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Title
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Flowers, James
H J Flowers
Horrace James Flowers
Harry James Flowers
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. The collection concerns the wartime experiences of Flight Sergeant Horace James Flowers, a rear gunner with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. The collection consists of one oral history interview, a propaganda leaflet and nine photographs. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by James Flowers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Flowers, HJ
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HJF: My name is Horace James Flowers. I’m known as James. I am recording my, I served in the RAF for four and a half years from 1944 until 1947. I attained the rank of flight sergeant and flew, and served with 50 squadron and 44 squadron, 50 squadron at Skellingthorpe and 40 squadron, 44 squadron in Tiger Force at a number of squads, at a number centres, stations. I’m recording this for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 2nd of June, er, 2nd of June 2015 in, at xxxxx Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire. Yeah. I was born on the 9th of 10th, 9th of the 10th 1924 in a small village called Huthwaite in Nottinghamshire. I remained in Huthwaite, remained in Huthwaite during my education which was only secondary modern. Secondary modern. I then left school at fourteen, 1939. That sounds bad doesn’t it?
MJ: That’s alright.
HJF: I left school, I left school when I was fourteen. That was 1939. I became an apprentice butcher and loved the job. I absolutely loved it and if it hadn’t have been, hadn’t have been for the war, I’m certain I would have remained in that trade for the rest of my working life. However, Sutton in Ashfield area, Huthwaite and Sutton in Ashfield area rapidly became an area, a training area for a battalion of troops. And also there were Yanks at er, at Kingsmill Hospital and there were the paratroopers at Hardwick Hall five miles away. They was the elite and they used to come in at night time and the village had, all the village halls had been turned into dance halls so the town was thriving at night time, with hundreds probably thousands of, of soldiers coming in to be entertained for the night. It was so exciting. Now, the paratroopers were special. They were elite and when they used to come in they used to create skirmishes in the, you know, to a teenager it was so exciting and at the same time my brother had joined the navy and he was he was in, in, he was stationed at Brightlingsea at what they called [unclear] sorry [unclear]
[pause]. Yes.
HJF: German U-boats used to, used to speed in and torpedo any, any ship that was in the area. At the same time, at this particular time I had a girlfriend whose brother was in aircrew and he was a wireless operator and he used to come home at the weekends and I used to listen to his stories about his fly, what was happening while he was flying. This really stimulated my interest so I just had to get to it, get involved. Now, on the 18th of February 1943 I attended the, enlistment section-
[pause]
On the 18th of February 1943 I attended the recruitment section, recruitment place at Mansfield to be given a medical for aircrew which I passed A1. How excited I was when the medical officer told me that I’d passed A1. Not that my excitement was allowed to last long because shortly after the recruiting officer called me in to his office to give me the bad news. Now then, this is, ‘I’m very sorry to tell you, you can’t be accepted. We can’t accept anyone who is in a reserved occupation.’ I was completely devastated because I’d took a year to get in. I pleaded for them to change their mind, ‘Sorry you can only be accepted if the authorities release you from your reserved occupation.’ To a teenager desperate to volunteer this was terrible news. It felt as if a bomb had been dropped on me by the recruiting officer. My factory manager showed no sympathy at all. He firmly informed me that unless I was medically released I would have to remain with them until the end of the war. The problem was that I needed to be A1 to be accepted for air crew and unfit to be released from the reserved occupation. How do I get around that? Continuously I racked my brain to try and think of a way that I could overcome this problem. Months went by and I began to despair. It seemed as if my chance of joining the RAF had gone forever. At last I had an idea. I wondered, will it work? No matter whether it did or not I just had to try something. So with my heart in my mouth I arranged an appointment with my factory doctor. Attending the appointment I showed the doctor all the spots on my face, and telling him that I considered that the heavy fumes of the machine grinder on which, on which I was working was giving me dermatitis. I then requested that I should be released from this work. My case was so thin and I knew it but I had to try something. I then had to listen to the doctor giving me a real dressing down. How awful he made me feel. He ended his lecture by saying, ‘You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Men are dying for the likes of you.’ Feeling very subdued I then quietly said, ‘But doctor, I only want releasing from munitions because I volunteered and been accepted for air crew. The RAF won’t take me if you don’t release me.’ With my heart in my mouth I waited as he fixed his gaze on me for what seemed an eternity. He looked me straight in the eye. Then without another word he reached for his pen and signed my release. As I got up to leave the surgery he leaned forward and shook my hand and wished me luck. All these problems had taken a year to resolve. Is that?
MJ: Yes
HJF: Now, having reached my ninetieth year I can’t help thinking how much slimmer my chances of surviving this terrible war would have been if I’d been allowed to leave my reserved occupation in 1943. Although I knew that being a rear gunner was a very dangerous job with a very high casualty rate, so much so that rear gunners were named Charlies and that’s another name for stupid fool, it didn’t matter to me what others thought. This was the way I wished to serve my country. Yeah, so that goes on to my “Tail End Charlie’s Story”.
MJ: Ahum
HJF: This was the title I gave to my book which I’ve, which I’ve had produced, “A Tail End Charlie’s Story” ‘cause I think that fits the bill. Right, on the 6th of March 1944 I reported to the induction centre at Lords Cricket Ground, London along with hundreds more recruits for entry to the RAF. Lords Cricket Ground was used during the 1939 ‘45 war as an induction centre for air crew. A roll call, a roll call was made during which, to my astonishment, a second HJ Flowers’ name was called out. It was then that I first met Henry James Flowers. Henry told me that he came from a village called Bargoed in South Wales. From then onwards we became constant companions. We remained together during basic training at RAF Bridgnorth after which we were posted to RAF Stormy Down for air gunnery training. Fortunately, we were kept together during flying training and in actual fact ended up serving on both 50 and 44 squadron, squadrons. Now, ok, recruitment before I get on to?
MJ: You can put it whatever way you like.
HJF: Does that sound alright?
MJ: Yes it’s fine. It’s superb. I mean I know exactly what you mean when you said that London had had a right bash of it.
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: I mean, my nan got bombed out twice. You know, nothing left.
HJF: We got friends, we’ve got a friend that lost everything twice. Absolutely everything.
MJ: Yeah, yeah.
HJF: She lived near where I was stationed yeah.
MJ: ‘Cause the road that they lived in doesn’t exist.
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: And so on. You know people don’t-
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: Realise this sort of thing. Are you ready?
HJF: Yeah ok. After disembarking from the troop train at Bridgnorth railway station we formed up in threes. Shouldering our heavy kit bags we began the long march to camp. The last mile was up a steep hill. As new recruits, unfit, with no marching experience at all, all carrying a heavy kit bag the formation rapidly turned into a gaggle. By the time we reached the camp everyone was on the point of collapse. Next morning, after the recruits had been formed up on the parade ground the NCO in charge of the parade informed us that we’d be confined to barracks for the entire six weeks - square bashing, ‘You will not be allowed in public until you can be a credit to your uniform.’ From that moment on we spent every minute of every day drilling and exercising. My muscles screamed out from the strains. The course seemed never ending. Much to my surprise the strain became less. I was obviously getting fitter. Not content with keeping us hard all day we were also given guard duty at night. On Saturday and Sunday a percentage of recruits were picked out to stand guard throughout the weekend. It was just the luck of the draw as to whether your name would come out. By the end of the fourth week I was badly missing my girlfriend Eunice so despite the ban on boots, new boots, new recruits leaving camp I began to make plans. Now, having been on guard duty at a sentry box on the edge of the wood at the rear of the camp I knew there was a way in and out. Those on guard duty were given instructions to arrest anyone there but be that it may I let loads of them through expecting them to make the, make the favour, if I, if I needed it. I noticed. Now desperate to return home I was willing to risk anything. So after duty on the fourth Friday I slipped out of camp by the back way and began thumbing lifts. In uniform they came very easily and with a matter of hours I was back home again. Early next day I walked the two miles to my girlfriend’s house. This was the first time that Eunice had seen me in uniform and I knew that I’d created a good impression. We had a lovely day and a half together. I can still remember going for a walk that Sunday morning along a very attractive country walk known locally as Skegby Bottoms. The sun shone brightly as we sat there. I was at peace with the world. I wanted it to go on and on and on. Late Sunday night I successfully re-entered the camp through the back. Through the woods. In no time I was back in my billet. The moment Taffy saw me he exclaimed, ‘Your name was called out several times for guard duty over the weekend.’ ‘Oh dear,’ I thought, ‘Blimey I shall be on a charge on Monday morning’. Sure enough I was called off the parade ground and told to report to the commanding officer. Shaking like a leaf I stood to attention in front of him. ‘Sorry. I didn’t hear my name called out.’ Not impressed, he said ‘Fourteen days jankers and do it again and I’ll throw the book at you.’ Next day I reported to the cookhouse in full pike. Just my luck to be the only one on jankers, jankers at the time to peel the thousands and thousands of potatoes needed to feed a camp full of hungry airmen and then to wash the pots that had to be used for meals. Gosh it was hard work. You may have thought that all this effort made my weekend worthwhile. I’m in no doubt at all. It was.
Now then, what did I get to? 3rd of, 3rd of June 1944 see us arrive at Bridgnorth for flying training. Now this training was on Avro Ansons. It had one mid upper turret and we used to fire at drogues that used to come by with a, with a Spitfire travelling a drogue alongside us. And quite honestly, quite honestly it was I think, I think the pilot was, of the Spitfire, was in more danger of us hitting him than us hitting the drogue. Anyway, when, when we finished this course, at the end of this course I managed to get a day’s, a weekend off so I travelled home to see Eunice. She was in the Land Army near Grimley and I remember as I arrived at the, at the hostel, at the hostel Eunice was telling me about the, about someone who was getting married. One of the Land Army girls getting married. And I could feel that this was the, that there seemed to be a longing in her voice which suggested to me that this was the right time to once again, for the hundredth time ask her if she’d marry me. And so as she turned to me I said, ‘Well shall we get married then?’ and she said, ‘Yes, let’s.’ I’m not joking with you I could have fallen through the floor. Anyway, we decided there and then. She said, ‘What are you doing now?’ I said well I’m going now to Husbands Bosworth for a ten week course on OTU training and she says, ‘Ok when will that finish?’ Well we calculated it out that it would finish about October the 14th. She says, ‘Ok we’ll add a week to that. We’ll add a week to that. We’ll get married on the 21st of October.’ Not for one minute did we think the things that could happen in a flying training. So naïve we were. Anyway, a week before, two weeks before the October the 21st flying training, all flying training was cancelled through bad weather. We didn’t fly for nearly eight days. Comes the 20th, comes the 20th of, of October and I’m getting married the next day. I’d still got four hours flying to do that morning. Anyway, by sheer luck we got the flying training finished, finished by dinnertime. We then needed to, to get cleared from the station, and of course collect all our gear because we’re moving to another, another station. And, and we’d got, in those days, today if you wanted to get cleared from a section they do it on computer, can do it in five minutes. In our day we used to have to go to every section to get our chitty signed, mainly on foot. Fortunately, Taffy managed to borrow a couple, a couple of bikes. He was going to be my best man so he’s coming with me. We circulated and of course there’s a tremendous area in, in, on an RAF aerodrome and we circulated the area on these cycles and I’m certain that everybody, every section knew we were getting married because as we were, the next day every section and as we, the next day, and as we came in they immediately signed my chit. Bless them all. Anyway the admin section was closing at 5 o’clock. We arrived there at five minutes to five. The admin, the officer then cleared us from the section and, and he says, ‘Ok, right, you can go now. Report to RAF Wigsley on Monday the 23rd.’ I thought, bloody hell, two days. We then had to start [laughs] we then had to start our journey. Now in those days, in those days there was very little transport. We had to, we had to cadge lifts we had to catch buses, local buses, train journeys, local train journeys. It took us all night. We didn’t arrive in Sutton in Ashfield until half past eight on the Saturday the 21st. Having been awake all night I was absolutely shattered. Anyway we walked out of Sutton in Ashfield railway station and Eunice lived a mile to the right and I, and I lived two miles to the left. Taffy walked to tell Eunice we’d arrived. I walked the two miles to Huthwaite to, to my parent’s home. Now there was so much happening. The wedding was planned for 2.30. There was so much happening I never got any rest. I was absolutely cream crackered. By, I remember, I remember we were in, as we got in, as we got in to the taxi turned up to St Mary’s Church at Sutton in Ashfield and I says to my mum ‘Oh I can’t.’ ‘Go on, go on, ‘she said, ‘Oh no. You’re here now. Go on. Get going.’ Anyway we got into the church and I’m not joking I stood at the altar and I was absolutely asleep on my feet. I can’t explain how tired I was. Anyway, after a while suddenly there was a thump in my ribs and I opened my eyes and said. ‘I will’ and it was back to sleep again and quite honestly that’s all I remember of my, of my, of my wedding. And then photographs. The photographer wouldn’t take any photographs at the church. He insisted that we went down to his studio which was a couple of miles away and then he only took, would agree to take two photographs. One of Eunice and I and the wedding group. How different it is these days. Wedding photographers dominate the wedding and take millions of photographs and charge a tremendous amount of money. They do, don’t they? Anyway, Eunice was late when she arrived at the, at the church. She told me later, she said as the taxi drew away from her house a funeral appeared. Now it’s bad luck for you to go past a funeral. That’s what they said. So, quickly the taxi driver changed direction, changed direction to, to avoid it. Lo and behold they were just about to turn up the drive to the, to the church it was quite a long drive two or three hundred yards long and another, another funeral appeared so quickly he turns around and went back again and made another deviation. Well, she says she thought this a sign our wedding wouldn’t last. Well sixty nine years, seventy years later I think probably her premonition was a little bit wrong.
[laughs].
Fortunately, the Sunday, Sunday, a telegram arrived at my home to tell me that I’d been given eight days leave. So, so we didn’t have to report to Wigsley until eight days later but I want to go back a little bit now to my flying training because quite honestly flying training on Wellington bombers, it was a marvellous experience. Dangerous. Always exciting. Mostly enjoyable but quite honestly we were like kids playing with big new toys and we couldn’t get enough of it. Now, many things happened, happened, that quite honestly, that could, we could have bought it there and then. I remember one instant. One instant comes to, comes to mind. This was a training flight up to the north of Scotland and, and this was one for the first night trips that we had. Now, navigation in those days was very, very difficult because they didn’t have radar, the navigator didn’t have radar. He had to use his maps and they used to even use the stars and, and even used to ask us, ask us for things on the ground so that was how primitive it was. Anyway, we flew up to the north of Scotland. It was six and half hour trip and when we got to the north of Scotland we were due to turn, to turn starboard to come down the North Sea but instead of telling us to turn starboard the navigator told Skip to turn port so instead of travelling down the North Sea we were travelling down the Irish Sea. In fact we were rapidly going towards bloody America [laughs] and extended the flight trip quite a long way. He said the reason why this happened was because he accidently pulled his, we were flying above twelve thousand feet and he accidently pulled his, his oxygen cylinder thing out, connection out so he, but that was his story. Anyway, we goes down the North Sea. I remember we got back to, we got back to the Husbands Bosworth area and I remember looking down. It was absolutely, early hours of the morning, it was absolutely pitch dark. You could not see a thing on the ground and Jack the navigator says, ‘Ok Skip. We’re over base.’ Skip says, ‘Can’t see anything.’ So he says, ‘Ok, dog leg.’ so he does a five minute dog leg, comes back again and he says, ‘Right Skip. We’re over base.’ And when he says that there’s a chorus of voices says, ‘You’re up the spout, you’re bloody up the spout we can’t see anything.’ Ok, another dog leg. We did another dog leg and another dog leg and then when we gets to the fourth one there’s a voice, the flight engineer butts in and says, ‘Hey. Hey, we’ve only got, you’d better pull your fingers out, we’ve only got four minutes of fuel left.’ I was sitting, I was in the rear turret listening to all this going and quite honestly my ring was beginning to twitch. I thought to myself, ‘bloody hell if they don’t do something about it we’re going to crash’. So I switched it on. I say, ‘Skip why don’t you call somebody up?’ He says, ‘Oh yes.’ He then calls out the base. The base called in the, the aircraft codes, signs and immediately lights, the aerodrome lights flicked on straight beneath us. Navigator, nav, had been right all the time. We made an emergency landing. We taxied around this, we taxied round, around the perimeter. We turns in to, turns into our bay and as we turned into the bay, before we were in, the engines stopped. That’s how close we were. Ok now then. I’ll go forward now to after my wedding ok.
MJ: Yeah.
HJF: Are we still going?
MJ: Yeah.
HJF: After, after the wedding I reported to, to Wiglsey. Now, once again we, one, one time comes to mind we had a complete and utter cock up on Stirlings. I remember we were corkscrewing, corkscrew starboard, corkscrew port and the Skipper was saying to me diving starboard, diving starboard, climbing port, climbing starboard, rolling port, so on. The corkscrew. And in the middle of this cork, and this Spitfire was attacking us, was attacking us from behind and I was giving a running commentary on, on him coming in and all of a sudden the aircraft levelled out and a panicked voice came over the, came over the intercom, ‘Put on parachutes, jump, jump, jump.’ And I thought, ‘bloody hell, I can’t believe this’. The next second, ‘Put on parachute. Jump, jump, jump. I can’t hold it, I can’t hold it, I can’t hold it.’ I thought to myself ‘bloody hell there’s something happening I can’t see’ and I thought to myself, I thought ‘I’ll have a go’. So I drags the turret around to the beam, pulls on my slider, green as grass I was at the time. Now with experience I’d have opened the door and just flopped back outwards but green as grass I dragged myself out of the turret outside and I was standing outside and the wind was terrible. You can imagine. We were twelve thousand feet, travelling two hundred miles an hour and I’m looking down. I remember standing there with one, with my feet on the edge of the turret, one arm’s holding the top of the turret and I looked down and cows in fields looked, looked like flies. I thought, ‘Bloody hell I wonder if my parachute will open.’ Anyway, I thought to myself I’ll have a go. So therefore, I thought, I started, I released one hand and took, took, began to take my helmet off and quite honestly it was, there was so much noise outside I could hardly hear anything. All of a sudden I heard a faint voice and I didn’t care what it was it I thought, that’s somebody shouting something. It took me twenty minutes to get out but five seconds to get back in. I was back in like a bloody flash and I held my hands to my ears and it was the flight engineer. We’d got a, we’d got a extra member of the crew that time, he was a tour expired extra flight engineer and he was shouting, ‘Don’t go. Don’t go. Don’t go.’ So, right, well what happened? When we got down as we came down to land I was so stressed up with this thing as I climbed, as I came out of the turret into the fuselage I just asked myself, I just had to know whether my chute would have opened. So I immediately, I pulled the rip cord and my parachute spilled out into the fuselage. It cost me two and six pence to have it, now that’s a lot of money. When you think it’s only two pounds a week for me and I was giving a pound to my Mrs that was a lot of money to me but I didn’t care. It gave me the confidence that at least, at least it opened. Now, when we got out, when we got out I say, I says, I says to Skip, ‘What happened?’ He says, ‘Well’ he says, ‘We were diving,’ he says, ‘We were diving and climbing and rolling in the what do you call it,’ he says, ‘And all of a sudden a window just at the back of my head, unbeknown to me, flew out.’ The window had got, on the inside, had got a lead weighted curtain and as it, as the window blew out it sucked this lead weighted curtain out and he says it just started banging on the side of the fuselage bang, bang, bang, bang he says, ‘I suddenly heard this bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang tremendous noise’ he says, and at that precise moment by sheer coincidence the instructor, flight engineer, the bloody fool, sitting at the side of me, the starboard outer oversped. Now, the standard procedure is to pull the nose of the aircraft like climbing a hill to steady it down. Now, instead of just poking the Skipper or, or switching his intercom on which was at his mouth and saying what was happening he immediately dragged on, dragged as hard as he could on the controls to lift. Now, the Skipper at the time because he was hearing this banging noise was trying to keep the aircraft straight and level and at the same time the flight engineer, and they were pulling against each other and I’m not joking it was a complete and utter cock up but I’ve often thought to myself what did that bloody Spitfire driver think of me when he saw me standing outside, climbing out, he must have thought I were doolally.
[laughs]
Another thing happened whilst we were in flying training. We were doing the corkscrewing. All of a sudden all four engines cut out. Quick as a flash Skipper slammed the aircraft in to a vertical dive and kick-started the engine. Fortunately got them going, fortunately we got plenty of height, kick-started them. By golly that did make your heart flutter [laughs] and then our final training, training trip with, on Stirlings we had an emergency landing and we had, we had to make an emergency landing at Woodhall Spa, the home of 617 of all places, and as we, as we touched down all of a sudden the Stirling swung off, swung off the runway and headed straight for flying control. Now the Stirling was a massive aircraft and, and the cockpit, when the cockpit, when it was stopped, when it was stationery the cockpit was level with the windows in flying control and we, we careered across the, across the, the grass and stopped about a couple of foot from the, from the flying control windows and Skip said he could see flying control people running away from the windows in panic and when we stopped he says, he switches on, he says, ‘Flying control, ‘he says, ‘Can you see where we are?’ and a droll voice, a dry voice came over, ‘Yes’.[laughs] Anyway, the bonus for this was we spent the night at Woodhall Spa and we were, we were able to spend the night in the mess and we were able to mix with those elite airmen, the 617 people. It was absolutely wonderful. Anyway, the next morning we flew the thirty five minutes back, back, back to base at Wigsley and that was our last training trip, flying training trip. The next day we went to, we transferred to RAF Syerston for Lanc finish school which we spent two weeks there. At the end of the two weeks we were being moved to squadron. We were now fully trained. Now, for some reason we, on the 24th of January 1945 we, we boarded a RAF transport to take us from there to squadron. For some reason and I don’t know why we were taken to RAF Balderton for the night. Now, we were absolutely dead beat when we got there. It’s a bit sexy.
[laughs]
Absolutely dead beat so we went to bed very early. Now, we were in a Nissen hut with about twenty beds and there was entrances both sides. Now, fast asleep, late on, I don’t know, about midnight, all of a sudden there was a door opened the other end and a couple, excited couple came in and they obviously didn’t know there was anybody there. Short time later the excited talk, sexual. [laughs] and this went on and on and on and on. Anyway satisfaction came in time and they crept out laughingly and after they’d gone a quiet voice says, ‘Did you hear all that?’ [laughs] It goes without saying that fit aircrew fully trained wouldn’t miss a thing like that. It certainly brightened my night up. The next day we were a, to 50 squadron Skellingthorpe. We arrived at RAF Skellingthorpe on the 25th of January 1945. Now, the atmosphere, there was quite an atmosphere on training, training, on training stations but it was nothing like this. There was that feeling like an electric feeling. There was so much bustle and things going off, watching, actually we were nearly month before we did our first operation but we, all right? Seeing aircraft take off, disappearing, new aircraft coming in, the wild, wild parties that were in the mess. The atmosphere was absolutely wonderful. Now as I said we were a month, we were doing training during the time and I remember wonder, wonder if, if I’m going to be up to it because you never know do you? Anyway, it was the 5th of March, the 5th of March by the time we, we did our first operation and what an operation. What an eye opener. Now, I remember we walked into the, we walked into the briefing room, and The excited chatter and then all of a sudden the briefing officer came in quite pleased and deathly silence instantly. Your target for tonight will be Bohlen. Bohlen. Apparently, I found out, it was going to be a ten hour trip. Your, your route will be passing the Ruhr, in the Ruhr, in the Ruhr 3 Group will be attacking the Ruhr. In that area expect to see enemy fighters attacking in pairs. One from above and one below. If one gets above, if one gets beneath you they will shoot you to pieces. So be careful. Beware. Anyway, briefing finished and we’re standing outside. They’re all chatting all excitedly together and I’m talking to Flight Lieutenant Ling’s rear gunner and I can’t remember his name but I knew that he’d been, he was getting towards the end of his tour. I says to him how are things going, what was the flight like? Obviously, obviously I was quite uptight and he said, ‘Oh don’t worry, there’s nothing to it. Nothing to it. And I said something to him which I’m not going to tell you about which made me think, made me think ‘You’re not taking it seriously enough.’ He said, ‘Oh’ he says, ‘Don’t worry. I’ve never seen, I’ve never seen a fighter at all.’ Unbelievably, we came, we came across our first Messerschmitt less than four hours later. He say, ‘Don’t worry. There’s nothing to it’ and I thought, anyway they got the chop on the next trip, the next what do you call it, you see. Anyway, I remember going out to the aircraft at Skellingthorpe and the tension in me was absolutely sky high and I remember it didn’t seem to take us long, didn’t seem to take us long before we were taxiing out and as we were taxiing out I was looking around and there was all, I’m certain as I remember 61 squadron were also going that night and there were all these aircraft taxiing around the perimeter. The atmosphere was absolutely electric and all above, above, above all above us we could see the Lincoln cathedral in front of us and all above we could see heavily laden bombers gradually circling up, circling around. The tension inside me just went just like that. I was ready for it. Anyway, we turns on to the peri track, taxies up to the runway, waits our turn, turns on to, turns on to the, turns on to the, on to the runway. Skip calls, ‘Brakes on. Full power.’ And then, ‘Right, brakes off’ and, and we began to surge forward and alongside the, alongside the runway was a line of ground staff waving us off. What a wonderful take off. What a wonderful send off. Anyway, this was the first time that we’d been in a, in a Lancaster with a full bomb load. We’d got fourteen thousand pounds of bombs on and two thousand two hundred gallons of fuel. It was as much as any aircraft, Lancaster aircraft could carry in those days. I remember we were surging along, we were surging along, the vibration, this was the first time I’d heard the engines on full throttle right through the gate. The aircraft was absolutely, all the fuselage was vibrating with the tension of it. Anyway, as I, as I remember one two five was the one, was about the speed that you used to take off. I remember engineers started to call out one twenty, one twenty one, one twenty two, one twenty four, one twenty five and then Skip dragged the aircraft and you could feel the fuselage vibrating as he was fighting to get the aircraft into the air and then we had another problem. The Skellingthorpe runway was aimed straight at Lincoln Cathedral on top of that hill. Now that’s like a pimple today but to us in, in 1945 it was a terrible object to get over and we used to have to be banking while still at stalling speed. We used to be banking to miss that, well, I say ‘bloody cathedral, oh God’ and then when we got to a thousand feet it was such a relief. Anyway, I remember, I remember gradually climbed up. Our operation height was twelve thousand feet. I remember circling around. There were hundreds of aircraft. I think there were about two hundred and fifty aircraft involved in that operation. They were oh wonderful sight, wonderful sight gradually, circling around getting up to height and then a green light, Very light came from came out of one of the, the leading aircraft and we immediately began into a bomb, into a stream and we started to head out for Germany over the North Sea. Now, gradually, we’d set off at half past five at night, March and it was getting dark, getting quite dusk and as we set out, as we set out over the, over the North Sea gradually the light disappeared and so the aircraft, the aircraft, gradually, my night vision was developed. It used to take you twenty minutes for your night vision to develop and, and gradually all you could see was just, you could see Lancasters when they were the image of them when they were very close and you could see the sparks of the engine and we used to, we used to, we’d been told, warned about these twin fighters so we were swaying from side to side so we could look straight beneath us so we wouldn’t be caught out and I remember we’d been flying over the North Sea and were now entering, entering, enemy territory for the first time. The tension built up in, the adrenalin. I should say adrenalin building up inside me and I remember I was looking, it was now almost pitch dark, although it was a moonlit night it was still dark and I remember watching this, watching this Lancaster drift slowly underneath us, about twenty or thirty feet beneath us and it had just drifted underneath us. I could just see the sparks from its engines and just as he drifted there was a tremendous explosion just a short distance behind us and the explosion, the light split in half, then the next second, two, two seconds later there were two tremendous explosions. Two Lancasters rammed each other and both exploded in mid-air and then it was back to complete darkness. It hadn’t, the shock, the shock it hadn’t taken me long to realise the difficulties of being on operational active service but you know sadly fourteen air crew, airmen had lost their lives in that second but the shockwave was, it was so close to us the shockwave came right through our aircraft, violently vibrated us and quite honestly I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had blown us down. Anyway, we carried on. We climbed up to twelve thousand feet. Now, it was a moonlit night, a moonlit night and the clouds, the clouds looked like a rolling sea. It was so picturesque. The clouds were up to ten thousand feet, we were two thousand feet above and it looked so picturesque. It was lovely and I remember my concentration was absolutely sky high and all of a sudden I saw something which could have been a fly on a window, it was just a slight movement right down deep, deep on, on the starboard side and I thought to myself, bloody hell a fighter. Can’t be. Who said he’d never seen a fighter? Yeah, I thought, anyway it was at that moment that I made, through inexperience, something which could have been, could have been fatal to us because I should, all my, all my training, I should have in actual fact immediately called and, and warned the crew what was happening. Nevertheless, despite this mistake I automatically aimed my guns at it. Gradually this object moved gradually astern and when it was dead astern at ten thousand feet gradually it started coming up. Now when it got to, when it got level with us the image of the aircraft filled my, filled the ring on my gun sight and it was at that moment that the hundreds of hours that I’d spent viewing, viewing pictures, silhouettes of, of fighter, of enemy fighters, fighters on screens in training paid off because I recognised it a Messerschmitt 109. Immediately, without, without a second thought I pressed my, pressed my button and gave it a prolonged burst straight at the fighter and I watched my, I watched my tracers go straight in it. At this fraction of a second I immediately switched on and shouted, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Dive, dive, dive.’ And the Skipper slammed the aircraft straight into a, into a vertical dive and he’s shouting me, ‘You mean corkscrew. You mean corkscrew.’ But I didn’t. I meant dive because there was no deflection required because he was absolutely dead astern. Anyway, I watched my tracers go straight into it, straight into it and the fighter immediately went straight down as if out of control straight into the cloud. I’m convinced now that I shot it down but of course rules do not allow you to claim anything when you don’t see the ground and we were at ten thousand, the clouds at ten thousand feet so therefore that’s but I’m convinced that I got him. Anyway, we carried on to the target, this was another couple of hours RT silence and all of a sudden, all of a sudden a voice, RT silence was broken. Now, a voice came over as calm as I’m talking to you, ‘Control to Link One how do you read me?’ And it was the, it was the voice of the controller who I feel certain was Wing Commander Stubbs, a man I had a great respect for. ‘Link One to control. Loud and clear. Control to Link One go in and mark the target.’ Ok. Right, carry,’ I listened to this conversation. We’re gradually, now we’re quite some distance from the target but gradually now the pathfinders are now beginning to drop their flares so the sky’s beginning to light up so I’m beginning to see lights in, lights in the sky and gradually as we are approaching as we are getting nearer and nearer the target. I’m listening to the conversation of the controller and the Link One now when everything was done and everything had been marked with satisfaction controller says, ‘Ok. Ok Link One, go home, go home.’ Then he called out which I’m certain was Bandwagon. They called the bomber stream Bandwagon, ‘Hello Bandwagon,’ and that was our call sign, ‘Hello Bandwagon. Come in and bomb the target. Bomb red flares,’ and he was giving instruction to which flares to bomb and when he’d finished all that he says, he says, now, ‘No flak. Watch out for fighters.’ So, anyway, we approach the target and just before the target, just before we reach the target all of a sudden a single engine fighter which I’m certain was a Messerschmitt 109 suddenly made a run at us. I immediately, now I was listening to the bomb aimer and Skipper beginning to give instructions for our bombing run and our instructions was that you should not corkscrew during that time. We were taught to be quiet so immediately I aimed and fired. Calamity. The back of my gun sight dropped out and a white light there, I’d been five hours in pitch darkness, and this white light bomb sight bulb was right in front of me. Now, it only took me seconds to put it together but twenty minutes for my, for my night vision to come back and during that time anything could have happened. I couldn’t have done a thing. I could hear what was happening and all the talk and I couldn’t see a thing. What happened to that fighter I will never know. Anyway, we went on our bomber run and, and I could hear the bomb aimer saying, ‘Left, left, steady, steady, steady. Ok bombs gone.’ Now, the bombs used to drop at about a thousand feet per second. We were twelve thousand feet so twelve seconds later he says, ‘Photograph taken.’ Now, immediately Skipper slammed the nose of the aircraft right down. We went straight down a couple of thousand feet straight into the cloud and we stayed in those clouds for hours. Anyway, we came out of the clouds eventually and then lo and behold as we came out of the cloud over to our, over to our side I can’t remember if it was port or starboard there was a bloody Lancaster flying on with all its lights on. The stupid buggers. With all his lights on. We scooted away from it as quick as we could. So anyway we got back to our area where the cathedral, over the cathedral. Now, Skellingthorpe, Scampton and Waddingon, their circuits almost intertwined around the cathedral, more or less. Now, when we used to come over the cathedral you can- now you can imagine everything was visual so therefore there were loyal scores of very, very tired, tired aircrew so all, all desperate to get home, desperate to get home so there was a tremendous danger of collision and another thing, another thing, the night before this, the night of the 4th , 4th of March, three intruders had shot three Lancasters down in the circuit at Waddington and one at Fulbeck so this had immediately filtered through us so instead of relaxing as one do after, after being in the turret for nigh on ten, eleven hours my concentration as we switched our landing lights on, we just used to have landing lights while we were in the circuit, and I remember as we switched our landing lights on about, about twenty aircraft close by and they must have been in different circuits switched their lights on. Now, I remember I was, my concentration was sky high and I remember thinking Skip calls twenty degrees of flap, a hundred degree of flap and I was all the time searching all the way around thinking to myself I’m not going to be caught out by an intruder because this was the dangerous, you’re like a sitting duck then. We came in to land we stopped in dispersal all the twelve hours of tension drained out of me. I thought to myself ‘bloody hell and this is only the first one’. And that was my first operation. Yeah. Another interesting operation was the one to Lutzkendorf which was on the 14th of March 1945. There were two hundred and forty five Lancasters involved and eleven Mosquitos. Eighteen aircraft failed to return. Never even reported in the paper and that’s nearly two hundred people it’s just, yeah, anyway. Anyway, took off about ten minutes to five. I remember we, we flew past the Ruhr and once again rear group, 3 Group were attacking the Ruhr and I remember as we passed by I could see the fight that was going on. I could see flak shells bursting in the air. Tremendous. I could see air to air tracer bullets from, from bomber to fighter. I could see bombs dropping and I thought bloody hell we’ve got another, we’ve got another two hours to go yet and then we continued a short distance away and now there was another problem. We’d been warned that there was a fighter, a fighter aerodrome, a night fighter ‘drome in this area which had a light shining from its roof, from the top of flying control so that, so that we knew from one that there would be, there would be fighters, night fighters in strength in this area and this light was on specifically so they could stay in the air until the last minute, down, refuel and be up again. Now, I remember I suddenly saw this and the adrenalin was such, I thought to myself God the night fighter are bound. All of a sudden I saw the airfield had been strafed. The light disappeared. Obviously, it must have been one of our aircraft. One of our aircraft. I know full well that putting the light out didn’t, didn’t make much difference to the fact that fighters were around but boy it did relieve me. Anyway, we carried on to the, we carried on to the target and once again, once again, I can’t remember the controller it might have been Wing Commander Stubbs but he went through the same procedure, went through the same procedure. I remember him saying at the end, ‘No flak. Look out for fighters. Watch out for fighters’. This was our fourth trip and the tension was beginning to build up in me as we were going through the target and I remember without me intercom switched on I was listening to the, I was listening to the bomb aimer saying, ‘Left, left, left, steady’ and I was shouting, I was shouting in a loud voice, ‘Drop the bloody thing. Drop the bloody thing and let’s get out of here.’ Anyway, after what seemed an interminable length of time he said ‘Bombs gone.’ Skip immediately slammed the aircraft down into a dive and disappeared from the, and as we as we left the target I thought to myself, ‘thank God, we got away with it’. Little did I know. Now, I remember we’d left the target, we’d been gone probably ten and fifteen minutes and I could still hear that controller over the target. ‘Bomb green, the green flare,’ do this, undershoot it, do this, do that. It was absolutely inspirational. He must have been, he seemed to have been over the target hours. Anyway as I’m listening to this left from the target about approximately fifteen minutes when all of a sudden a fighter flare burst straight above us. From complete darkness it was like switching the light on, an electric light on in a pitch dark room. The shock of it made me sink deep in, deep in to my, in to my turret. My seat. Mind you, immediately my mind started working like lightning and I, looking out of the, looking out of, I searched the area. I searched the area all the way, all the way. I searched the area all over and sure enough high on the starboard side I could my left I could see an FW190 coming in fast dragging all I’d been looking I hadn’t been turning my turret around so as quick as I can I’m dragging my turret around. I didn’t have time to aim. So, immediately I got anywhere near I pressed my, I starts firing, my gun starts rattling away I’m dragging, trying to drag my tracer, tracer bullets into it and I’m watching it. Then all of a sudden with this, this aircraft coming in fast I felt rather than saw something on my, deep on the starboard side and forcing myself to take my eyes off this aircraft I had a quick glance to the right, to the right, and there deep down, deep down on the port side. It’s my right but it’s the port side of the aircraft, deep down on the port side was a JU88 almost underneath us and I thought, bloody hell. Immediately I realised that if he could get underneath us he was going to shoot us to pieces so I stopped firing at him, drags my turret around and as soon as I can, as soon as I can I began firing at this JU88 and immediately, immediately they both of them broke away. Now, they played cat and mouse with us for twenty six minutes. Now, that might not seem a long, a long time but as each, each attack only lasted about ten seconds. How many times they came in I don’t know but anyway Lancasters, Lancasters didn’t have any power assisted controls. The Skipper was corkscrewing continuously for forty minutes. The physical effort on him must have been absolutely terrific. Anyway, the tension inside me remained after. I didn’t realise they were twenty six minutes. After a time, after a long time with my tension, with my concentration, still sky high they disappeared. They must have decided that, that, you know, either run out of fuel or they realised they might as well go for an easier target. Anyway, the navigator, I only know it was twenty six minutes because the navigator told me later but when we got back I remember the relief as we passed over the English coast. It was absolutely fantastic. I know we weren’t safe but the relief to be over. It seemed so much comfort to be coming over, over this country. Now, when we, when we, after we came in to land I found out that all ten thousand rounds that I’d supplied to my rear turret - I’d fired every one. There wasn’t one left. So if we’d have had another attack by one of those fighters I couldn’t have done anything about it. That was as close we were to disaster. Phew. And sadly, sadly Flight Lieutenant Ling and crew did not return from this, from this operation and I’m not surprised. Well I shouldn’t say this but, no I won’t say any further. I did think that the rear gunner was getting a bit blasé and probably he wasn’t doing what he should have been doing but I don’t know. I can’t say anything more about that. But that was my fourth operation.
Another interesting operation was a daylight operation to Nordhausen. There were two hundred and forty Lancasters involved. Now during briefing we’d been told that the SS troops had been transferred to Nordhausen to protect Hitler. Now, this was what made it interesting with thoughts that we might be bombing Hitler. Now, we didn’t have any flak or fighters to contend with but all we had was problems. Now, I remember we took off. Generally speaking most of my operations in fact all of the other operations we used to take off from, from Skellingthorpe and go straight out to the North Sea. On this occasion we were going to travel south, south and meet up with 3 group aircraft and, and, and travel to Nordhausen with them, you see, which, which meant we were going to drive past the London area. Now, we’d been warned at briefing be careful near the London area. Their ack ack gunners don’t like strangers, unidentified aircraft flying over. They will fire first and ask second so beware. Anyway, having taken off in the early hours of the morning it was still absolutely pitch. 2.30 we took off. It was still pitch dark as we went by, went by the London area and I remember as we arrived there, there were absolutely hundreds and hundreds of searchlights shining up and quite honestly we were so close to them I thought, I was really on tenterhooks, because I thought bloody hell, thinking about the fourteen thousand pound of bombs underneath us and those, those twitchy ack ack gunners. Anyway, I was looking down, all of a sudden Skip slammed the aircraft in to a vertical drive. Now the g-force on me was tremendous. It drew me, stretched my body up and my body, my head hit the top of the fuselage with a bang, the top of the turret rather with a bang and just at that precise second, now you’ve got to remember that I had no perspex at all in front of me, so, therefore, therefore the open air was just there and just as that happened a Lancaster aircraft flew just over and I swear to this day that if I’d have put my hand out I could have touched that aircraft. Another one of our nine lives. Anyway we carried on. We met with up 3 Group, over Reading it was, and we drifted out over the, over the, on to enemy territory. I remember we were so widely spaced out well, we were used to flying at night-time, we didn’t need to be in a gaggle when all of a sudden there was a voice came up, RT silence broken and it was obviously the fighter leader controller, fighter leader and he shouts up ‘Close up. Close up. How do you expect me to bloody protect you?’ Anyway, we got to Nordhausen and boy did we close up. Our operational height was about twelve thousand feet as far as I could remember. I can’t remember. Somewhere in that region. But two hundred and fifty aircraft then from being miles apart suddenly homed in together in to a thin line and I remember there was aircraft all the way around us, almost touching us. Now, I didn’t mind the ones at the side or the ones below or the ones straight above us but I was leaning forward in my turret and looking up. The ones I was concerned of one above in front that I couldn’t see because I thought to myself they’ll be dropping bloody bombs on us and I’m looking at them when all of a sudden, all of a sudden a full load of bombs missed the back of my turret with this, with a fraction. Almost touching us. Ten, ten one thousand pound bombs and a cookie. Now, they go down like lightning. Fifty foot beneath us was a Lancaster. The first, the first thousand pounder hit this fuselage right in the middle, right, just at the back of the mid upper turret. I cringed, expecting it to explode but lo and behold the bomb went straight through the fuselage and disappeared, continued down. The next, the next thousand pounder hit the middle of the wing and I still couldn’t believe it. I’m still cringing again and it bounced back and bounced off. Now the cookie, which was a contact bomb, they must have had err, you know biometric things that didn’t explode above five hundred feet or something but the cookie was a contact bomb. It missed the side of the fuselage by a skin of paint. Anyway, I remember the, the aircraft disappeared and there was a lot, there was a lot happening. I forgot about it. Anyway, by sheer chance at the end of the war I was listening to Canadian troops embarking on to the ship to go home and, and the person being interviewed was a pilot and it was an interesting story and do you know he went through what I’ve just told you. It was the, it was the pilot of this aircraft and he said, he said, and it was so pleasing to know, that they’d staggered back to the North Sea and dropped their bombs and got, and they survived the war. Anyway, anyway we were coming over the North Sea about, about ten thousand feet and all of a sudden I saw two Lancasters drop right down to zero feet and I thought bloody hell they’re going in. They’re going in. And all of a sudden from the back of one of them I suddenly saw foam appear and it was like watching a motorboat swing, speeding along and this foam behind, I can’t remember, two engines, two of the engines, this foam was behind it for about four hundred yards when gradually it picked up, climbed up and I thought to myself, ‘oh they’re ok. They’re alright’. Anyway, by sheer coincidence four days later when we returned from an operation we were diverted to Spilsby of all places, 44 squadron which I eventually finished up on and we were able to get out of the aircraft to have a walk you know and have a stretch and I was walking by this aircraft which had got props bent and all the props on one side. I think it was just on one side [laughs] I think it was just on one side. They were bent almost double and I, and there was a ground staff working on it and I said, ‘God, what happened to that aircraft?’ He said, ‘The silly buggers,’ he says, ‘This bloke and another bloke coming from an operation a few days ago, they were playing about to find which one could get closer to the sea. This silly bugger dragged his props in the water. Nearly drowned his rear gunner.’ I thought to myself, ‘God, how did they manage to keep the aircraft flying with damage like that?’ Anyway, he said they were being court martialled. I don’t know. Anyway, and that was that.
[laughs]
Another very interesting operation was a daylight operation to Hamburg oil installations, Germany on the 9th of April 1945. During this operation twenty five jet fighters ME262s attacked the bomber force. This was, I believe, the first time that any fighters were ever used during any war, first attack. Anyway, there were, there were, there were fifty seven bombers involved. 50 squadron, 61 squadron I think we got twelve and something like that, 61 squadron and 617 and 9 squadron. We were to, we were to drop, we were to drop thousand pounders on the oil installations and 617 and 9 squadron were to drop a tall boy. I can’t remember if eight thousand or twelve thousand pound bombs on the, on the submarine pens. Now, the thing was that because of the weight of the Tall Boy they’d taken out of the Lancasters, 617 and 9 squadrons they’d taken away the bomb doors and had actually taken off the mid upper turret to lighten the aircraft so to be able to carry it ready to take off and because of this we were, we were instructed that we were to fly in a gaggle and fly as quick, as close as possible to support them. Now another thing the apparently 309 squadron, a Polish squadron flying mustangs, would escort us and 65 squadron were also taking part. Now, we took off at about well 14.48 I believe it was. The weather was perfect and I remember our operational height was twelve thousand feet. Now, I remember we were passing over, we were passed quickly, over, over the, over the North Sea and I’m thinking to myself now Hamburg was a very, very dangerous place. A very important place to Germany. Still is. Still is. But because of this over the war, during the war they’d built up a tremendous defence and if you had any aircraft attacking there we could have heavy losses so we knew that we were in for a difficult time when we got there. I remember passing over, over Germany and all of a sudden every so often the flak was bursting, shells were bursting shells were bursting around us but quite honestly I never gave them a thought. You know I was used to night, night bombing where the flak was a bright light but I never gave as I say, probably I should have done. Anyway we got to, got to Hamburg, near to Hamburg and I rotated my turret. I can’t remember port or starboard side but we were coming up and turned square to the right over Hamburg.
Other: Can somebody come in here?
Going back a little bit I remember as we were going over the, going over the North Sea it was a completely cloudless sky, brilliant sun and I remember thinking to myself where are those bloody fighters supposed to be, that are supposed to be protecting us? Three squadrons were supposed to be protecting us but every so often, every so often we saw right in the distance swirling around oh I thought, ‘Oh lovely. There they are.’ Anyway we carried on. I remember as we, as we, as we entered, got over mainland Europe gradually every so often we’d hear the phuf phuf of flak shells at the side of us which I just ignored. I don’t know a bit complacent probably but I just didn’t care about them. Didn’t take any, anyway we gets to Hamburg and Hamburg, I’m just, I’m repeating myself now. Hamburg was a very special place. Was then. Is now. And during the war years they’d built up a tremendous, tremendous defensive force. They, they could send up a box barrage of flak in an instant and I remember we were approaching, approaching Hamburg and I can’t remember which side we were. Left or right. But I leaned forward, leaned forward and I looked and turned my turret to the beam and leaned forward to look forward and I could almost see in front of us and I could see the target as we were approaching her and I’m not joking I have never seen flak like it. We were, we were, I think we, I think we were, our height was we bombed from about sixteen thousand feet but up to around our bombing height there was a complete black cloud of flak shells bursting out and I remember thinking to myself, bloody hell we’re never going to get through that. Now I’m just going to divert a little bit because we were at the back of the fifty seven aircraft and a friend of mine on 61 squadron, Ted Beswick, he was in the front aircraft and he was telling me later he says they were watching this predict, this flak. I forget what you call it. Predicted flak. It gradually approaching him and he said until one burst right in front of the nose and he says and, and, and parts flew through the front through the bomb aimers position and, and, and badly injured the engine, the bomb aimer. Anyway, we carried on to the target. We turned on to the target and we, I’m not joking with you, I can’t describe what it was like going through the flak. It was absolutely frightening you. I was thinking, I say, frightening. Anyway, believe it or not we went, we got through the target unscathed. We dropped our bombs and I understand it was a successful bombing. Anyway, we left the target and I could see aircraft. I feel certain I could see aircraft around, some damaged but nobody shot down. Anyway we’d left the target and we’d been left a few minutes. I then turned my turret around and I thought to myself, bloody hell, we’re back marker. Sitting duck for any fighters. So immediately I switched on. I said, ‘Skip, Skip we’re back marker. Sitting duck for any fighters.’ He says, ‘Ok. Ok.’ So he immediately shoves full throttle on and gradually, gradually we moved forward so we could see aircraft behind me. That made me feel a bit better. Now, a short time later and I can’t remember how long, all of a sudden twenty five ME262s attacked the formation. I only saw five but I know from later reports it was twenty five but I saw five aircraft coming along the, coming along the ground level and I, I called, ‘Skip Skip I can see, I can see five small aircraft on almost at ground level.’ God, I’ve never seen aircraft travelling so fast. They, they, they began to climb. I says, ‘God they’re climbing faster than I’ve ever seen any aircraft dive.’ Within seconds they were up to our operational height. They levelled out and came straight at us canons blazing. Canons blazing’s straight through us like a dose of salts. Now, one of them come straight at us and I’m firing as hard trying, trying as hard as I could ‘cause it’s like lightning is happening, trying to drag my tracer bullets into it and it came so close I thought to myself it’s going to ram us and I’m not joking he then swung in between us and another Lancaster by my side, by our side and, and I could see the, I could see fighter, I could see the fighter pilot as close as I can see you now. Anyway, I’m swinging and firing my turret and all of a sudden I realised that I’m firin my, still firing my bullets straight through this Lancaster at the side of me. I lifted my arms like lightning off, off my, off my off my controls and, and, and I thought to myself bloody hell, I thought to myself might have shot down my, the aircraft but of course you can’t shoot an aircraft down by firing straight at it you have to fire in front of them but that was fortunate because it was a 617 aircraft. I don’t know what would have been said. Anyway, we, we’d left the target, we left the target and only a few seconds later after they’d attacked us all of a sudden by the side of us the aircraft, the back marker aircraft exploded, broke in half and began to drop straight down. Now, when it had dropped about a thousand feet I saw although the rear turret would immediately lose, as it broke in half, lose, lose any control we had we had a handle which we could turn and swing the turret around. Anyway, after about a thousand feet I saw the, this is another story I’ll tell you in a bit which I’d forgotten to tell you. Forgotten to tell you. I watched this rear gunner drag himself out of the, out of the turret and fall away and I thought to myself oh thank God, he’s, thank God he’s, going to get away with it. He was a friend of mine. Anyway, the parachute opened and a few seconds puff it exploded in flames and then I had to watch this friend of mine, friend of mine struggling, drop away, gradually drop away to his death. Now, I’ll tell you a little, I’d forgotten to tell you but when we went out to the aircraft, when we went out to the aircraft after we’d had the briefing you all race out and you all try to get on to the buses as there were buses and lorries. Now, the buses were a lot of comfort so therefore you raced to get in those. Now we raced in and I sat in the front seat and, and sitting at the side of me was Norman, Norman Garfield Fenton. Friend of mine. I say he’s a friend, he was a squadron friend not that I knew much about his private life other than that he was from Kettering. But I says to him, ‘What aircraft are you in? He says, ‘Fred. F Freddy.’ Now F Freddy, we did four ops in there so it gave us, gave us chat, you know, something to talk about. Anyway we got to the dispersal area and, and climbs out. All of us rush to our aircraft and climbed aboard and did our pre-start checks and afterwards there was still an hour or so to go. We climb out of the fuselage and, and, and went Taffy and I went, went and sat down, sat down on the grass and a few seconds later Norman walks across and we sat down and there we are. I think we took off at 2.30 so it was quite warm and where we sat there chatting away talking about what we were going to do. I remember I do believe he said he’d got a little child. I can’t remember but I think he said he had a young family but we were chatting about what we were doing and four hours later I watched him die. You know, it really did affect me. I mean, at night time you just disappeared, didn’t have the same effect on you but knowing, I recognised the aircraft as it dropped away as V and F. I could see it clearly so I knew this was Dennis, Dennis struggling and nearly got out and I had to watch him fall and it did affect me for quite a long time and poor Dennis and Flying Officer [Berryman] who was his Skipper and, and one of the other crew are buried in, in Hamburg but oh dear it did affect me for quite a long time that. Ok. Now one thing I’ve got when we got back to briefing. When we got back to briefing we turned around and told the briefing officers we’d been attacked by jets and they says not possible. Not possible. Not possible. There’s no, there’s no airfields around Hamburg for jets but little did we know, little did we know that jets, the Germans were taking off from motorways. Ten out of ten for them for innovation. But apparently the, the powers that be killed the story because they were so fearful of the effect it might on morale, of morale of our aircrew. But then I want to go back a little bit now to Ted Beswick. He saw all, I only saw five but he saw all twenty five. Now, one of them came at us came at them and he shouts port corkscrew, corkscrew, go, go but of course they couldn’t because they were in gaggle. Anyway when the, when the ME262s had attacked they began to swung around and began to go around to reposition they could only do one or two attacks because of limited fuel but one drew up by accident right on, right on their starboard side I can’t remember starboard or port side. Anyway he immediately fired and saw his tracer bullets go straight into it, straight into it and immediately, immediately the aircraft went straight down as if out of control and he watched it spiral down. Ted is convinced that he made a kill, he made a kill. Of course he couldn’t claim it because once again he didn’t see the ground. But they had another incident they did. They had a hang-up bomb. They couldn’t get rid of it and try as they might they couldn’t get rid of it so they started to go back and try to get rid of it in the, in the North Sea. They still couldn’t get rid of it so they decided to bring it back, bring it back to Skelly. Now as they came in, in to land there was a bang as they touched down and the bomb dropped on to the bomb doors. Now, they pulled up immediately at the end of runway, got out of the aircraft, scooted away from the aircraft called up and a short time later, a short time later well some time later along comes the ground staff, gingerly opens up the, opens up the, winds open the, the bomb doors, bomb doors. Two of them stands there, catches a thousand pounder and then, you know, we have got a lot to thank those air crew people, ground staff people for. Wonderful, wonderful unsung heroes. One, one interesting operation was to [?] in Norway. I remember there was, I can’t remember how many aircraft, several hundred aircraft involved. But we’d been in we’d been told that we were to fly at zero level up the North Sea and I remember in the half-light seeing probably a couple of hundred Lancasters flying, almost touching, almost touching the waves. It was so exciting. I loved it I did. And I’m certain Skip enjoyed it just as a much as I did. Anyway, we got to the, we got to the, got to Norway and, I can’t remember how long it took us. Anyway, we climbed up to bombing height which would be, it would have been about ten to twelve thousand feet. Now, I seemed to remember one gun, one heavy gun but if I’m to believe records, records say there was no, no flak but I seem to remember one gun as we approached. One heavy gun. Anyway, we came in, we came in to bomb and, and we’re virtually on our bombing run and I’m listening to the Skip and the bomb aimer conversing when all of a sudden, now, always before when the Skip had had to dive the aircraft had to change direction of the aircraft it had always been a dive. On this occasion it was different all together. All of a sudden the aircraft reared straight up. Now, I remember I’m clinging on to my controls and I was transfixed. I was transfixed and even though my head still thumped the top of the turret because of the reaction of the aircraft swinging and at the same time we used to carry our flasks and sweets and chocolates given to people, aircrew and I remember them coming straight up in the air, straight up in the air and as the aircraft, aircraft levelled they all went straight out of the window and I said oh sod it. I was saving those for the return. But another thing happened. Ass this was happening. I’m hearing a swirl, a swirling noise of machine gun noise coming into my turret. Thousands of bullets was coming along the ducts into the aircraft. Now, I didn’t realise this was what happened but they came in and completely jammed the turret. Anyway, we levelled out. We crept back over the sea and got back home but if anything had happened we couldn’t have done a thing about that. Now, the thing is when I was on that operation, in our billet, in our billet was another crew err if you just give me a second I’ll remember his name. I’ll just get, now this operation was on the 25th, 26th of April 1945. Now, in my billet, in my billet was another crew. Now this crew, they disappeared and I didn’t know what happened so I just, this is when people got the chop things, just used to take there was usually two crews to a Nissan but when they got the chop they used to take, just take their things out. They disappeared. Never heard anything about them. Anyway, last year, last year at our reunion, our reunion a fellow approaches near our memorial. He says, ‘Hello James. Do you remember me? And I says to him, ‘I don’t think so. I can’t remember.’ Well, he says ‘You were in the next bed to me on 1945. January 1945.’ I says, ‘Oh yes.’ I said ‘What happened to you then?’ I said, ‘You disappeared didn’t you?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He says, he said, ‘When you were going on [?] we were on Exodus.’ Exodus operation. Fetching prisoners back from, from Europe, probably Brussels. Anyway, he says, ‘We dropped the prisoners, the POWs, ex-POWs down he said and headed for home and on the way back we crashed.’ He said, the, the ‘We had problems, engine problems and in trying to avoid these houses the wing tip hit the ground and, he says, ‘And it slewed into the ground. My turret was thrown off into, into a field.’ He said, ‘My guns were buried in the ground.’ He said, ‘I was in hospital for a week.’ He said the mid upper turret, the mid upper gunner got away with it he got a broken leg but the rest of the crew were all killed. I said, ‘Oh good God.’ I says, ‘I wondered what happened.’ They just disappeared. So there you are. Made contact all those years later but how did he finally manage? Probably he managed to find me because with me doing so much on our website. I’m better known. More people know me then I remember them. That’s probably it isn’t it. Could be couldn’t it? But an interesting story that isn’t it? There you are.
MJ: Ahum
HJF: Now then. I want to carry on. On the 1st of June, is it on? Switch her on.
MJ: It is on.
HJF: Yeah. On the 1st of June ‘45 we were transferred from 50 squadron to 44 squadron to be part of, to be part of Tiger Force. The intention was to, to, to fly us straight out, quickly out to the Far East. As a matter of fact Okinawa was going to be our base. So we, we went, we transferred to Spilsby. Now, from day one we started doing high level training. Anyway, I can’t remember but it was a few days after we got, one of our trips, it was only one and three quarter hour trips I think it was just about the worst one of all. I remember we’d got fourteen thousand pounds of bombs we were going to drop into dispersal area in the North Sea and as we taxied around all of a sudden, the port, the port inner set on fire. Now, the smoke was coming and filling my turret and I thought to myself silly bugger put your oxygen mask on, puthering in to me. Anyway, rapidly the, the engine was feathered and after a few minutes the Skip calls up flying control and tells them, ‘Engine fire. Waiting for instructions.’ We waited for instructions and a few minutes later the flying control calls, ‘Right, start the engine up. Give it a run up. Take off when you’re ready.’ When he switched off there was a chorus of voices, ‘We’re not bloody going, the stupid buggers, that engine wants checking. We’re not bloody going.’
MJ: Ahum
HJF: ‘We’re not bloody going.’ Anyway, Skipper in the meantime started the engine up. He revs it up, he says, ‘It seems ok to me. We’ve got to go.’ And we kept saying, ‘We’re not bloody going.’ Anyway, we turns on to the, and eventually gets and I’m not joking I was full of trepidation. I could feel in my water that something else was going to happen. Now, anyway we’d just got our wheels off the deck and the starboard outer seized. Now, let’s just think about it. We’ve got a dicky port inner and we got a, a seized starboard outer and we’ve got fourteen thousand pound of bomb. I’m not, that’s as much as an aircraft immediately started to vibrate telling me, telling me she’s going to stall. She’s going to stall. Now, quick as that I thought, my apprehension just disappeared. I thought to myself I’m going to, I’m going to jump no matter what the height. So, quick as lightning I swings my turret to beams, pulls open the doors. like a flash I was sitting outside and there I sat outside listening to, feeling the violent vibrations of the, of the aircraft as it gradually gained speed and height. It took us about thirty minutes to get up to about two thousand feet and while I’m sitting there just thinking about myself there our poor old Skipper was at the front fighting to keep this aircraft in the air. What a brilliant, brilliant Skipper. Anyway, we eventually get, gradually the vibration stopped. We got to the dispersal area, drops the bombs as near, as near as we could and returned. That, that trip took an hour and a quarter and it seemed the longest one of all. Good God we were so close and then what turned out to be our final trip, final flight actually for seventy, nearly seventy years as far as I was concerned. We were taking part in a dodge operation. Which, Dodge Operations were returning, returning British soldiers, taking, taking Italian troops back to Italy, to Bari in Italy and bringing British soldiers home. Now, we’d been so many times we used to fly visual. We used to go down to Marseilles, turn left over Marseilles, out over, out over the North Sea to the tip of Corsica and, and, and then make for Rome and over Rome straight for Bari. Now we were so casual about this we used to fly you know, anyway as it turns out the engineer, the engineer used to do a bit of piloting every so often. They used to keep their hand in. Anyway, fortunately the engineer had strapped himself in. Now we were carrying twenty one, twenty one Italians and I was sitting in the fuselage, in the fuselage. I was more or less a steward. Now, we were climbing, we were climbing up to ten tenths cloud. Now it was a very, very stormy day. Very, very hot day. Tropical storms everywhere and as it turned out we were the only aircraft only two of us arrived at Bari. Aircraft were diverted all different places. Anyway, we were climbing up through ten tenths cloud at ten thousand feet when all of a sudden cause safety height over, to cross the tip of Corsica, safety height being eleven thousand feet when all of a sudden the aircraft veered straight up, straight up and we flew slap bang into the centre of cunim, Now the tremendous upward force hit the belly of the, hit the aircraft and flung it straight up in the air. She stalled, dropped on her back and started to vertically drop down. Now, the Skipper standing by the side of the engineer as I say he was, he was, he was piloting was thrown up to the roof and he dragged himself around the, and for a time he thought to himself bloody hell we’re going. I’m going to drag myself back. Then he realised that the flight engineer was beginning to get a bit of joy so he drags himself around the fuselage, the side of the fuselage to a standing position alongside him and there was only single controls in a Lancaster. He then grabs hold of the controls and the two of them used all their strength to pull the aircraft out, out of its vertical dive. Now, as I told you I was in the back of the aircraft looking after these, looking after the Italians. I was thrown up to the ceiling and a water tank that was there for them floated up in the air, floated up in the air and were virtually trapped beyond the fuselage and as I looked, I could look at the back and there was, we’d got a Lancaster wheel in in the back, in the back which we were taking. Probably somebody had a burst tire. They’d left it loose. The silly buggers had left it loose. I watched this, watched this Lancaster wheel do a full circle of the fuselage. It smashed the auto gyro and it went around and it hit the machine gun ducts and right to the side of the ducts were the, were the rudder bar controls and I thought to myself, I was praying that it wouldn’t come rolling towards us when the next second, the next second with a slam I was banged down, banged down on to the floor, banged down on to the floor and I dragged myself up. All the Italians were in a complete panic and without thinking I just slotted the bloke at the side of me, slotted him, knocked him down and said, ‘Lie down.’ I made him lie down. Anyway, then I thought to myself, I thought as I’m standing there I thought to myself, actually I called Skip up. I said oh I think one of these, one of these Italians had pulled the [aerial] controls and we knew we’d lost an aircraft through somebody pulled themselves, their all external inside the aircraft and pulled them up and it had caused the aircraft to crash because it was almost you know in a position where they couldn’t change so I thought that’s what had happened, Anyway, as I’m standing looking all of a sudden the aircraft reared up again but not quite as bad. So I thought sod it I’ll have a look at this. Now our mid upper gunner had been transferred because of the end of the war you see, had transferred so I climbed into his turret and I was amazed. We should have been at eleven thousand feet to cross over safely over the tip of Corsica. We were then travelling along the coastline on the edge of the mountains, parallel. Somehow or other in the process of diving vertically we’d changed direction. Now, I don’t know whether it were luck or whether it was the skill of our pilot but anyway we turned, we were flying along the coast of, coast, coastline. Now then we came into land. Now at Bari, at Bari there was only one single runway. One single runway. And, and aircraft were, aircraft were positioned, were parked either side of the runway. Yanks on the left, yanks on one side and all Lancasters on the other. Now, as we came in to land, another thing, just at the end of the runway was a, was a large quarry and on very hot days, on very hot days used to cause an air pocket above the, right above the end of the runway. Now Skipper might have forgotten that or it might have been just because let’s face it I was stressed up and I was only looking after them, so God only knows how he was feeling but anyway as we came in to land we dropped from about sixty foot straight down. We hit the ground, we hit the tarmac with such a bang and the aircraft reared off, reared off, slewed to, slewed to port and, and coming, taxiing right down, right down just in front of us was a, was a flying fortress. We were heading straight for it. Skip immediately slams port throttle, full port throttle on, slews the aircraft and I could feel the undercarriage bending. Why it didn’t break I don’t know and there we are slewing across to the other side and going straight for the Lancs and he shoved full throttle on the other side and we straightened out and that was it and we levelled out. Now, you might have thought that was enough trouble for one thing but when we were coming up, we stayed there four days and I remember I was standing, we were waiting to return and we were standing about halfway along the runway and there were thousands of troops, thousands. There were hundreds of aircraft and thousands of troops, American and British, and we were watching the first Lancaster to take off and it came by us and it was almost as it came flashing by us it was almost at take-off speed when all of a sudden it turned completely ninety degrees. Now there were four line I think, I can’t remember whether it was three line or four lines but it went through the first ones, first ones, missed all the aircraft but hit another one in the line absolutely broadside and just as it hit its undercarriage collapsed but when it hit it’s props were churning into the side of the aircraft churning, churning. Now, thousands of us ran across thinking to ourself, expecting that there would be many many fatalities, many many fatalities but when we got to the aircraft, when we got to the aircraft there was a great big hole in the nose of the aircraft. Three, three, three soldiers climbed out of the front of the nose and do you know and people were pouring out of all sides of the engine. All sides of the aircraft. Do you know there were thousands of people out but do you know to my knowledge there was only one person, there were nobody killed and one person injured and that was he was injured through flying glass. Absolutely fantastic. I thought to myself this is a bloody mugs game. It’s time I pack this game up. Well I’ll tell you now it was an uneventful trip back to the, back to the, back to England but that was the last time I flew in any aircraft until about 2012.
[laughs] 1.38.08
Now, at the, I now over the years, over the years over the last, nearly twenty years I’ve been involved with the 50 and 61 Squadron Association website. Now, quite honestly I never, until, until I was in my seventies I’d never used a computer. But anyway, anyway I was instrumental in helping, helping, eventually, not for a start in helping to start up our website 50 and 61 Squadron Association websites. Now, I have a veteran’s album. I don’t do hardly anything these days Mike [Connock] does it but until, at our reunion 209 Air Vice Marshall Nigel Baldwin came up to me and says, ‘James, I’ve got a story here, an interesting story which would be good for your veterans album.’ Now, it was then I was interested to, I was then introduced to a person called Chris Keltie. Now -
Other: I don’t want to hear your secrets.
HJF: Yeah Chris Keltie. He then, Chris told me a story which at the time -
Other: Make him at least give you a drink.
HJF: No. No. You’re alright.
Other: At least make him. Now I’m telling you. Go on.
HJF: Oh did, did we bring that cup of coffee in? Did we leave that coffee in there? I don’t think we did did we?
MJ: No.
HJF: Oh bloody hell we forgot. Oh sorry.
HJF: As I say. Chris Keltie. Chris Keltie. He told me a story which at the time I just didn’t believe. I couldn’t believe that anybody, because of my experiences, I couldn’t believe that anybody could do what I was being told but he was telling me that a pilot whilst severely injured and weakened by loss of blood had regained control of an earthbound Lancaster and, and in pitch darkness brought the thing in to land and thereby saved the lives of, as it turned out, three of his crew members. For this he got nothing. Not even get, now I’ll tell you the full story. On the, it’s Victoria stuff. Victoria Cross stuff. I’m not joking with you. It was in July 1944 I can’t quite remember exact date. It might have been the 4th or 5th. Anyway, they successfully, they were bombing a V1 bomb site. It was 61 squadron aircraft. QR D Dog was the aircraft. Bill North was, Bill North, flight lieutenant. He was the flying officer at the time but it was Bill North, Bill North was the pilot and his aircraft was QR Dog. Now they were to, from thirteen thousand feet they were going to bomb the V1 sites. Now, which they were the first aircraft to bomb it and after, as they left the target an FW190 sprayed their aircraft. It blew away the fin, the port fin. It blew away the port fin. Blew away the port outer engine and fuel tank and it also it splattered the middle of the turret. Now, the mid upper gunner, now I used to say it was either between six and eight bullets, non life saving bullets in his body. Unbelievable. Splattered the turret. Anyway, it splattered all the Perspex, the cockpit Perspex and, and the pilot screamed out in agony as four bullets hit him. Two in his thigh and two in his left arm. Now, his left arm one of them hit the nerve and it paralysed his arm so his arm was flailing there. Now, immediately and the aircraft immediately begins, it’s earthbound screaming towards the earth. He immediately gives instructions to bail out and begins to drag himself out to go to the escape hatch. Now, as he drags himself out of the seat the flight engineer who is sitting by his side reaches back. Now, as the pilot had sat on his parachute. Now, but the, but the flight engineer and the rest most of the crew, the rear turret and rear gunner all had clip on chutes now his was clipped on the fuselage. Now, he reaches back to unclip his, his ‘chute off the fuselage, the side of the fuselage and as he pulls it off it’s been shot to pieces by bullets. It’s just at that point Bill was about to drop out of the escape hatch. Quickly he grabs hold of his shoulder and shouts my parachutes gone, my parachutes gone. Now, nobody would have blamed Bill North If he’d have thought to himself nothing I can do. I’m badly injured myself and just to have gone just to continue to drop out but without one second thought he made a conscious decision to drag himself back into his to his controls. Now, the, the landing an aircraft, a Lancaster is a two man job. You need, you need the help of the flight engineer. The flight engineer was frozen with fear. Couldn’t do anything. Now, Bill North, with one hand, his adrenalin must have been five hundred percent I have no idea how he did it but unbelievably with the aircraft screaming earthbound he regains control and in pitch darkness not only did he regain control but in this very heavily wooded area he found, he found a clearing, brought the aircraft in to land from an impossible height at an impossible speed. No, no flaps involved because the bloke couldn’t, the flight engineer couldn’t do anything. Had the presence of mind as he brought the aircraft in to land it tail down so there would be less danger of fuel tank, of fuel explosion and landed and when it became stationery he was so weak from the loss of blood that he slipped into unconsciousness. Now then, as it turned out not only had he saved the life of the flight engineer alongside him but apparently the mid upper gunner and another person, I think wireless operator, were both trapped in the fuselage because their turret ‘chutes had been shot to pieces, so they, as I say he slipped into unconsciousness so they had to carry, carry him, they had to carry him out of the aircraft and as they laid him on the grass at the side of the plane he slipped into unconsciousness and they thought he was dying. Anyway, time went by. The French were involved but I can’t remember who else was involved but in time the Germans came, whisked him into a hospital and he remained in hospital for several months after which he was, he was transferred to a concentration camp and he finished the war, and finished the war in a concentration camp. For this he didn’t get any mention in despatches. Not even a mention in despatches. Absolutely disgraceful. This is, this is, this is VC stuff. Now when Mr Ball when, when Nigel Ball contacted me I, I wrote this story, this was several years before, I wrote his story on my website. Now last year, October during last year the, the sons of, of Bill North, he’d passed away the year before, wrote to David Cameron to thank him for what he’d to done to get the air crew their memorial in London and thanked him for getting the clasp. Bloody clasp. Ridiculous. Anyway, anyway out of the blue, credit to David Cameron. David Cameron phoned them personally. No wrote to them personally and invited to them to come and see him at the, at the House of Commons. Now, they decided that what a golden opportunity this to try and get a posthumous award for their father. So they put together a delegation of about ten people and they wanted a representative of the squadron association to be, to be, to be with them. Now, as to whether I was the only one or not I’ve no idea but I was the person that was invited to go. Now, I travelled down to London and I remember, I remember we, we, David Cameron was wonderful actually. I remember he took us and we were chatting to him in his office and he was chatting to all the party and I couldn’t hear him he was right at the far end of the room and I says, ‘I can’t hear.’ And he says, ‘ok’ and got, upped sticks and came and sat right to the side of me and I’m listening to them talking. Now, quite honestly as I was listening to him you know how people are when they’re talking to someone of higher authority? They, they become meek and mild don’t they? And I’m listening and I don’t hear very well. After they’d been going on for quite some time I thought to myself they’re missing the point so in actual fact I had spoken to him and told him that why I was there to represent the association and I, I interceded. I said, ‘But sir, we’re missing the point of our visit.’ and I says and I then went into detail of this, of what Bill North had done and I says to him this is bloody Victoria Cross stuff and for this he gets nothing. Not even a mention in despatches. This is a complete disgrace and I remember, I remember David Cameron looked set aback and he looks at me and says, ‘Well I don’t know. All the hassle I’m getting here.’ He said in a friendly way. It wasn’t nasty. ‘All the hassle I’m getting here and he says the hassle I’ve had in question time today and he says and it’s my birthday today.’ And I said, ‘I beg your pardon?’ He said, ‘It’s my birthday today.’ I says, ‘It’s mine as well’ and he reached over and he said, ‘Birthday boys.’ [laughs]
[laugh]
There you are but do you know something we had, we had a celebration last year for my ninetieth birthday and, and, and seventieth wedding anniversary and last year. It was in October. October. And last year, about three weeks before our, before our party a friend of ours and I don’t know how he got this phone number my friend answers the phone and this voice says, ‘Hello, this is David Cameron here’ and she says, ‘Oh don’t – tell me another one.’ And he said, ‘No. This is David Cameron ringing from the House of Commons. Can you give me the details of Mr and Mrs Flowers celebrations’ on the, and you know he said, ‘Because I want to send them a letter’ and lo and behold lo and behold on the, on the, my birthday arrives a letter comes, ‘Dear Mr Flowers,’ from the House of Commons ‘I’m writing to you wish you a very happy ninetieth birthday. This is a marvellous occasion and I’m sure you will use this opportunity to celebrate all your many achievements and all you have seen and experienced. I would like to send you, Samantha and my best wishes for a wonderful birthday.’ That was on the 9th of October. On the 21st of October we gets another one. ‘Dear Mr and Mrs Flowers I am delighted to send my congratulations to you both on your seventieth wedding anniversary. It’s a huge achievement to celebrate such a long and happy marriage. A great example to family and friends and your local community. Samantha and I would like to wish you all the best on your anniversary. We very much hope you enjoy your celebrations. Have a lovely day. David Cameron.’ We of course did have the letter from the queen we all know the queen the queen had millions. She can’t do it personally do it you know that’s a secretary but to think that David Cameron made the effort during such political time to ring my friend up to find out details of our celebrations and then to ring us up and send this. As a matter of fact I sent him a Christmas card and he sent me a Christmas card back.
[laughs]
There you are, now, that’s different isn’t it? In conclusion I would like to go back to the time in 1941/2, I can’t remember the exact date, my first sighting of my dear wife. Of my Eunice. I remember at the time I was working on munitions twelve hour shifts a day, week about and I was on daylight day shifts this time and I’d finished at 7 o’clock, cycled home and, and home and quick change and cycled back two miles to Sutton in Ashfield baths which had been converted to a dance hall and as I went in it had a balcony. I went in about 9 o’clock. I climbed the stairs to the balcony and I remember looking down and it was a teeming mass of dancing local people, RAF, navy all having an absolute, and a wonderful band with all the top, all having, and the RAC band was there. It had top musicians in it and I remember I was looking down and I saw right beneath me I saw this beautiful young lady in a yellow and white check dress. I’m not saying anything wrong but she was flitting from one male to, from one friend to another. She was obviously the life and soul of the party and I thought to myself God what a cracker. So, quick as lightning I rushed downstairs and I stood in the background until the opportunity came and I tapped her on the shoulder and I said to her, ‘Can I have a dance please?’ and ‘ Yes.’ And the first time I held her in my arms oh she didn’t have make me quiver and it was the first time that I met my dear wife. [laughs] How I ended up with her I will never know. She was so beautiful and so energetic. She was out every night dancing. There were thousands of soldiers all around training all on the lookout, all on the lookout for, for, for as beautiful women and here I was just working on munitions. Nothing going for me. My chances of making a go with her were very very slim. Anyway, gradually I became a friends. It was two years before she’d call me a friend. But there you are. That’s how I met my dear wife and there we are seventy years later. Love of my life. Still feel as we did as all those years ago. Beautiful woman. Still beautiful woman still beautiful in my eyes. How’s that. As I say I’m in my ninetieth year and I can’t help thinking of my family. Thinking of the time on the 25th October when our first son Ian was born and when he was accidently deaf when he was only thirteen and a half you never get over it, time never heals it. The birth of my second son Richard and when he was accidentally shot in the head by his wife. He was so lucky to have survived. Then my third Phillip born ‘68, ‘58 and to his lovely daughter. She was absolutely beautiful. Passed away when she was two years and nine months. Then there was my fourth son was a whopper when he was born and the, and the midwife says to my he’s the biggest baby I’ve ever had and she said ironically he’s the biggest baby I’ve had as well. Then I think to the stresses and strains and excitement I felt during my aircrew years and the thirty two years as a driving examiner and to the pleasure we felt on the birth of two granddaughters, eight grandsons, fourteen great grandchildren and finally I recall the seventy years that I’ve been married to my dear wife Eunice. I can’t help thinking of all the times I felt like throwing her in the bloody river or burying her with the plants in the garden yet despite all this she still remains the love of my life. Such wonderful memories.
I would like to end by saying that during the time that we, as a crew, were involved in bomber operations we were attacked by ME109s, JU88s, FW190s, ME262s jet fighters, passed through flak you could have walked on, almost touched passing aircraft, almost crashed through fuel shortage and fell vertically from eleven thousand to five hundred feet. Nothing special. Just the normal sort of thing that most Bomber Command aircrew had to put up with during World War 2. Happy days.
MJ: On behalf of the Bomber Command I’d like to thank James Flowers for his interview on the 2nd of June 2015. This is Michael Jeffries, recordist.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with James Flowers
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Horace James Flowers was born and grew up in Huthwaite, Nottinghamshire. He became an apprentice butcher before being released to volunteer for the Royal Air Force in 1944. He trained as an air gunner at RAF Bridgnorth, RAF Wigsley and RAF Syerston and attained the rank of flight sergeant, serving largely with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. He recounts his experiences on several operations, including Bohlen, Nordhausen, Lutzendorf and Hamburg. He was transferred to 44 squadron in June 1945 as part of the intended Tiger Force and also took part in Operation Dodge. He also discusses how he met his wife, Eunice, and their marriage in 1944, his role with the 50/61 Squadron Association after the war, authorship of a memoir ‘A Tail End Charlie’s Story’ and the occasion of his ninetieth birthday when he received a call from the Prime Minister, David Cameron.
Creator
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Michael Jeffries
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:58:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Identifier
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AFlowersHJ150602, PFlowersHJ1501, PFlowersHJ1502
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Böhlen
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Lutzendorf
Germany--Hamburg
Germany
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
44 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
fear
final resting place
Fw 190
Ju 88
love and romance
Master Bomber
Me 109
Me 262
military discipline
military ethos
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
P-51
Pathfinders
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
recruitment
Spitfire
Stirling
Tallboy
target indicator
Tiger force
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/205/3340/ABatesP151009.1.mp3
f5fd2ef009e496cfc1da092a451f6c89
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bates, Philip
Philip Bates
P Bates
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Philip Bates (1307447 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 149 Squadron until his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bates, P
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Mr Philip Bates at home in Urmston, Greater Manchester on Friday 9th of October at 2pm. Mr Bates could you please confirm your full name?
PB: Yes. Phillip Bates.
BW: And your rank.
PB: Sergeant when I was shot down but warrant officer when I returned back from being a prisoner of war.
BW: Ok. And do you recall your service number at all?
PB: Yes 1307447.
BW: It’s surprising how that -
PB: And I can tell you my prisoner of war number as well
BW: Ok.
PB: 222803
BW: 222803
PB: Stalag 4b.
BW: Ok. And what squadron were you on, sir?
PB: 149 at Lakenheath.
BW: Ok. So if you could just give us an idea of what your life was like prior to joining the air force so where you grew up and any sort of significant movements before joining the RAF and what prompted you to join.
PB: Yeah. Well I’m a native of Burnley, Lancashire, a cotton weaving town, until I was employed as a junior clerk with a local manufacturer but once the war started I was keen to get in and immediately after the fall of France I volunteered for the air force. And -
BW: So this would be May 1940.
PB: This would be May 1940 and went to Blackpool for a fortnight square bashing.
BW: Ok.
PB: Those of us who were on that particular course were then posted to Cosford and -
BW: Ok.
PB: Nobody thought about anything in those days except the imminent invasion of Britain and we who’d been in the air force a fortnight were given the job of defending Cosford against German paratroopers which was the most farcical thing you could ever imagine so a friend and I very quickly sneaked away to the orderly room and volunteered for training as flight mechanics and we both -
BW: Ok.
PB: Trained as flight mechanics and then as fitter 2E’s and my friend was posted to 149 squadron where I met up with him in 1943. I went to 86 squadron, Coastal Command flying the Beaufort torpedo bombers and moved from there to Scotland and eventually I was sent to Sealand to a huge maintenance depot on a six month potential NCO course with the intention that when I returned back to my unit I’d be made a corporal but whilst I was at Sealand a Manchester landed and this was June 1942 and I went to look at this Manchester. I’d never seen anything bigger than a, than a Wellington before and this thing was stood there with its bomb doors open and this was a few months after Butch Harris had taken charge and I looked up into that bomb bay and I said to myself. ‘Bomber Command is no longer a joke. It’s big. It’s getting bigger. I’ve got to be part of it,’ and so the next day I volunteered for training as a flight engineer.
BW: Ok.
PB: And I trained early in 1943. Posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Waterbeach where I was crewed up with a crew who had just finished their OTU on Wellingtons and we went from there.
BW: And so just thinking back to your decision to join Bomber Command. You’d already had some technical training -
PB: Yes.
BW: At that stage.
PB: Yes.
BW: And so you wanted to further that as a flight engineer.
PB: Well the obvious job for a fitter 2E was to be, was to be a flight engineer.
BW: Ok.
PB: And it didn’t require a great deal of training to bridge the gap of course.
BW: And there were a number of guys who went through Halton. Did you do any training for flight engineering at Halton or not? With [?]
PB: No. St Athan.
BW: Right.
PB: St Athan.
BW: So you weren’t one of Trenchard’s brats or anything?
PB: Oh no I wasn’t a brat. I was too old to be a brat [laughs].
BW: And so it was the sight of the Manchester that prompted you to join.
PB: Yes.
BW: Properly Bomber Command.
PB: Yes, yes.
BW: Were you able, at that stage, to volunteer for flying duties or did that come later? Did you foresee that as being part of that trade as a flight engineer?
PB: Once I became a flight, once I became a flight engineer obviously I was going to go into Bomber Command.
BW: Ok. And -
PB: When I arrived at St Athan I was given choices I could train to be. I could train to be on Stirlings or Halifaxes or Lancasters or Sunderland Flying Boats or Catalina Flying Boats. Now, as a fitter I’d always worked on radial engines and so I chose this, I chose the Stirling for the reason that it was Bomber Command and it had radial engines. It perhaps wasn’t the wisest choice. I’d have been better off on Lancasters probably but I I I liked the radial engine so that’s why I chose Stirlings.
BW: Speaking as an engineer how did you find the radials then? Were there, were there particular properties about them that you liked?
PB: Yes. They, they, they were more powerful than the Merlin for starters and they were more dependable and they could take more, they could take more damage.
BW: That’s er that -
PB: When I when I was a boy very keen on aircraft now to me the inline liquid cooled engine was just a big motor car engine. The radial was a proper aeroplane engine.
BW: Ok.
PB: That’s what it was all about for me. The radial was a proper aeroplane engine. The other was just a big motor car engine.
BW: I’m sensing there there’s a difference between the aerial engine and flying. Did you have a wish to fly at an early age?
PB: Well as a fitter whenever I worked on an aircraft and a pilot came along to do a test flight I invariably asked if I could go up with him so I flew on, I flew on Lysanders, Blenheims and Oxfords as a passenger.
BW: And which of those was your favourite? Which was -
PB: Oh the Lysander.
BW: Really?
PB: Oh gorgeous. You’re going, you’re going along and there’s a slow, you heard a terrible creaking noise and the slots and slats worked and the flaps come down.
BW: Ahum.
PB: And you could practically stand still. Wonderful aeroplane. Wonderful.
BW: They used that -
PB: Aeroplane.
BW: On special duties -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Squadrons.
PB: Short take off, short landings.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But they were, they were a lovely aircraft to be a passenger in.
PB: Oh yes.
BW: Was it?
PB: It was a marvellous aeroplane was the Lysander. I loved it.
BW: Did you get many flights in those?
PB: Yes quite a few. Yes. I was on, I was on an ackack calibration unit. We worked in concert with the defences of Edinburgh the Forth Bridge and the Rosyth dockyard and I was once in a Lysander where we did dive bombing exercises on the Forth Bridge which was fantastic.
BW: Brilliant.
PB: Absolutely fantastic. It was like being in a JU87 almost.
BW: And this was just to calibrate the ackack guns as you say.
PB: Yes.
BW: To make sure they had the right sort of -
PB: Yes.
BW: Ranging or -
PB: Yes. Yes.
BW: Distance. There were no rounds fired in these -
PB: No. No. No just -
BW: Just to make sure.
PB: Calibration yeah.
BW: Right but either way the pilot imitated a dive bombing manoeuvre on a
PB: Yeah but we had a real clapped out aircraft.
BW: So having had some experience of Lysanders, a single engine aircraft and Oxfords the twin engine.
PB: Yeah.
BW: You then -
PB: All radial engines of course.
BW: And radial engines yeah you then opted while you were at St Athan to go forward for Stirlings.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And what was the course that lead you from St Athan to your squadron? How, how did you go about getting that?
PB: Well, we, we completed our course and we got our brevies and were posted to, to Waterbeach Heavy Conversion Unit and I was introduced to a pilot, a Pilot Officer Cotterill and he was my skipper and I then met the rest of the crew and we took it from there. Did our heavy conversion training.
BW: And how long did that take? Roughly.
PB: Not very long. Maybe about eight weeks I suppose. Something like that.
BW: And was most of that or all of it daylight sorties or were there night time -
PB: No.
BW: Ops involved as well?
PB: We did, we did two four hour sessions of daylight take offs and landings, circuits and bumps. Take of twenty minutes to take off and land for four hours. And having done eight hours of that in daytime we did another eight hours at night and then after that we did, we did cross country flights.
BW: And when you met your crew at this point did you stay together from the conversion unit through to, on operational squadron as the same crew or were the members interchanged?
PB: We lost two members. We lost two members shortly after we joined the squadron.
BW: And was there a reason behind that at all?
PB: Yes. Our first, our first navigator, Geoff was a regular soldier stationed in India when the war broke out. Browned off. To escape he volunteered for training as air crew. He had a stammer which didn’t help and he was a useless navigator and we knew he was useless and our first trip was a very simple mine laying in the North Sea and he flew us straight through the balloon barrage at Norwich coming back and the next day he packed his kit bags and left us.
BW: And was that his choice or -
PB: No. No, that was forced upon him.
BW: Right ok so it wasn’t something there like a moment of self-awareness. He decided to leave.
PB: No. No, he told, he told us he said, ‘They decided I’m not suitable for Bomber Command. I’m being posted to a Coastal Command station.’ Well I think that was just a face saver on his part. I can’t imagine what happened to him but he couldn’t navigate for toffee. Even, even, even with a Gee set he was useless.
BW: Ahum.
PB: And then we did two mine laying trips. We did a lot of fighter affiliation exercises and our mid upper gunner [Bolivar?] a Londoner was brilliant during, during fighter affiliation. Now, Len, Len the wireless operator was always sick. He spewed up everywhere and I sat there and think, ‘Why don’t you crash the bloody thing and get it over with.’ That’s how bad I felt and Bob was as happy as could be but we did two mine laying trips. One in the North Sea -
BW: Ahum.
PB: And one in the river estuary at Bordeaux and then our first target was the opening night of the Battle of Hamburg. 24th of July.
BW: This would be 24th of July 1943.
PB: Yeah. The next night we went to Essen. The next day our mid upper gunner reported sick with air sickness. Now, how he suddenly became air sick overnight I do not know but that was the end of him. So we had a new navigator and a new mid upper gunner.
BW: Sometimes after raids like that men would be removed if they were felt to perhaps have broken at some stage. Do you -
PB: Oh yes.
BW: Do you think that might have been an impact?
PB: Yes. He was still, he was still on the station when we were shot down and I’ve often wondered what he made of it that morning when he woke up and found five empty beds.
BW: And so if I can just touch again on the fighter affiliation. What kind of exercises were carried out there?
PB: Well either, either a Spitfire or a, or a Hurricane would make mock attacks on us and the gunners would give instructions to the skipper as to what evasive action to take and it was quite, it was quite, because our bomb aimer was a failed pilot who could fly, fly a Stirling perfectly well and the Stirling had dual controls so him and the pilot used to work together and we could really throw it about. Really throw it about. You could never have done that on a Lancaster what we did with a Stirling,
BW: No. There was only a single set of controls.
PB: Yeah. Oh it was a wonderful aircraft. Wonderful manoeuvrability aircraft. Couldn’t get very high but by George it could, it could manoeuvre.
BW: And so you mentioned about the raid on Hamburg. That was pretty close to being your first operational sortie.
PB: That was our first target yes after two mine laying trips.
BW: And what, what do you recall about that at all because it was Operation Gomorrah, the raid on Hamburg was pretty significant.
PB: It was operational. What, what, what was most fascinated me most was the colours. The colours of the lights. Reds, greens, yellows. Searchlights, blue searchlights, tracer shells, flak it was an incredible sight. An incredible sight and when you see, when you looked down and someone had just released a string of four pound incendiaries you’d get this brilliant white light like that and then it slowly turns red as the fire gets going. An incredible sight.
BW: So you’d see a sort of a line of white which would -
PB: Yes.
BW: Presumably be the magnesium -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In the incendiaries -
PB: Yes.
BW: Setting fire to the building which was then of course -
PB: Yes.
BW: Catch turn orange and burn.
PB: Yes it was quite remarkable.
BW: And did you only make the one raid on Hamburg or did you return because there was -
PB: We, we, we -
BW: Four days I think.
PB: In ten days this was our introduction to the target. In ten days we did four Hamburgs, an Essen and a [Remshite]
BW: Wow so you flew right through the raid on, or the operation against Hamburg -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In that case.
PB: And the second night of course. The night of the firestorm oh, deary deary me, that was terrible.
BW: Were you aware at all of what was, what was going on? It seems a lot of information has come out subsequently. What were you sort of aware of the damage at that time?
PB: Well where -
BW: While flying.
PB: On the second night when we were back over the sea I went up into the astrodome and looked back and there was only one fire in Hamburg that night. It looked to be about three miles across and it came straight up white, red and black smoke thousands of feet above us and I said over the intercom, ‘those poor bastards down there.’ I couldn’t help myself. It was a terrible, terrible sight. I’ve never seen anything like it on any other target.
BW: At once it’s a spectacular sight but it’s also when you see that sort of thing -
PB: We, we, we killed forty thousand people that night.
BW: When did that, when was that made aware to you? When did you become aware of that sort of statistic? Was it pretty soon after or was it -
PB: Well the newspapers reported it a couple of days later and gave the number of dead.
BW: Right.
PB: And quite honestly I was disappointed. I thought from I saw it must have killed more than that.
BW: It sounds like they might have underestimated.
PB: Yeah. But forty thousand people were killed that night.
BW: Ahum.
PB: Compare that to how many were killed in London in the entire period of the war. There was no comparison.
BW: No. It’s different isn’t it?
PB: But we never, we never, we never achieved anything like Hamburg again until Dresden of course and in Dresden it only killed twenty odd thousand.
BW: And so Hamburg has obviously made quite an impression for that reason.
PB: Hamburg, I think was undoubtedly Bomber Command’s greatest success of the war. I’ve just, I’ve just read a book by Adolf Galland who was in charge of the German night fighters and the things he says about what the consequences of Hamburg and what it meant to the High Command and the changes it was, it shattered them. Completely shattered them.
BW: So it had, it had certainly had ramifications on the ground but it had more ramifications for the Luftwaffe High Command is what you’re saying.
PB: Yes. Yes. It terrified the German fighter defence to pieces. Terrified them.
BW: And did you see many night fighters at this stage over Hamburg? Were they active?
PB: No because it was it was the first, it was just the introduction of Window and everything was at odds.
BW: And so Window was the anti-radar -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Jamming mechanism.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Where they chucked out strips of aluminium.
PB: But they recovered, they recovered from, from Window very very quickly and they got, they got a new form of defence which was more effective they forced it out before, before Window and I’ve read the German view that Window did more harm than good for Bomber Command in the long run because it completely organised their defences.
BW: But at least on that night or on those nights that you were flying over Hamburg the fighters were ineffective because -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Of the use of Window.
PB: The first night there were eight hundred aircraft and we lost twelve.
BW: Wow.
PB: And most of those were lost because they were off course. Separated away from the protection of Window.
BW: Were there any hits from the ackack below? German anti-aircraft fire was renowned as being very accurate. Did you feel that as you were flying over there?
PB: The one thing, the one thing that fascinated me about ackack was that the smell of cordite filled the aircraft. You were flying through clouds of the stuff but when we landed the bomb aimer and I always got our torches and we searched underneath the aircraft and if there was no damage we were disappointed. We expected to have been hit.
BW: So that, that, sort of, I suppose summarises or encompasses your first few trips on operations. What happened after Hamburg? What were the next -
PB: Well we flew on -
BW: Significant raids for you.
PB: We flew on the last two raids ever carried out on Northern Italy and we flew twice to Nuremberg which we always regarded as a particularly important Nazi target and we did a few other various towns in the Ruhr and then on the 31st of August we went to Berlin and that was something else. That was an absolute complete fiasco.
BW: And this was still 1943?
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: In August ’43.
PB: Yeah. The raid on Berlin on the 31st of August. Well the trouble was we’d been, we’d been to Monchengladbach the night before and we quite often did two nights, two consecutive nights. Well, you do Monchengladbach you get very little sleep, you go for briefing and you’re told its Berlin. There were howls of rage from all the air crews and that manifested itself later because that night about eighty aircraft ditched their bombs in the North Sea and returned early. Biggest number ever ‘cause people weren’t prepared to go.
BW: That, that almost sounds a bit like a mutiny in a way doesn’t it?
PB: It’s not far off.
BW: Down tools.
PB: It’s not far off really but the raid was also badly planned. All the damage to Berlin had been in the west and it was intended that this raid should do damage in the east and so we were sent to a point south of Berlin. There was Berlin on our left. We expected to fly seventy miles east. Split-arsed turn, fly seventy miles back and approach Berlin from, from the east. Now, nobody did it. The pathfinders put their markers down two miles south of where they should have been and we all approached from the south so the creepback extended miles and miles and miles. We killed less than a hundred people in Berlin. We lost over two hundred airmen killed and over a hundred prisoners of war. It was a complete and utter fiasco.
BW: Wow and that simply stemmed from, as you say, the pathfinder markers being dropped two miles south.
PB: And we’re coming from the south.
BW: Yeah.
PB: You can imagine it, practically no bombs and the Germans that night for the first time put down these parachute flares. It was like driving down the Mall with all the lights on. It was an incredible sight and it’s such a big place to get through. It takes forever.
BW: And so the gunners clearly with those parachute flares they could have a clear sight presumably of the bomber stream.
PB: And you’ve got day fighters looking down.
BW: Wow.
PB: As well as the night fighters looking up and you’ve got the schragemusik by this time as well.
BW: Which are the cannons in the back of an ME110 to fire vertically underneath the bomber yeah.
PB: Yeah or a JU88.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Or a Messerschmitt 110.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Seventy degree angle, in between the inborn engine and the fuselage hit the main tanks. All you’d see is a great big flash in the sky and that’s it. It was gone.
BW: The crews often said they didn’t know they were there.
PB: No.
BW: Those who survived didn’t see them.
PB: You could see an aircraft flying peacefully and then the next second it’s a ball of fire and you’ll see no tracer and a myth arose and the myth was that the Germans were firing a new type of bomb, a new type of shell which we called a scarecrow and it was designed not to shoot aircraft down but to explode and give the impression of an aircraft blowing up and for months navigators would log these and they weren’t scarecrows. The Germans never had a scarecrow. They were aircraft blowing up.
BW: Actually the aircraft themselves.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And -
PB: And the irony of that is that in the First World War the British had upward firing guns to attack zeppelins.
BW: Ahum Yeah.
PB: [laughs] They never learn.
BW: Because they were difficult to shoot down as well. But so ok from, from there that’s two operations on the trot really. Monchengladbach and Berlin.
PB: Yeah.
BW: You mentioned those airmen killed. Were any of those from the squadron? Did you know any of those guys at all? Were there Stirlings in that lot that were shot down?
PB: Er we there was a raid on Berlin on the 24th of August as well but we were on leave but a crew that we trained with went missing that night and a friend of mine got shot down on the night we were on. A fella called Lew Parsons. He was shot down on the 31st .
BW: Luke Parsons?
PB: Yeah. L E W, short for Lewis.
BW: Oh I see. Lew Parsons.
PB: He was a flight engineer.
BW: And he was shot down on the 31st of August.
PB: Yeah. Yeah. But it, it was a dreadful night. Anyway, the next day our skipper and our navigator were commissioned officers and so the next day we met up with the skipper and he said Johnny’s reported sick and Johnny was our navigator. Flying Officer Johnny [Turton ]. A fantastic navigator. Absolutely fantastic and he’d gone sick and later in the day we were given a replacement. Another flying officer but a New Zealander by the name of McLean and he was the exact opposite from Johnny. Johnny was a big outgoing personality who radiated confidence. This chap had no, no, no personality whatsoever. He was with us five days. We scarcely ever saw him. We scarcely ever spoke to him. We never even learned his Christian name. And he got us shot down.
BW: And that was, of course then going to be your last -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Last flight.
PB: Yeah 5th 5th of September. Mannheim.
BW: Ok. I was just going to ask a question there and it’s just gone from my memory but I’ll probably come back to it. So, oh yes how far into your tour were you at that point? It sounds -
PB: That was our fifteenth trip.
BW: So exactly halfway through.
PB: Exactly halfway. We knew with Johnny we could do, we could do the tour because he was so brilliant but without him we were lost and he finished his tour. He joined another crew, finished his tour got his DFC, survived the war. He was brilliant.
BW: It’s strange how fate goes isn’t it?
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Before we move on to your experience of being shot down I would just like to ask about what it was like for you as a flight engineer in the sort of preparation and flying out. What sort of things you would do? Perhaps if you could give us a sense of preparation you would go through to -
PB: Yes.
BW: To board the aircraft.
PB: Yes.
BW: What it was like to then go up in a Stirling.
PB: Well to begin with once we got out the aircraft there were a great many pre-flight checks to do. One of them was to go up onto the main plane with a member of the ground crew. Now, we had fourteen petrol tanks on a Stirling. Sometimes we only had the four main ones. Sometimes we had fourteen. Sometimes we had a mixture but my job was to go up on to the main plane with a member of the ground crew and he would open up the filler caps on all the tanks that were supposed to be full and I had to check visually that they were full to the, to the brim. Now, every night I’m stood on the leading edge of a Stirling. I’m twenty feet above the ground. I think when he moves to the next one and I follow, if I slip I’ll roll down the main plane I’ll fall fifteen feet to the tarmac and at the very least I’ll break an ankle and I’ll be alive tomorrow morning and I always, always considered that thought. I never did it of course. The thought was always there. It was in our own power to be alive tomorrow morning [laughs]. But once, once in the air my two main jobs was one to monitoring engine performance making sure the pressures, temperature etcetera were as they should be and that we were flying at the right airspeed and the right revs and the other was calculating every twenty minutes I had to calculate the amount of petrol used from whichever tank doing the past every twenty minutes recorded so that I always knew how much petrol remained in each tank because they weren’t over generous with their petrol allowance and people did run short very often. So that was, that was important, to keep, to know exactly how much petrol you had and where it was.
BW: So even though you’d done inspections and the ground crew had correctly filled the tanks presumably you could encounter unknown winds and like a headwind.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And use your fuel more quickly.
PB: As I understand it the calculation was made. This is your track. It’s so many miles. You’ve so much petrol. We’ll give you so much and we’ll give you another three hundred and twenty gallons as a, as a reserve.
BW: Reserve.
PB: But of course you get off track, winds are against you, anything can happen. You can’t hold height, you’ve got to get into rich mixture to climb again. All sorts of things could happen to make you use more fuel.
BW: And that would include of course having to take evasive action over the target or anything like that.
PB: Yes, evasive, any time when you had to open up the engines and go into full fuel. We were using a gallon a minute.
BW: That’s pretty significant and that’s just through one engine. A gallon a minute through an engine.
PB: No. It’s, that’s the aircraft.
BW: Oh, the aircraft. Ok.
PB: A gallon a mile through the aircraft.
BW: Oh right.
PB: A gallon a minute through each engine yes.
BW: And I think you said the Stirling was a, was a lovely aircraft to fly. What was your experience generally of the environment in which you were having to work? Was it cramped or was there enough room to do your job?
PB: I’ve only been in a Lancaster once and it horrified me. There’s no space to breathe. You could hold a dance in a Stirling. It was huge and because of the short wingspan it was so highly manoeuvrable. It was a beautiful aeroplane but it couldn’t get any height. Couldn’t get any height.
BW: A limited ceiling.
PB: We had to fight to fly at thirteen thousand. On the last night at Hamburg. The night of the big storm we did two runs over Hamburg at eight thousand feet with the bomb doors frozen up.
BW: Wow.
PB: That was a terrible night.
BW: Just out of interest the air supply gets pretty thin around ten thousand feet. Did you ever have to use oxygen?
PB: It goes on automatically at ten thousand feet.
BW: Right.
PB: Ten thousand feet, oxygen on and skipper charges into S gear.
BW: Into S gear.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And does that give you extra boost through the engines?
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Ok and were you able, in some cases crews had to stow their parachutes. Were you able to move around with your parachutes on or did you stow it?
PB: No it was always stowed. Always stowed away.
BW: How did it feel when you were actually bombed and fuelled up ready to go and you’re at the threshold of the runway and you’d got the green light. Could you just talk us through that?
PB: Well -
BW: What you were feeling there and what you were doing?
PB: I experienced three feelings. Between briefing and going out to the aircraft, absolute terror. Once we delivered the bombs and the photoflash had gone off, wonderful. Once back eating bacon and eggs very, very satisfied. Those were the three emotions that I suffered.
BW: How did it feel when you were given that that green light? Presumably as a flight engineer you followed the pilot through on the throttles.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you feel this surge of power of the engines going.
PB: Yeah all all the while was concentrating on getting the thing up because the Stirling had a violent swing. It had this ridiculous undercarriage and because of the torque of the engines it swung to starboard and you had to correct that swing either on the throttles or the stick. Now, if you got a cross wind as well that swing could be quite dramatic and it went like that and then like that.
BW: So a violent swerve either way.
PB: The undercarriage just collapsed you don’t want an undercarriage collapsing when you’ve got a thousand -
BW: No.
PB: Incendiary bombs stuck in the belly [laughs].
BW: Were there any incidents where aircraft were unable to take off because of that? They perhaps didn’t control the swing or there was a cross wind.
PB: Oh yeah. The very first Stirling on its very first flight in the hands of a very skilled test pilot on its very first landing wrote its undercarriage off.
BW: Simply because of the swing due the power in the engines.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the imbalance.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And yet it looks from, as you say, the size of it -
PB: Yeah.
BW: It looks a very stable beast to fly.
PB: It’s incredibly strong that way. It’s not very strong that way.
BW: So longitudinally strength.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And laterally not so good.
PB: It was a very strong undercarriage but it’s so tall it [put a side strain on it] like that.
BW: Yeah.
PB: It goes. Time and time again.
BW: And of course these are pure manual controls. They’re not power assisted in any way.
PB: Oh no. No.
BW: So, but it was generally very smooth to fly and very easy to fly once you were airborne.
PB: Oh it was a beautiful aeroplane to fly. Beautiful. It really was. It was like a [? ] You could do anything with it.
BW: How many were, were in your crew? There were normally seven in a Lancaster.
PB: Seven yeah.
BW: The same in the Stirling.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you had initially for your first part of your tour you had Johnnie [Turton] as your navigator.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And your pilot. Who was your pilot?
PB: Pilot. When I joined him in May it was Pilot Officer Bernard Cotterell.
BW: That’s right.
PB: By the time we were shot down he was Acting Flight Lieutenant Bernard Cotterell.
BW: Is that C O T T E R -
PB: Yeah.
BW: I L L?
PB: Yeah. E L L.
BW: E L L. And so who are the, you mentioned your wireless op.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Um, who was Len -
PB: Len Smith. Bomb aimer was Alan Crowther.
BW: Alan Crowther.
PB: Yeah the rear gunner was John [Carp?] a Scotsman.
BW: John [Carp?]
PB: He was always known as Jock rather than John.
BW: Jock.
PB: And the new, the new mid upper gunner was a Newcastle lad called Ray Wall.
BW: Ray Wall.
PB: Yeah, Ray Wall. There were only five of us, as I say, left from the original crew and of those five I was the only survivor. The mid upper, the mid upper survived and this new navigator survived?
BW: And so from there we’ve looked at sort of the raids and the preparation for them. What sort of things would happen on the return to base? You’d obviously be debriefed but what form would that take?
PB: Well, we, we, we always flew at the recommended airspeeds which got you the most miles per gallon. A lot of people just simply flew back as fast as they could regardless of wasting petrol so we were invariably the last aircraft to land which meant we always had to queue up to wait to be de debriefed which was a nuisance but then of course it was the bacon and egg lark. Bacon and egg time and off to bed.
BW: And what, what was the accommodation like? You were all crewed up. Were they in nissen huts. Was there a crews either side or was it -
PB: We, we, we were in a nissen -
BW: Different.
PB: Hut and I think we shared it with two other crews and one morning, one morning you would find that half the beds are made up and all everything’s gone because they had disappeared but the thing is you never, you never associated with anybody outside your crew. There was no point to it.
BW: Really.
PB: No point to it at all. A crew was a very. very tight little, little group. We did everything together.
BW: And so even though there would be two other crews in the, in the nissen hut with you you would still socialise only with your own crew.
PB: Oh yeah we never bothered with anybody else. Very rarely spoke to anybody else even.
BW: And where did you go during your off-duty hours? Where did you socialise?
PB: Oh the village pub in Lakenheath.
BW: Do you recall the name?
PB: No, I don’t actually. No.
BW: Ah.
PB: But I do remember there was a Mrs Philips who used to provide us with suppers some times. Just across the road. She used to put on bacon and egg suppers. I don’t know where she got the bacon and eggs from but she used to put on bacon and egg suppers.
BW: Just as a special treat for you.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the rest of the crew.
PB: But you know you sit in the village pub at night and you were surrounded by farmers and butchers and bakers and all the rest of it. People for whom the war was just something they read about in the newspapers and you were just so happy, you’re so happy. It’s wonderful. There’s nothing like a crew. Nothing. Incredible relationship. Incredible.
BW: And did you have opportunity to mix with other locals? Not just the, the tradesman there, if you like, the farmers and the bakers or whatever?
PB: No. The only time we went out, off the camp was to go in to the little pub. On the nights we weren’t flying. We were in there every night we weren’t flying.
BW: Were there station dances at all or anything like that?
PB: No. There was no station. You’d the airfield there, you’ve the mess here and your billet over there and something else over there. If you didn’t have a bicycle you couldn’t exist in Lakenheath.
BW: So quite a distance between -
PB: Distances are immense. And I’ve visited it since the war. It’s an American town now.
BW: Yeah. It’s, it’s a huge place.
PB: Oh it’s a big place and when I, when I was there talking to them they produced some information about the wartime use and they spelt Stirling as if, as if it was the bloody currency [laughs].
BW: Were there, just out of interest, were there other crews in the pub where you went or was it pretty much just you guys?
PB: Well no doubt there were.
BW: Right.
PB: But we just sat in our corner and nothing else existed.
BW: Right.
PB: Nothing else existed.
BW: So tucked away in your own -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In your own little world.
PB: And there my skipper named my first daughter.
BW: Right.
PB: My skipper. I don’t know how we got on, how the conversation got around to that actually but one evening for some reason the skipper said if my wife and I were to ever have a daughter we were going to call her Penelope. I never forgot that and so very many years later when my first daughter was born she simply had to be Penelope. I had no choice.
BW: Well. As you say it obviously comes from being a tight crew.
PB: Yes.
BW: And that connection.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Ok. You mention then about your trip to Mannheim and this New Zealand navigator.
PB: Yeah.
BW: About your, of your crew.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Who, who got you shot down?
PB: Yeah.
BW: Just talk us through that if you would, please.
PB: Well we had a full petrol load which means a minimum bomb load of course. We were briefed for Munich and when briefing had been completed the CO said there’s a Mosquito on its way to Munich at the moment because it’s feared the weather may break down there so we’re going brief you for a possible alternative for Mannheim. So we had a second briefing then. Now, we’d no idea where we were going which meant of course the navigators had two flight plans to prepare. They’d doubled the work in the limited amount of time so they were under stress from the start. So we, we, we retire to our aircraft. Do all our pre-flight checks and the CO comes around in his van and says Munich is scrubbed. You’re going to Mannheim. So off we go. Immediately we cross enemy coast we were hit by flack. Now this had never ever happened to us before. He’d taken us straight over a, straight over a gun batt. I was shocked and I thought I’m going to spend, I’m going to spend the next hour checking the fuel in the hope we were losing fuel and we could turn back. And I went and did a meticulous check on the fuel but we weren’t losing fuel of course. Now, the raid was cleverly designed. You’ve got Ludwigshafen, the Rhine, Mannheim. If you fly over Ludwigshafen into Mannheim a creepback occurs. You get two targets for the price of one. And so that was the way we were to enter. So, to make sure we got it right for each wave of the attack the pathfinders was putting down a red marker. Now if you turn on a red marker on to the right course you flew straight over Ludwigshafen straight to Mannheim. So as we, as we were approaching the point where we could expect to see the flare the navigator says, ‘Keep your eyes open now. You should be seeing a red flare any time now.’ And suddenly there’s a red flare there and another red flare over there.
BW: So one to your left and one to your right.
PB: Yeah. So which, which is, which is the correct one? Only the navigator knows which is the correct one. ‘That one,’ he says.
BW: On the left.
PB: Nearer to the target. We get to the target five minutes early. The skipper makes what I still think was the right decision. He said we’d been hit by a bomb once at Nuremberg so we knew that. You’re either the only one over the target or the bombs are coming down from Lancasters. The skipper did an orbit but unfortunately the radar picked us up and as soon as we start to go in a blue searchlight comes straight on.
BW: Which is the radar guided one.
PB: Yeah and then then the column builds up and we’re flying straight over with the bomb doors open. So we continued like that until the bomb aimer got a sight and then you let the lot go in one go and we didn’t wait for a photograph. And over a target I always went up in to the astrodome facing backwards to help the gunner search for fighters and I was up there [ and we slowly began to pull away? ] and there were only a couple of searchlights on us and I thought I’d better check on my engines cause they’re getting a terrible thrashing. You’re only allowed a few minutes on full power so I get down, I get down from the pyramid and have a very long, I have a very long lead on my intercom so I can, don’t have to keep plugging and unplugging and I get down and I’m just going over to the instrument panel and suddenly there’s a terrible screaming and Len, Len the wireless operator had been just behind the main spar pushing out pushing out the window came running up through the main spar screaming, tripped over the pyramid, fell across my lead, pulled it out so I lost all communication and he fell at my feet and then this huge fire broke out in the fuselage and I’m steeling myself to stand and step over Leonard’s body to get to the fire extinguisher and out of the corner of my eye I see the mid upper gunner get out and put his chute on. I turn around. The navigator’s already on his way down the steps so instead of going for the extinguisher I go for my parachute and follow the navigator. I get to the top of the steps, the hatch is open. The navigator’s gone. I slide down. I get my feet through. The bomb aimer had gone up in to the second pilot’s seat to help the skipper. He started to clamber down from the, from the seat as I go past. I get my legs through. I feel a pressure on my back. I turn. Alan’s got his knees pressing in my back, tap him on the knee and go and as I go I feel the aircraft break in two and Alan never got out. So the rear gunner and Len were killed by the fighter. The skipper was wounded by flak that also set the port inner on fire and the skipper and Alan never had a chance of getting out because the aircraft had broken in two. The tail unit with the rear gunner’s body in it landed a considerable distance away. The main wreck landed right on the German Grand Prix racing track at Hockenheim.
BW: Wow.
PB: I have the map. I have a map showing the exact position and I saw the fire. It was a huge. We’d over a thousand gallons of petrol on board. We had enough petrol for Munich and the three in the aircraft were completely destroyed. Only, only fragments of bone left. The air gunners body was complete and so in the cemetery now at [Bad Tolz?] there’s a, there’s the rear gunners grave there, then there’s a headstone for Len, a headstone for the skipper, a headstone for Alan but what bits of fragments of bone there were are all buried in front of the skipper I’m sure. It was just symbolic. Never, never let the relatives know that of course. Never mention fire to the relatives but those two graves were empty and what bits there were were in front of the skipper which is right and proper.
BW: And you, you must have been pretty close to the ground when you baled out yourself.
PB: No. Oh, no. I was about ten thousand feet.
BW: Oh right. It was, it was the sense I was getting that it was almost a last minute sort of thing where you were able to escape.
PB: No. No, the aircraft broke in two very quickly. It was a tremendous. What happened I think the JU88 killed the rear gunner and then from, there’s a pump on the starboard engine, and dual pipelines to the rear turret that power the turret. Now I think it hit those pipelines. You’ve got hydraulic oil pressure, high pressure, high temperature came out and that’s what caught fire. The fire then came underneath the mid upper gunner, hit Len when he was doing the window in and stopped before it reached me but it was, it was a terror, it certainly was a fire and although I didn’t know till much later virtually simultaneously flak knocked out the port engine and the port inner engine and wounded the skipper and Ray, Ray told me later that when the skipper gave the order to bail out he [signed to say] as if he was badly hurt.
BW: And then at that point, the stricken aircraft, it must be almost I guess vertical if it’s broken up at that point.
PB: It didn’t, it didn’t go like that when it hit the ground it was it just come straight down like that.
BW: Yeah.
PB: I dare say some of it is still there buried under that racetrack. Some of the engine. But later I had a friend in Germany who was, who was in Ludwigshafen. He lived in Ludwigshafen. He was a schoolboy in Ludwigshofen. He may well have been on the flak gun that night for all I know.
BW: That would have been a coincidence wouldn’t it?
PB: Well after, he worked for the postal service after the war and when he retired he set himself up as what he called an air historian and he excavated a lot of shot down bombers and he was very keen on Bomber Command and he provided me with a lot of information and he produced a woman who’d been a schoolgirl in Hockenheim and on the morning after we crashed, after we were shot down, a neighbouring woman knocked on her door and she had what they described as a Canadian airman with them. It was in fact a New Zealander and the girl’s mother gave him a drink of water and later in the day the girl’s interest was aroused and she and a girlfriend went out to look at the crash and she provided me with a map of the actual crash site just by the, so whenever the German Grand Prix comes on I always, always watch it for a few minutes. I don’t like grand prix racing but I always watch it for a few minutes.
BW: Just that particular one.
PB: Yeah. That’s where it crashed.
BW: And have you been back to Hockenheim at all?
PB: No. No, I’ve not. No, I’ve not.
BW: But the information’s come through to you.
PB: Yeah.
BW: As to what’s happened.
PB: Peter provided me with a lot of information.
BW: What’s the air historian’s name? Do you recall?
PB: Peter Mengas M E N Mengas G A S.
BW: G A S.
PB: Peter.
BW: And is he still around?
PB: I don’t know. I’ve not, I’ve not heard from him for a year or two now.
BW: So you’ve managed to get out of the aircraft yourself.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And this is night-time. About ten thousand feet over Germany.
PB: Yeah 1 o’clock. It was just about midnight on my watch. It was 1 o’clock in the morning German time.
BW: And you pulled the rip cord and -
PB: Well, no. This was the problem when I, when I first joined the squadron I got a harness which could be adjusted. Now, I moved about a lot in the Stirling. I’ve controls there, there, there and there.
BW: All around the -
PB: And I used to [bend down?] around number seven tank and the shoulder strap would fall off and I thought I’ll get this fixed but I never did of course so when I baled out I was terrified of falling out of my parachute so I daren’t open it until I got myself you know [? ] as I could.
BW: Sort of braced against the straps were they?
PB: And when I opened it and I felt oh that’s it but it wasn’t that was just the parachute pulling the pack off my chest and then bang.
BW: The snap of the canopy.
PB: And I took all the weight there. The shoulder straps were up here. I came down in agony. I don’t know why it didn’t castrate me.
BW: Because of the tight grip around the -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Groin area where the -
PB: And then when I eventually I saw the ground rushing up and I rolled myself into a ball as I’d been taught and this buckle took two ribs with it.
BW: On the left hip.
PB: Yeah. Broke, broke two, broke two of my ribs and so I, it was, it was very painful. Very painful. And this is funny really by the next day my left side had seized up and I’m walking in a westerly direction trying to get to France [laughs] and, I don’t know and there was just one house which I had to pass and I thought, I thought a girl stood in the window had spotted me. I wasn’t certain but I thought she had. Anyway, I kept going and suddenly I hear a shout and I turn around and there’s this chappy running towards me and running behind him is a woman, presumably his wife and the two things I didn’t believe. I didn’t believe that fighting men put their hands above their heads like the baddies in the cowboy films and I didn’t believe the Germans went around saying. ‘Heil Hitler,’ to each other but as this chappy approached without any conscious effort on my part my hands went up. This one went up. This one wouldn’t.
BW: Your right one.
PB: He saw me like. He stopped running [?]and, ‘Heil Hitler.’
BW: So because you can’t raise your left arm you can only raise your right arm he thinks you’re doing the salute.
PB: He thought I was a Luftwaffe chappy. ‘Heil Hitler,’ he said [laughs] Well, I just I was in a pretty perilous state by this time. I just collapsed in to hysterical laughter. I just stood there and laughed and laughed and laughed and his wife came along and she sized up the situation immediately. She put her arm around me, took my weight on her shoulder and led me towards the town and the very first house we came to she made a very, very cross old woman let me into her kitchen, sit me down and made me a cup of coffee. So this woman very unwillingly gave me a cup of coffee. I hadn’t drunk anything for twenty four hours and I took a sip and I thought, ‘Bloody hell, I can’t drink this. It’s absolutely disgusting,’ and I thought, ‘Well if I don’t drink it it’s a great insult to this woman who’s been so incredibly kind to me,’ so I had to drink it. That was my introduction to the German diet oooph [laughs].
BW: And so you managed from a rough landing in a loose parachute in God knows where -
PB: Yeah.
BW: To get yourself together. You didn’t meet any of the other crew at this point because you obviously talked about -
PB: The -
BW: Yourself.
PB: The mid upper gunner landed right next to a railway signal box and was arrested within seconds. The navigator landed in a tree and had to be rescued. So they were captured very quickly. Both of them.
BW: So there was just you on your own at this point.
PB: I was on my own.
BW: Were you knocked unconscious or, or did it take some time to come around? I mean you’ve obviously had to get rid of your chute and -
PB: No I, I, I was shocked. I was shocked obviously and I was in pain from these ribs but I said I’ve a duty to the RAF and that was to get to Gibraltar. [Laughs] It’s a long way away.
BW: Yeah.
PB: I’d got the Rhine to cross for one thing. That’s not, that’s not easy. [laughs].
BW: And so the, the people that, that met you I mean you talk about heading west towards France and Mannheim is, is quite deep in western Germany.
PB: Yeah.
BW: So you’re actually being met by Germans at this point.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But they assist you.
PB: Yeah.
BW: So what then happened? Did they, they pass you on? Or -
PB: Well this couple took me to the police station where the other two were already held although I didn’t know it and we were kept there for about three days and a couple of Luftwaffe chappies arrived to take us up to Frankfurt to Dulag Luft interrogation camp and when we left we were given a bundle of the rear gunner’s clothing and his flying suit had hundreds of holes in it. The cannon shells must have hit the turret and exploded, it was absolutely riddled and his helmet and his, his oxygen mask was soaked in blood and there were the four guns from the rear turret as well. So we had that to carry. And we had, we had an adventurous journey. We couldn’t, it, this was the most successful raid on Mannheim Ludwigshafen at that time and it was complete chaos and we had to go by train in to a big detour so we travelled that day and went to a Luftwaffe camp and stayed the night in the guard room there and the next day we go back to the railway station and it was a, it’s a station something like Victoria in Manchester. A long corridor with steps going up to the various platforms. We were on the platform and what I call a typical Daily Express German came along, feather in his hat and oh he was furious he was furious and Hitler had issued an order to all military and police units that if civilians get hold of airmen before the authorities do the authorities were not to interfere. They must leave it to the discretion of the civilians what to do with them and this one was stark raving, oh he was angry. And in the air force there’s an offence known as silent contempt. You don’t do anything but you look at an officer who’s ticking you off and look at him and make it obvious you think he’s [lowly?] and it’s a serious crime in the air force. Well Ray and I were giving this chappy the silent cont and the navigator said, ‘Stop being a bloody fool.’ He was a good deal older than we were and eventually this chap storms off and we thought, ‘Oh that’s shown him.’ A few minutes later he’s back at the head, the head of a posse and they’re obviously, obviously intent on doing us serious bodily harm but fortunately there was, there was a train on the other side of the platform. Now, whether it was a troop train or not I don’t know but half a dozen soldiers got out and ranged themselves between us and the, and this crowd and our two Luftwaffe chappies whipped us down the stairs, along the corridor and up another platform and hid us in a room that was obviously used by guards full of red and green lamps and flags and so on and we hid in there until our train arrived and then ran back as fast as we could and got put on the train. But it was, when we thought about it later we were very nearly hanged or beaten to death or kicked to death or something very near but it was only, it was only those soldiers who saved us and that was contrary to Hitler’s orders.
BW: Because the RAF crews at this time presumably were being christened terror flieger.
PB: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BW: And so the civilians were -
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Properly against them.
PB: Well there were a hundred Bomber Command people were killed by Germans and more than two hundred Americans because Americans, there were a lot more Americans. They had ten to a crew.
BW: And at this point in a station as you mention they’ve reunited you with the navigator and -
PB: Yeah. Well they were in the police station. Unknown to me at the time.
BW: Yeah.
PB: I met them when we got out of the police station. But before I left they gave me a shave. A fierce little barber came in and then he got out this razor and I thought, ‘I hope to God the air raid sirens don’t go off.’ [laughs]
BW: Yeah ‘cause he might, he might stop shaving you and decide to use the razor for something else.
[laughs]That’s the only time I’ve been shaved with a cut throat razor. I don’t want to ever experience it again. [laughs]
BW: So they’ve tidied you up and reunited you as a crew.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Presumably they didn’t interrogate you at this point even though you were in a police station. The Luftwaffe officers took you over and put you in a transport. Is that right?
PB: Yeah. We were taken, we were taken to Dulag Luft at Frankfurt and there I was put in a cell there. Quite a big cell really. It had, it had, it had a very long radiator attached to one wall and there was a bed attached to the floor alongside a radiator and there was a table and two chairs and there’s a bucket in the corner and two windows with shutters on from outside and a very dim light. No ventilation and all I could do was lie flat on my back with these ribs and although it was mid-September the heat on the radiator was turned up full. So I lay there for three days getting hotter and dirtier and stickier and the air getting fouler and fouler and then suddenly somebody opened the shutters. A very smart Luftwaffe officer walked in with a couple of files under his arm, put them on the table opened the windows wide and motioned for me to join him, poured two cups of English tea, a plate of English biscuits, a packet of English cigarettes and then the interrogation started.
BW: And at this point is there just you and this Luftwaffe officer?
PB: Yeah.
BW: In this cell?
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so he’s expected you to get up from the floor to the chair to sit in front of him. Nobody has assisted you at this point?
PB: No. No. No.
BW: So presumably your body’s quite stiff as well.
PB: Very very stiff indeed. Very stiff. I never -
BW: Well -
PB: I never had any medical attention at all. Never. I’ve got a great knob of bone there that will never heal.
BW: And so the interrogation begins and presumably, from what you’re staying, this is daytime at this point.
PB: Yeah. When he put these files down on the table there were two of them and the top one said Royal Air Force Bomber Command 149 squadron. I thought, ‘How the hell does he know 149?’ I said, ‘I wonder if the others had been forced to talk,’ and I had pictures of Humphrey Bogart being tortured by [laughs] but it was obvious the rear part of the fuselage wasn’t burned and the letters OJ. So, he gave me, he have me a great deal of information. First, generally about the air force and then specifically about 149 squadron.
BW: And because the letters on the aircraft had not burned through.
PB: No the -
BW: So the squadron’s code OJ were still visible.
PB: OJ means 149. They knew that so as I understood it he was trying to do two things. He was giving me a lot of information most of it factual but some which he picked up and he hadn’t had checked yet [or someone had corrected] and from my reaction [he got?] and then he picked up bits from me that he could put. That was the whole purpose of it. I don’t know what did affect the war effort. I don’t think very much. Anyway, eventually he finished and this was the middle of September and he said, ‘Are there any questions you want to ask me?’ I said, ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘What’s been happening in the war in the last few days?’ He said, ‘Italy has surrendered.’ I said, ‘Oh good. One down, one to go.’ [laughs] Well he didn’t like that [laughs] so he picked up his files and he left.
BW: You weren’t tempted to salute him either.
PB: But when we, when we were being transferred by cattle truck from Dulag Luft to Saxony to Stalag 4b we were in these cattle trucks and we had a German guard in with us and we had with us at one stage the only German I ever felt sorry for. He’d been born in Germany and when he was a very small child his people had gone to America. He’d been brought up in Brooklyn. He had a tremendous Brooklyn accent and he’d, they’d never taken American nationality and early in ‘39 or late in ‘38 they’d come to Germany on holiday and he was immediately conscripted and there he was [laughs]. Oh dear. So I’d never known anybody feel as sorry for himself as that poor fella. He said, he described his comrades, he said, ‘Bloody mother f***ing, c**k s***ng krauts,’ and those were his comrades [laughs].
BW: And they didn’t speak American -
PB: Deary, deary me,
BW: So he got away with it.
PB: Oh he did feel sorry for himself. And I’ve often wondered what happened to him because when the Ardennes offensive took place Hitler put a lot of American speaking Germans into American uniforms and of course they were shot immediately if they were captured. He was an absolutely perfect candidate for that job.
BW: Yeah. Quite possible.
PB: So I don’t know what happened to him but oh deary me he did feel sorry for himself
BW: And so it seems a fairly, alright it’s uncomfortable but it seems a fairly civil interrogation from the Luftwaffe officer before you -
PB: Oh it was very friendly. Very friendly very friendly. I mean I’d been lying in there for three days thinking about Jimmy Cagney and Humphrey Bogart and it was nothing like that [laughs]. No, he was charming. Really charming.
BW: And how soon after the interrogation ended and he stormed out did you then leave for er -
PB: Well I left the cell then went to the main part of the camp and stayed there for about a week until there was enough of us to make up a wagon load.
BW: And this was still at Dulag Luft.
PB: Yeah.
BW: In Frankfurt.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so you’re there a little while longer transferred to Saxony.
PB: Yeah and we were lucky and we were unlucky. We were unlucky in the fact that all the luft camps run by the Luftwaffe were full and so we were sent to the biggest prison camp in Germany which was run by the army. It contained about ten thousand permanently and it had scores of working parties attached to it so that prisoners used to come in and get recorded and then sent out to work in mines or factories or quarries or whatever so there was a regular turnover. There was about ten thousand of us there permanently but a tremendous lot of Frenchmen, a couple of thousand Russians who were starving to death and various other nationalities and of course the German army didn’t have the same relationship with us that the Luftwaffe personnel would have had. In fact they hated us.
BW: Was there any, any ill will directed towards you because you were air force?
PB: They didn’t like us. They told us, they said, ‘When Germany wins the war you’ll spend the rest of your lives building the cities that you’ve destroyed but if Germany lose the war you’re soon to be shot.’ That was their attitude.
BW: And even though this was an army camp they, it sounds as though they weren’t just, were they just military personnel? The ten thousand French and Russians were they soldiers that were captured?
PB: Well I don’t know what they were.
BW: So they could have been.
PB: They were dressed in civilian, some in civilian clothes,
BW: Yeah.
PB: Some in bits of clothes. Some were in military uniform but we were lucky too because this was September. Italy had retired from the war. The Germans had taken over the Italian prison camps and they set up two new compounds in 4b. An RAF compound and an army compound. Now, a couple of thousand Desert Rats who’d been prisoners in Italy came in just as we did. Now, without them we’d have been in a right mess because the Germans gave us nothing.
BW: So you were on low rations and you were, were you made to work at this stage as well?
PB: No. No. They couldn’t make us work. Not with our ranks.
BW: Right.
PB: But you know we were put into a hut which has three tier bunks to sleep a hundred and eighty men. They gave us a sack which contained something or other which was supposed to be a mattress, two pre- First World War blankets and that was, that was all they gave us. No knife, fork, spoon, no cup, no plate. Nothing. And yet the food comes up, a great big vat of soup and all you’ve got’s your bare hands. So the army helped us a lot there.
BW: Presumably because they were allowed or brought with them their kit and they shared it.
PB: They brought with all their kit, yeah. Yeah. I mean they’d been prisoners years some of them.
BW: So they knew, they knew how it worked.
PB: They knew the ropes so yeah they knew the ropes alright but the difference between the army and the air force was, was, was incredible. The army compound was run like a barracks. There was a sergeant major in charge of each hut. Total control. And each morning at 7 o’clock there was roll calls outside in decent weather. The roll call in the army compound took fifteen minutes. The roll call in the RAF compound could take two hours. That was the difference in our attitudes. The army would say, ‘We’ll show them what real soldiers look like.’ and we’d say, ‘We’ll cause them so much bloody trouble they’ll wish they’d never been born.’ Different attitude of mind altogether.
BW: And so this is the, the British army in their compound.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Organising themselves to do their roll calls -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Like that.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the RAF took the view well we’re there to -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Make a nuisance of ourselves.
PB: That’s it exactly. One day the Germans got so exasperated they brought the senior sergeant major and they stood him there and we’re all lined up in fives and he starts telling us we’re a disgrace to the bloody nation, we’re a disgrace to the air force and the replies he got. He’d never been spoken to like that in his life before. Never, ever, ever. He just went redder and redder and redder. Eventually, he turned on his heel and went and we never saw him again.
BW: Gave that one up as well.
PB: I know we really, we really did everything we could and we tamed the Germans eventually and it went whenever a German entered our hut whoever saw him first would shout, ‘Jerry up’ and whatever you were doing you could get away. At the end of the war the German would walk in to the hut, he’d stand at the door and shout, ‘Jerry up’ and wait two minutes before he walked in.
BW: It’s interesting you, you made a comment just before that although the Germans gave you nothing they didn’t make you work either because of your rank.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the thinking was in the, in the early days with the RAF aircrew was that if they were all sergeants they would be treated better in prisoner of war camps.
PB: Not treated better, just treated differently in that they didn’t work.
BW: Right. So it was a case of you’re not made to work you were just -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Well you were just there and you exist, sort of thing.
PB: Yeah and the food of course was disgusting. The flour was ten percent what the Germans optimistically called wood flour. Which was sawdust. We, we, we had soup at lunchtime. A great vat of soup. We had [minute?] soup which was disgusting. We had [mara?] soup which was even more disgusting and most disgusting of all we had a soup that apparently was made from what was left of sugar beet after the beet er after the sugar had been extracted and we got a handful of boiled potatoes, usually rotten. That was the midday meal and then in the late afternoon you got a piece of bread to be divided between five people and a blob of white stuff which was supposed to be butter, it was about ninety percent water, and a spoonful of jam apparently made from beetroot or swede or some such and you’d get this piece of bread and it’s not a big piece of bread and it’s got to be shared between five people and every, every one of the five pieces had to be absolutely identical with the other four so we picked the man with the best irons and steadiest hand and he cuts the bread up and he gets last choice and the five pieces and he gets the last choice.
BW: And it went on like that for days.
PB: But we had the Red Cross parcels fortunately.
BW: How often were they delivered? Were they regular?
PB: Every Monday we got a Red Cross parcel.
BW: And were they delivered intact or were they interfered and inspected by the Germans.
PB: They were delivered intact until it was decided that they were being used in escapes and so after that they were all opened and every tin was punctured so that it had a limited lifespan. You couldn’t, you couldn’t store it up.
BW: And you see in war films, popular war films, the sort of black market operating in a prison camp and trading and bartering. Does that, did that ever happen?
PB: Oh yes, it was all, with cigarettes you could buy anything. Now in the RAF compound we had two people. We had an English and an Italian name. A chappy called [Gargini]
BW: [Gargini]
PB: Now he was, he was a skilled technician in British, in BBC television and he was an absolute wizard with the electricity. He built at least two radio sets and he also made a succession of heaters, immersion heaters, which you could put in a cup of cold water and fire up in no time at all. And we had another chap who was in fact was a civilian. Terry Hunt his name was. He worked for British Movietone news or some similar company and if you went to the cinema in England during the war from time to time to time on the newsreel you’d see shots taken from the nose of a light bomber during attacks on France. Now Terry was one of the men who took those photographs. He was given a degree of training. He was given an RAF uniform, he was given a RAF number, an RAF rank just in case he was shot down and captured and he had a camera. He had it inside a hollowed out bible with a little hole in the spine through which he took his photographs. Two quite remarkable men there.
BW: And that, that bible with the camera in he used in the aircraft and he kept with him in the prison camp did he?
PB: No. He got it whilst he was in the prisoner.
BW: Oh made it in the prison right.
PB: How he got through well cigarettes you could get anything with cigarettes. You could buy a woman for three cigarettes but there were no women.
BW: And in that case there must have been some sort of interaction with the German guards at that point -
PB: Oh yes.
BW: To be able to bribe.
PB: You waited. You waited until after dark and then you went out and found a guard and said [?] ‘Yah yah yah,’ out it came from a bag in his gas mask case gave him this bit of bread ‘[?] cigarettes?’ ‘Nein. [?]Nein. Deutschland caput’ [laughs]
BW: A piece of bread for twenty cigarettes.
PB: But you could buy anything with cigarettes.
BW: And did you partake in that yourself, did you?
PB: Oh yeah I was out most nights if I had cigarettes buying bread. It was, it was much better bread than we had. It was rotten bread but it was much better bread than we had.
BW: And did you, did you feel able to strike up a rapport or even an element of trust with some of these guards. Were you always meeting the same one or did you have to interact with others?
PB: No, whoever happened to be walking around the compound at the time. Some relationships must have been, must have been formed because big items were bought and of course if there were ever workmen in the camp all their tools were raided. They soon [? ] their tools.
BW: So there were, there were guys in the camp who were raiding the Germans’ tool sets.
PB: Yeah you see we, we had, you know, you got hundreds of air crew. You’ve got a couple of thousand senior NCOs in the army. You’ve got every talent. You’ve got architects, musicians, dancers, journalists. You got all sorts of people and it was amazing what could be done.
BW: And I believe they had classes in the prisoner of war camps as well to keep the men occupied.
PB: Oh yes. We, we had a little library in each hut. Some of them manned by professional librarians, we had lecturers. We had, we had a theatre group and a radio theatre group. We had people who went around individually giving lectures. The most popular lecturer was a chappy, an army man, who’d worked for a very prestigious London undertaking firm and the stories he had. Oh deary me. Deary, deary me. He was a popular lecturer he was.
BW: And so was your days, were your days regulated in any sense? Was there a structure put to you?
PB: No. You had a roll call in the morning, a roll call in the evening. That was it. And then you had the food arriving at mid-day and again about tea time and other than that you were on your own.
BW: So would you have about two meals a day then? Your main midday meal and a meal in the evening?
PB: I don’t think we ever had a meal at all really [laughs].
BW: Well, yeah.
PB: But yeah that’s the way it worked.
BW: Yeah.
PB: On Fridays, on Fridays, Friday was a big day. On Friday you got pea soup and pea soup was so good we didn’t get any potatoes on Friday. Well pea soup was the only soup we ever really ate. The pea soup was quite good.
BW: And do you still like it to this day or does that remind you?
PB: I like pea soup. Yes.
BW: Yeah.
PB: But we Lancastrians had a Red Rose Society. The Yorkists had a White Rose Society and there was a motoring club for people interested in cars or motorbikes. There were all sorts, all sorts of things set up. Every hut was given the name of a British football team. My hut was Wolverhampton Wanderers and a league was set up and matches were played and points scored and then in the RAF compound we formed the rugby pitch as well, I played a lot of rugby.
BW: Even, even though you’d had a bad injury from parachuting you were still able to play rugby.
PB: Eventually. It took, it took, it took about six months until I felt really free but -
BW: Did you manage to get any medical treatment from the British -
PB: No.
BW: While you were in the camp?
PB: Never. Never. I never bothered the British. By then it was healing. They even, even tried to play cricket but that didn’t work. The ground was too soft.
BW: What sort of ground was it? Was it sandy?
PB: It was sort of sandy soil, yeah.
BW: So and we’ve probably all have an image here of Sagan and the Great Escape -
PB: Yeah.
BW: And the sandy -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Sort of soil
PB: Yeah.
BW: And it was pretty much like that was it?
PB: When I played rugby every time I I got a graze and there was any blood it always went, always went rotten. I always had to go and get it, get it drugged up always, always went rotten.
BW: And what sort of drugs could they give you? Was there penicillin?
PB: Red Cross. Red Cross I don’t know what they were but the Red Cross provided drugs and we had, we had certain medical. We had a couple of army doctors as well. We had an English woman in the camp.
BW: Do you recall her name at all?
PB: Well we knew her as Mrs Barrington. She was an English woman. I don’t know whether she was divorced or widowed but sometime in the 20s or very early 30s she had a son called Winston and they had a holiday in Switzerland and met a German who got on very well with and they went back again a few months later and she married him and she and her son went to live in Germany. And then when, when 1938, ‘39 came along and war was obviously imminent she sent her son back to England to live with her parents and in due course he joined the air force in Bomber Command, got shot down, wrote to her where she was living in Vienna and she wrote back and eventually she decided she wanted to be nearer to him then that so she left Vienna and went to live in Muhlburg which was about five kilometres from the camp.
BW: Muhlberg.
PB: Muhlberg yeah and by this time her husband was a very high ranking Luftwaffe officer and when she moved to Muhlberg her husband came with her and we know that he visited the camp and we know that he met the commandant but we don’t know what happened there of course. We don’t know whether some informal arrangement was agreed between them or whatever but it was a fact that airmen were never allowed outside the camp because they’d just disappear but Barrington got outside the camp with French working parties several times, met his mother in Muhlberg and by early 1945 she was getting worried about what her fate would be when the Russians arrived and he reported that to the, to the escape committee and they decided she should be brought into the camp and the next time he went out he took some spare clothes [and met her] she came in to the camp, put in to RAF battledress and was hidden away under the stage in the theatre and stayed there for a few weeks till the end of the war. Not only until the end of the war but until we got away from the Russians but it took us a month to get away from the Russians.
BW: So you mention there about hiding her under the stage in the theatre -
PB: Yeah.
BW: In RAF battle dress uniform.
PB: Yeah.
BW: How did the, the tide of war affect you because many prisoners were forced on the long march but presumably if you were in Saxony in sort of lower -
PB: Yeah.
BW: South eastern Germany. Were you part of that of that -
PB: No.
BW: To evacuate the camps.
PB: No we weren’t in Poland. We were in Germany. Now, by this time the air was full of British and American fighter bombers. Everything that moved was attacked and the commandant gave us the opportunity, ‘If you want to be marched west across the Elbe we’ll take you,’ and the Poles of course jumped at that chance. They didn’t want to be with the Russians. And we said, ‘No. We’ll stay where we are until our allies arrive.’ [Laughs] Our allies.
BW: So you all managed to stay in the camp without being evacuated.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so this Mrs Barrington stayed in the -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Theatre at this time.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Under your protection.
PB: Yeah she kept hidden. Eventually, when the, when the Russians arrived they made no arrangements whatever for us and so all we could do was break down this perimeter fence and stream out into the countryside to search for food and that went on for about three days and then the Russians got themselves organised and clamped down on it. We came and got a bargaining counter. They held thousands of British and Americans and there were tens of hundreds of thousands of Russians in the west and the Russians wanted them back. Many, many of them even wore German uniforms and they knew if they went back they knew what their fate would be so they didn’t want to go back so there was a lot of bargaining and we were part of the Russians strong hand and then they marched us out of the camp, marched quite a considerable distance and they put us into what was obviously a big maintenance depot full of huge workshops and we were billeted there and still nothing was happening so we began to drift off in twos and threes and tried to make our way across the river on our own which eventually we did. We, we were relieved by the Russians on St George’s Day, the 23rd of April and I reached the American lines on my 24th birthday. The 23rd of May. Exactly one month later. And then it was like moving from hell in to heaven. I lived for a week on steak and ice cream.
BW: You didn’t, you’d been on such bad rations there was no problem moving to that sort of -
PB: No. No. Never had any -
BW: High protein diet.
PB: A lot of people spent a lot of time sat down with their trousers around their ankles [laughs]
BW: You obviously had a tougher constitution.
PB: Yeah -
BW: So it didn’t affect you.
PB: It didn’t affect me. But oh it was great with the Americans. Even went to the cinema. They had a mobile cinema. I saw a film about a book which I’d read whilst in Germany. And then, then we were flown by Dakota to Brussels and handed over to the British. We arrived in Brussels on a Saturday afternoon. The British gave us a ten shilling note and a handful of Belgian coins and turned us loose on Brussels for a Saturday night [laughs]. And the next day we climbed on board a Stirling and flew back to Kent and from Kent we went up to Cosford which was a receiving centre and Cosford had been my first station in 1940.
BW: So this was almost a reverse of your trip out there because you’d gone out on a Stirling.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And then you were flown back from Brussels to Kent in a Stirling.
PB: In a Stirling.
BW: How did it feel to be back on your old sort of type of plane again?
PB: Oh it was funny really. About, about four Stirlings and one Lancaster landed and everybody but me and two other fellas ran for the one Lancaster. [laughs] I was more than happy to get into a Stirling.
BW: And that, that night in Brussels when you’d got a ten shilling note in your hand.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And a few Belgian pennies that must have been pretty memorable. How did it, how did it feel?
PB: I had a terrible emotional shock. There was a great big underground convenience and I was stood in there weeing away and in walked two women cleaners [laughs] and that rather set me back. I don’t remember much about what happened that night actually. I know I’d no money left at the end of it.
BW: Justifiably lost in celebration I think.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And so you were only twenty four at that stage.
PB: I’d just had my twenty fourth birthday, yes.
BW: And you, I guess you got, in retrospect, you got back to the UK pretty quick. I mean the war had only been over sort of three weeks when you were then passed over to the, to the British.
PB: Yeah.
BW: In May.
PB: Yeah.
BW: ‘Cause obviously some guys in service had to wait a long time to be repatriated.
PB: Oh some didn’t get back until well after the September.
BW: And so when you get back to Cosford.
PB: Yeah.
BW: What happened then? Were you able to, I mean, were you still in touch with your other crewmates at this point in your -
PB: No. No. Long lost them somewhere along the way. We were, first of all we were made to give a written description of how we were shot down which seemed to me to be to be a waste of time and then we were medically examined and bathed and haircuts and kitted out with new uniform and then we were sent on six weeks leave on double rations and by this time of course I’d been, I’d been qualified long enough to have become a warrant officer. And I had a lot of back pay. Got paid all the time.
BW: And how, how did they pay you? ‘Cause now it goes straight into your bank account but then did they give you cash?
PB: Cash.
BW: Or did they give you a cheque?
PB: I can’t remember. I can’t remember. I didn’t have a bank account so I don’t, I don’t really know. I know I had a lot of money to come. Several hundred pounds. I’d earned it. [laughs]
BW: Absolutely.
PB: I’d done more damage to German morale as a prisoner than I ever did as - [laughs]
BW: If I can, if I can just hop back to a point you made in the camp. You said there was an escape committee.
PB: Yes.
BW: And as I say they’re sort of impressions of, of “The Great Escape” come to mind. Were there any escape attempts made there?
PB: Oh yes there were people escaping all the time.
BW: Successfully?
PB: A couple of hours, two days. Maybe a week if you were lucky.
BW: So there was quite an active escape -
PB: Oh yes, yes.
BW: Committee from the RAF there.
PB: Oh yes there was a lot of escaping. What, what, what was a popular thing from time to time a British soldiers would come through the camp to be registered and recorded and photographed etcetera and then sent out on working parties and some airmen got the idea it would be easier to escape from a working party then from the camp and so they exchanged identities and this in the end caused tremendous confusion to the Germans because there was a New Zealand soldier, a Desert Rat who’d been captured and held in prison in Italy and he’d escaped and got in with a with a group of partisans and as he was the only professional as it were amongst the partisans he soon became their leader and he carried out minor acts of sabotage and he became a sort of Robin Hood and rumours were circulated about this new Zealander who was doing this, that and the other and the Germans got to learn of this and eventually they captured him and they decided to send him to Germany for trial but it wasn’t known whether he was to go to Berlin or to Leipzig so as 4b was about halfway between the two he came to 4b and was locked up in the [straflagge] and there he made contact with French working parties. French used to work in there regularly and the French notified the British and it was known that if he went to either Berlin or Leipzig and was put on trial he’d be found guilty and he’d be shot and so they decided that he had to be rescued and a plot was formed and the French removed a window from the room where the showers were in the [straflagge] and put it back in a temporary position and he was briefed that when it was known that he was going to leave he was to insist upon having a shower and he was to go in to the shower room and escape from this window and be smuggled in to the camp and one day quite out of the blue we were all told to get over to the French compound as quickly as we could and to start a riot and we all got there and started fighting and jostling and messing and shouting and all the German cars were rushing to the French compound and this chappie escaped and he was hidden above a ceiling in a hut up in the dark, in the rafters and remained hidden until the end of the war. And the gestapo arrived and they made our lives hell for a week and they tore the camp to pieces and eventually we put about the rumour that he’d now left the camp and was on a train going to Switzerland so they all moved out to Switzerland [laughs] to the railway lines then and we were left in peace but he remained in the camp until the end of the war and eventually got back to New Zealand.
BW: Wow.
PB: Remarkable story.
BW: I mean yeah he was -
PB: I’ve got his name somewhere in a book but I can’t remember it off hand.
BW: It would be interesting to, to find his name and look him up.
PB: Well I can get it for you.
BW: Doesn’t, doesn’t need to be straightaway. We can get that afterwards.
PB: I can get it for you in a flash.
BW: Ok well just pause the recording for a moment.
PB: So we’re just looking at a book here called “Survival In Stalag Luft 4b”
BW: Yeah.
PB: And his name is Tony Hunt.
BW: Terry.
PB: Terry.
BW: Terry Hunt.
[pause]
PB: 136
[pause]
PB: Frederick William Ward he’s called.
BW: Frederick William Ward.
PB: Yeah. Born in February 1912. Captured in North Africa in July ‘42. [pause] That will tell you about him there.
BW: Yeah.
PB: Fred Ward and this is, this is in the book by Tony Vercoe um which I’ll look up.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Um it says that he, he was captured and then interrogated and then will go into more detail about the activities with the French workers as you say. There’s a description there.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And then this lady you mentioned is called Florence Barrington.
PB: That’s right. Mrs Barrington.
BW: With a thirteen year old son, married a German photographer and that also gives us the correct name of, just so that I’ve got it right, Muhlberg M U H L B E R G so that helps identify -
PB: Yeah. Muhlberg.
BW: The camp.
PB: Muhlberg on the Elbe.
BW: Yeah. What I’ll do if you don’t mind I’ll have a look at this separately and sort of off air of the recording.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But that, that’s great that is good information.
PB: Yes. You’ve got the full story there.
BW: So we were talking just briefly before about some of the escape attempts and how you’d helped to rescue this New Zealander from, from being shot.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Were there any other memorable attempts at all?
PB: Yes. Yes, there was one other memorable one. I had a friend, Fred Heathfield, who was a Halifax pilot with 51 squadron. He’d been shot, he’d crashed landed a Halifax on three engines in the pitch dark in Belgium and lived to tell the tale and I think the only thing that kept him alive was that he had his parachute on his chest and that took the main force of the impact. He got two black eyes and a broken nose. He was eventually captured in an hotel in Paris but he was, he was a pilot. I was a flight engineer. There was a Luftwaffe field a few kilometres away from the camp and Fred and I decided that if we could steal a JU88 we could fly at low level to Sweden and we, we started to try to get some information about German aircraft but by this time the Germans had issued a warning to all prison camps saying that because of the seriousness of the war situation there were certain areas of Germany which could not be identified but which were of importance to the, to the safety of the country and anybody caught in such an area without authority would be shot out of hand so we decided not to bother and we gave what information we had to an Australian pilot. What was his name? I’ve got a book by him in there. Anyway, this Australian pilot had a Canadian bomb aimer in his crew and I think he’d been brought up in the French speaking part of Canada because he spoke French like a native and also had quite a good knowledge of German and they decided that they would put this plan into operation but instead of flying to Sweden they would fly east and land behind Russian lines and give themselves over which to me sounded like a suicide note. And they left the camp. They went they went out with a work, we agreed to provide cover for three days so for three days the Germans wouldn’t know they were missing and they went out with a working party and disappeared and it was the night of Dresden. The night they went out was the night of Dresden and they, they, they walked. They were stopped several times and were able to convince whoever stopped them that they were French volunteers who were being moved from one job to another job and were on their way there and they got to this airfield and they lay up in the woods surrounding the airfield to watch what was going on and a JU88 landed and it was refuelled and they thought that’s it. So they find a log of wood and they picked it up and put it on their shoulders and marched to the edge of the airfield, put it down, got inside the JU and, what was his name? Anyway, he sat in the cockpit looking at the instruments and the controls and sorting out what’s what and the ground crew come back and said, ‘What are you doing in here? Foreign workers aren’t allowed in German aircraft. Clear off.’ And they got out, they picked up their log of wood. They walked back to the camp and I remember it plainly I was stood at one end of the hut and the door was at the far end and suddenly, Geoff his name was, Geoff and his bomb aimer Smith come walking down the hut and the Germans never knew they’d been away. Never knew they’d been away. And they’d been sat in a JU88.
BW: And they’d nearly got away with it.
PB: If they’d landed. I mean the Russians didn’t ask questions. If you got out of a German aircraft they shot you.
BW: Yeah.
PB: It was the daftest idea I’ve ever come across in my life but that’s what they’d decided on. Geoff Taylor. He was, he was, he was a journalist in Australia and he wrote a book called “Piece of Cake” which had a forward by Butch Harris of all people. I’ve got a copy in there and that was the most audacious escape but of course like all other escapes it came to nothing in the end.
BW: And were there quite a few others who tried and -
PB: Oh yes. It was sport.
BW: Captured.
PB: It was sport. This notice that the Germans issued said escaping is no longer a sport but that’s what it had been. When you read about people who spend all their time organising an escape they’re just a bloody nuisance to everybody. They ruin life in the camp. Everybody has to give way to them. They’re not going anywhere. They might be out for a week but they’re back.
BW: And in the meantime everybody else is perhaps suffering.
PB: Everybody’s inconvenienced, yeah.
BW: Yeah but they’re getting more inspections presumably.
PB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To have a fella like Bader in your camp must have been hell. Absolute hell.
BW: That’s why they decided to put him in Colditz.
[pause]
BW: And you hadn’t been tempted to try yourself. You were making yourself a nuisance in the camp you made life -
PB: Only this -
BW: Miserable for the Germans.
PB: Mad plan we had to fly to Sweden which we gave up on. It was impossible. But we had an Australian pilot killed in the camp in a flying accident. This Luftwaffe camp was only a few kilometres away and once the airmen there realised that there were now airmen in 4b occasionally they’d come over and give us a bit of a, a bit of a thrill. They did and they’d come across in a JU86 which was an obsolete bomber based on a, on a civil aircraft. It was a bit like a Hudson it was and it were coming over the camp in a shallow dive right along the full length of the French compound which was the biggest and climb away and all the airmen in the compound would be going like this.
BW: Waving.
PB: And the army went mad. The army said, ‘You’re going to kill us all the way you’re going.’ You know, these lads know what they’re doing. Anyway, one came over one day and it wasn’t an 86 it was an 88 a powerful, big, powerful machine and he came perhaps a bit steeper than usual and when he pulled up his tail mushed in and his tail went into a wire fence and it dragged about twenty feet of wire and two or three fence posts with it. The tail plane hit this, hit this Canadian pilot who was walking around the compound. Killed him instantly. One of the posts hit his companion and badly injured him and I was in our own compound and I could see through the French huts and I saw this thing. It was no higher than that. I don’t know why the airstream wasn’t tucked in the ground and eventually it climbed away with all this wire streaming behind him and the Luftwaffe gave a splendid funeral to this Australian and we were told that the pilot had been stripped of his brevvy, stripped of his rank, and posted to the eastern front as a common foot soldier. I think, it think they just told us that to pacify us. I can’t believe for a moment that that’s what happened but that’s the story they gave us but to be killed in a flying accident walking around a prison compound it’s a bit much isn’t it?
BW: Yeah and as you say there’s got to be some for the tail wheel to be that close to the ground that there’s got to be the plane itself has got to be very, very low.
PB: It was no higher -
BW: Ten feet or less
PB: Than that. I don’t know why the airstream wasn’t hitting the ground.
BW: And that you’re indicating’s about two foot -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Three foot.
PB: Yeah I just saw it go I could see it between the huts.
BW: Wow.
PB: And then it just climbed away with all the stuff just trailing behind it. Beautiful piece of flying. Wonderful skilled bit of flying.
BW: Just unfortunate consequence.
PB: Yeah. So we did get excitement from time to time.
BW: How did it feel when the Russians came to liberate? I mean -
PB: Oh -
BW: You must have had a pretty limited amount of information getting through and an impression of what the Russian forces were like. How did it feel when they -
PB: Well -
BW: Came into the camp?
PB: Well the first thing on the newsreels I’d seen pictures of refugees in France and suddenly early in April we got German refugees going past the camp and it was, it was an incredible sightseeing German refugees like that and they were streaming past the camp to get over the Elbe. And then we could -
BW: The Elbe must have been quite close to the camp
PB: Oh it was only about five kilometres and then we heard gunfire and then on St George ’s day early in the morning someone rushed into our hut shouting, ‘The Cossacks are here,’ and we went out and on the main road there were four of the scruffiest most dreadful looking men I’ve ever seen in my life. On horseback. Oh they did, they looked murderous, every one and they were loaded down with sandbags full of food and ammunition and God knows what and they just sat there and later in the day the infantry arrived and they made no provision for us whatsoever. Nothing. So we just broke out of the camp to steal food and steal drink as well and steal women as well no doubt but the Russians clamped on that and then they started to register us and they were going to send us to a Black Sea port, Odessa or some sort of place, and sail us home from there they said. When the Americans are only five miles away. The other side of the river. And they started to register us and they had great big women, great big fat women, tables outside, taking the records, and they got some funny ones. There was a Micky Mouse and James Cagney, Humphrey Bogart and it became chaotic and eventually we just said oh blow this and they packed it in and then they moved us, as I say, out of the camp and up into this maintenance depot.
BW: So they realised you were giving them some spoof names -
PB: Yeah.
BW: And not helping at all
PB: We sat in this maintenance depot about five of us who were all together and suddenly the most horrible screaming and I said the Russians have either got a woman or they’ve got a pig let’s go and to find out which it is. So we followed the noise and we came to a place and there were two Russians. There was one dead pig lying down and there’s another Russian with a pig like a cello with his hand way inside of it and the pig screaming away and we sit and we watch all this and we’re thinking they’ll give us something and we watch and we wait and eventually they killed it and they cut off the ears and gave us the ears. They took two pigs and gave us the bloody ears off one of pig.
BW: And kept the rest for themselves. And in general when they, as you put it, got their act together in terms of organising the camp presumably they re-erected the fence post that had been torn down.
PB: It became a far, far, far worse place than it had ever been.
BW: Yeah.
PB: They turned it into a punishment camp for German civilians. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of Germans died in that camp over the next five years and so the natives at Muelburg are attached to us really. We both suffered in that camp. It was a dreadful place. What it must have been like when it was dreadful when we were there. What it must have been like.
BW: And they weren’t bringing the civilians in while you were there?
PB: No, no.
BW: They presumably -
PB: No. It was after, after they’d repaired it and repaired all the damage we’d done.
BW: Yeah.
PB: And I think it was about five years they had it as a punishment camp. Must have been hell on earth. Hell on earth. Hundreds if not thousands died and this was just because of complaining about some regulation or other that the Russians had imposed. Anything at all, straight in there. Shocking that.
BW: But they didn’t, did they impose a regime on you as RAF crew waiting to be repatriated during that sort of interim period of April, May.
PB: Well it was all chaos. It was all chaos. I had quite an experience on VE day. They had their VE day a day later than ours because apparently they weren’t satisfied with the arrangements that the west had made so they decided to have their own, their own VE day the next day and I was, I was walking in the German town. Why I was alone and not with any of my friends I don’t know but I was alone and I was walking through this town and suddenly two Russian officers grabbed me and took me to their mess and gave me a huge meal. All, all looted German property of course. Animals, vegetables. The lot. And a particular sweet which I learned later was made from sour milk and it was absolutely gorgeous and after the meal they took me to a public hall where there was to be an address by a general followed by a concert and it was full of full of Russian soldiers, men and women, in all sorts of different uniforms and this general came onto the stage and I got, I got an example of what it was it was like being in a totalitarian state. He made a speech and the only words I heard were Churchill and Roosevelt every now and again he’d pause and somewhere at the very back of the, of the gallery [clapping sound] and immediately everybody’s clapping and immediately they all stopped like that.
BW: As if somebody was coordinating it.
PB: Someone’s coordinating. The whole thing was coordinated and eventually the speech finishes and we had this concert and it was absolutely fantastic. Oh the music and the dancing and the singing unbelievable. Unbelievable concert. It was terrific. Now what happened when it finished I’ve no idea. I haven’t a clue what happened to me that night. Not a clue. Not the slightest idea. I know I joined up with my friends the next day but what happened that night I don’t, I’ve no idea but I’ve never seen anything like the performance that these women who seemed to just move like that.
BW: Gracefully across -
PB: No, no leg movement at all.
BW: The stage yeah.
PB: And the Cossacks down on their heels kicking. Oh it was a fantastic concert and the singing and the balalaika playing. A night to remember that was. And that was VE day. VE day Russian version.
BW: How had you managed to celebrate it in the camp at all? You mentioned it was quite different to our celebration were there any –
PB: Well we didn’t know. We didn’t know it was VE day.
BW: So the only indication you got was from the Russians when they -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Held their celebrations.
PB: And as I say by this time we weren’t in the camp and in fact we’d broken and were trying to get across to the Americans on our own.
BW: And you mention you were in the town at this stage in Muhlberg.
PB: Ahum.
BW: What, what was it like what was your sense of being in the town? Were there, firstly, was it damaged but also were there German civilians who might be hostile.
PB: No.
BW: To the RAF at all.
PB: The civilians couldn’t get us in to their houses fast enough. We were never we were never short of somewhere to sleep or somewhere to wash.
BW: Right.
PB: Because I think the theory was if ten drunken Russians hammered on the door at midnight looking for women we would go to the door and say it was under British occupation you’ll have to go next door. It never worked out in practice [thank God] but that was the theory I think. They couldn’t get us into their houses fast enough.
BW: So a bit I suppose a bit of a protection there for them if the -
PB: Yeah.
BW: If the Russians had seen western RAF aircrew in a house -
PB: Yeah.
BW: They would be less likely -
PB: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: To interfere with it.
PB: And we slept we slept on a feather bed with a feather bed on top of us with a great big bed oh it was wonderful.
BW: And the Germans managed to put you up in the sense that they would feed you as well.
PB: Yes. Yes,
BW: Even though they would have probably been rationed at this stage and -
PB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they couldn’t do enough for us.
BW: And did you get to go back to Muhlberg in the intervening years?
PB: No, because I don’t know where we were. I don’t know where the Russians had moved us to.
BW: Right.
PB: The, the Stalag 4b Association organised trips to Muhlberg later and they became very popular because the Muhlberg people themselves were in the same boat but I never went. In fact they had a trip this year starting off in Berlin and moving down to Muhlberg.
BW: And when you came back to the UK we picked up the story at Cosford and we picked up the extra pay that you’d been awarded.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you were washed and brushed up. What then happened to you sort of post war from Cosford?
PB: Well I was given three options. I could come out immediately or I could go to oh what’s the Yorkshire town, the spa town?
BW: Harrogate.
PB: Harrogate. On a rehabilitation course and then come out or I could opt to stay in until my normal release date. Well I thought there was still a chance of getting back on flying and getting out east and bombing Japan so I opted to stay in and I got posted to a, to a Mosquito squadron near, near Newcastle and there, there I became in effect the squadron warrant officer. I sat in an office all day doing nothing but we had a very, very good rugby team. Our sports, our sports officer was a first class scrub half and we had a very good rugby team and we won the group cup without any difficulty and we got drawn in for the semi-final of the national cup and we got drawn away against Ringway and we came down to Ringway and we found that although paratroopers are army the people who trained them were airmen and practically every one of them was a rugby league professional. So, we turned out on a rugby pitch at Ringway about six hundred red cap paratroopers lying around the pitch cheering their side on. We were up against these great hulking fellas who were fit like butchers dogs. Oh they murdered us. Absolutely murdered us.
BW: And do you still retain an interest in rugby league despite that? Do you follow -
PB: Not rugby league. I don’t like rugby league but we were, they were playing rugby union but they were rugby league professionals.
BW: Right.
PB: But when we got back, when we got back to Acklington I thought that’s it. There’s nothing, nothing doing for me now so I asked to be released and I was released within days.
BW: And was that in 1945?
PB: That would, no, it would be 1946.
BW: ’46.
PB: Yeah.
BW: From Acklington and from then on what happened in your civilian life?
PB: Well, I couldn’t settle.
BW: Your post war life.
PB: I couldn’t settle. I got I got a job as a clerk with a, with a big chemical manufacturing company and I was in this office with about six other people who were as dull as ditchwater, been there forever and all I was doing was calculating lorry loads [eight car loads used to go there and six car loads to go there?] making up that and oh it was absolutely soul destroying. I stuck it I think for three months and then I thought I can’t, I can’t, I can’t settle to this so I then decided I thought the only way to get some companionship again, get some comradeship again was if I joined the police force so I went to, I went to the police station in Burnley and they said, ‘We’ve no, we’ve no vacancies but we can put you in touch with our central organisation.’ So they did and I was called for interview at Wallasey and got into the Wallasey force with three other people and when we went to the police training school we found that three people on the course were Burnley recruits. Burnley. But this gave me my first insight into the police they were recruiting people but they wouldn’t recruit Burnley people. They wouldn’t have anybody who lived in the town going into the police force. So that was the first lie from the police. I worked hard. I came out top of the class and we got to Wallasey and for the first fortnight I was sent out on patrol with another policeman who’d been on patrol for years and I learned how to, I learned which cafes you could sit in the back rooms of and drink coffee and I learned all sort of tricks that really you shouldn’t be doing and it was a complete and utter waste of time and in a small force like Wallasey the opportunity for promotion were very, very few and far between. You had people who had been pounding the beat for fifteen years. They’d passed their sergeants examinations, they passed their inspectors examinations and they were still pounding the beat and the only way you could get on was to curry favour. Start oozing up to some officers and telling tales. It was the exact opposite of comradeship. Everybody’s telling tales about everybody. I thought I can’t stick this so I resigned from that and I was playing rugby in Burnley then and one of the team was a cotton mill owner and he said, ‘If you ever want a proper job I’ll give you a job in a cotton mill,’ so I went to work in his cotton mill and that was no good. And all the time I’m in touch with my bomb aimer’s father. Had regular correspondence and I said to him, ‘I can’t settle I’m going to go back into the air force.’ And he said, ‘Well don’t do anything for the next fortnight,’ and I received a letter -
[interview transmission interrupted]
BW: Alright, so we’re only, we’re only a couple of minutes from the end and I was just asking Mr Phillip Bates that after the end of the war in conclusion he’d said that he’d had a good war but it had had its moments um that were not entirely enjoyable but that overall he’d enjoyed it, his service in the RAF but I was asking just about the commemorations and the national, now centre, at Lincoln and you mentioned that you’d been down to London for the unveiling of the memorial there.
PB: Yeah.
BW: At Green Park.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And you got to meet Camilla as well did you say?
PB: Yes Camilla and the Prince of Wales. I got to shake both their hands. The Prince of Wales surprised me really. It was probably, it was probably the hottest day of the year and everybody had taken his blazer off and I was wearing my Raf Ex-Pow Association tie and the Prince of Wales came along and immediately recognised my tie which surprised me. And as he shook my hand he said, ‘Where did they keep you?’ I said, ‘Stalag 4b, sir.’ He said, ‘Were you a digger?’ I said, ‘Oh no I wasn’t a digger, sir. No. I left that to other people,’ and he was quite jovial and then of course he moved on and made his way down the line but I was amazed that he recognised my tie instantly.
BW: That’s a very nice point that, you know, he’s identified you by that.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And spoke to you particularly because of it.
PB: And part of the Royal Air Force. I’ve got photographs of it all.
BW: And how about now that there’s a centre for Bomber Command in Lincoln?
PB: Well yes he’s lost his football again. I was due to go there and a friend of mine, Dominic was taking me but when it came to it I wasn’t fit to go. I couldn’t have sat in a car for three hours. I just couldn’t. And then another three hours coming back. And Dominic also had a cold so we were ashamed to admit it and then again it’s Lincoln. It’s Lancasters. Bugger the Lancasters I say.
BW: Well perhaps it didn’t prove as reliable as the Stirling because it didn’t fly. They were trying to get the Lancaster flying for the Friday unveiling but they didn’t and I think it may have flown -
PB: Yeah.
BW: The day after but -
PB: What annoys me they chopped up every Stirling. Now, you think they could, it was the first four engine aircraft we had. You’d think they could have had two or three for museums wouldn’t you?
BW: Ahum.
PB: But no they chopped up the lot and that really does grieve me.
BW: And even now they’ve got a Halifax in Elvington.
PB: Oh I’ve seen that.
BW: Which is nicely renovated and so on.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Doesn’t fly.
PB: And it’s got, it’s got the Stirling’s engines in it as well. It hasn’t got Rolls Royce in it it’s got Hercules. It’s a mark iii. It’s that one. The mark iii.
BW: That’s the picture on the wall yeah. And there is a Halifax that they dug out or pulled out of a Norwegian fjord in 1973.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And that is in the Royal Air Force Museum in London.
PB: Yeah. Well for years we hoped that they’d would find a Stirling somewhere but er somewhere in Holland but they never did.
BW: Ahum ahum.
PB: A great shame because it was a beautiful aeroplane.
BW: Could take, from what you were saying, could take a fair bit of punishment and keep flying.
PB: Yeah it was a lot bigger than a Lancaster of course but it had some disadvantages you see. It couldn’t fly high and it couldn’t carry big bombs. It didn’t have a bomb bay. It had three separate ones which gave immense strength to the fuselage because you had these girders running the full length but you could only get a two thousand pound bomb in it so we mostly carried incendiaries.
BW: So just thinking in brief terms about the structure of a bomber formation in that case because you’d see that the pathfinders were going first to mark the target.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Presumably the Stirlings would then go in with the incendiaries.
PB: No. No, we were our main raid was either five or sometimes six waves.
BW: Right.
PB: And the Stirlings were always in the third wave. We got some protection from the first two waves going out and some protection from the last two waves coming back because we were a bit slower than they were. So we were always in the third wave.
BW: Right.
PB: Except, except Peenemunde. Now, that, that’s a terrible story. The night before Peenemunde we went to, we went to Turin and somewhere our radio packed in and we didn’t get the message telling us that East Anglia was fogged up and we had to land in Kent or Sussex. Wherever we could. We didn’t get that message so we arrived back at Lakenheath and asked for instructions to land and they said. ‘You can’t land here. It’s totally fogbound but if you get over to Oakington you might just get down.’ Well, we got over to Oakington, the other side of Cambridge and we just landed. They closed the, closed the airfield immediately we landed and they debriefed us and fed us and provided us with beds and in the early afternoon we went down to the airfield and the Lancasters of seven group were being bombed up and we knew we were on again that night and we were going on leave the so next day so we weren’t anxious to go bombing that night. Anyway, we’d no choice we started the port outer. Come to the port inner, nothing. The starter motor was dead. The starter motors they had in Oakington would fit a Lancaster, it wouldn’t have fit us so we rang Lakenheath to tell them. Eventually a lorry arrives with some fitters and a new starter motor and we landed at Lakenheath just as the squadron is taxiing out for take-off and we were very, very happy because we were going on leave the next day and then I discover we’d missed bloody Peenemunde and at Peenemunde the Stirlings went in first at five thousand feet in brilliant moonlight and all the fighters were circling in Berlin because Mosquitos were dropping target indicators on Berlin. The Germans got away scot free. Eventually the Germans twigged what was happening and got the fighters over and shoot down forty Lancasters and Halifaxes. Stirlings, scot free.
BW: And because you, they’d have been in the first wave.
PB: Yeah.
BW: They got away with it.
PB: There were three, there were three targets. The first one was at the very southern end was all the housing and the Stirlings destroyed that and then the next waves destroyed the science laboratories and then the assembly works and we missed it and it’s grieved me the rest of my life. I’d have given anything to have been on that raid and we were so happy that we weren’t. Oh, a friend of mine got shot down that night. No. I’d have loved to have been on Peenemunde.
BW: I mean that was, that was announced at fairly short notice. It was, you know sometimes a raid has to be planned quite well in advance.
PB: Yeah.
BW: But this was because of the intelligence about the weapons.
PB: Yeah.
BW: They were developing their short notice.
PB: The crews weren’t told, they were told that they were attacking an experimental place for new radar [and the better job of the radar they’d better defend themselves because they destroy all the latest airborne radar] that was the story that was given to aircrews.
BW: Interesting.
PB: Oh I’d have given anything to have been on that raid. Anything. Five thousand feet, brilliant moonlight and you were the first in.
BW: As you say it’s how fate goes isn’t it?
PB: Yeah.
BW: But -
PB: I’ve just been to the funeral of a friend of mine. George. He trained in Canada as a navigator. As a Mosquito navigator which is a specialised navigation job. He qualifies, he gets his brevvy, he’s ready to join the squadron and the war stops. They never even, he never even saw a Mosquito. Oh what a terrible thing to have happen to you. Terrible.
BW: Gone through all that. Well, I was reading in the prep really that they launched a raid on Peenemunde.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And just looking here at some of this um yeah it says here that 149 squadron took part in the early offensive against Germany.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And took part in the first thousand bomber raids with Stirlings.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Made a significant contribution to the battle of the Ruhr, Battle of Hamburg and the raid against the V weapons experimental station at Peenemunde.
PB: Yeah.
BW: And then between February and July ‘44 and in addition to dropping high explosives on the enemy the squadron helped supply the French maquis with supplies, arms and ammunition by parachute.
PB: Yeah.
BW: Of course that would be after you’d been shot down.
PB: About eight weeks after we were shot down Stirlings were taken off German targets completely. Some of them converted to Lancasters. Those that kept their Stirlings were used to drop supplies in France and to do mine laying and later to tow, to tow gliders but they never went to Germany again. The loss rate was unsustainable. I’d been on raids where we lost one in every five Stirlings. You can’t, you can’t keep that up for very long.
BW: No. No. Not at all. Do you think there was a particular weakness perhaps in the Stirling that the losses were so high or was it just good -
PB: You couldn’t get any altitude.
BW: Just because they were restricted to -
PB: Yeah, yeah.
BW: Low ceiling.
PB: Altitude. I mean, I had friends who flew at twenty two thousand feet. On a good night we would get thirteen. On a poor night we would get eleven. Everything that was thrown up reached the Stirlings and everything that was coming down reached the Stirling as well [laughs].
BW: I think you mentioned at one point a bomb hit your aircraft. A bomb -
PB: Yeah.
BW: Dropped from the aircraft above.
PB: This was the Nuremberg. I think it must have been a thirty pound incendiary because it went straight through. If it had been a four pound I think it would have stayed in the wing and burned. If it had been [eighty] it would have taken the wing off. Left quite a sizable hole.
BW: I would just like to show you this. There’s a photo here of a Stirling crew of 149 squadron based at Lakenheath.
PB: Oh.
BW: And I just wonder whether you might recognise any of the names. It’s only a longshot.
PB: Oh.
BW: But there’s -
PB: As I say we never bothered with other crews really.
BW: No.
PB: Except the ones we trained with at -
BW: But it looks like it’s outside the mess at Lakenheath that picture.
PB: Yeah I don’t recognise the photograph. Crowe, that’s a familiar name, Crowe. Oh he was a POW that’s why I know him. Was he a flight engineer? I knew a Tweedy in prison but he was a soldier. I don’t recognise the faces at all. Don’t know why their wearing uniform instead of battledress but there we are. Battledress were far more comfortable. That’s interesting. 27th of September. Oh well they would have been newcomers on the squadron when we were there. The average life expectancy was only six weeks. I had two friends, both on Halifaxes -
BW: Thank you.
PB: Both shot down on their first trip and my friend who were in training, a flight engineer on 15 squadron did four operations and got shot down twice.
BW: Right. I think that sort of brings us to the end as I say unless there is anything else you want to say.
PB: Well I hope I haven’t bored you.
BW: Not at all sir. No not at all there’s plenty of information. Some really interesting and diverse experiences. It’s been very kind of you to share those with me.
PB: It’s a pleasure.
BW: So thank you very much -
PB: A pleasure.
BW: For your time um what I’ll do is I’ll come to the signing of the release form now and a couple of photos so I’ll end the recording there and we’ll sort out the paperwork.
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ABatesP151009
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Interview with Philip Bates
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:13:03 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter
Creator
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Brian Wright
Date
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2015-10-09
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Bates grew up in Lancashire and joined the Royal Air Force in 1940. He served as ground crew with Coastal Command before remustering as aircrew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 149 Squadron until his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Poland
England--Lancashire
England--Suffolk
Poland--Tychowo
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
149 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
displaced person
Dulag Luft
entertainment
fear
final resting place
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
incendiary device
Ju 88
Lysander
Manchester
Me 110
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Nissen hut
prisoner of war
RAF Lakenheath
RAF St Athan
RAF Waterbeach
Resistance
Scarecrow
searchlight
shot down
Stirling
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/213/3352/PBlakemoreL1601.2.jpg
7c211cdc21728fdba7812f81da64db63
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/213/3352/ABlakemoreL160504.2.mp3
c5850e8ff7b2becd678d0e62df653017
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JF: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m John Fisher and I’m interviewing Mr Les Blackmore, who’s ninety two. We’re at Mr Blakemore’s home in Wolverhampton and the 4th of May 2016 and with us is his wife Gwen. They’ve been married for seventy one years. Les, thank you for seeing me today. Tell me a bit about your early years. For instance, when you were born and then I’d like to go into perhaps at the age of fourteen, when the war started and how you felt about all that.
LB: Well, I was born in West Street, Willenhall. My father was a baker and he’d served in the ‘14-‘18 war. My mother Rachel had two sisters, Dorothy five years younger and Kathleen ten years younger. And we moved from West Street when I was four into Gough Street, also in Willenhall and Gough Street was my home until I went into the air force. I went to school in Willenhall, the Central School, and at fourteen I left and looked for a job. I wanted to be a draughtsman and I actually went to Yale works first and then to Josiah Parkes for an interview. Yale had offered me eleven shillings a week but Parkes offered eleven and sixpence a week. And so Josiah Parkes had me and on joining the company the first person that I recognised was my future wife, who I had seen earlier aged about eleven or twelve. She was going down to her school at Albion Road and I was going to my school with my gang of friends at the Central School but it was rather strange that we should meet again so quickly when I went to start work.
JF: So, how did you come to join the RAF?
LB: Well, when I joined Parkes that would be 1938. War started in ‘39 and I was naturally interested in the war itself and conscious of the fact that if it went on for any length of time, for instance, the four years of the first world war, I would be going to be involved in it, and consciously took interest in the three forces: the army, the navy, and the air force and in my mind made up my mind to say I would look forward to going into the air force and if possible, have flying duties and this I did actually. In 1942 when I became eighteen I went to Birmingham and was accepted as a possible entrant but asked to go home and they would call me as and when they needed me and I actually got calling up papers May 1943.
JF: So, you were probably one of the first in the squadron, 514 Squadron?
LB: No, no. 514 Squadron had been in existence long before I volunteered for the air force and it wasn’t - I’ve got a record of 514 history and it shows where they started and they moved to Waterbeach at a later date. But I was an entrant in May 1943 but I didn’t get to Waterbeach until the end of January 1945. The period in between was my training at various stations then joining up, made up as a crew and with the crew moved from a five-engined Wellington, via a Stirling and then into Lancasters but all of that is in my log and you’ll be able to see and record those dates from that log.
JF: Tell us about the first op’ you went on.
LB: My first op’ I think was Wessel. Can we just check ‒
JF: We’re just pausing for a minute to check on the records.
LB: I can’t see, so I’m going to have to ‒
JF: Interview resuming with Les Blakemore. Les, tell us a bit about those early ops. Were you a bit nervous? How did you feel?
LB: Nervous, no? Apprehensive. First of all that I’d be capable of doing the job I’d been trained to do under different conditions. I didn’t want to let the crew down and I think that’s what really bound us together because we all had the same intensity of being part of a crew. And we were a mixed bunch: the skipper, G W Gibson, was from Belfast. The navigator, Les More, he was a serving RAF man when the war broke out, in accounts, and was a warrant officer at the time he volunteered for air crew duties and was sent to South Africa to train as a navigator. The bomb aimer, Craig Tailor, David Craig Tailor, was a Scot by birth but was in Manchester Police Force when he was called up. The rear gunner was a Welshman, the mid upper was a Geordie (Blondie) and I was a mid-lander as the wireless operator. So none of us was with anyone born and living near us. So we seemed to gel together because of our difference of source.
JF: We’re just pausing a minute. We’re now resuming the recording with Les, who I think is going to tell us about nick-names.
LB: The navigator, as I say, was Les More and I was Les Blakemore. So I think it was the skipper who called Les More, Dinty. Now I never know of the origin of the name Dinty but Dinty Les became. I then became Red because I had got ginger hair. The mid upper, Jimmy, was called Blondie because he was a very, very, blonde Geordie. Naturally, the Welshman automatically became Taffy. Now the engineer was Johnny Lasalle[?] and he was Johnny, no more than Johnny. The only exception was Dave Taylor[?], the bomber aimer and he, although he was called Dave generally by each of us in the crew, to me I liked the name, his middle name of Craig and was tempted to call him Craig but let’s say Dave he became and the skipper was Skipper George.
JF: We are just going to pause a second. We are resuming the interview with Les Blakemore. When you went up in an op’ how did you feel? Because you were up in the air for some time.
LB: Well, yes the ops were between five and six hours duration normally. It was a long time but I don’t think at any time we were scared at what we were doing because we’d been together for a little while and we’d got faith in each other and I think the attitude that we adopted was once we were in that aircraft we’d bonded and things were going to be OK. And I think it was that feeling that gave us the fortitude to meet each raid when it was announced without any particular worry. The targets, when they were announced, were unknown to us so each was just another target. Most of them were to Germany, most of them were in the industrial Ruhr, and apart from one or two odd ones such as I think my last one, was Heligoland they took the same form, all daylight, and apart from a couple of incidents when we had damage to the aircraft from something hitting the aircraft, which we found out later was a bomb, tore the front leading edge of the starboard tail plate and left the bent wire spinner of the bomb in the tail plate itself, which the ground crew fetched out and exhibited around the rest of the squadron. But I don’t think fright was part of our life. Apprehension, yes, but you got on with your job and because of that you knew everybody else was also doing his best and that was it. We were a crew. I can’t say more than that really. Had I got any feelings about the fact that I was part of a crew dropping bombs and that the resulting bombs would be killing non-combatants in the form of German or other nationalities of people that I knew nothing about? The answer was ‘I’m sorry but we’d already, as a country, been subject to that treatment by the Germans and therefore it was our job to eliminate that force as quickly as we could.’
JF: We are just going to pause a minute. We are resuming the recording with Mr Leslie ‒. Les [emphasis], I’m sorry, we’re not allowed to call him Leslie. Les Blakemore. Les, how did you feel when these bombing operations ended?
LB: Well, I suppose the first thing was relief that we’re still together as a crew. Pleasure that the war in our respect was successful although we realised that the period that we’d lived through that resulted once again in mountains of damage and terrible, terrible fatalities to most of the people round the world. So I suppose, with relief was also a sense of the price that had been paid for the conflict on both sides and therefore, I suppose, you didn’t accept your side purely as one of, not pleasure, but a sense of we were right because in your mind you were of conscious of the fact that they [emphasis] had also thought they were right and it was rather, I suppose, with mixed feelings, that the end of the war came to us. After the end of the ‒, what I call the European conflict, we were still looking to go to the Far East because the Japanese conflict was still on and we thought we were to go out there as a crew, maybe to India to take part in that, but that didn’t happen because of the Nagasaki and the other atom bomb drops but again those when they happened, a feeling of relief that that battle was over but again the feeling that the cost had been too much in the way of life that had been lost on again both sides of the conflict and that’s really the mixed feeling we were conscious of. Relief, yes.
JF: Now, before VE Day you started helping out with supplies to the starving Danish people, I think, wasn’t it?
LB: No, no, it was the Dutch. There were operations to The Hague where we had practiced low level flying and we were then asked to drop food at various locations and it was terrible to see the people rushing on to the dropping zone while we were still dropping it. They were so exhausted and robbed of life themselves and food was number one thing. They, they’d been starved and it was something we enjoyed doing because we knew it was an immediate help and it was the same with going into France. A couple of times Juvincourt to pick up twenty British men, who in some instances had been prisoners of war of the Germans and been made to make forced marches at the latter part of the war and were exhausted and again many of them in need of medical treatment but there was a coincidence. Our first visit to Juvincourt in France: The aircraft were going all round the peri’ track to where the ground crew had got these prisoners of war in groups and our aircraft stopped and I went to the rear door of the aircraft and opened it and a corporal stood looking up at me and the coincidence was, his name was George Beardsmore. He’d been at school with me and his father still worked for my father at the Vinculum in my home town. So that was absolutely amazing. Anyway, that was OK for us. We took off and landed. I think we had to go to Tangmere. It’s in my log. We can check that. And then fly back to Waterbeach and we did those trips to the, er, Brussels, or an airfield near Brussels, again a number of times to bring our lads back home and it was great to be doing something of that nature because, I won’t say it compensated, but it balanced the raids that we’d been on whilst the war was on.
JF: Les, after the war, what did you do then? Did you return to your job as a draughtsman?
LB: No, no. I’d left the drawing office to go to a production control post and whist I was on leave I’d had occasion to meet the directors of the company who enquired if I was of a mind to go back to the company after [emphasis] the war. I said I was. So they said “Well there will be a job here for you” and I was able to go back to Parkes because they helped my quick release from the air force by asking for locksmiths and I was given the quick release to be a locksmith but in point of fact, when I got to home, back to home, I was offered the job of a purchasing officer which had been a job that had been done by various people during the war, of whom the last two had been representatives of the company, sales representatives, and they wanted to go back to doing that particular job rather than the purchasing. And again my wife was also in the purchasing department which was something that we were both very happy to enjoy.
JF: How long did you stay at that job?
LB: I stayed in the job as purchasing officer until retirement in 1989, having completed, including war time, fifty one years. But by then so many things had happened. The company had increased ten-fold and we were now a number of manufacturing units in Willenhall, in Wolverhampton, Stirchley Birmingham. We’d got companies in South Africa, New Zealand and liaison for the materials and the components for manufacturing in Willenhall and other companies in this country all came under my supervision and it was therefore very interesting as a job because I was looking at the manufacturing of raw materials and components in other people’s factories that I was going to need to purchase. And it educated me to many aspects of life that otherwise I would not have had.
JF: Thank you very much Les. Just one little thing, do you keep in touch with any of your former comrades in the RAF?
LB: Unfortunately they are now all dead. The bomb aimer stayed on after the war with a permanent commission but died in Changi in the Far East with an illness. George, the skipper, went back to his family business bakery. They were bakers in Belfast. And there is another coincidental thing. ‘Cause as a purchasing officer I was a member of the Purchasing Officers Association and we used to visit other factories as a group of people in the Purchasing Officers Association and I had occasion to go with about twenty other buyers to Leicester to a typewriter company and when the visit was over we were all given refreshments and one of the other purchasing officers was a man from Northern Ireland and said he’d got a coincidental story. He’d been on holiday and met up with another family and their children enjoyed the holiday because of meeting people from the same area. When they got home, he was the buyer for a bus service in Northern Ireland and had occasion to get some more service from his suppliers so he rang up this one company, Gibsons’, and who should walk in but the man he’d spent some time on holiday with. And having finished his story I said well the other coincidence is that that man’s name was George Gibson and his son was Gary. I said and he was my skipper in the air force. And that was a double coincidence.
JF: That’s amazing.
LB: Yes, it was incredible.
JF: With that thank you very much Les for your time.
Dublin Core
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ABlakemoreL160504
Title
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Interview with Leslie Blakemore
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:33:09 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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John Fisher
Date
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2016-05-04
Description
An account of the resource
Leslie Blakemore was born in Willenhall, near Wolverhampton and he joined the Royal Air Force in 1943. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 514 Squadron from RAF Waterbeach.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
514 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Waterbeach
Stirling
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/96/3368/ACatlingG151121.2.mp3
972a4a544e0f1ef8c50f71fc347f68c4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Catling, Gordon
Gordon Catling
B G Catling
G Catling
B Catling
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Sergeant B Gordon Catling (3005381 Royal Air Force), a poem and a list of 29 operations he completed as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe during 1944 and 1945.
The collection was been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Gordon Catling and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-11-21
2015-12-28
Identifier
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Catling, G
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre my name is Sue Johnstone and the interviewee is Gordon Catling, the interview is taking place at Gordon’s home in Ipswich Suffolk on 21st November 2015. So we are recording now so it’s er just start from the beginning.
GC: Well as I said I was born in Suffolk born in Ipswich and er went to school in Ipswich and when the war broke out I was only er just turned fourteen and er I went to help in my friend’s father’s shop butchers shop I got fed up with that and I put my age up a year when I was fifteen to get a driving licence to drive a motorbike at sixteen the reason was so that I could join the fire service as a despatch rider they didn’t let me join straight away they let me go as a part time messenger boy and then I did finally get in there at the age sixteen at er that was when I was really sixteen I did manage to get in the fire service and I was a despatch rider there until 1943 when I joined the Royal Air Force, I went to ACRC at London from there we went to Bridlington for the ITW then we went on to Bridgnorth for the EATS and from Bridgnorth to Walney Island for the ATS Air Gunner School, I passed out there in er May forty four no forty three, er sorry.
SJ: That’s ok just take your time no rush.
GC: Passed out there in May forty four yes and I went on then to 14 OTU at Market Harborough where I was crewed up with four Canadians and my mid upper gunner who we’d done our training with which give us six of us in the crew for Wellington, we lost our Canadian bomb aimer and then we finally got a British bomb aimer and then from there we finished our training and we went to RAF Scampton er no sorry RAF Swinderby to do our heavy conversion on Stirlings and we met our engineer we finished out we went to Five Lane Finishing School at Syston and then in the October we got posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe which is just outside of Lincoln, um we went on operations after about being there for a couple of weeks they sent us on our first operation um all I can say about it is we were looking forward to it but we were scared.
SJ: Yes
GC: And er one or two things did happen to us when we were doing a tour the first bad thing that happened to us was when we were going to Munich and the route to Munich used to be through Southern France then over the Alps then towards Munich we were flying in F for Freddy and in the middle of the going over the Alps the aircraft lost power and we stalled and of course instead of flying over we flew through them we didn’t carry on the skipper returned to base and we landed at Bardney still with a four thousand pounder on board, the next thing that happened to us was at we were bombing Politz I think Politz [unclear] and as we were leaving the target coming out there was a terrific bang we had been hit by a shell and um the intercom all went everything went the call light in the rear turret just flashed on and off and I thought that was the letter P which means parachute I was just getting myself ready to jump out of the aircraft when the bomb aimer came down and sought to see if I was all right at the end we got back from that all right, the next really bad thing we had was on 1st February 1944 we were briefed upon a placed called Seele[?] and er approximate seven o’clock night when we were just on our bombing run the rear upper gunner actually looked up and saw a bomb bay open on the aircraft above a bomb bay open with all the bombs on and he just shouted at skipper ‘Christ dive to port to port skipper’ and the cookie [?] [unclear] missed us but the incendiaries hit the side of the aircraft.
SJ: Oh gosh.
GC: And the aircraft was um a lot of incendiaries went off and they caught fire so the mid upper gunner and and the wireless operator used the extinguishers and also threw the bombs out of the aircraft ‘cos all the side of the aircraft was ripped open the rear doors gone the [unclear] gone as well and er that’s what they done and er I was looking up at the fuselage ‘cos my turret was US and ‘cos we’d lost and engine and the doors had gone and I looked up and saw something burning just outside the turret so I climbed out a bit got hold of it that was a couple of incendiaries threw them out the door just managed to get hold of them the end that wasn’t burning got back to the turret and I operated the turret by hand for the next three hours before we landed at a place called Horsham St. Faith in Norfolk just outside Norwich which was the B24 station after being there for three days we returned to Skellingthorpe and we assumed operations again nothing really happened to us much I know towards the end of tour we were I forget what town it was now we were attacked by Messerschmitts 262’s but they were so fast we just couldn’t do much about it, I enjoyed the life and we had a good crew in fact the best crew in the world I am the only survivor and I would never would say I wouldn’t missed it but wouldn’t missed it but I did you know I felt I had done something.
SJ: Yes.
GC: Um but there again I wasn’t the only one and I survived, after that I volunteered to go on to Tiger Force and I thought oh yes but instead I was sent out to India and I stayed in India.
SJ: Still in the RAF?
GC: In the RAF, came out the RAF in 1947 and been as you know I hadn’t seen civvy street a lot I stayed out the air force for a little while got fed up and went back in again I couldn’t get back on flying straight away so I was on air traffic control for a few years and then as runway controller and then I managed to get back on flying as er air load master and I finished up flying in transport command, air support command, helicopters [unclear] and then in 1970 I got grounded in Hong Kong and then I returned to England in 1971 on recruiting and then in 1973 I should have returned back on flying again on VC10’s but er didn’t [unclear] so I was grounded again and I finished up back on then recruiting then they asked for redundancies and I volunteered to come out of the Air Force in 1975.
SJ: Mmm so you did a good old time in the RAF didn’t you?
GC: Yes I did.
SJ: Yeah a good old thirty thirty odd years?
GC: Yes yes it is. Recently I’ve just been given the honour I’ll show you the paper.
SJ: Yeah.
GC: And er and I wear it.
SJ: Region DI yeah
GC: And I wore it at the Bomber Command Memorial I think I was the only one up there wearing it and a lot of people asked me what it was but er when I told them but I wear it not for myself but for the crew.
SJ: Yeah
GC: That is for our crew.
SJ: That’s it, it’s very special isn’t it yeah.
GC: [unclear]
SJ: No that’s very special.
GC: Here’s the er operations list for that raid [shuffles through some papers].
SJ: Oh I see yeah. What did you do when you left the RAF for a little while before you joined back up?
GC: Er I was I worked for a firm in Ipswich for a little while and I had a little warning I’d pack it in and then um I went on er insurance and er I had that for a little while and then I had that for a little while and then I had another little warning and I packed that in so the time I was sixty five er fifty five I was practically retired completely through ill health.
SJ: Yeah.
GC: And I ain’t worked since I’m nearly ninety odd so I wouldn’t worry.
SJ: [Laughs]. Yeah you enjoyed your time in the RAF?
GC: I enjoyed my time in the RAF and then I lost my wife in 89 and then I was on my own until 19 until 1992 when my wife now Joy she lost her husband and er she wanted some help and she managed to get hold of me and I went and helped her and of course been as we had known each other since 1942.
SJ: Gosh long time.
GC: And we used to socialise a bit with her husband and my wife and that and we got together and now we got married in 93 twenty two years ago in’t it come Friday.
SJ: Yeah.
GC: And that’s it and of course she’s never had all this trouble with her first husband Gordon he was these places sort themselves out [unclear] she’s bearing up on it and I’m proud of the way she’s taken it.
SJ: [Laughs]
GC: Ah well.
SJ: It’s good that you’ve got the history together I know you were obviously married to different people but it is nice isn’t it.
GC: Mmm oh yes we knew each other.
SJ: The memories haven’t you?
JC: Oh yes.
GC: Well she worked with my brother and everything see.
SJ: Mmm yeah.
JC: Yes I was a nurse for thirty five years.
GC: Yes.
JC: Yes.
GC: So there is not much to say really I’ve enjoyed my life and
SJ: Yes, no that’s good.
GC: I’m lucky to be alive you can say that again because we could have had that bomb on top of us and we wouldn’t be here now.
SJ: I know that was a pretty scary moment.
GC: It was yes, and er you see that was in the Canadian papers [showing a copy of the paper to SJ].
SJ: Okay yeah, you had a safe landing?
GC: Oh yeah we landed at um Horsham St. Faith in er just outside Norwich which is now Norwich Airport.
SJ: Oh okay yeah.
GC: That used to be 24 base.
SJ: So you’ve been quite all over the place in the RAF then?
GC: Mmm oh yes travelled around a bit.
SJ: Yeah you sound like you have yeah.
GC: Mmm I enjoyed it.
SJ: Yeah. What was the training like I’ve always wondered how the in war time what was your training like?
GC: Ooh I enjoyed it um especially aircraft recognition ‘cos that was one of my favourites and also pyrotechnics guns and other things.
SJ: Yes.
GC: Um I got top marks for gunnery in the Gunnery School and er as I say I always enjoyed the sort of thing I don’t know why but I never wanted to be anything else but a Warrant Office Rear Gunner I don’t know why a Warrant Officer but yes I did get Warrant Officer but that was way back after I’d finished and everything but.
SJ: Yeah that was the trade you wanted to do was it?
GC: It was during the war because I think what it was a friend of mine his brother was an air gunner was an air gunner on er Blenheims at RAF Horsham at the beginning of the war and I think this friend I don’t know why he used to talk things and maybe that’s what I want to be I didn’t want to be anything else.
SJ: No. How old was you when you joined?
GC: Well The first time I was er just seventeen I joined up and they well had the um went to Car [?] to be assessed for air crew I was okay ‘cos I put my age up six months to get there [laughs] and er somehow they found out my age and they scrubbed it all so I had to volunteer again for it again.
SJ: Oh yes.
GC: When I was it did upset me you know it wasn’t until I was nearly eighteen when I was doing it the next time and er I was on deferred service for a little while then I got called up and er I’m lucky enough to have got right through it all and I done my training and I enjoyed it always just above average and that was it.
SJ: Yes.
GC: I managed to keep above average all the time.
SJ: That’s good.
GC: Because that was the thing that I did enjoy doing.
SJ: And you were obviously good at it?
GC: I had I used to be able to strip a Browning 303 down and assemble it again blindfolded that’s how I used to really love it.
SJ: Mmm well when you find your love for it it’s interesting.
GC: Yes its something.
SJ: You do well at it don’t you yeah.
GC: Yes I was [unclear] it’s gone now and as I say everything I do anything that’s for my crew.
SJ: Is that how you feel about doing interviews and things?
GC: Well I do you see I, I met five of our crew after the war in 1946 I met the engineer in India, in 1989 at the unveiling of the Birchwood Memorial failed to return 50 and 51 Squadron I met my mid upper gunner, now John Bridger he got the DFM for that for putting the fires out in the aircraft John and I actually done our training right from the start we even flew together when we were training at Walney Island and I saw him in 89 and that’s fifty four that was fifty years fifty four years and then in er no forty four years sorry and in er 19 no in 1999 wasn’t it?
JC: 1999
GC: We went to Canada and we stayed with the navigator and the pilot came over to see me so the three of us met up at the end in 99 and yes a lovely fortnight over there with them.
SJ: Oh lovely.
GC: And then they all died after that I come back and phoned John Bridger up and told him I’d been over and met them and er he was quite thrilled and then he died of cancer then Gordon the navigator he died was that cancer he had dear I forget?
JC: Gordon died first and then Danny.
GC: Then Danny died yeah so now I’m the only one left.
JC: And you hadn’t seen each other when we went for fifty four years.
GC: Fifty four years.
JC: Fifty four years.
GC: We still recognised each other.
SJ: Yeah I bet well you don’t go through something like that and not recognise each other do you?
JC: Amazing really because when we got to the airport they’d got he’d got our names up you know so we could see him, him and his wife fifty four years is a long time.
SJ: Yes it is, I bet it took you right back though didn’t it?
GC: It did, I even went and saw the Lancaster at Hamilton and even got in the rear turret [laughs].
JC: Yes he did.
GC: I managed to get in it.
SJ: Did you see it when it came over here the Canadian?
GC: No I didn’t see it because I as I say I am handicapped now I’m I have to walk with crutches and I can’t walk very far even with them er when we went up to Lincoln to the unveiling of the Memorial my daughter my and her partner they even got hired a wheelchair to take with us and they pushed me around a bit but that was too rough to push round in the wheelchair so I didn’t see a lot of what I would have liked to see and I am hoping and praying that when it’s open I don’t know when it will be next year some time I understand I will be able to go up again and see it properly and er I have been promised on Friday Thursday night a presenter from Radio Suffolk said he’d take me up there.
SJ: Oh brilliant [laughs]. So what was the Special Recognition Award for?
GC: For the war time.
JC: For the war time.
GC: There was three of us there was this Navy chap he’d been torpedoed and then taken prisoner of war in Japanese hands, the other one was in the Army captain in the tank corp he went to Auschwitz and he was saying about he should have come home to England but been as he was single he was he stayed there because they said all married men home first and they kept him there he went there and [unclear] it was terrible and as I say the three of us were all recommended and they said right we will give you one each and we did and that’s what we got.
SJ: Lovely isn’t it.
JC: Yes it is it was nice to see the three of them together it really was.
SJ: Had you met them before?
GC: No never seen them before.
JC: No not till then.
SJ: No.
GC: In fact I don’t see anybody near where I was living ‘cos I moved around but I did form the Air Gunners Association in Ipswich when I came out of the Air Force in 1976 I formed that and um I was chairman there for quite a while until I had as I say I had me first warning and that told me I had to pack up the things that I used to but er.
SJ: Is the Association still going here In Lincolnshire.
GC: No it’s all finished.
SJ: It’s all finished.
GC: Even the National ones gone now so um we used to go round a lot one time when we went on different little holidays we went on we went and had a look at the air gunners room at um York at Elvington isn’t it.
SJ: Elvington yes.
GC: And there is a special room there for air gunners and my beloved was looking at some photographs there and she said ‘aye come here’ I said ‘what’s wrong’ she said ‘there’s a photograph of you’ [laughs] that was a photograph that was taken at Walney Island yeah at the Air Gunners School yeah but we used but we went to most of the museums don’t we dear.
JC: We have dear yes.
GC: Yes we’ve been to them all.
JC: We fitted in quite a lot while we could didn’t we.
GC: We did when I was going around.
SJ: When you were a bit more mobile?
JC: Yes.
GC: Of course now I’m lucky I can still drive but I can’t walk.
SJ: You still get about?
GC: Oh yes.
JC: We get from A to B and
GC: Get out the car.
JC: We try and get out as much as we can don’t we otherwise you.
GC: Otherwise we’d be stagnating that’s it.
JC: Like a vegetable [laughs] you’ve got to got to keep your brain ticking over.
SJ: Well hopefully you’ll get to see up to the Bomber Command Memorial next year.
GC: I hope to get there.
JC: I hope so I hope so.
GC: ‘Cos I was disappointed when the unveiled the one in London I phoned up to see if I could get some seats to see it unveiled and the woman at the Bomber Command Association who was doing this she said ‘are you a member of the Association?’ I said ‘no not now but I was on the Bomber Command list years ago’ and she said ‘oh I’m sorry there’s no seats there’s nothing available’ and I said ‘oh thank you’ there’s so many other people there who’d nothing to do with the Royal Air Force and they had everything and I couldn’t get a seat and my daughter she is one of these types she really went to town but um I was very very disappointed over that.
JC: Yes but still you went to Lincoln.
GC: Oh we went to Lincoln we went.
JC: To see that which you really wanted to do.
GC: Yes we used to go to call in at Birchwood quite often didn’t we take a wreath out there when we used to go on these coach trips to do with Bomber Command Battle of Britain Weekend and they used to take you all round and we always used to call in at Birchwood to see the memorial there and always take a wreath up there which was from the crew but and I’m sorry I can’t even do that now.
SJ: How do you feel about the Bomber Command Centre project?
GC: I thought it’s really good and er I think that um it’s long delayed and have to and people like yourselves and other people and I think the University has got something to do with it.
SJ: Yes they have yeah.
GC: They really done themselves proud and they’ve done us proud.
JC: Also we think where it is situated when you look out you can see the Cathedral.
SJ: Yes lovely.
JC: I think that is really beautiful.
SJ: It is it’s very poignant isn’t it.
JC: Oh I think it’s lovely.
SJ: Yeah.
JC: And the thing is that it had been raining the weather had been shocking and we thought well you know what’s it going to like going and that particular day it was a beautiful sunny day it was really really lovely and I mean obviously all round it was a bit muddy and whatever because they had so much rain but the actual day itself the sun was absolutely beautiful and as you stood and looked down you could see the Cathedral and I thought how beautiful where it was situated.
SJ: It is it’s lovely isn’t it.
GC: It is it’s an ideal situation because that’s the first thing we used to see was the Cathedral you see when we came back.
SJ: Yeah that’s what they said that’s why they put it up there.
GC: Mmm I know that’s the first thing, by the way get the medal over and show her.
JC: Yes
GC: Syria
JC: We were so lucky.
GC: I don’t know if you’ve see one of these have you?
SJ: I’ve seen pictures of them not one
GC: That’s the legion of honour.
SJ: Yes it is yeah I’ve seen photos of someone who received one the other day so for I’ve seen the photo the other day but they received it a while ago yeah, would you mind if I take a photo of this?
GC: I don’t mind?
SJ: To keep to keep with your archive no I will do that will be lovely. Is there any more stories and things that you want to say?
GC: Not really as I say that the only regret I have is that I never had my pint with old Baker [laughs].
SJ: Well when you get up there next year you’ll be able to see his name up there so it’s in alphabetical order so.
GC: No don’t matter really as I say I enjoyed my life in the Royal Air Force I enjoyed what we were doing I was scared yeah this was what I was saying we were all scared and if anybody said they weren’t they were bloody liars.
SJ: Yes I can imagine mmm, scary times I bet you worked hard and played hard?
GC: Yes I did I played all sorts of sports and this was what’s the result [laughs].
SJ: What was the social life like in the RAF?
GC: Very good.
SJ: Yeah I bet you’ve got loads of stories to say there haven’t you or?
GC: No I haven’t [laughs].
SJ: Not for recording?
GC: No there not [laughs].
SJ: Okay so well thank you very much.
GC: That’s all right.
JC: You’ve got to go back to Lincoln tonight?
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ACatlingG151121
Title
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Interview with Gordon Catling
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:26:31 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Sue Johnstone
Date
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2015-11-21
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Catling grew up in Ipswich and lied about his age to join the Fire Service as a despatch rider. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1943 and flew operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. He was posted to India after the war and left the Royal Air Force in 1947. In 1976 he formed and became Chairman of the Ipswich Air Gunners Association.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
14 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
fear
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/3442/PKirbyH1511.1.jpg
f2f26de792cac70f6b6c69e353b3a563
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/3442/AKirbyHVA160611.2.mp3
77fbbeda6cb538a1fc8c3a042b4c080b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kirby, H
Requires
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TO: This recording was recorded for the International Bomber Command Centre digital archive which owns the copyright for this performance. OK, so what year were you born in?
HK: 1923.
TO: And, er, where were you born?
HK: In Kilburn. Kingsgate Road, Kilburn.
TO: I live near there. I live near there at the moment. I’m in West Hampstead.
HK: Oh, right. OK.
TO: And, er, when were you a child were you interested in aircraft?
HK: Not particularly no, although we did go to the Hendon Air Mus— display on occasions, um, but not, not particularly interested when I was young.
TO: What, what kind of aircraft did they have at the display?
HK: I think they were, er, sort of two-winged planes, yes. I can’t really remember much about it.
TO: Right and were your parents in the First World War?
HK: Yes, my fa— yes, my father was in the Army but he managed to survive.
TO: Did you, er, did he ever talk about his time in the war?
HK: Very rarely. We did go to the, er, an Army museum somewhere and he did explain a bit what he did but not very much.
TO: Is that on? And, er, when did you leave school?
HK: When did I leave school? At sixteen. We had moved to Kingsbury by then and I went to Kingsbury County School.
TO: And, er, what were your favourite subjects at school?
HK: Maths.
TO: And, er, did you use maths in your first job?
HK: No, not really, no. My first job was in the accounts department of London Electrics Supply. That was in Waterloo but, er, maths didn’t really come into it much.
TO: And, er, in the 1930s did they, did the papers talk about what Hitler was doing in Europe?
HK: I think they must have done but I wasn’t really interested at that time.
TO: And did you go to the cinema much?
HK: Yes, quite often, yes. I usually went with my mother and brother. My father wasn’t terribly interested.
TO: Do you remember any specific films you saw? Are there any films you remember seeing?
HK: Not really, no. I remember seeing some silent films early on but, er, I remember a film called “Rin Tin Tin” about a dog but I can’t really remember much about it.
TO: I have heard about that film but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it but my grandmother mentioned it to me once. And, er, do remember hearing about the Munich Agreement?
HK: Oh, yes, yes. That was 1938 was it? Yes, oh yes. I was a bit older by then.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
HK: I’m not sure whether it was just to delay things or not or whether he really thought it would be appeasement. But, er, I just don’t know.
TO: And after the agreement were people making preparations for war?
HK: Yes. Oh, definitely, yes. They seemed to think it was definitely coming by then.
TO: Was there any preparations you were involved in?
HK: No, not until the war started and then we dug the garden for allotments but nothing much at the time.
TO: And do you think Britain could have made better preparations?
HK: I don’t think so, no. Oh, possibly got in a better store of food [slight laugh]. I don’t know.
TO: But were you surprised though when you heard that war had started?
HK: I think we knew it was coming. Yes. Yes. I heard the, um, broadcast by Neville Chamberlain.
TO: Do you remember how you felt when you heard it?
HK: I really felt that, er, we’d have to — well, I don’t really know at that time. I was only about sixteen so — but apprehensive probably.
TO: And did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
HK: I had some uncles in the First World War. Oh, a younger uncle, um, was in the fire service and then he went in the Army. Yes. That was all at the time.
TO: And, er, did, how did you feel when you heard that France had been defeated?
HK: Well, I thought we had our backs to the wall by then, yes. So, er, had to get down and try and preserve ourselves.
TO: Do you think France let Britain down?
HK: I don’t really think there was much they could do at the time. Germany was too powerful.
TO: And, er, when war had started did you think it would be a short war or a long war?
HK: Well, I had hoped it would be a short one but I, I really don’t know. I didn’t really have an opinion then.
TO: Were you living in London when the Luftwaffe started their bombing?
HK: In Kingsbury, yeah.
TO: And can you remember any specific occasions?
HK: We did have a, a bomb came down in the road but it didn’t explode but, er, it damaged houses, they — I think the toilets cracked or something and there was a house about three doors away that was more damaged and they had to leave it. But no, no explosions took place.
TO: Did you witness any aerial battles at that time?
HK: Oh yes, at the time, yes. I was quite interested.
TO: Were you worried that the Luftwaffe might win?
HK: What, what’s that?
TO: The Luftwaffe might defeat the RAF. Were you worried?
HK: Well, I suppose I was worried but, er, we seemed to have the upper hand at the end of the Battle of Britain.
TO: What did you think of RAF leaders at the time, like, er, Dowding?
HK: Well, I can’t say I had much opinion at that age, no.
TO: OK. Do you remember what kind of rations you had? [sound of rustling papers]
HK: I couldn’t say definitely but I knew we had rations. Things were in short supply, yes?
TO: Did you have better rations though when you were in the Air Force?
HK: Yes, definitely.
TO: And did you, did you have an air raid shelter where you lived?
HK: We had the indoor one, the Morrison shelter, yes. I don’t think we ever used it really.
TO: Would the Morrison have been much use do you think?
HK: The shelter?
TO: Yes.
HK: Well, it, it would have been but as I said I don’t think we really used it much.
TO: And as there much bomb damage near where you worked?
HK: Where I worked? Quite a bit, yes. This was up in Waterloo.
TO: And were you worried that Britain might surrender?
HK: I don’t think I was. No, I don’t think I was, no. I, if I thought about I thought we’d probably succeed which we did eventually.
TO: And did you ever see anyone behaving badly during the Blitz?
HK: I can’t that say I did. No.
TO: Do you think people pulled together?
HK: Yes.
TO: So, when exactly did you come to join the Air Force then? [sound of rustling papers]
HK: This is a bit of a long story. Two school friends and myself tried to get in early on flying duties. They got in, eventually became navigators, but I was turned down. I wasn’t fit for flying duties at the time but I was called up in ’42, initially trained as a, a flight mechanic, er, went on to do a training as a fitter and, um, while I was doing the courses they were calling for volunteers to become flight engineers. This time I passed the medical and eventually became a flight engineer.
TO: Do you remember what kind of medical tests they gave you?
HK: Well, I remember sort of blowing in a tube and holding the mercury up and the colour blindness test. I don’t really remember much else.
TO: Was there a certain, was there a certain kind of educational test you had to do?
HK: I’m pretty certain there was but I can’t remember it.
TO: And did your maths play a role with you being selected as a flight engineer?
HK: I think it helped, yes. [sound of rustling papers]
TO: And would you — did you ever consider trying to be a pilot or navigator?
HK: I did but, um, eventually when I was called for the medical, um, I did explain I had originally applied and they said at that time I was quite fit to become a navigator but as that was going to take longer I thought I’d persevere with being flight engineer.
TO: Once you got into a certain role, like flight engineer, could you reapply to be something else?
HK: Yes, certainly. Yes.
TO: And what did you relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
HK: My mother was very apprehensive, yes. But I don’t know what else, no.
TO: And so, er, can you describe a bit more about your training for being air crew?
HK: Yes, well after I’d become a fitter I was posted up to Binbrook and did six months, mainly repairing airplanes, and after the six months I was posted to St Athan to do my training as a flight engineer. Eventually I passed out, went to the heavy engineering, er, heavy aircraft place at Winthorpe where I crewed-up. The rest of the crew were all Australian. So, er, then we went to Waddington on 467 Squadron initially and later, after about sixteen operations we were transferred to, um, 97 Squadron, a Pathfinders squadron.
TO: And do you remember the first time you went up in a plane?
HK: Yes. That, that was when we had the old Stirling planes for training. That was the first time I went up, yeah, but I don’t really remember much about that.
TO: What did you, er, think of the Stirling?
HK: I think they were really clapped out by then. This was in, yes, early ’44. Actually, on the — my pilot’s first, um, solo on the Stirlings he couldn’t get the wheels down. I had to wind them down by hand which was a long job but then the, um, port one wouldn’t lock so we were advised to go to, um, one of the air, air stations that were — had damaged aircraft. That was in Suffolk somewhere. I forget the name and, er, we went there and the undercarriage collapsed on that, collapsed on that side. We spun round but no-one was hurt. Then the instructor came down with another aircraft and made my pilot fly it back. That was all the excitement we had on that station.
TO: Were most bombers, did most bombers have the same layout inside?
HK: No, not at all, no. They were quite different. The flight engineer on a Stirling was way back. I’m not sure what it was on the Halifax now but, er, with the Lancaster it was next to the pilot.
TO: I, a couple of years ago I spoke to a chap who had been a navigator in Lancasters and he said in the Halifax you had, the navigator had a separate office downstairs or something.
HK: I believe so, yes.
TO: Did you have a particular favourite aircraft of the war?
HK: A favourite one. Well that was the Lancaster. No doubt about it.
TO: Was it, was it, was it, did it feel different flying a Lancaster, flying in a Lancaster to other planes?
HK: What?
TO: You said you were flying in a Lancaster. Did it feel different on board a Stirling?
HK: Yes, yes, it was much better, yes. I can’t really remember much about the Stirling.
TO: Were you ever aboard a Halifax?
HK: No.
TO: Or a Wellington?
HK: No. No.
TO: OK. OK. So, er, when you were sent to the squadrons what, what did — were they mainly Lancasters?
HK: Yeah. They were all Lancasters where we were, at Waddington and then Coningsby.
TO: And as the flight engineer what would your duties be aboard the plane?
HK: Well, to assist the pilot in taking off, um, keeping an eye on the engine temperatures and oil pressures all the time, um, keeping a lookout on the starboard side, um, and doing any repairs which were possible on board. That was about it I think.
TO: Could you please describe the procedure for taking off in a Lancaster?
HK: Well [clears throat] initially we had to check, um, go round the aircraft and check the outside, then inside we had to run up the engines in turn to see how they were, watch there no significant [unclear] as they called it and, er, then we taxied to the start off point, run up the engines with the brakes on until we got the green light and then we were away. The only trouble was on one occasion, as we were going round the runway, um, the brakes failed and the pilot managed to guide it by the engines and at the start off point we couldn’t run up against the brakes as was normal. We just got to the start and pushed the throttle forwards and went off. But we got off OK then coming back we went — I’m trying to remember the name of the place where we first went with the, er, the Stirling, but they’d got a long runway so we flew there and so they repaired the brakes and we flew back.
TO: How reliable was the Lancaster?
HK: Very reliable generally, yes. We did have a bit of trouble with the intercom now and again but no, generally very reliable.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
HK: Yes, quite, quite friendly yes but, er, I think I ought to have been more friendly at the time but I was young, young and they were older people so, er, I, I don’t think I got as friendly as I should have done.
TO: How old were the people you were with?
HK: The, the ground crew? Oh, I reckon in their thirties, um, most, most of them I think were regulars. [beep sound]
TO: And what about the crew aboard the bomber. How old were they?
HK: Well, I was the youngest. The pilot was twenty-eight. I was just, just turned twenty-one. The bomb aimer was also early thirties and, um, the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator were quite young, um, mid mid-twenties I suppose but I got on very well with them.
TO: Did, were you, were you allowed to be friends with the — sorry, what was your rank?
HK: Rank? At the time I was just a sergeant, then flight sergeant and eventually warrant officer.
TO: Were there any rules about who you could be friends with?
HK: No, not, not really. I went about with some of the crew, yes. Of course though we were kept separate at the station, the officers and the NCOs separate.
TO: Was there ever any friction between the crew of the bomber?
HK: Not as far as I was concerned no. Never heard any.
TO: What did you think of Arthur Harris?
HK: I think he was just the man for the job at the time, yes.
TO: And, er, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
HK: Oh well, they — fortunately we didn’t have much of a contact with them. On our first, very first operation we were coming back and the rear gunner suddenly shouted to corkscrew and there was a plane. It was a twin-engine plane coming up behind and it let off a burst, and one bullet went through the rear turret and went through the rear gunner’s clothing and cut off his heating supply, which he was very aggrieved because it got very cold but we got back safely. The attacking aircraft I saw over— overtook us as we dived on the corkscrew and we never saw it again. So that was really a sort of a foretaste of what could have come but we were quite fortunate. We never saw any single or twin-engine aircraft again.
TO: And how do you feel about the Churchill deciding to order the bombing of Germany?
HK: How about —
TO: Churchill ordering Germany to be bombed?
HK: Well, I think it was war-time. I must say that in all our briefing we were all briefed to bomb military targets, um, not just towns, but at the time the accuracy of bombing was such that towns were destroyed, um, acc— well, not accidently, but I think the powers that be knew what was going on but, um, as I said we, we were briefed to bomb targets.
TO: I’ve, I’ve, er, I read, listened to an interview with Harris where he defended the tactics he used and he says that anyone who wants to criticise him for ordering the bombing of towns has never looked out of a window because if they had done they would know the cloud conditions over Europe means you can’t hit individual targets.
HK: That’s right, yeah.
TO: And were there ever any occasions where aircraft were damaged by the weather?
HK: By the weather?
TO: Like snow or thunderstorms?
HK: No, I don’t think so. Well, not as far as I was concerned, no.
TO: And, er, you just mentioned briefings. How did the briefings work?
HK: In what way?
TO: Well, how many people would you have in the room? Were you shown maps or photos?
HK: Yeah, well there was a big map at the front and with the target route marked. The pilot and the navigator had a separate briefing initially and then we all went together to the main briefing. I suppose, depending on the number of planes that were going, about seven crew, um, there must have been sort of getting on for seventy, possibly, in the main briefing, yeah. [clears throat] The commander got up and gave a brief talk and then the chief navigator and bomb— bomb— bombing instructor all gave a brief talk and we went for a pre-operational meal and got ready.
TO: What did you do to prepare yourselves for the mission?
HK: Well, just went, um, to the equipment room and got our parachutes and got dressed and waited around for the time to, to go off.
TO: And as you got on board the plane were you feeling nervous?
HK: Tiredness more than nervous, yes.
TO: And was there anyone who was actually showing any fear or were they all keeping it, keeping it to themselves?
HK: I think they were all keeping to themselves, yes.
TO: Do you know of anyone who during the war who wasn’t able — who just felt too nervous to get on board the plane?
HK: I don’t know of anyone, no. I knew there were people who decided they couldn’t go on but they were got off the stations as quickly as they could.
TO: So, if you can please could you describe your first ever mission over German?
HK: Well, as I said the first ever mission was the one in which we got shot at but survived that. The, er, worst trip was on the VI storage sites in France. This was a daylight raid and the mid upper gunner said, ‘There’s a Lanc immediately above us just opened his bomb doors.’ But before we could do anything we felt two thumps and one of the bombs went through the port wing and took away the port undercarriage and so I shut down the engine on that side because it was immediately behind the engine and, er, we came home on three engines and landed but our pilot decided to land on the grass runway, which we did, and again no one was hurt.
TO: Were you worried the plane would crash when the —
HK: Oh yes, yes. It came down. Our pilot was very successful in landing it. We did a belly landing because we lost all the hydraulics. We couldn’t get the other undercarriage down, couldn’t use the flaps on it. We just had to come in but, um, yeah, we were quite fortunate.
TO: And incidents like that ever — after that incident, were you reluctant to go on more missions?
HK: No, no, no. It was just a job.
TO: So, you mentioned that — was it VIs you were bombing?
HK: Yes, the VI storage sites, yes.
TO: Sorry can you describe what they are? I’m not familiar with them.
HK: The VI, the Doodlebugs, yes. They had storage places for them. This was at Trossy Saint Maximin. I don’t know where that is now but it’s in France somewhere.
TO: And what kind of pay load would the, would your Lancaster carry?
HK: Well, initially it was, er, thousand pounders and the incendiaries and then when we went to Pathfinders it was — we dropped flares initially to light up the target area as well as high explosives.
TO: Do you remember what kind of military targets you were generally after?
HK: What, um — the canal, Dortmund-Ems [?] canal, railway sidings, bridges, harbours, all sorts of things.
TO: And did you ever hear how, how successful your missions had been?
HK: Well, they did display photographs afterwards so we could see. I — definitely some of them were definitely successful. But, um, I don’t remember a lot about it, no.
TO: OK. So, was your first raid over Germany in 1943?
HK: No. ’44.
TO: OK and had you heard about the thousand bomber raids that —
HK: Yes. I had, had read about them, yes.
TO: And how many planes would generally accompany your Lancaster?
HK: I think it depended a lot, um, possibly upwards twenty, fifty, possibly a hundred. I, I don’t really know.
TO: Was there, were there any points on board a mission where you could relax to a degree?
HK: Well, we relaxed to a degree once we were on the North Sea on the way home but, um, we still had to keep a look-out. But, er, we didn’t really relax until we’d landed.
TO: And what was the procedure for coming into land?
HK: We had to call up the station and were given directions as to what height to circle and sort of gradually come down and then told we could go into land.
TO: Were landings scary at all?
HK: No, I don’t think so. I don’t recall.
TO: So, the incident where you mentioned with the — where had to shut down the engines, could, did you have control, does that mean you had control over the engines as you were the engineer?
HK: Yeah, it was, yes. I, I’m not sure I got the order to shut it down but I did it anyway because as the bomber had sort of taken all the bits behind the engine I thought there was a danger of petrol coming and catching fire and so that’s why I shut it down.
TO: But was the rest of the aircraft still working fine?
HK: It was, yes, yes. As I said we’d lost all the hydraulics. We couldn’t operate the flaps or what was left of the undercarriage but, um, the pilot did a good job.
TO: So, how many people would you normally have aboard the bomber?
HK: Seven altogether.
TO: And can you describe the conditions in general aboard the bomber?
HK: There wasn’t a lot of room I know that. Yes, well we had to get from the door up to the front of the aircraft, over the main spar and, er, but once we were in position it was quite OK.
TO: And how was morale in general amongst the crew?
HK: Generally pretty good, yes, yeah.
TO: And did your squadron suffer heavy losses?
HK: Occasionally yes, yes. I can’t recall any particular case but we did lose certainly some.
TO: Did you hear much about the American bombing of Germany?
HK: I didn’t hear much about it, no.
TO: And did the, your friends in the plane, did they talk much about their lives at home?
HK: Which, the friends?
TO: Your fellow crew members on the plane?
HK: Not a lot, no, no.
TO: And did the Lancasters get new bombs as the war went on?
HK: Sorry, did —
TO: Did the Lancasters get new bombs as the war went on?
HK: I suppose so. I don’t really know.
TO: And, er, were there any — do you remember any occasions where you were over major German cities?
HK: I remember going to Munich and Hamburg a number of times. We never went to Berlin but, er, yes. I don’t really remember much about that.
TO: Was there heavy anti-aircraft fire?
HK: Oh, plenty, yes. We could see them exploding in the air, yes.
TO: Did they ever come near the plane?
HK: We were fortunate. We didn’t have a lot of damage. We did have some shrapnel damage but not a lot, no.
TO: You mentioned was it the tail gunner who got the heating supply cut off? Did he seem traumatised at all by that?
HK: I don’t think he was traumatised but, er, he certainly remembered it because, um, when my wife and I went to Perth in Australia where he lived, we managed to meet him, he was telling my wife about it. He was most aggrieved about the heating supply going off [laugh].
TO: Was his reaction to it pretty normal?
HK: I think so, yes.
TO: And I’m sorry to ask this but do you know of anyone who died during the raids?
HK: During the Blitz, yes, distant, well, distant friends of my parents moved to a place. I lived in Kilburn initially and then moved to, um, a place near Barking and then one of the girls who was my age, um, was out doing fire watching or something but she was killed and, er, the others, one of the other sisters was wounded but I don’t know anyone else really close.
TO: Did you know anyone who, anyone in RAF who died on raids over Germany?
HK: Yes, yes, quite a number from the squadron we were on, yes.
TO: Did you ever talk about them?
HK: Not a lot, no. I remember we had two people from Ireland. One was a young chap, probably my age, and the other was a bit older and the older man was on his last mission, got shot down and killed, and this young chap was really upset about that. But, um, I don’t remember much about anyone else.
TO: And did you hear about the attack on the Ruhr dams?
HK: Heard about them, yes, yes.
TO: Did that have much effect on morale?
HK: I think it probably did but we were quite, um, happy that they had done it but we didn’t know a lot about it at the time.
TO: Do you think the raid was successful? [bleep sound]
HK: It was successful I think, yes.
TO: And were there any occasions when your squadron dropped leaflets?
HK: I can’t recall dropping actual leaflets, no. We did drop the window over — you’ve heard about that. Yes, but I don’t remember about leaflets, no.
TO: Can you please describe what the procedure was for deploying window.
HK: Well, there was the chutes near where I was and it was just unpacking the, er, packets and dropping them sort of shortly before went into Germany. But, er, I don’t think we had them all that much.
TO: Do you think window was effective?
HK: I think it probably was, well initially anyway. Later on I don’t know. There was a chute next to my position where I could drop them through.
TO: So it was your duty and not the bomb aimer?
HK: Yes.
TO: Can you explain how, what impact window had on the Germans?
HK: Well, initially it upset their radar quite a bit but then eventually they got used to it and I think that was probably why we stopped.
TO: I’m not sure if you’re aware but I think that just before Hamburg when they first used window Germany actually had developed the same thing but didn’t want to used it on Britain in case Britain used it on Germany. So both sides had window but both sides didn’t want to use it. [slight laughter] And you mentioned you only saw that twin-engine plane on that one occasion, did you ever see other German planes?
HK: In the distance, yes, yes, or near a target we saw a couple way below us. I don’t remember seeing any, any more, no.
TO: When you saw them were you worried that they would come near you?
HK: Was I what?
TO: When you saw the planes below you were you worried that they would come and attack?
HK: Well, they were well below us. I, I don’t know what they were doing but they were coming cross-wise but, um, two of them together, but whether they were after a particular target or not I don’t know.
TO: And were you sat in the cockpit the whole time?
HK: Yes, well mainly, yes.
TO: What would you do if you had to move around the bomber?
HK: Well, we had portable oxygen bottles we had to take. I did have to go back to the rear gunner once because his, um, the fluid was leaking from his supply line that operated the turret. I managed to put one of these circuits round because it, it had come off the supply, but he had to be very careful ultimate.
TO: Can you describe what kind of equipment you — sorry, what kind of clothes would you wear on board the bomber?
HK: A very thick jumper, um, some form of outer coat of some sort. I don’t really remember. Then a Mae West. I remember it was very bulky getting through the aircraft at the time.
TO: And did you wear an oxygen mask at all times?
HK: Yes. Pretty well all the time, yes. [cough]
TO: And where did you keep the parachutes?
HK: The parachutes. Well, my parachute was stored just behind me. The pilot had a, er, sit-on one as did the rear gunner I think. The rest of the crew had the parachutes as near as they could get them.
TO: And did the Lancaster have escape hatches?
HK: Yes, yes. There was one by the bomb aimer down in the front and then there was the door at the back and hatches in the roof.
TO: Were you ever told what to do it you ever had to bail out?
HK: Well, yes. We had to practice getting out.
TO: How did that practice work?
HK: Well it wasn’t in the air. It was on the ground, just getting through the front hatch.
TO: Were you ever worried about being shot down?
HK: I can’t say that I was particularly worried, no?
TO: And what kind of instruments did you have in front of you when you were sat in the cockpit?
HK: Well, the instruments at the side were the oil pressures and temperatures etcetera. In the front you had the normal — you know, I can’t really remember. I know we had the, um, all the knobs for pressing to cut off the engines but I wasn’t so much concerned with the flight controls as the engine temperatures and pressures that was at the side.
TO: Can you remember what would happen aboard the plane when you reached the targets and had to drop the bombs?
HK: Well, the bomb aimer gave directions and, er, and had to fly straight and level for a certain length of time and then he said, ‘Bombs gone.’ And immediately closed the bomb doors and got off as quickly as we could.
TO: Did your Lancaster ever carry a cookie?
HK: That’s the four thousand pound. Yes, I think it did on occasions but I can’t really remember now.
TO: Could you actually feel the bombs leaving the plane?
HK: Did —
TO: Could you feel the bombs leaving the plane?
HK: Oh, well when they were dropped yes. We did sort of go up quite suddenly.
TO: And were there any times when engines, when, not when damaged but when the engines just malfunctioned without warning?
HK: No, no. The engines were pretty good on the whole, yes.
TO: Merlins weren’t they?
HK: Merlins yes.
TO: [unclear] And did you ever go on — were your missions mainly at night?
HK: Mainly at night although we did do some daylight ones. These were mainly, as I said, over the storage sites of — in France.
TO: Did you prefer daylight or night missions?
HK: I think night because we couldn’t see what was going on.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you?
HK: Yes, we could especially when we were doing dropping the flares, yes.
TO: And can you explain, can you explain what the, how the other Pathfinder missions worked?
HK: Yes, there was Flare Force 1, which was — went out early when the bombing was due to start and we dropped flares then, er, if necessary, the master bomber called out for more flares and then there was the Flare Force 2 which was sort of circling around and then came in and dropped the other flares, and that’s really mainly what I can remember.
TO: When did they actually invent the Pathfinders, if you like?
HK: I think it came into force in 1942 because, um, they were worried about the, er, the bombing wasn’t very accurate at the time and, er, I think it did improve with the Pathfinders.
TO: So just to make sure I’ve got this right, the Pathfinders dropped the flares and the other main bombers would follow the flares?
HK: That’s right, yes.
TO: And was Pathfinding just as dangerous as other bombing?
HK: I think it was but we didn’t know much about it at the time.
TO: I don’t know if you can answer this question but how long did the missions tend to last, usually?
HK: From about five hours up to about ten depending on where the target was.
TO: How far into Germany would you tend to go?
HK: I think the furthest was a place called — I’ve got the, er, name of the place here.
TO: Do you want me to get it? Shall I get it? [background noises]
HK: No. [background noises] Yes, Trondheim in Norway but I don’t remember what the target was? That was ten hours.
TO: Would that have been the Tirpitz? The Tirpitz?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Would that have been the battleship, Tirpitz?
HK: Yes. Yes.
TO: Because that was around Trondheim or Tromso or something when it was sunk by 617 Squadron I think when they were dropping Barnes Wallis’s tallboys.
HK: Yes, yes. I think that was the longest one, ten hours.
TO: So, so were you on a pathfinding mission for the Tirpitz do you think?
HK: Yes. I, I don’t really remember what we were doing over Trondheim.
TO: I could be entirely wrong when I say the Tirpitz but I know that the RAF did go after it and finally got it in November 1944 so, so I don’t know if that’s adds up or — did you hear about the sinking of the Tirpitz though?
HK: Yes, I heard about it, yes.
TO: And do you feel glad to have had a role in it be destroyed?
HK: I, I don’t remember much about that raid, no. I think we had to go to Scotland and refuel before we took off but I don’t, don’t remember much about it.
TO: And what do you think about the bombing of Hamburg in 1943?
HK: We didn’t hear much about it at the time, no, so I can’t really say.
TO: And what about the bombing of Berlin?
HK: Well, there again I said we never went to Berlin so there again I can’t really say.
TO: And what about Dresden?
HK: Well, Dresden we were briefed to bomb the railway sidings. There, there was supposed to be a lot of German concentrations ready to go to the Eastern Front, er, which was what we did. We didn’t really know at the time how the town was devastated.
TO: Were you still on Pathfinders at that point?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Were you still on Pathfinders at that point?
HK: Oh yes, yes.
TO: So did Pathfinders actually carry bombs or just flares?
HK: We did carry bombs as well, yes.
TO: And were some cities more heavily defended than others?
HK: Yes. Those in the Ruhr were quite heavily defended, yes. Others not so much.
TO: Was Dresden heavily defended?
HK: That I can’t remember. I don’t think it was, no.
TO: When, was the, was the, was the AK 88 the main anti-aircraft weapon the Germans have?
HK: Yes.
TO: Were the crews afraid of it or was the firing generally inaccurate?
HK: I don’t know that we thought about it all that much and just hoped it didn’t get too close.
TO: Did you ever — I know you were at night but could you ever actually make out other RAF bombers nearby?
HK: Not usually, now and again, yes, we saw — yes. Some got very close.
TO: Was that — you probably don’t know but was the, the bomb aimer or pilot of that was above you when it bumped into the wing, do you think they would have been reprimanded for what happened?
HK: I don’t think they would have known because the bomb aimer would have been looking forward. I don’t suppose they realised what was happening but we never found out who it was.
TO: Would you hold it against them if you found out then?
HK: It was just one of those things. I don’t think they — well they obviously didn’t do it on purpose.
TO: How much do you think a Lancaster could take and still get home?
HK: Quite a bit, yes. I have pictures of the hole in the Lancaster the bomb went through if you would like to see it?
TO: We can see that later. Can we see that later? I’d love to see that. And ss the war went on did you, did you think the bombing campaign was being successful.
HK: I think, as far as I was concerned I thought it was, yes.
TO: And was there anyone claiming that the tactics weren’t working?
HK: I didn’t hear any, no.
TO: And, this is a strange question probably but when you’re, or not when you’re on missions but when you’re just sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft, did you ever get the chance just to admire the view down below?
HK: Yes, um, on one of the missions to Munich we were briefed to fly over the Alps and it was moonlight and that was a sight to see I must admit and, er, when we went to some of the eastern European count— towns we had to fly over Sweden, which was all lit up, and that was a sight to see as well. They did, well, we were told they would shoot at us but not to be too near. I don’t think anyone was shot down over Sweden.
TO: My, the navigator I mentioned earlier he mentioned that there was a crew of his that used to fly over Switzerland and said the Swiss would fire anti-aircraft guns but they would deliberately fire them too far away so —
HK: I think that was the same with Sweden, yeah.
TO: Was that strange to see towns that were lit rather than in black-out?
HK: Yes, it was certainly a sight to see [laugh].
TO: And did your plane, did the navigator, or not necessarily the navigator, but did your plane ever get lost, as in not sure where they were going?
HK: No, I don’t think so, no. I don’t recall that.
TO: So, again there was a pilot whose plane got lost because the navigation equipment got broken or something. Was it quite cold on board the plane?
HK: It wasn’t too bad where we were up near the front but it got cold further back but the mid gunner and the rear gunner had a heated suit but yes it was pretty cold back there.
TO: Do you know any Lancaster gunners who successfully shot down fighters?
HK: No, I don’t know any definitely, no.
TO: Do you think they were much use against fighters?
HK: I think so, probably helpful in, in keeping the fighters away, even if they were just looking out.
TO: Did you carry any food aboard the plane with you?
HK: Yes we had some rations. On the long, long operations but I don’t remember much about what we had except they were — we did have tins of juice, er, vacuum flask of coffee, some food of some sort but I don’t remember what it was.
TO: Do you remember if anyone had a firearm aboard the plane?
HK: No.
TO: And were you ever given instruction on how to evade capture if you were shot down?
HK: Oh, we did had some instruction, yes. Try and keep low and if we were over a country other than Germany trying to get hold of some local people if we could.
TO: Did anyone on board the plane actually speak German?
HK: Not as far as I know, no.
TO: How many missions did you go on during the war?
HK: Forty-four altogether.
TO: Was that a lot by RAF standards?
HK: Well, with the Pathfinders the normal tour was forty-four. You did the normal thirty and then there was another fifteen so we were one short of the total.
TO: How often would you go on a mission would you say?
HK: Sometimes it might be two or three times in a week. Other times it might be sort of a few weeks before we went on an operation, depending possibly on the weather or the targets, I don’t know.
TO: When you were on bombing raids could you ever see the fires below?
HK: I remember seeing when we were over some sort of harbour. I don’t know where it was. I saw one of the ships that appeared to be burning but it might have been a smokescreen. But apart from that I, I don’t remember because, er, we were usually the first in and then away.
TO: So, when, when you did go on missions were you told to — were you generally aiming as you said earlier only for certain targets, like the railways?
HK: Yes, we were always, um, given a briefing like that, not just a town, but definitely some sort of target.
TO: And was there anyone in the crew who just deliberately didn’t pay attention in the briefings?
HK: I can’t say that I know, no.
TO: Because I was just thinking well that if a gunner was at a briefing they probably thought it doesn’t matter what I’m doing. I’ve just got to shoot at the planes.
HK: I suppose they were.
TO: I don’t know.
HK: I suppose the gunners were at the briefings. I can’t remember.
TO: That’s just speculation by me. They might have been very interested but, sorry, it’s just that I think that’s what I would have done if I was a gunner. And what kind of entertainment did you have in the squadron?
HK: In the squadron? I can’t say that I remember much about any entertainment [slight laugh] at all, no. I suppose there must have been some but, no, it’s not something I remember.
TO: Did you ever go out to pubs or dances?
HK: The crew weren’t very, er, pub-minded and neither was I. We did go on some outings, um, some of the crew together. When we were doing the training for Pathfinders we went into Cambridge and out there. In truth there we had more interest in museums, which suited me, yes.
TO: Which museums did you like?
HK: I don’t remember now [laugh] but I remember going to some and — yes.
TO: I was recently in a few museums myself and looking round the Lancaster they have, or rather the Lancaster cabin, that they have at the, in the Imperial War Museum. I think they put it back as far as the navigator’s positon so you can, you can see into where everyone was sitting, sort of thing.
HK: Oh yeah.
TO: And other than the other ones you’ve mentioned to me already were there other missions that you remember very clearly?
HK: I think I’ve told you the ones that, er, I really remember but, um, I can’t say that I remember any others. We were quite fortunate really over all.
TO: You mentioned earlier on that — was it a gunner? One of the gunners shouted, ‘Corkscrew,’ when the plane, the fighter arrived. What kind of basic manoeuvres did the planes have?
HK: Well, we immediately dived and up and around and that’s why it’s called a corkscrew and, anyway we dived in one direction and up in another and so on but, er, we didn’t have to do that much and, as I said, the plane overshot us and —
TO: I remember reading I think that even though the Stirling wasn’t as good as a Lancaster it was decent at turning or something when it came to manoeuvres.
HK: It was too heavy I think.
TO: It was quite good at climbing but wasn’t good at turning or something.
HK: Oh yeah.
TO: Were you ever — was there any time when they brought in new equipment and you were confused by it?
HK: Yes. We had some new equipment, some cathode ray tubes, um, which the bomb aimer used to sit next to the navigator and assist him with the navigating and, er, that was towards the end of the war and, um, I was doing the bomb aiming then.
TO: So, what did you do as a bomb aimer?
HK: Well, the — I merely had to go down into the bay and press the tips when the graticule showed the marker but the bombs were all pre-set to go off at a particular time, um, but that was all done by the bomb aimer. He set up the equipment initially and all I had to do was press the tip when the target came into view.
TO: Was that to drop, release the bombs then?
HK: Yes.
TO: OK and did you do that often?
HK: I did about four or five times towards the end of the war, yes.
TO: And did you find out roughly how much damage the raids were causing?
HK: No, not really, no. We did have pictures taken by the later aircraft going over but I can’t say that I recall.
TO: And was there ever any occasions where your plane had to return early before it reached the target?
HK: No, apart from the fact that once we were all recalled because the target had been overrun by our troops so, um, but no, we, we carried on although I said once when we had the intercom equipment went the — we were told not to use it because the, the rear gunner, pilot were in contact but it was too weak to let anyone else but we decided to carry on anyway.
TO: So, how did the, er, communication work aboard the aircraft?
HK: Well, we had the speakers in the, er, speakers in the helmets plus microphones and you had to switch on the microphone if you wanted to speak. That’s all, pretty well.
TO: Was it very noisy aboard those planes?
HK: It was very noisy, yes, yes. So when we didn’t have the intercom it meant really shouting at the pilot.
TO: Was the noise mainly from the engines?
HK: Yeah.
TO: Were there any other occasions when you went to a target and found it was too cloudy to see the city?
HK: That I can’t really recall now, no.
TO: So, just going back, I’m keen to go back this one, the one over France with the VIs, did you actually get the chance to drop your [emphasis] bombs at the time?
HK: Yes. We did drop them, yep.
TO: So, so if I get this right. So even though you had a hole in the wing you were still able to go on with the mission or had you already dropped them?
HK: No, we hadn’t already dropped them. We were on the bombing run and we did actually drop them but, er, I don’t remember much about it, no.
TO: That’s fine, fine.
HK: I know we had to and I was watching out of the — because in case the wing was moving up and down more than it should but, er, fortunately we didn’t have to — if it had gone [laugh] we wouldn’t have done anything about it anyway.
TO: Would the, er, the pilot of the plane, would he ever be speaking to other aircraft in the squadron?
HK: Would he be?
TO: On the radio, would he ever speak to other aircraft?
HK: I don’t think so. Not generally no, no, I wouldn’t think so, no?
TO: Was it possible to communicate with them?
HK: It would be possible I think [unclear] had the necessary permission to do so. I don’t think it was normal, no.
TO: And did you ever attack coastal targets?
HK: Yes but I don’t remember where but I know we did have some, er, harbours and shipping there.
TO: What did you think of the — I know you weren’t on it — but what did you think of bombers like the Halifax?
HK: Well, some people that, er, flew the Halifax thought they were OK but I, I don’t think they had the — I don’t think they were as good as the Lancaster anyway but it is a matter of opinion.
TO: I do remember reading that a Lanc, a Halifax couldn’t carry a cookie because they didn’t have the space.
HK: Couldn’t carry them because of the load, no.
TO: So, er, did you hear about how — other events of the war, like the invasion of Normandy?
HK: Only on the radio I think. I don’t think we heard a lot internally about what went on.
TO: But when you heard that Normandy had been invaded did you think the war was in its final stages?
HK: Well, certainly thought so. We hadn’t actually started operations then. We were still at the Heavy Conversion Unit when we heard all the planes going over one night and, er, we realised what it was, yes.
TO: So, did you ever drop bombs around Normandy?
HK: Drop bombs?
TO: Around Normandy to help with the invasion?
HK: Oh yes, yes, yes.
TO: Was that area less heavily defended than Germany? Was there less anti-aircraft fire in Normandy than Germany?
HK: Oh yes, less, definitely less.
TO: And did you hear of events like Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
HK: Heard about it only on the news.
TO: And do, did you ever hear about other cases that happened where, where planes got damaged by overhead bombs?
HK: Not at the time. Although I believe it did happen on occasions.
TO: I know it happened to William Read, one of the VCs in Bomber Command, I think on a Norway mission or something.
HK: Yeah.
TO: And were there, was there anyone you know in your squadron who was shot down and became a prisoner?
HK: I didn’t know of anyone, no.
TO: And at the time of the war were you aware that Bomber Command had a fifty per cent casualty rate?
HK: Bomber Command?
TO: Had a fifty per cent casualty rate?
HK: No. We didn’t know at the time, no.
TO: This is a slightly odd question but if had you known at the time would you have volunteered for the Air Force?
HK: Maybe not but, er, once I was in — yes, it, it became just a job. I didn’t really didn’t take much notice. We didn’t hear of the, the losses at the time. I didn’t realise they were so great.
TO: Do you think they might have been keeping it quiet deliberately?
HK: I think they would, yes. I think that was definitely.
TO: Did you hear about, er, certain stories about the war and just dismissed them as propaganda?
HK: Yes, I’m not sure. I don’t remember any, no.
TO: And was there, was there a, a certain type of single-engine German fighter that was very feared by the crew?
HK: Oh, the Messerschmitt but, um, I didn’t think we were worried one way or the other, no.
TO: [background noise] So I’m just seeing which ones are nice. I’m just seeing which ones are nicer.
HK: [slight laugh] Thanks.
TO: Did you ever regret joining the Air Force?
HK: No. No. It was, in a way it was a university to me.
TO: And when, when you joined the Air Force was it possible, did you get a choice as to what duty, whether you went to Bomber Command or Fighter Command?
HK: It would have been Bomber Command, yes. As I say, when I was called up initially I was trained as a flight mechanic and, er, it was mainly for the Bomber Command.
TO: Do you remember when you receiv— received your call-up papers?
HK: Well, I only vaguely remember, yeah.
TO: And do you think there was a reason why, do you think there might have been a certain reason why you were put in the RAF and not the Army?
HK: I don’t know whether it was the education at the time. I don’t know. It may have had something to do with it, yes.
TO: Do you think you were properly trained enough before you were sent on missions?
HK: I think so. We had quite a good training, yes.
TO: And did you feel ready for war when it finished?
HK: Yes, I think so, yes.
TO: And were you ever stationed anywhere other than Britain?
HK: No, no.
TO: Do you know of anyone who was sent abroad?
HK: I know that some in [beep noise] [unclear] Association Branch were abroad. I didn’t know at the time but heard about it afterwards.
TO: And were you ever escorted by allied fighters?
HK: Only, only once I remember. That was when we were coming back on three engines. The rear gunner said, ‘There’s two single-engine aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter.’ But only a couple of seconds later he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires.’ And one of them did escort us back to the coast.
TO: Do you think maybe the pilot of that Spitfire could see the damage on your plane?
HK: Probably. Well, could see we’d only three engines going, yeah.
TO: I think there was one time, I was reading about it recently, during the war a German fighter actually saw a damaged American bomber and deliberately decided not to attack it because he could see how damaged it was and let it fly back. How did you actually feel about Germany during the war?
HK: Well, we knew it was the enemy and we had to do what we were instructed to do. I didn’t really think much about it at the time.
TO: Did you ever feel animosity against the German people?
HK: No. I can’t say that I did.
TO: Were any of your airfields ever attacked by German bombers?
HK: Not while I was there, no.
TO: And did any of the airfields ever run short of bombs or fuel?
HK: I don’t know, no.
TO: Sorry, I’m asking difficult questions here. And how many squadrons were you in during the war?
HK: Well, operational squadrons, two. That was 467 Squadron at Waddington and then 97 Squadron at Coningsby.
TO: Were there any times when actually your bombers were asked to attack German armies?
HK: The armies, German armies?
TO: Yeah.
HK: No, I don’t think so, no.
TO: And do you remember if the airfields you were stationed at had anti-aircraft defences?
HK: I think they must have done but I can’t say definitely.
TO: After Dunkirk were people in Britain afraid that Hitler would invade?
HK: I think they were yes, yes. Yes, we were very fortunate with the, er, the Battle of Britain fighters.
TO: Do you actually feel glad that you’d been put in the RAF?
HK: I what?
TO: Glad you were called up for the RAF?
HK: Glad it wasn’t the Army. Yes, certainly.
TO: Do you know anyone who was in or have any friends who were in the Army?
HK: I didn’t know anyone though definitely there were some from school who were in the Army, yes, joined the Army. Also at the time I think quite a few of them were called up for the RAF but I didn’t keep in contact.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
HK: Possibly what was known as the Battle of the Bulge was quite important at the time but I can’t say that I knew much about it at that time. I only read about it later.
TO: Was there heavy snow in Britain at that time?
HK: There was quite a lot of snow. We had to clear the aircraft and the runways.
TO: Did that ever effect operations much?
HK: I think it must have done to a certain extent but I don’t know details.
TO: OK. So what do you think was the best plane that the RAF had, in general?
HK: Well, as far as the Bomber Command was concerned the Lancaster but of course during the early part of the war the Hurricanes and Spitfires were the best.
TO: Did you know much about Wellington bombers?
HK: I didn’t know much about them, no.
TO: Was there ever any bullying in the Air Force?
HK: What?
TO: Bullying.
HK: What? Sorry I’m not with you.
TO: Was there any bullying in the Air force?
HK: Bullying? I didn’t know of any. No, I can’t say that I did.
TO: And were there particular songs the crew liked to sing at all?
HK: There was one that the bomb-aimer came out with. It was an Australian one presumably. I don’t know if you’ve heard it. It was about a — yes, something like “I put my finger in a woodpecker’s hole. The woodpecker said, ‘God bless my soul, take it out, take it out, remove it.’”And then it was, “Put it back, put it back, replace it” and it went on like that but I’ve never heard it before or since.
TO: I’m afraid I’ve never heard of it. [slight laugh] I guess I was lucky. Was most of your, was anyone else in the crew Australian?
HK: They were all Australian, yes.
TO: And did they, did anyone bring any kind of souvenirs aboard the plane, like personal possessions?
HK: I don’t know of any, no.
TO: Were you allowed to, I don’t know, decorate your own plane at all, that you could bring, I don’t know, if you wanted to bring an ornament with you could you bring that onto the plane?
HK: We could have done, yes, yes. The only things we were not allowed to take was money or things that could, um, easily tell the captors if we had to bail out where we’d come from, in case we had to try and have an identity of some other country.
TO: Were you ever told what you — did the RAF ever tell you how much information you could give if you were ever captured?
HK: Yeah. Name, rank and number. That was all we were supposed to say. [pause]
TO: So, when did the Lancaster actually become the main bomber of the RAF?
HK: It started in 1942 and it gradually built up from there so it was definitely the main plane of Bomber Command by the end of the war.
TO: What did you think of the bombers the Americans were using?
HK: Well, they — I think they did quite a good job but the aircraft weren’t any patch on the Lancasters. They couldn’t carry the, the load but, er, going as they did all alone at daytime I think they were very brave to do it.
TO: Did, er, did your squadron ever try and fly in formation when you were on missions?
HK: No, no formation. I know that when we went on to the daylight raids we were just more or less in a gaggle, not as a formation.
TO: Were there any ever any times when a bomb you were carrying failed to be released?
HK: Yes, there was one, which unfortunately got stuck up and we brought it back. We didn’t realise it at the time but no, no damage was done.
TO: So, what did they do with that bomb then?
HK: Oh, released it. It was up to the armourers. I think they released it and took it away. I don’t know what happened to it. It was a five hundred pounder apparently.
TO: Did you ever attack ships at all while they were at sea?
HK: Not at sea, no.
TO: [background noise] Sorry, you’ve answered a lot of my questions. I’m just trying to find some other ones. Did anyone, did the pilot try and tell anyone what would happen if he ever happened to get killed?
HK: Well, I was the one that had to take over it as necessary and I on training flights I was able to take over the controls and keep the plane more or less straight and level although the rear gunner said when I did it was more like a switchback [slight laugh]. But that was all.
TO: So, did the Lancaster have two steering columns or just one?
HK: No, we just had the one so I would have had to get the pilot out of the, his seat and get in myself.
TO: Was he allowed to teach you to do that?
HK: Yes.
TO: And would you have been able to land it at all?
HK: I don’t know [laugh]. I wasn’t taught how to do that.
TO: So, I’m just a bit puzzled why, why wouldn’t they teach you to land if you ever happened take over. It seems to kind of defeat the object of teaching —
HK: I think it was just that I had to try and keep it in the air while the rest of the crew got out.
TO: How did it feel to be in control of the plane though when you had it?
HK: I quite enjoyed it.
TO: Did you get a sense of pride doing that?
HK: Yes.
TO: What’s your best memory of your time during the war?
HK: I suppose the best memory was, um, when I heard that I was medically fit to fly.
TO: So, er, do you remember why they turned you down during your first medical test?
HK: I was slightly short sighted in one eye. At the time, um, that was quite important but it ceased to be important when I wanted to be a flight engineer, although as I ended up doing bomb aiming I don’t know. [laugh]
TO: Well did it ever, did your eyesight ever effect your performance?
HK: No, no. It wasn’t bad enough.
TO: Do you know whether the gunners had to have the same education as the other members of the aircraft?
HK: I don’t think they did, no. I’m sure they didn’t.
TO: Did you ever meet any famous people during the war as in senior commanders or leaders?
HK: I don’t remember, no.
TO: Did you listen to the radio very much?
HK: Quite a bit, yeah.
TO: And again, sorry for asking you this, but was the scariest thing that happened to you during the war?
HK: I think it was when the bombs came through the wing, yes.
TO: Did you think the plane was going to crash or did you think it could survive?
HK: I wasn’t sure whether the wing was going to fall off or not [slight laugh] but, er, so we were fortunate. Another few inches one way or the other it would have hit the front or rear spar.
TO: So, how far, how close to the fuselage was the hole?
HK: Well, it wasn’t very far away. It was the inner engine that got hit or just behind the inner engine. No, it couldn’t happen at a better place actually [slight laugh].
TO: And did it send a big shock wave through the aircraft when that happened?
HK: Well, certainly, yes. There was a big thump, yes.
TO: And when they said the Lancaster was overhead was everyone expecting a bomb?
HK: Well, we were expecting it but we didn’t have any time to do any manoeuvres. As soon as the mid-upper called out we heard the bumps. That was it.
TO: Did you think for a minute you might have to bail out?
HK: I thought that might be a possibility, yeah.
TO: And what about when you saw the German night fighter?
HK: Well, we were glad to see it disappear but, er, yes —
TO: Is there anything else you can add about that mission, about where you were going at the time?
HK: No. I can’t really remember.
TO: That’s fine. So, when — you mentioned as the flight engineer you might have to take over from the plane sometimes. Was it hard to learn how to take over or was it quite easy?
HK: No. We had training on the Link trainer so I knew what to do.
TO: So, did you volunteer for the Pathfinders or were you assigned?
HK: I heard after the war that the pilot, my pilot, had volunteered because he got extra pay for being — but whether that was true or not I don’t know but yes he volunteered first and we all agreed to go.
TO: Did you get extra pay for that?
HK: I think we did but I can’t remember that but I think we did.
TO: What was the average pay in the RAF?
HK: It was a few shillings a day I think. I don’t remember that, no. I know some people can remember these details but I don’t.
TO: That’s fine. And how do you feel about Japan and Germany today for the war?
HK: I think we should have lost the war [laugh] and we would have been better off than — yes. I don’t know.
TO: And why do you think that?
HK: Well, Germany and Japan seem to have done very well but—
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
HK: Probably wasn’t but I don’t know how things would have turned out if it —
TO: And what did you think of the memorial that they built in Green Park a few years ago?
HK: It’s a very good memorial, certainly. I wasn’t able to go up to the unveiling.
TO: They’re having a service in a couple of weekends there and going to be recording that as well. Did you hear about the holocaust?
HK: I can’t say I did during the war, no.
TO: And do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
HK: I certainly think so, yes. I think Harris was given a bad, was bad, er, treated badly. That was — everyone thought Dresden was his idea but in fact it came direct from Churchill originally.
TO: Did you ever happen to meet Harris after the war?
HK: No, no.
TO: And do you think the RAF played a critical role in Britain’s victory?
HK: Oh, definitely, yes.
TO: And do you think there was anything that happened to you during the war which affected you later in your life? [beeping sound]
HK: Oh, yes. I think the fact that, um, I did some technical training during my life in the RAF was — before I was called up I was working at the, er, an accounts department in Electrics Supply but after the war I wanted to do something more technical and the GEC were advertising for people in their, um, research laboratories in Wembley and I applied and joined and came a patent agent so, yes, it made quite a bit of difference.
TO: And what did you do in your career after that?
HK: Well I trained as — initially I got a science degree and did the patent office, patent agent examination and I actually stayed with the research laboratories, um, until I, my official retirement and then I went on a couple of days a week after that until they moved the whole thing to Chelmsford and I decided that was enough.
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what, what was the saddest thing you’d say that happened during the war?
HK: During the war? That I can’t really say. I suppose the saddest thing was, um, losing a very close cousin, who I was sort of brought up with, and caught diabetes and there wasn’t so much they could do about it at the time and she died. But that was during the war. It wasn’t anything to do with the war itself. I don’t know of anything connected with the war but it was so sad.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing the day the war ended?
HK: Yes. I was at, stationed at Coningsby, um, then we were sent home on leave, um, but the rest of the crew as they were all Australian were called back before me to be sent back to Australia, so I never really got a chance to say a proper goodbye, and it was only after the war when I went to Perth and saw the rear gunner’s name in the telephone directory that I got in touch with him. So, I don’t know if there’s anything else.
TO: So did everyone who were on that bomber meet again would you say?
HK: No, no.
TO: Did you get involved in any of the VE Day celebrations?
HK: No. I don’t remember any, no.
TO: Or did you listen to Churchill’s victory speech?
HK: I’m sure I did, yes, but I can’t remember it.
TO: Were you bothered by the fact that he didn’t mention Bomber Command?
HK: He what, sorry?
TO: In Churchill’s victory speech he didn’t mention Bomber Command.
HK: Oh yeah. I read about that afterwards, yes.
TO: But did that bother you when you heard the speech?
HK: Well, I can’t say I remember if I heard the speech. I must have missed it. I don’t know.
TO: And how do you feel today about your war-time service?
HK: Well, my particular service, I think I was quite fortunate and overall I had quite a reasonable time.
TO: Have you ever watched any films about the war?
HK: Some, certainly, yes.
TO: And what do you think of them?
HK: Some of them are quite good otherwise some aren’t.
TO: Any ones in particular that you liked?
HK: I think the one, the first one about “The Dambusters” was excellent, yes.
TO: And, er, do you think the atomic bombs were necessary against Japan?
HK: I think overall probably, yes, but if it had gone on we would have lost many more people, both Japanese and American and our country, so I suppose it, it was necessary. I think in a way it was a pity because it really put a shadow on nuclear reactors. I think if it hadn’t happened there wouldn’t have been quite an outcry on reactors that there is today.
TO: Were you involved in nuclear reactors after the war?
HK: Not directly but, um, the — our department was involved in patents for nuclear reactors and they did quite a bit of work.
TO: And, er, how do you feel about Britain’s involvement in events like Iraq and Afghanistan?
HK: In?
TO: In Afghanistan and Iraq?
HK: I think we probably should have kept out. I don’t think it really helps in any way. I just think it’s just made things worse.
TO: Is there anything you want to add at all about you war-time service?
HK: No, I don’t think so. I was quite fortunate overall and had quite a reasonable time.
TO: OK. Or is there anything you want to add which was important to you at the time which you‘ve not mentioned?
HK: No, I don’t think so, no.
TO: OK. Well, er, thank you very much for telling me about your experiences. It was really fascinating.
HK: I hope it’s not been a bit too boring. I couldn’t remember lots of things.
TO: It’s not boring at all. It’s amazing. No, no. What you could remember is amazing. Can I just, er, there is something I showed to another RAF veteran and you can either read yourself or if you want I can read it out for you now. This is a speech that Arthur Harris gave at an RAF reunion in 1977.
HK: Oh right.
TO: And he just basically talks about the role, basically pointing out, explaining what Bomber Command did and why it was so important now. If you like I can read it out but if you’d rather read it yourself out in your own time you can, whichever you prefer.
HK: Can I?
TO: Yes. You can read it out now if you want.
HK: Well, can I keep this?
TO: Of course. That’s why I bought it for you.
HK: Right, thank you.
TO: If you want to read it now you can or if you want me to read it out I can, whichever.
HK: Yeah. Well, I’d like to read it later.
TO: OK. OK. Right, thank you very much.
HK: Not at all.
TO: Sorry, I should have explained at the start, er, as an introduction that I’m supposed to do but because I was, because I was getting so many interviews done I forgot it. I just wanted to end by saying that we’ve recorded this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name’s Thomas Ozel and we were interviewing Mr Harold Kirby in London on the 10th of June 2016. Sorry, that’s the 11th of June. Thank you for this.
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AKirbyHVA160611
Title
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Interview with Harold Kirby. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:04:49 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Tom Ozel
Date
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2016-06-11
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Kirby grew up in London and worked in an accounts department before joining the Royal Air Force. He served as a fitter with 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook before remustering as a flight engineer. He flew two tours of operations with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons. He describes the Stirling that was used for training and also the Lancaster in which he flew on operations. He also describes the preparations before an operation and the procedure for landing. He explains how window and how flares were used by the Pathfinders. Harold gives an account of an incident where his Lancaster was damaged by another Lancaster dropping its bombs from above but otherwise says his crew were very fortunate. After the war, he worked as a patent agent until he retired.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
156 Squadron
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
briefing
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
military ethos
Pathfinders
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/347/3515/PWatsonPHC1701.2.jpg
1a6dd5111450a588dbfdd0228f3bae68
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/347/3515/AWatsonPHC170123.1.mp3
73879fdb831b3fe83b9751209444c0e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Watson, Peter
Peter Henry Clifford Watson
Peter H C Watson
P H C Watson
P Watson
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Peter Henry Clifford Watson (182029 Royal Air Force), his log book and a photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 101 and 115 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Watson, PHC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: OK [pause] OK, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MacCartney and the interviewee is Peter Watson. The interview is taking place at Mr Watson’s home in Clontarf, New South Wales on the 23rd of January 2017. Peter, you mentioned you were born in 1924 but I don’t know quite where. Where was it?
PW: I was born in South Wales, a very — in a little village near Cardiff.
JM: Right, and did you do all your education in Wales?
PW: I did part of it in Wales and then I went to King’s School, Worcester for four years. That’s a cathedral school in Worcester.
JM: Right and does that mean you were part of the choir there?
PW: I was. Well, yes, a little bit. I was what? I used to sing in the choir.
JM: Right, right and was that the, the latter part of your education?
PW: Er, well actually when the war started they evacuated the whole school to North Wales for one year and then they brought us back to Worcester, and then I finished my, er, matriculation in 1941, and left the school there and then started a training to become an engineer until I was old enough to fly.
JM: Right, OK, and so that was until 1943?
PW: ’43.
JM: When you enlisted?
PW: Yes.
JM: And whereabouts did you do your enlistment?
PW: We did it in London.
JM: Ah, the London Recruitment Centre?
PW: Yes.
JM: Right, OK.
PW: There were about a hundred of us in the, in the one intake and, er, I might mention every one of us wanted to be a pilot. We all wanted to fly Spitfires and shoot down Germans, and get Victoria Crosses, and then end up with a romance with the group captain’s daughter but it didn’t happen that way [slight laugh]. And after a couple days we were told, whether we liked it or not, we had to be trained as air gunners because there was a surplus of pilots and a shortage of air gunners, and that was the last thing we wanted, but we volunteered to do what we were told and that’s what we did.
JM: Yes, indeed and where did you do that? After you, you had your recruitment in London and then after that where did you go?
PW: Yes. We went to, I went to Bridlington in Yorkshire, just for ground training then flying training started at Stormy Down at South Wales for several weeks. And then we went to a thing called an OTU, um, Operating Training Unit, in Tilsbury [?] near Sal— , near Sal— near, er, oh dear, North Wales anyhow. And then we crewed-up and then finally went to a four — four-engine — you were trained on two-engine aircraft, then you finally became a crew member and a seven member crew was formed at the, er, four-engine training centre in Lincolnshire.
JM: Right.
PW: And then because we — when we were sent to our first squadron, er, it was known as a special duties squadron because we carried an eighth member of a crew. Instead or seven, we had eight. The eighth member being a German-speaking person, who had radio equipment, who was carried on board our planes to interfere with the German night fighter system.
JM: Right, so this is 101 Squadron?
PW: 101 Squadron.
JM: And this is in February ’44.
PW: Yes. Ludford Magna.
JM: Yes, yes and because that had the ABC equipment, um, is that right?
PW: Airborne Cigar.
JM: Yes, so that was, um, so you, you were in part of those flights there then?
PW: Yes, I did, I did I think it was thirteen or fourteen flights from Ludford Magna and then we were selected to go and form a new squadron, essentially with Polish airmen, at a place called Faldingworth, about twelve miles away, and we finished the rest of our tour with 300 Squadron.
PM: Right, so, um, how long, how — in the 300, 300 Squadron is the Polish Squadron is it?
PW: Yes.
PM: So how long were you in that squadron for?
PW: I think, I think it was about three months between the time that we’d — I think we’d done, I’m not sure, about fourteen or fifteen at Ludford Magna before we went to Faldingworth and we ended up doing the balance of thirty three trips with, with 300 Squadron.
PM: Right, OK. And so that took you through then to 1945?
PW: Well after, after we had finished our tour we had to be grounded for six months and I was selected for some reason or other to, to go to 460 Australian Squadron at Binbrook, in a non- non-operational unit, because they were doing a special — they were trying to introduce radar operated rear turrets in Lancasters and Halifaxes and’ um, I was part of that study to introduce that and it was called Operation Village Inn. But after that, after six months, I got orders to go back on operations so I went down to Number 3 Group in, in, um, Cambridge, and I forget the county’s name of Cambridge but it was Cambridge, and I did two daylight trips with, with 115 Squadron and then the war ended and then we went on to, er, taking food to Holland and then bringing back prisoners of war from France and Italy.
JM: Right, so that was all part of 115?
PW: Yes.
JM: Yes, right. So 115 was probably what? From about May, May ’45 was it?
PW: Yes, yes, 115, September ’45 until, er, September ’46.
JM: Right.
PW: And then, um, funnily enough I went to Leconfield for a two-week training course where your, your father was but by then it was just a post-war training and they were doing training for gunnery leaders, and then I was promoted to gunnery leader of Number 15 Squadron at Wyton. And that’s where I stayed until I was demobbed but I was a flight lieutenant by then. But then at the end, as a post-war economy measure, every war-time officer was reduced in rank from flight lieutenant to flying officer [slight laugh] so I was finally discharged as a flying officer.
JM: Mm, OK. So that was a little thumbnail sketch of, of your service there.
PW: Yes.
JM: Perhaps we’ll go back and, um, just take a look at each of those three sort of postings. What? You said you had about fifteen missions in 101, um, was that more over Ger— over Germany particularly or —
PW: Yes, essentially Germany and then —
JM: And was your, was your plane dropping bombs as well as jamming or —
PW: Oh yes. We were essentially a bomber but we just carried this extra man and we were honour bound never to talk to him about his job, even though he ate and slept with us, we were honour bound not to because of the secrecy but the aircraft were very obviously — you could tell which aircraft they were because they had big aerials forward of the mid-upper turret and, you know, they could pick us off easily and what we didn’t know at the time was that the Germans were able to hone in on our equipment. We didn’t know this until after the war. They were able to hone in on our equipment and pick us off and, er, hence our losses at 101 were much higher than the average. In fact, I think it was Nuremburg, which was the worst of all the night flights, when we lost 108 aircraft, 96 over Germany and I think twelve over England afterwards and, er, it was, it was a dreadful night but there we are. But yes, that was it.
JM: So, um, that meant, obviously, you were going into some pretty densely populated areas I presume?
PW: Yes, yes, yes. Places like Nuremburg, Munich, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, Brunswick, Berlin. I didn’t do Berlin but Berlin was one of the very populous, very common areas. Hamburg in particular, Kiel canal, where, incidentally we went to bomb the martialling yards but, er, accidentally dropped our bombs a little bit away and it, it landed on the German battleship the Admiral Von Scheer and sunk it. So, I mean how lucky were we? And when I say ‘we’ — the squadron. One of the planes from the squadron dropped its bombs in the wrong spot and sank the Von Scheer.
JM: It wasn’t your actual plane?
PW: No.
JM: Right, OK, well so instead of getting a bit of a bollocking they would — there was a bit of a cheer I suspect.
PW: Yes. Yes.
OK. Yes. Yes. So, um, OK. Then when you moved from 101 to 300 did your whole crew move together?
PW: Yes, yes.
JM: So your whole seven stayed together.
PW: The eighth member stayed at 101.
JM: Eight. OK and was your crew, were all of those eight people, er, English or did you have any other —
PW: We had one Canadian.
JM: One Canadian.
PW: Yes and our special operator later on was, was an Aussie, yes, called Beutel, B E U T E L, Graham Buetel. Yes.
JM: Aha and then in your — you had a number of missions in the Polish Squadron? What sort of — was the emphasis — was there any particular action?
PW: We were just, we were just part of the main force but we didn’t leave 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna until two weeks after D-Day, and D-Day was a particularly interesting project for us because we, we were put onto a special flight to try and imitate a naval fleet going from Dover to Calais to try and make the Germans think that that was where the invasion was going to take place, and we went round in, in sort of square circles for about six or eight hours to try to imitate — dropping window stuff to make the Germans think that that might have been where the invasion was taking place. Whether it succeeded we never found out.
JM: So that was still part of 101?
PW: No, er, that was part of 101 and it was the last but one I think before we left, yes.
JM: Right OK and then in, um, Polish Squadron just normal —
PW: Just normal.
JM: Normal routine flights there. Day and night or just —
PW: No, all night stuff and we took a lot of Polish people as extras on flights prior to them taking over the — on their own flights. You see, the Ger— the Polish airmen were complete for one air— for a particular aircraft. It would all be Polish, but before they did that we used to take them as second dickies and things like that, to get them trained and also to control them because they were a very uncontrollable lot, in the sense that their, their hatred for Germany was so great that there were rumours, and I think it happened, that after bombing in Germany they would go down at ground level and try and shoot at all the searchlights with the rear gunners but that was the sort of emotion that existed on that station and it was very prevalent.
JM: Yes so —
PW: But mostly I think of my flying is with 101 because that’s when the dramas started and I did have a couple of dramas.
JM: As in?
PW: Well, I was extremely lucky. In the first flight that we made we got attacked by a Focke-Wulf 190 over the, over the target, and we got hit a little bit and we hit him a little bit and he came back for a second attack on us. We fired at him again and we saw him — well, we saw him going past at the side of us after he flew to one side and another aircraft watching from the other side, flying parallel with us, saw the pilot bail out, so we were unofficially given the credit of having destroyed him, and it was a particularly nasty experience because we also got, we were hit in many places but none of us were personally hurt and we, we thought after that flight we wouldn’t last more than two or three more flights because it was so horrendous, you know. But then the second night, that was at a place called Schweinfurt. And we went to bomb Schweinfurt because they had a lot of production of ball bearings at factories which they needed for the for U-boats, and the U-boats were giving curry in the Atlantic at the time, and they thought if we could bomb the ball bearing factories the U-boats couldn’t go to sea and they couldn’t sink our ships. That was the sort of theory. But the second night was a night where I’ll always remember because over the target we were coned by searchlights. There would have been fifty of them at least and, er, an explosive, a shell, blew, blew us underneath us whilst we were on our bombing run and it completely destroyed all our hydraulics, and also we were hit with another bomb dropping from an aircraft above and we had about six feet of our wing tip broken off. And luckily our pilot, who was wonderful, managed to keep us stable and fortunately all our engines were OK, but we ended up with our bomb doors open with, with some incendiaries that we couldn’t release and, and we couldn’t come back and land normally. We had to come back and belly land because we had no wheels to put down, we had no flaps and we didn’t know even whether we’d make it because we, when we hit the ground we had all these incendiaries on board, but fortunately they dropped off and went off like fireworks while we skidded on the ground for about half a mile and then finally came to a stop, but we, we never thought that we would survive that night but we did. And, do you know, one of the first people to turn up afterwards while we waited for a crew wagon to pick us up was the Salvation Army canteen and they offered us cups of tea and cigarettes. Oh, they were wonderful and, er, but the emotional part of that is that I had to go into hospital for a short while and while I was there my crew went off with another gunner in my place and they never came back. Well they came back but they crash landed and were all killed so there was I, on my own, and the thing that, I suppose emotionally, and I never forget and it’s still with me, er, we shared a Nissan hut with two crews, our crew and another crew, so after my crew disappeared I was the only the one there with the other eight members of another crew. Two days later they disappeared so I was one, one person in a room of sixteen, in the middle of winter with nothing else to do, and the emotion, and knowing that all your crew were dead. And, er, you didn’t have group therapists in those days. You just had to put up with it and that’s sort of stuck with me ever since [sniff] mm.
JM: Goodness me and, and then they expected you to go off and just happily join a new crew and get on with it.
PW: Well, once, once you were — you were seen as a jinx. If you were a survivor of a dead crew nobody wanted you, er, but there were so many times when crews needed other people that I was eventually put with another crew and within a few days we were all good mates and I, we spent the rest of our tour as a crew very happily. Yes.
JM: And is that the crew — and that crew was also all —
PW: They were all English.
JM: English. Which crew was it that the —
PW: Well the pilot of my first crew was a Sergeant Roy Dixon and, er, I didn’t know until later that the night that he died his commission came through as a pilot officer. He was just a sergeant before and he also got the Distinguished Flying Medal. And I have a photograph here of our aircraft when it landed I could give to you if you like.
JM: That would be very interesting to see that.
PW: Incidentally, in the photograph because of security reasons they ob— obliterated the two aerials.
JM: Of course yes, yes.
PW: Yes. That was, er, that was life but it was tough because our losses and, in fact, at Nuremburg we lost five aircraft. That’s a lot of aircraft in one squadron.
JM: That’s a lot. That’s a huge amount, yes. At least from all those subse— those first two missions were the first two that really —
PW: Blooded us.
JM: Yes, well and truly, and then from there on in you, you and your crew stayed intact for the rest of the course of the — all your other subsequent missions, which is so pleasing given such a horrendous, horrendous start for you. Yes indeed. And, um, and then on that basis I guess nothing compared with those early experiences from 300 and 115 really?
PW: No, no, no, they were much easier. I mean, you couldn’t go on and you couldn’t get away with what we got away with there more than once I’m sure, but, er, and luckily by the time we landed from the flight, because we were flying with our bomb doors open and no flaps and so forth we landed when, after everyone else had gone, had landed. Sometimes, or very often, when you got back to your aerodrome there were twenty other aircraft waiting to land and you hung around for perhaps an hour before it was your turn to land but by the time we got home we were about an hour late —
JM: You were a straggler.
PW: And we went straight in but we weren’t allowed to land on the runway. We had to land on the grass which really was good because it was wet and soaking and —
JW: Made it slippery [unclear]
JM: And flame-wise it was good and we didn’t — we anticipated we might blow up because of the bombs we still had on board but they dropped off instantly, fortunately, and by the time we came to a halt — and I don’t think there was much left in the petrol tanks [slight laugh]. But on our first trip I might have mentioned that the — when we were attacked he hit one of our fuel tanks and set it on fire but we were able to extinguish it with an extinguisher system that they had in the aircraft, which is wonderful. And one of the big, one of the big loss reasons — there were two reasons we lost a lot of aircraft, one was collisions, because when you had seven or eight hundred aircraft all going within half an hour of bombing a place you had to be more, more careful than ever of bumping into anyone else and the only times you could see them was when it was moonlight. Other times, all you could see was the red, red exhausts. The exhausts of the Merlin engines are red hot and the only thing, that’s the only thing you could see on a flying, plane flying alongside you, but you had the rear gunner, the mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator and the bomb aimer all looking because they didn’t have anything else to do until they got to the targets, you see. I mean, the bombers would — the air gunners were looking for fighters but the others were also looking for fighters but as well to make sure you weren’t bumping into any aircraft and we had a couple of near misses. But that was the way things were.
JM: That’s right. Right and with, with this crew, um, you stayed together right through in 300 and 115. Did you stay together for the post-war stuff as well?
PW: Yes. Yes. The war finished in, well in May and then in August we were going to go out of the Far East because Japan was still, still active in the Far East but then in August of that year the war ended in Japan, so we never went but we were kept as a squadron. The Air Force kept a fairly strong force of Lancasters and Halifaxes for at least two years and one of the reasons, probably never written in history, but England was frightened of Russia coming west and we, I think the Government, decided we’d better stay powerful, so I didn’t get de-mobbed for two years after the war had finished. But by then of course I was a gunnery leader in 15 Squadron but we had very, very little to do and very boring in the end.
JM: Yes, so you were actually doing what? Training flights or —
PW: Training flights and things like that. And, er, when the immediate war finished in Europe though we were quite busy. We would fly to France and pick up released prisoners of war. The Americans flew them from wherever in Germany, and Italy, and around there to France and then the Royal Air Force used the Lancs and Halifaxes to fly them back to England. And I, I think we had seventy thousand prisoners we managed to get back. Then after that we flew out to Italy to bring similar prisoners of war who’d been stuck in Italy. We flew them back to England. And we loved those trips because we’d never been abroad and it was the first time we’d flown into a place where it was really hot weather and we could buy apricots and peaches. [laugh]
JM: Because again you were flying in, in spring summer sort of by this stage so —
PW: Yes and really the gunners were really only like only flight lieutenants, yes.
JM: Because you actually had no —
PW: Nothing to do except being sort of stewards for the people and of course it was very uncomfortable where they could sit down in the aircraft wherever they could find a spot.
JM: Well that’s right because I presume they tried to put as many people as possible onto those flights to maximise the, the value of each trip so to speak.
PW: Yes. That’s right. It took about five or six hours to get from Italy back to England and that’s a long time for people not in very good condition.
JM: Well because a lot of them would have had injuries, um, sickness and being in prisoner of war camps they would have been in pretty poor shape generally I would assume.
PW: And, er, quite a lot of them had been originally before the war out in India and they were on their way back to Europe in 1940, ‘41 I guess, and they got caught in North Africa and from there they were taken prisoner by the Germans and sent to Italy, so some of them hadn’t seen England since 1935.
JM: Goodness me.
PW: Yes and there was one, there was one old tough old fella there and we put him up in the nose so he could see the white cliffs of Dover and we flew — he started crying. He couldn’t, couldn’t resist. It was very emotional.
JM: He couldn’t not [emphasis].
PW: No.
JM: Goodness me. When you went did you — was it like a day trip for you in as much in that you went straight back in, loaded the servicemen, and then flew straight back out again or did you fly in and have a day off?
PW: Oh we always had a day off.
JM: Day off, right, OK. So you actually got to see the immediate surrounds of the airfields where you flew in then?
PW: Yes, yes.
JM: What memories do you — any particular experiences that stand out there?
PW: [laugh] Funnily enough, funnily enough, um, the first time we went in it was a place called Pomigliano and it was very much a basic aerodrome, and on the end of the runway was a local road, and when we went in the first time we saw a horse and cart [slight laugh] going across just as we were going in and we missed him fortunately. That’s one thing I remember. The other thing was that, you know, being young and, and flippant, we were only what? 19 or 20 years old. We all liked to smile at the local girls but they all had to be chaperoned and, er, they would always have a mother or father or a brother with them so we had to be very careful there. The other thing is that the fruit that we had never seen before, oh it was beautiful and, er, also, you wouldn’t believe it, but even then the, the Italians were flogging watches, you know, wrist watches, and we’d never seen, we’d never seen this sort of post-war stuff that the Italians were doing and, er, funnily enough, and I suppose it’s OK to say this, but our navigator had a girlfriend and he bought her a watch, and because of customs finding out, he put the watch inside a condom and then put it inside an oil filter in the aircraft until we’d got back to base. So whether, whether he got oil in the watch I don’t know but that was one of the funny things that happened. You were asking for unusual memories and that was one of them [slight laugh]
JM: Yes, gosh that’s — it would have been interesting to know whether he got it out in one piece or not undamaged. Yes and so you had those flights and then subsequent to that you had the Manna flights as well?
PW: Yes.
JM: And how many runs would you have done?
PW: I think we only did only about three.
JM: Right.
PW: Yes, and the first time we went over we had to come back because the airfield or the — I think it was a sports ground, where it had been arranged that we should go and drop, it was full of people and we realised that we would, we’d be bombing people with tins of flour and potatoes and things like that, so we came back and waited until the Germans cleared the thing and then we went in and dropped the food. We weren’t very accurate because we’d never been trained and one lot went into the greenhouses. That didn’t appeal to them very much. But you saw people on, on the roof tops waving sheets and clothes and things just to welcome us because we had to go in at ground level. And one thing that I remember one of the last trips we made was on the VE, er, VE night when there was to be a big celebration in the, in the mess, have a party to celebrate the end of the war, and we had flown so low that we evidently hit the branch of a tree because when we got back we found our bomb door, when we opened it, had a big scar in it and it was a piece of tree in it and so our ground crew were very upset because they were going to miss the party because they had to repair it overnight [slight laugh]. Isn’t it funny how you remember these little things.
JM: Yes, absolutely. And so were your trips there all to the same place in — when you were doing these drops?
PW: Yes.
JM: Which was where?
PW: It was Juvincourt in France and Pomigliano which is virtually I think Naples, in Italy. Yeah, they were was the only two places we went.
JM: The Manna drops I’m talking about.
PW: Oh, the Manna drops. No, I think, I think two were to The Hague. I think one was Amsterdam or Rotterdam. It’s very vague now, yes. I have a photograph of, of stuff being dropped whilst we were doing training in England. We did train for a few days to know how to do it and I’ve got a photograph if it’s any use to you.
JM: Yes, we’ll have a look at that afterwards. Thank you. That would be very interesting. And so then, um, with 115 I believe there were a couple of notable planes in that squadron. Were you ever, um, did you ever hear, were you ever close to any of those pl— notable planes or just —
PW: Well, it was an unusual squadron, um, because with the development of radar we were able to, we were able to go and bomb and have the bombs released from a ground station instead of ourselves and we were able then — I think our last trip, I think it was to Hamburg or somewhere and we were able to bomb half a mile from the front line British troops, and there was a bridge or something they wanted bombed and, and, er, I can tell you now. Can you just pause for a second? [pause] To The Hague and one to Rotterdam. That is food dropping. Then we went to Juvincourt to pick up prisoners, ex-prisoners or war, two trips there, and the last was to Brussels and then we went to Eng— to Europe after, to Italy, Operation Dodge it was called. We went to — oh, Bari but it was actually I think it was Pomigliano. Bari is, is the capital of — it’s on the Adriatic side of Italy. And, er, after that that was the end of our really useful work.
JM: But you were saying about [unclear] the, um, with the bombing with the — from the ground the — that’s using the G coordinates is it?
PW: It was called, um, it was called G2 I think. We flew in formation of three and, er, only one of the aircraft had the equipment on board and as soon as he dropped his bombs we, we dropped visually on his bombs. We saw his going. We knew they were due to go and as soon as he felt his go he pressed a button and we would release ours.
JM: Right and which —
PW: Hamburg I think it was.
JM: Hamburg. [background noise of pages turning] I’m trying to think back. ’45.
PW: Yes. 115. Just April ’45. Just one month before the end of the war. ‘Intense accurate heavy flak,’ I notice here. So that was at Bremen, not Hamburg, I beg your pardon.
JM: Right.
PW: Bremen and we were damaged by flak. It was very, very accurate. But sometimes, you know, you’d feel a bump then — well we didn’t knew where it came from but when you got back home you might find a few holes in your fuselage and, er, on one occasion, it’s rather amusing, the only bloke who got damaged was our bomb aimer and he got, he got damaged. He got a piece of shrapnel into his bottom [slight laugh], not seriously, but he was the only one who was hurt. But frostbite was a problem for the gunners and that was what put me into hospital, um, when they went off with another gunner. It was at Ludford Magna. I’d got a lot pain. It wasn’t severe but it was enough to stop me because you had to be one hundred per cent fit before they’d allow you to fly. If there was anything slightly wrong with you they used one of the spares to take your place. Particularly important was the breathing because, you see, up at above ten thousand feet you had to go onto oxygen, and one of the reasons why the losses were so great with rear gunners was it took so long to get out of a turret, if you had to get out quickly, because if he was on oxygen he’d have to disconnect, then find a bottle of, a bottle of portable oxygen, connect that up then [emphasis] get out of his — and what? He had four pairs of gloves on and, and trying to get out was hopeless. I would say two or three minutes at the earliest he could need to try to get out a rear turret and in the meantime, of course, by then it could be too late. And on that trip to Augsburg that I mentioned we got hit, as well as damaging our hydraulics, er, the bottom floor of the aircraft was blown out and the rear door, which we used for getting in and out of it, was blown out as well so how we, how we got back I don’t know to this day. And he, and Sergeant Roy Dixon, our pilot, he was all of twenty years old. You know, when you think of it —
JM: Amazing, amazing.
PW: So I, so I have a lucky star.
JM: You have indeed and were you a mid-upper gunner most of the time?
PW: Most of the time I was mid upper, on a few trips I was rear gunner. Most of the time I was mid- upper, yes, yes.
JM: So you would have been able to —
PW: Oh that’s an easier place to get in and out of. It doesn’t quite get so bitterly cold because you got a little bit of heat coming back. The people at the front were warmed by the engines. They had a warming system and so forth but the, the rear gunner was the coldest of all.
JM: That’s right.
PW: And I might mention one of the big losses was that the Germans introduced a very clever idea, instead of firing from wing guns, they put a forty millimetre cannon into the fuselage pointing upwards, forty-five degrees, and they would come up underneath and fire at us, and a forty mill— cannon you only need a few things to set the petrol on fire and that would be the end of the aircraft but, you see, we couldn’t see them because we couldn’t look down. The Americans had a belly gunner but we didn’t. We had nothing. We were blind. That’s right.
JM: So that’s why quite a lot of losses were due to that experience.
PW: Yes.
JM: Yes and with, um, your crew after the war did you maintain contact?
PW: No, no. Well you see we came out to Australia two years after I retired from the — well I was demobbed from the RAF and, er, they were all scattered all over the place. We sent Christmas cards but they eventually disappeared. I never kept up after I left, left England in May ’49.
JM: May ’49.
PW: With a three month old baby.
JM: Right. OK.
PW: And when we got on board, on board the migrant ship, the people at the top of the gangway they said, ‘OK Mr Watson you go down that end of the ship and Mrs Watson and the baby you go up that end.’ So three weeks of the trip we were separated. Of course we met during the day but at night — but of course instead of two people in the cabin we had four because they were — anyway we were very lucky to have got that migrant ship, very lucky.
JM: And that was May ’49, so coming, stepping back a little bit, so you were demobbed in, um, ’47 so between, er, from the time you were demobbed did you work or —
PW: Yes, I went back to the company that was training me as an engineer.
JM: Where was that?
PW: In Cardiff.
JM: Cardiff right.
PW: Yes and [slight laugh] I was earning, I was earning five shillings a week, would you believe it. It’s one of those things, like an apprenticeship. I think they called it an articled pupillage? Anyhow, my boss was a wonderful man because in the meantime I had fallen in love with a lovely girl and wanted to get married but on going back to getting back to getting fifteen shillings a week or five shillings a week I couldn’t do that and he smiled at me and said, ‘Look, you get married and I’ll see that you’re alright.’ And he did [slight laugh] and I was with that girl for fifty-eight years and she died in 2004.
JM: Right, right.
PW: Yes and her best friend had lost her husband, and she and her late husband, and Audrey my wife and I had been friends for forty years, and when Audrey died Ruth, the other, the widow, and I got together and we’re together now. And it’s been twelve very happy years.
JM: Very good.
PW: And that’s her there.
JW: That’s her there. That’s right. And so you got married and then made the decision to come to Australia. What prompted that decision?
PW: Er, well first of all I had developed asthma. I’d had a little bit of it as a kid but it came, it came back as a post-war thing I think and somebody said, ‘Why don’t you go to a warm climate?’ Not, not only that I was in an industry that was going to be nationalised, and everyone was very depressed, and even in 1949 rationing was still on. You still had to ration petrol and that sort of thing. And Audrey, my wife, had an uncle, who was very prominent in Australia, and he came to London on a conference and while he was there he came down to see his sister, who was my — was Audrey’s mother, and said, ‘Look if you come to Australia I can assure you we can get you a job and we need new migrants.’ That’s how it all started and never looked back.
JM: Never looked back. No, so obviously —
PW: And our three-month old baby is now sixty-seven and we produced as Aussie but she died in a car accident when she was sixteen. It’s one of those awful things that you have to put up with. So that’s my story as an air gunner.
JM: Yes and that’s — and when you came, when you migrated did you come here to Sidney?
PW: No, sorry, we migrated to Perth.
JM: Perth right.
PW: Yes. We were there for seven years and then I got a job with Caltex Oil as an engineer and I was there for thirty-two years. Not in Perth but a couple of years after I joined them, er, they promoted me to a manager of an installation in Adelaide, and so we moved to Adelaide and we were there for ten years, and after penny died ( she was killed in Adelaide) the company said, ‘Why don’t you come to Sidney and start again.’ And my wife was a very plucky mother and she was fretting terribly and though she resisted coming she knew it was the best thing to do, so we did it, and that was 1967 and we’ve been here ever since.
JM: And did you come here to Contagh or — straight away?
PW: No we were three months in — the company had a flat in Martin Place, Martin, no not Martin. Oh I forget the name of it. Anyhow, Win—
JM: Oh, OK.
PW: And we were there —
JM: Market Street.
PW: Market Street. That’s it, yes. Right opposite the park.
JM: A brilliant park there.
PW: Yes and whilst we were there Audrey was looking for a place. She was the searcher for a place to come and live and she was offered this place and it had been on the market for five months because, as you can appreciate, young people can’t afford to live here and old people don’t want it because it’s so steep but at the time you buy you never think you’re going to get old, do you? So anyhow we bought this place for, would you believe, thirty-five thousand dollars [laugh] but that’s how things were.
JM: That’s how things were back then. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right, yes. So right and as I say — well you just stayed with Caltex through to, until you finished?
PW: Well, I was sort of given a package. When computers came in and they wanted to get rid of numbers and all the oldies, I was fifty-nine by then, they said, ‘Would you please go.’ Sort of thing.
PW: So I retired from there and I started a business of my own which I’m still running.
JM: Oh OK, right. Oh very good, very good, and that’s just a sort of consultancy business I presume?
PW: Yes, yes. It’s to do with finance broking, yes, but for twelve years, the first twelve years after I retired, I actually had a pump agency for an American company and I eventually sold that and with the proceeds I started a broking company ,which I’m still running.
JM: Still running. Goodness me. And going right back to the very beginning when you enlisted, way back in ’43, what was the decision, was there any decision in particular that directed you to Air Force rather than Navy or Army?
PW: Yes, yes. I’d always, you know, wanted to fly and so you vol— put your name down as a volunteer and I guess they kept your name on until you were old enough to be called up. And, and they said, ‘Are you still keen?’ And I said, ‘yes’ and I went up to Birmingham for a test, a medical test, and back to Cardiff and they said, ‘You’re fit enough. We’ll call you up next week.’ And they did [laugh]. It was a great disappointed when we were told we had no choice.
JM: To be an air gunner.
PW: Nobody wanted to be an air gunner. They called it the lowest form of animal life in air crew. But still there we are.
JM: And what — you said you’d always wanted to fly. What was the attraction, of just being —
PW: Well I think, um, the Battle of Britain and the success of our, of our planes then inspired young people like myself and, you know, you were going through the romantic age of what do you want to be when you know you’ve got to go? And Air Force was more appealing than the Army or the Navy. Yes, my sister went into the Navy. Ruth, my partner, she was a WREN. Yes, so we were all in it. And, er, actually we were, before that, in 1941, it’s the only time that Cardiff ever got bombed badly. A few times, I remember there was one bad raid and I was stuck in Cardiff while the raid was on but it was OK. But then I had to walk back to my little village, which was seven miles away, in the dark because the power, all the power had gone off. When I got there I found all the windows and doors of my house had been blown in and what had happened was that a stray bomb, because I mean who would want to bomb a little village, a stray bomb the Germans had dropped about a hundred yards on the other side of the road, on the golf course that we faced, and it had blew it all in but my family had gone to the back of the house into an air raid shelter that they had there and they survived. But we had to evac— evacuate our house because it was unliveable until it was repaired. So we went down to a place called Llanelli, which is about fifty or hundred miles west of there, put up with some friends and eventually got back into our house.
JM: Right. And your family had built the air raid shelter in the garden?
PW: They actually converted the back veranda with steel and stuff and, you know, and when the raid was on it as only my mum and my sister. I was in Cardiff, and my eldest sister, and my elder sister sorry, and my two sisters and my mother and another cousin, who was expecting a baby, but she lived in London and came back to Cardiff, came down to Cardiff to have her baby because she thought it was safer and she ran into — but they survived.
PM: Yes, yes but even in Cardiff though and out, and I appreciate that you’re saying your village was seven miles out of Cardiff, but even then the, um, the normal procedure was to build some sort of — at that time was to build an air — some sort of shelter?
PW: Something safe. I think the main thing was with those sort of things was that falling beams from your house or your roof. You know, I mean, you hear of people hiding under the dining room table because that was protected but, um, and some people put an air raid shelter in their, in their garden, and the Government provided a galvanised iron sort of thing. It was a very easy thing to do but it was the safe, the safest thing you could do.
JM: Mm, yes. So that would have — that was just another sort of —
PW: And it was the only bomb that had ever dropped in the village. Because, you know, I would imagine the like, having the experience later on, you sometimes had the odd bomb that didn’t drop off and you went and released it and it didn’t matter where it fell so long as you got rid of it. So I think that’s probably what happened. But of course the local press said that they were after the, you know, they put all the experienced people have said, ‘Oh yes, well they knew something we didn’t.’ It was wonderful.
JM: Oh dear yes, yes, but as you say that was the only time that Cardiff was actually —
PW: Heavily, severely bombed as a city. Other times it had bits and pieces blown, er, thrown at it but this was the Baedeker [?] raid but it wasn’t successful in the sense that it wasn’t concentrated, it was spread out, but what had happened was that they — it had effected the power supply and everything was in dark and, you know, in January that’s really dark and when I had to walk home seven miles in complete darkness —
JM: And that was January ’43 was it or ‘42?
PW: ’43,
JM: ’43, yes.
PW: Sorry no, ’41, yeah, two years before I went — I was only a school boy.
JM: Right, right, so ’41. Mm, gosh. So that was a very, much of a little bit of a taste of what London was experiencing and all the other cities in England , so —
PW: Yes, yes. I think what had happened was that they stopped bombing London. I think they thought they couldn’t do any more with London and I think they were going to concentrate on shipping ports to try and starve England. That was — they really wanted to starve us into submission, you see, with their U-boats and they were very successful and very close to succeeding I think at times. But anyhow Cardiff is a port, you see. Cardiff is very much like Newport, our Newport here. They produce steel, they produce coal and about the same size but there you are.
JM: Yes, yes. That’s right. Yes, and in terms — you mentioned you didn’t maintain any contacts, er, long term ongoing contacts with your former crew members.
PW: No.
JM: Did you, were you aware of any associations, um, to link up with, you know, in Australia here at any time? Did you became a member of RSL or join in and then subsequently — about the only other organisation would have been the Odd Bods Association because you came here to Sidney in ‘67 I think so —
PW: Oh I’d been in the RSL right from day one and of course I joined 460 Squadron old boys here because although I didn’t operate from 460 I was sent to the Squadron and we used their aircraft for training on this thing called Village Inn. Yes, and actually for me it was six months of very easy living because I didn’t have to fly on operations. By then I was an officer and you were in — and Binbrook was a peacetime built ‘drome so the facilities were very, very good.
JM: Yes, so that was sort of a, a far more peaceful, less stressful, sort of period of time for you rather than the stress of the tour?
PW: Oh there was no stress at all whatsoever. In fact it was very easy living. That was the intention to try and defuse you and, you know, so — by the way my second pilot, who I joined after the raid when Roy Dixon was killed, we kept an association afterwards and he, he left Bomber Command and went into the Fleet Air Arm, and finally he was retired, and he came to my wedding in 1946, er, and but then he went out to North Africa doing something with the shipping company. We kept on for a little while but we’ve lost — I’d have liked to have kept — I regret now that I didn’t.
JM: But communication back then is not what it is today.
PW: No, I think that’s right.
JM: I mean between — only being able to post letters that took weeks to, to get anywhere and you couldn’t make phone calls back then because they cost so much money between Australia and, and the UK and, er, not everyone had a phone back then you know so —
PW: But I always felt though I’d like to have kept in touch with Roy Dixon’s family, you know, but, um, I mean I was — although I was in hospital I wasn’t serious in hospital but I was just not fit enough for flying because of this frostbite thing but, um, when Roy was killed in Norfolk he was able to be buried back in his home, near Doncaster I think it was, and but they wouldn’t allow me to go to his funeral because of the, ‘Oh, why you? Why are you alive and my son is dead?’ Sort of thing. I can understand that and of course you also had the problem with people who couldn’t take, couldn’t take it and they refused to fly after their first two or three missions. Their nerves went. And they were very, very severley treated by the Air Force. They were branded LMF, called lack of moral fibre, and they were sent off nasty jobs and got rid of.
JM: Very difficult times.
PW: Oh very difficult. I think fear, fear kept you together and, and doing the right thing by your mates, you know, kept you together.
JM: And I think, from what I understand, that’s what they used that glue to keep those crews together to, to ensure that moral support within the crew all the time.
PW: Well, one of the things that I haven’t mentioned but it is significant is, how do you choose your crew? And the simple answer is that, er, when you were, when you were — during training and you’d finished, everyone was ready to be put together as a crew, they put you all into a hangar one afternoon and there was probably hundreds of us, after we’d finished our training, the pilots, navigators, bomb aimers and so on and they said, ‘Listen boys you’ve got to form yourself into crews. Go and have a yarn with each other and see if you can match up friendships.’ And that’s all it was and it was the most successful system the Air Force had ever used because you were then with people who’d picked you or you picked them and, you mean, you might see one bloke and say, ‘I like that bloke. I wonder if he needs an air gunner.’ Or a pilot might say, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ If he liked the look of you and I said, ‘No’ or ‘Yes’ and that’s how it went, and you ended up with seven crew, seven members of the crew. One or two of them might have been officers but it didn’t matter. You were all crew together.
JM: Yes, that’s an interesting approach to the way —
PW: Some didn’t like it. It was a very sensible thing to do.
JM: Yes, well I guess it was from the point of view that they knew they were going to keep the crews together so it was important for the crews to each like each other.
PW: Yes, exactly, yeah. And that also built a camaraderie I suppose so you never let your crew down. You were always aware that without you they could be in trouble and each one, perhaps less with wireless operators and bomb aimers, but with pilots and navigators — well, if they didn’t have a good navigator you were in trouble because you’d get picked off. If you didn’t have a good air gunners who picked up enemy aircraft when you should be shooting at him, you know, you realise how important each job was. And, er, and also I found that we were attacked many times but if they find out that you, if you fired at them quickly they would leave you alone because it was awful for them to come in from behind with — you’ve got four guns in the rear turret and two in the mid-upper and you’re firing bout twelve rounds a minute and he’s got to fly into that to shoot at you so he never came in behind you, he came in on a curve. Now, if, if you saw him coming in on a curve and you timed it right and then you turned the same way as he was going he couldn’t get around to shoot you, so if you, if you kept your nerve and did the corkscrew at the right time he’d never get you. Interesting.
JM: Very interesting.
PW: But of course doing a corkscrew when you’re in several hundred aircraft, right?
JM: It was a little bit difficult.
PW: Collision was awful.
JM: Yes. Again comes back to the skill of the pilot and to the lesser extent the navigator.
PW: And more often as not he still had his load on board, his bombs. Never mind. I don’t know how many tons, I suppose four or five tons. I’ve no idea but it was a very heavy load.
JM: It was a very heavy load to take but Lancasters and Hallies were all carrying at that time.
PW: Your husband would be on Hallies I would think?
JM: Not my husband, my father.
PW: Pardon.
JM: My father.
PW: Your father rather.
JM: On Hallies yes. So, yes. So that’s some amazing memories that you’ve shared with me now. I really appreciate your time and, um, your thoughts.
PW: Well, thank you very much.
JM: But there’s probably time to wrap up at this stage. I presume there’s nothing else that you, no particular thoughts that you want to mention. Any other things that you — you mention you do speeches for Probus Clubs so was there anything from those speeches we haven’t covered or —
PW: No I think what we’ve covered is what, what formed my thing. A lot of people ask questions because they had parents or uncles or brothers who said, ‘Did you know Sergeant Jones, so and so.’ You know. But it was a big force, the bomber force, we didn’t — but there we are. I’ve had a very lucky life, very lucky, and lucky in that sense, you know, but and also I was one of the luckiest — we’re not recording now are we?
PM: Yes.
PW: Oh. Well it doesn’t matter but, er, one of the fortunate things was that during the depression of 1935 to ‘38, ‘39 my father retained his job, which was pretty good in those days, which enabled me to be given a decent education and that’s held me in good stead all my life. And that’s why I, one felt that with the education that I had, to have to be an air gunner was a bit degrading because, you know, we were all pipe-dreaming at the time about it. As I said before we wanted to fly Spitfires, the glamour of that, being shot at [laugh].
JM: Yes, indeed, indeed.
PW: But we made wonderful friendships and some of the bravery of some of those fellas was quite incredible. You’ve probably read about it all.
JM: Did any of the — your pilot wasn’t awarded any, um, given any award for bringing that plane home in the way he did?
PW: Yes. He was awarded the DFM but he didn’t know it until he died, you know, when he died it was the same day that his commission came through. So he got the DFM not the DFC. DFM is for non-commissioned, DFC was for commissioned. I got a Polish, Polish award. I forget what it was called now, something, er, but I never bothered with it but it was just some sort of service medal, you know, but there you are.
JM: Very good. Aright well I think we’ll wrap it up if you’re happy with that?
PW: Yes. What’s the time?
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AWatsonPHC170123, PWatsonPHC1701
Title
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Interview with Peter Watson
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:05:04 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Jean Macartney
Date
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2017-01-23
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Watson was born in South Wales and joined the Royal Air Force in 1943. He wanted to be a pilot but there was a surplus of pilots so he became an air gunner. He crewed-up and flew with 101 Squadron initially, a special duties squadron, and he explains they took an extra crew member who had radio equipment, Airborne Cigar, to interfere with German systems. He describes the first two flights being memorable; on the first night his aircraft was shot by a Focke-Wulf. On the second night, during a bombing trip to Schweinfurt the aircraft was coned by searchlights and was badly damaged by a shell and bomb being dropped from above. He also describes the squadron’s role in D-Day. He later transferred to 300 squadron, a Polish Squadron, to help train the Polish crews. He completed 33 operations. He describes the Operation Manna drops and Operation Exodus, picking up prisoners of war. He was eventually de-mobbed in 1947, by which time he was a Flight Lieutenant gunnery leader. He talks about the discomforts of flying but also the camaraderie of the crews and his distress at losing a crew. They didn’t return when they went on a flight without him. After being de-mobbed Peter returned to a job in engineering but emigrated to Australia in 1949 with his wife and baby.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Kiel Canal
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
101 Squadron
115 Squadron
15 Squadron
300 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
crewing up
fear
Fw 190
Gee
grief
military ethos
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
radar
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wyton
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7936/MHarrisonR[Ser -DoB]-151208-06.jpg
8a50b367c1cd7f1a91787776f240067f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, R
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Bombs dropped by a 70 Squadron Liberator cascade on to V for Victor of 37 Squadron during a raid on the shipyards at Manfalcone, Italy on 16 March 1945. Although the bombs had not fallen far enough to become ‘live’ the perspex in Wally Lewis’s mid-upper turret and the port inner propeller were both ripped away, leaving a large hole in the fuselage behind Squadron Leader L. Saxby, the pilot, and hitting Flight Sergeant Cliff Hurst, the WOP, in the back, leaving him unconscious. However, V for Victor limped home to Tortorella, more than 300 miles away and landed safely. Squadron Leader Saxby and his bomb aimer P/O G.T. Barker can be seen inspecting the damage.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bombs dropping onto B-24
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph 1 is a vertical image of bombs dropping from one B-24 onto a second.
Photograph 2 is the damaged B-24 on the ground showing the damage. Two crew are looking through the damaged areas.
The caption describes in some detail the events. The pilot was Squadron Leader L. Saxby and bomb aimer was Pilot Officer G. T. Baker are seen in the second photograph. The wireless operator Flight Sergeant Hurst was hit in the back and rendered unconscious.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03-16
Format
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Two b/w photographs from a scrapbook
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Identifier
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MHarrisonR[Ser#-DoB]-151208-06
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
37 Squadron
70 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
bomb aimer
bomb struck
pilot
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/496/8385/ACookeWH150902.2.mp3
520742a38839114b64a9671fc300d352
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cooke, William
William H Cooke
W H Cooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Cooke, WH
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. An oral history interview with William Cooke (2220169 Royal Air Force), log book and other service material, medals, photographs and memorabilia. He flew operations with 49 Squadron as an air gunner.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH. So good afternoon to persons listening to this tape. Today is the 2nd of September 2015, eh, I am Mark James Hunt, I am one of the volunteers with the International Bomber Command Centre at Lincoln. I have, today, the privilege in interviewing Mr William H Cooke at his home address in Mansfield, eh, and what we are going to do is, Mr Cooke is going to commence the interview and take us through his activities prior to being called up, then through his time with the RAF, subsequently to the RAF and then onwards to his association etc. So at this time, I am going to ask Mr Cooke to take over and start to recount his tale please.
WC. Right, well, I left school at fourteen into not much of a job, just an errand van-come drivers job, eh, which I stayed with until I got called up at eighteen. Eighteen and a half I actually almost to the day, when I went down to St Johns Wood for aircrew training. Eh, the ,usual thing there we, eh, the usual tape, parades etc, one of which I remember quite well. It was about midday, we were doing a great coat parade, which meant we were on parade in full kit with our great coats on, as I say, the middle of the summer this was, so it was a bit warm, and eh the, the sergeant in charge and the officer in charge, who was taking the thing, were going behind each mans’ great coat and measuring it from the floor to see the correct length of this great coat, which went on for quite a while. Until all of a sudden there was a bit of a commotion, and one of the lads in the back row of the parade collapsed, obviously it, it had got a bit too much for him, the weather had finally managed to get to him. So that was the end of that parade. From there we went to Bridlington, I can’t remember the name of the unit there, but we did the initial square bashing and the start of training on morse code and aircraft recognition etc, and the Browning Machine Gun of course. From there, we went to Bridgenorth I believe, I can’t remember what that station was called, but from there [cough “excuse me”] we had, I believe brief week or so leave and then we went to the Gunnery School, Air Gunnery School in Northern Ireland. Eh, that course lasted till just before New Years Day on eh, that would be 1944, eh I was lucky I got through very well and passed that top of the course, so I did ok there and from there we, I went back to England. Eh, again a bit amusing, we came back on the eh, Steamer from Larne onto Stranraer, and we couldn’t actually dock properly at the eh, Stranraer, so we had to off load from the Steamer onto a smaller boat, with full kit, kit bags etc, and then we went to the dock, and we had to climb up a wooden ladder up the side of this dock, again with full kit etc, and half way up, an MP, service policeman at the top, called to us “have your passes ready when you get up”. You can imagine what the result of that was. Somebody said, “I was [unclear] do you want that as well?” Anyway, it was a great relief when we first actually then got hold of the side of the dock, to see two RAF police corporals meeting up with a bunch of bolshie sergeants with bright shining stripes on their arms. We just went in for a bit of a fun do, you know. Anyway, from there, I think from there we went home to leave and I was on leave for a few weeks, because the passing through process then was held up along the line. And from there I went to [cough] Upper Heyford I think it was, to start eh, OTU training, OUT at Upper Heyford and its satellite Barford St John. And from there, where did we go from there? Let me think. I think from there we went to Scampton I believe was the next one for a short, what was supposed to be a commando course, which turned out to be just a few weeks filling in again. So from there er, the process gets held up you see, and from there, we went to eh Winthorpe on 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit, and eh, after, after getting through that we went to Scampton. No, yes, no, yes, we did a few weeks at Scampton, and then we went to Syerston, No. 5 Lanc Finishing School and from there, the big day, we were posted to a Squadron. Eh at Squadron, I think we arrived one day and we did a short test run with another pilot, and then our skipper went on the next operation, and after that we were said to be ready for operations, and the first one was Guiros. And eh, that was the operation that the man I had been hoping to be crewed up with, eh, went on and he got lost. His crew didn’t return. Anyway, from there on it was just a matter of doing ops, getting leave every six weeks or I think it was and until we completed the, well eh, partly completed, I beg your pardon, partly completed the tour because then the station, the squadron was transferred to Fulbeck Station, and we completed our operational our there just before Christmas 1944. Again short leave, end of tour leave, and we came back and the skipper went into the Flight Office, came out looking as though he had seen a ghost, because he said, “I have been posted to India”, and he was due to be married in Easter, but anyway he got a special leave and got married. So four of us, after a brief minutes think said, “well, we’ll come with you, skipper”. And eh, from there, then of course, it was a case of, I think we went to Morecombe I believe, for holding until we were ready to get on board the troop ship. The troop ship was the Union Castle Line, “Cape Town Castle” and the length of time on board I think would be about a month, or something like that, to India. I always remember I did a guard duty on there. Believe it or not, we had WAAFs on board so whether it was a case of keeping the aircrew from the WAAFS or the WAAFs from the aircrew, I don’t know. We were on parade, we were on guard rather, we’d take a number of lads round the ship, and on one, one of the guards that I was on, I had to take these chaps round and take them down below decks, and of course, it was dusk while I was doing this, and at dusk I believe on board these troop ships, all the doors are automatically closed. So in going down looking for this bloke and I had lost him, I was about quarter of an hour relieving him because I couldn’t find my way from this side to that side, I had to go up and round. Anyway I got, I found him and that was that. We docked at Bombay, Mumbai as it’s called now, and eh, from there, we went to Poona, Poona for a short while and in that time we were transferred to a place called Mahabulishma for a eh, eh, jungle training course, and they used to send us out with water bottle and rations and a map, and find your way back, sort of thing, and that was it. And eh, it was quite interesting that, because we did, I think, the last one we did was about two or three days out, we had to stay out and manage on what we got and of course, the day we went on that particular course, we were taken out on lorries and before breakfast, everybody had been into the local shop stocking up on whatever food they could get, hiding it so that the CO wouldn’t see it and then loading it on at the last minute, you know, off we went. Eh, and unfortunately, with some of the chaps, they got back a bit early, they got back a bit early and instead of staying out for the last night, they went back in, going into their own beds, you see. The CO, being a keen sort of bloke, went round next morning and rousted all these people out and said, “what you have brought back with you, that’s it for the day”, and he took them out and they had to go for another days walking back. Eh, anyway, when we had finished that we were posted then to Kola Airfield, eh, and then we were then converted onto the American B24, the Liberator Bomber, and eh, I was there, if I remember rightly, I was there on VJ day, no, no, beg your pardon, VE day, and eh, they put the airfield out of bounds because they thought maybe some bright spark would go up there and start one up and run it down the line with the other aircraft. All that, we had a bit of a booze up, but that is about all we did get then on VE day. And then we were posted to, from there, we would go to a Squadron which was 99 Squadron Dubalia, after riding across India on the railways, not the railways we got now [telephone ringing “excuse me”] 99 Squadron, yes the Pilot went on eh, eh, eh, another Operation with a different Crew, just to get him set in as it were, and then we did two Operations. The first one was somewhere down to, I believe it was Billing, near eh, now what was it, Rangoon I think in that area, which I think was supposed to be a, a, a Japanese transit camp but anyway. The second one was a ten thousand ton tanker in the area, which was supposed to be the largest tanker the Japanese had there and obviously if we could get that out of commission, that would do a big deal towards the ending of the War, because no petrol if they couldn’t get that sorted. Ah, it was the middle of the monsoon, bad weather all the way, I think we sent seven aircraft, four of which had to turn back due to bad weather and, and one thing and another. The other three got through and they were all damaged some way or another, either by weather or by anti-aircraft. In our case, we were damaged badly by anti-aircraft fire, in fact it took the starboard fin and rudder off. By a miracle we managed to keep flying and get back from the Gulf of Siam area to Burma, to Rangoon, Burma. Eh, we were on, on the last approach to landing and just at the last minute or so, it fell out, more or less fell out of the sky and unfortunately, the skipper was killed so that was the end of our flying as it, because shortly after that eh, the war ended. You know the, the Japs, the Yanks dropped the Atom Bombs and that was the end of fighting for everybody and from then on, which would be from 1945, June I think it was, June ‘45 from then on until ’47, March ’47, we were employed on any kind of job we were needed. We were virtually spare, all aircrew were virtually spare men after that, and I did work in a canteen liaison office in Calcutta. Eh, I then was transferred to Dumdum Airport, which I think is now the airport for Calcutta and eh, we were loading freight and mail onto various aircraft and all that kind of stuff. Then I from, before, shortly before I left there, I went to flying control recording landings and take offs and all that kind of stuff. Eh, I remember I was on duty, I think it was on, it would be the night, either the afternoon shift or the night shift, when the demob numbers came up and my number was among them. So that was it, next day, get your clearance chit, get around everybody, get a signature and on the eh, 15th of February, which was my birthday, I was on the bus down to eh, I think it was on the bus, I think it was to [unclear] station in Calcutta, to travel from there to eh, Bombay again to return home. In fact, the officer that I should have been working with passed me on the bus, and asked me what I was doing on the bus. “I said I’m going home, thank you very much Sir”. And then, as I say again, about a eh, months journey back again. I thought I was going to go on board the troop ship as a warrant officer, because they called me out as a warrant officer on parade, but when I got on board the ship, I was suddenly back down to sergeant again, I was remustered as a sergeant, so I didn’t get a cabin, I got a hammock down below somewhere. And eh, it was ok, but that was on the P & O Liner Moortan, one of the older liners. Very deep draught and it was quite reasonable that was, apart from the fact that the food was awful [laugh], I am not sure whether it was coming back from India or when we were going out. We went down for a midday meal and eh, we were served tripe and onions, that was the meal. Of course, it turned out it was also the meal for the afternoon meal. One thinks, you know, somebody here is doing alright out of in catering. I mean, If you take the fact that about three, I think it was about three thousand on board the Cape Town Castle, and some of them was coming back. Well, how many people, out of three thousand, would eat tripe and onions for a meal [laugh]. So you know, they would obviously not make all that up much anyway, and what was left was buckshee [laugh]. Anyway, we landed in Southampton and eh, this was in 1947. and eh, the country had been under a deep freeze and snow and everything all over the place, for several weeks and it had just started to thaw. So we managed to get up from there by train, to again somewhere on the East Coast of England, I can’t remember the name of the place, to be discharged, you know. I got me civvy suit and all the bits and pieces, and several, I remember we had to have a medical, and for some reason, I was, I had to go back and have a check-up several times. I don’t know what it was. Anyway they got rid of me, I must have been fit enough to have got rid of [laugh], and as I say I was back home. I managed to get as far as Nottingham on the train, I think it was. Well, all the local trains and the buses had finished then. So, remembering what my Dad had said about being in the Eighteen War, and getting back from Nottingham one time by cadging a lift on a GPO van, I went round to the side of the station, where the GPO place was, and the gentleman was good enough to give me a lift back to Mansfield. He dropped me on, on White Hart Street and I had about say ten minutes to quarter of an hours walk to get home, ‘cause it was chucking it down with rain and I had no great coat or mac, but I’d got my kit bag and all that I needed and I was home, that was it mate. Knocked my Mum and Sister up at about two o clock in the morning and tears all round, you know, that was it, I was back. After that, it was a case of trying, seeing my old boss eh, having a word with him, I didn’t go back to that job. For the next few years, I was in one job or another, on insurance, trying to be a travelling salesman and then I went onto a bakers round. I did delivery to shops on a bakers round and then I finally managed to get to work with a the local, one of the local water authorities, which later became incorporated in all the other water authorities. I worked there on a pumping station for about eight years, and then on in, in Mansfield, in an office with the water authority and finally, when Severn Trent took over, I finished my, I did thirteen years travelling to Nottingham, in the control room at Nottingham, before being retired one day before my 65th birthday. Well at least with the, with the holidays I had saved, one day before my 65th birthday. From then on, I have been enjoying a life of leisure, apart from working at home of course, the wife kept me busy on various things, altered the house quite considerably, so I have used my time fairly well. And a few years ago, my son, youngest son, got me involved with the 49 Squadron Association and the Lincolnshire Lancaster Association, so I have been involved with them up to the present time. Eh, hopefully I shall live a short while longer and enjoy the rest of my time.
MH. Good. Ok, I have been scribbling notes as you can see. Can I take you all the way back to when we commenced, eh, you were fourteen when you left school.
WC. Yeah
MH. What year would that have been?
WC. 1939, just prior to the war starting. That summer when the war started.
MH. Do you remember how or where you were when Neville Chamberlain made his famous statement on the 3rd of September?
WC. Off hand, no I, I was probably at work I suppose, because it was in the daytime I think, as I say, I was an errand lad and I was just learning whatever was needed doing on that particular day at work and that was my job to do it [laugh].
MH. Do you remember when you first heard that war had been declared?
WC. I can’t remember that, no I am afraid not, no.
MH. And did you have any Brothers, Sisters?
WC. Yeah I, I had an elder brother who was very nearly twenty years older than me, he’d been called up to the RAF, and he was on 106 Squadron Lancasters as a rigger. My sister was also on a Lancaster Squadron in the WAAFs before I got called up. So obviously, I was going to go on Lancasters some way or another. I went for aircrew selection and I think I might have been ok for pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, but I knew that if I went for that, I probably would not have got into the war, it would be over before I was trained. So after that, I didn’t know what would have happened if I had stayed in there, so if I go for gunner, at least then I shall be in and six months training and I shall be a sergeant. Again, cash played a role in it, although we weren’t paid handsomely, I think we got, I think we got seven shillings a day as a sergeant, plus a shilling a day flying pay [laugh], that’s five pence now.
MH. Forty pence a day, crazy. Were you influenced at all by your brother and sister and the service they were in?
WC. Oh yes, obviously they were in the RAF, so I decided more than anything else going in the RAF. I always wanted to fly from a lad, you know, you get these urges to be up in the air. I didn’t think somehow that I would be able to be a pilot, navigator, I might have been, but I thought well, I can do the other I am sure, so I’ll be a gunner.
MH. You did some training at Bridlington and Bridgenorth, and then you went air gunner training in Northern Ireland.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Can you describe the conditions overall, where you slept em, and your food and that sort of thing?
WC. Well, it rained a fair bit in Northern Ireland, which it usually does [laugh], generally speaking, it wasn’t, I didn’t think it was too bad although I was taken ill while I was training there. I had two in hospital or at least off sick, and that changed the course that I was on. I was put back two weeks and that’s when the chap that I was already picked out to fly with carried on, on his course and I followed on a fortnight later, you see. But eh, all in all, it wasn’t too bad, I didn’t think, there, it seemed to be ok, you know.
MH. And the food was ok?
WC. Food was reasonable, yeah, yeah.
MH. ‘Cause rationing was in heavily wasn’t it.
WC. Oh yeah, rationing, yeah, as far as food’s concerned, against the civilian diet, it was as good as some, better in some ways, you know, all through, until we got to India, all through, the foods been quite reasonable I thought, myself, in the services.
MH. You were able to maintain your weight?
WC. Oh yeah, in fact, I put on some, I was a lad when joined up, I was more of a man when I got through it all.
MH. You would be the first person in military history to put weight on. OK, so you came out top of your course in ’44, and you then got sent to the OTU at Upper Hayford.
WC. Yeah.
MC. Do you remember what aircraft you were on at that time.
WC. Wellingtons, on Wellingtons, Ansons on the air gunner, Wellingtons on the OTU.
MH. How would you describe them. How would you, you know, describe them as far as aircraft go?
WC. It was, I reckon it was a good aircraft, the Wellington, very good. There is only one thing that I found with that eh, I don’t know what happened with the design but we used to do air firing to a drogue, we used to tow a drogue behind, and you had to feed this drogue out through the middle, a hole in the floor, half way up the aircraft. And you let it out, no, no, I beg your pardon, no, not a drogue, no, no, when you had been flying about two hours, you had to pump oil from one tank into the engine tank. The pump was located in the middle of the aircraft. The only snag was, there wasn’t an oxygen point at the middle of the aircraft. So when you went down there, you pumped for a while and then went back and had a few breaths of oxygen [laugh], and then went back and pumped a bit more. I don’t know how it, it come about, it was just a fault, a tiny fault really, but important if you were doing the pumping but other than that, I thought that the Wellington was a fine aircraft.
MH. And within the Wellington, the basic design, they have a front turret and a rear turret, but on the odd occasion, did they have any other weapons?
WC. Well I was never involved in anywhere there were other weapons, but I believe, I’m not sure, I believe possibly there was a fitting half way through the side window, but I never saw that in operation at all.
MH. Being an air gunner, how did you find the turrets, were they restricting?
WC. No, they were reason, being sort of small, I fitted in quite well, you know. They were ok, there was no problem as far as I was concerned for room, they were a bit draughty occasionally, of course, but apart from that, I was always, I was always comfortable in the turrets on the Wellington and the Lancaster. But the mid upper turret on a Lancaster, the Halifax was the same, the seat was a block of rubber on a, on a hanger, on a sort of canvas strap. You got in and you pulled it underneath, and you hung it on the other side, and that’s where you sat for the next four, five, six hours or seven, whatever it was the length of the trip. But it was ok, I was ok with it.
MH. For those not in the know, can you take us through and what you would have done upon entry into the aircraft, like your pre-flight check as far as a gunner would go, what would you have to do?
WC. Well eh, both the rear gunner and myself, we had to go into the turret, check the guns, make sure the fire and safety switch on each one was in the right position, safe to take off. When you were airborne, on an operation, put them onto fire so that you were ready. Check the sights, all those kind of thing like that, make sure you could see round the turret, operate the turret controls, make sure everything worked ok. And a far on a Lancaster, the mid upper gunner, before he got into his turret, actually had to check, there was a compass, a compass that hung, I can’t remember what, what the kind of compass it was, but it was hung just inside the door of the Lancaster if I remember rightly, and we used to have to check that, call it back to the pilot and the navigator to see that they tallied, they were all tallying the same reading, you see. That was about it, then, as far as, as far as the gunners were concerned. Of course, the others up the front end, they had their own checks to do.
MH. Did you come across any problems at any time?
WC. Not, well, again the only problem I had, we were doing a DI you know, Daily Inspection, and I was checking the front turret and there is a pin which fits in so that you can actually loosen the guns to move them around to do the delivery, and I dropped one of these pins, and it fell down on the, and it took me quite while to, ‘cause it’s just a little cotter pin that fits in, you fitted it in, put it in and that was it, and it took me quite a while to find that, but other than that, that was about it, it was quite ok. Can’t think of anything else, we had a period on the Lancaster when we were introduced to this new radar turret, it was highly secret and according to what the boffins told us, if ,even in ,in tenth tenth clouds shall we say, if you have got an enemy aircraft and got it sighted correctly, you could guarantee seventy, sixty percent hits even without seeing the targets. It was good and that was it, you know. We trained on that and I don’t think it lasted long, I don’t know why but you know, I don’t think that, for some reason, it was, I don’t know whether it was never used for any time, I don’t know. I really, as I say, we didn’t use it as such, we nearly did but [laugh] very nearly did.
MH. Would you like to take the listeners through the time that the Mosquito decided to follow you.
WC. Ah, yeah, well that is the time when we nearly used it. We were flying in cloud, and the rear gunner picked up various Lancasters giving the code back and then he picked up a signal that didn’t give any recognition signal so he said. “it’s coming in, I can see it’s so far”, and I think the wireless operator read out the range to him, you know. He said, “I’ll give it a bit longer”, and we kept going, and I said to the skipper. “better corkscrew, skipper, and see if we can lose him that way”, but this particular aircraft followed us down in a corkscrew, which he shouldn’t have done if it was an RAF one. But, as I say, he wasn’t giving a signal, and I said, “well, this is it, looks like this is it, you know”. The rear gunner said, “well, I’ll give him another few seconds”, he said, “and then I’m going to open fire”, and in those few seconds, we all came out of the cloud, and I looked at the aircraft, and it was an RAF Mosquito, and I said, “for Christ sake, don’t shoot”, you know, or somebody will be in trouble. Anyway he must have seen us at the same time so he broke away and that was it. But that was the only time we were nearly in trouble [laugh]
MH. You were saying to me earlier regarding the use of your guns.
WC. Yeah, we never did, not on the first set of operations. No we didn’t, we were lucky we didn’t get picked up by any German fighters, and we didn’t have any incidents where we were close enough to fire at anything on the ground, would have been a waste of time. Beside of which, we were carrying tracer bullets in the rounds, so we would have given our position away pretty sharpish. So, we counted ourselves being lucky we got away without any problems. We did the full tour and that was it.
MH. You mentioned tracers erm, for those not in the know.
WC. Yeah.
MH. What would have been the make up, and how would they have fitted in with the rounds that you were firing?
WC. If I can remember, it was a group of five, there was one tracer. one incendiary eh, no, no, yeah, one tracer, one incendiary, one armour piercing and the other two would be general purpose, the ordinary bullet, you know. So as I say, you got the tracer every fifth round and it, it would show up fairly well and as I say, it would show up where you were as well, that was the only trouble [laugh]. I don’t think we had that eh, eh, amount of tracer wouldn’t have altered it all as far as I can remember. We didn’t load the guns, the armourers did that for us, you know, and as I say, we didn’t fire them anyway so we were ok. Other than air to air firing, if there was somebody towing a drogue and we sign like that. But I know when we used to do this Village Inn training, we used to do some camera gun tests, and the result when we saw it on the screen, it was remarkable. On an ordinary camera gun exercise, without this Village Inn, the sight would be wandering about fairly well. On that it wandered straight on and that was it, it stayed on pretty well, just floated about a little bit, not bad, not much. So it would have guaranteed some good, good results.
MH. So you went to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe
WC. Yeah
MH. And then onto the Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston, which always tickles me.
WC. Yeah.
MH. A finishing school for the Lancasters.
WC. Yeah.
MH. I will take you back to St Johns Wood if I may just briefly, em, how did you and your skipper, how did you all come to meet up?
WC. Well we met up at Upper Heyford at the OTU there, and it has been said in lots of ways and lots of programmes, it was a kind of haphazard kind of setting up. You all met in the Squadron, in the sergeants mess I think it was, and you went round, or in a hanger somewhere, and you went round, “do you need a couple of gunners, skipper?” or do you need, you know, and that was how you met. You picked up, we tried with a couple of other, I think Australian, we tried to Crew up, but they were already Crewed up, you see, and then we came across our own Skipper, Jack Parkin, he was a Flight Sergeant then, he had been flying, I think, on a Gunnery School, Ansons on a Gunnery School. Anyway we, that’s how you met up, we met him and he’d already got a navigator and a bomb aimer or something, and we finally got the crew of six before you got the flight engineer. The flight engineer joined at the Heavy Conversion Unit when you went on to four engines.
MH. Right, ok, so you eventually got posted to a Squadron.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And now you are all together.
WC. Yeah.
MH. All seven having all completed and everything having gone LFS. Eh, what can you tell us regarding the missions, the type of missions that you had, where they went em, bomb loads, that sort of thing?
WC. Well the first one was just over eight hours to that French railway depot, Gefores I think it was, eh, so that was, I can’t remember actually the details of the various trips, but eh, have you got that list?
MH. Yes.
WC. Yeah, got that.
MH. And got your log book there if you wanted to refer to it.
WC. Yes, if you wanted to, that gives you the exact ones. We landed away from our own drome on two occasions, one was to a eh, I think it was another Lancaster Squadron at Burn in Yorkshire, and the other was Horsham St Faith, the American Base flying Liberators. We rather shook them up a bit when we told them what bomber we had landed with and what we had dropped, especially next day when we opened the bomb doors and showed them what a bomb bay looked like [laugh]. Eh, well apart from that we, we were pretty ok, you know. We went, we came back, we were lucky, we didn’t encounter any fighters or anything like that, so it was ok.
MH. Did you see any other aircraft when you were on a mission coming to grief?
WC. Oh on occasions, yes we did see occasions, I can’t remember again which trips, but you we, we, I think we, in fact I think it was on the first day light they did, the just, all the Lancasters were on a daylight, probably about two hundred or so, and they had been on night trips. Well on a night trip, you each went your own individual way. What was happening on this day light, they were all flying the same way on odd heights and odd courses. And I saw one Lancaster release its bomb load and there was another one underneath, and it went straight through the wing and that was it, so that was seven men down. I can’t remember seeing anyone getting out of it because it just went down. Anyway, we did see one or two aircraft come to grief with flak or fight. Well I don’t know if it were flak or fighters, they were in flame generally and eh -
MH. So how did you feel at that time, how did that make you feel in seeing that? Because I couldn’t imagine that, and I’m sure the listeners can’t imagine seeing that side.
WC. Yeah.
MH. How did you feel personally and how, in any way, did that affect you.
WC. Well if I said it bothered me a great deal, I would probably be right. It did upset me of course, but you were doing a job, and you got to keep your eyes on what you were doing. You could not give too much thoughts to the other people unfortunately. I mean, it sounds a bit horrible that, but this is it, you know, you have a job to do and you, generally speaking on these trips, you had to concentrate all the time. Especially at night, because, you know, you were staring into darkness and you are trying to look for other aircraft, and find out anything you can about what’s going on. So you didn’t have much time to worry about other aircraft, other than when you saw something, that was it.
MH. When you were in the bomb stream, on a night time, how, how did you feel the presence of another aircraft, how did affect how you?
WC. You got the turbulence, you know, you. would be flying along, fairly straight and level, then suddenly, it would be, that meant that you had crossed the turbulence from another, the slipstream of another aircraft. You know you would probably be weaving slightly like this, and you just hit one of those and you knew that somewhere up front, there was another Lancaster. So you had to be even more aware then, because they were damned near as dangerous as what the fighters were. If you were in, I mean, you didn’t stand a chance if you did collide with one, that was it.
MH. Fulbeck, Christmas ’44.
WC. Christmas ’44.
MH. End of tour.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Any high jinks went on?
WC. Actually we were flopping away, although we were finished, we had a drink, we took the ground crew down to the local, Leadenham I think it is, I can’t remember the name of the place, just from Fulbeck. But as I think I said, I had volunteered to go with the skipper and we started having injections for getting ready. So we went, of course, to have a drink of beer, on an injection you knew you had it, matey [laugh]. I, I vaguely remember I had a girlfriend, I think, on that Squadron, a WAAF, and she more or less had to support me all the way back to the Squadron. I hadn’t had much to drink really but eh. Then that was it, when we cleared the Squadron, we went to, where did we go from there? I think that was Morecombe, I think from there, and then wait until the troop dhip was ready. We spent about a week or more in Liverpool docks, because for one reason or another, they couldn’t get the, we couldn’t make up the convoy. I remember actually the day we were moving out of the dock, the captain of the ship ordered everybody away from the rails, get away from, because what was happening, you see, everybody was looking over the rails, several hundred, probably a thousand people on one side, and it was tending to. It only had a narrow gap to get through, so instead of going through straight, he was going through at a slight angle, it would have scaped his paint, so he said, “everybody away from the rails”. But that was, that, I think about it and laugh every time, I stood a guard duty on board a troop ship. There weren’t many chances for the SS to catch us there, you know, in the middle of the ocean, not really [laugh].
MH. So you land in India.
WC. Yeah.
MH. What were your first thoughts about India, it must have been completely different to Mansfield.
WC. Yeah.
MH. What were your first thoughts when you got to India?
MC. Well they talk about the mystic East, in my impression it was the mystic, where the smells were coming from. It was, it was hot and it was a bit smelly, you got used to it after a while, and of course, you got to watch out for everything you got in India. You got the Delhi Belly as it is sometimes called, and then you got any kind of skin infection that was floating around at the time. Prickly heat, boils, tinia, all these things, all due, all due to the sweat on your uniform irritating your skin, you see. And eh, you could get things for some of those. If you got tinia, which is a rash in the private parts and that’s putting it politely, well the treatment was Whitfields, either Whitfields ointment or Whitfields lotion, which is, I think Whitfields lotion is surgical spirits with a max salts, Epsom salts or something like that in it, you know, and the ointment is just vaseline with this stuff. Well Vaseline and, and that is not too bad, it stings a bit, but the, the lotion, it stings a bit sharpish [laugh]. A friend of mine got it and he said, “they have given me this from the sick bay and I’ve got to bath it with this, you see”. I said, “be very careful, don’t, don’t be too liberal with it because it stings. I have had the ointment on mine and I know that’s a wake up call anytime”. He put it on, dabbed it on - Ohhh! - It suddenly hit him what he’d done and he was very cautious from then on, very cautious. There was a, I remember in one of the magazines that the services used to send out, there was a joke in there, and it was a picture of the CO sitting at his desk, and there was a recruit fresh out from England in a uni, you know, different type, almost different type of uniform, and he said, of the medical officer, that was it, where he was going. He said, “I’ve got prickly heat sir”, and, and you know, and under, underneath him like “Prickly Heat!” and the CO and the MO were absolutely covered in these spots. Printed with an explanation mark “Prickly Heat!” [laugh]. It could be a very irritating thing that, you know, you just came out in spots, little red spots all over you. It wasn’t dangerous or really, it was very uncomfortable at times, you would be sitting there, then -OH! - it was just like somebody sticking a pin in and as I say, it could be uncomfortable.
MH. Did you suffer anything else in India?
WC. Yes I did. After the crash we had, when we got back up to Calcutta to the Squadron, then back down to Calcutta, we had to go through various medicals after a crash, you know, you were checked up and everything, and I went to the eh, the other Gunner went in and he was ok, they checked him out alright. The MO took my temperature and pulse, he says, “are you feeling ok?” I said, “I’m fine thanks”. He said, “well, there is something wrong, come back tomorrow”. So I went back the next day and same thing again. He said “there is definitely something”, he says, “come back again tomorrow”. Next day, I didn’t go back to him, I went to sick quarters. I got Denghi Fever and it hit me then. It’s very similar to Malaria, they only way they can tell is by a blood test, and if it’s Malaria if not, it’s Denghi Fever. I had a fortnight, I think it was a fortnight, in hospital then, and part of the time, I’m not sure what was going on or anything, you get a bit delirious, you know, it’s a fever and is spread again by a Mosquito, just the same as Malaria. The time I came out of that, the rest of the crew had also come to Calcutta, and the second pilot had been posted home sick. The other gunner, he had been moved to somewhere, he had been posted away and that was it. I was on my own then in the Transit Camp for a couple of months or so more before the wireless operator, who had been injured in the crash, actually came up from Rangoon and I met him then. And from then on, we spent time together, more time actually, as odd job men as you might say, than we did as Crew.
MH. I want to get, if possible, your impression of the Avro Lancaster as an aircraft, be honest, and then the B24 Liberator and be honest.
WC. This won’t get me thrown out will it?
MH. No, it won’t.
WC. Well the Lancaster was the four engined bomber in my opinion, I believe the Halifax was just as good but, of course, more was made of the Lancaster, the Dambusters and all these kind of raids, and that special 617 Squadron made it a well known and well thought of aircraft. It was very good, there was no doubt about that. As I say, I never flew the Halifax, but I think that was equally as good. And as I say, don’t make too much of it but I think the B24 Liberator, in my opinion, because there is no doubt it saved my life, that it was almost as good as the Lancaster. Designed for a different area of combat. The Lancaster was designed to go three or four hours out and three or four hours back and carry a bigger load because it was lightly armed as well. The Liberator, the same, as the American idea was we will go in and fight our way in and fight our way back. It didn’t work actually, that didn’t, but nevertheless it was designed with that idea and for use over the Pacific on long range jobs. [pause while the telephone is answered].
MH. So in your impression, B24 was a good aircraft?
WC. A very good aircraft, yes, no doubt about it.
MH. But the Lancaster would be your pick of the two?
WC. Ah, yeah, well as I say, they were designed with different aims and you can’t, you can compare them but you can’t compare them as to what one would do against another. Not really, because they were designed for a different purpose. Long range, far more long range is the Liberator, the B24, otherwise it was a good aircraft.
MH. Comfort wise, though, on operations.
WC. Well yeah, yeah, they were reasonable you know. Having said that, on a, on a Lancaster, when you went on an operation, you got a flask of coffee, sandwiches, bars of chocolate and chewing gum. The two trips we did out in India on a Liberator, it was take your water bottle and here’s a K Ration. So, again, that was not due to anything other than the, the area you were in, you know, there was no doubt about that. The Far East didn’t get the same treatment as the European war got. It was definitely a forgotten War in some respects.
MH. For a Layman like myself, can you describe your flying kit for a European operation.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And then your flying kit in India
WC. Well for a, a, an operation in England, you were issued with long johns and long sleeved vests to start with and your shirt, no collar and tie because of the possibility that if you ditched, you could get strangled with it. Then your battle dress, and then on that we, I used to have a, a an electric inner suit and a padded brown outer suit, gauntlets, helmet, goggles, oxygen mask and eh, that was about it, as I say, your sandwiches and everything were already on. On the Far East you didn’t need that kind of thing, of course your parachute etc and may west of course, but that in the Far East, it was just shorts, KD because you were warm enough, you see. KD and eh, parachute and may west again, and that was it, you know. It was, it was perfectly ok because we didn’t fly to any height that would be cold any way, you know. We were ok.
MH. I will briefly take you back to your second operation, but I am not going to dwell on it as we spoke before.
WC. Yeah.
MH. You were after this ten thousand tanker.
WC. Yeah.
MH. I think we have the name of it here, Er, “Toho Maroo”, ten thousand tons.
WC. Yeah.
MC. And then got later sunk.
WC. Yeah.
MC. So she did eventually get sunk?
WC. Yeah, she did eventually get sunk, yeah.
MH. So you set off in heavy rain, monsoon.
WC. Monsoon.
MH. Four aircraft had come back.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And the three of you continued.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Independently or in a flight?
WC. Independently, because the weather was so bad, you couldn’t fly together, it wouldn’t have been safe, I don’t think, but in any case, we were all individually sent you see.
MH. And then, could or couldn’t see the target, couldn’t find the target?
WC. Well we found the target, yeah, and in fact, as we were running up towards the target, we could see that there was a Lancaster, eh Lancaster, a Liberator just flying away from it. I don’t know if he had tried to do a successful bombing run or not, but he tried to get away from it and eh, then as I say, we went in, well we were a sitting target really, the, the Destroyer just sat there and waited till we got there and wallop, and that was it.
MH. So the tanker was being escorted at the time.
WC. Escorted yes, by a Japanese destroyer, yeah.
MH. It was that, that caused the ack ack.
WC. Yeah, yeah, I can’t remember, I don’t, I don’t know whether I blacked out or what, but the actually bracketing of the anti-aircraft fire, our aircraft was all over the place. I don’t know whether it, what happened as I say, and for a few, maybe half a minute in there, I had no idea what was, what was happening, and then we started flying level. Well up the front, I couldn’t see anything of the back, what the aircraft was like at the back, but we were flying something like reasonable. I saw that my intercom had gone, would, would do anyway that, I thought that I’m no good here, I can’t sit as a no, nothing in front, no way I can be of any use, so I will get out and see what’s happening. So I centred the turret, unlocked the doors, turned round and got out the turret, and as I say, there should have been two men there, instead of which the bomb, the nose wheel doors were open and nobody was there so it was a bit worrying for a second or two, but I could see that the pilots were still there. So I got out and reported to the skipper what had happened up front, and then went back, then I found out that the bombs were in a mess so we could jettison some but there was just this one. It was sort of hanging like that, you know, instead of being right and it wouldn’t jettison, so I just had to get rid of it by unscrewing the whole fixture, it was only about, it was only about so big. But four bolts you know, just had to get them off and then had to get these bolts away from the thing and let it drop. It. It went eventually, thank God [laugh].
MH. When you came out of your turret, who did you expect to find there?
WC. I should have been two men there, there should have been the navigator and the bomb aimer there.
MH. But there was nobody.
WC. There was nobody.
MH. Great, and then you could what, see the feet of the two pilots?
WC. Yeah, you could look back up the aircraft and you see the feet. Not far, but you could see, I think it went underneath them in the middle and you could get by. But you could just see the feet on the flight deck you see.
MH. I think you mentioned to me earlier that having gone back towards the bomb bay and everything, that at that point, you were able to see the damage that had been caused.
WC. No I didn’t know, I didn’t know, I knew there had been some damage, but I didn’t know what it was at all. I knew actually, I knew once I got to the bomb bay, because there were two long range fuel tanks should have been in the bomb bay, in the first part of the bomb bay, and they had gone. I think when the ack ack hit us and we were thrown about, they must have broken loose and fell away. Anyway I thought, that’s it, you know, we are obviously now not too well off for fuel but we are flying. So I went back and had a look, got rid of the bombs, eventually and that’s why I went back, and the rear gunner said, “look out there” [laugh], and it wasn’t there.
MH. So for clarification for persons listening, Mr Cooke has gone back to the rear of the aircraft eh, the rear, turret, gunner has pointed out there, the starboard fin and rudder had gone. Totally.
WC. Totally, just as if it would have chopped off or taken a hack saw, it was as clean as a whistle.
MH. So you were down to a crew of how many at that point ?
WC. One, two, three, four, five, six I think it was. One, two, three, four, yes, six.
MH. So six persons are still on board.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Your skipper has decided to keep going.
WC. Keep going, get back home.
MH. Even with the loss of fuel.
WC. Yeah
MH. And you are flying from the Gulf of Siam.
WC. Yeah.
MH. To Rangoon.
WC. Rangoon in Burma, yes.
MH. Would you like to say what happened in Rangoon or not?
WC. Well, yeah, no problem, as I said we, we, we hadn’t, again with the navigator going, we hadn’t got any maps. It was just keep going until you find somewhere, you know, and we found the Irrawaddy Delta I think it’s called, the river that runs down through Burma, and we found a way, we found Rangoon. We came in to try and land at Rangoon, and the ground control says, ”you shouldn’t land here because it is not a fight, it’s not a bomber airfield, you can’t land here it’s not a bomb”, etc. Eh, I mean, a bit of a daft thing to say when you saw the state we were in. Anyway we carried on, we made, I think, one circuit, and on the second circuit, we were coming and in, now whether then the skipper applied flaps and undercarriage down, and that altered the flight characteristics or what I don’t know, but we were going round, and I suddenly heard the engines rev up full power and we went straight in – wallop - and that was it, and the aircraft itself broke into, broke up roughly where we were in the middle, and the eh, you know. One engine was still running, the prop had sheared off and it was still going full belt. The second pilot said, “I switched it off and it stopped”, [laugh] anyway I didn’t realise then that the skipper had, I went up front, got out went up front, “are you ok?” I’ll go and get, I can see some lights, I’ll go and get help. So I set off across this Paddy Field, they tell me it was six foot deep in places, I don’t think that was right, but anyway I was well muddied up with the paddy field. Got to what was an ambulance and I said, “I’ll take you back”. They said, “No, no you stop here, we’ll find it, it’s ok”, and I was then, I just got out of my uniform because it was stinking mud, anyway got rid of that, and then we just waited until the second pilot and the other gunner, he was just behind me, we were on board and I think the flight engineer too, I can’t remember, I can’t remember that chappie, I didn’t know, the one we picked up on Squadron, you see. And anyway from there, when we were unloaded, we went off to the hospital and they got us into the hospital and got us a bed and got me some pyjamas. I don’t know, I think Butch got some pyjamas as well, I am not sure, but anyway they said, “right, get into bed and then take this tablet, don’t take it until you get into bed”, which I did. I took the tablet and that is the last thing I remember until the next day [laugh], It worked efficiently, it knocked me out like a punch up the hooter. And then, the next day, when we were more or less able to get about, you know, they brought the wireless operator in. Of course the two, the flight engineer and the second pilot were flying officers, so they went to a different place than we did and eh, they eh, as I say, the wireless operator came in and I asked him how the skipper was, and he said, “he’s dead”. That shook me up quite a bit, but then we were there for a couple or three days, and they managed to get the wireless operator to start drinking and eating, because they said if he doesn’t he will have to be put on a drip. We got him working and then probably the next day after that, when we got him back to something like a normal carry on, we were shifted to, out of the hospital to a sick quarters, and eh, down step on shall we say, because we did have a bed in the hospital, when we got to the sick quarters, we got a stretcher on the floor with a bit of a mossie net over the top. Again neither of us had anything to cope with, so we were in a room with an Army bloke, Army private I think he was. So when he went for his a meal, he said can we borrow your tackle. I think we had a plate and a mess tin and a knife and fork between us, two of us and we were there for another two or three days, I can’t remember when, but the second pilot came in there and said, “get writing back to your Mum”, he says, “or they will be getting word that you have been injured”, you know. We did that and then from there I say we, I got this uniform, they got me a uniform, in fact we all got one. The second pilot had gone into the stores officer for something and said we need some uniforms for these two, and eh, I think there was about six uniforms in the stores ah, eh, eh green, eh forest green, a dark green anyway, and they were all the same size. The second pilot, I think he was about five ten or six foot so you can imagine what mine looked like. I got, I got a local, local dirty wallah, a tailor bloke came along, and he took it and measured me and I could get it, I could wear it the next day but eh, the waist sort of was here and sort of went out like that [laugh], and he didn’t know much about stripes and crowns, so I got three stripes, they went sort of like that and a little bit less and a little bit less, and the crown on top of that. It made virtually a diamond on my arm, you know, but I got them and I had no hat so as I say, we flew back with that kind of uniform, best we could get. They took us, they took us up to the Squadron and we got kit from the squadron, they sent us down to a transit camp then in Calcutta, and I have got that entry from the CO in the log book. And eh, from then, that’s when I was taken ill when we were doing this medical after the crash, and when I came out of hospital, I was on my todd, there was nobody and I spent some time in that Transit Camp doing nothing, just virtually doing nothing. The local, as far as I can remember it, the local eh, Indian Officers clubs and various things, you know, they would send around an invitation for twenty or thirty men to go and use their swimming baths and have tea and that. You were on your best behaviour no, eh, it was very nice, no eh, I am not mocking it, it was ok, but it was still definitely them and us, you know what I mean, but it was ok [pause to answer telephone]
MH. We will just pause for a second.
MH. So you were then in a Transit Camp.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And then?
WC. Yeah, I was coming up for Warrant Officer at the time, you know, in aircrew, you were sergeant for a year, if you lived, you were flight sergeant after a year, and if you lived again, you were a warrant officer after another year. So I was coming up for warrant officer, I went to see the adjutant I suppose, asked about it, “very well”, he said, “we can’t promote you if you are not doing any specific work”. So I got a job in this canteen liaison office in Calcutta. I went down there and we were sending parcels back for the lads, they’d come in with a chitty and pay the cash, and we, they’d buy something in town and we’d make it up, we had a tailor on running, and he would make it up, sew it up, stick the labels on and then sent it back, and we would supervise all that, you see and eh, and eh, as I say, I spent a while doing that. Then I was, I was shovelled onto another officer who was doing actually canteen liaison, that was it, he was working out the beer and liquor rations for the various stations in the Calcutta area. He got demobbed and he went off sharpish, and I was left doing that for while and then as I say, they came round looking for odd bods not doing important work and they got posted to Dumdum, and I was working on freight mail there, working on loading aircraft, that was ok and eh -
MH. How about your apprentice loader?
WC. Aye.
MH. Your apprentice loader and what happened.
WC. Yeah, yeah, he was a new starter on the, on the, he was one of the, I won’t say coolies, he was one of the Native Bearers we used to call them I think, and eh, we got this load to put on a Dakota and we backed up to the Dakota, and we were going very merrily and chucking the parcels off and chucking them on the aircraft. Well he grabbed a parcel that he thought was a parcel and chucked it up the aircraft, but it was a dinghy and of course, doing that triggered off the CO2 bottle, and the dinghy went up like, almost like a miniature bomb inside the aircraft and eh, the next thing, I looked up the runway and this lad was going like the clappers up the runway. But we fetched him back and I explained it to the officer in charge of that loading area, aircraft and he said, “ok”, he could barely keep a straight face. He said, “ok”, he says, “we’ll let him off”, he says, “get him back to work and it will be ok”.
MH. Your time in India and your time at Dumdum airport wasn’t the only incident you had. You had one particular, one on the Lancaster I believe, on the FIDO trip?
WC. Oh, that was on 49 Squadron that was, yeah, yeah. It was eh, an ordinary trip as far as I can remember, I can’t remember where it was supposed to be, anyway we went out to our aircraft, got on board and everything checked out or seemed to be, then we got a mag drop on one engine, a very big one, and they couldn’t fix it so that was it. The CO said, “get onto the standby aircraft and take that one”. So we get onto that and all this takes a fair bit of time, you know, so we gets on, checks up again, and by now the bulk of the other aircraft had now taken off. So we gets into the line, last in the line of course, and as we gets up to the runway, we see that there is a Lancaster, burst tyre, right at the end of the take off runway, which means we had to go up to the next junction runway, come back on that and down the runway and turn at the bottom and then take off. All the others went and we were called to the runway and nipping along at a fair pace, you know, And eh, as I say, that is when the skipper said words to the effect of, “oh dear, oh dear, we haven’t got any brake pressure”, and the only thing he could do was to rev up engines on one side to turn the aircraft that way, and run half off the runway, onto the grass and over the FIDO pipes, which eventually stopped us. There were three, I think they were about inch and a half diameter pipes on a, sat on a triangle you know, they went, they got two nice marks where the wheels went, and that was it. But as I say, we thought this is it, we’re ok now, we’ve had our crisis, tried to take off but we couldn’t hack it, but we should be alright. We got off and the CO was asking what had happened and all that, and another officer came up and said, “if we get permission, to take off straight away and fly direct, it could just about get there for the rest of them”, you see, and that’s where I suddenly, nearly, kneed a no, no area [laugh], I think it was one of the most frightening times that was, those few minutes but the CO, he knew what he was on about and he said, “no way”, and that were it, we got away with it. But I can still think back to that, if you send them direct, Oh my God [laugh].
MH. How much damage did you do to the spare aircraft, the standby aircraft, how much damage was done to it?
WC. Well it was, it, it wasn’t any as far as I remember, it wasn’t any real damage. The brake pressure had gone and it had just spun it off and the FIDO pipes actually stopped it. It went over it and it had stopped any momentum on the grass, and I don’t think there was any real damage other than the loss of brake pressure.
MH. So we come to demob.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Fifteenth of February 1947.
WC. Yeah, it was March by the time we got in and it was the end of the very bad winters frost and snow, it had started to melt and there were floods all over. Is one ok, not far off. And eh, and as I say, I managed to get back by train to Nottingham but there were no more trains or buses into Mansfield from there, so I cadged a lift on a GPO van. He dropped me in Mansfield about ten minutes, quarter of an hour from home. It was throwing it down with rain, but I was home and that was it mate [laugh].
MH. You said that you were greeted by your Mum and your Sister.
WC. Yeah
MH. What happened to your elder Brother.
WC. Well he was married, of course, I think he was demobbed by then, but he was at home obviously, you see.
MH. So he had beaten you out of demob then?
WC. Oh yeah, yeah, he was in before me and out before me.
MH. Was your Sister still in the WAAFS at that time.
WC. No, no actually she got pregnant and she got out of the WAAFS, you know, and she had a very bad time of it too. But anyway, she survived that and as I say, by then she got these arrangements made to go to America.
MH. And 49 Association.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Going strong
WC. Yeah.
MH. How long have you been in it?
WC. I would say, I would say at least five years I think, I think Steve got us in about the turn of the century, something like that, and we had a, a reunion and it was at Woodhall Spa. Can’t remember the name of the hotel, but this hotel during the war was the officers mess for 617 Squadron.
MH. The Petwood.
WC. The Petwood that was it, yeah, that’s it, and we had the reunion there and we went to the memorial on the November. We didn’t get into the, the reunions after that for a while for some reason, well the wife has not been too well as I say, being diabetic, and her eyes are now beginning to go so she really needs somebody to set the things up for her, you see. But eh, we did, we did get to this last years reunion, just overnight and she went into one of the local care centres in town and stayed there and eh, as I say, we went and had a reunion, quite nice too. A fair number turned up, you know, and then the memorial, on memorial Sunday, we go to Fiskerton church and then we go up to the airfield and lay a wreath, we have had a fly past there too. The Lancaster, you know, comes and sees us.
MH. Could I ask you finally then, for your opinions of how Bomber Command is thought of, how you think it is portrayed to the public of today erm, and what you see as Bomber Commands legacy from the war as such?
WC. Well I didn’t realise it when I came back from India, but there was a bad time when the, you know, we were not all that popular it, it didn’t fit with the politicians what we had been doing. But I think now it is generally turning round, they are beginning to realise just what was been done by Bomber Command and how useful it was, because they were the only branch of the forces that could actually fight the Germans all the time, they were going all the time you see. I think eh, nowadays they are still a good deterent, I think, I think you know we can, they do well for what they are doing. Eh, I think the general public has a better regard for Bomber Command now than it did some years ago. It went through that bad spell you know, when everybody thought that we were naughty boys, bombing like the Germans did and all that. They are getting now to think that they did a damn good job and that’s it. So I think it is getting, getting a better publicity now shall we say, better rating shall we say. I hope that there is not any chance that they might have to do what we did then. I don’t think it will come to that because, anyway, anyone with common sense can see if, if it comes to that where there is a worldwide, there won’t be any world. It’ll, It’ll be done if they every use the nuclear weapons, it only needs one to use them and I am afraid we shan’t be able to stop it. We will have to, we will have to retaliate whether we want to or not and unfortunately everybody will have to retaliate and it will be all over. Which is as long as the politicians keep this in the back of their minds, it’s a good thing, it’s a good thing because I shouldn’t think anyone will be daft enough, I would have thought, to let it go that far.
MH. So is there anything else you would like to add, is there anything else you would like to say in relation to your time in Bomber Command and subsequently -
WC. Other than since I have been out, I have had one or two rough spells but ok, I am doing nicely now thank you very much, and this retirement job is the best one I have had [laugh] and it’s the longest one too and the rest of the time, it’s been a few years here and a few years there or move to somewhere else in the same industry, you know. And this No. 8 Little Barn is the best place I’ve been working with [laughs].
MH. Thank you very much.
WC. You’re welcome.
MH. Erm, Mr Cooke, this afternoon, been a privilege. It’s been a great pleasure to meet you and your Son. I’m going to stop the tape, if something comes to mind, we can add it on. I’m going to stop the tape now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Cooke
Creator
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Mark Hunt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-02
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookeWH150902
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Format
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01:30:24 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
William Cooke joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18, becoming a rear gunner on Lancasters. He followed his brother and sister into the RAF.
Tells of his spell of guard duty on board a troop ship, and losing one of the people he was showing around.
William was based at 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe, then No. 5 Lancaster Finishing School in Syerston, and then on 49 Squadron, as a rear gunner on Lancasters.
He flew a variety of aircraft, including Wellingtons with the Operational Training Unity, Avro Ansons on an Air Gunner course, Avro Lancasters and the American B24 Liberator at Kola Airfield.
He tells of his experiences after he and his crew went to India in 1944, after his skipper was posted there and flying operations to Rangoon and Burma.
William tells of how Lancasters fly at night, his bombing raid on a tanker and his encounter with a Mosquito which did not give any identification. He also tells of his crash and the death of his skipper.
William was demobbed in February 1947, and after the war worked for local water authorities until they were incorporated into Severn Trent. He retired just before his 65th birthday.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
1661 HCU
49 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bomb struck
crash
demobilisation
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
radar
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Winthorpe
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8786/PJohnsonKA1507.2.jpg
a4899a68c46a58711c699203c30b2867
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8786/AJohnsonK150603.1.mp3
599f1a032c78b646d3f49ba1ee7a8e7b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Johnson, Ken
K A Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Johnson, KA
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Ken Johnson (b. 1924, 1595311 Royal Air Force) and one photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-06-03
2017-04-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
KJ: My name’s Kenneth Alfred Johnson. I joined the RAF at nineteen, I had a trouble getting into the RAF because I was on making barrage balloon cables, so they classed that as – to keep you back. Anyway, I finally joined in 1943, I did my air gunner training which was the, what I was going for, at Dalcross in Scotland. I finally got to OTU, where we crewed up. Mostly, all the different pe – er, people joined together and sorted themselves out, but I didn’t have that opportunity because there was at – further ahead than myself, they was short of air gunners, so they gave us an exam on aircraft recognition and the top six were sent and the crews was picked out for them, they, we had no choice. Anyway, I was very lucky, I got a wonderful crew, an amazing pilot, he’d fought for the Finns against the Russians, an incredible fellow, he was. Anyway, we finally got to operationals. We’d gone through all OTU, which was on Wellingtons, we had a short spell on Stirlings, and then finally, onto Lancasters.
We was sent to Skellingthorpe, which is outskirts of Lincoln, on 61 Squadron. The air, the airfield was joined by, was made up of two squadrons, there were Number 51 – 50 Squadron, and Number 61, and I was on 61. We did – our first raid was a bit of a – well, it was all wrong, really. We were told when we set off that we were gonna bomb very close to our lines, and this was seven, seven days after D-Day, so consequently, we were given a call sign to not to bomb. I remember that after all these years, it were “Billy Bunter”, and we’d got even to the point of opening the bomb doors and this call came over - ‘Billy Bunter, Billy Bunter’, so we closed our bomb doors and set off back for home. Even a long, long way back, we were still hearing the master bomber calling out ‘Billy Bunter, Billy Bunter’ ‘til he finally rush, lost his temper and used a bit stronger language [laughs].
Anyway, that was number one, we finished bombing the North Sea. We did a few operations then, and then it came to the tenth operation, and this was to be a daylight one near Versailles at the V1 bomb installations, so as we got near the target at – I was a mid upper gunner, and I saw this Lancaster above me open his bomb doors and all I could see was two rusty rows, rows of rusty bombs glaring at me. I warned the skipper, but he said ‘Nothing I can do about it, we’re hemmed in, he’ll probably not drop ‘em’. That were wishful thinking, as our bomb aimer said ‘Bombs gone’, so this lot came down on top of us, three bombs hit us - [clears throat] ‘scuse me - one hit the starboard fin and rudder and sliced that off, one hit the starboard wing, knocked about four – it, well, originally it was dangling like, like a bird with a broken wing, about four foot of our wing, and the third one, unfortunately, hit the rear turret and took the rear gunner away with it.
Well, at this point, the intercom went dead, we bounced about the sky for a while ‘til he got it steadied again, but I didn’t know what was happening, they might have been jumping out as far as I knew, but I thought ‘Well, stick to it’, and I sat there, still looking ‘round in case any fighters were around, and it, a little while afterwards, I thought ‘Oh, I haven’t seen the rear turret moving’, that’s when the mid upper turret had no back to it, so by going for’ard, I could see between me legs, where the turret should have been, just a gaping hole. And, anyway, the skipper took us home, and when we got to, into the Skellingthorpe outer circuit, they wouldn’t let us land - [coughs] ‘scuse me, - because a plane had already crashed on one of the runways and they didn’t want to have to close the station down, so we were sent to another place, which happened to be an OTU.
Now, normally, you never carried the ladder that you got into the aircraft with, because o’ it altering the compass. Now, normally, we’d have just jumped out, but that day, I could not have jumped out, I should have landed flat on me face [laughs], so I had to wait ‘til one of the ground crew came and just got hold of me shoulder and helped me out. And the CO, this OTU, came flying out and we were all to – well, he was talking to my skipper that – giving him his condolences, and he said ‘Well, not much I can do for you, but I will give you a slap-up meal in the officers’ mess’. He’d hardly got the words out when a, a rider came out to say we’ve got to go back to Skellingthorpe immediately for the debriefing, so we never did get our slap-up meal. Anyway, the very next night, we were on ops again, and it was down to Bordeaux, South of France. We got over France and ran into an electrical storm, I’d never seen anything like that in me life before - St Elmo’s Fire. Each of the props had two foot of orange flame round them, the, all the aerials, there were little blue, well, it were like fairy lights running up and down the cable. The – oh, by the way, we’d got a new gunner on, of course, and he suddenly started screaming, and it were that bad, the skipper had told the engineer to go and pull his intercom out so we wouldn’t hear it. And, on top of all this fire, there were flashes going off the guns, as though you were firing but you weren’t, and every so often, you’d just drop about five hundred feet as though someone were chopping your legs under you. Anyway, this went on all the way to the target. When we got to the target, amazingly, there was a big gap in the clouds so we could see the target. Only thing is, we couldn’t see each other, so the bomber, the master bomber, said ‘Put all your lights on, and then you’re not, you’ll not gonna collide with each other’, only time we ever bombed with all the, all the lights in the aircraft on.
Anyway, we got to, we came back through the same, with the same carry on, and, as we got near to home, well, first of all, as we got near the Channel, the skipper had asked for a crash dome, there was two big crash domes near Ramsgate - [clears throat] ‘scuse me - and they – anyway, as we passed over the white cliffs, he said ‘Change to that, give me a route for home, I’m taking her home, I’ve brought her this far and I’m taking her home,’ and when we got home, we couldn’t land ‘cause of somebody else crashing, so we finished up at this other place. The very next night, no, I’ve already said that, they did a perfect landing, and that was the end of that one, that was the tenth raid. We had, at, as we got near the thirtieth, they, they altered the number of ops you’d got to do for a tour, so instead of thirty, we were supposed to gonna do thirty-six, but we did another three and the skipper said, the toad had been altered from thirty to thirty-six, so the skip, skipper suggested we do three and go on a ten-day holiday sort of thing, and then come back and do another three and we get another ten days, but it didn’t work out, they’d dropped it back to thirty when we came back [laughs]. So, we were Tour Expired. Well, four of us, the skipper said he were gonna go on with another tour straight away, you could have a rest but we didn’t, so four of us (that was the skipper, flight engineer, wireless operator and myself) said we’d go on this next tour, and the skipper had got a choice of where he wanted to go. One was on Pathfinders, one was on to 617 and the other one was Number 9 Squadron, which at that time was joining 617 on all special raids, carrying the twelve thousand pound Tallboy bomb, so really there was no argument about it because he was rather sweet on a, a WAAF officer at Bardney, which was 9 Squadron, so it was 9 Squadron.
And, as I say, we were only allowed to go on special ops and [pause] the first one, I unfortunately didn’t go on, because they, they took the mid upper turrets out to go and bomb the Tirpitz, and they put a Llewellyn 10 wind tank inside the fuselage, so to make room for that, they had to take the mid upper turret out. Well they, you might be interested in this, they bombed the Tirpitz and sank it and, a couple o’ days later, all those that were on the raid had to go into the briefing room, and ‘cause I would not been on it, I didn’t go in, I can only say what I was told. This, the CO came in with a bucketful of medals, now he, there weren’t no names on them because it was a – Churchill had said ‘The squadron must have these medals’, so first of all, they chose all those that had been on three raids for the Tirpitz, they all got a medal, then they found there were enough for those that had been on two, but there wasn’t enough for those that been on the last raid, so when it came to the last raid, they pulled names out of the hat - [coughs] ‘scuse me - rather annoyed my skipper because he thought it were demeaning, the, the idea of the medal. He’d already got DFC for bringing that damaged aircraft back. Anyway, that’s the way that was done.
After that, we did such targets as viaducts, we went to Bergen for the submarine pens, and they were all them sort of chosen targets. On the Bergen one, we were always Number One Wind Finder, because I had in my crew, I’d got the squadron bomb aimer and the squadron navigator, so we were always Number One Wind Finder. There were six aircraft, two had to be wind finders, and what we did, you had to go over a chosen, chosen point, set this machine going, fly around for so long, then come back over the same heading and then stop the machine, and then all the, the other five radioed in their – what they’d got, and it was up to our navigator, then, to sort out the wind from the chat. And on this Bergen raid, we, bomb aimer had chosen to go over a, a supposedly deserted airfield, and it chose the, where the runways crossed to do. Anyway, as we’re coming back for the second time, he were counting fighters coming up against us [slight laugh], and he got to forty-one when we, we’d got out of range then, so we knew they were gonna be in trouble, and we bombed the – I could never understand why the fighters didn’t attack ‘em before they bombed, they waited while we bombed, and we came out over a strip of land and then to the sea again. There was five fighters to one bomber, and there was one behind us, it -crew from our squadron, they got [unclear] got onto him, he put up a good fight, he shot one of them down, but they finally forced him into t’sea and it just disintegrated.
Now, I can’t think for a minute there’d be any of the crew alive, but one came to us and I thought ‘Oh, it’s our turn now’, but he suddenly realised he was alone. The other three were strafing the wreckage in the sea, and so he went and joined ‘em, lucky for us, and gave us chance to get away. But, after the war, and we went to these different reunions and that, there was very often a German fighter pilot come to these. I’m afraid I could never be friendly to ‘em, what I saw that day were – I was absolutely disgusted. Anyway, we, we finally finished up doing forty-four ops, so I consider myself a lucky person. I always felt there was guardian angel on me shoulder, but after the VE Day, they asked for volunteers for the Tiger Force, but I was getting married in three weeks’ time, so I thought ‘Well, I’ve done me share, I’m not gonna volunteer for it’. So, first of all, we went to a, another squadron that, that they’d formed, calling them North West Strike Force; the idea was, they thought the hardened Nazis would go up into the mountains and start a guerrilla warfare, but it never came to that, so after about three months, that was finished. And then I was put on ground staff and I was sent out to Egypt, I’d only been married three weeks [slight laugh], they sent me out to Egypt, driving. Well, I was in charge of a [unclear], a, not them, what d’you call it? A number of lorries, I’d got thirty lorries, it was on Alexandria docks, and I’d thirty lorries taking stuff down to the canal zone ‘cause the Brits then were starting to pull out of it, ah, Egypt altogether. But, apart from those lorries, at weekends I could have as many as a hundred lorries come from Cairo all wanting a load to take back.
Well, I were closing down, not only RAF but Navy and Army places, and at first, I made the mistake of ringing up and saying ‘What size lorries do you want for your…?’ and they’d all said ‘Ten tonners’. When the lorry came back, he’d have little crate on the back, so I thought ‘That’s no good’, so I had a little thirteen-hundredweight Dodge, and I used to go out to these places and estimate how many lorries I wanted and what size lorries and so on, and that worked wonderfully well. It were, one day, I got a phone call from a matron of a big hospital in Alex, the nurses want, some of the nurses wanted to go to Cairo for a week’s leave, would I, could I get some o’ t’lorry drivers to take ‘em? Well, they’re a lot better to go hundred and sixty-five mile wi’ a female companion than be on your own, so there plenty of volunteers for that, and that was still running when I left, that shuttle service [laughs]. Everybody seemed happy about it, so yeah, wonderful. And had ten mon – ten months in [pause] in Egypt, and, just before I came home, they dropped us all down from, well, myself were a warrant officer, dropped us down to sergeants, I thought ‘That’s a nice thank-you [slight laugh] for what you’ve done!’ And anyway, that were it, I came, I came home and immediately joined the, a Observer corps, we had quite some nice times, go out to this spot and we were spotting aircraft, but eventually, they, all they were interested in was nuclear, and the, the idea was that if there was a nuclear war and you’ve got to go to this station (mine was out at, near Finningley Airport, where we were), but you had to stay there ‘til the all clear. I thought, ‘No, that’s not for me, if I, if my family’s out there, then I’m gonna be out there as well, I’m not leaving t’family’. Anyway, thank God, it never materialised. So, oh, on one thing on this, while we were on the obs – air observers, the, our CO for the whole northern area was Pegler, that had the Flying Scotsman, and he arranged it for us to go to air show at – the big air show, anyway, and he took us down in his, in the Scotsman, and the, he’d got the observation car in, and each carriage got half an hour in ‘t observation car [laughs], but it was quite a, quite nice, yeah. Then, well, finally, we got back to civvies and got back to working again, and you’d be amazed how hard that was, settling down in civvy street again, even though I’d only been in the RAF four and a half year.
MJ: Battery change on Ken Johnson. On behalf of the International Bomber Command Archive Unit, I’d like to thank Ken Johnson for his recording on the date was the 3rd of June, June? Yeah, June 2015 at his home. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ken Johnson. One
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-03
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Sound
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AJohnsonK150603
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:25:22 audio recording
Description
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Kenneth Alfred Johnson joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 19, after being in a reserved occupation making barrage balloon cables. He trained as an air gunner, serving as a mid-upper gunner.
He had a spell at the Operational Training Unit, flying Short Stirlings and Avro Lancasters before joining 61 Squadron at Skellingthorpe.
He tells of an incident on his 10th operation, when he was on a daylight trip near Versailles at the V1 bomb installations when his aircraft was directly below a Lancaster which opened it’s bomb doors. The Lancaster above dropped its bombs, which damaged Kenneth’s aircraft, including carrying away the rear gunner.
Kenneth completed 34 operations on his first tour, and then went straight onto another tour, being posted to 9 Squadron at Bardney.
After VE Day, Kenneth was posted to Egypt in charge of lorries returning from Cairo.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
61 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb struck
Lancaster
RAF Bardney
RAF Dalcross
RAF Skellingthorpe
service vehicle
strafing
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8787/PJohnsonKA1507.1.jpg
a4899a68c46a58711c699203c30b2867
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8787/AJohnsonKA170403.2.mp3
eb18c023f71add18db542da2c8c7f140
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Johnson, Ken
K A Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Johnson, KA
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Ken Johnson (b. 1924, 1595311 Royal Air Force) and one photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-06-03
2017-04-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: We are now moving to another interview. My name is Chris Brockbank, and today is the 3rd of April 2017, and I’m in Doncaster with Ken Johnson who did two tours, and we’re going to talk about his life and times in the RAF. So, what’s your earliest recollection Ken? Of life.
KJ: In the RAF?
CB: No, in your family.
KJ: Oh, my family. Well, my father was a ironmonger, not an ironmonger, an iron moulder rather, by trade. So there was very little for that in Doncaster so he used to have to travel to Sheffield to work and he used to cycle there, do nine hours in the foundry and cycle home.
CB: Where were you living? In Doncaster?
KJ: Yeah. We lived, oh in that many parts of Doncaster it’s unbelievable. Hexthorpe, Doncaster, Balby, everywhere in Doncaster we’ve lived. I think he’d got a bit of gypsy in him, we never settled too far.
CB: Trying to be a moving target, was he?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Was he in the First World War?
KJ: No, no, he weren’t old enough.
CB: Right. And how many brothers and sisters did you have?
KJ: I had two brothers, no sisters. Both younger than myself and both have passed on.
CB: Right. Two brothers and two sisters.
KJ: No sisters.
CB: No sisters.
KJ: No.
CB: Just two brothers, yeah. And where did you go to school?
KJ: I started at Balby Infant’s School, I went to Hexthorpe, I went to Intake. I don’t think there’s many schools in Doncaster I haven’t been to.
CB: Why was that?
KJ: My dad, he’d got itchy feet. He could never settle at one place so we were always changing homes.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Aye. He’d brought a, he had it built, a bungalow at Finningley, a beautiful bungalow but my mother wouldn’t go to live there. She were a townie, she didn’t like countryside. Well we went, we lived there three days to be quite honest and that were it. She’d had enough.
CB: And what did you and your brothers think?
KJ: Pardon?
CB: What did you and your brothers think?
KJ: Well they were much younger than I. I was the eldest. There was one five years younger, and one ten years younger, so none of us really had any say in the matter. It was a bit unfortunate, keep having to change schools because you never got in to the ways of the school you were joining, but there you are. We had to knuckle under and put up with it.
CB: What did you do at school?
KJ: Just the ordinary schooling. No, er, I didn’t go to anything special you know, it was just the ordinary school.
CB: Yeah. And what did you do when you left school?
KJ: When I first left school we were living at Sheffield, which was just before the war, and I was a joiner’s apprentice, but when the war was, when the war started my dad said, ‘We’re going back to Doncaster. Sheffield will get bombed’, and he never said a truer word. It did. It got terribly bombed so we were back in Doncaster, and I was still in wood but it wasn’t a joiner’s apprentice, it were just a mundane. We were making clothes horses for people, for ladies to put their clothes to dry on. Clothes drier. And I stuck that for so long and then I went to work at British Ropes, down Carr Hill, in a reserved job which was making cables for barrage balloons. It was, it was a job that there were no joinings in the way. It had got to be a single wire and so it was classed as a reserved occupation. I only got in the RAF because I kept pestering them. I wanted to go and eventually they let me go. I always wanted to fly and I did plenty of that.
[pause]
CB: What type of flying did you want to do?
KJ: Anything. I were, I was prepared to do anything, and the quickest way — I mean a pilot and navigator and those sort of jobs, they were two or three years training and they had to go out to Canada and all like that. Well to be a gunner, it were only a matter of about eighteen months, so I chose the, oh at first it was like you said, wireless operator air gunner but that drove me mad that dit dit da dit dit da business, so I volunteered for a straight gunner and got away from it.
[pause]
CB: And what made you attracted to being a gunner particularly?
KJ: It was the easiest way of getting into aircrew. They needed two gunners to any other trade and I wouldn’t say my education were all that good anyway, so I chose the easy way, volunteered for a gunner.
CB: And when you started gunnery training, how did that go?
KJ: It went very well. I did that up at Dalcross in Scotland, so, yeah it went well. The flying part of it was exceptional ‘cause of the scenery, it was absolutely fantastic, the scenery we were flying over up in the north of Scotland. Aye. I never had any problems in that respect.
CB: What aircraft were you flying as training for that?
KJ: Originally Ansons, then we went on to Wellingtons and then finally Stirlings, and then finally Lancs, but I did all my operational flying on Lancs.
CB: So how did the gunnery course start? What did they do with you to begin with?
KJ: Well we used to go up in the aircraft. I think there were three, there might have been five, either three or five and your, your bullets that you would be firing had a different coloured paint on so they knew which, who had hit how many, and we flew up and then [pause], now I can’t remember the name of the aircraft. It was, it was originally supposed to be a fighter but it can’t have been fast enough so they used —
CB: And that was the Defiant.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Defiant. With a turret on it.
KJ: No, these were the aircraft that towed the target.
CB: Oh right.
KJ: And I remember they were always Polish pilots, always Polish, which was a bit hectic at times.
CB: Did the tug ever get hit?
KJ: Oh yeah. It wasn’t as easy as you thought, but it, yeah, we, as I say these bullets had a different colour on so they could tell when the drogue came back who’d hit, how many times and so on.
CB: How well did you score?
KJ: Well I didn’t think it were very well. I usually averaged about .5, but there were some worse than me and some a heck of a lot better, so [pause], I mean when you got in a Lancaster and you were, you went into a corkscrew, it’s a wonder you hit anything because one minute you were upside down, the next minute you were stood on your toes. All over the place and you were supposed to — you’d sight. Gun sight was a coloured lit up small thing, and at certain points you were supposed to put the target, say a quarter of the way down or the other side of it, wherever you moved you were supposed to — well trying to remember that lot were impossible. All you could do were aim ahead of the enemy aircraft and just blaze away and let him come through your hail of bullets.
CB: But you had a means of targeting according to the type of aircraft. How did that work?
KJ: No, not really. No. You just had this —
CB: Based on wing span wasn’t it?
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Based on wing span.
KJ: Yeah, and as I say you just had this image, lit up image, and you were supposed, at any point where, same as if you saw the fighter coming from starboard, you’d, say, ‘Fighter starboard. Corkscrew starboard. Go’, and at that, he’d dive in toward the enemy fighter. Well you can imagine, the pilots used to really thrash the aircraft around to avoid being hit themselves and so it were very very difficult to go to the procedure that —
[banging noises]
Other: Sorry. I did that.
KJ: To go to the procedure that you were supposed to go through, but you just had to make, make the best of it as you went along.
CB: Yeah. So as you mentioned corkscrew.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: This was the way of evading an attacking fighter.
KJ: It’s what?
CB: So just talk us through. Who made the call for the corkscrew?
KJ: The gunner.
CB: Which one?
KJ: Which one? The one that saw the fighter coming first.
CB: Right.
KJ: He’d shout out, ‘Fighter starboard’, or port or upper or down, and you were supposed to wait ‘til they were two hundred yards away because if you did it too soon, they could follow you.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So you were, you judged when it were the right distance, and the, ‘Corkscrew starboard. Go’, and then the pilot would go towards the fighter that was after you.
CB: So that he would overshoot. Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So in the corkscrew, what exactly was the manoeuvre? He was pulling it round hard. Then what?
KJ: Well he dived.
CB: Right.
KJ: Then climbed.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Then climbed again, then down again, that’s where you got your corkscrew.
CB: Right.
KJ: It looked like a corkscrew going through the sky.
CB: Getting you back on track.
KJ: Yeah, and as soon as they broke away you stopped it and waited for them coming again and then started it all over again.
CB: How many times did you get attacked?
KJ: Oh quite a few times but we never, we got hit with bullets but we never got them in any vital places.
CB: Right. We’re ahead of ourselves in a way, but going back to training.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: In the first part of the training, you’re on the ground.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So how did they carry out that training? With what sort of weapon?
KJ: Well you had, you had the usual 303 Brownings that you’d be using in the aircraft, but there was a turret mounted on a railway track and you just went round this circuit, and the aircraft had come over with a drogue and you’d try to get as many shots in as you could. But they frowned on, there was some got, tried to be a bit crafty and waited till it was a dead shot and then you couldn’t miss, but they frowned on that. They wanted you to do it the hard way like.
CB: So what sort of height are these target tugs coming in at?
KJ: They’d be at same height as yourself but coming in from all different directions.
CB: I meant when you were on ground. You were on the railway tracks.
KJ: Oh.
CB: So, what height are they coming in?
KJ: Well the drogue was on the same track but ahead of you, and that’s where they didn’t like you waiting till they come to a corner, because then you could just bang away and ever hit, everyone had hit.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So they frowned on that, but it was tried to make it as realistic as possible, and then, on top of that, you’d got cameras in the ones that you were flying and you did the same thing with a camera.
CB: So how did they deal with deflection shooting training?
KJ: Well you were always in the, each position the plane was in, on your gun sight, there was a place you were supposed to put your, put your sight on this and then fire away there, but as you could imagine, when you were doing corkscrewing, you were up and down and one minute you was, your head was banging on the top of the turret. The next minute, you felt as though they’d put a tonne weight on your shoulders. It was very difficult to, to aim.
CB: Ok. Back at the training so after a certain amount of ground training, did you use shotguns for deflection training?
KJ: Yeah, yeah, did all that. Yeah.
CB: Right, and did you alternate between using the Browning 303?
KJ: Oh I did. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the shotgun.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So it was a clay pigeon.
KJ: Clay pigeon, yeah.
CB: Shot. Right. So then you come to the flying, so three of you in an Anson. Or five.
KJ: Aye. Yeah.
CB: How did that work?
KJ: And you took turns to climb in to the turret and do your, do your thing.
CB: Because it’s a mid-upper turret on the Anson.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right.
KJ: Yeah, yeah, it was a twin engine. There were two very similar aircraft, Anson and Oxford, but I only ever heard of the Anson having the turret. Might have been Oxfords used for the same reason. There were no reason why not. They were almost alike aircraft [coughs] excuse me.
[pause]
CB: So in that aircraft, let’s say the Anson, you’ve got three or five students.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Who’s there guiding you?
KJ: Just the pilot.
CB: Was there another, an experienced air gunner?
KJ: Oh yeah, yeah, there would be, and he’d tell you when it was your turn to go in and come out.
CB: What sort of guidance did he give you?
KJ: Well he couldn’t do much at all except keep your eye on the target, and such tips as waiting while they were flying across you and getting ahead of them, and then really putting the bursts in. You were sure to hit something, but the thing that amused me — I thought these, when we got to that stage, I thought the people that were teaching us would have done operations but they hadn’t. They’d just, they’d been good in their training so they’d been held back as instructors.
CB: Was it actually a mix? Were there some people who were experienced?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Air gunners. Were there?
KJ: Well as I say there were, they’d done well in their training and they were held back.
CB: But there were people who’d been on operations there.
KJ: No. I thought there would be.
CB: But not at that time.
KJ: No.
CB: Ok. Right. And when you went up, how long was your go?
KJ: No more than half an hour. Yeah. From climbing in to climbing out of the turret. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And after Dalcross, then what happened?
KJ: After Dalcross, we were then went to OTU, our Operational Training Unit, and that was where you crewed up, but the normal thing was you’d get the same number of pilots, navigators etcetera, and they palled-up amongst themselves for a day or two, and then the pilot would say to one, navigators probably, ‘I want you as my navigator’. And that’s how it were crewed up, but I didn’t get that choice because when I went to OUT, there was so many crews ahead of us that hadn’t got gunners or they’d only got one gunner and needed another one, so we would, what would, what would you say, we were told which crew —
CB: Yeah.
KJ: We were going to be with.
CB: You didn’t get a choice.
KJ: I didn’t get a choice. I couldn’t have done better so. I remember we, we were, there’s Bruntinghorpe and Bitteswell. One was used for flying and the other was where you did your learning your other parts of the job, stripping guns down and all that sort of thing, and I remember I was told to go to the gatehouse where there was this navigator. He was going to be my navigator so he’d, I’d got to go see him and he would introduce me to the rest of the crew like. So we went, we went to the billets first the whole crew shared, well two crews shared a billet. There were fourteen beds in and he said, the navigator said, ‘Oh they’ll be going for lunch now to the sergeant’s mess so we’ll go meet the rest of the crew’. So we trooped off to the sergeant’s mess and there was a bit of a [pause] well I don’t know how to describe it, a bit of a hullaballoo going on. This pilot had gone in to the sergeant’s mess and he’d just picked out a gunner, a navigator and a wireless operator, ‘Come with me’, and he took them to a Wellington. They went off. He wanted to land at this aerodrome to meet a friend, but when they got there, they wouldn’t allow him, so he came back but he were in such a temper he tried to land without putting his wheels down. Made a mess of the undercarriage. Luckily, they all got away with it but he got put down in rank but lost about three ranks. And then we, we went into the mess and the navigator says, ‘Oh there’s the pilot’, and he were in a big armchair like this, with a sheet of newspaper over his face, away to the world, and this sheet of paper kept going up and down [laughs].
CB: As he puffed away.
KJ: As he were breathing. And he says, ‘There’s Harry’. His name was Harold really but he preferred being called Harry so, ‘There’s Harry there’, and I said, ‘Well don’t disturb him. He’s having a nice little nap there’. ‘Oh he’ll have to wake up for his lunch’, so he woke him up and introduced me. Shook hands with me, settled back down in his chair, pulled his paper down and went back to sleep [laughs], so that was my introduction to Harry Watkins.
CB: A flight sergeant.
KJ: Yeah. He’d, he was an amazing man he was. He was no bigger than me, no taller than me, maybe an inch but no more than that, but he’d got a chest on him like a barrel and he was strong as a bull. I’m sure he could have looped a Lancaster if he’d have wanted to, or if he’d been allowed to I should say, and he was a lot older than me. He’d gone to Finland to fight for the Fins against the Russians, and he were a fighter pilot and then when they signed a treaty, they sealed off the land borders so the only way they could get out, there was him and his friend, the only way they could get out was by sea, so they, they hired a trawler and they hit some very bad weather and almost drowned. A Russian gun boat picked them up, took them back to Russia and put them in a concentration camp. So he was ten, ten or eleven months in this concentration camp living on cabbage water. So by the time he got released, and the reason he’d got released was when the second front came, some of our soldiers that couldn’t get back to the beaches went to the Russians and they put them in this concentration camp, but the thing was, the British Consul had got a check on them. So they, as they were, they got them out, and these two other Britishers said, ‘When you get out, tell them there’s two more Englishmen in here wanting releasing’, and that’s how they got out. But he’d lost an amazing amount of weight, he’d, he had to go to Rhodesia to be built up before they’d let him sign up for the RAF. Aye. But he was an amazing man.
CB: But how did he come to go to Finland in the first place?
KJ: Well, you know, during the Spanish war.
CB: Ahh. The Spanish Civil War, yeah.
KJ: Some British were, well various —
CB: Yeah. The International Brigade.
KJ: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Well, that’s how they did for Finland.
CB: Oh, did they?
KJ: Aye.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So, aye, anyway they got out and built him up and then let him join up.
CB: So how did the crew get together after they were, get on when they got together?
KJ: Well, at first you, all the different navigator, pilots etcetera, etcetera, they were all went in this big room and allowed to mingle and talk among themselves, and they palled up. That’s what it amounted to but as I say, I never had that choice.
CB: No.
KJ: Because I, they’d got, they were crewed up except for another gunner and they just said right, oh they gave us a test on aircraft recognition and the first ten I think it was, were allotted to crews that hadn’t got a gunner.
CB: Ok.
KJ: And I stayed with him. We did a tour. Well a lot just did the tour and then took a rest and probably they never got called on again, but we all volunteered to keep going.
CB: Oh. You all did? You all volunteered to keep going as a crew, did you?
KJ: All but two. One was the navigator and he’d got a wife and two kiddies and he didn’t think it were fair on them to just volunteer to keep going, and the other one was the wireless operator. He had a sick mother and there again, he thought it weren’t fair to her to, so, and as far as I know, they never did call them up again.
[pause].
KJ: I don’t know where any of the crew are. I know the pilot died ‘cause I got — it’s in the Midlands, his grave, but as far as I know, he just died of, well it wouldn’t be old age because he wouldn’t be all that old, but perhaps had some sort of illness.
CB: So we talked about the OTU and you’re getting together there.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: How long were you at the OTU and what were you doing?
KJ: We used to go on flights, cross country’s they called them, and you had, you were given a course that you had to take, and on the way, there’d be some bomb practice places and you’d call there and drop, drop a bomb. A four pound practice bomb on it and you got marks for that and you got marks for being at certain points at certain times. So we did very well at that because we’d got an excellent navigator and an excellent bomb aimer and an excellent skipper. And that, we went on these cross country’s, which could take ten or even twelve hours, and as I say, you’d had to call at it’d perhaps be a power station or something. It were a great big power station that became common afterwards, but it was the only one at the time in the Midlands somewhere and that was a favourite place for you to. Of course, you didn’t actually drop a bomb on there, it were just a case of photographing it as though you had bombed.
CB: So the OTU lasted?
KJ: Three months.
CB: Three months.
KJ: Yeah, perhaps more.
CB: And then you went to the HCU. So your OTU was at Bruntingthorpe.
KJ: Operationally, yeah.
CB: Then the Heavy Conversion Unit. The HCU.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Where was that?
KJ: That was at either Bruntingthorpe or Bitteswell, I can’t remember. The two B’s so I can’t remember which was which.
CB: But they were the OTUs weren’t they?
KJ: Yeah. Oh well we did us [pause], I can’t remember.
CB: Ok, but you said you moved to Stirling.
KJ: Yeah, we went on Stirlings. I hated them.
CB: Why didn’t you like that?
KJ: They weren’t very easy to fly in. They were, if you, if you had to, with a Lancaster, you drove towards the landing strip and then eased up so as you’d got a three point landing, but if you did that with a Stirling, it’d break it’s back and you’d be —
CB: Oh.
KJ: Yeah, and there was always plenty to let you know about it. Wreckage on the, on the airfield.
CB: Oh really. Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So how many, how long were you flying that before you changed to Lancaster?
KJ: Luckily it wasn’t too long. About six weeks that.
CB: And doing the same exercises or different?
KJ: Doing mostly the same things. Yeah.
CB: To what extent were you doing fighter affiliation?
KJ: Oh we were doing that. Every time we went up we’d have a bit of that in.
CB: Right.
KJ: You’d got to keep your eyes open in the gun turrets because they could come up on you anywhere, and you’d perhaps be like them cross country’s ten hours. Twelve hours in some cases.
CB: So that’s your HCU.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Then your first squadron you joined was?
KJ: 61.
CB: Where was that?
KJ: Skellingthorpe.
CB: Right.
KJ: Just outside Lincoln, and there were two squadrons shared the same airfield.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So when there was a bombing raid on, you’d get them coming from both sides but you used to take it in turns, 50, 61s and so on, until you’d got the two squadrons airborne. Yeah.
CB: And how many bombers in a squadron?
KJ: Eighteen. They’d usually aimed to have eighteen in the air.
CB: Oh in the air. Right. So not all of them flew, so how many aircraft were there?
KJ: Well no I mean, if there was anything serious like an engine change or anything like that, then one squadron or the other would be one down, but usually they aim for getting eighteen from each squadron on a raid.
CB: Ok. So when you got to the squadron then, when you got to the HCU, then the flight engineer and the rear gunner joined.
KJ: Yeah. Well only the flight engineer.
CB: Or the upper gunner which was you.
KJ: It was the upper gunner was the one that joined so far through.
CB: So you didn’t go to the OTU, or you did?
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. I joined them at —
CB: At the OTU.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And then —
CB: And at the HCU, then the flight engineer joined.
KJ: Joined us, yeah.
CB: Right.
KJ: And again, we didn’t have any choice, they just marched us on parade.
CB: Who was that?
KJ: They called him Fred Jowett.
CB: How did he gel? Bearing in mind you’d been together already?
KJ: It were, well he took up with the rear gunner, him and Fred were big friends, they used to go out.
CB: Carson Foy.
KJ: Yeah, used to go out drinking at night and all that sort of business, but he was married and I didn’t like the way he treated his wife, so I hadn’t got a lot of time for him.
CB: Oh.
KJ: He were good at this job but [pause] I always remember the parade when he was put in our crew, and he’d got a pair of trousers that he’d had widened like sailor’s trousers [laughs]. He got reprimanded for that and made to pay for them being put back to what they should be. And his, his cap, I think he must have cleaned engines with his cap, it were just one block of grease. He and his wife, whenever he got forty eight hour leave or anything like that, used to come home with me because his wife were in Army.
CB: Oh.
KJ: And she was stationed in Doncaster, she was a sergeant. And my mum and dad used to let them use their bedroom and I were kicked down to the sofa.
[long pause]
CB: So when you got to the squadron, what happened then?
KJ: Well not a lot of fuss made. All you, all you got at first, you did so many cross country’s to, with the aircraft affiliation also and bits thrown in to get used to what operational flying would be like. And then of course came the big day for the first op, and our first op was just after D-day and it was helping the Army. But they were so, the front lines were so close, we were given a signal to stop bombing, and I always remember it was “Billy Bunter” and we hadn’t bombed. We got to the target just ready to bomb, and this signal came. “Billy Bunter. Billy Bunter”, so we closed our bomb doors and changed back to go back home, but a lot of them kept bombing and the, the master bomber got fed up with them and he was really giving them a ticking off.
CB: For staying on.
KJ: For keep bombing.
CB: What was the target there?
KJ: Well, it were the enemy armoury. Tanks.
CB: Hitting Canadian troops were they?
KJ: Oh ours, yeah, a lot of ours were Canadian. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: No, I meant when the targets – they had, they had a friendly fire problem.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Was that why they stopped the bombing?
KJ: That’s right, yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah, ‘cause when the two lines got too close, you couldn’t decide one from the other so. Aye.
[pause]
CB: What other, so in your first tour what other, what significant things happened there?
KJ: Well first tour, we were with the crowd, you know, with the main force, but our second tour, we carried the twelve thousand pound Tallboy bomb and it was chosen targets. The last one being Hitler’s guest house at Berchtesgaden.
CB: Right.
KJ: But he wasn’t there anyway so.
CB: Why were they bombing it then?
KJ: Well they didn’t know he weren’t. They thought he was there but apparently, he wasn’t when it —
CB: Still in Berlin.
KJ: Aye. In a bunker, underground bunker where he died anyway.
CB: So what significant events happened to you during the bombing raids? During the ops.
KJ: In what way do you mean?
CB: Well did you have any excitements or dangers? You got shot at a few times.
KJ: Oh we had some. I mean we got that time when aircraft above dropped his bombs on us.
CB: What happened there?
KJ: Three bombs hit us. One chopped off the starboard fin and rudder, one chopped off about five foot off the starboard wing, up to the starboard outer motor, and the third one hit the rear turret and took the rear turret away.
CB: And that’s why you needed a new rear gunner.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Did he get out?
KJ: Oh no. No. I’ve, I’ve been to his grave in Normandy.
CB: So this was a daylight operation was it?
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. I warned him about this, but the pilot says, ‘They’ll see us and they won’t drop them’, but almost as he said it, they were coming down on us.
CB: He couldn’t accelerate away.
KJ: No. He said, ‘There’s nothing I can do about it. We’re hemmed in’, so he just had to sit tight.
CB: So at night raids, you were in a stream. When you were bombing in daylight, how did you do that? Was it formation or still a stream?
KJ: Still a stream.
CB: Right.
KJ: You might get in a formation going backwards and forwards, but once you got near the target, you’re independent. You did as you want then.
CB: So without its turret, how did the plane behave? Rear turret.
KJ: Well we didn’t find any difference. In fact, he made a perfect landing when we got back, but it must have been, must have made a difference but he were a fantastic pilot so he dealt with it. When he got, when he got out the plane, his shirt was absolutely wet through. He must have fought it every inch of the way back.
CB: Because it had damaged the fin.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: One of them.
KJ: Well he’d only have part, part of his controls.
CB: And the wing. Which fin was hit?
KJ: Starboard fin.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And starboard wing.
CB: Oh it was, yeah.
KJ: So we were top heavy sort of thing.
CB: So you’re in the mid-upper turret.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: You’ve already warned the pilot about the plane above.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: What, what did you see when the bomb was coming down and the affect? How did this happen?
KJ: We’ll all I could see were these.
CB: A stick.
KJ: A full bomb bay full of bombs.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Coming down towards us and most of them slipping past on my left side.
CB: Right. You’re facing which way? Backwards?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah. And I couldn’t help but see them because they were on top of me. It wasn’t a nice moment.
CB: So did some of them, they must have done, in a stick, some of them missed.
KJ: Yeah, quite a few of them went between the starboard wing.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And the starboard fin and rudder.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: More or less alongside me. Too close for comfort.
CB: So how much higher was this other plane?
KJ: It wasn’t too far above us because we were all supposed to be at the same height, but some used to go higher to avoid that happening to them, but the trouble is they did it to somebody else.
[pause]
CB: So you saw the bombs coming down.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: What, what was it like? Some were missing then. How many hit the turret?
KJ: There were three hit the aircraft.
CB: Right. Oh, three hit the aircraft. Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So one on the wing, one on the rudder.
KJ: And one on the rear turret.
CB: Yeah. So how did that come? That came straight down. Then how did you see it?
KJ: Well we got the, I’m getting mixed up with my starboard and, on the left hand side.
CB: On your left because you’re looking backwards.
KJ: They were all coming that side.
CB: Yes, the starboard side.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: And were you able to call out?
KJ: Well I did do, I warned him but he said, ‘Nothing I can do. We’re hemmed in’.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So we just had to sit there and hope for the best.
CB: So where did the bomb, where did it hit the turret? The one that hit the turret, where?
KJ: Straight on top.
CB: Straight in the middle.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: And the effect of that?
KJ: Tore it away from –.
CB: The whole of the turret.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right.
KJ: There was just a gaping hole where the rear turret should have been.
CB: So what chances of survival were there for the rear gunner?
KJ: Zero.
CB: Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: And they didn’t explode because the primer.
KJ: No you wouldn’t.
CB: Hadn’t gone into action then.
KJ: You’d got that little.
CB: The delay.
KJ: Propeller that unscrewed as it dropped down.
CB: Right.
KJ: But it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be live until it was, say, a thousand feet.
CB: Right.
KJ: Above the ground and then it would slowly become alive.
CB: Right. So how many other members of the crew saw that?
KJ: Nobody apart from me.
CB: What effect did that have on you afterwards?
KJ: Well I were very, very upset because he were a friend of mine, the rear gunner.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: But I didn’t realise ‘till it were very late on in the war. We were coming back from a raid and it were a daylight, and as we crossed the Rhine, I saw these Typhoons going up and down and releasing rockets, and I’d never seen anything like that. At the gun emplacements along the Rhine. And I suddenly realised I was sweating and it were cold. There were no reason to be sweating, but that must have been nerves I should imagine.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
CB: So after the raid did you, that particular one, where you lost your friend, did you fly the next day? Or was there –
KJ: Yeah. We were on ops the very next night, yeah.
CB: So was that better than having a rest or worse?
KJ: Well they told you it was for your own benefit if you —
CB: Yeah. Get up again.
KJ: So yeah, we were on another raid the following night.
CB: And how did that work for you?
KJ: It went pretty well really. A bit strange with getting a new voice from the rear turret but — [pause]. He were a farmer, he’d no need to be in the forces at all but he’d got two brothers that had adjoining farms, and they were looking after it for him.
CB: Which part of the country was that?
KJ: It was in the Midlands somewhere that they came from.
CB: Ok [pause], so apart from that one on the Rhine crossing, did you have any reaction on any other sorties?
KJ: Well er the Rhine, I didn’t know just how close it had come to that, but we got hit by shrapnel and one piece had gone through about two inches above my head, the top of my head and buried in the fuselage at the other side. The, one of the ground crew dug it out but he wouldn’t, I wanted him to give it to me but he wouldn’t. He hung on to it so —
CB: He wanted it did he?
KJ: Aye.
CB: Was it a bullet or shrapnel from flak?
KJ: Shrapnel from flak.
CB: Right.
KJ: A jagged piece about that.
CB: Yeah. About two inches, three inches.
KJ: It would have done enough damage anyway.
CB: Yeah. So when it hit your canopy, did it go through or did it shatter it?
KJ: It went through and then through the other side. The hole was pretty neat but there was a few cracks from it, you know.
CB: That was after the turret experience was it?
KJ: Yeah. We did, we did a tour and then instead of having a rest, we carried on with another tour.
CB: So those were both in the first tour.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right. What caused you to do another go?
KJ: The pilot. He were a keen type and I wouldn’t have flown with anybody else if I could avoid it.
CB: That was 9 Squadron.
KJ: Yeah. He used to have his own way of taking off ‘til they stopped him doing it. They said, ‘We know you’re capable but somebody might try it and not be as successful as you’. You’re still, as we took off, he’d only just got airborne and he’d tilt over. It looked very spectacular from the ground but, well it looked spectacular from the gunner’s point of view as well, but he was warned off not to do it again.
CB: What did he do then? Bring the undercarriage up quickly or what?
KJ: Yeah. Quickly undercarriage up and he was already tilting his, er tilting the wing until it was, well it must have been pretty near the ground.
CB: He was turning his wing.
KJ: Anyway, he was ordered not to do it again.
CB: How did he feel about that?
KJ: Oh he took it all in good part. He were, he were a nice man was Harry Watkins.
CB: When you got your second rear gunner, because of the first one being lost, how did he get in with the crew or not?
KJ: Well he palled up straight. The engineer was a big drinker and so was this new gunner, so them two got on well together. I once counted that they had twenty two pints of beer.
CB: Each.
KJ: Each. They must have floated [laughs].
CB: Amazing. So how often did the crew go out together? These two clearly wanted to get ahead of the game.
KJ: When we were, if we were landing back at base very rare. If I wanted a drink, I’d have it in the sergeant’s mess but if you landed away from base, the officers could sub money from the officer’s funds so they’d sub so much money and treat us out for the night.
CB: How often did you find the pubs short of beer?
KJ: Did we find?
CB: The pubs short of beer. How often?
KJ: Oh, not very often, not very often [paused], but I used to like to stick to the sergeant’s mess.
CB: So how did you manage to keep in touch with Joan? Your future wife.
KJ: By mail, that were all, and get home as soon as soon, as often as possible. I used to, I were stationed quite close to Lincoln in both —
CB: In Bardney.
KJ: Both Bardney and Skellinghorpe.
CB: Skellingtorpe, yeah.
KJ: So it was an easy matter to get a train to Doncaster from them places. So if I’d got, if we weren’t flying that night, I’d take a chance on it and go home for the night. Only once did we nearly come adrift and that was, that was at Skellingthorpe, and from the bus stop to the camp was about a mile walk and all the way along, we could hear this tannoy saying myself and the engineer to report to the flights immediately. They’d come on an early morning raid they were going to do. Well they’d got reserves to go in our places, but the lad that were going to be the rear gunner, he said, ‘No. I’m not bothered. You go on’, so I got my raid in. But the engineer, this young man that were standing in for him had only got that one raid to finish his tour, so he said, ‘Oh no. I’m going on it’, so, but we both got the same punishment. Grounded for so many days and, not much like. A good telling off. It were a funny thing that, because the skipper always knew where we were, my home address, and he swore he’d sent a telegram but we never got it. So —
CB: That’s why you were late.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So what did they do to you?
KJ: We got a reprimand and confined to barracks for so long.
CB: How did the leave system work? How often did you get leave?
KJ: Oh with aircrew we were very lucky. We got a week’s leave every six weeks and you got a week’s pay from —
CB: Nuffield Fund.
KJ: Nuffield, aye. He also, when we went on leave, he gave us a week’s pay as well so a very popular man.
[pause]
CB: So you finished with 50 Squadron and went to 9.
KJ: Finished with 61.
CB: Finished with 61 Squadron and went to 9.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: How was the process and operation different from your previous experience?
KJ: Not a lot different really but we’d done more ops than others. We were senior crew like, ‘cause we’d done more than all the others, but it didn’t take long for somebody to overtake us, so —
CB: So here, you’re doing precision bombing.
KJ: Oh yeah.
CB: Tallboy, twelve thousand pounder.
KJ: Yeah
CB: So how did you do your training for that?
KJ: Well they did, I know the bomb aimers did have, we used to take up the bomb aimers to do this practice bombing and there were certain regulations laid down how they should treat this Tallboy bomb. ‘Course the Tallboy, you had to have special bomb doors. Normal bomb doors wouldn’t close over a Tallboy.
CB: How were the, what were these like?
KJ: They’d, they were shaped. Instead of just going around, they come down so far and then bellied out a bit and then came back in, so you could tell there was something different about them, and then, when them that carried the twenty two thousand pounder, they didn’t have any bomb doors on at all.
CB: The Grand Slam.
KJ: The Grand Slam. They just had a chain holding it up but I never carried that. We were, we stuck to Tallboys.
CB: How often did you have to, how often did you fail to drop the Tallboys or did you always drop them?
KJ: Well if we couldn’t be sure of the target, we’d orders to bring it back. Sometimes they changed their mind if conditions weren’t good and that, but as a rule, we brought them back because they cost so much to produce.
CB: And how did you feel about landing with such a heavy load on?
KJ: Well at first very tedious, very timid, but you got used to it like everything else.
CB: Your pilot was a good one so —
KJ: Oh a fantastic man, yeah.
CB: What sort of targets were you going for then?
KJ: With the Tallboy, they were chosen targets like dams or them viaducts.
CB: The U-Boat. Oh right.
KJ: And that type of thing. Things that you could knock down.
CB: So the Bielefeld Viaduct was brought down by a Grand Slam. Did you drop that?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Did that, was 9 Squadron involved in that?
KJ: Yeah. Always two squadrons. At first 617, like on the dam raid, there were only them.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: But subsequent raids they were losing more and more men, so they decided to lighten the load by putting two squadrons on these special targets rather than one, and the other squadron was Number 9, so it meant that 617 didn’t have to take it all.
CB: And how many ops did you do on your second tour?
KJ: Fifteen.
CB: And what, why did those stop?
KJ: Well, the war ended.
CB: It was the end of the war.
KJ: Yeah, thirty was a tour.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Well we did a tour but then we carried, agreed to carry straight on and we just carried on till the end of the war then, and the very last raid was Hitler’s guest house at Berchtesgaden.
[pause]
CB: So the war is over, now what did you do?
KJ: Well, they, they were getting ready to go to the Far East to carry the war to Japan, so I thought, well, I’ve done forty five ops, I’ve done my share. It wouldn’t be fair to the wife to carry on so I dropped out the race. But they never got there anyway, the war ended before they, they got to that point, so that was it.
CB: So the end of the war in Europe was the 8th of May, August was VJ day, so you were still in the RAF after that.
KJ: Oh yeah.
CB: What was going on? What were you doing then?
KJ: Well we were doing more or less the same things for so long, for about a year, and then we were put on ground staff jobs, and I got put on, well it were my choice, on driving. They were cook or drivers and I didn’t fancy cooking. I might have poisoned them all.
CB: Very likely. No, no, no. And what was, what determined the date of your demob?
KJ: It went on how old you were mainly ‘cause, and there was, the RAF for some reason was being held back ‘til last. So the Army and the Navy were getting demobbed, demobbed ahead of us but eventually the day came. But in that time, I’d been sent to Egypt and I was in charge of a lorry place which had forty five lorries, and I had to find loads for them going backwards and forwards. So, but eventually the day came when we came home [pause], and it was just a case of landing in Liverpool, going into this big hangar, big hangar and throwing my RAF kit into that, and walking out in a new suit. We got rigged out with civilian clothes.
CB: Right. What did they give you in civilian clothes?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: What did they give you?
KJ: A suit, shirt, tie, hat - which I never wore. I never wore a hat. The only time I wore a hat were in the RAF. And socks and shoes, the whole bag of tricks.
CB: So you came out of the RAF. Then what did you do?
KJ: Well my father had a little foundry and I went to work for him, but I did join the Observer Corps and I did another couple of years, part time of course, in the Observer Corps. We used to have exercises, mostly at weekends and we had a place out at Brampton.
CB: At Brampton.
KJ: Aye.
CB: Near Huntingdon.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Brampton near Huntingdon [pause]. Where?
KJ: I thought it were Brampton. It was near Finningley.
CB: Ah.
KJ: Back side of Finningley. Actually we were in some gardens.
CB: Right.
KJ: There were like a hut there with a all glass top.
CB: Right.
KJ: So as you could see aircraft, and for a while it were interesting, ‘cause we did, we’d go on a weekend and we’d have to spot and record every aircraft we saw flying over. But then it got to nuclear business and the idea was you’d go out if there were a nuclear warning. We’d have to go out to the shelter and stay there till you got the all clear, but you were leaving your family behind. I said, ‘No. No. That’s not for me. If I go, we all go’, so I packed it in.
CB: In the Observer Corps, you were being paid as an employee were you?
KJ: In the Observer Corps? No. No, it were voluntary.
CB: So what was your job at the time?
KJ: I was working at er mining.
CB: In your father’s foundry.
KJ: Mining supplies. Engineering.
CB: Right. So you joined father’s foundry company.
KJ: Aye but –
CB: Then you changed from that.
KJ: I went to work for International Harvesters.
CB: Right. Oh right.
KJ: And learned more about machines, so I stayed at the Harvesters some years then. Twelve years I think.
CB: Did you? Right.
KJ: Aye, ‘cause my dad’s place – my mother was taken seriously ill. She died of cancer and my dad’s place had really gone to ruins. There was nobody knew how to run it like he did and he was at home all the time nursing mum, so I worked for Harvesters then for twelve year.
CB: And then what did you do? Did you do something after that?
KJ: I finished up at mining supplies.
CB: Right.
[phone ringing]
CB: We’ll stop it a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: Where were the mining supplies? That was in Doncaster?
KJ: Carr Hill, yeah.
CB: In Carr Hill, yeah. And what were you doing there?
KJ: Engineering, running the machine.
CB: Oh right.
KJ: It was the, oh what did they call them?
CB: Milling.
KJ: Yeah. They were [pause]. Oh what did they call them? The machines that you put a programme in, and they —
CB: Yeah. CCN. Yeah
KJ: Yeah. So —
CB: CNC. CNC.
KJ: A lot of the young ones that were working there didn’t want to know, so I said I’d have a go at it, so I was taught how to run this machine and it fell in just natural, and that’s how I finished up working.
CB: How long were you with that one?
KJ: Oh a good, good, right to, after the war. I should say twelve, twelve years again.
CB: Right, and that brought you to retirement did it?
KJ: Yeah. Well I worked a long time after my retirement but eventually I had.
CB: Had to retire.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right. I’m just going to pause.
[Recording paused]
CB: Right. So what would you say was the most memorable event in your time in the RAF?
KJ: I think obviously it would be I mean we’ve had some shaky dos as we used to call them, when we were being hit by flak and all that sort of thing, chased by fighters, but the worst experience was when we had the bombs dropped on us.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And we lost our rear gunner.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: That was the most memorable thing.
CB: Traumatic.
KJ: Traumatic, that’s a better word yeah. Yeah.
CB: Out of interest, what did the Air Force do about a memorial service after that? Did they do anything?
KJ: No.
CB: No, because it was just run of the mill.
KJ: That’s it, yeah, it was a risk you took.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: That were their thinking, yeah. I’ve been to, you know, the Spire in Lincoln.
CB: Yes.
KJ: Well I’ve been to that, and all the names of those that got killed are all on brass plaques around the Memorial, and where we used to call him Jack Foy, ‘cause his name was Carson Jack Foy, and if I stand up again at this particular plaque, his name just appears above my head.
CB: Does it really.
KJ: Aye.
CB: ‘Cause he’s one of the ones of the twenty six thousand two hundred in the rolls of honour. The three.
KJ: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: The three volumes.
KJ: His mother lost two sons within [pause] within a month anyway.
CB: Really.
KJ: We lost Jack and then a few days after it was D-day and his brother was in the Canadian Army and he was killed on D-day.
CB: Right.
KJ: So she lost two sons.
CB: Heartbreaking.
KJ: I used to write to his sister but I know, but, one time I weren’t well and I left it, and I thought oh it’s, I’ll leave it now so I didn’t bother after that.
CB: We didn’t really talk about the number of times you were actually attacked by fighters and your response to that in defence of the aircraft.
KJ: I should say at least a half a dozen times, and it depended which gunner spotted them first, because he would take over as the [pause], tell the skipper to go into a corkscrew, so you’d shout, ‘Corkscrew left. Corkscrew left. Go’, and off you would go.
CB: And everybody then held on.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: How many did you shoot down between you?
KJ: We only, we only claimed one but —
CB: Was that yours?
KJ: We, there were a few we discouraged shall we say.
CB: Yes. Did the, did the one you shot down, was that yours or was it Carson’s?
KJ: Well I said it was the rear gunner’s because he got better shots at it. I were only getting it as it whizzed by. Just get in front and blaze away and hope for the best, but the rear gunner was watching it from the time it started to come at us.
CB: What was it?
KJ: An ME109.
CB: Right. In the dark?
KJ: Yeah, it was dark. Yeah. We got chased with a ME101.
CB: 110.
KJ: 110. 110. But it were cloudy that day and we kept dodging into the clouds and losing him.
CB: Right.
KJ: But he persevered for a hell of a time. Every time we come out of the cloud, he were there.
CB: Yeah, because he’d got radar hadn’t he?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah. Course we didn’t know that at that time.
CB: Was it possible for the mid-upper and the rear gunner to engage the target at the same time?
KJ: Oh yeah, yeah, no problem there. The rear turret as you were, you went on a duckboard from the, well it was the toilet there.
CB: At the back.
KJ: At the back, and from there to the turret, you’d got like a runway, thick plywood, and you walked along that to get into the rear turret. Well from there, right up to under my turret, the rear gunners had got four, well two each side, four rows of cartridges going on a conveyer belt.
CB: Twenty seven feet of them.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Nine yards. Twenty seven feet.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah, and mine were just in canisters either side of the guns.
CB: Right.
CB: So —
KJ: On the wall or on the floor?
CB: On the [pause] up, up same height as myself.
KJ: Right.
CB: So how many? You had obviously many less rounds. How many rounds did you have?
KJ: There were just a minute’s firing. One thousand something on each gun.
CB: Oh right.
KJ: So, but I mean the rear turret could go on for ages.
CB: How many rounds did the, that’s a lot of rounds on there stretched on the floor.
KJ: Oh yeah.
CB: For the rear gunner.
KJ: Yeah, yeah, coming right back from the rear turret to my turret and back again. Yeah, it was [pause] well it was about half way up the aircraft from the rear turret. Yeah. He’d a hell of a lot of cartridges, and you had incendiary bullets so you could see where you were, where your bullets were going.
CB: Tracer.
KJ: Tracer bullets.
CB: They were, they weren’t all tracer.
KJ: No.
CB: So it was, was one in how many?
KJ: One in every five, I think.
CB: Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: You needed that in the dark.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. Then later on some of the rear turrets got .5s.
CB: Right at the end.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Just 2.5s. Yeah.
KJ: Two instead of four 303s, yeah.
CB: So how did you feel about your reduced fire power of only two guns in the mid-upper?
KJ: Well you’d have been happier with more, but you just had to make do. I mean the rear, rear gunner had got a lot more fire power than you.
CB: When you were zeroing in on the attacking fighter, which part of the fighter would you actually be aiming to hit?
KJ: Well the easiest way was get in front of him and fire and let him come through your hail of bullets.
CB: Right.
KJ: But they had a laid down plan. You’d got the gun sight which was about that big. A circle.
CB: Right.
KJ: With a dot in the middle.
CB: Three inches.
KJ: And you were supposed, at different points, when you were in the corkscrew, trying to escape, different points where you were supposed to put your gun, aim you gun, but it was impossible.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: I mean, one minute you were head were in the top.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: The next minute it felt as though somebody had put a tonne weight on your shoulders. So a lot of it was using your own judgement.
CB: The final question on this is, you and the rear gunner are in a section that is completely unheated.
KJ: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: So how did you feel during the flight?
KJ: Well we were issued with heated suits but the trouble was, nine times out of every ten, they weren’t tended for and one minute they were too hot and the next, when you turned them off they were too cold. So they weren’t a lot of good to be quite honest, but you had an electrically heated suit and then an overall suit over the top of that.
CB: There were two circuits were there in the heated suit? One each side.
KJ: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So did they always both work?
KJ: Oh some of them failed. Some of them had got, they were, they got that hot, within minutes you had to take them off. You couldn’t stand that. It were better to not get used to it.
CB: So what sort of lengths were the flights? They varied but, to the target but what length in hours was a typical flight.
KJ: I should say on an average about six, seven hours but I’ve done some up to twelve hours.
CB: What that would be? The longest ones.
KJ: Stettin.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Would be one of the longest ones. Right up in, well it were Russia at that time.
CB: Right out on the Baltic coast.
KJ: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: Did you, because you were getting to the end of the war, but you didn’t have, the Tallboy wasn’t used so you weren’t on the, some of the later raids to the cities.
KJ: No. Although I did Tallboy raids.
CB: Yes.
KJ: Some, some of my raids we carried the Tallboy.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: But a lot of it was, at the beginning in particular, you were going for German cities and you’d drop incendiaries and then the bangers after that, if you call them that. But you lit the target up with incendiaries first.
CB: But the four thousand pounder.
KJ: Yeah. Strangely enough, a lot of aircrew didn’t trust them. They were, they were very touchy if they got disturbed. They were likely to go off.
CB: Really.
KJ: After say, an hour, because they got an hour’s timing on them and probably when they’d been put up under, in to the bomb bays, somebody might catch them and that started the timing off.
CB: Oh.
KJ: But you didn’t know but you’d, after an hour, as you were crossing the channel, you’d see suddenly one in front of you blow up.
CB: And that was why was it?
KJ: That were why. Yeah. Yes very —
CB: What did they have in them then, that made them so sensitive?
KJ: Well it was the timer.
CB: I meant the explosives. It was a combination was it? Explosives and incendiary?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Was it?
KJ: No. High explosive bombs. No, I don’t think the incendiaries were as much to worry about.
CB: So you’re dropping Tallboys, and how accurate would you say you were doing that?
KJ: Well you’d got to be accurate because anybody that got outside the aiming point would get a real telling off. The bomb aimer would get, and of course the pilot wouldn’t be very pleased, so he’d put his two penneth in as well.
CB: And how well could you see the effect of those?
KJ: Oh on some raids you could see every bomb that dropped. See it hit the ground and see the explosion and everything, but, ‘cause the, with the Tallboy, when it hit the ground you’d get like throwing a pebble in water. You’d get them rings come up but they were pressure rings instead of —
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And if you got, if you were below eight thousand feet, they’d throw you all over the place if you got in that.
CB: Oh really.
CB: Oh yeah.
KJ: Yeah. Aye, ‘cause if we were dropping them, the rest of the force were told not to drop less than, not to go below eight thousand feet.
CB: But they didn’t explode on impact because they were designed for penetration weren’t they?
KJ: That’s right.
CB: So there was a delay?
KJ: Yeah. They’d an armour plating nose which buried in to the ground and then depending on the delay fuse, would depend on that when they went off.
CB: Now one of the targets for some time was U-boat pens. How well did they work on those?
KJ: With, I know we did U-boat, U-boat pens at Bergen in Norway and we’d got one hour timers on and they went through the top of the pen and they were half in the pen and the Germans thought they were duds but —
CB: Right.
KJ: On the hour they found out they weren’t.
CB: Right, but the hour delay was designed to get maximum effect of casualty.
KJ: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I say, they thought they were duds and by the time they found out they weren’t, it were too late.
CB: Viaducts. So you talked about those.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: With viaducts, were they effective on those?
KJ: Yeah. Oh yeah, because they used to bury under the, underneath and that caused them to crumble over.
CB: So how did you feel about it after you’d been on a raid?
KJ: [Laughs] Thankful that we’d come back. Yeah.
CB: I was thinking about your reaction to the result of your bombing.
KJ: Oh well, we were always pleased to see we, we’d made a mess of where we were bombing.
CB: Because unlike a normal raid, there wouldn’t be lots of smoke.
KJ: No. No. No.
CB: It would be clear cut, wouldn’t it? What you’d done.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. As soon as a Tallboy hit the ground, you got those —
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Rings coming up.
CB: Shockwaves, yeah. And what about Grand Slams? Did you drop those as well?
KJ: We didn’t, no, there were only six. I think only three aircraft on 617 that were altered to carry them.
CB: Right.
KJ: Because they had no bomb doors on them.
CB: No.
KJ: Just they just went up, ‘cause the first time I saw them, I couldn’t believe my eyes. This damned great thing slung under an aircraft and no bomb doors. Aye.
CB: Did you do joint raids with 617, or were they all done separately?
KJ: No, the second tour, we were always with them, but the first tour was with general.
CB: Yeah, general bombing.
KJ: Bombing, yeah.
CB: Right. Thank you very much.
KJ: It’s a pleasure.
[Recording paused]
CB: Just one other thing, on the Tirpitz raids then, what happened there?
KJ: Well, they took the mid-upper turrets out altogether to lighten the load they were carrying, and they had a, they had a bigger bomb on, the twelve thousand pound bomb. But they were, they were special made bomb doors, they weren’t completely round, they’d got a dimple in them to go around the shape of the bomb.
CB: Right.
KJ: And every one of them bombs was turned in either Sheffield or Scotland, there were only two lathes big enough to do them. That’s why if we weren’t certain of the target, we had to bring them back.
CB: Expensive and scarce.
KJ: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Johnson. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-03
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJohnsonKA170403
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:39:45 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Johnson was born in Doncaster. At the start of the war the family was living in Sheffield but his father decided they should move back to Doncaster to avoid bombing. Ken started work as a joiner and later made cables for barrage balloons. Despite being in a reserved occupation, he volunteered to join the RAF and trained in Scotland as an air gunner. He describes gunnery practice against towed targets and corkscrewing the aircraft. He formed a crew in the Operational Training Unit at RAF Bruntingthorpe. He talks about his pilot, Flight Sergeant Harold “Harry” Watkins, who fought in the Finnish Army against the Russians at the start of the war. Ken joined 61 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe flying Lancasters. His first operation was just after D-Day to bomb German armour but as they were too close to allied troops, it was aborted. Ken’s most traumatic experience was during an operation in July 1944, when an aircraft above his dropped its bombs and three bombs hit the aircraft including the rear turret, carrying it away with the rear gunner. On another occasion, anti-aircraft shrapnel missed Ken’s head by two inches. After completing a tour of thirty operations, most of Ken’s crew volunteered for a second tour. Transferred to 9 Squadron, many of his fifteen operations involved dropping the 12,000 lb Tallboy bomb. Ken describes the differences between the rear and mid-upper turrets including their armament. After the war, he served as an RAF driver in Egypt before being demobilised and returning to civilian life. He volunteered with the Royal Observer Corps for a couple of years.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Vivienne Tincombe
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Pending revision of OH transcription
61 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb struck
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bardney
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Dalcross
RAF Skellingthorpe
service vehicle
Tallboy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/PKirbyH1511.2.jpg
f2f26de792cac70f6b6c69e353b3a563
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/AKirbyH150710.1.mp3
415d0a343bc572167309ea13248509d0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kirby, H
Requires
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, this is a recording from Harold Kirby in Pinner, my name is Nigel Moore doing the interview, and this interview is taking place on July the 10th at Mr Kirby’s home in Pinner. So, Mr Kirby, thanks for doing this, and can you tell me something about your life growing up and life before the RAF?
HK: Yes, I’m, I was born in Kilburn, and my parents moved out to Kingsbury when I was eight years old, and I went to Kingsbury County School there. At the time we moved, 1931, it was all countrified there and we had to walk across fields to Burnt Oak to, for shopping, but soon got built up. So that was my early days, and then I got married after the war and lived in Kingsbury for a while until we moved out to Pinner in 1960, that’s right.
NM: So, what about your upbringing and childhood and pre-service life as a youth?
HK: I was not very outgoing at the time, but I had a special friend, Tony, who was more outgoing and he involved me in lots of activities, but I can’t say that I did very much exciting at those days, although we did used to cycle ‘round quite a lot, both of us. So, that was, up to the war, really. [Pause] and, certainly –
NM: Okay. How did you come to join the RAF?
HK: Ah, well, I, my two school friends and myself wanted to fly with the RAF, they were accepted but I was turned down on medical grounds, they became navigators and went off, and then I was called up in, ah, August 1942, and was first, after the initial square-bashing, went to, was posted to Halton, to train as a flight mechanic, one of the first inputs of conscripts to be trained at Halton, yeah. Well, after I’d passed out as a flight mechanic, I had sufficient marks to go straight on to do a fitter’s airframe course, also at Halton, and during the time there, I, we were asked if we would volunteer to become flight engineers, they were getting a bit short, which I did, passed the medical that time, and, but initially, I was posted as a fitter to 460 Squadron, which was at Binbrook, although initially, we and three others went to place called Brayton and found that the 460 Squadron had moved to Binbrook two weeks earlier [slight laugh] but eventually, we were taken there over, stayed there overnight and then taken to Binbrook, and I was there for a bit, six months, mainly repairing aircraft, until I got a call to go to the Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer. I, after I’d passed out from there, I was posted to heavy conversion unit at [pause] Winthorpe and I was, I crewed up with an otherwise all-Australian crew, and one thing that happened there was – this was on Stirlings – on the first pilot’s [pause] flight by himself without an instructor, we couldn’t get the wheels down, and it was my job to wind them down, which I did successfully, but the port undercarriage wouldn’t lock, so we were asked to fly to Woodbridge, you heard of it? It was placed where they had especially long, long runways and also facilities for dealing with crashed aircraft. Well, we duly got, would crashed, Woodbridge, crashed, ah, landed, but the port undercarriage gave way and we spun ‘round, no-one was hurt, and the instructor came down immediately and made my pilot fly back. Other than that, that, everything was okay, and we went to the Lancaster flying school, and eventually landed up at 467 Squadron, which was then at Wadd – Waddington. The, ah, yes, on the first operation, we were coming back, and the rear gunner suddenly shouted ‘Corkscrew!’, and the pilot immediately took action, dived, and a twin-engined aircraft overtook us and flew off in the distance, we didn’t see it again, but he initially, he shot at us, and a bullet went through the rear gunner’s turret and his clothing and cut off his heating supply and he was very aggrieved about that because it got a bit cold! [slight laugh] Anyway, we got back safely. Then, on the [pause] yes, the eleventh operation, it was a daylight one at Trossy Saint Maximin, the, it was a storage site for V1s, and we had done the bombing round and the mid upper shouted, ‘There’s a Lanc above us just opened his bomb doors!’ Before we could do anything, we heard two thumps, one was louder than the other, and a bomb went through the port wing, took away the undercarriage and the – shut off the engine, so I, well, I, I had to keep a look-out because the, I’m sure the wing was mov – waving more than it should do, anyway, we, with three engines, we got left behind. At one stage, this was over France, the rear gunner said ‘There’s two single-engined aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter,’ he said to the upper gunner, ‘I’ll take the first, you take the second,’ but seconds later, which seemed hours, he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires,’ [slight laugh] and one of them escorted us back to the coast and we decided, or at least the pilot decided, to land at Wittering, which, at that time, had a grass runway, and we’d landed there and he got told off for making a big groove in their run – runway. So, but that was the, really, the main thing that happened there. Then, on the sixteenth operation, or after the sixteenth operation, we were posted to 97 Squadron, the Pathfinder Squadron. After the war, I had some correspondence from a pilot’s son, this was well after the war, and in it was a cutting from a newspaper which a pilot had a long [?] talk with a reporter, and he said then, whether it was true or not, that he actually volunteered to become Pathfinders because of the increase in pay, but I don’t know if that’s true or not, but all the crew joined him and we went on to the 97 Squadron, but nothing really much happened there, we were quite successful in getting back what with [?] the time, and in the end we managed forty-four operations altogether. [Pause] Well, after the war finished, we were sent on end-of-tour leave because we’d practically finished the second tour, and, but the rest of the crew were all recalled before I was, to go off back to Australia, so I never really had a chance to say a proper goodbye, but after that [unclear], they were, we were given opportunities to choose what we wanted to do; I chose a radar mechanic’s course because it was a nice long one and sounded interesting, that was at Yatesbury, and I eventually completed the course, was posted to West Ruislip, where I was put in an office and didn’t any, do any radar mechanicking! [laughs] And, but I was fortunate that I was able to live out, live at home, ‘cause my parents at Kingsbury, and commuted until I got my demob, which was six weeks or so later, I’m not sure of the actual date, and so, that is my war service.
NM: Okay, can I take you back to your days in Halton?
HK: Yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about your days training as a fitter.
HK: Well, we were lost in [?], up the hill on one side of the main road, and every morning, we walked down, or marched down, to the, the workshops on the other side of the main road. That, that was about all, except that there was one amusing instance; because there, there were no youngsters there at the time, they had some drums which they thought could be used, and they asked for volunteers to train as, as drummers to help us down the march. It, they got instructions, that went off quite reasonably until the instructor thought, the, the bandmaster or whoever it was, thought we could practise by ourselves. Now, one of the chaps was actually a drummer in a small group, and he decided to invent a, a rhythm, which wasn’t the one that we were taught, and it went – oh, how did it go? Anyway, it was the first time that we did it, we, it was a conga rhythm [laughs], I think it’s the first and only time that a squad’s been conga’d down to the workshops! [laughs] But, apart from that, Halton was quite reasonably enjoyable.
NM: And was it while you were at Halton, or was it while you were at Binbrook on 460 Squadron, that you volunteered to become a flight engineer?
HK: It was while we were at Halton we were asked if we would volunteer, yes.
NM: So you first of all went off to Binbrook on 460 Squadron?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You first of all went to 460 Squadron?
HK: 460 Squadron, yeah.
NM: At Binbrook. Tell me a little bit about, about Binbrook.
HK: Well, then again, it was for, fortunately a, a peacetime station, so we were quite comfortably billeted. Well, that, that, of course, was an Australian squadron as well, so I, I did quite well in knowing the Australians. Each morning, went to the hangars and carried out any repairs and inspections that were necessary, quite enjoyed that, really. Yes, there was a sergeant there, Australian sergeant, apparently he was colour blind, and he, he was telling me that initially, he, he was asked to put camouflage on an aircraft, and when his instructor saw it, he said ‘If you could see that as I could see it, you’d have a fit!’ [Laughs] Yeah, but that, that, sorry, he was quite, quite a good chap [unclear], but –
NM: So, you went from Binbrook to Saint Athans to train -
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: As a flight engineer.
HK: That’s right.
NM: Describe your training.
HK: I, actually, initially, there are few of us, instead of given instructions on a Lancaster, we were started to give us instructions on a York aircraft, but I think it was decided that that sort of job would be given to people who’d already been flying, so we then transferred and did the rest of the course on, on Lancasters. It was [pause] well, was quite enjoyable, I can’t say that there were any real troubles there. [Pause] I’m sorry, I –
NM: That’s fine, that’s okay.
HK: Unless there’s something specific, it’s difficult to remember.
NM: Right, okay, no, that’s absolutely fine, that’s fine. And you, how long did you spend in Saint Athan training, and what type of year was it, and time of year?
HK: It was in December, it would have been ’43, and we were there ‘til about May, I think, in ’44, and then we went to, as I said, to train, initially on Stirlings, before going onto Lancasters and then the squadron.
NM: So you crewed up at the OCU at Winthorpe, did you say?
HK: Yes.
NM: How did the crewing up process go? How did you end up with the crew that you ended up with?
HK: Well, it was just the usual way, and, in the RAF, from, we were in a large hall, and Bill Ryan, the, came up to me and said, would I like to join his crew? And he came, well, then, he introduced, introduced me to the rest, and we got on quite well.
NM: So you were the last to join the crew, were you?
HK: Yes.
NM: And were they an all-Australian crew?
HK: All-Australian, yeah.
NM: And you were the only Englishman there?
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: So, why do you think he asked you? Why do you think he asked you?
HK: I have no idea! [laughs] Perhaps I was the last one, I don’t know, but we got on quite well, actually. I was the youngest, Bill Ryan was twenty-eight, I think. [Pause] The [pause] bomb aimer came from Queensland, he was about thirty-three, wireless operator was not much older than I was, I, I did have pictures of them [sound of leafing through pages].
NM: We can come onto that afterwards, if you want.
HK: Afterwards, yeah. [leafing sounds continue] Give some names.
NM: Let’s go through their names on the record and we can look at the photographs after the interview.
HK: Yeah, right.
NM: So, you go through the names.
HK: Hmm, yes.
NM: Talk, go through the names and describe the names.
HK: Yes, well, there was Bill Ryan, Les Sabine, the navigator, he came from New South Wales, as did Johnny Nichols, the wireless operator, and Jim McPhee was bomb aimer, Norm Johnstone, the mid upper gunner, and myself, and then there was Jim Newing, but we always called him Bert so we didn’t get mixed up with Jim McPhee, the bomb aimer, he was the rear gunner, he came from Perth in western Australia, and, although I lost touch with the crew after the war, some fifty years later, I and my wife went to Perth, and I looked up the telephone directory, there was H.W. Newing, which was his name, and the telephone, and I rang up on the off chance and said ‘Have you ever been to England?’ and he said ‘Yes, who’s speaking?’ I said ‘Harold Kirby’ and he immediately said ‘Oh, our flight engineer!’ [Slight laugh] And he was able to come to the hotel and we had quite a long chat, unfortunately, we had to go off the following day, but by then, I had his address and telephone number, and we went back to Perth all summer, few years later, and he came and took us to meet his wife and have lunch, and so, that, that was very nice. Unfortunately, he’s passed away.
NM: Okay, sad to hear that. So, you went to Lancaster flying school, you say, after you, your?
HK: Yes, at Syerston, that was.
NM: That was, okay, at Syerston. And how long were you there for?
HK: Oh, just a matter of a week or so, I think. I don’t, I can’t remember that.
NM: So, you then joined 467 Squadron at Waddington?
HK: That’s right.
NM: Tell me about squadron life in 467, what was that like?
HK: What was that like? I think I was glad I’d been to 460 Squadron and got used to a lot of the Australians, so it didn’t come as a bit of a shock, but [pause] apart from those two instances that I mentioned, I think we were quite fortunate, getting away unscathed.
NM: So, can you describe general operations, then, on 467 at Waddington?
HK: Well, I, the pilot and navigator, this before an operation, they had a, an initial briefing, and then after that, the rest of the crew joined them to have a general briefing. We were – then we all had to get ready for going off, we had a, a meal beforehand. Coming back, we were debriefed, and contrary to, contrary to what other, I’ve read about other squadrons, we never got rum or anything like that, we just got coffee, and then we went to bed and waited for the next operation. I do remember that, on one occasion, I slept for about eighteen hours non-stop, virtually, that was after two or three night operations on the trot.
NM: So, when you found you were being posted to Pathfinders at –
HK: Yes.
NM: - Coningsby, at 97 Squadron, what was your feeling?
HK: Really, nothing much, we, I didn’t know much about them, and I just wanted to keep with the rest of the crew, suppose.
NM: So, was – how did Coningsby and the Pathfinders differ from a main force station at Waddington and 467?
HK: I can’t say that it was terribly different, different. We were quite fortunate in, again, that, as Waddington was, and Binbrook beforehand and then Coningsby, they were all peacetime stations and we were very comfortably housed, not like some squadrons who had to cope with a lot of mud [slight laugh]! Oh, yes, at Coningsby, we had to be capable of taking over some of the other tasks, such as, I was asked to keep the aircraft on the straight and level for a while, presumably in case the pilot couldn’t hold it, which, that was what I did, although the rear gunner said it was more like a switchback than straight and level [slight laugh]! Then I had to learn the Morse code and do some gunnery practice, and also bomb aiming, so that, that was quite a change. In fact, towards the end of the war, the normal bomb aimer went and helped the navigator with the screens that they had then, and I did the bomb aiming, so it, that was a change. [Pause] Can’t say that there’s much more to add.
NM: So the extra training that you had, then, for, for flying training for straight and level flying and for gunnery and Morse code and bomb aiming, what, how did those extra training comes about?
HK: I remember the bomb, bomb aiming, there was a sort of a, a map that sort of moved on the floor and we were practising sort of with the bomb sights, and then also, in, there was a bombing range at Wainfleet in the Wash, I think I did a, a few goes at that, and then as far as gunnery, we dropped a flare in the water and I was in the nose turret and had a go and see if I could shoot that, and so [pause] I do remember once, I think this was at, at Waddington, for some reason, the brakes failed as we were taxiing ‘round, and the pilot was able to steer by controlling the engines. The normal practice when you start off is to keep the brakes on and push the throttle forward to get maximum speed, power, and then suddenly take the brakes off and shoot off. Well, this time, we had no time to do that, we got slowly to the take-off point and got the green lights and pushed the throttles forward and, fortunately [laughs], took off okay! And then, again, we thought we’d go back to Woodbridge, which we did, and I repaired the brakes and we got back to base. [Pause]
NM: What did you feel about the different roles that you were asked to play, then, between flight engineer and gunnery and bomb aiming?
HK: Well, I quite enjoyed it, the change, yes.
NM: So your crew, altogether, did forty-four operations?
HK: Yes.
NM: And you all stayed together for the whole time?
HK: No, all except the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator, they decided they wouldn’t go on to the second tour, and so we had spare chaps to do that, but I can’t really remember much about them.
NM: How did the crew feel about losing two stalwarts and getting two replacements?
HK: Well, don’t think we were terribly happy, but that was, you know, if they didn’t want to go on, well, that was it. I preferred to carry on rather than go to a training squadron because that could be a bit dicey sometimes.
NM: What would you say about life in Bomber Command overall?
HK: Overall, I had quite a good time, really. [Pause] No, I don’t think I would have chosen anything else, I was quite happy with what I was doing. Bit dicey at times, but that was it.
NM: Do you keep, keep in touch at all with, or – you’ve spoken about the rear gunner you’ve met in Australia, do you keep in touch with squadron associations, reunions?
HK: Oh, I, I kept up with the squadron association, and Path – not, yes, Pathfinder Association, while it was still in force, and then I belonged to the Aircrew Association, we had monthly meetings, and –
NM: Were they locally here?
HK: That was at, that’s at Hemel Hempstead, but there’s another ex-Pathfinder who flew in Mosquitos who lived in Hatch End, and we take it in turns to drive to Hemel, but we were quite fortunate, really, because a lot of the branches had to close because lack of members, but as it’s open to post-war fliers as well, we’ve got quite a few in, in our association, and they help to keep the thing going, in fact, I think all the, apart from one, are post-war fliers, or the, I’m trying to say, the people that control, the – sorry, I, I get mixed up with words sometimes [laughs]! Yeah, but anyway, we keep going.
NM: Okay, that’s fair [?]. How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the war?
HK: Not very well; in fact, I think in the end, we were quite happy to get the memorial. [Pause] Lot of work has been done to get it organised.
NM: Okay, shall we call it a day there?
HK: Hmm?
NM: Shall we finish the interview there? Are you happy with that, or was there anything else you’d like to talk about with your time in Bomber Command?
HK: I think I’ve covered most things. [Pause] I was telling you about my two friends that joined up before I did, both got shot down, one unfortunately on the Nuremburg raid, and the other one, who was on Stirlings, got shot down over France but parachuted to safety and was looked after by the French until he was – the Americans came. But, so, I was quite fortunate, really.
NM: So, did you find out about your friend’s loss during the war, or was it after the, only after the war, did you find?
HK: It was during the war, yes, I kept in touch with my particular school friend’s mother or parents and heard when he’d got shot down; they didn’t know what had happened to him at the time, of course, yes. [Pause] So I did keep up with that school friend after he’d come back from – to England. One peculiar thing happened was, at the time before he got shot down, he, he’d sent me a picture of him and a bomb aimer, his bomb aimer, and I was showing this to my crew, and my bomb aimer said ‘I know that chap, we’ve been doing training together in Canada!’ But he stayed on to do some training others and so he, he didn’t come, get to this country until well after my school friend’s bomb aimer had come here, but both the bomb aimer and my friend were the only two that managed to get out of the aircraft when it was shot.
NM: And you finished up doing a radar mechanic’s course?
HK: Yes.
NM: After the war.
HK: Ah, yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about that.
HK: Well, that was quite enjoyable, learning how the radar worked, and after the war, instead of going back – well, I did go back for a while to my original job, which was in an accounts department, in an accounts department in an electric supplier, I decided I wanted to do something a bit more technical, and the GEC at the time were advertising for people for their laboratories, and I went along and got a job in their patents department, and trained – well, I did evening classes, got BSc, then went on to do the patent agent’s exams and stayed there until I retired, retired in ’83 but went on and did five more years part-time, until they moved the whole place to Chelmsford, I decided that was enough [slight laugh].
NM: And you’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Yes.
NM: Okay, I think that’s probably a very good note to finish on.
HK: [Laughs] Yes!
[Recording beeps: interview paused and restarted]
NM: Just continuing the interview with Mr Kirby.
HK: Yes, there were a couple of instances which I remember now, not actually connected with the enemy, but we were due to fly to Munich to bomb something at Munich, and we had to, we were rooted over the Alps in moonlight, which was a beautiful sight to see, and then another occasion, we flew to one of the eastern countries, oh, I could tell you exactly where it is [sound of leafing through pages], and we had to fly over Sweden at the time, and, yes. No, I can’t [pause as HK continues leafing through pages] Ah, Politz. Yes, I had to fly over Sweden, which was quite exciting ‘cause it was all lit up, they did shoot, but we were told that not to worry, they weren’t going to shoot at us. [Laughs] But those are just two instances I happen to remember.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Kirby. One
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
Format
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00:42:44 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKirbyH150710, PKirbyH1511
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Kirby joined up the Royal Air Force encouraged by two friends, but ended up training as a flight mechanic at RAF Halton on medical grounds. Harold became them airframe fitter, volunteered as a flight engineer, passed the physical but was then posted as a fitter at RAF Binbrook for six months with 460 Squadron. He was then at RAF Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer, then to RAF Winthorpe Heavy Conversion Unit with an all-Australian aircrew. Harold recollects a crash landing at RAF Woodbridge, followed by attending Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Syerston. He was then posted to 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Discusses bombing operations over France V-1 weapons sites, a bomb falling through a wing, and crash landing at RAF Wittering. Harold was eventually posted to 97 Pathfinder Squadron at RAF Coningsby, owing to his array of skills and multiple qualifications. Discusses post war training as radar mechanic, employment at the General Electric Company and reunions with his Australian aircrew.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Language
A language of the resource
eng
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
crash
crewing up
fitter airframe
flight engineer
flight mechanic
forced landing
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mechanics airframe
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Halton
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Wittering
RAF Woodbridge
recruitment
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/558/8825/PStempJ1502.1.jpg
cfe10a514ff45b328abec6f3cbbb1c5e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/558/8825/AStempJE151016.2.mp3
732c55fd46196ec43670b0ef9903c0ee
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stemp, Joe
Joseph Ethelbert Stemp
J E Stemp
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stemp, JE
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Joe Stemp (1602809 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 578 and 77 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: This is an interview with Joe Stemp, a navigator on 578 Squadron and later on 77 Squadron. My name is Adam Sutch and the interview is being conducted at Upton St Leonards, Gloucestershire for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. Joe, thank’s so much for agreeing to the interview. I’d like to set the scene by asking you to describe your life before joining the Air Force. A little bit about your home, your parents and brothers and sisters, that sort of thing.
JS: I had a very happy boyhood really. I had one brother and one sister and I’ve always been a very independent guy. I’d always earnt money and done jobs on the side. I was actually working full time in an advertising, not an advertising, a housing agency at sixteen and doing quite well. And I suddenly realised, a friend and I, that we’d like to join the Air Force. So, we went to Oxford University and did that exam over a weekend there. And out of the thirty people who were there, ten straight away were cancelled, scrubbed, because they were colour-blind. That left twenty of us and we had this serious examination. When we finished they called us in, one by one. My friend went in before me and he came out nearly in tears. I said ‘Why?’, ‘He wasn’t the type of pilot we need, he hadn’t got the right attitude’. I said, ‘Why?’, ‘They asked me what I was doing when Mr Churchill said “Every man, woman and child should do something”’, ‘What did you do?’ Well he couldn’t do anything ‘cause he didn’t want to give his age away. So that was it, well I followed him in and they asked me the same question. But being this cocky bugger I used to be I had an answer for. ‘Well Sir, you can see I did pass the exam but I’ve had to study a lot at home in the evenings to make sure’. ‘Good lad, that’s the spirit.’ I’m in the Air Force, I’m in the RAF Association [laughs] and I never saw him after I joined. He was shot down actually eventually in Burma flying Spitfire, Hurricane. But I never saw him again, we were great mates but it was just one of those things. And so I joined straight away then.
AS: What did your parents feel about you joining?
JS: They didn’t say a word, I was most surprised. Now my father, who would have had a go, didn’t even complain. My brother was sixteen years old. He was doing an ITW course at sixteen years old and he did a dinghy drill course down into Torbay harbour. A bloody dinghy fell over, he went in, and in the water it was all the oil from the boats around, got into his ear and caused trouble in his ear. Eventually he had to have it operated on and he lost the hearing of his right ear. They gave him the option. You can stay in the Air Force and everything will be alright but you’ll never fly again, or you can leave on a pension. No answer to that. He left on a pension, got a great degree, ‘cause he was a clever bugger anyway. But, all those, he died last week, ninety years old.
AS: Oh, I’m sorry.
JS: But I was always surprised my father allowed us to go and do this.
AS: And you were under age as well?
JS: I was seventeen.
AS: And when did you leave school? Did you get matric?
JS: No, I didn’t stop on for it, I left the school at sixteen. I should have stayed on ‘cause I went to Ealing Grammar School and I was doing alright but I just suddenly thought ‘I must get on’. I wanted to get on and do something and there didn’t seem to be. We moved the school, the younger children went, were evacuated. We went to a school in Ealing which was girls as well as boys and it was a waste of time, we spent most of our time mucking about with the girls. [inaudible] it was ridiculous, I left and I’ve worked hard ever since and I’ve always been very independent.
AS: What year was this we’re talking about when you joined the Air Force?
JS: Oh, ’40, ’41.
AS: So, you’d been in Ealing, or London, when the Battle of Britain was going on?
JS: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: What was that like, the?
JS: It wasn’t so bad in Ealing but London was awful. I remember going to confession one Saturday night with some friends of mine, we were in Ealing, in South Ealing, and we looked up towards London ‘cause there were bright lights in the sky and it was the time when the Germans came over and had those terrible raids they did on the East End London, they really did. But because it was bad for morale they never talked too much about it did they, they kept it a bit quiet. They mentioned there was a bit of, a bit of bombing. They did terrible things the Germans. You didn’t have to be a navigator you got yourself on the end of the River Thames came up and you’re there!
AS: Glinting in the moonlight?
JS: Absolutely, yeah. [laughs]
AS: So, in those days I suppose Ealing was separated from London?
JS: Well Ealing’s always been a, always a very private sort of borough, queen of the suburbs style of thing you know? They’ve always fancied their chances and it was a very nice place to live really. I went to work for this Barrett and he was as drunk as a lord and his sons had gone in the Army and he couldn’t run the business so. I know this sounds silly but I was sixteen and I was running his business for a year. Then after that I asked for a rise and he gave me about half a crown or something, so I told him to stuff his job and I joined the Air Force.
AS: That was how you came to join the Air Force?
JS: Yeah. [laughs]
AS: Why the Air Force?
JS: I always fancied being a pilot. Because when I was a lad I used to go to Heston and, Heston airport in those days, and I used to love, and I always wanted to be able to fly. It was one of those things that I wanted to do, it was something that really I took on. But do you know why I wasn’t a pilot?
AS: No.
JS: I did the whole course, and they cancelled and blew me out. This is the honest truth, we did during the final course, and we took off and he told me what to do. And he said ‘Do you know where you are, son?’ And I said ‘Yes’, ‘OK.’, and we carried on and he said ‘Do you know?’ And I suddenly realised, I hadn’t a bloody clue where I was and I wasn’t really worried. But I was enjoying being up there. And at the end of the course he said to me ‘You’ve done very well’. he said, ‘but there’s only one thing wrong, you haven’t known where you’ve been from the moment we took off’. And he was right. And they scrubbed me and what did they make me? A navigator. Isn’t that typical of the Air Force?
AS: That’s a wonderful story and it doesn’t surprise me.
JS: No.
AS: A bit. Can you rewind a little? You, where did you sign on?
JS: Um, good question. I think it was Regents’ Park, I think. It was up at Regents’ Park area I know.
AS: OK.
JS: Because those hotels up there, aircrew were all based up there, trainee aircrew.
AS: Oh, this is Arty Tarty is it? This is the aircrew reception centre?
JS: Yes, that’s it. Yes.
AS: And everybody went there?
JS: They all went there regardless at one time and from then on, we just followed on. I finished up actually leaving there and going to South Africa, you mentioned South Africa, and I actually got my wings in South Africa. I enjoyed my South African trip I was out there for some months and thoroughly enjoyed it. Flying every day of course ‘cause the weather was suitable. I was looking through my logbook last night, ‘cause I haven’t looked at the logbook for years, at the amount of flying we did out there.
AS: So, you signed on and they sent you to Regents’ Park?
JS: Um.
AS: And then what happened between then and going to Oxford for this exam? Could you tell me about the exam that you took?
JS: Oh, the exam was before then.
AS: Ah, OK.
JS: Oh, that was the exam that we had the weekend. Thirty people turned up at Oxford University, the object being they were going to check us out ‘cause they were looking for pilots. Well, as I told you the first ten straight away were colour-blind, so they scrubbed them, leaving twenty of us. And it was quite a severe examination afterwards you know, mental examination. I managed to finish all right, I wasn’t that special. My friend was brilliant and he came top. So, he went in first of all for what they called the commanding officer’s interview or something. And the officers sat round this table and asked questions of the guy. And it was a shame really ‘cause they caught him on the hop really, and then they finally said to him ‘You’re not the type of person we want as a pilot, you haven’t got the right spirit at all’. And he was in tears, he came out and sat beside me and said ‘What do I, what do I do Joe?’ I said ‘I can’t believe.’ [inaudible] So I thought ‘Christ’. So I went in about two hours later and they asked me the same questions but I was a bit quicker on the mark than he was. I said ‘As a matter of fact sir’, I said ‘if you noticed I have passed the exam? Not desperately well but I passed because I studied a lot each evening to make sure I did pass your’. ‘Good lad, that’s the spirit.’ I’m in. [laughter]
AS: Excellent. So, you passed at Oxford?
JS: Um.
AS: Did you then go home and await some sort of call up or?
JS: I went home and waited and I was called up within about two or three weeks.
AS: As at that stage, PNB? Volunteer reserve?
JS: Yeah. Volunteer reserve.
AS: As a pilot navigator bomber? Bomb aimer?
JS: Yeah. A PNB yeah.
AS: Front of the aeroplane, executive office?
JS: [laughter]. Yes.
AS: OK, you’re called up and then presumably they had to try and make an airman of you, did they?
JS: Well they did. I enjoyed it really except that when I was first flying, I was OK and even the instructor that took me on the final check, he said ‘You fly well, son’. He said ‘but what’s the bloody good of having you up there if you don’t know where the hell you are?’ Which is true. When you’re seventeen years old you’re so excited you don’t care about where you are. [laughs] And it was as easy as that.
AS: Picking up on the excitement.
JS: Um.
AS: Do you think that the RAF knew you’d lied about your age and didn’t worry about it?
JS: Oh yes, I’m sure they did. I was seventeen, and I’m sure they, my brother was sixteen. When he left the Air Force with this pension, he was seventeen years old when he left, and he went straight to university, got a good degree, eventually finished up in Australia. He died last week, he was ninety, but he’d had a pension since he was seventeen years old. Isn’t that amazing?
AS: Turned out nice then didn’t it?
JS: Um.
AS: OK, so you were, you were in the Air Force starting pilot training, in this country was it?
JS: Yes.
AS: Whereabouts was that, and what were you flying?
JS: Tiger Moths. Reading. There was an airfield at Reading, we used to pass it on the motorway going down, can’t think what it’s called. Theale is it?
AS: Yeah.
JS: Theale I think it was, and we would train there, it was a pilot training school.
AS: And this was 1941?
JS: ’41. Um, yeah, long time ago.
AS: So still this was before the great move, the move to take pilot training abroad I suppose?
JS: Yes, yes and no it was, they were picking up people they wanted, particular people. Even the guy who, instructor, who interviewed me at the end on the final flight, even he said ‘You fly very well, I’m very pleased the training has been good, you fly very well, but what’s the bloody good of having you up here if you don’t know where you are?’ Which is absolutely true and when you’re seventeen it’s all exciting, you don’t, you don’t even worry whether you’re going to get down again or not you know? Yeah.
AS: You wanted to be a pilot, what sort of pilot? Fighter pilot?
JS: I wanted to be a fighter pilot, I didn’t want to get anything to do with bombers. I was a little disappointed. I ended up, as you know, I did a tour with 77 Squadron but, it wasn’t what I wanted but then that’s the way life works.
AS: So, you did, you soloed, did you solo?
JS: Yes, oh yeah.
AS: Marvellous, how many hours roughly did you do?
JS: I don’t know, I don’t honestly remember now. I quite enjoyed flying, it was, it was much easier than I thought it would be. The thing, it’s exciting really. You’re seventeen years old and you’re flying. And honestly, it’s nothing to, you can’t get over it really. It’s amazing.
AS: Superb. So, when you were told that your pilot training was going no further, what did you feel like, what?
JS: Heartbroken. I used to say that’s the day I started drinking. But anyway, I waited around a lot and I did all sorts of odds and ends, waiting for another course, and the other course was in South Africa. So, I went to South Africa to do my navigator course.
Unknown: Interruption.
JS: Went to this hotel at Harrogate. All the groups, gunners, wireless operators, pilots, navigators, all in this big room, talking to each other, and we meet each other and if we fancy somebody and start talking, the way like I’ve met you today, they’d say ‘We could be alright together’. Then they met somebody else, so I met the rear, the mid-upper gunner was a Scot, nice guy, and the flight engineer was a Welsh guy, that’s the chap who had to become into aircrew or else. Now the three of us got on so well. They, in turn, had friends, before I knew where I was I’m one of six. The next thing is we’ve got Henley, this is the skipper, wandering around looking for. And he picks, out of the blue, you know. [inaudible] I thought perhaps, I’d heard about crews in the past, how they all get on. They don’t. But of course, you can get a group, I mean it’s very difficult to say seven blokes getting on together, isn’t it?
AS: Um.
JS: But we did, three of us did very well. And we managed with the others, we didn’t fight or anything. But I told you I wasn’t a friend of the skipper’s and I never was going to be.
AS: But in the air you were a disciplined –
JS: In the air, we were good, in fact in the air only two of us carried on talking. We had no conversation in the air unless it was necessary. The only person to converse with him, me, because I’d have to, the others only if they had too. There was no common chat amongst us. I’ve been listening to other people and they said they talked all the time. They didn’t in my crew, my crew only spoke when they had to. I think possibly it was a good idea, I don’t know. I know that, put it this way, I never felt afraid. It wasn’t, or upset, it wasn’t until old Charlie Whatsisname blew up in front of me that I suddenly thought ‘Christ Almighty, it’s dangerous up here’. And it was a bomber, do you know it was a Lancaster dropped the bombs?
AS: Um.
JS: And after that I was a bit wary, a bit wary.
AS: And the Lancasters were flying higher than you obviously, yeah?
JS: Um. Do you know something? Think about it there were, there were seven of us obviously in the crew, and you could often get such difference in seven people.
AS: Did you see this on, on other crews that?
JS: Yes, I did. Some crews I remained friendly with until the end, and when we retired they were coming up for their finish. You had to do thirty, you had to do thirty ops. Well I done eighteen with 77, 578 and I had twelve to do and I signed up with 77 and everything went fine from then onwards. They liked us. I never forget going to the first meeting and the navigation leader said ‘Now look here’. he said ‘I’ll tell you new lads what’s happening’. So I said ‘Well we might be new lads but we do know’. He said ‘I’ve done twelve ops already’, I said ‘Oh, aren’t you clever?’ I said. ‘I’ve done twelve, I’ve done eighteen’. I said. ‘Oh.’ So in other words don’t give us any bullshit ‘cause we know what it’s all about. [chuckles]
AS: Can I wind you back a bit and cover the period from leaving OTU to joining the squadron? What happened when you joined the squadron? What was that process like?
JS: That’s a good question. It was very good because there were about five squadrons in this billet and I didn’t realise it, but they all knew each other and they’d all been flying together. But after we joined them everything, not because of us, but everything seemed to go wrong and we ended up with just two. They lost three.
AS: Three crews?
JS: Just didn’t come back, you know?
AS: Wow.
JS: But when we first went there everybody was, I mean, give you for example. Oh, I must tell you this, the first night I’m there I go to bed and I was a Catholic.
AS: Um.
JS: And you had to put your name on the back, it told you what religion you were, on the back of my bed. Well I went to bed about eleven o’clock time, going off to sleep. I was woken very severely about an hour later by a chap who’d obviously been drinking and said to me ‘That’s the other man’. He said to me, ‘You a Catholic?’ I said ‘For Christ’s sake man’, I said ‘It’s gone twelve o’clock, what are you worried about?’ ‘Are you a Catholic?’ So, I said ‘Yes’. So with that, he opens his pocket and he throws a little, you know, brown leather wallet, that big. He threw it to me and he said ‘Here are, you better have it. My old lady gave me this, what a lot of bullshit’. I said ‘For God’s sake, what is it?’ So I opened it up and inside was a Sacred Heart and one or two medals that his mother had given to him. I said ‘You can’t give that away’. ‘Why not?’ he said. He was a bit pissed anyway, I said ‘Because frankly your mother gave you that, it’s for you to keep’. ‘I don’t want to know about it’. So I said ‘Look’. He said ‘I’ll chuck it on the fire’. ‘Don’t chuck it’. Those fires in the middle of the room.
AS: Um.
JS: I said ‘Don’t chuck it, leave it, we’ll talk about it tomorrow’. So in the morning, when I woke up, he was fast asleep of course, I waited until he got round, came round, and I went up to him and I said ‘Look, this was silly last night, you must be sober now. You were pissed out of your mind last night, you didn’t know what you were talking about. Talking about your mother that way, and throwing that and giving this’. ‘I told you, I didn’t want the bloody thing. I don’t know why she give it to me. It’s an embarrassment’. I said, ‘What are you saying?’ I said. He said ‘Do you want it?’ ‘Well rather than do what you said’, I said ‘yes’. So I kept it. That night, he and his crew disappeared and were never, ever seen again. Isn’t that amazing?
AS: It’s, it’s amazing, but not unexpected. Do you, did you see other examples of that, of crews that knew they weren’t going to come?
JS: No.
AS: Back?
JS: I have seen people say that to me, they had a feeling. ‘Cause I’ve heard people say ‘Our leave is due Friday, let’s hope to Christ we don’t have anything between Wednesday and Friday to stop us going’. And they say, and that was always a bit of a dangerous time because it happened so often, that your leave was going to be on Friday, Wednesday night you don’t come back. The times I’ve seen it happen. You’re always glad when it’s done and when you’ve been and then you’ve got some more to come. Just waiting for one day off, very tricky. But I never forget him and the next day I took it to him and I said ‘Look, I still feel you should have this’, I said ‘ because I don’t feel right to have it. I know what it means to lots of people, apparently it doesn’t mean anything to you’, I said ‘but the fact is your mother gave it to you, would have made you change your mind and seriously’. ‘Don’t talk a lot of bleeding nonsense’, he said. I said ‘You’re sure now?’ He said ‘I’ve told you, that’s it. I don’t want to hear about it’. So, OK. And that night they went out and they were never, ever seen again. We don’t know whether they were kept, well we know they weren’t prisoners of war. They were blown out of the sky, it’s as easy as that. And so, I thought ‘Christ Almighty, I wonder if it’ll be better for me’. So it got that way and when I told my crew about this, before we took off, every time before we took off, they all went. And once, on one occasion, ‘Oh Christ, I left it in my best blue’. ‘We can’t have that’ they said. So, I had to get a WAAF quickly to bring a jeep round, rush round to my place to pick it up otherwise they weren’t gonna go, they said. It’s amazing, isn’t it, how these things happen? I think people do have such things as lucky charms and they rely on them you know? [inaudible] insist that everything is alright.
AS: Yeah, I think, I know you’re absolutely right. Did you as an individual, and you as a crew, always feel that you were going to come back?
JS: I did, yeah. I did. I never gave it a thought, I always thought I would come back. Even on a Friday night when I’m due to go on leave. I always felt it’s a bit tricky but I’m going to make it. Because the only thing was that I had a dread of being shot down in the water. Because I was the only swimmer in my crew, and we did a couple of tests, and it was absolutely ridiculous. As I was the only swimmer, I was the main person. I had to get up on the diving board, suit on and boots off, jump in the water, find the dinghy, turn it upside down to the proper way, then try and pick the others up who were hanging around the edge of the bath. Well I did this and got one or two of them but the skipper, he would not get off the wall. And the instructor who was doing the swimming said, he said ‘Get in there’, and he pushed and he went in the water. He went like mad, my skipper, nearly bloody drowned me, and in the end the instructor realised that I was in trouble. So the instructor jumped in beside me, between the two of us we managed to get the bugger out, and I thought if ever anything happens and it’s in the sea we’re finished. We’re finished. No case of, can you swim? We’ll be finished.
AS: So, this was dinghy drills in a swimming pool?
JS: In a swimming baths, yeah.
AS: Yeah, OK. What about drills on the aeroplane? Did you, as a crew, really practice those things, evacuating the aeroplane things like that?
JS: No, no, never. No, never. I, that’s a good question. But when you think back, I was never, I don’t recall, we ever worked on how we would get out should there be an incident. I don’t think we thought there would be an incident. I think we were going to be lucky. They always said as long as they got him with us, meaning me, we’re going to be alright. But the only time I never flew with that crew, the doctor said I mustn’t fly for twenty-four hours, nothing’s going to happen I thought, but something did. And that meant to say that they had to go with a spare and they went mad, they got shot to pieces. Honestly, I’m not exaggerating. I waited until the last aircraft had come back in the early hours of the morning and I thought ‘Christ’. We hadn’t even heard a message then suddenly, in a very dim way over the line, came a call to say they are coming but they’ve been badly damaged and they might have trouble, but they were hoping to make it, and they did. They made it and the next thing I was worried about was would the bloody thing turn over when they landed, like it often does. So the WAAF and I waited, and they landed, and everybody stood by, and it landed and it stopped. And we all rushed out there, and the crew, apart from the skipper who was panic stricken. He couldn’t move, he was panic stricken. But the crew come out, lit the old fags up. ‘If he don’t come, we’re not going.’ [laughs] And we had a terrible problem. I was the lucky charm, without me they said they wouldn’t have managed. Silly of course but that’s –
AS: Well it isn’t is it? It’s a really good insight to the crew as an organism. The fact that you didn’t necessarily get on, that you were the charm of the crew.
JS: Another thing, the fact that I was a Catholic. I said ‘That’s got nothing to do it with it, the fact that I’m a Catholic’. ‘Well you don’t fuck about the way we do’, they said, which I didn’t. I drank with them but they were shagging all over the place, my crew, they were terrible. And the skipper was the world’s worst. I told you they thought I was queer. That’s why they called these awful women, and they’d introduce those awful women to me. Why I never forget one girl, it was a shame. She was as thick as two planks and they introduced her to me and said ‘Joe’s alright, he’ll look after you’. She said ‘He’s a nice bloke, you’ll like him’. I didn’t want to know her, and she insisted I go home and meet her parents, and I thought ‘That’s the last thing you want to do’. And I kept. [laughs] As I say my, my crew were awful in that respect.
AS: How about the local population? ‘Cause Burn is, is in the part of Yorkshire where my family come from.
JS: Yeah.
AS: So, you have Goole, Selby, all around there.
JS: Burn.
AS: Yeah, what were the local population like to the aircrew?
JS: Very good, very good. The only thing that used to upset me was they had a lot of Italian workers in the fields.
AS: Prisoners?
JS: Um.
AS: OK.
JS: And I remember standing one night, finishing a fag and watching these Italians working, and they were watching us taking off, and you can imagine what they were thinking. ‘Where the hell are they going, who are they going to bomb?’ you know? And I had to go into hospital for a couple of days and while I was in there they, this Italian guy came in and he was in a very, very bad way, and his mates used to come and visit him and he said to me, one of his mates, his English wasn’t bad. ‘Are you a Catholic?’ And I said ‘Yes, I am’. ‘You couldn’t have words with him, would you?’ So I said ‘Surely’, I said. He said ‘He’s not going to go home you know, he’ll never go home again. We don’t know what to say to him, perhaps if you talk kindly to him, he might take it from you’. So I said ‘I’ll try’. So I did when the chap passed, before he passed out, I said to him ‘Look I’m sorry you’re like this, it’s such a shame because you look like a nice guy and you could make quite a world of it’. But so, I said ‘The best thing to do is do what they say and carry on because the war won’t last forever and then you can go home’. But he died about a week later.
AS: Wow.
JS: He just died and I felt bad about it. In fact, I even went to the funeral. I know I shouldn’t have done but I felt bad about it ‘cause he seemed such a nice guy. When you think about it, it’s very serious really.
AS: They’re people. Under the uniform we’re all people aren’t we?
JS: Um.
AS: So, whereabouts locally would you go from Burn as a crew, you know, for drinking or socialising?
JS: Oh, in York.
AS: In York, Betty’s Bar?
JS: Um. There was a, there was a pub in Burn but it was packed. We had our own pub in York which we used to attend and we used to keep, it was very wrong of us really, we used to keep the Yanks out. ‘Cause the Yanks tried to get in our pubs and we said ‘It’s not on, this is for British staff only.’
AS: Which pub was this in York?
JS: I can’t think which one it was but I know that, ‘cause the girls used to follow us rotten you know? In York ‘cause most girls wouldn’t have a lot to do with aircrew. Most regular girls as I call it, because they couldn’t guarantee, as they said, that you’d be here tomorrow, so we used to get all the tarts really. Well the lads didn’t mind, but I did. [aughs]
AS: Yeah, it’s an interesting slant on wartime. So, when you finished OUT, did you get a big notice up on the wall posting you to a squadron? What happened, what was the process?
JS: I cannot remember.
AS: OK.
JS: I think there was a group of us that had started at the same time, but we didn’t all go to the same squadron. I think, if I recall, we were posted to different squadrons. One here, two there and so on and so forth. ‘Cause in Yorkshire, Yorkshire was the home of the Halifax.
AS: 4 Group, yeah.
JS: And all the crews in it, that was Yorkshire, the Lancasters were lower down. So, what we did was, we all knew each other as crews, we used to meet and have a chat. There was quite a bit of rivalry between them and quite good humour too, between some of the crews. When I look back now it was a very difficult situation, because if somebody was killed or whatever, what did you do? We had this big joke, you’ve probably heard it, ‘Can I have your breakfast if you don’t come back?’ And that’s the way they were looking at it, ‘cause there was no other way of doing it. You couldn’t cry your eyes out about it ‘cause it could be you the next time. So, you had to get on with it, that was the way it was. ‘Could I have your breakfast tomorrow if you don’t come back?’ Um.
AS: Was, I know you talked about leave. Was there much contact, did you go home on leave? Did you have contact with family or?
JS: I was lucky I always went home on leave. I had money in my pocket, a good family who were dying to see me and I enjoyed it. But one of my crew, it was really silly, he’d been shagging around and leave came up and he got a dose. And I said, I went to hospital with him, and we sorted it out. And they reckon, he had a week in hospital and then he had to take it easy for a month or something and that was the way it was. And in the middle of all this he got involved with this girl again and I said ‘Look, Tom, you mustn’t do this’. I said, ‘What’s going to happen when leave comes round, you’re surely not going to go home and start on your own missus are you?’ He said ‘What else can I?’ I said ‘Well can’t you tell her some yarn about the fact that you’ve had trouble and that you can’t use it, but it’ll be alright in the future?’ ‘Um, I’ll try’, he says. So he did. So off we go on leave, when I got back after the weeks holiday he had my motorbike and he was waiting at the station for us. I said ‘When did you get back?’ He said ‘Oh, don’t tell me Joe, I’ve been home a week’. I said ‘Why?’ He said ‘I realised straight away when I got home that she knew there was something wrong. I had a terrible conscience, I didn’t tell her, and we just didn’t get on, and I sent myself a telegram to say “Return immediately”’. ‘Oh Christ’, I said. He said ‘What else could I do?’ I said ‘Well, I suppose you’re right, it’s a fact because you didn’t want to give it to your wife.’ Yeah.
AS: So, when you turn up on the, on 578, what happened then? You’re allocated to a flight? Or do you go on ops straight away or?
JS: Yes, more or less. When we realised the squadron was breaking down and we were going to be posted, we weren’t all posted to the same squadron. We were posted to 77 Squadron and when I got there, there were only two other crews came with us. So I should think the rest of the crews were split around the group ‘cause it was 4 Group. And I remember going in, I think I said a moment ago, when they had their first check up and the navigator was telling us new ones what to do and what it was like up there. And we said to him ‘How many ops have you done?’ He said, ‘I’ve done twelve’. And we said ‘That’s nothing’. [laughs]
AS: Get some in.
JS: ‘We’ve done eighteen’. But no, it was, it was difficult. I feel that on reflection it made one very hard. You had to be hard, it’s no good crying your eyes out is it about it? ‘Cause it could happen to you any time or anyone you were with.
AS: Doing the job when you’re, whether it’s 578 or 77 Squadron. Could you take me through a typical operation from waking up in the morning until it’s all finished?
JS: Well sometimes we’d wake up in the morning like today. And the navigators and the pilots would be called down, and we’d go to a meeting and they’d say ‘There’s going to be ops tonight, we haven’t got conditions at the moment but we’ll be calling an order about four o’clock.’ So we thought ‘Right that’s it, we’re on ops tonight’. And about four o’clock we used to go, and initially only the pilot and the navigator went and we listened to the place where we bombing, what we were trying to achieve, and so on and so forth. And with that we then opened the door and let the rest of the crew in and told them where we were going and what we were going to do and that’s how it was.
AS: So how did?
JS: It could only be hours before we took off.
AS: So, when did you do your flight planning?
JS: Well, flight planning. On the spot really.
AS: So was that after your pilot, nav briefing. Or after everybody had had the briefing?
JS: Well after the pilot, nav briefing we had an idea what we were going to do and where we were going to go, but how we were going to get there wasn’t ever discussed. It was never discussed. In fact, it wasn’t until just prior to going that we would talk about it. They used to discuss which way we would mostly take off and get to Reading, and at Reading it turned on to our target. I know it sounds silly but we were going anywhere until we got to Reading then we made for the target through Reading. That was our group you know?
AS: So 4 Group would fly across England, presumably avoiding London?
JS: Yes.
AS: And you’d have worked out your flight plan by then?
JS: Oh yeah. I tell you what did happen to me one night. We’d had a very long trip and we were very tired and coming back across France, I started to fall asleep. And I did just for a second or so and when I woke up, I looked around the aircraft, the gunners had undone their guns, everybody had heads down, including the skipper who was fast asleep. And we were over the, we were over England, but nobody knew where, ‘cause they were all asleep and didn’t care and I looked around and thought ‘Christ Almighty’. So I woke Ken up, he was the skipper, I said ‘Look, Ken, I don’t know how long you’ve been like this’. I said. He said ‘Oh it’s alright, it’s been on automatic pilot’. I said ‘I know it’s been on automatic, but how long is it supposed to be on for? Where are we, do you know?’ So he said ‘No, I haven’t a clue’. I said ‘That’s marvellous isn’t it?’ So I looked around, we woke the crew up and I thought ‘This is terrible, we could be anywhere, I know we’re heading north’ and then the Wash suddenly came into view. I could not believe my luck,. ‘cause as soon as I saw the Wash we knew where we were. But if we hadn’t have seen the Wash and it had gone on we could have been Scotland, run out of fuel and all had to bail out. That’s happened before as well.
AS: To you?
JS: No, no.
AS: To others on the squadron?
JS: I’ve had friends that it’s happened to, they just run out. Twice or three times – [knocking]
AS: So, Joe, back to a discussion on a typical mission if there is such a thing. You’d get briefed, did you air test the aeroplanes in the morning?
JS: I was only thinking that the other day when I looked at my book. We did very few air tests, very few air tests. I looked in here the other day. It’s amazing really, you’d have thought we’d have done more wouldn’t you? Because things were wrong with the aircraft and the ground staff, used to, when we got back, immediately jump on them to put it right. Nothing worse than an aircraft going wrong in the sky, you can’t do a thing about it you see, it’s got to be right when it leaves.
AS: Was that always the case with you, did you have issues in the air?
JS: Not really. I think I told you about, in there. [rustling of paper]
AS: But not mechanical issues? You didn’t have mechanical issues?
JS: Look at some of these. Silly things. Have you read this?
AS: No, not yet.
JS: Just have a quick look at it.
AS: OK. So, Joe, we’ll pick it up again, we’ve just had our tea. We were, we were talking about air tests. The fact that the aircraft, you didn’t test the aircraft very much so you had complete faith in the men?
JS: In the maintenance crew.
AS: Did you, did you used to socialise with them as well?
JS: Yes and no. Difficult. They all lived on the site which was miles from anywhere, outside and they used to live out there, virtually the maintenance crew.
AS: With the aircraft?
JS: Yeah. Awful. I’ve been out there sometimes in the winter, when they’ve asked us to come out, where we’ve had to sweep the snow off the aircraft to get it to go off and up, you know? The Halifax was a nice aircraft, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I’ve only ever once been in a Lancaster, I didn’t like it particularly, you had to climb over lots of beams and things to get to where you fly. But with the Halifax there was plenty of room inside. And we had also, on a couple of occasions, Ken said to me ‘You better check that bugger’, meaning the American that we’d got, or Canadian that was the mid-upper gunner, the turret under the aircraft, little turret.
AS: OK.
JS: And they used to fly on there, but they didn’t. I mean I never said anything, I didn’t drop them in it. But I’ve been back and they’ve been lying there half asleep having a smoke. They never went out of the turret.
AS: So, the Halifax’s were fitted, your Halifax’s were fitted with?
JS: Some of them were yeah.
AS: OK, yeah. Did you mostly do navigation or was bomb aiming your speciality?
JS: Bomb aiming was my speciality with 77. Actually, I was going to get an award. Well I got the award but because of a silly incident at Scarborough, I lost it. I didn’t realise it but they took away my DFM and they took away his DFC, very unhappy he was. My fault.
AS: So, you’d been recommended for?
JS: Oh, before then I was, on one occasion, I forget which one it was ‘cause I never made a fuss in my logbook. Some people wrote things in the logbooks but I never did. On one occasion I went in and I was a bomb aimer and I dropped the bombs so badly to the ground that it started one end of the rail centre, right down the line, through the station, out the other side, and ruined. I cut the whole bloody railway out of the business. No, I had a letter from them to express, to express you know what a good job I’d done. The next thing I know is, I’m recommended for the DFM. Oh, OK. But after the incident at Scarborough it wasn’t quite the same, um. I’ve seen some funny things happen to other people. They didn’t talk about it very much but you obviously know about LMF?
AS: Yeah.
JS: And we had, at one period, quite a lot of LMF. Except for one guy and he was, he came from New Zealand and his skipper came from New Zealand and he used to be a nice guy, bomb aimer. And I got friendly with him but he was very religious, and he’d done about sixteen ops and he turned to me one night and said ‘I can’t do this anymore, Joe’. I said ‘What’s up?’ ‘I can’t do this bombing business anymore’. I said ‘Well what can you do about it, you can’t say I don’t want to do it’. ‘Oh, I can’. I said ‘But’. He said ‘Well what am I going to do?’ I said ‘I don’t know. Think about it, think about it’. Well he did. He complained that he didn’t want to, and he explained that he didn’t want to fly anymore, and I thought they would go for him but they didn’t. They said ‘Look sunshine, you’ve done over eighteen ops so far, what are you worried about?’ And they stopped and took him off and they sent him home. So he was a very lucky guy.
AS: This was on 578 or 77?
JS: On 578.
AS: So, what happened to some of the other guys who, as you say, went LMF?
JS: Oh God, terrible. When I first joined 77 I was walking down towards the Sergeants’ Mess and I saw a gang of airmen that did all the dirty work, clearing up. And in charge was a bloke who’d obviously been a sergeant ‘cause they’d ripped the sergeants stripes and you could see where they’d been, in charge of this dirty gang. And as I got up close to him I realised it was a friend of mine called Sandy Mount, and I said ‘Hello Sandy, what’s?’ ‘I don’t know you Joe’, he said. Funny thing to say, ‘I don’t know you Joe’. And off he went with his gang. I went into the Mess, I’d only just joined the squadron, and I said, I mentioned it. ‘Oh, don’t talk about him’. I said ‘What is he doing?’ ‘He’s waiting to be sent away to the LMF place down on the coast where they really give you a bad time’. I said ‘Why?’ Apparently the first time he said there was something wrong with the aircraft so they cancelled it. The second time something else went wrong and he returned early, the third time, on the fourth time they realised that he didn’t want to do what he was doing, and they said he’d got to come off flying.
AS: And punished?
JS: And they took him off, called him LMF and put him in charge of all the blokes doing the shit [inaudible]. There was this New Zealand guy that I knew he done about sixteen ops and he turned to me, he was very religious, and he turned to me one night and said ‘Joe I can’t do this anymore. I don’t know why we’ve got into our states with this war, it’s not on’. I said ‘Well you can’t do much about it now, you’ve got to wait until you finish your tour’. ‘Oh, I don’t think I could’, he said. Well his pilot, who was also a New Zealander, went up to the CO and they explained the situation and the CO was very good. He said ‘I can’t say LMF, I can’t blame him ‘cause he’s an extremely good navigator’, he says. ‘but we can’t have this sort of thing ‘cause if anybody else starts doing what he does, what do we do?’ So, they sacked him but they sent him home.
AS: Lucky man.
JS: Which was the best thing they could have done. He wasn’t a coward, it wasn’t that, he just said ‘I can’t do this anymore. What are we doing, all this dropping bombs on people and killing them?’ He said ‘It’s not on, this isn’t warfare is it?’ His skipper actually, terrible part about [unclear} it was, I must tell you this, hell of a nice guy, they only had one or two ops left to do, the crew, not him ‘cause he’d gone. And they went missing. Never seen. So the skipper was killed, obviously the aircraft disappeared, isn’t that amazing? But he didn’t go with them ‘cause he’d gone home to New Zealand.
AS: Premonition or something.
JS: Isn’t it strange, this world how it works isn’t it?
AS: Absolutely. You mentioned he, the navigator, bomb aimer couldn’t go on bombing. What was the feeling in the country, say in 1944/45 about the bombing, what?
JS: We were heroes ‘cause we were doing a great job, we were knocking them about something awful. This is what it said about Bomber Command, there’s a big article coming out soon. 1944 we were heroes, marvellous, good lads, 1945 we were villains, bombing these poor Germans. That’s true, mind you we were bombing them. God forbid we gave them quite a hounding. I remember going to Essen twice, I remember Hagen twice and each occasion it was a write off. Because when the war was over we took some of our ground crew and the WAAF’s on a visit to see what we’d done and I was absolutely flabbergasted at some of the damage we did out there. God, terrible.
AS: And most of the time you’d been the bomb aimer?
JS: Yeah.
AS: And somebody else was doing the navigating?
JS: Um.
AS: Yeah.
JS: I worked, I, navigation’s a funny thing. It got easier as the time went on because we had a lot of equipment to help us. It was much easier than when we first started.
AS: What did navigation involve when you first started, when you were navigating a trip?
JS: They used to call it, there’s a name for it. Well, it means pencil and paper and get down to it, you know?
AS: Dead reckoning?
JS: Yeah, dead reckoning. Didn’t always work out either, had a lot of trouble with it. When I look back on some of the guys that I flew with and lost, it was very difficult really. You never knew, well I knew I was going to come back, which is the most important thing, but a lot of them began to lose confidence. When you find that you had not one awful trip but two awful trips and then you lose the bloody way and everything goes wrong. So you realise what can happen, and does happen, but it never happened to me. I was very, very fortunate.
AS: And, generally, were the ones you saw losing confidence, were they the ones that didn’t come back?
JS: Oh yes, yeah. Yes, it was a shame because, don’t know how to explain it. I used to like to dance and I used to go to dances as lot and one or two of the lads I was with came. Most of the crew didn’t go for the dancing they went for the booze and the girls and they never turned up until the last knockings to find a bird to take home with them. But some of them I met, and we lost them. It seemed sad to think we wouldn’t see them again but it was just the way it was. My crew were funny really in that respect. When I look back on old Henley, he was a terrible man, a terrible man, I didn’t treat him as an officer above me in any way whatsoever, ‘cause I hadn’t got that much confidence in him and I hadn’t got that much respect for him either. If I had I would have shown it but I couldn’t show him ‘cause I didn’t think he was that sort of a guy.
AS: In, did you used to go to the cinema and watch the news reels?
JS: Um.
AS: What did they say about Bomber Command?
JS: Well they maintained the fact that we were doing a very good job and that it was necessary. I don’t think it was towards the end of the war as necessary as they made it ‘cause we did some terrible things you know? We really did towards the end of the war. We really did tear the place apart.
AS: And did?
JS: I went to Hamburg one night and we made a terrible mess of it. Bugger me, two nights later, they sent us back again to finish it off. And we did, burnt it down. It was a, you get to a stage where you don’t care, it was as easy as that.
AS: It’s just a job?
JS: Um.
AS: But the excitement of flying that you talked about before, did that stay with you?
JS: Oh yeah, yeah. [chuckling]. I’ve had some good times in the air. When we first, when I first went onto Dakotas I loved it. Oh God we had some fun.
AS: So how did that, you were in 77 Squadron?
JS: Um.
AS: You finished your tour did you, you did thirty trips?
JS: Um.
AS: And this would be after the war, or just?
JS: No, it’s in there.
AS: Just as the war was finishing. So –
JS: Chevrolets. We were going to the Far East you see? So, we all trained, were trained to fly these twin-engine things, Chevers.
AS: OK. So, this is in May, end of May 1945?
JS: Yes.
AS: So –
JS: The war was over here.
AS: Yeah, so ops to Nuremberg in April, ops to Heligoland. Your last op was Heligoland in April?
JS: It was an island in the middle and it was the last. And I’ll tell you a strange thing, you mention that, only a few of us were there, about twenty, and I watched this happen. I watched a ‘plane above drop his bombs on the ‘plane below and blow two others out of the sky with him. Five aircraft - ‘Bang’. Honest truth. And I looked there with my skipper and I said ‘Has anybody got out?’ and he said ‘I can’t see a sign’.
AS: No ‘chutes?
JS: I don’t think anybody survived. This is bloody night, the last day of the war you know, isn’t that awful?
AS: And that’s what you see in daylight. The same thing must have happened at night time?
JS: Um.
AS: And 5 Group used to fly higher than you?
JS: Oh, they did yes. I, I’ve, we’d been extremely lucky with the aircraft that we had ‘cause some of them were beginning to get very worn out. In fact, I told you the one I was flying had done it’s hundredth op. This was its hundredth op when these Germans came. We’d been warned for weeks, ‘Watch out’. What was the word they called?
AS: Intruders?
JS: Intruders, yeah, yeah, intruders. What happened was, as soon as we crossed the coast this side the gunners undid their guns. The, everybody sat down, even the skipper. Set the target on automatic and went to sleep. Out of the blue, these bloody aircraft were with us and we never saw them. And they shot down twenty over where I was. One of my mates he was, he was in a terrible state. They tried to land but nobody would take them on, ‘cause as soon as they went into land the Germans would come and they would shoot the place up. But they did bail out and he landed in a tree in a churchyard and it was a big tree right up high, and his ‘chute got caught in the top so he was hanging there swinging. And he gets his fags out and he puts his fag in his mouth, and he gets his lighter out and drops it. [laughter], and he sat there, hour after hour, waiting for someone to come in the early hours of the morning. Nobody turned up until about ten o’clock to see him stuck up a tree. He was alive at least anyway. He got away with it.
AS: Yeah. As your tour progressed and we, you got H2S and G, was there a feeling that it was becoming more professional with a bigger bomber stream and more aeroplanes?
JS: I think so. I think it was the numbers that were telling, it was big. They couldn’t hit us back, we were too big. In fact, they couldn’t touch us with all their guns used together. The only thing they used to have were these intruders. They used to have jets and they used to come up from nowhere when the jets first started, but they were going so fast they used to fly past us and couldn’t hit us. By the time they turned round, we’d gone. But I’ve seen some very bad incidents, very bad incidents. When I look back on it now we used to joke and we used to laugh about things but it was a very serious business you know? When I think of all the chaps I’ve known that used to be mates of mine that have gone. We used to come home on leave and my brother Tony was there at the time of course, and he used to say ‘Why the hell you went into Bomber Command I’ll never know’. I said ‘Well, you must remember Tony, you didn’t intend to go the way you went. Life has its own way of going and there’s nothing you can do to stop it’. He ended up, as I say, deaf in one ear with a pension. Amazing isn’t it? Last week he died, ninety years old, ‘cause he put his age up about three years. He um, I could never understand why my Dad gave me such a bollocking for what I did.
AS: Tell us about that. This was when you went home in? He knew you were in Bomber Command?
JS: Um.
AS: And you were welcomed when you went home on leave?
JS: I finished my tour and I went home to finish. I told him I’d finished and Mum I wouldn’t be bombing anymore and Dad said ‘You shouldn’t have done it in the first place. What the devil you’re up to in there’. I said ‘This is what war is all about’. I said ‘You seem to forget Dad, that they bombed us first you know’. ‘I don’t recall that’. I said ‘I know you don’t ‘cause you weren’t here, you were in London, you were in the north of England’. I said ‘But they dropped bombs on us, it was just, we didn’t drop the bombs first, they did’. He said ‘Joe, all I can say to you is if you close your eyes and think back on all the people you must have killed you must have a terrible conscience’. I said ‘Well to be honest Dad, I’ve never given it a thought, but now you’ve put it into my mind I probably won’t forget’. Which I didn’t, and [inaudible] But what can you do about it?
AS: But he’d known you were in Bomber Command when you went home on leave?
JS: Yeah, I didn’t talk about it at all.
AS: OK.
JS: I never talked about flying when I was home. Never said a word. Never said I was flying ops or anything. Never said what I was doing. I just said that, they asked why do I get leave so regular. I said ‘Because that’s the way it goes’, you know. When I look back on it now it was regular then. But then you might as well take it ‘cause you didn’t know when the next one was going to be.
AS: And as crews disappear you go up the leave ladder?
JS: When I look back you know, God I lost some guys. I was thinking about you, I’m glad you came today, and I’m sorry that I carry on so, because I don’t ever talk about the Air Force, I certainly couldn’t do it at home. And my Dad, or even now at home with people. My girls don’t seem to realise and they don’t take any notice. I’m not bragging to be some sort of hero but I don’t really get involved in talks about it. Have a bit of a laugh sometimes with some of the funny things that happened, some of the songs we used to sing and some of the things we used to do.
AS: Can you still remember any of those songs?
JS: All of ‘em, yeah.
AS: OK.
JS: 77 has their own one.
AS: Yeah.
JS Then 578 was, started off – ‘We’re the pilot, otherwise Joe, we take him wherever we go. Berlin or [inaudible] wherever they send ‘em, it’s all the same to him. We’re the gunners, Dawson and Rear,[inaudible] with the flight engineer. It appalled us when they called us, we’d rather go on the beer. Navigations what I do, at least that’s what I tell the crew.’ [laughter] And things like this you know? The other one was, ‘77, 77 though we say it with a sigh. We’d rather work for Mr Bevan then we’d never have to fly’. And we had all these songs, and it was cheerful, it took your mind off what you were doing. We drank a lot and they knew we drank a lot and nobody corrected us. Because they used to say ‘The poor buggers they can’t guarantee they’re going to get any more drink’, you know? Whether they’d come back. We did lose so many guys.
AS: Yeah.
JE: We did lose so many guys.
AS: Yeah.
JE: And it wasn’t until after the war on my own I sat down and thought about it. And I’m not going to argue with my Dad, I’m not going to talk about it, I’m not even going to mention it to anybody. So, I didn’t say I was in the Air Force. I thought if I don’t say it I won’t have to talk about it or worry about it. Because some people thought I was a hero but some people thought we were villains.
AS: And this was quite quickly after the end of the war that things changed?
JE: Um. When I look back on it now, what a time to live eh?
AS: Well, it’s an experience. I mean did you ever think you’re getting airborne with two thousand gallons of fuel and twelve thousand pounds of bombs it was a bit dangerous?
JS: No, I didn’t, yeah.
AS: Did you?
JS: I tell you on one occasion, odd occasion this, we had a two-thousand-pound bomb hung up in the bombing rack, and the bloody thing wouldn’t go. Well, I was the smallest member of the crew, so I went, they hung me by my legs into the bomb bay with a hammer. And I had to ‘bang, bang, bang’ at the group until the bloody thing went. And it went, and after it went, didn’t it go with a bang? Christ Almighty! And the other time, of course, was definitely was my fault. Where we dropped the bombs on Scarborough. We should never have done them really, but we wanted, we were getting so close to the sea and yet we didn’t seem to be getting there. I thought if we don’t get there in a minute we’re going in. So, I pressed the wrong tit at the wrong time.
AS: I think dropping them live was what probably upset them, Joe.
JS: Oh my God, the rear gunner said, ‘Christ Almighty, what’s going on Joe?’ He said. There was a terrible bang and then another one and of course they were all going off. Actually, I, we were lucky we didn’t blow ourselves out of the sky really.
AS: Yeah.
JS: Crazy thing to do.
AS: There’s a minimum height for.
JS: Um.
AS: You also dropped lots of bombs safe didn’t you after the war? Tell me about that.
JS: We used to load the aircraft with bombs. Fly outside of Hull and drop them in the sea. Just unload the whole bloody lot downward, go back and get another load. There were so many bombs in the bomb dump and we said ‘They won’t be used again. We want them out of the way’. So, on the floor outside of Hull are literally hundreds of bombs that were dropped there during the war. The next job after that was the aircraft. We had to fly them up to Newcastle. We took anything that was necessary off, flew them up there and they burnt them and broke them up. This was after the war.
AS: Soon after the war?
JS: Yes, not many weeks after the war, ‘cause by that time I’d then gone onto Dakotas you see? And Ken and I had to learn to fly Dakotas, I enjoyed that, they were good fun.
AS: Did you surprise Ken with how well you could fly? Did he know about your previous experience?
JS: Oh yeah, he knew initially that I could fly, because rare occasions, very rare occasions, he’d let me fly the Halifax. Only when he wanted to have a slash or have a break, then I would take over you see?
AS: On ops?
JS: Um.
AS: Gosh.
JS: When I look back on it now I was glad I wasn’t a pilot. I wouldn’t have wanted to be a pilot anymore. Different if you were a Spitfire pilot or a Hurricane pilot, which is what I originally went in to do. That’s alright but not sitting at the [inaudible] of the bloody thing.
AS: Bus driving.
JS: Bus driving yeah.
AS: Well they call them don’t they? Driver air frame mark one?[chuckling].
JS: Yeah.
AS: So, you stayed on 77, and the idea was they’d re-role 77 to be a transport squadron?
JS: Um.
AS: And you became a second pilot sharing the flying with Ken?
JS: With Ken.
AS: So, you didn’t stay in the UK, what happened?
JS: Went straight out to the Far East.
AS: Did you take any sort of test as a pilot? Qualification as a pilot?
JS: We both had a test before we left. I spent a bit of time, we both were capable of flying and it was known, but he was the pilot obviously and I was the second pilot. But the aircraft, some of them were quite good, some of them were rubbish. They had them too long and they should have been scrapped but we used them occasionally. Um.
AS: In training or?
JS: Um.
AS: And then you went with Dakotas overseas?
JS: Um.
AS: What was that all about, ‘cause the war in the Far East was still going on was it?
JS: Yes, we went out for the invasion of Japan. We were going to act as the taxis for the people who were going to invade Japan, but they dropped the bombs on Japan completely, well it was fantastic bombs they dropped on Japan. And the war finished immediately. So after that we did every job that could be, was necessary for an aircraft to do. We brought the prisoners of war back home, we did all sorts of interesting things.
AS: You set off the 27th of September to Sardinia? That’s one leg, Libya, Karachi this took you?
JS: Took about ten days.
AS: Amazing. Delhi via the Taj Mahal.
JS: Um.
AS: Carried VIP’s. What was that all about?
JS: We took some. You see we had all sorts of jobs. Oftentimes somebody’s generals and admirals that had to go and we took them. We had a special aircraft which had seats, ‘cause a lot of the aircraft hadn’t got seats, had to sit on the floor. But we had lots of aircraft fitted for important people, and we took them to various places. I did a tour once, oh that was it, I did a tour once with them, with a concert party, and we had the concert party with all the extras in the Dak. And we used to fly every night we’d fly to a different place, and then they’d do their trip. Well then they finished, towards the end they said to us ‘What do you think of the show, Joe?’ I said, and I felt embarrassed, I said ‘Actually’, ‘Oh, go on’. ‘We’ve never seen the show’. ‘Good God man’ they said. I said ‘Well, there’s always’. ‘We’ll give you a performance tonight’. So some of them did. There were two brothers, they dressed up as young females. They were so good.
AS: You’ve been out East too long. [laughter]
JS: And I finished up with the tour at Bombay and we realised that we had a couple of days over, so I said to Ken ‘Can’t we get hold of some money and stop here for a couple of days?’ So he said he would see what he could do, and he got some cash out of somewhere. And we stopped on for a couple of days extra. And I liked Bombay, I learned to swim underwater in Bombay, ‘cause they had a beautiful pool there.
AS: And that’s where in November 1945, at Palam, you set off on your last flight with 77 Squadron?
JS: That’s right yeah.
AS: Tell me about finishing flying, was that planned or?
JS: No. I didn’t think he was going home that quickly, ‘cause he wanted to get home anyway. And his number came up long before mine, and I could have carried on with somebody else, but I suddenly thought ‘I’ve been flying for four years, I’m the luckiest bloke I know, perhaps I can even get an early journey home’. Well I went to see the CO and he said he realised that I had had a good innings but he couldn’t let me go yet, it wasn’t down. He said ‘There’s a nice little job coming up in the post office’. I said ‘oh’. He said ‘I think you’d like it you know, you’re in charge’. So I said ‘OK’ so I took it on until such time as it was due to come home. When I look back on it now, India was going through terrible internal problems. I was bloody glad to get out of India. They were killing each other wholesale. One against the other. Just before the break up, because that’s, if you look at the time, dates, that’s when they finally broke up, India and Pakistan.
AS: I think also there was some trouble in the Air Force wasn’t there? What they called the 1946 RAF Mutiny?
JS: Oh yeah.
AS: What was that about?
JS: That arrived it was the first time I went out there. It wasn’t ’46, it was ’45 I think, could have been ’46. What had happened was, all the guys, the ground staff guys, had been out in the Far East, some of them for four years, never been home. And here was the war over in England and all their mates were leaving and getting good jobs and there’s them stuck out there in India. And it got worse and worse until eventually there was a desertion and then a –
AS: A mutiny?
JS: Yeah, it really went mad. I thought there might even be a bit of violence but there wasn’t. But some of the chaps who were actually in charge, and they were officers, they were in trouble, they were jailed. But, and I can see their point, lots of them had been out there for four years. All their mates had gone home in England and finished the war and were getting jobs, nothing for them.
AS: So, what happened to Joe Stemp then? You’re running a post office?
JS: Yeah.
AS: You told me earlier you taught yourself to drive on a big truck.
JS: Yeah.
AS: How did you end up from India?
JS: My time came up to leave.
AS: OK.
JS: And I went up, I flew home. [inaudible] what I’m going to do and my father said to me ‘I’ve saved you a position in the works’. He said ‘You can start next Monday’. I said ‘Hang on, I’ve been away. I wasn’t going to start work straight away, I thought I’d have a break’. ‘Why?’ I said, ‘Because I’ve been away and I want a break’. ‘I don’t know about that’ he says, ‘I’ve kept a job for you here’. So I said ‘OK’. So I started and I hated it. And after a few weeks a mate of mine got in touch with me and we went and had a drink together. And he worked on the paper that the, Times no?
AS: Financial Times?
JS: Financial Times.
AS: The pink one.
JS: And he said ‘How would you like a job on the Financial Times?’ ‘Oh, not half’. I said. ‘I’ll see what I can do’. And the next thing I know is I’m offered a job by them. I went up, saw them, they liked me, I liked them and I went to work for them, and it was up and up from then onwards. I went out on the road eventually, had a good job as a rep and eventually went out on the road and did very well. Maxwell.
AS: Yeah.
JS: My first client, I’ve told you haven’t I? Three months I gave him his work. Did lots of [inaudible] for him, never got a penny. When I went to get money from him he was rude to me and told me to get stuffed and all sort of things. So I said ‘That’s it, we’re finished with you’. And we did but I carried on and I had some very good clients in the end and they liked me and also the women liked me, so I had lots of women clients. And they all liked Joe and I was getting more money. Before I knew where I was I was doing very well and over the years I’ve done very well.
AS: How did you meet and marry Pat?
JS: On a train. I was flying, it was just before I went to the Far East when I was still flying Dakotas, and I went, I took a couple of days off. And a mate said to me ‘Let’s go down the coast for a couple of days and have a break’. So I said ‘What a good idea’. And my Dad didn’t want me to because he knew that I’d go boozing. I said ‘So?’ Anyway, I went. We get to the station, we get to the train, there isn’t room to spare. We walked right the length of the train [inaudible] and in the last carriage, eight women were in there, but nobody moved. So, we stood outside all the way to Plymouth and at Plymouth two got out, and we went in and used their seats. And I took one look at this woman opposite me and I fell in love with her, now I did. I know I’m a romantic but there and then. So, the next day I looked and saw she had a wedding ring and an engagement ring. I thought ‘Bloody marvellous, every time I fancy some girl someone else has got there first’. So the next day we were talking casually and she said she was a widow. Oh, lost her husband shot down over Poland flying the aircraft [inaudible]. So on the third day I asked her to marry me. She thought I was crazy. ‘Good God man’. She said. ‘I don’t even know your name, never mind marry you’. I said ‘Would you marry me?’ She thought about and she said ‘Put it this way, I’ll think about it’. I said ’Look, I’m going away any moment now, like tomorrow or the day after, to the Far East. I don’t know how long I’m going to be going but I’ll be gone probably about a year. And I’d like to know’. She said ‘I’m not going to say anything. I’ll think about it’. So she wrote to me during the first year and when I came home I asked her again, and we got married. So, I did well didn’t I? [laughs]
AS: Absolutely.
JS: She said something to me about two years ago. She’d wet herself in the home down the road there, and I went to change her knickers for her and I changed her knickers in the toilet and I whispered in her ear ‘What a good job I love you to death’. Do you know what she said to me? ‘Joe, I’ve loved you from the moment I first saw you’. Christ I was nearly in tears.
AS: On the train?
JS: Um. So I said ‘You’re a funny girl’. I knew see, and of course we got on very well over the years but she used to write me nice letters. Even when the Queen sends us a card. There’s a certain period of the year when the Queen sends us a card. Because we’ve got some connection with them. And she usually writes in the Queen’s letter or card a nice letter to me. Always a nice letter saying how much she loves being married to me and what a marvellous life she’s had. And that was how it went.
AS: And did you ever talk about the war and the flying between you?
JS: No.
AS: Because she’d lost her husband?
JS: We never did. Only time she said something was when I did say at one time, ‘I should have stayed in you know Pat?’ ‘What do you mean you should have stayed in?’ I said ‘All my mates who stayed in did a great job, doing, working for Europe, buying stuff in Europe and coming over after the war you know? They were making a fortune on the side.
AS: It’s called smuggling Joe. [laughter]
JS: It is just that. So I said, she said ‘Joe, I’ve told you I lost one husband and I’m not going to take another one, it’s up to you’. I said [inaudible] So we were married. Sixty-five years we were married.
AS: Good lord.
JS: Never had a cross word with her hardly in all that time. My girls could never understand it. ‘You and Mum’ they said ‘You get on so well’. I said ‘Well, that’s what life’s supposed to be like, getting on well.’ Well now you know a lot about that book.
AS: I’d like to photograph the book in a minute Joe. Just one final set of thoughts really, perhaps? That we talked about your father’s attitude to the bombing.
JS: Oh yeah.
AS: The public’s attitude through the fifties and sixties and the seventies, I think was, in many ways, was much against the bombing although you didn’t talk about it.
JS: No.
AS: Did you feel it was unfair? Did you shout internally about it or?
JS: They felt that we were taking advantage of the fact that the Germans were in trouble with Russia and when they were in their worst state we were taking advantage and bombing them badly. Which we did. I never discussed that, it never gave me a thought. When you fly you’re told what you told, you go where you’re told to go, and do what you’ve got to do. And that’s all I can say. I couldn’t say to them ‘Oh I’m not going to bomb there, I’m not going to go there’. You do what you’re told. I didn’t even want to belong to Bomber Command but once you’re are, you’re there aren’t you?
AS: And you had no choice about where you went?
JS: No.
AS: When you were flying, this has just occurred to me, did you have a lot of, I mean the enemies were the flak, the fighters and the weather. Did you have a lot of trouble with the weather?
JS: No. If the weather was bad we didn’t go. [inaudible] Our raid were also worked on how the weather was going to be on the way and on the way back,. ‘cause we had to get back from Germany, it wasn’t like round the corner it was a six hour trip sometimes. And basically we did well. Occasionally we did come unstuck. In which case we had to find somewhere to land as soon as we hit this coast. Which we did, we went to a smaller ‘drome in south of England.
AS: OK.
JS: Went in there on two or three occasions. I’ve been down there and found the place full of Halifax’s, and bombers and all sorts that had run out of fuel.
AS: So, is it fair to say that the weather reports you were given, or forecasts were pretty good most of the time?
JS: They were very good.
AS: OK.
JS: I think I mentioned this. Just before I joined the squadron, I met some mates of mine who were in a similar squadron but they were flying Whitley’s and Wellingtons, and they hated the flying so what they did was, and this is an absolute truth, there used to be a song. ‘Bomb holes in the roof tops, instead of craters in the sea’. What had happened was, they’d be having a drink and the skipper would come in. ‘Don’t have any more drink lads, we’re on tonight’. ‘Oh, sod it, have we got to go?’ ‘Yes’. ‘Oh, alright.’ They’d take off, get half way across the coast then they’d say to each other ‘Let’s have a go’. So they’d all have a go at the skipper. ‘Have we got to go? This is bloody silly, really isn’t it? Why can’t we dump our bombs here and go back home? The navigator can cook the log’. Which he could, so they did. And it went on and on. At that period there were more bombs dropped in the bloody sea than ever dropped over there. And then they found out what they were doing, ‘cause the next morning they’d go down and they’d say ‘That’s funny, they reckon they dropped all the bombs, where did they drop them? We can’t find any bomb holes anywhere’. Spitfire would go over. They decided they must do something about it so they fitted a new attachment like that, to a camera, to the bomb tit. So when you pressed the bomb tit it showed you where the bombs were going. So you couldn’t get away with it anymore. [laughs]
AS: So, this was automatic, so many seconds after the bombs went?
JS: Um. But there was an awful lot of it. And when you think of the aircraft, they were pathetic aircraft, you know? You didn’t stand a chance really with them. At least with our aircraft we had good aircraft. I mean the Lancaster and Halifax were both fantastic bombers. And well looked after, well good.
AS: Can you remember still, and I don’t expect this, but can you remember the drills you had to do as the bomb aimer as you’re approaching the target?
JS: Any?
AS: The drills. Did you have to set the wind up or? Too long ago?
JS: No, as I recall, I did most of it, I didn’t do them all. But we had to get, as I recall. We used to lay on our stomach and we got our bomb sight lined up with where we had to drop the bombs. And generally speaking I was either very lucky, not always so clever, but very lucky. Consequently, I had some very, very good results and we got a big reputation. I told you, on the bombs on that railway, I blew the station from one end to the other. Right down the line, blew everything out of the way. And so I got congratulated on it. And on a number of occasions I was, I personally was congratulated, which was such a shame when I hit the Scarborough bit. [laughter]
AS: OK. I think we’ve had a really good go at this Joe, I’m –
JS: Haven’t we, I’m sorry.
AS: No, I’m so grateful for you. And perhaps we could resume another day?
JS: Yes.
AS: When maybe some more memories will come back.
JS: Next time I’ll take you out to have something to eat. It’s been nice, I’m not giving you bullshit now. It’s been nice to meet you, you’re exactly as I thought you would be and I’ve enjoyed your company. And if you ever want to come again, not necessarily to chat even, you’re always welcome here with me.
AS: That’s very kind and I will.
JS: Sorry.
AS: This is the second reel of interview with Joe Stemp. Joe, I think we paused at the point when we were talking about your disappointment at –
JS: At losing. Yes. Scrubbing my pilot’s skills.
AS: Did they. What happened next? Did they give you the choice of being a navigator or?
JS: Not really, I don’t know. All I know is that for some months I did odds and ends around and the next thing I know is I’m at Blackpool, going out to South Africa to do this navigation course.
AS: What sort of odds and ends did they have you doing?
JS: Oh, I did all sorts of things for them, I was most surprised they let me do it really. I quite enjoyed it, it was quite enjoyable. I was up at Blackpool for some time and, you know, I quite enjoyed the Air Force. I had intended to go for a pilot’s course, another one, and try again but I realised that they’d got all the records and I would never have got away with it.
AS: So, you’d come out then and enlist under a different name or something?
JS: Yeah.
AS: OK. So, after they’d had you doing odds and ends, you’re in Liverpool, presumably going to South Africa by ship?
JS: Yes, we did.
AS: What was that like?
JS: Marvellous. I found a lot of good friends out there. East London was where I trained and the people of East London were very good to us. Families would adopt us so at the weekend we always had somewhere to go. And I was adopted by a family and they liked me and we had good times together, the Carter family. I had a very good time in South Africa, I thoroughly enjoyed it. The only thing that ever got me was she had a lot of other children, they weren’t hers. She had seven people working for her. She had people working for her, a family of seven and they lived in a rough old shack down the bottom of her garden. Well if I treated her children to sweets I treated their children. And she found out and I got a real bollocking. I mustn’t, she said ‘You don’t seem to realise, Joe, there’s more of them then us’. I said ‘It’s got nothing to do with it’. But, and I’ve always had this thing about it, the way they treated them.
AS: Was there any, did you encounter any anti-British feeling in South Africa?
JS: No, not really no. Not really. ‘Cause funny enough the Air Force weren’t very popular in South Africa, they weren’t very popular at all. I don’t know why, amongst the South African’s this is, I wasn’t unhappy to leave on that score. The course was very good, very interesting and we flew nearly every day. The weather was so good you could, you see We flew nearly every day.
AS: So, you were there doing a specific navigators course or an observers course?
JS: An observers course really. I was doing navigators and bomb aiming too. I did bombing as well. In fact, it was a brilliant – by the time I joined my crew on the Halifax I was the most experienced member of the crew really, although I was the youngest. It’s amazing isn’t it?
AS: So, you’d had training on navigation and bomb aiming? What else did you manage to pick up?
JS: Pilot training as well, you see, when I started, you see.
AS: Of course.
JS: I always remember when the war was over, I came home, and my skipper arranged to meet me in Ealing and we’d have a drink together. And we got terribly drunk and then got into trouble because we really let go. And I swore, I said ‘I’m not going to argue with you anymore. We’ll leave it to another time and finish this conversation’. And I walked out and left him. And I never did see him again, and I never did see him again because a couple of years later, out of the blue I found out he died early, so I never did get to see him.
AS: Can you discuss what the argument was about?
JS: Well first of all, I said the crew came to me at one period during our tour and said ‘You’re the best person to talk to him. Can you tell him that we are not here for the ride? We are part of this crew and we all have our jobs to do. Every time we say anything he completely ignores us’. So I said ‘In what –‘ So one of the gunners said ‘I told him, dive starboard’. I said. ‘How we got missed, I never know’. And all this sort of thing, he said ‘He never, ever listens to what we’re saying’. So I said ‘OK, I’ll have a word with him’. Because only the pilot and the navigator went into the main briefing. When the main briefing was over then the whole crew came in, and they all came in and after the briefing he went outside and he said ‘I believe you’re all upset with me?’ ‘Oh no’. And I stood there and I thought here I am, eighteen years old, I’ve learnt a lesson for life. Don’t talk up for other people, let them do it themselves. And I never. [laughs] And they all virtually. [inaudible] He said ‘Ha’. And I said ‘I don’t give a [inaudible], you either don’t want to know or you do, and I don’t care now’. We carried on, and in fairness he was a good pilot. And we had incidents as one does when one’s flying but basically I was very happy and we did a good job. I don’t think, I never wanted to go into bombers anyway. But as I say he was a funny guy. We went from there, as I told you, onto Dakotas, and the two of us were flying, learning to fly Dakotas at the same time. And then we flew out to the Far East with the object of the invasion of Japan, but they dropped the bomb and fortunately for us we didn’t have to invade Japan. So we ended up by doing anything out there that they needed. For example, we picked up most of the prisoners of war, our prisoners of war, and brought them back to India. Anywhere to get, you know? And we did all sorts of jobs with the Dakota. I always remember getting a whole group of these ex-prisoners. They were like, oh God it was awful, six stone some of them aAnd they didn’t want to get on the aircraft. They said ‘No, we’re going to get killed’. I said ‘We’ll be flying the bloody thing’. Anyway they got on, no seats, we just sat them on the floor. ‘Anyway, it’s only a couple of hours or so and then you’ll be out of here and on your way home’. But we did some very good jobs out there, I enjoyed it, but when he finally went home I didn’t want to fly with anybody else so they put me in charge of the post office in Karachi of all things.
AS: But it sounds like a fascinating marriage almost.
JS: Um.
AS: One hears of crewing up and how the crew is terribly tight knit.
JS: Um.
AS: Doesn’t seem really –
JS: It’s not true.
AS: To have been the case for you.
JS It’s not true. I know so many crews that were good and they were crews. They mixed together, they went out together, they worked together, they were part of a team. But my crew lasted, there were three of us, were good friends. The flight engineer and one of the gunners and I. The three of us were great friends. The flight engineer was a regular airman and he was coming, and he didn’t ever want to be in aircrew, and he was coming out with a load of stuff on his bike one day and just for a joke the guy on the desk said ‘What have you got there?’ And he’d got half a joint. He said ‘Where are you going with that?’ He was taking it to the Officers’ Mess. He’d nicked it from somewhere. It got into a big battle between him and the CO and they virtually said ‘We’ll give you an option. You can join aircrew and we’ll drop the charges or else’. And he didn’t want, he was scared. I’d been with him when poor old Tom. And I’d seen him gripping hold of the thing and I said ‘Don’t worry, we’ll be alright’. But he never did like flying. He was a good, he was a good flight engineer, but he hated flying, he was petrified.
AS: But still did his job?
JS: He did his job. When we finished the tour for some unknown reason, we all disappeared. Even he did you know? But he turned up again to say to me that he was going on Dakotas and he wanted me to come with him. So I did. As a pilot he was good, he knew what he was doing. As a man I wasn’t happy with him at all.
AS: Was he an officer? Was he an officer?
JS: He was a flight lieutenant.
AS: Do you think this was part of the issue with the crew?
JE: No, no. He was, he always fancied his chances. I had a feeling that he thought he was a bit cleverer and brighter than the others but actually, when it came down to it, he lived just round the corner from where I lived at home. Alright, I lived in a council estate and he didn’t, but he was nothing special and he had a very nice wife who he, I thought, treated abominably. Because there had been times when I was with him when we’d have awful rows. Because we’d be out, well I didn’t mind the other boys shagging around all over the place, but I did object to him doing it. And we’ve had so many rows over this over the years. When he, I, so for years went by and I was down in Guildford and I was sitting there and I got hold of the directory. And I looked there and there was his name in the directory. And I said ‘Good God, I’ll ring him up’. So I rang him up and a voice said, a very posh voice said ‘Hello, who’s that?’ I said, ‘It’s Joe Stemp’. ‘My God man, that’s’s going back a bit, my God’ she said ‘Fancy that’. And she kept going on and on but she didn’t mention him. I thought ‘She kicked him out, she must have done’. But she didn’t, he died a couple of years after, after I’d separated from him. With a heart attack.
AS: Lot of strain, lot of stress in operational life.
JS: It was yes, yeah.
AS: You raise an interesting issue actually about sex in wartime.
JS: Um.
AS: I think, yeah, my generation thought they invented sex. Every generation thinks they invented sex. [laughter] It’s not something one hears a great deal about.
JS: You know why don’t you? They didn’t like aircrew. The girls would not, did not, like going out with aircrew ‘cause they said you could never guarantee he was going to be there on Friday, which happens. They’d fall for one and then the chap just wouldn’t appear again. We lost so many men that women were very careful about who they went with, especially flying men. So I’m told. I never had a girlfriend, I didn’t really worry. I found a girlfriend at the right time when it was all over.
AS: But amongst your crew mates there was a lot of?
JS: Oh God, they used to take me with them. It was, I was embarrassed. And they used to, they started off first of all thinking I was queer because I didn’t want to know, then to stir things up they always got somebody for me. Some awful woman that they’d dump, and I’d get left with this. Oh God, yes they were always after me. The thing was I wasn’t very old either when you think about it was I? Only about eighteen.
AS: I won’t ask you who you were more terrified of, the flak or the ladies?
JS: [laughter] We had lots of incidents when I was flying but I’ll tell you a story. I didn’t do many daylight trips, mostly night trips, long night trips. I was on this day trip and the rear gunner said to me, called over, and we didn’t have a lot of chat when we were flying. And he called over the tannoy, ‘Joe, look ahead of you. See that Lanc, that Halifax on the right, that’s old Charlie Whatisname’. So I looked and I thought ‘Dunno’. I thought ‘Perhaps he’s right, yeah’. I said, ‘I think it’, and before I could say another word he disappeared into little bits. A Lancaster above dropped his bloody bombs on the. Honestly, and it blew him out of the sky. And I turned round to the crew and I said ‘I’d never really got worried about flying, but this has done me in, I can’t believe what I’ve just seen.. Terrible.
AS: And not unique?
JS: No,it wasn’t, it happened a lot. Crashing into each other, bombs on each other. I mean, in some of these big raids where we had hundreds of bombers there was terrible mess ups all the way through you know?
AS: What sort of things?
JS: I’m a strange guy. People used to say ‘You’re an amazing guy. You don’t seem to realise it’s a dangerous job you’re doing’. I said ‘Well it’s quite exciting really’. And that’s the way I saw it you see? It wasn’t until I watched him go and I suddenly thought ‘Christ, it’s dangerous up here’. But I was never nervous and I was never scared, honestly, because we had a job to do. I was quite happy. But he was, we’ve had, I had lots of problems with him, the skipper. When we flew together out in India different story entirely. I did a lot of flying with him.
AS: As a second pilot were you responsible for the navigational duties as well or did you carry a navigator?
JS: We had a navigator.
AS: So, you were sharing take offs, landings and the flying?
JS: In fact, the guy who was our navigator at that time with the Dakotas, I have to tell you this story. We were flying out to the Far East, we’d done two legs when suddenly the aircraft got into trouble. So we put it in at Tel Aviv in Israel and they said they’d examine the aircraft. While we were there two days we met a couple of girls. Just chatted normally, we took them out and had drinks and enjoyed their company and that was it. Thoroughly enjoyed it, ‘Bye, bye, see you some time’. Years later, I went to see this navigator, and I had a feeling that it wasn’t right ‘cause when I rang him his wife used to give him the information what to say, and I had a feeling he didn’t know. I think he had Alzheimer’s, I think he didn’t know what he was saying. So anyway, I went down to see him and we had quite an interesting visit. And I did a silly thing, I said to him ‘Do you remember the crash in the Wellington?’ And he looked at me all surprised, and his wife was standing behind him going. So, I thought ‘OK, stop it, that’s it’. He obviously had forgotten, one doesn’t forget crashes. So, I said ‘That’s it’. So when I left I get into my car, he had a posh house in Torbay, he came rushing down the thing and banged on the window. ‘Here, Joe’ he said, ‘Do you remember those two girls we met in Tel Aviv?’ and I said, ‘For Christ’s sake’. We had a terrible crash and I don’t know how we ever got away with it and he says, he’d forgotten that and he was talking about two girls that we met just casually. Isn’t that amazing?
AS: The memory is a funny thing. What was the crash as a matter of interest?
JS: I tell you what it was. And it was, my skipper wasn’t at the helm. We’d done a navigation course at which I was working and we ended up somewhere outside, that island, between England and Ireland.
AS: Isle of Man?
JS: Isle of Man. We parked in there and we were taking off to go back home, and we’d only been in the air about ten minutes when the operator came up and said ‘I’ve got a message, Joe, to be passed through’. The message was ‘Return to the Isle of Man because the weather in the North, in Scotland, is so bad they won’t take us in’. So I gave this to my pilot who gave it to the other man who was flying, the flight lieutenant we don’t know him. ‘Sod that’ he said. ‘I told my wife we’re going home tonight and I’m going home tonight’. Well we had no answer to this, he was in charge, he was the skipper, so off we went. When we get there it is foul. Lossiemouth, Kinloss, none of them would take us in. So we went to a little place called Elgin and he decided he’d go in there. Instead of going into wind he went downwind, took the bloody barbed wire fence with him. I watched it pull all the skin off the aircraft as I sat there, and eventually it ended on, there’s a, they used to raise dumps and put the grass round, you know, and it was a bomb dump. And as soon as we managed eventually to stop, there was nobody rushing to our aid, they’d all buggered off, running away ‘cause they thought. [laughter] I’ll never forget it. So I caught them up and we finished there and he wasn’t a mid-upper gunner because we hadn’t got a mid-upper turret. But we were keeping him for when we went onto heavies. And he went up to this officer and he walloped him. And of course everybody grabbed him. And I thought, said to my gunner ‘Joe it’s [inaudible]’’. Anyway, they didn’t. I think he lost his commission. I think he was charged ‘cause he was definitely told he mustn’t return. How the hell we got away with it I’ll never know.
AS: So, this is when you were back in England?
JS: Yeah.
AS: Crewed up?
JS: I’d crewed up but we were crewed up on Wellingtons you see?
AS: OK, whereabouts was that?
JS: I can’t think now.
AS: Doesn’t matter. This was what OTU?
JS: Like an OTU yes. This is where I first met my pilot and the other crew got together. We were crewed up as a crew. We had a strange crew. Lots of crews I’ve met over the years have been ideal. But there were some strange crews.
AS: Strange in what sense? How did you, how did you meet and fall in love as it were? How did you crew up the?
JS: They put us all together in this big hangar with drinks to follow, and you had the chance, people would come up and say, if they fancied you ‘Are you crewed up?’ ‘No’. ‘You’re not looking for an engineer?’ ‘Yeah, yeah’. It was all, you know, we ended up with, they were quite a mixed crowd really. Some of the crews were great, they got on so well together. They were a real team. But we couldn’t say that with Henley, ‘cause Ken Henley was an arrogant bastard really. I –
AS: Who was, can you remember, who was in charge of the crewing up? Did he take the lead? Did you take the lead?
JS: No, I did meet, I met two chaps who were talking together and I said to them, I liked the look of them you know? And I said to them ‘Are you crewed up?’ ‘No, not yet’.[inaudible]. He and I had just met, his gunner and his engineer had just met, and I said, ‘You haven’t got a crew?’ ‘No’. I said ‘Oh, could I join you?’ They said ‘Yeah, sure. Who are you flying with?’ And I said ‘Well I’ve got a skipper but I don’t know whether you’d like him or not?’ But they said ‘Oh sod him, we’ll have you’. And that’s how we got together. There were funny things happen with crews during the war. Very funny things used to happen.
AS: What sort of things?
JS: Well, my skipper for example was, he was a terrible womaniser in every possible way. And also he, what he said the crew agreed. In other words the crew used to say ‘He thinks he’s the only one on board. I don’t know why we all go with him ‘cause he doesn’t bother, you’d think he was the only one. He forgets there should be seven of us’. He did, and he did do this and I used to say to him ‘You must be more careful, Ken, with their feelings’. ‘I mean’ I said ‘When the other night’. One of the operators did something and he virtually turned him down. ‘He was absolutely right and you know it was’, I said, ‘Through him and through you ignoring him, we were five minutes late’ I said ‘We ended up that we would have reached the target five minutes after the other buggers had left’. I said ‘It wouldn’t have been a lot of fun’. And it got worse and worse and the nearer we got to the target, they kept coming up to me and saying ‘Joe, for Christ’s sake, tell him’. So I did. I mentioned ‘This is stupid. There’s no point on going on like this, we’re going to get shot to pieces in a minute, ‘cause we’re going to be the only ones up here’. And he at last agrees so we dropped all the bombs and we came home on our own. But it would have been awful.
AS: Going back to your accident up in Elgin. Were you ever aware of an organisation called the Training Flying Control Centre on the Isle of Man? That -
JS: No.
AS: That sent all these signals?
JS: No.
AS: My mother worked for them.
JS: Really? Good Lord.
AS: Yep. ‘Cause you and lots and lots of aircrews were training over the Irish Sea and they used to fly into mountains and fly into the sea. So they started this Training Flight Control Centre and they would be the people probably who sent you the recall message.
JS: Yeah.
AS: So, you were crewing up and learning the art of operational flying on Wellingtons? What were they like as kites? Were they new or old and clapped out? What were they like?
JS: Wellingtons?
AS: Yeah.
JE: Loved it. Loved ‘em. Oh, I was very keen on the Wellington. I liked the Wimpey, we all did. In fact, I was sorry when we started first of all on the Halifax. My, I must tell you this chap, one of my crew, the engineer he hated flying, he was absolutely scared stiff. But he had to, I think I told you because of an incident. But there were so many things. He was a professional airman too. He’d been in the Air Force before the war, the last thing he wanted to do was fly. But he was threatened so he had to start flying. And I used to try to comfort him because he I found he used to get so, so upset. I can see him standing there, holding onto things. He hated it, he hated ops. But he didn’t like upsetting us so he came with us. It wasn’t an easy job you know at times. We went out in some awful weather and did some awful trips, long trips. We were coming back from that big one, where we should never have dropped the bombs, we did because of the Russians.
AS: Dresden?
JS: Yes. And I said to my crew, ‘Now look’ I said. ‘Don’t for Christ’s sake put this in your logbook, ‘cause the time will come when you’ll be most embarrassed to know, or anybody else know, that you actually bombed here, like we’ve done’. ‘Well’ they said ‘All we’ve done is drop’. We didn’t drop explosive bombs. So, I said, I said ‘The best thing to do is forget all about it’. Because, I mean, fifty yards from the target, I looked back and the Americans had come in and they decided to bomb, and there was a lot of bombing going on. It was awful.
AS: So even, even as, you were carrying incendiaries? Even as you were over the target what made you think not to put it in your logbook? Just the?
JS: The fact that we realised we shouldn’t have been there anyway. I didn’t feel we should have bombed there. They said, they said ‘It’s the Russians, we’re doing it to please Russia’. Perhaps we are, but nobody seemed happy about it. None of the crews that I flew with that day said to me anything. They all had a bit of an indiscretion, they all felt a bit bad about that one.
AS: This was after the briefing?
JS: Um.
AS: What did they say then, just that it was to help the Russians, at the briefing?
JS: Well they said it would help the trouble on that front, you know? The following day the Americans went in but they didn’t have incendiaries, they had high explosives, they blew the place apart.
AS: Before we got to your operational missions, you were, how long did it take on the Wellingtons, on the OTU? What sort –
JS: A long time.
AS: What sort of things were you doing?
JS: A lot of training on the Wellington. I loved that on the Wellingtons. Apart from the crash we had a great time. I thought it was a lovely aircraft, always did. This guy who was flying it he was, he’d had a flat near the ‘drome, and he promised his missus he was going home, regardless of us. Regardless of [inaudible] that the weather was bad or that they weren’t going to take us into Kinloss or Lossiemouth. And he still carried on. Well, he was in charge, we weren’t. So, you just do what you’re told don’t you?
AS: So he was a staff pilot from the OTU?
JS: Oh yeah, yeah. I think he lost his rank, I think he lost his job. I don’t remember afterwards anything happening. All I know is that we were. We didn’t realise why people were running away from us, not coming to our aid. Because we were on the bloody bomb dump that’s why.
AS: So, I imagine that it wasn’t quite the same then nowadays. Did you get leave and counselling or anything like that?
JS: Well, when we were flying on ops we had leave about every month. We had a week off and not only did we have a week off but Lord, was it Nuffield?
AS: Nuffield yeah.
JS: Used to give us extra money. Did you know that?
AS: Yes.
JS: For aircrew, most unusual. And I used to always have a white fiver to give to my Mum. And when I used to go home I used to give my Mum the white fiver, she used to rush up the stairs and hide it. And years later, couple of years, she gave it all back to me to put in the Crusader Rescue. I said ‘I’m not going to do it. It isn’t for the Crusader Rescue, it’s for you’. But no we had a, we did quite well, we had leave quite regularly.
AS: After your accident did they give you leave? Or just put you in another aeroplane?
JS: No. After our accident we were flying a different ‘plane the next day to make sure we were all alright, ‘cause they thought perhaps you know we’d not want to fly again.
AS: At this time when you’re flying over England, over Europe, I’m told it was very different from flying in South Africa. How did you find it, did you pick up the navigation in Europe very quickly?
JS: Yes. Lots of room. Lovely weather, lots of room. The pilots actually that were training with us were South African Air Force pilots. And one in particular he’d got a couple of girlfriends. And he used to bugger me up because I’d be on a navigation trip and he’d say ‘I won’t be long, Joe, I’m just going to pull off for a bit’. And off he’d go off to up where his girlfriend lived. Then we, then I wouldn’t bloody know where we were, and I’ve got to find out. No, it was a bit of a headache with him. He was a nice enough guy but he was mad.
AS: During your training, it was all. What sort of navigation did you learn?
JS: I don’t know, it’s hard to say now.
AS: Astro and?
JS: Yes, yeah we did the lot you know.
AS: Astro Course
JS: It was a very good course. Navigator. And of course in the end we had H2S and these things on the aircraft too.
AS: In South Africa?
JS: Oh no. When we came home.
AS: Yes.
JS: Um.
AS: So, you’d done your training. Did you come back by ship?
JS: Yes, I did.
AS: What was that like on the ship?
JS: Hated it. I was taken ill actually and I spent most of the way home in the sick bay. And I was put in a hospital when we first arrived home. I forget what was the matter with me but I know I wasn’t right. I always remember we came home on one of those famous liners we used before the war, you know?
AS: Queen Elizabeth or Queen Mary?
JS: Yeah, that sort of thing, yeah.
AS: Wow.
JS: Amazing.
AS: And can you, can you remember the trip? Were you in convoy or?
JS: Yes, that was the trouble. When we were going out we had huge convoys. It took ages, it took about three weeks to get to South Africa. And also, another time, I remember flying alongside in North Africa. There were tremendous problems out there. It was, you always made a convoy around you to keep you safe, you know? So many of these things I’ve forgot but it was quite an interesting time.
AS: Yeah. It’s a long time ago, forgetting is not surprising. But when we talk it’s surprising how much comes back I think. You came back, did you come back into Liverpool from South Africa?
JS: Yes.
AS: OK.
JS: And we stopped also, I always remember. We went to a very posh place and stopped there. All aircrew and we were crewed up, we crewed up there. I have met some really nice guys in aircrew during the war. I was unhappy about my bloke but the thing was you couldn’t afford to be. When you’re flying with someone you’ve got to get on and do what’s going. So we did the best we could. He was a good pilot, he was a bit nervous. On one occasion only did he panic. We had an explosion underneath us and he called out to me ‘Joe, Joe, they’ve shot my arse away’. So I said ‘What are you talking about?’ So I went up to him and he said ‘Look, blood, blood!’ And I said ‘For Christ’s sake’. So we got a torch out of the engine, they hadn’t shot his arse away, they had shot underneath, and in doing so they he had, it wasn’t blood it was oil! And he was panic stricken ‘cause he had a handful of oil and he thought it was blood. But he was alright generally but I wasn’t happy with him. I would never have anything to do with him in private life ever.
AS: But you were an extremely effective crew?
JS: Yes. We were a good crew. We were a good crew. The only thing that we did wrong was the end of my tour and I bombed Scarborough.
AS: I was born in Scarborough.
JS: Were you really?
AS: Yes. I take great exception to that Joe, tell me about it.
JS: We took off, aircraft was a deadbeat aircraft, full load of bombs. Got in the sky and he said to me ‘Christ, Joe, we’re in trouble’. And the next thing is, one of the engines packed up. I said ‘For God’s sake, Ken, let’s get out of here’. We had a load of bombs, let’s. I said ‘Make for Scarborough and we’ll get to the beach and we’ll drop the bombs in the sea there’. So he said ‘OK’. So we got to Scarborough and got lower and lower and lower, and then suddenly he said ‘Look we’ve got to get.’ So I pressed the tit. I pressed the tit that would send them down ‘live’ instead of ‘safe’, and they nearly blew us out of the sky. The poor old rear gunner was nearly. And there was a terrible incident there. ‘Joe Stemp bombs Scarborough’. Christ. So when we got back we explained what had happened and they, he didn’t exactly help me. So I had to go on a switch drill campaign, just to embarrass me really you know. I thought perhaps they’d stop us but we carried on just the same afterwards, but I always remember that. We didn’t do much damage, it wasn’t too bad. But they always joked about Joe Stemp the bloke that bombed Scarborough.
AS: So what were you, as a nav, doing with the bombs?
JS: I don’t know. I don’t know how it happened, it was panic stations that day.
AS: You just don’t like Yorkshiremen do you?
JS: [laughter] Lots of things I don’t remember. But we had, the crew weren’t too bad as a crew I suppose but I wasn’t terribly happy.
AS: Well, I’m, I’m interested actually about the ropey kite. Did you have your own aircraft as a crew mostly for the tour?
JS: Yes, well we had an aircraft. And it had done a hundred ops..
AS: What was her letter?
JS: I can’t think.
AS: Doesn’t matter.
JS: Anyway, the night of the hundred ops. The big arrangement there were lots of people turned up, we were going to have a big celebration, but something went wrong. Unbeknown to us, in the group coming back, was about thirty German fighters. And they didn’t make themselves known until they got over here. And when we got to Yorkshire they opened up and shot twenty of us down.
AS: Oh, this is Operation Gisela is it? Yes.
JS: Um.
AS: Were you attacked?
JS: Um. So my skipper said. I said ‘Well we better get down’. So he went to land and they tried to put him off landing, but he said ‘Sod it, we’re going in’. Well as we did and as we went there was an aircraft chasing us, shooting at us as we went down. We dived under the aircraft. Stupid our aircraft [inaudible] but of course the incidents, all the festivities forgotten. So the hundredth op just passed by. But it was a bad night, we lost a lot of aircraft. Lost a lot of aircraft that night and then the squadron broke up. And I had to join 77 ‘cos I think I’d done eighteen ops and I needed twelve more and so we joined 77 and finished the twelve with 77.
AS: As a complete crew?
JS: Yeah.
AS: Why did they break the squadron up, because of the losses?
JS: Yes, I think so. It was 578 the squadron was. It broke, they just closed it down.
AS: Good Lord. So, a very, very short existence?
JS: Um. I can’t imagine now why. I’ve often sat there when I’ve been on my own trying to think, ‘cause we had lots of fun on the station. Aircrew were always jolly chaps and we had singing and drinking and driving. And I had a motorbike and sidecar you see, I used to take them into York.
AS: The whole crew?
JS: Yeah. Well not him, not the skipper, but we’d get the rest on there. And the Police used to think, we used to think ‘They’re gonna nick us’. But I think the Police used to say ‘Poor buggers, might as well enjoy it, might not be here tomorrow’. So they let us get away with it. Oh, I drove yeah.
AS: Were there generally a lot of losses on 578? Not just that one night?
JS: No, there were a lot of losses. Um.
AS: Yeah. I know it’s a long time ago but can you remember how you felt at the time about that, about people?
JS: No, I can’t, honestly. I’ve thought about, ‘cause Emily is the journalist who was involved in their magazine and she went into it in a big way. But I can’t, I was too young and too excited to worry about what was happening. I was very excited about what we were doing. I never minded going on ops. I never worried. I said the only time I really got upset was when old Charlie Whatisname blew up out of the sky in front of me. And that really did upset me. I thought ‘For Christ’s sake. That’s in the middle of nowhere, here he is ‘Bang’. but no.
AS: Shall we pause and go and have a spot of lunch?
JS: Yes. I’d like that. I do go on a bit.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Joe Stemp
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Sutch
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-16
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStempJE151016, PStempJ1502
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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02:12:37 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Joe was a navigator with 578 Squadron and later with 77 Squadron, flying Halifaxes and later Dakotas. Joe has a sister and a brother. His brother ended his service with the Royal Air Force after an accident on a dinghy drill course left him deaf in one ear. Before joining up, Joe was working full time in a housing agency and he was just 17 when he signed up for the Royal Air Force, wanting to be a fighter pilot. Joe tells about his training in South Africa, and how he crewed up, as well as his uncomfortable relationship with his pilot. He also tells of how he did his planning – on the spot. Joe remembers seeing the lights in the sky at Ealing from the bombs falling during the battle of Britain. He also tells of his encounter with a man who gave away his sacred heart that his mother had given him, and how that man’s crew failed to return after. Joe talks about how he was always sure he was going to return after an operation. Joe also tells the story of seeing another Bomber Command aircraft blowing up in front of him and also of watching as Lancaster aircraft dropping its bombs onto other aircraft below. He also tells of the effect that lack of moral fibre had on the unit he was with. Joe was a bomb aimer with 77 Squadron, and was due to be presented with a Distinguished Flying Medal, however it was taken away from him after he dropped live bombs on Scarborough instead of safe ones into the sea. Joe talks about the heavy losses suffered by Bomber Command, his feelings on the bombings later on in the war including the bombing of Dresden. He was also involved in Operation Gisela, which led to 30 German fighters shooting down 20 Bomber Command Aircraft. Joe finished the war after completing 30 operations. He met Pat after meeting her on a train and they were married for 65 years. He asked her to marry him before he headed off to the Far East. Joe ran a post office in India and took a job with the Financial Times newspaper.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Yorkshire
England--Scarborough
South Africa
Germany
Germany--Dresden
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
578 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
C-47
coping mechanism
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
entertainment
faith
fear
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
love and romance
navigator
recruitment
rivalry
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/8852/PHolmesGH1604.2.jpg
134f273cd93e015a7d789b8e877b159b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/8852/AHolmesGH161016.1.mp3
cc225552ec17450d62364d1a1b362db0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holmes, George
George Henry Holmes
G H Holmes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Holmes, GH
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer George Holmes (b. 1922, 1579658, 187788 Royal Air Force) his log book, records of operation, newspaper cuttings and photographs of personnel. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 9, 50 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Holmes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-21
2017-01-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Mr George Henry Holmes. The interview is taking place at Mr Holmes’ home [deleted] Lincolnshire on the 16th of October 2016.
GH: Yes. I had some very lucky escapes. We had, we were going to [pause] I’ve written it down. I’ve got a terrible memory.
[pause]
GH: Stuttgart in Germany. And of course they originated in France thinking possibly that there wouldn’t be many, many night fighters there but we got caught and we got shot and it took off the bomb bay doors. They fractured the starboard wheel, ruptured the main spar and left us with cannon shells stuck in the fuel tanks which is actually really instantaneous. And we did a belly landing when we got back and I was one of the first out and running. Somebody said, ‘Are you frightened?’ I said, ‘Have you seen a Lanc go up in flames?’ And the bloke said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘Well. Well, when you do you’ll run faster than I do.’ And actually they took these cannon shells away by the, if you handled the armament, whatever and emptied them they found out that the cannon shells actually had been filled with sand instead of explosives. Otherwise we would have gone up in one. And that was once. And another night someone on a circuit when we were coming, of course I was at Skellingthorpe at the time and there were about five or six airfields all around. And we had a bump and nearly got tipped over by the windstream of another aircraft. And when we landed there was about five foot off the end of the pit, of the end of the aeroplane gone. That was, I think we could call a very near miss. And all through my career they used to say you’ve got to get it right. The good crews survive and the bad crews don’t. But when you’re dealing with an aeroplane that’s attacking you at about between five and six hundred mile an hour you don’t have time to work out all the superlatives. You just learn how to, well you have to try to get him in to four hundred yards for the ammo to be, do any damage whatsoever. And these would wait about a thousand yards and pump these things in to you, you know. But, yes we lost a lot of young men at the time. Look back sometimes and I think how the hell did we get through it?
AH: How did you come to join the RAF?
GH: Mixed feelings. I was living in Kettering at the time and I would be about six years of age. I’d only just joined school which was a joining age in those days of about six years I think and I saw the R100 or the R101 in the sky. A most amazing sight. And of course everybody was reading Biggles books so I wanted to be a Biggles man. And my father wouldn’t sign any papers for me so when I was eighteen I went down and joined the RAF as an air gunner. But there were so many enlisting at the time it was over twelve months I think before I was called. And they wanted me to be a pilot or navigator. I said, ‘No. I want to be an air gunner W/Op.’ Anyway, I finished up there. They made me a wireless operator / air gunner. Well, up to going into the air force I’d hoped to be a semi-professional musician because I played the violin from seven years of age to when I went in the air force, eighteen. And I played the violin, trumpet and a mandolin. And the man who was teaching me he used to make instruments and he was going to teach me how to make them. And, you know when I went in the air force I was in the air force for just over five years. I couldn’t get back to the standard that I was in and work for a living at the same time because you’ve got to put about two to three hours a day in you know, to it. So I abandoned the musical stuff. And actually I was at an old miner’s school. A corrugated tin hut thing and when we moved to Leicester and I was a top boy at the school. The teaching, they taught us in that stinking little old tin hut was beyond their, what they were teaching us in there. They told me I couldn’t do joined up writing. We’d got to go back to scroll, you know. But I went to a school that was attached to the College of Art and Technology and I was studying textiles and hosiery. And I earned a very good living through the entire working life producing socks, stockings, knee socks and things like that. Of course you got paid in on production in those days. You didn’t get a standing wage. The more you made the more you got paid. And you were allowed ten needles per week and if you broke more than that you had to pay for them. Six pence each I think they were then. The unions would go bloody mad now wouldn’t they? [laughs] I had a very good education really. I was very fortunate. I was almost fluent in French. The French master said, ‘I can’t understand you, Holmes. You’re the worst pupil I’ve ever had. You’re always talking, take no notice, I can’t understand how you’ve got top of the class in French.’ And I said, ‘Well, it’s simple. You gave us a half an hour’s homework and I always got an hour. So I worked harder than anybody else.’ [laughs] But I had a very good — my parents were not wealthy. My dad was a manager of a, the management of a grocery shop. You know these, what they were before the war. Several strains of food, food retailers and I really thought I was going to be a semi-professional musician. But I abandoned that scheme altogether and I got my sleeves rolled up and got stuck in this hosiery thing. ‘Til the war of course and then I couldn’t get, I couldn’t wait to get in the air force. And I finished up as a wireless operator / air gunner due to the fact, I always presumed, I don’t know whether it’s true or not but the fact that I had learned music, got some dashes and all like that. Morse code came easy and I was a very good operator. But apart from that I had a very happy marriage. I’ve got one son. He’s sixty seven now. And a he’s a fourth [unclear] at Judo. But life is a wonderful thing. Not to be wasted. And when you look at the war and see the number of thousands of young people who were wasted in the war. And the building and the costs. At the end of the day you have to sit around a table and talk it over from the first day. Save a lot of trouble and strife. But of course in those days Bomber Command was the thing.
AH: So you wanted to join Bomber Command?
GH: Oh yes. But then when you say wanted to join Bomber Command I’d always worked shifts. Night shifts and three shifts and things. I thought if I go in to the air force I’d be alright. And what did they do? They stuck me on Bomber Command. It was night work. But it wasn’t altogether good so as you look in the book you’ll see I did quite a number of daylight operations.
AH: Where did you train?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Where did you train? Where did you do your training?
GH: Where did I do my training? It was wonderful really. I I went to Blackpool first of all. That was the Number 10 RS something it was called. Signals Reserve or something. And they were all radio personnel in the air force up there. And we had a bloke called corporal [pause] I forget his name now. Corporal. Used to take us to the arm drill and foot drill. And his stage name was Max Wall. Can you imagine a man like Max Wall teaching you? Amazing. And then I went down to Yatesbury for a radio course. And I was posted then to Manby in the ground wireless op ‘til they could fit me into an air gunner’s course. Well, Manby in those days was number 1 AS. Air Armaments School and they taught bomb aimers and air gunners. We kept going to see the groupie and saying, ‘Get us on the course for air gunners.’ ‘No. You have to wait until you come through officially.’ When it did come through we was at a place called Evanton. About forty mile north of Inverness. First time I’d been to Scotland. In June it was. And it was a wonderful summer. And it was the first time I’d seen the shaggy Highland cattle. And I was taken by Scotland ever after that. Then after that, the gunnery course, I was sent to Market Harborough which is now a prison. And I used to push off home every night. After being there about three weeks the CO said, ‘We’re getting rid of you. You’re never here.’ It used to take me an hour to get home from Market Harborough on the local bus through all these villages. Little villages. And I was posted to Silverstone. And at Silverstone if you went in and out by railway you could get a train called the Master Cutler which was a high speed train from Sheffield to London and back. It used to do that in forty five minutes. That was quicker than being in [laughs] And I got crewed up there then and joined the [unclear] so to speak but I suppose if you were young men you had to be in something. You had no objection. I mean, no one wanted you to be a conscientious objector or anything. There we were. I joined Bomber Command and I was very lucky because I got with some good crews and I must admit I was commissioned towards the end of the war as a wireless op and I got operational strain and one thing or another. I was a bit of a drunkard. The only way of overcoming some of the strenuous [pause] I mean the beer we were drinking in those days I think was 1.2 percent alcohol. The water you washed the glasses in was stronger than the beer.
AH: So did you drink mainly beer? Or did you drink other stuff?
GH: No. No. The doc said, our doc on the squadron, ‘Go out and get pissed. It’ll do you good. Don’t go on spirits.’ And I was based around here. Around Louth. One way or another. It’s so that when my wife and I decided to come and live here it was after I’d retired. It was a home away from home really.
AH: Where were you first based? Where were you based first?
GH: Where was —?
AH: Where were you first based? Which was your first base? Where were you sent first?
GH: Oh. At a place called Bardney. Just outside Louth. And we got there. The place was, looked vacant and we got out the transport and looked around and looked in the ditches and it was full of bodies. We said, ‘What are you doing down there?’ They said, ‘Bugger off, there’s a fire in the bomb dump.’ So we said, ‘Oh, we’ll leave you to it then.’ But anyway a guy put it out. And then we went from that place. I did six ops there. And then we went to Skellingthorpe where the pilot was made up to a squadron leader. And we were only allowed two or three operations a month due to the losses of experienced crews. And by the time we’d done twenty trips together he, the pilot and the navigator went over to Pathfinders as the rest of the crew did. And the, the crew got sort of crewed up but the wireless, he didn’t want a wireless. He brought one with him, the pilot. So I was a spare bod and I went with an Aussie crew. His name was Cassidy and he’d got it painted on the side of a Lancaster. “Hop Along Cassidy’s Flying Circus.’ And I finished up at the one near Boston. What is it?
AH: Coningsby?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Coningsby?
GH: Coningsby. Yes. Yes.
AH: What squadron were you in first?
GH: 9. And then I went on to 50 at Skellingthorpe and then I went on to 83 at Coningsby.
AH: And what planes?
GH: Lancs. Well, after the war, if you look in the book look I went on a tour to South America. They sent three what were called Lancaster Mark 21s I think. But in actual fact they renamed them to Lincolns. It was a bigger aircraft that the Lancaster. Especially built for the war against the Japanese. And we went right down the west coast of Africa and then across over the Atlantic to Brazil and then right down to Santiago. Flew over the second highest mountain in the world I think it is. Aconcagua. But by then I’d decided I would take a course, this course on radiography, radio operating and get on to the public airlines. And I’d met my lady who I married and I found out that to be on public airlines you were away for home for anything from six weeks to three months. I thought well that’s not right. So I docked that and as I say I stayed in the hosiery trade. Yeah. Had quite a varied existence one way or another.
AH: What did you do in South America?
GH: Demonstrated the aircraft. I think they’d got that many four engine aircraft they didn’t know what to do with them and they were trying to flog them to anybody who’d buy them. God knows where all the aeroplanes went to. They just suddenly disappeared.
AH: And what was it like there?
GH: Pardon?
AH: And what was it like? Were they interested?
GH: Interesting.
AH: Were they interested in the aircraft?
GH: Oh very much so. Yes. Yes. Whilst we were there there was an earthquake in Peru and they wished us to send someone who would take some supplies over to Peru for the earthquake. And the air force said they couldn’t be allowed to do that because although we’d get to Peru and land they hadn’t got an air force runway long enough to take off so we’d be stuck. But yeah. Funny thing was we all decided when we were going to Brazil we would get together and learn Spanish. And when we got to Brazil they didn’t speak Spanish. They spoke Portuguese [laughs]
AH: How long were you out there for?
GH: Oh not very long. I should think, well if you look in the book it’ll tell you how long. About four weeks I think. We did one leg of the journey per day. And —
AH: And when were you demobbed?
GH: When? I think it was June of 1945.
AH: And how long were you in 9 Squadron?
GH: Pardon?
AH: How long were you in 9 Squadron?
GH: Only a few weeks. Not very long.
AH: What was it like?
GH: Quite an eye opener really. Mainly we were supporting the invasion. In fact that was the first time I’d ever seen the white cliffs of Dover coming back from France on D-Day. As I say all the boats going over.
AH: How did that feel?
GH: Have I —?
AH: How did that feel?
GH: Satisfied I would think would be the only expression. That we were doing something. And of course that’s another point. I mean I don’t know whether you’ve watched it on telly but they give you films of the actual landings in France and they chuck the blokes out into the water that was about six foot deep. They were drowned. Never got to France at all. Instead of waiting for the tide to go out. Some damned idiots in this military attitude.
AH: What did you think of Bomber Command?
GH: Well organised. To a certain extent they were very well organised. Many actual Bomber Command crews packed up before they’d completed a tour of course because it was a great strain. I remember doing a daylight on, I think it was at one of the flying bomb sites when they were launching flying bombs. And of course Bomber Command never flew in the way the Yanks did. They had three people from leading in and everybody was sort of doing what they called a gaggle at the back. And we were close up behind this three Bomber Command [pause] well, leaders I suppose and I looked up and saw an aircraft above was opening his bomb doors. I thought it’s going to drop on him shortly. Anyway he did. He dropped them and then it just floated down. Hit the aircraft on the right hand side, the starboard, knocked his wing off and he spun over and tipped the wing of the other who went that way and he tipped the wing of the other and went that way. And there were bodies without parachutes floating around and everything. And it was Cheshire who was controlling the raid. Called the raid off because he said the chaps didn’t stand a chance if we bombed it. So we flew back to the North Sea and dumped the bombs and went home. But the things like that they were happening every day. You know, I mean I’m afraid you accepted it.
AH: Do you remember where you were going on that raid?
GH: Not completely. No. Because there were one or two launch sites for flying bombs. I mean at one time as far as I know they were, they were launching something like ten thousand pound. Ten thousand flying bombs in a matter of a month or whatever, you know. I mean they were really showering the south of England with them. And —
AH: And how did you feel when you saw the bombs coming?
GH: I hope to God it misses me. To be truthful. But it was a sight, you know. Their only, these aircraft which they hit and damaged were only about a hundred, hundred and fifty yards in front of us. A matter of three seconds or something isn’t it? The speed we were flying at it could have been us. But many of the young lads who joined up when I joined up never finished. They were killed. A great deal of loss of human youngsters. Many of them technicians and people we missed after the war finished because of their experiences. And if you take that you promise me I will get it back?
AH: Yeah.
GH: Because I applied for the Aircrew Europe Star which was allotted to everybody who did two or more operations before D-Day which I did and I was told I didn’t, I hadn’t done enough. So when they issued the Bomber Command medal at the end of the war they said I couldn’t have that either because I’d got the 1939-45 Star or something. I don’t know. I thought well that’s great. I did twenty one ops and I never got a bomber medal. It’s unbelievable some fairy in Whitehall who was domineering the life span of the one doing the work. But the main thing I need at the present moment is some backup somewhere to get, I mean I mentioned to you earlier how much it cost. I was only getting two hundred and ninety pound a month. That’s about seventy pound a week towards the cost of being here and it was costing [pause] what was it? Well, a monthly, the monthly cost here is three thousand and forty one which is quite expensive. I think it’s a very good. I get my monies worth. But I think the company, the government or whoever, the Department of Works and Pension allow me something to help me pay for it and they want [coughs] they just knocked off the pension credit. I’m about two and a half thousand pound a month worse off when I got a pay rise of two pounds and fifteen pence [pause] In other words hard luck isn’t it? You know I mean I’m not the sort of person who is laid back and you handed something but I’ve worked all, all my own life. What I’ve got I’ve chased the work of one kind or another. Whether it was in the air force or out. And I’m disgusted actually to think the money that gets wasted.
AH: Could I just ask you a few more questions about the war?
GH: Yes.
AH: What did you think of the way Bomber Harris was treated?
GH: Disgustingly. As I said earlier he was blamed for bombing the population whereas the targets were selected by the War Committee. And the two leaders of that were Lord Portal and Winston Churchill. Bomber Harris was behind his crews all the way. Next question.
AH: Where did you go after 9 Squadron?
GH: With 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe. That was, it was so far to the sergeant’s mess from where we were displayed in Nissen huts we used to go into Lincoln for breakfast [laughs]
AH: What sort of squadron was it?
GH: What 83? Er 50?
AH: 50.
GH: Very very compatible actually. The man who was my pilot took his place as flight commander was Metham. He finished up deputy leader of some bomber group. Was it Metham? He’s a well-known, established leader of the Royal Air Force.
AH: Was that a Pathfinder squadron?
GH: No. No. They only had two Pathfinder squadrons. They were both at Coningsby. 83 and 97.
AH: Were you in them at all?
GH: I was on 83. I did, I think nine trips with 83 Squadron. They said that it was easy on Pathfinders of course. You, if you’re first flare leaders putting the flares down you went over and laid your flares and shot off home but they didn’t tell you when you started laying your flares you had to put it in automatic pilot and you couldn’t drift. So by the time you got to the end of laying the flares the Germans had got all the information of what you were doing [pause]
GH: And I have the greatest admiration of the German people and Germany itself. Moreso than any other European country. I have a great ideal, great ideals of them. They’re a wonderful people. We should never have gone to war against them. Well, should we?
AH: What do you think we should have done?
GH: Pardon?
AH: What could, what could Britain have done instead?
GH: Shot Adolf Hitler. It was a dictator. A man who believes beyond his experience. I think, well what’s happening in the world today? I mean we’re now fighting the, oh ethnic crowds that we were fighting in the days of Christ. For two thousand years we’ve been fighting. Still doing it and we’ll lose in the end. Of course people say they mean good. If you read the Koran as far as I remember the first rule is thou shalt now kill. And I think the fourth one is thou shalt kill all non-believers. So it leaves you in a sticky mess. And they’re gaining popularity all the while.
AH: When did you read the Koran?
GH: I haven’t read the Koran. I’ve read extracts from it. I’m quite interested in reading other people’s religions and of course in actual fact I believe in the bible which says when you die it’s ashes to ashes and dust to dust. I don’t think there’s a heaven up there. I don’t think there’s anything like that. I think it’s just, you’re just dead meat. Unfortunately. And many many people leave their readings, writings and paintings to be perused over and you get the benefit of their experience.
AH: Have you written anything?
GH: Written anything? Only rude things on the wall [laughs]. No. I wish I could have written things. I was too busy with music. As I said I went to a school where we had possibly an hour to two hours homework every night of various kinds and I didn’t really get out amongst other young fellas of my age because I was doing one to two hours music training as well. Now, the school I went to had started a school orchestra. Violin, banjo and drums. And I loved music. But as I say when I went in the air force I didn’t take a violin with me and I should have done I suppose. After being in five years my fingers were all stiffened up with, didn’t work. So I abandoned it straightaway and got on with earning a living
[knocking on door]
GH: Come in.
Other: Sorry to disturb you.
AH: I’ll just put this on pause.
[recording paused]
GH: They don’t look like reading my writing for a start. But there’s a cutting in there I think I mentioned it earlier on from Stalin who stated he wanted the Bomber Command to burn Dresden because they were using it to refuel the battlefield. And it wasn’t so because after the war I were working with some of the replacement Polish people and they said they’d been in Dresden and there were no army facilities there at all. There was no reason for them to bomb it.
[pause]
GH: And I have a younger sister who’s ninety in October. Laurie. So we’re quite a long lived family aren’t we?
AH: How old are you?
GH: Ninety four. Feel a hundred and four [laughs] some mornings. Yes.
AH: You’ve got a picture here of Squadron Leader Munro.
GH: Yes. He wanted to crew up with us. He’s just recently died you know. A New Zealander. That was when I was at gunnery school at Scotland.
AH: Which one’s you?
GH: How dare you say that [laughs] I haven’t changed that much at all surely. I’m the shortest one. Yes. And that’s my favourite photograph of myself.
AH: That’s nice.
[pause]
GH: Yes. It’s a wonderful world and I’ve met some wonderful people and I’ve had some wonderful friends and relatives. It’s been enjoyment. Mixing the good with the bad makes you appreciate it all the more. We came out of there as you go in.
AH: You talked about the strain of it. What was the worst strain?
GH: Being with Bomber Command? Well, naturally the, the operations themselves. They were well organised, I don’t mean like that but I mean they always taught us the best crews will get through. Did I mention to you before luck has a lot to do with it? And I mean a matter of seconds in some cases. I never flew as an air gunner though. I was in the Home Guard before I went in the air force. In Leicester. Well a little village outside Leicester called Narborough. And they used to send me out on a railway bridge defending the bridge at night time with a bayonet fastened to a broomstick with string. I don’t know what you were supposed to do with it. I had a few thoughts. But by the time I went into the air force I was fully trained and I’d got a Canadian Ross rifle that was in a cloth bag with about two inches of grease all around it. And I cleaned it up and the stock of it was beautiful. Lovely gun. And one of the chaps, he was a sergeant. I think he must have been a sniper. He said, ‘I’ll teach you how to fire a gun George.’ Because,’ he said, ‘Let’s face it. Who’s the last person that knows when you’re going to pull the trigger?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ He said, ‘Well you don’t pull the trigger. You squeeze your hand. And you don’t jolt it.’ And I could hit an eight hundred target, a bull at eight hundred yards. Which is quite good shooting I think. But I never did fly as a air gunner. I flew once as a tail gunner. And the tail one was like that. You knew all I got it I knew I wouldn’t have that for long.
AH: Did you get bombed yourself?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Did you get bombed yourself? In Leicester.
GH: Well, Leicester got bombed while I lived there. But we lived on the outskirts. And of course like most targets they usually go for the city centre first where all the main multiples are. And I was, I was quite happy in the Home Guard because we got very very good training. Initially it was useless. For the first two years. But when they got organised they got organised. And I sit and watch “Dad’s Army,” you know. And I I don’t know who picked the cast but it’s amazing to think [laughs] they look like real people [laughs] Anything else?
AH: Did you meet your wife during the war?
GH: No. I met her after the war. One of the boys who’s died in the last two years from Leicester was in training with me all the way through and he finished up at Coningsby on 97 Squadron and I finished up on 83. And his wife and my wife or future wife or his future wife, they used to go dancing Saturday nights together. And I met this girl one night in the RAF club. And I can’t understand that, I can’t explain the feeling but she was wonderful. And I said, ‘Can I see you again?’ And she said, ‘Well, I can’t see you for two weeks because I’m going up to Lincolnshire. To a town that you’ve never heard of.’ Well, I’d done all my training and everything here so I said, ‘Well, try me then.’ She said, ‘Louth.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve got news for you. I can’t go to Louth again [laughs] They’d shoot me.’ And she was always dying her hair. I think after the first two months I knew her she must have had about six or seven changes of colour. She was lovely though.
AH: What was her name?
GH: Barbara. And when we first got married we had to live in the front room of my mum and dad’s house until we could get somewhere. Everyone does I suppose. And her uncle was a butcher and he used to do all the joints of meat for Leicester. And this friend of his, a friend of his or someone in the trade he dealt with was the housing minister for Leicester. And in those days you couldn’t get housed if you hadn’t got a wood licence. You had to have a timber licence. And he mentioned to this gent that I was having trouble with my wife’s breathing because my mother and father had a dog and she was allergic to dog hair. And he said to this young gent, ‘He’s just come out the air force and he definitely wants a house but, and his wife is allergic to dog hairs and has to get out, you know of home and have his own place.’ And the fellow twiddled it a little bit and got me a timber licence and away we went. We bought a semi for nineteen hundred quid. And then after a while we bought, we bought a complete des res like, you know what do you call it? A house on its own at, in Oadby near to Leicester at the back of the racecourse and you got a full view of the racecourse. And I used to say to people, ‘I’ve got a nice place. There’s about four furlongs of grass at the back and they came and cut it, you know regularly,’ [laughs] But as I say we had this problem with this hooligan who was threatening her so that’s how we moved to Louth. But I mean moving to Louth was like going next door to the pair of us because we’d both been here so many times.
AH: Did you like Louth?
GH: I think it’s very nice. And I think once you get into Louth the people will do anything but they’re a little offish at the start. But it’s a lovely little town. I was born in Mansfield. In the Sherwood Forest. But I did like Louth there. Very much.
AH: What was your home like there?
GH: Where?
AH: In Mansfield.
GH: Well, I was brought up with my grandparents. I wasn’t brought up with my mother and father. They couldn’t get anywhere to live in, although my sister had been born. They wouldn’t accept anyone with two children so they farmed me off with my grandparents. My grandmother Holmes, when I was six or seven or eight years of age taught me how to sew and darn and knit.
AH: Did you have use of that later?
GH: Yes. Because I went into the hosiery trade and it was the machines that knit things make exactly the same loop as you do a knitting pin. And of course as I say I, I had a quite a few jobs. The job I had at Byfords. The other chap working next to me who was in his forties hadn’t been taken to the army. Hadn’t been called up. With a wife and two children. He always used to go down smoking in the toilets about once every hour and I used to run his machines as well as mine. And one day, you used to put your earnings under the table where they kept all the yarns and everything. He had a sneaky look and he found out I was earning more than him. So he went to the manager and he said he didn’t see any reason why someone’s underage that were in machinery should be earning more than he did. So they said, ‘Oh alright, we’ll give you two of his machines. They had me in the office and they said, ‘You’ve been bragging.’ I said, ‘What about?’ They said, ‘What you earn.’ I said, ‘I daren’t tell my father what earn. He’d go mad.’ I was earning as much or twice as much as my dad. And they said, ‘Well, we’re going to take two of your machines off you and you’ll run them for him.’ So I said, ‘I have an idea now. You can stick them up your arse.’ And they gave him the bloody lot. I got sacked for insolence. I got another job. I was never out of work. I got training that was necessary and I could go anywhere. I worked at Byfords. They sacked me three times after that incident and a very good job. The only snag is when I went into it before the war you were using cotton and well, wool and the machines were covered in like a white powder from the cotton in the wool, you know. And after the war when they started using synthetic fibres I think the synthetic fibres were so small you swallowed them. And I have a difficulty with breathing actually which is due to that I think. But nobody would say so because you then would jump then and say I want paid for being. I don’t think, I don’t think there’s more than one or two hosiery factories left in Leicester and it used to be the main city for hosiery. But that was all, that was all shift work. Night work and not very conducive for family life. I used to go to work because I mean you were busy. It didn’t bother you but my wife was stuck at home on her own you know and I didn’t realise until after I’d lost her that that’s what the problem was really. Basically. But we had a good life together. Yeah.
AH: Was your father or your grandfather in the First World War?
GH: Both my father and my wife’s father were in the First World War. My wife’s father was stationed at Louth here. In the Leicester, what did they call it? It was a mountain brigade. And he was only a little bloke. Smaller than me. And he looked like, well you just couldn’t imagine him sat on a horse.
AH: What he was called?
GH: Pardon?
AH: What he was called?
GH: His surname? Evans. Evans. Good Evans. I went to Edmonton for my gunnery course and we had a group captain called Group Captain Evans Evans and he got awarded the French medal. The Croix de Guerre. And he said, ‘Although I flew in World War One I’ve not flown in World War Two and I don’t think I deserved it. So I shall get a crew together and fly.’ So I went to my CO and I said, ‘Look, old Evans Evans is getting a crew together.’ We had a chance to get in because at that time I was a spare. And he said, ‘No, I don’t think so. My wireless op is covering that because he’s one behind everyone else in the crew and we all want to finish together.’ And off they went and they were shot down by the Americans before they got to the war. Before they got to the war line they were shot down by the Americans. And the only one that got out was the rear gunner. So that was another lucky escape. Just how the penny drops isn’t it? Am I boring you? Say so if I am. Anyway [pause] I am suffering really from the breathing quite badly.
AH: Shall we finish?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Do you want us to finish?
GH: Yes.
AH: Thank you very much.
GH: Quite all right. If it’s been of any —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Holmes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-16
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHolmesGH161016
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Brazil
Chile
Germany
Great Britain
Peru
Chile--Santiago
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Stuttgart
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
Description
An account of the resource
George was born in Mansfield and was bought up by his Grandparents until he was seven when he moved back to his parents in Leicester where his Father ran a coffee shop. He was a semi-professional musician playing violin, trumpet and mandolin. He studied hosiery at college and worked in hosiery production his entire working life. He joined the Home Guard in Narborough, and recalls how he defended the railway bridge at night time with a bayonet fastened to a broom stick with string. After volunteering for the Air Force he was sent to Blackpool for training. The corporal who taught him foot drill went on to be the comedian Max Wall. He was then sent to RAF Yatesbury for his radio course, and then forwarded to the Air Armourers school. After completing the course, he was posted to RAF Evanton for a gunner’s course. His next posting was to RAF Market Harborough, but was only there for three weeks before he was sent to RAF Silverstone for crewing up. His first station was RAF Bardney with 9 Squadron for a few weeks. He remembers that when they arrived at Bardney it was deserted and they found everyone lying on the floor in the kitchen as the bomb dump was on fire. The crew were then posted to RAF Skellingthorpe in 50 Squadron and they completed 20 operations. George recalls a daylight operation on a V-1 site, and he witnessed the Lancaster that was above them blown up and seeing the bodies of the crew falling past their aircraft. The crew were then split up when the pilot and navigator joined the Pathfinders and he became a spare bod. He eventually joined an Australian crew in 83 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and completed a further nine operations. His pilot was called Cassidy and the nose art on the Lancaster was “Hop along Cassidy’s Flying Circus.” After the war he took part in a tour of South America and discusses an earthquake in Peru. He discusses his religious beliefs and how the war, Bomber Command, and Arthur Harris have been remembered. He met his wife Barbara after the war at a dance in the RAF club and they had one son.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:08:02 audio recording
50 Squadron
83 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bomb dump
bomb struck
bombing
civil defence
crewing up
faith
forced landing
Home Guard
Lancaster
mid-air collision
nose art
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Bardney
RAF Coningsby
RAF Evanton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/595/8864/PLashamB1501.2.jpg
da6d480d6a799fe46724652cc35229e9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/595/8864/ALashamB150716.1.mp3
8a9d33f42649006ef03208c246e5f74a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lasham, Bob
R L C Lasham
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lasham, RLC
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer R L C Lasham DFC and bar (1921 - 2017, 161609 Royal Air Force)and a photograph. After training in the United States and Canada he flew 53 operations as a pilot on 9 and 97 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bob Lasham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins..
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay, so this interview’s being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody and the interviewee is Bob Lasham, and the interview’s taking place at Bob’s home in Wilmslow on today, the 16th of July 2015. So, thanks for agreeing, Bob, and if perhaps if we can start off and just tell me a little bit about early life, schooldays, et cetera?
BL: I’ll start at the beginning. I’m a Cockney; I came to be a Cockney because they say a Cockney’s someone who is, was born within the sound of Bow Bells, and I was born within two hundred yards of the Whittington Stone, where Dick is supposed to have heard the Bow Bells. Well, we had the Underground running underneath, tram running outside, I might not have done. But Laura and I [?] were on holiday to the Isle of Wight and the [unclear] Centre’s there, and I submitted their claim to them, they came to me [?] and they said ‘You’re trying to cheat, aren’t you?’ [slight laugh] So that was that. Elementary school, passed what they called a trade scholarship, so I went to a junior technical school in Kentish Town, travelling to and from on the Underground, penny return, yeah. [clock chimes]And – got my hearing aid in and it sounds so loud!
AM: And, as you can hear, it’s now eleven o’clock and the bells are chiming.
BL: Looking around for an apprenticeship, my parents said, ‘Look for a company which has a pension scheme.’ Went to three companies: Smiths, who used to make motorcars and instruments; a tool-making company in the middle of London, I would have liked to have gone there but they only had employed just over a hundred people, no pension scheme, so I went to British Thomson-Houston, very well-known company making heavy switchgear, electrical engineering. I realised later on I should have gone for mechanical engineering, but I wanted a reserved occupation. And, of course, the air raids started, and I realised ‘There’s a lot of work in this’. Whenever it was –
AM: [whispers] Sorry, carry on.
BL: Air raid one night, we all overlooked some playing fields, it was, like, a girls’ high school there, I used to look out of a window and watch them playing hockey, you know, dirty old, dirty old man, I was a young lad! [slight laugh] And the house directly opposite was bombed, we suffered some damage. If the bomb was at least a couple of seconds later, if it were coming from the east, it would probably hit our house. My parents were there, were in the Anderson shelter, I was asleep in the back bedroom, and I woke up covered with the ceiling. I think about that time I thought maybe it was safe to get out of London, and I think it was in about January or February ’41, signs were going up: people in reserved occupations can volunteer for flying duties in the Royal Air Force, the Fleet Air Arm, as part of [unclear]. So, couple of weeks later, I went down and volunteered, at somewhere near Euston it was, had an interview, very quick medical, and that was that. And three weeks later, had a letter from somebody or other saying would I go and report there again to register? I went in and saw the same people, said ‘Haven’t we seen you before?’ I said ‘Yes, you saw me about three weeks ago.’ ‘Oh, we’ve got all your details, you’d better go home.’ And I went home and waited, and finally called up in July, just after my twentieth birthday.
AM: So July 1940?
BL: 1941.
AM: ’41, sorry.
BL: ’41. By that time, well, production of air crew was like a Ford production line, it was running so smoothly. And [unclear] an Air Crew Reception Centre, AR – ACRC, known to everybody as Arsy Tarsy. Still to this days, you meet people, ‘Oh, were you at Arsy Tarsy?’ Yes. And er, there for, we were there for about ten days where we were kitted out, inoculations, FFI - Free From Infection. Look at the curly bits, make sure you’re not carrying livestock around. That continued as long I was an airman or an NCO, but once you were commissioned, they didn’t do it anymore; yeah, officers wouldn’t have to take their time with people [?], I suppose. While we were there – I can remember our first corporal – oh, we reported to Lord’s cricket ground, and there must have been an intake of, every week, about, I would say, three or four hundred, divided into flights of fifty, and the person in charge of our flight was Corporal Schubert. Whenever I hear a piece of grotty music, I always say ‘That sounds like Schubert’, and someone said ‘How’s that?’ I said ‘You’ve never met Corporal Schubert!’ But he was a good-hearted soul. A lot of the corporals had a grudge on their shoulder; they’d been in the Air Force for ten or fifteen years just being corporal, they knew we would be sergeants, you know, within no time at all. [Pause] Catering: we used to queue up in flights of fifty, eat in the London Zoo, and before we had a catering shed [?], knives and forks, as you walked out, you swirled about in a bucket of water and put them to dry; [stage whisper] I think the bucket of water was used for soup later on! But I seem to remember, we seemed to live mainly on kippers and sausages. Not many animals left in the zoo, but those that were, I’m sure, were fed a lot better than us. Still trying to think of the people I know; amongst the people I did know, a fellow called Harry Wilson, I’ll tell you about him later on. And we finally got our uniforms, and we used to have a little white flash in our caps to say you were a training air crew, and we all trooped off to, I think it was the Odeon in Leicester Square, to see “Target for Tonight”. I think we saw that and, when we came out, having made a big mistake. Anyway, next stop, Babbacombe Initial Training Wing: basic navigation, lots of keep-fit exercises, we had our own section on the beach, we could go swimming, were there for, I think it was about six weeks. Now, night train, next stop, Wilmslow [comical sotto voce] in the wild, woolly north, you know, and I can remember getting out of the station and walking through what is now Wilmslow Park – probably Wilmslow Park then– to the RAF camp, with carrying a kit bag very heavily loaded, and we were there for, again, for about couple of weeks. The second week there, we were all issued with civilian clothing, so we knew we were probably going to America. Two days later, they took them back again. I can - the only thing I can remember about it – the little belts children used to use with a sort of snake buckle on it, that was to keep the trousers up, yeah! Anyway, the Americans were not in the war, but they changed their laws so we could go into America in uniform – more of that later. And, once again, we travelled by night up to Gruddock /Grenock[?], all got on board the Louis Pasteur-it was a French cruise liner, French cruise liner. Some of us were sleeping on the floor, some on – stretching out on the tables with their heads up. I was a lucky one, I managed to get a hammock. We were there for about twenty-four hours, the boat was – in Gruddock [?], the boat was rocking up and down, and got up the next morning, there was a north westerly gale blowing, and a very small convoy, only about six, six vessels, and I was sick, practically everybody was sick, I should think. And then, that night, we left the convoy and sailed straight for Halifax. It was a fast boat like the Queen Mary, and we were there in eight, was it eight days, I think. Greeted at Halifax, a sort of [unclear] WVS, and they arranged to send telegrams to our folks in England saying that we’d arrived safely in Canada. Was a place called Malton in [pause] I’m not quite sure what the state was, except that it was a dry state, no alcohol for sale, and we were there not very long and, again, got on the train – four days. I couldn’t realise, no country could be that big, no! We had one stop in [pause] we stopped in Washington on the way down, that’s right, and we had some hours to spare, so some of us got hired a taxi, went to see the Washington Memorial and – Lincoln, sorry, the Lincoln Memorial –
AM: Lincoln Memorial.
BL: And then we arrived at Jacksonville in northern part of Florida. Again, we got off and we were taken out for dinner by the people of Jacksonville, I suppose, fifty of us by then. Was another night train and we arrived in Clewiston. I don’t know the geography of Clewi- Florida; at the bottom, there’s a very big lake-
AM: Yeah, I’m just working my way down.
BL: Lake Okeechobee, and we were just on the edge of Lake Okeechobee, in the middle of nowhere. Clewiston was a one-street town; they had a cinema, the Dixie Crystal – it’s funny how you remember these things – a bowling arrow – a bowling alley with a black boy to put the, ah, the skittles up afterwards, we did that. And they were surprised to see us in uniform because they had not been using it, and on the way down, someone enquired if we were an American football team ‘cause we were in uniform! [laughs] That’s beside the point. And we arrived overnight – seemed to have lost clothing overnight [?] – into breakfast, and there was this jug of light brown liquid to drink, it was cold tea! I never drink cold tea, but it was a great thirst-quencher. And we started flying on – it was called a Stearman, Stearman PT-17, and instructor was a chap called Tom Carpenter, and I was having trouble going solo – talk about luck! Half the course had gone solo and he hadn’t really told me what I was supposed to do, but on our desk – we had a big desk we used to use for swotting [?] – there was a book on flying training, and looked up landing. You – as you level out, you let the speed decay and finally your paces [?] down on three points; he didn’t tell me that I had to do that! Following day, I did three landings, he got out of the aeroplane and said ‘You can go solo’. [Unclear] he said ‘Look, Lasham, I was a bit bothered about seeing you doing that, sending you solo, but I’ve seen you recover from so many bad landings, I knew you’d recover from that.’ [laughs] And training proceeded. They had what they called a basic aeroplane then, a BT-13. My instructor was a Mr Dirigibus [?] - I think he had [unclear] – and he sent me solo very quickly; he didn’t like flying himself, I didn’t do much instruction with him. And then on to the Harvard afterwards, which was a nice aeroplane, and – remember the name of the – Charlie Miller was my instructor, he was a very nice fellow. Finally passed out, got my – we got our wings, I think it was in May.
AM: So how long had that taken?
BL: It took us about six months and quite a lot of the course failed. At that time, we were going out to America never, never having sat in an aeroplane at all, and usually about a dozen of the fifty would fail because they had no depth perception. And suddenly, someone in the UK realised we wasted a lot of money doing this, so they started getting people to start going solo in Tiger Moths over here before the sending them abroad, and the people in Canada, people in America, people in South Africa, people in Rhodesia, all over the world. And I finished me training, back to Canada, came back in a slower convoy, arrived in Liverpool. Liverpool was packed! [pause] I think that was the post, another charity appeal, I expect [sound of mail coming through the letterbox]. I’m sure you could have walked from Liverpool to Birkenhead just jumping from boat to boat. What a relief it was to get back in the UK! And down to Bournemouth, just two or three days in Bournemouth, we were sent on disembarkation leave, so I went home and saw my parents, saw my grandparents – they can bring you down – saw me granny, you know, sergeant’s, wing sergeant’s stripes, walked in, first thing she said: ‘Have you been up in an aeroplane by yourself yet?’ [laughs] Had no idea what was going on. Anyway, there’d be [unclear] an Advanced Flying Use, AFU, at Shorebury – you try saying ‘Shorebury, Shrewsbury, Shropshire’, which was the address, when you’ve had a couple of beers, you’re spitting over everybody! – and converted to Oxfords. And by that time, they’d ask you what you wanted to do, and, having been bombed in London, I thought ‘Oh, I’d like to be a night fighter pilot!’ So, came from there to RA – what was RAF Usworth, now, I think that’s the North East Air Museum now, just outside Sunderland. [Telephone rings] Forget it.
AM: You ignore the telephone, Bob?
BL: I, I do, yes; I can always pick it up later, see if there’s been a message. Err…Sunderland, near Sunderland. The, what they called the [unclear] side, the one hangar, was north of the Sunderland-Newcastle road. The southern part, which was the airfield, is now buried under the Nissan car factory.
AM: Right.
BL: Yes, yes. Anyway, they always had a medical when you arrived there, medical [?] inspection. I was in this chair, there was this beautiful, blue-eyed, young assistant, Joyce Farleigh [?] [pause, sounds of someone moving around the room]. Anyway, I saw her a couple of days later, we started going out together, and we were flying Avro Ansons, training radio observers. It was the airborne radar, preparation for going on to night fighters and, ah, [pause] were there for three or four months, so I got in quite a few more hours, which was useful later on, and then to Cranfield, for night fighter OTU, and enjoyed that, because we flew Blenheim 1’s, Blenheim 4’s, Blenheim 5’s, and then went on to Beaufighters. And taxied in one night, I put one beer on my Beaufighter whilst I was taxied [?] away onto the mud, put off the course [?] They were picky choosy, as my, as my grandchildren would say, and over half the course were failed. So I then went down to Brighton for what they called reselection, and [unclear] selection mark [?] ‘What would you like to go? Would you like to go to Air Transport Auxilliary, ATA?’ I said ‘No, I’d like to go to Bomber Command.’ So, finished up on Lancasters. Went to [pause] I – did I? No, I had to do another AFU on Oxfords, another few hours, and then finally to a place called Brigsley in Lincolnshire (that was really out in the sticks) and did my Lancaster conversion. One hour – two hours on Halifaxes and the rest on Lancasters, I’m glad I didn’t fly Halifaxes, I can’t remember the name of my instructor. Station commander there was a Group Captain Bonham-Carter. But basic radio receiver in the air force before that was called a TI-9 transmitter reception set, and he had a microphone in his battledress pocket ‘cause he was hard of hearing, and – I’m going aside a bit now – there was a museum at Winthorpe, just outside Newark; he founded it after the war.
AM: Oh, right.
BL: Back to where we were. He always made a point of [unclear] all the navigators, bomb aimers and pilots before they left. And I mentioned a chap called Harry, met up at ITW, he went to South Africa for his training, failed his pilot’s course, moved to old [?] Rhodesia and did his bomb aimer course. And we met up at Cottesmore when we were growing up; he said the first word he said to me was ‘Aren’t [?] you looking for a good pilot?’ and I said, you could [slight laugh] I said ‘Yes.’ He went in for an interview, Bonham-Carter, and got around that he’d failed his flying test, and Bonham-Carter said ‘What were you flying?’ He said ‘I was flying a Hawker Hart’ and that was the end of the conversation: Bonham-Carter deaf and a bloke who can’t fly a Hart. Switched off and Harry walked out! [laughs] What else happened there? Had a flight engineer - again, no flying experience. Waltzed through [?] his flight engineer’s course, airborne, and he was airsick every time he went up, so he had to be taken off-line. Now, a chap on the course with me was Mike Beetham [?].
AM: Oh, yes, yeah.
BL: Now, he’d gone off on a short course, I pinched his flight engineer, chap called Bill Gates [?], and he flew with me the rest of my operations. And then, from there to 9 Squadron, got there just before the Battle of Berlin. Not much happened there, oh, yeah, well, I suppose things did happen. Second, second dicky flight with a second pilot to fly it with – we didn’t, see, you just stood behind the chap who was flying – and it was the opening of the Berlin, Berlin and back, then, two or three nights later, going with my own crew, Berlin again, not, not a good start. And coming back – mind you, I was away [?] and new my first operation – Rear Gunner Eddie Clarke, now, he was an old man, he was in his thirties.
AM: Very old.
BL: Oh, ancient, yes, he’d been a driving instructor, and his oxygen had failed, and heating, obviously [?] had failed, and the net result was, he lost all the toes on his right foot, was taken off-line and we never communicated again, I think he pa – later on, when I was more experienced, I’d have come down to a lower altitude, but then they said ‘Stay with the stream’ and stay with the stream I did! [laughs] Great shame. I imagine, then, he probably had a job in the air force, he’d have kept his gunner’s badge, kept his sergeant’s stripes, possibly as a driving instructor. Incidentally, my wife did her driving at Liverpool – no, I’m sorry, Blackpool, yes, and passed her test there. [Pause] Anyway, 9 Squadron, again, luck. We used to do what was called bagging searches, so that I could look out my side and the flight engineer could look out his side, and we’d just started to roll and we were fired at, I don’t know, a [unclear], probably, so went into a corkscrew, and as we came up, I got another couple of bursts. If I’d have started that hanging search one second later, we’d have been shot out of the sky. My voice is going, isn’t it? [laughs] Anyway, we survived that. Again, rear gunner – from then on, we were getting any spare rear gunners – chap called Jack Swindlehurst, known as Jack Singleburst because he was a gunner, and a cannon shell hit the fire extinguisher behind his head and it peppered his shoulder with what was like gunshot wounds, but wasn’t seriously hurt, he was back flying again within a week. So, we carried on, and don’t think there were any other major, major instances there, and then Pathfinders.
AM: So this was 97 Squadron?
BL: 97 Squadron, yes, it was 9 Squadron before at Bardney. I wanted to go to Pathfinders, wireless operator said he’d be quite happy, so was my bomb aimer. Well, by that time, I’d collected another gunner, and a chap called Casson [?] (more on him later), and so off we went to Pathfinders. Now, a story goes around – I’m not sure this was my crew, which I suspect it was – three of them went to see Bennett and said ‘We don’t want to come to Pathfinders, we want to go back to your own squadron.’ He said ‘Well, I could post you back, but I’ll post every one of you to a different squadron.’ So they just decided to stick together. I made a promise, because people fell by the wayside, they’d be off flying, that I would carry on until everyone had finished his forty-five, which, that’s what took me up to fifty-three. So, off we went to Pathfinders. [Pause] Ah, luck again! I’ll come back to 9 Squadron: we were going to Leipzig, and I had a black navigator (my [unclear] chap was off with an appendix), Jamaican, the only black aircrew I ever met, very new, and they didn’t know anything about jet streams and so everyone arrived at the target early, apart from us, ‘cause he took us so far off track, we arrived there just as the raid was starting and came home, said there’ll be [unclear] there tonight, found out they’d lost sixty or seventy bombers that night. People were arriving early and circling, waiting for the Pathfinders to mark on time. They couldn’t mark early even if they arrived early, so again, luck came into it, yeah. Anyway, off to [pause] Warboys, that’s where we did three weeks’ Pathfinder training, including cross countries with an instructor, using the ground-marking equipment, H2S, and then to 97 Squadron at Bourn, and we were only at Bourn for three weeks, less than that, two weeks, didn’t operate from there, and we were posted back to 5 Group to do the marking for 5 Group, and Cochrane was CO, was Air Officer Commanding; it became known as Cochrane’s Private Air Force. Going back to Casson, my rear gunner. Just before leaving 9, I was allocated Casson, I think his crew had been killed, and he was unfortunate individual; he’d been a corporal physical training instructor, and I think he was rather keen to get the money of becoming a sergeant air gunner, but the only chap I’ve ever had had to have put on a charge. I felt he was – the crew used to go out to the aircraft every day, and the wireless operator was – wireless operator, rear gunner, [unclear] my upper gunner, and he never arrived on time and they had to clean his guns for him, so he was put on a charge that was modest and told not to do it again. But when we got to [pause] Warboys, doing our Pathfinder training, I was called to see Bennett himself, and my rear gunner had said he wasn’t going to – he was refusing to fly anymore, so Bennett said to me, ‘Well, when you get to squadron, don’t mention it to CO, because I think I’ve talked him out of it,’ but he hadn’t; when he got to Coningsby, he refused to fly, but I think he had more psychological problems. I gathered from my crew, amongst other things, he was incontinent, you know, he used to wet the bed, things like that, and he was taken off-line, what happened to him, I don’t know. Anyone who went – used to call it lack of moral fibre, anyone who had that disappeared quickly, because, in case it was catchy! Anyway, I was called in to see my CO, Wing Commander Carter, think it was, yes, and he told me what had happened, I said ‘Yes, I know.’ He said ‘Why didn’t you tell me?’ I said ‘Well, Bennett told me not to,’ and I said ‘AOC tells you not to, you don’t,’ he understood that. And then I picked up a fellow called Edward Coke – Edward Cope, known as Joe to everybody, he was one of the fellows [?] before – he’d been on Sterlings, and he’d done with the [unclear] on Sterlings, and we flew together for the rest of the war. Not much happened at 97; we were very badly shot up over Bordeaux on one occasion in daylight, finished up diverting to Manston. Crew said they found over eighty holes in the aeroplane, mid upper gunner suffered some facial injuries; I think the Perspex surrounding us was shattered, bit went into his face, but even in later life, on certain days, you could just see the scars ‘round here, but he was very lucky, you know, all the rest of us got away with, without any problem at all. [Pause] Was that during the –
AM: How many operations did you do with –
BL: Fifty-three.
AM: Fifty-three.
BL: That was Bordeaux. [Pause] Collateral damage, we were bombing Munich, and I always used to make a point of going into the briefing room to find out where the latest searchlight belts were, used to do this at 9 Squadron. There was three of us used to be there: myself, Pilot Officer Blow and a chap called Bill Reid, we were the only three who ever did this and we all three survived our operations. So, we were over Munich, and we were coned by searchlights, you could see people weaving all over the sky to avoid it. I knew that it was clear to the near [?] south-east: full power, downhill as fast as we could go, and suddenly there was the most almighty clatter [coughs] we didn’t know what it was, and had to put one engine out of action, came back on three. We’d been hit by the small incendiary bombs, and they hadn’t burned; they made some holes in the wings, they knocked an engine out, and we came back –
AM: Came back on three engines.
BL: On three engines, they flew wonderfully well on three engines, and then [pause] I’m getting towards the end of my tour then. [Pause] D-Day; I remember D-Day very well. Wing Commander Carter, this target-if you can call it a target-we were over the French coast for about ten minutes, that was all, and we also had a Norwegian crew on board, chap called Jespersen. Lost two crews that night: Carter the CO and Jespersen. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, there was a Ju 88 patrolling there, got both of them. Everyone else thought it was a bit of a doddle, but on the way back, Harry was calling the H2S, he was, he’d become [?] my bomb aimer, there’s a set operator. Actually, because crews haven’t as a good a H2S, they just kind of scanned the channels; of course, it was full of ships, when we got back, we found it was D-Day.
AM: So you didn’t know it was D-Day, going to be D-Day?
BL: No, we were not told, we were – obviously, it was very important, because we always used to test our engines before we went to mix the magnesium – mag – magnetos were working, but the first time, there was a problem with two of the plugs, and the whole squadron, the squadron commander stationed and engineer were there, but – ground crew again: when the engine skipper ran the engine, switched it off, they knew which plugs it was, and we were on our way within five minutes and caught them up, so that was Operation D-Day. Operated again D-Day that night, I was rather pleased about that, and I think it went all fairly smoothly from there. I was off sick for a time, can’t remember what it was, and going back to a chap, Bill Reid, who’d driven across country, I said ‘Bill, do you think you could go up to Millfield, RAF Millfield?” That was where Joyce was stationed as an MT driver. I should say – go back again, when we – Joyce and I got engaged in 1941, and by nineteen-forty [pause] nineteen-forty – 1942, 1942, and then, when I went to Bomber Command, we decided to put it on hold – I mean, chances of surviving – so it was on hold. And we could [?] going up to Millfield, ‘Could you fly me up to Millfield?’ He said, ‘We could do that,’ he got the details there, he said ‘Well, I can get it, get it in, I think I can get it out’ – it was the middle of the, middle of the Cotswolds – not the Cotswolds, the, ah –
AM: Chilterns?
BL: No, meant up on Northumberland, the – ah, the Cotswolds, that’ll do, is it near Northumberland? No, the Cotswolds are lower.
AM: No, the –
BL: It’s the, ah [pause]
AM: Can’t remember.
BL: Should do it.
AM: It’s up above the Pennine Way.
BL: Oh, yes!
AM: It’s the – anyway, near Northumberland.
BL: And we arrived there. It was a fighter leaders’ school and they were training fighter leaders, and there was this great big aeroplane came in, and they were looking around at the great big bomb bay, and, sheer luck, Joyce was going on leave, so I waited for her. Went down to Newcastle, I spent the night in the YMCA, met her next day, went back to see her parents, and got [unclear] re-engaged. I only had two more to do, did the two ops, and then I finished. From the day going up to Millfield to see her to getting married, about three weeks went by. People now, saving up to get married, five thousand pounds, ten thousand. It cost me two pounds, three shillings and sixpence. And way I remember that, we had to – I went up with Joyce’s mother to arrange the wedding, saw the vicar, and he says, ‘That will be two pounds, three shillings and sixpence’, and two-three-six was also the phone box number of RAF Millfield where I used to talk to Joyce occasionally, and we spent the night in the same house; I slept with her father and Joyce slept with her mother.
AM: [laughs] This is the night before the wedding?
BL: The night before the wedding. We didn’t have a best man, but there was a, a relative who had a shoe shop, he was called in as best man; Joyce had an aunt, Aunt [pause] oh, I’ve forgotten her name now, her husband was in the air force but he was motor transport driver, he was a North hatter [?], she was Matron of Noffon [?], Matron of, ah, Honour. So, we walked down to the church, no taxis available – well, it was only just down the road, RAF Wooler – is it Wooler, in – what are those hills called, what would they be?
AM: Cheviots, it’s not the Cheviots?
BL: It is the Cheviots.
AM: Cheviots.
BL: Cheviots, of course, those are the big ones called the Cheviots.
AM: We got there between us!
BL: Yes! [slight laugh] And we walked back again and – where did we stay? It was an old lady we stayed with: something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue, and she’d had Joyce a piece of lace done, and she wanted it back before we left, and we had our breakfast, caught the bus to Morpeth, stopped off and had tea, caught another bus to Newcastle, went to the cinema, the night train down to London packed like sardines. London – we, well, we were going to have our honeymoon in Exeter, the hotels were full, but Joyce’s parents knew someone who had a guest house down there, so booked us in there. So we had some – so I went up to see my mother, and she had met Joyce, and then down to Paddington Station, finally arrived in Torquay and met by somebody who took us to the house, absolutely shattered. Went to bed, we both fell fast asleep. [laughs] Anyway, I still remember the next day, I said to Joyce, ‘Well, what do you want to do now?’ She said ‘I’d like to buy a shopping basket, I won’t feel properly married ‘til I’ve got a shopping basket,’ and that was it, our honeymoon! Then back to the squadron, and they discovered I had a large spleen, so they were doing all sorts of investigations, I was at Coningsby for quite a long time; I thought I was on squadron strength and evidently I wasn’t, I was on station strength, so I finished [?] in October but I didn’t leave the squadron until beginning of January. They took me into Rawsby [?] Hospital. It had been what they used to call lunatic asylums, it was, yes, no privacy, all the doors opened both ways and the WCs, it was like the doors going into a Western saloon, know, they open both ways, so you – anyway, I had a, I still had a large spleen, so they gave me a temperate climate only better, ah, better category, which was just as well because it was about time they were thinking of going out to Japan and you would have had to go through tropical climates. Anyway, I was at Coningsby just doing nothing, you know, and eventually – oh, the commanding officer was a chap called Evans Evans, Tiny Evans, a Jimmy Edwards character - I’m going back, I’m going into reverse now. He decided he wanted to do some operations, so they said he could take my crew, and they did a couple of cross countries with him, so the first time, he put the aeroplane down and bounced over the [unclear] onto the aeroplane; the other time, he visited his brother, almost a twin, who was RAF commanding an American station, and he, he went down there with the crew and had a very liquid lunch, so he came back by taxi and the RAF took me down by transport to pick them up, and I met my crew outside the aeroplane, and the Americans were looking up at our bomb bay, their bomb bay was not as big as a sofa there, they could carry four thousand pounds, of course, we could carry eighteen thousand pounds, and to thrill them back [?]. One or two of them, they’d spent the night there, I think, had got these American woolly sheepskin hats on, one or two were smoking American cigars. Incidentally, people say that everybody smokes here, my crew didn’t smoke, I didn’t smoke.
AM: You didn’t smoke either?
BL: No, nope. And that was about the – oh [pause] Evans Evans, I got to know him quite well, very, very pleasant chap, and he wanted to sponsor me to go to Cranwell, he knew my background in engineering, to do an engineering course, and I said no, I wanted to carry on flying, so there was this vacancy going, Fighter [Unclear] Flight, flying Hurricanes. That was really good fun! Our CO was Les Munro –
AM: Oh, yes.
BL: Yes, he was New Zealander, wonderful character, and I remember when we were there, one night, we had a few drinks at the bar, and we knew we were operating, so we wouldn’t – the squadron was operating, we wouldn’t be working the next day, and I said ‘Would you mind if I took a Hurricane up to Millfield, to see my wife?’ and he said ‘Not at all.’ So, off, went off the next day, he’d forgotten: ‘Where have you been?’ ‘I’ve been to Millfield, you said I could go there!’ [disgruntled mutter-nonverbal]. One funny incident – well, funny for people who were watching it - at Metheringham was a FIDO station, you know, where they used to burn petrol and [pause] if you could imagine a triangle about so big with a metal pipe across, they used to pump petrol into it and that would clear the fog. I was waiting to take off in my little Hurricane, some other man [?] had a Spitfire: ‘Proceed to the end of the runway and use the taxiway.’ He started to turn off. ‘Proceed to the end of the runway and use the taxiway!’ Too late: there was the Spitfire standing on its tails [?]. Poor fellow, he spent the rest of his life trying to get, trying to explain why he did this, and everyone has heard that ‘cause he couldn’t say he couldn’t have heard the instruction. And then, about that time, maybe a bit earlier, an Air Ministry Order came out, an AMO: people who’d completed two operational tours and two non-operational tours could apply for secondment to BOAC or go to the Empire Test Pilots.
AM: So this is 1945.
BL: I’m in 1945 now, yes.
AM: Yeah.
BL: So, I applied for BOAC and got it and that was it, yeah. And I enjoyed it, I [pause] we did our training on Lanc – on Lancasters because we were going to fly Lancastrians, never came to anything-I had a Lancastrian on my pilot’s licence-and then we went down to Whitchurch, was a little aerodrome, it was the airport for Bristol in those days before they moved, and converted to Dakotas, and there was a couple of flights out as a second pilot to Cairo and back again and then they were, they were on a – just, what a lot of [unclear] – let’s say, anyway, I went to Northolt, where BEA – it was on land [?] BOAC, which was going to become-
AM: So they were just setting BOAC up at the time?
BL: Yes, but I was still in the air force on secondment and offered a contract with BOAC, and then BEA was formed, so I applied to fly for BEA and they offered me a contract, and they said, ‘You will never be worse off if you come to us instead of going to BOAC,’ flying out of Northolt. It was, it wasn’t no break going back to civvy life, it was like being on a squadron again, I knew half the people there, all second-tour people, and eventually, I got my command – Captain – and six hundred pounds a year. Six hundred pounds a year in 1946 was a lot of money; I remember when I was an apprentice, I was looking forward to the day when I’d be a rich man and earning five pounds a week! Six hundred pounds a year makes –
AM: In 1946!
BL: And, and then went into work one day and told I was going to Jersey. No choice in the matter, British Airways had nationalised Channel Island Airways and they wanted three Dakota crews out there, so myself, chap called Bill Hen, an ex-Battle of Britain pilot, and I can’t remember the third went out there with the three first officers, flying Dakotas and then flying de Havilland Rapid – de Havilland Rapide: [unclear] biplane, made of wood.
AM: Where were you flying to and who were the passengers? Were –
BL: Oh, this was civilians.
AM: So it’s a commercial airline by this time?
BL: Oh yeah, yeah, and became BEA, you see.
AM: But still on Dakotas, which had been flying in the war.
BL: Yes. Initially, BOAC would be carrying fifteen passengers and BEA were flying with eighteen passengers, and eventually they were modified, took the radio officer away, air officer away, and they called them Pioneers. We had thirty-two passengers, really squeezing them in in a Dakota.
AM: Thirty-two! So what was it like inside, then, for the passengers?
BL: Packed solid, yeah! The seats were about so wide –
AM: Bit like now, then, Ryanair.
BL: Yes, and flying Rapides, that was a – initially a seven-seater with a radio officer, and then a, and an eight-seater when you got rid of the radio officers. I must be one of the few people still living who flew Rapides into Croydon and into Gatwick, which was an, ah, a grass airfield.
AM: Oh, right! [laughs]
BL: A lot of grass airfields around at that time; Madrid, masses of runway, now, that used to be a grass airfield. And I carried on flying Dakotas in Jersey and –
AM: Did your - had your wife come over to live in Jersey?
BL: Oh, we’d all moved to Jersey.
AM: Okay.
BL: No NHS there; BEA paid my medical fees, I had to pay for Joyce and my son, quite expensive, ‘specially when you – antibiotics were a frightful price. We moved – we never bought anywhere in Jersey, we moved around in rented accommodation, and I quite enjoyed it there: come off a day’s flying, you know, and Joyce would meet me, have a swim before going home, and see so much more, know, you could swim from April through to September. I remember once, we come over on leave and up and gone to Druridge Bay in Northumberland, lovely summer’s day, I said ‘I’m gonna have a swim.’ I went off, I came back: ‘I thought you were gonna have a swim?’ I said ‘Yes, I got enough up to here, that was it!’
AM: So not cold up in Jersey?
BL: Well, yes. So, I think, in around Jersey, the tide doesn’t move in and out, it stays in the Gulf of Saint Malo, slowly, slowly warms up. My only accident occurred there; I stood a Rapide on its nose. No passengers on board, I put the brakes on too hard, it landed on its nose, bent propellers, and needless to say, there was a court of enquiry. But BEA was divided into two divisions then: British and Continental, and chief pilot of the British division was an old group captain I’d known in the air force, it was the old pals’ network.
AM: Old boys’ club.
BL: Yeah, he said ‘You can do’ – I spent the whole month doing [unclear], it was twelve flights a day, fifteen and twenty minutes, and nobody liked them because, it doesn’t sound very much, but twelve take-offs and landings, it was very tiring. [Pause] He was the chap – no, no, I was thinking of somebody else, at Northolt. There was one day, it had been snowing – this was nothing to do with me – and there was a Dakota took off and covered with snow and they’d had to clear the wings, and landed on top of a school and – sorry, landed on top of a house, just missed a school, and nobody was hurt, there was nobody in the house, all the crew got out. Needless to say, for the rest of his life, he was known as Rooftop Johnson, yeah, and he rose to great height and became a flight manager eventually. Viscounts, enjoyed flying those, and I – leaving Jersey, where did I want to go to? Well, my parents were living in London; Joyce’s mother, she was already by then in [unclear], so I chose Manchester, in the middle of nowhere, and –
AM: And that was Ringway Airport?
BL: Ringway Airport, yes, yes, little runways then, yes, passenger accommodation was in one of the hangars, and Smallman’s – was it Smallman’s – had the, had the restaurant there, the old RAF control tower, it was all very friendly. The crew hut was made of wood, you know.
AM: What year would – what year would that have been on now? Fifty -
BL: That would be 1953, yeah. And they booked me in at the Deanwater, Deanwater, just, just a room with a washbasin, no mod cons in those days, party on nearly every night, so getting to sleep was a bit difficult, and I was flying the next day, said to Joyce, ‘Go out and look for a house.’ Well, Joyce almost got lost, she picked me up, but we saw an advert, houses being built just the other side of Wilmslow, went to see one, saw the plot we liked and booked the house and [pause] by that time, I’d, was living in Baton [?] Road, Manchester, sharing a room with a wireless operator, he moved out and Joyce moved in with me, and we got the extra room, Michael was away at school, and we lived there ‘til we moved into the house, I quite enjoyed that. And then charge [?] came to convert to Tridents, which I did, yeah, lovely aeroplane, the Trident, and –
AM: How big is that, then? How big is the Trident?
BL: It was initially a ninety-seater with the –
AM: Ninety?
BL: Ninety.
AM: So much bigger.
BL: Much bigger, but the Viscount was about seventy or eighty, I think, I had the ninety-seater, and then there was the Trident 2 and the Trident 3, and the Trident 3 was – I think they’d gone up to about a hundred seats by then. They didn’t – it wasn’t really a commercial – they built a lot of them, though there’re many variants, I don’t think anybody made any money out of them, and [pause] back to Viscounts. Landing at Geneva, and, whilst I was with [unclear], and I was doing what we call a flapless landing ‘cause the [unclear] had been damaged, and landed, and as the nose wheel touched the runway, the whole back bit of the strut broke off, so we started to turn to the left and clear the runway, and there was a lot of smoke coming with the hot hydraulic oil. Passengers were evacuated, they didn’t use the chute, they got them out on the steps, and the fire was put out immediately. I’ve still got the headlines, was it ‘Bomber hero lands blazing aircraft [slight laugh] at Geneva’? And the reporters came ‘round to see Joyce, she knew nothing about it; well, she’d just had an airport – phone call from the airport saying ‘Bob, your husband, will be late coming home.’ The way they exaggerate these things!
AM: ‘Bomber Command hero’!
BL: Yeah, Bomber Command, oh, yes.
AM: Did they have air hostesses on the planes at this point? Did they have air hostesses and things like that on the planes at this point?
BL: No – oh yes, they did!
AM: Yeah.
BL: Yes, in Jersey, they were called flight clerks because they did all the paperwork as well.
AM: Okay.
BL: And all they did was hand out sick bags and barley, barley sugars, yes. [Pause] I’m trying to think of the funny incidents. When I was First Officer at Northolt, and I’d been flying – it was an unfurnished Dakota, the seats were there but nothing on the floor, and those days, the pilot had to brief the passengers, and chap called Panda Watson, he had a great big moustache, he was the skipper, and he went up to them all and said, ‘Ladies and gentlemen,’ and at that time, he slipped and fell on his –
AM: Oh, no!
BL: So, from then on, I – he kind of got me to do it. I remember doing briefing one day, just telling them where the escape exits were, where the life jackets were, I had one passenger say, ‘If I’d known it was so dangerous, I wouldn’t have, wouldn’t have flown!’ My parents used to come and see me in Jersey, but they wouldn’t fly; I would pay for their tickets, no, no, they came by boat, but Joyce’s mother came over several times and she was quite happy to fly. And, living in Jersey, we had a dear old neighbour, Mrs Brett, one of the old school, she lived next door, she was a widower for the second time, and she had some friends, and she used to go out, and going down to see her friends: hat on, folded umbrella or walking stick, upright, and she’d come back, hat on one side and a bit shaky on the stick. She liked – was it tonic red wine? I’ve forgotten what it was.
AM: Not, erm –
BL: It was – it wasn’t Sanatogen, it’s [pause] anyway, she was rather fond of it, and she was a dear old lady, she would knock on the door and say, ‘Are you at home?’ And we invited her in one day, we’d just got television in Jersey, and the Queen’s, Queen’s confrontation –
AM: Coronation, 1953.
BL: Queen’s coronation, not confrontation, she has many of those with her husband, I think! And she enjoyed that, and she used to talk about a wine she’d had in Italy called [stage whisper] Asti Spumante, a sparkling, sparkling, sweet, Italian wine, so we got a bottle of it and we had some sandwiches and she thoroughly enjoyed it. And when we moved from that house to another one, she gave Joyce a little silver napkin ring, and outside, this replica of sugar cane; her first husband was in trade, he was in sugar, yeah, and they lived in the Bahamas for many years, no children, but her second husband was a barrister, Mr Reginald Brett, so she always called herself Mrs Reginald Brett, never found out what her Christian name was, yeah. She died shortly before we left Jersey. Anyway, I wanted to get onto another type of aeroplane and we decided, like I tell you [?] to move to Manchester; people say ‘Why did you move?’ so I said ‘Well, we kept falling off the edge, so it was time to go.’ And that was almost the end, now: up to Manchester, converted to Tridents, and then on New Year’s Eve nineteen [pause] 1968, it must have been, Joyce had a – we were going out to a party, Joyce had a massive heart attack, went to Macclesfield. No – there was nothing there for heart attacks then, she was in a side room just receiving normal medical treatment, no, no resus units, no – what do they call them now?
AM: The – ah, the heart -
BL: Yes. Anyway, she survived, and that time, Manchester was converting to the Bac 1-11, the twin engine jet, and they were going to do a lot of, a lot of German internal flights, so I was going to be away for five or six days, or probably more than that, a month, five or six day tours in Germany, didn’t want to do that, so I stayed with the Trident and that did – I finished up going down to Heathrow for my last four years. [Pause] Nice little house in Windsor, it was a terraced house –
AM: In Windsor?
BL: In Windsor.
AM: Oh, very nice – oh well, so, sorry [?]
BL: Yes, it was, was nice, yes, we enjoyed it, Joy – but [unclear] Joyce never, apart from my working colleagues, she never got to know anybody there, they don’t speak to you there, we were living in Datchet initially, until we found somewhere to live. In Datchet, we were living in a 17th Century cottage, lovely old cottage, and it was run by two old dears next door, two ex-WAF who I think were both living together, if you know what I mean, yeah.
AM: I do.
BL: And then we got our own, own property, we saw a house in Datchet but decided against it; occasionally, the river would [?] slowly come into Datchet, then go out again, and we didn’t want a house that was going to be flooded.
AM: No.
BL: Whole thing, insurance premium would be very high, stayed in Windsor until I retired.
AM: So you flew all your working life?
BL: All my working life, yes, I retired in nineteen – retired from BEA in nineteen [pause] 1973, and moved back here, living in a very, very big house at Disley, almost a mansion, as someone called it, we were in, I think, four bedrooms, and, over the course of the year, made me bother [?] that they were used four, five times, so we cut our losses and moved here.
AM: And moved here. And it’s lovely, isn’t it?
BL: And got the Golden Wing [?], and then in nineteen-seventy – ’79 – through the old boy network, there was a job going, flying Viscounts up at Teesside, so I thought –
AM: So, after you’d retired –
BL: After I’d retired, the old boy network again, I knew the chap – it was a strange organisation, it was called Airbridge Carriers, so I was flying for Airbridge Carriers, being paid by Fields Aviation, and flying BenAir Viscounts, it was quite a mix-up. And so, we were flying out of Teesside, took the caravan up there, and that was it, we were quite enjoying that, ‘cause the people were friendly, Joyce wasn’t far from her mother, and then they decided we would have to go to Bristol. So, I decided I’d – I could have moved to Bristol, I couldn’t maintain my base where I was initially [?] at at Teesside, so I went down to Bristol, I was always accommodated in a hotel there, used to get [unclear] allowance, used to get so much an hour for being away from home, and flying the Viscount down to Bristol. Finally gave it all up and retired.
AM: And that’s it, you retired.
BL: I finally retired in nineteen – 1981, I finished flying, same year my father died, 1981, and that was it, end of flying career.
AM: Yeah. Blimey. The one thing I didn’t ask, go whizzing right back to the war years, was you’ve got the DFC?
BL: DFC and bar.
AM: And bar?
BL: Yes.
AM: So what did you get the DFC for?
BL: It was just end of, end of, end of tour.
AM: Okay, so doing a full tour.
BL: And the bar was end of second tour.
AM: And the bar was the second tour. Right.
BL: Yeah.
AM: Crikey.
BL: Yeah.
AM: There we are. I’m going to switch off now.
BL: Right, switch off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Lasham
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-16
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALashamB150716
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:57:50 audio recording
Contributor
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Richard Bracknall
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Lasham began an electrical engineering apprenticeship with British Thomson-Houston before volunteering for the RAF in 1941, aged 20. He trained at Babbacombe and Wilmslow before continuing to Clewiston, Florida, to complete his training as a pilot. On return to the United Kingdom, he underwent further training before being transferred to Bomber Command where he converted to flying Lancasters. He joined 9 Squadron at RAF Bardney and participated in operations to Berlin and Leipzig. His aircraft was heavily attacked and his rear gunner lost the toes on one foot because of oxygen and heating problems. He transferred to 97 Squadron Pathfinders; his aircraft was badly damaged over Bordeaux, returning from an operation to Munich. He flew on D-Day and later joined a Bomber Defence Training Flight. After two tours, he became a civil pilot and flew with BOAC and BEA. He also relates his engagement and marriage; the role of luck in his survival; and the support of a veterans’ network after the war.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Florida--Lake Okeechobee
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Munich
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Florida
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1944
5 BFTS
5 Group
9 Squadron
97 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
African heritage
aircrew
Beaufighter
Blenheim
bomb struck
bombing
British Flying Training School Program
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
Flying Training School
Harvard
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
love and romance
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
pilot
RAF Bardney
RAF Cranfield
recruitment
searchlight
Stearman
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/612/8881/AMorrisW170218.2.mp3
7e374361b81685a1980bb8038a13c8e3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Morris, Walter
W Morris
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Morris, W
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Walter Morris (b. 1923, 1623898 Royal Air Force). and his memoir. He flew operations with 630 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Walter Morris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
217-02-18
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AB: Ok.
GB: Hello.
WM: Hello. Lovely to see you.
GB: This interview is being conducted on behalf of International Bomber Command in Lincoln. With me today is Mr Walter Morris and the interviewer is Gill Barnes. Also present is Mr Andrew Barnes, my husband and the interview is being conducted on the 18th of January in Mr Morris’ home.
WM: 18th of February.
GB: February.
AB: 18th of February.
GB: 18th of February. Thank you Mr Morris for that.
WM: Very good. Yes.
GB: Yeah. So I’m — thank you very much for agreeing to share your memories with us today.
WM: Yes.
GB: They can be as informal as you like and in any order that you like. We’re really interested to know about how you felt during the war years and not just facts and figures but also the whole experience that you went through. But I know you’re a local man and that you were born and bred locally so just to give us a bit of background it would be interesting to know what you were doing before the war. How you came to be called up and how you came to enter your squadron.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And any other information.
WM: Yes.
GB: You’d care to share.
WM: Well as you say I was born in Kettering and I went to the Central School. I was a year above Pauline in the, in the school there and as kids we walked out together but going to the pictures was a bit of a trot trying to find one shilling and thruppence to go or something like that and we just drifted apart. But then at this time I was getting near to leaving school and I always think it probably prompted me a little bit. I was walking home from school and two Blenheim bombers came flying over and they were barely chimney height. You know.
GB: Oh my goodness.
WM: And it really, you know it’s something that lived with me ever since you see.
AB: Gosh.
WM: Anyway, a few months later I went to work at Corby. I started there on the 26th of August 1939.
AB: At Stewart’s and Lloyd’s. Yes.
WM: At Stewart’s and Lloyd’s sorry. And I I joined Stewart’s and Lloyd’s on the 26th and that same week war was declared.
AB: Oh gosh.
WM: And quite a shock when I went the following back to work after the following weekend and all the chaps of about twenty, nineteen, twenty. They’d nearly all disappeared. A lot of them had joined the Territorial Army. The war came and they all got called up so it was like starting again with that. But —
AB: Gosh.
WM: You know not long after that I realised that, you know I was going to get involved. I mean I was only sixteen at the time. If the war was going to last I was going to, I was going to be involved you see.
AB: You weren’t, you weren’t going to be involved in a reserved occupation or anything like that.
WM: No. No. No. Nothing like that. I was only an office boy really you know at the time.
AB: Right.
WM: But that was it.
AB: Oh gosh.
WM: So anyway it was on my mind. I think most people who would have been my age and I eventually, 1947, sorry ‘41 came along and the Air Training Corps was formed. I don’t know if it was Churchill or someone did it. And they had a big sort of advertising thing to get there and I remember going to Stanford Road School to enlist in it and there were over two hundred boys there waiting to sign up to join the Air Training Corps.
AB: Goodness.
WM: And anyway I went along. I suppose I was one of the older ones. In a year’s time I would have been going off to the war and they made me a sergeant and —
AB: Immediately.
WM: Yes. Well they had to form you know. So I was there and I then, in charge of the drill and all the rest of it you know. And I had a wonderful year really. We got people run it. There was the garage owner. He was the chief and then two or three school masters came along and the chemist, Boots, the manager there, he came along.
AB: Where was this based then?
WM: In Kettering.
AB: Oh.
WM: At Stanford Road School.
AB: So was the Air Training Corps Kettering based was it?
WM: It was Kettering based.
AB: Yes. Oh I see.
WM: 101 Squadron it was. Yes.
AB: Oh right.
WM: And anyway during that year I got to be eighteen and I volunteered for the, to fly in there and they were all volunteers. They were, you know, you weren’t called up to that. You just volunteered for it. And then I, there was normally a waiting time of what, about eight months. Something. Seven, eight months. The biggest shock of my life. This was in September. My birthday. December I had a thing to call me up and I had to go to Northampton for an interview and then from there later on I went to Cardington in —
AB: In Bedfordshire.
WM: Bedfordshire. And I got enrolled you see and then, ‘When can you come?’ You know and it started to get quite comical. ‘Can you come on Monday?’ ‘No sir. I can’t.’ ‘Can you come a week on Monday?’ ‘Yes. That’s alright,’ and I was, but I was, I was signed on you know. I had to give the pledge that you do and all the rest of it.
AB: Yeah.
WM: And I got my RAF number and the week before, the following Monday well I had to give up work straightaway. They let me go. They didn’t hold me up. I had to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground in February. February the 23rd it was so it [unclear]
GB: Yeah.
AB: 1940.
GB: ‘41.
WM: ‘42 this was.
AB: ‘42. Right.
WM: Sorry. Yes. Yeah. ‘42. Yes.
AB: ‘42.
WM: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: As I say yes when I joined it was ‘42. It was February. And so I went to Lord’s Cricket Ground you know. First time I’d ever been there you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: We were in the room of the, hallowed room as we were signing on.
GB: Gosh.
WM: And all the rest of it.
GB: Yeah.
WM: And then they formed us up and we walked to some very posh sort of flats in— that overlooked the zoo and they’d taken it over and it was a lovely flat. Would have been —
GB: Yeah.
WM: If there was just two or three of you in there but when there was twenty of you it was a bit hard going. So we started off and into the, we had to go into the zoo restaurant to eat. And that was our start you know so.
AB: Good gracious.
WM: They were all strangers to me. We all sort of welded together and —
AB: And you started your training then did you?
WM: Well not really. We had one or two exams.
AB: Right.
WM: We went from, we went to what they called Initial Training Wing and I went to Scarborough and I was there about four or five months.
AB: And you were training as a bomb aimer from day one were you?
WM: Oh no. No. No. No. I was actually hoping to be a pilot you know.
AB: Oh right.
WM: I think we all were, you know. So I did this three or four months at Scarborough. Then they moved me to near to Hull. I forget the name of the place now. And we flew in Tiger Moths.
AB: Right.
WM: And I never flew solo but they some, a wonderful old chappy he was. He was in the First World War. ‘Oh I think you’ll make it my lad,’ you know and he put me down for pilot training.
AB: Right.
WM: So I went from there to Manchester. We had to wait to get over to America where they were— either America or Africa. Canada. They picked you for Canada to go. And they took us up to Glasgow, near to Glasgow and got the ship there that we were going on.
GB: Yes.
WM: And we had a look. It was a misty day and then we saw the Queen Mary.
GB: Gosh.
WM: We went to Canada on the Queen Mary. That was quite a thing you know.
GB: Yes.
AB: Did you have any anxiety about submarines or anything like that?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Did you have any anxiety with submarines? Being torpedoed?
WM: No. As a matter of fact the Queen Mary and ships like that they never had any convoy because they were too fast. They reckoned that they couldn’t, you know, the submarines couldn’t —
AB: Couldn’t keep up with it.
WM: It would be a lucky shot if they got it, you know.
GB: Yeah. Gosh.
WM: ’Cause they were going too fast, and they were on a set zigzag course.
AB: Oh right.
WM: But anyway you know we had five days there and I think on board there would be about five or six hundred people. We got to Boston in America and transferred from there and they took us up to Canada.
AB: Oh right.
WM: But when we got to, we had a fit when we got to Boston. Took us off and paraded and in the front of the Queen Mary there was a gash as big as this room in the front of it. And, you know, ‘What happened here’ you know. And apparently it was on a zigzag course and there was a British warship somewhere and they couldn’t turn and it cut the —
GB: Gosh.
WM: It cut the ship in half and so they filled the front of the Queen Mary up with concrete.
AB: Concrete yes.
WM: And things like that to make it and took us across —
AB: To make it seaworthy. Yes. Yes.
WM: And then they put it out of service until while got it done.
AB: Good gracious.
WM: And that was a bit of a fit to start with you know.
AB: Yeah. Good.
WM: But then we went from there. And this was in October eventually. September. October. And we went up to Canada. Moncton in Canada and we went through the States on the American and it was, you know, I was only a kid of twenty at the time and it nearly, it was a beautiful day. Blue, the blue of the lakes and the sun you know and the leaves coming off all different colours. You know it was something that just stuck in my head all that time.
AB: Did you go by train or by bus?
WM: Sorry?
AB: How did you go? By train. Or by bus?
WM: Train.
AB: You went by train from Boston.
WM: Oh we went by train. Yes.
AB: To Canada.
WM: Yes. We went out from Boston in the evening and it would be the next afternoon before we got where we were going. So we got there and then from there they put us into quarters and I finished up going to Alberta and a flying field up there where we did the flying but the weather was a bit intermittent and all the rest of it. I just didn’t, I couldn’t fly. I mean in those days. I don’t think I’d even sat in car a dozen times in my life. You know.
GB: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: And I thought the pedals were there for pushing and all the rest of it.
GB: Yeah.
WM: And they, I never did go solo but I couldn’t land the thing you know to and so —
AB: What sort of planes.
WM: They said, ‘I’m sorry. Very much. I’m sorry.’
AB: You’re not the one.
WM: ‘You know, you’ll have to come off.’ You know. So.
AB: So what planes were you practising on in Canada?
WM: They were, they were Tiger Moths.
AB: Oh they were still Tiger Moths.
WM: And there was, they did have some Canadian ones as well.
AB: Oh right.
WM: But it was about the weather. I mean it got the wheels off and you landed on skis you know. There was that much snow about you know.
AB: Oh right. Oh right.
GB: Oh of course. Yeah.
AB: So it was very cold for you.
GB: Yeah.
WM: So anyway I, they said, ‘I’m sorry.’ Not me. There was quite a lot of us.
GB: Yeah.
WM: ‘And what would you like to do now?’ They gave you a choice of navigator or air bomber sort of thing
AB: Oh right.
WM: And I went for the air bomber thing. I don’t know why. And they then shipped me from Alberta right across to Ontario on the banks of the Lake Ontario.
GB: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: Where I then started my air bomber course and I went to a little island just in the lake and finished. Well no. Got half way through the course, then I went from there to the other side of the lake on the just seventy miles north of Niagara and finished there and on July the 23rd 1943 I qualified as a sergeant bomb aimer. Very proud of myself, you know.
AB: Well.
WM: And that was it. Yeah.
AB: And then you went back to England on the Queen Mary again.
WM: I came back. Well yes. I got to say that. We came back to Moncton which was a holding station and I eventually we got shipped by the Queen Mary but when I told you there was six hundred coming there was nineteen thousand going back on it.
GB: Golly.
WM: You see they were getting ready for you know obviously the build-up of the war.
GB:
WM: In the meantime America had come into it.
AB: Oh right.
WM: And it was full there so what we did you got a bunk for twenty four hours then you had to sleep where you could for the rest of the time while someone else had you, had your bunk.
AB: Oh right.
WM: Yes. So —
AB: Wow.
WM: But er —
AB: So you were with Canadians and Americans.
WM: There was Canadians. There was, there weren’t a great number of us air force people going back you know.
AB: Right
WM: Probably a couple of bus loads but the rest were Americans all going over
AB: Ah
WM: I can see it now. They used to queue up on one side of the boat and go right the way around queuing up to get some chocolate to bring home. Not a bar. We had a box you know.
GB: Gosh
WM: We could
AB: Oh right.
WM: A catering chappy I knew, he was with me, I hadn’t got enough money so he lent me five pounds so that I buy some more for my parents and things like that.
AB: Well five pounds was a lot of money in those days.
WM: Oh yes it was, you know but that was it. But anyway so we we got on like that. I always remember all these Americans they were all playing, what’s the big thing and I forget the name of the game that they were playing. Rolling dice and all the rest of it.
AB: Backgammon was it or something?
WM: No. They didn’t call it. I forget what it was. Anyway, they were there and they were all around. Some RAF officer was, permanent I should think you know, ‘Stop,’ he said, ‘I’m stopping you. I’m taking this.’ You know. And this American bloke pulled the thing, ‘I’m f-ing sure you’re not.’ You know and he ran off with it. They never did catch him because there were so many people there you know. So that was my adventures coming back but it was —
AB: Was the food good on the ship?
WM: Oh it was lovely yes.
AB: Good.
WM: Going out particularly you know the sort of bread was sort of off white thing we had in this country.
GB: Yes.
WM: Then we were back to food which was supplied from America.
GB: Oh gosh.
WM: Really we were eating very well indeed.
AB: It was better quality coming home than going out was it?
WM: Well it was more comfortable going out than coming back.
GB: Yes.
AB: Oh right. Yes.
WM: There was more than one place to eat you know.
AB: Yeah.
WM: And I know some people went there and had two plates. Two places to eat you know.
AB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: So that was it.
AB: So you got back then to Glasgow.
GB: Yes.
WM: Sorry?
AB: You got back to Glasgow then.
WM: No. No. We got back to Birkenhead actually.
AB: Oh Birkenhead ok.
GB: Birkenhead.
WM: Yes and that was it and I came home on leave and you know I was transferred and started my, the flying part of the air bombing more then anything else.
GB: So there was still more training to do when you got back.
WM: Oh yes. Yes.
GB: Gosh.
WM: I say I joined in 1942 and I was finished training at the beginning of 1944 really.
GB: Golly. Yes.
WM: I went to Glasgow for some flying. I did a bit of navigating as well.
GB: Yes.
WM: Then we used to go to southwest Scotland and we had to fly down to the Isle of Man or to Ireland you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: And do other exercises there.
GB: Yes. And what sort of planes were you flying in?
WM: We were flying in Ansons. Avro Ansons.
GB: Right.
WM: And then later on we got, when I got to Silverstone we were in Wellingtons.
GB: Right. Yes.
WM: And later on from that we changed. We went to Swinderby and in Stirlings.
GB: Yes.
WM: They were a bit of a dead loss. They’d got no height and they were no good for really for doing the job that they were built for so —
AB: Oh really.
WM: And then they transferred us from there to, from them to Lancasters.
GB: Lancasters.
WM: And then we had conversions there and then eventually we got swapped on to the —
AB: Was there much difference in the technique of bombing from different aeroplanes?
WM: Well it’s hard to say because I was, you know, there were only four pound bombs that we were practicing with. We didn’t use anything very big.
AB: Right.
WM: But the only difference was that I think well the Lancaster was that much faster than the Stirling you know.
AB: Right.
WM: It certainly fell into place quite easily. So that was it. I was going to say earlier on we had the crew. There’s a photograph of them at the back of the book there I think actually.
GB: Oh yes.
WM: Yeah. And they were the six of us and we got to the, we got to Swinderby and Doug, the flight engineer came in. This was obviously taken before but we got to the —
GB: Is that you there?
WM: No. That’s Smithy.
GB: Oh right.
WM: That’s me there.
GB: Oh right. Oh. The good looking one.
WM: That’s what my wife said this morning. And anyway we got our crew made up and the one there behind me.
GB: Yes.
WM: We don’t quite know what happened but he disappeared I think. Whether it was lack of moral fibre they called it. Whether it was illness or not I don’t know so —
GB: Gosh.
WM: But he did, he was very, he was a nervous sort of fellow. Nice man but —
GB: Yes.
WM: But —
GB: What was -?
WM: We were buckshee without a rear gunner.
GB: So this was the gang you got together in the hangar at Silverstone.
WM: It would be taken at Silverstone. Yes.
GB: Yes.
WM: Yes.
GB: And you all self-selected each other.
WM: Well yeah. I selected Smithy on the other side of the pilot.
GB: Yes.
WM: Then we walked along and the two in the middle Alec and the one behind him is Don.
GB: Yes.
WM: They came and then the other two lads were gunners. They were together and we picked them up as well.
GB: Right.
WM: Like I say we’d never seen any of them before.
GB: No. It’s amazing that.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And the guy who disappeared. What? Was he a gunner?
WM: He was a rear gunner.
GB: Rear gunner. I could tell by the size of him actually.
WM: Yeah but he —
GB: Goodness.
WM: Yeah.
GB: Was he a volunteer do you think?
WM: Oh they were all volunteers.
GB: They were all volunteers.
WM: They had to be.
GB: Yeah.
WM: He was an older man. He was married as well I think. You know you don’t know really what came of it but —
GB: No.
WM: It must have been the lack of moral fibre they called it because —
GB: Yes.
WM: We never saw him again. He just was there one day and gone the next.
AB: What would happen to him then?
WM: They stripped them down and sent them, put them down to aircrew 2. You know the lowest. Sweeping up and this sort of thing.
AB: So ground jobs basically.
WM: Oh yes. Yes.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: So that was poor old Smithy in that respect but I say he did us a good turn because on the squadron there was a Flight Officer Bate who’d got six trips still to do to complete a second tour and he came and flew with us and he was quite, very very helpful. He kept us. He knew what he was doing. He’d, I mean, he’d done something like fifty ops you see. And then when he finished they picked up another chap, Eldridge who lived quite near to Doug, the engineer who did know him at the time.
GB: Yes.
WM: He came along. He was on his second tour and it was quite helpful really.
AB: How long was a tour? Was it fifteen ops? Or thirty ops.
WM: Well thirty.
GB: Thirty.
AB: Thirty.
WM: It varied. I was told I would do thirty to start with.
AB: Right.
WM: But the war ran its course and they put it up from thirty to thirty five to do and then on the last day that I was doing my, last day. We were due to do our last op. We had to take the aircraft up for a test. An air test sort of the thing. And the skipper, Alec, said to us, ‘I’ve got a message for you. Now be quiet and listen.’ He said, ‘I’ve just been told to tell you that the cook tour has been cut from thirty five trips to thirty three trips so that means we’re finished.’ And we didn’t hear much more. We all went and put parachutes on just in case anything was going happen to him but so it went down from thirty five to thirty three having gone up from thirty to thirty five.
AB: Oh right.
WM: You see, I mean, before, before, I mean once D-day came it changed because it was all mainly all big cities and that sort of thing that were bombing. Towns.
AB: When did you go active?
WM: Sorry?
AB: When did you go active with your bombing?
WM: I’ll come to that in a second.
AB: Right. Ok. Sorry.
WM: And. No. It’s alright. And then the, it came to D-day up to that time they were bombing cities, engineering firms, and all the rest of it.
AB: Yes.
WM: And then after that they went on to supporting the ground who had invaded. The English the Americans to try and soften up the enemy and trying to ruin the German transport links and all the rest of it.
AB: The railways.
WM: Yes.
AB: And bridges.
WM: And that just caught us. We arrived at East Kirkby on the, on D-day minus one — June 4th so June 5th we went down there and everybody was full of the invasion and all the ships that they saw and we had quite a chat with them but it was another week before I actually they let us, let us go fly you see.
AB: Oh I see. A week after D-Day.
WM: A week. Yes. 11th or 12th
AB: So that was ’44.
WM: Yes.
AB: Yeah.
WM: So then I did a tour. Took me from there to October. I was looking the other day thinking about this. It was very very hectic really at the time. I worked it out. I just had a hundred days on the, in the squadron as such. Take off two weeks. Then I had leave. That’s only really basically there for eighty odd days and we got thirty four ops.
AB: So where were you based originally?
WM: Based at East Kirkby.
AB: East Kirkby. Ok.
WM: That’s about ten miles north of —
GB: So you emerged from the hangar in Silverstone as a team.
WM: Yes.
GB: And how did you become 630 Squadron? Part of it.
WM: Oh well they posted us to 630 Squadron.
GB: Right.
WM: Yeah. And they were I’m sure there were people from 630 Squadron.
GB: 630 yes.
WM: Went with them. We went with them and we don’t know where we picked them up from you know. Of course that was, there was a constant loss of course.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes.
WM: Just get a crew and they’d say well you’d better replace that one you see.
GB: So you went to 630 Squadron at East Kirkby which was quite close to Coningsby I think.
WM: Yes it was. Yes.
GB: Yeah. And started active service there. And where were you staying when you were there?
WM: Staying?
GB: Yes.
WM: Well East Kirkby was a wartime aerodrome and it was, it was not like the Scamptons or anything — there were lovely buildings and all the rest of it.
GB: No. Yes.
WM: And we had quite a lot of tin huts and things like that and we were actually, we were, the non-commissioned people were in Nissen huts.
GB: Right.
WM: And we were a good twenty minutes walk from there to the airfield and a quarter of an hour to the mess. The mess. So we, you know we had plenty to do to walk.
GB: You got plenty of exercise.
WM: So we used to go for meals and we’d pop in to the mess you know after from there but we didn’t make, well it was too busy really.
GB: Yeah.
WM: To get in there and I did, while I was there I did twenty four air operations at night and ten at daylight so it was, it was a lot more hectic really.
AB: What would, what would the gap be.
GB: Yes.
AB: You wouldn’t get a daytime raid and then a night time raid directly.
WM: Not exactly but I was looking at the times on some of those, you know. It was certainly within twenty four hours that we sometimes went up again you know but —
GB: Gosh yes I can see.
AB: Do you remember your first trip out?
WM: Yes. It was a bit of a laugh. It was to Caen. The British or Americans, someone, were in battle with the Germans and they wanted us to go over there with our bombs and drop them on the German side to make the progress better.
AB: Is this Caen? C A E N.
WM: That’s right.
AB: In France. Yes. Caen. Yes.
WM: In Normandy.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes. Normandy. Yes.
WM: Anyway, we got there and getting ready and message, ‘Stop bombing. Stop bombing.’ ‘No bombing’ and ‘return to base,’ sort of thing and it turned out that our people had broken through and there was the case that if we had bombed we would probably have bombed them as well.
AB: Oh right. Of course. Yes.
GB: Of course.
WM: Anyway, they stopped it and we went back to East Kirkby or wherever we were going and the [pause] we the person that was speaking to us said, ‘Have you got a bombload? So, ‘Yes we’d got a full bomb load.’ ‘Well you go out to the North Sea and you drop. You’ve got to drop it so you’ve got a safe all up landing weight,’ you see.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: Well I didn’t hear that but someone told me and anyway we went out there and opened the bomb doors and dropped the lot you see.
AB: Right. Yes.
WM: There was, I can remember seeing them now, they were sort of not primed to go off but some of them still went off, you know.
GB: Golly.
WM: When they hit the bottom.
GB: Yes.
WM: Anyway, the next day they wanted to see me and the pilot in the bombing room, you know. ‘What do you mean by dropping all those bombs at sea? You were only supposed to drop about six of them,’ you know to get all in the weight. I said I didn’t know anything about this.
GB: No.
WM: No. So anyway, ‘Well just don’t let it happen again,’ you know, sort of thing. I dropped, instead of, I think we had about ten or eleven bombs on board.
AB: And you should only have dropped four.
WM: I should have dropped half of them.
AB: You dropped half of them.
WM: And brought the rest of them back. Yeah.
AB: So do you prime the bombs before, before you drop them normally, in action?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Do you have to prime the bombs or are they already primed?
WM: Yes. Yeah. You primed. You’ve got a switch there sort of a thing. A switch.
AB: A switch. Was that your job as a bomb aimer?
WM: A part of it yes. I had to prime them.
AB: Right.
WM: And then when I dropped the bombs, when I dropped the bombs, you know, it released them one at a time.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: But quite often what happened was a sweep thing on the instrument and that’s plugged over each one and it knocked them off, you know. They didn’t always come off and you had to look through the best you could to see if there was anything lying on but —
AB: And if they were left you had to give them a push did you or what?
WM: No [laughs] but anyway when I, when I did that you know right that was it. They shut the bomb doors again and we were not allowed to open them again till they landed. The people who serviced the aircraft could do that but we weren’t allowed to do that.
AB: Why? What was the reason for that?
WM: Well in case it bumped. When you bumped your landing it did, you know, the hook that was holding it up would probably come loose or something.
AB: Oh I see. So you’re talking about a bomb left in the plane.
WM: It could have dropped on to the floor of the door.
AB: Yes.
WM: And just hit. If it hit the ground you know, in that condition it was quite likely to —
AB: Go off. Oh right. Ok.
GB: So at last you’re in Lancasters. You’re in East Kirkby and you’ve started your work and started your tour.
WM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
GB: And did the crew socialise together at all or-?
WM: We get on very very well together if we go out together.
GB: Yes.
WM: But we’d got three people who were officers there.
GB: Yes.
WM: They went into the officer’s mess so we didn’t really.
GB: Of course.
WM: We, the other, three or four of us, we stayed in the, we were in the same Nissen hut.
GB: Hut.
WM: Together.
GB: Right.
WM: And we played cards together and had a laugh.
GB: Yes.
WM: And all the rest of it but as I say we were glad to sleep to be truthful. You know after eight, nine, ten hours flying probably and you get a bit weary doing that you see.
AB: Was it cold in the aeroplane? In the Lancaster.
WM: No. We had not too bad. The, it was summertime anyway.
AB: Right.
WM: I never, I never felt really cold in there but the worst one of course was the rear gunner.
GB: Yes.
WM: They had Perspex in front of them. Some of them, it used to steam up so they had it cut or broken away and they were sitting there with their kit on and the wind, the cold was getting in.
AB: Getting cold. Right.
WM: It was terrible. A terrible job really.
AB: What height were you flying at? Fifteen thousand feet or —
WM: We were normally up to eighteen, nineteen.
AB: Oh right.
WM: One of the trips we did we were told to, we could up as high as we could. Went to Brunswick and we got to nearly twenty three thousand but it wouldn’t go any higher than that, you know.
AB: Oh the plane physically wouldn’t go higher.
WM: No. Apparently not. No.
AB: Did you have breathing apparatus?
WM: Oh yes. Oxygen. Yes.
AB: Oxygen. Yes.
WM: If you flew at night with the oxygen on when you got in the aircraft and when you daylight you, if you got to ten or eleven thousand feet the skipper told you to put your oxygen on.
AB: Oh right.
WM: So that was it really.
GB: And your operations took you all over the place.
WM: Yes. Yes.
GB: [Kiel?] Stuttgart. Caen. Lots in France.
WM: Yes. We, we never did go to Berlin or anything like that, you know.
GB: Oh right because —
WM: That more or less finished before I got on there.
GB: Oh. It had because it says on the history.
WM: Yes.
GB: Of 630 Squadron that there was a big responsibility for bombing Berlin.
WM: Yes. Yes.
GB: And also laying mines in Norway.
WM: Yes. We laid, we laid mines up in Heligoland once. It was the most boring flight we had flying over the North Sea.
GB: Sea. Yes.
AB: You went on and on.
WM: Dropping bombs. Putting the mines down and came back again.
AB: So a mine was just like a bomb was it? You dropped it and it floated when it hit the water.
WM: That type of thing yes.
AB: Yes. Yes. And these were the old fashioned mines with spikes sticking out.
WM: Oh no. No. Not that. Well I didn’t see them but they weren’t those sort. They came off the boats. These sort of floated but we didn’t see any. Well they couldn’t have put them on because they couldn’t have stuck in the aircraft you know.
AB: So they were cylinders basically that floated were they? Or —
WM: Yes.
AB: Oh I see.
WM: Some of them.
GB: And did you have to aim the mines when you dropped them or -?
WM: Well no. They gave you an area to drop them in.
GB: No. An area. Yeah.
WM: Because there was nothing to line your thing up.
GB: No. No. Did you have any near misses or —
WM: Yes. We had one or two really. We went to a place called Revigny.
GB: Oh yes.
WM: I think it’s in Northern France. I’m not sure.
GB: Northern France. Yes.
WM: And that was one. And another one, our fourth one was West Wesseling which was near, just below [pause] I forget the name.
AB: Sounds Holland. Sounds Netherlands.
GB: Yes.
AB: Was it the Netherlands?
WM: No. West Wesseling. Where the cathedral, the two, I can’t think of the name of the blessed place.
AB: In France or where?
WM: In Germany.
AB: In Germany. Oh right.
WM: Yes. On the Rhine it was.
AB: Oh right.
GB: The Revigny one. It says you were, you had light flak and fighters all along the route.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And it was poorly marked.
WM: Yes.
GB: And then you were damaged by flak on your return.
WM: Yes. Was that Revigny?
GB: Yes.
WM: Yes. Well that was something I sort of found out after the war. At the time the Germans started these fighters with upward firing guns. We knew nothing about them at the time but we were coming back this particular night and suddenly a terrific sort of bang and all the rest of it and the aircraft went into a dive.
GB: Gosh.
WM: And the skipper, you know the fateful words, ‘Get ready,’ we were supposed to bale out. Get ready you see. Well where I was lying you had a sort of double cushion. You pulled it up and the exit was below that. I had to pull that.
AB: Oh right.
WM: Well I got there ready to do that to where my station was and I all there ready to go and then he said, ‘Its ok. I’ve got control again,’ and he pulled it up. Doug, the engineer, helped him but he always told them he was halfway out the aircraft and I was pulling him back holding his bottom. Which we didn’t, you know. I mean I never opened the doors but that’s his tale and he liked it but —
AB: Do you keep your parachute next door to you all the time when you were flying or do you wear it or what?
WM: No. It’s in a sort of like a cushion more or less and you just stuck it up, got the hooks behind you. You picked it up and put them on.
AB: And just hooked it on. It was what a half a minute’s job was it or -?
WM: Well it would do if you put it one right way up. Yes. Yes. It’s quite, it clipped on quite easily really.
AB: Clipped on. Oh right.
WM: Anyway I’d got that on.
GB: Yes.
WM: Obviously waiting to go. Doug, he did say to me the other week that the Lancaster would start falling apart if you got to four hundred miles an hour and he said our aircraft was near on that.
AB: Gosh.
WM: But he, well someone, two of them pulled the thing back. Got it under control and we got back quite safely but you know if, I think, it hadn’t have been for Alec I think any of us might have stuck to getting out you know and all the risks you took then but I’m quite sure that Alec saved our lives that night.
GB: Yes. Sounds —
AB: Did you find out what caused the aircraft to drop afterwards?
WM: Well yeah. It was an upward firing gun you see.
AB: Yes.
WM: And it caught one of the wings. He didn’t get the petrol tanks that were in the —
AB: No.
WM: It just knocked the balance completely. Yes.
AB: The aileron. The aileron. I see ok.
WM: But that was that. Yes.
GB: Well it says here that you’d been, you thought it was flak that had hit your plane.
WM: Well yes that was earlier on. You know and —
GB: Yes but it may have been a night fighter.
WM: Yes.
GB: Who may have hit you from underneath?
WM: Yes. No. You know as I say we didn’t know anything about.
GB: No.
WM: Upward firing guns or anything like that. As it happened when we did dive it went, we went into cloud so the bloke couldn’t have followed us up.
AB: Couldn’t see you.
WM: He couldn’t see us so.
GB: And you had to go out flying again the following night.
WM: Yes. I see that. I saw that today. Yes. Oh they’re kind to you [laughs]
AB: A different plane obviously.
WM: Oh yes it would have to be. The wingtip put back on and things.
AB: Would the plane be taken away?
WM: Yes.
AB: Or would someone come in to repair it?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Would the plane be taken away or would somebody come in to repair it?
WM: Oh do it there. And it wasn’t bad enough for that you know. They did take some away to do but —
AB: Gosh.
WM: But that was — we lost four aircraft from our squadron that night and Wesseling, Wesseling, which was, what was the name? Cologne, just below Cologne. That’s right.
AB: Yes.
WM: And we were get there as well and that was a real bit of good luck to us. It was our fourth trip and the navigator, we think it was the navigator, made a mistake with his graphs and all the rest of it.
AB: With his bearings. Yeah.
WM: And we flew along and Geoff our tail gunner he used to, ‘Skip. One going down on the port bow.’ You know. So Alec said, ‘Ok. Thank you.’ Bit later, ‘Skip there’s another one going down,’ you know. This sort of thing. So it got just to the bit so Alec said, ‘Oh just make a note of it,’ you know. He didn’t believe him at all. Anyway, we got quite near to the target and, quite near to the target and he said right you’ve got to turn north east now and he called me and told me we will be at the target in seven minutes. It was twenty odd minutes before we got up there. He’d gone farther around and we had a clear run all the way around there to there and never saw — only saw these in the distance. When we got to Wesseling we were the only ones left there. There were no aircraft so we turned around and came back the same way.
AB: You dropped your —
WM: When we got back to East Kirkby they had to put the lights on again to put us, get us in, you know.
AB: But you dropped your bomb load in.
WM: Oh yeah. We dropped our load.
AB: But you were late were you? You were later than the rest of your squadron.
WM: Oh we were later than the rest of them. Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: We had a, well we had a four thousand pounder in that night so we didn’t want to bring that back you know.
GB: No.
AB: No. No. And how accurate was your bomb aiming?
WM: Well they, when you took your, dropped your bombs it also released a camera.
AB: Oh right.
GB: Oh really.
WM: Not a camera, a photo.
AB: Yeah. A camera. Yes.
WM: But we and then they put them on the, published them on the map the next day to show. We got two or three what we called aiming points.
AB: Yeah.
WM: And some not so far. Some obviously a long way out because not only that the aircraft’s got to stay straight and level.
AB: Yeah.
GB: Yeah.
WM: If you missed you were over there somewhere but —
AB: But did you know what you hit because —
WM: No. No.
AB: The time between releasing the bomb and actually going off it could be a minute or two couldn’t it?
WM: Yes but it went more or less the same speed forwards as you were going.
AB: Oh of course forward. Yes. Yes.
WM: But the wireless operator Don Tong, he lived in Winchester he did. He’s died now but he went back to Kirkby afterwards and worked in the, this part of the workshop. Whatever. And he got quite a lot of these photos and he’s gone and died on us and I suppose his Mrs has got them or given them to one of the kids you know, sort of thing.
GB: Oh right.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: I saw them but I didn’t see many of them you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: So that’s how they kept their eye on you.
AB: Could you see other aircraft from where you were sitting as a bomb aimer? Or lying.
WM: No. The most, a bit reassuring at times you were flying along and the aircraft starts going up or down and you’re in the windstream of the, of an aircraft in front of you somewhere so you knew there was someone there.
AB: Right.
WM: We had the unfortunate experience of seeing bombs drop on one of our own aircraft because that sort of lit up sort of thing.
AB: Oh gosh.
GB: Gosh.
AB: So one plane was above the other.
WM: Yes.
AB: And released the bombs onto it.
WM: Yes. And then what happens, it’s not like the Americans. They were all in formation. They tell you you’ve got to fly at eighteen thousand feet and at eighteen thousand feet that the pilot had to set a little instrument on his altimeter.
AB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: But your opinion of eighteen thousand feet might be different from mine from eighteen thousand five hundred.
AB: Right. Yes.
WM: So what they tell you all to fly at eighteen thousand. You notice this more on daylight than anything.
AB: Oh. There was a big variation in height.
GB: Yes.
WM: Depth. So if you are above there is a danger of being bombed.
AB: My goodness.
WM: And we did have a very sad one in September er in August. We went to a Dutch airfield, Deelan. And as we were flying along in the daylight you could see everybody then easily and we saw this aircraft. It could have been a hundred yards or so away from us and a bomb had hit that and knocked the wing off it and —
GB: Gosh.
WM: It crashed obviously.
AB: God.
WM: And it turned out, in fact, the pilot, he was in Holland he was a Dutch.
AB: Dutch pilot was he?
WM: Dutch pilot and he would have been, well it was his last trip but it would have been the last trip of his tour.
GB: Yes.
WM: If he did but he didn’t. It just killed him.
AB: They didn’t have time to bale out.
GB: Gosh. I can see that.
WM: Oh no. You wouldn’t have.
GB: No.
AB: No.
GB: 15th August. Deelan.
WM: Yeah. That’s right.
WM: Yes.
GB: Yes. Are you feeling ok? Do you need a drink of water?
WM: Oh no. I’m alright. Thank you. No. No.
GB: So active service at East Kirkby continued and you were reaching the end of your tour.
WM: Yes.
GB: And then what? What happened after your tour?
WM: Oh well. I always feel a little bit guilty about this. We, we finished on the 5th of October and they wanted to get rid of us.
AB: Was this ’45.
WM: ’44.
GB: ’44.
WM: ‘44 right. Yeah. Yeah.
WM: And they wanted to, they moved you on because they wanted to bring people in.
GB: Yes.
WM: And anyway they took us to the railway station at Boston I suppose and we got off at Peterborough. We were all sitting there chatting. ‘Well I’m off now,’ you know. ‘What’s your telephone number?’ ‘What’s your address?’ You know. And all things like that and we just walked out of each other’s lives you know. We did, we did have addresses for Christmas cards and things like that but —
AB: But why did you finish in ‘44 because the war didn’t finish until ‘45.
WM: Oh well yes that’s another story but anyway I, we got ready as I say — to get back to this we got off at Peterborough and we, I came through to Kettering and the others went off to where they lived. Two lived in Kent, one lived in Winchester. Jock came from Scotland and I think Geoff came from Birmingham, you know. It was all, all different so we that was it and to be truthful I mean I got married a year later and you know you put this to one side and it was only what twenty, thirty years afterwards when they started having reunions that we got back into it you know.
AB: Back together.
GB: You met again.
WM: It’s became a massive part of my life really talking and being.
GB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: But, so that was it.
GB: So the whole crew did meet up again with the reunions.
WM: Well I said earlier that only two of us are alive. Two of us as far as we know.
GB: Yes.
WM: We, Smithy, the what do you call it, he trained in South Africa and we’ve got an idea that he picked up a girl out there and went back to her after the war ‘cause we heard nothing more about him. Jock, behind him — very, very sad. He married and he went to immigrate to New Zealand. His wife got an incurable illness and it was too much for him and he did himself in.
GB: Oh goodness.
WM: Yeah.
AB: So just going back to my earlier question why did you finish in ‘44 when the war finished in ’45?
WM: Well I finished my first tour.
GB: Yeah. You’re not expected to fly.
WM: Flying then. After that they sent me to train to be an instructor and all the rest.
AB: Oh you were taken off active service basically.
WM: Yes.
GB: Yes.
AB: Oh I see.
WM: And after so many months they wanted me to. Well they didn’t. They crewed us up. I was at, over in North Luffenham at the time.
AB: Oh yes.
WM: Flying with them. They crewed us up and we then went through a course of flying and we were going out to the Far East and we finished the course there and they sent us home on leave and they’d say, you know, when we’d got to go and the last day of the leave VJ day came along. They’d bombed Japan into submission.
GB: Yes.
WM: And you report back to North Luffenham. Well I hadn’t got a car or anything so I see it’s VJ day and I didn’t go. I stayed at home. Went the next day.
AB: So, yeah —
WM: When I got there the others had gone. They’d all been transferred to somewhere else.
AB: So did you actually go to the Far East yourself?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Did you actually transfer to the Far East yourself?
WM: No. I didn’t volunteer. No. No.
AB: You didn’t. Sorry.
WM: And so you know with the war ending they just cancelled all that.
AB: Yes.
WM: I had to go to a special place near Harrogate or somewhere and they said, ‘You’ve got to finish flying now. You’ll keep your rank but what do you want to do?’ Gave you a great list. And I didn’t know. I said, ‘Oh well,’ and looked — Post Office. I got to work in a Post Office sort of thing so they did and, ‘Where would you like to be posted to?’ And I put Silverstone or Desborough or something like and anyway they did but then two months later I was on my way to India [laughs] to Bombay and Calcutta where I had eight, ten months before they demobbed me in 1946.
AB: And how did you get to Bombay?
WM: By boat.
AB: By boat. By ship.
WM: Naval boat. It was Devonshire. A destroyer.
AB: Oh really. A destroyer.
WM: So we went on that. They were doing a bit of trooping.
AB: Oh right.
WM: So I had to go.
AB: How long did that trip take? Two or three weeks.
WM: 15th to the 30th of December.
AB: Oh two weeks.
WM: We got there. No. 31st. We got there on New Year’s Eve.
AB: Right. And you went down through Suez Canal?
WM: Yes we did. We were the first ones after the war finished to go down there. Yes that was quite an experience.
AB: Wow.
GB: Wow.
AB: Gosh. And you were training people in Calcutta and Bombay were you?
WM: No. I was, had a great time really. The mail used to come in and I’d got about three or two Indians. They were having to sorting them out. ‘Where is this place?’ You know.
AB: Oh this is part of the Post Office. Yes. You —
GB: Oh I see.
AB: This was the forces post you were looking after.
WM: Forces post. Yes.
AB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: And you know if the people had been demobbed they went in to, the letters went and they had to come back this way.
GB: Well that was quite a long way from Desborough then wasn’t it [laughs]
WM: Yeah. It was. Yes [laughs]
AB: Did you meet any nice girls in India?
WM: Did I?
AB: Did you meet any nice girls? Any nice ladies.
WM: No. No. Didn’t. No I didn’t. [laughs] No.
AB: Right.
WM: I didn’t want to go there.
GB: No.
WM: But having been there I’m glad I’ve been. It was quite a —
GB: Yes. Incredible.
WM: We had a great time there. Fun. We used to go to the Post Office building and then go from there to an American mess actually for eating and we used to get these blokes with their — what do you call it? Where you sat in them.
GB: Yes.
AB: Rickshaws or whatever.
GB: Rickshaws.
WM: Rickshaws. Yeah.
AB: Yes.
WM: And then we would have a race to see who would get there first you know and all the rest of it.
AB: And did you get on with Indian food alright?
WM: Any?
AB: Did you get on with Indian food? Curries and things.
WM: I like curry but as I say we were eating in an American mess.
AB: Ah. So it was all American food. Yes.
WM: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: So that was, at the end of the time it was a nice way to finish. But as Pauline was saying earlier to you we came back to Liverpool and from Liverpool to Preston where they demobbed us.
GB: Yes.
WM: You went in one door and came out twenty minutes later with a bag with your clothes in and that was it. Nobody said thank you very much or —
GB: Thank you.
AB: They issued you with a standard suit and standard shirt and —
WM: Yeah. ‘What size are you?’ You know and then they threw them at you and you came with a hat on and all the rest of it.
AB: Oh. Good grief.
WM: And it was just as well ‘cause they were the only suits I’d got at the time. You know. I’d been married. I was married before we went to India.
GB: Gosh.
WM: So you know that was one of the reasons I didn’t want to go.
GB: Yes. Yes.
WM: The only other thing I didn’t like about that that we were going on the Devonshire and I was a warrant officer by this time and in the mess there and Sunday morning it was and we just either coming out or going in the Bay of Biscay and I was really feeling seasick and then the radio came on. Tonight’s, ‘Today’s church service is from Fuller Chapel in Kettering,’ And that’s where I was married three weeks, a month before.
GB: Oh no.
AB: Gosh.
WM: I wasn’t very pleased about that. No.
GB: No. I can imagine.
WM: Yes. So that was it.
GB: So really leaving the air force was a bit of an anti-climax.
WM: Yes.
GB: Compared to what you’d been through. What did some of the others go on to do after the end of the active service?
WM: Well the flight engineer was Smithy. It was [pause] I’ll get his name in a minute. He went to, he’s not on there.
GB: No.
WM: He went back to Kirkby and he was a training flight engineer. He was telling them what to do he was. Doug that was.
GB: Yes.
WM: Telling them what to do. So he went back to East Kirkby as well.
GB: Yes.
WM: Alec became a pilot at, near to Brackley.
AB: Silverstone.
WM: Hmmn?
AB: Silverstone.
WM: No. Between Silverstone. Near to.
AB: Hinton in the Hedges was it? Or something like that?
WM: Something like that.
AB: Yeah.
WM: Anyway he was there. We didn’t know that. I mean he was only twenty, thirty miles away from us.
GB: Gosh yes.
WM: But as I say we don’t know what happened to him. [unclear] So that was it.
GB: Which was the one that went to New Zealand.
WM: This one.
GB: Oh right.
WM: Yes. So —
GB: And —
WM: That was it. I say then it was nearly thirty years later we met up at Boston.
GB: Yes.
WM: For a meal with their wives and things.
GB: Did you meet your skip there?
WM: The skipper was there. Yes. Yeah.
GB: What was he doing by then?
WM: Well as I say he went near to [pause]
GB: Brackley.
WM: Near to Brackley.
GB: Yeah.
WM: To train. Whether he got an early release I don’t know because his father had a business. Whether they got him out of it I don’t know.
GB: So he didn’t continue as a pilot.
WM: Sorry?
GB: He didn’t continue as a pilot in civilian life.
WM: Oh no. No. No. After the war we went somewhere where there was a Lancaster and he said you know I must have been a bloody fool to fly a thing that, you know. [laughs]
AB: Have you ever been back to see an old Lancaster. Have you been to —?
WM: I’ve been to East Kirkby.
AB: East Kirkby. You’ve been there.
WM: That’s right. Yes.
AB: Does that bring back memories?
WM: Oh it does indeed.
AB: Yeah.
WM: We went once when they had the engines running, you know, running it up and down the -
AB: Oh the runway.
WM: And the men, you know, well they were older than me at the time and there were tears in their eyes as they saw the aircraft go by.
AB: Gosh.
WM: Amazing.
GB: Were you ever frightened?
WM: You know I’d a thought you would probably ask that.
GB: Yeah.
WM: I think at that age I was I wasn’t frightened. I was a bit apprehensive I suppose but I never thought about not getting back sort of thing but when I saw this I told you about this aircraft getting bombed.
GB: Yes.
WM: That did make me frightened because —
GB: Yes.
WM: When you saw one of the aircraft above you were getting, coming up from underneath.
GB: Yes.
WM: Suddenly coming down it did worry me a bit because I was sufficiently near the end of my tour and it was —
GB: Yeah. Your tour, your tour was a very active one wasn’t it? In that you were up every day
WM: Oh yes.
GB: Or every other day.
WM: Yes.
GB: You didn’t have time to be worried really. You were so busy.
WM: I think you know I did, in about eighty, eighty odd days you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: And got them all done, you know, and it was —
AB: Did you leave a letter behind every time you went off saying with your wishes if you didn’t return?
WM: No. I didn’t truthfully. No. No.
AB: Oh really? I thought that was encouraged. Oh right.
WM: A lot of people did you know but no we weren’t advised to do it. The only thing that annoyed me they told us not to keep a diary. Now I wish I had have done.
GB: Yes.
WM: Because a lot of people have made a lot of money writing about what happened.
GB: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
WM: Yeah. It was very —
GB: And so you came back to civilian life and resumed with your same company.
WM: Oh I did. I did. Yes. Indeed. I wrote an eight page thing about what I did.
GB: Yes.
WM: In my [pause] get my glasses on.
GB: There’s some here but they’re [unclear].
WM: No. I don’t. Anyway what I was going to say was that I went back to Stewart’s and Lloyds and I was on about three pounds fifteen shillings a week. I think that’s what I was you know and after —
AB: Did you go back to your old job as administration?
WM: They moved me on a little bit to three pounds fifteen. I was twenty four nearly and I got a wife and a child on the way then.
AB: Right.
WM: And I I got the pay so I went in to see the manager who was a bit of an idiot anyway and I said about that. He said, ‘Well let me see,’ he said, ‘Well,’ l he said, ‘You’re classed as a junior.’ And I’d been in charge of a blooming aircraft when I was flying over a target you know but I’m still a junior. But he said until you’re twenty five. But he said let me see [?] in three weeks’ time. He said, ‘You’ll get a good rise then.’ The next payday I got six shillings extra, you know.
AB: Yeah.
WM: So that was, I put that just as a tailpiece on my story.
AB: Wow.
WM: But that was it. It just makes you wonder. I remember when we were working there we walked out of the office once and one of the seniors, a man in to his fifties or early sixties, his payslip fell on the floor and being like we did they picked it up. Forty eight pounds a month he was getting you know. So it just showed how things have changed. Yeah.
GB: Changed. Absolutely.
WM: No I was going to say in the Nissen hut there were four of us and three of four of another crew there and at the far end from the door there was a chappy, an older chappy. He seemed to be in bed more than anything so he said — we were having a laugh and a giggle, ‘Can’t you people want to sleep?’ This sort of thing you know. Miserable so and so we called him. Anyway, I came home on leave and I saw in the paper that his name was Robert [Dodd?] and it said he was killed in a raid and he was this bloke. He went to the same school as me but he was ten years older than me.
GB: Oh goodness.
WM: So I never really got talking to him. He was —
GB: No.
WM: At twenty nine they were old in those days, you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: So it’s just amazing how these things —
GB: Yes.
WM: And when I was in Canada, in Alberta I saw the name of a pilot trainer. His name was Hart and his father had a printing factory in Kettering. It’s funny how you run into these people isn’t it.
GB: Goodness. Yes. Well it was a big part of your life and you got to go on the Queen Mary.
WM: Oh yes.
GB: See Canada.
WM: Yes. Oh yes. I wouldn’t have had that opportunity.
GB: I know. And then see Lincolnshire. A lot of Lincolnshire.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And then suddenly it was all over and finished.
WM: Oh yes. I was very, it took me a long while to settle down. Truthfully.
GB: Oh I can imagine. Yes.
WM: I got something in there about my — all the places I went.
GB: Yes.
WM: In nearly five, four and a half years or so I went to forty different stations so you know you never got settled down.
GB: No.
WM: And then to suddenly to get back, you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: Doing the same thing day after day.
GB: Yes.
WM: Was a bit of a problem. Yeah.
GB: It must have been.
AB: You got one or two entries in your logbook here. Formation flying. Was that practicing?
WM: It would be, yes. Yes.
AB: And you just what? Take off over the North Sea or something would you?
WM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
AB: And you’ve been to Caen. Instructed not to bomb.
GB: Yes.
AB: [Ou Nessier?] Oudon.
WM: Yeah.
AB: Little flak. Well marked.
WM: Yeah
AB: You went to [Bouvier?]. Bombed through the cloud. Little light flak. Wesseling. Heavy and light flak.
WM: Yeah.
AB: Spotlights ineffective. Bombed through cloud. That’s why they were ineffective I should imagine weren’t they? Then —
WM: Of course we had this thing — H2s which was underneath the body of the aircraft. There was a sort of thing that shape.
GB: Right.
WM: And that was, it gave a picture of what was on the ground or supposed to and I had to go and help the, sit with the navigator and I could hardly make head nor tail of it and he was bad. We were supposed to bomb when we could see the outline what we wanted to bomb but it didn’t come off really.
AB: So the H2S was an identification system.
WM: That was H2S. Yes.
AB: Because H2S is a gas isn’t it but that’s nothing to do with the gas. This was an identification system.
WM: Yes it was. Yes. Yes.
AB: Oh I see. Gosh. Did you have much trouble with fighters? Fighters attacking you?
WM: Any?
AB: Any problems with fighters.
WM: No. No.
AB: Messerschmitt’s attacking you?
WM: I thought about this. I don’t recollect either the flight er the two rear gunners or myself firing the guns in anger.
GB: Oh really.
WM: At all. Not the whole time. No.
AB: Good gracious.
WM: We went to Bremerhaven. One of my last trips and I said, ‘Skip there’s an aircraft above,’ you know and my job — I had the front guns you see.
AB: You had the front guns.
WM: Yes. If it had to I only had to get up there in case of emergency and I got up and got the guns trained up and Jock the mid-upper gunner said, ‘Ay stop. It’s a Lancaster.’ [laughs]
AB: But here you’ve got, you’ve got one of your operations — Pommereval. Target well marked. Fighters. No flak. So does that mean you encountered Messerschmitts or what?
WM: No. It wouldn’t have been Messerschmitt. I don’t, we didn’t have seen anything near at hand like that I don’t think.
AB: It just says, “Fighters. No flak.” So it would be enemy fighters presumably.
WM: Oh yes. Indeed. Sorry. Yes. It would be. Yes.
AB: But they didn’t cause you any trouble.
WM: Well luckily no. No. No. We had more trouble with flak coming up from the ground.
AB: Yes.
WM: Rather than —
AB: Than fighters
GB: I think. Yeah. I think the Messerschmitt had been pretty much knocked out by 1944 hadn’t they?
AB: Ah yes.
GB: The night fighter weren’t. So the 630 Squadron is Death By Night.
WM: Yes.
GB: And you were mostly a night bombing outfit.
WM: Yes.
GB: But then it was after the war the squadron finished and —
WM: Yes it went.
GB: Yes.
WM: They did it a bit I think with the American Air Force. Enlarged the runway a bit.
GB: Yes.
WM: But I didn’t see. Yeah. Actually we, you know, we were only 1943- 45 the aerodrome was in use.
GB: Yes.
WM: But the bomb, apparently the bombing record was very good you know. The number of bombs we dropped and all the rest of it.
AB: Did you get any subsequent recognition? Any sort of service medals and things like that?
WM: We don’t talk about that. No. Just got the France and German medal. If we’d started a month earlier we would have got Aircrew Europe medal.
AB: Right.
WM: But once the, you got back to the invasion, we got the France and German one. And we, well we think that Winston Churchill played dirty with the Bomber Command.
GB: Yes.
WM: In that, following the raid over Dresden, he denied all knowledge of this sort of thing yet apparently, you read that he gave Butch Harris the ok to do this and apparently the Russians had asked them to bomb Dresden as well and just to keep in with what the politicians doing he denied all and on the speech he made on VE day, I think it was, he ignored Bomber Command altogether. And about three years ago the pressure was put on Cameron to do something and I eventually got a little bit of tin to put on the bottom of my medals to say that I was in, you know, flying.
AB: Oh gosh. Right.
WM: That’s a bit of sore point you know.
GB: It is. Yes. Very much so.
WM: I mean when you think of the, I mean every other person was going to get killed according to what you read about it later.
GB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: Fifty five thousand.
GB: Yes.
WM: Of them against a hundred and twenty thousand. What do you call it?
GB: Including your younger brother.
WM: Oh indeed. Yes. We don’t know what happened there you see.
AB: And he was flying Lancasters as a pilot. Was he a pilot? Your brother.
WM: No. He was a flight engineer.
AB: Flight engineer.
WM: He was only nineteen you know. But I think —
AB: Yeah. And you said he was returning and crashed at Bridlington.
WM: Sorry?
AB: He crashed at Bridlington.
WM: Yes. Near to Bridlington. They were coming in to land and it landed. So that was it you know.
AB: And a Lancaster again was it?
WM: Oh it was a Lancaster. Yes.
AB: And had he been on duty that night.
WM: He’d been to Dusseldorf and he was just returning.
AB: He’d been coming back from Dusseldorf.
WM: Yes.
AB: Right. Ok.
WM: I think it was about his eighth raid that he did.
GB: Gosh.
WM: So —
AB: Well.
WM: So of course you see we wouldn’t tell. He told me that he was flying but he said, ‘Don’t say anything to mum,’ ‘cause you know she’d had an anxious time while I was doing it.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes.
WM: And a month later, or two months later he was, he was killed and it was a bigger shock then ever you know. And for my dad particularly. He never got over it. No. That’s the way it goes.
GB: You were a very lucky crew.
WM: Oh indeed. Yes. I can’t speak highly enough of them you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: On the ground we were all closely knit. We were very very friendly. Alec, he was the leader on the ground as well, you know.
GB: Exactly.
WM: He, in the air he was a different, you needn’t say, ‘Smithy, can you tell me what route to take?’ ‘Can you do this Jock,’ you know. If you spoke to him you, flight engineer. Mid upper gunner. You know you had to speak to him like that and do it.
AB: Yeah.
WM: All discipline and things like that.
GB: Yeah.
WM: That’s how it goes.
GB: But obviously it had meant a lot to Alec as well in that when he did die finally he left you all —
WM: Two hundred pounds each. Yes.
GB: Two hundred pounds each.
WM: Yeah. Yes. What it was again [laughs] He was a lovely chap really. He died of cancer, you know.
GB: Oh. No
WM: And that was it. His daughter was a, wrote in the Daily Express and Daily Telegraph and things like that.
GB: Oh really.
WM: She came up here once in the other room with a photographer and took no end of photos of me and we chatted away about it but then something else happened and it got wiped and it never did get into the paper but —
GB: Well anything else you’d like to add? It doesn’t matter if you remember other things
WM: No. No.
GB: You can email them to me.
WM: No. I don’t think so. You know, it was, well it’s hard to say. I mean you know what the end result when you’re dropping bombs on people but it was an experience that has stuck with me.
GB: Absolutely.
WM: Up to now.
GB: Yes.
WM: All the time, you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: And obviously I think it altered my life as well quite a bit you know.
GB: Yes. But you came back eventually to the same girl and the same company.
WM: Oh indeed. Yes. Yes. Yes
GB: But —
WM: I did yes. So there we go.
GB: But thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for your contribution.
WM: Nothing else you want to add is there?
GB: I don’t think so but if there is we can always add it later.
WM: Yes. Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Walter Morris
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gill Barnes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMorrisW170218
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Walter Morris was born in Kettering and started employment in 1939; after a while, older workers disappeared mostly to join the Territorial Army. He enlisted in the Air Training Corps, 101 Squadron, based at RAF Grafton Underwood. Walter reported to Lord’s Cricket Ground in February 1942, followed by Initial Training Wing and at Scarborough. Then he moved to Hull where he flew Tiger Moths. During his training in Canada he flew Tiger Moths and other types, ending up qualifying as a bomb aimer. Back to Great Britain, he was posted at RAF Silverstone, RAF Swinderby and RAF East Kirkby. He flew Anson Wellingtons Stirlings and Lancasters. Discusses aircrew selection, enemy aircraft, flying conditions, day and night bombing, aircraft, bomb damage, crew morale, operational tours, the Normandy campaign with details on operations in Germany, France and Netherlands. Walter became an instructor after the end of the first tour. He was re-crewed at RAF North Luffenham for far east service, but was posted in India until demobilised in 1946. He kept in touch with the air crew for reunions.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:18:09 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
India
Netherlands
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1946
630 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
crewing up
home front
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Silverstone
RAF Swinderby
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/PMotterheadN1501.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/PMottersheadN1504.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/AMotterheadN150719.2.mp3
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Title
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Mottershead, Bluey
Nevil Mottershead
N Mottershead
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Mottershead, N
Description
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Two items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader 'Bluey' Mottershead DFC (b. 1922, Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a pilot with 158 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-07-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Ok. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is me, Annie Moody and the interviewee is Bluey Mottershead. And the interview is taking place at Mr Mottershead’s home in Brailsford on the 19th of July 2015. So, off you go. Tell me a little bit about your, your childhood.
NM: Yes.
AM: And leading up to why you decided to join the RAF, Bluey?
NM: Well, I was born on a farm in Shropshire. I was the sixth child of my parents but they had lost two previous to me arriving on the scene and therefore, when I arrived I was treated something special. And that special has been with me all my life. And my best friend from my youth, in my youth, was also, had joined the Royal Air Force for aircrew duties and he was in a place called Honington. On a live station in Suffolk. And while they were taking a NAAFI break a bomber came over, dropped a bomb, hit the NAAFI and killed four of them. And then thereafter I was stood in the churchyard of my village while they were burying him. There went the past and so —
AM: What age would you be then Bluey?
NM: Eighteen.
AM: You were eighteen.
NM: And so, when it came around to the January after Christmas I thought I have got to go and revenge for my friend. And so, on the 18th — on the 8th of January 1942 I went to Shrewsbury and signed up for aircrew duties and I became nineteen at the end of that particular week. And so I was sent home on what they called deferred service following the medicals that I had at Shrewsbury and going to Cardington for forty eight hours to have the medicals there. And when I returned I received this letter from the Air Ministry, shall we say, saying, ‘You are now going home on deferred service and we will call you when we’re ready.’ Well, I thought that date would never come but anyway, eventually I received information from them which said report to Lord’s Cricket Ground on the 7th July 1941. No. That would be wrong. No. 1941 it was.
AM: ‘41.
NM: And there was hundreds of us there. All from over the country. The same men who had been on deferred service and they were all called together to the, to Lords Cricket Ground. And then were allocated sleeping accommodation in St Johns Wood. In a lovely place called Viceroy Court. And we were lying on palliases on the floor and there was no furniture but quite obviously the flats would be luxury flats. And having done that they decided right we can’t keep all these men here. It would be rather dangerous. There were thousands of us in a very small area and if the Germans had got to know, then bombed the area they’d have killed thousands of us. And they decided to send parties of us out and I was sent to Scampton. Just the job. And of course Scampton was a live station and we were all very interested to watch these Hampdens and things taking off. The Hampdens I didn’t care two hoots for. In fact, I did go to one of the satellites of Scampton and had a ride in one which I didn’t think was fit for purpose. And so when that was over came back to St Johns Wood which was called ACRC.
AM: What did you actually do at Scampton? Did you just —
NM: Oh just normal.
AM: Square bashing.
NM: Square bashing and all sort of things connected with the air [pause] I’m sorry. My –
AM: Oh don’t worry.
NM: Identification of aircraft and all that sort of thing, you see.
AM: Right.
NM: But anyway we were shipped back, back to ACRC at St John’s Wood and from there I was sent to Newquay in Cornwall for my ITW. Now, having completed all that we then were sent to a little airfield by High Wycombe called Booker and there we were introduced to the Tiger Moth. And I had a very senior flight lieutenant, old flight lieutenant as my teacher sort of thing. And he and I got on very well and in the end I discovered afterwards that having been sent on for the next stage I’d never gone solo in this Tiger Moth. I’d flown it time enough again with him in there. So, then the time came they said, ‘Right. Off you go home. Take a bit of leave at Christmas and report to —' a place at Manchester. A park. Something.
AM: Heaton. Heaton Park.
NM: Heaton Park. Heaton Park. There once again there was thousands of us and we were billeted out and I was billeted with a family — together with a friend of mine, Ron Champion and we were there. And funny things happened which don’t, have nothing to do with my life’s —
AM: Oh no. Tell us. Tell us.
NM: We [pause] there was a small area within the park itself was RAF property. And outside that, outside that we were ourselves again and of course we were staying with these people. Well, one young lad was seen walking around outside the RAF area after midnight. And so of course they called him in and said, ‘What’s the problem?’ He said, ‘Well, my landlady keeps getting in bed with me.’ And [laughs] do you know there must, must have been fifty or so had been there before and they never said a word and he had to go and let the cat out of the bag. After completing all that of course it was decided because we had not got the facilities in this country to train two thousand pilots and so it was decided to send us overseas and I was very fortunate in as much as in the January 1942 we sailed out of Liverpool for Halifax, Nova Scotia. And I do not recommend being in a smaller boat crossing the Atlantic at that time of the year. There was a little, a Polish destroyer with us and he kept disappearing out of sight and coming up the other side. How the hell they kept stuff in their whatever they call them. Where they keep — do all the food for them. I can’t remember.
AM: The galley.
NM: The galley. And anyway one or two of them the first morning out — the boat we were [pause] I think it was lunchtime. No. It had got to be morning and the boat did this. Twice.
AM: Rocking about in the sea.
NM: And everything on the table went whoosh in to a ruck on the floor. Well half of them looked at it and since they were little bit of somehow or other being affected by being at sea half of them went [laughs] went missing the next, the next day and boy could I eat, and I ate everything that came in front of me.
AM: You were not seasick then.
NM: No. No. It didn’t trouble me one little bit and then having landed we got on the train and went to Moncton. The PDSI. Personnel department of the –whatever it is. I can’t remember. And there we stayed. And one of the lads on the boat —I said, I said to him, ‘Shall we go to St George’s Church tonight? To the service.’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ So we went to the service and there we made friends with a family and I’ve been in touch with that family right after the war and they came and stayed with me. How wonderful things are. And then it was decided then we were ready and we were going to be shipped down to the United States. So, we got on a train and we were on that train for two days and three nights. It stopped at Toronto and I managed to get somebody on the train to contact my cousin in Toronto and he was, he came to the train to see me. Well I didn’t know him because he was in uniform and the last time I’d seen him he was in civvies. And he didn’t know me because I was in uniform. But nevertheless it went ok and on we went down into, into Georgia. Turner Field, Georgia. After a short time there they divided us up and I was sent in to, in to Lakeland in Florida.
AM: Yeah. We’re ok.
NM: Yeah. Lakeland in Florida.
AM: Actually. [pause] Ok. I think we’re ok.
NM: And then we were flying Stearmans and having completed what was necessary we were then shipped to Macon in Georgia to fly in the second stage. They called it Advanced Flying School. And we were flying multi —whatever the plane was called. I ought to have my logbook here. That would have helped a great deal. But nevertheless we were flying. And I was very lucky that the instructor that I got was, had been a pupil himself in class 42a and I was in class 42i. We had reached that stage there were so many classes. And we did all the necessary and then we were passed on to Valdosta which was Advanced Flying School. And there we were flying twin engines. Three types of twin engine as well as the A6 which we called [pause] we called the Harvard. And my instructor was an American lieutenant and so he said, ‘Come on Mottershead. We’re going in the Harvard today.’ So off we go and get in this Harvard. And he said, ‘Right. Do the checks.’ So, I did the check. ‘Ok. Taxi around and take off.’ Everything alright, but my right wing was down, and my left wing was up there and I couldn’t get the damned thing right. I thought what have I not done? And I realised the lock that was in the joystick — I hadn’t pulled it out [laughs] so then the wing came up and everything was nice. He said, ‘I shouldn’t do that again if I was you. Watch it in future.’ [laughs] And got back and landed and he said, ‘Right. Off you go and fly it yourself.’ So I did do. And it was a beautiful aircraft to fly. It touched down on all three wheels. No trouble at all. So, having completed there we then on the, in the October, came up for our papers of authority as being a pilot under the United States Army Air Force and I’ve got my silver type wings. The American wings. Then it was a case of I went before a board of four senior American officers and they looked at all my paperwork and said, ‘Would you like to stay behind and teach future classes of UK,’ and because of something that had happened while I was at Macon, Georgia I had to say, ‘I’m very sorry, but I can’t.’ I’ll tell you that separately. And so, on the train back to Macon —back to Moncton in New Brunswick of course I’d already made contact with the family, so I re-made the contact with this family and got on so wonderfully well but the main thing about being here in Britain and being over there was the fact that we were limited by ration books to XYZ whereas they —it was there for you to buy and eat etcetera. Marvellous. And of course, I could eat. There’s no argument about it. So, after a while they said, ‘Right,’ — get your knapsack, not your knapsack, the bag with all your bits and pieces in. ‘There’s a boat in for you.’ So, right, we got on the train, landed in Halifax and walked off on to the quay. You can say that again. A boat. It was the original Queen Elizabeth. Oh dear. And we got on board that feeling millionaires. But there was that many on from different countries and different regiments and all the rest of it. All coming across with one purpose in mind and that was to kill Nazism. And so, we crossed the Atlantic unescorted. Our liner was doing twenty six knots during the day and through the night she was doing thirty two ‘cause that gave it that little bit extra to get out where the Germans might well have figured out where we might be on such and such a time and so, one morning we woke up and we were in the Clyde.
AM: Just like that.
NM: Just like that. We’d gone through the boom and we were in the Clyde. So we had to then gather our things together and come down stairs after stairs ‘til we came to water level. And then we got on tugs which took us over to dry land and there was a train waiting for us to take us to [pause] well you’re asking me now [pause] well-known place up in Yorkshire anyway. And of course they said, ‘Right. Well you’re here now. Right. Take a bit of leave. You’ve been away three —six months.. Go and see your parents,’ etcetera which I did do and then I got notice, right —'Report to Little Rissington in Gloucestershire.’ And that’s where I was flying Oxfords. I had a little student tuition on the Oxford and then the instructor said, ‘Right. Mottershead go and get yourself some practice.’ Now –
AM: So how big was an Oxford? What?
NM: Oxford aircraft.
AM: Yeah. How big? How big was that?
NM: Twin engine.
AM: Right. Ok.
NM: The American when they open the throttles get hold of the throttles get hold of them and pull them back. We do this. Get behind the throttles and press them forward. So I was more or less getting the American system out of, out of use and back in. So he said, ‘Right Mottershead. Take that one and go and get a bit of flying yourself.’ So me — I flew at about two ninety. Something like that. And flew until I picked up the River Severn and I flew up the River Severn until I got to within a mile to where I lived and I flew around and around and around. And after a while I thought, right, well I’d better get back. In the meantime a front had moved in and I was above cloud. And I was flying down towards back in the general direction of Little Rissington and I did not know where I was. And I’ve got, I came up with —I shall either A) I can jump out with my parachute and let my aircraft go and crash in to something. Or B) I can go down through and hit something that I wouldn’t wish to hit like a church tower or something like that. And as I was pondering over it I looked on my port beam and there was an aircraft coming towards me and he passed in front of me and I said to myself, ‘If you know where you’re going I’m going with you.’ And I followed him and he, it was a, it was a radar station where —not radar. Signals and all the rest of it. At a place called Madeley near Hereford. And he landed and I landed after him. And so they just picked up the phone and rang Little Rissington, ‘One of your boys has touched down here.’ So he came over and I took off and followed him home. Went the day well. Having done all that I was then posted to Harwell where we had clapped out Wellingtons who’d done all the necessary they wanted to or at least they were wanted for and were in a clapped-out situation. And as we stood there we crewed up. I did not choose anybody. I just stood there.
AM: I was going to ask you about crewing up. How that went.
NM: I stood there, and they came and joined me. It was as easy as that.
AM: Yeah.
NM: Right.
AM: Together or in ones and twos?
NM: Well, I don’t whether they’d been talking with one lot over there and they looked at me and thought well I like the look of him and so they came over and joined me. So, I’d got everything except the flight engineer and the second gunner at that stage. Well, I didn’t stay at Harwell but I went to one of their satellites. A place we called Hampstead Norreys near Newbury and we were flying out of there. Well, we had been warned, ‘Don’t over shoot.’ Come in and land properly because there was a big pit, gravel pit at the end of the runway and people had gone in. Oh dear. The trouble. Anyway, we flew that and did all the necessaries and then having finished they said, ‘Right off you go home and get some leave and report to a place called Riccall,’ near –
AM: York.
NM: Yes. Selby. There we go, there we were introduced to the Halifax. Four engine bombers.
AM: So, you finish your training, you’ve got your crew and you’ve gone to Riccall. Have you been assigned to a squadron at this point?
NM: No. Not yet.
AM: Right. Ok.
NM: And there at Riccall I picked up a flight engineer and another gunner. And once again in latter years I said to the flight engineer, ‘How did you come to join me?’ He said ‘Well, I saw you standing there and I walked over and stood with you. It’s as easy as that.’ And so the same with the gunner. He came and joined me. And then of course on completion of that but before then the chief flying instructor at Riccall was called Harry Drummond. So, I got used, just used to flying the Halifax. He said, ‘Right, Mottershead take your crew and there’s, one of the planes over there. One of the Halibags. Take that and get a bit of flying hours in with them.’ Fair enough. Thank you very much and off we went. We got in this aircraft. Taxied around to the runway. Ok. Right. Open the throttle. I was belting down the runway and looked at my speedometer. I hadn’t got any. No speed. And it was too late to stop so I took off without it. And I flew without a speedometer around a time or two. And we tried to, what had happened we’d left the cover on the pitot head. Once again checking beforehand. We tried — first of all we opened the hatch in the front and tried to push it off and we couldn’t do anything like that. We couldn’t reach it. And so I switched on the heater and the heater wouldn’t burn it off. I thought, ‘Well, righto. Well, I’ve got you up here. You lads. I’d better get you down again.’ So, I said, ‘Right, we’re going in now.’ And I approached a little too fast because I didn’t want to stall and go in before I reached the runway. And so, I sort of hit the runway and bounced a little bit which wasn’t good for old Halifax bombers and whipped around and parked up where I’d taken it from and the crew got out. The wireless operator stood on the shoulders of the flight engineer, reached up and took the pitot head cover off just before Harry Drummond arrived around the corner. And he gave me a rollicking for landing the way I did but I didn’t tell him what had gone wrong. Went the day well again.
AM: Yeah.
NM: And so the day came that we had to go to Lissett. We were transferred to Lissett. Now, I think I’d probably heard of Lissett but we all went. There was Doug Cameron and his crew and myself and my crew. And of course, we had to get a bit of flying in together before we went on operations. I arrived there. Can you switch off a second, I’ll go and fetch —
[recording paused]
NM: Are you on?
AM: Ok. We’re back on.
NM: Right. I arrived at Lissett on the 15th of June 1943. And after a familiarisation on the 16th and the 17th — on the 21st was my first operation. To Krefeld. Now, all targets, as Bomber Command will tell you, have got searchlights and flak as well as fighters waiting to get hold of you. So, we went, went through the — etcetera. And poor Doug Cameron — a different story. I must tell you about him. Not on my record. And as a result, when we got back — you see a rear gunner never sees what’s ahead of him. He can only see what’s behind and he could see the fires in Krefeld burning thirty miles away. So when we arrived back at Lissett we went to the debriefing room and he said to me, ‘I’m not bloody going again.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘I am not bloody going again.’ And he was taken out and stripped straightaway of his brevet, sergeants and all the rest of it. What happened to him I don’t know but in, in hindsight he did me a very good turn. For they took my other gunner, mid-upper gunner from me and a couple of gunners had just completed a tour — a Canadian pilot’s tour of operations. But they needed another five runs themselves so, one of them related, the Groupie, said to — ‘Go around and see Mottershead. He’s looking for some gunners.’ And they came around to see me and we were discussing one thing or another. And I said, ‘Right. This is the position. My job is to fly that thing. And if you tell me to dive to port I shall dive to port. Don’t you worry about it. Everything you tell me I shall do.’ They said, ‘We’re in.’ And so they stayed with me for their five ops which cleared them. Then I got my original gunner back. Mid-upper gunner back.
AM: Mid-upper.
NM: Having lost the rear gunner. And then I had nineteen different gunners on my tour of operation which was must be a flaming record with the exception of perhaps a wing commander and that who had to grab a crew where he could get one.
AM: Why did they keep changing, Bluey?
NM: Well, I had to have gunners and they [pause] Smith and Edwards were the names of the two gunners were and we got on a like a mountain on fire and so it went on one after another. I went to Berlin on three occasions. I went to [pause] oh hell. Where’s the cathedral?
AM: Oh.
NM: We went —
AM: Dresden. Not Dresden.
NM: No. Cologne.
AM: Oh Cologne. Yeah.
NM: I went to Cologne on three occasions. I went to Mannheim on three occasions and in between all the other nights that we were bombing etcetera. On the second visit to Mannheim we were, people do not realise this, we were flying in complete darkness and other than the fact we saw markers ahead so the bomb aimer led us, led me to it, and he said, ‘Right. Bombs gone.’ Two or three seconds later there was such a hell of a bang. I said, ‘What the bloody hell was that?’ And what had happened an aircraft above us had dropped his load and hit my port inner engine. It sheared the blades off the engine. Off the propellers. And of course, the engine ran away and with it going like that it shook the plane as though it was really in trouble. Anyway, fortunately I’d got a very good flight engineer. He shut the engine down. Closed it down. Then he pumped all the fuel out of the tank nearest to the port inner across the wing to the tanks on the other side you see. Now, my reaction was, when that happened — stick the nose down let’s get out of here which I did do. Because the explosion had hit the Perspex around me on the port, especially on the port side and did other damage etcetera and so it was, we were down to five thousand feet before we could make headway. Now, everyone in Bomber Command will tell you if you are on your own flying at five thousand feet by heck you’ll soon have somebody on your tail. So, we were crossing and as we flew cross country in the dark I could see the lights of this town or city, whatever it was, I could see all the street lights because being under Nazi control they didn’t have to have a blackout. And so I said, ‘Right, get some Window ready in case the searchlights come up,’ etcetera. And we gave a dose of Window and they didn’t come on and we kept flying and I crossed —
AM: What’s Window?
NM: Window.
AM: What’s that mean?
NM: Slips of paper, silver backed paper.
AM: Oh yes.
NM: And that dropping by the millions fill their, their —
AM: The radar.
NM: The radar.
AM: The signal.
NM: What we call Grass.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: They couldn’t pick out what was what and [pause] where’d I got to —
AM: So, you’re on your way back.
NM: On our way back –
AM: You’ve seen all the lights.
NM: We crossed the coast and I said to the flight engineer, ‘What’s the fuel like?’ He said, ‘We’ve got enough to get back to Lissett.’ And so, we went back to Lissett. Now, the hydraulics on the Halifax is controlled by the port inner engine. The hydraulic. And I didn’t know whether my undercarriage was locked. So I called in and they said, ‘Right. Fly down the runway as low as you can, and we’ll put the searchlight on you and have a look at you.’ So, having done that they said, ‘Right. We think you’re locked in alright.’ I said, ‘Right.’ So I went around again and landed. Went the day well.
AM: Again.
NM: We were back home. And it went on until the last. My last trip was to Berlin on the 22nd of November 1943 and the Wing Commander Jock Calder was on that night. I feel sure he was on. So when we came, you know, came from our aircraft in to debriefing Jock said to me, ‘That’s it Bluey. No more.’ And that was the end of my tour. The end of my flying altogether. I never did fly anything else.
AM: Ever.
NM: Ever.
AM: DFC.
NM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I then, they decided they needed controllers for operating Oboe. Now, Oboe was controlling aircraft over Germany from, from either — the main station was in Norfolk. Winterton. Did you happen to see the programme last night on — it was all about the lighthouses turned into houses etcetera. And Winterton was the Cat station. Now there was another station down in Deal in Kent and that was called the Mouse station. And the Cat station was controlled — the Cat station controlled the pilot. The Mouse station was talking to the navigator, bomb aimer. We’re talking about Mosquitos. And so, he would, when he reached the area he wanted to he’d pick up our signal. If he was too near he had dots. If he was too far out he had dashes. He had to have a steady signal and kept flying at a distance from the station in Norfolk at a distance of say two hundred and fifty miles away. And if he kept flying he would complete a two hundred and fifty mile circuit all around us, you see. But [pause] so, I had to go down to Swanage to learn all about this Oboe business at a little place called Tilly Whim. Down there. They seemed to have a station of the same thing. So when we’d finished. Right. I had no say on where I was going and I was sent to Winterton in Norfolk. Not to the one in Kent. The next morning after I arrived there I walked into the signals office and there was a young lady on the teleprinter talking to headquarters for 8 Group. Headquarters at — I forget the name for the moment. On the tele — on the teleprinter. And when she’d finished she looked at me and I said, ‘You’re wearing too much makeup.’ I’d found my wife. So —
AM: What did she say back?
NM: She didn’t. She [laughs] she was, she was a WAAF, you see. Oh dear. Oh dear and then of course that went on until the war had finished and then they didn’t want anybody there then.
AM: So what exactly were you doing there, Bluey?
NM: I was watching the younger part of the air force. That they’d got everything set up alright. The distance and all that sort of thing. What was going on. And I was even taken from there and posted down in to Deal. The Cat station. For a while.
AM: The Cat one.
NM: Anyway, when the war was over we didn’t need either of them. And so of course I had met Kay and there we are, by hangs another tale. So, I was still in the air force and they decided well you’ve done a lot of link trainer flying. The link trainer aircraft in the dark. It’s a statutory thing but you’re all closed in. You can’t see what was going on. You had to fly by instruments. And so, I learned, I learned how to do that and they posted me first of all to Prestwick in Norfolk.
AM: In –
NM: In Ayrshire. To the airfield there well that was then being taken over to become the airfield for Glasgow.
AM: Yes.
NM: The main airfield. So, I was on there a very short time and they said, ‘Right. Well we’ll post you to Marham in Norfolk.’ And I was on the same thing but when I got there and set up everything and ready for pilots they said well the war’s over we don’t need to do this anymore. And so, the rest of my time I was doing all sorts of jobs. Particularly, orderly officer and all that sort of thing and then I reached the stage where I thought, ‘Right. Look. We’ve got to go ahead now. We’ve got civilian life ahead,’ and so my dear wife and I decided —
AM: So, you were married by this time.
NM: We were getting married then.
AM: Ok. Yeah. Sorry.
NM: The war had finished up. We had already arranged the marriage up in Lanarkshire because she was a Lanarkshire girl, for the 18th of August 1945. The war finished in the Far East the 15th of August 1945. And so, we went up there and got married and thereafter settled down and I didn’t quite know what to do. Like a lot of people who had been in the services it was difficult to know exactly what to do. Anyway, there was a company in Liverpool called Silcocks Animal Foods that supplied to farming communities and I’d been a farmer’s son. And the position I was in and a decent sort of looking fellow the Silcocks agent who used to, who went to Shropshire, covered Shropshire said, ‘Well why don’t you join us?’ And so, I made enquiries and I joined Silcocks. I was sent to Nuneaton under an agent who had been there years to help him and I did all the necessary. And then came a vacancy of an area in Derbyshire and so I was sent from there to Derbyshire and landed in Brailsford on the, in August 1952. Something like that. And settled down and I was going around the farms and of course they knew I was a flying type and at that time Brooke Bond had a certain types of cigarette. Not cigarettes but cards in the thing.
AM: Yes.
NM: And that helped me to get familiar with the families etcetera. Swapping and one thing and another. And I reached the stage where one Remembrance Sunday morning at Brailsford, after that Mr Cecil Dalton who ran Silkolene Lubricants at Belper said, ‘Neville, will you come and work for me?’ And I said, ‘Mr Cecil, I will come and work for you.’ And I went and worked for Silkolene Lubricants until I retired.
AM: Right.
NM: Good.
AM: Neville. It sounds funny to hear you called Neville. I always think of you as Bluey.
NM: Yeah. Well I’m still known as Bluey of course. As you know.
AM: Just tell me why you became called Bluey.
NM: Because of my hair. I had ginger red hair. Now, the Australians — those big kangaroos in Australia which have reddy brown hair were called Blues. And so, when the first Australian saw me he said, ‘Well you’re a Bluey.’ And that’s it.
AM: It stuck.
NM: And it’s been with me ever since.
AM: Can I ask you a little bit about the 158 Squadron Association.
NM: Yes.
AM: And you became chairman I think. Tell me a little about that.
NM: Yes. Well I started looking, I started when I came [pause] when I’d finished. Well as soon as I could, I can’t remember exactly, I decided to draw up a register of all those who had been with 158 Squadron and [pause] now I’m looking for something in particular. I think I left it next door. But it’s the book with all the names in. The complete crews. And I kept getting these names of these, of these people and inviting them. And so in 1989 I think it was I got the freedom of entry into this town of Bridlington for the squadron and that’s how it developed from there. And I’m still now president of the squadron until such time as I kick my boots and somebody else will take over.
AM: So, every year you go up to Lissett.
NM: Every time. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now I’ll —
AM: And what about the memorial? Tell me a little bit more about the memorial at Lissett.
NM: Yes.
AM: How did that come about?
NM: Well. After Lissett the old airfield became a farm. Belonged to a farmer. And the powers that be decided it would be the ideal site to put up wind generators. So they put up twelve wind generators on the old airfield. In the meantime, 158 — if you reverse those figure you’ve got 851 and that was the number of young people who were killed on that squadron alone. Eight hundred and fifty one. Eight hundred and fifty males and one female. The one female was a sergeant WAAF in the Met office and she’d never been in an aeroplane and she went on a flight with someone unscheduled just to show her what went on. The damned thing crashed on [pause] that Head that comes out north of Bridlington. Crashed there and killed the lot of them. And she was one of them. So there was eight hundred and fifty airmen, men, who were killed and one WAAF. And so, it was decided by the people who were going to put these generators up that they needed a memorial and of course we were behind it and said yes. And that memorial is still drawing people. Just as the Angel of the North drew people to see it so the one at Lissett. Is that still on? In fact, the other day, one of our members who lives up in the Wakefield area had been up there and gone to have a look at it. He said, ‘It looks awful,’ he said, ‘All we’ve got is stalks left.’ What happened is there are flowers which bloom.
AM: Yeah. There’s poppies there.
NM: And then it’s all left so that the seeds from that drop down to the ground and re –
AM: Yeah.
NM: Come alive again. And he went at the bad time of the year. So, when he rang again I said, ‘Look there’s nothing I can do about it. As much as I appreciate you ringing me and telling me. I know what its like. But,’ I said, ‘We have nobody in that area at all to do anything.’ But the locals do it. Anyway, I understood that they’d even called in the East Midlands, East Yorkshire organisation had called in people to go and have a clean up there.
AM: People.
NM: I hadn’t ordered it. They just went and did it.
AM: Excellent because it’s a lovely memorial isn’t it.
NM: It’s a lovely memorial. A friend of mine from Derbyshire whose funeral I attended this year — he always talked about me and us and I said, ‘Well take a run up there and have a look at the memorial yourself.’ So he, along with another couple and he and his wife went to see it and then I saw him a few days afterwards. I said, ‘What do you think of the memorial?’ And he said, ‘It’s a very very wonderful thing.’ He said, ‘I read every name on that memorial and yours wasn’t on it.’ [laughs] So, I said, ‘Well it won’t be will it? I’m still here.’
AM: Still here. They’re the ones that are not.
NM: He didn’t realise that you see. But it really is. Oh, and let me go and fetch something first.
[recording paused]
AM: So I’m looking at a picture of the first meeting of the Squadron Association.
NM: In 1947.
AM: Ok. Were you there? Are you on it?
NM: Yes. Yes. I’m on the back row. You’ll see me.
AM: Point. Point yourself out to me.
NM: This little chap here, look.
AM: Oh of course you are.
NM: And that was arranged by Scruffy Dale at — I forget the name of the place now. And we all turned up for this and that photograph was taken. And there’s all sorts of people on that photograph and I can — there’s no one left on that photograph as far as I’m concerned. Only me. All the rest are gone. Now, I want to show you this because this is what I’m working on.
AM: Bluey’s showing me the most beautiful tapestry. Is it tapestry or cross stitch?
NM: No. It’s tapestry.
AM: Tapestry of the Halifax and —
NM: The crew.
AM: The crew and it’s beautiful and we’ll take a photograph of it.
NM: It’s not finished yet ‘cause I’ll go and fetch the other bit if I haven’t got it here. This is the other bit.
AM: How long have you been doing this for Bluey?
NM: [laughs] Oh heaven knows.
AM: It’s lovely. I’m going to end the interview now but we’ll take a photograph of this — of the tapestry that Bluey’s been doing.
NM: Now that fits. That will be fitted in there.
AM: Right.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bluey Mottershead
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-19
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMotterheadN150719
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:45:34 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born on a farm in Shropshire, his best friend from his youth joined the Royal Air Force as aircrew and was killed at RAF Honington when a German aircraft bombed the station. A desire for revenge made him enlist for flying duties in January 1941. He was sent to RAF Scampton for basic training where he had a flight in a Hampden which he rated as "not fit for purpose".
Flying training commenced at RAF Booker on Tiger Moths and he was then sent out of England as part of the Empire Training Scheme. Flying training on Stearman aircraft recommenced at Lakeland in Florida followed by multi-engined training at Macon in Georgia and Valdosta for advanced training. In October 1942 he became a pilot under the American Army Air Force System and declined an offer to stay and become an instructor.
Returning to Britain on an unescorted Queen Elizabeth liner, he trained on Oxfords at RAF Little Rissington. Posted to RAF Harwell to fly, in Bluey's terms "clapped out Wellingtons" he describes the system for forming a crew. They were posted to RAF Riccall to fly the Halifax.
The next posting was to an operational squadron at RAF Lissett where he did his first operational flight to Krefeld in June 1943 and trips to Berlin, Cologne and Mannheim. After his trip to Krefeld, his rear gunner refused to fly and was removed. On his second trip to Mannheim, Bluey's aircraft was struck by a bomb from an aircraft flying above. They had to reduce height and so used Window to disguise their location. The final trip was to Berlin in November 1943 and, having completed his tour, was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Bluey never flew again. Sent to Tilly Whim, Bluey was trained to operate Oboe and explains the device. Posted to an Oboe station at RAF Winterton to monitor junior operatives, he met his future wife.
After the war had finished he became an instructor on the Link Trainer and sent to various RAF stations and finally to RAF Marham from where he was demobilised and returned to civilian life. In civilian life, employment in the farm feed industry was followed by time in the lubricant industry until retirement. Bluey compiled a register of all crews that flew with 158 Squadron and formed a Squadron association in 1947, of which he became president, and organised a memorial to the squadron at former RAF Lissett.
Temporal Coverage
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1943-06
1943-11
Spatial Coverage
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England--Gloucestershire
England--Norfolk
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Canada
United States
Florida
Florida--Lakeland
Georgia
Georgia--Macon
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Mannheim
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
158 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Flying Training School
Halifax
Hampden
Harvard
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
memorial
military ethos
Oboe
Oxford
pilot
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Honington
RAF Lissett
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Marham
RAF Riccall
RAF Scampton
recruitment
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/8891/PPayneR1706.2.jpg
159404936ab96ee8ba4b3699b7729414
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/8891/APayneR150703.1.mp3
54749e1037180c8d268a7353bd91c58f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TJ: My name’s Tina James I’m here with Reg Payne at his home in Kettering Northants today is 3rd July 2015. So Reg you were with Bomber Command but let’s go back to the beginning and er where were you born and when?
RP: I was born in Kettering on on the 11th March 1923 which.
TJ: So you’re back to where your home town then aren’t you.
RP: Well um.
TJ: Your back in your home town now?
RP: Oh yes where I was born yes yes I was born probably only a couple of hundred yards from here really.
TJ: Really.
RP: The other side of the town.
TJ: And your parents um was your father in the First World War?
RP: Father yes he was in the army of course in in France.
TJ: Yes
RP: In the First World War yes.
TJ: Did he have a bad time?
RP: He I don’t think he had such a bad time because I think he was a cook he did a lot of cooking and I think because of that he wasn’t in the front line quite so much as he as he would have been.
TJ: So good yeah and then you went to school in Kettering?
RP: Pardon.
TJ: You went to school in Kettering?
RP: I went to school in Kettering yeah I went to school when I was fourteen when I left school sorry sorry.
TJ: You left school you left school at fourteen.
RP: Sorry I’m getting confused with when I went to work.
TJ: Yes.
RP: I went to school until I was fourteen.
TJ: Yes.
RP: I went to the er St. Mary’s both church schools St. Mary’s Church and then the Parish Church School.
TJ: And what were you good at at school?
RP: Er if anything art I think yeah.
TJ: Okay and you’re still doing art and we’ll come to that later. So what was your first job then when you left school?
RP: Well when I left school er oddly enough er I worked for the British Legion the er the British Legion Midland Region Department they they just moved into a huge house in Kettering and er and so far they had another British Legion they didn’t have an office in Kettering at the time but they took over this big building and er and members of the staff moved from er Bristol to come to here to work and it was the British Legion Midland Region Office in in Kettering and.
TJ: And what was your job with them what did you do?
RP: I was I was in the registry office looking after all the files all the all the people writing in to the British Legion for advice and help I had to I had to once they got involved with the er British Legion we had to make a file out for them they had a file with a reference number and from them on when they wrote again they had to quote their quote their name and address and also their reference number and er and er all their files were like a big library and I used to climb up to these racks and and get the er file connected to this person that was claiming benefit.
TJ: And how long did you work for them?
RP: I worked there until I until I was called up you see by eighteen you see you had to you had to go into the forces when you were eighteen the wars on you see you you had.
TJ: And were you called up straight away for the RAF?
RP: No the er I volunteered for the RAF when I was about seventeen and a half because if you waited at the age of the eighteen if you waited until you were eighteen and you were called up during the war you could be sent down the mines if you waited until you were called up the the authorities they did what they wanted with you they they could do anything with you so if you if you wanted to join the RAF especially to fly you had to go volunteer when you were seventeen and a half.
TJ: And that’s what you did?
RP: And that’s what I did yeah.
TJ: And then you went in at eighteen then?
RP: That’s right I went in just before I was eighteen yeah they called for me yeah.
TJ: So what was your first first experience of the RAF what were you doing?
RP: Er I was training as a wireless operator wireless operator and air gunner yes.
TJ: Where where was the training?
RP: The training was in Blackpool.
TJ: How long?
RP: Er I was in Blackpool I should think for er six months six months in Blackpool most most of that was er learning Morse Code we had two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon Morse Code and that was in the and that was in the tram sheds in the winter.
TJ: Not a lot of fun then?
RP: Mmm.
TJ: Not much fun?
RP: Well it Blackpool near near the coast in bitterly cold winds and every so often a tram used to come into the tram sheds and the doors had to be opened absolutely wide to allow it to come in or to go out and we used to get the horrible cold winds coming in from the sea and we were sitting at tables there lllistening to Morse Code all the time the instructors were ex Naval er Fleet Air Arm wireless operators naval people and they all sat there with great big overcoats on and helmets [laughs] sending Morse out to us but they used to send out articles from the newspaper stories of course as we were writing it down we used to read at the same time so it made it a little bit more interesting but that but that we used to have as I say we used to have about three hours in the morning or three hours in the afternoon and then in the afternoon we had to go to Stanley Park for gymnasium lessons and running PT and that sort of thing and also we used to have to go into er the Tower Ballroom and learn how to march we had we had to wear slippers we had to wear plimsolls for that and we were taught to march about turn, right turn you know about turn saluting to the front saluting to the left we had all that you see at Blackpool.
TJ: So at the end of that time you could do Morse and you could march and you could salute so where did they send you next?
RP: Well that that only took us until probably about ten or eleven words a minute in Morse we we had to in increase our speed quite a bit after but after that after that we er went we went down into oh gosh it’s it’s in that list somewhere in it er Yatesbury Yatesbury and that was a radio school.
TJ: Where’s Yatesbury?
RP: Yatesbury is in Wiltshire it was a big school that taught you all about radio about the the valves the different grids and elements you know the different er the way a valve worked and and how radio worked and and we were taught there to assemble our own radio sets and er and then get in touch with people in the next room once you got your radio all connected and working in working condition you could then call up you know to er the call sign and and people would hear you perhaps two or three rooms away and they were sending messages back again just to just to the valves there’s there’s tetrodes, pentodes, diodes you know all all different grids on valves and so forth we had to learn all about chokes and resistances and and er and er electricity and er.
TJ: Did it come easy to you?
RP: It was it wasn’t it was complicated really you know but the thing is we used to study at night school a bit you know ‘cos in the in the base itself there was no entertainment much there at all so er so at nights you’d probably go through what you were taught in the day time but I was lucky really because er er er one of the men one of the men who he did my training with he was a Kettering man and he worked for the he worked for the Evening Telegraph and he knew shorthand he was very good at shorthand and he could he could when the instructor was explaining things to us he could he could jot a lot of stuff down with shorthand so at nights when we got back into the billet at night we would get together in the bedroom and go through what we’d been taught in the day and I perhaps explain that I couldn’t understand what they were saying about the chokes and the different grids and things and the anodes the tetrodes and pentodes and er and er what he would do he would he would explain it all to me again you know he was quite quite good.
TJ: Great, so how long did that last?
RP: That that would be about four months about four months.
TJ: And then take us through what happened next after that?
RP: Well after that after that I went to Northcotes and and actually I think this was mainly this was mainly a break I think to get away from school room work and I actually started doing some er listening out there was a coastal command aerodrome in in use on the on the on the er on the er it be on the Lincolnshire coast up near Grimsby and and it was the coastal command aircraft going out and I used to have to sit and er listen out on frequencies and pick up any messages that came through I had to I had to write them down and take them into the flying control tower like I was like a contact between the aeroplanes that were flying over the North Sea and the base at Northcotes and and so being able to read the Morse I could I could take messages down and put them through to the operations room and they could er and they could go through with that but then later I had to go back to London then and and to the Albert Hall and I and we had er by that time the RAF had im improved all their radio equipment being used in the aircraft and and the stuff I was taught on was all obsolete so I had to go down to London to the Albert Hall there the Albert Hall was a training centre during the war for RAF and and we had to go through it all again all the different up to date radio it was.
TJ: How long were you in London?
RP: I was there for about four months.
TJ: So what so about when was that then?
RP: It was from September probably till till after Christmas.
TJ: Of Thirty Nine?
RP: Er no er you know it could be Forty I think.
TJ: Probably yes.
RP: Yes yes.
TJ: So while you were in London what was going on there in London?
RP: Well it we were lucky really because there there was there were one or two alerts but we never had any bombs never had any bombs at all there we were we were quite lucky that way.
TJ: Indeed in fact when you think what went on in London you were very lucky weren’t you?
RP: Yes yes it was all it was all it was all training you know we did a lot of PT, square bashing and er PT and er in er er is it Stanley not Stanley Park that’s Blackpool isn’t it well where are the big parks in London?
TJ: Regents Park.
RP: Regents Park yes and
TJ: Hyde Park?
RP: Hyde Park yeah that’s it yeah used to play football in there quite a lot as well in there.
TJ: Did you ever venture out in the evenings on the town in London?
RP: We we were we were living we were living in in Albert Court they were luxury luxurious flats just next to the Albert Hall when when at nights when we were in our bedrooms about five storeys high and there was queues waiting to go into the Albert Hall for concerts at night and we used to make little aeroplanes and fly them through the windows and the people down below used to watch them gliding down and that that we used to but we had to be in we had to be in every night at ten o’clock we weren’t allowed out after ten o’clock at night that was the same at Blackpool and when we were at Blackpool if er if your landlady she’d lock the doors at ten o’clock and if if and the RAF Police you see used to be patrolling the streets and if you were caught out there after ten o’clock you were on a charge you were punished on there yeah it was very strict.
TJ: So you finished in London you’ve got you were up to date with the new machinery new wirelesses um what was next?
RP: Next was gunnery we had to go to a gunnery course down on the South Coast to learn about Browning machine guns and er and we had to start flying then and shoot shooting at air at aircraft towing drones we had to learn how to strip a Browning machine gun and er put it together again and fire it and we had er we had a firing range on the sea on the seashore and it was where a lot of sand dunes were on the seashore and they had er an aeroplane they had an aeroplane on a little trolley a little electric trolley and this this er trolley used to go in and and out in and out these sand dunes and you were you were in a gun turret and RAF gun turret aircraft gun turret you’d be watching and all of sudden you’d see this aeroplane it come from behind as it come from behind a a sand dune and go across a short distance you had to get in there quick and fire a burst of machine gun fire and then it would go behind another sand dune and you wouldn’t see it so you’d be scanning round with with your turret like this all the time and then all of sudden you’d see it again and fire another burst at it it gave you a good idea of what it was like to be shooting in an aircraft yes that was part of the gunnery course.
TJ: Did you enjoy that bit?
RP: It was well it was much better [laughs] than just listening learning Morse Code all the time yeah.
TJ: So take us on to what happened next?
RP: Mmm?
TJ: Take us on to what happened after that?
RP: Well the next after that after that I had to go up to er er well [shuffling through papers] log book.
TJ: Good idea get out the log book.
RP: [Looking through log book] I think the first part the first part of my flying it was with we didn’t had it recorded we hadn’t got log books at the time er.
TJ: So can you remember where the airfield was your first experiences?
RP: Yeah its even that’s not in here no.
TJ: Well never mind just go from your memory then. Which planes were you on first?
RP: Mmm?
TJ: Which aircraft were you on first?
RP: We were on on Proctors Proctors they were really tiny little tiny aircraft er.
TJ: How many.
RP: Oh here we are yes I was I was flying in Dominies Dominies and Proctors and and er and all it was is learning how to transfer messages you know back to base and also DF routes using direction finding routes there’s a whole page of it there look on there [pointing out in log book].
TJ: Oh yes.
RP: On there on there I mean even even they put on they filled this in for us and they’ve put one hour, one hour, one hour ten, one hour ten, one hour, one hour, one hour, one hour, one twenty, one ten, I mean they’re not the correct times I mean obviously there’d be odd minutes wouldn’t they yes this is er the using the direction finding aerials loop aerials they were circular aerials and you by turning them round you can get you can get the direction of that of that er transmission that they sent to you so you could plot a position from that you see using the direction finder aerial ‘cos that was all very handy when we were flying in Germany there er yes checheering [?] codes, frequenty changes, calibration codes its all to do with direction finding you know with er using your aerials and that was that was flying in er in Proctors you had just like a little two seater aircraft and it wasn’t very and the Dominies that was like a classroom with about with an instructor in it and about five pupils in it and so that he used to he used to let you have ten minutes at a time on the radio and then another one he’d have ten minutes and then somebody else but when we went in the Proctors we went for about an hour with just the pilot and one wireless operator and then everything we did then you had to do on your own you see and we even had to he used to er fly somewhere over in Wales over the hills you know and er and and he you you had to bring him back to the aerodrome again using your your direction finding experiences that that was all part of the training er you’d two signals there back tuning er frequency changes and bearings it’s all look you see look one hour, one hour, one hour, one hour, one hour, one hour but I mean obviously they filled that in you see but I mean with your flights it could be one hour twenty five minutes or one hour thirty minutes the real times.
TJ: So when was it that you things started to get serious and you went out on actual missions?
RP: Well to start with you see we had to um I had to go where was the place here [looking through papers] this is this this an operational training unit here I was here there and this is where I started flying on Ansoms Ansoms they were twin engine aircraft you know bigger aircraft and er and and I I flew with different different pilots I mean I was with Sergeant Hamilton, PO Bess, Flight Lieutenant Mugridge, Flight Sergeant Gray, Sergeant Parker, Sergeant mm nn Carrow or something, Sergeant Briggs, Sergeant Hollingworth, Sergeant Farrow, they were all and and er I was doing QVM’s, loops, and frequency changes, loops, fixes, QVM’s, MTB’s that’s messages to base you see, yeah, ten loops, two QVM’s the QVM is a course to steer you know so if they pilot if the pilot in an aircraft and er and er and the pilot wanted to go to Lincoln he say to me ‘Reg get me a QVM get me a QVM yeah to Lincoln’ and I would call them up you see and ask for a QVM ‘da da di da da da da da da’ you see QVM [laughs] and er and they would give me a K you know K carry on and I would simply press my key then keep pressing my key then press me key there pressing it and the go ‘ddddddddddd’ that’s enough and I’d say QVM ‘da di da la la da la da dd da’ you know that’s one two five you know and I’d give that to the pilot you know course one two five and then and then er after a while he’d say ‘get me another QVM Reg just in case’ so I’d call them up again and ask for another QVM ‘da da di da da da da’ [laughs] and er and then perhaps this time perhaps be one two eight something like that.
TJ: So when was your first encounter with the enemy?
RP: Well that’s when you see that er that was er this was when I was flying on Ansoms and then and then I got to er to operational training unit OTU that is and that’s where that’s where I joined up with a pilot then you see on there not this one this is er this is an OTU but but I wasn’t actually crewed up I wasn’t actually crewed up ooh I was I was crewed up here with my pilot PO Beetham yeah PO Beetham yeah.
TJ: Oh yes.
RP: When we got to an OTU an operational training unit er er the pilots the pilots and the navigators they all had to go in a hangar there’d perhaps be twenty pilots and twenty navigators and they all had to go in a hangar and then got to sort themselves out into pairs they used to go round looking at each other and say ‘oh excuse me you know I’m a navigator are you a pilot? Have you got a navigator yet?’ you know and the pilot would say ‘no I haven’t got one’ and he said ‘would you like to fly with me’ you see and they’d say ‘yes yes I would you know I’d like to fly with you’ fair enough and as I say that’s the pilot and navigator and in another hangar they’d have wireless operators, and and air gunners and bomb aimers and the and the pilot the pilot and navigator they’d perhaps say look at the wireless operators they’d come up to you and say ‘excuse me but but your’e a wireless operator? Have you been are you in anyone’s crew yet?’ you see and you’d say ‘no not yet’’ so ‘would you like to fly with us?’ and you’d look at them you know two officers and you’d think er well they looked all right you know and I’d say ‘oh yes I’d love to’ and that’s how fair enough and that’s you with them then they’d be looking for a bomb aimer then you see and and that’s that’s how the crews got together they never they never sort of er er wrote them all down on paper like you know pilot so so Tom Jones, Alfred Smith and all that sort of thing you know it’s er it was all so I mean you went more or less by the looks of people whether you fancied you know when these two pilots came to me two officers came to me you know they looked they looked two smart friendly sort of smiles on their faces while they talked to you and er I was pleased to join them like and that’s er operational training unit er see I mean we only did er twelve hours fifty five minutes flying in the daytime here but once we got to er once we got to operational training unit there we er we were on Wellington bombers then you see and that’s when the crew the pilot and navigator and the bomb aimer and the wireless operator and the rear gunner that’s a crew of five then that’s when we really started training then you know doing two and three hour flights and.
TJ: And how long was it then before you went onto a unit where you were actually.
RP: What what?
TJ: You were actually dropping bombs?
RP: Oh yeah well that was er that Saltby Saltby that was one OTU we were at then there’s another one the big one er the big one was at Cottesmore at Cottesmore and and Market Harborough, Market Harborough is quite close to here you see look all this flying look here you can see on here look that’s all flights er er one here Beetham a cross country flight you see in Nineteen Forty Three cross cross country er on frequent change base, three QVM’s base, a fix from M group [?] a fix a fix is er is er what they call a group you call you call this group up and you request a fix and er and er you call a central station up and ask for a fix but there’s two more stations and they they can here you as well and when they when they tell you to press your key down you press your key down and this person he takes a he takes a er er bearing on you there that one takes a bearing on you and that one takes a bearing on you and where the three of you join in the map that’s that’s nine degrees forty five something east and so many degrees so and so west and they’d send that to me lllatitude and longitude so I can give that I can give that to the navigator so he can plot it so he can plot it and he gets his position exactly where he is that’s that’s what a fix.
TJ: So when did you go operational then about what?
RP: Operational?
TJ: Yes when was that then?
RP: Yeah see there was loads of training about two years of training you see.
TJ: Yes.
RP: Yes yes. You see even at heavy conversion unit at Wigsley that’s when we trained to go from a two engine aircraft to four engine aircraft you see and that’s that’s all flying you see learning to fly the four engine aircraft the bombers the big bombers you see yeah [showing picture] that was they were all Lancasters look there you see Lancasters.
TJ: Bearing in mind the people who are going to listen to this Reg can’t see you book.
RP: Yes but er but here we are look 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe now now these were the operations look in red.
TJ: In the red yes.
RP: Now look at the flying we had to do look before even we were on operations.
TJ: Lots of.
RP: Yes.
TJ: Lots of outings?
RP: Yes yes cross country, base, Thetford, return, cross country, base, Deb Deb Denham, return, and then cross country as briefed, air sea flying, cross country as briefed, formation bombing, yeah, cross country, base, Thetford, return, cross country, base, Debden return wherever that is, cross country as briefed.
TJ: Yes but it’s the one’s in red we are interested in so when you actually flew?
RP: On the first raid?
TJ: Yes.
RP: Well it surprised me because the very first the very first raid we did we expected something a bit simple but there’s the first raid look on the twenty.
TJ: What’s the date?
RP: On the Twenty Second of November Forty Three Flying Officer Beetham, wireless op, operations Berlin the first raid we did Berlin yeah, also as well look the second the second raid we did look there that was the next night.
TJ: The very next day?
RP: Twenty Third yeah Beetham twenty seven missing ops Berlin again landed at Wittering flaps US the flaps they wouldn’t let us land because the flaps were frozen and they were afraid if we crashed if we crashed on the runway there would be another twenty odd aircraft that wouldn’t be able to land you see so they divert us then you see divert us to Wittering you see then that’s on the Twenty Third on the Twenty Six again you see there operation Berlin again that’s three Berlin raids diverted to Melbourne Melbourne there’s fifty five missing on that raid fifty five aircraft missing on that that third raid we went on you see there’s thirty two missing on the first raid there’s twenty seven missing on the second raid so fifty five on that so that’s fifty five and thirty two that’s seventy seven that’s seventy seven in it seventy seven that’s ninety seven ninety seven that’s hundred and four aircraft lost in the first three raids we went on.
TJ: How many planes would go out at one time?
RP: Um well about five hundred six hundred yeah [laughs] oh yeah yeah yeah six hundred, seven hundred even eight hundred.
TJ: So were most of your missions over Berlin?
RP: I did ten.
TJ: Ten over Berlin?
RP: Ten ten altogether yes yes.
TJ: Anywhere else?
RP: Er
TJ: Any missions anywhere else?
RP: Oh yeah er [looking through log book]I did er I did er Frankfurt, Leipzig, Berlin incendiary through starboard outboard tank that’s with another bomb dropped from another aircraft that went straight through our wing coming back.
TJ: That must have been a hairy moment?
RP: Mmm?
TJ: It must have been frightening?
RP: Well it was in a way because because er if it had gone through it went through it went through the wing and but it also went through the petrol tank but the petrol tank was empty if it gone if it there’s three tanks I one wing and there’s three tanks in the other if it had gone through the one next to it that was full of petrol well even if even if it didn’t burn we wouldn’t get home ‘cos it that was the petrol and that we were going to use to fly us back to England you see yeah so.
TJ: Did you get back okay with that hole in the wing?
RP: Not not we got back alright with it yeah because because it just tore a whole straight through the wing.
TJ: It was still flyable?
RP: It was still flyable yeah on there yeah it it yeah incendiary through starboard outboard tank there and then it was Berlin, Berlin, that was on the First January we went to Stettin, Brunswick, went to Berlin again and then Berlin we did a spoof attack on Berlin that was er just a few aircraft there you know to let them think it was a Berlin raid then I suppose the main force went somewhere else, then Berlin, Berlin again we did ten Berlin raids altogether and they were all about eight hours you see the yeah you see take off here take off here look on the Twenty Eighth is was 00.21 so that’s twenty minutes after midnight take off and we didn’t er [unclear] yeah and we didn’t land until five minutes to eight the next morning so we were flying we were flying from midnight to five minutes to eight on that raid you see and and the Berlin raid before that er we took off at er 17.17 that’s round about five o’clock in it?
TJ: Yes.
RP: Five o’clock there and er and that we were flying for eight hours fifty five minutes so that’s nine hours in it pretty well eight hours fifty five minutes and er vyou see some of them Stettin you see that was a long journey Brunswick.
TJ: And all this time you were based at Skellingthorpe right?
RP: We were based at Skellingthorpe all the time yeah yeah we did a lot of operations at Skellingthorpe yeah you see this month look February look we only did two operations in February it must have been terrible weather I’ve got the er on the on the Eighth February here we we did a searchlight searchlight cooperation and fighter affiliation exercises all training all the time er and this was here of course er on the Twelfth of February it was a fighter affiliation exercise it’s got aircraft aircraft caught fire baled out at six thousand feet that’s when I had that’s when I had to bale out yeah and er.
TJ: What about the rest of the crew?
RP: Well there was ten of us in the aircraft there was six of us managed to bale out alright but four were killed four went down with the aircraft yeah they were all killed.
TJ: Where did you come down on your parachute where did you land?
RP: We we landed we landed we landed luckily er er we were we er we were going to fly up to up to Yorkshire fly up the Humber Estuary and and go up into Yorkshire and we were going to pick a Spitfire a Spitfire was waiting for us up there and the Spitfire the Spitfire was going to er attack us it it was going to dive on us and attack us you see but we but our full crew of seven Norman[?] Beetham and his full crew then we had another pilot he was an Australian pilot and we had his two gunners with us as well so there was ten of us ten of us in the aircraft altogether and er.
TJ: So that was nothing to do with enemy fire?
RP: Oh no no.
TJ: A misadventure.
RP: No no no and er we had er we had er we flew up into Yorkshire and we saw this Spitfire the pilots could talk to each other you see they called the Spitfire up and said you know ‘were already for you you can start attacking us anytime’ and my pilot you see he was flying the aircraft and my two gunners they were in the turrets you see they were in the turrets and er and the Spitfire as it came in they had cine camera guns as well they had cameras in there so so while they were while the guns were supposedly firing they were turning a film over so they were filming they were filiming the Spitfire so when they got back oh sorry yeah yeah yeah when they got back when they got back they could show the films they could show the films and they could say to the to the gunners you know your not not allowing enough deflection ‘cos when a planes coming on like that it’s no good firing at it because by the time the bullets get there the the planes gone you got to aim in front of you all the time that’s the way that’s the way it was and er our two gunners they did they did their operation first with my pilot and then after about after about quart fifteen minutes twenty minutes something like that we called the Spitfire up and told him to hold on we told him to hold on we were changing pilots and changing the gunners and er and then of course when er when er you know that’s right its when this other pilot he went in next you see and his two gunners and they called the Spitfire up and they told the Spitfire that he could come in and commence the er the attacking like but the thing is while we were flying while we were flying er we’d been up to Yorkshire and we were coming back again and er it was lovely sunny weather but the cloud was solid solid three thousand feet below us we were at six thousand feet and all you could see was cloud all the way over there at six at three thousand feet and you see we didn’t know whether we were still over the North Sea or not because you couldn’t see it you see there so when so when er you know when this other pilot was ready he called the Spitfire okay you can carry on now commence attacking and er and the Spitfire came in to attack us and the gunner shouted out a warning you know that’s what they do they have to say ‘fighter fighter port er port stream port stream go [unclear] ‘ and the pilot put the plane in such a dive such a steep dive I’ve I’ve never been in a Lancaster that dived as steep as that and I think the strain on the wings there it must have severed one of the coolant pipes for the Rolls Royce Engines and it must have spewed like spewed petrol all over the wing and the whole wing caught fire and the wing was a mass of flames and they the levelled plane out you see and Mike Beetham like he was the senior he was the senior officer like on board and he said ‘the whole wings on fire’ he said ‘right everybody out everybody bale out’ you see well I knew my flight engineer he hadn’t even got a parachute he hadn’t brought his parachute I said ‘Don where’s your chute?’ he said ‘oh he said it’s only a training flight I’m not bothered it’s only a training flight’ he said ‘I’m not gonna I’m not bothered’ you see he was a married man as well with a little little lad as well yeah and of course we er all started baling out well when I when I got in the rear door you had to sit on the side like that and the doors only a little thing you had you had to get your head down and you had to get your head right down otherwise you’d hit the tale and I crouched down and and I I when out and the wind pushed me back in I was trying to get but I think somebody just went just went like that.
TJ: Booted you out.
RP: Booted me out I’m sure they did ‘cos it was either that or once I got outside the slipstream you know a two hundred mile an hour wind hitting you you know it’s like a but the I went out I went out slipping out all I could see all I coul see was cloud that’s all and I didn’t know I didn’t know whether the sea was there or not it was February and we hadn’t got Mae West’s we hadn’t got Mae West’s on so it meant that if I went through the clouds and came down in the in the North Sea and I was even a mile from the coast with the sea would be bitterly cold wouldn’t it in February and er I doubt I doubt that I would have survived but I went I went I was [laughs] I was pulling I was pulling the wrong handle I was pulling one of the carry handles there’s four parachute handles on the parachute one, two, three, four then there’s the that metal one that’s in the middle and I didn’t get hold of that metal one I got one of the canvas ones and I was pulling that course my chute my chute wouldn’t open and I went through the clouds and my chute still hadn’t opened and I certainly thought good god Reg and I got this metal one and gave it a pull and it’s in there isn’t it.
TJ: It’s hanging outside in the hallway yes.
RP: And of course me chute opened me chute opened and I and I looked and I thought ooh good gracious and I and I looked about a mile away from me I could see the coast I could see the coast and I was quite a height you know still and er the wing from the aircraft that came down like a big leaf and I thought I thought it was going to hit my parachute as it came down but it was coming down like a big scythe like a big leaf but that went that went by me and I and I drifted luck luckily I drifted towards the coast and I landed about three or four miles inside the coast there.
TJ: In open countryside where you?
RP: Yeah in in a lovely big field yeah and I no sooner I no sooner landed like you know and sort of picked meself up and I looked and I saw another parachute coming down but he was going a little bit farther than me and there was a spinney with trees and I saw him go through these trees and all these branches going crickle crackle crickle crackle like as he went through these branches and that was that was the other pilot [laughs] but he his memory was er he lost his memory because ‘cos when I picked myself up er an airforce van was coming across the fields towards and and they said to me ‘are you alright?’ I said ‘yes officer I’m quite alright’ I said but I said ‘but another chap here he’s just come down in that spinney down there’ and they said ‘yes we saw him come down we’re going to see how he is’ well when they brought him out his mind had gone he was saying ‘Where are we? What happened? Where’s everybody? you know ‘Where have they all gone to?’ you know and he was talking like that and we realised that it had played his memory up and er so they but luckily we landed quite near to East Kirkby Airfield I’ll show you it East Kirkby Airfield [looking through book] yeah.
TJ: So you baled out so when did you next did you have a few days off to recover?
RP: Er well I don’t think so with a thing like that I I they never sent you on leave or anything like that you didn’t you didn’t get a leave no because I think the next night the next night ooh you know what messed us up as well you see I should have been seeing Ena er.
TJ: This is your wife?
RP: Yeah.
TJ: Were you married at the time?
RP: Oh no we we hadn’t known one another that long these two ATS girls they had to be in by ten o’clock at night you see every night so when we there’s no hanky panky like by the time we came out the er pub we used to walk them back to their billets.
TJ: In Skellingthorpe?
RP: Yes then we used to get on our bikes luckily luckily their quarters were in the er were in the Lincoln City Council they they took the Lincoln City Council Offices over the RAF took those over.
TJ: What in Lincoln?
RP: In Lincoln yeah and they had they had these rooms there you know where they used to supply all the food in the Royal Army Service Corps and they used to supply all the food to the aerodrome you know Scampton, Waddington, Bardney, Fiskerton you know all the all different places there.
TJ: Yes and you went on to marry Ena what year did you get married?
RP: Er it it was it was whilst I was still in the air force yeah.
TJ: Was it after the war?
RP: No no yeah the war had finished yeah ’cos I said I said we wouldn’t get married whilst he war was on yeah yeah and I was due to come off flying and take a ground job and I went oh that’s right they when I was at er er when I was at er Silverstone I was instructor there at Silverstone and when the war was more or less coming to an end we had a chance er the people that had done tour of operations and a tour of instructional duties ‘cos I’d had a year at Silverstone training wireless operators you know flying with them there and the one’s that had done a tour of operations and a tour of instructional duties could come off flying altogether and take a ground job they they advertised it to say that er you know if you take a ground job and they said and you’d be given you’d be given a choice of posting to where you would go and when you chosen the job you wanted to do you know a ground service job you could er er er you were given a posting and I put I put Desborough the first choice that’s that’s only about four miles from Kettering, Market Harborough which is about eleven miles from Kettering and I put that second choice and I think I put Cottesmore I think as the third choice so that’s like three choices of er posting if I if I was If I came off flying and took a ground job and I I chose I chose this job er er well it was a stores job it’s to do with er to do with RAF equipment that you know that a surplus of RAF equipment as the aerodromes started to close down the re was all of the equipment left behind and it was disposing of it and and er ascertaining whether it’s whether it’s in serviceable condition or whether it can be repaired or whether whether it got to be scrapped like what to do with it it’s all the paperwork you know attached to like vans and things and tractors you know aircraft and so forth it was all the official paperwork because in the RAF er if a thing if a thing is going to be repaired there’s always a form goes in an official form to allow it you know to allow it to take place you know everything had to be done with a form official notification like you know and er this was the course this was the course that I did I chose to do because as they said ere r you know I was given a choice of posting either three miles from home or seven miles from home or perhaps twelve miles from home and I did this course it was up near Blackpool the course I had to do and er and after that after that we got married we got married you see in fact we spent our honeymoon in Blackpool because I’d spent so much time in Blackpool and I knew one or two people up in Blackpool and we spent our honeymoon in there and so when I went back there again after you know you know after that er we were told we were going to go on the North Pier at night on that particular night and we would be told we would be told where our postings were going to be where we going to be posted to you see and I thought oh crickey you know let’s hope its somewhere close near to Kettering like you know now I’ve married Freda, Ena.
TJ: Ena.
RP: Ena [laughs] Ena yeah.
TJ: For the record Freda was wife number two.
RP: Anyhow on the pier they started reading these names out it was getting dark actually as well at the time about October time and they called my name out warrant officer Payne and they looked at the list and said warrant officer Payne posted to 56 FRU FRU and I thought to myself FRU and I thought to myself that’s nothing like they said I In fully expected them to say you know one of these aerodromes so I went up after they finished I went up to the people there calling them out I said ‘this 56 FRU’ I said ‘that’s not where they said they were going to post’ I said ‘where’s that?’ they said ‘we’ve got no idea’ they’d got no idea they’d got no idea where it is you see and er so I asked they said ‘somebody one officer there when he comes he’ll know’ so I went up to him and said ‘been posted to 56 FRU’ and they said ‘FRU that’s the forward repair unit’ and I said ‘where will that be then forward repair unit?’ he said he had a look he said ‘well it’s in SEAC SEAC’ I said I said ‘what do you mean by SEAC?’ he said ‘South East Asia Command’ so I said ‘well where are they?’ he said ‘well we don’t really know we’ll send you to Karachi’ he said ‘and they’ll know when you get to Karachi’ you can’t understand it can you terrible in it.
TJ: So what happened?
RP: Mmm?
TJ: What happened?
RP: Well when I got to Karachi they said well they said it’s near Rangoon in Burma and they said ‘they’ll tell you when you get to Rangoon they’ll they’ll take you there’.
TJ: And what was your role there what job did you do?
RP: I was I was investigating all of the equipment left behind in these aerodromes you know vans, tractors, aeroplanes, typewriters, and er you know radio sets and things and and ascertaining whether they whether there fit for reply or whether they’re going to be struck off charge because with the with the RAF every piece of equipment was on paper and you couldn’t and it was and it was er like in an office work they’d perhaps have seventeen typewriters or thirteen machine guns like and they’d all have numbers and er if if one was er and they were all located in filing cabinets like you see and if you wanted to er if say one was a motorbike and it got smashed in a in a crash er the paperwork a form had to be filled in stating that it had been destroyed and that form would go into the office where there was a filing cabinet and there’d be a card in the filing cabinet connected to that to that motorbike or whatever it was and and then that form that form would be responsible for deleting that item like you know nothing could be thrown away until a form was made out and filled in you know authorising you to throw it away.
TJ: Very different weather in Burma to Skellingthorpe?
RP: Oh good gracious yes.
TJ: Was it hot and steamy?
RP: It used to be a hundred hundred degrees yeah yeah.
TJ: How long were you out there?
RP: I was out there from er before Christmas until August yes I was there for about ten months altogether yeah er they flew me to start with er I flew from Tempsford that’s in Bedfordshire somewhere there and we flew to Cairo to start with we flew to Cairo and then from Cairo we flew then to Tripoli that was lovely there I slept in a tent in the desert that night in Tripoli and I was only there for about three nights but there was a lovely big harbour there and there was no end of Italian warships you know in the harbour but all they were all sunk and all you could see was their masts sticking out the water you know there, there, there, all these warships Italian warships that had been sunk but anyhow from there they flew us then to Cairo and we stayed in the Heliopolis Palace Hotel lovely place there and er and er the next morning I got up and I looked out on the on the balcony and I could see The Pyramids.
TJ: Wow.
RP: Yeah the Heliopolis Palace Hotel yeah and and er I hadn’t had a bath for ages and there was a lovely bath there and I was just enjoying this bath and a lady came in she started cleaning the taps [laughs] when I was in the bath she didn’t take a bit of notice of me [laughs] it’s terrible in it [laughs] yeah amazing isn’t it and then of course we went out then to see Cairo and er I didn’t fancy that at all I’d never ever want to go there the kids the kids because we were in RAF uniform and the kids had got a a jam jar a pound jam jar and it was half full of er black black shoe polish liquid shoe polish black and they’d and they’d come on you saying ‘shoeshine pal shoeshine boy’ you know and in other words if they didn’t give them something they’d throw this pot of black shoe polish over you over your uniform yeah but luckily we were armed we had revolvers yeah and we just we just fetched the revolver out and just cocked it and said ‘you throw that and your dead we’ll shoot you’ we said that to them and I think we would have done [laughs] yeah for you to get a revolver out and point it revolvr ‘we’ll shoot you if you throw it’ yeah yeah amazing [laughs].
TJ: So at the end of your time in Burma you came back to where?
RP: Er well I came back to er a place near near Blackpool a demob centre and er and er I was I was issued with a demob suit and paid you know owed me a lot of money ‘cos I was a month on the boat coming back I was thirty days on the boat coming back from Rangoon and that’s a month’s pay you see there yeah and I think I was still paid for about another month or two months.
TJ: Did you choose to come out or would you have liked to have stayed in?
RP: If if er if I hadn’t have been married I think I wouldn’t have minded staying in ‘cos Mike Beetham you see he stayed in.
TJ: Yes he’s still in.
RP: Yeah yeah he wanted me he wanted me to stay with him because er er after after the end of the war he took a squadron of Lancasters to America on a goodwill tour and er and I’ve seen I’ve seen some of the film that er I can’t think where I’ve seen it I’ve seen some of the film that was shown that was taken like when they were in there they even went to places like Hollywood and he sent me a photograph of himself in I think in Hollywood and he’d got his arm round I think Bette Davis I think [laughs] something like that you know I saw this photograph of him with his arm round her so he I mean you know he did well that way he er but he’s er at the squadron reunions we used to see him regularly you know and also at the Bomber Command reunions we used to see him there.
TJ: How did you feel after the war about the way that the Bomber Command wasn’t recognised?
RP: Er
TJ: Did it were you upset about it were you really aware of it?
RP: What leaving it do you mean leaving?
TJ: No the way that the Bomber Command wasn’t recognised in any speeches.
RP: Oh that yeah.
TJ: And Bomber Harris wasn’t knighted with everybody else did that really strike a chord with you.
RP: Well I we all thought it was a disgust you know and not allowing us this not allowing us that you know we thought you know but the thing is you know you see in the forces your under strict your under strict rules all the time and I think you got so used to er not being able to do this not being able to do that you know I mean you weren’t allowed on an RAF aerodrome to walk about without a hat on you know and I mean if you if you walked across at an airfield where there was huts and things and you hadn’t got a hat on an RAF policeman would put you on a charge straight away you’d be improperly dressed you see.
TJ: So this centre they hope to build just outside Lincoln I mean it’s been a long time coming hasn’t it and it seems a shame it wasn’t done a long time ago why do you feel have you got any theories about why Bomber Command wasn’t recognised as Fighter Command was and all the other services have you got any thoughts on why?
RP: Well not really because because for about for about ten years I was I was saddled with the fifty and sixty one squadron memorial at Birchwood at Skellingthorpe I mean for about two or three years we were collecting money for that you see and we were having to go having to go to Lincoln about ooh at least once a month and er and meet up with the Lincoln City Council people because they helped us a lot with it you know with the er we we used to have a meeting ourselves in the morning just the about four us but mostly the people responsible for raising the money for it we had to raise twenty seven thousand pound for that you see.
TJ: So what was your first job were you out of work for very long after you had demobbed?
RP: Er well after the no no not I I er er when I got when I got demobbed and came home you see I I had about two months leave due to me you see because being in Burma being in Burma we didn’t get any leave at all there I mean I I think I spent six months there without any leave so I think when when I got when I actually got demobbed and you know and given a demob suit and all that sort of thing I was given you know about a month’s backpay and then probably then probably another month’s you perhaps wasn’t going to be demobbed for another month so therefore I was given another month’s backpay.
TJ: So you had time to look around for some work?
RP: Oh yeah when I when I came back home yeah.
TJ: What did you do?
RP: I went I went in er engineering engineering factory and took up engineering.
TJ: Did you stay in that field for the rest of your working life?
RP: Pretty well yeah because er er I it was my my brother he worked he got to work in this engineering factory it was called Timpsons and they made er they made swings and roundabouts and things for parks and so forth and jazzes[?] and all that sort of thing there but er but er I went I went to work there for a short while and learning a bit about engineering learning to work on drilling machines and lathes but er then the pair of us we were offered a better job at a firm only about two streets away from it and they made shoe shoe machinery you know er stitching machine and er sewing machines you know and presses and all that for boot and shoe manufacture and we both went to work there because they said they would pay us more money than what we were given at this other place you see.
TJ: Did you find it easy to readjust to civilian life did you have any dark days after the war you know where you know thought a lot about things?
RP: Yeah er well not really I suppose I mean in the forces you had such a variation of different jobs to do you know that er.
TJ: So you settled back down quite well?
RP: Oh yeah.
TJ: And you got married after you were demobbed did you?
RP: No I I got I got married because they because they said you know er
TJ: So you got married before you went to Burma?
RP: Oh yeah because you see they said that er you get you get you’ll be given a ground job that you wanted to do and you’d be given a posting as near home as you require and they gave you a choice of three different choices.
TJ: So there’s poor Ena married and you were off in Burma?
RP: That’s right yes she was still in the ATS.
TJ: Yeah so you had you went on how many children did you have?
RP: Mmm?
TJ: How many children children?
RP: Me I only had David David one son that’s all.
TJ: When was he born?
RP: Well about Eighty Eight no wait a minute no wait a minute.
TJ: How old is he?
RP: Do you know he’s he’s about seventy now he was born he was born about Forty Four about Forty Six only about two years you see after we were married yes.
TJ: Yes.
RP: Yes but that’s just only one son that’s all yes.
TJ: Okay so.
RP: Oh he he he’s never been never been really interested in my RAF flying days till this last two or three years but now now he loves to come up to our reunions with us you know at Skellingthorpe yeah he loves to come up there.
TJ: You’re a great artist Reg you’ve shown me a lot of pictures here today that you’ve done some of them are buildings or landscapes and quite a few of them are of planes and such like is this something you have been doing all your adult life or something fairly recent?
RP: I was I was I did quite well at school with art I never had any trouble with passing exams and things at school with art I did a lot of artwork at school yeah.
TJ: Yes and have you when did the painting start?
RP: When?
TJ: When did you start painting these wonderful pictures?
RP: Oh right it it it must be twenty years ago.
TJ: Oh so that’s fairly recent actually in the scheme of things.
RP: I did a lot of watercolours.
TJ: So well look you’ve just handed me a great lot of watercolours well I’ll certainly have a look at those but I’d just like to say thank you very much for sharing your memories.
RP: Yes.
TJ: With us today and it’s been an honour and privilege to meet you thank you very much.
RP: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Reg Payne. One
Creator
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Tina James
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-03
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Sound
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APayneR150703
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Jackie Simpson
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
Description
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Reg Payne was born in Kettering, he left school at fourteen and worked for the British Legion. He volunteered for the RAF when he was seventeen and a half and trained as a wireless operator and air gunner. He describes his training learning Morse Code, gunnery practice, and how the crew were chosen, before taking part in operations over Germany where on one occasion a bomb dropped from another aircraft straight through his aircraft's wing. On another occasion whilst on a training exercise his aircraft caught fire and the crew had to bale out sadly four crew were killed. He met his first wife Ena whilst at RAF Skellingthorpe and they married shortly before the end of the war prior to him being posted to 56 Forward Repair Unit in South East Asia Command and sent to Burma. After the war he worked in an engineering factory and still resides in Kettering where he enjoys painting watercolours.
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01:15:18 audio recording
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bomb struck
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
Dominie
Lancaster
love and romance
memorial
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
physical training
Proctor
RAF North Coates
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/636/8906/PRoyallG1501.2.jpg
0a43597407d34fdf30e7fa082c141640
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/636/8906/ARoyallG150720.1.mp3
8866f25d80be3654ab1a04cf8bfee066
Dublin Core
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Title
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Royall, George
G Royall
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Royall, G
Description
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46 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer George Royall (1801494 Royal Air Force) his flying log book, photographs, correspondence, course notes, examinations, newspapers and parts of magazines. He served as a bomb aimer on 166 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Royall and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2015-07-20
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GC: OK, good afternoon. This is Gemma Clapton on behalf of International Bomber Command. I am here with Warrant Officer George Royall and we are going to discuss his role during the war and anything else he would like to tell me. George, please?
GR: OK. Well I’ll start from the time when I volunteered to join the RAF and I wanted to go into air crew and this meant that I had to go up to London and have all the tests for mathematics and educational tests and then it went on to physical tests to see if you would pass OK from the health point of view, and then an interview with a number of officers to find out what your interests were, what you wanted to do in the Air Force, and air crew and like most people the first thing I wanted to do was be a pilot. They decided that they‘d have to check. I had to sit with my back to wall and put my legs out on the floor and there in front of me about a foot away was a brass bar and as my feet didn’t reach that distance I was not able to be considered as a pilot. They then looked at the results of the tests that I’d done and the medical and the educational side and decided they could offer me a post as — at that time it was a plural (?). So I accepted that. I was very keen to get into the Air Force and they said I’d have to wait a couple of months so I had a little badge to say I was on deferred service so that there were no white feathers coming my way while I’m waiting and then in due course I received my papers to say to report to London to start training as air crew. I was err, there two or three weeks, again being kitted out with uniform and various other bits and pieces and a few inoculations and some drill from the sergeants to see if they could smarten us up a bit so that we could walk smartly in our uniforms and then I was then posted to ITW which is Initial Training Wing test so where you do your navigation and all that what was required on that side, mathematics again, studying the stars and it takes about three months, all we were doing was navigation and map reading and the physical testing that you have to do and um, that was quite interesting because I was at Stratford on Avon was my ITW and err, the people there were brilliant and also it was the home of the, Stratford on Avon had their big theatre there which they did all the plays by Shakespeare and that, we were allowed to go in as servicemen and have the best seats in the house for one and sixpence. They used to do three plays a week so they were doing one play that night, forgetting the play they did the night before and learning the play they were going to do the next night and it was fantastic and I learned more Shakespeare than I’d ever learned in school. During this time of course we were doing quite a lot of our tests and running around Stratford getting fit. We used to have to do a five mile walk every morning before breakfast and then we would go back to the classrooms and start doing the physical work there, and it was a quite interesting period. There were twenty eight of us on the course and at the end of that time we then were waiting for our postings as the next step. This all took quite a bit of time because there were lot of people volunteering for air crew and there were a number of ah, people in front of us waiting for their turns and so on and so it took some time between, probably a month or six weeks before you could get on to the next course and from then I went down to, I was posted down to Brighton. That was quite an interesting period of time because there were two hotels that were used by the Air Force at the time, one was the Metropole Hotel and the other one was called the Grand Hotel. The Metropole was the one I was in, most of the British servicemen went to the Metropole but the Grand had mostly Polish volunteers that were going through the Air Force routine. A lot of them had escaped or found their way through Germany ahh, to England and were going to move on into the service from there. At that particular time I did have a cold and needed to go into the hospital for a while and by the time I came out from the, that, my other twenty eight, or twenty other members had already been posted so err, Heaton Park which is near Manchester on their way to the next course and I was struggling to try and catch up with them by labouring everybody from the officers right to go after them and I was about three weeks before I could get up to Heaton Park and by the time that happened they’d already moved on. They’d gone to um, I think it was — moved on to Blackpool I think it was they’d gone to there. And so by the time I got to Heaton Park I then had to wait until another two weeks to try and catch them up and I got to Blackpool they’d moved on and been posted to their training place for their wings tests err, and that was it. They went to Canada. These were the air schools [unclear] mainly from either Canada or they did some in America and South Africa and I got to Blackpool and was waiting for my posting to come up. They called out my name and I went to South Africa which was a long way away from where the other people had gone. I was happy because I preferred the warmer countries rather than Canada so I was quite happy and so my next move then was to, the posting, was to Liverpool with all our packs. I had three kitbags and so I packed both back packs and I had to walk from Liverpool Station to the docks to where I picked up the troop ship that was going to take me South Africa and there was quite a lot going on there because they were going to go in, in convoy and so there was naval ships all getting ready to usher us round and so for three days we were just swinging at anchor. Each time we looked out of the portholes of the ship we thought we were at sea but we’d only swung round looking at the main part of the Liverpool Estuary err, but on the third day we then set sail out towards South Africa, and this was a very interesting journey. It took us approximately six weeks travelling and we were mothered by naval rigs and cruisers floating around us every time there was the risk of submarines in the area they would disappear off looking for the submarines while we sailed slowly, moved on because we had ordinary ships with us as well as our ships. There was another troop ship with us and um, we were only doing I suppose about ten knots. We could only go as fast as the slowest ships that was in the convoy which was some old type ships that we were taking various routes backwards and forwards to England and going back and getting some more from wherever. So then we started our trip and we went, we went round, we didn’t go through the um, — can I stop?
GC: Yes. [pause]. OK.
GR: We were not going to go through the Suez Canal we were gonna go round by the Cape so it was a much further journey and also, to try and avoid the submarines that kept appearing in the area, knowing that the troopships were about, we had to go, first of all we steamed North and almost into Iceland before we started to turn to go to the west and then we went west and as UT navigators and that, we were plotting our course and working out the mileage, or being told the mileage the ship had done each day and we realised that we’d gone oh, well north and could have been approaching Canada or American shores before we started to turn south and went south for some weeks before we then eventually went round to Cape Horn and first of all, and then err, before we got to the Cape and we came past [pause] it was Freetown we came down to that side of the East Coast down past Freetown and we pulled into Freetown and the sights were fantastic, the colours, greenery, it was beautiful and blue seas. There were little boats floating about with the Navy that were posted in Freetown and there were WAAFs in their white uniforms and the sailors in their whites, and it was a fantastic sight. Um, people were coming out from the [unclear] to sell their wares and throwing things up to the decks for us to buy, apples and bananas and all that type of thing. We stayed in there overnight, it was very, very hot and we were wearing our khaki [unclear] and had to pull our sleeves down and make sure we didn’t have our shorts on, had our long trousers on, ah, khaki because of the mosquitoes. Very uncomfortable from that point of view, really hot. And then um, the next day we set sail again to carry on and go round to Durban, called in at Durban and, oh before we entered, we stopped at um, the one before, Capetown and a lot of the troops that were on board, they got off at Capetown, I think they were Palestine Police. Got off at Capetown and we then continued the next day on to Durban where we were taken off the ship because the ship was then going on to um, up towards India, in that direction, with troops going further. Ahh, but we came off at Durban and we were put into, a whole group of us, put into a brick buildings. There were no doors or windows so there was plenty of air through and there was — a lot insects all over the place, in the roof and everywhere there was things flying about where we were stopping. It was a bit uncomfortable. We had bunks, metal bunks and err, our three biscuits for our mattress and it held about ooh, thirty or forty of us in this place and it wasn’t very comfortable. But on the wall at the back where my headboard was, there was a Praying Mantis sitting there waiting for any insects to come flying his way, quite interesting. Ugly looking thing it was and so that was that part of the thing. And um, we were gonna to be there for some time as our next move was to be to the air school where would start our flying. But during this time while we were waiting all we had to do was report for duty first thing in the morning and um, some of us were put on fatigues in the mornings, peeling potatoes and things like that and then the rest of the day we were free. We didn’t have to report again until the next morning and so you could wander all over that part of South Africa where the natives lived and into their huts and where they were and um, we were having quite a good time, it was some — interesting. Some were growing bananas and they had quite a lot of things going on like that and I could reach out from where I was and pick bananas as I wanted and it was a very enjoyable period of time. The people there were marvellous, mostly they were people who had left England and went out to South Africa to live and were having their families out there. Some of them had been out there some ten or fifteen years. So it was quite err, and they were quite good to us, took us, if we were walking along the road anywhere cars would come along and stop and ask if we wanted the rest of the day out. They would drive us down to the sea, [unclear] and we’d go swimming, It was a marvellous country really thoroughly enjoyed it. The only drawback was there was the apartheid that was going where the South Africans themselves, um, Boers they were and they were looking after the black people and they segregated blacks and white people and there was a group they called ah, coloureds, the half castes, where black people had married into the white people and there was another sort of generation type of problem going on. So there were problems in that sense but err, for us out there it was quite an enjoyable period of time. [pause] The Boers used to look after the, a lot of the black men were prisoners because they only had to look at a white woman and they’d be accused of raping them and it didn’t take much for them to accuse a black man to end up in prison and they were, while they were in prison they came out every day, they came out and marched in chain gangs through the town and at various places they’d unhook some of these prisoners and they would go and then they would be the workers for the people in that particular house. They would look after the children or do the cooking or cleaning and things like that, they’d move on. And then during [unclear] in that way their houses at the end of the day they’d all be collected, chained up and marched back to prison again, which was not a very pleasant sight. It was part of South Africa which, which was err, a bit disturbing. Of course later on then, nowadays they got rid of the apartheid fortunately, but at that time it was very rampant. And then from then I then got posted to the air school, 48 Air School and we started our flying and we were flying in Ansons aircraft that was mostly used. Ahh, mostly they went to places like South Africa ‘cos you could fly every day, there was no problem weather-wise and there was no Germans anywhere near by so there was nothing to put us off from going up flying every day. So we used to do our navigation and trips and practising air gunnery and all these sort of things and do our ground course as well because we had to learn all about the stars and navigation using, by using the stars as a means of finding a fix and um, [pause] we would do all the ground work that was necessary and be taking our exams from time to time err, until such time as we sat the final exam and if we passed that we then got our wings, which was now as an air bomber because they split the observer trade into two because there was so much problems with earlier bombs not going into Germany, that they weren’t getting close to their targets or they were dropping their bombs miles away from their target so they decided they needed more technical help and needed more staff to operate things like H2S and G and the navigator was left to do the plotting on to the ground course map the course and pass the information to the pilot and the bomb aimer used to do the map reading, operate the G and H2S and the navigator could then do his work easier, a bit easier, with all the calculations because he used to have to plot a fix every six minutes which was [laughter] a pretty horrendous task really and they’d keep changing and working out from the wind directions and from the air speed and a lot of information was being fed to the navigator, some from the pilot giving him speeds and air speeds and the bomb aimer would be passing the information as to when he got fixes across rivers or along the coast line and times of where exactly and accurately put on the navigators plot so he could actually check he was on the course correctly, and um in the event of — We then got our wings and then ready to return back to England but even that was a bit of a problem, there was twenty of us on the course and they decided that there would be, I think it was five, five going back to England and the rest was going to go up to North Africa as they had sufficient on a course so they could be able to be bomb aimers in North Africa where they were going to be up, going to Tobruk where there were British people up, up there. The Germans barricaded them in and the Americans were flying bombing missions trying to bomb the German tanks and they were using pattern bombing and they had about twenty bombers flying over the, at fairly low level and they had a master bomber in the first aircraft and as they, out of the bombers, the bomb aimers they were just going up there not with very much experience they would be flying in the other aircraft and when the master bomber got to the right position, as they were over the top of the German tanks, he would drop the bombs on his and everybody else would drop their bombs so they were plastering the German tanks with bombers from quite low level and it didn’t need a lot of navigation, they just followed the master bomber. So that’s why they went and left five of us to come back to England, which they want us to do that we decided that it, would be a draw, there’d be five crosses in a hat, for us to, those who got the cross would be ones that came back to England. They also found that there were three members of the, who were on the course that were married, and they were automatically going to be sent home, although they’d only got married a week before they got the troop ship to go out, so it wasn’t a lot different to us. So there were only two crosses that were going to be counted. So there were two crosses left in the hat and we just took turns to see who got the cross and I thought well, I went up first because I thought the crosses were in there. If I wait somebody else would get up so I’ll go first and if I fish about I might find it and I did, I was lucky I got a cross and one other man got a cross and that was my passport back home. So that was my, and err, I think we waited about three weeks for the ship to take us back, this time it was a Dutch ship, it was the, it was, we were just going to go back without any cover from the navy at all because it was a ship that could do twenty odd knots and we just came straight back to England. The high speed and was back home after, it took us about three weeks, just under three weeks to go back to England instead of the six weeks it took us going out. So that was my trip to South Africa.
GC: OK, tell me a little bit about station life here, where you were stationed here in England.
GR: Ah, well. Well first of all when I came back from South Africa I had to go to OTU, an operation unit, there was more training to do there and then we went to, that was in North Wales on Anglesey and from there I went to OTU which was just outside, that was at, oh I can’t remember the name of that place now, but anyway that was a conversion unit where we were doing [unclear] flying and on um, that is before we went to the conversion unit. When I got there we went on to, first of all it was ah, we didn’t go on to a Lancaster straight away, there was a another aircraft but we only did a couple of training trips on that when they decided we would go to Kirmington 166 Squadron and they were Lancasters so our conversion was actually on Lancasters. The crew, first of all, on the Abingdon was the OTU was where we actually got crewed up and after doing training and, there we went into a big hangar where pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, radio operators they were all mixed, all there with all the results of the air tests pinned up around the wall and you just wandered around looking at names and associating the information with the people and you tried to get yourself into a crew by saying to, in my case, a pilot came up to me and said ‘have you got a crew yet?’ I said ‘no’, he said ‘would you like to become a member of my crew?’ so I said ‘yes’. He’d already picked a navigator that he’d looked at the results and he was happy with and then we found ourselves a radio operator, a wireless operator so that was the four of us there and so that was the start of our crew and then we were joined by two gunners that had been told which crews they were going to. They didn’t get much choice in the matter as far as I could see but they were attached to ours. That brought us up to six of us [unclear] and then we needed a, I think, and then when we got to, later on, we got a flight engineer joined us so we then became a crew of seven on the Lancasters and we were doing our training to get used to the Lancasters, I think that lasted, [pause] a few weeks and we were then posted to 166 Squadron at Kirmington which was just outside, not far away from Grimsby. Does that answer your question?
GC: Is there a trip or a sortie that sticks in your mind?
GR: A trip?
GC: A sortie?
GR: Oh when I was ops?
GC: Yes.
GR: Ah, well there was a couple. One was when I went to Kiel and that was [pause] I think most of the trips we were doing was to take, make the Germans, put, take their aircraft away from the Russians because Russian areas was where they were having problems, as you know, towards the end of the war, ah and Kiel was well defended, there was quite a lot of flak and also crossing the coast there were guns going off there quite a lot. There were quite a few fighters about and that was where the last pocket battleship was and by the time we got there it was already burning. The bombers in front of us had dropped bombs on to it and it was blown on its side and we were going in dropping bombs as well and to make sure that that wouldn’t be any good at all. That was the last pocket battleship. That was quite a hectic night that night and when we came from there the navigator took us on a quick route out to come back home and that was about an eight hour journey altogether. So that was that one and the other one was um, I think it was, I’m not sure if it was a Nuremberg one but there was one other trip in which we got coned in searchlights. As you fly in to the target area you can see, as a bomb aimer, you’re on the nose, you can see all the flak which is coming up over the target area and it’s about err, it looks a mile thick and there’s twinkling lights all the time, the shells bursting and you can see that from at least eight minutes before you get there and you know you’ve got to fly through all that flak before you can start dropping the bombs etc and that was while we were flying through we got searchlights again, suddenly there were searchlights and we were waving about and we were coned by the master searchlight, he got on to us. Once the master gets you all the searchlights come on to you. Every searchlight that was on focussed on that aircraft and that happened to be us this time which was very scary. You can’t see it’s so, absolutely brilliant [emphasis] light and obviously the pilot was then doing the corkscrewing and so diving down and pulling out at the bottom of the dive and back up again in the opposite direction and back down again to try and get out of the searchlights. While you’re doing that the actual G Force on you was clamping you to the side of the aircraft or the floor, wherever you are, and you can’t move, you can’t even think straight. You can’t see, expecting the shells, suddenly expecting to be blown apart because once you’re coned there’s very little chance of getting out. But err, this particular time, our pilot was brilliant and he did eventually escape the coning. Took us about three or four minutes before we got back in the darkness again and breathe again and move again which was about one of the worst experiences that I had. [pause] Certainly not recommended. [pause]
GC: Tell me a little bit about life actually at the station. What was it like to see your station when you came home?
GR: [sighs] Well, [pause] you’re a bit exhausted and as we used to fly in towards Grimsby and coming in to the squadron there was Kirmington Church – had a green spire, you could see that. It was a beautiful sight when you see that as you’re coming in. You get that feeling of peace coming over you, at last you can relax and the other thing I noticed, it was the time of year, on top of the hill where we were there had been peas grown and they’d all been cleared off and bare ground sort of really and it was a mass of poppies the whole field was a mass of poppies and you could see that from miles away, see that poppy and you could see both the poppies and the green spire of Kirmington. It was a beautiful welcome back home and it was lovely I enjoyed that very much, and err, that was great. And then once we’d landed and went to debriefing um, you could then have your eggs and bacon and then you were free and you could go round to your bed. Our bed was in the woods at the bottom of the hill at Kirmington and there were about three crews in this Nissen hut. There were no facilities there, no toilets or any of that sort of thing, just a bare Nissen hut. I used to walk through the woods up to what was the, there was a big arch there on top of the hill and err, [pause] oh crikey, I can’t think of the name of the — It was an arch dedicated to the man that owned all the ground where the farmers were renting out their farms and I think he was a lord or something like that, anyway, through this arch I used to walk through and sit down on, just outside of the arch and you could look at and down to the bottom of the hill on the other side of the arch there was a big lake. I used to sit and look at the lake and think of the peace, the change. Nothing, no sound, nothing, just sit there looking into the lake and trying to get your breath back from where you’d been and it was a complete change to sit thinking. It was really marvellous sight and it lived in my mind, as it does today. I can always see that arch and the lake and the peace, yes. They were periods that I remember very much. (sound of cutlery on china)
GC: How about family, how did they go through the war? Were you married?
GR: Ah, well I got, yes, I’m just, getting confused. I was married while I was at Kirmington, yes and my wife used to come up to stay. She used to stay in the village just by the airfield and part of the time while I was doing the ops she was there while I was on the squadron and um, she came up later on and she stayed with some people in the local village and they were very good. We had a marvellous time with them. They had two children and I used to go and stay there some nights and yeah they were brilliant. In fact, when the war ended I used to go back there with my wife and we used to, went back there for years and years until he, the man finally died, ‘cos he was an older man and then we still kept in contact with the children as they grew up and err, we made a lot, quite a lot of friends in that village.
GC: How about the Lancaster? You say you flew the Lancaster. How was she as a plane, what was she like to be in?
GR: What was the first —
GC: The Lancaster, what was the Lancaster like to fly in?
GR: Oh, it was marvellous, it was the greatest aircraft I’d ever been in and err, yeah it brings tears to your eye when you even hear it today. Last year I went back to Kirmington and I visited the squadron and one or two squadrons round about and I went to Bomber Command’s Lancaster and I went to the Kirton Lin — is it, Kirton?
GC: Kirkby?
GR: Pardon?
GC: East Kirkby?
GR: East Kirkby, that’s right. They have the Lancasters there which um, I had a ride in the bomb nose round on the peri-track and I was able to go right up into the nose and I went back seventy years in my mind as we were going round in that and it was fantastic. The sounds is beautiful. I’ve got a photograph on the wall there of my visit and I was entertained real royally by the people at Kirton (sic) and yes it was great and then I went to where the [pause] the one and only Lancaster, the flying Lancaster. I went back there and I got into the nose there. They took me round the Lancaster there, it was another great experience.
GC: So, good memories?
GR: Oh yes. I was talking to the pilot and he was asking me how the Lancaster behaved when we did the, when we got caught in the [pause] hmm.
GC: Spotlight?
GR: Ahh, goes out of my mind. At ninety three it’s most difficult to remember the words but err, [long pause]. When we did the corkscrewing, that’s the word I’m trying to think of. When the aircraft does a corkscrew he wanted to know how the Lancaster stood up to it. Of course with their Lancaster they can’t do that they can only fly gently and err, with our one when we were in the corkscrew it behaved absolutely brilliantly. It took all the strain and it was, it winged and waggled about it a bit but there were no cricks or cracks or anything. It was, it was a lifesaver, it was brilliant and we had a great pilot. He’d been in Canada for two years before he came to us and he’d been training pilots and he decided he wanted some action and by the time he came back to England that’s when he managed to join in, pick his crew and that’s when I joined with him and um, it was him that saved our lives really because his piloting was fantastic and the aircraft behaved absolutely brilliant.
GC: I know air crews and ground crews were very protective of their planes. Did you ever bring one home not in one piece? Did you ever get damaged?
GR: Well, not really damaged but our crew, every time we landed they went over it and it was their [emphasis] aircraft, we only borrowed it as far as they were concerned and they really loved that and they looked at every mark. And we went back one time and we thought we had a hole blown in the side of the aircraft or something because we’d got thrown out of the sky on the way back as if we’d really been hit and I was sent by the pilot back down the plane to look for the damage and I was going very carefully ‘cos I was expecting a great big hole in the aircraft and err, I couldn’t find anything and came back and reported all seemed to be OK. When we got back to the ground crew we reported that we’d been hit, somewhere, but err, and it had been quite severe because it had taken the stick away from the pilot. He had to let go, it was taken out of his hand by the pressure. And, um, the next morning when we came back to the squadron again they said they’d been over the aircraft and there was no real damage except for a piece of shrapnel had lodged in the fins, the elevator of the aircraft and it had jammed in and it forced the elevator which was then [unclear] controls and taken the stick away from the pilot for that few seconds. It was just one bit of flak and it hit that bit of the aircraft. It was still lodged in there, they found the bit of flak as well. So that was the only time they really got close to us that we knew about.
GC: How about at the end of the war? What was your, what did you do at the end once sorties had been finished?
GR: Well when the war finished that was, the squadron formed up and they told us that the war had now ended and that the various countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, they wanted their men back and they were taken off the squadron that very minute. They disappeared from the group and from rest of the people were left. So my pilot went back to Canada because he’d married a Canadian girl while he was out there. The rear gunner was an Australian, he disappeared um, so our crew was broken up, and all the crews had various members of the Commonwealth who were taken away around that time and shipped off back to their home countries, which, at such a speed that we didn’t have time to say goodbye, what’s your name and address because as crews we never met their relatives or their parents or whatever. When we had leave we all went to our own families and then met back again when we came and that — we didn’t socialise apart from as a crew. So we didn’t know one another, we didn’t know where they lived, we weren’t able to contact those. The only people we were able to contact were those that were still left on the squadron, which was rather a shame. I never did hear from my pilot again or the rear gunner. When they died, if they died, I never did know, which was a real sadness to me. But then, after they’d gone what was left were then the various members of the crews, we made into other crews, we made a crew and I went with a Squadron Leader [unclear], his crew must have all been Canadians because he lost his crew completely so he had some, [unclear] crew which was myself and a radio operator and a navigator and we had some, I think we had a couple of gunners as well from somewhere else that made a proper crew and then we were sent on various missions. We did some training together to become a crew and we were sent to places like, we used to fly to Italy and we were fetching back people that had been waiting for their demob numbers to come up such as they come from North Africa into Italy and were in the war fighting in Italy and when the war finished they were just left there waiting for their demob. They never got home until they were demobbed err, unless their leave period came up and then we used to pick them up and bring them back for their leave and take them back again after the leave had finished. They were both WRNS and WAAFs and, as well as the airmen, some airmen who had been released from concentration camps, they’d come back. And so any people like that were put into the Lancasters to bring home as quickly as they could. The Lancaster had white circles painted on the floor and they were about a foot diameter and that was about all the space these people had while we brought them back. They had to stand and hold on to the side of the aircraft all packed in together so we could get as many people in as possible, except that if they were WRNS or WAAFS I think we normally did separate the ladies from the men on the trips, but I used to get, if it was WAAFS or WRNS on board I could generally get two of them in the nose lying on cushions on the way back, that was more pleasant for them and for me. The rest of them just had to sit where they could in the aircraft but err, we would only fly at about 2000 ft when we bringing a load of people back because they wouldn’t have parachutes and we didn’t have parachutes either so it was thought best that we all went without parachutes just in case of accidents and we might be able to land if we weren’t flying at too high a height. So that was our, we carried on doing that until the squadron closed down and I was posted to Kenley waiting for my demob.
GC: I think finally do you have one enduring memory, one emotion from your time?
GR: [pause] One emotion. Well my main emotion was the fact that I was really upset at the way that the squadron was split up and broken up without any thought whatsoever about comradeship that had been formed during our time and, as if, you know, it really hurt me and I think it upset most of the air crew people the way that Bomber Command was discarded for political reasons. That was my main emotion.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with George Royall
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Gemma Clapton
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-20
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Sound
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ARoyallG150720, PRoyallG1501
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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01:02:46 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
George volunteered to be a pilot but settled for Air Observer. He talks about his selection and training in London and then in Stratford-upon-Avon, where enjoyed the theatre and how, at Brighton, illness separated him from the rest of the course. So, while they went to Canada for their flying training, he went to South Africa.
George sailed from Liverpool to Freetown, where he enjoyed seeing sailors and WAAFs in their whites, the green landscape and the locals selling their wares. He had some free time in Durban and received great hospitality from expats but felt embarrassed by apartheid. He began flying at No. 48 Air School and here his trade changed from air observer to air bomber, so he describes the navigational support role played by air bombers. He received his brevet and while 20 of his course were sent to North Africa, he and four others returned to England. George says he went to an OCU in North Wales and then describes crewing up, going onto Lancasters and being posted to 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington.
While at Kirmington George married and his wife would come to visit, staying with a local family and making life-long friends.
George describes two memorable operations: Kiel, where he saw a Lancaster hit by falling bombs and Nuremberg, where his aircraft was coned by searchlights. He recalls how, on returning to Kirmington, the sight of the village church and a field of poppies was a beautiful welcome home and that he used to climb a hill near his billet to relax and look at the view.
At the end of the war George flew several trips on Op. DODGE and says that they flew at 2,000 feet because the passengers had no parachutes and so the aircrew did not carry them either. He also describes a visit to East Kirkby, where he was made to feel very welcome. He was asked what it was like to fly in the Lancaster and how it stood up to corkscrewing.
Sadly, George's lasting emotion of his service is of how quickly the closely-bonded crews were split up and sent back to their home countries at the war's end, often without time to exchange addresses or even say goodbye.
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Nuremberg
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Abingdon
England--Lincolnshire
England--Grimsby
England--Warwickshire
England--Stratford-upon-Avon
Sierra Leone
Sierra Leone--Freetown
South Africa
South Africa--Durban
South Africa--Port Elizabeth
Wales
Wales--Anglesey
Contributor
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Andy Fitter
166 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
coping mechanism
crewing up
entertainment
fear
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Lancaster
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Nissen hut
observer
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Kirmington
searchlight
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/639/8909/AShepherdFH150525.1.mp3
031fe9ea01628bf8d20dbf0d41146e6a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Shepherd, Frederick Harold
F H Shepherd
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Shepherd, FH
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frederick Harold Shepherd (b. 1921, 152660 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 2018 and 15 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-05-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre the interviewer is Claire Bennett the interviewee is Mr. Frederick Shepherd, the interview is taking place at Mr. Shepherd’s home near Kings Lynn on 25th May 2015.
CB: Good Morning Frederick
AS: Good Morning
CB: Perhaps you could start by saying your date and place of birth please
FS: The date of my birth was 8th March 1921 and I was born at Saint Mary’s Hospital in Manchester
CB: Do you remember very much of your early life
FS: That’s either very detailed or very shallow, I was, put it this way, I was the first child of my mother and father, and my next brother, Douglas, was born in 1926, and my second brother, Ronald was born in 1934, at the moment all my family have departed this world so I am the only one left in the Shepherd family.
CB: And your early life until you joined the air
FS: I was schooled in Manchester and on leaving school I joined the company of South American Shipping Association and stayed with them until I went to the Air Force when I was twenty years of age.
CB: What made you join the Air Force
FS: Er, basic inclination was to fly and in that connection I applied to join the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm but I was assured that entry into the Fleet Air Arm was via the Royal Marines, and no one would give me any indication of the gap period between joining and possibly being transferred to the Naval Airforce so I immediately applied to join the Royal Airforce.
CB: And this would have been 1941 something like that
FS: 1941 yes
CB: So where was your first posting to
FS: Ah, I need to qualify that a little bit, I was accepted by the Royal Air Force, er, took physical and mental examinations at Cardington, er, was sent home on deferred entry and I went to Manchester and Salford University for extra schooling on mathematics, geometry, Royal Air Force Law and the Morse Code technique, and that covered the period of time ‘twixt me being accepted and actually being invited to join in London at my, at um er, for the entrance into the Royal Air Force proper.
CB: How long would that have taken about
FS: Twelve months, the training took twelve months
CB: Right, and then
FS: I went into London for initial training, and then to Newquay for what they called ITW that was the initial training wing, before being selected to go into flying which I did immediately I left Newquay I went into basic flying at place called Clyffe Pypard which is in Wiltshire. I’m curious by the by are we being recorded now?
CB: Yes we are
FS: That happened to be the initial training school for flying happened to be a private training school and one or two of the previous employers at the school were still there until young ex flyers that’s not Bomber Command but Fighter Command came to do the training and they were young men of nineteen, twenty, twenty one, and the next part I would not like recorded its purely of interest but not I don’t think it is for the record, I mean these sorry
CB: Would you like me to pause it
FS: Yes, just for your [pause]. So I was taken under the wing metaphorically of a young man who was nineteen/twenty years of age who obviously shown how good he was a flyer and then been sent on to this training base and I found him excellent as a flyer but virtually useless as a trainer because he had no tolerance of my ineptitude for flying [slight laugh] at all and he got all these various flying techniques slow rolls, shuffles, turns and all the rest of them and I was just clinging to the side of the aircraft hoping I wouldn’t fall out [laughs].
CB: What aircraft were you in
FS: Tiger Moths [laughs]
CB: Tiger Moths I see
FS: You’d sit there next to him doing slow rolls and you’d catch everything that was coming out the cigarette ends and everything else that was in there would hit you in the face you know and you weren’t supposed to hold the sides of the aircraft you were supposed to have your hand on the joystick and I didn’t, that’s all part of the fun [laughs], er um, from then what happened next, er yes, I had um, I was taken off all training because playing rugby I had a scratch on my right eye across the pupil and there was a danger that I might not be able to fly at all, so I was admitted to the hospital at Swindon and I was there for a while and finally I was released unconditionally the repair had been affected as far as my eyes but meanwhile I was taken off the training for weeks on end and I wondered whether I was going to go back again but I did, but of course I lost all the people I was with they were well on their way to Canada, shall we go on now?
CB: Yes yes please
FS: From then we were all posted, all prepared for despatch to Canada because they had set up this empire [?] air training scheme which was part in Canada and the other part in Port Elizabeth in South Africa where all this training for all all aspects of flying all duties were going to be covered and we were sent up to a waiting station in Manchester a placed called Heaton Park where the maximum holding of manpower was for two odd thousand and it built up to ten thousand and we had individuals who actually were finding homes to stay in in proximity to Heaton Park this was all because of the big problems in the Atlantic we were going to be sent off by the Queen Elizabeth first boat and because of the submarines and so forth they were diverted they were slowing everything down for obvious reasons and it came to a point there was a terrific overflow from Manchester and they sent a company of us down to the south coast just to deposit us for a while we had only been there for four days and the Germans had obviously been advised and they sent across a fleet and we had a lot of casualties because they caught one flight coming back from training exercise and we had suspected that when we heard the roar of these aircraft that they were English aircraft when in actual fact they were German aircraft who were attacking us and from there that we had only been there for three days and that night or following morning at about two o’clock in the morning we all paraded we went right along the full length of the promenade on both sides of the promenade to the railway station onto a train and we didn’t get off the train until we got off at Harrogate, and from then on we were there for a short period of time despatched to Scotland and for one night only and then onto the Elizabeth the following day and away to Canada.
CB: How long did it take to get to Canada
FS: Four and a half days.
CB: What were the conditions like on board
FS: What with twenty thousand, we ate twice a day and we heard about when we were going to eat and whatever when we got on the boat by having these tickets and mine said two o’clock in the afternoon and two o’clock in the morning and from two o’clock until six o’clock afternoon and evening I was on special guard duty for the whole trip and we were allotted that sort of guard duty from two until six two until six.
CB: And what did that involve
FS: Parading all round the ship like in the daytime, not so much from two am in the morning until six am in the morning round the decks and that was the job its not everybody who had that sort of assignment but when I got on board I was given that ticket which advised me that I was one of twenty one in the bridal suite and that I had these duties from two until six two until six [laughs].
CB: Were you on your own in this bridal suite
FS: No [emphasis] twenty one I was one of twenty one in the bridal suite.
CB: In the bridal suite
FS: Oh yes, seven three tier bunks.
CB: Oh I see
FS: Great fun [laughs].
CB: So you got to Canada docked at Canada
FS: No no we went into New York, we went into New York and then a train travel [?] the likes of which I had never experienced before on the train for about three days off to Canada and we ate and slept we slept on the luggage racks which you could pull down for luggage but we had to sleep on them we couldn’t sleep at all we went up to Canada a place called Moncton which was the assembly point at the beginning of our trip to Canada we went to several stations in Canada for different aspects of training of course.
CB: So from Moncton you went to
FS: Er, one two three four different stations and then the last station was a place called Ancienne Lorette which was outside Quebec City and from there the majority of them were six of us were commissioned out of the thirty six on the flight six of us all went to Prince Andrews Island for this GR training and the rest of them either went straight away into operations in the Far East, as one or two of my friends and colleagues did and the rest of us went to Prince Edward Island for six weeks and then came home and that was it, we were there for about fifteen months all told.
CB: And you were being trained on
FS: All aspects
CB: And you settled for and you ended up where
FS: I had nothing to do with it you were directed I came back here one of the after that they differentiated with you between your badges I got an observer badge fully qualified afterwards that changed to either air gunner or BA which is bomb aimer or N for navigator they split it.
CB: Just to go back to Canada a minute what was the accommodation and the food like from what you had been used to in the UK
FS: No comparison vastly superior because they had no restrictions there in actual fact and that meant either in the camp or going out into the town for dinner I mean the prices were very realistic and the food was superb because it was free choice so when we went into Quebec City itself in actual fact you could dine for silly prices and you had fantastic meals and that’s what it was.
CB: What aircraft did you learn on
FS: Mainly Ansons, mainly Ansons and we had one or two gunnery [?] trips on Beaufighters which I haven’t mentioned before Ansons and Beaufighter
CB: What did you feel about your time in Canada was it happy memories
FS: Oh it was superb long time we had we worked eight days and then had a day off that was the standard eight days and one day off until we arrived in Prince Edward Island surprise surprise there was a weekend we finished work and we had Friday and Sunday off we used to go oyster fishing off Prince Edward Island [laughs].
CB: What were your other recreations apart from oyster fishing
FS: Gymnasium and squash that was about it and walking of course did a tremendous walking lovely particularly from Quebec one amusing incident we a bunch of us went into Quebec to the cinema and when we came out at the end of the show there had been a five foot fall of snow which meant we couldn’t even get out of the entrance of the theatre there so we ultimately got out and one of us went into the the hotel there which I have got a photograpgh of and booked a room and twelve of us occupied the room for the night then we got back to camp the following day the camp was about fourteen miles so I mean it was either snow shoes or horse drawn sleds took us back the following day but that was one of the amusing incidents.
CB: So happy times in Canada
FS: Oh absolutely in the main yes great fun and then coincidence I suppose we came back on the Elizabeth again
CB: Same sort of routines
FS: Yes not quite as cramped [laughs]
CB: How did you feel going across the Atlantic I mean were you frightened you were going to be torpedoed
FS: I don’t think it entered any of our minds at all we changed course getting slightly technical we changed course every seven minutes on that boat which you could realise in actual fact if you were up on the bridge because you could see this in the water purely as a safeguard and we diverted as well south and then turned back again up into New York.
CB: You were you part of a convoy
FS: Oh no, oh no nothing could keep up with that boat that’s why it was superior to the submarines they ain’t got that speed so we got away with it just changing course every seven minutes which is standard procedure and it can be set up by equipment in those days so every day of courseyou can see it so later on in the day you can see where you are crossing because you had left a stream there purely to indicate you changing course and that was entirely automatic until we got into New York and we were only there for a short time but there again talk about hospitality when we got off the boat we were given a little bunch of cards with names and addresses on and [?] please give us a telephone call and it would be an automatic invite to their houses if they were in proximity to where you were and we used to go out while we were there until everything was ready or the onto the train and up into Canada but that was a very nice experience went to big shows called Sons of Fun at the gardens there and they made fun of us course but it was all lighthearted stuff yes but we were one of the early contingents obviously across there into the states and they made a fuss of us while we were there which we accommodated very well and they did it in Canada in Canada the same arrangement the first Christmas we were there two of us David and I went to stay at a family they called them Driscolls and they lived in Montreal they had three children and we were invited there to stay there as long as we want over Christmas they took us up in the mountains up to the top and had Christmas dinner up in the Laurentian Mountains as part of there hospitality suite it was really good.
CB: Wonderful
FS: Oh yes it was no it was and they were also wonderful they used to send parcels to my family in Manchester the Driscoll’s Mr and Mrs Driscoll used to send parcels to my family in Manchester and saying jumping ahead a lot now on our way back from South America when we landed in Washington on VJ Day imagine what that was like and then we flew on to Montreal and when in Montreal I phoned the Driscolls you’ll never guess within ten minutes they said you’re not staying at the Windsor Hotel they picked me up and took me home I had to have five [unclear] with them of course and that was an indication of the hospitality I phoned them and within minutes they were there with the car and I renewed acquaintance with them after several years in Montreal.
CB: How wonderful
FS: More about that later
CB: So you arrived back in Liverpool
FS: Um, no we arrived back in Scotland.
CB: And then what was the next stage of your
FS: Down to down to Harrogate and then on to – down to Harrogate posting to Dumfries where I did an extensive course of specialised bombing for Pathfinders not that was any indication that we were going to [unclear] but that was specialised in training in Dumfries with a Polish pilot by the by very good we used to do specialised bomb dropping as required in these aircraft which I suppose was a Wellington and then down to, er um, down to pick up my crew, yes that’s where I met Mcfarlane and the rest of my crew before we went into mess halls.
CB: And where did you do your crewing up
FS: At um – Chipping Warden near Banbury.
CB: Right
FS: Yes because then in actual fact we were [unclear] break of through Wellington so before that in actual fact we crewed up at this place called Chipping Warden that was Banbury that was a sub station for Banbury we did our crewing up and then went to Chipping Warden and then started flying on Wellingtons purely training didn’t do any operational flying from there I tell a lie we did one operational flight that was on VJ night we flew over France dropping thousands of leaflets.
CB: Would you like to explain the crewing up
FS: Yes certainly we would assemble there was no assembly you just went into a huge hangar and you just wondered around I suppose so that was in the main the captain of the aircraft and in my case that was Squadron Leader McFarlane and he had met one person of the crew at the railway station at Littleport and on the railway station before they got there the two of them had decided that Captain McFarlane would have this other fella and then we got into this hangar and we wondered around and picked up and are you crewed up would you like to join us and we gathered up the crew the two gunners, and then wireless operator the bomb aimers as was then the navigator and the captain and that’s how we formed up and from there we went on to Wellingtons and then Stirlings and then on to Lancasters.
CB: So you first OTU operational training unit
FS: That was at Chipping Warden yes
CB: And your first training your did you know your first training was it leaflets
FS: First training or first flight the first operational flight
CB: Yes
FS: Was on VJ night and on landing night when we dropped thousands leaflets over France
CB: Right
FS: Then from then onwards we went on to Methwold and then Mildenhall ah I am telling lies we went to – Chedburgh that was on to Stirlings no we did no that’s right we went onto Stirlings but before we did any operational flights on Stirlings we transferred to Lancasters so went to Lancaster Finishing School LFS which was at a place called Feltwell just down the road from here.
CB: What date would this have been
FS: I’ll have to check with my
CB: Roughly
FS: Forty end Forty Three beginning Forty Four as near as makes no difference.
CB: So you went from flying on Wellingtons
FS: Yes only the one trip
CB: Only one trip on Wellingtons
FS: Then we went on flying Stirlings but we never did operational flying then we went on to Lancaster Finishing School at Feltwell and then on to operations at Methwold.
CB: What did you make of flying in the Stirling
FS: We didn’t but we had no choice I mean as far as we were concerned when we went training on Stirlings that was the aircraft we were going to fly in operations it so happened coincidentally happily that the Lancaster was coming in and replacing the Stirlings and whateverother aircraft we got and that was going to be the aircraft in this part of the country as opposed to Halifaxes in the Lincolnshire area which was a different group as you realise here we were 3 Group Lincolnshire were that’s what 4 Group glorious place.
CB: So we are now on to now in Lancasters
FS: Right operational flying the usual now what details would you like then I would have to refer to my flying log book.
CB: Certainly lets know some of the targets you went to.
FS: Shall I get my book
CB: Yes that’s fine, Frederick if we could talk about your start the start of your Bomber Command experiences in the Lancaster, so could you tell us about well your first operation.
FS: Yes now lets just have a look and be precise that’s Lancaster Finishing School 208 Squadron Methwold operation was destination was Boulogne can’t imagine what that was about um daylight visit to Boulogne doesn’t mention anything about bombing at all, um then there was a four and a half flight to Dusseldorf that was a straightforward bombing exercise now that would be the one [unclear] Calais [unclear] Duisburg bomb target so it must have been that trip to Dusseldorf when we came back the following morning that we noticed several technical people were busy standing underneath our aircraft gazing up underneath the right the starboard wing of which there was a hole between the second and third petrol tanks [laughs].
CB: And that had been caused by
FS: That had been caused by a bomb being dropped from one of our aircraft above which had gone straight away through between the two tanks without exploding which it should have done on impact.
CB: Incredible
FS: Absolutely absolutely incredible and then we did several trips and – that’s [unclear] that transfer date [pause] ah there we are yes the transfer date to Mildenhall see how many trips we did there, Stuttgart Essen Volks[?]
CB: So you are bombing the major cities now
FS: Yes that’s up to about October forty four
CB: Were you involved in any of the Berlin raids
FS: No not one no scheduled for but cancelled what had happened in actual fact, [coughs] pardon me oh sorry lets go back please to Methwold again because that was I had been talking about our first bombing raid when we actually arrived at Methwold as a crew the previous night they had sent out twelve Lancaster aircraft and five came back which is a heavy loss for one station and we became part of the quite pathetic exercise of moving into accommodation which had previously been occupied by friends of ours and you know when anybody is lost they have a special committee set up particularly with officers and these officers were doing all their duty work and we were moving in the following day so it wasn’t a very good start as far as we were concerned but still we obviously we accommodated it but that was a heavy loss they sustained that night and then the this was the first operational operational job we came back and found that incident the following morning in our aircraft yes so going on now what more
CB: So you went from Methwold to
FS: So we went from Methwold to Mildenhall I’ll tell you about why there had been a loss at Mildenhall there was a vacancy for a new squadron commander and they appointed my captain Squadron Leader McFarlane and they agreed which was unusual they agreed for him to take his full crew so we all went so we were all transferred our affections to Mildenhall and then onwards
CB: And this was with 218 Squadron
FS: From 218 to 15
CB: Right [unclear]
FS: And here we are 15 Squadron at Mildenhall and when there was a loss our captain was a squadron leader so when there was a loss of a senior officer the group captain no it wasn’t a wing commander over they appointed our captain McFarlane to take over from him as a wing commander so he lost his crew for obvious reasons and that crew was taken over by a Squadron Leader Percy and at that point I was appointed I was taken out of the crew and appointed as bombing leader for 15 Squadron and I also I became squadron adjutant at the same time reporting again to my previous captain McFarlane so I was taken out of my crew at that time.
CB: What does being adjutant involve at that time
FS: All the clerical work on top of which I was the leader of the bombing section so I was actually the bombing leader which you had to have in every squadron he’s the guy who goes to all the early meetings to take advice for onward transmission to the people of what was going to happen that night so that was so I had those two jobs I had still when I was so I was then whipped out of my crew and another individual appointed to the crew which was then being handled by Squadron Leader Percy who had taken over from McFarlane so I lost my crew because of my other involvements and I stayed in that situation until surprise surprise I was advised that I had been selected to accompany Harris now the reason how they did that they obviously they wanted an aircraft and I will show the aircraft that had been modified afterwards they wanted what was I going to say, how they chose who was going to do what they chose 15 Squadron because it was the oldest squadron in the air force to do these flights for Harris and having chosen the aircraft from 15 Squadron they took out the leaders from each department bombing section navigation section [unclear] section and those leaders all were part of the crew that’s the crew I have got in the photograph next door so from that point onwards I was involved in away to Africa America Canada and everything and left the crew behind.
CB: So your operational life stopped
FS: It stopped
CB: How did you feel about seeing your crew going off and having been given these new duties
FS: Well I was immensely proud because I mean it was quite an assignment we were going to go on we had no idea at that time we’d only got the shadow of what was going on we knew he’d been invited I’m talking about Harris because he’d been in Africa before he came to England he was been in South Africa he’d been invited to various places and the South er the Brazilian Government had invited somebody out there to commemorate the arrival of the Brazilian Expeditionary Force which had gone to Italy and not fired a shot and got back home again and they declared a national holiday [laughs] and coincidentally we were due to be arriving in Rio de Janeiro before they arrived back and that was what that was all about.
CB: There must have been a terrific sense of comradery on you know when you were flying with your crew that you had been with such a long time.
FS: [laughs] of course yes but it had to be severed the initial severance was when I was appointed the bombing leader which immediately took me out because only on rare occasions I had one or two rare occasions when a particular crew would be short of a bomber for one reason or another and I stepped right into their jobs that was quite harrowing to be a foreigner so to speak with a crew because you get used to your crew their attitude their application and even their reaction to situations but to go with another crew I found that quite tough going yes I flew with a Canadian crew on one occasion and they’d had several very rough experiences with I’ll mention one a decapitated bomb aimer came back in the aircraft and there were others now the crew in relation to my crew which were far more disciplined but with respect they hadn’t gone through the sort of operation now that crew with whom I flew on their twenty second operation were very little discipline there at all I think they were very concerned about what had happened on their previous operations they bailed out and they had done lots of other things and I flew with them as the air bomber for them and I found that the disciplines were very sadly lacking which was reflected on the chattering that goes on over the telephone the intercom which was fairly evident but still that is by the by and you ride that situation which I did.
CB: Did you just fly the one operation with them
FS: Yes yes yes just the one
CB: And did your crew your original crew did they survive the war
FS: Yes they did yes yes yes they did, no they did yes in spite of all the losses yes yes
CB: So you are now given these new duties and the next thing you hear is that you are going to be flying with Harris
FS: Right
CB: And when did you first see him when did you first meet him
FS: At the first place before we were going to, let’s get the dates – where I finished up [flicking through pages of flying log] – it all started in July Forty Five.
CB: Oh so
FS: Yes July Forty Five it started that’s when I met up with Wing Commander Calder a scots ex dambuster and he came down and I started flying with him as a co-navigator and then that was just before the trip started now the actual trip do you want to go on to when the trip started.
CB: Well if we can go back to Calder what would had been your you know your trip tours after the war in July Forty Five what were you doing with Calder.
FS: He was the captain of the aircraft taking Harris around the world.
CB: I see
FS: Yes.
CB: Right so
FS: Calder was ex bomber no ex Dambuster Squadron yes that’s Wing Commander Calder double DSO double DSC no seriously he was only twenty one brilliant.
CB: Yes so he was the pilot
FS: Yes he was the pilot
CB: So you would be the
FS: I flew with two navigators on this
CB: So you were the navigator on this because obviously we weren’t this wasn’t any hostile flying involved.
FS: None at all
CB: It was just
FS: Hardly, hardly
CB: It was just taking Harris around
FS: Yes quite literally and all that went with it.
CB: So what did you make of Bomber Harris
FS: I found him most of all to if I used the term a gentle person obviously a very strict disciplinarian but in actual fact on a personal basis on the occasion when I was talking to him he was much a very relaxed bearing in mind with what he had to contend as I mentioned before it wasn’t an easy life for him at all he had to virtually fight for possession for his own force and he had the big people in government who were contesting him in many instances I could name names but there is no point until he finally bearing in mind as I mentioned before the junior service the first being the navy the second being the army were very much the junior service and he didn’t find he’d get his own way at all in spite of the plans he had laid and the proposal view put before the big people like Portal and others who didn’t entirely agree with him that getting behind the German war machine by tackling in reducing to ruins their equipment factories that were providing the aircraft and all the aircraft parts was what he wanted to get at he didn’t find it easy until apparently he did get his own way and that’s when the war then moved to the German armoured factories which was part of the beginning of the end so to speak so the rest of that in actual fact is devoted to flying we did the whole of Africa and then started off we should have gone we went to a little aerodrome in the South of France for refuelling then we should have gone to Crete but we got to Crete and they said on no condition that you land because we have got a fever that is sweeping through Crete which could be dangerous so we didn’t drop off at Crete at all our next port of call was Egypt and then we went right the way down Africa staying at various places until we got to Cape Town.
CB: What was the purpose of Harris’ travels
FS: There was really no purpose these were just invitations from these people overseas to express their appreciation of what he’d done for Bomber Command and in the longer term what he had done in the country in terms of accelerating the close of the war and I suppose a thank you for the fifty five thousand who died during the war because this came out in all his little addresses that he gave in actual fact he was conscious of that fifty five thousand he dropped it in quite loosely everywhere so that was the trip and we came back only for a short period of time and then went on to the South American trip flying down the west coast of Africa to a place called Bathurst and then flying across from Bathurst to North Brazil and down to Rio de Janeiro and then all the way back calling in at various places British Guyana etcetera etcetera etcetera up over Florida and landing on VJ Day in Washington for the big celebrations which we joined in and at that time met big people like General Arnold and General Eaker with whom he Harris had been negotiating years before for the Americans to come into the European war instead of devoting their care and attention to the Japanese which was arguably their main drive force in actual fact he was one of the individuals we had dispatched to America to talk it over and in fact these two individuals were present when we landed in Washington so it was quite a gathering quite a gathering yes.
CB: Do you know if Harris knew that they were going to drop the atomic bomb in August
FS: Oh yes
CB: He knew so was it timed that he would be in Washington at that
FS: No
CB: No
FS: He didn’t we did our trip across South America Rio de Janeiro Sao Paulo addressed the British community in Sao Paulo this is where the fifty five thousand came up again and purely by coincidence I met a young man there an Englishman who had completed his course at [unclear] university when I went there and he had transferred his affections to the equivalent of our administration organisation and he had joined that in Sao Paulo and as he mentioned he said if you ever thinking about coming over here do get in contact with me and we will see what we could do this was in Sao Paulo South America and we had that closeness in that part of our education of being in the same place at slightly different times we got round to discussion this and he said well wait a minute I was there too when were you there and I realised I had gone there when he’d left in Manchester quite astounding yes quite astounding [laugh] we kept in a bit of correspondence for a while but I had no intention of going to South America in actual fact at that time well by that time I had left [unclear] and was working in Mareham I had met the lady who was going to be my future wife who’d had a little girl whose husband had died and any thoughts of going out of England had gone she came from Kings Lynn in actual fact.
CB: So how long was this flight with Harris
FS: Oh right –
CB: Right Frederick so you have started with going around Africa and so on in July Forty Five and you actually came back in August Forty Five so do you look on that time as a pleasurable month did you enjoy doing what you did with Harris
FS: Oh fantastic I mean these places I had never visited before I’d never been to Africa before and we I say we just went to these various places in Africa stopping for two or three days and at each place from Cairo to Cayga [?] I mean as far as I was concerned that was fantastic we did all these wonderful things in the Sahara into the jungle at night time you name it we did it of all the places to stay in Nairobi we stayed at the Norfolk Hotel in that location and to things like seeing all the African workers sitting on the steps making things like I’ve got those forks knives and forks actually making them and selling them to us in actual that was a new experience going out on night time safaris going out on night time sing songs in the jungle and all that sort of thing we did going to moth and butterfly museums quite absolutely incredible.
CB: Did Harris join you for any recreations
FS: No, for some but mostly he was at a much higher level than we were and were concerned with our I mean we went to Mombasa we went down we did the big things like going down a gold mine for instance going down a gold mine and you go down a gold mine instead of going straight down there you go about seventy five degrees and six of you go down at a time two two two and you go down at a fantastic speed at about that angle that was the Wanderer Gold Mine and I’ve still got specimens I joke not I’ve got specimens of gold that they gave us at the gold mine fifty sixty years ago I’ve still got them I don’t know what they are worth but these are specimens inside that you see petrite [?] it’s called inside the petrite[?] is pure gold.
CB: Gold that would be worth now these days
FS: Oh bound to I might take it to see that fellow who does gold in Lynn he’d say oh thank you I’ll have this bit its worth a couple of pounds couple of pounds sorry I joke but no it showed I had a fantastic experience in those places we went to a place in Bathurst on the West Coast of Africa from which we flew to South America and we went they took us down to a cellar where the native bunch were all sitting on the floor making filigree and we could buy it and we could buy it for ridiculous prices I mean low low prices and we all bought our specimen as few of but actually to sit there and watch it being made that was a fantastic experience that followed not quite such a fantastic experience when we were landing in Bathurst a place called Halfdie [?] which has taken its name from the fact that they had a plague which wiped out fifty percent of it and thereafter named it Halfdie [?] and the last few hundred yards in we encountered a terrific sandstorm and we couldn’t see a thing out of the aircraft it was kind of landing by instinct and we got out of the aircraft and it was torrenting down and we were absolutely saturated and they persuaded us to strip off and put clothes on and they put all our clothes on to fast heaters so we went in there was a crisp uniform standing up in the corner which you had to break to get it on [laughs] like this crack crack crack it was quite ridiculous and we had a function an important function that night and there was our stuff we had to wear everything shirt vest and pants was rock hard [laughs].
CB: I assume Harris’ stuff wasn’t
FS: No he had six spare uniforms in his luggage that was incredible we had that photo they had just taken all our clothes away and woosh we’ll dry these for you [laughs]
CB: Now after the war if we can just conclude with Harris he didn’t wasn’t treated very well
FS: No no he wasn’t
CB: Nor was Bomber Command for that matter
FS: No no no
CB: Did you have sympathy with Harris at this time about how he was treated
FS: Oh yes I think we all did I yes I suppose even then the realisation of what sort of if I can put the wording in the battering he had to get his own way and the fact and even the fact that it was proven beyond any doubt that what that the plans he had put forward and etcetera which had met so much opposition at one time and then finally he got his own way and got the power behind his throne that he wanted to do what he wanted to do with Germany in spite of [unclear] and all that I suppose we all had a tremendous amount of sympathy and a tremendous amount of respect for his dogmatic approach in actual fact to get not his own way for words sake for getting his own way for the benefit which would be derived in him getting permission to do what he wanted to do and the result was the war came to an end so I suppose at that time we thought a great deal of him.
CB: And did you all think you know a great deal of him during the war when he was he had this programme
FS: Yes that was the general the general sentiment yes he didn’t mean admire he wouldn’t expect to meet any opposition at that it was patently obviously what we had to do and one was certainly not send the trained crews to handle the Atlantic war in spite of how vital that was I mean we talking about hundreds of thousands and when you look at the figures of what was going down ‘twixt and ‘tween American and where they were delivering the goods to place like Archangel and Murmansk North of Russia and then there was all those goods coming through Russia into the European war in spite of all that and the tremendous demands which were made upon him by as I say the Navy to send to have some trained forces so they could handle the Atlantic war well of course that wasn’t realistic in anyway there was nothing that we were doing in Germany to identify with anything to do with the Atlantic war that was something quite different admittedly they wanted the aircraft and unless they could have the aircraft and they could have the armaments to be able to drop bombs on submarines which was a bit wild gesture anyway that might have been might have made a contribution towards the more positive influence of all the shipping that was coming across the Atlantic than it did because we wouldn’t I remember the speeches in parliament by Churchill ex hundreds and thousands and thousands of tons of zinc had gone down and then the humanitarian aspect of how many they had lost at sea I don’t suppose any of us could identify that with sending trained Royal Air Force crews into the Navy to do what you know one of the things you were supposed to do to have a fleet of aircraft over the Atlantic dropping bombs on U-boats bearing in mind we had U-boats out there trying to blow the air out of the Germans anyway but that was I suppose that could have taken a different more important role entirely had that shipping gone down a more I mean with these vital elements that were arriving from America in Russia well it was a contributory factor obviously and hundreds of thousand tons going down in the Atlantic meant nothing at all to that building up that war coming down from Russia through Germany etcetera so we had a great deal of respect for him and he was a person who you had a great deal of respect for anyway not because of his position and his number of stripes in actual fact his dogged determination to get his own way for the benefit of not he for the benefit of the war.
CB: Well
FS: Sorry to interrupt but this came out in his speeches that he gave overseas in South America and the particular one we all attended in in Rio to the British contingent he was quite emotional about [unclear] the losses that had been sustained doing what he wanted to do.
CB: Of course Churchill after the war distanced himself from Harris.
FS: Oh yes yes
CB: His strategy and Bomber Command what do you feel about that
FS: We had a very strong feeling extremely strong feelings the war was over then we could say but wait a minute we succeeded but it wasn’t that easy in actual feel there was a tremendous amount of ‘oppo’ of course a lot was caused by the Dresden business that manifested itself too I remember that we haven’t touched on it yet Joy and I were specially invited to the memorial service the unveiling service for the house you’ve got all the details for that
CB: Yes
FS: Because I’ve got all the details just digressing for a moment only because of my association close association for a short period of time I had special dispensation to attend the church we had seats you had to pay for them but we had seats reserved at the church for the unveiling ceremony which was the Queen Mother of course.
CB: Yes
FS: And that was sorry to be digressing just for a moment and when we got the invitation it was a question of where it was so forth how you get there so forth and I said ‘oh there’s no point taking a car there’s thousands going there’ having a contact at The Savoy I phoned my contact and got a reservation in their garage for my car and again realised you come out The Savoy turn right and there’s the church so Joy and I went up there I was in full regalia medals and all chat chat chat[?] and went in there and had breakfast in The Savoy [laughs] there were people coming up and whats going on oh yes we’ve got something special going on down the road and then walked out the front and walked out and there was the church and we had reserved seats that was packed to capacity as of course the Queen Mother was there of course she performed the unveiling ceremony and again there was a terrific uproar in the background on her lefthandside at the back it was subdued but in actual fact it started off being very very rowdy and she continued on with her little citation for the opening and it came very interesting from Joy and I point of view my group captain from Mildenhall was then the chairman of the Bomber Command Association and his duty on that particular day was to escort the Queen Mother round and into the law courts where we were having [unclear] or teas coffee whatever I mean so he took and upside in his wheelchair was Cheshire so we could shake hands with Cheshire that’s purely by the by and we got inside and we wondering how difficult this is you’ve got two hands a cup in one hand a plate in the other one said help yourself and we were in this sort of situation and a voice boomed out it was my group captain ‘Shepherd would you bring your good lady over’ and we were introduced to the Queen Mother as spontaneous as that no preparation at all so Joy went across and was presented on the spot that was a lovely instance and that was my group captain.
CB: Yes
FS: From Mildenhall so where have we got to as far as your concerned
CB: I know that you were involved even on a slight degree with Operation Manna
FS: Oh yes on experimentation that’s right
CB: So how did you come to be involved in that
FS: There wasn’t much and I signed on for an extra six months no I’m getting things out of timing I came back to Mildenhall and everybody had gone all the bodies had gone all disappeared and there was [unclear] bombing leader who would need a bombing leader after the war [?]
CB: This is April Forty Five Right
FS: That’s absolutely right and I had come back I had finished full of my trips overseas America and everything else and that was excitement at the tail end of when we arrived in Washington of course it was madness and from there we flew up to Duval which is Montreal in the Lancaster of course in preparatory for coming home and we flew off from there and landed in Newfoundland and took off for the trip back to Prestwick which the navigator and I the two of us that was going to be an entirely star navigation back home as an experiment two three thousand miles so we dropped all the mechanics we concentrated on star shooting with our cameras and moon charts and we got a freak tuning from Prestwick two thousand three hundred miles from Prestwick so that pointer came there and we had a beam it up so that we could tell exactly where we were coming over the county it was fine we had a fire on the outboard engine on the starboard side of the aircraft a fire no problem just press the button to extinguish it, press the button to extinguish it, nothing happened so we had a fire in the starboard engine so the only think that Calder could do we were probably about twelve fourteen thousand feet high was to put the aircraft into a very steep dive and it worked it blew the fire out the engine so on investigation we found that when we dropped into Duval for final check up they had not put the fuses back into the system so [sighs] it was a toss up shall we turn back into Newfoundland rather than risk anything and that’s where they confirmed there were no fuses in the fire system whatsoever so we thought we’d choose this got airborne and came back to Prestwick [laughs heartily] but these things what happen we could have gone down there and had no well they wouldn’t know well they would have had a rough idea of where we’d gone down but fat lot of good that does [laughs] well yes that was the spot yes you can see it no can’t see any bubbles a simple thing like that happen yes and that was on the return flight. So back now Manna
CB: Right Manna
FS: So when I came back to Mildenhall there was no job for yours truly but they had a vacancy up the road in Mareham in the experimental unit for Manna and not much alternative I had my service to do and I wanted a job so I was posted in actual fact to take over this Manna thing now that involved researched into a sort of canister that we were handling that had to go on board laden with goods and lifted up into the bomb bay and writing up a report and making recommendations and so forth and on one could be tragic as far as I was concerned we got everything ready we got a pannier fixed inbetween these two containers with whatever to make weight and upstairs one of the armament people was controlling the hoist and halfway up the hoist gives way and I am standing with my hands on the edge of the thing and I took my hand and the whole of the thing crashed down into the pannier it would have just taken it off at the wrist and we looked at the hoisting gear it was clearly marked ‘US’ and they had used it oh there was a terrific stink because the person actually totally responsible was the person doing the mechanical winding upstairs was clearly marked anyway but that’s the time I could have easily lost my two wrists so I continued on my balance on my extra six months writing up reports and so forth and then I left the Air Force.
CB: So for Operation Manna the supplies couldn’t be dropped by parachute so they were in these cannisters.
FS: Yes they were an oblong framework and supported with release gear [unclear] by the pound in actual fact these are the continued developments experiments if you like that we were conducting and it was changing fairly rapidly what was being called for because we were getting reports back from Holland and Belgium on how things were landing and what sort of degree of damage occurred etcetera and what was the ideal height for dropping and they were putting up these tremendous haystacks I suppose you could call in actual fact them to cushion the thing and they worked then I came away from the operation so they built these fields with twenty foot haystacks totally soft so they cushioned everything so the percentage of damage incurred by the contents was minimalised and that was when I came away came out.
CB: So you really finished with the war with Operation Manna and taking Harris out two positive ways to finish the war.
FS: Oh very much no question about that I assure you
CB: Rather than finishing it off on a bombing mission
FS: Yes yes absolutely
CB: And how did you feel when you you know
FS: Well tail end of course the humanitarian thing came in and it was the most simple thing in the world in Kings Lynn at the Dukes Head throughout the war every weekend every Saturday evening throughout the war they had an officers invitation dance at the Dukes Head Hotel and they meant officers and it was at one of these occasions at the officers dance I went along there and surprise surprise I met Joy who was on about her second time out having lost her husband who was a bomber pilot university bomber pilot straight from university straight in.
CB: They had their own squadrons didn’t they
FS: Absolutely yes he did complete his first tour of thirty trips came out unscathed was sent to train pilots who were going to be involved in the dropping of a bridge too far sort of thing he did all his training and he was called back to do his second tour of operation and on his second trip on his second tour went down coming back from Cologne and left Joy with a little girl she was then three and I met her and got married.
CB: What did you do after the war
FS: I worked for a company called Nestle on the sales side and I became responsible for recruitment and training and development for the whole organisation I was with them for thirty years wonderful company international of course head office in a lovely place called Vevay in Switzerland on the banks of the lake and I was with them for
CB: Did you live out there
FS: No went but no lived in England moved about England when Nestle moved their head office into Croydon and had this twenty two storey block the first one they had seen in Croydon and they occupied the whole of the building because they brought in all the associated companies into one building the associated companies being the likes of Kieler, Crosse & Blackwell, Toblerone, Findus all the associated companies which were dotted around that all came into the head office twenty two storey block in Croydon so I was there until I retired and then I started work.
CB: How would you sum up your time in the Second World War and Bomber Command
FS: Well it’s tough I mean apart from being revolutionary of course which it is to my mind I don’t know what would have happened if I had stayed with the South American Shipping Association which was involved obviously in shipping goods to South America and that came to an[unclear] end at the start of the war because you couldn’t expect boats to go out there so there was no job so that’s a bypass so answering your question because it’s obviously so revolutionary and so different to what it would have been and I couldn’t imagine what I would have done had I not gone into the Air Force well I suppose life would have been fairly steady progressing with an organisation and at some stage deciding I wasn’t going far enough fast enough and getting out but I mean that was wiped off by going into the Royal Air Force.
CB: So you obviously had to volunteer so did you
FS: Ah you can’t go into the Air Force Royal Air Force without being a volunteer.
CB: No
FS: As you know
CB: Yes
FS: So I had to volunteer I had to go into the Air Force after I had tried to go into the Navy fortunately the Air Force they said yes please thank you rather than the Navy did no no no [laughs].
CB: So well a time really of excitement danger new experiences
FS: A mixture of all of those I mean the new experiences were embodied in the African trips and so forth and at the end when we were coming home from Africa we spent some time in Greece in Italy on the way back so it was really a very comprehensive trip and whilst we down in particularly Rio de Janeiro that was absolutely fantastic I mean you have seen pictures of it Copacabana Beach but we went out to place called Quichaninnia [?] about seventy miles out we had never ever I had never in my life seen a hotel like that out there it had its own everything I mean I mentioned things seventy pianos for a concert seventy pianos indoor and outdoor ballroom indoor and outdoor swimming pools and it was situated actually on the banks of a river so you could get out at night time and go right the way up the river which were all lit from this Quichaninnia [?] Hotel all lit right up into the hills fantastic place.
CB: So these are all experiences that you wouldn’t have had.
FS: I could have afforded it we were honorary members of everything when we arrived there golfing club swimming club the lot they’d opened everything and across the bay from the statue you know it’s the English quarter and that was fantastic a bit of England on the opposite shores of Rio de Janeiro.
CB: Wonderful it’s been fantastic and interesting to hear all your experiences so thank you very much Frederick.
FS: It has if it identifies with what you are looking for fine yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frederick Harold Shepherd
Creator
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Clare Bennett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-05-25
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AShepherdFH150525
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:11:50 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frederick joined the Royal Air Forcein 1941. After going to Cardington, he was given deferred entry and studied for a year at university. He was invited to London for initial training, followed by the Initial Training Wing at RAF Newquay. He did basic flying in Tiger Moths at RAF Clyffe Pypard before going for 15 months to different stations in Canada. He trained mainly on Ansons.
On his return, he went to Harrogate and was then posted to RAF Dumfries where he did a specialised bomb dropping course for Pathfinders. Frederick crewed up at RAF Chipping Warden and trained on Wellingtons. He did one operation, dropping leaflets over France.
Frederick then went onto Stirlings at RAF Chedburgh before Lancasters at the Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Feltwell. He carried out several operations with 218 Squadron at RAF Methwold. Frederick then moved with his captain to RAF Mildenhall when the latter was promoted. He carried out several operations on major cities. Frederick was appointed as bombing leader for 15 Squadron as well as the squadron adjutant.
Frederick was chosen to accompany Arthur Harris, flying with Charles Calder as a co-navigator. The crew were all section leaders. Frederick describes Harris’s personality and the leadership challenges he faced, expressing his sympathy and respect. Having refuelled in the south of France, they went through Africa and on to South America and the United States, arriving in Washington on VJ Day.
Frederick signed on for another six months and went to RAF Marham in the experimental unit for Manna before leaving the RAF.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Manchester
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
United States
Washington (D.C.)
Canada
France
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-08-14
15 Squadron
218 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bomb struck
Flying Training School
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Clyffe Pypard
RAF Dumfries
RAF Feltwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Marham
RAF Methwold
RAF Mildenhall
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/657/8930/AWorralJR150603.2.mp3
1b1651498a905ee755fa3b740b1b30f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Worral, Ray
Joseph Raymond Worral
J R Worral
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Worral, JR
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An oral history interview with Flying Officer Ray Worral (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 44 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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My name is Raymond Worral, I am usually known as Ray and I joined the RAF in nineteen forty three as an Aircrew Flight Engineer. Sorry do you want more information about my name?
MJ. No, just that you are doing and interview for the Bomber Command thing .
RW. I am doing this recording for the Bomber Command, Historical Centre is it? And em em this is what my career is. I em joined the RAF in nineteen forty three, I was an Aircrew Flight Engineer, I volunteered, and I em I went on training. I joined up at the RAF Receiving Centre in January nineteen forty three and from there on I began my training as an Aircrew Flight Engineer. I stayed at the receiving centre for a few weeks, then after that I was posted to an ITW Initial Training Centre, Initial Training Wing at Bridlington in Yorkshire, where I stayed for about three months I think. From January, from the end of January until the end of March and we were kept busy at the Centre there. Square bashing em on parade, learning all the things we needed to know about, basic morse code, we had to know about the Aircrew discipline procedure and everything to do with the RAF. We had a lot of marching up and down the front, it was in cold weather. We were on parade at half past six in the morning on the front at Bridlington towards the end of January in freezing cold weather and then we marched about and did some square bashing and then we went to have our breakfast. Then after breakfast we were on parade again and then we went on various courses which we were told about in em, various places in Bridlington. That continued for about three months I think, em, I should think until the end[pause]. I should think it was till about the end eh, probably lasted about six weeks, so that would take me till about April, when I went down to St Athen on the Flight Engineers training course. This was all ground training and we learned all about aero engines. There was a big RAF Station there, a very big RAF Station in St Athen in South Wales. We went to lectures every morning in the workshops and we learned all about the construction of an aircraft, the framework and the engines. We learned particularly because I was designated to go onto Lancaster aircraft, we learned about the Lancaster. We learned all about the engines and all about the framework. That course lasted for about nine months I think. In the middle of it we were sent on a week’s course to Manchester to the Manchester factory at Ringway just outside Manchester to have a weeks course there. We were talked to by the people who actually worked on the aircraft. After about nine months on the course we were given a test and we graduated in November about the middle of November nineteen forty three.
From there I was posted to RAF Scampton which was a waiting centre and em, eventually I was posted to em, I think it was, Winthorpe which was a Lancaster Conversion Unit. There I met the rest of the Crew, the rest of the Crew had completed their training just as I had completed mine. The Crew of a Lancaster consisted of the Pilot, the Flight Engineer, the Navigator, the Bomb Aimer, Rear Gunner, Mid Upper Gunner and the Wireless Operator. We met in the Mess at Winthorpe and got to know people. Eventually we got together in a room and we got ourselves Crewed up. The others, apart from me had already been Crewed up and already done some training so we sat about and talked to each other and one of the Pilots came up to me and asked if I would like to join his Crew. He seemed a nice sensible sort of Chap so I said yes I would like to join his Crew and so I came to join his Crew. He was an Australian and I met the other members of his crew, the Navigator, an Australian, the Bomb Aimer and Australian and then the em, Wireless Operator, two Gunners were Englishmen and then we started out training at the Conversion Unit at Winthorpe. I think we were there for about two months doing cross country flights, practice bombing flights and em, all the other things we needed to do and getting to know the Crew. After we had done about two months, probably a bit more, probably about ten weeks we were then posted to what they called an RAF Finishing School, sorry a Lancaster Finishing School which was at RAF Syerston near Nottingham. Posted together from the time we were crewed up at Winthorpe we stuck together as a Crew completely. Did everything together even very often went out together to the Pub together and that sort of thing. So we left Winthorpe and went to the RAF Finishing, Lancaster Finishing School which was at Syerston near Nottingham. Continued out training there, special training as applied to a Lancaster Bomber. We had about six weeks there probably a bit more where as a Crew we were posted to the RAF Station at Dunholme Lodge, just outside Lincoln. Dunholme Lodge to 44 Squadron, Bomber Command it was a Rhodesian Squadron in those days and it was RAF, 5 Group Bomber Command. We joined this Squadron as a Crew, all in the same bus, we went in, and we went into the Mess, we were all Sergeants and we went into the Mess and em, It was just before lunchtime on a day before February, I forget what day it was. About the ninth of February and we got into the Mess. I can remember what happened then, it was the day after the well know Nurenberg Raid and eh,the Squadron had been out on that Raid the night before and there had been very heavy losses. When we got into the Mess they were all very, all the people there were silent and quiet and not very friendly and rather gloomy because there had been serious losses. It was not a very bright start to our joining an Operational Squadron. Anyway we had to continue and it was probably I should think, a month to six weeks until we had to do an Operation. We continued to practice doing cross country flights, air tests, bombing runs out on the North Sea off Skegness off the Coast there and a large number of cross country flights day time and night time.
Then at the beginning of April we got our first Operation to do. We were [Pause] I’ve got plenty of notes, I just need to look them up.[long pause] I’m sorry, Winthorpe I was sent to to meet up with the Crew, or did I say it was?On the thirty first of March nineteen forty four and over the following five months em. We entered the Sergeants Mess the atmosphere was cold and unfriendly, little was said. When the one o’clock news came on the Radio we discovered why people were so quiet and so unfriendly because the Squadron had taken part the previous night in the Nurenberg Raid.One of the Bomber Command disasters when seven hundred and ninety five aircraft were dispatched and ninety four were shot down and many others severely damaged. And em, had serious losses and em[pause].
We were briefed for our first Operation. It was a month or six weeks of non Operational flying at this stage and then on the twenty sixth of April we were briefed for our first Operational Target which was Swinefurt in Germany. We went to our briefing and we were told all about what would happen over, on the flight.Went through all our checks. I as Flight Engineer went through a detailed selection of checks. There was the aircraft, before we moved out and em straight and level to the Target and then we dropped our bombs and came back, so we had quite a good trip.
Then two nights later we went on a Bombing Trip to Oslo, in Norway. It was a long trip but it was quite a safe trip because we were flying over firstly the sea. Then on the night of the nineteenth of May nineteen forty four, I came back from leave we’d been on leave, and I came back and we went on a Bombing Trip to Amiens in France, then to on the twenty, no the twenty second of May we were off to Kiel in Kiel Bay to drop mines. Know as a Gardening Operation and so we carried on through our tour. We did twenty five trips successfully. Slight damage on some occasions, we got back. We had done twenty five trips, which was pretty well a record for the Squadron. The average losses, the crews lasted about ten trips so we done pretty well. Then we were briefed to go to Stuttgart on the night of the twenty fifth,twenty sixth of July Nineteen Forty Four. We set off for Stuttgart, it’s a big industrial town in Germany and our target was the Mercedes works, aircraft works in the centre of Stuttgart. We had been the night before, there were heavy losses but the raid had not been a success so when we set off on the twenty fourth, twenty fifth July, we were, I was going to say something. We were on our second trip in twenty four hours back to Stuttgart. On this trip we set off and normally we would fly over the Coast, the French Coast across the anti aircraft defences. All along that Coast was absolutely deadly and we always lost an awful lot of aircraft crossing the Coast. On this particular occasion the Allies had already, as I say this was the twenty fifth, twenty sixth of July,by then the Allies had landed in Normandy and they had built a Bridgehead in Normandy. So we didn’t have to cross the Coast on this particular occasion we were able to go over the Normandy Peninsula and miss out the anti aircraft defences all along the Coast. So we able to go over the Normandy Peninsula and missed out the anti aircraft defences all along the Coast. So we crossed over onto the Normandy Peninsula, flew up the Normandy Peninsula and then turned because we were flying over allied territory for about half and hour or so and we turned and headed for Stuttgart, unfortunately on the way to Stuttgart we were hit, bombs from another aircraft, so the Rear Gunner said. Aircraft got out of control, Skipper said “bale out,” we had to bale out, we had proper procedure for bailing out. The Bomb Aimer was first, he took the hatch of and em, em, baled out into space, then the Flight Engineer, that was me and then the Navigator and finally the Pilot and the Bombers and Radio Operator baled out from the rear, the rear exit. So we got the Bomber, the Pilot decided when we were hit, he asked me to help him with the flying controls. The Control Column was jammed, two of us pulling of it, pulling on it didn’t have any effect, he decided to bale out and it is a good job he did. If he had taken another thirty seconds to bale out we would have all been killed, he made up his mind very quickly and gave us the order to bale out. I went down into the Bomb Nose, saw the Bomb Aimer bale out, I baled out and fortunately my parachute worked and I landed, I don’t know, might have been about ten thousand, I don’t know between eight and five thousand feet when I baled out. When I left the cockpit I could see the altimeter and it was at about seven thousand feet, so it was probably about five thousand feet by the time I got down into the Bomb Bay, and em I saw the Bomb Aimer bale out into space and I hesitated a bit, I got scared, fortunately the Navigator came down behind me and said “bloody well get a move on” and gave me a push, so I had no choice and baled out. So I reckon it was about five thousand feet when I baled out, parachute opened thank God and I landed in Enemy Territory. I landed in a ploughed field, and em, I was in the parachute for a few minutes and em, landed in a ploughed field. I was lucky because it was fairly soft. I didn’t hurt myself. There was a road running alongside the field if I had landed there I might have broken a leg or back or whatever, so I was lucky. I picked myself up [garbled] and I was ok, I had a few bruises and scratches and that was it. So I hid my parachute as a drill, first of all em, first of all, the parachute is a tremendous thing on the ground and there was a gust of wind and it caught my parachute, a parachute as big as an English Bowling Green, filled with air, pulled me right across this field and I hang onto this parachute, it pulled me right across this field, got very grazed across one side of my face and when the wind dropped I managed to haul the parachute in and collected it all up and did as I was told to do, hide it, which was to hide it in a ditch. Then I, I well before that I had to of course hit the button which released the harness, the harness and the parachute went into the ditch.Then I was left, there I was in enemy territory all on my own, don’t know where the others had got to, very scary but I done as I was told and run off as fast as I could. Had to run off as fast as I could because I’m afraid you would do nothing. It had been found that after you had gone through that experience when you landed and did nothing you didn’t do anything until someone came and found you, until they collected you and you finished up as a Prisoner of War. So act quickly and get moving, so having buried my parachute I ran as fast as I could, don’t worry where you are going to, just get away from the scene of the crash, from the scene of where you dropped as quickly as you can. If someone has seen the parachute come down and they get there, you are some distance away and you have a chance of hiding. So I ran, I was fairly fit then, ran for nearly an hour I think and I was eventually tired, got down and began to walk. All very quiet and eventually I came to a little village and em there was a church in the village. I was fairly tired then I thought “I will get into the church if its open and collect my thoughts” So it was well after midnight I should think, don’t know what the time would be. Think it was about midnight when we were hit actually, it would probably be about one o’clock in the morning. I walked into this church and the door was open, so I went in and sat on a pew and collected my thoughts and rested, rested for about half and hour and then I thought “I had better get away.” I moved out and continued my walk right through the night and em, er just walked and then as dawn, well just before dawn I heard the sound as I was walking back, walking the sound of heavy bombers. They must have been our bomber squadrons going back having bombed Stuttgart. Anyway I continued walking and as it came to daylight I crept under a hedge and fell asleep er, Daylight came and I thought I had better hide myself. I hid under this hedge on the hard ground and er, early dawn just come daylight. I fell asleep, I was very comfortable and I slept until about one o’clock. I remember waking up at about one o’clock looking at my watch, I was woken up, slept all that time. When I woke up I could hear voices in the field next to me, so I didn’t show myself, I thought they might not be friendly. So I stayed where I was wondering what to do. I thought that the best thing I could do was to stay here hidden all day and when it gets dark will continue on some sort of a journey. So I lay all day under the hedge, could hear these voices in the field and then when it was beginning, it was late afternoon, beginning to get a bit dark and the people left working in the field. So before it got dark I thought well, “it’s no use staying under the hedge here, I’ve got my escape kit, got my escape map I have no idea where I am but I might be able to find it with a map. So I will get out before it gets dark and see if I can have a look at my map.” So I, before it got dark I walked out, the people in the fields had stopped working and gone home. When I got onto the road, just a narrow country lane I walked along and there were a few people about and I walked along and to my surprise, to my great surprise they took no notice of me. Well what was I wearing at this stage? Well I was wearing my Battle Dress over the top part of the Battle Dress I had a linen, sort of a brown linen jacket which you could plug into the aircraft and it was electrically heated but I didn’t need to use it, but I thought I would just use it as something to wear in the aircraft. It covered me from the hip upwards so it was, it covered the top part of my Battle Dress and the only bit of my Battle Dress that was showing was my collar and tie. But in those days the French farmers wore a grey shirt with a black tie invariably, so that was ok. My Battle Dress trousers well they were like a pair of scruffy overalls. The boots, the flying boots were made that so that you could cut the fitting off round the ankle, through the leg part away and to all intents and purposes it was just like an ordinary shoe. Very clever I thought the Air Force were pretty good at doing these things. I passed people looking like that and they took no notice of me, in fact I thought I heard one say “alez mons” I think that’s German, I think they thought I was a stray German that got in. They took no notice of me, I was very impressed, I thought this is good news. So I walked in, walked in, kept walking and passed people and it was ok. Then I came to a village, there were a few people in the village, and em and I thought well. Another thing is as I walked into the village there was a sign post, what a wonderful give away. I remember thinking at the beginning of the War when we had the invasion scare in nineteen forty all our sign posts and and everywhere, all the names of the villages were sealed off. If you went into a village and it had Fulford Post Office on it, Fulford was crossed out because they were scared of German Parachutes’ in nineteen forty four we didn’t want to give them any help and of course the Germans didn’t have time to do this during the War. So there were these sign posts, so I thought “right I will have a look at this sign post and see where it is pointing to.” I picked one name and see if I can find it on the map. So I walked through the village and got into a quiet field, got the map out, and sure enough this village Langur was marked on the escape map, pretty good. So I could see where I was and roughly where I wanted to go, so em, er I had done fairly well so far and so I thought I will continue to walk. I em, I felt as it got dark as it began to get dark I felt rather sick, I think it was reaction, I felt rather weak and so I saw a haystack and I crawled into it and I spent that night in the haystack. I was quite comfortable and woke up at the break of dawn next morning very, very cold and I decided to walk on. So I got out of the haystack and I must say I hadn’t had anything to eat since the time we had left Dunholme Lodge in Lincolnshire I had nothing to eat. I couldn’t do anything, there was an escape kit, very well done but I didn’t but I hadn’t, I didn’t there were things in it, chocolate, bars of chocolate, sugar sweets all that sort of thing. I got out of the haystack and I walked on The next period of excitement was when I, it was early morning and I came to another village and there was a road leading through it, all was quiet, very early in the morning. So I thought em, well I have two choices, I don’t want to be seen in the village so I will walk round it but it was a long way round. I wanted to conserve time and energy, I’ll risk it I’ll walk through the main village street, there is nobody about. So I began to walk through the village street, when it got to the cross roads in the centre to my horror I heard the sound of very heavy vehicles and I thought to myself “this isn’t good news” [Laugh]. One thing it could be; Germans. So I thought “well” I turned round and a few yards behind me was a walled garden with a gate so I managed to run like mad and jump into a bush inside that gate. I looked out from the bush and eh em, no sooner had a got there than one big German lorry packed with troops, came up to the cross roads, turned right in the direction I had wanted to go and it was followed by about five others all packed with German troops so I’d only just missed being caught so I had been very lucky. When they’d gone and disappeared I thought best thing now is to get out of this garden and get moving on my way. I didn’t know if the occupant of the farmhouse or whatever were friendly or not. So being a pessimist I thought he will probably be. Oh they were at great risk these civilians I mean if they were help to them they would get shot. So em there was a great temptation to hand us over to the Germans so I walked on through the village. I got to the other side of the village and to my horror I saw, I heard the sound of heavy lorries again. I thought “goodness me not again” well again I was lucky, there was a farm building across the fields and no hedges, so I run like mad and hid behind this farm building. When I looked round it I could see there were several lorries, I think they were the same ones, there were no troops in them this time. There was a driver, machine gunner on the running board, on the running the board the chap had a machine gun pointing to the sky and there was the driver, and em. I saw this from behind this farmhouse that I’d reached and they hadn’t seen me, there was about another four or five of them. They disappeared and I walked back onto the road. Until this day I cannot understand why they did not see me running across that field to the farmhouse, it was just one of those miracles. So I continued walking and em, it was quite amazing that they did not see me. I can only think that the driver had his eyes on the road, machine gunner was looking up to the sky, don’t forget there were RAF patrols flying over that area at that time of the War and em they might have been straffed, so I think they, he was watching the sky and just didn’t see me. So I walked on, I continued my journey getting hungrier and very tired and I passed other people and they did not take any notice of me, I thought this is marvellous and then em. The next worrying part was having walked most of the morning, I came up to a tee junction and the tee junction was about quarter of a mile or more ahead of me. Everything was quiet except that up to this tee junction came a Vaux wagon camouflaged German army car. I could see it had four soldiers in it and when it turns and goes in the opposite direction I’ll be lucky. If it turns right and comes towards me I am bound to be caught. So no chance to hide, they could see me from where they were. Just carried on walking, put my hands in my pockets, looked miserable, kept my eyes on the road. We were warned in escape drill don’t make eye to eye contact and this car came towards me, I thought the games up, comes to me, if I had put my hand out I could have touched it, it was travelling at twenty five thirty miles per hour and it came past me, waiting for it, expecting it to stop to come and get me. Didn’t stop, didn’t dare look round, looked round about ten minutes later, the car was gone. How they missed me I can’t imagine, I just can’t imagine, it was absolutely wonderful they just didn’t see me. I can’t believe it now when I look back on it all it was tremendous. So I carried on walking. The more I think of it these incidents are absolutely incredible. I continued walking until about lunchtime as far as it would be. I was getting rather desperate actually and I was walking along, em, just outside another village when a lad on a bicycle passed me, “Oh dear” I thought “what is he going to do?” Take no notice of him again, but he passed me and I heard him get off his bicycle and stop, I continued walking but I heard him call, so I thought “I have no alternative, I can’t run now” so I went over to him, he said “are you RAF” I said “yes” he said “well I can help you, follow me.” So I followed him, he took me off the road and led me up a bridle path and said “hide under this hedge, I’m coming back, I’m going to get help for you.” So again I lay under the hedge and waited, not quite sure what was going to happen and em, after about half an hour. Anyway it might be interesting to say why he say me when others didn’t and this was because I was foolish enough to be chewing some gum. The French didn’t get chewing gum during the War we got it in our escape packs and we were given it when we went out on a Bombing Mission, so we had chewing gum and I shouldn’t have been chewing it, he saw me, gave it away, gave the game away. So I waited and then a car, after about half an hour a car came up the bridle path and stopped and the lad, he would only have been about fifteen I suppose was in the drivers seat, was in the passenger seat and the driver got out. He was a tall man and he got out and he shook hands with me, spoke perfect English and said hello and all that and shook hands with me. He said put this overcoat on and get in the back of my car. So I did as I was told and he backed out and we went and backed out onto the road and drove off. The driver explained to me, he spoke very good English that he was the local Doctor and was aloud to have some petrol so that he could see his patients and occasionally he was able to pick up and help and Airman, I was one. He told me his wife was English, they got married in Brighton before the War and em, they came to live in France. We drove on and came to another village and the lad who picked me up left the car, thank you very much and all that sort of thing and I never saw any more of him. And that’s the way the Resistance works, I don’t think that lad would know where the driver, the doctor was taking me. If he was caught he could not give any further information away. That was the sort of way SOE and the Resistance worked. And em, drove on and I came to a farmhouse. Excuse me I must take a break.
MJ. This is the first recording of Raymond Worrall on the third of June two thousand and fifteen for the Historical Unit.
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Title
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Interview with Ray Worral
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-03
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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Worral, JR
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Pending review
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Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:40:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond (Ray) Worral joined the RAF in 1943. Ray completed his initial training in Bridlington and then St Athen for the Flight Engineers training course and learnt the technicalities of the Lancaster. After being crewed up at Winthorpe, Ray attended Lancaster finishing school at RAF Syerston and describes being stuck with the crew completely and often went to the pub them. Ray along with his crew was posted to RAF Dunholme Lodge, doing practice cross country flights before doing 25 operations. Ray then details on being hit on the way to an operation in Stuttgart, and then remembers the bailing out procedure and parachuting into a ploughed field. Ray then talks of his experiences of evading capture and hiding away from a column of German military trucks filled with soldiers. Ray also describes walking down the road past civilians and an enemy vehicle and was amazed for not being spotted. The interview finishes with Ray being helped by a French doctor and ending up at a farmhouse.
44 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bomb struck
crewing up
evading
fear
flight engineer
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
RAF Winthorpe
Resistance
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10612/BPayneRPayneRv1.1.pdf
4be42d107ed7b8f0a042057052d00c0f
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Payne, Reg
R Payne
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
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2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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AVIATION MEMORY.
[Page break]
18
RAF BASES WHERE REG SERVED
[Underlined] 5 YRS [/underlined]
PADGATE
BLACKPOOL
YATESBURY
NORTH COATS
SOUTH KENSINGTON
MADELY
STORMY DOWN
WIGTOWN
SALTBY
COTTESMORE
MARKET HARBOROUGH
WIGSLEY
SKELLINGTHORPE
SILVERSTONE
TURWESTON
NORTH WEALD
KIRKHAM
RANGOON BURMA
[Page break]
[Underlined] Reg Payne [/underlined]
[Underlined] 1939 SEPT. WAR DECLARED [/underlined]
[Underlined] 16 YEARS OF AGE [/underlined]
Home Guard at 16 yrs (1939)
If you waited to be called up at 18yrs you could be sent to work in any of the coal mines, miles away from home
i volunteerd at 17 yrs RAF [underlined] 1940 [/underlined]
Took inteligence exams Moreton Hall Northampton then to RAF Cardington for more tests.
Training as a Wireless Operator.
My training would cost the Government twice as much as sending a pupil thro a university. Period.
2 years training before operations
[Underlined] 1 year to learn morse code 4 hrs per [/underlined] day
Only fighter pilots had long range radio speech.
Bomber pilots had only 10 miles range “Hello Darky” [Underlined] Give Details [/underlined].
[Page break]
[Underlined] JOINING THE RAF OCT 1941 [/underlined]
16 yrs old War Declared
Always keen on RAF.
Joined Home Guard (then L.D.V.) Cransley reservoir & Pytchley Bridge
At 17 yrs volunteer’d RAF
Selection testS Dover Hall Northampton
later on Cardington
Selected as Wireless OP/AG. Training with ATC. Morse code
Short hand typing exam (Cacelled) and call up papers
Advised to get very short haircut ready for RAF
Train to Padgate with Sandwich’s
Poring rain ladies umbrella
Sore eye until Derbyshire
Soaking wet at Padgate hut to hut
[Page break]
After issue of uniform next day parcel up wet cloth’s to send home to mum. Then train to Blackpool P.D.C. Personel Disp Centre
[Underlined] King St. Blackpool [/underlined]
One week only learning about
RAF regulations etc
Care of uniform
Told to get haircut and had one next day (thought I told you to get haircut
Corporal took four of us to nearby hairdressers lost most of our hair
Landlady taught us to polish boots Candle and spoon (hot)
First letter from home (over breakfast) after reading it the landlady said
[underlined] your mother still loves you [/underlined] (tears)
Then move to start our training in the tram sheds every day. Our instructors were ex naval wireless ops, 2hrs morning & 2 hrs afternoon
Morse code Morse code Morse code
[Page break]
[Underlined] OCT 1941 [/underlined]
Mrs Clegg 4 Charnley Rd Blackpool
10 RAF young lads posted there
2 in each bedroom. 2 single beds 3 beds in our bedroom
No food in bedrooms. Ron Boydon Arthur Bromich
Electric lights out in bedrooms after 7pm.
We were detailed in turn washing up. If you didn’t eat all your meals she contacted the RAF Billeting Officer and had you moved
We got over this by flushing it all down the toilet.
Gym slippers had to be worn all the time 10 pairs of gym slippers in the hall always a job to find your own
[Underlined] RAF men had to be in by 10pm. [/underlined]
Mrs Clegg locked the door promp at ten
We could not see the end of film at Christmaas Day, for a small piece of chicken and a small glass of ale
We [underlined] were charged 2 and 6 pence [/underlined]
Ron Boydon & Arthur Browich
The two boys who shared my bedroom were both killed in the war
[Page break]
All your personal clothing and items had to have your name and RAF number printed on it.
[Underlined] No bath or shower at Mrs Cleggs [/underlined]
Showers were allowed for us.
Sat mornings [underlined] Derby Baths Blackpool [/underlined]
We could swim in the baths but had no swiming trunks etc
We [underlined] could [/underlined] swim without costumes etc.
The medical plasters on our arms came off in the waters and floted on the surface on the swimming pool.
A pool atendant collected them with a shrimp net.
Female workers in a large building across the road could’nt take their eyes off us, and waved their arms to us
Morse code Morse code Morse code
[Page break]
Reg’s close RAF friend.
[Underlined] RON BOYDON [/underlined]
Junior Ket Evening Tel reporter
[Underlined] Cover’d in Corby today [/underlined]
Shared my room at Blackpool
Tall young fellow
Ron carried the white parafin lamp at front of our squad, on dark mornings when we all had to march across
Blackpool, to the tram sheds for morse practice, or Stanley Park early morning for P.T. or drill.
On dark mornings & evenings
[Page break]
Morse code speed tests were carried out in a room above Woolworths (Fridays) as your morse speed increast. We only went up to 10 words per minute
If you failed three times you would be taken off corse and be trained as Gunner (Air)
At further training at Yatesbury your morse speed reached 18 words per min
We didn’nt get our own laundry back from RAF Laundry (sizes) sent my laundry home to mum. Food also in parcel when returned Told to put food in cabinet Other boys ate it.
[Page break]
Must be in doors by 10pm.
Home from pictures food not in cabinet! Next time put food in bedroom draw wrapped in underwear.
Later food not in draw contact Mrs Clegg.
Arrive back clock striking 10 oclock just in time we say
Ron Boydon late on parade oil lantern
Trim wick
Lights go out whilst shaving. 7pm.
Turn water off on landing.
Eat up food or will inform Billeting Officer Yellow Peril & hard cheese.
Food down toilet and down back of piano
Ron’s pygamas on landing
Drill with gym shoes on Tower Ballroom also lectures Ena Bagnor organ
Derby Baths shower and swim once per week
Vaccination scabs Office girls
PTO
[Page break]
[Underlined] CHRISTMAS 1941. [/underlined]
No extra Christmas meal, we had to pay 2/6d for some chicken and Christmas Pud
Found out later my mother wrote Mrs Clegg nasty letter.
Of the three in bedroom I was the only one to survive
I recently returned to Blackpool where I visited Charnley Rd,
Our biller much enlarged (2 floors higher
Found my old room So small coul’nt believe 3 beds in a room.
Posted to Yatesbury, P.T. long distance runs over the Downs. P.T.I. ran behind the last boys Took his belt off and made the last boys run fast
Sunday bus ride to Swindon Drinking cider.
Ladies behind bar, kissing us before we got bus home
[Page break]
[Underlined] YATESBURY WILTS [/underlined]
Morse code and wireless valves
Valves}
Triodes
Tetroes
Pentrose
Diodes
Aerials & Accululators
Morse Keys
Accumulators
Stormy Down south coast.
Air Gunnery Cause
Browning machine guns
Armstrong Whitworth [underlined] Whitley’s. [/underlined]
[Underlined] NO 1 A.F.U. SCOTLAND [/underlined] Advanced Flying [underlined] Unit [/underlined]
Ansons & Botha’s
[Underlined] Night flying 34 hours [/underlined]
Pilot suspected engine trouble daylight flight. Landed over in England mid day. Nice dinner in Sgts Mess
Were told later nothing wrong with engine but all had a lovely meal
[Page break]
RADIO WORK & TRAINING
JAN 42 Yatesbury Wireless study
MAY 42 North Coates Ops Duties, Coastal, Com
OCT 42 Radio Maintenance Kensington
JAN 43 Madely Flying Proctors & Dominies
APR 43 Gunnery Course Whitley’s Stormy Down
MAY 43 AFU Wigtown Scotland Ansons Bothas
JUNE 43 14 OUT Cottesmore Saltby Market-Harb
SEP 43 H.C.U. Wigsley Halifax Lancaaster
OCT 43 Ops Skellingthorpe
Now crew of 5 at Cottesmore
Heavy Conversion Unit Wigsley
At RAF Wigsley (Notts) we collected two new crew members
1/ Jock Higgins Mid Upper Gunner
2/ Don Moore Flight Engineer
We were lucky because Don had done a lot of work as an engine fitter before joining as air crew.
[Page break]
MORSE CODE
[Table of Morse Code]
[Page break]
[Underlined] 14 OTU COTTESMORE [/underlined]
[Underlined] JUNE 1943. [/underlined]
Pilots
Navigators
Bomb Aimers
Wireless Operators
Air Gunners
All taken to an empty hangar and told to sort themselves out into [underlined] crews of five [/underlined]
Later each crew would get a Bomb Aimer and [underlined] another Gunner [/underlined]
[Underlined] OPERATIONS [/underlined]
[Underlined] Take Wakey Wakey tablets on leaving English coast for Germany [/underlined]
[Underlined
I IDENTITY
F FRIEND
OR
F FOE [/underlined]
I.F.F. transmitter sends out a signal which recognises you as an RAF aircraft
and not an enemy aircraft.
[Page break]
1 [Underlined] EVERY MORNING [/underlined] change intercom lead ACI batteries. Sign Form 700. Return used batteries to the Accumulator Section
2. [Underlined] Inspect all external aerials [/underlined] for any damage
3. During air test flight, [underlined] check all radio equip [/underlined]
4 [Underlined] Attend the WOPS briefing. D/F stations and frequencies etc. Attend the main briefing [/underlined]
5. [Underlined] Collect the colour of the, day charts, bomber codes, M/F D/F groups to use. Broadcast spare helmet W/T challenge chart [/underlined]
[Underlined] Check ground flight switch. Check voltage switch on A 1134 amplifier for inter com Check radio whilst engines are running Tidy up bundles of window on floor Oxygen mask on before take off Once air born pencil in ranges on Monica Screen IFF switched on Keep watch on Monica screen Listen for half hourly broadcast from Base Leaving the cost wind out trailing aerial
[Page break]
At RAF Wigsley our pilot was given training on 4 engines, training starting with flying Halifax bombers, then changing to Lancasters
Luckily most the wireless equipment that I had was the same that I used in Wellingtons
We did a number of flights by night
Long distance flights which always ended up dropping bombs on a distant bombing range.
At last we were posted to our bomber squadron, which was 50 Sqdn only 3 miles from Lincoln city. Skellingthorpe airfield
The first thing we had to do when arriving was to contact the orderly room and give the name and address of our next of kin.
We were then taken to our sleeping quarters a hut alongside others in a field off the main road leading to Lincoln
Toilets were provided close by, but there were no washing or shower equipment on the site, this only in the Sgts Mess, some distance away a good ten minutes walk.
Rather than take our washing towel, and shaving kit backwards and forwards each day they were hung on pegs in the Sgts Mess where we did all our ablutions. The towels had to be folded back in our haversacks each day and they were always damp.
[Page break]
It was after we had our evening meal in the Sgts Mess, and were returing to our hut, that we spoke to a group of chaps on our camp site. After telling them what a “terrible” place we had ended up in, they smiled at us and said, “terrible” it’s a lovely place, Lincoln is only 10 mins bike ride down the road, loads of pubs, and all of them have plenty of girls there that love meeting us RAF chaps, you will see when you go there.
Fred Ball our rear gunner and myself both had bikes and said we would give it a try. Biking into the centre of Lincoln we spotted a small pub called “The Unity? Finding a place for our bikes we entered the building, there was music in there and we found a table & two chairs to relax on
Sitting there enjoying a glass bitter we could’nt help notice two ATS girls also enjoying their drinks, we could’nt speak to them as they were the other side of a busy room. Before 10 oclock the two girls got up and started to walk out.
Fred said to them and where are you two off now, and they said we have to be in by 10 oclock, and our billet is near the Cathedral. Fred said do you mind if we walk with you, they said not at all.
We arrived at the large house near the Cathedral now the ATS Headquarters. We chatted for a short time and agreed to meet again the same time tomorrow. I didn’t know at that time I had just met
[Page break]
[Underlined] SQDN CALLSIGN CODES [/underlined]
50 SQDN A/C Pilgrim (B. Baker etc.
Skellingthorpe airfield C/S Black Swan
MORSE CALL SIGNS.
50 Sqdn STB
5 Group A8X
STBB V A8X Radio call from 5 Group
STBB V STB. Radio call from our Sqdn
[Underlined] V means from [/underlined]
my first wife
[Page break]
[Underlined] WAKEY WAKEY TABLETS [/underlined]
Not usually taken until getting airborn.
[Page break]
ITEMS CARRIED IN OUR POCKETS BATTLE DRESS AND BOOTS
French and Dutch money etc.
Emergency high protane food. Ovaltine tablets Water purification tablets
Knife and torch in our boots
The knife to off the tops of our boots
Map of the area (on a silk scarf) more like a large hankerchief
Dead mans rope at rear door
Amputation saw and morphia tablets in first aid cabinet
[Page break]
[Underlined] OCT 1943 [/underlined]
Posted to 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe Lincoln
Crew not up to operation standard
More training needed
Give name of next of kin and address to the orderly room.
[Underlined] NOV 3RD [/underlined] 1943
BEETHAMS SECOND DICKY
TARGET DUSSELDORF
18 Aircraft lost (One of them my brother)
Telegram brother Arthur missing on operation
Mother asking me to come home
Making a promise to our Wing/Co to keep flying
Hoping for an easy operation for our first one
My first wife
[Page break]
1943.
OPERATIONAL FLYING
14 OTU COTTESMORE & MARKET HARBOROUGH
JUNE 1943
Crewing up in hangar Cottesmore
CREW MEMBERS
P/O BEETHAM PILOT
P/O SWINYARD NAV
SGT BARTLETT BOMB AIMER
SGT PAYNE WIRELESS OP.
SGT BALL REAR GUNNER
SGT HIGGINS MID UPPER GUNNER
SGT MOORE FLIGHT ENGINEER
WIRELESS OPS JOB
Change accumulators every morning.
Keep in contact with Base
Care of the inter/comm system.
Assist nav with bearings and fixes
Able to move about aircraft whilst in flight
Astro shots using the sextant
Check all aerials before all flights
Watching Monica screen Pilot had only [word missing] radio communication 10 miles
Jamming enemy radio messages
Demonstrate morse code.
[Page break]
1
22.1.43. LANC JA899 F/O BEETHAM
7.15 [Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
764 Aircraft – 469 Lancs, 234 Halifax’s 50 Stirlings, 11 Mosquitoes. This was the greatest force sent to Berlin so far. But it was also the last raid in which Stirlings were sent to Germany. Bad weather again kept most of the German fighters on the ground and the bomber force was able to take a relatively “straight in” “strait out” route to the target without suffering undue losses. 11 Lancs 10 Halifaxe’s 5 Stirlings 3.4 per cent of the force. Berlin was again completely cloud covered and returning crews could only estimate that the marking and bombing were believed to be accurate, in fact this was the most effective raid on Berlin of the war. A vast area of destruction. The mainly residential areas of Tiergarten and Charlottenburg, the dry weather conditions, several “firestorm” areas were reported and a German plane next day measured the height of the smoke cloud as 6,000 metres nearly 19,00 ft.
It is impossible to give anything like the full details of the damage or to separate completely details from this raid and a smaller one on the next night at least 3,000 houses and 23 industrial premises were completely destroyd, with several thousands of other buildings damaged. It is estimated that 175,000 people were bombed out, more than 50,000 soldiers were brought in to help. From garrisons up to 100KM distance, these were equivalent to nearly three
[Page break]
Army divisions taken from their normal duties.
Interesting entries among the list of buildings destroyed or severely damaged are. The Kaiser Wilhelm Gedachtwiskirche (The Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church, which is now half ruined, half restored, (a major attraction in West Berlin)
The Charlottenburg Castle, the Berlin Zoo, much of the Unter den Linden, the British, French, Italian and Japanese embassies, the Ministry of Weopons and Munitions, the Waffen S.S. Admin College the Barracks of the Imperial Guard at Spandau and, among many industrial premises, 5 factories of the Siemens Group and the Alkett tank works which had recently moved from the Ruhr. It is difficult to give exact casualty figures, an estimated 2,000 people were killed, including 500 in a large shelter in Wilmersdorf which received a direct hit, and 105 people killed in another shelter in Wilmersdorf which was next to the Neukoln gas works where there was a huge explosion.
[Page break]
23.11.43 2
17.05 LANC JA899 F/O BEETHAM
17.05
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN LANDED WITTERING FLAPS U/S. [/underlined]
383 aircraft 365 Lancs 8 Mosquitoes to continue the attack on Berlin. The bombers used the same direct route as had been employed on the previous night. The German controllers made an early identification of Berlin as the probable target. Their single engined fighters were gathered over the city by zero hour and other fighters arrived a few minutes later
Fake instructions broadcast from England caused much annoyance to the German who was giving the running commentary. The Germans started a female commentator but this was mostly counered by a female voice from England ordering the German pilots to land because of fog at their bases. Spoof fighter flares were dropped by Mosquitoes north of the bomber stream also caused some diversions of German effort. Bomber crews noticed that flak over the target was unusually restrained with the German fighters obviously being given priority [Underlined] 20 aircraft all Lancasters were lost 5.2 per cent of the bomber force [/underlined]
The target was again cloud covered and the Pathfinders carried out sky-marking, but many of the main force crews aimed their bombs thro the cloud at the glow of 11 major fires still burning from the previous night. Much further destruction was caused to Berlin but because many of the details of the 2 raids were recorded to-gether by the Germans, it is only possible to say that more than 2,000 further houses 94 wooden barrack buildings and 8 industrial premises and 1 military establishment were destroyed, with many other buildings damaged
Approx 1,400 – 1.500 people were killed on this night.
[Page break]
26.11.43 LANC JA376 F/O BEETHAM
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN DIVERTED MELBOURNE (YORKS) [/underlined]
443 Lancasters 7 Mosquitoes
The Berlin force and the Stuttgart force diversionary flew a common route over Northern France and on nearly to Frankfurt (diversionary) flew a common route over norther France and on nearly to Frankfurt before diverging
The German controllers thought that Frankfurt was the main target until a late stage and several bombers were shot down as they flew past Frankfurt. Only a few fighters appeard over Berlin where flak was the main danger. But the scattered condition of the bomber stream at Berlin meant that bombers were caught by fighters off track on the return flight and the casualties mounted [Underlined] 28 Lancasters were lost 6.2 per cent [/underlined] of the force, and 14 more Lancasters crashed in England. The weather was clear over Berlin, but after their long approach flight from the south, the Pathfinders marked an area 6-7 miles from the city centre (north west) and most aircraft bombed there. Because of Berlins size however most of the bombing fell in the centre and in the Siemen Sstadt (with many electrical factories) and Tegel districts. 38 war industry factories were destroyed, and many more damaged. The now routine destruction of housing and public buildings also took place, but not on such a great scale as on the previous raids to Berlin
The Berlin zoo was heavily bombed on this night many of the animals had been evacuated to zoo’s in other parts of Germany, but the bombing killed most of the remainder, several large and dangerous animals leopards, panthers, jaguars apes – escaped had to be hunted and shot in the streets
[Page break]
Because of the confusion caused by so many raids in a short period, it was only possible for the Germans to record an approximate number of people killed on this night, of about 700-800. The local officials however produce a report in Jan 1944 giving details of combined casualties of the three raids of 22/23 23/24 26/27 November 4,330 were killed of whome the bodies of 574 were never recovered. The districts with the most deaths were Tiergarten 793 Charlottenburg 735 and Wedding 548. The dead were foreign workers and 26 were prisoners of war.
The property damage was extensive with 8,701 dwelling buildings destroyed and several times that number damaged
417,665 lost their homes for more than a month and 36,391 for up to a month
Reaching [underlined] Melbourne [/underlined] Yorks
Still heavy fog Diverted to [underline] Pocklington [/underlined] Yorkshire
We managed to land in heavy fog still,
All aircraft had little fuel left and could not find the runway
They were told to (head your A/C out to sea and bale out
[Boxed] 1 Lancaster ran out of fuel and crashed on a farm house. Killing the farmer & wife only the Lancaster R.G. survived
[Page break]
One night we had to do a very deep dive when another Lancaster that had not seen us came across our path, Mike put our Lancaster into a steep dive to prevent us hitting each other.
After we had settled down and were flying a steady course again, we found that our inter com was not working and we could not speak to each other.
Using my torch I soon found the problem, the inter com battery was not in its place, and the inter com leads were where the battery had left. With a torch I searched along the aircraft and found the battery some distance away. I think the Navigators feet had released the clamp that held the battery in position, and the battery in the steep dive that we did ended up some distance away. Luckily I was able to replace it, and make sure it was clamped down in position.
[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
A relative successful raid on Leipzig during the war
24 Aircraft 15 Halifaxes 9 Lancasters were lost 4.6 per cent of the force
The largest building being taken over by the Junkers aircraft company the former world fair exhibition site whose spacious buildings had been converted to become war factories
[This text in the corner appears in following page text] were severely damaged One place that was hit by a exhibition site, whose spaciou [see following page]
[Page break]
[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
[Underlined] LANDED WITTERING DAMAGED BY JU88 [/underlined]
3.12.43
Our crew were told to collect a Lancaster from RAF Waddington. We must take all our flying kit along with us. After arrival at Waddington we found we had to bomb Leipzig with it first then return the Lancaster to Skellingthorpe.
We thought what a strange way to deliver a Lancaster bomber 4 miles to its new airfield
[Second part of page missing – copy shows text from page beneath transcribed below]
A German nightfighter hit us in the port wing I reported that the wing was on fire. Our FL/t Eng came and looked and said, no its just petrol escaping from the wing tanks.
All the engines were then run from that one tank to save petrol being wasted
[Page break]
[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
[Underlined] LANDED WITTERING DAMAGED BY JU88 [/underlined]
[Underlined] 3.12.43 SHORT OF FUEL. (TANKS SHOT UP) [/underlined]
527 Aircraft. 307 Lancasters 220 Halifax’s
Despite the loss of two press men on the previous night the well known American broadcaster Ed Morrow flew on the raid with 619 Sqdn Lancaster crew, he returned safely. The bomber force took another direct route towards Berlin before turning off to bomb Leipzig
German fighters were in the bomber stream and scoring successes befor the turn was made but most of them were then directed to Berlin when the Mosquito diversion opened there.
There were few fighters over Leipzig and only 3 bombers are believed to have been lost in the target area 2 of them being shot down by flak
A relative sucessful raid from the point of view of bomber casualties, was spoiled when many aircraft flew by mistake into th Frankfurt defended area on the long southern withdrawal route and more than half of the bombers shot down this night were lost 4.6 per cent of the force
The Pathfinders found and marked this distant inland target accurately and the bombing was very effective This was the most sucsessful raid on Leipzig during the war a large area of housing and many industrial premises were severely damaged One place that was hit by a large number of bombs was the former world fair exhibition site whose spacious buildings had been conserved to become war factories
[Page break]
The Wehrmacht suffered damage to 4 flak positions, a clothing store, a veterinary depot and the Army Music School. 64 people were killed and 111 were missing or still covered by wreckage. 23,000 were bombed out. A train standing six miles south of Frankfurt was hit by a 4,000lb bomb and 13 people in it were killed.
Part of the bombing some how fell on Mainz 17 miles to the west and many houses along the Rhine water front and in southern suburbs were hit. 14 people were killed
We circled arround Wittering with little or no fuel left in our tanks, the Wittering phone R/T operator repeated saying the landing lights will soon be on, we waited an waited
Eventually the landing lights did come on and we were able to land with almost empty fuel tanks.
When we entered the Wittering mess we could see what the delay had been to get the landing lights on, as no one was on duty at their watch office, they were all attending the party.
A few years ago, giving our landing date and time to a serving RAF officer, he contacted me and said there was no mention in their flying control log book of our landing that night
Myself and two other crew members stood near the open back door with parachutes on as soon as the engines cut we would jump.
[Page break]
20.12.43 LANCASTER G ED588.
[Underlined] OPERATIONS FRANKFURT [/underlined]
650 Aircraft 390 Lancasters 257 Halifax’s
14 Lancasters lost
The German control room were able to plot the bomber force as soon as it left the English coast and were able to continue plotting it all the way to Frankfurt. There were many combats on the route to the target. The Mannheim diversion did not draw fighters away from the main attack until after the raid was over. But the return flight was quieter
41 aircraft – [underlined] 27 Halifax’s 14 Lancasters lost 6.3 per cent of the force [/underlined]
The bombing of Frankfurt did no go according to plan. The Pathfinders had prepared a ground marking plan on the basis of a forcast giving clear weather but they found up to 8/10 cloud. The Germans lit decoy fires 5 miles south east of the city and also used dummy target indicators. Some of the bombing fell arround the decoy, but part of the creepback fell on Frankfurt causing more damage than bomber command realized at the time. 466 houses were completely distroyd and 1,948 seriously damaged. In Frankfurt and in the outlying townships of Sachsenhausen and Offenbach 117 bombs hit various industrial premises but no important factories are mentioned. The report stresses the large number of cultural, historical, and public buildings hit, including the cathedral, the city library, the city hospital and no fewer than 69 schools.
[Page break]
[Underlined] JU88 SHOT DOWN [/underlined]
One night I felt the aircraft start to rise as the engines were open’d up I heard Les our bomb aimer on the inter com say to our mid upper gunner (Jock Higgins) not yet Jock I’ll say when.
He then said OK Jock [underlined] NOW. [/underlined]
By that time I was standing in the astro dome and looking above and in front of our aircraft I could see a German J.U.88 night fighter, flying in front of us, and a little above us.
Our bombaimer Les Bartlett suddenly said Jock now, with that they both open’d fire on the night fighter Ju88.
I noticed that Les seem’d to be spraying the nightfighter from side to side with his twin browning machine guns, but Jock Higgins with the same two machine guns was sending a constant stream of bullets up in the area of the nightfighter where the two crew members would be seated. The German night fighter flew for some time being riddled with bullets until it turned over and started to go down
I would think that it was Sgt Higgins that killed the two German crew members and caused the J.U.88 to crash with continuous firing in the cockpit area. As Les Bartlett was an office, he received ta medal for his efforts, but I still think it was Jock Higgins that brought the aircraft down.
Jock Higgins rec’d nothing
[Page break]
29.12.43
[Underlined] 7.25 [/underlined]
1707 LM428.
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN INCENDIARY THROUGH STARBOARD OUTBOARD TANK [/underlined]
712 Aircraft, 457 Lancasters, 252 Halifaxes 3 Mosquitoes.
A long approach route from the south, passing south of the Ruhr and then within 20 miles of Leipzig. Together with Mosquito diversions at Dusseldorf, Leipzig and Magdeburg causes the German controller great difficulties and there were few fighters over Berlin. Bad weather on the outward route also kept down the number of German fighters finding the bomber stream
[Underlined] 20 Aircraft 11 Lancasters 9 Halifaxes 2.8 per cent [/underlined] of the force lost
Berlin was again cloud covered, the bomber command report claiming a concentrated attack on skymarkers is not confirmed by the local report. The heaviest bombing was in the southern and south eastern districts but many bombs also fell to the east of the city
388 houses and other mixed property were destroyed but no item of major interest is mentioned.
182 people were killed, more than 600 were injured and over 10,000 were bombed out
[Page break]
REAR DOOR OPEN
The rear end of the Lancaster near the rear gunners position is one of the coldest parts of the aircraft, but one night our rear gunner said he was freezing in his position at the rear of the aircraft.
I soon found the problem when I got to the rear of the aircraft, the main entrance door was open, and the freezing cold air was coming straight in.
With gloves on I tried to close the the door, but with a two hundred mile wind rushing thro the door way it would’nt close. The Flight Eng came down to help me, but even the two of us could not close it.
We managed to get it partly closed leaving a small gap and tying it back with the dead mans rope The dead mans rope is a long length of rope near the rear door, should one of our crew be unlucky to have one of his legs or arms chopped off the rope was to tie a torch or a lamp on him, and with a parachute on push him out of this back door and hope people will see him coming down and rush him to hospital before he dies.
With the rope we still could nt close the door properly and had to push some heavy clothing into the door cracks to keep out the biting cold wind coming in the aircraft.
Whilst doing this work at the rear of the aircraft we had porable oxygen bottles round our necks all the time, or we would have passed out threw lack of oxygen.
Gloves on hands or you would loose the skin if you touched the bare metal
[Page break]
1.1.44 OPS BERLIN
23.44
LANCASTER
M/ME 567 [Underlined] 421 LANCASTERS [/underlined] 8.15
German fighters were directed to the bomber stream at an early stage and were particularly active between 2. Route markers on the way to Berlin
The German controller was not deceived by the Mosquito feint at Hamburg. But his fighters were not effective over Berlin. Only 2 bombers being shot down by fighters there, and the local flak was probably restricted to the height at which it could fire and the guns only shot down 2 bombers over the target.
[Underlined] 28 Bombers were lost 6.7 per cent of the force. [/underlined]
The target area was covered in cloud and the accuracy of the sky marking soon deteriorated
The Berlin report says that there was scattered bombing mainly in the southern parts of the city.
A large number of bombs fell in the Grunewald, an extensive wooded area in the south west of Berlin only 21 houses and 1 industrial building were destroyed with 79 people being killed. A high explosive bomb hit a lock on an important canal and stopped shipping at that area for several days
14.1.44 LANCASTER B.LL744
[Underlined] F/O BEETHAM OPS BRUNSWICK [/underlined]
496 Lancasters and 2 Halifaxes on the first major
[Page break]
We always took of with us a thousand or 2 [underlined] thousand pound overload [/underlined]
As we left the runway the long flames from the exhausts rose over the leading edge of the wings burning the [inserted] paint [/inserted] off the wings I knew there was 2,000 gallons of high grade petrol in tanks under all those flames
[Page break]
Raid to [underlined] Brunswick [/underlined] of the war [underlined] 38 Lancasters were lost [/underlined] 7.6 per cent of the force.
The German running commentary was heard following the progress of the bomber force from a position only 40 miles from the English coast, and many German fighters entered the bomber stream soon after the German frontier was crossed near Bremen. The German fighters scored steadily until the Dutch coast was crossed on the return flight. 11 of the lost aircraft were Pathfinders. Brunswick was smaller than bomber commands usual targets and this raid was not a success. The city report describes this only as a “light raid” with bombs in the south of the city which had only 10 houses destroyed and 14 people killed. Most of the attack fell either in the countryside or in Wolfenbuttel and other small towns and villages well to the south of Brunswick.
20.1.44 LANCASTER B/LL744
F/O BEETHAM [/underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
[Underlined] 769 Aircraft. 495 Lancasters [/underlined] 264 Halifax’s [underlined] 10 Mosquito’s. [/underlined]
35 Aircraft 22 Halifax’s 13 Lancasters were lost 4.6 per cent of the force
102 Sqdn from Pocklington lost 5 of its 16 Halifaxes on this raid, 2 more crashed in England ->
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A CLEAR NIGHT OVER BERLIN
I think my first clear night over Berlin made me realize the terrible bombing coditions that the German folk were having to face
Looking down on Berlin from 3 or 4 miles high, I could see thousands of incendiary bombs burning on the ground. The large wide roads of Berlin showed like a large map
Every few minutes a huge explosion would take place along one of the roads wiping out part of the road plan.
These large explosions were the 4,000lb blast bombs which all the Lancasters carried (known by the RAF men as cookies)
I could see a wide road thro the streets of Berlin, quite clearly with the houses on fire on both sides, then a 4,000lb cookie would drop on the road, and a dark patch would appear where it had left no buildings standing.
Red and green incendiary bombs were still raining down and the RAF Pathfinder men were telling the bomber crews which ones they were to aim at.
I could look at a long wide road thro Berlin, houses on both sides alive with incendiary bombs buring, then a 4,000pb cookie hits the area and leaves a black space.
The master bomber above is shouting out to the aircraft aim at the reds not the greens.
We were expected to sleep when we got to out huts
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-> and the squadron would lose 4 more aircraft in the next nights raid
The bomber approach route took a wide swing to the north but once again the German controller manage to feed his fighters into the bomber stream early and the fighters scored steadily until the force was well on the way home. The diversions were not large enough to deceive the Germans
The Berlin areas was, as son often completely cloud covered and what happened to the bombing is a mystery. The Pathfinder sky marking appeared to go according to plan and the crews who were scanning the ground with their H2S sets believed that the attack fell on the eastern districts of Berlin. No major navigational problems were experienced.
No photographic reconnaissance was possible until after a further 4 raids on Berlin were carried out but the various sources from which the Berlin reports are normally drawn all show a complete blank for this night. It is not known whether this is because of some order issued by the German authorities to conceal the extent of the damage, or whether the entire raid missed Berlin
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[Underlined] 1,000lb BOMB IN BOMB BAY [/underlined]
One early morning after we had been on an operation we taxied the Lancaster back to our usual dispersal point at Skellingthorpe
The engines were shut down and all was quiet as we started collecting our loose flying kit together.
Suddenly we heard a large thud and at first we though a van had bumped into us. Then there was the sound of something rolling along the side of the aircraft.
Our bomb aimer Les Bartlett opened his bomb bay inspection door and was shocked at what he saw.
A thousand pound bomb had fell from from its station on to the bomb bay doors and it had rolled down the sloping bomb bay and had crashed at the rear of the bomb bay.
We did’nt know if it was still live and had to warn the ground crews, unless they opened to bomb bay doors where it would fall out.
We never did know how they made it all safe.
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[Underlined] OPS BERLIN SPOOF ATTACK [/underlined]
27.1.44
[Underlined] F/LT BEETHAM [/underlined]
[Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
515 Lancasters and 15 Mosquitoes
The German fighters were committed to action earlier than normal, some being sent out 75 miles over the North Sea from the Dutch coast. But the elaborate feints and diversions had some effect. Half of the German fighters were lured north by the Heligoland mining diversion and action in the main bomber stream was less intense than on recent nights.
33 Lancasters lost 6.4 per cent.
The target was cloud covered again and sky marking had to be used again. Bomber command was not able to make any assessment of the raid except to state that the bombing appeared to have been spread over a wide area, although many bombs fell in the southern half of the city, less in the north but 61 small towns and villages outside the city limits were also hit. With 28 people being killed in these places. Details of houses in Berlin are not available but it is known that nearly 20,000 people were bombed out. 50 industrial premises were hit and several important war industries suffered serious damage.
567 people were killed including 132 foreign workers.
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[Underlined] FOG OVER AIRFIELD ON RETURN [/underlined]
All with little fuel left
Most sqdns sent up 20 A/C to target
2 Sqdns on each airfield (approx.) 36 A/C Each A/C had little more than 20 mins fuel left [underlined] No 1 [/underlined] would ask permision to land.
He was told to orbit at 3,000ft and as he circled he had to shout his position on the circuit such as (railway bridge) (cross roads) (Thompson’s farm) (reservoir)
As he circled he was called to decen’d to 2,000ft but still had to shout his number and position as he circled the airfield
Finally he was called down to 1,00 F shouting his position on the circuit No 1 down wind, then No 1 funnels No 1 touching down, then No 1 clear
No 2 would follow behind shouting out their positions on the circuit. Followed by No 3 doing the same
By shouting out their number and position and height the controller called them down
All crew’s had then to go to de-briefing
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[Underlined] INSTRUCTING W/OPS [/underlined]
[Underlined] SILVERSTONE & TURWESTON [/underlined]
JUNE 1944 TILL END OF WAR
Of the 4319 men in the A/C shot downn attacking only [underlined] 992 [/underlined] survived 22.9 per cent.
On take off with 2,000lb overload
100 miles per hour were needed for take off
A gate stopped the throttle.
If the speed was not fast enough the pilot would say to the enineer [underlined] thro the gate [/underlined] and the gate was open’d to give more power
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[Underlined] INTERNATIONAL DISTRESS [/underlined] SIGNAL.
[Underlined] SOS [/underlined]
ˑˑˑ / --- / ˑˑˑ
You would be told to divert to another airfield if there was fog over Lincolnshire where our airfield is. And stay there with the aircraft
[Underlined] DIVERSIONS F.I.D.O [/underlined]
[Underlined] FOG INTENSIVE DISPERSAL OF [/underlined]
[Underlined] FISKERTON 49 [/underlined] SQDN.
[Underlined] ASTRO DOME (FOR NAVIGATOR [/underlined] degrees & minutes
[Underlined] USING A SEXTANT. [/underlined]
Taking astro shots of the stars.
[Underlined] Polaris Bennet Nash Dubhi [/underlined]
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2
Switch off IFF (Identity Friend or Foe)
Continuous watch on Monica screen
Listen out on given wave band for German speech
Tune my transmitter and jamb any speech
Wind in trailing aerial when over the cost [underlined] German [/underlined]
Pass bundles of window down to Flight Engineer
Transmit height and wind speed back to base. Details from Navigator.
Keep watching Monica screen whilst listening for German speech on given wave band
Obtain bearing from given [inserted] radio [/inserted] beacon for Nav, using loop aerial
Take hot coffee to the two Gunners
On clear nights, obtain sextant shots of given stars asked for by Navigator
On run up to target get in astro dome and watch for any bombers above us
Receive messages from base. Decode them & pass to pilot
Send more winds back to base. Our Nav is a wind finder
Shout out [underlined] contact [/underlined when a blip comes on Monica screen
Keep searching for German R/T speech.
After leaving enemy coast, let out trailing aerial
Switch on IFF when near English coast
Place colours of the day cartridges in Very pistol
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3
Wind in trailing aerial crossing the English coast
If a diversion message is received on reachin the English coast, contact the diversion airfield and obtain a [underlined] QDM [/underlined] for the Navigator.
A QDM, is a coarse to steer to take you to the airfield.
You have to stay there with the aircraft. No washing or shaving equip. money or pygamas etc. Some times for two or three days if our aircraft needs work on it to be carried out
After landing you have to attend debriefing where you are asked a lot of questions before getting any sleep.
[Underlined] WHEN LOST. DARKY WATCH [/underlined]
“Hello” Darky”
Hello Darky
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4
[Underlined] SKELLINGTHORPE SITE [/underlined]
No washing arrangements were available on our living quarters site. Just toilet & sleeping quarters All shaving & showers etc were in the Seargeans Mess. All toilet items kept in small haversack hanging on peg’s. After a few weeks we were told to remove our toilet haversacks for one day only.
The ones still on the pegs were the property of the men missing
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[Underlined] CANADIAN AIRMEN. [/underlined]
Three NCO members of our crew were housed in a tin hut at Skellingthorpe
We had the hut to ourselves.
Arriving back after our leave, three extra beds were in the hut occupies by three Canadians
They were very generous, and told us to help ourselves from all the boxes of food arround the hut. Tins and packages all arround us.
The S.W.O. Station Warrant Officer came in and looking at it all said, I will be in this hut ever night at 7 oclock and if it is [inserted] not [/inserted] clean and tidy you wont be allowed out until it is. We had to wait for his insection every evening before we could visit Ena and Joan in Lincoln
A short time after the Canadians were shot down over Germany, all their contents were taken away and the hut was tidy again
The S.W.O. then said we could go out in our own time he would not visit us again. It probably took the death of three nice Canadians to allow Fred and myself to take Ena & Joan for an early meal.
And they were taken away
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Whilst flying over Germany I would search a wave band on my radio.
I would listen for German speech sounding like giving orders to people.
I would tune my transmitter to that frequency and prese my morse key.
This would transmit the noise of one of our aircraft engines on that frequency as there was a microphone in that engine
On one long German operation, bad weather was forecast for our return over Lincoln and we were told to land St. Eval, Cornwall Some hours later I received another message which said cancel the previous message return to base.
Our Wing Commanders wireless operator did’nt get this message and he landed in Cornwall. On his return to Skellingthorpe, crowds of aircrew members line’d the runway to cheer him in.
At our next briefing, the Wing Co. said Wireless Operators make sure you get all the messages from Group, not like some clot that dos’nt get them. Jagger his Wireless Op got up and said, if that’s what you think of me you can get someone else to fly with you[inserted] tonight sir [/inserted] and with that he then left the room to go,
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28.1.44
LANCASTER B/LL744 [Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
677 Aircraft [Underlined] 432 Lancasters 241 Halifaxes 4 Mosquito’s [/underlined]
Part of the German fighter force was drawn up by the early diversions and the bomber approach route over northern Denmark proved too distant for some of the other German fighters. The German controller was however able to concentrate his fighters over the target and many aircraft were shot down there [underlined] 46 aircraft 26 Halifax’s 20 Lancasters [/underlined] lost 6.8 per cent of the force
The cloud over Berlin was broken and some ground marking was possible, but the bomber command claim that this was the most concentrated attack of this period is not quite fully confirmed by German records.
The western and southern districts were hit but so too were 77 places out side the city. The Berlin recording system was now showing an increasing deterioration no overall figure for property damage was recorded Approximately 180,000 people were bombed out on this night. Although many industrial firms were again hit the feature of the night is the unusually high proportion of administrative and public buildings appearing in the list of buildings hit. The new Chancellery, 4 theatres, the French Cathedral, 6 hospitals, 5 embassies, the state patent office etc, the report concludes with the entry the casualties are still not known
RAF Police came forward to stop him and the Wing Co. said let him go.
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28.1.44
LANCASTER B/LL744 [Underlined] OPS BERLIN [/underlined]
677 Aircraft [Underlined] 432 Lancasters 241 Halifaxes 4 Mosqioto’s [/underlined]
Part of the German fighter force was drawn up by the early diversions and the bomber approach route over northern Denmark proved too distant for some of the other German fighters. The German controller was however able to concentrate his fighters over the target and many aircraft were shot down there [underlined] 46 aircraft 26 Halifax’s 20 Lancasters [/underlined] lost 6.8 per cent of the force
The cloud over Berlin was broken and some ground marking was possible, but the bomber command claim that this was the most concentrated attack of this period is not quite fully confirmed by German records.
The western and southern districts were hit but so too were 77 places outside the city. The Berlin recording system was now showing an increasing deterioration no overall figure for property damage was recorded Approximately 180,000 people were bombed out on this night. Although many industrial firms were again hit the feature of the night is the unusually high proportion of administrative and public buildings appearing in the list of buildings hit. The new Chancellery, 4 theatres, the French Cathedral, 6 hospitals, 5 embassies, the state patent office etc, the report concludes with the entry the casualties are still not known but they are bound to be considerable. It is reported that a vast amount of wreckage must still be clearid. Rescue workers are among the mountains of it. *Report os Technischen Nothilfe Gau 111-Berlin Berlin and Brandenburg. In Berlin City Archives
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Reg Payne flew with 91 different pilots during his service in the RAF
Flew with Sir Michael Beetham as pilot 108 times
362 official flights were made during his RAF service, plus a lot of unofficial flights not recorded in his log book
After one operation after returning to our dispersal, and switching everything off a 1,000lb bomb came detatched from its moring in the bomb bay, luckily the bomb bay doors were closed. It rolled down the bomb bay and made a clonk as it reached the bottom. We don’t know how the ground crew delt with it.
During one operation the gunners complained how cold it was, I was asked to look into this. Going to the rear of the A/C I saw that the rear door was open. It could not be closed agains the slip stream but we tied it up as close as we could, and then pushed spare heavy flying clothing in the small gaps.
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[Underlined] KENSINGTON ALBERT HALL [/underlined]
Wireless instruction in Science Museum.
Meals in Victoria & Albert Museum
Bedrooms in Albert Court next to Hall
“P.T.” in Albert Hall (boxing) etc.
Football in Kensington Gardens
[Underlined] BOXING ALBERT HALL [/underlined]
P.T. instructor sort us out in pairs boxing gloves on.
Instructor shouts Get stuck into each other or I’ll get stuck in to the pair of you
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[Underlined] FIRST OPERATION BERLIN [/underlined]
[Underlined] 16.45 hrs [/underlined]
2,000lb overload Beetham spared this
NOV 22ND 764 A/C 7HRS 15MINS
26 A/C Lost 169 killed
Dispersal 1 hour before take off
Check all aerials/W/T./Monica./SBA/IFF/Trailing/Gee/Loop
[Underlined] Gunners getting ready [/underlined]
[Underlined] 17.05hrs BERLIN AGAIN [/underlined] Trailing aerial out [underlined] over the [/underlined] sea
NOV 23rd. [Underlined] IFF switched on [/underlined]
383 A/C 7hrs 45 mins
Navigator reading airspeeds at take off flames from exhausts 20 A/C lost [underlined] while taking off [/underlined]
130 killed
[Underlined] ON LANDING [/underlined]
Flaps frozen up, [Underlined] Refused landing [/underlined] Diverted to RAF Wittering
Bath ready in the morning
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[Underlined] 3RD OPERATION [/underlined]
NOV 26TH [Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
17.20HRS
443 A/C 8HRS 5MINS
28 A/C lost 202 killed
[Underlined] Fog over Lincoln [/underlined] 14 damaged beyond repair
Diverted to Melbourne (Yorks)
[Underlined] Fog also over Melbourne [/underlined]
5 A/C crashed landing
Head your A/C out to sea and B.O.
Back to Skellingthorpe 2 days later
K King hit farm house. Farmer and wife killed
Only rear gunner survived
No cash or shaving kit on operation toothe brush etc.
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3 times to Berlin in 5 nights
Cold bed at nights thinking about it.
EXTRACT FROM OFFICIAL GERMAN RECORDS ABOUT BERLIN RAID NOV 22ND
The most effective raid of the war on Berlin 3,000 houses and 23 industrial premises were completely destroyed with several thousands of other buildings damaged
175,000 people were bombed out
More than 50,000 soldiers were brought in to help from garrisons up to 100KM distance. Equivalent to three army divisions taken from their normal duties
Buildings destroyed or severely damaged are the Kaiser Wilhelm, Memorial Church (now a memorial) the Charlottenburg Castle, the Berlin Zoo, much of the Unter den Linden, the British, French, Italian, and Japanese embassies. The Ministry of Weapons and Munitions, the Waffen SS. admin college. The barracks of the Imperial Guard at Spandau, and many industrial premises inc. 5 factories of the Siemens Group, and the Alkett tank works, recently removed from the Ruhr. 2,000 people killed inc 500 in a large shelter which received a direct hit, and 105 people in another shelter near the gas works, where there was a huge explosion.
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[Underlined] DEC 3rd [/underlined] 0023 HRS 527 A/C
[Underlined] LEIPZIG [/underlined 7HRS 50MINS
24 A/C lost 120 killed
Damaged by JU88 Fuel tanks ruptured short of fuel
Landed at Wittering
Officers Mess party no landing lights
Bath in the morning (much better conditions than at Skellingthorpe)
DEC 20TH 17.26 HRS 41 A/C Lost 193 killed
[Underlined] FRANKFURT [/underlined] 5HRS 40MINS
A/C G ED588 Did over 100 operations
DEC 29TH 17.07 HRS
[Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined] 20 A/C lost 79 killed
30lb phosphorous incendiary thro stbrd outer fuel tank.
We didn’t know about it.
Wing/Co took Beetham out to A/C after breakfast to show him hole in wing
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[Underlined] JAN 1ST 1944 [/underlined] 23.44HRS NEW YEARS DAY 421 A/C.
BERLIN 8HRS 15MINS
28 A/C lost
Had to take the mid upper an axe spare mid upper smashes Perspex of turret Turret perspex frozen over
JAN 5TH 0005HRS STETTIN (TOUCHING SWEDEN)
358 A/C 8HRS 40MINS 16 A/C lost
Lancaster was fired on from another Lancaster
JAN 14TH 17.15HRS BRUNSWICK
498 A/C 5HRS 10MIN 38 A/C lost
Freda and Joans Lincoln Imps
Fred R/G forgot Lincoln Imp whilst on peri track.
Van driver collected it before take off
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JAN 20TH [Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
16.35HRS
769 A/C 7HRS 35 A/C lost
Coned by searchlights Inter.comm battery became loose
No sound on inter com
2,400 tons of bombs dropped
Collected the HT battery from rear of A/C and re connected it
JAN 21st 19.51 HRS
22 A/C [Underlined] berlin [/underlined] spoof attack → 1 A/C lost
Main operation Magdeburg → 66 A/C lo
7 HRS 25MINS
Back door open. [Underlined] Tie up with rope Would not close. Slipstream [/underlined]
Dead mans rope at the rear door
Torch and knife in boots
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FEB 25TH 18.35 HRS
[Underlined] AUGSBURG [/underlined]
594 A/C 8HRS 21 A/C lost.
Oil temperature much too high on one engine
Returned on 3 engines
Oil temp guage U/S
Nothing wrong with engine
Mike Beetham flying Lancasters promoted to Flight [inserted] LTD [/inserted] Commander
Could not drive car
Help from WAAFs.
1ST MARCH 23.19 HRS
[Underlined] STUTTGART [/underlined]
594 A/C 8HRS 10MINS 4 A/C lost
Thick cloud on route and over target
Night fighters unable to locate bomber stream
Much damage to Stuttgart
[Underlined] On the bomb run left left etc. [/underlined]
[Underlined] Bomb doors open Very cold draught when open. [/underlined]
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JAN 27TH 17.17 HRS
[Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined
530 A/C 8.55 MINS 33 A/C lost
Off inter comm. High engine rev’s
Les and Jock attack Ju88
Of Les gets DFM, Jock goth nothing
JAN 28TH 0021 HRS
[Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined
677 A/C 7HRS 55MINS 46 A/C lost
Washing & shaving items
Haversacks collected from Sgts mess from airmen missing
19TH FEB 23.55 HRS
[Underlined] LEIPZIG [/underlined
823 A/C 7HRS 78 A/C lost
Returning home over North Sea (dawn reduce hight to stay in the dark
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12.2.44
[Underlined] FIGHTER AFFILIATION [/underlined]
12.2.44 We were detailed to fly a short distance up into Yorkshire and to meet up with a Spitfire, who would contact us and when ready would continue to dive on us and give us advice on our defensive moves. In our Lancaster we had our full crew of seven personel, plus another pilot and his two gunners.
Our pilot Sir Michael Beetham decided that he and our two gunners would do the exercise first. With our two gunners in the turrets and Michael in the pilots seat, the attacks began all of them ending in the Lancaster doing cork screws to prevent the Spitfire from shooting him down. After 10 or 15 mins, the other pilot took over from Michael, and his gunners made for the turrets.
When all was ready the Spitfire came in for it first attack, the Lancaster went into a steep dive. I don’t think I have ever dived so steep before in a Lancaster, and so fast. On pulling out of the dive I noticed smoke round the port outer engine, and then there were flames.
Michael shouted a warning on the inter com and to our flight eng to use the fire extinwishes
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With the extinuish’s working the flames vanished, with just smoke and steam, however once the extinguisher was empty the flames came back again, and seemed to be spreading down the wing. From the port outer engine the wing was on fire, and as the fire extinguisher was now finished and the fire spreading down the wing Michael gave the order to abandon the aircraft.
With ten crew members on board there was a move to the two exits, my pilot and navigator baled out at the nose exit, followed by the other pilot.
The rear door was open and Jock Higgins our M.U.G. baled out there, Les Bartlett our B.A. also left from there, when I arrived at the rear door they made way for me to go next. I had just left looking at the large fire in the port wing and I knew it was about to break off. I baled out.
Looking down I could only see 10 tenth cloud 3,000ft below me and I did’nt know if we were still over the Humber Estury
As I was falling to earth I found I was pulling one of the canvas handles and not the metal release handle. With the correct handle my chute opened, and looking up I saw part of the port wing following me down Also I could see the coast and I was drifting towards it. At the same time I heard the crash as the Lancaster crashed a few miles in land. I was drifting towards the Lincoln
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shore, and I could see all the smoke drifting up in the sky from where it crashed
I made a soft landing in a field quite near East Kirkby airfield, quite close to where the Lancaster crashed. I was told that four of the crew were still in the aircraft when it went down. And I was asked if I would help them decide which body was who. As they were so badly crushed I did’nt want to go near them
[Underlined] REG [/underlined]
The four airmen killed were the other pilots 2 gunners.
Also our rear gunner Fred Ball our flight eng Don Moore
Fred Ball and Joan
Reg and Ena
The two ATS girls
Fred Ball was due to take Joan home to his house in [missing word] on their next leave together. But that was no longer possible
But Reg & Ena found it drew them closer together
[Underlined] Reg was made a member of the Caterpillar Club. [/underlined] Irving parachute.
[Pgae break]
19.2.44
[Underlined] OPERATIONS LEIPZIG [/underlined]
19.2.44 823 Aircraft 561 Lancaster 255 Halifax’s 7 Mosquitoes,
44 Lancasters and 34 Halifax’s lost 9.5 per cent of the force. The Halifax loss rate was 13.3 per cent of those dispatched and 14.9 per cent of those Halifaxes which reached the enemy coast after early returns had turned back. The Halifax 2’sand 5’s were permanently withdrawn from operations to Germany after this raid.
This was an unhappy raid for bomber command.
The German controllers only sent part of their force of fighters to te Kiel minelaying diversion. When the main bomber force crossed the Dutch coast they were met by a further part of the German fighter force and those German fighters which had been sent north to Kiel hurriedly returned. The bomber stream was this under attack all the way to the target. There were further difficulties at the target because winds were not as forcast and many aircraft reached the Leipzig area too early and had to orbit and await the Pathfinders. 4 aircraft were lost by collision and approximately 20 were shot down by flak.
Leipzig was cloud covered and the Pathfinders had to use sky marking. The raid appeared to be concentrated in its early stages but scattered later. There are few details of the effects of the bombing. No report is available from Germany and there was no immediate post raid reconnaissance flight. When photographs were eventually taken they included the results of an American raid which took place on the following day.
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Reg Payne flew with 91 different pilots during his RAF service
Flew with Sir Michael Beetham his pilot 108 times
362 official flights made during his RAF service. Plus a large no of unofficial flights not recorded in his log book
After my operational flying at Skellingthorpe as a rest period I was sent to RAF Silverstone No 14 OTU, an Operational Training Unit
This made it rather difficult for me to see my ATS sweetheart in Lincoln.
I always visited her on my days off in Lincoln. Arriving back in the train one evening, I left the railway station at Brackley quite close to my airfield at Turweston. My bike was left chained to the station railings ready for me to ride back to Turweston a short distance away. A WAAF was in the same rail coach as me, she also was based with me, and worked in our Sgts mess. I asked her how she was getting to our airfield a couple of miles away. She said walk I suppose. I had my bike with me & she was please when I offered her a ride on my cross bar. All went well until near the airfield down a dark unlit lane, the pedals of my bike dug into the grass and we both ended up in the ditch. Luckily we were both not hurt, but decided we would walk the rest of the way, and I left her at the gates of the WAAFs site
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Having all my meals in the Sgts mess, I thought I would see her again, and finally I asked one of the WAAFs if she was working there still. She smiled at me and said not any more, I then said why not, she then shook me and said, she’s had a dishonourable discharge, I asked what ever for, and she replied, she has had a mis-carriage and is in hospital. I could only think our bike accident was the cause of it. I never met her again.
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[Underlined] OPS. AUGSBURG. RETURNED ON 3 ENGINES [/underlined]
25.2.44 23.55 Lancaster B LL744
F/Lt Beetham W.OP.
[Underlined] OPS LEIPZIG [/underlined 7.0PM
823 Aircraft – 561 Lancasters 255 Halifax’s 7 Mosquito’s 44 Lancaster and 34 Halifaxes lost 9.5 per cent of the force The Halifax loss rate was 13.3 per cent of those dispatched and 14.9 per cent of those Halifaxes which reached the enemy coast after early returns had turned back. The Halifax IIs and Vs were permanently withdrawn from operations to Germany after this raid
This was an unhappy raid for bomber command, the German controllers only sent part of their force of fighters to the Kiel minelaying diversion. When the main bomber force crossed the Dutch coast they were met by a further part of the German fighter force and those German fighter which had been sent north to Kiel hurriedly returned.
The bomber stream was thus under attack all the way to the target. There were further difficulties at the target because winds were not as forecast and many aircraft reached the Leipzig area too early and had to orbit and await the Pathfinders. 4 aircraft were lost by collision and approximately 20 were shot down by flak
Leipzig was cloud covered and the Pathfinders had to use sky marking. The raid appeared to be concentrated in its early stages but scattered later. There are few details of the effects of the bombing. No report is available from Germany and there was no immediate post raid reconnaissance flight, when photographs were eventually taken they included the results
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BALING OUT OF THE LANCASTER
In a short time the whole port wing had flames along it, and Michael Beetham gave the order for us to bale out
With ten members of the crew in the aircraft we all had to move swiftly
Les Bartlett our bomb aimer left the astro dome where he had been filming the spitfire and baled out of the rear door followed by Jock Higgins. My pilot and navigator baled out of the front escape hatch
I made my way to the rear exit and baled out, below me all I could see was cloud, we were at 6,000ft, I did’nt know if we were over the Humber Estury or over land. We did not have Mae Wests on
As I was floating down on my chute, part of the port wing was above, luckily it passed by me.
Unfortunately the Australians two gunners didn’t bale out and were both killed
Worst of all our flight eng did not bring his chute because he told it was only a local flight
I think our rear gunner waited to late to jump.
Don our flight eng didn’t stand a chance He said he had not taken his parachute because it was only a training flight
Some time later after I had left the RAF, a friend of mine from East Kirkby took me to the crash side. We dug up a human pelvis and lots of metal that I had melted down and made into small Lancasters
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9TH MARCH 20.42 HRS
[Underlined] MARSEILLES FRANCE [/underlined]
No A/C lost.
44 A/C of 5. Group. 8hrs 55mins
AIRCRAFT FACTORY BOMBED 10,000FT.
Practice flight before op with Air/Comm Hesketh Flew over target to get French workers clear before bombing
24TH MAR. [Underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
811 a/c 7hrs 20mins 72 A/C lost
FOG OVER LINCOLNSHIRE LANDED FOULSHAM (NORFOLK
Tea with rum Massive searchlight & birds 2.30am.
[Underlined] EXPLAIN DARKY PROCEDURE [/underlined]
26TH MARCH 44 19.50HRS
[Underlined] ESSEN [/underlined]
705 A/C 5hrs 5mins 9 A/C lost
Jock pinching coal from compound
Bombs make a metalic jolt as each one leaves
[Page break]
30TH MARCH 19.50HRS
[Underlined] NUREMBURG [/underlined]
[Underlined] BELGUIM [/underlined]
795 A/C 7hrs 45mins 95 A/C lost
5 Northants airmen killed on this op.
Kettering man Arthur Johnson killed with all his crew
4 of our Sqdn were missing
Trevor Roper Gibsons R/G on the dams raid was killed
60 miles of burning A/C across Belgium
Aircraft flying in bright moonlight
200 mile strait leg to north of the target leaving large contrails behind
60 A/C lost
5TH APRILX 20.31 [underlined] TOULOUSE [/underlined] 6HRS 55 MINS
144 A/C of 5 Group [underlined] AIRCRAFT FACTORY [/underlined]
One aircraft exploded over the target.
The factory was severely damaged but 22 people killed in houses near by
[Page break]
[Underlined] HUMBER ESTUARY [/underlined]
12TH FEB [underlined] FIGHTER AFFILIATION [/underlined]
Baled out at 6,00ft
Pilot P.O. Jennings RAAF & two gunners
Les and his camera
Don [inserted] Moore [/inserted] No parachute
Jock on the tail
Me pulling wrong handle
Over the sea or over the land Baling out watching Don Moore (no parachute)
Large reservoir
P/O Jennings in the trees
Tablets from M.O.
Ena ringing Sgts mess
Looking over at Freds bed that night
Freds Lincoln Imp on tunic (not wearing it.
[Underlined] 1979 VISIT CRASH SITE PELVIS FOUND [/underlined]
Explain landing procedure at airfield after [underlined] returning to base Black Swan from Pilgrim B. Baker [/underlined] etc
[Page break]
2252HRS
28TH APRIL [underlined] ST MEDARD BORDEAUX [/underlined]
88 A/C 8HRS No A/C lost
Explosive factory
Markers set woods on fire
Unable to see target
Bombs returned to base
22.35HRS
29TH APRIL [underlined] ST MEDARD BORDEAUX [/underlined]
68 A/C 7HRS 20MINS No A/C lost
Explosive factory destroyed
Message (master bomber) do not bomb below “4,000FT
Blast lifted up our A/C
21.35HRS
1ST MAY 44 [underlined] TOULOUSE [/underlined]
131 A/C 5HRS 35MINS No A/C lost
Aircraft factory & Explosives factory
Both targets hit.
[Page break]
23.21HRS
[Underlined] 22ND APRIL BRUNSWICH [/underlined]
238 A/C 6HRS 4 A/C lost
617 Sqdn Mosquito’s marked target
Thin could over target hampered the bombing
[Underlined] 1,000lb bomb still in bomb bay after [/underlined] landing
Rolled down bomb bay after landing
[Underlined] 21.35 HRS SCHWEINFURT [/underlined
[Underlined] 26TH April [/underlined]
206 A/C 8HRS 50 MINS 21 A/C lost
Unexpected strong winds
Raid not a success
F/St Jackson Flt/Eng Awarded V.C. for climbing out on wing of A/C to put out fire in engine
FW 190 below Lanc. But didn’t fire at it.
[Page break]
11 TH APRIL 20.30
[Underlined] AACHEN [/underlined] 4 HRS
341 A/C 9 A/C lost
Always wanted to bomb Aachen
They gave us so much AA when it was used as a turning point
German civilian population all prepared for RAF raids. All their cellars were joined together with tunnels
The roof attic timbers coated with lime
18TH APRIL 44 [underlined] JUVISEY PARIS [/underlined] 4.25HRS
202 A/C RAILWAY TERMINAL 1 A/C lost
5 Group effort with master bomber Red spot marking
20TH APRIL 44 [underlined LA CHAPELLE [/underlined] (PARIS) 4HRS 30MINS
270 A/C 6 A/C lost
[Underlined] Rail target north of Paris [/underlined]
[Underlined] Washing & shaving equipment [/underlined]
[Underlined] Haversacks in Sgts mess. [/underlined]
Collected from hooks after approx. 6 weeks
[Page break]
Although operations were detailed one night our crew were not detailed.
I needed a few items for myself from the shops in Lincoln and went there on my own to purchase them.
Lincoln city was very quiet. Not an aircraft in the sky and you could hear all the traffic noises.
Suddenly the crackling noise of a heavily laden Lancaster bomber climbed over the roof tops from one airfield, then followed by another from another airfield. This was followed by dozens of Lancasters circling round the city, heavily laden with tons of bombs. The people of Lincoln were used to this, as they knew that once on their way to Germany it would be quiet until they returned some hours later
[Page break]
[Underlined] WE HAD TO BURY REAR GUNNER AT BIRMING [/underlined]
End of tour operations.
Returning after 7 days leave
5 – 50 Sqdn crews missing from raids whilst away
4 on Mailly le Camp.
15 Lancs flown whilst with 50 Sqdn 14 lost soon after.
[Underlined] No interest in football what so ever [/underlined]
[Underlined] DURING MY 30 OPERATIONS [/underlined]
691 aircraft lost
3967 aircrew killed
1111 P.O.W.’s
209 hrs over Germany (all at night) over 8 days.
Of the 4319 men in the A/C attacking Berlin who were shot down in the 18 raids only 992 survived 22.9 per cent.
[Page break]
Fred and Reg Ena Goodrich and Joan Brighty
[Underlined] THE LINCOLN IMP [/underlined]
Ena & Joan our two ATS girl friends gave us both a little Lincoln Imp badge to wear on our clothing when flying. They were known as very lucky items. Fred liked to pin his to his blazor when he went out in the evening, and pin it to his flying jacket when flying.
One evening when we were on operations being taken to our aircraft, Fred said to the driver of our transport, I have’nt got my Lincoln Imp (I never fly without it) Fred told him our hut number, 1st bed on left, Lincoln Imp on blazor hanging above bed.
The driver after dropping us at our A/C sped off to our hut, in ten minutes he was back with Freds Lincoln Imp. We all felt much better.
It was some time after, during a local parachute jumping afternoon, we had ten men in the Lancaster and only six of us managed to bale out before the Lancaster crashed. The other four men were killed Fred our rear gunner was one of them.
As I lay’d in my bed the next morning with Fred’s bed next to mine, his uniform jacket hung in the sun light: something on the pocket lapel caught the sunlight. It was Freds Lincoln Imp
[Page break]
AIRCRAFT & AIRCREW LOSSES DURING REG’S 30 OPERATIONS
[Table of aircraft with losses and details of crews]
Total number of A/C lost on these operations [underlined] 562. [/underlined]
Total number of aircrew killed [underlined] 4,300. 1206 POW’s
Average number of A/C on each operation 425.
Of the 4319 men in the A/C shot down attacking Berlin only 992 survived 22.9 per cent
[Page break]
BOMBER COMMAND LOSSES 8,325 AIRCRAFT.
1 in every 7 aircrew were killed in training
[Underlined] 1942 [/underlined] Only 3 in every 10 crews would finish a tour
3 groups od U.S. P40’s had sweepd German airfields in the afternoon prior to Nuremburg
Many say after pilots releasing their brakes and getting close to 105mph. was the moment of greatest fear. Sitting between 12 tons of petrol and explosives
6 nights before the Nuremburg raid 72 bombers were lost over Berlin
[Page break]
Killed on the Nuremburg raid
545 RAF crew
129 German civilian and military inc 11 Luftwaffe
[Underlined] 5 airmen from Northants killed [/underlined]
F/Sgt T J Hirst Weedon
F/O H C Frost Northampton
Sgt A J Johnson Kettering
Sgt J.P G Binder Moulton
Sgt G.W. Walker Geddington
In all during WWII 14,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Nuremburg. 6,369 Germans killed
A crew member had 1 in 4 chance when shot down
In the 5 month period known as the Battle of Berlin, it cost bomber command 1,123 A/C missing over enemy territory and crashes in England More than the entire strength of bomber command
Cyril Barton was the only Halifax pilot to gain V.C.
After Nuremburg, Mosquitoes went out with the bombers using the latest Mark X radar. Before this it was never allowed over enemy territory
[Page break]
[Underlined] NUREMBURG [/underlined]
41 Second Dicky’s took part in raid 9 killed 2 POW’s
9 Flight Commanders lost all killed
Half missing crews had done less than 10 ops.
30 missing had done less than 5 ops.
9 crews missing on their first op.
Out of 64 Lancs shot down only 4 rear gunners survived
101 Sqdn lost 7 A/C
51 Sqdn lost 6
Sgt Brinkhurst was the only crew member to get back to England after being shot down by a Halifax mid/upper gunner
Most men after being shot down in Germany, after taking off their parachutes, felt a sense of relief and were glad to be alive
No Mosquito carrying Oboe was ever shot down
[Page break]
Finally the moon set 1.48am, 3 hrs flight home against head winds
Martin Becker had shot down 6 bombers, he landed and re fuelled then shot down another Halifax. The rear gunner never saw him
50 men in Beckers 7 A/C 34 died
Major Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer had shot down 121 bombers
The spread of bombers was 160 miles wide when crossing the coast home at 4am.
F/Lt Snell PFF pilot over Nuremburg 0107, landed base Downham Market 0410by direct route home 25 mins before the next A/C landed
Some crews 100 miles off track
Our crew crossed coast at Calais instead of 80 miles further south
P/O Barton crossed Durham coast 200 miles off track and crash landed. 3 crew survived.
Cyril Barton died – VC.
14 A/C crashed in this country.
[Underlined] East Kirkby [/underlined] 5 crews had there leave stopped to go on this operation 2 aborted 2 shot down.
[Page break]
NUREMBERG
Sgt Handley 50 Sqdn crashed RAF Winth [missing rest of word] All crew okay.
But all crew killed 5 weeks later Mailey le Camp.
When we were interrogated we were asked, How many did you think we have lost. Our M/U said about 100 and they said “Come off it Sgt. ” and poo pooed it.
Bennett was angry when he heard of the losses
One third of bombers shot down by 8 pilots
Nav F L Chipperfield 619 Sqdn Coningsby composed the Warsaw Concerto was on this raid
Our crew were No 1 airborne at Skellingthorpe at 2200 later Flt.Sgt Bucknall burst a tyre on take off and came off the runway “Wing & engine ripped out”
52 A/C Boomerang’d
4.7% Lancs
14.2 Halifaxs.
1.8 PFF.
2,600 tons of bombs carried all together
[Page break]
NUREMBURG
The forecast winds the bombers were using were not accurate & blew crews to the north
German night fighters still had navigation lights on when they first saw the bombers
The SN-2 improved radar could locate bomber even if they were using window.
Walter Heidenreich switched on radar and saw unusual blip. It was two Lancs flying together for company (it was so bright) He shot them both down with (slanting music)
Helmut Schuite shot down 4 A/C with 56 cannon shells
P/O Cyril Barton’s A/C on fire.
Nav, W/OP & B/A bale out
After fires are put out he still carried on with 3 engines loosing 400 gals fuel
Aircraft burning on ground lit up the sky
Our nav told crew not to report any more A/C being shot down
[Page break]
NUREMBURG
9 out of 10 pilots would always corkscrew port. The German pilots would allow for this
50 Mosquito night/fighters were in bomber stream, their radar could not pick up the signals from the German night fighters
The RAF radio station at Kingsdown could hear the claims of bombers being shot down and knew bomber command was in trouble
The long leg 200 miles 1 hr flying. 60 aircraft shot down one every 3 1/2 miles one per minute
In only 1 A/C did the whole crew survive
One crew in three were all killed
After the long leg bombers turned south for Nuremburg. Owing to strong wind, lots were too far [missing word] and east. 75 miles 20 mins flying.
PFF found that Nuremburg was covered by dense cloud 2 miles deep. Had to use sky markers
[Page break]
German single engine fighters all sent north to Berlin.
The bombers turn to the south wasn’t predicted
Chris Panton, brother of Panton Bros East Kirkby was shot down and killed on southern leg
PFF target indicators were widely scattered
Within 7 mins of bombers turning south, all German night fighters were told of new course
18 more bombers were lost on short south leg
In one Lanc Trevor Roper was killed Gibsons R/G
After target marking A/C should be bombing 47 A/C per min. or 160 tons per min
But they were late being too far north at turning point.
2 groups of markers could be seen several miles apart
Backers up dropped their sky markers near Lauf too far east. There was no master bomber to tell main force
[Page break]
NUREMBURG
It was usual practice for some PFF crews to scatter bombs over target area to keep the defences under cover whilst the aiming point was located and marked accurately.
Sky markers dropped over Lauf drew most of the bombing
One Path finder had a clear view of industrial town. Thought it must be Nuremburg and dropped large green TI on it
The town was Schweinfurt.
All the ball bearing factories were hit with incendiaries but no HE bombs.
Of all the A/C shot down on the outward flight only one full crew survived
German fire fighters working in -15 degrees- ce [missing end of word]
Village of Schonberg was destroyed by incendiaries 11 miles from aiming point
After leaving Nuremburg Some pilots flew into cloud after losing height still being blown north
[Page break]
[Underlined] 30TH MARCH 1944 [/underlined]
[Underlined] OPS NUREMBERG SAME SIZE AS BRISTOL [/underlined]
Harris
Severe icing in northern Europe, raid had to be more south
Harris chose Nuremburg.
Beginning of moon period
Early forecast cloud cover on way to target but clear over target
Straight leg 200 miles over Germany
Bennett PFF was against this
Halifax groups were in favour save fuel
Bombers in 5 waves 17 mins over target.
795 aircraft 572 Lancs 214 Halifax’s 9 Mosquito
In 7 months up to this date bomber command had lost 1047 A/C
6 days before 73/AC lost on Berlin
Halifax’s would carry only incendiaries one third of Lancasters weight.
162 aircraft involved in diversion raids (Baltic)
[Page break]
[Underlined] NUREMBERG [/underlined]
Some U.S. Mustangs and Lightnings were flying as night fighters RAF crews not told
20 Stirlings
10 Albemarles
8 Wellingtons
6 Fortress’s
110 Mosquitoes
I all 6,493 airmen over Germany that night.
In 103 Sqdn no one had completed a tour for 7 months
Photo rec’I’ aircraft flew over area in late afternoon and reported clear skys and no cloud cover.
But Harris did not cancel the raid
The German controllers ignored the mining diversion towards Baltic
German radar picked up signals from our H2S headsets soon after leaving our bases
By midnight, 200 German night fighters were making their way to orbit beacons “Ida” and “Otto” In the path of the bombers
Bombers were leaving contrails in bright moon
[Page break]
Because of the failure to find and mark Nuremberg Harris gave Cochrane (5 Group) the all clear to mark targets from low level. Using 617 Sqdn and Mosquitoes W/Co Cheshire obtained his V.C. for all his low level marking
Cheshire marked an A/C factory from 1,000ft over Toulouse and 5 Group destroyed it.
This was the last time the bombers all went in one stream to a single target.
[Page break]
[Underlined] REG’S TOTAL RAF TRAINING [/underlined]
Oct/41 Blackpool Basic RAF training Morse Code etc
Jan/42 Yatesbury. Wireless study. Morse procedure
May/42 “North Coates”. Wireless ops duties costal command
Oct/42 Radio Maintenance “South Kensington” London
Jan/43 Radio training “Madely” Proctors & Dominies
Apr/43 Air gunners course Stormy Down Whitleys
May 43 “AFU” Wigtown Scotland Ansons & Bothas
June 43 14 OTU Cottesmore Saltby & Market Harborough
Sept 43 H.C.U. Wigsley Halifax & Lancaster
Oct 43 50 Sqdn Lancasters 10 Berlin ops and Nuremburg Pilot Sir Michael Beetham
May 44 RAF Silverston 14 OTU.
June 44 RAF Turweston 14 OTU
June 45 Voluntarily taken off flying duties
July 45 Trained as receipts & issues stores officer at RAF Kirkham
Dec 45 Flown to Rangoon 56 FRU Forward Repair Unit 39 Flying hours reclaiming RAF equipment
July 46 Return home by boat. Demob RAF Kirkham 30 days not leaving the boat
In Burma. Reclaiming RAF equipment left arround after the Japanese were defeated
Based in Rangoon
Bringing it on charge or turning it to scrap
[Page break]
[Symbol] Lost on ops whilst F/O Beetham was at 50 Sqdn.
[Symbol] Missing POW’s.
[Underlined] No.50 Squadron Battle Order – 22nd November, 1943 [/underlined] BERLIN
[Underlined] A/C Pilot F/Eng. Nav. A/B. WO/AG. MU/G.
“A” P/O Toovey Sgt. Smith F/O. Pagett Sgt. Bedingham Sgt. Olsson Sgt. Kelbrick
“B” F/Lt. Bolton Sgt. Brown P/O. Watson F/Sgt. Forrester Sgt. McCall Sgt. Moody
“C” P/O. Heckendorf Sgt. Henderson P/O. Dale Sgt. Kewlay Sgt. Hope Sgt. Hall
“D” F/O. Beetham Sgt. Moore P/O. Swinyard Sgt. Bartlett Sgt. Payne Sgt. Higgins
“E” F/Sgt. Leader Sgt. Rosenburg F/O Candy P/O. Stevens F/Sgt. Lewis Sgt. Tupman
“F” P/O. Litherland Sgt. Green F/O. Chilcott Sgt. Hartley Sgt. Harris F/O Crawford
“G” F/O. Wilson Sgt. Felton P/O. Billam F/O. Newman Sgt. Gunn F/Sgt Harring
“H” Sgt. Lloyd Sgt. Avenell Sgt. Richardson SGt. Dewhirst F/Sgt. Hewson Sgt. McCarthy
“J” F/Sgt Erritt Sgt. Jones F/Sgt. Delaynn Sgt. Gleeson F/Sgt. Taylor F/Sgt. William
“K” F/Sgt. Thompson Sgt. Laws F/Sgt. Chapman Sgt. Conlon Sgt. Corbett Sgt. Spiers
Front Gunner – F/Sgt. Bolton
“L” F/Lt. Burtt Sgt. Taylor F/o. Presland F/O. Daynes F/O. Betty Sgt. Parkman
“M” F/O. Keith Sgt. Mitchell F/O. Guthrie Sgt. Bendix Sgt. Morrey Sgt. Brown
“N” F/Sgt Cole Sgt. Cammish F/Sgt. Burton Sgt. Wasterman F/Sgt. Stanwix Sgt. Sockett
“O” P/O Dobbyn Sgt. Cave F/Sgt. Palmer Sgt. Jackson Sgt. Ridyard Sgt. Duncom
“P” P/O. Lundy Sgt. Stevens F/Sgt. Jordan P/O Bignell Sgt. Green Sgt. Rundle
“R” W/O. Saxton Sgt. Fryer F/Sgt. Jowett F/Sgt Rees Sgt. Watson F/Sgt. Zunti
2nd Navigator F/Sgt Crerar
“S” P/O. Adams Sgt. Midgeley Sgt. Rawcliffe Sgt. Ward F/Sgt. Crawford Sgt. Hastie
“T” F/O Herbert Sgt. Russell Sgt. Rae F/O. Bacon Sgt. Poole P/O. Hughes
“X” P/O. Weatherstone Sgt. Gregory F/Sgt. Thompson Sgt. Lane Sgt. Spruce Sgt. Linehan
O.C. Night Flying S/Ldr. W.F. Parks, DFC.
Duty Engineer Sgt. Brown
R.McFarlane
Wing Commander, Commanding,
[Underlined] 50 Squadron, Skellingthorpe [/underlined]
[Page break]
[Photograph]
[Page break]
[RAF Challenge Chart]
[Page break]
Early DI’s change LT. accumulators Sign Form 700
Airtest check equip whilst flying
Attend W/Ops briefing D/F stations & freq’s etc. codes
Attend main briefing.
Collect. Colour of day charts
Main bomber codes
Beacon freq’s
M/F D/F groups to use
Broadcast times
Spare helmet
W/T challenge chart
Most of these are on rice paper and can be eaten before landing
Operate ground flight switch check voltage main acc’s
Switch on A1134? Amplifier for inter com.
Check radio whilst engines being run up.
Tidy up bundles of window on floor
Oxygen mask on before take off
Once airborne pencil in ranges on vis Monica screen
IFF switched on
Listen out for half hourly broadcast from base
Leaving coast wind out trailing aerial
Switch off IFF.
Keep continuous watch on Monica screen
Listen out on given wave band for German speech and tune transmitter to jamb the speech
Wind in trailing aerial when crossing enemy coast
Pass bundles of window down to F/Lt engineer
Transmit wind speed and height back to base. Details from nav
Keeping watch on Monica screen whilst listening for German speech on given wave length
Obtain bearing from beacon for nav. using loop aerial
On clear sky nights, obtain shots of given stars as asked for by navigator
On run up to target get in astro dome and look for A/C above you on bombing run
Receive any messages from base, decode them and pass to Pilot or nav
Send more winds back to base
Shout “contact” each time a blip comes on Monica screen
Keep searching for German R/T speech
Let trailing aerial out after leaving enemy coast.
Switch on IFF when near English coast
Place colours of day cartridges in very pistol
Wind in trailing aerial (crossing English coast)
If diversion message is rec’d before reaching English coast. Contact the diversion airfield and obtain QDM. Coarse to steer to get you to the airfield
[Page break]
[Photograph]
[Page break]
Alfred East Gallery Aircraft Paintings.
Grafton Underwood Oil Painting . Raffle for funds re Americans returning
Later Exhib Grafton Village Hall
Village scenes & aircraft.
Lady bought two church paintings
Vicars wife spitfire painting
Forest Green village bridge painting
Thank you letter.
Comission Lysander dessert painting
Kept. It.
Aircraft Paintings for guest speakers Air Gunners Ass
Chairman got praise
Lancaster Sqdn painting Lincoln £1,600 Memorial
Comission B24 Liberator painting Harrington Memorial unveiling
[Missing word] B17 over Grafton Underwood Dr Wildgoose
[Missing word] of friends deceased wife
Rothwell family mother father & wife all deceased
[Missing word] Ship painting for Malta.
[Page break]
Exhibiting Paintings in Rothwell Antique Shop.
2 Exhibitions in Rothwell library
Lancaster painting bought by friend donated to Bishop Stopford School.
Trevor Hopkins and talk to children
Photograph’s taken of paintings & made into cards
Started painting local scenes in water colours to produce greetings cards
Now visit all villages in this area taking photographs to use in producing more cards.
County library services use my Manor House painting to produce 4,000 cards.
Still have to go back to Lanc painting in oils
In 1999 exhibited 16 paintings All sold
[Page break]
[Underlined] PAINTING [/underlined]
Started 1970
Picture framing out of hand
Framing for art exhibitions & weddings
Nude lady painting in shed
Some of them not worth framing.
To Doctor [inserted] Walker [/inserted] with chest pains, pack up framing first do some for us
Calendars from drug firms.
Clear up back log framing
Try painting for change
Started copying calendars – water colours sold first one to neighbour
College told me change to oils
Did my first aircraft painting sketching model oils
Later photos of models at required angles
Started taking photo’s of local scenes to copy
Exhibited in Kettering P.O & Lloyds Bank
Commissioned paint bank for manager
Changed it to holiday painting
[Page break]
[Underlined] BROUGHTON ART EXHIBITION JUNE 2000 [/underlined]
Paintings hung 3 sold
1 painting took 2nd place in favourite painting vote.
Oct and November Exhibitions in-:
Alfred East Gallery Kettering
Kettering Library
Rothwell Holy Trinity
31 paintings sold during year 2000
Jan 2001, completed painting of Rothwell Church school building for use on letter heading note paper
Selection of greeting’s cards including A/C cards
Total over 100
Donate paintings-: Westside Community Group
Rowell Fair Soc
Rothwell Church
Painting of Rothwell Sunday School Bdls’
Broughton Flower Festival Poster
[Page break]
Intelligence Exams. Dover Hall? Northampton. RAF Cardington over night.
Fitness Exams [Underlined] DETAILS OF W/OP TRAINING [/underlined]
MAY
25.5.41 RAF Reserve
OCT
9-10-41 8 Recruit Centre Padgate.
OCT
16.10.41 10 Signals School [underlined] Blackpool [/underlined]
FEB
5.2.42 2 Signals School [underlined] Yatesbury [/underlined]
MAY
7.5.42 W/OP [underlined] North Coates [/underlined] Coastal Comm
SEP
16.9.42 7 Signals School [underlined] South Kensington [/underlined]
JAN
6.1.43 4 Signals School [underlined] Madeley [/underlined]
APR
6.4.43 7 A.G.S. Stormy Down
APR
27.4.43 1 A.F.U. Wigtown
JUNE
1.6.43 14 OTU Cottesmore, Saltby Market Harborough
SEPT
8.9.43 1654 Conversion Unit Wigsley. NOTS
OCT
22.10.43 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe Lincs.
10.6.44 14 OTU Silverstone
1.8.44? 14 O.T.U. Turweston
[Page break]
RAF SERVICE OVERSEAS 1945/46.
[Underlined] OCT 1943 [/underlined]
Met my future 1st wife whilst serving in RAF Lincoln
She was an ATS girl also based in Lincoln
[Missing word] [Underlined] 1944 [/underlined]
After completing my operational flying 50 Sqdn Skellingthorpe posted to 17 OTU Silverstone as an instructor where I stayed until VE. Day May 1945.
By that time I was engaged to my ATS girlfriend but agreed not to get married whilst still flying
Large surplus of aircrew after VE Day.
Given choice to give up flying and take ground job.
After training were promised posting near home
1st 2nd and 3rd choice Desborough Market Harbor’o Silverstone
After courting 2 years decided to get married
Posted to RAF Kirkham 8 week course Receipts & Issues Officer
Fixed date of wedding 5th Oct 45
After finish of course posted to Blackpool P.D.C.
Then to North Pier to be told of our postings
My posting 56 FRU S.E.A.C.
Told to go to Karachi to find where 56 FRU was.
Home on leave for wedding & back to Blackpool
Trainload of us to Northweald Essex to fly over seas
[Page break]
NORTHWEALD LATE OCT. 1945
Parade 8am each morning hundreds on parade
Call for 50 personel 2 Liberators departing
Kept hanging back wifes parents living nearby.
5 weeks later not many of us left, all transported to [underlined] RAF Tempsford [/underlined] spy’s airfield [underlined] Bedfordshire [/underlined]
Now very cold snow on ground [underlined] no heating. [/underlined]
[Underlined] 11TH DEC [/underlined] 26 off us taken with kit, to waiting Lib
Given ‘K’ rations [underlined] no drinks no seats [/underlined]
1300 hrs took off for North Africa
Landed North Africa [underlined] Castel Benito Tripoli [/underlined] Mussolini’s airfield 7hrs 5mins
Canteen for cup tea Barrel of oranges
Slept in tent [underlined] cold [/underlined] Out door wash etc
Servicemen going home have preferance of A/C
Dock & harbour Tripoli full of sunken ships
Airfield littered with Axis A/C
[Page break]
[Underlined] 13TH DEC [/underlined] 4pm took off for [underlined] Cairo [/underlined] Landed [underlined] Almaza 6hrs 40mins [/underlined]
Taken to Helioplis Palace Hotel
Civil aviation hotel Very posh.
Cool bath in morning (Lady cleaner)
Trip to Pyramids in afternoon
Collect Roman coin [underlined] Diaclesus 300BC [/underlined]
Trouble with young Egyptian shoe shines
[Underlined] 15TH DEC 0630hrs [/underlined] Took off [underlined] Persia, [/underlined] Landed [underlined] Shaibah 5hrs [/underlined]
Very hot sunstroke centre near A/C
[Underlined] 15TH DEC 1500hrs [/underlined] Took off for India landed at [underlined] Mauripur Karachi 7hrs 20mins [/underlined] 10.20pm.
Given bunk beds in large hangar 3 high.
Spent 13 days at Mauripur including Christmas
Changed into Khaki clothing
Plenty of fruit and bananas and drink
Christmas day in shorts & hat only
Swimming in Arabian Gulf with dolphins
Hot sands Camel rides messy smells
[Page break]
[Underlined] 28 DEC 45 6 AM [/underlined]
Boarded Dakota to [underlined] Palam Delhi 4hrs 40mins [/underlined]
[Underlined] View of Everest during flight [/underlined]
28th DEC [underlined] 12.35PM Palam to Chakula 4hrs 15mins [/underlined]
[Underlined] 100 miles? From Calcutta [/underlined]
At Chakula for 2 or three days
Stayed on camp site all the time
Lived in bamboo huts on stilts [underlined] 4ft [/underlined]
Wild country all arround, jackals howling at nights
Primitive toilets on raised stairways
All personel were armed mostly Sten guns
All had firing practice on firing range
1ST JAN 46
We all boarded Indian train, no window panes no corridors
As Warrant Officer was I/C the train
Airmen firing from train at wildlife during journey
[Page break]
Thought I was in for rocket when we pulled into Calcutta station
Spent next few days in transit camp near Calcutta
Not allowed to leave camp over local Indians pushing for their independance
Whilst there played football against African black, they wiled the floor with us, playing with bare feet
Ice cream under shade of tree monkey’s dropping
Eating ice cream
5TH JAN 46.
[Underlined] TRANSPORTED TO DUM DUM AIRPORT CALCUTTA [/underlined]
12.30pm Boarded Dakota to Mingladon Airfield near Rangoon 4.30hrs
Total flying hours Tempsford England to [underlined] Mingladon Rangoon 39hrs 30mins [/underlined]
We were all taken by lorry transport (now 12 off us)
To Rangoon where we found 56 F.R.U.
F.R.U. = Forward Repair Unit.
[Page break]
We were taken to our separate mess’s
After a meal in the Sgts mess we were taken to a neaby bombed building nearby
Given timber & tools to make beds
Mosquito nets
[Underlined] No windows electrics water [/underlined]
After breakfast taken to 56 FRU stores
[Underlined] 56 FORWARD REPAIR UNIT. [/underlined]
Capable of repairing anything used in R.A.F.
Aircraft Vehicles Radio’s Parachutes etc
Stores in large [inserted] ex [/inserted] printing works
[Underlined] Job Detail As a W/O I was given the jobs [/underlined]
As, I/C our Sgts billet
Anti malaria officer
Fire officer
Petrol receipts & issues officer
As well as working in stores & Orderly Officer
[Page break]
[Underlined] Japanese POW’s working for us. Petrol drums [/underlined]
[Underlined] Very hot & sticky [/underlined] Atmosphere 110°
Green mould on shoes
[Underlined] Khaki shorts [/underlined] changed 3 times a day.
[Underlined] Dark [/underlined] soon after 5pm, thousands large bats
[Underlined] Fire fly’s [/underlined] lighting up tress
[Underlined] Canoe building [/underlined]
[Underlined] Victoria Lakes Sunday’s Me organising [/underlined]
[Underlined] Transport Food Bookings Snakes [/underlined] in lake
[Underlined] Hot sands [/underlined]
[Underlined] Petrol for Unit dance [/underlined]
[Underlined] Drains and sewers in Rangoon [/underlined] flooding in monsoon
Units closing down disposing of their equipment.
[Underlined] Orderly Officer Parachutes and Army Depot fire [/underlined]
[Underlined] Duty Free labels [/underlined] F/Lt. Adjutant
[Underlined] Rangoon toilets [/underlined] Squash dog on road
Water Festival
[Page break]
[Underlined] Monsoon rain [/underlined] Deluge on flat roof
Open sewers full
W/shops flooded testing canoes
We each bought a black steel trunk to store all our presents in to take home called a [underlined] deep sea trunk [/underlined]
[Underlined] One thing remains in my memory [/underlined]
Anglo Burmese ladies in office
11am Thursday’s shooting Jap war criminals
Listening to rifle shots ladies smiling.
[Underlined] EARLY JUNE 1946 [/underlined]
My demob group No 42 has come up
Transferred to a disposal centre on the outskirts of Rangoon
Sleeping 2 persons small tent
Were instructed to keep our arms in our beds, [underlined] “Dakoits” [/underlined] Burmese bandits from surrounding countryside
After a few days we were taken out by boat where our ship to take us home was moored [Underlined] The “Orduna” [/underlined]
[Page break]
REG PAYNE
WIRELESS OPERATOR
SGT RON BOYDON W/OP 207 SQDN
21/22 JAN 1944 OPS MAGDEBURG
ALL CREW BURIED IN BERLIN
1939-45 CEMETARY
“Bomber Harris and the Strategic Bombing Offensive 1939-1945
By the time war in Europe had ended more than 8,000 bombers had been lost during operational sorties, and by night alone nearly 14,000 were damaged, of which some 1,200 were totally wrecked. In terms of human casualties no fewer than 46,268 had lost their lives during or as a result of operations, and a further 4,200 had been wounded. In addition on non-operational flights 8,090 had been killed or wounded. Put another way, out of every 100 aircrew who joined an Operational Training Unit, on average 51 would be killed on operations, 9 would be killed flying in England, 3 would be seriously injured in crashes, 12 would become POW’s of whom some would be injured, 1 would be shot down but evade capture, and 24 would survive unharmed. No other branch of the fighting services faced quite these awesome odds.
[Page break]
1943/44
REG PAYNE
1435510 WIRELESS OPERATOR
50 SQUADRON
SKELLINGTHORPE
LINCOLN
PILOT SIR MICHAEL BEETHAM
NAV FRANK SWINYARD
BOMB AIMER LES BARTLETT
WIRELESS OPERATOR REG PAYNE
FLIGHT ENG. DON MOORE
MID UPPER GUNNER JOCK HIGGINS
REAR GUNNER FRED BALL
[Page break]
[Table of Aircraft & Aircrew Losses During Reg’s 30 Operations]
Total number of A/C lost on these operations 562.
Total number of aircrew killed 4,300. 1206 POW’s
Average number of A/C on each operation 425.
Of the 4319 men in the A/C shot down attacking Berlin only 992 survived 22.9 per cent.
[Page break]
[Underlined] BOAT TRIP HOME FROM BURMA RANGOON [/underlined]
As a W/O was given a berth in centre of ship
The ship terribly overcrowded
The only drinks water and tea
No canteen or such No books or library
30 day journey
Tried sleeping below deck first night
Slept on deck (crowded) after that
Quizz on how many miles the ship did each day
Went thro monsoon period
Attacked by swarm of locus
Hung dirty washing out of port hole
Noticed Army personel had ringworms
Nothing to do all day
Biggest event watching one chap having his boils squeezed each morning.
Called in at Ceylon, Alexandra Suez Gibralta
No one allowed off ship.
Went below to sleep just before we reached England
Docked in Liverpool mid July.
[Page break]
[Underlined] DEMOBBED AT RAF KIRKHAM 17TH JULY 1946 [/underlined]
W/O’s were told to leave their kit bags on deck and they will be taken to demob centre
All khaki clothing burned on parade ground
Our deep sea trunks were brought to us.
My kit bag had not turned up.
Had to pay 19/6d for missing overcoat (in kit bag)
Revolver & 40 rounds also in kitbag.
Told some of you W/O’s would loose your bloody head if it was’nt fixed on.
That’s all that was said
With that trundled my deep sea trunk to the railway station and home
[Page break]
[Underlined] SGT RON BOYDON [/underlined]
WIRELESS OPERATOR /AIR GUNNER 207 SQDN
LOST WITH ALL HIS CREW
WHILST BOMBING MAGDEBURG
21/22ND JAN 1944
YOU ARE NOT FORGOTTEN RON
REG PAYNE AND TUBBY MELHUISH
YOUR TWO EX RAF CHUMS.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aviation Memory
Description
An account of the resource
A detailed account of Reg Payne's service in the RAF. He starts with a list of 18 RAF bases where he served in his 5 years of service. He was 16 when war was declared but volunteered for the RAF at 17. After tests he was selected for training as a wireless operator ending up at Blackpool. Morse had to be 10 words a minute or retraining as a gunner. Moved to RAF Yatesbury and speed increased to 18 words per minutes. Then RAF Stormy Down for air gunnery followed by #1 AFU Wigtown for training in flight.
By June 1943 Reg is at RAF Cottesmore, 14 Operational Training Unit.
He details his daily tasks before operations.
Next he is moved to RAF Wigsley Heavy Conversion Unit for conversion to Halifaxes then Lancasters then ended up at RAF Skellingthorpe.
The social life at Skellingthorpe is popular and he met his first wife.
November 1943 his brother is missing over Dusseldorf.
Each operation he was involved in is described in detail.
Later in his memoir he details where and when he trained.
There is a list of prisoners of war from his squadron and a colour photograph of Reg and two colleagues at the tail of Lancaster 'Just Jane'.
There is a list of Reg's paintings.
He details his post war service via Libya, Cairo, Iran, India and Karachi, ending up at 56 Forward Repair Unit in Rangoon.
In June 1946 he returned to the UK by ship.
Creator
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Reg Payne
Format
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120 handwritten sheets
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BPayneRPayneRv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Burma
France
Germany
Great Britain
Burma--Rangoon
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
France--Paris
France--Toulouse
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Braunschweig
France--Marseille
Poland--Szczecin
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Germany--Wolfenbüttel
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1944-03-30
1944-03-31
1944-04-05
1944-04-06
1944-04-18
1944-04-19
1945
1946
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
102 Squadron
14 OTU
17 OTU
49 Squadron
5 Group
50 Squadron
619 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Albemarle
Anson
arts and crafts
bale out
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
bombing of the Juvisy, Noisy-le-Sec and Le Bourget railways (18/19 April 1944)
bombing of Toulouse (5/6 April 1944)
Botha
Caterpillar Club
crewing up
Dominie
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
incendiary device
Ju 88
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
Proctor
RAF Cottesmore
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Kirkham
RAF Madley
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Melbourne
RAF North Coates
RAF North Weald
RAF Padgate
RAF Pocklington
RAF Saltby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Eval
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Tempsford
RAF Turweston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wigtown
RAF Wittering
RAF Yatesbury
Stirling
superstition
training
Wellington
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10635/BPayneRPayneRv2.1.pdf
a90530e769feeb87faa075c28bdb865c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BEFORE I WAS IN THE RAF
[underlined] Wartime Memories [/underlined]. Reg Payne
[deleted] 2 [/deleted] 2
I didn’t think of being killed whilst flying until I visited one or two crash sites in the Kettering area, some of them were German aircraft and I knew members of the crew had been killed when the A/C crashed.
I visited the crash site of a Blenheim Bomber which crashed in some sand pits, I rescued parts of flying clothing in the hedge row, and found there were still parts of human flesh mixed with the lambs wool.
Another aircraft crashed near a pond and the crew were all killed, bits of the Blenheim Bomber were still on the ground. A bunch of boys with caterpilts [sic] were shooting at something floating in the pond. As it came nearer to me I saw that it was, a human eye ball.
All this didn’t stop me from Joining the RAF to fly when I reached the age of eighteen yrs.
After two yrs of training as a W/OP Airgunner for two yrs I finally arrived at RAF Skellingthorpe 50 Sqdn on the outskirts of Lincoln. My brother two yrs older was also flying in the RAF, near by at RAF Fiskerton, also a W/OP, he had already flown a number of operations.
I was already a member of a Lancaster crew, and my pilot had to fly on an operation with another, before he could take his own crew on his own. After the operation was over we were glad that he had returned OK, and said that he didnt [sic] think the operation was as bad as he expected.
The next day I had a phone call from my mother to say that my brother was missing from the same operation that my pilot was taken on. She asked me if I could come home.
I visited our Squadron C.O. and asked if I could visit my mother, he refused to let me go saying that my parents would perswade [sic] me to stop flying if I did. I told him that I promised him that
[page break]
[deleted] 2 [/deleted] 3
I would come back and continue flying. My Mother and Father both told me to be very careful when I was flying so the C.O. had nothing else to say to me. Luckily later we found that the Lancaster that my brother was in exploded whilst flying and two of the crew, by brother one of them, were blown thro [sic] the perspex roof, although in a German hospital they were not killed.
After a few weeks my mother told me that Ron Boydon the fellow that I had done all my training with was reported missing from operations, followed by Arthur Johnson who I trained with. She told me that Mrs Boydon has been seen looking in peoples gate ways at night looking for her son Ron.
We didnt [sic] think much of our hut at Skellingthorpe with no washing arrangements, to do this we had to walk to the Sgts Mess some distance away.
On our first evening there Fred our Rear Gunner and myself cycled to Lincoln as we were told it was only a short bike ride.
We found a small pub called the “UNITY”,? it was quiet inside not many people in the room that we were in, just tow ATS Girls sipping their two drinks together across the other side of the room.
It was not until they got up to go that we spoke to them, they had to be in their quarters by ten o’clock, in a large house near the cathedral. We were ready to go ourselves and asked if we could walk back with them. They seemed a couple of nice girls and we arranged to meet them at an earlyer [sic] time the next night
Luckily we were not wanted for any evening duties and we were able to get away early and spend time with the two ATS girls until it was time for them to be in their billets by ten oclock [sic]
We spent time with the two ATS girls for a few weeks and both Fred and I found a close relationship with them, Fred along with Joan & myself with Ena, we all became very friendly, and met each other as early and many times as we could get away.
Returning to the large room of ours in our hut, we were
[page break]
4
surprised one evening when entering our large room that there was three extra beds in there, with lots of kit bags and luggage scattered about the room. We had three Canadian aircrew members added to our room who had just joined our 50 Sqdn.
They seemed to get lots of parcels from Canada, and told us we could help ourselves to any chocolates or fruit that we could see in the room they could not cope with it all.
However the Station Warrent [sic] Officer came in one early evening and looked around the room. He said the place looked like a rubbish tip and he would come to look at it each evening and we were not to go out until he looked to see how tidy the room was. At times he was late comming [sic] so it became late each evening for Fred and I to meet Joan & Ena, especially as they had to be back in their billets prompt at 10 Pm.
However one evening the Lancaster that the three Canadians were flying in failed to return and all their clothing and goods were taken out of the room, leaving our room neat and tidy again as it was before the Canadians moved in.
Now that our room was now so clean and tidy, the Station Warrent [sic] Officer said that he would no longer come to visit us each evening as he could see that the room would no longer be full of food parcels etc.
I never did know if the three Canadians lost their lives, but if they did all I could think was that it cost the lives of three men to allow Fred and I to go out early evening to meet our girl friends when we were not flying early evening ourselves.
Having the three Canadians possibly killed made it possible for Fred and myself to go out early and meet our ATS girl friends when we were not on duty ourselves.
Many of [deleted] Fred [/deleted] Ena’s ATS friends had lost their air crew boy friends, and never knew if he had lost his life or not
[page break]
5
Ena’s ATS friend Joan spent all her spare time with Fred Ball our Rear Gunner. Fred was killed when our aircraft was in flames and he didnt [sic] Bale Out.
Lots of Ena’s ATS friends had lost RAF Boy friends flying on operations and tried not to get attatched [sic] to them anymore.
Ena’s Mother came to Lincoln and work in the NAAFI as she was called up to do war work. She chose Lincoln to be near to her daughter Ena.
She had lodgings with a nice lady Mrs Fatchet in Winn St Lincoln. Next door to her was a young lady, that had a small baby, she had it in her arms as we watched the Lancasters flying off on another operation.
She told me that the babies [sic] father was an aircrew member that had been missing from operations for some time, and no one had had any news of him. I always felt very sorry for her as she watched the Lancasters taking off from the Lincolnshire Airfields.
When I knew we were on operations that night I would ring Ena around lunch time, and say to her, I wont [sic] be able to meet you tonight, but all being well will see you tomorrow.
She knew that we were on operations that night.
With my brother Art now a POW in Germany, only two of his crew surviving, my mother was worried what would happen to me. She already knew that our Lancaster was on fire over the Humber Estory [sic]and four members of the crew didnt [sic] have time to bale out and were killed. I went thro [sic] the clouds pulling one of the carrying handles and not the parachute release handle, luckily I pulled the correct one and my parachute opened and I made a safe landing.
We were asked to identify the four bodies in the crashed aircraft
[page break]
6
by one of the senior RAF officers, but not one of us wanted to identify the crushed up bodies in the burned Lancaster. We did’nt [sic] want to go near the aircraft.
On one of our ten operations to Berlin, a German night fighter attacked us and his bullets made a large hole in our Port wing. I thought it was smoke coming out of the large hole in the wing, but our flight Eng. said it was petrol coming from one of the large tanks in the wings.
Arriving back as far as Northamptonshire we were nearly out of Petrol and our Pilot decided to make a landing on the emergency airfield at RAF Wittering to save the extra miles to Lincoln. We circled the airfield, and were waiting for the runway landing lights to come on, expecting any time for the engines to shut down as the petrol had all been used. At last the landing lights came on and we were able to land with all the petrol now used up.
As we entered the Wittering office buildings, we heard the dance band close down and found that no one had been on duty, to turn on the Aircraft landing lights when Aircraft were in trouble and needed to land.
Returning from another of our operations to Berlin we were told to land at RAF Pocklington in Yorkshire, as there was a dense fog in the Lincoln area. We tried a few times to find the runway at Pocklington, but then were told to proceed to RAF Melborne which we found was also foggy.
After flying quite low for some time Michael found it in the fog and managed to land safely.
A large van driven by a WAAF picked us safely up and drove us to their crew rooms. In the fan she had a radio that could hear all of our aircraft calling and saying that they must land as they had little or no fuel left.
[page break]
7
One of our squadron aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed into a nearby farm house, the farmer and his wife were both killed, and only the rear gunner in the Lancaster survived. From then on all the Lancasters on the circuit trying to land were told to Head their aircraft out to sea and Bale Out, which they had to do.
The fog stayed with us for three days up in yorkshire [sic], and we could’nt [sic] return back to Lincoln. We had no washing or shaving items for three days or money to buy anything with, not even our toothe [sic] brush’s [sic] or razors to shave with, we had to stay with our lancasters until the weather improved and we could fly them back to Skellingthorpe.
We had a scare one morning, we had just landed after completing another of our operations, and taxied the Lancaster back to our usual dispersal. Michael Beetham then said to us all, OK everybody “All Switch’s [sic] off.” Before I could check all my radio and inter Comm switch’s [sic], there was a loud scraping noise like a van dragging along the side of the aircraft, followed by a heavy thud.
We all scrambled out of the aircraft and expected to see a small lorry or van firmly stuck to the side of the aircraft, but there was nothing any where near us. The Bomb Aimer went back to the Aircraft and opened the little inspection door panel that allowed him to look down into the Lancasters Bomb bay. He was shocked at what he saw.
A thousand pound bomb had been still in the bomb bay, it had not dropped with the others over the target. Its [sic] a good thing that it didnt [sic] hit its nose cap on the way down the bomb bay or we would all have been blown to pieces.
I’ve often wonderd [sic] how the bomb disposal crews got to remove the bomb without it blowing up the Lancaster.
[page break]
8
We landed early morning after a long trip to Berlin again and our ground crew asked how the aircraft had flown, we all said there were no problems with the aircraft and we all left in a hurry to get back to the Sgts Mess and get our breakfast before getting into bed and have our sleep.
After we were all awake again around tea time we were told that they wanted to show us something about our aircraft. Arriving at the dispersal point of our aircraft “B” baker” the ground crews pointed to a large hole in the port wing where a large bomb had gone thro [sic] and left a large hole you could look thro. [sic] Not only did it go thro [sic] the wing it also went thro [sic] a large petrol tank
Luckily the petrol tank was empty by the time we got to the target. There were three tanks in each wing and this tank was empty when the bomb went thro [sic] it. Had it been thro [sic] the one next to it which was full of petrol we would never have got home and finished as POW’s etc.
On one Berlin Operation as we were getting close to Berlin, I heard the engines on the Lancaster open up and felt the aircraft starting to climb. Our Bomb Aimer Les Bartlett shouted to Jock Higgins our Mid Upper Gunner and said, “Not yet Jock, wait until I say now.” I moved over to our Astro-Dome near my compartment and looked above and in front of us, and I saw straight away a German JU88 Night Fighter which had not seen us.
We flew closely underneath it and Les shouted “OK Jock NOW” They both opened up together and I could see the red hot bullets crashing into the German Heinkel Night fighters. Our Bomb Aimer bullets were being sprayed along its wing area, but I noticed that Jock’s the Mid Upper Gunner, his red hot shower of bullets were going into the cabin area where all the crew members were close together. The JU88 continued to fly steadyly [sic] on for some time whilst the bullets continued to enter the cabin area where the crew were based. After a short time after
[page break]
9
the German night fighter tipped over on its side, with smoke now coming from its engines and cabin area, as it fell lower and lower it was lost from my view.
The forward members of our crew said, that smoke and fire came from it as it plunged down to the burning city below it, and was certainly shot down.
What upset me though, that our bomb Aimer was an officer, and he received a medal for his shooting, but Jock who was only a Sgt received not even a mention.
[underlined] Frank Swinyard Navigator. [/underlined]
Frank Swinyard was a Flying Officer, we sat very close together, and we go on together very well. Frank was our Navigator. Frank and I worked together. He would ask me what stars I could see from the ASTRODOME close by me, when I told him the ones in view, I would take his sextant and read out the degrees & minutes for him to use on his Astro Graph. Also I obtained quite a number of radio bearings for him from distant Radio stations, this helped him to plot his position.
When we were diverted to another Air Base on the way home he would not worry about getting the Lancaster there, he could ask me to get him a QDM to the base, [underlined] QDM COURSE TO STEAR [/underlined] after another on or two, I could take him there.
My worst flying experience was not a bombing operation, but an Air Gunners training flight which we had over the Humber Estory [sic] part of the North Sea of course
We had our own crew of seven, plus another pilot and his two gunners, making ten men altogether.
From Lincoln we had to fly over the Humber Estory [sic] where a spitfire would join us, and in radio contact would continue to attack us whilst our two gunners would train their guns on it as it dived on them. We would then call the Spitfire Pilot & tell him that the other pilot and his two gunners were changing over and we would call him to begin attacking us.
[page break]
10
Cameras were fitted to the guns so the film could be shown after the exercise to see if the Airgunner was using the correct deflection in the attacks etc.
We had our full crew of seven on board the aircraft, along with the other pilot and his two gunners.
On boarding the Lancaster I noticed our Flight Engineer was’nt [sic] taking his parachute with him, I remember saying to him, wheres [sic] your parachute Don, and he said, it’s only a training flight Im [sic] not bothered about that.
The time of the year was January but it was a sunny day although the sea looked very cold should we ever have to land up in it one day, and I wondered, should I be wearing my Mae West. Looking down from the aircraft all I could see now was cloud, so I didnt [sic] know how far away the coast was should you have to use your parachute etc.
The other pilot and his two gunners were moving into their positions in the aircraft, and I noticed that our two gunners had now joined us at the rear of the Lancaster where we could see the other Australian pilot and his two gunners do their part of the exercise.
At the word GO. the Lancaster was taken in a very steep dive, Ive [sic] never seen one dive so steeply, but as it pulled out of its steep dive one of it’s engines burst into flames.
The pilot operated his extinguisher for the engine and for a little time we thought all was well, but after the extinguisher had finished its work, the whole wing seemed to be on fire, and Michael gave the order for all of us to abandon the aircraft. There were only two escape doors in the Lancaster, and ten men who needed to use them.
The Australian Pilot & his two gunners in the front of the aircraft started to bale out of the nose escape exit, as our Mid upper gunner Jock Higgins baled out of the rear exit, but damaged his ribs as he hit the tail plane. I tried to leave by the back exit, but the
[page break]
11
gust of wind blew me back again. I think I was given a push with someones [sic] foot that got me out of the aircraft.
As I fell thro [sic] the air there was nothing but cloud below me, and I didnt [sic] know if I was over the sea or the land.
I did a silly thing I was tugging away at the carrying handle of the parachute pack and not the release metal handle so by the time I had pulled the correct parachute release handle I had already gone thro [sic] the cloud.
A large part of the wing had broken off and was coming down behind me, I’m glad that it drifted away from me and didnt [sic] cut thro [sic] my parachute.
As I got nearer the ground I could see the coast a short distance from me, and I was drifting towards it, then there was a large crashing noise, and smoke and flame as the Lancaster crashed a few miles in land near East Kirkby Airfield and I was still drifting that way myself.
I finally landed in a large field and before I could get in a standing position I saw an RAF van coming towards me with two airmen in it. At the same time some one on a parachute coming down a short distance away landed in a dense spinney, I could hear the branches on the trees breaking as he fell thro [sic] them, I found out later it was the other Australian Pilot.
Our Lancaster had crashed close to East Kirkby Airfield, where I was taken to, there were four men in the aircraft when it crashed and I was asked if I could identify the bodies. I was told they were all crushed, and I just didnt [sic] want to look at them
Fred Ball our Rear Gunner would no longer come with me when I would visit Ena in Lincoln he had every chance to bale out the aircraft early but he didnt [sic] have the pluck to do this Jock Higgins hurt his ribs as he baled out and hit the tail plane, he spent a short time in the base hospital and made a good recovery.
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Following this air crash I would go into Lincoln to see Ena on my own.
Also I was introduced to Ena’s mother who was in lodgings with Mrs Fatchet in Lincoln, whilst working in one of the large NAAFI forces canteens in Lincoln.
Luckily I had plenty of time off when not flying, and during the cold winter day’s [sic] I could ride on my bike and visit Mrs Fatchet at her home in Winn St.
She always made me welcome and found me something to eat, she had a fish & chip shop next door to her so I could always pop in there during the day.
Before going on an operation taking six or eight hours flying time, after no sleep during the day, we were given Wakey Wakey tablets which we only swallowed just before we were airborne, there was no chance of a sleep during the day before going on operations, you didnt [sic] even know where the target was until the main briefing just you were airborn. [sic]
I was the wireless Operator in the crew of Lancaster LL744 VNB 50 SQDN. each morning after breakfast, if I had not been flying the night before, after breakfast I had to visit the Accumulator Store and collect two small but heavy accumulators, on my bike I would ride to our Lancaster, and replace them with the two in the aircraft. I then had to [inserted] VISIT [/inserted] the flight office and collect the form 700 and say the batteries had been changed Sign my name etc. and return the two batteries that I had replaced to the accumulator store. This had to be done by me every day unless I had been on operations the night before.
The batteries had to be changed each day, even if the aircraft had not been flown.
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During one operation the two gunners said how cold they were, especially the Rear Gunner.
Michael Beetham air pilot told me to see what the problem was, I had to put a portable oxygen [inserted] BOT. [/inserted] round my neck before I went down, you wouldn’t last long without one.
I could see straight away what the trouble was, the back door was open & a strong freezing cold wind was coming in.
The flight Engineer came down to help me, but together we could not close the door. There must of [sic] been a wind of over one hundred miles per hour coming thro [sic] the open door and the temp would be around minus thirty degrees.
With the help of I think the Navigator we managed to tie the door up but not fully closed, and leave a sharp knife there to cut the rope should we need to bale out.
One other night the mid upper gunner said his turret had frost all over it and he could’nt [sic] see a thing, he asked me to bring him an axe, I gave him one and he smashed the perspex from the front of his turret so he could see, luckily he had electrical clothing on and could only have the turret facing backwards.
We have a long length of rope close to the back door in the Lancaster, should a crew member loose [sic] an arm or a leg and we are three or four hours from reaching home, we could tie a torch on the wounded crew member, tie a length of rope to his parachute release handle and when passing a large German town or city push the wounded airman out the back door. His parachute would open and he would be seen with the torch and parachute. Hoping he would be rushed to a German hospital to have his life saved.
We called it The dead mans rope.
As a Wireless Operator whilst I was flying on operations I was given a frequency band on my radio to search, and if I picked up a German mans [sic] voice giving out instructions
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[underlined] 14 [/underlined]
I would tune my transmitter to this frequency, and press down my morse code key, this would transmit the sound of one of our Lancaster engines on that frequency and blot him out. A Microphone was placed against one of the engines for that reason.
To prevent to [sic] many aircraft over the target at the same time and hitting each other, we were divided into two or three waves, First, Second, or third wave, we had our own height to bomb the target and the time over the target, but after a long flight to get there we rarely arrived at our time over target, it was not unusually [sic] for an aircraft to get an incendiary bomb thro [sic] its wing whilst over the target, from an aircraft above.
Whilst over the target area a senior RAF officer would be circling the city area, he was the “Master Bomber” he would be shouting out details of which colour’d [sic] flare’s [sic] to aim at, reds or greens etc. His language at times didnt [sic] meet up to an RAF Officer.
On one operation we were told to land at St Eval Cornwall on our way home, but during our flight I received a message, which said cancel Landing instructions “Return to Base” Unfortuneately [sic] the Wing Commanders Wireless Operator failed to get this message and they landed at St Eval. The only crew to land there.
All the Sqdn Aircrew were at the airfield when the Wing Comm landed back at Skellingthorpe to Cheer him home.
At our next briefing for an operation the Wing Commander said, Wireless Operators, make sure you get all the messages broad casts not like some clot I could name that misses them. His wireless operator stood up and said. If thats [sic] what you think of me sir, you
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can get some other Wireless Operator to fly with you tonight, and then started walking towards the door. RAF police at the door moved to stop him leaving, but the Wing Commander said let him go.
I’m glad I was’nt [sic] the Wing Comm Wireless Operator.
The Wireless Operator had an unusual name which you could remember and looking at a long list of aircrew who lost their lives on fifty Sqdn I saw his name on the list.
After breakfast if I found I was in operations that night, I knew that our Sgts Mess Phone was disconnected and to Tell Ena that I would not be able meet her tonight I used to cycle to a nearby village and us the public Phone Box (she always knew the reason why.
On one day when operations were detailed, I found our crew were not on the list of crews taking part.
I needed a few items such as soap & toothepaste [sic] etc and cycled into Lincoln to purchase them.
I found Lincoln rather quiet whilst in the shopping area with no local aircraft flying at the time.
As it became dusk winter time, all the local airfields were preparing for aircraft take off,
Suddenly I heard a heavy Lancaster taking of [sic] from Waddington, taking off with an overload, then another one from our Skellingthorpe, also from Fiskerton & Bardney, all these Lancasters were flying with an overload of bombs and needed all the power their engines had to get them airborn. [sic]
This was the first time I had been in Lincoln City to hear all the aircraft circling round Lincoln with a heavy overload of bombs, they needed all the power their engines had, to get them airborne. The people of Lincoln didnt [sic] seem to take notice of it I suppose they were quite used to it.
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Ena & Joan had given Fred our Rear Gunner & I a brass Lincoln Imp which they said would bring us luck, and told us not to fly without them.
I kept mine on my flying jacket so I always had it with me when I flew. Fred often removed his from his flying jacket and wore it on his tunic when he went out at Evenings.
One evening we had attended briefing for an operation, and were on our way to our aircraft when Fred told us he didnt [sic] have his Lincoln Imp with him, On arriving at our aircraft we told a ground staff member and he said he would collect it from our billet, after we gave him the hut number, and the position of Freds [sic] bed etc. Freds [sic] Lincoln Imp was on his tunic hanging up over his bed. First bed on the left as you go in the main door.
Off went the man in his van and he returned later with Freds [sic] Lincoln Imp which he had removed from Freds [sic] tunic
We all felt better after this, and we hoped it would make Fred more careful to make sure he always wore his Lincoln Imp.
It was a month or two after this that we had to do an airgunnery exercise with some extra members of the crew, during the exercise the pilot put the Lancaster in a very steep dive, which caused one of the engines and the wing to burst into flames. The Lancaster was overloaded with ten crew members taking part. Four crew members were killed when the Lancaster crashed and sadly Fred was one of them.
My bed was next to Fred’s and I didnt [sic] have a very good nights sleep, I lay awake for some time, looking up at Freds [sic] tunic which hung close to my bed the early sun light shone over Freds [sic] bed area, his tunic was hanging up above it, and the sun was shining on a small brass item on the lapel. I could’nt [sic] believe it, it was his Lincoln Imp and he was’nt [sic] wearing it again.
[inserted] PS I still wear my Lincoln Imp. [/inserted]
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I think my first fear of our operational flying was the Lancaster taking off and getting airborne.
At the briefing for the operation we were usually told we would all be flying with a thousand pound overload.
With a normal all up weight of bombs in the Lancaster it took a long run along the runway before the aircraft became airborn, [sic] but when they had added another thousand pounds of bombs on the aircraft it became that bit more stressful.
As the Lancaster began its way along the runway, the Navigator would read the speed it was travelling at, it needed one hundred miles per hour before it could take off.
Some times when the pilot could see that the aircraft was not going to reach that speed at a certain position along the runway, and the gate was getting closer on the throttle control, he would say to the flight engineer, “THRO THE GATE”, and the throttles were pushed that little bit more before the aircraft started leaving the ground.
[underlined] The gate had to be moved to get [/underlined] the take off speed up to 100 miles per hour.
We had an ELSAN toilet at the rear of the aircraft, but it was not used very much when we were flying. We all had our own metal cans close by us that we could use and they were emptied into the Elsan Toilet as we left the aircraft. The Elsan toilet was at the rear of the aircraft, and to get there in flight you needed a portable oxygen bottle to breath for the journey, and for all your layers of heavy clothing, and the temperature around minus thirty degrees you could’nt [sic] take your gloves off and touch anything.
Most of our flying time over Germany was around six to eight hours. Berlin was around eight hours which our crew flew ten times. We went there three times in five days. (Nights)
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In our pockets we had a bag of sweets, and a selection of money according to which country we were flying over. Also we had a map of the area that we could use should we have to bale out and find our way to safety.
If we had flying boots with high leather padding half way up to the knee, a knife would be in one of the boots so the tops could be cut off should you be shot down in Germany, or any enemy country, to make them look just like a pair of shoes, and not flying boots.
We also had water tablets in our pockets to use when selecting water from small streams, or brooks.
As the Wireless Operator I had to know the position of some of the stars, the Navigator would ask me which ones were plainly in view. I then had to use the Sextant and take a shot of the star asked for. This was taken in Degrees & Minutes and the correct time. From this the Navigator had equipment where he could plot his position
3.12.43 around lunch time Michael Beetham was instructed to take his crew to RAF Waddington to collect a Lancaster.
When we got there the Lancaster DV376 was already loaded with bombs and before we took it to our airfield, we had to go off and bomb Leipzig first, then take it to Skellingthorpe
During the operation we were attacked and damaged by a JU88, we were very short of fuel and managed to land at Wittering.
Another Lancaster from Skellingthorpe had to collect us the next day and take us back to our base Skellingthorpe whilst the Lancaster DV376 went thro [sic] repairs.
On the 29.12.43 we had to Bomb Berlin, and had a [sic] Incendiary Bomb through our Starboard Outboard Petrol tank and were lucky to get back home again.
We flew on operations to Berlin ten times, and in doing so, we lost 383 aircraft
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Our first three operations were to Berlin [underlined] 22.11.43 23.11.43 26.11.43 55 MISSING. [/underlined]
114 aircraft missing in our first three operations.
The inter comm system was powered by two smallish Lead Acid Batteries. Every morning, it didnt [sic] matter if the aircraft had flown or not these Lead Acid Batteries had to be replaced.
Each morning after breakfast, I as the Wireless operator, I had to visit on my bike the Battery Store. I had to collect the two batteries on my bike and cycle across the airfield where the Lancaster was parked. I had to change the batteries in the Lancaster. I then had to visit the flight offices and ask for the form 700 for our Lancaster.
I then had to sign it to say the batteries had been changed, then on my bike again I would return the two batteries that I had removed from the Lancaster to the battery store where they would be put on charge again.
This I had to do as the Wireless Operator every day, regardless of the day of the week or the weather. Even if the Lancaster had not left its parking site. The hardest job was finding the form 700.
If we were on our way back after an operation over Germany, and the weather was bad over lincoln [sic],”usually fog”. we would be diverted to another airfield which could be as much as sixty miles away from Lincoln.
To help our navigator, I would contact the airfield and ask for a QDM, a course to steer to reach them. By pressing down my morse key, the receiving station could give me a course to fly to reach their airfield, which I would then pass on to our navigator & the pilot.
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My Navigator was a wind finder, this because he was an experiest [sic] Navigator of around thirty years or more of age.
The winds that he found I would pass them on to 5 group, and these would be passed on to all 5 group aircraft in their half hourly broadcasts.
One evening I spent some time passing wind details to the 5 group radio people not knowing if the receiver was a man or a WAAF female.
In morse code I asked if the receiver was a male or a WAAF. I got a very short but strong answer,
In morse code I got, ([symbols]) which was a [underlined] G [/underlined] and an [underlined] S [/underlined]
The G & the S. was a short way to tell me to [underlined] get Stuffed. [/underlined]
When I attended de briefing after the operation, I asked if the 5 group radio operators tonight were male or female, and I was told they are all WAAF female operators.
All this gave us a lighter side of the serious thing we were doing in bombing cities in Germany ETC.
During our training days at RAF Cottesmore, we would be riding our bikes back to Cottesmore after an evening out at Stamford. Frank Swinyard our Navigator would ask me to point out certain stars in the sky, as he always asked me to do his astro shots for him with the sextant.
He had to make sure that I knew the star that he wanted Both he and our pilot (now Sir Michael Beetham) received the DFC. after war, but for us Sgts, there was nothing.
We always relied on my radio bearings when in trouble to get us home safely.
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When flying over the sea, I was taught to let my trailing aerial out, this hung down from the aircraft and [deleted] locked [/deleted] [inserted] touch’d [sic] [/inserted] the sea when the aircraft was flying at sixty feet.
If the pilot was flying over the sea and in the dark he could not see the water if he was going to ditch.
With my radio on, I would loose [sic] my signal as soon as the aerial touched the sea, and I would tell the pilot we are at 60 ft, and he would land the aircraft in the sea. We would call this ditching, “having to ditch”
When we were doing our training, flying as a crew on 14 operational unit at Cottesmore, I would tune my radio into one of the regular BBC programmes and we would all listen to some nice music, I would turn it down should our pilot want to give us instructions. Our cross country flights sometimes lasted two or three hours.
It became general practice for bomber crews to wear a white silk scarf when flying on operations, printed in black ink on the scarves [deleted] wh [/deleted] were the names of the German cities that the wearer had bombed. This went on for a short time until we heard that airmen shot down over Germany wearing one of these scarves, had one wound round their necks and hung on a lampost [sic] etc. This soon stopped us wearing them anymore.
By this time Ena my ATS girl friend and I had become very close to each other, she knew I was on operations, as I had contacted her & told her I would not be seeing her this evening.
However in the morning on the BBC news they would mention the RAF Bombing raid, then finish by saying sixty five of our bombers failed to return, and she could’nt [sic] believe it when I rang her the next day and said I will meet you again tonight.
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On a bombing raid to a large German city, the RAF Pathfinder Force would have arrived there and dropped marker flares for us to aim at, Greens & Reds.
Along with them would be the master Bomber, he would be in charge of the operation.
Green & Red marker flares were dropped all around the city and his voice could be heard telling us not to aim at the Reds, but hit the greens. I think what surprised me most was his bad language and his swearing.
I spoke to Michael Beetham and asked who was that man using that language over the target and he would say it was Wing Commander So & So.
I never thought that an officer such as Wing Co. would use language like that, I only heard it from Erks as we queued for our lunch.
The RAF bombers arrived over their targets in two or three different waves, each wave flew at a different height, should you be late getting over Berlin, you could have two hundred bombers dropping bombs from above. Our navigator F/O Frank Swinyard always urged Michael Beetham to get to the target on time.
There could be 500 ft between the height of each wave. One night we had a bomb dropped on us from above, it punched a large hole in one of our petrol tanks, passing thro [sic] the wing. We were lucky that the tank was empty, the petrol being used to get us to the target, should it have been the one next to it which was full, we would never have got back to Lincoln.
The wireless operator controlled the heat entering the Lancaster, you could never please all the crew. It entered the aircraft from the Engine Exhaust by the side of the Navigator, If I turned it up to please the pilot & Flight Engineer, the navigator would tap my knee and get me to turn it down a bit.
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[underlined] LANDING INSTRUCTIONS [/underlined]
When there was [underlined] two Squadrons [/underlined] based at the same airfield
This could involve over thirty aircraft wanting to land at their airfield, and most of them had only twenty minutes fuel left in their tanks.
[underlined] NUMBER [/underlined] 1 The first aircraft to arrive had to orbit at three thousand feet, and as he circled the airfield he would call out his position on the circuit such as “CROSS ROADS,” OR “BAKERS FARM,” “RAILWAY STATION”, then NUMBER 2 would arrive and call up and he would follow No 1 on the circuit shouting out NO 2 BAKERS FARM ETC,
After around four of five aircraft were circling at three thousand feet, number one would be told to circle at two thousand feet, but still shout his number and position on the circuit, until he was called down to one thousand feet, where he would call out, No 1 down wind, then he would call out No 1 Funnels, then No 1 “touching” “down” then No 1 clear as he left the runway
Our flying control would give the calling aircraft their number and instruct them when they could reduce their height as long as they all called there positions out whilst flying round the circuit
This would possibly go on for fourty [sic] aircraft to land. Our crews were trained to do this on night training exercises, to prevent aircraft running out of fuel whilst circling the airfield many times waiting to land.
My pilot, Michael Beetham (now Sir Michael Beetham) was told by one of the WAAF M.T. drivers that he could use one of the Commer vans on the airfield to check on the servicability [sic] of the aircraft. He asked me if I could drive a car, and on telling him NO. He then said, I have never driven a car.
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This came about because the Wing Comm. Spoke to Michael Beetham and said, now you have been promoted to a Flt Lt you will have the responsibility of checking the servicability [sic] of the Lancasters in “B Flight, but you can use one of the comer vans to get round the airfield. He didnt [sic] like to tell the Wing Commander that he had never driven a car before.
As the Wireless Operator I had the major hot air supply control close to my seating. Also it was close to where the Navigator spread his maps and charts to keep us on course.
The actual heat came from the flames of the port inner “Roles [sic] Royce” Merlin Engine, and were quite hot at times.
The navigator often got quite hot during checking his Course and direction, and signalled me to turn it down a bit, but after ten minutes or so the crew at the front of the aircraft complained at feeling the cold.
I could never please all of them.
Frank Swinyard FLT.LT. was our navigator, also he was a wind finder, from time to time he would find a wind & I would transmit it to our five group base
We must have had around ten aerials on the Lancaster, most of them small whip radar aerials, these had to be looked at before each flight to check that they had not been damaged by the ground crews
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During the bombing operations that we did to Berlin, I would look out of the astro dome and see areas of Berlin covered in the small incendiary bombs, the wide roads were plain to see running thro [sic] the city with all the buildings on fire each side of the roads.
At regular intervals the four thousand pound cookies would explode in the roads and that part of the wide road could not be seen any more, the whole area was covered in large cicular [sic] explosion areas, and the wide roads that were clear to see at the beginning of the raid, were not there anymore, just one large area of fire.
As we had no washing facilities on the site where we slept, we had to walk some distance to the Sgts mess, there we had washing and shower facilities. After we had been in the showers and dried ourselves we had to fold up our towels and put them back in our canvas hold alls, they never got dry, and were always damp when we used them.
Our canvas hold alls were hung on a long row of coat hooks in the shower room of the Sgts Mess.
After a number of weeks we were told to remove our canvas hold alls from the Sgts Shower rooms for a single day. During this time all the canvas holdalls were removed on a trolley that were [underlined] still [/underlined] hanging on the coat hooks, these hold alls were the property of the Sgts who were missing from operations.
When our Lancaster was taking off with an overload of bombs, I would see the flames comming [sic] from the port inner engine, and spreading over the leading edge of the wing.
It was only a few hours before that I had seen the petrol Bowser pumping petrol into the wings in the same area. And petrol running down the wings.
I felt easier after ten minutes of flight, only a small flame leaving the exhaust.
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During my time with 50 Sqdn at RAF SKELLINGTHORPE aircrew started wearing long silk scarf’s [sic] (pure white) on the scarf’s [sic] were printed in black marking ink the names of the German cities that they had bombed.
We were all proud of our scarves mine had the name of Berlin on it ten times.
This all came to an end when it was found out that aircrew who were shot down and were wearing one of these scarfs angered the german public, that the scarf was hung round the airmans neck and he was hanged from the nearest lamp post or tree.
I dont [sic] think I saw anyone wearing his any longer.
I still have mine in my wardrobe.
The pilot of the Lancaster sat in the front of the Lancaster on the Port (Left) side, behind him sitting at a large table was the Navigator, he needed a large table to spread his maps open so he could read his maps.
Also on the left hand side of the aircraft, behind the Navigator was the Wireless Operator, who had his large Marconi transmitter and receiver in a smaller table, along with his morse key for him to transmit his messages etc.
Also by the side of the Wireless operator was the Monica (aircraft Warning) Receiver which he had to keep his eyes on thro [sic] out the flight.
Down along the Starboard side of the aircraft were a number of box’s [sic] of “Window”. Window was small lengths of stiff paper, with a stiff metal like coating on the paper strips. The Bomb aimer in the nose of the aircraft would thro [sic] out a bundle every five or six mins or so, and each time he would call out Window.
A large blip would show on my Monica screen as it passed us by, and I had no need to shout a warning.
When I saw a blip on the monica screen & the
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27.
bomb aimer had said nothing, I would shout a warning, shouting “CONTACT” “STARBOARD QUARTER UP” our Lancaster would dive in a different direction and for the next few minutes everyone would search the sky until we were sure we were on our own again,.
The paper bundles of window strips were along the bomb bay floor in a row along the starboard side,
As our flight continued I would keep passing these bundles down to the bomb aimer in the nose of the aircraft, and as he said “WINDOW” I would see the blip apear [sic] on my Monica screen.
Its when I saw a blip apear [sic] on my screen and the bomb [inserted] aimer [/inserted] had not spoken that I shouted contact Port, should it be that, or Starboard if it was on our starboard side.
As a Wireless operator I had to tune my receiver to our five Group radio broadcast every half hour to see if they had any messages for us.
One part of my operational flying that I never felt easy with, was when we became airborne on an operation.
The Lancaster always had a one thousand pound over load and the engines needed every bit of power to get us airborn. [sic]
I would look out of my small side window and see the flames leaving the port engine exhaust, the flames were so long they even left large scorch marks on the wings, each side of the engine.
I knew that in those wings were over two thousand gallons of high octain [sic] petrol, the flames would burn the paint off the wings, each side of the engine. This continued until we reached the height we were detailed to fly at over Germany.
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28.
In our flying clothing pockets we had a fare [sic] ammount [sic] of French or Dutch money which we could use if we had to bale out of the aircraft over such as Holland or France. We also had a supply of water purification tablets to make sure we had drinking water. This all had to be handed back in to the Squadron after landing, which we were always glad to.
A little farther down the aircraft where the Navigator sat, and the Wireless operator, was the rest bed, quite a large bed where a crew member could be placed if he had been wounded.
It was also handy for placing spare heavy flying clothing, especially if I myself had to move into one of the turrets to take the place of a gunner if he had been wounded. I would need to wear some heavy warm clothing.
All our Wireless operators had completed an Airgunners course during his training and could man one of the turrets if need be.
During our crew training period at 14 OTU Cottesmore and Market Harborough we were detailed to do long cross country flights taking two or three hours.
I made this period a little more enjoyable by selecting some nice music on the radio and feeding it on to our “inter comm” circuit in the Wellington,.
Our crew always looked forward to this.
But when flying on our operations over Germany we needed every bit of information on the inter comm spoken, and action had to take place immediately
29.
Our Pilot Michael Beetham was concerned that we were always in bed at nights at a reasonable time.
He had nothing to fear for Fred our rear gunner and myself, as our two ATS girl friends had to be in their quarters before ten oclock [sic] at nights failing this they were not allowed out at nights for some time.
We only had a fifteen minutes bike ride back to our hut at Skellingthorpe, and were soon in bed.
Our ATS girls often gave us a sandwich or a slice of cake to eat on our way back to Skellingthorpe so we didnt [sic] go back feeling hungry.
During our operations and the long journey, our reward came when our Bomb Aimer decided which bunch of PFF marker flares he was going to aim att. [sic]
He would then say “Bomb Doors Open”, and a cold draft would fill the aircraft, then he said “Steady” Steady – “Steady”, and then “Bombs Gone”. You could hear and feel the “clonk”, “clonk”, as the bombs left their positions hanging in the bomb bay. The cold air left you as he said Bomb Doors closed.
We all felt better now we had no bombs on board, and the aircraft felt much lighter now all we had was the long journey home, hoping that there would be no fog over our airfield and we could have a nice long sleep.
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Title
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Before I was in the RAF by Reg Payne
Wartime Memories
Description
An account of the resource
An account by Reg Payne of his wartime experiences. Too young to sign up at the start of the war he spent two years in the Home Guard. Training started at age 18 and lasted for two years. He served at RAF Skellingthorpe and his brother served at RAF Fiskerton. His brother was shot down and taken prisoner but Reg was not allowed to go home to comfort his mother.
He met his future wife in the Unity bar in Lincoln.
Reg survived a crash on a fighter training session when four of his aircrew died.
He also survived ten operations to Berlin. On one operation they were shot up and lost a lot of fuel and had to make an emergency landing at RAF Wittering where no one could be found because they were at a party, on base.
Arriving back on another operation they found everywhere fogged in but landed at RAF Melbourne where they had to stay for a few days until the fog cleared. They had no clothes to change into, no money and no toothbrushes.
After one operation they landed safely and on powering down the aircraft a bomb, which should have been dropped over Germany, came free and rattled down the bomb bay without exploding.
Once they came back with a large hole in the wing, made by a bomb.
On another op they shot down a JU-88 night fighter.
Bombing operations were directed by a Master Bomber who set flares.
Reg and Fred were given Lincoln Imps as mascots but the night Fred died he had left his mascot on another tunic.
He describes the landing procedures when 40 Lancasters arrive back at the same time, most low on fuel.
His navigator, Fl Lt Frank Swingerd calculated winds aloft and Reg transmitted these to 5 Group aircraft.
He describes the various operating areas of the crew on board the Lancaster.
Creator
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Reg Payne
Format
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28 handwritten pages
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BPayneRPayneRv2
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
England--Cornwall (County)
Germany
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
14 OTU
5 Group
50 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bomb struck
bombing
civil defence
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
ground personnel
heirloom
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
love and romance
lynching
Master Bomber
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
radar
RAF Bardney
RAF Cottesmore
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pocklington
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Eval
RAF Waddington
RAF Wittering
sanitation
superstition
training
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/654/10670/BWarnerJWarnerJv1.1.pdf
ad7dcfe9fd6e9f68b29b76a8d03246fa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Warner, Jack
J Warner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Warner, J
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Jack Warner DFM (b. 1923, 183090, 1623709 Royal Air Force) his log book, his memoir, a newspaper cutting and photographs. He completed a tour of 37 operations as a flight engineer with 428 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jack Warner and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-04-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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15-9- [indecipherable number torn page]
1
[underlined] Montlucon [/underlined] - was our first target and we were briefed by W/C Smith who’d done countless numbers of ‘ops’. We were given to understand that the trip would be easy with little or no opposition in the form of fighters and a little light flak en route and occasional positions of heavy stuff. We took off at [underlined] 20.00 [/underlined] and being our first trip, didn’t know what the hell to expect. We crossed the French coast at about 17 thou to clear the light flak & flak ships and stooged all the way down France and and saw very little flak except for the defended areas. We arrived over the target area [deleted] at [/deleted] a few minutes ahead of time and stooged around waiting for
[page break]
P.F.F. to start the show. They dropped the G.T.I’s and in we went at about 8,000ft. and we could hear the M.C. bawling over R.T. for us to get down lower (we were ordered to bomb at 5,000) The place was bright as the devil and there were only about 4 heavy guns over the T.A. and the flak was not predicted. We dropped our load and scooted and saw very little flak en route out and the usual light stuff over the French coast. We dived across and stooged back to base. Trip lasted [deleted] 9.55. [/deleted] [inserted] 8.30 [/inserted] Everything went smoothly - engines etc. W/C Smith was missing from this op. Found out later he’d been hit by one or more bombs
[page break]
16-9-43
2
[underlined] MODANE [/underlined] We were given much the same briefing as for the Montlucon and were briefed by S/L Suggit (53 ops). We took off at [underlined] 19.03 [/underlined] and crossed the French coast at 17 thou to miss the light stuff. (which is all the colours of the rainbow) then stooged down France meeting little opposition and passed quite near several heavy defended areas which were indicated by searchlights. At ET.A. target we couldn’t see — all and Norman started checking up and couldn’t find anything wrong and we looked again and saw bags of searchlights and quite a bit of heavy flak in a concentration about 40 miles away but we couldn’t say what it was.
[page break]
Sinc, saw the lake of Geneva and yelled out “Jesus Christ!, I think were [sic] over the Mediterranean!“ - any idea where we are Norman?! Norman said “No”! upon which silence brooded over the flying machine for a space of ten minutes. This was no good, we were running short of gas with our load still on and at the time we were icing up pretty bad so we jettisoned our load over the Alps and Norman pulled his finger out and found our track again. We landed away after this op and George cracked his head whilst in circuit & we left him there in dock. Everything went smoothly - engines etc. 9.00
[page break]
[underlined] 1st HANOVER [/underlined]
3
22.9.43.
Well this was our first real [inserted] “J” [/inserted] trip and were briefed by S/L. Suggitt. We took off at [underlined] 18.30 [/underlined] and crossed the [deleted] french [/deleted] coast at 17,000. Jock Crossaw was flying with us as M.U.G in place of George. Far too much ‘binding’ was going on over the intercom and someone wouldn’t turn their mike off. I bet Jock took a pretty dim view of our crew! he’d done 18 ops. As we went into the T.A. area it was pretty well lit up and there were bags of searchlights and it was a very clear night. There seemed a hell of a lot of light flak going up to about 16T. with bursts of heavy up to 22 in barrage form and it seemed fairly thick. I looked below and could see the old Wimps and Stirlings way
[page break]
below us catching all the light stuff. We dropped our load and beat it. A couple of Halys just missed us. The target was one huge mass of orange flame and smoke visible for about 200 miles away. Sinc saw some heavy flak positions ahead so he altered course to evade [inserted] S. Guy coned. [/inserted] them which wasn’t the right thing to do because we were isolated now from the stream. Out of nowhere a master beam picked us up and we were coned in no time … Then the shit came! and how it came! every godammed gun near Hanover must have fired into the top of the cone where we were. We had some near misses and I was giving Sinc a running commentary on it as he wanted me to do. A piece of flak came thru the nose and made a gaping hole and blew Normans charts etc all over the kite - we bunged it up with a cushion. We were coned on & off
[page break]
For about 10 minutes and Sinc threw the old kite all over the sky. How we got thru it to tell the tale I don’t know to this day and the rest of the crew are of the same opinion. Vic cut his thumb and I dressed it for him. We stooged back to base then and curiously never saw a fighter during the whole trip.
Everything went smoothly in my ‘department’. Fitted a new nose on .J. Johnny.
P.S. We lectured old Sinc about the object of keeping on track ! …. which needless to say he has done ever since! ….. 7.30.
[page break]
4 J.C.
[underlined] Kassel [/underlined] 3.10.43 We were briefed by S.L. Suggitt and took off at [underlined] 18.30. [/underlined] We expected the trip to be just normal. Crossed the French coast at about 17T. and saw the usual light flak with a few scattered heavy bursts. The route was quite good and passed near to the few inevitable defended areas and saw quite a bit of heavy stuff coming up but we were in no danger. When we arrived at target P.F.F. were busy dropping their stuff and there were [deleted] abou [/deleted] quite a number of S.L’s in T.A. Usual light flak and quite a bit of heavy. Saw a kite go down in flames when we made our run up.
[page break]
Dropped our load and beat it. Passed between 2 heavily defended areas on way back. Jack saw a F.W. 190. - gave evasive action and we lost him. The T.A. seemed well lit up but not so good as first raid. Passed heavily defended area on Pt. side crossing coast. Usual dive across coast and stooged back to base.
Everything O.K. in my dept.
Joe Armour had half a rudder chopped off by a Lanc! 7.15.
[page break]
5 C.N
8.10.43
[underlined] 2ND HANOVER. [/underlined] Briefed by S.L. Suggitt and took off at [underlined] 22.54. Jock was still flying with us as M.U.G (damn his luck!) Crossed coast at usual height and saw usual flak coming up. Route was fairly good and we passed the usual heavily defended areas. Reached T.A. and once again on our run up saw a kite go down in flames. As before there seemed to be hundreds of S.L’s all wavering around anywhere just to light the place up for fighters. Seemed to be more heavy flak than previous raid usual light stuff. Hell of a lot a [sic] Lancs crossed our path. Probably given wrong heading to bomb on. Saw quite a lot
[page break]
of big bombs going down sillhoueted [sic] against the fires on the ground.
[page break]
We dropped our load and beat it fast. The T.A. was well alight and it seemed a successful effort. On the route back we passed Bonne on our stbd side and sinc and I saw a kite coned and the usual stuff was pumped up at him (poor sod). The flak stopped and 2 fighters went in and finished the job before he new [sic] where he was. Went down in flames and saw him hit the deck with a huge yellow flash. We stooged back. Were diverted down Sth. Missed B. Balloons by about 50ft. Jock yelled “Get up them stairs Sinc!” 2H.
Everything smooth in my dept.
5.55.
[page break]
6
3.11.43.
[underlined] DUSSELDORF. [/underlined] Briefed by S.L. Suggitt and took off at [underlined] 16.34 [/underlined] Expected it to be rather a stiff trip tonight. George was back with us as M.U.G. Crossed coast at usual height and passed several heavily defended areas en route. Saw quite a few fighter flares which are used to light up the sky so the fighters can pounce on your sillhouete. [sic] Saw fighter but he didn’t attack. Saw T.A. with a good number of S.L’s wavering around, quite a bit of light flak and surprisingly little heavy. Made our run up and dropped load. Raid had only just started and
[page break]
so I couldn’t form much of an opinion of the target area. The fires seemed to be going pretty well though. George saw 2 J.U. 88’s on way back but they were below us and never bothered us. S. Kept turning kite over so George could keep an eye on them - just in case. Route out was good. Usual dive over coast and a few bursts of light flak to cheer us on our weary way.
Everything O.K. in my dept.
Joe Moss’s kite got shot up by fighter over French coast. Crashed down South all crew killed. (22 ops!) Hard lines.
6.55.
[page break]
DURATION - 8.15.
[underlined] BERLIN [/underlined]
7
22.11.43
T.O. @ 16.37. This was 1st. trip to the Big City and I can’t say we were happy about it although we did want to go (speaking for myself) “to see what it was like” The route was pretty good and not too much flak was about. Hanover was lit up as we passed, on the stbd. side but 10/10 cloud prevented the S/L’s from being effective. Saw what were later known (notoriously) as fighter flares which were fired from the ground. They were pretty effective but none troubled us. Approaching Berlin — Saw the 1st T.I. going down and the defences were just beginning to open up - light at first then we made our run up - S.L’s inneffective [sic] due to 10/10 cloud but we were sillhoueted [sic] against bright cloud, from above. Bomb doors open - flak pretty hot - right underneath us and on stbd side - dropped load and stuck
[page break]
2
nose down to get out - quick! After about 6 or seven minutes we were out of danger of the guns of the T.A. Made turn to stbd and headed out for coast. Whole place was lit up - huge glow but couldn’t see clearly for cloud. P.F.F. were bang on with their track marking. Usual flak on way out. Hanover hot - went away round it! Landed at base had interogation, [sic] meal, wash & change and went home on leave straight away!! - bit of a record.
Everything O.K. in my dept.
[page break]
[underlined] LEIPZIG [/underlined]
DURATION - 8.26.
8
[underlined] 3.12.43. [/underlined]
20 BIRTHDAY!
T.O. @ 23.59 - Dark night and low cloud - raining when we T.O. Surprised we got off. Soon got above cloud. Crossed coast at usual height and encountered the usual flak. Route was reasonably good and saw usual flak en route - barrage form. Course took us right for Berlin then turned down to Leipzig. P.F.F. were fooling about over Big City and Mossy’s were around. Saw quite a bit of trace in sky and several fighter flares (red & yellow.) P.F.F. were bang on with track marking the T.M.s dropping just in front of us throughout the whole trip. Making run up - sky marking due to 10/10 cloud. Wizard sight just like fairy land! Whole sky was lit up by reflection of markers on cloud, saw kites all around us. Dropped load, made lovely run - up - then beat it. Didn’t see anything
[page break]
really exciting on way out, except a kite was coned and the [sic] were shooting the day lights out of him - he got away. Good show.
Everything O.K. in my dept.
Today the 4th is my birthday (20)
[page break]
[underlined] FRANKFURT [/underlined] DURATION - 8.30.
9
[underlined] 20.12.43. [/underlined] T.O. @ 16.00. - early T.O. Took a sprog pilot with us to let him see what it is like before he takes his own crew out. He sat or stood most of the way up by Sinc. Crossed coast @ usual height and encountered usual flak - light stuff, nowhere near us. Red tracer stuff coming up like hell, could watch it for hours! Then explodes like a tiny star - at a distance! Route was good approached T.A. and saw the attack on Manheim [sic] which seemed very near. T.I’s were dropping, could see ground quite clearly, about 3/10 cloud. Several fighter flares were about and dozens of S.L’s (mostly to port) wavering about. Decent amount of flak. Made a lousy run up - dropped load and beat it - like a “bat outa hell” Hundreds of fighter flares lighting up the sky all around us. Fighter came in at us from
[page break]
stbd quarter. George gave evasion action and fighter never opened up. Arty fired 200 rounds at him. Beat it fast! Quite a bit of flak and S.L’s on way out saw a chap coned but he got away. Landed at base O.K.
Everything O.K. in my dept.
[page break]
[underlined] BERLIN [/underlined] 10 DURATION - 7.55
[underlined] 20-1-44 [/underlined] T.O. @ 23.55 - Early T.O. Took another sprog pilot “Mac” along with us to get the gen. Nice guy. Crossed enemy coast and greeted by usual opposition, Route good - usual defences Several fighter flares - almost 10/10 cloud Made run up. Decent amount of flak over T.A. - very bright over T.A. despite cloud and could see several kites sillhoueted [sic] against sky below us. Saw a “scare-crow” over T.A. were heading straight for where it burst - huge ball of red fire and oily smoke whizzing round and round. Quite a sight. Bomb doors, open. George yelled “Stbd go”, a fighter was on our tail. Vic dropped load and Sinc whipped the Hally round (with B.D’s still open) and if the designers could have seen that manoevre, [sic] I think they would have said a silent prayer!
[page break]
Sinc is really hot on evasive action fighter broke away and we beat it.
Everything OK. In my dept.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jack Warner's account of first ten operations
Description
An account of the resource
First operation to Montluçon 15 September 1943. Briefed as easy trip with little opposition. Arrived early and waited for Pathfinders, bombed from 8000 ft. Wing Commander Smith missing from operation reported hit by bombs. Operation 2, Mondane 16 September 1943. On arrival at ETA no target in sight. Saw anti-aircraft fire 40 miles away, saw Lake Geneva, one crew though they were over Mediterranean, no idea where they were. Short of fuel and icing up they jettisoned bombs over the Alps diverted on return. Mid upper gunner banged his head and was left at diversion airfield. Operation 3, first to Hannover 22 September 1943. Flew with replacement mid upper gunner. Lots of searchlights and anti-aircraft fire over target, saw Wellington and Stirling below catching light anti-aircraft fire. Target was mass of orange flame visible from 200 miles away. Altered course on return to avoid coned aircraft and was isolated from stream and subsequently illuminated by master searchlight for 10 minutes and engaged by heavy anti-aircraft fire. Hit in nose leaving hole which blew navigators charts all over. Operation 4 Kassel. Pathfinders marked target, saw aircraft go down, released bombs, saw FW 190 on return. Reported that another aircraft had had half its rudder chopped off by a Lancaster, Operation five, 2nd Hannover on 8 November 1943. Still with replacement mid upper gunner, saw aircraft go down while on the run in to target. Lots of searchlights to illuminate for fighters and saws lots of aircraft crossing their run in. On return saw aircraft coned, engaged by anti-aircraft fire and then finished off by two fighters. Operation 6, Düsseldorf on 3 November 1943. Regular mid upper gunner back. Reports many fighter flares and saw a fighter but it did not attack. Searchlights in target area and dropped load. Saw Ju 88 on way back. Another aircraft was shot up over French coast and crashed down south with all crew killed. Operation seven, Berlin 22 November 1943. First trip to big city. Searchlights ineffective due to 10/10 cloud. Saw fighter flares. Saw target indicators going down and defences then opened up. Dropped load and dived out, took seven minutes to clear. Pathfinders dropped good route markets. Operation eight , Leipzig on 3 December 1943 (20th birthday). Saw fighter flares, Mosquito pathfinders, bombed on sky markers due to 10/10 cloud. Operation nine, Frankfurt on 20 December 1943. Took along sprog pilot for familiarisation. Describes anti-aircraft fire bursting, saw attack on Mannheim nearby. Dropped load and beat it but engage by fighter from starboard quarter, mid upper gunner called evasive action and fighter did not open up. Gunners fire 200 rounds at him. Operation ten, Berlin on 20 January 1944. Took along sprog pilot. Saw fighter flares and anti-aircraft fire over target. saw aircraft silhouetted by cloud below. Saw scarecrow over target, huge fireball with oily smoke whirling round. Fighter attacked them on the bomb run, evasive action called by gunner, jettisoned bombs and pilot whirled Halifax around with bomb doors still open. Fighter broke away and they returned to base.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Montluçon
Germany
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Alps
France--Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-15
1943-09-16
1943-09-22
1943-10-08
1943-11-03
1943-11-22
1943-12-03
1943-12-20
1944-01-20
Creator
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Jack Warner
Format
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Twenty-two page handwritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BWarnerJWarnerJv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alan Pinchbeck
David Bloomfield
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
Fw 190
Halifax
Ju 88
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Mosquito
Pathfinders
Scarecrow
searchlight
Stirling
target indicator
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/797/10779/PDeanJEH1701.2.jpg
bceede6a4853b1983c889df55bddcadc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/797/10779/ADeanJEH170913.1.mp3
6f47adb3b5809113563fa431fe9e92f6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dean, John Eric Hatherly
J E H Dean
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Dean DFC (1922, 173978 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dean, JEH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is John Dean. The interview is taking place in Mr Dean’s home in Westerham in Kent on the 13th of September 2017. Ok, John if you could perhaps tell me where and when you were born and a bit about your early life.
JD: Yeah. Well, I was born at Edmonton in North London in 1922 which means that I’m ninety four. Ninety five next birthday. And I grew up mainly in London but my family moved out when I was about twelve and we went to, to live in Middlesex. And I remember on the morning of the 15th of August 1940 standing outside the house where I lived with my parents and watching a German aircraft which I think was an FW190 being pursued by a Spitfire. This was in, coming from North London and the FW190 had smoke coming out of its engines and obviously the Spitfire had [coughs] had shot it down. It was pursuing it until it crashed. And from that moment on I decided I wanted to be a Spitfire pilot. And as I was just over eighteen I was able to go to the RAF recruiting office in London and I joined up. I joined up on the 1st of November 1940 when I was eighteen years and four days, four days, five days old. So that was my introduction to the Air Force. Unfortunately, I didn’t achieve my ambition of becoming a Spitfire pilot because although I did elementary and basic flying training on, on Tiger Moths and later on Harvards I met my Waterloo on Harvards because I developed this annoying habit of landing the aircraft about thirty feet above the runway. So [laughs] they took me off Harvards and sent me to a navigation school in, in Canada in fact which was quite interesting and I did my training there and came back, and I was, ultimately found myself in Bomber Command with 77 Squadron.
DM: When, when you went to Canada you went by ship I assume.
JD: Yes. Sure.
DM: Was that sort of eventful or was it an easy, an easy trip?
JD: Well, only eventful to the extent that it was very uncomfortable because we went out in a very small Dutch vessel called the Volendam. And it was only about, I don’t know twenty five thousand tonnes or so. A very small ship and there were masses of us crowded in this small ship. And for most it took fourteen days to cross the Atlantic, and most of the time we were in a violent storm and the number of people who were sick on each other. I can remember it, you know with some horror really. But on the way back we came back on the Queen Mary which was then a troop ship and that did the trip in three and a half days so that wasn’t too bad. Yes.
DM: Whereabouts in Canada did you train?
JD: Well, we went eventually, initially to a place called Saskatchewan. Swift Current in Saskatchewan and we went by train from Halifax and that took, as far as I can recall it took about four days to get to, to Swift Current which was then a tiny hamlet but today I gather its quite a rather large township. And there I did some flying training on, on Harvards, and as I say my training came to an end and I then went back. Was transferred to a place called Chatham in New Brunswick to do my navigation training.
DM: So you came back to the UK. Trained as a navigator. So, I suppose the next thing, was it crewing up that happened next?
JD: Yeah. We went to [pause] it was either 1652 or 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit at, it was either Marston Moor or Lisset. I can’t remember precisely and there I got crewed up with an Australian pilot called [Gallant Lee] and he had already acquired all the other crew members and it was, it was the flight engineer who approached me asking me if I was looking for crew. So I said yes and that’s how, you know I met my crew. And as soon as that happened of course we were posted off to, to 77 Squadron and we did half our tour with Bill [Gallant Lee] at Elvington.
DM: What type of aircraft were you flying?
JD: Halifaxes. We started off in the early Halifaxes with inline engines. The Merlins. And of course they were very much underpowered. Anyway, we did half the tour with Bill [Gallant Lee] the Australian and then he was grounded with sinus trouble. So, we were then transferred back to I think it was 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit which was then Marston Moor to find another pilot which we did. And he was a South African. A flight lieutenant called Smiler Welch. And he was called Smiler because he was never seen to smile. Typical RAF humour, you know. So we got back to the squadron with Smiler Welch, and he immediately became a flight commander which meant that we didn’t operate very often. Perhaps once every two or three weeks rather than every other night. So it meant that we took about six months to complete our tour. So all in all we were on the squadron for a year to complete a tour. Which was much longer than most people of course. Anyway, we, we were successful in completing our tour of thirty three ops which included six mine laying trips, which as you probably know was each mine laying trip was counted as a half. And then that took us up to July or, yeah July or August 1944 and at the end of my tour I was transferred back to Marston Moor as an instructor. And that lasted for about six months until about December 1944, or January of forty, no. It must have been a bit later because we were posted. Oh, incidentally yes I acquired a new crew at Marston Moor and at the end of the six months training we were posted to India. And we were all packed up ready to go when the war ended fortunately. So we didn’t go to India. So I stayed on. I forgot to mention at the end of my training my crew and I were transferred to Transport Command and we stayed on in Transport Command until I left the RAF in 1947.
DM: So we go back to I suppose really you could say that your operation, your thirty flights or more because you did some mine laying flights was sort of split into two halves with two different pilots.
JD: Yeah.
DM: As you said the chap who had the problem with his sinuses and then the South African. Were they both similar in their outlook or —
JD: Completely different.
DM: Right.
JD: Yeah. Bill [Gallant Lee], he took a violent dislike to me when we met [laughs] He used to refer to me as, ‘That bloody pommie,’ you know [laughs] And anyway eventually we settled our differences and got on extremely well. And I liked Bill. He was a very straight talking Australian as most, most Australians are and he died, oh it must be about ten or fifteen years ago and I was very sorry to hear that. Yeah. Completely different to Welch. He was a very, what’s the word I’m looking for? He never said very much and —
DM: Taciturn, I suppose.
JD: Gave the impression he was terribly unhappy with life generally, you know. And whereas my flight engineer, unfortunately he died two years ago he kept in touch very closely with Bill [Gallant Lee] in Australia and actually visited him. With Smiler Welch he, at the end of the war he disappeared from our orbit and we never heard from him again. And I don’t know whether he’s still alive or not. I did try to find out some years ago by writing to somebody in South Africa. There’s an organisation which is connected to the RAF but they had never heard of him. Anyway, so that was Welch. A completely different cup of tea.
DM: Have you any particular memories from operations? Any close calls? Any sort of particular horrors, or —
JD: During our tour?
DM: Yes.
JD: Well, yes I mean it is extraordinary. I’ve always, I still think this, I thought it for some time. I think it’s extraordinary how in the midst of such horror going on with aircraft being shot down and being, catching fire and so on we virtually sailed through our thirty three ops with hardly a scratch. I did think there were a number of people who experienced the same thing, but there were one or two incidents where we came very close to meeting our doom as it were. One was a case where we were bombed by another aircraft and this was on a daylight raid. Not a daylight raid. A night raid to a place called Lens which was a big, big marshalling yard in France and it was so important that the Pathfinders had lit up the place with their flares so when we got there it was just like daylight and there were about three hundred and fifty aircraft converging on this place, Lens. And as we were doing our bombing run the flight engineer, Derek who was standing up next to the pilot and on the Halifax there was an astrodome immediately above where the engineer worked. He looked up and he said, he said, ‘There’s an aircraft right above us.’ And then there was a pause of a few seconds and he said, ‘There’s a bomb coming down.’ And a few seconds later it hit the aircraft and came in to the Halifax. Well, we were a bit, well to say a bit scary was probably an understatement but we just waited for this damned thing to explode but it didn’t. And then after about a minute or so the pilot said to the engineer, ‘Derek, go back and see what it is.’ And he undid his, his intercom and went back and then a few seconds later he came back on and said, he said, ‘I’ve got the bomb. It’s a twelve pound oil bomb.’ And by that time the, the aircraft that that had dropped it had moved off but Derek knew sufficiently enough, enough about aircraft to identify it as being a Stirling. And then there was a debate in the aircraft I remember. Half the crew wanted to take the damned thing back, the bomb. And the other half wanted to get rid of it.
DM: Which half were you with?
JD: What?
DM: Which side were you on?
JD: I wanted to keep it actually [laughs] and then the pilot intervened and said, ‘Enough of this bloody nonsense. Get rid of it.’ And so Derek got rid of it. So that was a very close call because I gather that there were untold instances of aircraft being bombed but nobody lived to tell the story. But we were probably very lucky. And then we had one or two encounters with, with night fighters which was a bit scary and on one occasion we were very severely hit by an anti-aircraft shell which completely disabled all our electrics. It didn’t interfere with the flying ability of the aircraft strangely enough. The engines kept working. But it meant that when we got back to UK we had no means of communicating with the ground and at the same time we, I was operating a navigational aid called Gee. You’ve probably heard of it. And that didn’t work, and it was still very dark when we got back to the UK and none of us had a bloody clue as to what, where we were. So we were stooging around UK looking for somewhere to land and then we saw this runway lit up and so we just went, went in and landed and of course we were unable to tell the people who we were so they started firing at us with, [laughs] well, I suppose it must have been some sort of cannon or something. Fortunately, they were very bad shots. Anyway, we landed and we couldn’t open the hatch to get out because this anti-aircraft shell had damaged the door so they had to, the people, the people on the ground had to go off and get a long piece of wood and smash the door in. So, and then we found out that we’d landed at a, what was it called? [pause] What was the name of the training unit before an HCU?
DM: Oh.
JD: It’s something like an Initial Training Unit or something.
DM: Yes. Yes.
JD: Anyway, it was, it was Silverstone which later became, you know the motor racing place, and they were training crews for Bomber Command using Wellingtons. So that, you know what was a nice ending to the story too. Again, what could have been quite a nasty ending because we were lucky to find an aircraft. I think we had about ten minutes petrol left when we landed. Yeah. So one or two quite narrow escapes, but from which we, we emerged successfully as it were.
DM: Was that the only time you got lost or did you have other — ?
JD: No [laughs] To my everlasting and undying shame we got completely lost on my first operation which was to Mannheim. And Mannheim is, let me see, it is, it is northwest of Berlin and it is situated between Berlin and the north coast of Germany. Up near [pause] I can’t, it’s, it’s sort of in the Lubeck, Lubeck area, where the coast is. And the route planners took us up north of, of the northern coast over the North Sea so that to give the impression to the Germans we were heading for Berlin, and then about fifty miles short of Lubeck we had to turn a sharp right and approach Mannheim from the north. Well, somehow and I don’t know how it was I turned right about twenty miles west of Lubeck instead of fifty. No. The other way around. Sorry. We turned right which is what we should have done so that it took us down to the west of Mannheim, and I remember the flight engineer saying after we’d flown, after we’d turned right for about an hour or so the flight engineer saying, he said, ‘It’s very strange,’ he said, There’s a big, big fire on our, on our port side.’ He said, ‘I wonder what that is.’ So I had a look at my chart and then I realised I’d made a gigantic error. So I said to, it was still Bill [Gallant Lee] then, I said, ‘Bill, I’m dreadfully sorry. I’ve made a complete cockup,’ I said, ‘We’ve turned too early.’ And I said, ‘Mannheim is on our left.’ And he said, ‘Ok.’ So he turned the aircraft to the left and we, instead of approaching Mannheim from the north we were on the west side of Mannheim and we were meeting aircraft coming out of Mannheim having dropped their bombs. So, again it was rather a perilous thing to do but we did it. We went back and dropped our bombs on Mannheim and managed to get through. So when I can, you know I think it was an example of the guardian angels looking after us really. But when I got back we had to, I had to discuss, you know the trip with the squadron navigation officer which was the usual thing and he looked at me and he said, ‘John, you are bloody lucky aren’t you to be here?’ And he was right actually. But that was the only time I got lost I think.
DM: When you were training navigators after your, you know, when you went to the HCU to be trainer was that mainly ground based or was there a lot of flying?
JD: On the contrary, no. We, most of the time we spent in the air. This was at Chatham, in New Brunswick. Most of the time we were flying Ansons and you know, the training at Brunswick I do recall was very exhaustive, and we were trained by Canadian instructors and they were very, very good and passionate about the job they were doing, you know. And we spent, I can’t remember exactly I’d have to refer to my logbook, but we spent a great number of flying hours in Ansons training and one of the things we did was to take, we did quite a lot of training on aerial photography. And somewhere in the house here I’ve got quite a lot of photos of, taken from Ansons. A very slow, sort of noisy aircraft but very interesting.
DM: When you were a trainer so, because you did some training between your tours I think, didn’t you?
JD: Yeah. Well, I was with [pause] I did my, yeah I was an instructor at I think it was 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit and of course there we flew again. I think it was Wellingtons. I can’t remember. But my job was to, again mainly in the air. I did very little instructing on the ground. I used to go up with trainee navigators as part of their training to observe what they were doing and to correct them if I thought they were doing anything wrong. So I did quite a lot flying there.
DM: Where were you based when you were doing that?
JD: I think that was Marston Moor. I should have got my logbook with me but I think that that would tell me. But I think it was Marston Moor. Quite near York. A celebrated historical place, of course.
DM: Indeed.
JD: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. So, I assume that included night exercises as well as daytime flying.
JD: Sorry, the —
DM: Night exercises as well as daytime when you were assessing the navigators.
JD: Oh yes. Sure.
DM: Was that, did you feel safe? Or —
JD: Well, yes because [pause] did I feel safe? Well, I suppose I did [laughs] Yes. I mean we were using, we were using Gee and whereas Gee was jammed over, over Europe, in Britain it wasn’t of course and it was an excellent navigation aid that I recall. So we were never lost at all. So I felt you know completely confident that we’d get back all right.
DM: So then you were supposedly going to go to India but as you say that didn’t happen because the war ended. And then, but you were in Transport Command.
JD: Yes. We were. After the war we were transferred from Elvington in Yorkshire to a place called Stradishall in, in Suffolk and that was about twenty five miles south of Bury St Edmunds. And Stradishall Aerodrome was a peacetime RAF base so that all the buildings were pre-war RAF buildings, including the officers mess because by that time I’d been commissioned. And whereas previously in, at Elvington we had to bunk down in in Nissen huts at Stradishall we had posh buildings and rooms to ourselves you know. So that was quite a step up in the social world as it were. Yeah. And the aerodrome of course was right next to Stradishall village. A tiny village. About two or three hundred people and it was there, of course I met my wife and got married.
DM: So, she was a local girl was she?
JD: Yeah. She was the wife of the local vicar so, and I met her in a pub dare it be said. Yeah. So, that was Stradishall and we operated out of Stradishall flying a variety of aircraft including the York which was the model, the civilian version of the Lancaster. And the York was the first aircraft where we were allowed to smoke. In Halifaxes and I understand Lancasters and certainly Wellingtons it was absolutely taboo to smoke in aircraft. Unlike the Americans where they used to issue out cigars if you wanted them I gather. But in the York I don’t know why but we were allowed to smoke. Most of us did smoke then of course so that we did. But we used [pause] yes. Smoke. Sorry, Yorks and Stirlings, and the Stirlings were found to be not very stable aircraft, and there were a number of crashes both her in the UK and also enroute. And the route to India took us via Libya. That was the first stop. I remember that it took us ten hours from our base in Stradishall to get to the first bit. The first landing stage in Libya. So we were pretty worn out then, and then after we’d spent a night there and then the next stage was Cairo West which as the name indicates is west of Cairo and that only took about, about eight hours. Seven or eight hours. And then we went from Cairo West to Habbaniya or Habbaniya I’m not quite sure which is the right pronunciation, in Iraq which was an RAF base. A peacetime base. And we landed there for refuelling and then after a few hours we took off, and then we went through to Karachi which was the end of my journey. Although on one occasion we went down to Madras so the whole of that trip was of course very interesting. And I remember on one occasion we were going in to Habbaniya or Habbaniya in Iraq and there was some natives on the ground who started, who had rifles and they started firing at us. So the pilot said to ground control, he said, ‘What the hell’s happening?’ And the controller said, ‘Well, go around and disappear for a minute because we’ve got a little tribal war going on.’ And apparently in that area one tribe used to fight with another sort of every other Wednesday, you know, and that sort of thing. And when we appeared we were another choice target and fortunately they were very bad shots. Anyway, that was quite exciting.
DM: What sort of things were you carrying?
JD: Well, mainly war material but it was all boxed up so we didn’t, we didn’t know what it contained. We assumed it was things like guns and other stuff which, which couldn’t be left in India. And occasionally half a dozen people but not very many because the aircraft wasn’t really converted to carry passengers. It was mainly boxes and we never knew quite was in them. It could have been bombs I suppose but they never told us. Also we were able to, I remember on one occasion we were allowed to bring, I think it was one item which we brought locally in Karachi and most of the, most of my crew bought carpets so there were quite a large proportion of the air craft was taken up with carpets. Anyway, we got those through. Yes. Happy days.
DM: Did you used to fly things out to India or was it an empty aircraft?
JD: Sorry? No. As far as I recall we flew out empty. I can’t remember [pause] Yeah. I don’t think we took anything out. It was, we were just meant to bring things back. Quite why they used aircraft to do this I never found out because it would have been a damned sight cheaper to use, you know ships. I suspect that those boxes contained, you know what we would refer to as secret material of some kind but they never told us. Never told me anyway. I suppose the pilot knew. And in those days of course when you’re young you tend to accept things without question don’t you?
DM: That’s true.
JD: Which we did.
DM: So you were doing that for about two years.
JD: Yeah. Again, I’d have to refer to my logbook. Yeah. Actually, I’ve got the chronological times a bit wrong. I was transferred from Elvington, the squadron to Marston Moor as an instructor in July 1944 and that went on until December 19 — 1944. January. And then in January 1945 I’d forgotten to mention I was transferred from Marston Moor to [pause] to Stradishall. That’s right. I’m sorry. I think I said that I went from Elvington to Stradishall. That’s not the case. I went from Marston Moor to Stradishall where we were formed up as 51 Squadron and it was 51 Squadron who did all the flying to India. So, I hope you can make —
DM: Yeah.
JD: Sense of all that. And so we flew from India from, from [unclear] flew to India from Stradishall from about January 1945 to July ‘47. Just over two years.
DM: Did you volunteer for that or did you not have any choice?
JD: We were just told, you know.
DM: Right.
JD: There was no question of —
DM: Yeah. Yeah.
JD: Yeah. Well, they had to. I mean, now that it is all over of course one realises that Bomber Command HQ had to find somewhere to put all its aircrew, surviving aircrew you know so that they could become gainfully employed. And I suppose Transport Command was the obvious choice really. I mean I don’t know how many other members of 77 Squadron ended up in Transport Command. All that I know is that we were told to go there. We went.
DM: Could you have stayed on longer if you’d wanted to?
JD: Yes. I could and in fact that was my intention. I wanted to stay on in the RAF but my wife, well we got married fairly, fairly soon after we met really. Oh yes. It was at Stradishall on 51 Squadron after I’d got married there that we, I was posted, we were posted to India. And when I said, told my wife about this she said, ‘Do you really want to go?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And she said, ‘Well, I don’t want you to go either. What about coming out of the RAF?’ So, that was why I left really.
DM: Right. What did you do when you came out?
JD: Well, I spent some time trying to find out what I wanted to do and eventually came up with the, with the answer that I wanted to be a surveyor. And at that time the Royal Institution of Charted Surveyors which I wanted to become a member of had arranged training courses at various places and I applied for one and I got a training place. And this was at [pause] somewhere near Reading I think it was. I can’t remember. And that training lasted for about six months to give us a basic, a basic idea what a surveyor did and then the rest of the time in order to qualify I got a job at Ipswich where my wife was living and did home study to qualify. And that took me about three years and then eventually I sat their exams and did qualify and I became an Associate Member of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. But I then did, having qualified it sounds strange to say this but I found it very difficult to get a job, a paid job and this was because so many people had decided to travel this route because of this, the availability of this training. And the only job I could find was in Manchester and I went home and told my wife. She said, ‘I’m not going to Manchester.’ I said, ‘Well, what will we do?’ She said, ‘Well, we must find something else to do.’ And then I spoke to a colleague of mine who’d, he wasn’t . He didn’t train as a surveyor. He’d done something else. And he said, ‘Why don’t you write to — ’ he said, ‘I do know that they need surveyors abroad. Why don’t you write to the Colonial Office and ask them if they’ve got any vacancies?’ Which I did, and they wrote back. Well, I went up for an interview and they wrote back six weeks later and said, “Dear Mr Dean, we can offer you, thank you for coming for an interview. We can offer you a post in Hong Kong.” And I really wanted to go but my wife wasn’t very keen so I wrote back and said, “Well, thank you very much. Do you have anything a bit sort of a bit nearer? Say, like Africa?’ And they wrote back strangely enough and said yes and they offered me another job in Northern Rhodesia. So that’s where I went and I spent fifteen years there. Not as a surveyor. I went out, they said to me that the only job available at the time was as an administrator. So I went out as a, what was called a district officer and spent, you know fifteen years there. And that was quite good fun. Africa of course was, well I don’t know about today of course. It’s a bit, it’s a bit sort of full of guns and dictators but in our time of course it was very peaceful and the conditions of work were very good. We used to do a tour of three years and get six months leave and that sort of thing. Ostensibly, the six months leave was because of the unhealthy living conditions but where we were in Northern Rhodesia we found it extremely healthy but fortunately the authorities hadn’t caught up with that.
[telephone ringing – interview paused]
DM: So you came back, I suppose. Back to the UK.
JD: Yeah. Came back to the UK and I got a job as a, with a national training organisation where eventually I became a personnel manager and that, that lasted until about fifteen years when the training organisation I was with closed down. And so for the second. Oh yes. I was with, I was in Northern Rhodesia until it became independent. It became Zambia and I stayed on. It became, Northern Rhodesia became independent in October 1964 and I stayed on for a couple of years until, until ’64. Yeah. Until ‘66 ’67. And then I decided that it was time to retire and come back because there really wasn’t much future in Zambia for white civil servants quite naturally. So I came back and I managed to find a job as I say with this training organisation where I became personnel manager and that lasted for fifteen years until the organisation closed down. And then I became, I was very lucky because I was out of work for about two or three months which I found extremely boring. Then I don’t know quite how it happened but I managed to find a job as, as bursar to a school in Kent and that lasted until well past retiring age. So, again I was very lucky.
DM: Did you keep in touch with people from the Air Force?
JD: Yes. Well, I kept in touch with, I’d already said the pilot, by that time of course Bill [Gallant Lee] our first pilot had died and Smiler Welch, the second guy, pilot had just disappeared. But I kept in close touch with Derek Compton, my flight engineer and we used to meet up occasionally. He lived down in Dorset at Christchurch and he died about two years ago. I also met up with my wireless operator who lived in Liverpool and I did a trip up there to meet him. I got along with him extremely well. And I also met, I also met the rear gunner. Butch Sutton. He was called Butch because he was the son of a butcher you know. RAF term. The bomb aimer I didn’t keep in touch with because he lived in Scotland and the rear gunner [Kitch May] sorry, the mid-upper gunner [Kitch May] lived in Cornwall. But I used to, we used to correspond [Kitch May] and so for a few years anyway I kept in touch with most of the crew but towards the end it was because they, you know how it is you stop writing and stuff like that. But with Derek Compton my flight engineer I stayed with him several times and unfortunately the poor chap died about two years ago. So yes I did keep in touch and also 77 Squadron formed a Squadron Association which I joined and we formed, when I say we members in the south of England formed a sub-branch because the main meeting was up in Yorkshire I believe. Anyway, there were about a dozen or so of us in the south who formed this sub-branch and we used to meet every May at [pause] I’m afraid my memory isn’t very good these days, a town down [pause] I can’t remember where it is. The town begins with M but it doesn’t matter the name of the place. We used to meet at the White Horse in this town starting with M and there were about a dozen or so of us and we used to meet sometimes with our wives or girlfriends, whatever and chat and have lunch you know. And I used to meet Derek Compton my engineer there. He was there on every occasion. And I used to pick up another navigator from 77 Squadron who was badly shot up over [pause] again my memory lets me down. It’s a big, a big port in France. In Brittany. Beginning with B I think it is.
DM: [unclear]
JD: Can you remember it? You can’t. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But the poor chap got badly shot up and virtually lost an eye so he was grounded and he lived at [pause] oh dear. Again, my memory for places. He lived at [pause] well about thirty miles from here towards Guildford. Near Guildford. He lived near Guildford and I used to get there and because, because of his eye he couldn’t drive and he, he had a very nice Mercedes car. And when we first met he said to me, ‘Will you drive me to the reunion?’ I said, ‘Of course I will,’ I said, ‘But there’s one condition.’ He said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘You let me drive your Mercedes.’ And he said yes. So once a year I got the opportunity of driving this magnificent car down to wherever it was. And the poor chap he developed dementia and eventually was admitted to a home. You know, a nursing home and died there about three years ago. But he and I, we knew each other from, from the squadron and we got on extremely well. And he, he ended up as a director of operations with British Airways so he had done very well. But I remember one of his drawbacks was on the way down, driving in this car of his he kept on saying to me, ‘Now, do you know where you are, Dean?’ you know [laughs] And I used to tell him, I used to say, ‘For God’s sake, shut up otherwise we shall get lost.’ But we had a good relationship and I’m sorry, I was very sorry he died, you know. Yeah. Those were most of the people who went, who attended these, these May meetings. Of course, it got to a point where it was difficult for them to drive or get to to the meetings. So we abandoned it or it was abandoned about two years ago. And it was started I remember that the whole this, this sub-branch was started by a man called Varley, who was another navigator who I knew and he unfortunately he died to. So I’m beginning to think I’m about the only one left from 77 Squadron. There must be others. Talking about the survivors I was interested to find out quite recently how many Bomber Command aircrew are left alive today. And I’ve always thought it was about between three and four thousand and I tried to get in touch with the Bomber Command Association of which I used to be a member but I gather that’s been completely disbanded now because there are so few members. And then on the internet, I use the internet quite, quite a lot on Facebook I came across this Bomber Command history forum and in the forum was somebody there call Dee mentioned the IBCC. You probably know about this lady, Dee.
DM: I’ve heard.
JD: You know about her. Well, she in fact put me in touch with the IBCC or reminded me because I’d been in touch before and I posted this question on Facebook and she came back and said she’d spoken to somebody at IBCC and they thought it was just over two thousand. But nobody really knows because no records have been kept have they?
DM: No. No.
JD: So, it’s all guesswork really but I think two or three, between two or three thousand is right. I mean immediately after the war there was something like a hundred and twenty thousand left. But the war, that’s what we are talking about? Getting on for seventy years ago now, aren’t we? So, there can’t be many left.
DM: No. Do, do —
JD: Yeah.
DM: Do you remember your time with Bomber Command with fondness or —
JD: With —?
DM: With fondness or —
JD: Yes. Well, it’s, no I don’t know about fondness. Yeah. I mean let’s be, let’s be honest it was a pretty scary time. Although as an individual I never felt that I was, I was going to get killed. I always thought that I was going to survive and I think this may have been due to the fact that when one is young, I was twenty or so you never think anything is going to happen to you. Well, obviously I was always optimistic. But I must confess that before each trip when we were sitting outside the aircraft waiting to get in and start the engines and they’d always happen for about a half an hour it then suddenly dawned on you what you are doing, you know. And then I do remember getting a bit apprehensive then. But once in the aircraft as the navigator I was busy from, you know the first, from the first minute as it were until the end of the trip. And that meant that one I was occupied and didn’t have time to think about you know being attacked. And it now, you know it’s occurred to me since that the other members of the crew sitting there staring out into the darkness they must have been petrified I should think most of the time but they obviously never mentioned it. Yes. I mean, I think probably a navigator in Bomber Command probably had the best job really because he was occupied as I say all the time and mark you one thing I missed was, was looking out of the aircraft and seeing what was happening all around us. Although, I did go up and I’d see. I used to get permission from the pilot to go up and stand by him when we were going in to the bombing run watching things happen and I think I wasn’t frightened at all. I was absolutely fascinated with what was going on, you know. And then of course you could see other aircraft all around you all being lit up and so on. So, yes it was something that one would never see again. Oh yes. I recall we did one trip early on in our tour. I think it was our second or third operation to Milan and that was quite an interesting trip because first of all it took almost nine and a half hours which was a hell of a long time. Secondly, the route took us over the Alps and we were flying on a bright moonlight night and it lit up the Alps dramatically and we were about I suppose the Alps go up to about fourteen or fifteen thousand feet and we were at sixteen so there wasn’t much between us you know because sixteen was about the maximum height, I think for a Halifax. Perhaps seventeen after a bit of a struggle. Anyway, we had a dramatic view. Fantastic view of the Alps both going and coming and then after we crossed the Alps we could see Milan in the distance because Milan is quite near the Alps, lit up and we could see searchlights waving. And then the nearer we got the searchlights stopped and when we got there we could also see anti-aircraft bursts in the sky and when we got there they completely stopped. So there were no searchlights and no anti-aircraft fire when we got there and I gather this was quite common that the Italians manning these things on the ground decided they’d leave, you know if we were there [laughs] Which was nice for us. So that was quite, I think we were meant to bomb some factories near, near the main railway station in Milan. And I gather according to the Bomber Command Diaries, you know that big fat book that the raid was very successful and we hit the factories. But that was quite an interesting trip. But on one I think on that same trip [pause] it was the same trip the pilot of a Stirling aircraft won the VC that night and it came, I’ve got a story upstairs about him. His name was Aaron, I think it was Aaron Smith. I’m not sure. But on the way, on the way down just before they got to Milan they were fired at by another Stirling aircraft and to this day nobody knows quite why the other Stirling aircraft did this because nobody owned up to it but it was presumed that the other Stirling aircraft just missed, he identified the other, you know the Stirling wrongly and took it to be an enemy aircraft. Anyway, he fired at this guy’s aircraft and he got badly badly injured and could no longer fly the aircraft. So the crew took him back and laid him down in the back of the aircraft and I think it was the [pause] I can’t remember whether it was either the flight engineer or the navigator took — no. It was the flight engineer. That’s right. He took over flying the aircraft because he had some instruction and they decided to abandon the bombing. So they released the bombs and they fell somewhere else. And then they decided that it would be dangerous to try and go back over the Alps to the UK and they decided to head for Sicily which was about I don’t know, I suppose and hundred and fifty miles south of where they thought they were. And then, oh yes the other thing was that the damage included putting out the radio. So they had no communication with the ground so they couldn’t find out where to land in Sicily. But eventually the wireless operator he managed to get some communication going with an aerodrome called Bone in North Africa. In Libya. And it was the only Allied air base in Libya at the time. Anyway, I don’t know how the wireless operator did it but he managed to speak to Bone and Bone said, ‘You must abandon the idea of trying to land in Sicily because there’s an invasion taking place and there’s a lot of fighting and we can’t advise you where to land.’ He said, they said, ‘You must try and head for Bone,’ and so they altered course and did that and eventually got there and this guy Aaron somebody, the pilot, he decided to get back in to the pilot’s seat to fly the aircraft and eventually he landed this aircraft despite the fact he was badly injured and he died nine hours later. And he got a VC for that. So that was quite an unfortunate dramatic ending for him. For the crew.
DM: Did you ever visit subsequently any of the cities that you bombed?
JD: Did I ever —?
DM: Visit any of the cities that you bombed?
JD: Only Berlin. Yeah. I went to Berlin about five years or six years ago and of course the area which was bombed of course have you been to Berlin?
DM: No.
JD: No. The area that was bombed has been rebuilt but it’s instead of, it’s been rebuilt with mainly glass buildings. Very modern. So you get no, you get no sense of an area that was completely obliterated and it’s a, you know an interesting city but I think that they built they rebuilt most of it in glass or so. A mistake really because in other parts of Europe where cities have been rebuilt they’ve rebuilt particularly in France they’ve rebuilt them in the style they were originally. An example of that was Caen where Caen was effectively demolished by Montgomery in order to get his troops on the move as it were. At great cost to civilians living there. But after the war they rebuilt Caen as it was and to go there you’d never think a bomb had been dropped anywhere near. But that didn’t happen in Berlin unfortunately. There we are. Yeah. I can’t remember. No. I’ve not been to, oh yes I’ve been to Milan. Ah yes. Of course, I’ve been to Milan. Great place Milan. And we actually went to the, yes we flew to Milan. We were going to go to a place called Genoa in Italy. Or Genoa. I don’t know how you pronounce it. Genoa. And we flew to Milan and got on a train at Milan. So we actually went to Milan Station but there was obviously no evidence of the bombing so, but I’m impressed with Italian railways. Very cheap and very fast. Unlike the UK of course. So yes but I mean no in terms of visiting immediately after the war and this took place from Elvington we were instructed to do what were they called?
DM: Oh, are these the Cook’s Tours?
JD: Sorry.
DM: Cook’s Tours.
JD: That’s it.
DM: Yes.
JD: And we did two of these. We took, we took a number of people. I didn’t know who they were, I presumed they were VIPs of some kind over, we flew over the Ruhr and we flew over Essen and Mannheim and one or two other places very low. About we couldn’t have been more than about two or three hundred feet perhaps. No. A thousand. I don’t know. I can’t remember. But low enough to see the damage very effectively. So we did that and yeah, I think we were all taken aback by the immense amount of the damage which we’d caused and subsequently I didn’t realise then but in later years I realised that Bomber Command it did what it had to do and it was probably very necessary that we did what we had to do but what we had to do was quite barbaric. But I think that, I think we, I don’t think there was ever a question of whether we should have done it. I think we should have done it. What should have happened was for war to be avoided, I think. I’ve become very anti-war. I think a lot of people who took part in the war have. But yeah, I mean, I think I mean in London of course people suffered to a certain extent.
DM: Yeah. When you said that you grew up in Edmonton and Middlesex.
JD: Sorry?
DM: You said you grew up in sort of Edmonton and Middlesex.
JD: Yeah. I was out of London when the bombing took place but —
DM: Were your family still there or —
JD: No. No. None of my family live there now. No.
DM: Were they there during the war though?
JD: Oh, indeed. Sure. Yeah.
DM: So they all came through the bombing of London.
JD: They survived you know.
DM: Yeah.
JD: Because they weren’t in, they weren’t in central London. They were out in the suburbs. Wood Green which is a suburb and I don’t think, I don’t think any bombs were dropped there at all. No. It’s [pause] yes the I suppose you know since the war there’s been an enormous amount of literature hasn’t there and books written about Bomber Command. And I think that [pause] Well, I think that what we did played an enormous part in, in the defeat of Nazi Germany. I mean had that Bomber Command not done what it did then presumably all the German troops that were used for anti-aircraft purposes and I gather it totalled something like two million presumably those troops could have been released to fight elsewhere. Presumably against, on the Eastern Front against Russian and that might have made all the difference really. I don’t know. So, although I think what we did was, was not very nice I think it was completely and utterly necessary to get rid of this terrible scourge in Europe. And at the time of course when I was on the squadron I hadn’t really read very much about what was going on Germany. I don’t think many people had at that, at that stage because there wasn’t much news coming out of Germany in the nineteen, the late 1930s and early 40s. And as a young man I wasn’t as interested then as I am now in what happened in the past. So we were largely unaware of what was happening in Europe. But I remember having a feeling, you know then on the squadron that what we were doing was necessary. That we had to defeat these so and sos in Germany without really knowing about them. About all the horrors that were going on. But with that I don’t know we never spoke. Something we never discussed. I never remember discussing this with any of my colleagues. I think we were too busy thinking about other things like, you know going out to the pub or whatever or something like that you know.
DM: Yes.
JD: Very good.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Eric Hatherly Dean
Creator
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David Meanwell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ADeanJEH170913, PDeanJEH1701
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Pending review
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01:03:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
North Africa
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Mannheim
England--Yorkshire
Italy--Milan
Saskatchewan--Swift Current
Saskatchewan
Description
An account of the resource
John Dean’s childhood memory of watching a Spitfire and a German aircraft having a dogfight in the sky above him spurred him to want to become a Spitfire pilot. He didn’t achieve his aim of becoming a Spitfire pilot and instead became a navigator. On one operation the Flight Engineer noticed the Lancaster immediately above them and then saw the bomb fall from it and in to their own aircraft from where the crew argued what to do with it. On his first operation he realised to his horror that he had turned the aircraft too early and they were far off target but they managed to rectify their mistake and complete the operation.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1940-08-15
1944-12
1945-01
1652 HCU
51 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
Fw 190
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
navigator
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Stradishall
Spitfire
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/806/10787/ADowardLA171026.2.mp3
158fdd349ac6ae339dce19c3e81889de
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Doward, Len
Len Alfred Doward
L A Doward
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Len Doward (1920 - 2022, 182242 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 625 and 550 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Doward, LA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is Len Doward. The interview is taking home, at Mr Doward’s home at South Nutfield in Surrey on the 26th of October 2017. Ok. Well, Len if you could perhaps say a little bit about where and when you were born and how you came to end up in the forces.
LD: Yes. I was born in London, along Westminster Bridge Road. Not far from Westminster Bridge. And we went from there when I was quite young to Sutton, off Sutton Common Road, Woodstock Rise. And from there I went, in 1938 when Chamberlain came back waving a piece of paper saying. ‘Peace in our time.’ It was just before he returned from Munich. I went over and I joined the Territorial Army in the Drill Hall that was on Stonecot Hill in Sutton. And that was the 31st, it was the 325 Company Royal Engineers, the 31st Battalion, Royal Engineers and the CO was Colonel Jones who was the PPS of the Prime Minister at that time. So, Jonesie was our boss. And we were mobilised on the, I think the 15th of August 1939. So, we went from there. We had to go to the Drill Hall. And then we were taken in buses down to what they called our Battle Stations which were outside Horsham, Broadbridge Heath. And when we got there, there was some squaddies already there in the course of erecting big tents. They were like marquees. And we were, the different companies that were there, they were given a number of marquees. And also the squaddies, they were handed linen covers and then we were told to go over to a corner of the field where there was a great stack of bales of hay and we had to fill these linen baskets with the hay. That was our bed and that was what we slept on. And then we were there [pause] I’m forgetting ‘til when [pause] Oh, I volunteered for the RAF, flying duties because we had a notice in Company Orders that came around that the Air Force, they were seeking volunteers for aircrew duties, so I put my name down. And I had a cousin at that time. He was in the Royal Engineers and he was a member of the bomb disposal squad. And he was older than me, but I’d applied for Johnny, that was my cousin to claim me. That I could go and join him in the bomb disposal squadron which was still the Royal Engineers. But anyway, as luck would have it the transfer came through into the Air Force. But before I got the ok I had to go up to what was known as arcy tarcy which was ACRC. Air Crew Reception Centre. Known fondly as arcy tarcy which was in a large block of flats. St Johns Wood. And we had to go, for our meals we had to go in our different flights over to London Zoo, in the London Zoo Restaurant for our meals. That was breakfast, lunch and tea. So that is what we had to do and you had to march over there and you would go as a flight. Also to go over there to have your jabs and so on, and medicals. Well, it just so happened that a number of us had transferred from the Army but we also had in the flight, we also had complete newcomers in to the services. They were as green as grass and — alright?
Other: Withheld.
LD: Ok. And what happened was that these youngsters who never experienced any form of service life they were that green as grass that when we were due to go and have our jabs, inoculations and some brought up to date well coming from the army most people had had all their jabs. We had a notification in our pay books. So, all we had to do was just flash our pay books and it was showing there the jabs that we’d had. Well, the youngsters straight out of Civvy Street [pause] the people who transferred and we were rotten devils at that time. We would tip each other the wink and we would say how terrible it was with these jabs, and it was surprising the number of people that died from them. They would have the jab and they would collapse and that was it [laughs] And there was one fellow, ginger haired character and he looked as green as grass and he was. And we were discussing this with another fellow from the army and we said. ‘Yeah. No, that was terrible to think that you’re having your jobs that are going to keep you alive and instead of that it killed you.’ And this poor ginger haired fellow he just collapsed [laughs] Yeah, but it was all good experience. I went from there, from arcy tarcy up to Scarborough, and Scarborough, that was [pause] I’ve got a photograph. The CO there was a Squadron Leader [Ailing?] in the middle. And this, he was the training wing warrant officer. He was a clever devil. He was a regular air force man and he was a warrant officer first class. And I’ve forgotten, I’ve got the blighter’s name down here somewhere. We got all their names and Nodder Locke, he was, we called him Nodder because he had this problem with his collar and he would do this from time to time. So, he was called Nodder. So, Nodder, he was Surrey County Cricket Club groundsman. and where is he now? Oh, here we are. Thorn. That was his name. Thorn. He was a London police constable and he was awarded a George Medal for rescuing a number of people from a bomb demolished building. And he got his GM. That’s Thorn. And also, I’ve got there’s some other blighter on here as well. Quite a well-known character. I’m old, I forget. But that was our CO. Squadron Leader [Elwin?] And that’s the warrant officer. And what was his name now? I’ve forgotten his blooming name. [pause] Anyway, he was a regular Air Force man and he was a clever devil. He was claiming four marriage allowances. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. But they eventually caught up with him. Long after I’d left there. And he was demoted down to an AC plonk and he was put in the slammer. I don’t know for how long but he served time in the Clink and he came out, down to an AC plonk because he was a regular serving fellow. So, that was that. And got quite a number of people on here who one way and another they became quite well known. And one of them. Scottie Cochrane. His name was Alex really but we called him Scottie and Scottie, he was the company secretary of the brewers Ind Coope and Allsopp, yes. So he had a fair wack of booze frequently delivered. Yeah. So, we were alright there. And it’s rather strange because I, I got an email. I was checking my emails this morning and there was one that had been put out by a great friend of mine. We were on the same squadron and his name is Jack Ball. Well, Jack Ball he’s got it on the internet, email. He’s got down a history of the experience from being green as grass until you got up and found yourself as a skipper on an aircraft. And he’d got it set out absolutely superbly, and he’s got in the language that the man in the street could understand. But very good. That was Jack Ball. But one way and another all these characters —
DM: So, that was, was that September 1941?
LD: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. That was Scarborough.
LD: September ‘41. Yeah. And that was the initial, 11 Initial Training Wing up in Scarborough. That hasn’t got Scarborough on there but that’s where it was.
DM: Yeah.
LD: And these are the signature of the people up in there. So that’s that.
DM: Put that over here so it’s safe.
LD: Ok. Thanks.
DM: So, where did you go from Scarborough? Where was the next training?
LD: Where did I go from Scarborough? I went from Scarborough to Hixon. Hixon. That was an Elementary Flying School. But at Scarborough you had to do all the ground lectures and you had to pass the exams following the lectures on the different subjects. You would have navigation, meteorology, a number of other subjects. Oh, Morse code. And they had semaphore to a degree but they didn’t go up into that very much because the instructors didn’t know what they were teaching [laughs] So, that was it. But that was Scarborough. Then from there went to Hixon. Oh, here we are. Arcy tarcy, Scarborough. Oh no. I went to Brough. Not Hixon. I went to Brough. That was elementary flying. And from Brough I went to Heaton Park in Manchester which was kicking off point before we were shipped out to Canada for flying training. Then I went from, went out to Canada. To Moncton. Then from there I went to elementary flying in a [unclear] Then I went to service flying in Swift Current but I didn’t like Swift Current because they were on multi-engine. Twin engine. It was a Service Flying School but the aircraft they had there, they were Airspeed Oxfords. Twin-engined. But I wanted to go on to fighters so I got a transfer from there into Swift Current which was a Service Flying Training School for singles. And I went from there to Calgary. Calgary back to Moncton on the way home. Then HM troop ship Andes. But it’s all down there, yeah.
DM: What did you think of Canada?
LD: Sorry?
DM: What did you think of Canada? Did you —
LD: Canada?
DM: Yeah.
LD: It was very good. The people there they were very very kind. They really were. And they couldn’t do enough for you. And we came, because we packed up training on the Friday evening but from the Friday evening you would be invited to spend a weekend. Different families. Canadian families. And they would come and collect you, take you to their homes and deliver you back on Sunday evening. And they were very very nice. Very very kind. They really were kind people. And that was that. Then I went from there, Swift Current up to Calgary. Yeah. Then I went up to, got back England. Up to Harrogate. And then from there to give us something to do they sent us up to Whitley Bay on what they called an RAF Regiment Course. So, although you were in the Air Force to fly they sent you up there to understand what the RAF Regiment did on the ground. And you had to take part in some of their manoeuvres. So, that was that. And it was that cold up in Whitley Bay that you received — you had, it was a coke stove in the middle of what you would term a sitting room or a lounge. And it would be in the middle of the room with a stack going up through the roof. And you were given a ration of coke but wintertime you soon got through that. So, what we did, because it had a garden at the back of the house where we were billeted it had a wooden fence. So we started burning the fence [laughs] And we worked our way along one side. And as luck would have it before anyone came around to check out we were shipped out. So [laughs] So, that was an experience that was. But that was up in, that was in up in Harrogate, I think.
DM: When you were going —
LD: That was at Whitley Bay.
DM: Whitley Bay, yeah. When you were going to Canada and came back from Canada were you seasick? Did you have a good passage, or —
LD: No. We were on the ship. HMS Andes. And where was I? I can’t remember. I went out to Canada on the troop ship Letitia. And I came back from Canada on the troopship, the Andes. And these two ships, they were both cruise liners in peacetime. And conditions weren’t the same on those because they’d converted them in to troop ships. And under the decks where they’d had cabins and so on for paying passengers they’d all been ripped out and you had a clear deck space for the whole of the deck. And you were allocated a hammock. And the hammocks they were so close together that they couldn’t even move with the movement of the ship. They were solid and as the ship moved you all went with the ship like this. Yeah. So that was, and that was going out on the Letitia and coming back on the Andes. And from there I went up to Harrogate which was called Number 7 Pilot’s Recruiting Centre. And from there I went on the RAF Regiment course at Whitley Bay. That lasted what? Five weeks. Then I went to the, what they called GR School which although you were a pilot, qualified pilot you had to go on the GR course which was Ground Recognition course. You had to go on that to learn the duties of the other crew members, and you also had to become conversant there with your Morse code. So, do you know Morse code?
DM: Not really, no.
LD: Oh.
DM: Only three dots and three dashes.
LD: [laughs] Well [pause] if someone says to you nine dits and a da you know they’re being rude.
DM: Fair enough.
LD: Because nine dits, it goes, it starts off with nine dits in Morse code is a dit a dit three dits.
DM: Right.
LD: Now, I’ll tell you the second letter and you can judge for yourself the last two. So, the first one is S. Dit de dit. The second one is four dit dit dit dit which is H. Now I’ll leave your imagination to the other two [laughs]
DM: I think I’ve got it, think I’ve got it. So, by this time from what you say you knew you weren’t going to be a fighter pilot, did you?
LD: Yes. And I trained on what they called Harvards, they were. They were used as fighters but then they became defunct as operational and they put them in to what they called Service School. That was Fighter Training School. And I was training on fighters. On the Harvard. Now, on the Harvard, oh that’s, I don’t know whether that bloke’s on that list. He could be somewhere. [pause] Oh, he’s probably on there somewhere. But he’s a tall guy and what happened was that the Harvard was a twin seater training aircraft although it had been used in fighter service but they put it down to training. What they called, not elementary but service flying, and the Harvard it was quite a good aircraft. You could do all kinds of things in it but when you were training you went to Service School. You thought that you were the king’s pin. You were mustered. And although you would be booked out for certain things [pause] I wonder if I’ve got it in here.
[pause]
LD: Ah. Here we are. The [unclear] Tiger. Tiger. Tiger. Tiger. Harvards. Here we are. That was at Swift Current. And you had to go and understand before they turned you loose. You had to understand and you had to certify that you were fully aware and understood the different aspects relating to the aircraft you were flying. So, although you signed this it was a means whereby if you ballsed up any of these actions you would be held responsible. And particularly if you killed yourself [laughs] They would say it was his own fault. So you wouldn’t, or your survivors wouldn’t get a pension. So, that was that. But I’ve got it down here. Yeah, here it is. Harvards. Started here [pause] And also you had to do link training. And I think the link training is at the back of the book.
DM: So, link training if I’m right was a bit like a flight simulator. An early form of flight simulator.
LD: Yeah. I’m babbling on.
DM: No. You carry on. That’s fine. But that’s what a link trainer was. It wasn’t, you weren’t in an actual plane, you were on the ground.
LD: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
LD: So, these are the different things that — there you are, link trainer as well. You had to be proficient in the link trainer and you were certified by the link trainer instructor as to whether you were competent in his various exercises. And see, I’ve got it down here. Link, link trainer. And you had to do different things such as if you were flying an aircraft but you would be completely enclosed and you would have to do it on instruments. And through the earphones they would tell you to fly a certain course and you had, it was just the same as in a cockpit. You had to fly a certain course. They would tell you, ‘Right. You’ve reached a certain point. Now, you’ve got to find your way back and land at your home base.’ And this is where it comes out and you had to do different things which was timing on the beam. You had to time yourself on the beam and if you did that when you had to turn, turn off the beam on to certain heading, fighter heading. Then do a specific turn at a given rate. You could do rate ones up to four, four or six turns. Well, rate one was a nice gentle turn. Four or six would be as if you were bloody Top Gun [laughs] And that’s it. And this is what you had to do. You would be under the hood and you would be given directions what to do and you had to do this. And then we’ve got here you had to do homing, timing. Then they would give you an unknown course to fly. You didn’t know. And you had to go so far and then you had to judge from the sounds you were getting through as to what you would do next. And it was quite interesting that because you then had to find out how you were going to get back. Although you weren’t in the air to get back to base but you still had to go through the motions. And I’ve got it here, you see. Then you had to form what was known as figures of eight and you had to allow as if you were up in the air for drift and so on. And that was all down here. So, that was that. That was the link. And then I’ve got the list of my crew here. [laughs] I’ve got the list of when they passed on.
DM: Really?
LD: Yeah, Flash, we called him Flash Gall because he was the navigator and he would masticate his food a minimum of sixty chomps. And he would chomp. And you would sit down there with a pre-flight meal before we went off on ops and we called him Flash as a result. And Flash would sit there and you’d say. ‘Bloody hell, hurry up.’ And you would be the last on the crew bus to get out. Yeah. That was Flash. And he snuffed it on the 9th of December ’44. And Doug Jackman, the narrow gutted fellow. He — which one was he? [pause] Oh, here we are [pause] That was my, that’s my wireless operator, that was his job in Civvy Street.
DM: Senior investigations engineer.
LD: Yeah.
DM: With the Zinc Corporation.
LD: Yeah.
DM: Southern Power Corporation. That was in Australia. Broken Hill.
LD: Yeah.
DM: New South Wales.
LD: Yeah. He was quite a big noise in that company. And also I’ve got, that’s a Halifax. I’ve flown those. And this is us.
DM: That’s the crew. So, when —
LD: And —
DM: When — can you —
LD: You had to, you had to recognise ships as well. So that if you saw a ship when you were coming back from a trip, North Sea or Channel, whatever, from the recognition you’d either try and bomb them out of the water or just report back what you’d seen. So they would know they were friendly. But that’s the crew. And George Buckman. He was a senior engineer for Esso Petroleum in Southern Australia. And he was responsible for the whole of South Australia for Esso. He was the young one, Stan, seventeen. Roy had his own business. He was an electrician. This narrow gutted so and so [laughs] he, he just couldn’t adhere to being regimented. We were all sensibly shod but not Douglas, no. He had to be different.
DM: Wearing his wellies.
LD: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
LD: In his welligogs.
DM: And you say he used to take all his brass buttons off.
LD: Eh?
DM: You said he took all his brass buttons off.
LD: Yeah.
DM: And put black buttons on. Did he get caught? Did he get put on a charge for that or —
LD: Well, he was, he finished as a headmaster of a school. And his wife Kate, she was a headmistress. So they were both in the teaching profession. But that’s those two and its surprising really.
DM: When — where did you all crew up?
LD: Sorry?
DM: Where did you, where were you when you all crewed up? Where were you?
LD: What, our base?
DM: Yes.
LD: We were based up in [pause] Wireless op — that’s his place. That’s the navigator [pause] And I stayed in the Reserve until ’59. On the last aircraft I flew was [pause] I was given the opportunity, not that I was booked out as the pilot but I was like a second-Joe with a fellow. This was 1954. And he allowed me to fly the Meteor. Yeah. For a short space. That was interesting. And I did an hour at that. Yeah.
DM: So, going back. Going back to you’d finished your training.
LD: Yeah.
DM: You crewed up.
LD: Yeah.
DM: With all your crew that we’ve just been talking about.
LD: Yeah.
DM: Were you in Halifaxes then? Did you go on ops in Halifaxes?
LD: Yes. There we are. Halifax. Flew Halifax at what they called a Conversion Unit. So, we did this [pause] this was in August ’44. We converted to four engines. And I got on very well with my instructor from two to four. He was an Australian and because I had Australians in my crew, two, we got along like a house on fire. He was an Australian. And I had two. So, that was quite good. And his name was Pickles. And that was on the Halifax. That’s when we did a Conversion Unit on to Halifaxes, and before that I flew Wellingtons. And it was then when I went to OTU [pause] Where the hell would that be? Oh, I know. I was at Haverford West, and that was where I received my intro to the Wellingtons. And that was down Haverford West. That’s the west coast of Wales. And we had a runway that we took off over Cardigan Bay. And one of the commanders there, his name was named Donati. Flight Lieutenant Donati. And he’d been in the Middle East on what they called a Met flight. Meteorological flight. He’d been doing flights up to certain heights and recording the weather and so on. Well, Donati, he brought back from the Middle East he brought back with him which was [unclear] a dingo dog. A little dog. And this little dog, he used to go out on the rampage looking for bitches and he would disappear for a couple of days. And in what we called the crew room where you were waiting to be signed out and so on and you took an aeroplane. He had, in the corner he had a cushion where he could come and sleep. And if he’d been out on the rampage for a couple of days he’d come back and he’d sleep for about a day and a half in the corner, this dingo. Yeah. And Donati. He was as bad as the dog. And Donati used to go, used to go in to Cardiff. And I remember one occasion I got a telephone call from Donati. He was in Cardiff and he said, because he was a flight commander and I was just a member of the flight. So, he telephoned, he said, ‘Book yourself out an aircraft,’ he said, ‘And come and pick me up at Cardiff.’ Anyway, I booked myself out. So, I got a navigator and I said, ‘Right. We’re going to Cardiff.’ So, we went to Cardiff. Landed. Went to the crew room there and there was Donati. He looked absolutely, if you don’t mind the term, absolutely shagged out. It was unbelievable. And there was the dog fast asleep as well. So, that was Donati. But he was a nice fellow was Donati. And I went from Haverford West to [pause] I’ve got it all in here. At the back. It’s incredible. And I went from there. I finished, I finished a tour, a Bomber Command tour and because I fell out with my CO, because at one time in Bomber Command when they first started doing what they called daylights they equated three daylight trips because it was just across the Channel and back again. You had to do three daylights to count for one night. Well, because it got so bad with the fighter dominating the coast, the ME 110 and also the ack-ack they quickly changed that to one on one. So, that was, that was when I was down in [pause] oh I’ve forgotten. Somewhere.
[pause]
LD: Whitley Bay. Little Rissington, Rissington, Haverford West, Haverford West. Then did conversion to Wellingtons. Wellington. Then did another conversion to Halifaxes. Then I did another conversion to Lancasters. And then did a conversion to [pause] Oxfords. Twin engine, and it was there, yeah I flew Tiger Moths, Harvards, Anson. I flew Oxfords with a Cheetah engine. Wellingtons. Different class Wellingtons — 3, 10, 12, 13 and 14. Halifax with a Michelin engine, Lancaster. Argus, now, the Argus. That was when I was out. And for my cheek with my CO I fell out with him because I told him that he was chicken and he chose short trips. I said, ‘It’s about time you bloody well did a long night trip instead of these short ones.’ Anyway, he had his own back because when I finished I found myself on the banana boat out to India. He got his own back. But the bugger is still alive and we keep in contact. He lives up Harrogate way. And he lost his wife of a considerable number of years. Bobby his wife’s name. They’d been married, oh thirty odd years but she passed away about four or five years ago and he’s since remarried. But that was — then I did Argus. Went out to, I did a communication squadron out at Alipore, which is the outside of Calcutta. And there had to fly, first of all because they didn’t have pukka aerodromes and airstrips the engineers they would dig out a strip in the jungle and you were give a map reference. So, you had a map and you had [pause] what the hell? A Dalton. A Dalton. It was a Dalton [pause] it was a computer. And from that you could work out from the atlas points you’d been given, you could work out with your computer, you could work out the course you had to fly. But more importantly not necessarily a course but the track that you had to find because the course is what you will fly on the compass but the track is what you had to cover over the ground. So you had to make certain that you were tracking over the ground. Going in the right direction despite the fact you were probably, your nose was an entirely different direction. So you had to do that and you would be given a map reference. And you had to find this by yourself in an Argus because you had no navigator. You were given a map, a compass, and you were given a map reference point and you were told, ‘Right. You’ve got to be there at a certain time,’ because the Army brass of course they were going through, the 14th Army, through the jungle and they were holding conferences as the 14th advanced. And they would pick an atlas point that you had to be there at a certain time so they could conduct this conference before they in turn upped and moved on. So, you had to be there before they moved on. And that was interesting because you in turn would, on occasion you would take senior brass to either conduct a conference or be part and parcel. And that was quite interesting because I flew some interesting people on some of these trips. And one of them was [pause] I forget where. Yeah. I used to go up to [pause] I flew a Brigadier Haynes on one occasion. We had to go up to Sylhet which was at the foot of the Himalayas and take him up there to a conference. And we had a colonel who was going up there at the same time. Mellor. And I had Air Commodore Hardman who eventually became Marshal of the Royal Air Force. Hardman. And I flew him up to Sylhet which again was at the base of the Himalayas. And Brigadier Weston, I took him a couple of times. And a Colonel Dutfield, and that was going up. That was up, going up into Burma. And they were, they were interesting trips because one of the people I took was a Mrs Metcalfe, and I had to take her up to Alipore which was an airstrip outside Calcutta. I had to take her there. And Mrs Metcalfe, she was the senior nursing officer out in India. Australian lady. And she was that down to earth she was unimaginable really. She really was, talk about a spade a spade. But I had some very interesting people. I met quite a lot of them. Plus the fact that in Calcutta you had what was known as the Grand Hotel where you could go there. And if you were taking someone, if they were going to a conference and it would last more than twenty four hours you would book into the Grand Hotel. And you would have to meet the expenses but what you did you claimed your expenses when you got back. And that was a very very swish hotel the Grand. It really was swish. Where they had these very tall Sikh soldiers all dressed in white. Bandoliers and so on. They were the guards with the Sikh plumes. They were the guards at the entrances and so on and they had one on each landing. And they also had a lady guarding each landing. A member of the Indian Army guarding each landing with a table and she had a register of who they should allow on the landings. And you had to be in that book or you weren’t allowed on the landing. But that was all very interesting. Plus the fact that they had what was known as a Senior Officer’s Club there and you had to be squadron leader and above. That meant that you’d attained your majority in the army. Anyway, I was a flight lieutenant so I hadn’t attained my majority — squadron leader. But I was very fortunate because I was invited as a guest to enjoy the facilities of the Officer Club and it was a beautiful. You wouldn’t have thought there was a war on. Absolutely spotless. You could go like that. Not a speck of dust. Absolutely fantastic. And all the servants they were all dressed in their pukka garb with their white long breeches, their hats. They were absolutely immaculate really. And that was an experience in itself. But needless to say I went on one occasion, Bob Hart, he was a Northern Rhodesian fellow and he’d done a tour of operations over here as I had done and he in turn, we were very much alike. Very [pause] we seemed, we didn’t think twice about what we said. Yeah. And Bob, he was the same. Bob, he was the senior engineering officer, Northern Rhodesian mines. He was a very very tall guy. About six foot four. And they had East African troops out there in Calcutta and on more than one occasion walking along the pavement in Calcutta and they had a battalion of black East African soldiers out there. They were all black. And if two of them were on the same pavement as you and they were coming towards you he would yell out in their tongue, ‘Get off the bloody pavement in the gutter.’ And they would all jump on the side and get in the gutter. Yeah. But that was, and his name was Robert Kitson Hart. RK Hart. Yeah. He was a character he was. And I remember one occasion we’d been out. We’d been out drinking to a club and we were going back to our digs at the Grand and they had what they called garreys. In other words it was like a Hansom cab. Some had two horses. Some had four. Anyway, we rented, hired a garrey, a Hansom cab and Robert Kitson, he said to the garrey wallah, the driver, ‘Grand hotel.’ Well, dependent upon the time you were in the garrey so you paid accordingly for the time you hired it. Well, this garrey wallah, he was going so slow it was surprising that the horse didn’t fall over. Anyway, Robert Kitson said to him, [unclear] which means hurry up. Anyway, he got the horse getting to not exactly a gallop but a reasonable trot. That wasn’t good enough for Robert Kitson. So, Rob was sitting with me in the back. He got up and he got hold of the garrey wallah, threw him off. Climbed up into the seat and he shouted out to the garrey. ‘Run you bastard. Run.’ He whipped the garrey, the horse into quite a bit of a gallop and he was shouting out to the garrey wallah, ‘Run. Run you bastard, run.’ And he took us to the Grand. Drove all the way to the Grand. And when we got there and he said to the garrey wallah, ‘I drove. You get no tip. I drove. I did the driving.’ So, yeah. Yeah. Six foot four. Robert Kitson. I’ve been so lucky in life. I’ve really been so lucky. Talk about lucky.
DM: So, you decided to stay in the Air Force after the war.
LD: Sorry?
DM: Did you stay in after the war? You didn’t come out and go back in. You stayed in the Air Force.
LD: No. I stayed on for what they called VR training. And I went to various aerodromes. Pukka aerodrome squadrons on. I went to a number. I’ve got them in the book. And I did my fifteen days annual training with them in different types of aircraft. But in my last, last year, I think in my sixth or seventh year VR training I opted to do that over there in Redhill because in Redhill they had a Wing Commander Scott. He was the head of the Training Unit there. Now, Wing Commander Scott only got the job because he married into the family. His wife, their family, they owned the aerodrome. So, he got the job running the aerodrome. Well, anyway Scott, he employed what they called civilian instructors. They hadn’t been in the Air Force but all they’d done, they’d just, they had instructed in civilian life. Well, there were two that he had civilian instructors and what they did they would take you up and they would give you different exercises to do. Come down and sign you out and so on and that was it. But when the weather was what we called clamped, in other words you couldn’t fly what they would do they would get you to do, Scott would get you to do different ground exercises. One of them happened to be swinging the compass. Well, with swinging a compass what you had to do you had to get what they called a DR, Dead Reckoning compass. You had to get a dead reckoning reading so that you got due north. And then you went through the various compass points to ensure that the compasses, they had little lead rods through them and you would adjust the rod to get the thing reading correctly. Anyway, it was what they called clampers. So, Scott said, ‘Right. You’ll have to swing compasses.’ Anyway, he said, ‘Right. Two aircraft out there.’ So there was a pal of mine, he was on the VR but he lived on the same road as me. John [unclear] Well, John he had some highfalutin job in the city. I forget what it was now. But John and I, we used to travel up together and we were given the two aircraft to swing. Anyway, Scott said, ‘Right. The two aircraft. One each. Swing the compass.’ Well, he outranked me. He was a wing commander so I had to do as he said. As I was told. Anyway, I got out there and there were two civilians and they said, ‘Right. You swing that compass,’ and they said to John, ‘You swing that compass in the other aeroplane.’ Yes, please. I don’t know if you want to use the room at all.
DM: No.
LD: Alright.
[recording paused]
DM: Right. So swinging the compass.
LD: I went out there and there were two civilians there, ‘Right. You swing that aircraft. You swing that.’ So, I said, ‘Hold on.’ So, I went back to Scott who was in the flight office. I said, ‘Tell me, sir,’ because he was my superior, ‘Tell me, sir. Is it right that a commissioned officer in the RAF VR, is he supposed to take orders from a civilian?’ ‘Good lord, no. Of course not.’ I said, ‘Well then, tell those two to swing the aircraft themselves.’ [laughs] So, that was it. Got away with it. Yeah. But they tried it. But having said all of that I’ve been so fortunate in life. I’ve really been so fortunate.
DM: What job did you do in Civvy Street?
LD: Banking. Yeah. And again, I was very very fortunate. I got a job. I got a job in 431 Oxford Street. It was when I first became aware of girls. Because in 431 Oxford Street I was there as the junior. Well, the junior, you were the dogsbody. You ran all the errands. And you took what they called returns. In other words cheques that came back to your customer unpaid. What we called bounced cheques. You had to deliver them back to the customer and you got their signature for the return, indicated that it had been returned and in turn their account was debited because of the return. Well, I went there to 431 Oxford Street. And as luck would have it at that time Mr Gordon Selfridge who used to call, what they used to call it walking the floor and he would walk every floor in Selfridges every morning starting at 9 o’clock spot on. And he would walk around with two after him and he would make various comments. And the earthlings, they had to make a note of what he was on about. But it was that time that he used to get the lift girls and they had lifts and they had a lever in the side of the cabin that they would pull for up or down. And these girls, they had skirts just above the knees which was quite something in those days. Quite above the knees. And they were all exquisitely turned out because they had to go through the beauty parlour before they were allowed anywhere near a lift. So, they had to get in early, beauty parlour, all the make-up and so on. Everything neat and clean. Tidy. Wear kid gloves before they were allowed near a lift. And then they would all stand at the entrance to the lifts and Mr Gordon, he would go around looking at each one, particularly at their knees. ‘Ok.’ ‘Yes, ok,’ and he would go around with his retinue looking at all the lifts before they got in and operated the lifts. So, it was there that I really became aware of girls. And I really appreciated the manner in which Mr Gordon hired the girls. That was an experience in itself. And over there, being a junior at 431 I would take the returns. In other words, the return cheques that had bounced. I would take them back to what Selfridges had, it was called an accounting office, it was like a cashier’s office. And in there the head cashier he was a very staid gentleman. Always wore grey single breasted suits with a waistcoat and with a halberd across here with the bar on there, strapped across his waist. And he always had the pocket watch in his pocket. And you’d go up there and before you handed them over he would always look at his watch, which was a gold Hunter and he would put it back in his pocket again. And he would make a note as to the time you turned up with them in case you skived off somewhere. But he was a very meticulous gentleman and he always wore stiff white bow collars with a bow tie. Always. And he was absolutely immaculate. Shoes as well. And he was a tall guy, very tall. But I learned a lot from going over there at 431. I really did. And from there at 431 it was a ritual. We used to close at, I think it was half past twelve on a Saturday. Half past twelve everything would be what we called bagged up. Go downstairs in to the strong room. All the money would be on the trolley to go to the strong room and and then you had to take all the ledgers down which would be on a separate trolley. Well, being the dogsbody junior that was your problem. You had to get all the ledgers down in the book room. Then after that you would lock up and you would have to hand the keys to the book room to the chief clerk whose name was Goodrich. Same as the tyres. I’ve never forgotten it. And his name was Henry, and he lived at Haywards Heath and he used to travel up each day. But Henry, he was a nice fellow and I remember that 15th of August 1939, he called me up to his desk which was, he had a raised bench type desk on a platform so he could overlook the whole of the office including the cashiers. And he called me up there and I thought, ‘Oh hell, what’s wrong?’ Anyway, I got there and he said, he was very nice, he said, ‘I’m very sorry to tell you but you’ve been mobilised and you’ve got to report to your Drill Hall as soon as you can. So, you can leave now, get home, explain to your parents what you have got to do and get to the Drill Hall as soon as you can.’ I went home. My dad was home. And I’ve never put all my webbing together then. Being what they called, I was a sapper then in the REs and I never put my webbing together. And I said to my dad, ‘I’ve got to put my webbing together because I’ve got to go and report,’ I said, ‘Could you help me?’ He said, ‘No, it’s no good me giving you a hand,’ he said, ‘The only way to learn is to do it yourself.’ So, that was how I learned how to put the webbing together. Over to the Drill Hall and I had to go upstairs. Cliff Ford was up on the balcony with his red sash on. So, he said, oh he said, ‘You’d better go in to the office.’ He was a lieutenant. And he was a member of a stockbroking firm.
Other: There we are. There we are. One for you. One for you.
LD: Thank you dear. I think his name was, I think it was Hammond.
Other: Do you think, I mean is he alright? Because he seems to be going on, not so much about —
LD: I’m dribbling on. I was quite keen on swimming then. I used to go with my friend Ken Shepherd up to the swimming pool up at North Cheam, and I heard that someone told me there was a swimming pool at the Drill Hall. So, I said to Cliff Ford at the Drill Hall [pause] I asked him, ‘Is it true you’ve got a swimming pool here? If so I wouldn’t mind signing on so I could use the pool.’ Which meant that I could save, I think it was sixpence to go in the pool up at North Cheam.
DM: Right.
LD: So, he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You’d be surprised what we’ve got here. Go and have a word with the officer and he’ll explain to you what we’ve got.’ Anyway, I went upstairs. Went in. Saw the officer. And I said, ‘I understand you’ve got a lot of sport facilities here including a swimming pool.’ He didn’t say, ‘No we haven’t.’ He said, ‘Oh, you’d be surprised at what sports facilities we’ve got here.’ He said, ‘I’m sure you’ll enjoy it if you would like to come along and join us.’ So, I said, ‘Well, that sounds interesting.’ He said, ‘Well, that’s right, ‘he said, ‘If you’re interested would you like to sign along here?’ [laughs] Sheep to the slaughter. Signed. So, he said, ‘Right. That’s it. And he called, they didn’t call them sergeants in those days they were sarnts, ‘Sarnt major’
DM: Another lamb to the slaughter.
LD: In came Cliff Ford. ‘Right,’ he said, ‘Take the sacrificial, he signed on.’ So, that was it. That’s how I came to sign, to volunteer. Yeah.
DM: When you —
LD: Yeah.
DM: On ops in Bomber Command.
LD: Yeah.
DM: Did you have any hairy moments?
LD: What, in bombers?
DM: Yeah.
LD: Yeah. A number. We were, we were attacked on a number of occasions but I think I put it down on the first but it got so that you were used to seeing things. You didn’t bother. And the navigator would it put it the nav, in his nav log. Attacked or whatever. We had a number of near misses. There was one poor blighter, he was flying alongside us and there we went out in what they called a gaggle. And a gaggle meant that you flew out, not in any type of formation but you flew out as a mob. And what happened was that — have you got someone picking you up?
[recording paused]
DM: In a moment. You were saying the navigator, the navigator would make a note in his log that you’d been attacked and that it happened quite a lot.
LD: Right. Where was I?
DM: You were talking about when you were, when you were attacked. By fighters, I assume. From time to time.
LD: Oh yes. JU88.
DM: You said something about when you all went out in a gaggle.
LD: A JU88. And then we were going out in a gaggle on one trip and the fellow alongside me because we were scattered all over different altitudes one fellow above him released a bomb, went through his wing and that was it. Yeah. So, although you thought that the dangerous aspect of it all was on the bombing run it could be quite a bit hairy if you had some idiot above you. But I’ve been very, very lucky. I worked my way. I told you I was shipped out for not keeping my tongue between my teeth.
DM: Yes.
LD: Shipped out to Calcutta. And from there because I wanted to know what was going on what they called the TO, Transport Officer who was stationed in the Grand I bothered him to know where I was going. ‘Where the hell am I going? What am I doing here?’ Well, that’s another story but to cut that short, I finished. I found myself out in Calcutta. From Calcutta I went to [pause] Calcutta. I went to Burma. And Burma, again I was very lucky because this time I was on, I mentioned the communication flight where you took brass and high ranking officers down to conferences. And it was there, and it’s been in the news recently, one place in Burma which they called Myanmar.
DM: Myanmar or something. Yeah.
LD: Which is a place called Cox’s Bazaar. Well, I’ve been there. And Cox’s Bazaar was the first place that I landed in Burma which had been evacuated by the Japanese. And we were following, following the Japanese down that coast and we went into Cox’s Bazaar. And you had to be careful because they were laying booby traps. In addition to which, due to the humidity there, the temperature a lot of the furniture was made of bamboo canes. But because they were fraught with the humidity you could look at a table and chair which would be like that and you would touch it and it would collapse due to humidity. And the, what the hell did they call it? [pause] They turned into [pause] I’ve forgotten the blasted name. But anyway furniture was like that. You would touch it if the Japs had been there and it would collapse. Also, you had to be bloody careful that you didn’t touch something that the Japs had left behind that had been booby trapped. And it was there that we worked our way down. I was still on the communication flight and we got down to Mingaladon which was the landing strip for Rangoon. And it was there that we were called to attend the surrender of the Japanese, the general, Japanese general of that area. We were called by Mountbatten to attend and watch the surrender of the Japanese general to Mountbatten himself on the Mingaladon airstrip. Well, we had to attend there and Mountbatten, well he was an absolute s o d. He really was. And he made the 14th Army members who were attending they’d sweated their guts out through the jungle these squaddies and he made them, they only had one set of khaki, he made them scrub their khaki. And they were issued with white blanco to do their webbing. They were issued by Mountbatten this stuff and they were told that they had to launder their kit. Be absolutely spot on. Khaki green and all their webbing including spats had to be white. And they had to parade absolutely spot on to be in attendance when this Japanese general surrendered. And I was there at the time when the Japanese surrendered his samurai sword to Mountbatten and Mountbatten accepted his surrender. The Japanese general, he bowed out all the way, virtually on knees which was a terrible humiliation for him. And later that day because he was so humiliated he committed hara-kiri. And that was Mountbatten. But the surprising thing is before all this happened my father was a Royal Marine. And during WW1 my dad was on Lord Mountbatten’s staff. But at that time, because he was known as [pause] it’s the German name for Mountbatten anyway. He was known as, he was Chief of the Naval staff, despite being a German because Victoria had German descendants. But he was chief of the Naval staff and he had to resign, and my dad was in his office as Royal Marine. And my dad said that it was the first time that dad had seen a man cry. And he said it was at the time that Earl Mountbatten, as he was then he wrote his resignation letter. Signed it. And he said, dad said, ‘The man was in tears when he handed me the letter.’ And he always addressed dad as John. And dad said, ‘He said to me, ‘John, you know who you’ve got to deliver this to.’ And my dad had to deliver it to what was then, despite Mountbatten resigning as First Lord dad knew who he had to take it to his successor. And dad did that. But he said the first time he’d seen a man cry. So, that was the Mountbattens. But having said all that, dad, being a Marine and being on Mountbatten’s staff, dad was billeted with him as his batman. As a batman living in Mountbatten’s quarters at Number One London. That, that’s the accommodation at Marble Arch and it’s still known as Number One London. And dad was billeted at Number One London [laughs] Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Len Doward
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David Meanwell
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADowardLA171026
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
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01:30:21 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Len Doward was in the army when he saw an advertisement for aircrew so he volunteered. He trained as a pilot. On one operation he saw a Lancaster alongside hit by bombs from a Lancaster above. After his operational tour Len was posted to India and then Burma where he witnessed the Japanese surrender at Mingaladon airfield.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
Canada
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
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1941-09
550 Squadron
625 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bomb struck
bombing
Halifax
Harvard
Lancaster
pilot
training
Wellington