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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/247/7524/YDorricottAArmy2465v.1.pdf
16cef0bde6e585ad0ab8bee9626b6e37
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dorricott, Leonard William
Leonard Dorricott
Len Dorricott
L W Dorricott
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. An oral history interview with Rosemary Dorricott about her husband Flying Officer Leonard William Dorricott DFM (1923-2014, 1230753, 1230708 Royal Air Force). Leonard Dorricott was a navigator with 460 and 576 Squadrons. He flew 34 operations including Operation Manna, Dodge and Exodus. He was one of the crew who flew in Lancaster AR-G -George, now preserved in the Australian War Memorial. He was a keen amateur photographer and the collection contains his photographs, logbook and papers. It also contains A Dorricott’s First World War Diary, and photographs of Leonard Dorricott’s log book being reunited with the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Dorricott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
2015-11-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dorricott, LW
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
3 Deseado
A Dorricott
2 Besford Sq
Belle vue
Shrewsbury
Salop
[underlined] Oct 28th 1914 [/underlined]
Embanked for [one indecipherable word]
29th Oct 1914 at South Hampton, [sic] on a passenger boat named SS Deseado, set sail about 7.30pm
[page break]
On the 30th sea fairly calm but weather stormy. On 31st fine day. We were [deleted] in the bay of Biscay on Sunday 1st Nov. It was very ruff [sic] it tossed us about and cleared all the crocks off the tables when we were having dinner.
We came in view of land on Tuesday
[page break]
between the coasts of North Africa and Portugal also of Spain. The rock at Gibaraltar [sic] were a site [sic] worth seeing we could see them fairly well although it was a bit misty. All round the coast it was very mountainous. We could see the forts very plainely, [sic] and we could see them
[page break]
signaling [sic] from the one side to the other.
The towns in Spain looked very funny the houses were all white.
The rock Giberaltar [sic] stood out in the water more than the other, and it is a very high rock, the fort [sic] are placed at the very edge. There were
[page break]
some very high Mountains on the coasts of North Africa, they were also very picturess. There is about 8 boats with soldiers and horses in with us besides crusers [sic] to guard us.
We passed some of the troops from India going to the front, we passed them at Giberaltar [sic] on Tuesday,
[page break]
about 5pm they were 4 and 5 Borderers.
[deleted] The last sight of land again on Tuesday morning. [/deleted]
It is the finest day we have had since we started, the sea looked splendid. We could see one of the towns [inserted] in North Africa [/inserted] lited [sic] up from the ship, on Wednesday night splendedly [sic] We also passed the 2nd Shropshires going to England on
[page break]
Thursday about 7pm they are going to have 6 days furlow before going to the front.
We passed more troops going to England on Friday Nr Malta about 4pm. We landed at Malta about 4.30.pm on Friday, and ankored [sic] there for the night, about 2 mile out
[page break]
from the shore Malta is a very nice town and is situated close the to the shore. we could see the lights of the town very plainly, and when the surch [sic] lites [sic] came over us it lit the boat up like day.
We had to wait for escorts at Malta because our other
[page break]
left us, to take the troops to England that we met from India.
The building in Malta look to be very well built their [sic] are some very fine churches their [sic] We started from Malta on Saturday morning aboat [sic] 8.30 [inserted] am [/inserted] with a fresh escort of Battle ships and torpeado [sic] boats we also had
[page break]
a submarine with us it was tugged by another boat. It was very ruff [sic] on Sunday again especialy after tea. It was not quite so ruff [sic] as last Sun when we were in the Bay of Bisky [sic] We were inockulated [sic] on Tuesday 10th Nov, we also reached Port Said on Tuesday about
[page break]
9 pm and stayed their [sic] till 5am on Wednesday morning we could see some of the streets, and see some of the Hotels. The natives are a tan colour. They were working all night, they were shouting all the time, makeing [sic] very funny noises There is a very big dock their [sic] with
[page break]
all kinds of boats in it. We saw them loading the vessels with coal, they carry it in wiskets from of [sic] a coal lanch [sic] We came into the Suez canal about 7pm There is a railway running along the side of the canal it run’s [sic] for miles and miles. Most of the native’s [sic] live in tents other’s [sic] live in stone build [sic]
[page break]
sheds, with a [inserted] slightly [/inserted] slooping [sic] roof, there are some very picture’ss [sic] building such, as “Palais. D Administration. Du. Canal” this is a very fine building We saw droves of camels, donkes, [sic] and mules, on the desert we also saw them drawing the [deleted] the [/deleted] sand and, spar from the hillocks The spar resembled [deleted] britez [/deleted] britze very
[page break]
much. They get it from big hillocks close to the canal They fill truck which run on rails for the donkey’s [sic] and mules, to pull, with slime, and the camals [sic] have to take the big lumps on there [sic] backs, in wooden boxes, the boys lead them about, and the men load them up
[page break]
The nataves [sic] run after the ship after pennies which the soldiers threw to them. The canal is about 100 yards wide and about 90 miles long. We passed a ship load of English passengers at “Gare De. Ballah, near the railway station We saw a lot of Royal Engeniers [sic] from [deleted] Lankeshire [/deleted]
[page break]
Lancashire at “Gare. De. Kantara the barricks, [sic] in which they stayed were very good looking building’s, [sic] build [sic] [deleted] of [/deleted] with stones, the roofs [sic] were flat.
We had five of the natives on board selling, tirkish –[sic] delite, [sic] post cards, cigeretts, [sic] and matches. We saw about 7 dredgers at work
[page break]
in the canal.
It is supprising [sic] to see the number of natives that work in the hillocks getting the spar The engins [sic] on the railway are something similar to the Midland railways Company’s engins, [sic] they go about 30 miles per hour.
The trees are very different to ours
[page break]
there is one class of tree that looks [inserted] like [/inserted] our fir, We saw some of the Kirkers’ from India at “Gare. De. Kantara camping in tents. We had to stop again for a fresh escort just out side a town called “Port Suez” or the town of Suez on Wednesday
[page break]
night, we were also there all day on Thursday.
On Friday we went on shore in coal boats drawn by a tug. When we got on the shore we went for a march around the town of Suez and to a-nother [sic] town about 1 mile away. The town is a lovely place. the houses are build [sic]
[page break]
of stone, and then plastered [deleted] over [/deleted] over There is generaly [sic] a lot of fancy wood work in the front of the houses which makes them look pretty. It is supprising [sic] to see the different coulors [sic] of the people there, there are some white people their, [sic] mostly French and Spaniards
[page break]
Then there are the natives which are tan coulored, [sic] also a lot of niggers. When we were on the march they stopped us and told us to go and paddle in the sea, which we enjoyed very much, as it was very dusty, and our feet were hot from marching. Then we went and had some
[page break]
thing to eat, a hard roll like a dog biscuit and a sardines.
Then we went to see a football match between the right and left half [indecipherable word] of our brittalian [sic] they had to finish before the proper time as it was getting dark, we then made our way to the shore but it was to [sic] ruff [sic] to go across to our ship in the coal
[page break]
boat, so we had to stop the night in a cargo boat called “Neghileh” we were packed like sardines in a box, some of us had to sleep on the top deck, our company were sleeping in a poky old hole were [sic] there had been a lot of hay, and which smelt [sic] of tobacco [indecipherable word] very bad, we
[page break]
had to sleep in our cloths [sic] and had our boots for a pillow, we did not have much to eat and only water to drink. We came back again on (Sat) morning about 9pm and glad we were to get a good breakfast. We saw some of the native police x they look very well in there [sic] uniform
[page break]
but I should not like there [sic] job as the natives are a ruff [sic] lot to deal with, the mounted police have splended [sic] horses. I only saw 2 bicicles, [sic] and I did not see a motor car at all their. [sic]
There has about 75 thousand Indian troops come into the harbour today Monday 16th Nov
[page break]
for the front.
We started again from the Suez harbour on Wednesday morning about 9am. The town of Suez is in Arabia. Our company were inockulated [sic] again on Thursday 19th Nov. We have two big gun’s [sic] on boat they are 4.7 bore. I saw the sailors practising
[page break]
this morning Friday our sailors are very good with them they hit the target almost every time, we have been rear guard biggest part of the way yet.
We [deleted] got to Aden on Monday at 11am were [sic] we stayed to post letters, and waite [sic] for a fresh escort. On Tuesday
[page break]
there several vessels came into the harbour with Austrailian [sic] and New Zeland [sic] troops on them, they were going to Aldershot for a short time and then going to the front if they were wanted. Aden is a very quiet place it look’s [sic] a lonely place to live at.
[page break]
There is a big barracks their, [sic] were [sic] they bring rigements [sic] that have disgraced there [sic] self as a punishment. They do not keep [inserted] them [/inserted] their [sic] more than 12 months because it is so lonely [insered] and difficult to get water [/inserted] We started from their [sic] on Thursday at 1.30 On Sunday 29th I was vaxanated [sic] most of the company were done on (Sat)
[page break]
[underlined] December 1914 [/inderlined]
We reached Bom Bay [sic] on Tuesday Dec. 1st at 7pm we ancored [sic] just outside the town till Wednesday morning and then we went in the dock, we were allowed [sic] off the boat from 4pm till 9pm to go just around the dock buildings
[page break]
only. Bom Bay [sic] is a very pretty place. Their [sic] is a big Y.M.C.A. their [sic] They use bullocks mostly to do the hauling an ploughing and use ponnies [sic] to do the cab work There is a splended [sic] market their, [sic] it is much bigger than the one at Shrewsbury.
[page break]
We started from Bom Bay [sic] for Calcutta on (Thur.) about 12 oclock. We were traveling [sic] on the Great Indian Peninsula and the Bengal Nagpur railways. The [indecipherable word] ride through the cuntry [sic] was lovely we saw droves of cattle, sheep, and goats, and a lot of monkeys
[page break]
India is a cuntry [sic] with a tremengous [sic] quantity of fruit growing in it We saw large quantites [sic] of bananas Oranges and [deleted] coca [/deleted] cocoa [sic] nuts We were three days going from Bom Bay [sic] to Calcutta we only stoped [sic] just to get our food at different stations.
[page break]
We landed at Calcutta on (Sun) about 3.30. We went on a [indecipherable word] boat called the “City of Marseilles” as soon as we could after landing. It was not so fine a boat as the Deseado We started from Calcutta on Monday morning about 7.30 for
[page break]
Rangoon. We arrived at Rangoon on Thursday morning about 7am. We disembarked about 10am. the natives brought us roses, cigars and matches and gave them to us. We then marched through the town up to our barracks, we had 3 bands
[page break]
playing us up there. The barracks are very nice places, we each have a bed and a locker of our own. Rangoon is a splendid place by what I have seen up to now. There are several other barracks were [sic] we are with different rigements [sic] in them.
[page break]
Part of our company and D company had to march back to the ship about 4 pm because we had to go back [inserted] to [/inserted] an island about 300 miles from Rangoon to guard convicts. the island is called Andaman island. We were allowed to go off the ship from
[page break]
3pm till 9.30 pm on Friday I went for a strool [sic] through the town and afterwards to the picture palace Rangoon is a buisness [sic] like town you can get almost everything you can menshon [sic] from the shops.
The shops are [indecipherable word] very much
[page break]
different to what they are in England. There is very [inserted] little [/inserted] frontage to them they are all open in the front so that you can see them making the things inside them. There are a good many British people in Rangoon. I was in the Y.M.C.A. on
[page break]
Saturday evening it is a lovely place. On Sunday morning the Wostershire [sic] regiement [sic] came on the boat they were going to England and then to the front. We are going to get of [sic] at Port Blair on one of the Andaman, [inserted] isles [/isles] and then the boat is going to take
[page break]
the Wostershire [sic] regiement [sic] on to Calcutta.
We left Rangoon about 11.30 [inserted] am [/inserted] on Sunday, we reached Port Blair on Tuesday morning at 7am. [inserted] Dec 10th 1914 [/inserted] Port Blair is a nice little place we have decent barracks, nearly the same as those at Rangoon
Dec 21st my birthday
[page break]
Dec 22nd I was on guard for my first time I was on guard with 2 more at a wireless station on the Aberdeen island about 1 mile from Ross island There is about 13000 prisoners on the two island There is a very big prison on
[page break]
the Aberdeen island were [sic] most of the prisoners are kept We did not have a very good day on Christmas day we had stew for dinner, and each man had 1 packet of cigarettes and a cigar, we also had a bottle of pop. we did not have any milk in our tea and
[page break]
very little sugar. On New Years Day we had bacon and 2 eggs for breakfast, beef and potatoes and pudding for dinner we were also allowed 1 [inserted] tin [/instered] herrings between 3 for our tea, so that is all the Xmas and New Year we have had.
[page break]
On New Years Day we selebarated [sic] what is called procklumation [sic] day in India the chief commisoner [sic] was there.
Ross island [inserted] is [/inserted] a very small island it is about 2 miles all around it It is very quiet here [inserted] there is [/inserted] no place of ammusement [sic] of any kind
[page break]
The natives of these islands are called Andamanese. They are supposed to be one of the lowest tipe [sic] of umanity [sic] there is in exstance [sic] They wear no cloths [sic] at all except a string tied around their middle and some of them not even that.
[page break]
They are not very big about 4’2” or 3” in hight [sic] with very black curley [sic] hair There [sic] skin is also very black.
Up to about 50 years ago they were savages, and used to kill everybody that went into their quarters unless they belonged to their tribe. Their [sic] is twelve tribes
[page break]
of them, At one time they were a very big race of people and used to cover biggest part of Burma, but have been driven down by the other races from the north, till their [sic] is very few of them left, these islands are the only places their [sic] are any left except a few in
[page break]
the south of Burma They are very good shots with bows and arrows, and live entirly [sic] by fishing and hunting. Their [sic] is one tribe still that are savages called gallowoys, and often when convicts go to cut timber from the part off [sic] the island in which they live,
[page break]
they kill them Since we have been at Port Blair there has been a fight between the gallowoys and the other Andamanese It was over some of the convicts cutting some cocoa [sic] nut trees down the gallowoys killed several convicts, then the other Andamanese
[page break]
that are more civelezed, [sic] and are emploued [sic] by the government of India to keep the gallowoys quiet went to stop them and then they started to fight but it did not last but a day or two or we should have had to have gone to help the Andamanese
[page break]
The reason they started this settlement here was because years ago when sailing boats were mostly used, in stormy weather this part becomes very rough so that boats used to get drifted onto these islands when crossing the bay of Bengal these islands
[page break]
are in the direct line boats take when crossing the bay.
When the boats got drifted unto the islands, and were waiteing [sic] for the sea to get calm the Andamanese used to rush down upon them and kill them and take all the things belonging them
[page break]
This was a big loss to the government (then the so called East Indian company) So they determined to start a settlement here so that if any boats got drifted the [inserted] people [/inserted] would be able to come on shore in safety, They had very great diffucalty [sic] in starting it they had to drive
[page break]
the natives off. and had many big battles with them, but after a time they began to get more freindly [sic] towards one another They afterwards started a convict settlement [sic] and build [sic] a big prison on Aberdeen Island which has about 13000 convicts in it.
[page break]
On Sunday 28 Mar I saw a shark which the convicts had caught, with a ordainary [sic] fishing line. it was only a younge [sic] one and was exactaley [sic] 8 feet long. its two side fins are 20 inches long and the fin on the tope [sic] of its back is 15 inches long.
[page break]
We left Port Blair for Singapore on Good Friday Apr 2 we started at 6pm on board a small troop ship called Mayo. The 2nd forth [sic] Somersets realeived [sic] us. We landed at Rangoon on Sunday morning (Easter Sunday) about 8.30. We were allowed to [inserted] go [/inserted] off the boat from 10am
[page break]
to 6pm. I first went up to the barracks to see some off [sic] my pal’s [sic] that were in the hospital that had been left behind the rest of the brittalion [sic] when they went to Singapore. After dinner I went to see the pogoda [sic] it is a magnificunt [sic] place, it is the
[page break]
finest pogoda [sic] in the world and is supposed to be one of the seven wonders of the world. It would be useless to attempt to describe it. We saw some very find carveing [sic] at the show room at port Blair but it is nothing to be compared with
[page break]
the carveing [sic] in the pagoda. Their [sic] is four entrances to it and you have to go up a lot of steps to get to the palace were [sic] [indecipherable words] are along the bottom of the steps there are people selling all kinds of things, especialy [sic] candles, also a lot of natives begging The natives have
[page break]
to take off their shoes before approaching the idle [sic] which they wish to worship. I afterwords [sic] went to the enclousure [sic] were [sic] the wild [inserted] beasts [/inserted] are kept. I saw several kinds of snakes, bears, lions, tigers, elephants, camels, dears [sic], monkeys, parots [sic], and many more things I cannot remember
[page break]
the names off [sic].
We started for Singapore on Easter Monday with the men that were left in charge of the lugage [sic] at Rangoon and those that were left behind in the hospital that were [inserted] now [/inserted] able to travell [sic]. We reached Singapore on Sat 10th Apr; Singapore
[page break]
is a very fine place, must hotter than Port Blair.
We started from Singapore on Tuesday 13th for Hongkong [sic] in China on a boat called Eumaeus. We reached Hongkong [sic] on Sun. 17th Apr.
[page break]
[2 blank pages]
[page break]
[numbers]
[page break]
[6 pages of addresses]
[page break]
[notes]
[page break]
[addresses]
[page break]
[list of locations and other notes]
passed a ship full of English passengers
[list of locations]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A Dorricott's army diary
Description
An account of the resource
A handwritten notebook containing the war diary of A Dorricott from October 1914. He embarks the SS Deseado at Southampton and sails through the Bay of Biscay, past Gibraltar to Malta. They continued with naval escorts to Port Said, through the Suez canal, a stop at Aden then on to Bombay, Calcutta then finally Rangoon. After a stay there he sails for Singapore then Hong Kong. He describes the trip with comments about Australian and New Zealand troops on their way to the Western Front, the coaling station, his living conditions, the food, and the animals he saw.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
A Dorricott
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One handwritten notebook
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Diary
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
YDorricottAArmy2465v10001,
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
British Army
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nicki Brain
Alan Pinchbeck
Karl Williams
David Bloomfield
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Burma
Burma--Rangoon
China
China--Hong Kong
Egypt
Egypt--Port Said
Egypt--Suez Canal
Great Britain
England--Southampton
India
India--Mumbai
India--Kolkata
Malta
Singapore
Yemen (Republic)
North Africa
England--Hampshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1914
1915
animal
military living conditions
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/698/26264/EBattyAHDBattyPH400910-0001.1.jpg
b08de05d14d676a364c700bda9ae0709
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/698/26264/EBattyAHDBattyPH400910-0002.1.jpg
d1dab754dd81f89862fb404c85199fa0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Batty, Dennis
Arthur Henry Dennis Batty
A H D Batty
Description
An account of the resource
Twelve items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant Arthur Dennis Batty DFM (1920 - 1941, 619060, Royal Air Force) and consists of his diary, letters and documents. He flew operations as an air gunner with 226 Squadron. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Christine Aram and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Dennis Batty is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/201592/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Batty, AHD
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Where Shamrocks grow though I don’t get a chance to see ‘em.
10-9-40.
Dear Phil,
Just a few lines in reply to your ever welcome letter which I haven’t yet received, & which you must have posted last week as I haven’t yet read it ‘cos it will not get here till yesterday. I have some sad news for you Phil, our squadron Pig died yesterday & he was our nearest[?] so you had not better open this letter till 2 hrs after you receive it so that it will break the news more gently, the vet said it died from pneumonia but between me & you Phil, it died from lack of breath I’m sure.
Well thats[sic] the kind of thing we have to put up with, with these Irishmen. I hope that you are still as well as when I last saw you & still working your fingers to the bone on the Transport.
[page break]
Well Phil I’m afraid there isn’t any more news, as I can’t give you any details of the raids that we do as it isn’t done, as much as you would like to know, although we are giving ‘em twice as much as they could possibly give us. So I will have to say goodbye & I felt I had to write just to relieve the monopoly [inserted] that’s a game we play, but it also means a kind of repetition of things so Im[sic] told to be sure. [/inserted] of your life so I will say goodbye & look if you want to see me, I shall be in Belfast at 7 next Sunday by the monument & if I get there first I’ll put a chalk mark [deleted word] on it but if you get there first, rub it out & I shall know that you can’t possibly come so goodbye for now stooge.
Your loving Brother Denis
P.S. Give my love to all. I will write to Dad a little later.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Dennis Batty to brother Phil
Description
An account of the resource
Comments on recent letters and reports death of squadron pig. Continues with banter and gossip. Mentions that he cannot write about his operations. Writes that he would be back in Belfast next Sunday and hopes to meet up with him.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
A H D Batty
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-09-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EBattyAHDBattyPH400910
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Northern Ireland--Belfast
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sue Smith
animal
-
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Leedham, Alma
Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham
A L M Leedham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Leedham, A
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham (1922 - 2020, 455833 Royal Air Force), memoirs of herself and her husband Warrant Officer Terence Leedham an armourer who also served on a number of bomber command stations. She served as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force stationed at RAF Scampton and East Kirkby.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alma Leedham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-05-14
2017-05-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Alma Leedham
I was born in Fulham, London on 26th June 1922. I am now 91 years old and trying to put into words some of the things that have happened during the years so far. I had no sisters and just one brother. Graham was two years younger than me and from the age of 6ys I was made responsible for his safety. London was a wonderful place in those days. We were allowed to wander off and visit Museums and anything that was ‘Free of charge’.
.We [sic] learnt to swim in the Thames and were constantly going over the bridge into Putney for the start of the Oxford & Cambridge boat race each year. When I was 11 years old the family moved to Kingston-on-Thames. Because I had been run over by a car when I was 9yrs old I did not go to school for several weeks (in those days it was not considered important for a girl to do well at school – she would grow up and get married). I was just 14yrs and 1 month when I left school and got a job as an apprentice dressmaker. I made tea, washed up and went out to buy buns for the ladies tea break during which time, I also had to take material to another shop where buttons and belt buckles were made to order. I was there for about 6 weeks, earning 5 shillings per week and I got the sack for sliding down the banisters.of [sic] the 3 storey workshop. Apart from getting another job on the way home, not a lot happened until War was declared in September 1939. By then I was 17yrs of age and working as a Progress Chaser at Hawker Aircraft where the Hurricanes were being built. I stayed with them until near the end of 1941 when I decided to join the RAF
Learning to drive at Blackpool was not easy. There were 3 girls to each car and, when 4 of our ”Teachers” were picked up on a smash-and-grab raid by the Police, we had to start from “scratch” in North Wales which, at that time of year, was really beautiful with all the many rhodedendrons [sic] in full bloom. Three weeks on cars followed by another 3 weeks on lorries found most of us having passed all tests. Our half days were spent on classroom work where we learnt all about what went on under the bonnet
Early in June 1942 I was posted to RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire where as WAAFs we were billeted in what had been originally, the married quarters. There were 3 of us to a room. Kath Williams (known as Bill), Vivian Winsome and myself. I think there were at least two more girls in the upstairs bedroom. (I little knew then that my second daughter would be born in the same house, No 18,. Some years later) Of course we only used the house for sleeping and our meals were served in the main cookhouse which also served as a cinema in the evenings. Driving all types of vehicles and meeting all sorts of people was soon part of the daily round. At that time Squadrons using the 4 hangers were 83 Sqdn who were in the process of changing from Wellingtons to Lancasters and 49 Sqdn who were flying Manchesters. Manchesters only had 2 engines and so, apparently, were not able to travel the required distances to Germany and were taken out of use. 83 Sqdn had been posted down south where I think they became part of the Pathfinders and, 57 Sqdn from Feltwell in Norfolk arrived as their replacement. It was then that I was transferred from a general driver in the MT Service area to 57 Sqdn as a tractor driver; taking the bombs from the Bomb Dump to the kites (as the planes were called in those days).. My house mate, Vivian, worked in the Bomb Dump and each morning she would have 6 bombed up trolleys (2 bomb loads) ready for me to take to the aircraft that would
[page break]
Be flying that night and I would leave for the dispersal points where the armourers would be waiting to take one 4,000 bomb and 2 loads of incendiaries for each aircraft. I soon got to know quite a few of the Ground Crews and to cut a long story short, among them was the man who was destined to become my future husband. Lofty Leedham (he was 6’2”) as he was known then was a Flight Sergeant in charge of the guns and turrets and the men who worked on them. Our boss was Warrant Officer Cook but, to tell you about him would make my story a great deal longer. It was quite a while before I discovered that Lofty’s Christian name was Terry. Our first date was on 6/06/43 and early in July Terry came down to Kingston-on-Thames to meet my Mum & Dad. In the August, only a month later 57 Sqdn was moved to East Kirkby where A Flight of 57 became part of the newly formed 630 Sqdn. We got married on 12th September from my parents home in Kingston-upon-Thames. Due to “rationing” and a shortage of everything, our wedding took place with me wearing a borrowed wedding dress but, we did manage with the help of neighbours, who gave us their food coupons, to have a small Wedding cake. Because the arrangements we had made for our honeymoon collapsed, we spent the next week living with my parents and going to London most evenings to see some of the shows. We did manage to see the Beverly Sisters and Danny Kaye before going back to East Kirkby where arrangements had been made for us to live “Off Camp”. the farm/pub where we slept was homely and was also very handy, as the bottom end of the farm was the boundary of the RAF perimeter and it was just a case of lifting our bikes over the railing and cycling round the Airfield to where we worked. It was then that I was put on night duty, so we were almost just passing each other, either to go to work or to come home each morning and evening. But that didn’t last for long when the discovery that I was !expecting! got me sent home to Mum & Dad. So I was no longer a member of the RAF. When in August of the following year our first daughter, Lesley, was born, we managed to find ‘Living Out’ accommodation in Lincoln which was some way from being ideal. Being back at RAF Scampton was like going home for us. We eventually were given the opportunity to taking over one of the Married Quarters with the provision that we clean it up and make it liveable. That was when we moved into No 18. and where our second daughter, Valerie was born, almost exactly 2 years after Lesley. (just 4 days difference). This was quite soon after we had found a nine month flatcoat (like a golden retriever only black). We called him “N*****” after Guy Gibson’s dog. He was a birthday present for Lesley. In those days we didn’t have much money so we were very pleased when the local butcher gave him to us. His history was that he had been bought by a couple for their son who had unfortunately been killed in Germany and they were unwilling to keep the dog. N***** spent many years with us but there were times when we had to leave him with my parents. For instance, when Terry was posted to the middle East and Singapore. I often had to wait a long time for a married quarter to become available but when I was able to take the girls to where ever Terry was serving I had to leave N***** with my family and go. . . N***** was always so pleased to see us each time we came home. The years passed and when we were living near Salisbury and the girls were starting to go to school there were no married quarters available, so we bought a caravan and got permission to live in the grounds of the nearby School of Chemical Warfare where Terry was in charge of “Working with Chemicals” . . Soon after we moved into the married quarter. I discovered that I was expecting another baby who arrived in the January and was our son, Richard. We now had three Children. . The next posting was Singapore and
[page break]
I waited 15months [sic] before getting a trip on the Asturius, (troopship) with the girls to join him. . The Suez Canal was not available for us in those years so, a trip round the bottom end of Africa lengthened our journey to Singapore. Terry met the ship on the harbour and took us to our new home in Serangoon Valley. (All this was written some time ago and I am now trying to make some sort of finish. (Terry died 25years [sic] ago and my memory is not quite what it was . . . . I am now 93 years old. .
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Alma Leedham's memoir
Description
An account of the resource
Tells of early life in London, joining the Woman's Auxiliary Air Force in 1941 and training as a driver. Relates experiences at RAF Scampton and then with 57 Squadron as a tractor driver pulling bomb trolleys. Subsequently went to East Kirkby. Married Terence Leedham who was an armourer on 57 Squadron in late 1943. Left the Woman's Auxiliary Air Force on expecting her first child. Continues with family history at RAF Scampton and postings to the middle east and Singapore.
Creator
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A Leedham
Format
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Three page printed document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BLeedhamALeedhamAv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Kingston upon Thames
England--Surrey
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-06
1942-09-12
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
49 Squadron
57 Squadron
630 Squadron
83 Squadron
animal
bomb dump
bomb trolley
ground personnel
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
tractor
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/495/17734/PCollerAS17010001.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Coller, Allan Stanley
A S Coller
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Coller, AS
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. An oral history interview with Allan Coller (1924, 1874018 Royal Air Force). Also a number of other items associated with the Air Cadets and his service in Sri Lanka and India including a scrapbook of photographs.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Allan Coller and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
AS Coller Scrapbook Page 1
Description
An account of the resource
Three annotated items:
Item 1 : Photograph of air raid shelter with pets
caption 1 'Air Raid Shelter constructed by a firm called "Troy" in 1938. Left [undecipherable] It was 16' deep with a poisen [sic] gas free escape hatch chamber.'
caption 2
'Just before 2nd World War
10, West Heath Avenue Golders Green London NW11
Some animals understand to keep together
Just before 2nd World War 1938
Pekenese [sic] (Chinky) Rabbit (Wilfred) Cat (Timy)
Taken near our air raid shelter'.
Item 2 is photograph of a group of air cadets on parade in a street. They are being inspected by a civilian in a suit and three officers. It is captioned 'I joined the Air Training Corps in Jan 1941'.
Item 3 is the cover of a Civil Defence leaflet. entitled 'Some things you should know if war should come'. Public Information Leaflet No.1, July 1939.
It is captioned 'The 2nd World War started at 1100 hrs on the 3rd of Sept 1939.'
Format
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One sheet from a scrapbook
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Photograph
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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PCollerAS17010001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
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A S Coller
Great Britain. HM Government. Lord Privy Seal's Office
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938
1939
Air Raid Precautions
animal
civil defence
-
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7a7bc04ecbf0bcccac4bb87cf872c71a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/219/3359/ACahirFS160608.2.mp3
8e770b50bb0ff69fc5e3b1766aef81c7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cahir, Francis Shamus
Francis Shamus Cahir
Jim Cahir
Francis S Cahir
Francis Cahir
F S Cahir
F Cahir
J Cahir
Description
An account of the resource
44 items. An oral history interview with Francis Shamus "Jim" Cahir (419441 Royal Australian Air Force), letters, documents, photographs and a sub collection.
He flew operations as a mid upper gunner with 466 Squadron. His aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jim Cahir and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-09
2016-06-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cahir, FS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: So, this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s with Jim Cahir a 466 squadron mid-upper gunner and prisoner of war. The interview is taking place at Jim’s place in Airport West. Just across the road from mine as it happens. It’s the 8th of June 2016 and my name’s Adam Purcell. Jim, let’s start from the beginning.
JFSC: Yes.
AP: Can you tell me something of what you were doing before the war and why you joined the air force?
JFSC: Yeah. Well I was eighteen and the position with the government in those days, and this was 1942, was that all eighteen year olds you were called up in 1942 and they had to join the army. But I had more interest in the air force so I signed up after great trouble with my mother, who I can well understand, giving me permission to sign up for the air force. Eventually she did and I can understand much later that why she didn’t want me to join the air force. She’d lost her, my father, her husband only some years earlier. And I was still only very much a young boy at eighteen. But I went into the army as requested by the army authorities and I spent nine months in the army which I enjoyed, quite candidly. And then I was on the way to go to go to New Guinea and I’d reached Queensland for more training in the army when the air force decided to call out of the army all those young fellows like me who were young. We were eighteen. We’d signed up as volunteers. We’d had the education necessary. We’d already passed. So I was called back along with a lot of others from Queens, northern Queen, northern New South Wales and Queensland to join the air force, which I had already actually signed up for. And that was in August 1942. I was discharged from the army at 12 o’clock one day, and I was in the air force the same day at 1 o’clock, which was very disappointing because I mentioned I was going to get a bit of leave there but it never occurred. But anyhow, I joined and from that point on I became an air force recruit which, and I went to the usual places, Somers which was Initial Training School. And then after a couple of months at Somers I was posted to Parks in New South Wales which is a wireless school. And I spent six months at Parks and then I was transferred to Port Pirie which was a gunnery school. And from that point on I became an accomplished operator of radio and gunnery. At least I thought I was. From that, at that stage things were pretty desperate here in Australia. This was, must have been in 1943, early ‘43. And I was selected along with some others to do a special gunnery course at Mildura. I was dragged out of a draft that was going to England to do this course in Mildura. But it turned out after some time, a couple of months I think, three months maybe, that they trained us but they had no planes to allocate to us or for us to be a part of the crew. We were all sent back to embarkation depot which happened to be at the showground in Flemington there. From there we hung around for a period of time and was then put on the ship to go to England which we really didn’t know what was going on. We were just put on one day and sailed the next night I think. And the trip was very interesting to the extent that we passed through New Zealand. The ship got lost, believe it or not, in the Pacific Ocean, outside the port of Cuba, or Panama first. And we were approached by the American Air Force with a bomber with bomb doors open and, as far as we could see, a half dozen rather large menacing looking bombs. That flew directly over the ship. The ship was now silent in the Pacific Ocean and obviously they were getting directions from the Americans what to do. We eventually landed in panama, went through the Panama Canal. From the Panama Canal we went up to New York and set sail for, across the Atlantic for England. And we landed in England in Cardiff. And ended up being transferred from Cardiff to London just to be in time for an air raid that none of us had experienced and we thought it was very exciting. But the Londoners knew better than we did and we were hustled down to a air raid shelter for [pause] whilst the raid went on. From then we joined the — Brighton which is in south of England. And it was the home town of the, all the Australians. Where they had taken over the two big hotels and we were sort of landed in one of the hotels, not as a hotel but just as a sleeping establishment and for further schooling on wireless and air gunnery etcetera. From that point I was allocated to [pause] I’m trying to think of the name of the place, doesn’t matter. To a further advanced school for gunnery and for wireless and then eventually ended up on 466 Squadron.
AP: Can you tell me how you met your crew? Tell me how you met your crew?
JFSC: Yes. Yes. We sort of knew but there was quite a crowd. There was twenty odd I think, new recruits. And we were told that we were to crew up and we were put into a hangar more or less with the rest of the crew and I was approached by my pilot to be. And he was — I was acceptable to him and he seemed to be very acceptable to me. And thus from Pat Edwards, the pilot I met the rest of the crew who had, he had more or less selected prior to meeting me. So I became the last member of the crew as were all the others. It was amazing. Always amazed me that you could throw all those fellows together and they’d come out. Go in the entrance, come out at the exit all crewed up and all happy to be crewed up with those particular people who selected them or talked to them about it. From there of course it was, things were — more training on the squadron and a lot of daily flying on journeys across England and also night flying which was at that time quite terrifying to us who had never been in a plane at night. And you had to take off in the half light and come home in pitch black and try and find your own aerodrome was, I hate to say it but it was an effort on behalf of us by the navigator George Britt and the pilot and there were occasions they were dependent upon me to sight certain land beacons. To advise them that a beacon over there on the starboard side signalling such and such. AD, or some such thing. And that’s how we got home on one or two occasions but the authorities on the squadron didn’t know that.
AP: Very good. Backtracking a bit can you tell me what your thoughts were the first time you ever went in an aeroplane?
JFSC: Say again.
AP: What your thoughts were the first time you ever went in an aeroplane?
JFSC: Yes. That’s, I was very happy to be crewed up with Pat Edwards whose photo is there and his story is under there which I wrote.
AP: Oh excellent.
JFSC: And you can read and take a copy if you so desire. Tells what a wonderful bloke he was. I was very happy and it was exciting. There was no fear on my part as to the first time and that was only [pause] that was only more or less short trips around the aerodrome. The thing was that he had to find, I think, navigate around the Yorkshire in general and find your way home. And we spent quite some time doing that and we were, we thought we were pretty proficient at it.
AP: By the time you finished. You told me a little about when, when you first got to England and the first air raid shelter when you just arrived, before you got to Brighton.
JFSC: Yes. Well we certainly, we landed as I said landed at Cardiff. Came up by train to London and whilst we were in the train, not, more or less on the express of London the air raid sirens had sounded which meant that the train was slowed down and did stop temporarily somewhere and then obviously had instructions to carry on to whatever London station it was, which we’d forgotten. And I think really looking back on it was a foolish time in that we were in an air raid after being in London no more than half an hour and it was sort of exciting but we didn’t realise how ridiculous that thoughts were. And everybody was saying, ‘Oh,’ you know, ‘Write home about the air raid,’ and that, but really it was [pause] we were taken out of the train at one of the major stations and taken to an air raid shelter in a hotel, the basement of a hotel. Where? I don’t know. But the air raid did not last very long. And I sort of heard the guns firing and that’s about all.
AP: What, what did you think of wartime England in general? When you — your first impressions.
JFSC: I was amazed at the number of uniforms from different nationalities. There were hundreds or there were thousands of different nationalities walking around London, obviously on leave, all with different uniforms. And I thought who were the Brits and who were the — [pause] Anyhow, we soon found out how and it was an exciting time. We had twenty four hours I think in some hotel in London. And then we moved down to Brighton which was on the coast, South coast. After being in Brighton for a period of time we knew we were in England and we knew that they were pretty stoic. There was air raids, not every day. But Brighton, being on the coast, sort of seemed to be a place that the Germans seemed to like and drop bombs on. And we became quite used to air raid sirens and air raid warnings and we took notice of them. It wasn’t quite as exciting as the first one. It was more, we were more reasonable and realistic about it.
AP: What sorts of things did you do in England when you weren’t, you know on operations, what, what were you doing on leave for example, to relax?
JFSC: Well, we didn’t get plenty of leave from Brighton but we did get some and we’d head for London which was the Mecca of most airmen’s dreams or wishes to see. And we’d have a day or two leave but we had to go back to Brighton. It wasn’t until we got to another town [pause] I can’t [pause] my memory’s slipping on me. I can’t think of it. It was a training camp and we were introduced to Halifaxes there. And we had to do a certain number of hours. More the pilot had to do a certain number of hours training in there. Naturally the crew, we’d already been picked and we spent some time at this place and eventually moved from there to Leconfield which was the home of 466 Squadron and just continued our training there for some time.
AP: What did you think when you first saw a Halifax?
JFSC: A huge plane. I hadn’t seen anything like it. We was really, I can understand us being shipped out of Australia to England. I mean they wanted air crews but here in Australia the biggest plane they had was sort of a Hudson bomber which was out of date. And there was nothing to it to take its place and — that I know that I know of, oh they introduced flying 14 Liberators many months, many months. Maybe twelve months, maybe longer to Australians flying in from the northern parts of Australia and the islands. But I, I hadn’t seen a plane the size of a Halifax, and particularly four engines in it too. The biggest plane I’d probably seen was one with one engine in it. So our learning was very dramatic, very quick, and quite exciting.
AP: So what happened when you got to Leconfield?
JFSC: Leconfield. The training still continued. But it was getting more serious all the time. We did a lot of night flying, a lot of flying. Well, searching for planes that had come down over the North Sea quite often. Or, I presume, submarines or something like this. And I can remember going as far as Norway at one stage along the coast. Not that I saw Norway but what I knew was there we were flying up and down a stretch of the North Sea, or the Atlantic Ocean. I don’t know which was which now. Probably didn’t know then [laughs] either. Never saw a thing. But it was the Yanks had been to bomb a nuclear outfit in Norway that the Germans had set up and it was there — I think they called it a heavy water unit. It’s come back to me just then now. I was fishing for the name. And they had lost a few planes going out. We were pulled out to go and look for them. We could have dropped a dinghy if we’d seen anything. But I do believe that any plane that came down in the North Sea was doomed and I don’t really know of anybody but I’m sure there were some that did survive but I don’t know. I never met anybody that survived the North Sea or the Atlantic in the middle of winter which was December. So, that was more or less part of our training but part of our employment to try and save American lives. Never saw anything so —
AP: What, what happened next? Now you were at, you were on ops.
JFSC: On?
AP: Were you on operations now at 466?
JFSC: Yes. We were from that point on more or less we were treated as operational. That, that could have been really an operational trip but it wasn’t treated as. Then the next trip was dropping mines along the coast of Holland and I can’t think of the name of the place and I can’t show you a log book because I don’t know. I have no idea what happened to mine and it’s a thing of the past. It hasn’t, it did upset me originally but I thought — well what of it anyhow? I remember what I had to do and what I did. And I was dropping mines and very, very I understand that they’re very clever, mines, they, we sailed — or flew along the coast.
[someone enters the room]
AP: Hello.
Other: Hello. Hi.
AP: Where were we?
JFSC: Yeah. Oh yes. I was telling you about the mines.
AP: Oh yes.
JFSC: And they were very crafty, mines. They were, I think about two hundred and fifty pounds mines which was more or less, I think, I don’t know — my memory might be astray there. And they were dropped at a certain speed of the aircraft and at a certain height and they sank to the bottom and they lay dormant on the sea bed for a set period of time, might be three months, might be six months. I probably did know at that time but I can’t be sure. But yeah, then they floated to the surface, or not quite the surface but to a required depth, which caught heavier ships rather than somebody in their rowing boat. And they were supposed to have been very successful in that the Germans would sweep for mines, be clear, because they couldn’t scrape the bottom and then they’d declare that area clean and then the thing would come up some time. Now, all that was told to us and I think they were probably the truth. I don’t know. But we believed it. And we thought we were doing a good job. So that was the first operation we had. The danger in that was that you were flying at night at fairly low altitude dropping sort of high explosive. That if you had the wrong height and these explosives hit the water they’d explode and they’d do the exact opposite to what they were meant to do. They’d blow you up.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: That was the main thing. And then also German fighters would patrol the coast and they had an advantage that they were controlled by radar etcetera. And they’d pick up you flying at a relatively low speed and not coming back. That’s what it amounted to. And there were quite a number who never came back as a result of mining operations. And it’s, I remember it was the entrance to the main shipping harbour in to Belgium or Amsterdam, somewhere in that area. And we would mine the, along the coast and to the mouth of the river, I suppose. It might have been river. I don’t know. Gulf anyhow. And I wish I could remember the name of the place. Well known port. Biggest port, I think in Europe. So that was the first one and we thought we were pretty good naturally. Then we had an operation to — we had a couple of them, mining. And then we did one to [pause] oh dear. The German city is, was in the Ruhr and in English it means food. So if you knew German you’d be able to tell me where I went. Food. Damn it.
JFSC: Essen.
AP: Essen. That’s right, very good. That was the first one. Essen. And then we had, came back and we were on another trip to Frankfurt on the Ruhr. Frankfurt – on – Main. The other Frankfurt’s over, well over in the eastern Germany. And we bombed Frankfurt but on our way home and a German night fighter took to us [unclear] in the – German night fighter took to us and shot us down. And I can tell you who it was. We’ve traced him. Heinrich Rokker. And he’d shot down sixty seven. He was an ace, as you can imagine, in the Luftwaffe and he shot down sixty seven four-engine bombers, Halifaxes and Lancasters. And he shot us down. And we only found that out much later. One member of the crew had paid a, he’s dead now, this member of the crew paid a visit to this Heinrich and was well received and he said the greatest danger it was that he couldn’t get away from Heinrich who was very happy to entertain him all day and all night. I never met Heinrich but I know all about him. And I’ll get to the reason that later on because that will tell you the story of what actually happened. So we were shot down and Patrick Edwards, who was twenty one at the time. I was just turned twenty. The rest of the crew were —
JFSC: The rest of the crew were twenty, twenty one, twenty two except for one old bloke who, he was, he was old. At least in our mind he was old. And his name was Ralph Parsons. We used to refer to him as Bloody Old Parso because he was so old. He was twenty seven. So that was the age of the crew, twenty seven — one. The rest in the vicinity of twenty, twenty one, twenty two I think. At the, the whole crew are now dead. I’m the sole survivor. I’m the sole survivor at, well ninety three really. Well ninety three next month.
AP: Looks pretty good for it too.
JFSC: Yeah. Yes. So I didn’t expect to be the sole survivor at all, but that too was a case of — we were shot down there. The starboard engine was shot to pieces and burst into flames. And all engines had exhaust, not exhaust, what do they, they call them? Extinguishers in them, which were supposed to control any fire that occurred in the engine itself. And the pilot ordered the extinguishers to be put on in the starboard engine, and the engineer did that, he reported, he did that, but he said they didn’t work, or they weren’t good enough. And never, I’ll never know of course but the fire still continued until it broke out into the wing itself, and then it spread along and it was burning fiercely in the engine and it spread out into the wing. And that would have traced oil or petrol coming down from the tanks there. And I was sitting in the mid-upper turret, and I was sort of looking down on it. So I could sort of report to the pilot exactly what I saw, which I did do. But it was a fierce fire and it got fiercer as it moved along the wing, and not certain whether it actually hit the inboard engine or not. Probably if it didn’t it would have, so the pilot baled us out, gave us instructions to bale out, which we did, six of us. And he stayed with the plane, and it was only his bravery and, and thought for us that he stayed with the plane and allowed us to get out in time. But he crashed in the plane and was killed obviously on impact. And he was buried at a little village called Belterhausen. B E L T E R S E N, I think. You can check that one. And [pause]
AP: I’m just going to stop it here.
JFSC: Still means a lot to me.
AP: Oh I’m sure. I can, I can tell it does because you still have your pilot’s photo up on the wall.
JFSC: Just give me a moment.
AP: Yeah. No problem at all.
[recording paused]
JFSC: Strange after all these years, and that was in December the 20th 1943 and here I am emotional. Anyhow, Pat was, gave his life for his crew and, I’m still in contact with the only member of his, the Edwards family that exists. Bruce Edwards was Pat’s younger brother, and I went and visited Mr and Mrs Edwards who lived in Newcastle. That’s when I got home and was able to tell them of my experience with their son Patrick, and how I owed my life to him. Bruce was only a schoolboy at the time and I’ve kept up contact with him right up until a phone call about a month ago just to find out how I’m going. And I have been up and I’ve stayed with the Edwards’ but they’re all dead except Bruce. Pat’s sister Mari who I got on well with in Newcastle. And she married an RAF bloke and lived in England, in England. And the times I’ve been to England I’ve always gone to see Mari. But she died just fairly recently. So the only connection is Bruce who is a retired solicitor now. So that’s my connection, but with the Edwards family which I’ll never forget of course.
AP: What was the first moment that you realised that you’d been shot down?
JFSC: Well, I probably had the best view of the fire. I’ll just turn that heater down a bit. I probably had the best view of the fire. Well I did have the best view of the fire because the others, some of them didn’t see it at all. And I remember saying to Pat, ‘Pat that’s breaking out into the wings.’ And he said, ‘Well, look at it we’ll have to abandon the aircraft, and I said, ‘I think so,’ and that’s when he said to abandon. So I suppose my view of the fire affected what I said. And which I believe was correct because when you’re sitting on front of a big flames, burns and smoke burning. And you could see it gradually moving along into the other engine, you had to make some decision, and Pat obviously was more occupied with — and the plane at this stage had gone into a dive. Because it lost power on one engine, and I think it probably lost the power on the other engine in due course. He had trouble in controlling it, and he eventually did get some control over it. That’s where it enabled us to get out because if it had gone into a spin you could — the centrifugal force would plaster you on to the walls of the plane, and that’s it. So, I probably didn’t realise then. I wasn’t — funny thing, I wasn’t frightened, like thinking back over it. I was, I knew what I was saying, I knew that what I was saying was the actual facts, and I knew that as soon as Pat said, ‘Abandon aircraft,’ I had to go, along with the others. So I bailed out of the rear entrance. And I fell, like I was conscious. I didn’t have time to take off — I had an electrical suit on for warmth, didn’t have time to take that off or anything like that. It would have been difficult to take it off anyhow. It would have been mad if I’d have tried it. So I fell and I can remember turning over. I can remember the plane passing over me and I was conscious I didn’t want to be caught in the tail of the plane. There were some cases of some poor individual got parachute — got caught up in the tail of the plane and he was dragged to his death. I think it has happened more than once. So I was conscious of that so I saw the, I don’t know whether you should have counted one, two, three, four, five or what, but I don’t remember doing that but I remember the tail of the plane passing over my head and disappearing and that’s the last I saw of it. It was on fire burning. I saw what happened. And I know now that we were over mountains and the plane must have come down on the other side of the mountain, and that blocked my view of anything that happened. That’s my interpretation of why I didn’t see it crash. So I landed in the ploughed paddy. You wouldn’t believe it, nice relatively soft landing in a ploughed paddy having no idea where I was. I managed to do all the wrong things. Got tangled up in the shroud, fell over backwards and in a cow shed but I was alright. I fought my way out of the shroud. And the instructions were very strict by the RAF. Get out of the area as fast as you can. Bury or hide your ‘chute. Hide up if it’s daylight. Hide up. But we didn’t fly during the days over the enemy territory, so it was unnecessary. But scram as fast as you can. And I did all those things. I gathered all the ‘chute up and I got into a forest which I just walked into. It was a pine forest of some description and after I’d gone in a certain distance — I didn’t have a clue where I was. I didn’t have a clue, north, south, east or west. But the main thing was get out of the area you came down in. And the plane was probably coming down at four or five hundred miles an hour so that everybody came down at a different time. And as far as I can see I was probably the second last or last out of the plane. So I don’t know what happened to the others and they didn’t have any idea what happened to me. I dug a hole with my hands in the forest and put the parachute and equipment that I had on me — Mae West and harness. And I tell you we all carried a kit, escape kit which contained a certain amount of money of all denominations and Horlicks tablets. And tablets which you’re supposed to put in a rubber water bottle and it purifies the water. And then the main thing was a silken map about the size of that and on one side was the map of Germany with the rivers and the main roads as far as I can remember. I would like to have kept that. And on the other side of — Europe, France, Belgium and Holland etcetera, and the same thing, but on the other side of the handkerchief. It was a handkerchief or a half scarf and that was silk. And that was all sort of in the escape kit which was kept in a pocket in your battledress here. And you wouldn’t dare open it unless you came down.
AP: Unless you needed it.
JFSC: Blokes were always dead keen to get hold of that that money. I can remember, in due course that was. I went for my life. Then after a bit of a rest in the forest I decided to go further on as far as I could but I wanted to hide up during the day. So I came to the edge of the forest when daylight was more or less breaking and I couldn’t see anywhere other than a bridge, little bridge. And I spent the next day underneath the bridge along with all the spiders etcetera, [laughs] which didn’t help me. At that stage I opened up my escape kit as they were known then and I counted my money which was, from memory was Dutch and Danish and French, Dutch, yeah. And I don’t think it would have got me very far on the local bus. There was hardly anything. But it was all genuine money and we had been promised that it was genuine money. You had to hand the escape kits back in when you landed at home. And they said that it was a death penalty for anybody who had counterfeit money in Germany during the war years. That’s what we were told. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t, I don’t know. But I accepted the fact that it was the correct money. So I counted that a couple of times just in case I made a mistake. It was impossible, make a mistake [laughs] anything up to five, five notes or something. And then darkness came and I was ready. I’d had, believe it or not I’d had a sleep of some description underneath the bridge. And then the darkness came and I was about on my way. I’d taken my flying boots off to relieve my feet a bit and counted my money again. That was important [laughs] because it filled in the time, looked at the map, and thought, yes — Paris. I’ll have a week in Paris before I turn myself in, or I contact the underground. So I marked out. It never occurred to me I had to cross two or three rivers between Frankfurt and the Rhine. And the Rhine at that point as far as I could see must have been half a mile wide. And I think, oh that’s alright, I’m sure to get over that. But then I was about to move and I’d stopped in a barn. It was about to snow, cold like today. And that’s why I’d stopped over night and had a bit longer than normal. And I’d made a hole in the weatherboards of the barn. I think I knocked out a notch in it, made it a bit bigger with another piece of timber. And all of a sudden I saw a farmer coming up carrying a gun, a rifle of some description, and two dogs. I’ve had it if he comes in the barn. And he did, with his dogs. Came in the barn and he poked round quite some time and I’m hiding behind stacked wood, firewood in a corner. And I thought I’m getting away with this. And the blinking dogs smelled me out and they got very excited. The farmer got very excited. And the only person who was calm and, as a cucumber was me. But anyhow he’s screaming his head off which made the dogs more excited and barking, and the look of them. They didn’t need a dentist to look at their teeth, they had perfect maulers and both of them fronting me and his screaming and dark brought more people out of the farmhouse which not so very far away. I don’t know. I say a hundred metres but I haven’t got any idea really. But it was quite close. And they came running, women and all and I was a goner. I knew I was a goner. So I went — the only. In the end the only person that was calm was myself. The people that came were excited, he was excited, the dogs were excited. And it was a real circus except I didn’t enjoy it. Anyhow, I was marched down the main street escorted by a young bloke who had a gun who’d come out of the farmhouse and could have been a soldier on leave. I don’t know. And the old farmer with his shotgun which he’d joined together at this stage ready to put a bullet through me. There’s no way knowing I was going to make a break for it at that stage. And I got knocked about a little bit by a young bloke who, you know. It was the old — he, I think he kicked me once or twice but it was mainly this [demonstrates] and I reckon I would have taken on Joe Louis, I would. You know. A really. At least I thought I was. But I was sensible enough not to fight back. If I’d fought back I’d heard tales of some blokes fighting back, silly, and getting beaten up good and proper. But I didn’t fight back. I protected myself as best I could which wasn’t particularly good. They marched me down. I met another bloke. They searched me for the umpteenth dozen time in that march down the village street. Everybody wanted to make certain I didn’t have a gun of some description. They even made me take the flying boots off. I don’t know what they expected in there. Luckily at that time they gave them back to me. They took them in a van later on. And then I met a bloke who went through me again as I went in. He picked up what I did carry always with me, Rosary beads. And I still carry them and I, he took them from me. He threw them on the ground and he stamped on them. And I wasn’t going, that about what it amounts to, I wasn’t going to pick them up. I thought, well I don’t have to have them. And I walked on, or was pushed on. And I’d gone another twenty or thirty metres I suppose and I felt a nudge on my back. And I sort of turned around expecting to find another bloke with a gun in his hand. And this was an old bloke who was probably not — well I was twenty I think at that stage and he was probably forty at the most but he was an old bloke as far as I was concerned. And he nudged me and said, ‘Catholic?’ And I nodded and he dropped the broken rosary beads in to my hand. And they were too, well I used them for a long time but they eventually sort of broke. Some of them were broken and they were cracked and that. They were sometime like that. And I don’t know what I’d done with them in the long run. I’d lost them so, and I never saw him again. And I don’t think anybody saw him doing it. I don’t know. But anyhow they were a great comfort to me. Then I was pushed into a cell. The local lock up which was below, the window was at the surface of the footpath outside. The cell was below and it was a broken window and I didn’t — I suppose it was, actually, as it turned out all that was locking me up locally until they got somebody of authority. And this was true. A bloke arrived. He had a hat on which had a velvet hat and he had a leather coat on and I’d been to the pictures about a week before in England the week before and I saw an SS bloke with the velvet hat and the leather coat. And he was come to take me. I thought, ‘Oh, hell’s bells.’ And whilst I was in the cell the local kids threw rubbish at me. Saw that the window was broken and I spent most of the time going from one side to the other. Down, up and down. And they threw everything at me and yelling at me but I didn’t understand a word of German so I couldn’t understand it. Anyhow, the SS bloke, he was an SS, Gestapo rather, bloke with the velvet hat and leather coat, and he came on a motorbike. So he took me away on a motorbike and chained me like that to the seat. Not, not — he rode a — what do you call it, a sidecar? So I was chained to the sidecar and I was hoping he was a good driver because I was going to arrive in a bad mess. Anyway he was sent and we arrived at a jail in Frankfurt. I wasn’t very far away from Frankfurt. And — am I alright?
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
JFSC: From there I was passed. He tried to do an interrogation and his English was [unclear] but I thought I was a smarty. I said that I couldn’t understand him and his English wasn’t good enough and that made him mad. And it made me mad too because I thought a stupid thing to say. I should have had more sense, just ignored him. And then I ended up in a place called Dulag Luft which every prisoner of war, air force prisoner of war finished up in. Dulag Luft. And that was in to a cell which was pretty, far less than — I could touch both sides. Because I used to do my exercise and I was there for about a week and I had a couple of interrogations. And all they got out of me was name, number and rank. And I stuck with that because the powers that be in England said, ‘If you start answering or have conversations with them you’ll find it, find it hard to stop.’ And that’s true. I spent Christmas day of all days in this lock up. Never saw a soul. Said, yelled out ‘Happy Christmas,’ [laughs] to anybody that could hear. Somebody in another cell — they yelled out too. That’s all we said. But my worry was that I was alright but I knew my mother who was a widow would be suffering. They would, the air force would have told her that I was missing on operations, which was right. Whereas I knew I was alright. So there you are. I upset the interrogators by insisting and quoting the Geneva Convention that that was all I had to say and he knew that was right. So in the end the Yanks got me out in the strip to the extent there was a big raid somewhere. The American Air Force had had a big raid on one of the cities somewhere very handy. I don’t know where. And they wanted the cells. And at least I take it they wanted the cells because all of a sudden there was about thirty air force blokes pushed out of their cell, their own private cell and gathered together and I think the Yanks were going to go in to there. I don’t — but that’s a certain amount of guesswork but it all happened all of a sudden. So, from there I went to, from Frankfurt. From Dulag Luft outside Frankfurt to Stalag 4B in Muehlberg in Saxony which is over in South East Germany in between, probably Berlin, Leipzig and Dresden, that group of. And Saxony was in that area and we were in Muehlberg. And I remained there in Muehlberg [pause] Am I going on too long?
AP: No. No. I have all the time in the world.
JFSC: I remained there. I had ideas of escaping and I changed places with a South African. The air force never worked. They were, couldn’t be trusted on the outside of the wire and they had, the Germans had good reason [laughs] to believe that. So, and the army, there was the camp at one stage had about forty thousand prisoners in it of every nationality. And I changed. And the army had to work. And they were taken out in work parties to do anything and everything I think. So I thought that’s a way out. If I can get out the main gate I’m on the way home. I had some funny ideas. I was optimistic. So I changed places entirely, with clothing, with any letters, where he came from in South Africa, where I came from in Australia. And we wrote our names down and put a sort of name there so that if we were caught we could say, ‘Yeah. That’s my home address.’ I went out and I spent a few days out as a private. I don’t know what his name was now — and working in the forest. And I found there were tighter restrictions there than in the camp. At least I thought so. There were more guards. They seemed to be closer to you all the time and at night you were locked up with a padlocked door sort of thing. So I thought, and the arrangements that were that they would, the workers would come back in to the main camp, Stalag 4B, for a shower if they were doing dirty work and we were doing dirty work. And I came back. It was every day but I don’t know every ten days you got a shower or something like that. You had to sort of wash in cold water otherwise but these were hot showers in the camp. And I’d arranged to come back. I decided to go back into the camp by changing places again with him, with this South African. At the shower we sort of changed. And that was the last time I saw of him. I never — I did it with another bloke but it wasn’t satisfactory. He was, he seemed to be more scared than I was. He was probably right too. And he didn’t last very long. He wanted to get out of the camp and get back to his mates, I think, in the work party. Anyhow, so that was my attempt, pretty poor. But then we were, had a secret radio in our hut and it was in a broom that sat in the corner of the hut and was inside a broom and it sat there for as long as I can remember. Long before I got there and I presume long after I left, it sat there. And a couple of RAF wireless operators had built it and I understand that they had a German soldier who had broken the rules at some time or other and they were blackmailing him that they’d tell the commandant if he didn’t do this and didn’t do that and they, they got a valve for the radio. And they built it. I don’t know how but they, it’s claimed that. The two of them were pretty smart boys apparently. So at 9 o’clock every night they came up to listen to the BBC news. They weren’t in the hut with the, with the radio. I think that was sort of part of the security. They’d come up in the darkness which was quite risky and settled down. And about two hundred blokes would be on the watch for Germans, peering into the darkness. So, and they’d make a list. I’d write the list and the news down and that would go around all the English speaking huts. The French, I think, did their own thing. I don’t know but it wouldn’t have been much good in have a radio in French when nobody could speak French but and then that would go around. Somebody would take it around and then I believe the bloke in our hut used to eat the paper [laughs] most paper would burn but he used to eat it. I don’t know whether he was that hungry [laughs]. So we didn’t know what was going on, and towards the end we could hear the guns firing from, from, coming from the Russians in the east. And we could see the bombers flying in to bomb Berlin and Dresden. And we were about thirty kilometres from Dresden when the big raid occurred. And Dresden, as far as I can remember, burned for a week. They couldn’t control it. And it used to flame up during the night and the smoke would be there during the day, black smoke. It was the best part of a week before they controlled it. Then the Russians overran the camp. Just to finish off quickly the Russians overran the camp, Zhukov’s army, he was the big noise in the Russian army. He over rode the camp and he said to our man — we had what we called a Man of Confidence who was our man between us and the Germans. And he was a Canadian who spoke German. And he acted as a Man of Confidence and was very good at it too. And the Germans accepted him and he accepted the Germans. So he was telling us what was happening. And then all of a sudden the Germans disappeared one night completely. We didn’t know it, never knew anything about it. And they disappeared one night. We’d wake up in the morning, we used to have roll call at 7 o’clock or half past 7. Something like that, every, and we had to get out of bed and stand in the cold and they’d count them. Some blokes would say we’d trick the Germans. We used to have five in a row and then they’d gradually move together and he’d count four. Then you’d have to have a recount. And then the next recount they’d move out the other way and he’d got seven. But there used to be arguments in the camp as to whether we should do it or not because blokes were shivering. But it’s the only thing we could do [laughs] It was really funny but it was a bit annoying in the cold. Anyhow, the Russians were in control and they said what food in the camp was yours and you feed yourselves and then you’re on your own. And this was from the Russian Army. So we did use the food in the camp and then of course we had to go outside and the Russians were sort of in control of the camp but you just had to be very careful not to annoy them otherwise they’d shoot you. I went out one time to get a couple of chooks. Get a chook anyhow, to cook. We had nothing to eat. And I went out with three other blokes and I went out looking for the chooks. And one went, I went one way and another went the other way and I struck up with a Russian who — I heard the bolt of his rifle change. And he was shoving at me and that and I‘ve got my hands in the air and I got a chook in one hand. And when, and then I made a bolt for it. He was as full as a goog. He was drunk. He couldn’t, could hardly stand to hold a rifle and I thought well it’s now or never. So I made a bolt down one lane and back to where the other blokes were. And all I could say they tell me was, ‘Ruski, Ruski. They’re coming they’re coming.’ We rushed down to the cellar. By the time we got down to the cellar I’d got a dead chook. I’d strangled it [laughs] poor old chook. But we enjoyed him. In due course we enjoyed him and the Russian never came near us. So we had, then I decided that’s enough for me. I’m going. The Americans were coming up from the west. The Russians were already coming east and they were saying, ‘You’ve got to stop in the camp.’ The Russians were. But five other blokes and myself that I talked into, air force blokes. I said, ‘I’m going if anybody’d like to come with me. And I want you to come with me because I’m scared stiff.’ And we went and we got out of the camp and we went to a place called Riesa. It was a little village on the River Mulde. I can remember those clearly. I can remember. And the war ended whilst we were in Riesa. And the Russians fired up the main street and they ran their tanks straight through houses where blokes took a liking to. And they fired heavy artillery shells. I don’t know where they landed but they certainly were too close. And by then we had commandeered a unit on the second floor so we could watch the river. And we were waiting for the Yanks to sort of cross the river. And we waited and we waited for three or four days and we decided to — some were the other blokes said that we would pinch a boat but nobody knew where a boat was. We’ll make a raft. Nobody had a hammer, nails or anything. And then it was decided to swim it and I thought, Oh. Swim it, bloody half a mile wide. And all I’ve got is have I learned to swim twenty five yards. Anyhow, we saw an American patrol approaching to this broken down railway bridge that had been, I don’t know who did it, probably the Germans to stop the Russians from following. And we made for this. We thought, oh we’ll make, I don’t know how we were going to get across but we made for it and the American blokes came and they luckily had a Russian interpreter and the Russians came up behind us and we’re on the edge of the bridge and the Russians are here. And the Americans were off. They’d stop for thirty forty metres away from the bridge. Candidly I thought the third world war was going to break out any time and we were the meat in the sandwich. But it didn’t. All of a sudden, I don’t know what happened but the Americans brought one of those tanks that had a span on it that they put over and we went over that on our hands and knees. I was dead scared that somebody had rocked the thing but [laughs] and I’d fall into the river and think that’s the end. And we were taken by the Americans to Leipzig. From Leipzig they in due course flew us to Brussels. We got out of the plane and were told to lay in the grass in the sunshine in Brussels. And the Lancasters arrived and it was beautiful. It was good. I’d never travelled in a Lancaster before. And I was the only one with a jacket, a recognisable jacket. And I got invited by the pilot to take the pilot’s dickie seat and the rest of the blokes who were air force had to be [laughs] down the back, being pushed further. No seats or anything. So landed in England and I was crook. I got shoved in the hospital and eventually came home.
AP: How did you find after that rather —
JFSC: How did I —?
AP: After that rather amazing experience how did you find getting back to civilian life?
JFSC: Getting [unclear][pause] I don’t know what I’m doing here. I’m getting [pause] No. It doesn’t seem to be working. I don’t know what that means.
AP: You don’t know what that means. After that rather amazing experience how did you find re-adjusting to normal civilian life?
JFSC: I had a job to go back to which helped a lot. And I came back and I did miss folks who were in the camp with me a bit in that they were ahead of me. I went in the hospital in England for a couple of weeks. Ten days. A couple of weeks, I think. I can’t remember. And they moved on whereas I was stationery. And eventually I sort of had and I didn’t have the crew that I’d been used to because they’d moved on. And they were four weeks, fortnight in front of me I think, never caught up with them at any stage. But I made, I met up with some other blokes that I knew. Eventually knew or got to know. And I think I handled it alright. I knew I was going home in due course, the shipping problem. There was a shipping problem in England immediately after the war. They, the Brits did the right thing. They were trying to move all the foreign troops out of the country. And they had thousands upon thousands of Americans there. And French. And every, every nation under the sun was there. They were all saying the, ‘When are you taking me home?’ attitude. And I had to wait until they had a ship load of Aussies going home, which I did do. But by that time I’d settled down in England. The company I worked for in Melbourne had an office in London so I got in touch with the London office and they gave me a job for a period of time which meant that I had to get permission from the RAAF to take it, naturally which I did do. And I took this job with William Horton and Co which was my company. And I worked for them and I came home in late November ’45, or December ’45. I’m not certain what date. But that job helped considerably I’m sure and I got double pay which was very nice. The company gave me pay and of course I was getting back pay from the air force [laughs] and nobody minded. They knew. The company said they knew I was being paid. And I said, ‘Oh yeah. I wouldn’t give that up. Actually the air force should give me more money than any company.’ [laughs] So then I was discharged in April ’46, I think. And I haven’t had any trouble. I’ve had a good family right from the beginning. I wasn’t married. I married in some years. Not — Glenne is my second wife and I’ve been married to Glenne for twelve years. And I was married to my first wife for sixty one I think years. I was married in ’49 and she died in 2003 I think. So that’s quite some time isn’t it? So I’ve had a very happy time in my life and that’s all helped. And I’ve got a good family. I’ve got one brother left now and he’s sixty. And I’ll be sixty three next month. And he’s sixty. And we’re funny thing just this is nothing to do — with my father was in the First World War. Can I — ?
AP: Yeah. Keep going. Please.
JFSC: Was in the First World War and won the Military Medal on Anzac Cove. And wore the Military Medal at the time when he was moved to Flanders. And he was recommended and the story over there recommended for the DCM. And everything went forward by two CO’s. And he never actually collected it. And he never did anything about it. And Paddy, my brother and I are now fighting for it. And it’s been going for five years.
AP: Oh yeah.
JFSC: And it’s all in writing by two separate CO’s, nothing to do with us. We think that he was awarded it and then the war in September 19 what ‘18 and the war ended in November and they said — right that’s all finished. Whoof. Everything entered the junk yard. But that could have happened. But now, it’s quite interesting. I’ll show you the latest letter I’ve got from them. Just at the top. No. No. No. Yeah. There.
AP: That one.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Oh yes.
JFSC: Yeah. You can read that letter and that’s the position that it’s in.
[pause]
AP: Still learning.
JFSC: Still there. Yeah. That’s Paddy reckons he knew the CO but I said, ‘You can’t put that in the same letter. He’ll think we’re bribing him.’
AP: Another one.
JFSC: Yeah. So that’s just aside.
AP: Yeah. So I was actually going to ask whether you had any family in the first world war so that explains that side.
JFSC: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: So I guess that also explains why you —
JFSC: Yeah, certainly. I’d like you to read that.
AP: Yeah. Certainly.
JFSC: That, to me, is the most important document I’ve got. But that’s the photo of him with the Military Medal but then below that his —
AP: Yeah, very nice.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: I guess that explains why you joined up and why you wanted to join the air force and not the army.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Most of all because of your father’s experience.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Alright. One last question before we wrap up. For you what is Bomber Command’s legacy and how do you want to see it remembered?
JFSC: How do I — ?
AP: How do you want to see Bomber Command remembered?
JFSC: I think they were the most amazing blokes I have ever met and likely to meet because it was a dicey situation there and yet they all took it in their stride. I’m sure that there were some who reneged but I never heard of them. I never saw them or heard of them on my squadron. But I don’t know. And blokes that I know even now that, even though I didn’t know them during the war years like for instance Laurie Larmar and jack Powell who was actually in Stalag 4B at the same time as I was but I didn’t know him. But I know he was because I’ve got a list of blokes who were in Stalag 4Band he’s among them. And also he’s told me stories and they’re still an amazing lot of fellas. And in the crew I had two Englishmen — the rear gunner and the engineer. And all engineers were English because Australians didn’t, didn’t train engineers, flight engineers. And the result is that we had an English engineer. And they’re both dead now. And their father was Australian. And I kept in touch with them but they all died of natural causes I’ll put it then. And they were still the same. There was, I’d ring them up and they’d ring them me. I think I did most of the ringing but they, the last one to die was the wireless operator and he died in a rest home in New South Wales fairly recently within the last twelve months. And he was still the same wireless operator that I flew with and anytime I went to Sydney I always went to see him. He used to drive me mad at times because he thought he was still in the air force [laughs]. But he was, he was the only officer in the crew too. Not that we took any notice of him. He had no authority really. Maybe on the ground but he didn’t in the air. Patrick was the authority and I admire you and admire the people that are doing something for. I said to Glenne, my wife, ‘I wish that I could do something.’ I said Laurie and I sat on seats while the people who did all the work around us weren’t in Bomber Command but they did so much for Bomber Command. And the pair of us just sat on seats. And she said, ‘But how old’s Laurie?’ I said, ‘Oh he’s ninety odd.’ And she said, ‘Do you expect him to carry tables or something?’ She said, ‘You’d be silly enough to carry one.’ I said, ‘No but I didn’t.’ So that’s I don’t know whether that shows you anything or not but it’s a marvellous organisation. I do belong to bomber Command in England. And I belong up here in Australia. Yeah. That’s —
AP: Bomber Command Association UK.
JFSC: It’s yeah the RAF really.
AP: Yeah.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: So you’re still part of the active veteran community if you like.
JFSC: Well, yes. I am when I can be.
AP: I think I saw you on the television news once selling, selling for Legacy or something at [unclear] fields.
JFSC: Yes. That’s right. I’m all for it, and whether anyone will attest to that or if I can give some help. Now one of the —
[pause]
JFSC: Can you imagine how blokes were in the Lancaster as they stand and this is what happens to them when they crash.
AP: Oh wow.
JFSC: Harsh what those pieces.
AP: Of your aircraft.
JFSC: Where they come from.
AP: Wow.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: Hits the purse strings.
JFSC: Yeah. I’ve been to that site. I don’t know where the other half is.
AP: Wow.
JFSC: Yeah. And they were all Bakelite.
AP: Yeah
JFSC: Today they would be plastic.
AP: [unclear] That’s astonishing.
JFSC: Yeah.
AP: That’s very cool
JFSC: Somebody said what are they to you? I said I couldn’t put a value on them. They meant so much to me.
AP: Yeah. I can very much appreciate that.
JFSC: But [pause] you know it doesn’t kill me the thought of it but that I went to the Germans [pause] got a photo of them there, no blow me I must have taken it down. Got bits of [pause] I went to Germany with Glenne really to see where the plane crashed and where Patrick was buried originally. I’ve been three times to Germany. And I went and I met Germans. Two or three Germans who were — I suppose one was a detective. One was a real estate bloke. One was a railway man. One was a fireman later on. So who were interested and I’ve got their names and I’ve got their photo. If you want them you’re welcome to it — who were interested in chasing every plane that came down around Frankfurt. The area around there I think, more or less, home towns. They didn’t live in Frankfurt but they lived outside Frankfurt and then they started a little museum which they’ve got the tail plane of my plane and there’s no doubt about it because on the tail plane on the inner part of it is 274 and the 7 is the German — not the German 7 but the English 7. And they sort of had part and parcel of just the big tail plane and they took me to where the plane came down and that’s where they came from. And then they spoke, one in particular spoke very good English. And he asked me would like to see where Patrick Edwards was buried originally. And I said yes. I took the codes from my hand and they took me to the original site. And that was in the Belterhausen cemetery. And after the war the RAF went through Germany and [pause] what do they call it whatever the word is took in turn all airmen in a Commonwealth grave. And Pat is now in the Commonwealth governments. I think that’s what it’s called. There’s about three thousand airmen buried in —
AP: Reichwald or something.
JFSC: Not the town, town below. My memory’s just fading a bit.
AP: Hanover. Hanover.
JFSC: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where he’s buried.
[pause]
JFSC: One of the bravest men I ever knew.
AP: On that note I think I’ll turn the recording off. Thank you very much Jim. I really appreciate it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ACahirFS160608
PCahirJ1601
Title
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Interview with Francis Shamus "Jim" Cahir
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:08:33 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2016-06-08
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Cahir grew up in Australia. He originally joined the army but later was transferred to the Royal Australian Air Force. He flew operations as a mid upper gunner with 466 Squadron. His aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war. after several failed escape attempts, he was eventually liberated by the Russians.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Oberursel
Poland--Tychowo
Germany--Riesa
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
466 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bale out
crewing up
Dulag Luft
faith
fear
final resting place
Halifax
killed in action
mine laying
prisoner of war
RAF Leconfield
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/285/3441/AKellyDV151201.1.mp3
c0fb4d38bd22cffa7ea449bfcb4e86d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/285/3441/PKellyDV1501.1.jpg
f224be1a53680007b94c1c2de6449683
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kelly, Dennis Vaughn
Dennis Vaughn Kelly
Dennis V Kelly
Dennis Kelly
D V Kelly
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items concerning Flying Officer Dennis Vaughn Kelly (- 2019, 418751 Royal Australian Air Force) who served as a wireless operator on 467 Squadron Lancasters. His aircraft was shot down in July 1944 and crashed in France after which he evaded capture and returned to the United Kingdom. Collection consist of an oral history interview, telegrams, official letters and photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Denis Vaugh Kelly and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-01
2016-01-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kelly, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Des Kelly who was a 467 Squadron wireless operator and evader in World War Two. The interview is taking place in Denis’s house in Carrum Downs in South East Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell and it is the 1st of December 2012 [2015?]. Des, I thought we’d start from the beginning. Can you tell us something about your early life, how and where you grew up and what you did before ‒?
DK: Firstly, I grew up in [unclear] Valley and I went to a school there that was so small they had only two rooms in the school and they had four rows of desks. The small room had grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 grade with one teach and the big thing had 4,5,6,7, and 8 in that so that’s how small it was. I left there after I’d outgrown it and went to Box Hill High School for boys, high school, and then we went, we moved down to Cheltenham so I then went to Murray [?] High School and that’s where I finished my ‒. I was house captain, football captain, cricket captain and myself I was a prefect and we left all of that and I ‒. My father had a problem. He had 22,000 volts through him, he was an electrical engineer with [unclear] and he was immobilised for over twelve months and in those days there was no workers’ con [?] so our existence was pretty ‒, so anyway when I was grown I left and went and got a job and that was a job with [unclear] wines, spirits and grocery thing at er ‒. I can’t think of the name at the moment. They’re in Luke [?] Street in Melbourne. I applied to join the Air Force as soon as I was eighteen. I had a quarrel with my father whether I’d join or not but I didn’t get called up ‘til nine months later and because of the big gap I was told to go to the post office and learn Morse code. I didn’t do that because I wasn’t interested. I wanted to be a pilot, a fighter pilot. Anyhow, I was called up on the 19th June 1942 and went down to er, ‒, instead of the nice close one at Victoria, I went to Victor Harbour in South Australia, from there I went to Ballarat for the radio course. I was very hostile at not being picked for a pilot but they told me I had no depth perception. I didn’t believe that. I thought it was a lame excuse. I’ll come round to that later so I did six months at Ballarat doing radio course and then I went down to Sale and did my gunnery course down there and I didn’t have very much time after that when I was sent to Brisbane on a train. We got onto a tramp steamer called Eclipse [?] Fontagne [?] which was a Dutch one. We left from Brisbane, took nineteen days to get to Los Angeles because we were zig-zagging all over the place hoping not to be shot, not shot down, torpedoed. That was a pretty hazardous sort of journey because we were all packed in the hold, we were in the hold, all our hammocks in the hold, and that wasn’t much fun for those at the back. There was some smart bloke, I don’t know how he knew, because as soon as we got up to get to the ship he rushed off and got a crown and anchor thing and he made thousands because were paid in American dollars and anyhow we arrived in San Francisco on a train, on a Pullman train and none of us had ever seen that. We had an African American for each car and he made our beds and meals and he got our supplies where we stopped [unclear] on the way. We went right down to New Mexico round to ‒, and up to ‒, and we ended up at Camp Mile Standish in er, it’s north of New York, Mile Standish, yeah that was in Boston. There we were supposed to wait. We were told not to go out. But a few of us, four of us, got through a hole in the fence, got on a train and went to New York for two days and we didn’t sleep anywhere and we came back. Eventually, we were put on I think it was the Queen Mary, I’m pretty sure it was it was the Queen Mary, and we went over to England. We landed in Grangemouth [?] in Scotland and that was a horrendous voyage because it was just full of Americans and they were sleeping in the aisles. We had twelve of us in a really little cabin but for some reason, I don’t know how we were picked, each of us were picked to have a go at a submarine, to try and see if we could see a submarine and that was ridiculous, we were up where the captain was and we were just staring out, the seas were absolutely enormous. I’d never been so frightened even, actually when we got to Grangemouth [?] the bows of the Queen Elizabeth [?] was dented from the waves. From there we went down to Brighton and Brighton because of earlier the Germans coming over at the other place, I can’t remember the name of the place, and they shot it up at lunch time, so we were on watch on the top of the Hotel Metropol. Nothing came so then I started learning all over again. They sent me to North Wales, to Caernarvon, to start learning all about radios and what planes there were and general information about the RAF, ‘cause that’s the thing, the RAF, then we started doing all our individual things and we all came to a place called Lichfield and we all were there and a most ‒, I’m sure you must have heard this before, a most amazing thing happened, a pilot walked round and watched what the [unclear] were and asked, ‘Do you have a crew?’ In my case it was Tom Davies and I said, ‘No, I haven’t got a crew.’ He said, ‘Well, you have now. You’re wireless air-gunner with me,’ he says and he selected the crew. Now you wouldn’t believe it but we all clicked. It was a tremendous crew we had. Er ‒, we had a rear gunner Col Allen, he was the bloke that was shot up when we got shot down. We on our ‒, there’s some dispute about this and let me be clear on how our discharge certificate it got that we did thirty operations, actually Tom ‒, the crew did thirty operations, er ‒, we only did twenty-eight, Tom did two things, and I missed one because I’d been injured on a flight and they made me stop in hospital and so I missed a trip. But then it started and [laugh] we made a terrible start. Tom had done two dummy runs (that we called them) with other pilots see so he had two ops under him and so we got in a plane and went off down the runway and Tom couldn’t control the bomber. We were bouncing the thing and we tried to get up in that plane but they wouldn’t let us. They said, ‘It’s too late now,’ we’d never catch up, so Tom had something, we all did something that we got a name for but Tom was a poof pilot, he couldn’t fly the plane. Oh we ‒, before that, we went on a ‒, dumping leaflets over Paris. That didn’t count. Germans were [unclear] and then we got on and we did all these operations. About the time ‒, now about a few weeks before we were doing our last flight (which we didn’t know it would be) our mid-upper gunner got appendicitis, he lived in town [?], so he wasn’t with us when we got shot down. There was a Canadian, who was a flying officer, and he had a DFC, we never knew why. Anyhow, on 19th July we set off for a place called Revigny, or Revigny is what the French called it, and we had dropped our bombs and we’d just turned round making for home and then bang! We were hit from the tail and underneath so we guessed it was one of these upward flying cannons ‘cause none of us saw it. All my equipment and Mark the navigator’s equipment just exploded. I didn’t have to light [?] the rice paper thing ‘cause it all went up. Tom said, ‘Bail out! Bail out!’, so I had to get down on my back and I pulled the mid upper gunner’s legs to let him know I was out and I had the shock of my life when I saw him, nineteen year-old gunner, he was dead, and they always said he was the hardest to get out so that’s why I went down to help him but I couldn’t. So Tom was saying, ‘Bail out! Bail out!’ So I got to the edge, looked over, and we were at twenty-one thousand feet, and I looked down through the door and thought ‘No!’ by this time I had something [unclear] my parachute and my jacket, my bomber jacket, was smouldering, so I went to step out and then I remembered never [emphasis] step out of a Lanc, you gotta dive, and at my ‒, in effect I felt as though I was diving, diving off the roof of a high American, New York place. Anyhow, I’d had my hand ripped ‘cause we had a lot of feedback from the French, saying we find that the [unclear] tearing all their clothes ‘cause they got the D ring on the wrong side, ‘cause you picked that up and you put it on upside down, the D ring, so I grabbed the D ring before I got ‒. That dive I’ll never forget. Anyhow, next I knew I was falling, I was smoking and I pulled the rip cord at the exact second, [unclear] time it must have been, I hit the ground and it lifted me up and down when I hit the ground and flicked me then I came down. It did all the damage when it flicked me when I came down the second time when [unclear] but there I was and I just couldn’t believe it and I don’t know if it was lack of oxygen. It couldn’t have been the explosion of the ‘plane ‘cause the plane crashed and there’s [unclear] in there. Anyhow so I was frightened [emphasis]. I knew I couldn’t walk. They said I’d broken my spine, my legs just wouldn’t work, so I pulled myself up against a tree and sat there and then I heard a dog barking. What happened, it was Bill McGowan who’d gone another way and he was going through a farmhouse and the dog barked at him and I had ‒. You’ve probably never seen “The Hound of the Baskervilles”. It was a big German dog grabbing his throat and I was scared witless then, no doubt about it, but then it calmed down after that. [Unclear] and my wife’s stuck at home, wouldn’t know I’m here, she’ll think I’m dead, she’ll get the telegram, I can’t do anything about it, and I don’t know how long I was there, it couldn’t have been more than an hour or two and then I heard a crash, crash, through the bush and I thought that’s no one sneaking up, it’s only one person, it might be another, so I yelled out and it was Peter, the flight engineer, so I cried, ‘Thank goodness there’s someone here.’ We sat talking and about twenty minutes later we heard the same crash noise through the bush, and it was Mark Edgeley. So the three of us sat down to decide and I said, ‘Well look I can’t walk, you know, leave me and if you give me an undertaking that if you get back to tell my wife that I was alive at this stage.’ I didn’t know what was going to happen after that so they went off and the next day I decided I’d got to do something. I couldn’t walk so it was marshy ground fortunately and so I was dragging along [unclear] I thought it was, you know, five or six days, five out of [unclear], when I got back I checked with the French people, it was nothing like that. But I was pulling myself along in this ooze. I was drinking this horrible swamp water and then it came to a canal and I thought, ‘Right, this is good,’ and it had steep banks on either side, you know, so I got in the water and started backstroke and there was a long curve in the canal and when I came round ‒, actually now I know it was right next to where I was eventually hiding, there was two gendarmes there. We were told not to trust them so I turned round and tried to get out of the canal. Well, if you’ve ever tried to get out of a pool without using your legs, and this was a grassy slope, I lost my fingernails, I eventually got there and started pulling myself along and eventually came to a road and I started crossing the road and I just passed out. The Harley Street people said it was mind over matter. Your mind said, ‘You’re safe now.’ So that’s when I was really stuck. A Frenchman came along on a bike. It was early morning, he was going to work and the next thing I knew this Frenchman was pushing me with his foot on the road and I looked at him, I said, ‘Je suis Anglais, parachutist, Australien, [unclear],’ and he pulled out a bottle and I thought it would be wine. It wasn’t. It was beer. It was the only bottle of beer I’ve seen in France even when I went back I’d never seen one. But I drank the lot. Anyhow, he rolled me over into the ditch at the side of the road and off he went. What I didn’t call him, the bloody French, they’re cowards, they’ve never won anything, you know. And I thought, ‘I’m done, I can’t get out of this ditch. I’m gonna die there,’ and that was frightening. However, that night, which seemed to be days to me, but it was that night, he came back and lifted me out, he had two other people there, they put me on a bike, no, before they put me on the bike they stripped my uniform and gave me French civilian clothes, then put me on the bike with just the two legs just hanging down, took me down to a place which I now know was this Pargny-sur-Saulx and they put me in the lock-keeper’s house. What I saw of the canal was they used it going ‒, the canal went right through the German ‒ and there was a little lock there and they locked up with a small key and I couldn’t speak French and he couldn’t speak English but they took me in and then finally a couple of days later they got a doctor to come and see me. And the doctor said, ‘No, he’s got to go to hospital,’ and, you know, this French chap said, ’No, no, don’t let him go,’ and I was frightened to go to hospital ‘cause that meant Germans, so that was it, so they didn’t then. Now, I stuck with them, I’m not quite sure, maybe two or three weeks and then one night the French underground came for me, put me in a little box on the back of the trailer, the box trailer on the back of the bike, just a small one with bike wheels on and bent me over and tied me around and then put sacks over the top of me. I didn’t know where I was but the plane had been [unclear] it wasn’t very nice. However, they dropped me in a house and I got carried upstairs. This house, I still don’t know where it was, there was a space with steps to the room and they told me, ’Don’t ever try to open this door unless they’re coming for food because this dog will go for you.’ Anyhow, it must have been an American house at one stage ‘cause there was writing there, writing to America, and I never saw anyone from that day to this. They’d bring my food up and put it outside the door, then leave the dog at the top of the stairs and I could open the door and take the food. That was alright but I tried to open the door once when the food wasn’t there and it came roaring. Then a little later ‒. Time? I’d got no idea of time. A French, two French chaps came. You know, the [unclear] had a charcoal burner at the back of it, and they couldn’t speak English and I couldn’t speak French but they just told me I was going from this place and I didn’t mind that. This place wasn’t like Victoria [?]. We were talking to each other even though we couldn’t understand. But no one else, I was just isolated in this place. Anyhow, they took me out. It was late evening in summer and they put me in this cart and we were going along, I didn’t know where, and there was a whole load of Lancasters parked on each side of the road. The Germans had put, you know, wrecks that had been shot down. I thought, ‘Gee, that doesn’t look too well.’ And then just before it got dark there was a chap, he was in a sort of tractor, a very old-fashioned tractor, chugging along trying to cultivate his fields and then there was an American fighter pilot, he turned round and he saw him and he came down and blasted him up and these French [unclear] when I got to this and told me what had happened. They reckon the RAF, the RAF, had found out that I was going and this bloke ‒, and so they sent an American plane to shoot him up and he shot it up alright, killed the bloke. Anyhow I ended up, it was dark, in a hospital and I looked round, got off the bike, and I went up the stairs until I got to the caretaker’s room and then they put me in there and said ‘Bonjour.’ And off they went and this place there was a Frenchman and he had just got married, he was wanted by the Germans. He had a wanted sign there and they left me there for ten days. Now we got one meal in the morning and one at night. There was kerosene tin that was it our toilet for both of us. And I felt completely out of it and then the same people came and took me in the car and they were saying, you know, it was going to be goodbye for me, and we were going through a place, which I now believe was Vitry-le-Francois and we were passing a car getting towed the other way. And the blokes that had me were going, going crazy, you know, at the end of that street, they stopped and got me out, knocked on the door and a chap came out and he was a hunchback, completely with a hunchback, and they pointed, told him and pointed at me, they’d be back at 10 o’clock at night, they’d be back at 10 o’clock to pick me up. They never did because what all the fuss was about, that I was supposed to be taken back to ‒, as a whole lot of us were being flown back. Now I understand, according to the French, the Germans waited ‘til that plane was taking off and shot it down. Now whether that was true or not I don’t know but I [emphasis] never got there. This bloke, I slept there for two nights, he had a young baby and I mean a young baby, it wouldn’t be more than a month or two, he couldn’t speak but he started going like this and so I got the message so I started out. I didn’t have any idea how but I wanted to get back to Victors [unclear]. Anyhow I ran into a Yank, and at least I got to talk to somebody, and he said he’d been in a Thunderbolt and was shot down by an enemy 109 and they both landed in adjacent paddocks and he said, ‘I went and shot the German.’ And he said he’d been there almost nine months. So I said to myself, ‘He’s kept out of trouble for nine months.’ Instead of thinking, ’Well, what the hell’s he been doing for nine months?’ Anyhow, he’d gone what we called ‘a cropper’, yeah. When we were there he’d heard guns going and he’d go towards the guns [laugh] that way. Anyhow, this first day we met there was a small what we’d call café/sweetshop and they had some bread and we went in there together and bang! Two Germans came in. They just saluted. We were just saluting but they heard me talking and they heard Ted so we were taken out in some place, I haven’t the foggiest idea where it was and they took us back to this place where we were interviewed by, what I believe was, an old school teacher who could speak a bit of English and he explained to us that we were spies now ‘cause we were in civilian clothes, we were going to be sent to Berlin to the Gestapo to find out what we knew. And we got on alright and they had us in a small room locked in. And Ted said, ‘You know, we got to get out of this somehow.’ You know I was having visions of our fingernails being pulled off. Anyhow, the following night this chap said, the schoolmaster as I called him, he said, ‘Right, you’re going to be taken to the station,’ in the night of course because they didn’t dare try the trains during daytime, and we’d be taken to Berlin. Ted said, ’We gotta do something about this,’ so listen [laugh], we got there on the station, believe it or not, one of the guards we reckoned he was with one of the girls, he went round the side, but he went. Ted looked at me, didn’t say anything, but I knew he was going to kick the other guard in the balls. He went down and he got his gun and shot him through the head and he said, ‘This is how stupid the Germans are.’ The other guard poked his head round the corner and when he looked that way he shot him through the head. Well Ted [unclear], now I can’t find out anything, and I’ll tell you a bit later about where that was or what happened. Anyhow we got away. We were both hungry so we watched the first farmhouse we came to, we stopped in the barn, slept in the barn, and then about two more days later we came to a farmhouse which we was delighted enough to see and there a woman came out and Ted said, ‘Look you go and talk to this woman,’ and I said, ’Well, you’re coming along too.’ He said, ‘Yeah,’ and we talked to her and finally we got our handcuffs taken off. The farmer got an old chisel, took them off, so there again we got involved with the underground. I don’t want to go into that but Ted went one way and I went another and finally I got, I can’t say picked up, I was ‒, one night I heard a plane flying over and over and over, there was another one behind it, I knew ‒, as it turned out it was a Stirling, it was a four engine, I could see a single aircraft, and they dropped something, it hit across the wires, it was huge this thing and then this thing came to ground, so I was going over towards it and I heard a voice saying, ‘You German bastard, you stop where you are.’ [Laugh] I turned round and answered, ‘I’m an Aussie!’ He said, ‘Oh go on, talk.’ I was convinced he knew I was an Aussie, and that explosion was they were dropping a jeep for the underground and it hit the wire. That’s why the bloke there was SAS, that’s why they were there, ‘cause they were waiting for this. Anyhow, one night when they were out, being a wireless operator, they wouldn’t let me into their little bivouac, er, I guess because of what I might see but I knew where it was so, anyhow, when they were out I found the radio and I sent a message to my squadron telling them who I was, who the crew was, and where we got shot down and when. They never answered and I never knew whether they got that but I found out later from my wife that the federal police came to her in Elwood and told her I was safe at that stage but still behind enemy lines. In the meantime she thought she was a widow. Anyhow they, they finally got with the French underground again and without going into a lot of things they finally collected about six of us and two, no three of them, were crew from my crew, and I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me that I ‒, you know, they said, ‘How did you get on with your back,’ and I said, ‘Well I learned to walk.’ So they took us back, no they didn’t, we were in this place, I got a photo of the barn there. We were all collected, they were Flemish people, we were there for a day and a half, and finally they ‒, we were waiting, we’d been told in a roundabout way that it was just a holding place for us, but then we heard guns, and we said, ’Geez that’s funny.’ Because it was real firing so we went up to the road and it was General Patton’s mob, so we flagged them down and got on a tank and one of the officers, I’m not sure if it was Patton, it probably wasn’t, but he shouted, ‘Get them bloody Frenchmen off the tank!’ I said, ‘We’re not French, we’re Aussies.’ So because I’d done some gunnery I was standing up on the gun turret of the tank and we went all way down to Nancy, that was all day, and I’d never had it before but my face was so badly wounded it was yellow skin. I thought it was great standing up and each side there were pockets of German soldiers. He wasn’t worried [unclear] the Yanks would pick those up. Anyhow, so from there they sent us back to Paris and in Paris we were put on a plane back to England and we went through MI5 or MI6, I wasn’t sure what it was, and I was pissed off by this time and they said to me, ‘What happened?’ and I said, ‘I got injured, the people looked after me.’ I gave them the names of the people that looked after me in Pargny-sur-Saulx, ‘cause I knew that. Though I never knew anyone. I told them their names because they were making a reference in case that happened again. They were ‒, so they sent me back to intelligence and I was pissed off. There was a pilot officer there who was insisting that I account for the revolver that I’d taken, typical, he was what we called a nine day wonder, you know, he’d never fired a shot in it and he really pissed me off and so when we went in, I went, we all went through, but I went to [unclear], and I just said, ‘I got shot down, I hurt my back.’ Finally we got together again and picked up, so alright, the next morning I woke up and I couldn’t walk, just couldn’t walk, so they [telephone rings], yes, where was I? I woke the next morning and couldn’t walk and so they got an ambulance and they sent me all the way up to a place called Holloway [?] which was, that was an exclusive girls school, beautiful grounds and all the place was being used as a hospital. There were blokes there that had various accidents and treatments, all Air Force blokes, and they kept on telling me I could walk and I said, ‘No I can’t.’ Anyhow, so finally they told me that if I walk they’d have me on a train that led to London and we’d be taken to the States. That didn’t happen and so I was sent to this place and finally they came and gave me about ten or twelve days on my own in New York in a hotel, which they paid for, and finally they flew me to Los Angeles, and I got on a medicine plane, I can’t think of the name but it was well-known, passenger thing with the [unclear] and they ‒, with a lot of others, we were going back to Australia. We went fairly straight too and we landed in New Guinea. They did some trade there and went off and came back again and they picked us up, went to Queensland, Brisbane. We were there a few days and then came back to Melbourne, then got a medical certificate. In the meantime when I got there they later told me I wasn’t a warrant officer, they told me my commission had come through just before I got shot down and so I wasn’t a warrant officer, I was a pilot officer, but then from then on I had to go to a psychologist. You may have seen it and it’s only just come up again but years ago I saw that photo of a girl naked running, you know, from the Vietnam War and that upset me at the time. Then a few months ago when they started advertising they were doing the Vietnam War on the TV and I saw it and then I was really crying and I woke up the next morning and I felt that I’d done that to the girl, you know, now I look back and I know it wasn’t bombs, it was napalm. Anyhow, so I went to a psychologist and I’m still going. I’ve had eight trips and I’ve got two more to go and then have a break because she’d broken the cycle. Well I turned then, that girl that I imagined that while dropping the bombs on Germany, I’d dropped the bombs on that girl. I got two more things to go and that should be it because I’m not having that dream. When I first came back I had to see one because I was dreaming that I was in the plane on fire, that was OK, but I couldn’t get out of the door and that was horrible and then I had another one, years later, another nightmare, that I had jumped out and was on fire but I was in a parachute and I was looking down and my legs were there and my head was there and so that’s when I went and saw her the first time and she’s got rid of that, now she’s two more goes and I’ll be rid of that. It’s horrifying how realistic it is, you know. In my dreams I was holding on to that little girl and I could feel her hand in mine and, you know, ‘I’ll look after you, I’ll look after you, don’t cry,’ and they took me to a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, psychologist. She said she had attended that girl and that girl now lives in Australia. That was rather interesting but that wrapped up, then I went to ‒, when they found out I was a pilot officer they gave me officer of the guard at the Melbourne Cricket Ground and there’s a whole lot of blokes like me that came back, aircrew, and they were getting all the night stuff and so on. I felt pretty crooked about that. Now there are prisoners there that had cells. One of the prisoners wanted to see the religious bloke (what do you call him?), the chaplain, and I said to the other bloke, ‘What happens there?’ He says, ‘They send him up, there’s no hat [?], send him up, and wait outside and bring him back.’ So I went up and this bloke says to the other two blokes, ‘Look, I’m going to be here quite a while, you know.’ So they went off to the NAAFI you see, we’d called it in England, having a cup of tea, biscuits and anyway this assistant programme manager came along and I saw this bloke, who had finished, and he waited for this guard to come, and I got into a lot of trouble over that. I went down and he said, ‘Who’s that? Are you the officer of the guard?’ I said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘I want you to come here,’ I said, ‘What rank are you?’ He said, ‘Flying Officer,’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not moving a bloody step mate. If you want to see me you come here and see me.’ Next thing I know the group captain who was in charge, in charge of the contingent [coughing], I went there and in my case I completely diverted him because, you know, I said, ‘I want a court martial,’ he said, ‘You want what?’ ‘I want a court martial because all us blokes coming back are getting all the dirty jobs and the blokes here who are permanent Air Force they’re getting home,’ and I said, ‘It’s not fair.’ So yeah, I was cut up but I got out of that. But while I was at the MCG I got a telegram saying, ‘Flight Lieutenant Kelly please report to the adjutant.’ I reported to the adjutant. What the hell? The bloke said ‒ I said, ‘I’m not a Flight Lieutenant’. He said, ‘Well, you’re going to be.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘They’re sending you to New Guinea to be a wireless connector.’ I didn’t know but you probably did, they decided here in Australia that all the ex-bomber command would go because they’d had Lancasters which they aren’t going to be able to fill, you know, in the air and that and I was supposed to be going up there and I said, ’I’m waiting for medical discharge,’ you know, and I was, and I got my medical discharge and then I had a pretty tough six years but then I came through [cough]. Now I’ve -, two years ago, I’m going to mention that when I landed I landed on my right foot and I lost three centimetres or three quarters of an inch in height [unclear] and there was nothing much they could do about that so I learned to use it and in here, in my bedroom now, I tripped and went into the wardrobe and smashed my hip. That was in 2012. Now when he finished that my knee was still short but not as short. Then just recently, this year in August, I had a new knee put in and I’m going round that now. I banged my car into a post here in the driveway and [unclear] I’m ninety-two so I got ‒, sold the car on e-bay, and got my licence back and then I applied to get my refund on my registration which I got and on my insurance which I got. But now I’m absolutely [unclear] without any [unclear]. We get fed down there. But we get one piece of fruit and it’s not great, it’s not very good fruit so I go down and I buy a lot of stuff. I don’t cook, I’ve got my microwave, but fresh bread and fruit and things like that, all the salt and pepper, chilli sauce, and all those things they’ve got down there um, but I’m starting to feel ‒, not my knee, my hip and so this afternoon I’ve got to go into Frankston to get an X-ray of it and I think if there’s anything wrong with my hip I’ll go back to the doctor that did my knee, not the doctor, because the doctor that did ‒, yes, my hip I had to go back after three months and get it done it again. But it, it is ‒, because I’m walking not very well, I get very puffed walking because I’m out of condition, but they sent me to see an occupational therapist to see me three weeks ago and she insisted I needed a scooter, a mobile scooter, she recommended it to the [unclear] but I gave her a ring two days ago and she hadn’t heard anything yet [unclear] ‘I recommended you get one,’ she says, so that’s about where I am.
AP: That’s a stunning story. That’s ‒, this is the ninth interview I’ve done so far and I’ve been sitting here for about an hour and I haven’t said a word. That’s an absolutely spellbinding story. If you’re still happy to go on I’d like to fill in a few details, particularly of your earlier service leading up to getting onto operations. You’ve told me, I think, in probably as much detail as you’re likely to about what happened in France. I’m still very interested about that but I’d like to cover some of the other stuff as well [unclear] I’ve lost that microphone. There you go.
DK: We were in France this year, a chap took us to a house and when we entered he said, ‘I was living in in that when you people bombed it,’ and he said, ‘You missed it.’ So then he sent that to Den and he said, ’My father died and I was looking through all the stuff and I found a book.’ And he said, ‘That’s the cover of the book.’ Now that’s exactly us, yes, so he’s posting the book out, all in French, and I’ll have to get it back.
AP: That’s fantastic. Alright, so I’ll give you this so we can keep going. We’ll have a look at all your stuff once we’ve finished having a chat I think. So why did you pick the Air Force?
DK: Because I wanted to fly and, you know, when they told me I had no depth of perception but I didn’t tell you one of the things that I forgot, Tom, who was our pilot, I used to ‒, he used to let me fly, and finally after many, many runs he gave me a chance to land. I landed. I then found out I’d got no depth of perception [laugh]. I landed sixteen feet above the runway and the tower [unclear], ‘Go round, do more, three circuits and [unclear] never know how you go on operations.’ Tom said, ‘You bastard. You’ll kill me.’ [Laugh] That’s the first time around. My son wanted to go in the Air Force, got checked, he’s got no depth perception, exactly the same as me. His [emphasis] son went and got his pilot’s licence, he didn’t go in the Air Force ‘cause he couldn’t afford the thing to become a commercial pilot, but so, but my son said he was colour blind too. I said, ‘I wasn’t colour blind.’ So that’s something. Now here’s something people love, it’s come to me from France. A chap who, he talked to us all the trip, did the interpretations and that, and he and I learnt a lot. All of a sudden that came back, now he’s done that himself, people have seen it, ‘You’re a poof’, [laugh], no, that’s PO [laugh]’ with the roundel and then that.
AP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
DK: With that writing and all. I thought that was very funny that was. I made it.
AP: Fantastic.
DK: If you open that there, just tip it out, it won’t hurt.
AP: It makes an interesting noise by the way [metallic background noises]. That’s outstanding. So just for the tape what I’m holding at the moment are three pieces of Denis’s Lancaster shot down. It looks like it was recovered from France in 1982. I think we need a photo of that later on. That’s unbelievable.
DK: And my son now, as a result of our trip, they gave me a big piece about that long and about that wide of the plane, all concertinaed, they sent it back to us so I gave it to my son because I’ve got nowhere to put it.
AP: Yeah. Very cool
DK: [unclear] big place.
AP: Very cool. You did your initial training schooling, you said, Victor Harbour.
DK: Victor Harbour.
AP: Can you tell me something about that?
DK: Yeah, it was very interesting because we all got on the Adelaide Express. Not all of us were going there. I was crooked [?] on it because I’d had initial training down at er, ‒
AP: Somers it was.
DK: Somers, yeah.
DK: Somers isn’t far away from where we’re sitting, by the way, just for the tape.
DK: Yeah, so I was crooked. Anyhow, we got the train over there and were going to Victor Harbour. We didn’t know where we were going. Victor Harbour didn’t mean anything to us. We got on a train and we got to this place and it was a big ‒, we called it the castle, it must have been a huge mansion and got there and then they told us we had to get our paillasses out. None of us really knew what a palliasse was and this regimental sergeant major warrant officer as it was said, ‘What are you doing? Fill your palliasses.’ So I says, ‘Where?’ [Laugh] ‘Oh, what have I got there?’ So we did it, and it poured like mad this first night and the water was running under the things. So that wasn’t so bad but we had rain but anything that you had on the ground got wet. But we had this raised floor so you could hear the water running under it. Yeah, so then we got our inoculation and I went there at four o’clock in the morning. I saw him, they found me swimming around in the mud just like I’d done in France, but I was delirious and they put me in hospital. That was the needles that I got that ‒. It didn’t give me that but it started ‒. I never had that again. But I had the mishap, of course, I missed four days in hospital. That was twenty-nine course so I ended up on thirty course.
AP: At Ballarat you were doing wireless training?
DK: Yes.
AP: That’s the first time you’d got on an aeroplane?
DK: Yes.
AP: What did you think of that?
DK: So it was quite funny because we were getting a message and having to hand the message to the pilot and the pilot took no notice. Half the time we passed that and we were on to the next one but we were learning how to do it. I thought that was quite good. The gunnery is the thing that got me. In a Fairy Battle, we stood up in the Fairy Battle, and had a go at shooting things from behind but, no, in a way I got into trouble in Ballarat. It actually helped me because we used to come [cough] and er ‒catch the train, a steam train it was, then we’d get back to Melbourne. We’d get on the train in the afternoon and get back to Melbourne and then had to go back Saturday night. And my wife and I [unclear] we arranged this, that I would wait outside the platform until the train went and then rush in and say, ’Oh my God.’ Because there was no train on Sunday so I knew I’d have Saturday, Sunday and Monday to get back. No, I didn’t care about the consequences. It was good and anyhow I’d rushed there and said, ’Oh I’ve missed the train!’ The RTO, railway transport officer, said, ‘I’ll get my car and catch it up and [unclear].’ ‘Oh Lord, no!’ [Laugh.] Anyhow it was too late and I walked in there, back there, and the guard getting in the cab on the Monday, and the guard had me there, took me in a ‒, it wasn’t a cell, a holding room, anyway I had to go to the CO and the CO gave me seven days kitchen duties and that meant getting up at five o’clock and get going [cough] excuse me, and late at night drying and washing greasy dishes and that. Anyhow after only two days an edict came through that no aircrew were to be given KO [?] kitchen duties. So I had the wireless so-and-so. I learnt more about this radio than the other things so I came out near the top. And I never would have done if it wasn’t for the extra so-and-so and it was something that worked in my favour.
AP: Very good. And you were married before you joined up?
DK: Yeah, I got married when I joined up. My father wouldn’t sign the thing. Finally when I was eighteen he said, ’You got it.’ I said, ‘Why dad?’ He said, ’Because you’ll be in the Air Force and likely to be killed and you’ll leave her alone and maybe with the baby.’ I said, ’No, come on.’ Finally, I said, ‘Look dad, if I’m old enough to go to war I’m old enough to get married,’ I said, ‘I’m eighteen, I can.’ He said, ‘Son, that’s a mistake,’ he said. Anyhow, of course when it finally came through my wife was pregnant. Well actually she’d had the baby and I was, you know, missing in action. [Unclear] knew it would happen. But I came back and it was good. So, there’s my wife.
AP: I think I saw the photo there.
DK: Yeah, that’s it.
AP: Great photo. That’s before you left Australia.
DK: No, that’s when I came back.
AP: When you came back, yeah, that’s a three or four year-old child there. Fantastic. Alright, so you’ve gone across, you’ve got your wing, your [unclear] in Australia and then you went across overseas.
DK: Yes, embarked.
AP: Yes, embarked. Yep and went across. What did you think of war-time England? General impressions.
DK: Well, it wasn’t much then because, you know, we were just the aircrew that had gone to Bournemouth, that’s where they shot it up and we’d gone to Brighton. At Brighton we er ‒, I was never much of a drinker of beer and one night we went out to a pub and the blokes, there were three of us, the other two were drinking, I said, ‘No.’ I’d had enough so I started walking back and I got belted up by a Canadian army bloke, two Canadians, no reason but from then on in Brighton every Canadian and Aussie had a go at each other. Now the thing I ‒, I didn’t see that much of it. When I flew in England I was surprised at how big it was. I didn’t think there was any space there, even now, but there’s plenty of space there, but er ‒, when the bombing came along that made some difference. I’ll tell you a funny story off the record, that Tom Davies always used to go to London for his leave and he was a great womaniser and beer and he got his chick, he said, in a hotel and he said, ‘We were both stark naked and one of the bombs hit the road and hit places on the other side and hit the front,’ and Tom said, ‘The next thing I know there was a [unclear] man poking his head up and saying, ‘Good God, you must be a Yank or an Aussie.’ He said, ‘We were both there, I didn’t know her name.’ He said he just picked her up. Their clothes were just gone, their bedclothes were, ‘We were singed,’ and he said, ’I don’t want that ‒.’ Oh he was ‒, I used to go because I wasn’t a drinker, I used to ‒, and I saw quite a bit of England a) because my mother was English and I ‒. People used to write in to the squadron wanting to have Australians on leave and so I went to Caernarvon, back to Caernarvon, I spent some time there. I went to Yorkshire. I went to Hull. They were the main places I went on my leave. We didn’t get that much leave because [unclear] but no I ‒, we used to take our rations and I got a lot of things from home, the condensed milk went down very well there, the plum puddings and biscuits they used to send over, and every now and again we’d get one from the people, they were volunteers that sent food parcels overseas. But no, I never liked condensed milk I didn’t think but when it was thick I used to get it out of the can, it was beautiful. We did a few silly things, Bill McGowan and I, we used to ‒, the bomb-aimer, we jumped out of our bedroom and we were boarded together and we were cold at one stage and decided we’d put some coal in the ‒, I forget what they called them, but it was a stove with a pipe out the top stuck in the middle, and Bill went along, there was a railway line by the side, picking up the coal together. We thought, ‘How are we going to get it started?’ And so what happened? I had the great idea of getting one of the flares from the aircraft. Put it in and started it alright [laugh]. But we got into a lot of trouble over that. It happened to be a green one [laugh]. But no, I enjoyed it. I liked meeting the people. They were like me and you. The Yorkshire people, he was a farmer and outside Hull, and at one stage he ‒, they dropped their bombs, the Germans, he must have had a hang-up [?] in his premises, killed a couple of cows I think. But no, I liked England and when I went back I liked it even more. Let’s see [background noise] that thing [unclear]
AP: So this is again for the tape. An article from a magazine called “After the Battle’’ which is about Denis’s trip to ‒. It looks like his war-time career and return to England. Very nice.
DK: Yeah, they spent a lot of time with me actually, they took us up to Waddington and I had a meal in the officers’ mess and then down to ‒, where’s the thing in the south? It’ll come to me in a minute, you can see I’m aging. Where POF is. Actually there’s something I can say now, I’m the only person in the world that’s flown in both planes on D Day. So let me put it another way, there’s no one alive that’s flown in POF and was ‒, went to POS, which is in Hendon.
AP: That’s the two Lancasters in London. Fantastic. I remember seeing both of them on the same day a couple of years ago. I’ve never flown in them.
DK: Well, I’ve been in both of them.
AP: On the same day as well? [Laugh.] Very good. I’ll add that to the pile. That’s fantastic. Well, I think you’ve pretty well covered what you did on leave, when you stayed with families.
DK: I didn’t get into any trouble, I believe. A. I was married B. I didn’t smoke and C) We used to get the aircrew in England got American cigarettes once a month, a carton of them. The crew used to go to a pub, we’d pick up the night ‒, the ground crew, and take ‘em out for a beer and a couple of packets of Lucky Strike and you could drink all night on them ‘casue they were very precious in England.
AP: You talking about Caernarvon earlier. Personal question for the tape. There was, so my connection, my great uncle was also at Caernarvon for a while. A few years ago I went there myself. There’s still an active airfield there and I hired a little aeroplane and I went for a fly around. It was pretty cool. Why I mention it is because, what were the weather conditions like at that particular time? I remember it as being very cloudy and very, very windy.
DK: Yeah, yeah. I took to Manchester and places like this. Personally, what got me was the grandmother, for some reason she had lost her boys, and they were dead poor. There was a girl there, Mary I think her name was, and she didn’t know much about the world so the grandmother got ‒. I’d already been to Caernarvon, but this was on leave going back, and I went there this girl Mary took me all round Caernarvon, showed me the whole lot of it there. They were desperately poor, yeah, and I felt good at being able to give them the rations.
AP: Do you ‒? What sort of place did you live in while you were at that station? Can you remember that sort of detail?
DK: No, all I can remember that we had so much of this, what we called ‘rubber egg’ there [laugh] and Welsh rarebit. I do remember that. No, I didn’t like it. I liked Caernarvon Castle. We didn’t do much up there anyhow. We were just getting sort of introduced to the RAF and that there, I guess, you know. We were in an Anson hut, an Avro Anson.
AP: What did you do at your heavy conversion unit with your crew?
DK: Syerston.
AP: Syerston, I think you said Syerston. I’ve been there too. What did you think of the Lancaster the first time you saw it?
DK: Lovely, lovely, so it was big [emphasis]. But we’d been in a Stirling beforehand and the Lancaster was so much better. But we didn’t go ‒, we’d never been in the Halifax. And the Lanc was terrific, it really was. It could take off at 66,000 all that weight and it would still make it, it was manoeuvrable, and we never had engine trouble the whole time we were flying in that. We lost a lot of pilots as you know. I saw something the other day, it was on CNN, which I watch too, out of every operational thing from aircrew but there was a big casualty rate per cent, which was something like 55 or 66, one in every fourteen, I think it’s somewhere there. Anyhow, I’d got the information but it didn’t worry me ‘cause we’d done that and we’d come back from the last one we were doing. I thought the Air Force was good. I think the idea of the Air Force saved England. They [unclear] and led the way for the bombing of the thing, you know. I recently saw a speech by ‒, it was analysed where, Hess I think it was, said that the number of eight millimetre anti-aircraft guns they had to use was taken from the front, from the Russian front, you know, and the bombing just got to the stage where they couldn’t keep ‒. The thing that worried me, they almost got the atom bomb, the [unclear] heavy water I think, I’m sure of that, but no doubt mechanically the Germans were better at everything they made and they still is really good. But the Lancaster was really good, it could fly actually on one engine. We never had that, we only lost one engine, through a bit of anti-aircraft, shrapnel, you know.
AP: There was another question, ah yes, a sort of daily life question if you like. When you were actually on an operation as a wireless operator, what were you doing?
DK: Mainly you’re doing listening out because Bomber Command sent instructions to you and you had code. Doing that, then we got Monica and that was my responsibility and I did the IFF, the navigator ‘cause he was busy, you know, at that point. Only a couple of times did I ever have to, you know, a fix with the radio, but mainly listening out every half hour for this. One line, we were on our way and this came through and I couldn’t de-code it and I said to Tom, ‘I’m getting a message but I can’t ‒.’ ‘Jesus Christ,’ he said, ‘What do we do? Do we turn back?’ I said, ’No, I don’t think so’, and so we went on and then half an hour later we got that the chap that sent it had the wrong code book so everybody [unclear] and some went on and on and on and most of them turned back.
AP: It was actually intended to be a recall wasn’t it or ‒?
DK: Yes, yes, we had the wrong code.
AP: Whoops! But very rarely did you actually transmitted, I believe?
DK: Once only, we had to go out half an hour before the main group, take a barometric pressure and wind speeds and I had to do that and send it back. I’ve got to think where time and clock set and just stop today. It’s very personal but the psychologist said, ‘Can you think of anything where your life depended on it?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ [Laugh.] I said, ‘I’ve never sent so quickly in all my life and I hoped it was correct.’ But yes, it was good.
AP: Very good.
DK: We missed England one time coming back. We landed in Porter Down in Northern Ireland [laugh].
AP: Oh dear. Someone said to me once that navigation was easy because you just flew for the nearest cloud and England was underneath it [laugh].
DK: Yes.
AP: Very good. How and where did you live in the squadron, at Waddington?
DK: We had quarters there and I was with Bill McGowan. We had these bedrooms, if you can call them that, with two bunks in them, and we used to go to bed usually about four o’clock in the morning after doing all the trips and waiting to get in. I cheated in that. I put on Tom’s radio, which was only for local, onto the power of the ‒, and so he’d call up and we’d get a place in the circle well before we should have. The other thing we did too which was perhaps silly but turned out to be a good idea, because we took these blokes to [unclear], they had used to ‒, the ground crew. I had an old car and I used to fill it with hundred octane petrol because I saw them washing their hands in it but I ‒. Then you’d hear the next morning, ‘Wakey, wakey, rise and shine! The bombing’s on again tonight.’ So I said, ‘No!’ But no you never did three nights in a row. That was ‒. People ask me, how did you do it? My son asks me, you know, knowing and seeing things happen around you. When the CO got up at the end of the briefings and said, ‘There’s your route. There are a lot of you that aren’t going to be here tomorrow so make sure your personal things, anything you don’t want your wife, your sweetheart or your mother to see, make sure they’re not there.’ And then the other unwritten thing was anything there that was any good somebody took. When I got back [laugh] went back nothing was there. In fact, even the car was gone and my wife, she got the letter, and she didn’t know I had a car. I never did anything about it so I guess the RAF Benevolent Fund ‒. It was just an old Standard and nobody could use it because I hadn’t had the petrol and I had Tom have a look at it ‘cause he was learning as a motor mechanic and he couldn’t see but it just gulped petrol. Hundred octane was alright but if I’d ever got caught I’d have been in trouble because they didn’t know I were dipping.
AP: Oh dear.
DK: I enjoyed England. I didn’t enjoy the ops but everyone we did we said was stretching our luck, it’s time, but when the CO was saying this, you could see you were being missing [unclear] these poor buggers ‘cause they were looking at you, thinking, ‘ Poor buggers.’
AP: That’s no good. One thing, the question your son was asking, how did you cope with the stress of that? What sort of things did you do to er ‒, let off steam or what happened?
DK: Well we got up to a few things as a crew but for myself, that’s why I went to all these different places, which was completely relaxed, not going to London and drinking and, you know, all that. That was my way of relaxing. But I was uptight, there’s no doubt about that. But it was just at night you were focussed on that night and we were all confident with everybody else’s ability. That’s why I felt sorry for the rear gunner, he’d just turned nineteen, caught [unclear] that photo, no that, the big one.
AP: Ah, yes.
DK: Yeah, I think he’s right at the end. Yeah. Nineteen. He was a country boy, he’d never been with a woman, and so we told him at the end of the tour we’d take him to London and introduce him to a girl we’d pick up at a bar, or otherwise we’d buy one for him. So we started to call him Virg, you know, virgin, the poor bugger never made it. He was really looking forward to it and we used to tease him, you know, we’d say this is what you do and someone would say, ‘No, no, no. This is what you do.’ I said to him, ‘Look, it all comes naturally Col. Don’t worry about it.’
AP: That was actually supposed to be your last trip?
DK: Mmm.
AP: Oh dear. Not the first time that it happened I imagine. We’ve just about got to the end of my list here. You said you had a rough time for about six years after the war when you came back? How did you find re-adjusting to normal life? What did you do after the war?
DK: Er, I had what they called nervous dyspepsia and they reckoned I had ulcers so they’d given me ‘swallowing the snake’ we used to call it, down into the pit of your stomach. And I had to go privately to a ‒, a chiropractor, that’s right, ‘cause I’d had terrific migraines and did for years and years and years and finally I found a chiropractor at Burley [?] and I went down and he did a lot for my spine and neck and then I only got headaches, I didn’t get the bad migraines that I was getting. And I was getting restless sleeps, still am. My wife [unclear] two years, now that’s personal, but I came back and my wife was living with her mother in Elwood, in Anderson Street, and she brought Den up because my wife was four weeks younger than me, just four weeks, so she didn’t know much about it so she was living with her mum and when we went back we went there and the first night back Den was in a wheelchair, a baby’s chair, at the table and he was near Phil [?] so I went to bring him back to me, so next thing, she took it and took it back again. And I said to Phil, ‘What am I doing? Am I causing a problem? I’m the father.’ You know, the thing was Phil’s mother had five girls, never had a boy, and this Den was a boy of course, and that was part of it and secondly, she’d sort of brought him up for three or four years, so he was hers and she made it very difficult. She even got to a stage when I was at the MCG, on officer or the guard or some duty officer, her mother would find cinema tickets and put them in my pocket, the stubs, and then when it was going to the cleaners she’d pull them out and say look [unclear] she did everything. Anyhow, you know, when I got home I didn’t know whether to make love or turn my back and she was the same and I woke up one night and I had her round the throat, sitting on her, and shaking her, and that frightened me and I told one of brothers-in-law and at the time he was the manager of [unclear] gas works and had a new Austin. He just came up one day after I’d been discharged and said, ‘Ned,’ (everybody called me ‘Ned’ of course) ‘Ned, I want you to take this car now, pack up your stuff that’s yours and Phils and go. It doesn’t matter where you go but go.’ He’d seen the problem. So that did a lot. By the time we got back, we were naturally OK with everybody. We caught up with the things we did but my wife never knew any of the stuff that, you know. I didn’t write that until about fifteen years ago and it was Den who came to me and said, ‘Dad, you got grandchildren and great-grandchildren and you should leave your story.’ So, I don’t know what I did with it, I was looking for it [background noises]. Here it is.
AP: Fantastic.
DK: I wrote that [background noises] and my mate done ten copies.
AP: Wow!
DK: And that’s from beginning to end that one.
AP: I would love to read that. That’s amazing.
DK: It’s ‒. You want the whole lot of it?
AP: I would love to read it.
DK: Well, when you get to Chapter thirty-seven there are a couple of pages that are loose there because they were ones that were put in when my daughters were doing it, there was a numbering problem, so it’s only the first two pages in chapter thirty-seven, which is ‒, that’s where the real gaps are, from the moment I got shot down and to the moment I got back.
AP: I’d love to read that. That’s outstanding. So that’s why you’re doing interviews and things like that. I only met you an hour and a half ago and you’ve told me this amazing stuff. I’m absolutely humbled. Finally, my final question though. A more general question though. How? What legacy has Bomber Command left and how do you want to see it remembered?
DK: Well, I admire Bomber Command obviously because for me it started the problems with the Germans, so that they were out with the second front. The second thing was, the bombing on D Day was tremendous, you know. Thirdly, I think I changed from being a boy that was eighteen, to being a man when I came back. But the adjustment took more than people outwardly would know, I’m sure there’s some of them [?], but inwardly I never felt any guilt but lately I’ve felt the guilt but, you know, I used to have these nightmares, being on fire, which I was, but not being able to jump out and then the other one I’ve told you which I could see my body in parts on the ground. But no, we used to say, you want to be grateful, we’re sitting here and the flyers would say, ‘Geez, we’ve been shot down. Give us another one.’ But actually now with the drones ‒, and when I went May and June with Den last year Channel 2 were there to tape everything ‘ cause the whole time we were there everywhere we went they put ‒, and it ended up being 60 minutes, an hour thirty minutes on a 7.30 report. But the thing that did more for me was going back to France and meeting people. The little village Pargny-sur-Saulx was, you know, only a tiny little village. Now when I went back they’ve got a mayor and a city hall and they gave us a mayoral dinner and ‒. I’ll keep on talking to you while I get something.
AP: That’s alright.
DK: And er, then we met the people and they made such a fuss of me, you know, and I just couldn’t believe it. [Background noises.] That comes out. That’s Pargny-sur-Saulx.
AP: It’s a small medallion, actually it’s quite a large medallion from Pargny-sur-Saulx. Cool. I love it. Very nice. The French do pomp and ceremony very well.
DK: Yes, well, I went over there with my son to sort of thank them and he wanted it too.
AP: That’s the microphone.
DK: Because I wanted to see it but he made all the arrangements and it went really, really, well and the people were so grateful, coming back, and one of those things in that stuff I’ve got is a copy of a French newspaper they sent me. That was my twenty-first birthday and it’s in the in French, somewhere in that stuff.
AP: That’s outstanding.
DK: It might be nearer the top.
AP: I’ll pull it out later I think.
DK: Yeah, it’s just two photos stuck together but that’s it, I’m just in the left hand corner. It was my twenty-first but somebody in France did it and then they put it in their paper years later and they sent us the paper, the paper just disintegrated, but the photos I have on the computer and I did photos of it but no, I, when I went back Den ‒ I don’t know, I’ve got literally hundreds of photos. But it wastThe first time I’d seen a drones, you see the [unclear] cameraman was using a drone all the time. You can’t get back to the site where the plane landed ‘cause it’s all swampy. That doesn’t worry me at all because if it hadn’t been swampy I don’t think I would have got back. You can’t get in there now. But somebody got in to get that and now this huge one they had, Jack collected it as a souvenir and he didn’t let anyone know he had it and then it came forth at one of the things ‒.
AP: Wow.
Dublin Core
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AKellyDV151201, PKellyDV1501
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Interview with Dennis Kelly
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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01:37:53 audio recording
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Pending review
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2015-12-01
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis Kelly grew up in Australia and joined the Royal Australian Air Force aged 18. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 467 Squadron from RAF Binbrook. His aircraft was shot down over France and he evaded capture with the help from the French Resistance.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
France
France--Pargny-sur-Saulx
Great Britain
United States
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Christine Kavanagh
467 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
coping mechanism
crewing up
evading
fear
Lancaster
RAF Waddington
Resistance
shot down
Stirling
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/7/3394/ADerringtonAP150715-02.1.mp3
6cd1f162411f8a65aa035d4d1151c5ab
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Derrington, Arnold Pearce
Arnold Pearce Derrington
Arnold P Derrington
Arnold Derrington
A P Derrington
A Derrington
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Dr Arnold Pearce Derrington DFC (- 2016, 187333 Royal Air Force), a navigator with 462 and 466 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Derrington, AP
Date
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2015-07-15
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AS: It’s 15th July 2015. My name’s Adam Such. I’m a researcher for the International Bomber Command Centre and this is the second half of an interview with Flight Lieutenant Derry Derrington former DFC, former navigator on 466 and 462 squadrons RAF.
Derry first of all good morning thank you for allowing me to come back.
DD: My joy.
AS: Great. I’d like first of all really to take you back to briefings. I know that they weren’t all exactly the same but can you give me a general idea of how long they’d go?
DD: Well a briefing used to last about three quarters of an hour at most. Sometimes it could be done in a quarter of an hour and once we had the briefing the navigator would settle down to make out what his flight plan. Do you know what a flight plan is?
AS: Roughly. But if you’d like to go through it.
DD: It’s on every chart and every log I’ve got here and you’ll see that we knew the complete journey that we had to make and it wasn’t always direct. It would appear that it should be but we had to do all sorts of diversionary courses in order to fox the enemy and I’ve got a chart that I want to give you which shows every target we went to with, as it were, a straight line going from Driffield or our take off point was called Flaxfleet and it wasn’t a straight line as my chart shows but it’s easy for anyone to notice and we didn’t go in straight lines like it appears to be. I’d like to give that to you now while I think about it.
AS: Ok.
[pause]
AS: Now I now have your chart in front of me with your thirty one missions on it.
DD: Yes.
AS: Yeah, as you say straight lines but the doglegs would be quite substantial I suppose depending on where the -
DD: Well depending on the time. We could always lose time. We couldn’t pick it up unless the pilot really stepped on the gas but two minutes was the most that we have to, we mustn’t get there too early or we had to lose some time but we didn’t do that very often but of course once your jigging around like that you’re crossing the path of other members of the stream of aircraft and you were taking a risk. You’ve got to be very alert. You don’t want collisions in the air.
AS: Back, back to the briefing where we started did, did the whole crew go just to one briefing or was there separate briefings for pilots and navigators.
DD: No it was a total, all the crew was there for it and they went back to do whatever they wanted to do with their equipment but we had to sit down and work out our flight plan and the flight plan was a very handy thing because it depended of course on the forecast winds of that time. They may have changed completely by the time we would do the operation but they would have been just about five or six degrees difference perhaps from one course to another and it wasn’t just a case of the calculation course you had. You had to work out deviation and also each aircraft was tuned differently so that you had to amend the calculated course that you were going to steer. You applied correction and deviation but that was the navigators job to do that and well it took some time with the computer working out the courses that we had to go but the bomb aimer might have been with me on these occasions. Jonah our bomb aimer was quite keen and he would be watching what I was doing. And we were great pals. They were wonderful crew to be with.
AS: After, after the briefing and you’d worked out your flight plan it’s, what happened then? I mean
DD: Well.
AS: We hear about the operational meal, the operational egg. What -
DD: Well we had, some of the chaps said they had a good meal beforehand. I only seem to remember a good meal afterwards [laughs] they gave us plenty to eat. Two Eggs on My Plate is, I believe is the title of one book written about our experiences in those days. But they did feed us very well with a good old fry up.
AS: Then out to the aeroplane.
DD: We felt we were very privileged people because in those days were the days of rationing.
AS: Then out to the aeroplane. How long before take-off would that, would that be?
DD: Probably two hours, two and a half hours or so before take-off. And it wasn’t a case of being waved off we just were there and we went and didn’t know who was waving us off or what we were just intent on being there and doing our job.
AS: You were, were 4 Group, in, in Yorkshire.
DD: I was - ?
AS: 4. In Number 4 Group.
DD: 4 group yes.
AS: Now that’s between the 6 Group North.
DD: Yes.
AS: And the other groups South. Did you climb out directly on course or or did you have to avoid the other aircraft from -
DD: Well we had a collecting point to move from near Spurn Head, a place called Flaxfleet and we didn’t set course from the airfield as such we were out warming up and going around, flying in orbit around the area but we wanted to be at Flaxfleet by the time of take-off. TOT time of take-off or time over target TOT. And we set off from there and well we were on the alert all the time to see we weren’t too near other aircraft. I say we - especially the gunners. They were the eyes of the plane and the pilot.
AS: Once, once you had formed up and I presume for daylight operations there was more of a coming together than, than at night time?
DD: You mean the aircraft flying close to each other?
AS: Yeah.
DD: I suppose there must have been. Most of our operations were night time, dark, in the darkness but we did some daylights. The Yanks were daylight people. They didn’t do too much dark, night time flying but we were day and night. And our trips were not quite as long as some people spent a long time. I suppose the maximum length of time you’ll see from our logbooks the maximum length of time on any of our operations was approximately eight hours but some people had time longer than that.
AS: Yes, I -
DD: We didn’t have any very long drawn out operational time. I’m amazed we did what we did in such a short time.
AS: I see Magdeburg probably was, was the furthest you went.
DD: Probably, yes.
AS: On your trips or perhaps Koblenz.
DD: Ahum
AS: Yeah. Coming, coming back now if I may coming back from the trip was there much of a desire to be home first? To open the taps? To -
DD: No. No, we went along steadily the only thing was in the funnel when we were coming to land we sometimes the Germans had a fighter lurking around and we had to be equally alert at landing time as we were taking off. That was that. Have you heard much about that happening?
AS: No I’d like you to tell me about -
DD: Well -
AS: The whole process.
DD: They had fighters in the funnel sometimes and of course our fighters were up to combat them but we had to be on the alert because of that.
AS: Could you talk I know you were inside behind your curtain but could you talk me through perhaps the, the sort of aids to final navigation? The funnel lights, the drem pundits, Sandra - that sort of thing. Could you talk me through the process of coming back to base and landing?
DD: Well I didn’t have much to do with that. I got them back to the area where we had to be and the crew looked after that as a whole. They got their eyes open and the pundits, those are, those are the flashing lights you’re talking about?
AS: Ahum.
DD: Well the pilot had his job to do and the bomb aimer might have been there to help him and be observing with him but as a navigator I’d was, I’d got them back to very near the base and I’d done my job but I was alert to write and record whatever had to be done and I’d hear the conversation of the crew and if I heard anything significant then I’d make a note of it on my log.
AS: Which brings me nicely into afterwards. After landing. You said you’d done your job but perhaps you were the most important man at the debriefing. What was the debriefing like?
DD: We were asked all sorts of questions and were you at the target in time? What opposition did you get there? And of course the crew would say as much as I would about that. If they’d said at the time they would have been on my log recording it. I believe my logs are pretty neat. I’m not as tidy and neat now as I was then but I know you’ll their fairly clear. I did everything printing. I didn’t do anything cursive writing at all. It was fine print.
AS: And they, they would they go through your navigation log either then or afterwards,
DD: Oh they’d have an overview quickly. And after the operation was over the navigation leader would have a look at the log and the chart. They were handed in together. And he’d write a comment do you see there are comments on the front page of it - A satisfactory trip or did you take enough fixes, take more than you do and what they may say what was your opinion of H2S when it came in to us initially. You’ll see one or two of my charts are in a colour different from the others instead of the normal red printing on a white background.
[OTHER: LONG PERSONAL CONVERSATION NOT TRANSCRIBED]
DD: Yes they had a white background and the towns shape is in brown and the brown showed up very good against the white background and if a town it isn’t just a red glowing dot on the fluorescent screen it was a shape on the chart that we had and if there was some projecting point in some way that you could identify then that a bearing on, from that could be taken and that would give me my position. It was, your attempt was to get a position every six minutes at least apart from any visual sightings there may have been and this radar was a wonderful help.
AS: Was it generally reliable?
DD: Oh yes. They did try to jam us but we didn’t have much of that to worry about. They couldn’t jam the H2S but the window that we scattered was supposed to confuse their ground systems for identifying us.
AS: But the actual installation in the aeroplane? Could you be confident you’d go in there and turn it on and it would work?
DD: Oh yes.
AS: And work in the air
DD: Oh yes it was very reliable.
AS: Was that generally true for the aeroplane? You’d walk to your allocated aeroplane and it would be fully functional for the trip.
DD: Yes. Oh yes.
AS: So the standard of maintenance was, was pretty high.
DD: Very good indeed. The ground crews were very helpful. And if we weren’t satisfied they soon knew it. [laughs]
AS: Were your ground crew predominantly Australians by the time you were on ops or a mix?
DD: We were a totally pommie crew with an Australian captain. And I don’t think we were, it wasn’t a case of tolerated we were treated as equals. We had a very good company. A jolly good lot they were too.
AS: The ground crew? Were they mostly Australians?
DD: No I don’t know any ground crew were Australian. They were all British I believe.
AS: Ok.
DD: One thing which was rather interesting I ended up as a lecturer in Manchester University eventually and there was one fellow who came on the staff. He said, [?] ‘My job was I trained as a navigator but they were beginning near the end of the war not to need any more air crew things were going on so well and it was my job to load you up with our bombs, with the bombs. I was doing that job’. So he has diversified to be loading up bombs for us and well we just took off with what they gave us.
AS: When we talked yesterday we talked a bit about the French at Elvington. Did you have much to do with the Free French squadrons?
DD: We just knew they were there and we were just delighted I think that we were cosmopolitan as we were. We had a Maori in our squadron and well we were British and the French were there and well they had the same directions and the same intentions as we did and we were just delighted I think that we were a multinational gang, 4 Group
AS: Yeah. Indeed you definitely were.
[pause]
There we are. So we talked that you were an Australian squadron fully accepted as English people.
DD: Ahum.
AS: The Australians were far from home can you tell me a bit about their life. What they did for leave and how - ?
DD: Well quite a few Cornish people went overseas mining years ago. There’s an adage if there’s a hole in the ground there’s a Cornish miner at the bottom of it. And the thing is that some of these Australians who came over had relatives in England. They weren’t all convicts [laughs] and they went off and had leave and visited relations and well they liked going to London to see the bright lights.
AS: Did your Skipper, did he come home with you? Did he?
DD: No. He has been home since but not during operational time.
AS: On the squadron can you recall any real characters and why they were characters?
DD: Oh there was a chap called Tiny Cawthorne. He was a very big chap. Very tall. There was a man called Ern Shoeman and Ern Shoeman was reputed to be a millionaire property wise and he and I were good friends. He used to write me quite a bit and he knew we had a handicapped daughter. Our daughter Mary is fifty nine, she’s Downs Syndrome and she’s a very sweet, gentle little soul. She’s at a home up in Wadebridge and she’s got a very good carer looking after her. My nephew Michael is very good to her, takes her out for morning coffee and so on. She doesn’t speak because she lost her voice when my mother in law died and she was annoyed. Or Mary’s reaction was, ‘I’m not going to speak any longer ’cause granny’s not here and she didn’t tell me she was going.’ And we’ve had speech therapists for her and she is not speaking but my son David is coming down, takes her off for a walk somewhere when they’re the only two there and she’s able to make herself known. She understands sign language and she’s a great joy and friend to us and we’re very relieved to think that she’s looked after so well because we’re ancient and we shall probably pass on before she does but normally Downs Syndrome people don’t live beyond the age of fourteen but we were told that she wouldn’t live beyond the age of two but she’s still going on ok.
AS: That’s
And they treat her like a little doll up there where she is with the Home Farm Trust. That’s the name of the organisation looking after her at Wadebridge.
AS: And she, she used to interact with this character from the squadron. The property developer.
DD: Oh no, Ern Shoeman -
AS: Yes.
DD: Used to write and ask how she was getting on.
AS: Ok.
[phone ringing]
DD: He was a very pleasant man. He was a pilot I think.
AS: Are there any other characters that you can recall?
DD: Well there was this chap Jackson who used to smoke his pipe through the inside of the oxygen mask [laughs]
AS: That was insane.
DD: Very risky business.
AS: Presumably when he was on oxygen.
DD: I think so.
[PERSONAL CONVERSATION REGARDING PHONE CALL NOT TRANSCRIBED]
AS: So there was room in the squadron for characters was there? Discipline was, was reasonably relaxed?
DD: Oh yes. Yes. We didn’t go on parade very much. I can’t think of many more. We were characters I suppose.
AS: Characters and survivors yeah. So, what, what would a day on the squadron, a non-flying day on the squadron have been like?
DD: Difficult to say. I did some of my book. You’ve seen the -
AS: Yes.
DD: Song of Songs. Places like, let’s see, Mablethorpe. That seems people used to go there for a day out if there was a forty eight hour pass or a stand down I ought to know if I thought of that I could think of that easily I just can’t think of any. They would go to one or two coastal towns between Spurn Head and oh I just can’t think of the names of them.
AS: Don’t
DD: [I ought to. I’m ancient you see [?]
AS: Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. So switching tack a bit. You have the DFC.
DD: Yes.
AS: How did you hear about your award and how was it presented to you?
DD: I’ve got a newspaper cutting about it there. It was in the Gazette. Rotherham Gazette I think and I had a very nice letter from the George VI - Secretary presumably. The king was indisposed. Wasn’t able to be presenting personally as he would wish to do and wished me well in my future career and it came through the post [laughs]. No ceremony or whatever. My wife has the MBE. We went to Buck House to get that and my sister in law and my daughter could go with us.
AS: Fantastic.
DD: But there was no ceremony about it and immediately after the war and for at least twenty years Bomber Command was almost in the dog house. They were thinking in terms of all the damage they did to oh someplace or other. Let’s see which would be the one?
AS: Was it Dresden?
DD: Dresden.
AS: Yeah
DD: That’s the one. Well we weren’t involved in that at all. We don’t know if we injured many civilians. There were bound to have been at times but you couldn’t be that selective. Necessary they might have been injured or killed. We tried to do our best not to damage local human beings but bombing is a very, well not exactly indiscriminate but we had taken, aimed to be as accurate as we could.
AS: You mentioned at Bomber Command as you put it was in the doghouse after the war. Was this a real feeling that, that you and your comrades had that your -
DD: Oh we didn’t feel that. It was the attitude of the general public and Bomber Command wasn’t popular with the national attitude for some time. It was some, afterwards I think people have come around to believe and to know that we were the only ones to really get to the heart of Germany and the industrial heart of it. And if it wasn’t for Bomber Command well the war would have gone on much longer. And of course Guy Gibson’s dam busting that created havoc and that shortened the length of the war, the length of the time of the war finishing.
AS: I’m, I’m really interested in the fact that you think that it’s, it’s changing. For what it’s worth I agree. But do you think things like the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park and what we’re doing up in Lincoln, do you think that is, signifies a change in public attitude?
DD: It was very popular at a time when the green park memorial was the biggest attraction in London and some silly fools went and defaced it with some paint.
AS: Yes I saw that. It was
DD: You saw that?
AS: Yes I was up there for the opening as you were.
DD: Oh it was a lovely day.
AS: Yeah.
DD: Yes they fed us well. They provided positions for us. We booked to go to it in good time to go see it. I went a day or two earlier I was so excited about going and Charlie and I were together and my son and my grandson went with me. They were the two guests I had and they were very impressed and delighted.
AS: There, there was this feeling amongst the aircrew that they weren’t appreciated before that. Is that the case?
DD: We didn’t think or care about it.
AS: No just -
DD: We were there and did the job and it had to be done. We didn’t care what the public thought. I will say this in terms of the public and Bomber Command I’ve been to a few reunions and I sometimes had a taxi to go from Paddington to another station, our reunions were often up in York, and I met a taxi man and he said, “Oh come with me I wouldn’t dare charge you chaps. I know what you went through.” And that was a lovely gesture. I’ve met that on two or three occasions.
AS: Moving completely different track if I may for a moment - use of wakey wakey pills - amphetamines or Benzadrine I know they were in the escape packs but were they ever offered to you before flying?
DD: I don’t recall anything about it at all. I don’t think so. No, we didn’t, I didn’t take any. I knew they existed but I didn’t want any or need any and neither did our crew.
AS: Excellent that’s good. Continuing on with the escape kit theme did you have any sort of escape training?
DD: Yes.
AS: And what did that consist of?
DD: We went to battle school and I seem to remember walking around on my hands and knees and I believe we had details to store a map in our caps or in our shoes in case we needed to make reference to the land to find our way around. We did escape training about a fortnight as far as I know.
AS: In your training before going on operations what, what sort of, of flying did you do? I’ve heard of bullseyes for instance. What were they all about?
DD: Yes they were practice flights to targets and they gave the bomb aimers and the gunners experience and the bullseye was operational experience and the bullseye was operational experience and a part of operational training. We didn’t do that when we were on operations. That was prior to operations.
AS: And did you get involved in leaflet dropping as well in training?
DD: No. I think the wireless operator’s job was to throw leaflets down through the chute and he’d take a handful every three minutes or so and they were in different languages. Some of the leaflets were like little booklets. I’ve got one or two there stuffed away in my general folder but I did have a lovely collection of leaflets and I went out to give a talk on one occasion and I’m sorry to say someone obviously pinched them.
AS: Oh Lord.
DD: I reckon I lost about twenty different leaflets on that occasion.
AS: That’s not a very nice thing to do.
DD: One leaflet I remember particularly was about the flying bomb site Watten that we went to and that’s now a visitor attraction with a coloured leaflet to hand out to people. And we knew that we had an aiming point. There was a great hole beside of the take-off place for these V1s and the walls of it were eight feet thick so you can imagine they needed to give good protection to the missiles which were stored inside.
AS: And you destroyed it.
DD: Hmmn?
AS: And the bombers destroyed it.
DD: Well they shook it up a lot [laughs].
AS: All the way through the crew has been the major part of your experience I think. Since the war I think you’ve kept in touch. Have you had -
DD: All the time.
AS: Have you had reunions?
DD: Oh yes we’ve had reunions. We went to Llanelli where Charlie the, Dennis Cleaver was, he married a Welsh girl. Whether we went to the wedding or what I don’t quite know. I did give an address at Jonah’s funeral. I am a Reader in the church and I wanted to talk about Jonah at the time. He was my particular close fellow ‘cause he sat beside me while we were on operations.
AS: What, what, what form did the reunions take? Would you all go off to a hotel somewhere or go back to Driffield or what?
DD: In York itself I think, mainly. It was Betty’s bar they used to talk about. They used to meet there when - you said what do people do on their day off or when they had free time - Bettys Bar in York was popular. I wasn’t a drinking fellow and that was very popular. They were a very hearty, jolly lot the Australians. Very easy to get on with.
AS: And you’ve been to Australia yourself a number of times.
DD: I’ve been nine times. Not just because of our daughter but there have been reunions in Australia. I did have some reunions to do with South Africa too. The [Hornclip?] Association. [Hornclip?] was a volcanic mountain with a flat top near where we flew from and that Association has packed in now but that was quite a popular meet up. I think we had one or two reunions in London.
AS: I think we’ll, we’ll pause there.
[pause]
DD: I don’t think we were using H2S until the end of our tour.
AS: We have from your fantastic folder here we have a, a collection of souvenirs[?] papers from each mission and one of them we have here - Mission 25 to Cologne does in fact have your H2S map here. Could you, could you talk me through what we’ve on this map?
DD: Well we had a fluorescent screen same size as the Gee was and the shape of the town would come up as a darker pink glow against a faint background and the shape came up like you see here. These different shapes of towns. You see London over there, a big patch, different towns in England and that was a case of navigating by H2S and I could take a fix every six minutes with no difficulty. See the scattering towns look.
AS: Yes.
DD: That’s the Ruhr there. You can see the shape of towns alright there.
AS: But on here you have a number of different coloured lines and writing could you, could you talk me through those. Base at Driffield there with -.
DD: Yes on the track that we wanted to keep there’d be two arrows and the wind that we found would have three arrows on it, the vector with the wind and we took off from Flaxfleet but you see our base Driffield is about twenty miles north of Hull and there’s a place called Flaxfleet not far away. That’d be the start of that thing. It was a village I suppose. I’ve never been to Flaxfleet. I’ve got a, somewhere over in that file over there big file I think I’ve got a postcard with a picture of Flaxfleet on it. Not that it’s very important but that’s the name of it.
AS: And then this, this is your track pre-planned. This is the track you’d planned beforehand.
DD: That’s right. On the way out. That was the wind vector there. That green.
AS: Ahum
DD: The target would have a triangle there.
AS: So you’re routing over, over Reading on this particular occasion.
DD: Yes.
AS: Is that, is that a regular route?
DD: I don’t know. Not often.
AS: But would you, would you always avoid London?
DD: Oh I suppose so. It’s such a sprawl. Anyway so long as I got my fix every six minutes that was all I really needed to have, needed to do.
AS: And you’re calculating a lot of wind vectors. One two -
DD: We were probably wind finders about that time and maybe[?] transmit that to PFF. There’s a rash of towns along -
AS: And as you say they all have different, different shapes.
DD: Shapes.
AS: What was the -
DD: Cologne.
AS: What was the target in Cologne?
DD: Railway. Railway marshalling yard.
3549 Other: Morning.
DD: Morning Abigail everything ok
PERSONAL CONVERSATION WITH ABIGAIL FROM MARKER 3605 - NOT TRANSCRIBED.
AS: So an enormous amount of information on here and you put this, which of this would you put on before you took off.
DD: Nothing.
AS: Information -
DD: Maybe that green, we dropped leaflets or something.
AS: That’s window, says window or something.
DD: Oh yes that might have been put on there before we took off.
AS: Also with your chart here we have a second chart and that’s -
DD: Sometimes we were asked to replot an actual operation and that might have been such a case. I don’t know.
AS: At short notice.
DD: After the operation. Analysing what we did.
AS: Ok.
DD: They kept their eye on us pretty well.
AS: And we also have a flight log. Flight plan, excuse me.
DD: Yes that was, that was target there. Before the target. After the target.
AS: Ok.
DD: What does it say here?
AS: Ok. - KJ Brown , Flying Officer.
DD: Hmmn
AS: So he was -
DD: He improved.
AS: Entirely satisfied with that one, with the Cologne trip. Can you, can you talk me through some of this. Here where it says watch - fast and slow. What’s that all about?
DD: Oh by watch when they gave us the time signal. Was it four seconds ahead of the actual Greenwich time signal or four seconds behind. That would be recorded there and the time would be important if I was doing anything to do with astro navigation but to the nearest minute well in terms of astro navigation a minute meant, a minute in time meant a four miles position difference and we had to correct for that.
AS: So you were navigating to that, that degree of accuracy?
DD: Yes.
AS: Ok. Here we have - is that required track?
DD: Yes, and those were the different winds we used.
AS: These would be given to you before the op would they?
DD: Yes. Yes that’s right.
AS: And then is this after take-off. This section of the form is
DD: That’s right
AS: After take off
DD: Yes.
AS: What actually happened rather than -
DD: That’s right. Watches synchronised so my time was what the pilot had in front of him. Why did I underline that I wonder. Is that take off time?
AS: Airborne. Yeah.
DD: Yes.
AS: Climb to six thousand over base. That must have taken quite a long time with a -
DD: Heavy aircraft.
AS: Heavy aircraft.
DD: The pencil’s a rather light colour. You can read it anyhow.
AS: Ahum [pause] and what’s that say?
DD: Master switch off. The master switch meant that the bombs couldn’t be released afterwards once it was off. We had a hang up or two once or twice with bombs. It’s not easy landing when the bombs are held up.
AS: Can, can you recall what size of bombs they were?
DD: Oh there’s a list of it. I’ve got a list of it on, let’s see, I think in the logbook there’s a list of the weight of bombs which we carried. You remember you’ve got the logbook?
AS: Yes. Yes, we can, we can have a look through that but this is marvellous this is a record of every single thing that happened isn’t it?
DD: Well that’s what the navigators job was you see. Not that we were going to do a post mortem or anything like that but at the debriefing they may have had questions to ask us.
[pause]
AS: And also you have a target photograph.
[pause]
DD: Cologne.
AS: Yeah.
DD: Anything on the back? No.
AS: What’s that telegram say?
DD: Best wishes and love, Helen.
AS: Fantastic.
DD: And that was the envelope the telegram came in. You don’t get greeting telegrams, you don’t get telegrams at anymore I suppose.
AS: And what’s the address there? Is that something Hall? Is that your officer’s mess?
DD: [Arley?] House, Marazion. That was my home address.
AS: Ah ok. Right. Shall we?
[pause]
Derry in amongst the things that you’ve kept is this Gee lattice chart here.
DD: Yes.
AS: Gee lattice chart North German chain. Could you talk me through what Gee was and how you used this chart?
DD: Well Gee was signal which came to us from a ground station and sometimes of course those did get attacked but we were delighted to be able to pick up these transmissions and we had a screen in front of us and we could find out where we were and the position lines as you see had certain values written on them and the value on that it made sure we were keeping to the same signal all the time and we had to record our position and we wanted to get two signals. One signal to cross the other and the better it was in terms of being a right angle it was more spot on. If it was say a thirty degree angle between the two position lines it wasn’t very satisfactory so we had to pick out the signals that were the most suitable to give us an accurate position and when we got our fix we used to make a mark with a cross on the chart according to where we were and it was my hope all the time to take a fix whichever method we did it every six minutes because six minutes being a tenth of the hour it was easier to work out by moving the decimal point the speed that we were doing and the Gee fix that we got showed us our ground position. By joining the air position to the air position we got an angle, a vector from which we could work out the wind direction and speed and that was the navigator’s job. The duties of a navigator are shown very well in the AP1234.
AS: Yeah, we, we’ll come to that.
DD: Does that tell you a lot?
AS: That does tell me a lot thank you and I can see here the crosses that you, some of the crosses that you’ve made.
DD: Yes.
AS: The lines are the Gee lines, the lattice lines are in green, red and purple. So were they different lines for different stations?
DD: That’s right. Yes.
AS: Ok and what would you see on your instrument, your Gee instrument? Would you see the values or -
DD: No I would set with some little tuning knob which station I was on which, and then take the reading for the position line and transfer that on to the chart I was navigating on.
AS: Ok and on here also apart from the crosses we have this pencil line coming down from [Maesemunde?] along the Dutch coast and then inland to by Krefeld.
DD: Yes.
AS: What, what was that? What does that represent?
DD: I don’t know. It might be if we were flying in that area whether we would be dropping window or whether we’d be dropping leaflets. It should be labelled but I’m not aware of it if it’s not labelled.
AS: Ok
DD: Is it a man-made line or a printed one?
AS: It’s a thick, thick pencil but no matter, it was a general query. Do these grid squares do they match up to a GJ there. HJ
DD: Pardon?
AS: They match up to your squares on your -
DD: The transmitting units? Those are different, the transmission would be here.
AS: Yeah excellent.
DD: Well modern laptops, on the computers are quite a frequent things but this is a laptop and it’s a circular side, slide rule and here we set the speeds and we used to prop the wind from that centre point how long it was, each one of these is ten miles and when we rotated this we set on the course that we were going to fly and take the reading off at that point there and I don’t really remember how I used this completely but it was a very useful tool.
AS: Which course would you pass to the pilot? Would you pass the true course?
DD: No. No, it had to compass the deviation and the compass correction and the true course was just, was a mathematical figure but that wouldn’t be handed to the pilot. And that was for converting statute to nautical. Centigrade to Fahrenheit. Indicated air speed.
AS: That’s a remarkable tool. It has a green and red pencil. What, what was the significance of the green?
DD: Well.
AS: And the red end?
DD: We used green for the fixed position and red for the target position but the green was used much more frequently than the red. And you’ll see the different colours on the charts that I’ve got.
AS: Yeah.
DD: Used occasionally but I think more likely than not ordinary pencil is more significant in my calculations than the different colours.
AS: Ahum
DD: I hope I’m talking sense.
AS: Absolutely. Now amongst your souvenirs alongside the computer is this air navigation.
DD: Oh AP1234.
AS: Now that is your bible perhaps.
DD: Yes.
[phone ringing]
DD: The ladies will answer that.
AS: Yeah. Now it -
DD: Somebody will come up very soon
AS: It seems.
DD: Oh she’s got the extension with her I expect.
AS: Fantastic. Quick thinking. It seems incredibly comprehensive
DD: Yes.
AS: Scope of navigation, bearings, compass error - was this a tool you used every day or something like a textbook from, from training or both?
DD: In training time. It wasn’t taken in the air with us. If you look somewhere around page thirty.
AS: Page thirty.
DD: Yeah that’s, that’s the -
AS: The circular slide rule. Excellent. Which is what we’ve just been looking at. The navigation computer mark III.
DD: Yes, I used that which is in your hand if I was giving a talk somewhere and that would have been put on top of that page I expect.
AS: Ok.
DD: These straps were there for a Mosquito pilot who was wearing it. He’d strap it to his knee and it had, it mustn’t move, like that. That would keep it from falling off his knee and being readily found if he needed it ’cause more likely than not he didn’t have a navigator with him and that was, he did his own navigation.
AS: Good Lord.
DD: [mentioned?] about arrows? Yes. Track two arrows the course that the pilot had to go was with that single arrow and three for the wind I think. Yes the vector of all wind velocity. The triple arrow.
[pause]
AS: It’s completely comprehensive isn’t it? The formula and the dos and the don’ts.
[pause]
What sort of examinations on all this did you have in training that you had to pass? Were they very detailed or - ?
DD: I don’t remember at all.
AS: Ok.
DD: We passed those exams that’s the thing.
AS: Yeah. You did your training in South Africa. Was there any anti-British feeling that you came across amongst the Boers?
DD: Oh yes we had to walk out in fours because there was a group of desperate Boers called the OBs [?] the Brothers of the Wagonette they were horse drawn people and they, they would assault air force people because of the pro-Boer feeling. South Africa had apartheid going on out there, colour bar, and that was cancelled later on but we kept together if we were walking out so we wouldn’t be attacked by these desperadoes.
AS: Was there, the other side of the coin was there a lot of kindness shown by other -
DD: Yes. .
AS: South Africans to you?
DD: Oh yes. South African families. Met some very interesting people called Thornton at East London and the lady of the house her husband was supposed to have the best stamp collection in South Africa. He was delighted to show that to us. They had a son and his friend, same age as myself and a friend, and they were training as doctors and I kept in contact with their son Geoffrey until he died about ten years ago and they, they were delighted to look after us. And the lady, Mrs Thornton, it so happened that when we moved to Queenstown from East London they were in a Red Shield Club, Salvation Army there was a friend who’d been to school with the lady that had met us in East London.
AS: Incredibly small world isn’t it?
[pause]
AS: Derry, one of the other the other things you’ve kept is your, your logbook.
DD: Yes.
AS: Observers and Air Gunners Flying Logbook. It’s not a blue one. It’s not a nice blue one. Why is that?
DD: Oh yes well of course the thing the normal ones are issued in England had a cloth binding. This one in South Africa just the bare boards. And this started to come to pieces and the repair I had done with that that blue colour there is the colour it should have been and it’s repaired somewhere in the St Just area. There’s a very good shop in St Just called Cookbook and they, I buy books there occasionally, I sell them books occasionally and they bind books as well and they repaired this for me.
AS: It’s a wonderful job.
DD: That you see there was my log when I went to grading school at a place called Ansty near Coventry flying Tiger Moths. Only small amounts of time.
AS: And these exercises 1, 1a, 2 they’re still used today.
DD: Oh are they?
AS: Yeah. Still used today. Very short time. September the 13th to what, the 26th is there any more on the back. Less than a month. Twelve hours.
DD: Ahum
[pause]
That’s Guy Gibson.
AS: Yes. So grading school and then in October 1942, and then jump straight to Queenstown in South Africa.
DD: Ahum.
AS: In October ’43.
DD: That’s when I passed out.
AS: Ok. Qualification.
DD: Do you know the pewter tankard I’ve got? It’s got a glass bottom in it. Do you know why?
AS: No.
DD: You don’t know?
AS: No.
DD: Well if it was a solid bottom and you were drinking than someone could easily draw a knife or whatever and give you a prong and that’s so you can see what was happening.
AS: I didn’t know life in an officer’s mess was so dangerous.
DD: Hmmn.
AS: Right. This is your result of your ab initio course.
DD: That’s right.
AS: At Shawbury.
DD: Shawbury?
AS: Ahum.
DD: Ahum that was a speck end course we called it. I’m entitled to the letter capital N like people put BA after their name but I don’t use it.
AS: And what, what’s your remarks there? What do, what do they say about you?
DD: Good results on course. With his pleasant personality and keenness this officer can satisfactorily fill a staff position. So you see I was called a staff navigator. They might have called me into a briefing room or something like that and there we are, that’s part of it.
AS: I’m just trying to get a sense of how much flying you did in training.
DD: I don’t think I did more than six hundred hours.
AS: It’s quite intensive Derry.
DD: Ahum.
AS: In South Africa on Ansons. I mean here - 14th of July. Good Lord, that was, 14th of July 1943, that was seventy two years ago yesterday.
DD: Yes ahum.
AS: Yesterday. You did three trips in an Anson.
DD: Ahum. Usually two as first navigator and second navigator. My friend Harry Dunn I was telling you about would be flying with me then and they had all sorts of strange names, Dutch names, these Boer people. South African Air Force they wore a khaki uniform.
AS: And army ranks.
DD: Yes.
AS: I believe. Yeah. In training did you feel it was high pressure and very intense or was it reasonably relaxed?
DD: Oh reasonably relaxed. My terrible feeling all the way along was will I be ready in time to do something worthwhile and we used to blame Air Commodore Critchley who was supposed to be a Training Command Officer and we used to blame old Critchley for not moving us on quickly if we got waiting and waiting and waiting for the next posting and I didn’t think I was going to live long enough to do operations but thank God we did.
AS: So did you get the feeling that there were an awful lot of aircrew in the system by time this time?
DD: No. No, we just accepted the fact we were a course going through and they must have planned well ahead to make places for us in South Africa and in Canada and in Rhodesia. I did write something about our overseas training. The Empire Air Training Scheme they called it.
AS: Was that published somewhere or -
DD: I don’t think so.
AS: Ok.
DD: It might have appeared in, there was an aircrew magazine called Intercom and I believe it was published in that but I’m not sure.
AS: I can look out for that. And then from South Africa by the time you left South Africa you had done what forty two hours day.
DD: Not very much.
AS: No eighty eight hour day flying and twelve hours twenty at night. Total flying. Left South Africa. And how did you get back to -
DD: On a troop ship called the Orduna.
AS: Ahum
DD: A South American boat. And there were a lot of women and children on board being repatriated out of India, service wives and children, and we went up through the Red Sea and we were kept at Tufik on the Red Sea until the Germans were cleared out of Italy and then they were afraid that we might meet some submarines in the, in the Mediterranean so we were well protected. They made well and truly sure that we’d be safely transferred.
AS: Ok. And you came into, to Liverpool?
DD: Liverpool again, yes.
AS: Super. Had you been commissioned by this time?
DD: Oh yes but we didn’t have commissioned uniforms until I’d travelled from Liverpool to Harrogate and that’s where the measurement and fitting of pilot officers uniform came into it.
AS: I hope you got a first class travel warrant.
DD: I suppose so [laughs]. I expect I did.
AS: And then we’re at Number 4 AFU is that Advanced Flying Unit?
DD: Yes, Advanced Flying Unit yes. Was that West Freugh?
AS: West Freugh, yeah.
DD: Stranraer.
AS: Yeah. And this was still, I suppose, individual training for you. You hadn’t crewed up at this point?
DD: No.
AS: And this was on Ansons?
DD: That was Ansons again. To get used to British conditions.
AS: Navigating in the fog. Yeah. Was it, was it a shock coming from the, the bushveld and the plains of and South Africa to what, what we have in the UK.
DD: No. We just took it for granted that it would be slightly different and we coped.
AS: And all the principals and all the training were - you could carry them straight.
DD: Yes.
AS: Straight across. Ok. Right, so we’ve got here a pundit crawl. Can you remember what that was all about?
DD: Travelling from red light to red light I think.
AS: Really ok.
DD: Whether it was the gunner’s point of view or from my navigation point of view I don’t know. Maybe I just had to record what was done. A pundit crawl.
AS: Yeah. And then 21 OTU.
DD: That’s Moreton, Much Binding in the Marsh.
AS: And it seems to get really serious at this point. You’ve got a page of dinghy drills, parachute drills, wet dinghy drill.
DD: We went to the Baths at Cheltenham for that. In the middle of England well away from the sea.
AS: Yeah. And by this time you, you’d crewed up?
DD: Yeah. No.
AS: Ok.
DD: Yes at OTU we crewed up, that’s right.
AS: Ok and you were using Wellingtons.
[pause]
Right.
[pause]
And that is super we did your OTU and crewing up and whatnot yesterday so I think we’ll draw a pause there if we can.
DD: Ahum
[pause]
DD: Turning on now?
AS: Yes.
DD: Occasionally we had a little wicker cage with pigeons in it and I believe the idea was that if we were shot down or if we were captured then the homing pigeons would come back with the news [laughs] and it only happened to us two or three times but I was aware that it did happen occasionally.
AS: And did you carry them on every trip or just -
DD: No. No.
AS: Just a few.
DD: Just occasionally.
AS: What, one wonders how you could release a pigeon from an aeroplane at two hundred miles an hour but perhaps it was if you crash landed.
DD: The crash would release the cage. The poor pigeons.
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ADerringtonAP150715-02
Title
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Interview with Dr Derry Derrington
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:08:21 audio recording
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Pending review
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Adam Sutch
Date
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2015-07-15
Description
An account of the resource
Dr Arnold Pearce Derrington grew up in Cornwall and joined the University Air Squadron at Exeter. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 and completed training at RAF Ansty, South Africa, RAF West Freugh and RAF Moreton in the Marsh, where he trained as a navigator on Wellingtons. He was posted to RAF Driffield where he served with 462 and 466 Squadrons. Most of his operations were over the Ruhr. He discusses H2S and Gee in detail. He was later an instructor at RAF Moreton in the Marsh and was demobbed in 1945. He kept a diary of his time in Bomber Command.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Gloucestershire
England--Warwickshire
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Wigtownshire
France--Watten
France
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
462 Squadron
466 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
animal
Anson
bombing
briefing
Gee
H2S
Halifax
memorial
navigator
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Ansty
RAF Driffield
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF West Freugh
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/568/8836/AFittP150519.2.mp3
81db65d296c732124d3b40d329ce903a
Dublin Core
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Title
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Fitt, Peter
P Fitt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Fitt, P
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Peter Fitt (Royal Air Force) and two photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 467 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Fitt and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AS: So that is now recording –
PF: Right.
AS: Right, as I’ve explained, this is an interview with Peter Fitt, Flight Lieutenant Signaller, from the Royal Air Force Bomber Command during the war. The interview’s carried out by Adam Sutch at Cromer, on the 19th of May 2015. The interview is also for the International Bomber Command Centre digital archive, and also present is Peter’s daughter, Jane.
PF: Yep, right.
AS: Peter, thanks ever so much for agreeing to be interviewed, I’d like to set the scene by asking you to describe your life before joining the Air Force. A little bit about your home, your parents, brothers and whatnot?
PF: Well, well that’s very quick. I was in horticulture so, and my father was a head gardener, and he was keen – I wasn’t – he was keen on me going into horticulture. I wanted to go into the Air Force, ‘cause I was still at the grammar school and there was opportunities to, to join the Air Force, but I – it didn’t materialise, and I was a bit angry at the time, but it didn’t matter, when your children, you get on with these sort of things, and the war came along [chuckles]. Course I went into the Air Force, and that was that, I’d, I became aircrew and I flew on operations during the war, against Germany, and in Lancasters like the one up there, and that’s [laughing] about all I can say apart from describing every trip which is – I don’t want to do that.
AS: No, no of course. When you were growing up, whereabouts was this? Where did you grow up? In Norwich?
PF: Where did I grow up? Oh yeah well, I went to Thetford Grammar School, and I left –
Jane: Where were you born?
PF: Oh, where was I born? Yes, well I was born at Earlham Hall here in, in Norwich where my father was head gardener, and erm, see the connection to horticulture [chuckles], and then I – where was I until you, I –
Jane: Then you went to Breccles Hall.
PF: Ah yes, then I –
Jane: But your father moved –
PF: My father, my father moved as head gardener at Breccles Hall and I was four I think when we moved, I went the local council school, and then I went to Thetford Grammar School when I was eleven, and that’s where I was until I, until I left. Got the usual thing one gets from grammar schools, a school certificate and things like that, and [pause] then it was – a war was declared and I always wanted to go into the Air Force, and my father wouldn’t let me go, and, ‘cause when I was at Thetford Grammar School, there was chances every year, the Air Ministry used to come send people round and, canvassing for chaps to go into the Air Force, but he wouldn’t let me, so when the time came along when he didn’t have anything to do with it, and of course I went into the Air Force [chuckles].
AS: What, what year would that be? What, what month and year?
PF: This would be at the outbreak of war, round about ’39 time.
AS: Okay, so what, what did you want to do in the Air Force? What was your plan when you joined?
PF: Well, my plan was, when, when I joined was to be a pilot and, let me think, I gotta get some things straight. I was at Uxbridge, and oh, there wasn’t a vacancy at the next pilot school, he gave, they gave me an excuse anyhow, perhaps they didn’t want me or what, however I didn’t get, I didn’t get my course, and I carried on and I wanted to be aircrew, so I became a wireless operator [chuckles], a diddy dit dah dit man.
Jane: Was it Bicester?
PF: Pardon?
Jane: You went to Blackpool to learn Morse code.
PF: Yes, that’s where I started – yes well – yes at Blackpool and Yatesbury for wireless operating.
AS: Could we go back a bit? What did you do, what, to join the Air Force? Did you –
PF: What was I before the war?
AS: Sorry?
PF: What was I before the war?
AS: No, what did you do to join the Air Force? Did you go to a recruiting office or, or, or what?
PF: Well, I, I just went to the St Martineau Hall in Norwich here, and I joined the Air Force from there, ‘cause I was working at Crown Point, during [unclear] horticulture actually, and I was at Crown Point, I lived in the boffy there, and, so I naturally went to the recruiting station in Norwich and joined the Air Force.
AS: And that was it, you just –
PF: That was it. And I was in, I think I was in the Air Force for a fortnight and I was flying in a fortnight or so.
AS: Good lord. When, where, after the recruiting office, can you describe to me a little bit about the process of joining the Air Force? So, what they did to you, where you went, how you were messed about, that sort of stuff?
PF: Well, I was messed about quite a bit, by waiting to go – be – [pause] to, to sign on as it were, and I had to go to a place called St Martineau Hall, is that right?
Jane: No that’s County Hall. Martineau Lane is where County Hall building is now.
PF: Where who is?
Lucy: Norfolk County Council building is actually on Martineau Lane.
PF: Oh, are they? Oh yeah, oh of course –
Lucy: That’s where the archive centre is actually –
PF: Well that’s why I joined the Air Force there, and signed on, because I, I was determined to go into the Air Force, my father – I was at the grammar school, I had a chance to go in the Air Force when I was fifteen, course they use to take boys from grammar schools, and I, he wouldn’t let me do it, so the time came, when I was all on my own, so I did it, and I went into the Air Force and that was it. I was, I was a wireless operator – trained as a wireless operator. I did my first tour of ops as a sergeant, a flight sergeant, and then I was, I was commissioned, and then I got a permanent commission and I was a flight lieutenant, and so that was my life in the Air Force. I was a signals, I was a signals leader in the in, and so that was my lot – my life was spelt and spent in the signals actually.
AS: Great. Let’s just wind back – we’ll get onto operational flying for sure – let’s wind back to how they got you into the Air Force. So where did they, where did they send you for kitting out, and what was the process of actually becoming an airman?
PF: Oh, what was the process?
AS: Yeah.
PF: Well, I, I of course volunteered here in Norwich, forgotten the name of the street now, and I just went and signed on there, and within a few days I’d been called up, and I was at Uxbridge [chuckles] in a uniform, much to my parents’ horror. You can imagine my mother [chuckles].
AS: Absolutely. And this, this was as selected for aircrew already, or was this basic training to start with? Basic recruit training?
PF: Yes, that’s right, yeah. It was recruit training and as I was going in for the signals, I was naturally pushed to places where you could – you got used to the life, and the Morse code and all that sort of thing. However, that’s roughly how it worked, is it – was that all you wanted to know? I can’t give you a lot of detail.
AS: No, no, we’re fine –
PF: My logbook is up there somewhere –
AS: We’re doing well. Perhaps we could do it from your logbook to an extent. So, when you’d done your recruit training, and you were selected for aircrew, what happened then, for your signals training? Were you selected for signals straight away, or given some sort of tests?
PF: Well, I wanted to be a pilot, and I tried to be a pilot – I went through numerous selection things, and every time they said, ‘well Mr Fitt, we recommend you to go to Yatesbury’, I think it was to Number Two Radio School, and go in for, and go in for signals. Become a radio operator aircrew, which I did of course, and I was a signals leader and I went right up the ladder in the signals side, but – there we are. But I was a flight lieutenant, signals leader. What is it, Jane?
Jane: [Unclear]
AS: Thank you. Yes, so Yatesbury was your initial contact with signal, was it?
PF: Yes, well no, it wasn’t really. Blackpool was, Blackpool not only was a recruiting centre where I had to go when I first joined in 1940, but it was done by One Radio School or something, so I had a little bit of wireless training there, but my main wireless training was done at, in Number Two Radio School in Yatesbury in Wiltshire. That’s where I started – I did all my training right the way through to OTU crewing up, and or not – I was on operations in early ’43, 1943, and I had a Norfolk pilot which was rather good [chuckles] from Ormesby [chuckles] –
AS: So, can you tell us – the period – you joined up sort of ’39, ’40, and the period between then and going on operations, were you being trained all that time?
PF: All that time yes, on radio, yes. But that, not – to answer your question correctly – not all that time. There was three or four months where I found myself at Royal Air Force Watton, two miles from where my parents lived, so that was very, that was very handy, and I was there as a radio – as a wireless operator. Well it wasn’t bad because I was, I was in keeping with the Morse code and all that sort of thing, and then from there, that’s where the whole career started, and I was flying and I crewed up and I did my tour of ops in 1943, I made thirty trips and went back again in – oh God I can’t remember, 1945, in between time I was at, back to Yatesbury as, ‘cause I was commissioned, so I went back as officer in charge of the wireless flights, so I [unclear, chuckles].
AS: When you went to Watton, early on –
PF: Ah yes, I was – that was before I was commissioned. I was there as a ground operator actually, as a wireless operator, and Watton near – my parents lived three miles down the road [chuckles].
AS: As a, as a ground wireless operator, were you involved with DF-ing aircraft? What were your duties?
PF: No, I could have been, but it was purely SHQ, station headquarters, radio operating, which was station to station. It wasn’t for very long, and I was back in aircrew training again.
AS: Okay. Did you do very much flying whilst you were training?
PF: Yes, I did, I did a tour of ops in 1943, doing my thirty trips, and I went back again, on my second tour – I can’t remember the date – what was the – have you got my logbook there, Jane?
Jane: Yep, yeah it was –
AS: When you were training as a wireless operator, did you do much flying or was it mostly on the ground?
PF: Oh yes I did, we flew in Proctors and Dominis at Yatesbury funnily enough –
AS: Really?
PF: And, yeah that’s all it amounted to and that wasn’t – these aeroplanes were fixed up with four-five sets, and you just went up there with an instructor and that was that.
AS: Mhm. And you learnt Morse code obviously, what –
PF: Yes, I had to do eighteen words a minute, for a start before you ever did anything, and then I became a signals leader, and I had to do twenty-one words a minute for that. But I never – you never use twenty-one words a minute. Twenty-one words a minute is very, is very fast Morse and it’s usually about eighteen is the comfortable Morse speed.
AS: Aside from the Morse, what else did your training consist of? Processes and procedures?
PF: Well, I [pause] fault detection, fault finding, if anything went, if anything went wrong with the transmitter or receiver, you were taught to look for different things to, try and trace it through. Didn’t always work, however, but you had to do it. FF - fault finding.
AS: Mhm. How about wireless bearings and things like that?
PF: Oh yes well that was all part and parcel of your work, and I had to take bearings knowing where and how to call up, using the, you know the Morse code getting a bearing, and that was your job really. That was – and getting, what was it [pause], oh God, I’ve forgotten the name of them now, getting QDMs [chuckles], you’re nodding your head as if you know what I’m talking –
AS: I know some of them, I know the important ones. I know QDM and QFE and one or two other things. Did you get involved with these flimsies at all? Little papers with secret information about station call signs and things like that. Was that part of the stuff you went flying with?
PF: Well, we always had, we always had a, carried a – what did we call them – a flimsy, which was, could be eaten if you were [pause] caught by the enemy, that contained all the wireless information, station frequencies and call signs that you required, so that was what happened. And most of us, you – you’re doing it yourself. [Pause] there was a picture somewhere – where is it? Oh there it is, of me sitting at my 11-54-55 there.
AS: That’s in a Lancaster, isn’t it?
PF: Yeah it –
AS: Yeah.
PF: You know the sets, did you? The 54-55 –
AS: Not a lot no –
PF: No, I didn’t know whether you were a wireless man.
AS: I – my father was a wireless man, not me. [Pause] was it all work? Did you get quite a lot of leave when you were training?
PF: Well, no – we got, at the end of each course we got leave, but there was no fixed leave like when, what we got on the squadron, and we were operating, you used to get seven days leave every six weeks, and that was, that was very useful, ‘cause I was married then, and yes and [pause] what else was there? Yes, that was about all, we were just lucky, only because I was aircrew.
AS: Before you got to aircrew, still on the training, apart from Morse speed examinations, did you have to take any other sort of technical examinations? Written –
PF: We had, had examinations on fault finding and [pause] repair work and, you know – what’s the word for, you know, there is a word that one uses, not second-hand, [pause] when you have a breakdown on a car, you –
Jane: Maintenance journal?
AS: No, no it doesn’t matter, I know what he means –
PF: You know what I’m trying to say.
AS: Yeah. Repair’s a good, repair’s a good word, yeah, it is. Okay. The chaps you trained with, did you form close bonds with them during training, as a unit?
PF: When, what? I’m not with you –
AS: When you were training as a wireless operator –
PF: Yeah –
AS: Did you form close friendships with others on the course? Other trainees?
PF: Well, no, we didn’t, well yeah, I think we got – one or two of us found ourselves on a squadron, but some weren’t fortunate, I think it just depends on your ability and how good you were at Morse and things like that [chuckles].
AS: Yeah. Again, during training, did you ever fly out over the Irish Sea on training flights?
PF: No, honestly, I never flew over the Irish Sea period.
AS: Okay. Now I have a special interest in asking, because of an organisation called The Training Flying Control Centre, but if you didn’t fly over there, we’ll pass that one.
PF: No, no I can’t get into that, because I wouldn’t know anything about it.
AS: When you’d finished your training, you’re entitled to your aircrew badge. Did you have a big parade with dignitaries, or did they send you to the stores to get it? What happened?
PF: No, no we had a – I was at Yatesbury and we had a proper passing out parade, which was purposely laid on for the benefit of the, what’s the word, esprit de corps, and that was it. A parade and an inspection by the CO, who would pin your brevet on [chuckles].
AS: And at that point, were you promoted?
PF: Well, immediately I became aircrew, I became a sergeant, then I was a flight sergeant, and then I applied for a commission and I was commissioned [pause] in the September, I think it was, and I became a signals leader, and I became a flight lieutenant, and I became a signals leader on a squadron, and so that was my history in, where signals are concerned.
AS: When you passed out and got your flying brevet, did you choose to go to Bomber Command or were you just sent?
PF: I was posted to Bomber Command. I was quite happy about it, because I didn’t fancy going into Fighter Command or, or into these fighter bombers, like Blenheims and Bostons, that wasn’t my cup of tea. I imagined myself like that sitting in the cabin [chuckles] and with, a large, with seven other members of the crew, and I was quite happy about that. That’s how I continued, I became a signals leader and a, what else, all sorts of things, a leading, you know how it goes, and the pay was good, leave was good, I was at Mildenhall only about twenty minutes away from my home[chuckles].
AS: So did, once you’d passed out, did you go straight to a squadron or, what happened then?
PF: Oh, we’re back in training? Well, I did operational training on a Wellington, on Wimpies –
AS: Whereabouts?
PF: Finningley, and Doncaster. Then I went to the squadron, via a, oh God, I can’t think of words, a conversion –
AS: Heavy conversion unit.
PF: Heavy conversion unit. At, can’t think, Winthorpe I think it was. Gosh, this is going back a bit, but it’s in my logbook, doesn’t matter, I don’t want to look it up, and that was the, my history in the Air Force. So, I was connected with signals all the time, even when I’d finished operational flying, I went as a signals leader somewhere. I was mainly at Mildenhall which was a bit of luck.
Jane: Can I just ask you, what about RAF Cranwell? When were you there then?
PF: Yeah, I was, I went to a course at Cranwell while I was at Mildenhall, Jane. Yes, Jane’s reminding me I had to go to Cranwell, mainly because I was commissioned, and they were feeding a, pilot officers into Cranwell to give you a taste of bullshit you know [chuckles], how it is and that’s how I, that’s how I got to Cranwell.
AS: Okay. What did you think of the Wellingtons that you were training on at the OTU?
PF: Well, the Wellington was, it was a wonderful aeroplane, it was so reliable and erm – I did all my training on Wellingtons until we were told we were going onto Lancasters, and that we would be going onto Manchesters to convert, and that was my routine, and on Manchesters and on Lancs and that was that.
AS: And at the OTU – was it the OTU you met your crew?
PF: Yes, I was crewed up at the OTU. We were still on Wellingtons then, and that was at Finningley.
AS: Can you tell me a little bit about the crewing up process? What you were looking for in a crew?
PF: Oh yes well, that, it was left to you, the courses arrived at the OTU, the operational training unit, and we were all called to a meeting [pause], the whole caboodle, and then we were told by the CO that we were all going to be put in so and so and so and so, some large room or dining room or something like that, and then we gotta leave it and you must crew up. So that’s the way we crewed up, we just, how did I crew up? Well Dennis was in – I recognised Dennis as a Norfolk accent, so that’s how I got my pilot, and the rest came from there, the others were just dillying around and that was that, we crewed up. We stayed together all those years, all those months rather, because we did a tour in about nine months. So that’s history.
AS: How long was the OTU process, and what time of year was it? Was it swift, or did you get weather problems or –
PF: Oh yes, we did have weather problems, particularly when we were having to do forced cross countries, and the weather was pretty lousy, and that was in sort of November, December time. And this was at, this was at Bircotes which was a satellite at Finningley in Yorkshire, and that was that. I did my OTU, went to, we crewed up at OTU, crewed up with five and we all went on Wellingtons, and we were then posted to [pause] an HCU, a heavy conversion unit where we converted, and this was at Swinderby, and we converted onto Lancasters, and that’s the history of the thing. I never flew on anything else, only on Lancs with the same crew.
AS: Can you remember what sort of training exercises you would do at the OTU? Things like nav-exes or bulls-eyes?
PF: Oh yes, going back to the OTU, that was before the conversion courses, well it was, mainly cross countries at night to get you used to the navigator and the navigator getting used to you and your wireless operating [pause] speciality, if that’s the right word, expertise is the word really, and that was that. That’s what I did, we crewed up and five of us were sent to – we crewed up in five, in Wellingtons and then we were posted to RAF Swinderby where we converted onto Lancasters, with, had to have two more crew, that was an engineer and another gunner added to the five, so that made seven, and then we trained there and we went to the squadron and we were on operations, just like that.
AS: How did you interact with the navigator?
PF: At, at the what, process?
AS: When you were airborne, how did you interact with the navigator? Providing him information, or -
PF: Well, Bert and I, Bert Tischington was the navigator, we got on very well together. We trained on Wimpies as a crew of five, Wellingtons that is, and so we got to know each other very well and we, so we never looked back. We did a tour of ops, complete tour on Lancs [coughs] ‘scuse me [coughs] good God. And that was that [chuckles]. Oh dear, excuse me.
AS: Yeah of course [pause]. Did you have to learn other things that you hadn’t learned in training when you were actually preparing for operations? Things like Z-procedure, using the wireless for landing? Did you get involved with that at all?
PF: I wasn’t involved with that at all. [Pause] my main job was with the navigator really, ‘cause we were training for long distance stuff with Lancs, ‘cause that’s where we were destined to get onto Lancaster squadron where we, which we were, we went to I should say, so henceforth, I was on Lancs until the end of the war I suppose, [pause] but it was just like that up there [chuckles].
AS: Right, we’ll pause the tape for a little while if that’s okay –
PF: I’m sorry, you’ll what?
[Tape paused and restarted]
PF: [Unclear] – with my logbook –
AS: Peter, I’d like to go back to the OTU a bit –
PF: Yeah, that’s fine, I’m going back to [unclear] if I can find it, Bottesford, so back still further [long pause, chuckles]. Oh dear, there’s a note I’ve written here, the mess and the modern, and the modern obliterations in this logbook, are necessary because my son Tim, when he was a little boy, pretended he was like his father and started filling my, filling all the bits and pieces in the logbook [laugh] ‘cause there’s a mess. So, I, I had to put a note in there about that. So, what are we, am I –
AS: We’re looking up OTU on the Wellingtons.
PF: Oh right, oh gosh –
AS: You alright?
PF: Yeah, in a minute. I’ve just got, my back was killing me. Ah, oh. So, OTU, that would be 1942, oh gosh this is going back a bit [turning pages], October ’42, yeah, I’m getting near [long pause]. Here we are, 25 OTU Finningley, 16th of September 1942.
AS: That’s your first flight at the OUT, is it?
PF: Yep –
AS: As a crew?
PF: As a crew, yeah.
AS: Yeah. And did your captain immediately take you off as a crew, or did he do some flying with somebody else first?
PF: Oh no, we all met as sprogs, nobody, no crews – we were assem – we were all, we were all assembling in a very big hall, and we got given four, five hours to crew up, and how did I crew up? Only because of being a Norfolk man, because Dennis Claxton was a baker at Ormesby, came along in his old broad Norfolk accent and said, ‘hello Peter, will you fly with me?’ I thought, oh my God, and I said, ‘yes of course I will’, and as I said, cause that’s how we crewed up, and I flew with him right through the war really. He was a good pilot. Claxton, his father was a baker at Ormesby.
AS: Were you all sergeants to start with?
PF: Yes, then I became a flight sergeant, and among the very few members of aircrew as a wireless operator, I had to take examinations would you believe, to get any, any promotion, in the wireless world of course, and until I became a grade one, I couldn’t get any promotion, so I was, I was messed about a bit. However, I got, I did it and I got my promotions and I became a flight sergeant, and then I was commissioned, and so I, and a signals leader, so I never looked back really. I had a good life, I enjoyed, particularly while I was at Mildenhall, this is after the war, this was in between tours, it wasn’t after the war. I finished my first tour and I was about to go back on my second tour at Mildenhall. I was near to home, I was near my wife, who lived just outside in a place called Ownedge, just outside Bedford, and so I was quite happy there really.
AS: You’ve still got your logbook open at the OTU, how much, how much flying did you do? Can you track that back?
PF: Yeah, well, I’ll tell you in a minute, I did [long pause], oh that’s the [unclear] synopsis, Finningley. Was that, Jane?
AS: Yes.
Jane: Sorry –
PF: At 25 OTU Finningley, I did [pause], there’s loads of it, oh dear, all at sea, yeah, one hour and half hours [long pause] I did twenty, in this instance, it was twenty-nine daylight and six at night. So this has, this has got to be more. [Pause] oh here we are, Bircotes now, so that was the next station, still on OTU, so that puts me up to ninety-five, nearly one hundred hours at OTU.
AS: Wow.
PF: And so it goes on. Oh, this was on the conversion, and then I went – a hundred and fifteen hours, including the OTU on Wellingtons and conversion on Manchesters to Lancasters, ‘cause it was only fourteen hours [chuckles], oh God.
AS: Were you a –
PF: What we, what we looking for do you know?
AS: Well, we’ve answered it actually, the hours, yeah –
PF: Oh, have we? Oh, fair enough. It was a bit complicated, looking up logbooks.
AS: Yeah. Were you straight wireless or did you do air gunner training as well?
PF: I did very little air – I didn’t want anything to do with air gunnering. I was quite happy with signals and I was, I was, would be a signals leader and things like that, so I, quite honestly, I had nothing to do with gunnering. I perhaps should have been a gunnery leader but I didn’t want to know [chuckles].
AS: That’s fair. Did you do any bulls-eye exercises?
PF: Oh yes, lots of bulls-eyes.
AS: What did they involve?
PF: Pardon?
AS: What did they involve?
PF: Long night cross country runs, let’s just look back. OTU Finningley that would be [pause], just give you an idea how long they were, ooh er [long pause], look I’ve got notes everywhere [long pause]. Why are logbooks so complicated when you look back through? Bottesford, that’s all good, I want training [long pause].
AS: No, so the bulls-eyes were at Bottesford were they?
PF: What, just a minute, I’ll just try and get back to Bottesford, I should be there in a sec, because I remember writing – oh that’s 1660 Conversion Unit, that was after that, so it’s got to be here. Bulls-eye here we are. I did a bulls-eye [pause] with Warrant Officer Buzz [unclear] as pilot [pause], five and a half hours from RAF Bircotes which is a satellite at Finningley. Oh you know it, don’t you?
AS: Yeah.
PF: Yeah, so that’s it. Well, that was when I was first flying with Dennis Claxton, who was my pilot during the, during the Lancs time, who lives out here at, he was a baker at Hemsby.
AS: Was, this was winter time, wasn’t it? OTU and HCU?
PF: Yeah, it was 15th of November, yeah.
AS: Yeah. Did the weather cause many problems, many interruptions, or many losses? Did you lose many aircraft in training?
PF: We, yes, we did, because of bad navigation. We didn’t have the things like Gee and that then, and navigation was pretty [pause], what’s the word –
AS: Haphazard?
PF: Basic, yeah. The, you hadn’t got the, what you had later, the radar bit, the Gee box, to get your fixers. No, I was there as a radio operator and I had to get my navigator fixers on numerous occasions, you know. Get a WT fix.
AS: And what speed did you get down to? How quickly could you do that?
PF: Well that took an age, it used to take them an age to wind my training aerial out for a start, and then there was the getting through, well it would take me about half an hour to get a fix I should think. Main time spent cranking the bloody lot of, the aerial in because it was airmen dear, and that means I had to have a training aerial. You’re nodding your head as if you understood [chuckles]. Oh dear, that’s history, that’s the first time anybody’s asked me that question, you know, but –
AS: It must have been hard work in flying kit and on your knees, was it? Winding down?
PF: Yeah, that wasn’t, in the cockpit you had to – it was usually in the, the winding gear was in the panelling of the aeroplane, and that was pretty knuckling, what’s the word [pause], knocking the skin off your knuckles –
AS: Grazing your knuckles, yeah. Did you ever lose one? Forget to wind it up?
PF: No, I didn’t. I must admit, I never, I always – because we had to write it in on the log, and we got seriously chastised, if we hadn’t done it and so we were always very careful, ‘cause they said they were gonna start charging us for any aerials that we lose, and there were not a lot of chaps lost them. What’s that, dear?
Jane: Actually that’s, I haven’t seen that before. I can’t remember the actual picture; I don’t know where the original is –
PF: Oh my God, this is ancient. That was one of the first pictures taken, when, oh God, what was it? When we first joined the Old Ed fifty, 541, my wife’s name was Edna, she was called Ed, and of course up there, it was ED541, so that was Ed-541, that one [chuckles]. So, four-six-seven Wimpies away –
AS: So that on the wall, I understand now, that on the wall is a painting of your aircraft, A-Able isn’t it?
PF: That’s right, yeah.
AS: Now I understand.
PF: Yeah, that was my, that was my first aeroplane that we were allocated for, on operations, here we are, ED541 July 1943, now that’s, that must have been that picture then, yeah, ‘cause I started operating in nine, nine, July, August, yeah that’s right. Oh dear, I get confused about these dates –
AS: We can go through your logbook later for the, for the operations if you like. When you were training, perhaps moving from the OTU to the HCU, did you start meeting equipment in operational aeroplanes that you hadn’t seen before?
PF: Oh yes.
AS: Can you tell me about that?
PF: We had, well not so much from the HFDF from the normal 11-54-55 Marconi stuff that I was using for Morse and communication generally, that was the same, that never altered, the things that were altering were the Gees and H2S, and all the up-to-date radar equipment, that was always changing, but that had nothing to do with me, I was quite happy with my, my Morse code [chuckles].
AS: Did you have things like Fishpond to look after?
PF: Yes, we did, but I didn’t have to look after it, the navigator looked after that. It was, he, we didn’t have it at – we were training on, with it, we never used it on operations or anything like that, but we did, we did have it, that was H2S two-three-one, I can’t remember the damn things now. [Pause] I would have remembered had I had to operate it, but I didn’t have to operate it. I had enough work to do of my own.
AS: It’s quite busy, was it? You didn’t just take off and fly round and come back again?
PF: Oh no, no, I mean, you had to take your broadcast every half hour, and that was numbered so you had to make sure you got that down in your logbook, erm, oh yes there was, there was never a dull moment, not where a wireless operator was concerned, because you were busy nearly all the time, from the time you took off to the time you landed.
AS: So, what sort of things would you be, would be coming in and going out? Position reports or-
PF: For start, things coming in would be your half hourly broadcast, which you had to rec – you had to log, and that was usually [unclear] text, it was numbered, and then after that, it was mainly work. We were always given exercises to do and, with ground stations, with, in particular DF stations, getting QDFs, QDMs, all that sort of thing, and, so there was never a dull moment where I was concerned. As a matter of fact, I suppose I was pleased in a way, because I had plenty to do, I didn’t have a chance to think about anything else. The navigator always kept me busy.
AS: When you knew you were posted to Bomber Command, how did you feel?
PF: Well, I was pleased in a way because we were told we were going onto Lancs, and the Lancaster had just been introduced, so everybody was keen to get onto a Lanc squadron, and as it happened, I was lucky and we got on one, and that was, that was quite good. So that was, that answers your question doesn’t it really?
AS: Yeah. When you were crewed up, formed as a crew, you were all sergeants, were you living together in a mess, or in huts or –
PF: Oh yes, we all lived in – there was, there was an aircrew sergeants mess, because all aircrew were sergeants then, not when I first joined up and flew, there was an LAC erm, yes there was a special mess for the aircrew sergeants.
AS: And did you live as a crew?
PF: Pardon?
AS: Did you live all together as a crew, or –
PF: Oh yes. When we first crewed up, we were always messed together in the same, and always, always in the same hut, and that went on for, through the OTU, through the conversion units when we went from Wellingtons to Lancasters [pause], to when we arrived at the squadron and converted onto Lancasters.
AS: Did it get [pause] –
PF: Sorry?
AS: Did it get too much sometimes, being with the same people all the time, in the air and on the –
PF: No, we were very pleased in a way that we had our own crew, we were like a family really, and I wouldn’t have had it any other way really. Dennis, my pilot, was, lived at, he had a, he was a baker at Ormesby, Hemsby and his wife and my wife were very good friends, and we were all very close knit, we were close knit as a crew. Yes, that was all, that was all good fun really, if you could call it fun.
AS: What were the losses like during training? Were there many aircraft lost?
PF: Oh no, there wasn’t. We were, touching wood, no, there were very few losses while we were training. There were losses when, for example, on OTU, on operational training units where crews got lost and went down in the mountains somewhere you know, if we, if we were doing foreign cross countries and things like that where we did for training. So yes, that used, that used to happen, but not, not very often fortunately.
AS: Mhm. Did you form close links with your ground crew as well as your aircrew mates?
PF: Oh yes, oh yes, we did. We have a very – while we were on operations, I, we, we flew on ops from Bottesford near Nottingham, and we got very close to our ground crews. We used to entertain them a lot, and we used to go out, always meet in the pubs and things like that, and yes, that was, yes, we were, answering your question, yes, we were quite close.
AS: Whose aeroplane was it? Was it your aeroplane or their aeroplane?
PF: Well, that depends, it was theirs in their camp and then ours in our camp.
AS: How did they maintain it? Was it mostly working outside?
PF: Oh yes, it was all outside. They did the daily inspections, the special inspections, and that was all done on the, what do you call it, the dispersal on the airfield.
AS: So, what, what was the daily routine before, before flight? What would you do before flight with your equipment?
PF: Well, I had, I had to check the, all the radio equipment, intercom, anything which was radio or radar, I had to check it worked alright. And the radio, the RT, the radio telephone part.
AS: So, I think we’ve done quite a bit about OTU and HCU. Did you say your HCU, you were actually on Manchesters?
PF: Well, I flew on Manchesters – when I finished on, let me give you the story, when we finished operational training on Wellingtons, we knew we were going to be posted to a conversion unit because we were going to go onto heavy bombers, and we knew that before we got onto them we would have to fly Manchesters, that was the Lanc with two engines if you can perhaps remember, and, so we went onto Lancs – onto Manchesters and then Lancs in that, in that order and that all went quite smoothly. I must say, it was, it was exciting going onto a Lancaster after a bloody old, twopy, old Wimpy, [pause] it was like getting into a – well as Dennis our pilot said, it was like getting into a Spitfire, though he’d never flown a Spitfire [chuckles]. He guessed as much because the Lanc was so much faster than the Wimpy, and more manoeuvrable of course.
AS: When you were learning to fly the Lancaster, before you go to the squadron, was the, was the aeroplane to an operational standard, with all the equipment that was in it?
PF: Oh yes.
AS: Okay. Did you have to learn different operational techniques as well as this equipment when you were at the HCU, or had your training taken care of the –
PF: Oh yes, yes it did –
AS: It did. So, you were –
PF: Pretty well [unclear] up, yeah.
AS: Gemmed up with the operational techniques –
PF: Yep, yeah indeed.
AS: Okay. So, did you pass out of the HCU? Was there a parade?
PF: Er, no, there wasn’t. We were – it was just very ordinary; we were only five or six weeks from OTU to HCU. I was at Swinderby – God, we were there and we were gone and we were on the squadron. As a matter of fact, we were nearly operating, it was that quick. Much to our horror, but there –
AS: Shall we pause it there for a moment?
PF: Okay.
[Tape paused and restarted]
AS: This is a taped interview with Flight Lieutenant Peter Fitt, carried out by Adam Sutch, on the 19th of May 2015 for the International Bomber Command Centre. Peter Fitt was on 467 Squadron for his first tour of operations, and perhaps Peter, I could, I could start by asking what happened when you came to the squadron before you went on ops, when you arrived as a crew?
PF: Right, well, first of all, I want to go back a bit to OTU, Operational Training Unit, where we crewed up. We all arrived there as individual pilots, navigators and wireless operators, air gunners, and – [interrupted] – is somebody coming?
Other: Sorry, would either of you like a hot drink?
[Tape paused and restarted]
AS: Right, let’s start again Peter shall we, now the tea lady’s gone –
PF: Yeah, yeah, you carry on –
AS: You were going back to the OTU when you crewed up, just before you got on the squadron.
PF: Yeah, yeah, yes, and that was 1942 I believe, would that be right?
AS: ’42, ’43, yeah, I think, we did before, so you left, left –
PF: Yes, yes it would be ’42, because I started off – I did my ops in ’43, and this is OTU we’re talking about, yes ’42, August ’42.
AS: Yeah, okay. And what can you remember about your OTU time?
PF: My OTU time was a bit strange, we all arrived at the sta – were posted to this RAF Finningley actually, in Yorkshire, and we all mingled in the, hmm, whatever it was, an old hangar or something, and one officer came along and he spoke to us and said, ‘well I’ve got you all gathered here because we want you – this is the OTU and we want you to crew up, and that’s, it’s got to be up to you. You can mingle with each other and find a pilot and a pilot will find a wireless operator and the wireless operator will find an air gunner’ sort of thing, you just sort it out yourselves’, they don’t print one up to say you’ll fly with so and so, you just sort it all out, and you’re given two or three days to do that, which we did, and I, I crewed up quite easily because it was a Norfolk man, a Norfolk baker from Ormesby, he came over and said, ‘you’re Norfolk, aren’t you?’ I said – he’s real, broad Norfolk – I said ‘yes’ and ‘I am’, and he – I can tell you because he had a real broad Norfolk accent, and he said, ‘why, I’m a pilot’, and he said, ‘I was wondering whether you would, you would, as we’re Norfolkites, you can come be my wireless operator’, ‘yes’, I said, ‘I’d love to’, and in the meantime, he’d sorted out the rest of the crew, so there was five of us. We were crewing up for Wellingtons actually, at OTU, on which we – the aeroplane we did our OTUs on, and so that’s how I crewed up. And then we, we did three months there I suppose – this is RAF Finningley in Yorkshire, and then we were posted to – oh God, I can’t remember the name of the bloody place now, not Finningley, Swinderby, where we went, transferred to four engined aeroplanes, so that was the beginning on the, on the Lancaster episodes, the aeroplanes we flew in for the rest of the war. Now that was, that was, that was rather all good fun, well wasn’t good fun it was bloody dangerous but, but, erm, it was all part of the adventure, wasn’t it?
AS: Exciting, exciting.
PF: So there, that was, so we crewed up and we, we stayed together all those years – we did a mini two tours of ops – this is late ’42 I’m talking about – and we were still flying in ’44, ’45 together, and, and the war came to an end and we kept meeting you know, ‘cause of, Den was a, he was a baker from Ormesby actually, and we used to – we all got, you all get very, very friendly, you know, and the whole families become friendly, and so that was, that was quite a nice episode in my life. It was a bit dangerous for me, during ops but I, Dennis was a good pilot and the rest of the crew were good, and we were, yeah, that was, that was quite an exciting time. I often think back on it, and we, we have our crew reunions still, and that’s jolly nice to get together again.
AS: What sort of skipper was Sergeant Claxton, Dennis Claxton?
PF: What sort –
AS: Yeah, was he a disciplinarian, or relaxed, or?
PF: No, no, he was a typical, what did we say, ordinary bloke who liked driving, a chauffeur if you like, he was conscientious, he always knew what he wanted, he always knew what to ask the navigator, he always knew what to ask us all actually, if he wanted to know anything, and, and yeah, he was quite knowledgeable, and a good pilot. That’s what we were after, we wanted someone who really knew the aeroplane and could throw out a boat when, if we were attacked or anything like that, and he was that good, so we were happy. As a matter of fact, I was a – no, poor Dennis died five or six years ago, his wife is still alive, and she comes and sees me here sometimes which is, which is rather nice.
AS: Absolutely, continuity.
PF: And, and of course – my wife, well she’s dead now, but my wife used to like Iris, which was Dennis’, the pilot’s wife, and they became very friendly – well, we all became friends actually.
AS: So, you finished HCU on Manchesters and Lancasters, and –
PF: I, I finished what?
AS: HCU. Heavy Conversion Unit.
PF: Yeah.
AS: On Manchesters and Lancasters was it?
PF: Yeah, Manchesters and Lancs, yeah.
AS: Yeah. And then you were posted to F –
PF: This, this was at Swinderby where we, we, we er went onto four engines, in the Lanc, and from Swinderby. And from Swinderby we, we – now what, I’m just trying to think of what that was called, when you converted to four engines, not a confighter, it was, it had a, it had a special name –
AS: HCU was it? Heavy Conversion Unit?
PF: Heavy Conversion, well done, you, you’re a gen-king you know.
AS: [Laughing] just, just lucky.
PF: Yeah, yeah on HCU –
AS: HCU, yeah.
PF: And, and Dennis converted to – and he took to the Lancs, he thought it was a great aeroplane, and he was a good pilot, and erm, so that, and we were together all that time. On two tours.
AS: On the aeroplane, did you feel a very great difference when it was loaded and not?
PF: No, no. It was a bit – Dennis used to say it’s a bit, you know, he had to be a bit more careful on takeoff because there was a lot more power, and they used to have to – he said, ‘I’m not supposed put, to go into S-gear’, but he said, ‘I bloody will go into S-gear’, ‘cause he said, ‘I wanna get off safely’, and so he did, that – that S-gear was. It’s called S-gear was a special gear that you, you put the throttles in and that connects to the engine [chuckles], and as the throttles are connected there it does something, it gives you that extra power –
AS: More power, yeah. So, you were posted to 467 Squadron I think?
PF: Yes. We went to – we were posted to – we finished Swinderby, that’s Conversion Unit, and we were posted to [slight pause] Bottesford and, near Nottingham, where we were – joined an Australian squadron, 467 Squadron, and I was with them for a complete – I did my first tour there with them.
AS: Did it feel like an Australian squadron? Were many of the aircrew Australian?
PF: They were nearly, they were nearly all Australian, yes it did feel like, you know – that’s a nice way of putting it, they were real Aussies and that was, that made it rather nice. And erm, so I was very pleased I served on an Aussie squadron and [pause] it was, it was nice, and – what is the word when you’re a mixture, I can’t think of a name but it was, it was very good. And I, I enjoyed myself there, as one can enjoy yourself while you’re risking your bloody neck at night, but it was, that was – I had a very good crew, Dennis Claxton, my baker from Ormesby, he was good, he was a good pilot [pauses] and I hoped I was an average radio operator for, get my navigator some good bearings.
AS: You brought them back.
PF: Brought them back? Oh yeah.
AS: When you were on the squadron, did you do a lot of training flying still?
PF: Did I what?
AS: Do a lot of training flying still, while on the squadron?
PF: No, no, no. The only training you did on the squadron – well it was training I suppose, ‘cause they were called training flights, and that was, you would do cross countries, mainly for navigation, for the navigator and the wireless operator and, for the pilot of course, so that was what we did, yes. Cross countries. We used to call them – they were called bulls-eyes and you used to do a lot of bulls-eyes. Well, they were good really because they make you accurate at, and careful what you’re doing.
AS: Were the skies full of aeroplanes doing the same thing, over England?
PF: Over where, not –
AS: Over England, while you were training. Did you find it really crowded skies, or?
PF: No, no, ‘cause I was trained at night. I was, I was, we were trained for night flying, and we did our training at night, so we didn’t really see a lot of other aeroplanes anyhow. The only time you saw them was when you were taking off and when you joined the circuit to land, when you got back. But that was, that was good training, and well I, I mustn’t say I enjoyed it – that’s not quite the right word, but it was interesting, and I was quite happy [chuckles], I had a good crew, our Dennis was a good pilot, and [pause] we, we survived.
AS: Did you encounter night fighters at all?
PF: Yes, yes, we were, we were attacked several times, mainly by Junkers 88s actually. I thought they [unclear], we thought they’d been Messerschmitt 109 Es and Fs but it wasn’t, it was, we were always attacked by Junkers 88s, which is quite a heavy aircraft is a – it’s nearly as a big as a Wellington, and we just couldn’t imagine them using them as night fighters but they were.
AS: But obviously not brought down, your pilot’s skills and your gunner’s skills –
PF: No, no we evaded all attacks, and the gunners and that, we didn’t – the gunners didn’t shoot any down, any attackers down but I think they were sufficiently awake enough and aware to let the German know that we were around, we knew he was there, sort of thing.
AS: How about the – I know it wasn’t your trade, but how about the navigation equipment when you were doing your first tour? Did you have Gee and H2S by then?
PF: Ooh yes, we had Gee, ooh yes, I had – well I know I was a wireless op, but I had to know all, how to use the Gee and the H2S and all those sorts of things, which were very good, I mean we’d all, could literally be lost without, without them, and they were inc, incredibly good. H2S in particular.
AS: Mhm, did –
PF: Now don’t ask me what H2S stands for, because I don’t know, I never knew, I never did ask. I bet you’ve got to tell me actually –
AS: Not at all, now I don’t, I don’t know, I don’t know. In your logbook here, you’ve got a, an Astra recall, or Astro recall, as a, do you know what that’s all about?
PF: Ah yes, that was [interrupted]. Is somebody [unclear].
Other: Hiya, [unclear], I’ve come to change your water jug.
PF: Okay, alright.
Other: Thank you.
PF: Thank you. Erm, what were we talking about, Astra recall? The, they, they’re two separate words actually. Astra meaning we were doing navigation by stars, by, and what was the other word?
AS: Recall.
PF: Recall, recall was to do with diversions and things like that, but that, that’s what that was. Astra navigation, the navigator didn’t like it and I had to help him and I wasn’t keen on it either. The, the, when you’re in cramped conditions and, you’ve got to keep referring to tables and cross referencing all the time makes – it’s hard work.
AS: Hmm. From your station in the aeroplane, could you see very much? Could you see out? Did you want to see out?
PF: Well, yes, I did want to – I liked to see out, there’s something – it’s nice to know that the world is passing by and if you were being attacked, you see it coming. Well, you know, I sat just behind the [pause] wireless operator, well, well you can’t quite see, there was a, there was an astrodome just behind the main cockpit coppola, well that’s what, that’s where I sat under that. That’s why there’s – there was always good light there. That’s where the warmth was, and it was, that was a good position, next to the navigator and course we used to work together.
AS: What were your fears on, on ops really at night?
PF: What was what?
AS: Your fears on ops?
PF: Well, well my fears were pretty awful really, I dreaded it. Well I think we all did, that was, it was alright, go to briefing and you, you were told the target and what to do and what not to do, and that’s frightening when you know the target, ‘cause it was usually a hotspot, and warned about night – it’s all very alarming, but once you get airborne, you’re, thing’s aren’t quite so bad until you get attacked [chuckles], but on the whole I, we were, we were very fortunate, we were, I mean we were only attacked once by night fighters. Used to get, we used to get anti-aircraft [unclear] of course, but the dread of course were night fighters ‘cause the Germans had a very good set-up.
AS: Could you sense or see other aeroplanes in the bomber stream around you?
PF: No, but you knew they were there because of the, of the turbulence you know, and the, and the airmen being in, being in people’s prop turbulence that used to, used to shake you about a bit. That’s the only indication you, you, you had. We were attacked two or three times but we – the gunners were alert enough to shoot away as it were.
AS: I see your first operation was to the Gironde in France –
PF: That’s right, yeah.
AS: What were you doing there?
PF: Laying mines. That, that – all freshmen aircrew, their first, their first raid over enemy territory was a gardening trip, and gardening was laying mines [chuckles], and the Gironde was one that, that was my first, that was my first trip, and that was, that was laying mines in the Gironde River, just off Bordeaux actually.
AS: So, these would be solo trips, would they? Just send one aircraft to, to lay mines, or?
PF: Well, well no, there would be, there would be squadrons doing it, and, and, but it wasn’t mass [pause], wasn’t mass operations, but there were several aircraft doing it, to keep their, their [pause] fighters, things, alive.
AS: Hmm, yeah. Another thing you’ve got here is SBA, local flying, is that standard beam approach?
PF: Yeah, yeah.
AS: Did that involve you at all, or, as the wireless man, or?
PF: No, it didn’t involve me in any shape or form, even though I was the wireless operator. It was, it was only the bomb aimer and the pilot’s concern because the bomb aimer was the first, virtually the second pilot because we didn’t carry a second pilot on Lancs, but we, but the bomb aimer took the part of the second pilot [chuckles].
AS: Okay. And did, he knew enough to fly the aeroplane?
PF: He knew enough to fly the aircraft. Whether he would have had enough – I don’t think Taffey would have been able to land, land it, but he would get you back, and you could do a ditch in the sea if you wanted – if you couldn’t land.
AS: Could I talk about some of the aids? Did you have any contact with Darky?
PF: Well, that, that rings a bell, Darky – now that was to do with RT, wasn’t it?
AS: Yeah, yeah.
PF: Now, now what was Darky? Oh gosh that’s right, on the [pause] forefront of my mind [pause] –
AS: Darky was local transmitters at, at observical posts and aerodromes, and if you were lost you could call up –
PF: Yes, yes oh God, yeah, I remember. I remember, yes, Darky very well.
AS: And did you use it?
PF: No, no, fortunately we never had to [pause]. We had a good navigator and we had Gee which we used to use a lot, and we erm, we didn’t have to use anything else. And none, none of us did courses on that while we got through.
AS: What – sounds like a silly question really, but what was the tension like as you approached the target?
PF: What was the what?
AS: The tension like in the crew as you approached the target?
PF: Well, as a matter of fact – it’s funny you should ask that question because that does cross my mind many times, ‘cause nearly everybody asks you that question. The funny part about it is, that when you’re approaching the target, all fear seems to have gone and dissipated, and you, you, everybody was looking out to find, to look at, to find the target and see what the defences were like and what attack we were going to do, and, and bearing in mind. what you’d been told to do, so yes, yes, that was, that was – rephrase your question because I was getting a bit out of touch with it.
AS: No, no I just – I wondered whether the tension really grew as you were approaching the target, but you’ve told me that the fear left you.
PF: Oh, I see, you mean as you approached the target, did the tension increase? No it didn’t, funnily enough, it rather dissipated, mainly I suppose because you, you were there, you’d seen what you were going to do. The defences hadn’t erupted and all you got was a target which was coloured red, which had obviously been bombed earlier, and that was, that was it, it never crossed our, never crossed our minds. Well, it never crossed my mind because I was a wireless operator and I was busy, and I never, I never even looked out. I was, I had, I was busy on the – ‘cause we had all sorts of messages coming in and that, so I had to listen all the time.
AS: Yes, so you listened on the main sets. Did you also control the RT, or, the radio telephone? You were on the radio telephone as well.
PF: Yes, yes, we were but the pilot used the RT, radio tele, used that for landing and takeoff purposes –
AS: Okay.
PF: But apart from that, there were, there were, the RT was never used.
AS: Hmm. How about the master bomber?
PF: Oh, the master bomber? Yeah well, we, that [pause] he was, it was all done by, by voice actually, and – to be quite honest, we were never impressed with it. It was a bit of a, of guidance you know, but sometimes he was a bit out, and sometimes he couldn’t find the place, but, on the whole, I suppose it worked because the, with their know-how and, and our own know-how.
AS: And you could hear it? You could hear what the master bomber was saying?
PF: Oh yes, it was very clear. Clear as crystal.
AS: Hm. So you were, you were on 467, that’s 5 Group, isn’t it?
PF: That was in 5 Group, yeah.
AS: 5 Group were a bit special, weren’t they?
PF: They were the, THE group, yeah. If you hadn’t have said that, I was going to say that.
AS: [Laughing] Sorry.
PF: But I’m glad you said it, so, you knew about it.
AS: Yeah.
PF: Yes, we used to get all the posh jobs as we’d call them, the posh and dangerous ones.
AS: And one of those that you got was Peenemunde.
PF: Peenemunde, yes, I was on that raid.
AS: Could, could you tell us a little bit about that?
PF: [Pause] yeah, yeah, I’ll tell you [long pause]. Oh, you’ve got my logbook there.
AS: Yeah, yeah, I got –
PF: I just gotta think of the date, what was it, was it August something, wasn’t it?
AS: I’m just looking actually –
PF: It’s ‘40, ’43 [pause.
AS: Do you know, I can’t find it. You’ll probably quicker than I would. Berlin, Berlin [long pause]. There we go, August, spot on, 12th of August.
PF: Yeah, I remember that very well. That was the [unclear], that was the most effective raid of the war, you know, everybody was so accurate, and trained to be accurate, and it was a very efficient raid result.
AS: How much did they tell you at briefing about Peenemunde and why you were going there? What did they tell you?
PF: Well, I’m just trying to think [pause]. We were told of course that, that, that they were specialising in speciality model aircraft to bomb London, and well, we knew that and that did make us more attentive to detail and sorted out, which we did.
AS: Is it true that the, the aircrew were told that if they didn’t do it the first time, they’d have to go back the next night, or is that just a story?
PF: Oh yeah that happened to me several times. Air-chief Marshal, our boss man in 5 Group was, erm, oh God, why has his name escaped me –
AS: Ralph Cochrane?
PF: Pardon?
AS: Was it Cochrane?
PF: Was it who?
AS: Cochrane. Ralph Cochrane.
PF: Oh yeah Ralph Cochrane, that’s the chap, well done, you know more about what I did –
AS: I wouldn’t say that sir, I wouldn’t say that at all.
PF: I just forgot, I just forgot his name, and, and, he was, he wanted you to do everything right, and he was like that and, ‘if you don’t bloody well get it tonight, you’ll go tomorrow night and you’ll go the next night’, and so on, he talked just like that. It was if he was talking to a class of kids, you know, and, yes, he was a very efficient man, and we had – we didn’t applaud him, we appreciated him, his air [unclear] and things like that. Yeah, I remember the briefing for the Peenemunde raid.
AS: Is it like we see on the films, where everyone sits down and the station commander comes in and they pull back the curtain – was it like that?
PF: It was like that, yeah, yeah, but it wasn’t quite so, not quite so dramatic as that [laughs] you know.
AS: How many briefings were there?
PF: Well, that was just – there was only one main briefing, but the navigators, the pilots and the navigators always had to go half an hour early to have their separate briefing, which was – I don’t know why, and the rest of the crews went afterwards to the main briefing. But we all had – as I was signals and we all had our separate briefings by our own leaders.
AS: So, what was the procedure then? The aeroplanes would be test flown, flying test –
PF: Would be –
AS: You’d have a flying test, a night flying test with the aeroplane –
PF: Oh yes, and then an active course, yes, yeah.
AS: Yeah, and then you’d have your briefing, and –
PF: Yes well, the, the, it wasn’t quite as close as we are saying it. For example, if, if the operations were on the Friday night, or any particular night, you would do your flying – we had a special word for them and it escapes, it escapes me, not NFT, something like that – you’d go and do that in the morning somewhere and check everything was alright, and that would be your, your [unclear] practical briefing. And then we’d go to the main briefing and having done all that we, you knew exactly where you were.
AS: And then you’d have, have a meal, or -
PF: We’d have a meal, our eggs and bacon, twice. Eggs and bacon before and eggs and bacon afterwards [laugh], and, yes so that was, that was a very exciting life but it was bloody dangerous, and you got, you get a bit worried about it, particularly if you’re married and that, but there.
AS: How did you get out to the aeroplane?
PF: We were taken out by, by bus, ministry, you know, Air Force busses. They were specially, they were specially made for that purpose. They used to take the crews. They, you had enough space for all the parachutes and the stuff to go inside your – me and my pigeons, I had to carry, we had to carry pigeons, that sounds good doesn’t it [chuckles], and, that, that was it. We would then be taken out to our aircraft, ground crew would be waiting for us, we would be ushered into our seats, and they would carry the stuff in for us, and that was that, and the pilot would get the engines started and run up and we’d all, we’d all do our bits and pieces. I’d do mine and away we go.
AS: Tell me about the pigeons. I mean, they weren’t to eat, were they?
PF: Pardon?
AS: They weren’t there to be eaten, were they? Tell me about the pigeons.
PF: [Pause] it was quite a joke really. They, it used to be one to tell your children. We had to carry pigeons and they’d say, ‘what, you had pigeons, did they tell you where to go Dad’ [chuckles]. I’d say, ‘yeah, we’d let them out and then we’d say Berlin and we’ll follow you’ [laughs]. What was I saying? Yes, we had, we had pigeons.
AS: Whereabouts did you keep them?
PF: What, my – I was responsible for them as the wireless operator, and right behind me were the armour-plated doors, which was ideal for me really, but behind the armour-plated door was a rest couch – oh I thought I saw them earlier – and erm, that’s where we used to place them on that, just right, they all fitted there nicely.
AS: So by the time you’d got to the aeroplane, was it all bombed up and fuelled up?
PF: Oh yes, it was, they were all done up in the morning, if you were taking off in the evening. All the bombing up – everything would have been ready in the morning. That was, that was very, very efficient, and then we would go to the briefing in the afternoon and then take off in the evening.
AS: Hm. Did you feel that you had enough fuel all the time, for the distances and trips that you –
PF: Oh yeah well, we had a, our engine – we all had, every crew had an engineer, and that was his responsibility to make sure that the bowsers had put the right amount of petrol in, and they got the [pause], they got it all laid on so that if the, if the pilot wanted to change engines or something, they did sometimes, that could all be done by stopping an engine and starting another up sort of thing.
AS: Okay.
PF: That was all very complicated but all was very well organised. Everybody knew what they had to do.
AS: Yeah. So, you, you’d done your Gironde mine laying trip, and then you went to Saint Nazaire. Was that the same sort of thing?
PF: Yes, same thing, yeah.
AS: Dropping –
PF: Yeah, well I’m just trying to – why was that? It was because that was the – of course, Saint Nazaire is on the Gironde River, so that was, it was something to do with that trip.
AS: And then the big one, the Big B, operation to Berlin.
PF: Yeah. That was the Big B yeah, they were big trips. Dangerous ones, the losses were always heavy. Well, they were mainly night fighters – Hitler made sure that his beloved Berlin and all that area round there was well guarded by night fighters, which were the Junkers 88, which was a very efficient aeroplane, and they caused us proper problem.
AS: Hm. Did you lose a lot on the squadron to –
PF: Pardon?
AS: Did you lose a lot on the squadron to night fighters?
PF: No we didn’t, funnily enough. We used to have losses to ack-ack and the odd fighter, but that was, there was nothing catastrophic from fighters.
AS: But over the period you were on ops from March 1943, were the losses heavy? Severe?
PF: They were. I wouldn’t say they were severe, they were heavy. I didn’t know what the statistics are on this, I can’t remember them, but – oh you could, people used to hear it on the radio and they would say something about aircraft missing; that used to be an indication of what the night was like. Some nights were pretty awful, mainly due to night fighters.
AS: And could you get a sense of this at the squadron as well? People just disappearing?
PF: Yeah.
AS: Hm. And then, then two days later, you went to Berlin again, and it says ‘bombs dropped on Flensburg’. What was that all about?
PF: Oh yeah, that was a, that was a – that wasn’t a catastrophe, but it was an embarrassment. Let me think now. Oh yes, we were set off and we were briefed to bomb Berlin, and crossing over, oh gosh, what’s the name of, Jutland area, you know –
AS: Oh I – Denmark there.
PF: Denmark?
AS: Yeah.
PF: Yeah. The, there, to the right of Denmark is Flensburg, which is German obviously, and if you drifted off course, you got it in the neck from Flensburg. Well, that was what was happening. And yeah, that was a dicey old area, and we never, I never liked the Berlin trips, ‘cause that was, it was a long way there and you had to go through, like Flensburg, and so many other hazards, there was no sort of sitting back and relaxing and saying ‘oh well, let’s go’ [chuckles].
AS: Did you always feel yourselves well informed about where the German hazards were? Where the flack was –
PF: Oh yes we were. The briefing was very accurate and – no we never had anything, no faults to find with that.
AS: And how about –
PF: And our intelligence was very good too.
AS: How about the debrief when you got back? Was that – what happened in the debrief? Was that a long time or just very cursory or?
PF: No, no that was, it was done quite quickly. We, we just, we landed dead on time as always, found your way back to the debriefing room and sat yourself down at a table, and the debriefing officer would come along and start asking us the routine questions, and that was that, you know. Nothing in particular about it, we just wanted to get back to the mess and have a meal.
AS: Can you remember what –
PF: Our eggs and bacon [chuckles].
AS: Okay. Can you remember what some of the questions were? I know it’s a long time ago, but what were they interested in?
PF: They were interested in the concentration of anti-aircraft from the guns, and particularly the fighters. That’s what they were interested in, because they were becoming a menace, and to trace what airfield they were coming from so they could take care of them with a separate force. But that was the, that was the main thing was night fighters, and he had a very good, he was, Hitler had a very good night fighter force, or Goering I should say.
AS: A moment ago, you talked about getting back and landing dead on time. What was the procedure as you approached the English coast to return?
PF: What, what was the procedure? Well, well actually, we were on tracks that the briefing officer had given you and, so they always knew exactly where you were going to do. If you were off track as it were, you, I, we would just let them know that we were off track.
AS: And then you’d spot, what, you’d spot the pundit light for –
PF: Yeah, yeah, a pundit or a something, a light, strip of light and that would, you’d pick it up and that would give an indication. Everything was so well organised.
AS: You, when you got back to base, what happened then? When you were in the circuit, did they stack you up or, or?
PF: No, no they didn’t stack us up at all, they would get us down as soon as possible, which was right, and we would land and the transport would be there, the aircrew bus would be there to pick you up. We used to have a bus would you believe? And take us back to the debriefing. They’d sow us with coffee [unclear] and that was that. Everybody thankful to be back, having looked round the room to see who was missing [chuckles]. I’m laughing about it, I shouldn’t –
AS: Yeah, but as you said before, you lived in your self-contained crew world.
PF: Yeah.
AS: Yeah. This – you’ve got quite a lot of trips to, to Italy, and I noticed you –
PF: Yes, yeah. I did eight Italian trips.
AS: You got the Italian Star for that.
PF: What’s that?
AS: Was that what you got the Italian Star for?
PF: Oh yes.
AS: So, what were the Italian trips like? Did you go over the Alps?
PF: It was – mostly yes, mostly. Not all trips took us over the Alps but the majority did, and they were quite – we used to like the Italy trips, ‘cause they were quite uneventful. You had all that track across France and there were very few night fighters, which was, which was the problem, attacking Germany or France, and there were very little problems then. It wasn’t until we got nearer to the industrial areas that the night fighters, night fighter problem increased. [Knocking] come in.
Other: Peter, returning back with the water.
PF: Alright, yes, thank you.
Other: Here we are.
PF: Yes, thank you.
Other: You’re welcome.
AS: Yeah, so Italy was a long time but a comparatively easy trip, was it?
PF: Oh yes, the Italian trips, we [chuckles] used to like – when we’d arrive into the briefing room and you looked up on the wall and there’d be the big map up, and you’d see the, that Italy was the target, were the targets and sigh of relief because the, you know, going all the way across France, there were very few night fighters and, not until you got to the Italian area that they become concentrated. But Italy trips were always good. We always looked forward to those.
AS: Did you end up coming back in daylight from them, or was there enough time to –
PF: Mostly we got back in daylight, no in, at night time I should say, but we used to do – oh God, what were they [pause], we used to do trips and there was a name for them and that, that’s slipped my mind [pause]. They were virtually daylight raids, but we were given courses across Germany and France which, which weren’t defended heavily, but, yes, we used to, but that, on the whole we used to like these light trips as we called them [chuckles].
AS: And there were some others, some really difficult trips, some really difficult trips like the Ruhr trips, like Essen and –
PF: Oh yeah, the Ruhr trips were, Happy Valley as we called them, were very severe and strong. We used to hate Happy Valley, because the, the ack-ack concentration – Hitler had done it to please his own people actually, that all, the whole Ruhr Valley was saturated with anti-aircraft guns [pause]. But we did most, that was most of the operation with the, on the Ruhr Valley you know, Happy Valley – you see that? Oh God, handkerchief, oh there it is [long pause].
AS: Are there any particular moments that really stick in your mind of, of carrying out this campaign? Airborne moments?
PF: Well, I, I’m just trying to think. I had an idea you were going to ask me a question like that [long pause].
AS: Were any of you wounded at all?
PF: I was never, fortunately I was never wounded, I was never, we were never hit. We were knocked about a bit by German night fighters, but they weren’t very heavy attack, heavily, they weren’t heavy attacks because our gunners were good enough to keep them at bay. So no, to answer your question, no we, we, it wasn’t a problem. Thank God, because that could – he had an extremely good night fighter force.
AS: And you, you flew the same aircraft, A-Able?.
PF: On A-Able, yeah. There’s a painting of her up there. Er yes, we, we were fortunate enough to have our own aeroplane right through the, my tour.
AS: And did she always start on four engines and come back on four engines?
PF: Yeah –
AS: Mechanically very reliable, yeah?
PF: Yeah, but sometimes the pilot had to give an engine a rest, and we’d come back, perhaps come back on three, but on the whole we managed. Well, it’s nice to know we had – the old Lanc would fly well on two engines.
AS: And on, on takeoff, was that a particularly worrying time with –
PF: Was what?
AS: On takeoff, with, full of full and bombs and –
PF: Well, what, well yes it was, but it was a touch and go sort of thing. The, the tanks, the petrol tanks would be full up and the bomb racks would be full, so you had a, what did we used to call it, a maximum load, or it was called something else, a maximum effort I think it was called, and, and we managed to get through okay.
AS: Were you, had you got married by the time you were on operations?
PF: Pardon?
AS: Had you got married by the time you were on operations, on 467?
PF: I was, I was on operations in ’43, and no, I got married in ’44.
AS: Okay, so when you’d finished ops.
PF: No, and I – when I went back on my second tour, when the second, after the second front had started, that was in ’45, then, yeah I did my second tour, which was in ’45, yeah. I don’t know what when I was leading to, I’m sorry.
AS: No, no, we were talking about when you got married. Did you feel differently on your second tour, when you were married on ops?
PF: No, no I didn’t. We, you treated – it was a job, you know, and that’s how you looked at it, and kept your fingers crossed. I was very fortunate but I, when I, ‘cause I did, my first tour was pretty grim, but I wasn’t, but I wasn’t married then, but apart from that we had a reasonably efficient –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Fitt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Sutch
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-19
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFittP150519
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:49:04 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born in Norwich. His father was a head gardener and wanted him to follow that occupation and so refused to let him join the RAF. With the advent of war the situation changed and Peter volunteered at a recruiting station and after selection tests was accepted as a wireless operator. Peter completed his ground training at No. 2 radio school At RAF Yatesbury and air training at RAF Watton which ended with a passing out parade.
Sent to an operational training unit to fly Wellingtons, he remembers the high rate of losses due to accidents, particularly of flying into high ground. Crewed up at RAF Finningly in September 1942, he was converted onto Manchesters and then Lancasters at the heavy conversion unit at RAF Swinderby. He describes in detail the equipment available to him, which made for a very busy job, and remembers that all the codes were written on 'flimsies' which could be swallowed in an emergency.
Sent to 467 Squadron which, as a special unit, Peter felt were given the "posh and dangerous" jobs. He completed a full tour including minelaying to the Gironde and St. Nazaire, Berlin and also eight trips to Italy, which he considers were easy compared to 'happy valley', as the Ruhr valley was known . One special trip was to Peenemunde and the crews were warned that if they didn't do the job properly, then they would be sent back every night until it was completed. He recalls being attacked by night fighters but the gunners kept them at bay and so completed his full tour in the same aircraft, A-Able.
On completion of his tour Peter was commissioned and put in charge of the wireless flight until 1945 when he commenced his second tour which was terminated with the cessation of hostilities.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
France
France--Gironde Estuary
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Peenemünde
Italy
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Terry Holmes
Vivienne Tincombe
467 Squadron
aircrew
animal
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
briefing
crewing up
fear
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
mine laying
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bottesford
RAF Finningley
RAF Swinderby
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/914/11156/AKnottS151001.1.mp3
378d56e9297935f50b102ccca94f5736
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Knott, Sidney
S Knott
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Sidney Knott DFC (1268143 Royal Air Force). He flew 64 operations as an air gunner with 467 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Knott, S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: My name is Adam Sutch. I’m conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m interviewing Mr Sidney Knott. A Bomber Command aircrew member of 467 Squadron during the Second World War. Also present is his daughter Mrs Jean Mangan. Sidney, I’m really grateful to you for agreeing to this interview. Could we start by discussing your time before the war? Before you joined the Air Force. When you were growing up. Schooling and that sort of thing
SK: Yeah. Yeah. Well I was a, I was a youth of the 20s and 30s and I lived in Southend on Sea. I lived in Leigh on Sea which is in the borough of Southend on Sea, Essex. And [pause] things were quite, you know, you imagine what things were like between the wars. It wasn’t very [pause] My father was a joiner. He had his own business. He worked for his father and he, when grandfather died my father took his business over. Just a one man business. And my mother ran a fruit and greengrocery shop. And then when I came up, I left school at fourteen but I lost about fifteen months schooling when I was ten and eleven through an operation. And I worked in in the greengrocer’s shop. And then, of course in 1940, when invasion was imminent, where we lived notice was, I remember, I can see it now. It was on a Sunday and they put up notices on the shop’s windows and saying that we were to be prepared to leave within one hour and only allowed to take one suitcase with us. And as soon as people read this notice, well in twenty four hours from being a busy area full of people suddenly there was hardly, there was only the shopkeepers left. And the Battle of Britain was going on and my father came to me and said one day, well you know we had nothing to, had hardly any work to do because there was no people, many left there. And I used to do my paper round and that was how I got my pocket money. So my father came to me and he said one day, of course he was in the First World War and he was wounded twice and he was in the Essex Regiment. And when he got wounded the second time he was sent back to France in the Suffolks, and he come to me and he had a rough time in the army being wounded several times. And he, he come to me and he says, ‘You don’t want to go in the army.’ Because he was worrying about being called up. This was before I was eligible to be called up and he said, ‘You won’t get in the navy. You’d better see if you can get in the Air Force.’ So I said, ‘Alright.’ He said, because he said, my father was quite a proud man, he never went outdoors without a tie on and he used to say, ‘In the Air Force they wear a collar and tie all the time.’ So, [laughs] so he said, ‘See if you could get in the Air Force.’ So I found out they were, in Southend there was no recruiting for the for the Air Force in Southend so I had to get on a bus and go to Romford. And there was a, there was a recruiting office there, it recruited all sections and I, that’s how I joined the Air Force. And my education was very poor because I lost a lot of schooling and left at fourteen. I did do a little bit of after school work. You know, night classes when I was about sixteen to eighteen. And because I was, what was I when the war started? I was [pause] how old was I when the war started? Eighteen?
JM: Eighteen.
SK: Eighteen. That’s right. And so, you know, that was the background before then. That’s how I joined the Air Force. But they were recruiting for wireless ops at the time. This is ground wireless ops you see. And then I wasn’t good enough for that so he said, ‘We can have you for general duties.’ So I jumped at it and I joined the Air Force as a general duties wallah.
AS: In 1940.
SK: I got my number in 1940. I was sent home on deferred service and was actually called up on the, I think it was the 6th of January ’41. Went to Blackpool, you know, for to do my square bashing. And that was my early life. And then I was, after square bashing we were, a group of us were posted to Horsham St Faiths in Norfolk. And we were only there twenty four hours and they pushed us out to the satellite and we was on a, well we were sent to Blickling Hall. We was living in the cow sheds and things like that. In the outbuildings of Blickling Hall. But the airfield, the airfield was at Oulton. And it was just a grass airfield and we had two squadrons of Blenheims there that were really only just forming from being kicked out of France. And of course some of the crew, the ground crews were still wandering back after being got home from France and had a bit of leave and had been assessed as fit to go back to the squadron. And as I say the Blenheims were doing, that was 2 Group then and they were doing such things as Channel sweeps and things like that. And bombing the coastal ports like Brest and other French coastal docks and so on.
AS: Against the barges and things like that.
SK: Pardon?
AS: Against the barges and things like that.
SK: Oh yes. Yes. You see. That sort of thing. Yes. And then, while I was there doing all sorts of things I was put on, I was on the fire section while I was there and while I was on the fire section I had two duties. One was the fire section to look after Blickling Hall. And we had to eat at Blickling Hall. There was no, on this airfield, all there was on the airfield was two, about two Nissen huts where the fitters were and we had one little brick building where we had, there was no flying control. They had a duty pilot and he just used to have to log the aircraft as they took off and landed and that was his job. It was one of the aircrew that was grounded at the time and that was his duties. And I was put on a crash tender, and we used to stand alongside the duty pilot. There’d be the crash tender, the blood wagon side by side and we had to attend all, any crashes. We were, well I had to attend three crashes while I was there but that’s, that’s going to longer stories. But then, from there during the time, it came up on daily orders that we were to, they were recruiting for air gunners because in the pipeline four-engine bombers were — that was going to be the future. And so they thought, well I mean they had the Wellington bomber and they needed a gunner. And of course the Blenheim had three crew and they had a gunner on them. It was wireless op/gunner. And then the Wellingtons had, excuse me, Wellingtons had five crew with one gunner. But the wireless op was also a spare gunner. And they asked for volunteers so I volunteered and two of us went from this camp, were sent to Horsham St Faiths to see the station commander there.
AS: Who was that?
SK: I don’t know who it was at the time. I can’t tell you anyhow [laughs] I’ve got no record of that.
AS: No worries. Sorry. Go on.
SK: But we didn’t have to go, no test or anything like that and he said, ‘Oh you want to,’ he said, ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘Ok,’ and it was assigned to us and we awaited our call. And then we, that’s how we joined up. I didn’t have to pass any tests or anything there. And then from there we waited our call and it was the end of 1941. Somewhere about October I would have thought, may have been September, I was called to go to Regent’s Park in London because that was the recruiting centre. The initial centre for aircrew. And then from there we were sent to a, after a short course there we were issued with our white flashes. That means aircrew under training which we wore in our forage caps. And then we went down to St Leonards. Part of Hastings and we was in the big marina. Marine Hotel it was. It belonged to Southern Railway at the time but it was commandeered and we, we were posted there at the Initial Training Wing to do the ground work for an air gunner. And the initial gunners, we had quite an extensive course. We had to learn basic navigation. As regards to signals you had to learn the Morse code and read the lamp at, I think six words a minute and there was, you know, you had lots of extra duties. All to do with being a good crew member. And then when that came to the end of that course well of course I didn’t pass the maths you see. They said, ‘You failed on the maths.’ My maths. And of course I wasn’t very good at that sort of thing. So anyway our next posting to go on, they weren’t available to take us, that was to an air gunnery course, because the weather was bad and a sudden influx of people, there was nowhere to put them. So they said we are going to put you on an extended course to do — for several weeks we did just maths, drill and PT [laughs] And from there there was, I wasn’t the only one I must say, I was pleased about that, that didn’t pass on the first issue but they passed us on the second time. And they said, well, and then we were posted to a Gunnery School and I went to, to Manby up here in Lincolnshire to the 1 Air Armament School as it was called and I did my gunnery course there. And I passed my course at gunnery. This course. And I remember it because when we had to do, because Manby was very strict. A lot of bull at Manby. And on passing out parade we had to form on the parade ground where every Friday, every Friday we reported on the parade ground but this one was the passing out parade when you were awarded your brevet. And, and I remember I had to be marker because I was two thirds down the course. And so that’s my position. I passed two thirds down the course. But they were a grand lot of chaps. And then we passed out from there and then I was sent to, from there I was sent to an OTU and that was to Finningley in Yorkshire. I forget the number of the OTU but that’s where we went to. Finningley. And we had to do quite an extensive course there and that’s where I got crewed up. And our crewing up was quite funny really because there was quite a few of us sent to, there was about twelve gunners sent down there because most of these crews that were there we found out were Blenheim crews, which had three crews. They had a pilot, they had a navigator, called an observer and the wireless op/air gunner. And then they were posted to the OTU to take the conversion course on to Wellingtons. And then [pause] so they had to take on two more crew and that would be the rear gunner and a bomb aimer. Right. And the crewing-up procedure was, after about a fortnight because after the fortnight we were just doing section work where the gunners were in one place, pilots, engineers all in their own sections. Then we had to meet all together and the CO of the station said, ‘Well, now you’ve got to get crewed-up. So sort yourselves out.’ So we all just stood there and, you know one or two had got in mind who they wanted, you know to crew-up with and so on. But I remember one of the chaps, one of these gunner friends that I’d got to know said to me, ‘Well you’d better,’ you’d better, you know, ‘Get going.’ He said, ‘Otherwise you’ll be left with that young kid over there.’ You know, he was a pilot. ‘That young kid over there.’ Because he could see some of them getting crewed-up, ‘I’m crewed-up.’ But I’m not, I wasn’t one to push forward so I just waited. And then quite, at the end a chap come over to me and I see he was, he was a wireless op/air gunner and he said to me, he introduced himself like, and he said, ‘I’m Johnny Lloyd,’ and he said, ‘Would you like to join our crew as a gunner? And would you like to come and meet my pilot?’ So I said, ‘Oh yeah. Ok.’ You know. So that’s how I met my first pilot. That’s him there. And he was eighteen months younger than me. And that was the young kid [laughs] they said I’d be left with. And I’ve often thought afterwards of those twelve chaps that were there I wonder how many of us got through, you know. And, you know he was the young kid you’ve got to put up with so I was quite pleased about that. So that was our, so we did all our training there on the Wellington and then we had to go over to, now what was that place called? Near Bawtry it was. A satellite to Finningley, to do, to do cross country’s. Right. Where you, you’re left on your own to do the cross country’s, you know. That was big deals. And so we, that was about a three or four week course over there. Then you go back to Finningley afterwards and await a posting. Well, we waited at Finningley for quite, we were sent on leave then for a while and then when we got back to Finningley we were still hanging about. Finished our course, waiting for a posting and we was quite, there quite a long time and then suddenly it came through that we were posted to, to Scampton. Right. And so I thought oh yes, yes. This was, what’s the time now? It’s about, it’s about, I don’t know, May, June, July. Somewhere about July or August. Something like that. August perhaps, ’42. Yes. And he said, he said [pause] so we gets to, so we gets to Scampton and we find out that Scampton where we are forming a new crew, a new squadron, sorry. A new squadron. And there was already two squadrons already there fully operating. And we was the juniors coming in and as I say, and we found out our first part of forming up we had no aircraft. We had no ground crew. But our leaders were there. We had some leaders. We had to get to know our leaders and our section commanders and so on and we got to know people for the first couple of weeks and then, then we were sent — we’d got to join this Flight. 1661 I think it was. Conversion flight. That was at Scampton. And it was only a grass airfield at Scampton and there were two fully operational aircraft there err squadrons there. 49 Squadron and 83 Squadron were there. And then we found out we’ve got to do this course because we were posted to 467 Squadron. An Australian squadron. And so anyway we, we trained on Manchesters and then after, of course Manchesters were the forerunners of the Lancaster but it only had the two engines. Well when they put the four engines on it they called it the Lancaster and took off the third fin to make it look nice. And so that, that was, you know that was how we got crewed-up there and of course when we were there from a Wellington crew we had to take on two extra people again to make a seven crew. So we had to take on an extra gunner and, and a flight engineer. And then we flew in the Manchesters and there was quite a few on the course there. And then we had to do some bullseyes. Bullseyes are mock operations where we, like mock, they were raid diversions in a way because we used to fly within reach of the Dutch coast and then turn back and come home. But you did everything as if you was going on an op and you would divert. We were diverters to draw the fighters up to us so the main force could creep in and perhaps go in through southern France. So we had a good training there and we used to come over to, of course Scampton as I said was still grass. But unknown to us we were going to be posted to Bottesford, right. Which is just in Lincolnshire but it’s in three counties. The actual airfield I think was in three counties because Bottesford was a very dispersed sort of airfield. So it was Leicester, Nottingham and Lincolnshire. The postal address I think was Nottingham. But we were quite, we were quite close to [pause] what’s the town called? Grantham.
JM: Grantham.
SK: Grantham. And so, anyway we used to go over to Woodhall Spa to do our landing on, on the runways because the satellite stations, as Bottesford was called was built during the war and they built them as dispersed stations. They realised the stations that were built during the war period in the 30s were all quite cramped and in one section they found that was a dangerous thing so they built these dispersal stations. Well, when they built them of course, I mean aircraft were going to be bigger so they wanted more space so they had bigger airfields. And so that’s why we went over to Woodhall Spa which was, had runways to learn the different way of landing on runways as to, to grass. And then, anyway when we got to the, we were [pause] got to Bottesford, we left Scampton a few days before Christmas. That’s ’42. And we first flew at Bottesford about two or three days before Christmas. We had a lot of training to do when we got to Bottesford because unknown to us, the ground crew, they’d sent new aircraft into Bottesford, new Lancasters, into Bottesford and they sent ground crew there to, to learn their trade on Lancasters. And they had a month to do it. Like we was learning at 1661 conversion flight. We were learning from the aircrew side. They were learning it from the ground crew side. And because we thought that how can we be a squadron with hardly any, with no aircraft. No ground crew. Anyway, so we got there and we, I talked to one chap and he said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘I’d only, I’d only been a mechanic on Magisters,’ which was a single engine aircraft. A little tiny thing, you see. And of course when he come to see the Lancaster, a great big thing, it frightened the life out of him [laughs] you see, and we had a lot to learn. Anyway, the squadron became operational and we operated from there. I finished my first tour and the squadron, the crew I was with we were the first crew to finish a full tour on 467. We, we, there was two other crews that we were quite friendly with. They finished one trip behind us so we beat them by three days. But we claimed that right to be the first then to finish a full tour. And that, that went on to the concluding the, my first tour there. And this was taking place between, shall we say the 1st of January and my last one, my last trip was on the 30th of May. And we were posted away on the 6th of June. And we were posted away. Do you want me to carry on? As screen gunners. As screen gunners. And we said, ‘Well what’s a screen gunner?’ We’d never heard of it before. They said, ‘Oh, you’ll find out.’ So we didn’t know. So five of the crew were posted to the same place. I think it was 17 OTU, I think that was the number, to, to Silverstone. And the navigator was posted to Wing. And he said that was the saddest moment of his life when he had to leave the crew. And we got posted by air and I remember when we got there we had dropped him off at Wing first and then our aircraft flew on and landed us at Silverstone. Well, Silverstone was only just, the OTU at Silverstone had only just moved there and it wasn’t really organised properly. And it took them a month to get organised and when they did get organised they found out they had a satellite as well which was called Turweston. So as all gunners were sent over to Turweston because the gunnery courses and I think the bombing courses were going to be sent from there. And we found out what a screen duty, what a screen gunner’s duty was. We were to be instructors without being taught by — not, not classroom instructors. Field instructors. To pass on our knowledge and, and to take new recruits, new crews coming through from their OTU because that’s what Turweston was. An OTU. And to take them on air firing and, and cine camera work. Well, we had a little training aircraft attacking us as a fighter and so on and so forth and we used to take them up in the air to do that sort of thing, you know. But that’s what a screen gunner was. And of course you were supposed, that was supposed to be a six month rest. Well, we had casualties while we was on there. But after that, so we were posted away in early June and I stayed there ‘til the middle of January and you were supposed to have a six months rest. And then a chap come to me who was one of the staff pilots there. Like us he was a screened pilot. He was an officer, and he said to me, ‘I’m forming a new squadron,’ He’d obviously been told he’s got to go back on ops and he said, ‘Would you be interested in joining my crew?’ So I said, oh you know it came quite out of the blue. And I thought, well I’d done about seven and a half months I think it was and I felt well I’ve gone over my six months. I could be called back at any time and, mind you we had a good bunch of lads, of air gunners there. We all lived in one hut as screen gunners. And it was, I thought well, you know what do I do? But I thought I’ve got to move on I think because if not [pause] So I liked this chap anyway. Although he was a flight lieutenant I liked him. Right.
AS: What was his name?
SK: Walker. Flight Lieutenant Walker. Clive Walker. He came from Bolton. He was the son of a known name in Bolton that had a big tannery works up there. And anyway, he, he approached me and I said [pause] and he said, he saw I was hesitating a bit. He said, ‘Well look, can you think it over? Can I give you twenty four hours to think it over?’ So I said, ‘Oh thank you. Good.’ And at that he approached me because he, I’d just been on, taking some air gunners on air firing and we used to take about four or five air gunners in one aeroplane and then change the gunners in the air and, you know they would be firing at a drogue, you know. Towed by a little light aircraft. And then we could, we were controlling the, the you know it was whilst we were in the air we was in control of these gunners. Well, so anyway when I got back to my billet I kept thinking about it. And I went to a friend I was quite pally with, one of the gunners and I said to him, ‘Clive, Clive Walker’s just approached me about going back on ops with him and I keep thinking, shall I go?’ And the chap said to me and that was Bill Harley, his name was and he said to me, ‘He’s asked me as well.’ So anyway we sat down on our beds and we had a chat and I said, ‘Well, if you go I’ll go.’ So he said, ‘Alright, we’ll both go.’ So the next day we told him yes, we’ll go with him. Alright. I think Bill err Clive Walker, he had a dog on the station. It was a corgi, you know. I didn’t like it. A yappy little thing. I didn’t think much of him as a dog but a nice looking dog but Bill loved this dog. He used to look after the dog a lot. He liked the dog anyway. And he, I think, I don’t know whether the dog swayed the argument [laughs] but we went, we went, and said the next day, ‘Yes. We’ll go.’ So he said he was very pleased about that and he said that and after a little while we were called. And then of course we were taken back to [pause] where did we go? Let’s see. We had to, mind you we had to leave Lincolnshire then. Do you want to go on because it’s not Lincolnshire?
AS: It’s great. Carry on.
SK: Anyway, we had to go to [pause] I think it come under Northampton. Let me see. What’s the name of the place? Turweston. Now was it Turweston? Wait a minute. No. No. No. No. No. Wait a minute. No. That’s where we were. Turweston. Then we had to, when we got the posting we had to go to Little Staughton in Bedfordshire. Little Staughton was 8 Group, Pathfinder Group. So there again when I joined 467 it was a new squadron and we found out that Pathfinders were forming a new squadron and of course as most of us had been off for over a year now from a squadron we had to do refresher courses. So we were sent to different places all around to do refresher courses. We went to Binbrook, up there and did a gunnery and the bomb aimers had to do a bombing course up there. And so we did various other stations around. And then we finished up at Little Staughton and that’s where we operated from.
AS: Which squadron were you?
SK: 582 Squadron. A new squadron. It was formed on April Fool’s Day 1944. And we operated from there, right. I did twenty nine trips on 467. But I did, and I did thirty five trips on 582. So that’s sixty four in total. And —
AS: Wow.
SK: And then of course that’s, we got through ok. You know. So that’s basically my, my flying life and then we didn’t know we was on our last trip and on our last trip was to Bremer in Northern Germany there. Bremer, Bremer. How you say it? And after I landed back somebody said, ‘This is your last trip.’ I don’t know whether perhaps our skipper knew. He hadn’t told me. So we just, you know thought — really? You know. It just came quite suddenly, you know. And that’s the last time I flew in the RAF. And then after sending on leave for a while, we were on leave for a little while, they sent us right up to Northern Scotland for, to be, for an attestation sort of course to reclassify you now to a different job. The only two jobs they we were offering at the moment was to be in the transport section or airfield controller. So I jumped for airfield controller and I did my, my course down at Watchfield in Oxford as an airfield controller. And then when I passed that course I was posted to West Raynham in Norfolk and [pause] as the airfield controller there. They were very pleased to see me because there were only two, two airfield controllers there and they were having to, it’s a twenty four hour station so — and you had to be relieved for your meals so they were never off duty. So when I got there I was welcomed. And so I was there then. That was the longest station I was on because otherwise we was, you know, we seemed to be always on the move. And that’s where I met my wife. At that station.
AS: Was she a WAAF?
SK: She was a WAAF. And then I got demobbed from that station when the war had all finished and so on. And then I went back to work, sort of thing and forgot all about the Air Force then. And I took, as I thought, having a green grocers shop I’ve always got a chance to know how to sell a cabbage. So my uncle was in wholesale greengrocery business and I fancied, I fancied to, to be more in the wholesale business than a retail business. I didn’t want to go and serve women coming in to the shop and arguing about the size of a cabbage so I went in the wholesale department, right. And we, because I was keen on getting back and playing a bit of football and we could have Saturday afternoons off then. And it was interesting, you know. When I was up West Raynham after the war finished suddenly it all came out, the orders came from the hierarchy everyone’s got to play sport. You’ve got to get playing sport again. Well I loved my football until I was called up and then, and then I found I hadn’t kicked a ball for six years. And of course I suppose I would have been in my prime then so I thought, I wonder if I can kick a football? So, anyway the sergeant’s mess got up a team and said we’ll have a try you know and we formed a sergeant’s mess team and we played different sections and goodness knows what else. And I got back playing football and then when I was started playing football that’s why I wanted my Saturday afternoons off. And then after a while it went on that I went to work in London in Spitalfields Market. And I worked as a salesman in Spitalsfield Market. That’s a wholesale fruit and vegetable market there. And I finished my working life there. It’s [pause] so you know that’s basically my life story. You know. In a nutshell [laughs] It’s quite interesting though that different things, you know little things creep up in your life doesn’t it? So if that’s any help to you there you are.
AS: That’s fabulous. Shall we pause there for a second?
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
AS: Sidney, I’d like to pick up on a few questions that come to mind from, from your interview so far. Could you tell me a bit more about the air gunnery training? Did people ever hit anything firing at drogues? What was the standard like?
SK: I got a standard in my [pause] how did they put it in that? Stop the tape a minute.
[recording paused]
AS: Ok. So tell me a little bit more about the gunnery training and the assessment.
SK: Well the gunnery training was when you’re air firing at a drogue they, you had a little light aircraft come alongside you, flying with you on your beam. So you could turn your turret around onto the beam. As much as ninety degrees. And you’d fire at a drogue which was let out behind. Behind the little tug. And as we took up about four gunners, I think it was at a time we’d take one [pause] we’d take one and we’d, the first gunner would have his bullets. The rounds were dipped in a coloured paint. So the tips were red, yellow, green I think. Or whatever they were. There was about four different colours. And you had two hundred rounds each to fire. So you had little short bursts of two second bursts and then you’d undo your breach and you’d see what colour you are. Because once you lost your colour you had to stop. Right. And that’s how it was done. Right. So that when a drogue came down and it was assessed the bullet would leave a little hole in the drogue with the colour around like a little round circle. And that’s how you was assessed. Two hundred rounds — how many hits you got. And of course it was all done on a beam because that’s where deflection come in and deflection was allowing for the time for your bullet to get from the gun to the aircraft. If you fire direct at him you’ve missed him because it’s gone behind him. Although the speed of the bullet is fast it’s enough to miss the aircraft, you see. So anyway that’s how, that’s how gunnery was assessed. Right. And then also when you were doing cine camera work you had magazines. Two magazines. Each gunner was allowed two magazines. And he had these little aircraft and they did flat attacks you know. They’d be on the beam and they would come in just like this and then pass underneath you. And you had to see how good your manipulation was because gunnery training is a bit like [pause] it’s a bit like, think of yourself as a snooker player. A snooker player, if he wants to be really good like these professional snooker players they have to train for hours a day and keep training. And that’s what you had to do. For gunnery you’ve got to keep training to get your control of your turret because at the turret you’ve got to turn your turret and you’ve got to angle your guns at the same time. Right. And it’s manipulation and it’s, it’s a question of having really good manipulation. And it’s just a matter of continue working at it, you know. And, and it was a Fraser Nash 20 turret I was in with four machine guns. And I had them while I was on OTU flying the Welllingtons. And it was the same as that, exactly the same turrets when I got on the Lancasters. Later on because I’d finished flying by August. Finished operational flying by August. I don’t know what the, I haven’t got the date in my mind but I know it was August ’44 I’d finished flying. And oh where were we? I’m losing my track now.
AS: Did you have ground training turrets? Ground training aids as well or was it all airborne?
SK: Well, I’m talking, I’ve been talking about airborne. Ground training — no. We did, we did a bit of training. I mean you start off by, when you’re at even your initial training when you first join up we used to get, we was at Blackpool but we went up to Fleetwood and they had some rifle butts up there somewhere on the downs, on the seashore. Somewhere near there. And we used to, we were give five rounds to fire a rifle. Right. But then prior to that, I didn’t mention in the chat but prior to that when, when the forerunner of the Home Guard came out it was called the Local Defence Volunteers. And Anthony Eden came on the radio and said, ‘We’re calling for volunteers,’ because the invasion was imminent, ‘We’re calling for volunteers. Will you report to the police station.’ So me and my old mate said, ‘Yes. Let’s go.’ You know. So we went down and we signed on and we were, we was a Local Defence Volunteers. And of course we had nothing much to start with and gradually you got little bits and pieces and then just, it was just, renamed it after a little while because they had such wonderful support that they turned it in and renamed it the Home Guard. And then of course, as soon as it was made the Home Guard that was about the time I was called up. Right. But then we had other training firing machine guns. Not much done on the ground but when we was at, when we was at air gunnery school we used to fly at Mablethorpe, along the beach at Mablethorpe because from Manby to Mablethorpe wasn’t far. We used to fly along the beach and we’d turn the guns on to the beam and there was targets put in the water. You know, this deep of water like, you know because it’s tidal there and targets were put there for you to fire at, right. And that was just for one gunner because that’s when we had [pause] No. We weren’t crewed-up there so no we must have had several gunners then. That’s right. And we, so it was done at Mablethorpe beach. Right. And then to get your, to get your results of the targets from Mablethorpe beach there the people in charge of the sight down there used to go back out on horseback to pick up the targets, you know. I remember that. Don’t kill the horses, you know.
AS: It can’t have given you much time.
SK: Pardon?
AS: It can’t have given you much time because the target comes from the front of the aeroplane.
SK: Yeah. Yes.
AS: And you’ve got very very little time to —
SK: That’s right. Well, yeah. Yeah That’s what, that was some of the training we did. We did two or three. That was part of our air gunnery training when we was at Manby. And then, as I say OTU you did the training with the trailing of the drogue and so on. Basically that was the training, you know.
AS: How about the aeroplanes that you were flying in training?
SK: Well —
AS: Were they mechanically reliable or old and worn out? Or —
SK: Yes. Old and worn out mostly, you know. The longer the war it didn’t, if the thing was operational it wasn’t put on training exercises, you know. On the training stations. It wasn’t so bad. I didn’t notice any problems when we was at Manby when we had, we had Wellingtons there. So luckily I had a good training because I was on Wellingtons all the time and with the same turret and something but when we got to, to being screen gunners we had very poor aircraft there. They had a job to keep them, you know. They’d say, ‘Yes. Your aircraft’s ready.’ We’d go out there as a crew and you find out, oh no. You’d be sitting out there waiting for an hour and a half before it was finished. And I had a, had one crash flying at while I was a screen gunner because I was flying, flying with a sprog pilot. That is a pilot going through the course. And we burst a tyre just as we lifted off on exercise. And so I, I said, well I didn’t say nothing. I thought we’d burst a tyre there and the aircraft just screwed a little bit to the left and I thought well we might as well do the exercise whatever happens because we’d burn up a bit of fuel. So, so finished the exercise and I said to the pilot afterwards, I said, ‘I want you to throttle back a bit and when you throttle back to lower the wheels and we want to inspect the tyres,’ I said. ‘I think we burst the tyre as we lifted off.’ So he said, ‘I thought the thing screwed a bit to the left,’ you know, ‘To port.’ So we, we checked the, so he did, he lowered the aircraft — the wheels down. The undercarriage down. And the port, the port tyre was blown to smithereens. And so he put it up and I said ok. Well, he said, so he said, ‘I’ll let base know.’ So we flew back over base and then we called up and said we appeared to have burst a tyre on take-off, you know. So usual old thing come from that. Put flying control in a panic. So they said the usual thing of, ‘Stand by. Stand by.’ So we, we carried on circuit and we were watching down below and we saw, we know our flight commander in charge of the course. He was, he was a good man really but we used to think he was a hard nut. But he had a little van you know and we could see his van suddenly appeared and it was at the end of the runway, you know. And we were told to fly over. He wanted to inspect it. Yeah. So he, he flew it over and he said, ‘Yes. You have blown your tyre.’ That’s the message we got back. We knew that. We’d had a look at it. So anyway, he said, I thought perhaps he might let us land with wheels up on the grass but he didn’t. He was struggling to, he didn’t want to lose an aircraft so he said, ‘No. Land on the runway and try to keep the leg off as long as you can until last moment.’ So anyway, I went forward. I had a word with the pilot and I said, ‘I’ll assist you as I can,’ and I had to look after my gunners which I got them all sorted out in the, in the fuselage. And of course it wasn’t enough points for them to all know what was going on. So the one with the most sense, as I thought, I gave him the, so he could listen to the intercom and he was to tell the others what’s going on and we [pause] So I said, ‘I’ll come forward,’ and I remember when we were doing all our circuits and bumps when we were under instruction ourselves as a crew they always had, the instructor always called out the airspeed for him. For when he was perhaps doing his stuff and by calling out the airspeed it’s one less job he’s got to watch. So I said, ‘I’ll come forward and I’ll call out the airspeed for you and anything else I can do.’ Oh he thought that was a good idea so that’s what I went forward and sat alongside him. He brought it in but at the last minute he a bit over corrected trying to keep the leg up and instead of what you might expect you’d swing around on the broken leg he went the other way and the wing hit the ground and damaged the wing a bit but we kept upright. We didn’t tip over on our nose. We kept upright and because we were slow, we were lost enough speed to keep us flat and level and I said to the crews, ‘Don’t panic.’ I said, ‘We’ll get out nice and slowly,’ you know. I said, ‘We don’t want any broken limbs.’ There was no fire. I mean I was sitting up in the cockpit with him and I said to the skipper, checking everything’s switched off. I said, ‘All switches off.’ And he checked everything. All switches off so there’s no fuel running about and I could see there was no, it all looked, there was no imminent fire. So we got out quite slowly and by that time our officer commanding was standing outside with his, with his van you know. So I got out and got all my gunners together and with the pilot because he had, he was flying with his own crew, you see. That was their training as well. To learn how to be a captain controlling the crew because he was on the course. And he was, he was a flight lieutenant believe it or not so he must have been somewhere on a training station for years you know and then suddenly said, ‘It’s time you went on ops.’ And he, anyway I walked over to, to our commanding officer there and I said to him, no. ‘No injuries sir. We’re all ok.’ He said to me, he said, he said, ‘You took a long time to get out of that aircraft.’ I said, ‘Well, we’ve got no broken limbs. No casualties.’ So I I sort of went away with a flea in my ear sort of thing, you know. I thought I’d done quite well. So that was one I had like that. And then my other gunner that I got to know which I joined up on the second crew with, he had another trouble when we had an aircraft that caught fire after he’d been airborne a little while. And he of course, we used to control it all from the astrodome halfway down the turret. Halfway down the airframe. The fuselage. And we only just used to sit and we used to control it all by the thing and I used to control the, the screen gunner used to control the tug, the flying you know, the towing the target or if it’s a little fighter going to attack us. We did that by Aldis lamp you see. Using a green for go and red for stop. No. Red was, red was exercise complete. You know. Thank you very much. But we had the green for stand by and then flashing green for attack, you know. That sort of thing. And so there was always little accidents going on, on the OTU because the aircraft weren’t at their best. They weren’t at their best. And in fact a gunner I got very friendly with also, he was one of the three crews that were going through. He was, he was sent as a screen gunner afterwards. He come only two or three days after us. That’s why we had a good lot of gunners there. And he, his wireless op was sent on from, from Turweston. Turweston yeah. When we was doing this. They crashed on take-off and were killed instantly. And that was one. So we had casualties while we was, you know, screened so we thought well might as well go back on ops. So that’s how we volunteered for our second tour.
AS: When you passed out as an air gunner.
SK: Yeah.
AS: Did you know you were going to Bomber Command and how did you feel about it?
SK: No. No. When you passed out from where? From OTU?
AS: Yeah. Yeah.
SK: Oh from OTU we were told we were going to, as I said, up the road here.
JM: Scampton.
SK: Scampton. Yeah. Scampton. Good job I’ve got a prompter. To Scampton. And we was, we were told we were going on a conversion course. That’s what we were told. When we was on a conversion we were told we were actually posted to 467.
AS: In Bomber Command.
SK: Yeah. In Bomber Command, you see. Yeah.
AS: What was it like?
SK: Mind you the OTUs were like Bomber Command. They were OT, Bomber Command’s OTUs I believe. Yeah.
AS: So you knew fairly early on that you’d end up bombing Germany.
SK: Well yeah.
AS: Yeah.
SK: When we, when I joined the first crew, when I said they were a Blenheim crew they thought they were going to the Middle East as a Blenheim crew. Because at that time they were just phasing out the Blenheims and sending them to the Middle East. And they were so surprised when they come and they were going to be made into a Wellington crew you see. So it’s, that’s how the war, you know, evolved really, you know. You never knew.
AS: What was it like being an all English crew in an Australian squadron?
SK: Well the reason we were all English crew. One Irish.
AS: Sorry. I do apologise.
SK: British.
AS: British.
SK: We were British, weren’t we? But our crew we had one Irish. He come from Belfast. We had one from Bolton. One from [pause] where did Ted come from? Bradford.
JM: Bradford.
SK: Bradford. The pilot come from the Cotswolds. I come from Essex. Johnny Lloyd. I don’t know where Johnny Lloyd, I’m not quite sure. He was our wireless op. I’m never quite sure where he come from. So we British. A British crew there. Oh and then we had, we didn’t have the, the flight engineer we got on our, when we first crewed up on our first 467. Our flight engineer really didn’t fit in the crew. And I don’t know what happened to him afterwards. He never operated with us. We did all our training with him at Scampton but when we come to be posted to 467 he suddenly disappeared. So we had to make do with what they called odd bods. If there was an engineer that hadn’t got a crew on the squadron or whatever it was or if not they had to pinch one off another crew that wasn’t flying that night.
AS: All the way through your tour?
SK: Well we had, we didn’t have a lot. We had, I think four different engineers that I can remember. So they were split over twenty nine. Twenty nine ops. One was an Australian. He was pinched off another crew. And our crew, we never had any sickness in our crew at all apart from the engineer which I mentioned. But only once the Irish chap, coming back from Belfast. Coming back from Belfast the boat, the sea was so rough they couldn’t sail the boat and he got back twenty four hours late. Well, we was on that first night so we had to pinch, we had to be given another bomb aimer and they took one from another crew. And he was an observer with the O badge, you know. And he was a good chap. We liked him but he came, he didn’t get through his tour. He failed, failed to return on one occasion. Yeah. Does that answer that question? I don’t know.
AS: Absolutely.
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: What was it like being surrounded Australians? Was it very different from — ?
SK: We weren’t surrounded by Australians. I didn’t really, I didn’t really say everything.
AS: No.
SK: A lot of our leaders when we were first formed up at Scampton we found most of our leaders were New Zealanders. Believe it or not. We had the two Flights. A and B Flight. And we was put into A Flight when we got to Bottesford. And that was Squadron Leader Pape and he was a New Zealander. And then when we formed a third Flight in March we, we had our flight commander was another new Zealander. Flight Lieutenant Field. Squadron Leader Field, sorry. And our, and our officer commander, he was actually RAF. He was, he formed, he made the squadron. There was no doubt about that. He was a wonderful leader and he joined the RAF in about 1936 if my memory’s right. But he was actually born in Brazil and, you know. I think he had, I’m not sure if he had British parents or what but he was actually in the RAF. So there was, we had quite a few new Zealanders there. Not many Canadians although there was a few odd Canadians there. And then to get the squadron going, being a new squadron how they, they sent in from different, other squadrons perhaps some experienced pilots because you can’t, you want, you want some experienced crews around you and with say six, six or eight trips to do, right. And so they were sent in to finish their tours with us. So we didn’t have a lot of Australians there. And when the Australians were coming you’d find a pilot would come with his navigator and then the rest we would make up with British. With Royal Air Force. Right. And then we had one or two gunners coming through on their own and they would join a crew. But also, we got through, we was pushed through our tour very quickly. The RAF crews were. We had no rest at all. You know. It was the hardest work I ever did. But they held back a little bit on the Australian chaps coming. Trying to build up the crew, the Australian crew. The Australian squadron. Right. But I don’t think I ever come across a whole, not in my time, a whole crew of all Australians. But they were, if an Australian pilot come through, looking through the book I can see they had a different colour uniform to us so you could always tell them that they had the darker blue one, you see, the Australians. And the New Zealanders as well. So you can see them when you look at old pictures. You could say oh look he’s got three. There’s three Aussies there. The rest were made up of RAF. That’s how it worked you see. So, but that’s why we were not, got through my first tour rather quickly, you know.
AS: Going through at such a rate.
SK: Yeah.
AS: Did, did you start to feel really worn down by it all or were you glad to be going through it so fast?
SK: You didn’t think about it. You were just, it was just what the order was. Whatever the order was you did, you know. It seemed that we was always on you know. Because I mean the weather’s, a lot of people forget what the weather was like. The weather we had in the war or the war winters were very hard. Very hard winters.
AS: That, that actually touches on something I’d like to talk about.
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Did you have any experience of FIDO or the emergency landing grounds?
SK: I didn’t have it myself. There was three places in the country wasn’t there had them? One was at Manston and another one was in Suffolk.
AS: Woodbridge.
SK: Woodbridge. Yes. The other one was further up country wasn’t it? Was it in Yorkshire? But there was three in the country there. No. I never had. Never had any experience of that. I’ve spoken to. I did speak to some chaps that landed in it, you know. It’s not — you know, a dicey thing to land in. Flames burning both sides of you, you know. Makes the runway look quite small, you know when you’re coming in, you know.
AS: On your, on your first tour as you say the weather could close in.
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Close down.
AS: What was it like coming back when the weather had closed in?
SK: Well Bottesford was in what did they called it? The Vale of Belvoir was it?
JM: Belvoir.
SK: Belvoir. In the Vale of Belvoir right. Right. And it was a frost hollow. So it wasn’t so bad. It wasn’t too bad in the middle of the winter because our take off times you had more darkness. Put it that way. We were controlled by the moon. We wanted darkness. Right. And, but sometimes the moon would be coming up before you got back or something like that you know. So we were controlled. What was the actual question you asked me?
AS: What was it like when you came back to find the fog had come in or — ?
SK: Oh yes. Well, yes. Well, it was a frost hollow there so, but most mists like we’ve had recently actually they’d come in in the late hours of the night, you know they form. And then you’ve got them at dawn break, you know. And it wasn’t until you got shorter night hours when you’re coming back at daybreak perhaps or, you know, just prior to then and then it was a bit difficult. But only once did we get diverted. And we got diverted, it’s a long story there [laughs] but we’d done a long trip. That was, I’m pretty sure that was the time we went to the Skoda works down in Czechoslovakia and we, we found that quite a hard trip. Very hard for the gunners. Because, you see, I used to, if you were in the flak belts and you got ack-ack flying around you. I used to think you were better off if you were in the pitch dark because it got so intense looking out for fighters. It was, you know. And you gained experience to know how to [pause] you could smell danger by what was going on around you, you know. And we always had a good understanding. We used to, especially in the first crew because we were all sergeants in the first group. Just sergeants. In the second crew we had four officers and three sergeants. It wasn’t quite so cosy if you know what I mean there. We couldn’t do our crew meetings sitting on our beds. We used to have crew meetings after. The next day and, and if anything we could have improved on, you know. We all had our say and all that. And you could, there was lots of little things you could do to save your skin, I suppose, you know. That sort of thing. Because, you know, you’re flying in a block. You’re not flying in formation. It’s a block. It’s, you can get statistics where you can get the actual measurements. It’s a wide block and it’s that deep and you’re flying as a gaggle anyhow, right. And the reason it was like that, deep like that was because you got at the time on that first tour the Wellingtons were still flying. They could only convert them to Lancasters as the Lancasters became available. And you had, shall we say over a target you’d have the Wellingtons at fourteen thousand feet. You’d have the Stirlings at sixteen. Halifax at eighteen. And we’d try to get to twenty if we could but we couldn’t always get there but you know it just depends on the weather. So that, that’s why you got the depths of it like that. So then they used to stagger it a bit so you weren’t dropping bombs on the ones underneath you and things like that. But when you’re flying at night and your night vision was most important to you for gunners. And there’s always a dark side to the sky. There’s always a dark side. However pitch dark it is one side is darker than the other. And it’s nearly always darker underneath for a start and then the south was nearly always the darker than the north. Right. Because if you got the stars you don’t realise how brilliant the stars can be. Right. So we always used to think if we’d got a long leg to fly on, flying in this gaggle, this stream which I’d say to the skipper, you know, we had a message to say creep over to the, if that was the stream going through there and the dark side was this side shall we say we’d creep over a little bit this way. Right. We’re still in the gaggle but we’d creep over a little bit this way. So the track would be down the middle. Right. But we’d go over to this side. Not that side. So you’ve less chance of being seen. Right. So there was all them little things you learned. You weren’t taught. You couldn’t be taught operational flying. You just had to grin and bear it and learn it yourself. And the only way you learned it was by discussions afterwards, you know and by little tiny things to say how you’d go about it.
AS: What was your attitude, or your skipper’s attitude to weaving? Did —
SK: Oh yeah. In, in those days you did weave. You weaved a lot and of course it was it was so, so a gunner couldn’t get his bearing on you. Because, you know it only takes two seconds to shoot you down. Two seconds. And you’ve got to be, if you’re on a eight or nine hour flight. Long flights in the winter. It’s a lot, a lot of time that’s going on there you know. So —
AS: Did, did you, did you ever have any exposure to wakey wakey pills?
SK: Yeah.
AS: To keep you awake.
SK: Oh yeah. I used to take them. If it was only, if it was up to the Ruhr or places like that according to your, you worked out you was given your briefing to, to know what routes because you didn’t go just straight there and back. You had different ways to, tactics to do. You had to fly on. And oh I’ve lost track now.
AS: Wakey wakey pills.
SK: Oh wakey wakey pills. Yes. So going to the Ruhr it could be four hours. It could be six hours. Right. So, and so possibly not then but if you were going further afield where you’ve got an eight hours, anything over a seven hour trip you needed something to keep awake. But you’ve got to realise you’ve been at work since 8 o’clock in the morning. Right. You’ve been up since 8 o’clock in the morning. You’ve been to a meal and from half past nine that morning you started work. You had your, you’d know by 11 o’clock whether you was on that night. Right. And then you had things to do like we always went out to the aircraft. You’d find what aircraft you’d got. We didn’t have regular aircraft. You had to fly on what was available. I think I worked it out, I think it was fourteen different aircraft we flew in in twenty nine trips. I think it was fourteen. So you didn’t have a regular aircraft so you always went out there to have a look but you got to know aircraft. You know. Perhaps you might do a training trip in one because training never stopped. So if you was on that night you’d have to go out there and you’d look at it and make sure the turret, had it been serviced? You know. Check on it. Make sure the armourers hadn’t missed anything because they were hard pressed and then also give, give, of course we had no Perspex in the front. We had a canopy over the top. Give it a clean. A bit of a sides we had so clean that up. And then you had to do a night flying test. So that had to take place between a bit before you went for briefing or then you would have your briefing. Mostly you would have a meal beforehand. You know, ,a flying meal beforehand. Then you got your briefing. Sometimes it was the other way around accordingly, you know, how it worked out. So there was no, there was never any spare time. And if you weren’t on that night you’re bound to have a flying exercise to do. We never, exercises never stopped. There was always new equipment coming out that some training had to be done on. You were, you’d be put on air firing. We used to, we used to go to, that’s Lincolnshire. Wainfleet. The Wainfleet.
AS: Wainfleet ranges. Yeah.
SK: That range there. And we used to drop our eleven pound smoke bombs from twenty thousand feet onto a target down below. You had to pre-book it, you know and arrange your time and then you were, you were given a slot to bomb at, you know. And then we had gunnery places I told you. Where did we used to go? We went, we had gunnery exercises. Perhaps we went to Mablethorpe then. I don’t think so. I don’t know where we went. I can’t think but there was always exercises right to even if you’ve only got one trip to have done you were still given exercises to do and you were kept busy because it took your mind off any casualties you’d had. That’s what it was done for.
AS: Yeah.
SK: You were never, you’d never get any time to rest at all but then occasionally a squadron would be given perhaps a forty eight hour stand down. And that’s when it was, well that’s right, you know. You got the message. It was good then. The squadron would be stood down. It gives the squadron time to recover, you know. So that’s that. So anything you want to ask me now?
AS: Yeah. On the wakey wakey pills still.
SK: Oh the wakey wakey. I didn’t say that. So I used to take them if it was a long trip but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t take them until after we’d done the bombing. Then you’ve got to be, the way home is always worse than the way out, you know. That’s the more dangerous place, coming home. More dangerous is coming back because they could be waiting for you. Especially if it was a long trip because they’d had time to go down, refuel and come up again. So I used to take the wakey wakey pills and I found out they used to make you quite tired for a quarter of an hour after you took them. Whether it was the thought of it or not I don’t know but I thought they always made me tired first. But then they did help you to keep yourself awake because it’s no good falling asleep for a time because it was very unsociable hours we were working and we worked long hours you know. And you could only do it if you were young, you know. And of course we were all young lads, you see. So.
AS: What, what was, I knew they were all different but can you give me an idea of what the debriefing was like afterwards?
SK: Debriefing. Yeah. It varied, I think on squadrons because some said when they come back they used to have a tot of rum and things like that but I don’t think we ever had that. But a cup of tea was more, was better than anything else. Of course when you, when you’ve only done one or two trips you want to keep talking about it, you know. You think, you know, fancy I’ve done that, you know and so on, you’d talk about that. But we, certainly that was one of the first things we got out in our crew is we’ve got to get to bed and forget what’s happened because we might be on the next night. Because your entire, you’d be two nights on and one night off. That’s how it was going. You weren’t always given that. You couldn’t be. But you had to be prepared for that. So from touch down we aimed to get to bed within, into our bunks in two hours. And if we could do it in two hours we were lucky. You know, we’d done well. And the initial crews, the early crews, the ones in the earliest stages would be three or four hours getting to bed, you know. And then that affected them the next day. So you’ve got to, you’d get out your aircraft, you wait for transport. Transport was good. They were nearly always waiting for you. You’d get back to the locker room. You’ve got to stow your gear and it’s no good being excited about it. I know it did happen to some of them that they were so thankful they got back they took the gear off and just threw it in the locker. But the most important thing is, especially the gunners is you have to hang up your suit, your electric suit and see that it’s in your locker. You had long lockers. And it aired in your locker. See. Because any dampness you’d get a short in it you see.
AS: Yeah.
SK: So we always made sure that we got [pause] got into our, into the locker room and stowed all our kit away properly, you know. And then you go to debriefing and when you get to debriefing it depends who’s in front of you. You know. If you had a lot, a lot of bombers on that night there’s only perhaps two or three intelligence officers there to debrief you. Right. So you walk in and the first thing you look for — whose got the tea? You know. And then there would be some WAAFs there that would bring you a cup of tea. So you had a cup of tea and you might, I don’t know whether, there was nothing to eat. You just had this tea. Two mugs of tea would go down that quick. And then if you’re lucky you’d go straight in but if not you’ve got to wait till your, a table’s available for you to sit down. And then debriefing of course. They debrief the pilot and the navigator. The navigator’s the one they’re debriefing really, with the pilot as well because the navigator has got a complete log of everything that has gone on. What you’ve got to remember is the moment you took off every one of those aircraft flying was a separate unit. No one knew what, what he was doing or what’s happening in that aircraft until he came back over base. They didn’t know where he was or anything. So the navigator had a complete log of everything that went on in the aircraft. Right. Just like a ships log. And we were closer to the navy than we were to the army although we came out of the army originally. Right. So we used to get the debriefing done and then you go for your meal. Right. Yeah. Your meal. And you always had an egg when you came back. You always found an egg. It was wonderful just to have an egg you know and that. And then, and when we was at Bottesford after we’d come out the mess there we had at least a half mile to walk back to the billet because we were dispersed. We was right out in the sticks. It might, it seemed longer than that to me but there was only just a small road to go down. Just enough to carry a van down you know. There were no big lorries in them days much. And then that’s what we tried to do. To try to get back to our billet within two hours. So is that the answer? Is that alright?
AS: Brilliant.
SK: Ok.
AS: Wonderful.
SK: Any more questions?
AS: I have hundreds of questions, Sidney.
SK: Oh [laughs]
AS: A couple more perhaps. Did, did you, because you are a man who survived two tours of operations.
SK: Yeah.
AS: At different times of the war.
SK: Yeah.
AS: Did you notice a real difference in how you operated between the first tour and the second tour?
SK: Yeah. Oh yes. Of course. Yes, it did. That’s why we had, that’s why we had to go on to a refresher course. As I said when, we crewed up but as a crew we had to go on to a refreshing course. And we did all sorts of courses. We was, I don’t know how long they were for. I’d have to check my logbook really but I think, I think it might have been even two months before we operated you know because first, navigational aids were coming through. Different navigational aids and so on. And your, your tactics were different, you know. Your tactics were different. You had to keep altering them all the time, you know. So yes, there was a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. And of course then they made more, more officers were coming through in crews and that’s what split crews. When you was all sergeants you were one unit together but when you had officers, not that we didn’t mix together but you had to, you couldn’t, you had to live apart. You didn’t live together. You lived apart. You ate apart and so on. Whereas when we were sergeants everything was done together. You was just a little unit on your own, you know.
AS: Well it seems from, from what you’ve said about your first crew at least that you were a very tight knit, staying alive club. That’s what you wanted to do.
SK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Put a lot of —
SK: We got good results and all. We had some very good results. I remember when we didn’t know we’d finished because you were supposed to do thirty trips. Right. But our pilot had done one second dickie trip. Right. He did it with our squadron leader and he did it to Essen. Because you know what they say? When we, when we was at OTU and people used to come, come to you and say to you at OTU and say, ‘What’s it like flying on ops?’ You haven’t got an answer. You’ve got to find out for yourself. We used to say, ‘When you’ve got Essen in your logbook you’ll know what it’s like.’ That was the answer, you know. So Essen was the most heavily defended target in the Ruhr. Where the Krupps works were. And getting in and out was, you know, it seemed almost impossible. It was amazing how you got through. So that’s what we, that was our answer when we were screen gunners to tell them. Not very helpful but you couldn’t, you can’t teach them. You can’t teach them operational flying. You can teach them everything else but, you know because it was a different feeling. It’s a fear factor comes into it you see. How do you react? You know. There’s somebody there is trying to blow you out of the sky. Another fighter coming up trying to set you alight and blow you to pieces you see. So it’s, it was a fear factor there you know and people act differently, you know. And one never knows, you know. I can tell you a little story when I was [pause] is it alright if I carry on? When I was at ITW down at St Leonards we’d finished our course. Wait a minute. Where was I going to get to, to tell you? We finished our course. Oh wait a minute. I’ve forgotten what I was going to say now. What was we talking about?
AS: We, we were talking about the fear factor. And you were going to tell me a story.
SK: Oh. A story. Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. The fear factor. Yeah. Right. Got it. Well we had to wait a long time down at ITW down at, down in Eastbourne. And they said it’s all, it’s been posted. ITV has been posted. And we was put on a train at 7 o’clock in the morning. We never knew where we were going. And we finished up in Bridlington, you see, that’s Yorkshire. And then we passed our course there and [pause] what was the question again?
AS: We were talking about the fear factor.
SK: Fear factor. Fear factor.
AS: And how people react. Yeah.
SK: Yeah. How people react. The fear factor. Yeah. And oh yes while we was there so they couldn’t, they couldn’t find anywhere to train. The air gunners couldn’t find anywhere else to go forward. We had to wait for our tour because the weather was so bad they couldn’t get through to flying. So we had several weeks there doing different things, sort of thing, you know. And so the fear factor. I keep wandering off don’t I? The fear factor is —
AS: We can come back to that if you like.
SK: No. Wait a minute. The fear factor was that I thought to myself when you, when you sign on as aircrew you haven’t got any knowledge or any idea of what it’s like to fly. None of us had ever been, had had our feet off the ground. We didn’t know what it was like to fly. So I thought to myself a lot of people coming in how are people going to cope with it? Would they be airsick? You see. Well airsickness is not like seasickness. But airsickness is only, you only get airsickness if you’re, you know, doing rough flying. But when it comes to flying over enemy territory you get this fear factor, you see. So they thought well these chaps have never been off the ground. We’d better give them a test to see how they cope with flying. So we was at Bridlington, on the seafront and they decided, ‘We’ll put them through an air sickness test.’ And they got some swings what they had in the fairgrounds right. Big swings. And they put some boards along the top of them and you had to like, you laid down on the board, on the board. And then some of the course there had to keep these thing going, you know. And you had to get the thing so it went perpendicular. Like that. And you had to, to go for twenty minutes. And I mean, a lot of boffins come down and the boffins were standing at the side of us and asking us questions. They were standing here. So as we went up and down they spoke to you as you went up past, you see, ‘How do you feel?’ ‘Do you feel ill?’ ‘Would you like fish and chips?’ ‘What did you have for lunch,’ you know. Trying to make you feel sick. Right. And so this was all done on Bridlington sea front and I often thought to myself if any of the locals had seen us, ‘With a war going on what are these chaps doing having fun down there?’ See. So that’s, they did bring out the airsickness ‘cause they couldn’t tell. Some chaps did get sick in the air and its just the fear factor, you know. The fear factor of what might be ahead of them. They didn’t know you see. So they wanted to find out if there was any way they could train them but I’m sure that the tests they put us through was far greater than they would have been in reality like, you see.
AS: It’s a marvellous, marvellous story.
SK: Yeah.
AS: The fear.
SK: I passed my test by the way on that screening.
AS: Of course. Of course. But the fears that one had on, on operations. What, what was the greatest enemy do you think? Was it the flak or the fighters or the weather?
SK: Well both. Well all. There was three things you mentioned there, they’re all. It just depends at the time doesn’t it? You know. It’s, they’re all, all. Which is the worst? Well, I always thought, as I mentioned before fighters I always thought were the worst for me as a gunner because with the shells bombing around you, you know there’s no fighters there. That’s the [laughs] that’s the way I looked at it right. And my job in the back there was to make sure a fighter didn’t creep up on us you know because the German tactics changed as well as ours. And their approach to, their approach to attacking us changed. Where in the, on the first tour they all attacked us from behind, underneath and just came up to us and fired from the back. Right. Aiming at the rear gunner and the aircraft. Right. Between my tours they did the Peenemunde raid. Right. And that’s the first time the Germans used a new system. They called it the sugar music. Sugar music. I think that’s what they called it. They, they used to have a gunner in the night fighter and he was like we were. Firing from a swivel. From a swivel or a turret, you know. At us. Then they thought, well why don’t we have a, rather like the Spitfires had, fixed guns. So they fixed a gun at a thirty degree angle. Firing at that angle upwards. Right. And the pilot could fire it. Right. That’s what they did. So they used a different tactic. They’d fly underneath you where it was always darkest and then when they got underneath they used to lift up. Lift themselves up. They were mostly JU88s they weren’t fast like Spitfires or anything like that but they were just a bit faster than the Lancaster so they could keep up with you, overtake you, but they used to the throttle back and then when they got their gun right they’re aiming for your petrol tanks between the two engines. Right. And that’s how we lost so many through firing. And that started between our tours so tactics had to alter. But Air Ministry never told us about that. We never knew that. Except that we were getting, we were seeing more flamers going down. Set alight by flame. Been set alight. When there’s no ack-ack around about it must be a fighter you see. So you sort of realise something was going on but they never told us and I never knew about these guns until after the war finished. Amazing really. What I, they had the idea what you don’t know about you don’t worry about I suppose. You see.
AS: [unclear ] what, as for both of your crews really was your tactic to just not open fire if you saw somebody?
SK: I I I believed in that. I felt, you see, according to how light it was how far could you see? Right. Guns were harmonised. The four guns. Usually about two hundred and fifty yards right. So they were all supposed to hit on another at two hundred and fifty yards. Right. But sometimes you wouldn’t see an aircraft at that, not [pause] because he’s what, three times smaller than you are. He’s flying in the dark. You’re flying, so he can see you and he can see you and he can see your exhaust pipes just glowing red, you know. If he got in a certain position he could see them. So, you know, it’s — yeah where was I again?
AS: Whether or not you opened fire if you saw one.
SK: Oh yes. Whether I opened fire. Yeah. So I would think, it might have been, you don’t want to make a fight with him. You want to keep away from him. And my idea was if you, you could sense something and if you had any, you’d say to the pilot something like, are we, ‘Get to the darkest side you can,’ you know in as few words as we can. It don’t, ‘It don’t look right.’ ‘Things don’t look right,’ you know. So that, and then if they were like that, they were looking for simple targets. If they could find a crew that didn’t respond to anything you know that’s the one they’d go for, you see. So it was just, just a knowledge at the time really. I suppose. You know.
AS: When you’re flying backwards over a target that’s, that’s been bombed could you, did you look away? Could you preserve your night vision?
SK: I tried, the most important, the thing you were trying to do is don’t look at the target. Because that’s the only time it’s lighter underneath. Right. But avoid looking at the target. Don’t spoil your night vision. We had night vision training and it takes full twenty minutes to get your full night vision, you know. Twenty minutes. I know you can improve it in ten or something like that but, but it’s a full, full twenty minutes to get your full night vision and one flash of light can spoil it you see. And that’s another thing you didn’t want to do. So it’s very tempting to look to see where your bombs are falling, you know but I used to look away. And that’s the only time you looked upwards instead of downwards you know. Or sideways, you know. But that’s something you had to learn to do.
AS: Did you test fire your guns?
SK: In, in the very early stages we were allowed to do it when you were over, over the sea. Right. And then it got stopped doing it because they said there was a danger that you might give your position away and there was a danger that other aircraft might be not too far away from you. And so on. And they said, ‘No. You’re not to do it anymore.’ But we used to do. Test them. Just a short burst and so on but that got stopped. That was an order that came through to stop. So —
AS: Could you, I mean it’s a bit of a silly question because it depends to a great extent on how dark the sky was. But could you often see many other aircraft?
SK: Yes. Oh yes.
AS: Over the target? Or —
SK: Oh over the target you wonder where they all come from. You thought you was all alone. But when you were over the target aircraft were everywhere, you know. Above you. Below you. A pilot was always looking. You don’t want to see somebody with the bomb doors open just above you, you know. But yes its — yes it’s [pause] Ok?
AS: Yeah. As a crew did you ever talk about what you were doing? About the fact that you were bombing the enemy or did you just treat it as a job and just get on with it.
SK: Well it was a job of work. A job you were trained to do. It’s [pause] it’s something that we were right to do. And we had, we had targets to, we had targets to officially aim for, you know. But when you’re fighting an enemy things can go wrong, you know. I mean they had the problem of creep back. Creep back was where you, if you had a target area there and it was marked by the Pathfinders and then the bombers coming in and then they’re getting knocked about a bit. They let the bombs go a bit quicker you know. That sort of thing you know. So they used to put tactics. You’d put your, go forward, mark the forward there to allow for the creep back. You see. There was all things like that. But we were given a job to do and we thought it was the right job to do, you see. Yeah.
AS: And you said towards the end of the first part of the interview that you were demobbed and didn’t really think about it.
SK: We switched off.
AS: Yeah.
SK: It’s what happened. It’s what happened with the government and everything. They wanted everybody to forget everything. It’s like they destroyed all the aircraft. You know. All these aircraft we had. They were just got rid of them and so on and made you forget. That’s why they said on the stations what I said, got to bring sport back. They had sport everything. You’ve got to do. Play cricket. You’ve got to play football. There’s badminton, you know. And there was running races. Everybody had to be in to sport you see because that’s what the, that’s what the Services were before the war you see. So that’s you had a, you forgot all about. In fact my daughters, I’ve got three daughters, I don’t think they know much about what I did until they read the book. So there we are.
AS: Well, hopefully we’ve got a tape as well. One, one final question if I may and it’s not about your aircrew duties. It’s when you did aerodrome control. And I have a reason for this because my mum used to do it as well.
SK: Oh yes.
AS: What was your —
SK: She’d be in flying control.
AS: She was in flying control.
SK: Yes. Yes. I was in the caravan at the end of the runway.
AS: Oh Ok.
SK: Yeah.
AS: So, what did your duties entail?
SK: Right. As flying control. First of all you logged every aircraft as they took off and when they landed and you brought them on to the runway with an Aldis lamp and gave them permission to take off and then when they were landing, with your binoculars you’ve checked that their wheels are down properly. That their tyres looked in good nick and so on and also to recognise the aircraft as its coming to land and so on, you know. So that’s what your duties were. Yeah.
AS: Brilliant. Thank you.
SK: I’ve got a little bit about [pause] I’ll show you this then because I suppose you’ll want to finish then I’ll have said enough. I’ll show you one other thing. I think you’ll be able to keep it if I can show you something. Are you alright for time?
AS: I I have years for this, Sidney.
SK: Oh alright. Now where is it?
[Pause. Shuffling papers]
SK: Now where is it? No. That’s not it [pause] This was a battle order when we went to the Skoda works. Right.
AS: At Pilsen, yeah.
SK: At Pilsen. And that’s when we got diverted to Boscombe Down. I told you the one occasion.
AS: Yeah.
SK: We got diverted to Boscombe Down and our squadron, which is 5 Group, right. And a squadron should only be two Flights. And a squadron should be six aircraft to a Flight. So you should have twelve aircraft. But you had extra aircraft so you got six serviceable. Right. Well, when the war was going on and Bomber Command was building they formed, our squadron formed a third flight. Right. C Flight.
AS: Yeah.
SK: And we was in A flight when we were at the start. And then when it got to [pause] when it got to, they wanted to start a third Flight it was C Flight and the idea of that was how you build a new squadron is you build it up to three Flights and then when you’re going and alright and you’ve got, that’s eighteen aircraft and you’ve got two or three spares. Then you can take that flight away and it starts a new squadron.
AS: Yeah.
SK: But then you go back to your two flights. Well this time we was up to three Flights because we found out the first, it was the 1st of March, I think, we started our C Flight on our squadron there. And this was the 16th 17th of April right. And this is when we, it’s —these are all the pilots. There’s us up there. The other two pilots with us — one was on leave and Bally was the other that came, just followed us off here. That’s our wing commander. He was on that night. Going down, Mackenzie [pause] No. Stuart was RAAF. You asked about that.
AS: Yeah.
SK: Tillerson. Desmond. All RAF. Wilson. All RAAF I should say.
AS: Yeah.
SK: Sinclair. Wilson again. There was two Wilsons on our squadron. And Parsons. And Manifold. So by that time the captains were getting more, more Australians but we were — but they had RAF in their crews. Right. And this is the number of ops that crew had done. There. That’s the time they took off. The time they bombed. The height they bombed at.
AS: Six thousand feet.
SK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was our height to bomb at because there was nobody there. We came down to that height to bomb because there were no defences there and yet we had the hardest trip coming back then ever. That’s the time we landed. We diverted, we got the diversion call come when we was crossing the sea. I know we were just crossing the French coast on our way back. I could go on forever. Because when we was at Bottesford you have to put me back on track in a minute, when we was at Bottesford we were, the station was confined to barracks because we had a Diphtheria scare on, on the squadron and they confined everyone to barracks. No one to leave. But we were able to fly on ops. And when we when we, when we landed at Boscombe Down they knew all about it so the MO had phoned through and said, ‘They’re aliens,' you know. That sort of thing. ‘You’ve got to be careful with them.’ So we were sent up to they wouldn’t allow us in the mess. They found us empty huts and we had to lay down and they found us some, what we called biscuits you know to lay on. Mattresses. And we laid down on them and they rustled up some — because Boscombe down was an experimental station for the RAF. Right. And it was only a grass airfield but that was in Hampshire. And they had to get — we lost two aircraft that night. Stuart. And where’s the other one? Failed to return. One there. Oh up here. “And diverted to Boscombe Down in Wiltshire on return as Bottesford was fog bound.” What I mentioned before. We lost thirty five aircraft. Bomber Command lost thirty eight aircraft from this raid and yet there was no defences at the target. A hundred and ninety nine were killed in action. Fifty two prisoners of war and thirteen, there were thirteen evaders. Right. How they — they must have come down in France somewhere and managed to get back through Spain I should think.
AS: So you could have dropped some aircrew with Diphtheria into the prisoner of war camp.
SK: Yes. We were, we were all the what, you know — what do you call it? They hadn’t got enough of the, would it be serum or something?
JM: Oh No. No. Inoculations.
SK: Inoculations. They hadn’t got enough of them, you see. But when you get a big outbreak like that and so they, they was able to test you to see whether you were positive or negative or something. Do they scratch you or something? I don’t know how they do it, put it like that. But our crew was alright but then we were poorly we were still allowed to fly. And the MO at briefing said to us that night, he said, ‘If any of you unfortunately crash and come down in German you must tell them that you are Diphtheria carriers.’ We said, ‘Blimey we wouldn’t tell them that,’ [laughs] You’re asking for a bullet in your head straight away, aren’t you? You know [laughs] So we didn’t agree with the MO one bit. I remember that. So you can keep this bit if you like.
AS: Thank you.
JM: Well, that’s not in the book is it? It’s not subject to copyright?
SK: I don’t know. Maybe. Yeah but —
JM: Oh.
SK: Yeah.
JM: In which case you can’t digitise that I’m afraid.
AS: Ok. We can —
SK: Well you can have a look at it anyway.
AS: We can sort that out.
SK: You must sort it out. I don’t know.
AS: What interests me on there as well.
SK: Yeah.
AS: Is two things. One — did you climb back to height after you’d bombed?
SK: What? In this? On this one. Yeah.
AS: On that one. Yeah.
SK: You would have done. Yes.
AS: And the “Froth Blower” on there. The code name. Is that the squadron or the target code name?
SK: That. No. That would be the target code name you see. “Froth Blower.” Yeah. Yes.
AS: Ok.
SK: I think that would be in the book there. But you see how many aircraft we put up there? And look. They can’t beat that now. We took off at minute intervals.
AS: Yeah.
SK: Minute intervals. And we got fourteen up there till this last one. And I remember Manifold. He was an Aussie but he went on and he did fifty trips. He finished his tour on fifty and he went on to Pathfinders afterwards and he [pause] he, when he went to start his aircraft one engine wouldn’t start. And they had to rush around and take the spare one standing by. So he lost fifteen minutes or whatever it was. But that’s, that was, that’s good flying control. That was a good bloke at the end of the runway did that one.
AS: Fast on the finger.
SK: Yeah. Yeah. Getting them all on there. To get heavy aircraft down at the end of the runway like that, you know.
AS: So at least on that squadron if you had one you’d have a standby aircraft fully fuelled and fully bombed.
SK: You would try to. It didn’t always happen. But there was at that time. At that time there was. Yeah. Yeah. I did a little thing here I wrote down. I think I’ve got it here somewhere. I’m sure I’ve got it here. Printed out. Perhaps I haven’t got it.
[Pause. Shuffling papers]
AS: Do you know how long we’ve been talking for?
SK: No.
JM: Two hours.
AS: Nearly two hours.
SK: Oh I’m sorry.
AS: No. Not at all. Don’t apologise. It’s wonderful.
SK: [unclear ]
AS: I was just saying shall we, shall we draw stumps there. At least for the tape.
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: And maybe we can do another.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Sidney Knott
Creator
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Adam Sutch
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKnottS151001
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:51:57 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney Knott was from Leigh on Sea and recalls the day, with invasion apparently imminent, that signs were put up on the local shops advising people that they had to be ready to move within an hour and taking only one suitcase with them. Sidney’s father had been injured several times during the First World War and advised his son to join the RAF rather than the army. Sidney had had an interrupted education so was advised he would be accepted for general duties. He was posted to Blickling Hall where he was on crash duty but later remustered as an air gunner. Initially he was posted with 467 Squadron based at RAF Bottesford. His was the first crew to complete a full tour on the squadron. After his tour he was posted to RAF Silverstone. He was then approached to join a new squadron and do a further tour of operations. His crew joined 582 Squadron, Pathfinders based at RAF Little Staughton. He completed sixty four operations in both tours. He talks about the fear factor of operations, the instinct over the target looking out for threats and coping with the tiredness.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1944
17 OTU
467 Squadron
582 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bombing
fear
ground personnel
Lancaster
Manchester
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bottesford
RAF Finningley
RAF Little Staughton
RAF Manby
RAF Scampton
RAF Silverstone
RAF Turweston
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Woodhall Spa
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/959/8978/PPopeKMJ18010011.1.jpg
61e407720688a537aba7cdbac19ed236
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pope, Kenneth. Album
Description
An account of the resource
79 items. The album concerns Sergeant Kenneth Malcom John Pope, (b. 1924, 1876733 Royal Air Force). He completed 32 operations as a flight engineer with 467 Squadron from RAF Waddington. The album contains his log book, photographs, letters, and newspaper cuttings about the operations he took part in.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susan Elizabeth Kelly and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
K M J Pope
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Flight ENGINEER
BY 'AERO-SPEE'
The story is told many times over, in the citations announcing awards for gallantry in the air, of the work being done by flight engineers in the bombers of the Royal Air Force.
The flight engineer is a comparatively new member of the air crew. His evolution can be traced with the increase in size and complexity of aircraft, and his importance will increase to a greater extent than in the case of any other member of the air crew as aircraft develop in size. Even now there are signs in very large aircraft, such as the Martin Mars, that the flight engineer is becoming the equivalent to the engineer in the sea-going liner. He is now provided with his own control room where, in communication with the pilot on the bridge, he ensures that the aero-engines are kept running in a manner calculated to give the most efficient operation for the conditions of of flight being worked to by the pilot. From experience he can at once detect without concentration any deviation from the normal instrument readings, and his immediate corrective action may avoid worse trouble developing which, if it had been left to the pilot, with many other matters on his mind, might have gone unnoticed until something began to break up. He is responsible for many other things besides the operation of the engines, and, broadly speaking, his various duties can be defined as follows:
1. As explained above, he is responsible for operating the engines to give the most efficient performance within the flight conditions ordered by the pilot or captain of the aircraft. To do this he must have a very complete knowledge of engine operation, so that he can adjust his boost and engine speed to the most efficient boost and engine speed for every condition of flight, it is the most efficient relationship between boost and r.p.m. for any condition of flight that he must have at his finger tips, only long experience will teach him this “engine sense.”
2. He should be capable of taking over the flying controls from the pilot in an emergency and be able to hold the aircraft to a given course. This is especially important in the case of a military aircraft, where the other members of the crew will have their hands full with their own duties, and only the flight engineer can keep an eye on his own job when deputising for the pilot, since the engine controls and performance instruments are duplicated in the pilot's cockpit.
Although this function of the flight engineer is especially desirable in military aircraft, the value of being able to fly the aircraft and thus understand perfectly the operation of the flying controls and appreciate the pilot's outlook on the whole job cannot be over-estimated. It is in this way alone that a perfect understanding between the pilot and his engineer can be achieved.
3. As technical adviser to the pilot the flight engineer performs what is probably his most useful function. Although he works under direct orders from the pilot, the modern aircraft is becoming such a highly developed piece of mechanism that the pilot has to rely on an expert technician for advice upon the most suitable conditions of flight to be adopted under any particular circumstances. Before a flight the pilot and flight engineer will probably have a conference and discuss the flight plan and the bearing which it will have on how the engines are operated, etc. In this way, perfect understanding is achieved, and the pilot can give all his attention to flying the aircraft, with the knowledge that his requirements as far as aircraft performance are concerned are being met efficiently by the flight engineer. Obviously the flight engineer must, on the one hand, have a perfect understanding of the functioning of the complete aircraft and, on the other hand, he must be certain that the pilot is not at cross-purposes with him on any particular point, Complete mutual understanding and trust, essential as it is, can be achieved only if both the captain and the flight engineer know their own scope of functions intimately and work together as a team.
4. Again, as technical adviser to the pilot, the flight engineer is responsible for maintaining liaison between the ground technical staff and the pilot, both after and before flight. The flight engineer's report, which will probably be surveyed and perhaps added to, at the completion of a flight, by the pilot would be passed over to the individual in charge of the ground maintenance party, and would form the basis of the work programme in addition to the routine inspection which has to be done between flights. This report would give details of any observations made by the flight engineer, e.g. brakes require adjusting, port inner throttle control stiff, starboard undercarriage retracting gear sluggish in operation.
It is necessary for the flight engineer to take an interest in the ground maintenance work done on his aircraft, and on taking over technical responsibility for the aircraft before flight he would receive the ground staff's report on the work which they have done and any particular points of interest to himself or the pilot. Any such points would be brought to the notice of the pilot during the pre-flight conference.
5. Finally, the flight engineer has to be capable of effecting an emergency repair during flight. This function calls for a very complete knowledge of the structure of the aircraft and initiative of a very high order.
[inserted box]
THE FLIGHT ENGINEER IN THE AIR
During take off you will operate certain engine controls and make sure that the engine limitations are not exceeded.
During the flight you will be responsible for the engines. You will yourself operate many controls, such as air-intake shutters, cooling gills and fuel-cocks. You must advise the pilot on the use of the engines in order to fly the greatest distance on the amount of fuel carried. Pay most careful attention to the fuel consumption, checking the gauges frequently and maintaining a record of the miles flown per gallon, so that you may be able to tell the captain at any time how far he can go on the remaining fuel.
In addition it is part of your job to do any small repairs which become necessary. During training you will be given practical tips on emergency repairs, but often success will depend on your own inventive ability; during this war aircraft have been saved because elevators were operated by rope, and because hydraulic systems have even been made to work on coffee by resourceful airmen.
Extract from Air Ministry Pamphlet No. 166.
[/inserted box]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flight engineer
Kenneth Pope
Description
An account of the resource
Flight Engineer magazine article describes role of flight engineer. Photograph of Kenneth Pope, in uniform with sergeants stripes and flight engineers brevet, crouching with dog outside a building.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PPopeKMJ18010011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Aero Spee
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One shett and one b/w photograph on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Frances Grundy
aircrew
animal
flight engineer
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/420/7646/ATencaMontiniN180613.1.mp3
37974c4a4e8763b561718fcbcd24b570
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Nino Tenca Montini
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-13
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:35:31 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATencaMontiniN180613
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Udine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Nino Tenca Montini reminisces about his wartime experiences in Udine and in the Friuli region. Describes the family shelter as a concrete reinforced basement, sparsely furnished with wooden benches. Recalls the urge to escape the vigilance of adults and dash out to see the damage and pick up scrap and spent shells. Reminisces about a Cossack distraught by the death of his horse after a bombing. Recollects his countryside life as an evacuee in Gervasutta, Terenzano e Forni di Sopra, where he eye-witnessed the aftermath of the Forni di Sotto reprisal. Describes shelters in the countryside consisting of dug outs or bell towers, and reminisces the awe of watching low-flying bombers surrounded by anti-aircraft fire explosions. Reminisces about being strafed while on a country road and stresses the inaccuracy of popular depictions of shelter life in media: people were silent and pensive, not agitated. Elaborates on the legitimacy of the bombing war being sympathetic with aircrew. Considers himself lucky for escaping the war unharmed, expresses his closeness with the victims of present day conflicts and stresses his distaste for military life.
animal
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
perception of bombing war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/134/PFilliputtiA16010045.2.jpg
f3faa6e25bdd040d6b1a286fb1417a2b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bombing of San Giorgio di Nogaro
Description
An account of the resource
A group of civilians takes shelter in a ditch at night. In the middle distance, a bare landscape with sparse trees is illuminated by bursts of anti-aircraft fire and flares.
Label reads “93”; signed by the author; caption reads “9 Gennaio 1944. S. Giorgio di Nogaro, il mio primo disegno dal vero, il primo bombardamento degli Anglo-Americani con il lancio di “bengala” ad ovest del Friuli. E stata un’esperienza traumatizzante, era notte, fuggii con tutta la mia famiglia oltre i fiumi, ci seguì perfino un superbo gatto che in casa faceva da sopramobile permanente sopra la radio”.
Caption translates as: “9 January 1944. S. Giorgio di Nogaro, my first true-to-life artwork, the first Anglo-American bombing using flares in western Friuli. A most shocking experience, it was night-time, I ran away with my whole family, crossing the rivers. Even a splendid cat followed us: always ensconced on top of the radio as a permanent ornament.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010045
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--San Giorgio di Nogaro
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
animal
anti-aircraft fire
arts and crafts
bombing
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/164/PFilliputtiA16010075.2.jpg
7e74dfb394377215f5fc5faac10f4abb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anti-partisan action at S. Giorgio di Nogaro
Description
An account of the resource
In a barn full of animals, an exchange of gun fire is taking place between fascists disguised as partisans and civilians. The soldier in the foreground has been badly shot and another soldier is running out through the barn doors.
Inscriptions read “191”; signed by the author; caption reads “S. GIORGIO DI NOGARO UD NOVEMBRE 1944. (I) Frazione Galli, casale Venco, 4 partigisani riposano nella stalla, Cargnello Giovanni “Rasin” e il russo “Stalin”. Giungono altre persone in abiti civili si dicono patrioti, ma sono dei repubblichini travestiti, scoppia una sparatoria, il russo Barbizeu Ivan rimane ucciso, gli altri fuggono. Si era tesa la trappola per catturare Romano, Martello, ed altri, all’arrivo di militari tedeschi la fattoria, circondata fu saccheggiata”.
Caption translates as: “S. Giorgio di Nogaro (Udine province), 27 November 1944. (1) Galli hamlet, Venco farmhouse, four partisans are sleeping in the barn, amongst them Cargnello Giovanni (also known as “Rasin”) and the Russian “Stalin”. Other people in civilian clothes pretend to be patriots but are Fascists in disguise. A shooting broke out, the Russian Ivan Barbizeu got killed. The other escaped. A trap was set to arrest Romano, Martello, and others. When the German soldiers arrived at the farm, they surrounded and sacked it.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010075
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--San Giorgio di Nogaro
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
animal
arts and crafts
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/191/PFilliputtiA16010102.2.jpg
b5bfa232678b7906cfd2c73c9f7c4c9f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reprisal at Fielis
Description
An account of the resource
In a mountainous area, partisans are firing at unarmed civilians, causing confusion for both the civilians and their animals. One woman and three men have been hit by the gunfire.
Label reads “254”; signed by the author; caption reads “CARNIA. 19 Marzo 1945. In seguito all‘uccisione di un gendarme caucasico da parte di partigiani, fù operata una rappresaglia contro la popolazione di Fielis dove si diede a violenze di ogni sorta. Furono uccisi a fucilate 2 vecchi, uno dei quali morì dissanguato, senza che a nessuno fosse permesso di medicarlo. Frustate e battute a sangue, moltissime persone di ogni età e sesso, ma con particolare gravità il cappellano Don Paolo Min mentre dava l’assoluzione ad uno dei morenti, 60 case furono saccheggiate asportandone viveri, denari, oggetti di valore, calzature, lenzuola”.
Caption translates as: “Carnia, 19 March 1945. Following the killing of a Caucasian police officer by partisans, a violent reprisal was unleashed against the inhabitant of Fielis. Two old men were shot and killed. One of them bled to death because everyone was forbidden to help him. Many people, regardless of age and gender, were severely lashed out and hit. Amongst them, Father Paolo Min was assaulted while he was administering the last rites to a dying person. Sixty houses were looted: provisions, money, valuable objects, shoes, and sheets were stolen.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010102
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Alps
Italy--Friuli
Italy
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
animal
arts and crafts
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/564/8832/PEmlynJonesA1601.1.jpg
5a87ab19fbe21121173bd90fd1d7fd8e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/564/8832/AEmlynJonesA161012.1.mp3
bc8126645f0b2316e1d629a80b2452f6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Emlyn-Jones, Alun
A Emlyn-Jones
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archvie
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EmlynJones, A
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alun Emlyn-Jones (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anne Roberts, the interviewee is Alun Emlyn-Jones. The interview is taking place at Mr Emlyn-Jones’s home in Cardiff, in Wales on the 12th of October 2016.
AR: Thank you Alun for agreeing to talk to me today.
AEJ: My pleasure.
AR: Also present at the interview is Julie Emlyn-Jones, Alun’s wife.
AEJ: That’s right.
AR: So Alun, could you tell me something about your early life?
AEJ: My early life? Well I was brought up in Cardiff, my parents - I was one of two children, my sister was six years older than me and I was the second one and I spent all my early life here really. Then at the age of ten I was sent away to school, I was banished to England for my education. I was very unhappy at school, it was a very difficult time for me, it was just emotional. I was a home boy, I wanted to stay at home I didn’t really want to go but I went to Summer Fields in Oxford to start with and that’s in my book under the title ‘Nightmare’ [laughing] and then I went on to Charterhouse, which was easier. And then, heaven knows what might have happened, I might have gone on to university and so on I suppose, but as a matter of fact I don’t think I was all that scholastically brilliant because I wasn’t working as much as I should have, but the war came to make my decision for me. So I was able then, my parents let me come home waiting for whatever should happen. When it came to, as you know if you volunteered, even if for a short while before you would have been called up you got the privilege of putting down preferences of where you would go, and I must say I wasn’t directed by anything more noble than the fact that I didn’t really want to slog through muddy trenches, so I decided on, you had to put one for each service. So I put my priority as aircrew in Bomber Command, my second one was the submarines and my one for the Army was in tanks, so the idea was that I was going to be carried wherever I was going [laughter] and in due course I was given my first choice and I went to Penarth, I’ve skipped a lot of my youth I’m afraid, went to Penarth to start training there. I’ve skipped a lot, you want to know more about my youth of course.
AR: No, whatever you want to tell us, it’s fine. So your training was in Penarth?
AEJ: We started our initial training, well we started, we met in Penarth before we were sent out to our stations, you know. We went to various places, all over the place. I spent a lot of time training in South Africa, went out on a troop ship, it took six weeks out and six weeks back, incredible, and did my training in a place called East London in South Africa and then came back in due course.
AR: And what did the training entail Alun?
AEJ: Well I suppose we did a lot of flying, Ansons and aircraft like that and then we graduated I think to Whitleys and it was on Whitleys that I was flying with my first crew at the conversion unit. At that point, at the conversion unit we moved to Halifax, the Halifax which we were going to fly during operations. And that’s what we did, so we flew in the Halifax on a regular basis from RAF Rufforth on the flat plain of York and then one day, my crew, well I had my appendix out, that was a very important thing for me. I had an appendix attack. I was able to get home, or it happened somewhere where I could be at home and I had my appendix attack and I had my appendix out in a local nursing home in Cardiff. I wrote to my skipper Stanley Bright ‘I do worry about one thing’ I said, ‘because this has caused me to leave you now and you may not be able to wait for me’. He said ‘don’t worry a bit, the weather’s clamped, we’re doing very little flying, you’re going to be back in a few weeks and that’ll be fine’ And that was the last I heard of him, from him. They were flying from Rufforth on one of their training trips, conversion trips while I had my appendix, they had taken off but they were In, I think, 10/10ths cloud and they were doing simply something like, a simple exercise, I think something like circuits and bumps, you know landing, taking off, landing, taking off, all that sort of thing and I think they got slightly off track in this dense cloud and didn’t realise, because we didn’t have the sophistication with radar that they have now and didn’t realise that the hill, called Garrowby Hill was between them and the ground and they flew into the hill. They killed a passing truck driver and the plane hit the road near Cot Nab Farm, top of Garrowby Hill and disintegrated in the fields and they were all killed. So suddenly I was left, an odd bod with no crew and ah, had to wait to see what would happen. But of course that caused quite a lot of delay in when I started flying and so on as you can see from my logbook, and eventually I was adopted by a crew whose bomb aimer had been taken, borrowed by another crew, and when he was borrowed he was killed. So they ended up as a crew without a bomb aimer and I was a bomb aimer without a crew and they asked me if I would like to join them which of course I was, I was delighted to because that period of just hanging about, just going wandering about the station, not belonging to anybody was a very difficult time, a very, very difficult time. What I couldn’t understand was the attitude of the, I don’t know who he was, one of the senior officers. I couldn’t understand his sort of antagonism to me. He just interviewed me and wanted to know what I was doing and things like that, and then he said ‘get out’. I couldn’t understand that but later, I think I saw that he had been unaware of me not being killed at the time and included me in the list of those who had died that day and I think that he was feeling guilty about that and took it out on me. There was no other reason, I had no personal contact with him that otherwise could have caused that but that made me feel even more isolated really and I just wandered round very lonely and hopeless for quite a while until my new crew adopted me.
AR: And then you flew a number of missions?
AEJ: Well first of all we had a lovely pilot, he was a great guy, Danny and he’d done 13 ops and crashed with a full bomb load. He broke his back and he’d nevertheless come back to flying again and he adopted us and I had great admiration for him, I think we all did. But I of course, as a bomb aimer it was only over the target that I was in charge really and the rest of the time I did odd jobs. I was assistant pilot, I was assistant navigator and all the bits and pieces that went with it, you know helping the wireless operator and anything they could find for an odd job man really. I used to sit next to Danny on take off and as he pulled the heavy aircraft off the ground he would come out in an absolute sweat and I knew he was in pain. After he’d done six or seven ops or whatever it was, one day we were actually out on the dispersal point waiting to take off and he called us together and he said ‘it’s no good I can’t fly, my back is playing up so badly I’ll kill us all’. And I just said to him, because I thought it would be true, ‘don’t worry Danny they’ll understand’. Well they didn’t. The Wing Commander came out in his Hillman and he treated Danny as though Danny was a traitor of some sort. It was dreadful. He said ‘King get into my car’ and then he turned to us and he said ‘I’m sorry your pilot is LMF - lacking in moral fibre’. I thought that was terribly cruel and we asked if we could have an interview with the Wing Commander, which he granted and I was the spokesman and I went in on behalf of the others, with them, and said ‘we want you to know sir that we have great admiration for Flying Officer King and I told him about his broken back, he ought to have known that from the records, and how he’d carried on despite that and how I could see how much pain it gave him when pulling the aircraft back and that in the end he decided that to save us all, he wouldn’t fly. He said ‘your comments are noted gentlemen’ and that was that. Danny was banished from the airfield and we never saw him again.
AR: How did that make you feel, you and your other crew members?
AEJ: Oh very badly about that, very badly. Then my third pilot came into it and took us over and we went on eventually and completed our tour. Well actually they did the full 30 ops and because I had missed one, the one they were on, actually the first one that I’d missed was the Nuremberg trip where we lost more aircraft than any other raid. Because I’d missed that I was officially granted my tour on 29 ops, that was that. That was how that ended and then I got on to Transport Command and so on and I was [emphasis] going to be posted to Japan and that really frightened me. I’d heard such awful stories about prisoners of war in Japan and I thought that was going to be dreadful and I said to then Wing Commander, I don’t know if it was the same one or not, ‘I wonder if I could have a training job of some sort for a while?’. He said ‘you ought to be honoured to be chosen for Japan’. I could have done without the honour. Anyway, the awful thing, but nevertheless, it saved my bacon, what was it, the atom bomb? Yes the atom bomb, because of that the war became over, the war with Japan finished and thankfully for me, I was saved the task of going out there. Then I went on to Transport Command and did various things and I flew quite a lot really but that was the end of my active [unclear]
AR: Where were you in the transport corps Alun?
AEJ: I can’t remember but I’ve got it in my logbook which is there. Yes I’ll have to look it up.
AR: After the war finished, what did you do then?
AEJ: Well, I had been, before the war, before I got called up, working with a little firm called Copy [unclear] Ltd at Treforest Trading Estate, near here, where we made carbon paper and typewriter ribbons. Before the war, as a young man I was pressing green buttons to make a machine go, red buttons to stop it, and things like that and when I came back they said ‘you’d better go in the sales department’, so I spent a lot of time writing sales letters. Which suited me because I like writing so that suited me very well. What was I going to say now, I’ve forgotten.
AR: Well you were talking to me about after the war. Tell me when you did all the work to create a memorial to your crew at Garrowby Hill.
AEJ: Yes, that’s the memorial there. We go up every year. Julie was able to take the service, bless her, as a, what is it for your church, you are a?
JEJ: That’s not part of it.
AEJ: I wanted to say it.
JEJ: I’m an elder.
AEJ: That’s it - I can’t remember things. She’s an elder at the church, so she is able to take the service, which she does wonderfully and we have, very often, and we’re hoping for the same number this time, about 40 people gathered on the hilltop for that occasion. So we do that every year on Armistice Sunday.
AR: And it was you who got the memorial put up?
AEJ: We did, we arranged that, or I did I suppose, well we both did, didn’t we? Yes we both did. We arranged it. We got very friendly with the people who did it, they did a lovely job as you will see. We’ve got the aircraft on the top and it’s a beautiful memorial. They come every time, the people who made it and I think he’s very proud of it and we’re very proud of what he did, it was a great job. That’s what we do every Armistice Sunday. We’ve done, how many? Huge number. A very big number anyway of these, for years and years and years.
AR: And you still keep in touch with - ?
AEJ: It was the seventieth we stopped at, no that was something else wasn’t it?
JEJ: Yes.
AR: And you’ve kept in touch until recently with your old colleagues from the war?
AEJ: I suppose I haven’t really. I’ve lost contact now.
AR: Alan can you tell me about going up to see the memorial and how you feel about Bomber Command being recognised now?
AEJ: Oh very thrilled, very thrilled, yes. Of course we had a lot of fighter boys here and they turned the tables really at that vital moment, but all the boys at St Athans were in fact killed. Every one that we knew, we knew well. My sister was a very attractive girl, and very vivacious, and she had a circle of friends wherever we went and she knew a lot of the pilots. We used to go and stay locally at Porthcawl at the Seabank Hotel and a lot of the pilots from Battle of Britain were there and they all died, sadly. But I think I’m wrong about not having any contact with my crew but my memory, it’s been shot to pieces. [pause] Nobby, Wilf, Geoff Taverner, yes. My bombing leader, Geoff Taverner, he lives in Newport so although we didn’t fly together, he was the bombing leader for my 51 Squadron and I see him quite regularly. He got the DFC actually. And I, incidentally, have just been awarded the medal Chevalier de la Legion D’honneur because quite a lot of my trips were in support of the French and a friend of mine over there, [unclear] Thomas, he said ‘you really ought to apply for the Chevalier Award because I’m sure, knowing your record that you would qualify’. And I did and I was. And Geoff as well, Geoff Taverner. We had a very moving occasion in Cardiff for that. It was rather lovely and the family were able to be there and it was fantastic really.
AR: Congratulations, that’s wonderful.
AEJ: It’s a nice title to have. It’s a wonderful medal, very, very handsome.
AR: That’s lovely to hear. So after the war Alun, life continued and you were working in Cardiff?
AEJ: That’s right and then I got to feel that, it was pure chance really. I wanted to help the people. Because there was a tendency to have a drink problem in my family, on my mother’s side, one of my uncles had a problem and my sister and I both inherited it. And I thought, when I heard about this job, an organisation was being formed in Cardiff, the Council on Alcoholism, if I could get in on that I would be able to help others as well as myself. I applied. My sister, however continued to drink although she was married and she had two children and a loyal husband and she didn’t mean to do these things but she couldn’t stop, you know. She was wonderfully talented, a very gifted and bright girl who drove cars at great speed. She was a tremendous character but she couldn’t quite come to terms with this and I was worried about her and it was because of her, as much as anything, that I thought if I join, if I get in on this job, I’ll learn enough to help her properly and she died the very day I was appointed. But I was appointed, and having put my shoulder to the wheel, as it were, I thought that’s what I’ll continue to do and it became my life’s work. I built up a hostel for people with the problem in Cardiff, Dyfrig House and then moved on and did Emlyn House in Newport. And then we moved on, out into the nearby valleys and did a third one, the Brynnal [?] and then my daughters, two of my four daughters, decided that this was for them so they came in, Rhoda and Lucy and played their very significant role and Lucy became the Director of the Gwent Alcohol Project and Rhoda was in charge of the Community Alcohol and Drugs Team and so we made it a family business [laughter] .
AR: That’s wonderful.
AEJ: I think over the years we were able to help quite a lot of people. The hostel in Cardiff for example, Dyfrig House, we had a Day Centre and a workshop, we had crafts that people could make and all sorts of things as well as having accommodation and support, so there was a lot happening.
AR: Wonderful. Is there anything else Alun you can remember about your - going back to the RAF, your time in Bomber Command, anything else you would like to tell us about what it was like to fly on the Halifaxes?
AEJ: Well I liked the Halifax. The Halifax of course was overshadowed a bit by the Lancaster, in the same way really as the Spitfire outshone the Hurricane. The Hurricane did a very fine job nevertheless and the same applied to the Halifax. It was eclipsed by the glamour of the Lancaster. But I liked it, on a practical basis it had much more room inside so you could move around more easily. Also, which I think is a very important point, it was easier to bail out of [laughter] . It was a good sturdy workhorse and I got very fond of it yes. It just didn’t get the glamour and people always think of Lancasters, they don’t think of Halifaxes. Of course before that, there was the Stirling, after the two-engined ones. I didn’t fly in those, I think I got one trip once but not an operational trip and of course before that we were on Whitleys. We were flying Whitleys. Yes I liked the Halifax very much indeed. I enjoyed flying actually. I mean compared with my friends who are in civilian airlines who drew thousands and thousands and thousands of hours, the whole war I think my total was seven hundred and fifty but seven hundred and fifty hours we packed a lot of stuff into it. I find it such a privilege really to work with crews like that. We became great friends, that’s the thing, it wasn’t just that we were working together, we became great friends. You know we went out together as well and met socially when we could. Oh it was tremendous comradeship. I deem myself very fortunate indeed to have had that opportunity and of course to have survived because the expectation of life was only six weeks, and so to have survived was extraordinary good fortune. We were losing boys all the time. You know, ‘so and so bought it’ that was the expression, ‘so and so bought it’ so you know one of the people we knew well hadn’t come back, they had crashed or been shot down. I mean on one daylight (sortie) I remember seeing lots of aircraft going down. Later, this particular man, lives in Cardiff so I see him quite often because I’ve got a group called 51 Squadron and Friends. The group meets quite regularly and I saw this aircraft just below me, being shot down and it turned out to be his so I was able to tell him I’d actually seen him shot down. He was then captured by the Germans but they treated him with respect. Another of my friends who was shot down in the First War was put into Pfaffenwald which was dreadful and he had a dreadful time there but then the Luftwaffe itself said ‘you shouldn’t have this man there, he should be in a proper prison, so he was transferred, that surely saved his life although he died young in the end, but that was a separate matter. But er, yes there was great comradeship. I’ve rambled on enough I think.
AR: Not at all, it’s been fascinating.
AEJ: Thank you so much.
AR: No thank you, thank you Alun very much for giving us the time.
AEJ: It’s was my pleasure. I just wonder how many things I’ve missed out.
AR: Alun we’re going to carry on now. Can you tell me a little bit about your nickname?
AEJ: Actually of course so many of my compatriots from Wales were called Taffy and I suppose I would have been but in fact Grem fitted in very well and I got called Grem all the way through my Air Force career. That’s because it’s short for Gremlin and Gremlin was the little creature who used to disturb our instruments in the aircraft, imaginary one I need hardly say [laughter] . It was short for that and it also rhymes with my name Emlyn, Alun Emlyn. So for those two reasons I got called Grem and enjoyed that nickname and I’m still called Grem by some people. Geoff Taverner my colleague and one time bombing leader from Newport, he still calls me Grem for example, so it’s very nice to have that.
AR: And animals played an important part for you.
AEJ: Yes, well when we were stationed at one place I picked up a goat, a little goat. He was a dear little thing and he used to live in my billet and used to greet me with licking my face at night and things like that but then he got bigger and bigger and bigger and I had to think of something to do with him so we asked a local farmer if he, no we didn’t, we found a spot at a water tower in the village and he would have shelter and he was on a long lead and we had him there for quite a while and then one time he got away from his lead and went all round the village eating the tops off people’s plants. That became rather unpopular so I gave him to the local farmer on the strict [emphasis] understanding he would be used for breeding and not be killed. So I hope that’s what happened, I hope he had a happy life. Then we had our dog, Jimmy, I picked Jimmy up somehow and Jimmy sort of lived constantly with us and was a great guy. I can’t remember what happened to Jimmy in the end.
AR: Did Jimmy wait for you when you came back from - ?
AEJ: Yes Jimmy used to be there. Wherever we’d been and wherever he’d been in the meantime , he was always waiting on the tarmac when we got back and he lived in my billet with me. So we had a bit of a menagerie really. I can’t remember what happened to Jimmy, pity we can’t ask [laughter]. So there we are and of course when we searched for the spot to put the memorial for the first crew at Garrowby Hill, a lot of research went into that. We had a local archivist, he worked very hard at it all. We met a girl, a woman then, as a girl she’d been stationed in that area where the crash took place and through personal contact we were able to be sure [emphasis] that where we put the memorial was exactly where the crash took place, so that was very helpful. But the trouble is Anne now, for me is that my memory is shot to pieces and I can’t remember clearly. I can’t , even though a few moments ago I had it clearly in my mind I can’t remember everything that I was told unless I wrote it down.
AR: Thank you Alun, what you’ve been able to tell us has been marvellous.
AEJ: Well you’ve been very kind and I’ve know it’s not been adequate.
AR: It’s been wonderful and it will be a great addition to the archive. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alun Emlyn-Jones
Creator
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Anne Roberts
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-12
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AEmlynJonesA161012, PEmlynJonesA1601
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Format
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00:34:11 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Alun Emlyn-Jones (known as Grem among his RAF colleagues) was raised in Cardiff and attended boarding schools in Oxfordshire. He worked manufacturing office supplies when he volunteered to serve in Bomber Command, hoping to avoid being called up to the infantry. Alun trained in Penarth and in East London, South Africa, and then worked as a bomb aimer.
Alun talks of flying on the Anson and Whitley, and of being assigned to a Halifax crew. He describes a training flight accident at Garrowby Hill, Yorkshire in which his crewmates were killed. Alun, who was hospitalised at the time, was not on board the aircraft. He recalls his loneliness at being without a crew, and the unexplained animosity towards him from a senior officer. He talks of joining another aircrew and of adaptability being a part of the role of the bomb aimer, before reflecting on his feelings about the unjust dismissal of the crew’s pilot for lack of moral fibre.
Alun recalls his transfer to RAF Transport Command in 1945 and talks of organising the erection of a memorial to his crew at Garrowby Hill. He mentions his pride at the memorial, and his attendance at annual commemorations there for many years. He goes on to reflect on his preference for the Halifax over other aircraft, his enjoyment of flying, and on the great friendship and comradeship among aircrews, describing a closeness which continued after the war. He also mentions his affection for the animals that he kept in his billet during the war.
Alun relates that he first returned to his pre-war job after the war, but later joined the Welsh Council on Alcoholism to help others and in support of his sister, whom he describes affectionately.
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1955
Contributor
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Leah Warriner-Wood
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
Wales
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Wales--Porthcawl
Wales--Newport
South Africa
South Africa--East London
Germany
Germany--Nuremberg
Japan
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Penarth
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
51 Squadron
aircrew
animal
Anson
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
gremlin
Halifax
Hurricane
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
memorial
military ethos
military service conditions
pilot
radar
RAF Rufforth
RAF St Athan
Spitfire
Stirling
training
Whitley
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/614/8883/PMusgroveJ1501.1.jpg
b7eca1ecabb2abfcc21142f7d37a6759
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/614/8883/AMusgroveJ150812.2.mp3
772053bb4cd364dadff721dd7f83f840
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Musgrove, Joseph
J Musgrove
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Musgrove
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Joseph Musgrove (1922 - 2017, 1450082, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 214 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Annie Moodie, and the interviewee is Joe Musgrove, and the interview is taking place at Mr. Musgrove’s home in Whatton, on 12th August, 2015. So Joe just to start off will you tell me a little bit about your, where you were born and your family background and school, stuff like that?
JM: Well I was born in York in 1922, my parents were Soldney [?] people, my father unfortunately had an accident when he was sixteen and lost half an arm so I was brought to appreciate the problems of people who had lost limbs. I went to school, I was at school until I was fourteen at the Loddon School in York which is very good quality school, er, did not do very well. When I went to work I decided that my education ought to be extended a bit more and spend two days a week at night school to bring myself up to a reasonable standard.
AM: What job were you doing Joe, what job were you doing then?
JM: I was working at Rowntrees which is a factory, and just ordinary work producing what is today a Kit-Kats.
AM: What did you do at night school then, what sort of things were you doing at?
JM: Well I concentrated on English and mathematics as I thought they were two basic things in life and that did stand me in good stead when I applied to join the Air Force when I was seventeen.
AM: What made you apply to join the Air Force?
JM: The main reason I think was I didn’t want to join the Army, I didn’t want to join the Navy, obvious reasons [laughs] and the Air Force appealed. The reason why in 1936 a single engined twin wing fighter landed not very far from where I was living and that got my interest in flying which I had ever since.
AM: Right. So you joined the RAF?
JM: Yes.
AM: How old were you eighteen?
JM: I joined in 19 well I went to join in 1940, had all me exams and one thing and another, but I hadn’t realised when I first applied to join that it would be such a complicated business and that, because I spent three days at [unclear] at Cardington where the airships were, going through various tests and exams and things like that, and fortunately I did quite well so they eventually accepted me as a wireless operator/air gunner and I went and trained me on that.
AM: So what was the training like where did you do it?
JM: Well.
AM: Describe the training to me?
JM: I did a bit of everything, I went to Cardington to get kitted out and I went from there to Scar to Blackpool, for initial training, which I enjoyed, because bearing in mind at the time I was just coming up to eighteen in 19. I never been away on me own before it was quite exciting to be in Blackpool in those days, and that was the doing Morse Code and things like that. I did I think reasonably well, a very kindly flight sergeant patted me on the head and said, ‘I think you’ve passed.’ I was pleased about that, and then I went on leave. And then from there I went to a place called Madley in Herefordshire for initial flying on, can’t remember the name of the aircraft now, anyhow it was a twin engine twin plane, it was my first experience of flying which I think I enjoyed at the time you went up and down it’s a little bit rough, and I found out what air sickness was all about and that particular thing, but did quite well pass there and then I went on flying with a single engine aircraft a Percival IV [?] which was quite good. And then from there on leave, Madley by the way was the place where Rudolph Hess when he came was moved to Madley first of all from Glasgow. From there I went on leave, sounds if life’s one great leave for me isn’t it, and enjoyed it. From there I went, can you just let me have a little think. I got posted to a place called Staverton, I went to the, er, railway transport office, and he said, ‘Oh I know where it is it’s not very far from blah, blah, blah.’ So off I went down to the South Coast and on to Staverton, got off train there, empty platform, I found one of the officials there, I said, ‘How do I get to Staverton aerodrome?’ He said, ‘With a great deal of difficulty from here ‘cos you’re in the wrong county the one you want is between in Gloucestershire, between Gloucester and Cheltenham.’ So they put me up overnight and the following day to Staverton which was an aerodrome just opposite Rotols Airscrews Factory. Spent some time there, I’m not quite certain what the objective at Staverton was, did a fair bit of flying. Staverton went on leave and got posted to 102 Squadron on Halifaxes at Topcliffe. Hadn’t been there very long and then moved just the other side of York, can’t remember the name of the aerodrome now, anyhow, but wasn’t on operations I was there as part of my training.
AM: Was this the Heavy Conversion Training, Heavy Conversion Training?
JM: Yes, thoroughly enjoyed it. Went on leave from there yet again, I think my parents begin to think life is one great leave for Joseph David. And from there, oh I got posted to a place called Edgehill near Banbury, which was No. 12 Operational Training Unit. From there of course I joined the usual thing there’s twenty of us of each kind, so the cup of coffee on the lawn and get crewed up which we did.
AM: How did, how did you crew up? How did that work?
JM: Well, it’s I stood there, mostly among people of my own breed if you like [unclear] and a chappie came up to me and said, ‘Are you crewed up yet?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well my pilot’s, a chap called Ces Brown, and I’m his navigator.’ And his name was dead fancy. ‘It would be very nice if you joined us and if you do of course we’ll have an idea we’ll just pop in the mess and have a cup of coffee and a beer later on in the day.’ And I thought, sounds good, so I joined them. And we did our OTU at Edgehill which was an aerodrome sit on like a little plateau which was a bit different but the beauty of it is, it was a farm that abutted the aerodrome that used to have a really good system whereby they give egg and bacon if you wanted it from the farm, which we did regularly. And from there on leave again, goodness, now this time it’s on my record in’t it this man goes on leave quite a lot. And got posted from there to 214 Squadron which was based at Chedburgh. Unfortunately on the way there I got robbed of my case with all my RAF papers in that I was studying nothing secret or anything like that but it was a bit of a loss to me, and joined 214 Squadron at Chedburgh not very far from Bury St. Edmonds. Stirlings Mark 3 Stirlings, I was quite pleased because I thought Mark 3’s, one or two were joining Mark 1’s and Mark 1’s were a little bit of a [intake of breath] I always thought a bit of a difficult thing they used to have a lot of swing on take-off, whereas a Mark 3 had one but not quite as serious as the other ones. So that was it I’m now operational.
AM: So what was your first operation like?
JM: Well it was gardening they always are aren’t they, cinnamon [?] which was just off the Baltic. I don’t know it’s when you’re sitting in the radio operator’s little compartment almost isolated from everybody else you don’t really know what’s going on outside, so what I used to approaching the target area stand in the astrodome and look out for people who were a little bit sort of not all that nice to us and that was the first one, it was uneventful insofar as we weren’t damaged anyway usual [unclear] shells and flak and that was my if you like introduction to operations. I didn’t find it very difficult at all.
AM: What were you doing as the radio operator, what did you do for your main things?
JM: Well it’s communications I suppose was the main thing about radio operators, [coughs] they it was an air gunner, the training for air gunnery and I missed that out ‘cos I did my air gunnery training on Walney Island which was nice.
AM: Near Barrow-in-Furness.
JM: It had a nice pub, and they had Boulton Paul Defiants which was nice, and enjoyed that, and of course at the end of it we did we went on leave. [laughs]
AM: So back to being a radio operator?
JM: Well the Boulton Paul Defiant one was [unclear] two seater fighter with a pilot and the turret just behind, quite fast aircraft. The only thing was with Boulton Paul Defiant’s, oh yes and the pilot that I had was a Pole who didn’t speak English and on the thing there’s a set of coloured lights which combination of each it meant something to him and to me but not necessary the same so on that we had a bit of a problem on there. And on them the undercarriage the hydraulics were a little bit dubious, if I can use that word [whispers], so the problem was if you wouldn’t come down sometimes you’d get one leg down and the other one not, so I used to take it up, oh he used to take it up to about seven or eight thousand feet put his nose down and pull it up and centrifugal force would force the other one down. Well I was a [unclear] and when I flew on it it always worked, and from there as I said before I went on leave and on to [?] squadron.
AM: So actually being the radio operator on the operation what sort of things did you have to do?
JM: Well the thing is [coughs], excuse me, when approaching the target when presumably no, no stuff was going to come off the radio, my skipper asked me if I’d go in the front turret which I did, interesting ‘cos when you sit on the front of an aircraft, with nobody in front of you and nobody at the side of you to me it was a little bit isolated and there’s only two guns in the front turret rather than four in the back, but it was not too bad and it is interesting ‘cos you get a good view of the target when you went over it. One or two times we had a difference of opinion with night fighters, which meant me spraying or hosing the guns.
AM: So you did actually use the guns then?
JM: But I never ever shot anybody down unfortunately so I can’t claim any credit for anything like that, and that was it. And of course we had leave from time to time. [coughs]
AM: How many operations did you do Joe?
JM: Well it was listed as eight, so I wasn’t all that lucky.
AM: And what sort, what areas did you target, where did you actually go on the operations, can you remember?
JM: I remember two gardening, one was cinnamon and the other one was off the isl, Ile du Ré on the Durant which was the entrance to a U-Boat base somewhere.
AM: Why did they call them gardening, why did they call them gardening?
JM: Well they codes we all was vegetables, like cinnamon and rose and things like that, so it was just a code gardening. It was supposed to be our introduction to operations more often than not on the second one we did which was Ile du Ré off the Durant, we got you’ve got to drop them at a certain height, certain speed, and we had two large ones and then going down along the powers that be that gave us the route didn’t take into consideration the facts, there was some anti-aircraft ships they used to have based there, um, which unfortunately for us were just a, if I can put it that way, just a little bit unfriendly.
AM: Describe unfriendly?
JM: And um, the I think it was port [unclear] and that destroyed the power supply to a lot of the instruments the navigator was using [coughs] so we used the, I can’t use his name, but it was “D”. The code you phoned when you were in trouble on the nights and the thing indicated it was night time and we asked for searchlight assistance to get us to our which couldn’t do, so they got us into Andrew’s Field which is an American station which mitchers [?] and marauders and of course we put this Stirling down there and of course we put the Stirling down there and of course the quite high the nose on a Stirling, and the following morning we got up there’s all the, a lot of American [unclear] looking up at us, with some right rude remarks being made about it. But the beauty of it was, was the er, one of my commanders’ said, [coughs] excuse me, ‘You can go into the PX’, I think it was called. A large building where you could buy all sorts of things, so we stocked up on, I think it was Lucky Strike Cigarettes, handkerchiefs and things like that. And I must say when we landed there we went for debriefing for these, they got the station education officer etcetera up who debriefed us and he said, ‘Well non-commission officers in the Air Force the American Air Force don’t have a mess separate, but nevertheless we can get you something that you’ll will enjoy.’ And we had steak and one thing and another for breakfast, and they said, ‘Did we mind.’ And I thought no I don’t mind but if they want to hang on to me for a month or two I don’t mind at all. Eventually we went back to Chedburgh.
AM: How did you get back? How did you get back did somebody come and fly you back?
JM: They sent a lorry for us.
AM: Oh right.
JM: Not a crew bus a lorry and we sat in the back of that, flying kit and everything. And when we went along people recognised what we were and waved to us and we waved back, which was like being on holiday, and we got back and we went on leave, which was nice. And at that time I’d been introduced to a young lady who eventually became my wife, and I went to London to, she was a Londoner, I went to London to see her.
AM: Where did you meet her?
JM: I met her in Banbury when I was at HEO, and there was no bus service from HEO that I remember into Banbury so I used to walk, it wasn’t very far six or seven miles something like that. And I used to walk in spend the day with Elsie, walk back, and we was on night flying, circuit, bumps and things like that, and after seven days I said to Elsie, ‘I wish you’d go back to London ‘cos I’m worn out with you here going backwards and forwards.’ But it was nice. So back to Chedburgh, on the 27th which is the Monday of September 1943, we was briefed to go to Hanover which we’d been before so we knew the way, at least I thought we knew the way to Hanover. I remember it quite well because the final turning point was at the far end of the Steinhoven [?] and I was illuminated by a white flare cascading at three thousand feet, and I thought great that’s exactly where we go on the last leg, unfortunately rather unpleasant German night fighters I think it was, they used to have two sets of night fighters who would [unclear] there’s the tamer soar which was the tame boar and the wilder soar which was the wild boar, and the wild boar it roamed with radar a little bit feared by the way came from nowhere and one of them took a fancy to having a closer look at aircraft and the rear gunner fought him off. The rear gunner, Tommy Brennan, thought he’d shot him down but I don’t think he did, the trouble with rear gunners they always think they’re are shooting people down and there not. But by that time by the time we’d been chased all over the sky we was down to about five thousand feet and we took a consensus of the crew whether should go on or turn back so we decided after come that far we’d keep going although five thousand feet was a little bit low for operating.
AM: Had you been actually shot up at by that time?
JM: Yes the port engine had caught fire which we put out with the Gravenor, the Gravenor is the fire extinguisher in the engine which you can only use once, got that out, got down say to five thousand feet and then got shot at by anti-aircraft fire which set the port outer one on fire, so we [laughs] the bomb aimer disposed of his little things and off we went back but it was pretty obvious we was losing fuel and the aircraft kept getting lower and lower and lower, and Ces Brown the pilot said, ‘We better bale out now otherwise I think it’ll blow up.’ So that’s what we did and I landed near Emden in the middle of a field, and the funny thing was I remember about it, it was a soft landing, so I thought get rid of the parachute and me flying jacket etcetera, but I couldn’t find a way out of the field because there was a ditch all the way round and there seemed to be no way above it to get out, so I went round again and the moon was shining on the water but just underneath the water was this black bridge that was covered by water. So I got across there and I thought right go to the village which was in the distance with a church, go to the last cottage then if it’s unpleasant I’m out in the continent. Well that was the principle but when I got to the village I’m walking along very carefully keeping well into the hedge and things, when a little thing was in me, me back, and a voice said something or other, I could never remember what he actually said but I knew what it meant and that was it, and he was, he was I think he was a Hageman [?] in the Luftwaffe on leave, serves me right for getting involved in [unclear], and he was saying goodnight to his girlfriend when I happened to walk past so I thought his eyes lit up and he thought, ooh I’ve got it, I’ve got it, and I was, and he actually took me to the end cottage anyhow. Got in there and there was my navigator, Ted Bounty, sitting there looking quite miserable but he did perk up when he saw me and that was it.
AM: What happened to the others, what happened to the rest of the crew do you know?
JM: Well see when you are baling out you’ve got to remember the aircraft is still moving, and I been bale out the next man might be half a mile further on, so I don’t know until we’d been to Interrogation Centre, Dulag Luft, and we met that was the first prisoner of war camp I went to which was Stalag VI in Heydekrug in Lithuania.
AM: Right. Tell me about Dulag, tell me about the interrogation part of it?
JM: So they sent him that picked us up to Emden and Emden which was a police marine barracks, him that picked us up, and of course on the films you see these motorbikes with Germans on with a sidecar, they sent one of those, well they sent two, one for Ted Bounty, and one for me, and off we went to Emden. And at that time [coughs] I had, every now and again aircrew a thing we used to do, one of them’s got money and I was the one that had money, currency, so I thought I’ve got to be careful here what I do with it, so I said to the interrogator and they all, interrogators they all look nice, very polite, but there are not. I said, ‘I’m awfully sorry but I must use the toilet.’ So they got a guard took me along and I went inside the little cubicle and he waited outside, and I thought I know what I’ll do I’ll put the money, it was one of the old fashioned toilets up there, lift the lid up put it inside and get it later on. That was a, so went back into interrogation and they in retrospect it was not any particular worry on that, they shout at you, they threatened you, [coughs] excuse me, they offer you cigarettes, in fact I was offered a drink, um, but I’ve always made a promise I would never drink if I was captured, at least I think I did. So I then was taken into a room and given some soup to keep me going and said to that person, ‘I must use the toilet.’ [unclear] fine I’ve got it back again, climbed up lifted it up it had gone, dereliction of duty I suppose you would if the commander found out but I tried hard to keep it. And then went from there after about two or three days by train to Frankfurt am Main which is near to Oberursal which is where Dulag Luft was, stopped at Cologne and there’s I’m in this compartment with two guards, and I thought oh gosh I don’t feel very safe here on the station at Cologne, but fortunately a Luftwaffe officer came in and what he demanded I don’t know but he came to sit in here with us so his presence kept everybody out.
AM: So it was the civilians that were —
JM: Yes.
AM: Was the worrying factor.
JM: So we got on to Frankfurt am Main and then on to Dulag Luft. Dulag Luft I’ve read many many accounts of people’s grief there but I didn’t find it particularly harrowing if that’s the best word for it, unpleasant yes but not harrowing. So again I was offered cigarettes and drink which I didn’t take, regretted it afterwards. And then after about a fortnight something like that, may be six or seven of us that was there, I mean you was in isolation by the way, they took us by tram to a park where there was a wooden hut and it was opposite the IG Farbernwerks [?], I always remember that and we’d got to spend the night there and there’s an air raid, and next to the hut was a German anti-aircraft gun unit, which pooped ‘em up all night, not particularly pleasant, but in retrospect not too bad anyhow. I think when you say in retrospect it means that as the years have gone by you’ve mellowed to the situation, and then from there we were transported by train, luxury train, well cattle trucks really, but they were clean. All the way and I think we spent, and I can’t be hundred per cent certain, but I think we spent two days and two nights going to across Germany to Lithuania to Luft VI Heydekrug, and then that was it. And then when the Russians moved and in July 1944 when the Russians were not all that far away they decided they’d move the camp, most of the camp went by train to Thorn in Poland, the rest of us about eight hundred British airmen and the Americans went by train to Memell just up the coast from Lithuania and boarded a little ship called “The Insterburg” there was nine hundred I think from Klage[?] in the hold that we were in. It was a, it was an old coal ship, a Russian coal ship the Germans had taken over, and I had got volunteered to help the medics at Heydekrug there, one of my problems in life is that I keep going and putting me hand at the back of me head to scratch it and every time I’ve done that I’ve volunteered for something and I apparently volunteered to help the medics. Particularly on aircrew that had had injuries to the joints and the joints become sort of locked with adhesions of the joints, and my job was sort of try to break them down, which was interesting on that. So I had a Red Cross Armband and when I got on “The Insterburg” I said, pointed to it and the just tore it off and backed me down [laughs], and it was a twenty foot ladder, steel ladder into the, and we was on “The Insterburg” I think can’t remember exactly three or two days and nights on that, and then we landed at Swinemünde the German Naval Base at Swinemünde. When the what appeared to be an air raid but it was an individual American aircraft, [unclear], and went from there to Kiefheide, Kiefheide Station where we was going to go onto Gross Tychow which was Luft IV, and when they eventually the following morning got us out they had Police Marine [?] men or mainly boys in running shorts and vests with fixed bayonets and some of the Luftwaffe with dogs and a chap whose name was Hauptman Pickard, I always remember, and he was stood on the back seat of a Kugelwagen which was like a German little vehicle, and shouting all sorts of things [unclear] move you to Gross Tychow Camp at a reasonably fast pace with jabbing and one thing and another and dogs biting, and a thought that occurred to me was that I’d rather be on leave right now than doing this. And it was not all that far about four kilometres from Kiefheide Station to Gross Tychow but we had lots of casualties.
AM: On the way or you had casualties that you were taking with you?
JM: Well the instructions apparently mean to the police moving people, you can do what you like but you must not kill anybody, but that gave them carte blanche to knock hell out of us. Luckily I wasn’t too bad. So when we got there we found that the camp wasn’t even finished, we slept the first night in the open. The toilet arrangement in those days were a little bit suspect and it comprised, I shouldn’t really say this, a big trench with a [unclear] over it. And then the following day we was like in we call them dog kennels, small wooden huts, we slept in there for a few nights until they got the permanent ones done and that was Gross Tychow. It was of all the camps I was in the worst of the whole lot.
AM: Worse because of the conditions or the —
JM: Well, Prisoner of War Camps are governed mainly by the people running them, they can be nice or they can be nasty, at Heydekrug there were some about average they weren’t too bad at all, Gross Tychow they were awful to any of us.
AM: Awful in what way?
JM: Well bullying and things like that, but the food wasn’t very good, didn’t have much of it. There was a man there who was six foot three, or six foot four something like that, we used to call him the big stoop, largely because I think he was a little bit embarrassed by his height and he used to walk in a stoop. He was the one that took by wristwatch, he was the one that used to knock people over and things like that. But for every villain there’s always a day of comeuppance isn’t there and when we moved out on the march towards the end of the war the Americans found him and they’d taken his head off and that was that he’d got his comeuppance didn’t he. The end of the war.
AM: Tell me about the march then?
JM: Well in February, I think it was February 2nd, they made out we had been pre-warned we hadn’t been pre-warned they told us at midnight they was moving out the following day. So you’d got to prepare everything take everything with you that you can take, and most of the people got a spare shirt, sometimes you had a spare shirt, tie the up, the arms up and button it up and it made a nice little receptacle put your things in there, and the following morning we went on the march, it was I think it was eleven o’clock if I remember rightly. And we went from Gross Tychow on the northern run to the Oder to cross the Oder, the Russians were the other side of Statin further down the Oder, and we had to take, we had to get across and what they did for the ones I was with you went into barges, there was two barges tied together and you was towed across the Oder to the other side. Unfortunately the night before when we got there the Germans said, ‘We’ve got nowhere for you to stay for the night.’ It had been snowing so we had to sleep in the open, but being aircrew boasting to the, we worked out what to do, so there’s some like a cloudy fern at the side, got those down tried to sweep away a bit of snow off, we had overcoats on.
AM: Did you have boots, did you have boots on?
JM: Oh yeah, oh shoes, in those days we’d been, well [coughs] usually when you get shot down you lose your flying boots. So the following morning I say they moved us across by barge and then we had to, we found out afterwards of course that the reason for the panic they was frightened the Russians would catch up with us, whether they was ever in a position to do that I don’t know, but the Germans obviously thought that they did. So then we went on the march across Northern Germany, various places, enjoying it, looking at Germany through the eyes of a hitchhiker. [laughs]
AM: You don’t really mean enjoying it?
JM: Well yes, but it, um, there was too many incidents happened there.
AM: What was it like, what was, ‘cos it’s cold?
JM: Well it had been snowing, remember we set out in February.
AM: Yes.
JM: And it was a cold winter. By the time we got to Fallingbostel the weather was getting better.
AM: What did you eat, what did you eat and drink?
JM: Well that’s a problem, I’ve got the world’s worst memory, so I don’t remember a lot. The two things you must do is you must get sleep and you must have liquids, liquids was a very difficult thing, some of the times the Germans got us liquids a lot of the times they didn’t. When there was snow about if you were lucky enough to get a snow that was still clean it would melt in your mouth, but that causes dysentery anyhow, I know [whispers] that’s the other problem. But, to be honest a lot of the time they found us barns and things like that to sleep in. What you had to remember at that time, March and April of 1945 it was mostly British fighter planes in the air which were having a good time, and one of the barns I was in got shot at and set on fire.
AM: How did you all get out?
JM: One or two people got killed.
AM: Did they?
JM: But to be honest the Germans tried to find us somewhere, but I’m afraid Royal Air Force fighter pilots were seeing something that’s a good target they went for it. [coughs] Fortunately we got to Fallingbostel eventually sometime in April if I remember rightly.
AM: So two months.
JM: We was then there for a couple of days on the station, the man in charge of Fallingbostel decided it was overcrowded so our little lot was moved out again on the road to Lubeck, which we went to, was one or two incidents on the way. But the man I was with, if you in the thing you’ve got to have a friend who you are with and Danny was one of mine, and Danny said to me, ‘Why don’t we just nip out sometime when we stop if there’s a time when we can do it safely.’ And there came one of those times and we just, Danny and I nipped out across the field into the woods and that was it, spent a little bit of the time keeping had to get through the German lines and through the British lines which we did when we got to the Elbe, across the Elbe.
AM: Just the two of you?
JM: Yeah, on a boat there was no oars but the hands work for oars don’t they.
AM: And did you know what you were making for that, did you know that you would find the British lines?
JM: Well not really we know the direction roughly and we’d got ears that tell you a lot, we got, there was only one time where we was in a little bit of trouble, we spent the night in a barn that didn’t have a roof but it was a barn so Dan and I spent the night in there and the village further down about two kilometres further down it was a village where there were German half-tracks and things and logic would say that they should be moving east which meant they wouldn’t come our way they’d go east and we were north of them, so we decided, we saw them moving to go so we decided we would go to the village. Unfortunately they decided to go our way north instead of going east, and it was not a lot of them I remember a Mark IV type of tank was pulling two lorries and there’s half-tracks with Germans at the back and we’re going along and they’re coming and there’s no point in running away doing anything like that, and our jackets were already prepared, chevrons everything was pulled off so there’s nothing, so we just kept on walking and we had a like a French conversation, and if they knew it was French they would have wondered what language we were talking it certainly wasn’t French but it sounded like it, and luckily they were so keen to get away they just ignored us and we just kept on going, and we just kept on going, and going, and going, eating what we could and we eventually came across an aerodrome that had some Dakotas, we went on an RAF pilot we collared him.
AM: What did you think when you finally saw it?
JM: Eh?
AM: What did you think when you finally saw it there?
JM: Well, well, contrary to what other people have said it didn’t make a lot of difference to me. It was just something was happening at the time, the fact that it was the if you like the starting point of going out didn’t occur to us, the RAF pilot he said he was on some sort of exercise for evacuation of prisoners of war, and he was, he did say he that they was taking people like to me somewhere in Belgium for transit, but he said I’m not going that way I’m going direct to Great Britain. And we talked him into taking us and he flew from there to Wing near Aylesbury, I think as part of an exercise sort of, and we got to Wing and that was the nice part. When we was coming towards, they all take you over the white cliffs of Dover don’t they you see that, and he couldn’t head them ‘cos you can’t see much so he said ‘I’ll bank to port and you can all go that side and have a look, anyway he said for goodness sake go back again the balance of the aircraft is all over.’ We got to Wing and unloaded us, Danny and I, I remember [coughs] there was WAAFS and all sorts of things, there was two rather large Salvation Army ladies I remember quite clearly came across and lifted us both up and swung us round said a lot I think then we went inside the hangar where all sorts of people came and cuddled you and things like that, yeah that was a nice thing. And one lady said to me I can send a telegram to your parents if you like, give me all the details which I did and they sent a telegram off to my mum and dad saying I was here. So we had something to eat, I always like this because you see they have all this food out and when you get a plate full suddenly a doctor comes along and takes half of it back you know, saying, ‘You mustn’t eat too much.’ And we went from there to Cosford which was set up as a reception centre, had medicals and things like that, and the station commander apparently if I believe what I’m told, given me concerning reception a chat on how to treat ex-prisoners of war and one of the things what he apparently said if I’m to believe what I’m told, ‘For goodness sake don’t leave anything lying about you’ll find it disappears you know.’ Whether that was true or not I don’t know could well have been ‘cos I was the only judge of a lot of people you live on your wits don’t you. And then after I’d been there for some time there was one little amusing incident you had to see a doctor before you could do anything you had to see a doctor, and that’s after you had been deloused that’s one of the things you get done, deloused straight up. And there was five cubicles and the word got around there’s four male doctors and one female doctor, everybody’s trying to work out where the female doctor was to avoid that one, and we, I can’t remember, say cubicle four, and this cubicle four came up you were next you used to say, ‘You go before me I’m not in a rush.’ And I got pushed into cubicle four and it was a lady doctor, mind you she was getting on a bit she was a nice lady, but it was funny the way people were avoiding her simply because they’d been away all that time. And then we were carted off [coughs] to the station, I remember it quite well it was just an ordinary little local train that went from Cosford to Birmingham, two stations at Birmingham, Snow Hill, and I can’t remember the other one.
AM: New Street, New Street, its New Street now in’t it?
JM: So we did that and when we got on the train that was going north there was just one carriage, there was an RAF policeman at either end of it and that was reserved for people like me, the train was absolutely crowded but our coach wasn’t and nice young ladies served refreshment all the time. And I got to York Station, I’d already notified Elsie my future wife and she was at York Station, and all the time I was in Germany I imagined meeting Elsie it’s a step bridge across the rails at York Station, [unclear] slow motion on that like if you’re on the films, looking forward to this, so I’m going slowly towards Elsie and she went straight past me, I remember that I thought oh dear all that time she doesn’t recognise me, it’s something you remember isn’t it, and that and at the other side there’s my sister and her husband so that was it. And I had instructions to go to the RAF York aerodrome there to see the medical officer which I did and he gave me a form to go to the food office in York, and the following day I went. A man said, ‘Join that queue.’ So I joined the queue, it was in the Assembly Rooms in York which is a lovely place, and I’m in this queue and it occurred to me there’s all pregnant women, there’s all pregnant women getting extra rations, people patting me on the back and one thing and another and I always remember that, and that was it I was back in York.
AM: Back in York, on leave.
JM: [laughs] On leave, yeah, yeah, ubiquitous leave.
AM: What happened after that then up to being demobbed how long?
JM: Well I got, er I don’t think you know that most aircrew, nearly all of them had a rehabilitation period and mine was at an aerodrome off the A1, can’t remember the name of it.
AM: No don’t matter.
JM: Doesn’t really matter, anyway I was there for a month and it just so happened the Royal Air Force band was based there so we had music, and for that four weeks what it consists of Friday morning we got up quite early and the station commander had arranged for a Queen Mary to be there on the grounds we had to go to London for some reason.
AM: Queen Mary, is that the big truck?
JM: Yes.
AM: The big open truck.
JM: And about twenty of us climbed on there and went all the way from the station about fifty miles into London on that, and we had to meet at a certain time to get back and coming back and we did that for four weeks until I got on leave yet again, to arrange the wedding with Elsie.
AM: So she’d recognised you by then?
JM: Oh yes I’d put a bit of weight on and that [laughs] yeah, and took a long time to live it down. So from there where did I go, oh I went to Compton Bassett. They decided to put me on a code and cipher course so I went and code and ciphered Compton Bassett. I was the only warrant officer there, there was all flight lieutenants and squadron leaders going to be code and cipher officers which apparently I was destined to be. So I did that and now I’m a code and cipher officer aren’t I, had to go before the board for a commission and they said, ‘The posting will be to the Middle East they’re looking for code and cipher officers.’ So next time, I got every weekend off, so I’m coming back to London to Elsie and I said I’d been offered a commission but it’s a posting to Middle East code and cipher officer, and Elsie said, ‘No way.’ So I had to turn it down. So then they thought well what do we do with him so they had to [coughs] we had a party for the people who passed the code and cipher officer, and I’m sitting next to a civilian and I said to him, ‘It’s a little bit of an impasse I’m not quite certain what to do.’ And explained the circumstances to him, so he said, ‘Write to the air officer commanding training command for this particular region and apply for a compassionate posting to where you want to go.’ Said, ‘That’s fine I don’t know who the air officer commanding is?’ And he said, ‘Oh it happens to be me.’ So he was, I got to meet him he was coming to Compton Bassett for some reason and I had an interview with him and I said, ‘Well my wife is living in Golders Green which is only two stations off Hendon, Hendon would be a nice place.’ So I got a posting to Hendon and they say what the hell do you do with him. It was nice posting, nine to five Monday to Friday living hours, most enjoyable, 24 Squadron which had the Curtiss every now and then unofficially I used to join one of them and go flying. And then I got I think July 1944 I went to Oxbridge and got demobbed.
AM: ‘45.
JM: ‘44, ’45, ’46.
AM: ’46 we’ve moved on one.
JM: Well you’re allowed a mistake now and then.
AM: Yeah go on then.
JM: And got demobbed and got involved in getting a suit. I think Burtons made a lot of them.
AM: Montague Burtons.
JM: Montague Burtons. Some of them were really quite nice, I think I wore it once, it’s the material was nice the cut not particular, but I’m demobbed anyhow. And the company I used to work for before I went in the Air Force wrote to me to say there’s a job waiting for you.
AM: Is this Rowntrees?
JM: Yeah. So I wrote back and I said, ‘I don’t mind working for you but I want to work in London ‘cos my future wife lives in London.’ They said they can’t do that. The problem is when you come out the Air Force you don’t take very kindly to being instructed and when they said we can give you a job but not especially where you want it, so I said ‘I don’t want it.’ So I went to find a job in London and I was offered a job, the people who make fridges, and they made big American ones, but the problem was the job was stores controller and the man was doing it already but he was not retiring until September October and this was early in the year. So I got a job with Express Dairy which was a place quite close to where Elsie lived and thought I’ll have that job until I get the other one, but enjoyed working at Express so much then I wouldn’t leave although the difference in salaries was quite high, and I worked for Express Dairy for all my working life, and they were taken over by various firms but I still worked for them. And one of the problems if you got taken over if it’s two people doing the same job one of them’s going.
AM: Yes.
JM: And the one that’s going is the one in the highest salary.
AM: Yes.
JM: And I kept on being retained, and I said to Elsie, ‘Must mean that my salary is too low.’ I got offered a job at the main site at Ruislip, the job was in charge of warehousing and things like that, and they said well, and then I had a heart attack everybody does if you’ve got a do you’ve got to have one if you’re in a fashion[?], and I had three months off and the chairman called me and said, ‘You mustn’t go back on this job and I’ll sort it and we’ve found a nice little job for you working as PA assistant for the director who was responsible for production.’ And that’s what I did.
AM: And that’s what you did.
JM: And Dennis Watson was my boss, well nothings been written yet so you’ve got to sit down and write your job description will go from there so that’s what I did. I spent the rest of my time on that job.
AM: As PA.
JM: And his responsibility was keeping an eye on [unclear] functions and things like that and decided on systems, his, and we had seven factories up and down the country. One of my jobs was to visit ‘em now and again, and now and again meant to me when you’re a little bit fed up you get in the car and off you go to a factory and that’s what I used to do. And then when I retired my boss Dennis made a big party at Ruislip and there was about a hundred of us there, and that was it.
AM: And that was it.
JM: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to switch off now Joe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Joseph Musgrove
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-12
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMusgroveJ150812
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Format
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01:11:32 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born in York in 1922, Joseph left school at 14 and started work in a chocolate factory and attended two nights of further education per week. In 1936, a fighter aircraft had landed nearby which stimulated his interest in flying which he retained all his life. After joining the RAF he did well in the selection tests and was offered a position of wireless operator/air gunner. After initial training he went to RAF Madley to train on twin-engined aircraft and then RAF Staverton, RAF Topcliffe and was crewed up at the operational training unit at RAF Edgehill. Gunnery training was carried out on Defiant which were notorious for undercarriage issues. Finally he was posted to 214 squadron at RAF Chedburgh, flying Stirlings.
His first operation was minelaying in the Baltic and he recalls standing in the astrodome to warn of enemy fighters. On other operations he would sit in the front turret and occasionally fire at enemy fighters, without success. Further minelaying operations were carried out and on his eighth, his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and diverted to a US Army Air Force airfield where he stocked up on goodies, unavailable in England from the base exchange store.
On the 22 September 1943 he took part to an operation to Hanover and describes the night fighter tactics in detail. Following lengthy evasive action his aircraft was forced down to 5,000 feet where it was hit by by anti-aircraft fire and he was forced to bail out over Emden where he was caught by a member of the Luftwaffe who was visiting his girlfriend. After initial interrogation he was sent to the interrogation centre at Dalag Luft and after a two day train journey arrived at Stalag 5 prisoner of war camp.
On July 1944 the encroaching Russian army forced the evacuation of the camp and he was moved to the unfinished Luft 4 camp and remembers the bullying guards and poor conditions. Again in February 1945 the camp was evacuated and after crossing the River Oder in barges marched across northern Germany. After two months he arrived at Lübeck and escaped the column, narrowly missing being captured by German soldiers by conversing in French. Finding an allied airfield he was repatriated to England where he was treated as a hero.
After recuperation he attended a code and cipher course and was offered a commission if he would go to the middle-east. Wanting to get married he declined and wangled his way to 24 Squadron at RAF Hendon, were he was eventually demobbed in July 1946.
Contributor
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Terry Holmes
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Herefordshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--London
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany
Europe--Oder River
Germany--Lübeck
Poland
Poland--Tychowo
Lithuania
Lithuania--Šilutė
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1936
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1943-09-22
1944-07
1945-02
1946-07
102 Squadron
214 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
crewing up
Defiant
demobilisation
Dulag Luft
Halifax
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Madley
RAF Shenington
RAF Staverton
RAF Topcliffe
shot down
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
Stirling
strafing
the long march
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/634/8904/PRobinsonD1601.1.jpg
6f5724486c610bd863a402940f8cc060
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/634/8904/ARobinsonD160911.2.mp3
4f37bc0e490f864de3f1ed0ae6cedfbd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Robinson, Douglas
D Robinson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Robinson, D
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Robinson (1922 - 2017 1215638, 170413 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 158 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Douglas Robinson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DR: Unfortunately, when I came to Oundle people started calling me Dougie and if I, if there’s one thing -
GR: You don’t like. Yeah.
AM: Right. We won’t do that. Right. Here goes then. So, my name’s Annie Moody and I’m a volunteer with the International Bomber Command Centre and today we’re in Oundle and it’s the 11th of September 2016 and I’m with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Robinson and he’s going to tell us his story. So I’m going to start off, if I may, just asking what your date of birth was.
DR: Date of birth.
AM: Yeah.
DR: 27th of July 1922.
AM: ’22. Right. And where were you born Doug?
DR: Where?
AM: Where were you born?
DR: I was born in Skegness.
AM: Skeggy. And what, what did you parents do? What was your family background? What was your family like?
DR: Well my father was a retired warrant officer from the Indian army and that’s, that was it. He was retired. He did a job as Registrar of births and deaths for the district around there. Well the, not the district. Skegness and one or two surrounding villages.
AM: Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters or -
DR: Sorry?
AM: Did you have brothers and sisters?
DR: Yes. I had three of each. Three brothers. Three sisters.
AM: Right.
DR: My eldest brother also went in to the Indian army but he, not until during the war and he was commissioned into the Indian army. Had to come out I’m afraid when they gave India independence.
AM: Right. And what about schooling? What was your schooling like?
DR: Skegness Grammar School.
AM: Yeah. Did you enjoy it?
DR: Well. I didn’t dislike it. Didn’t really enjoy it.
AM: No.
DR: It was alright at times.
AM: How old were you when you left? Sixteen.
DR: Sixteen.
AM: Sixteen. So you would be, that would have been 1938.
DR: Yes. 1938. Around there.
AM: So what did you do when you left school?
DR: I went into a bank. The, have you heard of the TSB? I started as a junior clerk in the TSB and it was strange actually because it was a brand new office. They built it and you know there was no business there and there was the manager and me. The manager was only in his early twenties. He lost his life in the navy during the war.
AM: Right.
DR: I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it but there was a [terrible buzzing noise from interference on microphone -] [a ship, a naval ship escorting the Queen Mary from the [?] across the Atlantic bringing American troops and I think it was the Mary was a lot faster than the cruiser that he was on and so it zigzagged to keep the -] And one day bright sunshine as it is today, middle of the afternoon the ships came together and neither of them gave way and the Mary went straight through it, total loss of life. He was on that. His widow, she was, she’s dead now, she got a pension from Cunard as a result of that.
AM: Blimey.
DR: [?]
AM: So there you were though, a bank clerk with your, with your young manager.
DR: Yeah.
AM: And along came the war.
DR: [not then?] What made you join, what made you join the RAF?
DR: I don’t really, I don’t really know. I did a year in “dad’s army,” The local defence volunteers and then I don’t know I began to think I ought to be doing a bit more -
AM: Ok.
DR: For the war than this.
AM: What were you actually doing in the defence, in “dad’s army” then?
DR: Well we used to guard things that didn’t need guarding. The electricity power station, power thing and the gas works and the funny one was the telephone exchange because they’d built a new post office at Skegness and the telephone exchange was on the top floor so you’d be defending the telephone exchange but people would be coming for posting letters anyway[laughs] I mean.
AM: When you say defending it, defending it with what?
DR: Rifles.
AM: Oh you actually had rifles.
DR: For a year I had a 303 rifle and, I think it was fifty rounds of ammunition in my bedroom every night.
AM: Did you ever, did you ever use it in anger?
DR: No. No. We practiced firing but we never used it in anger.
AM: Yeah. So -
DR: There was -
AM: Sorry. Go on.
DR: There was a scare, a national sort of scare about September of 1940 that the invasion was about to start and we were called out with one of the local, one of the army units that was stationed locally and went out in to the country and spent a cold night out there. Came back next day when it was all cancelled.
AM: But I interrupted you ‘cause I asked you how come you joined the RAF.
DR: Well as I say I felt I ought to do a bit more and I think, oh what really eventually did it. One of my jobs at work was to go to the post office and I went in one day and they’d got a leaflet there which was in sort of three sections and the first one it was about pilots joining and they got twelve and six pence per day I think it was and the next one was navigators and they also got twelve and six pence a day and the third one was gunner eight and sixpence a day so I thought well I can’t fly, well I’ll never be able to fly and I’d done reasonably well in my school certificate maths so I thought well navigator must involve mathematics so I went. I sent this form off to become a navigator and I went to Lincoln for an interview. I’m not sure whether it was at Lincoln or if it was somewhere else but anyway there was a board of three officers. I think it was a group captain and he said, ‘Why do you want to become a navigator?’ And I told him and he said, ‘Well, why don’t you want to be a pilot?’ And I said, ‘I don’t think I could, could do that,’ so he said, ‘Well, I think you could. Would you be guided by me?’ And so I said, I said in my ignorance, I said, ‘Well if I went on a pilot’s course and failed it could I then become a navigator?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘You’ve my assurance on that.’ It shows how green I was. But anyway I agreed to become a pilot and that was it.
AM: And that was that. So, so talk me through it then. What happened? So they’ve decided you’re going to do pilot training,
DR: Yes.
AM: How did that all start? Where did you go first for -
DR: Well first of all I went down to a place near Torquay. Babbacombe near Torquay and I got in a flight there of about thirty five of us and it was my first experience of RAF jiggery pokery because the NCO in charge of the flight said, ‘I know the postings clerk and for,’ I think it was, ‘sixpence a head I can get you posted where you want to go,’ you see so we all wanted to go to the same place. So I paid my sixpence and all the rest of it and we paraded in the little theatre they’d got there on a Saturday for the posting and of course they posted the wrong Robinson. He, he went on my sixpence. So I had to sort of stay there. I stayed the next week and went along for the posting things and I wasn’t on that one. Then on the next week I found out the, I found the NCO who I’d paid my money to and I said, ‘Look I’m fed up being here. Get me posted this week or else.’ And I got posted but instead of going where the others had gone to Torquay I was posted up to Scarborough and I did my initial training at Scarborough and from there I went to Southern Rhodesia.
AM: Right.
DR: To do my flying training.
AM: How did you get to southern Rhodesia?
DR: By troop ship. Really packed with troops. They were going to -
AM: Where did it sail from?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Where did it sail from? Can you remember?
DR: It actually sailed from Glasgow. We were, we were in West Kirby in the Wirral for a few days and then they took us up to Glasgow and we sailed from the Clyde in a convoy, a big convoy. Called at Freetown on the way and then around to Durban.
AM: How long did it take? Ish.
DR: It seemed forever but -
AM: Yeah.
DR: We were in Freetown for several days whilst they refuelled and one thing and another and then as I say went around to Durban.
AM: Were there any scares while you were on the boat?
DR: Not going out. No.
AM: No.
DR: No. We were all at, we had a big convoy. We had, I was trying to think of the battleship that was with us. It was in Freetown near us. It went on from there to the Far East and when they sank the Prince of Wales it was sunk at the same time. I can’t thing which one it was now.
GR: Was that the Repulse?
DR: Repulse.
GR: Repulse. Yeah.
DR: Yes. Repulse I remember sailing past it as we went out of Freetown. Went. Yeah.
AM: So there you are a boy from Skegness.
DR: Sorry?
AM: So here you are a boy from Skegness.
DR: Yes [laughs]
AM: In Rhodesia.
DR: Yes. Yes.
AM: So what was that like? What?
DR: Well it was, it wasn’t bad at all really. We, there was a transit camp we went to first which was the old, it was a showground really and we were in the cattle shed, cattle, where they used to display the cows and so on, had the things on the floor we sat on but it was alright. That was just near Bulawayo. Then we went up to what was then, well now Harare anyway and that’s when I started my flying training. Initial training.
AM: So what was the training like? How did you -
DR: Training on Tiger Moths. And I had a very nice Australian instructor. Very good with me otherwise I wouldn’t have passed but –
AM: How, how did they go about teaching you to fly?
DR: Well he sat in the front cockpit and I sat in the back and communicated by tubes but, but he, he told you what you do and you would do a movement with him and then he’d tell you to do it on your own. It wasn’t really all that difficult.
AM: Could you drive a car at the time?
DR: No. No.
AM: No.
DR: I learned to fly eleven years before I learned to drive a car.
AM: The reason I ask that is because it’s pretty much the same I guess. Somebody’s showing you how to do it and then you do it.
DR: Yeah.
AM: And how long was that training? Were there any alarms and scares in that?
DR: That, that initial training we started at the beginning of November and finished at Christmas.
AM: Right.
DR: And then –
AM: So quite quick.
DR: Moved back down towards Bulawayo for the service training which there were two lots of stations, for service training. One for single engine aircraft by and large expected to go on to fighters and the other for twin engine so we went on the twin engines, the old Oxfords.
AM: How did they decide which you were going to be?
DR: Well you were asked your preference but you didn’t necessarily get it but they obviously had a certain number to post to each place and they made up the number if, but I went on the one I wanted to do actually. The twin engine one. And -
AM: So what did you go on to then then as a twin engine -?
DR: That was the Oxford. It was a –
AM: Right
DR: Wooden aircraft actually. It was designed, it was a nice little aircraft actually.
AM: Yeah. Tell me a bit more about the training then. Any alarms and scares or did it all go smoothly?
DR: Well, yeah, I had a, had a little prang on night flying. The airfield there, it had, it was strange ‘cause it was a grass airfield but there was a concrete thing across one end which we taxied on. You’d land and get on there and beyond that there was a lot of wasteland which was sort of elephant grass you know and that, this night I took off. I think it was my first night solo and I took off but didn’t do it very well and I finished off skidding along the ground in this elephant grass. So I got out and started to walk back and I met the crash thing coming. He said, ‘Have you seen the pilot of that aircraft?’ And I said, ‘Well I am the pilot.’ [laughs] So that was it. But that was all. That wasn’t much. It wasn’t very scary. I mean, just slid along the ground.
AM: Just skidded. It was like a skid.
DR: It was just, I mean, you know, people weren’t overjoyed with you [laughs].
AM: I was going to say, well that was going to be my question. What happened? How much damage did you do to it?
DR: Oh I -
AM: And what happened as a result?
DR: I imagine, I don’t know really what they did. Whether it was written off or not. It probably was. I don’t know. But no. We, we got away with it.
AM: And what happened as a result? Did you just get a telling off or just -
DR: Yeah I got a bit of a telling off and that was about it, about it but the funny thing was they immediately rush you to sick quarters because they think you know there must be some [laughs] you must have some injury, internal if not, but I was in sick quarters overnight I think. That’s all. And then I had to go down to the flight and went with an instructor around, around the low flying area. Supposed to get over your nerves or something.
AM: Climb back on the bike.
DR: Yeah.
AM: So to speak.
DR: Yeah. So that wasn’t really much though.
AM: So what next? You’ve -
DR: Well when we eventually passed out from there and got our wings and so on we went on a train down to Cape Town and then we got on a troop ship that was coming back to this country, almost, there were a few people on but there was about a hundred of us from Rhodesia and there were also some people who had been on air crew training in South Africa. I’ve got a book by one of them in there. Coming back we got on this ship in Cape Town, the Oronsay which was, there was a line called the Orient Line and they only had about four or five ships and they all started with the letters OR Orient, Orion, Orontes and so on and we’d been on our way to Free, going to go to Freetown on the way back, on our way and then in the early morning when it was still dark there was a horrible bang [laughs] and a torpedo came in. I heard the torpedo hit, hit the ship, I heard it hit the things, heard the in-rush of water and I heard the torpedo go bang and I thought it’s time to get up so we got out. There wasn’t, there was no panic. People went quite quickly but quietly upstairs. Unfortunately when we got on deck, well I suppose we knew it before we got on deck but my boat station was on the port side but it had developed a great list to starboard which was where the torpedo had gone in. So all the boats on the starboard er on the port side couldn’t be lowered so which, so went around to the starboard side and there didn’t seem to be any. They’d all either gone or, so I went, I went back to the port side and they had several rafts there and I let one of these rafts go and it went down into the darkness and I thought well there’s not much point in following that. I didn’t know where it had gone so when I went back around and where, oh there was a boat about to go, the last boat. I met a friend of mine actually on the way around and so we went to get on this boat and the chap standing in the thing said, ‘Just room for one more,’ and my friend got on first. He said, ‘Room for one more.’ My friend said, ‘Can’t you get my friend on? There’s room for,’ ‘No, only room for one.’ So he got on and I didn’t [laughs].
AM: So then what happened?
DR: Well there were, this ship, I think with it being a converted ship, you know it was a peacetime liner and they’d converted it for a troop ship and they’d got it so that they’d got one boat inside another. Both used the same lowering gear, what do they call them? Davits or whatever and somehow they’d managed to lower this one right on top of the other and it was across it.
AM: Right.
DR: And so quite a number, well half a dozen people had gone down and were trying to get the top one off so I thought well I might as well go and have a go with that so I went down the ropes and having a go, put my shoulder to it and all the rest of it. You couldn’t budge it at all. It was [?]. We saw the captain’s boat go down, the captain get in and his officers and they started to go away and we thought well, you know, this is a bit odd but anyway he came back for us.
AM: Right.
DR: So we got off in his boat although after a while he transferred us to other boats to even the load out. So that was it.
AM: So where did you all get? So you’re all there in the lifeboats. Where did you get to?
DR: Well -
AM: And had it, had the main the ship sunk by this time?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Or –
DR: Well we, no it was, we were all in these lifeboats. I think there were about sixteen lifeboats successfully launched and we’re all sort of around the ship and the captain decided that it wasn’t going to sink so he started calling for volunteers among his crew to go back and sail the thing and I thought, anyway he’d no sooner done that then there was another great bang and another one, another torpedo went in. I think, I think they fired another three and eventually the thing instead of being listing it righted itself but then it gradually went down, the stern went down and the -
AM: Yeah.
DR: Nose came up and then down she went.
AM: That was it. So what happened to the lifeboats? How did you -
DR: Lifeboats.
AM: How did you come ashore then?
DR: Well we rowed for eight days.
AM: Eight days.
DR: Eight days yeah. Actually the first night it rained and rained and I had the misfortune to sit or probably, probably the good fortune to sit near the pump and it were only a little diddly thing you did this with. I was doing that all night, pumping but everybody else was baling so probably I had the easy job but we, we had to pump a few times and then after about, as I say eight days, we tied up actually, we tied nine boats in a row. It was the captain’s idea we’d stay together. I think we had nine boats in our row and there was six in the other I think. Six or seven. And after the first night we never saw the others again. They sort of disappeared but our nine stayed together. On the eighth day the, a lot of the crew were getting a bit restless. They said it would be better to be separate. We’d make more progress if we were separated and in the early afternoon the captain said, ‘Alright. Separate.’ We all separated and we’d no sooner separated than somebody spotted a Sunderland Flying Boat. It was only a little dot miles away. I mean people started sending up flares and I wondered what was happening and then I realised what it was. This Sunderland came over and circled us and dropped a few things with food in and he was in touch with the CO in Freetown and they said they’d be sending a destroyer out to us at midnight. So we sat patiently in the boat until midnight and then this destroyer appeared and we thankfully went up the scramble nets and we just sort of -
[machine pause]
GR: Life boats.
DR: I think so. I think so.
GR: Yeah.
DR: I’m not, I wouldn’t be certain.
GR: And did all the lifeboats make it to the dest -?
DR: Well some of, there were different stories. You see our nine, our nine stayed together and we were all picked up, I think, at that time, taken in.
GR: By the destroyer. Yeah.
DR: By the destroyer. Taken into Freetown but of the others some, some were adrift for about twelve days I think.
GR: God.
DR: And some were picked up by the Vichy French.
GR: Yes. Of course.
DR: Taken in to Dakar
GR: Yeah.
DR: And they were interned there for some time and there were quite a few ladies actually. Well half dozen or more. I think they were nurses. I know there was a squadron leader and his wife. Well, time expired and coming back and his wife -
GR: Yes.
DR: And what happened to her I’m not sure but apparently when they interned these blokes in Dakar they took these ladies to the border with, I forget what the British territory was but whatever it was.
AM: I can’t think.
DR: And they just set them loose and they were quite a few days trekking to the nearest place.
GR: And you never saw anything of the U-boat, the U-boat didn’t come after the survivors or –
FR: For years I thought it was a U-boat and people said that it had.
GR: You’d better record that.
DR: People had said it had surfaced and the captain -
GR: No.
DR: But it actually wasn’t a U-boat. It was an Italian ship, Italian submarine.
GR: Submarine. Right.
DR: Called the, I forget what it, I’ve got a book, a little book there.
GR: Yeah.
DR: But it was written by one of the chaps who was trained in Southern Rhodesia, er in South Africa and he actually became, he was, he’d been a foreign officer clerk and he went back to the foreign office and he became ambassador in Norway I think and somewhere else and is now sir somebody.
GR: Sir Archie Lamb.
DR: Archie Lamb. That’s right.
AM: Goodness me. That came as a, all of that came as a surprise because I don’t think you knew that did you?
GR: No.
AM: No.
GR: No. No.
AM: So you all finally get back, I mean I’ve got loads of questions I could ask like what did you eat and drink on the boat?
CR: I was going to say –
AM: Were there provisions on the boat?
DR: Sort of you know emergency rations. Small biscuits. Probably two or three of those a day. Horlicks tablets. You remember Horlicks tablets? Well we had those. They were nice. The funny thing was there was a lad from Spalding. I think he was a member of the crew, I think he was a steward or something and he was in the lifeboat with me and he didn’t like Horlicks tablets so I got all his Horlicks tablets [laughs] and then we had some water and they had a thing like a test tube. They used to bring it up about and you’d half full of that and you’d watch everybody drinking ‘cause you were making it last as long as you can you know swilling it around.
AM: Was anybody in charge on the boats or –
DR: Yes.
AM: Making sure that -
DR: Yes. One of the crew was in charge of it.
AM: Right.
DR: I forget what they called him now. I don’t know whether, whether it was his position on the ship or whether it was just, bosun. They called him bosun. Whether it was ship’s bosun or if it was just his title for being in charge of the lifeboat I never knew.
AM: But you all got back so -
DR: Yes. We got, we got back.
AM: So you all got back then. How did you all get back to Britain from there?
DR: Well we, the destroyer took us into Freetown and we didn’t get, we even get ashore in Freetown. They ferried us across to another troop ship which was actually a Greek, had been a Greek ship the Nea Hellas and we were on that coming back. There was apparently a bit of scare that it was being shadowed by a, but anyway we never, never got worried by it. It was never. We got back to England alright.
AM: So that was that. So then what happened? So you’re now a qualified pilot.
DR: Oh yes I was a qualified pilot. Well we landed at Glasgow. As the air force would arrange these things they put us in a train and took us down to Bournemouth. And the Bournemouth was run by, it was a receiving place for the Canadians mainly and it was run by the Canadians and there was a Canadian group captain there. Oh, whilst we were on the boats the merchant navy blokes had said to us, ‘When you get home you’ll get twenty eight days leave. Survivors leave. We all get it,’ he said. ‘You’ll get it.’ So when we got back we asked for this survivors leave and do you know what we got? They said you get twenty eight days. We got seven days. And that is the, that is how I got the title of my book. We had a, paraded in a cinema in Bournemouth and a group captain came on because he was welcoming the Canadians to this country and so on and he said something about, ‘Welcoming you to this country.’ He said, ‘Some of you have had great experiences in getting to this country but then life is a great experience. Adventure. Life is a great adventure.’ So I thought when I wanted a title for my book I thought that’s it. The group captain’s given it to me.
AM: So you’re in Bournemouth.
DR: Hmmn?
AM: Then I’m just trying to think chronologically of what happens next. Do you carry on with your training but go to Heavy Conversion Unit? What? I can’t remember what order things come after that.
DR: Yes, yeah from I’m not sure where, we went first to Operational Training Unit.
AM: Yes.
DR: To get crewed up.
AM: Right.
DR: Started at a place called Wymeswold and finished at Castle Donington which now of course is East Midlands Airport.
AM: Yes.
DR: And that was on Wellingtons and from there we went to Marston Moor which I’ve already told you about. Meeting Cheshire. And from there to 158 squadron.
AM: Ok. Do you want to tell me the Leonard Cheshire story again for the recording? Tell me the Leonard Cheshire story again for the recording.
DR: Well the night after we got to Marston Moor we decided we’d go in to York and three of us went to get on the bus but the bus had gone so we went out on to the road and decided to thumb a lift which sergeants weren’t supposed to do and we were, it was quite a long road. We could see a car approaching and we stood there thumbing and suddenly realised it was an RAF car and as it got nearer we could see it was an officer driving and when he pulled up we could see that he’d got four rings on his sleeve and he was a group captain. And he said, ‘Alright. Get in.’ So the other two jumped in the back and I had to get in, open the front passenger, well I opened the front passenger door and his cap was on the seat and so momentarily, momentarily you don’t know what to do. So do I, I can’t touch his cap, I can’t sit on the seat while it’s there but anyway eventually he said, ‘Don’t sit on my bloody hat.’ So I picked the thing up, put it over the back and got in.
AM: And he took you to York and dropped you off at –
DR: Bettys Bar. Yes. You’ll finish up there anyway.
AM: So, anyway, so back to the chronological order. You’ve crewed up. How did they crewing up go? Who chose who?
DR: Crewing up well yes it was, it was reasonably good. I was in a hut and I got to know ‘cause they bring in, I mean if they’re making say twenty crews they bring in twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty bomb aimers and so on and I was in this hut with quite a number of other people of various trades, and I got to know a number of the wireless operators and I met them actually in a pub in Loughborough as well and they’d got an air gunner with them so the four of us seemed to go out quite a lot together. I had to make a decision which wireless operator I had. I could only have one of them and so I selected one and so that was my wireless operator and my rear gunner. I needed a navigator and a bomb aimer. There was a navigator we’d got quite friendly with and I asked him to be my navigator and he said he’d already agreed to be somebody else’s but he would find me somebody who was, and he found me a navigator. A very nice bloke and a good navigator and the navigator found me a bomb aimer. It was funny actually because all the bomb aimers, bomb aiming had only just, bomb aimer as a, as a trade had only just been introduced and they were trying to popularise it I think and so they commissioned most of them. I think of the twenty, twenty five that we had there were only three who were non- commissioned.
AM: Right.
DR: So nobody wanted the non-commissioned ones. They thought there must be something wrong with them if they [laughs] so I got a commissioned one and that was the initial crew until we went to -
GR: Heavy Conversion Unit.
DR: Heavy Conversion Unit on to Halifaxes when we got another gunner and a flight engineer.
AM: And a flight engineer yeah.
DR: And they were just detailed to me so I didn’t get a chance to -
AM: Ok. But you got the full gang.
DR: So I got the full gang but didn’t always keep them I’m afraid. The rear gunner I had, we were very friendly together but one night he refused to fly. Well, he didn’t refuse to fly. We, we were going to Berlin actually and we taxied around, do you know Lissett?
GR: Lissett, yes. Yeah.
DR: Well normally we could approach the runways on either way. This particular night as it happened we were all coming from one direction and it was very fortunate because I got the green light and as I got the green light to go on to the runway this gunner said to me, ‘I don’t think I ought to go.’ I said, ‘What did you say?’ He said, ‘I don’t think I ought to go.’ And I thought well I can’t go anywhere. What do I do? I can’t, can’t call up the flight control because of the radio silence but as I say with the other side being vacant I just taxied straight over and parked on the, on the taxi -
GR: On the side. Yeah.
DR: The, the other side and I thought well air traffic control are going to see me there. They’re going to think well what the heck’s he doing? And they’ll find out and fair, true enough, after a little while the officer in charge of night flying was Brian Quinlan. I don’t know if you knew Brian. He came out on his motorbike and I said to my, my temper by this time was a little frayed and I said to this gunner, ‘You’d better get out and tell this officer what you’ve just told me.’ So he got out and within a few minutes Brian Quinlan appeared in the cockpit and he said, ‘Taxi back. Taxi to the next intersection, you know, where the runway came in, turn and come back again and wait here.’ Which, which I did. And when he got, when I’d no sooner got back there then he appeared on the runway on his motorbike with a spare gunner on the pillion and this poor bloke got in, got in the rear turret and that was it. We went away.
AM: And what happened to the other one? Just disappeared.
DR: Yeah. Well yeah.
AM: Lack of moral fibre.
DR: He was court martialled and it was a sad old time really. I had to go as a witness. I don’t know who I was witnessing for but I mean I, but it was, I felt sorry for him in a way because he looked so dejected and you know he’d been a nice enough bloke.
GR: How many operations had you flown by then?
DR: I don’t know. I should think probably about eight or something like that.
GR: About eight. Yeah. Ok.
DR: What, what he, I think what probably happened the one the previous one we’d done was Milan and it was over nine hours and it was in, coming back anyway, it was in bright daylight and he, I think he was a bit nervy all the way. He kept saying, ‘What’s that on the port starboard, on the port bow Paddy?’ Paddy, being the mid upper and Paddy in a broad Irish accent, ‘Och it’s only, only a bit of cloud,’ you know, and this sort of thing but you could tell really. I mean at the time I never thought anything of it but afterwards, after the refusal to fly and so on it struck me that his nerve had gone by that time I think.
GR: Because when you flew back from Milan it was complete, you flew back over France didn’t you?
DR: Over Switzerland.
GR: Over Switzerland.
DR: And France.
GR: And France yeah. In daylight.
DR: Yeah.
AM: What, what, so when he was court martialled what did they actually do with him?
DR: Well. Well he was court martialled. The funny thing was they questioned, when they questioned me it was strange they wanted to see was he actually ordered to fly. Well I mean they didn’t order for a standing place, ‘You’ll fly tonight’. ‘You’ll fly tonight.’ I mean it wasn’t like that. Just a board went up and the names of the pilot was on and -
GR: Yeah.
DR: You took that crew went and that was it but he was actually as I say court martialled. Ordered to be reduced to the ranks and to serve eighty four days detention but the AOC didn’t confirm it so he got away with it.
AM: Right.
DR: He got off and Calder I don’t know whether he rang me, or spoke to me one day and said, ‘As he wasn’t found guilty he’s still on the strength of the squadron and I don’t suppose you want him back do you?’ I said, ‘You’re right there.’ [laughs]
AM: That’s a no then. Yeah. So what did they do with him? Did he stay or -
DR: I don’t know what happened to him eventually.
AM: As ground crew or -
DR: I don’t know what happened to him eventually.
AM: Yeah.
DR: He would be posted away I think somewhere.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
DR: But it was, I don’t know, a pity, you know how Group Captain Pickard was at -
GR: Yeah.
DR: He wasn’t there in my time. He was there before I got there but he had a couple of horses at a farm there and our dispersal we lived on was one field away and this gunner was a real horsey type so he used to go and look after these horses. Groom them and one thing or another and then we [laughs] we used to ride them down to the pub [laughs]. Well we used to get on and they knew the way to the pub and so we’d go. There were three of us. One would ride a bike and the other two would go on a horse and we’d tie them up outside the pub and have a drink or two and then they’d know their own way home and of course we lost all that when he went but –
AM: We’ve jumped a little bit because we’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit. What we didn’t say was that you were posted to 158 squadron at Lissett.
DR: Yeah that’s right.
AM: So I’m just. So you’re on 158 squadron now.
DR: Yes.
AM: So the stray bod that you got did you keep him or did you get another?
DR: No. No. He, I got another one.
AM: Right.
DR: I got a Canadian.
AM: And kept him.
DR: Yes. I kept him. I was with his, one of his sons and two daughters last week at 158.
AM: Wonderful.
DR: They come over every year.
AM: I’m going to jump again now then. So I know that you’ve done a number of operations now and I know that you either have done or are going to do Berlin.
DR: Yes.
AM: So tell me about Berlin and what happened.
DR: Well this night of course with having this kerfuffle with the, we were about fifteen, twenty minutes late taking off so I tried to make that up as best I could but it could, got to Berlin and nearly everybody else had gone so we had the whole Berlin defences to ourselves and it’s a long way across Berlin and it was very, very well very, very lonely flying across it. We think there was a fighter had a good, started to attack but I’ve an idea that it was a Mosquito was around and chased him I think so we didn’t get attacked. We got over quite safely that time.
AM: That time.
GR: Yeah.
AM: So tell me about -
GR: How many times did you go to Berlin?
DR: Three.
GR: Three.
AM: Three.
GR: Yeah.
DR: It was -
AM: So, on the third one -
DR: On the third one we were, we’d just dropped the bombs, the bombs had gone and there was an almighty bang. It really was. I’m sure it was a direct hit and the nose of the aircraft just started going up, straight up in the air which isn’t very healthy, I mean it could go into a stall in no time but I just could not seem to get it to stop and I said, ‘Prepare to bale out,’ because I thought we’ve had it and I realised the moment I’d said that the intercom was dead so I thought I’ve got to do something about this. I got a chap, you know we used to take a, when a crew came to the squadron he usually did an operation with an experienced crew.
AM: Yes.
DR: Well, and I’d got this chap, second pilot. I got him to put his leg across my legs and push on the control column. I was, I’d got it under my knees like that and he was pushing with his leg and we flew I think for over two hours, two and a half hours like that and the nose was trying to come up all the time and it was just above stalling I think. And I flew along. The Baltic was on the right and I thought to myself, shall we go to Sweden? And I thought, incidentally, we were all supposed to be on leave, we should have gone on leave that night. It was an incentive to get back but I was thinking about Sweden and of course I knew nothing about Sweden. With my boyhood knowledge I thought it was very mountainous so you know how could we flying in to mountains trying to get, so I decided I wouldn’t go to Sweden. We’d try and get home so we kept on and weeventually got to the Dutch coast and we were there at the time we were supposed to have been back at Lissett. We’d got winds against us of very nearly a hundred miles an hour. The aircraft was only just above stalling speed and I thought well I’m not going to go, I couldn’t risk going across the North Sea. We wouldn’t have got, we wouldn’t have got any more than half way across. If that. So I thought, and by this time we were down to five or six thousand feet. I can’t really remember but there was a light flak battery firing at us and doing a bit of damage so I thought well the only thing is we’re over a friendly country. Bale out and we might get in with the underground and you know so I baled them out.
AM: If the intercoms had gone how did they know to bale out?
DR: The only way, actually, the flight engineer. I told him to go around and tell everybody to bale out which he did. He, and then he came back and I said, ‘Have they all gone?’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ And I said, ‘Well you’d better go then’. Of course we stowed his chute and my chute together and he was supposed to get the chute, two out, bring me mine, put his on and go. He came back and he said, ‘One of them was damaged.’ ‘So I said, ‘Well you’d better take the other one then.’ ‘No. No. I can’t. I can’t leave you.’ I said, ‘No you get in. Take, put that on. Get out.’ And he argued and I’m not going to argue and told him three times to get out so I said, ‘Well if you’re going to stay you’d better get back in to the rest position and brace for,’ I didn’t know, you know I realised I’d got to somehow get the thing down and I flew along looking for a decent, a good field and eventually, well it wasn’t long actually before I saw a field I thought I could do it -
AM: Was it daylight by now?
DR: No. It was -
AM: ‘Or dawn?
DR: Yes in-between sort of thing. Yes. It was sevenish in the morning. Something like that. And it was, I think it was lighter looking down than when you actually got on the ground. Anyway, we got down and skidded to a stop and got out and had a, well the funny thing was I thought I’d better go back and see if he’s alright and this is [laughs] this is the truth I walked back to him and instead of being braced he was standing up and he said, ‘Are we down?’ ‘Who the heck’s flying this thing?’ [laughs]. You know.
GR: Well that’s a compliment to the pilot.
DR: It was. Yeah. Anyway we got out the escape hatch and then we were having, I thought we’d have a quick look at the damage and we were having a look and as you say it was half-light or not quite half-light and he said, suddenly said to me, ‘There’s somebody the other side of the aircraft.’ And so I went around. I thought the only thing to do, whoever it is, oh and he said, ‘He’s got a gun.’ I thought well the only thing you could do is confront the chap so I walked around and didn’t need any confront, he was friendly. He said something about, I don’t remember whether he said, ‘Have you had a meal?’ Or, ‘Would you like a meal?’ And I thought, I was thinking I want to get away from this aircraft as far as I can as quickly as I can so I refused it and we walked. We left the thing and we walked on. We walked out through a village and up a country road and there was a bend in the road and there was a farmhouse there and the farmer outside so we went to him and asked if he could give us a drink of water or something and we had a drink of water and I asked him where we were and he brought out a little school atlas and, ‘There.’ And there just about covered the Netherlands. [laughs]. I thought well I was a little bit clued up about –
AM: Yeah.
DR: Which country it was. Anyway, we went in his house and to get to his house you went through a cowshed. I noticed there was a sort of hay loft sort of thing you know so I asked him if he, if we could get up there and he said, you know shook his head and talked about the Germans you know, shoot him and so on. I can understand his point of view.
AM: Yeah.
DR: So we decided, well I decided we wouldn’t stay and we got out of the house and two Dutch policemen came around the bend on bikes and they came to us. One was a young bloke and the other was a bit older and they, I don’t know for certain but it seemed to me that the young chap wanted to turn us in and the older one wasn’t very happy. He looked as if he was a bit tearful actually but anyway they, he had to go along with what the younger one wanted to do so they took us back to the village we’d come through and telephoned the Germans. And that was it.
AM: And for you the war is over.
DR: Hmmn?
AM: For you the war is over.
DR: Yes. Well, that, that was the greeting yes. For you the war is over.
AM: So what year are we in now? Is this -
DR: That was January ’44.
AM: ’44.
DR: January the 29th ‘44.
AM: So when the Germans came and got you where, then what?
DR: Well they took us to what was obviously a house which they’d taken over as a sort of place for their troops to live in and we were there most, so funny actually because they made us turn our pockets out and all this sort of thing and Lofty the engineer he’d taken an orange out of the, that we had in the flying rations and of course he’d got this orange and he put it on [laughs] and it was so funny ‘cause there were Germans coming in and poking it. You know. They’d never seen an orange before [laughs] But we were there most of the day and then they took us down to the station, local station and we went by passenger train up to Leeuwarden. I don’t know whether that’s the pronunciation L E E W A R D E N. And there was an NCO in charge of us and two other blokes and the NCO, he walked in front with a drawn pistol and one of the others walked at the side of us and the bloke with a submachine gun walked behind us and I thought well if you let off with that you’re going to get your mate in front here as well but anyway they paraded us through a long street in Leeuwarden and it was so funny I mean there were people walking past victory signs, thumbs up and there was a tram car came along and it just kept pace with us and you could see all the passengers in there doing this -
AM: Thumbs up and -
GR: Victory signs.
AM: V for victory to you.
DR: And we were sort of, yes. Acknowledging it all. I mean, it was, it was so funny really because it wasn’t what they were intending but they were showing off to the Dutch that they’d got the, you know -
AM: They’d captured you.
DR: Yeah. They got the terror fliegers and all the rest of it and anyway they took us along in to a big compound. Well a sort of parade area. It was a naval barracks and they opened a cell door and pushed us, well didn’t really push us, made us go in and there was all my crew there except one. They’d picked them all up except one.
AM: All of you. The whole lot. Did they know that they were your crew?
DR: I don’t know. I imagine so. I imagine so. And he, actually he, the one that was missing wasn’t really one of my crew, my mid upper gunner was a Southern Irishman and we were all supposed to go on leave that night. Well he used to get a couple of days extra for travelling to Southern Ireland and he’d already gone so this chap that was with me, this Canadian standing in and of course they hadn’t got him and he was the only one who did make it to the underground.
AM: Right.
DR: Apparently some farmers found him. They’d got the little pens out for the sheep to go in, supposed to be lambing or something and they found him hiding in one of these and so they took him in and looked after him for a time and I don’t really know the full story but he was eventually picked up with the underground in Antwerp or somewhere so he they’d got him quite a way away but he were betrayed and that was it. He was finished in another prison camp. I never met him again. He didn’t get, I did meet him again in a reunion after the war but I didn’t during the war. We thought he was dead. I thought he must have had an accident baling out and you know and that’s it. And -
AM: We, we spoke to someone else who exactly the same thing happened and I think the escape line, the escape line was the KLM line.
DR: Yeah.
AM: That he’d been, and exactly the same. Captured at Antwerp.
DR: Yes.
AM: So the whole lot of you there minus one. And where did they take you from there?
DR: From, yeah, they took us, the same night I think they took us to a Luftwaffe station. Actually it was a Dutch station it was about the biggest or only sort of regular air force station. I can’t remember its name. And we were in the cells there for the best part of a week I suppose. They tried to interrogate us and so on and then from there they took us to Amsterdam and we were incarcerated in Amsterdam jail for a week or so. Yeah.
AM: Where did you end up? Which prison camp did you end up in?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Which prison camp did you end up in?
DR: Well, from, after we go into the interrogation place we went to, or I went to, some of us went to Stalag Luft 6 which was up on the borders of East Prussia and Lithuania. We were there until July of ‘44 when the Russians were pushing the Germans back. The Germans had got right in to Russia.
AM: Yeah.
DR: And the Russians pushed them back and we could actually hear the artillery fire and we were beginning to get a bit worried about what might happen if we were liberated by the Russians but anyway they then took us, not all of us but I was one that was taken, they took us to, in the cattle trucks down to Memel which was in the port of Lithuania. I don’t know what it is now. I couldn’t pronounce its name now but it was called Memel. We were put in a little tramp, in the hold of a tramp ship which was filthy and we were about, I think we were about four days from there to, oh dear, I forget the name of the port now.
GR: Don’t matter.
AM: No. It don’t matter.
GR: Don’t matter.
DR: A German port in
GR: Yeah
DR: Sort of [?] When we got off into cattle trucks again and we had, I think, one night. Oh they, as we got off that, the boat they handcuffed us in pairs. I thought I was being clever and I asked if anybody was left handed so we had could have one left hand and one right but we didn’t. I got this Canadian but apparently he was right handed too but he had his right hand handcuffed to my left and we were, officially we were handcuffed together for about three or four days but we soon learned how to take them off actually.
AM: Oh good.
DR: So people were taking them off.
AM: I’m just thinking when you’re doing the necessary -
DR: Yeah.
AM: Ablutions and things like that you don’t necessarily want to be handcuffed –
DR: That’s right.
AM: To someone.
DR: No. We, people soon learned the key of a corned beef tin came handy with that. It used to be out -
AM: But where did you get the key of a corned beef tin from?
DR: Off the corned beef tin. Red Cross parcels.
GR: Red Cross Parcels.
DR: Red Cross parcels.
AM: Oh so that was your rations. Right. Ok.
DR: Anyway, we and then we got to Stalag Luft 4 and we had a very rough reception there. We got, we got to the station, or the siding, very early in the morning and it was a really hot day and they kept us in the cattle wagons ‘til about two in the afternoon and we got, got out and of course to try and carry all your, what belongings you had, I mean, for example I had a greatcoat. We were wearing greatcoats. It was the easiest way to carry them and it was really hot. And anyway about 3 o’clock they got us out of the things and we lined up and there was a German officer got up, and he, he’d got, he’d got an immaculate white tunic on. Oh really. And instantly, instantly became known as the ice cream man. But he was obviously in charge and they marched us out on to the, on to the road, lined up and there was a lot of cadets, naval cadets that came and they were all armed, all, and he ordered them to fix bayonets which wasn’t a very friendly thing to do and we started walking along, or marching along this road and they started saying –
GR: Thank you.
DR: They started saying, ‘Quicker. Quicker. Quicker’ and we were getting, until eventually we were sort of running and then we were in a wooded thing then suddenly they turned left and there was steep hill and we were going up this hill and they then tried, they were then aiming to jam you in your backside with these bayonets and of course people were throwing all their stuff away to lighten the load. I’d got a haversack thing on my back which I couldn’t take the stuff out so the Canadian who was running with me he got it open. He was throwing stuff out and we ran up this road and you could see people with blood coming down them, and I passed one poor lad I knew. I don’t, I can’t remember his name but I knew and the chap he was with had obviously passed out and he was there -
AM: And he’s still handcuffed.
DR: Handcuffed to him. Couldn’t move. You could see he was absolutely terrified the poor lad. He was only a very young lad I think. And then we got to the, eventually got to the top of the hill and turned and about a half a mile away was the prison camp and we, we got there. I hadn’t been touched actually until I got there and then one of them got his rifle up and started having a go at my ribs but he didn’t really do anything hard. He tried and didn’t. And then they called them off and we went into the vorlager, sort of first place. Not right in to the camp and we were there all night.
AM: When you said, you said they were cadets so were they just, were they teenagers or young. Young.
DR: Well I suppose they were, no I suppose they were eighteen year olds.
AM: Right.
DR: Sixteen, eighteen year olds. Yeah. But, they’d, all the other guards of their own but a lot of them, but it was, it’s always been known as, ‘the run up the road.’
AM: Yeah. So how long were you in there for then? Where are we now? July did you say? July 44?
DR: July then until February of the next, of the next year when we started on the Long March.
AM: So you did the Long March.
DR: Three months of that.
AM: And what was the worst bit of that?
DR: Sorry?
AM: What was the worst bit of that?
DR: The weather. It was so cold. Snow and ice and sleeping out at, some nights, we did sleep outside some nights. Most nights they found a barn or something like that more or less but we had one or two nights out. But one night we went to a farm and there were three large farm buildings in a row with thatched roofs and I think they put some of their own transport in one. In the end one. We were pushed in the centre one and some army prisoners in the left hand one and we were tight in this thing. When we, they’d got straw in the floor and when we laid down at night we were head to toe in a row and touching each one. It was as close as that and during the night we heard an aircraft flying over and we could hear it approach and it dropped a bomb on the, and it hit the thing where they’d put all their stuff and it flew away again. Came around machine gunning and I was lying down there. I could see tracer bullets coming through the straw you know and he hit the wall on the side and before there was a little ring of fire and it just spread like mad and it was, the whole lot was going and people just sort of got up and walked out and that’s it. They didn’t really run.
AM: No.
DR: But um -
AM: Did you, did you see it? Was it an allied?
DR: Sorry?
AM: Was it a British plane or a German?
DR: Oh we take it that it was probably a Mosquito. We’ve always called it the Mossie raid. I mean we were just guessing at that. We sort of -
AM: Yeah.
DR: I think it would be an allied one.
AM: Then when –
DR: I think there were, there were three or four of our blokes were killed.
GR: And then towards the end of the long march I presume you walked into allied hands.
DR: Well yes. We were very, it was a great day to remember. We, we were stopped in a village and we sort of spent the night in a barn and this, and I got up to make the coffee and there was Americans with us as well and I suddenly heard an American voice shouting, ‘The limeys are here. The limeys are here.’ And looked and it was the 6th Airborne Division coming through the village.
GR: Brilliant.
AM: Yeah.
DR: What a day that was.
GR: What a day that was.
DR: And they were throwing tins of their rations to us you know and we didn’t eat half of them, more than we, actually it was, everybody was just having a good time.
AM: What condition were you in by then?
DR: Well -
CR: He looked a bit thin on the photographs.
DR: Yeah I was very thin and I think I got frostbitten feet. They were always cold. We was lousy. [laughs].
AM: Yeah.
DR: But apart from that we weren’t too bad.
AM: So how did you get back home then from that, that stage?
DR: Well, they, the 6th Airborne asked us to stay there that day because they were bringing all their stuff through and then we get up to, oh what was the name of the place, what was the place where Montgomery took the -
GR: Luneburg Heath.
DR: Yes.
GR: Luneburg Heath. Yeah.
DR: Well that was the town.
GR: Yeah.
DR: And we had to get up there the next day and it was quite a thing because people were pinching bikes and cars and all sorts of things to get up there and we were a bit slow off the mark. We couldn’t find anything but we found a bloke who was going out in a pony and trap thing so we got on board there and I sat, jiggling mind you it was a beautiful sunny day. It was quite a nice ride, trip and we eventually we got to a village and we stopped for a drink. Went in the pub and demanded a drink and of course when we got out the pony had gone but one of the Canadians, our Canadians came along driving a bus so we piled on to this bus and it was so funny ‘cause there were Germans were walking back on the side of the road and everybody was trying to get a good hat.
GR: Souvenir.
DR: If you could see an officer with a nice smart hat. Boom. [laughs] No. It was. I got a sword.
CR: Yes you got a sword didn’t you?
DR: Going through a village, a great big pile of swords so I got out and had a look and picked one I liked and still got it.
AM: Wonderful. Might have to have a photo of that.
DR: Sorry?
AM: We might have to -
GR: Have a photograph of that.
AM: Take a photo of that. How did you eventually get back though to England?
DR: Well, we, we were flown back. RAF Dakota.
GR: Dakota. And back to England was you? Was you demobbed straight away?
DR: No. No. Actually I stayed in the air force for three years after the war.
GR: Oh.
AM: You were probably deloused first weren’t you?
DR: Hmmn?
AM: They deloused you first.
CR: They deloused you.
DR: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CR: You were lousy when you came back.
DR: They more or less did that when we landed. We landed at a place called Wing. I don’t know.
AM: Yes. Yeah.
DR: And I was posted to Wing.
GR: Yeah. We know Wing.
DR: Soon after but they arranged it quite well actually. They sort of deloused you and they set it out like a restaurant or café and the ladies would bring you tea and coffee and then the buses took us into Aylesbury and put us on a train up to Cosford.
GR: Yeah.
DR: And then I went on leave from Cosford.
AM: Had you been able to tell your parents? Did your parents know that you were alive?
DR: Yes. Yes. Actually, yeah, I think the Red Cross had told them that I was.
AM: Right. Ok.
DR: And the night we got back the RAF gave us forms that we could send telegrams. So we got telegrams to say we were back.
AM: Yeah.
DR: But -
AM: And that was that but you stayed in for another three years.
DR: Yes. What happened was that when I was shot down I was a flight sergeant but had been interviewed for a commission and the commission came through backdated about a month before I was [laughs] before I was shot down. So I came, when I came back I was actually a flying officer and it rather appealed to me. I thought well here I am, a flying officer, I’ve never been in an officers mess in my life and I was when I got back though and I thought, they gave us interviews to see what we wanted to do and I said, ‘Well I would like, I want to stay on flying.’ And, ‘Oh well, you know everybody wants to do that who wants to stay in.’ People who, others just want to get out. And I applied for a permanent commission and when they put me on flying I thought that’s it I’m getting my permanent commission but it wasn’t so. I extended my service for two years and towards the end of the two years I extended another year. At the end of that time I had a letter telling me that the king thanked me for my services but he didn’t want me anymore. [laughs] So that was that.
AM: Thank you and goodbye.
GR: Yeah.
AM: In the, in that three years though you were flying. Where? Whereabouts? What -
DR: I flew Lancasters then instead of Halifaxes.
AM: Yeah.
DR: Yeah I flew. I was in, well, we had to more or less had to go, start our training again. What happened you see there people there who’d been POWs four or five years so they had, obviously had to have a refresher course if they wanted to go on and so they didn’t really just make a refresher course for us they stuck us on the course that the new entrants was doing, you know, people doing for the first time which was alright. We went back on to Oxfords and I did Oxfords and then on to Wellingtons and then on to the Lancaster Conversion Unit and then from there I went to the central signals establishment which was at, we did about, I think I did a bit over a year there and Cicely and I lived out. It was just after we got married actually I went there and -
GR: ’Cause that’s the one question we’ve never asked. Did you two know each other during the war?
DR: No.
CR: No.
GR: No.
CR: I didn’t even know him.
GR: Right.
DR: Yeah it was quite an interesting job on central signals. We used to, well we got various things. There were two squadrons, one calibration squadron their job was to go around calibrating the approach landings. I forget what they were called it now. The blind flying approach.
GR: Yeah.
DR: That was their main job. We were the development squadron. We were supposed to develop, test fly new things but of course we were test flying things that had been used during the war [laughs] and, but we had other things to do. We used to test the Gee coverage over France and Holland and so on and over Wales and Ireland and so on. We used to have a route to fly and pinpoints to go over and it had two cameras in the aircraft which took pictures simultaneously. One of the ground and one of the set so that they could be compare the -
AM: Right.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
DR: But invariably one of them went wrong so they’d say, ‘Let’s do it again.’ But it was quite interesting. We also had to, people that were doing the calibrating and what not in Germany we used to have to take them over with all their equipment and fetch them back and so on. That was a bit of bind but one of the funniest, probably the funniest thing in my career was when I went to fetch a load back once and they weren’t ready. I went on the Friday and they weren’t ready. They was going to be ready on the Saturday morning so I said, ‘Well I want to be off by 8 o’clock at the latest,’ And they got to get all their equipment there and so on. But anyway when we eventually got them in the aircraft it was the COs monthly parade on the airfield. Lutzendorf I think it was and they’d no parade ground, they used to parade on the runway. So I was about to taxi out and the parade was getting on, forming up on thing there and my temper was getting a little frayed to say the least so I had words with air traffic control and then after a few minutes they came back and said, ‘Well the parade’s going to march off the runway onto the overshoot area until you’ve gone so you’re alright to go along there, turn and take off.’ So I, ‘Fair enough. I can do that.’ And they all marched off and I got along there and I turned, as I turned I opened up the throttle up. All the caps went. [laughs]
AM: Wonderful.
DR: Didn’t stop to see them sorting them out.
AM: And off you went into the wide blue yonder. What did you do after the, after you’d left the RAF?
DR: Sorry?
AM: What did you do after you’d left the RAF?
DR: I went back to the bank.
AM: To the bank.
DR: Yeah. Eventually. Yeah.
AM: At Skegness?
CR: He did one flight in a Lanc over Biggin Hill didn’t you? The first Biggin Hill.
DR: Yeah. Well yes just before I came out. It was the first time they’d done this Battle of Britain day thing you know and all the stations wanted a Lancaster. They all wanted a Lancaster and -
CR: Winston Churchill was there.
DR: And I think our people agreed to supply about four or five or something. Well I wasn’t going to do it on this Saturday. I know they didn’t put my name down for it anyway and then my boss, the squadron leader, said to me, he said, ‘Why don’t you come with me?’ he said, ‘I’m going down to Biggin Hill. We’ll have a day out’. So I said, ‘Alright.’ So that was on the Monday. On the Tuesday he went off on leave. He said, ‘I’ll see you on Saturday morning.’ ‘Alright.’ On the Friday afternoon air traffic got on to me to say Biggin Hill had been on the phone and they would like the Lancaster to go down today for obvious reasons. They’d only got a short runway and if you make a mess of it they can clear the mess up before the crowds come in tomorrow. I mean that was obvious what it was. So, you know they said Duchy is on leave. You’ll have to bring it so I thought fair enough. I took it down and -
GR: Sorry to interrupt you but when you do flights like that -
DR: Yeah.
GR: How many crew did you have? Did you have like a flight engineer with you, a radio operator?
DR: I think I had a navigator, a radio operator and, an engineer, I think.
GR: Yeah. So the four of you.
DR: I don’t think we needed any more than that.
GR: Yeah. Sorry.
DR: I had a lot of odd bods who wanted to get away for the weekend you know. Poured out when I said that.
AM: But you didn’t really need a rear gunner.
GR: No [laughs]
DR: But no it was funny actually and of course it was a big display.
GR: Yeah.
DR: The guest of honour was Winston Churchill.
GR: It was the first Biggin Hill Air Show.
DR: Yes. The first Biggin. Yeah. Winston Churchill was and the funny thing was that, you see nearly all the other things were fighters and doing aerobatics and so on and the CO of the squadron came to me and he said, ‘Would you do three engine flying?’ So I said, ‘Yes. I can do three engine flying. I’ll do two engine flying.’ ‘Oh that would be nice,’ he said. Afterwards I thought I’m an idiot because we were supposed to practice three and two engine flying but the maximum height, rather the minimum you weren’t, I think for two engine flying you weren’t supposed to come below five thousand feet. So I thought well five thousand feet they won’t see me. So Winston Churchill’s going to be down there. What the heck do I do? I think eventually I compromised a bit but I didn’t, I didn’t go the full hog down to a thousand feet or anything like that. We went down a bit below what we were supposed to do. I did the two and two on one side look spectacular.
GR: What you flew with two -
DR: Two on one side.
AM: So both on one side.
DR: Yeah.
GR: And both -
AM: Going and the other one’s not.
DR: Yeah.
AM: Does that not make you –
GR: Yeah.
DR: No.
AM: Swing around.
DR: You hold it alright and the -
AM: Ok.
DR: But the big shock, the only trouble you get is if, if they cool down to much and you can’t get the flaming things started [laughs]
GR: I’m sure you were alright.
DR: Yeah but -
CR: Would you like a cup of tea or anything?
AM: I think we’re done. I think we’re done actually.
GR: Yeah.
AM: I’m going to switch off now.
[machine paused]
GR: It wasn’t Len McNamara was it?
DR: Sorry?
GR: It wasn’t Len McNamara.
DR: No I don’t think so. I don’t think it was McNamara. No.
GR: Because Len had rear gunners.
AM: The one question I would have asked as well was just, so you flew the Halifax operationally but then the Lancaster after so which -
DR: Yeah.
AM: Was your favourite and what are the pros and cons of the two?
DR: Well I’m still a Lanc, er a Halifax man.
GR: Halifax.
DR: I think it’s nicer to handle. Certainly nicer to get in and out of and you know there was not a lot to choose between them I think but it’s on things like that that I would judge it.
GR: And to be fair everybody who we’ve asked the question of who -
AM: Prefers Halifax.
GR: Served on Lancs and Halifax they all said the Halifax.
DR: Halifax. Yeah.
GR: They said, ‘Alright the Lanc -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Douglas Robinson
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-11
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARobinsonD160911
PRobinsonD1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:33:56 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Lithuania
Zimbabwe
Germany--Berlin
Lithuania--Šilutė
Great Britain
Lithuania--Klaipėda
Mediterranean Sea
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-09
1944
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas was in the Local Defence Volunteers before joining the Royal Air Force as a pilot. After Babbacombe, he did initial training at Scarborough and then in Rhodesia. Initial flight training in Harare on Tiger Moths was followed by service training on Oxfords at Bulawayo. Douglas had an eventful passage home when his troop ship, the Oronsay, was torpedoed by Italian submarine Archimede and he spent eight days in a lifeboat.
After returning to the UK, Douglas went to an Operational Training Unit to get crewed up, initially at RAF Wymeswold and then RAF Castle Donington on Wellingtons. He went to RAF Marston Moor and on to 158 Squadron at RAF Lissett on Halifaxes where he describes an encounter with Group Captain Leonard Cheshire. Douglas relates how a rear gunner refused to fly and was court martialled.
Douglas flew three operations to Berlin and on the third took a direct hit. After most of the crew baled, he managed to land in the Netherlands before being taken prisoner. Stalag Luft VI, on the border of East Prussia and Lithuania, was followed by Stalag Luft IV after the Russians approached. For three months Douglas was part of the Long March before being rescued by the 6th Airborne Division and flown back home.
Douglas stayed on for three years after the war. He was posted to RAF Wing and went up to Cosford as a flying officer. He attended a Lancaster Conversion Unit and flew Lancasters. He finished at a development squadron at the Central Signals Establishment. He recalls flying a Lancaster at the first Biggin Hill Air Show in front of Winston Churchill.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
158 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
forced landing
Gee
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military discipline
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Lissett
RAF Marston Moor
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
strafing
submarine
Sunderland
the long march
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/648/8918/PTomlinR1503.2.jpg
5feeef4c71584185da2d1aebf6d7e5b7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/648/8918/ATomlinR150818.1.mp3
109034737a77a609cefe84b0dd75762f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tomlin, Ron
R Tomlin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Tomlin, R
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Ron Tomlin (b. 1923) and three photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron. Collection catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Okay so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, and the interviewer is Annie Moody, the interviewee is Ron Tomlin, and the interview is taking place at Mr Tomlin’s home in Streetly and it’s the 19th of August 2015. So, Ron, can we start with, can you just tell me a little bit about your family and where you were born, and your family background, what your parents did and school and stuff like that?
RT: Right, we was born in a place close to Shrewsbury, it’s called Ford, a little village, erm, I only lived there for a short while because my Father had come back from the First World War and he’d got himself a little van and he got a job with the post office, and then the post office got their own vans and er, so his little job dried up and we, and without his van he really didn’t have any trade apart from the fact he was a bit of a mechanic, he knew a bit about motor cars et cetera, and so they came back to Birmingham and they did their best. But, my Father had been gassed in the First World War and he couldn’t have a job inside because he was always spitting, and in those days people thought this was like a dirty habit, but modern information tells me, that spitting into the fire was the most hygienic way, they didn’t have paper hankies in, they couldn’t wash out, disinfect. We lived in a little back house, erm no garden, outside toilet that sort of thing and erm, this went on, my Mother tried to get her five children educated, my older brother went to grammar school, I went to grammar school but only on my second attempt because I didn’t pass high enough to get a grant for the books, and they couldn’t, my Father was unemployed, my Mother earned a living with washing and things like that, cleaning, and they, they couldn’t afford the extra grammar school fees, but because my older brother had gone, when he'd been there two years, I passed again, I could now go because I could have his books and his rugby shirt and things being passed down and so on, that went on until I was fourteen
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: When I ran away from home, I went to stay at my auntie’s house in, close to Shrewsbury, close to where I’d been born, on a farm, until my Mother bought me back, but I just didn’t want to go back to that grammar school, I didn’t want to learn French, I didn’t want to have a different life to all my friends, because nobody else I knew apart from my brother had gone to grammar school and in the end, erm and in the end that was accepted and I became apprenticed to a carpenter, and I say a carpenter, he was a big firm and he, he fitted out bars, Gaskell and Chambers, after a couple of years of that, I was fed up with that, and I wanted to get more money and the war had just started. I was sixteen, I was able to break the apprenticeship because I got a job doing war work at the BSA factory, and er, so I started working there and it wasn’t long afterwards, erm, one of the things that got me interested in the airforce was that the BSA had an ATC squadron, that’s the Air Defence Cadet Corp which became the ATC, and because this was the early days and because I was interested, I got a fair amount of promotion in that, and so when the BSA factory got bombed in nineteen forty one, I got fed up with clearing up after bombing and went with a couple of friends to join up. Now, we all wanted to be pilots
AM: Of course
RT: And they sent us away to Cardington for a three day test and I was accepted for pilot training, erm the other two, one was thrown out because he had flat feet
[loud aircraft noise]
AM: Because he had?
RT: Flat feet
AM: Flat feet
RT: Medical
AM: Yes
RT: And the other one, he was slightly older than us, he was accepted but into the RAF Regiment, so he didn’t come home with us, he was now in the airforce, he’d been thrown out and I’d been put on deferred service until I was old enough to start my pilot training, came back to Birmingham, I had to do evening institute work, navigation and things of that sort, until in nineteen forty two, late January, nineteen forty two, I was called up, I was now eighteen, erm eighteen and a little, and I went to Lords, the usual place for aircrew, I went to Scarborough, erm I had a problem with my feet, and when I’d finished my Scarborough breaking in, marching and all that, I was put into hospital to have toenails removed because they’d been bleeding, when that was finished and that took some time because I was eventually sent, it went wrong and I was sent back to Birmingham into Selly Oak hospital, I then went back to Carlisle, and I did my twelve hours pilot training
AM: Twelve hours? [emphasis]
RT: Yes, pilot training, at the end of twelve hours, the instructor said, ‘I’m not going to let you take off and land on your own, we haven’t got enough aircraft to let you crash,’ and so, I was placed into aircrew
AM: Right
RT: Sent away to the Isle of Man, and I eventually passed out with an observer brevvy, I’d done that, done navigation, bomb aiming, air gunnery and from the Isle of Man with my brevvy
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: I’d come back to Hastings in England, where I was being trained with advanced navigation, when the school got shot up by German planes, it was on the sea front and they shot out all the windows, and because we were now, some were needed to go, I got posted up to Lossiemouth and, to join a crew
AM: So, Hastings to Lossiemouth, how did you get from Hastings to Lossiemouth?
RT: By train
AM: Right
RT: By train with a warrant and a change of crew or whatever, and this and that or whatever, and from there, I joined up with five other people in what was known as Dibben’s crew, all the names are then, and for about three months we thought we were about to go out over Germany in a Wellington, we thought we were ready to go, we’d been doing a lot of flying particularly at night and we’d been, we’d had all sorts of mishaps, we’d had engine failure in Scotland, we’d had, we’d been shot by anti-aircraft guns over Oxford, we were ready to
AM: [laughs] Sorry to interrupt, what plane were you doing that training in then?
RT: It was in a Wellington
AM: You were in a Wellington, okay
RT: We were the Wellington crew ready to go, but then they said, you are going to be transferred to a Halifax
AM: Right, so at that time there were only five of you because you were a Wellington crew?
RT: There were only five of us, that’s right. So, we went back to Marston Moor in Yorkshire, under a CO who was Leonard Cheshire
AM: Right
RT: And we spent a few weeks learning to fly the Halifax
AM: Sort of, conversion training
RT: And we picked up an extra gunner called Agnew, and we picked up an engineer called Bob Hollinrake, but Bob Hollinrake is waiting for his cremation next Tuesday
AM: Yes, very sad
RT: That’s the last of the crew, yep, so erm, when we were then ready we were posted to 10 Squadron at Melbourne
AM: Right, okay
RT: And we got there in early July and we noticed, at the time I didn’t realise this was happening, but I know from records since, that most of my crew were being borrowed by other crews to go on missions. The pilot went twice, the navigator went twice, the engineer went twice, one of the gunners went once, and I was just sitting waiting for whatever
[loud aircraft noise]
AM: So, at that point, you hadn’t, had you done your first operation?
RT: No [inaudible]
AM: What was that like then, waiting while your mates were off doing operations?
RT: It’s one of the mysteries of life, because I and Louis Ure, the other man that didn’t go, have discussed this many times, we didn’t know, we were never waiting for them to come back, we were never asking them what it was like, we didn’t know, whether we would have been allowed to go if there was a raid on, we wouldn’t have been allowed off the station anyway, so we must have known, but for some reason it’s not in our minds now, so we don’t know
AM: Maybe, your just young and getting on with it
RT: That’s it, but then, late in July, probably the twenty second, twenty fourth of July, as a crew, we went to Hamburg
AM: The first one
RT: The first one
AM: So, what, what did, tell me about the day then, the bacon and eggs and then, did you have bacon and eggs?
RT: We, we always had a nice bacon and egg meal when we came back
AM: Right
RT: Yep, and we erm, I believe we had a good meal before we went, but the day of any operation is from lunchtime onwards, is being briefed, not only are you being briefed as a whole crew, each of your separate trades are being separately briefed about this, that and the other by the master bomber or the chief engineer or whatever, and then erm, in the early evening you are preparing for your trip, you are checked to see you are not carrying this, that and the other, you’re having your meal and eventually it’s time for you to be taken in your little van with the nice WAAF driver, and to your dispersal point, and there’s twenty aircraft almost surely being taking off and it takes a bit of time to get, it isn’t like, you see, twenty fighters taking off in the Battle of Britain, erm, all in dispersal places, they all have to assemble, they all have to fly off and gather on the coast before you set off in your wave
AM: And there’s a lot more men than there were in the fighters in the Battle of Britain, there’s seven of you in each plane
RT: That’s right, yep, and so erm, and then of course you don’t see much apart from the back end of other aeroplanes or something going wrong, because it’s all dark you know, nobody’s got lights on and the radio silence, but so, but when you go to a place like Hamburg which is already burning, you see it from a long way away, and our second big, [unclear] no serious incidents on our first trip to, our second trip was also to Hamburg, two or three nights later and we had a problem, we found that our oxygen system had failed, particularly there was none to the rear gunner who was singing as if he was drunk, and we made contact with our base and were ordered to get down low because of the oxygen, returned to base
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Eject your bombs in the sea
AM: Why was he singing because he was drunk, from lack of oxygen?
RT: From lack of oxygen, yeah, and it wasn’t clear whether the whole oxygen system was failing or just his part, but without a rear gunner protecting us we were too vulnerable anyway and they wanted us to come back, so they bought us back, erm, that was in my memory as being one of the raids, not knowing what time or where it was, but the man who made the film, looked up all the records and assures me that it was on the second Hamburg one we went on, and we were not too far over the sea when it happened according to him, in something like an hour and three quarters we were back home, whereas we would have been six or seven hours across the sea to get back down
AM: What happened, what did you do with the bomb load when you were coming back?
RT: We dropped it in the sea, we ejected it, and we had trouble with that too, we reached the stage where we even considered chopping out the, the last of the bomb bay racks for which we had a chopper, we’d been briefed on that if you had to get rid of them, but it actual fact a lot of shaking about, eventually they all went but not all in one place, but seeing as you was over the sea it wasn’t too bad. Two or three nights later we went back out to Hamburg again, this time no problem, that was a good mission, and so two out of three Hamburg runs were okay, and then this squadron was stood down, they had been on a lot of operations in July and early August and we were given a three day pass, I think they shut the whole squadron down in order to try and bring the planes back up to
AM: Scratch
RT: Because, I mean, on our first two missions that we did see planes sink, we did see planes going down, and these, we did encounter searchlights but the drill was always the same, you know, left, left, [unclear] and whatever, we reckoned we did have a good pilot and no serious mishap. So, having had our three day’s we went back
AM: Where did you go on your three days?
RT: We didn’t
AM: Oh, you just stayed there
RT: We stayed there, we stayed there, we, Louis and I have discovered that whilst we stayed there, the
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: we, the skipper was entertained at the navigator’s house in Staffordshire, and we always ribbed them about this, ‘why did you take him and not us,’ and we always used to take the mickey and that sort of thing, but erm anyway, this has all come out later on
AM: Yes
RT: In those days, none of those things would have probably, so we, we then, soon after we got back off our three day break, we were sent to Mannheim, which is a long trip, not across the sea, down England, right across Paris, right across Germany to Mannheim, seven hours sort of trip, and on our way back one engine overheated and we were forced to shut it down, so when we got back to base, we assumed that we could happily go to bed and we wouldn’t go the next night, the same night we just got back, but around lunch time they woke us up, and said, your aircraft is now suitable and we are raiding Nuremberg tonight, right, and you are required to go, so two or three of the crew, Bob Hollinrake, I think, and the skipper and the engineer, took the plane up and came back and said, its ok, and so we got briefed, and that evening at about quarter past nine, we set off again, right down England, right across Paris, right across, a bit further this time, this was an eight hour, before we got to the target, the same engine packed up again, and so we dropped a little behind the bomber stream because, I think we were in, it was in five waves from memory, and we were in two, so the fact that we were going slower than the rest meant that we were still with them like, just at the end, but we were probably [unclear] it wasn’t too long after that when we’d lost a bit of height because we’d had to come down a little bit past three because a fighter had frightened us, and partly because we were gaining a bit of speed et cetera by coming down. We lost another engine
AM: Same side or?
RT: No, no, one on each side
AM: Oh, okay
RT: And, okay, you can still fly, you can still fly a Halifax on two engines, but we decided we would go back to engine number one that had failed and see if we could get it going again, because it had overheated again, we got it going again, not too long we had the same problem again, and they dabbled with trying to make it three out of four but we never really had more than two. We gradually lost height and when we came back over Paris, we were all on our own of course, we’d now lost the, the other, the shelter of the others
AM: No, you weren’t in the stream anymore
RT: And, technically we were a bit too low, we were around nine and a half thousand feet, that is well in the range of guns, but not hit, and we got out over Dieppe
AM: Yeah
RT: Heading for Beachy Head, which was our right route home because the mines had been swept in order to make a ditching area, but we got hit by something [emphasis] in the wing, we believe it was a German warship, and I’ll tell you why later, but we, the plane couldn’t fly straight and whatever had happened to the wing, and the pilot decided that the only, and we’re still in cloud
AM: Was it still dark at this point?
RT: Oh yeah, it was four o’clock in the morning
AM: Oh right, sorry
RT: And it, yeah, and we’d been going since quarter past nine, it would have been a night out if we’d got back to Yorkshire. It was actually quarter past four when we actually hit the sea, but erm because of his problems with the controls and his decision is he’s not going to make the English coast, he’s got to get himself a good ditching chance, you’ve got to have enough control, to control it when it hits the water, though he did his best, as I say, we believed we had a very good pilot, he did his best, and we got six out I was, stayed with the pilot because I used to fly the second [unclear] and about six hundred feet we came out the cloud, and I said, cheerio to him, and took up my position which is lying on the floor with my feet on the bulkheads, and one of my jobs was to just jettison the two escape hatches, which I did, went down to join the others down there, and it was fairly soon after that, although I think he probably only had one engine going when he hit the sea, he wanted to make sure he got absolutely control over what it, it had to be good, not anything that could suddenly alter, and because we had the perspex nose and the sea was rough, and it was in rain, the nose broke when it hit a wave, in theory, he tried to put the tail in first and fall into the sea, that’s the theory of it, but the nose went so we were suddenly flooded because it, and of course it isn’t just sea water we’ve got, its fuel
AM: Fuel, yeah [coughs]
RT: And the dye that it, the yellow dye the Fluorescein, that they, so we were
AM: Hang on, the yellow dye of?
RT: It’s called Fluorescein, and when the plane hits the water it releases a yellow dye so you can see over
AM: Right, okay
RT: It distinguishes where the plane went in, I mean for some weeks after in Germany we were all yellow, but so, we then get up as quickly as we can, my job was to be first out as bomb aimer, other people have got other duties to do, Louis is supposed to be sending his message and to, I mean now he’s in his ditching position, he’s done all that, the navigator’s supposed to be bringing the charts with him and
AM: Packing his bag
RT: I think he had a big bag which was supposed to be locked on his arms, he claims he got a bang on the head and he didn’t get all his stuff, not able in time, but anyway, I’m at the dinghy, the plane is flat on the sea, I was able to get into the, onto the wing, took the dinghy over because it was inflating the wrong way up, push it into the sea, get into it, and then the others are coming one at a time, the pilot of course is still in his own bit, he’s got to find his way to us, but the dinghy isn’t inflating as it should
AM: I was going to ask you, so the dinghy, who lets the dinghy go or does it do that automatically?
RT: I never thought about it
AM: And its auto, should automatically inflate
RT: It is definitely inflating
AM: Okay
RT: When I first saw it upside down and then I turned it over it was inflating, its only when we got inside and the others started to pile in, and seven of you in one of those dinghies is a bit of a squeeze
AM: You still got your flying boots and everything on at this point?
RT: I’m sorry
AM: You still got your flying boots on at this time? [inaudible]
RT: Oh yeah, all in that, and it’s starting to, it’s trying to float below the surface and it’s starting to fold up like a
AM: Yeah
RT: Air is escaping, it’s only then that we realise that its full of holes, shrapnel, a small piece of shrapnel had gone through when we were hit on the wing, it’s gone through the folded up dinghy, now part of our drill is to find all the items we drop attached to the dinghy by cords, one of which is a knife, one of which is a pair of bellows, one is some food, one is a Very gun, there’s a whole set of things, the first thing we want is the knife, because of our position folded up in the water, not sitting on the water and because we’ve got holes, not only in the air bit, but also in the bottom, the pilot says, we must find the knife otherwise we are going down with the plane, we were attached to the plane, it’s a strong cord, ‘stand up one at a time, because there’s holes in the bottom, take your flying boots off, I don’t want anybody’, and I’m the first one standing up, my job really was to be first in everything. I stand up, first thing is my flying boots are over the side, nobody’s ever admitted to it but if you look in my little museum upstairs, you’ll see most of the crew in later years have sent me cards of flying boots
AM/RT: [laughter]
RT: Because eventually of course I arrive in Germany in bare feet, and I’ve had bare feet for a fair little bit of this nonsense. So, we can’t find the knife, the new air gunner a man we’d never quite got to know as well as the five man crew, Sandy Agnew, he produces a sheath knife from down his flying boot, a thing which we’d always been told, ‘don’t arrive in Germany armed even with a knife, because if you’re armed they could kill you,’ whereas in the Geneva convention they’re not supposed to, he cuts us free. Very shortly after that we see the aircraft slide away, that’s right, so now we start to find these cords and find these things, we find the bellows, we find the bag full of corks, they’re like old fashioned spinning tops, little wooden things with threads on them, different sizes, with different size holes
AM: So, they’re for plugging all the holes?
RT: So, we start plugging the holes, we haven’t got enough for all the things, so people by holes have got fingers in, and things like that, but we’ve got the bellows and we start pumping, we kept that thing going for seventeen hours until we were rescued off the French coast. By then we’d found a little bit of Horlicks tablets, we found a Very cartridge gun, and we were you know, we were sailors now, we were but we couldn’t guide the dinghy
AM: So, you drifted back to the French coast then?
RT: Yeah. We got paddles but it’s a round thing and there’s no way two people can paddle a round thing and it, you know, eventually we’re off the French coast, we know we’re off the French coast at nine o’clock in the evening, it’s like twenty four hours since we left home, and there’s a ridiculous [emphasis] debate going on, can we, can we paddle all the way round to Spain? Shall we risk trying to go up towards all the twenty one miles, or if we get into the North Sea we’ll get lost, you know, et cetera, et cetera. When we see a Spitfire coming, two Spitfires actually, coming back over the coast, we fire our Very cartridge and the one Spitfire comes down, puts his canopy back, starts to wave to us and we’re now getting quite excited, it’s only a matter of minutes until they drop a flying, er flying lifeboat to us or whatever, or a flying boat will come and pick us up
AM: Yeah
RT: But, we were so close to the French coast, we didn’t realise how close we were, because the waves were high enough to hide it from us down there, but the Germans had seen the Very cartridge, and so they start to flash Aldis lamps, ‘identify, identify, identify’
AM: They’re actually [coughs] on the coast or were they [inaudible]?
RT: No on the coast
AM: Oh, okay
RT: And, eventually we flashed back because we also had a lamp, ‘RAF, RAF’ and they came out in a fishing boat with soldiers, armed soldiers, we all had to lie down, because of, we realised that there was a fair bit of risk with that sinking dinghy and we hadn’t got food or whatever, I think we were pleased to be picked up, to be saved as it were, you know
AM: At least you hadn’t drowned
RT: We weren’t drowned, yeah, and a boat came and they took us to a place called La Trémouille [?] which to me until recently is an unknown place in France, we’ve been back there a couple of times et cetera, I’ve had a holiday there. This last week or so, there’s a, a new series, series started on BBC and it’s all based on La Trémouille [?] [laughs] it’s a beautiful little town with all sorts of intrigue going on, you know, but anyway, we’re taken to Abbeville airfield and handed over to the Luftwaffe
AM: Are you still in your soaking wet clothes at this point?
RT: Oh, we are soaking wet, we were put in a little hut just to ourselves, in our wet clothes, we got a blanket each, still in our wet clothes, they locked us in and they gave us a saucepan full of hot potatoes in their jackets which were quite pleasant, and then the following day, a group of people who we believe to be two crews of German bombers, a party just bigger than us, we were seven they were probably nine, maybe ten. We were put on a train, still in our wet clothes and taken off to Germany, the journey took four days
AM: With the, with the German bomber crew
RT: Oh yes, they were in charge
AM: Is that right, okay, yeah
RT: One of those men loaned me his spare pair of boots, which I wore until I got to the first prison camp
AM: Did they fit you?
RT: Yes
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: We, when we arrived in Frankfurt, still with our dinghy, carrying our folded up dinghy, we were paraded on the station and the crowd came and spat at us, [unclear] bombers and all this sort of thing, which we thought was a bit unusual, we’ve found out since, that it was probably normal
AM: Did they try and get at you or were they just?
RT: No, nobody hurt any of us, no, et cetera, then they, the same nine people, they took us from the station to a tram car, one of these door tram cars, one behind the other, they shunted some people out, put us on and they took us to Gestapo headquarters, and outside Gestapo headquarters, the proper name is Dulag Luft
AM: Yeah
RT: Its well known as Dulag Luft now. The German had his boots back, they were his boots, they weren’t mine they were his, the, we didn’t need to explain, exchange, because I had no German, he had no English, he took me things and we went into there, and of course once we got in there, for about a week, we were then separated, we were in solitary confinement, interviewed most days by some German, sometimes we were put back in a cell with another airman
AM: But not your own crew?
RT: Not our own crew, sometimes we were put back with a member of our own crew, but we’d been briefed about all this, it was well known, we just don’t talk to one, if you don’t say anything, you know, but this went on for a week
AM: Did they do the nice guy, bad guy?
RT: Oh, all of that
AM: Cigarettes, all that stuff
RT: The officer with his gun in, gun out, until you’re proved to be, ‘I can shoot you,’ it’s all within, and ‘I don’t accept you’re a prisoner yet’, ‘you are not answering but I want you to’, ‘we are only allowed to give you rank name and number,’ ‘where you went to school’ and so, and so, ‘you attended Mary Street primary school,’ they got all the details, you know, so it, ‘that’s true, that’s a lie’, ‘I could shoot you for telling a lie’
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: [inaudible] but anyway, it went on for about a week and then we were all bought together again
AM: Were you scared, were you frightened, how did you feel about it?
RT: I think, I think I’m a young lad of nineteen, I must be, but the only time I can recall being really scared was while we were waiting to hit the water, you know, saying prayers and whatever, whatever comes into your mind, that’s a completely unknown situation you just don’t know what’s going to happen and, but I’m sure I’ve had a number of scares from Germans and things of that, but none of it is that I can recall in any detail, I’m sure, I’m not claiming to be brave or anything like that, so I think I must have been, but it’s not foremost in my mind. So, ooh, we are then in this Dulag Luft, which is, we were released by the Gestapo and we go into what it’s like, a little prison camp next door, there are English people in charge and they may be collaborators, they may be genuine people working on behalf of newly caught prisoners, I don’t know, but I still haven’t got my boots, and as I enter the compound somebody gives me a tin of condensed milk, and as soon as I got it opened, I scoffed it and I was violently sick, [laughs] but I can remember that in great detail
AM: It’s too rich for your stomach
RT: Well, I mean we hadn’t eaten for some time, you know, and on that train for four days, we’d had a little bit of German sausage and a little bit of bread, once a day, you know, the same as the Germans were having, that’s what they were having, they also [emphasis] didn’t have a bed for four days, you know, they were just in a wooden seated carriage, the same as we were, et cetera, so, okay, you’ve [unclear] then, you’re put on a train, bus carts and I’m taken to No 1 prison camp
AM: Were you still with your other six crew?
RT: Oh, we’re all together
AM: You’re all together
RT: We’re all together
AM: Yeah
RT: And we’re all together for some, that camp was organised into what we’ll call sixes, the food was shared out and you had to be in a combine of six, and so six of the crew were in the combine and one wasn’t, it was the little gunner, the man with the knife, he was in another combine with a Scotsman that he, because he was another Scotsman, so anyway, that was that. That was a nice prison camp, it was organised, it took all the people shot down since the start of the war, were all there, and they’d got a theatre and they’d got football teams with names like Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur, and I’m told that that one or two ex-professionals who’d become aircrew were playing in the teams, I didn’t know the people, and that was a nice enough place, and then somewhere along the line I acquired a pair of American army boots from the stores, the prison camp stores, but then a few months later we were, because it’s now getting very crowded, there were so many English and American prisoners coming in, its nineteen forty three, it’s all happening now and we were put on a train and we were taken to Lithuania. Four days again, same situation, we went to a reasonable camp, just started
AM: That was Lithuania, can you remember where it was?
RT: It was a place called Heydekrug
AM: Alright
RT: In Lithuania
AM: Yep
RT: Erm, we stayed there until, I think we went there in about November, remember I’d been shot down, its, its early September I’m in a prison camp
AM: Yeah
RT: So, I was not there too long in the good camp, then we go off to this very cold place in Lithuania, erm and nice place as I say, large place, four compounds, Americans in one, English there, English there and probably others in that one, and whilst we were there, five crew air gunner, Jock Finney, met his brother in law through the wire, he was in one of the other compounds, he knew he was there, and he persuaded the Germans to allow him to transfer to be with his brother in law and he took the little scotch lad with him, they all went together, and that was it, end, we never saw them again. They survived the war but not [unclear] we were involved in. Now, in about July or just after the invasion in June, we were overrun by the Russian front
AM: So, we are in nineteen forty-four?
RT: They were nowhere near us, but we’re in Lithuania and the Russian front is cutting off that whole section of Latvia and East Prussia, it’s all being, and so the Germans evacuated us by sea from the port of Memel and bought us back in to Swinemünde, a four day trip down in the hull
AM: All of you? How many?
RT: Eight hundred, down, we were on one boat, eight hundred, that was our compound. We know that on the day before, we only know now, on the day before in another boat, the American compound had also made the same route, and when we arrived back in Swinemünde, we were bombed by the American airforce, so we were lying on the truck, cattle trucks and there was a German pocket battle ship firing at them
AM: Would they have had any way of knowing who was on the boat, they just wouldn’t would they?
RT: No, no, no. So, eventually we were on a train, cattle trucks again, another four-day trip, this time back into Poland, at a place called [unclear] now, when we get it, this is known as the run off the road, this is the, which you all, one you must surely have heard about, when we get off the boat, where a lot of us have been manacled, we’re not manacled down in there because we couldn’t climb up the ladder
AM: So, hands rather than feet
RT: Yeah. But once we got off, some were pairs, some were fours, manacled together, and then, I call them the Hitler Youth, it was like a naval brigade of young soldiers with dogs and bayonets, start to chase us through the woods
AM: Yeah
RT: Wanting us to run, now we’re manacled together, and according to one lad, and we’ve each got a little haversack on our backs, which is an old shirt sewed up to make, to carry any bits and pieces that we’ve acquired in our nine months of captivity or whatever, and so, that runs down to your manacle and your stuck. I managed to get my hand out of my manacle because I was quite thin in those days and I’ve avoided any injury, and I’ve run on, I’ve left my other lad, whoever he was, I don’t know the name of who I was manacled to, I don’t think he was one of our group at all, not one of our crew certainly, and so eventually we arrived back in what we believed to be the prison camp, we now know it was a five kilometre run from when they attacked us, and we do know that the worst lad had sixty something bayonet wounds in his backside, prodded, not stabbed, prodded
AM: What where, what were the German guards doing, just letting them do it?
RT: No, they were the ones that were doing it
AM: Right, okay, so they were the guards who the young lads, were the ones, yeah
RT: They were the guards. The documents now say that they wanted us to escape and that on the edge of the woods was machine guns, that’s what the big books now record, we never saw any of that. We stuck together, not because we wanted to stick together, we were just following one another. Now, when we got to this camp, it wasn’t a camp, it was the outside of a camp, there was, we had to go in with a, what you get at a wedding, with a, soldiers, a guard of honour with the soldiers
AM: Oh, yeah, yeah
RT: Who bit you, prodded you, made sure that nobody had got anything, even a toothbrush, and then for some days, we were in this camp, with no huts, sleeping at night on the floor, and outside was a great pile of all our gear. Eventually that got shared out amongst us, toothbrushes, whatever, anything, and it took a few weeks before huts were made
AM: What month are we in now, is it, are we still in winter?
RT: No, this was July
AM: So, we’ve moved back through, yeah, with everything
RT: It was just after the invasion
AM: Of course, in forty-four, yeah
RT: So, the weather is much better, although there was a very nasty thunderstorm where one of, because before we got proper huts we had what we called dog kennels, they were like little sheds about five foot tall, four foot six tall, about ten people could lie on the floor, so at night we’d get into those. One night there was a terrible thunderstorm, two of the huts got struck by lightning, two or three prisoners got killed by the lightning, that must all be documented
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Over a few more weeks, the Russian prisoners, they were like slaves, and they built a proper prison camp and we went into our compound and the facilities there were quite reasonable, a massive toilet block, seventy-two seat toilet block, and so on, and which the sludge of the toilets had to be moved everyday by the Russians
[unknown]: [background talking]
AM: [inaudible] yeah
RT: With their oxen carts, they used to suck it up with a little explosion that caused it to
AM: Okay we’re paused, hang on
RT: Have we stopped?
[unknown]: [inaudible] I just said
[unknown voices]
[unknown] Just a little nibble, its ready but we’re having it indoors
AM: Right
[unknown]: Not bringing it out here
AM: Oh, we’ll come in, can we come in when we’re done?
[unknown]: Do you want to finish all that and then come in?
AM: Yeah, can we?
[unknown]: Yeah okay, fair enough
AM: Alright, right then
[Unknown] [laughter] I hope you are not going into too much detail Ronald?
AM: No, you’re not its wonderful
[unknown] I’m sat here listening and
[unknown] [inaudible] [laughter]
AM: So, cut you off in your prime, off you go again
RT: Anyway, we were in [unclear] which becomes a very reasonable sort of camp, the main occupation, was the guards trying to count us, every day. Every day we’d be forced out of our, I mean at night time, the huts are all on legs, dogs are underneath them, to avoid escaping. You do your own cooking on a little bit of a stove in there with your ration of potatoes or your twenty eighth of a loaf every day, a slice of bread
AM: And if they’re on legs you can’t dig tunnels?
RT: Not easily, you, et cetera, et cetera, and so on, and then in the daytime, they would force us out while they searched the huts and then they would do a count, somebody would manage to sneak through there and spoil the count for them
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: This went on all the time. Is he a bomber? Oh no, he’s just a passenger thing, yes. Have you got him recorded?
AM: Yeah, be alright, as long as it doesn’t drop anything on us
RT: It isn’t too long now, and we coming to the end of January, this is now nineteen forty five
AM: Forty five
RT: And the Russian front comes again, and this time the same routine, but instead of the ship or the train, we just set off walking and it goes on from the sixth of February until I get liberated on about the sixteenth of April
AM: Okay, how did you get liberated?
RT: The British army. By then we’d walked back to [unclear] which is a big, nowadays well-known place, it was so crowded that our column were told they had to go back again, and our column did leave and went back the way they come, most of my crew went with them, but Dibben, the pilot and I, went into sick bay, lay on the floor and said we were too sick to move, and we just stayed there, two days later we were liberated by the British army. We knew the army was getting close because we could see the searchlights in the sky
AM: Who was it that sent the others back?
RT: Oh
AM: Germans or?
RT: Germans
AM: The Germans, right
RT: And, the people in charge of the camp, because the camp was run by Sergeant Major Lord who was a big disciplinarian who had been captured at Arnhem
AM: Right
RT: And whilst I was in [unclear] a British soldier took me into the town to show me the little village, first day out of the prison camp, [unclear] and who should I meet? But Ken Pugsley, the lad with flat feet, who’d been captured at Arnhem as a prisoner and was in the same prison camp. I met him in Germany [emphasis] [laughs]
AM: Five years later
RT: Absolutely. But, on the march, I developed frostbite, I just couldn’t walk [inaudible]
AM: In your feet?
RT: Yeah, I couldn’t keep a, shouldn’t, whether it was those army boots from
AM: Americans
RT: Americans, which were never going, the right size or whatever, but anyway, and so the Germans [unclear] took me on a work cart and with a soldier, put me on a train, took me to a Belgium workers camp, dropped me off, and for seven or eight days, I was fed by a little Belgium school master
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Until he died last year, he corresponded [inaudible words] and a Serbo-Croat prisoner operated on my foot with his penknife which eventually, to release the pus, to allow the thing to get out. They put me on a dressing, on about the seventh, eighth day, we’re now into March, the German soldier arrives back, takes me on the train, puts me back with my crew on the march in a snowstorm with a cardboard box on my foot which lasted about
AM: About a day?
RT: No, not quite
AM: [inaudible]
RT: And so on, and so then, there we are back on the march again until we eventually
AM: It’s a strange mentality isn’t it, that they’d come, dropped you off, get you fixed up, bring you back
RT: Yep
AM: And get you to exactly where you’d been
RT: Now, when I recorded this in my film, I said, that the Germans with their efficiency, took me back to wherever the column had got to, but I now know from looking at my other documents, that for eight days the column stayed in th same place
AM: Oh
RT: Because all the roads ahead, were full up with other prisoners
AM: Right
RT: And, population escaping from the Russians, and so there was nowhere for us, so we are stuck
AM: Between a rock and a hard place
RT: Between the few farms. We had a prisoner on a bicycle, he was known as Percy Caruthers, he was allowed, and he spoke good German, he was a pilot, he was allowed to ride ahead contacting farmers to see if they would put up some prisoners overnight in their barns, provide food or hot water, and because no farm could take eight hundred, he would probably find about five farms in an area, and he would issue a document to say you helped British prisoners of war, and which would stand them in good stead with whoever liberated them, okay and so on, because we’re talking now about Poles and Germans, and all sorts of people because of the war and whatever, and that was the way it was, you know, so eventually I’m liberated
AM: So, you meet the British?
RT: Meet the British and within a few days I’d been fumigated, flown back home and then I was put for two years in Cosford Hospital because of, I was very [unclear] I had no nutrition and I was suffering from dysentery, you know, couldn’t hold food or whatever
AM: Two weeks, so you were two years in, two years did you say?
RT: No, two weeks
AM: Two weeks, I thought you said two years?
RT: No. And I left there on the seventh of May and was home for VE Day, whereas the rest of the crew
AM: They’d had to go backwards
RT: Gone back. They weren’t liberated until after VE Day
AM: Right
RT: And so on, they were, so we arrived back home, erm, even the little ambulance that took me from the airfield down in Hertfordshire to Cosford, called my Mother’s house to let her see me in the back of the, it wasn’t an ambulance, it was sort of a little canvas thing, you know and so on, that was in the middle of the night, because
AM: Did she have advanced warning that you were going to turn up?
RT: No, no, they knocked at the door
AM: [gasps]
RT: And said, ‘we’ve got your son out here’, you know, that would be the first she knew that we’d been liberated and of course it was before the end of the war, and so. And then we, I stayed in the airforce for about a year, the airforce didn’t want me to leave until my future was ascertained. Now, you know about my background of mucking about, this, that and the other, whilst I’d been apprenticed to the carpenter, the bit I fancied was the drawing office, so I’d arranged to get a training course to the draughtsman, and until that training course came through, the airforce kept me on
AM: Right
RT: I was a warrant officer, I got a good salary, I had a nice little flat in Scarborough, I only had to stay in Scarborough long enough to find some prizes for the spa dance every Saturday, and once I’d got my spot prizes I could go home and come back the next week, so
AM: Were you on your own?
RT: Yeah, on my own, yes me on my own with a little flat in Scarborough
AM: Not booking in anywhere or?
RT: No, no, eventually they transferred me to the drawing office at RAF Wittering, but nobody in that drawing office seemed to want, so I used to turn up there on a Monday morning and then catch the first lorry along the main road back to Birmingham for the rest of the week, you know, because they didn’t want me and the airforce were trying to help me. Eventually, my training came, I did my nine months of training and then, for the first job I went to, I was well trained, first job I went to was a good firm, I stayed with them for thirty-three years
AM: Blimey
RT: Yeah, changing jobs all the way through, as a sort of promotion, a good job, that’s where I met Freda
AM: That’s where you met Freda
RT: She worked there, yeah, so we’ve been together not for fourteen years, but for sixty-one years
AM: Sixty something
RT: And so, yeah. Now, when I retired my story vanishes then, I have nothing to do, not true, I met Louis Ure in London nine years after the war, but apart from that, apart from sending Christmas cards to the crew, I had no contact with the crew until I retired, when I retired I went up into Yorkshire to a place called the Rocking Horse shop, because I’d planned to make a rocking horse for my oldest, I was still using my apprenticeship with carpentry
AM: Carpentry
RT: I had always been a bit, you know, and all these little side tables you see there, all of this is, and sheds, fences, all these fences and green house, all that’s is stuff I’ve made, and so, I go to the rocking horse shop and it’s in a place called Holme-on-Spalding-Moor
AM: Yes
RT: Which was twinned to Melbourne. So, I go into the local pub which is called the Bombers Arms which we used to use from Melbourne, and on the wall, was a chart showing that 10 Squadron had just had the 10 Squadron Association dinner, and my pilots name and the bomb aimers name were on there, so I contact the publican and he said, there’s a man at Elvington air museum
[unknown background talking]
RT: Who does Tuesdays and Thursdays, whatever, he’ll be on tomorrow, the secretary to this association. So, I stayed the night in the pub with Freda, I’ve got me bits for my rocking horse, and I go to Elvington, the man on the door says, by the time you get back to Birmingham
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Your crew will be in touch with you, and they was
AM: And they were
RT: And the first reunion was within three weeks, it was at the Prisoners of War Association called Creaky Corps at, who were the people who were in that boat down the Baltic
AM: Yeah
RT: And that became Creaky Corps, Percy Caruthers, the man with the bike, was the chairman, and so, they had, they had a reunion every year, as did 10 Squadron, so within three weeks, we were meeting up in Wellingborough, and we went to Sywell where Percy Caruthers had been trained as a pilot, we always went back there, to the Aviator, a big hotel, and for twenty years we went to those things and when Percy Caruthers was feeling, he’s going to pack up soon, I became the vice chairman because nobody else would take it on, and shortly afterwards, Percy died, and so we went to our first meeting, and the first job I did was to say, I’m not the right bloke to be this thing, I want somebody who really wants to be it, we found another bloke, he came the chairman and he continued, and it went on, you know, he did well, he did well, it didn’t last too many years because the people were dying off, and so, and because 10 Squadron kept going
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: And, Freda and I went to 10 Squadron’s hundredth anniversary this year, we won’t go again [unclear and inaudible words]
AM: How many of the original [inaudible] war veterans were there?
RT: There were one or two including, including ground crew
AM: Right
RT: But nobody that we knew, not one of the people that we used to see year in and year out, and so on, because 10 Squadron is still flying and because they’re still flying, they’ve still got old boys who were youngsters compared to us
AM: Yeah, they were old boys but not as old as you
RT: And, some of their sons and daughters are now, you know, they had to ballot to see who could go
AM: Right
RT: Freda and I, and the pilot’s widow wanted to go and we all got tickets, and we went and stayed in Burford, we did, all the years we used to go there, we used to stay in a pub in a little village called Broadwell, which had five bedrooms, and there were five of us with our ladies
AM: Brilliant
RT: And, for years, and then this publican retired himself, and the people buying it didn’t keep it open as a pub, they shut it down for two years then opened it up as a Swiss restaurant and it failed, so it’s probably derelict now, the house, we are still in touch with the publican who lives down in Devon, you know, et cetera. But that is the story
AM: Okay
RT: As far as the war goes, you know
AM: Wonderful
RT: But the, as I say, the big story is the twenty years that we met after retirement
AM: And enjoyed
RT: Twice a year
AM: Looked back and
RT: And we always went to the reunions and we always stayed another couple of days and we, ah
AM: [Laughs]
RT: And it’s amazing that the things that they, the pilot Dibben and the navigator, the navigator eventually became a publican
AM: Right
RT: And his pub was ever so close to Dibben’s house, so every Friday night, Dibben and the publican told all their audience, related the war
AM: Open the hangar doors [inaudible]
RT: And when Louis and Bob and I joined them, we had to correct all their stories
[laughter]
RT: Yeah
AM: That was wonderful, that was wonderful, I’m going to switch off
RT: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Tomlin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATomlinR150818, PTomlinR1503
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Tomlin grew up in Birmingham and was an apprentice carpenter before working in a munitions factory. He volunteered for the Air Force at 18, and after training, flew operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron. His aircraft was forced to ditch in the English Channel and he became a prisoner of war. He discusses the conditions he endured before he was liberated. He became a draughtsman after the war and attended 10 Squadron reunions after his retirement.
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Lithuania
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
Lithuania--Šilutė
Format
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01:08:31 audio recording
10 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
ditching
Dulag Luft
Halifax
prisoner of war
RAF Melbourne
sanitation
shot down
Stalag Luft 6
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/652/8923/PWadeR1503.2.jpg
0b506137cd4da312b391a18185ae0198
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/652/8923/AWadeR150726.1.mp3
95701c1624fa69e8a17fb1a5fdcce23c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wade, Ron
R Wade
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wade
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Ron Wade (b. 1917, Royal Air Force) and three photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 58 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay, so this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Ron Wade, and the interview is taking place at Mr Wade’s home in, near Cheltenham at Bishops Cleve on the 26th July 2015. So, Ron, if you just may be start off with just a little bit about your background, about your school days and what your parents did? Off you go.
RW: All right now, it’s switched off
AM: [Laughs]. Okay, so off you go Ron.
RW: Right. What do you want first?
AM: Well just tell me a little bit about your, what your parents did, and school days, where you were born, just a little bit of background about you.
RW: Yes, right, I was, you’ve got the date I was born.
AM: I have.
RW: And um, my parents, I was one of four children, I had two sisters and a brother. Unfortunately my brother was killed during the war, not on operations, but he, after I was shot down, he was working for the gas company and he would have been, um, he needn’t have joined, let’s put it that way, but er, because I was missing believed killed for six months and he said, ‘they’ve got Ron, I’m going to take his place’, and he joined the RAF. He was coming home on his birthday, 1943, on a motorcycle, and I was the motorcyclist in the family and taking risks a place, he hit a lorry and was killed outright, and so my parents had a rough time because I was, they thought I was, I was injured they didn’t know how badly and so um, they had a rough time.
AM: They must have done, yeah. What did your parents do Ron?
RW: My father was, they had a grocery shop at the time, but before the war my father was a Master Grocer and he was made redundant by the person he worked for it as a, I was born. Let’s start off where I was born. I was born in Stoke-on-Trent and Longton was the name of the one of the six towns, not five towns, they forgot Fenton, and so, um my, that was my father, he was a Master Grocer and those days, when he was younger, to be a Master Grocer was quite a trade. And so um, he, my mother worked in the Potteries in Longton where most of the china was produced and Ainsley and all the top china work, and she was a Paintress, a freehand Paintress, and er, the, also my sister, one of my sisters was also a paint, a freehand Paintress on pottery.
AM: Where did you go to school?
RW: I went to school at Woodhouse, it was called Woodhouse and er, an Elementary School. I wasn’t very good [laughs] at maths but I enjoyed school, but when came the age of fourteen, in those days you had to pay to go to Grammar School. We couldn’t afford that, so at the age of fourteen I was kicked out and I left, and so um, I wandered around trying to get a job. If you think, this was in the thirties and a lot of unemployment and so I was told to go and get a job. So I got a job in a factory at Longton and it was a bit rough because I had to, as a warehouse boy, I was paid five shillings a week and one of my jobs was to scrub the floors, light a fire under a heater in the factory so they could bring their food and put it on the top to heat it up for lunch. If I was late getting all that done, I was in dead trouble [laughs], but scrubbing the floors, it was so the one floor from downstairs, the ovens, we had two big ovens, one gloss and one biscuit, that we called biscuit ovens, [coughs] and then after a while the former warehouse boy he er, he worked in the moulding, he became a moulder in the moulding shop, and he said, ‘have they got on to you yet about moving from here?’ and at that time, I was scrubbing the floors with a scrubbing brush, cold water, down the steps, all wood, wooden steps, cleaning the steps going down there [laughs]. And so and er, then the crunch came when they said ‘right, pack it in, you go downstairs and help unloading from the ovens’ and what happened, it was, they’d be firing and then they used to open up after the firing, take all the bricks away from the entrance and then for twelve hours it would be cooling off. And then they got me with the others, the people unloading right from the top of the ladders and they brought it down and it was still very, very hot ware and then they got me with the others, carrying ware like dinner plates, [laughs], carrying from the oven. Up the stairs, two flights of stairs, along the corridor, which I had to clean [laughs] and into the warehouse, where the women were and they unloaded from the baskets. And one day, I was going up with a basket full of cups and saucers, and I used to carry them on my shoulder, basket on my shoulder and one hand on my hip, going up the same flight of stairs and I caught a water pipe that was sticking out from the stairs, just caught the basket and I had a choice. Shall I go down with the basket [laughs] or try and retrieve what I could, but I decided to let the basket go [laughs] and save myself.
AM: Save yourself.
RW: And there the ugly manager, who was one of the bosses sons stood at the bottom, with his hands on his hips and he saw, he saw all the ware down there, all smashed, and he said, ‘I’ll stop that out of your wages’ [laughs].
AM: And did they?
RW: No, no, they’d have been forever [laughs].
AM: I was going to say wages probably wouldn’t have been enough, would they?
RW: No [laughs] so that was that.
AM: So that was your introduction to work.
RW: My introduction to work.
AM: What about the RAF, how did you come to join the RAF?
RW: The RAF yes - what happened there?
AM: What made you want to join?
RW: From there, I went, I had several other jobs you know, trying to make a living in the 1930’s, wasn’t easy, and I walked around for miles getting jobs for five shillings a week. And then I was always interested in the RAF and I wanted to fly and so I went to join up when the war started and er, they said, ‘no, no’. I said ‘I want to be a pilot’, because my uncle had been a pilot and been killed, and um, but I always, right from a tiny child, wanted to fly, I wanted to be a pilot, and so they said ‘no, we have enough pilots’, and um, my maths wouldn’t have been good enough anyway.
AM: This was right at the beginning of the war, 1939?
RW: Oh yes, the beginning of the war, when the war started.
AM: So you would be twenty two?
RW: Twenty two, that’s right and I had been married. I made the mistake of getting married, and er, anyway I had a daughter by that marriage and she is now ninety seven, eighty seven, sorry, and amazingly enough, she visits me, she stills lives near Stoke-on-Trent.
AM: Yes, excellent.
RW: And she comes now and then to visit. I, then, that’s right, oh they said, ‘if you want to go into aircrew, if you want to fly, we can offer you the um’, what shall I say, oh yes, ‘offer you the way you can get into aircrew and you can be the wireless operator, and then from wireless operator, you would be an air gunner. That’s the only thing we can offer you if you want to fly’, and so this is what happened. I joined up, I was called up and I offered my services then, and I was called up in January 1940 and I did my ITW in Morecambe, sent to Morecambe, and that was quite an experience, because we all walked down the street in Morecambe and they said, ‘you eight in that house, you eight in the next house’, and so this went on and as we were allocated this one house and the dear lady, who was the boss of the house, she was coming downstairs and we were just coming into the house, into the hall and she said, ‘I didn’t want you here, I’ve had enough with guests through the summer’, [laughs] and so that was our introduction to this place. She wouldn’t let us use the lounge, we had a little room at the back and then they had a kitchen, where we were allowed in, but not the lounge [laughs], and I wasn’t very popular with her because I didn’t like her attitude, and she said we had to be in at ten o’clock at night and so one of us used to stay around, say like if we went to a dance, you see, and so this is what we did and er, we made it enjoyable. I think the pranks we got up to such as I cut out a skull and crossbones and put it in the light that it shone, the light shone through the skull and crossbones [laughs]. They had um, a, a bit of a showcase in there and I saw er, a cup in there, I thought, the old man, poor devil, he was really under the thumb with the old girl, and I saw a cup in there, an inscribed cup and I thought, marvellous, he must have been a runner or something like that, and so when I examined the cup, fortunately the door wasn’t locked on the showcase, and I was disgusted to see that it was for mineral waters [laughs]. The cup was given for being very good with his mineral waters, and so what happened there was, I filled it with cold tea [laughs]and I wasn’t very popular at all.
AM: No.
RW: We were allowed to go upstairs to our rooms, she complained about, about the rifles, we all had our the Enfield rifles.
AM: Because you were square bashing?
RW: That’s right, yes, up and down the streets, and so um, she complained because we put our rifles in the umbrella stand in the hall, so she said, ‘no, they must go upstairs and under your beds’, so fair enough, this is what we did. But at ten o’clock in the mornings, we had to get up early, but at ten o’clock we had a tea break and so we all, the whistle went and we all had to fall outside in the street and er, the old boy had to make the tea, you see. By the time he’d made the tea for the eight of us, the whistle went again [laughs] so we had to form up outside again, and er, also the rifles had to keep going upstairs under the beds [laughs], so by the time we had done all these things, then we were going to be late on parade so that’s fair enough we managed it.
AM: Oh good.
RW: Yes, and then we were eventually, we were called by the CO, we had to go, we were called into the CO’s Office in Morecambe and – left, right, left ,right, halt - and er, we stood, the eight of us there, and we stood in front of the CO, and he had his bits of paper on his desk and he said ‘which one of you is Wade?’, so - left, right, left, right, halt - ‘Right, I’ve had complaints from your landlady’, and er, he read out all these different things that I had done in the house. And then I tried to explain, I said ‘I’m guilty of what she said, but it’s very difficult to go up and down the stairs in our boots and not make a noise’, that was one thing that she went on about, and the other thing was that she had to take up the stair carpet and so we were making more noise going up and down the stairs and this went on for a while, but the CO, ‘well, you won’t be here for very much longer’, which we weren’t fortunately, but next door they had a marvellous time, the eight in there, and they were allowed into the lounge and they had a piano, and the pianist there, I’m trying to think of his name - Ronnie, Ronnie, but he played at the BBC and er, his friend ran the Squadronaires.
AM: Right.
RW: I forget his name now, they were a nice couple of guys, and they also were able to fraternise with the two daughters [laughs] so they were unhappy to leave Morecambe [laughs]. Anyway we went from Morecambe up to um, to do the wireless course, wireless operators and er, so as I say I joined in January and when I went to Swanton Morley, no, not Swanton Morley, I’m trying to think of the name of the place we went to now.
AM: No, never mind
RW: It’ll come, and um, that’s right, and so I started a course there as a wireless operator and er, I did quite a few months there, doing Morse. Very difficult, very difficult and I was very happy to leave there [laughs].
AM: Did you pass?
RW: I passed, yes, we had to, and from there I was interviewed, now I was hoping they were putting me onto a pilots course [coughs] and I was interviewed by a group, and they were ex pilots from the First World War and um, as I sat there they were asking questions, ‘why did I want to fly?’ and I said ‘I’ve always wanted to fly since, I, since being very small’ and so er, I thought I am going to get my course as a pilot. But the one question one of these old boys threw at me was, ‘what would your feelings or attitude be, if you fired at a German and you saw his face disintegrate due to your bullets?’ I said ‘bloody good show, that’s what I joined for’ and so [laughs], and they all looked at me, you know, ‘who’s this crazy guy we’ve got here’ [laughs] and so that went on, and I thought, oh no, they’re going to put me on a pilots course. ‘No’, they said, ‘no, you will be an air gunner’. So I went down to South Wales and did an air gunner’s course there and this is just about the end of the Battle of Britain, and er, we were being bombed and shot up every day and night there, and er, and I was chased down the runway one day by a Junkers 88 and I managed [laughs], the bullets were going all around me and I got behind a sand bin and they came through the sand, the bullets from this 88 and then the hut, the hut we were in the, the normal RAF Huts.
AM: Nissen Huts.
RW: Yes, that’s right, all wood, and er, one day they bombed and destroyed the one each side of ours then we had to lie down flat as they strafed us, the bullet holes through the hut, through the wood.
AM: And this was at training camp in South Wales?
RW: In South Wales, yes, day and night. We weren’t allowed, as air crew, we weren’t allowed to sleep in the huts so we had to go out in the field and within tents and sleep outside, and there again, I was a bit crazy and I slept behind the beds. I put my mattress down there and then I thought ‘what’s it going to be?’ and my DRO’s, one of our men, was killed because he didn’t get in the tents, so I was turfed out of there and I had to go into a tent and er, that was the end of the Battle of Britain.
AM: Of the Battle of Britain.
RW: Yes.
AM: What was the training like Ron, the air gunner training?
RW: Oh it was intense, very intense and we had, had er, we had the um, Fairey Battles, Whitley’s 1’s and 3’s which were, they were pretty awful things this is why they had, and the Whitley 5’s we finished up on, they were also rubbish, [laughs] sorry to say. And um, as I said training had to be intense because we were the only ones carrying the war to the Germans, Bomber Command, and so from there other things happened you know, I was lucky to get away with we were, because they were bombing night and day.
AM: Because of the bombing?
RW: And so er, from there I went to OTU at Abingdon.
AM: Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
RW: That’s right, Abingdon, and er, that was very intense. We had very few hours off and because we were needed, and so from there a very good friend of mine, he was a pilot doing his training too and we were formed up into fives.
AM: So it was five, there were five of you in your group?
RW: Five in a group.
AM: This was for a Whitley?
RW: Whitley 5, yes, and er, Mac was his name, MacGregor Cheers and I’ve got it in my book, and he didn’t want to be a pilot, he wasn’t happy training as a pilot, poor Mac. There was me, I wanted to be a pilot and he would have rather, rather been an air gunner but it didn’t work out that way.
AM: How did you get together as a crew?
RW: Oh there we er, we had, later on when we got to the squadron, I moved on to 58 Squadron er, from training and um, this, our CO there, he said ‘I’ve been having too many complaints from you, from all air crew about the Whitley’, and we said ‘we’d rather be on the Wimpeys’, you know the Wimpey?
AM: I don’t know the Wimpey.
RW: Yes, the Wimpey was the one, I’m trying to think of it now, the Wimpey. We were on the Whitleys, I was flying on the Whitleys, this was the, this will probably tell you in the book there [looks through the book].
AM: I can’t find it, never mind it doesn’t matter.
RW: Anyway, we’ll find it yes. It’s my age [laughs].
AM: You’re allowed [laughs].
RW: And so we said we’d rather be on different aircraft, we didn’t like Whitleys, and he said, ‘anymore complaints and you’ll be off flying, you’ll be grounded’, he said ‘you fly in this and it’s a very good aircraft and you have to fly it’.
AM: Where was 58 Squadron based then, at that point?
RW: We were at Linton on Ouse.
AM: Okay.
RW: And that is where we had to form up and choose the crew, choose the fives, and er, it was very good, very good. And, oh yes, when I arrived there, our flight commander came through the hangar, I came from one door and he came through the other door, flight lieutenant, and um, he said ‘my god, we are glad to see you’, he said, ‘we had a rough night on Berlin last night and we had one aircraft left in our flight’. So he said, ‘come and meet the lads’, so off I went in the crew room and er, I met the lads and er, he said ‘right, this is Ron, Ron Wade, and er, he wants a cup of coffee. What do you want, tea or coffee? Who’s on making coffee?’, ‘Oh, I did it yesterday’, ‘now make him a cuppa, whatever he wants’, so I met the lads that way. But er, how we formed up in a crew we went into flying control and into the room there and all milling around meeting each other, formally or informally and this is where we formed up, and er, I was very lucky guy. I had a lucky war really because my original crew, I was taken off, we did two trips, two trips, I forget where it was now, but they said, ‘right that’s me softened up so you are being replaced by this Graham (I think his name was), Graham, because he ditched in the sea and he has been on leave for a couple of months, but he will be taking your place’, then last heard of, they came down in the sea, so this Graham had two trips, two operations both into the sea and the second time they weren’t recovered, so I was very lucky there, but I said to Amy, ‘how must his parents have felt?’
AM: Yes
RW: Because I think of him now, taking my place I had through good luck and he had the bad luck. My folks had the bad luck with my brother being killed and me being [unclear] after six months they thought I’d been killed.
AM: So just wheeling back a bit.
RW: Yes.
AM: So you didn’t, you were taken off that crew and then, presumably, put with another crew?
RW: Yes
AM: And did some more operations?
RW: Yes, with another crew, and then I was waiting to get on another crew and er, it was rather boring because I was sweeping, I was cleaning the snooker table and I got very good at snooker, and I was waiting and then I had several attempts to go on ops but something happened every time. And then on a Whitley 5, they um, they had a lot of what you call exacter trouble. If they snatched too hard then it would go fully fine and we would have to turn back and so er, this happened, different things happened and I didn’t get, because I had, I just, oh yes, what happened, from the trip before, it had been a bit hairy, got a few holes in it and er, I had a premonition from that, that as we were coming into land, I saw the runway and I thought I won’t see this again, I’m going to be killed. Strange feeling, it was a very, very, it, it and I knew I was going to be killed, strangely enough and I wanted to get this trip over, the next trip over, all my crew who were going to be my crew were on leave and I should have waited to come back but this is on January, January 8th I think, I think it’s in there, the book. Oh yes, my roommate, I won’t mention his name, but he came back from leave and he said that he was tired, he knew what the trip was going to be, it was a tough one, Konigsburg, and er, the CO said, ‘there are two fighter areas’, so he said, ‘keep North and be very wary because of the fighters’, and I knew that it was going to be tough because of so many things going on there. And so er, I volunteered for this, and he said that he was tired so the sawbones gave him a pill and told him to go to bed, so I volunteered, do you want to go to bed because always a thing come back, leave, he had a tough one, crew didn’t make it, we were losing so many in those days. And so off with his name, on with mine, just the [unclear] they wanted and er, I thought, I’m going to get it over with, and so off we went and this is when we were in Holland, North Holland, and then we had, they hit the port engine and we set on fire.
AM: Where? On the way to drop your bombs?
RW: Yes.
AM: On the way there.
RW: On the way there, yes, and er, we thought we were going to come down in the North Sea, we were going over the North Sea at the time, and January you didn’t live very long in the North Sea, and so we thought, that’s it, and all the rest of the crew were aged nineteen and I was the oldest.
AM: You were an old boy, twenty three?
RW: Twenty three, yes, and so um, the navigator said, ‘I don’t think we’ll make it, we are not going to make Holland’ and so the skipper said, ‘right I don’t know what you are going to do, but it’s no use coming down, we’ll have to go down into the sea and about five minutes that will be it because Whitley’s didn’t swim very well’ [laughs]. And so I was in the, I was flying as a rear gunner at the time, operating as a rear gunner, and by the way before that I had done a trip from um, the, when I was at OUT, I’d been, I was on a crew, going, dropping leaflets over Italy. We had a trip to Turin and it’s in the book there and dropping leaflets and we were attacked by two fighters and I told the pilot to do this um, manoeuvre to get away from them and um, then when we came up again, they fired at us and then I had the new Brownings, four of them, and they really did damage because I fired at them and then they turned and smoke poured from both of them and they retreated and went back. I didn’t know if they went down or not but they weren’t happy, and so that was an earlier.
AM: So that was Italy,
RW: And I was going to tell you.
AM: So now, now you’re on your way to Holland?
RW: That’s right on operations, I’d gone from there and I had a photograph taken by picture post in the turret, in the rear turret, showing off these new Brownings , and er, yes, so back to the squadron, on our way to Wilhelmshaven and then we were hit and I thought that’s it, this is my premonition coming because fire broke out and it was getting close, my job to get, we were given the order to bail out although if we wanted to over the sea, but by this time the navigator had informed us that we could make it, we just made it, North Holland, so we had been told to bail out. I had to get out of the rear turret somehow, we’d been losing height at quite a pace, so when I got out of the rear turret, because my parachute was in the fuselage, and so I had to open the rear doors of my turret, crawl out, then the order was to get my parachute and harness, ‘cos there’s no room in the turret for them, so my training was that I got these and then I had to get back into the turret with great difficultly, close the doors, turn ninety degrees and then go out backwards.
AM: Right
RW: But fortunately for me, as I was getting my parachute and harness and I put them on, the first wireless op came down the fuselage and he jettisoned the door, waved to me and the sparks and flames coming past the fuselage door, and he waved and jumped through this. Now I’m not getting back in that turret, I’ll never make it and so I was going after him and so I made for the door and, what happened next then, and, oh yes, I was about to jump and then out of the corner of my eye I saw the navigator coming down dragging his parachute and harness. He hadn’t put it on.
AM. Oh no.
RW: And so I couldn’t leave him, the plane was slipping like this – slipping, slipping, slipping - we lost a lot of altitude and we were getting pretty close, and so he couldn’t do anything because he was almost falling over every time the plane went. What had happened, the two pilots had gone from the door, from the front.
AM: So they’d bailed out?
RW: They’d bailed out, because he’d given orders for us to bail out by then, and as I say don’t forget that all the rest of the crew were nineteen, they very young. And so he went, that’s right, so I went back and zipped him up and then pushed him out, hoping that he’s there [laughs], then I went after him. Then I don’t remember anything else, apart from it had been snowing through the night, it was a very, very bad night and um, it was about eight o’clock and then I came down in this field and er, the place is called Anna Paulowna, a little hamlet, and the next morning um, a man going to work on the farm and er, he just saw me and I was covered in snow, and it had been deep snow through the night, and he found I was still ticking.
AM: So you were unconscious?
RW: I was unconscious because, what had happened, the Dutch people told me afterwards, that I had gone towards the plane, so we must have been pretty low when I bailed out. I was the last one out, and so that’s why I don’t remember anything, they said that they called to me to come away ‘cos I was making for the plane, so it wasn’t very far away, but as, what I remember when I bailed out, that I was hoping that the parachute would open [laughs].
AM: Quickly.
RW: Quickly, and the um, I wasn’t scared, strangely enough, I just wasn’t scared, and the only thing I could think of, I missed my bacon and eggs, because the only time we had bacon and eggs was when we came back from an operation, then I was calling swear words to the others ‘lucky bastards’ [laughs].
AM: No bacon and eggs.
RW: [Laughs] You’ll be having my bacon and eggs and that’s all I could think off [laughs]. I’d been looking forward to that, and then they called me to come away from the aircraft and so what had happened then, as the ammunition had been exploding, then I stopped one in the back of the head and so I’d been treated in hospital there and um -
AM: So the Dutch people found you?
RW: Yes
AM: And took you to hospital?
RW: No, oh no.
AM: Oh right.
RW: They called the Germans, because if they’d been found, they took me into the hamlet where they lived and then they called the Germans because if the Germans had come and found me first, we’d have all been shot. So the Germans took me away and then they took me into hospital because I’d stopped the bullet in the back of the head, the doctor said I was very fortunate because if it had been any deeper I would have been killed, which was my premonition. And if it had been over a little, I would have been blind and so what happened, I lost, I found out later, I lost the least of the senses that was smell and taste and I’ve never been able to smell and taste since. I can taste, I was tested for it when I came back home and I can taste sugar, salt, vinegar.
AM: So things that have a strong taste.
RW: That’s right yes, that’s all I can taste, so that was it.
AM: So you are in the hospital, you’ve been treated?
RW: Oh yes, I’d been treated.
AM: Then what happened?
RW: What had happened, I had an enema, do they call it? It was a hell of a mess [laughs] and then I was in this ward and er, I was, I remember being in this bed and looking up and there’s a fellow waving to me across the ward, and I thought, ‘who the hells that. I don’t know him’, and this went on for a whole day when he was waving and that was the navigator.
AM: Right
RW: And I didn’t recognise him and this went on and after a while it came, my memory came back again.
AM: So that’s two of you in the hospital?
RW: That was in the hospital. Oh yes and um, when I got talking to the navigator again, he said, ‘careful’, because I was well known for my dirty jokes at times [laughs], anyway different thing he said, ‘be very careful what you say because that one there, is a Nazi’. The only time they listened to the radio was when Hitler was making a speech so he said, ‘very, very careful what you say’. He used to go to the cupboard there, get this radio out, switch it on when Hitler finished speaking, disconnect, back in there, so he said, ‘be very careful’ [laughs], and from there I went in an ambulance, that’s right. They took me to an old camp, the French, French and Belgians in there and um, I’d asked one Frenchman there, he spoke English, if he could get me some information because we were right next to an airfield and they were working on the airfield, and I said, ‘can you get me an old coat to wear and er, then I can make my way with you to this airfield’. Somehow I was going to, although I was a wireless op, I knew the controls and I was going to try and steal a plane and get back home.
AM: This is in the first camp after the hospital?
RW: In the first camp, yes, and er, it was a rough old camp. I remember the blanket I had was 1917, and er, it was rough, and er, and I’ll never forget having, oh yes, they said, ‘can’t you taste that?’ I said, ‘why it’s all right’. I was eating this stuff, sauerkraut [laughs], rough sauerkraut, they were dished up with, I said, ‘no’ [laughs]. Anyway just after that, next day, two great big Nazi’s came in, ‘wait’, so this Frenchman must have, must have told them what I was up to because they took me and after seeing films of people being taken for a ride, I went in this Opel I think, I think the car was an Opel, it was an Opel, and the one as big as Gary. I had one each side of me, I was down middle of them, and off we went and er, I was taken down to the station, down near the station, into the large, like a town hall - left, right, left, right - up in front [laughs], not so nicer man, this CO, and he said, ‘right, this and that’ [unclear] it was a big desk, I’ll never forget and he said, ‘this man here has had his orders, and he is going to take you on the train to Frankfurt and he’s been warned and told that if you try to escape, or do anything, he will shoot you dead’.
AM: He spoke to you in English?
RW: Oh yes, oh yes in English, and so um, I was, people were trying to attack me on the way up, up to this town hall.
AM: Civilians?
RW: And one man came with a knife and the guard had to fend him off and others because they’d had an air raid there, you see, and so off I went, and went up to this town hall and that’s when he had his orders, anyway I was taken back down to the railway station.
AM: What town was this Ron?
RW: This was in Cologne.
AM: You were in Cologne by then.
RW: Yes, and I was driven right the way down there, and so I thought, oh yes. When I was in the waiting room and other er, Germans were in there, you see, drinking coffee, suppose that’s coffee and things like that, nothing was offered to me [laughs] and so then I said oh, ‘stand up’, and the door opened, as this door opened a major (unclear) he came in.
AM: An English, a German?
RW: No a German, a German major, he came in and they all gave the Nazi salute, ‘Heil Hitler, Heil Hitler’, yes, I came out I said, ‘Heil Churchill’, oh, he was just turning to go and I said this, and he got his gun out his Mauser, his Mauser or whatever it was, and I thought, well you’ve done it this time [laughs], and then he said ‘English schweinhund’ (unclear) off he went. I got away with that one [laughs], especially as I had just had this
AM: The warning?
RW: Warning yes, and um, and that was that and so when the train came, we went up to Frankfurt and um, he was watching me like a hawk.
AM: Were you handcuffed to him or anything?
RW: No, no.
AM: There was nowhere to run to though is there?
RW: No, but all the way I was wondering how I was going to belt him and looking at the window, how strong is it because I was going to smash it with his rifle, you see.
AM: Right.
RW: And it was quite a journey, beautiful trip from Cologne, up to Frankfurt but that’s in my mind all the time, how am I going to get out of here and get rid of him [laughs], and then the chance didn’t come, didn’t come. His eyes were on me every step of the way, he was scared he would have been shot if I had escaped, and so we went to my first real prison camp that was up to the um, what they called, it wasn’t a Stalag, before the Stalag.
AM: Was it a Dulag, Ron?
RW: A Dulag, and once again this officer, German officer came in and I was in the cell there, and one very high window, and er, oh he said, ‘I speak English very well, I was educated in Oxford’, and er, he said, ‘you will find we will treat you very well now, but er, a few things to add’, and er, he said, ‘this form here’, he’d got a form with a red cross on the top, ‘so all you need do is answer a few questions, so there you are’, and he said, ‘first of all, do you smoke?’, and I smoked in those days, so he got a packet of Capstans and a box of Swans.
AM: Vesta.
RW: Vesta matches, put them on the top there and there I was, smoking away, ‘right then, first things, name, rank, number’, that’s all right, name, rank, and number, and so put those in, he said, ’good, then we will let your parents know or what have you, that you are alive and well and injured’, and so um, that’s all right. ‘Now these other things’, and I looked on this form, ‘what squadron, your CO, what was his name, and the airfield you took off from, what was the aircraft you were flying, note it down here’. ‘There we are and that’s all I can give you, name, rank and number’. He said, ‘surely you want your people to know, you want your parents to know you’re alive?’, ‘yes course I do and that’s what you have to do because that’s all I’m giving you, my name, rank and number’. Then he became a German, and he went red and he did a lot of words came out that weren’t English and he said, ‘then you’ll stay here until you do fill that in’, and [laughs], and he grabbed the matches and cigarettes and put them in his pocket, and so I was fortunate in as much as I had to be taken up to the hospital to get my bullet hole seen to [laughs] and so I got away with that. Next cell he, whoever it was, had had a rough time, I heard him groaning and yelling and I think they beat him up because he wouldn’t answer and I refused too. The next morning they had taken my uniform away through the night, they’d taken it, I had to strip it off and they took it all away. The next morning, I saw they knew where the map was in the shoulder, then they’d taken the button off.
AM: So all the stuff that was to help you to escape?
RW: That’s right, they knew where it was, they’d taken it and the needle, the compass needle had gone out of the button [laughs] so then you weren’t full of tricks, and so that was Dulag, and from there, I was taken, I went to, yes, Stalag Luft 1, yes, I was taken there next.
AM: Were you still being taken on your own or were you with other prisoners by then?
RW: No I went in, the other prisoners I met there in Dulag and um, you know it was great to meet them and speak English, it was great and they’d give tips and that. I went to Stalag Luft 1 and um, then we stood at the gate welcoming the boys coming in and it was a sandy soil and we got them to throw the lighters and things in there, because the guards were trying to keep us back, you see, and as we went towards the gate, we did this at every camp we went to, throw your things in, throw them in, throw them in, because they had been stripped of things mostly and so what they did, pick them up and give them back to him and then, and then when we couldn’t get down to things, we just trod them in.
AM: Trod them into the ground?
RW: Into the ground as they forced us back, because them bleeders were very sharp [laughs].
AM: So you could go back for them later?
RW: Yes that’s it, and especially went from Stalag Luft 1 and then did about eighteen months there and then we were moved to Stalag Luft 3 and er -
AM: So what year are we now, 41 probably?
RW: My god, yes.
AM: So you were shot down early 41.
RW: January 41 yes.
AM: And then you were in hospital and eighteen months.
RW: I wasn’t in the hospital for eighteen months.
AM: No, no, the hospital and then you were in Stalag Luft 1 for eighteen months.
RW: That’s right.
AM: So we are now?
RW: Now in Stalag Luft 3.
AM: Probably early 43?
RW: About 43.
AM: By this time.
RW: And we did, and went to this new camp, er, we hadn’t heard of before.
AM: How did they move you, on trains?
RW: Yes, and er, yes, on cattle trucks, they weren’t very clean. There’s wire both sides of the entrance of the cattle truck and we were put in twenty each side, standing up, you couldn’t sit down, we were packed in. When you think half a cattle truck, and so this is how we moved, sometimes we had better accommodation but this new camp we went to was Stalag Luft 3, everything is new there, all the huts were new and so we started a different life.
AM: Were you the first intake into Stalag Luft 3?
RW: We were yes, from Stalag Luft 1 into Stalag Luft 3, and then, after that, they started to bring the RAF prisoners from other camps into Stalag Luft 3, and er, they said, ‘you’ll never escape from here, we’ve learnt too many lessons’, but we did, the lot, a lot of people said they tried, escaped from there and they probably tried but they didn’t succeed and it was difficult, and then all the different things, books had been written by prisoners [laughs] and things, no, it was very difficult. I tried once and out of the corner of our hut, I got down and one man from Cheltenham said, ‘you’ll get us all shot, you know’ because I dug through the floor and dug down and I could see where workmen had been, electricians or something yes, been working outside and there was a trench near the camp, near the um, wire and so I got down there and then got out there in the early hours of the morning. It was dark and er, I thought I can get under the wire, get under there, escape, fair enough, so I tried this and then I heard a guard approaching with his dog. Dogs, they were more like wolves, and he had got this one and I heard him coming along and so I got out of there, swiftly went up the road, oh yes, and I had an experience, I ran between two huts and I didn’t see wire stretching from one hut to the other and I ran into it, and it got me in the mouth, took me off my feet and I was strung up and the wire went into my mouth and forced, forced my teeth out. I lost seven teeth, and I landed on my back and then there was the guard and the dog, and he was afraid of that dog as I was [laughs], they weren’t trained to be friendly and so I was put into the cooler from there.
AM: What was that like?
RW: Rough. I had water to drink, bread, well when they say bread, black bread, just bread and er, I was in there for over a week.
AM: On your own?
RW: Oh yes, yes, oh yes.
AM: And no teeth.
RW: No teeth, they’d come out, I have no teeth now. I tell people that um, if I’ll say I had my teeth out, all paid for [laughs]. But um, all the time we were trying to, if we had any ideas about escaping, we had they had to go to this Massey who was the -
AM: What was the name sorry, Ron?
RW: Massey, Group Captain Massey, and you had to give your ideas to him for the escape committee, but something we noticed when we first went into Stalag Luft 3, that one part where the fence was, they hadn’t built any German huts or anything there, it hadn’t been finished. And so John Shaw, my good friend, he noticed this first and he said, ‘we’re gonna go try that’, he said, ‘we go first, the four of us’, I forget the other one and he said, ‘I go first because I noticed it first’. I said, ‘okay, then I’ll go, you get away now, I’ll go follow on’.
AM: How were you going to get out, were you going to tunnel under?
RW: Tunnel under there because they hadn’t built anything that side, so this is what we are going to do, and so you’ve got to appreciate, so John decided to go. What happened, bang, bang, and I have a photograph I’ll show you, with John, and shown in his coffin, he was shot right through the heart, so if people thought that these guards were asleep in the huts, no, and they were crack shots, they got him right through the heart, poor John.
AM: So the other three of you didn’t go?
RW: No, we’d been discovered that was it.
AM: Did you know the people who were involved in the great escape?
RW: No.
AM: No.
RW: No, they were mainly officers. You see what happened, we started off these tunnels under the cooking, took that away and then got all that (unclear) and then dug down to do the tunnels, but then again, we said this would happen, the officers took over, we started it as sergeants and then they said, ‘no, we are going to take over’, and then we were moved eventually to Heydekrug.
AM: To?
RW: Heydekrug.
AM: Which is?
RW: Heydekrug.
AM: Which is another camp?
RW: Which is another camp, yes, so we’d done a lot of work. I was, I helped out with moving the earth wearing these things there, but the soil, the soil we brought up from below, it was a different colour, so we had to take this earth from down below, walk around, walk around and distribute it and dig it in as we were moving, because they were watching us all the time.
AM: These are from the tunnels you dug?
RW: That’s right, yes [laughs], and we were getting rid of the earth, tons of earth, you know. It’s boring.
AM: Well yes, what else did you do in camp?
RW: Oh all kinds of things, apart from trying to escape [laughs], and er, we wrote shows. We did this, you see, and Les Knowle became a very good friend of mine and he was a pianist before the war, before he joined up and he, a professional pianist, was very good too.
AM: Was he the one next door to you in Morecambe or a different pianist?
RW: No, no, it was a different one.
AM: A different one.
RW: No, Les Knowle, he was a different one. This one I’m trying to think of his name, Ron, I forget now, but he went on to the BBC and worked from there and he was on the RAF Band.
AM: Yes.
RW: And then he became well known.
[Interruption]
AM: I’m just going to pause for a moment.
RW: Have you anywhere else.
AM: No, no, so we’ve got shows, what about, did you do any education they had?
RW: Oh yes, yes, and um, I’ve a pencil, and I was studying maths actually and I was going to do a course on maths and it was difficult because it was very, very cold, very cold, up in Lithuania, this was and getting close to Russia and so I was studying and then trying to write out holding the pencil.
AM: So literally holding it with whole of your hand?
RW: That’s right.
AM: Trying to write.
RW: Trying to write, it wasn’t easy, but it was quite good and then I studied, I was studying, was architect because I had been in the building trade, you see. I was taken away from the factory when I was fourteen.
AM: When you were fourteen yes.
RW: By my brother-in-law, who was, um, he’d come to the factory, fortunately before they absolutely killed me [laughs], and he said, ‘you, out’ and he took me away and made me an apprenticeship joiner.
AM: So you were a joiner. Going back to the camp in Lithuania.
RW: Oh Yes.
AM: So what happened then as, what did you know about what was happening in the war?
RW: We had clever people as sergeants, not all officers then. We had people from all walks of life as sergeants.
AM: As sergeants yes.
RW: And er, we had entertainers from the stage, and I wrote um, with Les Knowle, he wrote the music and I wrote the words for shows on the stage and I’ll show you a picture of him, but I don’t know if you have ever heard of Roy Dotrice?
AM: Yes
RW: You have? Well Roy, I’ll show you a picture.
AM: His daughter was an actress, Michelle.
RW: That’s right, he had two daughters, one lives in the States, Michelle, I was watching her the other night.
AM: And was he in the prison camp with you?
RW: Yes, yes, and then I never thought that he would, because he was very young, he was born in Jersey and he changed his age. He was very much younger than me then and he came over to the mainland and joined the RAF.
AM: What happened at the end of the war, how did you find out that the war was ending and what happened?
RW: Oh yes, now then, we had our radios that were built out of things, things we’d stolen from the Germans. I remember walking behind one man carrying, carrying a box and stealing something out of there and when they, they used to um, we used to be woken up in the early hours of the morning by the Nazis. They used to come in and get us out of bed, tear the place apart, and never put it back again, and all things taken out and then we would be walking around the compound from the early morning to late at night while these Nazis were searching and they, yes, and they used to go away with things. Oh yes, we used to steal their hats and their gloves and they weren’t very happy [laughs], and also if anyone escaped, they used to have what we called a sheep count, and they’d form up the barriers so we used to have to go through, and they’d check and check the numbers, you see, and we used to go through and then we used to go back round, and come in again, in the end they had more prisoners than they wanted [laughs], and that was one gag we got up to, and then some had contact at home. You’ve possibly seen it in the letters they used a code in a letter which the Germans couldn’t spot.
AM: To say where they were?
RW: That’s right, all kinds of things.
AM: So how did you find out that the war was coming to an end? From the radios?
RW: From the radios we had, yes. We had certain guys who were very clever, clever electricians among us, all kinds of things they used to do, where if a German came in the front about or something, a buzzer would ring at the far end telling whoever was doing something, escape committee at the other end.
AM: To stop them?
RW: Then bury the stuff again.
AM: Gosh.
RW: And then all things like that and um, the, yes, parts for the radios be stolen from the Germans [laughs] and they would build a main radio that one clever man used to operate. I forget the names now and um, they used to come around the huts and give us the, the news we used to get daily news, we knew exactly what was happening back home, and e,r when the invasion came, the first time, the Germans were gloating when they said, ‘that was your invasion’, when so many Canadians were killed, remember, my minds going.
AM: On the beaches at, yes.
RW: Yes, where so many were killed, and the Germans thought that was our invasion. They said, ‘you’ve had your invasion, you’ll be here’, I was told that I would be there for the rest of my life, they used to enjoy telling us this, that we would be there and we will be rebuilding Germany.
AM: Because they would win.
RW: That’s right.
AM: Sadly for them but thankfully for us.
RW: Oh, thankfully for us.
AM: They didn’t.
RW: But they loved telling us that we would be there forever.
AM: When it did all end? Were you involved in the long march?
RW: Oh yes.
AM: You were.
RW: That was the worst part of it.
AM: Gary’s making faces.
Gary: I’ll leave it.
RW: Okay. That was a tough one, the long march.
AM: How long were you on the march for, Ron?
RW: I can’t think now.
AM: Months, it was months, wasn’t it?
RW: Months, months, bad weather, bad weather, so many died, and then we were, we had no food and they’d been trying to get through to us and then this one Red Cross wagon appeared and he said, ‘this is the third load I’ve had. I’ve been shot at, and destroyed, then I have gone back and got another load’, and finally, well you know the story.
AM: Sadly.
RW: And some sights there, on that march, and one man, he was signalling with his coat in the meadow, this meadow where we were, shot up by the fighters and I saw him just cut in the air.
AM: Shot at by German fighters?
RW: No, by our fighters.
AM: By our fighters.
RW: Yes, they thought we were Germans.
AM: Right.
RW: And he was just cut in two, Roger. Next time I saw him, just his legs standing there, top half gone and they killed forty, fifty of us there, it was a rough one. Oh, and we were in twos, they delivered these Red Cross parcels, we shared one between two, and when we were shot at by Typhoons by the way, based locally and all the way through, we’d been shot at by Spitfires, and what have you, Hurricanes, they thought we were Germans. And on one occasion, we were walking, they made us walk at night because, so through the day, we had to sleep in barns with their animals, and the Germans, the German people used to give things to the guards but nothing to us, not like this country where there were prisoners, their prisoners there given food but we never got anything from the Germans. If we wanted a drink, we had to wait till we got to rivers, lakes, or something or get washed.
AM: So how did you get rescued in the end?
RW: Oh that is another story. The 10th Hussars. We were hearing reports our, our troops across the Rhine and how close they were getting and we were being marched away, we were going to be hostages and Hitler would have got rid of us eventually, we’d have been shot or what have you. We were heading for Norway somewhere and they were taking us as we were going to be hostages, but so many things happened we were shut up, barns were set on fire, men were there.
AM: With men in them?
RW: Yes.
AM: Yes. But the 10th Hussars were?
RW: The 10th Hussars caught up with us and oh, they were marvellous, they treated us like royalty. They set up trestles in this village in Ratzeburg in Lubeck, Ratzeburg, and er, this little village and it was in March, was it May?
AM: So May of 45?
RW: We went through Luneburg, where they signed the Armistice, and we went through there and then we came back through there when the signing had been done, and it was marvellous, so they set up tables there with food on, couldn’t eat it.
AM: I was going to say, could you eat it?
RW: No, no. One man died because he tried, he tried to eat, couldn’t. Then we came back from Lowenberg on Lancasters and I’ll never forget seeing white girls, posh ladies all made up, I thought they, I thought they were on the stage somewhere, heavy lipstick.
AM: Once you got back you mean?
RW: And this is when we, no, when the 10th Hussars. Oh yes, that’s another one, we had the, this major, English major. I said, ‘can I help?’ because I had had stomach trouble and couldn’t eat anything, so I felt this marvellous feeling.
AM: Freedom.
RW: Freedom, marvellous after four and a half years, freedom. And I’d stuck my neck out several times, one man, I bent down to pick up food or something, I don’t know what it was, peas somebody dropped on the road, and this guard, he came behind me, kicked me up the backside and I went over and I got up and turned round to gonna belt him, and the look on his face, and his Tommy gun was there waiting for it, just what he wanted. All they wanted, an excuse.
AM: To kill you?
RW: Yes and er -
AM: When you saw the Lancaster?
RW: Oh yes.
AM: You’d been in Whitleys, what did you think of the Lancaster?
RW: We saw the side of it really [laughs].
AM: Four engines.
RW: Four engines, yes, marvellous.
AM: So they brought you home in the Lanc.
RW: Yes, they landed at, forget now where it was, down South somewhere, and as we landed they opened the door and a lovely young WAAF came, and I had my box with some belongings in. This girl got it and I grabbed it back from her she said, ‘it’s all right you are home now’ [laughs] and er, she led me off and as I was talking to her, going up to the hangar, I said, ‘this is a holiday’, this is VE Day, you see. I said, ‘you’re on holiday, what are you doing here?’ She said ‘oh we volunteered, we were the lucky ones’. I couldn’t understand it ‘cos we were filthy and the first this they did - whoosh, whoosh, whoosh.
AM: Shower?
RW: Not a shower.
AM: Water?
RW: No - debugged.
AM: Oh right, oh sorry, they sprayed you?
RW: That’s right, yes, before anybody could touch us [laughs] and then they had all this food out, I couldn’t eat anything, not a thing, and then from there we came up on the train to where we went, see that photograph, and we came up there, all there, all the records were up there. That was marvellous. Then one day we were taken over, over there, records and what have you, but I went home and that was a rough time because I found my wife, I had my daughter, was that much older, she was only two and a half when I went away, she was seven she didn’t know me, didn’t know me, didn’t want to know me. And er, then my wife had met me at the station, although I didn’t want to see her because I’d had reports and she wrote to me and didn’t want to know me ‘cos she’d met an American and she wanted to get married to him. And so um, that was my homecoming, didn’t want to know me. I‘d had a letter from her saying she wanted a divorce, which I wanted too after that, and then my folks had been trying to meet the train to tell me what she had been up to, what she’d become, well you can understand it, it had been a long time.
AM: Yes.
RW: But the way she did it, she dyed her hair, it was red, and er, I’d asked a friend in camp who came from Stoke, from near where I was, where I lived, if he could find out why, what’s happening because she didn’t write to me. I’d only one letter that I had and she wanted more money, it’s all she was interested in.
AM: So your pay while you were a prisoner of war goes to your wife, doesn’t it?
RW: That’s right, it went to her and then she wanted more money, and so I came back and went up and met my wife, as I say, I didn’t know anything what she had been doing, no one had told me and this friend in camp, I’d asked him to find out what was happening, why I hadn’t had any letters from my, my wife and er, he put it off all the while. I said, ‘have you heard from your wife?’, ‘no’. I didn’t know anything about it.
AM: He wouldn’t tell you?
RW: No, and so when I got back, it was my wife who knew, my wife. He said to me, he said, ‘Ron, I couldn’t tell you what I found out about her’.
AM: No.
RW: Couldn’t tell you. So I met her and she was all over me and I met all her sisters and her brothers because it’s difficult, very difficult because my folks had been trying to meet me off the train but she’s the one who had been told.
AM: She’s the one who’s entitled to know.
RW: That’s right, and she’d got the time of the train, she met me, all the other trains had been coming in my side had been.
AM: They all missed you?
RW: They’d all missed me, everyone.
AM: Oh dear.
RW: My homecoming and I felt like going back.
AM: You married again though. Amy.
RW: Yes.
AM: I’ve met Amy and she is lovely for the record.
RW: Yes, oh the best thing that ever happened to me.
AM: Wonderful. I’m going to switch off now, Ron.
RW: Yes okay.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ron Wade
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-26
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWadeR150726, PWadeR1503
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:44:54 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Description
An account of the resource
Ron was born in Stoke-on-Trent. He left school at fourteen and tells of his experiences working in a pottery factory doing odd jobs until he was called up. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1939 at the age of twenty-two. Ron trained as an air gunner at RAF Morecambe after initially wanting to be selected for pilot training. He completed his air gunner training in South Wales at the end of the Battle of Britain - he tells of being strafed by a Junkers 88 and the damage that was inflicted to the Nissen huts. Ron flew the Whitley, which he did not enjoy. He then went to an Operational Training Unit at RAF Abingdon before moving to 58 Squadron based at RAF Linton on Ouse. Ron tells of being forced to bale out in 1941 after his Whitley was attacked by two German fighters over the the Netherlands. He did not remember that much since ammunition was exploding and a bullet hit him in the back of the head, leaving him with memory, taste and smell impairment. Ron also tells of his first interrogation by a German officer and how his humour nearly causing trouble at the at Cologne railway station. He was transferred to Stalag Luft I and then to Stalag Luft III. Ron tried a few times to escape but was discovered every time - he also details the death of his close friend during one attempt. Ron was eventually transferred to Stalag Luft VI (Heydekrug, Lithuania) which was his last camp before the end of the war. However, with the end looming, Ron was then forced to go on the long march. He then tells of some of his memories of the event, including being strafed by British fighters. Ron was freed when the British Army 10th Hussars caught up with the group near Lubeck, and he tells the story of his homecoming in May 1945.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Lancashire
Netherlands
Poland
Germany
Lithuania
Poland--Żagań
Germany--Barth
Lithuania--Šilutė
Wales
Germany--Oberursel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1945-05
58 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
crewing up
Dulag Luft
escaping
Ju 88
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Morecambe
Stalag Luft 1
Stalag Luft 3
Stalag Luft 6
strafing
the long march
training
Whitley
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Akrill, William. Letters written at thirteen
Description
An account of the resource
Ten illustrated letters written to Billy Akrill's father who was in hospital in 1935. The letters refer to farm activities in Newark and Nottinghamshire: animals, the weather and his family and include illustrated stories. There are also cartoons and drawings, some coloured.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Billy Akrill
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Akrill, WE
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Potter Hill,
Collingham,
Newark Notts
[underlined] 12/5/35 [/underlined]
Oh King, Live for ever!
May it please your gracious majesty to know that the Indian game eggs [drawing of 3 eggs] bestowed upon thy humble servant on the thirteenth day of the fourth month of the thirty-fifth year, which were duly sat upon by a hen, have hatched [drawing of a bird] Yes Verily! And behold they wax strong [drawing of a bird] in the sight of me lord (that’s me) ahem!
Oh my! Mother’s just parked the rug on the hearth. “Take off thy shoes from off thy feet for the place where thou standest is holy ground” Not ‘arf [drawing]
In your dear lordship’s garden planted up here the plants are gay wi’ bloom [drawing of flowers] wallflowers, Lilac, pansies, dandelions, irises, daisies, chickweed, lilies of the valley, forget-me-nevers, tulips, narsissi [sic] Laburnum & shamrock, not forgetting the handsome nettles and groundsel are all alive with blooms [drawing of flowers]
Aye & the lawn will soon be ready for cutting though we do not like disturbing the partidge [sic] nests
[page break]
built there in [drawing]. There is also a skylark or two [drawing] And behold! when Harry returned home yesterday evening at 2 o’clock this morning he brought with him a large coker [sic] nut [drawing] which he cracked open and now I need my tummy rubbing [drawing] as I’ve eaten such a lot [drawings]
Harry’s just put his foot on the rug. [drawing] Bad job fo [sic] him if mother sees [drawings]
Yours till Hens lay square tin eggs
[drawings]
Billy
What a life looking after ducks! [drawing]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Billy Akrill to his father
Description
An account of the resource
Writes about the farm, hatching eggs and the garden, detailing the flowers. Includes illustrations of plants, hatching eggs, animals and people.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Billy Akrill
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1935-05-12
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page illustrated letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Artwork
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SAkrillWE1436220v10002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Newark (Nottinghamshire)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1935-05
1935-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
animal
-
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80afa1ba36029fedafbee0d638703d3f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1305/18158/SAkrillWE1436220v10003-0002.2.jpg
f33acf6645392bc09cb4b189f693bbbe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Akrill, William. Letters written at thirteen
Description
An account of the resource
Ten illustrated letters written to Billy Akrill's father who was in hospital in 1935. The letters refer to farm activities in Newark and Nottinghamshire: animals, the weather and his family and include illustrated stories. There are also cartoons and drawings, some coloured.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Billy Akrill
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Akrill, WE
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Potter Hill Farm,
Collingham,
Newark. Notts.
22 May 1935.
Dear Daddy
Calves have been sold. Result:- Top Nancy £15..10s (+ £1..17s 6d)
Walter Wells £12 ..15s
B. Renshaw £10 .. 15s
F. Cook £10 .. 0s.
Bernard Wells £7 .. 10s
J. Hemsal £6 .. 10s.
Average £10 .. 10s
Morris Sheldon bought Nancy. He’s keeping her ‘till Christmas. The Co’op Butcher wanted her too. Harry took her round. Crowds of folks came to look at her & asked if she had to go through the auction. We had her graded (M Sheldon paid). Substiby [sic] £1 .. 17s 6d. Total price £17 .. 7s .. 6d. Mrs Fitz Herbert asked me how much I thought she’d make I told her Harry said £15. She said if she made £12 I should do well. Charlie Bird charged 14/- for the 6. Harry & a lot more rode in with calves
About messed up when they came out. Of course Nancy was.
Mary & I took the 7 pigs. They made 26/6 each. £9.5s 6d altogether I think we had a good (& certainly busy) day Harry drew £26 .. 1s .. 6d. Newark [underlined] very [/underlined] busy.
Battles have just brought 10 buckets & 1 drum of sheep dip
Got 14 more gibs (so far) that makes 51. The biggest are beauties. [drawing of a bird]
[deleted] [indecipherable sentence] [/deleted]
Well I’ll feed the gibs etc.
Toodle oo
[underlined] Billy [/underlined]
[drawings of farm animals, people and vans]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Billy Akrill to his father
Description
An account of the resource
Lists recently sold calves, prices and the names of their new owners. Comments on the sales process and about taking the pigs to market, includes amounts made from their sale also. Includes drawings of the cow auction and market.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Billy Akrill
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1935-05-22
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page handwritten illustrated letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Artwork
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SAkrillWE1436220v10003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Newark (Nottinghamshire)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1935-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
animal
arts and crafts
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Akrill, William. Letters written at thirteen
Description
An account of the resource
Ten illustrated letters written to Billy Akrill's father who was in hospital in 1935. The letters refer to farm activities in Newark and Nottinghamshire: animals, the weather and his family and include illustrated stories. There are also cartoons and drawings, some coloured.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Billy Akrill
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Akrill, WE
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Potter Hill Frm,
N. Collingham,
Newark
26th May 1935
Dear Pa
Scenes of great excitement Yea! This morn, finding myself in need of a run (a chicken run not exercize [sic]) [drawing] I jumped up the loft after one [drawing] when suddely [sic] a great “rawkussin” was heard [drawing] & Lucy [drawing] appeared on the scene [drawing] “Oh cum [sic] an’ look I’ve summin [sic] to show you” she says [drawing] Full of curiosity I followed. Into the slack-yard we went [drawing] and saw [symbol]
[drawing of ducks and hens]
Yes we knew the old duck was sitting somewhere as she never came in at night [drawing]. Where we had no idea intill [sic] the old duck led the calves between the pea & wheat straw stack [drawing] there we found 5 more eggs [drawing] 2 had dead ducks in [drawing] course I had to see [drawing] I like broggling in eggs which don’t hatch
[page break]
I shut the old duck in a run & fed them [inserted] [underlined] (correct)[/underlined] [/inserted] [drawing] I had another shock on Friday [drawing]
I was lifting a broody of [sic] to feed her [drawing] when I suddenly saw her eggs were all “cracked” [drawing] On looking closer I saw that they were “chipped”. And before long there were two ducks out [drawing]. They should have come off on Monday instead of Friday, but they would be out [drawing of eggs]
We had a lovely time at the College yesterday but I must tell you about that on Sat as I’ve written thousands of letters & am about fed up
So
Toodle-oo
P.S. Found. Fr Partidge [sic] nest 7 eggs again old reaper in slack yd & a Partige [sic] 18 in orchard 3 yds from a stoat [symbol] hole got 3 chicks Harry after him [drawing]
[drawings]
[page break]
[fourteen farmyard drawings]
WATSON PULLETS
Although old Brownie is dead I’ve got another Brownie she’s just like old Brownie in ways. And is even “blind of an eye”.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Billy Akrill to his father
Description
An account of the resource
Writes about farm animals and a recent visit to the college. Illustrated with pictures of animals and people. The last page is a coloured, comic strip style drawing about chickens on the farm.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Billy Akrill
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1935-05-26
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three page illustrated handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Artwork
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SAkrillWE1436220v10004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Newark (Nottinghamshire)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1935-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
animal
arts and crafts
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Akrill, William. Letters written at thirteen
Description
An account of the resource
Ten illustrated letters written to Billy Akrill's father who was in hospital in 1935. The letters refer to farm activities in Newark and Nottinghamshire: animals, the weather and his family and include illustrated stories. There are also cartoons and drawings, some coloured.
Creator
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Billy Akrill
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Akrill, WE
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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1
Potter Hill [drawing]
Collingham
Newark Notts.
Sat. 1 June [drawing]
Dear Pop, [drawing]
Oh watter toim we ed a gittin to de buss [drawing] We ran down de hill, [drawing] bumped into Mish-ta Ned Rushtun at de Stooan Bow [drawing], Flew straight past him [drawing] & arrived at de buss stayshun where we met Arntee Nellee [drawing] loaded with parcels which were flung at us. [drawing] Just in time for de buss [drawing]
And so home again [drawing] Mother & auntie about fagged out [drawing]. amen. [drawing]
[drawing] Geoff & a young lady outside hospital
[drawing] Past the Traffic lights
[drawing] the kittens at play
[page break]
2
[underlined] Sunday. [/underlined] June 2nd.
Ah, a lovely rain. [drawing] Grand! [drawing] It started about 1/2 past eight & has been raining hard ever since [drawing] The geese & ducks say its grand [drawing] & so does everybody else [drawing]
Oh dear its stopped. [drawing] But it looks like starting again [drawing] THIS VACANT SPACE FOR SALE 1/- per day.
Last Wednesday Lucy & I looked round the Castle (Fillingham) [drawing] & the gardens [drawing]
Guiness for Strength
We had rather a hurried peep round [drawing] Looked through the top [drawing] & would have liked to have walked on the roof [drawing] but had no time
[page break]
3
[drawing] There were two people buying plants [drawings] from Ann Johnson [drawing] who knew you were in hospital. [drawings] He says he used to play football against Collingham & knew it ever so well
SUPPORT GENEROUSLY KING GEORGE’S JUBILEE TRUS AND SMOKE PLAYERS’ [drawing]
[drawing] Another cletch of kittens. Whiskers’s [drawing] She’s got – or had – 5 [drawings] three jet black & two black & white. They were big ones. TAKE “HIKITS” AND KEEP FIT. 6d PER TIN.
I’ve caugh [sic] a lot of sparrows lately [drawing] & given them [drawing] to the kittens. The black one of Midge’s (which is mothered by Felix) is a little monkey for them [drawing] He’s eaten sparrows which were as big as himself [drawing]. Lucy & mother have named
[page break]
4
him “Toots” [drawing] he has such staring eyes & lives in the granary [drawing]
“Bubbles” Ginger’s Black & White kitten is also a rascal for sparrows [drawing] Talk about “sweem”! “Jessie” Ginger’s toitorshell [sic] kitten doesn’t care for sparrows at all [drawing] but is always come off top in the fights. [drawing] Its such fun to see them playing [drawing]
[drawing] The kittens have always dirty noses & all Ginger’s washing can’t keep them clean.
I tried to draw Jessie but I couldn’t get the mischievous expression on her face
[page break]
5
Charlie [drawing] has become very friendly with his children [drawing] & slept with them last night. The Grey goose is still laying [drawing] Mrs White comes off a week on Monday. I shall test them tomorrow [drawings] Mother has given Auntie all the goose eggs we’re getting now. She’s got 7. I’ve lost count of the gibs now. [drawing] About 60. I think [drawing] 20 more eek! & still more to come [drawing] I keep the big ones out of the orchard [drawing] by nailing backing round the fences. Ive [sic] a variety of drinking vessels in the stock-yard where they go for water[drawing]
[page break]
6
I had a gosling which wasn’t feeling too grand so I went to the drinking place & took him away and – [drawing] Charles & Ann Grey were soon after me. But Charlie got “what for” [drawing]
[drawings]
ADEU
[underlined] Billy [/underlined]
Remember me to Nurse Wright & Doug.
[page break]
7
[underlined] LATEST NEWS. [/underlined]
THINGS I’VE FORGOTTEN.
Uncle Jack, Ernest & Peter have come [drawing] Ernest has brought 5 gals of oil for £1 .. 7s [drawing] At Challand’s it would cost £2. [drawing] Everybody’s making a fuss of Peter. He can say lots of words & knows the different animals “Moo” for cows, “Maa” for sheep, & cockaal for hens. [drawing] he’s as brown as a bilberry. Walter Wells & a college [sic] He came to see Harry [drawing] this afternoon. [drawing]
I’ve two old hens out of the year sitting away [drawing] 1 on 17 & 1 on 16.
[page break]
8
Mother sends love & hasn’t time to write “hopes your [sic] getting on O.K.
Cheerio!
[underlined] Billy [/underlined]
P.S. We’re just having a thunder shower. ‘Bess & Peg are terrified & have come in the house. Peter’s been amusing us during tea.
I don’t suppose Harry’ll get this in tonight
Toodle pip
B
[drawing]
P.P.S. Nora (Saxby) always asks me how you are she’s very concerned about you
Cheerie by B
P.P.P.S. Sun’s coming out.
Toodle oo B
P.P.P.P.S. If you can get any “Kings & Queens” out of Player’s cigarettes Please save me them. Good Bye Billy
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Letter from Billy Akrill to his father
Description
An account of the resource
Writes of the weather, a visit to Fillingham Castle, acquaintances, new kittens, geese laying and family members. Includes a number of drawings of people, places and animals.
Creator
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Billy Akrill
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
Format
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Eight page illustrated handwritten letter
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Artwork
Identifier
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SAkrillWE1436220v10005
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Newark (Nottinghamshire)
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1935-06-01
1935-06-02
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1935-06
animal
arts and crafts
-
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Teasdale, Audrey
Audrey Pitts
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. An oral history interview with Audrey Teasdale (b. 1923, 2135963 Royal Air Force) and photographs. She served as a WAAF in the officers' mess at RAF Waddington.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Audrey Teasdale and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2022-12-20
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Teasdale, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AT: Er, from my own point of view I, you know, after the exam had gone before I got my act together and so none of us really managed a qualification, but we were all very well educated. And my Harry, er my two eldest brothers, they both worked in the Coal Board, as I said, my father was a colliery manager and Fred was in administration with the local authority. My Tom, the middle brother, he finished up as a company secretary for the Coal Board. We did all our study after school, y'know, we did it all off our own bats and erm...
BW: So was it night school that you went to?
AT: Night school and as we progressed, you'll see what I did, y'know but er, so it was night school and it was, y'know, interesting things and, you know, getting on with life generally and we had this encouragement from home and...
BW: You say your Mother was Victorian, she worked in service.
AT: In service yes, yes...
BW: Whereabouts did she work, was it a grand house or something?
AT: Yes, she's worked, yes, cos there's photograph there, I think, with one of the people she was with. Oh no, yeah, yeah. She worked with gentry but she also, at one point, worked at the girls grammar school in Wakefield. Yes but lovely lady.
BW: And what age were you when you left school?
AT: 14.
BW: Which was standard at that time.
AT: Standard, yes. And, do you want to know my occupation from then on?
BW: Yeah, what did you go on to do?
AT: My first occupation, I used to walk to the station, which was a mile away, then get a train to Leeds. And I worked for a firm called Barrens and it was a tailoring firm and I worked in their offices and it all related to production and y'know, what they were using and the sort of stuff that went on to the actual finished product and that sort of thing. So I did clerical work with them and I followed on where I got a job in Wakefield. I worked with a jeweler, a very top shop jewelers, you know, it was Appleyard's, in a terrific arcade, terrific shop. So I went there and then from there I was always sort of in the retail business and I went to work at the Co-op, ha! And I worked in the furnishing department where I was first assistant and I did all the erm, now then, the word, you know when they can't afford to pay...
BW: Debt.
AT: Er, actually making out the agreements for them to sign, you know, when they'd got x number of years to pay it in, y'know, that sort of thing. The name just escapes me.
BW: Repayments?
AT: Er, yeah, it was, it was, y'know, basically the lay out of what they'd bought, the interest to be paid and, and the period that they were going to pay it in. Yes, and that was it, all official and then they made the payments to the [unclear] and I did that and I was first assistant for sales.
01:08:24
BW: How long were you doing that job for?
AT: Oh it was, y’know, it was sort of between the jobs, you know, between that and my service really and er, yeah, and I did sort of clerical work and I actually went into the WAAF from there.
BW: Do you remember where you were, where your family was, when war was declared?
AT: At home. Yes, yes, er my youngest brother, the two boys - the elder brothers, they obviously were in the Coal Board, working in the Coal Board, and of course, were exempt. Fred, the youngest one, was in administration with the local authority and of course, he was conscripted. And he was in the Green Howard Regiment and stationed in Northern Ireland. But he never went abroad. A great brother and we used to, when I was in the WAAF, we used to write to each other and he kept in touch with home, and y’know, we'd always continue, you know, keeping in touch.
BW: So how old were you then when war was dec... when war broke out?
AT: About 23 and it broke out in '39...
BW: So you [unclear].
AT: Yes and then I went to, went to, I was conscripted and then I actually went into the WAAF 15th December 1942.
BW: So, what sort of choice did you have? You mentioned you were conscripted, how did that work, particularly for women because we think of men as being primarily conscripted but...
AT: Yes. I sort of could have gone the fire brigade, which didn't appeal at all [laughs]. Land Army but I think what did it [laughs] I was out one day and I saw this advert [laughs] "Join the WAAF and work with the men who fly", and I thought, 'That's for Audrey' [laughs]. So that's what I did.
BW: OK
AT: And of course, I could have been anything then, I could have been a balloon operator - barrage balloon, doing anything, really. But basically, all my time I was in the officer's mess and my, all my work was generally clerical and y’know, relating to the crews and different things.
BW: So you decided to join the WAAF. Did you, ah, it may be perhaps too detailed but I'm just interested to understand did you have to go into the air force recruitment office to complete that or was it different, did you go in to sign up?
AT: Er, I remember, you made the decision to go and then of course it just took place after that. I remember going down to, I can't remember where it was but I was interviewed and it was discussed and yeah. That's very vague to me but I do remember that.
BW: I was going to ask you about your interview and whether there was a particular test that you sat for example, maths or English or anything like that?
AT: No, no qualifications. Basically it was the things you were interested in.
BW: And how long between you being conscripted did it take for you to actually get into training?
AT: More or less immediately.
BW: Right.
AT: Yes, I remember I, it was, 15th December '42 and I went, I think, to Innesworth in Gloucester, where I was kitted out then that didn't take long and then I came back to Morecambe to do my square bashing and I was there about a fortnight. We lived, I lived in billets in the West End of Morecambe and that was very funny.
BW: How long did you spend there?
AT: Just a fortnight. It was a training and it was so funny because obviously it was winter, it was December, it was icy. We had a flight sergeant who did a thing and I'll be [laughs], quite [unclear] what he said but we couldn't stand up and he said, "What do you want me to do? Whistle the bloody skater's waltz?" [laughs]. And the other thing that was interesting about the square bashing was, they'd horses on the promenade and there was poo all over the place and you were marching away merrily and if you got your foot in that everybody got it from behind. You used to be absolutely blathered sometimes. But, that was quite an experience, the icing and the horse poo [laughter].
BW: And I believe you would have your passing out parade on Morecambe prom, is that right?
AT: Yes, yes...yeah.
BW: And it must have been pretty close to Christmas when you passed out of your fortnight's training.
AT: Yes, yes...yeah.
BW: Or just past.
AT: Yes, yeah. I can't remember that but I do know I went from there to Lindholme, Doncaster. I didn't stay there very long. I don't know, really and there was a lot of army personnel there at that time. And I don't know what the purpose of that. I wasn't there that very long and then I got a posting to Waddington. And when I got to Waddington, my time at Waddington, I was actually with 9 Squadron, which was English, 44 Squadron, which was Rhodesian and 467 and 463 which were Australian and I sort of did my service there. And from the first day, you know, I sort of worked in the officer's mess and I did lots of clerical work relating to that. Occasionally I did waitressing and I always used to get the job of the VIPs who would have a special room and I would serve them. Like Wing Commander Nettleton VC. I met him. And lots of personalities, you know, they came through. You know, met a lot of people.
BW: You mentioned Wing Commander Nettleton.
AT: Yes.
BW: He led, I think, the raid on Augsburg, which was quite a famous raid.
AT; Yes.
BW: What were your recollections of him? Did you meet him often?
AT: Lovely man. And he married a WAAF officer. Yeah and I remember service tea for them when they came, when she came. Yeah, yeah.
BW: So you were on the base, there, at Waddington, in the officer's mess, were you there pretty much all of the time, were all your duties conducted in...?
AT: In the officer's mess, yes. I did, sort of, I used to get the, the battle orders, if you'd like to call them that and I knew the crews, where they were going and they used to get a special meal when they were going on a flight cos it was often a nine hour flight and I used to, you know, make sure that they got their flight [meal], you know. They all passed through the desk and I checked that they were there and that they should get this meal, and what have you and, so that was that and of course, when they came back and...
BW: So, because the orders were going through your desk as an admin clerk, you would probably know where they were going before they did.
AT: Yeah, yeah.
BW: And was it you that put the orders up on the board each night?
AT: No, no. I was just responsible for the crews, the crews that, you know, who was going through. And this was another funny thing, they were so funny, the life they were living and you know, it was a case of eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we, we'd be...they were so, so, you know. And so respectful that it wasn't like it is today, it was, the changes in men's [sic] because they'd so much. I think probably in the early days of the war, when the WAAFs and sort of, army, you know they got the women in, I think probably in the early days they got a lot of the rough but at the time that I was going in, in '42, we got the greatest respect. And they, the crews, knew exactly who was who and what was what and...you understand what I am saying? And, yes, they made an effort. But what I was saying, they were so funny cos, I remember one time, [they were returning] and I was sat at my desk and I looked up at this officer and he smelt beautiful [laughs] and you know, for one moment, I thought, "Anything I can help you with?" and I said, "Have you been flying, Sir?" He says, "No, I've been for a walk in the park!" [laughter]. Yes, so, needless to say, he hadn't but he'd obviously managed to shower and smell beautiful [chuckles].
BW: So, where were you, yourself, billeted?
AT: I were in the Waafery [sic], a beautiful house, I don't know if it's still there, a beautiful old building on the left as you went into the 'drome. Do you know the Waafery? I might have a photograph somewhere.
BW: That was the name of it - The Waafery?
AT: Yes, yeah, yeah. And there was, we used lovely bedrooms and I think I may remember, I was on the ground floor and there was three of us in most bedrooms and, there was a night when someone got through the window on the ground floor - he was obviously looking for a WAAF but [laughs] it wasn't one of us three [laughs]. So, yeah, I lived in there.
BW: So, did you make good friends with the other WAAFs there?
AT: Yes, very good, yes. I've got pictures of them. Yes, really good friendships. And all the staff I worked with, really, because there was the cooking staff and y’know, and everything that went with...and I used to go to some beautiful functions, you know, the officers used to have at The Bulls Head and I mean, the food wasn't a problem, y’know, you got beautiful food and everything and we were just on duty, basically, to see if everything was all going alright.
BW: So it wasn't just your room mates you got on well with, you got on well with the other...
AT: I got on well with the crews and everyone, hmm. Yes, there were, I mean, the English, y’know, were very much the stiff upper lip type and a little bit more serious, 'Yes sir and no sir, three bags full, sir', sort of thing but the, er, Rhodesian and the, y’know, Australian they were so laid back, you know. I mean, we didn't, we couldn't have hair on our shoulders and we were not supposed to fraternise with the officers but, you know, they were so completely different to our officers. Nevertheless, our officers were still very nice.
BW: So, the officer's mess wasn't segregated between squadrons presumably, it was a large - was it a large mess for all of them?
AT: It was a large mess and of course, you had your sergeant's mess and your other ranks, yeah but you know, if I, on my first day arriving back on camp I was in the other rank but I spent my...
BW: So what would a typical day look like?
AT: In what respect?
BW: Well, what would you, would you sort of be up maybe six in the morning and into work for eight or what? And would you spend, say, half the day in the office and the other time at mealtimes on shift? How would it work for you?
AT: No, it wasn’t.. I don't remember it being too specific because you had flights at different times and you know, it varied.
BW: So you were just required to serve meals at particular...?
AT: Times, yeah. And operational meals were separate of course, at a different time of the day but I don't even remember what sort of a shift I worked, you know, the hours I worked or anything. But it was all very normal to me, you know, nothing outrageous.
BW: So it seemed fairly regular hours and then would you have evenings off, most evenings?
AT: Oh yes, yes. Yes, you'd nothing after a meal was served, really. And, of course, at that time I could have been somewhere else, i.e. they weren't all going on operations, yeah.
BW: You mentioned, erm, serving meals to crews who would be out on the night raids, on the missions into Germany and occupied territory, did you ever get to hear what their targets were, did you get a sense of where they were going or was it only when they came back?
AT: Only when they came back, really, yes, yes and you know, it wasn't, that was unpleasant, really because we knew them so well and you know so many went for a burton and, you know their life span wasn't very long, was it? For a, y’know, a newly qualified pilot who would probably be 19 or 20, you know, going on their first ops and lifespan were about a fortnight, wasn't it.
BW: So, when the crew lists were up and there was a raid on for that night, would you be serving them their meal around lunchtime or mid afternoon?
AT: Well the night raids it would be going on, you know, towards you know and have the time to check in, you know, that sort of thing.
BW: Yeah. I was just thinking, because they'd have to allow, you know, you sort of work back from when they would have to be over the target and they've got to go to briefing
AT: Yes and they got to go to briefing, yes, all that, yeah. But, I didn't particularly clock all that because I worked to a timetable.
BW: And when you got the time off on the evenings, what kind of things were you able to do, socially?
AT: There were always something, I mixed with people then and you know, we used to get to dances in the sergeant's mess and there was sport, I used to play tennis and we were always going down to the local pub and celebrating something, y’know, someone had done their first trip or finished a tour of ops or it was somebody's 21st birthday or, y’know, something. We'd a nice social life and we used to go to the villages nearer and we had bikes and we used to cycle to the other villages and go to the village dances and we did a lot of dancing, ha! [chuckling].
BW: Did you get into Lincoln, itself?
AT: Yes. Now, at the weekends, we were allowed to wear civilian clothes and y’know, when we went dancing and there's an officer there in a crew, who, we won [chuckles], we won a jitterbugging competition [unclear]. You know, it was lovely, there was a lovely spirit, lovely. We'd lots of things to do, really.
BW: So who would you socialise more with because you were working in the officer's mess, dances in the sergeant's mess, so would you mix more with officers or with NCOs or with other ranks?
AT: I think I probably mixed more with the officers but I still enjoyed the company of the sergeant's mess so, or the other ranks, if it comes to that. But, Brian Fallon, one of the officers, actually come [sic] and spent a leave at my home in West Yorkshire. You know, I had a lot of contact with them and I suppose I was more inclined to have...but nevertheless, I did, er. I've got a thing there, somewhere, where it was an invitation to the last dance of the 467 Squadron or something like that, you know.
BW: And was Waddington where you stayed throughout your WAAF service?
AT: No, when, oh... nine squadron went to Bardney and the Rhodesian squadron moved on and so the last few years I was with 467 and 463 and er. What was the question there?
BW: Did you stay at Waddington or did you move on elsewhere?
AT: Ah, yeah, I went to, when I left Waddington, cos it was at the end of the war, I went down to Silverstone in Northants and that was, you know, there wasn't a great deal to do. It was almost like a civilian thing because we were preparing to be demobbed. But there again, we had a nice carry on, I remember being introduced to greyhound racing [chuckles], when I was in Silverstone. Now then, what was the name of the place, it begins a 'B'... Anyway, I can't remember it. And we used to go to this, and there was a chappie who worked with the greyhounds and the first race you could guarantee a 'cert' and he used to mark our cards for us [laughter]. I always remember thinking, "Oh, if I had only had just put my wedge on it..." but I didn't, I just put my pittance cos it was so little.
BW: So what did you get paid?
AT: I can't remember, but I do remember, at one point, I got an increase and instead of saluting and saying "963" I said, "Thank you!" [laughs]. I was so delighted! Not very popular! [laughter]
BW: So Silverstone was quite different to being at Waddington. You must have been at Waddington, probably, 18 months - two years, easily?
AT: Two years yes. I spent very little time at Lindholme.
BW: Were there particular raids or events that you remember at Waddington? Because the squadrons took part in them during that time but I wonder if anything came out through the talk with the squadrons or [unclear]
AT: No, no. I remember the experience, various experiences, because I remember seeing the greatest bonfire of my life when I was at Waddington because I was watching them come back and I was stood next to a WAAF officer, she was watching as well and they German, the Messerschmidt followed them back and they strafed the 'drome and they didn't hit a Lancaster bomber but beyond, which offices, was the incendiary dump and they hit that and poosh! You can imagine, the place was lit up, it was amazing. That was an experience. Different things happened, you know.
BW: When people look at photos and some film footage they would see, as the bombers took off, people gathered at the halt point waving them off...
AT: Yes, I personally and others, used to go and walk on the perimeter track and we were living very dangerous cos of the 1000 lb bombs but we used to go and wave them off cos, you know, we knew the crews and where they were going. We used to go onto the perimeter track.
BW: And did you watch them come back?
AT: Well, no, no because that could have been early hours, you know, whatever. Basically, we went to see them off.
BW: And, it might sound a daft question but, were you attached to a particular aircraft, did you recognise particular aircraft or did you just generally go and wave everybody off?
AT: Yes, yes, we knew the crews and different things and, of course, as you'll be aware, Hitler said that no enemy plane would ever fly over the German territory but at Waddington, we reach a hundred trips and I've got some classified photographs of the bombers, y'know and 'S' for Sugar, obviously there'd been more than one crew that did the hundred trips but that particular 'S' for Sugar did the hundredth trip [sic].
BW: Did you ever - you were obviously good friends with the pilots and crew - did you ever get shown around a Lancaster, did you ever get inside one?
AT: Yes, I've been inside one, yes.
BW: Did they ever take you flying on one?
AT: I never took, actually, after the war, the WAAFs, we could go to do a parachute jump and what have you and, it got off the ground and then I think there was an incident and the WAAFs panicked and it stopped. Yes, so we'd that opportunity. But I've obviously been in and I've sat in every seat, I've even been in the bomb aimer's part [chuckles], y'know. So I knew the aircraft very well.
BW: And at the time you were there they were mainly flying Lancasters, did you, did they fly anything else, were there other aircraft that came onto the base that you could go and see?
AT: No. Of course the Spitfire pilots were escorts, you know, for the bombers. A lot of Canadians and Polish people flew the Spitfires but generally, it was strictly Lancasters. I mean, you mentioned the Stirling, you know, I didn't see anything of those. Of course, I was around when there was all the talk about the Dambusters and Barnes Wallis and the bouncing bomb and, I didn't, I actually, I didn't personally meet, I wasn't personally introduced but, Gibson came to the 'drome at one point. So I was around when all this was happening.
BW: So when you heard about the dams raid, what was the atmosphere like, how did you feel when you heard about it?
AT: The Dambusters? Oh it was amazing because there was an awful lot of work went into it, you know, a lot of tests and then for them to actually crack it and flood everything I felt it was amazing. I mean, it was a serious business, I always say it was an experience I wouldn't have liked to have missed but there was a lot of sadness and, you know er and I mean, like its happening in Ukraine now but I mean we flattened Stuttgart and Berlin and y' know, but its all, but that was on targets, wasn't it, it wasn't on civilians but nevertheless, they got involved in it, didn't they? So there were lots of civilians.
BW: Did you hear about these raids when crews came back? What was the atmosphere like in the mess, I mean you'd served some of these guys before they went out. What happened when, you know, the crews perhaps didn't come back?
AT: Well, obviously, there were the sadness, you know, because people had got to...and there's crews, you know and of course, a lot of the...I knew a friend, actually, who flew and, he erm, they got shot down and, for a while I didn't personally get to know whether...anything but I did keep in touch with Peter's parents, he lived in Watford and I remember the number, Bushy Heath, 1428 [laughs]. And it was Peter Kimber and I think, actually they'd a hairdressing business in London and I think, family must still be running that. But for my 21st birthday he bought me a Mason & Pearson hair brush [laughs], which was very expensive for me then. [laughter]. Yeah, erm, no, they'd obviously, they'd, you know, the crews were all gelled together, you know, and, but er... [siren]
BW: Sorry about that. So, yeah, you said the crews were all gelled together.
AT: Yes, yes, and there wasn't a morbid, nothing morbid about it. It was a job, it was a duty and y'know, they got on with it.
BW: Did you...I'm just trying to picture the scene in the mess when the crews come back for their first meal after a raid and obviously you, as catering staff or general staff, you're serving in the mess, you'd be laying the places...
AT: I wouldn't be there when they came in, I'd not necessarily be there but there was no, nothing morbid or...I mean, they weren't throwing a party but y'know, it was a job.
BW; And you'd only find out later, of course, whether...
AT: The crews that had gone missing hadn't got back. You checked in everybody who was coming back, y'know but of course, the others...[unclear].
BW: And you mentioned earlier that fraternising with the aircrew, whether officers or other ranks, wasn't allowed but obviously it went on. Did you or your friends, your friends in particular, end up in serious relationships?
AT: No, no. I had, mine were friendships, y'know, I had some great friendships but, no, I came home and married someone from the village [chuckles]. But, y'know, I enjoyed the time and I had some respect for people and, yeah. I mean Brian Fallon came home but, well, we just, y'know, it was a friendship and we just, I was giving him the opportunity to come and have a civilian life, if you like, at my home.
00:32:38
BW: How did your parents feel about you being in the WAAF and on an operational base?
AT: My Mum was very worried initially but obviously, no objections to the decisions I made. But, obviously, I'd never been away from home, y'know and it was a big thing to do really, wasn't it?
BE: And did you, yourself, get leave, periodically?
AT: Oh yes, yes, it was about every six or eight weeks, leave, yeah, yeah. And yes, y'know, my parents always liked to see me. But my brother, Fred, my youngest brother, the one in Northern Ireland with the Green Howards, he used to write to me and of course he knew everything and the people I were meeting, and what have you and he wrote a letter to my mother and he says, "Mum," he says, "Audrey's life must be mangled something rotten." cos I was always telling him of someone, y'know, a friend, who had gone for a burton, y'know.
BW: And you were talking about Scampton, before we began recording, it had a reputation as a jinx base?
AT: Yes, we used to feel that, the jinx, because, yes, there was always some incident on take-off or something, y'know, we at Waddington always regarded it as a jinx. It was just, just happening there. And of course it was Lancaster bombers then.
BW: And were then any other bases that had a similar reputation or others that had a particularly strong reputation?
AT: No, Scampton was the only name that I remember ever being connected with anything like that, y'know, just felt that there was something...y'know? I never watched anything that weren't always airborne, y'know, they got off and they were away.
BW: And have you ever seen the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight since, have you seen the Lancaster fly, since?
AT: No.
BW: I was just curious if you'd seen it and whether it provoked any particular memories when you saw it fly. But if you've not seen it...
AT: I've only ever seen in parades like, in anything to do with London and armistice and what have you. In fact I, while I've been here, I've got back into art and doing things and for Remembrance Day I did a wall in the dining room and I had the Lancaster bomber and I had poppies coming out of the rear, just for...
BW: And that was just for the painting...
AT: Just for the painting, yes, yeah, yeah. Just for, y'know, for remembering. And we did a lovely wall this time, didn't we, for the armistice.
BW: So, you moved down to Silverstone in Northants, after Waddington and I'm assuming this would be around early '45, cos you said you were demobbed from there.
AT: Yes, it was about August-ish [sic] time, somewhere round about then.
BW: They started flying POWs back from Germany and Continental Europe, did you get to meet any POWs, did you see the Lancasters bringing them back at all?
AT: No, no, I was aware of, y'know, we had prisoners of war, they were actually on the camp, doing jobs, y'know, we had Germans, Italians, erm. I remember those two nationalities specifically, the prisoners were working on the camp.
BW: That's really interesting because I've not heard of that before. I've heard of, obviously, enemy POWs being held in the UK but not that they were working on RAF bases.
AT: Yeah, yeah, well I'm sure I'm right. Yeah.
BW: And what kind of things would they be doing?
AT: Nothing terribly important, they couldn't get themselves into trouble.
BW: Presumably they were just labouring.
AT: General labouring, I'd put it down like that. But I learned a few words of [chuckles] "Bellagambi" [belle gambe] was going round quite a lot.
Ann: Nice legs! [laughter].
AT: Nice legs! [laughter].
BW: That was from the Italian POWs.
AT: The Italians, yes, yeah [chuckles], yeah, yes. No, they were definitely on the camp because I can't imagine where else I'd have met any of them...[chuckling]. Are you learning something, Ann?
Ann: Oh yes, absolutely.
BW: So were you, I'm assuming you must have been at Silverstone when the war ended, when the news came through, what was the atmosphere like at that point?
AT: Well, of course, VE Day, I would be, that was first, wasn't it? And then of course we had Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, didn't we, and that brought it global and America came into it, didn't it? So that was the latest one to go...wasn't it the latest..?
BW: Well, I was thinking about the end of the war and you mentioned VE Day and then there'd be VJ Day in the August, as you were saying.
AT: Yes.
BW: What was the atmosphere like on the base when the news of the war's end came?
AT: Do you know, I don't remember.
BW: I just wondered if you might have had parties or celebrations or anything...
AT: No... no.
BW: Maybe you had extra leave?
AT: No...no...no.
Ann: Do you need your glasses on, Mum, if you're looking at photos? Your reading glasses?
AT: No, that was Matt O'Leary, an Aussie.
BW: So, we were just looking at that photo of the rear gunner but it's inscribed 'All My Love, Ken' but it's not someone who rings a bell with you?
AT: No, ha! I must have been drunk! [laughter]. I don't think so.
Ann: You have had lucid moments, Mum, about him! [laughter]
AT: I do recognise the face but do y'know, that's someone, he escapes me. I know this gentleman here, this is Terry King.
BW: Terry King?
AT: Terry King, yeah. He's the one where he's lent me his jacket when it was cold. I think he was a navigator [laughs].
BW: You wouldn't happen to know which squadron?
AT: It would be 467 or 463.
BW: OK, but he was definitely an Aussie?
AT: Definitely an Aussie.
Ann: And definitely Terry King? It's just remarkable, isn't it, remembering that, Mum. There was Matt O'Leary as well.
AT: Matt, Matt O'Leary. He's there and I think the big photograph...
BW: Which would be this one of seven aircrew in front of a Lancaster.
AT: [Pauses]. Look at the other two, can we?
Ann: Which one could have tempted you to live in Australia, Mum?, Was it Matt O'Leary, you did mention you could have been living in Australia.
AT: Mmm. I thought I had one of Matt with a crew.
BW: Erm.
Ann: I think you were looking at that one, Mum, excuse me, just let me [unclear] him at bottom right, yeah.
BW: So that's the four guys on the bottom right.
AT: That's him there, look and he's an Aussie. It was one weekend and we were dancing in Lincoln and we won a jitterbutty [sic], it wasn't the one where they threw you over the hedge, y'know, it was clever footwork [laughs].
BW: So was it a village dance?
AT: No, it was in the city centre.
BW: OK. And was it, were there a lot of RAF aircrew taking part?
AT: No, it was civilian and a mixture, yeah, yeah. But we cracked it!
BW: And you came top?
AT: We won it, yes, yeah.
BW: So, just as a general question, how easy was it to learn to dance in those days, because it seems everybody did it as a social activity but where did you learn?
AT: I danced with my three bothers from being that high because there was ten years between myself and the eldest and, you know, we used to go to the village dances and I could always go to village dances cos the others would always bring me home safely. So I've danced all my life, really. I love dancing.
BW: And it just happened that you paired up this particular...
AT: Yes, we were friends, y'know and we'd gone into Lincoln to the dance and, that was it.
BW: It was a spur of the moment thing, presumably.
AT: Not a spur of the moment, we'd intended going into Lincoln, which a lot of us did do.
BW: So this photo shows a Lancaster crew, seven guys in front of a Lancaster.
AT: And do you know, I don't know any names on there, I can't...
BW: No, there's none on the back, it just says.
AT: No, these were classified, I got, y'know, the pictures...
BW: But it says 'The crew of S for Sugar'.
AT: S for Sugar, yeah.
BW: So that, presumably, is the crew with 100 missions...
AT: A thousand... with... the missions, the last crew to crew it, presumably. Y'know, to get the hundred trips. There's one of the photographs, it shows quite clearly, doesn't it, that 'no enemy plane will ever...'
BW: Which is this one, there's a crowd in front of the aircraft.
AT: Yeah, yeah, that's, y'know, obviously, other ranks and whoever else was there.
BW: Do you remember that occasion?
AT: No, no, I wasn't among that but that was the... of course...I got the photographs.
BW: This particular one's a Lancaster being, what they called, 'being bombed up' also is S for Sugar.
AT: Yes, yeah.
BW: Did you ever get to see the crews bombing aircraft up?
AT: No, No.
BW; There are a couple of photos here, with friends, which one is you and who are the others?
AT: That's me, in the middle.
BW; OK. And who...?
AT: Do y'know, their name escapes me, I can't remember.
BW: And this one also shows you but this time you are on the right and there are a couple of names on the back. Do you recall those?
AT: I don't really, no, I don't.
BW: No problem.
AT: It was a long time ago and but, you know, we were friends.
BW: Do you know where they were taken? Were they taken during training or it looks like they might have been taken...
AT: Er, it was at Waddington, it was Waddington, it looks like first post thing.
BW: OK, did you keep in touch with your friends after the war at all?
AT: No, no. No, I y'know, got on with life again [laughs].
BW: And we were talking about the Australian crews earlier and obviously Matt was a good friend who you won the competition with, do you know if he survived the war?
AT: I don't know, no.
BW: OK.
AT: Obviously it'd be sometime in that period, y'know, the period, he was there most of the time I was there. But I don't know...Peter, Kimber, when I rang his Mum, she said, y'know, I sort of asked had she'd heard anything and she said, "I've heard this morning, he's been made a prisoner of war." So, obviously he survived and he would get home. That was another, y'know, just friendship.
BW: But you didn't hear anymore from Peter? You didn't hear where he was or what had happened to him?
AT: No. Nothing at all.
BW: How did you feel when you got the news, were you relieved?
AT: I was so pleased that, at least, he was safe cos he could have been blasted into eternity, couldn't he? Yes, I was very pleased and pleased for his Mum.
BW: were the rest of his crew captured?
AT: The concern was Peter, y'know, I was enquiring about him and she told me she was absolutely delighted, yes.
BW: And you were never tempted to move to Australia, having got to know some of these Australians. Did they ever try and tempt you with them?
AT: No, actually, there was one thing: a lot of them they [were] staunch Roman Catholics. Y'know, I thought it was one thing, leaving your country but also, being Church of England and being brought up in that way. But it didn't really, there was no one who meant that much to me, to do that, cos you've got to love and care to take that step, haven't you? And when I met my husband, that was it and I'd just 15 years of super marriage and y'know, short-lived but I didn't work during that period and, we weren't like ships that passed in the night. So, we'd a good life Ann, hadn't we?
Ann: Yes.
AT: And we just had the one daughter.
BW: You said earlier that you'd left the WAAF in August, around August '45.
AT: Yes.
BW: What happened next? You'd worked and had experience in administration, you'd worked at admin in the WAAF, what happened after you left?
AT: I came back...I think I went back to the Co-op, I had a decent position there. Er, do you know, I don't think I did anything then. And then I met Norman and y'know and the next thing was marriage.
BW: When was that, when did you meet?
AT: Er, well, he lived in the same village and I'd been friends with his sister, y'know, she'd been a good friend for many years. But, suddenly that was it. So, you know, obviously, that was after the war and... What year did I get married, Ann, was it '53?
Ann: 53.
AT: 53. And you were born in 56, weren't you? Yeah. But I never worked once I got married, I never worked. And then, of course, my husband died young, at the age of 39. You've spoken about this, have you, Ann?
Ann: Only briefly.
AT?: Yes, yes. It was tragic really, a minor operation and he got an infection in the hospital and the drug they had used damaged a kidney. And I travelled to Leeds with him from Wakefield, left Ann in the care of the nurses at the hospital and he died between Leeds and Wakefield, er Wakefield and Leeds. And I had to wait ten days for a post mortem, because the coroner wasn't happy but at that time the medical profession were very much round each other and it was brought in 'misadventure'. So that was it. So, about six months after that I hadn't the confidence to pick up a telephone. I was devastated, wasn't I, in a mess and you witnessed it, didn't you, unfortunately. When Norman died, Ann had just turned 12 months at grammar school, obviously very clever and y'know, Norman and I had plans and we saw great things in the future and so, in my mind, I just wanted to bring my daughter up, see her through university and I never had to decide [unclear] beyond her age of 18, when she could manage her money. It was a very sad time.
0:12:09
BW: And you just had that short time between, finishing with the WAAF and working in the Co-op where you went back to and then married life.
AT: Yes, yes, and, so when Norman died I had to get my act together and y'know, go out to work. So the first job I took, I got, was with the county council and it's statistics, erm...sorry, and I worked with the county, the fact that I needed to work and keep a roof over our heads, y'know and money, I wasn't averse to any change or anything I was asked to do, so consequently, over the time, I built up a, y'know, a lot of information about various things and then, I got involved with the director, who used to be appointed as a Guardian ad Litem in care related proceedings at the court either relating to children in care y'know, where there was a conflict of interests and er, and er, children who had probably been placed for adoption, and the putative father, y'know, was objecting. So I worked with the director getting reports to the director, it came to me, did all the documentation and I made sure that the social workers got out and saw every respondent that had the right to be seen and heard, regarding those proceedings. So I'd got that experience with the Guardian ad Litem and then, years later, the social service - they amalgamated the children's department and the county and [they] became Social Services and later, in '75, it's a long way ago, in't it? [The 19]75 Act the local authority said that the, all the...the government said that the Local Authorities had to become adoption agencies. So I had all this knowledge about, already, about adoption so I got all the White Papers from HMSO regarding the adoptions and proceedings and what the government expected and I studied it all and I got an interview for the post on the board of directors and I got the job. And one of the directors said, "I wish I knew as much as Audrey about the Children Act," [laughs]. And that's the sort of thing, I was saying, my brothers and I, that's what we've done, we've progressed but it's been our effort, you know. So that was it and I thoroughly enjoyed it cos it was so interesting, y'know we approved prospective adopters and we accepted children for adoption and lots of babies and some of the mums could only tell, all they knew about the father was, they could only tell you the colour. You know, they'd known these were one night stands and things - all very interesting. And of course we arranged placements and y'know, all the time we never had a problem and we got some really good placements. And then after, it came into force at 18 they could have knowledge of the prospective adopters so I did Section 26 counselling, which meant interviewing the mum because we didn't let anyone turn up on anybody's doorstep saying, "You're my Mum."or anything like that. We made sure that they, the natural mother, was happy with the decision that we were making and all that. I worked with professional people, y'know, solicitors, police and everybody, but thoroughly enjoyed it. And got a nice side of it, going to the pediatricians with babies [chuckles] and I did that till I retired and I could have stayed longer but my grandson was, [to Ann] you were pregnant, and I thought, " Oh, Norman's missed so much and I'm not going to miss these babies so I retired at 64. I had the ability to carry on but I didn't.
BW: And, just to, I suppose, come back to the RAF and Bomber Command, you've been to the IBCC at Lincoln, how do you feel, seeing that?
Ann: That was me.
BW: Oh, I beg your pardon.
AT: What was that?
Ann: You know I went down to the International Bomber Command Centre?
AT: Yes, you went, didn't you, yes. I've not been but I'd love to but I don't think I could make it down there.
Ann: No, they've offered to entertain [you] but no.
AT: Yeah but I've read the book. [to Ann] You got the book, didn't you. And I refresh my memory with it. Yes, yeah, it's very, very impressive, very impressive and it's amazing what they've done with the grounds. I was looking for the Waafery, [laughs] but I guess they've demolished it but it was a beautiful building. There was another nice thing in the village, I don't know the name of it, it was a nice pub, where we went, but there was a man in but it was only like a shed but he used to make jam and lemon curd tarts and we used to go and buy [laughs] them from this man in the village. Lovely time really.
BW: So, knowing about the memorial, how do you feel about there being a memorial to the crews of Bomber Command?
AT: I think it's wonderful, I don't think they should ever be forgotten. No. I think it's wonderful, I love the way they've got the walls with all the names, and the gardens, I think it's beautiful. And I think they deserve remembering, y'know, they've given their lives, and young lives.
BW: Cos, the guys were largely only around the same age as you were at the time, weren't they? The chaps in the RAF, the aircrew, they were only around your age.
AT: They were, yes, yes, very young, yes. That was the sad thing, it was so much in life going, y'know.
BW: Whereas you say, I think you summed it up well, you wouldn't have wanted to have missed the experience...
AT: Oh no, no, not for a moment. And I've often thought about it, haven't I?
Ann: Yeah.
AT: Yeah, I did not [unclear] it's an opportunity I wouldn't have missed. It was really good.
Ann: I think it's affected Mum's outlook on so many things because I think, for my Mum's age group and generation, you've got a very rounded, cosmopolitan attitude towards people of all nationalities and I think that's quite impressive.
AT: Hmm.
BW: And through all the things we've talked about this afternoon, are there any other aspects or recollections that you want to add from your time in the WAAF?
AT: No, I don't think so, I think I've covered it. You know I enjoyed the life, enjoyed the company of the people and the various things. Do you know, I'm 99 [unclear] but not very long ago I was, he was speaking to me on the phone and he said, "Mum, do you ever regret any of the decisions you've made in your life?" and I said "No, and I'd make them all again, all the same." Because, since my husband died I had this tunnel vision and it was family and I wanted to see Ann where, y'know [unclear] but then, you see, grandchildren came and then that was another life line and I've just, I had so much happiness with Ann and the children so I've not really wanted anything else. And strangely enough, when I came to this home and it was my decision but we chatted it over, didn't we, because Ann gave me 24/7 care when I came out of hospital, which was a near death experience and she gave that care and I could see what was happening and I, I mean, I had a good life, born into the right family, met the man I loved, enjoyed 15 good years and y'know, I wanted Ann to enjoy her children so I made the decision to come in here. But when, about the same time I met a man, he was upright and mobile but he'd had an accident, his wife had died and he'd scalded himself and he'd come in for respite care, initially and he was a professor of politics but he was such an interesting man I had a friendship with him while he was here, which was about five or six months, wasn't it Ann?
Ann: Yep.
AT: And it was a nice, good friendly relationship but he died just before Christmas but that was nice, y'see. But that's life, isn't it?
BW: Well, I've no other questions and you've answered everything very thoroughly and clearly so, thank you very much for your time.
AT: Yeah, thank you! Cos you been very tolerant and we haven't interrupted you very much, have we?
BW: Not at all.
[Audrey laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Audrey Teasdale
Creator
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Brian Wright
Date
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2022-12-20
Language
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eng
Format
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01:12:25 Audio Recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ATeasdaleA221220, PTeasdaleA22020002, PTeasdaleA22020003, PTeasdaleA22020004, PTeasdaleA22020005
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12-15
1945-08
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Yorkshire
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Audrey left school at 14 and began work as a clerical assistant for a tailoring firm in Leeds, then moving into furniture sales.
Audrey was 23 when the war started and was conscripted on 15 December 1942 electing to join the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. After her kitting out at RAF Innesworth she did some basic training at RAF Morecambe, then posted to RAF Lindholme and eventually to RAF Waddington where she worked as an administrator in the officer's mess. At that time there were four squadrons on the station: 9, 44, 463 and 467 Squadrons.
Audrey's duties in the officer's mess included checking the crews against the battle orders to ensure only crews flying that night got the special pre-flight meal and waiting on tables for VIP dinners, including Wing Commander Nettleton VC. She describes her friendships with the other staff and especially with bomber crews, mostly nice and respectful. Audrey and others would gather on the perimeter track to see them off. She and many others were billeted in a beautiful old building, known as "The Waafery”. Audrey describes her busy social life, dancing at many venues and winning jitterbug competitions. Remembers being called ‘belle gambe’ [beautiful legs] by Italian prisoners of war.
Audrey also describes the events of one night when an enemy fighter followed the aircraft home and strafed the airfield, hitting the incendiary dump, which exploded.
After the war, Audrey eventually worked for the local authority’s adoption service after the tragic death of her husband at a young age.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Andy Fitter
44 Squadron
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
9 Squadron
animal
bombing
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
prisoner of war
RAF Lindholme
RAF Morecambe
RAF Silverstone
RAF Waddington
sport
Stirling
strafing
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/569/8837/AForsythR160214.2.mp3
8c957767bac5297ef7b0921f68b6b9c2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Forsyth, Robert
R Forsyth
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Forsyth, R
Description
An account of the resource
Three Items. An oral history interview with Robert Forsyth (1921 - 2018, 201802 Royal Air Force) and two photographs. He flew 13 operations as a navigator with 156 Pathfinders before the end of the war, Subsequently he served on 35 Squadron and flew on the victory flypast in 1945.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert Forsyth and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JF: It was just at the beginning of the war, the war started and I did this three-month course, and he said if I go down every Saturday morning to Drem airport, and he’ll fly [unclear] and they had down there a Tiger Moth so I went down there on a Saturday afternoon. Drem was just a grass strip field, it wasn’t a major airfield.
I: No. Were you in the Sea Cadets?
RF: I was in the ATC Sea Cadets and I spoke to the pilot and he said, ‘Sure, up you come’. I climbed into this Tiger Moth, it was a two-seater thing you know, a bi-plane.
I: Yes.
RF: And we went off and flew around North Berwick, and I wasn’t interested in flying, we just flew it along, we run onto some cumulous. I can remember going to Harrogate anyway. Then we set off to er ‒, it won’t be in my file because ‒, how did I come to 156 Squadron?
I: You must have gone via an OTU.
JF: Yes.
I: Operational Training Unit?
JF: Yes. OTU at Warboys, I think it was called.
I: Warboys.
JF: And we did Pathfinder navigational training there and then I was sent to 156 Squadron at Upwood, which was an operational squadron doing pathfinding with the squadron over Germany usually, and that was of course an exciting time.
Q: How many ops did you do with 156 Squadron?
JF: I only did about thirteen I think, if I remember right. I marked them in this thing, and then the war came to an end.
I: That would have been late ’44, early ’45?
JF: Yes.
I: So, you did thirteen ops with 156 and then the war finished?
JF: Yes, from various places in Germany.
I: But then you might have been involved in flying back prisoners of war and all this sort of thing?
JF: I had written down the places that were marked. These were the operations; Gelsenkirchen and Potsdam and places like that, which was a long flight Potsdam. Then the war finished, it came to an end, and oh, just before it ended, we were used to fly food to Holland.
I: Operation Manna, yeah.
JF: Manna, that was it, and we had a BBC man with us and I did a report to the BBC for this Manna thing, which was very interesting because it was ‒, the war was ‒, it was the day before the war finished and we were flying at very low level and dropping this food and the people were all out on their roofs waving.
I: Waving, what a wonderful thing that was for the Dutch.
JF: Yes, I remember we got a sweet ration, when you were for so long, I made it into a kind of parachute with my hanky and dropped it out the plane, hoping some boy would get it in Holland [unclear], how nice that was. How much they enjoyed getting it. They were starving of course, the people, so that was that. Then there was an interim when we was in no man’s land.
I: Op Exodus.
JF: Exodus, yeah, and we did that for a wee while and so did flights with the crew to show them what ‒
I: That’s right, ground crews went on these Cook’s Tours.
JF: Cook’s Tours, that was it, these are in this book. We went round, just short flights, to let them see the ‒.
I: Then there was the Goodwood, wasn’t there? There was the raid on Caen?
JF: What?
I: There was the Operation Goodwood. The raid on Caen. You went on that as well, didn’t you?
JF: Yes, we went to quite a few places and then the war was coming to an end and they decided to reduce squadrons to a hundred, ‘cause we were in 156 and this started a very exciting time for me. We were sent to 35 Squadron, the whole unit was sent to 35 Squadron, which is that photograph there, Wing Commander Craig I remember, and we were fiddled about for a while. They got us doing formation flying, which was very difficult with Lancasters.
I: Especially when you were used to flying at night, not formatting or anything.
JF: This was through the day and we went down each day over Harris’s offices and we had to be there at a certain time and had to be in formation, and other squadrons were doing that of course, and all this was to do with a fly past on VE Day in London. And it was rather nerve-racking for a navigator in a big squadron, and you will see photographs of that flight over London. As a result of that success, and apparently, we seemed to be the best at it ‒
I: Oh, that’s a big fly past, isn’t it?
JF: Flying over London. That was on the way to Buckingham Palace on VE Day, I would be about here you see? Rather nerve-racking for the navigator. Although we had to get there at the right time and so on.
I: Right, of course.
JF: So we did that and I’m sure it was as a result of that the RAF got an invitation from America, American Air Force, to celebrate their 39th anniversary of the formation of the American Air Force, which American Army Air Force, which later became the Air Force and that’s ‒, I have a big book there and that was an amazing experience because we ‒, and the whole squadron went and we went all round America, stopped at various ‒.
I: Goodwill tour and showing off the Lancasters.
JF: That’s right, we stopped for a week at various places, we laid the aircraft open for inspection and a great deal of hospitality, and taken round until we got to Los Angeles, where the final ceremony was, and they took us about there and of course, we’d stayed a week at each place which was very interesting.
I: For a young man, it was a tremendous opportunity.
JF: Yes, the hospitality was very good I must say, in fact, I wrote a bit about that and also to an American. I’m a member of the Forsyth clan and it’s quite strong in America, and ‒
I: So, you got involved in all of that.
JF: And amongst the one who writes in their newsletter asked if I’d write something about this tour of America.
I: Oh right.
JF: Along the lines of all the good hospitality we had, so I did that and you’ll find that in there too. That was our squadron. That was the formation flying.
I: So, there you were at the end of the war, when were you actually demobilized and sent back to civvy life?
JF: It was in November of, is that ’46?
I: ’46. November ’46.
JF: ‘Because I remember coming up in a plane to Glasgow and going in that night to the university to see the professor, to see if I could start on the architect’s course.
I: And they said, OK?
JF: Although you had to have so many attendances by Christmas,’ If you do it, well, we’ll take you on all right’, and so I saved a year on others.
I: Oh excellent.
JF: At night and evening classes. The very day I came home, I was in the university.
I: Excellent.
JF: And got started and finally qualified or course as an architect.
I: Right, and that was your career?
JF: That was my RAF career finished. Now after that came the ‒, a Scottish air show, and I went down there to see that and I joined their club.
I: Is that the one at Prestwick?
JF: Yeah, they took part at Prestwick and they had aircraft there, and I’ve got a photograph of one of them too. After that, I joined the official club.
I: Right.
JF: You see? And there.
I: So, you’ve kept up an active interest.
JF: The official RAF Memorial Club and I joined that. That was just my crew.
I: So that was you, so you kept the interest in aviation and developed your career as an architect?
JF: That’s right, I did that ‘til I retired and as an architect ‒, I put it in here, one of the things I was proud of, the school I attended in Glasgow, that happened to be a circular school, a secondary school, a very large secondary school.
I: Smithycroft Secondary School 1968.
JF: Yes, I was very proud of that.
I: It’s a lovely building, very aesthetically pleasing. Is it still extant today?
JF: No. They knocked it down.
I: They knocked it down? Vandals.
JF: No, no [slight laugh].
I: It was getting a bit aged.
JF: Yes.
I: Still, it was pretty avant garde for its time, wasn’t it?
JF: It was, yes, it was well thought of at that time.
I: Excellent. You got an architectural award for that I hope.
JF: I enjoyed doing that and I was in my own profession I became President of the Glasgow Institute of Architects. That was our crew.
I: Yeah, tell me about your crew. At the OTU, at Warboys, sorry where you crewed up, when my uncle crewed up at the 11 OTU at Kinloss, sorry 1902 at Kinloss, they put them all in a big hangar, wireless operators, you know, gunners, pilots, navigators, bomb aimers and they just found people they liked, and they liked the look of them and did well on their course and they formed a crew from there.
JF: Well, that wasn’t what happened at ‒.
I: You were actually posted to Pathfinders?
JF: Posted to 156 Squadron and there was always one or two planes failed to return, it was rather sad really and ‒, or they had a need to piece together crews, which they did, they introduced us to various people and would you like to join the crew of this chap? And I did this.
I: OK, so it was more that you were selected to join certain crews.
JF: We got on well together.
I: It was a similar thing but more concentrated in your case.
JF: And we formed a crew and we stayed as a crew.
I: And were you all an officer crew?
JF: No, the pilot was, of course, I wasn’t at that time, I was a flight sergeant. The engineer was a flight sergeant, actually.
I: And there’s an officer there.
JF: That’s him, and there’s the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator, they were flight sergeants.
I: And you had a dog. Was that the mascot?
JF: That was the pilot’s dog. It was just a dog he had.
I: And they had a lot of dogs, didn’t they? Following Guy Gibson’s example.
JF: [Slight laugh] Yes that’s right so we stayed together as a crew and we did very well, and then we had this dramatic change to go to America and that formed another crew. I had a different pilot then.
I: So, when you came back in November ’46, you were demobbed.
JF: Yes, but the thing about America was, we had to fly to America.
I: Yes, of course, via Gander and all over that route. It would have been the old ferry route, wouldn’t it? It would have been the old air bridge ferry? Prestwick, Gander.
JF: Being navigator, we had to stop at the Azores on the way because of the petrol, and I had to find the Azores, which is a very small island.
I: Gosh.
JF: In the middle of the Atlantic. The Azores has a very high mountain in the middle.
I: Volcanic mountain.
JF: Called Pico and my pilot was getting very nervous about finding this.
I: There’s a lot of distance done and there’s a lot of sea down there and we haven’t found the Azores yet, come on nav.
JF: [Slight laugh] that’s right, didn’t like the look of it, but we got there all right, then to Gander in Newfoundland.
I: Was there, in those days there was no real navigational aids of any sort, a beacon and dead reckoning I suppose
JF: Yes, and using the compass.
I: The sextant.
JF: The sextant.
I: The astrodome a lot.
JF: I’ve got that among these papers, I’ve got the log that I used, filled it in as I used it, you know.
I: That’s fascinating.
JF: If you want to take that away with you.
I: Well, I’ll have a look now.
JF: You know what it is now, I’ve told you.
I: Well, I think that more or less finishes this, so we’ll stop that now.
JF: Right.
I: And I’ll play it back just to make sure it’s taken.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Forsyth
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-14
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AForsythR160214
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:15:17 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Robert was in the Air Training Corps (Sea Cadets). From the Operational Training Unit at RAF Warboys where he did pathfinder navigational training, Robert joined 156 Squadron at RAF Upwood. They did around 13 pathfinding operations, usually over Germany, including Gelsenkirchen and Potsdam. Robert participated in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus, Cook’s Tours, and Operation Goodwill.
His whole unit was sent to 35 Squadron to do formation flying in the Lancasters in preparation for a fly-past on VE Day. They were subsequently invited to America.
Robert demobilised in November 1946.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1945-05-08
1946-11
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--London
Germany
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Potsdam
United States
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
156 Squadron
35 Squadron
aircrew
animal
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
Tiger Moth