suo ricordo più antico, dei fatti più remoti che riesce a ricordare. Potrebbe essere un ricordo legato alla sua famiglia, ai suoi genitori o alla sua prima casa.
MP: Beh, il ricordo più antico, sicuramente ricordo di quando mio padre ci portò a vivere di fianco all’aeroporto di Linate in una villa a Peschiera Borromeo. Perché mio padre era un ufficiale dell’aeronautica, tenente poi diventato capitano che aveva militato nell’aeronautica da quando aveva vent’anni e fece una ottima carriera essendo entrato come aviere. Per cui, quando io non ero ancora nato, siamo di origini emiliane, Cento, provincia di Ferrara, la patria del Guercino, del pittore Guercino e mio padre fece questa carriera molto buona e andò a seguire tutte le guerre, le guerre di conquista che fece l’Italia negli anni ’30 in sostanza. Dunque Abissinia, dunque Somalia, Eritrea, queste guerre dove lui era rispettivamente capitano, maggiore, sergente maggiore, piuttosto che maresciallo prima di diventare ufficiale. Io non ero ancora nato perché sono nato nel 1938. Questo è molto importante perché 1938 è l’anno in sostanza della dichiarazione di guerra dell’Italia agli stati, agli alleati in sostanza, no? E, e allora in quel momento lì effettivamente mio padre venne mandato prima a Padova poi, no prima addirittura a Palermo quando ancora non, non aveva, non era stata invasa la Sicilia dagli americani insomma per cui stemmo a Palermo, poi a Bologna, poi a Padova e alla fine proprio nel diciamo, nel 1941-42 appunto ci trasferimmo a Peschiera Borromeo, vicino all’aeroporto, all’aeroporto Forlanini, all’aeroporto di Linate. E mio padre dunque comandava questo gruppo che faceva, che comandava tutto l’aereoporto e aveva trenta, quaranta avieri che lavoravano per lui all’aeroporto eccetera. E io ero così piccolo da, addirittura mi ero, mi avevano fatto una divisa, una piccola divisa da aviere e allora il mio primo ricordo è una volta che io, arrivò mio papà, vestito da ufficiale e io cantavo una canzonaccia dei soldati. Allora lui mi fermò e mi disse: ‘Marco, non hai salutato il tuo comandante. Ricordati che tu, che io, prima di essere tuo papà, sono il tuo comandante’. Allora io mi misi a piangere disperatamente, corsi da mia mamma perché appunto avevo ricevuto il primo, la prima, il primo, diciamo sgridata da mio papà, in sostanza, ecco. Questo è il ricordo più vecchio che ho della guerra. Poi arrivò il, sostanzialmente l’8 settembre, no? L’8 settembre come tutti sanno ci fu la, il voltabandiera dell’Italia in sostanza, no? Per cui tutta la parte sud dell’Italia era già stata invasa dagli americani, c’era, c’era sostanzialmente l’ordine che diede Badoglio, personaggio disastroso per, addirittura avevano, gli inglesi e gli americani avevano coniato un termine: ‘to badogliate’. Non se lei lo sa, ‘to badogliate’ vuol dire tradire in sostanza per cui anche i nostri nemici, cioè gli anglo-americani non capivano come fosse possibile avendo una, avendo degli alleati tedeschi chiudere così, senza nessun accordo, col re che è scappato come lei sa in, a Brindisi e con tutto, con tutto il disfacimento totale dell’esercito italiano per quello che poteva valere, perché per un po’ di tempo sembrava che l’Italia avesse una, addirittura Churchill era abbastanza amico di Mussolini, aveva cercato disperatamente di evitare che entrasse in guerra, mi pare, qualche cosa di questo genere almeno. Per cui a quel punto lì quando arrivò l’8 settembre del 1943, 8 settembre ’43, noi dovemmo lasciare la villa di fianco al. Mio padre, diciamo che non scappò ma non volle più continuare in questa situazione perché i tedeschi da una parte gli dicevano: ‘Ma, se non vieni con noi, se non ti iscrivi alla Repubblica Sociale Italiana, noi ti portiamo in Germania, caro Pederielli’. Erano amici e io mi ricordo anche di pranzi dove sono andato a cena con gli ufficiali tedeschi, ero un bambino piccolissimo, vagamente mi ricordo. E così sostanzialmente ci trasferimmo in una cascina dove c’erano anche i topi sulle, che era vicino all’aereoporto e i tedeschi sapevano dove era mio papà e ogni settimana gli dicevano: ‘Allora, vieni o no?’. E finalmente mio padre disse: ‘Va bene, d’accordo, sono anch’io nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana ma tanto aereoplani non ce ne sono più in sostanza. Non c’era più niente, lui non, l’Italia era completamente, negli anni, alla fine del ’43 l’Italia, anche le fabbriche del Nord Italia erano praticamente quasi finite insomma non. E continuavano i bombardamenti, bombardamenti degli alleati e sappiamo il famoso estate del ’43 dove Milano fu praticamente distrutta. Si salvò fortunosamente il meraviglioso Duomo di Milano ma tutto il centro di Milano che adesso è una delle cose più belle che si possano vedere, a Milano, in Italia sicuramente Milano è diventata la città più affascinante, più perfetta che esista, tutto funziona, a differenza di Roma, tutto è perfetto, la moda, l’alimentazione, sono, è una città strepitosa ormai Milano. E ecco e per cui praticamente questa situazione noi andammo. Dopo un po’, essendo mio padre entrato come ufficiale nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana, lui non voleva nessuna carica perché era troppo brutto il discorso di dire: ‘Ma tu stai dalla parte del giusto o dalla parte del sbagliato?’. Lui credeva di essere dalla parte del giusto perché aveva giurato per il re, aveva giurato per tutto, aveva fatto una carriera di vent’anni entrando a diciotto anni eccetera e invece quelli che venivano dal sud, per caso incontrava perché si poteva ancora passare la Linea Gotica così, gli dicevano: ‘Ah, ma tu sei dalla parte sbagliata’. Certo, loro erano dalla parte giusta perché erano, c’erano gli americani ma non perché loro avessero delle cose. Per cui sostanzialmente mio papà aveva abbandonato l’attività e si era dato all’insegnamento delle marconiste, quelle che dovevano, e aveva una sede dove c’è adesso la Malpensa, mi pare. E lui faceva questo lavorino insomma, andava in bicicletta a fare questa cosa con, questo glielo racconto perché poi le da anche un episodio, c’è un altro episodio, un altro piccolo episodio un po’ particolare. Sostanzialmente mio papà scelse di andare a vivere in una villetta a Gorla, che è una piccolissima, era una piccola frazione di Milano, che è su Viale Monza, sulla via che porta a Sesto San Giovanni, molto vicina alle fabbriche di Sesto San Giovanni che erano sostanzialmente tutte distrutte ormai, non. Diciamo che alla fine del ’43 la Pirelli, la Breda, la Fiat, la Isotta Fraschini erano ormai distrutte, non facevano più niente sostanzialmente, anche i tedeschi. Poi c’erano già i partigiani dentro alle fabbriche che facevano attentati o facevano delle, per cui non funzionava più niente in sostanza. Allora cosa successe? Che noi andammo a vivere in questa piccola villa e io avevo cinque anni, esattamente cinque anni ma sapevo già leggere, scrivere, tutto. Allora mia mamma mi disse: ‘Ma, peccato che cominci, che vai a scuola, che ti insegnano a fare le aste, vai e cerchiamo di farti fare l’esame, entra in prima quando tu avresti dovuto, quando tu avrai sei anni, in sostanza, andrai in seconda.’ E questa fu la mia prima fortuna perché io andai, quando avevo, sono nato in luglio, quando avevo sei anni e tre mesi, andai, mi iscrissi alla scuola di Gorla. Mio padre venne a vedere com’era, anche questo me lo ricordo benissimo, il rifugio della scuola di Gorla era una cantina, una cantina puntellata che quando papà la vide disse: ‘Ma qui cade una bomba, muoiono tutti.’ Però non c’era altro da fare. E così arrivò appunto il 1944, poi è l’anno cruciale perché è lì che si fece poi la fine della guerra sostanzialmente per noi è il 25 aprile del ’45 in sostanza, quando anche questa parte d’Italia viene presa dagli americani e dai partigiani che poi diventano numerosissimi perché tutti abbandonano il fascismo eccetera eccetera e non esiste più il fascismo ma il 25 aprile fu la data del 1945, no? E allora, in pratica, passo a parlare di cosa successe quel giorno. Allora, quel giorno successe che questo piccolo bambino che non conosceva ancora i suoi compagni perché non avevo fatto la prima per cui dopo cinque, sei, sette giorni di scuola non conoscevo i miei compagni di classe, non li conoscevo ancora. E andai in questa scuola che era appunto circa cinquecento metri da casa mia, da questa casa che avevamo affittato. Allora successe che i, andai a scuola regolarmente, accompagnato da mia mamma e verso le undici arrivò un’allarme, il piccolo allarme si diceva così quando era un piccolo allarme. Allora tutti i bambini vennero messi in fila per scendere nel rifugio e anche noi che eravamo in prima, che eravamo in seconda, le prime, le seconde, scendevamo per primi perché poi gli ultimi invece erano gli ultimi, anche la quarta e la quinta classe che erano i più grandi, magari qualcuno si è salvato, successo così. Però cosa successe? Che io scesi le scale, scesi le scale e quando fui davanti alla porta d’uscita, quando fui davanti alla porta d’uscita mi ricordai che mia mamma in un giorno bellissimo mi aveva dato un cappotto, un piccolo cappottino. Allora lasciai la mia classe, risalii le scale che la mia classe era la secondo piano, presi con una certa fatica il cappottino e ridiscesi le scale. Erano le undici e quindici. Undici e quindici scoppiò il grande allarme per cui tutti andarono in rifugio. E il bidello non faceva uscire, prima non faceva uscire nessuno ma quando arrivai io aveva aperto la porta e basta ormai erano tutti in rifugio i bambini. Io vidi la porta aperta e corsi fuori. Corsi fuori in questa strada, c’è una piccola strada con una cascina, era ancora molto, di fianco al fiume, il naviglio, che è un fiume che c’è, un piccolo fiumiciattolo e di corsa, io che non ero mai andato senza mia mamma, era sempre venuta a prendermi, l’ho, ho cominciato a correre verso casa che sapevo più o meno dov’era. Vidi chiaramente gli aerei e sentii dei rumori spaventosi, cominciavano a buttare le bombe, vidi, vidi proprio fisicamente le bombe che cadevano. Fisicamente le bombe, e rumori spaventosi che mi sono rimasti nella testa. Vidi chiaramente, vidi le bombe che cadevano, una cosa incredibile. E di corsa, di corsa, non è vero che cadevano da duemila, tremila metri, cadevano, erano molto basse queste bomba insomma [unclear]. E allora di corsa arrivai, dopo duecento metri di corsa davanti alla chiesa, c’era una chiesa lì, c’è ancora una chiesa e per fortuna davanti alla chiesa c’era un negozio di un droghiere, di un, una drogheria, un piccolo supermarket si direbbe oggi e il padrone mi conosceva, m’ha preso e dice: ‘Ma dove vai? Vieni, vieni, andiamo in rifugio, ti porto in rifugio.’ E allora, mentre mi diceva così, scoppiò una bomba davanti alla chiesa, sul sagrato della chiesa ma io ero già dentro all’edificio e finì del, finì nella cantina insomma dove avevano attrezzato una, un rifugio, piccolo rifugio. Che non cadde, non cadde niente e semplicemente questa bomba fece uno spostamento d’aria tremendo per cui quelli che erano rimasti in strada morirono, furono schiacciati dalle, dalla. E io mi salvai e quando finirono, perché subito a questo punto alle 11.45 finì tutto insomma, no? Una polvere immensa aveva coperto tutto questo quartiere che era un quartiere un po’ popolare con delle case, anche delle case popolari eccetera, caduto dappertutto, Viale Monza era completamente. Tant’è vero che mio padre, allora io arrivai, io uscii e cominciai a correre verso casa perché l’allarme era finito. E vedevo delle bombe, anche delle buche enormi perché c’erano anche molti campi in questa zona. E finalmente vidi mia mamma che in un, veniva, attraversava un prato per venirmi a prendere e così io, io l’abbracciai e andammo verso il rifugio che avevamo a casa nostra, che era un bel rifugio ben attrezzato. E lì cominciammo ad avere sentore che qualcosa di spaventoso poteva essere successo perché quella zona non era stata, circa cinquecento metri non era caduta qualche bomba in un prato, in un prato ma non. E allora cominciammo a vedere, ‘Ma sei tu e gli altri? Dove sono gli altri bambini?’ ‘Ah no, ma io sono uscito prima, sono uscito da solo’. ‘Ma come? E mio figlio, mia figlia dov’è?’ ‘Eh, sarà ancora a scuola, sarà andata in rifugio’. Dunque momento di, tragico perché i bambini morti sono duecento per cui erano, ogni casa aveva come minimo due o tre morti, due o tre. E allora, però non si sapeva niente. E nel mentre mio papà che aveva, che aveva il suo ufficio più o meno da queste parti mi pare, non so, un ufficio qualsiasi per dove facevano, addestravano le marconiste non era più all’aereoporto ma era. Aveva visto questa nuvola di fumo così e allora in bicicletta è andato, è arrivato fino in Viale Monza e l’hanno fermato, hanno detto: ‘Ma dove va? Dove va?’ E dice: ‘Vado a casa perché’. ‘Ma lasci stare perché sono cadute tante di quelle bombe su Gorla e su Precotto che la strada, l’altra zona vicino a Sesto San Giovanni, che è tutto distrutto’. ‘E i bambini, i bambini?’ ‘I bambini non sappiamo ancora ma non’. Allora lui arrivò dove c’è la piazza dove era tutto silenzio e lui non si rese conto, tutto saltando da un, da una maceria all’altra, silenzio. Allora arrivò, dopo un poco, in bicicletta arrivò nel rifugio: ‘E Checco, Marco, dov’è?’ ‘Ah, è qua, è qua.’ ‘Ma e gli altri?’ ‘Ah non so, saranno ancora’. ‘Ma’, dice, ‘Io non credo che ci siano, saranno usciti prima’ perché c’era un silenzio meraviglioso dunque. Insomma dopo un poco cominciarono a dire: ‘Ma, no ma, i bambini sono sotto’. E allora lui si vestì così [unclear] e andarono anche lui a, andò anche a lui a cercare di aiutare a tirare fuori i bambini ma si resero conto che i bambini erano tutti morti praticamente. Perché la bomba, una bomba o due bombe, erano cadute esattamente nella tromba delle scale e avevano ucciso duecento, centonovanta bambini. Se ne erano salvati circa una ventina, che magari erano usciti prima, io l’unica persona che qualche volta vedo è un, qualche volta ho visto cercandolo, è un certo Francescatti che fu proprio travolto e si, un braccio, rimase col braccio sotto e si salvò per, per miracolo insomma, no? E anche un, ebbe anche un grosso problema agli occhi ma è ancora vivo e l’ho incontrato un giorno e ha fatto la sua vita normale eccetera eccetera. Per cui sostanzialmente questo è stato l’episodio clou del bombardamento. Poi queste cose sono vere nel senso che erano trentasei aerei americani che erano partiti da Foggia, dal sud, erano venuti su, avevano bombardato e poi. Le voci sono strane. Io ho letto da qualche parte che temevano di non avere più carburante per ritornare per cui quando sono arrivati qua, dopo poco hanno visto che non avevano più carburante e hanno buttato giù tutto dove capitava eccetera eccetera. Questa è la cosa più probabile. Ma anche qui c’è una frase di questo genere dove dice, ricevettero un ordine dal comando supremo di sganciare le bombe qualsiasi e questo falso nome di questo personaggio che non era lui perché, comunque il nome è Stew [o Steward?], qualcosa del genere, del comandante in capo si stupisce molto, dice: ‘Ma perché buttiamo le bombe giù adesso?’ Ma è un ordine del comando generale e buonanotte. Comunque lui era americano infatti qua si vede che è un, è un americano che vive nel New Jersey e che scrive alla sua bambina, dicendo: ‘Ah, andiamo a fare la guerra’, no, era per liberarsi, eccetera eccetera, c’è questa giustificazione che poi sostanzialmente è un po’ quello che diceva lei prima in sostanza, no? Per cui lo facevano di malavoglia, anche loro sembra ma insomma poi dopo lo facevano insomma quello che. Comunque erano trentasei aerei, tra cui fortezze volanti e così, e basta insomma. E poi qui io ad un certo punto dico centotrentasei, in realtà erano trentasei. E aerei che sono partiti da lì dove c’è adesso tutta, in quel libro che le dicevo, addirittura c’erano i nomi, cognomi di tutti, ma era irrilevante quanti fossero, sono. Partivano da Foggia, da un posto tra l’altro molto vicino alla famosa zona del santo Padre Pio [laughs], dove c’è Padre Pio da Pietralcina insomma, dove avevano costruito un aereoporto dove bombardavano tutto eccetera eccetera. Ecco, questo è un po’ l’episodio proprio della guerra che poi ricordo io è questa qua in sostanza. Che dopo io mi sono sentito sempre un miracolato e, miracolato ha condizionato molto la mia vita perché per esempio io quando perdo qualcosa non ho mai, non mi interessa assolutamente perché grazie al fatto che avevo dimenticato, quando dimentico molte cose, pazienza, non gli do mai nessuna importanza perché dico, se l’ho perso vuol dire che forse era meglio perderla che averla insomma, [laughs] no? Per cui questo aspetto. E poi, beh, poi praticamente io non avevo amici lì perché i bambini erano tutti morti quelli della zona e per cui ho fatto il liceo, ho fatto la scuola media più in centro, ho fatto il liceo scientifico dove ormai la cosa. Ma in questi anni, e questo è importante dirlo, non, queste ricorrenze per i primi vent’anni sono state molto limitate. Hanno fatto un bellissimo, non so se l’ha visto, hanno fatto un bellissimo monumento, sono state le famiglie più rilevanti, che si conoscevano, che erano di Gorla, che hanno voluto questo monumento. Hanno portato tutti i bambini in questo ossario che è dentro la chiesa, questi duecento bambini con i loro nomi eccetera eccetera e con le maestre e così. Però non se ne è parlato quasi più per un bel po’ di tempo perché, sì, Milano sì, ma insomma mica tanto, forse solo quelli che avevano parenti, avevano bambini, avevano ma è stata una cosa, insomma un po’ analoga alle foibe diciamo la verità. Perché in fondo c’era il Piano Marshall, in fondo c’erano gli americani. Dirò un ultimo, per darle un’idea, no? Quando arrivarono gli americani a un certo punto, io avevo visto, io, quando stavo a Peschiera Borromeo vidi i tedeschi che se ne andavano. I tedeschi con i loro carri armati che andavano via perché insomma arrivavano poi gli americani, arrivavano, cominciavano i partigiani. Ma poi vidi ancora di più quando arrivarono gli americani su Viale Monza. Quando arrivarono gli americani che successe nell’anno, un anno dopo, no? Il 25 aprile, dunque dopo pochi mesi da questa strage, le madri che avevano perso i figli lì a farsi dare la cioccolata, a prendere sigarette, a tenere, applaudire gli americani. Questo è una cosa che mi colpì in modo impressionante perché insomma voglio dire, avevano perso i figli, avevano perso tutto quello che avevano, non avevano più la casa, non avevano più niente. Però poi gli americani furono bravi perché il Piano Marshall perché, aiutarono il paese a, per cui non si poteva dire che erano stati loro sostanzialmente. Magari si diceva più volentieri che erano stati gli inglesi perché magari gli inglesi erano più antipatici, gli inglesi erano più, sembravano più antipatici infatti. Infatti, questo antipatia per l’Inghilterra, che io non ho mai avuto per la verità, però diciamo che negli anni cinquanta, sessanta, cinquanta forse, sì, negli anni cinquanta, era un, era rimasto un po’ nella testa degli italiani insomma, l’Inghilterra era considerata qualche cosa di, così, non c’era grande simpatia per l’Inghilterra. Poi invece, quando cominciarono, cominciò, bisogna imparare le lingue eccetera eccetera, addirittura io diedi uno, ero il direttore del centro relazioni universitarie con l’estero della Bocconi, accompagnavo su eserciti di ragazze che si dovevano laureare in lingue e che avevano bisogno della ragazza, dell’au pair piuttosto che e allora divenni, divenni un grande, ero un anglofono veramente, conoscevo bene l’inglese, miei amici, anche adesso li vedo, abbiamo un’associazione dei longevi dell’Università Bocconi che sono persone eccezionalissime, allegrissime, lì c’è il, uno che creò proprio un’agenzia di viaggi dentro alla Bocconi per favorire e io accompagnavo le persone su le ragazze, organizzavo i corsi d’inglese all’estero per cui divenni molto amico dell’Inghilterra, andai un’infinità di volte in Inghilterra in treno e. Per cui è cambiato molto l’atteggiamento vero l’Inghilterra. E invece lì, in quel periodo lì era un po’, s’incolpavano abbastanza gli inglesi di questa cosa, era più facile perché Dio stramaledica gli inglesi questa, queste frasi fatte, queste cose qua ecco. Questo è un po’ come si viveva questa, questo dopoguerra, ecco. E poi vabbe, poi dopo a questo punto l’Italia fu uno dei paesi che riuscirono meglio a superare con, all’ONU, abbiamo i nostri personaggi come De Gasperi eccetera che andò là e disse: ‘Io, io non ho altro da chiedere che chiedere scusa al mondo’, eccetera eccetera con il suo cappotto rivoltato senza, era uno dei personaggi che insomma cominciò e così. Per cui questo è un po’ la storia dei rapporti. Io non, non lo so, anche episodi di, ne ho anch’io episodio veramente drammatico per esempio di mio padre che il 25 aprile proprio prima di, prima che prendessero Mussolini e lo impiccassero eccetera eccetera i partigiani naturalmente diventarono, tutti erano partigiani, tutti erano comunisti, tutti erano. E un bel, e lui veniva dalla Malpensa e fecero un posto di blocco qui a Niguarda, c’è l’ospedale Niguarda. E a un certo punto mio papà era in bicicletta, si fermò e c’era un signore della sua età e dice: ‘Ma lei cosa fa?’. Erano tutti lì fermi ad aspettare. E c’era mio papà che aveva un soprabito, e vestito con la divisa. E lui diceva: ‘Io sono un medico. Sto aspettando di andare al mio turno. Un medico qui all’ospedale di Niguarda, proprio qua a cento metri, a mezzo chilometro da qua’. E lui dice: ‘No, no’, dice, ‘io sono un ufficiale dell’aeronautica’. ‘Lei è un ufficiale della nautica?’. ‘Eh, sì’. Perché lui non aveva ancora capito che era finito, che ormai, che erano nelle mani dei partigiani, di quelli che si dicevano tali. ‘Ma vada subito a cambiarsi, a tirarsi via la, i gradi e la divisa lì che c’è una, c’ha magari anche una rivoltella?’ ‘Ma sì, la portiamo sempre’. ‘Ma vada lì che c’è un casottino, tiri via tutto, si metta lì che ne hanno appena ammazzati due ufficiali qua della Repubblica Sociale Italiana’. E mio padre che in fondo non era, non è mai stato fascista, addirittura era un casino per lui perché essendo un ufficiale avrebbe dovuto essere fascista ma lui era sempre riuscito a non avere la tessera perché proprio non. Mio padre all’idea di togliersi i gradi, buttare la divisa in una casottina eccetera e la sua carta d’identità, la sua cosa, lo colpì in un modo veramente grande e a quel punto disse: ‘No, io, basta, non voglio più essere un ufficiale dell’aereonautica, non voglio più’. Poi lo richiamarono e lo misero a Treviso e lì c’era il dopo, dopo qualche mese insomma no? Ma lui nel mentre aveva cominciato una piccola attività a fare le radio eccetera così e un giorno mi portò anche a Treviso e disse: ‘Dai, vieni che ti faccio fare un giro su questo Spitfire’. C’aveva, c’erano gli Spitfire che dice: ‘l’aereo migliore che abbiamo qua’, era un aereo inglese come lei ben sa, e io dissi: ‘No, guarda, io ho paura [laughs]’ e mi fa: ‘Ma come? No, dai!’. Però lui stette lì ancora due anni ma poi non gli piaceva più proprio. Non c’era l’atmosfera più e dette le dimissioni, gli dettero una buona uscita e lui cominciò una vita, una vita di meditazione, una vita strana, una vita. Lui, lui divenne, vabbè, divenne un commerciante perché così doveva mantenere la famiglia eccetera, vendeva vetri, cristalli, specchi ma soprattuto divenne un teosofo, uno studioso delle religioni, e fece anche un libro che io ho pubblicato, Al di là del velo, che è un libro di Teosophical Society, della Annie Besant, si iscrisse a questa cosa e divenne un sostenitore di questa cosa, non c’è religione al di sopra della verità, insomma così. Un movimento nato proprio in Inghilterra mi pare.
AP: Vorrei riportarla per un istante a.
MP: Mi scusi, forse ho fatto delle divagazioni ma poi ho intagliato tutto quello che abbiamo detto non è che [unclear]
AP: Non si preoccupi. Si ricorda Pippo? Mi parli di Pippo, se ha qualche ricordo.
MP: Beh, Pippo era un incubo per noi eh, perché era questo aereo che tutte le notti non ci faceva dormire per un certo periodo di tempo però perché era un aereo che veniva qui, questo dicevano che veniva dall’Inghilterra, non lo so se venisse dall’Inghilterra. Fatto sta che era un aereo che faceva due cose sostanzialmente: una molto brutta perché buttava giù delle cose, dei bengala che magari incendiavano le case; oppure buttava giù delle, delle caramelle piuttosto che delle cose che i bambini poi quando le prendevano in mano scoppiava, cose del genere. Questo lo faceva così come divertissement. Ma soprattutto buttava giù una bomba, mi sembra proprio una e la buttava dove capitava in sostanza. Per cui, adesso magari ne buttava giù anche due o tre, non so, però sostanzialmente ne buttava giù uno o due bombe. Che cadevano dove cadevano. Allora la gente era un po’ terrorizzata insomma, perché quando arriva Pippo non puoi dormire, non puoi andare, devi andare in rifugio, non devi andare in rifugio, devi fare. E io stesso, mi sembra vagamente una volta che andassi, fossi andato giù in rifugio e per un pelo, ero con mio papà non so come mai, per un pelo non mi beccai una cosa, una scheggia, una scheggia che andò a piantarsi, evidentemente era un bengala, questi, no, uno spezzone, uno spezzone ma insomma. Comunque insomma era una cosa che dava molto, che era fatta apposta per terrorizzare un po’ la gente, ecco. Generalmente la gente se ne fregava perché però avevano un po’ paura insomma perché, però era questo, no? Pippo era questo. Su Milano veniva Pippo, forse su Milano, su grandi città era, non lo so ma questo era quello che. Poi c’era Radio Londra che si sentiva, Radio Londra e poi c’era ma insomma, che non bisognava sentire, vietato sentire, cose così, c’erano tutte queste cose qui che io ricordo vagamente insomma, no. Queste sono un po’ le, i miei ricordi che non sono niente di eccezionale ma che però sono, sono vere [laughs].
AP: C’è un’ultima cosa che vorrei approfondire. Lei mi ha parlato della sua laurea.
MP: Sì.
AP: In un periodo in cui le persone che si laureavano erano una minoranza, come si lega questo fatto all’essere un sopravvissuto di quel bombardamento e lei come si rapporta con i suoi compagni di scuola che sono rimasti sotto quel bombardamento? C’è un legame tra le due cose?
MP: No, perché non, no, perché è cambiato tutta la vita, a un certo punto. Io ho continuato ad abitare a Gorla per un bel po’ di tempo, facendo il liceo, che lo facevo in Corso Buenos Aires, liceo scientifico. E lì eran tutti ragazzi che abitavano intorno a Loreto per cui non, non c’era nessun, non è che io avessi un marchio particolare che sei sopravvissuto a Gorla eccetera. Poi la cosa si, cioè come tutti non ne parlavano anch’io non ne parlavo, andavo abbastanza, il 20 ottobre andavo a queste cerimonie dove a un certo punto cominciavano a farla un po’ più regolarmente. I primi tempi non se ne parlava quasi, soltanto proprio queste famiglie di Gorla che si sono unite e hanno fatto, e hanno creato questo bel monumento, e hanno. Ma sono proprio quelli che erano più di Gorla, proprio che erano, proprio erano come un paese lì, e allora loro erano più vicini a questa cosa ma non. Io sono andato a vivere sostanzialmente come, sì, abitavo lì ma non c’era nessuno che non, e poi dopo quando sono andato via da Gorla, mi sono iscritto alla Bocconi perché cioè mio padre lavorava in un ufficio vicino alla Bocconi e allora abbiamo preso la casa là insomma ma non, non ho più neanche, non c’ho neanch’io, ci pensavo solo il 20 ottobre in sostanza, ecco, non.
AP: C’è un’ultima cosa. Lei mi ha parlato di un fatto molto interessante. Le stesse madri che prima piangevano i figli scomparsi, poi hanno accolto festosamente gli americani che distribuivano sigarette e cioccolata.
MP: Sì, questo è sicuro.
AP: Vuole riflettere un po’ su questo? Cosa?
MP: Beh, è molto strano, cioè i miei genitori non erano, loro hanno vissuto un po’ di più, ecco, forse il discorso è un po’ questo. I miei genitori, facendo parte, mio padre della, di coloro che avevano combattuto veramente insomma, no, con, dalla parte dei tedeschi, e in quest’alleanza che, dell’Asse insomma per cui non, non hanno, non volevano assolutamente festeggiare questo arrivo degli americani, in sostanza. In sostanza lo, l’hanno, lo festeggiavano più quelli che erano i comunisti, che erano i, quelli che sono diventati subito partigiani, che sono diventati, per cui siccome lì è una zona molto, molto rossa perché Viale Monza, Sesto San Giovanni eccetera. Per cui i miei erano più, più agnostici, capivano che insomma alla fine questi hanno buttato giù le bombe, poche balle, insomma, no, per cui. Invece la gente più povera, più, che era diventata subito tutta fascista, tutta, scusa, tutta comunista, praticamente quelli lì, effettivamente credevano l’arrivo di questi liberatori, liberatori, erano tutti liberatori, per cui tutti erano diventati liberatori. Erano diventati liberatori i russi, erano diventati liberatori tutti e allora effettivamente c’era questa, come hanno fatto un po’ in Francia, no, che hanno abbracciato quelli che sono arrivati anche se avevano fatto parte della Repubblica di Vichy insomma, no, però erano. E allora questa la ragione per cui, quando c’è stato questo arrivo di tutti questi carri armati che venivano dal sud e sono passati per Viale Monza, questi qui erano pieni di cose che davano, da mangiare, di caramelle, di chewing-gum, di calze da donna, di tutte queste cose nuove, di Coca-Cola, piuttosto che. Evidentemente è un mondo nuovo che si apriva allora, allora c’era questa volontà di, di. Invece sono altre persone che non hanno più bevuto la Coca-Cola, non hanno mangiato il chewing-gum, proprio quasi per rifiuto di entrare subito in questa, poi sono entrati tutti naturalmente ma, cioè non erano molto popolari in sostanza questi americani, ecco diciamo. Gli inglesi non lo erano per natura perché non, venivano considerati un po’. Ma anche mio padre stesso, che pure è un uomo aperto eccetera, lui non è mai stato a Londra per esempio. Io due o tre volte, io andavo a Londra come, l’altra volta, ‘dai andiamo, ti porto, vieni’, allora [unclear], siamo andati con lui in due o tre paesi a fare dei viaggi, a Parigi, anche in Egitto eccetera, ma Londra lui diceva, ma no, Londra. Cioè, c’era sempre qualcosa di minimamente ostile insomma verso l’inglese ma non so, forse perché lui essendo, avendo visto l’inglese come nemico forse non, anche in Africa quelle cose lì. Eppure mio padre per esempio, deve anche lui la sua vita a una combinazione perché ha portato una volta un maresciallo, un Graziani, cosa del genere, sul suo aereo a Gibuti a incontrare il comandante inglese della Somalia britannica, prestando il suo aereo, cioè andando con il suo aereo e il suo aereo è stato sostituito da un altro che è andato a Addis Abeba, è stato circondato dalle truppe abissine e sono morti tutti e lui si è salvato. Per quello ha preso anche una medaglia d’argento perché è andato a trovare questi qui che erano stati come anche è successo a Kimbu che gli italiani sono stati come circondati dai, per cui. Mio padro ha avuto tre medaglie d’argento, in quei tempi lì, insomma lui evidentemente era uno che c’aveva creduto insomma no per cui insomma. Non credeva nel fascismo come le ho detto ma aveva creduto in questo stato che sostanzialmente, insomma non dimentichiamo che l’Italia nel ’33 ha attraversato l’oceano Atlantico ed era diventata la nazione più potente dal punto di vista aereo con non so quanti, cinquanta idrovolanti, una cosa del genere. Ho visto l’altro giorno alla televisione un episodio dove su tutta New York tappezzata di bandiere italiane con Italo Balbo, capo di questa grande spedizione di centocinquanta aerei, mio padre doveva andare poi dopo non so come mai non è andato ma, che hanno attraversato l’Atlantico con gli idrovolanti insomma no. Per cui insomma essere stato un ufficiale, un aviatore dal ’20, mio padre era del ’09, diciamo dal ’22, ’23 al ’40, è stato una cosa insomma, e di aver fatto una carriera molto prestigiosa insomma, partendo da zero è stato, non è andato all’accademia mio papà ma per cui insomma questa cosa l’ha molto. Per cui non aveva molta simpatia per gli inglesi, diciamo così [laughs] ecco.
AP: Le viene in mente qualcos’altro? Vuole aggiungere qualcosa o possiamo concludere qui?
MP: Ma io, se lei, io, abbiamo fatto una chiacchierata proprio, eh, non so cosa può tirarne fuori lei ma secondo me quello che può tirarne fuori è. Perché questo libro qui effettivamente va bene perché è un libro che è stato fatto con grande amore insomma anche se non, anche se non riporta esattamente le cose però un po’ i disegni fatti, un po’ le poesie messe, un po’ così questa, queste illustrazioni. La prima stesura era stata una stesura un po’, molto, molto brutale, io ho detto a Eugenio: ‘Ma no, qua non va bene insomma, far vedere i morti eccetera eccetera’. Invece effettivamente così è una favola, una favola triste e ma diciamo che è quello che si vuole avere. Perché non è, non è memoria, non è storia ma è memoria, questo è importante avere memoria, [unclear] non è storia perché questo, la storia è quella che si fa scientificamente eccetera, questa è una memoria per cui. Qui, anche questo sono io [laughs] e poi. No, no, va bene. Ecco.
AP: Mi sembra eccellente. Concluderei qui.
MP: Sì, direi che va bene così.
AP: Grazie per questa intervista.
MP: Sì, forse una cosa che potrebbe essere più sottolineata è che le famiglie che hanno avuto le perdite più gravi che si sono, si sono unite in una, in una specie di associazione dove, con la quale hanno raccolto fondi nel dopoguerra con il marmo, per comprare il marmo, per comprare tutto quello, per comprare il grande scultore che ha fatto un’opera molto bella è questo è un atto molto importante. Il primo sindaco di Milano che si chiamava Greppi è stato quello che sostanzialmente ha, ha sostenuto questo fatto di erigere questo monumento e non vendere quell’area lì molto grande che molti hanno detto: ‘Ah, adesso facciamo l’area, facciamo dei palazzi eccetera’, loro hanno detto: ‘No, qui sono morte duecento bambini e in questo rione sono morti trecento persone nelle varie case eccetera, facciamo un monumento di ricordo’. Ecco, sono stati un po’ loro che hanno. Perché proprio come le dicevo, sono quelle cose che in un certo periodo storico non era politically correct parlarne troppo, diciamo così, ecco, questo un po’ la. Forse questo vale la pena ecco. Perché lei potrebbe al limite avere una copia di quel documento lì, di quel monumento lì. Lei ce l’ha?
AP: Sì.
MP: Ah, lei ce l’ha. Basta.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Marco Pederielli
Description
An account of the resource
Marco Pederielli describes his father’s career as a Regia Aeronautica officer, providing details of his service in North Africa. Describes his personal situation after the fall of the Fascist regime, when he reluctantly joined the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana as a Morse code instructor. Chronicles the 20 October 1944 Milan bombing describing aircraft approaching at a low altitude, bombs falling down on Gorla, and the subsequent widespread destruction. Explains how he left the school early and therefore did not go in the shelter where all his schoolmates perished. Mentions Pippo dropping small bombs at night which often maimed or killed children. Describes scenes of mothers who had their children killed during the bombings and cheering American personnel at the end of the war, gratefully accepting small gifts. Stresses the difference in perception between the Americans and British personnel, the former loved and hailed as saviours, and latter being generally disliked. Describes the difficult memorisation of the Gorla primary school bombing and how the monument was built in a period when the aerial warfare war was still a sensitive topic. Describes his father’s post-war career on Spitfires and his subsequent interest in theosophy. Elaborates on the legitimacy of bombing and reminisces how people of different political persuasions welcomed the Allies at the end of the war. Reflects on how being at the receiving end of the bombing has changed his outlook on life.
Creator
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Alessandro Pesaro
Date
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2017-12-12
Format
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00:50:52 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APederielliM171212
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1944-10-20
Coverage
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Civilian
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
memorial
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
perception of bombing war
Pippo
shelter
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1101/11560/ARoffeyRA180830.1.mp3
9782808fa9c0889463c3ada508d99d10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Roffey, Ronald Arthur
R Roffey
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ronald Roffey (b. 1930). He was evacuated and remembers the bombing.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Roffey, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AC: This is Andrew Cowley working on behalf of IBCC. I’m interviewing Ronald Roffey at his home in Chislehurst, Kent. We are the only people present. The date is the 30th of August 2018 and it’s five past two. So, Ronald, if I can call you that —
RR: Sure.
AC: If you’d like to start me off about your family life and go on to the bombing and then on to your cousin.
RR: Right. Ok. Well, my full name is Ronald Arthur Roffey. I was born in Charlton, South East London in, on the 2nd of May 1930. I went to school in Charlton, at Junior School. And I was nine when war was declared. Just before that I went to, I was in the infant school at Maryon Park School in Charlton which was my school, and remember vividly the amount of material that was being produced on the problems that were happening in Spain in the Spanish Civil War and as a child it was quite frightening to me to see vans with loudspeakers on and big posters with children and mothers running from being bombed in Spain. So that was my pre, that was how it all happened and then of course we came along. War was declared. I remember going to be fitted with my gas mask in Maryon Park School. My school. And then of course we had the situation with evacuation. I was an evacuee. I didn’t, I wasn’t evacuated with my school. My mother’s sister had already gone to, decided to leave London because of the threat of the bombing and she, she moved to, took temporary accommodation at Torquay in South Devon. And when the situation came about my mother asking her whether I should be evacuated my aunt found my mother and I a private billet in Barton just outside Torquay and we went there during what was known as the Phoney War when we were all expecting to be bombed immediately. And for the first three months of course nothing happened. So I was down in Torquay. I went to, I lived in Barton on the outskirts of Torquay and I went to Barton Hill Road School. And my mother left me there with this, with my new parents but I wasn’t there very long. I had that I wasn’t one of these evacuees that was gone for four and half years and came back. Because I was privately situated I seem to somehow come back to London on two occasions. The first occasion I came back to London on the 7th of September 1940 when London was blitzed quite badly. I travelled all the way from Torquay on the train on my own bearing in mind I was ten. My mother met me at the barrier at Paddington Station and we got the train down to Charlton and my first memories was getting out of Charlton Station and the sky, this was in the evening, the sky was red. It was just red. And when we walked, we lived on the Woolwich Road which ran parallel with the river very close to what is now known as Charlton Riverside and all of the north bank of the, of the Thames was alight and we could see them because we lived on the Woolwich Road. There was nothing between us and the river except the factories on the southern, southern side of the river and we could see the fire, and the fires burning and the whole night sky was red. So I was back. I was back in London. I went back to school in Maryon Park School in classes that had all ages. We went one week mornings, one week afternoons. And I got to the age of eleven and I was, it was decided that I would go to Woolwich Central School. Now, Woolwich Central School was located in Bloomfield Road, Plumstead so of course I had to get the bus from Charlton. The 53 bus from Charlton to school in Plumstead. And during that, during that time I was in London we had an Anderson shelter in the garden that my father put there at the beginning of the war. Dug the hole in the garden and he dug it very deep so he had a little corridor that went down. It wasn’t half in and half out. We had a little corridor that went down with steps and I used to stay in the shelter with my grandmother, my aunt and my mum. Dad was a firewatcher. He went out dealing with the, with the incendiaries etcetera that were falling, and we were, we were in London during those terrible days when we were getting in the shelter at five in the morning, sorry seven in the evening and getting up at five in the morning and we had bombs dropping all around us. Our nearest escape apart from having all the windows and doors blown out of the house. We had a, I lived four doors from a public house called the Horse and Groom on the corner of Charlton Lane and the nearest we had was an unexploded oil bomb that fell in the garden of the pub and our Anderson shelter was adjacent by knocking on the pub door. And I can remember vividly when the all clear went at five, 5 o’clock in the morning of coming out of the shelter, going into the house and sitting down at the table in our below level of the house and a shadow on the window. And it was a policeman with his helmet and he took all the whole window up. I just saw this face with a helmet and he said, ‘Sorry, but you’ve got to get out. You’ve got an unexploded bomb in the garden at the back of your — ’ So we all had to get out. My aunt, my grandmother had a sister that lived in Upper Charlton near Shooters Hill Road near the Charlton Lido. She had a flat there and we all picked up our bits and pieces and we all decamped to her flat there and again we took shelter in Anderson shelters that were dug into the grounds of these flats near Charlton Lido. From then on I, I generated to go, I started to go back to, to Torquay. My next memory is my, my aunt who was still there found me some accommodation at another house in Barton Hill Road. Not the same house as I was at. I was with the elderly couple who mum and I were with, but she found me a house and I went down on my own and I lived in a house that a lady took me in. Her name was Coward. Mr and Mrs Coward and she had three boys of her own and she took me and another lad in. So back to the same house. Back to the same school and I stayed there. I stayed at Barton Hill Road School until [pause] Well, I can’t remember the number of months, but I was due to leave school to go to another school in Babbacombe Downs which was the, was the local Central School. But I didn’t last that long because I was back in London again. I can’t, I can’t time it. It just, I was just back in London. And of course I came back for the flying bombs. The V-1s and the V-2s. I came back to Charlton, went to and of course started to go to Woolwich Central School in Bloomfield Road. Getting the bus. And we had instructions from the headmaster that we were not to travel during air raids, but of course that was impossible with flying bombs because you didn’t know when they were coming. So I get on the number 53 bus and by the time I’d got to Plumstead the warning had gone several times and invariably I always arrived at school during a, [laughs] during a warning but nevertheless we soldiered on. It was full time school there. We then moved on to the V-2s which were a little more lethal, and my experience there was one day we were, by the way it was full time. It wasn’t morning or afternoons. We were back to full time school by this time because we were getting towards the end of the war although we didn’t know that at the time and we were all in the playground and a rocket fell on the Lord Bloomfield which was a pub at the top of, on the estate at the top of the Bloomfield Road. It fell behind. And of course we didn’t know anything except it just went bang and all the glass in the school came out and we were in the yard playing. Fortunately none of us was hurt but we were all, there was glass everywhere. And that was my experience of World War Two. I finished school when I was seventeen. Still at Bloomfield Road.
AC: Did [coughs] did you have any thoughts when you were being bombed about who was doing it and what the British were doing in the way of bombing?
RR: No. Not really. I knew it was the Germans of course. And, but as far as the other things that were going on that never came in to, never came into my thoughts at all. I was more concerned in getting out the shelter, getting to school, coming home and just getting on with my own life. No. I never thought about what we were doing. Except that of course all the flak and the guns and God knows what but no.
AC: Ok. So, perhaps we can go on to your cousin Richard Stanley Bastick.
RR: Yes.
AC: What can you tell me about him.
RR: I was nine when war broke out. My, just very briefly before I do that my, my father was one of ten and it was a very loose family. Lots of families in those days were quite close but my father’s family was quite unclose if that’s the right expression. He kept in touch with some of his brothers and, but he didn’t keep in touch with all of them so not, I didn’t know many of them, but I did know Richard. Richard’s mum. Rose Lilian was the girl in the, my father’s family. My father was the youngest son so I think Rose because she was the only surviving daughter took, I suppose took my dad under her wing because he was her youngest brother and he kept in touch with her. I was nine, Richard was nine years older than me. So of course I never ever met him. I heard about him briefly when my dad got in touch with his sister and she said, ‘Oh, Dick’s gone off,’ Blah blah blah. And it was only what I heard from mum and dad talking at the table because I was just a kid. You know. And I thought oh Richard’s going into the forces. Full stop. So I never really met him. He came, he came within my orbit if you like much later. I, I went to, I was, I met my wife my present wife, my current wife when I was, left school at seventeen and went to work in London. And we married in 1953 and in the few years and I can’t remember exactly but in the few years before we got married we were engaged for three years. So I knew, Joan and I were going together when I was twenty. And it was during that time just before I was twenty and just after I was twenty that my father and mother took me to Richard’s mum Rose where she lived in Belford Grove, Woolwich. And it was on one of those visits that obviously after Dick had been presumed killed, missing and Auntie Rose as I knew her of course was terribly, terribly down. It had a very profound effect on Rose. He was her only child. Most of my father’s family had only children strangely enough and Dick was Auntie Rose’s only son. And his loss really had a profound effect on her. She turned to Ouija boards where we all sat around the table and we all put our fingers on the glass and it told, it told what wanted to ask us questions. That was my first and Joan’s first introduction to that sort of thing but it really was critical for her. And when we visited her and it wasn’t often but when we visited her she had this little picture of Dick on her mantlepiece and she always tried to show me the face of the child that was in his flying jacket. She could see a child’s face in his flying jacket. He was with his crew and in front of his aircraft and she could see this child’s face and it really, whether because he was her only son and I understand from what my mum told me that she’d had several miscarriages I think she’d had trouble having, having a child, and whether that that, all that difficulty registered with her and Dick was a lot closer maybe than a mum and son I don’t know but it really was, had a profound affect and she never shook it off. She and Gordon, her husband we visited her several times and I married in 1953 and I know Rose was, said to me would I, would I like to go and live, buy her house from her because she and Gordon were thinking of moving. And it wasn’t our cup of tea but we, we sat and talked about it and we decided no we didn’t. But she then, they then moved to Battle in Sussex, East Sussex and from there on in Joan and I used to visit her and Gordon at this little bungalow they had in Battle. And we visited them twice a year until Rose died in 1970 and then Gordon died some years later. But that was my connection. All I knew. So it was I never knew Dick, never met him but through his mum I got to know him quite well.
AC: Did she tell you anything about his time in Bomber Command?
RR: No. Not a thing. Except that he was in Bomber Command and that he was lost and his remains were not known. Nothing about Bomber Command at all.
AC: Right. But yet have you found out something about him? About what he did with Bomber Command.
RR: No. I’ve gone through the records. I’ve had, I’ve been in touch with the Air Ministry and so on and I got all his training and so on. Where he went and what he did and so on but only the official stuff. But no. As I say I never met him. I wish I had have done but because of the difference in our ages of course that never took place.
[recording paused]
AC: Right. Perhaps we can go back to when you were in the Nissen hut being bombed.
RR: Oh, when I was in the Anderson shelter.
AC: Sorry. In the Anderson shelter.
RR: Right. The Anderson shelter. Yes. We were in the Anderson shelter as I’ve mentioned. In at seven up at five. And then after a while my grandmother who was of course elderly became quite ill, and because of going out in the cold weather, going underground with an oil stove inside and the fumes of the oil stove and God knows what she became very ill. Doctor used to visit her and go down in to the Anderson shelter to treat her. But when we got her out it was decided that maybe we ought not take shelter below ground but to find somewhere else. My father worked in Siemens. In fact, the Roffey family had several hundred years of service with Siemens. Brothers, sisters, uncles, cousins. But my father worked in Siemens and Siemens had their own air raid shelters built in, just in the precincts of the factory and he arranged for us to go and shelter in these concrete shelters. Reinforced concrete shelters. So we walked along the Woolwich Road in to the works and went down there. And we spent several, several weeks if not longer sheltering in Siemens Brothers’ shelter. Moving on that, that stopped for some reason and I don’t know why but during the V-1 when the V-1s started there was some brick shelters built in Charlton Lane. From the Woolwich Road we lived on the almost on the corner of Charlton Lane, next door to the Horse and Groom which was on the corner. We lived three doors from there and opposite the Horse and Groom across Charlton Lane was Holy Trinity Church. So you had a church on one corner of Charlton Lane that butted on to the Woolwich Road and you had the pub on the other corner. And on the path and halfway in the road there were some brick shelters built. Surface shelters. And during the V-1 raids we used to travel from our three doors away across to the brick shelters next to the church and shelter in there. So [pause] and we, we sheltered in there through the V-1s and the V-2s.
AC: And do you have any memories of your emotions? What you were feeling while you were in the Anderson shelters?
RR: I never for one moment felt frightened. I was more, I was more concerned because my father was a fire watcher and he was doing all sorts of things putting out fires. I was more concerned about his safety then mine. But I never had, felt any emotions whatsoever. It was just something that we had to go to the shelter. The banging and the movement of I never for one moment felt afraid. It was strange but I didn’t.
AC: And how did you pass the time while you were in the shelter?
RR: I just can’t remember.
AC: Yeah.
RR: We used to go in there. Again, it was a community. Being a brick shelter we weren’t the only, it was built with bunks either side with a corridor down the middle and elsan toilets at the end and two bunks and all the families. So I presume, I can’t remember but as children we used to play. And later on in the war we used to, I was very friendly with a boy that lived in the pub. In the Horse and Groom. He was a little younger than me but we became quite friendly and I spent lots of time with him, but no I can’t really remember what we didn’t in the Anderson [laughs] in the brick shelters.
AC: What about in the Anderson shelter? What did you have in there?
RR: The Anderson shelter was it was two bunks either side. We had this oil stove. My father being a sheet metal worker had created, had built a flue with a cowl on the top through the soil so to let the fumes out and so on. So we had a, but then there were other heaters in there and it was covered with blankets. One thing I do remember, come to mind now that I really did get frightened was we went to the brick shelter in the evening but of course the flying bombs, the V-1s were coming over all day and of course I was at home all day. Mum and dad were doing their jobs. My dad was in Siemens, my mother was a shirt, worked at the shirt factory in Woolwich and I was at home with my grandmother and the warning went one day. The warning went and I got grandmother down in the Anderson shelter in the garden and I stood, because there was like a little, it was underground and it came up two steps and up on to the path in the garden and I stood by the door in the garden and I could hear this flying bomb coming and I looked up and it was coming across from Charlton Village. Now, I doubt you know the area. I’m on the Woolwich Road down the riverside. Charlton Village was up the hill and I could see this flying bomb coming towards me. Towards me. It wasn’t actually but that’s what it looked like and suddenly its engine stopped and it started to come down and it started to come down towards me coming down. And that really, I was really very, very frightened. And I was on the point of rushing down and getting in the shelter when I looked again and it turned around. In its fall it turned around and it flew back towards Charlton Village and it fell on the Bugle Horn, the public house in Charlton Village. And if that hadn’t have turned around I’m sure it would have come down but that was my only frightening moment.
AC: And what about damage around where you lived? Were you —
RR: There wasn’t. Apart from windows out, doors out and so on the main damage was because Siemens was a German factory and Lord Haw Haw always said, ‘Siemens, we know where you are.’ That was obviously a prime target for south, for the south of the river where we were. There were bombs. There were no bomb, bomb damage that I could, from the Woolwich Road along through the Woolwich Road but there were a few bombs dropped from the East Street, West Street and Manor Way that ran down towards the river adjacent to Siemens. But no actual, there were no, I couldn’t remember any actual bomb damage in the, in the locality.
AC: And what about any of your neighbours or friends? Have you got any memories of what they have told you, or anything you did together? Maybe with your friends.
RR: I was, it was during this time I was going, my, my grandmother I also, also lived in the house with my mum and dad and my grandmother. My grandmother had a, had another daughter living with us. My mum’s sister who was who was a spinster. And she, whilst my mother was working and dad was working my auntie, Auntie Lou used to take me to school and so on when I was young and so on. She, she used to attend the Holy Trinity Church two doors, two doors away. I, I was encouraged to go with her so I attended Holy Trinity Church. I joined the choir. A lot of the local boys were in the choir. We had an extremely good vicar, Father Hopkins who, he was also the local Scout Master and I was in the 29th Woolwich Scouts through the war at that time and also in the choir. I was confirmed. I think twelve was the age of confirmation. I was confirmed by the Bishop of Woolwich in a church on Plumstead Common. I forget the name but, and then I became a server there and we used to go to services during the Blitz and particularly on Sundays during the day the 11 o’clock Communion service. And if there was a warning we used to go in the crypt. We used to shelter in the crypt. And Father Hopkins was the Scout master and he used to, we used to go off and very, of course Holy Trinity Church is adjacent to Gilbert’s Pit. Now, Gilbert’s Pit was a sand pit that overlooked the Woolwich Road and it was used, it was, it was sand obviously and the sand that was used by the United Glass Bottles Factory in Anchor and Hope Lane. And they initially got all their sand from this because it was Thames sand I suppose. And there was this big open pit and it rose up, a big hole in the middle that lorries used to go in and out. But during the war we used to play on the, not the pit itself but on the outskirts of the pit that was adjacent to the church and we used to have our Scout’s, Scout meetings there and meet other troops and do all sorts of things in the side of this sandpit. That was again was something that took our time during the day. Just thought about that.
[recording paused]
AC: So there’s a couple of more bits you want to tell me about.
RR: Yes. It’s just occurred to me that I mentioned that my dad was a fire watcher. He, along with groups of other man helped the air raid wardens and the people that were the official officials as it were. And these men just went out and reported to the warden’s post and they were directed to either pop sandbags on incendiary bombs that had fallen or go and help out. But there was one particular occasion when an incendiary bomb fell on the church. The church had a short spire on it. The fire brigade attended and if you think of a church the church goes up in steps. So you have the building and then you have the two aisles at the side with the church with a roof and then you have another piece of walling that goes up towards the roof and then on top of the roof is the spire. So you’ve got several steps if you like. Very big steps of course to get up to the spire. The fire brigade came along and attempted to get up on this spire because the incendiary bomb was lodged in the spire and it was setting the spire alight. They ran out of ladders. We, I’ve told you about doors being blown off and windows being out. We rented. My mum rented this property and the owner sent, or the agent sent contractors along to repair our house and their ladders were left outside our house. So they came along to our house, number 594 and took the ladders that belonged to the contractor to supplement their ladders so that they could try and reach the spire. They got up to the, over the first sloping roof up to the wall where the windows of the church below the roof were and then they had to get again on to another slope. And the firemen said it was too dangerous. So the story went. So the story went, and of course the pubs always stayed open, licensing hours didn’t exist in those days. If the boys were out putting out fires well, if they wanted to go in for a pint or whatever they got it. Well, it so happened that my dad was with a couple of blokes and they were in the pub having a drink and they came in and they said the church is alight but the fire brigade said it was too dangerous. So they all had, these guys all had steel helmets, dad had a steel helmet. It was grey, I remember. And he said, ‘Guys, we could get up there all right.’ So my dad actually got up there, right on to the roof and put the fire out. And of course as he was going up he told me afterwards that as he was going up the roof of the church the slates on the roof were coming off and he put his head, his hat down and his steel helmet and they were hitting his steel helmet as he went up. But he did get up there and he put the fire out. That’s one thing I remember. What else? Anything else?
AC: Finding any —
RR: Prompting me brings me all sorts of memories.
AC: What about finding any bits of aircraft or ammunition or —
RR: Oh yeah. Yeah. That was, that was something that we did as boys. Peter, Peter Hills who was my friend who was the licensee’s son in the Horse and Groom and I and another chap Leslie Denton who also lived further along the Woolwich Road about five doors from the church. We all went. We were all choir boys in the church and we used to go out and go in to Maryon Wilson Park. And of course there after the, after the night of shells being fired up and so on there were lots of bits of shrapnel that were left in the park. In the grass between the trees and we used to go out and pick them up and see who had the biggest bit and so. They were a bit nasty. You could cut your fingers on them quite extensively. But yeah that was, that was a pastime particularly at that heavy stage when we were being bombed. Yeah. You’re right, it’s we used to Maryon, never used to go to Maryon Park which was a park that was opposite Maryon Park School on the main road and then ran through because, I don’t know if you know the area but you got Maryon Park, and then you got, you got up the road and you got to Maryon Wilson Park which then runs up to Charlton Village. Maryon Park during the war of course was very flat because it was down, down by the river. It had a lovely putting green that we used to play putting. Thruppence a go. And we got our putting stick from the park keeper and our score card. And we used to do that on Sunday afternoons. And later on in the war they built a shelter in the park. There were tennis courts there as well. Built a shelter in the park. But another thing that used to happen later on in the war when the raids were less frequent they had dances around the band stand. So they had a band in the band stand and everybody congregated. Came in to the park and they used to have their dances and so on. So that was another thing that has come to memory.
AC: So, you, you just want to tell me about the coincidence concerning your Rose’s birthday and your cousin’s.
RR: Yes. Rose was, Rose, Richard’s mum was born on the 20th of February 1890 and it’s curious that Dick was born on the 20th of February [pause] I can remember. 20th of February 1921. And he was lost on the 21st of February 1945. And it strikes me as being very coincidental that those, that that date of the 20th of February seemed ominous for that, for that family. Quite unusual. Just something that came to me when I was going through looking at Dick’s parents. Strange.
AC: Indeed. Well that’s, thank you very much for that. It’s painted a vivid picture and thank you for your memories.
RR: Good. Well, thank you.
[recording paused]
AC: Right. I think you wanted to tell me about your police box.
RR: Right. Yes. If I can just paint the picture of this police box and where it stood. On the corner of, on the corner of Charlton Lane and Woolwich Road there was this public house I’ve mentioned called the Horse and Groom. Next to the Horse and Groom travelling towards Greenwich there was, there was a sweet shop and there was a barber’s shop and then there were the, there were some houses and I was in the second house from the sweet shop so, from the barber’s shop. Jimmy [unclear] Barber’s Shop it was. He had two daughters. Anyway, going on from there the police, the police box was continually manned during this time and it was, this one was continually manned because we had a siren located next to it. So, the siren of course stood on this very tall cylindrical piece of metal that was, went way above the houses with the siren on the top. And because it was continually manned we usually had the same policeman. There were exceptions but, and that policeman was Mr Ashdown, and a very pleasant man and I can see him now. Round face, white moustache and he was very friendly. And outside, and to protect the police box from bomb blasts and so on and it had a blast wall outside the door. And I remember quite distinctly we got quite friendly with the policeman. All the locals did. He got cups of tea and all sorts. And he opened his door his day and showed me how the siren worked. And from memory it was like a box on the wall and it had three sections in colours. It had a red section, a white section in the middle and a green section on the other side. And he got a message. When he got a message that the warning was imminent he had to sound this siren. And he just pulled the, pushed the lever over to the left, into the red section and this siren went off. Now, we’ve all heard what sounds siren sound like from all the films we’ve heard and it’s a wail. But the volume when you’ve got a siren about six feet from the house and we’re two doors away was quite something because everything in the house shook with the sound, with the vibration. Windows and anything that was loose, bits on the table would jump up and down and it was, it was quite an effort. Quite an effort. And of course when the all clear went Mr Ashdown would put the thing over to green and we would get the continuous wail of all clear and again we all shook to death.
AC: You can hear it now.
RR: I can indeed. And I can see Mr Ashdown now too. It’s amazing how many of those faces that even though what, I was ten, eleven going on, still remembering. And I remember him because he was, he was his family and my father was, my mother and father spent a lot of time in the Working Men’s Club which was only about a hundred and fifty yards further on. The Charlton Liberal Club. And I know Mr Ashdown and his family used to come along at weekends on occasions. There used to be dances going on. This was all during the war. A dance would go on or a concert on a Sunday evening. But later on that had to cease. The Concert Hall was converted into a storage area for bombed out people’s furniture and lo and behold a bomb fell on the back of the Concert Hall on the edge of the railway because the railway line from Charlton Station through to the level crossing at Charlton through to Woolwich arsenal the bomb fell at the side of the railway and on the end of the Concert Hall. And it so happened because the Concert Hall was full of people’s furniture, bombed out furniture the people in the club because the Concert Hall ran from the club itself where the bar was and the snooker table, and so on. Because of all that furniture it took a lot of the blast away and the people in there were lucky because they, they got away very lightly. There were no casualties.
AC: Good.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ronald Roffey
Creator
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Andrew Cowley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARoffeyRA180830
Format
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00:41:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Devon
England--Torquay
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1940-09-07
1945-02-21
Description
An account of the resource
Ronald was born in Charlton, south-east London. He went to Charlton Junior School and was nine when war was declared. He remembered being fitted for a gas mask at his school. His aunt who lived in Torquay found a private billet for him and his mother in Barton, near Torquay. His mother returned to London and in September 1940; during the Blitz Ronald took a train journey back to London, meeting his mother at Paddington station. On their way back to Charlton the sky was red and all of the north bank of the Thames was alight. Ronald’s father worked for Siemens. He was also a fire warden and on one occasion the family had to evacuate their house when an unexploded bomb was found next to their garden. They went to stay with grandmother’s sister in her flat near Charlton lido. Ronald went back to Torquay before returning to London when the V-1s and V-2s were being dropped. At eleven he went to Woolwich Central School. He remembers a bomb falling on a pub behind the school. All of the school windows were broken but fortunately the children were in the playground and no one was hurt. Ronald joined the Boy Scouts and Holy Trinity Church choir. After he was confirmed at 12, he became a server. There was one occasion when an incendiary bomb fell on the church, lodging in the spire and it was his father who climbed up and put out the fire. Ronald left school at 17 and went to work in London. There he met his future wife Joan and they married in 1953. When Ronald was about 20 he heard that his cousin Richard, who flew in Bomber Command, had been reported missing, presumed dead.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
shelter
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1148/11705/AStopesRoeM150601.2.mp3
ef8f612b8ada6cba1003d1b6a12014ac
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stopes-Roe, Mary
M Stopes-Roe
Dr Mary Stopes-Roe
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Mary Stopes-Roe ( 1927 - 2019), the daughter of the designer Barnes Wallis.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stopes-Roe, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Mary Stopes Roe. The interview is taking place at Mrs Stopes Roe’s home in Birmingham on the 30th of May 2015. Mrs Stopes Roe is the daughter of Sir Barnes Wallis the English scientist, engineer and inventor.
MSR: All through the 30s we used to go on wonderful camping holidays down to Dorset. The Isle of Purbeck. And my father, they were lovely holidays, he was such fun on those holidays. And one of the games that we played there was skipping pebbles across the water, you know. As one does. Or some people do. Anyway, he used to skip pebbles across the water and he could get his to do eight or nine or something or other. I never could do it. It’s that flick of the, twist of the wrist which I never got and mine used to go plop and plop and down. But it was great fun, you know. That, I mean of course it isn’t exactly straightforwardly linked to the bouncing bomb but it was something that was in our background. And my father asked us four, well he told us four, to collect my mother’s old tin wash tub, to fill it with cold water which we brought out in cans and things from the kitchen and poured into the washtub. And it was placed on the garden table and then my father produced a catapult which he’d had made at the works and he borrowed my sisters’ marbles and he [laughs] he shot the marbles over the water in the water tub. And there were, there was a string spread across the water tub. And my brother who was the eldest and the most clever had to say whether the bobber went under or over the string and how many times it bounced going across the tub. And the rest of us stood and watched just thinking that daddy was playing a nice game. And then our job was to find the marbles when they’d dropped off the other side. The dear old family doctor who’d come up for reasons, I think my mother was worried about — I don’t know what she was worried about but anyway he was such a dear old friend he came a lot. And he stood in the background and there he is in the picture. My mother, who was very snap happy with her little Kodak thing, photographed everything that happened and she photographed that. And there we all are for time until eternity. Standing by the wash tub on the garden terrace. And my mother later reported that we children were all there of course and when, when the, when the raid was public knowledge my mother reported of course the children never said anything. Thinking that we were very virtuous. I mean she put about the idea that we were very virtuous and, you know, careful. Actually, of course, what really happened was we didn’t say anything was because we had no idea why he was playing this jolly game in the garden. And if you say to your friends when you’re sort of thirteen fourteen’ish, ‘Well my father bounced marbles on the water tub in the garden.’ I mean, you don’t do you because it sounds so stupid. So of course, we didn’t say anything. But the minute the raid was reported I realized what that was for. Roy Chadwick’s contribution, apart from designing the Lancaster, which is no mean feat anyway was absolutely critical to the whole raid. My father realized this and he wrote very warmly to Chadwick to thank him for the effort he made in altering the bomb bay of the Lancaster. Without which alteration the bomb couldn’t be carried and therefore no raid. That was never, I don’t think, I know he didn’t think that Chadwick had had enough honour and, and fame for, for what he did. And I certainly don’t think he did. I mean, when does he ever get mentioned? And yet without him there would not have been a raid, which my father knew and he, and he expressed his gratitude and admiration. The whole of that alteration was done on twenty Lancasters, I think in under three weeks or something. I mean, amazing. Well having altered the Lancaster, poor old Lancaster’s undercarriage to carry the upkeep. The bouncing bomb. Then of course my father designed the earthquake bombs — Tallboy and Grand Slam. A Tallboy is pretty big. A Grand Slam is even bigger and the Lancaster had to have her undercarriage altered again. Her bomb bays. In fact, in the Grand Slam, I think I’m right, that the bomb bay couldn’t actually be used. It had to be sort of tied up with rope. Not quite but when it came to Grand Slam, twenty two thousand pound of bomb underneath the Lancaster’s belly Roy Chadwick had to remove the bomb doors completely and attach the Grand Slam under her belly by means of chains. I mean, that was no mean alteration but it worked. And my father is remembered, mainly I suppose, for the bouncing bomb for the dams’ raid. For the engineer’s way of stopping the war which is wonderful. I don’t complain about that at all but he, it is not, he was not a man of war. He was a man of peace. He was brought up to believe very very firmly in the benefits of the society in which he lived. The culture in which he lived. The background against which he lived. And he thought it was his duty, indeed the duty of every man and woman to fight for, to protect this culture. That’s why he did it. Not because he was a man of war. He was not. Of course, you have big wars to fight and you fight them but in the mean, in between the wars he did develop the most beautiful airship, and successful, which I don’t, I don’t think people should forget. The R100. Not the R101. That’s a very interesting story that but not to be told here. But it was from the building of the R100 that he devised the geodetic structure for making curved and strong and lightweight bodies. Heavier than aircraft. That went straight into the Wellington, the Wellesley and would finally have been used in the Windsor which actually it was not used in the, in the war. I don’t think it every reached the bombing stage. So, it was really design that he was so interested in, I think. Apart from defending his family and country. Nation and belief. It was always the design. The best design that he was aiming at. After the war, in fact, before the war ended he’d moved on in his mind to civil aviation and the benefit for keeping together the Commonwealth as it, by then was. By the ability to fly all around the world without having to put down to take on whatever supplies were needed. Because the intervening lands might not be so welcoming. But this of course involved high speed which involves supersonic flight. Supersonic flight, to be achieved successfully as I have always understood it is it requires a different aeroplane. A different shape of the wings of the aeroplane. They should fold back so that it can dart through the, through the upper atmosphere without having these wings out at right angles. So, from that he started to design what was originally called the Wild Goose. In 1948 he started, well he was thinking of it before the war ended. And that is, he wrote some wonderful memoirs of that. That time. Writing actually in letters to my mother. He never wrote without having a purpose if you see what I mean. If somebody was going to read it. He never sent the letters but there they all are. First of all at Thurley old aerodrome in Bedfordshire and then down to Predannack in Cornwall. On the Lizard. And there Wild Goose turned into the Swallow which was a very beautiful aircraft with the swept back wings in high powered flight. But you have to have them in the normal position to take off in the ordinary atmosphere. So that’s the problem. He, the Swallow got to the point at which it could have had trial runs with a, with a test pilot. And his good old friend Mutt Summers and others would have been willing to try to fly the Swallow. But after the disaster, to my father’s mind, indeed quite true, of the deaths of so many brave young men in the dams’ raid he swore that never again would he put another man’s life in danger. He would not have a test pilot. So, and as everybody knows the government wouldn’t support the development any further and so as he sadly said, we sold it to America. What Boeing did with it I can’t remember. But anyway, my father sadly said as I also remember they spoiled it by putting a tail on it. There was a plan. He devised a design for a bridge to go, I think it was underwater. An underwater bridge over the Messina Straits between Italy and Sicily. I don’t quite know what happened to that design but I don’t think it ever got made. Which was a pity because it would have been, you know, rather interesting. He, he designed racing skiffs for boys clubs. That was his love. His love of the water and everything to do with the sea. So, when somebody asked him to do that he did it. He designed at Brooklands where he was working of course for, by this time it was BAC not Vickers Armstrong’s and the stratosphere chamber is absolutely huge. I have, in fact, I it was opened, it was redone by English heritage and opened again about a year ago. And it is there by the, by where he had his research and development department. And in it you could test anything that you wanted to have, wanted to be tested under extreme circumstances. For example, de-icing of trawlers and indeed de-icing of aeroplane structures too in very high altitudes. And there are wonderful photographs of trawlers with, in the stratosphere chamber, ice dripping off their rigging and all this and whatever. It’s amazing. That was his design and there it still is. So that, that was another thing that was quite important. While the Swallow was being developed and perfected in Predannack in Cornwall Leonard Cheshire joined Barnes Wallis again there. I think this is not very often remembered that that was a point at which the two worked together again and my father admired Cheshire very much indeed. I expect Cheshire admired him but that I don’t know because he was very interested in Cheshire’s work for the disabled, the sick and the needy and was a great supporter of the Cheshire homes. Always. And that’s not very often, I think, remembered. On that same line my father devised, he became the first president of the Bath Medical Engineering Institute and he, because he had designed lightweight calipers for children. You know, he had seen children hobbling about with great hefty things on, calipers on their legs and he designed lightweight calipers. And thus, he became the President of Bath Medical Engineering Institute which was a position which he held for quite some years. I’ve often wondered what it was that made him even think of, you know, sort of a bit far from bombs and flying at supersonic speeds. But looking back over his life his father, who was a doctor, got polio myelitis in 1893. And my father was then six and I mean, it was a pretty, it was a crisis for the family because of course at that stage there was no cure. He just was laid flat for six months. Money was scarce and so on. And in the end my grandfather had an enormous metal caliper down his leg. And I remember, as a child we used to wonder what on earth was under his trouser leg because it had this very sort of rigid angle at the knee and when he wanted to bend his leg he had to bend down and press the metal and it made a click and we were fascinated. But I suspect the trouble the family went through then stuck in Barnes’s mind for the rest of his life. One of the outcomes of the raid on the dams was that precision bombing became a possibility which it had not been before. You did not have to have carpet bombing once you had got a squadron with the skill and aptitude of 617. And they were amazing. You could actually precision bomb without damaging vast numbers of ordinary civilians. This was very important. My father had, had it in mind and the Tallboy and Grand Slam were on his drawing board but of course they couldn’t be used without the efficiency and skill and bravery of 617. So that the two were totally, totally linked. The development of the skill and competence of the squadron and the skill of the designer. One outcome of the dams’ raid, the success of the dams’ raid which is not often mentioned I think is the vital importance of precision bombing which 617 Squadron achieved. Previously, while of course there were many targets that would have benefited us greatly if we could have smashed couldn’t be broken by ordinary sized bombs and dropped from a great height. To do, to smash the really heavy armaments construction places in France and North Europe you needed things like the Tallboy and the Grand Slam. The earthquake bombs which my father had certainly begun to design. I don’t know how far he’d got by the time the dams’ raid was achieved but of course they, they were not any use without the capability for precision bombing which 617 had now achieved. Once the Air Ministry, War Ministry had realized this, that there was this ability to deliver a weapon. They did say to my father, you know, finish designing the earthquake which he then went and proceeded to do. And it was, I mean that the, the development of the precision bombing capability is not always, I think, given the merit that it should have been given. Those men were extremely skilled. Without their ability and of course the bomb. The tools to go to be used. The bombs. The earthquake bombs. The Tirpitz would not have been sunk. The first target to be hit by an earthquake bomb was the Saumur Tunnel. That was the Tallboy. Tallboy then went on to crack the V1 bomb launch sights. I remember those. They were famous. They came over. They made a droning noise. When you heard the droning noise you just were pretty near it, pretty careful to listen. If the droning noise stopped you were in trouble. Get under the kitchen table or something of the sort. But if the droning noise went on you were alright. It was somebody else. That was the V1s. All seen from a child’s point of view. And the other thing, the next, the next big, I think the most famous Tallboy success was where the V2 rocket was going to be. Rocket was going to be launched from. The V2 rocket was going to be launched from Northern France, a place called Wizernes, and it was from some sort of a launch. It was undercover. Under a great flat concrete surface of a depth which would be quite impossible for ordinary bombs to reach and which no amount of scatter bombing could possibly destroy. But we still have one of the 617 old boys. If I can call them that. John Bell. Who launched from, who launched a Tallboy. I don’t remember which plane. Which plane it was dropped from but —
AP: He dropped it from a Lancaster.
MSR: Oh, I know it was a Lancaster.
AP: Oh sorry.
MSR: I meant the, oh goodness me.
AP: I think it was KCA.
MSR: Was it? Oh, I’d better put that in it case it’s wrong.
AP: We’ll just say sorry about that. We’ll just keep talking. He was a bomb aimer.
MSR: Yeah.
AP: And he was the one who released that Tallboy.
MSR: Yes.
AP: On the dome.
MSR: Yes. The only way to destroy that dome was by an earthquake bomb. And John Bell, who is still with us who was the bomb aimer on the Lancaster that went over this Wizernes rocket pen and his bomb dropped on the, on this concrete dome. Lord knows how much concrete was piled in there but anyway the Tallboy destroyed it and the V2 rocket didn’t have a chance.
AP: So, they were never able to launch it.
MSR: No.
AP: Because it was in a chalk quarry, this is the interesting geology bit, it was in a chalk quarry and the dome was, there was a whole load of rockets underneath it. John’s bomb didn’t hit the dome. It just hit the outside of the dome and because it was chalk the earthquake shockwave crumbled the chalk.
MSR: Yeah. Yeah. This rocket, V2 rocket pen was actually constructed within a chalk quarry. A quarry for mining chalk and while my father had always said that if you could get a bomb into the, down into the earth deep enough it didn’t have to be actually on the spot because the earthquake effect would destroy the target that you were aiming at. I remember him saying that if it would, if water could increase the strength of an explosion at thirty feet then if you could only get a bomb down in the earth at sufficient depth the same sort of earthquake effect would, would work. And it did. And because it was in this chalk quarry the chalk all shook and crumbled and the whole thing collapsed. But it was the earthquake effect. Not having gone straight down through the concrete surface. But that was what my father had predicted would happen. He would get a bomb deep enough into the earth which the Tallboy did and the Grand Slam even more.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mary Stopes-Roe
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AStopesRoeM150601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Discusses her father’s designs work and remembers both skipping stones on a river during holidays with her father and catapulting marbles over a washtub in their garden. She goes on to discuss the Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation, the bouncing bomb and the Tall boy and Grand Slam bombs. She talks about the importance of Roy Chadwick and the Lancaster, and her father’s other designs that included the R100 airship, the geodetic structure of the Wellington, and designs for civil aircraft the Wild Goose and the Swallow.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Format
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00:23:12 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
bouncing bomb
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
childhood in wartime
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Tallboy
Tirpitz
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/171/PFilliputtiA16010082.1.jpg
adebecc2bf087069657b48a0830f2617
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bombers flying over San Giorgio di Nogaro
Description
An account of the resource
Bombers fly over a town. In the scene, every window is lit up. Civilians are running for shelter. A woman reaches out for her child. One man remains stationary and seems confused. The five aircraft are being targeted by anti-aircraft fire.
Label reads “207”; signed by the author; caption reads “Caption reads “3 GENNAIO 1945. Bimotori alleati, provenienti dalla marina in formazione libera, sorvolano S. Giorgio di Nogaro UD nelle ore serali sotto il tiro dei proiettili traccianti delle batterie tedesche della Baiana.”
Caption translates as: “4 January 1945. Allied twin-engines aircraft coming from the sea in an open formation, fly over San Giorgio di Nogaro (Udine province) late at night. They are targeted by tracer shot by German batteries at Baiana.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010082
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Antiaircraft artillery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--San Giorgio di Nogaro
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
anti-aircraft fire
arts and crafts
bombing
childhood in wartime
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/179/PFilliputtiA16010090.2.jpg
22a207b58ea037c4a8887b0a63f3bde5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bombing of Dresden
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010090
Description
An account of the resource
Men, women and children flee in panic surrounded by fire and destruction. One man falls to the ground near a pylon. Two ships are visible in the background and the nearer of the two has taken a direct hit and exploded in flames. At the top of the picture, six aircraft continue to bomb, causing further explosions and plumes of smoke.
Label reads “225”; signed by the author; caption reads “(I) DRESDA, GERMANIA, l’APOCALISSE CHE POCHI CONOSCONO. 13 FEBBRAIO 1945. La Bomba atomica sù Hiroshima provocò 71.000 morti, il bombardamento sù Dresda, sei mesi prima ne aveva provocati almeno 135.000. La tempesta di fuoco più violenta di tutta la storia, Goebbels diceva che a Dresda, c’erano solo fabbriche di dentifricio e talco, ma a Dresda furono i civili a pagare, e a un prezzo spaventoso. Il triplice attacco sù Dredsa, l’operazione “colpo di tuono” iniziò alle 22.15 del 13 Febbraio 1945, d’improvviso il cielo sì illuminò a giorno: erano le cascate di bengala al magnesio, in 3 minuti con un rombo assordante, planarono sulle case 244 ”Lancaster”…"
Caption translates as: “(1) Dresden, Germany – The Apocalypse That Only A Few Know. 13 February 1945. The atomic bomb on Hiroshima caused 71,000 deaths. Six months earlier, the bombing over Dresden caused at least 135,000 deaths: the most violent firestorm in history. Goebbels said that, in Dresden, there were only toothpaste and talcum factories. However, those who paid the consequences were mostly the civilians. They paid a horrendous price. The triple attack over Dresden – operation “Thunderclap” – began on 13 February 1945 at 10.15 pm. Suddenly, the sky became floodlit with magnesium flares. Within three minutes, 244 Lancaster aircraft glided [sic] on the houses, making a thunderous rumble…”.
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Dresden
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
arts and crafts
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
incendiary device
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/214/3353/PBrewsterDG1602.1.jpg
4638c2a9b10e66a020eed6251410c875
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/214/3353/ABrewsterDG160617.2.mp3
8de1fcde610d2afb6e235c498b312f6d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brewster, David
David G Brewster
David Brewster
D G Brewster
D Brewster
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with David Brewster and one photograph.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-07
2016-06-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Brewster, DG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is David Brewster. The interview is taking place in Mr Brewster’s home in Horncastle on the 17th of June 2016. Could you tell me a bit about your early life?
DB: I was brought up at Sutton on Sea as a little boy and we moved actually from Sutton on Sea to Alford in December 1939 but before we moved there I was taken up onto the sand hills at Sutton on Sea by my father and saw the Germans bombing a convoy out in the sea. We could see the aeroplanes and the ships and the bombs dropping in the water and some of our fighters were going up and down the coast to make sure none came inshore. That was my first recollection of the war and then we were dished out with gas masks, all of us at school, and we had to test those in the school and then, as I say, we moved to Alford and at Alford there was only ‒ Alford was only bombed on one occasion and the goods shed at the station was bombed one night and the night watchman was killed and, er, but we did see a lot of German aeroplanes over and, like, I remember standing outside my front door in Alford and there was a Heinkel 111 up in the sky and the hillside at Miles Cross Hill was covered in incendiary bombs, little fires all over. And once, I can’t quite remember just when it was, but I know there was two German ‘planes shot down at Bilsby It was one lunch time and my brother, he gobbled his lunch quick and gone out to some of his friends and came running back in saying “The Jerrys are here” and so, what did we do? We all went outside to see (laughs). These three German aeroplanes were flying over, being attacked by some of our fighters, and one of them was on fire and they disappeared into some cloud and then all bits were falling out and parachutes coming down and a lot of people from Alford went to see where they’d landed. Though I didn’t actually go to that [emphasis] crash site but I did learn that two of the aircrew were killed and, with a friend of mine, we were biking around Bilsby on one occasion, just afterwards, and there was a funeral taking place, a military funeral, so we stopped and had a look, and it was these two Germans that had been killed, so we went to the funeral. And, but there was quite a lot of planes that flew over. We saw these thousand bomber raids, the sky was absolutely full of aeroplanes. But near Alford there was Strubby airfield. Well, as boys we used to bike up half way up Miles Hill out of Alford and we could look down over the marshland area there over Alford and out to Strubby and we could watch them take off. And I used to go to an uncle’s farm near Stickney, near East Kirkby airfield, and there we used to bike and watch them take off and watch them come back again there. So, I did see a lot of aircraft around at different times and one thing that always stuck in my memory, and has done, was going out with my father out in Orby Marsh, out Skegness way, and we were walking across the fields to ‒. My father worked for the Drainage Board and we were going out to some drag lines where they were cleaning the drains out and these three Mustangs, these American Mustangs, flew over and they were so low we ducked [slight laugh]. And they were going [emphasis] (where they were going I don’t know) but they were in a hurry. And I also remember being at Sutton on Sea on one occasion, again during the wartime, when a flight of Beaufighters flew past. They’d got torpedoes under them and looking down to Huttoft way there was a pall of smoke going up. So I thought ‘what had happened?’ So next day at school I asked one of my friends from Huttoft I said ‘Did something happen down your way yesterday?’ He said ‘Yes and one of those planes crashed’. He said it had come down in a field just outside of the village and he says ‘You’ve never seen two people get out of a ‘plane and run so quick for their life’ as they’d got torpedoes on board. So they got out in full flying gear. He said ‘They would have beat any Olympic record to the nearest ditch’ [laughs]. But we used to bike out, my friends and myself all over to aeroplane crashes and try and salvage bits of them to see if we could have a souvenir of a plane crash somewhere, and we went out to all sorts, German and English planes, that had come down. One Lancaster – there’s a little monument just near Ulceby Cross. I don’t know if you’ve seen it there. Um, as you come to Ulceby Cross Road from Alford, go straight over towards Spilsby and on the next bend there’s a road goes off to Harrington and that way, and just in the corner of the first field there’s a little monument to a plane that crashed and it’s the Lancaster that got shot down by intruders. And Peter Rowlands from – He’s an ex-headmaster from Ancaster Grammar School (unfortunately he’s dead now) but he wrote a book about – “Lest We Forget” and it mentions that plane crash in there and it says about somebody biking up from Alford to it. Well, I said ‘I wasn’t the person that was written about in the book but I biked up the next morning to that crash and had a look at it’. Because the police sergeant lived next door to us and he came and told us where it was. But I also went to a German plane crash near Spilsby, at Asgarby, and there was a guard on duty on the gate and he wouldn’t let us in so I said ‘Can’t we go down to the wreck’ and he said ‘No, not allowed’ and I said ‘Well, you’ve got a guard down there’. ‘Well’ he said ‘You see that piece of stuff half way down there?’ I said ‘Yes’. He said ‘That’s an unexploded five hundred pound bomb’. So, he says ‘I’m not letting anyone go passed that’. But, well, we got around quite a lot of crashes. I also remember, as a naughty boy, scrumping some pears on one occasion, up a real tall pear tree in Alford, when a Heinkel 111 flew past and we could see the crew in there because they’ve got a big glass front and you could see the crew in there as they flew past. We didn’t pick any pears. We got down as quick and went home. [Slight laugh]. What happened to those, I don’t know. I also remember walking out. My father used to be a big walker and he’d go for a walk every Sunday morning while lunch was being cooked and I used to go out with him quite often, and we walked out on the road towards Strubby on one occasion, and we saw a plane come over, flew over us. It was a German plane. It went back and it dropped some bombs over Mablethorpe. We saw the blow from that. Also, in Alford, we did actually see the glow from that serious bombing they had at Hull. We could see the glow in the sky from that night. We stood outside in the road and we could hear planes about. We couldn’t see any because it was dark but we could see the glow in the sky from Hull burning, which was something you don’t forget. But it was, it was, a hectic time. And then, when I got to be thirteen I joined the ATC and used to go Manby every month and get a flight in some airplanes or other and I actually got a flight in a Lancaster and a Lincoln when I was there so I was very fortunate. But I could probably think of a lot more things later but, er, there was some of my recollections of the wartime.
AH: When you were in the ATC what did you do?
DB: We used to go to Manby once a month, and we used to go on the rifle range, shooting, we used to go and look at them, you know, watch the people repairing aeroplanes. It was a training place Manby, and we used to watch them doing all sorts of repairs and that sort of thing. And we were tested out on Morse code and everything. We had to know all about it and one of the main things was aircraft recognition, to make sure we knew what was ours and what was theirs, and they always used to take us for a ride in something while we were there. We flew in ‒, well I flew, in Ansons, Avro 19s, Harvards, Tiger Moths, Lancasters, Lincolns. I had a good old time really and thoroughly enjoyed it.
AH: Were they nice?
DB: Oh yeah, they were very good to us. And there was quite an interesting one, he’s dead now of course, he was our CO at the ATC from Alford, Geoff Hadfield. In your recollections and all things happening with bomber command I’m sure you’ll find out that name will crop up more than once ‘cause he was, what you’d call them? Looked out for aircraft, not an air raid warden, but they’d got posts, Observer Corp, that’s right. He was in the Observer Corp in Alford and so he had a lot of recollections and he wrote a lot of books and things, about things as well. He was the CO when we went flying in the Avro 19 and I nudged him and said ‘Geoff, the engine’s stopped and we’ve only got two’ and the colour sort of drained from his face. He said ‘It’s alright, it’s started again’. After a minute or two that [emphasis] one stopped because they were engine testing [laughs] but I could always see the funny side of that. I got a peculiar sense of humour. ‘Cause my rule about flying is, ‘the man who takes me up wants to come down for his dinner so he’s going to get down if he can’. So, there’s more chance of getting down than anything happening and I was always lucky, one or two rough landings, but mainly they were alright and afterwards, many years later, I actually flew in a microlight at Manby. I was the only one in the office that dare go up but we had a club running on East Kirkby, Manby ‘cause I worked at East Lindsey at that time on Manby. I persuaded the man to take me up for a ride. [Loud sound of chiming] Excuse me.
AH: And you went to Yorkshire with the ATC?
DB: Yes, with the ATC I went to a week’s camp at Diffield airfield and during that time I did get a ride in a glider which was quite novel, but I was lucky. But unfortunately there wasn’t a lot of breeze and we just did one circuit round but I found it very quiet [laughs] but again very interesting.
AH: Did you enjoy flying in the different ‘planes?
DB: Oh yeah, I’d fly in anything. We actually went on holiday once to Monaco for a week, sorry for a long weekend. Took my son for his eighteenth birthday and we flew from Manchester to Charles de Gaulle, from Charles de Gaulle to Nice and a helicopter from Nice to Monaco and then the reverse journey coming home again. And while we were coming home we took off in the helicopter and there was a big cruise liner just coming into Monaco so we flew round it so we could have a good look at that as well.
AH: How long were you in the ATC?
DB: Er, about three years, I think. Yes, I joined at thirteen and I started work at sixteen, that’s right.
AH: What year were you born?
DB: 1931. I’m getting a bit old in the tooth I’m afraid now. [Slight laugh.] Eighty-five this year.
AH: And so you first lived in ‒?
DB: Sutton on Sea. We were there in Sutton on Sea until the December of 1939. War started in the September and then my father’s job took him ‒ he had to ‒ he was working in Alford but he had to go and live in Alford. So we left Sutton on Sea which, from looking back with hindsight, was a very good thing really because our playground was the sand hills. And the sand hills were all mined in the wartime and whether we could have been kept off them or not is anybody’s guess because I know one or two people were blown up by them. And when they finally moved them all out, got rid of all the mines, they couldn’t find a lot because the sand moves and they’d moved with the sand, and they washed them out with hose pipes and, er, some of the bomb disposal people were at Well, just outside Alford, at the army camp there and Ted Burgin, one of their people, was on this and he was a real footballer and he played for the England B at football afterwards. He used to play for Alford on a Sunday, no, on a Saturday, army on a Sunday and when he came out of the army he played for Sheffield [laughs]. I knew him quite well at that time ‘cause my friends lived up at Well, so I spent a lot of time round there.
AH: What was he like?
DB: He was a very nice bloke actually, a very ordinary person, but dedicated to what he was doing, shifting all these mines and he was laughing about washing them all out and them exploding all over the place.
AH: Who got blown up by them? Was it children?
DB: I can’t remember but I do remember some mines going off at Mablethorpe once, but I can’t remember whether it was children or who it was but it was somebody in Mablethorpe area that got injured by them. But there was defences put all down in the sea, like scaffold poles aiming outwards in the sea on the coast there, in case anything came ashore. Because the shore on the Lincolnshire coast is an easy place to land normally, come in at high tide and you’re right up on the foreshore, right at the top end. So that had these scaffold poles aiming out to sea so if anything came in they got stuck [slight laugh]. They were down at low tide.
AH: Was there a feeling that you could be invaded?
DB: At that time, yes, there was a worry that we could easily be invaded and, yeah, we were very pleased to hear the news at times about when things turned round and of course at Well Camp as well, there was an awful lot of airborne there, before Arnhem. ‘Cause they were at Woodhall Spa as well but there was a lot at Well, and they all went off and I can’t remember how many came back now but a lot of them didn’t of course.
AH: Was there a charge when the war started round here? Did society round here change? Was there a big influx of - ?
DB: We had refugees from – We got them in Alford from Grimsby and at school, my class at school, there was two or three of these people that had come from, boys of my age like, come from Grimsby and were – They were there for the duration of the war so we got to know what it was like up there [loud clock chimes] because they were in touch with their family but, yeah, anyway I can’t remember how many came to Alford, but quite a lot.
AH: What was that like?
DB: Well they just became part of the school and I remember one of them, he was lodging with a farmer who had a milk round and, of course, in a few days he was doing the milk round [laugh].
AH: Was there a big influx of service persons?
DB: Oh, service persons, well a big army camp at Alford just as you come out of Alford going towards Spilsby on the right hand side by the cemetery, where the cemetery is now, then next to the cemetery is a big highways depot and some of them buildings are ones that were put up in the wartime. They’re still the same ones, well that part and the field beyond was a big army camp. And there was a big army camp at Well and a big army camp at Bilsby and Bilsby at one point became mainly Polish people, later on, after they moved the Germans out. I’m not sure where there was an Italian prisoner of war camp but there was an Italian prisoner of war camp in the area and they used to take them out in the lorries, working, ‘cause I remember going with my father down to Anderby Creek ‘cause the creek itself, which is a drain outfall into the sea, it had got sanded up and they got a lorry load of these people to dig it out and I went down to see them there.
AH: What did they look like?
DB: Well, same as anyone else. They were in a uniform but that’s all. And at one point in the wartime I also worked on a farm just outside Alford. My friends had a farm and their father said they wanted some help and I went to help them in harvest time and there was two German prisoners of war worked there and they used to be brought in every day and taken out again at night. But there was a German prisoner of war camp at Moorby just between here and Revesby. I think it’s all gone now but it was there until not long ago. Oh, I know where there were some Italians up at, er, just the other side of of Baumber, Sturton [?] Park, because when I was up at Manby we got some planning applications there and one of the lads went out to visit the site there and, in some of the huts at that point, there was still some paintings on the wall that the Italian prisoners of war had done but they’ve all gone now, all disappeared, which is a shame.
AH: Did you ever talk to any prisoners of war?
DB: Talked to the ones I worked with at ‒, on the farm, yeah, one was very dour ‒, hardly said a word, but there was a young one there. He was only eighteen and he chatted away. He spoke quite a bit of English and he was looking forward to going home after the war and I presume he did. But he was just an ordinary person.
AH: What did you talk about?
DB: We talked about the war and we talked about ‒, at that time it was going our [emphasis] way, and he said ‘Yeah, let’s hope it soon finishes and I can go home’. But he was talking about the farming and life in the prisoner of war camp. They were fairly well looked after. He’d had no complaints but I think, if I remember rightly, he was on the Russian side and it looked like he’d be captured there and he’d got right back across to the American side and give himself up [laughs] ‘cause he didn’t fancy being captured by the Russians. He got back and presumably ‒ I never saw him afterwards, like. I presume he went back to Germany. I did meet one German after the war. I got some relations and that they’d met some Germans before the war and after the war the German had contacted them again and he actually came over to stay over here, across in Lancashire, in actual fact it was Mary’s first husband who was friendly with him, and he came and stayed with them in Darwen in Lancashire and they brought him over to Lincolnshire, to Partney, which was Mary’s home and he was a very nice bloke. No problems.
AH: And he’d been a prisoner of war?
DB: No, he hadn’t been a prisoner of war. He’d been in Germany all the war. But as I say, he’d made contact as a boy before the war and afterwards he wrote to see if they were still about, and found out they were, so he came over and there was no enmity or anything like that. He was just a good friend. But Mary’s first husband, he finished up in Colditz.
AH: What happened?
DB: I don’t know what happened altogether. Somewhere up in the attic upstairs I think, or somewhere in my records, I’ve got a newspaper cutting about him when he died. He weren’t all that old when he died. But he, er, he was captured, like, on the continent somewhere, I’m not sure where, maybe Dunkirk, I don’t know, but I’ve got all the details somewhere but I just can’t find them at the minute, but he finished up at Colditz and he was released from there at the end of the war.
AH: What was his name?
DB: Jim, Jim Walsh. He worked for ICI and, originally, I think he must have met Mary in the wartime because he was over at one time or just after the war. Because he worked at Grimsby for the Wallpener [?] shop. Wallpener was a type of emulsion paint of yesteryear. They used to sell it in a shop in Manby. ICI, he worked for them in Grimsby and he met Mary somewhere there. They got married and lived in Grimsby and then he got transferred to their headquarters at Darwen and he moved back there and Mary went with him, of course ,obviously, and they made a life over there and, unfortunately, he died and she married again, Eric, and he was the one was out in Italy during the wartime. He was at the, er, Montecassino there, and he was out there one day, him and Mary, after the war, they were out there after Montecassino had been rebuilt, and they were out there looking around it on one occasion, they went on holiday, and they met an army – I think he was a major. And they were looking round and he said ‘Do you know this area?’ Eric said ‘Yes, I know it very well,’ he said ‘I was here in the wartime’. ‘Were you?’ he said ‘Yes’ he said ‘I was here in the wartime behind that hill over there’. [Another person enters the room.] Eric and Mary were out there. He said ‘Where were you?’ He said ‘I was behind that hill over there’. ‘Oh’ he said ‘We’ve got a special service on Sunday. Would you like to come?’ So they went and they were special guests at this memorial service at Montecassino. So it was ‒ they enjoyed it very much. Eric often talks about it now.
AH: What’s Eric’s surname?
DB: Johnson.
AH: And Mary was your cousin?
DB: She was my father’s cousin.
AH: What was her surname?
DB: She was a Holdiness before she was married, from Partney. They farmed at Partney. She was one of ten and my mother she died, unfortunately, when she was only forty-eight and my father married again and he married his cousin, which was Mary’s sister. So it was a bit of a complicated family [laughs]. But I had one brother and he was a year and nine months older than me. Unfortunately, he died about twenty years ago now. He was only fifty-nine when he died. He was Just due to retire the following year. He was in the Met Office. He had a heart attack, unfortunately. But these things happen. [Long pause.]
AH: And when you saw the ships being bombed from Sutton on Sea, were they‒? How far away was it?
DB: Four or five miles out I suppose, something like that. You could see they was ships and we could see splashes in the water. Obviously bombs were being dropped. We did hear on the grapevine somewhere, I don’t know where my father got the information from, some of the planes were shot down. I don’t know whether they were or not but they were Heinkel 115s, I do know that. The float planes. They were sea planes.
AH: How did it feel to watch them?
DB: Well, it was so far away. You could hear the bumps but they were too far away really to realise what was happening, I suppose, as a young lad of eight years old [laughs]
AH: And you saw a Zeppelin?
DB: Yes, I saw a Zeppelin pre-war. Again, I was at the sea front with my father and this Zeppelin flew back, obviously going back to Germany, it was going out across the North Sea, and it was either the Graf Zeppelin or the Hindenburg. I don’t know which, I believe the Graf Zeppelin ‘cause it flew over here quite a lot, I believe, and I remember this great cigar-shaped thing in the sky. It was enormous.
AH: And how did you feel about that?
DB: Well, as a little lad, excited, and of course there wasn’t a war on, of course, at that time, before the war, and as a little lad I thought it was marvellous to see this thing fly over. Little realising what it was really doing. I’ve actually flown in an airship since then. The Goodyear airship. I got a ride in that on one occasion at Doncaster race course. And they call them airships and you can understand why when you’re flying in them because it feels like a ship at sea. That’s what it feels like. That was through Goodyear Tyres ‘cause my wife was company director, company secretary sorry, for B A Bush Tyres at that time and we got an invitation to go [slight laugh].
AH: How exciting.
DB: I don’t know what else I can tell you. I’m sure an awful lot more will come back as time goes on.
AH: Has Sutton on Sea changed a lot?
DB: Oh, changed enormously [emphasis]. The biggest change was after the flooding in 1953 because I remember them building the sea front, basically, there, the original sea front with all the chalets on the top, the colonnade as we’d call it with the chalets on top and half of that was washed away in the flood. But before that there was the old promenade on the front and it had railings along the front and just steps down. And I can remember being stood on there as a little lad, I can’t remember what ‘plane they were flying, but Alex Henshaw and his father flew past as we were stood there on the promenade, and we looked into the aeroplane it was so low and we could see pop Henshaw and Alex in the aeroplane as it flew past. ‘Cause Alex Henshaw was a test pilot during the war, for Supermarines. He was a test pilot, in Spitfires mainly, and during that time, in the wartime, his home was at Sutton on Sea but he was actually stationed at Brooklands, I think it was, where they flew from mainly, and he had a good system. He used to, on a Friday late afternoon, he’d take his Spitfire up for a test flight, he’d fly up to Strubby, land at Strubby. He had a bike there, he’d bike down home for the weekend and on Sunday night he’d bike back, jump in the Spitfire and fly back. I actually got to know him quite well after the wartime. He was a very nice person, a very ordinary person, and I knew his son very well, young Alex (he was an Alex as well). But Alex, he only died not many, just a few years back now. He was in his nineties when he died. But one of the stories that went around at Strubby, ‘cause he did also test Lancasters out as well, they got him to test one at Strubby on one occasion, and the story that went around was that he flew along the runway so low that if he’d put his wheels down it would’ve jacked him up [laughs]. Now that was the story. Whether it was true, right or wrong, I have no idea but knowing the way he used to fly I can well imagine it was true. But he still holds the record for a single-engined light aircraft from England to Cape Town and back again, which he did in 1938, I think it was, and that record still holds for that type of plane and somewhere in my records I’ve got a photo of that plane. And as a little lad at school at Sutton on Sea at that time there was a reception at Sutton on Sea for him when he came back and all the school went.
AH: And where was the reception?
DB: In the front of what was The Beach Hotel. Well, the Beach Hotel is no longer there. It was badly flooded in the flood in ’53. It was used afterwards for a time but since then it’s been demolished. And as you go down Sutton High Street the pull over is in front, and the war memorial, and just to the left of that was The Beach Hotel and the car park, and it was in the car park of The Beach Hotel. I shouldn’t think there’s many people now as remembers that.
AH: And what happened at the reception?
DH: Well, all I can remember is being there as a school and him on the platform in front, basically. And he was introduced to us and congratulated on what he’d done. That’s all my recollection is, as I say. I think it was ’38 when he did that so I wasn’t very old.
AH: Have the amount of holiday makers changed going to Sutton on Sea?
DB: Yes, yes. Well, Sutton on Sea has grown enormously [emphasis] since the flood, in fact, because where we lived in Church Lane at Sutton on Sea if we didn’t get the sea in our front garden in winter time we’d had a bad winter. We thought it was marvellous if the sea came over the top but of course there was a big dyke opposite and most of it would run into the dyke and disappear. And there was fields opposite as well. Well the fields are now all developed, all housing and everything like that, and there’s an awful lot of housing gone on there in Sutton on Sea and in Mablethorpe, of course, as well. I don’t know how many times it’s doubled or trebled in size but quite a lot. But the shops down there now are nearly all seaside type shops. They’re not the shops they used to be. There used to be one shop in Sutton on Sea, Miss Johnsons’, which was a ladies outfitters shop, and people from Nottingham used to come there shopping. It was a real high class shop and if you bought something from Miss Johnson’s you’d got something [emphasis]. It was the fashions of the day but it’s gone now, it’s no longer that. It’s a hardware shop or something like that now. And next to it is The Bacchus Hotel and the car park at the left of The Bacchus Hotel used to be The Bacchus Hotel garage and one of my uncle’s worked in that.
AH: So your family, were they around?
DB: My father came from Sutton on Sea. The name Brewster maybe rings a bell. The Brewsters of the Mayflower days. One of my father’s uncles, my father’s brothers [emphasis], he was an elderly uncle of mine, he did some research into the family history. He was a Detective Sergeant in the Police so he was a good man to do that. He sorted out, he went down to Somerset House to sort out and he sorted out that the Brewster family that went over to America on the Mayflower, some generations later some of them came back to this country, and we are descended from that lot and they came back to Orby and they were all blacksmiths in Orby, and so we are descended from them. The original ones came from just outside Gainsborough ‘cause there’s a Brewster Cottage next to the church at Gainsborough and, of course, at one point they sailed from Immingham originally and there’s a monument at Immingham to them sailing there. Well, it was in the middle of the docks on the point where they sailed but now it’s been moved to the village, just opposite the church, because it was all surrounded by big oil tankers in the docks and of course people weren’t allowed in there. Although, I must admit I went in a few times. I was able to from my work. But the, er, my grandfather, he was the son of the blacksmith at Orby. He thought being blacksmithing was too hard work and he moved to Sutton on Sea and he was the first person to have horses on the beach for people to ride on, on the beach at Sutton on Sea, but unfortunately he died when my father was only three so my father never remembered him.
AH: And did they carry on with the horses?
DB: No, no way. My grandmother then sold the house they were in and built a pair of smaller houses in the park at Sutton, in Park Road East, and she moved into one of those and let the other one.
AH: Is that how she survived?
DB: Yeah, and my father was brought up there in that house. He can’t remember being in the other house at all or didn’t remember. He doesn’t now of course. Unfortunately he’s gone. But he didn’t remember the original house, Sidney House, as it was known as. It’s an estate agents now and where the arch was at the side of it to go through to where he’d keep the horses is now a fish ‘n chip café belonging to the fish and ship shop next door. They’ve got that bit of it. So things have changed a lot.
AH: And what did your father do?
DB: He worked for the Alford Drainage Board. He was the Finance and Rating Officer for the Alford Drainage Board and they had an office at Mablethorpe originally, a sub office, and that’s where he worked originally. Then they moved him to the Alford office and he had to move to Alford and he moved up there in 1939.
AH: What did you think of that?
DB: Oh, it was exciting really. We’d only just recently moved in Sutton on Sea from the original house, which didn’t have a bathroom, to a house that had got a bathroom. We moved in, I think it was in the October, and in December we left that house and went to one in Alford without a bathroom again, one that had only got gas lights and a pump outside for water. So we lived a little bit of a spartan life until after the war and then the landlord there put electricity into the house and a water supply and then put a bathroom in later. But it was rather spartan to start with [laughs].
AH: And where did your mother come from?
DB: She came from Stickford and I think she went to Sutton on Sea. She worked for Crawfords, who were bakers down there. She went down ‒ Her elder brother was running a garage there and I think that’s why she went there, I think he found her a job down there working for Crawfords and she worked for them, not Crawfords, Copelands sorry in those days, became Crawfords later. But they, that’s where they met and they married in 1924 at Stickford and that was where my grandfather at that time ‒ he had The Globe Inn at Stickford, the pub there, and that’s where we used to go for our holidays, to the pub.
AH: And how was that?
DB: Oh, we used to love going there. Because my grandfather had got a field as well, where he used to keep chickens and grow potatoes and things like that, and just across the road from the ‒, from his field, was the local cobbler and he had a barrel organ in his place and we used to go along and play it (laughs).
AH: During the floods in Sutton on Sea did you have family still living there?
DB: I had an auntie and cousin living there at that time and they were flooded out. They lived in what had been my grandmother’s house and they were flooded out and my father ‒. They were brought to Alford from there and my father at that time had married again and he was living at Partney, at the farm, and he fetched them to the farm and they lived there for a while.
AH: Did they say anything about the flood?
DB: I’ve got some photographs of it and there’s a heap of sand about as high as this room in front of their house, which came out of their house and out their garden. Oh, I actually saw the flood that night, at Hannah, about what? A couple of mile in land. I was ‒, I got some friends with me staying the night, not staying the night, they come over and were playing cards, my brother was at the Met Office and he was at Manby at work and my ‒, I lived with my sister in law at that time and my brother, and as I say my brother was at work, my sister in law had a friend staying the night and I got two friends down from Well and we were all playing cards. And the baker used to come round late at night, about half past nine at night, the baker would come. And I went to the door. I said ‘It’s a bit rough tonight Mr Heath’. He said ‘Yes, it is. This time the sea is this side of the railway at Sutton on Sea’. I said ‘Come off it, I lived down there. If was splashing over nicely it would be worth going to look at’. I went back in and said to the rest of them ‘The sea is splashing over nicely at Sutton and Mr Heath says he’s heard it’s this side of the railway line’. And one of my friends, he’d got his father’s car, he said ‘Let’s go and look’ and we went off down and we go to Hannah and the house on the corner and all the houses round about had got all the lights on, and by this time it was about ten o’clock at night. Well, by that time, out in the country like that, most people had gone to bed. And we were going up a little rise going up to the church from a farm at Hannah and my friend who was driving pulled up and said ‘Let’s go and look out’ so we pulled up and his brother and myself got out and had a look over the hedge. All you could see was water. That was the sea coming in and we looked down behind and it was coming across the road behind us so Ray went and put his finger in it and tasted it ‘It is the sea, it’s salty’ . So I shouted ‘For Pete’s sake turn the car round, we’re going back’ and by the time we went back, where it had come across was about six inches of water had come across the road, and we went back up. But I didn’t think then, in our own mind, that Sutton would be as badly flooded as it was because, just near where we used to live in Sutton on sea, I’d got some friends down there. There was the estate agent in Sutton and he lived about three doors from where we used to live and I went to help, well we all went down to help him clear his house out. He wasn’t at home the night of the flood so everything was just as he left it, and as I stood in his front room it was my eye level, the water level, and one of these metal buoys, about that big, that they have on fishing nets and such like, had come through his bay window, for one thing, and we found that in the front room. But we took everything out. He salvaged what he could out of his sideboards and that sort of thing, what he thought he could deal with, and the rest of it was just put the hose pipe on. And we put the hose pipe right throughout the house. I know my brother and myself, we dragged the carpet out and we hung it on his clothes line, and the clothes line really sagged but he couldn’t do anything with it. It was way past it. It was covered in sludge and everything. So we did a good move in moving away from there [laughs].
AH: And when you – Did people have time to get out?
DB: There were quite a few casualties all the way down the Lincolnshire coast. I don’t know of any in actual Sutton on Sea but there was some down at Sandilands. One house in Sandilands, it was about ninety per cent washed away. There was two walls standing and one room upstairs and the people were in that room, there was two ladies in that room, and they got out. But the whole of the area was under water. It was dreadful. And after the flood I was working in the planning office at that time at Louth and I was seconded to the River Board, Lincolnshire River Board it was, which is now the Water Authority. They were the authority, you know, sorting everything out and my wife worked for them and her office in Sutton on Sea was flooded out and my father arranged for her and the other girl out of the office to stay with my brother and his wife and me in Alford and we had various people up there as well. Other friends and relations come and stayed. Some of them stayed only one or two nights and went but Olive and Gretta, they stopped for quite a while, and Gretta married one of the other lads that was there. And she lives at, what do you call it? Scremby now, out there, and I married Olive and we were married fifty four years before she died. So it did a good thing in some respects [slight laugh].
AH: Absolutely.
DB: But we had ‒, although it was a very hectic time, I worked in the offices there on the radio to the engineers down there, for the engineers and such like, in the offices at Alford. They took over a whole big two or three storey building in Alford Market Place, which now is no longer here. It’s been demolished since. But I worked the day shift and a friend of mine, a colleague of mine, from the planning office at Lincoln, he did the night shift. We did a twelve hour shift each, eight ‘til eight. People wouldn’t do that now but we did and I know on one occasion I was ‒, Henry [?] had just come on at eight o’clock to take over from me, and one of the engineers came through ‘Can any of you drive?’ I said ‘Yeah’. ‘Take my Landrover down to Mablethorpe to the office down there. They won’t mind. It’s got the radio in it and bring me one back’. So, I jumped in his Landrover with, I think, one of the army blokes. We’d got some army people with us as well. Well, he jumped in with me and we drove down to Mablethorpe. We got in the Landrover there to drive back and it was chug, chug, chug, chug, going at no speed at all. So I said ‘There’s something wrong here somewhere’. And of course it was in four wheel drive, wasn’t it? [laughs] I’d never driven a Landrover until that night. Anyhow, I managed to find out how to get it out of it into ordinary drive and we came back and I think I got my tea that night about 10 O’clock.
AH: And what did your aunt do on the night of the flood?
DB: She went upstairs. She went upstairs out of it. I had a cousin in Mablethorpe who was flooded out. Her husband wasn’t at home. I don’t know where he was that night. And she was sat in the room and she suddenly found her feet were getting wet. That was the first thing she knew that anything was happening. And she went and the children went upstairs but one of the friends that came to stay with us, well two of them, one was this estate agent that I knew in Sutton very well and they’d got a new baby and his sister, no his brother in law that’s right, his wife’s brother, had also got a new baby and it was going to be the christening the following day. Of course, that was all cancelled. Had to be. But they lived in a bungalow in the park in Sutton and they were keeping everything they could out of the water as much as they could, putting up on top of tables and everything, like, trying to keep everything out of the water and I think Frank made a way through into the false roof so he could go up there out the way. But it was very frightening. In one estate at Ingoldwells there was seven people drowned on one estate, the Lovedays Estate as they call it down there. As I say, an estate of bungalows, supposedly built as holiday bungalows, on the seaward side of Roman Bank. Well, of course all of that area up to Roman Bank filled up with water and it came over, over the top, and they’d nowhere to go but they were in a state of, er, ‒. Two or three dozen bungalows in there that had been built at that time (they were still building them at that time) and, er, they, now it’s ‒. Some of the bungalows were left, some were twisted on their foundations and did all sorts. And they were all taken down and now the rest of it is caravans.
AH: Before we started you were talking about a man, a neighbour, was killed during the war, one of the oldest who were killed.
DB: Yeah, Mr Scrimshaw.
AH: Just tell me about him again.
DB: Well, he was in the RAF and he volunteered for aircrew and he was an older gentleman. Well, he was thirty-nine when he was killed. And his daughter worked for my father and after she left my wife actually worked for my father (before we were not going out or anything) and then she ‒. He used to come home on leave and lived just round the corner from us. And he used to come past our house on his way to, up to the town to the pubs for a pint at dinner time, and, er, he used to stop and talk to us on the way past. Like we knew him well, we knew the family well and he, unfortunately, didn’t come back from one raid. And when I was at the memorial centre at Riseholme they looked him up and they found out that he actually flew from Skellingthorpe but they found out the details of it and where he went down and everything.
AH: And what was his role?
DB: I thought he was a navigator but they got him down in some of their records, they showed him as a rear gunner. And they got in some of the records as a flight sergeant and some as a pilot officer so he obviously got promoted during his time in the RAF or in flying crew presumably. But he was in, as I say, just about the end of his tour ‘cause they used to do thirty raids. That was their tour. But I know one person down in Old Leake area, Sid Marshall, down there. I’ve met him a few times and he did two tours. He did over sixty tours of flying. And when the Canadian Lancaster was over here, I can’t remember where he flew from, he flew in the English Lancaster [unclear] from Coningsby, and they flew him in that that day, and they flew back to Coningsby somewhere, and they flew Sid in it and he hadn’t been in a Lancaster for I don’t know how long. But it’s amazing the people who you meet over a period of time and where you’ve been. When I was in the ATC at Manby once I actually sat in the cockpit of a Messerschmitt 163, which was the rocket propelled German fighter. They had one parked up there and that is now part of East Lindsey offices where it was parked in [laughs].
AH: Where had they got that from?
DB: I don’t know. When we went there it was there one day and they took us to show us it and we could sit in the pilot seat. It’s only a one man band like. They also flew a Messerschmitt 188 there for quite a while. Well, they flew it after the war until they couldn’t get any more parts to keep it going and it was scrapped then. I saw it there a few times.
AH: What did you like flying in best?
DB: Well, I think I just liked flying. I don’t think – I enjoyed the flight in the Lancaster ‘cause we flew over the Humber and over Hull and in that area, and one of the interesting things on that particular flight, I was just at the back of the cockpit, stood up in the back of the cockpit, so I could see everything happen. The pilot was there and the flight engineer and there was another lad up there with me in there. He sat down and began to look a bit pale and the flight engineer said ‘Are you alright lad?’ He said ‘I don’t feel very well. He said ‘I’ll cure you’. Stood him up, opened the window and stuffed his head out [laughs]. He wasn’t sick and he wasn’t sick any time in the flight. It cured him [laughs]. We were flying somewhere over the Humber at that time. But drastic treatment. But it worked. It cured him [laughs].
AH: Did your mother work?
DB: No, she was in the Red Cross right through the war. In fact, I’ve got her medals upstairs from that and she was in the Red Cross right through. As far as I remember the only work she did after, when I was a little lad at Sutton on Sea, we used to take in visitors in the summer time and we would all move to the back of the house and the front house was let out, it was let out to visitors, and she would cook and look after them. But my father was seriously ill in ’36 ’37 winter. He didn’t work for about six months and she had saved up to that point a hundred pound. Well a hundred pound at that time was a lot of money but that kept us going right through until he could work again. And for the last fortnight before he actually went back to work he went to Bournemouth for a fortnight’s convalescence down there, him and me mother, and they went down there. And that was the last of money she’d got so it did a good job because he lived ‘til he was eighty three [slight laugh]. Lived for nineteen years on one lung.
AH: What was wrong with your father?
DB: Well, he lost his lung just after we were married. He, er, he worked for the Drainage Board and they’d been sorting out some old records and they were down in the cellar. They were all damp and fusty and he breathed some of that fust in and it stuck in his lung and grew and he had to go down to Bromfield, yeah, Bromfield Hospital in London and they took one lung out. I spoke to the surgeon afterwards. He said when they opened the lung out ‘You know what a fusty loaf of bread looks like?’ He said ‘that was what his lung was like inside’. The other one was OK and he lived another nineteen years on that and he got, I don’t know, pneumonia or something like that in the end and unfortunately he died from that. He got a chest infection anyway.
AH: And what did your mother do in the Red Cross?
DB: I used to be a patient and she used to practice bandaging on me [laughs]. But she worked at a Red Cross group in Alford and she went to that every week, I think it was, and they used to be available to look after all the army and navy personnel or anybody who wanted looking after in the wartime. And they did anything, any accidents and that had happened they were called out and they looked after these people until they could go somewhere different. As I say, I got three or four of her medals upstairs what she had for her services in the Red Cross and I still support the Red Cross.
AH: You said you saw the good sheds burning? Or did you see it?
DB: No, I didn’t see the goods shed burning but it was blown up while we were there and I didn’t know until a long time after we were married, and we lived in New Bolingbrook, that the person who was killed in there was – I know he was a bloke called Bush ‘cause I didn’t know any Bushes at that time but, of course, when I went to New Bolingbrook my wife went to work for B A Bush and Son, the tyre people (and she had twenty-two years working for them) and it was one of their family, Ivor Bush, who ran the depot at, er, well, built the business up basically, it was his uncle who was killed. But I do remember on one occasion there was a raid on during the war and I remember my brother – we all dived into our mother and dad’s bedroom and we could hear planes about and my brother was looking out the window and he said ‘Oh, that’s one of ours just gone past’. With that it opened up with its cannons on the army camp [laughs]. It was a German night fighter and it, the guard at the camp, he dived under the road bridge (there’s a drain went underneath) and he dived right under that and there were shells all round him where he’d been. And also I’ve mentioned Geoff Hadfield, in the Observer Corp. There was an Observer Corp post down Willoughby road, that was the post where he was at, and he was in the place that night, and in the grass field across to it there was cannon fire up to about a hundred yards before it and it started again one hundred yards past. For some reason he’d taken his finger off the trigger, the German pilot had, and the Observer Corp post wasn’t hit but if it had, well, they wouldn’t have a chance because it was a directly in line of fire. I don’t know if that was the night the plane was shot down at Ulceby, near Ulceby Cross, or not, but that was by an intruder. It was shot down by an intruder. There’s a little monument there in the hedge bottom, two of them, and every year there’s a little poppy wreath goes on it. I don’t know who does that. And I actually worked for the Air Ministry at one point rebuilding East Kirkby and Steeping airfields for the Americans so I worked on there and at East Kirkby behind the hangars there. There’s twenty-three acres of concrete and I did the surveys for that. They built a mass parking apron, as they called it then, because by that time when the airfields were built in the war there was these dispersal points all-round the airfields, so they parked all the aircraft round about, so if there was any bombing took place it only took out one or two but, of course, with the modern bombs , if they dropped one on the airfiled it would flatten the lot, so they put all the planes together ‘cause it was easier to look after them and built this mass parking apron, twenty-three acres of concrete. I did the surveys before it was built and then it was designed and built and I supervised it being built.
AH: And when was that?
DB: Er, ’55 ’57 when that was built and it was only used for about a month. I actually joined the Air Ministry as an Assistant Engineer and my post really was as build draughtsman because I had to do a survey of all the buildings on East Kirkby and Spilsby airfields or Steeping as we knew it as. Because they’d all been altered by the Americans over the wartime and there were no records of them. So my first job I was employed at Grantham and then I was posted to East Kirkby because I could live at home and work from there at Alford at that time (there was my brother and sister-in-law over at Alford) and so that’s what I did and so I started off on that, doing this survey of all the buildings there so they got a record of them all. They’d got records of what they should be like but they weren’t [laughs] and I started doing that and then they came on with the part one contract, as they called it, to do the runways and everything and build this mass parking apron and I was transferred over to that group. So I did surveys of the runways at East Kirkby and at Steeping. ‘Cause we did some roller tests on them for safety to see if they were strong enough and they weren’t. We’d put a fifty ton roller over East Kirkby and a two hundred ton roller over Steeping and when they’d finished rebuilding Steeping and they did a test on it, the test should have come out at forty LCN, as it was called in those days, Lowest Common Number (they got a special testing rig that gave these figures). It came out at nine so it wasn’t fit to use and it never has been used apart from the odd light aircraft landing on it now and again but East Kirkby was better. The asphalt, the hot rolled asphalt put in went wrong for some reason, I don’t know why, but it went wrong and it was rotten underneath. The surface was good, if you dug the surface up you could just pick it up with your hands there was no strength in it, so what caused that –? When I left them they were testing, still testing, to find out what caused, what the problem was. But the Americans actually did use East Kirkby for one month for a big NATO exercise and they had big strata tankers in there flying for this month and then it was closed down. But they were testing when I was there and the junior engineer above me, he was posted to South Uist in the Outer Hebrides and I didn’t want to go out there ‘cause I wanted to get married. So I began looking round for another job and I went to work for Holland County Council at Boston. I got a job there. And then from there moved to the Lindsey County Council at Lincoln and then to East Lindsey from there. So I had a few trips round Lincolnshire but never moved out.
AH: And was that doing planning all the time?
DB: Yes, apart from rebuilding the airfields I was in planning. I went back to planning from there and started qualifying again and managed to qualify as a planner when I was at Lincoln and that stood me in good stead for a job at East Lindsey and I became the Assistant Director of Planning there. And I had that for nineteen years before I retired and then I worked for the best part of three years, just two days a week, at Chattertons the solicitors in town here, as a consultant for them. They wanted me, they’d been after me for a long time, ‘cause I knew them very well. So I had two days a week working for them and then I decided it was time I did retire.
AH: And when did you move to Horncastle?
DB: 1969. Had this house built and the builder was next door at another house. He lived in there and I built next door to him. And my son was five. He was five on the one day and we moved here the next day and he started school the next week in Horncastle. We’d arranged that, like, and the school at that time was a private school at the bottom of the hill and it was er ‒, my wife at that time, worked for Bushes. And her offices were across the road, of course, so she could see him in school and out of school he used to come across the road to her and be in the office with her until she came home.
AH: Did you have any other children?
DB: No, just the one boy. No others arrived. Just the one. That’s him and his wife at the bottom there.
AH: That’s nice.
DB: They were going to some function there.
AH: Well, is there anything else you’d like to say?
DB: No, I don’t think there is at the moment. But if you can think of any other questions you want to ask, yeah, I’m quite happy to answer them or I’ll try to give some indication of what happened.
AH: Did you have air raid shelters?
DB: We didn’t have an air raid shelter, no, but people did have them. But we used to go under the stairs, in a cupboard under the stairs, go into that when there was an air road on, if it was bad. Other times we’d get under the bed. But a lot of people had Anderson shelters in their gardens or Morrison shelters, which they’d have in the house ‘cause they were a steel frame shelter that you could have in your ‒ and you could sleep in them or on them. A lot of people slept on them, put mattresses on them. If there was a raid you went underneath.
AH: And what about rationing? Do you remember rationing?
DB: Oh yeah, things were rationed. Like, we never saw oranges or bananas or that sort of thing throughout the war. They were just disappeared. I worked from being thirteen to going to work at sixteen. I worked in the local butchers and I used to deliver rationed meat, it was all rationing at the time, and I used to bike round the area with a proper butcher’s basket on the front and a tray and I used to take the meat to the houses but it was cut up and rationed, cut up into sizes, certain sizes. Some things weren’t rationed. Sausages weren’t rationed but, of course, they hadn’t got a lot of pork and they used to put any scrap of meat they got anywhere went into sausages. And corned beef came to the butcher’s shops in very large tins in those days. I think they were ten shillings a tin, or something like that, and some of that used to go in sausages. It wasn’t rationed either but I’ve cut those up, cut big tins of corned beef up, to make sausages but you made do and it was amazing what you could do. And my mother was an excellent cook, fortunately, and she could make a meal out of nothing, basically. She could make a meat pie, or fish pie out of a tin of salmon you know, if you could get salmon. I know the only salmon you could usually get was grade three, which was the poorest of the salmon, and I remember on one occasion my grandfather was staying with us and he was taken ill with food poisoning afterwards. It didn’t affect anybody else but just he got it and unfortunately that was my mother’s father. Unfortunately his wife died, my grandmother died during the war. They kept the pub at Stickford and then he kept the pub for a year and had a housekeeper to look after things for him but then he packed it up and retired and he lived amongst the family and he used to come to us for so long and one of my aunties and uncles for so long, stop at all of them.
AH: What was he like?
DB: A little tubby fella [laughs], a real publican, and he worked originally for Salby, Sons and Winch, which was a brewery in Alford and then he got the pub at Stickford. It was one of their pubs and he did that. And he had a pony and trap at one time and he used to do a bit of carrying around the area but his horse would never pass a pub, it stopped at every one [laughs]. He was quite a character. He used to weigh, oh, fifteen or sixteen stone and he was only about five foot six at the most. He was a little barrel.
AH: And what was his pub called?
DB: The Globe at Stickford. It’s not a pub any longer. It was taken over as a pub after he’d retired out of it. Other people had it and somebody called Burton took it first, and then one of the Catchpoles took it I think after that, but it packed up being a pub many years back now. It’s just a house. But one of my uncle’s, my mother’s brothers, he had a garage across the road and there’s still a garage there but it’s not the garage that my uncle had. It’s totally changed and the original house that they lived in, which was a little shop and post office as well, it’s all gone and different houses there now. But I did meet one of my cousins from there last week. He lives at Woodhall. But my grandfather used to come and he’d bring his bike with him and he used to bike round the area. But we kept pigs in the war time. My father rented a sty just at the end of the road. And there was about five or six sties in there and he rented one of them and we kept pigs, so we’d always got some bacon or ham or something uncut during the year, and most people did that who could do. It was a way of life. I used to like it when they used to kill the pig ‘cause I was very fortunate that I could taste sausage meat before it was cooked and tell you if it needed more salt or pepper or sage or whatever was wanted in it. I could taste it and I used to go round all our friends that kept pigs as well when they were killing them and putting them all away and be tasting their sausage meat [laughs]. Before that, oh, they always used to test it as well. They used to put some in the oven and cook it a bit and they would taste it cooked but I could taste it raw.
AH: How would you realise that?
DB: Just by tasting it I think and I liked it. But as a teenager I was a good hand.
AH: And did you grow vegetables?
DB: Yes, we had a vegetable garden there and a little lawn and just a vegetable plot and we had fruit trees at the bottom of it and next door to us there was a house. It was a semi-detached house in Alford we had. A police sergeant lived in that side and we lived in this one and on the other side was a new house that had just been built, was pre-war, and they were builders in Alford. Two brothers had a building business there. One of his grandsons or one of his brother’s grandsons still runs it. Woods the Builders in Alford. It’s still there and behind them there’s a big orchard and everything and the man who lived beyond that side, in the next house, his garden come right round and took all that in. He had about half an acre of garden and chickens and everything, and he had one, a James Grieves apple tree in there, which they are one of the earliest eating apple trees. And all the fallen ones he used to push through the hedge for my brother and myself. These were the gifts we used to take [slight laugh].
AH: What was your address in Alford?
DB: 16 Chauntry Road. The house we lived in at Sutton on Sea just before we, not the one just before we left, the one before that was St Clements Lodge and it’s still St Clement’s Lodge ‘cause I passed it not all that long ago, and it’s been painted white outside. But when I was at the planning office at East Lindsey we had a planning application to do some alterations in that house so I said’ I’m doing a survey at that one’ and I went down and knocked on the front door and this lady came and I explained who I was from the planning office and I said ‘Can I have a look and see what you want to do but’ I said ‘actually I’m here just being blooming nosy’. She said ‘Why?’ ’Because’ I said ‘I used to live in here until I was about eight years old and wondered what it was like now’. I went in. The staircase was exactly the same with the same cubby-hole, mahogany coloured. I went in the front room. The fireplace was the same fire place. It was a Victorian fireplace with tiles down the side. It was just as I remembered it and I went through into the back room. It was ‒ I think it had got new windows and that in it. But the others hadn’t and then the kitchen, that’s right, they were rebuilding the kitchen area ‘cause it was built on the back. And then I said ‘can I have a look upstairs as well?’ and she said ‘Yes, of course, yeah’ and I went upstairs and the front bedrooms were the same, three front bedrooms it had got, that’s right, and a back bedroom. And on the way through to the corridor to the back bedroom was a little alcove. Well, my father had a bed made for that for my brother to sleep in. It was smaller than a full size single bed but it was big enough for a ten year old boy and he had a bed made to fit in that alcove. I said ‘Here then now’ ‘cause it was a door. She said ‘That’s the toilet in there’. I said ‘Our toilet was across the yard’ [laughs]. We did have a flush toilet but it was across the yard in the house next door basically. Well, next door was a shop. It was in one of their outbuildings but that was our toilet and I think the reason for that was, like, our house belonged to part of the family that was next door, it belonged to the wife’s parents I think, down there. They were a well-respected local family at Sutton on Sea, the Wileymans, and Cass[?], she lived next door. She was married to Mr Johnson and they had the shop next door to us. I used to go round as a little boy and sit in there, helping making orders up and that, and I used to help them make ice cream in the outbuilding at the back. They had an ice cream maker that you wound. Nowadays you have the electric to go round but you had to wind it, put ice in it, pour the liquid in, wind it round until it made the ice cream and take it out again, put it in the shop and sell it. And you could buy an ice cream for a ha’penny , the old ha’penny.
AH: Did they flavour it or was it vanilla?
DB: It was all vanilla. All vanilla ice cream. You didn’t have any flavoured in those days, not like they do now with about twenty-five different flavours.
AH: And in what road is St Clements Lodge? Where’s St Clement’s Lodge?
DB: St Clement’ Lodge? In Church Lane, Sutton on Sea. It was, if you go to Sutton on Sea, turn right, you come down the high street, turn right at the end of it virtually, there’s a car park there, you turn right down York road and then follow it through, past the playing fields. The road actually now goes round and you go off there and you go round there to the end, it turns right very sharply, and we were about the third house. There was a house on the corner, then there was a shop, and we were next door to that. But as you turn off down that road past the playing fields the first house there is made partly of railway carriages, two downstairs and two up. In the middle, downstairs, that was their lounge. Upstairs, each bedroom was a compartment from the railway carriage. Some of my friends used to live there as a boy and he had a model railway set, big enough to go right round the house, but in those days, of course, you had no electricity, no electric railways, they were all mechanic. You had to wind them up so you had to have someone at the far end to wind it up again to send it back. And then he got very modern. He got one that worked with steam and methylated spirit and it would go right round on one filling. But that’s been sold now. I don’t know who lives there now. But Frank, he kept it for a long time and I saw only a few years ago Frank Unwin died and it was sold. But just past there, there’s two more bungalows that had just two railway carriages downstairs, one’s got a pointed roof and one had a tin roof going over. But they were there, they were built, I think, in the 1920s or something like that. But quite unique.
AH: And that’s near Church Lane?
DB: Yeah, I think, is it Furling Lane, they call that bit of it? It goes from – you go down the high street, turn into York Road and go straight on down behind the sand hills, and there’s a playing field out on your right hand side, and then the first lot of bungalows, there’s a little group, you see a group of bungalows. I think it’s called Surfside, or something like that, and that one’s built on what used to be a pond. I remember sliding on that as a boy. Now it’s a group of bungalows. I hope they’re built on rafts or something or something to make them safe. But as I say, you keep on behind the sand hills, right at the back. There’s some interesting little places in Sutton on Sea when you go round. In the centre of Sutton on Sea there’s a car park in the middle there. Well, on that used to be, when we were boys, was some big wooden sheds and they belonged to a Mr Sheardown the local second hand furniture dealer. And they were full of furniture (hello, Tracey wants me ‒). But when we actually flitted in Sutton on Sea pre-war days (oh sorry, beginning of war time ‘cause it was October we flitted) we actually flitted in a horse and dray and the person who flitted us was the man who run the donkeys on Sutton on Sea, Harry Bucknall, and I earned my first money ever leading donkeys on the beach at Sutton on sea when I was seven years old. I got about sixpence for the week I think, something like that, which I thought was marvellous. I used to go down in the morning and fetch the donkeys up from the field to his house where he had the stables for them, get them saddled up and all that, take them to the beach, and have them out on the beach, and they’d be there three or four hours, and take them back, and take all the gear off, and take the donkeys down the field again [laughs].
AH: That’s very young.
DB: Yeah. And when I took my son, when he was, what would he be? About three, no more than that, I took him down to the beach for a ride on the donkeys and it was the still the same man running the donkeys, Harry Bucknall, and he looked at me and said ‘I took you to be born!’ He actually took my mother to Louth Hospital. He had a taxi business as well as his donkeys and he took my mother to hospital in his taxi when I was born. And he said ‘You’d better give him a free ride’, that’s my lad, he got a free ride on the donkeys (laughs). So it’s, it’s a small world you know when you go round. Like, I came to work in Louth in 1948 and lived down River Head in the little council houses down there. I lodged in number two, I think it was. I can’t remember the numbers now but it was the second one along, I know that, and the people I lodged with, the man was the ‒ he looked after all the warehouses down there, down River Head. They were all in the one family, one big ownership of the Jacksons, and he worked for the Jacksons and looked after all those, ‘cause in those days they were all full of corn and all that sort of thing. They’re all changed into something different now, those that are left. One of them used to be a restaurant. I don’t know if it still is. It was down Thames Street that was. I have an idea they might have had a fire there at one time but I can’t remember. And further along there, originally, there was the gas works. They became Ludermeaties [?]. ‘Cause Ludermeaties[?] were in Eve Street at one time, off James Street, and they outgrew that business and moved into the gas works down Thames Street. I know a lot of history of these places. I’ve been around too long.
Ah: Well, I think that’s all. Thank you very much.
DB: No problem. Do you want me to sign that, do you?
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ABrewsterDG160617
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Interview with David Brewster
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eng
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01:31:23 audio recording
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Anna Hoyles
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2016-06-17
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David Brewster grew up in Alford, and has memories of watching the Luftwaffe bombing convoys at sea, a dog fight and watching bombers take off from RAF Strubby and RAF East Kirkby.
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Horncastle
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Christine Kavanagh
Beaufighter
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
He 111
home front
incendiary device
Lancaster
memorial
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Strubby
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1053/11431/AOttawayM161121.2.mp3
d38c11a1b8b0125239c232cec6f51ab0
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Ottaway, Margaret
M Ottaway
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An oral history interview with Margaret Ottaway MBE (b. 1933).
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-11-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Ottaway, M
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AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Margaret Ottaway. The interview is taking place at Ms. Ottaway’s house in Louth, Lincolnshire, on the 21st November 2016. Can you tell me a bit about your childhood?
MO: I can. My mother and father were married before the First World War and they both grew up in Grimsby, Cleethorpes area and my father was one of twelve, and very poor and my mother was one of three and I don’t know why they came to Louth but they came to Louth, well, before I was born and before my late brother was born. But I think there were seven children and I am the sixth of seven. They lost two little boys, one when he was three, I think it was, and the other was three months and of course in those days there was no family allowance or help and of course the standard of the food was very poor and especially in a dock town and so my parents had that to cope with and I don’t know how they coped with it really, they came to Louth and then there was my brother who was seven years older than me, my sister was ten years older than me and I had a brother who was five years older than me and then we had a little sister, Prue, I don’t know when, a long, long time ago now we found out that she was Down syndrome and you can look at the photograph and see she was and we came to live in Louth and they lived in several houses before we lived on the top of Grimsby Road and the A16 as it was and when I was a little girl was a semi-detached house and of course there was not the population and there wasn’t the traffic and there weren’t the dangers even though it was wartime, as a child, you know, and I was always, had this outgoing attitude, I must have had because I can remember going into nearly all the houses both sides of the road, my younger sister didn’t come with me very often but she did come to some of the houses and you know, when you are a child, if you have a community, you are very cherished and I’ve realised that obviously more as I got older cause I love children and I’ve always loved children but anyway, oh, I know my father was in the army although because of his health he actually was registered in the army for a very short time I have some information about that and my mother was, worked in the Toc H in Louth and there were three houses and my maternal grandma who lived in Cleethorpes and was killed with my mum eventually, she spent a lot of time in our house because there was always sowing jobs to do and she used to make dresses for us and all that sort of thing, so my mother didn’t work and we always had a cleaning lady, some lovely cleaning ladies and one is still alive now and we had a very happy childhood from what I can remember, I know my brother who was five years older than me, he was always aggravating me and my older brother that by that time he’d gone into the RAF and in 1941 he was in [unclear] down in Bedfordshire but they were always at me, like big brothers are but I think it’s been a really good training because then of course my father started with a, in the 1920s with one lorry which was solid tyres which of course I’m drawing off and I got a photograph of, that’s a thing I must say, it’s staggering, we all know when photography started, well, I don’t know the exact year, but you know, it’s all these photographs, they are so important, and it’s alright having things on gadgets like computers but they can be wiped off and the hard copies that I am about to show you, it’s amazing, anyway my father started with one lorry and by the time I was around, there were about thirty, which is a photograph over there, and so he had thirty drivers and his business yard at the time was down in what is now Church Street, opposite the bus station but it was called Maiden Road and it was, I can see it now, because as a child, you know, you did lots of exciting things, really, like children do today but a totally different scale. But we had, always had this cleaning lady, the one we had at the time, she had brothers and they either had a small holding across the road, at the top of Grimsby Road, or they were, her father was a farm worker, of course we had a big farm at the back of us, relatively big not like today, called Howard’s, Mr and Ms, Howard and then we had Fanthorpe Lane, which is still there, but it’s dissected by the bypass and I used to go down there to take Sunday papers to this family called [unclear] and this family is been established a long while and people have said to me, in some of the things I’ve done in my life, the stability of families in an area like this does contribute to the community spirit that people that are strangers say, there is, I know there’s a community spirit but they feel it when they come in, so I’m very lucky because I have all sorts of proof about what happened to me because I didn’t know what happened to me except that my godparents were from King’s Lynn and they used to come and stay, we only had three bedrooms and we had, you know, Len, Darcy, John, Margret and Mary and mum and dad, so where we all slept I don’t know, we also had an air raid shelter, cause my father having thirty lorries was a very wealthy man for the time and but the family had a phone call from my auntie in Grimsby to say they were coming over for tea on Sunday afternoon, because one of her brother-in-law’s got a gallon of petrol from the army, that was a fatal thing to do, I can tell you, so they came from Grimsby and there was my auntie Violet, my uncle Walt, Genie, who was five as far as I know, and my uncle’s brother and his wife, they came in this, in the car and parked outside and they stopped for tea, usually one of my sister’s best friends used to come up to the house to keep me, to see my mum as well and my elder brother’s girlfriend used to come, when, if there’s anything on the siren, to keep my mum company and with the children, you see, on this occasion, because they knew the Grimsby family was coming for tea, they didn’t come, so they were all getting ready to get back to Grimsby, according to my late brother, who was in the house and he was upstairs, we were, for whatever reason, downstairs, my sister, my cousin and myself, we’d been put to bed downstairs in the front room, obviously we couldn’t all get into the air raid shelter, but I had no proof of why we didn’t go in but I assume it’s because of too many and as soon as the siren went, my father got his uniform on as a special constable and together with another lady called Ivy Platt who was very, very deaf and who was, the Platt family were big friends with my father’s, even when I was a little girl of four, [unclear] the photograph there and I don’t know how long they’d been friends but I think Ms Platt’s husband probably got into some financial difficulties, he was a grocer in Louth just up the road from where we are now and my sister Dorothy was an air raid warden at seventeen so they went down into the town, they took Ivy to her mum’s, Ms Platt and then dad went on duty and my sister went on duty with the air raid wardens cause they had different areas that they did, I mean, I don’t know cause I never asked her you see, you don’t ask [unclear] and I have all the records and just exactly what the gentlemen wrote Mr [unclear] that roughly it gives the time, it’s the official document, give the time, two screaming bombs were dropped on Louth at the top, at Grimsby Road, we don’t know exactly where but later found out it had dropped on a house and people were killed and injured, we later found out, seven were injured, seven were killed in that incident, we later found out that it was A W Jaines, Arthur Jaines, a special constable, it landed at his house so he’s lost with his daughter who was an air raid warden, fellow air raid warden, they lost seven of their kin and the seventh one was actually the lady who was visiting her daughter next door. And all I can remember is being aware that I was under rubble, trapped in rubble and that’s all I was aware of, you know, then I heard a drill and then I remember very little about being actually rescued and then the next thing I remember is being in one of the either the Toc H houses or the red cross places and you know those little beakers they used to drink out of, with the little spouts, I’ve got an example upstairs. Well, I can remember being offered that and a seven year old, as I say, I must emphasize this, you weren’t like you are today, are today, and I remember the atmosphere in that place, and there was someone brought in on the stretcher, now I obviously don’t know and I’ve never investigated it if it would be one of our family because of course it’s not far from the top of Grimsby Road to the hospital and then, so I don’t know about that, I do know that my brother who died last year, John, who was thirteen, I do know that he went somehow, my father wasn’t allowed to go up to Grimsby Road, which he wanted to do, and obviously my sister would be with him, and they went to Ms Platt’s because Connie was a red cross nurse although she was only seventeen and she was engaged to a police officer and so their home became a sort of centre for my dad and my sister and they had one of those metal shelters under their table cause they lived behind the shop and the shop, you know, is packed with things and they have this metal table and my, Ivy was also under the table and I have a tape where my Ms Connie who became my step aunt, she recorded it with her son cause I kept saying to her, why don’t you write it down? Cause I think, because she was seventeen, and far more aware, she couldn’t face writing it down, so her son, who’s, I think he’s retired now, but he has two chairs at the university, I think one was Cardiff, and I’ve been meaning to speak to him about it really, but anyway, so I also remember, going to my, being taken, I don’t know who took me but to my uncle’s house on Brackenborough Road, just near the post office on Brackenborough because my, a lot of my cousins of my generation have all died and with my father being one of twelve, some of the family came here, four of them came to live here because my father was here, and the others stayed in Grimsby so we’ve like two families. And my cousin who died several years ago now, she often used to tease me, she said, when you came that night, she said, it was about midnight I think, and you got into my bed and it was just like sleeping in a bed where you’ve been eating biscuits, that’ll be of ruttle, wasn’t it? And she said, I remember when you went to the lavatory, it was all lino in those days, the grit fell out of your trousers and she used to tease me about that but I, the next day I went to live at [unclear], uhm, I don’t remember being taken there, I think I must have been in shock, you know, and I think I was traumatised and people have said different things but I went to live with this family called John and Ethel Clark and they had a daughter, Beryl, who was a bit older than me and a son called Jim who was a bit younger and the [unclear] school I went to it has a church and it has a big house and we were in the big house, her mum and dad lived there and John Clark’s younger brother Henry lived there and they had cows of course and gas man and the village at the time had a school, a church, and you used to have and walk up cause it was very deep in the Wolds you’d have to walk up, and there’s a museum out there now, with farm machinery and a smith’s family lived there and a railway line runs through there and I can remember, I never seem to be unhappy, I don’t remember being unhappy there, Jim used to tease us a bit but I those days they used to raise money for the prisoner of war parcels and there was a big barn of course and had garden [unclear] and things like that and we went to church [phone rings]
AH: I just switch off.
MO: We always used to walk up to catch the bus at the top cause there’s several [unclear] you know, they’re all the same but if you look at a map you will see from Louth you can go several ways up to the Bluestone Heath Road, which is one of the longest roads, from, you can go from the Lincoln Road right through to the, if you were going to Alford and Skegness and we used to stand at the top there and it was chalk, you know, and it was freezing cold and things like that and then we used to go and I was sent by Ms Clark, bless her little heart, she was a very, very old fashioned lady and it was one of the best things she could have done for me, because I went in the, what they called the kinder garden which, if you walked down Schoolhouse Lane, and facing you is Suffolk House and it says, I think it’s three or even four stories high and then there’s the cellar, and that was where I went to school and I never achieved anything in exams or anything like but I did use to, but it obviously affected me and my teacher, who was a, taught scriptures as we called it and she became the first major of Louth, she would, she’d died unfortunately, her partner, lady partner, she knew me as the major of Louth, but it was amazing really what influence that school has been and still is because I’m still involved with it now all these years on. Anyway, I had a really happy time there, I used to go on the back with the big carthorse and the, you know, the all sorts of different carts on, and we used to, I used to go with Henry, I don’t know how Henry would be now, must ask his son cause his son’s living in Louth now, and I used to go and take the food with him and I was with them from September about the 9th until after Christmas because my dad, of course there was no house left, and we went to, dad lived at Ms Platt’s I think, just along the road here, and my sister, and we were all scattered really, but I don’t ever remember anybody saying to me, I remember one day when I was in the car with Mr Clark, he always had lovely cars and Mrs Clark was very old fashioned really and he was a bit of a lad I’ll have to say [unclear] my dad could have been as well, as most dads are, although not yours of course, and I don’t know why but I just feel that he might have, I might have been with him when the funeral was on cause obviously I wasn’t involved in that and I never asked my brother whether he was but it’ll be, I’ve got the list of the funeral of mourners and everything so that’s another thing we can, I can look at, but about, be about I think three months and then we moved up into a house just opposite the catholic church, in Upgate, they are very big houses those, and because my father had all these workmen, he had one chap called Sid Day, and Sid could do anything, he was actually like the yardman for my dad and his wife, they lived down in Upgate, they’ve widened the road now, [unclear] flow, you go up, there’s no garden and you go up the side of the house and it was all, there was no car pits or anything and it was like a room, but it wasn’t a room, it was more like a big shed but it was within the house, you see, and then you’d go into the kitchen, and then there was a front room which we hardly ever used and she had a big family and there were three girls and four boys I think, and there was a grandma was always there, but they used to babysit me and I used to wander about, you know, a seven year old, I used to go with my dad, seven year old children in my day, you didn’t and if dad happened to be in the Masons Arms, I was allowed in but girls weren’t even allowed in pubs, children, you see, so I’ve had a very different life from any other child at that age and I think that’s why I’ve got so much confidence you see and the other thing is I’m an avid cook and baker, all normal, ordinary stuff, and I can make meringues, I can make lemon meringue but I’m not into this, all this fancy stuff and Mrs Platt had a big kitchen and we all met up in there, cause of course there was a range and it was behind the shop, behind where they weighed all the soutanes and you know, I had a wonderful childhood and lots of love and still do have love from those families, especially my stepfamily and my dad’s friends, you know, four generations on. And not many people can say that, but I do get on people’s noses and I think it’s, my attitude is that bloody Hitler didn’t get me and nobody else did and I had to be tough, I had to be tough, anyway I obviously went to school, I was at Kidgate school but I was very independent and I can remember my, the cousin that I slept with that first night, she had an older sister called Pam and we decided, I should think Pam decided and I was well for it before the bombing that we would cycle to Grimsby and see our granny who lived on [unclear] Road and so, we didn’t tell anybody, and I had a fairy cycle and she would have one a bit bigger and I can remember doing that as if it was yesterday and we stopped at a house for a drink of water as you do, when we arrived at granny Jane’s, she was a very different cup of tea from my other granny, granny Walt, who was killed, we got told off and she rang my dad and we put on the bus and sent back. Now my cousin that I stayed the night with, on the night of the bombing, she actually married a German prisoner of war, which of course upset my father and, but he was a lovely man, much better than the one that Pam married, but I was sent, as I say, to the girls grammar school when I was seven and I went through the school until I was sixteen but I don’t think I got any qualifications, I don’t remember getting any qualifications, and so I left at, well, of course, and years later none of my brothers really encompassed education. Fortunately they’ve had sensible mothers but my father by this time had married Ivy Platt who was a lovely, lovely stepmother, she didn’t have a lot of maternal things with her son but my father was going to be the major when Michael was eighteen months old and so I was, well, I was told that I, cause I loved him anyway, so I looked after Michael so I didn’t go to work and then when the [unclear] was over, I decided I was going to go on work, I decided, I really wanted to be a [unclear] nanny but my father wouldn’t pay, it wasn’t that he couldn’t pay but he wouldn’t pay and probably didn’t want me to go away cause I always have felt for many, many years that I thought my father was protecting me, see, in actual fact, I’ve realized I’m the one that supports everybody else, I’m the tough one. And because I was always with my father and he died when I was twenty four of cancer but he was a very kind man, he was beneficiary to this little hospital, Crowtree Lane hospital, and St Margret’s children home, children’s home and with a group of the business men of the town, you know, they all and of course the war effort, Louth was an amazing place for raising money, you know, and all the railings were cut down and there was concerts in the town hall and it was, you know, I think that’s why I am like I am because there was so many good influences around, had plenty of bad ones but I’m four and [unclear] [laughs] but it was, it was very hard because I wanted to get a job and I went to the international stalls and made an arrangement to see the manager and my father found out and, oh, he was crossed, he was furious, you are not going to work behind a shop counter! If only he knew the things I’ve done to earn money since he died [laughs]. Anyway, I got a job at the Louth district hospital and, as receptionist, and it was five pounds an hour for forty eight hours and we lived at the time back up Grimsby road in a different house and when Michael was born, we actually lived at the house which is called Mount St Mary’s at the bottom of Grimsby Road where you go over the river lodge and where the floods came down in the twenties and then in 2007 and it’s next to the old cemetery and we lived there and then my father’s insurance man didn’t tell the whole truth about licencing and my father had to go to the high court in London, cause I was not really aware of all this, and he was fined fifteen thousand pounds and so he had to sell the house where Michael was born and we went up to Grimsby Road, so but, you know, my father had a rough time and then in the nineteen late forties, early fifties, the Labour government nationalized all [unclear] so, you know, we had no choice, and it broke his heart, broke his heart it did, cause you know, it was his baby, he did actually start another business for a short time but it wasn’t long, he died when he was sixty two. So that takes me as far as me getting married. I don’t know whether I’m telling you what you want to know or if you want to see some of the photographs of the bombing.
AH: I do in a bit but if you carry on.
MO: Right. Well, my late husband was a watch repairer and he used to park his car near the mount near the [unclear] saw him on a regular basis, you see, and so we started to go out a bit cause in those days you weren’t, you didn’t walk in and say to your parents, oh well, so and so has invited me out so I am going, there’s none of that, and so we used to go very regularly to Grimsby to the cinema or Cleethorpes and then to the lovely hotel called Kingsway for afternoon tea and believe you me, if you ever get a young man like that, enjoy it, because if you get married to him, it’ll all stop [laughs] but he was a gentleman, oh, he really, really was, he was often late, he was very casual about his business and at that time he’d been in the RAF, it never occurred to me that he was a lot older than me, he was actually twenty years older than me and he lived with his mother, his widowed mother in Alford, but he also had through his uncle a huge interest, which he was aware of, when they went fishing in a boat up where Bempton Cliffs is, in that area, and he was taken by all the birds and his uncle was interested mildly but anyway he had been in the RAF conscripted, he could have stayed at home and looked after the shop that they had in his, when his father died, this was before I knew him and he decided he didn’t want to do the shop, he was never interested in being a jeweller in a watch repairer but he’d done the training, eight years he was training at Lincoln at Mannsell’s and I have a letter from his father telling him really to pull his finger out and anyway he, at that time he was friendly with people obviously in Alford and they were starting the Gibraltar Point Nature Reserve and he is one of the people that started it, Charles Lenton Ottaway and a lot of the memorabilia that they sent down there after my husband died of course was washed away in the floods, I’ve never been back but we got engaged down there and he was a gentleman of the top order, he really was and we had a lovely wedding and then, as I say, we were living with his mum, he had a sister who didn’t like me apparently, there’s a surprise but I was shocked the letters she wrote to me four years after my husband had died and I looked after her mum for twenty five years, not all the time, but you know, and she was in a nursing home for ten and died when she was ninety six. You get lots of things like that, you know, you do your best and then I think my sister in law never got over the loss of the father when she was eight, it was very bitter and I don’t, I know that when I was twenty two I remember when we had, we moved from here cause we needed another bedroom but kept the shop and I remember thinking, what sort of woman do I want to be? And I decided that I didn’t want to be one that was a bit of a like [unclear] floozy, I wanted to be a proper mother and wife and cook and do and the lady across the road that, her husband used to be a partner of Eve & Ranshaw’s she, I’d known her all my life cause my sister went there to work when she was fourteen I think and if the children were poorly, she would come across and or if she was poorly needed some shopping I would do it and that’s who really, that sort of person is what I wanted to be and I’m not a warrior and I’ve learned over the years that you have to accept some things that happen to you and you don’t have to respond to people unkind to you, you feel sorry for them, I have a huge faith, I am grateful that I married my husband because he brought intellect, no common sense, I’ve got the common sense and no, hadn’t done the intellect got a bit now with the years and a lovely community with my mum and dad and the families that have been so lovely to me and still are, so that’s on the school. The school, my faith, my husband and my family and community and those are the four things that have stood me in good stead really and I am still very motivated, you know, I like to know, [unclear] my finger on the pulse, I get muddled [laughs], I went to put the milk, [unclear] with the milk just this afternoon, I thought you silly woman, you know, you, I was just tiding up I think and I put it in the cupboard, that’s right, where I bought the new porridge to put it [laughs], yes, but the extraordinary thing about the bombs dropping, there were two bombs dropped in February, February the 19th, at about four o’clock in the afternoon, 1941, and they were aimed at the railway station and I really just started to research the names on the memorial although I knew some of them, over the years I’ve known some of them, and the bombs seemed to roll, or one of them did, so it damaged the railway station and it killed a boy who was a grammar school boy and his father was a vicar, and when you walk down Eastgate, past Morrison’s, you come to, you can just see some of the railway bridge and he lived, they lived on, in a smooth brick house which is now for adults with learning difficulties and that’s, I could tell you, I don’t know if it’s [unclear] but the name is still the same and he and his friend had come home from the grammar school and he was a messenger boy, on a bike he used to that and he, his mother sent his friend home who lived across the road, he was from Grimsby really but their family had been evacuated from Grimsby to Louth and his father was a major in the army and he was under the kitchen sink. Now I think the kitchen sink would be like one I got out there now, an oblong of thick porcelain I’ll call it, you know, not, and he was killed and he was sixteen, another lady, there were two or three names on the war memorial where people were injured elsewhere and then died in Louth hospital, that’s why [unclear] war memorial. It’s all very fascinating, it’s all in paperwork I have but it was a obviously it’s, it doesn’t leave you and because of the way my life has gone and it’s now, you know, there’s lots of lovely people, I mean, this picture here, his name is Drewery who has hedgehog care and her daughter is Swing Out Sister, the lead singer in Swing Out Sister and she’s been a jazz singer and she, when I became the major, which was a huge honour, she send me a card and said that she liked and tried to paint a portrait, could I send her a picture of the, of me in the roads with a nice expression. And it’s on hardboard [laughs] and she brought it in one day, to see if I liked, if I was alright, just, if you don’t like it, you know, just put your plants on it, it’s lovely, I think, and I haven’t really realised because I don’t do things for attention, I really, really don’t but I know and a friend said to me yesterday a lady not, she’s older than me, and of course they still remember they’d been in Louth and she said, you’ve done so much for Louth, and everybody is always telling me that, cross with me now because I don’t ask them to do things for me now, but I didn’t realize I was doing it, you see, I was interfering really, I think it’s an interfering busybody, that’s what I am [laughs]. Yeah, if I was to go out and down the passage and see you off and somebody was mouthing off a lot of language, I’d be shouting, I shout out the window in the middle of the night, they wake me up, you know, I’m not scared of anything but mice, I put my grandchildren, my son thinks it’s hilarious, they really do but I’m so grateful that all these things here, you know, there was an exhibition in March in the museum and without people and then here’s an example, this is a letter, I was just tell you this because nowhere or I think only once have I seen my name mentioned in any of the newspaper accounts, the newspaper accounts they don’t say in Louth, in Lincolnshire, they say an eastern market town and G W Clark actually became my step uncle but at the time he was a nineteen year old police officer, he was engaged to Connie Platt and there was a mix up with bodies and because he was a family friend, which obviously he was because Connie isn’t on there and [unclear] isn’t on there but the little girl that I said was Margaret next to me with more hair than me, her mum is just behind her and she was Connie’s elder sister and Ivy was Connie’s elder sister as well, Connie was the youngest of four girls and two boys but this was sent to Bill although it’s G W Clark, Imperial War Graves, 21st of October 1941, Dear Sir, I have to thank you for returning the forms which was sent to you and for the information contained in your letter of the 15th, a form in respect of the late Ms Ward was sent to you with the other forms but apparently had gone stray I’m enclosing another form and would appreciate it if you would kindly complete it and return it to me. Your assumption, that Roland Hallett’s name will be included in the record of his Majesty’s forces is correct. Well, Roland was the brother of my uncle Walt. And it says, yours faithfully, G W Clark, which is really P C Clark, one of their [unclear], now the tape I’ve got, it’s not all as I have been told, you know, she was only seventeen and she brought this copy of this tape and she sat where you’re sitting, and I think I was sat here and she said, I thought it would be nice if we listened to that together, well, I didn’t want to do that, I really, really didn’t, cause I couldn’t say no, so we had a coffee and after the tape had run, I said to her, Connie, is there mentioned in all the press cuttings I’ve got, about why I survived when Mary and Genie didn’t? We were all in the same, if we weren’t in the bedroom we started, we obviously were very close, so she said to me, do you really want to know? And I said, I do, and of course it wouldn’t be easy for her to tell me she said, well, when Bill was sent, well, he went up there obviously because it is all much more casual then it is now, and I mean the whole, the area, there were a lot of people injured and as I say, Howard’s farm, one bomb dropped in the field just on our hedge and then the other one dropped just outside our back door as our two uncles were getting ready, getting the car revved up and ready to go back to Grimsby and so they took the full force, you see, my auntie Violet, who lost her husband and her daughter, she was trapped in the house and it was, you sort of went in and I think there must have been a sink there but it was arranged like [unclear] and she somehow was blown into the fireplace and a police officer was given an award, he’s only been dead a few years now, and he got a commendation for rescuing us, he was very seriously injured, so she said, do you really want to know? I said, yes, so she said, well, they got Genie out and Mary out and they were going to get, and they got to you and they thought you were dead as well and they protected me so that was a bit hard, really. But if it hadn’t been for Bill being there, and you see, because Mary’s name began with M, but on one of the paper cuttings it does say Margaret, but it’s only one. But so what you just have to think that you, I’m driven, I’m absolutely driven, I won’t say I hate being old because, I mean, that’s something that we all get to be, but I hate it that I can’t do and interfere [laughs], some of my fellow counsellors which I drop off the perch [laughs], they’ve had it [laughs], that’s where the, this house wasn’t there then, there was another bungalow and that’s, they were very seriously injured in there and this is the rebuild, and it’s not 32 now, it is a different number, but that was the site and I’m not quite sure what to do about some of these because, was trying to find the house, and that’s the back of the house
AH: Oh Gosh!
MO: And this is not our house, that’ the neighbours, and if you look, this picture here is a bigger one, if you look at these, the window here and our house is here, and this would have been taken down, our house, our remains would have been taken down because it wouldn’t be safe.
AH: No.
MO: Because my brother was upstairs in all this and so, it wasn’t quite as flattened as that, but that shows you, doesn’t it?
AH: This is completely gone.
MO: And my brother, when he went to, cause Connie was a very regular visitor, I think she got a red cross uniform on, went round to the red cross, that’s right, and John was there and so on the recording, I’ll lend you the recording, I’m a bit loathed to do it but you’ll look after it, won’t you?
AH: Yeah.
MO: And it’s about half an hour long and it’s very moving, it’s not exactly as I‘ve been told but Connie was very, very fond of my mum and when my dad married Ivy and then Ivy died, she, I was fifty, nearly fifty when Ivy died, and people loved to tell you, but of course your father was carrying on with Ivy, I’m not saying that he was, cause I’ve said already, my dad was quite, cause Ivy couldn’t hear, she was stone deaf and she couldn’t get a job very easily so dad let her work at the office and eventually when she married dad, she had the first, really, the first hearing aid in the town and it was, if you have a hand bag that’s like that, you know, one of those old fashioned sort of handbags and the batteries were in there and hearing aids were sort of very, very rare, by the time she, Amplifops it was called, by the time she died, she had these little hearing aids, but I mean she was always with us, always, and she wasn’t , you know, she wasn’t like some of these, you know, when we get themselves dressed up now, cause the young women got themselves dressed up with all the heavy lipstick, so that’s come back, hasn’t it? But the whole family, and I am still in touch with my cousin Margaret and my cousin Anthony, his mum and dad were in the RAF at the time, and I met him and his wife in Lincoln for lunch not long time ago, yeah, so it’s been lovely, but I’ll, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll let you take the tape, now I’ll just show you this, and you’ll see on here, these are the ones that were killed and these are the ones that were injured and some of them, this is all on the night of the September the 7th, you see, it’s amazing, I knew this chap, this is Steven, he was a police superintendent I think,
AH: And this, what’s this? Were they aiming at Louth, do you know?
MO: No, that’s the next piece of, oh, here is one, no incident in area d, that we all did a quick dive for the floor as two bombs streamed down over the town, we could not make out where they had fallen at the time but found later that they had dropped on the Grimsby road, regret seven people were killed and others seriously injured, we express our deepest sympathy to A W Jaines special and D Jaines fellow warden in their bereavement, six members of the family were killed, now there’s
AH: You read that, sorry.
MO: My uncle Walt, he was my, he became my uncle Walt, come in!
AH: Just put on pause.
US: Hi!
MO: When, I’ve been so lucky to get all these cuttings from people and this is a copy of the cutting I got, I think from my auntie Connie, a sympathetic note, I find it difficult to express here in these simple notes the sympathy we all are feeling today for Mr A W Jaines and his family in the tragic loss they have sustained. Ms Jaines was a canteen leader in the second talvert house, she gave herself on sparing [unclear] for this work, and her cheerfulness was an inspiration to us all, it was only three days ago that I was with her at the second house and it is difficult to believe she has passed on. She gave her time to us knowing that other mothers were doing the same for her son who was serving, to all who are bereaved and to the sick and sorry I send these lines hoping they might be of some help in the difficult days in which they are passing. At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. And I put, added, one died on the September the 7th 1941. And this tribute was written on the 10th of September 1941. Now, to not have a [unclear], and know, because everybody’s told me, and I mean, the cleaning ladies we had, they’ve all said the same thing, and the funny thing is, the most amazing thing to me and I must give her a ring because I haven’t heard from her, when my mum and dad’s friend was Mrs Whitfield, the one on the left there, holding a little boy, when our mother was killed, my sister Dorothy obviously, well, through dad as well I suppose, used to keep in touch with her, and of course when Dorothy died, I took it up and Mrs Whitfield’s now died so I’m in touch with one of her girls, it’s on that photograph, we’ve been corresponding as families all these years, and her father used to work for Vickers, Vickers aircraft in Newcastle and I thought he was in the army but he wasn’t and this is only coming out recently cause one of her sisters, she was called Evelyn and I’m in touch with her, one of her sisters is called Daphne and my daughter, Linda, was named after Linda Lorden Smith, very elderly lady who used to live in Upgate, and my husband used to do her clocks for her and everything and so when we had Linda, I said, why don’t we call her Linda? Well, Linda’s daughter, Linda Lorden’s daughter died and I remember, Mrs Lorden’s was saying to me that the girl, the lady that used to help her, named one of her daughters after Daphne, Daphne was in her nineties, so I was saying to Evelyn on the phone, I said, cause they’ve bene to see me and her mum must have been born round her but I haven’t quite found out her maiden name, and she came, they came, two of the girls came and stayed in a B&B and went visiting people that they were connected to down on the coast but I never twigged that she’d worked for my mother and it was only a matter of two, three months ago, I said something about, cause her surname, her maiden name is Whitfield, and so she said, my mother used to work for somebody called Jaines, cause she hadn’t twigged either that that was my name [laughs], I said, you’re joking, she said, oh no, and you see, we’ve always sort of picked a lot up as we went along, she went to work for a lady, this Mrs Whitfield, went to work for a lady before she was married, down on the coast and she was a maiden lady and she had two little girls and it was Ms Measures that she worked for and we, Evelyn doesn’t know anything about Ms Measures, so I’m trying to research Ms Measures cause she was horrible to their mum and that’s all come through I think through my sister to me, cause I can’t remember where I’ve heard that, but I wouldn’t make that up and so my mum and Evelyn said that this lady wasn’t very nice to her mum and so that’s why she was working for my mum. And so that tells you a lot, doesn’t it? Now you see, I don’t think for one minute, my, Ivy’s son, Michael will know all about that, he knows all about dad cause he bores everybody to death with it, cause dad was a very, very successful man for his days but I met him the other day, I was with a couple, Michael that is and he just come out of the solicitors, but I was walking arm in arm cause it’s going up a sloop right Rosemary Lane, it’s not much and I, we are only acquaintances really but we are friends if you know what I mean, and then Michael came out the office, he didn’t look down, he just, so I said [unclear] and he turned round and he came back, he never does that, and said, these are friends of mine, that spent half the time in France and half here, so he says, l alright, I said, this is my brother, he says, hallo, he said, I don’t suppose you knew that dad walked down here and walked into the wall cause it’s an adjacent, there’s as wall that sticks out and then you go down a bit and then there’s another wall and he was a special and he had glasses you see and he liked his whiskey and so I said, no, I don’t think I did know that, oh alright and then off he went [laughs], our niece who lives opposite the Brown Cow, where Michael drinks now with his partner, she said, she came in on Saturday and she said, he never says anything, when I walk to the pub which, they don’t go in as much as Michael, he says something to her about dad every time, he’s so boring [laughs]. Anyway there’s plenty more for you to go at, has it given you something to start with?
AH: Yes, that’s lovely, thank you. What’s your date of birth?
MO: My date is the 25th of the 6th ’33.
AH: Thank you.
MO: And I’m lovely with it. Now if you’d like to.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margaret Ottaway
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOttawayM161121
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:58:49 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Ottaway lived in Louth, the sixth of seven children, and tells of her childhood there. Tells of an air raid shelter they had in the house. Witnessed, as a seven year old, an enemy air raid on 19 February 1941, which caused damage and casualties and gives a vivid account of it. Tells of herself being buried in rubble and discovering many years later how she survived the bombing, unlike her sisters. Tells of her family: her father a special constable and a business man, a seventeen year old sister serving as an air raid warden. Talks about her marriage and her husband, a watchmaker who was among the establishers of Gibraltar Point Natural Reserve. Tells of a memorial dedicated to the victims of the air raid.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Louth
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941-02-19
Air Raid Precautions
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
memorial
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/336/3500/PTaylorE1703.2.jpg
65979095a323241a18467a15a2d5ff8f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/336/3500/ATaylorE170301.1.mp3
b603b16a59f1e485d9d4114f1212a3ea
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Taylor, Edith
E Taylor
Edith Tait
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Edith Taylor (b. 1930) and photographs of her and her husband.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Taylor, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: So, I’ll just introduce it first of all. So, my name’s Annie Moody.
ET: Yes.
AM: And I am, um, talking to you today on behalf of International Bomber Command and today is allegedly the first day of spring, the 1st of March 2017. So, today I’m with Edith Taylor and she’s going to tell me about her life basically [slight laugh]. So, you’ve told me Edith that you were born in October ’30. Where were you? Where you were born?
ET: Here in Manchester but it was, like, Crumpsall Hospital you see but I lived in Miles Platting at the time. I was born there.
AM: Right. Did, what about — did you have brothers and sisters?
ET: Yes, I had one brother and one sister. I was the eldest. My brother, um, he was about three and a half, 1934. My sister was born 1935.
AM: Right, OK. And what did our dad do?
ET: He was in — well, he was at Carys, the spring and axle place. He was — that’s what I think it come under, engineering like, but he’d served his apprenticeship years before and then — well, I’ll come to that in a bit. Now that’s what he did, at Carys, Springbank.
AM: Right and what about your mum?
ET: Well, my mother, I only ever remember my mother as my mother, but there again she had heart trouble apparently. She died with that, um, she died. The war started 1939 and I was nine on that 27th of October but in the February she died, just like two or three months after the war?
AM: What, what was your early life like then, you know, as a little — as a child, school life and all the rest of it.
ET: Right. Oh as a little one? I could tell you little stories that happened to me.
AM: Oh do, do.
ET: Right. Well, I can go back and I can remember this as plain as anything, 1935 actually [cough] and I lived in Cobden [?] Street, Mile Platting, near the gasworks, I don’t know if you ever remember or not, but Gleden Street Gasworks. But we lived at grandmas with my dad and mum and it was the Silver Jubilee of Queen Mary and King George the Fifth and I was obsessed with this from — you know, once I started the nursery school, I just can’t remember, but I was obsessed with crowns and everything and I wanted to see Queen Mary with a crown. Anyway, we had street parties and then we had pianos outside. There was no [unclear] if it rained it didn’t work properly, only the battery one, you know, the accumulators, and so I was at the children’s party and everything and somebody had said, ‘Oh, down there is Queen Mary and King George the Fifth.’ But we found out and I’ve known since that somebody must have been dressed up as them and gone round to the streets to the parties you see. Well, I really believed it was Queen Mary and King George the Fifth, staring, eating, anyway I must have fell asleep during the festivities. They whitewashed all the edgings, red, white and blue bunting and that and you name it. And I fell asleep and the next morning I woke up and I was really upset and in tears and my grandma said, ‘What’s the matter?’ ‘Queen Mary come and I didn’t see her.’ So she said, ‘Don’t go —.’ I said, ‘Well, she didn’t see me.’ I said, ‘You should have woke me up. I told you to wake me up if I was asleep.’ So she said, ‘It’s all right. She did kiss you and she wouldn’t let me wake you up. She said, ‘No, don’t waken her up.’ And I believed it. ‘Don’t waken her up. She’s in a nice sleep.’ I said, ‘Oh, did she?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ And I said, ‘Did she have a crown on?’ And she said, ‘Yes.’ So, from then on everybody — ‘Queen Mary kissed me, you know, she come down the street.’ [laugh] And I believed that for a long, long time, that Queen Mary had been and kissed me and I imagined her with it, you know, the — she used to have a high neck thing —
AM: With a string of pearls.
ET: Yeah and I’ll tell you that was their Silver Jubilee 1935. I remember that, yes, because I remember them playing the piano, “Sons of the Sea” and all that kind of thing and they were all singing and everything. I remember that day. It was, it was something that stuck in my mind because the Queen was there.
AM: And she kissed you.
ET: Yes, she kissed me but I didn’t know. [laugh]
AM: And what about school? What, what was school like? How many exams have you got?
ET: Well, I went to Holland Street School near the Red Rec where we used to end up going in the air raid shelters after. We thought we were safe there where the guns were. So, all round was the ack-ack guns firing at the planes and we was in the underground shelters. And, er, there was a big school at the bottom and it was Holland Street but in the meantime, I think it was about 1936 or ’37, my dad and my mum branched out from my grandma and they went and got this house in Ashton New Road, and it was down a side street, eight doors away from the new Royal Cinema, and I went to Christ Church then. It was a church school. Yeah, it was OK. I remember it. I can remember the headmaster, Mr Stubbs. I can, honestly. I remember him. We had to have a service every morning. It was the same hymn every morning “Every Morning is The Love”. That was the [unclear] the piano would be going, “Every Morning is the Love” [laugh]. That was wonderful. I remember some of the teachers. A Miss Lomax and she got married and her name was Mrs Wright, Miss Bates and Mrs Cole. Yeah, I do remember some of them, yeah, and Mr Carrick [?] and Mr Stubbs the headmaster and there was another one. I’m trying to think of it. Oh, Mrs Crowcock [?]. And, apparently, now I’m not sure about this whether it — but I’m sure it was her. She was coming to school, or it was either her or Miss Cole, one of those two teachers, and we all went in school and she never turned up. And she apparently she must have travelled to school on the train and she sat on this thing and she tipped over on the rails [?] just as the train was coming and was killed. Now that, that is true but I can’t just can’t tell you, can’t just remember which teacher it was now, yeah, but it was one of those teachers.
AM: That must have been quite shocking as a child, you know?
ET: Yes, well it was to us, yeah. And then the war started and my mother was still alive then and, of course, we all thought — well we didn’t but I mean we was kids — but they thought that there’d be bombing, you know, how everybody was because they was marching into all these countries dead easy. So there was a big evacuation scheme and my mother was allowed to go with my sister, as she was a baby, well she was a young kid but I had to go and look after my brother. So we went to Leek in Staffordshire.
AM: Was this the first year of the war then, 1939?
ET: Yeah. It started in, I think it was — don’t quote me again, I can’t remember. I think it must have been about October because the war started didn’t it in September? It was only a matter of weeks. It was a big evacuation scheme for children and mothers with little ones and, um, I do remember getting on a train with hundreds of children and we thought it was wonderful.
AM: On your own though. Not with any of your family? Oh, with your brother?
ET: With my little brother and, um, then I think the ladies were to be followed after and that but I do remember this, and I’m sorry to have to say this, but we were pretty poor in those areas and half of them didn’t know what an attaché case was, so they asked all the mothers to go to school and fetch bolster cases but on the beds were pillows.
AM: I was going to say what’s a bolster case then?
ET: It was the bolster that was that long.
AM: That was like a very long pillow wasn’t it, a bolster?
ET: A long pillow, yeah. One of them or a long pillow, yeah, or a pillow slip —
AM: Oh, so you mean literally the slip that would have gone over the bolster. I got you.
ET: Yeah, one of them if there was more than one children whatever and they all took them to school and they were all given these things to turn over and thread, ribbon or whatever, through them and we put our clothes in there [unclear].
AM: So you just had them over your shoulder.
ET: And the gas mask on the other side. [laugh] I remember that.
AM: What was the gas mask like then? Who showed you how to use it?
ET: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, up to five you had an ordinary — up to five you had a Mickey Mouse gas mask so they wouldn’t be frightened and it had a flap like a nose, a red nose and big goggles. Flappy nose. That was the up to five and it was a Mickey Mouse gas mask. The babies was in like a case and you used to have to pump. This is if they were gassed. The rest was, you know, used to just go on like a mask with a nozzle. But a lot of them said they was not all — they was — when I say a lot of them but it was in the paper and I wrote up and told them. It was in the Manchester [?] years ago and they showed a gas mask. They were given something at school. I think it was action Mecanno [?] and they put these gas masks with these goggles. I said, ‘No, they weren’t goggles. They was only goggles for the little ones. The gas mask had just a plain bar.’ And they wrote back and said, ‘Apologies, it was right.’ So I felt well they told the kids wrong there haven’t they?
AM: So off you went. What train station did you go from?
ET: Oh, I can’t remember the train station.
AM: Central Manchester or [unclear].
ET: I can’t remember the train station but there was hundreds of us there.
AM: So your mum, your mum had, you mum went off to —
ET: She went to Leek. She didn’t actually come with us. I think she came the day after.
AM: Right, so she went off to Leek with the, the littlest one. You and your brother, how did you get to the station? Did your dad take you?
ET: Oh, yeah. We had the, er, buses. They laid the Corporation buses on. They were red ones with the big lion on the side, you know, the Manchester Corporation. And, er, they all come out to all the schools, hundreds. They hardly had any buses then because they’d taken them to the schools to pick all the children up. But I’ll tell you this and I can tell you some stories and I mean this and I’m not exaggerating, you can believe me or believe me not, and I only wish I had the proof of all this, but we went to Leek and we went in the school and we sat on the floor, cross-legged, and this is God’s honest truth and I’ll stake my life on it, we got (there was no plastic then) a little carrier bag with a penny and a tin of Libby’s cream in it and a tin of corned beef, Libby’s corned beef, to take to wherever we were going, and we had them all in carrier bags. And my brother was only very young. I mean, he was only what? Five.
AM: Well, you’d be nine so he’d be five.
ET: Yes. So he was tired and there was a lot of us like that, all having to look after each other. I mean, I wasn’t just the one. There wasn’t only me. There were thousands like me. And, er, I said, ‘Well, tell you what. You carry my gas mask and I’ll carry your bag and the pillow slips.’ So I ended up with two pillow slips. He had my gas mask [laugh]. And we had this hill to walk up. Now we hadn’t — we didn’t know what a nettle was. You know nettles? There was nettles all alongside and we were getting — screaming and everything. Someone said a dock leaf and we thought it was marvellous. You know, we didn’t know what — and we sat on this grass verge and I always remember this as a child. I can even tell you where they went to as well. And, um, I sat there with my brother and I think we were the last to go because my mother said, ‘Do not be separated. Keep hold of Billy, he’s only little.’ And every chance I got, ‘No, not going to be separated. Not, wait, no, I’m not being separated. I’m with my brother. I’m going where my brother goes.’ So I lost out on a few places but they were coming in and a bit posh where we were in Leek. And they were weighing, weighing you up. They were coming and picking you off the grass verge. And they had a list, the teachers there, ticking them off and off you went. And I remember it was a Miss Bates. I told you about one of the teachers, and she said, ‘Well.’ She said, ‘The only thing we have here,’ she said, ‘but it would have to be on a temporary basis.’ We didn’t know what she was talking about. And she took us to this house. Oh, it was a big posh house it was and it was a doctor, Derek Stevenson [?]. I remember his name but his wife was a nurse and I can’t just remember her — I did know her name but I’ve forgot all about it since. But I remember she was one of those haughty things but he was alright, you know. Oh, this big posh house, you know, and they wanted grammar school girls and they weren’t arriving for another few days so she dec—, they decided, well she did, she’d take us in, you know, for just those few days and after that on your bike. And, um, what we did we went there and I think she thought she was still in hospital because about half past four, after we’d played out for a bit from school, and it was a very lovely summer that summer and, um, we had to go to bed. You know what I mean? Like lights out, kind of thing. But he was very nice, the chap. They were only very young. And this particular time me and my brother’s in bed and, er, we were talking and that, you know, and this knock come, well bell went I think or whatever. She said, ‘Oh well, come in but I don’t, I don’t approve of this.’ She said, ‘I, I do not approve of it at all.’ And I heard my mother’s voice. I shout, ‘Mum!’ ‘Stay where you are.’ So we stood there at the top of the stairs. So my mother said, ‘Well.’ She said, ‘And I don’t approve of what you’re doing either.’ She said, ‘Making my children go to bed on a lovely day like this.’ She said, ‘Now you either bring those children down.’ She said, ‘And let me take over. I’m here to see my children and then to see the sister.’ She said, ‘Now would you like — would you do that for me?’ And I remember them having words but anyway she said, ‘Come down.’ My brother put his little trousers on and she took us to the park and, um, oh we enjoyed it. ‘Do we have to go back mum?’ She said, ‘Yeah.’ But my dad was in the territorials and so as soon as the war started he was shipped off. Well, I say shipped off, he was moved out so she didn’t know where he was. It was all secret, you know, and she had heart trouble.
AM: So she was in Leek in a separate house? She was evacuated in a separate place?
ET: But she didn’t stay because my grandma gave up her home to go and live with my mum because of her heart trouble and the war being on and, um, so my grandma was coming to live with us again in Broad Street —
AM: So you all came back from — how long were you in Leek for then?
ET: Not all that long because I’ll tell you, my mother come home because —
AM: Right and that meant that you came home as well.
ET: No, we didn’t come home because of that. My mother came home because it wasn’t nice where she was billeted with this old lady. This old lady was really using her, putting on. Well, she had a bit of heart trouble. She couldn’t cope so she come home. She visited us again and she come home. But in the meantime we come home from school this particular day, my brother was sat in the corner and when I walked in she said, ‘Right, you’re going.’ The high school children had arrived, you know, from these places, so we went in this little van and off we went. Well, did you ever see that film, “No Room at the Inn”? Right, well it was like that but they was the loveliest people I’d ever known as children, honest. She was old-fashioned, long skirt, and he had a tash, you know, and he sat there with his pipe, just typical. There was quite a few children in that house and they were all from Hardwick, you know, they took — what evacuees, you know, what they took in. I mean, alright she got paid for them, but honest to God she was wonderful. She was absolutely wonderful.
AM: And this was the second house [unclear].
ET: This was the second house and we went in and we was frightened to death and he called, ‘Come in. Come in love. Come in.’ You know, real rough like. Oh, not like, not like Dr Stevenson [?], you know. So, er, anyway she took us upstairs and we was in a bedroom with about four or five kids so you can tell, you know, there was loads of them and, um, they were running up and down the stairs and when I seen that film I thought, ‘Bloody hell. That’s just us.’ Anyway, we did that and this is something else that I remember and, as I say, you can disbelieve me if you want. I mean, there’s no way I can prove it, but my sister, I went with my sister not long ago, and I cried at the Cenotaph because it brought back — my brother died. He dropped dead in the shower in Australia and, um, brought all those back to me. Anyway, when we — also she give us a penny and she said, ‘When you come back we’re all going to feed the ducks.’ So we said, ‘Right.’ And this was to go into the town. It was a Saturday and I, I used to love those Enid Blyton books. You know, they were only about threepence or something. But anyway, she give us a penny and we went into town with our gas masks and I said to our Billy, ‘Wait a minute.’ I’d got something in my shoe or something. Anyway, he left his gas mask on the Cenotaph. Well you had to go and report it to the police station if you lost your gas mask. We would have to go home won’t we? I said, ‘Where’s your gas mask?’ ‘I don’t know.’ I said, ‘You’ve left it on the Cenotaph.’ Went back, no. I said, ‘We’ll have to ask at the police station now so if they’ll lock you up.’ And I frightened the life out of that poor little bugger when I think about it. I was the boss. We took him to police station. I said, ‘He’s lost his gas mask.’ ‘Oh, where did you it sonny?’ ‘Don’t know,’ ‘I know where he lost it?’ I was in everything. So I said, ‘Are you going to put him in prison? In the gaol?’ So he said, ‘No, no.’ He said, ‘Ah thanks.’ I said, ‘You know what’s going to happen now don’t you?’ When we come out. He said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘A German’s going to find that gas mask.’ I said, ‘He’s going to take it.’ I said, ‘You know if any gas bombs come?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Well, you can’t share mine.’ I said, ‘Two of us can’t put that gas mask on one face. So you’ll have to be gassed.’ So he said, ‘Will I be gassed?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ And he was crying his little eyes out. Oh, I was, I was enjoying it. I was a bad little bugger wasn’t I? And then all of a sudden I said, ‘Come here. I’m only joking.’ And he sat on the Cenotaph and he was crying. I had my arms round him. All of a sudden, strike me if I tell you a lie, I looked up and said, ‘Here’s mum and gran.’ And my mother was walking up the main street with my grandma with our Dorothy and I ran up to her and she said, ‘What you doing here?’ I said, ‘We don’t live at that place now mum. We live at this other place.’ She said, ‘I’ve just got off the bus.’ They’d just got off the bus from Manchester whatever. So, she said, ‘When did you come?’ I said, ‘Yesterday.’ We was only there one day, oh no, what was it? Yesterday or the day before. We were only there a matter of a day or a couple of hours. Anyway, we took her to this house. So, anyway she, the woman said, ‘I’ve got their things here.’ You know, it was all legal and everything so — she was a nice lady. She made her a cup of tea with my grandma and that. So, anyway my grandma said, ‘Well, if you don’t mind we’re going to take the children.’ ‘Well, you can’t take them without a signature.’ So, my mum said, ‘I’ll leave the signature here.’ She said, ‘And you can take it up to the billeting office.’ She said, ‘Because they’re closed now.’ They called it the billeting office. And, and we come home. So we was home then because — and things were quiet. Then, after a couple of months, my mum died. Well, she was thirty-two. I mean [unclear] really. And she died with what I went in for, stents that they do now, but there was none then. Anyway, when she died my grandma was left on her own then. My dad was in the Army. So we had to be sorted out because they just wouldn’t let our grandma take us on because she was in her seventies, early seventies, well it were old then. And, er, I remember coming home for the funeral. I remember mum’s funeral. Me and our Dorothy had little purple dresses on and little braids and our Billy had a little cap and that was Phillips Park Cemetery and then we come — oh, then after that my dad come home on leave and it was compassionate leave and he had his uniform on and, er, that was something else that sticks on my mind. He sorted it out and we had to go to the town hall. He signed us but they wouldn’t let my dad sign the three of us over to my grandma. He had, she had to be sponsored. So, my Auntie Elsie sponsored our Bill. She was responsible although mum said, no, my gran said, ‘We’re keeping them together.’ That was in Broad [?] Street, still in Broad [?] Street and then my Auntie Elsie said, ‘Right, well little Dorothy.’ Because she had a little girl of her own age. There was nobody for me [laugh]. So, they said, ‘Well, what about Edie?’ They said, ‘Well, grandma can’t sign ‘cause she’s well over her age.’ ‘Well we need somebody with a signature. Other than that we’ll have to sort out some home or something out for her to the town hall.’ And that’s what used to frighten me. Anyway, I remember the woman coming from the town hall and it was a black hat and everything. Well, I had a cousin. I owed her everything. We was like sisters. She was ten years older than me so she was like nearly twenty but she was one of those had to get married. Her husband, well her husband had been shipped out, you know, Stanley, and she had to get married, kind of thing, but this was all hushed while we was kids. Uncle Tommy was a lovely man and she said, ‘Dad, our little Edie isn’t going there is she?’ And this and that. He said, ‘No she won’t. We’ll see to that.’ He said, ‘Come on.’ So he went down to the town hall and um my Uncle Tommy said, ‘Listen. She’s having a (they didn’t say pregnant then you know) she’s having a baby. Her husband is doing his bit. She’s nearly twenty.’ Er, something like that, no she wasn’t, nineteen, yeah, I know it was very young. He said, ‘So, if she’s old enough to give birth, old enough to be a mother and why can’t she be a mother to her? Why can’t she sponsor her?’ Anyway, they sent word through and they let her sign for me, so we was able to stick together, but all that my grandma got really, it was, it was bad really, because a lot of the women went on munitions were all getting money, but my grandma had seven shillings and sixpence, I think, old age pension and my dad’s Army pay, twenty-two shillings and sixpence, for four of us.
AM: To look after you all.
ET: So she got there, she did. And, um, you know it was just — and that but she was elderly and the Red Rec was where my Auntie Elsie lived and for safety the bombers used to come at tea-time or weekends —
AM: Oh that was what I was going to ask you. Carry on though and I’ll ask you in a minute.
ET: Yeah and, um, we used to get ready of a weekend, go down to my auntie’s on Bradford Road and we used to all would walk before the raid started so we’d be in the shelters ready.
AM: So what’s your first memory of that?
ET: The night of the Blitz?
AM: Yeah.
ET: It was Christmas Eve 1941 and we was all in the shelters and the ack-ack guns went bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! It was worse than a lot — it was worse than we could remember because the soil and everything was coming down.
AM: Just, that’s just going back a little bit. So [cough] excuse me. So from you being back home with your grandma what did you see of the war then in — before the Blitz?
ET: Well, there was air raids and we, we — what it was, my gran used to have a shawl and she had a bag. Now, we were at home and I had to have to look after my brother. Now, I just I thought you just wanted the war but I can tell you this. That was my responsibility. I was a mother at nine, ten. I used to have to get up early, get myself ready with the slop bowl because there was no white sinks then. And get my brother up, well he was up, and wash, make sure he was washed and take him to school and then bring him home. Now that was that. We’d go to play a bit and then of course we’d have to go in for something to eat because of the siren and the sirens went nearly every night after that and that’s why I was re-evacuated. We went back again. Not to Leek, to Colne this time. That’s how all this lot come out —
AM: Is that before the Blitz or after?
ET: No, after the Blitz.
AM: Right OK. So the sirens are going and you’d mentioned the air raid shelters that you went in —
ET: Yes but that was in — we had communal air raid shelters first. They was just brick with bunk, bunk beds in and we used to take all the comics in and everything, swap them. I remember the comics: the Knockout, the Film Fun, the Beano, the Dandy. I remember all them and we used to go to, go to the paper shop and we’d say, ‘You get the Dandy and we’ll get the Knockout and we’ll swap.’ It was a lot of comics and, er, there’d be singing in the shelter or whatever and there’d be banging. But they were only the brick shelters. They weren’t — not like the Underground and, er, we used to — I remember this and do you know I had a piece of shrapnel in that shed for years and years and years and it went missing when the shed went.
AM: When you went. So did — so you went in the shelters. Did you actually see the planes?
ET: Oh no, no, no, you was inside. No. You could just hear them droning and the air raid wardens used come round with these torches inside because they weren’t allowed any lights outside and make sure everybody was OK and then — but we used to have to stand out at the kitchen door. It was a yard and I used to have to put Billy’s siren — they called them siren suits — and it was a [unclear] you’d zip it up, hood on and our Bill used to be there and I used to get him in, zip him up, ‘Right, Bill. Get down.’ But he was always half asleep, you know, how kids were and we’d stand on the — and I remember this standing on the — in the yard near the door, and my grandma would have Dorothy under her shawl and her bag and she used — you’d see it all then, big flashes in the sky, searchlights.
AM: What was it like that, seeing that?
ET: Oh, it was searchlights in the sky, crossing each other, and this way and that way. You know, you could hear them, brrrrrr. Bang! Bang! Bang! Whatever, fighting or whatever, and you’d hear crashing, the big ack-ack guns and you’d see, sometimes you’d see white hot flashing shrapnel from the shells flying past, not flying past your head but flying in the air, you know. Well, that’s what you had to be afraid of because they were white hot and, er, we used to sit there but there wasn’t only us, I mean, everybody used to hear them shouting, ‘Yeah, right now!’ And they used to come out of the thing and used to run in the shelter and my gran used to say, ‘Grab him.’ And then I used to have to hold him at his back because he was always half asleep. ‘Er, I’ll kill the Germans when they get here.’ I’d say. ‘Well, wait till they get here.’ But anyway this is how it used to be and she used to sort of — well she couldn’t run properly. She’d hurry up in the shelter. I can’t remember how she used to — I don’t think she ever went before us. You know, she used to have us in front of her, that was my grandma, and she used say, ‘Don’t let him fall. Get your hands over your head.’ And my brother used to have to put his hands over his head like that. Now, whether that was something they was asked to do, thinking it was white hot shrapnel, I don’t know but I always remember and the [unclear] used to say, ‘He won’t put his bloody hands over his head.’ Or something like that. But so it might have been something like a piece of propaganda, I don’t know. I don’t know what, what safety it was, I don’t know. All that I knew that he had to put his hands over his head and I had to grab him and we used to run with him into the shelters. Then after that it got so bad that my grandma was feeling, you know — that’s when we used to come down to my Auntie’s and go down the underground shelters with the family. That’s how we come to get there ‘cause our Phyllis was there. She’d had the baby. Of course, there was ten years between me, me and my cousin and ten years between the little one.
AM: And you. So you was little.
ET: Yeah, so of course they used to sit, you know, how they do, the babies. She used to have this bloody big gas mask, you know, all of them did, so we used to go down the underground shelters. But the night of the Blitz, um, I remember Tate and Lyle sugar factory going up on Oldham Road and it stunk for days of the sugar.
AM: What did you see? What, you know, from the beginning of it just try and describe what it, what you saw.
ET: Well, that’s, that’s the things that I saw. The shrapnel, you know, flashing pieces of shrapnel flying in the air.
AM: Could you actually see the planes?
ET: If they was caught in the sunlight, if they was caught in the searchlight, but you was never allowed outside the shelter. It was only when you were running towards —
AM: Yeah that’s what I’m thinking about, as you were running towards the shelter.
ET: If you was to look up you’d just see the searchlights going and then you’d see flashing lights, you know. I don’t ever remember seeing a plane caught in the searchlight but I did know people used to say, ‘Bloody hell. They’ve caught one in them lights anyway.’ So, it’d be a German one, wouldn’t it?
AM: Yeah.
ET: So, but I mean all we was concerned about was getting in the shelter and away from the shrapnel and watch it didn’t hit you and that. Yeah, so and then we went in but the night of the Blitz I remember oh it was awful. It banged and banged and banged all night. Oh, it was terrible and when the all, all clear went, the siren went, the all clear, we all come out and we were all like — do you know from the shells it was even shaking the shelters like and, you know, it must have been more now than on the [unclear] because there was women as well. There was ack-ack. As we were going out my Uncle Tommy (he was in the 1914 war) and he said, ‘My God, Elsie.’ That was his way. He said, ‘Town’s on fire. The sky’s, the town and sky is on fire.’ As we come out, I’m not joking, the sky was as red it looked just like flames, the sky, but they’d had a go at Manchester, Trafford and that area. I mean, next day everywhere you went there was unexploded bombs. You couldn’t get anywhere. I mean, I didn’t go down but you couldn’t get anywhere. It was all roped off. And, um, it was — and I thought the world’s come to an end, you know, you do. We’re all on fire and in own our minds we all — ‘cause the kids was — we’re all burning up. We’re, we’re all on fire because the — it was red and I mean blood red with streaks of different colours in the sky, like a rainbow I should imagine, I don’t know. But that was the night of the Blitz but it was because of the incendiary bombs and the, all the guns and everything going and the searchlights were still searching so it was like, um, a pattern, just like a pattern of different coloured lights and, you know, different colours. And that was the night of the Blitz. Well, after that it was so bad then.
AM: When, when you came out of the shelter then in the morning you said that the Tate and Lyle factory had gone.
ET: Yeah, well yeah. I can’t remember whether it was that night or not but I have no memory. I remember coming out one day —
AM: What did it smell of?
ET: I don’t know. Burnt sugar but —
AM: Just burnt, like horrible burnt sugar caramel smell?
ET: Burnt sugar. Yeah, yeah, very strong.
AM: When you did came back out the shelter after the Blitz did you see houses, any — the damage?
ET: Yes, we had some rel— relations, my dad’s cousins or something, [unclear] I don’t know if you’ve heard of that. That was right near Phillips Park cemetery. They used to have a little black dog and they’d come out of the shelter, this particular night, and it had got dark the night of the Blitz they went in this shelter but they never used to go in it and that was bombed. Now Energy Street, the next street up, now I don’t know whether that was the night of the Blitz, but I remember a land mine dropping in that street and everybody was evacuated out of it but half of it went up. That was in Energy Street. That was, that was near the shelters.
AM: So how near, how near to being bombed out were you?
ET: Well, I don’t — well, only in the shelters that’s all, but not in the houses. There was a house went up a few streets away and everybody went. You’d have thought it was — what they call it? Blackpool Illuminations. Everybody went to see it. [laugh] ‘Ay, go and see the house that’s been bombed.’
AM: So as kids you were looking.
ET: Yeah we was all there looking. We were on the ground picking up the shrapnel up from the floor and, you know, the shells and sticking in the soil, you know, from those, these shelters but, um, then in the shelter we’d say, ‘What time is it?’ Such a thing. ‘Ah!’ When the all clear went. ‘Ah!’ We’d all have to go to school but if the all clear went after a certain time we didn’t have to go [laugh].
AM: Right.
ET: You know, so its kids wasn’t it? Then we went to Colne. Now that was a different thing altogether.
AM: That was when you were evacuated again?
ET: This time my mother had died and everything so this time off we went again —
AM: When you say we —
ET: Me, Billy and Dorothy.
AM: So the three of you.
ET: But I had to look after Dorothy this time. Billy had to be on his own.
AM: He was a bit older now.
ET: Well when I say older, he was only twelve months older. He was still a baby to us and I remember the buses coming again, picking us all up, and I do remember all this crying and one thing and another because things got bad then and I remember my grandma waving to us. And I’ve thought back since, I’ve thought we had no mother or no father to wave us off, you know, we was just three on our own.
AM: Yeah because how often did you see your dad, not very?
ET: No, my dad was in the Army.
AM: Yeah that’s what I mean so —
ET: No, we didn’t see him for years.
AM: Not even on leave or anything like that?
ET: No, well no, he didn’t come home on leave. They didn’t go on leave like they did — and he was waiting to go abroad but he was in a unit where he was shipped him from one place to another because his unit had gone. He was a signaller so they used him here. But I mean he was in London. He was all over the place.
AM: So, basically, you’re three kids on your own. You had your grandma —
ET: Well, that’s it. Yeah, we were. We was — they used to say we were orphans. Anyway one Saturday — oh, and then we went to Colne.
AM: What was that like? What was Colne like?
ET: Very nice. The people were a lot different. They were us. Do you understand me?
AM: Because Colne was a working — a mill town?
ET: A mill town, yeah. It was our thing. They were more understanding and I’ll tell you it was thick with snow when we arrived and it was at Christ Church School in, um, Wycoller, not Wycoller. It was Wycoller, Trawden — oh, what was it called? Yeah, it was [emphasis] Wycoller but it was Christ Church. And, um, there was, there was Trawden nearby, all round that area, but when we arrived it was thick with snow and we was freezing, really cold, and they give us all a muffin and I think it was drinking chocolate to warm us up and we sat there in the school and it was lovely and warm. There was teachers there and it wasn’t coming and picking you. They were just coming to the counter and they were saying, ‘A little boy.’ You know, well, ‘A little boy over a year.’ You know and things like that and they ticked them off. And they put transport on for them. Yeah, they did. They were volunteers. They were coming and taking them because it was thick with snow, ‘People won’t —.’ They kept saying, ‘People won’t be coming in.’ Because there wasn’t many cars then. ‘They wouldn’t be coming on the buses to pick a child and then go all the back to Trawden.’ So, they laid all the transport on for everybody so that they would come and pick the children and they did. And, er, I remember somebody shouting, ‘William Tate.’ I said, ‘You’ve got to go Billy.’ ‘I’m not going.’ I said, ‘You’ve got to.’ ‘No I’m not. I want to stay with you.’ I said, ‘You can’t.’ And he was crying. Anyway, he went up to the thing and he had a lovely lady. They wanted to adopt. Oh, they were lovely with him. He stayed there nearly all through the war. He went in the Army from there and everything.
AM: But you did get split up the three of you?
ET: Yeah, yeah, well no. Well, Dorothy, she was very young so my brother went and we went to a lovely lady called Mrs Bolton and her husband was in the Navy. She was going to Plymouth to stay, be stationed with him, but she was just taking us on because this other lady’s mother had an accident or something and she couldn’t take us in so she did the honours till — it was only for a few days. And we went to bed but she was lovely. I said, ‘I just want to know where my brother is?’ Because we didn’t know. She said, ‘I’ll find your brother for you.’ I said, ‘Will you?’ She said, ‘Yeah.’ Well, our Dorothy and me was in bed. These are sentimental things. Do you want to hear them?
AM: Yeah.
ET: And I was in bed and I kept thinking, ‘Where’s our Billy? I wonder where our Billy is.’ And our Dot would say, ‘Are you going to find Billy?’ I said, ‘Yes, we’ll find him tomorrow.’ And she put a little radio on for us beside of the bed. You know, ‘Now go to sleep. Be like good girls.’ She said, ‘And I will see what I can do tomorrow.’ So we said, ‘Alright Mrs Bolton.’ And I’ll tell you what come on. Now I said it was Gracie Fields. She did actually sing it but apparently it was Vera Lyn. But I said there is a record I’ll swear there is, “Goodnight children everywhere. Your mummy thinks of you tonight. Lay your head upon your pillow. Don’t be what’s that weeping willow.” I was crying my eyes out. It was on the radio and our Dot was fast asleep. The next morning she’s, upon my life and I’ll never stir from here. We gets up and she had twin nieces, and they was twin nieces there. Lovely girls. I think I’d say about fourteen. I’m guessing ‘cause — so she said, ‘Mrs Bolton’s gone down to the billeting place.’ She said, ‘In cold, in the streets, to find out your brother is and we’ve come to stay here until she comes back.’ I said, ‘Oh, alright.’ And she come back and I can remember the names of the things. ‘I’ve found out where your brother is.’ ‘Oh, have you?’ ‘Yes.’ She said, ‘Number 14, Holme Street.’ ‘Where’s that?’ ‘Round the corner.’ It was round the corner, in Cottontree.
ET: Have you heard of that?
AM: No.
ET: Cottontree, on the Colne. And I said, ‘Round the corner?’ She said, ‘Yes. So if your get yourself ready you can go round.’ So, and their names’ Mr and Mrs Greenwood. So me and our Dot went by the gate. We wouldn’t use the back. The gate was that high. So we’re knocking on the gate. Nobody could see us. So anyway, I put my hand up and this woman said, ‘Who is it?’ And I said, ‘Is my brother here?’ She said, ‘Oh, is it Billy’s sister?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ She come and opened the gate and he was crying. They’d got him a little policeman with some sweets in and he was crying his little eyes out. He’d cried all night for me, yeah. And, er, so it was OK. So, I had to write home then to my gran to say we’ve found Billy, he’s alright and this that and another and we’re alright. But we touched for a rotten home. I’ve got a mark here on my shoulder here now. He cut me with a leather belt.
AM: What, the people —
ET: The farmer where we went after. Yeah, he did, yeah.
AM: Why?
ET: For laughing [laugh]. It — well, that was the name, Catlow, Kitty Catlow and, er, her husband and he had — he worked on the farm at the side of the thing. Anyway, we had to be billeted again so they took us then to this house near the moors, but not far on the other side of Christ Church School, and it was called, er, Bluebell Cottages and I remember that. And we went and they were little thatched cottages and they were beautiful. So we went in and her name was Kitty Catlow, Mrs Catlow. They was only very young. They had no children and he was big and he only had one eye. I always remember it. And she was alright with him but she was always at her mother’s down in, in the centre of the town and, er, it was one of those cottages where you used, used to go upstairs and sleep on the landing. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen them. There’s a lot of them in these places. I mean, not so much now I don’t suppose. And we had this bed on there. Of course we had the giggles me, didn’t we, me and Dorothy? I was always bloody giggling. And he told us to shut up. So we did. ‘He, he, he, he.’ Oh, and all of a sudden he came up with this leather belt and a buckle on it like that. It was a big farmer’s belt. He said, ‘You’ll get this if you don’t shut up.’ Well, we didn’t, did we? We were still tittering but not out loud. Oh, this belt come up. I got it here on the back of my neck and he hit me. I went over Dorothy like that and he hit me and it poured with blood. And it was really, really sore. Anyway, listen to this —
AM: Imagine nowadays.
ET: Oh, ay. I was screaming and that. Anyway, she — I don’t know whether she just wanted to, wanted Dorothy there, the baby, the little one, and be rid of me, obviously for some reason or other, but she, she blackened my character. She kept saying I was very cheeky. I wouldn’t do as I was told. I was really a bad’un, you know, but in one way she couldn’t cope. But the little one, yes, but not me. So, anyway, this particular time — also I went to school, come home from school, and she said, ‘Don’t make yourself comfortable because you’re not staying.’ I said, ‘Oh, aren’t I?’ She said, ‘No.’ And it was a little van come up, another little van, and we went to Alkincoats Hall in the park and we went right near where my sister lives now. She lives, still lives there. Alkincoats Hall, it belonged to Coat’s Cotton, you know the reels of cotton. It was a mansion and they gave it to over for any evacuees and all. It was all evacuees nobody wanted, you know, thieves and allsorts. I went there and our Dorothy was sat on the doorstep crying for me. So I was separated from her then wasn’t I? So I went to Alkincoats Hall then. I was in a dormitory with all these young girls and they were alright. But some of the experiences in there. I had to dance. We used to roll brown paper up and smoke them. We thought we were big. We’d have a stay in, you know, draw the curtains. And the nurses from Ancoats Hospital looked after us. Yeah, they all — the nurses used to come and looked after us, this and that. Then one day I was playing and somebody said, ‘Edith Tate’s wanted.’ I thought, ‘I haven’t done anything.’ I thought, ‘Nobody’d seen me smoke.’ Because we were all doing it. You know how you do? Nobody’d seen me smoke and that. And I walked out and there was my Uncle Tommy and my dad and my Uncle Tom was a lovely man. He’d have looked after us. I said, ‘Dad. Uncle Tommy.’ You know, and my dad was crying, and he said, ‘You alright love?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Have you been to see Dorothy?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We have.’ He said, ‘Dorothy’s at home.’ Oh I said, ‘Is she?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Can I come home?’ He said, ‘Yes you can.’ He said, ‘I’ve come for you.’ But he’d got a visitors [?] and when he got there the teach— she was a teacher next door, she said, ‘Can have a word with you Sir?’ So my dad said, ‘Yes.’ He was in his uniform. She said, ‘Well.’ She said, ‘I don’t want any reprisals. I don’t want —.’ But she said, ‘If I was you I wouldn’t let the children stay with her. Well, I should say your little daughter. She’s got rid of the big one.’ He said, ‘What do you mean?’ She said, ‘Where she is I don’t know.’ She said, ‘But she was taken away in the van yesterday.’ So she said, ‘And she’ll be at her mother’s as usual down town.’ ‘Well, where does her mother live?’ ‘Well I do know where her mother lives.’ She said, ‘But don’t tell her I told you.’ So she told my dad. Well, my dad was on his own. So he went looking and Dorothy was in the back yard in her mother’s. And he said, ‘Dotty.’ ‘Dad.’ So he comes over. He said, ‘Where’s my daughter?’ So the mother, she said, ‘Kitty’s gone shopping.’ She said, ‘I don’t know here she is.’ He said, ‘Yes, you bloody do. I want to know where she is now.’ She said, ‘I honestly couldn’t tell you.’ She was frightened of telling him. So my dad gets on the bus to bring my sister home but he was frightened to death. He’d come home on compassionate leave from London.
AM: So where did the three of you end up if he’d gone back home then, back to your grandma?
ET: Yeah, we was at home, yeah, we was back. And anyway he went to the farm. I believe the language was awful. [laugh]
AM: Did he know about the belt thing?
ET: No, not until later on. No, no. And, um, he went to the farm. He says, ‘I want to see Catlow.’ I can just think of his face now. So this young lad says, ‘Well, he’s busy.’ He said, ‘Not too busy enough to see me.’ Well my Uncle Tommy had come with him you see and my Uncle Tommy’s a big fella. He said, ‘Not busy to see me.’ He says, ‘Get him here now.’ Anyway he wouldn’t come. So my dad says or my Uncle Tommy says, ‘I’ll bleeding go in.’ I’ll not swear. ‘I’ll go in there. I’ll soon go in there and sort him out.’ He says, ‘You’re trespassing Tommy. No. Wait until he comes out.’ He said, ‘I’ll wait all night. He’s got to come out this way.’ Anyway he come, shaking. Well, I believe it was choice see and the remark was passed, ‘You’ve got one so and so wife and you won’t have your other eye if you don’t tell me where my daughter is now.’ He was frightened. ‘Alkincoats Home.’ ‘And where’s that?’ And that’s when my dad come. It was the next day. He’d been looking for me and he took me home my Uncle Tommy had gave me a comic and all. Oh, they was thrilled and I come home and I was home for a bit.
AM: So you and Dorothy come home. Did Billy come home as well?
ET: No, Billy had a lovely place, yeah, Billy. He was really good. And then, um, that was it.
AM: So what year are you in now, ’43?
ET: Now, well I’m guessing, I’d say about ’43.
AM: ’43.
ET: ’43 yeah.
AM: So you are thirteen by now?
ET: Yeah, near of enough. That could be — I could be well out there. I don’t know about that. I can’t remember all the years. And then I left school at fourteen.
AM: So, you left school at fourteen?
ET: Yeah and I went to JD Williams’s in town, you know the place, for nineteen and eleven pence.
AM: So, what was that. What did you do there?
ET: It was clerical work because I was quite clever at school. I mean not, you know, not whatsit but I was and I passed and everything but there was no money. I couldn’t go —
AM: No you couldn’t — so you didn’t do a school certificate even?
ET: No, well you didn’t have them, yeah, unless went to grammar school or something but that was out of the question. So, I went to Johnson Street Senior Girls School near Palmer Street Baths, you know, going up towards Openshaw and, um, when I was fourteen I left and I went to JD Williams’s.
AM: How did you get the job? How did you —
ET: The school.
AM: Right.
ET: The school got me the job because I was going to go machining and it was a bit low that I believe at the time. I don’t know but I remember the headmistress saying, ‘You’re better. You can do better than machining Edith. And I’d rather go to what I think you’re clever at.’ Because I’m not being funny but I was. I didn’t tell him. My dad was an exceptionally clever man. His father went to Oxford University and he taught me a lot. There wasn’t nothing, you know, he was very good. So to cut a long story short so I left and it was nineteen and eleven pence starting. Where the eleven pence come in I don’t know but, um, after three months I got a rise of two and sixpence. So I got one pounds two shillings and five pence so I got an extra threepence spending money.
AM: So you had to give it to grandma?
ET: Oh, yeah. I had to give it up to grandma, yeah. Then my dad come home on leave again and when he went back they said, ‘We’ve no records of you.’ They were all bombed and that, in London, his records. So he said, ‘Well I’m still alive. I’m still here.’ So he had — they gave him a ticket. It was legal. War class reserve. They could call him in any time at all, any time, but until then they had to sort him out. Because they said, ‘You should have been in Malta.’ He said, ‘Yes, I would have been in Malta if it wasn’t for my wife dying.’ He said, ‘I was sent home to sort the children out and that band they’d gone. Well I didn’t know they’d gone. Well nobody knew where they were going.’ Anyway it was like that. So he was at home then and so it was great, you know, but he couldn’t get a job. Nobody in munitions would give him a job.
AM: So we’re still in the war years?
ET: Oh yeah, yeah and they couldn’t give — it was only the last twelve months or so. It wasn’t, it was — and it was nice to have dad back but they wouldn’t give him a job because they were all munitions and they weren’t allowed because he was a serviceman.
AM: Right.
ET: It was something to do with a legal thing and he was on war class reserve so they dare n’t so he got an old man’s job and it was a, a real good one, The Ruberoid on Stretford Road, Trafford, and it was felting, you know, all felting for roofs and stuff, um, bitu— bitumen and the ruberoid it was called. [loud noise]. He used to get — close the door Sam.
ST: Close the door Sam. [unclear] You’ll have five more minutes.
ET: Men. Anyway — mind you, it’s the best thing that’s ever happened to me, you know, honest to God it is.
AM: Good.
ET: Because I couldn’t get back to my true self you see [laugh]. Anyway, um, he got this job at Ruberoid and then — but I started then. I got an offer of a job. It was on munitions but because I was underage I wasn’t allowed to take it, a part in munition things, because you had to register at fifteen.
AM: Because you were fifteen by then.
ET: So I was able to go and all the rest of it. I didn’t have to register or get supported or anything because I was fifteen, going on sixteen, and I went to Rich— Stevenson’s Box Works on Pollard Street, don’t you ever know that or not? Ancoats way.
AM: Well I know where Pollard Street is.
ET: Well there’s a fire station near there and also, er, Carruthers Street, you remember that? Well this was Stevenson’s Box Works and it was turned into a munitions factory because he used to make bullet cases and bomb grenade cases. It was all cases, all boxes. It wasn’t the actual armaments.
AM: Explosives. It was the — yeah.
ET: But it was considered a munitions factory because they couldn’t export the live things, you know. Well I started there and I got five shillings more. It was wonderful. That’s why I went because I got five shilling more.
AM: And what was it like? What was it like working there then?
ET: They put me with this woman, a tall lass, broad laughing, very crude, but she was lovely. She married a Yank. She was nineteen and she would come in in the morning, well, there couldn’t — and she’d say, ‘Here. Come here littlun.’ Littlun! And she used to give me lipsticks. The lipsticks.
AM: Oh right.
ET: The things that she said and I was that naive I didn’t know what they were, you know what I mean? She’d say, ‘Here you are. Don’t give that away.’ And I’d say, ‘Thanks Mary.’ ‘Cause they were still in the case. It weren’t lipstick of hers. ‘Oh that’s a Max Factor lipstick.’ You know. She was wonderful with me. But like I say the things she said. I’d say, ‘What?’ They’d say, ‘She’s talking about —.’ But I knew it was bad and I knew it wasn’t right. I couldn’t ask my grandma. She’d have thrown me out. So I kept it to myself because I knew it wasn’t nice. But I was so — but well at that age —
AM: Well you were fifteen.
ET: Yeah, I mean — but I enjoyed it there and then, of course, I went on after that, you know, when things had calmed down. The war had finished and everything and that was it.
AM: And that was it. The end of your war. So what did you end up doing after, after the war?
ET: I went to Miller’s Baking Powder and, um, that was Cheetham Mill and while I was there we all had penfriends and I had a penfriend that was in Karachi. At the time he was in the Air Force. I can’t get away from it. I worked at Aerospace and all kinds. I can’t get away from it. And, um, actually he come home, you know, when they were having like freedom.
AM: Now, so a penfriend who was in Karachi but it was somebody who was English.
ET: Yeah, he was in the RAF. Yeah. No. It wasn’t him.
AM: Oh right. It was different. Right.
ET: No, it wasn’t him.
AM: We’re pointing at a photo and we’re saying it wasn’t him.
ET: No, it wasn’t him.
AM: So not the person who became your husband?
ET: No and that was a little bit of an episode and what have you after that and I went on Phonatas [?]. That was a lovely job. I loved it. Went to all these places in town and everything. And I went to S and J Watts, now the Britannia Hotel. It was S and J Watts. And it was a marvellous building.
AM: Right. So what did they did do there?
ET: It was a warehouse where they did shirts, all women’s things, clothes, you know, and I went there one morning in my uniform, brown uniform on, you know, went up the stairs and, er, cleaning the phone. All of a sudden this lad come up. ‘What you doing?’ I said, ‘Cleaning the phone.’ ‘Oh.’ It was him.
AM: [Laugh] We’re pointing at the picture of her husband now.
ET: So, I said, ‘Oh.’ So he said, ‘And what else?’ I was sort of telling him. So I said, ‘Have you just started here?’ He said, ‘I’ve just come out of the RAF.’ Oh, I said, ‘Have you?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I’ve only took this job really temporary because I have something else in mind.’ Oh, I said, ‘Right.’ He said, ‘Where do you go?’ I said, ‘I go to Bellevue, Speedway, down Prestwich [?].’ Which I did. ‘Do you go with your friends?’ ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘I go with a few girls, one in particular, Beryl, you know.’ So, he said, ‘Only I’ve got a cousin.’ He said, ‘I’ve been going out with since coming out of the RAF. We’ll meet you at Bellevue if you want in the ballroom.’ ‘Yes if you can do.’ And we did and from then on —
AM: And that was that.
ET: Yeah. Yeah. She went with his cousin for a while but she got someone else after and that was it.
AM: Was the zoo thereat Bellevue then?
ET: Yeah the zoo was yeah.
AM: With the elephant.
ET: Yeah. The elephant I can’t remember, the elephant I don’t remember that being there when — but I remember as a little girl I used to have a ride on it.
AM: That’s what, that’s my memory of it. The elephant you could all ride on the elephant at Bellevue Zoo.
ET: Yeah you used to go and have a ride on it yeah but I don’t remember riding on it after that so whether it had gone or not I couldn’t tell you about that.
AM: There’s a picture of it in one of the museums down on Oxford Road.
ET: Oh is there? Right.
AM: So then you got married and lived happily ever after, had your daughter I think you said.
ET: One daughter yeah.
AM: A daughter and you got grandchildren as well?
ET: I got one granddaughter. She’s thirty six and my little great-grandson there. He’s twelve months old.
AM: Ah.
ET: He’s a little darling. He really is. He’s funny.
ET: And you were married for how long? Fifty seven years?
AM: Yeah, when he died, yeah. Got married in 1950.
ET: But what I happen to know for the tape is that Edith and Warrant Officer Sam Thompson 9 and 103 Squadrons previously interviewed by my husband and Dorothy and enjoyed spending time together. Is that, is that a good way of describe it? You enjoyed sending time together.
AM: Oh definitely. Yeah we do.
ET: So you’re enjoying life.
AM: Yeah he comes in.
AM: Trials and tribulations.
ET: I mean he’s come here now for this week and I go back with him on Monday for another week.
AM: And you go off on your holidays don’t you?
ET: Oh. Yeah, yeah and that’s how I come to meet him at Richard Peck and we still go there.
AM: You told me. Yeah. Wonderful.
ET: Yeah, that was just out of the blue that was.
AM: I tell you.
ET: Yeah and even at Richard Peck they’ll say they used to love us and I said, ‘I hope they’ve kept our seat open because had a seat there just for us.’
AM: Where was that?
ET: Richard Peck where we go.
AM: That’s your holiday home at St Annes.
ET: Yeah but we go for the same price, such and such, they must say, ‘Right, your seat’s there.’ And I say, ‘I hope you’ve kept it right an’ all.’
AM: And all your family like him and his family like you.
ET: Yeah, they do.
AM: And why would they not.
ET: My daughter [unclear] the rest of them do [unclear].
AM: That’s another story and —
ET: Oh yeah. But that don’t bother me because I just went like this [unclear]. ‘You know your son.’ I said, ‘I know it’s your family [unclear].’ He’s come in now.
AM: Sam and Gary have now appeared and we’ve come to the end of the story so I’m going to switch the tape off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ATaylorE170301
PTaylorE1703
Title
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Interview with Edith Taylor
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:03:53 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Annie Moody
Date
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2017-03-01
Description
An account of the resource
Edith Taylor (née Tate) grew up in Manchester and experienced the bombing of Manchester. She also describes life as a young evacuee.
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
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1940-12
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Air Raid Precautions
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1205/11778/PWilsonT1502.2.jpg
3d62a4332a9b0bd72728f20e692379b6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1205/11778/AWilsonG-T150816.1.mp3
893ffee8213621a9225a4ab894319fce
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1205/11778/PWilsonT1501.2.jpg
113ccf78143631dae06533e3008fc9a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilson, Tom
T Wilson
Wilson, Gabi
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Gabi Wilson (b. 1927) and Warrant Officer Tom Wilson (Royal Air Force) and a photograph. Gabi Wilson was a civilian in Germany during the war. Tom flew as a navigator on Wellingtons of 192 Squadron. He was shot down over the Hague and taken prisoner and went to Stalag Luft III.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wilson, T-G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. What I’m going to do is just introduce us first.
GW: Yeah.
AM: So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody and the interviewee is Gabby Wilson.
GW: Yeah.
AM: And the interview is taking place at Mrs Wilson’s home in Coleshill near Birmingham today, the, Sunday the 16th of August 2015.
GW: Yeah, I think people prefer Warwickshire, I’m sorry.
AM: Warwickshire, oh better than Birmingham, ok, a better postal code. So, Gabby tell me a little bit about, your, just a little bit about your childhood.
GW: Right.
AM: And where you were born.
GW: My childhood was unusual because my father had lost his sight. He was a regular army officer in the Prussian Army and he lost his sight in November ’14. Straightway decided to start a new life, went to Berlin University aided by his batman at first, said to the batman, ‘Introduce me to that girl with the beautiful laugh’ and that is my mother who gave up her studies and we had a very happy childhood, four children and I was the youngest of four.
AM: Fabulous, where did, whereabouts did you live Gabby?
GW: Oh Berlin.
AM: In Berlin.
GW: It was yes. It was, yes, Berlin. It was Berlin University and my parents got an apartment in a place founded by Frederick the Great for invalided soldiers and there was, built in 1912, an officer’s apartment halls and a large, large garden. I would think four to six times as large as this.
AM: And this one’s quite big.
GW: Yeah, yes.
AM: Ok and what about school? Where did you go to school?
GW: I went to school, to the local primary school at first and then to the, what’s called, well what would be grammar school and we had to go do a tram ride to get to that one so that was but of course taking my father about, although he was very independent we were well dealt with we knew about traffic, we were fine. I think I took my father across the road, a quiet road but still, when I was three.
AM: Three years old.
GW: Yes. He would say, he was always in command, which was very good. The whole complex was moved out in ’39 just outside Berlin, still Berlin but the absolute edge, which was a blessing of course with the bombing and everything.
AM: Was it moved out because of the —
GW: No.
AM: No.
GW: No, no, it was because the complex in Berlin was being, going to be used for the Military Medical Corps for training and so on. So we were pushed out there, very inconvenient for, particularly for all those with jobs. It was a fifteen to twenty minutes walk to the suburban station and then three quarters of an hour, half an hour, three quarters of an hour into the city, which my father, who had got his degree and was manager of one blind organisation for war wounded and another one for civilians where it was particularly seeing to jobs. That they had jobs, the usual blind jobs but more than that, it was a university with extra courses. My father went into town every day and we bought, in fact, we bought a tandem and learned to be in front with a heavy father at the back. I know my mother and I was, it was not easy at first, later it was fine.
AM: How old were you?
GW: I was then eleven, twelvish.
AM: Eleven.
GW: And it had a little, two little clips and if I had, I had to have my father’s permission. I had to ask him because he would notice it. If it was just a plain road, not up or down, perhaps down a little bit I could put my feet on there and he would do the pedalling himself, [laugh] so that was, that was great. We went swimming every day. When we were in, lived in the centre of the city there were open air swimming pools but then we went and swam in a dead arm of a river.
AM: Ok.
GW: We would cycle half an hour to that spot and there was what was called a dead arm where they stored logs and that’s where we would bathe and my father, incredibly brave, he’d just rely on us for those but yeah he loved that. So for us, really I mean for all of us, this move out which we’d cursed because it was so far out from anything that was going on then was a blessing of course as the war went on. So that was my childhood.
AM: That was your childhood.
GW: With a very, well my mother had given up her studies but very bright, intelligent. It was that lovely, with two older brothers both very bright, one older sister, very happy family life.
AM: Lovely, it sounds lovely.
GW: Yes, yes.
AM: And then the war came.
GW: Well the war at first didn’t touch us one bit, for a long time. We had air raid shelters and we would go down and we had banks in it but nothing happened. We heard the planes follow the S [unclear] line in to Berlin and out and that was it but no, I wasn’t there at the end of the war because we were, I would have reached the last year at the school and we were all sent out to be called up by the, there was the organisation the Arbeitsdienst. It was a Nazi, well, organisation where every girl had to do, I think, a half a year. My sister had to do it but instead of it we were supposed to be called up but they forgot me because, oh yes because of the Berlin schools were evacuated and so my mother sent me to a boarding school in Potsdam which is just outside Berlin.
AM: Yes, yeah.
GW: Which, in a peninsula, paradise.
AM: So your memory of it, apart from hearing the planes, is being in paradise.
GW: Yes.
AM: In Potsdam.
GW: Even we didn’t, that wasn’t in the flight path then but we just had if there had been a long air raid we would have lessons either cut off or later, to get a bit more sleep but that was a very, very lovely time and then we were supposed to be sent home, supposed to be called up. Nobody called for me but I knew that girls were used to train young horses and I’d done a bit of riding, not very much. So I thought that rather than be called up I got into that and my record for falling off was six times one morning.
AM: In one morning, what were the horses being?
GW: Between six and the eleven, well they were very young.
AM: What were they trained for?
GW: They were trained you see but since they weren’t on full rations they were comparatively very mild. They hadn’t got the strength to —
AM: Ok.
GW: To be naughty. [Laughs}
AM: Were you on rations during the war? Your family?
GW: Sorry?
AM: Were your family on limited rations during the war?
GW: Yes but my mother was a very good manager with the garden and things. We didn’t starve, food was a bit boring, the hard time came after the war. Now, it sounds perhaps cruel but my father, now you’d think it’s nothing, he was seventy but he couldn’t, it took three hours to get into Berlin after the war because the Russians had taken tracks back. Don’t think I’m blaming them, they had suffered enough and so the train journey wasn’t smooth. It had to go on to the side to let the other one past, long journey into Berlin but my father still tried to work but it didn’t work and he died, I mean he had got a dicky heart and he died in October ‘45.
AM: ’45.
GW: The winter.
AM: So right at the end of the war then.
GW: The winter would have been, the winter of ‘46 was the worst, ‘46/47 for rations, so he that would have been a very, very hard time.
AM: What happened to your two older brothers?
GW: My oldest brother had, after leaving school they had to do half a year in something called Arbeitsdienst, some organisation.
AM: What does that mean?
GW: Well they had to dig things. It was a sort of supposed to be a bit of Nazi education or what but what did he [pause] well he didn’t, he didn’t work of course, he was good in three languages so he was an interpreter. It was, yes, ’36 Olympics.
AM: Ok.
GW: He walked about with three bands; French, English, Italian [laughs]
AM: How wonderful.
GW: And had a marvellous time.
AM: I would imagine he did.
GW: And the other one was too young, the other one was taken prisoner in March ’45 in, in Russia, in the Soviet Union.
AM: So they were both in the army.
GW: Yes, yes. The older one was a sort of pulled in straight away, the younger one then later when he was old enough and he spent four and a half years in a Soviet prison camp. So that —
AM: Gosh.
GW: But when Tom and he met they talked about prison camps. [laughs]
AM: I can imagine. I don’t know, well —
GW: Well no, the Russian one was worse but both had learned as much as they could, Tom had learned German, my brother had learned all sorts of things. They used their time, there were ways that they learned that but he came home in [pause] ’48 or ‘49 I think.
AM: So he was still in the prisoner of war camp right up to 1949?
GW: Yes.
AM: Gosh.
GW: Yes, yes and if you, well you can always cut out, can’t you? At that time quite a few prisoners were coming home and they were announced who would arrive in Berlin next morning. That was around, announced on the radio at 10 o’clock at night and my mother who then worked for Quakers and we’d moved. Her first job, her first job she ever had but wonderful. Well, my mother just got home at 10 o’clock, turned the wireless on, heard my brother’s name and so didn’t know whether it was hallucination or what was this, a few minutes, a few pebbles at the window, the parson, the local parson had listened in and he came to tell her. Wonderful wasn’t it?
AM: You’re making me cry.
GW: Yes, well wonderful that, I mean, that was great. So now by that time I had been in West Germany but I came home and there he was, wonderful. He tried [pause] yes he tried some social work training and he was [pause] it was far, I mean, he was far too clever for that sort of level the training and then he remembered before he was called up he had done a term or two at the Institute for Dramatic Studies and that counted as having been at university then and so he got in again, because it was still a long, long waiting list to get in to university. So he got in, in his second term he did research and got his doctorate, Professor, Professor of Sociology and quite fantastic, wrote books and —
AM: Wonderful.
GW: Still stayed the nice big brother.
AM: And where —
GW: But he then died. Yes.
AM: Where did you meet Tom?
GW: Tom, I met at this, my mother worked at a Quaker centre run by Americans and they had arranged, they called it a seminar, youngsters from all sorts of countries coming together and having lectures and doing things together. Now Tom had been doing, Tom had got a science degree really but after the war he, he got in to Cambridge doing German and Russian and he’d gone to a seminar in Germany and the Americans, they had education officers because Germany hadn’t got a government or anything.
AM: What year was this Gabby?
GW: I beg your pardon.
AM: What year was this?
GW: That would have been in forty, did he come in ’48 or, yes, ’47 or ’48 and he went. Well, after he’d done a degree in German here first and then went to a seminar because, to get some practice and the American education officer took a shine to him because most of the young Americans on that course went into the woods with the frauleins rather than go to lectures [laughs] So she suggested that he go to Berlin to this seminar. So that’s how we met. Yes, that’s when I had evenings.
AM: So you were there as a student or?
GW: No.
AM: No.
GW: No. I’d done, well my, two of the leaving certificates were supposed to have been given to me because I couldn’t have been going on. So I was doing, had I started at that? I started an apprenticeship at a publishing firm.
AM: Ok.
GW: And my mother was there as, they called her hausmutter. You know, she looked after people at that centre and so that’s how I came to come to those open evenings and as far as I’m concerned it was love at first sight.
AM: Wonderful.
GW: And then my tactful mother gave me a photo of all of them [laughs] when they went and then Tom wrote because he wanted a girlfriend to form a correspondence with some girl but that was a sort of a bit of getting into contact and so we started writing to each other and he came to Berlin at Christmas. Nothing nearly happened because he and my brother who had just come home were comparing notes.
AM: About being prisoners of war.
GW: Yes but it did happen and we got married and I came here in 1950.
AM: And here you are.
GW: So that was —
AM: And you’ve been here ever since.
GW: Yes. Well —
AM: Were people ok with you when you came? You know the fact that you were German, that it was fairly soon after the war.
GW: I was pretty, I was pretty fluent in English.
AM: Ok.
GW: Because for some silly reason because English is easier to start with certainly and it used to be first foreign language French but it had been changed to English so I’d done seven years or six or so years of English. So, no, I was pretty, pretty good at it.
AM: Good.
GW: Yes.
AM: And people were ok.
GW: People were fine, people were fine. There was another German and I and we once had letters, both of us and that was the only thing we’ve ever had.
AM: Nasty letters you mean?
GW: Yes, yes.
AM: Yeah.
GW: No idea what that was. No, people were fine.
AM: Good.
GW: Of course by that time Tom had done two years teaching when we got married, so he was established, that was near London, in Essex. Yes, two years and then he got a headship because of all of his, you know, qualifications and things.
AM: Ok.
GW: They wanted these, it was a grammar school of course, they wanted it to have a technical bias, which he was equipped for with his engineering degree.
AM: Yeah.
GW: And then of course it changed here but we had a very happy time in Coleshill.
AM: In this lovely house.
GW: Well that, of course, that was a widow, we think and of course it’s a relatively big house, we think that they had hoped to have a family and didn’t and we bought it off the widow.
AM: So you bought it.
GW: Which was sad for them because, but wonderful for ours.
AM: I’m going to switch the recording off and get Tom’s story.
GW: Yes.
AM: Of how he met you.
GW: Right.
AM: He got married in ’45.
GW: So your older brother, he was, who was he an interpreter for?
AM: Oh Americans.
GW: Ok.
AM: He was in the American part of Germany, you know, they were —
GW: You said that he spoke the languages.
AM: They were divided in to four parts.
GW: Yes.
AM: And he was in the American part and he married in ’45 and that family they couldn’t imagine him to go on studying and then, no. Having very restricted life with not much money so he didn’t, he didn’t get on, he was an interpreter, had good jobs but nothing compared with the little brother who’d always been in the shadow and then became a well known person so it was a bit hard for him.
GW: Yeah.
AM: So your sister.
GW: Yes, yes, my sister was in Berlin when the Russians came.
AM: Oh.
GW: And the, where we lived was the most northern tip of Berlin. So the first tip that many Russian soldiers got to and you can imagine that they went crazy but my mother, who was very clever managed to hide; my sister, a cousin, our maid and herself, in all sorts of places. So they all escaped the attention of the Russians, it was, it was fantastic.
AM: I’m guessing it was dreadful though.
GW: Oh, terrible yes. I didn’t know anything about them for six months.
AM: Remind me where were you at that time?
GW: I was in West, I was in West Germany you see. I’d gone to my mother’s best friend in the end.
AM: Ok.
GW: There was an uncle but he obviously didn’t want any more in his household because things were short but there was my mother’s best friend and I was absolutely convinced she would take me and I, so I set off to see her. Train journey from Dortmund, which is Cologne area to where she lived, Frankfurt which was only in the middle, took five days.
AM: Five days?
GW: Yeah.
AM: Good Lord.
GW: Mainly on goods trains and things. Now, for a youngster without children to care or old people to care or things see, it wasn’t, it wasn’t such a hardship.
AM: Was it an adventure?
GW: Exactly.
AM: So how old were you then?
GW: Yes, yes.
AM: You would be?
GW: I was seventeen.
AM: Seventeen.
GW: Had I [pause] Or had I, no, I was just eighteen, yes, yes.
AM: Yes.
GW: So I went to this friend in Frankfurt and then there was an exchange of people going from the east to the west in the morning and west to east in the afternoon, something strange, of crowds to let people get home and I did that.
AM: This was before the wall of course, before the wall was built.
GW: Oh yes, before the wall, yes, yes.
AM: But still you had to go across the sectors.
GW: Yes. Oh yes they were. Oh yes they had, you had to have permits for instance to get into the west, in to the American part also. It wasn’t, it wasn’t all open but I got through and I got to Berlin and I went back to school and the headmistress, about that height, had started school again about three weeks after the end of the war, fantastic woman. So, and of course we were all, all hungry. We were all had difficult times and if somebody said, ‘We’re going, I’m sorry I can’t come to school we’re going to try to get some potatoes,’ kind of travelling to that. Everybody said, ‘Good luck.’
AM: Bring us some.
GW: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
GW: Yes, yes. So I then, did I go straight, oh no, I worked for a publishing firm as an apprentice. Germany has always apprentices and exams in anything and I did the apprenticeship and did the exam but by then the university started. The university was the main, the university had been in the east, but freie universitat, free university, started off in the west and I managed to get in to that and started studying there. So that but then I didn’t complete my degree because in Germany you go on and on and on and then when you think you’re ready to go you got to a professor and think, ‘I think I’m ready.’ Quite unorganised [laughs] so I came, we got married and I have got an Open University degree.
AM: Have you now? Wonderful.
GW: Yeah. So I’ve got that.
[recording paused]
GW: I’ve been ‘36 or ’37, ’38 would have been, my father, who used to write a diary said that thirteen boys from my brother’s class were continuing their education abroad and that was in ’33.
AM: In ’33.
GW: And thirteen left.
AM: Crikey, right, right. Your turn, your turn Tom.
[pause]
AM: Can I introduce it first? So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody and the interviewee is Tom Wilson and the interview is taking place at Tom’s home in Coleshill in Warwickshire on Sunday the 16th of August.
TW: And you’re from the north.
AM: I am, I’m from near Manchester.
TW: Are you?
AM: I am.
TW: See when you got there it was hooome.
AM: Oh right. Hooome hoome.
TW: It hit me [laughs]
AM: Tom, tell me a little bit about where you were born and your childhood. Just a little bit about when you were born and your childhood.
TW: Right, New Zealand parents, both families had emigrated in the 1880s and father went to university in New Zealand and eventually became a Doctor of Science in electrical engineering and that’s important because I’d gone to Bishop Vesey’s Grammar School here. I’d been a sergeant in the OTC and my inclination was join up straight away when the war started. My father was dead against that because he, he’d been an electrical engineer in New Zealand and he’d been whipped off to England in 1915 as a researcher into the German war effort and so I wanted to join up immediately the war started and he said, ‘No fear, Engineers aren’t cheap cannon fodder’ and father had gone on working on German, secret scientific things right, really I suppose until, until the [pause] he was in charge of a big research place belonging to GEC, General Electric Company and they were doing work for Britain. I think, right until he died more or less and so the idea of my joining up in the infantry struck him as being absolutely fantastic stupid.
AM: Right.
TW: And I ought to be working in research or something and in fact, what I’d done was in 1939 I’d started a university course in electrical engineering which was father’s racket and I went on working at that and from time to time on secret things until my, kind of hero at school was killed. He didn’t come home from, he was flying a Spitfire, Spitfires and he didn’t come home from Brest after a big Bomber Command attack on Brest and a on the, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were there then and so that’s what father had been involved in. Whereas my inclination, having been in the OTC, having all the time been infantry, was to join the infantry right against father. At any rate, what happened was, he insisted that I did the engineering course, electrical engineering course at Birmingham University which I did until, one of my, kind of, best friends or heroes from the Corps at Bishop Vesey’s, he didn’t come back from an intelligence. He was flying Spitfires and he didn’t come back from a trip to Brest. Taking photographs there of course of everything that was there and when that happened I immediately went to cycle in to Birmingham from the university and volunteered for the air force and the air force took me on in the first civilian entry of students working on radar.
AM: Ok.
TW: On airborne radar and I stayed working with that until Bob Ayers was killed and I then immediately joined the air force and so I had two years working on manufacture of, and design and everything else of British airborne radar.
AM: Right.
TW: And when I volunteered for that I was trained first of all and then sent off to fly on a special duty squadron in Northern Ireland and having done three months on that I did, went on to a special duty squadron in Scotland and then I was shot down from there.
AM: How many, how many operations did you actually do? Or was it all, was it radar work?
TW: It was radar work.
AM: Ok.
TW: And I did thirteen really, the air force didn’t count the last as ops.
AM: [laughs] If you didn’t get back?
TW: That’s right.
AM: What, what position did you take on the plane? Were you the navigator?
TW: No. I flew as a navigator.
AM: Ok.
TW: But we had a navigator on the planes.
AM: So you were the extra man.
TW: I was the extra chap with a whole, kind of laboratory of apparatus of various clever things, all highly secret and I was shot down, became a prisoner of war. Had two years as a prisoner of war and then came back to this country, in ’45 it was, wasn’t it? That’s right.
AM: Where were you shot down Tom? Can you remember?
TW: Yes, I know where I was shot down, I was shot down in Holland [unclear]
AM: [unclear]
TW: Which is The Hague and so I had two years as a prisoner of war.
AM: Whereabouts? Which camp were you in?
TW: Stalag Luft Drei. Stalag Luft iii.
AM: Three.
TW: Yeah.
AM: What sort of things did you get involved in in the camp? Did you get involved in learning or in any of the shows that they put on or anything like that?
TW: I was in, I was in the orchestra and of course I was also very much involved in escape.
AM: Oh tell me about, tell me about that.
TW: The wooden horse escape. I was asked to join in my first week or so and so that’s the big thing, I’m the oldest survivor of the wooden horse.
AM: Of the wooden horse, so what was your role within that? What did you actually do?
TW: Vaulting over the wooden horse. So, which was —
AM: It was a vault, a gym box.
TW: Yes. That’s right.
AM: And you, you were one of the people who vaulted over it.
TW: That’s right.
AM: While they were tunnelling underneath.
TW: And then eventually it was over and the wooden horse was carried back in to the cantina. I had to take over and make certain that there were no traces left, that everything was cleared up and looked normal.
AM: And what were they doing underneath?
TW: Building a tunnel.
AM: To go under the wire and —
TW: We fixed it, we didn’t put the wooden horse against the barbed wire, that would have been obvious but we had it fairly near and the tunnel was done from under the horse, out and under the wire.
AM: So a lot shorter distance than if they’d been doing it from one of the huts.
TW: That right, not so short that it became immediately suspicious. On the other hand Charlie, that’s the chap who was in charge of German security was very suspicious of the wooden horse all its time and after the wooden horse escape I was of course involved in all kinds of secret things in the camp.
AM: What sort of secret things?
TW: Well, tunnels and I taught German.
AM: To the other, you taught the other prisoners German?
TW: Yeah, yeah, I’d teach, yeah.
AM: Yeah.
TW: And was involved in trying to work out what they were doing the whole time.
AM: Yeah. Gosh. So at the, at the end of the war then were you marched? Were you involved in the marches?
TW: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
TW: At the end of the war we were certainly [pause] I’d managed to fall. I was the breakfast chap in our room so I made breakfast and on some kind of day in, in the autumn I had fallen down carrying two, there must have been three or four gallon boiling water things.
AM: Oh gosh.
TW: And I lost all the skin on this foot.
AM: On your right, right foot?
TW: Yeah, that’s right and so before the big march started I was on a train, on goods wagons. They’re always, when you read books about escaping they write about cattle trucks, they weren’t cattle trucks, it’s only that being goods wagons they had painted on the side forty men or twelve horses and that was information to the German railways that that’s what they could load on the things.
AM: Ok.
TW: In fact we had fifty five on our truck but there it was.
AM: So where was the, where were you going on the train?
TW: We went to Nuremberg. It took from, I think Monday ‘til Friday and we were unloaded at Nuremberg, in the prison camps there and then I was immediately, I’d been teaching German in Luft iii, I was teaching German again and I found the Nuremberg camp was largely American. There was some Royal Air Force but it was largely American people and quite often I would find myself acting as interpreter between American Colonels and German people.
AM: Gosh, and then what happened after? Where did you go next after Nuremberg?
TW: From Nuremberg we marched, beginning on the 4th of April ’46.
AM: ’45.
TW: No it wasn’t in ’46. It was ’48 wasn’t it? The war ended in —
AM: ’45.
TW: In ’45 and this was three years later and we started marching and we marched until we got to the largest camp, the largest prison camp in Germany and we were stuffed into that and while we were there we were liberated by the American army and were put into the, we were kept in to, kept inside the prison camp and eventually we were driven to the nearest aerodrome to be flown home and it didn’t happen from there. We had to march off somewhere else and we met a whole of squadron of Lancs, Lancaster’s and they brought us back here.
AM: Yeah and what was it like when you got back? Deloused, did you have to be deloused?
TW: Yeah, when we were liberated, I think it was somewhere in May ’45.
AM: Yeah.
TW: We were liberated there and then. We were liberated in that our camp was invaded. It became an American camp because it was the Americans that liberated us and then after about, well it was in, in fact it was the end of the war was the 8th of May ’45 and I was loaded on to a Lanc' on the 10th .
AM: Was that your first time on a Lancaster?
TW: Yeah.
AM: Because you’d flown Wellingtons I think?
TW: Wellingtons, yeah.
AM: Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
AM: And back home.
TW: Back home, yeah. That was very quick. Now what had happened, oh yes the camp was being evacuated and they weren’t being evacuated by Lancaster's but by [pause] DC3s weren’t they?
AM: I’m not sure, Dakotas? Maybe, anyway —
TW: What the Americans were using and as we left the camp to drive to the aerodrome in big German transports there were big columns of black smoke to the north of us and this was where one of these DC3s had swung on take-off and it had ploughed into five other DC3s, all loaded with American ex-prisoners and we saw this before we left our camp and when we got there they were just piles of DC3s absolutely full of American ex-prisoners of war and I was told to, it was May the 8th, it was VE day and I was told to take my chaps off in to the town and find them billets and so I found them all billets and was left with two others. That’s right and we were given then a girl’s home. She wasn’t there, where she was I don’t know but I read her knitting magazine and then the next day, that’s right, and we went off to the aerodrome and we found the aerodrome was absolutely empty. It had been, because of the accident the Americans had said it was an impossible aerodrome, it was too small.
AM: Right.
TW: You see, it was in the middle of a wood for one thing and so, at any rate I was sent off to find billets. I had one hundred and eighty five roughly of our prisoners and I had to find billets for them. Whereas the Americans that had been on this aerodrome, they were all on board planes but the smoke I’d seen before we left the prison camp, it was one aircraft had swung on take-off when the pilot had opened up the throttles and he ploughed into five other aircraft and the Americans in result, had immediately said that this aerodrome was impossible, it was too small and the next morning I got up, got all the chaps I’d billeted and marched off to this aerodrome because we’d been told on leaving it that I was to return the next day and there’d be further orders for me. I returned the next day and there were no Americans there at all.
AM: Gone.
TW: They’d all gone and I just got, what we did was we lay on the grass of this aerodrome for three days. There was a German in the forest who had done what Hitler had said, not many did but Hitler had said that when the end of the war came Germans weren’t to hand themselves over as prisoners. They were to hide up somewhere with guns and ammunition and shoot western troops until they were out of ammunition and so one of these characters was in the woods bordering the aerodrome and he couldn’t have had much ammunition. It meant that he fired at us probably about every two or three hours, one shot.
AM: Did he actually get anybody? Did he manage to shoot anybody?
TW: No, no.
AM: Oh good.
TW: Mainly he got his gun tipped down and was catching, firing in to the ground and the bullet was then coming to us on the aerodrome making a hell of a noise but it was hitting the ground and then shooting up and that was that. At any rate I had my, I had a hundred and eighty plus prisoners I was in charge of and having had them billeted on German platz that one night, we just felt so tired we just slept on the aerodrome.
AM: Slept on the ground.
TW: We were lying on the floor so that we weren’t presenting a target for this character that was holed up in the forest and so we’d arrived on the Monday. We were lying on the aerodrome on the Tuesday and the Wednesday, so, 8th, 9th 10th and then nothing. There had been aircraft there when we arrived, they took off absolutely full of Americans and we spent one night. I had found billets in town, no Germans in the billet I was in which was the last one. It had had a German woman in and I read her knitting books.
AM: You read her knitting books.
TW: Yeah and then the next morning I marched all of my hundred and eighty blokes on to the aerodrome again. There was no one there.
AM: They’d all gone.
TW: They’d all gone and we just lay on the ground.
AM: Just laid there.
TW: And slept.
AM: When you got, when you got back home.
TW: Yes.
AM: What happened then? Did you go on leave? Did you come back to Birmingham?
TW: Came back to Birmingham. In fact, what had happened was that we flew from Germany and since it was an American camp, an American evacuation and we’d been liberated by the Americans we went to the American prisoner liberation camps which was in France and I was there two days. No, no Americans around, they’d gone off since this place was now condemned as impossible as an aerodrome and on the Thursday a whole squadron of Dakotas came in. They came in and landed and we got up and ran out to meet them. ‘Where are we?’ they said and so I gave orders to all my blokes to get on board and I said, ‘We’ll tell you when we’re on board’ and they’d flown us to this centre, Liege or somewhere in France and from there the Americans were being taken to a gathering camp, Brittany, where they were waiting for boats and on the other hand we British were told, I was told to report to, the British Embarkation Officer was there and I reported to him and so, immediately I had to produce lists of my hundred and eighty chaps in, enough to fill an aircraft and they weren’t allowed to fly without these lists on board, so that if the aircraft crashed and people were killed they could give us names.
AM: Right.
TW: Or it didn’t happen. At any right, I’d had to write out these lists when I eventually made contact with the Americans and I’d had, on each occasion to write out — I started off with, I think it was twenty five, I started with twenty five prisoners on a Dakota and then the Americans thought they might manage to squeeze thirty on board and then they decided that they might have to just send twenty and so, on each occasion I lost complete sleep that night and I spent the night writing out, they had to be quadruplicates, four copies for each aircraft for a number of aircraft that would take our hundred and eighty and it meant I was writing out these lists all night.
AM: All night.
TW: Yeah.
AM: Where did you, where did they land back in Britain?
TW: We had three days on this airfield or [unclear] airfield. In fact I’d gone back to it, marched back to it and it was condemned as too small but I wouldn’t move and there were no Americans there at all.
AM: No.
TW: And we were there on our own so we just lay on the floor and slept and on the Thursday, why was I staying there? Because I knew that the Thursday was Ascension Day and I thought Ascension Day might be lucky.
AM: Might be lucky for you.
TW: Yeah.
AM: What did you do after the war was over?
TW: I went to Cambridge.
AM: You went to Cambridge and took a degree in —
TW: Took a degree in German and Russian.
AM: In German and Russian.
TW: Yeah.
AM: And then what did you do? What work did you do after that?
TW: I taught German and Russian. I bought two copies, two successive, no, three copies of The Times Educational Supplement and read through them to see what there was in the way of jobs and the first week I found two posts in London, for French teachers and this the third day it was a school in Essex and they wanted someone that would teach German and Russian, so I went there.
AM: So you went there.
TW: Yeah. I immediately applied to the schools that wanted French teachers but I never got a reply from them. On the other hand I got a reply from Essex to their advertisement in The Times Educational Supplement on the third day and I went there.
AM: So you went there. Where did you meet Gabby? How did you meet Gabby after the war?
TW: Right. So we had the end of the war and I decided that I must make certain that my German was faultless and so I looked up advertisements and answered two advertisements wanting language teachers in London and around about there and on the third day it was Essex, Romford.
AM: Yes.
TW: And so I applied to all these advertisements and the Romford Head wrote back straight away and I went for an interview and I got the job.
AM: Got the interview there.
TW: Yeah. There were two others being interviewed with me but they hadn’t got either German or Russian, they’d got French and so I got the job.
AM: Wonderful.
TW: And then I stayed there eight years and the Head advised me it was about time that I was applying for headships and I’d already decided to do that and Coleshill came up and I applied for it and I got it. So it meant that after the war I replied to two, to three advertisements, three different schools and I was offered the post at both of them so I was very lucky.
AM: Yeah, brilliant. I’m going to switch —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tom and Gabi Wilson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AWilsonGT150816, PWilsonT1501, PWilsonT1502
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:03:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Gabi Wilson grew up in Berlin and was a schoolgirl in 1939. She discusses one brother training as an interpreter and another brother returning from Russian prisoner of war camps. She worked as an apprentice at a publisher firm. She met her husband, Tom at university, they married in 1950 and moved to London where he became a head teacher.
Tom Wilson came from an academic family in New Zealand. He studied engineering and worked on radar before volunteering for the Air Force. He flew 13 operations as a navigator before his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war. He met his wife at a lecture.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
New Zealand
Poland
England--London
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Nuremberg
Poland--Żagań
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1945
1946
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Yvonne Walker
bombing
C-47
childhood in wartime
escaping
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
Lancaster
military living conditions
prisoner of war
radar
shelter
shot down
sport
Stalag Luft 3
Wellington
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crompton, Norman John Russel
N J R Crompton
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. Collection contains correspondence between Lieutenant C L Fackrell and his daughter, identity and coupon documents and a photograph of Pilot Officer N J Compton's officers refresher course.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Norman Russell John Crompton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Crompton, NJR
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AIR MAIL LETTER CARD
BY AIR MAIL
CL Fackrell Lieut.
Free Xmas Letter Card.
[two ink stamps]
Margaret Hodel Fackrell,
Milford House,
108, Main Road,
[underlined] SIDCUP. [/underlined]
Kent.
[underlined] England. [/underlined]
[GREETINGS stamp]
[underlined] “C/O KARACHI AIR”. [/underlined]
[page break]
[underlined] From Lieut. C.L. Fackrell (G 12) – 1 MA, Dehra Dinn (U.D.), India. 9/11/42. [/underlined]
To my darling daughter Margaret,
From her daddy in India.
Sweet Capsie,
For the second time I am away from you at Christmas, &, just as at the first time, the Bara Sahib who looks after us has been pleased to put me in a place of peace & comfort; yet, even so, little one, I tell you truly that I would [underlined] very [/underlined] much prefer to be at home with you, & your Dearest-of-all-Mummies, & the Grannies, & Gran’pop – all our loved ones at “Milford” & “Strathmere” - , & would willingly exchange my power & plenty for the hazards and discomforts of a home under the shadow of war. Do you say in your prayers, my pretty one, “Please may Daddy come home for Merry Christmas next year” - & he’ll never go away from you again.
[underlined] What [/underlined] a lot has happened to us – just you-kind & me-kind, eh? – since we had our last little chat: you have grown into a big girlie, mischievous & full of fun, just as your
[page break]
[underlined] 2 [/underlined]
Mummie [sic] & Daddy like you to be, with soft-as-silk fairy hair – or is it the Sun which makes it look like that? – looking a trifle [underlined] too [/underlined] serious most times, perhaps, yet [underlined] very, [/underlined] very much like your Uncle Ken when he was little; playing with pussy, dancing with Doggyy, chuckling & chattering - & very lovable.
And Daddy? He was soon changed from the serenity of Cyprus to the severity of Lyrenaica, with sand-storms & ‘shell’-storms & salted water & scorpions; all bombs, & no beer; battles, & no bread; with the mercyless [sic] sun above, & the mercyless [sic] rock beneath, & the mercyless [sic] vacancy all around, save for wrecked machines - & wrecked men; giant machines, wee machines, flying machines, crawling machines, iron machines – but all war machines - & wrecked men: things, dear one, that you [underlined] must [/underlined] never know, & we pray God you [underlined] will [/underlined] never know, nor anyone ever, any more.
But in all this, in a place from which all ideals had fled, & all the prizes of civilisation in exile, there was one who never ceased, every day, to think of you, & those around you, & was sorry for your fears, & trials & hardships, & thereby held fast to faith, faith that he would be spared for you; & sure enough a miracle one day sent him back “post-haste”, to go way over the sea to the great & wonderful land of India, there to go to “College” & prepare for a new station: and now your Daddy is an Officer, & expecting that the next year will be a re-currence of the events of the last. But we shall win through, for each others sake – won’t we, pet?
For the present, life is wonderfully easy: I have a temporary appointment as the Colonel’s [indecipherable word], & have a desk next his in the grandest of all the offices here; have to be present (dare I say “work”?) from 1030 – 1.30, & 3 to 5, feeling [underlined] ever [/underlined] so important (!), & spend my evenings in my bungalow – after a bath, & tea, & maybe writing letters to Mummy; maybe an hour w/ my pal, studying Urdu; sometimes Choir practice – newly formed this very week; Dinner in Mess at 8.30 – then (except for an occasional film) then do I settle in my armchair, w/ my pipe; & read or think; & read Mummy’s stories about you and Biddy & Sam-pig & Scottie & Teddy & Blue Duck – [underlined] and [/underlined] mud-pies! - & wish so hard that I could pick up my little ”Mick-in-wee-dungarees” & squeeze her tight in my arms, & hear her tell me about Danson Lake, & planting cabbages, & picking flowers, & mimicking Mummy & taking Mumsie for walks, & visits from Grandma & Gran’pop, & Uncle Ken who loves you as much as I, & how you “make eyes” at him & Uncle Gordon – oh! so much. And so, sweet lassie, we must pray hard that next year we may truly say to each other – “It’s a Happy Christmas.” From Your Loving Daddy.
[page break]
CL Fackrell Lieut.
“In English.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from C L Fackrell to his daughter Margaret
Description
An account of the resource
Writes to her from India on second Christmas away saying he is well looked after but would prefer to be with her at home with all the family. Ask her to pray that he will be home next Christmas. Writes of his activities and adds poetic vision of war in the desert. Mentions he is at college in India and describes his current activities.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
C L Fackrell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-11-09
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three page handwritten letter and envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EFackellHodel421109
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
British Army
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Kent
India
India--Dehra Dūn
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-11-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
childhood in wartime
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crompton, Norman John Russel
N J R Crompton
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. Collection contains correspondence between Lieutenant C L Fackrell and his daughter, identity and coupon documents and a photograph of Pilot Officer N J Compton's officers refresher course.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Norman Russell John Crompton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Crompton, NJR
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BY AIR MAIL
AIR MAIL
LETTER CARD
[postmark]
[postage stamp]
Miss Margaret Hodel Fackrell,
Milford House,
108 Main Road,
[underlined] SIDCUP, [/underlined]
Kent.
England.
“c/o Karachi Air”
[Unit Censor India stamp]
CL. Hodel-Fracknell
Lieut.
[page break]
Fackrell, C.L.W. (Lieut)
Milacademy, India
My Darling Margaret,
So you are 2! My word, I can scarcely believe it, but find it far easier to recall this period two years ago, at your [underlined] real [/underlined] birthday which, after many promises, came actually quite suddenly, & on the one day it was not expected.
From that day I thought I was to have an unhappy time, for I knew I wd [sic] have to go away from Mummy & Milford then, back to my Regt. in the North, but I [inserted] was [/inserted] wrong, for the six months immediately after yr [sic] birth were, in fact the happiest I have [underlined] ever [/underlined] known – much happier even than now, for then I was able to have you & Mummy with me - & I know that I shall never have so happy nor so successful a time again.
That brought us [inserted] to [/inserted] Aug. 42: the next period (again of 6 months – strange how my life nowadays fits into separate periods of [underlined] exactly [/underlined] this length!) – was a [underlined] very [/underlined] dark one, taking me away from you all, thousands of miles across the sea to winter with the war in the “Middle East”, but [deleted] the [/deleted] a further six months saw a change of fortune and culminated in my being commissioned
[page break]
into the Indian Army – exactly 1 year after leaving my Dear Rabbit who is now, I believe, very much a “Tom-Boy”! Six months again (up to your present birthday), & what do we find? Why that Daddy has been privileged to serve on the Staff of the Indian branch of Sandhurst, & is [deleted] about to [/deleted] accepted for a position on the Administration at A.A Headquarters. Now what is the next 6 months going to bring? And will a further period bring me home to you – or you to me, perhaps? ….
I have not had any photos of you since that of August, & hope there are some more “on the way” for otherwise I just cannot imagine what you are like (tho’ I know you must be very nice).
It is not nearly so cold here now, but a couple of weeks ago I thought I’d have been bringing you a polar bear instead of an elephant! Perhaps, after all, I’ll bring you the gee-gee I ride before breakfast, ‘cos he’s a very nice gee-gee, ‘cept when he tries to throw me off – but that’s only becos [sic] I’m such a poor rider, I expect. I’m sorry I can’t send you any presents, lassie, but it is not practicable: the things I’ve sent Mummie [sic] have not arrived, & nice things are not very easy to get nowadays. But when my ship comes home - & for once we can use that phrase literally – we’ll have heaps & heaps of fun & good times together. Till then be a [underlined] very [/underlined] good girlie & remember that your best friend will always be your Dadda
[page break]
Birthday Greetings
from
Your Own
Dadda.
Dhera Dun, India. 21st February ’43.
[page break]
C.L. Hodel Fackrell
Lieut., RA.
[underlined] “In English.” [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from C L Fackrell to his daughter Margaret
Description
An account of the resource
Writes to two year old daughter how sad he is to have been away from her. mentions his time in the middle east and then describes his training role in India. Concludes he is sorry he cannot send her any presents. Includes birthday greetings card.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
C L Fackrell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-02-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page handwritten letter card and envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EFackellHodel430221
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
British Army
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Kent
India
India--Dehra Dūn
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-02-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
childhood in wartime
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1417/26484/EFackrellHodel440101-010001.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1417/26484/EFackrellHodel440101-010004.2.jpg
9e710c3878a352ae4dcc499d2b51595a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crompton, Norman John Russel
N J R Crompton
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. Collection contains correspondence between Lieutenant C L Fackrell and his daughter, identity and coupon documents and a photograph of Pilot Officer N J Compton's officers refresher course.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Norman Russell John Crompton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Crompton, NJR
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BY AIR MAIL
AIR MAIL LETTER CARD
[postmark]
[postage stamp]
[inserted] Rd 8/2 [/inserted]
Miss Margaret Fackrell
Milford House,
108 Main road,
SIDCUP, Kent,
England.
[censor stamp]
C.L. Fackrell
[page break]
My Darling Margaret,
It’s a whole year since I wrote to you, but I think that you didn’t receive my last letter – at any rate, Mummy has never mentioned its receipt; so I’ll tell you what I said last time – (I kept a note of the gist of it) - & you’ll be having two letters in one.
Strangely, most of the thoughts expressed a year ago are applicable again now, for I am in a similar situation (i.e. due to “move on”) - & I have as much conjecture now as then! Well, lassie, this (roughly) is what I said to you a year ago:-
“So you are 2! I can scarcely believe it but find it easier to recall this period two years ago, at your [underlined] real [/underlined] birthday. From that day I thought I was to have an unhappy time for I knew I should have to go away from Mummy & “Milford”, back to my Regiment, but I was wrong, for the 6 months after your birthday were the happiest I have ever known & I know I shall never have so happy & successful a time again.
“that brought us to Aug. 42: the
[page break]
[underlined] 2 [/underlined] next period (again of 6 months) was a very dark one, taking me away from you all, across the sea, to winter with the war in the Middle East; but a [underlined] further [/underlined] 6 months saw a change of fortune & ended in my being commissioned into the Indian Army – exactly one year after leaving my Dear Rabbit who is now (I believe) very much a tomboy!
“Six months again – (up to now) - & we find that Daddy is serving with the staff at the I.M.A. (though only as a temporary attachment) & is accepted for a position on the administration of an A.A headquarters. – now what will the next 6 months bring …..? – and will a further similar period bring me home to you? … or you to me? ….
“I have not had any photos of you lately & hope there are some on the way for I can’t imagine what you are like (tho’ I know you must be very nice).
“Be a very good girl, & always love your Mummy well, & remember that you will always be loved by your own Dadda.”
Well, girlie, we haven’t come any nearer to each other since that was written, have we? The position is now very much as it was then, save that I [underlined] have [/underlined] had some photos of you, & nice ones too – some so nice that I’ve proudly shown them to the “Lady Colonel” & she thinks [underlined] Mummy [/underlined] must be very nice-looking
[page break]
[underlined] 3 [/underlined] “’Cos she couldn’t get such sweetness from her Daddy”!
You would love my cats, my dear one – one (“Mr. Pusskins”) has become a beautiful beast, & I wish I could give him to you: I shall be sorry to lose him, as I shall have to do when I move; wish I could think of some way to travel him, but it’s not very easy in this country, where the shortest journey takes at least 4 – 6 days. I wanted to get a photo of him for you – I may yet persuade a friend to take one, - but anyway, if you just imagine the nicest pussy in the whole world – that’s him.
Bye bye, my pet – try to be good always, - and we’ll have a lovely time when I come home.
With love from your
[underlined] Dadda [/underlined]
1st. Feb. 1944.
[page break]
[ink stamp]
Written in English
Sender’s
No. 11168
Rank LIEUT.
Name FACKRELL.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from C L Fackrell to his daughter Margaret
Description
An account of the resource
Write that he thinks she did not receive the last letter he sent a year ago. Repeats what he wrote in that letter about his activities in the middle east and India at the Indian Military Academy. Says he now has some pictures of her and tells her about his cats.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
C L Fackrell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-01
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EFackrellHodel440101
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
British Army
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Kent
India
India--Dehra Dūn
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
childhood in wartime